The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Terror versus Truth in Canada:
An Interview With Ernst Zundel

conducted by Kevin Alfred Strom

ON THE FRONT LINES in the war to save our people is where you will find
German-Canadian free speech advocate and revisionist author and
publisher Mr. Ernst Zundel of Toronto. Mr. Zundel in recent weeks has
very nearly become a martyr for his beliefs, being the victim of an
arson attack which severely damaged his home and which surely would have
killed him had he been at home as usual, and then the victim of a mail
bomb cleverly disguised as a book and which he had the good sense to
turn over to police when he became suspicious because of its weight. The
controlled media, which are ever so vigilant to protect the rights of
minorities and leftists and raise a hue and cry from coast to coast when
one of their pets gets a scratch or a bruise or has his feelings hurt,
have uttered hardly a peep at these and many other vicious attacks
against Mr. Zundel.

STROM: Welcome to American Dissident Voices. It is an honor to have such
a brave champion of free speech as a guest. There are few people in this
world who would be willing to struggle and fight for what they believe
to be true as you have. In recent weeks you have been the victim of an
arson attack and a mail bomb. There must be those who passionately hate
you and what you are doing.

Well, the hate campaign has actually been of a much longer duration than
just recent weeks. It has never taken as violent a form, except we had
one bomb go off in 1984, but then things died down because the people
that were my opposite numbers, usually the holocaust promotion lobby,
were able to drag me into a Canadian court and keep me in there, tied up
in litigation, for nine years after that. While I was in court the
violence was by JDL [Jewish Defense League] demonstrators that knocked
me to the ground, and who tried to attack my legal team as they went
into court, and beat some of my witnesses on the way to court, and so
on. But generally we had very good police protection, and when I found
that the police protection wasn't swift enough or adequate, I organized
my own.

STROM: So there has been an ongoing campaign of violence against you for
over a decade.

Oh, yes. To me this is just an escalation. The reason why I have
survived as long as I have survived is what my friends, comrades and
supporters thought was an extraordinarily cautious approach. I wore
bulletproof vests, and my bodyguards had the option of having
bulletproof vests -- I bought five sets. I had former policemen and
active policemen who were on holiday as my security advisors. I had
searchlights on my building that came on with sensors. We have spent a
lot of money on time-lapse recorders, and that paid off in this
particular arson attack because we actually filmed the arsonist in the
process of pouring 20 liters of gasoline, which is about five gallons,
on the wall on the front of my building. Unfortunately, there was only
one person in the building at the time, and they were in a back room and
didn't see that monitor at the moment. Our cameras have also paid off in
that we have trapped numerous people that heaved objects or who tried to
pull signs down from our building. You have to understand that we are
located on one of the most busy thoroughfares in Toronto. We have
bylaws, like all large cities, which only allow you to erect fences up
to a certain point. The city forced us a few months ago to take a
security fence down by two feet. We cannot put barbed wire around,
naturally, because this is a residential and business zoned area. There
is, of course, a certain amount of protection from being within the
center of the city, because there are always people about. This is how
it came about that a person saw the arsonist actually walking along the
street, carrying his can of gasoline, and the police got an excellent
description. So, between our security video and the man's description I
have every confidence that, with the help of my $5,000 cash reward, we
will apprehend that man and that man will be brought to trial. Through
him, we will find out who paid him to do the job.

STROM: When did this arson attack occur and how much damage was there?

It was 5 a.m. on the seventh of May, and some people have said that it
was deliberately designed with the VE-Day celebrations in mind. As a
matter of fact, I was in Western Canada, in British Columbia, at the
time to meet with my long-standing attorney Douglas Christie to talk
about legal moves against public officials and some of these Marxists
and Jewish agitators that were saying they were going to drive me out of
the neighborhood. They had established a committee to drive me out of
the neighborhood where I live and carry on a lawful business where I
think and write and speak -- which is constitutionally protected even in
Canada. We were going to make moves under the criminal code of Canada,
but it never came to that because the morning news was that my house had
been torched. Unfortunately, my own private, really priceless library
suffered almost total loss. Some of these books were three or four
hundred years old. Many of them were bequeathed to me by older Europeans
for my work. The unfortunate thing is, for the contents of the building
I could not get any insurance anywhere in Canada. Once you are a victim
of a bombing, you enter a risk group to which they will not sell

STROM: That is a tragedy. It could have been worse, though: people might
have been killed.

Oh, yes. Had I been in Toronto, I would certainly have been killed in
this attack. In the room where I normally sleep, the flames and the
smoke and the soot is such that the gases would have killed me.

STROM: Now you have also been the victim of attempted murder via mail

Yes. That's another kind of an odd situation, in that the bomb that was
mailed came in the guise of a parcel, and the parcel looked like any
other book. When we felt it, it was unduly heavy. There was a cover on
it; there was a curved spine on it; and it certainly was a book. But I
compared other books with it on our scale and realized that even with
the heaviest paper it would require a much larger volume than this
parcel had to be the same weight. Either somebody was sending me gold
bricks or something worse.

I had a fortunate phone call from Vancouver from a long-time
acquaintance and political collaborator of mine. When we told him the
P.O. box number on the parcel he said, Well, heck, that's my P.O. box
number! I was shocked. I had seen the man two weeks ago. He had never
said he was going to send me a parcel. It was a two year old P.O. box

So I went to the police. I took the bomb in my car, drove down to the
police station, and got promptly chewed out by the police people. They
said one shouldn't drive around the city carrying bombs in the trunk of
a car.

STROM: Yes [laughter].

I didn't know it was a bomb at that time, I just suspected it to be one.
And besides, I'm so in Dutch with my neighbors here that I thought that
was better than getting them all upset with what might be a fake bomb
scare where they'd have to clear out the whole neighborhood. If it was a
fake I'd look ridiculous, so I didn't call anybody from the media. I
figured since we'd had it in my office for almost a week, and had
handled it, that if it was a bomb it was of a kind that would not
explode unless one opened it. The bomb squad in Toronto deduced exactly
the same thing after they handled it and x-rayed it. So I wasn't so
stupid after all. I had deposited it in an empty area of the parking lot
of the police station. Then the bomb squad did its thing with the robot.
They put it in an explosion-proof container, and drove it off into an
uninhabited area and exploded it.

STROM: Are you ever worried that your nine lives are going to run out
some day?

[Laughter] Well, I think I have six or seven left!

The really interesting thing is that after the police and bomb experts
were through examining it, they stated that it was a very powerful pipe
bomb that would have killed anybody within 90 meters of the blast. In
American measurement, that's about 300 feet. And I live in a very
densely populated area, as I said in the downtown Toronto area on a main
thoroughfare. If that thing had gone off in this building it might have
leveled the block.

STROM: Are there any leads or suspects?

For the bombing, not really; it's too early in the investigation.

The interesting thing is that on the 13th of April, I had been sent,
from a Vancouver address, an envelope containing a mousetrap to which
were attached some very sharp blades. In it was a threatening letter
that said it was from the Anti-Fascist Militia. They said that this
was a declaration of war and that this was only the first device and
that the next one may well be boom. That is how the letter ended.

Over the years, when you have a high profile, you get threatening
letters and you get lots of threatening phone calls. I got a little more
concerned since this organization was founded to drive me out of the
neighborhood, and thousands of posters were distributed all around
Toronto with instructions on them for how to build a Molotov cocktail,
meaning a fire-bomb, an arson bomb, along with a picture of my face in
the crosshairs of a rifle, and my address. The headline on the poster
was Bored?, then the Molotov cocktail, then my house and address and
my face. I turned all these things over to the authorities, I mailed
them in press releases to the Canadian media, I made them available to
the intelligence agencies that look after security in this country. I
did what every citizen ought to do, plus I really fortified my building
to the point where some people referred to it as a bunker, which it
was not. It was just a very secure building. But even if you are on a
main drag, you are not immune to arson.

STROM: Have the authorities vigorously pursued these cases?

You know, many people have called me, friends from the nationalist camp,
revisionists and so on, from around the world, have called me over the
years -- and now again because of what happened -- and they are all very
cynical about the police and the authorities. I'd have to say that in my
case -- and I don't say this because I expect favors from the Toronto
police, I'm just saying it because it's a fact -- the Toronto police
department has been the one organization in my tremendously difficult
and protracted struggle against the Zionist holocaust promotion lobby
that has shown professionalism and a detached method of dealing with me.
They have accorded me my constitutional rights, and that is to their
credit because the media hate campaign against me has been so intense
and so vicious that it's a miracle that the police have taken such a
professional approach. I am convinced that if there are fingerprints on
any of these devices, if there are leads that my $5,000 reward poster
will bring, the police will vigorously pursue these people.

Now the next question is: Will the courts, will the prosecutors
vigorously prosecute this case? I don't think so.

STROM: What makes you feel that way?

Because the police did arrest eight people outside my building after a
recent violent demonstration. You have to understand, we've had
demonstrations in my neighborhood that were supposed to go outside my
building of up to three and four thousand people. The last one was only
about 250 people. It was quite violent. The people who were
demonstrating were followed by the police, and eight of them were
arrested for threatening policemen with two-by-fours, causing mischief,
and throwing objects at the police. The police were quite prepared for
firebugs, because I saw a special unit with four different policemen
carrying fire extinguishers during the demonstration, which is highly
unusual. So the police are not the problem.

The problem was that the lady prosecutor in Toronto did such a non-
prosecution -- such a poorly prepared prosecution -- that she didn't
submit the color video tapes we had showing the camouflaged faces of
these terrorist demonstrators, where we had zoomed in on people who were
throwing objects, showing others who were threatening police with two-
by-four beams, and so on. None of this was introduced into evidence.

The judge turned his back towards me, sitting back on his judge's chair,
while I was in the witness stand being questioned. The whole courtroom
was full of these anarchists, leftists, communists and Jewish lobbyists.
He treated me like a piece of dung, and let all of these eight people

The police did the right thing -- they protected private property, they
protected my constitutional right to speak, they brought these people to
justice, they arrested them, they charged them properly, and then
everything fell apart. If I was a leftist Marxist demonstrator bent on
making life difficult for a man like Ernst Zundel, I would take this as
official encouragement.

STROM: Indeed. It seems to me that the media are culpable as well. In
this country, we've heard virtually nothing of what's happened to you.

In Toronto, the people that really lit the fuse were the mainstream
media. They have engaged in a hate campaign, in a shameful and shameless
way -- especially since the 50th anniversary celebrations of the end of
the Second World War. Also guilty, I think, are the people who put up
posters outside my house claiming that it was to celebrate VE-Day that
they torched my house. You cannot stoke the fires of prejudice against
German people and then not find that somewhere, sometime down the road
it doesn't discharge. And that's what has happened. They agitated and
agitated and agitated, until finally they found an unbalanced enough
person and they put the torch to my house.

STROM: The organized Jewish and leftist groups want to shut you up and
stifle debate on the subject of what really happened to the Jewish
people during World War II. But by putting you on trial ten years ago,
they created the biggest public debate on the subject that the world has
ever seen.

Yes. They basically scored what we call in German an eigentor, they
scored a goal against themselves. Their hatred finally turned against
themselves. The trial of Ernst Zundel has gone down in Canadian history.
We have struck down, through my trial, one of the most pernicious laws -
- a law that could get writers and broadcasters into conflict with the
law very easily. The Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional, and we
defined in the process our new bill of rights, the Charter of Rights and
Freedoms, in a way that is almost American. In other words, they're
leaning very heavily on the American model. I have only been able to do
my own broadcasts and my own TV and public access shows because of this
Supreme Court definition and victory. So it's true: they pursued me for
nine years in the courts; and in the end, evil produced good.

STROM: You've recently published a huge, 564-page book detailing your
trial and it is full of magnificent documentation of the evidence that
was brought to bear there.

It was compiled by my attorney, Barbara Kulaszka, and is titled Did Six
Million Really Die?: Report of the Evidence in the Canadian False News
Trial of Ernst Zundel. It is a condensation of 12,700 pages of trial
transcripts into a readable form. It really is, as one of the leading
professors in Europe called it, an encyclopedia of the holocaust,
because both sides are presented. The prosecution witnesses, including
Dr. Hilberg from the United States who is known as the pope of the
`holocaust', Christopher Browning, his disciple, and others are cross-
examined in a court. What we're looking at here is not just a book, it
is testimony given under oath and verified by cross-examination. People
don't have to go and buy trashy pro-holocaust or even smaller anti-
holocaust books. It's all in one book: the holocaust as a historical
event, or non-event has been solved. It has been explained in detail in
a courtroom in Toronto.

What we have to do now is to make the public at large aware that what
we're looking at is not a historical event but -- and I have to be
brutal and I am going to say it -- a racket. It is a racket which
defrauds nations. The German nation was its first and principal victim,
to the tune of 100 billion Deutsche marks plus. There were times when
the state of Israel got up to 40 or 41 per cent of its budget, directly
or indirectly from these reparations -- money the German people paid
for propaganda. For an event that was wholly created in the poisonous
psychological warfare kitchens of the Second World War, run by the
ministries of propaganda in many countries, not just by the British or
the Americans, but also the Russians and undoubtedly the world Jewish
organizations. The German people have been defrauded out of 100 billion
Deutsche marks. It's a racket. It is not a historical event.

I am not against Jewish people, or any other person, who unlawfully,
illegally, or immorally was deprived of his freedom in the Second World
War getting restitution. Or if there were Jewish business people in
Germany that had their businesses seized, they should be restituted
properly. The German nation is magnanimous even in defeat, and they have
a sense of justice and they certainly want to repair damage that was
done unjustly. I am totally in favor of that. But not to let generations
of German people to be defrauded, and then to be vilified by films like
Spielberg's Schindler's List.

STROM: You call yourself a revisionist.

Yes I do.

STROM: Now that term has been sullied by the media. The media try to
give the impression that revisionists are part of some sort of sinister
movement to revise history a la George Orwell's 1984. But it is really
quite the opposite. Can you explain why you call yourselves

It is a very good point that you are touching on here. American people,
French people, English people, even Jewish revisionists like David Cole
and the man who was a witness for me, Joseph Burg, and the French
[Jewish] Professor Dommergue: these are people that merely want to look
at history, bring it into accord with the facts, meaning historical
documents and events; strip it of rhetoric and propaganda; and then
basically write a factual history.

But as a German -- and I am German-born -- we Germans are condemned once
again to be radical revisionists. Because, you see, we lost our honor as
a nation. We lost our self-esteem. We also lost the institutions of our
country. We were not allowed to organically build on our long history
and heritage. So a German revisionist has to not only revise historical
facts but also bring borders into question, because we were stripped of
vast territories in the Second World War. As a German revisionist, I
cast a far wider net than an American revisionist or a French
revisionist. They are engaged in what Dr. Faurisson, the world's most
famous revisionist, calls the greatest intellectual adventure at the
tail end of the twentieth century. To me as a German person, I want my
nation's honor restored. I want lies to be exposed as lies, frauds as
frauds. I want borders to be recognized where ethnic Germans were living
long before America was discovered. In Germany, we must have an internal
revision of our political system, that was grafted upon us by Allied
conquerors. Conquerors never, never conquer a nation to bring freedom.
They brought control. The government in power in West Germany, which is
now expanded all the way to the Oder River, is nothing but an instrument
of Allied control, not of freedom. We Germans need revision from the
inside -- of our borders, of our institutions. Americans are lucky: they
can only concern themselves with were there gas chambers, or were there
not gas chambers? I am the most radical and the most sweeping of the
revisionists, and this is why some of the more intellectual revisionists
sometimes look upon me a little askance. They can afford to be scholars.
I am a street activist revisionist because we, as Germans, want our
country back, want our honor back. We want our father's generation to be
exonerated and rehabilitated. By the year 2000, I hope that the job is
done regardless of bombs or fires.

STROM: I am sorry to say that most Americansand I talk to ordinary
Americans every dayeven Americans of German descent, who get their news
from the newspapers and the major TV networks, think that holocaust
revisionists are either kooks or hate-filled bigots. Everyone knows,
so they say, that the Germans killed six million innocent Jewish people
by gassing. To say that they didn't is the equivalent of saying that the
Civil War never happened. What do you say to such people? What is the
strongest evidence for your doubt of the six million story?

That's a very good, broad, and sweeping question. As you know, I
commissioned an American gas chamber expert, an execution expert named
Fred Leuchter, to go to Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek, which were
allegedly the industrial killing centers where the Germans supposedly
dispatched all kinds of people to their deaths in gas chambers. That man
came back with 33 samples -- soil samples, rock samples, samples from
the drains, the walls, the ceilings. He took a draftsman along and a
video photographer who recorded all the activities while they were
taking the samples. All of these samples were bagged. They were only
handled with rubber gloves. They were numbered and dated. Special
technical drawings were made of all the installations, and it was marked
where in each installation these samples were taken. They were taken to
the United States, and were tested in a blind test; the lab was not told
what they were testing. They thought it was an industrial accident. They
came back with absolutely no traces of any of the killing compound in
some of the major gas chambers. For instance, in Auschwitz-1, where
they have taken all the tourists through for the last 40 years, not a
single trace of the compound Zyklon-B was found. This is, to me,
scientific forensic proof. Science doesn't suspend its rules or its laws
for Zionists, for Communists, for Nazis, or for anybody else.

STROM: Are you saying that these were the rooms where it is claimed that
mass executions by gas took place?


STROM: These very rooms show no traces of the killing compounds?

No traces, or very minute ones, and the very minute ones are
explainable: as morgues, and that's what these rooms were, they had to
be fumigated. When dead bodies are put into a morgue, they get cold, and
then lice leave that dead body. The louse was the chief carrier of the
typhus disease. These rooms had to be fumigated once in a while. And we
have taken a test sample of a chamber, an actual delousing chamber,
which the Poles, the Germans, the Jews and everybody else agrees had
been a delousing chamber for mattresses, uniforms, and so on. We took a
sample from that as a kind of guiding sample, and compared to what it
was in the gas chambers, where millions were supposed to have been
exterminated by gas, it is incredible how high the residue was there.
And how nonexistent or very small it was in the alleged gas chambers.

STROM: This report, called The Leuchter Report, is included in your
encyclopedic book.

That's right. The full examination, with all the drawings and so in, is
in there, as well as the booklet for which I was charged and which was
the basis for the nine-year litigation.
If any of your listeners are interested, I don't know if you'll permit
me to make a little commercial, but for $50 plus $5 postage, we will
send them this thick book. It will save them months or years of going
down the false track, as Dr. Faurisson said. Dr. Faurisson researched
for years in the wrong direction. With this one book, we can save you
years out of your life.

STROM: I will be offering that book later in the program.

STROM: You have admitted a patriotic motivation for wanting to clear
Germans of these accusations in the hate propaganda against them. Is
there a political motivation on the part of all holocaust
revisionists? Are they all on the political right?

Actually, that is a complete misunderstanding and it was created by the
holocaust promotion lobby; organizations such as the Simon Wiesenthal
Center. It's simply not true.

My Romanian Jewish friend Joseph Burg, who was a holocaust revisionist
and has written five books, was certainly not pro-nationalist or pro-
Nazi. He was himself put into pales of settlement during the Second
World War. Many of these people are unabashed champions of truth. They
are championing truth above all. It goes way back to the French
socialist and member of the French national assembly, Paul Rassinier,
and down to Dr. Faurisson. Dr. Faurisson came to revisionism as a man of
the left, not of the right. I remember when I first met him in
California in 1979, he was certainly anything but nationalist. Bradley
Smith in the United States, who was married at one time to a Jewish
woman, certainly is anything but National Socialist or nationalist. The
same can be said for so many other revisionists.

That I, Ernst Zundel, as a German, am passionately pro-German I think
people can understand or ought to understand. If America was ever
befallen by a tragedy, like the German people were, I hope and I pray
that American sons would rise up and defend America the way I try to
defend my own ethnic group. I am not saying that during the Second World
War Germany did not, under the leadership of the National Socialist
government, commit crimes. In hindsight, with 20/20 vision today, that
means deprive people of their liberty, put them in concentration camps,
deny their human rights. I was horrified when during my trial I found
out how easily people could be put in concentration camps in England, in
Canada, in America, in Germany. There seems to have been a whole
concentration camp syndrome going on in the whole Western world. So we
should not judge countries like Germany, or even the incarceration of
Japanese-Canadians in Canada or Japanese-Americans in America, with our
20/20 hindsight, and being as sensitized to human rights as we are
today. It was not fashionable in 1935, 1940, 1941, or 1942 to be a human
rights activist. It certainly wasn't fashionable in Canada. I know of
none that protested the incarceration of the Japanese. I don't know of
many in the United States. I certainly haven't heard of any Russian
human rights activists during the time of Stalin's Gulag. And in England
it was the same.

I think we should put the war behind us. There is world of ignorance and
apathy to be conquered. Historical revisionism is a tool to make the
historical record conform to documents, not to propaganda.

STROM: Usually history is written by the victors. You are trying to
correct that 50 years later.

This is so often said to me, and I am so sick and tired of people saying
it's justified. Everything is justified, because after all we won
the Second World War.

If that is true, then all the GIs, all the British Tommies, all the
Canadian soldiers, and all the other soldiers that were part of this
coalition of 51 countries that were at war with Germany, have to take
responsibility for what has befallen the Western world today, and the
world generally. The subjugation by Stalin of half of Europe: 250
million Europeans that lived for half a century under this horrific
Soviet empire, and all of the millions of deaths that ensued as a result
of that -- they are responsible for that. It's not all motherhood and
apple pie. Also, those GIs who bombed Germany into the stone age are
responsible for what has happened to our society in America, in Canada,
in England. They are responsible for our current immigration policies.

It's not fashionable or Politically Correct to say it, but I have earned
the right by incarceration, fines, bombs, and arson, and I tell you that
the mess that we are in today, the cesspool that our societies
collectively have become, the thievery, the whole litany of travails of
the Western world, all began in 1945.

STROM: I've said it before on this program, and I'll say it again: 1945
was a victory for Communism and those who were behind Communism on both
sides of the Atlantic.

That's right. I want to plead for my own father's generation. It was a
magnificent generation. That generation of Germans, along with
volunteers from Denmark, Holland, even England and the Free India
division and so on, we Europeans were alert and awake to the danger of
Bolshevism. Fifty years before President Reagan called it the evil
empire, my father was fighting the evil empire at the gates of Moscow. I
think that it's about time that the Western world forget its breast-
beating and pay respect to those men who fought their way to Stalingrad
trying to topple that evil empire. There is nothing redeeming about
Stalin's Bolshevism, and it is a shame that Western man, that Europeans,
that German-Americans, that Anglo-Saxons would ally themselves with the
Soviet Union to battle to the ground a European power. I am not saying
that Hitler was a choir boy. But I am saying, let him who was innocent
in the Second World War cast the first stone.

STROM: When is there going to a monument or a major Hollywood movie
depicting and memorializing the deaths of those who died under
Communism? I'd like to see that happen.

I am very hopeful. I have lived in North America, and have watched the
struggle for freedom, internally in Canada and America. Especially in
America. I have every hope that salvation -- and this might sound
strange to you as an American -- will come from America. The defeat of
Europe came from America. Stalin was beaten by the Germans. America
saved Bolshevism. I am quite sure that freedom will be saved, and that
freedom will come from North America. Our concept that we have now in
Canada and America of freedom of speech allows us to correct history.
Just yesterday, I had a phone call from Germany, from a young German who
had attended a lecture by Raul Hilberg, the pope of the `holocaust',
who said in Heidelberg less than a week ago that we must not shut off
the debate about the holocaust. We must be allowed to ask questions
about the holocaust.

STROM: That is a heartening sign, but in many nations you can now be
jailed for doubting the six million story.

You're looking at one who did. I just spent six days, for that very
reason, in a German jail and just recently was convicted and fined
12,600 marks, which is about $10,000. This is now going to the European
human rights court, because the the German judicial system did not allow
Fred Leuchter, Dr. Robert Faurisson, and the German chemical expert G.
Rudolf to appear as witnesses, even though all three were in the witness
room, ready to give their testimony. They refused to allow me to present
exonerating evidence, or at least reasons for why I thought what I
thought. That's totally illegal under the European human rights code,
and I am quite sure that eventually we are going to reverse this

STROM: Well, I hope that these laws are also reversed. From an American
perspective, where we still, just barely, have freedom of speech (though
Zionist lobby groups are trying to take that right away from us), I find
it almost inconceivable that people are being jailed for doubting
someone's version of a particular event that happened 50 years ago. It's
like Alice's Through the Looking Glass. It's insanity.

I am, as a European, absolutely shocked by European people. I am also
shocked by European nationalist people. They have allowed themselves to
be so emasculated so silently. I, of course, have become acculturated in
North America. I am particularly proud of what Americans and German-
Americans achieved 200 years ago with the American constitution, with
the Bill of Rights and its various amendments. I claim that as part of
our German-North American heritage. I'm sad that we were never able to
export it to Europe. If Europe had -- if Germany had -- if France had --
if the peripheral countries in Europe had a semblance of your system we
could at least begin to make a change because we would have the freedom
to speak. This is why America is so very important. All the troubles
that you and I know that exist in America are minute compared to the
problems that we would have if we could not speak out and try to correct

STROM: You have been hounded for your beliefs. Your business was ruined.
For nearly a decade of your life you were fighting jail or deportation
in court, and now you have nearly been killed. Most men would have given
up long ago, and gone and watched the birds or tended their gardens.
What makes you keep going? Why do you do it?

Many people, my sons and my grandchildren have asked me this, and I can
only say to you that once your conscious mind is expanded to the truth
of what really happened, it is so horrific. The world is really in the
grip of manipulated history that will take us all down. It's like in
computerese: Garbage in; garbage out. If we persist in thinking that
what we have is history and use it as a precedent to build a better
society we are going to inherit nothing but ruins. I want a better
world, a cleaner world, a safer world, a saner world. The men who died
on the German side, I can assure you, 99 per cent of those men died for
a noble cause. There were almost 10 million German people who gave their
lives in the Second World War, civilians and soldiers. They did not have
to die in vain. I'm making sure that their deaths are ennobled by me
sticking up for what they fought for.

STROM: I think you ennoble the deaths of the American soldiers too,
quite frankly. They believed that they were fighting for freedom of
speech among other things.

I sure have pity for American soldiers, for Canadian veterans, and for
British veterans. When they see their subways, when they hear from their
grandchildren that they are no longer safe in their school-yards, and
when they watch their public television become a kind of cesspool that
purveys drug addiction and so on, I wonder if those veterans are not
suffering greater psychological trauma and pain than the Germans who at
least know that they were militarily defeated and they couldn't change

STROM: I can tell you that I know several, Mr. Zundel. I know one man
who literally cannot speak of his service in World War II. He was on a
bomber that bombed Germany, and he cannot speak of it. He is reduced to

I think that the time has come to stretch out our hand to all those who
were deceived, as well as even the deceivers. In all my programs, and in
all of my writings, I've always extended my hand to decent Jews and
people who served the Allied cause.

I say to them: Fifty years have gone by. The war was a tragedy for all
of us: all who were touched by it, not just Jews. Jews have no copyright
on pain. Let's now get on with our lives and create a better world.

STROM: How can our listeners contact you if they'd like to know more
about your efforts and your publications?

They can write to 206 Carlton Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5A 2L1.

STROM: Mr. Zundel, I admire your courage, and I want to thank you from
the bottom of my heart for your uncompromising stand for the truth in an
age of lies.

STROM: Thank you also for being my guest on American Dissident Voices.

Thank you, Kevin Strom. Auf Wiedersehen.

This article was based on the American Dissident Voices programs of 3d
and 10th June, 1995. A cassette recording containing these two programs
is available for $12 postpaid from National Vanguard Books. The book
referred to in the interview, Did Six Million Really Die?: The Evidence
in the False News Trial of Ernst Zundel, which contains the entire
text of the Leuchter Report and a full reproduction of the book which
triggered the Jewish-led prosecution of Mr. Zundel, along with the
evidence presented by both sides at this history-making trial, is
available for $50 plus $1.50 postage and handling from National Vanguard
Books as our item number 595.

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