From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Aug  4 21:50:47 PDT 1996
Article: 55353 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's forever bursting bubbles
Date: 31 Jul 1996 17:36:04 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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To: rblackmore@juno.com

rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>This is fine and dandy.  A so-called written report with an illegible 
>signature.  This hardly constitutes proof.  What I am more 
>interested in finding out is :  where is the EVIDENCE for these alleged
>crimes?  Where are the mass graves?

What a pity you didn' read the my comments on the source. But I will be
so kind to repeat it to you. This document is an official typewritten
report to the Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS, very high brass indeed.
The signature was illegible as it is the case with most signatures, your
and mine included. This does not make the document unreliable. As I have
mentioned, the document bears all marks of official military paperwork.
This can be seen nicely in the facsimily-print. Additionally I have
added a complete bibliographical annotation so that you can check
out the source at your leisure. So, why is the source unreliable, again?

The position of the mass graves doesn't really matter. It is of no 
relevance to the contents of the source. There is no reason to 
believe that this paper is a fake. If you still think so, put 
something on the table, but stop babbling about things you cannot judge.

Neither you or I will travel to Minsk to find the graves. If anybody 
would be interested in doing so he or she would simply have to find out 
where the estate of the Kommandeur had been and start looking there. 
Well, you could have a try. Go ahead.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Aug  4 21:50:51 PDT 1996
Article: 55357 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: for the last 4 days, there has been no delivery of food
Date: 31 Jul 1996 17:15:57 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>Himmler definitely regarded the Jews, and the Slavs too,
>>as "sub-human". Nizkor actually has now as a recording of 
>>the part of his Posen speech, in which he declares that 
>>the Slavs are "human animals" to be used for forced labor,
>>regardless if it kills them (including women and children)
>>in the process.
>
>What a poliician says in public and what he orders are always two 
>differnent things.  Unless you are innocent to the point of 
>juvenile you know that.The order is on record.  

Dummy, read your sources. This speech was secret and Himmler admonished 
the Gauleiter over and over again to keep their mouth shut about what has 
been said. 

Nele

P.S. Now, that you are playing the historian again, would you care 
commenting about the Wannsee transports to the east in regard to the 
source I have published in a.r.?



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug  5 07:04:52 PDT 1996
Article: 55397 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler praiser Reinhardt and Mahler?
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 21:19:26 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
[...]
>Thanks for the work, but here I translate.
>
>>Wir besprechen Theaterfragen. Der Fuehrer ist sehr interessiert. Er erklaert
>> Erscheinungen wie Mahler oder Max Reinhardt, deren Faehigkeiten und
>> Verdienste er nicht abstreitet. In der Reproduktion vermag der Jude
>>manchmal etwas zu leisten.
>
>We speak about the the Theater.  The Fuhrer is very interested.  He
>explains phenomena like Mahler and Max Reinhardt, who abilities and
>achievements he does not contest.  In the executive arts the Jew often has
>something to contribute.
>
>*executive* in this sense is the word commonly used in English to denote
>*reproduction*, i.e., Arthur Schnabel was a great executant of the
>Beethovenian canon, etc.  So what Hitler is saying, I would submit, is
>that Mahler was greater as a conductor than as a composer, and Reinhardt
>was great at putting on plays. No problem there.  *Mimicry* has nothing to
>do with it.  And he is saying _precisely_ what you noted about Jews being
>great *recreators* of art.

I don't think that your translation is valid here. The Concise Oxford dictionary gives
for "execution" in the sense you used: "Carrying out, performance". This can be
used as you correctly stated to describe the art of an interpreter or conductor. But
in German you would not use "Reproduktion" to express this sense, but "Ausfuehrung".
I am sorry, but your translation of "Reproduktion" as "executive arts" is simply wrong.
Reproduktion here means exactly "copying" - just in the way the copy of a famous
painting by an art student may be technically briliant but is still a copy. And this
is the insult. The art of great directors as well as of all other artists lies in their originality.

Furthermore you can never translate "manchmal" with "often". It means "sometimes",
nothing else. This adverb aggravates only the insult because it depicts the Jewish
culture generally being without any art and Reinhardt and Mahler being great
exceptions.

>As far as Irving's paraphrase goes, it is a paraphrase.  Just exactly
>where is his paraphrase deceptive?

It is deceptive because it is not a paraphrase. I would paraphrase Hitler's comment
as it is delivered by Goebbles this way: "Well, the Jew is an artless barbarian. Mahler and
Reinhardt? Oh, yes, sometimes the Jew is good in copying Aryans, true, but original art?
Never!" How can you possibly describe that as "speaking warmly" of the artists? Either
Irving has known this irregularity, then his honesty has to be questioned, or he hasn't
known it, then his treatment of the source is more than strange.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug  5 15:22:25 PDT 1996
Article: 2057 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mr. Keren also ignores this aspect
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 13:18:50 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>I personally don't know what Leuchter's qualifications are, but it is
>evident he did some test at Auschwitz. Keren says here "Leuchter
>himself states very clearly ..." that there were cyanide traces found
>at Auschwitz, seeming to use Leuchter himself as a reliable source.

Grah! I can't believe it. This great paladine of revisionism hasn't even
_read_ the Leuchter report!

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 12 07:53:45 PDT 1996
Article: 56820 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler praiser Reinhardt and Mahler?
Date: 7 Aug 1996 15:06:15 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>In article <4tqi4t$rp2@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,

[reformatted and clipped]

>But *Ausfuehrung* means *carrying out* -- it does not convey the concept
>of *reproduce* in the sense of *recreate* (erfrischen, wieder 
>erschaffen) that I think is at issue here.  Query: at what point do 
>Reinhardt and Mahler (besides their Jewish background).intersect?  To my 
>mind, in the performing arts.  That explains the connection with 
>*reproduction* in this sense to me.

"Ausfuehrung" and also "Auffuehrung" describe exactly the meaning you 
laid out in your last post - that what a conductor does, for example. 
"Reproduktion" has an entirely different meaning in German, and also in 
English, referring to the Oxford Concise Dictionary and to the Cobild 
Collins Dictionary. Your translation of "execution" (this is the English 
word for "Ausfuehrung") for "Reproduktion" is wrong. There is no need for 
discussion here. Please don't lecture me on my native language.

[..]

>I wish I could easily locate a source praising Furtwangler's productive
>art so that you could see that such descriptions are not by necessity
>pejorative.  In my dictionary *reproduktion* = *reproduction*.  But you
>are implying here that Hitler does not consider Mahler or Reinhardt 
>great or original.  OK.

Unfortunately, I do not know who Furtwangler was. But his comments are 
irrelevant for this source anyway. It's not me who is implying that 
Hitler doesn't consider Mahler or Reinhardt being original, but Goebbles 
in his quoting Hitler. You are right that "reproduction" is the 
translation of "Reproduktion" but you should not be quiet on the 
dictionary definition of "reproduction" too. You won't find the meaning 
you put forward in your last post...

>My regrets!  As a non native speaker I make such substitutions: manch,
>manchmal.

I would think twice to discuss subtle inaccuracies in a translation, when 
I wouldn't even know the difference between "sometimes" and "often" in 
the language in question.

>Now here you are saying that Mahler and Reinhardt were great exceptions,
>while a minute ago you were saying that they were skilled only in
>*copying.*

Not I did say that they were skilled only in copying, but Hitler did. And 
you know that, as everybody will see who looks only 18 lines above. 
Please don't try cheap tricks on me, I'm not Giwer. I was paraphrasing 
Hitler, something this so-called historian Irving was obviously not able 
to do correctly.

>However, now you _are_ picking up a theme, perhaps anti-semitic given 
>the context, about the Jewish culture in general, that it is not 
>original. But here is a question in the discussion of German Jews:  
>where does their German-ness begin, and their Jewish-ness stop, or vice >versa?  Both an anti-semite as well as a philo-semite will find 
>specifically *Jewish* aspects to Mahler.  Furthermore, both Mahler and 
>Reinhardt were best known for their *reproductions* -- Reinhardt with 
>the classical and modern theater, Mahler with his restoring the quality 
>of the Vienna Opera. So I still say that the statement of Hitler is a 
>surprise to me, because I would not expect him to praise Mahler or 
>Reinhardt under any circumstances. 

This is ridiculous, every culture is original. I never said something 
different. Apart from that, all this is completely irrelevant to the 
source-text. But you would be right to be surprised about Hitler's remark 
*if* he had said it this way. Unfortunately it was only one of Irving's 
bungling jobs, so you don't need to be worried.

[...]

>And now what you have done is not paraphrase, but rewrite the quote. 
>Moreover, I think you are making many more leaps in your reasoning than
>either myself or David Irving.  Where does he say *artless barbarian*? 
>*good in copying Aryans*?, *original art? Never!*?

What do you think a paraphrase is, apart from "rewriting the quote"? Yes, 
he says nowhere "barbarians", but I only found that in "Mein Kampf" and 
in "Der Stuermer" and in lots of other national socialist writings. I 
have exaustively elaborated on the question of "copying". "*original art? 
Never!*" is the only possible logical conclusion. If you don't like this 
paraphrase, please offer a different one. But try not to stumble over 
"often/sometimes" again.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 12 07:53:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56849 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'm not a revisionist but here's a thought
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:15:02 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>Path: News.Uni-Marburg.DE!grapool30.rz.uni-frankfurt.de!zeus.rbi.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de!news.dfn.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!uni-paderborn.de!fu-berlin.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)

>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 11:54:57 -0700, Rich Graves  wrote:
>>This is true. The consensus is upwards of ten million, 5-6 million of
>>whom were jews.

>	The consensus of holohuggers that is.

The "revisionists" are, despite what it may look like in this newsgroup and in
Mr. Giwer's mind, such an utterly tiny and unimportant part of the general
discourse on the holocaust, that it is quite appropriate to speak of a consensus.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 12 07:53:47 PDT 1996
Article: 56851 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:01:02 GMT
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Matt  Giwer's ignorance rises its ugly head again:

>On 5 Aug 1996 22:22 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
[...]
>>    This is immaterial as such evidence has been presented by Western
>>    historians.

>	Excuse me, historians were not involved in the trials and there have
>been damned few historians involved in the holocaust.  Given the
>number of publications they are noteworthy by their relative absense.
>	Further not one "historian" or any writer for that matter has
>presented any forensic evidence in any manner that would stand before
>a first year law student.
[...]

What a pity that Mr. Giwer is utterly uninformed again. Why do you think was
the court-verdict in the "Auschwitz-trials" in Germany in the 60s based on
Hans Buchheim's extensive study on the political structure of the SS-state?

I begin to wonder if there is *anything* about which Mr. Giwer is not ignorant...

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 12 09:09:12 PDT 1996
Article: 39145 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:28:24 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!)
>>because somebody called him and asked for your phone number?
>>Sensitive chap.  Why do I think you're lying, Matt?

>Because you did not talk to him after the tube went down his throat to take a
>look at it.  Is that clear enough?

Gosh, I can only marvel at this abundance of logic and reason. Because on thing
happens after the other, there is a causal link between them? Your last science
clast must be fairly long ago...

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 12 09:26:08 PDT 1996
Article: 77252 of alt.conspiracy
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:28:24 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!)
>>because somebody called him and asked for your phone number?
>>Sensitive chap.  Why do I think you're lying, Matt?

>Because you did not talk to him after the tube went down his throat to take a
>look at it.  Is that clear enough?

Gosh, I can only marvel at this abundance of logic and reason. Because on thing
happens after the other, there is a causal link between them? Your last science
clast must be fairly long ago...

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 12 14:38:37 PDT 1996
Article: 56917 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler Re: Free Speech
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:35:24 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>This whole alleged speech of Himmler's at Posen is highly controversial, and, I might add, of
>dubious authenticity.

No, it's not. If you think otherwise, give some arguments, why it should be.

>There is even supposed to be a recording of Himmler making these damning statements about
>ausrottung usw.  I will cut and paste something concerning this speech later IF someone would
>care to see it.

It would be much more interesting if you would write something for yourself, or is your limit
1 single line?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 08:04:57 PDT 1996
Article: 57020 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!hustle.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.clark.net!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: 9 Aug 1996 17:47:30 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 21
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>On 7 Aug 1996 01:43:44 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:
>>Documents abound.  Are they eyewitness testimony?  Yes?  No?  I submit 
>>that, if you state they are, then you have no proof of 99.9% of all of 
>>history.  No?  Prove the following occurred, with physical evidence:


>They were all produced by the Russians in paper and never in person.
>Other than that it was not of interest.   

*** Dumdeedum, lying as we go along...

Any proof for that? Any *physical* evidence perhaps? Been to the
archives anytime and checked out the paper, the ink of the stamps,
the letters of the typewriter? Anything? Nothing of course...

*** Dumdeedum, I am the lying Giwer, dumdeedum ***

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 08:04:58 PDT 1996
Article: 57037 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's got the patent - goofy style
Date: 9 Aug 1996 17:37:28 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4uft0o$3ma@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

[...]

>	Evidently Nizkor doesn't want anyone to have easy access to the
>information, other wise they would have posted it in a reasonable
>manner, in English.

[...]

>	Yup - goofy.

If there's anything "goofy" around here, Mr. Moran, it's your remark. 
Your "revisionists" are always good at nit-picking on single words, and 
wildely speculating about "forgeries", "false translations" and so on. 
Here you have the best of all worlds possible in the limits of the net: a 
scanned version of the original document. And now you complain that you 
cannot read the language and that you you have to _scroll_ in order to 
read it all. Go and get some decent education...

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 08:04:59 PDT 1996
Article: 57051 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bahr testifies from a bar
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:08:26 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 8
Distribution: world
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>Speaking of nonsense, why are you pretending to be "rblackmore"?
>
>Sara

Perhaps he has hear that pseudonyms are a mark of great minds...

:> Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 08:04:59 PDT 1996
Article: 57065 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Meets His Match
Date: 11 Aug 1996 13:08:57 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2578 alt.revisionism:57065

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>On 8 Aug 1996 21:28:07 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

[...]
>Otherwise you are ignored.  
[...]

>You will note that I respond to perhaps one in ten of your posts at
>most.  
>That is all you are worth at best.  

Giwer-tactic: putting fingers in the ears and running away when 
outwitted.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 08:05:00 PDT 1996
Article: 57066 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Behind the times
Date: 11 Aug 1996 13:17:49 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 19
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To: rblackmore@juno.com

rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>Ausrottung does indeed mean to kill or expunge or eradicate or wipe out,
>and refers specifically to mass killings.  For instance, the German 
>inhabitants of Nemmersdorf, men, women, and children, were completely 
>"ausgerottet" by the Soviets, according to the newspapers at the time.  
>I thought this issue was settled a long time ago.  However, Ley's and 
>Streicher's comments are irrelevant. 

What are you trying to say? Please elaborate (in more than 1 line)

>Neither man had any executive power in the Third Reich.  By the way, 
>neither did Goebbels.

Come back when you have read something on the meaning of personal power 
in the 3rd Reich.


Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 08:05:01 PDT 1996
Article: 57086 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The coward McVay
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 18:28:58 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 60
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4un88t$m7d@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	Every so often the coward, Ken McVay, posts some questions.  His
>lackies repeat them pretending they mean something but they are as
>stupid as is McVay.

Hey, I have some more questions for you:

1) Where in national socialist writings did you find that the Nazis were not racist?

2) What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
socialism?

3) What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?

4) When will you answer my posting of an official report to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer
SS which shows *exactly* that the evacuations to the east were only for the purpose of
mass slaughter. This sufficiantly disproves your inane interpretation of the Wannsee-document
Till now, you have remaindes suspiciously quiet about that. Well?

>	Now if the coward wishes to change his killfile and read and respond
>to my answers to his questions the coward will have come out of his
>shell.

I do not have a killfile on anybody, and I have been waiting for your answers a fairly long
time. Therefore, as long as the others are searching for your non-existing answers you could
spend you time with answering my questions. But you, obviously to cowardish to confront me
 with arguments, will probably only take refuge in childish name-calling. Not that I care much.
 It would be under my dignity to follow legal procedures to answer your calling my parents
 "murders" [sic!]

>	But as with all holohuggers, he is a lying piece of shit who has no
>right to claim he is posting is public as he has not the teats to face
>her accusers.

Mr. Giwer probably uses large quantities of tissue to clean his keyboard from foam. I
would never have thought that there is a written equivalent of stuttering in blind
rage, but here I stand flabberghasted.

>	She is a worthless piece of trash and of no value to any discussion
>here as she hides behind a killfile.

>	She is a coward, an animal, a female animal.  The lowest of the low in
>an NG such as this.

That must have been a multiple orgasm.

>	IT is not worthy to walk the earth without half the Marine Corp being
>mobilized against it.  (Call your local prosecutor for further
>information but certainly report it soon.  They are lock and lock as I
>type.)

Waaahhh! I will tell this to my big brother, yes I will!


>	McVay is worthless scum who has organized several co-consprirators to
>its bidding.

Ah, the great conspiracy again.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 11:40:43 PDT 1996
Article: 57107 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OLD FAT FOOL SEEKING  YOUNG FAT BROAD
Date: 10 Aug 1996 13:16:23 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

[...]

You're getting boring, Marduk.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 23:12:17 PDT 1996
Article: 57151 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem "Ausrottung" Wahnsinn.
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 18:08:48 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 90
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4un732$m7d@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
[...]
>>	Der Angeklagte Ley erklaerte:  'Wir schwoeren, wir werden
>>	den Kampf nich aufgeben, bis der letzte Jude in Europa
>>	ausgerottet und wirklich tot ist.  Es is nicht genug,
>>	den Juden, den Feind der Menschheit, auzugliedern --
>>	der Jude muss vernichtet werden.'

>I translated this elsewhere.  Please note that after stating *ausgerottet*
>he goes on to say *is really/actually dead* which points to the ambiguity
>of the meaning.  In other words, destruction or stamping out or similar
>meanings, but _not_ extermination.

This is truly and utterly ridiculous. Nobody with the slightest understanding of the
German language will see this "ambiguity". It is a lie, nothing else. Take it from
a native speaker of German.

[..]
>Yes, Hitler wanted to destroy the Jews or the Jewish People, or Judaism.
>No surprise here.  The question is whether you would seriously use
>*exerminate* to translate any verb in the above passage. BTW, you are
>ignoring Irving's comments.

We have discussed Mr. Irvings insufficient knowledge of the German language
in the Reinhardt/Mahler thread. His comments on the subject are dismissable.

>>	. . . Denn der Herr is zornig ueber alle Heiden und
>>	grimmig ueber all ihr Heer.  Er wird die verbannen und
>>	zum Schlachten ueberantworten.  Und iher Erschlagenen
>>	werden hingeworfen werden, dass der Gestank von ihren
>>	Leichnamen aufgehen wird und die Berge von ihrem
>>	Blut fliessen. . . .
>>This section of the book is entitled "Ausrottung aller Nichtjuden."

>Destruction or Annihilation, but not Extermination.

	[...]
	And the slaughtered will be thrown down that the stench
	of their corpses will rise and the mountains rinse from
	their blood...

Obviously "Ausrottung aller Nichtjuden" means "Killing of all non-Jews" here.
So why not "extermination"?

[...]
>>Except, of course, that it has not altered over time (as I pointed out
>>above), and the above three quotations from Nazi sources show that they
>>were using the word in its usual sense.

>But not as *extermination*

Mr. Ehrlich's knowledge of the German language does not reach far enough to
distinguish between the German words for "sometimes" and "often". By no means
is he qualified to make a judgment like this.

[...]
>>How exactly do you propose to annihilate the Jewish People as an entity
>>without killing them?

>Richard, it can be done two ways: by physical destruction (which was
>incomplete) or by destruction of the Jewish community (much more
>complete).  Query:  Would you grant that the Polish Nation was being
>annihilated from the time of the partitions to 1918, by persecution of
>Catholic elements and the gradual Germanization and Russification of all
>institutions?  I would.  And I am not denying that Himmler -- in the next
>paragraph of this speech -- is explicitly talking about killing.  What I
>object to is the use of the word *extermination.*

Massive spreading of fog to distort the point that *no* native speaker of German,
not now, not then, would translate the phrase "alle Juden werden ausgerottet" in
another way than "all Jews are killed".

[...]
>OK.  I just looked in the 1995 Langenscheidt's and it says:  pull up
>(weeds), wipe out, stamp out (figuratives), for the noun, Die Ausrottung,
>it says, wiping out, and then figurative, genocide.  Nothing about
>*extermination* there.

Well, well. "The textfile was killed." Therefore "The Jews were killed" means
"The Jews were evacuated to another place", does it? Read a book about
the metaphoric use of language.

[..]
>Yes, and the use of the English Latinism *exterminate* is an inappropriate
>word to use in translation.

Here I have to agree. In this context, I would translate "ausrotten" as "to slaughter".

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 13 23:12:18 PDT 1996
Article: 57172 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 18:43:36 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4un949$m7d@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References:  <4uehl5$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uesoq$lfe@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uh954$cn9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]

>>I'm astonished to see Mr. Giwer knowing aspects of the german language
>>that hid from me for over thirty years.
>>Wenn Sie behaupten, dass es im Deutschen so etwas wie einen speziellen
>>technischen Ausdruck gaebe, der der 'groessere Teil' heisst und der
>>Meinung sind, dass dieser Ausdruck generell bedeutet, dass man bezug auf
>>irgendeinen Prozess einer exponentiellen Abnahme nimmt, dann sind Sie
>>furchtbar schief gewickelt.
>>Know what I mean?

[...]
>	You degree is in what?

Organization: Zentrum fuer Umweltforschung. Does that mean anything to Mr. Giwer? :))

*** Dumdeedum, I am the lying Giwer, I claim to know everything, but when questioned, I will
run away.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Aug 14 08:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 57265 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wir scheissen auf die Freiheit der Judenrepublik
Date: 13 Aug 1996 10:32:28 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4upljs$ald@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4uil7o$gbi@epimetheus.algonet.se> 
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To: dkeren@world.std.com

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>hebe@algonet.se writes:
>
># I don't know if my english is the best but, I ask all
># revisionists a question: how do you pinheads dismiss texts
># like this, when you're denying the Holocaust? The Holocaust
># happened!
>
>They know that. And they want it to happen again.

Perhaps it should be added that the subject line translates "We shit on 
the liberty in the Jew-republic". They know it, they sympathize, they 
want it to happen again and they have the chuzpe to use the freedom of 
speech as an argument. 

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Aug 14 13:39:06 PDT 1996
Article: 57304 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.flame,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Candlelighting in Germany
Date: 13 Aug 1996 10:11:33 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4upkcl$a41@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <5zJSoa0.ericompladel@delphi.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pcub34.ub.uni-marburg.de
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To: qut@netcom.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.flame:21896 alt.revisionism:57304

qut@netcom.com (Pissed Youth) wrote:

[...]
>Sure, light the candles anytime at night over at the immigrant hostel.  
>Bring big candles, preferably petrol.

[...]

>Therefore, be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be; and
>whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life 
>keep peace with your soul.  With all its sham, drudgery and broken 
>dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Note the discrepancy. The person who calls himself "Pissed Youth" is a 
very poor, certainly intellectually inferior human being who directs his 
or her hate against all human beings who do not fit in his limited 
perspective of the world. His racism is of the usual type: to construct 
a mystical superiority where there is in reality only vacuum.

[posted and emailed]

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Aug 14 21:43:13 PDT 1996
Article: 57404 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem "Ausrottung" Wahnsinn.
Date: 13 Aug 1996 09:47:30 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4upivi$a41@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan Schneider) wrote:

>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>Which _means_ that ausgerottet by itself is _not_ unequivocal.


>Nonsense. Any native german will tell you that it's a rather unequivocal 
>word. The construction ' ausgerottet und wirklich tot' is a cynical way of 
>even trying to emphasize the word 'ausrotten'. Not that there were any 
>need to do so. It only tells you something about the one who feels urged 
>to do so.

I agree.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 15 07:49:53 PDT 1996
Article: 57411 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Peters on Outgassing, 1941 Version
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 22:58:38 GMT
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Mr. Ehrlich amuses me again by attempting to disprove the holocaust. In this
case by falsely translating a German source. The reader will please remember
that the great linguist who tries to dissect the original source has already shown
his extensive knowledge of  the German language by mistaking "manchmal"
(sometimes) for "oft" (often).

ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
[...]
>The crucial text reads as follows:  *In allen Faellen is der wesentlichste
>Teil der Gasentwicklung nach einer order hoechstens nach zwei Stunden
>vollzogen.  (Eine Kontrolle der Rueckstaende zu den entsprechenden Zeiten
>bestaetigte deren restlose Entgasung.)  Peters>Die Verdunstung der Blausauere war also durch die niedrige
>Temperatur nicht erheblich verlangsamt worden.*

>Translating:  *In all cases, the most substantial part of the gas is
>developed after one or at most two hours.  (A control of the residual
>confirmed its complete outgassing after the corresponding times.)  _The
>evaporation of prussic acid was therefore not seriously retarded at low
>temperatures._*

>Now, I take these three sentences to be frustratingly contradictory at
>first glance.

[Snip. Mr. Ehrlich demonstrates nicely his complete ignorance of the German language,
in this case his incapability to deal with the genitive and with compound nouns. He tries to
hide this behind wild speculations on semantic qualities]

>From the above I draw the conclusion that, at low temperatures, the
>outgassing process comes to an end, but that that is not identical to a
>complete evaporation of the HCN.   In other words, small amounts of HCN
>remain locked into the carrier substance due to the low temperatures.

As usual, everything is very simple. Mr. Ehrlich just mistranslated the first sentence,
or to be precise, everything except the last sentence. The passage reads in English:

"In all cases  the major part of the gas-developement is finished after one or at
most two hours. (A control of the residual at the appropriate times confirmed
the complete evaporation of the gas) The evaporation of prussic acid was therefore
not seriously slowed by the low temperatures"

Obviously there is no contradiction. The experiments show that at a low temperature,
after one or perhaps two hours the prussic acid had nearly evaporated. Following tests
show that no prussic acid remains in the carrier-material. Ergo - no slowing down
in low temperatures.

I would strongly recommend Mr. Ehrlich to learn German to avoid making himself
ridiculous in this newsgroup.

Nele

P.S. Just in case, if somebody asks. :))


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 15 13:37:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57518 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens [sic!] of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 16:52:59 GMT
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[Ehrlich wrote:]

>The following is from Peters, bottom of page 60, top of page 61,
>available at the Nizkor site. You can check my translation against that.

With pleasure. Since Mr. Ehrlich's translation is a bit of a
catastrophe, I will use the opportunity to offer my own work, which
has been sent to Jamie McCarthy a couple of days ago, and which
should also appear around here these days:



Exceptional difficulties are connected with the choice of the material
needed for the absorption. Many unsuitable or only partly suitable
suggestions have been made. Thus, for example, the use of absorbing
carbon [? technical term "Aktivkohle"] is not advisable because it
absorbs prussic acid not only mechanically, but adsorbs it under
production of heat. This results later in an according slowing of the
gas production, not to speak of the dangerous [? technical term "Waermetoenung"].
The same is true for charcoal gravel. The use of felt, which is protected
by a patent, is practically impossible because felt remains despite of its
good absorbency much too voluminous and, when pushed or pressed
slightly, tends to set free again the absorbed prussic acid. Also Silicagel
which has been recommended several times is in its customary form not
suitable for the absorption of prussic acid since it forms in combination with
prussic acid a putty-like paste. Recently half-coke [? technical term "Halbkoks"]
has been recommended as carrier-substance, but the absorbency of this
material is much too little, not to speak of its other disadvantages.

Up to now, three porous materials have proofed being suitable, viz. burnt
[? Kieselgur] in granular form ("Diagriess"), an especially voluminously
produced gypsum-substance delivered in cubes ("Erco"), and an extremely
absorbent and chemically perfect material of wood-fibres in the form of
discs. These three products fulfill especially the demand for good absorbency
strong structure, low alcalic quality [? technical term "Alkalität"] and a
low water content.

[Mr. Ehrlich's translation ends here, but for the sake of complecity,
I will add the translation of the rest of the page.]

The wood-fibre material may als be used in a smaller shape, in pieces as
large as lentils, or something like that, but then of course the available
space will not be used as well.

Beside the advantages of absorption, Cyclon features another aspect which
recommends it before other prussic acid agents: the content of irritants
or warning substances which evaporate at the same time as the prussic
acid. The idea to add irritants to prussic acid to facilitate its use
for pest control comes from the wellknown pharmacologist Flury. The
warning substanc is intended to make entering rooms with a harmful
concentration of prussic acid impossible. The irritant required to achieve
this, must from the start be combined in a suitable way with prussic acid
and must evaporate at the same time. There are extraordinarily many
chemical substances which irritate the mucuous membrances (especially the
conjunctiva of the eyes) and the respiratory organs. But the above demand
is only fulfilled by a few. The case of an ideal combination of prussic
acid and an irritant is given, when an irritant is added to the prussic
acid as prior warning which has a higher [? Dampftension] and diffuses
more easily than prussic acid (so to speak precedes the prussic acid
with evaporation), and if it contains a second irritant with a slightly
lesser [? Dampftension] and diffusability as a post-warning, whose
last remnants only evaporate when the concentration of prussic acid is
going down again. The Cyclon-mixture comes fairly close to this ideal.



Mr. Ehrlich's translation would not pass as a coursework in a German-
language course. I will point out the most grave of his mistakes
at the end of this text. I am fully aware that there are grammatical
mistakes and un-idiomatic expressions in my translation, but the reader
should bear in mind that I am, in contrary to Mr. Ehrlich, translating
>from  my native language into a foreign one. I have, also in contrary to
Mr. Ehrlich, a complete understanding of the contents of the text.
Nethertheless, despite his insufficient language knowledge, Mr. Ehrlich
insists on commenting the source in an futile attempt to influence the
discussion in this newsgroup.

[Ehrlich writes:]

>A FEW OBSERVATIONS:

>1) I apologize for thinking that *Saugervermoegens* is a funny word.

I have to agree, "Saugervermoegens" is a funny word, especially because
the German text says "Saugvermoegen". "Saugen" is related to the English
work "to soak" and would literally mean "soakability", if that word
existed in the English language. Quite funny, indeed. But even more funny
is it that a "revisionist" who attempts the close-reading of the source text
and who usually prouds himself to "expose the argumentational holes" of
the "conventionalists", exposes his own lack of thoroughness so obviously in
front of thousands of readers. Particles like "-er" carry very much meaning
in the German language and may change the meaning of a sentence completely.
The words "erbrechen", "zerbrechen", "Verbrechen" and "Gebrechen" mean
"to throw up", "to break", "crime", and "illness". Get the point?

>2) Silicagel forms a paste with prussic acid. How could it have been used?

If Mr. Ehrlich had translated the text correctly, he would have found out
that exactly because of this quality it is dismissed as a suitable material.
It has not been used, as the text precisely says, at least not in its
conventional form.

>3) Erco is defined as a gypsum product. That correspondends to the color
>picture of Zyklon at Nizkor, by the way. But Rudolf says that gypsum has
>a slower release time than straigh *diagreiss*. Someone else will have to
>figure it out.

Mildly interesting, but this remark has nothing to do with this text. The
author only gives Erco, Diagriess and the wood-fibre material as possible
carrier materials without comparing them amongst each other. By no means
does the text collide with Rudolf's statement.

>4) I am even more inclined to think that witnesses who saw blue Zyklon were
>psychologically suggested by the German (cognate in Yiddish) name for
>*prussic acid* = *Blau sauere* = *Blue Acid*

Who knows. But nethertheless this is a completely irrelevant remark too.

I have to conclude that Mr. Ehrlich's post is a typical example of
"revisionist" argumentation. Mr. Ehrlich made three attempts of translating
a German text and three times I had to dismiss them as completely false.
His knowledge may perfectly suffice for everyday purposes in Germany, but it
reaches clearly not far enough for the purposes of critical text analysis.
Mr. Moran and Mr. Giwer attempted to discuss historical topics with me,
Mr. Giwer quite extensively, and those discussions have shown at once that
they have at best a very vague understanding of scholarily terms, methods
or historical events. I am not a scientist but when I follow the threads on
scientific questions, I find that the "revisionist" opinions are demolished
with similar ease there as well. I don't understand that. I would not dare
to comment on a problem of engineering or science because even Giwer could
dissect my contributions easily. I simply don't know enough on that subjects
to open my mouth, and it would be much too embarrasing for me to be proven
false over and over again. But I find that "revisionists" freely comment on
anything, no matter how little they know. On contrary, up till now, I have
found  hardly anything "revisionists" knew anything about, and if they know
something, they are often caught bungling or being dishonest. The only
possible logical conclusion is that they are onldy able to keep up the opinion
that suits their view of the world _because_ they know nothing about the
things they talk about, or because they don't want to know...

Nele
[posted and emailed]

And now, some of Mr. Ehrlich faults in his translation:

- "Empfehlungen" means "suggestions" and not "experiments" as every
dictionary will show. Although Mr. Ehrlich did not know this word, he
could not be bothered with looking it up.

- Mr. Ehrlich leaves out a whole relevant and interesting passage about
the impractibilty of carbon without mentioning why. Too difficult?

- "mehrfach empfohlen" = "recommended several times" not "much more
versatile". Same as above...

- "viel zu gering" = "much too little" not "much too strong". Reminds
me of the sometimes/often problem. It's interesting how the use of an
antonym may change the meaning of a sentence, isn't it?

- "Wassergehalt" = "content of water" not "water retention". Not as
grave as the other mistakes, but obviously again the lack of energy to
look up an unknown word.

I could not be bothered with marking the grammatical mistakes, but Mr.
Ehrlich can be assured that I will watch his futer translation very
carefully and that he should work very thoroughly if he prefers not
to make a fool out of himself.




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 15 13:37:17 PDT 1996
Article: 57575 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Peters/Rascher translation, part 1/2
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 17:04:04 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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[titlepage]

	Collection of Lectures on Chemical-Technical Topics
			founded by F.B. Ahrens
		Edited by Prof. Dr. H. Grossmann-Berlin
			New Series, issue 20



		Prussic Acid Used for Pest Control

				by

			Dr. Gerhard Peters

			    Frankfurt/M.

	1933, Publisher Ferdinand Enke in Stuttgart

[table of Contents]

Introduction.........................................................5

I. The technology of prussic acid and its derivatives................7
   History...........................................................7
   Deposits of prussic acid in free nature...........................8
   The beginnings of cyanide production..............................10
   The developement of the need for cyanide..........................12
   Modern methods of cyanide production..............................13

II. The poisonous effectivity of prussic acid and its derivatives....15

III. Meaning and scale of pest control with prussic acid.............25

IV. The Methods of gassing with prussic acid.........................41
    Production of prussic acid from alkali-cynides...................45
    Methods using liquid prussic acid................................49
    Liquid cyanid-derivatives........................................56
    Liquid prussic acid in absorbed form.............................58
    Cyan-calcium.....................................................65
    production of prussic acid from organic nitrogen compounds.......71

V. Gas protection, detection of gas remnants, cases of poisoning,
   antidotes.........................................................72


[...]                                                                   [58]

4. Liquid prussic acid in absorbed form - Cyclon B

   Looking back, it can be stated that Cyclon A as it is described above
has mainly fulfilled the task of removing the common prejudice against
the use of prussic acid in general and of removing the resulting practical[59]
inhibitions. This was even more easy because first, it was "only" a derivative
of prussic acid and not pure prussic acid and second because it seemed to
lose much of its danger through the combination with a very effective warning
substance. Then, in the time of its greatest recognition, 1920-1923, the
Cyclon-B procudure was developed.

   The time-consuming technical shortcomings of the pot-method, the danger
of the polymerization of liquid prussic acid, the difficulty of
transporting big containers: all this was overcome with absorbing the
liquid prussic acid in a suitable porous carrier material, and with storing
this material in simple but sturdy tin cans. Warning substances and
stabilisators were taken over after the necessary modifications, and thus the
safety experienced with Cyclon A was transferred to Cyclon B.

   Fundamental for the cyclon method (in the following the indication "B"
will be left out for the sake of simplicity) are two principles, as can
also be seen in the text of the patent: the absorption in a carrier material
and the combination of prussic acid and a warning substance, or a
stabilisator, in this carrier material.

   The absorption in a suitable carrier material increases the durability
of prussic acid and therefore the possibility to store it over a long time;
its spreading in countless pores and over the large surface of a porous
material slows polymerisation, even when no stabilisator is added.
Additionally, the porous carrier material facilitates the transport of
prussic acid. It can be shown easily in an experiment that a tin can filled
with liquid prussic acid only will burst open on the ground after a fall of a
couple of meters, while a can filled with an equivalent amount of granular
material soaked with prussic acid, will only suffer big dents: the liquid
in the can does not give way, the granular filling may be compressed easily.
Therefore, instead of strong and heavy metal containers, thin tin cans can be
used for cyclon without danger. Further, the absorption results in a reduction of
danger because even in the case of a damaged container, never a large amount
of liquid leaks out at once, but only relatively small amounts of gas; [60]
cracks, pores and similar faults in the transport-material will result in
loss of prussic acid, which is unpleasent under technical considerations,
but not in accidents. Most importantly, the absorption increases the ease
of use of prussic acid: handling containers with solid contents has more
advantages than handling those with liquid content: granular material can
be spread more easily on surfaces than liquid prussic acid: this is
especially important for the quick evaporation of the gas and for achieving
a fast increase of the gas concentration. The packaging in cans allows
the production of big and small units and therefore allows doseage without
losses.

[photograph]

   Picture 15 shows some commercial cyclon packages containing from
100g CN to 1200g CN, and the usual carrier materials: Kieselgur [? technical
term], "Erco"-cubes, cardboard discs. The strength of the cans shown in
the picture is 0.35 to 0.42mm. They tolerate therefore an inner pressure
of 6-10 atmospheres.

   Exceptional difficulties are connected with the choice of the material
needed for the absorption. Many unsuitable or only partly suitable
suggestions have been made. Thus, for example, the use of absorbing
carbon [? technical term "Aktivkohle"] is not advisable because it
absorbs prussic acid not only mechanically, but adsorbs it under
production of heat. This results later in an according slowing of the  [61]
gas production, not to speak of the dangerous [? technical term
"Waermetoenung"]. The same is true for charcoal gravel. The use of felt,
which is protected by a patent, is practically impossible because felt
remains despite of its good aborbency much too voluminous and, when pushed
or pressed slightly, tends to set free again the absorbed prussic acid.
Also Silicagel which has been recommended several times is in its customary
form not suitable for the apsorption of prussian acid since it forms in
combination with prussic acid a putty-like paste. Recently half-coke
[? technical term "Halbkoks"] has been recommended as carrier-substance,
but the absorbency of this material is much too little, not to speak of
its other disadvantages.

   Up to now, three porous materials have proofed being suitable, viz. burnt
[? Kieselgur] in granular form ("Diagriess"), an especially voluminously
produced gypsum-substance delivered in cubes ("Erco"), and an extremely
absorbent and chemically perfect material of wood-fibres in the form of
discs. These three products fulfill especially the demand for good absorbency
strong structure, low alcalic quality [? technical term "Alkalität"] and a
low water content.

   The wood-fibre material may also be used in a smaller shape, in pieces as
large as lentils, or something like that, but then of course the available
space will not be used as well.

   Beside the advantages of absorption, Cyclon features another aspect which
recommends it before other prussic acid agents: the content of irritants
or warning substances which evaporate at the same time as the prussic
acid. The idea to add irritants to prussic acid to facilitate its use
for pest control comes from the wellknown pharmacologist Flury. The
warning substanc is intended to make entering rooms with a harmful
concentration of prussic acid impossible. The irritant required to achieve
this, must from the start be combined in a suitable way with prussic acid
and must evaporate at the same time. There are extraordinarily many
chemical substances which irritate the mucuous membrances (especially the
conjunctiva of the eyes) and the respiratory organs. But the above demand
is only fulfilled by a few. The case of an ideal combination of prussic
acid and an irritant is given, when an irritant is added to the prussic
acid as prior warning which has a higher [? Dampftension] and diffuses
more easily than prussic acid (so to speak precedes the prussic acid
with evaporation), and if it contains a second irritant with a slightly
lesser [? Dampftension] and diffusability as a post-warning, whose
last remnants only evaporate when the concentration of prussic acid is
going down again. The Cyclon-mixture comes fairly close to this ideal.

   The suitability of irritants for pest control with prussic acid  [62]
has been analysed several times very thoroughly. Partly the results of the
tests made in the war on chemical agents could be used. Lehrecke puts
forward irritation graphs for the differant irritants especially examined
by him, which he correlates with the intoxication graph of prussic acid.
For the determination of the comparative figures which are measured in
seconds the moment was decisive when the effect of the irritant becomes
clear and would force an unprepared person to leave the room in question.

[graph]

1) "Bromessigsaeureethylester"
2) "Chlorcyan"
3) "Chlorkohlensaeureethylester"
4) "Chlor... [?]"
5) "Bromcyan"

Time till poisoning viz. warning effect in minutes

[end graph]

   This is different to the method of testing warefare agents which is applied
for military purposes, and which was intended for the determination of the
moment of unbearability. The following graph shows clearly that the
intensity of irritation is not proportional to the applied concentration of
the  irritant, but that it is dependent from this concentration in an
exponential function (Weber-Fechner law); it can be seen also in the graphs,
in what proportion irritants must be mixed with prussic acid in order to
effect and warn before a poisioning may occur. Fundamental for the  [63]
choice of the irritant is further the relation of the speed of diffusion
of the irritant and the speed of diffusion of prussic acid concerning
insulation, room walls etc. Pohl and Tesch have shown that Chlorpikrin [?
technical term], despite of its much larger molecule, penetrates wall
materials made of pumice concrete, gypsum etc. as quick as prussic acid, so
that the warning effect is not restricted to the room put under gas, but is
also extended to adjacent rooms which may be endangered by penetrating
gas traces.

   The constancy of the cyclon-mixture equals that of absolutely pure
prussic acid. As mentioned before, in cyclon a mechanical stabilisation
through the absorption in a porous material is combined with a chemical
stabilisation through oxal acid or something like that. These two, in their
mechanisms completely different ways of stabilisation allow an exceptionally
long storage time. Practice has shown that cyclon can be stored for several
years without danger, as long as external influence (like abnormally
high temperature or high moisture) do not damage the material of the cans
by corrosion or pressure. Apart from cyanide salts, cyclon is therefore
the only preparation of prussic acid that endures without risk long
transports over land and sea and also storage in tropical regions.

   The tin cans wich serve as container for cyclon are, exactly like normal
tin cans, insulated by curling of the rim and inserting a thin rubber
insulation. Yet, the rubber-material used for this purpose as well as the
strength of the used tin differs from normal tin cans. Since cyclon cans
have a normal inner pressure of 1/4 to 1/2 atmospheric excess pressure,
which may even exceed 1 atmosphere in warm countries, the strength of the
tin must be chosen comparatively strong *). Therefore tins with a strength
of 0.4mm are used.

[footnote]

*) The inner pressure of the cyclon cans is higher than the according
steam tension [? technical term "Dampftension"] of pure prussic acid,
because a certain volume of air is included in the cans as well. A normal
can of cylon has therefore an exceeding inner pressure of 1/2 atmosphere
at 30°C, and a pressure of 1 atmosphere at 40°C. At 60°C, the inner
pressure is estimately 2 1/2 atmospheres.

[end footnote]

   On the other hand, this makes sealing the can considerably more  [64]
difficult, since absolute gas-tightness is required. But the examinations
of cyclon-packages by the authorities of the different countries (in Germany
through the Chemisch-Technische Reichsanstalt) have shown that the
procedures completely fulfill the requirements which are very important
regarding the special danger of prussic acid. Difficulties were found only
in the use of a very aggressive irritant, Chlorpikrin [? technical term],
which under unfavourable circumstances corrodes insulation and tin material.
But this problem has been disposed of by the use of a tin-material resistent
against corrosion with a special inner cover.

   The application of cyclon is exceptionally easy. Either the cans can be
opened and emptied in the rooms to be gassed, by gassing personnel protected
by gas masks and using special pick-hammers. or the cans can be opened
outside of buildings in free air with a special device. In large buildings,
only the second method is advisable. Then, after opening, the cans are
sealed again at once with rubber caps and are distributed in the building
which is to be gassed. (Mills, barracks, etc.) The gassing personell has
to remove the rubber caps under the protection of gas masks and to spread
the contents of the can on a proper underlay.

   After pouring out, the gas evaporation out of the cyclon starts at once
with great violence. The thinner the layer of the spreaded carrier material
is, the faster is the gas production. By choosing the layer according to
the nature of the pest, it is possible to let the maimum of the gas production
develope slow or fast. Normally, the material is spread in a layer of 1/2
to 1cm, so that the major part of the prussic acid is already evaporated
after 30 minutes at room temperature.                             [65]

   In Germany, where the cyclon method has found increasing application
since 1922, a granular or little-pieced material is preferred (Kieselgur,
"Erco") because of the better scattering and consequentle the better
evaporation. In America, people have thought that the method could be
facilitated by the use of a disc-like cardboard material. The cyclon-
"discoids" may use the volume of the can in a better way, but on the other
hand they cannot be scattered as easily as a granular material.
Nethertheless, German producers have decided to deliver such disc-like
material for those purposes where special technical reasons let its
application seem advantageous. All carrier-materials share the feature that
prussic acid evaporates completely from them so that they can be considered
non-poisonous after the completed gassing and after ventilation.

   The cyclon method proved to be so efficient in all areas of pest control
that it suggested itself to try it for tree gassing. Using special devices
which allowed the extraction of measured amounts of prussic acid out of
large cans, cyclon was applied for tree gassing to considerable extends in
Spain, Egypt, South Africa, and Australia. But it did not catch on for this
purpose. In hot temperature, the high gass pressure in the cans resulted
often in losses an irritation of the workers who did the filling; the
gas spread insufficiently under the tent; and finally the cyclon that fell
to the earth let evaporate too much prussic acid into the ground, which led
to root damage. All this let the use of cyclon for tree-gassing seem
impractible in the long run.

[...]




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 15 15:49:25 PDT 1996
Article: 57584 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 21:22:10 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>It's kind of funny that Mr.Keren writing in English, refers
>people to a source that is written in German.
                            ====================

Hint, hint... Go an learn some languages. The worlds seems to
become infinetly richer - or is language learning Jewish?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 16 07:51:34 PDT 1996
Article: 57637 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler praiser Reinhardt and Mahler?
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 16:34:17 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
[I wrote]
>>Unfortunately, I do not know who Furtwangler was. But his comments are
>>irrelevant for this source anyway.

>OK, so I won't lecture you about your native culture, either.

Could it be that we are a bit angry because we lost an argument? ;)

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 16 07:51:35 PDT 1996
Article: 57664 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler praiser Reinhardt and Mahler?
Date: 11 Aug 1996 12:34:34 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4ukk0q$dhs@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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 wrote:

[...]

>Mahler und Reinhardt umzudeuten. Ihr verehrte Genosse Adolf
>beherrschte die deutsche Sprache wie wenig andere. Das

Dem kann ich nun wirklich nicht zustimmen. Hitlers Deutsch war alles 
andere als elegant, seine Schriftsprache war voller katastrophaler 
grammatikalischer Fehler und falsch gebrauchter idiomatischer Ausdrücke - 
sein deutsch war, mit einem Wort, ausgesprochen plump. Die Ursuche für 
seine durchschlagenden Erfolge als Redner sind auf anderer Ebene zu 
suchen.

>war eine seiner Staerken. Aber es benoetigt keine dichterliche
>Veranlagung fuer Sprache, um seine eigentliche Meinung
>aus seinen Worten auszulesen. Er hat eine vernichtende
>Entwuerdigung ueber seine Lippen gebracht. Die Weltberuehmtheit
>von Mahler und Reinhardt war unbestreitbar und unuebersehbar. 
>Ihr Genosse Adolf konnte ihre Leistungen nur dadurch schmaelern,
>dass er jede Hauch von Originalitaet und Kreativitaet, was den
>Kern eines echten Kuenstler bilden, absprach. Ein Affe oder
>ein Papagei kann nachmachen, aber nicht schaffen.


Richtig. Mehr gibt es dazu nicht zu sagen.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 16 13:30:47 PDT 1996
Article: 57770 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 21:46:34 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>Danny boy, the pipes are callin you.  Throwing in children, a terrible
>cry.  Heat given off when there is no source of heat.
>
>How can I thank you for another example of holohuggers idiocy?  I
>never can.

Another idiocy from the Giwer-clown: Is he trying to say that it is not possible to throw
children? Although he is a confirmed dyslexic, one should ask anyway: where in
the text did he find that there was _no_ heat source (e.g. the body-temperature of
many many people?)

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 19 16:03:31 PDT 1996
Article: 57979 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem "Ausrottung" Wahnsinn.
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 16:38:29 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
[...]
>If I make a mistake with your language, so be it.  I do not bother you
>when your English is less than perfect.  But here we are not talking about
>the meaning of *ausrotten*, we are talking about the meaning of
>*extermination.*

WHAT!?  Who was it again, who brought up the silly idea that "ein Volk ausrotten"
meant something different than "to kill a people".

> As you say, *please do not lecture me on my native
>language.*

I don't lecture you on your native language. You are trying to put forward a cynical,
cruel, and false argument by mistranslating German sources. If you don't like that
I point out your errors publically then I would suggest that you stop these attempts.
It's fine to make mistakes when learning a language and then you would have my full
sympathy and help. But when you abuse your language knowledge to mislead others
you know even less German, you cannot expect any kindness from me.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 19 16:03:32 PDT 1996
Article: 58065 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 16:49:47 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>the text for the diagreiss is *gebrannte kieselgur in koerniger Form*, and
>I just read that off as *roasted kielseguhr in kernel form*, because
>*burnt* for *gebrannt* makes no sense to me, and that in turn determined
>my translation of *koerniger* as *kernel* rather than *granular* since the
>root with *corn* is the same.  Maybe this is where the text started
>reminding me of popcorn rather than sex.

Mr. Ehrlich's translation of "roasted kieselgur" is correct. The author of the
text obviously differentiates between silicagel and kieselgur.

Nele






From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 19 16:03:32 PDT 1996
Article: 58087 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 16:59:32 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

[...]
>>By the way, would you be so klind to answer my question I asked you in
>>german? I tried to arrange it inm a way, that shouldn't be considered too
>>hard for somebody with reasonable skills in german. I you think it too
>>hard to answer it in german, write in english. More people will be
>>convinced about your knowledge then.

>	I would rather not get into that.  It has been too long.

Gaaah! :))

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 19 16:03:33 PDT 1996
Article: 58277 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Peters on Outgassing, 1941 Version
Date: 17 Aug 1996 10:59:26 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4v48me$mm2@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>[...]
>>>Translating:  *In all cases, the most substantial part of the gas is
>>>developed after one or at most two hours.  (A control of the residual
>>>confirmed its complete outgassing after the corresponding times.)  >>>_The evaporation of prussic acid was therefore not seriously retarded 
>>>at low temperatures._*

>	Sounds pretty close to what Erhlich said in the first place.

Because it IS what Ehrlich said in the first place, you idiot. :>

[blabla snipped]

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 19 21:09:55 PDT 1996
Article: 58297 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 16:42:33 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 11
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>>  	And it was instantly recognized as such by my father.  Perhaps the
>>  years of police work let him smell a liar from the beginning?

>	He must really have to hold his nose when he's around you.

It seems so. Didn't Mr. Giwer tell us that his father is a marine?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 20 07:25:28 PDT 1996
Article: 58322 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!news.dfci.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!rutgers!engr.orst.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wir scheissen auf die Freiheit der Judenrepublik
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 17:00:17 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4usbqh$buh@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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Greg Raven  wrote:
>There are no plans or orders to exterminate Jews. On the other hand,
>there are a great many documents attesting to the Nazis' attempts to
>resettle the Jews outside of Europe. All known Nazi policies and actions
>clearly show that they were at least as concerned about getting Jews out
>of Europe as, say, the Zionists.

Yes, like the Wannsee document for example. And what these transports
to the east really meant can be found in documents like the one I posted
the other day, the report to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS. There we
could see that pits were excavated at one day, transports with thousands of
Jews from the Reich arrived the second day, and were "dealt with". The
day after, the SS-forces had to do extensive cleaning of weapons. Does that
mean anything to you? I mean, honestly?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 20 07:25:29 PDT 1996
Article: 58422 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Peters on Outgassing, 1941 Version
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 17:52:40 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 70
Distribution: world
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[edited]
ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
[I wrote]
>>"In all cases  the major part of the gas-developement is finished after one
>>or at most two hours. (A control of the residual at the appropriate times
>>confirmed the complete evaporation of the gas) The evaporation of prussic
>>acid was therefore not seriously slowed by the low temperatures"

>>Obviously there is no contradiction. The experiments show that at a low
>temperature, after one or perhaps two hours the prussic acid had nearly
>>evaporated. Following tests show that no prussic acid remains in the
>>carrier-material. Ergo - no slowing down in low temperatures.

[...]

>Now you are fudging here, Nele. *Nearly evaporated* is not the same as
>*completely outgassed.* Or, if it is, then you are _accepting_ not only my
>translation but my analysis as well.

Schnickschnack. Of course "nearly evaporated" isn't the same as "completely
outgassed". Where did I say the latter? Stop spreading fog. Peters says
after two hourse the gas is nearly evaporated, later it is completely
evaporated. Different times - different things.

>And, btw, I am not trying to disprove the Holocaust.

Hear, hear!

>What I am trying to do is make some sense of the Peters article.

And WHY do you do that? The usual "revisionist" search of historical
truth?

>Exactly where do our translations diverge, anyway?

I will it explain it to you. The source says:

"In allen Faellen is der wesentlichste Teil der Gasentwicklung nach einer
oder hoechstens nach zwei Stunden vollzogen."

You translated:

"In all cases, the most substantial part of the gas is developed after one
or at most two hours."

You mistranslated "Gasentwicklung" (gas developement) with "gas". The original
word describes a process, your translation a material. When you say "the major
part of a certain process is finished after 1-2 hours", what does it imply? That the
process stops after exactly this time? Certainly not. It implies that the process carries
on.  But because you mistranslated this word you arrived at this conclusion:

[Ehrlich]
>>The first sentence says the most substantial part (*wesentlichste* would
>>be more literally *the most essential*) but it does not say *complete.*
>>But the second sentence implies that after one or two hours the outgassing is completed.

Although your translated sentence  _may_ have the meaning you projected in the following
passages, your argument still is a bit shaky, to say the least. And as a rule for a future, since
you know that your German is not the best, when you find contradictions in a text you
translated, first check your translation.

>The only point that I note is that you have taken *appropriate*  for
>*entsprechenden* which I took as a referent to the one or two hours time.
>Do you agree with this?

No. You should read more closely.

[Unrelated comments that do not save the wrong translation snipped]

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 20 07:25:30 PDT 1996
Article: 58423 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ehrlich translating: Over 20 mistakes in 6 simple sentences (was RE: Saugervermoegens...)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 17:37:09 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 194
Distribution: world
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

[...]

>It's nice to see that, in spite of all of the jumping up and down that
>ensues beyond this point, that your translation is so close to mine.  It

Very close? Well, let's have a closer look:

[source]
Besondere Schwierigkeiten sind mit der Wahl des für die Aufsaugung
erforderlichen Materials verbunden.
[Ehrlich]
Particular difficulties are involved with the choice of material
for their absorbency (Aufsaugung).

1. "absorbency" means "Saugfaehigkeit" not "Aufsaugung". The latter is
   "absorption".
2. Why couldn't you be bothered with translating "fuer...erforderlich"?
3. If you had correctly identified these words as part of the
   nounphrase which forms the genitive object of "die Wahl" then you
   would have found that "absorption" would fit and wouldn't have to
   "change the words" a bit. In this case you were lucky, because your
   sentence is the logical coincidently conclusion of the German +
   sentence, but still it's not the translation.

[source]
Es sind viele unbrauchbare oder nur beschraenkt brauchbare Vorschlaege
gemacht worden. So ist z.B. die Verwendung von Aktivkohle nicht ratsam,
weil diese die Blausaeure nicht nur mechanisch aufnimmt, sondern unter
Waermebildung adsorbiert; dies fuehrt abgesehen von der gefaehrlichen
Waermetoenung, spaeter zu einer entsprechenden Hemmung der Gasabgabe.
Das gleiche gilt auch von Holzkohlegriess.
[Ehrlich]
In this regard, many useless or only slightly useful experiments
were made. ....

4. Where does "in this regard" come from? Don't add words because it
   suits your aesthetic feelings.
5. "experiments" means "Experimente, not "Vorschlaege". This is
   "suggestions". If you happen not to know a word, do not guess but
   look it up. In this case, because your false translation blurs the
   meaning of the following passage.
6. The next three sentences miss completely. It would have been nice if
   you had added the extent of your ellipsis already in your translation
   and not later when questioned by me.

[source]
Die durch Patent geschuetzte Verwendung von Filz erscheint praktisch
ausgeschlossen, weil Filz trotz seines guten Saugvermoegens viel zu
voluminoes bleibt und dazu neigt, bei leichtem Druck die aufgenommene
Blausaeuremenge teilweise wieder abzugeben.
[Ehrlich]
The patented process of using felt appears practically over, since
felt, in spite of its good sucking ability (Saugervermoegens) remains
too voluminous and and therefore is inclined to give off part of the
prussic acid with a light squeeze or blow.

7. "patentiert" is not exactly the same as "durch Patent geschuetzt", in
   the latter case the focus lies more on the protection by law, in the
   first phrase on the legal act. But the translation is still tolerable.
8. "appears practically over" Is this idiomatic and does it mean
   precicesly "is practically ruled out/excluded"? I don't know. But you
   would certainly have had less problems if you had looked up
   "ausschliessen".
9. When you really _must_ guess, try at least to make an informed guess
   and think of "to soak up" when reading "saugen". I really wonder
   whether one should consider your choice as a Freudian failure ;)
10. Why didn't you translate "wieder"?
11. Why did you add "or blow"? It's not in the text.

[source]
Auch das mehrfach empfohlene Silicagel ist in der handelsueblichen Form
fuer die Zwecke der Blausaeureaufsaugung nicht geeignet, da es mit
Blausaeure eine kittartige Masse bildet.
[Ehrlich]
Also the much more versatile (mehrfach empfohlene) Silica gel, in its
normal trade form, is not suitable as a medium for absorbing prussic
acid because it forms a sticky paste with it (mit Blausauere eine
kittartige Paste bildet).

12. "mehrfach" does NOT mean "much more" but "several times". Again, when
   you do not know a word, look it up. Do not guess.
13. "empfohlen" means "recommended", not "versatile". When you do not know
   a word, look it up. Do not guess.
14. "fuer die Zwecke" means "for the purpose" not "as a medium". When you
   do not know a word, look it up. DO NOT GUESS.

[source]
Neuerdings wurde Halbkoks als Traegermaterial vorgeschlagen, jedoch ist
die Saugfaehigkeit dieses Materials viel zu gering, von dessen anderen
Nachteilen ganz abgesehen.
[Ehrlich]
Recently, Half coke (Halbkoks) was put forth as a carrier material,
but the sucking ability (Saugfahigkeit) of this material is much
too strong....

15. "viel zu gering" does not mean "much too strong" but "much too little".
   This is really gross because "gering" is, exactly like "little" in
   English, a very basic word. You really should know such words if you
   try to use your knowledge of German in a public discussion. Anyway,
   when you do not know a word, look it up. Do not guess.
16. the sentence after "von dessen ... abgesehen" is missing, although
   the phrase can be found in every dictionary, as well as "Nachteil"

[source]
Bewaehrt haben sich bis jetzt dreierlei poroese Materialien, naemlich
gebrannte Kieselgur in koerniger Form ("Diagriess"), ein besonders
voluminoes hergestelltes Gipsprodukt in Wuerfelform und ein aeusserst
saugfaehiges und chemisch einwandfreies Holzfasermaterial in Scheibenform.
[Ehrlich]
Therefore there are now three porous materials, namely roasted kieselguhr
in kernel form (Diagreiss), a special gypsum product prepared in cube form
(Erco), and a particularly absorbent and chemically faultless wood product
in disc form.

17. "bewaehrt" does not mean "therefore" but "proven reliable" etc. When
  you do not know a word, look it up. Do not guess.
18. "bis jetzt" is left out. Why?
19. You translated "gebrannte" with "roasted". I agreed with you elsewhere,
   but I did re-check it in the meantime and found that my translation is
   better. Peters describes a material produced in a similar way as
   burnt clay or burnt chalk.
20. "koernig". Probably you looked at the photographs and found pieces
   in the size of hazelnuts. I assume this has led you to the translation
   "kernel". Indeed "Korn" and "Kern" are related, but "koernig" comes
   from "das Korn" which is "the grain". The adjective describes the
   concept of being like little pieces the size of grains. Therefore is,
   as your dictionary will tell you, "granular" the better translation.
21. "besonders  voluminoes hergestellt", the whole adverbial phrase is
   missing and replaced by the more simple but false adjective "special".
22. "particularly" is not strong enough for "aeusserst". Use the way it
   is translated in every dictionary, use "extremely".

[source]
Diese drei Produkte erfuellen vor allem die Forderung nach guter
Saugfaehigkeit, fester Struktur, niedriger Alkalitaet und niedrigem
Wassergehalt.
[Ehrlich]
These three products combine good absorbency, strong structure, low
alkalinity, and and low water retention (Wassergehalt).

23. "erfuellen die Forderung nach" is completely left out and replaced
   by a meagre "combine"
24. "Wassergehalt" is "water content" not "water retention". If you
   don't know a word, LOOK IT UP, DON'T GUESS.

Let's see, you tried to translate 10 German sentences. They are not very
difficult, not a text by Thomas Mann, not even real academic style. (The
German academic style is quite poisonous as Gord McFee will know :) ) You
left out 3 sentences and a subordinate clause, that's fairly accurately
a third. In the remaining 6 1/2 sentences you managed to place 24 mistakes
and inaccuracies. NOT A SINGLE SENTENCE IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY. Some of
these mistakes are very grave grammatical errors which reflect that you
insufficiently know the German case system and have problems with
participles in noun phrases. But the majority of mistakes are semantic
errors which you could have avoided, if you wouldn't have been to lazy
to use a dictionary. Your many typos hint at that you hacked in your
translation too quickly and did not check it thoroughly. Well, if I
were a lecturer of German, how should I, in your opinion, mark your
translation?

But that's only the linguistic aspect and, as I think, of minor importance.
Much more serious is that you presented your translation as a serious
contribution for the discussion of the holocaust to an audience which in
the majority does not understand German. Hadn't I commented on your
translation, probably a discussion would have started on the water
retention of Kieselgur, or why the absorbency of "Halbkoks" is too strong,
or whatever you would have made out of your "translation". You would have
started speculating and assuming and nit-picking on single words the
same way you did it with Goebbles' diary. And now you possess the
impertinence to claim that your translation into your own language, which
should be quite trivial since you already know the idiomatic expressions
you want to write down, does not differ considerably from mine. God knows
whether you are fluent enough in German to order an Eisbein with Sauerkraut
but you argue with several native speakers and graduates about inane claims
which cannot be supported by a single dictionary. If we need an example for
chuzpah then here it is.

Incompetent babbling like this is, where the so-called "argumentational
holes" of the "holohuggers" come from. You are an expert of German the
same way as Leuchter is an expert in gassing technology. Both of you
have a very inferior knowledge of the subject and the very big audacity
to produce yourselves as the "specialists". It's always the same with
the "revisionists". Why do they find contradictions? Because they don't
know enough. Because they don't read thoroughly. Because they do not think
but speculate and guess and make up whatever they need.

Tantum loquiaentiae, parum sapientiae.

Nele





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 20 10:55:24 PDT 1996
Article: 58456 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 22:24:08 GMT
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And now the guy who has forgotten most of his German really puts
his foot into it.

Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>>   I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the EXTERMINATION* of the
>>   Jewish PEOPLE*. This is one of those things that is easily said: "the
>>  Jewish PEOPLE* are being EXTERMINATED*," says every Party member,
>>   "quite true, it's part of our plans, the ELIMINATION* of the Jews,
>>   EXTERMINATION*, we're doing it."

>>   Ich meine jetzt die Judenevakuierung, die AUSROTTUNG* des juedischen
>>   VOLKES*.  Es gehoert zu den Dingen, die man leicht ausspricht. - "Das
>>   juedische VOLK* wird AUSGEROTTET*", sagt ein jeder Parteigenosse,
>>   "ganz klar, steht in unserem Programm, AUSSCHALTUNG* der Juden,
>>   AUSROTTUNG*, machen wir."

>>   (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145)

[...]

>Some additional comments are in order before I give you MY translation
>of this paragraph. My intention here is to give you the best possible
>reflection of the  original underlying feeling that the speaker was
>trying to convey. This is obviously never a perfect process --

Aha!?

>however, I know that I can come pretty close.

>Also, German and English as languages have both changed since these
>words were spoken. It is therefore not really appropriate to use
>modern German-English dictionaries without some significant
>reservation. Indeed it has become obvious to me that the Second World
>War actually resulted in certain changes to the way political language
>was interpreted in the German speaking world. This served another
>important propaganda function in the Allied deNazification campaign.
>This shift is evident here too.

This may be true in one or the other aspect. Yet the change of German
over the last decades is by no means so fundamental as Mr. Beaulieu would
like it be. The passage quoted above does not sound ancient nor awkward
to a modern day German. Not one of the used words underwent a semantic
change, expect perhaps the word "Parteigenosse" which has nowadays the
bitter taste of Nazi dictatorship.

>An interesting realization is that in the modern dictionaries the
>translations used above are, for the most part, tagged on at the end
>of the definitions as special interpretations of certain figurative
>language. ...indeed very interesting!

Very interesting indeed. My Cobild-Collins dictionary (one of the better
dictionaries on the market) says to "ausrotten":

	vt sep: to wipe out; Wanzen etc.: to destroy; Tiere, *Volk*
	auch: to exterminate; Religion, Ideen auch: to stamp out, to
	eradicate.

No mentioning of "special interpretations or certain figurative language"...
What Mr. Beaulieu finds so surprising is a phenomenon every linguist, and
in fact every educated person is aquainted with. Certain words can be
used productively to describe other meanings, using the connotations of
their original meaning: in some disk operating systems the command "kill"
is used to erase a file, using the original connotation of "to kill" to
indicate that the file is removed from the disk. Yet this does not change
the original meaning of "to kill". Therefore, "ein Idee ausrotten" does
not change the meaning of "ein Volk ausrotten", no manner how much
"revisionists" jump up and down. The precise meaning of the word is defined
by the context, and when Himmler speaks of "die Juden ausrotten", it
is clear that he means to kill them.

>I would challenge any of you to check up on what I'm saying.

I just did. Tough luck for you...

>Now, I was raised here in this country, but I learned German (my first
>language) from the native German generations that grew up before and
>to some extent during the Third Reich. So this type of translation
>comes incredibly easy to me. It's the modern German "newspeak" that I
>sometimes have some difficulty with.

Hahaha, watt hebbt wi lacht!

[...]

>Repeating what I _hope_ is an accurate German transcription from
>Jeremy (again capitalization was my doing):

So you are telling us that you are not sure whether you are able
to *copy* a text correctly? And yet you want to be taken seriously?

>>   Ich meine jetzt die Judenevakuierung, die AUSROTTUNG* des juedischen
>>   VOLKES*.  Es gehoert zu den Dingen, die man leicht ausspricht. - "Das
>>   juedische VOLK* wird AUSGEROTTET*", sagt ein jeder Parteigenosse,
>>   "ganz klar, steht in unserem Programm, AUSSCHALTUNG* der Juden,
>>   AUSROTTUNG*, machen wir."

>   I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the ROOTING OUT (1) of
>   the Jewish PEOPLE (2) as an ETHNIC NATION. This is one of those
>   things that is easily said: "the Jewish NATION is being ROOTED
>   OUT*," says every Party comrade, "it's quite clear (3), it's in our
>   program, SHUTTING the Jews DOWN and OUT (4), ROOTING them OUT,
>   that's what we're doing."

Oh my, caught falsifying again. As I have said above, a word receives
its precise meaning from its context. Let's look at the following
phrases:

"die Ausrottung des juedischen Volkes"
"the rooting out of the Jewish people as an ethnic nation"

In his translation Beaulieu changes the context of the word "ausrotten"
dramatically, and therfore this term undergoes an appropriate change in
meaning:

Those knowing German will see that "as an ethnic nation" pops out of the
empty void and is added mysteriously to the English phrase. This little
particle is of great importance because it changes the meaning of
"ausrotten" considerably. While the original sentence doesn't limit
the possible meanings of "ausrotten" in any way, Beaulieu's translation
explicitly limits the meaning to the identity of the Jewish people as
an "ethnic nation". Therefore, in the German sentence after the
"Ausrottung", the Jewish people does not exist any longer, while in
Beaulieu's translation, it leads some kind of existence outside the
identity as an "ethnic nation". Therefore, while in the German sentence
the meaning of "ausrotten" as "to kill everybody" is perfectly clear,
Beaulieu's translation points out to everybody that a meaning apart
>from  "to kill everybody" is meant...

This manipulation is quite cunning, I have to admit that, but still
not perfect. I'm sure he could lie more effectively if he tried.

[semantic blabla snipped]

>Now you might begin to understand why revisionists are having such a
>field day with the so-called proof that the Holocaust promotion lobby
>is providing for their spiel! They seem to be totally unable to shoot
>straight. Now they couldn't be trying to hide something could they?

Field day? Bwahahaha! The only thing I'm seeing is that yet another time
a "revisionist" has been caught lying and manipulating - but not cunningly
enough not to be caught. Yes, you are right, revisionists _are_ unable to
shoot straight. Oh, lest I forget, "machen wir" is not to be translated as
"that's what we are doing" here, but as "let's do it" or "here we go!"
or something like that. Is this Mr. Beaulieu's "increadible easy
translation"?

>Jeremy, please let me know where I can get my hands on the ORIGINAL
>version of this speech. Is it available online? But I guess, you're
>probably not the person to ask. You most likely wouldn't tell me now
>even if you knew ... I might then expose more of the disinformation
>you rely on so much. That wouldn't be much fun would it?

Great "revisionist" scholarship. Not even able to use a decent library...

[...]

>It is difficult to reconstruct the puzzle to know exactly how much of the
>Jews who where deported were really killed by the Nazis, and how much perished
>from other reasons and how much survived, there's contradictory elements on
>that if we look at all the datas, not those that are selectivelly taken.
>But is seems easier to quote selectivelly and shake the 'ausrotten' rattle
>rather than to take in account as much data as possible.

The Nazis tried to "ausrotten" the Jews. They called it "ausrotten". They
did not succeed. This means that the Jewish people have not been "ausgerottet"
because there are still living Jews. This does not mean that "ausrotten"
means something different then  "kill them all", no matter how dearly Mr.
Beaulieu wishes. It's a pity that I'm not a logician, there is certainly
a term which describes Mr. Beauliues attempt of diffusing the facts.

Apart from that it is rather difficult to find a single quotation by Himmler
that does not support my understanding of "ausrotten". I wonder whether
Mr. Beaulieu would care to offer such a quotation rather than falsifying
existing ones which show the opposite?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 20 14:53:02 PDT 1996
Article: 58501 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 18:20:52 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 81
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>The ausrotten game seems on the way, as usual here, and since I remember almost
>nothing or very few of that langage,

"I don't know what the people here are talking about, but I'll throw in my 2-pence anyway."

>it will be the usual arrogant approach
>that will prevail: "I'm a native german speaker, or I speak perfectly german,
>you don't know german, so shut up, no german could or has deny the meaning of
>thiw word as extermination."

It's only strange that all native speakers of German, "revisionists" included, say that isn't it?

>This kind of attitude seems frequent here, and
>obviously that does not take in consideration some basic facts, a German living
>in that country would face some troubles if he's denounce to the Gestapo there
>as a dangerous political deviant by some puppet (hi Nele).

Ah, the great conspiration again. No, you wouldn't be arrested in Germany, when you
mistranslated a German word.

>However, this is not totally true neither, as we know Irving, who is perfectly fluent,

Oh, is he? I am perfectly willing to assume that. It would only mean that he deliberately
mistranslated the German sources in his books, which isn't good for his reputation either.

> had some reserves on that, accounting for the nature of the langage 60 years ago

Well Mr. Beaulieu, since you know so well, what _did_ change over the last 60
years in the German language?

>and the fact that this word is now much more frequently use to describe the
>a nazi extermination policy in the medias.

Nope. "Ausrotten" has in contrast to words like "vergasen", "Konzentrationslager",
"Blitzkrieg" etc. no specific semantic connection to the 3rd Reich. It simply means
was it means.

>Some brought X dictionnaries that
>show this specification: extermination when we talk about the livings. However,
>several other dictionnaries gives 2 definitions, eradication and extermination,
>without specifying anything about the livings.

"There are many dictionaries which support the view of my antagonists. Other
dictionaries don't mention explicitely that 'ausrotten' in connection with living
beings means 'killing them all'." Do you really think, that means they imply
"ausrotten" does _not_ mean "killing them all"?? Strange logic.

>  The opinion of an eminent grammarian is not relevant, simply because Himmler
>was a military. He was speaking of a violent program of expulsion, and the way
>someone learn about the meaning of a word is not necessarelly in a dictionnary,
>but from the parents, or from someone else that he know, in other circunstances
>also. Litterally it mean wipe out. And even if Himmler learned this word in a
>dictionnary, why should he have take the one which gives this specification
>about the livings rather than those which do not gives this specification?

Since Mr. Beaulieu himself has admitted that he doesn't speak German, where do
these wild speculations come from?  He has not read the source, has he?

>It is a certanty that a large amount of Jews survived to Nazi's persecutions,
>despite several of them died from direct or indirect causes. I've talk about
>demographical datas for Israel (550,000 holocaust survivors there just at the
>begining of the 50's, just for this country, one fifth childrens) and Germany
>had the time to liquidate all of them if there was a central decision that was
>taken in Berlin to kill them all. But we are still playing with this word,
>where 2 meanings are possible, except if we shift the context and consider
>that some dictionnaries are better than others because such grammarian has
>decided in the 80's that the best translation was 'extermination', one of
>Mazal's argument if memory deserve.

Ha, this were really funny, wouldn't it be so bloodily cynical.  The Nazis tried to kill all
 Jews. They said so, using the word "ausrotten". Luckily they did not succeed. And
because they did not succeed, "ausrotten" does not mean "to kill them all". What
an idiot!

[...]


Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 20 18:52:05 PDT 1996
Article: 58556 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens [sic!] of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 22:56:08 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
[...]
>>As a non-scientist, I have no understanding of the nature of Erco and silicagel. But I can
>>say that Peters does not imply any connection between these two products. In the passage
>>questioned above by Mr. Ehrlich, Peters dismisses a couple of products as unsuitable,
>>amongst them Silicagel in its _conventional form_. He does not say that Erco derives from
>>Silicagel.

>Yes, I understand that, but that means that you agree with Mr. Ehrlich's
>point.  All of our sources up till now have identified ERCO as silica
>gel.

No, I don't. The problems Mr. Ehrlich pointed out with the use of Silicagel can be
found in the text, that is true. But his point is to establish a contradiction in the text
by claiming that Silicagel has been used for Zyklon B nevertheless. This is not true,
as it can be found in the correctly translated source. That Peters differentiates
between Silicagel and Erco is of no consequence for Mr. Ehrlich's point, especially
because Mr. Ehrlich himself wasn't aware of a potential connection between these
two materials, as you will find out when re-reading his comments.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Aug 21 07:07:08 PDT 1996
Article: 58659 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some more questions Giwer doesn't dare to answer.
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 22:45:16 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) lying through his teeth again:

[I wrote:]
>>Hey, I have some more questions for you:
>>1) Where in national socialist writings did you find that the Nazis were not racist?

[Giwer answered]

>	I have never said that.

Oh yes, you have. It took me 2 days to dig up the proof, therefore I didn't respond earlier.
(Regards to the excellent DejaNews facilities) If I am allowed to remind you of your own words:

	From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
	Date:         1996/07/01
	Message-Id:   <4r78ui$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
	        As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
	Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
	democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
	work.  It is race neutral.

Regarding the post which you answer in the text and which puts forward the opinion
that racism was a major pillar of national socialism, what should your saying "It is race neutral"
 mean if not "They are not racist"??

>I have said that in the context of the times every European country
>qualified as racist.

Needless to say that you never said that.
[Unrelated anecdotes and commonplace drivel without value
as historical evidence snipped]

Now that you cannot deny that you called the Nazis "race neutral", could
you please offer some evidence for this view?

>Hitler himself was rather extreme in this matter but then he was only
>a Corporal without any formal higher education in the field.  His
>opinions on the human evolution science of the time were not
>particularly worse than that of any other politician.  Not any better
>than they are today for that matter but the subject does not come up
>often these days.

Of course. Of what relevance should Hitler be for national socialism?
I mean between 1933-1945 who in Germany cared for what Hitler said? He
was only a marginal figure on the political stage, wasn't he? By no means
could his words be taken as an indicator for national socialism, or
could they?

>>2) What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
>>socialism?

>	As I have pointed out many times, you have it backwards.  Natioal
>Socialism was a part of the NSDAP political stance, platform in
>today's terms, and not the other way around.

WHAT!? My good friend, you have a very vague idea of the nature of a fascist
state. But I'm beginning to understand your thought. You still believe that
communism and national socialism are synonymous. And you have heard of the
communist party being the basis of communist society. This is not the case
with the nazi society. Here we have several unrelated power blocks which
have the common grounds of fascist ideology. We have the NSDAP of course,
but also the SS, in the earlier stages the SA, we have the Gestapo, we
have the NS-government. Why do you think the "shadow ministeries" of the
SS like the RSHA or the WVHA were such big rivals for the Reichsgovernment?
Because they grasped more and more power which originally fell into the
responsibilities of the Reichs ministeries.  Why do you think the SA under
Roehm was annhilated. Because Roehm planned to establish the SA as a
milita which should replace the Wehrmacht as an armed force. Hitler needed
the Wehrmacht, he couldn't tolerate that. Why do you think were the
Gestapo not allowed in the concentration camps? Because the Totenkopfverbaende
guarded jealously their exclusive rights on the camps, and because the SD
started to become a big rival for the official police anyway. It may
surprise you, but by no means were all Nazis Parteigenossen.  Hitler's role
was to carefully balance these power blocks. He did so very successfully and
therefore retained his position as unquestioned Fuehrer till the very end.

But to come back to my original question. You have confirmed that you do not
agree with my opinion that the NSDAP is representative for national socialism,
but you didn't offer any evidence. So please answer my question. Or
alternatively, give some evidence for the NSDAP promoting some _other_
ideology than national socialism. And by the way, since your use of the
word is not quite clear to me, could you please give a definition what
"national socialism" actually is?

>Pro or anti abortion or pro or anti welfare  does not define either the
>Republicans or the Democrats.  They are simply part of the positions of
>the parties along with many other things.

This may be very interesting but has *nothing* to do with the situation
in the 3rd Reich nor is it support for your above claim. And if you assume
that national socialism is a position a party can have amongst others that
you have said something really dramatic which would surprise all historians
very much, and which needs some evidence. Could you please offer some
documents?

>>3) What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?

>What do historians have to do with anything that is still on-going.
>When a subject is dead for 50 years historians no longer have an axe
>to grind.

What are you trying to inger? Are you really saying that a) historians are
not concerned with things connected to the present and b) historians are
not concerend with things past for more than 50 years? Don't be
ridiculous. The discussion on the nature of fascim is not an axe someone
has to grind, but the attempt to find a theoretical basis which helps
explaining the history. Why can't you just admit that you don't know
any historians who have written on that topic. I know that, you know,
everybody knows. Why not admit it?

Or you could always answer my question: what historians to not regard
national socialism as a branch of fascism?

>Consider Alan Greenspan who knows the difference.  Hyeck for another.
>Read some free market economists and learn something for a change.

Oh, no! I really have proofed to you that a definition of fascism with
economical terms alone is not possible. So of what relevance should be
free market economists? And if you try to impress me with names, at
least get them right. It's "Hayek". Go an learn something for a
change. In the meantime you could elaborate on what Hayek has to do
with the topic. When I know your point, we can carry on.

>>4) When will you answer my posting of an official report to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer
>>SS which shows *exactly* that the evacuations to the east were only for the purpose of
>>mass slaughter. This sufficiantly disproves your inane interpretation of the Wannsee-document
>>Till now, you have remaindes suspiciously quiet about that. Well?

>	If you will post it, I will have a look at it.

This really _is_ chuzpah. What do you think did the thread "Giwer's
Wannsee bubbles burst" meant? I did post the article and you stayed
silent because you had no answer. Now you claim that it never existed.
This is really great. But kindhearted as I am, I will regurgitate what
I've written. The text is an official report of an SS platoon leader
to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS written in 1942. It reports the
actions of an SS platoon in the Minsk area:

	[...]
	Already on the 4.5. we started to excavate new pits in
	the vicinity of the commander's estate. These works too
	took four days.
	The 11.5 a transport of Jews (1000 head) from Vienna
	arrived at Minsk and was brought directly from the train
	station to the mentioned pits. To achieve this, the platoon
	was placed directly at the pit.
	The 13.5. 8 men supervised the excavation of another pit because
	in near future a further transport of Jews from the Reich is to
	be expected.
	[...]

The routine goes on and on over pages. Jews from all over Europe and
>from  the Reich arrive, are brought to freshly excavated pits, are
"dealt with". After that, extensive weapon cleaning takes place. This
text describes the true nature of the "evacuations" as they are planned
in the Wannsee document. When destruction by work is not possible, then
other means are found. Here they are.

So go ahead, answer my question.

>As for my interpretation of the document, it is hardly in need of
>interpretation.

You are right, your interpretation is rubbish and doesn't need any
serious consideration.

>1)	It speaks for itself needing only to point out that it does not
>really say what some people want to believe it says.

Yes! No matter how hard the "revisionists" try, the Nazis never planned
to re-settle the Jews in the East, the area which they themselves considered
as their essential "Lebensraum".

>2)	It is hardly necessary that there is little evidence that
>anything but workcamps was implemented, that most of it never
>happened.  That means, show me anything other such as sterilization of
>fractional and meritorious Jews who were sterilized.

Wrong. I have just given you evidence that the "evacuations" into the
east were a method of killing thousands. When the shooting became an too
ineffective method, Vernichtungslager were established.
But you still haven't answered the post...

>	Now you have some answers.

No, I don't have any answer. I have one outright lie and lots of unrelated drivel
and evasive maneuvres. I am still waiting for your answers:

1. Where in national socialist writings do you find that the nazis were not racist
   (or "race neutral" if that suits you better)?
2 What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
socialism?
2.1. What _is_ national socialism in your opinion?
3. What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?
4. What do you say to the document showing that the "evacuations" mentioned
in the Wannsee-document were evacuations into death?

>Just what was your point in misrepresenting what I said to phrase the
>questions the way you did?

We have already played that "misrepresenting" game once. Do you want me to show you again
using your own quotations that I exactly give what you have said?


Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Aug 21 07:07:09 PDT 1996
Article: 58685 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens [sic!] of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 23:01:51 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4vcr87$f0t@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>It appears Mr. Abels's translation of Peters generally confirms
>Ehrlich606's [...]

The problem is the little word "generally". This newsgroup is dealing with a historical
subject and the texts discussed here are used as historical evidence. That means,
when they are translations, they have to meet historical standards. Therefore
they have to be as accurate as possible. Mr. Ehrlich succeeds in grasping the general
gist of a text, that is right. But he is well-known for his ability of discussing the possible
meaning of isolated words. We know what people like him do with texts like the
Wannsee-document or the Himmler-speeches. So why should I be quiet when catching
him inserting words, leaving out words, or using completely wrong words? Just
yesterday, I caught Beaulieu with a much more serious manipulation. Those interested
may look up my comments in the thread "RE: Wieder mit dem", the 359 line post.
We must not underestimate the possibilities one has when manipulating translations,
especially since the majority of the Anglo-Saxon audience does not speak any foreign
languages. I will contiue being _very_ touchy when finding false translations.

Nele

[posted and emailed]


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 22 11:43:06 PDT 1996
Article: 58920 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 21:15:25 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4vf9ck$860@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
[...]

>>>Beaulieu's translation points out to everybody that a meaning apart
>>>from "to kill everybody" is meant...

[Much of my text left out by "Ehrlich", successfully falsifying the context]

>>>This manipulation is quite cunning, I have to admit that, but still
>>>not perfect. I'm sure he could lie more effectively if he tried.

[...]

>Personal affairs preclude extensive participation in the so-called unique
>political culture of this newsgroup, but I could hardly forbear from the
>opportunity to laud Herr Abels for correctly noting that *exterminate* is
>a *cunning* and *manipulative* translation of the word *ausrotten.*  Would
>you care to respond to the charge, Mr. McFee?

Well, well, Mr. "Ehrlich",

   what is the meaning of this? Does the mask finally fall?
Out of sheer curiosity, is "Ehrlich" your real name?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 22 12:39:06 PDT 1996
Article: 58938 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 16:47:11 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>take a linguist to recognize, AND YOU DO NOT QUOTE HIM ONE TIME IN YOUR
>LENGTHY DIATRIBE SUPPOSEDLY DIRECTED AT HIM!!!

You are right. My mistake. Since Mr. Beaulieu neglected the usual method of indicating
quotations in posts to newsgroups,  I mistook the contribution of one
"revisionist" with the text of another. Sorry for that.

BUT does this change in any way the points I've criticised?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 23 06:27:17 PDT 1996
Article: 59044 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens [sic!] of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 18:01:35 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4vhid4$r5a@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4v7p75$7k3@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4va6hh$iq4@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4vd34d$n5g@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4vek8o$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	Except ... and as you know ... I have posted dozens of times that
>there has been NOTHING posted connecting ERCO and silica gel from any
>original source.

Hehe, I *can* imagine that: an agitated discussion between Ehrlich and the others
on the nature of Erco and silica gel is going on with lots of comments on source texts,
and in between we find Mr. Giwer, not understanding anything, but posting and re-posting
that nothing at all is being said. :))

Yes, Mr. Giwer, we all believe that you have posted what you have posted.

[...]

BTW, would you care to answer "RE: Some other questions Giwer doesn't dare to answer"?
There are still some things unclear.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 23 11:38:02 PDT 1996
Article: 59087 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich translating: Over 20 mistakes in 6 simple sentences (was RE: Saugervermoegens...)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 17:33:59 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 37
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>Ah, yes, Nele the linguist, this time taking on Ehrlich.

>Instead of giving an extended litany of nitpicking,

The texts posted in this newsgroup are treated as historical sources. Therfore, if
they are translations, they have to meet the standards of historiography.
If Mr. Ehrlich offers translations which at best give the general gist of a source,
and yet insists on having them treated as reliable sources, he gets the
appropriate answer. If his translations are better, I do no hesitate to react in
a different way, as you will find when you read "RE: A Kurt Pruefer letter". This
has nothing to do with "nitpicking", but very much with methods of historiography -
"revisionists" tend not to be acquainted with these methods, else they wouldn't
arrive at their inane conclusions.

> Nele, why not just
>give your own translation side by side with Ehrlich's and let the English
>speaking readers decide if there's a significant difference.  (If you've
>already done so, please forgive the suggestion, I just stepped in on this
>thread as it exists--one message.)

I delivered my translation along with my first reply to Mr. Ehrlich. A second, more
extensive copy has hovered around this newsgroup for some time, I don't know,
whether it's still here. You will find another copy in the Nizkor archives anyway.

>Would save a lot of words, though it
>does give you less chance to show off some dubious comprehension skills.

>Perhaps you could argue with German Rudolf about what Leuchter and you do
>or do not know, languages be damned.

Funny you mention it, just yesterday I've read a very interesting article on Germar Rudolf
by the Dipl. Chemiker Josef Bailer. His conclusion was that Rudolf's expertise was about
the same as Leuchter's. Oh yes, and Rudolf was very active in the German neo-fascist
scence before his report was published, which makes him, er, perhaps a bit biased?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 23 15:10:57 PDT 1996
Article: 59168 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is so important about this?
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 18:19:02 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4vhjdr$r5a@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ve5ms$llp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	So important that it draws mailbombs just for repeating what was on
>the milnet whois server?  Come on gryn.org, explain the importance of
>mailbombing for posting it.
>	You have everyone's curiosity aroused now.
>	Why was it removed from the milnet server?  Did he quit the job?  What
>is your interest in it?

For god's sake, one intellectually inferior idiot took refuge to stupid methods. Who knows
that it wasn't that moron Marduk. Why should anybody assume that there is a conspiracy
out there to get you. You overestimate your importance, even your importance for the
Holocaust-denial. (I bet many "revisionists" would prefer if you kept your mouth shut :> )

Nele

P.S. When will you answer to "RE: Some more questions Giwer doesn't dare to answer"?



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 23 17:14:17 PDT 1996
Article: 59187 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 18:09:00 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 8
Distribution: world
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	I only control this newsgroup at the moment.  Get used to it.

Oh, do you? Would you care to let go the levers of power for a moment and to
reply to "RE:Some other questions Giwer doesn't dare to answer."?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Aug 24 08:18:13 PDT 1996
Article: 59407 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Kurt Pruefer Letter
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 17:44:42 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 132
Distribution: world
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** Please note that I post these comments _after_ I have read Mr. Ehrlich's
** comments on my criticising Mr. Beaulieu in "RE:  Wieder mit
** dem". There Mr. Ehrlich completely changed the meaning of my text
** by omittig important sections. He deliberately took refuge to dishonest
** methods to back up an unsupportable point.

ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>[If you conventionalists would get off the stick, you wouldn’t be left
>with me to translate this stuff.  Stop drooling, Nele, this was a tough
>one]

What? Don't you like my comments on your translations?

>[This is a two page letter located on Nizkor under *people*, *Kurt
>Pruefer*]

It is obvious that Mr. Ehrlich has invested much more labour and
thought into this translation than into his previous ones. This
translation is considerably better than the others, and, apart
some passages which are a bit problematic, quite accurately. This
is laudable because it increases the value of his translation
as a basis for discussion. Let's hope that this tendency
continues with other sources which are not so straightforward
and neutral in their contents.

>Minutes

>Present:  The head Engineer Pruefer [which literally means *inspector*]
>from the firm Topf and Sons, Erfurt, concerning the construction of
>cremation facilities in the concentration camp Auschwitz

The "Betr.:" which can be found in the German text is used in official
letters to indicate in one short sentence the contents of the letter.
"Anwesenheit" belongs to the rest of the passage, therefore the
sentence is to be translated: "Presence of the chief engineer Pruefer..."
"K.G.L." is the abbreviation for "Kriegsgefangenenlager" (POW camp).
Concentration camp ("Konzentrationslager") is abbreviated "KL" or "KZ".

>Proceedings:  Engineer Pruefer dropped by the local office at 2 PM on the
>19th of August, 1942, in order to make the following points concerning the
>installation of five three muffle cremation ovens at the concentration
>camp and the new installation of two three muffle ovens of simple
>construction [in einfacher Bauweise], Plan # D59-579 and # D59 599.

>On this occasion the following was settled (festgelegt):

>1)  No later than August 26-27, the fitter Holik will arrive from
>Buchenwald, the fitter Koch in about two weeks [and at that point] the
>construction of the five three muffle ovens will be started immediately
>[Mit dem Aufbau ... wird sofort begonnen].  The firm Koehler in Myslowitz
>continues the brickwork for the ovens and flues, and well as the
>construction of the chimney, according to the plans and instructions of
>Topf and Sons.

Why "and at that point"? The way I understand the letter, the work
started at once (perhaps done by local firms?)

>2)  With regard to the two three muffle ovens with the *Bath Installations
>for Special Action* [Badeanstalten fuer Sonderaktion], it was recommended
>by Engineer Pruefer, that the ovens from an already received shipment be
>sent on [abzuzweigen] to Mogilev, and he would immediately bring it to the
>attention of the SS Economic Development Office, and ask that further
>arrangements be made.

Perhaps the better translation for "bei" is in this case not "with" but
"near". "Badeanstalt" means "swimming baths". The translation "received
shipment..." is incorrect. The writer means that there is a ready shipment
for Mogilev at the place of firm and that Pruefer suggested to take parts
>from  this shipment for the installation in Auschwitz. The last part of the
passage is not a suggestion by Pruefer, but was actually done. Therfore:
"This was brought immediately to the attention etc."
Note that the German text is ungrammatical here.

>3)  With regard to the construction of one of the 2. crematoriums with
>five three muffle ovens, as well as  setting up of the air intake and
>exhaust system (Be- und Entlaueftungsanlagen), this depends [muss erst ...
>bezuegl] on the outcome of negotations with the the State Security Office
>(RSHA), which are already underway.  We will be waiting for the quota
>allocation.

The negotiations with the RSHA are about the allocation of contingents
(probably material or transport).

>4)  The firm of Topf and Sons mistakenly sent to Auschwitz the parts of
>one of the double muffle cremation ovens which were meant for Mauthausen.

>Engineer Pruefer recommended that the oven be constructed here.  The
>missing parts -- the doors to two ovens and two ash flues [2 Einfuehrturen
>und 2 Aschentnahmentueren] could be taken from the shipment of the five
>three muffle ovens.

Handwritten note: "Ofen geht nach Mauthausen zurueck!", "Oven is to
be sent back to Mauthausen!"

>5.)  Together with Mr. Kohler and SS-Unterscharfuehrer Kirschnek, he
>conducted a damage assessment of the newly built chimney in the existing
>crematorium, and touched on the necessary steps to be taken.   - Since the
>chimney gets very hot it must stand free and shouldn’t be tightly
>connected with an outer casing [to the rest of the building].

The last sentence is not correct. It says "Because the chimney lining
[? Schornsteinfutter] works because of the great heat, it must not be
connected in a fixed position with the outer casing (of the chimney)"
"Arbeiten" may also describe the slight expanding and shrinking of
materials under the influence of changing temperatures. I presume the
English term is also "to work"?

>6)  On Thursday, the 20th of August, 1942, Pruefer, together with Mr.
>Koehler and SS Sturmfueher Janisch inspected the 5 three muffle ovens in
>the camp, and went over the relevant details.

>7)  Engineer Pruefer asked for a written order on the shipment of the two
>three muffle and double muffle  cremation ovens, so that it could be found
>out right away whether the ovens could be set aside for the Mogilev
>consignment.

Handwritten note: "Sofort Bescheid geben.", "Inform immediately."

>8)  10 freight bills are to be sent immediately to Topf for the missing
>fire-clay and miscellaneous materials.

Handwritten note: "24. 8. 42. Tel. Herrn Pruefer Bescheid gegeben, da
2 Stueck 8Muffelofen aus Lieferung Mogilew abgezweigt werden koennen.
Herr Pruefer teilte mit, daß ihm dies bereits SS-Strmf. [?] bereits
mitgeteilt habe.", "24. 8. 42. Informed Mr. Pruefer over telephone that
2 pieces 8 muffle oven can be set aside from the shipment for Mogilev.
Mr. Pruefer said that he has been informed on this already by SS-Strmf.
[?]"

>(various signatures,  handwritten notations)




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Aug 24 22:15:52 PDT 1996
Article: 59657 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: basic warnings for the use of gas masks
Date: 24 Aug 1996 11:53:00 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4vmqes$df7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4vipjg$nr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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To: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>1. This device does not supply oxygen and must be used only in
>adequately ventilated areas containing at least 19.5% oxygen. 

[and so on...]

Now we are left to wonder, exactly WHAT Mr. Giwer is trying to say? The 
only imaginable answer I can come up with, is that he is ingering 
Holocaust couldn't take place because gas masks protecting from HCN were 
technically impossible? (Blabla country bla submarines bla, rockets and 
so on blabla not gasmasks?) Apart from that, Mr. Giwer forgets that the 
the method of opening cyclon cans wearing gas masks has been in use 
decades before the holocaust.

Nele

[posted and emailed - hate mail will be published]



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Aug 25 09:51:44 PDT 1996
Article: 59660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem
Date: 24 Aug 1996 10:31:25 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4vmllu$cih@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4v4r3a$iv2@Vir.com> <4vck7m$1jh@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4vj08a$h9@Vir.com>
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To: jfbe@vir.com

Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
..]
>> Ahem.  In Mr. Abels' article <4va4lj$iq4@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
>> DThomas, which you are replying to, there is not a single word written
>> by me.

> There was several of your statements in the original article I
> posted, this is what he had in the mind certanly.

As I have already remarked, I mistook your quoting Conrad with your own 
remarks because you neglected to mark the quotations appropriatly. My 
fault, sorry for that. But this should be no big deal anyway, because 
it's usually the "revisionists" who demand that a 100% consensus has to 
be between everybody, else a claim would not be valid. This means that 
logically there should be no difference between your thoughts and 
Conrad's. 

If you had read and understood my comments you would have realized that I 
was by no means referring to Mr. McCarthy's remarks but only to the 
manipulated translation by Mr. Conrad.

What I am really puzzled about is, that you and the other "revisionists" 
have started to be so quiet about the piece of translation offered by 
Conrad. Don't you have any remarks on this?

Nele

(posted and emailed)



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Aug 25 09:51:46 PDT 1996
Article: 59695 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem "Ausrottung" Wahnsinn.
Date: 24 Aug 1996 10:52:09 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4vmmsp$cih@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ut6cn$q04@newsbf02.news.aol.com><4ut6cn$q04@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4uu90f$qah@grivel.une.edu.au> <4v60pq$2hgk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><4ut6cn$q04@newsbf02.news.aol.com><4ut6cn$q04@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4uu90f$qah@grivel.une.edu.au> <4v60pq$2hgk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4va4v1$iq4@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4vj6oc$332c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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To: gmcfee@ibm.net

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>:>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>:>>Allow me to simply interject that "zunichte machen" is the *exact* literal
>:>>rendering of the component parts of "annihilate".
>:>
>:>No, that doesn't work. Man kann eine Absicht zunichte machen, jemandes Plan,
>:>sein Vorhaben, aber nichts Physisches.

>Nele, was meinst Du dabei?  Ullstein Lexikon der deutschen Sprache: 

>zunichte: zu nichts, entzwei, zugrunde, kaputt, 
>zunichte machen: vernichten, zugrunde richten.

Ich weiss nicht, ein Satz wie "Ich mache das Auto meines Nachbarn 
zunichte" klingt fuer mich etwas seltsam.... Das kommuniziert zwar und 
ist in seiner Bedeutung eindeutig, aber doch wohl unidiomatisch. Ich 
glaube nicht, dass das ein Deutscher so sagen wuerde. Der Duden gibt zwar 
keine praezise Definition, aber die Beispielsaetze beziehen sich auf 
Hoffnungen, Plaene etc. Aehnliche Beispielsaetze finden sich im grossen 
Wahrig. Im Fruehneuhochdeutschen war der Bezug auf physische Dinge 
jedenfalls noch moeglich.

>Ich wollte einfach bemerken, dass "an + nihil" und "zu + nichte" sind >fast gleich.

Das stimmt, wobei ich allerdings glaube, dass das Zufall ist. Der 
Gebrauch von praepositionalen Affixen ist in Sprachen mehr oder weniger 
beliebig (be-staetigen vs. con-firm), und die Annahme einer 
etymologischen Verbindung wuerde bedeuten, dass ein Zusammenhang in 
vor-lateinischer Zeit bestuende, was meiner Meinung etwas gewagt ist :) 
Aber um ehrlich zu sein, ich glaube nicht, dass die ganze Angelegenheit 
so wichtig ist, es war nur eine Anmerkung von mir, die ich so nebenbei 
gemacht habe. (Hoffentlich macht sich unser Freund Matt jetzt nicht diese 
kleine Unstimmigkeit zunutze! :> )

Tschau,
  Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Aug 25 09:51:46 PDT 1996
Article: 59725 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians, Storytellers and the Holocaust
Date: 24 Aug 1996 11:40:08 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 142
Message-ID: <4vmpmo$df7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ve0bm$llp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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To: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>It is important to put the work of the couple historians (and 
>wannabes like Pressac) regarding the holocaust into perspective. 

And among all correspondents to this newsgroups, it's Mr. Giwer who is 
qualified to judge who is to be considered a historian and who not. Mr. 
Giwer who said that national socialism was "race neutral", Mr. Giwer who 
thinks that Marxism, fascism and liberalism are the same.

[...]
>
>It is those who write about the holocaust (who are all loosely
>elevated to the status of historian)

Unknown figures as Jaeckel, Benz, Buchheim, Kershaw, and even Nolte in 
his earlier stages.

>who have refined and purified the
>stories.  They have removed from the public record all the testimony
>about steaming and electrocution and vacuum chamber suffocation.  They
>have removed those an many other things such as the "special method"
>of burning bodies without fuel.  

If Mr. Giwer finally would pull the information out of his pocket where 
this comment does come from, I could try and dig up the original source, 
to find out what this person actually said.

[...]

>With only the "damning" evidence of the trials the entire story >would
>be obviously false.

This is correct. What a luck that there are tons of evidence apart from 
the files of the Nuremberg trials.

[...]

>What is most interesting is that in all but the most recent cases this
>has been done without even once visiting the scenes of the crimes.  So
>what did they have to work with?  The Nuremburg evidence of course.  

Which is of course not true. If Mr. Giwer actually had _read_ research 
papers on the third Reich and the Holocaust, he would have found out that 
they base mainly on authentic documents produced between 1933 and 1945 
NOT on the results from the Nuremberg trials, and NOT EVEN on the 
reports of eye witnesses. Uneducated as he is, Mr. Giwer is misled by the 
many exceperts from these files posted in this newsgroup.

[...]

>So over the years parts of the trial record have been eliminated from
>the retelling of the story.  They were finally able, by the 1970s to
>narrow down to two means death, roving execution squads and gassing.

Needless to say, this isn't true. The method of killing people by forcing 
them to work themselves to death has never been dismissed. The method of 
not giving sufficiently healthy living conditions and therfore killing 
people by illness has never been dismissed. The "Abspritzen", the 
injecting of poison has never been dismissed. The beating to death has 
never been dismissed. The medical experiments have never been dismissed. 
Lying, lying, lying. This is all a Giwer is able to.

>At no time did they add up the numbers but simply declared 6 million
>else if they had the total would not be six million.  Thus when three
>million fewer were gassed at Auschwitz then three million more were
>shot by the roving bands.  

The only people _really_ concerned with the number game are the 
"revisionists". To me personally, it doesn't make a difference whether 4, 
5 or 6 million people have been murdered. The atrocity of this crime is 
unimaginable, the one way or the other.

[...]

>What they have not done is equally interesting.  They have not gone
>beyond the tribunal records.  Thus when there is there is
>documentation of liberated camps that indicates an ugly story they let
>it stand.  Wheras a historian would document how the camps came to be
>in the condition found they rather let the image stand that the camps
>were in such condition from the moment they were constructed.  

Which is a lie. Extensive studies have been made on the developement of 
the camps from the illegal private prisons of the SA to the refined death 
industry managed by the SS. But of course Mr. Giwer doesn't know them. 
Oh, wait a moment, he does. I remember posting in a reply to one of his 
lies 1 or 2 pages copied from a historical bibliography, excactly 
concerning this point.

>Thus these writers are clearly acting as storytellers.  

Who is telling a story right now? Without proof, without research, just 
out of the empty stomach? Or is this again the famous "op-ed" format, Mr. 
Giwer's favourite excuse for bungling?

>It is the
>story of human evil upon the innocent which ends in the triumph of
>good with the establishment of Israel.  It is the story of a reward
>for suffering.  The descent into hell to later rise to heaven and
>become a god.  

Aha, here it is again, the great conspiracy of the JEW, the fears that 
creep under "revisionists'" beds, the projection of their own 
inadequacies and pettiness.

[...]

>	Thus the struggle becomes the post war struggle to found Israel.
>Whereas a historian would trace the Zionist movement from the late
>1800s through 1947.  But the prewar part is rarely discussed in the
>context of the holocaust by the storytellers.  The complete story is
>something that simply can not be properly told because the mythos
>lacks the struggle of the innocent to end the evil.  

Here is again the old antisemitic story: it's all the fault of the 
victim. No "revisionist" ever admits that the zionists were completely 
unimportant in the world-wide scale, or that the overwhelming majority of 
German and Eastern-European Jews simply had NOTHING TO DO with the 
zionists. 

[...]

Well, well. Now we've read very much about what historiography should 
have done. But there's still a little problem. If real revisionist 
historians want to attack an established edifice of historiography, it's 
THEM who have to present the evidence. The rules of the game don't say 
that they can make their point by demanding that the conventional view 
should be re-proved. They have to present their own material. How comes 
that till now no "revisionist" proof could withstand professional 
evaluation? How comes that NO professional historian can be found amidst 
the "revisionist", not even in the so-called Institute for Historical 
Review? How comes that the the overwhelming majority of "revisionists" 
are dilettants who achieve not more than some wild speculations and whose 
greatest argument is the "great conspiracy"? 

Couldn't the true answer be that there is simply nothing behind the 
so-called "revisionism"?

Nele

[posted and emailed - hate mail will be published]




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Aug 25 15:59:28 PDT 1996
Article: 59824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem
Date: 24 Aug 1996 10:31:52 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4vmlmo$cih@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4v4r3a$iv2@Vir.com> <4vck7m$1jh@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4vj08a$h9@Vir.com>
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To: jfbe@vir.com

Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
..]
>> Ahem.  In Mr. Abels' article <4va4lj$iq4@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
>> DThomas, which you are replying to, there is not a single word written
>> by me.

> There was several of your statements in the original article I
> posted, this is what he had in the mind certanly.

As I have already remarked, I mistook your quoting Conrad with your own 
remarks because you neglected to mark the quotations appropriatly. My 
fault, sorry for that. But this should be no big deal anyway, because 
it's usually the "revisionists" who demand that a 100% consensus has to 
be between everybody, else a claim would not be valid. This means that 
logically there should be no difference between your thoughts and 
Conrad's. 

If you had read and understood my comments you would have realized that I 
was by no means referring to Mr. McCarthy's remarks but only to the 
manipulated translation by Mr. Conrad.

What I am really puzzled about is, that you and the other "revisionists" 
have started to be so quiet about the piece of translation offered by 
Conrad. Don't you have any remarks on this?

Nele

(posted and emailed)



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Aug 25 15:59:29 PDT 1996
Article: 59839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.inforamp.net!winternet.com!mr.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: 25 Aug 1996 11:38:31 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4vpdvn$7vj@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4v3urr$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <32187EF5.2610@gryn.org> <4vbnne$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4vek03$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4vhir1$r5a@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4vjshq$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]

>>>I only control this newsgroup at the moment.  Get used to it.

[I wrote]
>>Oh, do you? Would you care to let go the levers of power for a moment
>>and to reply to "RE:Some other questions Giwer doesn't dare to 
>>answer."?

[Mr. Giwer]
>Sorry about that but I have admissions by the major paritcipants that
>I do control this Newsgroup.  If you would first get them to agree
>that I do not and have them post to the contrary, then we can start
>over.  

Er, excuse me, where in the above lines do you find me denying that you 
"control" this newsgroup? Do you know that there are training programs to 
help you with your dyslexia?

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 26 11:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 60105 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!Frankfurt.Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians, Storytellers and the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 21:43:41 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4vsgte$7b5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ve0bm$llp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4vmpmo$df7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4vrj6n$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>>And among all correspondents to this newsgroups, it's Mr. Giwer who is
>>qualified to judge who is to be considered a historian and who not.

>	No, it is up to degree granting universities to do so.  You are
>defending a pharamcist.  The last time I asked a pharamacist about the
>holocaust he said, Say what?

No, it's not up to university degrees to do so. It's about knowing the tools of the
trade. It's about knowing what the technical terms precisely mean. It's about
knowing where to look for books. It's about *reading* the sources, and knowing
enough background to judge what they mean. It's about knowing how to write
and how to present a logical argumentation. It's about knowing when you are
shown wrong and when to rethink your own position. It's about not lying
to make your point.

That's what makes out a historian - and you know nothing about that.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 26 11:05:40 PDT 1996
Article: 60106 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!Frankfurt.Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians, Storytellers and the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 21:46:05 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4vsh1u$7b5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ve0bm$llp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4vmpmo$df7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4vrj6n$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>And among all correspondents to this newsgroups, it's Mr. Giwer who is
>>qualified to judge who is to be considered a historian and who not.

>	No, it is up to degree granting universities to do so.  You are
>defending a pharamcist.  The last time I asked a pharamacist about the
>holocaust he said, Say what?

I quite forgot:

Are you trying to say that you have a university degree in history, Mr. Giwer? Or
in what manner are you qualifed to comment on a historical subject? Or are
you too a wannabe?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 26 11:05:40 PDT 1996
Article: 60111 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!Frankfurt.Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Giwer: The Himmler tape
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 21:57:41 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>  An interesting aspect about it is that since there's two definitions
> for ausrottung, the revisionist are just avoiding real issues when

Was fuer ein Schwachkopf. Allmaehlich kann ich's wirklich nicht mehr
hoeren. Kein Deutsch koennen aber dumm in der Gegend herumfaseln -
welch ein Vollidiot.

> they use the term 'wipe out' or eradicate because a very, very accurate
> definition would say that it means only 'extermination' for the livings.
> Then, despite some dictionnaries do not gives this specification, the revisionist
> who claim that Himmler used ausrottung in a semi-figurative way in connection
> to the expulsion of the Jews are supposed to lie.

Ich wuerde niemals "to wipe out" als Synonym fuer "ausrotten" benutzen, sondern
bestenfalls "ausloeschen", "voellig vernichten", "restlos umbringen" und so weiter.
Beaulieu ist eine solche grenzenlose Dumpfbacke,  dass er nicht mal erkennt,
dass er jetzt Englisch und Deutsch durcheinanderbrinkt. Irgendwie typisch fuer
den infantilen Intellekt der "Revisionisten".

>  However, if I ask why Himmler equated 'evacuation of the jews' (jUDENEVAKUIERUNG)
>  to ausrottung at the begining of his speech, guess what will be the answer:
>  Himmler used the word 'evacuation' in a figurative way!

Schon mal was von "Euphemismus" gehoert, du Schwachkopf?

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 26 15:00:31 PDT 1996
Article: 60139 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!Frankfurt.Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Coward Giwer running away (again and again and again)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 22:16:59 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 230
Distribution: world
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X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]

>	This pretend ridicule of being the master Peg Bundy is amusing but it
>is difficult to see what the pretend contribution to an honest
>discussion of the material is.

>	But then, ridicule is all the holohuggers have on their side as the
>facts have deserted them.

Hey, Mr. Giwer, it's really funny that you just mentioned "honest discussion of the material"
and "deserting facts". I fear you ducked out very cowardly from a thread a couple of days
ago. Please find it attached below that you can collect your guts and offer a coherent answer.

Nele

P.S. Would you agree that this is a historical topic? What again was your degree in?
(I remember someone mumbling something about "wannabes" and "definition by
university degrees". I wonder who was that??)


-------------------------------
mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) lying through his teeth again:

[I wrote:]
>>Hey, I have some more questions for you:
>>1) Where in national socialist writings did you find that the Nazis were not racist?

[Giwer answered]

>	I have never said that.

Oh yes, you have. It took me 2 days to dig up the proof, therefore I didn't respond earlier.
(Regards to the excellent DejaNews facilities) If I am allowed to remind you of your own words:

	From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
	Date:         1996/07/01
	Message-Id:   <4r78ui$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
	        As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
	Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
	democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
	work.  It is race neutral.

Regarding the post which you answer in the text and which puts forward the opinion
that racism was a major pillar of national socialism, what should your saying "It is race neutral"
 mean if not "They are not racist"??

>I have said that in the context of the times every European country
>qualified as racist.

Needless to say that you never said that.
[Unrelated anecdotes and commonplace drivel without value
as historical evidence snipped]

Now that you cannot deny that you called the Nazis "race neutral", could
you please offer some evidence for this view?

>Hitler himself was rather extreme in this matter but then he was only
>a Corporal without any formal higher education in the field.  His
>opinions on the human evolution science of the time were not
>particularly worse than that of any other politician.  Not any better
>than they are today for that matter but the subject does not come up
>often these days.

Of course. Of what relevance should Hitler be for national socialism?
I mean between 1933-1945 who in Germany cared for what Hitler said? He
was only a marginal figure on the political stage, wasn't he? By no means
could his words be taken as an indicator for national socialism, or
could they?

>>2) What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
>>socialism?

>	As I have pointed out many times, you have it backwards.  Natioal
>Socialism was a part of the NSDAP political stance, platform in
>today's terms, and not the other way around.

WHAT!? My good friend, you have a very vague idea of the nature of a fascist
state. But I'm beginning to understand your thought. You still believe that
communism and national socialism are synonymous. And you have heard of the
communist party being the basis of communist society. This is not the case
with the nazi society. Here we have several unrelated power blocks which
have the common grounds of fascist ideology. We have the NSDAP of course,
but also the SS, in the earlier stages the SA, we have the Gestapo, we
have the NS-government. Why do you think the "shadow ministeries" of the
SS like the RSHA or the WVHA were such big rivals for the Reichsgovernment?
Because they grasped more and more power which originally fell into the
responsibilities of the Reichs ministeries.  Why do you think the SA under
Roehm was annhilated. Because Roehm planned to establish the SA as a
milita which should replace the Wehrmacht as an armed force. Hitler needed
the Wehrmacht, he couldn't tolerate that. Why do you think were the
Gestapo not allowed in the concentration camps? Because the Totenkopfverbaende
guarded jealously their exclusive rights on the camps, and because the SD
started to become a big rival for the official police anyway. It may
surprise you, but by no means were all Nazis Parteigenossen.  Hitler's role
was to carefully balance these power blocks. He did so very successfully and
therefore retained his position as unquestioned Fuehrer till the very end.

But to come back to my original question. You have confirmed that you do not
agree with my opinion that the NSDAP is representative for national socialism,
but you didn't offer any evidence. So please answer my question. Or
alternatively, give some evidence for the NSDAP promoting some _other_
ideology than national socialism. And by the way, since your use of the
word is not quite clear to me, could you please give a definition what
"national socialism" actually is?

>Pro or anti abortion or pro or anti welfare  does not define either the
>Republicans or the Democrats.  They are simply part of the positions of
>the parties along with many other things.

This may be very interesting but has *nothing* to do with the situation
in the 3rd Reich nor is it support for your above claim. And if you assume
that national socialism is a position a party can have amongst others that
you have said something really dramatic which would surprise all historians
very much, and which needs some evidence. Could you please offer some
documents?

>>3) What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?

>What do historians have to do with anything that is still on-going.
>When a subject is dead for 50 years historians no longer have an axe
>to grind.

What are you trying to inger? Are you really saying that a) historians are
not concerned with things connected to the present and b) historians are
not concerend with things past for more than 50 years? Don't be
ridiculous. The discussion on the nature of fascim is not an axe someone
has to grind, but the attempt to find a theoretical basis which helps
explaining the history. Why can't you just admit that you don't know
any historians who have written on that topic. I know that, you know,
everybody knows. Why not admit it?

Or you could always answer my question: what historians to not regard
national socialism as a branch of fascism?

>Consider Alan Greenspan who knows the difference.  Hyeck for another.
>Read some free market economists and learn something for a change.

Oh, no! I really have proofed to you that a definition of fascism with
economical terms alone is not possible. So of what relevance should be
free market economists? And if you try to impress me with names, at
least get them right. It's "Hayek". Go an learn something for a
change. In the meantime you could elaborate on what Hayek has to do
with the topic. When I know your point, we can carry on.

>>4) When will you answer my posting of an official report to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer
>>SS which shows *exactly* that the evacuations to the east were only for the purpose of
>>mass slaughter. This sufficiantly disproves your inane interpretation of the Wannsee-document
>>Till now, you have remaindes suspiciously quiet about that. Well?

>	If you will post it, I will have a look at it.

This really _is_ chuzpah. What do you think did the thread "Giwer's
Wannsee bubbles burst" meant? I did post the article and you stayed
silent because you had no answer. Now you claim that it never existed.
This is really great. But kindhearted as I am, I will regurgitate what
I've written. The text is an official report of an SS platoon leader
to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS written in 1942. It reports the
actions of an SS platoon in the Minsk area:

	[...]
	Already on the 4.5. we started to excavate new pits in
	the vicinity of the commander's estate. These works too
	took four days.
	The 11.5 a transport of Jews (1000 head) from Vienna
	arrived at Minsk and was brought directly from the train
	station to the mentioned pits. To achieve this, the platoon
	was placed directly at the pit.
	The 13.5. 8 men supervised the excavation of another pit because
	in near future a further transport of Jews from the Reich is to
	be expected.
	[...]

The routine goes on and on over pages. Jews from all over Europe and
>from  the Reich arrive, are brought to freshly excavated pits, are
"dealt with". After that, extensive weapon cleaning takes place. This
text describes the true nature of the "evacuations" as they are planned
in the Wannsee document. When destruction by work is not possible, then
other means are found. Here they are.

So go ahead, answer my question.

>As for my interpretation of the document, it is hardly in need of
>interpretation.

You are right, your interpretation is rubbish and doesn't need any
serious consideration.

>1)	It speaks for itself needing only to point out that it does not
>really say what some people want to believe it says.

Yes! No matter how hard the "revisionists" try, the Nazis never planned
to re-settle the Jews in the East, the area which they themselves considered
as their essential "Lebensraum".

>2)	It is hardly necessary that there is little evidence that
>anything but workcamps was implemented, that most of it never
>happened.  That means, show me anything other such as sterilization of
>fractional and meritorious Jews who were sterilized.

Wrong. I have just given you evidence that the "evacuations" into the
east were a method of killing thousands. When the shooting became an too
ineffective method, Vernichtungslager were established.
But you still haven't answered the post...

>	Now you have some answers.

No, I don't have any answer. I have one outright lie and lots of unrelated drivel
and evasive maneuvres. I am still waiting for your answers:

1. Where in national socialist writings do you find that the nazis were not racist
   (or "race neutral" if that suits you better)?
2 What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
socialism?
2.1. What _is_ national socialism in your opinion?
3. What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?
4. What do you say to the document showing that the "evacuations" mentioned
in the Wannsee-document were evacuations into death?

>Just what was your point in misrepresenting what I said to phrase the
>questions the way you did?

We have already played that "misrepresenting" game once. Do you want me to show you again
using your own quotations that I exactly give what you have said?


Nele





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 26 15:00:32 PDT 1996
Article: 60140 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!Frankfurt.Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ridicule is all the holohuggers have
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 22:13:18 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 224
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4vsil1$7b5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4vlo01$5em@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4vmuam$qut@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4vpf27$bep@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ps1031.fremdsprachen-literaturen.uni-marburg.de
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]

>	This pretend ridicule of being the master Peg Bundy is amusing but it
>is difficult to see what the pretend contribution to an honest
>discussion of the material is.

>	But then, ridicule is all the holohuggers have on their side as the
>facts have deserted them.

Hey, Mr. Giwer, it's really funny that you just mentioned "honest discussion of the material".
I fear you ducked out very cowardly from a thread a couple of days ago. Please find it
attached below that you can collect your guts and offer a coherent answer.

Nele

-------------------------------
mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) lying through his teeth again:

[I wrote:]
>>Hey, I have some more questions for you:
>>1) Where in national socialist writings did you find that the Nazis were not racist?

[Giwer answered]

>	I have never said that.

Oh yes, you have. It took me 2 days to dig up the proof, therefore I didn't respond earlier.
(Regards to the excellent DejaNews facilities) If I am allowed to remind you of your own words:

	From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
	Date:         1996/07/01
	Message-Id:   <4r78ui$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
	        As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
	Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
	democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
	work.  It is race neutral.

Regarding the post which you answer in the text and which puts forward the opinion
that racism was a major pillar of national socialism, what should your saying "It is race neutral"
 mean if not "They are not racist"??

>I have said that in the context of the times every European country
>qualified as racist.

Needless to say that you never said that.
[Unrelated anecdotes and commonplace drivel without value
as historical evidence snipped]

Now that you cannot deny that you called the Nazis "race neutral", could
you please offer some evidence for this view?

>Hitler himself was rather extreme in this matter but then he was only
>a Corporal without any formal higher education in the field.  His
>opinions on the human evolution science of the time were not
>particularly worse than that of any other politician.  Not any better
>than they are today for that matter but the subject does not come up
>often these days.

Of course. Of what relevance should Hitler be for national socialism?
I mean between 1933-1945 who in Germany cared for what Hitler said? He
was only a marginal figure on the political stage, wasn't he? By no means
could his words be taken as an indicator for national socialism, or
could they?

>>2) What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
>>socialism?

>	As I have pointed out many times, you have it backwards.  Natioal
>Socialism was a part of the NSDAP political stance, platform in
>today's terms, and not the other way around.

WHAT!? My good friend, you have a very vague idea of the nature of a fascist
state. But I'm beginning to understand your thought. You still believe that
communism and national socialism are synonymous. And you have heard of the
communist party being the basis of communist society. This is not the case
with the nazi society. Here we have several unrelated power blocks which
have the common grounds of fascist ideology. We have the NSDAP of course,
but also the SS, in the earlier stages the SA, we have the Gestapo, we
have the NS-government. Why do you think the "shadow ministeries" of the
SS like the RSHA or the WVHA were such big rivals for the Reichsgovernment?
Because they grasped more and more power which originally fell into the
responsibilities of the Reichs ministeries.  Why do you think the SA under
Roehm was annhilated. Because Roehm planned to establish the SA as a
milita which should replace the Wehrmacht as an armed force. Hitler needed
the Wehrmacht, he couldn't tolerate that. Why do you think were the
Gestapo not allowed in the concentration camps? Because the Totenkopfverbaende
guarded jealously their exclusive rights on the camps, and because the SD
started to become a big rival for the official police anyway. It may
surprise you, but by no means were all Nazis Parteigenossen.  Hitler's role
was to carefully balance these power blocks. He did so very successfully and
therefore retained his position as unquestioned Fuehrer till the very end.

But to come back to my original question. You have confirmed that you do not
agree with my opinion that the NSDAP is representative for national socialism,
but you didn't offer any evidence. So please answer my question. Or
alternatively, give some evidence for the NSDAP promoting some _other_
ideology than national socialism. And by the way, since your use of the
word is not quite clear to me, could you please give a definition what
"national socialism" actually is?

>Pro or anti abortion or pro or anti welfare  does not define either the
>Republicans or the Democrats.  They are simply part of the positions of
>the parties along with many other things.

This may be very interesting but has *nothing* to do with the situation
in the 3rd Reich nor is it support for your above claim. And if you assume
that national socialism is a position a party can have amongst others that
you have said something really dramatic which would surprise all historians
very much, and which needs some evidence. Could you please offer some
documents?

>>3) What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?

>What do historians have to do with anything that is still on-going.
>When a subject is dead for 50 years historians no longer have an axe
>to grind.

What are you trying to inger? Are you really saying that a) historians are
not concerned with things connected to the present and b) historians are
not concerend with things past for more than 50 years? Don't be
ridiculous. The discussion on the nature of fascim is not an axe someone
has to grind, but the attempt to find a theoretical basis which helps
explaining the history. Why can't you just admit that you don't know
any historians who have written on that topic. I know that, you know,
everybody knows. Why not admit it?

Or you could always answer my question: what historians to not regard
national socialism as a branch of fascism?

>Consider Alan Greenspan who knows the difference.  Hyeck for another.
>Read some free market economists and learn something for a change.

Oh, no! I really have proofed to you that a definition of fascism with
economical terms alone is not possible. So of what relevance should be
free market economists? And if you try to impress me with names, at
least get them right. It's "Hayek". Go an learn something for a
change. In the meantime you could elaborate on what Hayek has to do
with the topic. When I know your point, we can carry on.

>>4) When will you answer my posting of an official report to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer
>>SS which shows *exactly* that the evacuations to the east were only for the purpose of
>>mass slaughter. This sufficiantly disproves your inane interpretation of the Wannsee-document
>>Till now, you have remaindes suspiciously quiet about that. Well?

>	If you will post it, I will have a look at it.

This really _is_ chuzpah. What do you think did the thread "Giwer's
Wannsee bubbles burst" meant? I did post the article and you stayed
silent because you had no answer. Now you claim that it never existed.
This is really great. But kindhearted as I am, I will regurgitate what
I've written. The text is an official report of an SS platoon leader
to the staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS written in 1942. It reports the
actions of an SS platoon in the Minsk area:

	[...]
	Already on the 4.5. we started to excavate new pits in
	the vicinity of the commander's estate. These works too
	took four days.
	The 11.5 a transport of Jews (1000 head) from Vienna
	arrived at Minsk and was brought directly from the train
	station to the mentioned pits. To achieve this, the platoon
	was placed directly at the pit.
	The 13.5. 8 men supervised the excavation of another pit because
	in near future a further transport of Jews from the Reich is to
	be expected.
	[...]

The routine goes on and on over pages. Jews from all over Europe and
>from  the Reich arrive, are brought to freshly excavated pits, are
"dealt with". After that, extensive weapon cleaning takes place. This
text describes the true nature of the "evacuations" as they are planned
in the Wannsee document. When destruction by work is not possible, then
other means are found. Here they are.

So go ahead, answer my question.

>As for my interpretation of the document, it is hardly in need of
>interpretation.

You are right, your interpretation is rubbish and doesn't need any
serious consideration.

>1)	It speaks for itself needing only to point out that it does not
>really say what some people want to believe it says.

Yes! No matter how hard the "revisionists" try, the Nazis never planned
to re-settle the Jews in the East, the area which they themselves considered
as their essential "Lebensraum".

>2)	It is hardly necessary that there is little evidence that
>anything but workcamps was implemented, that most of it never
>happened.  That means, show me anything other such as sterilization of
>fractional and meritorious Jews who were sterilized.

Wrong. I have just given you evidence that the "evacuations" into the
east were a method of killing thousands. When the shooting became an too
ineffective method, Vernichtungslager were established.
But you still haven't answered the post...

>	Now you have some answers.

No, I don't have any answer. I have one outright lie and lots of unrelated drivel
and evasive maneuvres. I am still waiting for your answers:

1. Where in national socialist writings do you find that the nazis were not racist
   (or "race neutral" if that suits you better)?
2 What is your proof that the ideology if the NSDAP is not representative for national
socialism?
2.1. What _is_ national socialism in your opinion?
3. What historians do not regard nationals socialism as a branch of fascism?
4. What do you say to the document showing that the "evacuations" mentioned
in the Wannsee-document were evacuations into death?

>Just what was your point in misrepresenting what I said to phrase the
>questions the way you did?

We have already played that "misrepresenting" game once. Do you want me to show you again
using your own quotations that I exactly give what you have said?


Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Aug 26 17:33:07 PDT 1996
Article: 60199 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!nntp.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!news.flint.umich.edu!server3.mich.com!aanews.merit.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!Frankfurt.Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem "Ausrottung" Wahnsinn.
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 22:29:12 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 8
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4va4v1$iq4@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ut6cn$q04@newsbf02.news.aol.com><4ut6cn$q04@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4uu90f$qah@grivel.une.edu.au> <4v60pq$2hgk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>Allow me to simply interject that "zunichte machen" is the *exact* literal
>rendering of the component parts of "annihilate".

No, that doesn't work. Man kann eine Absicht zunichte machen, jemandes Plan,
sein Vorhaben, aber nichts Physisches.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 27 07:31:38 PDT 1996
Article: 60253 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question of Density
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 21:33:06 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 41
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>The holohuggers still cannot seem to grasp the economic waste of using
>purportedly stolen money on an extensive train transportation/gas chamber
>system as opposed to execution by shooting and apply the money to the
>2-front war they were fighting.

>The holohuggers claim the nazis were trying to exterminate the jews.
[... and so on.]

As usually the "contradictions" found by "revisionists" arise because the latter
have insufficient historical knowledge:

1. Shooting lots of people in the streets all over western Europe and Germany would
have caused more irritation than the Nazis would have liked. They were not
omnipotent. Clemens August Graf von Galen, for instance, was able to slow down
the euthanasia programme, because he spoke out publically against it and the
Nazis did not dare to touch him because of his popularity. Similar disturbance
would have arised when the Nazis had followed the method suggested by the
"revisionists".

2. Cynical to say, but it is much easier to deal with a very large number of corpses on
a basis of centralisation. This way a limited number of large capacity crematoria was
sufficient, the other way each corpse would have to be transported and removed
individually - at higher cost.

3. "Killing with work". It was economically much more profitable to get the benefits
>from  the slave-work of the victims and to kill them off while pressing money out of
them. The work was not quite so valuable as the WVHA had expected, but the
concentration camps were extremely cost-effective. The SS became rich.

4. When you tell people that you will evacuate them, they will collect and carry their
valuables for you. If the SS had killed their victims in the streets, they would never
have been able to find as many riches as they did. The values collected in the
concentration-camps were unimaginable. Nearly all of the Totenkopfverbaende was
hopellessly corrupted that way, as the verdicts of the SS-courts and Himmler's
preaching "moral pureness" show.

In the end the establishement of concentration camps for the killing seems to be
economically justified...

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 27 12:59:51 PDT 1996
Article: 60329 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Official document concerning the use of gassing lorries. Giwer caught lying again.
Date: 27 Aug 1996 10:17:23 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 180
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To: kmcvay@nizkor.org

"Revisionists" usually find "contradictions" in the history of the
holocaust because they have an insufficient historical knowledge
and simply don't know about the existence of relevant sources. Here
Mr. Giwer complains about the lack of official documentation on gassing
(only imagined by him of course)

	
	[...]
	Were the orders hidden and verbal?  If so, why were the reports
	written?  Would that not violate the same secrecy?

	Then we have the few others regarding A-B.  They are all little 
	bits and pieces out of no where.  They are no different from 
	finding a US government letter referring to having found the 
	purpose of button 38a on the flying saucer but not being able 
	to find anything else about the flying saucer project.
	
        They are, in the chain of command, like finding a dealer 
	talking about side mounted gas tanks on trucks and blaming 
	the manufacturer for deliberately designing them as death traps. 
 
	[...] (news:4vmbgt$sne@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com)


Here is the official documentation requested by him:

Notice from the department II D 3 (motor transport) of the RSHA:
"Technical changes for the special lorries in use and in the
process of production", 5.6.1942
----------------------------------------------------------------

   [...] Since September 1941, for instance, 97,000 were processed
with 3 deployed vehicles without that any defect with the vehicles
occured. The well-known explosion in Kulmhof is to be regarded as
a singular occurence. Its reason was an operating mistake. In order
to avoid such accidents, special orders were given to the concerned
departments. These orders were formulated in a way that the safety
degree was increased considerably.
   Other experiences made up to now suggest following technical changes:

[...]

2.) The load of the vehicles is usually 9-10 per square metre. The 
large Saurer-special vehicles may not be loaded to that degree, not
because they would be overloaded, but because their suitability for
cross-country work would be reduced too much. A reduction of the load
area seems necessary. This is achieved by shortening the coachwork
by ca. 1 metre. The above mentioned difficulties may not be overcome,
as it was pracitce till now, by reducing the number of heads while
loading. In the case of a reduced number of heads, an increased
work time would be necessary, because the empty space has to be filled
with CO too. In contrast to this, with a reduced load area and a
completely filled load space, a shorter work-time is sufficient,
because there is no empty space.
   In a meeting with the producer was pointed out that a shortening
of the coachwork would result in an unfavourable weight balance. It
was emphasized that the front axle would be overstressed. In fact, the
weight is balanced in the way that during operation the load pushes to
the back door and therefore lies there. This means that no additional
weight lies on the front axle.

3.) The connecting hoses between exhaustive pipe and car often corrode 
because their insides are eaten through by araising liquids. To stop
this, the filler pipe is to be moved in the way that the introduction
is from the top to the bottom. This way can avoided that liquids pour in.

4.) In order to allow a the easy cleaning of the vehicle, the floor is
equipped in the centre with a drain which may be shut tightly. The lid
of the drain, which has a diameter of ca. 200-300 mm, has a syphon
type drain pipe, so that thin liquids can flow out during operation.
To avoid blockages, the pipe is to be fitted with a sieve at its top.
When cleaning the vehicle, thick dirt can be washed away through the
large drain. The floor has to slope into the direction of the drain, so
that all liquids will immediately flow to the centre. This avoids 
largely that liquids flow into the pipes.

5.) The observation windows which have till now been set in, may be left
out because they were never used anyway. When producing new vehicles,
much work-time will be saved because the difficulties of setting in and
sealing the windows will fall away.

6.) The lamps need a stronger protection than before. The iron grating
is to be curved so high over the lamps that damaging the lamp panes is
impossible. In practical use it was suggested to remove the lamps
completely because they would never been used. But is has been found out
that the load pushes to the back door when it is closed. This is because
the load presses to the light when it is getting dark. This makes
closing the door more difficult. Further it has been experienced that
there is always an uproar, probably because of the frightening darkness,
when the doors are shut. It is therefore advised to let the lights
burn before and during the first minutes of operation. The lamps are
also of advantage for operations in the night and when cleaning the
inside of the vehicle.

---------
163 Vermerk aus dem Referat II D 3 (Kraftfahrwesen) des RSHA:
"Technische Aenderungen an den im Betrieb eingesetzten und an den
sich in Herstellung befindlichen Spezialwagen", 5.6.1942:

[...] Seit Dezember 1941 wurden beispielsweise mit 3 eingesetzten
Wagen 97000 verarbeitet, ohne dass Maengel an den Fahrzeugen auftraten.
Die bekannte Explosion in Kulmhof ist als Einzelfall zu bewerten.
Ihre Ursache ist auf einen Bedienungsfehler zurueckzufuehren. Zur 
Vermeidung von derartigen Unfaellen ergingen an die betroffenen
Dienststellen besondere Anweisungen. Die Anweisungen wurden so 
gehalten, dass der Sicherheitsgrad erheblich heraufgesetzt wurde.
   Die sonstigen bisher gemachten Erfahrungen lassen folgende
technische Abaenderungen zweckmaessig erscheinen:

[...]

2.) Die Beschickung der Wagen betraegt normalerweise 9-10 pro m2.
Bei den grossraeumigen Saurer-Spezialwagen ist eine Ausnutzung in
dieser Form nicht moeglich, weil dadurch zwar keine Ueberlastung
eintritt, jedoch die Gelaendegaengigkeit sehr herabgemindert wird.
Eine Verkleinerung der Ladeflaeche erscheint notwendig. Sie wird
erreicht durch Verkuerzung des Aufbaus um ca. 1m. Vorstehende
Schwierigkeit ist nicht, wie bisher, dadurch abzustellen, dass man
die Stueckzahl bei der Bestueckung vermindert. Bei einer Verminderung
der Stueckzahl wird naemlich eine laengere Betriebsdauer notwendig,
weil die freien Raeume auch mit CO angefuellt werden muessen. Dagegen
reicht bei einer verkleinerten Ladeflaeche und vollstaendig aus-
gefuelltem laderaum eine erheblich kuerzere Betriebsdauer aus, weil
freie Raeume fehlen.
   In einer Besprechung mit der Herstellerfirma wurde von dieser
Seite darauf hingewiesen, dass eine Verkuerzung des Kastenaufbaus
eine unguenstige Gewichtsverlagerung nach sich zieht. Tatsaechlich
findet aber ungewollt ein Ausgleich in der Gewichtsverteilung dadurch
statt, dass das Ladegut beim Betrieb in dem Streben nach der hinteren
Tuer immer vorwiegend dort liegt. Hierdurch tritt eine zusaetzliche
Belastung der Vorderachse nicht ein.

3.) Die Verbindungsschlaeuche zwischen Auspuff und Wagen rosten
des oefteren durch, da sie im Innern durch anfallende Fluessigkeiten
zerfressen werden. Um dieses zu vermeiden, ist der Einfuellstutzen
nunmehr so zu verlegen, dass eine Einfuehrung von oben nach unten
erfolgt. Dadurch wird ein Einfliessen von Fluessigkeiten vermieden.

4.) Um eine handliche Saeuberung des Fahrzeugs vornehmen zu koennen, ist
der Boden in der Mitte mit einer dicht verschliessbaren Abflussoeffnung
zu versehen. Der Abflussdeckel mit etwa 200 bis 300 mm 0 erhaelt einen
Syphonkruemmer, sodass duenne Fluessigkeit auch waehrend des Betriebs
ablaufen kann. Zur Vermeidung von Verstopfungen ist der Kruemmer oben
mit einem Sieb zu versehen. Dicker Schmutz kann bei der Reinigung des
Wagens durch die grosse Abflussoeffnung fortgespuelt werden. Der Boden
des Fahrzeuges ist zur Abflussoeffnung leicht zu neigen. Hierdurch soll
erreicht werden, dass alle Fluessigkeiten unmittelbar zur Mitte 
abfliessen. Ein Eindringen der Fluessigkeiten in die Roehren wird
somit weitgehendst unterbunden.

5.) Die bisher angebrachten Beobachtungsfenster koennen entfallen, da
sie praktisch nie benutzt werden. Bei der Fertigung weiterer Fahrzeuge
wird durch den Fortfall der Fenster mit Bezug auf die schwierige
Anbringung und dichte Abschliessung derselben erhebliche Arbeitszeit
eingespart.

6.) Die Beleuchtungskoerper sind staerker als bisher gegen Zerstoerungen
zu sichern. Das Eisengitterwerk ist so hoch gewoelbt ueber den Lampen
anzubringen, dass eine Beschaedigung der Lampenfenster nicht mehr 
moeglich ist. Aus der Praxis wurde vorgeschlagen, die Lampen entfallen
zu lassen, da sie angeblich nie gebraucht werden. Es wurde aber in
Erfahrung gebracht, dass bei Schliessen der hinteren Tuer und somit
Draengen der Ladung nach der Tuer erfolgte [sic!]. Dieses ist darauf
zurueckzufuehren, dass die Ladung bei eintretender Dunkelheit sich nach
dem Licht draengt. Es erschwert das Einklinken der Tuer. Ferner wurde
festgestellt, dass der auftretende Laerm wohl mit Bezug auf die
Unheimlichkeit des Dunkels immer dann einsetzt, wenn sich die Tueren
schliessen. Es ist deshalb zweckmaessig, dass die Beleuchtung vor und
waehrend der ersten Minuten des Bestriebs eingeschaltet wird. Auch
ist die Beleuchtung bei Nachtbetrieb und beim Reinigen des Wageninnern
von Vorteil.

Quelle: BA R 58/871

--------
_Die Ermordung der europaeischen Juden: Eine umfassende Dokumentation
des Holocaust 1941-1945_, ed.: Peter Langerich, Piper: Muenchen, 
Zuerich, 1984, pp. 355f.




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 27 12:59:52 PDT 1996
Article: 60330 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Official document concerning the use of gassing lorries. Giwer caught lying again.
Date: 27 Aug 1996 10:16:45 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 180
Message-ID: <4vuhud$is9@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pcub59.ub.uni-marburg.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: kmcvay

"Revisionists" usually find "contradictions" in the history of the
holocaust because they have an insufficient historical knowledge
and simply don't know about the existence of relevant sources. Here
Mr. Giwer complains about the lack of official documentation on gassing
(only imagined by him of course)

	
	[...]
	Were the orders hidden and verbal?  If so, why were the reports
	written?  Would that not violate the same secrecy?

	Then we have the few others regarding A-B.  They are all little 
	bits and pieces out of no where.  They are no different from 
	finding a US government letter referring to having found the 
	purpose of button 38a on the flying saucer but not being able 
	to find anything else about the flying saucer project.
	
        They are, in the chain of command, like finding a dealer 
	talking about side mounted gas tanks on trucks and blaming 
	the manufacturer for deliberately designing them as death traps. 
 
	[...] (news:4vmbgt$sne@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com)


Here is the official documentation requested by him:

Notice from the department II D 3 (motor transport) of the RSHA:
"Technical changes for the special lorries in use and in the
process of production", 5.6.1942
----------------------------------------------------------------

   [...] Since September 1941, for instance, 97,000 were processed
with 3 deployed vehicles without that any defect with the vehicles
occured. The well-known explosion in Kulmhof is to be regarded as
a singular occurence. Its reason was an operating mistake. In order
to avoid such accidents, special orders were given to the concerned
departments. These orders were formulated in a way that the safety
degree was increased considerably.
   Other experiences made up to now suggest following technical changes:

[...]

2.) The load of the vehicles is usually 9-10 per square metre. The 
large Saurer-special vehicles may not be loaded to that degree, not
because they would be overloaded, but because their suitability for
cross-country work would be reduced too much. A reduction of the load
area seems necessary. This is achieved by shortening the coachwork
by ca. 1 metre. The above mentioned difficulties may not be overcome,
as it was pracitce till now, by reducing the number of heads while
loading. In the case of a reduced number of heads, an increased
work time would be necessary, because the empty space has to be filled
with CO too. In contrast to this, with a reduced load area and a
completely filled load space, a shorter work-time is sufficient,
because there is no empty space.
   In a meeting with the producer was pointed out that a shortening
of the coachwork would result in an unfavourable weight balance. It
was emphasized that the front axle would be overstressed. In fact, the
weight is balanced in the way that during operation the load pushes to
the back door and therefore lies there. This means that no additional
weight lies on the front axle.

3.) The connecting hoses between exhaustive pipe and car often corrode 
because their insides are eaten through by araising liquids. To stop
this, the filler pipe is to be moved in the way that the introduction
is from the top to the bottom. This way can avoided that liquids pour in.

4.) In order to allow a the easy cleaning of the vehicle, the floor is
equipped in the centre with a drain which may be shut tightly. The lid
of the drain, which has a diameter of ca. 200-300 mm, has a syphon
type drain pipe, so that thin liquids can flow out during operation.
To avoid blockages, the pipe is to be fitted with a sieve at its top.
When cleaning the vehicle, thick dirt can be washed away through the
large drain. The floor has to slope into the direction of the drain, so
that all liquids will immediately flow to the centre. This avoids 
largely that liquids flow into the pipes.

5.) The observation windows which have till now been set in, may be left
out because they were never used anyway. When producing new vehicles,
much work-time will be saved because the difficulties of setting in and
sealing the windows will fall away.

6.) The lamps need a stronger protection than before. The iron grating
is to be curved so high over the lamps that damaging the lamp panes is
impossible. In practical use it was suggested to remove the lamps
completely because they would never been used. But is has been found out
that the load pushes to the back door when it is closed. This is because
the load presses to the light when it is getting dark. This makes
closing the door more difficult. Further it has been experienced that
there is always an uproar, probably because of the frightening darkness,
when the doors are shut. It is therefore advised to let the lights
burn before and during the first minutes of operation. The lamps are
also of advantage for operations in the night and when cleaning the
inside of the vehicle.

---------
163 Vermerk aus dem Referat II D 3 (Kraftfahrwesen) des RSHA:
"Technische Aenderungen an den im Betrieb eingesetzten und an den
sich in Herstellung befindlichen Spezialwagen", 5.6.1942:

[...] Seit Dezember 1941 wurden beispielsweise mit 3 eingesetzten
Wagen 97000 verarbeitet, ohne dass Maengel an den Fahrzeugen auftraten.
Die bekannte Explosion in Kulmhof ist als Einzelfall zu bewerten.
Ihre Ursache ist auf einen Bedienungsfehler zurueckzufuehren. Zur 
Vermeidung von derartigen Unfaellen ergingen an die betroffenen
Dienststellen besondere Anweisungen. Die Anweisungen wurden so 
gehalten, dass der Sicherheitsgrad erheblich heraufgesetzt wurde.
   Die sonstigen bisher gemachten Erfahrungen lassen folgende
technische Abaenderungen zweckmaessig erscheinen:

[...]

2.) Die Beschickung der Wagen betraegt normalerweise 9-10 pro m2.
Bei den grossraeumigen Saurer-Spezialwagen ist eine Ausnutzung in
dieser Form nicht moeglich, weil dadurch zwar keine Ueberlastung
eintritt, jedoch die Gelaendegaengigkeit sehr herabgemindert wird.
Eine Verkleinerung der Ladeflaeche erscheint notwendig. Sie wird
erreicht durch Verkuerzung des Aufbaus um ca. 1m. Vorstehende
Schwierigkeit ist nicht, wie bisher, dadurch abzustellen, dass man
die Stueckzahl bei der Bestueckung vermindert. Bei einer Verminderung
der Stueckzahl wird naemlich eine laengere Betriebsdauer notwendig,
weil die freien Raeume auch mit CO angefuellt werden muessen. Dagegen
reicht bei einer verkleinerten Ladeflaeche und vollstaendig aus-
gefuelltem laderaum eine erheblich kuerzere Betriebsdauer aus, weil
freie Raeume fehlen.
   In einer Besprechung mit der Herstellerfirma wurde von dieser
Seite darauf hingewiesen, dass eine Verkuerzung des Kastenaufbaus
eine unguenstige Gewichtsverlagerung nach sich zieht. Tatsaechlich
findet aber ungewollt ein Ausgleich in der Gewichtsverteilung dadurch
statt, dass das Ladegut beim Betrieb in dem Streben nach der hinteren
Tuer immer vorwiegend dort liegt. Hierdurch tritt eine zusaetzliche
Belastung der Vorderachse nicht ein.

3.) Die Verbindungsschlaeuche zwischen Auspuff und Wagen rosten
des oefteren durch, da sie im Innern durch anfallende Fluessigkeiten
zerfressen werden. Um dieses zu vermeiden, ist der Einfuellstutzen
nunmehr so zu verlegen, dass eine Einfuehrung von oben nach unten
erfolgt. Dadurch wird ein Einfliessen von Fluessigkeiten vermieden.

4.) Um eine handliche Saeuberung des Fahrzeugs vornehmen zu koennen, ist
der Boden in der Mitte mit einer dicht verschliessbaren Abflussoeffnung
zu versehen. Der Abflussdeckel mit etwa 200 bis 300 mm 0 erhaelt einen
Syphonkruemmer, sodass duenne Fluessigkeit auch waehrend des Betriebs
ablaufen kann. Zur Vermeidung von Verstopfungen ist der Kruemmer oben
mit einem Sieb zu versehen. Dicker Schmutz kann bei der Reinigung des
Wagens durch die grosse Abflussoeffnung fortgespuelt werden. Der Boden
des Fahrzeuges ist zur Abflussoeffnung leicht zu neigen. Hierdurch soll
erreicht werden, dass alle Fluessigkeiten unmittelbar zur Mitte 
abfliessen. Ein Eindringen der Fluessigkeiten in die Roehren wird
somit weitgehendst unterbunden.

5.) Die bisher angebrachten Beobachtungsfenster koennen entfallen, da
sie praktisch nie benutzt werden. Bei der Fertigung weiterer Fahrzeuge
wird durch den Fortfall der Fenster mit Bezug auf die schwierige
Anbringung und dichte Abschliessung derselben erhebliche Arbeitszeit
eingespart.

6.) Die Beleuchtungskoerper sind staerker als bisher gegen Zerstoerungen
zu sichern. Das Eisengitterwerk ist so hoch gewoelbt ueber den Lampen
anzubringen, dass eine Beschaedigung der Lampenfenster nicht mehr 
moeglich ist. Aus der Praxis wurde vorgeschlagen, die Lampen entfallen
zu lassen, da sie angeblich nie gebraucht werden. Es wurde aber in
Erfahrung gebracht, dass bei Schliessen der hinteren Tuer und somit
Draengen der Ladung nach der Tuer erfolgte [sic!]. Dieses ist darauf
zurueckzufuehren, dass die Ladung bei eintretender Dunkelheit sich nach
dem Licht draengt. Es erschwert das Einklinken der Tuer. Ferner wurde
festgestellt, dass der auftretende Laerm wohl mit Bezug auf die
Unheimlichkeit des Dunkels immer dann einsetzt, wenn sich die Tueren
schliessen. Es ist deshalb zweckmaessig, dass die Beleuchtung vor und
waehrend der ersten Minuten des Bestriebs eingeschaltet wird. Auch
ist die Beleuchtung bei Nachtbetrieb und beim Reinigen des Wageninnern
von Vorteil.

Quelle: BA R 58/871

--------
_Die Ermordung der europaeischen Juden: Eine umfassende Dokumentation
des Holocaust 1941-1945_, ed.: Peter Langerich, Piper: Muenchen, 
Zuerich, 1984, pp. 355f.




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Aug 27 12:59:53 PDT 1996
Article: 60343 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The question of transport costs. "Revisionists" prove another time their ignorance.
Date: 27 Aug 1996 10:29:53 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 125
Message-ID: <4vuin1$j70@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pcub59.ub.uni-marburg.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: kmcvay@nizkor.org

In one of the last threads the question have come up, why the 
Jews were shipped all over Europe and not be shot on the spot. It
is difficult to understand why this should be an argument against
the historicity of the holocaust, but the "unclarity" stems as
usual from the historic ignorance of the "revisionists". The costs
for the tranpsort were to be paid by the victims, and these had to
pay a much larger sum than the actual costs. The rest were the gains
of Gestapo and SS.

Source:
------

33. The Gestapo calculates deportation costs

Secret State Police			Wuerzburg, the 10th July 1943
Staatspolizeileitstele Nuernberg Fuerth
External Department Wuerzburg
B. Nr. II B 4 - 3320/43g. - Fre.

			
 				Balance

On the 17th June 1943 were removed from the area of responsibility
of the external state police department Wurzburg:

57 Jews for transference to the east; further
7 Jews moved their domicile on the same day to Theresienstadt.
In order to cover eventual costs, those 64 Jews paid 
(60,- RM each) to the external department Wuerzburg.............3840,- RM
Spent were according to the following figure....................443.65 RM
Therfore a sum of..............................................3396.65 RM
is left.
To the regional headquarters of the state police Nuernberg Fuerth
(Kri.Komm Nacht) the following sum was paid for passing on to the
Theresienstadt administration and for the 7 Jews moved to
Theresienstadt (50,- RM each)....................................350,- RM
Travelling bill of KrimSekr. Keil from the 17.6. to the 20.6.43
(details attached)...............................................69.30 RM
Travelling bill of KrimSekr. Gundelach from the 17.6 to the 
19.6.43 (details attached).......................................17.70 RM
Costs of the bailiff (handing over of the orders for the 
confiscation of the property of the 7 Jews transferred to
Theresienstadt)...................................................6.65 RM
								--------
								 443.65 
RM


						(signature illegible)
  						 Kriminalinspektor



Commentary: The Jews paid dearly for their transportation to the east
(at that time to the extermination camp Auschwitz) or to Theresienstadt.
The Gestapo kept a big profit. [...] The 350 RM paid to Theresienstadt
can also be counted as gain which was transferred from one Gestapo
office to the next. The sum to be paid for the Reichsbahn (an unknown
amount) is a further cost factor.



33. Die Gestapo verrechnet Deportationskosten

Geheime Staatspolizei			Wuerzburg, den 10. Juli 1943.
Staatspolizeileitstelle Nuernberg-Fuerth
Aussendienststelle Wuerzburg
B. Nr. II B4 - 3320/43g. - Fre.

		
				Abrechnung

am 17. Juni 1943 wurden aus dem Dienstbereich der Staatspolizei-
Aussendienststelle Wuerzburg
57 Juden nach dem Osten zur Abwanderung gebracht, weitere
7 Juden verlegten am gleichen Tage ihren Wohnsitz nach
Theresienstadt.
Zur Deckung der evtl. anfallenden Unkosten wurden von
diesen 64 Juden (a 60,- RM)......................................3840,- 
RM
bei der Aussendienststelle Wuerzburg eingezahlt. Ausgegeben
wurden laut nachfolgender Aufstellung............................443.65 
RM
so dass ein Restbetrag in Hoehe von.............................3396.35 
RM
verbleibt.

An die Staatspolizeileitstelle Nuernberg-Fuerth (Kri.Komm. Nacht)
wurden zur Weitergabe an die Verwaltungsbehoerde Theresienstadt fuer
die nach Theresienstadt abgewanderten 7 Juden (a 50,- RM).........350,- 
RM
abgefuehrt.
Reisekostenrechnung des KrimSekr. Keil vom 17.6. bis 20.6.43
(Einzelheiten sind aus der Anlage ersichtlich)....................69.30 
RM
Reisekostenrechnung des KrimSekr. Gundelach vom 17.6. bis 19.6.43
(siehe Anlage)....................................................17.70 
RM
Kosten fuer den Gerichtsvollzieher (Aushaendigung der Vermoegensein-
ziehungsverfuegungen fuer die 7 Juden, die ihren Wohnsitz nach
Theresienstadt verlegten).........................................6.65 RM
								 ------
								 443.65 
RM
						
						(Unterschrift 
unleserlich)
						   Kriminalinspektor

Quelle: 1063-PS. Unveroeffentlicht. Photo IfZ.

Kommentar: Die Juden bezahlten ihre Verfrachtung nach dem Osten (damals
ins Vernichtungslager Auschwitz) oder nach Theresienstadt teuer, und
die Gestapo steckte einen hohen Gewinn ein. [...] Zum Gewinnbetrag sind
auch die 350 in Theresienstadt abgelieferten Reichsmark zu rechnen, die
von einer zur anderen Dienststelle der Gestapo wechselten, waehrend die
an die Reichsbahn zu zahlenden Fahrtkosten (in unbekannter Hoehe) als
weitere Spesen zu bedenken sind.

--------------------
H.G. Adler: _Die verheimlichte Wahrheit: Theresienstaedter Dokumente_,
Tuebingen: Mohr, 1958, pp. 75f.





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Aug 28 07:32:14 PDT 1996
Article: 60539 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: they are on the run
Date: 27 Aug 1996 10:13:36 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4vuhog$is9@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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To: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com

Sorry for mailing you directly against your explicit wish, but
regarding your atrocious claims and lies, I have the right that
you take notice of my post and answer me.

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	Strange to me but it appears the holohuggers are on the run.

Sorry, but I had to chuckle when I read *this*. Am I allowed to remind
you of yours running away from the thread "some more questions...". If
you have the guts to expose your ignorance you may continue and answer
"Coward Giwer running away (again and again and again).

>	We finally can kick them out of our newsgroup if we work at it.
>	We really do not want them here but we can tolertate their 
>       intruision into this newsgroup.   
>	Holohuggers are not wanted but thay are tolarereted.

You have to decide. Either "kick them out finally" or "tolerate them". 
You can't have the cake and eat it.

[...]

>Holohuggers are the onle people who have harrassesd anyone and they
>are the only amimals in need of taming.  
>Not one revsisionist has ever attacked a holohugger and that is fact.

Are you really to dense to see the contradiction in these two sentences?
Or the contradiction in the first sentence?

[...]

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Aug 28 12:05:52 PDT 1996
Article: 60606 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Conrad's translation and the criticism on Ehrlich
Date: 28 Aug 1996 10:56:15 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 114
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
[...]
>And Abels should think a bit before to write tons of insults. In all the
>cases you play the same arrogant game, despite the datas are quite clear 
>for a while. Nobody here need to know very good german to understand 
>that matter: it was said by Jamie McCarthy that the word has 2 meanings, 
>eradication (wipe out) and extermination, but that a more accurate 
>definition is extermination when the word is applied to the livings. 

This has not been denied by me. My point of criticism is less the 
translation into the English language, but that "revisionists" try to 
manipulate the meaning of the word "ausrotten" in a way that Himmler's 
speech and the speeches of other Nazis completely change their meaning. 
When Himmler said that the Jews were to be "ausgerottet" he meant that 
they all were to be killed. This meaning can be found out when standard 
dictionaries and a decent knowledge of German are aplied. No 
"revisionist" word games will change that meaning. That "revisionists" 
continue to insist on a refuted argument shows only their, I say it 
again, infantile intellect.

[...]
>since it was said by several others. However, when someone use his 
>common sense with a dictionnary, rather than to argument you 
>immediatelly advise him to learn german correctly. When a guy know 
>German reasonnably like Ehrlich, you jump on few othograph faults, 
>as if it would 'show' your point.

The ortographical errors were the errors I did _not_ point out. His 
"translations" sometimes completely change the meaning of the text. This 
discussion is not a language class, the mistakes which are made in this 
discussion are not fruitful for learning. The translations put forward in 
this discussion are put forward to make a point. They claim validity. 
When Mr. Ehrlich is not able to produce a correct translation, he should 
away from trying. My task and my point is not to teach Mr. Ehrlich the 
German language but to warn others that his translations are not to be 
trusted. Apart from that, if somebody manages to place over 20 
grammatical and semantic faults in the translation of 6 short sentences, 
you can hardly speak of a "few" mistakes.

>When a guy know german perfectly, as this guy (Conrad) than you claim 
>that his opinion is worthless because 'he falsified a translation'.

In contrary to Mr. McFee I believe that Mr. Conrad knows German 
perfectly. As I have said, his manipulation is cunning and requires a 
certain competence with the language. Yes, Mr. Conrad's opinion is 
worthless when he falsifies a translation, because his contributions 
cannot be trusted.

[...]
>>Beaulieu ist eine solche grenzenlose Dumpfbacke,  dass er nicht mal >>erkennt, dass er jetzt Englisch und Deutsch durcheinanderbrinkt. 
>>Irgendwie typisch fuer den infantilen Intellekt der "Revisionisten".

>My english is not so bad when I'm taking the time to revise. Personnal 
>attacks just show an immature character. La bave du crapeau glisse sur 
>le pelage de la blanche colombe (ou plutot du paon ici)

Der Hund bellt, die Karawane zieht weiter. I did not comment your 
English, but your insisting on the discussion of details of German 
although you have admitted that you have inferior knowledge of this 
language. To remind you of the discussion:

1. the German meaning of "ausrotten" has been discussed
2. the "revisionist" interpretation of this word has been shown 
unsupportable, therefore they tried to introduce the argument that 
"ausrotten" does not mean "to kill everyobody", because "exterminate" 
does not have this meaning. (strange logic)
3. this argument has been refuted sufficiently by native speakers of 
English.
4. Mr. Beaulieu has lost all threads and does not understand my point 
that only German words can be synonyms of other German words.

This shows sufficiently that Mr. Beaulieu's intellect perhaps doesn't 
meet the demands of this discussion. 

[...]
>Now you claim that Himmler didn't try to explain his use of Ausrotten 
>with  the word Evacuation, but... the opposite! And that the word 
>'evakuieren',  a word for which there's not 2 definitions, take suddenly 
>a new sense, not  eradication, which is the closest synonym, but 
>extermination. By which  miracle?

Thank's again for showing that you do not know German. All German 
documents of that time dealing with the mass-killings on the Jews have 
the tendency not to take the explicity word into the mouth. This is, why 
the meaning of the Wannsee document is criticised by the "revisionists". 
You will find a note by the RSHA somewhere in this newsgroup which 
describes perfectly clear the purpose of the gassing-lorries. Even the 
removing of the body fluids during operation and the panic of the victims 
when they push to the back door is discussed in detail. Yet nowhere is 
mentioned that "the load" are living human beings. They are referred to 
as if they were pieces of shipment. That may have psychological reasons, 
I don't know. But it also shows the meaning of euphemism. When Himmler 
speaks of "evacuation" he knows as well as the audience that he doesn't 
mean "resettlement". What he is referring to, is the common usage of the 
word in Nazi documents. Therefore, if you actually _have read_ the 
sources, the meaning is clear beyond discussion.

Now, there would be means to support your opinion. The first method would 
be to offer documents which show that there actually _were_ Jewish 
settlements in the east.

The second method would be to take the simple sentence "Die Juden wurden 
ausgerottet" and to give it to many native speakers of German. Ask them 
for a paraphrase. Give your selection of the group, the paraphrases and 
your conclusion to this newsgroup. Then you would have "data" to put 
forward. Your free-wheeling interpretation of dictionaries does not count 
as "scientific" method.

Mind you, it's you who wants to make the point, not me. Therefore don't 
ask _me_ for such a survey. "He who makes the claim has to give the 
evidence."

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 29 10:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 60826 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!mcsun!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!irz401!uni-erlangen.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 19:27:51 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50464h$ag7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

[... I wrote]
>> What I am really puzzled about is, that you and the other "revisionists"
>> have started to be so quiet about the piece of translation offered by
>> Conrad. Don't you have any remarks on this?

[...]
> In your claim it is ridicoulous to say that Himmler bring back one of the two
> meaning of Ausrottung (eradication) to 'evacuation', the first word, but it is
> 'logical' to say that he bring back the first word, a word for which I never eared
> anyone who claim that it has a dual meaning in any dictionnary, to the non 'evacuation'
> meaning of Ausrottung. Beautifull.

Either Mr. Beaulieu is deliberately diffusing what has been said, or he is too dense to
understand what has been said. To clarify, In my critique on Conrad's "translation" I
did *not* discuss the semantic field of "ausrotten" *nor* did I say that "Evakuation" does
mean "ausrotten". What I was pointing out was that Mr. Conrad qualified the term
"ausrotten" by adding "as an ethnic group" (or something like that) This changes the
meaning of "ausrotten" from its original sense as "killing all of them physically" to a
literal sense. Conrad implies that the Jewish people will no longer exist, wheras the
individual Jews will lead on their life - something Himmler has definitely *not* said.
Mr. Beaulieu's fumbeling around with dictionaries of a language he doesn't understand
won't change that.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 29 10:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 60832 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!irz401!uni-erlangen.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Presence here of Non-jewish Holohuggers
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 19:49:19 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5047cp$ag7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <5006lu$lag@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
[...]
>In this way, the existence of non-jewish holohuggers on alt.revisionism
>really affirms the fact of jewish money-power, as we witness the odd and
>unnatural spectacle of goyim (Europeans) carrying the flag for another
>people's myth -- and even one that serves to undermine the survival of
>their own people.  Such strange things can be achieved only with
>money-power.

Oh really? Tell me where to sign up, I really could use some more money.
And, er, could you please explain the part that not lying about history
does "undermine the survival" of my own people? Thank you.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 29 10:50:53 PDT 1996
Article: 60838 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mcsun!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!irz401!uni-erlangen.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holohoax numbers are too pat
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 19:14:16 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>You ever notice how "clean" the Holocaust numbers are?
>12 million people killed.
>6 million non-jews.
[...]
>Using nice round numbers sticks in people's minds better.  Good propaganda
>technique.

Nope. It has only to do with historiographical honesty (a word unknown to "revisionists")
When the sources are not accurate enough to give precise numbers, a real historian
will not invent details (as a "revisionist" would) but will give rounded numbers. This does
not mean that historians say *exactly* 12, 6, whatever millions have died.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 29 10:50:54 PDT 1996
Article: 60861 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!mcsun!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!irz401!uni-erlangen.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 19:43:08 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <504716$ag7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4vjshq$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com><4v3urr$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <32187EF5.2610@gryn.org> <4vbnne$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4vr3j6$3n2a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
[...]
BTW, how could a person control a newsgroup when he is scared so shitless of
>his "opponents" that he can't even answer them?  What a pathetic creature.

Indeed. I have noticed that I too have been honoured with being ignored by him. I
have tried everything to beat an answer out of him, including calling him "coward" -
all in vain, only the sound of silence (where is his manly pride?) Direct mailing
didn't help either, he simply stated that he doesn't wish personal mails by me. He
didn't even try to insult me. Strange, the only thing I can conclude is that he
is scared shitless of me. Pity, he was such a light afternoon entertainment...

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 29 12:21:10 PDT 1996
Article: 60878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mcsun!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!irz401!uni-erlangen.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoax revealed:  "Extermination" orders never found
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 19:09:52 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 54
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50452p$ag7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>The missing extermination order supposedly issued by Hitler have never
>been found, despite the Holocausters' claims.

*BZZZT* Caught lying again... No historian describing the Holocaust has ever
written that there was a written order by Hitler.

>This consistutes a remarkable gap in Holocaust evidence.

It would be nice if there were actually a written order by Hitler, but its lack is by
no means a "remarkable gap in Holocaust evidence". Hitler had a rather
unbeaurocratic style of governing and there are very little written orders by
him anyway, regarding the extermination of Jews or other issues. This may
stem from his being very short-sighted. But what we have, is e.g. a passage
>from  Goebbles' diary (12.2.1942):

   The Fuehrer states again the he is determined to finish off the Jews in Europe
   recklessly. Here one must not have sentimental traits. The Jews deserve the
   catastrophe they experience today. With the destruction of our enemies they
   will experience their own destruction. We must accelerate this process with
   cold recklessness. Doing this we will offer the suffering humanity which has
   been tortured for millenia an invaluable service. [1]

Or an order by Martin Borman, given the 11. July 1943:

   Concerns: Dealing with the Jewish question. By order of the Fuehrer I state:
   When dealing with the Jewish question  in public, a discussion of a future
   total solution must not take place. It is only permitted to say that all Jews
   are used for appropriate labour service. [2]

Such quotations document sufficiently that Hitler was involved in the Holocaust,
or that he was at least informed.

[...]
>"No documents of a plan for exterminating the Jews have ever been found,
>he added, because perhaps none ever existed."

>Leon Poliakov, Harvest of Hate (New York: Holocaust Library, 1979), p.
>108.

I don't know, but why do I have problems trusting this quotation? Is it, because
"revisionists" have so often proofed being dishonest? I really wonder what the
next passage says...

Nele

------

[1] Wolfgang Neugebauer: "Gab es einen schriftlichen Befehl zur Judenvernichtung?"
in _Wahrheit und Auschwitzluege: zur Bekaempfung "revisionistischer" Propaganda_,
Hrsg.: Brigitte Bailer-Galanda u.a., Wien: Deuticke, 1995, p.127.

[2] _Nationalsozialistische Massentoetungen durch Giftgas: eine Dokumentation_, Hrsg.:
Eugen Kogon u.a., Frankfurt/M.: Fischer, 1989, p. 23.


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 30 08:39:54 PDT 1996
Article: 60962 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: 28 Aug 1996 11:01:56 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <5018v4$djp@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4v3urr$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <32187EF5.2610@gryn.org> <4vbnne$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4vek03$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4vhir1$r5a@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4vjshq$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4vpdvn$7vj@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4vqv9d$ai1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>[Mr. Giwer]
>>>Sorry about that but I have admissions by the major paritcipants that
>>>I do control this Newsgroup.  If you would first get them to agree
>>>that I do not and have them post to the contrary, then we can start
>>>over.  
>
>>Er, excuse me, where in the above lines do you find me denying that you 
>>"control" this newsgroup? Do you know that there are training programs 
>>to help you with your dyslexia?

>	Then explain it to Alec pre-editting that is.  

No, no, Mr. Giwer. It can be sufficiently explained with your dyslexia. 
If I am allowed to quote my humble self:

      [I wrote (do you read, Mr. Giwer, _I_):]
      Oh, do you? Would you care to let go the levers of
      power for a moment and to reply to "RE:Some other
      questions Giwer doesn't dare to answer."?

And to ask again: "Where in these lines do you find me denying that you 
"control" this newsgroup?" You could even say that I admit you 
are controlling this newsgroup. Do you know that there are training 
programs to help you with your dyslexia?

Nele





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 30 08:39:55 PDT 1996
Article: 61046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!Frankfurt.Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 96 16:37:04 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <506gg9$28s@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References:  <6$P5oOev109N065yn@login.dknet.dk> <3218666d.328313619@news.inetport.com> <500m75$4j3@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>         Individuals are not organizations.  If you knew anything about
>>> organizing people, in this case thousands of them, you would know the
>>> effort required and the huge paper trail that would be left.

>>Like the one that exists?

>	2 or 3 questionable scraps of paper does not replace thousands of
>clear and unambiguous documents.

My, my, Mr. Giwer. You know perfectly well that we have that "huge paper trail", since
I have pushed your nose into it a couple of times. That you haven't read the sources
is a completely different game.

Why don't you give up your childish game. You should have realised by now that there are
very few people with a cognitive capacity as low as yours. Nobody falls for your helpless
lies.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Aug 30 14:12:59 PDT 1996
Article: 61096 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!jolt.pagesat.net!fsc.fujitsu.com!agate!howland.erols.net!Frankfurt.Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INEVITABLE
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 96 16:39:52 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <506glg$28s@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>	The demise of the Holocaust story as fact is inevitable. It is on
>it's way to becoming the rout of the millennia. Nothing can hold it
>back. As sure as the tides come and go, the big lie is on the verge of
>global exposure.

Oh, yes, you are right Mr. Moran. More and more books about holocaust
deniers are published and it is really only a matter of time when "revisionism"
will become a new area of historiography. Then their lying will be exposed
and analysed more thoroughly than ever.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Aug 31 13:42:21 PDT 1996
Article: 61276 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 31 Aug 1996 15:20:26 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <509l7q$5r@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>It seems as though everytime I read something regarding Julius >Streicher, he is invariably referred to as a "pornographer".  
[...]
>After having reviewed 3 biographies of the man, as well as the 
>documents offered by the Nuremberg Kangaroo Court, I was unable 
>to find even ONE article which could be considered >pornographic"?  This being the case, I wonder WHY he is always
>accused of this particularly scurrilous charge?  
[and so on]

 Yet another "revisionist" playing historian. Ok. I will
explain the tools of the trade to you. You tried to verify a
claim, namely Streicher being a pornographer. Therefore you have
to look at the sources. That means the biographies are 
not of much use as primary material. The Nuremberg documents?
You have to ask yourself whether Streicher was accused of being
a pornographer. Was he? No, he wasn't. Therfore the evidence put
forward in the trial is probably not of much use for your
question either. But if you really _had_ read the three 
biographies and not only lied about that, you would have found
out that the "Stuermer" was Streichers outlet. Bingo. Find out
a handful copies of the time _before_ Streicher was kicked out
and you will have enough data. 

But you cannot argue that Streicher was not pornographer just 
because you looked into the wrong sources.

Nele 

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