The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/van-alstine.mark/1997/van-alstine.0197


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 08:46:56 PST 1997
Article: 90357 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 16:30:28 -0700
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In article <32d4f311.4023256@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

[Moranic[tm] Holocaust-is-like-UFOs dreck snipped]

> UFO stories have had many of their claims exposed as being lies,
> such as the two farmers who confessed to pulling off the hoax of a
> landing site in their fields.

Or lies like Zundel's about Nazi UFO's at the South Pole? 

>         Interesting.

To a supermarket tabloid fanatic maybe. No insult intended.

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 11:54:10 PST 1997
Article: 90392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news1.econnect.ca!in1.nntp.cais.net!news.structured.net!pith.uoregon.edu!spring.edu.tw!serv.hinet.net!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 03:10:12 -0700
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In article <59j0oq$ham@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <59gcth$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >
> 
> >>>>
> You showed a psychologist?  

Yes. She has an office in the same building. I though it's be worthwhile
to get a professinal opinion (and a few laughs) about some of the things
deniers say.... Unsuprisingly, she thought that what deniers typically
spout, and what they spout in particular in regard to "Jewish ritual
murder," was pretty kooky.

> Was it on one of your weekly visits?  You really
> should think about changing it to twice a week.--rb

Do you still stick rodents up your ass, Mr. Belling? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 14:01:53 PST 1997
Article: 90412 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 01:17:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 192
Message-ID: 
References: <59muof$87q$5@gruvel.une.edu.au> <5a617e$job@juliana.sprynet.com> <32d79162.7017982@news.inetport.com>  <32ca14fa.994988@news.inetport.com>
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In article <32ca14fa.994988@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 
> posted/emailed
> 
> >In article <32d79162.7017982@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:
> >
> >> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >> 
> >> >UH, huh.....Testimony from Hoess...a man who lied as a result of
> >vicious beatings,
> >> >torture and threats to his family.  NOT CREDIBLE.
> >> 
> >> The shoe falls. Blackmore is officially a true denier. His earlier
> >> claims of having an open mind are no longer to be believed. It is
> >> pretty clear that no matter what history really was, that this
> >> individual is lost to it in the world of distrust and conspiracy. It
> >> doesn't matter that he wasn't tortured at single bit prior to his
> >> interrogation at Nuremberg. 
> >
> >Mr. Curtis. according to Ho"ss in his memoirs, he _was_ beaten when he was
> >initially taken into custody by the British on March 11, 1946:
> >
> 
> I am aware of Höss claim. I was alluding to preinterrogation torture
> at Nuremberg. I know of no torture to get information out of Höss at
> Nuremberg. I even have copies of the typed transcripts of this
> testimony which isn't in _Death Dealer_. 

In that light, Mr. Curtis, you are then quite correct. In fact, Ho"ss, in
regard to his testimony at Nuremberg, wrote in mis memoirs:

"...Compared to where I had been before, imprisonment with the IMT
[International Military Tribunal] was like staying in a health spa. I was
housed in the same buiding as the principal defendants [Hermann Go"ring,
Rudolpf Hess, Albert Speear, Julius Streicher, and others] and could see
them daily as they were being led to court. There were daily inspections
by representatives of all the Allied countries. I was constantly displayed
as a particularly interesting animal. 

"I had been brought to Nuremberg because Kaltenbrunner's defense attorney
demanded me as a witness for his defense. I could never understand, and it
is not still clear even today, how I of all people could help
Kaltenbrunner's defense. Even though the prison conditions were good in
every aspect and I now had time to read from an extensive library made
available to us, the interrogators were not really pleasant. Physically
there was no problem, but more the mental and emotinal effects. I cannot
really blame the interrogators- they were all Jews. I was for all intents
and purposes psychologically dissected. That's how accurately they wanted
to know everything- this was also done by Jews[2]. They also left me with
no doubt whatsoever what was going to happen to me." (Ho"ss, _Death
Dealer_, p.179-180.) 

"2. "Ho"ss was one of the few who could, and also would give precise
information about every aspect of the mass killings. In fact, he answered
everything asked of him. He even gave personal information to Gilbert in
1946 that he felt necessary to contradict in 1947 in order to protect his
wife and family." (Ibid. p.180fn.) 

> >"I was treated terribly by the [British] Field Security Police....During
> >the first interogation they beat me to obtain evidence. I do not know what
> >was in the transcript, or what I said, even though I signed it. because
> >they gave me liquor and beat me with a whip." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_,
> >p.179.) 
> >
> >Interestingly, even though Ho"ss remembers nothing about what he said
> >then, the details do _not_ "differ in any great degree from the section
> >entitled, 'The FInal Solution in KL Auschwitz.' The later section,
> >however, does contain more detail than the origional forced statement to
> >the British interrogators."  (cf. Ibid. p.20.) 
> >
> 
> I think the point I'm failing to make is tat their has to be a
> correlation between torture and interrogations. There doesn't appear
> to be any associated with the Nuremberg testimony and interrogation or
> the Polish trial and writings.

Again, in that light, Mr. Curtis, you are then quite correct. There indeed
does _not_ appear to be any association betwen Ho"ss's forced confession
to the British Field Security Police and Ho"ss's testimony at Nuremberg or
Cracow. 

> [snip]
> 
> >
> >> It doesn't matter that his testimony doesn't change between Nuremberg 
> >> and what he wrote in Poland. It doesn't matter to this historical fraud 
> >> pretending to be objective that Hoess lowered the death count in his 
> >> Polish writings from the 2.5 million Jewish murders he got from speaking 
> >> with Eichmann to the 1.3 million murders that seems to be holding up under 
> >> historical scrutiny. None of this matters to this individual. The whole 
> >> thing becomes not credible despite records, transport records, and 
> >> disparate testimony tying into this not credible testimony. The individual 
> >> who is not credible is this 
> >> Belling/Blackmore/Tutu101/something13/Ehrlich606. Neither of these have 
> >> yet to provide historically acceptable evidence that Hoess's testimony as 
> >> to details was physically gained via violence.
> >
> >Rather, deniers have yet to provide historically acceptable evidence that
> >Hoess's intial forced statement to the British Field Security Police- in
> >which Ho"ss did _not_ recall what he said -was ever _used_ against him at
> >his trial in Poland. Neither have the deniers yet provided historically
> >acceptable evidence that Hoess's testimony at his Trial in Poland _or_ his
> >memoirs were coerced by the POlish authorities. 
> >
> 
> Then we have the Nuremberg material.

Yes. 

> >All Holocaust deniers, most especially Mr. Belling, have done is made ad
> >hominem attacks in this regard and offered nothing but unsupported
> >accusations of fould play as evidence that Ho"ss's memoir was scripted by
> >the "Communists" for him. 
> >
> >> >  Eichmann:  kidnapped from his home,
> >> 
> >> He was kidnapped while on his way home from work.
> >> 
> >> >drugged and smuggled out of the country...the Mossad had his address and
> >> >knew where his wife and children lived......who knows what those thugs 
> >> >said and did to Eichmann to get his "co-operation".....to "talk".  NOT 
> >> CREDIBLE.....
> >> 
> >> Neither of these have yet to provide historically acceptable evidence
> >> that Eichmann's testimony as to details was physically gained via
> >> violence. In fact the Israeli's took much care to treat this criminal
> >> with much care so as not to provide anti_semites with any excuse to
> >> make the unfounded charges this Blackmore nym has just done.
> >
> >Alas, it is rather apparent that anti-Semites and Nazi apologists, such as
> >the likes of Mr. Belling, need no excuses to make unfounded charges! They
> >will say _anything_, no matter how false or puerile, to feed their twisted
> >imaginations and to white-wash their cult of Nazism.  
> >
> 
> They know lies and distortions are cheap.

Yes. 

> >> >The last group:  Survivors...so many lies and hysterical imaginings all 
> >>> packed with inconsistencies and contradictions: 90% of them NOT CREDIBLE.
> >> 
> >> He we have the typical downfall of deniers. They think that
> >> inconsistent testimony makes everything not credible. All SS testimony
> >> was derived by torture. All is lies. 
> >
> >Indeed! It _does_ certainly appear that all Holocaust deniers can do is
> >lie! Certainly, given Mr. Belling's "performace" in a.r., all _he_ seems
> >able to do is lie! 
> >
> >> This is where we see the breakdown of "revisionism." When you are
> >> losing the debate you claim all the evidence is a lie and all is
> >> forged. Then you run away.
> >
> >...To come back (under a different nym) and lie another day! Oh, such
> >"brave" Nazis these deniers are!
> >
> >> > What I/WE want to see is absolute forensic evidence, just like in 
> >> > any other murder cases.  I am not interested in your survivors tales 
> >> > and eyewitness testimony and accusations galore.  I seek and expect 
> >> > proof.
> >> >
> >> 
> >> Define proof. Define exactly the "evidence" that you would call
> >> evidence.
> >
> >To what end, Mr. Curtis? Surely, by now you realize that Holocaust deniers
> >haven't the _slightest_ interest in things like proof, or Truth, or the
> >historical record? Certainly they have no interest in open and honest
> >debate....
> >
> 
> I want to show the readers here that _nothing_ will be found
> acceptable. Whenever we get to this point, that is usually where it
> all ends up before they run away.

And come back (under a different nym) and lie another day! Oh, such
"brave" Nazis these deniers are!

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 14:50:42 PST 1997
Article: 90415 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 02:09:55 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 240
Message-ID: 
References: <32ca14fa.994988@news.inetport.com> <5abu8v$hlr@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5abu8v$hlr@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>   
>   posted/emailed
>   
>   In article <32d79162.7017982@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:
>   
>   rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
> UH, huh.....Testimony from Hoess...a man who lied as a result of
> vicious beatings,
> torture and threats to his family.  NOT CREDIBLE.
>  
>  The shoe falls. Blackmore is officially a true denier. His earlier
>  claims of having an open mind are no longer to be believed. It is
>  pretty clear that no matter what history really was, that this
>  individual is lost to it in the world of distrust and conspiracy. It
>  interrogation at Nuremberg. 
> 
> Mr. Curtis. according to Ho"ss in his memoirs, he _was_ beaten when he was
> initially taken into custody by the British on March 11, 1946:
> 
>   
>   I am aware of Höss claim. I was alluding to preinterrogation torture
>   at Nuremberg. I know of no torture to get information out of Höss at
>   Nuremberg. I even have copies of the typed transcripts of this
>   testimony which isn't in _Death Dealer_. 
>   
> 
> COMMENT:  I am not impressed by this argument.  

That comes hardly as a suprise as Mr. Belling seems to be impressed by
nothing except his own anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologia! 

> At this point Hoess was already a broken man, and he simply said what 
> he knew they wanted to hear.  

Does a "broken man" describe his imprisonment at Nuremberg as "like
staying in a health spa" where the prison conditions were "very good in
every aspect?" 

I think not. 

> besides, after Nuremberg, he was immediately  shipped on to Poland, 

Ho"ss spent about a month at Nuremberg before being extradited to stand
trial in Poland. 

> ...and we shall never know how they treated him there, but 
> I can wager a good guess....

Indeed one _can_ make a good guess:

"I have to openly confess I never would have expected to be treated so
decently and so kindly in a Polish prison as I have been since the
intervention of the prosecutor's office." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.181.) 

> I do not believe much of anything hoess has to say  on the subject.--rb

That comes hardly as a suprise as Mr. Belling seems to be impressed by
nothing except his own anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologia! 

> "I was treated terribly by the [British] Field Security Police....During
> the first interogation they beat me to obtain evidence. I do not know what
> was in the transcript, or what I said, even though I signed it. because
> they gave me liquor and beat me with a whip." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_,
> p.179.) 
> 
> Interestingly, even though Ho"ss remembers nothing about what he said
> then, the details do _not_ "differ in any great degree from the section
> entitled, 'The FInal Solution in KL Auschwitz.' The later section,
> however, does contain more detail than the origional forced statement to
> the British interrogators."  (cf. Ibid. p.20.) 
> 
>   
> correlation between torture and interrogations. 
>
> There doesn't appear to be any associated with the Nuremberg testimony
and interrogation or the Polish trial and writings.
> 
> As I said, at Nuremberg he was already a broklen man who simply said
what they > wanted him to say, much as Von Paulus.  At Poland, he was
undoubtedly 
> subjected to further beatings and torture.--rb

Then perhaps Mr. Belling will inform the audience of any actual evidence
indicating that Ho"ss's testimonies at Nuremberg and Poland were extracted
by "further beatings and torture?" 

> >  Then we have the Nuremberg material.
> >  
> >  >All Holocaust deniers, most especially Mr. Belling, have done is made ad
> >  >hominem attacks in this regard and offered nothing but unsupported
> >  >accusations of fould play as evidence that Ho"ss's memoir was scripted by
> >  >the "Communists" for him.
> 
> COMMENT:  We already have more than enough evidence of foul play.  

No. What we have here is Mr. Belling making specious and unsupported
_accusations_ of "foul play." A rather different thing, I'm afraid. 

> It does not take a great stretch of imagination to assume that such treatment 
> continued, whether or not Hoess admits he was treated like a king.--a rodney 
> king, of course.--rb

Apparantly Mr. Belling considers the machinations of his (all too
frequently) stretched  _imagination_ as _evidence_! Considering the
_actual_ evidence in regard to Ho"ss, this would seem to indicate that Mr.
Belling is delusional in every sense of the word:

delusion n. 1 a deluding or being deluded 2 a false belief or opinion 
3 _Psychiatry_ a false, persistant belief maintained in spite of evidence 
to the contrary - delusional adj.

> >  >> Neither of these have yet to provide historically acceptable evidence
> >  >> that Eichmann's testimony as to details was physically gained via
> >  >> violence. In fact the Israeli's took much care to treat this criminal
> >  >> with much care so as not to provide anti_semites with any excuse to
> >  >> make the unfounded charges this Blackmore nym has just done.
> >  >
> >  >Alas, it is rather apparent that anti-Semites and Nazi apologists, such as
> >  >the likes of Mr. Belling, need no excuses to make unfounded charges! They
> >  >will say _anything_, no matter how false or puerile, to feed their twisted
> >  >imaginations and to white-wash their cult of Nazism.  
> >  >
> COMMENT:  These remarks of yours are quite unnecessary and hitting way
> below the belt, as you know.  

Obviously, Mr. Belling is stung by the truth! 

> ...it has been a thorn in your side that NONE of you can justifiably
call me an anti-Semite or a hater. 

On the contrary, Mr. Belling's anti-Semtic and hateful posts easily
justify calling him a anti-Semite and a hater!

> You find it convenient to attach the tag, as you must, because you are losing 
> many of the arguments.

On the contrary! I find it convienant to call a spade a spade! Or an
anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist an anti-Semitic lying scumbag
Nazi apologist. 

> This accusation of yours falls flat on its face because it is untrue. 

On the contrary! Mr. Belling's own words flatly condrict his protests!

> I realize it is more difficult to deal with the issues.  

Which is why, evidently, Mr. Belling constantly avoids doing so!

>...it is so much easier to try and dismiss a persons arguments by
slandering them and calling them names.  

Which is why, evidently, Mr. Belling constantly does so!

> Sad, but this is apparently how you operate.--rb

Mr. Belling, unable to defend his puerile and dishonest activities,
projects his modus operandi onto others! 

> >  They know lies and distortions are cheap.
> >  
> >  >> >The last group:  Survivors...so many lies and hysterical
imaginings all 
> >  >>> packed with inconsistencies and contradictions: 90% of them NOT 
> >  >> CREDIBLE.
> >  >> 
> >
> >  >Indeed! It _does_ certainly appear that all Holocaust deniers can do is
> >  >lie! Certainly, given Mr. Belling's "performace" in a.r., all _he_ seems
> >  >able to do is lie! 
> 
> COMMENT:  Of course you are lying when you write this.--rb

One need only to peruse DejaNews to see the absurdity of Mr. Belling's claim! 

> >  >> This is where we see the breakdown of "revisionism." When you are
> >  >> losing the debate you claim all the evidence is a lie and all is
> >  >> forged. Then you run away.
> >  >
> >  >...To come back (under a different nym) and lie another day! Oh, such
> >  >"brave" Nazis these deniers are!
> >  >
> >  >> > What I/WE want to see is absolute forensic evidence, just like in 
> >  >> > any other murder cases.  I am not interested in your survivors tales 
> >  >> > and eyewitness testimony and accusations galore.  I seek and expect 
> >  >> >proof.
> >  >> >
> >  >> 
> >  >> Define proof. Define exactly the "evidence" that you would call
> >  >> evidence.
> >  >
> >  >To what end, Mr. Curtis? Surely, by now you realize that Holocaust deniers
> >  >haven't the _slightest_ interest in things like proof, or Truth, or the
> >  >historical record? Certainly they have no interest in open and honest
> >  >debate....
> >  >
> >  
> >  I want to show the readers here that _nothing_ will be found
> >  acceptable. Whenever we get to this point, that is usually where it
> >  all ends up before they run away.
> 
> I have already indicated that I will regard the autopsy reports allegedly
> conducted on Dachau inmates as an acceptable piece of evidence, along
> with the results of the toxicological exam...where are they? Instead of 
> providing the evidence I asked for and was promised by your associate, 
> Van Alstine, you choose to reply with an evasion.  So be it.  It will not go 
> unnoticed.--rb

As I (and others) have already stated, Dr. Larson's report is to be found
in the Congressional Record. As I have also I will look at the
Congressional Record the next time I am at the U.C. Berkely library and
provide a complete citation of this that includes the exact page numbers
of the report. Mr. Belling is always free to look in the Congressional
Record for himself if he is getting impatient.

Will he? Evidently not. That too does not go unnoticed. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 15:18:12 PST 1997
Article: 90417 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 02:29:15 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References:  <5ac3cu$pf9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5ac3cu$pf9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>   wrote:
>   
>    fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) writes:
>   
>    [Alleged antisemitic excerpt from Hitler's "Mein Kampf"]
>    
>    # Strangely accurate, seeing that the words were written
>    # in 1922.
>    
>    So, nazi-boy, if your hero was so smart, how come he ended
>    with a bullet in his head, his country in ruins, and your
>    beloved Grese dangling from a rope?
>   
>   A "bad hair" day?
> 
> COMMENT:
> 
>  Why did Christ die on a cross?

If Mr. Belling is truly interested in this, I would suggest he direct this
question to , as it is off-topic to
alt.revisionism.

>  Why did Jews die who had confessed to committing ritual murders?

If Mr. Belling is truly interested in this, I would suggest he direct this
question to , as it is off-topic to alt.revisionism.

>  Why was the Jewish Prime Minister assassinated by one of his own people?

If Mr. Belling is truly interested in this, I would suggest he direct this
question to , as it is off-topic to
alt.revisionism.

>  As usual, your questions are trivial and irrelevant.--

As usual, Mr. Belling, is off-topic. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 15:18:12 PST 1997
Article: 90420 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A message from jbelling
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 02:42:52 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 67
Message-ID: 
References:  <5abpk4$f0p@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5abpk4$f0p@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <19961228140400.JAA10399@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >  fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
> >  
> >  > No, I didn't. You are having serious problems figuring out who
> >  > said what. I may have been involved in the thread, but I did not
> >  > write the words to which you were replying. Do try to figure out
> >  > to whose mail you are replying.
> >  > 
> >  > And yes, you are an asshole.
> >  > 
> >  > 
> >  > Well, it takes one to know one.--
> >  
> >  Er, no. One does not need to be one to simply recognize that _you_, Mr.
> >  Belling, are indeed one! 
> >  
> >  For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
> >  Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
> >  please visit:
> >  
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
> >  
> >  
> >  Mark
> >  
> > 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and
evil passes 
> >  not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
> >  right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
> >  
> >  -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
> > 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  
> >>>>
> Mark, try to control your anal compulsions.

More apropos would that Mr. Belling control _his_ anal compulsions by
holding his tongue!

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 16:38:44 PST 1997
Article: 90424 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 03:02:37 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 91
Message-ID: 
References:  <5abpit$f0p@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5abpit$f0p@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <19961228142000.JAA10614@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>   fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
> 
> 
>  You really are a silly fool Mark.  Ladies and gentlemen--meet Mark Van
>  Alstine, who relies on old legends and hate filled old wives tales
>  repeated both during and right after the war in order to bolster his
>  sinking Holocrap ship.  He ignores all current new evidence, as he must,
>  as it refutes every lie he reiterates with a blank face.  He is sinking
>  with his precious ship of fools and worthless, lying witnesses.  Soon he
>  will be out of a profession.
>   
>   Actually folks, meet Mr. Belling, the anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi
>   apologist. He's now playing at being a "brave" Nazi by coming back to lie
>   another day (with a new nym) after first running hastily away....
> 
> COMMENT:
> 
> Actually, Mark, No.  What you call "running away" was simply a disruption in 
> my service.  

So says a proven lair. 

> As to your post, the pathology report you posted is a fraud, as is made clear 
> by Clay's admission.  

Evidently Mr. Belling asserts, without a shred of evidence, that Major
Cares, the Chief of Pathology at the U.S. Army's Seventh Medical
Laboratory sent a fraudlent report, dated May 25, 1945, to the commanding
general of the Third U.S. Army concerning the identification of tattoed
skin hides taken from Buchenwald. 

Evidently, when faced with the forensic evidence that refutes the
"evidence" of Mr. Belling's over-stretched imagination, he retreats to
banal and absurd accusations of fraud.

> It is only one little fraud among many, 

Yes, Mr. Belling's banal and absurd accusations are "only one little
fraud" among his many.

> ...yet they all add up to one big FRAUD, which people like you try to keep 
> perpetuating.

On the contrary. By adding up Mr. Belling's frauds, thereby exposing him
as a big fraud himself, it is hoped that Mr. Belling's perpetuation of
lies and Nazi apologia will be exposed as such.

> There never were lampshades or any other items made of human skin.  

Evidently, when faced with the forensic evidence that refutes the
"evidence" of Mr. Belling's stretched imagination, he retreats to Because
I Say So! 

> There never were any shrunken heads of inmates.  

Evidently, when faced with the forensic evidence that refutes the
"evidence" of Mr. Belling's stretched imagination, he retreats to Because
I Say So! 

> Speaking of shrunken heads, have you looked in the mirror lately?  
> Yours appears to be shrinking fast.  All that will be left of you is 
> a talking ass......

Evidently, when Mr. Belling's lies and absurdities are once again exposed
for such, he retreats to boorish insults.

Pathetic. But then what else should one expect from a  anti-Semitic lying
Scumbag Nazi apologist? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 16:38:45 PST 1997
Article: 90433 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Correcting Giwer's and Blackmore's scientific ignorance
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 03:20:30 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 78
Message-ID: 
References:  <5abq32$f0p@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5abq32$f0p@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <19961228150200.KAA11340@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>   fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
>   
>    We tend to forget that the SS camp had a clean supply of water. Maybe
>    we should speculate from where that tank was filled? 
>    
> >  > 
> >  > Mike Curtis 
>    
>    There were far less SS guards at belsen than there were prisoners.  Say
>    there was a sudden water disaster at Folsom...do you think the guards
> >  > would share theri water with the convicts?
>   
> >  I would _expect_ the prison authorities, being basically decent people*,
> >  to immediately rectify the problem and, in the interem, truck in water for
> >  the inmates.
> 
> That depends on the state of emergency.--rb
>   
> >  Sadly, one cannot say the same for Kramer and the SS at Bergen-Belsen, as
> >  they _weren't_ decent people -as was evidenced by their actions (and
> >  inactions) towards the inmates there. 
> 
> That view is totally false, and, ultimately untenable to any non-biased
person.--rb

So says an anti-Semtic lying scumbag Nazi apologist. How convincing. 
  
> >  *Not to mention that the prison authorities, being public employees are
> >  subject to the California Government Code 844(d), which states:
> >  
> >  "Nothing in this section exonerates a public employee from liability for
> >  injury proximately caused by his negligent or wrongful act or
> >  omission...."
> 
> 
> Yes, Germany had similar codes, as did the SS.--rblackmore 

And yet Kremer, putting aside the torture nd mistreatment etc he allowed
to take place, let thousands die from (at best) neglect. 

> >  ...And given that the Californiai Penal Code, section 2600, states that: 
> >  
> >  "A person sentenced to imprisonment in a state prison may
> >  during that period of confinement be deprived of such rights, and
> >  only such rights, as is reasonably related to legitimate penological
> >  interests...."
> 
> Ditto.--rb

And yet Kremer, putting aside the torture nd mistreatment etc he allowed
to take place, let thousands die from (at best) neglect. 

> >  
> >  ...That it is absurd to consider that the _denial_ of such a _basic_
> >  neccessity to life as water to imnates by prison authorities could
> >  possibly be deemed as a "legitimate penological interest" -not to mention
> >  an arguable  breach of said inmates' Constitutional protection against
> >  "cruel and unusual punishments."
> 
> That's nice, Mark.  Now, allow the Germans the same latitude as you allow
> Californians.--rblackmore

I do, Mr. Belling. That is why, for instance I find Kramer's conviction
and sentance more than justified.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 17:11:06 PST 1997
Article: 90440 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Confused About the Purpose of This Newsgroup
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 19:30:27 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:41729 alt.politics.white-power:54341 alt.revisionism:90440

In article <32C6CDA3.76F7@cais.com>, Mark Raven  wrote:

> AmaznBeast wrote:
> > 
> > I  question  what the purpose of this newsgroup is... It just seems to
be juvenile
> > and pointless to have a whole newsgroup devoted to complaining.
> 
> Ken, another Saturday night and you couldn't get a date?
> 
> To any who really wonder, the purpose of this newsgroup is so that 
> paranoid Hebrews may have a place to congratulate one another.

Darn! And here I thought it was where anti-Semites, Nazi apologists,
Holocaust deniers, and white-power rangers came to get abused! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 17:11:07 PST 1997
Article: 90442 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!EU.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Duty
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 19:55:08 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References: <32C3CBF5.6AB5@rio.com> <32c45738.0@cheech.primary.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
Timothy Haller  wrote:

> On 27 Dec 1996, Alex Vange wrote:
> >    The Germans were fighting against the real evil which was communism. 
> > And communism was Jewish. Jews control the media today. The Bible says 
> > Jews are liars. This is what Jesus told the Jews, John 8:44 "Ye are of 
> > your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a 
> > murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is 
> > no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he 
> > is a liar, and the father of it." This is what Hitler wrote about the 
> > Jews in Mein Kampf "One of the greatest thinkers that mankind has 
> > produced has branded the Jews for all time with a statement which is 
> > profoundly and exactly true. He (Schopenhauer) called the Jew "The Great 
> > Master of Lies". Those who do not realize the truth of that statement, or 
> > do not wish to believe it, will never be able to lend a hand in helping 
> > Truth to prevail."
> 
> I see you are a christian identity white power ranger type? your kind of
> christanty makes me want to throw up, you are a sicko  

I can sympathize. Really. Those little "christian-identity" puke bags are
located on the back of the seat in front of you....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 17:11:08 PST 1997
Article: 90444 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 03:14:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 248
Message-ID: 
References:  <5abt9g$hlr@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5abt9g$hlr@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <5a617e$job@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>       ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) writes:
>      d.A. commented on the Auschwitz National Museum:
>     
> 
> 
>   And what exactly, Mr. Belling, is not credible about Ho"ss's testimonies
>   and memoirs? What were these "vicious beatings, torture and threats to his
>   family," and when did they take place?
> 
> COMMENT:  His whole testimony is a fabrication, based upon torture and
intimidation.--rb

And yet Mr. Belling, for some reason, cannot demonstrate that Ho"ss's
testimony at either Kaltenbrunner's trial _or_ his own trial in Poland was
"based upon torture and intimidation." Instead he simply makes unsupported
and puerile claims that they were. 

>   And what, exactly, Mr. Belling, is not credible about Eichmann's
>   testimony? You imply that the Mossad threatened his wife and family if he
>   did not "co-operate." What evidence do you have of this, Mr. Belling? 
> 
> COMMENT:  It is my opinion, based upon reason and the circumstances, as
> well as the behavior of the Mossad, which beats captives to death with
baseball bats.  Eichmann, however, they needed alive, to say what they
wanted him to say.
> It doesn't take a genius to figure out how and why they wanted a
confession from Eichmann.-rb

Again Mr. Belling, for some reason, cannot demonstrate that Eichmann's
testimony prior to and at his trial in Israel was "based upon torture and
intimidation." Instead he simply makes unsupported and puerile claims that
they were. 

>   ....The last group:  Survivors...so many lies and hysterical imaginings all 
>   packed with inconsistencies and contradictions: 90% of them NOT CREDIBLE. 
>   
>   Mr. Belling, please enumrate and substantiate that 90 percent of survivor
>   testimony was " many lies and hysterical imaginings all packed with
>   inconsistencies and contradictions."
> 
> COMMENT:  Funny you should ask.  This is an on-going process on alt
revisionism.--rb

Mr. Belling, true to form, for some reason cannot demonstrate that 90
percent of survivor testimony consisted of "many lies and hysterical
imaginings all packed with inconsistencies and contradictions." Yet he
simply makes unsupported and puerile claims that they were.

>    What I/WE want to see is absolute forensic evidence, just like in any
other 
>    murder cases.  
>   
>   Who is "we," Mr. Belling? And please subtantiate your implication that
>   _all_ murder cases are supported by "absolute forensic evidence."
> 
> COMMENT:  Me, myself, and I.--rb

Is Mr. Belling now catering to the apparant denier habit of speaking of
himself in the third person? Should this be taken as a sign of his
ongpoing mental degenratation to a Moranic(tm) level of intellectual
paucity? Considering the content of Mr. Belling's anti-Semitic lying
scumbag Nazi apologia of late, apparantly so....

> >  > I am not interested in your survivors tales and eyewitness testimony and 
> >  > accusations galore.  I seek and expect proof.
> >  
> >  No, Mr. Belling, you do not. You simply parrot the lies and malicious
> >  innuendo of other Holocaust deniers in addition to your own peurile
> >  fabrications. In fact, you seem to go to great pains and mental gymnastics
> >  to rationalize your continuous _exlusion_ of any actual proof of Nazi mass
> >  murder. 
> >  
> >  > I know it is too much to ask.  It is so much easier simply to believe 
> >  > lies.--rb
> >  
> >  Indeed, Mr. Belling! You are a prime example of what intellectual laziness
> >  and immorality in service of one's bogotry and hatred brings one to:
> >  anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologia. 
> >  
> >  > >  But sending Jews there to beome victims *was* the result of
> >  > >  "someone's vivid imagination", namely that of the son of an
> >  > >  Austrian customs official. Of course he did not initially
> >  > >  have Auschwitz in mind as the location for such victimisation,
> >  > >  but some people are flexible.
> >  > 
> >  > What on earth are you referring to?--rb
> >  
> >  Not _what_, Mr. Belling, but _who_. That who, of course, was none other
> >  than your draft-dodging and comrade-abandoning hero Adolf Hilter. 
> 
> 
> COMMENT:  Gosh, that's funny.....I always thought that Hitler enlisted
> in the German army and was highly decorated for bravery under fire.  

Mr. Belling, I  didn't know _I_ needed to explain why _your_ hero, after
draft dodging for a few years, was finally snared by the Army. Only
_after_ did he petition to serve in a Bavarian unit. (First Company of the
16th Bavarian Reserve Infrantry Regiment.) 

Only _after_ was your hero awarded the Iron Cross, Second Class, in
December 1914 and the Iron Cross, First Class, in August 1918. I would
have thought, _you'd_ have liked to tell _that_ story....  

However, that doesn't change the fact that Hitler was a draft dodger or
the first to tuck tail and run, leaving his wounded and dead comrades
lying in the street in Munich.

> DO correct me if I am in error, Mark.--rb

To whit, a revealing anecdote regarding Mr. Belling's hero, Hitler:

"Since 1910, when he was twenty-one, he [Hitler] had been subject to
military servive. According to Heiden the Austrian authorities could not
put their finger on him while he was in Vienna. They finally located him
in Munich and ordered him to to report for examination in Linz. Josef
Greiner, in his _Das Ende des Hitler-Mythos_, publishes some of the
corrospondance between Hitler and the Austrian military authorities in
which Hitler denies he went to Germany to avoid Austrian military service.
On the ground that he lacked funds, he requested to be allowed to take his
examination in Salzburg because of its nearness to Munich. He was examined
there on February 5, 1914, and found unfit for military or even auxiliary
service on account of poor health- apparently he still had a lung ailment.
His failure to report for miitary service until the authorities finally
located him at the age of twenty-four confirms the story that was current
in anti-Nazi circles when I was in Berlin that when the German troops
occupied Austria in 1938 Hitler ordered the Gestapo to find the official
papers relating to his military service. The records in Linz were searched
in vain- to Hitler's mounting fury. They had been removed by a member of
the local government, who, after the war, showed them to Greiner."
(Shirer, _The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich_, p.49fn.)

And one regarding Mr. Belling's heroes, Hitler and his pack of Nazi
lackies, and their maladroit "Beer Hall Putsch:"

"A few hundred yards north of the beer cellar the rebels met their first
obsticle. On the Ludwig Bridge, which leads over the River Isar toward the
center of the city, stood a detachment of armed police barring the route.
Goering sprang forward and, addressing the police commander, threatened to
shoot a number of hostages he said he had in the rear of his column if the
police fired on his men. During the night Hess and others had rounded up a
number of hostages, including two cabinet members, for such a contingency.
Whether Goering was bluffing or not, the police commander apparently
believed he was not and let the column file over the bridge unmolested. 

"At the Marienplatz the Nazi column encountered a large crowd which was
listening to an exhortation of Julius Streicher, the jew-baiter from
Nuremberg, who had rushed to Munich at the first news of the putsch. Not
wishing to be left out of the revolution, he cut short his speech and
joined the rebels, jumping into step immediately behind Hitler.

"Shortly after noon the marchers neared their objective, the War Ministry,
where Roehm and his storm troopers were surrounded by soldiers of the
Reichswehr. Neither besiegers nor the besieged had yet fired a shot. Roehm
and his men were all ex-soldiers and they had many war-time comrades on
the other side of the barbed wire. Neither side had any heart for killing.

"To reach the War Ministry and free Roehm, Hitler and Ludendorff now led
their column through the narrow Residenstrasse, which, just beyond the
Feldherrnhalle opens out into the spacious Odeonsplatz. At the end of the
gullylike street a detachment of police about one hundred strong, armed
with carbines, blocked the way. They were in a strategic spot and this
time they did not give way.

"But once again the Nazis tried to talk their way through. One of them,
the faithful bidyguard Ulrich Graf, stepped forward and cried out to the
police officer in charge, 'Don't shoot! His Excellency Ludendorff is
coming!' Even at this crucial, perilous moment, a German revolutionary,
even an old amateur wresteler and professional bouncer, remembered to give
a gentleman his proper title. Hitler added another cry. "Surrender!
Surrender!" he called out. But the unkown police officer did not
surrender. Apparently Ludendorff's name had no magic sound for him; this
was the police, not the Army.

"Which side fired first was never established. Each put the blame on the
other. One onlooker later testified that Hitler fired the first shot with
his revolver. Another thought that Streicher did, and more than one Nazi
later told this author that it was this deed which, more than any other,
endeared him so long to Hitler.

"At any rate a shot was fired and in the next instant a volley of shots
rang out from both sides, spelling in that instant the doom of Hitler's
hopes. Scheubner-Richter fell, mortally wounded. Goering went down with a
serious wound in his thigh. Within sixty seconds the firing stoppe, but
the street was already littered with fallen bodies- sixteen Nazis and
three police dead or dying, many more wounded and the rest, including
Hitler, clutching the pavement to save their lives. 

"There was one exception, and had his example been followed, the day might
have had a different ending. Ludendorff did not fling himself to the
ground. Standing erect and proud in the best soldierly tradition, with his
adjutant, Major Streck, at his side, he marched calmly on between the
muzzles of the police rifles until he reached the Odenplatz. He must have
seemed a lonely and bizzarre figure. Not one Nazi followed him. Not even
the supreme leader, Adolf Hitler.

"The future Chancellor of the Third Reich was the first to scamper to
safety. He had locked his left arm with the right arm of Sceubner-Richter
( a curious but perhaps revelaing gesture) as the column approached the
police cordon, and when the latter fell he pulled Hitler down to the
pavementwith him. Perhaps Hilter thought he had been wounded; he suffered
a sharp pain which, it was found later, came from a dislocated shoulder.
But the fact remains that according to the testimony of one of his own
Nazi followers in the column, the physician Dr. Walther Schulz, which was
supported by several other witnesses, Hitler 'was the first to get up and
turn back,' leaving his dead and wounded comrades lying in the street. He
was hustled into a waiting motorcar and spirited off to the country home
of the Hanfstaengls at Uffing, where Putzi's wife and sister nursed him
and where, two days later, he was arrested.

"Ludendorff was arrested on the spot. He was contemptuous of the rebels
who had not the courage to march on with him, and so bitter against the
Army for not coming over to his side that he declared henceforth he would
not recognize a German officer nor ever again wear an officer's uniform.
The wounded Goering was given first aid by the Jewish proprietor of a
nearby bank into which he had been carried and then smuggled across the
frontier into Austria by his wife and taken to a hospital in Innsbruck.
Hess also fled to Austria. Roehm surrendered at the War Ministry two hours
after the collapse before the Feldherrnhalle. Within a few days all the
rebel leaders except Goering and Hess were rounded up and jailed. The Nazi
putsch had ended in a fiasco. The party was dissolved. National Socialism,
to all appearances, was dead. Its dictatorial leader, who had run away at
the first hail of bullets, seemed utterly discredited, meteoric political
career at an end." (Ibid. pp.111-114.) 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 19:33:40 PST 1997
Article: 90461 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.erols.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Criminal Giwer Starts to See the Light
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:29:39 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 63
Message-ID: 
References: <32c22235.138646353@news.gte.net> <5a2ekn$j98@news.enter.net> <32c60463.416377620@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c60463.416377620@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On 28 Dec 1996 06:27:35 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
> >>   the Criminal Giwer fools himself:
> >>  On 25 Dec 1996 02:08:35 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> >>  >   The Criminal Giwer having criminally harassed me and my family and 
> >>  >lied about consistently, asks for "forgiveness."
> >
> >>  >   Sorry, criminal, when has there even been an apology.
> >               
> >>      Still harrassing GTE?
> >
> >       No.  I'm still putting them on notice of your criminal
activities and your 
> >activities and your violations of the user agreement you signed with them.
> 
> Just like a kike to silence others by trumped-up false charges.  
> 
> >       Are you still sending anonymus hate mail to enter.net.
> >       
> >>      When are they going to contact me?  
> >  
> >>      I really do want to have that conversation.  
> >
> >       No.  You don't.  You are just fooling yourself.
> >
> >
> >       --YFE
> 
> The gutless criminal shyster blows more hot air. 

The craven Nazi shit, Mr. Smith, breaks wind once again.

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r
 
"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  1 19:33:40 PST 1997
Article: 90469 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.erols.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The human skin nonsense
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:33:36 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 67
Message-ID: 
References: <32c1e472.122835643@news.gte.net>  <32c94724.3007638@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c94724.3007638@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> >The artifacts made from human skin were discovered in 
> >Buchenwald. A pathology report confirming this is
> >often posted here. They are also mentioned in an
> >official SS communication; see
> >
> >http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images/
> >buchenwald-doc04.gif
> >
> >And
> >
> >http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images/
> >buchenwald02.jpg
> >
> >It is apparent that even some of the SS thought that these
> >kinds of things are going too far, because a letter to
> >the Buchenwald Pathology Department asks that the manufacturing
> >of shrunken heads etc. will stop.
> >
> >See 
> >
> >http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images/
> >buchenwald-doc01.gif
> >
> >And
> >
> >http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images/
> >shrunken.jpg
> >
> >
> >-Danny Keren.
> Speaking of "shrunken heads".

Indeed! Has the Moran(tm) tried pulling _his_ out from his butt lately?  

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jan  2 05:45:43 PST 1997
Article: 90548 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 14:10:44 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References: <32CAAEF0.486A@ibm.net> <5afu8g$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5afu8g$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   Gord McFee  writes:
> 
> 
> >  > 
> >  > He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
> >  > witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
> >  > substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.
> >  
> >  That's his game and that is the game all of them play.  It's the same
> >  approach that has them refuse the testimony of *every* witness, unless
> >  the witness happens to support the denier point of view.
> >  
> >  Don't forget, Grese and every other SS person was tortured beyond words
> >  until they would say anything that the evil Allies wanted.  This
> >  happened both after and during the war.
> >  
> >  --
> >  Gord McFee
> >  I'll write no line before its time
> >  
> >>>>Comment:  I will simply state that I am not playing a game.  I will state
> that none of the defendants at the Belsen Trial were given a fair trial.  

Mr. Belling's tirade of Nazi apologia, once again thwarted by the
historical record, stamps his little feet and howls "NOT FAIR! THE TRIAL
WASN'T FAIR!" 

And why, according to Mr. Belling, wasn't the trial fair? Because Mr.
Belling says so. How droll. As if the opinion of an anti-Semitic lying
scumbag Nazi apoligist mattered. 

[Mr. Belling's infantile ranting snipped]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jan  2 16:47:20 PST 1997
Article: 90624 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 03:43:20 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 82
Message-ID: 
References:  <5afvg9$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5afvg9$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <5ac3cu$pf9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>    In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>    wrote:
>   
>     fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) writes:
>   
>    [Alleged antisemitic excerpt from Hitler's "Mein Kampf"]
>     
>     # Strangely accurate, seeing that the words were written
>    # in 1922.
>    
>     So, nazi-boy, if your hero was so smart, how come he ended
>     with a bullet in his head, his country in ruins, and your
>     beloved Grese dangling from a rope?
>    
>    A "bad hair" day?
>  
>  COMMENT:
>  
>   Why did Christ die on a cross?
>  
>   If Mr. Belling is truly interested in this, I would suggest he direct this
>   question to , as it is off-topic to
>   alt.revisionism.
> >  
> >  >  Why did Jews die who had confessed to committing ritual murders?
> >  
> >  If Mr. Belling is truly interested in this, I would suggest he direct this
> >  question to , as it is off-topic to alt.revisionism.
> >  
> >  >  Why was the Jewish Prime Minister assassinated by one of his own people?
> >  
> >  If Mr. Belling is truly interested in this, I would suggest he direct this
> >  question to , as it is off-topic to
> >  alt.revisionism.
> >  
> >  >  As usual, your questions are trivial and irrelevant.--
> >  
> >  As usual, Mr. Belling, is off-topic. 
> 
> COMMENT:  As usual you fail to address the issues you yourself raised.
> Talk about snivelling cowardice!--rb

And when did I "raise issues" in regard to whether Christ die on a cross
or not, Mr. Belling? Or your "Jewish ritual murder" hoax? Or the
assassination of the Israeli Prime Minister? 

I didn't, of course. You did, Mr. Belling. I simply pointed out that if
you had an actual honest interest in answers to these questions that you
direct your questions to the proper forumn. 

Of course Mr. Belling, being an anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist,
was obviously merely trying to denigrate Jews.

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jan  2 19:00:22 PST 1997
Article: 90640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 03:10:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 159
Message-ID: 
References:  <5ag90a$2r@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5ag90a$2r@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> SNIP
> 
> COMMENT:  I took the liberty of snipping your irrelevant propaganda lifted
> from the Danuta Czech book save for the example below:

Unsuprising, Mr. Belling, as you, after all, have a predilection to
"ignoring" what you cannot refute.

>   Given, for example, that it took _six_ days between (July 18 to July, 24,
>   1940) the time SS Major General Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski ordered the
>   execution of cilivian workers in connection to the escape of Tadeusz
>   Wiejowski, and when Ho"ss recieved written confirmation of Bach-Zelewski's
>   order, it would indeed appear that the immediate flogging of prisoners who
>   were _suspected_ of aiding Tadeusz Wiejowsk escape _was_ done without the
>   advance approval by "by authorities in Berlin." (cf. Ibid. pp.17,19,24.) 
> 
> COMMENT:  So happy you broought this subject up.  The fact is, none of the 
> people mentioned above were ever executed, as the execution was prohibited 
> by Berlin, even though Hoess wanted to have them executed.--rb

Indeed, Mr. Belling, I never claimed otherwise. The point of my
illustration was to show that it took _six_ days for Back-Zelewski's order
to Ho"ss to be confirmed in writing. Interestingly enough, Glu"cks reply
to halt the executions of the civilian workers took _fourteen_ days to
reach Ho"ss. (cf. Czech, _Auscwitz Chronicle_, p.23.) 

Yet the prisoners _were_ flogged on July 6 on the _suspicion_ of aiding
Tadeusz Wiejowksi escaped that very same day. Considering the delays as
evidenced by the letters from Bach-Zelewski and Glu"cks, it is obvious
that  no authorization for the floggings was given _or_ refused. In fact,
there is no evidence that _permission_ to flog the prisoners was even
_asked_ for. 

Further indication that the torture of prisoners was executed without
explicit case-by-case permission from Berlin can be seen in the following:

"August 1940 is marked by increasing terrorization of the prisoners by the
SS. Along with various kinds of harassment used by the SS men and Prisoner
Functionaries, regular camp punishments are introduced by the camp
administration. These are carried on the basis of a writtem punishment by
the SS men for a misdemeanor as soon as it is confirmed by the Commandant
or the Camp Commander. After the regularly imposed flogging and punishment
of being tied to a stake and assignment to a penal company are initiated
in August. At the introduction of these punishments, however, the
prisoners are neither informed of the effective camp order nor instructed
in the offenses against the normal regulations. In addition, the
obligation to run while working is introduced." (cf. Ibis. pp.22-23.) 

Of special note is the part about punishments being "carried on the basis
of a writtem punishment by the SS men for a misdemeanor as soon as it is
confirmed by the Commandant or the Camp Commander."

No request for authorization of punishments from Berlin. The matter is
_immediately_ decided by the "Commandant or the Camp Commander."

The exception to this rule, of course, was the execution of "hostages."
According to Ho"ss: "Most of the hostages had been in the camp for quite
some time. Neither they nor the camp administration knew they were
hostages. Suddenly a telegram would arrive from the Gestapo or from
Himmler stating, 'The following prisoners are to be shot or hanged as
hostages.' Compliance with this order had to be reported within a few
hours. The prisoners concerned were taken away from their work areas or
pulled out during roll call and brought to the detention block [Block 11].
Those who had been imprisoned for quite some time knew what this meant; at
least they had an idea of what was in store for them. I the detention
block they were informed of the order to execute them. At first, in 1940
and the early part of 1941, they were shot in the back of the neck. The
bedridden patients in the hospital infirmary [Block 10] were killed by
injection [phenol injection directly into the heart]." (Ho"ss, _Death
Dealer_, p.129.) 

Knowing full-well of Mr. Belling's allergic reaction to the mention of
Ho"ss's name (not to mention the historical record), and his inevitable
spastic cries that Ho"ss was tortured into writing his memoirs, the
following is educational in that it confirms what Ho"ss wrote:

"The first execution by shooting takes place in the camp. Those executed
are the 40 Poles Himmler selected from the four lists presented by the
local Stapo in retaliation for the alleged violence and assualt on police
officials in Kattowitz. Himmler orders the execution to be carried out
without the public's knowledge. The list of the condemmed is sent with
instructions of the SS Commander in Chief* on November 1 in the form of an
order through the Head of Sipo and SD in Berlin, Heydrich, to the Superior
SS and Police Commander in Breslau, von dem Bach-Zelewski. The latter
gives an additional order to the head of the Gestapo in Kattowitz, Senior
State Councillor Dr. Emmanuel Scha:fer. Because of the order to carry out
the execution in secret, the site of Auschwitz C.C. is selected. The
condemmed are admitted to Auschwitz on November 22 at 11:45 AM from the
Kripo headquarters in Kattowitz. The execution is performed at 12 0'clock;
it takes 20 minutes and is directed by SS First Lieutenant Karl Fritzsch,
the Camp Commander. SS Second Lieutenant Ta"ger is the commander of the
execution squad, consisting of 20 SS Men from the Auschwitz Death's Head
Guard Company. Two SS Men shot each of the condemned individually."
(Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.35; cf. APMO D-AuI-1/5, 6, 8-9, 10-13,
50-56, The Execution of November 22, 1940.) 

"*The SS Commander in Chief condemns eight Poles whose names are not given
on the list to life imprisonment in a Class III concentration camp."
(Ibid. p.35fn.) 

"168 prisoners are shot at the execution wall in the courtyard of Block
11. They belong to the group of painters, artists, and actors who were
arrested on April 16, 1942, in the Artists' Cafe in Krakow and sent to
Auschwitz on April 24 and 25. In the camp, they were given Nos.
32489-32586 and 33091-33190. The prisoners are taken to the courtyard four
at a time and shot. The Block Senior utters the following sentance: "For
the murder of the head of the Luftwaffe in Krakow, you are condemned to
death." Then they are killed with individual shots from a smal-caliber
weapon. Present at the execution are the Director of the Political
Department, Maximillian Grabner, Protective Custody Commander Hans
Aumeier, and the Labor Deployment Director, Heinrich Schwarz." (Ibid.,
p.171; cf. APMO, Ho"ss Trial, vol. 4, p. 80, Account of Former Prisoner
Tadeusz Wasowicz; D-Aul-3/1/3, Occupancy Register, pp. 410-416; Kret,*
"Penal Company," p.104. [168 executed].) 

"* Kret, who is housed at the time on the courtyard side of the bunker,
where the execution takes place, hears the words of the Block Senior, the
conversation of the SS officers, and with a fellow sufferer, counts the
number of shots fired." (cf. Ibid. p.171fn.) 

Of course, the above reprisals against hostages was clearly a war crime,
as such actions were strictly forbidden by Article 50 of the Hague
Convention (IV) to which Germany was a signatory. (cf. Reisman, _The Laws
of War_, p.233.) 

> BTW, I also took the liberty of excising the rest of your comments 
> as they were irrelevant and insipid.

Unsuprising, Mr. Belling, as after all, you being an anti-Semtic lying
scumbag Nazi apologist, have a predilection to "ignoring" what you cannot
refute. Or lie about. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jan  3 00:47:07 PST 1997
Article: 90657 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 03:34:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 53
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In article <5afviq$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>   
>   "The function of propaganda is, for example, not to wiegh and ponder the
>   rights of different people, but exclusively to emphasize the one right
>   which it has set out to argue for. Its task is not to make an objective
>   study of the truth, in so far as it favors the enemy, and then set it
>   before the masses with academic fairness; its task is to serve our own
>   right, always and unflinchingly." (Ibid. p.182.) 
>   
>   
>   This passage here seems to fit the denial groups (CODOH, etc.) to a
>   tee.
>   
>   
>   Mike Curtis 
>   E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>   Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>   
> >>>>
> COMMENT:  Can't you think of something original, instead of
> pilfering my ideas?--rb

Hmmm. Mr. Belling, seems to be having another personality "conflict." Last
time it he thought he was a 13 year-old girl and tried to solicit
Naziboys.

This time he seems to think he's Adolf Hitler. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jan  3 07:41:59 PST 1997
Article: 90684 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Do You Know, 'rblackmore' Lies Again (Re: Jewish m
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 03:45:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References:  <5acjpp$cdt@juliana.sprynet.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , Nele Abels
 wrote:

> On 1 Jan 1997 rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> [Daniel Keren quotes Baer]
> > >  full source: "I commanded only Camp I at Auschwitz. I had nothing
> > >  to do with the camps where the gassings took place. I had no
> > >  influence over them. It was in Camp II, at Birkenau, that the
> > >  gassings took place. That camp was not under my authority".
> 
> [Blackmore answered]
> > You are the liar. Baer said there were no gas chambers and he never saw 
> > them.  
> 
> "The gassings to place in Camp II". Does this mean "There were now gas 
> chambers". Is rlbackmore really so stupid or is he just a clumsy liar??

Mr. Abels, there is the distinct possibility, of course, that Mr. Belling
is a stupid _and_ clumsy liar....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jan  3 07:42:00 PST 1997
Article: 90717 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.iosphere.net!news.supernet.net!news.cyberport.com!news.good.net!news.good.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 05:00:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 141
Message-ID: 
References: <59muof$87q$5@gruvel.une.edu.au> <5a617e$job@juliana.sprynet.com> <32d79162.7017982@news.inetport.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d79162.7017982@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> >UH, huh.....Testimony from Hoess...a man who lied as a result of
vicious beatings,
> >torture and threats to his family.  NOT CREDIBLE.
> 
> The shoe falls. Blackmore is officially a true denier. His earlier
> claims of having an open mind are no longer to be believed. It is
> pretty clear that no matter what history really was, that this
> individual is lost to it in the world of distrust and conspiracy. It
> doesn't matter that he wasn't tortured at single bit prior to his
> interrogation at Nuremberg. 

Mr. Curtis. according to Ho"ss in his memoirs, he _was_ beaten when he was
initially taken into custody by the British on March 11, 1946:

"I was treated terribly by the [British] Field Security Police....During
the first interogation they beat me to obtain evidence. I do not know what
was in the transcript, or what I said, even though I signed it. because
they gave me liquor and beat me with a whip." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_,
p.179.) 

Interestingly, even though Ho"ss remembers nothing about what he said
then, the details do _not_ "differ in any great degree from the section
entitled, 'The FInal Solution in KL Auschwitz.' The later section,
however, does contain more detail than the origional forced statement to
the British interrogators."  (cf. Ibid. p.20.) 

Furthermore, according to Steven Paskuly, the editor of _Death Dealer_:

"...The documents written in Poland, the personal interviews given to
psychiatrist G. Martin Gilbert during the Nuremberg trials, and Rudolf
Ho"ss's blunt testimony during the trial itself are consistant with each
other to such a degree that we can safely believe that the memoirs written
in Poland are an elaboraration of the Nuremberg testimony containing much
more detail. The documents in _Death Dealer_ are consistent with other
statements made bvy SS Corporal Pery Broad and the Diary of SS Dr. Kremer,
who were also at Auschwitz, and with the personal accounts by prisoners in
the essential facts. They differ only when Ho"ss attempts to recall exact
dates and numbers of prisoners. They also differ when Ho"ss writes about
_his_ part in the Final Solution....Where Ho"ss does consciously lie is in
regard to his wife, Hedwig, and her knowledge of the mass killings, in
order to protect her and their children from the inevitable postwar stigma
and finger-pointing. This is evident by examining the statements made to
psychiatrist Gilbert in 1945 and his last statements in 1947...." (Ibid.
p.21.) 

> It doesn't matter that his testimony doesn't change between Nuremberg 
> and what he wrote in Poland. It doesn't matter to this historical fraud 
> pretending to be objective that Hoess lowered the death count in his 
> Polish writings from the 2.5 million Jewish murders he got from speaking 
> with Eichmann to the 1.3 million murders that seems to be holding up under 
> historical scrutiny. None of this matters to this individual. The whole 
> thing becomes not credible despite records, transport records, and disparate 
> testimony tying into this not credible testimony. The individual who is not
> credible is this Belling/Blackmore/Tutu101/something13/Ehrlich606.
> Neither of these have yet to provide historically acceptable evidence
> that Hoess's testimony as to details was physically gained via violence.

Rather, deniers have yet to provide historically acceptable evidence that
Hoess's intial forced statement to the British Field Security Police- in
which Ho"ss did _not_ recall what he said -was ever _used_ against him at
his trial in Poland. Neither have the deniers yet provided historically
acceptable evidence that Hoess's testimony at his Trial in Poland _or_ his
memoirs were coerced by the POlish authorities. 

All Holocaust deniers, most especially Mr. Belling, have done is made ad
hominem attacks in this regard and offered nothing but unsupported
accusations of fould play as evidence that Ho"ss's memoir was scripted by
the "Communists" for him. 

> >  Eichmann:  kidnapped from his home,
> 
> He was kidnapped while on his way home from work.
> 
> >drugged and smuggled out of the country...the Mossad had his address and
> >knew where his wife and children lived......who knows what those thugs said 
> >and did to Eichmann to get his "co-operation".....to "talk".  NOT 
> CREDIBLE.....
> 
> Neither of these have yet to provide historically acceptable evidence
> that Eichmann's testimony as to details was physically gained via
> violence. In fact the Israeli's took much care to treat this criminal
> with much care so as not to provide anti_semites with any excuse to
> make the unfounded charges this Blackmore nym has just done.

Alas, it is rather apparent that anti-Semites and Nazi apologists, such as
the likes of Mr. Belling, need no excuses to make unfounded charges! They
will say _anything_, no matter how false or puerile, to feed their twisted
imaginations and to white-wash their cult of Nazism.  

> >The last group:  Survivors...so many lies and hysterical imaginings all 
>> packed with inconsistencies and contradictions: 90% of them NOT CREDIBLE.
> 
> He we have the typical downfall of deniers. They think that
> inconsistent testimony makes everything not credible. All SS testimony
> was derived by torture. All is lies. 

Indeed! It _does_ certainly appear that all Holocaust deniers can do is
lie! Certainly, given Mr. Belling's "performace" in a.r., all _he_ seems
able to do is lie! 

> This is where we see the breakdown of "revisionism." When you are
> losing the debate you claim all the evidence is a lie and all is
> forged. Then you run away.

...To come back (under a different nym) and lie another day! Oh, such
"brave" Nazis these deniers are!

> > What I/WE want to see is absolute forensic evidence, just like in 
> > any other murder cases.  I am not interested in your survivors tales 
> > and eyewitness testimony and accusations galore.  I seek and expect proof.
> >
> 
> Define proof. Define exactly the "evidence" that you would call
> evidence.

To what end, Mr. Curtis? Surely, by now you realize that Holocaust deniers
haven't the _slightest_ interest in things like proof, or Truth, or the
historical record? Certainly they have no interest in open and honest
debate....


"It is to attempt seeing Truth without knowing Falsehood. 
 It is the attempt to see the Light without knowing Darkness. 
 It cannot be. "  -Frank Herbert, Dune 
 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jan  3 12:13:15 PST 1997
Article: 90782 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 23:09:35 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 136
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References: <32cdcb07.4359036@news.inetport.com> <5aiibd$lnh@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5aiibd$lnh@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>   rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>      mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>     In article <5a617e$job@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>    
>         ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) writes:
>        d.A. commented on the Auschwitz National Museum:
>       
>   
>   
>     And what exactly, Mr. Belling, is not credible about Ho"ss's testimonies
>     and memoirs? What were these "vicious beatings, torture and threats to his
>     family," and when did they take place?
>  
>   COMMENT:  His whole testimony is a fabrication, based upon torture and
intimidation.--rb

And where is Mr. Belling's evidence that this was indeed the case? What,
he doesn't have any? How unsuprising. Obviously, Mr. Belling's
"imagination," as well as his tongue, is running loose again.  

>   Actually, that IS all it is: a COMMENT. It's an opinion. It's an
>   unsubstantiated opinion. It's the hallmark of the dishonest and
>   cowardly to put forth such unsubstantiated opinions. Lies are cheap.
> 
> COMMENT:  And what do you have to say about the countless number of
> Jews who testified to the reality of Jewish Ritual Murder?  

I would venture to say that Mr. Belling is obsessed by unsubstantiated
reports of alleged Jewish ritual murder. 

[snip]

>  You distorted the circumstances and even made up circumstances.
> 
> COMMENT:  UNTRUE, and you know it.--rb

Unfortunately, it is all too true of Mr. Belling. And he knows it. 

[snip]

> Eichmann, however, they needed alive, to say what they wanted him to say.

And Mr. Belling's evidence that supports his oblique assertion that the
Israeli government coearced and then scripted Eichmann testimony is? 
What, he doesn't have any? How unsuprising. Obviously, Mr. Belling's
"imagination," as well as his tongue, is running loose again.  

> It doesn't take a genius to figure out how and why they wanted a
confession from Eichmann.-rb

Indeed. The Israeli givernment wanted to hear what Eichmann had to say and
enter it as evidence at his trial. Eichmann was quite willing to oblige
the Israeli givernment. Not the the least of reasons  is that it offered
him an opportunity to attempt to paint himself as a powerless functionary
who just followed order  and who never was directly involved in the
genocide of European Jewry. 

Unfortunately, for Eichmann, as clever as he was, he wasn't clever enough
to pull off such a stunt. There was ample evidence of his complicity _and_
authority in the genocide of European Jewry to soundly convict him. 

>   He wrote and signed a document of his own free will! Rather than sign
>   a document they presented him with, he wrote one himself. He did this
>   after considering his position for 24 hours. 
> 
> COMMENT:  Ha, ha, ha, snicker.....Sure he signed of his own "free will"!  
> Don't you know?  They ALL do......rb

And where is Mr. Belling's evidence that supports his snide innuendo that
Eichmann did not author said document of his own free will? What, he
doesn't have any? How unsuprising. Obviously, Mr. Belling's "imagination,"
as well as his tongue, is running loose (in the gutter) again.  

>   ....The last group:  Survivors...so many lies and hysterical
imaginings all  
>   packed with inconsistencies and contradictions: 90% of them NOT CREDIBLE. 
>    
> >  >  Mr. Belling, please enumrate and substantiate that 90 percent of 
> >  >  survivortestimony was " many lies and hysterical imaginings all 
> >  >  packed with inconsistencies and contradictions."
> 
> COMMENT:  Let me qualify:  90% of the survivor testimony I have examined
> is exactly as I have represented it.--rb

Ah, that is rather a far different thing indeed from Mr. Belling's
original claim! Considering that Mr. Belling has presented a rather small-
one might even say _insignificant_ -percentage of survivor testimony that
he has "examined" (i.e. slandered), it is no wonder why Mr. Belling beats
a hasty retreat from his origional claim!

Furthermore, Mr. Belling has not even remotely substantiated his claim
that the survivor testimony he has "examined" consists of "many lies and
hysterical imaginings all packed with inconsistencies and contradictions."
In fact, Mr. Belling has not _attempted_ to even provide such
substantiation in any credible fashion whatsoever! Rather, he has simply
_opined_, without credible evidence or critical thought, that the survivor
testimony he has "examined" (i.e. slandered) is "lies and hysterical
imaginings." 

This is hardly the sign of a rational and objective person.  

Because of this one is left with the distinct impression that Mr. Belling
has no interest in the free exchange of ideas and honest debate in regards
to the historical event of the Holocaust. Rather, it simply evidences that
Mr.Belling, when his other posts are taken into account, is merely a
(terrible) progandist promulgating lies, anti-Semitism, and Nazi apologia
for the distinct purpose of white-washing Nazi atrocities and genocide. 

[snip]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jan  3 15:48:26 PST 1997
Article: 90828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The revisionist standard of proof
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 02:14:55 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 260
Message-ID: 
References:  <5aiofu$opu@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5aiofu$opu@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

>    
>   
>   Subject: Investigation of Attrocities at Kauffring Camp #4 near Hulach,
>   Germany. (Hulach is near Landsberg).
>   
>   On May 1, 1945 I inspected 286 bodies lying in the compound of the above
>   camp. The examination as to the cause of death was of necessity quite
>   superficial and hurried. The cause of death could be roughly divided into
>   three catagories:
>   
>   1. 86 bodies were so severely burned that the burns themselves were
>   undoubtably the cause of death. Sworn statements of witnesses indicate
>   that these individuals were locked in the barracks at the compound and
>   that these buildings were deliberately set on fire with the attempt to
>   destroy all these bodies by the Germans shortly before the American troops
>   liberated this camp.
> 
> 
> COMMENT:  That these bodies were burnt, I do not question, if the authorities
> found them in this condition....  

"If?" Is Mr. Blackmore febrile? Did not Dr. Larson, the forensic authority
on site, write: "On May 1, 1945 I inspected 286 bodies lying in the
compound of the above
camp...." 

> However, i accept the inmates description of the alleged crime with
reservation....I would want to hear more from the staff  members of the
camp, and how this came about. 

There is no reason for reservations. Dr. Larson, an esteemed forensic
pathologist, stated after his exmaination that "86 bodies were so severely
burned that the burns themselves were undoubtably the cause of death."
Where were these bodies found? In the in the burned down barracks of the
camp which, according to Sworn statements of witnesses, the Nazis had
locked the victims in. 

Given that the cause of death was _not_ from gunshot wounds, for example,
but by burning to death, it is rather unbelievable that _all_  86
prisoners _chose_ to remain in a burning barracks and burn to death
instead of exiting the barracks. Considering this, the sworn statements by
the witnesses that these 86 people were _locked_ in the barracks by the
camp guards then becomes _quite_ credible. 

> If they admitted, without torture, that they deliberately murdered these
inmates, then they should have  been turned over to the German authorities
for trial and punishment.--rb

How condescending of Mr. Belling. (Hypocritical even.) When exactly such
was done, Mr. Belling has objected with puerile accusations of torture and
fraud. My extreme skepticism of Mr. Belling's sincerity (and honesty)
remains unchanged . 

>   2. 11 bodies were shot either in the head, chest or abdomen or in
>   different combinations of the above wounds sufficient to be the cause of
>   death.
>   
>   3. 189 bodies showed no gross external cause of death. All of these
>   bodies, as well as those in the foregoing two classifications, were
>   extremely emanciated; many of them had large decubitus sores, and all were
>   lice-infested. According to witnesses, typhus was present in this camp and
>   some could have died of this disease.
> 
> COMMENT:  I accept the report up to this point.  Now, let's deal with the
> remainder.--rb

Excellent. Mr. Belling has accepted the professional, nay, _legal_,
opinion the expert witness Dr. Larson!

>  However, according to other reliable testimony,
> 
> COMMENT:  How do we know this testimony is "reliable"?  I must reject this.

And does Mr. Belling know that said testimony is _not_ reliable? No. Yet
he rejects said testimonmy out of hand. Given what is currently known
today about the use of phenol injections as a method of killing by the
Nazis, that Mr. Belling immediately rejects this "reliable testimony"
clearly exposes his prejudices against accusations and evidence of Nazi
atrocities.

>   these individuals were murdered by hypodermic injection of an
>   unknown poison a matter of hours before the Americans liberated the camp.
>   The German doctor for the camp- a 'Dr. Blanke' -was seen to have used a
>   large srynge with a needle and to have injected this unknown poison into
>   these individuals. The result of the injection was death in from five to
>   20 minutes. Death was precedeeded by generalized convulsions. In a search
>   of the camp and of 'Dr, Blanke's' home and office, no clue was found as to
>   the type of poison used. From some autopsies performed, the brain and
>   portions of the liver, the spleen, the heart and one kidney were retained
>   for transmission to the First Medical Laboratory in Paris for
>   toxicological exanimation to determine the type of administered. (Author's
>   Note: Major Larson later recieved reports from FML in Paris that the
>   organs he had sent in for toxicological examination on three autopsied
>   cases were _negative_ for all poisons.)
> 
> COMMENT:  Ha!!  Negative for ALL poisons!  And yet his "reliable witnesses"
> said otherwise, and he was inclined to believe them.  

Mr. Belling is reading more into Dr. Larson's report than Dr. Larson
wrote. Dr. Larson related that "reliable testimony" indicated that the 189
victims who "showed no gross external cause of death" _may_ have died from
lethal injections. He then described the symptoms of death as reported to
him, and then Dr. Larson SEARCHED THE CAMP FOR EVIDENCE OF THE POISON
ALLEGEDLY USED.

Is that the actions of a forensic expert who blindly accepts testimony? No. 

Furthermore, after "no clue was found as to the type of poison used," Dr.
Larson autopsied several of the victims and sent organs samples to Paris
for "toxicological exanimation" to see if the poison (if any) could be
determined. 

Is that the actions of a forensic expert who blindly accepts testimony? No. 

> At least you were honest enough to post this. the "reliable" witnesses
turned out to be unreliable when put to the test.--rb

The issue, of course, is _not_ this "reliable testimony" regarding the
alledged killing by lethal injections. The issue is whether or not Mr.
Belling accepts Dr. Larson's report. That Mr. Belling tries to divert the
topic away from this, and thus avoid committing himself to an answer on
this, is telling. 

The fact remains that in spite of this "reliable testimony" Dr. Larson did
_not_ blindly accept said testimony. Nor, as Mr. Belling claims, did he
evidence in his report that he was "inclined to believe" said testimony.
Dr. Larson's actions also speaks loudly of his skepticism and
professionalism, as he went to some lengths to confirm _or_ deny that the
cause of death for these 189 victims was from poison. He examined the
corpses, performed autopsies, and even sent tissue samples to Paris for
toxilogical examination. In other words, Dr. Larson performed his
professional duties in an exemplary fashion and without reproach. 

That Mr. Belling implies otherwise simply exemplifies _Mr. Belling's_ own
intellectual and character flaws.  

>   In one autopsied case the
>   individual had pulmonary tuberculosis which was bilateral and rather far
>   advanced. There was no gross cavitation, and about 
>   75 percent of the lung tissue contained air and was not completely
>   replaced by the tuberculosis except for some recent bronchogenic
>   dissemination. No focal tuberculosis was found in other organs of the
>   body. This autopsy was performed under field conditions with no water
>   available.
>   
>   The testimony suggested that some of those poisoned recieved injections
>   over the heart. No needle wounds were observed on the heart in the cases
>   autopsied. 
> 
> 
> COMMENT:  No poisons.  No puncture wounds.  No crime.  False witnesses.
> These people could have died from natural causes.--rb

The issue, of course, is _not_ this "reliable testimony" in regards to the
accusations of killing by lethal injection. The issue is whether or not
Mr. Belling accepts Dr. Larson's report. That Mr. Belling tries to divert
the topic away from this, and thus avoid committing himself to an answer,
is telling. 

>   Dr. Blake committed suicide a few minutes before the Americans arrived in
>   town and, according to testimony, his death was due to poisoning
>   self-administered, supposedly the same type used on the prisoners in the
>  compound. He aslo murdered his wife by the same means before taking his
>   own life.
> 
> COMMENT:  Another of those "mysterious " German "suicides" using the same
> "poison" they failed to uncover in any of the corpses.

Mr. Belling's specious and slanderous innuendo is noted. Mr. Belling, true
to form, cannot pass up a chance to slander the Allies. Such are the
obsessions of anti-Semtic lying scumbag Nazi apologists it seems....

>   Thirt-one additional bodies were found in the woods lying on the ground
>   in a somewhat scattered position a few hundred yards from the compound.
>   Superficial examination of these bodies showed that 17 of them had died as
>   a result of gunshot wounds; mostly multiple and probably from machine gun
>   fire as whole extremities were amputated on some. Fourteen of these bodies
>   showed no visable external cause of death and were also supposed to have
>   been poisoned. Numerous photogrphs were taken to corrborate this report.
>   
>   SIGNED: Major C.P. Larson, M.C.
>   Pathologist (50th General Hospital)
>   D.S. with War Crimes Team 6823.
>   
>    
>   
>   Source: McCallum, "Crime Doctor: Dr. Charles P. Larson, world's foremost
>   medical-detective, reports from his crime file_, p. 57-58.
>   
>   See also: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/kauffring/dr-larson
>   
>   
>   Well, Mr. Belling, _do_ you accept the above report by Dr. Larson? 
>   
> COMMENT:  Based upon YOUR word that this is a true and valid document...

The question put to Mr. Belling was _not_ whether _I_ claim that the above
report by Dr. larson is genuine and valid, but whether _Mr. Belling_
accepts Dr. Larson's report as genuine and valid. If Mr. Belling has
reservations about whether Dr. Larson's report is genuine and/or truthful,
I suggest he first locate the origional report and have it subjected to
forensic anlysis. Second, I suggest that Mr. Belling then provide
substantive evidence that Dr. Larson was _not_ truthful in his reports
and/or that he was _not_ professionally qualified to give such forensic
pathological opinions. 

>  yes, and no attempt at cheap trickery, a la Charles Power,
>  I accept it with the reservations I posted.  

Of course, the such "reservations" are, of course, cheap trickery itself.... 

> Now, when will you post the autopsy and toxicological reports from Dachau?  

First, I have never promised Mr. Belling to "post the autopsy and
toxicological reports from Dachau." That is a fiction on Mr. Belling's
part. I promised to post a _full citation_ (i.e the page number) to Dr.
Larsen's report in the Congressional Record. 

Second, as I have already made clear, I haven't had time to take time off
>from  work and visit the library at UC Berkeley. If Mr. Belling is
impatient for me to visit the library, I suggest he pay me to do so. My
rate is $90/hr. A minimum of four hours will be required. Payment by money
order, please. Otherwise, Mr. Belling will simply need to hold his water
until my schedule permits me to visit the library. Or, of course, if Mr.
Belling's can satiate his "curiousity" by simply visiting a library that
has the Congressional Record himself. 

What a thought.

> And I still think that we should  hear the Germans explanation about what 
> actually happened at this camp--rb

And I still think Mr. Belling is a anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan  4 09:44:04 PST 1997
Article: 90944 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:13:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 80
Message-ID: 
References:  <5ajrps$od6@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5ajrps$od6@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <5ag90a$2r@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> 
> SNIP
> 
> COMMENT:  You should not have brought the subject of Bach-Zelewski
> up.  It has opened a can of worms for you.  The fact is that Hoess apparently
> went outside of the perimeters of what was allowed for the administration of
> the camp, and was upbraded for it.  The very fact that Bach-Zelewski upheld
> the death sentence

Er, Bach-Zelewski didn't "uphold" the death sentance. He _ordered_ it. 

> yet was OVERTURNED by direct order from Berlin is quite
> revealing, in my opinion.  

I'm sure it is. But then they were _civilians_, not prisoners. But then,
you always were impressed by Nazis. To the point of trying to pick up a
few, evidently.... 

> It was not so easy to invoke the death penalty in the camps.

It was _gratuitously_ easy. Just plop a bunch of convalescents down in the
dirt and  beat them to death with rods....

> Even the order of a Camp Commander and a high ranking SS General wouldn't 
> suffice.

Tell that to the convalescents beaten to death with rods. Or the Russian
POWs shot and beaten to death with shovels and picks while they worked. 

> This being the case, I wonder how much went on in these camps during the war 
> years that went contrary to the rules and unnoticed by the central 
> administration in Berlin? Quite a bit, I imagine. T

Gratuitous beatings? Summary executions? Indeed quite a bit. It was
institutionalized by Eicke. 

>  his would probably account for the fact why Himmler gave
>  Konrad Morgen full authority to investigate Hoess....

Nope. Himmler (inexplicably) gave Morgen carte blanc (until it become
embarassing) to investigate _corruption_ in the camps. 

> Are we leading up to something here.....indeed.  

You're going to announce a new Nazi hero to worship? Who is it _this_ time? 

> Of course you will now start to whine and holler...that is all quite
predictable....yet this case indicates there is much more to this incident
than immediately meets the eye.--rb

No, it simply means (predictably) that your "imagination" is running away
with your tongue again. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan  4 09:44:05 PST 1997
Article: 90945 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brainwashing
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:27:33 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
References: <32d427f2.2871369@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d427f2.2871369@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

>         Random House Dictionary:
> 
> "brainwashing, 1. a method for systematically changing attitudes or
> altering beliefs, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or
> psychological-stress techniques. 2. any method of controlled
> systematic indoctrination. 3. an instance of treatment by such a
> method."
> 
>         "2." is the one we want to define what happens that leads to
> ethnocentric obsessions and all actions committed as a result of the
> brainwashing. 
> 
>         "2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination" is what
> we can look at when it comes to reviewing any cause and effect on
> Jewish history.
> 
>         "2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination" is what
> leads to 'clone' goose stepping.

3. (Really "5," but Moran can't count.) The Moran(tm) sticking a wash
cloth in one ear and pulling it out the other. 

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan  4 20:03:52 PST 1997
Article: 91012 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!amberjack.netrunner.net!news2.agis.net!agis!newsgod1.agis.net!newspeer1.agis.net!agis!news.minn.net!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the Benefit of Mr. Kike
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 03:29:14 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 65
Message-ID: 
References: <5aepdk$5eg@news.enter.net> <5afug7$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5afug7$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
> >  >   rblackmore@juno.com writes:
> >  >   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
> >       
> >  > It's anti-Semitic and you know it.  Coupled with your distribution of 
> >  > anti-Semitic poetry, it is pretty conclusive.
> >        
> >  >  Nonsense.--rb
> >      
> >  > Sorry.  You are dead wrong and you know it.
> >    
> >  > I know you are but what am I?
> >  
> >  A Jew hating bastard with a sewer mouth, a penchant for dishonesty 
> >  that would make Richared Nixon blush, and an affection for a bunch of 
> >  murderers.
> >      
> 
> COMMENT:  That's it.  You lost the debate, and I am through debating it
with an asshole,

Does this mean Mr. Belling will stop arguing with his posterior? Or does
it mean that Mr. Belling, being a "brave" Nazi, and having gotten his butt
whipped again, declares "victory" whilst slinking away? To wit:

Brave Sir Nazi ran away.               [No!]
Bravely ran away away....              [I didn't!]
When Truth reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled    [No!!]
Yes brave Sir Nazi turned about        [I didn't!]
And gallantly chickened out...
Bravely taking to his feet 
For a very brave retreat
Bravely bravely bravely bravely        [I never did!]
Bravely bravely bravely bravely        [All lies!]
Bravely bravely brave Sir Nazi!        [I never!]

Meanwhile, King Arthur and Bedevere, not more than a server hop away, had
discovered something:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan  4 20:03:54 PST 1997
Article: 91019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Argumentation
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:15:58 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 48
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In article <5ajv4c$od6@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
> >  On 3 Jan 1997 08:43:25 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  
> >  >COMMENT:  I indicated above what this has to do with the Holocaust,
> >  >and anti_Semitism has nothing to do with it.  It must really irk you
that you cannot
> >  >with justification refer to me as an anti-Semite.  Live with it.
> >  
> >  Sorry, Mr. Bellinger, you have with your own words provided all
> >  the justification that is needed to refer to you as an
> >  anti-semite.
> >  
> >  But _do_ keep trying to squirm away from your own words. It is
> >  _so_ amusing to watch.
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> COMMENT:  So this is your new game....your slander version
> of pin the tail on the donkey.  This is much more amusing than
> your little persecution fantasies.--rb

Especially so when said ass has a tail at _both_ ends! 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan  4 20:03:56 PST 1997
Article: 91028 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: After PH, FDR wants war, Hitler doesn't
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 04:46:43 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 138
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In article <5alsvl$9ca@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   the criminal Giwer reprints a post from one of his friends:
> >  On 2 Jan 1997 00:34:43 GMT, vindicate8@aol.com wrote in
> >  alt.history.what-if:
> 
> >  >(1)  "Roosevelt wasted no time in reporting the New Facts.  The destroyer
> >  >Greer was attacked by a German submarine:  “She was then and there
> >  >attacked by a submarine.  Germany admits that it was a German submarine. 
> >  >The submarine deliberately fired a torpedo at the Greer, followed by
> >  >another torpedo attack.”  He condemned the attack by defining it as
> >  >“piracy — piracy legally and morally.”  Moreover, he compounded Nazi
> >  >perfidy by listing other acts of naval violence:  the merchant ship Robin
> >  >Moor sunk, a battleship dogged by a German submarine, and the sinking of
> >  >the Sesa and Steel Seafarer."
> 
> Which, of course, it was.  In September, 1941, the Greer was 
> steaming eastward across the Atlantic.  It was on the high seas, not in a war 
> zone.  It was sailing alone, its primary mission the delivery of diplomatic 
> dispatches.  It did not participate in any agrssive acts.  Instead the
U-boat, 
> for reasons which have never been explained, decided to attack this American 
> ship.  The Greer fought back against an unprovoked attack.  It was the first 
> combat between an American destroyer and a nazi U-boat.
> 
> Good for them! 

Indeed! However, according to Theodore Roscoe, in his book: _United States
Destroyer Operations in World War II_, On April 10, 1941, the U.S.S.
Niblack (Lt. Cmdr. Durgin), while rescuing survivors of a sunk Dutch
merchantman, picked up a sonar contact who's range was closing (indicating
a U-boat attack profile). The Niblack then dropped a "booming
'embarrassing pattern' that evidently embarrassed the sub to a point of
hasty retirement." The Niblack was the first U.S. destroyer in WWII to
drop depth charges in anger. (cf. Ibid. p.30.) 

It is without dispute, however, that the U.S.S. Greer (Lt. Cmdr. Frost)
_was_ attacked on September 4, 1941, 150 southwest of Reykjavik (and near
"Torpedo Junction"). The Greer was in close sonar contact with the
manuevering U-652 (Fraatz) for over three hours. (The U-652 was spotted by
a  Command Hudson when the Greer was 25 miles away.)  Due the ambiguous
orders resulting from the policy of "belligerent neutrality," Frost chose
to _not_ open fire on the U-652, keeping on the U-boat's tail instead. 

Fraatz in U-652, however, was evidently impatient to get away. After three
hours of cat-and-mouse with the Greer, he fired a torpedo at her. Fully
alerted, the Greer dodged and counter-attacked with depth charges. The
U-652 fired a second torpedo and the Greer lost lost sonar contact while
evading. Two hours later the U-652 was again detected and the Greer
attacked. The U-652 evaded and escaped unharmed. (cf. Ibid, pp.33-34;
Blair, _Hilter's U-Boat War_, p.360.)

> >  >(2)  "Second, the president often lies about/or misrepresents the New
> >  >Facts.  In truth, Roosevelt used the Greer episode to announce a policy
> >  >that had been quietly enacted in mid-August at Argentia, Newfoundland. 
> >  >Notwithstanding what Roosevelt said about “Hitler’s propaganda bureau,”
> >  >Hitler had studiously avoided an “incident” with the United States. 
> 
>         Actually on January 1, 1941, Hitler announced that he would sink any 
> U.S. shipping in the North Atlanitc.
> 
> >  >Actually, Roosevelt was looking for one.  His policy to shoot at any
> >  >German submarine led to the Greer’s chasing the submarine.
> 
> What led to the Greer chasing the submarine was the submarine's 
> topedo attack on the Greer.  Shot at, they shot back.

Indeed. In fact, the Greer, was heading to Iceland with mail and supplies
for the U.S. base at Reykjavik. (cf. Roscoe, _United States Destroyer
Operations in World War II_, p.33.) 

> >  >After it was depth-charged by a British airplane, the sub fired in 
> >  self-defense. 

> The U-boat was not attacked by the Greer nor was it firing in 
> self-defense.  

The Greer had dogged the U-652 for over two hours, "reporting its
position, couse, and speed, to all ships and planes within radio range
without firing a shot. And when the British Hudson asked Frost is he was
going to attack, Frost signalled he was not, at which point the Hudson
"swooped down and dropped four random depth charges" and returned to base.
The Greer continued to dog the U-652 for _another_ two hours (!) before
the U-boat turned an attacked the Greer with a torpedo. (cf. Ibid.
pp.33-34.)

> It was attacking an American flag ship in international water.

Indeed the U-652 unquestionably was. Just as the U-69 (Metzler), en route
to the  Gold Coast to lay mines, unquestionably was when it sank the U.S.
flagged Robin Moor on March 21, 1941, in the South Atlantic. (cf. Blair,
_Hilter's U-Boat War_, p.295-296.)

> All will, of course, remember the criminal Giwer's outrage at the attack 
> on the Liberty.  He wanted to nuke Israel and applied the label of "fucking 
> Jew  traitor" to anyone who opined that the attack was different from his 
> nutball opinions.
> 
> Note the different standard he applies to his nazi heroes.

Indeed. Hardly suprising, however, coming from the  gonadotoxic
Giwer-swine (tm) who is, as far as I can determine, a craven anti-Semitic
and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing
fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has been said
in exchanges (while accusing others of lying); refused to document claims;
pretended not to see posts which contain documented refutation of his
claims (even when they have been emailed to him); engaged in actual libel;
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism; Nazi apologia, crude sexism,
prolifically abused the 'Net, sent e-mailbombs, and harrassed people via
e-mail; forged posts; and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of moral, intellectual, and factual integrity that there
seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond to such a
perverted animal.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please
refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/giwer.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/griwer.matt/1996/giwer.1096

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan  4 20:03:58 PST 1997
Article: 91030 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 02:12:48 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
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References:  <5alt90$9ca@news.enter.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5alt90$9ca@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) responded to "blackmore's" apology 
> for the SS:
> >
> >  >  his would probably account for the fact why Himmler gave
> >  >  Konrad Morgen full authority to investigate Hoess....
>   
> >  Nope. Himmler (inexplicably) gave Morgen carte blanc (until it become
> >  embarassing) to investigate _corruption_ in the camps. 
> 
>         It's hardly inexplicable.  Koch and the others were stealing
money that, 
> otherwise, Himmler could have stolen himself.
> 
>         "Follow the money."  Deep Throat, 1973

Oh. Well, there _is_ that....  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan  4 21:41:58 PST 1997
Article: 91036 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luther claims to discover the Jew's Source of Interpretation
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 02:03:58 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 56
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
Message-ID: 
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In article <32cd106b.4507532@news.demon.co.uk>, redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk
(Fergus McClelland) wrote:

[snip]

> I am a lover of real music and have been listening to Wagner's
> "Parsifal" amongst many other works, for many years. About ten years
> ago, a young American rabbi came on British television and claimed
> that this music drama is "Clearly anti-Semitic" and should be banned.
> Since them I have come across other Jews reiterating this, though I
> cannot remember any names; it seemed a view held by quite a few Jews.

Yes. It is. It's rather unfortunate, IMHO. I too rather enjoy Wagner's
music. But Wagner himself was pathetic, IMHO. 

> There was no explanation by the rabbi or any of the others of this
> accusation. 

Perhaps because Wagner, the man, _was_ a rabid anti-Semite? And Hitler
idolized him _and_ his music because of it? Also, btw, Wagner's
Go"tterda"mmerung themes were particularly appealing to Hitler, who had an
apocolyptic (and self-fulfilling) world-view.  

> Now, I have heard many performances of "Parsifal" and the concept of
> Jews has never entered my head. 

Understandable if one is not informed about Wagner's personal history. 

> I know that Nietzsche walked out of the first performance, 
> furious with Wagner at the Christianity of the piece. 

More like Wagner's paganistic undertones and anti-Semitism. Which, btw,
was another reason why Hitler idolized Wagner _and_ his music.  

> So: What did Nietzsche and I miss? Is it a crotchet or a quaver
> hiding somewhere which we have overlooked? Perhaps somebody could
> explain - because I am damned if I can find any connection between
> this masterpiece and the Jews.

See above. 

For those interested in evidence of Mr. McClelland's anti-Semitism,
Holocaust denial, and intellectual dishonesty please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/mcclelland.fergus


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan  5 11:42:48 PST 1997
Article: 91107 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 01:26:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <32d776a3.7393289@199.0.216.204> <5am5rk$b59@news.enter.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5am5rk$b59@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

[snip]

>         There were no U.S. arms sold to Israel until France and Great Britain 
> embargoed arms sales to Israel in 1967.  The only U.S. arms used in the 1967 
> war were a few Sherman tanks obtained from sources other than the U.S.  The 
> U.S. has not supplied Israel with nuclear weapons.

According to _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_ (fourth
edition), p.1393:



1962, September 26. U.S. Assistance to Israel. The State Department
announced that the United States had agreed to sell defensive missles to
Israel in order to restore the threatened balance of Ppower in the Middle
East.

1965, January 30, German Military Equipment to Israel. As part of an
agreement between West Germany and Israel, following German recognition of
Israel, shipments began of some $80 milion worth of military equipment,
including helicopters, submarines, anti-aircraft guns, and U.S. made M48
"Patton" tanks. There were strong complaints by the Arab states, which
threatened to recognize Communist East Germany if the shipments continued.
Germany stopped the shipments, but not before most of the Arab states had
broken diplomatic relations (see. p.1391).

1966, February 5. United States Assumes Responsibility for Arms to Israel.
The U.S. took over from the former West German obligation, to maintain
arms "stabilization" in the Middle East, in the light of continuing Soviet
arms shipments to Egypt and Syria. Included in the American shipments
would be 200 M48 tanks. Soon afterward (May 20) the U.S. revealed that, in
accrdance with its stabilization policy, it was also providing A-4 Skyhawk
tactical aircraft to Israel.



[snip]

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan  5 11:42:49 PST 1997
Article: 91159 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!amberjack.netrunner.net!news2.agis.net!agis!newsgod1.agis.net!news1.agis.net!agis!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An honest interview
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 04:16:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 43
Message-ID: 
References: <32c8185f.89266581@news.gte.net>  <32c8346d.96448629@news.gte.net> <32C8875E.4634@nbnet.nb.ca> <32cbc6ab.49576238@news.gte.net> <32CC2CEF.1C61@nbnet.nb.ca>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32CC2CEF.1C61@nbnet.nb.ca>, Keith Morrison
 wrote:

> Giwer the Name-Confused babbled:
> 
> >>         The US has at least one state with greater economic clout than
> > >> Canada.
> > >
> > >Yeah, and one of its major industries is controlled by Canadians.  So what?
> > 
> >         Which one might that be?  
> 
> Let's toss some names and see if you can guess:
> 
> Robert MacNeil, Peter Jennings, Lorne Micheals, James Cameron, Ivan Reitman,
> Donald Sutherland, Fay Wray, Margot Kidder, Megan Fellows, Norm MacDonald,
> Dan Akroyd, Keifer Sutherland, Helen Slater, Jack Warner and brothers,
> Mary Pickford, Shannon Tweed, Duncan Regahr, William Shatner, Lorne Greene,
> Jim Carrey, Alanis Morrisette, Bryan Adams, Rush, John Colicos, Kids in the
> Hall etc etc etc
> 
> 
> > And what do Canadaians have to do
> > with Canada other than claiming citizenship?
> 
> Well we do enjoy living in the UN rated best country in the world, we
> have a better (albeit imperfect) health care system then the cousins
> to the south, until that debacle in Somalia we were more respected
> internationally and we have less chance of getting shot if we ask
> someone for directions.

But your beaches suck. (Haha! Takes _zhat_ you zilly Ca-nadian perssson!) };-> 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan  5 11:42:50 PST 1997
Article: 91161 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An honest interview
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 01:55:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <32c8185f.89266581@news.gte.net>  <32c8346d.96448629@news.gte.net> <32C8875E.4634@nbnet.nb.ca> <32cbc6ab.49576238@news.gte.net> <32CC2CEF.1C61@nbnet.nb.ca>  <32CCF985.3E99@nbnet.nb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32CCF985.3E99@nbnet.nb.ca>, Keith Morrison
 wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > 
> > > > And what do Canadaians have to do
> > > > with Canada other than claiming citizenship?
> > >
> > > Well we do enjoy living in the UN rated best country in the world, we
> > > have a better (albeit imperfect) health care system then the cousins
> > > to the south, until that debacle in Somalia we were more respected
> > > internationally and we have less chance of getting shot if we ask
> > > someone for directions.
> > 
> > But your beaches suck. (Haha! Takes _zhat_ you zilly Ca-nadian
perssson!) };->
> 
> Silly American person, try visiting Cavendish beach on Prince Edward
> Peninsula (that large ugly outcrop of New Brunswick) in summer.

Too cold. Too ugly (an outcrop). Too Canadian. };-> 

Besides, Maui is better.

> Besides, considering that Florida is the 11th province I'd say our
> beaches are fine.  

Considering that Canada is our 51st state....  

> So there.  Nyah nyah nyah.

Haha! Zo takes zhat _again_ you zilly Ca-nadian perssson! };->  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan  5 15:00:52 PST 1997
Article: 91186 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!nntp.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!news.tufts.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 17:57:30 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 447
Message-ID: 
References: <32ced522.5150921@199.0.216.204>  <32d5b58c.11935861@199.0.216.204>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d5b58c.11935861@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
> ># Below is a comparison of the two agents for Holocaust
> ># exterminations according to the 'facts' of the Holocaust
> ># story itself.
> >
> ># Handling; 
> ># Zyklon B.
> >#  =========
> >#       Need gas masks.
> >
> >They had them anyway, as the Zyklon was used for fumigation.
>         Not needed for CO extermination.

Nope, they didn't need them for C0 extermination. The SS at Auschwitz
didn't  need to constantly shoot the numerous gassing victims who survived
either, as there was only two instance, to my knowledge, of a victim
"surviving" a gassing with Zyklon B. One was a Russian POW in the gassing
of 900 Russian POWs and Polish prisoners in Block 11. The Nazis simply
tossed in more Zyklon B and closed the door again. He died. The other was
Nyzisli writing in his memoirs that a young girl somehow (barely) survived
a gassing. The Nazis took her up to the furnace hall and shot her dead.
(cf. Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.86; Nyiszli, _Auschwitz: a doctor's
eyewitness account_, pp.114-120.) 

> >#        Gloves suggested.
> >
> >Now that's a real difficulty. Moran, Moran. You are a lost case.
>         Not needed for CO extermination.

Not _required_ for applying of Zyklon B either. A photo (Photo 8) of
fumigators applying Zyklon discs clearly shows them _not_ wearing gloves.
(Pressac, _Technique_, p.17.) Furthermore, Auschwitz prisoner Andrzeje
Rablin (No.1410), who worked in the (clothing) delousing chambers of Block
3, described handling the Zyklon B pellets: "Sometimes at the moment when
the gas evaporated, I tried to feel it by handling the crystals. They felt
like velvet and were cool and damp." (cf. Ibid. p.25.) 

> 
> >#        Special levers to take off lids.
> 
> >Really big problem there.
>         Not needed for CO extermination.

But tools _were_ needed to maintain the engines used to produce the CO. 

> >#        Special training.
> >
> >They had the trained people anyway, as the Zyklon was used for 
> >fumigation.
>         Not needed for CO extermination.

But mechanics _were_ needed to constantly maintain the engines (which
broke down rather frequently) that produced the CO.

> >#       Awkward introduction systems.
> >
> >"Awkward"? No more "awkward" than in the gas chambers that used
> >engine exhaust.
>         Vents on roofs...

Piping system to introduce CO generated by the engines. Engines that broke
down. The need to (rather frequently) shoot victims who didn't die from
gassing with CO....

...holes in sides...

Piping system to introduce CO generated by the engines. Engines that broke
down. The need to (rather frequently) shoot victims who didn't die from
gassing with CO....

...wire mesh columns.... 

Like wire mesh columns were difficult to make? They were built in the
metalshop at Auschwitz by prisoner labor. Not to mention a piping system
to introduce CO generated by the engines. Engines that broke down. The
need to (rather frequently) shoot victims who didn't die from gassing with
CO....

> ...One account has "The first gassing in crematorium IV did not go well. 
> An SS man wearing a face mask, had to climb a little ladder to get to a 
> 'window,' then open it with one hand and pour in the Zyklon B with the
other. > This acrobatic routine had to be repeated six times." [2]
>         Definitly not needed for CO exterminations.

Gerstein's account of a homicidal gassing at Treblinka relates that the
diesel engine used to generate the CO piped to the gas chambers wouldn't
start; and  that it took SS Unterscharfu"rer Heckenholt 2 hours and 49
minmutes to finally get it running. (cf. Roques, _The 'Confessions' of
Kurt Gerstein_, p.23.)

Ho"ss, also, in his memoirs, wrote that: "The performance of the engines
was not always consistent, so that the exhaust gases were not often strong
enough to kill everyone in the chambers. Many of them were only
unconscious and had to be finished off by shooting them. I had heard the
same story at Chelmno, and I was told by Eichmann that these problems had
occurred in other places." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.43.)  

Using "CO extermination" sounds pretty "awkward" to me....

> >#        Need to heat the chambers in order to accelerate emission.
> >
> >It turned out that this was hardly necessary.
>         As it was they did it. (Not needed for CO extermination.) There
> were also heaters used to increase the activity for Zyklon B use in
> fumigation chambers.) (Not needed for CO extermination.)

The pre-heating of the homicidal B gas chambers of Krema II and III at
Auschwitz, for example, were trivial in that during winter "iron baskets
filled with red hot coke" were brought in. (cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.
170.) In Kremas IV and V the gas chambers were equiped with coke-fired
stoves. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.392.) 

Hardly a technical challenge. 

> >#        Ventilation systems.
> >
> >Really big problem for a nation that built jet planes, submarines,
> >and rockets that flew all the way to London.
>         Who said anything about technological difficulties? Not needed
> for CO extermination.  

Not needed for bunkers 1 and 2 at Auschwitz either. Nor were ventilation
system  initially provided for Kremas IV and V at Auschwitz. (A deaeration
system was installed in Krema V in May of 1944 for aktion Ho"ss. [cf.
Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.237.]) Ventilation system were needed for L.Kellers 1
of Kremas II and III because the L.Kellers were underground and could not
use natural drafts to deaerate them. 

> >#        Doctors.
> >
> >Doctors also supervied the gassings with CO in the "euthanasia"
> >centers. Anyway, what's the big deal? Why do you think it was
> >such a big problem?
>         Not needed for CO extermination. 

Nope, they didn't need them for C0 extermination. They were only primarily
present at homicidal gassings in case an SS man was accidentally poisoned
by Zyklon B.  

Does the Moran(tm) know of a case of accidental poisoning of an SS man
during a homicidal gassing? I don't recall one.... 

> >#        Washing out the chambers after each gassing.
> >
> >But this also had to be done in the gas chambers that used engine
> >exhaust.
>         How many eyewitness accounts have it so? One? Evidently there
> wasn't a problem, accordingly. Not needed for CO extermination.

Not true. Prisoner kommandos were specifically detailed to clean the gas
chambers at the Reinhard death camps. These kommandos "cleaned the blood
and excrement off the floors and walls of the gas chambers, as the gas
chambers had to be cleaned before introducing a new group of victims. This
group also cleaned the 'tube' and scattered fresh sand on the ground."
(cf. Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, p.111.)  The cleaning of the gas
chambers was also done in the gas chambers at Auschwitz. (cf. Pressac,
_Technique_. pp.171,484,489; Nyislzi, _Auschwitz: a doctor's ewyewitness
account_, p.52.)

An important point to make about this is that the gas chambers at
Auschwitz were cleaned for the same reason the gas chambers of the
Reinhard death camps were cleaned: To remove the blood and excrement of
the victims so as to help maintain the fiction that the victims were being
ushered into a "delousing" facility. 

> >#        Protective clothing for Sonderkommando workers.
> >
> >What was this "protective clothing"?
>         Rubber suits? Boots? Does Mr.Keren ask because he denies the
> story has that component, or is it a quiz question? Either way; Not
> needed for CO extermination.

To my knowledge there was no use of "protective clothing" by the
Sonderkommando in regard to HCN whatsoever. I have found no accounts of
any such thing. Sketches by Sonderkommando David Olere, who survived, for
example, show the Sonderkommandos in prison clothes pulling the teeth of
the murdered victims in L.Keller 1 as well as Sonderkommandos stripped to
the waist while hauling corpses from the elevator. (cf. Pressac,
_Technique_, p.493.)  

Rubber boots, however, _were_ used during the hosing down of the gas
chamber by the Sonderkommados when removing the blood and excrement of the
victims. (cf. Nyislzi, _Auschwitz: a doctors' ewyewitness account_, p.52.)
They were _not_ used as "protective clothing" against the spent Zyklon B
pellets, which were inert. Nor were they used as "protection" against any
allegedly "pasting" of HCN gas onto the walls, floors, or victims. 

Furthermore, Auschwitz prisoner Andrzeje Rablin (No.1410), who worked in
the (clothing) delousing chambers of Block 3, stated that he went into the
delousing chamber "naked or wearing underpants" (because of the lice) to
apply the Zyklon B crystals.  (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.25.) 

> >#        Need to sweep up pellets which still held considerable agent.
> >
> >No big deal, especially since this was the job of the sonderkommando;
> >moreover, this was no problem in the Krema II & III gas chambers, as
> >the Zyklon was taken out via the same deviced used to introduce it.
>         Not needed for CO extermination.

It should be noted, according to Dr. Peters of DEGESCH, that the HCN
evaporated from Zyklon B "without any residues." See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/evaporation-data

> ># Handling;
> >#  Carbon monoxide
> >#  ===============
> >#       Pipes into chambers     
> >
> >This wasn't easier than constructing the insertion devices for
> >Zyklon-B.
>         "Insertion devises" to mean concrete, pourous, wire mesh and/or
> sheet metal columns? Not needed for CO extermination.

The Zyklon B introduction columns in Kremas II and III were not contructed
of "porous concrete." The were contructed of metal and heavy gauge wire
mesh: 

In Kremas II and III "Zyklon B was distributed in the gas chamber[s]
through four introduction columns custom-made in the metalwork shops of
the camp. They were shaped like pillars and made of two wire grids with a
moveable core. Cross sections of the pillars, 3m high, formed a square,
each side measuring 70cm. Fastened to the floor, they passed through
openings in the ceiling, ending outside as little chimneys closed with a
concrete cover equiped with two handles. The external grid (made of wire 3
mm thick) formed interstices measuring 45 mm x 45 mm, and was fastened to
cube-shaped metal scantlings (cross section 50 mm x 10 mm). Interstices of
the external grid--150 mm apart from the internal grid and similarly
fastened--were smaller (25 mm x 25 mm). The two grids served as a screen
for the moveable core that could be introduced through the opening in the
ceiling. The core consisted of a tin prism measuring 150mm x 150 mm at the
cross section. The bottom of the core was flat, and the top was a cone. A
wire mesh with interstices of one sq mm extended from the base of the core
to the base of the cone, and was fastened to a post 25 mm away. The entire
length of the core was covered with tin. When Zyklon B pellets fell onto
the cone, they spread uniformly throughout the core and stopped at its
lower part. After the gas evaporated, the entire core was removed from the
gas chamber and the used peelts of diatomite were poured out." (Gutman,
_Anatomy_, p.167.)

See also: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images/intro-device-1.gif
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images/intro-device-1.ref

> 
> >#        Engine exhaust connected to pipes
> >#        Start engine
> >
> >So you have to get the engines. They may break down. You have
> >no idea how many engines you would need, as the Auschwitz-Birkenau
> >gas chambers were much larger than those in Treblinka and Belzec.
>         For a "nation that built jet planes, submarines, and rockets that
> flew all the way to London" it doesn't seem like such a hard thing.
> Simple mathematics - amount of exhaust from a specified displacement,
> the contents of CO in the amount, the volume of the chamber, the
> number of people. How did they come to figure the chambers needs that
> are said to have been used? Mr.Keren? 

How? Evidently with a certain amount of trial and error. The first gas
chambers at Treblinka were relatively small, 4 x 4 meters and 2.6 meters
high, with a capacity of 200-250 victims. These were replaced with larger
gas chambers measuring 4 x 8 meters. The height of the new gas chambers
were reduced to 2 meters because in the old gas chambers there had been
instances in which little children had not been asphyxiated because the
gas rose to the ceiling. The lowering of the ceiling from 2.6 meters to 2
meters also reduced volume of the gas chambers, and the amount of gas
required to kill the victims, thus shortening the asphyxiation time. See:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.gas
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.gas2
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.gas4

> ># Availability;
> >#  Zyklon B
> >#  ========
> >#        Has to be ordered and shipped from manufacturer.  
> >
> >But they already had tons of the stuff, which was being used for
> >fumigation. With a few little cans of Zyklon, they killed 2,000
> >people. Surely that was no problem.
>         Now it's a "few little cans"? A "few". Does he say how many a few
> is? Seems not.... 

Not true. Six kilos of Zyklon B was enough to kill 1,500 people. (cf.
Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.232.) That, for instance, would be six 1000g or four
1500g cans of Zyklon B. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, pp.16,21.) 

> ...Anyway, this is the second time Mr.Keren says they
> already had the stuff around, and this is correct, for fumigation
> purposes. When it came time at the end of the war to identify the
> agent of mass gassings, they grasp at anything that was available,
> and the only thing around was - Zyklon B.

Perhaps the Moran(tm) would care to then explain _why_ the Nazis used
Zyklon B _without_ the lachrymal at Auschwitz? In April of 1944 2800 kg of
Zyklon B _without_ the lachrymal was shipped to Auschwitz. (cf. Hilberg,
_Destruction_, p. 571.) And two invoices (February 14, 1944, and May 31,
1944) from DEGESCH to Gerstein indicate that 390 kg of Zyklon B _without_
the lachrymal was sent to Auschwitz. (Roques, _The 'Confession' of Kurt
Gerstein_, pp.93-94.) 

It should be noted that SS ordered that the Zyklon B have the lachrymal
removed contrary to German law, which required the warning agent to help
prevent accidental poisoning. (cf. Gutman, _The Enyclopedia of the
Holocaust_, p.1750.) 

> ># Availability;
> >#  Carbon monoxide
> >#  ===============
> >#        Any motor vehicle engine. Basically, everywhere, anytime.
> >#        The same stuff that can be gotten from any car or truck.
> >
> >Assuming it would work with such large gas chambers. And you would
> >need rather large engines.
>         Really? Now suddenly Mr.Keren knows what it would take. We can
> wait to see what he has to say about the other information in the
> thread where it shows a small 4 Horse Power engine can produce enough
> gas to kill someone in a non-hemetically sealed room of over 4,000
> cubic feet in 30 minutes.

At Belzec, for example, a "250-horsepower amoured vehicle" engine was used
to provide the CO for the gas chambers there. At Sobibor it "was a heavy
Russian gasoline engine (probably tank or train engine) of at lest 200
horsepower (V-engine, eight cylinders, water cooled)." Given that the
first gas chambers at Treblinka were modeled after those at Belzec and
Sobibor, the engine rating was likely similar though it was evidently a
deisel engine. (cf. Kogon, _Nazi Mass Murder_, pp.109,112,115; Roques,
_The 'Confessions' of Kurt Gerstein_, p.23.) 

> ># Costs (theoretical);
> >#  Zyklon B
> >#  =========     
> >#        Twelve dollars per gassing
> >
> >And that would be a problem? $12 to kill 2,000 people? They
> >couldn't afford it?
>         The record shows Mr.Keren is the one who raised the cost saving
> theory for using Zyklon B over CO.

According to the two invoices from DEGESCH to Gerstein, dated February 14,
1944, and May 31, 1944, 195 kg of Zyklon B _without_ the lachrymal cost
975 reichsmarks, or 5 reichsmarks per kg. (cf. Roques, _The 'Confessions'
of Kurt Gerstein_, pp.93-94. That's $2.27* per kg. Given that 6 kg of
Zyklon B was used to kill about 1500 people in L.Keller 1 of Krema II on
March 13, 1943, that would mean about a penny per victim.  

* Based on an exhange rate of 0.45 reichsmarks per $1. (cf. Gutman,
_Anatomy_, p.262.) 

>         
> 
> ># Costs (theoretical);
> >#  Carbon monoxide
> >#  ===============
> >#        Three cents per gassing.
> >#        At least 50 times cheaper than Zyklon B.
> >
> >How did you derive the three cents figure?
>         Okay, we can make it 6 cents, even a dollar, whatever.

Assuming the diesel engine used at Treblinka had an equivalent rating as
the "250-horsepower amoured vehicle" engine used at Belzec and that it was
operated at full load; and assuming that the fuel use rate was equivalent
to that of a modern deisel power unit (i.e. diesel engine) operated at
full load (0.0678 gal/hp-hr) [1], the fuel use rate for the diesel engine
at Treblinka would have been 16.95 gal (64.16 liters) per hour. 

Assuming a price for No. 2 diesel fuel of $205 per tonne [2], and an
exchange rate of 0.45 reichsmarks per $1, the (bulk) price of diesel fuel
can be guesstimated at 455 reichsmarks per tonne, or 0.455 reichsmarks per
kg. Given that No. 2 diesel fuel has density of 834 kg cu m [3] (0.834 kg
per liter) that would mean one liter of No. 2 diesel fuel cost about 0.38
reichsmarks.

Now, given that a homicidal gassing at Treblinka took about 30 minutes
(cf. Roques, _The 'Confessions' of Kurt Gerstein_, p.23) and killed (in
the old gas chambers) 600 victims [4], that would imply a fuel use of
about 32 liters of diesel fuel for a cost of 12.19 reichsmarks. 

That's 0.02 reichsmarks, or about 9 cents per victim. That would make
using CO (from diesel fuel) 9 times _more_ expensive a homicidal agent
than Zyklon B. 

Hardly "at least 50 times cheaper than Zyklon B."

Additionally, not only was the homicidal gas chambers cheaper (homicidal
agent-wise) but they could kill more people in a shorter time: Kremas II,
III, V, and bunker 2 could theoretically  kill over 8,000 victims in less
than 30 minutes. However, due to the bottleneck of incinerating the
corpses of the victims, the _daily_ capacity of Kremas II-V would have
been, at most, between 7,000 and 8,000 victims. Maybe as low as 6,000 due
to the "regularization" of the gas chambers of Kremas II and III. (Each
L.Keller 1 was divided into two smaller gas chambers, each with a capacity
of about 1,000 victims). The exception to this would have been during
Aktion Ho"ss, when incineration pits were used to dramatically increase
the output of bunker 2 and Krema V. Because of this (and the continuous
operation _and_ overloading of the incineration furnaces of the Kremas)
the output of Kremas II, III, V, and bunker 2 during the summer of 1944
could well have reached over 10,000 victims per day and, according to Dr.
Piper, even as much as the "staggering number of 20,000 victims" per day.
(cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp. 162, 167, 173-174, 224; Pressac, _Technique_,
p. 384.) 

1. http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu:80/txt/fairs/22161
2. http://www.cci-oise.fr:80/douglas/sat/fuel.html
3. http://www.age.uiuc.edu:80/classes/age221/englect/lect1/sld007.htm
4. http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.gas4

[snip]

The Moran (tm) is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

posted/e-mailed to Dr. Keren.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan  5 20:26:30 PST 1997
Article: 91234 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 02:41:17 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References:  <5acjhi$cdt@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5acjhi$cdt@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <32e6f493.4409543@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
> >  wrote:
> 
> Snip
> 
> 
> COMMENT:
> 
> And yet Krema I, where the first gassings were allegedly conducted, and
> where the facilities were later allegedly used for gassings again, after other
> alleged gas chambers weren't in use, was left standing completely intact.
> What a strange tale, this Holobunk.

Would Mr. Belling care to support his "opinions" with full source citations? 

No? Thought not.

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan  6 16:24:18 PST 1997
Article: 91449 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!op.net!en.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Jews return to France
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 02:47:16 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5ak0a8$7c@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>  On 3 Jan 1997 09:26:00 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>     klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
> 
>   And what does this have to do with the Holocaust, Mr. Bellinger?
>   What? Nothing at all? You mean it was just an opportunity for you
>   to share some more of your anti-semitism with us? How
>   unsurprising. Did you share this little goody with your friend
>   Harold Covington?
> >  
> >  >COMMENT:  I think that the Jewish people's history, taken cumulatively,
> >  >is very relevant to the subject of the Holocaust.--rb
> >  
> >  And I think your correspondence with Harold Covington, your use
> >  of the word kike, and your sharing anti-semitic doggerel with
> >  your buddy is very relevant to the discussion of your nazi
> >  apologia.
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> COMMENT:  I have nothing against Mr. Covington.  i don't know him.  I may even
> happen to agree with some of his opinions.  

That would be rather unsuprising at this point. 

> That doesn't make me a Nazi.  

Depends on which opinions. However, sharing some of Mr. Covington
anti-Semitic opinions, for instance, _would_  make Mr. Belling an
anti-Semite. Not to mention, of course, that Mr. Belling's _own_ posts
here in a.r. evidence his anti-Semitism and Nazi apologia.  

> I may also happen to agree with some of Karl Marx's opinions. 

Ah, Mr. Belling is an "equal opportunity" totalitarian ideologue! Is Mr.
Belling also a (closet) Stalin cultist as well as a Hilter cultist? 

> That doesn't make me a Communist. 

No, it makes Mr. Belling an ideological fruitcake. 

> However, I don't agree with your opinions. That would make me an asshole.--rb

No. Mr. Belling is an asshole because of _Mr. Belling's_ assinine opinions
and beliefs.

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan  6 18:17:13 PST 1997
Article: 91475 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Friedrich Engels on "The Joys of Yiddish"
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 04:24:30 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References:  <5ansla$2so@juliana.sprynet.com> <32D04617.48AE@ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32D04617.48AE@ibm.net>, Gord McFee  wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> > 
> > >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> > 
> > snip
> > >>>>
> > COMMENTS:  As usual your arguments and diversions are achieving the
> > hoped for results.  You fail on all accounts.
> 
> Normally one includes the other person's post if one wishes to claim to
> have rebutted it.

Indeed. However, normal people typically don't deny the Holcaust and blow
smoke out their butts as "proof" while doing so either.

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan  6 21:32:35 PST 1997
Article: 91496 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.enteract.com!insync!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 01:03:56 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 87
Message-ID: 
References: <32d66d97.5077102@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d66d97.5077102@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

>                       "What American Friend"
>                   N.Y.Times, Dec.31, 1996
> 
>         "Contrary to Edward W.Miller's (letter, Dec. 27), Israel was not
> 'god fathered' at birth by the United States or 'nursed' ...with
> life-sustaining monies'. The times the United States 'rushed' to
> Israel's aid have been few and far between.
> 
>         The United States imposed an embargo on arms to the Middle East
> during the Israeli war of independence, despite evidence that the Arab
> states were well armed....

And those outnumbered and embargoed Jooos _still_ won. (To the Moran's(tm)
bitter dissapointment, and gnashing of teeth, I'm sure.)  

...When Israel defended its interests in the 1056

1056? That would've been around the time of Al-Basasiri's revolt against
the Seljuk Empire. No Israel back then, I'm afraid.... 

> Sinai campaign, the United States led the calls for Israel to
> withdraw, setting the stage for the 1967 Six-Day War.

The 1956 Arab-Israeli war was instigated by British and French, who
enlisted Israel as a stalking horse in their plans to retaliate against
Egypt for Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal. 

>         In the wake of that war, the United States joined the chorus of
> attacks on Israel.

And the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. forced the British and French, after their
bumbling "victory" over Egypt, to withdraw from the Suez, Basically ending
their influence as major players in the Middle East. 

> United States aid to Israel is a recent phenomenon. 

A "recent phenomenon?" The Moran(tm) should get a clue (for once). The
U.S. State Department _officially_ announced arms sales to Isreal as far
back as 1962 to restore the threatened military balance caused by the
Soviet rearming of the Arab states after their embarrassing defeat of
1956. In particular, the rearming of Egypt.

> Israel does not exist because of United States policy nut despite it.
> 
>                                                    Avi Deitcher

Despite what nuts like the Moran(tm) might think, Israel exists because of
Israeli determination to defend their people, their land, and because of
their military prowess on the battlefield. And, of course, picking the
right Superpower, as their patron.

My, ain't dem wascally Jooos a smart bunch or what? 

Unlike, the Moran(tm), of course, who not only being dullard is, as far as
I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in blatant and offensive
anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial. The Moran (tm)
generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of intellectual and
factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to
read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please
refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan  6 21:32:36 PST 1997
Article: 91497 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!news.misty.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 01:10:56 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 89
Message-ID: 
References: <32d66d97.5077102@199.0.216.204> <32d776a3.7393289@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d776a3.7393289@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> >
> >                     "What American Friend"
> >                  N.Y.Times, Dec.31, 1996
> >
> >       "Contrary to Edward W.Miller's (letter, Dec. 27), Israel was not
> >'god fathered' at birth by the United States or 'nursed' ...with
> >life-sustaining monies'. The times the United States 'rushed' to
> >Israel's aid have been few and far between.
> 
>         Incredible lie. 
> 
> >       The United States imposed an embargo on arms to the Middle East
> >during the Israeli war of independence, despite evidence that the Arab
> >states were well armed. When Israel defended its interests in the 1056
> >Sinai campaign, the United States led the calls for Israel to
> >withdraw, setting the stage for the 1967 Six-Day War.
> 
>         (Correction, "When Israel defended its interests in the 1956
> ...")
> 
>         "War of independence"? If so, then also the European war against
> the American Indian.
> 
>         The Jews went there to commit their "war of independence".
> 
>         The world should just let the Jews do what they please.
> 
> >       In the wake of that war, the United States joined the chorus of
> >attacks on Israel.
> 
>         One of the very few times the U.S. ever condemned Israeli
> actions.
> 
> >       United States aid to Israel is a recent phenomenon. Israel does
> >not exist because of United States policy nut despite it.
> 
>         Thoroughly idiotic insult to any reader. 


Now the Moran(tm) is attacking his own posts? Okaaaay....

> U.S. support has been there from year one. It was the activity of the U.S. 
> that overcame the intitial League of Nations overwhelming vote not to
sanction 
> the creation of a Jewish state. Since then the U.S. has supplied the Jews
> with everything they want, including nuclear weapons, and consistent
> vetoing of U.N. resolutions against the Jewish state.

The U.S. supplied Israel with nukes? 

I suppose the Moran(tm) also thinks the U.S. supplies the U.N. with black
helicopters to kidnap U.S. citzens, putting them in concentration camps
hidden in U.S.? 

The Moran(tm) is a nut. A fruitcake. He's gone gaga. The Moran (tm)  is
also, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in blatant and
offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial. The Moran
(tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of intellectual
and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time
to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please
refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan  6 21:32:36 PST 1997
Article: 91498 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 01:44:12 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 64
Message-ID: 
References: <32ced522.5150921@199.0.216.204> <32cd1e41.390077@199.0.216.204>  <32da452e.10354680@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32da452e.10354680@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

[snip]

> >>         Then too, going by the suggestions of major defenders of
> >> Holocuast truth, the Germans built the gas chambers of Crema II and
> >> III underground so they could get on the roof, Brian Harmon, and/or to
> >> keep the victims from knocking the walls down, Jamie McCarthy, and
> >> thus require carrying all the bodies up stairs.
> >
> >Which stairs would those be?  The ones next to the corpse-lift elevator?
> 
> The stairs in Cremas II and III. 

Again, _which_ stairs? There were several. 

> If there was a elevator in one of them, okay. 

There were corpse lifts in _both_ of them. 

> Then we can see that elevators were needed to
> accomodate the use of Zyklon B. So what we have now is, elevators and
> ladders. Not needed for carbon monoxide, according to Holocaust
> 'facts'. 

And an "excavator" (a very large- and expensive -"scoop shovel" tractor)
was used at Treblinka to dig up the dead bodies for incineration. Not
needed for Zyklon B extermination at Auschwitz. 

See:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/images/treblinka-grave-02.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/images/treblinka-grave-02.ref

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan  7 01:20:16 PST 1997
Article: 91509 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Correcting Giwer's and Blackmore's scientific ignorance
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 04:08:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References:  <5ag051$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5ag051$rdm@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
>  
>   I do, Mr. Belling. That is why, for instance I find Kramer's conviction
>   and sentance more than justified.
>   
> 
> COMMENT:  You would.

And you don't. But then, you _are_ a anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi
apologist after all....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan  7 01:20:17 PST 1997
Article: 91517 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!panix!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Playing for Irma Grese--Fania Fenelon
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 04:13:09 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 124
Message-ID: 
References:  <5aqebs$jv9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5aqebs$jv9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >    "I usually used to beat them on the shoulders, but
> >    there were times when, because of the numbers involved,
> >    they were beaten on any part of the body that happened
> >    to be easiest".
> >  
> >  Irma Grese, on how she used to beat Auschwitz inmates
> >  with a stick; "The Belsen Trial", p. 713.
> >  
> >  
> >  -Danny Keren.
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> According to testimony given at the Belsen Trial, Ms. Grese admitted only
> to striking inmates who were thieves, stealing food from other inmates, or 
> those who refused to order and discipline, much as in our own penal sustem.



You thought it was very clever to have a whip made in the factory and even
when the Kommandant told you to stop using it you went on, did you not? -
Yes.

What was this whip really made of? - Cellophane paper plaited liek a
pigtail. It was transluscent like white glass. 

The type of whip you would use for a horse? - Yes.

Then most of these prisoners who said they saw you carrying a riding whip
were not far wrong, were they? - No, they were not wrong. 

Did the other Aufsehrinnen have these whips made too? - No. 

It was just your bright idea - Yes. 

In Lager "C" you used to carry a walking-stick, too, and sometimes you
beat people with the whip and sometimes with the stick? - Yes. 

Were you allowed to bet people? - No. 

So it was ot a question of having orders from your superiors to do it. You
did this against orders, did you? - Yes. 

Were you the only person who beat prisoners against regulations? - I do
not know. 

Did you ever see anyone else beat prisoners? - Yes. 

Did you sometimes get orders to do so? - No. 

Did you give orders to other Aufseherinnen working under you to beat
prisoners? - Yes. 

Had you the right to give such authorizations? - No. 



Source: Phillips, _Trial of Josef Kramer and Fourty-Four Others_, p.236.

As one can see above, Grese beat prisoners not only against regulations,
but used a special-made whip to beat them with -even after she was told to
stop using said whip by the Kommandant. In fact, she beat prisoners
without specific orders to do so! 

 

(112) Further Deposition of Irma Grese

I. On further refelction I wish to say in three respects the statements I
made in my previous depositions were not accurate. First of all I
previously stated I never carried arms. In fact Aufsehrinnen at Auschwitz
did carry pistols, I among them. My pistol, however, was never loaded and
I did not know hiow to use it nor did I ever do so. Second, when I stated
that the only time I had used a weapon to beat prisoners was when I had a
whip for a week; this untrue. I did, in fact, always have a whip which I
used consistantly whenever necessary. Third, I admit that there was also a
walking-stick which we kept in the Lagera"ltester's room and which,
although it was unauthorized, we frequently used to beat prisopners. I
usually used to beat them on the shoulders, but there were times when,
because of the numbers involved, they were beaten on any part of the body
that happened to be easiest. All the beatings to which I refer  were
immediate and I have never taken part in deliberately organized
punishments. If it was desiered to inflict an organized beating the
prisoner had to be reported and confined in a special cell pending
punishment. I never saw any such authorized punishment carried out. 



Source: Phillips, _Trial of Josef Kramer and Fourty-Four Others_, p.713.

Again, Grese confirms that she beat prisoners against regulations
"whenever necessary." Or rather, whenever _she_ thought necessary! Grese's
gratutious beating of prisoners against regulations is supported by the
simple fact that all her beatings of prisoners were "immediate" and not
"organized punishments" carried out according to camp regulations. 

BTW, if the photo of Grese (Woof! Woof!) in the book (cf. 352-353) is any
measure, she's a dog. No wonder Mr. Belling is smitten with her! 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan  7 08:36:48 PST 1997
Article: 91559 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!news.dgsys.com!tahiti.netreach.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irma Grese: By Special Request
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 01:49:57 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 57
Message-ID: 
References:  <5a60em$job@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5a60em$job@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >  Buckaroo@bonsai.organic (Doc Savage) writes:
> >  
> >  # I am too occupied laughing at the idea of beating someone
> >  # to death with a cellophane whip.
> >  
> >  She testified to beating them also with a stick, oh senile one.
> >  
> >    "I usually used to beat them on the shoulders, but
> >    there were times when, because of the numbers involved,
> >    they were beaten on any part of the body that happened
> >    to be easiest".
> >  
> >  Irma Grese, on how she used to beat inmates with a stick (excerpt
> >  quoted from "The Belsen Trial").
> >  
> >  Learn to read, senile one. It may eventually get you somewhere
> >  in life, although it's probably too late. 
> >  
> >  God help you if your Nazi pals ever get to power, Matt. You will be 
> >  among the first ones they will send to the euthanasia institutions.
> >  
> >  
> >  -Danny Keren.
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Grese beat thieves and malingerers with a stick....  

Grese, for example, pistol whipped and beat (with her fists) Olga Lengyal,
a member of the Auschwitz infirmary staff, for simply obeying the orders
of her superior, SS Major Dr. Klein. (cf. Lengyal, _Five Chimneys_,
pp.106-108.) 

[snip]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan  7 08:36:49 PST 1997
Article: 91565 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.hotstar.net!winternet.com!news.minn.net!visi.com!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 04:50:59 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References: <32ced522.5150921@199.0.216.204> <32cd1e41.390077@199.0.216.204>  <32da452e.10354680@199.0.216.204> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

[snip]

> At this point we must ask, would you please get to the point, Mr. Moran?
> If you're arguing that the Holocaust cost money and therefore never
> occurred, I wish you'd just say so.

Here! Here! I second the motion. If the Moran(tm) _is_ really trying to
suggest that the Holocaust cost money and therefore couldn't happen, one
need only point out the ENOURMOUS PROFIT the SS reaped from the Reinhard
death camps and Auschwitz. The value of the Nazi plunder far exceeded the
costs of building, staffing, and maintaining, and finally erasing these
camps. (In the case of Birkenau, _partly_ erasing it.) 

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan  7 16:12:28 PST 1997
Article: 91653 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:17:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References: <32CC422D.23E7@phoenix.net> <5aju78$od6@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5aju78$od6@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   Doc Tavish  writes:
> >  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  > 
> >  >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  > 
> >  > 
> >  > 
> >  > >  Given the above, is it not "interesting" that Hilter, in _Mein Kampf_,
> >  > >  (according to the index) mentions Jews about 150 times? Marxism
some 80
> >  > >  times? Race over 25 times? And Social Democracy 20 times? (In
comparison,
> >  > >  Hitler mentions the NSDAP a little over 50 times.)
> >  > >
> >  > >  > Strangely accurate, seeing that the words were written in
1922. If you
> >  > >  > disagree with Hitler's evaluation, why do you try so hard to
live up to
> >  > >  > it?
> >  > >
> >  > >  Actually, I thought the part:
> >  > >
> >  > >  "The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before,
he rattled
> >  > >  off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened,
and, if
> >  > >  indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember
a thing,
> >  > >  except that he had proven the correctness of his assertions the
previous
> >  > >  day."
> >  > >
> >  > >  ...Fits _you_ to a tee, Mr. Belling.
> >  > 
> >  > >
> >  > Oh no, the cat is out of the bag--I'm Jewish!  As usual, your reply is
> >  > trivial and irrelevant.--rb
> >  > >>>>
> >  You're Jewish too!?
> >  Doc Tavish  The Hebe Brit
> >  
> >>>>
> COMMENT:  Isn't everyone?

Only to paranoid anti-Semites with inferiority complexes.  

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan  8 19:03:03 PST 1997
Article: 91860 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Grabner Ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening'
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 02:13:21 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References:  <5acfbq$90m@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5acfbq$90m@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <19961228144900.JAA11110@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >  fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
> >  
> >  > Barn is burned down---now we can see the moon.----Zen Proverb
> >  
> >  Fafner's pants are down, we can see its ugly zit-pocked face.
> >  
> 
> I don't have zits.  Disappointed?

Once more our Mr. Belling confirms that he runs away to come back and lie
another day -under a different nym. Such a "brave" Nazi Mr. Bellig is! 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jan  9 08:38:41 PST 1997
Article: 91942 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.94.215.18!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 11:32:57 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: <32ced522.5150921@199.0.216.204> <32d91118.2809139@199.0.216.204>  <32d15870.16117466@news.gte.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> Freedom@Speech.FORREAL (Mad Max) writes:
> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> ## I said that one of the "gas-vans" exploded
> ## in Chelmno. 
> 
> # IF there is such a story that still does not excuse you for
> # believing it.
> 
> This is mentioned in post-war testimony and in the June 5, 1942,
> letter from Just to Rauff.
> 
> # Doctors and orderlies are reported for HCN gassing but not for
> # CO gassing.  But you know that.
> 
> Doctors supervised the gassings with CO in the "euthanasia" centers.
> 
> As for orderlies, their job was to watch over, help in getting
> the victims into the gas chambers, etc. What difference does it
> make if CO or HCN was used?
> 
> I mean, for God's sake, how stupid can you be?

Wait. It'll get worse, I'm sure.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jan  9 16:55:16 PST 1997
Article: 92004 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 03:01:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References: <5a7ao7$fn0$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <19970109210300.QAA18718@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <19970109210300.QAA18718@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:

> :>Don't forget Doc Keren...
> 
> It's Dr. Keren.  Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
> earned the right to be called Dr.
> 
> --
> Gord McFee
> I'll write no line before its time
> 
> Comment:  He has also earned the right to be called other things.

Indeed. And unlike the resultant self-inflicted downward plight of Mr.
Belling, those "other things" are indeed complimentary! My thanks to Mr.
Belling for reminding us all of the herculean task Dr. Keren has performed
in providing on-line (literally) megabytes of documentary evidence of the
Nazi genocide of European Jewry. 

Kudos to Dr. Keren!


On a completely different note. For those interested in proof of Mr.
Belling's increasingly irrelevant Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty,
anti-Semitism, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jan  9 18:46:58 PST 1997
Article: 92023 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mindspring!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD -  The Holocaust House of Cards
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 10:21:23 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 137
Message-ID: 
References: <32dcbdff.6456049@199.0.216.204> <32e27822.8249020@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32e27822.8249020@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

Ho hum. More Holocaust denier pablum from the Moran(tm), the _enfant
terrible_ (or simply _enfant_?) of the inane Holocaust denial cult. 

>         As this chapter of the Holocaust story has it, the Germans
> consistently used Soviet engines as the instruments for generating
> carbon monoxide.

This is specious drivel. As a result of the (early) German successes in
Operation Barbarossa there was an abundance of (captured and battle
damaged) Soviet equipment available locally. That the SS simply chose to
use (local) scavenged Soviet engines instead of taking engines from, for
example, the tank production lines in Germany, signifies nothing more than
opportunistic common sense. 

>         The first thing we would have to recognize is this would
> challenge any concept of a master plan where the instruments of death
> were systematically thought out.

Incorrect. The Moran(tm), as usual, purposefully misconstrues the plans
for the "Final Solution", as evidenced by the _prior_ genocidal activities
of the Einsatzgruppen in the Ostland _and_ the formalization of the plan
for the anihilation of European Jewry reached in the Wannsee Conference
with the implementation details, as exampled, for instance, in the
Operation Reinhard death camps. 

>         Why would the Germans use Soviet engines instead of their own?
> Child logic might propose the Germans used Soviet engines because they
> needed their own engines in the war effort. But then we would be
> talking about only three of four engines. One for each camp.

"Child logic" (which the Moran(tm) seems incapable of mastering) might
also dictate that using local scavenged engines would cut through the "red
tape" of procurring and shipping engines from the assembly lines in the
Reich. 

>         Why would the Germans use a Soviet "submarine" engine? Did they
> find it laying around? Did they capture a Soviet submarine and someone
> said 'Hey why don't we use the engine to kill Jews?'? 

At which death camp was this "submarine" engine used? Who, exactly, said
it was a "'submarine' engine?" The engines used at Belzac, Sobibor, and
Treblinka were, arguably, _not_ "submarine" engines. At those camps, the
engines were from a 250 hp "armoured car engine (Belzac), a presumed 200
hp "tank or tractor motor" (Sobibor), and a diesel "tank engine"
(Treblinka). (cf. Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp.26,31,42;
Lanzmann, _Shoah_, p.46.) 

It should be noted that the Soviet Northern Fleet in 1941 had fifteen 
submarine: three "K" class (1,498/2,095 tons), six "Shch" and six "M"
coastals (160/200 tons). None of the subs in the early part of the war,
evidently, sallied far from port (if at all). In 1942 the Northern Fleet
lost (presumably sunk) nine submarines. There is little, if no, indication
that any were captured. (cf. van der Vat, _Stealth at Sea_, pp.146,313.) 

Furthermore, the "K" (and probably the "Shch" and "M") class submarine
used engines of German design, most likely MAN diesels. (cf. Ibid.
p.144.)  For (a rough) comparison the German medium 500-ton Type VII
U-boat was equiped with two 1,160 hp deisel engines -twice the engine
rating of its WWI predecessor, the "U19" class (650 tons). If one were
assume that engine rating was proportional to displacement, this would
imply that the Soviet type "Shch" and "M" had an engine rating of about
370-464 horsepower, and the type "K" around 3400-4800 horsepower. That's
an engine rating (and engine) a bit different than the 200-250 horsepower
engines used at, for example, the Operation Reinhard death camps. (cf.
Ibid., p.37; Blair, _Hitler's U-boat War_, p.37,57,62.)  

Therefore, given the above, it is unlikely that this "submarine" engine
was, in fact, a submarine engine but instead, as indicated, an armoured
car, tank, or tractor engine.  

>         One would rightfully think the Germans would have used their own
> engines because they would have a ready access to spare parts if
> needed. 

Again, using "child logic" and that "we would be talking about only three
of four engines," one could easily assume, given the numerous (captured
and battledamaged) Soviets engines available, that spare parts would
hardly be a problem. 

> Since the story has it the Soviet engines kept breaking down,
> we would think they would have been ready to keep them going with the
> best resources they had. 

They did. In spite of the fact that the engines that supplied the gas
chambers broke down rather frequently, the Nazis managed to kill some 1.7
million people in the Operation Reinhard death camps. 

> Especially since, as the story has it, trainloads of victims were 
> always enroute and they couldn't go through having to store these 
> hundreds of thousands while the haphazard system was always on the brink.

They did. In spite of the fact that the engines that supplied the gas
chambers broke down rather frequently, the Nazis managed to kill some 1.7
million people in the Operation Reinhard death camps. 

> "Soviet submarine engine"? Now how readily would the Germans have
> had access to parts for something like that?

Arguably they wouldn't. Just as arguably the Nazis _didn't_ use a
"submarine" engine but rather a armoured car, tank, or tractor engine.  

>         "Soviet submarine engine"? Idiotic? Or just an another example of
> the joking nature of Soviet supplied testimony? 

The idiocy of the Moran's(tm) "submarine engine" red herring can be laid
soley at the feet of the Moran(tm). As usual. 

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jan 10 08:59:04 PST 1997
Article: 92055 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Chuck re Swiger
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:17:15 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 155
Message-ID: 
References: <32D42419.70EE@rio.com> <32d5d307.343132460@news.dmsc.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92055 soc.culture.german:93872

In article <32d5d307.343132460@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

[snip]

> Once again you call Wisenthau a liar by claiming an extermination gas
> chamber at Dachau which is in Germany. 

That's Wiesenthal, Mr. Swiger. And in regard to your specious claim above,
the Simon Wiesenthal Center states the following:

"The Nazis classified their many hundreds of concentration camps on their
basis of their primary function. In a very real sense, all were death
camps because the death of the inmates, whether through overwork,
starvation/disease, or outright murder, was ultimately expected.

"Those sites, however, which functioned as extermination centers
(Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec, and Chelmno),
were specially equipped for the gassing of hundreds of thousands of
victims each (millions altogether). All of these camps were located in
Poland, and for
 good reason. Poland had far more Jews than Germany and the rest of
Western Europe combined. The Nazis also felt that the relative remoteness
of Poland's rural areas would also minimize reports of mass murder taking
place there.

Source: http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/revision.htm#12

Note the reference to "extermination centers" and _not_ "extermination gas
chamber[s]," Mr. Swiger? You are clearly in err when you imply that the
issue is in regards to "extermination gas chamber[s]" rather than
extermination _camps_

And what does the Simon Wiesenthal Center have to say about extermination
centers (i.e. death camps)? 

"A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration camp with special
apparatus specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such camps
existed: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor,
Treblinka. All were located in Poland." 

Source: http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/36quest1.htm#6

Note the reference to "mass murder" and "special apparatus specifically
designed for systematic murder." The homicidal gas chambers at Dachau were
never used for systematic mass murder, Mr. Swiger. And when comparing
hokmicidal gassinf operartions at Dachau to the the six death camps on
Poland, Mr. Swiger, relatively few people were killed in the gas chamber
at Dachau. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Swiger, Dachau was not an
extermination camp and the Simon Wiesenthal Center never claimed it was.

> If it took 4 hours to unload the gas chamber in a best case you'd only
be able 
> to send 1500 bodies to the crematories in a 24 hour shift. No where near 
> 12,000 as is claimed. 

Mr. Swiger, you seemed to have "confused" Barracke X at Dachau with the
Kremas at Birkemau! Why is that? Ignorance or duplicity? 

The issue of how many people could be gassed is somewhat misleading, Mr.
Swiger, as it the bottleneck to the gassing operations at Birkenau was the
incineration of the victims.  According to an estimate made by the
Auschwitz SS the number of corpses that could be incinerated in the four
Kremas every 24 hours was 4,416. However, by overloadeding the furnaces
the number of victims incinerated was increased to perhaps as much as
7,000-8,000 every 24 hours. (cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_,
pp.165-166,171,173,180.) 

Of course, with the disabling of Krema IV in late 1943, the incineration
capacity was reduced by about 1,500 corspes per 24 hours. This meant that
the incineration capacity at Birkenau would have been approximately
5,500-6,500 victims per day. This caused unacceptable problems during
Aktion Ho"ss and incineration pits were used to take care of the
"overflow." The incineration pits, in _addition_ to the three Kremas,
could handle some 10,000 victims per day. (One set of pits augmented
Krtema IV [5,000 per day] and another handled the gassing victims of
bunker 2 [5,000 per day]). (cf. Ibid., pp.173,234.) 

This would mean that the number of victims that could be killed _and_
disposed of per day at Birkenau could have been as high as 16,000 or so. 

> ...Incinerating 4 or 5 corpses in 25 to 30 minutes? Totally
> asinine. 

Then, Mr. Swiger, I'm sure you won't mind posting, for example, the heat
transfer equations, in specific regard to the Topf tripple-muffle furnace,
that proves that incinerating "4 or 5 corpses" in 25-30 minutes is
"totally asinine?" 

> State of the art crematories take 1 to 3 hours to cremate
> just one corpse. Consult a crematory and find out for yourself. 

Excellent advice, Mr. Swiger! Too bad you seem to have not taken it
yourself. From the Internet Cremation Society FAQ:

"The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort
manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F.
The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of machine.
Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation
while high capacity machines take less than one hour. In addition to the
type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of cremations
conducted during the day also affect the time. For example, in the retort
we operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two hours and the
second takes about an hour. That is because the retort already has a high
internal temperature at the beginning of the second cremation."

Source: http://www.cremation.org/faq.shtml#At what temperature  

Please note, Mr. Swiger, that "high capacity machines take less than one
hour." Considering the operating temperatures, incineration times, and
number of muffles etc, the Topf triple-muffle furnace was indeed a "high
capacity machine."

Please _also_ keep in mind, Mr. Swiger,  that there are (and were) laws
that prohibit commercial cremtoria from co-mingling the remains of the
deceased. This means that the civilian cremation process allows for _only_
one corpse to be cremated at a time in the muffle. Such restrictions,
however, did _not_ apply to SS concentration camp crematoria. This is
_why_ furnaces were equiped with multiple muffles and _why_ more than one
corpse was charged per muffle. Multiple muffle furnaces, like the Topf
furnaces, in addition to their high capacity, were more economical in the
SS concentration camp environment than single muffle furnaces. (cf. Ibid.
p.139.) 

> But,this is technical and mathematical information that certainly doesn't
> have any weight against your emotional and fantasic imagination, does
> it Chuck? Sweet dreams.

_What_ "technical and mathematical information" would that be, Mr. Swiger.
So far _you_ have been long on wind and short on math. Typical denier: all
bark and no bite. 

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, absolute intellectual dishonesty, and his
outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics

Mark


> 
> Cliff Swiger
> Wahrheit macht frei

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jan 10 21:59:32 PST 1997
Article: 92112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:21:30 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32CB4024.3DD4@nbnet.nb.ca> <01bbfc3d$5b841cd0$737213cc@server> <5att28$7hr@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <01bbfea3$6e2fa080$7f7213cc@server>
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In article <01bbfea3$6e2fa080$7f7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
 wrote:

> william c anderson  wrote in article
> <5att28$7hr@lendl.cc.emory.edu>...
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > That's fine.  Almost every historian who's researched the topic disagrees
> > with you, but just as soon as you post the results of your own research,
> > we'll all be happy to discuss the issue.
> > 
> > Bill
> > 
> 
> The key word here is "almost". Remember, "almost" everyone once thought the
> world was flat, and all contemporary documents (maps, writings, et. al)
> proved this!

Mr. Sabatini, "'almost' everyone" thought the world was flat because they
ignored (or were not aware of) the experimental and emperical evidence
that was spherical. 

Lest we forget, Aristotle concluded (circa 350 B.C.) that the Earth must
be spherical because of the shape its shadow cast on the moon during a
lunar eclipse. (cf. Aristotle, _On the Heavens_ (Book II), p.14.) 

Also, Eratosthenes (circa 230 B.C.) emperically determined the
circumference of the earth by measuring the zenith angle between (and the
distance between) Syene and Alexandria and solving the following:

zenith angle / 360 = distance / circumference

So you see, Mr. Sabatini, it _was_ demonstrated some time ago that the
world _wasn't_ flat. It's just that during the Dark Ages that dogma (and
superstition) was preferred to emperical evidence. Solipsism and sophistry
is often far more flattering to one's ego (and one's place in the world)
than the truth.

And of course, this is often just as true today, Mr. Swiger. The evidence
of Holocaust is compelling. Overwhelming even. Holocaust deniers have yet
to offer any compelling (never mind overwhelming) evidence that the
Holocaust never happened. Yet some ideological fruitcakes would rather
salve their egos and cater to their bigotry by swallowing the solipsistic
and sophistic lies and dogma of "revisionist scholars" instead of pursuing
the truth. 

In the immortal (and misattributed words) of P.T. Barnum: 

"A sucker is born every minute."


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 07:21:53 PST 1997
Article: 92185 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.belnet.be!swsbe6.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!swidir.switch.ch!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Nature of Holocaust Accounts
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 11:43:14 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 63
Message-ID: 
References: <32d52e03.4424318@199.0.216.204>  <32df5f83.17095625@199.0.216.204>  <32d559c3.474991@199.0.216.204>
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In article <32d559c3.474991@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy:
> >Research.  Every other source, plus the physical evidence, indicates that
> >Treblinka was flattened years before the Russians arrived.
> 
>         Jamie specializes in making rash exaggerated blurts like the one
> here where he says Treblinka was flattened "years" before the Russians
> took over.

Er, no. Given that, for example, Arad's _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_
details that the Operation Reinhard death camps were ersased _years
before_ "the Russians arrived, one is hard pressed to see how Mr. McCarthy
was making a "rash" exaggeration. 

On the other hand, considering the above, it is quite easy to see that the
Moran(tm) has stuck his foot in his mouth again.... 

>         This is the kind of thing children get into. This is why it can
> be determined that Jamie has the mind of a child.

It would be well to remember that infants are quite fond of sucking on
their toes.... 

>         It is comforting to think that Jamie is the only kind of
> mentality that those who control Nizkor can get to represent their
> childish program, which is what Jamie does. He blurts out "years". 

Rather, it is _most_ comforting to realize that the Moran(tm) appears to
represent the typical denier "mentality." (Or lack thereof!)  Pogo,
undoubtably, would be _most_ amused at being so _convincingly_ vindicated!


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 07:21:53 PST 1997
Article: 92190 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.rmii.com!thoth.nilenet.com!news.intersurf.net!news.webspan.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Witnesses say "No Holocaust"
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 11:23:15 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 179
Message-ID: 
References: <32d0694a.17353569@news.dmsc.net>  <32d33485.171456473@news.dmsc.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d33485.171456473@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Jan 1997 02:56:21 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
> Alstine) wrote:
> 
> >Mr. Christopherson was "growing dandelions (for the production of
> >synthetic rubber) in 1944, on a state farm, three kilometers from
> >Auschwitz, a very real- but different -place." (cf. Vidal-Naquet,
> >_Assassins of Memory_, p.21.) That Mr. Christopherson evidently never
> >personaly saw any homicidal gassings take place is rather unremarkable
> >considering that he evidently was never at Birkenau! 
> 
> All I'm telling you is that the man said there was no Jewish
> Holocaust. 

So? The historical record shows there _was_ a Holocaust that killed some
12 million people. 

> Maybe he did have a cushy job nearby, I really do not know.

Maybe then you should first, er, _research_, those who your hold up as
"proof" that the Holocaust never happened?  

> But, if a Jew Holocaust were indeed taking place I'm sure he'd had
> either heard about it or observed evidence of it. Consider the
> following "eyewitness" testimony of Kitty Hart.
> 
> "Smoke billowed out of the chimneys, and soon tongues of of flame shot
> out two meters high into the sky. The smoke became increasingly dense,
> dark, and more suffocating, and it had a most peculiar odor. The odor
> of burning corpses may be compared to that of burning feathers. The
> stench of this burnt fat and hair was unbearable. What we had heard in
> the other camps was actually true---the rumors were not exaggerated.
> Here were the death factories. When evening came, the sky was red, as
> though it were ablaze."
> 
> Now if this sort of thing were actually going on I've got to believe
> Christopherson would have noticed it or heard of it. Don't you?  

Can you _prove_ he didn't? Can you _prove_ he wasn't lying if he said he
didn't? 

> >This is the  Maria Vanherwaarden who was imprisoned for violating Nazi
> >racial laws. She was not an "untermensch," or worse: Jewish. She was an
> >"Aryan" and therefore lived in the "Arayn" barracks with the "Arayn"
> >criminals and political prisoners. The Nazis did not include "Ayrans" in
> >the "special actions" at Birkenau. That was for the untermenschen and,
> >most especially Jews, where were considered as vermin. 
> 
> So what? She was there was she not? Fact is she said she saw nor heard
> any of this Holocaust nonsense. Point made!

Er, no. What _is_ "proved" is that Ms. Vanherwaarden didn't live with
Jews, probably didn't interact much (if at all) with Jews, and was not
subject to selections for "special treatment" like Jews. As for "being
there," there were many people, mainly "Ayrans," who where "there" but not
_there_, living in the Nazi induced squaller and disease, or subjected to
Nazi brutality, torture, and selection for homicidal gassing like the Jews
were. 

> >Now, either Ms. Vanherwaarden is mistaken about where she took a shower
> >at, or she was perhaps registered in Auschwitz I and spent some (all?)
> >time there? If she is mistaken, then she could as well be mistaken about
> >her other recollections as reported by deniers. And if she is _not_
> >mistaken but _was_, for example, registered in Auschwitz I, then this fact
> >was "overlooked" by deniers such as Weber and Raven et. al. who have made
> >issue over Ms. Vanherwaarden's testimony.
> 
> Maybe the window was boarded up when she showered? 

Showered _where_? 

> Who knows?

Obviously _you_ don't!

> Are you  really willing to disregard the lady's testimony if indeed she 
> slipped on this one minor issue? 

And are _you_ "really willing" to overlook the multitude of testimomies,
documentary, and forensic evidence that clearly indictes that mass murder
took place at Birkenau? 

Obviously you are. Why is that? On the basis of _one_ person?  A person
who can't even accurately relate where she was deloused when she was
refistered? One person who's claim is contradicted by a veritable mountain
of evidence? 

Or perhaps you simply grasp at Ms. Vanherwaarden's account as a drowning
man grasps at anything around, no matter how futile, as he drowns? 

> Will you make a commitment to disregard ANY testimony by "Holocaust"
witnesses 
> if I point out MAJOR discrepancies in their stories? (grinning from ear to 
> ear!)

And will _you_, Mr. Swiger, "make a commitment" to _accept_ ANY testimony
by Holocaust witnesses if I point out MAJOR similarities in their stories
and with the documentary nd forensic evidence? 

> >As usual, things are not what Mr. Swiger would have them appear to be. 
> 
> Oh I think the examples I've printed here speak for themselves. 

Indeed they do, Mr. Swiger! Unfortunately, for you, they say something far
different than what you have deluded yourself into belieiving what they
say. 

> But now that you mention it, things aren't always as they appear.
> Especially when it come to the really cruel, harsh living conditions
> that some Jewish inmates lived under. Like this, from Rudolf Verba, in
> his book "I cannot Forgive" describing the horrors of concentration
> camp life:
> 
> "Rudi," she said softly, "look at me."  Slowly, I turned around and looked at 
> her. She was crouching on the bed, and I believe that I have never seen 
>  anything more beautiful. Her dark brown hair fell down over her shoulders. 
> Her eyes were misty, but still she smiled, and her mouth was a soft 
> provocation. She reclined completely, and the delicate shape of her breasts 
> was outlined lightly under her pale blue blouse.
> My inhibitions, all inhibitions vanished. I bent over her, so close to
> her that her scent enveloped me, and this time all embarrassment had
> disappeared.
> "You smell so nice," I whispered, foolishly and confused. "Why do you
> smell so nice?"
> She giggled. It was a quite breathless, soft laughter. "Soap, my
> dearest," she murmured. "Nothing more than soap. But why do you talk
> so much?"
> 
> Whoa! Those Nazis must've served up some oyster stew to the prison
> population that night! Do emaciated women have shapely breasts? And, I
> though those Nazis shaved everyone's hair off and sold it back home in
> the Reich? Where'd this dame get her soap? Was it the product of one
> of her Jewish relatives? 

Perhaps Mr. Swiger "forgets" that Vrba (a registrar) worked with the SS on
a daily basis? In an SS administration building? That the SS were quite
careful about those (few) Jews they came in daily contact with being clean
and healthy? That these prisoners _because_ they had hygenic living
conditions and were (relatively) well-fed didn't suffer from the the
deprivations of disease and starvation and therefore _weren't_ emaciated? 

Perhaps Mr. Swiger "forgets" that, for instance, the Jews sent to the
"Theresienstadt" camp at Birkeanau _didn't_ have their hair shorn? Perhaps
Mr Swiger also "forgets" that the Jews in the "Theresienstadt" camp,
regardless that they enjoyed better living conditions (due to their being
used for propganda purposes) than they typical Jewish prisoner, were sent
to the gas chambers en masse every several months anyways?  

Perhaps Mr. Swiger also "forgets" that the Sonderkommado, for example, in
the Kremas _also_ "enjoyed" rather superior hygenic living conditions and
that they were rather well-fed? Not that it did _them_ much good in the
end -the SS killed them at the end of each major "special action." All but
the ones who revolted and razed Krema IV, that is. The SS killed _them_
right away. 

Sadly, it seems that Mr. Swiger's "research skills" are as biased as his
vile beliefs. He "sees" only that which confirms his bigotry. Even if it
means distorting the evidence beyond recognition. 

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's  ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile  Nazi beliefs, absolute intellectual dishonesty, and his
outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 07:21:54 PST 1997
Article: 92195 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ferdinand Lassalle on the Jews
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 08:25:52 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References:  <5b4p6b$sdp@juliana.sprynet.com> <32d6b197.109487295@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d6b197.109487295@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> >>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >
> >
> >>  
> >>  Well, one can hardly be more base than an anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi
> >>  apologist! That a lawyer (or anybody else for that matter) simply points
> >>  out the obvious by calling a spade a spade is _hardly_ being "base!" 
> >
> >
> >>>>>
> >Comment:  Conversely, simply because I point out all your errors and
omissions
> >of fact hardly qualifies me as a nazi.--rb
> 
> I must have missed it. You've pointed out errors? When was this?

When Mr. Belling was dreaming perchance? Sounds like more of Mr. Belling's
phantasmic "proof." Poor (self-tormented) soul. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 07:21:55 PST 1997
Article: 92212 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Argumentation
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 11:54:52 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References:  <5ansue$2so@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5ansue$2so@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <5ajv4c$od6@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> snip
> >  
> >>>>
> COMMENT:  That anal compulsion of yours just won't let you rest will it?
> Have you tried a little preparation H?

How's slumming for Naziboys going, Mr. Belling? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 07:21:55 PST 1997
Article: 92222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Where Are These Super Ovens Designed by the Super Race?
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:47:09 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 88
Message-ID: 
References: <32D42419.70EE@rio.com> <32d5d307.343132460@news.dmsc.net> <32d660b5.88778321@news.zilker.net> <32D6B314.1B0E@phoenix.net> <32D6713D.1936@rio.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92222 soc.culture.german:93930

In article <32D6713D.1936@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

[snip]

> Doc Tavish wrote:

[snip]

> > Where are these super ovens? Where did the technology go?
> 
> No place, doc, it's still possible, but laws prevent from putting in a 
> fat lady with a skinny old fart like you, plus  a plump little kid, 
> just off the train from Holland or some place.
> 

[snip]

Actually, one may find an intact Topf coke-fired double-muffle furnace in
KL Mauthausen today. It was built under the New Hospital at KL Mauthhausen
in July of 1944. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.110-111.) 

Additionally, one may also find two Topf coke-fired double-muffle furnace
in KL Auschwitz today. They were rebuilt after the camp's liberation from
parts found in the camp. (cf. Ibid. p.154.) 

There also may be a Topf coke-fired triple-muffle furnace still at
Buchenwald. (This would be identical to the ones installed in Kremas II
and III at Auschwitz). When the Americans liberated Buchenwald they took
photos of the furnace. (cf. Ibid. p.259.) 

And, of course, there are photos, taken (in January 1943) by the Auschwitz
Bauleitung, of the five Topf coke-fired triple-muffle furnace in Krema II.
These furnaces, along with those in Krema III, were dismantled and shipped
to other concentration camps prior to the Nazis abandoning Birkenau. The
Topf coke-fired 8-muffle furnace of Krema IV (which was razed in the
Sonderkommado revolt of October 7, 1944) was dismantled and the metal
parts stored in the Auschwitz Bauhof. (cf. Ibid. pp.253,333-334; Gutman,
_Anatomy_, p.239.) 

Finally, there are photos, taken after the liberation of Birkenau, that
show the twisted remains of the Topf coke-fired 8-muffle furnace of Krema
V. (The furnace was intact and operational when Krema V was dynamited by
the SS just prior to abandoning the camp.) Said remains may still there
today. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.425.) 

> >Where did this technology disappear to? This technology would be useful
> > for waste disposal. Please Jews do inform us!
> 
> I just explained all this to you, dumb-shit. And another thing, you 
> anti-Semitic dipstick, Jews don't own every mortuary in the world. 
> Check with "Butch" there in Prescott he buried both my Mom and my Dad, 
> he ain't no Jew, he's a big fat and very dumb Cherman.

Actually, Topf & Sons _did_ incorporate technology- developed from the
incineration furnaces supplied to the SS concentration camps -in a
post-war single-muffle cremation furnace. In fact, Topf _patented_ much of
this technology, which can be found in Patent No. 861 731, issued on
January 5, 1953, by the German Patent Office of the Federal Republic of
Germany. (cf. Ibid. p.104-105.) 

According to Pressace the main inventions were "the almost complete
combustion of the corpse (so that the volume of ashes remaining was rarely
enough to fill a normal urn) by a system of hot air recovery. The time
taken to cremate a corspe was from 35 to 45 minutes. The guillotine-type
closing system for the muffle door was that desinged by Pru"fer for his
8-muffle furnace. It is not known whether this model, a little marvel of
technical design, was ever marketed. It incorporated much of the
experiance gained by Topf in the Concentration camps." (cf. Ibid. p.105.) 

It is also interesting to note that the injection of compressed air into
the muffle of the furnace was origionally patented by Volckman and Ludwig
in 1928 and used by Topf in the incineration furnaces it supplied to the
Nazi concentration camps. The use of this compressed air system removed
the need for an expensive (and complex) heat exchanger, thus reducing the
cost of the furnace. (cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp183-184). This technology
can be found in modern-day crematory furnaces. 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 07:21:56 PST 1997
Article: 92239 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!news.minn.net!visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Nature of Holocaust Accounts
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 22:46:27 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 96
Message-ID: 
References: <32d52e03.4424318@199.0.216.204>  <32df5f83.17095625@199.0.216.204>  <32d559c3.474991@199.0.216.204>  <32d5e6a7.1267669@199.0.216.204>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d5e6a7.1267669@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> >In article <32d559c3.474991@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:
> >
> >> Jamie McCarthy:
> >> >Research.  Every other source, plus the physical evidence, indicates that
> >> >Treblinka was flattened years before the Russians arrived.
> >> 
> >>         Jamie specializes in making rash exaggerated blurts like the one
> >> here where he says Treblinka was flattened "years" before the Russians
> >> took over.
> =============================================================================
> 
>         We can see Mr.VanAlstine is playing 'rodeo clown' for Jamie
> McCarthy. Evidently he considers Jamie too stupid to come up with
> something also. We can just deal with Mr.VanAlstine's whatever anyway
> adn wait to see if Jamie comes out to show he's not a child mind.

On the contrary, I consider Mr.McCarthy to be an intelligent, sincere, and
moral person. On the other hand, I most definetley consider the Moran(tm)
to be a stupid, hateful, and immoral cur.

> >Er, no. Given that, for example, Arad's _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_
> >details that the Operation Reinhard death camps were ersased _years
> >before_ "the Russians arrived, one is hard pressed to see how Mr. McCarthy
> >was making a "rash" exaggeration. 
> 
> >Mark
> 
>         You say "...for example, Arad's ... details ... years before ..."
> 
>         "Years" plural? How many would that be? Two, three - twenty? 

Read the book and find out for youself, O' Toe Sucker. 

> You say Arad said? Whoa. That is absolute. But then again the
> other guy said.   
> 
>         "Years". We'll give you the benefit away from further absurdity.
> Lets say 2 years. The Russians were there in later 1944. Nizkor
> "annotation" said Aug. and beyond, 1943 the camp was still in
> existance. Which is more like a year, non plural. Years would be 1942.
> If it said 1942 then you would have years. From Aug. 1943 to fall 1944
> is about a year.

Read the book and find out for youself, O' Toe Sucker. 

>         Whatever, Holocaust historians all have diferent dates and
> accounts. That's what happens with documenting lies.

Incorrect. What happens is that the Moran(tm) lies and is caught by those
who refer to the historical record. The Moran(tm) then further evidences
himself as the foul-mouthed boob he is by gratuitously insulting those who
rightly point out that the Moran(tm) is a foul-mouthed liar, a hateful
bigot and anti-Semite, and a Holocuast denier cum Nazi apologist. 

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark


> 
>         What is it exactly Arad had to say? Just saying some idiot said
> this or that means nothing. It is not admissible as evidence. Submit
> the material you say and we'll go from there.
> 
>         Until then, all we have is you saying Arad said, nothing more,
> nothing less.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 07:21:57 PST 1997
Article: 92242 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Martin Luther on the Jews
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:16:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <5anh2j$hmk@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <19970109212100.QAA19179@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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In article <19970109212100.QAA19179@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:

> And your thinking that such sharing is "apropos" to this newsgroup
> sort of gives the lie to your claim that you aren't an anti-Semite,
> doesn't it?
> 
> Comment:  Nice try, but it doesn't jive.

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 10:39:38 PST 1997
Article: 92248 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Heinrich Heine describes the Polish Jews
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:36:36 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References: <5atm4a$ldk@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5avo34$dmc@juliana.sprynet.com> <5b0vs6$pr7$2@gruvel.une.edu.au>
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In article <5b0vs6$pr7$2@gruvel.une.edu.au>, ibokor@metz.une.edu.au
(ibokor) wrote:

> "rblackmore" posted:
> 
> : Comment:  My "mission", as you choose to call it, 
> : is not to "deny" the Holocaust, but to uncover the 
> : truth, even if it turns out to be uncomfortable for 
> : some people. :
> 
> 
> Laudible words, belied by your postings.
> 
> May your New Year's resolution be to live up
> to these principles rather than honouring them 
> by breaching them. May you succeed in such 
> resolve.
> 
> It's not impossible, all you need to do is to
> try. I am sure others here will gladly support
> your metamorphosis.

Cockroaches can metamorphose? Amazing. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 12:15:07 PST 1997
Article: 212457 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 02:07:06 -0700
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 12:23:02 PST 1997
Article: 92273 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:26:07 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 53
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References: <32d0749d.20252601@news.dmsc.net> <32D3A218.1027@rio.com> <32d4830d.257109387@news.dmsc.net>   <32d72f09.432235958@news.dmsc.net>
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In article <32d72f09.432235958@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

[snip]

> I be quite forward here. The U.S. major media is controlled by
> Ashkenazi Jews. One is a fool to argue otherwise and it might be
> better to argue that they aren't necessarily acting in a malevolent
> manner. This is certainly more difficult to prove and is based upon a
> lot of opinion upon which the Holocausters can easily prey. For the
> Who's Who, as relates to Jewish control of the media check out
> http://www.natvan.com and http://www.natall.com.
> 
> Holocaust promotionists are rolling the dice on the ignorance of the
> masses. Most people probably did read the Globe article and reel in
> horror without even considering the engineering feasability of such an
> event. This is why the Jews are mustering to shut up any discussion of
> the Holocaust. 

[snip]

Mr. Swiger's appears unable to supress his lunatic anti-Semtic beliefs for
very long.... Typical denier: Ready! Fire! Aim!

Hannibal Lecter: How did you catch me, Will?

Will: You had disadvantages.

Hannibal Lecter: What disadvantages?

WIll: You're insane.

       -Manhunter


For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, anti-Semitism, absolute intellectual
dishonesty, and his outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 13:15:51 PST 1997
Article: 92293 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: National Socialist/Racialist info needed
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:39:38 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article ,
Marty Kelley  wrote:

> On 9 Jan 1997 talisman@synapticon.com wrote:
> 
> > Adolf Hitler
> > was right, and I only wish he had been allowed to finish his
> > work.  
> > 
> > We in the Netherlands face Kike laws to suppress free speech.  We
> > are prevented from discussing the holocaust lie, 
> 
> Huh...let's see--you think the Holocaust didn't happen, but you wish that
> Hitler had been allowed to finish it?  
> 
> Yep--You're in the club!
> 

"There is always one more imbecile than you counted on." 
       
         -anonymous


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 18:49:05 PST 1997
Article: 92350 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: KGB Americas Monitoring Private Citizens? Yes!
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:31:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <199701082301.PAA23108@mailmasher.com> <5b3enj$f6o@news.usaor.net> <5b47b4$55@news.usaor.net> <5b49jj$iha@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32D65D7F.3355@phoenix.net> <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>
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In article <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
 wrote:

[snip]

> Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I have my way, the only
> thing these Nizkorites will be interrogating is the prison guard as to what
> time lunch is served.

It seems the veneer of Mr. Sabatini's "appreciation" of democracy, the
Rights of Man, the Constitution, due process, et. al. is about as thin as
his too thin skin. Why am I not suprised? 

Of course, the Nazis intimidated, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered those
who they felt stood in their way. It seems that Mr. Sabatini is simply
keeping with Nazi tradition. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 22:59:01 PST 1997
Article: 92383 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:20:17 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 182
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References: <32d0749d.20252601@news.dmsc.net> <32d1dab9.82918957@news.dmsc.net> <32D3A218.1027@rio.com> <32d4830d.257109387@news.dmsc.net>  <32d72827.430473483@news.dmsc.net>
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In article <32d72827.430473483@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:26:18 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> >cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
> >
> ># The alleged "gas chambers" supposedly measured 5
> ># meters by 5 meters and were 1.9 meters high.
> 
> Daniel Keren Replied:
> >The gas chambers in Kremas II and III in Birkenau
> >were 30 x 7 x 2 meters. This is not only known from
> >the plans, it can also be easily verified, as they are
> >still there today.
> 
> The Leichenkeller and shower rooms have indeed been alleged gas
> chambers but, there is no forensic evidence to support this.

Incorrect. In 1945 the Cracow Forensic Institute found cyanide traces on
ventilation four plates and two ventilation grills recovered from the
ruins of the (homicidal) gas chamber of Krema II in Birkenau. Furthermore,
in 1994 the Institute of Forensic Research in Cracow found cyanide traces
in samples taken from the ruins of the (homicidal) gas chambers of the
Kremas in Birkenau.

> Nonetheless, the measurements I posted are correct based upon the
> "affidavit" of Gerstein who is quoted here. ".........The rooms are 5
> by 5 meters and 1.90 meters high..." 

Incorrect. Gerstein (and Pfannensteil) visited Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. 

The L.Keller 1s of Krema II and III were located at Auschwitz. 

The interior dimensions of L.Keller 1 measured, according to Huta drawing
109/13A and, 30.55 m x 7.00 m x 2.40 m. The seven support pillars (cf.
Bauleitung drawing 932) had dimensions of 0.40 m x 0.40 m x 2.14 m. The
two upper ventilation baffles (45° right triangular cross-section)
measured approximately 0.5 m x 0.5 m x. 0.7 m. The lengths of the baffles
were 30.55 m. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.322-323.)   

This would imply a volume for L.Keller 1 of about 503.23 cu m. 

Furthermore, Mr. Swiger, Gerstein wrote in regard to his June 9, 1942,
visit to Belzec: "...After having mounted a small stairway, to the right
and  the left, three and three rooms like garages, 4 x 5m, 1m 90 of
height...." (Roques, _The 'Confessions' of Kurt Gerstein_, p.22.) 

However, according to Stanislaw Kozak, a Pole who helped build Belzec, the
gas chambers at Belzec were bigger:

"...The second barrack, 25 meters long and 8 meters wide, was for the Jews
dstied for the 'baths.' Not far from this barrack we built a third
barrack, 12 meters lonng and 8 meters wide. This barrack was divided into
three chambers by a wooden wall, so that each chamber was 4 meters wide
and 8 meters long. It was 2 meters high. The inside walls of this barrack
were double boards with a vacant space between filled by us with sand. The
walls inside the barracks were covered with pap. IN addition, the ground
and walls up to 1.10 meters were covered by sheet metal....From the second
to the third led a closed corridor, 2 meters wide, 2 meters high, and 10
meters long. This corridor led to a corridor in the third barrack where
the doors to its three chambers were located. Each chamber of this barrack
had on its northern side a door 1.80 meters high and 1.10 meters wide.
These doors, like those in the corridor, were covered with rubber. All the
doors in this barrack could be opened from the outside only. These doors
were built with strong boards 7.5 cm in diameter and were secured from the
outside with a wooden bar held by two iron hooks against pressure from
inside the barrack. 

"In each of the three chambers of this barrack a water pipe was installed
10 cm above the floor. In addition, on the western wall in each chamber in
the corner, was a water pipe 1 meter above the ground, with an open jpint,
turned toward the center of the room. These pipes with the joint were
connected through the wall to a pipe that ran under the floor. In each of
the three chambers in this barrack was installed an oven weighing 250 kg.
It was expected that the pipe joint would later be connected with the
oven. The oven was 1.10 meter high, 55 cm wide, and 55 cm long...." (Arad,
_Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, p.25.) 

That's _three_ gas chambers, each 4 x 8 x 2 meters. At Belzec. Where
Gerstein was evidently talking about. 

(During this same period Sobibor had three gas chambers measuring 4m x 4m,
each with a capacity of about 250 victims. Treblinka also had three gas
chambers, each measuring 4m x 4m x 2.6m. (cf. Ibid. pp.31,42.) 

[snip]

> >Perhaps you should really do some reading? You obviously
> >have no idea about the history of the event you're
> >trying to deny.
> 
> For this particular argument, I really do not see the necessity of
> being familiar with the layout of Auschwitz-Birkenau. We are given
> enough data to perform a scientific analysis of the allegation which
> is an obvious lie.

Perhaps, Mr. Swiger, _you_ should get straight which death camp (and its
layout) _you_ are babbling about before talking about "scientific
analysis" and "obvious" lies? 

> ># 12,000 bodies per day were "going up the stacks" at
> ># Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> >
> >Why can't you "revisionists" handle third-grade math? On
> >the average, far less people than 12,000 were killed daily
> >in Auschwitz. If it was indeed 12,000, the total number
> >of deaths over 5 years would have been 12,000*5*360 =
> >21,600,000, while the real figure was about 1.3 million.
> 
> I agree with you totally. One simply has to run the numbers out to see
> just how many corpses could have been cremated according to the
> legend. 

When the incineration pits used in conjuction with Krema V and bunker 2
are taken into account, Mr. Swiger, perhaps as much 16,000 per day. Oddly
enough, the daily number of victims (it depended on the transport schedule
and how many survived "selection") during Aktion Ho"ss cyclically peaked
every other day at around 10,000 to 13,000 incinerated. 

I examined a claim that said the rate achieved was 12,000
> bodies cremated per day. I do not care if this rate was achieved for
> one hour or one year, it is physically impossible today and it is
> absurd to suggest that the German National Socialists had the
> technology back in the 1940s. 

And your evidence of this is what exactly, Mr. Swiger? Your (copious) hot
air? Perhaps you'd care to offer some of that "scientific analysis" you
keep talking about but not sharing for some reason? 

According to expert evidence given by Dr. Roman Dawidowski, professor at
the Academy of MIning and Metallurgy in Cracow, the average number of
victims incinerated in a 24 hour period in Kremas II and III was about
5,000. In Kremas IV and V about 3,000. This would have meant that during
Aktion Ho"ss, for example, an average of about 7,500 victims could have
been incinerated daily in Kremas II, III, and V. (cf. Ho"ss, _Death
Dealer_, p.45fn.)  Add to this the approximately 10,000 that could _also_
be incinerated in the pits near Krema V and bunker 2 and 12,000 per day
becomes a realistic number. 

> >Why do you have to keep posting such incredibly idiotic
> >articles, proving that you are both very ignorant and
> >extremely stupid? Do you get a pleasure out of this? How
> >odd.
> >
> I have yet to see anyone dispute my findings in an engineering
> fashion. 

Mr. Swiger, at this point you have no "findings" that require rebuttal in
an "engineering fashion."  All that is needed is a fan for all that hot
air you keep blowing. 

> Sure, illusionists like yourself jump in and make hollow,
> derisive statements but, NONE of you demonstrate how such rates could
> have been accomplished with a scientific argument. 

Mr. Swiger, perhaps you'd care to offer some of that "scientific analysis"
you keep talking about but not sharing for some reason? 

> And, yes, I get a lot of pleasure telling the truth.

Then you must be an extremely unhappy Nazi, Mr. Swiger. 

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, absolute intellectual dishonesty, and his
outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jan 11 22:59:02 PST 1997
Article: 92384 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:31:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References: <5a7ao7$fn0$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <19970109210300.QAA18718@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32D59FC7.52D8@ibm.net>
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In article <32D59FC7.52D8@ibm.net>, Gord McFee  wrote:

> Fafner13 wrote:
> > 
> > :>Don't forget Doc Keren...
> > 
> > It's Dr. Keren.  Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
> > earned the right to be called Dr.
>  
> > Comment:  He has also earned the right to be called other things.
> 
> Mr. Blackmore, if I were in your shoes right now, I wouldn't be too
> quick to call people names.

But it's _all_ he has left! (Mr. Belling's phantasmic "proof" withstanding.) 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan 12 06:34:26 PST 1997
Article: 92413 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiger's lack of substance
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:33:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 317
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In article <32d5cd4d.341666525@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:45:17 +0000, Chuck Ferree 
> wrote:
> 
> >You say disease, hunger and acts of war left a lot of individuals dead 
> >in the various camps near the end of the war. That is true.
> >
> >I ask you to explain what you mean exactly by "acts of war." By whom? 
> >How? What acts of war?
> >
> Bombs, gunfire, grenades, etc.

And by whom, Mr. Swiger? And when where these "acts of war" taken? 

> Cliff Wrote:
> > No doubt this was an unsanitary
> >>condition and bodies were burned and buried by both the Germans and
> >>the Allies. But, considering the information provided in the newspaper
> >>article I quoted, 12,000 bodies per day were "going up the stacks" at
> >>Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> 
> Chuck Replied:
> >A newspaper article, Cliff...common!!! What about history books?
> 
> The "history" books make similar claims, Chuck. Look, the point is it
> was physically impossible to cremate bodies in 6.24 minutes back in
> 1940....

Incorrect. As can been seen below, according to the Danuta Czech, it took
40 minutes to incinerate 45 corpses in the 15 muffles of Krema II. That's
an average of about a corpse per minute per muffle. And this was thought
to be "an unexpectedly long time" by the SS and engineers present: 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
March 5  [1943]

During a test heating of the ovens in Crematorium II in Birkenau, the Capo
August Bruck, who has just been transferred from Buchenwald, explains the
construction of the ovens to the prisoners in the Special Squads and
familiarizes them with the instructions for use. The generators run from
morning until 4:00 P.M. In the course of the day, a commission arrives
made up of higher-level SS people from Berlin, members of the camp
management, function of the camp¹s Political Department, as well as
engineers and employees of the firm of J.A. Topf and Sons in Erfurt, which
built the crematorium ovens. In their presence, member of the Special
Squad stoke the 15 retorts of the five crematorium ovens with 45 corpses.
With clock in hand, the members of the commission time the cremation of
the corpses, which at 40 minutes takes an unexpectedly long time. The
Special Squad is therefore ordered to let the generators run constantly
for several days so the ovens get heated up. Participating at the trial
start-up of the crematorium ovens, which lasts from March 4 to March 6, is
the Head Capo August Bruck and Mieczyslaw Morawa (No. 5730), the Capo of
Crematorium I who was ordered to Birkenau for the test. Afterward he
returns to the main camp.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.345; cf. APMO, D-Mau-3a/16408.
Personal-Information Card for Mieczyslaw Morawa; D-AuI-sa/101,
Confirmation of Bruck¹s Arrival.

Of course, each corpse wasn't _individually_ incinerated in one minute,
Mr. Swiger, because charging _multiple_ corpses into _each_ muffle, as the
_previous_ charge was still being incinerated, was SOP in the Nazi
concentration camps. According to the "Operating Instructions for
Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incinerating Furnace:"

"As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid
to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards
the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left for a
further 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed
in the container and set aside to cool.

"In the meantime, further corpses can be introduced one after the other
into the chambers. (cf. Presac, _Technique_, p136.) 

What this means, of course, is that the remains of the first charge would
fall into the ash channel to be fully consumed while more corpses  were
loaded into the muffle to be incinerated. This, in essence, shaved 20
minutes off the incineration cycle time. So if it "normally" (i.e.
according to civilian law) took 40 minutes (i.e. "less than an hour" [See
below]) to _fully_ consume one charge _before_ another was put into the
muffle, the procedure described in the "Operating Instructions for
Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incinerating Furnace" could have easily
reduced it to 20 minutes. And, unsuprisingly, according to eyewitness
testimony it took between between 20-45 minutes to incinerate each charge,
depending on the muffle load. (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.166,180fn; _Technique_,
pp.483,489.) 

> ...For crying out loud, even modern crematories take anywhere from
> 1 to 3 hours to do this....

Incorrect. As can be seen below, Mr. Swiger, according to the Internet
Cremation Society FAQ, "high capacity machines [can] take less than one
hour" to cremate a body. Furthermore, as aslo can be seen, if the furnace
is alredy brought up to operating temperature, the cremation time
decreases when compared to starting from a cold furnace:

"The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort
manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F.
The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of
machine. Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a
cremation while high capacity machines take less than one hour. In
addition to the type of retort, the size of the individual and the number
of cremations conducted during the day also affect the time. For example,
in the retort we operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two
hours and the second takes about an hour. That is because the retort
already has a high internal temperature at the beginning of the second
cremation."

Source: http://www.cremation.org/faq.shtml#At what temperature

>...and they operate at much higher temperatures!

Incorrect. According to the "Operating Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf
Double-Muffle Incinerating Furnace" the operating temperature for the
furnaces at Auschwitz was between 800°C to 1100°C. (cf. Presac,
_Technique_, p136.) 

That's 1472°F to 2012°F. A range only marginally lower to somewhat higher
than the operating temperature of modern crematoria furnaces, Mr. Swiger.

> Plus, the cremation remains, (bones that do not burn) must be
> mechanically pulverized. 

The Nazis _did_ have the remains pulverized, Mr Swiger. According to
Ho"ss's memoirs: 

"During the period when the fires were kept continuously burning without a
break, the ashes fell through the grates and were constantly removed and
crushed to powder.... (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.45.) 

This is corroborated by Danuta Czech:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
June 7 [1944]

The management of the crematoriums in Auschwitz II orders four sieves from
the DAW for sifting through human ashes. The sieves are to be equipped
with an iron frame. The openings of the sieve screens are to be 2/5 inch
in size.**

** A former prisoner and member of the Special Squad, Szlama Dragon,
states during the H"oss Trial that the ashes of the burned corpses are
taken from the pits near the crematoriums, ground fine in special mortars,
and taken to the Sola River (APMO, Dpr.-ZO/28a, p. 127). 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p 642; cf. APMO, IZ-13/89, Various
Documents of the Third Reich, p. 205, Invoice Copy for Bookkeeping
(origional in BA Koblenz).

> Chuck, you live in a world of make believe. Grow up!

Mr. Swiger, given the evidence of your utter ignorance on these matter in
light of your specious claims, it is apparent that _you_ are living "in a
world of make believe" and not Mr. Ferree!

> > Crunching the numbers backward, we discovered that
> >>the Germans were cremating a body every 6.24 minutes (modern
> >>crematories take from 1 to 3 hours to this!).
> >
> >That's not the case in every cremation. That is a blanket statement. 
> >Don't do that.
> 
> Well you just show me information where modern commercial crematories
> can do otherwise. Do it now. I searched the Web and found quite a few
> sites that offered all the details. 

And yet you offer _nothing_ (but copious hot air) in support of your
(specious) claims. 

BTW, Mr. Swiger, is it not "odd" that you "missed" the Internet Cremation
Society's FAQ in your "search?" 

Their URL is:  http://www.cremation.org/

And I would direct you specifically to:

http://www.cremation.org/faq.shtml#At what temperature

> > measured 5 meters by 5 meters and were 1.9 meters
> >>high. Tests have shown that it is sometimes possible to get 10 very
> >>thin individuals onto a 1 sqaure meter area. Therfore, the most that
> >>could have fit into this "gas chamber" would be 250 victims. Dividing
> >>12,000 (the number of bodies alleged to have been cremated daily) by
> >>250 we find that the National Socialists would have to conduct 48
> >>"gassings" in a 24 hour period. That's 30 minutes per "gassing" around
> >>the clock for as long as the 12,000 bodies per day were supposedly
> >>being cremated. Its also important that were assume the crematories,
> >>and every oven, were operating at a 100% duty cycle. 
> >
> >Cliff, I've read these numbers from every so-called denier from Giwer 
> >to Moran, and this is just math. Doesn't prove anything. 
> 
> I really can't believe you'd make such an ignorant statement.... 

How amusing (and hypocritical) that sounds coming from person who _excels_
at making ignorant statements! 

> The engineering sciences are based upon the proofs of mathematics. You're
> self destructing, Chuck

And yet you offer _nothing_ (but copious hot air) in support of your
(specious) claims, Mr. Swiger. Why is that? 

> >>There has NEVER been a demonstrative "gas chamber" described by anyone
> >>that is feasible in engineering. Now you show me this evidence you
> >>have RIGHT NOW!
> >
> >List, pal, don't get pushy or you can just stick it all in your ear.
> 
> Getting mad, Chuck?

It would be understandable, Mr. Swiger, considering that you've offered
_nothing_ (but copious hot air) in support of your (specious) claims.
Especially so when the fact that you have been given evidence (complete
with source citations) to the contrary is taken into consideration. 

But then, it has become painfully obvious, Mr. Swiger, that you have no
interest in facts, evidence, _or_ "engineering sciences" when fabricating
claims for your specious propaganda. 

> > And, gas chambers at Mauthausen?? Even your Jewish
> >>idol Simon Wisenthau admitted in "Stars and Stripes", January 24, 1993
> >>that "there were no extermination camps on German soil." Are you
> >>calling him liar, Chuck?
> >
> >No, and Cliff, either you keep this clean and don't get shitty with 
> >me, or fuck off right now!!! 
> 
> You said there was a gas chamber at Mauthausen which is in Germany. If
> there was one, I assume it was used to gas Jews. Simple Simon
> Wisenthau says there were NO EXTERMINATION CAMPS ON GERMAN SOIL.
> You're obviously calling the man a liar as he would have surely known
> about it.

Your utter ignorance (and duplicity) aside, Mr. Swiger, Mauthausen was
never claimed to be an extermination camp by historians -nor to my
knowledge by Mr. Wiesenthal (or the Simon Wiesenthal Center). Mauthausen
was designated by the Nazis as a catagory III concentration camp,
"indicating that it was a special penal camp with a harsh regimen." (cf.
USHMM, _Historical Atlas of the Holocaust_, p.150.) 

Furthermore, Mr. Swiger, according to the (Historical Atlas of the
Holocaust_: "Along the outer wall [at Mauthausen], opposite the roll call
square (Appellplatz), were several stone buildings for camp services
(kitchen, showers, and laundry). The camp prison (Bunker) and gas chamber
were also in these buildings.... Periodically, prisoners in the Mauthausen
camp system underwent selection. Those the Nazis deemed too weak or sick
to work were seperated from the other prisoners and killed in either
Mauthausen's own gas chamber, in mobile gas vans, or at the nearby
Harthein 'euthanasia' killing center..."  (Ibid., pp. 150-151.) 

Unsuprisingly, Mr. Feree was correct in saying that Mauthausen had a gas
chamber. And you, Mr. Swiger, as usual, were blowing smoke out your
posterior. 

Additionally, Mr. Siger, your specious claim that Mauthausen was an
extermination camp is further refuted, ironically enough, by the Simon
Wiesenthal Center in regards to their definition of "death camp" (i.e.
extermination camp):

"A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration camp with special
apparatus specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such camps
existed: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor,
Treblinka. All were located in Poland."

Source: http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/36quest1.htm#6

Given that those deported to Mauthausen were _not_ subject to immediate
"selection" on arrival and gassed en masse as they were at the Operarion
Reinhard and Auschwitz extermination camps, one cannot (honestly) claim
that the purpose of Mauthausen was specifically for systematic mass murder
as it was at the extermination camps in Poland. Finally, considering that
the Nazis catagorized Mauthausen as concentration (penal) camp _and_ that
the numbers of those who died at Mauthausen (about 70,000 deaths among
registered prisoners between 1938 and 1945) was minute when comapred to
the numbers that died (i.e killed in the gas chambers) at the
extermination camps, it is rather clear that Mauthausen was _not_ an
extermination camp in the sense that the Operarion Reinhard and Auschwitz
camps were. 

> >>> If you can ever accept the reality I've presented
> >>>> here on crematories,
> >
> >Realities? What realities have you presented? Not one. Crunching some 
> >numbers means nothing...Giwer does it all the time and he don't know 
> >math from shit, Cliff.
> >
> Evidently Mr. Giwer is a man of logic, common sense and reasoning. Not
> someone full of emotion, ego and fantasy like you.

And evidently the Nazi Mr. Swiger, aside from being prone to a bit of
denier ass-kissing, is not playing with a full-deck. 

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, anti-Semitism, absolute intellectual
dishonesty, and his outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan 12 06:34:27 PST 1997
Article: 92431 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deliberate Deceptions: Facts and Fallacy
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:41:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes:
> 
> # In bright daylight on June 8, with no other combat
>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> # taking place nearby, Israeli warplanes and torpedo
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> # boats repeatedly attacked the U.S. intelligence ship
> # Liberty off the Sinai coast,
> 
> Isn't this stretching it just a bit too far?
> 
> Have you ever heard about the so-called "Six Day War"?
> It was a full-scale war between Israel and Egypt, Syria,
> and Jordan; and it took place between June 5 and June 11.
> 
> The Liberty was sent into a war zone; it was a mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>               COMMUNICATIONS CONCERNING U.S.S. LIBERTY
> 
>  "During the afternoon of June 7th, the Joint Chiefs of Staff decided
> to reposition U.S.S Liberty to move her further away from from the
> coasts of the belligerent nations. In implementing that decision, a
> series of five messages from JCS and U.S commanders in the European
> Command were directed to U.S.S Liberty and other addresses. None of
> these messages had reached Liberty by 1200Z hours on June 8th, 13.5
> hours after the first message was released for transmission. The
> circumstances surrounding the misrouting, loss and delay of these
> messages constitute one of the most incredible failures of
> communications in the history of the Department of Defense".
> 
> 
> 
> The ship was erroneously sent into a war zone. It was then
> misidentified and attacked. Israel had no reason whatsoever
> to attack the ship of an ally.
> 
> Such tragedies happen during wars. In a well-known incident,
> an Israeli F4 Phantom jet erroneously attacked an Israeli
> convoy, in June 1982, during the military operation in
> Lebanon. 25 Israeli soldiers were killed. And we all know
> about the "friendly fire" incidents in the Gulf War, resulting
> in coalition troops being killed by other coalition members.
> 
> It really makes one sick to see how Nazis and "Holocaust
> revisionists" use the Liberty tragedy for their own hateful
> cause. This is a grave insult to the memory of the American
> sailors who died on the ship.
> 
> 
> -Danny Keren.

Indeed. However, that these craven Nazis would twist the Liberty incident
as they do should come as no suprise. After all, Nazis have history of
using proganada, lies, and violence for their hateful causes. Even unto
the murder of their own. 

They make jackals look positively saintly. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan 12 07:09:29 PST 1997
Article: 55524 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Who the Hell are these guys?
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:08:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 57
Message-ID: 
References: <199701082301.PAA23108@mailmasher.com> <32D66147.7BC0@phoenix.net> <32dda082.3307260@news.inetport.com>
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In article <32dda082.3307260@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:

> Doc Tavish  wrote:
> 
> >Mark Raven wrote:
> >> 
> >> Mike Curtis wrote:...
> >> >
> >> > WE WANT TO RULE THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!  There is a major problem. We don't
> >> > ever agree with each other. We aren't associated in any way. There are
> >> > no profits made. No one gets paid. So why worry, be happy.
> >
> >For the first time a Marxist honestly and publicly states his agenda.
> 
> You betcha, Tavich of Houston, that's what we want. Absolutely, all
> one of me. :-) 

You the other brothers didn't vote? ;-) 

> >Yes you squids
> 
> I'm a shellback actually. (It's a Naval thing)
> 
> > may have disagreements among yourselves but you have
> >always compromised with each other for one common goal- subduing
> >gentiles with global Communism!
> 
> What is Communism? What is communism? What is Leninism? What is
> Marxist-Lenninism?

A whipping boy for Nazis and other assorted fascists? 

> 
> > Am I right comrade?
> 
> Beats me, Tavish.  I frankly do my best to pay my bills on a
> month to month basis.
> 
> > Many a commie did
> >his job from deication and no or low pay- that's the blinding aspects of
> >Communism. :-)
> >
> 
> What is Communism? What is communism? What is Leninism? What is
> Marxist-Lenninism?

A stalking horse for Nazis and other assorted fascists? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan 12 07:14:38 PST 1997
Article: 92446 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Bad Chuck Feree Gene
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:46:10 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <5ba1ih$jic@juliana.sprynet.com>
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In article <5ba1ih$jic@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> 1.  Lying
> 2.  Drinking excessive amounts of cheap gin
> 3.  Gloating over killing thousands of civilians during the second world war.
> 4.  Posting slander
> 5.  Posting libel
> 6.  Posting perverted filth


Tsk tsk. Such despicable vices Mr. Belling has. Or perhaps they are Mr.
Belling's New Year's resolutions? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan 12 18:11:20 PST 1997
Article: 92469 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!colloquy.apple.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:20:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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Message-ID: 
References:  <5abt9g$hlr@juliana.sprynet.com> <5arkqh$f12$1@gruvel.une.edu.au>
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In article <5arkqh$f12$1@gruvel.une.edu.au>, ibokor@metz.une.edu.au
(ibokor) wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> : 
> : COMMENT:  Gosh, that's funny.....I always thought that Hitler enlisted
> : in the German army and was highly decorated for bravery under fire.  
> : 
> 
> Hitler was an Austrian. He managed to avoid miltitary service in
> Austria by dint of the fact that he moved to Munich before World
> War I. He avoided enlisting in his country's army when war broke
> out. He joined a reserve infantry regiment. He served as a 
> headquarters runner and received two Iron Crosses. He was wounded
> and the victim of a gas attack.
> 
> He *was* a "draft-dodger" from Austria and a miltary enthusiasat in
> Germany. He was bright and clever enough to reach the rank of
> corporal by the end of the war.

And let's not forget that his comrades-in-arms thought he was a sourpuss....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan 12 18:11:21 PST 1997
Article: 92473 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: National Socialist/Racialist info needed
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:12:05 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 49
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In article <5b6fj4$dmp@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

> talisman@synapticon.com wrote:
> : 
> : I am a student in the Netherlands, and we are buried under
> : foreign mud-race filth.  
> 
> Hold on.  We're sending the Saint Bernards.
> 
> : I do not know if the stink of their
> : bodies or the screams of their voices is worse.  Adolf Hitler
> : was right, and I only wish he had been allowed to finish his
> : work.  
> 
> Oh, sorry.  I didn't realize you were evil.  One shouldn't try to
> joke with evil people.
> 
> : We in the Netherlands face Kike laws to suppress free speech.  We
> : are prevented from discussing the holocaust lie, and other Jew
> : lies and schemes.  We must fight them!  I would appreciate any information 
> : you could send me;  flyers, cartoons, anything.  If you need money first,
> : send me mail and tell me how much.
> 
> : My account is at University, so I must not get e-mail there;  a
> : friend is posting this for me.  Please just send the information
> : by regular mail.
> : 
> : Thank you.
> : 
> : Evert jan Benz
> : nijensteinheerd 58
> : 9736 TD  Groningen
> : Nethderlands
> 
> Hey!  My wife's family comes from Groningen.  They're real smart,
> decent people.  How come you turned out to be such a boob?

He was a crack baby? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan 12 18:11:22 PST 1997
Article: 92522 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Cliff Swiger's Doin' the National Alliance Two-Step
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:10:45 -0700
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In article <32d86b41.13948771@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> On 11 Jan 1997 08:48:02 -0800, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
> OBC) wrote:
> 
> >In article <32d72f09.432235958@news.dmsc.net>, 
> >cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
> >
> >>I'll be quite forward here. The U.S. major media is controlled by
> >>Ashkenazi Jews. One is a fool to argue otherwise and it might be

[Mr. Swiger's bigoted Nazi spew snipped]

>> >(Where have we heard that opinion expressed before? Ah, yes, it's
> >That Old National Alliance Two-Step, as danced by William "Trust
> >me, stupid white person" Pierce and his National Alliance rat
> >pack... why am I not surprised?)
> 
> You're either ignorant or a liar. As I said, the FACT is that
> Ashkenazi Jews do indeed control the major media here in the U.S. 
> 
> >As he has made this claim, I assume that he is now prepared to 
> >substatiate it by providing the answers to the questions which follow.
> 
> >   How many newspaper publishers are there in North America?
> >   How many are privately held?
> >   How many of those are held by Jewish investors?
> >   How many are traded on the exchange?
> >   How many are held by controlling Jewish investors?
> >   How large is their market share?
> 
> As I write,I do not know the answers to these these questions. 

And yet Mr. Swiger, in acknowledged ignorance, claims that it is _fact_
"that Ashkenazi Jews do indeed control the major media here in the U.S."

Incredible. Stupidty in action. And anti-Semitism, lest we forget. 

[Mr. Swiger's bigoted Nazi spew snipped]

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, anti-Semitism, absolute intellectual
dishonesty, and his outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jan 12 19:40:36 PST 1997
Article: 214410 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
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Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 07:14:05 PST 1997
Article: 92596 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Simple Test
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 03:48:18 -0700
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In article <5b6ebs$a83$5@news.nyu.edu>, fresh@scscomm.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

> Doc Tavish  wrote:
> 
> >Caesar wrote:
> >> 
> >> Criminals are the crime problem - not just one race of people.
> 
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Email:Caesar@augur.demon.co.uk
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> >Caesar let me put it to you another way. Let's take a simple one
> >question multiple choice test and see if you can get the correct answer.
> 
> >Question: Which population group in the past forty years has rioted,
> >burned entire sections of major cities, and in the process looted,
> >murdered and purposely assaulted people of other races?
> 
> >1) American Ku Klux Klan
> >2) National Alliance
> >3) National Rifle Assn. members
> >4) Rush Limbaugh listeners
> >5) Militias
> >6) Anti-Semites
> >7) Revisionists
> >8) Whites
> >9) Independent White Racialists
> >10) Blacks
> 
> To some degree all of the above; expand it out to 100 years, and it is
> DEFINITELY all of the above.

You forgot labor unions. };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 07:14:06 PST 1997
Article: 92627 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 12:59:40 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <61kroOev14CU065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Holger Skok wrote:
> 
> >So, what's Prussic Blue exactly? 
> 
> Oh you are referring to the small error made by the translator of the
> Luftl Report.

"Small error?" (Hehe!) Ok, Mr. Kreiberg, what was the "small error"
(besides an alleged typo) in regards to Prussian Blue in the Luftl Report?


> >How high are lethal doses of Cyanide gas for
> >       a) lice
> >       b) humans?
> 
> Haven't we had that discussion?

Many times. You still haven't seemd to get clued in on it though. Perhaps
another attempt is in order?  

> >How long an exposure to that concentration is
> >needed for killing
> >       a) lice
> >       b) humans?
> >
> 
> We have discussed all that.

Many times. You still haven't seemd to get clued in on it though. Perhaps
another attempt is in order?  

> >What about the different gassing chambers - are you
> >going to tell us again (falsely) that they did not have
> >ventilation equipment? (And why would at least one
> >of them have been outfitted with WOODEN fans?)
> >
> 
> I have never talked about wooden fans.

Too bad. You would have been right for one. Nevertheless, _are_ you "going
to tell us again (falsely) that they [Kremas II and III] did not have
ventilation equipment?"

> >And will we be treated to your "exploding corpses" again?
> >
> 
> My "exploding corpses"? Oh you are referring to Zundels article about 
> Ivan Lagace testimony.

Indeed, Mr. Kreiberg. The one that blew up in your face from your flogging
it  so profusely.... 

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Kreiberg's  ignorant
Holocaust denial, vile  Nazi beliefs, absolute intellectual dishonesty,
and his outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/k/kreiberg.ole

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/k/kreiberg.ole/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/k/kreiberg.ole/1995/deporting-danes
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/k/kreiberg.ole/1996/deporting-danes
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/k/kreiberg.ole/1996/the-krakowski-lie


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 07:14:07 PST 1997
Article: 92631 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!clay.se.highway1.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:55:57 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <5asf9g$ftb@explorer2.clark.net>, karlpov@explorer2.clark.net
(Charles Power) wrote:

> kblewitt@ix.netcom.com(Kenneth T. Blewitt) writes:
> 
> >Charles Power wrote:
> 
> >>How did Faurisson (I believe this is the correct spelling, which you
> >>consistently mangle, which leads me to believe you haven't so much as
> >>had the actual pamphlet in your hands know about this "amazing"
> >>relevation [that none of the camps on German soil had been
> >>extermination camps]?  Did Broszat tell Faurisson personally?  Or is
> >>there some source in print where we can confirm just what Broszat
> >>said?
> 
> >    Here is a quote from Faurisson's pamphlet:
> >    "This startling news [that there were no extermination camps in the
> >Old Reich] was given in a simple letter to the editor [written by
> >Broszat, a high ranking official of Germany's Institute for
> >Contemporary History] which was published in the weekly newspaper _Die
> >Zeit_ 19 August, 1960, p.16).
> 
> Why does Faurisson call this "startling news"? And how did your previous
> representation of this "startling news" mutate from the complete absence
> of gas chambers to the absence of "extermination" camps in the Old Reich?
> Which did Broszat claim? Which did Faurisson claim he claimed? Is there
> by any chance a gap between the two? If so, why?
> 
> >>I have a book by a U.S. Army physician who spent time at Dachau
> >>shortly after the liberation.  He saw a gas chamber there.  Why should
> >>I believe that Broszat's information is any better than this
> >>eyewitnesses's?

Considering that the Institute for Contemporary History revised its
earlier conclusion it's a moot point now. It appears that _both_ the
Institute's later conclusions and Dr. Larsen's accounts regarding
homicidal gassings at Dachau are credible. See: 

http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/ifz/ifz.report
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/larson.charles/gassings-at-dachau

Additionally, Dr. Frantisek Blaha, a Czech physician assigned to care for
prisoners at Dachau (and do autopsies for Rascher) stated at the IMT in
Nuremberg that experimental homicidal gassigs took place at Dachau. (cf.
Kogon, _Nazi Mass Murdr_, pp.203-204.) 

> >    Broszat was not a revisionist.  In the pamphlet that you question
> >whether I possess or have ever seen, Faurisson writes, "No official
> >historical institute has done more than the Institute fur
> >Zeitgeschichte (Institute for Contemporary History) to make the myth of
> >the 'gas chambers' believable."
> 
> The copious existence of testimony and physical evidence is a bit more
> decisive than any activity by this Institute.

Indeed. However, the Institute for Contemporary History has been dilligent
in its research. The Institute, for example, amended their earlier
conclusions regarding homicidal gassings at Dachau:

"Dachau (Upper Bavaria, northeast of Munich): During the establishment of
a new house of cremation in 1942 also a gas chamber was established in it
in which in connection with the medical experiments of the chief company
commander of SS Dr. Rascher also a few experimental gassings were undertaken,
as more recent research has confirmed. (On that see Gunther Kimmel:
The Concentration Camp Dachau. A study of the Nazi crimes of violence in
Bavaria in the NS-time II, edited by Martin Broszat and Elke Froehlich,
Munich, R. Oldenburg Press, 1979, P. 391.) Larger gassing operations
have not taken place in Dachau."

See: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/ifz/ifz.report

> >    I did not quote the whole quote made in Staglich's _The Auschwitz
> >Myth_ of Broszat's statement, by the way, since what I was writing
> >about at the time were confessions at Ravensbruck.  Here is what I
> >omitted of Staglich's quote of Broszat's statement:
> >    "Neither in Dachau nor Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or
> >other inmates gassed.  The gas chamber at Dachau was never finished and
> >put into operation ... "

See: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/ifz/ifz.report

> Gee, looks like you were, er, diddling a bit with the facts as you
> knew them when you previously referred to the absence of a gas chamber
> at Dachau. Now you say that the Nazis started to build one, but didn't
> finish--so I guess it's not supposed to count? It's always been
> acknowledged on this newsgroup that the Dachau gas chamber was never
> used on a large scale, and may never have been used at all. Dachau
> nonetheless managed to attain an impressive fatality rate by other
> measures, even if it is not technically labelled an "extermination" camp.
> The fact that one was under construction, however, certainly does much
> to demonstrate the intentions of the builders, doesn't it?

Not to mention, for instance, letting thousands of prisoners die from an
easily preventable disease: Typhus.  

> >>Given your acknowledged antisemitism (I must say that it's refreshing
> >>to see one of you out of the closet on this question) ....
> 
> >    I am sure that what you conceive by "antisemitism" and what
> >actually lives in my heart and mind are far from being identical.  Let
> >me add, I prefer Arnold Leese's term, "Jew wisdom."
> 
> I really don't care what you prefer. "Antisemitism" was cooked up by
> one of your thug ideological ancestors. 

Indeed. Wilhelm Marr (circa 1870). He was "an unsuccessful journalist who
blamed the Jews for his professional failure." He found his calling in
publishing proto anti-Semitica. His _Der Seig des Judentums u"ber das
Germanentum_ (1873) was evidently a hit with the German Volkist crowd.
(cf. Dawidowiscz, _War Against the Jews_,  p.34.) 

> It's worn out its welcome among
> you scum, so no doubt you're trying to find another euphemism. That 
> won't work either.

Indeed. But Mr. Blewitt, being a dilligent, if uninspiring, Holocaust
denier, will undoubtably continue turning the crank on his propaganda
organ. 

Or stepping on it. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 08:06:22 PST 1997
Article: 92636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!clay.se.highway1.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'll ask again: Why is Holocaust denial a "bad thing"? (Was: Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:15:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References: <32dc833c.16541927@199.0.216.204> <32D1A6BC.7716@ibm.net> <5astgr$j1b@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <01bbffe6$33deeff0$4c7213cc@server>
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In article <01bbffe6$33deeff0$4c7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
 wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
> ...
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
> > blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
>                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I'll ask again: Why is "Holocaust denial" in and of itself a bad thing?
> Never mind the "anti-Semitism", which is clearly hate. This I can
> understand. But what about simple denial? Here you are clearly implying it
> is somehow morally and/or ethically wrong. Why?
> 
> [the rest snipped]

Because Holocaust denial denigrates the historical record of the Holocaust
with specious propaganda, puerile fabrications, and blatant deceits. It is
an attempt to murder history and thereby, if successful, undo the (harsh)
lessons learned from it. 

Such actions, by any reasonable standard today, are clearly unethical and
the puporposes for which such actions are committed are immoral. 

Clear enough? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 18:21:24 PST 1997
Article: 92724 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:16:49 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
 wrote:

[snip]

> Ha! Forget it, Ourobouros. These guys at Nizkor believe that have a moral,
> ethical and legal right to archive information in such a manner that can
> easily lead messages to be misconstrued and twisted as to their original
> intent....

Translation: Mr. Sabatini is whining because his and others' vile
Holocaust denial, Nazi apologia, anti-Seitism etc is archived and easily
available to the general (Net) public. Mr. Sabatini, and moral miscreants
like him, seems particularly peeved that his fabrications, distortions,
and insults, etc can be ferreted out and brought back to haunt him by
using the truth in the analysis and detailed refutation of his propaganda.

This is hardly suprising, considering the following:

"The function of propaganda is, for example, not to wiegh and ponder the
rights of different people, but exclusively to emphasize the one right
which it has set out to argue for. Its task is not to make an objective
study of the truth, in so far as it favors the enemy, and then set it
before the masses with academic fairness; its task is to serve our own
right, always and unflinchingly." (Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p.182.)

[Mr. Sabatini's pathetic whining snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 19:00:48 PST 1997
Article: 92728 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:43:34 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 84
Message-ID: 
References:  <5aq05q$6cb@juliana.sprynet.com> <32D1A496.2C59@ibm.net>
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In article <32D1A496.2C59@ibm.net>, Gord McFee  wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> > 
> >    dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> [deleted]
>  
> >  You posted zero evidence that, for instance, one accused SS-men
> >  or women who testified in the Belsen Trial was tortured. You
> >   posted zero evidence that any of the numerous SS-men, who testified
> >   in the trials held by the German legal system, was tortured or
> >   mistreated in any way whatsoever.
> > 
> > I believe I have posted evidence in the past that Kramer was mistreated and
> > tortured, and that his original detailed statement denied the existence of 
> > gas chambers. 

Incorrect. What Mr. Belling posted was that "it was also alleged that
Josef Kramer was tortured" and that he would "get around to posting all
the details soon, complete with full references." [1]

To date, as usual, Mr. Belling has not appeared, when searching DejaNews
for references to "Kramer" and "torture" by Mr. Belling, to have gotten
around "to posting all the details soon, complete with full references." 

However, when the miscreant Mr. Baron stated that he had "found no
evidence that Kramer was "tortured" by the British, although he was
ill-treated." Mr. belling replied to this that he would "not argue with
that" and that "mistreatment can be a form of torture" and that he "didn't
mean to imply that he [Kramer] was stretched on the rack." [2]

The backpedaling begins. 

> > As I do not regard the gas chambers as a reality at this 
> > point, anything they may have said to corroborate it after their 
> > "interrogation" is simply irrelevant--as irrelevant as anything Jews had to 
> > say about Jewish ritual murder.
> 
> Mr. Blackmore, this is a bit much.  You can't dismiss evidence on the
> sole ground that you disagree with it.  

Yes, Mr. Belling _can_ "dismiss evidence on the sole ground that" he
"disagree[s] with it." Of course, given such a solipsistic mentality, one
can _also_ simply dismiss Mr.Belling  as a mental fruitcake and his
phatasmic "proofs" as the product of a disturbed mind.... 

> Please grow up.

Indeed. A measure of rationality (and honesty) would also be a welcome
change as well. 

1. cf. Message-Id: <53g06u$peu@juliana.sprynet.com>
2. cf. Message-Id: <53s0hj$18a@juliana.sprynet.com>


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

> 
> 
> --
> Gord McFee
> I'll write no line before its time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 19:00:48 PST 1997
Article: 92729 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:50:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References:  <5avm4j$dmc@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5avm4j$dmc@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
>   Now, If Mr. Belling wishes to discuss _why_ I consider his puerile claims
>   worthy of nothing but the breifest dismissals, I suggest he:
>   
>   1. Provide credible and authorative references to substantive evidence
>   that Kramer was "mistreated and tortured" into confessing. 
>   
>   2. Provide credible and authotative references to substantive evididence
>   that Kramer denied the existance of homicadal gas chambers at Auchwitz
>   II-Birkenau.
>     3. See a mental health professional in regard to his delusional
state of mind. 
>   
>   For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
>   Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
>   please visit:
> 
> 
> COMMENT:  If I ever decide to see a mental health professional about the state
> of my mind, I will be sure to avoid the one you are seeing...he/she is only 
> making you worse.--rb

Er, was that an insult? I can't tell for sure 'cause it was so lame. Poor
Mr. Belling, when challenged to back his big mouth up with evidence, has
to resort to (lame) juvenile retorts instead because he _can't_ back his
big mouth up with evidence!

Speaking of "juvenile" for those interested in Mr. Belling's "juvenile"
escapades, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 20:42:30 PST 1997
Article: 92747 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:04:42 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 68
Message-ID: 
References: <32d0749d.20252601@news.dmsc.net> <32D3A218.1027@rio.com> <32d4830d.257109387@news.dmsc.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , scholz@watsci.uwaterloo.ca
(Guenter A. Scholz) wrote:

> Daniel Keren  wrote:
> >
> >cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
> ># 12,000 bodies per day were "going up the stacks" at
> ># Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> >
> >Why can't you "revisionists" handle third-grade math? On
> >the average, far less people than 12,000 were killed daily
> >
> >Why do you have to keep posting such incredibly idiotic
> >articles, proving that you are both very ignorant and
> >extremely stupid? Do you get a pleasure out of this? How
> >odd.
> >
>         In all fairness, Daniel, right or wrong, Swiger used as a source for
> this a respected US newspaper (Boston Globe I seem to remember but not sure
> anymore). 

Mr. Scholz, the issue neither starts nor ends with with Mr. Swiger
allegedly using a "respected US newspaper" for this "12,000" number. The
issue is about Mr. Swigers _distortion_ of what this number means and how
it was achieved. The fact, is, Mr. Scholz, the validity of this "12,000"
number is supported by historical evidence. A fact that Mr. Swiger
studiously "ignores."

> Sooooo, it would seem that `such incredibly idiotic articles' should
> not be written in newspapers in the first place.  

Why do _you_ conclude this, Mr. Scholz? The First Amendment most certainly
protects the publishing of "such incredibly idiotic articles." After all,
one is _not_ forced to read them.... (Or take them seriously.) 

> I wonder, does anyone who participates in these `discussions' ever try to 
> correct the nonsense printed in the newspapers in the first place so that Mr. 
> Swiger does not have an argument at all?

The fallacy here, Mr. Scholz, is that you assume that Mr. Swiger is simply
using "nonsense printed in the newspapers." The cited number of "12,000"
killed per day is not "nonsense." In this particular case, he is using
nothing more than nonsense created in the vacuum between his ears. 

>         Why does the US media so often have a `need' to exaggerate what is
> terrible enough in the first place and thereby giving birth to these nonsense
> discussions of `arithmetic'.

Mr. Scholz, who said this "12,000" number was exaggerated by the "US
media?" There is historical evidence that supports such a number.

>         Specifically, Daniel, why do you not address the SOURCE of this mis-
> information?

Why don't _you_, Mr.Scholz, if you are so concrened? (Hint: the "source"
really isn't a newspaper, but published works from historians in regard to
the historical record.)  More importantly, why did't Mr. Swiger research
this? Why didn't _you_ ask Mr. Swiger why he didn't? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 22:34:41 PST 1997
Article: 92754 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Where Are These Super Ovens Designed by the Super Race?
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:57:40 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 144
Message-ID: 
References: <32D42419.70EE@rio.com> <32d5d307.343132460@news.dmsc.net> <32d660b5.88778321@news.zilker.net> <32D6B314.1B0E@phoenix.net> <32D6713D.1936@rio.com>  <32d863d3.12045632@news.dmsc.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92754 soc.culture.german:94151

In article <32d863d3.12045632@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:47:09 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
> Alstine) wrote:
> 
> >In article <32D6713D.1936@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:
> 
> >Actually, one may find an intact Topf coke-fired double-muffle furnace in
> >KL Mauthausen today. It was built under the New Hospital at KL Mauthhausen
> >in July of 1944. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.110-111.) 
> 
> Hi Mark: What individuals, like Ferree here, fail to EVER accept is
> that the technology in circa 1940 could in no way ever have achieved
> such exaggerated cremation rates. 

Incorrect. There are many eywitness accounts that indicate that mulitple
bodies were charged per muffle. The Nazis themselves calculated that, for
example, the furnaces of Krema II could incinerate 1440 corpses per 24
hour period. Now, given that Krema II had five Topf triple-muffle
furnaces, that meant 1440 corpses in 15 muffles every 24 hours. That's 96
coprses incinerated per muffle in 24 hours. That's four corpses per hour,
or two corpses every 30 minutes. 

Now, Mr. Swiger, please demonstrate, using the "engineering sciences,"
that two corpses _cannot_ be incinerated in 30 minutes in a muffle of a
Topf coke-fired triple-muffle furnace. 

> I've permitted these illusionists...

You've "permitted," Mr. Swiger? My, aren't _you_ full of yourself! What a
pompus ass you are, Mr. Swiger. 

> ...like Ferree, to theoretically stuff 3 to 4 Jews in the "muffles" and
> their claims are still absurd when analyzed with engineering
> techniques. 

Interesting, is it not, that when you are asked again and again to provide
such analysis with "engineering techniques," Mr. Swiger, you are suddenly
silent? Why is that?  

> I really hate to divert here, but Ferree is one of those
> "I'm a WW2 hero" egocentrics. 

Mr. Swiger, given that _your_ chutzpah is matched only by your ignorance
and propensity to lie, I think it rather amusing that you claim that Mr.
Feree is egocentric.

> The man makes claims that he was at various concentration camps and once told 
> me he piloted some top brass into communist occupied Poland after the war. 

Indeed. Mr. Ferree has told others, myself included, much the very same
thing. Yet the only people I have seen accuse Mr. Feree of mispresenting
himself or lying about this has been Holocaust deniers. They have done so
without a shred of evidence to indicate that Mr. Feree was not telling the
truth. 

> Maybe he did? 

See. No shred of evidence. Just unnuendo. A specious "maybe." 

> But it is strange that no Western investigators were permitted to enter this
> area after the war, but old Chuckie Boy and his entourage somehow were
> able to penetrate the Iron Curtain. 

Does Mr. Swiger know what SHAEF stands for? It's not "Western investigators." 

> I took the trouble to wade through Chuck's "stall of horse manure" as
> relates to Topf and Sons' crematoria. He is one of those individuals
> that takes a little fact and mixes it with a a lot of fiction. Sure
> the National Socialists had crematoria but Chuck assumes you'll buy
> into his fabalism and accept that these circa 1940 crematoriums could
> out do state-of-the-art crematoriums by at least a factor of 10. I'm
> marveled by the blatent ignorance of some.

The only ingorance demonstrated so far, Mr. Swiger, is yours. 

> Chuck Writes:

Incorrect. I wrote that Mr. Swiger. Get a clue. 

> >Additionally, one may also find two Topf coke-fired double-muffle furnace
> >in KL Auschwitz today. They were rebuilt after the camp's liberation from
> >parts found in the camp. (cf. Ibid. p.154.) 
> 
> You're darn right they were "rebuilt." But no one was allowed to see
> the reconstruction until the late 1950s. 

So? Does Mr. Swiger see something sinister about the furnaces at Krema I
being rebuilt? 

> And, they were rebuilt by the communists who did a real lousy job due to the 
> fact that there have been 3 forensic analyses at the site....

Incorrect. The furnaces in question were located in the reconstruction of
Krema I, which was at Auschwitz I. The Cracow Forensic Institute's (1945)
report on toxilogical analysis of ventilation plates and vents was in
regards to Krema II, which was located in Auschwitz II-Birkenau. The
report by the Institute  of Forensic Research (1994) concerned Kremas I at
Auschwitz and Krema II-V aT Birkenau. HNC traces were found at _all_ Krema
locations. 

And the third "report?" Well, if this is the "Leuchter Report" then one
can discount its conclusions. The report has been thouroughly discredited
and  Leuchter shown to be a fraud. 

> all of which claim that it was scientifically impossible to have ever gassed 
> individuals there or cremated them at the alleged rate.

Incorrect. The The Cracow Forensic Institute's report (1945) was concerned
with toxilogical anlaysis -not cremation rates. The report clearly
indicated that HCN residues were found in metal ventilation parts
recovered from the ruins of Krema II. The report by Institute of Forensic
Research (1994) likewise was concerned with chemical anlysis regarding HCN
traces. It did not address incineration rates. 

And the "Leuchter Report?" Discredited denier propaganda. 

However, there _was_ a report, evidently done just after the war ended,
that concerned itself with the cremation capacity of the Kremas at
Auschwitz. It was done by Dr. Roman Dawidowski, a professor at the Acadamy
of Mining and Metallurgy in Cracow. Dr. Dawidowski calculated that the
about 5,000 corpses per 24 hours could be incinerated in Krema II and III.
He aslo calculated that about 3,000 corpses could be incinerated in Kremas
IV and V per 24 hours. (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.45fn.) 

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, anti-Semitism, absolute intellectual
dishonesty, and his outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jan 13 23:20:34 PST 1997
Article: 92765 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.64.182.7!news.thenet.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nikzor's Mike Stein
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:40:36 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References: <32cf5161.232920880@news.dmsc.net> <5aqa8r$pqt@access2.digex.net> <32d1fcd2.91649665@news.dmsc.net> <5b1q96$6on@explorer2.clark.net> <32d5d9d1.344871087@news.dmsc.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32d5d9d1.344871087@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

[snip]

> Do try to evade the Diesel issue. If the Germans really had a plan of
> genocide against the Jews they would have come up with a very
> efficient means from the start. 

Mr. Swiger, the killing with CO at the Operation Reinhard death camps, for
example, _was_ efficient. The Nazis killed about 1.7 million Jews using
engine exhaust at these camps from early 1942 to late 1943.

The simple fact was that using C0 as a homidal agent was an outgrowth of
the T-4 program and the use of CO gassing vans in the Ostland. Given that
the key personnel in Operartion Reinhard who were responsible for choosing
the method of  killing came from the T-4 program, it is hardly suprising
that CO was chosen. In fact the first homicidal experiment at Belzec, for
instance used _bottled_ CO (like they did in the "euthanasia" instutions)
to kill the victims. However, Wirth objected to using bottled CO, which
was produced in private factories, and would have to be shipped to Belzac
in large quantities over great distances, on the grounds that it might
arouse suspicions and that it might cause logistical problems. Therefore
he decided to use an internal combustion engine to produce the CO on-site.
(Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp.16-19,24-25,) 

[Mr. Swiger's irrational spew snipped]

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, absolute intellectual dishonesty, and his
outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan 14 02:36:08 PST 1997
Article: 92786 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Swiger's lack of substance
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:40:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 108
Message-ID: 
References: <32D4237D.3FE7@rio.com> <32d5cd4d.341666525@news.dmsc.net>  <32d982db.88723812@news.gte.net> <32d9ceac.32662417@news.dmsc.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92786 soc.culture.german:94173

In article <32d9ceac.32662417@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:37:05 GMT, BOb@the.helm (Brian Oblivion) wrote:
> 
> >>> On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:45:17 +0000, Chuck Ferree 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> >You say disease, hunger and acts of war left a lot of individuals dead 
> >>> >in the various camps near the end of the war. That is true.
> >>> >
> >>> >I ask you to explain what you mean exactly by "acts of war." By whom? 
> >>> >How? What acts of war?
> >>> >
> >>> Bombs, gunfire, grenades, etc.
> >>
> >>And by whom, Mr. Swiger? And when where these "acts of war" taken? 
> 
> Geesh, where do I start? Didn't Chuck Yeager brag about strafing
> German farmers in their fields?

Actually, I believe it was the farmers' cows.... 

> What about the phosphorus bombing of civilians in Dresden? 

Indeed, what about it? Many cities were bombed. The Germans, for instance,
bombed Polish, Dutch, and British cities early in the war. Were these not
"acts of war" as well? Evidendtly not according to Mr. Swiger, who
apparantly is of the opinion that when the Germans do the bombing it's
_not_ an "act of war." 

> And then there's the Lindeman Plan which set out to raze the entire nation of 
> Germany to the ground. 

Doenitz tried too starve the British with his U-boats. War is hell.
Except, according to Mr. Swiger it seems, when the Germans do the
warmaking. 

> Roadways were blown out, railways destroyed, this cut off a lot of 
> transportation whereby food and medical supplies could not be shipped in
areas 
> where it was needed most. Many starved and died of disease.

Like Mu"nster? Which despite being cut-off by the Allied advance, food was
still readily available and epidemics nonexistant? Riiiight.... 

> >>Incorrect. As can been seen below, according to the Danuta Czech, it took
> >>40 minutes to incinerate 45 corpses in the 15 muffles of Krema II. That's
> >>an average of litle over a corspe per minute per muffle. And this was
> >>thought to be "an unexpectedly long time" by the SS and engineers present.
> 
> I'm unfamiliar with this "Danuta Czech" but this claim you print here
> is the most outlandish I've ever heard. 

Really? Try _this_ whopper: "Many [Germans] starved and died of disease."

> Where can I get a copy of this allegation? 

Try a book store.

> It will provide me with good ammunition in future debates.

Uh huh. Swiger the Shiftless Sharpshooter: "Ready! Fire! Aim! OWWWWW! My FOOT!"

> Nonetheless, it takes modern crematories 1 to 3 hours to incinerate a
> corpse and the bones (cremation remains) must still be pulverized.

So? Are you claiming the Nazis at Auschwitz _didn't_ pulverize the remains? 

> Well, these "SS and engineers" telling a whopper of a fib. 

Uh huh. So says Swiger the Ersatz Engineer. 

> The crematories at Auschwitz-Birkenau operated at hundreds of degrees less
> than state-of-the-art models 

Nope. If anything, modern crematoria operate at a slightly _lower_ temperature. 

> ...and they did not employ a direct flame to the corpse.

So? Do you think this must mean the Topf furnaces couldn't? 

> >       UFO abductions are also proven by testimony.  
> 
> Oh my. What this?

Another Elvis sighting? 


For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, anti-Semitism, absolute intellectual
dishonesty, and his outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan 14 10:11:31 PST 1997
Article: 92820 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Charles Power's Closed Mind
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:12:27 -0700
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In article <32d9e254.37695564@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> Cliff Swiger Wrote: 
> > >How do you know what "they were thinking"?
> 
> Charles Power Replied:
> > You were telling us that since the Germans wanted a more
> > efficient way of killing Jews, they would never have bothered
> > with diesel. So it seems you're the one first claiming mind-
> > reading abilities. I applied a mysterious faculty called "common
> > sense" to list several goals which may have come into play other
> > than "efficiency" (killing speed).
> 
> One could brainstorm a number of ways to kill people. 

Indeed. And the Nazis tried a few: Mass shootings; explosives (!); and
poison gas.

Mass shootings by the Einsatzgruppen in the East:



The _Einsatzgruppen_ left behind over one million victims in mass murder
valleys in Ponar near Vilna, Fort IX at Kovno, Rumboli near RIga, Babi Yar
at Kiev, Drobitzki Valley near Kharkov, in the Crimea, and at numerous
other sites in the occupied areas of the Soviet Union.

However, this method of mass murder- shooting the victims in the vicinity
of their homes -raised problems for the Nazi authorities. The shooting of
thousands of people was a slow process, and a large number of SS men were
required for each killing operation. The executions were carried out
simultaneously in hundreds, even thousands of different locations,
rendering it almost impossible to keep them secret from the local
population and prospective victims. Instances of last-minute flight and
even resistance were recorded by the Germans. It was also evident that
what could be done in the occupied areas of the Soviet Union and near the
front lines could not be accomplished so openly in most other European
countries, where negative reactions were to be expected from sections of
the local population. Furthermore, the prolonged exposure of members of
the 
_Einsatzgruppen_ to the murder of women, children, and the elderly
produced a cumulative psychological effect upon some of them and even
caused mental breakdowns.

Himmler was aware of these difficulties. An eyewitness describes what
happened during Himmler's visit to Minsk in late summer of 1941, while
watching the killing of a group of one hundred Jews:

   As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each 
   volley, he looked down at the ground....The other witness was 
   _Obergruppenfu"hrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed 
   Himmler: "_Reichsfu"hrer_, those were only a hundred....Look at the 
   eyes of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those 
   men are finished [_fertig_] for the rest of their lives. What kind 
   of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages." 

As a result of these drawbacks, the SS authorities, who were in charge of
the Nazi extermmination machine, began looking for additional methods and
improved technical means that would enable them to carry out the killings
more efficiently, more quickly, and with less effort...." 



In September 1941, _Einsatzgruppe B_ was faced with the task of
liquidating the patients of the lunatic asylus in the cities of Minsk and
Mogilev. Nebe [1] decided to find a simpler way for his men to kill the
mentally diseased, other than by shooting them. He contacted Kripo
headquarters and asked for their help in carrying out the killing of the
insane with either explosives or poison gas. Dr, Widmann of the Criminal
Police was sent to Nebe in Minsk, but before he left, Dr. Widmann
discussed with the director of the Criminal Police Technological
Institute, Dr. Heess, ways of using the carbon monoxide gas from
automobile exhaust for killing operations in the East, based on experiance
gained from the euthanasia program. Dr. Widmann took to Minsk 400 kg of
explosive material and the metal pipes required for the gassing
installations.

Nebe and Dr. Widmann carried out an experimantal killing using explosives.
Twenty-five mentally ill people were locked into two bunkers in a forest
outside Minsk. The first explosion killed only some of them, and it took
much time and trouble until the second explosion killed the rest.
Explosives therefore were unsatifactory.

A few days later an experiment with poison gas was carried out by Nebe and
Dr. Widmann in Mogilev. In a local lunatic asylum, a room with twenty to
thirty insane was closed hermetically, and two pipes were driven into the
wall. A car was parked outside, and one of the metal pipes that Dr.
Widmann had brought connected the exhaust of the car to the pipe in the
wall. The car engine was turned on and the carbon monoxide began seeping
into the room. After eight minutes, the people in the room were still
alive. A second car was connected to the other pipe in the wall. The two
cars were operated simultaneously, and a few minutes later all those in
the room were dead. 



1. _Einsatzgruppe B_ commander SS _Brigadefu"hrer_ Artur Nebe. 

Source: Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, p.10.


Mobile (CO) gas vans:



The Technical Department of the Reich Security Main Office, headed by SS
_Obersturmbannfu"hrer_ Walter Rauff, developed a special vehicle for
killing purposes. This vehicle resembled an ambulance or refrigirator
truck and contained a hermetically sealed rear cabin. The victims were
placed in the cabin and carbon monoxide was introduced by means of a pipe.
The gassing process took between fifteen and thirty minutes. During this
time the van was driven from the loading site to prepared graves.

Two types of gas vans had been built: a larger one, 5.8 meters in length,
and a smaller one measuring 4.5 meters. Both were about 2.5 meters wide
and 1.7 meters high. The bigger one could accomodate between 130 and 150
poeple, when densely packed inside, and the smaller one from 80 to 100.

The first gas vans were supplied to the _Einsatzgruppen_ and to the
Chelmno death camps in November-Dcember 1941. The killing in CHelmno began
on December 8, 1941. By the middle of 1942, about thirty gas vans had been
produced by a private car manufacturer, the Gabscah Farengewerke GMBH,
Will-Walter Strasse 32-38, Berlin.



Source: Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp.10-11.


First (experimental CO) gassing at Sobibor:



In the middle of April 1942, when the building of Sobibor was close to
completion, experimental killings were carried out there. About 250 Jews
were brought from the Krychow labor camp, which was close to Sobibor, for
this purpose. Wirth arrived in Sobibor to attend these experiments. With
him came a chemist from the euthanasia program whose pseudonym was "Dr.
[Karl] Blaurock." SS _Sharfu"hrer Eric Fuchs, who served in Belzec,
describes the preperations and the first experimantal killing in Sobibor:

   As ordered by Wirth, I drove an LKW [a car] to Lvov, fetched a gas motor 
   and transported it to Sobibor. When I arrived at Sobibor, close to the 
   railway station I saw a tract of land with a concrete construction and 
   some other solid buildings. The _Sonderkommando_ there were commanded by 
   Thomalla. Other members of the SS who attended were F.B. Stangl, F. 
   Schwartz, Kurt Bolender, and others. We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy 
   Russian benzine engine (presumably a tank or tractor motor) at least 200 
   horsepower (V-8motor, 8 cylinders, water cooled), We installed the engine 
   on a concrete foundation and set up the conection between the exhaust and 
   the tube.

   I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the 
   ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The 
   chemist, whom I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with measuring 
   instruments to test the concentration of the gas.

   Following this, a gassing experiment was caried out. If my memory serves 
   me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. 
   The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the 
   gas chamber, and were driven into the gas chamber by the above-mentioned 
   SS members and by the Ukranian auxiliaries. Whe the women were shut up in 
   the gas chamber I and B [Bolender] set the motor in motion. The motor 
   functioned first in neutral. Both of us stood by the motor and switched 
   from "Neutral" (_Freiauspuff_) to "Cell (_Zelle_), so that the gas was 
   conveyed to the chamber. At the suggestion of the chemist, I fixed the motor 
   on a definite speed so that it was unnecessary henceforth to press on the 
   gas. About ten minutes later the thirty to forty women were dead. The 
   chemist and the SS leader gave the sign to sto the motor. I packed my tools 
   and saw how the corpses were removed. The transportation was done with a 
   lorry trail that led from the gas chamber to a remote plot.

After this experiment, which verified the smooth working of the gas
chambers, and with the completion of some other construction work, Sobibor
death camp was ready for its task. [...]



Source: Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp.31-32.) 



First (Zyklon B) gassings at Auschwitz:



Before the mass destruction of the Jews began, all the Russian politruks
[Communist Party members] and political commissars were killed in almost
every camp during 1941 and 1942. According to the secret order given by
Hitler, the Einsatzgruppe [special troops of the SS] searched for and
picked up all the Russian politruks and commissars from all the POW camps.
They transferred all they found to the nearest concentration camp for
liquidation. The reason for this action was given as follows: the Russians
were murdering any German soldier who was a member of the Nazi Party,
especially SS members. Also, the political section of the Red Army had
standing orders to cause unrest in every way in any POW camp or places
where POWs worked. If they were caught or imprisoned, they were instructed
to perform acts of sabotage. This is why these political officials of the
Red Army were sent to Auschwitz for liquidation. The first small
transports were shot by firing squads of SS soldiers.

While I was away on an official trip, my second in command, Camp Commander
Fritzsch, experimented with gas for these killings. He used a gas called
Cyclon B, prussic acid, which was often used as an insecticide in the camp
to exterminate lice and vermin. There was always a supply on hand. When I
returned Fritzsch reported to me about how he had used the gas. We used it
again to kill the next transport.

The gassing was carried out in the basement of Block 11. I viewed the
killings wearing a gas mask for protection. Death occurred in the
crammed-full cells immediately after the gas was thrown in. Only a brief
choking outcry and it was all over. This first gassing of people did not
really sink into my mind. Perhaps I was much too impressed by the whole
procedure.

I remember well and was much more impressed by the gassing of nine hundred
Russians which occurred soon afterwards in the old crematory because the
use of Block 11 caused too many problems. While the unloading took place,
several holes were simply punched from above through the earth and
concrete ceiling of the mortuary. The Russians had to undress in the
antechamber, then everybody calmly walked into the mortuary because they
were told they would be deloused in there. The entire transport fit
exactly in the room. The doors were closed and the gas poured in through
the openings in the roof. How long the process lasted I don't know, but
for quite some time sounds could be heard. As the gas was thrown in some
of them yelled 'Gas!' and a tremendous screaming and shoving started
toward both doors, but the doors were able to withstand all the force. It
was not until several hours later that the doors were opened and the room
aired out. There for the first time I saw gassed bodies in mass. Even
though I imagined death by gas to be much worse, I was still overcome by a
sick feeling of horror. I always imagined death by gas a terrible choking
suffocation, but the bodies showed no signs of convulsions. The doctors
explained to me that the prussic acid paralyzes the lungs.  The effect is
so sudden and so powerful that symptoms of suffocation never appear as in
cases of death by coal gas or by lack of oxygen.

At the time I really didn't waste any thoughts about the killing of the
Russian POWs. It was ordered; I had to carry it out. But I must admit
openly that the gassings had a calming effect on me, since in the near
future the mass annihilation of the Jews was to begin. Up to this point it
was not clear to me, nor Eichmann, how the killing of the expected masses
was to be done. Perhaps by gas? But how, and what kind of gas? Now we had
discovered the gas and the procedure. I was always horrified of death by
firing squads, especially when I thought of the huge numbers of women and
children who would have to be killed. I had enough of hostage executions,
and the mass killings by firing squads ordered by Himmler and Heydrich. 

Now I was at ease. We were all saved from these bloodbaths, and the
victims would be spared until the last moment. This was what I worried
about the most when I thought of Eichmann's accounts of the mowing down of
the Jews with machine guns and pistols by the Einsatzgruppe. Horrible
scenes were supposed to have occurred: people running away even after
being shot, the killing of those who were only wounded, especially of
women and children. Another thing on my mind was the many suicides among
the ranks of the SS Special Action Squads who could no longer mentally
endure wading in the bloodbath. Some of them went mad. Most of the members
of the Special Action Squads drank a great deal to help get through this
horrible work. According to [Captain] Ho"ffle's accounts, the men of
Globocnik's extermination section drank tremendous quantities of alcohol.



Source: Ho"ss, _Death Dealer: the memoirs of the SS Kommandant at
Auschwitz_, pp.155-157.

[snip]

> Cliff Swiger Wrote:
> > >There has
> > >never been produced a workable "gas chamber" as alleged by ANY
> > >Holocaust survivor, witness, or outside source.
> 
> Charles Power Replied:
> > Big surprise, as the Nazis did their best to destroy the evidence
> > as they abandoned the extermination camps. Curiously, there is a
> > fair amount of documentary evidence, including plans for
> > "showers" which are so detailed to include showerheads but
> > somehow manage to overlook any plumbing behind them.
> 
> We have a "reconstructed" version put together for us by the Soviets
> in Poland....

Incorrect. The gas chamber of Krema I was reconstructed by the
Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum. (i.e. the Poles and _not_ the Soviets.)
Also, Mr. Swiger overlooks the fact that the gas chambers at Madjanek were
captured intact. As was the gas chamber at Dachau, and I believe, also
those at Mauthausen and Ravensbru"ck. 

> There have been three forensic tests conducted at this
> "extermination" camp all of which corroborate one another and conclude
> no gassings could have taken place there. 

Would Mr. Swiger care to name these "three forensic tests?" Somehow, I
think we will find both Mr. Swiger and his "three forensic tests" lacking
in the credibility department....

> Yea, I've heard about the showerheads. I've also read eyewitness testimony 
> that WATER came out of those showerheads! Imagine that!

Would Mr. Swiger care to give an explicit cite to this eyewitness
testimony  he read that claimed that water came out of the showeheads in
the gas chambers of the Kremas at Auschwitz?  It is almost certain, I
think, that Mr. Swiger will end up with egg on his face if he does.  

> Charles Power Wrote:
> > >>The particular "story" to which you refer came from an
> > >>eyewitness, Kurt Gerstein. In large part (though with significant
> > >>variations), it was confirmed by another eyewitness.
> 
> Cliff Swiger Replied:
> > >And their testimony would not stand a prayer in a circle of scientists
> > >although it found favor in Nuremberg.
> 
> Charles Power Replied:
> > What circle of scientists, as opposed to ignorant, unqualified
> > denier scum like Leuchter, have ever objected to it?
> 
> How about Walter Luftl and Gemar Rudolf? How do you like your crow?

Walter Luftl? As in the "Luftl Report?" The Holocaust denier who wrote:

"...[T]he victims were 'packed' into the gas chambers and then poisoned
with hydrogen cyanide (Prussian Blue) vapors from Zyklon B."

...Thus demonstrating he does not know there is a marked difference
between hydrogen cyanide (HCN) and Prussian blue, of which the [Fe(Cn)6]-4
ion is the precursor. _That_  Luftl? 

Gemar Rudolf? As in the "Rudolf Report?" The (ex-Max Plank) chemist who
was paid by the Holocaust denier Otto-Ernst to write the report in which
he said: 

"No intelligent (???) person could have the idea of buring people
in graves without introducing fresh air..."

Amazing then that corpses _were_ burnt in pits at Auschwitz. See:

http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/burning-pit.jpg

The same Gemer Rudolf who, in his report was, _also_ rather disengenous
about the evaporation rate of Zyklon B as well? See:

http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rudolf.germar/rudolf-report.001\

_That_ Gemer Rudolf? 

> Charles Power Wrote:
> > >>Depends. You seem to be assuming that the chambers were airtight.
> > >>I don't think Gerstein made such a specification.
> 
> Cliff Swiger Replied:
> > >Well then, just how air tight was it not?
> 
> Charles Power Replied:
> > Gee, Cliff, I don't know. I was trying to point out that our
> > knowledge here is imperfect. Since various objections of yours
> > depend upon premises not in evidence, they fall. I think that's
> > what science is about.
> 
> You mean I can't simply say the "gas chamber" in question was
> hermetically sealed and its accepted as true? 

Not if you don't qualify your claim with something better than "Because I
say So." Take the CO gas chambers at Sobibor, for example Belzec's gas
chamber:



[...]

The second barrack, 25 meters long and 8 meters wide, was for the Jews
dstied for the 'baths.' Not far from this barrack we built a third
barrack, 12 meters lonng and 8 meters wide. This barrack was divided into
three chambers by a wooden wall, so that each chamber was 4 meters wide
and 8 meters long. It was 2 meters high. The inside walls of this barrack
were double boards with a vacant space between filled by us with sand. The
walls inside the barracks were covered with pap. IN addition, the ground
and walls up to 1.10 meters were covered by sheet metal....From the second
to the third led a closed corridor, 2 meters wide, 2 meters high, and 10
meters long. This corridor led to a corridor in the third barrack where
the doors to its three chambers were located. Each chamber of this barrack
had on its northern side a door 1.80 meters high and 1.10 meters wide.
These doors, like those in the corridor, were covered with rubber. All the
doors in this barrack could be opened from the outside only. These doors
were built with strong boards 7.5 cm in diameter and were secured from the
outside with a wooden bar held by two iron hooks against pressure from
inside the barrack. 

In each of the three chambers of this barrack a water pipe was installed
10 cm above the floor. In addition, on the western wall in each chamber in
the corner, was a water pipe 1 meter above the ground, with an open joint,
turned toward the center of the room. These pipes with the joint were
connected through the wall to a pipe that ran under the floor. In each of
the three chambers in this barrack was installed an oven weighing 250 kg.
It was expected that the pipe joint would later be connected with the
oven. The oven was 1.10 meter high, 55 cm wide, and 55 cm long.

[...]



Source: Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, p.25.


Now if I were to say that the gas chambers of Belzec were hermetically
sealed, I would have a basis for saying such. However, it would _also_
point out that there were _two_ pipes leading from the outside into the
gas chambers. The pipe (with joint) turned towards the center of the gas
chamber was the pipe from wich the CO exhaust was piped in. But twhat
about the _other_ pipe? The "water pipe" 10 cm off the floor? Was it a
_water_ "water pipe" or just pipe who gauge was commonly used for water
lines? If the latter then it is likely it could have been an _exahust_
pipe to vent the gas chamber so that an overpressure didn't build up.
This, becuase it was close to the floor and the _hot_ CO gas would have
risen towards the ceiling, could have vented much the breathable air in
the chamber as the incoming CO exhaust would have forced it out the 10 cm
pipe. 

Perhaps then the (CO) gas chambers _weren't_ completely hermetically
sealed after all? Perhaps the Nazis built them otherwise on _purpose_, so
they would kill more effciently? 

What a thought. 

> What if I gathered all the Holocaust deniers together and we all said the 
> "gas chamber" was hermetically sealed? 

You'd sound like herd of (Nazi) sheep bleating? 

> I'm talking mass testimony here, would you accept
> it then? If you don't, why can't you apply the same logic to all that
> pro-Holocaust testimony?

Baaaa baaaa...

> Cliff Swiger Wrote:
> > >Perhaps you would have made a good prosecutor at
> > >Nuremberg but you must remember that the burden of proof is on you to
> > >substantiate the criminal act notwithstanding the mass of "testimony."
> 
> Charles Power Replied:
> > Your wording here is confusing, or more precisely confused, which
> > is fairly typical of deniers. What you seem to want to say is
> > that eyewitness testimony is not evidence. Surprise: eyewitness
> > testimony is what is called in legal circles "direct evidence".
> 
> Oh its evidence. But its not as weighted as physical evidence of which
> there is is practically nil in support of the Jew Holocaust.... 

Baaaa baaaa...

[snip]

> Cliff Swiger Wrote:
> > >                                                 Its true I'm a
> > >Holocaust denier, but I do not think I'm a moron for basing my
> > >conclusions on natural law, engineering principles and standard
> > >criminal procedures in courts of law.
> 
> Charles Power Replied:
> > You base your conclusions on your mindless bigotry and on lies
> > you've been fed from standard denier sources.
> 
> Is that what I said? I can see that science gets under your skin
> too.

Too bad it didn't get (and stay) between Mr. Swiger's ears. 

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, anti-Semitism, absolute intellectual
dishonesty, and his outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan 14 10:11:32 PST 1997
Article: 92849 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Belzec's gas chambers
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:12:23 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5


According to Stanislaw Kozak, a Pole who helped build Belzec:



[...]

The second barrack, 25 meters long and 8 meters wide, was for the Jews
dstied for the 'baths.' Not far from this barrack we built a third
barrack, 12 meters lonng and 8 meters wide. This barrack was divided into
three chambers by a wooden wall, so that each chamber was 4 meters wide
and 8 meters long. It was 2 meters high. The inside walls of this barrack
were double boards with a vacant space between filled by us with sand. The
walls inside the barracks were covered with pap. IN addition, the ground
and walls up to 1.10 meters were covered by sheet metal....From the second
to the third led a closed corridor, 2 meters wide, 2 meters high, and 10
meters long. This corridor led to a corridor in the third barrack where
the doors to its three chambers were located. Each chamber of this barrack
had on its northern side a door 1.80 meters high and 1.10 meters wide.
These doors, like those in the corridor, were covered with rubber. All the
doors in this barrack could be opened from the outside only. These doors
were built with strong boards 7.5 cm in diameter and were secured from the
outside with a wooden bar held by two iron hooks against pressure from
inside the barrack. 

In each of the three chambers of this barrack a water pipe was installed
10 cm above the floor. In addition, on the western wall in each chamber in
the corner, was a water pipe 1 meter above the ground, with an open joint,
turned toward the center of the room. These pipes with the joint were
connected through the wall to a pipe that ran under the floor. In each of
the three chambers in this barrack was installed an oven weighing 250 kg.
It was expected that the pipe joint would later be connected with the
oven. The oven was 1.10 meter high, 55 cm wide, and 55 cm long.

[...]




Source: Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, p.25.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan 14 12:54:51 PST 1997
Article: 92863 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 01:08:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <32D59FC7.52D8@ibm.net> <5b8rip$9og@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5b8rip$9og@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    Gord McFee  writes:
>   Fafner13 wrote:
>  
> Don't forget Doc Keren...
>  
>  It's Dr. Keren.  Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
>  earned the right to be called Dr.
>    
>  Comment:  He has also earned the right to be called other things.
>   
>   Mr. Blackmore, if I were in your shoes right now, I wouldn't be too
>   quick to call people names.
>   
>   --
>   Gord McFee
>   I'll write no line before its time
>   
> >>>>
> Comment:  You are not in my shoes.  if you were, you would be
> singing a different tune.--rb

Indeed. As a castrato. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan 14 12:54:52 PST 1997
Article: 92871 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeeder.toronto.ican.net!visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Chuck re Swiger
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:24:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 81
Message-ID: 
References: <32D42419.70EE@rio.com> <32d5d307.343132460@news.dmsc.net>  <32d7c988.71776704@news.gte.net> <32e40e2b.8417484@news.inetport.com> <32d9ca7f.31593378@news.dmsc.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92871 soc.culture.german:94230

In article <32d9ca7f.31593378@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:25:43 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
> wrote:
> 
> >How about this?
> >
> >From the Hoess interogation at Nuremberg on page 17:
> >
> >Q: Now you told us you had facilities for 130,000. If you add up all
> >those figures they amount to a much greater number than 130,000. How
> >could you accommodate all these people?
> >
> >A: They were not supposed to be employed in work there, but they were
> >supposed to be exterminated.
> 
> >Hoess was commanding officer at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> 
> Mike, come on now. The Hoess "affidavit" has been torn apart by
> Revisionists for years. 

More like deniers have torn _themselves_ apart trying to attack Ho"ss's
memoirs and testimony! 

> I'm really surprised to see you use it here. Aside from Hoess' family being 
> threatened with bodily harm if they did not reveal his whereabouts....

Does Mr. Swiger have a citation for this? (Hint: ask Mr. Belling.) 

> Hoess was tortured in order to exact a "confession" from him. 

And was this "confession" ever used against Ho'ss i court? (Hint: _don't_
ask Mr. Belling.)  

> In fact, one of the interrogators, a Jew, confessed in recent years 
> to the torture of Hoess. 

Does Mr. Swiger have a citation for this? (Hint: ask Mr. Belling.) 

> I'm sure you're well aware of this and are simply rolling the dice that any 
> lurkers who happened upon your post would not know the facts surrounding the
> Hoess "affidavit".

Indeed. You just rolled "snake eyes" Mr. Swiger. You obviously know very
little about Ho"ss, his testimony at Kaltenvrunner's trial, his own trial
in Poland, and the role his "confession" to to British Field Security
Police played in all this. 

> I'll reiterate: It makes no difference how much testimony is produced,
> or from who it came in the case of the Holocaust. None of the
> "eyewitness" testimony or details of the various confessions can be
> corroborated with any physical, forensic or scientific evidence.

Did anyone ever tell you, Mr. Swiger, that you sound like an ignorant and
pompus ass? Why don't you run along and go polish your jackboots or
practice your "Zeig Heils" or something? You are rather b-o-r-i-n-g with
these Stupid Nazi Tricks of yours. 

For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
denial, vile Nazi beliefs, anti-Semitism, absolute intellectual
dishonesty, and his outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1997
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g/swigers-politics

Mark

> 
> Cliff Swiger
> Wahrheit macht frei

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan 14 12:54:52 PST 1997
Article: 92877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS FOR TOPF DOUBLE-MUFFLE FURNACE
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:52:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 66
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Pressac, Jean-Claude.  Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas
Chambers.  New York: The Beate Klarsfield Foundation, 1989. 

Page 136: Document G2a and G2b [PMO file BW 11/1, page 3].

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS FOR COKE-FIRED TOPF
                        DOUBLE-MUFFLE INCINERATION FURNACE

Before charging the two hearths with coke, the two furnace dampers and the
main rotary damper in the chimney must be open.

The fire can now be lit and maintained, being sure to open both secondary
openings to the right and left of the cinder removal doors (of the coke
furnace).

Once the cremation chamber (muffle) has been brought to a good red heat
(approximately 800°C), the corpses can be introduced one after another in
the cremation chambers.

Now the pulsed air blower situated to the side of the furnace should be
switched on and run for about 20 minutes, ensuring that the two cremation
chambers do not receive too much or too little fresh air. 

Regulation of the fresh air is by means of a rotary valve in the sir duct.
In addition, the air intakes, to the right and left of the chamber doors,
should be half open.

As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid
to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards
the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left for a
further 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed
in the container and set aside to cool.

In the meantime, further corpses can be introduced one after the other
into the chambers.

The two coke furnaces must be fed with fuel from time to time.

Every evening, the furnace fire bars must be cleaned of clinker and the
cinders removed.

In addition, care must be taken that at the end of operations, as soon  as
the furnace, having burnt everything is empty and no coals remain, that
the air valves, doors and damper are closed, so that the furnace does not
cool.

After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this
reason, care must be taken that the internal temperature does not rise
above 1100°C (white heat).

This increase in temperature can be avoided by introducing additional fresh air.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan 14 14:44:40 PST 1997
Article: 92889 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:39:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 78
Message-ID: 
References: <32d0749d.20252601@news.dmsc.net> <32d1dab9.82918957@news.dmsc.net> <32D3A218.1027@rio.com> <32d4830d.257109387@news.dmsc.net>  <32d72827.430473483@news.dmsc.net> <32ddf604.2233429@news.inetport.com> <32d960c0.80009961@news.gte.net> <32da6b35.558374@news.inetport.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92889 soc.culture.german:94240

In article <32da6b35.558374@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:

> BOb@the.helm (Brian Oblivion) wrote:
> 
> >On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:50:36 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
> >wrote in alt.revisionism:
> >
> >>cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
> >
> >>>bodies cremated per day. I do not care if this rate was achieved for
> >>>one hour or one year, it is physically impossible today and it is
> >>
> >>Today's conditions may not matter to the Nazis. 
> >
> >       How does that reduce the time required from an hour at best to
> >12 or 6 minutes?  
> >
> 
> What I know of it is that it wasn't necessary to burn the bodies
> completely before more could be added. No one cared if the ashes were
> mixed. Children were thrown in with adults. Not all the victims were
> fat. Some were emaciated by disease and could be thrown in with the
> recent arrivals. 
> 
> >>>absurd to suggest that the German National Socialists had the
> >>>technology back in the 1940s. 
> >
> >>They used both ovens and pits.
> >
> >       No pits have been found.  Its a nice claim though.  
> >
> 
> I don't think this is true. But we have this about Auschwitz:
> 
>   From _The Trial of Josef Kramer and 44 others: The Belsen Trial_,
> William Hodge and Company, 1949, page 130-131]

[snip]

>    Would you describe just what happened that day? -- I came at seven
> o'clock in the morning with the others and saw white smoke still
> rising from the trenches, which indicated that a whole transport had
> been liquidated or finished off during the night. In Crematorium No.
> 4 the result which was achieved by burning was apparently not
> sufficient. The work was not going on quickly enough, so behind the
> crematorium they dug three large trenches 12 metres long and 6 metres
> wide. After a bit it was found that the results achieved even in
> these three big trenches were not quick enough, so in the middle of
> these big trenches they built two canals through which the human fat
> or grease should seep so that work could be continued in a quicker
> way. The capacity of thesetrenches was almost fantastic. Crematorium
> No. 4 was able to burn 1000 people during the day, but this system of
> trenches was able to deal with the same number in one hour.

Image of corpses being incinerated in a burning pit at Auschwitz. See:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/burning-pit.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/burning-pit.ref

"In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow, was
commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry out
geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of
incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to
3 m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites.
Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are
preserved in the Conservation Department of the Museum."

Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/crematoria/burning-pits

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jan 14 18:28:36 PST 1997
Article: 92907 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!visi.com!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where is Ernst Zundel's stie?
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:45:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References: <5ah3st$oue@access5.digex.net> <32CFE6D1.62FB@IBM.NET>  <5b15hr$gq8$1@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <5b22lk$3ai@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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In article <5b22lk$3ai@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

> >>                                   Haiku
> 
> >>                              Gosh. Golly. Gee.
> >>                              I wish I were
> >>                              a straight arrow
> >>                              like this Bernie
> >>                              "Gotcha!" Farber
> >>
> >>                                        - Orest Slepokura
> 
> 
>                                              A Limerick
> 
> >There once was a man named Orest;
> >Who couldn't see the trees through the forest;
> >With any bad news,
> >He just blamed the Jews,
> >A constant refrain for his chorus.
> >
> >                                                 -Bernie Farber
> 
> ....and that, Sir, is good for One Wolfie's Pastrami, Corned Beef,
> or Smoked Meat sandwich, as you wish, on demand.
> 
> ...of course, you have to find a place with Guinness afterwards.

A most _excellent_ limerick! I shall have pint in honor of it!

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan 15 08:28:03 PST 1997
Article: 92955 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 06:55:03 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 80
Message-ID: 
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server> <5b9kkm$s9c@lex.zippo.com>  <5be4r9$kr6@access5.digex.net>
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In article <5be4r9$kr6@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net wrote:

> In article ,
> Mark Van Alstine  wrote:
> >In article <5b9kkm$s9c@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> Apparently Mr. K. McVay respects the law, so theoretically he should heed 
> >> my request.
> >
> >Mr. self-eater, your "request" has little to do with law and much to do
> >with attempting to save face by getting rid of all the embarrassing
> >claptrap you've  posted. Unfortunately for you, your bullying tactics of
> >using copryrights as a stalking horse to intimidate people is quite
> >farsical. 
> >
> >Copyrights have limitations. One limitation, for example, is in reagard to
> >"fair use" and another is in regard to the reproduction of copyrighted
> >works by educators and librarians. 
> 
>     Mark, you missed the key limitation here: copyright does not cover the
> case where someone possesses a copy which was voluntarily published and
> freely handed to the possessor (as well as to every other Internet user on
> the planet) by the person asserting copyright.  

I think that might fall under the catagory of "reproduction of copyrighted
works by educators and librarians" et. al.  :-) 

> If I print books and hand copies to everyone in sight, including you,
you have 
> a legal right to place that book on any bookshelf you like and allow anyone 
> you like to look at your copy of my book.

I would agree. However, in regard to the electronic disemination of such,
I believe the issue is still rather new to the courts. However, that said,
what you describe would seem to me something akin to handing out
handbills, tracts, pamplets etc. Certainly, I would think, libraries and
other institutions have the _right_  (according to U.S. Copyright law) to
hold such "literature" and present them to the public as a not-for-profit
public/educational service. 

> >Get a clue, Mr. self-eater, and save yourself further ridicule.  
> 
>     Actually, the person holding the bizarre notion of copyright is Matt
> Giwer. (It is of a piece with his other bizarre notions about the law, at
> least.)   

Yes, but the Giwer-swine is beyond redemption. There is little hope, IMHO,
that he would pass up a chance, _any_ chance, to be ridiculed for the
bigoted moron he obviouly is....

> Ourobouros is relying on a provision of New Zealand law which
> makes it illegal to publicize any information about someone.

To turn the tables, so to speak, on Mr. self-eater, publicizing "any
information about someone" is _not_ against the law in the U.S. as long as
it is not proven to violate the Constitutional limitations on free speech
(i.e. it is libelous). What New Zealand law (rightly or wrongly) says on
the matter is of no concern, for example, to those enjoy the protection of
the First Amendment in the U.S.

> Unfortunately, as I have said elsewhere, Ouroborous was the person
> responsible for publicizing his own writings by posting them to Usenet.
> If he wishes to file a criminal complaint against himself, of course that
> is his right.  Given his nickname, it would be a strangely appropriate
> thing to do, I suppose.

And highly entertaining, no doubt. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan 15 08:28:04 PST 1997
Article: 93008 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: First gassing at Sobibor
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:00:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5





In the middle of April 1942, when the building of Sobibor was close to
completion, experimental killings were carried out there. About 250 Jews
were brought from the Krychow labor camp, which was close to Sobibor, for
this purpose. Wirth arrived in Sobibor to attend these experiments. With
him came a chemist from the euthanasia program whose pseudonym was "Dr.
[Karl] Blaurock." SS _Sharfu"hrer Eric Fuchs, who served in Belzec,
describes the preperations and the first experimantal killing in Sobibor:

   As ordered by Wirth, I drove an LKW [a car] to Lvov, fetched a gas motor 
   and transported it to Sobibor. When I arrived at Sobibor, close to the 
   railway station I saw a tract of land with a concrete construction and 
   some other solid buildings. The _Sonderkommando_ there were commanded by 
   Thomalla. Other members of the SS who attended were F.B. Stangl, F. 
   Schwartz, Kurt Bolender, and others. We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy 
   Russian benzine engine (presumably a tank or tractor motor) at least 200 
   horsepower (V-8motor, 8 cylinders, water cooled), We installed the engine 
   on a concrete foundation and set up the conection between the exhaust and 
   the tube.

   I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the 
   ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The 
   chemist, whom I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with measuring 
   instruments to test the concentration of the gas.

   Following this, a gassing experiment was caried out. If my memory serves 
   me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. 
   The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the 
   gas chamber, and were driven into the gas chamber by the above-mentioned 
   SS members and by the Ukranian auxiliaries. Whe the women were shut up in 
   the gas chamber I and B [Bolender] set the motor in motion. The motor 
   functioned first in neutral. Both of us stood by the motor and switched 
   from "Neutral" (_Freiauspuff_) to "Cell (_Zelle_), so that the gas was 
   conveyed to the chamber. At the suggestion of the chemist, I fixed the motor 
   on a definite speed so that it was unnecessary henceforth to press on the 
   gas. About ten minutes later the thirty to forty women were dead. The 
   chemist and the SS leader gave the sign to sto the motor. I packed my tools 
   and saw how the corpses were removed. The transportation was done with a 
   lorry trail that led from the gas chamber to a remote plot.

After this experiment, which verified the smooth working of the gas
chambers, and with the completion of some other construction work, Sobibor
death camp was ready for its task. [...]



Source: Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp.31-32.) 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan 15 15:20:02 PST 1997
Article: 93041 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marxist Comradery at Nizkor?
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:51:20 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <32CDAA4A.6414@phoenix.net> <5b5j92$sqg$2@nadine.teleport.com> <32D7E0AE.7B89@conterra.com> <5bed2u$286@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <5beph9$3rl@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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In article <5beph9$3rl@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rcgraves@disposable.com
(Rich Graves) wrote:

> rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) writes:
> >And I thought we were all going to get together, watch a Marx Brothers'
> >flick and drink some micro brews...
> 
> How about next Thursday?
> 
> Mark? Brian? I think ZOG West is due for another cabal meeting.

Excellent idea! I haven't been cabaling in ages....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan 15 17:33:10 PST 1997
Article: 93053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:04:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server> <5b9kkm$s9c@lex.zippo.com>  <5bbiaj$j59@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <5bbiaj$j59@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , joelr@winternet.com says...
> >
> >In article <5b9kkm$s9c@lex.zippo.com> Ourobouros writes:
> >
> >>Apparently Mr. K. McVay respects the law, so theoretically he should heed 
> >>my request.
> >
> >>Ourobouros.
> >
> >You're leaving out a step.  Please demonstrate that it is illegal under 
> >either US or Canadian law to keep an accurate archives of your public
> >postings contrary to your wishes.  Case law, please; your personal 
> >interpretations of statutes aren't of interest.  
> >
> Copyright.

Fair Use: 

http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ21


Reproduction of Copyrighted Works By Educators and Librarians:

http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/fls/fl102


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jan 15 17:33:10 PST 1997
Article: 93055 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:10:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server> <5b9kkm$s9c@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <5b9kkm$s9c@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

[snip]

> Apparently Mr. K. McVay respects the law, so theoretically he should heed 
> my request.

Mr. self-eater, your "request" has little to do with law and much to do
with attempting to save face by getting rid of all the embarrassing
claptrap you've  posted. Unfortunately for you, your bullying tactics of
using copryrights as a stalking horse to intimidate people is quite
farsical. 

Copyrights have limitations. One limitation, for example, is in reagard to
"fair use" and another is in regard to the reproduction of copyrighted
works by educators and librarians. 

Get a clue, Mr. self-eater, and save yourself further ridicule.  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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