The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/vicksell.ross/1994/vicksell.0794



Article 13235 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org>    <2uqfsj$atm@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun30.130822.10712@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 21:52:47 GMT
Lines: 40

kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>In article <2uqfsj$atm@mary.iia.org> bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg) writes:

>>Hart pertinently remarks--the more military-minded.   ". . . the Germans," 
>>he writes,  "having studied war more closely than most people, had come 
>>to see the ultimate drawbacks of destroying cities and industry, and the 
>>way that this damages the post-war situation . . ."  quoted by Fuller from 
>>--The Revolution in Warfare, by Capt. B.H. Liddell Hart (1946), p.70.

>Perhaps you are now ready to explain, in view of the above, the Nazi
>destruction of Warsaw, well after Polish troops had been defeated?

The game isn't over until the last man is out.  See second citation below.
I assume there were SOME Polish troops involved in the defense of Warsaw,
who didn't think they were defeated. 

With the exception on two specific episodes, the air attacks on Warsaw and
Begrade, Goering fought a more chivalrous war than his enemies, as
befitted the last command of the Richtofen Squadron.  He employed the
tactical airforce with moderation during the 1939 Polish campaign;
although the contemporary British and French propaganda claimed
differently, the captured secret dispatches of them French air attachee in
Warsaw, later published by the Nazis, documented this unexpected restrain.
On Hitler's orders, in the first days of the war Goering issued orders
that sharply limited the operations of his crews - forbidding them to use
poison gas, to attack civilian targets, or to sink Rec Cross ships, and
flatly embargoing London as a bombing target. 

         from "Goering" by David Irving, (1990 Avon pb edition) p. 272

By that tine, Goering dictated to Beppo Schmid the ultimatum ordering 
Warsaw to surrender, and when this was refused he ordered the saturation 
bombing that brought the war to an end.

         - op. cit.  p. 273


                Ross Vicksell



Article 13240 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Vicksell dances, avoids the question. Nothing new.
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Jun25.222801.13197@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>    <2urvkr$sq5@access2.digex.net> <1994Jun30.041805.9129@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 21:59:21 GMT
Lines: 16

kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>In article <2urvkr$sq5@access2.digex.net> mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:

>>    Answer Ken's point, Ross.  Stop evading the issue.  Do you in fact 
>>believe that it is a worse crime to forcibly relocate people than to 
>>murder them?

>In defense of Mr. Vicksell, he has already answered that question.
>His answer was "Yes!"

Not so.  I'm merely implying that more Germans were murdered AFTER than
Jews DURING the war.  This may come as a shock to you, but I don't buy
your six million figure; one million would be closer to the mark. 

            Ross Vicksell


Article 13248 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 1 Jul 1994 21:52:47 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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References: <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org> 
	<2uqfsj$atm@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun30.130822.10712@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 02:24:09 GMT
Lines: 93


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>With the exception on two specific episodes, the air attacks on Warsaw and
>Begrade, Goering fought a more chivalrous war than his enemies, as
>befitted the last command of the Richtofen Squadron.  He employed the
>tactical airforce with moderation during the 1939 Polish campaign;
>although the contemporary British and French propaganda claimed
>differently, the captured secret dispatches of them French air attachee in
>Warsaw, later published by the Nazis, documented this unexpected restrain.
>On Hitler's orders, in the first days of the war Goering issued orders
>that sharply limited the operations of his crews - forbidding them to use
>poison gas, to attack civilian targets, or to sink Rec Cross ships, and
>flatly embargoing London as a bombing target. 
>
>         from "Goering" by David Irving, (1990 Avon pb edition) p. 272



1939

"On the side of one of the railway carriages taking German soldiers
eastward, someone had written in white paint: `We're off to Poland to
thrash the Jews.'" [with photograph], pp 4

"Whole villages were burned to the ground. At Truskolasy, on September
3, fifty-five Polish peasants were rounded up and shot, a child of two
among them. At Wieruszow, twenty Jews were ordered to assemble in the
market place, among them Israel Lewi, a man of sixty-four. When his
daughter, Liebe Lewi, ran up to her father, a German told her to open
her mouth for `impudence'. He then fired a bullet into it. Liebe Lewi
fell down dead. Twenty Jews were then executed." pp 4

"On the afternoon of September 3, German bombers attacked the
undefended town of Sulejow...Within moments, the center of the town
was ablaze. As thousands hurried for safety towards the nearby woods,
German planes, flying low, opened fire with their machine guns." pp 4

"At Bydgoszcz, on 4 September, more than a thousand Poles were
murdered, including several dozen boy scouts aged between twelve and
sixteen. They had been lined up against a wall in the market place --
and shot. Entering Piotrkow on September 5, the Germans set fire to
dozens of Jewish homes, then shot dead those Jews who managed to run
from the burning buildings." pp 5

"On September 6, in the fields outside the Polish village of Mrocza,
the Germans shot nineteen Polish officers who had already
surrendered...Other Polish prisoners-of-war were locked into a
railwayman's hut which was then set on fire. They were burned to
death." pp 6

"On September 9 Colonel Eduard Wagner discussed the future of Poland
with Hitler's Army Chief of Staff, General Halder. `It is the Fuhrer's
and Goering's intention', Wagner wrote in his diary, `to destroy and
exterminate the Polish nation. More than that cannot even be hinted at
in writing'" pp 6

"`We are now issuing fierce orders which I have drafted today myself,'
Colonel Wagner wrote in his diary on September 11. `Nothing like the
death sentence! There's no other way in the occupied territories!'" pp 8

"`I have information', Canaris told Keitel, 'that mass executions are
being planned in Poland, and that members of the Polish nobility and
the Roman Catholic bishops and priests have been singled out for
extermination.'
  Keitel urged Canaris to take the matter no further. `If I were you',
he said, `I would not get mixed up in this business. This ``thing''
has been decided upon by the Fuhrer himself.'" pp 8

"...Eicke instructed the Division's commander to send two of his
battalions to Bydgoszcz to conduct a further `action' against Polish
intellectuals and municipal leaders. As a result of this instruction,
eight hundred Poles were shot on September 23 and September 24..." pp 12

"The first day of the renewed killings of Poles in Budgoszcz was also
the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Day of Atonement. To show
their contempt for Jews and Poles alike, the German occupation
authorities in Piotrkow ordered several thousand Polish
prisoners-of-war, among them many Polish Jews, into the synagogue,
and, forbidding them access to lavatories, forced then [sic] to
relieve themselves in the synagogue itself. They were then given
prayer shawls, the curtains from the Holy Ark, and the exquisitely
embroidered ornamental covers of the Scrolls of the Law, and ordered
to clean up the excrement with these sacred objects." pp 13

	"The Second World War", Martin Gilbert, Henry Holt and
	Company, Inc., 1989

[I don't think we need to go into October 1939 to make this point.]
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13249 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Vicksell dances, avoids the question. Nothing new.
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 1 Jul 1994 21:59:21 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1994Jun25.222801.13197@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
	<2urvkr$sq5@access2.digex.net>
	<1994Jun30.041805.9129@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 02:29:47 GMT
Lines: 27


>Not so.  I'm merely implying that more Germans were murdered AFTER than
>Jews DURING the war.  This may come as a shock to you, but I don't buy
>your six million figure; one million would be closer to the mark. 
>
>            Ross Vicksell

This is rich. Bacques' discredited "expose'" on the one side, the
holocaust never happened on the other.

Well, at least you admit to one million Jews murdered. That's some
progress I suppose.

By the way, in Gilbert's book on the Second World War I've been
quoting of late he does refer to millions of Germans being forcibly
relocated after the war. I had earlier said I had never heard this
before, but now I will tell you that I have read it in what I consider
a reasonably reliable source. He doesn't really go into any further
details, just a sentence or two and only the word "millions". But
close enough to establish the core of the matter.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13263 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Is it just me....
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: 
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 05:09:06 GMT
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flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:


>or are there any others who find the idioms of Frierich Berg and
>Hermann to be _very_ alike?
>Must be that Na... German heritage...

It's just you.

    Ross Vicksell


Article 13264 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Night of the Long Knives
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: 
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 05:13:28 GMT
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v140pxgt@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel B Case) writes:

>	Did it occur to anyone that yesterday was the sixtieth anniversary of
>the Night Of the Long Knives, when Hitler eliminated Roehm and his followers
>from the NSDAP?

>	Given that Hermann was so gung ho about remembering the Beer Hall 
>Putsch anniversary last fall, I think it's only fair that we remember 
>the day Hitler got rid of all the people like the revisionists.

I thought the reason Roehm got rubbed out was because he was too 
left-wing, and the army and the industrialists didn't like that.

                Ross Vicksell


Article 13268 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Berg avoids explaining his lie...
Date: 1 Jul 1994 15:07:30 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Message-ID: <2v1bfi$q6n@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun26.225848.19490@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2un0ji$nnb@mary.iia.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Berg still ignores the fact that a diesel engine can be easily adjusted
to release an amount of CO comparable to that of a gasoline engine.

This fact is reported in the Holtz-Elliot paper which was cited
here many times. Perhaps Berg has trouble reading simple English.

The difference between a huge engine, like that of the T-34 the SS
used in Treblinka, and a tiny (6 BHP) engine like the one used
in the Pattle et. al. experiments, is that a huge engine will
obviously kill much faster. 


-Danny Keren.




Article 13270 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was Re: Bacque)
Date: 1 Jul 1994 15:28:56 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  <2upccd$fcd@access2.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Can anyone verify Vicksell's references? He doesn't even give
the name of the second book.

-Danny Keren.



Article 13276 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: back to basics
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Jun29.100533.1@mac.cc.macalstr.edu> <1994Jun30.090207.77@msus1.msus.edu> 
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 06:01:40 GMT
Lines: 32

mastrd@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.edu (Russell Mast) writes:

>In article <1994Jun30.090207.77@msus1.msus.edu>,
>hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (MILTON JOHN KLEIM, JR.) wrote:


>> And, we must keep in mind the motive for concocting
>> such a Myth: billions of dollars from Western Nations for Israel and an 
>> incredible amount of coercive psychological power for Zionists against 
>> their opponents.

>But how many billions would it take to fake the Holocaust?  To safeguard
>that NO ONE of your thousands upon thousands of co-conspirators leaks the
>information?   

>Surely, the cost of faking a holocaust would outweigh the gains.  

>In order to pull this off, you'd need a prohibitive amount of money, at
>least a million or so cohorts, and a very strong central authority. 
>Additionally, everyone involved would have to be virtually totally amoral,
>concerned only with profit.  This sounds perhaps like a Nazi
>characterization of Jews, which probably isn't surprising.

Seems to me I've heard that song before. The "Holocaust" was established
as official dogma at Nuremberg.  Since then it's been as unhealthy to
question the truth of the "Holocaust" as it was to doubt the existence of
devil a few centuries ago.  Everybody who's stepped out of line since the
war has been persecuted, and their attempts to be heard have been
routinely suppressed or distorted by the media.  As for the "very strong
central authority", it's called The Establishment. 

                    Ross Vicksell


Article 13297 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Subject: Re: Night of the Long Knives
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin)
Reply-To: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
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Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 18:18:05 GMT
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In a previous article, codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) says:

>v140pxgt@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel B Case) writes:
>
>>	Did it occur to anyone that yesterday was the sixtieth anniversary of
>>the Night Of the Long Knives, when Hitler eliminated Roehm and his followers
>>from the NSDAP?
>
>>	Given that Hermann was so gung ho about remembering the Beer Hall 
>>Putsch anniversary last fall, I think it's only fair that we remember 
>>the day Hitler got rid of all the people like the revisionists.
>
>I thought the reason Roehm got rubbed out was because he was too 
>left-wing, and the army and the industrialists didn't like that.

Wrong Ross.  Roehm got rubbed out because he stood between Hitler and
absolute control of Germany.  To obtain that, Hitler had to curry the
favour of the Army.  In addition, Roehm was pressing for a "second"
revolution, which Hitler wanted no part of, having attained power.
-- 
Gordon McFee ai292

I'll write no line before its time!


Article 13302 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is it just me....
Date: 02 Jul 1994 20:23:06 GMT
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In-reply-to: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sat, 2 Jul 1994 05:09:06 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

   >or are there any others who find the idioms of Frierich Berg and
   >Hermann to be _very_ alike?
   >Must be that Na... German heritage...

   It's just you.

Nice to know, my newsreader had some 8-9 articles by you two
alternating, and it sure did come across as a very homogenous mass of
text. Is it all those genes that you share?

--
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Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 13307 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: back to basics
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sat, 2 Jul 1994 06:01:40 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1994Jun29.100533.1@mac.cc.macalstr.edu> <1994Jun30.090207.77@msus1.msus.edu>
	 
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 20:56:08 GMT
Lines: 54


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Seems to me I've heard that song before. The "Holocaust" was established
>as official dogma at Nuremberg.  Since then it's been as unhealthy to
>question the truth of the "Holocaust" as it was to doubt the existence of
>devil a few centuries ago.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that nearly every person
who marches up to this forum to "dispute" the Holocaust quickly tips
his hand and makes it clear that they're a bona-fide Nazi (or admirer)
and riddled with a hate that is hard to miss.

That doesn't particularly negate their right to say these things, but
it certainly explains why their credibility is about zero. That the
facts don't back them up in the slightest probably doesn't help
either.

It also continues to be a source of amusement how these Holocaust
Revisionists post megabytes of materials here much of it claiming that
there is an evil conspiracy to suppress them.

Obviously this evil conspiracy they allude to doesn't work very well.

>Everybody who's stepped out of line since the
>war has been persecuted, and their attempts to be heard have been
>routinely suppressed or distorted by the media.

Yeah yeah yeah, like an angry schoolboy who disputes the "F" he got...

It's also possible that people have looked at your views with an open
mind and found them to be unutterably stupid bullshit.

Does that ever occur to you? That perhaps you and your several buddies
are just plain deluded?

Of course not.

It has to be some vast conspiracy...every kook, from UFO abductees to
holocaust deniers to "the moon landing never occurred" rests their
arguments on the claim that there's this vast and highly coordinated
conspiracy to suppress them.

Talk about hearing a song before.

Perhaps you should read through the alt.conspiracy list for a while
Ross, I think you'll get that punch in the belly feeling that you've
been a true moron about this stuff that you desparately need.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13310 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: The Holocaust as "official dogma?"
References: <1994Jun30.090207.77@msus1.msus.edu>  
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul02.224247.28416@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 94 22:42:47 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Seems to me I've heard that song before. The "Holocaust" was established
>as official dogma at Nuremberg.  Since then it's been as unhealthy to
>question the truth of the "Holocaust" as it was to doubt the existence of
>devil a few centuries ago.  Everybody who's stepped out of line since the
>war has been persecuted, and their attempts to be heard have been
>routinely suppressed or distorted by the media.  As for the "very strong
>central authority", it's called The Establishment. 

How, then, Ross, do you explain the warnings to Allied governments
about the pending extermination of the Jews, and the reports of camp
escapees, long, long before the end of the war?

Did those clever Jews begin their conspiracy in 1939? 1940? 1941?
1942? 1943? 1944? When, Mr. Vicksell?

Three instances of these warnings are available from my archives, in
the sub-archive holocaust/germany/warnings. Here is one of them:

Archive/File: holocaust/germany/warnings schulte.001
Last-Modified: 1994/07/01

   "A third informant was Eduard Schulte, who was an industrialist in
   Breslau, where he headed a large mining concern,
   Bergwerksgesellschaft Georg von Giesche's Erben.  His connections
   in Germany included a German colonel and a Giesche manager who was
   close to Gauleiter Karl Hanke of Lower Silesia.  Like Sommer,
   Schulte had previously been in Switzerland on business and had
   given information to various people about German policies and
   plans.  This time, his visit was prompted by something he had heard
   about the Jews: they were going to be annihilated.  On July 30,
   1942, he talked to a business associate, Isidor Koppelmann, who
   contacted the press officer of the Swiss Jewish community, Benjamin
   Sagalowitz.  Schulte wanted his message to be transmitted to
   America and Britain, and Sagalowitz turned to Riegner in Geneva.
   Riegner consulted Professor Guggenheim.  The choices are few.  One
   could not simply fly to London or New York and deliver the message
   personally.  Communication through the mail or telegrams risked
   Swiss censorship.  An approach to Allied representatives in
   Switzerland, however, offered the possibility of speed and
   security, as well as help in gathering additional information.  On
   the morning of August 8, Riegner set out to meet with the British
   and American consuls in Geneva.<34> Riegner, who had not met
   Schulte and had not been given his name, drafted a notice
   containing the substance of Schulte's statement.  It was addressed
   to Sydney Silverman, a member of the World Jewish Congree in London
   and Member of Parliament, and to Wise in New York.  Its text is as
   follows:

      RECEIVED ALARMING REPORT STATING THAT IN FUEHRERS HEADQUARTERS A
      PLAN HAS BEEN DISCUSSED AND BEING UNDER CONSIDERATION ACCORDING
      TO WHICH TOTAL OF JEWS IN COUNTRIES OCCUPIED CONTROLLED BY
      GERMANY NUMBERING THREEANDHALF TO FOUR MILLIONS SHOULD AFTER
      DEPORTATION AND CONCENTRATION IN EAST BE AT ONE BLOW
      EXTERMINATED IN ORDER TO RESOLVE ONCE AND FOR ALL JEWISH
      QUESTION IN EUROPE STOP ACTION IS REPORTED TO BE PLANNED FOR
      AUTUMN WAYS OF EXECUTION STILL DISCUSSED STOP IT HAS BEEN SPOKEN
      OF PRUSSIC ACID STOP IN TRANSMITTING INFORMATION WITH ALL
      NECESSARY RESERVATION AS EXACTITUDE CANNOT BE CONTROLLED BY US
      BEG TO STATE THAT INFORMER IS REPORTED HAVE CLOSE CONNECTIONS
      WITH HIGHEST BGERMAN AUTHORITIES AND HIS REPORTS TO BE GENERALLY
      RELIABLE

					WORLD JEWISH CONGRESS
					GERHARD RIEGNER<35>

   The words 'all necessary reservation' were suggested by
   Guggenheim.<36>

   By the end of July, gassings were already under way in Kulmhof,
   Auschwitz, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, and Maydanek (Lublin).  Only
   Treblinka had just begun its operations.  The subject was no longer
   under discussion and the Jews were not oging to be killed 'at one
   blow.' The message, however, contained not only the overwhelming
   truth of annihilation, but some telling details.  Thus there _was_
   a stockpiling of deportees from Germany and Slovakia in a number of
   eastern ghettos, pending organized shootings or gassings, and
   prussic acide, the active ingredient in Zyklon, _was_ the gas
   already introduced in Auschwitz, the death camp in Upper Silesia,
   next door to Lower Silesia.

   When Vice Consul Howard Elting met with Riegner in the American
   consulate, he found the World Jewish Congress representative in
   great agitation.  Riegner brought up the prussic acid and Elting
   interjected that the report seemed fantastic to him.  Riegner
   replied that it had struck him the same way, but that he had to
   consider the recent mass deportations from Paris, Holland, Berlin,
   Vienna, and Prague.  The report was so serious and alrming that he
   felt it his duty to request that the Allied governments and Rabbi
   Wise be informed and the governments 'try by every means to obtain
   confirmaiton or denial.'<37>

   For Riegner the pieces were already falling into place.  They were
   not so convincing to the Allied governments.  The Department of
   State decided that, pending corroboration of the information, the
   message should not be delivered to Rabbi Wise.<38> In the British
   Foreign office, the telegram was considered for seven days before
   it was passed on to Sydney Silverman.<39> Wise received the message
   from Silverman on August 24.<40>" (Hilberg, 239-240)

<34> A portion of this story was first uncovered by Arthur Morse,
   'While Six Million Died' (New York, 1967), pp.  3-7.  Schulte's
   identity was discovered years after his death by Monty Penkower
   and, independently, by Richard Breitman and Alan Kraut.  See
   Penkower, 'The Jews Were Expendable,' pp.  62, 317-18; Breitman and
   Kraut, 'Who Was the _Mysterious Messenger_?', 'Commentary,' October
   1983, pp.  44-47; Laqueur and Breitman, 'Breaking the Silence' (New
   York, 1988); and Breitman in Breitman and Kraut, 'American Refugee
   Policy and European Jewry 1933-1945 (Bloomington, Ind., 1987), pp.
   148-57, 279-81.  See also the correspondence by Penkower, Breitman,
   and others in 'Commentary,' January 1984, pp.  4-10.  The books
   co-authored by Breitman are more detailed about Schulte's
   background and the transmission of the message.  There are some
   small discrepancies among the various accounts.

<35> Memorandum by U.S.  Vice-Consul Howard Elting in Geneva, August
   8, 1942, with attacvhed draft of a telegram prepared by Riegner
   'giving in his own words a telegraphic summary of his statement to
   me'; National Archives of the United States, Record Group 84,
   American Legation Bern, Confidential File 1942, Box 7, 840.1J.
   Riegner's first name was misspelled.

<36> Laqueur and Breitman, 'Breaking the Silence,' pp. 146-47.
   Penkower, 'The Jews Were Expendable,' pp. 63-64. Laqueur and
   Breitman state that Guggenheim also advised the deletion of a
   reference to a crematorium: 'Breaking the Silence,' p. 146

<37> Memoradum by Elting, August 8, 1942, National Archives Record
   Group 84, American Legation Bern, Confidential File 1942, Box 7,
   810.1J.

<38> J. Klehr Huddle (Counselor of the U.S. Legation in Bern) to
   Elting, August 21, 1942, ibid.

<39> Bernard Wasserstein, 'Britain and the Jews of Europe,' (London
   and Oxford, 1979), p. 168. Gilbert, 'Auschwitz and the Allies,' pp.
   59-60.

<40> Telegram from Silverman to Wise, August 24, 1942. American Jewish
   Archives, World Jewish Congress Collection/Alphabetical Files -
   Switzerland, 184 A, Box 1.

Schulte's warning came in _1942_, Mr. Vicksell, long before
Nuremberg.

                           Work Cited

Hilberg, Raul. Perpetrators, Victims, Bystanders: The Jewish
   Catastrophe, 1933-1945. New York: Harper-Collins Publishers, 1992.
-- 
--------------------------The Old Frog's Almanac-------------------------
"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)   


Article 13322 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is it just me....
Date: 2 Jul 1994 23:20:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <2v5aqd$1fo@access1.digex.net>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
>>or are there any others who find the idioms of Frierich Berg and
>>Hermann to be _very_ alike?

>It's just you.

    Wrong as usual.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 13323 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Is it just me....
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:   
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 04:55:18 GMT
Lines: 25

flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

>In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>   >or are there any others who find the idioms of Frierich Berg and
>   >Hermann to be _very_ alike?
>   >Must be that Na... German heritage...

>   It's just you.

>Nice to know, my newsreader had some 8-9 articles by you two
>alternating, and it sure did come across as a very homogenous mass of
>text. Is it all those genes that you share?

>--
>Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
>Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
>DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
>DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.

Now its me = Fritz Berg = Hermann

The disease seems to be spreading.

     Ross Vicksell


Article 13325 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org> <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org>    <2uqfsj$atm@mary.iia.or 
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 06:03:54 GMT
Lines: 33

Gordon McFee (ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:


: In a previous article, bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg) says:

: >Dear McVay,
: >
: >What in the world are you talking about?  The destruction of Warsaw well 
: >after the Poles were defeated???
: >
: >FPBERG 
: >

: Yes, Mr. Berg, it was.  The Polish War was militarily decided by
: mid-September.  The destruction of Warsaw from the air took place between
: September 20 and 25 1939.  There was no military justification for it at
: all, as Generalfeldmarschall Halder among others, admitted.


Please read my previous quote from David Irving's "Goering."  

The point is that the commander of the Warsaw garrison had been given more
than one ultimatum to surrender.  Regrettably, he had ignored them all. 

The Poles had earlier demonstrated there obstinance by refusing Hitler's 
offers to negotiate the Danzig issue, thus precipating the war.

The Poles seem to have had delusions of grandeur.  Somebody remarked that
when they talked about taking up the sword against Germany, they were
talking about real swords! (They did have the best cavalry in Europe.)

         Ross Vicksell



Article 13329 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!news.Vanderbilt.Edu!NewsWatcher!user
From: mastrd@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.edu (Russell Mast)
Subject: Re: back to basics
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: news@news.vanderbilt.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.59.132.217
Organization: Vanderbilt Vision Research Center
References: <1994Jun29.100533.1@mac.cc.macalstr.edu> <1994Jun30.090207.77@msus1.msus.edu>  
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 23:16:24 GMT
Lines: 43

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> mastrd@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.edu (Russell Mast) writes:
> 
> >In order to pull this off, you'd need a prohibitive amount of money, at
> >least a million or so cohorts, and a very strong central authority. 
> >Additionally, everyone involved would have to be virtually totally amoral,
> >concerned only with profit.  This sounds perhaps like a Nazi
> >characterization of Jews, which probably isn't surprising.
> 
> Seems to me I've heard that song before. The "Holocaust" was established
> as official dogma at Nuremberg.  Since then it's been as unhealthy to
> question the truth of the "Holocaust" as it was to doubt the existence of
> devil a few centuries ago.  Everybody who's stepped out of line since the
> war has been persecuted, and their attempts to be heard have been
> routinely suppressed or distorted by the media.

Just like you're being persecuted right now?  Get a life you goofball! 
You're not being persecuted.  You're being subjected to minor verbal abuse.
 Big deal.  

People who questioned the existence of the devil a few centuries ago were
subject to death and horrible torture.  Are you implying that holocaust
revisionists are subject to death and horrible torture?  

The worst thing that I've ever seen happen to a revisionist is the
occasional detractor calls said revisionist a wacko.  Wacko.

>  As for the "very strong central authority", it's called The Establishment. 

Oh, of course.  I knew they had to have a name.  What's their phone number?
 Or do they even use phones anymore?  Why should they, they can read minds.

Get help.  "The Establishment".  Of course.  And ALL of them want to
torture you to death for denying the holocaust, I suppose.  If this
"Establishment" is so powerful, how did they let Hitler come to power?

Goofball.

-steamboatcaptainman
"How can a man be so confused and still manage to make a living?"  -Norman
Rockwell.


Article 13335 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is it just me....
Date: 03 Jul 1994 11:02:09 GMT
Organization: Update, Uppsala Student Computer Club, Uppsala, Sweden
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References:  
	 
NNTP-Posting-Host: krille.update.uu.se
In-reply-to: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 3 Jul 1994 04:55:18 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

   flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

   >In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

   >   >or are there any others who find the idioms of Frierich Berg and
   >   >Hermann to be _very_ alike?
   >   >Must be that Na... German heritage...

   >   It's just you.

   >Nice to know, my newsreader had some 8-9 articles by you two
   >alternating, and it sure did come across as a very homogenous mass of
   >text. Is it all those genes that you share?

   Now its me = Fritz Berg = Hermann

   The disease seems to be spreading.

Sigh, paranoia must be rampant in your part of the country. I stated
that I find your style of writing very similar. You denied it, and I
clarified my first statement. I still think you sound like you sat in
on the same classes.

--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 13343 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: back to basics
Date: 3 Jul 1994 09:29:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <2v6egc$ll0@access1.digex.net>
References: <1994Jun29.100533.1@mac.cc.macalstr.edu> <1994Jun30.090207.77@msus1.msus.edu>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Everybody who's stepped out of line since the
>war has been persecuted,

    What terrible things have been done to you, Ross?  Who has persecuted 
you?  I disagree with what you say, but if your civil rights have been 
violated due to your exercise of your First Amendment rights, I want to 
know about it.  I am very much opposed to censorship, and I *do* disagree 
with the German law which makes Holocaust denial a crime, along with such 
things as campus "hate speech" codes.

>and their attempts to be heard have been
>routinely suppressed or distorted by the media.

    Let's see, you tell us Berg is on radio shows all the time?  Wow, how
suppressive can you get!

    And as far as distortion goes - well, Ross, remember Greg Raven's
response to Daniel Keren's evidence, and the reply to his response which
showed how he distorted his supposed sources?  I have found this to be
hardly an isolated incident in "revisionist scholarship." 

    Pot.  Kettle.  Black.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 13344 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The consistency of the denier mind (part 2 of ???)
Date: 3 Jul 1994 09:59:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <2v6g77$mre@access1.digex.net>
References: <1994Jun25.222801.13197@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2urvkr$sq5@access2.digex.net> <1994Jun30.041805.9129@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:
>>In article <2urvkr$sq5@access2.digex.net>
>>mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>>    Answer Ken's point, Ross.  Stop evading the issue.  Do you in fact 
>>>believe that it is a worse crime to forcibly relocate people than to 
>>>murder them?
>
>>In defense of Mr. Vicksell, he has already answered that question.
>>His answer was "Yes!"
>
>Not so.  I'm merely implying

    Stop implying and start offering serious evidence.

>that more Germans were murdered AFTER than Jews DURING the war.

    Wait a minute.  I thought your complaint was about the forcible
relocation of millions of Germans, not murder.  For years the deniers have
argued that the Nazi memos saying the Jews should be relocated to the east
should in no way be read as implying murder.  Is it now your contention,
Ross, that "relocation" IS a code word for "murder?"  Help me out here,
Ross, I'm SOOOOO confused.... 

>This may come as a shock to you, but I don't buy
>your six million figure; one million would be closer to the mark. 

    Well, the stock market has riz!  Didn't Zundel say it was only
300,000-450,000?  Are the revisionists now backing away from their earlier
story as they realize that their absurd claims about how few Jews died can
no longer be supported?

    [This last paragraph is a parody of Holocaust denier debating
technique presented for entertainment and educational purposes only.  Any
resemblance between this discussion and a serious logical and factual
argument is an illusion.  However, since Ross *does* seem to believe in
the validity of this type of argument, he is challenged to provide a
serious answer to it.  Should he fail to do so, I can then (in the
traditions of denier debating technique, as demonstrated here by Fritz
Berg) accuse him of running for cover and failing to meet my challenge.]

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 13351 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (part 2 of ???)
Date: 3 Jul 1994 12:49:37 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <2v6q71$oim@mary.iia.org>
References: <1994Jun25.222801.13197@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2urvkr$sq5@access2.digex.net> <1994Jun30.041805.9129@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <2v6g77$mre@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear Mr. Stein,

It is generally agreed within the revisionist circles of which I am a 
part that the total number of Jewish deaths arising from the war is about 
a million.  That number includes many deaths arising from reprisals and 
anti-Jewish pogroms that had no direct connection to any German military 
presence.  Many deaths were from Polish partisans who seemed to have 
hated the Germans and Jews equally.

The total number of deaths from all causes in German concentration camps 
according to my revisionist circles is somewhere between 350,000 and 400,000.
Of that number, no more than one-fourth were Jews.

Arthur Butz was I believe the first revisionist to give those approximate 
numbers.

FPBERG

P.S. (To Mr. Stein only)  Two E-mail letters of yours have been completely 
lost by my access provider by, according to a Bulletin from them, an 
"Elfchief."  Please send those letters again so that I may respond.


Article 13372 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 3 Jul 1994 06:03:54 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org> <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org>
	 <2uqfsj$atm@mary.iia.or
	 
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 19:00:17 GMT
Lines: 26


>The point is that the commander of the Warsaw garrison had been given more
>than one ultimatum to surrender.  Regrettably, he had ignored them all. 
>
>The Poles had earlier demonstrated there obstinance by refusing Hitler's 
>offers to negotiate the Danzig issue, thus precipating the war.
>
>The Poles seem to have had delusions of grandeur.  Somebody remarked that
>when they talked about taking up the sword against Germany, they were
>talking about real swords! (They did have the best cavalry in Europe.)
>
>         Ross Vicksell

I'll remind you of this reasoning next time you complain about the
Allies' behavior towards the end of the war.

I doubt Polish obstinance can hold a candle to Nazi obstinance with
Hitler defrocking his top officers almost daily, rearranging armies
and strategies, etc shouting over the Russian tanks rumbling into
Berlin.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13381 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org> <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org> 
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 20:50:23 GMT
Lines: 33

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: >The point is that the commander of the Warsaw garrison had been given more
: >than one ultimatum to surrender.  Regrettably, he had ignored them all. 
: >
: >The Poles had earlier demonstrated there obstinance by refusing Hitler's 
: >offers to negotiate the Danzig issue, thus precipating the war.
: >
: >The Poles seem to have had delusions of grandeur.  Somebody remarked that
: >when they talked about taking up the sword against Germany, they were
: >talking about real swords! (They did have the best cavalry in Europe.)
: >
: >         Ross Vicksell

: I'll remind you of this reasoning next time you complain about the
: Allies' behavior towards the end of the war.

: I doubt Polish obstinance can hold a candle to Nazi obstinance with
: Hitler defrocking his top officers almost daily, rearranging armies
: and strategies, etc shouting over the Russian tanks rumbling into
: Berlin.

: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

The allies were insisting on UNCONDITIONAL surrender, with "war crimes 
trials" of the top Axis leaders after the war.  The Germans were offering 
the Poles honorable terms.

            Ross Vicksell


Article 13382 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Nazis
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: 
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 20:53:33 GMT
Lines: 13

Gordon McFee (ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:


: I wonder if Herr Berg still has all the verses of the Horst Wessel Lied
: memorised?
: -- 
: Gordon McFee ai292

: I'll write no line before its time!

It is a nice tune.

          Ross Vicksell


Article 13384 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mastrd@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.edu (Russell Mast)
Subject: Re: Is it just me....
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: news@news.vanderbilt.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.59.132.217
Organization: Vanderbilt Vision Research Center
References:   
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 20:42:39 GMT
Lines: 23

In article ,
flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) wrote:

> In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> 
>    Now its me = Fritz Berg = Hermann
> 
>    The disease seems to be spreading like Judaism.
>
> Sigh, paranoia must be rampant in your part of the country. I stated
> that I find your style of writing very similar. You denied it, and I
> clarified my first statement. I still think you sound like you sat in
> on the same classes.

Jonas, I went back and re-read all their posts.  Sure enough, I have good
reason to believe that they were FORGED by you and your "Establishment"
cronies.  In fact, their original, government suppressed posts were very
different, showing the three of them to be critical thinkers, each with
their own perspective on "truth".

-steamboatcaptainman
"How can a man be so confused and still manage to make a living?"  -Norman
Rockwell.


Article 13387 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:13387 alt.conspiracy:41421
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <2uvoti$r8o@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 22:06:25 GMT
Lines: 73

Anonymous User (nobody@soda.berkeley.edu) wrote:

: >Interesting point, but the question I have is after listening to
: >Bill Cooper reading from the Executive Intelligence Report on the

: Executive Intelligence Review is the publication of the Lyndon
: LaRouche loonies.  LaRouche, now serving time for fraud and tax
: evasion, is the grandmaster of loonie conspiracy buffs -- he's the
: guy, you'll recall, who claims the Queen of England is a drug dealer,
: among wilder rants.

Lyndon Larouche was release from a Federal prison in Minnesota last 
January.  Apparently our Anonymous Poster hasn't been reading his/her New 
Federalist or EIR lately.

: The Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith keeps a watch on
: anti-Semitic organizations; when the LaRouchies came to their
: attention, this stuff started.

Many of the Larouchers, including some his more prominent spokepeople, are 
Jewish.  Nor are the Larouchers particularly anti-Israel.  Now you tell 
me what makes them an "anti-Semitic organization?"
 
: >ADL ( 1992 - EIR ) I wonder why no responce has ever been made to
: >the docuemented association of the ADL with organised crime and

: Because, of course, the ADL has not had a "docuemented" association
: with "organised" crime -- or a documented assocation with organized
: crime, for that matter.

But this is what "The Ugly Truth About The A.D.L." is all about.


: >the creation of the ADL by the Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction
: >circa the beginning of the century and it's continued activity in
: >support of Justice Hugo Black ( 33rd Degree Freemason & life
: >member of the KKK ) from which he recieved a life-passport in 1925.
: >

: Yeah.  Standard LaRouchie fare.  Next, usually, we get how various
: conspiracies are preventing fusion power from being a reality, right?

: >The description of the ADL as the "public relations" arm of Jewish
: >organized crime was, according to the Report, decried by Rabbi's

: Well, which "Rabbi's" decried it?

: >as soon as it was established and accordingly it has file Amicus
: >briefs with the Court on every Religious case of major import and
: >including those which hurt the Judaic Faith and any organised
: >religion generally. 

: Well, this is pretty standard fare for the LaRouchies, even before
: Lyndon went away.


: plo kibo
: larry wall glock
: --------
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Article 13392 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 3 Jul 1994 20:50:23 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org> <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org>
	 
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 1994 23:26:18 GMT
Lines: 21


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>The allies were insisting on UNCONDITIONAL surrender, with "war crimes 
>trials" of the top Axis leaders after the war.

Not as unreasonable as you seem to think. Except perhaps to the top
Axis (former) leaders.

>The Germans were offering 
>the Poles honorable terms.

What are the approximate dates of these offers? I can't find any
reference to them tho that's not to say I don't believe you, there's a
lot of material to sift through but approximate dates would help.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13396 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org> <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org> 
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 00:43:19 GMT
Lines: 26

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: >The allies were insisting on UNCONDITIONAL surrender, with "war crimes 
: >trials" of the top Axis leaders after the war.

: Not as unreasonable as you seem to think. Except perhaps to the top
: Axis (former) leaders.

: >The Germans were offering 
: >the Poles honorable terms.

: What are the approximate dates of these offers? I can't find any
: reference to them tho that's not to say I don't believe you, there's a
: lot of material to sift through but approximate dates would help.


: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

I'll dig it up and post it soon.  

             Ross Vicksell


Article 13419 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:13419 alt.conspiracy:41471
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From: lness@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (lester john ness)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
References: 
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 11:42:46 GMT
Lines: 5

	Larouchism seems like a new religion to me. I could summarize 
their doctrine thus: There is one God and LaRouche is his prophet. 
Plato's works are the Old Testament, LaRouche's, the New Testament.

Lester Ness	lness@ucs.indiana.edu


Article 41433 of alt.conspiracy:
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Hiroshima
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: 
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 00:58:23 GMT
Lines: 10

Jon Thomas  writes:

>I've heard from a friend that as a "rememberance" for the 50th aniversary
>of Hiroshima, a radical group in Japan plans to construct and detonate
>an atomic bomb in the U.S.  Has anyone heard anything along these lines?

Wonder if they're open to suggestions as to which city to trash.  I have 
some likely candidates in mind.  Hope it's going to be a "clean" bomb.

               Ross Vicksell


Article 13454 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Date: 4 Jul 1994 22:19:15 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <2va1t3$k8a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: wolf.cs.brown.edu

I guess by "honorable terms" Vicksell means the Nazi mass murder
of Poles, in Auschwitz and elsewhere, and the deportation of
numerous Poles to Germany as slaves? And the orders to hang any
Pole who has sexual intercourse with a German woman?

No wonder Vicksell sees these as "honorable"...


-Danny Keren.



Article 13457 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (part 2 of ???)
Date: 4 Jul 1994 22:36:16 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 151
Message-ID: <2va2t0$ks7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <1994Jun25.222801.13197@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <2v6g77$mre@access1.digex.net> <2v6q71$oim@mary.iia.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wolf.cs.brown.edu

This file contains a short survey on the dimensions of the Holocaust,
published by the Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe (Institute for Contemporary 
History) in Munich, Germany, at 1992. 

The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe is considered an authority on this
issue in Germany, and has been used as a source of information on the
Holocaust in various trials of Nazi war criminals there.

Feel free to quote from this letter, under the following conditions:

1) Verbatim quotes only.  
2) The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe has to be cited as the source.

-Daniel Keren (dk@lems.brown.edu).

**********************************************************************
Concerns: The killing of people through gas in the extermination and
concentrations camps under the Nazi power

The systematic murdering of humans through gas during the Nazi rule
was introduced for the first time from January 1940 on in the area of
the "Euthanasia", the extermination of the "lives not worthy to live"
of the handicapped, mental patients and the terminally ill, and from
fall 1941 on was continued to a much larger extent by the pogroms of
the operation groups of the security police and the SD in the seized
eastern areas with the help of mobile gas vans.

Beginning December of 1941 one proceeded in the camp Kulmhof (Polish
Chelmno) to use stationary gas vans for the killing of Jews, and from
the beginning of 1942 in different camps fixed gas chambers were
built, or already existing buildings were restructured for this
purpose.

One needs to differentiate by the furnishing of such gas chambers and
the gassing actions carried out within them between the mass gassings
of Jews in the extermination camps build for that purpose and the
gassings of smaller scale in individual, already existing
concentration camps (whereby patients, seized forced laborers, war
prisoners, and political prisoners among others were also victims)

The following extermination camps existed:


Kulmhof i.e. Chelmno (in the then Wartheland), where between December
1941 and fall 1942 and again from May until August 1944 gassings by
means of carbon monoxide from motor exhaust gas took place. Altogether
more than 150,000 Jews as well as 5000 gypsies have hereby been
killed.


Belzec (in the district Lublin of the then general governments): from
march to December 1942 in the beginning in three, later in six large
gas chambers by means of carbon monoxide from motor exhaust gas
altogether about 600,000 Jews were killed here.


Sobibor (district Lublin, general government) received in April 1942
three, later in September 1942 six gas chambers and until October 1943
it was "in operation". During this period at least 200,000 Jews have
been murdered through carbon monoxide gas.


Treblinka (district Warschau, general government) from the end of July
1942 on had three gas chambers and received at the start of September
1942 furthermore ten larger gas chambers. Up to the dissolution of the
camp in November 1943 altogether 700,000 Jews were killed here by
carbon monoxide.


Majdanek (district Lublin, general government): The concentration camp
existing since September 1941 turned into an extermination camp when
between April 1942 and November 1943 mass shootings took place to
which 24,000 Jews fell victim. In October 1942 also two, later three
gas chambers were built.  In the beginning the killings in these were
done by means of carbon monoxide, soon however one was using Zyklon B
(a highly poisonous insecticide made from cyan hydrogen). Up until the
dissolution of the camp in March 1944 about 50,000 Jews have been
gassed.


Auschwitz-Birkenau (in the formerly polish, in 1939 adjoined to the
"Reich" upper eastern Silesian area, south eastern of Kattowitz): The
extermination camp in Birkenau, established in the second half of
1941, was joined to the concentration camp Auschwitz, existing since
May 1940. From January 1942 on in five gas chambers and from the end
of June 1943 in four additional large gassing-rooms gassings with
Zyklon B have been undertaken. Up until November 1944 more than one
million Jews and at least 4000 gypsies have been murdered by gas.


In the following concentration camps gas chambers were established and
have gone into operation:


Mauthausen (upper Austria): From fall 1941 on one gas chamber existed
which was operated with Zyklon B. In addition, gassings with carbon
monoxide took place through gas vans which were driven between
Mauthausen and it's side-camp Gusen. Altogether more than 4000 have
been killed here through gas.

Neuengamme (southeastern of Hamburg): From fall of 1942 on gassings
with Zyklon B were undertaken here in a "Bunker" prepared for that,
about 450 victims.
 
Sachsenhausen (Province Brandenburg, north of Berlin) received mid
March 1943 a gas chamber which was operated with Zyklon B. Several
thousand people fell victim to the gassings, a more specific number
cannot be determined.

Natzweiler (by Struthof, Elsass): From August 1943 to August 1944 a
gas chamber existed here in which between 120 and 200 people were
killed through Zyklon B in order to be able to dissect their skeletons
for the Anatomica Institute of University of Strassburg.  Back then
this institute was managed by a chief company commander of SS Prof.
Dr. August Hirt.

Stutthof (east of Danzig) had from June 1944 on one gas chamber in
which more than 1000 were killed by Zyklon B.

Ravensbruck (Bradenburg, north of Berlin): Here still in January 1945
a gas chamber was established; the number of the people killed in it
was at least 2300.

Dachau (Upper Bavaria, northeast of Munich): During the establishment
of a new house of cremation in 1942 also a gas chamber was established
in it in which in connection with the medical experiments of the chief
company commander of SS Dr. Rascher also a few experimental gassings
were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed. (On that see
Gunther Kimmel: The Concentration Camp Dachau. A study of the Nazi
crimes of violence in Bavaria in the NS-time II, edited by Martin
Broszat and Elke Froehlich, Munich, R. Oldenburg Press, 1979, P. 391.)
Larger gassing operations have not taken place in Dachau.



The victims of the operation groups of the security service and the SD
behind the German frontier in the Russia-campaign were to the by far
largest part Jews. Their number is estimated to be at least 900,000.

The difference between the total of the victims of the gassings cited
in the above mentioned composition and the number of victims of the
operation groups and the total of roughly 6 million victims of the
Nazi persecution of the Jews results from the fact that a very high
percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect
extermination actions such as the method "destruction through work",
bad treatment, under nourishment, epidemics, exhaustion during forced
transportations etc.

About 120,000 people were killed through the Nazi
"Euthanasia"-actions.



Article 13467 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Shein shines
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2v84a2$362@search01.news.aol.com>  <2v94pu$ebe@access1.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 03:04:26 GMT
Lines: 28

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:

>In article ,
>Barry Shein  wrote:
>>So why isn't this authoritative tome registered with the Library of
>>Congress?

>    A word of caution to anyone using the Library of Congress online
>catalogue: there are not one but two databases, LOCI and PREM.  Be sure to
>read the descriptions carefully, and search *both* databases if you do not
>know for sure the age of the book.  The PREM database is older and is
>*not* complete.  For an authoritative answer to whether the book is in
>their collection I shall have to go down in person to check it out.  (I
>find it particularly annoying that *neither* database tells you if the
>book has gone missing, so that filling out a call slip is a waste of
>time.)

>    To use the Library of Congress online catalogue, telnet to
>locis.loc.gov. 

>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

When I do a "telnet locis.loc.gov" I get a "Remote host unreachable."

                  Ross Vicksell


Article 13469 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Shein shines
References:  <2v94pu$ebe@access1.digex.net> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul05.085603.9633@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 94 08:56:03 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>>    To use the Library of Congress online catalogue, telnet to
>>locis.loc.gov. 

>When I do a "telnet locis.loc.gov" I get a "Remote host unreachable."

Clearly, then, the Library of Congress does not exist! Another hoax
exposed, right here on the net!

-- 
--------------------------The Old Frog's Almanac-------------------------
"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)   


Article 13471 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Shein shines
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Tue, 5 Jul 1994 03:04:26 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <2v84a2$362@search01.news.aol.com> 
	<2v94pu$ebe@access1.digex.net> 
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 03:48:41 GMT
Lines: 15


>When I do a "telnet locis.loc.gov" I get a "Remote host unreachable."
>
>                  Ross Vicksell

Same here but I've certainly used it. Try during a weekday or at least
a weekday evening. I suspect something went awry over the holiday
weekend and no one was around to restart things.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13472 of alt.revisionism:
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From: vainber@ecf.toronto.edu (VAINBERG  VLADISLAV)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@ecf.toronto.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
References: <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org> <2uqfsj$atm@mary.iia.or  
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 03:52:44 GMT
Lines: 34

In article ,
>: Yes, Mr. Berg, it was.  The Polish War was militarily decided by
>: mid-September.  The destruction of Warsaw from the air took place between
>: September 20 and 25 1939.  There was no military justification for it at
>: all, as Generalfeldmarschall Halder among others, admitted.
>
>
>Please read my previous quote from David Irving's "Goering."  
>
>The point is that the commander of the Warsaw garrison had been given more
>than one ultimatum to surrender.  Regrettably, he had ignored them all. 
>
>The Poles had earlier demonstrated there obstinance by refusing Hitler's 
>offers to negotiate the Danzig issue, thus precipating the war.
>
>The Poles seem to have had delusions of grandeur.  Somebody remarked that
>when they talked about taking up the sword against Germany, they were
>talking about real swords! (They did have the best cavalry in Europe.)
>
>         Ross Vicksell
>

Delusions of grandeur?! Perhaps you would call patriotism a 'delusion' 
? Poles fought for THEIR country, remember? Or maybe you would like to
put the entire Amreican patriotic campaign out to laugh at?
Think about it.

And, the destruction of Warsaw (the main part) was done not in 1939 at all.
Summer 1944 would be a more correct date. You see, dear Rossy, the Germans
behaved like savages during the war. As savages, they destroyed everything
when it was time to leave (russian tanks were too damn close). And they
bombed Warsaw. Do you also know the story of Krakov(sp?) ? 
If you do, then shut up. If you don't, go do your homework.



Article 13483 of alt.revisionism:
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Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ai292
From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin)
Reply-To: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org> <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org>   Gordon McFee (ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
>
>: In a previous article, bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg) says:
>
>: >Dear McVay,
>: >
>: >What in the world are you talking about?  The destruction of Warsaw well 
>: >after the Poles were defeated???
>: >
>: >FPBERG 
>: >
>
>: Yes, Mr. Berg, it was.  The Polish War was militarily decided by
>: mid-September.  The destruction of Warsaw from the air took place between
>: September 20 and 25 1939.  There was no military justification for it at
>: all, as Generalfeldmarschall Halder among others, admitted.
>
>
>Please read my previous quote from David Irving's "Goering."  

I have read the quote.  It is inaccurate and irrelevant.

>
>The point is that the commander of the Warsaw garrison had been given more
>than one ultimatum to surrender.  Regrettably, he had ignored them all. 

Do you ever stop, Ross?  Mumble your racist insanities if you will, but at
least admit that what happened, happened.  Should the Poles be blamed for
defending their country, which had been invaded without provocation?  Get
real.
 >
>The Poles had earlier demonstrated there obstinance by refusing Hitler's 
>offers to negotiate the Danzig issue, thus precipating the war.

Hitler never made a serious offer to negotiate anything with the Poles. 
He himself admitted that he had fabricated the whole thing, especially the
last minute "offer" to the British Ambassador, which he deliberately made
too late for its terms to be considered, let alone complied with.  He
admitted several times to his associates that he wanted war with Poland
and fabricated the opportunity for it.

>
>The Poles seem to have had delusions of grandeur.  Somebody remarked that
>when they talked about taking up the sword against Germany, they were
>talking about real swords! (They did have the best cavalry in Europe.)

What a crock.  The Polish cavalry was on horseback.  Instructive that the
might German Wehrmacht, in tanks, was able to defeat them.

-- 
Gordon McFee ai292

I'll write no line before its time!


Article 13488 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shein shines
Date: 5 Jul 1994 13:46:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
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References: <2v84a2$362@search01.news.aol.com>  <2v94pu$ebe@access1.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>When I do a "telnet locis.loc.gov" I get a "Remote host unreachable."

   That's because the system is not always up.  Here's the schedule:


                   SEARCHING HOURS AND SEARCHING BASICS
............................................................................
LOCIS is available for on-site researchers during all hours LC is open.
For researchers using LOCIS over the Internet, the following hours apply:
            (all times US eastern; closed national holidays)
Mon-Fri: 6:30am-9:30pm      Sat: 8:00am-5:00pm      Sun: 1:00pm-5:00pm
............................................................................



-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 13522 of alt.revisionism:
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From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Date: 6 Jul 1994 15:39:34 +0200
Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw
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: The Poles had earlier demonstrated there obstinance by refusing Hitler's 
: offers to negotiate the Danzig issue, thus precipating the war.

Yes , I admit that my ancestors opposed Nazis in 1939 and I'm not ashamed
of it. Do you mean that Nazis were right with their ideas of Holocaust,
exterminating Gipsies, pooling out golden teeth at Auschwitz? 
Would you please read the documents of your beloved III Reich from 1939?
Polish cooperation with Nazis wouldn't stop Nazis.

: The Poles seem to have had delusions of grandeur.  Somebody remarked that
: when they talked about taking up the sword against Germany, they were
: talking about real swords! (They did have the best cavalry in Europe.)
The Polish cavalry in 1939 didn't have any swords but sabres. And rifles
and machine-guns (too few of them) exactly like the German and the Soviet 
cavalry.  

'Somebody' brings our discussion to the academic level :-( .

                Jerzy Pankiewicz



Article 13573 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was re: Bacque)
Date: 7 Jul 1994 22:48:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 164
Message-ID: <2viepg$3ck@access1.digex.net>
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org> <2ukh31$152@access2.digex.net> <2ukpfm$38o@mary.iia.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

    Friedrich Berg has been mailed a copy of this post to make *sure* he 
sees it.

In article <2ukpfm$38o@mary.iia.org>,
bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg) writes:

>There are lots and lots of Jewish eyewitness accounts about their 
>experiences in German concentration camps, but there are hardly any 
>so-called eyewitness accounts of mass murder in gas chambers.  There are 
>some but, I repeat, very few.  There are only about a dozen that I 
>have ever seen and of those, most are so obviously phoney that they are not 
>even used by the Holocaust pseudo-scholars such as Hilberg and Martin 
>Gilbert.  The one "eyewitness" that they all hang their hats on again and 
>again is SS Lieutenant Kurt Gerstein and his story is the Diesel story.  
>That story is rubbish for many reasons--especially for the inherent 
>absurdity of any Diesel for mass murder methodology.

     Nothing at all absurd about it.  It might not have been the best way to 
kill people, but it worked.  You argue that anybody who did it that way 
would have been a bumbling idiot.  Well, I agree - the killers *were* a 
bunch of bumbling idiots.  Certainly plenty of those in the world.  What?  
You have proof that bumbling idiots don't exist?

>If you think you have a better piece of socalled eyewitness testimony,
>please let us all know about it.

     I find it rather strange that you can make the above statement when you 
knew very well about the witness below - you mentioned him in your paper, 
though you didn't reproduce what *he* had to say.  And looking at what he 
had to say, I'm not surprised you glossed over his statement, preferring to 
concentrate on Gerstein.

     From the deposition of Wilhelm Pfannenstiel before the Darmstadt 
Court, June 6, 1950: 

      I was trained in hygiene and assigned to work in the this field 
     during the war.  I was occasionally called upon in connection with 
     disinfection work, for which, as I already knew at the time, liquid 
     prussic acid was used.  I myself, however, never worked with this 
     during the war.  This liquid form of prussic acid was also called 
     Zyklon B.  During the summer of 1942, as a specialist in hygiene, I 
     was ordered to proceed to Lublin to assist in an advisory capacity 
     in urban sanitation work (supply of drinking water, sewage 
     disposal).  I accordingly went to Berlin to obtain a car because by 
     that time the train journey was taking too long.  I was unable to 
     get the use of a car, but I was told that Dr. Gerstein was 
     traveling to Lublin and I was instructed to get in touche with him, 
     which I did.  Dr. Gerstein told me that he would have to travel by 
     way of Prague and I agreed to go along.  An empty truck made the 
     journey behind our car.  As we drove, Dr. Gerstein explained to me 
     that he had to go to pick up some prussic acid from a plat at Kolin 
     near Prague.  He didn't tell me what it was to be used for and I 
     did not ask him.  Knowing that Dr. Gerstein was in charge of 
     disinfection work, I thought it quite natural that the acid should 
     be intended for that purpose.  But I soon learned at the factory - 
     it was a small plant - that the chemical in question was gaseous 
     prussic acid.  Until then, I had been unaware of the existence of 
     prussic acid in that form.  But its disadvantages were pointed out 
     to me at the same time, namely that, under considerable pressure, 
     it decomposed.  Dr. Gerstein and I then went on to Lublin.  During 
     the journey, one of the cylinders started to let in air and had to 
     be buried.  At Lublin, I carried out my assigned tasks.  In this 
     connection, I learned that there was a camp at Belzec where Jews 
     were killed.  I wanted to see it.  The camp was under the direction 
     of a man named Wirth and it had been equipped by S.S. Police Chief 
     Globocnik, who was also a Brigade Commander (S.S.) and a Police 
     General.  I made the acquaintance of the latter through Dr. 
     Gerstein, who had often been to Lublin and Belzec.  I, too, had 
     business with him because he was my superior...I asked if I might 
     view the camp.  Globocnik, who was very proud of his institution, 
     granted permission and took Gerstein and myself into the camp.  
     Next morning, a shipment of Jews - men, women, and some children - 
     arrived...They were ordered to strip completely and to hand over 
     their possessions.  They were informed that they were to be 
     incorporated into a working process and must be deloused to prevent 
     epidemics.  They would also have to inhale something.

     After the women's hair had been cut off, the whole shipment of 
     people was taken to a building containing six rooms.  On that 
     occasion, to my knowledge, only four [of these] were used.  After 
     these people had been shut up in the rooms, the exhaust gas from an 
     engine was piped in.  Gerstein stated that it took about eighteen 
     minutes before quiet was restored inside.  While the Jews were 
     being taken in, the rooms were lit up with electric light and 
     everything passed off peacefully.  But when the lights were turned 
     off, loud cries burst out inside, which then gradually died away.  
     As soon as everything was quiet again, the doors in the outside 
     walls were opened, the corpses were brought out, and, after being 
     searched for gold teeth, they were stacked in a trench.  Here, too, 
     the work was done by Jews.  No doctor was present.  I noticed 
     nothing special about the corpses, except that some of them showed 
     a bluish puffiness about the face.  But this is not surprising 
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     since they had died of asphyxiation.  If my memory serves me
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
     correctly, I returned to Lublin that same day with Dr. Gerstein.

     When Globocnik authorized me to visit the camp, he made it clear to 
     me that I must not talk about it to anyone, on pain of death.  When 
     I got back to Berlin, I informed Professor Grawitz, the senior 
     physician of the S.S., of what I had seen and expressed to him the 
     horror that I felt.  He assured me that he would see to it that 
     this business was stopped.  I have no idea what happened then.

     The fact of my having asked to visit the camp may no doubt be 
     attributed to a certain curiosity on my part.  I wanted to know in 
     particular if this process of exterminating human beings was 
     accompanied by any acts of cruelty.  I found it especially cruel 
     that death did not set in until eighteen minutes had passed.  I 
     told Globocnik so.  He replied that this would go better with 
     prussic acid, but, so far as I know, this acid was never used 
     because Gerstein pointed out to him the dangers inherent in the use 
     of gaseous prussic acid.  If my information is correct, the 
     cylinders of prussic acid were buried.

     I know that Dr. Gerstein gives an entirely different description of 
     this gassing scene.  That version is false.  It is full of 
     exaggerations.  What is characteristic in this respect is 
     Gerstein's assertion that, in his view, about 25,000,000 people had 
     been subjected to this treatment.  As he tole me himself on that 
     occasion, he had been to Belzec a number of times.  It is possible 
     taht he may have witnessed scenes similar to those he describes and 
     that, in his report of April 26, 1945, he was no longer 
     differentiating between the visits, but giving a summary picture of 
     them.  Thus, he mentions a certain S.S. officer Gu"nther who is 
     supposed to have traveled with us, but we traveled alone.  In other 
     respects, too, the Report is full of inaccuracies.  I maintain 
     especially that I did not say: "as they do in a synagogue."  Even 
     if I should have made such a remark, it was not in the sense 
     imputed to me by Gerstein, as if to suggest that I was poking fun 
     at the torments of the prisoners.  The situation was much too 
     dreadful for that.

     I have never been to Treblinka.  Dr. Gerstein's report is 
     inaccurate on this point as well.  I have a feeling that Dr. 
     Gerstein made charges against me because he knew that I was the 
     only living witness who can testify about him and his activity in 
     connection with the use of prussic acid.  I presume that he wanted 
     to eliminate me [as a witness].

quoted in Friedla"nder, Saul: "Counterfeit Nazi" (Knopf, New York, 
1969), pp. 116-120.

     Now, Mr. Berg, I notice that Dr. Pfannenstiel - who you admit never
recanted his testimony - had no trouble identifying the cause of death as
asphyxiation.  You glossed over that in your paper, going on and on and on
about how it was impossible for the people to have died of carbon monoxide
poisoning.  Well, it appears you were right - Pfannenstiel, who was there,
*agrees* that they DIDN'T die of acute carbon monoxide poisoning.  Oh, they
died, alright - just of a different cause.  (Whatever CO there was would
have helped the process along, but it wasn't the main cause of death.)

     It was pretty clever of you to refer to Pfannenstiel, and even say 
that he supported Gerstein.  You admitted just enough of the truth to lull 
most people into not chasing down Pfannenstiel's testimony.  But I found it.  
And it shows that your carbon monoxide argument was a huge red herring - 
and since you knew about Pfannenstiel, it's hard to imagine how you could 
not have known this.

     Naughty, naughty, Mr. Berg.  Shame on you.  Big boys don't do that.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 13607 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Date: 8 Jul 1994 14:05:01 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <2vjmed$lin@ankh.iia.org>
References: <2v0544$k7m@mary.iia.org> <2ui9oc$m6q@mary.iia.org>    <2uqfsj$atm@mary.iia.or   <2vec6m$lgj@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl>
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Dear Mr. Pankiewicz,

I suggest you examine the various statements of Marschall and General 
Edward Rydz-Smigly in the months prior to September 1939.  It seems 
clear enough that he not only welcomed a war with Germany but regarded it as 
an opportunity to greatly expand Poland's borders.  He stated that he 
believed that from the first day on, the war would be fought on German 
territory.  He was nuts, of course, as the first few days of fighting 
would soon prove, but he was typical of the mindset that infested much 
of Polish thinking before September.  Numerous Polish publications 
which were widely circulated in Poland expressed the view that the war 
would bring Poland the return of ancient Polish territory as far west 
as the Elbe and include such ancient Polish cities as Berlin.  
    
     Hitler tried to avoid the war with Poland--but the enormous 
numbers of murders of ethnic Germans in Poland and the flight of tens 
of thousands of German refugees from Poland resulting from the open 
anti-German terror campaign in Poland made that more and more 
difficult.  Hitler offered again and again to negotiate with Poland 
over "extra-territorial issues" but Poland deliberately evaded all 
possible negotiations.  After all, they had the "Guarantee" from 
Britain--so why bother talking to Hitler and anyway, the war will be good 
for Poland.  Read:--Origins of the Second World War--by A.J.P. Taylor.
Even after the public announcement of Hitler's Pact with Stalin, Poland 
still refused to negotiate--very stubborn and awfully stupid.

Late in the day, September 1, 1939, both Fritz Hesse in London and 
Ribbentrop phoned the British government to inform it that Germany would 
move out of Poland  ("immediately" according to Fritz Hesse) if England 
would mediate the German-Polish conflict provided that Germany received 
Danzig and a road through the Corridor.  In both communications, 
Germany offered to pay reparations to Poland for all the damage that 
had been inflicted.  The German military had been overwhelmingly 
successful in all it's operations and it appeared the war would last, at 
most, only a few more days.  All of this is spelled out in -- Adolf 
Hitler--by John Toland, on pages 573 and 574 of the English edition from 
1976.
  Danzig by the way had an overwhelmingly German population, more 
than 95%, and had voted for union with Germany on a number of occasions; 
that democratically expressed desire was continually frustrated by the 
victors of WW1.  Danzig was, in fact, a free city in name only.  
Nonetheless, it was a German city and it will be again.
    Sometime later, Joseph P. Kennedy, US Ambassador to Britain, and father
of John F Kennedy, told people that Chamberlain had told him that the
"Americans and the world Jews had forced him into the war."  See
Toland-p.574. 

Read also: --The Forced War--by David L. Hoggan, Institute for Historical 
Review, P.O Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659, 1989,  Hoggan by the way 
received his Ph. D. in Harvard for history.  Although he also taught 
there, he never received tenure.  Both Toland and Hoggan have given guest 
lectures at Institute for Historical Review conventions--so has David Irving.

The truth may set you free.

Friedrich Paul Berg



Article 13608 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Date: 8 Jul 1994 14:30:28 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <2vjnu4$lin@ankh.iia.org>
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Dear Readers,

The origins of WW2 are well worth reading about -- G, McFee should get 
started before he spills any more foam on the Internet.

The Polish policies toward Danzig and toward their ethnic German 
minority in the months prior to September 1939 were deliberately 
provocative.  The Polish government wanted a war with Germany.  Edward 
Rydz-Smigly made that clear enough.  German military might was 
regarded as nothing more than bluff.  But, to start the war, it was 
politically and tactically necessary to have Britain involved which 
meant Germany had to be provoked into launching the war.  It took a lot of 
Polish provocation--but, eventually the Poles had the war they wanted.

They thought their cavalry would take them not only to Berlin, but as far 
west as the Elbe.  They have since learned to be a bit more cautious.

The collapsing Polish army turned Warsaw into a fortress.  The idea that
the Germans should have allowed a Polish military enclave in Warsaw to
continue while Germany was at war, albeit a Sitzkrieg, with France and
Britain in the west is preposterous.  The Germans had no choice but to use
either heavy artillery on the city or airpower.  Airpower was more humane
than artillery since it could be much more accurate at hitting military
targets--and that's all the Germans wanted to do.  The Poles have no one
to blame for the rubble than themselves.  They could have negotiated
without any loss to themselves prior to September,--but, they chose war
via provocation instead. 

Hitler's offers to negotiate with the Poles prior to September 1939 were
reasonable, moderate and sincere.  After the war started, he even improved
his offer by offering to pay reparations to Poland--read: Adolf Hitler, by
John Toland, pages 573 and 574. 

FPBERG




Article 13612 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
Date: 9 Jul 1994 16:12:16 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <2vmi90$e8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <2vjnu4$lin@ankh.iia.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

What is still not clear to me is why the Nazis had to massacre huge
numbers of Poles, including a group of young children who were
executed in Auschwitz by phenol injections (the "children of Zamosc").


-Danny Keren.



Article 13627 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals: The Bombing of Warsaw
In-Reply-To: dzk@cs.brown.edu's message of 9 Jul 1994 16:12:16 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:   <2vjnu4$lin@ankh.iia.org>
	<2vmi90$e8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 21:35:31 GMT
Lines: 106


From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
>What is still not clear to me is why the Nazis had to massacre huge
>numbers of Poles, including a group of young children who were
>executed in Auschwitz by phenol injections (the "children of Zamosc").


Well, this is the point really, isn't it?

It probably comes as no great shock to anyone that there were many
terrible problems in Central Europe directly preceding the war.

It also comes as no surprise that Hitler focused on many of these
complaints. People are not entirely insane, at least not at first, he
obviously appealed to the German nation in addressing many injustices
around them. He raised this to an art of course, arguing that such
injustices were nearly unique to the Germans. The backdrop of the
first world war and the depression just getting into swing no doubt
contributed to people accepting much of what Hitler said at first.

But that is not the issue. The issue is what Hitler and his Nazis
ultimately did about these perceived injustices. What they did was to
create new injustices and travesties far and away more horrible than
any they claimed to fix. Ultimately many of these were visited on the
German people themselves. They did not profit from his leadership,
they lost terribly.

Certainly today great injustices occur, nearly daily. Yet we see few
suggesting the destruction of Europe (&c) as the solution to these
problems.

Hitler delineated many serious problems confronting the German people,
there is no doubt about that.

Even in Mein Kampf (something I am reading through right now) Hitler
often makes points that are easy to agree with. But the solutions he
then proposes generally take on the air of insanity.

For example, in one section he describes how (advanced) education
should be offered on the basis of some system of merit and talent.  He
excoriates a class-based system of higher education (which no doubt
existed at the time) where a well-born but dull child will get a
superior education and thus prosper in life while a talented child of
a laborer will not get such an opportunity and likely end up a
laborer. And that this should be repaired.

Not hard to disagree with, certainly very much in line with lofty
ideals we have in the USA, and have had for a long time.

But then Hitler proceeds to rave about how one hears about "negroes"
becoming lawyers and doctors and how wonderful this is, in the press
of his time. He declares this to be a Jewish plot to promote an idea
of equality which, in his estimation, is absurd.

Why does he think it absurd?

Because they are negroes, and, he goes on, how could these "half-apes"
(his words) possibly be anything but like "trained poodles" (his
words) and not really lawyers or doctors at all, only trained animals.

Thus, by his definition, only providing education to ethnic Germans is
worthwhile. For everyone else it is merely stealing (he makes this
point quite emphatically) from ethnic Germans. Only ethnic Germans can
possibly be allowed into any meritocracy he envisions as only they
have the ability to truly benefit from education.

Such was Hitler. I encourage anyone to read Mein Kampf to help
understand the architecture of Hitler's pathos.

But describing social and political problems of the time, as Mr Berg
tries to do, does not address the point.

All Berg does by echoing this is use the same trick every demagogue
(including Hitler) uses: ABC is bad, ABC is intolerable, the XYZ's
allow ABC to happen, I am different, follow me.

It doesn't take any great wisdom to see this in demagogues even
today.

Most charismatic political movements are built out of the same exact
stuff, only the specifics change. Outline the problems the audience
agrees with, tell the audience how terrible these things are, tell
them that all those in power must for some reason be tolerating or
even encouraging these things, then proceed to pose yourself as the
solution without really explaining how you plan to solve these
problems, merely identify yourself with being against the problems.

Look, for example, at the religious right in the US. They are very
good at making lists of social ills that trouble their audience, sex,
drugs and rock-and-roll or whatever. From there it is easy to claim
that everyone in power now must either tolerate or encourage these
things (they go on unabated, right?) And then the big leap, support
us, we are against such things. How will they solve these problems?
This always gets lost in such propaganda. We're against these terrible
problems, if you are against us then you must be in favor of these
problems, now shut up or admit you favor teen pregnancy and heroin
addiction or whatever.

Some things don't change, never have.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13646 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Robert Brock / "Pace Amendments"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2vnovm$gtr@lucy.infi.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 1994 04:21:13 GMT
Lines: 17

gweaver@infi.net (Gary Weaver) writes:

>I am interested if finding some information about Robert Brock, and the
>"Pace Amendments".
>--

>Gary Weaver
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
>                          email: gweaver@infi.net

For starters, why not write to Brock, c/o

                Liberty Lobby
                300 Independence Ave.  SE
                Washington DC 20003

               Ross Vicksell


Article 13679 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gweaver@infi.net (Gary Weaver)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Robert Brock / "Pace Amendments"
Date: 11 Jul 1994 01:18:47 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: gweaver@infi.net (Gary Weaver) writes:

: >I am interested if finding some information about Robert Brock, and the
: >"Pace Amendments".
: >--

: >Gary Weaver
: >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
: >                          email: gweaver@infi.net

: For starters, why not write to Brock, c/o

:                 Liberty Lobby
:                 300 Independence Ave.  SE
:                 Washington DC 20003

:                Ross Vicksell

Thanks for the info. I was just hoping that there was online info available.
--

Gary Weaver
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
                          email: gweaver@infi.net



Article 13685 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Robert Brock / "Pace Amendments"
References: <2vnovm$gtr@lucy.infi.net>  <2vq6ln$7kl@lucy.infi.net>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul11.041724.17739@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 94 04:17:24 GMT

In article <2vq6ln$7kl@lucy.infi.net> gweaver@infi.net (Gary Weaver) writes:

>Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
>: gweaver@infi.net (Gary Weaver) writes:

>: >I am interested if finding some information about Robert Brock, and the
>: >"Pace Amendments".

>: For starters, why not write to Brock, c/o
>
>:                 Liberty Lobby

>Thanks for the info. I was just hoping that there was online info available.

The Pace Amendment is mentioned in the IHR FAQ, in Part Two. You may
also find James Aho's "The Politics of Righteosness: Idaho Christian
Patriotism" of interest (Seattle: University of Washington Press,
1990, p. 261-263).

-- 
--------------------------The Old Frog's Almanac-------------------------
"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)   


Article 13706 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: SKEPTIC magazine confronts the Revisionists
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2vnnph$bfo@ankh.iia.org> 
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 05:55:08 GMT
Lines: 21

revpk@cellar.org (Brian "Rev P-K" Siano) writes:

>bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg) writes:

>> Dear Readers,
>> 
>> SKEPTIC magazine might be well worth reading.  I have heard through a
>> number of contacts, including David Cole who flew back on the same plane
>> with Shermer to LA after the Donohue Show on which they both appeared
>> together, that Shermer is joining the revisionists. He's probably one
>> already but not yet gutsy enough to stand up to browbeating from the likes of
>> Phil Donohue. But he can learn.  

>	Definitely untrue: I know Shermer, and he certainly isn't a
>Revisionist. I think "honesty" and "intelligence" have something to do with
>it.

Nothing to do with hanging on to his adjunct professorship at Occidental 
College?  Times are tough.

        Ross Vicksell


Article 13708 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!news.kei.com!eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SKEPTIC magazine confronts the Revisionists
Date: 11 Jul 1994 06:18:13 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <2vqo75$s96@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <2vnnph$bfo@ankh.iia.org>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:
# revpk@cellar.org (Brian "Rev P-K" Siano) writes:

##	Definitely untrue: I know Shermer, and he certainly isn't a
## Revisionist. I think "honesty" and "intelligence" have something to do with
## it.

# Nothing to do with hanging on to his adjunct professorship at Occidental 
# College?  Times are tough.

While I do not speak for Shermer (I did read his article though and it
had some nice points in it), Vicksell went over the line with this
idiotic and insulting remark.

What the hell does Vicksell think? That if someone doesn't fall for
the revolting Nazi propaganda that he spews, that means it is because
he/she are afraid of "losing their job"!? Is there any proof, or
shred of proof, in what he hints about Shermer?


-Danny Keren.





Article 13709 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SKEPTIC magazine confronts the Revisionists
Date: 11 Jul 1994 02:25:11 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <2vqok7$651@access3.digex.net>
References: <2vnnph$bfo@ankh.iia.org>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>revpk@cellar.org (Brian "Rev P-K" Siano) writes:
>>Definitely untrue: I know Shermer, and he certainly isn't a Revisionist.
>>I think "honesty" and "intelligence" have something to do with it.
>
>Nothing to do with hanging on to his adjunct professorship at Occidental 
>College?  Times are tough.

    And in the finest denier tradition, Ross, having absolutely no
evidence (but that's only required for the Holocaust, never for anything
he wishes to believe), in desperation descends into gutter smear tactics
based on wild speculation.  Congratulations, Ross.  I knew you had it in
you. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 13720 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!news.cs.indiana.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu!lippard
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SKEPTIC magazine confronts the Revisionists
Date: 11 Jul 1994 03:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11JUL199403424894@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>
References: <2vnnph$bfo@ankh.iia.org>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
:revpk@cellar.org (Brian "Rev P-K" Siano) writes:
: 
:>bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg) writes:
: 
:>> Dear Readers,
:>> 
:>> SKEPTIC magazine might be well worth reading.  I have heard through a
:>> number of contacts, including David Cole who flew back on the same plane
:>> with Shermer to LA after the Donohue Show on which they both appeared
:>> together, that Shermer is joining the revisionists. He's probably one
:>> already but not yet gutsy enough to stand up to browbeating from the likes of
:>> Phil Donohue. But he can learn.  
: 
:>	Definitely untrue: I know Shermer, and he certainly isn't a
:>Revisionist. I think "honesty" and "intelligence" have something to do with
:>it.
: 
:Nothing to do with hanging on to his adjunct professorship at Occidental 
:College?  Times are tough.

Are you claiming to know Shermer better than those of us who are
personally acquainted with him?  I suggest you read his article and
then see if you can maintain the delusion that he is "joining the
revisionists."

BTW, he's an assistant prof. at Occidental College.

Jim Lippard               _Skeptic_ magazine:
lippard@ccit.arizona.edu  ftp://ftp.rtd.com/pub/zines/skeptic/
Tucson, Arizona           http://www.rtd.com/~lippard/skeptics-society.html


Article 13736 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: SKEPTIC magazine confronts the Revisionists
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2vnnph$bfo@ankh.iia.org>   <2vqo75$s96@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 22:43:03 GMT
Lines: 31

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>Ross Vicksell  wrote:
># revpk@cellar.org (Brian "Rev P-K" Siano) writes:

>##	Definitely untrue: I know Shermer, and he certainly isn't a
>## Revisionist. I think "honesty" and "intelligence" have something to do with
>## it.

># Nothing to do with hanging on to his adjunct professorship at Occidental 
># College?  Times are tough.

>While I do not speak for Shermer (I did read his article though and it
>had some nice points in it), Vicksell went over the line with this
>idiotic and insulting remark.

>What the hell does Vicksell think? That if someone doesn't fall for
>the revolting Nazi propaganda that he spews, that means it is because
>he/she are afraid of "losing their job"!? Is there any proof, or
>shred of proof, in what he hints about Shermer?

I'm basing what I said about Shermer on a lengthy conversation I had with 
David Cole, who has spent a LOT of time with him.

It's of interest that Shermer first invited himself and then disinvited 
himself to speak at the upcoming IHR conference.

              Ross Vicksell





Article 13737 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: SKEPTIC magazine confronts the Revisionists
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2vnnph$bfo@ankh.iia.org>   <11JUL199403424894@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 22:46:33 GMT
Lines: 33

lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) writes:

>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>:revpk@cellar.org (Brian "Rev P-K" Siano) writes:
>: 
>:>bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg) writes:
>: 
>:>> Dear Readers,
>:>> 
>:>> SKEPTIC magazine might be well worth reading.  I have heard through a
>:>> number of contacts, including David Cole who flew back on the same plane
>:>> with Shermer to LA after the Donohue Show on which they both appeared
>:>> together, that Shermer is joining the revisionists. He's probably one
>:>> already but not yet gutsy enough to stand up to browbeating from the likes of
>:>> Phil Donohue. But he can learn.  
>: 
>:>	Definitely untrue: I know Shermer, and he certainly isn't a
>:>Revisionist. I think "honesty" and "intelligence" have something to do with
>:>it.
>: 
>:Nothing to do with hanging on to his adjunct professorship at Occidental 
>:College?  Times are tough.

>Are you claiming to know Shermer better than those of us who are
>personally acquainted with him?  I suggest you read his article and
>then see if you can maintain the delusion that he is "joining the
>revisionists."

>BTW, he's an assistant prof. at Occidental College.

Glad he got promoted.  Once again virtue is rewarded.

           Ross Vicksell


Article 13739 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: ADL on Butz
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Jul11.043639.18141@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 23:13:26 GMT
Lines: 13

kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr butz.001
>Last-Modified: 1994/07/04

>   "The Sariche's use of Arthur Butz, a Northwestern University
>   professor of Electrical Engineering who wrote 'The Hoax of the
>   Twentieth Century,' as a reference on the Holocaust prompted Peter

"Sarich", not "Sariche".  FYI Safet Sarich is a Bosnian-American who has 
been quite active lately in helping Bosnian refugees.

                Ross Vicksell


Article 13748 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!concert!rutgers!news.cs.indiana.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu!lippard
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SKEPTIC magazine confronts the Revisionists
Date: 11 Jul 1994 18:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11JUL199418443172@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>
References: <2vnnph$bfo@ankh.iia.org>   <2vqo75$s96@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...
>dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>>What the hell does Vicksell think? That if someone doesn't fall for
>>the revolting Nazi propaganda that he spews, that means it is because
>>he/she are afraid of "losing their job"!? Is there any proof, or
>>shred of proof, in what he hints about Shermer?
> 
>I'm basing what I said about Shermer on a lengthy conversation I had with 
>David Cole, who has spent a LOT of time with him.
> 
>It's of interest that Shermer first invited himself and then disinvited 
>himself to speak at the upcoming IHR conference.

Shermer's talk was not going to be a pro-revisionist lecture.  Doesn't
even the IHR's literature make that rather clear?  He just had second
thoughts about the wisdom of single-handedly trying to take on a whole
conference full of revisionists.  There are few people who can carry
off such things as anti-creationist lectures or debates before an audience
of creationists, and Shermer felt that he was going to be putting himself
in exactly that kind of situation.  He also concluded that his appearance
might give the revisionists some undeserved credibility.
   In sum, he decided it was better to address revisionism in print in
_Skeptic_ than in a conference of revisionists.  After all, we already
know that the revisionists are mostly victims of invincible ignorance;
there is little to be achieved by talking to a room full of them.

Jim Lippard               _Skeptic_ magazine:
lippard@ccit.arizona.edu  ftp://ftp.rtd.com/pub/zines/skeptic/
Tucson, Arizona           http://www.rtd.com/~lippard/skeptics-society.html


Article 13750 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user
From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SKEPTIC magazine confronts the Revisionists
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 22:25:09 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <2vnnph$bfo@ankh.iia.org>   <2vqo75$s96@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
> >What the hell does Vicksell think? That if someone doesn't fall for
> >the revolting Nazi propaganda that he spews, that means it is because
> >he/she are afraid of "losing their job"!? Is there any proof, or
> >shred of proof, in what he hints about Shermer?
> 
> I'm basing what I said about Shermer on a lengthy conversation I had with 
> David Cole, who has spent a LOT of time with him.

Would Friedrich Berg care to comment on the hearsay nature of this posting,
and the resulting reliability of the matter asserted?

>               Ross Vicksell

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 13752 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: hostages
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2vrtuv$a9@hebron.connected.com> <2vsbld$bfp@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 03:38:40 GMT
Lines: 19

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>Chuck  wrote:

># During the occupation of Germany Eisenhower issued a command ordering 
># the shooting of 125 hostages for every Americn Soldier killed by 
># Germans.  He never had to use it because the Germans didn't cause any 
># problems. 

>Must say I have no idea if this is true or not. Source, please?


>-Danny Keren.

The fact that Doyal was there obviously doesn't count.  Maybe he can dig 
up something in an old copy of the Stars and Stripes.

           Ross Vicksell



Article 13753 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:  <7aL0oc4w165w@uunet.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 03:59:43 GMT
Lines: 13

Peter Skaliks  writes:

>The same can be said for British commandos, who were not in uniform. By 
>the convention they are terrorists, pirates, or spies. You can take your 
>pick. They are usually subjected to summary execution. That is the risk 
>you take when you engage in military activities out of uniform.

I believe the commandos were, in general, in uniform.  Thus those captured
in in the most famous commando raid of the war, on Dieppe, became POWs, 
not corpses.

             Ross Vicksell



Article 13756 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:  <7aL0oc4w165w@uunet.ca> <1994Jul11.012733.16537@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 04:09:59 GMT
Lines: 4

Lidice was not chosen at random.  The Germans suspected the villagers of 
having given refuge to the assassins of Reinhard Heydrich.

                   Ross Vicksell


Article 13758 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The consistency of the denier mind (part 4, was Re: hostages)
Date: 12 Jul 1994 01:46:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <2vtanu$t2e@access3.digex.net>
References: <2vrtuv$a9@hebron.connected.com> <2vsbld$bfp@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>The fact that Doyal was there obviously doesn't count.

    Ross believes that the fact Doyal was there counts (although Chuck
gives no real evidence he was there). 

    But Ross does not believe the fact that Gerstein was there counts.

    Ross does not believe the fact that Ho"ss was there counts.

    Ross does not believe the fact that Bo"ck was there counts.

    Ross does not believe the fact that Broad was there counts.

    Ross does not believe the fact that Pfannenstiel was there counts.

    Ross does not believe the fact that Fajnzylberg was there counts.

    Ross does not believe the fact that Fuchs was there counts.


    Obviously, Ross *does* believe in the old adage, "Consistency is the
hobgoblin of small minds."  Well, on that basis, Ross has a bigger mind
than Marilyn vos Santos.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 13760 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!dspiegel
From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: hostages
Message-ID: 
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References: <2vrtuv$a9@hebron.connected.com> <2vsbld$bfp@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 06:17:33 GMT
Lines: 34

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
>>Chuck  wrote:
>
>># During the occupation of Germany Eisenhower issued a command ordering 
>># the shooting of 125 hostages for every Americn Soldier killed by 
>># Germans.  He never had to use it because the Germans didn't cause any 
>># problems. 
>
>>Must say I have no idea if this is true or not. Source, please?
>
>
>>-Danny Keren.
>
>The fact that Doyal was there obviously doesn't count.  

   I'm confused. There is no statement in his post saying something like
"I was there...". Further, which 'there' was he at? Was he there when 
the order was given, or was he there when 125 hostages weren't shot,
or was he there when the Germans weren't causing any problems (and if
they weren't, why was he there)?
   Continuing, how do you know he was "there", wherever that is? 

>							Maybe he can dig 
>up something in an old copy of the Stars and Stripes.
>
>           Ross Vicksell

-DS
I speak for myself only.
No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else.
Please do not use my name in any subject headers.


Article 13762 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Date: 12 Jul 1994 11:27:40 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <2vtunc$gtk@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <7aL0oc4w165w@uunet.ca> <1994Jul11.012733.16537@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu


Wow, so now our "revisionists" are claiming that it's ok
to butcher 260 people and send the rest to concentration camps
because they were suspected (all of them!?) in hiding those
who killed Heydrich.

One has to realize that this "revisionism" goes way beyond simply
denying the Holocaust. It is an attempt to whitewash Nazism
and, incredibly, present the Nazis as the "good guys" in WW2.
The final goal is, most probably, to reinstate Nazism.


-Danny Keren.




Article 13763 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Date: 12 Jul 1994 11:35:37 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 12
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References:  <7aL0oc4w165w@uunet.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu


For the way the Nazis treated captured commando, one should read
"The Natzweiler Trial", which brings the story of four women
(British and French) who were captured in Nazi-occupied territory.

The four women were injected with poison and immediately put
in the crematory. According to the testimony of some of the
witnesses, it looks very possible that they were still alive
when they were thrown into the furnace.


-Danny Keren.


Article 13779 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:  <7aL0oc4w165w@uunet.ca>  <2vtv69$h71@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 21:05:42 GMT
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dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:


>For the way the Nazis treated captured commando, one should read
>"The Natzweiler Trial", which brings the story of four women
>(British and French) who were captured in Nazi-occupied territory.

>The four women were injected with poison and immediately put
>in the crematory. According to the testimony of some of the
>witnesses, it looks very possible that they were still alive
>when they were thrown into the furnace.


>-Danny Keren.


The commandos were a branch of the military. The U.S. Army Rangers were 
patterned after them.

The four unfortunate women you're talking about were, I believe, spies.

          Ross Vicksell


Article 13783 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: <1994Jul12.092859.303@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (MILTON JOHN KLEIM, JR.)
Date: 12 Jul 94 09:28:58 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
References:  <7aL0oc4w165w@uunet.ca> 
 <1994Jul11.012733.16537@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> ,<2vtunc$gtk@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
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Danny Keren writes:

>One has to realize that this "revisionism" goes way beyond simply
>denying the Holocaust. 

For revisionism as a whole, no.

>It is an attempt to whitewash Nazism and, incredibly, present the Nazis 
>as the "good guys" in WW2.

For many revisionists, yes.  Presenting the _facts_ about National Socialism
tends to show who the _genuine_ "good guys" were.

>The final goal is, most probably, to reinstate Nazism.

For some of us, including myself, yes.



Article 13794 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: BUTZ: "I don't want to hear anymore of this!"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Jul11.043512.18067@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 03:39:19 GMT
Lines: 5

Just for the fun of it, I'm going to send Ms. Kopecky' s piece to Arthur
Butz to see what his version of the 1981 "debate" is. 


          Ross Vicksell


Article 13796 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BUTZ: "I don't want to hear anymore of this!"
Date: 13 Jul 1994 01:00:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Just for the fun of it, I'm going to send Ms. Kopecky' s piece to Arthur
>Butz to see what his version of the 1981 "debate" is. 

    Well, Ross, if you *really* want some fun, I imagine that it is likely
that you could procure a tape of the event from CNN.  Why don't you write
them and ask?  Then you could compare Butz's version with the truth. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 13800 of alt.revisionism:
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From: chip@fin.uucp (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 11:40:36 GMT
Message-ID: 
References:  <7aL0oc4w165w@uunet.ca> <1994Jul11.012733.16537@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Reply-To: chip%fin.uucp@dg-rtp.dg.com
Organization: Fantastic Information Network
Lines: 11

According to codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell):
>Lidice was not chosen at random.  The Germans suspected the villagers
>of having given refuge to the assassins of Reinhard Heydrich.

But did they have *evidence* that *all* the villagers did so?

Of course not.

It was murder, pure and simple.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg          or 


Article 13830 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:13830 alt.conspiracy:42158
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.kooks
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2uvoti$r8o@agate.berkeley.edu> <2vej30$7lq@news1.svc.portal.com>  <3017q8$agf@news1.svc.portal.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:22:38 GMT
Lines: 55

patrik@shell.portal.com (Patrick M Crumhorn) writes:

>Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

>: This is all a very nice story but how does any of it show that the
>: LaRouchies *aren't* kookoo?

>    That was not the question I was responding to.  It just shows thay 
>aren't "kookoo" about the things they were being accused of being 
>"kookoo" about.  
>    Now if you wanted to discuss LaRouche's belief that jazz is an 
>inherently immoral form of music, that's another story. B-)  But LaRouche 
>is right on the money about the ADL's pedigree, and about the 
>geopolitical and financial machinations of the British Empire.  Funny how 
>he gets attacked over the easiest things to verify historically.  Also 
>funny how people insist that criticising criminal scum like Roy Cohn and 

(A left-wing friend of mine pointed out that Roy Cohn was such a bastard 
(his word, not mine) that he routinely engaged in gay-bashing, although 
he was a homosexual himself.)

>Meyer Lansky is somehow equivalent to anti-semitism, even when the 
>criticism comes from Jewish-Americans.  Goes to show that the ADL, as a 
>propaganda arm for organized crime, has done its work quite well.

>	Patrick Crumhorn	patrik@cup.portal.com

What's interesting to me is that the LaRouche organization has nothing to
say, either in "The Ugly Truth About the ADL" or in the pages of the New
Federalist about the ADL's obvious role as a propagandist for the state of
Israel. 

A magazine called "Worth" (It seems to mainly about how you can make a
bundle playing the stock market.) does a hatchet job on LaRouche in their
current issue.  Although presumably the mag is not a big seller (It's
available in only two public libraries in Eastern Mass.) the local
LaRouche group is hopping mad - They picketed the Boston TV station that
interviewed the author of the smear article. 

The article doesn't really address any of LaRouche's major views, which 
isn't surprising, seeing the author got most of his facts from the 
"LaRouche Expert" at the ADL.

The article is mostly about the purported way LaRouche fundraisers rob
rich elderly widows of their life savings.  The amount of truth in these
allegations is illustrated by the fact that there's only one criminal
investigation going on, in the whole country, of LaRouche fund-raising
methods.  That's in New Mexico, and it's only an investigation, not a
lawsuit. 

Look, it's a free country. If elderly people want to give money to a 
political cause they consider worthwhile, more power to 'em.

                    Ross Vicksell



Article 13837 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:13837 alt.conspiracy:42176
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:22:38 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <2uvoti$r8o@agate.berkeley.edu> <2vej30$7lq@news1.svc.portal.com>
	 <3017q8$agf@news1.svc.portal.com>
	
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 00:43:24 GMT
Lines: 29


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>The article is mostly about the purported way LaRouche fundraisers rob
>rich elderly widows of their life savings.  The amount of truth in these
>allegations is illustrated by the fact that there's only one criminal
>investigation going on, in the whole country, of LaRouche fund-raising
>methods.  That's in New Mexico, and it's only an investigation, not a
>lawsuit. 

I thought that was what LaRouche was serving prison time for (among
other things), tho I think he's out now.

>Look, it's a free country. If elderly people want to give money to a 
>political cause they consider worthwhile, more power to 'em.

No, the problem was they'd get their credit card numbers for one
donation and then randomly re-punch more donations every few months or
whatever they thought they could get away with, without the owner's
permission.

As usual a revisionist has the story cocked-up and twisted to his own
point of view...why am I not surprised?


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13838 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: BUTZ: The world's greatest conspiracy
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:21:09 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1994Jul11.044252.18321@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
	
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 00:51:52 GMT
Lines: 49


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
>
>: Personally I think Butz was just afraid of losing his job...
>
>: -- 
>:         -Barry Shein
>
>: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
>
>Naw, he's tenured, unlike Shermer.

There was some revisionist at Cornell in the early 70's. He was
tenured. I believe they got rid of him. Hmm, maybe it was Butz?

The problem was he was an engineering professor or some such thing but
decided he preferred writing history tracts on why the holocaust
didn't happen or some such thing. It wasn't engineering by any
stretch, not even engineering kind of articles like about gas chambers
etc. I wasn't really all that interested in the matter at the time tho
it was in the school paper etc.

He also refused to teach courses (in his field), take on grad
students, etc.

So the administration first moved him to a broom closet or something
like that and finally managed to terminate his contract.

Most tenure contracts include something about substantially refusing
to do your job (and of course the famous "moral terpitude" tho that
wouldn't be relevant here.) I think the basic idea is to get a bunch
of tenured profs to finally decide (since they have an interest in the
strength of tenure contracts they're not likely to do something like
this frivolously just to save a billion dollar university like Cornell
one prof's salary even if the salary is going down the tubes, not the
first time...)

Maybe Butz is a professor of fiction or something. But he probably
full well knows there are limits to being too cocky about such things
as tenure.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13864 of alt.revisionism:
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From: markb@hook.eecs.nwu.edu (Mark E. Brodsky)
Subject: Re: BUTZ: The world's greatest conspiracy
Message-ID: 
Sender: usenet@eecs.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
References: <1994Jul11.044252.18321@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>   
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 19:41:34 GMT
Lines: 9

Butz is a professor of Electrical Engineering. He got tenure before he
published "Hoax". As much as I dislike his views, I must admit he has
done nothing that could get him removed. (i.e. He still teaches
Undergrad, I don't know if he has grad students) 
-- 
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
-Richard Nixon 
Mark E. Brodsky					E-mail: mark-brodsky@nwu.edu
Northwestern University                         or  markb@casbah.acns.nwu.edu


Article 13877 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:13877 alt.conspiracy:42260
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.kooks
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2uvoti$r8o@agate.berkeley.edu> <2vej30$7lq@news1.svc.portal.com> 	 <3017q8$agf@news1.svc.portal.com> 	 
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 23:25:54 GMT
Lines: 37

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>>The article is mostly about the purported way LaRouche fundraisers rob
>>rich elderly widows of their life savings.  The amount of truth in these
>>allegations is illustrated by the fact that there's only one criminal
>>investigation going on, in the whole country, of LaRouche fund-raising
>>methods.  That's in New Mexico, and it's only an investigation, not a
>>lawsuit. 

>I thought that was what LaRouche was serving prison time for (among
>other things), tho I think he's out now.

After I read the latest piece of LaRouche literature about how he got 
railroaded, I'll reply at length to this.

>>Look, it's a free country. If elderly people want to give money to a 
>>political cause they consider worthwhile, more power to 'em.

>No, the problem was they'd get their credit card numbers for one
>donation and then randomly re-punch more donations every few months or
>whatever they thought they could get away with, without the owner's
>permission.

There was some truth to this.  However, they've long since cleaned up 
their act.  Plastic is a dirty word in LaRouche circles now.

>As usual a revisionist has the story cocked-up and twisted to his own
>point of view...why am I not surprised?


>-- 
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 13878 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: BUTZ: The world's greatest conspiracy
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Jul11.044252.18321@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  	 
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 1994 01:38:41 GMT
Lines: 69

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>>Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
>>
>>: Personally I think Butz was just afraid of losing his job...
>>
>>: -- 
>>:         -Barry Shein
>>
>>: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>>: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
>>
>>Naw, he's tenured, unlike Shermer.

>There was some revisionist at Cornell in the early 70's. He was
>tenured. I believe they got rid of him. Hmm, maybe it was Butz?

I doubt it.  Butz has been on the faculty at Northwestern since '66. As 
far as I know, his magnum opus, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, was 
his maiden voyage into the dark seas of revisionism.  That came out 
around '75.

>The problem was he was an engineering professor or some such thing but
>decided he preferred writing history tracts on why the holocaust
>didn't happen or some such thing. It wasn't engineering by any
>stretch, not even engineering kind of articles like about gas chambers
>etc. I wasn't really all that interested in the matter at the time tho
>it was in the school paper etc.

>He also refused to teach courses (in his field), take on grad
>students, etc.

>So the administration first moved him to a broom closet or something
>like that and finally managed to terminate his contract.

>Most tenure contracts include something about substantially refusing
>to do your job (and of course the famous "moral terpitude" tho that
>wouldn't be relevant here.) I think the basic idea is to get a bunch
>of tenured profs to finally decide (since they have an interest in the
>strength of tenure contracts they're not likely to do something like
>this frivolously just to save a billion dollar university like Cornell
>one prof's salary even if the salary is going down the tubes, not the
>first time...)

>Maybe Butz is a professor of fiction or something. But he probably
>full well knows there are limits to being too cocky about such things
>as tenure.

He's survived this long, but he still has to take a bit of harassment 
whenever he makes revisionist noises.

Closer to home, there's Clyde Magarelli, a sociology prof with revisionist
leanings.  He's at William Patterson College in Wayne NJ. He says his
troubles started when he became the advisor for the college Arab student
club.  He's been on the faculty for 26 years and he's still an Assistant
Prof. The administration claims he was behaving turpitudinously while he
was over in London researching in the Imperial War Museum.  He's says he's
tried every way he knows of to get a promotion, but everybody more or less
fluffs him off.

>-- 
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

          Ross Vicksell


Article 13888 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: BUTZ: "I don't want to hear anymore of this!"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <1994Jul11.043512.18067@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <2vvsd5$s9j@access3.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:40:15 GMT
Lines: 21

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:
: >Just for the fun of it, I'm going to send Ms. Kopecky' s piece to Arthur
: >Butz to see what his version of the 1981 "debate" is. 

:     Well, Ross, if you *really* want some fun, I imagine that it is likely
: that you could procure a tape of the event from CNN.  Why don't you write
: them and ask?  Then you could compare Butz's version with the truth. 

: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

I'll call them.  My guess is that they don't save broadcasts that far 
back, but I'll give it the old college try.

BTW, I've sent McVay's original post to Butz, as promised.  

               Ross Vicksell


Article 13892 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: BUTZ: The world's greatest conspiracy
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <1994Jul11.044252.18321@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:21:09 GMT
Lines: 13

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: Personally I think Butz was just afraid of losing his job...

: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Naw, he's tenured, unlike Shermer.

            Ross Vicksell


Article 13961 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:13961 alt.conspiracy:42424
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <30avlt$dhd@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 04:54:53 GMT
Lines: 20

In your lengthy post I find only one reference to credit cards : it just
says how LaRouche was charged with credit card fraud but doesn't say how
he responded to the charge.  Nor can I find anything about credit cards in
the latest piece of LaRouche literature: Summary of Relevant the Record
Demomstrating The Innocence of Lyndon LaRouche And Co-Defendants. 

I'm in general agreement with LaRouche's economic theories, so I find it 
disappointing that he doesn't address this accusation.

Also, I must confess that I don't go along with his opposition to 
environmentalism and population control.

Lastly, he's got to be kidding about Satanism.  Apparently Mark Twain,
Henry James, and Aldous Huxley we're all Satanists.  What took the cake,
though, was when a LaRoucher told me, with a straight face, that Brave New
World was an advocacy work, i.e. that Huxley was painting a utopian
picture of how he wanted the world of the future to look.  I should have
asked the guy what he thought about "1984." 

                Ross Vicksell


Article 14004 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Herr Berg
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <30b7g1$mnf@mits.mdata.fi>
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 22:19:21 GMT
Lines: 14

kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) writes:

>It's been fascinating to observe how Herr Berg has little by little
>lost his artifical gilding of at the first place trasparent civilization
>and how he's degenerated to the disgusting genuine nazi scum what he
>really is. At least in my eyes he's lost every bit of credibility he
>ever might have had. So count me in with the "hate mongers" - I'm
>ashamed if you don't.

You say anything positive about Nazism and you become, ipso facto, "Nazi 
scum."  Can't win for losing.

            Ross Vicksell



Article 14005 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Herr Berg
Date: 18 Jul 1994 23:28:26 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <30f36q$8va@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <30b7g1$mnf@mits.mdata.fi> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

# You say anything positive about Nazism and you become, ipso facto, 
# "Nazi scum."  Can't win for losing.

Vicksell writes this in order to defend Berg (after all, it was him
who brought Berg to the net...).

A rather lame attempt.

Berg has gone way beyond "saying anything positive about Nazism". He
hails Nazism, calls those who debate with him "Jewish trash" and
"Jewish slime", says that Jews are ugly, justifies the action of
putting them into concentration camps, etc.

There is simply no denying and no avoiding the fact that the large
majority of "Holocaust revisionists" are die-hard Nazis and racists.
We have seen this demonstrated many times on the net, and it's also 
true for the "leaders" of this crackpot movement.


-Danny Keren.



Article 14007 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Herr Berg
Date: 19 Jul 1994 03:35:57 +0300
Organization: MITS, Helsinki, Finland
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <30f75d$k41@mits.mdata.fi>
References: <30b7g1$mnf@mits.mdata.fi> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:

>You say anything positive about Nazism and you become, ipso facto, "Nazi 
>scum."  Can't win for losing.


I'm stupefied and speechless in fron of the intellectual comment of this old,
wise man. There is even latin words included, and a proverb of some kind...
Mr. Vicksell really is the mother of all thinkers! Herr "Auschwitz was a
nice place" Berg has an iron defender!
"Anything postive"... really...


>            Ross Vicksell


-- 
kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi        Look for your other half
Kari Nenonen                  who walks always next to you
Maavallintie 4,               and tends to be who you aren't
00430 Helsinki FINLAND                    Antonio Machado   


Article 14011 of alt.revisionism:
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From: tinggaard@aol.com (Tinggaard)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Herr Berg
Date: 18 Jul 1994 20:51:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <30f81n$4bd@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

>You say anything positive about Nazism and you become, ipso facto, "Nazi 
>scum."  Can't win for losing.

I dont think it was so much that Herr Berg said nice things about Nazis as
much as the adjectives he was applying to Jews and his detractors that got
him branded Nazi scum, Ross.

For example, if I lauded the Nazis for getting the trains running on time
(well, at least up to the point where the Allieds started bombing bridges,
I guess), I dont think I would be called Nazi scum.

(Then again, Ive been wrong before...)

E.M.



Article 14017 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Herr Berg
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Mon, 18 Jul 1994 22:19:21 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <30b7g1$mnf@mits.mdata.fi> 
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 02:45:47 GMT
Lines: 62


Mr Vicksell speaking about Mr Berg...

>You say anything positive about Nazism and you become, ipso facto, "Nazi 
>scum."  Can't win for losing.
>
>            Ross Vicksell

A gallery of "anything positive" by Berg...

From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Subject: Re: back to basics
Date: 3 Jul 1994 18:15:14 GMT

>He assured me he was Jewish, his whole family was Jewish 
>and that there were at least seven thousand other Jews in Cracow.  He 
>was a rather ugly character, lots of Jews are
	...
>"If you ask them a question, they don't give you a straight answer--they
>give you another question."  It sounded all too familiar. 


From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Subject: Re: Hostages Etc.
Date: 17 Jul 1994 01:41:06 GMT

>I suggest you tell the truth and change your name to SLIME.  You could even 
>call yourself Barry Jewish Slime.     
	...
>After Palestine is completely liberated, where will you run to 
>next--Mars, Jupiter?


From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Subject: Re: Hostages Etc.
Date: 17 Jul 1994 01:49:55 GMT

>After reading Shein, can anyone really be surprised that the Germans 
>would people like him in concentration camps during WW2.  That is 
>precisely where people like him belonged--that is the only thing his 
>talmudic logic, his filthy sophistry, is ever able to prove.

--------------------

Sorry, I can't seem to find the "Jewish trash" and some other quotes
right this moment...

C'mon Vicksell, this is what you want to defend?

This is hardly a person who merely says a few positive things about
Nazis, this is unrestrained vomit.

Cut the shit and next time you have a temptation to make such a remark
do everyone a favor and save the above Berg quotes and include them
and make sure your remark covers them also. Or if you don't include
them I will, so you might as well.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14019 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Herr Berg
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 22:50:23 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <30b7g1$mnf@mits.mdata.fi> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) writes:
> 
> >It's been fascinating to observe how Herr Berg has little by little
> >lost his artifical gilding of at the first place trasparent civilization
> >and how he's degenerated to the disgusting genuine nazi scum what he
> >really is. At least in my eyes he's lost every bit of credibility he
> >ever might have had. So count me in with the "hate mongers" - I'm
> >ashamed if you don't.
> 
> You say anything positive about Nazism and you become, ipso facto, "Nazi 
> scum."  Can't win for losing.

No.  If you say anything positive about Nazism, your judgment becomes
rather questionable.  You say many positive things about Nazism, *and* deny
the occurrence of the Holocaust, *and* reveal your true colors by
justifying Nazi atrocities and ranting about the Jews the way Berg
does...and then you perhaps accede to the title of "Nazi scum."

>             Ross Vicksell

Don't worry, Ross.  You may be a willfully ignorant Holocaust denier, and
you may lack all credibility, but you have yet to demonstrate that you are
Nazi scum.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 14024 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Allied Looting of German Technology
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <30d2km$32c@ankh.iia.org> <1994Jul18.063731.15296@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 04:05:52 GMT
Lines: 5

Nobody seems to be denying the wholesale looting that the Allies carried 
out in Germany after the war.  Hell, the Russians carted off whole factories!
But it was O.K., because it was somehow Hitler's fault.  Uh huh.

             Ross Vicksell


Article 14029 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Herr Berg & "Jewish trash"
References: <30b7g1$mnf@mits.mdata.fi>  
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul19.153933.22501@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 15:39:33 GMT

In article  bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>Sorry, I can't seem to find the "Jewish trash" and some other quotes
>right this moment...

Checking my Berg archives, I grep for 'trash' and find:

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Berg lying about Operation Reinhard killing engine
Date: 28 Jun 1994 01:07:42 -0400
Message-ID: <2uob6u$cdj@mary.iia.org>

"Maybe some other engineer out there in cyberland will have the patience 
to teach this Jewish trash something about the real world.  I have lost 
my patience."

Mr. Berg seems of late to have developed a problem controlling the
spittle oozing down his chin.

-- 
  "Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer." 
  (Himmler, Heinrich.  See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
                Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp .  140ff)


Article 14039 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied Looting of German Technology
Date: 19 Jul 1994 09:09:12 GMT
Organization: Update, Uppsala Student Computer Club, Uppsala, Sweden
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <30d2km$32c@ankh.iia.org> <1994Jul18.063731.15296@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: krille.update.uu.se
In-reply-to: codfish@netcom.com's message of Tue, 19 Jul 1994 04:05:52 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Nobody seems to be denying the wholesale looting that the Allies carried 
>out in Germany after the war.  Hell, the Russians carted off whole factories!
>But it was O.K., because it was somehow Hitler's fault.  Uh huh.

"Hmmm, they have found the dog poop I left on the sidewalk.. Hey guys,
look over here instead!"
Ross, why don't you answer the questions posed to you first, before
moving on to the next topic. And, to answer your question, no, there
was 'looting' carried out by the allies. Some of it was labelled
"compensation for damages" caused by the German forces. I really _do_
wonder why some of Germanys neighbours wanted compensation.. I mean,
it's not as if they ever got mistreated by Germany, right? Being
treated to champagne daily, right? Really, we all misunderstand what
you say, all the time. Not.

--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 14043 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied Looting of German Technology
Date: 19 Jul 1994 17:24:00 +0300
Organization: MITS, Helsinki, Finland
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <30gnm0$pc7@mits.mdata.fi>
References: <30d2km$32c@ankh.iia.org> <1994Jul18.063731.15296@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Nobody seems to be denying the wholesale looting that the Allies carried 
>out in Germany after the war.  Hell, the Russians carted off whole factories!
>But it was O.K., because it was somehow Hitler's fault.  Uh huh.

No, Mr. Vicksell, nobody is denying the fact that lootings by the allies
happened. So there's no point in making it an issue here. Nobody is
denying that many innocent German civils died during the WWII, so there
is no point in making that an issue here, either. But somebodies are
denying that the Holocaus never happened - and that's the main issue
here. Got it?


>
>             Ross Vicksell


-- 
kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi        Look for your other half
Kari Nenonen                  who walks always next to you
Maavallintie 4,               and tends to be who you aren't
00430 Helsinki FINLAND                    Antonio Machado   


Article 14052 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Uwe Roessler)
Subject: Re: Allied Looting of German Technology
Message-ID: <4ASQBF3S@gwdu03.gwdg.de>
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
References: <30d2km$32c@ankh.iia.org> <1994Jul18.063731.15296@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 18:02:17 GMT
Lines: 50

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>Nobody seems to be denying the wholesale looting that the Allies carried 
>out in Germany after the war.  Hell, the Russians carted off whole factories!
>But it was O.K., because it was somehow Hitler's fault.  Uh huh.

>             Ross Vicksell


Could you please provide any argument, why the demontage of German industries
and the lifting of intellectual properties was illegal by the standards
of international law? Mind what the  meaning of "unconditional
surrender" is: Germany was GOVERNED by the respective allies in their
zones, or under their common control as in the Ruhr-region and in Berlin.
Actually, I don't see, why the lifting of property rights preceding a
regulation of reparations in a future peace treaty (which actually came
never into being) must be viewed as illegal. Any taxation rised
for compensation would have had similar effects. As well, the demolishing of
Germany's arms industries is probably similar to restrictions put on the
armement of a state by international treaties, admittedly here in rather
exceptional circumstances.
Even, if you think of the Allies as inheriting the rights and duties of the
former German rightful government, you must apply the principles of the
democratic constitution of the Weimar republic. This constitution (as well
as the German constitution now) provides the possibility to restrict or
lift property rights in certain cases. (Nationalization of industries was
and is always possible.) So a legal basis for the Allies' decisions can be
found here again: the horrendous abuse of German industries not only
in the German war machinery, but through direct involvement in the
terror of the KZ's, prominently by large industries like I.G. Farben -
which were - following Berg's claims in this thread - poor victims of
robbery or looting. (The selection of technical reports,
Berg posted, is, as far I can see, related to this chemical trust.
Furthermore, it's revealing, that most of them treat the development of
insecticidic or pesticidic poisons. In view Berg's recent postings here,
this must be either a direct echo of the cynic SS-language about the
"destruction of vermin" or plain and simple a slip of subconsciousness.)

The policies of the Allies in occupied Germany may look unpleasant to the
biased, but any comparison to the Nazi terror in Europe is completely
ludicrous. Anything one could hope to find from such a comparison,
would be, that mass-murder and extermination of complete populations
are indeed different from the hardship of life in a war-destroyed country
the lack of welfare over a couple of years or the expropriation of
share-holders.

u.roessler                                 uroessl1@gwdg.de

" so wie alles alte und ueberwundne
  sich in mir sammelt und gaert"


Article 14053 of alt.revisionism:
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From: smiller@media.utah.edu (Steve Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied Looting of German Technology
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 19:07:09 GMT
Organization: Media Services / UofU
Lines: 17
Message-ID: 
References: <30d2km$32c@ankh.iia.org> <1994Jul18.063731.15296@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: smiller.media.utah.edu

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Subject: Re: Allied Looting of German Technology
>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 04:05:52 GMT
>Nobody seems to be denying the wholesale looting that the Allies carried 
>out in Germany after the war.  Hell, the Russians carted off whole factories!
>But it was O.K., because it was somehow Hitler's fault.  Uh huh.
>
To the victors go the spoils.

The Nazis shouldn't have picked a fight they couldn't win, so it is okay 
and it WAS Hitler's fault.

Sure, it's unfortunate that innocent Germans had to suffer for the crimes of 
their rulers, but that's the way the world works unfortunately.

SM


Article 14057 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:14057 alt.conspiracy:42576
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!lness
From: lness@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (lester john ness)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
References: 
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 20:46:38 GMT
Lines: 5

Ross,
	If you can't believe LaRouche, et al.'s claims about 
environmentalism or satanism seriously, why do you trust his economics? 

Lester Ness	lness@ucs.indiana.edu


Article 14059 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied Looting of German Technology
Date: 20 Jul 1994 01:01:37 +0300
Organization: MITS, Helsinki, Finland
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <30hig1$79g@mits.mdata.fi>
References: <30d2km$32c@ankh.iia.org> <1994Jul18.063731.15296@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <4ASQBF3S@gwdu03.gwdg.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi

In article <4ASQBF3S@gwdu03.gwdg.de>,
Uwe Roessler  wrote:

 - most of a long and good article deleted to save bandwith -

>The policies of the Allies in occupied Germany may look unpleasant to the
>biased, but any comparison to the Nazi terror in Europe is completely
>ludicrous. Anything one could hope to find from such a comparison,
>would be, that mass-murder and extermination of complete populations
>are indeed different from the hardship of life in a war-destroyed country
>the lack of welfare over a couple of years or the expropriation of
>share-holders.

I agree.
It's nice to hear a sane and healthy German voice here for a while
instead of those lunatics who are a discrace to German people.






.



>u.roessler                                 uroessl1@gwdg.de
>
>" so wie alles alte und ueberwundne
>  sich in mir sammelt und gaert"


.

-- 
kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi        Look for your other half
Kari Nenonen                  who walks always next to you
Maavallintie 4,               and tends to be who you aren't
00430 Helsinki FINLAND                    Antonio Machado   


Article 14086 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Willis Carto
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Willis Carto, Spotlight
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 04:54:50 GMT
Lines: 9

The ADL considers Willis Carto's tabloid, The Spotlight, to be the 
leading anti-Semitic organ in the country.

This is complete nonsense.  I defy anyone to find any anti-Semitic 
content in the Spotlight.  Anti-Zionist, yes. But anti-Semitic, no.
That's the big flim-flam the ADL has been trying to get away with for 
years - equating Judaism and Zionism.

              Ross Vicksell


Article 14100 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Allied Looting of German Technology
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <30d2km$32c@ankh.iia.org> <1994Jul18.063731.15296@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 	 
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 21:52:03 GMT
Lines: 7

flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
>Ross, why don't you answer the questions posed to you first, before
>moving on to the next topic. 

Hekp me out Jonas.  Which questions?

         Ross Vicksell


Article 14111 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 23:11:25 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> The ADL considers Willis Carto's tabloid, The Spotlight, to be the 
> leading anti-Semitic organ in the country.
> 
> This is complete nonsense.  I defy anyone to find any anti-Semitic 
> content in the Spotlight.  Anti-Zionist, yes. But anti-Semitic, no.
> That's the big flim-flam the ADL has been trying to get away with for 
> years - equating Judaism and Zionism.

I think you've got this backward, Ross.  It's not the ADL equating Judaism
and Zionism; it's the antisemites claiming to be mere anti-Zionists, but
including all Jews in their definition of "Zionist."  Rick Savage, I
believe, has provided excellent examples of this mode of thought in this
forum.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 14112 of alt.revisionism:
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From: char55@aol.com (Char55)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Date: 20 Jul 1994 23:58:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

>The ADL considers Willis Carto's tabloid, The Spotlight, to be the 
>leading anti-Semitic organ in the country.

>This is complete nonsense.  I defy anyone to find any anti-Semitic 
>content in the Spotlight.  Anti-Zionist, yes. But anti-Semitic, no.
>That's the big flim-flam the ADL has been trying to get away with for 
>years - equating Judaism and Zionism.

Ross -- and to all netters -- I have read the Spotlight and it is as gross
an example of bigotry, anti-semitism and racism as any other white
supremacist rag.  Honestly Ross, there is not one thinking person alive
today who would even think about denying Israel's right to exist right
where it is, was, and will always be.  Incidentally, willis carto is the
only white supremacist to actually put aside his race hatred and
collaborate with Farrakhan.


Article 14116 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:14116 alt.conspiracy:42712
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 04:44:17 GMT
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lester john ness (lness@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: Ross,
: 	If you can't believe LaRouche, et al.'s claims about 
: environmentalism or satanism seriously, why do you trust his economics? 

: Lester Ness	lness@ucs.indiana.edu


Article 14117 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:14117 alt.conspiracy:42714
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
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From: walter@netcom.com (Walter Alter)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:  
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 04:49:43 GMT
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lness@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (lester john ness) writes:

>Ross,
>	If you can't believe LaRouche, et al.'s claims about 
>environmentalism or satanism seriously, why do you trust his economics? 

>Lester Ness	lness@ucs.indiana.edu


reverse the logic.


 
America's Revolutionary Economic Heritage
 
by Robert Ingraham
 
In the recent period, Americans have witnessed with shock the 
devastation resulting from the floods in the Mississippi River 
Valley.  Estimates of the flood damage have now risen to as 
much as $20 billion, and, if the pattern of government response 
to other recent economic disasters holds true, there is little 
likelihood of rapid economic recovery for that region. In 1989, 
the Loma Prieta earthquake hit northern California and in 1992 
Hurricane Andrew ripped through southern Florida. These regions 
have yet to recover economically or to rebuild destroyed infrastructure.
 
We live in a country with decaying bridges, water systems, roads 
and inner cities. Budget cuts are hitting schools, libraries, 
and health care in virtually all of our states and counties. 
Our manufacturing base is disappearing. Steel and machine tool 
production are gone, and even the linchpins of what was falsely 
portrayed as the so-called "Reagan recovery"--aerospace and 
high-tech industries--are in a tailspin. Our nation, which 24 
years ago landed a man on the Moon, now seems incapable of maintaining 
and modernizing even the most basic of national economic needs.
 
The question now posed to the populace is how can we as a nation 
reverse this economic malaise and return to policies which will 
bring economic rejuvenation and a promising future for our youth. 
Populist antiestablishment rhetoric will not work. Simplistic 
calls to "balance the budget," "deport the illegal immigrants" 
and "throw the bums out of Washington" are just that, simplistic 
slogans designed to mislead desperate people, people who are 
in fact almost completely ignorant about the real economic history 
of America and the economic policies which made America great 
to begin with.
 
The only solution to our present crisis is to return America 
to what 150 years ago was known as the "American System" of 
economics. Many people have all kinds of opinions about what 
type of economic policies were the original foundation for the 
United States of America, but since very, very few citizens 
have seriously researched this issue, and since most elementary 
and secondary schools completely misrepresent American history, 
most people's opinions on this subject are wrong.
 
From its inception, and particularly beginning in 1789, America 
pursued a revolutionary economic path.  The repercussions from 
America's economic revolution changed the course of history 
and inspired patriots and nation-builders all over the world.  
This article is an attempt to make readers cognizant of some 
of the principal ideas underlying the American System. It is 
also the story of a brief period of American history, the years 
from 1825 to 1832 and the battle which took place at that time 
between the patriotic proponents of the American System and 
their enemies who sought to destroy it.
 
The hero of our story is Friedrich List, a man virtually unknown 
today, but one of the most influential thinkers of the past 
200 years. List's allies included such men as Mathew Carey, 
Hezekiah Niles, and Charles Ingersoll, again men unknown today 
but giants of American history. This article is the story of 
their fight in the 1820s and 1830s to defend the American System 
from its enemies, not today's Hollywood myths about America, 
but the real American economic system designed by Alexander 
Hamilton between 1789 and 1793.
 
Hamilton's Revolution
 
Most Americans rightly view the American Revolution as one of 
the greatest political revolutions in history. What is not as 
widely understood is that our founding fathers also created 
a profound {economic} revolution, and that these were not two 
separate revolutions, but rather two coherent aspects of one 
revolution.
 
The Declaration of Independence states:
 
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are 
created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain 
inalienable rights.... That to secure these rights, governments 
are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the 
consent of the governed...."
 
The U.S. Constitution reads:  "We the people of the United
 
States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, 
insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, 
promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty 
to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this 
Constitution of the United States of America."
 
These philosophical principles enunciated in our Declaration 
of Independence and Constitution contained for our founding 
fathers, just as they should hold for us today, very specific 
implications as to how men should and must organize society 
to ensure not only the future existence of the Republic, but 
the continuing creative role of the individual citizen in that 
republic. America, more than any other nation in modern history, 
was founded on the recognized sacredness of the human individual. 
The premise that all men "are endowed by their Creator with 
certain inalienable rights" and that "governments are instituted 
among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the 
governed" contains a clear epistemological message and a recognition 
of the creative potential of each sovereign citizen to improve 
and enrich society through his or her personal initiatives.
 
Grounded in this philosophical outlook, George Washington's 
first four-year presidential term gave birth to the most dramatic 
economic revolution in modern history. Between 1789 and 1793 
Washington's Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton issued four 
reports which created the economic foundation of the new republic. 
These reports, {The First Report on Public Credit, The Second 
Report on Public Credit, The Report on the National Bank} and 
{The Report on the Subject of Manufactures} defined the idea 
of a "national economy," that is, that a republic of citizens 
must have sovereign control over its own economic affairs, and 
not be at the mercy of British or other international banking 
forces who control what is erroneously called the "free market."
 
Hamilton argues that a republic of free citizens can guarantee 
its future existence only if it fosters rapid development of 
manufacturing, technology, new inventions, and rising skill 
levels and educational levels of its population. The national 
government, as an entity which derives its "just powers from 
the consent of the governed" is obligated to originate policies 
which will provide the framework whereby the necessary national 
economic development can occur.
 
As Hamilton says in his {Report on Manufactures}:
 
"The fabrications of machines, in numerous instances, becoming 
itself a distinct trade, and the Artist who follows it, has 
all the advantages ...  for improvement in his particular art; 
and in both ways the invention and application of machinery 
are extended.  And from these causes united, the mere separation 
of the occupation of the cultivator, from that of the Artificer, 
has the effect of augmenting the productive powers of labour, 
and with them, the total mass of the revenue of a Country."
 
The National Bank
 
The cornerstone of Hamilton's program was the National Bank 
through which the nation's credit could be directed into areas 
of productive investment, manufacturing, and internal improvements 
(canals, bridges, etc). To complement the policies of the bank, 
Hamilton proposed a program of protective tariffs, tax policies 
to promote investment in new industries and in-depth infrastructure 
development. These policies became known as the "American System 
of Economics," to distinguish them from the British colonial 
economic policies.
 
Under the British system, people were not citizens, but subjects; 
they had no God-given "inalienable" rights.  British colonial 
and "free trade" policies were based on subjugating and looting 
weaker peoples. Theirs was a policy of control, control over 
financial resources, control over raw materials and control 
of the lives of their subjects. The American System, Hamilton's 
system, sought to safeguard the creative spark in each individual 
citizen, knowing that through the initiatives, inventions and, 
entrepreneurship of such free citizens the nation could be ensured 
a productive future.
 
In this sense the American System is the very specific inheritor 
of the concepts of the fifteenth-century Platonic Florentine 
Renaissance and a true representative of the Christian notion 
of {imago viva Dei}, man in the living image of God.
 
Under the First and Second National Banks, the economic growth 
of the nation was astounding. Most Americans will remember from 
their history books the stories about the Erie Canal, the development 
of the steam engine, and the invention of various farm machinery. 
What is not understood by people today is why such economic 
development was so rapid then and seems so impossible now. Foundries, 
iron works, textile mills, and production of farm implements 
flourished as America was industrialized. The Cumberland National 
Road, canals, and infant railroads were built under a deliberate 
American System policy of national economic development.
 
In popular American history books, the person who is most identified 
with the term American System is Henry Clay, who campaigned 
for President in 1824, 1828 and 1832 on a three-point American 
System platform of 1) a national bank,
 
2)      internal improvements and 3) protective tariffs. These 
were the publicly acknowledged issues of the day. In fact, from 
the time of Alexander Hamilton all the way up through the Civil 
War, the term American System had a very {specific} meaning 
for Americans. It was not some fuzzy, debatable idea. People 
knew exactly what the American System was, something that cannot 
be said for the public today.
 
During the 1820s and 1830s, Henry Clay, Friedrich List, Mathew 
Carey and others conducted a political and educational mobilization 
to defend the American System from its enemies. The First National 
Bank had been shut down in 1811 and only rechartered as the 
Second National Bank in 1816 after the near catastrophe of the 
War of 1812 proved the urgent need for it. The Second Bank was 
saved in 1818 and again in 1822 only through the Supreme Court 
rulings of John Marshall in {McCulloch vs. Maryland} and {Osborne 
vs. The Bank of the United States}.
 
By the 1820s, America was undergoing a profound change in national 
character. Many of the leading families of New England, including 
the Cabots, Higginsons, and Sedgwicks had been recruited as 
junior partners in the British East Indies opium trade, and 
were, in philosophical outlook as well as political allegiance, 
outright traitors. Slavery, once largely confined to the tobacco-growing 
regions of the Southeast, began a period of massive expansion 
as the cotton economy spread throughout the entire South.  These 
slave owners and drug runners, together with certain banking 
allies in New York and Boston, were openly arrayed against the 
American System and determined to impose British free trade 
policies in order to more "freely" conduct their perverse 
economic activity.
 
These were the years in the period after the Battle of Waterloo 
when the British Empire, victorious in arms and unchallenged 
economically, truly emerged as a "one-world" empire. These 
oligarchs viewed their control over humanity as a means for 
economic looting and increased political power.  To fully achieve 
these ends, they knew that America and Hamilton's American System 
must be destroyed.
 
List in America
 
In June of 1825, the German republican and economist Friedrich 
List arrived in the United States at the invitation of the Marquis 
de Lafayette.  Lafayette was then in the middle of a two-year 
tour of the United States as part of a campaign to politically 
strengthen the proponents of the American System. List had been 
imprisoned, stripped of his German citizenship, and deported 
from Germany for his political activities in opposition to the 
repressive policies of the post-1815 "Holy Alliance." In 1823, 
he had met Lafayette in Paris and become intimately acquainted 
with the pro-American international networks with which Lafayette 
was associated.
 
In America, List found a nation at a political crossroads. The 
American System was under assault from an alliance of pro-British 
opium merchants, slave owners, and bankers.  Their goal was 
the abolition of the National Bank, the removal of tariffs and 
a financial system based on usury and speculation. Make no mistake 
about it, these goals were the product of a pro-British treasonous 
conspiracy. The leaders of the conspiracy were members of "free 
trade clubs" many of which were official branches of free trade 
societies headquartered in London, and many of these individuals 
later joined the infamous pro-Confederacy Cobden Clubs, which 
were also based in London.
 
In his major economic work, {The National System of Political 
Economy} (hereafter {National System}), List would write in 
chapter nine that only one course existed whereby the American 
Economic Revolution could be destroyed.  If America would allow 
the deindustrialization of the Northeast through the adoption 
of free trade and the simultaneous spread of (primarily slave-based) 
agriculture throughout the South and West, then the country 
could be ruined economically and subverted politically. This 
formulation became, in fact, the organizing perspective of the 
pro-British slave and opium faction through the 1830s and 1840s, 
and their success in achieving it led directly to the crisis 
of the 1850s and the U.S. Civil War.
 
In 1825, the immediate goal of the treason faction was to reduce 
and eventually eliminate the national tariff. Support for the 
tariff was led by the Pennsylvania Society for the Promotion 
of Manufactures and the Mechanic Arts (hereafter Pennsylvania 
Society), an organization originally founded by Alexander Hamilton 
under the name Philadelphia Society for the Promotion of National 
Industry.
 
The first protective tariff was proposed by Hamilton and enacted 
into law in 1789. Although this was a modest tariff, it established, 
as List points out, a precedent for the concept and the purpose 
of a protective tariff.  List insists that the amount of the 
tariff is irrelevant. The principle of protecting domestic producers 
and ensuring orderly productive economic growth was paramount, 
no matter how high the tariff had to be.
 
By the 1820s, Britain was dumping huge amounts of woolens, cloth 
and manufactured goods on America, frequently below cost, in 
order to bankrupt American producers and ensure a British monopoly. 
To meet this threat the national tariff had been increased in 
1820 and again in 1824, largely through the efforts of Henry 
Clay, but these tariffs proved insufficient to prevent British 
dumping. In 1827, the Pennsylvania Society called for a further 
increase in the tariff. During these tariff battles, Mathew 
Carey launched a national educational effort to familiarize 
a new generation of Americans with the founding principles of 
the American System. In 1824, his printing company republished 
Hamilton's {Report on Manufactures}, a work out of print for 
almost 30 years, and he brought out a second printing of the 
same work in 1827. What today's history books quaintly refer 
to as the 1820s "tariff fight" was in reality a battle over 
the continued existence of the American System itself.
 
To spur the drive for a new tariff, the Pennsylvania Society 
organized a national protariff convention which was held in 
Harrisburg, Pa. on July 30, 1827, and Friedrich List was enlisted 
to author a series of twelve letters to organize support for 
the convention.  These letters were published simultaneously 
in more than 50 newspapers, then collected and printed in pamphlet 
form under the title "Outlines of American Political Economy." 
Thousands of copies of the pamphlet were distributed throughout 
the country as part of the organizing campaign. National sentiment 
was rallied behind the tariff, and as a result in 1828 the new 
tariff was signed into law by President John Quincy Adams.
 
List Versus the Free Traders
 
In writing the "Outlines of American Political Economy," List 
was not content with merely describing the practical benefits 
of the proposed tariff. He used this work both to capture the 
essential character of the American System itself and to demolish 
the opposing enemy ideas of Adam Smith.  On the very first page 
he begins:
 
"I confine my exertions, therefore, solely to the refutation 
of the theory of Adam Smith and Co., the fundamental errors 
of which have not yet been understood so clearly as they ought 
to be.... I believe it to be a duty of the General Convention 
at Harrisburg, not only to support the interests of the wool 
growers and wool manufacturers, but to lay the axe to the root 
of the tree, by declaring the system of Adam Smith and Co. to 
be erroneous--by declaring war against it on the part of the 
American System--by inviting literary men to uncover its errors, 
and to write popular lectures on the American System--and, lastly, 
by requesting the Governments of the different states, as well 
as the general Government to support the study of the American 
System in the different colleges, universities and literary 
institutions under their auspices."
 
Throughout the work, List reiterates two themes--first, that 
the government as an embodiment of the nation's citizens has 
a duty to create the conditions for continued useful economic 
growth. In particular, he emphasizes policy which will increase 
the "productive powers" of society by emphasizing those types 
of manufacturing growth, infrastructure, and new inventions 
which will result in an orderly expansion of the economy and 
increased productive skills and living standards of the population. 
He shows that the tariffs of 1820 and 1824, far from benefitting 
a few rich industrialists, created economic opportunities and 
prosperity for tens of thousands of farmers, wool manufacturers, 
and individual business entrepreneurs, and he describes how 
this prosperity was felt by working people, using the example 
of Lowell, Ma. where over 100 factory workers reported personal 
savings accounts of more than $1,000, a substantial amount in 
those days.
 
List ridicules Adam Smith's free trade dictum {laissez faire 
et laissez passer}, showing that none of this prosperity, in 
fact not even the very existence of the nation would be possible 
without government intervention. In Letter Six he says:
 
"Without interference of national power there is no security, 
no faith in coined money ... no security for the health of seaports, 
no security for the commerce at sea by the aid of a navy ... 
no titles to land, no patents, no copyright, no canals and railroads.  
Industry left entirely to itself would soon fall to ruin, and 
a nation letting everything alone would commit suicide."
 
The second theme which runs throughout List's "Outline...." 
is that the American System is the only method whereby the productive 
potential of the individual citizen can be nurtured, developed, 
and unleashed. The American System is not a policy of government 
control; it is the only policy in which sustained individual 
creativity can operate freely. List stresses that the unrestricted 
so-called "free market" leads directly to monopoly and despotism, 
with wealth and power concentrated in the hands of a few. The 
"free market" is in reality an enemy strategy, designed by 
British oligarchs to subvert and control America. The American 
System, Hamilton's system, is truly revolutionary because for 
the first time in history a nation's economic policy is constitutionally 
in coherence with the notion of the creative divine spark resident 
in each individual human being.
 
In Letter Nine, List demonstrates how the British Empire has 
used "free trade" to enslave colonies worldwide, and how in 
their hatred of and determination to erase the American System 
they are determined to force American acquiescence to such an 
imperial world order. He issues an urgent warning concerning 
the spread of the slave/cotton economy in the South as a flank 
of the British schemes, and in the final letter he concludes 
with an impassioned argument to industrialize the South as the 
only means to stop this British plot.
 
List Versus the Boston Drug-Runners
 
The success of the Harrisburg convention generated panic among 
the pro-British traitors. Free trade societies were mobilized 
throughout the country to attack the work of the convention 
and to refute List's "Outline...." Periodicals such as Condy 
Raguet's {Free Trade Advocate} led the pack of pro-British hyenas. 
Meetings were called in all of the states to spread agitation 
and lies about the tariff. At one of these meetings in Charleston, 
S.C., Thomas Cooper issued the first call for southern secession.  
Cooper, the author of the pro-Adam Smith {Lectures on Political 
Economy,} later personally trained many of South Carolina's 
most rabid secessionists who led the nation into Civil War. 
The Boston free trade meeting issued a written diatribe by Henry 
Lee under the title {Report of a Committee of the Citizens of 
Boston}. As 1827 ended, this report was reprinted and circulated 
all over the country as the definitive broadside against the 
proposed tariff.
 
The {Boston Report}'s author, Henry Lee, was a leading member 
of this treasonous clique. His mother was a Cabot, his father 
a pro-British merchant involved in the India opium trade. Lee, 
a graduate of George Bush's alma mater, Phillips Andover Academy, 
travelled to British India in 1811 to work under his father 
for a number of years. Together with Theodore Sedgwick, he organized 
the 1831 Free Trade Convention which brought together Boston 
Brahmins and southern slave owners and provided a national platform 
for Thomas Cooper's secessionist doctrines. At that convention, 
Sedgwick denounced the American System as "unjust and oppressive," 
and declared:  "Fifty years ago the principle of free trade 
was unknown. Adam Smith then rose as a sun to illuminate the 
world."
 
In 1832, Lee ran for vice-president on a secessionist ticket, 
garnering South Carolina's 11 electoral votes. It was during 
this campaign that Mathew Carey labeled the South Carolina secessionists 
as "the British Secret Service." Lee was also a lifelong friend 
of both the notorious Richard Cobdon, the British intriguer 
who devoted his life to destroying Friedrich List's influence, 
and Albert Gallatin, the man who aided in the escape of Aaron 
Burr, the murderer of Alexander Hamilton. Lee was also the author 
of the 1832 free trade memorial supporting South Carolina's 
nullification ordinance.
 
In early 1828, List was employed by Mathew Carey to write a 
rebuttal to Lee's document. In his {Review of the Boston Report,} 
List systematically refutes every argument raised by Lee. More 
important, this essay, completely unknown today, is perhaps 
the clearest document ever published exposing the British free 
trade plot to destroy America. List begins:
 
"To distinguish (Lee's proposals) from the American System 
we shall call it what it really appears to us to be, the English 
or the Anti-American System." He continues: "This is what 
is urged upon us by the Boston Report, which we shall shew before 
we have done with it, is written with a feeling wholly Anti-American, 
and is advocating the cause of England as completely as if it 
had been written in that country--indeed we have heard it intimated, 
that some part of it was actually written in England. Improbable 
as this may seem, we would ask our readers to examine for themselves 
the hostile spirit it breathes to every thing that would make 
us great, and we feel satisfied, they will agree with us in 
opinion, that it would be difficult for a truly American heart, 
ever to have given utterance to many of the insinuations against 
us, which the report will hereafter be shown to contain. Mr. 
Canning's and Mr.  Huskisson's [British prime ministers] principles 
are the only principles we ought to adopt; or in other words, 
we should be much better off to manufacture nothing at home, 
go to England for every thing, and thus let Mr. Huskisson make 
laws for us, which would bring us back to 1774, Colonies of 
Great Britain!!"
 
List quotes extensively from Hamilton's {Report on Manufactures} 
to the effect that the creation of a sovereign "national" 
economy is a prerequisite for economic development. He quotes 
Hamilton on the urgency of securing the domestic market and 
on the need for government support for infant manufacturing 
and new inventions. He destroys the accusation that tariffs 
are taxes by showing that tariffs result in new industry, whose 
development will inevitably reduce the price of the commodities 
in question.  He details the prosperity generated by the 1820 
and 1824 tariffs, and, throughout the work, List continually 
attacks the fallacies of supposed "free markets," "natural 
prices," "supply and demand," and other delusions. He exposes 
how these "cosmopolitical theories" originated with the British 
East India Company as a scheme to brainwash peoples into surrendering 
their national sovereignties.
 
Dismantling the American System
 
The political offensive of Carey, List, Clay, and their allies 
was successful, and in May of 1828 the new tariff was signed 
into law. Dubbed the "Tariff of Abominations" by its opponents, 
the new law established tariff levels of 44 percent. This tariff 
level would stand as the highest in American history until Abraham 
Lincoln set a tariff rate of almost 50 percent during the Civil 
War (see chart).
 
In a very real sense, however, this 1828 fight was the last 
major victory for the American System leadership. The antitariff 
mobilization had crystallized the treasonous Boston-South Carolina 
alliance which took increasing control over the emerging Democratic 
Party. In November 1828, Andrew Jackson was elected President, 
and between 1829 and 1841, Jackson and his successor Martin 
Van Buren dismantled Hamilton's economic system. Under threat 
of southern secession, the tariff was reduced in 1832 and again 
in 1833. By 1855, America had adopted free trade with tariffs 
below 5 percent.
 
In 1832, Jackson vetoed the rechartering of the National Bank, 
shutting it down permanently in 1836 when its charter expired. 
The President of the Bank, the great patriot Nicholas Biddle, 
was driven from office, hounded and imprisoned prior to his 
death in 1844. British agents rejoiced at his death with William 
Cullen Bryant, national president of the Free Trade League penning 
gloating editorials in {The New York Post,} demanding that Biddle 
spend eternity in hell for his leadership of the bank.
 
In 1830, Jackson vetoed the Maysville Road Bill, reversing a 
40 year policy of federal support for internal improvements 
and establishing an antidevelopment policy he would continue 
throughout his two terms.
 
The policies of Jackson and Van Buren, particularly after the 
abolition of the National Bank, provoked an unprecedented financial 
panic and depression. The ensuing political crisis resulted 
in the election of the Whig presidential candidate William Henry 
Harrison in 1840. Harrison campaigned on a platform of rechartering 
the National Bank and restoring the American System.  Legislation 
was drafted and introduced into Congress to restore the bank, 
when only 30 days after his inauguration the healthy Harrison 
suddenly died, a likely victim of assassination.  Congress passed 
the legislation to restore the National Bank, but Harrison's 
successor John Tyler vetoed the bill, despite the fact that 
every member of the cabinet but Daniel Webster quit in protest. 
Since Harrison's death, no U.S. President has ever attempted 
to restore the National Bank.
 
Throughout the 1840s, northern manufacturing collapsed, accompanied 
by the massive spread of the slave-cotton economy in the South, 
particularly after the War with Mexico. By 1850, the American 
System was dead, the nation in economic depression and facing 
political dismemberment. Only the movement that resulted in 
the candidacy of Abraham Lincoln saved the nation.
 
List's Legacy
 
Although he had become an American citizen and would remain 
one until his death, List returned to Germany in 1831 and began 
organizing networks in Europe with the aim of defeating British 
imperial policy. He worked extensively in France with economists 
Charles Dupin and Michel Chevalier. He developed collaborators 
in Italy, Hungary, and Austria. In 1834, he was responsible 
for the creation of the German Zollverein, the customs union 
which paved the way for German political unity and national 
economic development. In 1841, List published his economic masterpiece 
{The National System of Political Economy}, and this book, together 
with the writings of Mathew Carey and Henry Carey, spread the 
ideas of the American Economic Revolution all over the globe 
during the late nineteenth century.
 
In 1862 the "American faction" around Tsar Alexander II founded 
the Russian National Bank, and in 1889 Sergei Witte translated 
List's {National System} into Russian, using it to devise his 
program for industrial development and railroad construction. 
In Japan, Henry Carey's student Shigenobu Kuma, a leader of 
the Meiji Restoration, founded a national bank in the 1870s, 
leading to Japan's industrialization.  In 1924, Sun Yat-sen 
founded the National Bank of China. List's writings were studied 
by Kuomintang economists, and in {Chinese Economic Theory} Chiang 
Kai-shek calls List the greatest of the western economists.
 
During the 1880s and 1890s, List's and Carey's writings were 
translated and studied in India, Romania, Mexico, Argentina, 
Brazil.  Patriots in those countries created national banks, 
erected protective tariffs, and began to put the American System 
into practice. These were not isolated developments in separate 
counties. This was a continuation of the American Economic Revolution. 
The American Revolution brought into existence a new type of 
nation, based on national sovereignty, freedom, and economic 
development. In the third letter of his "Outlines of American 
Political Economy," List states that once the American System 
came into existence it immediately became the mortal enemy of 
the British oligarchical system and that these two systems cannot 
exit side by side.  Sooner or later, one of them will be universally 
accepted throughout the world and the other will cease to exist.
 
The American System: True Free Enterprise
 
Some readers might question the relevance of this article with 
comments like "this is all very interesting history, but what 
does it have to do with our problems today? These things all 
happened 150 years ago, and times have changed." Such criticisms 
display a complete lack of appreciation of the importance of 
history and the implications of the American Revolution. Presently, 
our only hope for national survival and world peace rests in 
the revival of the American System. When the Declaration of 
Independence stated "all men are created equal and endowed 
by their Creator with certain inalienable rights," it expressed 
universal truth.  It was true then, it is true now, and it will 
be true forever. These ideas defined a new type of nation which 
recognizes as its founding principle the concept of individual 
man made in the image of a creative rational deity.  In formulating 
the American System, Hamilton, and his allies devised an economic 
system in coherence with this image of man.
 
Such an approach has obvious implications for the present day. 
Take the situation in the Mississippi River basin. Damage from 
the recent floods is estimated at $20 billion, devastating a 
region already plagued by a collapse of farm-related manufacturing 
and the bankruptcy of family farms. The flood damage, however, 
was preventable.  Thirty years ago, the Ralph Parsons Co.  proposed 
to build a continent-wide water management and delivery system 
known as NAWAPA (North American Water and Power Alliance), which, 
if in place today would, have provided the flood control necessary 
to harness the Mississippi. NAWAPA is the obvious modern example 
of the type of water projects, canals, and internal improvements 
built under the American System in the 1820s. Similarly, the 
destruction of our Midwest farm economy could not have occurred 
with a national bank in place with a mandate to provide credit 
for manufacturing, agriculture, and other useful forms of production.
 
What the Federal Reserve and their Trilateral allies are doing 
today is not free enterprise, it is oligarchism.  It is a monopolistic 
financial looting operation which resembles nothing so closely 
as the British opium and slave-running bankers of the nineteenth 
century. In chapter twenty-one of his {National System}, List 
describes such oligarchical thinking:
 
"Smith's school does not discern that the merchant may be accomplishing 
his purpose (viz. gain of values by exchange) at the expense 
of the agriculturalists and manufacturers, at the expense of 
the nation's productive powers, and indeed of its independence.  
It is all the same to him; and according to the character of 
his business and occupation, he need not trouble himself much 
respecting the manner in which the goods imported or exported 
by him act on the morality, the prosperity, or the power of 
the nation. He imports poisons as readily as medicines. He enervates 
whole nations through opium and spirituous liquors. Whether 
he by his importations and smuggling brings occupation and sustenance 
to hundreds of thousands, or whether they are thereby reduced 
to beggary, does not signify to him as a man of business, if 
only his own balance sheet is increased thereby."
 
Since the 1970s, America has been transformed from an industrial 
and agricultural economy to a financial Sodom and Gomorrah. 
In 1992, over $16 trillion were invested in futures and currency 
markets, so-called financial derivatives. Recently George Soros, 
one of the leading financial speculators, has waged monetary 
warfare against the German and French currencies. This is the 
actual freedom that Adam Smith represents--the freedom of international 
speculators to attack sovereign nations and impoverish their 
populations.
 
The U.S. Constitution, on the other hand, is clear in its moral 
intent to foster productive growth and the creative role of 
the individual. That is why it defines the rights to patents 
for inventions and scientific discoveries and why it empowers 
the federal government to regulate interstate and international 
commerce.  Under real free enterprise, under the American System, 
it is the duty of the government to guarantee the conditions 
whereby free men can engage in useful commercial activity and 
scientific discovery, both for their own benefit and as a means 
of cumulatively advancing the productive powers of society.
 
In chapter seventeen of his {National System}, List describes 
how this type of approach will create the first truly human 
society in history, a society based on individual human creativity, 
on genius. List describes an ancient barbarian society where 
human worth is based on physical strength. He than describes 
a medieval society where value is placed on artisanship and 
skilled handiwork. It is only with the emergence of a society 
based on continuing manufacturing, technological growth, and 
scientific progress that the fostering of individual human creativity 
becomes paramount to that society's continued existence. In 
such a society, what is valued is not brute strength but the 
human mind.
 
The Individual and the State
 
In concluding this article I wish to clarify some ideas about 
precisely what the American System is and what it is not. It 
is certainly the enemy of the oligarchical "free market" dominated 
today by London and New York bankers, speculators and drug runners.  
On the other hand it is {not} a "planned economy." It is not 
socialism, New-Dealism, social-democratic state-ism, or collectivism. 
It is certainly not a policy of having the government tell individual 
farmers, businessmen, and workers what they can and can't do.  
This is necessary to say because today we have ranchers, small 
businessmen, lumber producers, miners, fisherman, and others 
who will tell you that they are being strangled by government 
economic policy and regulations and that their most fervent 
desire is to "get the government off our backs and out of our 
business." Although such antigovernment sentiment can become 
misdirected, that does not make it any the less legitimate. 
Producers need the freedom to produce. Farmers need the freedom 
to grow food, and scientists need the freedom to invent. It 
is the responsibility of the government to ensure that the preconditions 
exist for such activity to occur, not to attempt to control 
every step of the process.
 
Modern Western European thinkers are fond of speaking about 
the "problem of alienation in modern society." This disconnection 
of the individual to any real political and economic power, 
this existential dilemma, is in fact very real and is felt today 
by millions of Americans who are being turned into servile consumers 
and TV addicts. Collectivism and trendy versions of it such 
as communitarianism provide fraudulent solutions by offering 
the individual participation in decision making only if he is 
willing to submerge his individual will in the group consensus.
 
This crisis of human identity has obviously worsened with the 
onset of today's amoral postindustrial society, but in a very 
real way this crisis can be traced back to the destruction of 
the American System in the 1840s. In a world governed by the 
British "free-market," men are valued not for their creative 
potential but the financial loot which can be extracted from 
them. The solution to this crisis is a society in which children 
are valued for their minds, given the education and tools to 
be creative, and guaranteed the economic opportunity to apply 
what they have learned. In such a society, each individual is 
precious. That is the American System.
 
Bureaucracies do not compose music of genius, or make revolutionary 
scientific inventions. Individuals do.  The purpose of the state 
is to create the preconditions in which the citizenry may be 
fruitfully creative.
 
This is not an unattainable goal.  It in fact was the founding 
policy of this nation. The preconditions for achieving this 
goal must include replacing the Federal Reserve with a National 
Bank and taking back sovereign control over our economy. It 
must include returning to an agroindustrial economy and a commitment 
to scientific progress. It must very definitely include reversing 
the satanic new-age brainwashing going on in our schools.  If 
we as a people do these things, if we return to the American 
System, our future potential is unlimited.
 
For Further Reading
 
{The National System of Political Economy} by Friedrich List, 
Augustus Kelley Publishers, Fairfield, N.J.
 
{Review of the Boston Report} by F. List, Garland Publishing, 
Inc., New York and London.
 
"Outlines of American Political Economy," by F. List, Samuel 
Parker and Co., Philadelphia.
 
{The Papers of Alexander Hamilton,} Columbia University Press, 
New York and London.
 
"In Defense of Alexander Hamilton," by Bruce Khouri, {The 
New Federalist,} July 14, 21, 29, 1989.
 
{Treason in America} by Anton Chaitkin, New Benjamin Franklin 
House, New York City.
 
{Andrew Jackson and The Bank War} by Robert Remini, W.W. Norton 
and Co.  Inc., New York.
 
-- 
         John Covici
          covici@ccs.covici.com



Article 14118 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 05:32:11 GMT
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A very nice constructive exposition of the "American System."  I hope 
some of the people that have been slandering LaRouche read it.

             Ross Vicksell


Article 14141 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Herr Berg
Message-ID: <30m7dc$e04@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@husc7.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 21 Jul 1994 16:23:08 GMT
References: <30b7g1$mnf@mits.mdata.fi> 
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) writes:

: >It's been fascinating to observe how Herr Berg has little by little
: >lost his artifical gilding of at the first place trasparent civilization
: >and how he's degenerated to the disgusting genuine nazi scum what he
: >really is. At least in my eyes he's lost every bit of credibility he
: >ever might have had. So count me in with the "hate mongers" - I'm
: >ashamed if you don't.

: You say anything positive about Nazism and you become, ipso facto, "Nazi 
: scum."  Can't win for losing.

:             Ross Vicksell

  Dear Ross! What's so positive about Nazim? Please tell me facts not alibis-
  fraudulentus cause I don't buy them.
--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 14148 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbennett@crl.com (Andrea Chen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Date: 21 Jul 1994 14:02:46 -0700
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A few notes on Hamilton who duh roach or at least a few of his followers
seem to consider a great American hero.  

Hamilton was involved in the secret decision to pay off American
revolutionary war debts.  He leaked this information to friends and
family who then bought up the paper which was popularly considered
worthless.  When certain members of Congress argued that the
soldiers, widows and suppliers to whom the paper was originally issued
should get at least some of the newly announced payback the "right
of property" was piously invoked.

There is a great deal of debate about the economic system which 
Hamilton imposed on this country.  Southerners correctly argue
that it forced them to use their wealth to subsidize the rising
northeast because tariffs kept them from buying cheaper, superior
foreign goods.  This issue was at least as much a cause of the
Civil War as slavery and there are claims (which I am skeptical
of) that if the south had a fairer opportunity of economic
development then the "peculiar institution" may have been abolished
naturally.

Be that as it may, the economic system imposed by Hamilton helped
drain the south and the west for the benefit of the northeast.
The "robber barons" who were to remain a major power until the
early 20th century were born from this economic conglomerate.
It was quite frankly "unfair".

I myself have mixed feelings about this whole set of events.  In
retrospect the United States has done well in many ways.  If we had
a different economic system, things might not have gone so well.
But I do not think it an unquestionable good.  I believe that 
severe critiques of the whole thing are justified.  But once
again the followers of duh roach paint it in black and white. 

If one were to reinvnet the whole thing in modern terms,  then
we would (if we followed duh roachian style) claim that
Nevada, Oregon, Arizona etc.  should sacrifice to help build
California into a more mighty economic giant than it could be otherwise.
I personally am moderately comfortable with this idea,  but I
suspect residents of other western states may have some legitimate
arguments against it.  It is the duh roachian style of absolute
truths rather than specific opionions that are most offensive
about this movement.

 


Article 14165 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:  <30kroc$qp8@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 07:18:45 GMT
Lines: 36

char55@aol.com (Char55) writes:

>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
>Vicksell) writes:

>>The ADL considers Willis Carto's tabloid, The Spotlight, to be the 
>>leading anti-Semitic organ in the country.

>>This is complete nonsense.  I defy anyone to find any anti-Semitic 
>>content in the Spotlight.  Anti-Zionist, yes. But anti-Semitic, no.
>>That's the big flim-flam the ADL has been trying to get away with for 
>>years - equating Judaism and Zionism.

>Ross -- and to all netters -- I have read the Spotlight and it is as gross
>an example of bigotry, anti-semitism and racism as any other white
>supremacist rag.  

Guess you haven't looked at a copy of Instauration or The Truth at Last 
lately.  The Spotlight is primarily America-first Populist, and that 
brand of Populism does contain a strain of Xenophopia in it. Maybe we 
should get hold of a specimen issue and post it.  I understand it is 
or was available online on some private BBS.

>Honestly Ross, there is not one thinking person alive
>today who would even think about denying Israel's right to exist right
>where it is, was, and will always be.  

i've never seen the Spotlight talk about "Israel's right to exist."

>Incidentally, willis carto is the
>only white supremacist to actually put aside his race hatred and
>collaborate with Farrakhan.

He also has a "black nationalist" named Robert Brock working for him.

          Ross Vicksell


Article 14166 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <30jv4e$h8t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 07:47:41 GMT
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From codfish Fri Jul 22 00:37:18 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
References: <30jv4e$h8t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>Sometime ago, the "Liberty Lobby" sued the "Wall Street Journal"
>for describing it as antisemitic. Judge Bork rejected the claim,
>and wrote that "if antisemitism has a core, factual meaning, it
>was demonstrated here".
>
Served him right to get rejected for the Supreme Court.

BTW, I asked sometime ago if it's true that Carto got into a
>fistfight with some of the Nazis who run the IHR (this was over
>control of the IHR), and the fight developed to a stage in
>which they drew guns at each other. This was reported in the
>"Spotlight", which is the rag published by the "Liberty Lobby".
>Can anyone verify if this is true?

I have heard, ad nauseum, both sides' versions of what happened, but I 
prefer not to talk about it here.

>It's always amusing to see these Nazis fight with each other!

I seem to have a defective sense of humor.

>-Danny Keren.

              Ross Vicksell


Article 14168 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Message-ID: <1994Jul22.112815.27323@miavx1>
From: pschuller@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
Date: 22 Jul 94 11:28:15 -0500
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
References:  
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 15

In article , lness@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (lester john ness) writes:
> Ross,
> 	If you can't believe LaRouche, et al.'s claims about 
> environmentalism or satanism seriously, why do you trust his economics? 
> 
> Lester Ness	lness@ucs.indiana.edu
I do trust them.  My office neigbor was asked if she wanted to have her office 
"smudged" when she first moved in--by a coven. Also, a group can be heard in
town howling at the full moon.  
   Also, everyone who thinks at all DEEPLY --e.g., what is it to bne a human
being and how did we survive over a millions years or so (answer: be embodying
our creative thought in higher technologies) knows the LaRouche group to be
correct.  Even the Vatican is beginning to express it
anti-pagan/environmentalist and its anti-genocide concerns in LaRouche's terms
of reference. 


Article 14173 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Message-ID: <30p78v$54t@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@husc7.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 22 Jul 1994 19:39:11 GMT
References: <30jv4e$h8t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
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Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

: >Sometime ago, the "Liberty Lobby" sued the "Wall Street Journal"
: >for describing it as antisemitic. Judge Bork rejected the claim,
: >and wrote that "if antisemitism has a core, factual meaning, it
: >was demonstrated here".
: >
: Served him right to get rejected for the Supreme Court.

: BTW, I asked sometime ago if it's true that Carto got into a
: >fistfight with some of the Nazis who run the IHR (this was over
: >control of the IHR), and the fight developed to a stage in
: >which they drew guns at each other. This was reported in the
: >"Spotlight", which is the rag published by the "Liberty Lobby".
: >Can anyone verify if this is true?

: I have heard, ad nauseum, both sides' versions of what happened, but I 
: prefer not to talk about it here.

  Ross loyalty to your fellow comrade!  What did become of D.Irving?
  Now can you divulge something about yourself beside being revisionist?
  

: >It's always amusing to see these Nazis fight with each other!

   There must be away to enhance this trend among them, shall I say like
   inducing some sort of bacteria that will mutate and self-destruct.
   

: I seem to have a defective sense of humor.

: >-Danny Keren.

:               Ross Vicksell

--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 14181 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ashall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew S Hall)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: LaRouchies...
Date: 23 Jul 1994 01:07:47 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
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In article <1994Jul22.112815.27323@miavx1>,
  wrote:
>In article , lness@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (
lester john ness) writes:
>> Ross,
>>   If you can't believe LaRouche, et al.'s claims about
>> environmentalism or satanism seriously, why do you trust his economics?

>I do trust them.  My office neigbor was asked if she wanted to have her office
>"smudged" when she first moved in--by a coven. Also, a group can be heard in
>town howling at the full moon.

I hope she sent them packing. You do know of course, that Oxford, Ohio (home
of Miami U.) has ties in more than name only to Oxford, England, the home
of the notorious Lord Palmerston. It is small wonder that you have such
an infestation of Satanists.

A.
-- 
"We scale the face of reason to find at least one sign that could reveal
the true dimensions of life. 'Lest we forget- Lovecraft wasn't writing
fiction."


Article 14186 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Friedrich Berg: The spittle floweth...
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:     <3071q0$3uk@mary.iia.org> <1994Jul19.171127.22900@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 02:48:09 GMT
Lines: 11

kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:


>   Hitler saved our ass? From what? A Soviet empire that fell
>   completely apart in the space of a few months? Great perspective
>   there, Mr. Berg.... 

Now who's sweeping stuff under the carpet.  Or is that 45 years of cold 
war I lived through just something I imagined?

                  Ross Vicksell


Article 14199 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Friedrich Berg: The spittle floweth...
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sat, 23 Jul 1994 02:48:09 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<3071q0$3uk@mary.iia.org> <1994Jul19.171127.22900@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 20:22:03 GMT
Lines: 34


>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:
>
>
>>   Hitler saved our ass? From what? A Soviet empire that fell
>>   completely apart in the space of a few months? Great perspective
>>   there, Mr. Berg.... 
>
>Now who's sweeping stuff under the carpet.  Or is that 45 years of cold 
>war I lived through just something I imagined?
>
>                  Ross Vicksell

Well, agreed on the small point, but the assertion that Hitler "saved
our ass" is also belied by that same 45 years.

I suppose one could argue that Hitler was stopped. But I think that
was one cure that was at least as bad if not worse than the disease.
Almost certainly worse considering that w/o Mr Hitler somehow,
regardless of the background turmoil of the Cold War, Western Europe,
the US, etc managed to proceed on their own generally successful
course. I just don't have one atom of preference in me for Hitler and
his Nazis' style of terror, racism, etc.

I have no problem whatsoever rejecting both ends of this false
dichotomy. To me it's like a little child's game of ``which would you
rather die of, drowning in a vat of vomit or being eaten alive by
rats?''

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14204 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!newshost.wcc.govt.nz!QUIRKE_A@ix.wcc.govt.nz
From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Friedrich Berg: The spittle floweth...
Date: 23 Jul 1994 22:13:02 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <30s4le$kof@golem.wcc.govt.nz>
References:     <3071q0$3uk@mary.iia.org> <1994Jul19.171127.22900@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
Reply-To: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix.wcc.govt.nz

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>>   Hitler saved our ass? From what? A Soviet empire that fell
>>   completely apart in the space of a few months? Great perspective
>>   there, Mr. Berg.... 

>Now who's sweeping stuff under the carpet.  Or is that 45 years of cold 
>war I lived through just something I imagined?

   Quite true, Ross.

   However, I'd like you to explain how Hitler managed to help the West
survive the Cold War...

- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
 "Most people are never talked about after they're dead. "I wonder
where he got the plutonium ?" is better than nothing..."


Article 14206 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Friedrich Berg: The spittle floweth...
Date: 23 Jul 1994 23:31:31 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <30s98j$5ab@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <1994Jul19.171127.22900@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <30s4le$kof@golem.wcc.govt.nz>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

# Now who's sweeping stuff under the carpet.  Or is that 45 years of cold 
# war I lived through just something I imagined?

Can Vicksell prove that this alleged "cold war" ever happened?

Since Vicksell is a "revisionist scholar", he has to remember he's 
not allowed to use:

1) Claims like "it's a widely known historical fact" (he rejects this
   claim when the Holocaust is mentioned).

2) Documents and photographs (he rejects these when the Holocaust
   is mentioned).

3) Eyewitness testimonies (he rejects these when the Holocaust is
   mentioned).

Ok, let's see Vicksell's proof.


-Danny Keren.


Article 14207 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <30jv4e$h8t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <30p78v$54t@scunix2.harvard.edu>
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 23:49:27 GMT
Lines: 18

stara@husc7.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) writes:
>  Ross loyalty to your fellow comrade!  What did become of D.Irving?

David Irving is still alive and kicking but you don't here much about 
him, for the usual reasons -  having to do with suppression of free speech 
and blacking out of media coverage..

>  Now can you divulge something about yourself beside being revisionist?
>  
You must have missed out on the brief questionnaire I answered when I 
first joined the discussion group.
Anyway, I'm a retired software engineer and I have four cats and I'm also 
a vegetarian. (Alas, the cat's aren't.)

Hitler was an animal-loving vegetarian too - He couldn't have been all bad.


           Ross Vicksell


Article 14217 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!snoopy!green
From: green@snoopy (Trevor Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Date: 24 Jul 1994 02:33:56 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <30sjuk$juj@tribune.usask.ca>
References:  <30p78v$54t@scunix2.harvard.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: snoopy.usask.ca

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
>stara@husc7.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) writes:
>>  Ross loyalty to your fellow comrade!  What did become of D.Irving?
>
>David Irving is still alive and kicking but you don't here much about 
>him, for the usual reasons -  having to do with suppression of free speech 
>and blacking out of media coverage..

Untrue, alas...when David Irving was visiting Canada not too long ago, he
was all over the news, and only partly because he entered the country
illegally.  Remember, most of us (unfortunately, not all of us) are in the
business of refutation as opposed to suppression.  (For the record, I think
that what was done to Keegstra and Zundel was completely wrong.)

>Anyway, I'm a retired software engineer and I have four cats and I'm also 
>a vegetarian. (Alas, the cat's aren't.)
>
>Hitler was an animal-loving vegetarian too - He couldn't have been all bad.

I have no doubts as to that; I don't believe anybody, anywhere, ever, was
all bad.  Anyone who loves cats has at least that going for them.

--
Trevor Green, an evil left-handed meat-eater


Article 14280 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@connected.com (Chuck)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Friedrich Berg: The spittle floweth...
Date: 24 Jul 1994 14:41:50 -0700
Organization: Connected INC -- Full Server Internet Provider (tm)
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <30un6u$sqc@hebron.connected.com>
References:     <3071q0$3uk@mary.iia.org> <1994Jul19.171127.22900@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: hebron.connected.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:


: >   Hitler saved our ass? From what? A Soviet empire that fell
: >   completely apart in the space of a few months? Great perspective
: >   there, Mr. Berg.... 

: Now who's sweeping stuff under the carpet.  Or is that 45 years of cold 
: war I lived through just something I imagined?

:                   Ross Vicksell

try 45 years in prison Mcvay and see if it is a few months. Besides how 
many 10s of millions were murdered in those "few" months.
Chuck


Article 14307 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc.harvard.edu!husc7.harvard.edu!stara
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Message-ID: <311bl3$38t@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@husc7.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 25 Jul 1994 21:42:59 GMT
References: <30jv4e$h8t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
 <30p78v$54t@scunix2.harvard.edu> 
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
NNTP-Posting-Host: husc7.harvard.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Lines: 46

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:


: David Irving is still alive and kicking but you don't here much about 
: him, for the usual reasons -  having to do with suppression of free speech 
: and blacking out of media coverage..

  I have not heard otherwise(still alive and kicking) but wonder what become
  of him after the fight with Carto gang few months ago.
  No one suppresses Irving's freedom of speach, it's he who put himself in the
  where he can't play by the same rules that every one adheres to.
  IMHO Irving deserves where he is, and should be noted that he will never 
  ever gain respect in any arena.



: >  Now can you divulge something about yourself beside being revisionist?
: >  
: You must have missed out on the brief questionnaire I answered when I 
: first joined the discussion group.
: Anyway, I'm a retired software engineer and I have four cats and I'm also 
: a vegetarian. (Alas, the cat's aren't.)

  With due respect to all vegetarians(humans/animals) I find the association
  absurd to say the least.


: Hitler was an animal-loving vegetarian too - He couldn't have been all bad.


  Not in your eyes Ross!  Alas in mine I found him to be the worst creature
  ever lived on this plant earth. 
  I find hard to believe you have such ardent feeling for (homo periculosus). 
  Ross again is there a grain of love toward those who perished under the
  Nazi hands?

:            Ross Vicksell

--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 14315 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 07:07:24 GMT
Lines: 31

aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>	Smith appeared on the Donahue show with David Cole, a young man 
>claiming to be Jewish by birth, but was now, like Smith, an avowed atheist.  
>Both are members of a group called the Committee for Open Debate On the 
>Holocaust.   

"claiming to be Jewish by birth" - Oh, come on, be serious.

>	Cole was so rude during the first segment that after a commercial 
>break, Donahue announced that he would not be back for the remainder of the 
>show.  

Leaving the show was David's choice, not Donahue's.


>	In 1980 the Institute for Historical Review, a group devoted 
>exclusively to Holocaust denial, offered a $50,000 reward to anyone who could 
>prove that Jews were gassed to death at Auschwitz.

>	Mel Mermelstein, who lost his entire family in Auschwitz, did just 
>that.  
>	When the IHR refused to comply with its promised terms,  Mermelstein 
>sued, and won.  He was awarded the $50,000 in the original IHR offer, and an 
>additional $40,000 for the pain and suffering caused by the original offer.

Not true.  NO PART of the money he got had anything to do with the "reward."
Haven't heard much from "Marvelous Mel" since he got his ears pinned back 
last time he took on the IHR in court.

                  Ross Vicksell


Article 14329 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
In-Reply-To: stara@husc7.harvard.edu's message of 25 Jul 1994 21:42:59 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <30jv4e$h8t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
	<30p78v$54t@scunix2.harvard.edu> 
	<311bl3$38t@scunix2.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 05:12:05 GMT
Lines: 24


Vicksell...
: Hitler was an animal-loving vegetarian too - He couldn't have been all bad.

Does anyone happen to know *why* Hitler was a vegetarian? What
motivated this?

I tend to doubt it was because he eschewed killing. Independent of
whether his motivations were rational he certainly condoned a lot of
killing, even if we limit our observations to those he felt acted
treasonously.

I suppose that raises another interesting question: Did Hitler ever
personally kill anyone? I mean that distinctly from ordering someone
killed.




-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14330 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Hitler's vegetarianism
References:  <311bl3$38t@scunix2.harvard.edu> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Jul27.173725.6590@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 17:37:25 GMT

In article  bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>Vicksell...
>: Hitler was an animal-loving vegetarian too - He couldn't have been all bad.

>Does anyone happen to know *why* Hitler was a vegetarian? What
>motivated this?

>I tend to doubt it was because he eschewed killing. Independent of
>whether his motivations were rational he certainly condoned a lot of
>killing, even if we limit our observations to those he felt acted
>treasonously.

Hilberg offers a tidbit, reproduced below, which, along with other
comments in the same section, suggest that Adolf did not like to let
the public see him as a man with weaknesses. He would not, for
instance, permit portraits to be made showing him wearing his
glasses - one assumes he considered this a sign of human weakness...

   "Just before he [Hitler] came to power he began to have stomach
   pains after a meal, sometimes while he was still eating. That this
   ailment could be noticed was as distressing to him as the pain
   itself. Thereafter he would forego meat dishes, and even pastries
   of which he was fond.<16>" (Hilberg, Raul. Perpetrators, Victims, 
   Bystanders: The Jewish Catastrophe, 1933-1945. New York: Harper-
   Collins Publishers, 1992, 10) There is no apparent connection
   between this and his addiction to amphetamines.

In short, being perceived as a normal chap with normal human
weaknesses was apparently bad for business.

   <16> Leonard Heston and Renate Heston, The Medical Casebook of 
        Adolf Hitler. (Briarcliff Manor, N.Y., 1979), pp. 29-31

-- 
  "Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer." 
  (Himmler, Heinrich.  See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
                Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp .  140ff)


Article 14351 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>  <3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 05:37:43 GMT
Lines: 15


Both Greg Raven and I have pointed out that none of the $90000 poor abused
Mel Mermelstein got from the IHR had anything to do with the $50000
"reward", and if you don't believe us, it was also acknowledged in the the
trailer of the made-for-TV movie "Never Forget", which starred Leonard
Nimoy as Marvelous Mel. 

So please guys, be good sports and lay this old chestnut to rest.  In
fact, you might just as well forget about Mel Mermelstein, famous long
ago. (Unless, just for laughs, you want to read "Best Witness" by Michael 
Piper.  It's available from the Spotlight at (202)546-5611.) 

                Ross Vicksell




Article 14364 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Date: 28 Jul 1994 07:43:54 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <317njq$mh5@golem.wcc.govt.nz>
References: <30jv4e$h8t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 	<30p78v$54t@scunix2.harvard.edu> 	<311bl3$38t@scunix2.harvard.edu>,
Reply-To: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix.wcc.govt.nz

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>Vicksell...

>: Hitler was an animal-loving vegetarian too - He couldn't have been all bad.

>Does anyone happen to know *why* Hitler was a vegetarian? What
>motivated this?

   I believe he had serious problems with flatulence. Seriously.

- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
 "Most people are never talked about after they're dead. "I wonder
where he got the plutonium ?" is better than nothing..."


Article 14397 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ai292
From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Subject: Re: Willis Carto
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin)
Reply-To: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <1994Jul26.053525.8036@scic.intel.com>  <311bl3$38t@scunix2.harvard.edu> In article  bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>>I suppose that raises another interesting question: Did Hitler ever
>>personally kill anyone? I mean that distinctly from ordering someone
>>killed.
>
>While I haven't heard much one way or the other, one would imagine that
>it would have been hard for him to have won the Iron Cross in WWI if
>he hadn't.
>-- 
>Seth J. Bradley, Senior System Administrator, Intel SSD-CT
>Internet: sbradley@scic.intel.com   UUCP: uunet!scic.intel.com!sbradley
>----------------------------------------
>"A system admin's life is a sorry one.  The only advantage he has over
>Emergency Room doctors is that malpractice suits are rare.  On the other
>hand, ER doctors never have to deal with patients installing new versions
>of their own innards!"  -Michael O'Brien
>

Well, he certainly killed himself. 
-- 
Gordon McFee ai292

I'll write no line before its time!


Article 14412 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user
From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Lesson of the Holocaust
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 23:54:32 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <30vcvu$6h5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>  <3164ap$k80@access2.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Both Greg Raven and I have pointed out that none of the $90000 poor abused
> Mel Mermelstein got from the IHR had anything to do with the $50000
> "reward", and if you don't believe us, it was also acknowledged in the the
> trailer of the made-for-TV movie "Never Forget", which starred Leonard
> Nimoy as Marvelous Mel. 

OK, so what was the $90K payoff for?  Because the IHR thought Mel was a
nice guy and deserved all that money?

I believe what you are referring to as "none of the [money]...had anything
to do with the...'reward'" has something to do with the fact noted by Greg
Raven that the IHR never admitted Mel was entitled to the "reward."

To which I say, so what?  Millions of dollars in litigation settlements are
paid out every year, and in virtually all settlement, the paying defendant
denies, as part of the settlement, that it is liable for whatever was
alleged against it.  Does that mean that the defendant wasn't liable? 
Hardly.

The IHR had to pay Mel $90K, in part because they offered a $50K "reward"
and then reneged on their offer.  Spin it any way you want, the payoff
wouldn't have happened if not for the offered "reward."

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 14485 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Herr Skaliks at large (was Reports)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References:  
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 20:33:09 GMT
Lines: 3

But these were YOUR grandparents being bombed.

             Ross Vicksell



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