From Widmann@gnn.com Thu Jun 27 17:59:56 PDT 1996
Article: 46347 of alt.revisionism
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From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:36:45
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In article  Daniel Keren wrote:
>By the very same standards of debate which allow to claim that
>there is no physical evidence for WW2. 
>
>Go ahead, present your physical evidence that WW2 happened. 

Mr. Keren, you are very mistaken.  It is quite easy to prove that 
certain things DID happen.  It is very difficult to PROVE that 
something did NOT happen.  That is why in our criminal justice 
system, the burden of proof is on the prosecution.  The defense 
does not try to prove the innocence of their client, if they win, 
their client is found NOT GUILTY.  How?  Because the prosecution 
did not prove their case.

The difficulty in proving that something did not occur relies on 
the ability to show its scientific impossibility or at least 
improbability.  If you want to understand the strength of the 
revisionist case, go read Hilberg, Reitlinger, Dawidowicz, and 
Kogon - (you may certainly choose others.)  

Therein you will understand the revisionist argument.


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                                   Richard Widmann
                                         C.O.D.O.H.
                       http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
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From Widmann@gnn.com Fri Jun 28 07:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 46456 of alt.revisionism
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From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to make eyewitness testimony credible
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 07:42:55
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In article <4qlf9e$5i7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> PMccutc103 wrote:
> It's also very good easy to corrupt the testimony
>-- have an eyewitness identify a suspect once and he is likely to 
start
>reconstructing his memory along those lines.  That's why, for 
example, the
>people who identified Demjanjuk (sp?) as Ivan the Terrible, while 
sincere,
>were likely wrong.  

Actually it would be nice to think that the "eyewitnesses" were 
sincere in the Demjanjuk case, however, I find it very doubtful.  I 
point you to an excellent volume entitled, "The Demjanjuk Affair: 
The Rise and Fall of a Show Trial" by Yoram Sheftel (Gollancz - 
London 1994. Sheftel was Demjanjuk's lawyer.  He is a wonderful 
standup fellow, a fervent Israeli nationalist.  Sheftel suffered 
much harrassment for his defense of Demjanjuk including an acid 
attack.  The contradictions of the eyewitnesses regarding "Ivan" 
throughout the years and the general conduct of this trial show 
that only through Sheftel's (and a few other brave individuals) 
intervention was an appalling miscarriage of justice averted.

In regard to a broader question regarding "Ivan the terrible" and 
events at Treblinka, I point you to "Victim of the Holocaust" by 
Hans Peter Rullman (Ukrainian National Center) 1987.

For an analysis of the plausibility of Diesel motors for mass 
extermination, I refer you to:
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/gcgv/diesel.html


*******************************************************************
                                   Richard Widmann
                                         C.O.D.O.H.
                       http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
*******************************************************************



From Widmann@gnn.com Sat Jun 29 07:30:29 PDT 1996
Article: 46641 of alt.revisionism
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From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Gas Chamber at Dachau
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:36:00
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The story of the "gas chamber" at Dachau has resurfaced again (who 
speaks of a recurring thread here at wonderful alt.revisionism?)
Anyway...here's Mr. Porter on the Dachau "chamber."

THE GAS CHAMBER AT DACHAU: 
NOW YOU SEE IT, NOW YOU DON'T 

By Carlos W. Porter

We are all familiar with an instrument called the kaleidoscope,
in which loose bits of glass are reflected by plane mirrors showing
each bit of glass in 6 places at once, creating the illusion of
a symmetrical design.

A similar phenomenon occurs in "War Crimes Trials,"
in which gas chambers are shown in 3 different places at once,
and anywhere from 1 to 6 in number, creating the illusion of a
Common Design (sometimes referred to as a Common Plan) for the
extermination of human beings.

An example of this illusion is the Gas Chamber at Dachau, which
appeared in April of 1945, disappeared from Dachau by November
of that year, only to reappear at Nuremberg in December,after
which it disappeared from Nuremberg and only entered the scene
again as "proven fact" in the trial of Oswald Pohl in
1947 (along with the steam chambers of Treblinka).

The following is, I believe, a complete list of pretrial exhibits
mentioning this "gas chamber", which was to be "proven"
in the First Dachau Trial (trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss). The
gas chamber accusation was dropped before trial. It is apparent
that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers knew before November 15,
1945, that no gas chamber could function in the manner described,
and that other stories of gas chambers functioning in a similar
manner were not true. Yet a decision was made to continue this
accusation in other trials for political reasons.

(Microfilm pages 00005052):

Report of the Atrocities Committed at Dachau Concentration Camp.
Vol. 1. War Crimes Investigation Team No. 6823. Signed by David
Chavez Jr. Colonel, JAGD, 7 May 1945.

(Microfilm pages 0000713):

Exhibit F photograph of gas panel.

"S3 photograph of gas chamber

V2 plan of water and gas installations

V10 shower nozzle removed from gas chamber

V11 label removed from cans (Zyklon) found in or near gas chamber

Page 25 of "Chavez Report", 00089 of microfilm pages:
"The new building had a gas chamber for executions... the
gas chamber was labelled "shower room" over the entrance
and was a large room with airtight doors and double glassed lights,
sealed and gas proof. The ceiling was studded with dummy shower
heads. A small observation peephole, double glassed and 
hermetically
sealed was used to observe the conditions of the victims. There
were grates in the floor. Hydrogen cyanide was mixed in the room
below, and rose into the gas chamber and out the top vents. 
(Exhibit
34)

Dr. Blaha witnessed the first test of the gas chamber in the new
crematorium in early 1944, and examined the 7 victims used. Two
were killed in the first test, an experiment to determine the
amount of gas needed to kill a person (Exhibit 5).

"Weight of general testimony shows that the gas chamber was
developed successfully to get the desired results. Witness after
witness mentions seeing living persons herded into the crematorium
and never being seen again. When the chamber was not used it was
because of the shortage of the materials to make the gas, the
same reason for not using the crematorium continually, and 
certainly
no change of heart on the part of the SS in charge. No witness
can testify as an eye witness to an execution by gas except Dr.
Blaha, because the crematorium and gas chamber was made up of
condemned prisoners who lived in the crematorium yard and once
in there, never left the area alive. Men picked for such duty
knew that they were to be killed as persons too dangerous to the
SS as possible future witnesses".

(Col. Chavez testified at trial on November 15, 1945, and made
no mention of any gas chamber. There is no mention of any gas
chamber in the testimony of Col. Lawrence Ball, another 
government expert witness. There is no mention of any gas chamber
in the prosecution opening statement, summation, or judgement.
No mention in the defence summations. No mention in the testimony,
except for a few sentences in the testimony of Dr. Blaha. Not
one of the forty defendants was asked a single question concerning
any gas chamber. Dr. Blaha testified twice. In his second 
appearance
as witness during prosecution "rebuttal", he also makes
no mention of any gas chamber. The Chavez report was rewritten
and introduced into evidence at Nuremberg as "proven fact",
even though it was known to be untrue. (Documents 159L, 2430PS).

The existence of a gas chamber at Dachau was not upheld in the
judgement at Nuremberg.

Page 56 of this same report, the "Chavez Report" (000120
of the microfilm pages, reel 1, M1174, National Archives):

"This new building also contained a gas chamber for execution...
the gas chamber was labelled "shower room". The first
test of a gas chamber was in 1944, when prisoners were used to
determine the amount of gas required to kill a person".

000132: "(Diagrams) drawing of piping section above chamber,
ventilator, galvanized piping, open into gas chamber. Insulated
piping. Gas chamber... gas chamber. Dachau prison camp.

000133: "Grill covered inlets. Hinged door. Water (?) drains.
Gas chamber. Dachau prison camp".

000134: "Vents. Ceiling. Gas Chamber. Dachau prison camp.
Shower heads flush with ceiling".

000135: (Diagram) Gas Chamber. Gas tight doors. Wooden shed 
believed
to contain pump or compressor (?). Piping system above chamber
ceiling, dimensions of chamber 24' x 18' x 6'. Chamber constructed
of smooth, paleyellow brick like refractory brick, with small
cement joints. Elevation. Gas chamber. Dachau prison camp".

PreTrial Witness Interrogations and Other Exhibits. 

000199: "In February 1945, 65 Jewish children... arrived
in the camp..; the children started crying and said: Please don't
put us into the gas chamber. When we replied there was no such
thing as a gas chamber, they said: oh yes, our parents told us
that we were going into another camp and that we would be put
into a gas chamber. We repeated there was no such thing, but they
answered: oh yes, oh yes, our father or mother, or uncle or cousin,
... were put into the gas chamber because they were Jews. The
children were kept in the camp for 2 or 3 weeks and were sent
to the extermination camp in Auschwitz. Even old and hardened
prisoners who had witnessed great inhuman treatment were deeply
moved by the sight of the children".

000204: "There was no gas chamber in the camp in working
order (!). A gas chamber was being built in the crematorium and
in January 1945, work was going on at a high speed. The chamber was
soon completed except for the gas boiler (?). A railway worker
who had to go in and out of the camp told me that a boiler had
arrived at the Ostbanhof, Munich, from Auschwitz. But this boiler,
together with many gas cylinders had been destroyed in an air
raid.

000212: "The years 1940/43 seem to have been the worst period
in Dachau and other similar camps. I was told by eyewitnesses
of the mass extermination of Jews who were sent in a gas chamber
500 at a time..." report on Prison Camp conditions dictated
by Captain P.M. Martinot, 23 May, 1945.

000248: "Another specific provision was for a crematorium
of four ovens and one gas chamber (called "desinfection chamber")
(!). I do not know whether this camp was ever built".

000250: "The most important building projects which were
planned and executed during my presence were as follows:... one
crematorium called "Barracke X" in the concentration
camp at Dachau, containing six individual gas chambers (!) and
2 combustion ovens".

000277: "The Polish priests were compelled to build the well-known
crematory and gas chambers (plural)... they were dragged by their
legs to the chambers of death..."

000379: "Source said he visited a building that was designated
as a shower room, but which in reality was a gas chamber".

000417: "The following Signal Corps photos are contained
in 1222614 and have been retained in the War Crimes Office in
Washington D.C. Gas Chambers (plural)".

000420: Photo of soldier in front of door reading "Gaszeit:
(illegible) Vorsicht! Gas! Lebensgefahr! Nicht `ffnen!... Dachau
Atrocity Camp: Gas Chambers (plural), conveniently located to
the crematory, are examined by a 7th Army soldier. These are part
of the horror chambers used by the Nazis before the 7th Army 
liberated
the camp.

000445: "The following Signal Corps photos are contained
in 12226 and have been retained in the War Crimes Office in 
Washington
D.C.... (Gas Chamber)" (singular).

000455: "Photo... Yank examines fake showerhead in the gas
chamber (singular) at the Dachau Concentration Camp. Located in
the crematory, unknowing prisoners were brought into the shower
room marked "showers". here they were stripped and after
the door was closed, they were gassed".

000485: "Here also, there were gas chambers (plural) camouflaged
as "showers" into which prisoners were herded under
the pretext of bathing and the huge crematory ovens".

000486: "Inside as well as outside (?) were gas chambers
(plural) with adjacent crematory ovens... almost 100 naked bodies
were stacked neatly in the barren room with cement floors. They
had come from a room on the left marked "Brausehad"
for "shower bath". It really was a gas chamber (singular)
a low ceilinged room about 30 feet square. After 15 or 20 were
inside, the doors were firmly sealed and the faucets turned on
and poison gas issued (!). Then the bodies were hauled into a
room separating the gas chamber from the crematorium. There were
four huge ovens with a huge flue leading to a smokeblackened 
stack".

000489: "The troops also discovered gas chambers, torture
chambers and ovens".

000496: "We saw the original gas chambers, four huge cells
(!) into which victims apparently were crowded and put to death.
Later on this method was improved by construction of a large chamber
with a jet in the ceiling, similar to showerbath sprinklers. The
prisoners undressed in a room, where a man sat, with flowers on
his desk, who gave them soap and a towel. Herded into the shower
room, the gas was turned on while the operator watched its effect
through a telescopic peephole".

000497: "Gas chamber executions".

000506: "Here one can see for oneself the lethal chamber
where the people the Nazis doomed were gassed. It has imitation
shower baths, installations with dummy sprinklers set in a pipeless
ceiling (!), and gratings looking like water drains in the floor
through which gas was sent" (So did it come through the floor
or through the ceiling?).

000508: "Shower rooms' (plural again) where gas was poured
(!) into chambers.

000509: "Jarolin (deputy camp commander at Dachau, defendant
in Trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss)... said he thought they had
gone to the gas chamber".

000513: "Gas chamber deaths at Belsen.

It was admitted by the prosecution that many inmates were mentally
ill, had lost their minds, or were wandering around in a mental
daze, yet their statements were accepted as "fact",
no matter how contradictory. It was also admitted that Dachau
had 6 hospitals and that 15,000 people died of disease in the
last few months, and that emaciation is a symptom of dysentery.
Defendants were convicted of "aiding and abetting in a common
design", even if no accusations were made against them by
inmates (case of Gretsch and Schoepp).




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                                   Richard Widmann
                                         C.O.D.O.H.
                       http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
*******************************************************************



From Widmann@gnn.com Sat Jun 29 15:46:21 PDT 1996
Article: 46788 of alt.revisionism
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From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:53:26
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References: <4pq44f$2o8@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4qi4o6$5eb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4qk9hn$cbn@news-e2c.gnn.com> 
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In article  Daniel Keren wrote:
>The "revisionist argument" was summed up by one of the
>"revisionists" who was honest enough:
>
>

Mr. Keren, your hatred has blinded you.  Your stereotyping and 
group-association is what I would have hoped that you stood most 
strongly against.  To condemn all revisionists because Milton Kleim 
is a Neo-Nazi is ludicrous.  It is this type of group-think and 
bigotry that allowed Nazism to occur in the first place.  You need 
to step back and make sure that you are not becoming that which you 
most despise.  Why not ask Mr. Garaudy if he too is a Nazi?

This argument is the old and tired one which has no real viability 
on alt.revisionism.  This is not part of a discussion of 
revisionism.  It is old fashioned name-calling.  Can you discuss 
revisionism and ideas without using the word Nazi?  I wonder.




 
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                                   Richard Widmann
                                         C.O.D.O.H.
                       http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
*******************************************************************



From Widmann@gnn.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:23 PDT 1996
Article: 46900 of alt.revisionism
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From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Tales of the Red Army
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:54:44
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ANOTHER TALE OF THE RED ARMY- 

The Germans are not human beings.  Henceforth the word German means 
to us the most terrible curse.  From now on the word German will 
trigger your rifle.  We shall not speak any  moe.  We shall not get 
excited.  We shall kill.  If you have not killed at least one 
German a day, you have wasted that day... If you cannot kill your 
German with a bullet, kil him with your bayonet.  If there is calm 
on your part of the front, if you are waiting for the fighting, 
kill a German before combat.  If you leave a German alive, the 
German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman.  If you kill 
one German, kill another - there is nothing more amusing for us 
than a heap of German corpses.  Do not count days; do not count 
miles.  Count only the number of Germans you have killed.  Kill the 
German - this is your old mother's prayer.  Kill ther German - this 
is what your children beseech you to do.  Kill the German - this is 
the cry of your Russian earth.  Do not waver. Do not let up. Kill.


(Text is found in Ilya Ehrenburg's book Vojna (The war) (Moscow, 
1942-43)


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                                   Richard Widmann
                                         C.O.D.O.H.
                       http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
*******************************************************************



From Widmann@gnn.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:24 PDT 1996
Article: 46938 of alt.revisionism
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From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 21:14:00
Organization: GNN
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In article <4qkl9v$lte@Networking.Stanford.EDU> Rich Graves wrote:
>I'm sure the fact that diesel exhaust cannot kill people will come 
as a
>great comfort to the families and friends of a Redwood City 
teenager who
>was reported to have committed suicide by sitting in a running car 
in a
>closed garage.

Mr. Graves - you really must slow down a bit.  Surely you did not 
read my post or I can not see why you would make the comment that 
you have made.  First, I have reproduced a line from the article 
that I posted that stated CLEARLY:

" Although carbon monoxide levels in Diesel exhaust CAN KILL
under heavy engine loads (Buchanan is mistaken in this regard), 
such conditions are quite difficult to achieve. See the article 
Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth Within A Myth." 

(Note: I have added the emphasis this time.)


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                                   Richard Widmann
                                         C.O.D.O.H.
                       http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
*******************************************************************



From Widmann@gnn.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:24 PDT 1996
Article: 46953 of alt.revisionism
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From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SOVIET PLANS TO INVADE GERMANY
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 21:06:55
Organization: GNN
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In article <4qkkqr$lrm@Networking.Stanford.EDU> Rich Graves wrote:
>>According to Carell, "The secret documents of the Soviet High 
>>Command" reveal that "the long-accepted view of  ...a 
peace-loving 
>>Soviet Union, organized only for defense, was attacked without 
>>cause by Germany, can no longer be supported."
>
>Gee, I wonder what those ellipses represent?

The passage in its entirety:
"the long-accepted view of the German-Soviet war, that on June 22, 
1941, a peace-loving Soviet Union, organized only for defense, was 
attacked without cause by Germany, can no longer be supported."

>
>"Peace-loving Soviet Union"?

These are the words of Mr. Paul Carell - His volume is available 
>from  Schiffer Military History.  Available in any good bookstore.  
Carell is one of the leading Military authors of our time.

What have you been smoking? They invaded
>Poland along with Nazi Germany, and were later stabbed in the back 
>by their former ally.

It is exactly that point, "stabbed in the back" which has been 
refuted.  Please reread my post, or better yet check out Carell's 
volume.  Carell shows that Germany attacked WITH cause.
>
>How easy it must be to debunk a myth that never existed.

You may find "the myth that never existed" in many historical 
volumes.  The widest read and most popular being, William Shirer's 
old classic, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."  


*******************************************************************
                                   Richard Widmann
                                         C.O.D.O.H.
                       http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
*******************************************************************



From Widmann@gnn.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47012 of alt.revisionism
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From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:10:39
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In article <4qntjc$nk@atlas.uniserve.com> Hilary Ostrov wrote:
>Perhaps the one who needs to step back is not Dr. Keren, but 
yourself.
>After all, he made _no_ accusations, did _not_ engage in 
stereotyping
>_nor_ in "group association".  
>
First let me say, that I was not aware that Mr. Keren, had achieved 
his Phd.  Congratulations!  Ms. Ostrov, a reread of my comments in 
regard to Dr. Keren's will show (I believe) that Keren has "summed 
up the revisionist argument" by posting the words of one Milton 
Kleim.  Revisionists do NOT hold the same views.  Surely you have 
come to this conclusion by now.  Revisionism is a loose term which 
connects numerous people who hold very strong, albeit individual 
views of what when on during the second world war (and other 
historical events.)

To categorize all revisionists because of the words and thoughts of 
Milton Kleim is absurd.  It is the equivalent of saying that all  
authors of the  "traditional holocaust" story believe the same 
thing, are of the same political persuasion etc.  Surely you do not 
believe this.  If you were to discover the politics of various 
revisionists, you would find them to be as varied as with any other 
group of people.  That certain neo-nazis hold some "revisionist" 
views is our misfortune.

Revisionists actually hold many varied views even on those things 
which you might believe they would all agree. 
Dr. Faurisson for example has had very strong arguments with David 
Irving, Fritz Berg, and David Cole (and probably others.)  In David 
Irving's latest volume, "Goebbels" he refutes Ingrid Weckert's 
theories regarding Krystallnacht.  At various times, Cole has been 
very critical of Leuchter.  I could go on and on.

Revisionism is a label.  It has as much and as little value as just 
about any other label.  Classical music is a label as well.  Listen 
closely and you will find many different ideas. 


*******************************************************************
                                   Richard Widmann
                                         C.O.D.O.H.
                       http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
*******************************************************************

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