The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/van-alstine.mark/1996/van-alstine.0796


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul  8 08:49:49 PDT 1996
Article: 48860 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phenol or Gas
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 19:54:38 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <4rl3ln$ilv@juliana.sprynet.com>, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

> No offense intended, but why were the nazis experimenting with phenol
shots in 
>1942, after they  already supposedly knew how quickly zyklon could kill?  It's 
>somewhat of a non sequitor, isn't it?

Well, because the Nazis weren't "experimenting" with phenol shots. The
Nazis used phenol shots as a method of execution for the sick and
invalided in the infirmaries. As to the time it took to kill- a phenol
shot to the heart killed in a matter of seconds. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul  8 08:49:51 PDT 1996
Article: 48861 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 20:04:36 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <31da8509.893190@news.pacificnet.net> <3JUL199609415098@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> <4JUL199608132479@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31dd25e8.472080@news.pacificnet.net>  <31de7777.2592954@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31de7777.2592954@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 
> 
> >Well, I suppose one could _also_ point his rigii at:
> >
> >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom
> 
>         These people are always directing the reader to the above,
> instead of posting any incriminating material right out here. The
> Nizkor files are in total disarray. For anyone wanting to have a look
> at any of Moran's stuff, unchopped up into pieces of threads like
> Nizkor's, can go to Deja News on the Internet and enter "Tom Moran".

Moranic(tm) snit translated: "I haven't the slightest clue how to point my
rigii at that U-R-L thingamajigii. Therefore, I will proceed at full speed
to blow smoke out of my butt."


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul  8 08:49:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48892 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 21:13:43 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
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References: <4quqbi$dv6@Vir.com>  <836095557snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <836609732snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <836609732snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel
Keren" writes:
> > 
> > Dr. Broszat does say that there was no gas chamber in Buchenwald,
> > and that the one in Dachau was never finished. 
> > 
> > Then, we have the famous "revisionist extrapolation" in action, 
> > extending Dachau and Buchenwald to mean "all camps in the 'Old Reich'".
> 
> Dan, Dan, Dan, I did not say the Old Reich, I said Dachau. You admit then
> that he claimed there were no gassings in Dachau? Yes? This is progress.

And Dr. Blaha, who performed autopsies for Rascher, _did_ say that
homicidal gassings took place in Barracke-X.  This too is "progress."  

> > There were homicidal gas chambers in other camps: Mauthausen, Neuengamme,
> > Natzweiler and others. It is true that they were not used for mass
> > murder on the scale of Treblinka, Auschwitz etc.; in Natzweiler, for
> > instance, only about 200 victims were gassed.
> 
> Pressac says 86 but what's 114 corpses between friends?
> 
> >This is long before the alleged 
> > "difficulties in transportation towards the end of the war", that our 
> > lying "revisionists" blame for the deaths in these camps.
> 
> Lying who, Dan? Who is lying about Dachau? Hmmm?

"Hmmm" indeed! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul  8 19:56:39 PDT 1996
Article: 49031 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 10:10:15 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 142
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In article <4rpjgf$ql5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> ON Jul 5, 1996 Mark Van Alstine wrote
> 
> >Just to clarify things, Mr. Allen, did _you_ actually go to Auschwitz
> >and carefully examine the remains of the floor and drainge system of the
> >Krema  II's L.Keller 1? If so, did you document this? 
> >A triple conjuctive sentence!  

>Yes...

what was the date of your visit?

>...and no...

What, no careful "examiniation" of the floor? 

> ...and yes....

You did carefully "examine" rhe drainage system of L.Keller1? 

> Yes.

Ah, you claim to have documentation? Good! Do you have photographs and/or
drawings of your careful "examination?" Would you mind posting/e-mailing
this? 

> > >> This would indicate that the original floor is still there waiting
> > >> for somebody to find bolt holes in it.
> > 
> 
> > Perhaps you would care to  walk through _all_ your assumptions,
> >citing all corrobarating evidence,  step-by-step for us? 
> 
> That the floor is there?   Sure, but first would you state
> your position regarding the existence of the floor.  

Sure. I believe the floor was constructed along with the rest of L.Keller
1, Mr. Allen. Therefore, I believe it "exists." Now, please walk through
_all_ your assumptions concerning the lack of "bolt holes," citing all
corrobarating evidence,  step-by-step for us. 

> I have been informed that other persons are interested in this thread,
> have been recording our words and plan on publishing them.
> Therefore, I would like to get you "on the record" as it were.

Fine. And who might these "other persons" be, Mr. Allen? Associates of yours? 

> #> >And. Mr. Allen? Are you asserting that no indications that these
> #> >"little chimneys" now exist on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen.

> >>YES

> #> >And that >because of this said "little chimneys _never_ #existed? 

> > >AND YES

> >Then please explain, Mr. Allen, the photo of Krema II, taken by the
> >Bauleitung, that _clearly_ shows three "little chimneys" on the >roof of
> L.Keller 1 (_Technique_, p.340, photos 17/17a). I am >_still_ awaiting
> what must be a very illuminating answer....

> Well, let's start Revisi... er, Scientifically.  When was the
> photograph taken?  Early in the construction.  Pressac
> guesses that it was between 9th and 11th of February 1943.
> But the source of the photograph is L'Album D'Auschwitz.
> They identify the photo (pg. 210 of the French version)
> as La photo P.M.O. neg. n. 20995/504 date a peu de 
> janvier 1943.  
>      This is odd because we are also informed that the
> pour for the roof of Leichenkeller 2 Crema 1 was done
> on January 25th or 26th  (see Technique, pg. 338  Photo
> 14).    That would mean that Leichenkeller 1 would have to
> have been completed (with little chimneys installed) prior to
> Leichenkeller 2 even having its roof poured.  Hmmm.

And? You seem to think, for some reason, Mr. Allen, that it was not
possible to finish L.Keller 1 before L.Keller 2? Why is that? Please be
specific.

However, I would also like to note that L.Keller 2 is visible in photo
17/17a on page 340 of _Technique_. In fact, in photo 17a it is labelled
as: "Vestiaire ou Leichenkeller 2 du Kr II." I must say, Mr. Allen, that
L.Keller 2 looks rather complete as well. No signs of major contsruction
are apparant with L.Keller 2, unlike there is with the chimney of Krema
II. 

>  There is an earlier picture of the roof of Leichenkeller 1
> clearly without anything on its roof. Technique pg.  373. 
> It is hard to tell since there is a light covering of snow 
> on the roof, but the roof may be just the concrete slab without the
> asphalt layer and the concrete cap.
> It is not much earlier though, since the crematory furnaces  have been
> working.  Note the melted snow.  I would guess 
> that the picture was taken the day of the test firing.  We
> can track down that date.  
> By the way, the picture on pg 373 proves what I have been writing that the 
> vents were "put in" after the roof was poured.

Mr. Allen, the caption of the photo on page 373 of _Technique_ gives the
approximate date as follows: "View of the south side of Kremtorium II as
it neared completion in early or mid-January 1943..." Clearly, this would
be prior to the date the photo on page 340 of _Technique_ was taken. No
great mystery here. Your point? 

> Then if we look at pg. 341 of Teccnique we see a 
> later photograph of the roof of the Leichenkeller.  
> Pressac notes that the  "Zyclon-B introduction chimneys
> scarcely visible".  Can you see the "chimneys" in the picture?
> They definatively are less prominate than in the photos on
> 340.  

And? Your point, Mr. Allen? That the "little chimneys" should be less
visable after the _berm_ over the roof was added is hardly suprising.... 

> I am have trouble with the photos on pg. 340.  I cannot
> tell anything about the state of Leichenkeller 2.  

Of _course_ you are having "trouble" with the photo on page 340, Mr.
Allen! It clearly contrdicts your specious claims that the "little
chimneys" NEVER existed! And, depsite all your (above) specious drivel, it
contintues to show that your claims are nothing but denier fantasies. 

> I am also wondering what the small square object under the middle
> of the 5th window from the left (west).  Is it on the roof too or beyond
> the Leichenkeller? 

Rather, Mr. Allen, I wonder when _you_ will cease these absurd charades
and simply admit you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking
about. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed to Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Allen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul  8 19:56:41 PDT 1996
Article: 49033 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MoreHolocaust Almanac BS - I.G. Farben removed 'indicator' from gas
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 11:52:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 54
Message-ID: 
References: <4rku75$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rlgte$n1n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4rlgte$n1n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> Just a couple of words.  The first point is that Jamie keyed the lack of
> warning stuff to some other reasons.  The second point is that the above
> passage contains many speculative passages.  Do I need to spell them out? 

Yes.

> Third point lack of irritant is no proof of extermination, per se,
> especially since most of the people gassed were gassed with  Diesel
> exhaust.  

Irrelevent to the issue of the lachrymal. 

> Only 16% of the Holocaust victims were killed with non-irritant
> Zyklon...

Irrelevent to the issue of the lachrymal. 

> ...and according to Pressac, 95% of this type of Zyklon was used for
> non homicidal purposes.  HIlberg's original comment viz. *very little was
> used for fumigation* has been confuted, and not by revisionists.

Please explain why this would invalidate the fact that Zyklon B was
produced, by  order of the SS and against German law, _without_ the
lacrymal, thus indicating homicidal use? Given that it was Pressac who
"confuted" Hilberg, and that Pressac makes no claims (that I can find) as
to Zyklon B used for homicidal gassing _having_ the lacrymal, I fail to
see your point. (Pressac, btw, was making a different point regarding a
_specific_ time period at Auschwitz.) 

It is well worth noting that it is quite within the established evidence
that Zyklon B _with_ (and perhaps without- cf. Pressac re. 1942 typhus
epidemic.) the lachrymal was produced and used for disinfestation
purposes, while Zyklon B _without_ the lachrymal was used for homicidal
purposes. The amount of Zyklon B produced for homicidal purposes was not
all that much in comparison to the amount produced for pest control
purposes. After all, if 4 kg was used to kill 1,000  people, that would
imply about that at least (only!) 4,520 kg was used for homicidal purposes
at Auschwitz. The records show that several times that much was used
_just_ to combat the 1942 typhus epidemic at Auschwitz. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul  8 20:08:18 PDT 1996
Article: 74099 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 12:03:57 -0700
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 07:36:34 PDT 1996
Article: 49080 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 10:39:43 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <4rmhc0$4c5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> 
> >I wouldn't go that far.  There's only one document there that I can
> >remember referencing as a trustworthy historical source, and that's
> >their copy of the Degesch manual for handling of Zyklon-B.
> 
> We don't have a copy of the Degesch manual on line.  Some excerpts maybe.

The copy of NI-9912 that was on-line at: 

http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/incon/zyklon.html

...corrosponed to the one shown in Pressac's _Technique_ (pp.18-20.)

Hardly "some excerpts."

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 07:36:36 PDT 1996
Article: 49090 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 10:20:32 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <4quqbi$dv6@Vir.com>  <836095557snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <836609732snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <836724145snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <836724145snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            mvanalst@rbi.com "Mark Van Alstine" writes:
> > And Dr. Blaha, who performed autopsies for Rascher, _did_ say that
> > homicidal gassings took place in Barracke-X.  This too is "progress."  
> 
> I posted a lengthy thread on this some time back. What Dr Blaha said has the
> same value as what O'Grady said. There are people who say Jesus lives on 
> the planet Venus, that doesn't mena this claim has a gramme of merit.

Oh, yes, Al, I seem to remember you bad-mouthing Blaha. And Bendal, and
Nyiszli, and Hart, and....

Al, it seems like you have this seedy habit of bad-mouthing any eyewitness
to Nazi atrocities at the drop of a hat. Needless to say, you have not
provided any rational argument for, nor substantive rebuttal against, such
testimonies. 

In short, Al, you like to blow smoke out your butt a lot. 

[snip]

> > > Lying who, Dan? Who is lying about Dachau? Hmmm?
> > 
> > "Hmmm" indeed! 
> 
> 
> More innuendo. 

Speaking about innuendo! My, Al, you seem chocked full of it lately!

>I notice that Mr Giwer's constant reposts of the Dachau
> quote from the IMT has been methodically ignored. Like all the evidence that
> refutes your officially sanctioned lies.

Maybe that's because the Troll is being ignored because he is an
unmitigated liar and a fraud? That his rants aren't even worth paying
attention to because they are so insane? Perhaps you should take note, Al?



Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 07:36:37 PDT 1996
Article: 49093 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Birkenau Map w/ kitchens.jpg (0/2) Re: Sleep with dogs, get fleas
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 12:04:39 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <31d9a868.2051503@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 
> >
> >Why the repost, Moran? Did you perhaps not see my origional post? Did you
> >not read the e-mail I sent you? Oh, well. I'll simply repost my  reply...
> 
> 
>         I never read your e-mail. Most of the time I don't bother to read
> whatever you post. Didn't I tell you this once before? Didn't I tell
> you not to send me anymore e-mail? Why do you waste the resources?
> Maybe you think it makes me mad, or you intend it to make me mad, when
> in fact all I do is hit with my fly swatter and drop it in the trash.
> You send, I trash it. It's Easy.


Oh, in other words, you can offer no rebuttal to my exposure of your lies
and fabrications. Instead you choose to run away while hollowly boasting a
"victory." 

How typical. How sad. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 07:36:38 PDT 1996
Article: 49145 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MoreHolocaust Almanac BS - I.G. Farben removed 'indicator' from gas
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 21:57:56 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 123
Message-ID: 
References: <4rku75$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rlgte$n1n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
>> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> 
>> > Just a couple of words.  The first point is that Jamie keyed the lack
>> > of warning stuff to some other reasons.
>
>He's correct, though I don't recall whether I mentioned this in email
>or publicly.  Probably publicly, I suppose.

Then do you have any info on this gassing incident (accident?) with
Breitweiser? 

>> Please explain why this would invalidate the fact that Zyklon B was
>> produced, by order of the SS and against German law, _without_ the
>> lacrymal, thus indicating homicidal use?
>
>It's plausible that it was produced without the warning agent in order
>to either disguise the slaughter (doubtful) or in a halfhearted attempt
>to ease the victims' suffering (less doubtful).

Yes, to produce Zyklon B _without_ the lachrymal to "disguise" the fact
that Zyklon B was also used for homicidal purposes is counterintuitive. To
produce it without the lachrymal in an effort to be more "humane," though
perhaps doubtful, is more believable than doing so to disguise its
homicidal use. 

Another reason, purely speculative mind you, would be that the lachrymal,
if it were to linger for some reason after the gas chambesr were
ventilated, would be counterproductive for efficient gassing operations.
Namely, that it might delay the Sonderkommandos from removing the victims
>from  the gas chamber. (For those in Kremas II and III, and perhaps in V
after its mechanical ventilation was installed, for instance, who entered
_after_ the _first_ Sonderkommandos who wore gas masks.) 

>However, the fact that the warningless Zyklon was sent to Oranienburg as
>well as Auschwitz makes it difficult for me to defend it as a sign of
>homicidal gassing....  

An interesting (if somewhat questionable) reference to Oranienburg can be
found by Gerstein: 

[From "T1 - page 9 (numbered 8) and page 10 (numbered 9) - the first 6
lines only"]

"I must yet add that SS-Sturmbannfu"hrer Gu"nther, at te beginning of
1944, asked me for large quatities of prussic acid for an obscure purpose
[destin - sic]. The acid was to be supplied to Oranienburg and Auschwitz,
concentration camps [champs - sic]. I loyally had the acid sent as
requested. But immediately after its arrival, I diverted it for
disinfection. This was a little [quelquement - sic] dangerous for me, but
if I had been asked where the acid was, I would have said: it was already
in a state of dangerous decomposition, and because of that I had to use it
up for disinfection. Iam sure that Gu"nther, according to his own words,
had the order to obtain it to eventually kill many men. The invoices
[notas - sic] for this supply, altogether 2,175 kg., in my name for - as I
said - discretion, in truth to be somewhat free in the disposal and to be
better able to divert the toxic acid.

"I never paid the delivery. The manager of the firm, Dr. G. Peters,
Freidberg/Hessen, who supplied the acid, told me that he supplied - to
kill men - prussic acid in amopoules." (_The "Confessions" of Kurt
Gerstein, p.26.) 

The gist of this, of course, was that SS-Sturmbannfu"hrer Gu"nther wanted
a "large" amount of Zyklon B for "obscure" (i.e. homicidal) purposes and
that it was shipped to Oranienburg and Auschwitz. (So Gerstein says.)

>...No gassing was done at Oranienburg as far as anyone knows. 

Nope, no _documented_ evidence of homicidal gassings at Oranienburg.
(Gerstein claimed to have witnessed the liquidation of _all_ the
homosexuals at Oranienburg in a single day, but didn't say how [Ibid.
pp.35-36].) It was, however, a place where "disinfectors" were trained to
use Zyklon B, and that if these "disinfectors" were to recieve orders "to
collaborate in the gassing of people, they should carry out this order."
(_Nazi Mass Murder_, p.191.) 

>In fact, no Zyklon gassing was done anywhere besides Auschwitz
>(and Majdanek, but if I recall, the timing on the orders excludes that
>possibility).

Zyklon B also was used in homicidal gassings (though on a much smaler
scale than at Auschwitz) at:  Mauthausen (March 1942 to April 1945); Gusen
(April 1945); Sachenhausen (March 1943 to February 1945); Ravensbru"ck
(February 1945 to April 1945); Stutthof (June 1944 to November 1944); and
Neuengamme (September 1942 and November 1942). (Ibid. pp.177-196.) 

>Yes, Oranienburg was a distribution site, but why would some be sent
>directly to Auschwitz and some be sent to an intermediate location?
>It wouldn't make sense.

To supply _other_ camps with small amounts of Zyklon B (sans lachrymal)? I
would also point out that it would also have made sense. Also, considering
the (considerably) larger amounts requyired by Auschwitz, sending Zyklon B
shipments _directly_ to Auschwitz also made sense. 

>Note that I'm rejecting this as a specific _proof_ of homicidal gassing;
>the warningless Zyklon in no way contradicts the fact that homicidal
>gassing did take place!

In light that your assertion that Zyklon B was _not_ used for homicidal
purposes at other camps besides Auschwitz seems to have a few (six)
problems, perhaps you would care to re-evaluate your position? };->  

>If only "revisionists" would have similarly fair standards of proof...

Uh huh. If I only had won the lotto ($45 million) too! };-> 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 11:27:51 PDT 1996
Article: 74284 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 11:27:54 PDT 1996
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 11:52:09 PDT 1996
Article: 49182 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 21:37:20 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 115
Message-ID: 
References:  <4rpr81$21p@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31e15099.5826208@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31e15099.5826208@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

Ehrlich606 seems to be having "difficulties" (again) with keeping the
attributions straight. (Such are the trials and tribulations of a USENET
"novice," I suppose.)  

> >In article <4rkfhh$bu1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
> >(Ehrlich606) wrote:
> >
> >> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> >> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:

I will therefore annotate my misattributed commenst, which was in response
to Ehrlich606, with a preceeeding "#" for clarity.  

> >[snip]
> >
> >
> >> Not to say it was not used homicidally, but to argue that special
> >> treatment would be known by Degesch as a term for Jewish extermination
> >> widens the SS conspiracy considerably, don't you think? 
> >
#> >And who said that the SS at Auschwitz requested the Zyklon B directly from
#> >DEGESCH? They didn't. They requested it from the SS in Berlin. In
#> >particular, from Gerstein's office, who in turn ordered it from DEGESCH,
#> >and had it shipped to (or picked up by) the SS at Auschwitz.
#> >(_Destruction_. p.570.) 
> 
> I'm confused. I don't see Mark making that claim above. Did you edit
> it out?

See above. 

> >> BTW, I think the guy at Degesch was later hanged precisely because it
> >> was very unsafe to produce this stuff without the warning stuff.  I think.
> >
#> >Sounds like a mighty slim limb you're out on there. Care for a saw? 
> 
> I see debate/argument is not one of your fortes.
> 
> >[snip]

Now, _really_, Ehrlich606! To actually edit my response out and _then_
accuse me, with snide innuendo, for failing to debate/argue my point? Tsk
tsk! Some people might say that you were being a bit dishnoest there.... 

The text that you delted was as follows:

"In March 1946 the trial of Bruno Tesch, Joachim Dro"sihn, and Karl
Weinbacher was held before a British military tribunal in Hamburg. The
accused were owners and executives of a Hamburg factory that from January
1, 1941, to March 31, 1945, manufactured poison gas used to kill
concentration camp prisoners. The gas, called ZYKLON B, was manufactured
by the Tesch and Stabenow Company. It was used by the SS
TOTENKOPFVERBAN"DE (Death's-Head Units) stationed at AUSCHWITZ and other
extermination camps. 

"The defendants in the trial claimed that they did not know to what use
their product was put, a claim that was rebutted by Tesch's official
company reports of his trips to Auschwitz. Tesch and Weinbacher (the
executive manager of the 'factory for means of death') were sentanced to
death and executed; Dro"sihn, an employee of the factory, was acquitted.

"The trial was conducted on the basis of Military Order 81/45, which
derived its authority from a British law of June 14, 1945, that laid down
the principals of the NURENBERG TRIAL. The Zyklon B Trial established for
the first time that the manufacturer of gas for killing prisoners was a
war crime. (_The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, p.1500.)

#> >"...The management of DEGESCH could not have been unaware of the use to
#> >which their Zyklon B was being put. The SS ordered that the special order,
#> >required by German law as a warning, be removed. This ordor was intended
#> >to alert humans to the lethal presence of the gas. Ordering its removal
#> >was a clear indication of the purpose it was to served. (Ibid. p.1750.) 
> >
> >Like I said, they were executed for making the stuff without the
> >lachrymal.  The implication arrived at by the Court is forced and does not
> >stand up, especially since not all of the non-lachrymal Zyklon was used
> >for killing.

LIke _I_ wrote, Ehrlich606, Bruno Tesch and Joachim Dro"sihn were executed
for _knowingly_ manufacturing Zyklon B for homicidal use. They tried to
argue that they did not _know_ that it was being used for homicidal
purposes, but Tesch's _own_ "official company reports of his trips to
Auschwitz" contradicted such pleas. They were convicted and executed not
because Zyklon B was manufactured without the lachrymal (which was against
German law, btw) but _because_ they _knew_ the Zyklon B _they_
manufactured was used for _homicidal_ purposes. 

> And this assumption is from?

Evidently _this_ (above) "assumption" was a product of Ehrlich606's
creative editing skills. It sure as hell wasn't in the context of what I
origionally wrote. 

But I suppose now, Ehrlich606, will offer the lame-ass excuse that he
didn't intend to mangle my response to him a such a way to make it appear
to mean something that it did not origionally mean? Nor could honestly be
construed to mean what he implied? Such behavior I would have expected
>from  the Troll. Or Moran. But that I see that Ehrlich606 is now indulging
in it, I am quite saddened by it.... 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 12:46:09 PDT 1996
Article: 49200 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 14:45:23 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References:  <4rrrir$nu3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4rrrir$nu3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy wrote on July 7
> 
> > Then please explain, Mr. Allen, the photo of Krema II, taken by the
> > Bauleitung, that _clearly_ shows three "little chimneys"
> 
> >Ceacaa then went on to write a lot of verbiage about the >photograph:
> words without any apparent point or conclusion.  

[Mr. Allen's denier drivel snipped]

> In short, the three boxes are just that, three boxes of
> roofing material laid out at the job site. 

Well, this pretty much confirms that Mr. Allen is simply grasping at
straws now.  What _evidence_ does he have that the "little chimneys" are
"boxes of roofing material?" None. How does Mr. Allen explain that these
"boxes of roofing material" can be seen on the roof of L.Keller 1 in the
USAAF aerial photo of August 1944- a _year and a half_ later? He can't.
Given that there is a plethora of photgraphic, documentary, and eyewitness
evidence that descibes these "little chimneys" as part of the Zyklon B
introduction column system. 

Occam's Razor would have us opt for the _simplest_ explination for their
existance: they were part of the Zyklon B introduction column and NOT
"boxes ofroofing material" that just happened to be left on the roof for
18 months. 


Mark

posted/e-mailed to Mr.McCarthy and Mr. Allen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 17:13:15 PDT 1996
Article: 49273 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi142.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 15:21:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <4rhbc7$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4rsf1l$juv@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi142.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4rsf1l$juv@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >  The Troll wrote:
> 

[snip]

> >  And if one wishes to invoke secrecy as a reason for no pictures then one
> >  needs to produce specific orders against taking the kinds of pictures
> >  that I describe.  There appears to have been no orders against taking
> >  the kinds of pictures that have been produced which are excludable as
> >  being nonspecific to the gassing issue.  
> 
> I believe that such orders do exist.  Most of the extant pictures that I 
> know of were taken in contravention to specific orders.

Indeed there were orders not to take _unaithorized_ pictures at
Auschwitz-Birkenau:

"The Nazis wanted to record what they were doing, but on the other hand
they were aware that photogtaphs of concentration camps would be damning
evidence of their crimes. Accordingly, and in compliance with the general
directives of SS_Reichsfu"hrer Heinrich Himmler and the Inspectorate of
Concentration Camps, the Auschwitz authorities sought to forbid
unauthorized photography of anything connected with the camp, directly or
indirectly. Order No. 4/43, dated 2 February 1943 and signed by the camp's
commandant, SS_Obersturmbannfu"hrer Rudolf Ho"ss, was explicit on this>
Item 3 reads: 'I want to point out once more that taking pictures in the
camp is forbidden. I shall punish with the utmost severity those who do
not observe this order.' The only exception was for official photographs
specifically authorized." (_Auschwitz: a history in photgraphs_, p. 34.)

See also: 

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/photos.01

[snip]


Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 17:13:17 PDT 1996
Article: 49288 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi142.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 15:32:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <6JUL199614233268@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4rnpb7$gj3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rp9op$15r@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi142.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4rp9op$15r@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) wrote:

[snip]

> From what I have seen, Ehrlich is quick to take umbrage at anything
> _he_ perceives as a "wrong" (or an attack) on him - regardless of the
> _intent_, context or circumstances - and to use such *slights,*
> _after_ they have been dealt with, in such a way as to lead the reader
> to believe they have not. 
> 
> Yet, he is _extremely_ reluctant to admit that any of his _own_ words
> could be perceived by others as insulting, sexist or inappropriate and
> uncalled for.  In such cases it seems that _his_ intent (which he
> customarily does not explain until well after the fact) is all that
> matters.
> 
> Am I the only one who sees a double standard here?

Nope.

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:15 PDT 1996
Article: 49324 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Breitweiser (was "Actions of the Righteous...")
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 15:07:37 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 169
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References:  <4rpr81$21p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5


The following is a recontruction of the dialog regarding Breitweiser:

In article <4rpr81$21p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

>In article <4rjni5$3hc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) >wrote:
>

[snip]

>>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>>(Mark Van Alstine)wrote:
>

[snip]

>> Excepting that here you are running up against something Jamie posted in
>> response to my precis of a book on Fritz Haber, namely, that the warning
>> agent's removal was not a factor -- in his opinion -- as to lethal usage. 
>> Furthermore it also appears that Zyklon without warning stuff was part of
>> the reason it was chosen (story of the guy (Breitweiser?) who suddenly
>> passed out.)  
>

[snip]

Mr. McCarthy's post regarding Zyklon B w/wo lachrymal can be found at: 

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/mccarthy.jamie/mccarthy.0696

...under:

Message-ID:  
Subject: Re: Fritz Haber:  Chemist, Nobel Prize Winner, Jew


[snip]

>> Again, Matt indicates that the story -- which is on Nizkor somewhere --
>> stems from 1941.  Hence, his conclusion that there are two stories. 
>> Mike Stein had some input on this too.

[snip]

>>>So much for "Breitweiser" then. If you wish to refer to him then _you_ had
>>>better did up a reference pronto. 
>

[snip]

> Here is the quote from the Nizkor archive, which references the
> Breitweiser story.  I don't know whether in context the quote comes from
> Conot or Naumann, I have nothing to say about either of these gents,
> except that I thought Conot's book was weak, which was a surprise for me,
> because his book on Watts (Rivers of Blood, Years of Darkness) made a
> strong impression on me in the 1960's.
> 
> At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were
>    dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and
>    'commissars' were initially executed one at a time with a shot in
>    the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to the
>    Bunker (camp prison).  This was a laborious procedure that wore on
>    the nerves of the SS executioners.  In October 1941, however, an SS
>    officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser noticed that one of his
>    companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was instantly
>    knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was
>    used as a disinfectant.  
> 
>    To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more
>    efficient and less time-consuming executions.  After ordering the
>    half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had
>    several cans of the blue pellets, which vaporize when exposed to
>    air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution.
> 
>    Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies were
>    met by a fearsome sight.  Men with contorted faces had locked
>    themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each other's
>    hair, and bitten off their fingers.  Their flesh and their clothes
>    had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated when
>    the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 
>    112, 134.)
> 
>    Conot, Robert E. Justice at Nuremberg. New York: Harper & Row, 1983
> 
>    Naumann, Bernd. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger, 1966, as
>    cited in Conot
> 
> Extract from Nizkor archive.  I don't know what the URL is, because after
> finding it I just downloaded it and snipped it to save.

[Note: As I am unable to locate the above document, I would ask that
Ehrlich606 please provide the URL for it.] 

Now, to address Ehrlich606's claim that "Zyklon without warning stuff was
part of the reason it was chosen" by Breitwieser:

In the (above) text provided by Ehrlich606 it states that: "In October
1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser noticed that
one of his companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was
instantly  knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that
was used as a disinfectant."

No mention of the presence of- or the lack thereof -the lachrymal was
made. Just that one of Breitwieser's companions "was instantly knocked out
when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a
disinfectant." To claim, from this text, that Breitwieser chose Zyklon B
_because_ it had no lachrymal is sheer speculation on Ehrlich606's part.
Furthermore, I would argue that such speculation goes against the evidence
that Zyklon B, which up until this point (1941) was used exclusively for
disinfestation purposes, _contained_ the lachrymal as required by German
law. (cf. NI-9912; _The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, p.1750.) It was
not, I believe, until _after_ Zyklon B was chosen as a homicidal agent for
mass murder that the SS ordered Zyklon B _without_ the lachrymal. 

As to the secondary issue regarding Breitwieser being the person who
"discovered" the homicidal use for Zyklon B, I would note that multiple
sources typically cite SS Captain Karl Fritzsch's ordering the execution
of 600 Soviet prisoners and some 200 Polish prisoners in Block 11, on
September 3, 1941, as the watershed event marking the realization of
Zyklon B as the homicidal agent of choice at Auschwitz. 

However, according to Danuta Czech, in _Aschwitz Cronicle_, there is
mention made of a _previous_, smaller, "experiment" with Zyklon B: 

"After the success of the experiment of killing the small group of Russian
prisoners of war with gas, ordered by Karl Fritzsch a few days earlier,
the camp administration decides to repeat the experiment in the cellar of
Block 11." (_Aschwitz Cronicle_, p.85.) 

See also:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand/second-block11-gassing

Furthermore, for the period of 0ctober 7-31, 1941, 1,225 Russian POWs died
according to the Death Register. The Morgue Register lists 873 prisoners.
The causes of deaths were starvation, exhaustion, illness, physical abuse,
gunshot, and phenol injection. (Ibid. p.102,102fn.)

There no is indication that a mass gassing of Russians POWs took place
during October 1941. 

Therefore, I would argue, it is likely that _if_ the incindent regarding
Breitwieser did, in some form, indeed take place it is likely that it has
been confused with Fritzsch's "experiment" in Block 11 on September 3,
1941. It is quite possible that Breitwieser did come up with the idea of
using Zyklon B for homicidal purposes and told Fritzsch who, being the
Protective Custody Commander (e.g. Block 11), then ordered a small
"experiment" be carried out to test the idea. The experiment evidently
proved a success, leading Fritzsch to try the larger "experiment" on
September, 3, 1941, in Block 11 and report the successful results to
Ho"ss, who in turn reported to Eichmann that the homicidal gas they had
been searching had been found.  

The rest, as it is said, is (genocidal) history. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 06:52:56 PDT 1996
Article: 49336 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:25:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <4rtq2n$jko@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

>  ON Jul 8, 1996 Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> > And? Your point, Mr. Allen? That the "little chimneys" 
> >should be less visable after the _berm_ over the roof was 
> >added is hardly suprising.... 
> 
> Berm over the roof?  Having learned that the roof and 
> the floor exist you have gotten too excited and are adding things now. 
> The roof was made of three layers  and does not appear to  have been covered 
> with earth. 

How interesting, Mr. Allen. Equally interesting is that the roofs of both
L.Keller 2s were _removed_ during the dismantling of Kremas II and III.
This can be seen in the photopraphs on page 190 of _Auschwitz: a history
in photographs_. No roofs and no dirt in the remians of the floors.  

More importantly, however, please note the cleary visible _remains_ of the
_berm_ that covered one of the L.Keller 2s.  

> Some plans of the Leichenkeller show it covered with earth, some do not. 

Please indicate which drawings do not so indicate that berms were to cover
the L.Kellers. Be specific. 
 
> However, the photographs taken at the  Liberation of the show a clean, 
> although broken, roof.

In regards to the L.Keller 1 of Krema II, there are several photos of it
in _Technique_. What _you_ call "a clean, although broken, roof" is in
reality the  shattered ruins of the roof with much rubble strewn over it,
as is clear in Document 97 on page 261. Additionally, on page 265,
documents 106-109 (taken in the 1960's) also clearly show the amount of
rubble and dirt over the ruins of L.Keller 1's roof.  

Where did all this rubble and dirt come from, Mr. Allen? Are you going to
suggest it was _all_ shoveled in afterwards? Or perhaps was blown in over
the years? Or maybe washed in with the rains? 

Or perhaps it is what is left of the berm after the demolition of L.Keller 1? 

> This supports the Exterminationist position to
> some degree in that it shows the Germans were
> less concerned with insulation of the Leichenkeller.

Really? How nice. Of course, having the berm on the roof to insulate
against the weather would _also_ support the conventional position that
L.Keller 1 was a homicidal gas chamber. Your point is specious. 

But, of course, Mr. Allen, this has nothing to do with the fact that you
now claim that the "little chimneys" were boxes of roofing material left
on the roofs of the L.Kellers for nearly 18 months! But then you _also_
absurdly claimed they NEVER EXISTED! Such grasping at straw. Tsk tsk...

But you knew that.


Mark 

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 06:52:57 PDT 1996
Article: 49361 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can Tom Moran Read? (Re: Racism in Holocaust books)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:17:08 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <4rsg0v$juv@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >
> >  ># V.                         Raul Hilberg,
> >  >#             "The Destruction of European Jews"
> >  >#
> >  ># "On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
> >  ># Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
> >  ># Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
> >  ># Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
> >  ># postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
> >  ># laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
> >  ># to speak, nonexistent'".
> >  >#        Stupid Russians.
>  
> >       Why? And how do we know any truth of the quote? Now why would
> >  Hilberg include this in his book? 
> 
> Because it is true. It is an accurate description of what the social 
> structure and reality was.  If you have any contrary evidence please post it.

It was a partial quote from _Destruction_ that was taken out of context by
Moran, as I've previously noted.

> >  And why did you not address the other examples? Was it because
> >  you couldn't think of an angle like the above?
> 
>   Because it's not worth the effort.

The _other_ "examples" are fabrications and cannot be found in the book. 

> >  >Have you considered the possibility that you are senile, and that
> >  >you cannot understand simple written text? Maybe it's time to join
> >  >Giwer and retire?
> 
> Why did you not deal with this post.  It is because you know you are a bigot 
> and a liar.

Yes, Moran certainly is. In the worst way too- he's a _stupid_ liar: 

In article <31dd3267.3671351@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

Once more Moran breaks wind in alt.revisionism with yet another decietful
and worthless exposition in intellectual dishonesty:

>         
>                          Partial Repost
>                     from "Holocaust of Mind"
>                                     
> 
> V.                         Raul Hilberg,
>              "The Destruction of European Jews"
> 
> "On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
> Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
> Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
> Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
> postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
> laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
> to speak, nonexistent'".

"On October30, 1941, Gebeitskommisar Carl of Sluzk, WHite Russia, reported
to Kube that the 11th Lithuanian Police battalion had arrived in his city
and had come suddenly in order to wipe out the Jewish community. He had
pleaded with the battalion commander for a postponement, pointing out that
the Jews were working as skilled laborers and specialists and that White
Russian mechanics were, 'so to speak, nonexistant.' Certainly the skilled
men would have to be sifted out. The battalion commander did not
contradict him, and the interview ended upon a note of complete
understanding. The police battalion then encircled the Jewish quarter and
dragged out everybody. White Russians in the area tried desperately to get
out. Factories and workshops stopped fucntioning. The _Geibietskommissar_
hurried to the scene; he was shocked by what he saw. 'There was no
question of an action against the Jews anymore. It looked rather like a
revolution.' Shots were fired. Lithuanian police hit Jews with rifle butts
and rubber truncheons. Shops were turned inside out. Peasant carts
(_Panjewagen_) which had been ordered by the army to move ammunition stood
abandoned with their horses in the streets. Outside the town the mass
shootings were carried out hurredly. Some of the Jews, wounded but not
killed, worked themselves out of the graves. When the police battalion
departed, Gebeitskommisar Carl had a handful of Jewish workers left. In
every shop there were a few survivors, some of them with bloddy and
bruised faces, their wives and children dead." (Ibid. p.246.)

And what of such actions? What did they accomplish, besides brutal and
wanton mass murder? According to Hilberg a report dated December 2, 1941,
by an expert in the Armament Inspectorate, Oberkreigsverwaltungsrat
Professor Seraphim, to the chief of the Economy-Armaments Office in the
OKW summarized it thus:

"Serophim wrote that, obviously, 'the kind of solution of the Jewish
problem applied in the Ukraine' was based on ideological theories, not on
economic considerations. So far, 150,000 to 200,000 Jews had been
'executed' in the _Reichkommissariat_. One result of this operation was
that considerable numbers of 'superflous eaters' had been eliminated.
Undoubtably, the dead had also been a hostile element 'which hated us.' On
the other hand, the Jews had been 'anxious' and 'obliging' from the start.
They had tried to avoid everything that might have displeased the German
administration; they had played no significant part in sabotage; they had
constituted no danger to the armed forces. Although driven only by fear,
they had been producing goods in satisfactory quantities.

"Moreover the killing of the Jews could not be looked upon as an isolated
phenomenon. The city population and farm laborers were already starving.
'It must be realized,' concluded Seraphim, 'that in the Ukraine only
Ukranians can produce economic values. If we shoot the Jews, let the
prisoners of war perish, condemn considerable parts of the urban
population to death by starvation, and lose also part of the farming
population by hunger during the next year, the question remains
unanswered: Who in all the world is then supposed to produce something
valuable here?' The answer to this rhetorical question was soon to be
provided by Himmler's men.

"The sweep through the _Ostland_ in the fall of 1941 was only a warmup,
but it settled a decisive issue. The Jews were at the disposal of the
civil and military authorities only at the sufference of the SS and
Police. The killers had first claim. (Ibid. p.247.)


>         Stupid Russians.

Hardly. Stupid Nazis. And stupid Moran for taken Hilberg, who can easily
be verified, out of context.

>                             =================
> 
> 
> VI.          "The Destruction of the European Jewery"
>                         Raul Hilberg    
> 
>         "On Nov.7 Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw district proposed that
> the Warsaw Jews (whose number he estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated
> in a ghetto, and Frank gave his immediate consent... 

"...Across from the border of the incorporated territories, in the
_Generalgouvernement_, Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw District proposed,
as early as November 7, 1939, that the Warsaw Jews (who's number he
estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated in a ghetto. Frank gave his
immediate consent to the proposal, but the plan was premature. The
administrative obsticles were formidable; the emigration policy was still
in force; and the military offices in the city - to whom, in the meantime,
the Jews were appealing for intervention - were apparently opposed to the
whole idea. In February, 1940, the proposal was renewed by the SS and
Police, only to be opposed on administrative grounds by the civilian
offices in Warsaw. But the project was far from dead." (_Destruction_,
p.150.)

> ...During the winter, Fischer created a Resettlement Division under 
> Waldermar Schon, who was going to have a major role in ghetto planning...

I have no idea where this text is in _Destruction_. (I suspect it is not.)
The only mention of Scho"n in the index occurs on page 151 and reads:

"...However, as an excuse for the establishment of of the [Warsaw] ghetto,
the Jewish typhus cases were more important even than Jewish criminality
and the Jewish drive for world power. In February, 1941, the chief of the
Migration Section, in the Interior Division of the office of the Warsaw
_Gouverneur_, Reichsamtsleiter Scho"n, listed three reasons for the
ghettoization. His reasons, in order of importance, were the epidemics,
Jewish black-market activity and price gouging, and 'political and moral'
reasons. In March the Medical Division in the office of the Warsaw
_Gouverneur_, in co-operation with the Propaganda Division of the
district, launched a propaganda campaing directed at the Polish
population. The two divisions had devised a slogan which they circulated
on posters, in newspapers, in movies, and in schools. the slogan was
'Jews-Lice-Typhus' (Juden-La"use-Fleckfieber)." (Ibid. p.151.)

> ...The first idea, in February, to locate the ghetto in the eastern bank 
> of the Vistula River, was turned down ... 

I cannot find this text in _Destruction_. However, what Hilberg has to say
on the formation of the Warsaw ghetto is instructive:

"We need not discuss the details of the ghetto formation in Warsaw,
because they are quite similar to the administrative measures which had
been taken in Lodz..." (Ibid. p.151.)

> ...on the ground that 80 percent of Warsaw's artisans were Jews
>... and were indispensible ..."

Again, I have no idea where this text is in _Destruction_. (I suspect it
does not exist.) The only mention of arists (no mention of artisans) in
the index occurs on page 58:

"...When Goebbels, the party's propaganda chief, formed his Propaganda
Ministry, he began to issue decrees. One of the first measures was the
decree of October 4, 1933, which directed the newspapers to remove all
non-Aryan editors. Other regulations which followed assured ouster of
Jewish musicians, artists, writers, and so, by exluding them from the
guilds ('chambers'). No artist could practice unless he was a member of
one of the Goebbels-controlled guilds." (Ibid. p.58.)

One has to wonder what possible importance the Nazis would have attached
to artisans who were Polish Jews if they did not attach any importance to
artists who were German Jews whom they persecuted?

> Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more sense than the White
> Russians whose talents he claimed were for the most part "nonexistant"
> in relation to the Jews and the Poles in their own nation made up 20%.
> Either way - stupid Poles.

Not at all. Hilberg makes no such claims. Moran, twisting and distorting
Hilberg- not to mention fabricating quotes attributed to Hilberg out of
whole cloth -does. 

Case in point is this stupid innuendo about the White Russians.
Gebietskommissar Carl was quoted as saying that: "White Russian mechanics
were, 'so to speak, nonexistant." In other words, there weren't any
around. Probably because the Nazis either killed them all, or they were in
hiding, or they fled with the retreating Red Army. 

> One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he would profess the
> Jews have in America. 

Hardly. One _can_, however, wonder at the depths of intellectual depravity
that Moran will plumb in his Jew-bashing. So far the abyss of his
anti-Semitism and hatred appears bottomless. 

[Given the above pack of lies, deciet and distortions on Moran's part the
rest of his mental sewage is mercifully snipped]

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 06:52:58 PDT 1996
Article: 49365 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi142.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960630: Half-year milestone; white nationalist activist Marc Lemire CENSORED!!!
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:17:10 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1646 alt.revisionism:49365

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> In article <4rg7u0$q85@news.ios.com>,
> Mary Kravits  wrote:
> 
> > Your a filthy nazi bitch and I hope you get run over by a truck !
> 
> Mkravits' subsequent submission to this newsgroup _must_ be a troll --
> see <4rg7g7$p7h@news.ios.com>:
> 
>    Kennedy was a catholic,catholics commited mass murder in Span,the
>    hUN holy Romaan Empire,the crussades etc. catholic,nazi same thing.
>    catholics=nazi. Reperations should be collected from the vatican and
>    sent to Israel for the mass torment of the Jews. Evey catholic
>    should pay a fine to a Jew.
> 
> So I'm guessing this "filthy nazi bitch" crack must be a troll as well.
> 

Indeed. It's so... so... H*b*r-ish. (Or is that "H*b*r-*sh?") 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 06:52:59 PDT 1996
Article: 49369 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi142.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 23:38:32 -0700
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In article <836862228snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            mvanalst@rbi.com "Mark Van Alstine" writes:
> 
> > Oh, yes, Al, I seem to remember you bad-mouthing Blaha. And Bendal, and
> > Nyiszli, and Hart, and....
> 
> Blaha was a transparent liar, Bendel a fantasist, Nyiszli did not give 
> evidence anywhere and Hart's ghost written book is not worth the paper it is 
> printed on.

Classic Baron! Pavlov was right! Just ring the bell and.... 

> > Al, it seems like you have this seedy habit of bad-mouthing any eyewitness
> > to Nazi atrocities at the drop of a hat. Needless to say, you have not
> > provided any rational argument for, nor substantive rebuttal against, such
> > testimonies. 
> 
> I have indeed provided substantive refutations, certainly of Hart. Ask Mike
> Stein about my analysis in my "tribute" to Britain's police.

The same Hart who you said you "corrected" your lavatory "pamplets" in
regards to? As to your "tribute" to Britain's police, was it as
hilariously absurd as your "tribute" to Al Capone? 

Or are your "refutations" as "substantial" as your comments regarding
Jewish Ritual Murder? You know- the one where you tried to fob off that
article the anti-Semitic loon, the "gullible" Lady Birdwood, sent you? 
You remember it, I'm sure- the one you dropped like a hot potato when it
was exposed as nothing more than a pack of anti-Semitic lies? 

> > >I notice that Mr Giwer's constant reposts of the Dachau
> > > quote from the IMT has been methodically ignored. Like all the evidence 
> > > that refutes your officially sanctioned lies.
> > 
> > Maybe that's because the Troll is being ignored because he is an
> > unmitigated liar and a fraud? That his rants aren't even worth paying
> > attention to because they are so insane? Perhaps you should take note, Al?
> 
> Whatever you think of Mr Giwer - and I think he is a showman rather than an
> anti-Semite - you have still ignored his documentation of the Dachau nonsense.
> Ideology first, truth second with you boys all the time.

_What_ documentation, Al? Yours? Widmann's? Raven's? 

Surely, you jest! And please, try not to say the "T" word too much. Every
time _you_ get on your "ideological" high-horse and start to lecture about
Truth, I fall off my chair in a fit of laughter! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 06:52:59 PDT 1996
Article: 49370 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi142.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 23:39:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <4rs0o2$q7m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> ON July 5, 1996 Mark Van Alstine wrote
> 
> >Then please explain, Mr. Allen, the photo of Krema II, taken by the
> >Bauleitung, that _clearly_ shows three "little chimneys" on the >roof of
> L.Keller 1 (_Technique_, p.340, photos 17/17a).

> It does not clearly show three "little chimneys" unless you want to
> believe that is what the three boxes are.  

It cuts both ways, Mr. Allen. The difference being is that _I_ can point
to multiple independant pieces of _evidence_ that indicate that they are
indeed "little chimneys," while _you_ cannot "support" _your_ thesis
wthout resort to wild speculation. 

> In fact, it is pretty clear from the date of the photograph, that the
> three boxes could not have been "little chimneys".  

Nope. It only your wishful interpretation that, for some as yet
unspecified reason, you assert that L.Keller 1 could not have been
completed before L.Keller 2 was. 

> Of course, other evidence also rebutts the claim that the boxes are little 
> brick chimneys.

Nope. To date you ahve offered no such "other" evidence. (See below.) 

> The photograph was taken in late January 1943.      
> see. L'Album D'Auschwitz. (pg. 210 of the French version)
> as La photo P.M.O. neg. n. 20995/504 date a peu de 
> janvier 1943.  

Pressac cites this photograph as being taken between February 9 and 11,
1943. It is part of the "Kamann series" which also includes photos 14-16
(_Technique_, pp.338-339). 

> When one looks at the schedule of events that Pressac gives
> regarding Crema II.  see pg.  223 of Technique it is clear that completed
> "vent holes" in January were way out of sync with the rest of the project.

Let us examine the relevent chronology of Krema II:

Photo 14 (Ibid, p.338) shows the the roof to L.Keller 2 being prepared for
the pouring of the final layer of concrete. The date is January 25 or 26,
1943. 

In the summary of Kirschneck's inspection report, dated January 29, 1943,
he wrote (Ibid. p.214): 

"Krema II ... In this complex, I observed that the building with the
furnace room and its ancillary rooms is entirely completed, as is the
large corpse celler 1.

"Corpse cellar 2 is completed as far as possible aprt from the removal of
the formwork for the ceiling, work which depends on there being no
frost..." 

"...The 5 three-muffle incineration furnaces are completed and are at
present being warmed through to dry them. Delivery of the ventilation and
air extraction system  for the corpse cellars has been delayed by the
blockage of wagons, so that it will probably not be possible to install
them for another 10 days. It will certainly be possible to bring
Krematorium II into service on 15/3/43....

[Pressac notes: "In fact it was oficially handed over on 31/3/43, a month
and a half late."]

The above was also noted in Bischof's memorandum to Kammler on January 29,
1943 (Ibid. p.211):

"Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to
employing all available forces, despite enourmous difficulties and
freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit
in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Pru"fer of the firm responsible for
their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly.
Because of the the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the
formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence,
however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end [i.e. as a
morgue]."

[Note the use of "gassing cellar". In the origional text it is
"Vergasunskeller." This is one of slips made by the SS indicating that
L.Keller 1 was intended to be a homicidal gas chamber.]  

Clearly, the construction of L.Keller 1 was completed before L.Keller 2.
Both L.Kellers, and Krema II, were "completed but for minor details" at
this time. Therefore it is safe to assume that the roof of L.Keller 1 was
completed by the end of January 1943. 

An interesting aside is that on Febraury 10, 1942, work began on making an
opening in Krema III's L.Keller 2 for the _western access stairway_. This
was completed on February 15, 1942. (Ibid. p.217.) Obviously, such things
as cutting concrete to "retrofit" the L.Kellers for homicidal use was
undertaken. Why not "vent holes" in the roofs as well? 

> Pressac writes that the work on the ventilation system of Leichenkeller 1
> was worked on from March 1 through March 7 of 1943.   Plans for a further
> ventilation/heating system were also drafted in  March.  That is the same
> time period when the door to Leichenkeller 1 was ORDERED (March 6).   Both
> the door and the ventilation system would be necessary to make
> Leichenkeller 1 a gas chamber.  

First, Mr. Allen, do realize that:

"On 6th March, the Bauleitung ordered from the DAW metalworking and
woodworking shops <>." (Ibid. p.223.)

The door was for _Krema III_, Mr. Allen. NOT Krema II. 

Second, in regards to the "plans for a further ventilation/heating system"
in fact amounted to just installing "butterfly valves" in the ventilation
system for L.Keller 1. (See below). The purpose of which was to PREHEAT
L.Keller 1 "with hot air from the the three small rooms housing the motors
for the forced draught installation." Pressac specifically cites this as
another "criminal trace" indicating the homicidal intent of Krema II,
writing that "...it is incomprehensible and absurd that there should be
plans to heat a morgue, a place that by definition should be kept cool."
(Ibid.) 

This was not, Mr. Allen, as you imply, some all-encompassing re-design of
the ventilation system for L.Keller 1. Instead, it was an "hack" to
dissipate heat from forced draught installation while, at the same time,
preheating L.Keller 1 so that the HCN would evaporate from the Zyklon B
faster. 

BTW, thanks for bringing it up. 

To continue: 

As can be inferred from the above chronology, the "the ventilation and air
extraction system for the corpse cellars" had _already_ been ordered, but
was delayed, _before_ the end of January 1943. Some of the components were
delivered on February 11, 1942, but important components were still
missing. This evidently caused a bit of butt-chewing, sending of
telegrams, and telephone calls. In spite of all this, however, work on the
ventilation system for Krema II recommenced on February 11. The air
extraction fan for L.Keller 1 was installed on Febraury 25, 1942.  (Ibid.
pp.217-218,360-361.) 

The chronology of the installation of the ventilation system for L.Keller
1 can be gleaned from Pressac's summary of Messing's timesheets (Ibid.
p.370): 

"08/14.02 ...Air extractor fan for C-cellar I... Krematorium II worksite 30."

"22/28.02 ...Krematorium II, air extractor fan for C-cellar I refitted.
Work on air extraction duct for C-cellar II."

"01/07.03 ...Worksite 30 butterfly valves installed in ventilation and
extraction installations for C 1. These installations put into service."

08/14.03 ...Worksite 30. Air extraction ducts for undressing cellar
fitted. Test operation of ventilation and extraction for C cellar 1. Work
on air extraction installations for undressing cellar. Ventilation and
extraction cellar 1 brought into service (13.3.43). Work on air extraction
duct for undressing cellar 2."

[Note that Messing slipped up and called L.Keller 2 a "undressing cellar"
(Auskleidekeller). Yet another indication of the homicidal purpose
intended for Krema II. In addition, another damning pieve of evidence was
Messings mention of a telegram that said: "Send immediately 10 gas
detectors as arranged verbally..." Obviously the same 10 gas detectors
mentioned in Pru"fer's infamous memo about 10 prussic acid gas detectors
(_Anatomy_, pp. 230-231; _Technique_. pp. 370).] 

Clearly, by March 13 or 14, 1943, the ventilation system for K.Keller 1
was operational. On March 13, according to Czech, 1,492 Jews from Ghetto B
in Krakau (Cracow) were killed in Krema II's L.Keller 1 (_Auschwitz
Chronicle_, p.352). According to Pressac they were killed on March 14
(_Technique_. p.227). 

Now, let's re-cap the situation. The roofs of _both_ L.Kellers were in
place by the end of Janaury, 1943. In fact, according to Document 34
(Ibid. p. 373) we can see in the photgraph of Krema II, taken in early or
mid-January 1943, that L.Keller 1's roof has been completed, as there is
snow on it. We also know, from Messing's work timesheets, that the
ventilation system of L.Keller 1 was finished, tested, and put into
service by March 13 or 14, 1943. And where do the 
"little chimneys" fit into all this?

Three of the "little chimneys" can be seen on the roof of L.Keller 1 in
Photos 17/17 (cf. Ibid. p.340), which are noted as probably being taken
between February 9 and 11, 1943. This would mean that they (and the vents
they cover) were installed after the roof of L.Keller 1 was completed and
before the ventilation system was put into service. 

This can _hardly_ be characterized as being "way out of sync with the rest
of the project." Just the opposite, in fact. Your argument that it is, Mr.
Allen, is completely without foundation. 

> A modification in either the door or ventilation system could eliminate 
> the need for ventholes in the roof yet, if the picture does show 
> "chimneys", they would have to have been planned and installed  well 
> over a month prior to other requisite parts even having been ORDERED.  

The fallacy of this argument, Mr. Allen, is two-fold: First, the parts for
the ventilation system of Krema II were _ordered_ well _before_ the
"little chimneys" were installed. Their delivery was simply delayed. (See
above.) Second, your claim that SS _could_ have modified the "door" (the
gas-tight door to L.Keller 1?) and the ventillation system (which was
_already_ spec'ed out) to eliminate, in essence, the planned Zyklon B
introduction system, is specious. Clearly, they did _not_. 

> Another anomaly  appears in timing if we agree that the
> vents were not part of the original pour.   (which I think is 
> generally admitted). 

There is no "anomaly," Mr. Allen. Just figments of your imagination. 

> That is, the pouring of the concrete and the creation of the holes and 
> chimneys would have had to have happened within days of each other.  
> This would require a change in plans of the Leichenkeller sometime
> early in January, 1943. 

Another specious argument, Mr. Allen. There was no compelling reason that
_required_ the vents to be cut into the roof of L.Keller 1 within days of
it being poured. They, and the Zyklon B introduction system, simply had to
be in plac _before_ L.Keller 1 was to be _used_ as a homicidal gas
chamber. The window for doing this was nearly _two_ months time.
(Mid-January to mid-March 1943.) 

> Another anomaly exists between the photos on page 340 and the aerial
> photograph which showed FOUR marks spaced equidistant down the roof of the
> Leichenkeller. 

A false "anomaly," Mr. Allen. Obviously, the photo was taken _before_ the
_fourth_ "little chimney" was built. Your are trying to build a strawman
to knock down with such "anomalies." Sorry, that is being dishonest.
Arguing that the photo only shows three "little chimneys" while the Krema
was still under construction is like saying that there is an "anomoly"
between the Bauleitung contruction photos that show Krema II partially
built and the aerial photos taken nearly 18 months _later_ that show a
completed Krema II! 
 
> Of course, for me, the determinative fact, is that there 
> are NO holes in the roof at the locations of the three boxes
> in the pictures.

An ipse dixit claim you have failed, time and time again, Mr. Allen, to
substantiate with evidence. Instead, you have tried to "prove" that
L.Keller 1 had no Zyklon introduction system by first claiming "no bolt
holes" in the ceiling, then "no bolt holes" in the floor, then that the
"little chimneys" NEVER existed, and just recently, that they were boxes
of roofing material. Claims, mind you, that have all been successfully
rebutted.

In short, Mr. Allen, you're up the creek without a paddle. 

> Thus, the facile claim that the three boxes are "proof"
> of anything is very weak and is supported more by a desperate eagerness to
> believe  than anything else.  

Argumentum ad hominem, Mr. Allen. I have offered detailed rebuttals to
your arguments showing that your have made, at best, erroneous conclusions
>from  the available evidence. 

> The claim that the picture proves your  "little chimneys" theory   is 
>contradicted  by 1) documents of  construction, 2) other photographs and  3) 
>physical evidence at the site.

On the contrary, Mr. Allen, I have shown (above) just the opposite! I have
shown that _your_ claims and conclusions are specious and without merit.

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49374 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi142.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran demonstrates his idiocy... (was Re: African Americans?d)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:14:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References:  <4rv6m2$bkl@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi142.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4rv6m2$bkl@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   anakin@pinc.com (Rajiv K. Gandhi) writes:
> >  In article <31e1c0e1.13746519@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
> >  moran) wrote:
> 
> >  >         Generally I just delete anything with titles like the one here,
> >  > without even bothering to look at them. 
>   
> >  Why ? How much of an idiot are you ?
> 
>         What a straight line!

Indeed! The answer is obvious: As much of an idiot as Moran can possibly be! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:01 PDT 1996
Article: 49393 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!miwok!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi142.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 15:38:10 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <31d31a33.1226300@news.eden.com> <4r1hqg$7cc@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4re8m7$qn0@access5.digex.net>  <4ri0k4$28d4@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi142.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ri0k4$28d4@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) said:
> 
> >Indeed. The Troll has posted (and e-mailed me) scanned photos. That he
> >might posses a scanner is a distinct possibility, I would think. Or
> >perhaps others are feeding him his material? 
> 
> You mean, a ... er... conspiracy?!!?!

 Heaven forbid! Who knows what new hiliarity might spew forth! };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 12:39:41 PDT 1996
Article: 49467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.neca.com!news2.interlog.com!n2tor.istar!tor.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can Tom Moran Read? (Re: Racism in Holocaust books)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:07:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <31e006f4.316422@news.pacificnet.net> <4rsfq5$juv@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4rsfq5$juv@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
>  
> >       I would liken your stuff to a football game. We have the players
> >  who get out there and do the central process and the cheer leaders.
> 
>         And the people like you who have been playing without a helmet.

Yup, it sure does play hell with one's ability to carry on an intelligent
conversation when they tackle goalposts.... Repeatedly. Poor Moran. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 11 17:47:36 PDT 1996
Article: 49736 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: - syringe.jpg (0/1) Re: Phenol or Gas
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:19:15 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <4rl3ln$ilv@juliana.sprynet.com>  <4rp4ht$2gq@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E02885.2ED9@unb.ca> <4rt6hv$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31E2E978.80B@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31E2E978.80B@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> The Troll wrote:

[snip]

> > Have you EVER seen a six inch needle?  Have you ever seen the two inch
> > nail?
> 
> A six inch needle?  Sure.  I don't hang around hospitals so I can't
> say what sizes they have in stock, but I know vets working on farm
> animals carry a variety of needles, some rather large.  At least the
> one who visited my grandfather's farm did.
> 
> And a two inch nail?  Try either Ace Hardware or the local cosmetics
> counter.

Indeed! };-> 

Or, one might try the attached image file, which is a photo of a
hypodermic syringe used by the SS to administer phenol injections. (cf.
_Auschwitz: a history in photographs_, p.109.)

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 11 18:47:02 PDT 1996
Article: 49746 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: - syringe.jpg (1/1) Re: Phenol or Gas
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:19:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 130
Message-ID: 
References: <4rl3ln$ilv@juliana.sprynet.com>  <4rp4ht$2gq@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E02885.2ED9@unb.ca> <4rt6hv$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31E2E978.80B@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

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`
end
END -- Cut Here -- cut here


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 12 07:00:08 PDT 1996
Article: 49778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news-feed.iguide.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi142.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 16:48:18 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
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In article <4ru28s$mbf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> Joel Rosenberg wrote:
> 
> >The convenience of Bradley Smith and the whole CODOH gang isn't very high
> on 
> >my list of important things in life. 
> 
> First they inconvenienced the revisionists, but I was not a revisionist,
> so I said nothing.  Next they inconvenienced the politically incorrect,
> but I was not politically incorrect, so I said nothing.  Finally they
> "incovenienced" xxxxxxxxx (fill in your name).  

One day Peter cried "Wolf!" (but there was no wolf) and the villagers came
running. Peter laughed and the villagers went away angry. The next day
Peter again cried "Wolf!" (but there was no wolf) and the villagers came
running again. Peter laughed and the villagers went away very angry. The
next day after that the wolf came and Peter, being scared shitless, cried
"WOLF! WOLF! WOLF!" but the villagers, remembering Peter's trickery and
how he laughed at them, said to themselves "Screw Peter!" and did not
come.... 

And the wolf laughed and ate Peter's sorry ass.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 12 07:00:11 PDT 1996
Article: 49826 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism in Holocaust books
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:51:37 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 191
Message-ID: 
References: <31dd3267.3671351@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31dd3267.3671351@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

Once more Moran breaks wind in alt.revisionism with yet another decietful
and worthless exposition in intellectual dishonesty:

>         
>                          Partial Repost
>                     from "Holocaust of Mind"
>                                     
> 
> V.                         Raul Hilberg,
>              "The Destruction of European Jews"
> 
> "On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
> Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
> Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
> Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
> postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
> laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
> to speak, nonexistent'".

"On October30, 1941, Gebeitskommisar Carl of Sluzk, WHite Russia, reported
to Kube that the 11th Lithuanian Police battalion had arrived in his city
and had come suddenly in order to wipe out the Jewish community. He had
pleaded with the battalion commander for a postponement, pointing out that
the Jews were working as skilled laborers and specialists and that White
Russian mechanics were, 'so to speak, nonexistant.' Certainly the skilled
men would have to be sifted out. The battalion commander did not
contradict him, and the interview ended upon a note of complete
understanding. The police battalion then encircled the Jewish quarter and
dragged out everybody. White Russians in the area tried desperately to get
out. Factories and workshops stopped fucntioning. The _Geibietskommissar_
hurried to the scene; he was shocked by what he saw. 'There was no
question of an action against the Jews anymore. It looked rather like a
revolution.' Shots were fired. Lithuanian police hit Jews with rifle butts
and rubber truncheons. Shops were turned inside out. Peasant carts
(_Panjewagen_) which had been ordered by the army to move ammunition stood
abandoned with their horses in the streets. Outside the town the mass
shootings were carried out hurredly. Some of the Jews, wounded but not
killed, worked themselves out of the graves. When the police battalion
departed, Gebeitskommisar Carl had a handful of Jewish workers left. In
every shop there were a few survivors, some of them with bloddy and
bruised faces, their wives and children dead." (Ibid. p.246.)

And what of such actions? What did they accomplish, besides brutal and
wanton mass murder? According to Hilberg a report dated December 2, 1941,
by an expert in the Armament Inspectorate, Oberkreigsverwaltungsrat
Professor Seraphim, to the chief of the Economy-Armaments Office in the
OKW summarized it thus:

"Serophim wrote that, obviously, 'the kind of solution of the Jewish
problem applied in the Ukraine' was based on ideological theories, not on
economic considerations. So far, 150,000 to 200,000 Jews had been
'executed' in the _Reichkommissariat_. One result of this operation was
that considerable numbers of 'superflous eaters' had been eliminated.
Undoubtably, the dead had also been a hostile element 'which hated us.' On
the other hand, the Jews had been 'anxious' and 'obliging' from the start.
They had tried to avoid everything that might have displeased the German
administration; they had played no significant part in sabotage; they had
constituted no danger to the armed forces. Although driven only by fear,
they had been producing goods in satisfactory quantities.

"Moreover the killing of the Jews could not be looked upon as an isolated
phenomenon. The city population and farm laborers were already starving.
'It must be realized,' concluded Seraphim, 'that in the Ukraine only
Ukranians can produce economic values. If we shoot the Jews, let the
prisoners of war perish, condemn considerable parts of the urban
population to death by starvation, and lose also part of the farming
population by hunger during the next year, the question remains
unanswered: Who in all the world is then supposed to produce something
valuable here?' The answer to this rhetorical question was soon to be
provided by Himmler's men.

"The sweep through the _Ostland_ in the fall of 1941 was only a warmup,
but it settled a decisive issue. The Jews were at the disposal of the
civil and military authorities only at the sufference of the SS and
Police. The killers had first claim. (Ibid. p.247.)


>         Stupid Russians.

Hardly. Stupid Nazis. And stupid Moran for taken Hilberg, who can easily
be verified, out of context.

>                             =================
> 
> 
> VI.          "The Destruction of the European Jewery"
>                         Raul Hilberg    
> 
>         "On Nov.7 Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw district proposed that
> the Warsaw Jews (whose number he estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated
> in a ghetto, and Frank gave his immediate consent... 

"...Across from the border of the incorporated territories, in the
_Generalgouvernement_, Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw District proposed,
as early as November 7, 1939, that the Warsaw Jews (who's number he
estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated in a ghetto. Frank gave his
immediate consent to the proposal, but the plan was premature. The
administrative obsticles were formidable; the emigration policy was still
in force; and the military offices in the city - to whom, in the meantime,
the Jews were appealing for intervention - were apparently opposed to the
whole idea. In February, 1940, the proposal was renewed by the SS and
Police, only to be opposed on administrative grounds by the civilian
offices in Warsaw. But the project was far from dead." (_Destruction_,
p.150.)

> ...During the winter, Fischer created a Resettlement Division under 
> Waldermar Schon, who was going to have a major role in ghetto planning...

I have no idea where this text is in _Destruction_. (I suspect it is not.)
The only mention of Scho"n in the index occurs on page 151 and reads:

"...However, as an excuse for the establishment of of the [Warsaw] ghetto,
the Jewish typhus cases were more important even than Jewish criminality
and the Jewish drive for world power. In February, 1941, the chief of the
Migration Section, in the Interior Division of the office of the Warsaw
_Gouverneur_, Reichsamtsleiter Scho"n, listed three reasons for the
ghettoization. His reasons, in order of importance, were the epidemics,
Jewish black-market activity and price gouging, and 'political and moral'
reasons. In March the Medical Division in the office of the Warsaw
_Gouverneur_, in co-operation with the Propaganda Division of the
district, launched a propaganda campaing directed at the Polish
population. The two divisions had devised a slogan which they circulated
on posters, in newspapers, in movies, and in schools. the slogan was
'Jews-Lice-Typhus' (Juden-La"use-Fleckfieber)." (Ibid. p.151.)

> ...The first idea, in February, to locate the ghetto in the eastern bank 
> of the Vistula River, was turned down ... 

I cannot find this text in _Destruction_. However, what Hilberg has to say
on the formation of the Warsaw ghetto is instructive:

"We need not discuss the details of the ghetto formation in Warsaw,
because they are quite similar to the administrative measures which had
been taken in Lodz..." (Ibid. p.151.)

> ...on the ground that 80 percent of Warsaw's artisans were Jews
>... and were indispensible ..."

Again, I have no idea where this text is in _Destruction_. (I suspect it
does not exist.) The only mention of arists (no mention of artisans) in
the index occurs on page 58:

"...When Goebbels, the party's propaganda chief, formed his Propaganda
Ministry, he began to issue decrees. One of the first measures was the
decree of October 4, 1933, which directed the newspapers to remove all
non-Aryan editors. Other regulations which followed assured ouster of
Jewish musicians, artists, writers, and so, by exluding them from the
guilds ('chambers'). No artist could practice unless he was a member of
one of the Goebbels-controlled guilds." (Ibid. p.58.)

One has to wonder what possible importance the Nazis would have attached
to artisans who were Polish Jews if they did not attach any importance to
artists who were German Jews whom they persecuted?

> Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more sense than the White
> Russians whose talents he claimed were for the most part "nonexistant"
> in relation to the Jews and the Poles in their own nation made up 20%.
> Either way - stupid Poles.

Not at all. Hilberg makes no such claims. Moran, twisting and distorting
Hilberg- not to mention fabricating quotes attributed to Hilberg out of
whole cloth -does. 

Case in point is this stupid innuendo about the White Russians.
Gebietskommissar Carl was quoted as saying that: "White Russian mechanics
were, 'so to speak, nonexistant." In other words, there weren't any
around. Probably because the Nazis either killed them all, or they were in
hiding, or they fled with the retreating Red Army. 

> One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he would profess the
> Jews have in America. 

Hardly. One _can_, however, wonder at the depths of intellectual depravity
that Moran will plumb in his Jew-bashing. So far the abyss of his
anti-Semitism and hatred appears bottomless. 

[Given the above pack of lies, deciet and distortions on Moran's part the
rest of his mental sewage is mercifully snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 12 11:09:54 PDT 1996
Article: 49872 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!sdd.hp.com!sgigate.sgi.com!cygnus.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:49:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 146
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References:  <4rvgkk$dr2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4rvgkk$dr2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

>  ON Jul 9, 1996 Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> >But, of course, Mr. Allen, this has nothing to do with the 
> >fact that you now claim that the "little chimneys" were
> >boxes of roofing material left on the roofs of the L.Kellers 
> for nearly 18 months! 
> 
> The aerial photograph shows 4 marks on the roof of
> Leichenkeller 1, not three, and,  more importantly, shows 
> the marks in different locations than the boxes in the 
> late January 1943 photograph.  
> It contradicts the January photograph! 
> HOLES CAN'T MOVE AROUND IN CONCRETE.

Mr. Allen, the Bauleitung photo of Krema II that shows the three "little
chimneys" also shows that the chimney of Krema II was incomplete. Yet in
the aerial photographs that show the Kremas with four "little chimneys"
Krema III has a completed chimney. By your (above) reasoning the photos
would "contradict" each other because of this! Such a conclusion, of
course, would be erroneous because the two photos were taken at (widely)
different times from each other. The Bauleitung photo was taken while the
Kremas were still under construction and the air photo was taken well
after they were completed. 

So too, for the same reason, is your assertion of a "contradiction" in the
number of "little chimneys" also erroneous. Obviously, in the Bauleitung
photo, not all the "little chimneys" had been contructed when the photo
was taken. When the (much) later air photos of the _completed_ (and
operational) Kremas were taken the "little chimney" that was "missing" on
Krema II's L.Keller 1 in the Bauleitung photo had been erected. 

> Why is it that you Hoaxter guys have such problems with holes? 
> Morris thinks the Germans "forgot" to put the holes in; Pressac thinks the
> holes "shifted" because of the collapse of the roof;  Keren can't count
> holes, you mix up manholes and vent holes?
> HOLES CAN'T MOVE AROUND IN CONCRETE. 

And you, Mr. Allen, are grasping at straws with such absurd conjecture. 

> Of course, the simple fact, written in concrete, is that
> there are NO HOLES at the location of the boxes in the
> January 1943 photograph. 

By "January 1943 photograph" I assume you mean the Bauleitung photo (cf.
_Technique_, p.373) that shows L.Keller 1 with snow on its roof and no
"little chimneys?" 

So? If the holes were not made when the roof was poured, could not the
holes simply be made in the roof afterwards, Mr. Allen? It would seem a
rather mundane task, I would think, to make holes in the concrete roof.

> Of course, the starting point is that the one clear photograph  that
> we have of the roof of Leichenkeller 1 Crema II,  Technique pg. 373 shows
> NO HOLES.  This picture (taken in midjanuary) was probably taken just a
> few days before the picture with the boxes (late January).  

The time between the two photos, Mr. Allen is certainly under dispute. You
say  a "few days." By the dates for the phots that Pressac gives, it
appears to be a few _weeks_. 

> Again, the starting point of any discussion is that the roof was poured 
> without holes.

An irrelevent "starting point," Mr. Allen. 

> Since you now have learned (hopefully) that the roof 
> has 3 layers,  you will also realize that the laying of the 
> asphalt layers (or layers) as well of the pouring of the 
> concrete cap, let alone the chipping of your alleged "vent
> holes" and the building of your little chimneys could not
> have taken place in the time between the holeless picture 
> of midJanuary and the one with the boxes. (late January)

Really? I would disgaree, Mr. Allen. You seem to think, for unspecified
reasons, that holes for the Zyklon B introduction columns could not be
made in the roof in a "few days." I find yout claim to be completely
without substance y the simple fact that Huta (the construction firm
building the Krema shells) installed the western access stairway of Krema
III's L.Keller 2 in six days. (cf. Ibid. p.217). To do this, Mr. Allen,
Huta had to cut a doorway into the wall of L.Keller 2. Obviously, if
cutting a door into concrete and dampproofing _and_ constructing the
stairway was accoplished in six days, then cutting four holes in the roof
for the Zyklon B introduction columns should have taken no more time than
a "few days." 

> Since you now know that the door to Leichenkeller one
> was not ordered until March 10th  you will recognize that it is out of the
> normal order of events to claim that the "vents"and chimneys were designed
> and built  1 1/2 months earlier.
> ie.  if you are putting in vent holes you know you are going to need a
> gaschamber door too, why wait to order it?
> 
> Since you know that the ventilation system was still
> being designed and installed in March you will recognize that it is out of
> the normal order of events to claim that the "vents" and chimneys were
> designed and built  by late January since the design and installation of
> the ventilation system could effect the need for "vent holes".

Mr. Allen I've dealt with these phony issues of yours in another post. To
recap, however, let me point out that the gas-tight door to L.Keller 1 you
speak of was for Krema III. Your claim that the ventilation system was
"being desinged" in March is false, as the ventilation system was simply
modified slightly to preheat L.Keller 1 with hot air from the forced
draught installation. Your concern over the ventilation system being
finished in March (work on the Krema II's ventilation system was begun in
February) "could effect the need for 'vent holes'" is specious as L.Keller
1's ventilation system was desinged to aerate/deaerate the L.Keller from
the begining. 

In short, Mr. Allen, your claims are baseless and without merit. 

> Since I have pointed out to you that the snow on the 
> Leichenkeller roof has melted in the box picture but seems
> to still be on the top of the boxes you can figure out if warm air was
> rising out of holes in the roof inside the boxes.

A specious comparison, Mr. Allen. L.Keller 1 did not have 5 tripple-muffle
Topf furnaces burning away in it. The furnace hall of Krema II did. The
furnaces were probably operational some time between January 24 and 29,
1943. (cf. Ibid., pp.211, 213).

> In short, whatever the boxes on the roof were,  the
> evidence is massive that they were not little chimneys
> around vent holes.

Mr. Allen, your attempts to argue this have been rebutted. Move on. 

> My guess....

Exactly! You guess. Badly. Enough said.

[snip]

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 12 11:09:56 PDT 1996
Article: 49875 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:12:59 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References:  <4ruq5i$2kt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ruq5i$2kt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> I have seen the aerial photos of Auschwitz as well, and three boxes does
> not equal four irregular black splotches such as are evident in the
> photographs.  Occam's Razor will lead us first to question the association
> of the three boxes and the four irregular black splotches in the first
> place.

One may also question the reasoning ability of certain people who seem
unable to take into consideration that the _three_ "little chinmneys shown
in the Bauleitung photo was taken while Krema II was still under
_contstruction_ about 18 months _before_ the aerial photos showing _four_
"little chimmney" on the roof of Kremas II and III were taken. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 12 11:09:56 PDT 1996
Article: 49889 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism in Holocaust books
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:34:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References:  <4s5rv8$qnb@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4s5rv8$qnb@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >
> >One has to wonder what possible importance the Nazis would have attached
> >to artisans who were Polish Jews if they did not attach any importance to
> >artists who were German Jews whom they persecuted?
> >
> >
> 
> There is a difference between an artist and an artisan.  Artisan means
> here *craftsman*, that is, skilled laborer.

Mea culpa! (And I _knew_ that too, but _still_ screwed up! Rats.) 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 12 12:25:54 PDT 1996
Article: 74770 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 12 18:45:22 PDT 1996
Article: 49929 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:31:59 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article ,
Marty Kelley  wrote:

[snip]

> Tom Moran is a genius at reading between the lines!  He knows that the
> words "I strongly protest this action" REALLY mean "I support this action,
> but I really am very happy about it, but I'm saying I protest it in an
> attempt to fool clever fellows like Tom Moran, who always knows what
> people really mean."
> 
> I guess this is what Tom Moran means by critical thinking...

Actually, I thought Moran meant that his brain was suffering a meltdown.... 

You know, the Moranic(tm) Syndrome.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 13 11:00:41 PDT 1996
Article: 49951 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:39:36 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <837211327snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            mvanalst@rbi.com "Mark Van Alstine" writes:
> > The same Hart who you said you "corrected" your lavatory "pamplets" in
> > regards to? As to your "tribute" to Britain's police, was it as
> > hilariously absurd as your "tribute" to Al Capone? 
> 
> Believe it or not I have a phone call from the Organised Crime squad at 
> New Scotland Yard about that. Yes, Organised fucking crime!

Really, Al? Did they bring you in for questioning too? 

> > Or are your "refutations" as "substantial" as your comments regarding
> > Jewish Ritual Murder? You know- the one where you tried to fob off that
> > article the anti-Semitic loon, the "gullible" Lady Birdwood, sent you? 
> > You remember it, I'm sure- the one you dropped like a hot potato when it
> > was exposed as nothing more than a pack of anti-Semitic lies? 
> 
> What the fuck are you talking about? I've never believed in Jewish Ritual
> Murder and have gone on record as such.

Of course you have, Al. I suppose that's also why you pimped Lady
Birdwood's article on Jewish Ritual Murder? 

> > > > Maybe that's because the Troll is being ignored because he is an
> > > > unmitigated liar and a fraud? That his rants aren't even worth paying
> > > > attention to because they are so insane? Perhaps you should take note, 
> > > > Al?
> 
> Unfortunately not, I've got the document that quote is taken from, Volume 
> XXX of the IMT.

Oh, right. Didn't the Troll try present part of an _indictment_ as
evidence? Go figure. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 13 11:00:44 PDT 1996
Article: 49965 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:34:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
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In article <4s2gv9$l7f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4s1euc$4n6@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
> (Richard J. Green) writes:
> 
> >
> >In article <4rvhju$6th@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>,
> >Richard J. Green  wrote:
> >
> >>84. Ho"ss, _Kommandant, p. 159.  The same preparation was used for the
> >>delousing of clothes.  _Ibid._  Most documents relating to the shipment
> >>of the gas [sic] to camps simply state Zyklon.  See, however, 1944
> >>correspondance with B designation in documents NI-9909 and NI-9913.
> >
> >Which obviously solves the blueness issue, i.e. it was a Ho"ss of a
> >different color.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Rich Green
> >
> >
> 
> Thank you for a pleasing shaft of humor.

Is that like:  "Thank you, sir! May I please have another!"  };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 13 11:00:45 PDT 1996
Article: 49969 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Statistics, statistics, anybody got statistics?
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:33:06 -0700
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In article <31e6705c.0@news.nethawk.com>, 1163@nethawk.com (Richard
Harrold) wrote:

> bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
> 
> >I posted, some time ago, some stats from the FBI Unified Crime Report that
> >stated that, in a given year, 9,405 negroes raped White women, while only
> >TEN white men raped negresses in the same year (I think it was 1992).

Note: Some time ago Mr.Griswold stated, at one point, that ZERO blacks
were raped by whites. When asked for his source, Mr.Griswold did not
intially supply any. Then when he cited the FBI as the source, it was also
pointed out to him that the FBI DOES NOT track rape statistics and that
was done by the BJS. 

> >(Source:  Jared Taylor's _Paved With Good Intentions_, figures repeated on
> >an ADV radio broadcast).  Charles R.L. Power came rushing to the defense of
> >his noble dusky brothers by posting the "true and correct" figures, which 
> >showed some 3,000+ black-on-white rapes, and 2,000+ white-on-black rapes.  
> >THAT was a real kick in the pants for me, right?  Wrong!
> 
> >See, negroes are only 1/6th as numerous as whites (in the U.S. of A.). 
> >Therefore, one would expect that they would only commit 1/6th the amount of 
> >crime that whites do, right? But they don't!  The liberal position (i.e., 
> >negroes are the equal, in every way, of whites) takes a big header into the
> >dumpster of Reality!  And the beautiful thing is, they did it to themselves, 
> >and the REALLY beautiful thing is, they're too dumb to realize it!
> 

According to "Black Victims" (NCJ-122562):

"Blacks had higher robbery rates than whites for both males and females.
Robbery rates per 1,000 persons were 18 robberies for black males, 7 for
white males, 9 for black females, and 4 for white females. Robbery rates
were higher for blacks than for whites for all age and marital status
catagories and nearly all levels of family income. Robbery rates for
blacks and whites with family incomes of $50,000 or more did not differ.
(Ibid. p.1.)

"In central cities, blacks had higher robbery and household burglary rates
than whites regardless of the age or family income of the victim or
household head. In the suberbs and nonmetropolitan areas, blacks had
higher rates than whites for these crimes but there were fewer measurable
differences when age, family income, and home ownership were taken into
account. (Ibid.)

"...NCS data have consistantly shown that certain population groups,
especially males, the poor younger persons, and central-city residents,
have higher victimization rates than others. Blacks in the United States
are more likely than whites to be in some of these groups associated with
a higher rate of victimization. From 1979 to 1986, 56% of blacks and 24%
of whites lived in central cities.... Blacks also tend to have lower
familiy incomes than whites. The percentage of those with family incomes
below $7,500 was 32% for blacks and 13% for whites. (Ibid. p.3.)

Workers as a Proportion of All Poor Persons for 1986 (Numbers in thousands)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor persons 16 years and over
---------------------------------------------
                           Worked year-round
              Worked           full-time
Total    ------------------ -----------------
         Number   Percent   Number   Percent
------------------------------------------------------------
20,688   8,743     42.3     2,007      9.7

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov18.prn


Poverty of Persons by Residence for 1986 (Numbers in Thousands)
________________________________________________________________________
   Metropolitan      Central City    Not Central City  Non-Metropolitan
------------------ ----------------- ----------------- -----------------
  Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 22,657   2.3      13,295   18.0      9,362   8.4       9,712   18.1

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov8.prn


Distribution of the Poor by Race for 1986 (Numbers in Thousands)

     White             Black    
-----------------   -----------------
 Number  Percent     Number  Percent  
-------------------------------------

 22,183    68.5      8,983     27.8 

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov14.prn


What the above appears indicate is that blacks are by no means "the equal
in every way of whites." Blacks, in porportion to their percentage of the
overall population, are poorer, and thus more prone to live in central
cities. Given that the crime rates for Metropolitan areas (e.g. the
central city) are the hishest, the causual relationship between being
poor, living in a Metropolitan area, and higher crime- and victimization
rates- for blacks is somewhat compelling. This is further reinforced by
the evidence that blacks who enjoy a high level of annual income
($50,000), or a comparible quality of life, have comparable victimization
rates to whites.

Considering this, the only thing taking "a big header into the dumpster of
Reality" appears to be Mr.Griswold's ability to understand the use (and
mis-use) od statistics. And the beautiful thing is, he did it to himself.
And the REALLY beautiful thing is he's too dumb to realize it!

> Hey Griswold, name the document, because I have access to the complete
> Univorm Crime Statistics and I'm subscribed to the Bureau of Justice
> Statistics and NO WHERE IS THAT INFORMATION TO BE FOUND!
> 
> So why don't you cite the actual document and page number so I can
> find it if in fact I am in error. but as far as I can tell, YOUR
> DOCUMENT DOES NOT EXIST!
> 
> What is true is WOMEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MURDERED BY THEIR
> HUSBANDS, BOYFRIENDS OR EX-BOYFRIENDS THAN BY A STRANGER!
> 
> Women are MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED DURING AN ASSAULT BY SOMEONE THEY
> KNOW THAN BY A STRANGER!
> 
> And the UCR shows overwhelmingly THAT CRIME VICTIMS ARE MOST OFTEN
> ASSAULTED BY A PERPETRATOR OF THE SAME RACE!

>From  "Black Victims," (NCJ-122562); p.9:

=============================================================================

Table 16. Race of victim, by race and number of offenders, 1979-86

Number of offenders by    Crimes of                  Aggravated  Simple
victim/offender race      violence   Rape   Robbery  assault     assualt
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Single-offender
victimizations

  Total                     100%     100%    100%      100%       100% 

    White victims           
      White offenders        69       63      44        67         76
      Black offenders        15       15      31        13         12
      Other race offenders    3        5       4         3          3

    Black victims           
      White offenders         2        2*      2         2          1
      Black offenders        11       16      19        15          8
      Other race offenders   --       --*      1        --         --


Multiple-offender
victimizations

  Total                     100%     100%    100%      100%       100% 

    White victims           
      White offenders        53       39      28        61         66
      Black offenders        21       22      34        14         14
      Other race offenders    4        5*      4         4          3
      Mixed racial groups     6       12       7         6          6

    Black victims           
      White offenders         2        4*      2         2          2
      Black offenders        13       16      22        11          8
      Other race offenders    1        1*      1        11          8
     Mixed racial groups      1        1*      2         1          1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Percentages may not total 100% because of rounding. Excludes crimes
where the number of offenders was not known or not ascertained. *Estimate
is based on 10 or fewer sample cases; see _Methodology_. -- Less than 0.5
%

=============================================================================


>From  "Black Victims," (NCJ-122562); p.9:

=============================================================================

Table 17. Victim-offender relationship In violent crimes, 1979-86

                              Type of crime and race of victim
                  ---------------------------------------------------------
Type of crime       Crimes of                   Aggravated       Simple
     and            violence*      Robbery      assault          assault
race of victim    ------------   ------------   ------------   ------------ 
                  White  Black   White  Black   White  Black   White  Black
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Total           100%   100%    100%   100%    100%   100%    100%   100%

Stranger           58     54      75     75      60     46      52     42
Non-Stranger       38     42      21     20      34     48      44     54
Don't know/         4      5       4      5       6      6       3      3
not ascertained

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Percentages may not total 100% because of rounding.
Multiple-offender victimizations are classified by the most intimate
relationship between the victim and one of the offenders. *include data on
rape, not shown seperately.

=============================================================================

> 
> Consider this document titled "Violence Against Women: Estimates from
> the redesigned National Crime Victimization Survey." THis is what the
> document DOES SAY about women and the crimes committed against them:
> 
> --Out of 500,000 rapes and other assaults (excluding murder) reported
> in 1992-93, only 1 in 5 were reportedly committed by a perpertrator
> the victim did not know, that is, a stranger.
> 
> --Women were about six times more likely than men to experience
> violence at the hands of a spouse, ex-spouse, or intimate friend.
> 
> --More than half of all the assaults and rapes reported were committed
> by persons the victim intimately knew. When considering only rapes,
> the perpetrator was more likely to be a friend or acquaintance rather
> than close intimate friend.
> 
> --THERE WAS NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RACES, WHITE WOMEN ARE
> NO MORE LIKELY TO BE THE VICTIM OF VIOLENCE THAN NON-WHITE WOMEN AND
> THE CONVERSE WAS TRUE AS WELL.

>From  "Female Victims of Violent Crime," (NCJ-126826); p.4:

=============================================================================

Women, regardless of race or ethnicity experianced lower rates of violent
crime than men.

                                 Average annual rate of violent
                                 victimization per 1,000
                                 ------------------------------
                                 Women               Men

  Total                           25.8               45.1
White                             24.6               44.0
Black                             35.3               54.3
Other                             21.3               43.1

=============================================================================

> 
> --WOMEN ASSAULTED BY AN INTIMATE (spouse, ex-spouse, boyfriend or
> ex-boyfriend) WERE MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED THAN WOMEN ASSAULTED BY A
> STRANGER.

>From  "Violence Against Women," (NCJ-145325); p.6:

=============================================================================

Table 9. Average annual rate and number of single-offender violent
victimizations of women and men, by victim-offender relationship, 1987-91

                                              Sex of victim
Victim-offender relationship               -------------------
                                           Female         Male
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Average annual rate per 1,000
  Intimate                                   5.4           .5
  Other relative                             1.1           .7
  Acquaintance                               7.6         13.0
  Stranger                                   5.4         12.2

Average annual number of victimizations
  Intimate                                   572,032      48,983
  Other relative                             117,201      75,587
  Acquaintance                               796,067   1,268,506
  Stranger                                   571,114   1,182,307

=============================================================================

> 
> I am continuing my search to find anything that breaks down statistics
> by race between perpetrators and victims, but as of yet I have found
> none.

>From  "Violence Against Women," (NCJ-145325); p.6:

=============================================================================

Table 8. Race of female victims of a single violent offender,
by the type of crime and perceived race of offender, 1987-91

                      Percent of single-offender violent victimizations
                      --------------------------------------------------
                                Percieved race of offender
                                --------------------------

Type of crime and                                       Not known or
race of victim          Total   White   Black   Other   ascertained
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crimes of Violwnce

  White                   100%     80%     13%     5%     2%
  Black                   100       4      89      6      1*

Rape
  White                   100      78      15      4      3
  Black                   100       1*     98      0*     5*
  
Robbery
  White                   100      40      43     12      5
  Black                   100       5      88      5      2
  
Aggravated assualt
  White                   100      83       8      7      1*
  Black                   100      12      83      5      1*
  
Simple assualt
  White                   100      87       5      6      1*
  Black                   100       5      89      5      1*
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detail may not add too 100% because of rounding.
*Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases. 

=============================================================================

>From  "Female Victims of Violent Crime," (NCJ-126826); p.10:

=============================================================================

Table 21. Race of offenders, by race of female victims of rape, 1973-87

                                    Race  of female victim
                            -------------------------------------
Race of offender            Total           White           Black     
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Single offender

  Total                     100%            100%            100%

White                        60              73               9
Black                        32              20              84
Other                         5               5               3*

  Number of rapes         1,927,200       1,514,800        368,100


Multiple offenders

  Total                     100%            100%            100%

White                        41              49              13*
Black                        38              29              72
Other                         6               6               4*
Mixed                        13              14               8*

  Number of rapes          365,200         287,400         73,500

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Total number of victims includes persons of other races. Detail may
not add to total because of rounding and omission of "don't know" and "not
ascertained" catagories.
*Too few cases to obtain a statistically reliable estimate.

=============================================================================

The revelating thing about Mr. Griswold's apparant fixation on
inter-racial rape is that he ignores the implications of rape in general.
Namely, that rape is generally an intra-racial violent crime committed by
somebody the victim knew.  

I fail to see how Mr. Griswold's can claim white "superiority" by citing
rape statistics when the significant majority of rapes in the U.S. are
perptrated by white males on white females that they most likely knew or
were intimate with. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 13 11:33:01 PDT 1996
Article: 25219 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!miwok!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Statistics, statistics, anybody got statistics?
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:33:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 388
Message-ID: 
References: <4s4at7$es2@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31e6705c.0@news.nethawk.com>
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In article <31e6705c.0@news.nethawk.com>, 1163@nethawk.com (Richard
Harrold) wrote:

> bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
> 
> >I posted, some time ago, some stats from the FBI Unified Crime Report that
> >stated that, in a given year, 9,405 negroes raped White women, while only
> >TEN white men raped negresses in the same year (I think it was 1992).

Note: Some time ago Mr.Griswold stated, at one point, that ZERO blacks
were raped by whites. When asked for his source, Mr.Griswold did not
intially supply any. Then when he cited the FBI as the source, it was also
pointed out to him that the FBI DOES NOT track rape statistics and that
was done by the BJS. 

> >(Source:  Jared Taylor's _Paved With Good Intentions_, figures repeated on
> >an ADV radio broadcast).  Charles R.L. Power came rushing to the defense of
> >his noble dusky brothers by posting the "true and correct" figures, which 
> >showed some 3,000+ black-on-white rapes, and 2,000+ white-on-black rapes.  
> >THAT was a real kick in the pants for me, right?  Wrong!
> 
> >See, negroes are only 1/6th as numerous as whites (in the U.S. of A.). 
> >Therefore, one would expect that they would only commit 1/6th the amount of 
> >crime that whites do, right? But they don't!  The liberal position (i.e., 
> >negroes are the equal, in every way, of whites) takes a big header into the
> >dumpster of Reality!  And the beautiful thing is, they did it to themselves, 
> >and the REALLY beautiful thing is, they're too dumb to realize it!
> 

According to "Black Victims" (NCJ-122562):

"Blacks had higher robbery rates than whites for both males and females.
Robbery rates per 1,000 persons were 18 robberies for black males, 7 for
white males, 9 for black females, and 4 for white females. Robbery rates
were higher for blacks than for whites for all age and marital status
catagories and nearly all levels of family income. Robbery rates for
blacks and whites with family incomes of $50,000 or more did not differ.
(Ibid. p.1.)

"In central cities, blacks had higher robbery and household burglary rates
than whites regardless of the age or family income of the victim or
household head. In the suberbs and nonmetropolitan areas, blacks had
higher rates than whites for these crimes but there were fewer measurable
differences when age, family income, and home ownership were taken into
account. (Ibid.)

"...NCS data have consistantly shown that certain population groups,
especially males, the poor younger persons, and central-city residents,
have higher victimization rates than others. Blacks in the United States
are more likely than whites to be in some of these groups associated with
a higher rate of victimization. From 1979 to 1986, 56% of blacks and 24%
of whites lived in central cities.... Blacks also tend to have lower
familiy incomes than whites. The percentage of those with family incomes
below $7,500 was 32% for blacks and 13% for whites. (Ibid. p.3.)

Workers as a Proportion of All Poor Persons for 1986 (Numbers in thousands)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor persons 16 years and over
---------------------------------------------
                           Worked year-round
              Worked           full-time
Total    ------------------ -----------------
         Number   Percent   Number   Percent
------------------------------------------------------------
20,688   8,743     42.3     2,007      9.7

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov18.prn


Poverty of Persons by Residence for 1986 (Numbers in Thousands)
________________________________________________________________________
   Metropolitan      Central City    Not Central City  Non-Metropolitan
------------------ ----------------- ----------------- -----------------
  Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 22,657   2.3      13,295   18.0      9,362   8.4       9,712   18.1

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov8.prn


Distribution of the Poor by Race for 1986 (Numbers in Thousands)

     White             Black    
-----------------   -----------------
 Number  Percent     Number  Percent  
-------------------------------------

 22,183    68.5      8,983     27.8 

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov14.prn


What the above appears indicate is that blacks are by no means "the equal
in every way of whites." Blacks, in porportion to their percentage of the
overall population, are poorer, and thus more prone to live in central
cities. Given that the crime rates for Metropolitan areas (e.g. the
central city) are the hishest, the causual relationship between being
poor, living in a Metropolitan area, and higher crime- and victimization
rates- for blacks is somewhat compelling. This is further reinforced by
the evidence that blacks who enjoy a high level of annual income
($50,000), or a comparible quality of life, have comparable victimization
rates to whites.

Considering this, the only thing taking "a big header into the dumpster of
Reality" appears to be Mr.Griswold's ability to understand the use (and
mis-use) od statistics. And the beautiful thing is, he did it to himself.
And the REALLY beautiful thing is he's too dumb to realize it!

> Hey Griswold, name the document, because I have access to the complete
> Univorm Crime Statistics and I'm subscribed to the Bureau of Justice
> Statistics and NO WHERE IS THAT INFORMATION TO BE FOUND!
> 
> So why don't you cite the actual document and page number so I can
> find it if in fact I am in error. but as far as I can tell, YOUR
> DOCUMENT DOES NOT EXIST!
> 
> What is true is WOMEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MURDERED BY THEIR
> HUSBANDS, BOYFRIENDS OR EX-BOYFRIENDS THAN BY A STRANGER!
> 
> Women are MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED DURING AN ASSAULT BY SOMEONE THEY
> KNOW THAN BY A STRANGER!
> 
> And the UCR shows overwhelmingly THAT CRIME VICTIMS ARE MOST OFTEN
> ASSAULTED BY A PERPETRATOR OF THE SAME RACE!

>From  "Black Victims," (NCJ-122562); p.9:

=============================================================================

Table 16. Race of victim, by race and number of offenders, 1979-86

Number of offenders by    Crimes of                  Aggravated  Simple
victim/offender race      violence   Rape   Robbery  assault     assualt
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Single-offender
victimizations

  Total                     100%     100%    100%      100%       100% 

    White victims           
      White offenders        69       63      44        67         76
      Black offenders        15       15      31        13         12
      Other race offenders    3        5       4         3          3

    Black victims           
      White offenders         2        2*      2         2          1
      Black offenders        11       16      19        15          8
      Other race offenders   --       --*      1        --         --


Multiple-offender
victimizations

  Total                     100%     100%    100%      100%       100% 

    White victims           
      White offenders        53       39      28        61         66
      Black offenders        21       22      34        14         14
      Other race offenders    4        5*      4         4          3
      Mixed racial groups     6       12       7         6          6

    Black victims           
      White offenders         2        4*      2         2          2
      Black offenders        13       16      22        11          8
      Other race offenders    1        1*      1        11          8
     Mixed racial groups      1        1*      2         1          1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Percentages may not total 100% because of rounding. Excludes crimes
where the number of offenders was not known or not ascertained. *Estimate
is based on 10 or fewer sample cases; see _Methodology_. -- Less than 0.5
%

=============================================================================


>From  "Black Victims," (NCJ-122562); p.9:

=============================================================================

Table 17. Victim-offender relationship In violent crimes, 1979-86

                              Type of crime and race of victim
                  ---------------------------------------------------------
Type of crime       Crimes of                   Aggravated       Simple
     and            violence*      Robbery      assault          assault
race of victim    ------------   ------------   ------------   ------------ 
                  White  Black   White  Black   White  Black   White  Black
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Total           100%   100%    100%   100%    100%   100%    100%   100%

Stranger           58     54      75     75      60     46      52     42
Non-Stranger       38     42      21     20      34     48      44     54
Don't know/         4      5       4      5       6      6       3      3
not ascertained

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Percentages may not total 100% because of rounding.
Multiple-offender victimizations are classified by the most intimate
relationship between the victim and one of the offenders. *include data on
rape, not shown seperately.

=============================================================================

> 
> Consider this document titled "Violence Against Women: Estimates from
> the redesigned National Crime Victimization Survey." THis is what the
> document DOES SAY about women and the crimes committed against them:
> 
> --Out of 500,000 rapes and other assaults (excluding murder) reported
> in 1992-93, only 1 in 5 were reportedly committed by a perpertrator
> the victim did not know, that is, a stranger.
> 
> --Women were about six times more likely than men to experience
> violence at the hands of a spouse, ex-spouse, or intimate friend.
> 
> --More than half of all the assaults and rapes reported were committed
> by persons the victim intimately knew. When considering only rapes,
> the perpetrator was more likely to be a friend or acquaintance rather
> than close intimate friend.
> 
> --THERE WAS NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RACES, WHITE WOMEN ARE
> NO MORE LIKELY TO BE THE VICTIM OF VIOLENCE THAN NON-WHITE WOMEN AND
> THE CONVERSE WAS TRUE AS WELL.

>From  "Female Victims of Violent Crime," (NCJ-126826); p.4:

=============================================================================

Women, regardless of race or ethnicity experianced lower rates of violent
crime than men.

                                 Average annual rate of violent
                                 victimization per 1,000
                                 ------------------------------
                                 Women               Men

  Total                           25.8               45.1
White                             24.6               44.0
Black                             35.3               54.3
Other                             21.3               43.1

=============================================================================

> 
> --WOMEN ASSAULTED BY AN INTIMATE (spouse, ex-spouse, boyfriend or
> ex-boyfriend) WERE MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED THAN WOMEN ASSAULTED BY A
> STRANGER.

>From  "Violence Against Women," (NCJ-145325); p.6:

=============================================================================

Table 9. Average annual rate and number of single-offender violent
victimizations of women and men, by victim-offender relationship, 1987-91

                                              Sex of victim
Victim-offender relationship               -------------------
                                           Female         Male
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Average annual rate per 1,000
  Intimate                                   5.4           .5
  Other relative                             1.1           .7
  Acquaintance                               7.6         13.0
  Stranger                                   5.4         12.2

Average annual number of victimizations
  Intimate                                   572,032      48,983
  Other relative                             117,201      75,587
  Acquaintance                               796,067   1,268,506
  Stranger                                   571,114   1,182,307

=============================================================================

> 
> I am continuing my search to find anything that breaks down statistics
> by race between perpetrators and victims, but as of yet I have found
> none.

>From  "Violence Against Women," (NCJ-145325); p.6:

=============================================================================

Table 8. Race of female victims of a single violent offender,
by the type of crime and perceived race of offender, 1987-91

                      Percent of single-offender violent victimizations
                      --------------------------------------------------
                                Percieved race of offender
                                --------------------------

Type of crime and                                       Not known or
race of victim          Total   White   Black   Other   ascertained
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crimes of Violwnce

  White                   100%     80%     13%     5%     2%
  Black                   100       4      89      6      1*

Rape
  White                   100      78      15      4      3
  Black                   100       1*     98      0*     5*
  
Robbery
  White                   100      40      43     12      5
  Black                   100       5      88      5      2
  
Aggravated assualt
  White                   100      83       8      7      1*
  Black                   100      12      83      5      1*
  
Simple assualt
  White                   100      87       5      6      1*
  Black                   100       5      89      5      1*
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detail may not add too 100% because of rounding.
*Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases. 

=============================================================================

>From  "Female Victims of Violent Crime," (NCJ-126826); p.10:

=============================================================================

Table 21. Race of offenders, by race of female victims of rape, 1973-87

                                    Race  of female victim
                            -------------------------------------
Race of offender            Total           White           Black     
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Single offender

  Total                     100%            100%            100%

White                        60              73               9
Black                        32              20              84
Other                         5               5               3*

  Number of rapes         1,927,200       1,514,800        368,100


Multiple offenders

  Total                     100%            100%            100%

White                        41              49              13*
Black                        38              29              72
Other                         6               6               4*
Mixed                        13              14               8*

  Number of rapes          365,200         287,400         73,500

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Total number of victims includes persons of other races. Detail may
not add to total because of rounding and omission of "don't know" and "not
ascertained" catagories.
*Too few cases to obtain a statistically reliable estimate.

=============================================================================

The revelating thing about Mr. Griswold's apparant fixation on
inter-racial rape is that he ignores the implications of rape in general.
Namely, that rape is generally an intra-racial violent crime committed by
somebody the victim knew.  

I fail to see how Mr. Griswold's can claim white "superiority" by citing
rape statistics when the significant majority of rapes in the U.S. are
perptrated by white males on white females that they most likely knew or
were intimate with. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 13 13:56:19 PDT 1996
Article: 35965 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!miwok!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Statistics, statistics, anybody got statistics?
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:33:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 388
Message-ID: 
References: <4s4at7$es2@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31e6705c.0@news.nethawk.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:35965 alt.politics.nationalism.white:25219 alt.discrimination:50253 alt.revisionism:49969

In article <31e6705c.0@news.nethawk.com>, 1163@nethawk.com (Richard
Harrold) wrote:

> bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
> 
> >I posted, some time ago, some stats from the FBI Unified Crime Report that
> >stated that, in a given year, 9,405 negroes raped White women, while only
> >TEN white men raped negresses in the same year (I think it was 1992).

Note: Some time ago Mr.Griswold stated, at one point, that ZERO blacks
were raped by whites. When asked for his source, Mr.Griswold did not
intially supply any. Then when he cited the FBI as the source, it was also
pointed out to him that the FBI DOES NOT track rape statistics and that
was done by the BJS. 

> >(Source:  Jared Taylor's _Paved With Good Intentions_, figures repeated on
> >an ADV radio broadcast).  Charles R.L. Power came rushing to the defense of
> >his noble dusky brothers by posting the "true and correct" figures, which 
> >showed some 3,000+ black-on-white rapes, and 2,000+ white-on-black rapes.  
> >THAT was a real kick in the pants for me, right?  Wrong!
> 
> >See, negroes are only 1/6th as numerous as whites (in the U.S. of A.). 
> >Therefore, one would expect that they would only commit 1/6th the amount of 
> >crime that whites do, right? But they don't!  The liberal position (i.e., 
> >negroes are the equal, in every way, of whites) takes a big header into the
> >dumpster of Reality!  And the beautiful thing is, they did it to themselves, 
> >and the REALLY beautiful thing is, they're too dumb to realize it!
> 

According to "Black Victims" (NCJ-122562):

"Blacks had higher robbery rates than whites for both males and females.
Robbery rates per 1,000 persons were 18 robberies for black males, 7 for
white males, 9 for black females, and 4 for white females. Robbery rates
were higher for blacks than for whites for all age and marital status
catagories and nearly all levels of family income. Robbery rates for
blacks and whites with family incomes of $50,000 or more did not differ.
(Ibid. p.1.)

"In central cities, blacks had higher robbery and household burglary rates
than whites regardless of the age or family income of the victim or
household head. In the suberbs and nonmetropolitan areas, blacks had
higher rates than whites for these crimes but there were fewer measurable
differences when age, family income, and home ownership were taken into
account. (Ibid.)

"...NCS data have consistantly shown that certain population groups,
especially males, the poor younger persons, and central-city residents,
have higher victimization rates than others. Blacks in the United States
are more likely than whites to be in some of these groups associated with
a higher rate of victimization. From 1979 to 1986, 56% of blacks and 24%
of whites lived in central cities.... Blacks also tend to have lower
familiy incomes than whites. The percentage of those with family incomes
below $7,500 was 32% for blacks and 13% for whites. (Ibid. p.3.)

Workers as a Proportion of All Poor Persons for 1986 (Numbers in thousands)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor persons 16 years and over
---------------------------------------------
                           Worked year-round
              Worked           full-time
Total    ------------------ -----------------
         Number   Percent   Number   Percent
------------------------------------------------------------
20,688   8,743     42.3     2,007      9.7

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov18.prn


Poverty of Persons by Residence for 1986 (Numbers in Thousands)
________________________________________________________________________
   Metropolitan      Central City    Not Central City  Non-Metropolitan
------------------ ----------------- ----------------- -----------------
  Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 22,657   2.3      13,295   18.0      9,362   8.4       9,712   18.1

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov8.prn


Distribution of the Poor by Race for 1986 (Numbers in Thousands)

     White             Black    
-----------------   -----------------
 Number  Percent     Number  Percent  
-------------------------------------

 22,183    68.5      8,983     27.8 

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov14.prn


What the above appears indicate is that blacks are by no means "the equal
in every way of whites." Blacks, in porportion to their percentage of the
overall population, are poorer, and thus more prone to live in central
cities. Given that the crime rates for Metropolitan areas (e.g. the
central city) are the hishest, the causual relationship between being
poor, living in a Metropolitan area, and higher crime- and victimization
rates- for blacks is somewhat compelling. This is further reinforced by
the evidence that blacks who enjoy a high level of annual income
($50,000), or a comparible quality of life, have comparable victimization
rates to whites.

Considering this, the only thing taking "a big header into the dumpster of
Reality" appears to be Mr.Griswold's ability to understand the use (and
mis-use) od statistics. And the beautiful thing is, he did it to himself.
And the REALLY beautiful thing is he's too dumb to realize it!

> Hey Griswold, name the document, because I have access to the complete
> Univorm Crime Statistics and I'm subscribed to the Bureau of Justice
> Statistics and NO WHERE IS THAT INFORMATION TO BE FOUND!
> 
> So why don't you cite the actual document and page number so I can
> find it if in fact I am in error. but as far as I can tell, YOUR
> DOCUMENT DOES NOT EXIST!
> 
> What is true is WOMEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MURDERED BY THEIR
> HUSBANDS, BOYFRIENDS OR EX-BOYFRIENDS THAN BY A STRANGER!
> 
> Women are MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED DURING AN ASSAULT BY SOMEONE THEY
> KNOW THAN BY A STRANGER!
> 
> And the UCR shows overwhelmingly THAT CRIME VICTIMS ARE MOST OFTEN
> ASSAULTED BY A PERPETRATOR OF THE SAME RACE!

>From  "Black Victims," (NCJ-122562); p.9:

=============================================================================

Table 16. Race of victim, by race and number of offenders, 1979-86

Number of offenders by    Crimes of                  Aggravated  Simple
victim/offender race      violence   Rape   Robbery  assault     assualt
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Single-offender
victimizations

  Total                     100%     100%    100%      100%       100% 

    White victims           
      White offenders        69       63      44        67         76
      Black offenders        15       15      31        13         12
      Other race offenders    3        5       4         3          3

    Black victims           
      White offenders         2        2*      2         2          1
      Black offenders        11       16      19        15          8
      Other race offenders   --       --*      1        --         --


Multiple-offender
victimizations

  Total                     100%     100%    100%      100%       100% 

    White victims           
      White offenders        53       39      28        61         66
      Black offenders        21       22      34        14         14
      Other race offenders    4        5*      4         4          3
      Mixed racial groups     6       12       7         6          6

    Black victims           
      White offenders         2        4*      2         2          2
      Black offenders        13       16      22        11          8
      Other race offenders    1        1*      1        11          8
     Mixed racial groups      1        1*      2         1          1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Percentages may not total 100% because of rounding. Excludes crimes
where the number of offenders was not known or not ascertained. *Estimate
is based on 10 or fewer sample cases; see _Methodology_. -- Less than 0.5
%

=============================================================================


>From  "Black Victims," (NCJ-122562); p.9:

=============================================================================

Table 17. Victim-offender relationship In violent crimes, 1979-86

                              Type of crime and race of victim
                  ---------------------------------------------------------
Type of crime       Crimes of                   Aggravated       Simple
     and            violence*      Robbery      assault          assault
race of victim    ------------   ------------   ------------   ------------ 
                  White  Black   White  Black   White  Black   White  Black
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Total           100%   100%    100%   100%    100%   100%    100%   100%

Stranger           58     54      75     75      60     46      52     42
Non-Stranger       38     42      21     20      34     48      44     54
Don't know/         4      5       4      5       6      6       3      3
not ascertained

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Percentages may not total 100% because of rounding.
Multiple-offender victimizations are classified by the most intimate
relationship between the victim and one of the offenders. *include data on
rape, not shown seperately.

=============================================================================

> 
> Consider this document titled "Violence Against Women: Estimates from
> the redesigned National Crime Victimization Survey." THis is what the
> document DOES SAY about women and the crimes committed against them:
> 
> --Out of 500,000 rapes and other assaults (excluding murder) reported
> in 1992-93, only 1 in 5 were reportedly committed by a perpertrator
> the victim did not know, that is, a stranger.
> 
> --Women were about six times more likely than men to experience
> violence at the hands of a spouse, ex-spouse, or intimate friend.
> 
> --More than half of all the assaults and rapes reported were committed
> by persons the victim intimately knew. When considering only rapes,
> the perpetrator was more likely to be a friend or acquaintance rather
> than close intimate friend.
> 
> --THERE WAS NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RACES, WHITE WOMEN ARE
> NO MORE LIKELY TO BE THE VICTIM OF VIOLENCE THAN NON-WHITE WOMEN AND
> THE CONVERSE WAS TRUE AS WELL.

>From  "Female Victims of Violent Crime," (NCJ-126826); p.4:

=============================================================================

Women, regardless of race or ethnicity experianced lower rates of violent
crime than men.

                                 Average annual rate of violent
                                 victimization per 1,000
                                 ------------------------------
                                 Women               Men

  Total                           25.8               45.1
White                             24.6               44.0
Black                             35.3               54.3
Other                             21.3               43.1

=============================================================================

> 
> --WOMEN ASSAULTED BY AN INTIMATE (spouse, ex-spouse, boyfriend or
> ex-boyfriend) WERE MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED THAN WOMEN ASSAULTED BY A
> STRANGER.

>From  "Violence Against Women," (NCJ-145325); p.6:

=============================================================================

Table 9. Average annual rate and number of single-offender violent
victimizations of women and men, by victim-offender relationship, 1987-91

                                              Sex of victim
Victim-offender relationship               -------------------
                                           Female         Male
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Average annual rate per 1,000
  Intimate                                   5.4           .5
  Other relative                             1.1           .7
  Acquaintance                               7.6         13.0
  Stranger                                   5.4         12.2

Average annual number of victimizations
  Intimate                                   572,032      48,983
  Other relative                             117,201      75,587
  Acquaintance                               796,067   1,268,506
  Stranger                                   571,114   1,182,307

=============================================================================

> 
> I am continuing my search to find anything that breaks down statistics
> by race between perpetrators and victims, but as of yet I have found
> none.

>From  "Violence Against Women," (NCJ-145325); p.6:

=============================================================================

Table 8. Race of female victims of a single violent offender,
by the type of crime and perceived race of offender, 1987-91

                      Percent of single-offender violent victimizations
                      --------------------------------------------------
                                Percieved race of offender
                                --------------------------

Type of crime and                                       Not known or
race of victim          Total   White   Black   Other   ascertained
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crimes of Violwnce

  White                   100%     80%     13%     5%     2%
  Black                   100       4      89      6      1*

Rape
  White                   100      78      15      4      3
  Black                   100       1*     98      0*     5*
  
Robbery
  White                   100      40      43     12      5
  Black                   100       5      88      5      2
  
Aggravated assualt
  White                   100      83       8      7      1*
  Black                   100      12      83      5      1*
  
Simple assualt
  White                   100      87       5      6      1*
  Black                   100       5      89      5      1*
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detail may not add too 100% because of rounding.
*Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases. 

=============================================================================

>From  "Female Victims of Violent Crime," (NCJ-126826); p.10:

=============================================================================

Table 21. Race of offenders, by race of female victims of rape, 1973-87

                                    Race  of female victim
                            -------------------------------------
Race of offender            Total           White           Black     
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Single offender

  Total                     100%            100%            100%

White                        60              73               9
Black                        32              20              84
Other                         5               5               3*

  Number of rapes         1,927,200       1,514,800        368,100


Multiple offenders

  Total                     100%            100%            100%

White                        41              49              13*
Black                        38              29              72
Other                         6               6               4*
Mixed                        13              14               8*

  Number of rapes          365,200         287,400         73,500

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Total number of victims includes persons of other races. Detail may
not add to total because of rounding and omission of "don't know" and "not
ascertained" catagories.
*Too few cases to obtain a statistically reliable estimate.

=============================================================================

The revelating thing about Mr. Griswold's apparant fixation on
inter-racial rape is that he ignores the implications of rape in general.
Namely, that rape is generally an intra-racial violent crime committed by
somebody the victim knew.  

I fail to see how Mr. Griswold's can claim white "superiority" by citing
rape statistics when the significant majority of rapes in the U.S. are
perptrated by white males on white females that they most likely knew or
were intimate with. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:02 PDT 1996
Article: 50102 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.exodus.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:44:36 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
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References: <4rm7pm$ot@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rnnle$g8o@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <31E11046.3FA2@gryn.org> <4s312m$3ks@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <11JUL199611095506@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <11JUL199611095506@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

> In article <4s312m$3ks@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) writes...
> >Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
> > 
> >: This is ridiculous.  I never realized Alec would wipe the floor with Giwer
> >: so effortlessly.
> > 
> >I didn't think he could do it either, even after he told me by email
> >how he was going to do it.  It looks easy, doesn't it, once you know
> >the  trick?
> 
>     I've tuned out Giwer so I missed this.  Could you or Gord fill me in
>     via email as to what happened?  Or at least give me the pointers so I
>     can find it on DejaNews.
> 
>     danny

Ditto, Gord. I'd be much obliged. ;-)

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 14 12:13:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50253 of alt.discrimination
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Statistics, statistics, anybody got statistics?
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:33:06 -0700
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In article <31e6705c.0@news.nethawk.com>, 1163@nethawk.com (Richard
Harrold) wrote:

> bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
> 
> >I posted, some time ago, some stats from the FBI Unified Crime Report that
> >stated that, in a given year, 9,405 negroes raped White women, while only
> >TEN white men raped negresses in the same year (I think it was 1992).

Note: Some time ago Mr.Griswold stated, at one point, that ZERO blacks
were raped by whites. When asked for his source, Mr.Griswold did not
intially supply any. Then when he cited the FBI as the source, it was also
pointed out to him that the FBI DOES NOT track rape statistics and that
was done by the BJS. 

> >(Source:  Jared Taylor's _Paved With Good Intentions_, figures repeated on
> >an ADV radio broadcast).  Charles R.L. Power came rushing to the defense of
> >his noble dusky brothers by posting the "true and correct" figures, which 
> >showed some 3,000+ black-on-white rapes, and 2,000+ white-on-black rapes.  
> >THAT was a real kick in the pants for me, right?  Wrong!
> 
> >See, negroes are only 1/6th as numerous as whites (in the U.S. of A.). 
> >Therefore, one would expect that they would only commit 1/6th the amount of 
> >crime that whites do, right? But they don't!  The liberal position (i.e., 
> >negroes are the equal, in every way, of whites) takes a big header into the
> >dumpster of Reality!  And the beautiful thing is, they did it to themselves, 
> >and the REALLY beautiful thing is, they're too dumb to realize it!
> 

According to "Black Victims" (NCJ-122562):

"Blacks had higher robbery rates than whites for both males and females.
Robbery rates per 1,000 persons were 18 robberies for black males, 7 for
white males, 9 for black females, and 4 for white females. Robbery rates
were higher for blacks than for whites for all age and marital status
catagories and nearly all levels of family income. Robbery rates for
blacks and whites with family incomes of $50,000 or more did not differ.
(Ibid. p.1.)

"In central cities, blacks had higher robbery and household burglary rates
than whites regardless of the age or family income of the victim or
household head. In the suberbs and nonmetropolitan areas, blacks had
higher rates than whites for these crimes but there were fewer measurable
differences when age, family income, and home ownership were taken into
account. (Ibid.)

"...NCS data have consistantly shown that certain population groups,
especially males, the poor younger persons, and central-city residents,
have higher victimization rates than others. Blacks in the United States
are more likely than whites to be in some of these groups associated with
a higher rate of victimization. From 1979 to 1986, 56% of blacks and 24%
of whites lived in central cities.... Blacks also tend to have lower
familiy incomes than whites. The percentage of those with family incomes
below $7,500 was 32% for blacks and 13% for whites. (Ibid. p.3.)

Workers as a Proportion of All Poor Persons for 1986 (Numbers in thousands)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor persons 16 years and over
---------------------------------------------
                           Worked year-round
              Worked           full-time
Total    ------------------ -----------------
         Number   Percent   Number   Percent
------------------------------------------------------------
20,688   8,743     42.3     2,007      9.7

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov18.prn


Poverty of Persons by Residence for 1986 (Numbers in Thousands)
________________________________________________________________________
   Metropolitan      Central City    Not Central City  Non-Metropolitan
------------------ ----------------- ----------------- -----------------
  Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent     Poor  Percent
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 22,657   2.3      13,295   18.0      9,362   8.4       9,712   18.1

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov8.prn


Distribution of the Poor by Race for 1986 (Numbers in Thousands)

     White             Black    
-----------------   -----------------
 Number  Percent     Number  Percent  
-------------------------------------

 22,183    68.5      8,983     27.8 

Source: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov14.prn


What the above appears indicate is that blacks are by no means "the equal
in every way of whites." Blacks, in porportion to their percentage of the
overall population, are poorer, and thus more prone to live in central
cities. Given that the crime rates for Metropolitan areas (e.g. the
central city) are the hishest, the causual relationship between being
poor, living in a Metropolitan area, and higher crime- and victimization
rates- for blacks is somewhat compelling. This is further reinforced by
the evidence that blacks who enjoy a high level of annual income
($50,000), or a comparible quality of life, have comparable victimization
rates to whites.

Considering this, the only thing taking "a big header into the dumpster of
Reality" appears to be Mr.Griswold's ability to understand the use (and
mis-use) od statistics. And the beautiful thing is, he did it to himself.
And the REALLY beautiful thing is he's too dumb to realize it!

> Hey Griswold, name the document, because I have access to the complete
> Univorm Crime Statistics and I'm subscribed to the Bureau of Justice
> Statistics and NO WHERE IS THAT INFORMATION TO BE FOUND!
> 
> So why don't you cite the actual document and page number so I can
> find it if in fact I am in error. but as far as I can tell, YOUR
> DOCUMENT DOES NOT EXIST!
> 
> What is true is WOMEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MURDERED BY THEIR
> HUSBANDS, BOYFRIENDS OR EX-BOYFRIENDS THAN BY A STRANGER!
> 
> Women are MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED DURING AN ASSAULT BY SOMEONE THEY
> KNOW THAN BY A STRANGER!
> 
> And the UCR shows overwhelmingly THAT CRIME VICTIMS ARE MOST OFTEN
> ASSAULTED BY A PERPETRATOR OF THE SAME RACE!

>From  "Black Victims," (NCJ-122562); p.9:

=============================================================================

Table 16. Race of victim, by race and number of offenders, 1979-86

Number of offenders by    Crimes of                  Aggravated  Simple
victim/offender race      violence   Rape   Robbery  assault     assualt
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Single-offender
victimizations

  Total                     100%     100%    100%      100%       100% 

    White victims           
      White offenders        69       63      44        67         76
      Black offenders        15       15      31        13         12
      Other race offenders    3        5       4         3          3

    Black victims           
      White offenders         2        2*      2         2          1
      Black offenders        11       16      19        15          8
      Other race offenders   --       --*      1        --         --


Multiple-offender
victimizations

  Total                     100%     100%    100%      100%       100% 

    White victims           
      White offenders        53       39      28        61         66
      Black offenders        21       22      34        14         14
      Other race offenders    4        5*      4         4          3
      Mixed racial groups     6       12       7         6          6

    Black victims           
      White offenders         2        4*      2         2          2
      Black offenders        13       16      22        11          8
      Other race offenders    1        1*      1        11          8
     Mixed racial groups      1        1*      2         1          1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Percentages may not total 100% because of rounding. Excludes crimes
where the number of offenders was not known or not ascertained. *Estimate
is based on 10 or fewer sample cases; see _Methodology_. -- Less than 0.5
%

=============================================================================


>From  "Black Victims," (NCJ-122562); p.9:

=============================================================================

Table 17. Victim-offender relationship In violent crimes, 1979-86

                              Type of crime and race of victim
                  ---------------------------------------------------------
Type of crime       Crimes of                   Aggravated       Simple
     and            violence*      Robbery      assault          assault
race of victim    ------------   ------------   ------------   ------------ 
                  White  Black   White  Black   White  Black   White  Black
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Total           100%   100%    100%   100%    100%   100%    100%   100%

Stranger           58     54      75     75      60     46      52     42
Non-Stranger       38     42      21     20      34     48      44     54
Don't know/         4      5       4      5       6      6       3      3
not ascertained

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Percentages may not total 100% because of rounding.
Multiple-offender victimizations are classified by the most intimate
relationship between the victim and one of the offenders. *include data on
rape, not shown seperately.

=============================================================================

> 
> Consider this document titled "Violence Against Women: Estimates from
> the redesigned National Crime Victimization Survey." THis is what the
> document DOES SAY about women and the crimes committed against them:
> 
> --Out of 500,000 rapes and other assaults (excluding murder) reported
> in 1992-93, only 1 in 5 were reportedly committed by a perpertrator
> the victim did not know, that is, a stranger.
> 
> --Women were about six times more likely than men to experience
> violence at the hands of a spouse, ex-spouse, or intimate friend.
> 
> --More than half of all the assaults and rapes reported were committed
> by persons the victim intimately knew. When considering only rapes,
> the perpetrator was more likely to be a friend or acquaintance rather
> than close intimate friend.
> 
> --THERE WAS NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RACES, WHITE WOMEN ARE
> NO MORE LIKELY TO BE THE VICTIM OF VIOLENCE THAN NON-WHITE WOMEN AND
> THE CONVERSE WAS TRUE AS WELL.

>From  "Female Victims of Violent Crime," (NCJ-126826); p.4:

=============================================================================

Women, regardless of race or ethnicity experianced lower rates of violent
crime than men.

                                 Average annual rate of violent
                                 victimization per 1,000
                                 ------------------------------
                                 Women               Men

  Total                           25.8               45.1
White                             24.6               44.0
Black                             35.3               54.3
Other                             21.3               43.1

=============================================================================

> 
> --WOMEN ASSAULTED BY AN INTIMATE (spouse, ex-spouse, boyfriend or
> ex-boyfriend) WERE MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED THAN WOMEN ASSAULTED BY A
> STRANGER.

>From  "Violence Against Women," (NCJ-145325); p.6:

=============================================================================

Table 9. Average annual rate and number of single-offender violent
victimizations of women and men, by victim-offender relationship, 1987-91

                                              Sex of victim
Victim-offender relationship               -------------------
                                           Female         Male
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Average annual rate per 1,000
  Intimate                                   5.4           .5
  Other relative                             1.1           .7
  Acquaintance                               7.6         13.0
  Stranger                                   5.4         12.2

Average annual number of victimizations
  Intimate                                   572,032      48,983
  Other relative                             117,201      75,587
  Acquaintance                               796,067   1,268,506
  Stranger                                   571,114   1,182,307

=============================================================================

> 
> I am continuing my search to find anything that breaks down statistics
> by race between perpetrators and victims, but as of yet I have found
> none.

>From  "Violence Against Women," (NCJ-145325); p.6:

=============================================================================

Table 8. Race of female victims of a single violent offender,
by the type of crime and perceived race of offender, 1987-91

                      Percent of single-offender violent victimizations
                      --------------------------------------------------
                                Percieved race of offender
                                --------------------------

Type of crime and                                       Not known or
race of victim          Total   White   Black   Other   ascertained
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crimes of Violwnce

  White                   100%     80%     13%     5%     2%
  Black                   100       4      89      6      1*

Rape
  White                   100      78      15      4      3
  Black                   100       1*     98      0*     5*
  
Robbery
  White                   100      40      43     12      5
  Black                   100       5      88      5      2
  
Aggravated assualt
  White                   100      83       8      7      1*
  Black                   100      12      83      5      1*
  
Simple assualt
  White                   100      87       5      6      1*
  Black                   100       5      89      5      1*
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detail may not add too 100% because of rounding.
*Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases. 

=============================================================================

>From  "Female Victims of Violent Crime," (NCJ-126826); p.10:

=============================================================================

Table 21. Race of offenders, by race of female victims of rape, 1973-87

                                    Race  of female victim
                            -------------------------------------
Race of offender            Total           White           Black     
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Single offender

  Total                     100%            100%            100%

White                        60              73               9
Black                        32              20              84
Other                         5               5               3*

  Number of rapes         1,927,200       1,514,800        368,100


Multiple offenders

  Total                     100%            100%            100%

White                        41              49              13*
Black                        38              29              72
Other                         6               6               4*
Mixed                        13              14               8*

  Number of rapes          365,200         287,400         73,500

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Total number of victims includes persons of other races. Detail may
not add to total because of rounding and omission of "don't know" and "not
ascertained" catagories.
*Too few cases to obtain a statistically reliable estimate.

=============================================================================

The revelating thing about Mr. Griswold's apparant fixation on
inter-racial rape is that he ignores the implications of rape in general.
Namely, that rape is generally an intra-racial violent crime committed by
somebody the victim knew.  

I fail to see how Mr. Griswold's can claim white "superiority" by citing
rape statistics when the significant majority of rapes in the U.S. are
perptrated by white males on white females that they most likely knew or
were intimate with. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 15 19:31:51 PDT 1996
Article: 50470 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:40:12 -0700
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In article <31e6644d.8762624@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

Yet again, Moran graces us for the umpteenth time, in true denier fashion,
with another repost exampling his duplicity in selective quoting and the
intentional distortion of what was actually written to mislead the unwary:

>                          [repost]
>
> According to Franciszek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz Museum
> in Poland, prisoner and SS eyewitness testimony is unreliable.

Of course, Moran fails to include that Dr. Piper actually stated that
"[because of the difficulty these prisoners had in gaining access to
information and the inevitable distortions that occurred when the data
were analyzed and transmitted, these reports are marred by serious errors,
discrepancies, and contradictions" and that "[d]espite the considerable
accuracy in certain details, the figures quoted by resistance sources must
be considered cautiously because they lacked access to aggregate figures."
(_Anatomy_,p.66,63.) 

What this means is that such testimonies are not to be wholly discarded,
as Moran would have us believe, because they were unreliable; but that the
limitations of such testimonies and estimates, due to the circumstances,
must be "considered cautiously" because, as Dr. Piper also states, such
testimonies had "considerable accuracy in some details." 

> In his "Number of Victims", Chapter 4 in "The Anatomy of the
> Auschwitz Death Camp", he covers the course of events and
> considerations involved in arriving at the revised Auschwitz figures. 
>
> It seems the revisers held little esteem for any eyewitness
> testimony, at least in regard to numbers, be it prisoner or SS
> functionary, discounting it all in favor of deportation records from
> various countries.

Of course, Moran fails to include that Dr. Piper also stated that "...it
is the testimony of Rudolf Ho"ss, Auschwitz's commandant from 1940 through
1943, that draws special attention of scholars. Ho"ss is considered a
credible witness because he also supervised camp affairs for the SS
Economic-Administrative Main Office in 1944. Furthermore, he returned to
Auschwitz briefly to oversee the extermination of Hungarian Jews.... His
most important testimonies were at the Kaltenbrunner trial before the
International Military Tribunal in Nuremburg and later, after he was
extradited to Poland, before the Polish authorities. 

"On April 15, 1946, Ho"ss's certified testimony was read during the
Kaltenbrunner trial. 'According to my calculation,' he stated, 'at least
2.5 million people were put to death, gassed, and subsequently burned
there; in addition, 500,000 people died of exhaustion and illness, which
gives a total of three million victims. That figure constitutes 70 to 80
percent of all Auschwitz prisoners...' Later, in a conversation with
psychiatrists G.M. Gilbert in Nuremburg and in testimonies given in
Poland, Ho"ss repudiated these figures, claiming he had received them from
Adolf Eichmann, who had been head of the SS Office of Jewish Emigration. A
more accurate estimate, he reported, was 1.13 million, based on his
recollection of the extermination of Jews from particular countries. The
figure is almost identical to the number of Jews deported to Auschwitz, as
established by this author..." 

"Since the Ho"ss testimonies, researchers have accepted figures from Ho"ss
that ranged from one to three million--depending on how reliable they
consider his testimonies to be. It is unclear from Ho"ss's Nuremburg
testimony whether the number he gave for those killed in the camp pertains
to the period of time of his tenure as camp commander or the camp's entire
existence. As a result, some scholars add to Ho'ss's figure the number of
victims during 1944, mainly the 438,000 Hungarian Jews deported to
Auschwitz that year." (_Anatomy_,pp.64-65.)

> In respect to the numbers, Piper referring to the deportation
> records states, "Before these records were discovered, researchers had
> to rely on discrepant and impercise data from testimonies and
> depositions from witnesses, former prisoners, and Nazi functionaries
> and on court decisions and fragmentary and incomplete records of camp
> registries, archives, and other institutions".

Of course, Moran fails to include that Dr. Piper also stated that
"[d]espite the accuracy in certain details, the figures quoted by the
resistance sources must be considered cautiously because they lacked
access to aggregate figures. Similar objections may be raised regarding
figures quoted by prisoners not affiliated with any underground
organizations in the camp. Even prisoners employed as scribes in camp
offices had access to a limited number of records. For the most part,
these records pertained to registered prisoners, not to the mass
transports so critical to estimating the number of deportees and victims.
The figures quoted by individual prisoners rely mostly on numbers of
autopsies and on information overheard from SS men or other prisoners. The
most significant fact in the prisoners' reports and communications is that
mass extermination continued incessantly." (_Anatomy_,p.63.) 

> Here Piper even includes "court decisions" as part of that
> which is held in low esteem.

Of course, Moran fails to include that Dr. Piper only specifically
mentions the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission (1945), The Polish
Commission (1945 and 1946), and the Supreme National Polish Tribunal in
Poland (1947) as making definitive conclusions as to the death toll at
Auschwitz. The inaccuracy of the estimates for the number of people
murdered at Auschwitz by these agencies has been well documented and known
by historians for decades. Just as significantly, Dr. Piper stated that
the "International Military Tribunal in Nuremburg did not address the
question of how many persons were killed at Auschwitz."

> He goes on to say the testimonies held "inevitable distortions
> and were "marred by serious errors, discrepancies, and
> contradictions".

Of course, Moran fails to include that Dr. Piper also stated that
"[d]espite the considerable accuracy in certain details, the figures
quoted by resistance sources must be considered cautiously because they
lacked access to aggregate figures." (_Anatomy_,p.66,63.) 

Again, what this means is that such testimonies are not to be wholly
discarded, as Moran would have us believe, because they were unreliable;
but that the limitations of such testimonies and estimates, due to the
circumstances, must be "considered cautiously" because, as Dr. Piper also
states, such testimonies had "considerable accuracy in some details." 

> Among the few examples Piper identifies as perpetrating the
> questionable testimony is the number one star witness for the
> Holocaust story, Rudolph Ho'ss. 

Of course, Moran fails to include that Dr. Piper also stated that
"...Ho"ss is considered a credible witness because he also supervised camp
affairs for the SS Economic-Administrative Main Office in 1944.
Furthermore, he returned to Auschwitz briefly to oversee the extermination
of Hungarian Jews..." and that Ho"ss repudiated his earlier estimate of
those killed at Auschwitz because he "received them from Adolf Eichmann,
who had been head of the SS Office of Jewish Emigration" and then offered
"a more accurate estimate... [of] 1.13 million, based on his recollection
of the extermination of Jews from particular countries." This estimate,
according to Dr. Piper, is "almost identical to the number of Jews
deported to Auschwitz" he established himself.  

> Under a bold heading "Investigating and Prosecuting Agencies and Tribunals" 
> Piper does a quick run down on the erroneous findings of these bodies
and even 
> does similar comment under "Scholarly Publications".

Of course, Moran fails to include that Dr. Piper also stated that these
bodies were the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission (1945), The Polish
Commission (1945 and 1946), and the Supreme National Polish Tribunal in
Poland (1947). The estimates from these bodies have discounted by
historians almost immediately after they were made. 

> Piper comments along the way, "Yet several factors now prompt
> historians to attempt to verify widely used figures, including the
> scientific demand for objectivity in the study of Nazi crimes."

Of course, Moran fails to include that Dr. Piper also stated that "[in]
_The Final Solution_, one of the first books to deal with the Holocaust,
published in 1953, the figure of four million was radically reevaluated.
English historian Gerald Reitlinger estimated the number of victims of
Auschwitz to be roughly 800,000 to 900,000, based on an analysis of the
losses of Jews reported by specific countries as well as by his study of
extermination records. Since then, other estimates lower than the figures
quoted by the Soviet and Polish commissions have been advanced, especially
in Western publications. These estimates have ranged upwards from one
million." (_Anatomy_,p.61.) 

Obviously, Moran has failed to include much of what Dr. Piper actually
wrote because if he had his pathetic attempts of deception would have been
readily exposed for what it is: blatant distortion, lying by omission, and
the willful misrepresentation of Dr. Piper's work in an effort to further
his psychopathic need to smear the Holocaust and its victims. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 15 19:31:53 PDT 1996
Article: 50484 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kids Stay Cozy in Gas Chambers
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:58:20 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <31e6641f.8716817@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

Uh oh, here we go again! Moran, one of our resident looney-toon deniers, 
is recycling more of his denier garbage. Let's take a look at it and see
what farcical story he has spun for us this time....

> "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"
>
> "Jehuda Bacon was a 14-year-old member of the truck commando who
> had to retrieve ashes from the crematoria to spread onto the the icy
> paths during winter. He saw horrible events there, but also got to
> know Kalman Furman, who was always friendly to the teens and ready to
> help. Bacon remembers the '"Aryan"' kapo Jozef Ilezuk--a teacher who
> allowed children, upon completion of their work, to warm themselves in
> an empty gas chamber."
> 
> Well, that certainly is a paragraph full. What a inferrence a
> paragraph can make. Wow.

Be even better if you were to fully cite it. Like:

_Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.374. Or _Anatomy_, p.374. 

It makes it easier for the rest of us to check up on you.  

> Does this mean that kids played a role in the process of the
> exterminations? Seems so.

Unfortunately, many prisoners, one way or another, played a part in the
extermination process. Not much choice really, as can be seen in the next
paragraph following the one Moran quoted:

"On July 22, 1944, approximately 400 Jews who had been deported from Corfu 
and had been in the men's camp more than three weeks were assigned to the 
Sonderkommando. They were by then well aware of what was required of them 
in the crematorium. They refused to work and were subsequently all gassed." 
(_Anatomy_, p.374.)

But in the case of "kids" being a physical part of- or witnessing the 
actual physical extermination process? Not really. The "kids," teenagers
and young adults actually, weren't assigned to the Sonderkommandos, 
but work Kommandos. Actual children were usually gassed to death with 
their mothers. (_Anatomy_, pp.161, 170, 361, 424.) In Jehuda Bacon's case, 
for instance, he was assigned to a truck Kommando. 

Now if one were to insist that trucking away the ashes of the victims makes 
them part of the extermination process, why then so does being a prisoner 
clerk for the SS, or a prisoner doctor for the SS, or for that matter being 
one of the hundreds of thousands of victims who died in the gas chambers. 
The main and all-encompassing purpose of Auschwitz II-Birkenau, lest we 
forget, was the extermination process: To kill people in the gas chambers.
Mainly Jews.

However, for the purpose of distinction, it is traditionally understood 
and agreed upon by historians that the prisoner Sonderkommandos were comprised 
of prisoners involved _directly_ in the extermination process. None of whom 
were "kids" but strong young men, specially picked on arrival, to work in 
the Sonderkommandos at the Kremas. (_Anatomy_, p.372.) 

> How much did he get to see of the operation while going in and
> out to get the ashes? "He saw horrible events there".

Well, it would be likely that he never witnessed actual gassings and
incinerations _inside_ the Kremas, as access to them was restricted to 
the Sonderkommandos. He could have seen people going in to the Kremas 
and never coming out and realized the implication, as did others. He 
could have seen acts of brutality committed by the SS (_Anatomy_, 
pp. 375-378). He could have seen people dying of starvation and disease, 
etc. In other words, he could have seen quite a few "horrible events there."
Many prisoners did and have testified about it. 

But as for seeing events in the Kremas themselves? It's unlikely. He 
probably could only have come as close as the ash pits located outside the
Kremas, where the victims ashes and bones, after being pulverized, were
put until taken away to be dumped into the Vistula River, scattered in
fields 
and compost piles- or along icy paths, etc. He may have seen the bones 
being taken to the pulverizing shed, which is pretty gruesome in itself, 
not to mention the implications. (_Anatomy_, pp.171, 261, 266n;
_Technique_ p.390.) However, Bacon could have (and did) talk to members of
the Sonderkommando about what went on inside the Kremas:

"Yehuda Backon [Jehuda Bacon], a survivor who later became a painter in
Jerusalem, arrived at Birkenau from the Theresienstadt ghetto when he was 
14 years old, in 1943. He came into contact with Sonderkommando prisoners 
while at Birkenau and later testified in the Eichmann trial." 
(_Anatomy_, p.374.)

> Where did the kids go after the shift of duty? Since this tale is
> a continuation of the book's stating how the sondercommando got to
> make discrete contact at times with the general prisoner population we
> might assume the kids just went back to their barracks.

This, of course, is a rhetorical question as work Kommandos, with the 
exception of the Sonderkommandos who lived in the Kremas, where housed 
in the camp barracks. (Note: eventually the "Canada" kommando was moved 
>from  the main camp barracks to live in barracks in the "Canada compound.)

> They didn't say anything because the SS told them all the "horrible things" 
> were to be kept a secret.

Indeed the prisoners were forbidden to talk about the homicidal gassings 
carried out at Auschwitz. For the prisoners the punishment, if they did
talk about it, was severe and swift. Kitty Hart, a prisoner at Auschwitz,
writes:

"Another of the insane, obscene things in the camp was that you were not 
supposed to know about the gassing or burning. Everybody knew really, yet 
nobody dared mention it. In a fit of rage some S.S. women might threaten 
and wave her arm meaningly towards the distant buildings and chimneys, 
and the interminable selections of women to be dragged away and never 
returned could mean only one thing. Yet at other times even a trusted 
_Kapo_ who had been overheard talking about extermination chambers would 
herself be shot, beaten to death on the spot, or taken away to be gassed. 
The same thing would happen immediately to any prisoner of lower standing 
who even mentioned the subject: you were gassed as punishment for having 
dared to suggest that any gassing whatsoever was going on!" (_Return to
Auschwitz_, pp.82-83.)

Seems like a pretty strong incentive to keep quiet! 

> Does this statement say they used the ashes to keep people from
> slipping on the icy walk ways? Yikes. But hold it. What about those
> stories about the ashes had to be further pulverized to obliterate any
> solid remains? Well good thing, what with spreading the remains around
> on icy paths all over camp we couldn't have any signs of what it might
> really be.

Yikes, more rhetorical drivel. The bones of the victims were indeed 
pulverized so they would not be recognized as bones. The reason for 
this, according to Ho"ss, was that shortly after Himmler's summer of 
1942 visit to Auschwitz Himmler gave the order for the mass graves 
(which contained about 100,000 corpses) be opened and the corpses 
cremated. The order further stated that all the ashes be disposed of 
so that later it could not be determined how many victims were killed. 
(_Death Dealer_, p.33.) Obviously, Himmlers orders were left standing 
for the remainder of Auschwitz's operation.

Just as obviously, disposing of the victims' remains to hide the fact that
hundreds of thousands of people were murdered in homicidal gas chambers 
would have hardly made sense if the Nazis allowed tons of intact and 
recognizable human bones to be openly scattered across the fields- and 
paths. Ergo, the bones were pulverized.

But why scatter gritty ashes across the fields? Hardly surprising, aside from
the Nazi intent to hide their heinous deed, when one remembers that many of
the satellite camps of Auschwitz were farm steads and agricultural research 
camps. Ash, of course, especially bone ash (which is mainly calcium
phosphate), makes great fertilizer. (Same for bone meal, i.e. finely
ground bone, which 
is used even today as an animal feed stock and fertilizer.)  As for 
scattering the ashes on icy paths? Why is sand often scattered? To provide
traction. Calcium phosphate, the ground up bone, is not very soluble in 
water (it has a solubility of only 0.002 g per 100 mL of water at room
temperature [Ebbing, _General Chemistry_, p.465] and would stay gritty,
providing traction on the icy paths. 

> Are we to believe that the kids were taken or allowed to go to
> the gas chamber cellars to warm up? Do they mean they went through the
> rooms to the stairs, down the stairs to the gas chambers to get warm?

And where did in Moran's quote from _Anatomy_ did it say that Kapo Jozef 
Ilezuk allowed the children into the gas chambers of Krema II or III? 
(The only Kremas with stairs and semi-buried gas chambers.) It didn't. 
Moran's assertion is therefore nothing more than theatrical speculation.

Considering that Kremas II and III were the _most_ used of the Kremas, and 
that Krema IV was disabled early on, and therefore the least used, it would 
not be unlikely that they were allowed to warm themselves in Krema IV. 
(Or Krema V, which suffered from problems, and was also used less than 
Kremas II or III.) It is also worth noting that the two westernmost rooms 
(gas chambers) of Kremas IV (and by inference Krema V) in the Bauleitung 
drawing 2036 of 11.1.43 have heating stoves. (_Technique_, pp.398-399.)  

Given the above, it would make sense that Krema IV would be the likely
Krema that was used. 

> But what about the heat from the raging or idling burnings of multiple
> furnaces in the cremation area? You'd think it would be pretty warm in
> there. 

Indeed it would be- if the furnaces were running, which they weren't in 
Krema IV as they were permanently disabled shortly after the Krema went 
online. (_Anatomy_, p, 234.) Oops, there goes that "argument."

> But then with all those dead bodies stacked up, as the story
> goes, maybe there wasn't any room for them to stand.

No running furnaces, no incineration of corpses in the furnaces. 
No stacked up bodies awaiting cremation in the furnaces. Oops, there 
goes that "argument" too.

> The Holocaust story says the cellar chambers were aired out after
> each mass murder, which would tend to make them about as cold as the
> outside. Oh', the chambers were heated the story could go?  But then
> the story tells how hot buckets of coke were used to heat the cellar
> chambers for the mass gassing, coke itself giving off carbon monoxide,
> so it wouldn't have been used to heat the chambers just for the
> children. 

I would agree that Kremas II or III weren't the Kremas used. Krema IV 
likely was. 

> Since the Holocaust story has the sondercommandos themselves
> using the gas chambers as living quarters, when they weren't in use of
> course, we might suppose they and the kids all sat around and had
> chats. Or maybe something like 'Hey you kids, shut up. We're trying to
> sleep'.

There's a few problems with Moran's reasoning here. First, he makes a 
production  out of asserting that the children were taken to a Krema 
were they "went through the rooms to the stairs, down the stairs to 
the gas chambers to get warm." This, of course, implies Krema II or III.
Now he talks about the Sonderkommando "using the gas chambers as living
quarters." That only happened in Kremas IV and V. This is apparent from 
Jehuda Bacon's testimony at Eichmann's trial (_Anatomy_, p.172):

"...Here is crematorium number 2 [Krema III], the modern one. Number 
1 and 2 [Kremas II and III] were identical. Numbers 3 and 4 [Kremas IV 
and V] were somewhat less modern. Lodging of the Sonderkommando men, 
forced to live there, were at the top."

Referencing the Bauleitung drawing 1541 (_Technique_, pp.300-301), which 
shows for Krema II (and by implication Krema III) the details of the stairs 
that led from the ground floor to the roof space, it becomes clear that
Bacon meant the Sonderkommandos in Kremas II and II lived "at the top." 
The plans for Krema IV show no stairs leading to the roof space. 

Bacon continues:

"...In the fall of 1944 they had to live inside the crematorium, here on 
top, while some were put up in the gas chambers of crematoria nos. 2 and 4
[Kremas IV and V]."

Bacon clearly confirms that the Sonderkommando in Kremas II and III lived 
in the attic space, while _some_ of those in Kremas IV and V lived in the 
gas chambers. 

So, which is it? Kremas II or III? Or Kremas IV or V? Moran can't have it 
both ways! But as Moran now shows concern that the "kids all sat around 
and had chats" with the Sonderkommandos, let's assume he's abandoned his 
(now completely rhetorical) assertion that Kapo Jozef Ilezuk took them 
to Kremas II or III. 

Given that the Sonderkommando slept in the gas chambers of the disabled 
Krema IV (Krema V still being in use- all those "those dead bodies stacked 
up," ya know), when would the "kids" actually go there? During the night? 
Why? What work would require the "kids" to be out at night, when the camp 
was "locked down?" Especially if, as was in Bacon's case, they were 
transporting ashes out to the fields and the Vistula River? All other 
work Kommandos who went outside the "wire" did so only during the day. 
No, it only makes sense that the "kids" worked in the day like everybody 
else (Sonderkommandos excluded) in the camp. 

How about the Sonderkommandos then? Where were they during the day? Given 
that Krema IV was inoperative (According to Ho"ss Krema IV was not used 
during Aktion Ho"ss (_Death Dealer_, p.37), they certainly weren't tending 
the furnaces! Very likely they were out tending the incineration pits 
instead. And according to Ho"ss the incineration pits were not used at 
night in 1944 because of air raids. (Ibid.) That means Krema IV, unlike 
Krema V, would have been pretty much empty. This sounds about right,
 considering that a mere Kapo would hardly dare to bring "kids" into 
Krema IV while it was in use. (See Kitty Hart's quote above.) 

So what does this mean? How about that Kapo Jozef Ilezuk brought some 
"kids" on a work Kommando into to the unused and empty gas chambers of
Krema IV to warm up a little by the heating stoves for a bit before they 
went on their way? 

Sounds reasonable to me. Unlike Moran's convoluted and contrived tale. 

>  Yup. Something wacky on every page of a Holocaust book. 

Nope, it is yet another wacky example of Moran's twisting of facts beyond 
all recognition so he can, like the true denier he is, make up absurd 
stories to disparage the Holocaust and its victims. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 15 19:31:54 PDT 1996
Article: 50486 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 15:03:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <31e50451.3235741@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

[snip]

> As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
> Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
> give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
> 
>                             --------
>         
> "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
> at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
> former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
> Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
> are much lower than previously thought?"
> 
> *("well over" meaning 4 million)
> 
> The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
> "invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
> "to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
> overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
> by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
> figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
> their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
>        
> Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
> go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.
> 
> "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
> has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

Here, we have yet another brazen example of "lying by omission" and taking
what was said out of context for the purpose of malicious distortion. Such
puerile tactics are the stock-in-trade of Holocaust deniers, of which
Moran is one. The full passage, in context, from the center's "Responses
to Revisionist Arguments" page (URL:
http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/revision.htm#13) is:

"13. For years, the death statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well
over 3 million. Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the former death camp
estimates Jewish losses closer to 1 million. Shouldn't the new figures
imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust are much lower than previously
thought? 

   "The figure of 3-4 million murdered at Auschwitz-Birkenau was an invention 
   of communist officials in Poland (and the former U.S.S.R.) which sought 
   to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering at Auschwitz. To do this, 
   they purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at 
   Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. In a clever attempt 
   to disguise the subterfuge, the figures for Jewish losses were inflated 
   by nearly double, so that their losses would still be larger than those 
   of non-Jewish victims,though now by a much smaller ratio. With the end of 
   communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, officials at the Auschwitz 
   museum finally lowered the casualty figures in line with the estimates of 
   historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and 1 1/2 million 
   people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau, 80 - 90% of them Jews.

   "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust has always been 
   in line with the lower Auschwitz figures.

As can be seen, Moran's implication that "[f]or years, the death
statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well over 3 million..."
was the position of the Center is a shallow-minded canard. The truth, of
course, is that Center framed this as a _question_ (question #13) in
attributing the claims by deniers who assert that the discrepancy between
erroneous death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau by the former Polish and Soviet
governments, and the historically accepted death toll described by the
plaque, somehow means that the death toll of the Holocaust was somehow
significantly revised downwards. 

Of course, as the Wiesenthal Center illustrates, it never was. 

> Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
> 6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
> Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
> down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
> see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
> blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.

Here we see Moran, using his misrepresentation of what the Center said as
a straw man argument, maliciously distorts the assertions of the Center.
Conveniently ignored is that historians, for decades, have come to
agreement that the death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau was between 1-1.5
million (80-90% Jews) and the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust,
including the deaths at Auschwitz, was around 6 million. 

[snip]

> So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
> 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
> the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
> to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
> anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
> would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
> numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
> Jews.

Again, conveniently ignored, is any mention of Dr. Piper's exhaustive
estimate, begun in 1980 and completed in 1986, for the number murdered at
Auschwitz, which was (at least) 1.1 million. It was, in great part, Dr.
Piper's estimate that was used by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum's
1990 reassessment of the Museum's official estimate to 1.1 million. An
estimate that historians and Holocaust researchers are in agreement with.
As is the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

> This poster has over the years witnessed many times...

And _this_ poster has witnessed, over the months, that Moran has been
profuse in his lies and innuendo. Especially when it regards Jews in
general, the numbers of Jews murdered in the Holocaust, the historical
veracity of the Holocaust, and the fact that Auschwitz was an
extermination camp that murdered people in gas chambers with Zyklon B and
their bodies incinerated in furnaces and pits. 

[snip]

> In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
> Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
> pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
> record straight?  

But, as Moran knows full-well knows, that is _exactly_ what the Center was
doing in question #13! Why else would he lie, distort, and fabricate about
what the Center said in question #13 in order to "prove" the Simon
Wiesenthal Center was doing otherwise? Evidently he must feel the
necessity to slander the Simon Wiesenthal Center because their refutation
completely demolishes the deniers' patently false and misleading claims! 

> It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
> initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
> struggled energetically to keep it from happening. 

Considering the Herculean efforts of historians and Holocaust researchers,
such as Dr. Piper, and the desire of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum
to officially reflect the historically accepted estimates for the death
toll at the Auschwitz extermination camp, it CAN be shown that Moran's
absurd claim is exposed for the pathetic lie that it is! 


> It could also be suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the 
> Holocaust beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

It could also be suggested, given the above, that this is nothing more
than yet another self-serving denier lie. 

>  Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

Behold the Liar - Read a Moranic(tm) re-post by Moran!

[snip]

> WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
> has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
> number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
> away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
> "anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".

REALITY CHECK: In other words, Moran is lying through his teeth again and
re-posting this garbage for the umpteenth time. That Moran feels Holocaust
denialism is "chipping away" at the historocity of the Holocaust simply
underscores his propensity for propaganda and delusional state of mind. A
state of mind, besides being delusional, that is driven by rampant
anti-Semitism and sympathy to Nazi ideology. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 15 19:31:54 PDT 1996
Article: 50498 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 16:06:39 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <4s11r0$m3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

[snip]

> How can you cite the photographs of the roof of Leichekeller
> 2 being poured as being taken between February 9 and 11,
> 1943. photos 14-16 (_Technique_, pp.338-339).   and claim
> that the project was substantially completed two weeks earlier?

Mr. Allen, how can _you_ be so completely dense? I have specifically
pointed to the photo of Krema II, dated in mid-January 1943, that shows
L.Keller 1 having a   roof! You may find this photo (8) on page 335 of
_Technique_. Please note the caption that states that the photo was
probably taken sometime between January 20-22, 1943. In addition, I have
made reference to photo 14, on page 338 of _Technique_, which shows the
preparation for the puring of the final layer of concrete for the roof of
Krema II's L.Keller 2. This photo was taken on Janaury 25 or 26, 1943. 

Obviously, the roof of L.Keller 1 was poured _prior_ to Janaury 20-22 and
the roof of L.Keller 2 _prior_ to January 29, 1943. This, of course, in
_complete_ accordance with Kirschneck's January 29, 1943 report on Krema
II (_Technique_, p.214).

Furthermore, my citation of the photos (17/17a) on page 340 of _Technique_
was not in regards to the roof of L.Keller 2 being poured but to the three
"LITTLE CHIMNEYS," on the roof of Krema II's L.Keller 1, having been
constructed _prior_ to the photo being taken. 

Mr. Allen, your inability to comprehend such _simple_ facts, in addition
to your subsequent mis-representation of my arguments leads me to two
conclusions:

1. You are an incompetant researcher. 

2. You have mis-represented my arguments.

Mr. Allen, you are clearly proving yourself incapable of carrying on an
intelligent and meaningfull discussion regarding this topic.

[snip]

> ...Of course, the end result is that the Crena II was not completed
until March 31, 1943.

Correction, Mr. Allen: Krema II was not _officially_ handed over to the
Auschwitz camp administration until March 31, 1943. It _was_ completed
(e.g. "fit for service") in that L.Keller 1 was used for the mass murder
of nearly 1,500 Jews with Zyklon B on March 13 or 14, 1943. (Ibid. p.227.)


> >An interesting aside is that on Febraury 10, 1942, work began on >making
> >an opening in Krema III's L.Keller 2 for the _western access stairway_.
> >This was completed on February 15, 1942. (Ibid. p.217.) Obviously, such
> >things as cutting concrete to "retrofit" the L.Kellers for homicidal 
> >use was undertaken. Why not "vent holes" in the roofs as well?
>
> Perhaps.  

Perhaps, Mr. Allen? Please, sir, do enlighten me as to WHY, if a hole was
cut in the side of an L.Keller, that a hole could NOT be cut in the roof
of an L.Keller? I eagerly await your excuses. 

> But we are talking about what a picture taken in late
> January/early February shows. You are telling me that other
> possible homocidal modifications took place AFTER the latest possible date
> of the "box" picture.  

No, Mr. Allen. As I _clearly_ stated above, my cite regarding the cutting
doorway for the western access stairway into L.Keller 2 was _specifically_
in regards to KREMA III. As we _all_ kmow, Mr. Allen, construction for
Krema III started _after_ the construction of Krema II. 

(BTW, Mr. Allen, your objections regarding the ersatz relevance of
pictures are thus specious in the extreme.)

Clearly, _my_ point was illustrate that Huta _could_ and _did_ cut
concrete, to modify an L.Keller for _homicidal_ use with ease! If Huta did
it to Krema III then there is NO rational reason why they couldn't have
done it to Krema II as well! Ergo, Mr. Allen, cutting four "vent holes"
into the roof of Krema II's L.Keller 1 was no big deal and could be
accomplished in a few days. Or less. 

This _clearly_ would allow the roof of L.Keller 1 to be poured, the "vent
holes" cut into it, and the three "little chimneys" built _after_ photo 8
and _before_ photo 17 (Ibid. pp.335,338) were taken. 

> In fact, I believe that ALL the allegedly homocidal modifications 
> of the Leichenkeller occurred after the latest possible date 
> of the "box" picture.   

And your evidence for this Mr. Allen? So far you haven't given any that
has withstood a modicum of scrutiny. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 16 02:18:41 PDT 1996
Article: 50602 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:34:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 193
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In article <4s12gd$10p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> > ON July 10, 1996 Mark Van Alstine wrote
>
> > >Then please explain, Mr. Allen, the photo of Krema II, taken by the
> > >Bauleitung, that _clearly_ shows three "little chimneys" on the >roof
> > >of L.Keller 1 (_Technique_, p.340, photos 17/17a).
> 
> > It does not clearly show three "little chimneys" unless you want to
> > believe that is what the three boxes are.  
> 
> >It cuts both ways, Mr. Allen. The difference being is that _I_ can point
> >to multiple independant pieces of _evidence_ that indicate that they are 
> >indeed "little chimneys," while _you_ cannot "support" _your_ thesis
> >wthout resort to wild speculation. 
>
> You call it "wild speculation" to see boxes of roofing 
> material on a roof during a roofing job?

And your _evidence_ of "boxes of roofing material on a roof during a
roofing job?" Why, nothing! (You know, like depositions, testimonies,
dated invoices, etc. attesting to your ersatz "boxes of roofing
material.") 

Ergo, you _are_ wildly speculating, Mr. Allen. 

> >>In fact, it is pretty clear from the date of the photograph,
> >>that the three boxes could not have been "little chimneys".  
> 
> >Nope. It only your wishful interpretation that, for some as yet 
> >unspecified reason, you assert that L.Keller 1 could not have been
> >completed before L.Keller 2 was. 
>
> You have missed my point....  

No, Mr. Allen. I have _refuted_ your point!

> ...Projects usually work in phases. L 1's ceiling has its first pour, then 
> L2's; L 1's steel is put in, then L2's, etc.  We know that in late January
> Leichenkeller 2 was having its second roof pour, that would
> imply that L.Keller had its final pour and was ready for 
> application of waterproofing.

And your _evidence_ for all this Mr. Allen? Please, _do_ feel free to cite
the specifics! Else, one might conclude you are speculating (wildly)
again!

In the meantime, I would like to bring your attention to the following:
Photo 14, page 338 of _Technique_, where in the caption it states that
"snow [is] being cleared from the roof of Leichenkeller 2 (the future
undressing room) before the pouring of the FINAL LAYER OF CONCRETE. The
DAMP PROOFING of Leichenkeller 2 HAS ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED." [Emphasis
added. -MV.]

It is worth noting here, Mr. Allen, that the damp proofing was _between_
layers of concrete and not, as you imply above, on the outside of the
L.Keller. 

The date cited for Photo 14 was January 25 or 26, 1943.  

[snip]

> >Photo 14 (Ibid, p.338) shows the the roof to L.Keller 2 being prepared
> >for the pouring of the final layer of concrete. The date is January 25 or
> >26, 1943. 
>
> That is true. 

I'm _so_ glad you agree, Mr. Allen. 

> ...You are claiming that L.Keller 1 is waterproofed,
> roofed, had vent holes knocked in, and little chimneys built by
> the same date.

No, Mr. Allen. Once again you have failed to comprehend what I have
written.  Let me re-iterate once more:

Photo 8 (Ibid. p.335) shows L.Keller 1 with the roof completed (sans
"little chimneys"). The date of the photo is between January 20-22, 1943.

Photo 17 (Ibid. p.340) shows L.Keller 1 with three "little chimneys" on
the (completed) roof. The date is between Febraury 9-11, 1943. 

Ergo, sometime between Janaury 22 and February 11, 1943, the three "little
chimneys" were built.

Your attempted mis-direction involving the construction of L.Keller 2's
roof need not have interfered with this one bit. Certainly, _you_, Mr.
Allen, have _completely_ failed to demonstrate (with _evidence_) how it
would! 

> >In the summary of Kirschneck's inspection report, dated January >29,
> >1943, he wrote (Ibid. p.214): 
>
>    [snip report]

Note: "snipped" were Kirschneck's sumary report regarding Krema II and
Bischoff's report to Kammler. (cf. _Technique_, pp.211, 214.)

> >[Pressac notes: "In fact it was oficially handed over on 31/3/43, a
> >month and a half late."]
>
> Yes, Pressac does...  what are the rest of Pressac's comments
> on the validity of the reports.   They are relevant to the
> discussion of the progress of the work.  
>  
> Pressac, pg. 217 Technique, " Then Bischoff, in response to a
> request...for a progress report, sent the Prufer report off to
> his chief...informing him that Krematorium II was completed
> and claiming it was operational,  WHICH WAS FAR FROM THE 
> CASE. (emphasis added).   

Mr. Allen, if you insist on citing Pressac, perhaps you should more
completely cite his comments regarding this? To wit:

"On the morning of 29th January, two days before the planed date for
bringing Krematorium II into service (31st), Bischoff, Kirschneck and
Pru"fer, probably accompanied by other Bauleitung SS and representatives
of all the civilian firms working on the Krematorien, went to Birkenau and
thouroughly inspected worksites 30, 30a, 30b and 30c. In the afternoon,
Kirschneck drew up a detailed report of the inspection [Documents 24 and
24a]. As soon as he had finished, Pru"fer read it and cooly rewrote it,
simplifying the test <> some of the obvious delays. Pru"fer
entitled the shortened text <> and gave it
to Bischoff [Documents 23 and 23a]. Then Bischoff, in response to a
request made the previous day by the SS-WVHA in Berlin for a progress
report, sent the Pru"fer report off to his chief, Kammler, informing him
that Krematorium II was competed [Document 22] and claiming it was
operational, which was far from the case. He wrote that he expected the
building to be ready on 20th February, whereas the actual date was 31st
March.... (Ibid. p.217.)

Interesting, is it not, Mr. Allen, that _you_ cite Pru"fer's report- which
I did NOT use -while ignoring Kirschneck's _origional_ report- which I DID
use? And when one takes _both_ Kirschneck's _and_ Bischoff's reports into
the context of the discussion: that being when the _roof_ of L.Keller 1
was completed, which was well _before_ the end of January 1943 and that
three of the "little chimneys" were completed by early February, one might
find your digressions rather evasive. 

Nonetheless, you seem determined to make an issue out of this, Mr. Allen.
Very well, then _why_ was the _official_ handing over of Krema II delayed
until March 31, 1943? To wit:

"On 8th February, Messing, who had still not received the ventilation
material required for Krema II, stopped work there, and in order not to
waste time, fitted the anchors for the 8-muffle furnace of Krematorium IV,
probably being engaged on this until and including 10th February.

"...On 11th February, the Bauleitung finally recieved, apparently five
days late, the wagonload of material promised by Topf engineers Schulze
and Pru"fer. On checking the contents, Messig found that the blower for
Leichen keller 1 and the air extractor fan motor for Leichenkeller 2, both
for Kr II, were still missing... 

"...However, Messing recommenced work on intsalling the ventilation
systems of Kr II and continued uninterrupted 13th March. The Bauleitung
SS, having triumpahantly announced to their superiors in Berlin, Kammler
that Krematorium II was complete, were veryu annoyed that it should still
not be operational for the lack of the ventilation essential for its
operation. The fault lay with Messrs Topf, and in particular Pru"fer, who
had promised instant miracles to the Bauleitung, whereas in fact things
dragged on and material failed to arrive...." (Ibid.) 

The short of it is, of course, that the delivery of the _ventilation
systems_ for Krema II and the L.Kellers were _delayed_. (And hence their
installation was also delayed.) However, there was no _delay_ in the
_construction_ of the shell of Krema II (cf. Ibid. p.213), the L.Kellers
or their roofs (cf. Kirschneck's report), and as one can infer from photo
17, their "little chimneys." Given all this it is evident that the
_construction_ of the L.Kellers and the "little chimneys" was NOT
dependant on the _completion_ of the delayed _ventilation system_ of
L.Keller 1. 

All that _was_ dependant on the completion of the ventilation system of
L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen,  was it becoming an operational homicidal gas
chamber. This becomes quite apparent when taking Messing's work timesheets
into account. Messing _completed_ the installation of L.Keller 1's
ventillation system on March 13 and L.Keller 1 was then _immediately_ put
to use in the homicidal gassing of nearly 1,500 Jews from the Cracow
ghetto. (cf. Ibid. pp.370-371.) 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 16 08:46:48 PDT 1996
Article: 50655 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:56:45 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 104
Message-ID: 
References: <31E6D776.3EC2@unb.ca> <4sa4b2$h6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sa4b2$h6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <31E6D776.3EC2@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes:
> 
> >
> >Michael P. Stein wrote:
> >> 
> >>One word with regard to the "suffocating cough:" remember that
> >>untillate in the war, Zyklon contained not only cyanide but a 
> >>lachrymogen as a warning indicator to let people know in the event
> >>of a leak - cyanide is not as clearly noticeable. The cough may 
> >>have been caused by residual lachrymogen, which to be effective 
> >>would have to be detectable before the cyanide developed lethal 
> >>levels, and persist as long as the cyanide was
> >>in the area.
> >
> >If the lachrymogen behaved anything like CN or CS then it may have
> >persisted long *after* any cyanide had been neutralized. The coveralls 
> >I wore during NBC training (and the t-shirt I wore underneath) 
> >that were exposed to gas maintained the distinct odor for months 
> >afterwards, even after having been chemically treated and washed 
> >many many times.
> >
> >This brings up a potentially interesting point. Tear gas will absorb
> >into clothing easily and still be effective, at least minimally.  
> >Exposure to damp skin (not just the eyes and nose/mouth) can be 
> >extremely painful. After the gassing session, I was the first one 
> >to hit the showers and the others laughed when I practically screamed 
> >as I jumped in...at least until it was their turn.  Nasty stuff.
> >
> >Perhaps removal of lachrymogen in Zyklon B was due not solely to its use
> >as a killing agent but to make it easier to clear out the bodies after.
> >Much as the guards supplied the Sonderkommando with gas masks, perhaps
> >they eliminated the lachrymogen because it became a nuisance having the
> >body carriers in pain and not moving bodies efficiently enough.
> 
> This is interesting, but I still inclined to regard that detail as a fake
> detail.  Someone here posted that the warning agent was a formic acid
> compound (smell of mashed ants).  

Formic acid is the chemical agent in the sting of fire ants. It is also
the active chemical agent in stinging nettle. So, besides being quite
pungent, it's also fairly nasty stuff. Fire ant (and nettle) stings can
cause painful blisters. 

> That's a bad scent, but not a cough inducer.  

I would imagine that a substance that is a blistering agent would be quite
irritating if it got into eyes or was inhaled in small amounts.
Interestingly, according to the _McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical
Terms_, formic acid is used in fumigants.

> Secondly, the warning stuff for cyanide gas would be to alert
> you of its presence.  An *alert* that would consist of making you cough,
> and thus taking in deep breaths to defeat it, would, it seems to me,
> ensure deep inhalations of the gas you are supposed to be getting away
> from.

The primary function of a lachrymatory such as CN, CS, and CR, is to cause
nearly instant pain in the eyes and irritation of the mucous membranes.
The threshold concentrations (TC50) and incapacitating concentrations
(IC50) for tear gases (mg/m3) are:

                 CN       CS       CR
TC50 (eyes)      0.3     0.004    0.004
TC50 (airways)   0.4     0.023    0.002
IC50           20 - 50   3.6      0.7

Source: http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/tear.htm

> Your comparison with CN and CS (with which I was trained also) is very
> apt.  And I think it was per analogy with such gases (which go back to
> WW1) that the above *detail* was created.
> 
> However there are two questions that remain unanswered:  Does HCN provoke
> a cough?  How can the warning stuff provoke a cough when by 1944 the
> Zyklon was supposedly made without it?

"Symptoms of cyanide poisoning vary and depend on, for example, route of
poisoning, total dose and the exposure time. If hydrogen cyanide has been
inhaled, the initial symptoms are restlessness and increased respiratory
rate. Other early symptoms are giddiness, headache, palpitations and
respiratory difficulty. These are later followed by vomiting, convulsions,
respiratory failure and unconsciousness. If the poisoning occurs rapidly,
e.g., as a result of extremely high concentrations in the air, there is no
time for symptoms to develop and exposed persons may then suddenly
collapse and die."

Source: http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm

Evidently when HCN is inhaled it can cause respiratory difficulty. Unless,
of course, one is exposed to high concentrations. Then one simply keels
over dead.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 16 13:27:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50759 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!mr.net!sgigate.sgi.com!cygnus.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Any day now"?
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:37:42 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References: <4scq5r$k49@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4sedkd$g10@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sedkd$g10@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
>   
> >       They are a bunch of amateurs involved in libel and as a group have
> >  organized to the point they are liable under the RICO statutes.  Treble
> >  punative damages there as I recall.  Against each individual as I
> >  recall.  
> 
> Your legal theories are going downhill.  Are you just naturally incoherent or 
> is the ethanol slowly eating away your brain cells.

Methanol. And it's eating what passes as the Troll's brain rather quickly
it seems....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 16 15:54:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.exodus.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:53:05 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <31e50451.3235741@news.pacificnet.net>  <4sekkm$elv@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <31ebc5d0.15576839@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31ebc5d0.15576839@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> >rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:
> >
> >> [...]same brazen example all over again. Yawn. Perhaps
> >> your response could be saved in Moran's FTP directory so that we can save 
> >> a trip to DejaNews next time?
> >
> >Archived as people/m/moran.tom/behold-the-liar .
> 
> >
> >Posted;  emailed "FYI" to Mr. Graves, Mark Van Alstine, and Ken McVay.
> >-- 
> > Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> > jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> > Hate mail will be posted.
> 
> For a full compliment of Jamie > Deja News > "author" > "Jamie
> McCarthy".


Actualy, Moran, _I'll_ be happy to give Mr. McCarthy my full compliments!

Thanks Jamie! Now I can simply point to the URL when Moran posts his pack
of lies again. 


Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 16 18:21:04 PDT 1996
Article: 50815 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:34:18 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
References: <31eafe62.18662855@news.pacificnet.net> <15JUL199623572421@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31eb9c91.5017179@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31eb9c91.5017179@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
> >    Except you left out mention of Mr. Edeiken's e-mail to you.  Doesn't
> >    that make you a liar?  You might have a legitimate complaint about him
> >    retracting his offer, but only if you put forward complete information
> >    to lay out such a complaint.  If you lie by omission, you are no better
> >    than you claim he is.
> >
> >                         daniel david mittleman 
> >===========================================================================
> 
>         If there are any others out there that know anything about this
> "retracting" e-mail sent to me, please sign on now.
> 
> 1.
> 2.
> 3.
> 4.
> 5.
> 6.
> 7.
> 
>         Mr.VanAlstine? Chuck?  Mr."McFee"? Nele what-its-name? Anybody?

Moran, now _why_ would you think _I_ would know anything about whatever
e-mail _you_ recieved? (Earth calling Moran!) I don't even send _you_
courtesy notification of my posts that expose your bullshit and lies
anymore becuase you whined and stamped your foot asking me not to! 

Besides, you've stated several times _you_ don't read any e-mail I send
you. Very likely you don't read Mr. Edeiken's (or anybody _else's_ that
show you for they lying fool you are) and simply deleted it unread! And
you have the balls to  complain?  

Yet another expample of your Moranic(tm) chutzpuh. Figures.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 16 19:19:53 PDT 1996
Article: 50821 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:35:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <4rqd32$bsn@access1.digex.net> <4rvl74$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4sda14$89n@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4sfhov$73l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4sga45$qch@access5.digex.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sga45$qch@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

[snip]

>Say, Matt, do you suppose you could possibly _stay_ _on_ _track_? 

Ahem. You are talking to a loose cannon here. By _definition_ he has
jumped his track....

[snip]

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 16 23:54:14 PDT 1996
Article: 50878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!news.exodus.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:05:43 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <4s2fqq$agu@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s3i74$jk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4s7llo$m0v@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4sapns$c0s@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sapns$c0s@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> In article <4s7llo$m0v@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, the Troll wrote:

[snip]

> >How about experts on crematoria?  Which collaborative papers can you 
> >name that support the crematoria rates that had to have existed?  
> >Can you even name a paper by an historian that even references a paper 
> >by a crematorium designer? (And post it of course, you have so many 
> >references no one else, including Nizkor, does not seem to have.) 

"Gas Chambers and Crematoria," by Francisek Piper; _Anatomy of the
Auschwitz Deathcamp_, pp.157-182.

"The Machinery of Mass Murder at Auschwitz"  by Jean-Claude Pressac with
Robert-Jan Van Pelt; Ibid. pp.183-245.
 
> There are references to the Topf patent filed in the '50s; it has been
> mentioned in posts here.  You have not seen them?  Or simply did not
> remember what you read?

The patent for this single-muffle cremation furnace, designed by Martin
Klettner, was issued by the German Patent Office of the Federal Republic
of Germany on January 5, 1953. The patent number was 861 731. (cf.
_Technique_, pp.104-105.)

"The main feature of the invention was the almost complete combustion of
the corpse (so that the volume of ashes remaining was rarely enough to
fill a normal urn) by a system of hot air recovery. The time taken to
cremate a corpse was from 30 to 45 minutes. The guillotine-type closing
system fot the muffle door was that designed by Pru"fer for his 8-muffle
furnace. It is not known whether this model, a little marvel of technical
design, was ever marketed. It contained much of the experiance gained by
Topf in the concentration camps." (Ibid. p.105.)

In addition there are the "Operating Instructions for Coke-Fire Topf
Double-Muffle Incineration Furnace;" SS-Sturmbannfu"hrer Ja"hrling's
memorandum regarding the calulated throughput of 4,756 people in 24 hours
for the five Kremas. (cf. Ibid. pp.136, 247.) 

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 07:36:31 PDT 1996
Article: 50911 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:44:44 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 155
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>      
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:79891 alt.revisionism:50911 talk.politics.european-union:4945

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Holger
Skok wrote:
> >
> >Now, what happens when these crystals come into contact with
> >the victims' skins? What is the typical human body temperature? 
> >Given the fact that you are denying the holocaust, I had better
> >spell it out for you: The surface temperature of the skin is higher
> >than the sublimation temperature of cyanide gas and with the
> >chamber jam-packed full of humans there was no need for any
> >additional heating. The victims themselves provided the heat
> >necessary to set the cyanide free from the Zyklon B crystals.
> >
> >So much for the "slowness of evaporation" argument.
> >
> Hm, you are speaking of cyanid crystals and thus confusing Zyklon B with
> sodiumcyanid crystals. 

The use of the term "crystal" was (and is) often used to describe Zyklon
B, which used Erco as the the prussic acid (HCN) carrier. Zyklon B has
also been described as "granules" and "pellets," etc..

> ...According to Encyclopedia Britannica vol 6, p 914 from
> 1946 you can read the following: "Stabilized, liquid hydrocyanic acid, 
> absorbed in granular diatomite, is marketed under the name of Cyclon [in the
> English speaking world]"....

Diatomite (Diagreiss - Dia gravel) was indeed used as _one_ of the
carriers to Zyklon. The other carrier were silica gel (Erco) and wood
fiber discs. (cf. NI-9912.) 

> ...Zyklon B is a fluid which become a gas when it comes in touch with the air.

No, Zyklon B is a _solid_ consisting of Erco, in which prussic acid was
absorbed. When Zyklon B was exposed to air the prussic acid rapidly
evaporated, leaving the spent Erco carrier intact- and non-toxic. 

> ...The higher the temperature the quicker this fluid evaporates or boils 
> into gas. 

Yes. Given that the boiling point of HCN is ~26C and has a high vapor
pressure it evaporates rather quickly- even at low (e.g. 0C) temperatures.

>...Cyclon or Zyklon B as it was called in Germany (B stands for
> Blausaeure) came in pellets. 

What the "B" in Zyklon B actually stands for has been the topic of some
discussion. It has been suggested that the term " Blausaeure" (Blue acid)
was a kind of "folk nomenclature" (i.e. Zyklon B was blue in color and
contained prussic acid- hence "blue acid."), though the term "Prussic
acid" is probably more accurate. It has also been pointed out that there
were two types of Zyklon: A and B. Zyklon A, the first to be developed,
did not have a lachrymal (i.e. a tearing agent, or irritant, used as a
warning against accidental exposure). Zyklon B did, which in addition
making it safer (it was required by German law), and a more effective
insecticide (it stimulated the respitory system of insects), also allowed
it to be patentable. 

> ...These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to 
> the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long enough 
> in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence on the 
> temperature of the absorbed liquid.

It would not have been neccessary for the Zyklon B to have maintained
contact with the victims bodies to have an effect on the rate of the HCN
evaporation. The crowding several hundreds of people into the confines of
the gas chambers caused the ambient temperature of the gas chambers to
increase enough to make them hot and stuffy (cf. Tauber's deposition;
_Technique_, p.489). This, of course, would have helped speed the
evaporation of HCN from the Zyklon B. 

In addition, the gas chambers of Kremas II and III were also heated by
bringing in iron baskets of red-hot coke in the winter, or by using the
ventilation system to extract the cool air in the summer, prior to gassing
the victims (cf. _Anatomy_, p.170). Kremas IV and V used heating stoves in
their two main gas chambers (cf. _Technique_, p.398-399.) This too, of
course, would also have helped speed the evaporation of HCN from the
Zyklon B. 

However, to answer the Mr. Skok's question of "what happens when these
crystals come into contact with the victims' skins?" the following may be
helpful:

"...Sometimes at the moment when the gas evaporated, I tried to feel it by
handling the crystals. They felt like velvet and were cool and damp..."
(from the deposition of Andrzeje Rablin, prisoner number 1410, re: the
delousing of clothes in Block 3; _Technique_, p.25.)

"Prime among its [hydrocyanic acid] properties is ts low boiling point- it
transforms itsekf completely into a gas at 25.7 C. To understand its
effectiveness in kiling human beings, one need only compare this boiling
point with that of ethyl ether, which is 34.5 C. This temperature means
for hydrocyanic acid what 132 C means for water. In other words, for
hydrocyanic acid, the surface of the human body is as hot as a surface
heated to 132 C would be for water." (_Nazi Mass Murder_, p.207.) 

As, if not _more_, important, however, is the vapor pressure of HCN over a
range of temperatures. According to Mr. Green, who is a doctoral canditate
of chemistry at Stanford, the various vapor pressures of HCN over the
follwing temperature range is:

Temperature (C)     Vapor Pressure HCN (Torr)     (ppm)

-20                           100                132,000
-10                           165                217,000
  0                           280                368,000
 10                           410                539,000

Source: Message-ID <4l1122$5nb@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>

Obviously, even if the Zyklon B were to lay on the "cold flor" [sic] there
would be no problem in a fatal concentration of HCN gas building up in the
homicidal gas chambers, as can be seen by the following:

 Concentration (mg/m3)        Effect

 300                          Immediately lethal
 200                          Lethal after 10 minutes
 150                          Lethal after 30 minutes
 120-150                      Highly dangerous (fatal) after 30-60 min.
 50-60                        Endurable for 20 min. - 1 h without effect
 20-40                        Light symptoms after several hours

Source:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/chemical-weapons.cyanide

Furthermore, all the above is very much in accordance with what Dr. Peters
of DEGESCH (the manufacturer of Zyklon) wrote in regards to the
evaporation rate of Zyklon:

"The development of the gas from the Zyklon sets in with great vehemence
immediately following the pouring out of it...." (_Blaus"aure zur
Sch"adlingbek"ampfung_,  p.64f.) 

Given all this, and that the patent for Zyklon indicates that nearly all
the HCN would evaporate in about 10 minutes (at 25 C), there appears to be
compelling evidence that the use of Zyklon B for the purpose of mass
murder in the homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz was quite effective and
quite fast. 


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 07:36:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TEST 4 [2/2]
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:25:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4se1hu$5li@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4sh0ep$pt1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sh0ep$pt1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> I have already stated innumerable times that I accept that lethal gassings
> occurred.  So much for that.  Which parts of the Soviet reports from
> Majdanek and Auschwitz does Mr. Green regard as true and why?

One could easily imagine that Mr. Greene's reply would be (and rightly so,
IMHO): "I accept the historically accepted scope of homicidal gassings at
Auschwitz. So much for that. Which parts of the Soviet reports from these
locations does Mr. Ehrlich regard as false and why?" 

> ...Btw, you are aware that two of the signatories to the phony Katyn 
> Forest report also signed the Auschwitz report, and a third signatory to the 
> Auschwitz report was the renowned *scientist* Trofim Lysenko.  I am sure that 
> Mr. Green's scientific training has led him through the ideas of that
> well-known charlatan at one point or another, if only for entertainment.

Is this _why_, Ehrlich606, it is your apparent opinion that the Soviet
Special Commision's report regarding Auschwitz somehow effects the
historically accepted scope of homicidal gassings there? 

Or is there some _other_ reason(s) you have chose to not make clear? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 07:36:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50974 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!decwrl!brighton.openmarket.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:40:14 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4s9li7$20u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4saf7n$2ee@atlas.uniserve.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4saf7n$2ee@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) wrote:

[snip]

> Just like you said*, Danny, "Who needs comedy on TV when we've got
> alt.revisionism?"  But wouldn't he need a massive deposit of active
> brain cells before he could be deposed?!
> 
> *Well, I think it was you who said it - but it might have been someone
> else at bat:>)


Hmmm. Good point, Hilary. Perhaps the Troll can be entered as a piece of
physical evidence? You know, like a tree stump or maybe a fence post or
something? 

Mark 


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 10:54:24 PDT 1996
Article: 78033 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:37:56 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 1
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 10:59:46 PDT 1996
Article: 51011 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!miwok!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:25:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <4s2fqq$agu@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s3i74$jk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
> 
> > A great problem with the orthodox gas chamber story and alleged history
> > is that is has not been exposed to the rigors of academic examination and
> > review.
> 
> This is a mind-boggling excursion into falsehood, an example of the
> Big Lie.

[An excellent examination of DvdThomas's intellectual dishonesty snipped]

As DvdThomas propagates the Big Lie what does that make him? Hmmm? 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 10:59:47 PDT 1996
Article: 51021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!cygnus.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:07:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <31e50451.3235741@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31e50451.3235741@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>                 Behold the lie, tell your friends.

[re-posted Moranic(tm) garbage snipped]

For a rebuttal of Moran's post detailing his outright lies, malicious
distortions,  propensity for propaganda, rampant anti-Semitism, and his
delusional state of mind, please refer to:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/behold-the-liar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 14:38:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960711: Speaking up [Your daily Nazi propaganda fix]
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:38:30 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <199607117203.aba1812@infinity.c2.org>  <4s9rf8$odi@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
Marty Kelley  wrote:

> On 14 Jul 1996, one of the alleged human beings posting as A Huber wrote:
> 
> > As punishment for McOyVey's sins, there shall be a "little" holocaust of 
> > local import before morn'.
> > 
> > Watch our local papers Tuesday for details.
> 
> That's close enough to a direct threat for my money--I'm notifying the
> idiot's ISP.

And the FBI. Perhaps H*b*r should explain the allegorical nuances of his
posts to the Feds? Just to put them at ease, of course. I do believe
making threats of violence across interstate boundries is a federal
offense, yes? 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 15:13:47 PDT 1996
Article: 51067 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:27:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <4scl8i$ldv@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4si1a6$cep@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4si1a6$cep@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> It would be very helpful at this point to have the dimensions and
> characteristics of the induction column.  I gather that the tube was a
> kind of pipe with a wire mesh netting on the bottom.  But to have the
> exact dimensions (diameter, length) would also be helpful.

In Kremas II and III "Zyklon B was distributed in the gas chamber[s]
through four introduction columns custom-made in the metalwork shops of
the camp. They were shaped like pillars and made of two wire grids with a
moveable core. Cross sections of the pillars, 3m high, formed a square,
each side measuring 70cm. Fastened to the floor, they passed through
openings in the ceiling, ending outside as little chimneys closed with a
concrete cover equiped with two handles. The external grid (made of wire 3
mm thick) formed interstices measuring 45 mm x 45 mm, and eas fastened to
cube-shaped metal scantlings (cross section 50 mm x 10 mm). Interstices of
the external grid--150 mm apart from the internal grid and similarly
fastened--were smaller (25 mm x 25 mm). The two grids served as a screen
for the moveable core that could be introduced through the opening in the
ceiling. The core consisted of a tin prism measuring 150mm x 150 mm at the
cross section. The bottom of the core was flat, and the top was a cone. A
wire mesh with interstices of one sq mm extended from the base of the core
to the base of the cone, and was fastened to a post 25 mm away. The entire
length of the core was covered with tin. When Zyklon B pellets fell onto
the cone, they spread uniformly throughout the core and stopped at its
lower part. After the gas evaporated, the entire core was removed from the
gas chamber and the used peelts of diatomite were poured out." (_Anatomy_,
p.167.)

> It would also be good to know how this tube was nestled into the square
> lattice-work column described inter alia by Nyiszli.  The dimensions and
> characteristics of this column would also be good to know.

There was no "tube." There was a moveable core which was raised (via a
wire), filled with Zyklon B, and lowered. After the Zyklon B spent itself
the core was again raised and the (inert) Zyklon B removed. (cf.
_Technique_, p.484.) 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 17 23:20:49 PDT 1996
Article: 51108 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!cygnus.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:17:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <31eafe62.18662855@news.pacificnet.net> <15JUL199623572421@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31eb9c91.5017179@news.pacificnet.net>  <31ebe98c.1405695@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31ebe98c.1405695@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

[snip]

> Okay, thanks for the reply. Just trying to figure out why Mr.Mittleman
> would be the one to know what is going on. Your name was put on the
> list of those who might have had some information because of "Birds of
> a feather post like each other". I theorized that maybe Mr.Edeiken
> might have sent out a mass e-mailing to his brethren think alikes for
> help. After all, ya all do tend to goose step.

In other words you wallowed in your prejudices and bigotry. Typical
Moranic(tm) behavior.  

> I don't recall not asking to send me any e-mail, I recall telling you
> not to send me any more e-mail, and you did anyway.

Telling me? Oh, my! And did anyway? Oh, my!


Mark

posted/e-mailed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 18 07:21:13 PDT 1996
Article: 51171 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:30:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 75
Message-ID: 
References: <31ea4bda.344120815@news.zilker.net> <4sjg93$qjq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sjg93$qjq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <31ea4bda.344120815@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
> Curtis) writes:
> 

[snip]

> >Broszat is out of date.
> 
> You have claimed _twice_ that Broszat is out of date.  On what basis? In
> other words, what earth shaking discovery has there been since 1960 to
> make Broszat out of date?

Perhaps an excerpt from a post of Dr. Keren's will help shed some light on
this particular issue? To wit:

From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Did Baron Lie Again (About Hoessler's Testimony?)
Message-ID: 
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 13:33:28 GMT

=============================================================================

[snip]

I've responded many times, and will do so again, with the following
observations:

1) Dr. Broszat said that the gas chamber was built in Dachau with
   the intent of gassing people in it. As some other historians, he
   said the SS didn't have time to use it.

2) Dr. Broszat also said, of course, that the SS gassed to death
   millions of people in other death camps. One has to wonder why
   Baron uses Dr. Broszat as an authority on Dachau but not on
   any other aspect of the Holocaust?

3) As a recent publication of the "Institute for Contemporary
   History" suggests, recent evidence has led them to conclude
   that gassing on a small scale did place in Dachau. Dr. Broszat's
   letter was written in the 1960's, wasn't it?

I am quoting from their publication:



Dachau (Upper Bavaria, northeast of Munich): During the establishment
of a new house of cremation in 1942 also a gas chamber was established
in it in which in connection with the medical experiments of the chief
company commander of SS Dr. Rascher also a few experimental gassings
were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed. (On that see
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gunther Kimmel: The Concentration Camp Dachau. A study of the Nazi
crimes of violence in Bavaria in the NS-time II, edited by Martin
Broszat and Elke Froehlich, Munich, R. Oldenburg Press, 1979, P. 391.)
Larger gassing operations have not taken place in Dachau.



[snip]

=============================================================================


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 18 09:35:49 PDT 1996
Article: 51222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos make Holocaust story rediculous
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:54:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
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In article <4sjeab$q15@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> Subject:        Re: Photos make Holocaust story rediculous
> From:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> Date:   Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:27:22 GMT
> 
> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
> # Now lets get this straight, thousands of people are 
> # gassed in the building, and then the poisonous residue 
> # is ventilated into the immediate area of the Germans 
> # facilities?
> 
> We've been through this before.
> 
> There *are* cyanide traces in the building, which proves
> cyanide gas *was indeed used there*. 
> 
> This means that your claim - that it would have been too
> dangerous to use it there - is false.
> 
> What can't you understand? 
> 
> This is Keren's response.  Comment:  But many contend that the cyanide
> traces are totally inadequate to the daily gassings that are supposed to
> have occurred there.

Many contend? Who are this "many" who "contend," Ehrlich606? On what basis
do they "contend that the cyanide traces are totally inadequate?" What
_evidence_ do these "many" (what?) have in support of their "contentions?"
On what basis should we accept these "contentions?" On what basis should
we accept YOUR contentions, Ehrlich606? 

In other words, Ehrlich606, please support your nebulous claims (this is
by no means the first such!) with more than simple hand-waving! If, that
is, you wish to be taken (and dismissed) as something other than yet
another denier crank. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 18 09:35:50 PDT 1996
Article: 51224 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:23:11 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 43
Message-ID: 
References: <31ea4bda.344120815@news.zilker.net> <4sjf7e$q97@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4sjf7e$q97@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <31ea4bda.344120815@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
> Curtis) writes:
> 
> >>>
> >>Actually, I think it was Richard Widmann who brought the matter up with
> >>appropriate quotes from Martin Broszat and Simon Wiesenthal.
> >
> >Broszat's quote appears to be out of date and Simon Wiesenthal's quote
> >is subject to interpretation. I thought YOUR concern was gassing
> >testimony and not total denial.
> >
> >
> Obviously, your definition of *Total Denial* means anything less than
> *Total Acceptance*

Actually, Mr. Curtiss has been simply pointing out the self-contradictions
between what you, Ehrlich606, _profess_ to believe and what you _actually_
say. 

Case in point is your professing acceptance of the evidence of homicidal
gassing while holding up specious denier claims as "evidence" to the
counter. 

A bit of a dichotomy, wouldn't you say? 

But then so is defending and/or ignoring the Troll's contemptuous
anti-social behavior and ad homine attacks while lamenting the lack of
civility and meaningfull discussion in alt.revisionism. 

Methinks thou speaketh with forked tongue.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 18 13:55:20 PDT 1996
Article: 78234 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:22:51 -0700
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 18 17:17:57 PDT 1996
Article: 51271 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 13:46:26 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 83
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In article <4skfu8$c9v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article ,
> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
> 
> >
> >The Troll wrote:
> >
> >> redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote:
> >> 
> >> > When the silica gel is completely dry, it is
> >> > blue. When it becomes wet, it is pink.  When the dessicant just
> >> > starts to go bad, it has a purplish color; one might even say mauve.
> >> 
> >> But we know from the Degesh document on the formulation used
> >> for fumigation that the carrier was wood pulp.  So there is no need to
> >> bring this into the discussion. It is not relevent.
> >
> >Ehrlich606, did you see this?
> >
> >Is this the kind of "skepticism" you approve of?
> 
> Yes. Matt has argued, and I don't see a hole in his argument, that the 
> document he quotes on ZB specifically references wood snippets and NOT
> Erco cubes.

You don't "see a hole in his argument?" LOL! Oh, my! That _is_ rich!  Try
opening your eyes for a change, Ehrlich606! To wit:

In article <4pqn96$g7v@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> the Troll wrote: "But as
you know by now from the Degesh pub that silica gel was not used as the
carrier, rather either wood pulp.... But in case you missed the Degesh
pub... Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication " 

According to the "Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the
Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)" [NI-9912] it states:

"ZYKLON is the absorption of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant by
a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass (diagriess -
Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers."
(_Technique_, p.18)

Clearly, Ehrlich606, both you and the Troll are full of shit. 

> >We have seen an explanation of how the Erco, the silica gel, might well
> >appear blue to some people and mauve to others -- mauve being just a
> >shade of purple-pink.  It seems like quite a convincing explanation to
> >me.  It eliminates any doubts I may have had about whether the
> >description of Zyklon as "mauve" indicated that the witness had never
> >in fact seen the Zyklon in the first place.
> 
> *might well* is not *is*.  I am glad that you have no more doubts.  The
> problem is that the color change is precisely the opposite of what it
> should be.  *Wet* ZB, according to this, would be pink.  *Dry* (or
> outgassed) ZB would be blue.  

Nope. "Dry" Zyklon B (i.e. right out of the can, thus not having been
exposed to H20) would be BLUE. And "wet" Zyklon B, having been exposed to
the moisture (H20) in the air, particularly in the confines of the hot and
stuffy gas chambers where hundreds of terrified people were breathing
before they were murdered, would change color towards PINK. 

MAUVE is along the color gradient between BLUE and PINK. 

> You can talk about this until you are mauve in the face, but blue is not
mauve 
> nor is it pink.  Nor are wood snippets ERCO cubes.

And you, Ehrlich606, can utter specious inanities all you want. They
remain, however, specious inanities -and will be treated as such.

[The rest of Ehrlich606's drivel snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 18 19:37:23 PDT 1996
Article: 51285 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:52:16 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 81
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sli83$nqp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <31ee36de.56311829@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
> Curtis) writes:
> 
> >
> >rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
> >
> >>In article <4sh9hp$n9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> >>Ehrlich606  wrote:
> >>
> >>>Thank you, gentlemen, for confirming to me that the coughing fits were
> a
> >>>fake detail.  You have also confirmed that the *blue bodies* is another
> >>>fake detail.  Nevertheless, I must insist the Zyklon was mauve.
> >>
> >>That's intellectually dishonest Mr. Ehrlich and you know it.
> >>
> >
> >Do you think he really does? I wonder. . .
> >
> >
> 
> OK, let's put it this way.  HCN does not produce a hacking cough....  

Nyiszli didn't say it produced a "hacking cough." He said:

"Even two hours later it produced a suffocating cough."
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^                  
And early symptons of HCN poisoning _can_ cause respitory difficulties.
(cf. http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm)

"...Lesser exposures cause a constriction and numbness in the throat,
stiffness of the jaw, salivation, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, and
apprehension...." (cf.  http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu/txt/fairs/15547 )

In your opinion, Ehrlich606, would a "suffocating cough" fall within the
definition of "respitory difficulties?" If not, why? 

> ...So N. is wrong about this.... 

In your opinion.

> ...Bilek says that HCN poisoning does not turn people blue....  

The DuPont MSDS on HCN say it can: 

"In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red
skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the
skin color may be bluish...."

Do you suppose 1,000-2,000 victims locked in a gas chamber that was "very
hot" and "so suffocating as to be unbearable" (cf. _Technique_, p.489),
and who trampled and fought against each other in their terror to get away
>from  the HCN gas, might cause this? 

> ...So N. is wrong about this, too....  

In your opinion.

> The Zyklon is whatever color you insist.

No, Zyklon B is whatever it color it was. 

BTW, Ehrlich606, do you suppose it is possible that Nyiszli saw _spent_
pellets of Zyklon B as assumed that their color was same as when it was
when it was administered? 

Out of curiosity, Ehrlich606, what exaxtly do you think you are trying to
accomplish here with your rhetorical games? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:52 PDT 1996
Article: 51348 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:42:45 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
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In article ,
skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger Skok) wrote:

[snip]

> By the way: I am still waiting for sources on his implied claims that the 
> victims would have bled, vomited and defecated in the chambers.

I don't know his exact sources for this. However, there are various
eyewitness descriptions of such scenes:

Dr. Nyiszli. (_Auschwitz: a doctor's eyewitness account_, p.52.)

Dr. Bendel. (_Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers_, p.470.)

Henryk Tauber. (Ibid. p.489.)

It should be noted, however, that Nyiszli and Bendel attributed the blood
to the victims frenzied struggles and not, apparantly, to any effects of
HCN. None of the above eyewutnesses, however, mentioned vomiting. (Though
vomiting _is_ a symptom of HCN poisoning, it may not have happened much,
if at all, because the concentration of HCN in the gas chambers was so
high as to be _immediately_ lethal.)

[snip]

Mark


[Note: Follow-ups trimmed to alt.revisionism.]

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 19 09:06:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51403 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lysenko: Hero of Soviet Science
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 13:02:42 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <4skq7u$gu1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4skq7u$gu1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> Comment: including gassing and incinerating 8.5 million people in three
> locations with scarcely a trace, perhaps.

And how did Lysenko, specifically, influence the Soviet Special
Commision's estimate of the death toll at Auschwitz? Please be specific.
And please explain why you attach such apparent significance in regards to
the victims of Nazi mass murder at being killed with "scarcely a trace."
What do you _mean_ by the term "scarcely a trace?" 

> As per this NG, Lysenko was a signatory to the Soviet Special Commission
> on Auschwitz, submitted by the Soviets as USSR-8, and given judicial
> notice by the IMT.  Lysenko was no doubt consulted as to the truth of the
> several medical allegations contained therein.

[snip]

And what does this have to do with the estimate of the death toll from
Nazi mass murder at Auschitz II-Birkenau? Please be specific. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 19 16:20:10 PDT 1996
Article: 51441 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:24:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 102
Message-ID: 
References:  <4sn56r$gr4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sn56r$gr4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Reply to Van Alstine 7/12
> The picture of three boxes is tenuous proof that there 
> are holes UNDER the boxes.  Your repeated presentation
> of the photograph is more indicative of your
> desire to believe than of the probative value of the 
> picture.  Clear and direct evidence which
> rebutts the strained inferences you would draw
> about what might be under the boxes.
> 
> 1.  There are NO holes in the roof where the boxes were:

You have x-ray vision Mr. Allen? How cute. 

> 2.  A picture taken earlier (days or weeks) clearly shows
>      NO holes in the roof:

And what picture, exactly, is this Mr. Allen? 

And what relevence is this to the fact that holes in the roof were cut and
the "little chimneys" built? Except to help point out the approximate time
the "little chimneys" were constructed?

None. 

> 3.  No other Holocaust story claims that there were THREE
>       holes:

Nobody has claimed there were _just_ three holes, Mr. Allen. Except, it
seems, you. 

The obvious explination as to why only _three_ "little chimneys" were
visibla in the photo is simply that the _fourth_ had not yet been built.
In other words, Mr. Allen. The photo was taken whilr the "little chimneys"
were being constructed.

> 4.  The picture was taken at a time when the roof was
>        probably being waterproofed and/or having a concrete
>         cap applied:

Nope. The roofs of _both_ L.Kellers were already poured and completed
prior to the end of Janaury.

> 5.  The installation of "vent holes" in late January is out of
>         syn with the rest of the construction schedule of 
>          Leichenkeller 1 Crema II.  Of example, ventilation
>          system was not complete until March 13th. 

Specious drivel, Mr. Allen. This has been put to rest already. 

> 6.  The picture itself shows the snow melted on the roof 
>         but not on the top of the boxes.

Not only x-ray vision, but eagle eyes too! Unfortunately for you, Mr.
Allen, I don't see snow on the tops of the "little chimneys" in the photo.
You might want to see an optometrist about your vision.... 

Furthermore, I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that since
Krema II was still undr construction, and not all the "little chimneys"
were built, that work was still scheduled to complete the last "little
chimney?" Could it have been, perhaps, that the roof of L.Keller 1 was
_cleared_ of snow? Seems like a rather mundane thing to do, I would think:
Clear the worksite of snow so the work goes easier and quicker. 

> Mark, your insistance that there "really are vent holes 
> under the boxes in the picture" is as stupid as your
> insistance that a picture of a manhole totally off the
> roof was a "vent hole" in the roof.  You have tried to
> make your point.  Move on to something new. 

Mr. Allen, simply said is that you have not, nor are you able to, support
your denial of the fact that these "little chimneys" existed and were part
of the Zyklon B introduction system for Krema II. Your arguments are
specious and misleading in the extreme and you have shown a complete lack
of abilities in interpreting the historical evidence. 

In short, Mr. Allen, it is _you_ who is the stupid one and not I. 

It is evident Mr. Allen, that you have (nor had) anything constructive to
add to this discussion. Your arguments are berift of any legitimate
interpretation of the historical evidence and are therefore worthless. I
feel then it is safe to say then that this thread has expired and that the
fabrications and distortions introduced by deniers regarding the Zyklon B
introduction system of Krema II (and III) have been proven meritless and
can be ignored. 

Perhaps you should slink back to your masters at the IHR and 'fess up to
your dismal failure to propagate denier lies and propaganda? 

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 19 16:20:10 PDT 1996
Article: 51483 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 13:58:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:  <4skfu8$c9v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
> 
> # Yes.  Matt has argued, and I don't see a hole in his 
> # argument, that the document he quotes on ZB specifically 
> # references wood snippets and NOT Erco cubes.
> 
> The book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, General Manager of Degesch,
> was published in 1933. It not only mentions the Erco carrier,
> it even has a photograph of the Erco pellets.
> 
> One simply despairs of you people. We have gone to the trouble
> not only of finding the book, but even scanned the relevant
> material and posted it to the web.
> 
> But even this doesn't help. Nothing helps with you people. It's
> like talking to a wall.

If it were _only_ like talking to a wall! At least walls are _silent_.
Instead, we must listen to a barrage of inane (and insane at times)
drivel. 

Needless to say, the mind boggles at the ersatz mental processes of the
deniers. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 19 19:11:15 PDT 1996
Article: 51493 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Substance and Hot Air
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:03:30 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <31ebb96b.12403383@news.pacificnet.net> <31ef851c.968327@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31ef851c.968327@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>         Incredibly poetic. Moran posts "Substance and Hot Air" which
> summarizes and shows the difference between submitting the evidence
> instead of referring to alleged evidence. Moran posted the
> "Substance", and a whole bunch of people sign on to post examples of
> the "Hot Air".

Incredibly pathetic you mean, Moran, that you must resort to stroking your
ego, due to the deafing silence in response to your lame-brained rantings,
in such a self-promoting manner.

Your (sick) ego knows no bounds. Neither does your chutzpah.  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 19 23:04:49 PDT 1996
Article: 51533 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German hegemony over Europe through the European Union
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:40:32 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 107
Message-ID: 
References:  <4sb1gt$kun@news.enter.net>
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In article <4sb1gt$kun@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
> >  In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> >  >If you claim he built a gas chamber, tell us where it is.
> 
> >  Why don't you ask him yourself? It was actually himself that claimed so.
> >  If he had made all sorts of execution equipment, it would be likely  
> >  that he has constructed or at least maintained gaschambers too.
> 
> That's been done.  Leutcher has never built a gas chamber.  Leucther 
> never "maintained" a gas chamber.  When he gave his credentials to a judge, 
> the judge rules that he did not even have a "reasonable pretension" to give
> his opinion as an engineer.

Mr. Kreiberg, your suppositions are without any merit whatsover, as can be
seen by the following:

"After the dissemination of Leuchter's report, yet another blow was
delivered to his reputation as America's leading expert on gas execution
chambers. Despite his claims to the contrary, it appears that he had no
actual experiance with their building or installation. His claims to have
advised states on this execution methodology were denied by officials from
the very states which he said he had worked. According to Leuchter's
testimony at the Zundel trial, the Department of Correction in North
Carolina, a state that permits gas chamber executions, consulted with him
regarding the functioning of its gas chamber. In the _Leuchter Report_ he
reiterated his claim to have been a consultant to North Carolina. Gary
Dixon, the warden of the Central Prison in Raliegh, North Carolina, where
the gas chamber is located, contradicted Leuchter's claims. According to
Dixon the former warden 'vaguely recalled' that he had received a
telephone call from Leuchter trying to sell the prison a lethl injection
machine. Dixon denied Leuchter's contention that he had consulted with
North Carolina prison officials on gas-chamber matters: 'Our records do
not support that Mr. Leuchter performed either consultation or any service
during installation of our execution chamber.'

"There were, in fact, six states in the United States at the time of the
publication of Leuchter's report that permitted executions by gas
chambers: Arizona, California, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, and
Missouri used to permit executions by gas, but recently switched to lethal
injection. [California has now as well, as of 1996.] Representatives of
each of these states provided crucial information on Leuchter's
connections with them. Despite Leuchter's claim to the contrary, according
to these officials, he had not advised them on executions. A spokeman for
Mississippi, Ken Jones, stated that while Leuchter had visited
Mississippi's execution facility and commented on it, the visit had been
initiated at Leuchter's request. Moreover, the state had not entered into
'any financial agreement' with him. According to Shelly Z. Shapiro, the
head of a Holocaust education center in Albany, New York, who coordinated
an investigated into Leuchter's background, he had not worked for either
Arizona or Maryland.

"...The credibility of Leuchter's report was founded on his expertise in
building gas chambers. Missouri was the only state Leuchter had actually
advised on gas execution chambers. The closet his company had apparently
come to building one was a proposed blueprint it prepared for refurbishing
the state penitentiary. He submitted a plan that was never used because
the state switched to lethal injection for executions.

"...In April 1990 Shelly Shapiro, director of a Holocaust education
center--Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice--and Beate
Klarsfeld filed a complaint with the Massachusetts Board of Registration
of Engineers in Boston about Leuchter's erroneous claim to be an engineer
and his use of this designation fo 'mislead the public' about gas
chambers. The commonwealth investigated and found sufficient grounds to
charge him with 'illegally' practising or 'offer[ing]' to practise
engineering. In June 1991, two weeks before he was to go on trial for
practising without a licence, Leuchter signed a consent agreement with the
commonwealth admitting that he was 'not and never had been' a professional
engineer and had fraudulently presented himself to Massachusetts, New
Jersey, Alambama, and other states as an engineer with the ability to
consult on matters concerning 'execution technology.' In addition he
acknowledged that although he was not an engineer and had never taken an
engineering licensing test, he had produced reports, including the
'_Alleged Execution Gas Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek_,
containing my engineering opinions.' He agreed to 'cease and desists'
presenting himself as an engineer and issuing any reports, including the
one on Auschwitz, in which he provided engineering opinions.

Source: _Denying the Holocaust_, pp.170-173.

Clearly, according the above, Fred Leuchter is not, nor ever was,
qualified to advise about execution gas chambers and, by his own
admission, about the homicidal gas chambers used by the Nazis in the
Holocaust. He is, in fact, a self-admitted fraud on the subject. 

The question to you then, Mr. Kreiberg, is WHY do you continue hold up
this fraud Leuchter as an authority on ANYTHING related to the homicidal
gas chambers at Auschwitz? 

Do you perhaps seek solace in beating dead horses? 


Mark


posted/e-mailed to Mr. Keren, Mr. Edeiken, and Mr. Kreiberg.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 09:15:39 PDT 1996
Article: 51546 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 23:10:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References: <4rvkro$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31E42EA1.5EFA@unb.ca> <4s2len$jep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>  <4s52t0$qpu@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
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In article , walt@walt.com
(Walt the Wonder Boy) wrote:

> >In article <4s2len$jep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> the Troll gibbered:

[The Trolls gibberish snipped]

> > >There are some very deep contradictions, both within this post and between
> > >this post and others you've issued recently, Matt.  I wonder if you could
> > >take the time to explain to us all here just how you can ridicule people
> > >for believing "crap like bible stories", while you yourself use the
> > >saidsame crap to establish indefensible theses like "the Jews invented
> > >genocide."
> > 
> > >I eagerly await your response.
> > 
> > Faked names which have no email address but who insist upon sending
> > email despite my protestations get no response other than this.  
> 
> You incapacity to respond truly astounds me.  I'll take your evasion as an
> admission of ineptitude.  Thank you for your very clear reply.

See, I told you he opens his "pie-hole" so he can stick his feet in. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 12:21:41 PDT 1996
Article: 51651 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.akorn.net!news.his.com!news.walltech.com!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!ultra.sonic.net!miwok!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Substance and Hot Air
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:25:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <31ebb96b.12403383@news.pacificnet.net> <31ef851c.968327@news.pacificnet.net> 
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In article <31ef851c.968327@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>         Incredibly poetic. Moran posts "Substance and Hot Air" which
> summarizes and shows the difference between submitting the evidence
> instead of referring to alleged evidence. Moran posted the
> "Substance", and a whole bunch of people sign on to post examples of
> the "Hot Air".

Incredibly pathetic you mean. Moran, that you must resort to stroking your
ego, due to the deafening silence in contempt of your lame-brained rantings,
in such a boorish and self-promoting manner is laughable in the extreme.

Your (sick) ego knows no bounds. Neither does your chutzpah.  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 12:21:42 PDT 1996
Article: 51658 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Post your forensic studies here
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:24:32 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: <4seelj$ff@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4shh5p$42d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31ed04d0.6558154@news.pacificnet.net> <31ef84db.903406@news.pacificnet.net> <4solbh$2tr@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <31f0cdc4.577042@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31f0cdc4.577042@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

[snip]

> Okay, in this thread we have righteous dose of what Mr.Green has
> to say and what Moran has to say. Anything from here on out will be
> repeats.

All Moran ever does is repeat himself or others. Badly.

[snip]

> Interesting advice. Seeing how we are in deep doo doo at this
> time globally. Some wisdom from the past is good, some lessons are
> what not to do.

The only person in "deep doo doo at this time" is Moran. But then he has
always been in deep doo doo in regards to his rabid anti-Semitism,
malicious lies, and rampant stupidities.  

> Deuteronomy? Isn't that one of the books that glorifies the
> Hebrew slaughter of men, women and child - "young and old, none
> remaining"?

QED.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 13:06:52 PDT 1996
Article: 78558 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:22:06 -0700
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 16:02:27 PDT 1996
Article: 51691 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:52:09 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 67
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References:  <4sna8e$jqa@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4sna8e$jqa@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> Although I read about this subject when I was very young, and my tender
> reading had a large influence on my subsequent reading and intellectual
> development, I never had any doubts about the standard version of events
> until I was nearly 30.

And what, specifically, caused you to doubt the standard version of events? 

> By that time my personality was pretty much set.  So, too, was my interest
> in Jewish, Russian, Hungarian, and Polish cultural and philosophical
> literature, so too my Germanophilia.  Understand that my opinions,
> sympathies, interests, and thinking evolved without any reference to
> Holocaust skepticism at all.

In other words, intellectual rigidity set in?

> Therefore, that I have been skeptical about this topic for over 10 years,
> and have found -- via this board -- an opportunity to express myself on
> the topic, doesn't change at all my perception of Germans, Jews, or other
> Eastern Europeans, or my thinking, judgments, or whatever.

Uh huh. But then, who's to say you haven't had historically (not to
mention socially) unacceptable views to begin with? Nothing you've said in
a.r. would _clearly_ indicate otherwise. When you don't waffle, evade, or
contradict yourself, you spout some not very mainstream ideas with very
little, if any, support from the historical evidence.... 

In other words, you behave like a denier in substituting rhetoric and
dogmatism (all under the canard of "skepticism") for clear thinking and
careful examination of the historical evidence. 

> As a result I feel free to be skeptical as the information leads me.  

Even when it leads you to intellectual dishonesty and giving support to
proven  liars, bigots, anti-Semites, and Holocaust deniers? And you think
this will _not_ effect how people come to look at you and your
"skepticism?" 

What hubris. Simply amazing. 

> I have nothing to lose or change in my personal makeup or outlook.  

Obviously, then, your self-respect and intellectual hononesty must be kept
apart from your "personal makeup or outlook?" 

> I expect no final answers here, but what I do find is intellectual
stimulation 
> for further reading and thinking.  Who knows?  Maybe I am not the only one to
> benefit.

Uh huh. Needless to say, I'm not very impressed with your rationalizations.

Let me repeat myself: "Methinks thou speaketh with forked tongue...."

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 17:34:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51710 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:17:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References:  <4sn56r$gr4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>   
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> Mr. Allen, these items photographed on the roof of L.1 are skinny. At a
> rough approximation, the left two items are twice as tall as they are
> wide.  The right items is fainter and blurrier, and looks about four
> times as tall as wide, but it's difficult to say for sure.
> 
> I helped a friend move recently, and we used a lot of boxes, but I don't
> recall seeing a single one that was taller than it was wide.  Much less
> twice as tall.  Such boxes would be awkward to move, difficult to pack,
> and even more difficult to unpack.
> 
> You say these items were boxes of roofing material.  One quick, simple
> question:  why would boxes of roofing material be so tall?
> 
>
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns.jpg
>
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail.jpg

Here's another one for Mr. Allen: The damp proofing material used in the
L.Kellers was bituminous felt (cf. _Technique_, p.202).

According to the _Larouse Dictionary of Science and Technology_, p.112:

bituminous felt (build) A manufactured material incorporating asbestos,
flax, or other fibres, and bitumen, generally about 1/8 in (3mm) thick. It
is produced in rolls, impervous to water, and is largely used for roof
coverings.

So where are these _rolls_ of "roofing material," Mr. Allen? I don't see
_rolls_ of tar paper on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen. Do you? 

(BTW, such rolls are generally stored and transported on wooden pallets-
not in boxes.) 


Mark


posted/e-mailed to Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Allen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 18:48:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51717 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 23:05:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References: <4rvkro$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>  <4s4jie$pon@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , walt@walt.com
(Walt the Wonder Boy) wrote:

[the Troll's drivel snipped]

> Well, that's saying just about less than anything, isn't it Matt?
> 
> If you're not asserting anything about events, why even open your pie-hole?

To stick his feet in? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 21:46:06 PDT 1996
Article: 51741 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!decwrl!brighton.openmarket.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:17:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <4sgogt$rmd@arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> <4sh9hp$n9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sj9ao$1q8@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sj9ao$1q8@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article <4sh9hp$n9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> Ehrlich606  wrote:
> 
> >Thank you, gentlemen, for confirming to me that the coughing fits were a
> >fake detail.  You have also confirmed that the *blue bodies* is another
> >fake detail.  Nevertheless, I must insist the Zyklon was mauve.
> 
> That's intellectually dishonest Mr. Ehrlich and you know it.

Of _course_ he knows it. It's just that he's scraping the bottom of the
(intellectual) barrel and can't come up with anything else to toss out.

Nothing quite like declaring "victory" while "advancing to the rear."

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 21:46:07 PDT 1996
Article: 51747 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-feed.iguide.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:49:33 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 258
Message-ID: 
References: <4se1cr$5jn@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4skv72$ii6@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4smuvt$52o@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4smuvt$52o@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article <4skv72$ii6@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> Ehrlich606  wrote:
> 

[snip]

> >>>>And while we are on the subject, I would like someone to tell me more
> >>>>about the Dachau gas chamber.  Was it designed as a CO or Zyklon
> >>>>chamber? If the latter, perhaps the construction far enough along for 
> >>>>useful comparisons to the A-B chambers. Or perhaps was it designed in 
> >>>>some other way for some other gases.
> 
> >>>I don't know what it was designed for. I understand that it was to be
> >>>used for experimentation with combat gases at one point.  Perhaps, Mr.
> >>>Van Alstine or Dr. Keren can help here.
> 
> [further question directed to Mr. Van Alstine and Dr. Keren deleted as I
> cannot address this issue.]

>From  _Nazi Mass Murder_ [1], pp. 202-204:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Building X at Dachau: A Special Case

It has not yet been conclusively proved that killings by poison gas took
place at the Dachau concentration camp. But the following facts have been
established:

Dr. Sigmund Rascher, an air-force doctor who later joined the SS, carried
out medical experiments on human beings at Dachau. On 9 August 1942 he
wrote to Heinrich Himmler on the subject: ³As you know, the same
facilities have been built at the Dachau concentration camp as at Linz.
Because the convoys of invalids end up, one way or another, in the
chambers that are intended for them, I am asking the following question:
In these chambers, on people who are destined for them in any case, would
it not be possible to test the efficiency of our combat gases? So far, all
we have are [the results of]  tests made on animals, or reports on
accidents that occurred during manufacture. Because of this paragraph, I
am sending my letter marked ŒSecret.¹'²

For a long time the camp administration had planned to replace the
crematorium, which was in a little wooden building and had only one oven,
with a new crematorium referred to as "building X." In the explanatory
memorandum attached to the preliminary plan and dated 17 March 1942, one
reads: "As can be seen on the location plan enclosed, the spot chosen for
the construction of building X is inside the grounds of the SS camp at
Dachau, in the wooded region between the present crematorium and the
building-materials depot.... The building is almost completely surrounded
by trees; thus it is relatively isolated in the countryside. It will be
surrounded by a wall two meters high that will hide it from sight." 

Very few prisoners had occasion to see the new crematorium, which was
built next to the existing one. At first the construction work was done by
prisoners- mostly Polish priests. According to the testimony of the
foreman, a German prisoner, the prisoner workmen did all they could to
slow down completion of the building. In the spring of 1943 the four big
ovens it contained were put into operation. From then on, the only
prisoners allowed in the part of the camp near the crematorium were those
carrying the bodies of fellow-prisoners who had died in the camp, or
prisoners who worked with the railroad convoys, or members of the work
details that cremated the corpses. Occasionally, however, workmen were
sent in- electricians or heating specialists who had to make necessary
repairs. From the summer of 1944 onward, a disinfestation detail worked in
the crematorium's four disinfesting rooms.

As in the other camps, the need to keep secret the construction of the
crematoria and gas chambers also posed problems at Dachau. Before the end
of the war Dr. Rascher was himself condemned to death, for child
substitution. While awaiting execution, he was imprisoned in the bunker at
Dachau, the very camp in which he had formerly worked as a physician.
During his stay in the bunker he told a fellow-prisoner, a British officer
named S. Payne-Best, about the difficulties encountered by the SS in
camouflaging the gas chamber and concealing the gassings.

There is much additional proof of the Dachau gas chamber's existence. On 3
May 1945, after the liberation of the camp, an American war correspondent
took moving pictures in Dachau that show in detail the inside rooms of the
crematorium, the room called the morgue, the room with the four crematory
ovens, and finally the gas chamber. This last was a windowless room; metal
strips pierced with holes had been set into the concrete ceiling; on one
of the iron doors was the inscription: ³Showers." On the left side of the
building were four little disinfestation rooms, also closed with iron
doors, which bore the inscription, under a death's-head: " Attention! Gas!
Danger of Death. Do Not Open." 

The American military authorities speedily began a series of proceedings
against National Socialist criminals. As early as 15 November 1945, forty
SS men accused of having committed crimes at the Dachau camp were brought
before a U.S. military court. The investigators had a report from a French
military mission, entitled "Chemical Warfare," which had been drawn up in
May and included a description of the premises. 

On its side, the U.S. Office of Strategic Services had prepared, with the
collaboration of the surviving prisoners, an overall report on living
conditions in the Dachau camp. The gas chamber was described under the
heading "Executions.

But during the trial there was only one witness, a Czech physician
assigned to care for the prisoners, Dr. Frantisek Blaha, who declared that
experimental gassings had taken place in the Dachau gas chamber. He said
that Dr. Rascher, for whom he had had to do autopsies, had  once taken him
to the crematorium sometime in 1944. Inside the gas chamber, which Rascher
himself did not want to enter, Dr. Blaha had to examine people who had
been the subjects of an experiment. The first time Dr. Blaha testified, on
3 May 1945 at Dachau during the pretrial hearings, he said that he had
seen seven people in the gas chamber: two who were dead, two who had lost
consciousness, and three who were sitting normally. Then in November,
during the trial, he talked about eight or ten people, three of whom were
still alive. In January 1946, called as a witness before the International
Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, he broadened his testimony further by
saying: "Later, many prisoners were killed in this way.²

Beyond these indications, there is no documentation about what happened in
the gas chamber at Dachau. Visitors to the commemorative monument erected
in 1964 and 1965 on the site of the former camp are warned that it has not
been proved that the gas chamber was ever used.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the particular homicidal agent(s) possibly used in gas chamber at
Dachau, it was likely, considering the descriptions of the "euthanasia"
faciities at Brandenburg and elsewhere, that carbon monoxide gas was used:

"The gas chamber at the extermination facility at Brandenburg was
described in the following terms-. 'During its installation the
extermination room had been disguised as an inhalation room. The walls had
been tiled. Later, shower heads were affixed to the ceiling to add to the
camouflage. False pipes led to the shower heads. A pipe ran along the
walls, about 10 centimeters from the floor, which was connected to a
bottle of gas. This pipe was pierced with a number of small holes through
which the gas escaped into the room. The gas canisters were placed in an
anteroom and hidden from sight.' 

"As soon as the victims entered the gas chamber, the doors were
hermetically seated. A physician turned on the gas tap, letting the carbon
monoxide gas flow for ten to twenty minutes. According to the express
instructions of Dr. Brandt and Brack, only physicians were allowed to
manipulate the tap, because the powers of extermination issued by Hitler
on 1 September 1939 had been given to them alone. (_Nazi Mass Murder_,
pp.27-28.)

Note the similarities: 

Brandenburg: "A pipe ran along the walls, about 10 centimeters from the
floor, which was connected to a bottle of gas. This pipe was pierced with
a number of small holes through which the gas escaped into the room."

Dachau: "metal strips pierced with holes had been set into the concrete
ceiling..."

Brandenburg: "'During its installation the extermination room had been
disguised as an inhalation room. The walls had been tiled. Later, shower
heads were affixed to the ceiling to add to the camouflage. False pipes
led to the shower heads."

Dachau: "...on one of the iron doors [of the gas chamber] was the
inscription: ³Showers."

However, there are also the recollections of Dr. Larson (Major, U.S. Army;
War Crimes Team 6823 and forensic pathologist) of Dachau to contend with:

"The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another.
However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to those
prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with
them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however,
they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium where
the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then
ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the building, guards dropped
in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide gas out and remove the
bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened
to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly
and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion, were incorrigibles.
But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally
examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical facilities
were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was
imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or
function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi
called them 'mercy killings' because there was no hope of them getting
well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and extermination
was the answer." (_Crime Doctor_ [2], p.61.)

Given the characteristics of both carbon monoxide and Zyklon B  (i.e.
non-persistance and ease of ventilation from the gas chamber) it is quite
possible that _both_ were used at Dachau. The presence of Zyklon at
Dachau, considering that there were four _disinfestation_ gas chambers_ in
"building X," is likely. (It is also _possible_ that victims killed with
Zyklon may have been killed in the disinfestation gas chambers.) 

As to the possiblity of Zyklon being used for homicidal purposes at
Dachau, it should be noted that small scale homicidal use (as compared to
Auschwit) of Zyklon at other _concentration_ camps took place: Mauthausen
(March 1942 to April 1945); Gusen (April 1945); Sachenhausen (March 1943
to February 1945); Ravensbru"ck (February 1945 to April 1945); Stutthof
(June 1944 to November 1944); and Neuengamme (September 1942 and November
1942). (cf. _Nazi Mass Murder_. pp.177-196.) 

As to the _possible_ experiments by Rascher with combat gases they could
have been in regards to several classes of chemical warfare agents:
blistering agents (mustard gas), blood agents (phosgene gas), and nerve
agents (Sarin, Soman, Tabun). All classes of agents, however, _are_
persistant to varying degrees (nerve agents expecially so) and require
extensive decontamination and personal protection measures (again, nerve
agents especially so).

A superficial comparison of "building X" to, say, Krema II at Auschwitz
II-Birkenau quickly reveals the enourmous disparities as a killing
facility between them. Blaha, in his testimony before the International
Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, claimed that "many prisoners were killed."
(How many is "many?" Tens? Hundreds? Thousands?) Rascher, in his infamous
memo regarding testing combat gases wrote: "...the same facilities have
been built at the Dachau concentration camp as at Linz." Hartheim Castle
(e.g. Linz) from 1940 to 1941 there were 18,269 people killed (cf. _Nazi
Mass Murder_, p.37). In 1942 there were 3,166 inmates from Dachau killed
at Hartheim Castle (cf. _Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, p.342). If
"building X" at Dachau were to have been primarily used as a killing
facility (which the historical evidence does not indicate) one could
hypothesize that its maximum capacity could then be similar to Hartheim
Castle.

Krema II at Auschwitz II-Birkenau, in comparison, was truly a killing
facility orders of magnitude greater. From March 15, 1943 to November 27,
1944, on the order of 400,000 victims were killed in the gas chamber of
Krema II. (cf. _Technique_, p.183.) In all, almost 20% of _all_ Jewish
victims of the Holocaust were murdered at Auschwitz II-Birkenau. 

Given that, at best, only a handfull (tens? hundreds?) of inmates of
Dachau were likely murdered in the gas chamber of "building X," there is
no comparison to the gas chambers (i.e. Krema II) at Auschwitz
II-Birkenau. 

Mark


1. _Nazi mass murder: a documentary history of the use of poison gas /
edited by Eugen Kogon, Herman Langbein, and Albert Ru"kerl ; editor's
notes and forward to the English language edition by Pierre Serge Choumoff
; translated by Mary Scott and Caroline Lloyd-Morris. ISBN 0-300-05441-6

2. 78-16403: McCallum, John Dennis, 1924-  Crime Doctor : Dr. Charles P.
Larson, world's foremost medical-detective, reports from his crime file 
Mercer Island, Wash. : Writing Works, c1978.  x, 262 p. : ill. ; 22 cm.
LC CALL NUMBER: RA1025.L37 M3 1978



posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 20 23:22:44 PDT 1996
Article: 51771 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 23:00:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 90
Message-ID: 
References: <31EFE4CB.3518@gryn.org> <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> I do not see how this follows.  The kieselguhr or ERCO or whatever
> probably acquires the HCN when that gas is in a liquid state (I don't know
> the method, but I am rather sure of this).  Then it is sealed in a tin. 
> The pellets will therefore be wet with condensed HCN.  When the tin is
> opened, they will immediately begin to dry out and gas out.  Is this not
> right?
> 
> Second, how are the pellets accumulating moisture exactly?  Third, it has
> already been established that there were no added agents.  So why is this
> relevant at all?

Risking a (probably well-deserved) scolding by Mr. Green };-> perhaps we
could step back and (again) examine the properties of silica gel?

According to _The Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_ (2nd ed.):

"...Dehydrated silica gel is used commercially as an absorbent in the
recovery of solvents, also for drying air, dehydrating gases, refining
mineral oils, for filtration and as a support for various catalysts. Such
a gel is in the form of hard granules, chemically and physically almost
inert but highly hygroscopic. After use it can be regenrated by heat. In
the laberatory it is used in the preperation of chromotographic columns.

"Cobalt(II) compounds are often incorporated in tke gel. When the gel has
absorbed a fair amount of moisture it will turn pink but will revert to
blue on heating. 

Hmm. "Highly hygroscopic" and "Cobalt(II) compounds are often incorporated."

According to Webster's: 

"hygroscopic adj. 1 a) attracting or absorbing moisture from the air b)
changed or altered by the absorbtion of moisture 2 of or according to a
hygroscope"

Of the Cobalt(II) compounds, it looks like two are interesting in regards
to hygroscopicity: cobalt bromide and cobolt chloride. 

According the _McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical Terms_: 

"cobaltous bromide C0Br2*6H2O Red-violet crystals with a melting point of
47-48 C; soluble in water, alcohol, and ether; used in hygrometers. Also
known as cobalt bromide."

"cobaltous chloride CoCl2 or CoCl2*6H2O A compound whose anhydrous form
consists of blue crystals and sublimes when heated, and whose hydrated
form consists of red crystals and melts at 86.8 C; both forms are used as
an absorbent for ammonia in dyes and as a catalyst. Also known as cobalt
chloride.

Hmm. It appears (and please, Mr. Green, feel free to correct me!) that it
is cobalt chloride that is added to silica gel as a hygroscopic indicator.
An indicator that specifically adsorbs H20 in changing from blue to pink.
(Cobalt it should be pointed out, adsorbs hydrogen strongly.) 

Thus it would appear that the presence (or absence) of HCN in the silica
gel (indicating) would not cause it to change colors. The presence of H20
would. Furthermore, given that the Zyklon B was "sealed in a tin," and
therefore not exposed to atmospheric moisture (H20), it would follow that
the indicator would be in its anhydrous state and therefore would be blue.

That is, of course, if the silica gel used as the carrier for Zyklon B
actually had a hygroscopic indicator. However, taking into account all the
hubbub regarding eyewitness accounts relating to Zyklon B being blue
and/or "mauve" it could indeed be argued that it had such a hygroscopic
indicator. Why else would the color "change" after it was exposed to
moisture in the air? (Or in the homicidal gas chambers.) 

BTW, Ehrlich606, guess what the MSDS for silica gel (indicating) has to
say about its color and appearence?  

"APPEARANCE & ODOR:  ODORLESS, BLUE CRYSTALS."

http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/S/SILICA%20GEL,%20INDICATING


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 09:07:34 PDT 1996
Article: 51792 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:24:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 93
Message-ID: 
References: <31EFE4CB.3518@gryn.org> <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> I do not see how this follows.  The kieselguhr or ERCO or whatever
> probably acquires the HCN when that gas is in a liquid state (I don't know
> the method, but I am rather sure of this).  Then it is sealed in a tin. 
> The pellets will therefore be wet with condensed HCN.  When the tin is
> opened, they will immediately begin to dry out and gas out.  Is this not
> right?
> 
> Second, how are the pellets accumulating moisture exactly?  Third, it has
> already been established that there were no added agents.  So why is this
> relevant at all?

Risking a (probably well-deserved) scolding by Mr. Green };-> perhaps we
could step back and (again) examine the properties of silica gel?

According to _The Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_ (2nd ed.):

"...Dehydrated silica gel is used commercially as an absorbent in the
recovery of solvents, also for drying air, dehydrating gases, refining
mineral oils, for filtration and as a support for various catalysts. Such
a gel is in the form of hard granules, chemically and physically almost
inert but highly hygroscopic. After use it can be regenerated by heat. In
the laboratory it is used in the preparation of chromotographic columns.

"Cobalt(II) compounds are often incorporated in the gel. When the gel has
absorbed a fair amount of moisture it will turn pink but will revert to
blue on heating. 

Hmm. "Highly hygroscopic" and "Cobalt(II) compounds are often incorporated."

According to Webster's: 

"hygroscopic adj. 1 a) attracting or absorbing moisture from the air b)
changed or altered by the absorbtion of moisture 2 of or according to a
hygroscope"

Of the Cobalt(II) compounds, it looks like two are interesting in regards
to hygroscopicity: cobalt bromide and cobolt chloride. 

According the _McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical Terms_: 

"cobaltous bromide CoBr2*6H2O Red-violet crystals with a melting point of
47-48 C; soluble in water, alcohol, and ether; used in hygrometers. Also
known as cobalt bromide."

"cobaltous chloride CoCl2 or CoCl2*6H2O A compound whose anhydrous form
consists of blue crystals and sublimes when heated, and whose hydrated
form consists of red crystals and melts at 86.8 C; both forms are used as
an absorbent for ammonia in dyes and as a catalyst. Also known as cobalt
chloride.

Hmm. It appears (and please, Mr. Green, feel free to correct me!) that it
is cobalt chloride that is added to silica gel as a hygroscopic indicator.
An indicator that specifically adsorbs H20 in changing from blue to pink.
(Cobalt it should be pointed out, adsorbs hydrogen strongly.) 

Thus it would appear that the presence (or absence) of HCN in the silica
gel (indicating) would not cause it to change colors. The presence of H20
would. Furthermore, given that the Zyklon B was "sealed in a tin," and
therefore not exposed to atmospheric moisture (H20), it would follow that
the hygroscopic indicator would be in its anhydrous state and therefore
would be blue.

That is, of course, if the silica gel used as the carrier for Zyklon B
actually had a hygroscopic indicator. However, taking into account all the
hubbub regarding eyewitness accounts relating to Zyklon B being blue
and/or "mauve" it could indeed be argued that it had such a hygroscopic
indicator. Why else would the color "change" after it was exposed to
moisture in the air? (Or in the homicidal gas chambers.) 

BTW, Ehrlich606, guess what the MSDS for silica gel (indicating) has to
say about its color and appearence?  

"APPEARANCE & ODOR:  ODORLESS, BLUE CRYSTALS."

http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/S/SILICA%20GEL,%20INDICATING


Mark

posted/e-mailed to Mr. Green.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 09:07:35 PDT 1996
Article: 51800 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Fascist Organisation Denies Holocaust
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:59:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <4sjtqa$iag@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4sllsh$n0g@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <4smcoo$7th@metroux.metrobbs.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

> In article <4smcoo$7th@metroux.metrobbs.com>, goth@big10.metrobbs.com wrote:
> 
> 
> >     A lot of people believe in Identity Christianity. It is the truth. 
> > Whites are God's chosen people (Israelites) not the Jews who falsely 
> > claim to be. Exposing the hoax of the holocaust is important in teaching 
> > the truth of Identity. In fact the holocaust is the first thing leftists 
> > talk about when any one fails to grovel before the power of the Jews.
>  
> A lot of people believe in space aliens. It is the truth. Space aliens are
> God's chosen people, not the Whites who falsely claim to be.
>  
> BWAHAHAHAH.

ROTFL! 

Sarah, you're _such_ a funny person. Can't wait 'till I tell Elvis this
one! ;-) 

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 13:05:57 PDT 1996
Article: 51846 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 23:44:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4quqbi$dv6@Vir.com>  <31E26F1B.5712@rio.com> <837211161snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> Alexander Baron  writes:
> 
> # No Chuck, the "gas chamber" you were shown was a delousing 
> # chamber.
> 
> There was a homicidal gas chamber in Dachau, period. The letter
> sent by Dr. Rascher to Himmler mentions that it is being built,
> and suggests to use it to test "combat gases" on humans. A jpeg
> file of this letter is on the web, BTW,
> 
> You can keep repeating your rubbish for 50 more years. It
> won't change the facts, though.

Not to mention that "building X" contained _four_ small disinfestation
rooms _and_ a larger gas chamber that bore a striking resemblence to those
used in the T4 program. It was in the gas chamber, and _not_ the
disinfestation rooms, that Blaha said he saw gassing victims in. It was
also the gas chamber that Rascher told Payne-Best about in regards to the
difficulties of camouflaging it and concealing the gassings that took
place there. (cf. _Nazi Mass Murder_, pp.202-204.) 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 19:15:31 PDT 1996
Article: 51942 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: An amazing, and unlikely claim
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 23:21:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net> <4sklen$49e@hermes.oanet.com> <31ef37f4.2891746@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4sp5ob$f1s@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4sq3it$dhj@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:36735 alt.politics.nationalism.white:25853 alt.revisionism:51942 alt.skinheads:32437

In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel
Rosenberg) wrote:

> In article <4sq3it$dhj@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
the Troll gibbered:

> 
> >You publically post that you will take action and that you do take
> >action against anyone who contacts any member of my family or me in any
> >derogatory manner save via this newsgroup.  
> 
> Giwer has a family?
> 
> Nah.

You forgot the possibility of asexual reproduction.... 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 21:09:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51965 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 14:05:33 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article
,
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
>      > > So why is this relevant at all?
>      > 
>      > If you can prove that no indicator was present, it's not relevant.
>      
>      Indeed. If it can be shown that the silica gel used as the carrier in
>      Zyklon B contained no hygroscopic indicator, then the issue of its color
>      becomes much simpler given that prussic acid has a slightly bluish
color. 
>      
> HCN itself is usually described as being clear with a slight bluish tint.
> Large particles of silica gel without indicator are grayish, but somewhat
> blue in the light.
> 
> My surmise is that an indicator was present, but I can't prove it _yet_.

Perhaps there is a reference to it in the Zyklon patent or Dr. Peters's
book? Also, it might be worth thinking about _why_ a hygroscopic indicator
would be added. What benifit(s) would it bring? (Could it help delay HCN
hydrolyzation? A visual indicator of HCN toxicity?) What problems might it
pose in regards to HCN adsorbtion and evaporation?  

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 21:09:26 PDT 1996
Article: 51969 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:20:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 301
Message-ID: 
References: <4sn94p$38p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4st378$sdf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4st378$sdf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4sn94p$38p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com the
Troll > gibbers:
 
[snip]

> >What is a "suffocating" cough?  Please be specific in your answer.

How about a choking and/or wheezing cough due to constriction of the
airways and mild respitory paralysis? 

> >The closest I can come to that kind of description is from pneumonia which
> >is not in the symptoms listed by you. It is the kind that keeps trying
> >to bring up mucous from the lungs but can not.  

"The symptoms of pneumonia typically include fever, chills, and shortness
of breath, as well as a cough with yellow-green phlegm or occasionally
blood. Chest pain with breathing can also be a symptom of pneumonia, which
occurs as a result of inflammation of the membrane lining the lungs and
chest cavity."

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/healthwise/0580.html

[snip]

> >>"In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to
> >>red skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is 
> >>involved, the skin color may be bluish...."
> >
> >>Do you suppose 1,000-2,000 victims locked in a gas chamber that was
> >>"very hot" and "so suffocating as to be unbearable" (cf. _Technique_, 
> >>p.489), and who trampled and fought against each other in their terror 
> >>to get away from the HCN gas, might cause this? 
> >
> >What would a pharmacists poetic description mean?  

It was Henryk Tauber's description taken from his deposition. Henryk
Tauber was a Sonderkommando at Auschwitz. This description was in regards
to the gas chamber of Krema II. 

But the Troll (obviously) _didn't_ know that. 

> >If he is correct in some manner then the room is filled with CO2 and 
> >they are dying already and, according to AG, blocking the influx of 
> >the lighter HCN.  Of course he did not directly state that, rather 
> >it is the clear meaning of his gas weights having an impact on the 
> >discussion. 

What would the Troll's ineptitude with reading, chemistry, and gas laws
mean? (Besides his general and profound ignorance, of course.)
 
> >>> ...So N. is wrong about this, too....  
> >
> >>In your opinion.
> >
> >>> The Zyklon is whatever color you insist.
> >
> >>No, Zyklon B is whatever it color it was. 
> >
> >>BTW, Ehrlich606, do you suppose it is possible that Nyiszli saw _spent_
> >>pellets of Zyklon B as assumed that their color was same as when it was
> >>when it was administered? 
> >
> > You mean wood pulp is mauve?  What strange trees they have.  I
> > know, they imported them from the Amazon just for ZB. 

More Trollish ignorance. The carrier for Zyklon B was Erco (silica gel).
NI-9912 specifically lists Erco as one of the three carriers for Zyklon.
Photos of Zyklon B show that it was manufactured in the form of
crystal-like granules. Eyewitness accounts of its use at Auschwitz
described it as "crystals" or "granules" etc. and not wood fiber disks. 

But the Troll (obviously) _didn't_ know that either. Even though _he_
posted such (without realizing, evidently) in a previous rant of his! 

> It is also worth pointing out, I believe, that a gas that causes the cells
> to cease metabolizing oxygen is going to cause some reflexive gasping for
> air.  But that would be fairly far along in the dying process I should
> think, just before unconsciousness.  And in any case it is not a hacking
> or suffocating cough.

_Early_ symptoms of HCN poisoning include constriction of the throat along
with increased respiration _and_ palpitations and respiratory difficulty. 

http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu/txt/fairs/15547
http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm) 

And you don't suppose such might cause people to have a "suffocating cough?"

And, of course, acute HCN poisoning- the kind often found in homicidal gas
chambers -is generally immediately fatal. Hardly gives one time to cough
at all.... 

> Similarly, the usual coloration for cyanide poisoning is pink or red. 
> *If* and *may* there be a lack of oxygen, then blue.  That's two
> conditions.  And more importantly there is no proof that such conditions
> obtained....

And you've certainly offered no _proof_ that such conditions _weren't_
obtained. Again, according to the DuPont MSDS:

"In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to
red skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is 
involved, the skin color may be bluish...."

But you knew that. 

Are you saying, Ehrlich606, that victims _weren"t_ subject to "physical
injury or lack of oxygen" after it is evident that there is evidence for
grounds of such? 

Amazing. 

> ...Therefore we can reasonably expect the victims of HCN poisoning
> to be pink or red.  

> BTW, everyone has seen the photos of Himmler and Goering, who also 
> died of cyanide poisoning. They look normal to me, and no one has 
> ever described them as blue...

You mean B/W photos? Like the B/W photo of Zyklon B that says "small blue
pelllets (Erco) or <>"? Amazing how you can discriminate color
in some B/W photos and not others... Even when the color is in the
caption. 

> ...although I seem to recall someone saying that Goering looked
*concrete.*  I 
> await the elucidation that states that concrete is sometimes blue, under 
> certain conditions, and therefore these certain conditions must have obtained.

You "recall someone saying?" Uh huh. And why should _your_ "recollection"
be any better than, say, Nyiszli's? 

> The foregoing therefore must remain unchanged.  

Ah, I see you've graduated to the Al Baron "Becasuse I Say So" school of
denier rhetoric.   

> Nyiszli is wrong about the suffocating cough. 

BISS.

> Nyiszli is wrong about the blue coloration. 

BISS.

> Nyszli claims the carrier material was mauve.  

Yes, an intermediate color between blue and pink. A rather subjective
call. No to mention that _you_ don't even _know_ if he actually saw Zyklon
B _after_ it was spent (and exposed to the moisture in the air for some
time), and simply assumed it was always that color, so abscribing it when
he wrote about watching it being administered in a homicidal gassing at
Krema II. (You don't even _know_ if he was even _close_ enough to actually
discern the color!)

But you knew that.

> ...OTOH, the conventionalists have staked their hate-fighting reputations on 
>the blueness of Zyklon, so mauve must be blue. 

BISS

> Matt has fairly well exploded the cobalt theory on this
> elsewhere, i.e., blue to pink, stop for cup of coffee at mauve.

Ehrlich606, about the only thing the Troll has "exploded" lately (besides
the myth of having an IQ of 163) is the remnants of _your_ credibility. 

> Nyiszli is wrong when he says the material falls in a clump on the floor. 

Indeed. But then watching Zyklon being poured down a shaft, one may be
excused for _assuming_ it fell to the floor, yes? One would have to _know_
the details of the wire mesh introduction column, such as Tauber (or Kula)
did, to point out that a the Zyklon B was _actually_ poured into a
_moveable_ core and _lowered_ into the gas chamber. 

BTW, Nyiszli's account of the pouring of the Zyklon argues that he was in
fact watching from a distance... which in turn brings up the question of
him being able to properly discriminate the color of the Zyklon B being
poured.... 

> He is wrong about the dimensions of the undressing cellar.  

Yep. Flat wrong. Off by 4x.

> He is wrong about the dimensions of the gas chamber. 

Yep. Flat wrong. Off by 4x.

> He is wrong about the number of elevators... 

Yep. Flat wrong. Off by 4x.

And let us not _also_ forget that Nyiszli _also_ overestimated the number
of victims kille by 4x. 

An interesting pattern emerges it seems. Dr. Nyizsli, an intelligent man,
who seems so attentive to detail elsewhere, makes these obvious and gross
errors? _All_ of which are _exactly_ off by 4x?  Now what possibly could
explain this? 

An error in translation? Perhaps. Faulty memory? Perhaps. Simply bad with
numbers? Perhaps. 

But since Ehrlich606 is _so_ fond of bashing the Soviets in defense of the
Nazis, how about I play along? Could it be, perhaps, that these errors
were _intentional_? That Nyiszli, knowing that the Soviet death toll
estimates did not match up with his experiance at Auschwitz, sought some
way to hint such without taking any heat? 

How about picking a few _obvious_ and _verifiable_ things (such as Krema
dimensions, number of elevators, etc.) and _exaggerate_ them by _exactly_
the amount the Soviet death toll for Auschwitz was exaggerated by! What a
marvelously subtle idea! 

Oh, my. Playing such games like you do, Ehrlich606, _is_ fun! No wonder
you do it so much! 

>....(actually, dumbwaiters).

An electric lift that could hold, according to Presac, 10-5 corpses (20-25
according to Nyiszli) at a time is _hardly_ a "dumbwaiter." 

But you knew that. You just _had_ to blurt out your "dumbwaiters" crack.... 

> He is wrong about the pushcarts (any Russian reader should note the cognates 
> here carefully) that go into the ovens.  

According to Pressac, the "[t]rolley for transporting corspes was little
used in Krema II. It was replaced by a metal strectcher (in German
<>, corspe board) that was pushed to the back of the muffle
with the aid of iron rollers located below the bottom edge of the muffle
door. It was later used in all the Krematoriums...." (_Technique_, p.495.)


It should be pointed out that "little used" does not mean _never_ used. 
It also does not mean that said trolly didn't exist. 

And speaking of carefully noting things... Perhaps you, Ehrlich606, would
take the time to look at a photo of said "pushcart?" You _might_ notice
that said pushcart was desinged so that part _did_ enter the muffle to
insert the corspes. 

> He is wrong about the number of ovens.  

Nyiszli wrote: "The bodies were cremated in twenty minutes. Each
crematorium  worked with fifteen ovens and there were four crematoriums.
This meant that several thousand people could be cremated in a single
day..." (_Auschwitz_, p.55.) 

Now, given that Nyiszli stayed in Krema II it would hardly be suprising
that he would get the number of muffles right. (It is _obvious_ that his
mention of "fifteen ovens" is to be understood as fifteen _muffles_.) It
is also hardly suprising that he apparantly _assumed_ that Kremas IV and V
also had the same number as II and III. He isn't by any means the first to
have made such a mistake. (The Troll, for instance, makes such "mistakes"
_all_ the time. Repeaetedly.) 

Regardless, Nyiszli was quite right when he wrote that "several thousand
people could be cremated in a single day." No doubt about that. 

> He doesn't say a word about the induction columns.

Tsk tsk! Did not Nyiszli write: "...columns rose from the concrete floor
to the ceiling. They were not supporting columns, but square sheet-iron
pipes, the sides of which contained numerous perforations, like a wire
lattice." (Ibid. p.50.)

Sure sounds like those wire mesh Zyklon B introduction columns I've been
talking about off and on for months now. Don't you think, Ehrlich606? 

> He states the bodies were in severe distress and messy.  He is directly
> contradicted by Hoess.

And Nyiszli is supported by Bendal and Tauber, who described similar things. 

Interesting that the Sonderkommandos describe similar things, yes? Could
it be, perhaps, because _they_ went _into_ the gas chambers quite
regualarly, while Ho"ss did not? Could it be that Ho"ss glosses over that
part a bit, wanting to rationalize, as he obviously did, that death by
prussic acid was "painless" and "humane?" 

What a concept. 

> But we know that.

Indeed. But you seem to "forget" such possibilities rather regularly....


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 22:01:30 PDT 1996
Article: 51982 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!brighton.openmarket.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 23:11:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <31EFE4CB.3518@gryn.org> <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sr9li$8dh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sr9li$8dh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> Ehrlich606  wrote:
> 

[snip]

> >Third, it has already been established that there were no added agents.  
> 
> Who established that?  What is your source for this information?

Mr. Green, I believe (to be charitable) that Ehrlich606 has confused the
lack of the lachrymal indicator in Zyklon B used for homicidal puposes
with the hygroscopic indicator- a Cobalt(II) compound -in silica gel. 

> > So why is this relevant at all?
> 
> If you can prove that no indicator was present, it's not relevant.

Indeed. If it can be shown that the silica gel used as the carrier in
Zyklon B contained no hygroscopic indicator, then the issue of its color
becomes much simpler given that prussic acid has a slightly bluish color. 

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 22:22:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51982 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!brighton.openmarket.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 23:11:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <31EFE4CB.3518@gryn.org> <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sr9li$8dh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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In article <4sr9li$8dh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> Ehrlich606  wrote:
> 

[snip]

> >Third, it has already been established that there were no added agents.  
> 
> Who established that?  What is your source for this information?

Mr. Green, I believe (to be charitable) that Ehrlich606 has confused the
lack of the lachrymal indicator in Zyklon B used for homicidal puposes
with the hygroscopic indicator- a Cobalt(II) compound -in silica gel. 

> > So why is this relevant at all?
> 
> If you can prove that no indicator was present, it's not relevant.

Indeed. If it can be shown that the silica gel used as the carrier in
Zyklon B contained no hygroscopic indicator, then the issue of its color
becomes much simpler given that prussic acid has a slightly bluish color. 

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 23:19:07 PDT 1996
Article: 51994 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 15:26:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 71
Message-ID: 
References: <4sr9li$8dh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4st2lo$s8c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4stnvq$bqn@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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In article <4stnvq$bqn@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article <4st2lo$s8c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, 
> Ehrlich606  wrote:

[snip]

> >Obviously, in the case that we are examining we can expect a great deal of
> >humidity, and thus moisture available to be absorbed.  The problem, as I
> >see it, is that too much humidity would condense the HCN?  
> 
> What do you mean condense HCN?  HCN is a liquid.  It may cause violent
> polymerization which would be the reason for wanting an indicator in the
> first  place.  What I have in mind is that they would have tried to keep
> moisture out, but that such efforts would not always be 100% effective.

Do you mean to say that the hygrospcopic indicator may have been added as
a visual indicator of the extent of polymerization of the HCN in Zyklon B?
Or that the indicator may have inhibited polymerization? Or both? Neither?


Question: Given that pure hydrocyanic acid will polymerize over time a
stabilizer (a "negative" catalyst) was added to Zyklon B (cf. _Nazi Mass
Murder_, p.206) to retard the polymerization (and increase the shelf-life
of Zyklon B). What was this stabilizer? 

[snip]

> >I think we are talking about two different things.  I have in mind the
> >apparent formic acid agent that was added as a warning stuff (the
> >*lachrymogen*).  It has been generally conceded that most ZB that ended up
> >in the KZ system lacked this ingredient.  

No, this is not has been "generally conceded" at all. The _lack_ of a
lachrymal in Zyklon B would be _specific_ to that intended for homicidal
purposes. Zyklon B intended for disinfestation purposes would have still
have had the lachrymal. There would be no reason to _remove_ the lachrymal
used for disinfestation. In fact, doing so would _increase_ the potential
health hazards of using Zyklon B for this purpose. 

It should be kept in mind that the amount of Zyklon B used for homicidal
purposes was a fraction of that used for disinfestation purposes in the KZ
system and in the German armed forces in general.  

[snip]

> I agree that the lachrymogen was removed for (some, most, all?) of the
> zyklon-B used for murder.  As you say, the presence or absence of an
> indicator has not been established (atleast on this newsgroup as far as
> I am aware).

There are (at least) two surviving invoices for Zyklon B from DEGESCH to
Gerstein that clearly shows that the Zyklon B did not have the lachrymal
added. One shipment was made from Dessau to Auschwitz and the other from
Dessau to Orannienberg. (cf. _The "Confessions" of Kurt Gerstein_, pp.
93-94.) 


Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 21 23:19:08 PDT 1996
Article: 51996 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 13:58:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References: 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article
,
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
>> "cobaltous chloride CoCl2 or CoCl2*6H2O A compound whose anhydrous form
>> consists of blue crystals and sublimes when heated, and whose hydrated
>> form consists of red crystals and melts at 86.8 C; both forms are used as
>> an absorbent for ammonia in dyes and as a catalyst. Also known as cobalt
>> chloride.
>>      
>> Hmm. It appears (and please, Mr. Green, feel free to correct me!) 
>> that it is cobalt chloride that is added to silica gel as a 
>> hygroscopic indicator. An indicator that specifically adsorbs H20 
>> in changing from blue to pink. (Cobalt it should be pointed out,
>> adsorbs hydrogen strongly.) 
> 
> It seems like a jump to conclude that it was cobalt chloride and only
> cobalt chloride that was used.  A number of cobalt compounds should have
> similar behaviours.

Yes, there _are_ a number of cobalt(II) compounds that should have
similiar behaviors. Of the cobalt(II) compounds that I've been able to
read up on (by no means an extensive list!) it looks like only the
bromides and iodides are similar in behavior to the chlorides. Cobalt
bromide, it appears, is red and _may_ not change colors as does cobalt
chloride. I don't know about cobalt iodides. Given this I suggested cobalt
chloride _because_ it exhibits, due to its hygroscopicity, the
characteristic color change in question. Perhaps it's a jump to conclude
it _was_ the hygroscopic indicator. Perhaps not. Comments? 

However, if the behaviors of other cobalt(II) compounds _are_ similar, in
that they are hygroscopic and _do_ change colors accordingly when they
adsorb H20, then the actual cobalt compound is a matter of detail, yes?
The important point is that a cobalt(II) compound is added to silica gel
to as a hygroscopic indicator, yes?  

And if Zyklon B had such a hydroscopic indicator then it would go a long
ways in explain why Zyklon B was blue out of the can and would change
color towards pink when exposed to moisture. Wouldn't you agree? 

>> Thus it would appear that the presence (or absence) of HCN in the silica
>> gel (indicating) would not cause it to change colors. 
> 
> Also, not clear.  HCN could also act as a ligand.  

Yes, you're right of course- its not clear. Cobalt _does_ strongly adsorb
hydrogen- which makes it hygroscopic. What effect would this have in
regards to affinity for HCN vs H20 and changing colors? 

Mark

posted-emailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 02:16:30 PDT 1996
Article: 52022 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Call Me a Revisionist, But ....
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 13:38:21 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <4sr9li$8dh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4st348$sci@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4st348$sci@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> You may call me a Revisionist, but this really is not a good idea ---
> 

[Ingridrivel snipped]

> This sucks.  If I have to choose between accepting the ZOG concept, or
> embracing the conventionalist story of the Holocaust, then I will be
> forced to do the latter.  What a choice!  

Ehrlich606, that you even _percieve_ there being a "choice" speaks volumes. 

[Ingridrivel snipped]

> Ingrid, this is a very stupid idea.  Almost as stupid as calling me a
> Nazi.

Did Ingrid call you a Nazi, Ehrlich606? Or are you getting a little
hypersensitive since you have come out of the denier closet? 

[Ingridrivel snipped]

> Ingrid, you sound like you have been reading my post on the Leninist Code
> of Responding.  Either that or you have overdosed on Keren and Van
> Alstine.  This is blatantly targeting Jews. 

Spoken like a true nest-fouling toadie/lackey/yes-man. Obviously you are
taking yourself and your Leninist Code of Responding" _way_ too seriously!


[Ingridrivel snipped]

> There is no call for this and use of the ZOG concept is very, very bad. 
> Take heed. 

Indeed! But so is Holocuast denial and sucking-up to asocial pyschopathic
deviates like the Troll. Pot. Kettle. Black. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 02:16:31 PDT 1996
Article: 52034 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goering's Remarks
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 21:21:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References: <4sso1g$ede@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sso1g$ede@juliana.sprynet.com>, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

> Goering often used dour sarcasm to make a point.  It is obvious that
Speer did 
> not understand Goering's intent.  Goering was in no position to know what had 
> happened to the Jews of Hungary.

Really? And I suppose you'll next say that Go"ring was in no position to
know what had happened to Jews in general? Or anything about the Wannsee
protocols and the FInal Solution? To wit:


Eichmann, during his interrogation, discussing the Wannsee protocols:



LESS: I'm going to quote from your record of Heydrich's speech:
"Emigration has now, with the Fu"hrer's approval, been replaced by another
solution, the evacuation of the Jews to the East. The present actions,
however, must ne viewed as mere expediants, but they offer a source of
practical experiance of the utmost importance with a view to the final
solution to come." What _does_ all this mean? 

EICHMANN: Since emigration was prohibited, they were to be deported to the
East. This was the new- er -conception in behalf of which the conference
of state secretaries was called ... The new conception that Himmler
discussed with Go"ring, undoubtably in Heydrich's presence.

LESS: What is meant by "practical experiance"? 

EICHMANN: The Wannsee Conference- we called it the Conference of State
Secretaries -was held on January 20, 1942. Two months later, I was sent to
see Globocnik. It is quite possible that the killing there had already
begun.

LESS: I see. So you think "practical experiance" refers to the killing of
the Jews, which had already begun? It's true that action teams were
already at work at the time.

EICHMANN: They started in ... Of course, there was killing.



>From  _Eichmann Interrogated_, pp.90-91.


Now, jbelling, _do_ tell us again how Go"ring "was in no position to know
what had happened to the Jews of Hungary."

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 02:38:10 PDT 1996
Article: 78849 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 00:17:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 1
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 09:01:27 PDT 1996
Article: 52062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:33:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
References:  <4st0q5$rv5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4st0q5$rv5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) hoots and hollers:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >

[snip]

> >Here's another one for Mr. Allen: The damp proofing material used in the
> >L.Kellers was bituminous felt (cf. _Technique_, p.202).
> >
> >According to the _Larouse Dictionary of Science and Technology_, p.112:
> 
> Larousse!
> >
> >bituminous felt (build) A manufactured material incorporating asbestos,
> >flax, or other fibres, and bitumen, generally about 1/8 in (3mm) thick.
> It
> >is produced in rolls, impervous to water, and is largely used for roof
> >coverings.
> >
> >So where are these _rolls_ of "roofing material," Mr. Allen? I don't see
> >_rolls_ of tar paper on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen. Do you? 
> >
> 
> I do.
> 
> This is utterly amazing.  I have just consulted the photograph, on URL's
> previously provided by Jamie.  And do you know what I see?  I see three
> large rolls of bituminous felt _standing on end_ on the roof of LK I, and
> moreover, I see what appears to be a _fourth_ roll lying perpendicular to
> the nearest one.  Or perhaps it is a _wooden pallet_!
> 
> Of course, the photograph is none too clear, but I urge everyone to check
> it out.

 

Obviously, Ehrlich606, the extreme proximity of your lips to the Troll's
posterior has rendered you rather giddy. Perhaps you could regain a
modicum of your former intellegence (even for a only moment ot two) if you
stepped back and took a few deep breaths before recommencing lip-lock on
his butt? 

Perhaps then you will realize you have (and have had) little, if anything,
constructive to offer to this discussion and therefore aren't really taken
all that seriously? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 13:04:10 PDT 1996
Article: 52203 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blah-blah, Blaha
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 21:06:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <4ssptk$ede@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ssptk$ede@juliana.sprynet.com>, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

> Would you post ALL of Blaha's testimony for us?  Or, if you can't do that, 
> would you mind informing us of the volume and page numbers where one can 
> research his testimony?  

[snip]

Interrogation of the witness Dr. Blaha, Dachau, 3 May 1945, by the
investigating officer, Col. David Chavez, Jr., State Archives Nuremberg
Rep. 502-IV-PS.

U.S. Army documentary film, ADC 4468/SPX-G LIB 6572 of 3 May 1945, Army
Pictorial Center, Long Island City, N.Y.

Nuremberg Doc. 3249-PS.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 13:04:10 PDT 1996
Article: 52204 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What was the holocaust
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:45:16 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4ssorm$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199608174836@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <21JUL199608174836@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

> In article <4ssorm$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes...
> > 
> > 
> 
>     [nothing deleted]
>     What, Matt, trying to bring your characters per post statistic down?

Or maybe he was _trying_ to clean up his act and post content....  At
least he got the _first_ part right! };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 13:04:11 PDT 1996
Article: 52206 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!news.belnet.be!news.be.innet.net!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.revisionism,soc.motss,soc.culture.jewish,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship,news.groups
Subject: Re: Ken McVay and Rich Graves support censorship
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:02:03 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References: <4s5b5c$1s5@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <4ss1co$eq@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <4ssifd$1b2@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <005304Z22071996@anon.penet.fi>
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In article <005304Z22071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:

[drug-induced drivel snipped}

> Led Zeppelin is white power music!

Really? When I was a kid, all the loadies listened to them....  };-> 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 15:21:57 PDT 1996
Article: 52264 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!gatech!ncar!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!rain.fr!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:40:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s5qon$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk> <4saqgh$c1k@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>  <4see7v$r1v@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>  <4skapj$6t4@netnews.upenn.edu> <4snacu$7s7@dfw-ixnew <4sq0vt$c0r@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ss9ei$3kao@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80296 alt.revisionism:52264

In article <4ss9ei$3kao@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:

[snip]

> Let's see.  In the past two weeks, he has trolled himself, spammed himself
> and lied about 150 times.
> 
> BTW, wonder where that lawsuit is.

Hmmm. I wonder if the Troll will _sue_ himself! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 15:21:58 PDT 1996
Article: 52268 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:52:39 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 54
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4svmti$sdh@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 

[snip]

> >But since Ehrlich606 is _so_ fond of bashing the Soviets in defense of
> the
> >Nazis, how about I play along? Could it be, perhaps, that these errors
> >were _intentional_? That Nyiszli, knowing that the Soviet death toll
> >estimates did not match up with his experiance at Auschwitz, sought some
> >way to hint such without taking any heat? 
> >
> >How about picking a few _obvious_ and _verifiable_ things (such as Krema
> >dimensions, number of elevators, etc.) and _exaggerate_ them by _exactly_
> >the amount the Soviet death toll for Auschwitz was exaggerated by! What a
> >marvelously subtle idea! 
> >
> Welcome to Byzantium!

Indeed. It is such an odd place you live in, Ehrlich606!

> The idea that Nyiszli would exaggerate things by four as a *secret code of
> dissent* does not add up.  The dimensions of the rooms are given as 200
> yards long.  1/4 would be 150 feet.  In fact, the undressing cellar is 175
> feet long, the chamber 100 feet long.  The number of victims, divided by
> four, is 3000/4 = 750. So much for 1,000 or 2,000 at a time.
> 
> In fact, the Soviets never mentioned the dimensions of the Kremas in their
> Special Commission, submitted at the IMT as USSR-8.  They _did_ however
> give the dimensions of the four burning pits.  And guess what?  Nyiszli's
> dimensions are dead on with the dimensions of the Soviet Commission.  In
> addition, Nyiszli's cremation time for three corpses is 20 minutes, also
> in accordance with USSR-8.  So much for that theory.

Should I reel you in now, Ehrlich606? Or should I play you a little longer? 

> There are other correspondences with USSR-8 that should be explored.

Indeed. But not by you, as you have _such_ a byzantine way of looking at
things- always finding a conspiracy in every utterance.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 15:56:33 PDT 1996
Article: 52279 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.whine
Subject: Re: [Press Release]  Freedom-Site suffers censorship from Pathway Communications
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 15:21:23 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52279 alt.whine:1351


Grammar Lesson #1:

In article <4svh5d$i4r@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, freedom@netcom.ca (Marc
Lemire) tripped over his keyboard:

> Please show us your proof Rich.

"Please show us your proof, Rich."

> Oh I get it rich, according to your logic, I would not have complained about 
> my website being shut down, but becuase some anonymous poster posted a 
> messages claiming to be the one who kicked me off, I did?

"Oh, I get it, Rich. According to your logic I would not have complained about 
my website being shut down. But I did because some anonymous poster posted
a messages claiming to be the one who kicked me off?

> It was Rich Graves who is the "Anonymous Troll"

> It is Rich Graves who is the "Anonymous Troll."

[or]

> It was Rich Graves who was the "Anonymous Troll."

> I have about as much evidence for that as Rich does to claim that I was 
> secretly the anonymous person who posted the message.

"I have about as much evidence for that as Rich does in claiming that I
was the anonymous person who posted the message."

[or possibly] 

"I have about as much evidence for that as Rich does in claiming that I
was the anonymous person who secretly posted the message."

>The constitution does not apply to either me or Les, since we are both 
>Canadians.

"The U.S. Constitution does not apply to Les or myself since we are both 
Canadian citizens."


Mark

[follow-ups to alt.whine]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 19:58:43 PDT 1996
Article: 52319 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:40:33 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 107
Message-ID: 
References: <4quqbi$dv6@Vir.com>  <31E26F1B.5712@rio.com> <837211161snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>   <837950411snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <837950411snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            mvanalst@rbi.com "Mark Van Alstine" writes:
> > 
> > Not to mention that "building X" contained _four_ small disinfestation
> > rooms _and_ a larger gas chamber that bore a striking resemblence to those
> > used in the T4 program. It was in the gas chamber, and _not_ the
> > disinfestation rooms, that Blaha said he saw gassing victims in. It was
> > also the gas chamber that Rascher told Payne-Best about in regards to the
> > difficulties of camouflaging it and concealing the gassings that took
> > place there. (cf. _Nazi Mass Murder_, pp.202-204.) 
> 
> Sorry I've not been responding, I've had connection problems. I've heard a
> lot about T4 and don't dispute the existence of the euthanasia programme but
> I've never seen a photograph of these chambers. They are said to exist but
> never produced - a typical Exterminationist tactic.

Ah, such a typical denier tactic: "Where are the photos." As if the mounds
of records, documents, and eywitness testimonies verifying that over
100,000 _Germans_ were murdered; not to mention that their _remains_,
which in many cases were delivered (more or less) to the victims'
relatives, don't matter one bit! 

Tsk tsk. Haven't changed at all, have you, Al? Do you still claim that
nary a Jew was murdered during Kristallnacht too? 

> I have documented Blaha's nonsense already. What Rascher allegedly told
> Payne Best is evidence of nothing. 

Historically, Al, everything Rascher told Payne-Best is useful. Rascher's
memo regarding testing combat gases in the gas chamber at Dachau is also
quite useful. I know that puts a burr under your saddle and all... You
really should get used to it though. 

> By the way, do you know what happened to Rascher?

He and his wife were sentanced to death by the Nazis for child
substitution (they tried to pass off two, presumably non-Aryan children,
as their own biological children) and were rumored to be shot at Dachau. 

> The point about the Dachau "gas chamber" is that a delousing chamber was
> photographed and exhibited as a gas chamber and testimony was adduced that 
> people were gassed with "cyanide powder", ie Zyklon B. 

Would this be, by chance, the: U.S. Army documentary film, ADC 4468/SPX-G
LIB 6572 of 3 May 1945, Army Pictorial Center, Long Island City, N.Y.?

You know, the one that showed "in detail the inside rooms of the
crematorium, the room called the morgue, the room with the four crematory
ovens, and finally the gas chamber. This last was a windowless room; metal
strips pierced with holes had been set in the cincrete ceiling; on one of
the iron doors was the inscription: 'Showers.' On the left side of the
building were four little disinfestation rooms; also closed with iron
doors, which bore the inscription, under a death's-head: 'Attention! Gas!
Danger of Death. Do Not Open.'" (_Nazi Mass Murder_, p.203.) 

Is _this_ the film you're talking about, Al? 

> This is in the Nuremberg documents (Volume XXX). Matt Giwer has posted 
> this here and I have a photocopy of the actual document. This testimony 
> was obviously made up by  the Americans. All "gassing" testimony is equally 
> reliable, ie perjured.

Don't forget Dr. Larsen, the U.S. Army forensic pathologist who was at
Dachau just after its liberation. He wrote that:

"The majority [of prisoners] died of natural diseases of one kind or the
another. However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to
those prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do
with them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First,
however, they were taken to a big windowless building next to the
crematorium where the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The
victims were then ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the
building, guards dropped in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide
gas out and remove the bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think
this is what happened to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those
they considered unruly and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion,
were incorrigibles. But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates
I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner."  (_Crime
Doctor_, p.61.) 

Ah, but then, you claim _all_ testimony about gassing is "perjured." Why?
So far simply because Al Baron says so, of course! Not a shred of solid
evidence to support your claims, just "Because I Say So!" 

That too, is a typical denier tactic. One of _your_ "specialties," in
fact, Al.  
 

> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy

Indeed. How self-incriminating, Al! 


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 22:33:31 PDT 1996
Article: 52335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.whine
Subject: Re: Hate Site Shut Down
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 15:17:04 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 78
Message-ID: 
References: <025659Z03071996@anon.penet.fi> <31dccc8a.35418772@news2.compulink.com> <4svdgj$i1o@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52335 alt.whine:1352


Grammar Lesson #2:

In article <4svdgj$i1o@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, freedom@netcom.ca (Marc
Lemire) trips over his keyboard:

> I am a completly non-violent person, I hardy doubt I am "secretly plotting to 
> kill you" little paranoid.

"I hardly doubt I am 'secretly plotting to kill you.' I am a completly
non-violent person, you little paranoid." 

[An interesting (if unfornunate) choice of words given that "hardly" can
be taken as "not at all" and thus implies: "I doubt not at all I am
'secretly plotting to kill you.'" One hopes this is not indeed some
"secret plot" or some such thing....] 

> Also within 24 hours of being censored by pathway Communications, I had the 
> Freedom-Site back up at http://www.ftcnet.com/~freedom.

 "Also, within 24 hours..."

> Maybe you can try to get me kicked off there.

"Maybe you can try to get me kicked off there?"

[or]

"Maybe you can try to get me kicked off there too."

> Well charging me under Canada's hate law (Which you need the attorney general 
> of ONtario to OK) would not get my phone lines shut down.

"Well, charging me under Canada's hate law (which needs the OK of the Attorney
General of Ontario) would not get my phone lines shut down."

> Also please tell me what part of section 319 of the criminal code (hate law) 
> did I supposidly voilate.  I would certainly like to see this "evidence"

"Also, please tell me what part of section 319 of the criminal code (i.e.
'hate law') did I supposedly violate? I would certainly like to see this
'evidence.'"

> There no stopping you now eh!

"There's no stopping you now!"

[or]

"There's no stopping you now, eh?"

> Who are you going to ban next? .....gun nuts, religious fanatics, 
> "right-wingers" or just anyone who disagree's with you?

"Who are you going to ban next? Gun nuts, religious fanatics,
'right-wingers,' or just anyone who disagrees with you?"

[or]

"Who are you going to ban next? Gun nuts? Religious fanatics?
'Right-wingers?' Or just anyone who disagrees with you?"

> cheers

"Cheers,"


Mark

[follow-ups to alt.whine]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 23:07:01 PDT 1996
Article: 79107 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.midplains.net!news.mhtc.net!aonline!news.u.washington.edu!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.whine
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 15:08:45 -0700
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 23:07:01 PDT 1996
Article: 79111 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!bcarh8ac.bnr.ca!brtph500.bnr.ca!deepthot!castle.nando.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.whine
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 15:17:45 -0700
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 22 23:08:26 PDT 1996
Article: 52344 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyszili
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:40:18 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References: <4svdop$naf@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4svdop$naf@juliana.sprynet.com>, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

> Did I get your attention?  Here is my question-aside from his 
> well known book on the subject, did Nyszili ever testify in any 
> court of law?  

Dr. Nyiszli gave a deposition on July 28, 1945, before the Budapest
Commission for the Welfare of Deported Hungarian Jews. 

>Had any non-Soviet historian ever met with him before he died?  

Does it matter? 

> How did his manuscript get to be published and how can any of it be verified?

Perhaps you could ask N. Margareta Nyiszli? The copyright is assigned to
her. You might also ask the origional (U.S.) publisher: F. Fell, New York.
Or maybe the current (U.S.) publisher: Arcade Publishing, Inc., New York. 

> Did Filip Mueller plagiarize the Nyszili book?  

Do you have reason to believe he did? 

>Do we have written corroboration to prove that N. was  an inmate at Auschwitz?

He was tatooed with Prisoner No. A-8450. You might check the prisoner
regsitration records....

> Do we know how he came to be interred there?  

He was deported to Auschwitz from Oradea-Nagyvarad, along with other
Hungarian Jews, in May of 1944

> Why do you suppose he survived?

Because he was a physician, a pathologist who had practised forensic
medicine, who volunteered to work for the Nazis. For Mengele,
specifically. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 07:05:00 PDT 1996
Article: 52361 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.sfo.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Les Retard, the Security Guard" was: Re: The haters have problems: internal problems.
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:16:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <4s71j3$vpu@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> <4sq9p9$7qe@news.asiaonline.net> <4sr70g$f3h@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4st8hs$bl4@usenet4.interramp.com> <4t0clm$ltm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4t0h68$8i4@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4t14ep$dn9@news1.panix.com> <4t19cs$hja@freenet-news.carleton.ca> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.politics:60119 alt.politics.white-power:36867 alt.politics.nationalism.white:25961 alt.discrimination:50832 alt.revisionism:52361

In article <4t19cs$hja@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:

> Andrew Mathis (fresh@panix.com) writes:
> > ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow) wrote:
> > 
> >>Anyone a bit worried about this nazi being given a uniform and a gun? If
> >>you think the Toronto police have been somewhat trigger-happy where young
> >>black men are concerned, just imagine mall cop Les Griswold in a crisis
> >>situation, say if a black person brings more than ten items to the express
> >>line....
> > 
> > He isn't licensed to carry a gun.
> 
> How do you know?

Becuase, Les, you haven't blown off both your feet yet.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 07:05:01 PDT 1996
Article: 52363 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Les Retard, the Security Guard" was: Re: The haters have problems: internal problems.
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:13:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <4s71j3$vpu@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> <4sq9p9$7qe@news.asiaonline.net> <4sr70g$f3h@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4st8hs$bl4@usenet4.interramp.com> <4t0clm$ltm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4t0h68$8i4@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4t14ep$dn9@news1.panix.com>
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In article <4t14ep$dn9@news1.panix.com>, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

> ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow) wrote:
> 
> 
> >Anyone a bit worried about this nazi being given a uniform and a gun? If
> >you think the Toronto police have been somewhat trigger-happy where young
> >black men are concerned, just imagine mall cop Les Griswold in a crisis
> >situation, say if a black person brings more than ten items to the express
> >line....
> 
> He isn't licensed to carry a gun.

Neither is he licensed to shoot off his big-mouth.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 07:05:01 PDT 1996
Article: 52384 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:31:08 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <31ef83ba.614171@news.pacificnet.net> <4sobfn$sg4@news.enter.net> <31f0cd46.450439@news.pacificnet.net> <4ss37g$77o@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31f230a7.2954965@news.pacificnet.net> <4sv41h$a48@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4t05bi$dim@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t05bi$dim@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

> Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 13:29:24 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> : 
> : >     Now here is Mr."McFee" with something else. 
> : 
> :       There us no one inside McFly.  
> 
> 
> Make it stop.  Please.

Why, Bill? The Troll is a _riot_! I haven't seen this kind of
self-immolating comedy in _years_!

ROTFL!

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 07:05:02 PDT 1996
Article: 52411 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!nntp.netrex.net!news.voyager.net!aanews.merit.net!imci3!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:11:59 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References: <4sptl9$p7q@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31f0cf59.982168@news.pacificnet.net> <4ssbgk$bj1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

> In article <4ssbgk$bj1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> the Troll whined:
> 

[snip]

> > They are already using a pharmacist to discredit me.  Next will be a
> > janitor.  
>  
> A truer word was never spoken, Mr. Giwer.
>  
> Any qualified janitor has twice the reasoning power you have shown here.
>  
> Not a flame or insult.
>  
> Just simple facts.
>  

Ouch! How disheartening it must be for the Troll when such simple facts
cut so deep.  Poor Troll....     

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 07:05:03 PDT 1996
Article: 52430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 14:44:33 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References:  <4svn52$sfg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4svn52$sfg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> Uh huh.  Does that mean I am right?

Nope. It means you are being a facetious troll. You're spending _way_ too
much time with the Troll. Monkey see, monkey do....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 13:09:05 PDT 1996
Article: 79139 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:16:11 -0700
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Lines: 1
Message-ID: 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 18:21:08 PDT 1996
Article: 52590 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!brighton.openmarket.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 21:33:44 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <31f27f60.11773942@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31f27f60.11773942@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>                 Behold the lie, tell your friends.

[re-posted Moranic(tm) garbage snipped]

For a rebuttal of Moran's post detailing his outright lies, malicious
distortions,  propensity for propaganda, rampant anti-Semitism, and his
delusional state of mind, please refer to:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/behold-the-liar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 18:21:08 PDT 1996
Article: 52636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:19:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References: <4soktb$2r3@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4sqbmg$s7p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sqbmg$s7p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> >Mr. Ehrlich: you are a liar.  Not surprising with the company you keep.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Rich Green
> 
> Mr. Green, you are literal to and beyond a fault, and as full of mist as
> das Christmas goose.  IMHO.

DvdThomas, you are neither humble nor have opinions worth the mist from
"das Christmas goose." A common character defect among Holocaust deniers
it seems. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 20:24:05 PDT 1996
Article: 52590 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!brighton.openmarket.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 21:33:44 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <31f27f60.11773942@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31f27f60.11773942@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>                 Behold the lie, tell your friends.

[re-posted Moranic(tm) garbage snipped]

For a rebuttal of Moran's post detailing his outright lies, malicious
distortions,  propensity for propaganda, rampant anti-Semitism, and his
delusional state of mind, please refer to:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/behold-the-liar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 23 20:24:06 PDT 1996
Article: 52636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:19:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References: <4soktb$2r3@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4sqbmg$s7p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4sqbmg$s7p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> >Mr. Ehrlich: you are a liar.  Not surprising with the company you keep.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Rich Green
> 
> Mr. Green, you are literal to and beyond a fault, and as full of mist as
> das Christmas goose.  IMHO.

DvdThomas, you are neither humble nor have opinions worth the mist from
"das Christmas goose." A common character defect among Holocaust deniers
it seems. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 24 07:10:15 PDT 1996
Article: 52812 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:14:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <31f0cf59.982168@news.pacificnet.net> <4ssbgk$bj1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4ssjbo$pne@atlas.uniserve.com> <4ssoha$erp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4svbs0$687@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4svbs0$687@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

[Trollish snipped]

> Listen to that unemployed electrician... But how can you possibly disprove an 
> electrician witha historian?

It's not too hard when the "electrician" is mentally "unplugged!" Even a
_janitor_ could do it. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 24 15:19:32 PDT 1996
Article: 52908 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: German hegemony over Europe through the European Union
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:40:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References:  <4sb1gt$kun@news.enter.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >
> >The question to you then, Mr. Kreiberg, is WHY do you continue hold up
> >this fraud Leuchter as an authority on ANYTHING related to the homicidal
> >gas chambers at Auschwitz? 
> >
>  Well much of what he wrote in that report has been confirmed by the Walther
> Lueftl report as well as the Germer Rudolph report. Walther Lueftl is in fact
> an engineer and Germer Rudolph is a graduate of chemistry.

Mr.Kreiberg, would you care to expend upon the particulars here? Both
Lueftl and Rudolph have been shown, to put it charitably, to be in serious
error in what they have published.  

Of course, this really has nothing to do with your continued citing of a
self-admitted fraud such as Leuchter. 

But you knew that. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 24 21:55:56 PDT 1996
Article: 52962 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mattie Giwer can contradict himself *six* times before breakfast?
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:00:30 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <4t0o4c$k45@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t0usu$ec3@news.enter.net> <4t3c21$9oi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <31F57FF7.182C@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31F57FF7.182C@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> Joel Rosenberg wrote:
> 
> > >Hmmm.. and what are the American laws relating to extortion?
> > >Which agencies might take an interest in such matters, Mr.
> > >Edeiken?
> > 
> > [waving hand wildly]
> > 
> > I know, I know!  There's the AG's office in the state of residence of
> > the person committing extortion, and there's the FBI.  And there's
> > also the Department of State, come to think of it.
> 
> Department of State?  So, you mean Matt Giwer can become a bigger
> embarressment to the United States than he already is?
> 
> How amusing.

Hey! Watch it there! You have Zundel and Lemire, and.... };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 24 21:55:57 PDT 1996
Article: 52963 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ethnic groups
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:51:14 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4svgko$ma9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <22JUL199609445230@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <22JUL199609445230@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

> In article <4svgko$ma9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com the
Troll > gibbered:

[snip]

> > Prior to 1960 anyone claiming there was a segregation by other than 
> > national origin would have been round of town on a rail if possible as 
> > they were all Americans. And national origin meant shit save in cities 
> > like New York where it is still the most obnoxious city in the country.  
> 
>     Earl Warren wrote a little essay (co-signed by eight of his friends) in
>     December of 1953 which, in the eyes of any sane person, would
>     demonstrate you are wrong.
> 
>     Shoot, even Plessy v. Ferguson shows debate on the subject and
>     demonstrates you are wrong.

Not to mention a little historical document, written in the 1860's, called
the "Emancipation Proclamation".... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:47 PDT 1996
Article: 53012 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's way with women
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:04:52 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t4qci$eg7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

[snip]

> His fixation with the women here would, in my opinion, draw only one
> obvious conclusion: tiny penis.
>  

Sara, I would say that was a "low blow" but you may be correct that
there's little, if anything, to take a shot at below the Troll's waist....


Certainly nothing of reproductive value. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:48 PDT 1996
Article: 53024 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:20:57 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <4ss385$2f2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4suu16$rjm@news.enter.net> <4svfcc$8a1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
> [To Yale F. Edeiken]
> 
> # Straight from the Library of Congress to you, jerkoff Jew.
> 
> I already told you that you're going down the tubes.
> 
> Seek medical help, maybe it's not too late.


It's too late. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:49 PDT 1996
Article: 53027 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:19:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References: <4svf8c$8a1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4svtpo$7lu@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4svtpo$7lu@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >  The Troll bellows:

[snip]

> >And all of your dates leave us a long way from prior to 1776.  
>   
> >One would think that an American would have better sense than to lie 
> >about the history of his own country.
> 
> Giwer is telling us that 1777, 1778, 1779, 1780, 1781 are not part of the 
> American Revolution?
> 
> Valley Forge was not part of the American Revolution?
> 
> Read any history book Matty poo.

Indeed. Perhaps then the Troll would belatedly realize that the American
Revolution took place between April 19, 1775, (Lexington and Concord) and
November 25, 1783, when the last British troops embarked. (The British
transports stood out to sea on December 4, 1783). 

The official recognition of independance and formal conclusion of
hostilities between the United States and Great Britain was made on
November 30, 1782, at the Treaty of Paris, but was to become effective on
the conclusion of Great Britain's war with France and Spain on January 20,
1783, at the Treaty of Versailles. 

> > Why are you trying to sound like a Canadian ignoramous?  
> 
> Having had his rather ignorant thesis disputed, Giwer has taken to 
> denying the American Revolution.  Amazing.

Not really. Typically stupid, but hardly amazing for the Troll.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:49 PDT 1996
Article: 53062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Les the Genius
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:36:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References:  <120309Z24071996@anon.penet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.politics:60550 alt.politics.white-power:37063 alt.politics.nationalism.white:26116 alt.discrimination:50964 alt.revisionism:53062

In article <120309Z24071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com writes:
> 

[snip]

> One of the good guys.  Contrary to all the other "American"
> opponents of Stalinism, he recognised Jews were also on the
> bad side.  He wasn't like Robert Conquest and Sakharov, etc.,
> who took advantage of the terror to promote Judiasm.  Check
> out the page in Gulag II where there's six pictures of Jews,
> all evil, such as Yagoda, head of the OGPU, and Frenkel, a
> camp chief.  Yagoda's predecessor, name starts with an M.,
> and his successor, Yezhov, and his successor, Lavrenti Beria,
> were Jewish.  Joseph Stalin married Jewish as his second or
> third wife, and his airhead daughter Svetlana is half Jewish.
> (She was cute as a kid, however.)

Hmmm. I think we all can guess which side of the "line" that this
Vyshinsky character is on: the fruit 'n' nuts side.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 09:10:21 PDT 1996
Article: 53093 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Substance and Hot Air
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:27:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References: <31ebb96b.12403383@news.pacificnet.net> <31ef851c.968327@news.pacificnet.net> <4ssfu5$nvs@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <31f2309d.2945627@news.pacificnet.net> <4t4bqh$hr4@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t4bqh$hr4@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
(Richard Schultz) wrote:

> tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
> 
> :       Your source [for the gross receipts for _Schindler's List_] is from 
> : the World Almanac which took it from a Variety article, you say? 
> : Very impressive.
> 
> Well, since _Variety_ is the trade paper for the motion picture industry,
> I figured that it would be as accurate a source for motion picture
> revenues as any.  Since I don't have direct access to _Variety_, I looked
> up the World Almanac's report of what Variety's list of the top-grossing
> movies was.  If you think that the World Almanac misrepresented what
> the original _Variety_ article said, then all you have to do is go find
> the original _Variety_ article.  If you think that for some reason, the
> _Variety_ article was in error, then you have to provide some evidence.
> And repeating over and over "it was a flop" is not evidence for anyone
> with something between his ears more substantial than Tuna Noodle Casserole.
> 

Oh, man! I _like_ tuna noodle casserole too! Now you went and spoiled it
for me! I bet from now on that every time I get a craving for tuna noodle
casserole I'll probably think of it slurping around at the bottom of
Moran's brain pan and lose my appetite.... };-> 

Of course, thinking about Moran in _any_ context can cause one too lose
one's appetite- not to mention one's lunch.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 10:08:51 PDT 1996
Article: 53107 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goering's remarks shocked Speer?
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:52:48 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References: <4t1vf7$24o@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t1vf7$24o@juliana.sprynet.com>, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

>All this is conjecture.  Ultimately it doesn't matter what Speer thought 
>or whether he was "stunned" by Goering's remarks.  

 Typical denier. When their reasoning unravels they resort to
"Because I Say So." 

> None of us are mind  readers and Svengali's been dead for years, so we can  
> only form a  reasonable personal opinion based upon the available information 
> on Goering and his personality.  

And said information comes from many sources. Especially from his
contemporaries like Speer and Eichmann, etc. Judging from what is known of
Go"ring's "personality" it is quite believable he kew _exactly_ what had
happened to the Jews. Including the Hungarian Jews.

> Having read a great deal about Goering...

And what "great deal" of reading on Go"ring have you done? Do be please
specific and list the titles and/or authors. 

>I believe the remark was made in sarcasm,despite Speer's profession of shock.  

You believe?  Fine. _I_ believe you're wrong and that Go"ring knew
what happened to the Jews. So did Eichmann. 

> Perhaps Speer really wasn't "shocked".  Perhaps this was just another 
> invention of his?

Perhaps this is simply another (silly) denier invention of yours? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 11:44:04 PDT 1996
Article: 53135 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!fozzie.mercury.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's way with women
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:09:05 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t6kgr$b8p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t6kgr$b8p@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article ,
> schwartz@infinet.com writes:
> 
> >The simple fact is: Mr. Giwer HAS no explanation and so responds with his
> >insults and name-calling.
> > 
> >His fixation with the women here would, in my opinion, draw only one
> >obvious conclusion: tiny penis.
> > 
> >Sara
> >
> >
> 
> Oh, cut it out.  I understand Matt has 16 megabytes of RAM on his hard
> drive.

Indeed. And how long have they been left sitting on his hard drive,
collecting dust? Jeeez, what clowns.... 

Like she said: "tiny penis." Anything more substantial would cause a loss
of consciousness due to lack a of blood reaching the _other_ little head. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 12:14:20 PDT 1996
Article: 37081 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Wiesenthal Center (Canada) and the Ostrich Syndrome
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:03:59 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 106
Message-ID: 
References: <4t2qun$5sv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31f5028a.11507721@news.pacificnet.net> <4t4rs7$hp1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4t5ch6$knd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <033303Z25071996@anon.penet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <033303Z25071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:

#> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca writes:
#> 
#> >In article , 
#> >schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
#> >
#> >>I'd venture to guess Ken McVay is more like me: a masochist. Otherwise HOW
#> >>could he ever wade through the Giwer-garbage each day?
#> >
#> >Ah, but that's where you've erred - I _don't_ wade through it
#> >- it is deleted from my reader's spool before I get into the
#> >newsgroup. Actually, there are two lines in the KILL file; the
#> >first archives the troll's stuff, the second kills it, along
#> >with Moran's. Makes for a peaceful morning.
#> 
#> Then there's nothing left to read but name-calling by Sarah, Bill,
#> Duncun and you.
#> 
#> Then you proceed with your hate-Mr.-Giwer machine spam:
#> 
#> >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
#> >interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
#> >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
#> >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
#> >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
#> >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
#> >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
#> >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
#> >respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
#> >URL
#http://www.anonymizer.com/http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
#> >URL http://www.anonymizer.com/http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
#> >
#> >Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special 
#> >newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately 
#> >ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
#> >redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
#> >an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
#> >-- 
#> >Nizkor Canada          | http://www.anonymizer.com/http://www.nizkor.org
#> >-----------------------| Prince Myshkin's Troll Bait Sold Here
#> >                       |--------------------------------------
#> >http://www.anonymizer.com/http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
#> 
#> Prepending your URL's is necessary to avoid your ident/syslogs.
#> You shouldn't be probing port 113 anyway, because it makes each web page
#> connection take considerably longer.
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> 
#> May the road rise to meet you.
#> May the wind be always at your back.
#> May the sun shine warm upon your face,
#> the rain fall soft upon your fields,
#> and until we meet again,
#> may God hold you in the palm of His hand.
#> --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
#> Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
#> Please, report inappropriate use to                abuse@anon.penet.fi
#> For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to    help@anon.penet.fi
#> If you have any problems, address them to          admin@anon.penet.fi

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Jul 25 20:02:25 PDT 1996
Article: 53209 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:32:48 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 82
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net> <31E54DBE.7A5A@gryn.org> <4s3r83$b8u@elaine24.Stanford.EDU> <4s4hjb$386@news1.io.org> <4s52vo$qpu@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
> > alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
> > 
> > > Hint: Hydrogen has a lower molecular weight. It rises.
> > 
> > Hint:  You are out of your depth but your fellow holohuggers will not
> > tell you that.
> 
> Hydrogen, when mixed with the atmosphere as it usually is, does not
> rise. If gases followed that rule, then the lower atmosphere would be
> composed mostly of oxygen (molecular weight 32) and the upper atmosphere
> mostly of nitrogen (28).
> 
> The "lighter gases rise" rule applies only on a macroscopic scale, which
> in practical terms means closed containers (e.g. zeppelins)... 

Indeed. Zepplins "float" for the very same reason boats float: Archimede's
Principle. 

> ...or continuous production in the immediate vicinity of the source (e.g.
> heated air from a candle).  

Or hot exhaust gases from a smokestack. (See below.) 

> ...On the microscopic and molecular scales, gravity is irrelevant.  
> And without a closed container, turbulence quickly reduces gas 
> heterogeneity to the molecular scale.

Quite right. Which is why smokestacks are generally tall. The
(concentrated) exhaust gases are released (hopefully) above the boundry
layer so that when it cools and mixes with the surrounding atmosphere, it
will be far above the ground and disperse effectively (and safely). 

> For what it's worth, the "revisionist" David Cole made the same error at
> least once.  He claimed that other "revisionists" like Faurisson were
> wrong to say that the vented poison gas would float across the way to
> kill people at the hospital, because the gas, HCN, was lighter than air
> and would rise "straight up."  True, HCN is lighter than air (molecular
> weight 27, and the atmosphere is usually taken as 28-point-something).
> But, as I just mentioned, that's irrelevant.
> 
> (The reason the HCN vented from Krema I would not float across the road
> and kill people in the hospital is the same reason that exhaust vented
> from automobiles does not kill people walking on the sidewalk.  A gas
> emitted in deadly poisonous concentrations from a car's tailpipe is
> quite harmless to someone standing five feet away in the open air.  Cole
> had the right answer, but the wrong reason.)

Actually, the fact that the HCN-laden air from Krema I's gas chamber was
mixed into the _continuous_ hot (~500-700 C) exhaust gases (that were
emitted from the furnaces) needs to be taken into account as well. This
would, I believe, cause the HCN-laden air to rise just like smoke from a
chimney would. (In fact, it would be _part_ of the smoke rising from the
chimney!) Eventually, of course, the volume of rising "smoke" would
succumb to turbulent diffusion. I would think, then, that both Charle's
Law and Archimede's Principle, as well as turbulent diffusion, would be
involved in this process. 

> Of course, a question now, ahem, arises.  Why did Mr. Giwer assert that
> we "holohuggers" would not bother to inform Mr. Grynspan of his error?
> Will Mr. Giwer admit that he was wrong?
> 
> (Those are rhetorical questions, of course;  we all know the answers.)

Indeed!


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:48 PDT 1996
Article: 53256 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TOO SHOCKING FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:19:40 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: <4t18c9$ev2@news.enter.net> <4t2pp9$bgt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t2pp9$bgt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> Yale Edeiken wrote:
> 
> >Whether you insist upon it or not, it is the standard you used.  You have
> 
> >suspicion and, therefore, you announce it as a fact.
> >
> 
> > [snipped intervening text separating statements that obviously should be
> in sequence]
> >
> 
> >There was no physical torture of the Germans accused of committing the 
> >Malmedy Massacre.  The convicted murderers who so stated were lying. 
> >Roberts is lying.  Anybody who supports his statements is lying.
> >
> > Proof that I am wrong is fairly simple.  Show us the medical records
> that 
> >say otherwise.
> 
> Note that I do not accuse you of lying.  To make that ridiculous assertion
> would imply that I can somehow read your mind.

No, for you to make the ridiculous assrtion tht Mr. Ediken lied when he
has correctly stated what he did above takes nothing more than you being
dishonest. That hardly takes a leap of faith to imagine. Certainly not
mind reading. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:49 PDT 1996
Article: 53353 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:12:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t6hgo$o2u@news.enter.net>  
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel
Rosenberg) wrote:

> In article  dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel
Keren) writes:
> 
> 
> >schwartz@infinet.com writes:
> 
> ># And honestly, Mr. Giwer, don't you think demeaning comments 
> ># like "fatbroad" only make you look even more childish and 
> ># petulant? 
> 
> >He's mentally retarded. That's what he can do. Call every female
> >poster here "fatbroad".
> 
> >His life is a failure; he can still realize this, and it makes
> >him angry. So, he lashes out in desperation, trying to get
> >even with the world.
> 
> Dr. Keren, that's unfair.  It's not the fault of the mentally retarded that 
> they're, well, mentally retarded, and to compare such folks -- most of whom 
> are decent, if unbright, individuals -- with Giwer is a slur that the
mentally 
> retarded don't deserve.  
> 
> Giwer's problem is that he's willfully stupid and deliberately evil, not 
> retarded.  

Indeed. Call it the Stupidity of Evil.... 

MArk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:49 PDT 1996
Article: 53354 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Post your forensic studies here
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:52:26 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 158
Message-ID: 
References: <4t4aa6$2nc@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t5grs$pou@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t5grs$pou@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4t4aa6$2nc@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> the Troll pontificates:
> 
> >I suggest the answer is very simply in the fumigation process. 
> >Large items such as mattresses once fumigated took much longer 
> >to air out as  people being in contact with them meant being in 
> >contact with cyanide while sleeping. Very bad.  
> >
> >So they were carried outside and propped up against the walls for
> >hours to get rid of it. That covers the huge amounts on both the 
> >inside and outside walls of some of these buildings.  
> 
> This is entirely plausible.  As Deborah Lipstadt writes, After
> fumigation, gas would be trapped in all sorts of nooks and crannies. 
> Consequently mattresses, pillows, upholstered furniture, and similar items
> had to be shaken or beaten for at least an hour in the open air. quote> *Denying the Holocaust*, p. 224

Actually, Lipstadt wrote:

"The instructions cited [NI-9912] were for use in a room or a private
home- not gas-tight areas such as those in the death camps -full of
furniture, household goods, bedding, carpeting, and the like. They
stipulated how windows were to be sealed, keyholes taped, and chimneys
covered. After fumigation, gas would be trapped in all sorts of nooks and
crannies. Consequently mattresses, pillows, upholstered furniture, and
similar items had tobe shaken or beaten for at least an hour in the open
air. The homicidal gas chambers were of an entirely different nature. They
were empty of any items except a small number of phont shower heads and
dead bodies. The floors and ceilings were made of bare concrete. A
powerful ventilation system especially desinged for the gas chambers had
been installed. In this open and unencumnered setting it served as an
extremely efficient means of extracting the gas...." (_Denying the
Holocaust_, p.224.) 

Ehrlich606's selective and misleading quoting aside (Tsk tsk!), the Troll
makes some unwarranted assumptions about these "mattresses" and how they
may have been disinfested:

According to Otto Freidrich in _The Kingdom of Auschwitz_ the prisoners in
Auschwitz I "slept in three tiered wooden bunks, half a dozen men to a
bunk, often with no mattresses or blankets.... The prisoners' only
consolation was that Birkenau was even worse." 

And which delousing gas chambers, specifically, were mattresses deloused
in? Perhaps in Block 3? According to Andreje Rablin (prisoner no. 1410): 

"...In these rooms ther were wooden frames with hooks on which we hung
clothes... There were many lice in the clothes. Sometimes, filling the
chamber with clothes took as much as two days...." (_Technique_, p.25>)

Nope, not the delousing gas chambers in Block 3.

How about Block 26? According to Pressac:

"According to <> conserved at the PMO, volume 100 page 48, a
clothing delousing installation was installed in two rooms of the ground
floor of Block 26.... The disinfestation agen tis not known. The plans on
the inventory drawing suggest a complex installation using steam, the
situation dating from February 1942 and, it would appear definitive since
the installation was designed almost a year and a half earlier. It could
be that initially it functioned in a primative manner as gas chambers
using Zyklon-B, made gas tight by using strips of paper, and ventilated by
two air extraction fans." (Ibid. p. 24.)

Hmm. Not likely, as it was probably a _clothing_ delousing installlation
that used steam.

Block 1?  Probably not, as it seems to have been an ad hoc delousing gas
chamber dating from about mid-August 1942 (during the typhus epidemic),
for delousing personal effects. (cf. Ibid. p.27.)

Or the delousing gas chambers in the reception building? Nope. They were
used for quick delousing of the clothing of prisoners being admitted and
registered into the camp. (cf. Ibid. p.31.)

How about the two delousing gas chambers at Kanada I? According to Josef
Odi, who worked there in the spring of 1944:

"...There I disinfected the effects of people who had been killed. Furs
and valuable objects that could not be disinfested by steam were
disinfested using Zyklon-B, the same method that was used in the gas
chambers to kill men.... The disinfestation was organized as follws: all
the furs and valuable objects to be disinfested were hung up.... (Ibid.
p.41.)

Nope, the disinfestation of the clothes and valuables of the victims took
place there. 

How about the the disinfestation gas chambers of Bauwerken 5a and 5b?
Again, according to Pressac:

"...Simplifying the procedure somewhat, the prisoners entered, from left
to right on the first two drawings [...], through the windbreak entrance
into the <> room where they undressed [...] and their clothes were
taken through the <> anteroom and airlock to the gas chamber. After
the destruction of the lice using hydrocyanic acid, the effects were once
more available to the prisoners, rid of parasites but still just as
dirty...." [And still full of typhus-carrying lice feces, btw.] (Ibid.
p.53.)

Nope, sounds like 5a and 5b were used to delouse the prisoners' clothes. 

So what was that about mattresses propped up against the outside walls of
the delousing gas chambers? Sounds like more silly drivel from the
Troll....

But wait! In _Technique_ there's the testimony of Macha Ravine (no.
35,334) regarding a delousing (the first?) of the Blocks in the Woman's
camp:

"On the appointed day, at 2 o'clock in the morning there was a general
turn out. First we had to carry our straw mattresses and blankets to the
disinfestation.... After soup (it was 5 o'clock in the afternoon) they
took us back, still naked to our Block. By now we were too tired to feel
our humiliation so keenly as we had in the morning. The Block, which had
been disinfested was not yet open and we had to wait outside.... Finally
the door was opened and we rushed inside and went to our bunks of bare
boards. The mattresses and blankets were still in the disinfestation
building.... A few days later the lice reappeared. The first delousing had
thus resulted in nothing other than hundreds of cases of pneumonia and
some tuberculosis and we watched our ranks diminish day by day. Still
another method of extermination. The camp merited its name: <>" (Ibid. p.54.)

Ah, so mattresses _were_ taken to a disinfestation facility, according to
the _eyewitness testimony_ of Macha Ravine. Oh, my, such a conundrum this
must put the Troll in!  After all, the Troll says eyewtness testimony is
unreliable and cannot be used as evidence! 

But given that the Troll is a hypocrite, I'm sure he'd insist that
Ravine's testimony is valid. That mattresses _were_ disinfested. But was
it done in a gas chamber? Was Zyklon B used to disinfest them? 

The disinfestation facility in the women's camp used _hot air_ to
disinfest. As did the one in the Gypsey camp. The disinfestation facility
in the Zentral Sauna [the "Sauna"] used hot air, steam, and Karbol, Lizol,
or water containing hydrocyanic acid. (cf. Ibid. pp.58, 63, 65.) 

Oh well, it looks like the Troll was simply spouting drivel after all and
Ehrlich606, his trusty sidekick, keeps trying to back him to the hilt....
Even if it means being a bit dishonest. 

Why am I not suprised?


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:51 PDT 1996
Article: 53373 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: This is the guy who wants rational debate? (was Re: You Can _Never_ Have Too Much Diversity)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:31:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References: <31F2BDE2.447C@ix.netcom.com>         
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
jesusdung  wrote:

> ...I'm not against you the jew because of your racial background. Nope.
You're > white. But I'm against your judaic worldview: you're i'm a jew
and you're a >non-jew mentality. You've gotta lose that if you want to be
one of us. 

At times I wonder if these white-power ranger fruitcakes _really_
understand that most _normal_ people, including most bona fide "Aryan"
(i.e "white") people, such as myself, truly abhor the idea of being one of
"them?" 

There's a deeper issue at play here with these people. Like rampant stupidity
and too much inbreeding. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:52 PDT 1996
Article: 53375 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: This is the guy who wants rational debate? (was Re: You Can _Never_ Have Too Much Diversity)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:32:10 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <31F2BDE2.447C@ix.netcom.com>       <4t44a1$sp0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>    
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In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

[beetledung snipped]

> What a fascinating diatribe.

scatologically speaking perhaps. 

[snip]

> Please list the names of the Jews who head high finance and banking. HINT:
> some of the largest banks in the world are owned by the JAPANESE. Care to
> explain how they suddenly became Jewish?

>From  the Troll? Didn't he recently declare that Asians were Jewish or
some such insanity? 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:53 PDT 1996
Article: 53409 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:14:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 129
Message-ID: 
References: <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

[specious conjecture snipped]

> The Holocaust story has it that there were five retorts (fire
> chambers) heating three ovens each for a total of fifteen in Crema II.

Krema I had three (3) furnaces with two (2) muffles (retorts) each.

Kremas II and III had five (5) furnaces with three (3) muffles (retorts) each.

Kremas IV and V had one (1) furnace with eight (8) muffles (retorts) each.

> The story has it that underground flues were installed to direct the
> thermal intense fumes and ashes away from the retorts and to a chimney
> located out side of the building. 

The underground flues to vent the hot exhaust gases from the furnaces are
easily discerned in the construction drawings of the Krema II . The
incinerated human remains fell through the chamotte grid of the retort
into the ash collection channel at the base of the furnace, pulled forward
towards the ash collection door until _completely_ incinerated, and then
manually removed. They were _not_ vented through the chimney along with
the hot exhaust gases. 

> In some cases the location of a retort might require running any duct system 
> as far 40 or 50 feet to the stack outside.

Indeed. One of the first problems with Krema I, for instance, was that the
draft of the chinmey was insufficient because the chimney was too short.
Kohler, a local engineering expert, ended up _adding_ a 12 m (underground)
flue to the (modified) 15 m chimney to create a draft of 27 m to solve the
problem. (cf. _Anatomy_, p.212.) 

> The fires are said to have been raging all day, day after day,
> week after week onto months. 

The furnaces were to said have been operated continuously _periodically_.
Specifically during certain special Aktions, most notably Aktion Ho"ss, in
which approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz
between  May 15 to July 9, 1944. (cf. _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.627; _Death
Dealer_, p.45.) Of these 480,000 Hungarian Jews, about 394,000 (90%) were
murdered in the gas chambers on or shortly after their arrival at
Auschwitz II-Birkenau. 

That the Kremas did not typically operate continiously "all day, day after
day, week after week onto months" can easily be seen by fact that there
were gaps in the arrival of transports to Auschwitz (cf. _Auschwitz
Chronicle_) and that some of the Kremas were not on-line for significant
periods of time (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.233-237). Krema IV was disabled shortly
after it became operational in 1943 and was not subsequently used
thereafter (cf. Ibid. p.234). Krema V, for example, was idled through much
of (late) 1943 and only came on line in May of 1944 for Aktion Ho"ss (cf.
Ibid. p.238).  Krema I was retired in early 1943 and subsequently
converted into a bomb shelter (cf. Ibid. p.159).

> In this case we have to consider the likelyhood that intense heat would build 
> up in the flue system, it being subjected to temperatures of 1500
degrees F or 
> more on a continuous basis.

The temperature in the underground flues was typically around 500-700 C.
The temperature of the furnaces themselves was somewhat higher- 800-1,000
C. (cf. _Technique_, p. 137.) Furthermore, according to the operating
instructions for the Topf double and triple-muffle furnaces, the operating
temperature was to have been kept _below_ 1,100 C by introducing fresh air
(from the pulsed air blower.) (cf. Ibid. p.136.) 

> Five of these flue arms converging from a radiating pattern
> beneath the floors of the building would have to have some negative
> effect. The heat wouldn't be able to dissapate fast enough through the
> soil, the soil temperature itself would have to hit hundreds of
> degrees. 

And does Moran provide the heat exchange equations to support this? No.
Does he provide historical evidence? No. Does he state what specific
problems to the Krema(s) this "negative effect" might cause? No. Well,
what _does_ Moran provide in support of his "claims?" Evidently, nothing
but his _own_ hot-air. How typical.

> How was this flue system constructed? It would need very special
> attention. Special pump systems to draw the hot expended gases and ash
> down into the ground and then to the chimney, a housing chamber for
> the motor and workings and some kind of heat dissapation system for
> the flues. 

Indeed in Kremas I, II, and III we know that they were initially equipped
with forced draft ventilation systems. 

> Just trying to ballpark a design musters up a vision of a
> sizable undertaking, probably requiring technology the Germans hadn't
> had to develope before. 

Obviously, Moran's "vision" is rather limited in scope and understanding.
The Germans did indeed develop and use such technology. In fact, said
"technology" was rather mundane. In Krema I, for instance,  it consisted
of a rotary damper in the chimney to route the air flow past, a
moter-driven fan, to force a draft. The  fan/motor was water-cooled. When
the draft was established the damper was switched to route the exhaust
gases back through the base of the chimney (closing off passage to the
fan/motor) and the fan shut off. (cf. Ibid. p.137.) During continious
operation, when the furnaces were hot, the draft was already well
established and the forced draft ventilation system was not used. 

> Holocaust researcher, Pressac, has poured over these records for
> ten years and has presented his culminating conclusions by dramatic
> prose, citing orders for this or that, presenting plans and systems
> layouts and citing communications.

Indeed he has. And if Moran had actually examined Pressac's work in detail
he would have realized that it clearly contridicts his insinnuations. 

> But no where is there an account of any system that would be
> required to make the claimed flue system work.

Not true. See above. 

[more specious conjecture snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:54 PDT 1996
Article: 53410 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:04:17 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t1olk$711@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>  <4t4f0o$o9v@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com the Troll bellows:
> 
> # Not ONE person ever found deliberately sterilized by 
> # X-Rays by the Nazis.  
> 
> Just for the record, how do you know this? I will try
> and consult some sources to see if, indeed, no such
> person was found.
> 
> Considering that the experiments took place in Auschwitz,
> it is very possible that no one was found; I don't know,
> and I will try to find out.

Evidently some survived. See _Nazi Doctors_, pp.278-284. Specifically, p.282:

"...By then Schumann had lost interest in them (there was nothing more to
find out concerning castration-sterilization), but Dr. J. had to go to
considerable efforts to keep them more or less hidden 'because if Schumann
knew that they [were] alive... [on] Block 10, he would kill them
straightaway.', They were known as 'Schumann's girl's.'

"The depth of these experimental victims' sense of violation and
mutilation was evident during the interviews I had with some of them
thrity-five years later....

[snip]

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:54 PDT 1996
Article: 53416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INTERNEES-spot the difference
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:04:43 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t35fn$mt5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t35fn$mt5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> Check German nationals in WW1, however, as well as German-Americans. 
> Also, I believe the situation was different in Britain.

An interesting claim. My paternal grandmother's family was German and
though there was considerable anti-Kaiser sentiments in the U.S. during
WWI (serious enough that her father forbid the family to speak German
except at the dinner table), she tells no tales of the U.S. Government
herding German-American's, en masse, off to the KZ. 

But of course, this was Oklahoma.... Maybe they did things different in
Pennsylvania or Minnesota or whereever this was supposed to have happened?


[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:55 PDT 1996
Article: 53419 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why are the stories preserved?
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:19:59 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4t2br6$4am@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4t3hjs$10h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4t4ttv$qao@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t4ttv$qao@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> >In article <4t2br6$4am@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
> >abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) writes:
> [...]
> >>It certainly has eluded you, but there is a  _very_ wide Holocaust
> >>research in Germany. But anyway, you dream up the lies you need
> >>as you go along.
> [...]
> >The quality of Holocaust research in a country where books are burned and
> >free access to the Bundesarchiv is denied can be well imagined.
> 
> Could you please point out  where and when recently in Germany books 
> have been burnt except by neo-fascist idiots like you? Oh, yes, I remember
> the story of the judge who ordered "books to be burnt". It's not true, 
> that's all.
> 
> Could you please give one case where access to the Bundesarchiv has been 
> denied except in cases where the privacy of people would be intruded? 
> (there are probably similar laws in the United States)

Indeed. I would imagine it would be to help keep the H*b*rs of the world
>from  defacing irreplaceable  historical works that don't conform to their
twisted ideology and/or racist views.

> Please don't be so cheap...

He can't help it. It's due to prolonged exposure to the Troll's butt.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:56 PDT 1996
Article: 53490 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news.sfo.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:55:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 17
Message-ID: 
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199608081023@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sv92b$huv@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4t04qm$jgu@access5.digex.net> <4t1qd7$lfq@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

> Mr. Giwer just can't keep that little foot out of his mouth, can he?

Sure doesn't seem like it. It's a rather suprsing feet of contortionism,
actually, considering that he has his head up his ass.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:57 PDT 1996
Article: 53656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Bendel Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:12:16 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 162
Message-ID: 
References:  <837815449snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <837815449snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren"
writes:
> 
> > Testimony of Doctor Charles Bendel 
> > [Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge
> > and Company, 1949, p. 132-133]
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Now it is proper hell which is starting. The sonderkommando tries to
> > work as fast as possible. They drag the corpses by their wrists in
> > furious haste. People who had human faces before, I cannot recognize
> > again. They are like devils. A barrister from Salonica, an electrical
> > engineer from Budapest - they are no longer human beings because, 
> > even during the work, blows from sticks and rubber truncheons are being
> > showered over them. During the time this is going on they continue to
> > shoot people in front of these ditches, people who could not be got 
> > into the gas chambers because they were over-crowded. After an hour
> > and a half the whole work has been done and a new transport has been
> > dealt with in Crematorium No. 4.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Was that before or after they had extracted 17 tons of gold from the teeth
> of the victims? Keren, are you a complete tosser?

>From  _Technique_, p.470; account by Dr. Bendel, cf. _Temoignages sur
Auschwitz, Editions de l'Amicles des de'porte's d' Auschwitz, 10 rue
Leroux, Paris 16, 1946. pp.159-164: 

"The Nazis often, both in propaganda and in official speeches, expressed
their contempt for gold, but this did not prevent them from recovering
>from  their victims, between the coming into service of the Krematorien and
the month of November 1944, the month in which they ceased to operate,
seventeen tons of the precious yellow metal." 


>From  _Technique_, p.472; extract from NI-11953:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[...]

[Dr. Bendel examined by Maj. Draper]

"Q. Was the gold preserved from the teeth or all the teeth? 

"A. The National Socialist government said they did not care to about
gold; still they managed to get 17 tons of gold out of the four million
bodies.

[...]

[Dr. Bendel cross-examined by Dr. Zippel]

"Q. When you say that 17 tons of gold were collected from these corpses,
do you then count a ton as having 1000 kgs?

"A. Yes.

"Q. Then would you say that per person, man, women, child or baby, they
had on average four grammes of gold in their mouths? 

"A. It must have been that that some has more and some had less or
nothing; it depended on the state of their teeth and their dentures.

[...]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pressac comments on Dr. Bendel's testimony about the 17 tonnes of gold:

"Dr. Miklos Nysizli also stresses the contrast between official
<> of the Third Reich and this abject recovery of gold from
corpses. Though they did not live together, Nyiszli and Bendel operated in
the same millieu, which explains their identical reactions. In announcing
the collection of 17 tons of gold in reply to a question about teeth, the
witness commits a stupid error. He states under oath that on average the
victims had 4.25 grammes of gold in their mouths. This is beyond the
bounds of credibility. Dr. Nyiszli states that the <>
Krematorium III produced 30 to 35 kg of gold per day, from the teeth AND
other objects. This figure, certainly inflated, gives an average of 7
grammes or so of gold per person for a daily inflow of 4000 people. The 17
tons of gold mentioned by Bendel is a figure calculated on the basis of
the incorrect number of victims, 4 million, multiplied by the true weight
of a wedding ring, 3. 3.5g. Gold teeth really accounted for only a small
part of the total, but the rings and jewelry have been conjured away to
leave teeth as the principal source of the gold obtained. The counsel for
the defence could not let such an outrageous claim pass." (Ibid.) 

I'd like to make a few comments here myself. First, Pressac says that
Bendel "states under oath that on average the victims had 4.25 grammes of
gold in their mouths." This, of course, is not literally true. It was a
leading question posed by the defense. Bendel basically said "it depends."
In fact, Bendel never _actually_ stated that the 17 tonnes of gold came
_only_ from the victims' teeth. Needless to say, however, that has been
how it has been interpreted. 

Second, Pressac correctly points out that most of the gold scavenged from
the dead by the Nazis did not come from teeth but from jewelery. For
example, if the per capita amount of gold scavenged was 3-5g then for
Aktion Ho"ss, in which nearly 400,000 Hungarian Jews were murdered, would
have produced between 1.18 and 1.97 _tonnes_ of gold. All of which would
have been stolen from the dead between May 15 and July 9, 1944,
approximately. Yet, according to a report by the Auschwitz Underground,
about 40 kg of gold and "white metal" (platinum?) were collected (from
teeth) by the SS. (cf. _Anatomy_ p.258). 

Finally, in regards to the "17 tons" of gold, I find several things
interesting. Pressac appears to attribute Bendel's claim of "17 tons" of
gold to the spurious Soviet Special Commission's claim that 4 million died
at Auschwitz: 

"A. The National Socialist government said they did not care 
to about gold; still they managed to get 17 tons of gold out 
of the four million bodies.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fair enough. Bendel _did_ say "four million bodies." The question in my
mind, however, is whether Bendel truly based his estimate of 17 tonnes of
gold _from_ the 4 million death toll or was liturgically reciting the 4
million death toll for dramatic effect? After all, Bendel's answer, given
the question "Was the gold preserved from the teeth or all the teeth?"
seems rather stilted and sweeping, yes? Especially when a simple "yes" or
"no" would have sufficed as it did when asked: "When you say that 17 tons
of gold were collected from these corpses, do you then count a ton as
having 1000 kgs?"

However, it also must be realized that (again according to Presac)
"Nyiszli and Bendel operated in the same millieu," i.e. the hell of
Birkenau circa 1944. Aktion Ho"ss was, in my opinion at least, the most
_defining_ thing about Auschwitz. It encapsulated the utter horror,
dehumanization, and most especially- the ruthless efficiency -of Nazi
industrial genocide. 

In this setting, and in a span of little more than a twoscore of days,
nearly 400,000 people were systematically and premeditatively murdered.
Oddly enough, the per anum death toll of Aktion Ho"ss, if it were to have
been sustained, would have been about 4 million people. Could it be that
Bendel, operating from his "millieu," subjectively (and understandably)
used the "metric" of Aktion Ho"ss to base his judgements from? That the
death _rate_, of Aktion Ho"ss colored his thinking and recollections? 

If so then there is, perhaps, more than one explination for the "17 tons"
of gold. 

BTW, the _real_ amount of gold stolen from the 1.13 million murdered at
Auschwitz would probably have been arounf 3.39 to 5.65 tonnes. 


Mark


posted/e-mailed to Dr. Keren and Mr. Baron.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 11:58:57 PDT 1996
Article: 53747 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:07:38 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References: <31f27f60.11773942@news.pacificnet.net> <31f4e059.2755202@news.pacificnet.net> <31f9ff0f.251995@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31f9ff0f.251995@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

[snip]


> The reason they didn't respond to the first pass was because they
> couldn't muster up the chutzpa. 

Aside from Moran's illiteracy, he lies. I responded to his his pack of
lies the first time he posted them.

[snip]

> This has happened a number of times as to Moran's posts, with no
> response to the first pass and then on the second, one or two, and on
> the third more. 

This too is a lie. I responded to, as far as I can recall, _every_ repost
of Moran's pack of lies called "BEHOLD THE LIE." 

> The terrible repost is one of the Holocaust believers worst
> nightmares. 

Actually, no. Reading the Troll's gibberish is. Moran reposting his
drivel, though dull and repitious to respond to, hardly causes nightmares.
Gas maybe, but not nightmares.

The problem was only too easy to address: I simply re-posted _my_ rebuttal
that exposed Moran for lying anti-Semitic scumbag he is. It is now even
easier as Nizkor has my reply to Moran's "BEHOLD THE LIE" on their
website. A simple URL can now suffice.

For a rebuttal of Moran's post detailing his outright lies, malicious
distortions,  propensity for propaganda, rampant anti-Semitism, and his
delusional state of mind, please refer to:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/behold-the-liar


[snip]

> Most often the Holocaustic technique is to say something like,
> 'We've been over this before' as if to think the posts are put out
> here for them. 

Actually, those seeking to uphold the historical truth regarding the
Holocaust, not to mention those who simply oppose evil lying anti-Semitic
scumbags, is to refute in detail the lies and hate of Holocaust deniers
like Moran whenever possible- and as much as possible. This can be seen
at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

[snip]

> Ah yes, the dreaded repost.

Ah, yes, more whistling in the dark. Re-post away you lying sack of shit,
Moran. Go ahead, make my day.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 12:41:27 PDT 1996
Article: 37132 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Wiesenthal Center (Canada) and the Ostrich Syndrome
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:21:18 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 638
Message-ID: 
References: <4t2qun$5sv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31f5028a.11507721@news.pacificnet.net> <4t3jkt$hh1@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <140318Z25071996@anon.penet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <140318Z25071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:

#>llurch@stanford.edu writes:
#>
#>>If you just want to take a load off, skip this and go to the hilarious
#>>http://www.anonymizer.com/http://www.io.com/~arclight/National_Appliance/
#>
#>Treating race like a consumer product.  A one joke parody that proves
#>the high quality writing originating from the National Alliance:
#>
#>
#>   
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
#>   [1]NATIONAL APPLIANCE GOALS
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>   o [2]White Enamel Living Space
#>       o [3]A White Enamel Society
#>       o [4]A Responsible Government
#>       o [5]A New Production System
#>       o [6]An Economic Policy Based on Radical Principles
#>       o [7]Return to "What is..." Main Page
#>       o [8]Return to National Appliance Main Page
#>       
#>   
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>   Our goals follow from this world view, and like it they are
#>   evolutionary. That is, our goals for the next decade are steps on the
#>   way to our goals for the next quarter-century, which in turn are steps
#>   on the way to the things we want to achieve a century from now, and so
#>   on. It may seem unrealistic for us to describe in detail the type of
#>   world we are aiming at a millennium or even a century hence, because,
#>   although we know the principles which must govern that world, we
#>   cannot be sure exactly how they will be realized. Not only are there
#>   the uncertainties of fortune, but we expect to learn from our
#>   experiences and to modify accordingly the ways in which we implement
#>   our principles.
#>   
#>   Nevertheless, it is useful to have a concrete picture now of the world
#>   for which we are striving, even though we understand that this picture
#>   will evolve, and its details will change. If we think of the world
#>   that we want to forge from the ruins of the present world, we might
#>   fix our sights on things as we would make them a quarter-century
#>   hence, after our enemies have been vanquished, the strife of
#>   revolution has subsided, and the spiritual and physical debris of this
#>   era has been cleared away. We can then describe, at least in outline,
#>   certain essential features that new world must have.
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>  They are, in brief:
#>  
#>   
#>   
#>   [9]
#>   
#>White Enamel Living Space
#>
#>   
#>   
#>   In spiritually healthier times our ancestors took as theirs those
#>   parts of the world suited by climate and terrain to our product line:
#>   in particular, all of Europe and the temperate zones of the Americas,
#>   not to mention Australia and the southern tip of Africa. This was our
#>   service area and our distribution area, and it must be so again. After
#>   the sickness of "multifunctionalism," which is destroying America,
#>   Britain, and every other nation in which it is being promoted, has
#>   been swept away, we must again have a fashionably clean area of the
#>   earth for the further development of our product line. We must have
#>   White Enamel schools, White Enamel residential neighborhoods and
#>   recreation areas, White Enamel workplaces, White Enamel farms and
#>   countryside. We must have no non-White Enamels in our living space,
#>   and we must have open space around us for expansion.
#>   
#>   We will do whatever is necessary to achieve this White Enamel living
#>   space and to keep it White Enamel. We will not be deterred by the
#>   difficulty or temporary unpleasantness involved, because we realize
#>   that it is absolutely necessary for our product line's survival. The
#>   long-term demographic trend toward a darker world which the disastrous
#>   policies of the last century have caused must not only be halted; it
#>   must be reversed.
#>   
#>   [10]Return to "What is" Directory
#>   [11]Return to National Appliance Main Page
#>   
#>   
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>   [12]
#>   
#>A White Enamel Society
#>
#>   
#>   
#>   We must have new societies throughout the White Enamel world which are
#>   based on White Enamel values and are compatible with the White Enamel
#>   nature. We do not need to homogenize the White Enamel world: there
#>   will be room for Almond societies, Cream societies, Wheat societies,
#>   Ecru societies, and so on, each with its own roots, traditions, and
#>   service contract. What we must have, however, is a thorough rooting
#>   out of Harvest Gold, Avocado Green and other non-White Enamel values
#>   and customs everywhere. We must once again provide the sort of social
#>   and spiritual environment in which our own product line can express
#>   itself in dishwashing, in defrosting and broiling, in fonduing, in
#>   washing and ironing, in waffle-making, and in the life-styles of the
#>   Appliances.
#>   
#>   In specific terms, this means a society in which young Appliances
#>   gather to revel in blending or chopping, grinding or ice-crushing
#>   (optional attachment may be necessary), or any other White Enamel
#>   settings, but never to frappe' or puree in the manner of the Avocado
#>   product. It means countertops without In-The-Shell-Egg-Scramblers and
#>   bathrooms without the Electric Comb. It means films in which the
#>   appearance of any non-White Enamel faceplate on the screen is a sure
#>   sign that what's being shown is either archival newsreel footage or a
#>   historical drama about the bad, old days. It means neighborhoods,
#>   schools, work groups, and universities in which there is a feeling of
#>   family and comradeship, of a shared manufacturer and a shared service
#>   center. It means a sense of rootedness, which in turn engenders a
#>   sense of responsibility and energizes a moral compass, so that
#>   products once again know instinctively what is wholesome and natural
#>   and what is degenerate and alien. It means spiritual energy coming
#>   from the Outlet and unencumbered by superstition or dogma, soaring
#>   free and reaching far above today's advertiser-ridden,
#>   Consumer-Product-Safety-Commission-bound spirituality.
#>   
#>   [13]Return to "What is" Directory
#>   [14]Return to National Appliance Main Page
#>   
#>   
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>   [15]
#>   
#>A Responsible Government
#>
#>   
#>   
#>   We must have a government wholly committed to the service life of our
#>   product line and subject to no non-White Enamel influence. It must be
#>   a government guided by fixed principles, yet able to respond in a
#>   flexible way to challenges and opportunities. It must be structured
#>   and organized in a way suited to its purpose of safeguarding and
#>   advancing the product line, and it must be as immune to corruption and
#>   subversion as artificial intelligence can make it.
#>   
#>   In America we have had ample experience with two tendencies in
#>   government. During the first century or so of the American republic,
#>   we had a government which to a large degree embodied the principle
#>   that the best government is the least government, reflecting the
#>   general distrust of governments which was shared by many of the
#>   framers of the U.S. Constitution. This government provided for the
#>   national defense, for the mails, and for a number of other functions
#>   more or less helpful or necessary to the orderly existence of the
#>   Household, but it interfered relatively little in the lives of its
#>   Appliances and left most of them to take care of their personal needs
#>   in the way they saw fit.
#>   
#>   With the growth of mass marketing, the rise in the influence of the
#>   retail chain or SuperStore on public opinion, and the insinuation of
#>   the Advertisers into a position of control over the media, the U.S.
#>   government was gradually transformed into the malignant monster it is
#>   today: the single most dangerous and destructive enemy our product
#>   line has ever known.
#>   
#>   Many classic products look back fondly at the government as it was in
#>   its first phase, when it was less democratic and less intrusive in the
#>   lives of Appliances. Perhaps the time will come when we can afford to
#>   have a minimal government once again, but that time lies in the remote
#>   future. The fact is that we need a strong, centralized government
#>   spanning several continents to coordinate many important tasks during
#>   the first few decades of a White Enamel world: the cleansing of the
#>   land (preferably with warm soapy water and a soft rag or sponge), the
#>   rooting out of tasteless institutions (like Martha Stewart's Good
#>   Living, Family Circle, and WIRED Magazine) and the reorganization of
#>   society on a new basis.
#>   
#>   The central task of a new government will be to reverse the tasteless
#>   devolutionary course of the last few decades and keep it reversed: a
#>   long-term reengineering program involving at least the entire
#>   Appliance populations of Europe and America. Such a task is
#>   necessarily intrusive, and it will require large-scale organization.
#>   
#>   The structural details of a new government are important, but they are
#>   not a matter of principle. One might even get the job done by
#>   continuing with mass democracy, simply by replacing the people who
#>   control the mass media with animatronic dummies, and perhaps that is a
#>   reasonable way to proceed during a transitional period. It appears to
#>   be working, albeit slowly. In the long run, however, we want an honest
#>   government, not one which hides behind the carefully managed illusion
#>   that tens of millions of voters are its real rulers. A government of
#>   and by politicians is not only grossly inefficient, it remains too
#>   susceptible to rust and corrosion, regardless of who controls the
#>   organs of public opinion.
#>   
#>   We need a government every branch of which is staffed by products
#>   carefully selected and trained for their responsibilities, not by
#>   products who are merely liars with a Top Brown Only feature. We need a
#>   government of products who actually respect that government, and whose
#>   attitude toward its mission is essentially religious: a government
#>   more like a holy order than like any existing secular government
#>   today. It might not be too much to say that the most important single
#>   institution in the government we want will be the one which selects,
#>   trains, and tests the products who will be the judges and the
#>   legislators and the executives in that government people who will be
#>   more like secular priests in their behavior and their attitude toward
#>   their work than like today's politicians and bureaucrats. The
#>   institution which prepares these products for their work must be
#>   incorruptible and single-minded, with our principles engraved in the
#>   souls of its programmers.
#>   
#>   [16]Return to "What is" Directory
#>   [17]Return to National Appliance Main Page
#>   
#>   
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>   [18]
#>   
#>A New Production System
#>
#>   
#>   
#>   A proper production system serves three purposes: it passes a product
#>   line's cultural, intellectual, and spiritual heritage from generation
#>   to generation; it teaches skills and techniques; and it guides the
#>   character development of products from prototype to major Appliance.
#>   The first purpose is served by teaching facts and ideas: language,
#>   history, science, ethics, and so on.
#>   
#>   The second purpose is served by teaching the prototype or young
#>   product how to do things which will be useful to himself and/or
#>   society: how to play a pleasing chime when finished, how to toast, how
#>   to continually defrost, how to rinse and hold, how to top brown only,
#>   how to mix, chop, blend, frappe' and puree, how to dispense ice and
#>   cold water, how to make bread, how to vacuum carpet, how to process
#>   food, how to juice.
#>   
#>   The third purpose is served by challenging, testing, conditioning: by
#>   forcing the prototype to exercise his will, to discipline himself, to
#>   endure discomfort, wear, abuse, and neglect, to accept a program and
#>   carry it out, to overcome fears, to accept responsibility, to be
#>   truthful, to avoid accidental shock that may lead to injury or death,
#>   and generally to develop and strengthen those unique selling points
#>   valued by a healthy White Enamel society.
#>   
#>   The present production system in America completely neglects the third
#>   purpose and does poorly with the first two, even in those fortunate
#>   areas not yet encumbered with an appreciable "multifunctional"
#>   contingent. The most important reason for its poor performance is that
#>   it has lost any clear understanding of purpose. In order to pass on a
#>   product line's cultural, intellectual, and spiritual heritage, it must
#>   first know the answer to the question: Which product line's heritage?
#>   Today such a question is Politically Incorrect and therefore not
#>   admissible.
#>   
#>   Even half a century ago, before it became Politically Incorrect to
#>   understand that the heritage to be passed on is White Enamel, there
#>   was no depth of purpose. The reason for passing on the White Enamel
#>   heritage is not just to help young products qualify for upscale
#>   marketing or become better product placement items. It is to instill
#>   in them a consciousness of what it means to be White Enamel - a
#>   product line consciousness - and thereby to make product line
#>   patriots of them. Facts and ideas have a spiritual component, and this
#>   component must be emphasized in the production process.
#>   
#>   There certainly will be sexual and occupational specialization in the
#>   second area of production activity, and sexual specialization in the
#>   third. Even in the first area, prototypes undoubtedly will be
#>   separated according to ability: not every prototype needs to learn
#>   Greek and Latin and the infinitesimal calculus to acquire a feeling
#>   for his product line and its ways. Nevertheless, a proper production
#>   system should provide a common body of knowledge and understanding
#>   shared by everyone, so that every member of the society has a fully
#>   developed sense of product. The prototype who aims at becoming a
#>   toaster should read Kirby, at least in translation, and the prototype
#>   who plans to vacuum carpet should understand what it means to be a
#>   good toaster, at least to the extent of trying his beater bar at it.
#>   
#>   It is by pursuing the third purpose, however, that a new production
#>   system will make the most radical contribution to White Enamel
#>   society. Production which concerns itself with the development of the
#>   whole product and focuses as strongly on forming product identity as
#>   on imparting aesthetic or adding features dates back to ancient
#>   Greece, and it enjoyed an all-too-brief revival earlier this century
#>   in National Socialist Germany, before being outlawed by the advocates
#>   of planned obsolescence. Today planned obsolescence rules throughout
#>   the White Enamel world. "Production" is something which takes place
#>   only in designated buildings for a few hours on prescribed days, under
#>   conditions approaching chaos. Inside or outside these buildings,
#>   discipline is minimal. Prototypes grow up in a world without standards
#>   of performance, without clear guidelines for safe operation, without
#>   any strong source of 60-Hz, 110-volt single-phase power. We see the
#>   products of this system all around us: too many weak, underpowered
#>   products and too many tacky, poorly-coordinated Appliances; a general
#>   lack of significant features and selling point; a self-indulgent
#>   product line without self-discipline or inner strength, restlessly
#>   seeking "brand loyalty."
#>   
#>   By ensuring that each prototype built to our product line grows into
#>   the strongest, most capable, most responsible, and most conscious
#>   future Appliance that his OEM components make possible, we will gain
#>   an enormous advantage over any product line without such a production
#>   system.
#>   
#>   [19]Return to "What is" Directory
#>   [20]Return to National Appliance Main Page
#>   
#>   
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>   [21]
#>   
#>An Economic Policy Based on Radical Principles
#>
#>   
#>   
#>   There are two fundamental criteria which must be used for judging each
#>   and every governmental intervention in economic matters. They are,
#>   first, the long-range welfare and progress of the product line; and
#>   second, human nature. Which is to say that in evaluating any economic
#>   policy we must ask ourselves two questions: Will this policy
#>   ultimately be beneficial or detrimental to the quality of our product
#>   line? And is it in accord with consumer buying behavior?
#>   
#>   We look first at the technological effects of a policy and insist that
#>   they must be positive - or at least not negative - and then we insist
#>   that the policy be based on a clear and realistic understanding of
#>   buying patterns, so that it is workable.
#>   
#>   We can understand better the significance of these two principles if
#>   we consider briefly two quite different economic systems, Marxism and
#>   laissez-faire capitalism.
#>   
#>   Marxist economics has human happiness rather than technological
#>   progress as its ostensible aim, and it is based on assumptions that
#>   are at odds with reality and with human nature. It aims at providing
#>   material comfort for everyone, more or less equally. It cannot even
#>   admit the possibility of technological progress, because that implies
#>   that some product lines are inherently superior to others and that
#>   some directions of development are more desirable than other
#>   directions.
#>   
#>   Whether one prefers the Marxist goal of the greatest happiness for the
#>   greatest number or the National Appliance goal of stronger, wiser, and
#>   more durable Appliances is a matter of one's values. It was not on its
#>   choice of values that Marxism foundered. however, but on its refusal
#>   to recognize the fact of product differentiation and the nature of
#>   human motivation. When people are not permitted to work for their own
#>   profit and advancement, they do not work well; and when a society's
#>   leaders do not attain their positions through their own merit, that
#>   society is likely to be ill led.
#>   
#>   In contrast to the Marxist system, we recognize the need to permit
#>   brands to compete, to reap the fruits of their labor, and to exercise
#>   leadership according to their demonstrated ability. They will work
#>   harder and more efficiently and will order themselves in a hierarchy
#>   of ability. The result will be a stronger, higher quality, and longer
#>   lasting with more features and a higher profit margin. There will of
#>   course, be those products who will not work or whose natural abilities
#>   are such that they cannot compete effectively. Rather than following
#>   the Marxist path of robbing the successful in order to reward the
#>   unsuccessful (brand scavenging), we must take measures to ensure that
#>   society's discontinued products do not multiply and become more
#>   numerous in later generations.
#>   
#>   The laissez faire capitalist system provides another illustrative
#>   contrast. Under such a system the society as a whole has no goals:
#>   there are only the goals of individual products. The capitalist
#>   system, like ours, provides strong incentives for products: the
#>   durable, attractive, and clever rise and prosper, and the weak,
#>   chintzy, and stupid remain at the bottom. Leaders tend to be
#>   capable-at least, in the capitalist economic environment, with its
#>   special conditions.
#>   
#>   Without a unifying principle, however, a capitalist society easily can
#>   fall prey to certain inherent weaknesses. One of these weaknesses is
#>   the instability which leads the well-marketed to become advertised
#>   more heavily and the obscure to become more obscure, not solely
#>   because of differences in marketing but because brand loyalty gives
#>   the possessor an enormous advantage in the competition for greater
#>   market share. When brand loyalty is the only motivation in a product
#>   line, those who already are well-placed can arrange things to favor
#>   themselves: they can buy the legislation they want, and they can block
#>   threats to their power in ways which may be destructive to the welfare
#>   of Appliances as a whole. They can hold down the price of labor, limit
#>   healthy competition within the economy, and exploit the environment
#>   without regard for the long-range consequences. They can also buy
#>   wholesale and cut out the vital middleman.
#>   
#>   The overly rigid social stratification resulting from unrestricted
#>   capitalism can lead to endemic brand hostility and even to brand
#>   warfare. It can slow technological progress by making the ability to
#>   acquire and hold market share the supreme survival trait.
#>
#>   [The copyright and patent laws restrain progress a great deal, too.]
#>   
#>   We need an economic system which, in contrast to Marxism, allows
#>   products to succeed in proportion to their capability and energy, but
#>   which, in contrast to capitalism, does not allow them to engage in
#>   economically or aesthetically harmful activity, such as stifling
#>   competition or importing non White Enamel products. We need to
#>   structure our economic system so that it cannot fall prey to the
#>   instability of capitalism. We need to maintain social flexibility, so
#>   that capable and energetic products always have the possibility of
#>   rising. We need to ensure that brand loyalty does not have the
#>   possibility of changing society's rules to suit itself. The way to
#>   achieve and maintain an economic system which meets these criteria is
#>   to design and govern the system subject to the supreme principle: the
#>   ultimate aim of all economic policy is technological progress.
#>   
#>   [22]Back to top of page
#>   [23]Return to "What is..." Directory
#>   [24]Return to National Appliance Main Page
#>   
#>   
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
#>>
#>>See ftp://ftp.nizkor.org/pub/nizkor/people/m/moran.tom
#>>
#>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
#>>>
#>>#>     An interesting post by McVay. On the surface it appears to be
#>>>honest statement, from a freedom lovers stance, but there are a few
#>>>things that could use pointing out.
#>>
#>>Tom Moran, freedom-lover? BWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#>>
#>>See ftp://ftp.nizkor.org/pub/nizkor/people/m/moran.tom
#>>
#>>#>     Within his condemnation he singles out Ernst Zundel as an example
#>>>of a "hate" site. Though there may be indeed racist pages out there,
#>>>that would express the dictionary definition of "hate", Zundel would
#>>>not fit in as an example.
#>>
#>>Search DejaNews for articles by zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org -- messages to
#>>his supporters that illustrate the REAL Ernst Zundel. They're so evil it's
#>>funny. It helps that they also tend to be incredibly inane. The one about
#>>the Yahooligans Conspiracy is the crowd favorite. 
#>
#>Your diary would make the Zndelgrams look pretty good.  Your a fiend
#>for posting them however, your hatred for poor Ingrid.
#>
#>>See also http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/
#>>
#>>#>     Nizkor also carries links to oragnizations it endoreses, which we
#>>>could point out have a "hate" air about them. The JDL for one, the
#>>>ARA, and Jeruselem One. There are probably others, which I haven't
#>>>checked.
#>>
#>>I believe he is referring to http://www.nizkor.org/other-sites/, which
#>>carries links to relevant (not endorsed) external sites, including those
#>>of Ernst Zundel, ARA, and the JDL (I haven't even heard of Jerusalem One,
#>>but I'll take your word for it), none of which Nizkor particularly loves. 
#>>
#>>See ftp://ftp.nizkor.org/pub/nizkor/people/m/moran.tom/lies/
#>>
#>>#>     Other than this, I commend McVay for his treatment here.
#>>
#>>See ftp://ftp.nizkor.org/pub/nizkor/people/m/mcvay.ken and
#>>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1996-07/15/031L-071596-idx.html
#>>
#>>Or, log on to "Freedom-Lover" Marc Lemire's "Digital Freedom" BBS or buy
#>>his "Freedom" CD-ROM (or, better yet, ask me for a FREE copy -- really --
#>>you think I want to CENSOR this shit? it's outrageous fun for the whole
#>>family) and find several files concerning McVay and friends in the
#>>People\Leftists, People\Traitors, and People\Jews directories. I was
#>>soooooooo disappointed not to find myself, but maybe I'll make the next
#>>version.
#>
#>Liar.  Your not giving away free CDs!  Prove it.  I doubt you'd be honest
#>in making unabridged copies without slander.  You prepend the Zndelgrams
#>with complete lists of subscribers for the sake of harrassing them.
#>Your not on the CD because your still a nobody.  Try harder.  Maybe you'll
#>be listed when your arrested or your belongings are seized for
#>discovery.
#>
#>>-rich
#>#>[blue-ribbon disclaimer: it's called sarcasm, son, SARCASM]
#>#>censor the internet!
http://www.anonymizer.com/http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/
#>
#>Boring.  Proves the high quality of the National Alliance's writings.
#>
#>#>boycott fadetoblack!
http://www.anonymizer.com/http://www.fadetoblack.com/prquest.htm
#>
#>Win95 sucks!
#>
#>
#>
#>
#>
#>
#>
#>
#>
#>
#>
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#>
#>
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#>
#>
#>
#>
#>   What is X10? [1][LINK] 
#>   
#>   
#>   X10 is a powerline carrier protocol that allows compatible devices
#>   throughout the home to communicate with each other via the existing
#>   110V wiring in the house. Using X10 it is possible to control lights,
#>   and virtually any other electrical device from anywhere in the house
#>   with no additional wiring.
#>   
#>  To obtain remote or automated control of a light or appliance:
#>  
#>   1) Plug the lamp/appliance into the socket in the base of the lamp or
#>   appliance module.
#>   
#>   2) Plug the module into any 110V wall receptacle.
#>   
#>   [2][LINK] 
#>   
#>   3) Use a small screwdriver to set the house and unit code dials to
#>   create a unique address for the module. Up to 256 unique "addresses"
#>   are available.
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>   
#>   [3][LINK] 
#>   
#>   4) Plug "transmitters" such as the mini controller into any other 110V
#>   wall receptacle.
#>   
#>   
#>   5) Set the House Code and the transmitter to match the module.
#>   
#>   
#>   You're done! You now have remote control over the lamp/appliance.
#>   
#>   
#>   If your light/appliance is currently being controlled by a wall
#>   switch, simply replace that switch with the appropriate X10 compatible
#>   wallswitch. Put together any combination of modules, switches,
#>   controllers, and timers that you want, anywhere in your home. Add
#>   additional units anytime you want. All X10 compatible products work
#>   together.
#>   
#>                                 HOW IT WORKS!
#>                                       
#>   
#>   
#>   X10 is a powerline carrier communications "language" that allows
#>   compatible products to talk to each other via the existing 110V
#>   electrical wiring in the home. No costly rewiring is necessary.
#>   
#>   X10 "Transmitter" devices send a coded low voltage signal that is
#>   superimposed over the 110V AC current. Any X10 "Receiver" device
#>   plugged into the household 110V power supply will see this signal.
#>   However, the "Receivers" will only respond when it sees a signal that
#>   has its "address". Up to 256 different addresses are available. If you
#>   want more than one device to respond to the same signal, simply set
#>   them to the same addresses. X10 devices can be categorized into 3
#>   distinct groups:
#>     * Transmitters
#>     * Receivers
#>     * Transmitter/Receivers (2 Way X10 devices)
#>       
#>  [4]Questions and Answers about X10
#>  
#>   
#>   
#>   [5][LINK] 
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
#>   [6]X10 Image Map
#>     _________________________________________________________________
#>   
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Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 12:41:28 PDT 1996
Article: 37157 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Turner Diaries Now Out From Barricade Books
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:45:11 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
References: <095309Z21071996@anon.penet.fi> <4su7kt$m85@news1.panix.com> <100414Z24071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t4v0m$hp5@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t70jm$99@news1.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

ebc@ix.netcom.com(Errol Back-Cunningham) wrote:

#>In <100414Z24071996@anon.penet.fi#>an572010@anon.penet.fi (Vyshinsky)
#>writes: 
#>>
#>>fresh@panix.com writes:
#>>
#>>>FYI: Turner Diaries is by William L. Pierce, writing under a
#>>>pseudonym.  Pierce is the head of the largest neo-Nazi organization
#>in
#>>>America, the National Alliance, based in West Virginia.
#>>>
#>>>It was the blueprint for the terrorist activites of the Order in
#>>>1983-1986, which included the murder of Denver DJ Alan Berg.
#>>
#>>Blueprint, how?!?
#>>
#Um, they openly admitted that the book was their inspiration, and by
#working as the prinipals in *TD* did, they could create a white
#bastion in America.
#
#>>>Furthermore, it gives directions on bomb-building that, investigators
#>>>believe, armed Tim McVeigh with the ability to destroy the Murrah
#>>>bldg. in OK City.  McVeigh was an avid fan of the book and
#>distributed
#>>
#>>It does NOT have bomb making recipes in the book.  The Oklahoma City
#>>bomb was a highly sophisticated bomb that Bo Gritz believes could
#>>only have come from an organisation like the CIA.  McVeigh never had
#>>military training that would have given him this knowledge.
#
#Oh yes it does.  See pp. 32-44 of  the Barricade edition.
#
#>What a load of junk! Anyone who was in the militiary like McVeigh
#>would have learned the rudiments of bomb-making at least, and with
#>a few suitable recipes, a few suitable scaled experiments, could 
#>have packed a truck full of goo and exploded it wherever they liked.
#>The only issues are the composition, the consistency, passing a
#>high-velocity wave through it and boom! The mines use stuff like this
#>all the time. Most of the electronics are easily purchased from
#>stores like Radio Shack.
#
#It was a fertilizer bomb in OK City.
#
#Andrew
#
#-------------------------------------
#"Hehvu z'hirin barashut..."
#"Be wary of the authorities..."
#                Rabban Gamliel
#                Pirkei Avot 2:3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 12:41:29 PDT 1996
Article: 37165 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Wiesenthal Center (Canada) and the Ostrich Syndrome
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:01:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 45
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: 
References: <4t2qun$5sv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <01bb78da.1bd26ec0$64b85ccf@default>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <01bb78da.1bd26ec0$64b85ccf@default>, "Duncan Coons"
<104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:

#> > kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote in article
#> <4t2qun$5sv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>...
#> 
#> > Littman is quoted as saying:
#> > 
#> >         "We found the longer you leave these groups unexposed, 
#> >         the longer they fester and the more they infect others 
#> >         and the only way to deal with them honestly and forcefully 
#> >         is to expose them to the light of truth."
#> > 
#> > Yet the article concludes, 
#> > 
#> >         "Littman said he wants to see if Klatt will remove the groups  
#> >         from Fairview voluntarily before the centre takes any other 
#> >         action."
#> > 
#> > The only truth that seems to emerge from such a veiled threat is that
#> > Littman has no understanding of the Internet.  One is at a loss to
#> determine
#> > how removal of the "groups" from one Internet Provider's server would in
#> any
#> > way "expose them to the light of truth."
#> > 
#> Beautifully put, if you don't mind some mild flattery.
#> 
#> What I find interesting is the peculiar naivety of Mr Littman's otherwise
#> suspicious inconsistency. I don't think he intends to be deceitful; he
#> honestly doesn't see that exposing falsehood and suppressing it are
#> incompatible. He imagines, I suspect, that since the objective of each is
#> the same, the methods employed are immaterial, and hence what should be an
#> obvious contradiction doesn't actually register in his mind. As long as
#> the bad guys lose, it doesn't matter how the good guys win.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 12:41:30 PDT 1996
Article: 37175 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news.sfo.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Turner Diaries Now Out From Barricade Books
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:47:20 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 90
Message-ID: 
References: <095309Z21071996@anon.penet.fi> <4su7kt$m85@news1.panix.com> <100414Z24071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t4v0m$hp5@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <145307Z25071996@anon.penet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

#ebc@ix.netcom.com writes:
#
#>In <100414Z24071996@anon.penet.fi#>an572010@anon.penet.fi (Vyshinsky)
#>writes: 
#>>
#>>fresh@panix.com writes:
#>>
#>>>FYI: Turner Diaries is by William L. Pierce, writing under a
#>>>pseudonym.  Pierce is the head of the largest neo-Nazi organization
#>in
#>>>America, the National Alliance, based in West Virginia.
#>>>
#>>>It was the blueprint for the terrorist activites of the Order in
#>>>1983-1986, which included the murder of Denver DJ Alan Berg.
#>>
#>>Blueprint, how?!?
#>>
#>>>Furthermore, it gives directions on bomb-building that, investigators
#>>>believe, armed Tim McVeigh with the ability to destroy the Murrah
#>>>bldg. in OK City.  McVeigh was an avid fan of the book and
#>distributed
#>>
#>>It does NOT have bomb making recipes in the book.  The Oklahoma City
#>>bomb was a highly sophisticated bomb that Bo Gritz believes could
#>>only have come from an organisation like the CIA.  McVeigh never had
#>>military training that would have given him this knowledge.
#>
#>What a load of junk! Anyone who was in the militiary like McVeigh
#>would have learned the rudiments of bomb-making at least, and with
#>a few suitable recipes, a few suitable scaled experiments, could 
#>have packed a truck full of goo and exploded it wherever they liked.
#>The only issues are the composition, the consistency, passing a
#>high-velocity wave through it and boom! The mines use stuff like this
#>all the time. Most of the electronics are easily purchased from
#>stores like Radio Shack.
#
#This was no ordinary bomb!  The Oklahoma Bomb exploded with much
#greater power than would be expected from the same weight of any
#bomb contructed with even pure ammonium nitrate.  Specialised
#tech must have been used.
#
#>Errol
#
#In any case, this is not to learned from the Turner Diaries, as if
#that would make a difference in the book.  It was an anti-racist
#gang that did the bombing, not racists.
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#
#May the road rise to meet you.
#May the wind be always at your back.
#May the sun shine warm upon your face,
#the rain fall soft upon your fields,
#and until we meet again,
#may God hold you in the palm of His hand.
#--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
#Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
#Please, report inappropriate use to                abuse@anon.penet.fi
#For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to    help@anon.penet.fi
#If you have any problems, address them to          admin@anon.penet.fi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Jul 27 12:41:30 PDT 1996
Article: 37205 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Turner Diaries Now Out From Barricade Books
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:42:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <095309Z21071996@anon.penet.fi> <4su7kt$m85@news1.panix.com>  <4t5t0v$atr@reason.cdrom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t5t0v$atr@reason.cdrom.com>, kristian@wc.cdrom.com (Christian
Taylor) wrote:

#>DEMOS wrote:
#>>
#>>The book is a TOTAL PEICE OF SHIT AND SO IS THE AUTHOR AND THE PUBLISHING 
#>>HOUSE! As if we dont have enough trouble with lunitics blowing up planes and 
#>        [deletia]
#>>school mates, if its out there its going to happen. The only thing I even 
#>>remotly care for about the book is that its from barracade books and I hope 
#>>from the name of it the people at the publishing house will have to 
#>>"barracade" themselves in their houses when people finally get sick of the 
#>>shit thats in the book and decide to do something about it!
#>
#>Ah, another heartwarming salute to a free press...
#>
#>-- 
#>
#>Christian L Taylor  KSC
#>kristian@cdrom.com
#>"Everything you know is wrong."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:11:09 PDT 1996
Article: 53773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:19:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t1oaq$711@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>  <4t4e6p$5gq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <838312498snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <838312498snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel
Keren" writes:
> 
> > Even Kramer didn't resort to such insane excuses. He said
> > that he was not allowed to get food from the Whermacht
> > barracks. 
> 
> Schmitz, alias Schmeditz - a former prisoner who ended up in the dock by
> mistake and was acquitted - said in his testimony that at least one lorry
> load of bread had not been permitted in because of the typhus. You are also
> forgetting - wilfully - that countless thousands were being sent to the camp,
> many of them arriving dead, and that Kramer had tried to shut it but had
> been ordered to keep it open. After the British arrived Kramer was still too
>  afraid to do anything without express authority from Berlin.

Al, that's some pretty lame Nazi apologia. Even for you. I suppose you see
nothing bizarre about a truckload of bread being refused on the pretext
that there was typhus in the camp? Like the bread couldn't simply be
unloaded _outside_ the camp and brought in when the truck left? 

And I suppose you also think that becuase Kramer was "too afraid" to treat
the prisoners under his authority like human beings- or even like draught
animals -because of "Berlin," this excuses the fact that thousands died? 

You're losing it again, Al. Funny, this seems to happen every time Dr.
Keren exposes your bullshit and lies for what they are, isn't it? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:11:10 PDT 1996
Article: 53840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ideological stances:
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 21:09:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <31ef8432.734292@news.pacificnet.net> <4suutr$rjm@news.enter.net> <31f4e057.2753060@news.pacificnet.net> <4t4coa$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <24JUL199617184092@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <24JUL199617184092@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

> In article <4t4coa$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes...
> > 
> >Amazing.  After all of this jumping up and down, a librarian with a fancy
> >title.  
> 
>     You have a problem with librarians now, troll?

Of course he does. They are literate and he's afraid he might catch it. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:11:11 PDT 1996
Article: 53877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.crocker.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 28 Jul 1996 04:13:24 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 84
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s5qon$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk>  <4sveia$abj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80788 alt.revisionism:53877

In article , map@zenon.prima.ruhr.de
(Martin Paegert) wrote:

> The Troll (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
> > The issue is that the "witnesses" were reporting it as blue because of 
> > the German name for it Blausaure, blue acid.  

No, that is the Troll's supposition. The eyewitnesses simply reported the
color they saw it as. "Blausuare" does indeed mean "blue acid." It also
means "Prussic acid." 

> The issue is, that an "expert" (at least revisionists do think he is one)
> seems to fail to understand the basic concepts of anorganic chemistry.

There are several non-denier chemists in the group here. Perhaps they
would care to comment on the color properties of prussic acid adsorbed by
a silica gel carrier? (Actually, quite a bit has been discussed regarding
this in other threads. I suggest you hit DejaNews and Nizkor for more
info.) 

> Concerning eye-witnesses I never read a document of any eye-witness which
> deals with the colour of Zyklon B.... 

As to eyewitness descriptions of the color of Zyklon B, there were some.
Off hand I recall a couple:

Dr. Miklos Nyiszli, a survivor of Auschwitz, described it as "mauve
granulated material." (_Auschwitz_, p.51.) 

SS Unterscharfu"hrer Perry Broad, a functionary of the Political Section
(i.e. Gestapo) at Auschwitz, described it as "blue granules the size of
peas." (_KL Auschwitz_, p.176.)

Then, of course, the document NI-9912, called "Directives for the Use of
Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)",
states that:

"ZYKLON is the absorbtion of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant 
by a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass 
(Diagriess - Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers"
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>...No wonder as only very, very rare of the surviving eye-witnesses could have 
> had an opportunity to have a look on Zyklon B. They didn't show it
around, you 
> know.

Actually, Zyklon B was also used to disinfest the clothing of the
prisoners and victims. Evidently prisoners (e.g. Andrzeje Rablin in Block
3) were detailed the task of this disinfesting. (cf. _Technique_, p.25.) 


> By the way: What exactly are eye-wittnesses supposedly called blue ?  The
> pellets (how and when did they see them ?), the walls or what ?  And could
> you please give a cite and source ?

It is unclear exactly how close Dr. Nyiszli was to the SS "disinfector"
when the Zyklon B was poured into the gas chamber of Krema II. Was Nyiszli
outside or was he inside the Krema? Henryk Tauber, a Sonderkommando in
Kremas II and V, also described watching through the window of the boiler
room of Kremas II while the gas was poured into the gas chamber. He
described the process in some detail, but failed to mention the color of
the Zyklon B. (cf. Ibid. p.494.) 

>    Personally me seems you make basically the same mistake as Mr. Lueftl
> by mixing up Zyklon B (respectively HCN) with Prussian Blue.

The Troll makes a great many mistakes, many of them quite stupid,
repeatedly. His above conjecture is but yet another example. However, that
_doesn't_ mean that eyewitnesses _didn't_ say that Zyklon B was blue. 

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:11:12 PDT 1996
Article: 53909 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NO VENTS [SEPT 13 1944]
Date: 28 Jul 1996 07:46:27 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 64
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> Jeffrey  writes:
> 
> # Notice there are NO "mushroom-like concrete objects" on
> # the morgue next to the Crematorium.
> 
> This is mid-September 1944, that is, a short time before
> the SS fled from the camp, other having destroyed the Kremas.
> 
> Earlier photos clearly show the vents. Wasn't this one taken
> after the dismantling of the Kremas began? There are other
> (I recall later) photographs, which show the roof collapsed
> and the Kremas destroyed. I don't have Pressac's book handy;
> perhaps someone can check when the dismantling of these
> Kremas began.

According to Pressac the dismantling of Kremas II and III began on
December 1, 1944 (cf. _Technique_, pp.253,260). According to Czech the
dismantling of Krema III began on December 1, 1944 (cf. _Auschwitz
Chronicle_, p.757). According to Piper the dismantling of Krema II began
on November 25, 1944, and Krema III on December 1, 1944 (cf. _Anatomy_,
p.174). According to Gilbert the dismantling of Krema II began on November
26, 1944, and on December 5, 1944, the dismantling of Krema III began (cf.
_Auschwitz and the Allies_, pp.331-332). 

> # The photo is quite clear, there were NO "concrete 
> # mushroom-like objects" on the top of the morgue. 

The September 13, 1994, photo (RG 373 Can B 8413, exp.6V2) is lower in
contrast and slightly blurred compared to the August 25, 1944 photo (RG
373 Can F 5367, exp. 3185), where the vents are more readily visible.
Nevertheless, the vents on L.Keller 1 of Krema III are visible, and the
vent closest to Krema II on its L.Keller is faintly visible and perhaps
even the vent next to it. 

> Perhaps, in mid-September. What about the earlier photographs?

The vents on both Krema II's and III's L.Keller 1 are clearly visible in
the August 25, 1944, photo. The vents are also visible on Krema III's
L.Keller 1 in the May 31, 1944, photo. In the May 31 photo, however, the
vents can't be discerned because the contrast between the L.Keller and the
surrounding ground is too low to even make out the edges of L.Keller 1.

All in all, it appears that Jeffrey is trying to make an issue over
"missing" vents while ignoring the varying quality of the photos. And, of
course, all the _other_ corroborating evidence that confirms the existance
of these vents. Tsk tsk. 

But that's what happens when deniers rely on an air photo "experts" like
Ball to do their thinking for them.... It's called the Lemming Syndrome. 

[snip]

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:11:13 PDT 1996
Article: 53927 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INTERNEES-spot the difference
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:15:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4t35fn$mt5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4t3fm5$4k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t3fm5$4k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4t35fn$mt5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
> (Ehrlich606) writes:
> 
> >
> >In 1942, Goebbels found out that many of Berlin's judges were half
> >Jews transferred from other cities in the belief that they would stand
> out
> >less in Berlin ....In a letter to the new minister of justice Otto
> >Thierack he proposed simply declaring all Jews *unconditionally
> >disposable* -- the word he used, *ausrottbar*, also has ugly connotations
> >-- and commended to him *the concept of annihilation through work.* 
> >Thierack however was unexpectedly unsympathetic.  Some, he pointed out,
> >were half Jews whose sons had already died in the war ....
> 
> The attribution did not follow the first time through!  I correct it now: 
> David Irving, *Goebbels*, p. 403.
> 
> A book that is difficult to obtain in the USA ...

Utter Bullshit. Try Waldenbooks for starts. They carry much of Irving's
other trash.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:17:25 PDT 1996
Article: 53773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:19:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t1oaq$711@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>  <4t4e6p$5gq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <838312498snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <838312498snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel
Keren" writes:
> 
> > Even Kramer didn't resort to such insane excuses. He said
> > that he was not allowed to get food from the Whermacht
> > barracks. 
> 
> Schmitz, alias Schmeditz - a former prisoner who ended up in the dock by
> mistake and was acquitted - said in his testimony that at least one lorry
> load of bread had not been permitted in because of the typhus. You are also
> forgetting - wilfully - that countless thousands were being sent to the camp,
> many of them arriving dead, and that Kramer had tried to shut it but had
> been ordered to keep it open. After the British arrived Kramer was still too
>  afraid to do anything without express authority from Berlin.

Al, that's some pretty lame Nazi apologia. Even for you. I suppose you see
nothing bizarre about a truckload of bread being refused on the pretext
that there was typhus in the camp? Like the bread couldn't simply be
unloaded _outside_ the camp and brought in when the truck left? 

And I suppose you also think that becuase Kramer was "too afraid" to treat
the prisoners under his authority like human beings- or even like draught
animals -because of "Berlin," this excuses the fact that thousands died? 

You're losing it again, Al. Funny, this seems to happen every time Dr.
Keren exposes your bullshit and lies for what they are, isn't it? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:17:25 PDT 1996
Article: 53840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ideological stances:
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 21:09:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <31ef8432.734292@news.pacificnet.net> <4suutr$rjm@news.enter.net> <31f4e057.2753060@news.pacificnet.net> <4t4coa$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <24JUL199617184092@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <24JUL199617184092@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

> In article <4t4coa$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes...
> > 
> >Amazing.  After all of this jumping up and down, a librarian with a fancy
> >title.  
> 
>     You have a problem with librarians now, troll?

Of course he does. They are literate and he's afraid he might catch it. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:17:26 PDT 1996
Article: 53877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.crocker.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 28 Jul 1996 04:13:24 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 84
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s5qon$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk>  <4sveia$abj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80788 alt.revisionism:53877

In article , map@zenon.prima.ruhr.de
(Martin Paegert) wrote:

> The Troll (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
> > The issue is that the "witnesses" were reporting it as blue because of 
> > the German name for it Blausaure, blue acid.  

No, that is the Troll's supposition. The eyewitnesses simply reported the
color they saw it as. "Blausuare" does indeed mean "blue acid." It also
means "Prussic acid." 

> The issue is, that an "expert" (at least revisionists do think he is one)
> seems to fail to understand the basic concepts of anorganic chemistry.

There are several non-denier chemists in the group here. Perhaps they
would care to comment on the color properties of prussic acid adsorbed by
a silica gel carrier? (Actually, quite a bit has been discussed regarding
this in other threads. I suggest you hit DejaNews and Nizkor for more
info.) 

> Concerning eye-witnesses I never read a document of any eye-witness which
> deals with the colour of Zyklon B.... 

As to eyewitness descriptions of the color of Zyklon B, there were some.
Off hand I recall a couple:

Dr. Miklos Nyiszli, a survivor of Auschwitz, described it as "mauve
granulated material." (_Auschwitz_, p.51.) 

SS Unterscharfu"hrer Perry Broad, a functionary of the Political Section
(i.e. Gestapo) at Auschwitz, described it as "blue granules the size of
peas." (_KL Auschwitz_, p.176.)

Then, of course, the document NI-9912, called "Directives for the Use of
Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)",
states that:

"ZYKLON is the absorbtion of a mixture of prussic acid and an irritant 
by a carrier. Wood fibre discs, a reddish brown granular mass 
(Diagriess - Dia gravel) or small blue cubes (Erco) are used as carriers"
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>...No wonder as only very, very rare of the surviving eye-witnesses could have 
> had an opportunity to have a look on Zyklon B. They didn't show it
around, you 
> know.

Actually, Zyklon B was also used to disinfest the clothing of the
prisoners and victims. Evidently prisoners (e.g. Andrzeje Rablin in Block
3) were detailed the task of this disinfesting. (cf. _Technique_, p.25.) 


> By the way: What exactly are eye-wittnesses supposedly called blue ?  The
> pellets (how and when did they see them ?), the walls or what ?  And could
> you please give a cite and source ?

It is unclear exactly how close Dr. Nyiszli was to the SS "disinfector"
when the Zyklon B was poured into the gas chamber of Krema II. Was Nyiszli
outside or was he inside the Krema? Henryk Tauber, a Sonderkommando in
Kremas II and V, also described watching through the window of the boiler
room of Kremas II while the gas was poured into the gas chamber. He
described the process in some detail, but failed to mention the color of
the Zyklon B. (cf. Ibid. p.494.) 

>    Personally me seems you make basically the same mistake as Mr. Lueftl
> by mixing up Zyklon B (respectively HCN) with Prussian Blue.

The Troll makes a great many mistakes, many of them quite stupid,
repeatedly. His above conjecture is but yet another example. However, that
_doesn't_ mean that eyewitnesses _didn't_ say that Zyklon B was blue. 

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:17:27 PDT 1996
Article: 53909 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NO VENTS [SEPT 13 1944]
Date: 28 Jul 1996 07:46:27 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 64
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> Jeffrey  writes:
> 
> # Notice there are NO "mushroom-like concrete objects" on
> # the morgue next to the Crematorium.
> 
> This is mid-September 1944, that is, a short time before
> the SS fled from the camp, other having destroyed the Kremas.
> 
> Earlier photos clearly show the vents. Wasn't this one taken
> after the dismantling of the Kremas began? There are other
> (I recall later) photographs, which show the roof collapsed
> and the Kremas destroyed. I don't have Pressac's book handy;
> perhaps someone can check when the dismantling of these
> Kremas began.

According to Pressac the dismantling of Kremas II and III began on
December 1, 1944 (cf. _Technique_, pp.253,260). According to Czech the
dismantling of Krema III began on December 1, 1944 (cf. _Auschwitz
Chronicle_, p.757). According to Piper the dismantling of Krema II began
on November 25, 1944, and Krema III on December 1, 1944 (cf. _Anatomy_,
p.174). According to Gilbert the dismantling of Krema II began on November
26, 1944, and on December 5, 1944, the dismantling of Krema III began (cf.
_Auschwitz and the Allies_, pp.331-332). 

> # The photo is quite clear, there were NO "concrete 
> # mushroom-like objects" on the top of the morgue. 

The September 13, 1994, photo (RG 373 Can B 8413, exp.6V2) is lower in
contrast and slightly blurred compared to the August 25, 1944 photo (RG
373 Can F 5367, exp. 3185), where the vents are more readily visible.
Nevertheless, the vents on L.Keller 1 of Krema III are visible, and the
vent closest to Krema II on its L.Keller is faintly visible and perhaps
even the vent next to it. 

> Perhaps, in mid-September. What about the earlier photographs?

The vents on both Krema II's and III's L.Keller 1 are clearly visible in
the August 25, 1944, photo. The vents are also visible on Krema III's
L.Keller 1 in the May 31, 1944, photo. In the May 31 photo, however, the
vents can't be discerned because the contrast between the L.Keller and the
surrounding ground is too low to even make out the edges of L.Keller 1.

All in all, it appears that Jeffrey is trying to make an issue over
"missing" vents while ignoring the varying quality of the photos. And, of
course, all the _other_ corroborating evidence that confirms the existance
of these vents. Tsk tsk. 

But that's what happens when deniers rely on an air photo "experts" like
Ball to do their thinking for them.... It's called the Lemming Syndrome. 

[snip]

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 07:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 53927 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INTERNEES-spot the difference
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:15:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4t35fn$mt5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4t3fm5$4k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t3fm5$4k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4t35fn$mt5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
> (Ehrlich606) writes:
> 
> >
> >In 1942, Goebbels found out that many of Berlin's judges were half
> >Jews transferred from other cities in the belief that they would stand
> out
> >less in Berlin ....In a letter to the new minister of justice Otto
> >Thierack he proposed simply declaring all Jews *unconditionally
> >disposable* -- the word he used, *ausrottbar*, also has ugly connotations
> >-- and commended to him *the concept of annihilation through work.* 
> >Thierack however was unexpectedly unsympathetic.  Some, he pointed out,
> >were half Jews whose sons had already died in the war ....
> 
> The attribution did not follow the first time through!  I correct it now: 
> David Irving, *Goebbels*, p. 403.
> 
> A book that is difficult to obtain in the USA ...

Utter Bullshit. Try Waldenbooks for starts. They carry much of Irving's
other trash.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 08:04:33 PDT 1996
Article: 80013 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:31:45 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 08:04:35 PDT 1996
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 08:04:35 PDT 1996
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 08:04:36 PDT 1996
Article: 80152 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 16:30:44 PDT 1996
Article: 54000 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 28 Jul 1996 20:11:52 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References: <838484554snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4tg59k$qfk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4tg59k$qfk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <838484554snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, Alexander Baron
>  writes:
> 
> >
> >In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren"
> >writes:
> >> Our Nazi-lovers cannot give evidence of *one* SS-man or woman, 
> >> nor of any German soldier, who starved to death in the camps.
> >
> >I found a report in a medical journal from c1946 which reported some
> >deathsfrom malnutrition alone after the war; it wouldn't surprise me if 
> >many Germans did die. Check out "Decision in Germany". 
> 
> The malnutrition and death by starvation of many Germans and Austrians
> after both WW1 and WW2 is well known by anyone who reads books.  With
> regard to Germany after WW2, there was a popular history *In the Ruins of
> the Reich* which came out a few years ago.  Alfred M. De Zayas' *Nemesis
> at Potsdam* covers this as well as the expulsions in great detail.  The
> British Jewish publisher, Victor Gollancz, wrote two books in the
> immediate postwar era, *Our Threatened Values* and *In Darkest Germany*
> which helped publicize the terrible conditions that persisted in Germany
> to the English speaking world.

Indeed. The immediate post-war sufferings of the German people have been
written about and documented. The challange that Dr. Keren has posed (not
for the first time either) to Mr. Baron, however, was quite specific: 

"Name one SS-man, SS-woman, or soldier from Belsen who was
starving, while more than 50,000 inmates died.

"Explain the fact that all these unfortunate accidents of the
water pump breaking down, the bread truck not being allowed
in, bla-bla, happened only in the concentration camps.

"Explain the fact that, out of all the British and American
POW's captured by the Nazis, 3 percent died in captivity,
while in Belsen the death rate was more than 50 (and, clearly,
if the British Army would not have arrived there, it would
have been a 100).

"There is a very simple explanation, but you refuse to accept
it; just like any other fanatic, you refuse to accept reality.

Bringing up German post-war tribulations in regards to the intentionally
horrid conditions inflicted on the prisoners of Bergen-Belsen by the Nazis
is nothiong more than a red herring. A typical denier tactic, btw, when no
valid rebuttal can be made. 

Please, Ehrlich606, do try to stay on track here. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 16:30:45 PDT 1996
Article: 54004 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: This is the guy who wants rational debate? (was Re: You Can _Never_ Have Too Much Diversity)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:32:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t73j4$saa@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t73j4$saa@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   jesusdung  writes:

[dung snipped]

> I find it very appropriate that you use dung as part of your psuedonym.

Indeed. It would have also been more fitting to use "beetle" as the first
part of his psuedonym as well. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Jul 28 16:56:28 PDT 1996
Article: 37460 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!worldlinx.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Turner Diaries Now Out From Barricade Books
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:43:36 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <095309Z21071996@anon.penet.fi> <31F711FF.3670@mail.internet.com.mx>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi139.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31F711FF.3670@mail.internet.com.mx>, Jordi Sod
 wrote:

#>Vyshinsky wrote:
#>#>
#>#>   [5]Amazon.com Books
#>#>
#>#>Turner Diaries
#>#>
#>#>    by [6]Andrew MacDonald
#>#>
#>#>   Paperback
#>#>   List: $12.00 -- Amazon.com Price: $10.80 -- You Save: $1.20(10%)
#>#>   Published by Barricade Books
#>#>   Publication date: May 1996
#>#>   ISBN: 1569800863
#>
#>Better still, don't buy the book.  You save $10.80 extra!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 29 14:07:55 PDT 1996
Article: 54036 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just a few documented Moran lies
Date: 28 Jul 1996 21:21:29 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 64
Message-ID: 
References: <31f9fff6.483614@news.pacificnet.net> <4teeol$m4f@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4teeol$m4f@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >  tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) whines:
> >  mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
> >  
> >  Actually I hadn't taken a thorough look at this post. Seems something
> >  that needs serious attention. Seems it needs a little comment.
> 
> And what you gave was very little comment.  And dishonest at that.
> 
> >  See: Deja News - '200,000,000 = Zioexaggeration'.
> >  In the mean time maybe Mr.Stein will just post the proof for his
> >  assertion of what Moran said. That's the way to do it. Mr.Stein has to
> >  show I claimed "claim that Israel is not big enough to fit 200,000,000
> >  trees".    
> 
> That is exactly what you claimed.

Indeed! Not to mention that Mr. Stein has _already_ documented many of
Moran's lies, including his buffoonery involving trees, and can be found
at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/documented-lies

Specifically, however, I do believe Moran's origional comment was:

"...Every now and then we will see a sizable ad in the N.Y. Times touting
Israel. One of them claimed that the Jews have planted 200,000,000 trees, 
in an effort to have the readers think that Isreal is big on enviroment. 
This would come out to about one tree for every two square feet...."

See: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1995/moran.1295

>From  tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  3 08:34:12 PST 1995
Article: 14754 of alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS?
Message-ID: <49pvdv$mu4@zippy.cais.net>

[snip]

> >  >Maybe little Tommy will stop lying and pretending these have not been 
> >  >posted many, many times before.
> 
> >  >Nah.  Little Tommy is a liar.  The documented proof listed above can
> >  >be found by anyone who knows how to use a Web browser.  (In other words,
> >  >not Tom Moran.)
> 
> l'il tommy has no answer.  Surprise.  Surprise.  Surprise.

Actually, given that Moran has a yellow streak the size of the Grand
Canyon running down his backside (which is only matched by the size of his
big mouth) I hardly find this suprising.

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 29 14:07:56 PDT 1996
Article: 54069 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More goofy Nizkor stuff
Date: 28 Jul 1996 21:31:19 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <31f61f44.4166720@news.pacificnet.net> <4t6k5i$o2u@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4t6k5i$o2u@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
> >  >Why did you delete the rest of the material?  Is it becasue you stated 
> >  >that you challenged me?  Is is because your mouth wrote a check that your 
> >  >body could not cash?  Is it true that you sup on tomato soup when you are 
> >  >sick because you are opposed to cannibalism?
>   
> > Is this your answer to "Wherzat?"?
> 
> Far more than you deserve.  By the way, is it true that you had all the 
> walls in your house painted yellow so that it would be easier for you to hide?

ROTFL! 

Only when his mommy gives him a "time out" for being a naughty boy and
sits him in the corner facing the walls.This, of course, would mean that
Tommy remains invisible most of the time.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 29 14:07:58 PDT 1996
Article: 54078 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Les the Genius
Date: 29 Jul 1996 05:00:54 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 52
Message-ID: 
References:  <120309Z24071996@anon.penet.fi>  <090309Z26071996@anon.penet.fi>  <164309Z27071996@anon.penet.fi> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.politics:61356 alt.politics.white-power:37508 alt.politics.nationalism.white:26393 alt.discrimination:51211 alt.revisionism:54078

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

> In article <164309Z27071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:
> 
> > schwartz@infinet.com writes:
> > 
> > > In article <090309Z26071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Jews are child molesters.  Racists will stop Jews.
> > > 
> > > Really? ALL JEWS?! Fascinating.
> > >  
> > > And your source for this piece of idiocy is... ?
> > 
> > Mark Alstine, Andrew Mathis, Joel Rosenberg and Mike Beebe proved it.
> 
> 
> Do you mean Mark Van Alstine?
>  
> Mark, when did you prove that all Jews are child molesters?

Never, of course. 

[snip]

> You didn't prove it? 

Nope. Never even thought about it. I don't approve of that white-power
ranger stuff, as anybody who ever read my posts would know. 

I didn't think so. So, in other words, our little
> anon troll is not only lying, he's slandering the four of you.

Sure looks like it. 

> I'd say this calls for a complaint to abuse@anon.penet.fi
>  

Indeed it does. Excuse me while I attend to it.... 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Jul 29 14:07:59 PDT 1996
Article: 54082 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.aros.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 29 Jul 1996 02:21:09 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 180
Message-ID: 
References: <4tfqf4$nlh@access5.digex.net> <4tgek6$tm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4tgek6$tm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4tfqf4$nlh@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
> (Michael P. Stein) writes:
> 
> >>This is as good a time as any to comment on the *technical* commentary
> >>Peters' provides. All he says is that the greater part is evolved after
> >>a half an hour. Now that is not what I would call scientific or 
> >>technical commentary.  It sounds like a commercial. The argument is 
> >>1/2 hour at 20 C for 37%, progressing geometrically.  At least those
> >>are concrete numbers.  If someone else has fixed percentages, let's 
> >>have them.  There were such things as dispersal rates in 1933.
> >
> >Try getting product documentation on _anything_ manufactured in 1933
> >but not made today - especially if the company is no longer in existence,
> >at least in its original form.
> 
> My attitude on this is since we can't get specifics we should really drop
> it. Neither the 37% hypothesis nor the Peters' comment are mutually
> exclusive in the sense that nobody at this point in time is arguing for
> complete outgassing in 10 minutes or even in one half hour.

If you had followed the various discusions for the last several months you
would have realized that this _was_ the gist of many denier arguments.
That it _was_ argued that homicidal gassings didn't take place _because_
eyewitness testimonies said it took about 5-10 minutes, then 20 minutes or
so to evacuate the gas chamber, and that because (allegedly) Zyklon B took
longer than this to evolve all the HCN "proved" that the eyewitnesses were
"lying." Ergo, no gassings took place. 

This is utter nonsense on the part of the deniers of course. And now, when
presented with evidence that Zyklon B _did_ rapidly evolve much, if not
most, of the HCN in about 10 minutes or so you suggest we "drop" the
discussion as we "we can't get specifics?" _That_ is utter nonsense on
_your_ part, Ehrlich606. Is this to be yet _another_ topic you jump on
your rhetorical high horse (hobby horse?) and ride away from? 

> Now this was the point of Lueftl's calculations.  He claimed that if the
> ZB was put in, someone would have to clean it up.  The *wastefulness*
> argument, IMHO, is not really relevant.  Whether 92% is still in after 10
> minutes, or something else, the point is that the ZB is going to be
> dangerous and still outgas for some time after opening the can.

So much for you "dropping" discusion on this as "we can't get specifics!" 

Hypocrite.  

> All right.  But since the argument now goes that there are gas masks as
> well as induction tubes (actually, I gather prisms that contain the
> pellets, lowered by wire into the tube), and that the prisms are removed,
> we don't have an problem here anymore.

The was never a _real_ problem in the first place! The "problem" was, as
is typical, with the deniers. It was a problem of distortion, deceit, and
turning a blind eye to the evidence. In other words, the usual denier
antics. 

> Therefore I conclude that the outgassing time of ZB is not really an issue
> anymore, since everyone (even Lueftl) concedes that 10 minutes is enough
> time to kill everyone on the chamber (The one caveat here is the problem
> of the gas escaping through the baffles of the prism and the induction
> column, but that is best addressed by an engineer.)  

The "problem" of "gas escaping through the baffles" is yet another example
of denier "problems." The "solution," of course, sits there right in front
of your face: _Holzblenden_. Each of the four
_Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung_ came equipped with a _Holzblenden_. (cf.
_Anatomy_, p.233.) 

According to Henryk Tauber:

"...Through the window of the <>, I observed how the
<> [Zyklon B] was poured into the gas chamber. Each transport was
followed by a vehicle with Red Cross markings which entered the yard of
the crematorium, carrying the camp doctor, Mengele, accompanied by
Rottenfu"hrer [corporal] Scheimetz. They took the cans of <> from
the car and put them beside the small chimneys used to introduce the
<> into the gas chamber. There Scheimetz opened them with a
special cold chisel [with a ring of teeth at its head] and a hammer, then
poured the contents into the gas chamber. Then he closed the orifice with
a concrete [or wooden] cover. As there were four similar chimneys,
Scheimetz poured into each the contents of one of the smallest cans of
<>, which had yellow labels pasted right around them [see
Documents 32, 33, and 34]. Before openiung the cans, Scheimetz put on a
gas mask [see Document 35] which he wore while opening the cans and
pouring in the product. There were also other SS who performed this
operation, but I have forgotten their names. They were specially
designated for it and belonged top the <> [health
service]. A camp doctor [SS] was present at each gassing...."
(_Technique_. p.494.)

The SS "disinfector" simply closed the cover on the "little chimney,"
which would have prevented any HCN gas from escaping. What a concept. Such
clever Nazis.  

> ...The only other problem here is that Nyiszli, for example, claims that the 
> fans were not turned on for 30 minutes.

Isn't it rather pathetic of deniers, after they try to discredit
eyewitnesses when the eyewitnesses' testimonies contradicts their pet
"arguments" and that they will then turn around and cite the very same
eyewitnesses as an authority when they feel it _supports_ their arguments?


Hypocrite.

But to address the "problem," I would cite Pressac's explination:

"...The SS chose Zyklon-B for its high degree of toxicity on warm blooded
animals, including man. The meticulous care stipulated in NI-9912 has no
sense in homicidal gassing, because this changed the situation radically.
The space where the gas was used was closed and gas-tight. No furniture,
bedding or floor covering. The floor, walls and ceilings were of bare
concrete (except for about twenty dummy wooden shower heads installed in
the ceiling). Forced-draught ventilation would be relatively efficient in
these circumstances. After 15 minutes of ventilation the air in the room
would be completely renewed. A homicidal gassing (using 5 to 7kg of
Zyklon-B for 1000 to 2000 persons) would last about twenty minutes: 5
minutes for the action of the HCN bringing swift death (the quantity
introduced being 40 times the lethal dose) and 15 minutes of ventilation
BEFORE BEING ABLE TO OPEN THE GAS TIGHT DOOR. Although a part of the toxic
gas had been inhaled by the victims, this was negligible with respect to
the quantity remaining due to the initial overdose.

"Here, Faurisson is right when he states that the operating sequences as
described by the witnesses give rise to an almost insurmountable
difficulty. For example, Camp Commandant Hoess and Dr. Nyiszli report
EXACTLY the same sequence: pouring of Zyklon-B through the openings in the
ceiling, the pellets running down the four wire mesh columns and rapid
diffusion of HCN by evaporation in the room <> by human body
heat. In 5 to 10 minutes everybody was dead. Then there was a FURTHER wait
of 20 to 30 minutes BEFORE switching on the ventilation. The door was
opened and the extraction of bodies commenced immediately (<>).
But why wait 20 to 30 minutes after the complete death of the victims
before opening the door? This is a waste of time when we consider the
rapid throughput rates imposed by the SS, always in a hurry. Hoess and
Nyiszli are mistaken as regards the moment at which the ventilation began.
It was in fact switched on not more than 10 minutes AFTER the introduction
of the gas and it was left running FOR 20 to 30 minutes BEFORE the door
was opened. The witnesses state the contrary, and for them it is the
truth. The fact is that as long as the gas-tight door remained closed, no
SOUND could be heard and people could see INTO the gas chamber only
through the inspection peephole. The switching of the ventilation could
not be heard because the motor was located in the roof space of the
Crematorium and the witnesses were in the basement. What is more, there
were five or six electric motors in the roof space, three of them being
used for other ventilation systems. How was it possible to distinguish the
noise of the gas chamber ventilation motor if that of the furnace room, of
the same power, was running at the same time? In truth, the witnesses
HEARD the noise of ventilator fans WHEN the door was opened and they had
THE IMPRESSION that the ventilaton has just been switched on.
(_Technique_, p.16.)

> The other reason why this becomes an issue is because of the relatively
> low (top out at 7.9 mg/kg) of cyanide compounds in Krema II, especially
> when compared to the delousing chambers.  

Please elaborate. Are you suggesting that using ZYklon B for the
disinfection of clothes, which was done at high HCN concentrations for
_hours_ would _not_ produce higher traces of HCN in the delousing chambers
than it would in the jhomicidal gas chambers which were exposed to HCN for
tens of minutes? Is this, perchance, another one of your denier
"problems?" Should I get your horse for this one too? 

> The argument here is also that the induction and extraction of gas was done 
> promptly, the gas was ventilated quickly, and therefore the cyanide compounds 
> are low. I don't find that impossible in theory.

How comforting. How gracious of you. :-/

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 30 07:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 54294 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: 30 Jul 1996 05:07:46 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 658
Message-ID: 
References: <31e6644d.8762624@news.pacificnet.net>  <31fb7649.853973@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31fb7649.853973@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 

[snip]

> Since I plan to repost this in the future and to include Mr.VanAlstine's
critic in with the post I will format it and comment on it now.

Then perhaps you should also include my further comments below.

[snip]

> First off Mr.VanAlstine shows his aggravation with the dreaded
> repost. 

No aggravation, Moran. Just setting the record straight in regards to your
lies and deceits about Dr. Piper's essay in _Anantomy_. I will also
continue to set the record straight every you repost your drivel. 

> This seems to be an extra sore spot for the Holocaust sales
> team on alt.revisionism. They have a hard time understanding that
> these posts are not put out for them. 

Perhaps you, Moran, have a hard time understanding that what you publicly
post in alt.revisionism is a legitimate subject of commentary and
criticism irregardless of who you say said posts are or aren't intended
for? When you post your lies and deceits in a public forum such as
alt.revisionism it is perfectly reasonable that people who take objection
to them would respond to your posts. 

> They should have no problem. I post, they respond.

You mean you post, I (and/or others) post in response, you duck all debate
and repost your origional article numerous times instead. Well, excuse me,
but I _do_ have a slight problem with that. Your moral cowardice aside, if
you wish to propagandize your Holocaust denial and Nazi apologia then
perhaps you wouldn't mind doing on some website or something? It'd help
declutter alt.revisionism of extraneous posts. Many other Holocausrt
deniers and Nazi apologists seem to feel that the WWW is an excellent
medium for propaganda material- just look at Ernst Zundl, Bradley Smith,
and Greg Raven, et. al. -they apparantly _love_ the medium as they aren't
subject to (just) criticism as they are here on alt.revisionism. 

If, on the other hand, you post your Holocaust denial and Nazi apologia in
the context of a debate, then I would suggest you then _debate_. You know,
as in _defending_ the "arguments" you put forward in your denier trash
instead of running away? As it stands, you are acting more like some kind
of adolescent vandal, spray painting grafitti on the walls in the middle
of the night and slinking away. Only problem is that you do so in plain
view of the participants of alt.revisionism. This makes you look rather
foolish, IMHO. 


>                      =========================
> The repost, VanAlstine's response, Moran's counter response:

[snip]

> Well this seems no more than what I included with the exception
> of the part about "resistance forces" not having access to figures,
> which does not apply to the other referred to.

On the contrary. You clearly stated that Dr. Piper concluded, with no
reservations, that " prisoner and SS eyewitness testimony is unreliable."
This, as I demonstrated (above), was a lie on your part. Dr. Piper
_clearly_ wrote that while such testimony can have "considerable accuracy
in certain details" they be "considered cautiously because they lacked
access to aggregate figures"

Dr. Piper's intent is clear here: Though such eyewitness testimony is
valuable to ascertain the _details_ regarding the
concentration/extermination camps, it is far less usefull in determining
the "aggregate figures" for such things as total number of deaths at the
camps. This, of course, does not mean that such eyewitness testimonies
_shouldn't_ be used as part of the research process, but should be used
with caution -and in a complimentary role to such aggragate evidence as
transport records to (and from) the camp, etc., when seeking to determine
such "aggregate figures."

[snip]

> Mr.VanAlstine says that I would have all and any testimonies
> "wholly discarded" when in fact I pointed out, "at least in regard to
> numbers" and  "In respect to the numbers ..." in commenting.

Indeed I do hold that you suggest, by your obvious distorting and taking 
Dr. Piper out of context, that "all and any testimonies" should be wholly
discarded. Your attempt to hide behind such contrite phrases as "at least
in regard to numbers" and "in respect to the numbers" does not diminish
this one bit.  

[snip]

> Since I don't have the book right now, I will only include here,
> that Mr.Piper did make a point about some unreliable nature of Rudolph
> Ho'ss' testimony. 

Well, Moran, I DO have the book in front of me right now. Dr. Piper writes: 

"But it is the testimony of Rudolh Ho"ss, Auschwitz's commandant from 1940
through 1943, that draws the special attention of scholars. Ho"ss is
considered a credible witness because he also supervised camp affairs for
the SS Economic-Administrative Main Office in 1944. Furthermore, he
returned to Auschwitz briefly to oversee the extermination of Hungarian
Jews. After he was arrested by the British on March 11, 1946, Ho"ss
testified several times before vatious Allied preosecuting agencies. His
most important testimonies were at the Kaltenbrunner trial before the
International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg and later, after he was
extradited to Poland, before the Polish authorities." (_Anatomy_, p.64).

You, Moran, are a liar. Dr. Piper specifically states that "Ho"ss is
considered a credible witness." 

> The quote included by Mr.VanAlstine, "Ho"ss is considered a
> credible witness because he also supervised camp affairs for the SS
> Economic-Administrative Main Office in 1944" does nothing to verify
> Ho'ss' testimony as reliable. 

Of course it does. Ho"ss was in a position of aurthority that gave him
access to the "aggregate figures" regarding the numbers of Jews killed in
various Aktions. Furthermore, the specifics of Ho"ss's testimonies and
memoirs as to the  _details_ of the extermination process at Auschwitz are
supported by other eyewitnesses such as Broad, Kramer, Tauber, et. al.
Then there is the sungular fact that Ho"ss, in his memoirs, gives his
_personal_ estimate for the numbers killed at Auschwizt that is almost
identical to Dr. Pipers's estimate that was compiled by evaluating a
plethora of evidence- including the research finding of various countries
and transport records of deportees to Auschwitz.

> As Mr.VanAlstine will get around to, below, Ho'ss retracted that which 
> Mr.VanAlstine cites and much more. 

At Kaltenbrunner's trial he stated that 2.5 million died at Auschwitz.
Later, while being held for trial in Poland, he stated in his memoirs that
this was a number given to him by Eichmann. Based on his _personal_
recollections of the various Aktions, Ho"ss then stated that he believed
1.13 million were kiled at Auschwitz. (cf. _Death Dealer_, pp.38-39).  

As to Ho"ss retracting "much more?" Please, Moran, do share with the rest
of us what else, exactly, did Ho"ss "retract?" 

> Some Holocaust books make comment on the unstableness of Ho'ss, and some 
> consider him to have been insane.

Would you, Moran, care to name these "Holocaust books" specifically? Or
would you have us trust you, a proven liar and anti-Semitic scoundrel*, as
to your telling the truth? Ha! Fat chance. Irregardless, Moran, your
fallacious appeal to _unsupported_ authority simply doesn't wash. Thanks
for playing though. 

*See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity

[snip]

> So here we have the "certified testimony" turning out to have
> been contrary to what he would come to say later.... 

Yes. According to Ho"ss the number he stated at Kaltenbrunner's trial was
given to him by Eichmann. Later, while Ho"ss was writing his memoirs
(without coercion) while in Polish custody (and at the urging of Professor
Jan Sehn, the prosecutor) he reflected on his own experiances and felt
that a more accurate estimate was that 1.13 million victims were murdered
at Auschwitz. 

> ...For some reason the authorities had Ho'ss visiting a psychiatrist.

Indeed. But not for the reason of "unstableness" you, Moran, dishonestly
suggest. Gilbert visitied _all_ of the defendants (e.g. Go"ring, Frank,
Speer, Jodl, et. al.) and prisoners at Nuremberg. The reasons for this is
given by Gilbert himself:

"...Being a psychologist by profession, I had naturally ben interested in
finding out what made human beings join the Nazi movement and do the
things they did.

"My principal duty was to maintain close daily contact with the prisoners
in order to keep the prison commandant, Colonel B.C. Andrus, aware of the
state of their morale, and to help in any way possible to assure their
standing trial with orderly discipline. I also collaborated with the
psychiatric commisions and the prison psychiatrist in any mental
examinations that were required. (_Nuremberg Diary_, p.3). 

> I don't know what records Mr.Piper had to study or how he went
> about deciphering them. 

Then you don't really have any justification for commenting on his work then. 

> I don't know if the full package used by the curator of the Auschwitz
Museum is available to public scrutiny. 

Then you don't really have any justification for commenting on the
Auschwitz-Birkenau State Musuem's records then. 

> I do know that they were incomplete and therefore would require special
> interpretation. 

How could you "know" they were "incomplete" if you, self-admittedly, 
don't know anything about them in the first place?  You can't. Not
honestly at least. But then honesty has never been _your_ policy,
Moran.... 

Or would you have us trust you, a proven liar and anti-Semitic scoundrel*,
as to your knowing "that they were incomplete and therefore would require
special
interpretation?" Ha! Fat chance. Irregardless, Moran, your fallacious
appeal to YOUR _unsupported_ authority simply doesn't wash. Thanks for
playing though. 

*See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
[snip]

> We can see here that Piper mentions that Ho'ss' testimony is up
> for grabs, being up to the individual researcher's personal opinion of
> whether or not he was lying.

Not true. The reason given was because of some confusion on the part of
_historians_ whether or not Ho"ss's Nuremberg testimony included the
nearly 400,000 Hungarian Jews that were killed at Auschwitz. (See
immediately below.)  

[snip]

> "Some" scholars think this, some think that. Scientific
> conclusions are not left up to what people conclude on a personal
> nature. 

You obviously don't comprehend how historical research is done, do you
Moran? One of the _primary_ functions of historians is to _interpret_ the
evidence. As such interpretation is done by _people_ how could it _not_ be
done on a personal basis? This is why historians, just like other
academics and scientists, _publish_ their work in peer reviewed journals.
It allows them to present their ideas and theories to their peers for
criticism (or kudos). It is a means of checks and balances. 

> If the evidence is so prone to personal interpretation, then
> we should be looking for more concrete evidence. 

Indeed. However, _all_ evidence should be examined and used to sythesize a
better understand of the events of the Holocaust. This is, of course,
antithetical to what _you_ are arguing here, Moran. Instead, _you_ would
have historians toss out eyewitness testimonies because they do not fit
_your_ "perceptions" of "allowable" evidence. Your ulterior anti-Semitic
motives aside, this is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
This, I'm sure, would suit you just fine. All that pesky eyewitness
testimony by prisoners _and_ Nazis who attested that hundreds of thousands
of Jews were murdered in the homicidal gas chambers of Auschwitz has been
a bug up your butt ever since you came to alt.revisionism! 

Sorry, Moran, that dog don't hunt! Historians are very keen on eyewitness
testimony- as Dr. Piper readily admits:

"Given the lack of camp documents, the only way to establish how many
perished is by reconciling the increases and decreases in the number of
prisoners at the camp. That can be accomplished by referring to camp and
resistance movement documents, lists of Auschwitz prisoners compiled after
they arrived at other concentration camps, and other scattered sources of
information." (_Anatomy_ p.70.) 

Just how, Moran, do you think "resistance movement document" were compiled
at Auschwitz? Some, at least, by the prisoners in the camp, yes? Prisoners
who _saw_ things with their own eyes, yes? Prisoners who _witnessed_
things. In other words, _eyewitnesses_ who reported what they saw and
smuggled these reports to the outside. 

And Dr. Piper clearly implies that using resistance movement documents was
essential in helping determine the numbers murdered at Auschwitz.

[snip]

> As to the credibility of testimonies the most Mr.Piper cares to
> summarize is that the one thing they had in common was a story of mass
> extermination. 

And yet, when such eyewitness testimomies and documents (i.e. resistance
movement documents) are pieced together in a mosaic they achieve a synergy
beyond their individual contributions. They provide a gestalt of
Auschwitz. This is why Dr. Piper, though cautious in regards such
eyewitness testimony, clearly implied that such eyewitness testimony, with
all its flaws and contradictions, was still quite valuable- and necessary
-to historians. 

> My personal experience with individual testimonies is that they fail to 
> support each other in most respects, and, even inmost respects, contradict 
> each other.

Sorry, Moran, your personal experience is irrelevent. Or would you have us
trust you, a proven liar and anti-Semitic scoundrel*, as to your telling
the truth? Ha! Fat chance. Irregardless, Moran, your fallacious appeal to
YOUR _unsupported_ authority simply doesn't wash. Thanks for playing
though. 

*See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
[snip]

> First I will point out that only the last sentence is a quote and
> the rest is Mr.VanAlstine's. 

And? You doubt that Dr. Piper mentions this? Please reference pages 65 and
66 of _Anatomy_ and your "doubts" will be put to rest.  

> He implies here there should be some significance to the trying bodies 
> mentioned. Mr.VanAlstine has a pet peeve, or fear, about who is to blame for 
> the old numbers said have been killed at Auschwitz, and aims to lay the
blame > on the Russians and Poles, even claiming that this number has been
viewed as
> inaccurate for decades. 

Pet peeve? Fear? Blame? Odd choice of words, Moran. Projecting again are
we? But no, I have no pet peeve, or fear, or blame for the "old numbers."
Rather, it is _because_ lying anti-Semitic and Nazi apologist scoundrels,
such as yourself*, who constantly cite the Soviet death toll estimate of 4
million, as some kind of "proof" that the death toll at Auschwitz has been
"revised," that I brought this up. It's called the "Four Million Variant"
and is an old denier tactic used to attempt to discredit the
historiography of the Holocaust.**

But you knew that. 

*See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity

**See:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant  
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant-02

> This is one of the major themes of the Holocaust promotional network, 
> to divert the blame over to the Russians and Poles in order to lead 
> anyone from getting the idea it was somebody else who perpetuated the 
> old numbers, only revised publicly from 4,000,000 down to around a 
> 1,000,000, just in the last few years.

The "Four Million Variant" QED.* Thanks, Moran! 

*See:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant  
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant-02

> Mr.VanAlstine says; "The inaccuracy of the estimates for the number of 
> people murdered at Auschwitz by these agencies has been well documented 
> and known by > historians for decades."
> 
> We will see that Mr.VanAlstine will muster up Reitlinger to show
> this is fact, when in real facts, in spite of what Mr.VanAlstine says,
> many books and pamphlets have been written since the date of
> Reitlinger's book, all claiming considerable more exterminations than
> Reitlinger's estimate or the present day, currently accepted number.

Moran, my point was that historians such as Hilberg, Piper, Reitlinger,
and Wellers, whose estimates spanned decades, were _never_ close to 4
million- and were never _reduced_ from 4 million -as you and other
Holocaust deniers have claimed. That the estimates of these four
researchers have ranged from 851,000 (Reitlinger) to 1,433,405 (Wellers)
is irrelevent to your specioius claim that the Auschwitz death toll was
"revised publicly from 4,000,000 down to around a 1,000,000, just in the
last few years."

Your absurd claim is made even more laughable by the simple fact that
Hilberg fist published his seminal book _The Destruction of the European
Jews_, in which he claimed that the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz was
around one million, in 1961. 

> Mr.VanAlstine's only quote in the whole paragraph, after
> fingering the Russians and Poles, is "The International Military
> Tribunal in Nuremburg did not address the question of how many persons
> were killed at Auschwitz" implying this Tribunal was more honest.

Indeed. The IMT made no offical judgement or claim that 4 million were
murdered at Auschwitz. The Soviet Special Commission's erroneous estimate
was not officially acknowlwdged. How then could Western historians
"revise" an "oficial" death toll that was never made offical by the IMT?
Obviously, they couldn't. 
Your claim that they did gets curioser and curioser, Moran. It has become
equally obvious that you are simply lying and repeating the lies ands
deceits of other more "scholarly" Holocaust deniers. 

> I find it interesting that the Tribunal did not announce any
> numbers, if Mr.Piper is correct in stating so. 

What you find "interesting" is of little consequence in this context,
Moran. The salient fact remains that the IMT did not officially state a
death toll of 4 million for Auschwitz. Given that the mainstream of
historians never subsequentl6y accepted a death toll of 4 million for
Auschwitz, this means there was _never_ any revising of the Auschwitz
death toll "from 4,000,000 down to around a 1,000,000, just in the last
few years." In short, Moran, you are a brazen liar for claiming such. 

[snip]

> We will notice we are now talking exclusively about resistance
> fighters.... 

And were not many of these  of the "resistance fighters" _prisoners_ at
Auschwitz?  Of course they were. (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.485-502.) Your
"objection," Moran, is specious. Nice try though. 

> ...I believe there is a considerable record of the various way
> out claims resistance fighters gave and not held as true today.... 

What you _believe_ is of _no_ consequence here, Moran. Or would you have
us trust you, a proven liar and anti-Semitic scoundrel*, as to what your
"beliefs" really are? Ha! Fat chance. Irregardless, Moran, your fallacious
appeal to YOUR beliefs and YOUR _unsupported_ authority simply doesn't
wash. Thanks for playing though. Don't let the door hit you on the way
out. 

*See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity

> ...As to the "considerable accuracies in certain details" that's all we have.
> Whether or not the details involved figures or other accounting is not
> clear. What the details are we don't know. They could be accurate in
> identifying the camp as a prisoner camp, it's location, what the
> industry was near and associated with it, how many German troops were
> there, etc.

Indeed. We have the writings of a well-respected historian from which we
are implicitly asked accept his established and well-deserved authority on
such matters. In comparison we have Moran, a proven liar, anti-Semitic
scoundrel*, and most importantly, a comlpete ignoramus with ZERO
historical acumen asking us to implicity accept _his_ criticism of Dr.
Piper's work. 

Ha! Fat chance. Irregardless, Moran, your ad hominem attack on Dr. Piper's
expert authority simply doesn't wash. Thanks for playing though. Don't let
the door hit you on the way out. 

*See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity

[snip]

>  Pasted from above; Mr.VanAlstine says that I would have all and any 
>  testimonies "wholly discarded", when in fact I pointed out, "at least in 
>  regard to numbers" and  "In respect to the numbers ..." in commenting.

I will repeat that I do indeed hold that you suggest, by your obvious
distorting and taking Dr. Piper out of context, that "all and any
testimonies" should be wholly discarded. Your attempt to hide behind such
contrite phrases as "at least in regard to numbers" and "in respect to the
numbers" does not diminish this one bit.  

[snip]

> Perhaps Mr.VanAlstine is taken with the title "So much for
> eyewitnesses". I can see how he could get that opinion. Next time I'll
> post this under a different title, something more exact, even though I
> hold most of the eyewitness testimony I have seen in low esteem. 

You mean you will post the same garbage under a different title to try and
sneak it by. Typical Moran: taking the coward's way out. As for your
holding of "ewyewitness testimony in low esteem" let it suffice that YOUR
"opinion" of eyewitness testimony is that of a proven liar and
anti-Semitic scoundrel*. One could hardly be unaware of your posts
involving the copius Jew-bashing that you take such obvious pleasure in.
Could your "opinions" be colored by this? 

Ha! They _reek_ of it! Besides, Moran, you have yet to evidence _any_
qualifications _whatsoever_ as to YOUR possessing the academic ability to
determine the historical worth of eyewitness testimony. (Or anything else
for that matter!) Ergo, you are making nothing but an unsupported appeal
to your bogus "authority." In other words, Moran, when you make such
pompus statements as "I hold most of the eyewitness testimony I have seen
in low esteem" you are, as usual, simply blowing smoke out your butt. 

*See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity

[snip]

> I've personally witnessed what Mr.Piper refers to as  "discrepant and
> imprecise data from testimonies and depositions from witnesses, former
> prisoners, and Nazi functionaries and on court decisions and
> fragmentary and incomplete records of camp registries, archives, and
> other institutions" concerning all sorts Holocaust topics.

 Another fallacious appeal to unssupported authority. 

However, I find Moran's eyewitness testimony "interesting." (Not to
mention hypocritical!) Would Moran care to specifically enumerate these
"discrepant and imprecise data from testimonies" etc. "concerning all
sorts Holocaust topics?" After all, if Moran wishes to appeal to _his_
"authority" _he_ first needs to establish it! What better way than
providing _all_ the details of _his_ ewyewitness accounts? 

Or will he, as usual, continue to simply make fallacious appeals to his
ersatz authority? 

[snip]

> Well we covered this before, so I will only point out that
> Mr.VanAlstine says Rudolph Ho'ss was a credible witness because he was
> the commandant of Auschwitz yet there is considerable commentary on
> his sanity and contradictions. 

Indeed "we" covered this before. As I pointed out (above) Moran's claims
regarding Ho"ss "unstableness" is nothing more than Moran's dishonesty. He
insinuated that Gilbert saw Ho"ss _because_ of some alleged "unstableness"
while in fact Gilbert saw _all_ the Nazis in custody for rather different
reasons. 

As to Ho"ss's "contradictions" Moran only lists one: Ho"ss's 2.5 million
number for the death toll at Auschwitz, given at Kaltenbrunner's trial,
and his later 1.13 million number in his memoirs. Any "contradiction" is
readily explained by the basis Ho"ss's used for these two different
numbers. The 2.5 million was given to him by Eichmann while the 1.13 was
based on his personal recollection of major special Aktions against the
Jews. Given this it is hard to see where the "contradiction" is as the
_reason_ for the difference are quite apparent when one reads Gilbert's
_Nuremburg Diary_ and Ho"ss's memoirs (i.e. _Death Dealer_).  

And as to _rest_ of your alleged "contradictions" by Ho"ss, Moran? Why,
you  don't say what they are! Could it be because you haven't a clue as to
what  these other "contradictions" might be? That you desperately hope
people will simply to take your word on it?  

Take the word a _proven_ lair and anti-Semite? You've _got_ to be kidding! 

[snip]

> Here again we can see Mr.VanAlstine is finding the agencies
> involved as relevant. 

Indeed. The Soviet Special Commision's estimate is relevant for the simple
that Holocaust deniers, Moran included, cite it as "proof" that the death
toll at Auschwitz has been "revised publicly from 4,000,000 down to around
a 1,000,000, just in the last few years." It is also relevent not only
because the Soviet estimate was in error but because historians have never
accepted them. This means that when Holocaust deniors (you included,
Moran) cite the Soviet estimate they are being intellectually dishonest
because they fallaciously use it to create a false dilemma by comparing it
to the historically defensible death toll range of 850,000 to 1.5 million
victims. 

[snip]

> He repeats and even escalates his initial claim
> "for decades" that "historians" have been aware of the lower numbers,
> here saying "almost immediately after they were made". I might as well
> point out again that for the most part the numbers given by any
> "historians", pamphlets, books and newspaper articles in the ensuing
> years were more in tune with what these Russian and Pole judicial
> bodies gave at the time.

For some reason, you, Moran, seem to think (and I use the term loosely!)
that pamphlets and newspaper articles are where historians publish their
work. (I wonder if this means that you use the National Enquirer, while
standing in the checkout line at the supermarket, as an authority on the
Holocaust?) 

Your fantasies, Moran, are of course, a far cry from reality. Historians,
like other academics, publish their work in peer reviewed journals. They
also write books. History books. This takes painstaking research. A case
in point is Hilberg's' seminal _The Destruction of the European Jews_. It
was published in 1961- decades ago -and cited a death toll at Auschwitz of
one million victims. Unsuprisingly, even with further research over the
ensuing decades, that number remains in the realm of validity, well with
in the range generally accepted today- the 1.1+ million estimate given by
Dr. Piper, which in turn is nearly the same number given by Ho"ss in his
memoirs (1.13 million) which were written between October 1946 and April
1947.  

[snip]

> I like Mr.VanAlstins's wording here. "Since then, other estimates
> lower than the figures quoted by the Soviet and Polish commissions
> have been advanced, especially in Western publications" instead of
> saying that many "estimates" since then, have cited figures way higher
> than Reitlinger's.

I thought it was a rather valid comment, especially as you, Moran, were
making noises about the Auschwitz death toll being "revised publicly from
4,000,000 down to around a 1,000,000, just in the last few years." A
comment that is founded on the Soviet Special Commision's erroneous 4
million death toll estimate at Auschwitz.  

> Reitlinger is always the only author the Holocaust promotional
> network cites as lower numbers, when in fact they are aware of the
> many that came after him to give much higher numbers.  

There have been many historians and Holocaust researchers who have cited
numbers in the range of one to two million. There are some who have cited
numbers in the two to three million range. I can think of only one,
offhand, who has cited numbers in the 4 million range- Kogon. This, of
course, does not contradict in any fashion that historians have generally
accepted that the death toll range at Auschwitz to ne somewhere in the
1-1.5 million range, with Dr. Piper's estimate of at least 1.1 million
being the most recent and, quite arguably, the most extensively researched
estimate.

But as to Reitlinger specifically, Dr. Piper, in _Anatomy_, details _why_ 
Reitlinger's estimate is too low: Reitlinger underestimated the number of
Polish  and Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz by about 158,000.
Reitlinger also  underestimated the number of Jews deported to Auschwitz
>from  other countries by about 90,000. All told, Reitlinger's estimate for
the numbers murdered at Auschwitz by the Nazis was about 250,000 too low.
(cf. _Anatomy_, pp.68-69.) 

[snip]

> Whatever the real numbers, 300,000 to 5,000,000...

Best estimates place it in the 1 to 1.5 million range. A range that has
been supported by the mainstream of historians for decades.

> ....the one thing that can be verified with massive documentary evidence is 
> that it wasn't and isn't the Russians and the Poles who have perpetuated the
> Holocaust story and whatever numbers and methods it possesses today.

Agreed. The massive documentary evidence of the Holocaust was provided by
the Nazis themselves. 

On the other hand, the puerile attempts of Holocaust deniers, like
yourself, Moran, who have attempted to foist the erroneous Soviet estimate
of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz of as something historically accepted is
only one of the many "stories" your ilk possess today. 


Mark

posted but not e-mailed to Moran because he has asked me not to send him
e-mail. (He never read them anyways, evidently.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 30 07:34:53 PDT 1996
Article: 54332 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauve in Hungarian
Date: 30 Jul 1996 09:09:52 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <4tgr29$5op@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4tgr29$5op@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> Just FYI, since Dr. Nyiszli claimed that mauve was the color of Zyklon, I
> checked it out.  In Hungarian, mauve is *malyvaszinu*, carrying an aigu
> accent on the first *a* and a double-aigu on the last *u*.  *Ly* in
> Hungarian functions as a slashed *L* in Polish, or a palatalized *L* in
> Russian, that is, it is the sound of the *L* in *leaf* palatalized
> virtually into non-existence.  Pronounced, therefore: *Muyvaseenu* where
> the *uy* is the diphthong in *buy* but very tight, and the final *u* is
> like the *u* in *ueber* but lengthened.
> 
> The word means literally, the color of mallows, which is we know is a
> tannish lavender, but not blue.  BTW, there are several Hungarian words
> for *blue*, all involving variations of *kek*, pronounced like *cake* but
> far forward in the mouth.

Very good. Now what is the word for "pedant" in Hungrian? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 30 20:36:54 PDT 1996
Article: 54378 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 30 Jul 1996 08:58:43 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t1oaq$711@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>  <4t4e6p$5gq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <838312498snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <838542968snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <838542968snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            mvanalst@rbi.com "Mark Van Alstine" writes:
> 
> > Al, that's some pretty lame Nazi apologia. Even for you. I suppose you see
> > nothing bizarre about a truckload of bread being refused on the pretext
> > that there was typhus in the camp? Like the bread couldn't simply be
> > unloaded _outside_ the camp and brought in when the truck left? 
> 
> The situation was a lot more complex than that. If you read reports about
> the surrender of Belsen you'll find that Kramer (or his superiors) asked
> for a miles wide no man's land.

Uh huh. Just in case those pesky typhus-infected super-lice could leap
hundreds of meters or so? Please, Al, you're making yourself look more
foolish than usual and its rather embarrassing to watch. 

The fact is if the Nazis had wished to remedy the conditions at Belsen
they would have. The British did. The Americans did at Dachau. Even the
Russians did at Auschwitz.

> > And I suppose you also think that becuase Kramer was "too afraid" to treat
> > the prisoners under his authority like human beings- or even like draught
> > animals -because of "Berlin," this excuses the fact that thousands died? 
> 
> I think Kramer has been thoroughly demonised - the Beast of Belsen. It is 
> easy for you, me or anyone to sit back and say in retrospect that he, she
> or they should have done such, but in the heat of the moment people do some
> pretty stupid things: look at your own government, bombing Colonel Gadaffi,
> sending the Ayetolah a birthday cake? 

Stupid those things may be, Al, but they didn't involve the intentional
abuse, privation, and murder of thousands upon thousands of innocent
civilains being held prisoner by, as the case may be, their government or
a hostile occupying power bound by the Haugue and Geneva Conventions. No
matter how you try a pretty up your Nazi apologia, Al, it still stinks. 

And then, of course, there were the extermination camps....   

> Ironically I read a story in the Guardian last week about a man in San 
> Francisco who was gaoled for feeding the homeless without a permit. Yes,
I kid 
> you not.I don't know if anybody is starving in America but if you consider 
> that we are fifty years on in technology and not in the middle of the 
> bloodiest war in history, Kramer comes out rather well in comparison.

Would you like some chips with your red herring, Al? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 30 20:36:54 PDT 1996
Article: 54380 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.u.washington.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 30 Jul 1996 05:24:20 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>     
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In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
> >olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
> ># , Daniel Keren wrote:
> >
> >## And "revisionists" spit on their graves.
> >
> ># But there are no graves to spit on literally. Even 
> ># according to the established historiography all the 
> ># ashes from the alleged corpses have disappeared.
> >
> >Even this is a lie; there are numerous human remains,
> >including ashes, in some of the camps, as Treblinka
> >and Maidanek.
> 
>  But not from 6 million. Even in the established historiography you can read
> that the ashes from alleged corpses were poured out in nearby rivers and 
> thus washed away with the current.

At Auschwitz, Mr. Kreiberg. Nearly all the incinerated human remains of
the Auschwitz victims were dumped in the Vistula river, nearby ponds, and
scattered across the fields surrounding the camp. Even so, human remains-
consisting of ash, bone, and hair -were found in the locations of the
incineration pits by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum.

And of course, there are photos of incinerated human remains in the
demolished furnaces of the Kremas. 

Mr. Kreiberg, your incomplete mastery of the subject is reminicent of your
incomplete knowledge of the inceneration furnaces of the Kremas. You know,
the ones where you insisted that "exploding coprses" would damage them? 


Mark 


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul 30 20:36:55 PDT 1996
Article: 54397 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 30 Jul 1996 09:07:07 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References:  <4t6jrc$im@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>  <4t8uvm$rcd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>  <4tcm81$hbd@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31FA1DB5.C88@rio.com> <838543117snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <838543117snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

#> > >         Not governed by the Geneva rules.
#> > 
#> > So what? Meaning what? Changes what? Proves what?
#> > 
#> > About 25% of the war was not under Geneva rules. 100% of 
#> > German-Austrian conduct of the war was not conducted by Geneva rules.
#> > 
#> > 
#> > clips
#> > 
#> > >         Created capital penalties after the war.
#> > 
> > War Crimes were known by all participants to be punishable by trials 
> > and sever penalties. The German-Austrians who did whatever was 
> > necessary to escape being captured by the Russians, knew they had a 
> > better chance being taken prisoner by Americans or British.
> 
> 
> This guy is one dumb fuck. War is legalised murder you meathead, there are
> no rules. You think the Nazis were guilty of mass murder in the camps by
> - in your opinion - starving, working and "gassing" Jews to death and your
> buddies on Enola Gay were not?

That is correct, Al, you Nazi apologist dumb fuck. Germany was a signatory
to the Hague and Genava Conventions. Germany's conduct in Poland and the
U.S.S.R., as well as other occupied countries, most notably pertaining to
German treaty obligations, as the occupying power, in regards to the
treatment of the civilian populace was beyond the pale and clearly
constituted war crimes under those treaties.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 13:59:40 PDT 1996
Article: 54558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,
Subject: Re: cicvil rights in the U.S and in Germany (was: Nitzkor ...)
Date: 31 Jul 1996 06:15:09 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 92
Message-ID: 
References: <034303Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t95n9$g1r@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <034303Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <4tl8mh$mp8@power5.rz.uni-hohenheim.de> 
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In article
,
Supercat  wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Boris Seifert wrote:
> 
> > >> American living in Germany these past 10 years, I've found that
> > >> Germans have fewer civil rights than US citizens in USA. 
> 
> Could you, please, name some of the civil rights we're not entitled to 
> enjoy?

I dunno, is there any you think you're not entitled to? 

> 
> Let me ask you some questions about the situation in the U.S.:
> 
> - Is ist correct that you're not allowed to drink _beer_ until your 21 
>   years of age?

Well... I beleive the age varies in some states. In California, for
instance, it is 21. When I was in the military, it was 18 in Texas. That
might have changed by now, I don't know. But the point is that the
drinking age is set by the States. 

> - Is it true that in many cities dance clubs and night bars have to close 
>   at a certain time with no exeptions being made?

If they do it is because of local laws. Again, in California, the law is
that  _alcohol_ may not be served after 2:00 AM. (I believe this is a
federal law.) Dance clubs and bars can stay open as late as they want.
They just can't serve alcohol after 2:00 AM.

> - Is it a matter of fact, that in TV shows some words or are 
>   being wiped or beeped out [don't know the appropriate term]?

On broadcast TV, yes. The FCC is quite anal about what is sent over the
airwaves. (And the Supreme Court quite slow on bringing First Amendment
protections into such relatively new mediums.) On cable? Not that I can
tell. Pretty much anything goes if you are willing to _pay_ for it.... 

> - Is it true that prostitution, with the exeption of some counties in 
>   Nevada, is illigal within the entire U.S. although no one's being hurt 
>   by this phenomenon?

Yes. Though I 'm sure you'll find many who would argue that prostitution
is _not_ a "victimless" crime. (Consider STDs, for instance.) Would
legalization (and governent regulation) be a better idea- say along the
lines of Nevada or the Netherlands? Probably. (Same argument can be used
for drug and needle programs.) 

But then people in the U.S. have historically had a puritanical streak for
some reason, so I'm not holding my breath for any change soon.... 

> Tell you what: I lived in the Midwest for a year and I encountered all 
> those things, many times, and I was always wondering: Boy, those Americans 
> are so proud of all their liberties; but some things are going on here that 
> would not be possible at all in Germany, France or Italy.
> 
> By now, I dont think that there are more liberties in the U.S than 
> elswhere nor vice versa. Concepts about social life and political 
> participation are different and so are laws and regulations. What's 
> imortant for the people in the U.S. (being allowed to carry guns, say) is 
> not at all important for the people in Europe, so we dont feel our range 
> of actions is restricted by not being allowed to buy guns.

How about the seperation of Church and State? Does the fact that many
European countries had (or have) State sponsored churches (and state
sponsored religious dogma) bother Europeans much? Do you all feel
"restricted" because of this? 

Or how about habeous corpus? Or the equivalent of First Amendment rights,
etc. etc.?  Do all European countries have such rights and protections? 

Needless to say, quite a few people here in the U.S. would feel
"restricted" without these rights and protections.... But different
strokes for different folks, as the saying goes. 

There, I've fullfilled my off-topic quota for the month.  ;-) 


Mark

posted/e-mailed  [cross-posts trimmed]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 13:59:41 PDT 1996
Article: 54633 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zogging attire for the Correct Zionist
Date: 31 Jul 1996 06:23:28 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <4tl8dg$gt@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

> I am the proud owner of a ZOG t-shirt, complete with black helicopter on
> the back and the phrase "We're coming to get you."

Sara, I _gotta_ have one of these! Seriously! I could wear it
alternatively with my RSA "This shirt is a munitions" tee. (The RSA
algorithm is written in Pearl and also barcoded.) E-mail me the order info
soonest! };-> 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 15:08:25 PDT 1996
Article: 81119 of soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,
Subject: Re: cicvil rights in the U.S and in Germany (was: Nitzkor ...)
Date: 31 Jul 1996 06:15:09 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 92
Message-ID: 
References: <034303Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t95n9$g1r@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <034303Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <4tl8mh$mp8@power5.rz.uni-hohenheim.de> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:81119 alt.revisionism:54558

In article
,
Supercat  wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Boris Seifert wrote:
> 
> > >> American living in Germany these past 10 years, I've found that
> > >> Germans have fewer civil rights than US citizens in USA. 
> 
> Could you, please, name some of the civil rights we're not entitled to 
> enjoy?

I dunno, is there any you think you're not entitled to? 

> 
> Let me ask you some questions about the situation in the U.S.:
> 
> - Is ist correct that you're not allowed to drink _beer_ until your 21 
>   years of age?

Well... I beleive the age varies in some states. In California, for
instance, it is 21. When I was in the military, it was 18 in Texas. That
might have changed by now, I don't know. But the point is that the
drinking age is set by the States. 

> - Is it true that in many cities dance clubs and night bars have to close 
>   at a certain time with no exeptions being made?

If they do it is because of local laws. Again, in California, the law is
that  _alcohol_ may not be served after 2:00 AM. (I believe this is a
federal law.) Dance clubs and bars can stay open as late as they want.
They just can't serve alcohol after 2:00 AM.

> - Is it a matter of fact, that in TV shows some words or are 
>   being wiped or beeped out [don't know the appropriate term]?

On broadcast TV, yes. The FCC is quite anal about what is sent over the
airwaves. (And the Supreme Court quite slow on bringing First Amendment
protections into such relatively new mediums.) On cable? Not that I can
tell. Pretty much anything goes if you are willing to _pay_ for it.... 

> - Is it true that prostitution, with the exeption of some counties in 
>   Nevada, is illigal within the entire U.S. although no one's being hurt 
>   by this phenomenon?

Yes. Though I 'm sure you'll find many who would argue that prostitution
is _not_ a "victimless" crime. (Consider STDs, for instance.) Would
legalization (and governent regulation) be a better idea- say along the
lines of Nevada or the Netherlands? Probably. (Same argument can be used
for drug and needle programs.) 

But then people in the U.S. have historically had a puritanical streak for
some reason, so I'm not holding my breath for any change soon.... 

> Tell you what: I lived in the Midwest for a year and I encountered all 
> those things, many times, and I was always wondering: Boy, those Americans 
> are so proud of all their liberties; but some things are going on here that 
> would not be possible at all in Germany, France or Italy.
> 
> By now, I dont think that there are more liberties in the U.S than 
> elswhere nor vice versa. Concepts about social life and political 
> participation are different and so are laws and regulations. What's 
> imortant for the people in the U.S. (being allowed to carry guns, say) is 
> not at all important for the people in Europe, so we dont feel our range 
> of actions is restricted by not being allowed to buy guns.

How about the seperation of Church and State? Does the fact that many
European countries had (or have) State sponsored churches (and state
sponsored religious dogma) bother Europeans much? Do you all feel
"restricted" because of this? 

Or how about habeous corpus? Or the equivalent of First Amendment rights,
etc. etc.?  Do all European countries have such rights and protections? 

Needless to say, quite a few people here in the U.S. would feel
"restricted" without these rights and protections.... But different
strokes for different folks, as the saying goes. 

There, I've fullfilled my off-topic quota for the month.  ;-) 


Mark

posted/e-mailed  [cross-posts trimmed]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 15:08:27 PDT 1996
Article: 81200 of soc.culture.german
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 31 Jul 1996 18:49:02 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4skpl8$3be@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>  <4svf6l$l8p@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>  <4tajct$ljp@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:81200 alt.revisionism:54689

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article <4tajct$ljp@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, Stefan Schneider wrote:
> >
> >Which you tried to promote using a paper of some Mr. Lueftl as a source 
> >and the only thing that possibly can be demonstrated by this paper is that 
> >this Mr. Lueftl is unaware of the meaning of the word 'chemistry'.
> >
>  I can understand that you think that you know a lot about chemistry so
> maybe you would be so kind as to answer the following questions?
> 
>   Why did the nazis chose Zyklon B for the killing of humans in the 
> concentration camps? 

Because it worked. Quite well too. But you knew that. 

[drivel snipped]

Mark.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 17:30:11 PDT 1996
Article: 80984 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: 28 Jul 1996 21:21:21 GMT
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 17:30:13 PDT 1996
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 17:30:16 PDT 1996
Article: 82001 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 17:30:18 PDT 1996
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 31 17:41:43 PDT 1996
Article: 54689 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 31 Jul 1996 18:49:02 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4skpl8$3be@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>  <4svf6l$l8p@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>  <4tajct$ljp@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> 
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In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article <4tajct$ljp@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, Stefan Schneider wrote:
> >
> >Which you tried to promote using a paper of some Mr. Lueftl as a source 
> >and the only thing that possibly can be demonstrated by this paper is that 
> >this Mr. Lueftl is unaware of the meaning of the word 'chemistry'.
> >
>  I can understand that you think that you know a lot about chemistry so
> maybe you would be so kind as to answer the following questions?
> 
>   Why did the nazis chose Zyklon B for the killing of humans in the 
> concentration camps? 

Because it worked. Quite well too. But you knew that. 

[drivel snipped]

Mark.

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"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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