The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/a/abels.nele/1996/abels.0796


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Jul  3 15:06:09 PDT 1996
Article: 48001 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Whop, whop! Nazis were not racist!?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 22:58:34 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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---------------------------------------------------
Extra, extra! Nazis NOT racist, as Famous holocaust
researcher tells. Read all about it!
---------------------------------------------------

[Masterhistorian Matt "I've read'em all" Giwer claims:]

>>sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:
[...]
>>Please excuse me if my explanation is not flawless, but as I understand
>>it, the main defining thesis of National Socialism, as espoused by Adolf
>>Hitler, is that human interaction is ultimately a racial struggle.  In
>>this struggle are, at one end, the Aryan race, which according to National
>>Socialist philosophy, is the highest embodiment of the human form, and at
>>the other end is the Jewish race.  A number of lesser races are in between.

>	You are completely and totally wrong so there is no reason to go any
>further.
>	I can not seriously consider that any rational person would attribute
>everything that you have recounted much less anyone believing it.

   If I interpret the strange English of the second sentence correctly, Mr.
Giwer is flatly denying that national socialism had the concept of competing
races and anti-semitism. A daring point of view, indeed! Please compare
another of Mr. Giwer's many opinions, which he wrote a couple of weeks ago
in a response to me:

>[Giwer answered]
>> The superior race gimmick was an idea of Nazism. It was not part of
>> Fascism. The closest Mussolini got to it was waxing eloquent on the
         (Re: 163 atoms of history: The Man and the Terms, 17 Jun 1996)

   He seems to have changed his point of view a bit, doesn't he? Well, it
doesn't really matter, since it's only op-ed format anyway, and therfore:

**********************************************************************
Mr. Giwer's contributions are purely subjective and entirely emotional
**********************************************************************

   Needless to say that Mr. Giwer neither sees the necessity to support this
inane claim by any evidence, nor to point out, _why_ the above description
should be wrong. Never mind, nobody would have expected something different.

   This is not the first time Mr. Giwer lands on his belly when messing
around with historical terms. I would not go so far, as to say that the idea of
racial competition is the main defining point of national socialism, but it
is without doubt one of the most important points. Apart from that, this
aspect has been depicted very accurately by the first writer. Indeed, the
Nazis saw "the Jew" was seen as an antithesis to the idealized "Aryan".
While the first was the negative principle of cultural destruction, the
second was the positive principle of cultural construction. "The Jew" may
not be fitted easily in the qualitative hierarchy of race. Although he
was regarded as inferior by the Nazis, he was also attributed with quasi
diabolical powers which made him incredibly dangerous. The Nazis did regard
no other race per se as nearly as dangerous, but only by the infiltration by
"the Jew". Therefore, the symmetric picture laid out by the first author
is entirely correct. I really would like to support this point by quotations
>from  "Mein Kampf", but due to censorship, it is nearly impossible to
obtain a copy here in Germany. But I can say that, when I read the German
1934 edition in Britain, I found numerous passages exactly stating the
above view. Jäckel has argued in "Hitler's Weltanschauung" that the
extreme anti-semitism was the extreme anti-semitism was the only consisting
doctrine in an entirely fuzzy and ungraspable amalgam of irrational and
unsystematic ideas. Thus it had a predominant position in the NS "philosophy",
but more important was the lack of consistency itself which made the
national socialism an ideal instrument for grasping power. Yet in the
insanity of racism lay also the source of the destruction of the nazis
because it drove Hitler into the catastrophe of war against the Soviet
Union.

  The question remains, why Mr. Giwer tries to falsify the identity of
fascist ideology. Could it be that he tries to make this ideology
representable because he sympathizes with many of of its aspects, as e.g.
the leading role of a minority elite?

Nele





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Jul  3 16:42:16 PDT 1996
Article: 48045 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question:  How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 22:42:36 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>I AM RIGHT!  I AM GIWER!  Proof is irrelevant.  Documentation is irrelevant.
>>Reasons are irrelevant.  You will be a-spam-inated.
[...]
>	As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>work.  It is race neutral.

It is correct that communism and national socialism, both being totalitarian systems, have both
complete control over the national economy. But this is only one overlapping point. There
are many, many differences where the two systems are diametrically opposite. The claim
that the national socialists were "race neutral" is sheer idiocy.

Look, Mr. Giwer, I even do your methodological homework. If you want to show that the
Nazis had no concern for the question of race, you only need to give one or two quotations
by Hitler that race does not matter. Please, go ahead.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Jul  3 19:42:24 PDT 1996
Article: 48072 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question:  How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 22:38:10 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>I AM RIGHT!  I AM GIWER!  Proof is irrelevant.  Documentation is irrelevant.
>>Reasons are irrelevant.  You will be a-spam-inated.
[...]
>	As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>work.  It is race neutral.

Will you kindly remember that it was us who had this little dispute about Marxism and
fascism. Your tried to identify them as being synonymous and I have shown exhaustively
that this is not possible. Not being able to give counter-evidence you retreated to the
point that fascism and national-socialism could by no means compared and that you
had only spoken of Italian fascism. I have given sufficient quotations by reputated
historians that the term "fascism" can be used as a super-category for "Italian fasciam"
and "national socialism". No you yourself claim that what you have called earlier a
"popular misconception". Would you please stick at least temporarily to one of your
seemingly many opinions? Apart from that, you are still not giving evidence for anything.

** Revisionist tactic: Just forget that you have been refuted brutally and let pass a short time.
** After that, you may repost your inane claims.

By the way, your were so thoroughly unable to give any answer to my critique that you had
to flee to the hiariously feeble argument that your opinions need no support because they
are just your opinions. Therefore: I AM RIGHT, I AM GIWER.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Jul  3 22:42:47 PDT 1996
Article: 48098 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 23:02:32 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>         Do you folks really want to continue this?

>Mr. Giwer shows his true colors. He has the tactics of a 4-year-old.
>So much for the famous 163 IQ.
>
>Sara

Sshh...don't excite him more than he is. He could start stomping his foot.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul  4 13:42:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48270 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A fianl question:  How would Hitler view Revisionism if he were alive?
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 96 23:24:25 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[...]
>>Race neutral?  I'm sure this will be read with great astonishment by those
>>who are actually self-described Nazis, as well as anyone else who knows
>>anything about National Socialism and its history.
>
>	On one hand you talk about national socialism and then you say that
>those who call themselves nazis would be surprised.  You need to learn
>to think more precisely than that.  You may as well include
>anti-semitism as part and parcel of communism is you are going to
>indulge in such sloppy thinking.

"This should clear the matter", as Mr. Giwer would say:

Excerpts from the "Gesetz zum Schutze des deutschen Blutes und
der deutschen Ehre" (Law for the protection of German blood and
German honour), 15th September 1935, also known
as the "Nuremberg Race law"

   Durchdrungen von der Erkenntnis, daß die Reinheit des deutschen
   Blutes die Voraussetzung für den Fortbestand des deutschen Volkes
   ist, und beseelt von dem unbeugsamen Willen, die deutsche Nation
   für alle Zukunft zu sichern, hat der Reichstag einstimmig das
   folgende Gesetz beschlossen, das hiermit verkündet wird:

   §1.1 Eheschließungen zwischen Juden und Staatsangehörigen deutschen
   oder artverwandten Blutes sind verboten. [...]

   §2 Außerehelicher Verkehr zwischen Juden und Staatsangehörigen
   deutschen oder artverwandten Blutes ist verboten.
	(Zitiert nach: Reinhard Kühnl: _Der deutsche Faschismus
	 in Quellen und Dokumenten_, Köln: Pahl-Rutgenstein, 6th ed.,
         1987, p293f.)

The translation, so that our renaissance man of letters does not
need to change his moral system:

   Imbued with the realization that the pureness of the German blood
   is the requirement for the continuing existence of the German
   people and our soul filled with the unshakeable will to secure the
   German nation in all future, the Reichsstag has unanimously passed
   following law which is hereby promulgated:

   §1.1 Marriages between Jews and nationals of German or racially
   related blood are illegal. [...]

   §2 Extramarital intercourse between Jews and nationals of German or
   racially related blood is illegal. [...]

Guess what? I know what Mr. Giwer will say next: "So what? I see nowhere
the word racism, therefore this text cannot be a proof that the
Nazis were racist, can it?" And then he will repost this excerpt ten
thousand times as a response to other posts he cannot answer...

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul  4 15:33:09 PDT 1996
Article: 48277 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 96 23:37:30 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Marty Kelley  wrote:
>>1) Engage in honest discussion of particular facts, using clearly
>>identified, documented sources to support your claims.
>
>	That depends upon whether or not the "documentation game" is going to be
>played.  For example, "Hilberg wrote" does not count nor does "a
>pharmacist concluded."

Yeah, I'm sure, Mr. Giwer would like that. This, by the way, illustrates the "revisionist" concept
of history that I have pointed out more extensively in my post "What is appropriate". In Mr. Giwer's
terms, the discussion on a historical subject is to be lifted out of its discoursive context and has
to take place entirely on the plane of subjective speculation, or how he call ist, "pure reason".
Quotations are to be regarded being the same as speculations dreamt up on the spur of a moment,
disregarding that behind the overwhelming majority of writings stands a _very_ large amount of hard
labour and much thought. It is possible to doubt and to refute past contributions to the discourse,
but to ignore them is turning historiography into a cheap travesty of scholarship. If Mr. Giwer does
not feel able to stand up against quotations using his own thought and work, he should be quiet.
I will not allow him to offend my view of academic professionality.

Nele

P.S. Roger Ascham, _The Scholemaster_:
Philekoos: He, that is glad to heare and learne of an other. For otherwise, he shall sticke with
great troble, where he might go easelie forwarde: and also catche hardlie a verie litle by his
owne toyle, whan he might gather quicklie a good deale, by an others mans teaching.


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Jul  6 17:02:07 PDT 1996
Article: 48727 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: 6 Jul 1996 12:58:49 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:
>
>>"My opinions, the
>>only opinions
>>worth having."
>>	M. Giwer
>
>>"Loquientiae multum,
>>sapientiae parum."
>>	Sallust

[...]


>>I will collect his contributions to the discussion and to condense them
>>as a criticism of "revisionist" techniques of discussion shown on a
>>grateful object. This is in my opinion the only way to defend speaking
>>with holocaust-deniers.
>

>	Anyone want to explain this one?  

[Weakminded drivel cleared]

I don't think that you have any say in a discussion on how to react
on your spams, Mr. Giwer. Apart from that, out of sheer curiosity,
did you understand anything of my essay? If you want to hold up
your "IQ163" in front of those you call "lurkers", you should at
least try to produce a coherent answer...

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul  8 19:56:43 PDT 1996
Article: 49058 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 96 20:18:42 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>I suppose it would be outrageous if I accused you of dishonesty,
>>Ehrlich, and asked you if you had any evidence whatsoever that Nizkor
>>is anti-German.
>
>No, I don't have any evidence that you are anti-German, Jamie, and in fact
>I recall explicit remarks by you to the contrary.  OTOH, there have been

To be honest, as a German, I would have problems assuming those who elaborate on
on our terrible history being anti-German. On contrary, I think that being careful that
these atrocities will never happen again is one of the main tasks of nowadays Germans.
We are not guilty. But we are responsible.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul  8 19:56:44 PDT 1996
Article: 49059 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 96 20:22:22 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>	I have been working from the materials on Nizkor and have posted them
>hear as part of my posts on the subject.  If you disagree with those on
>Nizkor you should post the layouts you do agree with, with your posts.

How about working on some real historical sources and presenting any support
for the following idiotic claim:

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[...]
>>Race neutral?  I'm sure this will be read with great astonishment by those
>>who are actually self-described Nazis, as well as anyone else who knows
>>anything about National Socialism and its history.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul  9 07:36:40 PDT 1996
Article: 49103 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is "chutzpah"?
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 96 20:29:57 GMT
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Alexander Baron  wrote:
[...]

Mr. Baron,

   I know that we have diametrically opposite opinions on how to judge
national socialism. But do we agree in the point that national socialists
viewed "race" as a criterium for measuring the value of people?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul  9 07:36:41 PDT 1996
Article: 49104 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 96 20:27:55 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>	Anyone want to explain this one?

No, no. How about explaining this:

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[...]
>>Race neutral?  I'm sure this will be read with great astonishment by those
>>who are actually self-described Nazis, as well as anyone else who knows
>>anything about National Socialism and its history.

Your silence is telling, Mr. Giwertroll. Come on, were is your evidence? I will consider
any silence as your admitting that you have been babbling on things you don't know
anything about and will react accordingly.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul  9 07:36:41 PDT 1996
Article: 49105 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They don't call Giwer the cotrol for nothing!'
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 12:32:13 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>	It is unclear what a schwarte is doing pointing here.

It is unclear what you are doing at your computer. You should be in a library
trying to finde some prove for this:

>: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>:
>: >         As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>: > Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>: > democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>: > work.  It is race neutral.

I've been waiting for days now. When will Mr. Giwer cough up some evidence for this
ridiculous and ignorant claim. Or has he _again_ been babbling about things he doesn't
know anything about?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul  9 07:36:42 PDT 1996
Article: 49149 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 17:35:54 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rtgd3$c73@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>What could we do to stop your spamming, Mr. Giwer?

>	Lots of things.  Shut up McFly for one thing.
>	Stop ALL personal attacks on everyone in any manner for another.
>	Cease ALL "troll" references.

Could you please try to explain, in what manner the below post could be considered
as insulting? Why did you reply with a spam and why didn't you answer?

gtaylor@msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor) wrote:

>  wrote:
>>>Are you now claiming that you believe Anne Frank's diary to be a hoax?
>>>In the past, I believe you had stated that you didn't know.  Please
>>>clarify your position on the authenticity of the _Diary_; I would also
>>>like to know why you think it's a hoax (if you do).
>>
>>	I said exactly what I said.  That there was a plagarism settlement.
>>	What would be of interest is finding the book the plagarism was claimed
>>       to  be from and which parts were involved.

>I expect that the reason for the question [which you didn't adress, to my
>*shock and surprise*] was that we'd all be very interested to know about
>this settlement. Are those the chemicals talking,

[etc.]


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 11 07:21:59 PDT 1996
Article: 49588 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Christians 'take it like a man'
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 12:36:13 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Distribution: world
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>	But in comparison you will not the difference between my articles on the
>homosexual encounter of Jesus and the multiple idols of the Israelites
>you will see the same thing.  The former gets zero response.  The latter
>garners all kinds of accusations.

Bah, beides alte Hüte...but know that you talk about "zero response":

>: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>:
>: >         As to what national socialism is, I have posted remarks directly from
>: > Hitler on that subject.  It is a practical form of Marxism divorced from
>: > democracy and direct government ownership as it must be in order to
>: > work.  It is race neutral.

I've been waiting for days now. When will Mr. Giwer cough up some evidence for this
ridiculous and ignorant claim. Or has he _again_ been babbling about things he doesn't
know anything about?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 11 07:22:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49591 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 17:30:23 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Distribution: world
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>	I'm afraid I have to plead guilty to insulting deniers myself.

>	Which keeps it all going does not it?

No, not at all. Since you claim the right to consider anything remotedly
opposing your views as insulting, the only way to stop your spams would
be not to give any answers to "revisionist" claims. Therefore, your
behaviour is not self-defense against insults, but a deliberate attempt
of censorship.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 11 07:22:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49612 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They don't call Giwer the cotrol for nothing!'
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 15:36:58 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s2i60$9a4@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>: 	Considering your parents murdered Jews it is unclear what you are doing
>>: in this NG.
[...]
>	Was it not the noted whacko Elie Wiesel who counseled hatred for all
>things German?

***"Revisionist" tactic:
*** When unable to provide any qualified answers,
*** try to denounce your opponents. In this case,
*** try to imply that discussing German history is
*** anti-German fanaticism.

Cheap, low-brow, and transparent.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 11 07:22:01 PDT 1996
Article: 49617 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:00:59 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jul 96 20:22:22 GMT,  (Nele Abels) wrote:
>>How about working on some real historical sources and presenting any support
>>for the following idiotic claim:

>	It is good to see someone on the holohugger side trashing Nizkor and the
>Gang of Six for a change.

>	I do agree with you, they are a worthless source.

Haha, nice try. Do you also agree that you have mad an _idiotic claim_? Or will you
finally stop behaving like a slippery piece of soap and produce some _evidence_
that the nazis were not racist. Or could it be that you are _running away_, eh?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 11 07:22:02 PDT 1996
Article: 49626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I sKen McVay and friend for real ? Are they realy white christians plants.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 15:49:47 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Mary Kravits  wrote:
> Think about it. These people have violated the number one rule about the
>holocaust,NO DEBATE !

Which is and always has been fictional.

So why are they debating ? As it turns out their
>not even Jewish.

Nor am I. And guess what? I'm even _German_. But I do not
tolerate lies and instrumentalising history for some political
purpose.

>And just look at the debate. It is about as fixed as pro
>wrestling.

It takes great lengths do defend oneself against those "revisionist" idiots.
(BTW: read "idiot" in its original, Greek sense.)

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 11 10:18:19 PDT 1996
Article: 49666 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:47:35 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>	Do not forget, you are one of the murderous Germans who participated in
>the extermination of the Jews.  No matter what you post here will not
>absolve you of your guilt.

This is what Mr. Giwer in his juvenile dialectics does not understand: the
difference between guilt and responsibility.

>	And if you want to say you were were not born at the time, then your
>parents were the murders you are talking about.

My grand-parents and great grand-parents. Yes, they were guilty in the sense
that they were the Germans who let a clique of mass-murderers come to
power. My grand-father was a soldier in the war against Russia. I don't know
whether he murdered Jews, and I did not ask him. Would _you_ have asked your
grand-father such a question? Others in Germany have, by the way. This
discourse was a central topic in the social changes in the sixties in
Germany. But you won't know anything about that...

>	You are the descendant of murderers.  Your father, your mother, your
>uncles and your aunts.  All of them murders.  They all knew what was
>going on.  They all turned in Jews.

Actually I do not know whether they turned in Jews or not. This could be, yes.
They never have told me. But what difference does that make to my attitude
towards the holocaust? Assuming your father murdered somebody, would you
claim it was not a crime, just because it was done by your father?

>	You familly is a disgrace.
>	That is, if you believe all of this nonsense.

Let me say again, that I am not interested in the question of guilt. That
the holocaust was a crime commited by the Germans is without doubt. Today
we are _responsible_ that it does not happen again. And that means we
have to oppose those like you, who try to whitewash the nazis in order
to establish their own totalitarian system. (You know who is talking about
a revolution against the "liberal Government" in his essays, do you?)

>	But, supply your favorite "excuse" to say they were not involved.
>Certainly they saved Jews.  Did not EVERYONE save Jews these days?

Yawn! An old hat. Perhaps you and I would have done the same? Who knows?
I do not know whether I could resist a totalitarian regime in the way the
"White Rose" did. But I do all in my power to inhibit a new one emerging.
Judgeing by your essays on your web-pages, I could imagine that you would
be among the first to throw yourself into the arms of fascists when they
would promise you to root out all those "idle couch-sloths" who get their
living by the money "the State steals from you for the social services".
(You know who is talking in his essays about using those unused barracks
as concentration camps for people relying on the social services, do you?)

You wouldn't recognize fascists if they were pointed out to you.

>What the hell, even if they did, the Jews don't want 250,000 individual
>acts of life saving heroism even remembered.

I vaguely remember somebody complaining about "Schindler's List", even
here in this newsgroup...but that was not a Jew. Do you remember him
too, Mr. Giwer?

>So much for your family of fools.

Oh, my...I'm hurt so deeply. (Mr. Giwer is really giving it out to me
with full hands, isn't he? :)) )

>	But your parents told you this crap and you believe them.  Guess what?
>They were most likely loyal Nazis.

Guess what? So do I think. But I got what you call "this crap" out of
intensive, labourous and thorough studying the contemporary sources. An
approach that you never have heard about...

And what is the one and only cause for Mr. Giwer's outbreak? He is ashamed
because he blundered again, by making the utterly stupid and ignorant claim
that the nazis were not racist. Thinking about it, our master-historian
probably has realized that he would never be able to support this claim. Thus
he tried to be veeeeeery silent about it. But I stubbornly insisted on
demanding some evidence, thus driving him to the cunning idea that I could
be silenced by shame. But I have nothing to be ashamed of. Mr. Giwer
is clutching at straws.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Jul 12 07:00:14 PDT 1996
Article: 49784 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 15:31:28 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
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Gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
[Giwer whined:]
>>	IF you had a measurable IQ, son of Jew hating murders, you would not be
>>posting this nonsense.

>Good troll, but pretty obvious.  Let's insult the Germans.  That should get
>a rise out of a few people.  Maybe Mr. Ehrlich will join in and Giwer will
>have succeeded in spawning another irrelevant thread.  Alec is right.  This
>guy is so dense, it's pathetic.

Mr. Giwer is by no means capable of insulting me. "Der Hund bellt, die Karawane
zieht weiter." Apart from that I regard his helpless outburst of childish name-calling
as just another amusing proof of his cognitive incapacity.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Jul 13 11:00:49 PDT 1996
Article: 50006 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazis NOT racist NOR antisemitic!
Date: 13 Jul 1996 14:42:25 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[I wrote:]
>>Fascism is undemocratic, totalitarian, inherently racist,  
>>ultra-nationalistic, features government control over 
>>business and a small, self-reproducing government elite.

>>National socialism is undemocratic, totalitarian, strongly
>>anti-semitic, racist, ultra-nationalistic, features government
>>control over business and a small, self-reproducing government
>>elite. Therefore national socialism is a fascist system.

[etc.]

[Mr. Giwer replied:]

>You either failed or did not take Political science.  
>You descriptive charcteristics are of the NSDAP, not of the
>concept of national socialism.  Why are you so slow?  

The appropriate question is: Why is Mr. Giwer so dense? Does he
give any reason, why the characteristics of the NSDAP should _not_
be the characteristics of national socialism? NO. Does he quote
any historian who puts forward this thesis? NO. Does he give
_anything_ remotedly looking like a qualified answer? NO.

*** Revisionist argumentation: NO! BECAUSE! I! SAY! SO!

Please notice also, that Mr. Giwer is very silent of the other
parts of my post although they demolished the whole of his
argumentation. I read this in the way that he admits that neither
fascism is communism, nor that national socialists are not racist.

Apart from that, please notice that the only feeble support
Mr. Giwer has is that his point is true because it normally is
taught in political science courses. I do not know whether this
is true, but please compare this to his usual claim that a 
characteristic of the thinking grown up is _not_ to rely on 
established academic authorities.

Amusing, isn't it?

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Jul 14 12:21:59 PDT 1996
Article: 50225 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Christians 'take it like a man'
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:51:24 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4sb8ic$7ba@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>	You are a self proclaimed German.

What the heck is _that_?

>	You and / or your parents were responsible for murdering Jews.  


No, we are responsible that it does not happen again because of ignorant 
people like you.

>	Why do you not admit your guilt and get it over with?

:) You certainly would like that. Thanks for the compliment.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Jul 14 12:22:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50226 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hagen Responds
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:59:46 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <4sb922$7ba@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>Is an asterix [*] as good as a hyphen and make us gods to the j*wish
>cattle?  

Asterisk, Mr. Giwer, asterisk. Asterix is a French cartoon character.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Jul 14 12:22:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50227 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:56:54 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <4sb8sm$7ba@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>Giwer ist der Geist, der stets verneint.

Nana, eine derart diabolische Bedeutung wollen wir ihm doch nun wirklich 
nicht zuerkennen. Mich erinnert er mehr an die Trinker im Wirtshaus.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Jul 14 12:22:01 PDT 1996
Article: 50236 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor flunkies learn some basics
Date: 13 Jul 1996 15:11:01 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 25
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>When you log on to Nizkor next time, you will note they have mastered
>the  statement and have stolen an animated GIF from
>some place.  

>	It is all quite impressive what they have mastered in a year.  
>	Who knows what the next year will bring.  

This remark being a bit off topic in a newsgroup on a historical
question, let's try to reformulate it a bit:

When you read Mr. Giwer's posts in alt.revisionism, you will note that
he still has not mastered using historical terms in their precise 
meaning, giving precise annotations in the rare cases he uses quotations,
reading texts thoroughly, and understanding their meaning - all the basic 
skills needed for commenting on a historical subject.

    It is all quite impressive that he has not mastered these little
    feats in all his years of master-historianship and in spite of
    his IQ163. We all know perfectly well that the next year will bring
    no change.
 

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Jul 14 14:49:56 PDT 1996
Article: 50249 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 13 Jul 1996 14:55:41 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 19
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>How about me asking.  I'm not German.
>
>	I was not talking to you.  
>
>	Bugger off.  

Boooah, aren't we in a baaaaad mood? Could it be because all
those questions we cannot answer are so irritating?

And why, should _I_ not be allowed to ask Mr. Giwer where in
the national socialist writings he found support for his claim
of the Nazis not being racist? After all it's _him_ who always
says that past things are past, isn't it.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 15 07:12:40 PDT 1996
Article: 50394 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lies, lies, who tells lies? (was: Statistics, statistics, anybody got statistics?)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 17:43:31 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sdb36$89n@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4s4at7$es2@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:36151 alt.politics.nationalism.white:25365 alt.discrimination:50410 alt.revisionism:50394

anon@anon.com wrote:
>He wasn't talking about "rapes", you stupid shit. He was talking about
>inter-racial rapes. What white man would want to rape a negress, fer
>chrissakes? Not many. Otherwise, they'd be moving INTO the ghetto and not
>screaming racial slurs and moving away.
[etc.]

How mighty brave to write this crap using a fake name. Do you do this so that your
mom and dad don't catch you using their internet account again?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 15 13:33:04 PDT 1996
Article: 50427 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor flunkies learn some basics
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:43:57 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4sb84d$7ba@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4s2d6u$au3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4s8ea5$nil@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4s9qhp$lgr@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>I have a better idea for those who are ashamed of their own name.  Come
>back on this conference with a real name and a real email address.
>Until then, I do not deal with cowards.  

I do not know what Mr. Giwer is talking about. I don't think that I can 
be blamed if he isn't able to find out a European email-address from the 
United States. To be honest, I know too little about the Internet to know 
whether my adress is stored somewhere in the first place. But I know who 
I am, for sure. If Mr. Giwer is interested in finding out whether my 
address is correct or not, I would recommend him to postpone his childish 
name calling and simply to write to me. If his letter is polite enough, I 
will certainly answer.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 15 13:33:06 PDT 1996
Article: 50439 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!news-e2a.gnn.com!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazis NOT racist NOR antisemitic!
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:38:02 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4sb7pa$7ba@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4rggjl$qhp@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4ri0n6$rao@grivel.une.edu.au> <4rq9cv$59l@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rt1u2$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4s56lc$3qa@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4s6nr8$92j@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4s8ckh$nil@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4s9brj$csm@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4s9lrt$rg3@atlas.uniserve.com> <4sa7lh$et8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:28:47 GMT, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
wrote:
>In addition, the troll - who has yet to demonstrate any ability to
>think for himself (or for anyone else) - continues to delude himself
>by tedious name-calling. The troll mistakenly,  but transparently,
>attributes to his opponent his own failures and ineptitude.

Listen up, fatbroad. there is exacly nothing on Nizkor that deserves
anyone being called a webmaster much less you.  
You are worthless in the www community.  Get over it.  

Are we getting excited again?

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 16 03:30:51 PDT 1996
Article: 50627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky - Corrupt
Date: 15 Jul 1996 18:55:53 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4se47p$o3q@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <31e90cca.8929322@news.pacificnet.net> <31e915cc.11235458@news.pacificnet.net> <4sd92r$89n@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <31ea4276.1333359@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>	You say a "short overview"? What's the problem with the whole
>li'l 15 pages or so. Or how about just the part that would support the
>Holocaust story.

Well, very simple. If you like me to translate it for you, I would have 
to charge you. ($20/page and that would be cheap) I would do the overview 
for free.

>	You want me to send it you? Why don't you just take it off the
>site?  

Very simple again. I have nothing to do with Nizkor, therefore I see no 
reason to take it off.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 16 08:46:24 PDT 1996
Article: 50636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: unsolicited info of a lurker's opinion
Date: 15 Jul 1996 19:02:34 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 15
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

[bla,bla,bla snipped]

>Anyone provoking you folks in the least manner condemns your position
>more than the provocation.  

What?

>But you will continue to jerk your knees on request list trained animals
>which is the closest thing to a compliment you folks will ever get.  

What?




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 16 08:46:27 PDT 1996
Article: 50665 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Any day now"?
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 17:22:38 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sfu7v$ln5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <31e796ce.279842@news.pacificnet.net>  <31e90b3e.8533257@news.pacificnet.net> <4scq5r$k49@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ps1031.fremdsprachen-literaturen.uni-marburg.de
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>	They are a bunch of amateurs involved in libel and as a group have
>organized to the point they are liable under the RICO statutes.  Treble
>punative damages there as I recall.  Against each individual as I
>recall.
[...]

That reminds me of an amateur historian who has run away from the thread "RE: testimonial
fiction" because he doesn't want to admit that his plan of putting unemployed into
concentration camps violates civil liberties, and who has run away from the thread "Nazis
are NOT racist NOR antisemitic" because he isn't able to tell why the programme of the NSDAP
and national socialism should be different things.

Boy, what a smatterer

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 16 08:46:28 PDT 1996
Article: 50688 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: interesting event
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 17:36:43 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sfv2c$ln5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ps1031.fremdsprachen-literaturen.uni-marburg.de
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>The holohuggers have accepted both Alec Grynspan and Rack Jite (aka
>David Dahlman) even though David Dahlman has condemned both of us.

>What strange folks he holohuggers are.

For the sake of simplicity I will assume that Mr. Giwer would count me as a "holohugger",
although I speak only for myself, of course. I cannot see this as a strange thing at all, because
I do not rely on others' opinions to estimate people, but because simply on what I read. Just
to give an example, I only have to see that Mr. Giwer runs away from the threads "RE: testimonial
fiction" and "Nazis were NOT racist NOR anticsemitic" to see that he is a self-aggrandizing
flunky who babbles about things he doesn't know anything about. I don't need anybody to
tell me that. Mr. Giwer really should discard his childish conspiration theories, reality is much
more simple.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 16 08:46:28 PDT 1996
Article: 50690 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: public presentation
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 17:44:40 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sfvh9$ln5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ps1031.fremdsprachen-literaturen.uni-marburg.de
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>         Never debate, only attack.

>Mr. Gower has consisely stated his "contributions" to alt.revisionism.

>It's a rare and honest moment.

What would you expect? He presented us with his short catechism of the
First Chirch of Fascist Whitewashing. He would _never_ lie to his fellow
believers, would he?

:) Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 16 10:52:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50708 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news1.istar.ca!winternet.com!mr.net!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!irz401!uni-erlangen.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 17:55:56 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sg06e$ln5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ru1kr$i2c@access5.digex.net> <4rvl74$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4sda14$89n@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4sfhov$73l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>	US law is civilization, fool.
>
>>>	The US is the world at this point in history.
>
>>>	If you do not understand that then you have no understanding of either
>>>the past or the present.

[I asked:]
>>And you are the epitome of civilization?

[Mr. Giwer didn't understand]
>	Epitome is irrelevent, the US is the world at this point.
[etc. blabla]

It is a pity how poor the world is if one doesn't even understand one's own language
and if one is so completely lacking each concept of irony as Mr. Giwer is.

For Mr. Giwer's information:
epi-tome (-mi), n. Summary, abstract, of book; condensed account; (fig) THING THAT
REPRESENTS ANOTHER IN MINIATURE...

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Jul 17 10:59:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51010 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 17:21:50 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>  	Dear jerkoff Jew,

>>	A fine statement from someone who claims he is going to sue for,
>>apparently, being labelled an anti-Semite.  I  suggest you read how the federal
>>courts deal with litigants who file frivolous lawsuits.

>	What is antisemitic about that?


"Judah verrecke!" I can see nothing anti-semitic about that too, or can you, Mr. Eideken?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 18 00:24:10 PDT 1996
Article: 51153 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 17 Jul 1996 07:59:07 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>Well stated.  Holohuggers are not welcome here.  They are here only to
>disrupt the purpose of the NG and should receive complaints to their IPS
>for their existance here.  

Could you please state in two or three short paragraphs what the purpose 
of alt.revisionism is? Please don't answer with insults, I am really 
interested in your opinion.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Jul 19 07:29:20 PDT 1996
Article: 51352 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Giwer is confronted with his fascist ideas but chickens out (was: RE: Testimonial fiction)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 15:02:57 GMT
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A couple of days ago Mr. Giwer backed out from a discussion of his totalitarian
plan of establishing concentration camps for the unemployed. I managed to
prove that Mr. Giwer, although constantly uses the US constitution as an
argument, in his ideal state intends to give civil rights only to property owners and
to give government to an undemocratic elite. Mr. Giwer ran away from this
discussion because he was not able to answer. In the following, I repost the
last part of the discussion in the hope of receiving an answer.

Nele


[I wrote]
>>Yes, I have read your web-pages. Your noble cause is "defending the civil
>>rights." But who have the "civil rights"? Those who have property.

[Mr. Giwer answered]
>That is no place on my website.  Why would you insist upon making up
>such a thing?

If Mr. Giwer is denying that he claims to defend the civil rights, then
why is he always talking about the constitution? But if he is denying that
in his system civil rights are dependent on personal property, this is
written all over his website. Of course he does not say that explicitly,
but this is the only logical consequence of his ideas. I am working on an
essay in which I extract the relevant passages from Mr. Giwer's essays.
But even without this, Mr. Giwer's dubious attitude towards democratic
principles is illustrated sufficiently in this very post. I will quote
the passage in question completely:

	[Mr. Giwer]
	The voting question has been a serious one since the vote
	was invented. It is a simple question of should people have the
	power to vote the treasury for themselves and if so, why?
	Now if the constitution were to be adhered to, there would be no
	problem with who can vote.  But in the US the process of some
	voting themselves the treasury is well underweigh. In fact it has
	progressed to the point where those programs are heading the
	country towards bankruptcy.

In a nutshell, Mr. Giwer argues that because all those with an insufficient
income vote for politicians offering "those programs" which give them
support, the United States are on the brink of bankruptcy. He concludes
that only those contributing taxes should be allowed to decide on
government policy. This is called census suffrage (at least this is the
German terminus technicus. I'm not sure about the precise English term.)
The electorate is measured by their property. My Oxford dictionary gives
as the definition of 'civil rights': the rights of citicens to political
and social freedom and equality. In Mr. Giwer's terms this political
equality is only to be enjoyed by those owning property.

Ergo: who have the "civil rights"? Those who have property.

(I will not elaborate on the sentence "Now if the constitution were to be
adhered to..." which could very well be interpreted in the way that only
men have political rights.)

[I wrote:]
>>People who have lost their property, their health or their ability to
>>work, or even their work-place in a time of recession are in tough luck.
>>Your ideal state will not give them any support. The only choice
>>they have is to starve or to go into one of your concentration camps.

[Mr. Giwer replied]
>That is not on my site either.  Why would you say such a thing?

Again, because it's the logical consequence of your ideas. It's that simple.

[I wrote]
>>That's some "option", yeah. There, their remaining few pieces of property
>>will be stored away, they will be guarded and be submitted to body
>>searches. That's nothing else then losing most of their civil rights.

[Mr. Giwer replied]
>You have no concept of the drug problem in this country.  You also have
>no concept of civil rights.

I have quoted a nice definition of civil rights above. What is Mr. Giwer's
definition? I'm afraid, we'll never know.

[clip]

[Mr. Giwer continued]
>These people have another option, the right to work.  And as noted we
>already have hundreds of private places for the homeless all over the
>country and all run by private charities. I have suggested nothing that
>it is not in them including work for your keep and added medical care
>and education.

For a very long time this passage by Mr. Giwer is actually the first one
which would deserve the attribute "cunning". I did explicetly speak of times
of recesssion when there is no work, or of people losing their health and
their ability to work. Mr. Giwer withholds this in a rethorically clever
way and implies that I was suggesting everybody should receive governmental
support whether they are able to work or not. This is of course not true,
I say that the state has a responsibility towards the weaker citzens in
times of need. This opinion is not shared by Mr. Giwer because he has the
paranoid notion of  a huge army of couch-sloths tyrannizing the property
owners. Please compare:

	Who made you the labourer for me? I quit work. I live off the
	government. Thank you very much. [...]
	It was the people I vote for who decided I should be the master
	and you should be the slave. (Call me Master, §§1 and 5)

Therefore, Mr. Giwer does much more than to give "just another"
solution. His plans of establishing concentration camps for the
unemployed in his ideal state must be seen in context with the fight of
the "property owning elite" against "the enemy", the poor. In this fight,
the measures of the society to protect weak members is seen by Mr. Giwer as
attempts by "the Government" to establish "tyranny".

And this brings this discussion back to the topic "holocaust" revisionism.
Mr. Giwer feels sympathy for many of the aspects of Nazi Germany. He
probably likes the "iron broom" of the Hitler government, their merciless
methods against the "Jewish" stock market, against the socialists, against
worker's unions and against women's liberation. He certainly likes their
mystical sympathy for the ancient patriarchal system of free landowning
peasents as the backbone of the nation. His fight against the truth of the
Holocaust may be understood in the way that he prefers to believe the Nazi
term "Arbeitslager".

Mr. Giwer would fall exactly in the same trap as the German big business
fell in 1933. Accordingly, Mr. Giwer does not like the fascist control
over business, something the businessmen under Hitler had to find out the
hard way. Perhaps he would be a proud fascist, if the fascists had left
the business alone?

This attitude explains Mr. Giwer's motives in his "revisionist" struggle
and his seemingly contraditory claim of "not being fascist". In trying to
reduce the definition of fascism to its economical aspect on the one hand,
and in trying to whitewash all other fascist measures on the other hand,
he maintains the freedom to dream up a totalitarian state without
coming into the danger of being called fascist or communist. (Well, at
least he thinks so...) Indeed, although constructing a system being fascist
to its core, he still feels right use the term "fascist" as ammunition in
his polemics against government measures he doesn't like.

This could be a quite dangerous tactic, if applied by someone with the
according intellectual capacity and rhethoric abilities. But fortunately
Mr. Giwer's essays are much too blunt to fool anybody. But it should
be said in public anyway, just in case...

[Clip]

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Jul 20 09:15:08 PDT 1996
Article: 51583 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Choose your poison
Date: 20 Jul 1996 12:35:34 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>You miss the point.  Jews gave up having a choice when they chose not to
>violently resist getting on the trains to the camps.  

>The Choice in favor of dying was made at that point.  

>The only thing left was fast or slow after that decision was made.  

Hey, that's really a nice one:

"What, a murderer? Who? Me?? Naah... Yes, I admit that I threatened him 
with a gun, but then he went with me into the woods without any 
resistence, so that I could shoot him without any problems. So it was 
_suicide_, yes..."

Nele
	






From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Jul 20 09:15:08 PDT 1996
Article: 51596 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: 20 Jul 1996 13:06:24 GMT
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Listen to the illiterate, listen to the uneducated, listen to the 
ignorant:

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>No holocaust historian has ever maintained that there were 4 million
>killed at Auschwitz.

>Therefore there were no holocaust historians before 1991.  

Completely illogical...quite typical for Mr. Giwer.

Apart from that, considering the "non-existence" of holocaust historians 
before 1991, I went over to the shelves with the historical 
bibliographies took out _one_ of at least fifty volumes, the 
_Jahresberichte für deutsche Geschichte, N.F. 21 1969_. I opened the 
Index, looked up "Konzentrationslager" disregarding other cross indices.

I found 5 pages with 68 titles. I will give a _short_ list for you to 
check. I would be glad if you will publish your results in this 
newsgroup.

Levin, Nora: "The holocaust. The destruction of European Jewry, 
1933-1945" New York: Crowell, 1968.

Saurel, Louis: "Les camps de la mort". Paris: Rouff, 1967.

Steiner, J. M.: "Social Instructions and social mange under national 
socialist rule. An analysis of process of escalation into mass 
destruction", Diss. Freiburg, 1968.

"Die Opfer der nationalsozialistischen Judenverfolgungen in 
Baden-Württembert 1933-1945. Ein Gedenkbuch". Stuttgart, Kohlhammer, 
1969.

Snoek, J.M.: "The grey book. A collection of protests against 
anti-Semitism and the persecution of Jews issued by non-Roman Catholic  
churches and church leaders during Hitler's rule". Assen: Van Gorcum, 
1969.

Mind you, this is only a tiny extract from a single year. So please stop 
babbling about things you don't know anything about.If you insist on 
commenting on historical subjects without in any way being qualified to 
do so, would you please at least try to learn the basic tools of the 
trade.

Nele

P.S. I forgot something that your IQ163 certainly needs being explained: 
a bibliography is a collection of titles on a certain topic.






From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Jul 20 09:15:09 PDT 1996
Article: 51597 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slimey bastard McVay and company
Date: 20 Jul 1996 13:08:32 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]

>You have in fact almost exhausted my patience with you and your
>organized activities.  

>Take this as one of your last warnings.  

Well, what will hapen then? Will you go away? Or will you finally start 
using arguments and quotations? Or even (gosh!) common sense?

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 22 09:00:17 PDT 1996
Article: 52139 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer is confronted with his fascist ideas but chickens out (was: RE: Testimonial fiction)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 13:44:39 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	You are a lying asshole.  And you afraid to ask your parents and
>grandparents how many Jews they murdered simply because you do not want
>to know the answer.
[etc.]

No, no, Mr. Giwer. We exchanged our opinions on this matter. Then you decided
on discussing a new topic which I brought in and I followed you there, because
I found it more discussable too. You are obviously irritated because you have
no means to disprove my conclusion of yours being fascist to the core. Would
you kindly concentrate on this point and stop your primitive insults?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 22 09:00:18 PDT 1996
Article: 52156 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 13:47:17 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 8
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>Pressac is a pharmacist.  He is not a historian.  Keep that in mind while you are
>clubbing snakes.

Listen to that unemployed electrician... But how can you possibly disprove an electrician with
a historian?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 22 13:03:44 PDT 1996
Article: 52193 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Back by popular request
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 12:47:14 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>    He judges everything by his own standards - and it seems he can
>scarcely remember anything for more than a week.  I think he really
>expects that everyone else forgot about it by now.

He is a beautiful specimem of the postmodern. It would be _very_ interesting
to deconstruct him.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 22 13:03:44 PDT 1996
Article: 52209 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moving right along
Date: 22 Jul 1996 17:36:14 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>Now that we have clearly established there was no gassing any place
>at any time can we move on with this conference?

>Or shall we have to suffer the holohuggers forever disrutpting the >conference?  

>This is getting eternallly boring having the holohuggers coming back 
>with refuted nonsense that is of no interest to this conference. 

We have established WHAT? Höhö... These must be those "Holocaust truths", 
over whether to post them or not Mr. Giwer has pondered so long... :))

A desperate but amusing try.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 22 13:03:45 PDT 1996
Article: 52210 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What was the holocaust
Date: 22 Jul 1996 17:28:40 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>[nothing deleted]
>What, Matt, trying to bring your characters per post statistic down?

No, he just spread out the whole of his historical knowledge.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 22 13:03:46 PDT 1996
Article: 52216 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer is confronted with his fascist ideas but chickens out (was: RE: Testimonial fiction)
Date: 22 Jul 1996 16:51:46 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4t0bj2$lou@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4snj60$k31@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4spuie$pg7@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4svbn3$687@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4svhoj$8tl@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>Why would I want you to know more than yuo admit?

I beg your pardon?

>Because you are the child of murderers of Jews.  
>What more do you want?  

Mr. Giwer, could it be that you are afraid of me? It is obvious that you 
have not the guts to discuss anything more substantial than your 
infantile insults. If you really sport those IQ163, use them for a 
serious discussion. But you won't do that...

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 22 13:03:47 PDT 1996
Article: 52217 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Ken McVay
Date: 22 Jul 1996 16:57:37 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4t0bu1$lou@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4sna73$7s7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4sse2o$out@access5.digex.net> <4ssh4o$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199608144723@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sv77l$3l2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>It was either McVay or one of the gang of holohugging harrassers here 
>on the newsgroup.  What is the difference?  You are all equally
>worthless.  You are all the same.  

Strange thing...I vaguely remember someone constructing a thesis that
there is no antisemism, based on the premise that groups with no common 
ethnicity or religion cannot be identified. Do the other "holohuggers" 
remember this person too?

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 22 13:03:48 PDT 1996
Article: 52236 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: 22 Jul 1996 17:10:27 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4t0cm3$lou@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4sptl9$p7q@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31f0cf59.982168@news.pacificnet.net> <4ssbgk$bj1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4ssjbo$pne@atlas.uniserve.com> <4ssoha$erp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4sv3f0$ogs@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4svi3j$bvd@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>Excuse me, Illiterate, but if being a pharmacist qualifies one then so does any and everything qualify everyone and there is no lon=
ger any claim that "historian" means anything.  

>I would have thougt you would have noticed that one.

>Thal [sic!] also means "no hisotorian [sic!]  accepted 4 million at
>Aushchwittz [sic!]" is no better than any pharmacist posting.  

Calm down, calm down...

>You are very stupid to take this position.

Yet another time life is much more simple than Mr. Giwer's slightly 
paranoid phantasies. It doesn't really matter what university degree you 
have in your pocket, what counts is the work you do. This is the reason 
why non-historian David Irving got his reputation as a dilligent 
collector of historical sources before he started to make his ridiculous 
claims. And regarding alt-revisionism, I have some difficulty in 
understanding why Mr. Giwer is so desperately struggling to disqualify 
his own comments on the historical subject "holocaust". After all he 
proudly boasts not being a historian.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 23 07:04:14 PDT 1996
Article: 52356 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A question to Mr. Giwer: what is the purpose of a.r.?
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 13:57:55 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4svcfu$687@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ps1031.fremdsprachen-literaturen.uni-marburg.de
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

Mr. Giwer wrote:
>  This is as it should be.  This is not a holohugger conference.

I have already asked you that question, but unfortunately you did not answer. Therefore
I ask again:

Please give us in one or two short paragraphs your opinion of  what the purpose
of this conference is.

Please do not answer with insults because I am really interested in what you say on
this matter..

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 23 07:04:15 PDT 1996
Article: 52419 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why are the stories preserved?
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 17:05:16 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t2br6$4am@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4sspih$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved?
>
>     The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish historians and
>organizations.  There is very little impartial secular history on
>these stories.  At this point one can only speculate as to why.

It certainly has eluded you, but there is a  _very_ wide Holocaust
research in Germany. But anyway, you dream up the lies you need
as you go along.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 23 07:04:16 PDT 1996
Article: 52438 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: 22 Jul 1996 17:24:51 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4t0dh3$lou@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References:  <4sq2j7$7f9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ssd9e$on4@access5.digex.net> <4sshda$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ste0n$3p9@access5.digex.net> <4sv84o$1us@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>Rather I would point out there is not one documented case of such a
>sterilization as in an observed case of X-Ray destroyed reproductive 
>organs.

>It took much longer than I expected for some holohugger to point out
>there exist no examples of such "experiments" ever having been 
>conducted.  

Good Lord! Mr. Giwer, are you really implying, the Nazis could not have 
sterilized those they called "Untermenschen" using X-rays, because those 
rays destroy the reproductive organs? Are you really implying the SS had 
such scruples? Not even YOU would have such scruples.

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 23 09:39:31 PDT 1996
Article: 52487 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What was the plan for the holocaust?
Date: 22 Jul 1996 17:59:24 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4t0fhs$no7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ssotv$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>What was the plan for the Holocaust?
>
>     Surprisingly, we have little hard information on the
>subject.  In fact we have only one master plan document which is
>the Wannsee Protocol. 

And we have Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and we have Himmler's secret speeches 
and we have Lagarde and we have Drexler and, and, and.. 

And, please do read a book about the Wannsee-Konferenz. It doesn't matter 
which one as long as it is a real history book and not one of your cheap 
"revisionist" brochures. You will find all of your questions answered.


Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 25 16:00:53 PDT 1996
Article: 53177 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What was the plan for the holocaust?
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 19:35:34 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 84
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t7tcv$nf8@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4ssotv$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4t0fhs$no7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4t1sf4$run@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>And, please do read a book about the Wannsee-Konferenz. It doesn't matter
>>which one as long as it is a real history book and not one of your cheap
>>"revisionist" brochures. You will find all of your questions answered.

>So your reading skills are a problem but your "reading into" skills are
>politiclally correct.
>So what?

Your writing skills are non-existent. Anyway, I am not concerned with "political correctness",
but with quality research. You probably devour these little brochures because they are
on one intellectual level with your own writings... Please find below an official military
report that will burst your little Wannsee-bubble of "settlement in the east". And please
do not expose your stupidity by claiming that you don't understand the text.

Nele

P.S. Before you throw yourself into mindless insults again, please think. If you deny the holocaust
on the one hand, saying that the deeds of the Nazis were the same power-politics that can be
found all over the world, and if you call me a child of murderers on the other hand, the only thing
you are saying is that you are yourself the son of murderers. If you are on the other hand implying
that I am in this respect different to you, then you are admitting that the holocaust has taken place.
The answer is your choice...

------
Group Arlt	       (Stamp "0082")   Minsk, 3. August, 1942

			Progress Report
			---------------

   The work of the remain men here in Minks stays more or less the same.
The Jew-transports have been arriving in Minsk in regular intervals and
have been cared for by us. Accordingly we dealt already on the 18. and
19. 6. 42 with the excavation of pits on the settlement area.
On the 19. 6.,SS-Scharf. Schr÷der, who had died by spotted fever in the
local SS-hospital, was put to rest in the new cemetary near the
Kommandeur's estate. My group was reinforced by men of the SD and took
part in the funeral service as guard of honour.
On the 26. 6. the expected Jew-transport from the Reich arrived.
On the 27. 6. we departed with nearly the whole Kommando for an action
in Baranewitsche. The result was negative as usual. During this action we
cleaned out the Jew-ghetto in Slonim. Roughly 4000 Jews were put under
ground this day.
On the 30. 6. we returned to Minsk. The following days were spent with putting
equipment in order, cleaning weapons, checking weapons.
Already on the 2. 7. preparations for the reception of a Jew-transport,
excavation of pits, were begun.
On the 10. 7. we and the Lettish Kommando were set up against partisans
in the wood of Koydanow. Suddenly we were shot by an m.g. lying in
ambush. One Lettish fellow-soldier was killed. Pursuing the gang, we managed
to shoot four of them.
On the 12. 7. the Lettish fellow-soldier was put to rest in the new cemetary.
On the 17. 7. a Jew-transport arrived and was brought to the estate.
On the 21., 22., and 23. 7. new pits were excavated.
On the 24. 7. another transport of 1000 Jews from the Reich arrives.
>From  the 25. 7. to the 27. 7. new pits are being excavated.
On the 28. 7. a big action in the Russion ghetto of Minsk. 6000 Jews are
brought to the pit.
On the 29. 7. 3000 German Jews are brought to the pit.
The following days were spent again with cleaning weapons and putting
things in order.

			(Stamp "0083")

Further my group provided each day the W.v.D. (guard on duty?) and
takes care for the house-prison. Inmates, est. 50 men.
By order of SS-Ostuf. St÷rz, SS-Rttf. Albert Lorenz was transferred to Riga.
He was set on March on the 4. 7. 42.
SS-Rttf. Skowranek and SS-Strm. Auer were on leave from the 8. 7. to
the 1. 8. Both returned punctually.
On the 28.7. SS-Strm. Otto was released from hospital as healed and
with a recommodation for recreation-leave. Otto was sent on leave by
the Kdr. from the 3. 8. till 25. 9. He plans to marry while being on leave.
SS-Srm. Hering is on leave at home from the 3.8. to 27. 8.

The discipline of the men on and off duty is good and gives no reason
for complaints.


				     (illegible)
				SS-Unterscharfnhrer





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Jul 25 20:01:58 PDT 1996
Article: 53192 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer's Wannsee-bubbles burst by the report of a Sonderkommando
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 19:25:52 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 149
Distribution: world
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ps1031.fremdsprachen-literaturen.uni-marburg.de
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2.1

   The following excerpt is the progress report of a Waffen-SS
Sonderkommando in the Minsk area. Progress reports like this were
sent on a regular basis to the command staff of the Reichsfnhrer
SS. Their purpose was to give a concise overview of the situation,
and on the long run to provide material for the historicist, as
the "Bestimmungen fnr die Fnhrung von Kriegstagebnchern und
T_tigkeitsberichten" prescribe.
   The excerpt has been translated from _Unsere Ehre hei_t Treue:
Kriegstagebuch des Kommandostabes Reischfnhrer SS, T_tigkeitsberichte
der 1. und 2. SS-Inf.-Brigade, der 1. SS-Kav.-Brigade und von Sonder-
kommandos der SS_, Wien, Frankfurt, Znrich: Europa, 1965, pp. 242f.
The publication is a facsimile reproduction of the original files.
The papers show all marks, signaturs and stamps of usual military
paperwork. Handwritten parts are in correct Sntterlin.
   The quoted report was written in the second half of 1942. It
has to be seen escpecially in the context of the Wannsee-Konferenz
because it illustrates the real meaning of the "evacuations" to
the east.


Group Arlt	       (Stamp "0082")   Minsk, 3. August, 1942


			Progress Report
			---------------

   The work of the remain men here in Minsk stays more or less the same.
The Jew-transports have been arriving in Minsk in regular intervals and
have been cared for by us. Accordingly we dealt already on the 18. and
19. 6. 42 with the excavation of pits on the settlement area.
On the 19. 6.,SS-Scharf. Schr÷der, who had died by spotted fever in the
local SS-hospital, was put to rest in the new cemetary near the
Kommandeur's estate. My group was reinforced by men of the SD and took
part in the funeral service as guard of honour.
On the 26. 6. the expected Jew-transport from the Reich arrived.
On the 27. 6. we departed with nearly the whole Kommando for an action
in Baranewitsche. The result was negative as usual. During this action we
cleaned out the Jew-ghetto in Slonim. Roughly 4000 Jews were put under
ground this day.
On the 30. 6. we returned to Minsk. The following days were spent with putting
equipment in order, cleaning weapons, checking weapons.
Already on the 2. 7. preparations for the reception of a Jew-transport,
excavation of pits, were begun.
On the 10. 7. we and the Lettish Kommando were set up against partisans
in the wood of Koydanow. Suddenly we were shot by an m.g. lying in
ambush. One Lettish fellow-soldier was killed. Pursuing the gang, we managed
to shoot four of them.
On the 12. 7. the Lettish fellow-soldier was put to rest in the new cemetary.
On the 17. 7. a Jew-transport arrived and was brought to the estate.
On the 21., 22., and 23. 7. new pits were excavated.
On the 24. 7. another transport of 1000 Jews from the Reich arrives.
>From  the 25. 7. to the 27. 7. new pits are being excavated.
On the 28. 7. a big action in the Russion ghetto of Minsk. 6000 Jews are
brought to the pit.
On the 29. 7. 3000 German Jews are brought to the pit.
The following days were spent again with cleaning weapons and putting
things in order.

			(Stamp "0083")

Further my group provided each day the W.v.D. (guard on duty?) and
takes care for the house-prison. Inmates, est. 50 men.
By order of SS-Ostuf. St÷rz, SS-Rttf. Albert Lorenz was transferred to Riga.
He was set on March on the 4. 7. 42.
SS-Rttf. Skowranek and SS-Strm. Auer were on leave from the 8. 7. to
the 1. 8. Both returned punctually.
On the 28.7. SS-Strm. Otto was released from hospital as healed and
with a recommodation for recreation-leave. Otto was sent on leave by
the Kdr. from the 3. 8. till 25. 9. He plans to marry while being on leave.
SS-Srm. Hering is on leave at home from the 3.8. to 27. 8.

The discipline of the men on and off duty is good and gives no reason
for complaints.


				     (illegible)
				SS-Unterscharfnhrer


Gruppe Arlt             (Stempelaufdruck 0082) Minsk, den 3.August 1942


                T _ t i g k e i t s b e r i c h t
               -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

                Die Arbeit der restlichen M_nner hier in Minsk
bleibt nach wie vor ziemlich dieselbe. Die Judentransporte trafen
in regelm__igen Abst_nden in Minsk ein und wurden von uns betreut.
So besch_ftigten wir uns bereits am 18.und 19.6.42 wieder mit
dem Ausheben von Gruben im Siedlungsgel_nde. Am 19.6. wurde der
am Fleckfieber im hiesigen SS-Lazarett verstorbene SS-Scharf. Schr÷der
im neuen Friedhof am Gut des Kdr's, beigesetzt. Meine Gruppe wurde
durch M_nner aus dem S.D. verst_rk und nahm als Ehrenzug an der
Trauerfeier teil.
Am 26.6. traf der erwartete Judentransport aus dem Reich ein.
Am 27.6. starteten wir samt ziemlich dem ganzen Kdo. zu einer
Aktion nach Baranewitsche. Der Erfolg war wie immer negativ. Im
Zuge dieser Aktion r_umten wir das Judenghetto in S l o n i m.
Ettwa 4000 Juden wurden an diesem Tage der Erde nbergeben.
Am 30.6. kehrten wir wieder nach Minsk zurnck. Die n_chstfolgenden
Tage waren mit Sacheninstandsetzen, Waffenreinigen, Waffendurchsicht
ausgefnllt.
Am 2.7. wurden bereits wieder die Vorkehrungen zum Empfang eines
Judentransportes, Aushebung der Gruben, getroffen.
Am 10.7. wurden wir und das lett. Kdo. gegen Partisanen im Walde
von Koydanow eingestzt. Wir konnten dabei ein Munitionslager
ausheben. Pl÷tzlich wurden wir dabei aus dem Hinterhalt mit einem
M.G. beschossen. Ein lettischer Kamerad wurde dabei get÷tet. Bei
der Verfolgung der Bande konnten vier Mann erschossen werden.
Am 12.7. wurde der lett. Kamerad im neuen Friedhof beigesetzt.
Am 17.7. traf ein Transport mit Juden ein und wurde zum Gut gebracht
Am 21. 22. und 23.7. werden neue Gruben ausgehoben.
Am 24.7. trifft wieder ein Transport mit 1000 Juden aus
dem Reich hier ein.
Vom 25.7. bis 27.7. werden neue Gruben ausgehoben.
Am 28.7. Gro_aktion in Minsker russ. Ghetto. 6000 Juden werden
zur Grube gebracht.
Am 29.7. 3000 deutsche Juden werden zur Grube gebracht.
Die n_chstfolgenden Tage waren wieder mit Waffenreinigen und
Sachenindstandsetzen ausgefnllt.


                        (Stempelaufdruck 0083)

Ferner stellte meine Gruppe t_glich den W.v.D. und betreut
das Hausgef_ngniss. Insassen ca. 50 Man.

Auf Befehl von SS-Ostuf. S t ÷ r t z, wurder SS-Rttf. Albert
L o r e n z nach Riga versetzt. Er wurde am 4.7.42 nach
dort in Marsch gesetzt.
Der SS-Rttf. S k o w r a n e k, und der SS-Strm. A u e r, waren
vom 8.7. bis 1.8. im Urlaub. Beide kamen pnnktlich wieder.
Der SS-Strm. O t t o, wurde am 28.7. als geheilt und mit be-
fnrwortung [sic] auf Erholungsurlaub aus dem Lazarett entlassen.
Otto wurde vom Kdr. vom 3.8. bis 25.9. auf Erholungsurlaub
geschickt. Er gedenkt sich in diesem Urlaub zu verheiraten.
Der SS-Strm. H e r i n g ist vom 3.8.-27.8. in die Heimat
beurlaubt.

Das betragen der M_nner ist In= und =au_er Dienst ist gut [sic] und
gibt zu keiner Beanstandung Anlass.


                                        (unleserlich)
                                     SS-Unterscharfnhrer






From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Jul 27 11:56:54 PDT 1996
Article: 53450 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why are the stories preserved?
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 16:26:15 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t4ttv$qao@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <4t2br6$4am@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4t3hjs$10h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>In article <4t2br6$4am@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) writes:
[...]
>>It certainly has eluded you, but there is a  _very_ wide Holocaust
>>research in Germany. But anyway, you dream up the lies you need
>>as you go along.
[...]
>The quality of Holocaust research in a country where books are burned and
>free access to the Bundesarchiv is denied can be well imagined.

Could you please point out  where and when recently in Germany books have been
burnt except by neo-fascist idiots like you? Oh, yes, I remember the story of the judge
who ordered "books to be burnt". It's not true, that's all.

Could you please give one case where access to the Bundesarchiv has been denied
except in cases where the privacy of people would be intruded? (there are probably
similar laws in the United States)

Please don't be so cheap...

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 29 14:06:27 PDT 1996
Article: 54118 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mr. Keren also ignores this aspect
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 13:18:50 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>I personally don't know what Leuchter's qualifications are, but it is
>evident he did some test at Auschwitz. Keren says here "Leuchter
>himself states very clearly ..." that there were cyanide traces found
>at Auschwitz, seeming to use Leuchter himself as a reliable source.

Grah! I can't believe it. This great paladine of revisionism hasn't even
_read_ the Leuchter report!

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 29 14:06:28 PDT 1996
Article: 54147 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 14:43:00 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4thto7$no5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>>In fact, in his long and notorious carreer in this newsgroup, Mr.
>>Giwer has never once provided any evidence or citations to back up
>>even a single one of his many assertions.  He himself does not deny
>>this, even as he demands such evidence and citations from others.

>>Which makes Mr. Giwer a hypocrite, as well as a liar.

>What is clear is that if there was any case whatsoever for any of this
>nonsense the FIRST thing that would be presented would be the physical
>evidence.

I wonder whether Mr. Giwer would mind providing physical evidence for the
following nonsensous claims? He should have done so in the FIRST place:

a) Communism, liberalism and fascism are the same
b) National Socialism is not and has never been racist (hear, hear, Mr. Baron)
c) What was mentioned in the Wannsee conference were indeed re-settlements in the east

This is the place and the time where Mr. Giwer can clean himself from his reputation as
a hypocritical liar. He only needs to provide some physical evidence for his assertions in
order to live up to his own standards.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 29 14:06:29 PDT 1996
Article: 54192 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Math for Myshkin
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 20:48:59 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 8
Distribution: world
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
[...]
>My advice to Myshkin is that he stay away from posting about chemistry
>and go back to threatening frivolous lawsuits.

No! I would rather see him talking to me about historical terms.. :))

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Jul 29 21:05:25 PDT 1996
Article: 54230 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marx vs Mordecai Levy
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 20:50:35 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

>Wasn't it Mordecai Levy?

Does anybody know this "jbelling"-guy? I had to enjoy some of
his one-line witticisms over the the last couple of days.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Jul 30 07:34:15 PDT 1996
Article: 54333 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hitler praiser Reinhardt and Mahler?
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 14:44:07 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 59
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The original German text? No problem...

[Irving]
>The same Hitler who had issued ruthless orders for the execution of the
> Soviet commissars was by no means as hostile as Goebbles desired toward
> western Europe's more cultivated Jews. He heard Hitler speak warmly of
> both the composer Gustav Mahler and the producer Max Reinhardt
> (Max Goldmann), and concede that in their performances the Jews were often
> *not bad*

[The English translation of the Goebbels diary]
> We discuss issues affecting the theatre.  The Fu"hrer is very
> interested.  He explains such phenomena as Mahler or Max Reinhardt,
> whose abilities and achievements he does not deny.  The Jew can
> often be  quite successful when it comes to mimicry.
> _The Goebbel's Diaries 1939-1941_, translated by Fred Taylor, p. 214,
> Putnam and Sons, New York (1983).

[R. Green]
> My Comment: Irving seems to interpret this comment as more complimentary
> than would be expected.  Perhaps, Irving is a fan of mimicry.

[Ehrlich]
> Actually, at this point it would be interesting to know what the German
> wording is.  Here, according to your translation, his praise of Mahler and
> Reinhardt is confirmed.  What mimicry has to with it, I do not know.

[The original text]

	Wir besprechen Theaterfragen. Der Fuehrer ist sehr interessiert. Er erklaert
	 Erscheinungen wie Mahler oder Max Reinhardt, deren Faehigkeiten und
	 Verdienste er nicht abstreitet. In der Reproduktion vermag der Jude manchmal
	 etwas zu leisten.
	_Die Tagebuecher von Joseph Goebbels: Saemtliche Fragmente, Teil I, Band 4_,
	Ed. Elke Froehlich, Muenchen etc.: K.G. Saur, 1987, p. 441.

Although the first translation is not very good, not even this version allows Irvings
interpretation. The original quotation has to be translated the following way:

	We discuss issues affecting the theatre. The Fuehrer is very interested. He explains
	such phenomena as Mahler or Max Reinhardt whose abilites and achievement he
	does not deny. Sometimes the Jew may achieve something in imitation.

Hitler is hardly praising Reinhardt or Mahler here, since he is denying their originality as
artists. "Mimicry" is the central point of the quotations. As Hitler has stated often enough,
he divides the races into "producers of culture", "keepers of culture" and "destroyers of
culture".  "Aryans" belong to the first, "the Jew" to the last category. This division is
reaffirmed in the quotation. Exceptations to the rule can only be explained in the way
that the Jewish artist reproduces achievments "Aryans" have reached before.

No we have to ask, how did Irving come to his astonishing interpretation? Either he does
know German, than we have caught him again bungling, translating wrongly. Or he does
not know German, than we have to ask how it is possible to do extensive studies on
sources when he cannot even read the original text? Looks again like bungling to me...

Either way, Irving's reputation doesn't look good...

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Jul 31 13:57:54 PDT 1996
Article: 54498 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conventional Stratified Holocaust or Jews Only Care About Jews
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 14:49:00 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tkigs$ime@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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>an572010@anon.penet.fi (Vyshinsky) wrote:
[snip]
>> 	Not only the usual feminist bullshit but clear evidence that "in house" the
>> atttitude towards the holocaust is rather completely off of the wall.

>  Excerpts From

>"The Diary of Hannah Rosen:
>Europe's Jews and America'sResponse, 1937-1945"
>  by Elizabeth S. Rothschild

[snip]

And your point is what?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Jul 31 13:57:56 PDT 1996
Article: 54499 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Bendel Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 15:00:11 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tkj5r$ime@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	Fascinating is it not?  I have not confirmed this but I happened to catch Dr.
>Dean Adell (sp?) reading from something he received from some Cremation
>Society.  One of the things he read was that the return of metal is by special
>request.  This does appear to be the standard procedure.

"I have not confirmed this", "(sp?)", "something", "from someone", "does appear"

Not one clear fact in the whole passage. Does this man really wants to be taken
seriously?

Nele

P.S. When will Mr. Giwer stop running away and comment on my dissecting his
silly interpretation of the Wannsee document?






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