The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/van-alstine.mark/1999/van-alstine.9907

From: (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Holocaust Story
References: <>
X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4
Lines: 623
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:33:49 GMT
X-Trace: 931566829 (Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:33:49 PDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:33:49 PDT
Xref: alt.revisionism:540716

In article <>,
(tom moran) wrote:


>     According to the evidence of three witnesses who succeeded in
> escaping from the camp of Chelmno), as well as that of Polish
> witnesses drawn from the population of the neighborhood who had seen
> records, . . . the following preparatory phases in the process of mass
> extermination can be distinguished."

Looks like Moron forgot to mention, for example, that Eichmann visited
Chemno and watched the extermination process. From Eichmann's
interrogation, regarding his visit to Chelmno in the autumn of 1941:

EICHMANN: After the war broke out between Germany and Russia. That would
make it the autumn of 1941.  Then I was sent to Kulm [Chelmno] in
Warthgau. I recieved orders from Müller to go to Litzmannstadt and report
back to him on what was going on there. He didn't put it the same way Heydrich...not as crassly. "An action against the Jews is under
way there, Eichmann. Go take a look. And then report to me." I went to
Gestapo headquarters in Litzmannstadt-now it's Lodz again-and there I was
told. It was a special team, put in by the Reichsfu"hrer [Himmler]. And
they told me exactly where this Kulm is situated. I saw the following: a
room, perhaps if I remember right, about five times as big as this one
here. There were Jews in it. They had to undress, and then a sealed truck
drove up. The doors were opened, it drove up to a kind of ramp. The naked
Jews had to get in,. Then the doors were closed and the truck drove off. 

LESS: How many people did this truck hold? 

EICHMANN: I don't know exactly. The whole time it was there, I didn't look
inside. I couldn't. Couldn't! What I saw and heard was enough. The
screaming and...I was much too shaken and so on. I told Müller that in my
report. He didn't get much out of it. I drove after the truck...and there
I saw the most horrible sight I had seen in all my life. I drove up to a
fairly long trench. The doors were opened and corpses were thrown out. The
limbs were as supple as if they'd been alive. Just thrown in. I can still
see a civilain with pliers pulling out teeth. And then I beat it. I got
into my car and drove off. I didn't say another word to my driver. I'd had
enough. I was through. The only other thing I remember is that a doctor in
a white smock wanted me to look through a peephole and watch the people
inside the truck. I refused. I couldn't, couldn't say another word, I had
to get out of there. In Berlin I reported to Gruppenführer Müller. I told
him the same as I've told you now. Terrible, an inferno. I can't. It's...I
can't do it...I told him.

LESS: What did Müller say? 

EICHMANN: Müller never said anything. Never! Not about these things and
not about other things. He was always very terse and unemotional, he only
said what was strictly necessary. He'd say yes or he'd say no. And when he
didn't say yes or no, he usually said, "EIchmann, my friend..." That
wasn't yes and it wasn't no. He was a man of few words.

LESS: Did you report this in writing? 

EICHMANN: No, I couldn't do that. I was expressly forbidden to; by
Heydrich, I believe. Müller wanted especially to know how long it takes; I
wasn't able to tell him that, I couldn't hear. I should have gone out
there a second time, but naturally I didn't volunteer, and nothing was
said to me.

Source: von Lang, _Eichmann Interrogated_, pp.74-78.


>    "The evidence on which this account relies is in the first place
> the testimony of 13 Jews,  former prisoners at Treblinka, who
> succeeded in escaping during the armed revolt of August 2, 1943. Their
> names are: . . ."

Looks like Moron forgot to mention that when Stangl, the commandant of
Sobibor and Trenblinka, was asked at his trial about how many people could
be gassed per day at Treblinka, he replied:


Regarding the question of what was the optimum amount of people gassed in
one day, I can state: according to my estimation a transport of thirty
freight cars with 3,000 people was liquidated in three hours. When the
work lasted for about fourteen hours, 12,000 to 15,000 people were
annihilated. There were many days that the work lasted from the early
morning until the evening.


Source: Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp.120-121.  

Look like Moron also forgot to mention that, for example, in _Belzec,
Sobibor, Treblinka_ Arad provides 15 pages listing the en masse
deportations of hundreds of thousands of Jews to the Operation Reinhard
extermination camps. 

>  As an example of how contradictory Holocaust accounts can be we have
> these night and day tales -
>  The extermination camp Treblinka was still in operation when the
> Russians took over. 

> "When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the nearly dead
> survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the tales that
> they poured out were not limited to the horrors they had endured." 

Moron's claim is, of course, a lie. Moron distorts both what Sachar wrote
in a deceitful attempt to mislead the reader into thinking that the
Treblinka II extermination camp was still in operation when it was
liberated by the Soviets in 1944 when, in fact, it was liquidated in 1943
by the Germans.

Sachar writes:

Treblinka, sixty miles northeast of Warsaw, was set down in a dense pine
forest, isolated by a nine-foot electrified barbed wire fence. It was hard
to imagine that behind the always freshly painted railway station, adorned
with germaniums in neat little window boxes, a death toll of 840,000 was
being exacted, using highly mechanized extermination techniques. No
planes, friendly or otherwise, were permitted to fly over or near it.
There were two camps. Treblinka I, created in 1941, was used to punish
political prisoners who were assigned slave labor duties as part of their
"regeneration." The Poles among them were usually released when their
terms of punishment were completed. The Jews were either worked to death
or transferred to Treblinka II, which became one of the main Nazi murder
centers. At Treblinka II, 3000,000 Jews, uprooted from Warsaw, were
executed during the three summer months of 1942. The historian of the
Warsaw ghetto uprising, Emmanuel Ringelblum, referred to it in his diary
as "the slaughter house of European Jewry."


When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the nearly dead
survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the tales that they
poured out were not limited to the horrors they had endured. These called
for no review. There was no lack of physical evidence on display, the
suffocated bodies in recently arrived cattle cars, the abandoned
instruments of torture and death, the files and records that the Germans
had so carefully maintained. It was the repeated tales of senseless
cruelty that increased the Russian fury; mothers obliged to carry their
infants to their deaths ...; the woman on her way to the gas chamber,
goaded to desperation by a taunting SS man, who threw herself upon him,
and was then tortured by his comrades to emphasize the cost of
remonstrance. The prisoners remembered the little boy who consoled his
weeping parents on the edge of their mass grave with the assurance that
the Russians would avenge them. They did so, wasting no time on due

Source: Sachar, _Redemption_, pp.32-33,34-35.

Of special import here is that Sachar does _not_ say "When the Russians
took over the Treblinka II" but "When the Russians took over the Treblinka
complex." The key word here is _complex_ -i.e. _both_ Treblinka I and
Treblinka II. As indicated in _The Black Book_, there _were_ a few
survivors from Trenblinka I at its liberation as well as survivors who had
either fled or were released _prior_ to its 1944 liquidation and
subsequent liberation. From _The Black Book_: 

Treblinka had two camps:

Camp No I. -the labor or penal camp -was near the sandpit, not far from
the outskirts of the forerst. This was a camp like hundreds and thousands
in the occupied eastern lands....

Camp No. I existed from the autumn of 1941 until July 23, 1944. It had not
been completely liquidated when the prisoners began to hear the dull thud
of Soviet artillery...

In the morning of July 23rd, the guards and the SS men, having imbibed
schnapps to give them courage, embarked upon the liquidation of the camp.
Toward the evening all prisoners had been killed and buried. A warsaw
carpenter, Max Levitt, succeeded in saving himself. Wounded, he lay under
the bodies of his comrades. When darkness descended he crept away into the

Now the details about the German rule in this labor camp can be told.
Dozens of witnesses, Polish men and women, who fled in time or were
released from Camp No. I, tell in great detail in their depositions about
the laws of the camp.


It would seem that there was nothing more dreadful in the world than this
camp. But those who lived here knew there was something more dreadful, a
hundredfold more dreadful than their camp. Within three kilometers of the
labor camp, the Germans began to build, in May 1942, a Jewish camp, a camp
execution block.

Source: The Jewish Black Book Committe, _The Black Book_, pp,200-202.

Clearly, Sachar, identified the Treblinka _complex_ -i.e. _both_ Treblinka
I (the labor camp) and Treblinka II (the extermination camp). Equally as
clear, Sachar was talking about Treblinka I when he wrote that "the nearly
dead survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate" by the dint that
there were no survoivors at Trebklinka II when the Russians overan the
area. In fact, there was no Treblinbka II since it had been erased by the
Nazis in 1943.


> Revising an improbable plot too obviously improbable
>         At one time a plaque outside the Auschwitz compound in Poland
> said 4,000,000 persons had died at the camp....


> Too much real documentation forces a rewrite
>         Up until about the middle of the 1950s concentration camps
> located on German soil were the focus of mass extermination
> propaganda. Such places as Buchenwald, Dachau, Mathausen and Bergen
> Belsen were documented as the primary centers where hundreds of
> thousands unto millions of Jews were gassed....

This is another lie by Moron. The "primary centers where hundreds of
thousands unto millions of Jews were gassed" -i.e. the extermination camps
in Poland, were recognized as such even _before_ the war had ended.  

In late April 1944, a UPI report from Zurich said that 300,000 Hungarian
Jews had been concetrated in transit camps in Hungary. On May 10, 1944,the
_New York Times_ reported that the Hungarian government was "preparing for
the annihilation of Hungarian Jews." On May 18,1944, the NYT reported that
the first mass deportations of Hungarian Jews to the "murder camps in
Poland" had begun. (Cf. Wymann, _The Abandonment of the Jews_, p.236.)

This, btw, is quite accurate. The first mass deportation of Hungarian Jews
to Auschwitz, numbering 6,300, commenced on May 15, 1944, arriving on May
16, 1944.  "The arriving Jews are ordered to unload their luggage;
thereafter they are to stand in rows of five and are led in the direction
of the crematoriums. From this night on the chimneys of the crematoriums
begin to smoke." (Cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.463; Czech, _Auschwitz
Cronicle_, p.627.) 

Furthermore, in regards to the reporting of the the plight of the Jews in
American newspapers:

Within three days of the German occupation of Hungary in March 1944,
Roosevelt issued a warning that those who took part in annihilation of
European Jewry would not "go unpunished." Describing the "wholesale
systematic murder of the Jews" as one of the "blackest crimes in all
history," he promised that "all who knowingly take part in the deportation
of Jews to their death...are equally quilty with the executioner."
Roosevelt's statement was prominently reported by many paers in the
country. The _Los Angeles Times_, _New York Times, _Christian Science
Monitor_, and _New York Herals Tribune_ were among those papers which
placed it on the front page. BUt the cynacism about the American recors
which had been growing during preceding months also greeted the
President's remarks. While the _New York Times_ approved of his statement,
it reminded readers that the United States and its allies had to also bear
part of the responsibility because they had not done all they could to
provide "havens of refuge." In an editorial on the refugee situation which
was even stronger than the one it published at the time of Bermuda, the
paper declared that providing these havens and the 'means for maintenance
and support" for those facing death was "_as_ important as the winning of
the battle." Another expression of discomfort with the American record
appeared in the _Baltimore Sun_, which challenged Roosevelt to go "beyond
exhortations and threats" and "a generalized sympathy" for persecuted Jews
and be more specific regarding our rescue policy. The _New Republic_, one
of the most fervent advocates of rescue, was aslo skeptical: "one hopes
that the President's message may do some good, but it is hard to be
optimistic about it." 

Source: Lipstadt, _Beyond Belief_, pp.228-229.

Even CBS radio reported of the persecution of Jews, on June 29, 1942, for
example, Quincy Howe informed CBS listeners that:

A horrifying reminder of what this war means to certain noncombatants
comes from the World Jewish Congress in London today. It is now estimated
that the Germans have massacred more than one million Jews in Europe since
the war began. That's about one sixth the Jewish population in the Old
World. Moreover, those Jews who survive lead a subhuman existence on a
fraction of the already short rations to which the rest of the population
of Europe is reduced. The Jewish population of Germany has declined from
600,000 to 100,000 since Hitler took power. Sweden, Switzerland and
Portugal are the only countries in continental Europe where Jews still
possess human rights. In the Pacific war zones the Japanese suffered
another defeat at American hands...

Source: Lipstadt, _Beyond Belief_, p.166.



>         The infamous photos of piles of emaciated bodies so widely
> published were taken at these camps and presented to the public in
> context with statements and inferences that they were the victims of
> gassings... 

They weren't. According to Phillips, for example, in regard to Brigadier
Glyn Hughes's testimony at the Belsen Trial:

What was the food supply in the camp?- At the time of entry practically
nill -at  the most, one meal a day of watery stew made of vegatables.

What was the method of distribution?- In large metal containers which were
very heavy. There had been no bread for a fortnight and no water for
rather a shorter time, and there appeared to be absolutely no method of
ensuring that each person got their share. When a man or women got too
weak to fetch for themselves and their friends became indifferent through
their own condition, then they got none.

What water, of at all, was there available to the internees?- Just the
water laid on in the wash-places in each hut and in the concrete ponds
which they were not allowed ot go to and which, I imagine, were meant for
cooking purposes. As the water in the huts was not working I understood
the internees got none for the last five or six days.

Taking the camp as a whole, can you give the Court any summary of the
genertal health conditions? -I appreciated that of the inhabitiants 70 per
cent. required hospitalization, and that of these at least 10,000 would
die before they could be put in a hospital. There were 10,000 corpses in
the camp when we arrived there. Every form of disease was prevalent, but
the ones mainly responsible for the frightful conditions were typhus,
starvation, and tuberculosis. The cause of the didsease was the privation
and sufffering which they had gone through. Typhus was brought in on the
5th February by Hungarian prisoners, and it then raged right through the
camp, where the conditions were absolutely suitable for it. The same with

Source: Phillips, _The Belsen Trial_, pp.33-34.

> ...and intentional starvation. 

According to SS Aufseherin Ehlert:

The conditions in Belsen were a shame and a disgrace. I consider that the
people cheifly responsible were Kramer the Kommandant, Dr. Horstmann,
Untersturmfüher Klipp, who was for a time Kramer's second in command, and
Hauptsturmführer Vogler, who worked in Kramer's office and was responsible
for food supply. I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions,
among other reason, because on one occasion when I complained of the
increasing death rate to Kramer he replied, "Let them die, why should you


Source: Phillips, _The Belsen Trial_, p.709.

> The reality is they were the
> victims of the total break down of German capacity to supply the camps
> with the vital needs that they had so diligently done for years before
> the last few months of the war. 

This too is a lie by Moron. According to Reitlinger, for example:

The number that had died at Belsen since February and the first typhus 
outbreak was hardly less than forty thousand. They had not been exterminated, 
nor was their death due to Allied bombing which had paralysed the railwaysand 
disrupted the German supply system. The evidence at the Lueneburg Trial 
showed that the bakeries and flour stores of the Panzergrenadier School at 
Bergen-Belsen could have kept the uninfected inmates of the camp alive for many 
weeks, had authority been given to use them.  Forty thousand people died in 
Belsen as a result of twelve years of tolerated incompetence in the overblown 
offices of Oswald Pohl and Richard Gluecks. 

Source:  Reitlinger, _SS: alibi of a nation_, p.425. 

..Most of the prisoners that died did so after the Allies took over.

According to the transcripts of the Belsen Trial, for example, some 13,000
internees, despite "all the care and attention which could be rushed to
their assistance" subsequently died from the cruel and inhuman abuses
inflicted on them by the Nazis:

..In the huts the living and the dying and the dead were alltogether. In
the camp therere no less than 13,000 corpses unburied, and you will here
that for the last few days before the British came into the camp, when it
was obvious to the accused that before long the British would be there,
there had been a continuous procession of these wretched skeletons, four
of them to a corpse, dragging them for 12 hours a day: 2000 men dragging
corpses for 12 hours a day, burying them in large pits. But there were
still 13,000 corpses lying waiting for burial. The condition of the
corpses was something which cannot be imagined. They were so thin that it
was easy for a normal man or women to carry one, but the living were in
such a weak and dreadful condition that it took four or five of them to
drag one.

There were virtually no latrines at all. There had been some, but the
water supply was not working and they were totally inadequate. The only
provision for men and for women had been some pits with a pole across, but
in fact the internees were too weak to drag themselves to them and you
will hear that whilst this dreadful procession of corpses was taking place
they were not even allowed to go to the latrines. The result was that
there was excreta all over the place, because do not forget that something
like 80 per cent. of these people had dysentery. You will hear that they
were locked in their huts at night so crowded that it was quite impossible
to lie down even on the floor; they had to sit jammed to each other. Some
of the stronger ones and more enterprising would get boards and put them
across the rafters and get up there. You will hear that some of those who
did so had dysentery, and it was quite impossible to move from below them.

These were the conditions at night, and it is not to be wondered at that
when the medical authorities had time to check up properly on the persons
in the camp they found this position, that of the 12,000 men 2242 were
acutely ill, a further 7000 required treatment, and there were 59 new
cases a day. Of the 28,185 women, 2000 were acutely ill, 18,600 required
treatment, and there were 125 new cases a day. In addition to the 13,000
corpses found lying there, within the next six weeks with all the care and
attention which could be rushed to their assistance no less than 13,000
more died, and indeed, in addition to that 13,000, there were still six
weeks later 11,000 in hospital and 54 died on 27th May - an arbitrary
date, but they were still dying then.

Source: Philips, _The Belsen Trial_, pp.19-20.


>         A German "Master Plan" for extermination was at one time the
> popular major phrase used in Holocaust literature....



> ...the Website of the Simon Wiesenthal Museum of Tolerance will tell us 
> that all the "extermination" camps were located in Poland because of the
> "remoteness of Poland's rural areas". In actuality all but one were
> located right in the area of Polish civilian populations. The mother
> of them all, Auschwitz, was located right among a number of Polish
> villages including a town of 20,000. 

According to Höß: 

In the summer of 1941, I am unable to recall the exct date, I was suddenly
ordered by Himmler's adjutant to report directly to the Reichsfu"her SS in
Berlin. Contrary to his usual custom, his adjutant was not in the room.
Himmler greeted me with the following: "The Fu"hrer has ordered the FInal
Solution of the Jewish question. We the SS have to carry out this order.
The existing extermination sites in the East are not in a position to
carry out these intended operations on a large scale. I have, therefore,
chosen Auschwitz for this purpose. First of all, because of advantageous
transport faciities, and secondly, because it allows this areas to be
easily isolated and disguised....

Source: Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.27. 

According to Henry Swiebocki:

..In addition to the powerful presence of SS guards, the camp boasted a
sophisticated security system, constantly being improved by the Germans.
Thus prisoners who approached the electrified fence that ringed the camp
and who entered the so-called neutral zone risked being shot without
warning by SS guards manning watchtowers, which formed the so-called small
guard chain. The outer security zone, called the area of interest of the
Auschwitz concetration camp, encircled the electrified fence. Intesively
policed, this huge tract of land, covering about 40 square kilometers, had
been emptied of the local Polish population except for a handful of
skilled workers and their families- mostly miners and railroad workers
deemed indispensible for the German war economy. Next to the camp, a
special "restricted area" was established. Entering or leaving it was
permitted only to bearers of a special document issued by the camp
commandant. Numerous signs reading "Forbidden Zone! Violators shot without
warning!" were posted throughout. A special SS settlement, inhabitedy
families of the SS Auschwitz personnel, a community hostile to prisoners,
was established in the camp's vicinity. A similar attitude characterized
the Volksdeutche from the Ukraine, Wallachia, Moldova, Besarabia, and
Semgrod, who were settled on the farms of Poles expelled from the area. 

Source: Gutman _Anatomy_, p.503.


> ...The story specifying Diesel fumes over gasoline is
> like saying the bow and arrow is more effective than a gun.



> ...The pellets were a commercial product known as Zyklon
> B designed to release the poisonous agent slowly over a period of
> hours. Sort of like powerful moth balls.

>From the patent for Zyklon B"

The prussic acid will evaporate in appr. 10 min. if the contents of the
can is strewn in a thin layer, so the maximum concentration of the gas in
the room will be achieved with extraordinary speed.




>         Most people might have the idea that all the Holocaust victims
> were gassed and then directly cremated. For the most part this is not
> the case. We are told the Germans first buried millions of victims and
> then realized they better dig them up and cremate them. 

According to Conat, after the German discovery of the mass graves of the
murdered Polish officers in Katyn, Himmler decided that using mass graves
to dispose of the millions the SS killed _wasn't_ such a good idea after
all. So Himmler, in what Conot calls "one of history's most extrordinary
examples of a psychotic mentality," ordered all the corpses of the victims
murdered by the Einsatgruppe- and at the death camps -to exhumed and
burned so their numbers could not be determined. (cf. Conot, _Justice at
Nuremberg_, p.272.)

Höß confirm's this in his memoirs:

During his visit in the summer of 1942, Himmler very carefully observed
the entire process of annihilation. He began with the unloading ramps and
completed the inspection as Bunker II was being cleared of bodies. AT that
time there were no open-pit burnings. He did not complain about anything,
but he didn't say anything about it either. Accompanying him were District
Leader Bracht and SS General Schmauser. Shortly after Himmler's visit, SS
Colonel Blobel from Eichmann's office arrived and brought Himmler's order,
which stated that all the mass graves were to be opened and all the bodies
cremated. It further stated that all the ashes were to be disposed of in
such a way that later on there would be no way to determine the number of
those cremated.

Source: Höß, _Death Dealer_, p.33.


> Whether or not the bodies were left in the graves or exhumed, cremated and 
> then reburied there would be, and still would be, sufficient evidence to show 
> it was all true...


> ...but no forensic excavations were ever ordered by any
> Tribunal, court or whatever and thus none ever undertaken. 



Moron is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in blatant and
offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial. Moron
generally conducts himself with such a complete lack of intellectual and
factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to
read and respond other than to point out his vile behavior. For detailed
and documented evidence of this, please peruse DejaNews and visit the
Nizkor Project at:

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:


"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and
 evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between
 political parties--but right through every human heart--and all 
 human hearts." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"

Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.