From oucsace!dspiegel Tue Aug  2 00:46:25 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz facts: Where to find them
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Jul28.223120.5451@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 04:36:53 GMT

Sorry to follow up my own post, but I took the monumental step of
going to my bookcase and opening my copy of _Night_.

In article  
dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) writes:

     "Interesting. The Germans told Auschwitz inmates that the 
     Soviets were coming, and offered them a chance to either leave 
     with the Germans or stay and wait for the Soviets. Few waited. 
     In fact, Elie Wiesel and his father opted for the Germans, as 
     can be read in his book, `Night.'"
     (Raven, Greg.greg.ihr-310794231809@DialupNewsWatcher)

Wiesel:

   "At four o'clock on the afternoon of the same day, as usual 
   the bell summoned all the heads of the blocks to go and report.

   "They came back shattered. They could only just open their lips 
   enough to say the word: evacuation. The camp was to be emptied, 
   and we were to be sent futher back. Where to? To somewhere right 
   in the depths of Germany, to other camps; there was no shortage 
   of them.

   "`When?'
   "`Tomorrow Evening.'
   "`Perhaps the Russians will arrive first.'
   "`Perhaps.'

   "We knew perfectly well that they would not." (Wiesel, 92)

Well, Greg, it seems that contrary to your assertion, the prisoners
were hoping the Russians would arrive before they had to be evacuated.
The text doesn't say "We feared the Russians...", it says "Perhaps...".

Now we'll see that the alternative wasn't Germans vs. Russians, as
our "scholar" implies, but Germans vs. death. 

(cont. from above)
   
   "The camp had become a hive. People ran about, shouting at one 
   another.  In all the blocks, preparation for the journey was 
   going on. I had forgotten about my bad foot. A doctor came into 
   the room and announced:

      "`Tomorrow, immediately after nightfall, the camp will set 
      out. Block after block. Patients will stay in the infirmary. 
      They will not be evacuated.'

   "This news made us think. Were the SS going to leave hundreds of 
   prisoners to strut about in the hospital blocks, waiting for their 
   liberators? Were they going to let the Jews hear the twelfth stroke 
   sound? Obviously not.

   "`All the invalids will be summarily killed', said the faceless 
   one [He was another prisoner - DS]. `And sent to the crematory in 
   a final batch.'

   "`The camp is certain to be mined,' said another. `The moment the 
   evacuation's over, it'll blow up.' (Wiesel, 92)

Uh, Greg? Enough for you? So, why did you, at best, misrepresent
the context of the passage? Tell us, when did you read _Night_?
Who told you how to distort that passage? Since when do people 
prefer their persecutors over their liberators?

Here's what you wrote:

   "Interesting. The Germans told Auschwitz inmates that the Soviets 
   were coming, and offered them a chance to either leave with the 
   Germans or stay and wait for the Soviets. Few waited. In fact, Elie 
   Wiesel and his father opted for the Germans, as can be read in his 
   book, `Night.'" (Raven)

It is true that those left behind by the evacuation were not 
murdered, and that Elie Wiesel and his father opted for the Germans,
but you deliberately (what else could be the explanation?) asserted
out of context. It is clear that the perception was that anyone
who didn't choose to go would be murdered. You clearly distorted 
the meaning of this passage in your assertion to try to make your point 
that the Jewish prisoners preferred to stay with the Germans instead 
of waiting for the Soviets. 

In short, you are either a foolish parrot, or a deliberate liar.

[irrelevant material snipped]

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Raven's weaving a web of lies 
         (was Re: Mr. Raven, why did you distort Wiesel's _Night_?)
Message-ID: 
Organization: Ohio University C.S. Dept, Athens
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 01:45:39 GMT

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>In article ,
>k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
 
>> D.J. Schaeffer has kindly given me permission to repost his August 2nd
>> article, which asks Mr. Raven some tough questions about his distortion
>> of Elie Wiesel's famous book _Night_.  Everything between this paragraph
>> and my signature is taken from that article.  This article is being
>> emailed to Mr. Raven to ensure that he sees it.

As has been said, I wrote the article. The point, however, is that it
is not important who wrote the article, as I consider myself a bit player
among far more substantial individuals when it comes to access to sources
and abilities as amateur historians. The important thing is that without
leaving the room in which my computer sits, I was able to show conclusively
that GREG RAVEN IS A LIAR, and that I am not the first who was able to
prove this, nor will I be the last. I did probably have the easiest time
of it. 

As Danny Keren wrote, how could someone be so stupid as Raven,
to distort something so widely available? If I hadn't known what 
complete knuckleheads these "scholars" are (and during my vacation
I see a few new ones have arrived, further demonstrating the
collective "scholarship" of their group; I wonder if the IHR conference
has a collective IQ of 150), I'd think they were plants whose job
was to discredit the views of deniers by asserting material indicative of low
intelligence.

>	[Quoted text deleted - e-mail if you need a copy]

I wrote:

>>     Uh, Greg? Enough for you? So, why did you, at best, misrepresent
>> the context of the passage? Tell us, when did you read _Night_?
>> Who told you how to distort that passage? Since when do people 
>> prefer their persecutors over their liberators?

>>    Here's what you wrote:

>> >Interesting. The Germans told Auschwitz inmates that the Soviets were
>> >coming, and offered them a chance to either leave with the Germans or stay
>> >and wait for the Soviets. Few waited. In fact, Elie Wiesel and his father
>> >opted for the Germans, as can be read in his book, "Night."

>>    It is true that those left behind by the evacuation were not 
>> murdered, and that Elie Wiesel and his father opted for the Germans,
>> but you deliberately (what else could be the explanation?) asserted
>> out of context. It is clear that the perception was that anyone
>> who didn't choose to go would be murdered. You clearly distorted 
>> the meaning of this passage in your assertion to try to make your point 
>> that the Jewish prisoners preferred to stay with the Germans instead 
>> of waiting for the Soviets. 

>>    In short, you are either a foolish parrot, or a deliberate liar.

[Mr. Raven]

>So, you are saying that those who remained behind had the perception that
>they were going to be murdered? Yet they stayed behind? 

[Mr. Spiegel]

Where does it fit your original assertion, that the inmates preferred
the Germans to the Russians? I asked you a question, and you evaded it.
Why am I not surprised? I'll ask again. WHY DID YOU DISTORT THE MEANING
OF THE PASSAGE?

As to your new distortions, I never implied that those who stayed 
behind had the perception that they were to be murdered. I stated,
using easily available sources (the book, stupid) that those who
left had the perception that those who remained would be murdered.
This directly contradicted your lie^H^H^Hassertion about the inmates
preferring the Germans to the Russians.

[Mr. Raven]

"And that Wiesel, who claims to have seen Germans throwing babies 
into open pits of flame, if I remember correctly (an event that 
disturbed him so much he claimed he could no longer sleep), later 
thought the Germans were okay? Baffling.

[Mr. Spiegel]

Two things are baffling, alright, Greg. One baffling thing is how you 
can draw the conclusions you do. The other is how you can make assertions 
about the contents of a book which it is clear to me you either haven't 
read or have read and are compelled by some *agenda* to completely ignore
what you read in favor of this *agenda*. Can Brad Smith help us here?

While we're here, where is it implied that because Wiesel went
with the Germans that he thought the Germans were ok? In fact, four or
so pages later (page 97), Wiesel describes the SS thus:

   "They had orders to fire on any who could not keep up [during 
   the evacuation of Buna - DS]. Their fingers on the triggers, they 
   did not deprive themselves of this pleasure. If one of us 
   [inmates - DS] stopped for a second, a sharp shot finished off 
   another filthy son of a bitch."  (Wiesel, 97)

Two things, Greg:

1. How does this imply that Wiesel thought the Germans were ok? 
   Have you considered that maybe he was doing what he had to to
   survive?
2. Tell me, when **did** you read this book?

[Mr. Raven]

   "By the way, you left out mentioning that Wiesel had the conversation 
   with his father in the camp HOSPITAL, where both Wiesel and his father 
   had been treated. Funny kind of death camp, that Birkenau. Not very 
   efficient of those Nazis to spend time and money curing people so they 
   would have to feed them and gas them later.

[Mr. Spiegel]

Dead slaves couldn't aid the war effort, right Greg? Do we have to
start from square one? Some people were enslaved and worked to death.
Do you deny this, too?

Last thing Greg. You are in a classic bind. You told a lie. Now,
instead of admitting your lie, you are forced to tell more lies in
a vain attempt to cover up your first lie. Didn't your Mother ever
tell you "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when our purpose is to
deceive" or some such expression? 

_Night_ is easy reading, Greg. Keep lying about its contents, and 
I'll be here to point out each and every one.

Why don't you just admit your lie, and we can discuss why you, a
professional denier, someone who is PAID to deny, won't discuss issues
extremely pertinent to the events that you deny occurred?

[.signature file snipped]

                            Work Cited

Wiesel, Elie. Night. Fourth Printing, December 1970 (Paperback)

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