From jtoth@infobahnos.com Tue Oct  8 08:49:40 PDT 1996
Article: 72515 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: DR. D. KEREN ALWAYS ASKS FOR EVIDENCE...
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:32:49 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) quoted:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) who writes:
# You friend dr. Keren IS A first rate skeptical if not downwright
># DENIER about the atrocities,--  rape and bloody murder by the 
># Soviet hordes, -- when he asked me for EVIDENCE.
----------------------
DANIEL KEREN REPLIES: <<< If you people are going to play this game,
play it fair.
By "revisionist" standards, you have to supply very strong
physical and documentary evidence for this claim. For instance,
they demand to see 6 million corpses of Jews as a proof for the
Holocaust. - If you don't have the evidence, then, by "revisionist"
standards,  you're a liar and hatemonger. Do you have it? Yes or no?
Or do you reject the "method" of "Holocaust revisionism"?
You can't have it both ways.
Danny Keren.>>>
=====================
ANSWER TO D. KEREN:
I see where you are heading with all this: you finally  realized that
you are painting yourself into a corner - even with your comrades help
you can't get anywhere -  therefore you keep hammering on utter
nonsense! 
	You ask for PHYSICAL EVIDENCE only when it is safe and  you know it is
not possible to give, but when we document something  you shove  it
aside  and  you and your friends reject it as "second,- and third-hand
info."  
	Your "method of Holo-revisionism"  already supplied  the world with
more than enough "EVIDENCE" .... thank you very much. However, there
are always two sides to every coin and I feel yours  has the same
picture on both sides. You are also sitting in a one way street which
can be annoying  if you treat it to be a two way street. - 

Here are  some novelties for your  Holocaust-revisionism:
	"In 1937, Dr. Chaim Weizmann, President of World Zionism, said of
Europe's six million Jews, 'They are dust in a cruel world. They must
meet their fate. Only a branch shall survive. They must accept it.'"
(Source: PERFIDY by Ben Hecht (p.149),  Julian Messner, Inc. New York,
1961.]
	"On the Holocaust and on the Reaction," statement by Itzchak
Greenbaum, Chief of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency,
addressed to the Zionist Executive Council on February 18, 1943 and
published in his book, Beeyemei Khurban Veshoah (In days of Holocaust
and Destruction), 1946: 
	Itzchak Greenbaum, chief of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish
Agency, announced in Tel Aviv in 1943, "When they asked me, coudn't
you give money out of United Jewish  Appeal funds for the rescue of
Jews in Europe, I said 'No!' And I say again, 'No!' In my opinion one
should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to
secondary importance." 
	After this Ben Hecht: writes in his book: "Having thus turned their
backs on the doomed Jews, the same leaders later utilized the
extermination for raising millions on millions, and for collecting
billions in reparations from the Germans."(PERFIDY: p.50)
(Ben Hecht: PERFIDY, p.50 & notes on p. 258.)

EVIDENCE NOT REDUCED BUT CORRECTED!
Take the  "4 million names"  from the memorial marble tables in
Auschwitz as EVIDENCE:
	. On October 20th , 1982 during his visit to Poland  Pope John Paul II
- together with other dignitaries of the Catholic Church and a few
hundred survivors - paid  his respect to the "4 million Jews murdered
in Auschwitz." [Note: at that time  there were no complaints about
EVIDENCE of  "the 4 million" figure to be corrected.]
	To the story  was published  world wide, along with two
photographs  in a German newspaper.  On the first  we see the pope
dressed  in white,  his head bowed in prayer and sadness  in front of
the tables with names on them. He is surrounded by bishops, priests
and survivors.
	The other picture has no visitors and the area where tears were
falling earlier  in 1982 looks rather deserted with no more names on
the tables. EVIDENCE gone! They were all taken off! What happened and
why? Somebody tried to deny the victims of Auschwitz? 
	In July 1990 the director of the Auschwitz  Museum gave orders to
remove the 19 marble tables, because  according to the management and
scholars the "4 million  number is exageration and unrealistic. Only
about 1 million victims can be considered."
	The museum's director  Mr. Piper said, that new marble tables would
only be  erected when an international organization presents the true
figures and data  and makes it public: statistically how many Jews and
other nationalities were victims in Auschwitz."
	Pertaining to the subject  Professor Yehuda Bauer of Jerusalem wrote
in1991 in THE CANADIAN JEWISH NEWS:
	"(...) the French Jewish  historian George Wellers, himself an
Auschwitz survivor,  determined the total number of victims in the
whole Auschwitz complex at about 1.6 million. Of these, about
1,350,000 died of maltreatment, and the rest by gassing. The total
number of Poles killed there was 83,000. Twenty thousand Gypsies and
11,000 Russians were also murdered there.
In the meantime, Polish scholars arrived at substantially the same
figures. The figure of four million was never used by Raul Hilberg,
for instance, because it was obviously a propaganda figure, without
any basis, invented by Polish communists, whose aim was basically the
same as that of David Irving, namely the denial of the specificity of
the Holocaust.
	The number was therefore NOT "REDUCED" BUT CORRECTED. The total number
of the victims of the Holocaust was about 5.8 million, including of
course those who died at Auschwitz." [Prof.Yehuda Bauer, Jerusalem/
Quoted from the CANADIAN JEWISH NEWS, January 17, 1991]
	One has to wonder though, why world Jewry did not bother to complain
about the erection of  the 19 marble tables with 4 million names on
them in Auschwitz in the first place?  
	The  visit by the pope and a group of  survivors dates back to 1982.
So it took almost 8  years (to 1990) to realize  that the Polish
communists  actually "used the  4 million figure for propaganda"  to
the denial of the specificity of the Holocaust? Did the leaders of
Jews  not know about it? 
	Was  this same  "4 million"  figure also used after the war at the
Nuremberg trial? Can anyone out there answer to this one?...
	Raul Hilberg internationally known Jewish historian wrote his (790
pages) book THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWRY in 1961. Now then,
according to Prof. Yehuda Bauer "The figure of four million was never
used by Raul Hilberg.." Yet, for three long decades from 1961 to 1990
World Jewry's scholars - the likes of R. Hilberg -  actually ALLOWED
the propaganda of the Polish communists to erect 19 marble tables with
4 million names on them without any complaint or objection on the part
of Holocaust scholars? And all of a sudden in 1990  - 45 years after
the end of World War II they say, .... oh so sorry,  the figures are a
little bit  wrong, we are not reducing, just correcting... 
	 And all along those damned communists  are the ones  responsible for
not using  true figures of the Holocaust...!???
				* 
	So you see dr. Keren - with all due respect - , you do supply us with
"evidences"  of all kinds, which most of the time speak for
themselves....
Judit Toth
===========================================================================

	

	




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Tue Oct  8 12:55:02 PDT 1996
Article: 72679 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 18:18:16 GMT
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A FREE DONATION FOR THE ENRICHMENT 
OF THE ARCHIVES OF THE NIZKOR PROJECT
	
	According to the  politically correct Zionist organizations,  "the
symbolical number of 6 million Jews  perished in WW II is a proven
historical fact" and nobody should even dare to have any doubts or
questions about it, ... indeed  Dr. Chaim Weizmann (president of
Israel in 1948)  president of the World Zionist Organization  on
November 25th, 1936 declared the "6 million" number to be symbolic of
the Jewish destiny. [Source: Chaim Weizmann: Reden und Aufsatze
1901-1936. jud. Bucherverlag Erwin Lowe, Berlin 1937)
	
	According to the Holocaust Encyclopedia published in 1990 by  the Yad
Vashem Institute in Jerusalem under the direction of  Professor Izrael
Gutman "5,5 - 5,8 million Jews perished during WW II."
	THE AMERICAN HEBREW in its October 31st, 1919 issue Martin H. Glynn
ex-Governor of New York State wrote "The Crucifixtion of Jews Must
Stop!" [Yes, you read it well: as early as in 1919 they talk about
the murder of "6 million Jews" when according  to official sources
the number of European Jewry was 11 million !]

THE WAR OF NUMBERS 
			I.
According to "accepted and proven  Historical facts" from the Jewish
Encyclopedia (Publ. 1970):
World Jewry in 1900 ................. 11 million
World Jewry in In 1939............	  16,658,000
European Jewry  1939 ............    9,650,000

	compare this to

			II.
The American Jewish Year Book (1918-1919)
World Jewry /1917/................	15,124,349
European Jewry /1917/..........10,891,917
[So, taking the two official sources into account  there is an
incredible  difference  of -- 4,124,349 --   increase in the number of
Jews within 17 years. How can two official sources have such wide
difference?]

ABOUT NATURAL BIRTHRATES	
	 Professor U.O. Schmelz - in  the Jewish Year Book (1980) published by
Hebrew University - enumerates the increase in the number of Jews in
13 countries between 1959 and 1975. With the exception of  Israel,
where the increase is 1.7% per year, in  the rest of the 12 countries
named, not  even the 1% birthrate is reached. If we consider the
highest percentage of 1% increase, then within 17 years  the number of
Jewish population of the world is supposed to be increased by
1,870,000 and not more than 4 million. 
	Therefore, in the Jewish Year Book of 1918-19 instead of 15,124,349
there should have been only 12,870,000 for the number of Jews in the
world  -  a whopping difference of 3,254,349 !!!

			III.
American Jewish Year Book (1939-1940)
World Jewry ...........................	16,181,328 

[A difference of 477,682 between the Jewish Encycl. and the  American
Jewish Year Book.]

Jewish Encyclopedia (1970)
World Jewry /1939/.................	16,658,000 
[according to the natural increase stated by Prof. Schmelz 
 really this number should be 12,181,328]

Jewish Encyclopedia:
World Jewry /1954/................	.11,685,000
World Jewry /1967/................	 13,555,000

 12,658,000 minus 11,685,000 = 973,000 the number of Jews died?
			or maybe 
12,181,328 minus 11,685,000 = 496,328 the  number of Jews died?
			* * *
The New Judea (official organ of the Zionist Organization of England
XII / April, 1937.
	As distinct from the attitude of Weizmann, stood the alarm of Max
Nordau and Vladimir Jabotinsky.
	In the Zionist Congress of 1911, 22 years before Hitler came to power,
and three years before World War I, Nordau said, "How dare the smooth
talkers, the clever official blabbers, open their mouths and boast of
progress!? Here they hold jubilant peace conferences in which they
talk against war. But the same righteous Governments, who are so
nobly, industriously active to establish the eternal peace,  are
preparing, by their own confession, complete annihilation for six
million people, and there is nobody, except the doomed themselves, to
raise his voice in protest although this is a worse crime than any
war..."
	Vladimir Jabotinsky, in 1936, declared: "It is not our task to
establish in Palestine a home for selected people, not even a state
for a small portion of our people. The aim of our efforts is to
organize A SYSTEMATIC MASSIVE JEWISH EVACUATION  from all the
countries in which they live..."
	And in April, 1940, he declared in New York, "The transfer of millions
of Jews to their homeland will save the European Jewry from
extermination," and again, "evacuation of the masses is the only cure
for the Jewish catastrophe." (Ben Hecht, Perfidy, /p.254./ Julian
Messner, New York, 1961.)
	In 1990  - according to Prof. Yehuda Bauer - "the number of 4 million
victims in Auschwitz was corrected and not decreased." (Canadian
Jewish News, 1991)
				*
	Suffering tortures, inhuman treatments and death were inflicted upon
human beings of all nations  without exception  during the two wars.
Some nations lost more of their  population to atrocities, murder and
rape than others, and also suffered serious territorial losses because
of falsified Historical information, degenerate politicians, secret
pacts behind doors, lies and more lies. Human beings are human beings
who  suffer  equally and die  equally the way human beings do.
Therefore those,  -- however scholarly they may be --  who  tend to
differentiate between the quality/quantity of sufferings of a
specially chosen segment of humanity and  other victims considered of
"less importance"    -  based on their nationality, religion or race -
are racists of the worse kind and do not deserve any consideration.
Judit Toth
-------------- 






From jtoth@infobahnos.com Tue Oct  8 12:55:03 PDT 1996
Article: 72687 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 18:39:28 GMT
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ivanpv@aol.com (IVANPV) wrote:

>Definition of "Hate" 

>	 I am trying to come up with a better  understanding of this term
>so as not to use it improperly.
>    
>	Obviously, saying negative things about Jews or expressing views
>that might de-emphasize collective Jewish suffering  always constitutes
>"hate."

>	 Israel's  bombing of Lebanese civilians in refugee camps and 
>machine gunning Palestinian rock throwers definitely does not constitute
>"hate."   Should these Israeli actions be called "love?"
==============
ANSWER TO IVAN:
According to the politically correct  the "uncorrect" do hate Jews
because they are Jews based on their race, religion whatever... and
because of this of course  they have their human  right to defend
themselves from "haters of the world" no matter how this self-defense
is being carried out. If the world complains about their methods of
self-defense, then that is called "HATRED"., not because of what they
do  - you understand - but  because who they are!!! -  Therefore the
world should always accept everything THEY DO - unconditionally and
totally with Christian love.
	On the other hand, when "creatures of less importance" of humanity
happen to practice self-defense... that's called  "hatred" punishable
by stigma for generations to come.
Judit Toth
======== 



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Tue Oct  8 22:50:46 PDT 1996
Article: 72761 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 01:25:15 GMT
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1)CH.  SAUNDERS AKSED:
	< they are labelled an "anti-Semite."  What if this person has reasonble
> arguments against the Jews?  Should he not be allowed to publicly
> communicate to others his complaint regarding the Jews?  Are the Jews
> so holy and righteous that they have never, and are physically
> incapable of committing any wrongdoing?  I don't think so.
2) ANNIE ALPERT THE "EXPERT" miasaura@ccnis.net> wrote:
	<> 
3) TOTH WROTE:
	According to the politically correct  the "uncorrect" do hate Jews
> because they are Jews based on their race, religion whatever... and
> because of this of course  they have their human  right to defend
> themselves from "haters of the world" no matter how this self-defense
> is being carried out. If the world complains about their methods of
> self-defense, then that is called "HATRED"., not because of what they
> do  - you understand - but  because who they are!!! -  Therefore the
> world should always accept everything THEY DO - unconditionally and
> totally with Christian love.
>         On the other hand, when "creatures of less importance" of humanity
> happen to practice self-defense... that's called  "hatred" punishable
> by stigma for generations to come.

4) ANNIE ANSWERS TO THE ABOVE: << Judit, You've generated a very
convenient rationalization for your motives, but for the REST of the
world, hating people because they are Jewish--even IF you think that
Jews are evil and therefore worthy of being hated--is not a good
thing.>> 

5) TOTH ANSWERS: Annie you are skating around while trying to put
words in my mouth by saying that  I think the  "Jews are evil."  Are
they now, I wouldn't know? While the expression came off YOUR
keyboard, it just  never crossed my mind!. But tell us Annie, do Jews
know how to hate or not? Is there anybody  -- any nation or people --
in this world that the Jews actually  and really hate? 
	There is a whole lot said,  ad nauseam I must say,  about "the hatred
of Jews" while almost nothing we hear or read about the obvious hatred
of Gentiles. The word "anti-semitism" is literally worn out like a
broken record and almost nobody uses the expression of
"anti-Gentilism."
	 It is never a good thing to hate anyone of course, and generally most
people don't either. However,  when their livelihood,  country or
family is in danger one has the right for self-defense - regardless
who - black, white, Muslim, Jewish of Christian -  the agressor is.
The real problem of the Jews is that they are convinced of NEVER EVER
DOING ANYTHING WRONG! According to them the never hurt anybody and
they have the purity of the freshly fallen snow. And yes, when we
bring up things we don't like you doing to us, then we are Jew-haters,
and  anti-semites who only live on this planet to criticize the Sons
of the Covenant, God's only chosen people. [Next time I'll quote from
the TORAH and the TALMUD!]
	 Your very first sentence is correct and I could not agree with you
more on this. The Jews have bigots just like every nation on earth has
bigots. Why? Because we are all human beings. the difference is that
non-Jews admit this fact while Jews do not, because they must protect
their negative image - whether they are right or wrong. After a while
people  extremely frustrated when they realize that Jews somehow
always manage to  be right, even when they are very  wrong, There are
a few Jewish Historians - I of of at least a half a dozen - whose
works are only sold by teh socalled rightwingers! Did you know that? I
wonder where do they fit in with NIZKOR & CO?
THE LAND OF PROMISE
	Some Zionists  view the establishment of a state in the land of
Palestine by a 1947 UN resolution as being a fulfillment of biblical
prophecy and an event of apocalyptic significance. Where did the
expression "the land of promise" come from? And where is it heading
to?	
	According to Nachmanides [Rabbi Moses ben Nachman,  scholar and sage
of the 19th C.] to take possession of the Holy Land and to live in it
must be counted among the Biblical commandments incumbent upon Jews to
fulfill. It is written "You shall take possession of the land and
dwell therein, since I have given you this land to inherit it"
/Numbers 33:53/. He sees Israel's possession of the Holy Land as tied
in fact to the destiny of the world. "So long as Israel occupies it,
the earth is regarded as subject to Him." - said Nachmanides. [Source:
Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin: TO BE A JEW, (USA) 1949. page 13.]
	You compared Judaism as "religion" and Israel as "a country"  to
apples and oranges. Well, Annie these delicious fruits are known to
have vitamins, therefore why don't you make yourself a big bowl of
fruit salad with it?...But please don't feed it to us!...
Judit Toth
-----------------












From jtoth@infobahnos.com Wed Oct  9 13:25:27 PDT 1996
Article: 72878 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:12:10 GMT
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mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:16:35 -0400, "Annie Alpert, OFB"
> wrote:

>>Judith Toth wrote:
>>> ANSWER TO IVAN:
>>> According to the politically correct  the "uncorrect" do hate Jews
>>> because they are Jews based on their race, religion whatever... and
>>> because of this of course  they have their human  right to defend
>>> themselves from "haters of the world" no matter how this self-defense
>>> is being carried out. If the world complains about their methods of
>>> self-defense, then that is called "HATRED"., not because of what they
>>> do  - you understand - but  because who they are!!! -  Therefore the
>>> world should always accept everything THEY DO - unconditionally and
>>> totally with Christian love.
>>>         On the other hand, when "creatures of less importance" of humanity
>>> happen to practice self-defense... that's called  "hatred" punishable
>>> by stigma for generations to come.

>>ANNIE ALPERT WROTE: <>motives, but for the REST of the world, hating people because they are
>>Jewish--even IF you think that Jews are evil and therefore worthy of
>>being hated--is not a good thing.>>  

	WHO WROTE THIS? <> 
---
	TOTH ANSWERS: =====
>Read the information holohuggers fear
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
>http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
>http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side





From jtoth@infobahnos.com Wed Oct  9 13:25:28 PDT 1996
Article: 72891 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:59:18 GMT
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&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
"ANNIE ALPERT, OFB"the expert   snipped the text
below posted earlier by Judit Toth. Ms Alpert  who couldn't take an
another politically uncorrect view and called it 
 "anti-Zionist diatribe!" 
 
	<<>>
Judit Toth

[ Could it be possible that although right-winged ideas are considered
dangerous, however when "anti-Zionist" Jews talk that means war? Where
is the socalled tolerance, folks?-TJ]

ANNIE WRITES: <>

TOTH ANSWERS: I don't doubt that your Jewish  friends are all very
nice to you, dear!  I know some myself.... And the reason you do not
hear about "anti-Gentilism" is because of the "dedicated ones"  like
you, honey! You live in a Zionist -protected glass bubble and have no
idea about the rest of the outside world and you don't really care.
But "anti-Gentilism" or hatred towrad Christians DOES EXIST, whether
you are willing to admit it or not! I could,... and perhaps I should
post some examples.

ALPERT WROTE: <>

TOTH ANSWERS: You said it not I! No one needs to be attacked, and
self-defense is only neccessary when the one's life is in danger. Get
it? Of course ANYBODY on thei earth can be attacker or aggressor
regardless their religous affiliation, race, nationality... However on
the subject of self-defense I could write volumes! - Just like dr.
Keren now you are also asking for EVIDENCE?

ALPERT: <>

TOTH: Frankly I really don't care what you are, dear, or who you are.
I couldn't care less if you were an amazone from the planet Jupiter
or a nun from the Vatican!!! But why the explanation for
identification about your "religion" and where you were confirmed? Who
cares? I certainly didn't ask for it. 

 TOTH WROTE EARLIER: <<>>

AND HERE ALPERT REALLY GETS OFF HER TRACK: <>

TOTH WROTE: <<
References: <323e9a12.644105@news.pacificnet.net> <53aup7$pmo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <53c9ne$13@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <325A590F.48BF@ccnis.net> <53ejb9$len@news1.total.net> <53gqgq$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>WM. ANDERSON WROTE: <>>
	TOTH  ANSWERS:<<< Yes, I know you demand EVIDENCE
 and you shall get it.... in writing for everyone to see. 
	Not every Jew  is committing  crimes against other people ,....  every
5 year old kid knows this, but you feel it must be spelled out!
However, Jews who commit  or committed crimes, atrocities  against
other fellow human beings (nations!) should be brought to Justice and
publicly denounced by  some organization which represents every single
Jew on the planet. Yes, this would be the correct procedure.  Is this
happening in Eastern Europe? NO! I am told, by one of your "abstract'
friends on  that "Eastern Europeans should be happy
for their bloodless revolution. Life is not perfect!"... 
Judit Toth
&&&&&&&&&&




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Thu Oct 10 18:08:06 PDT 1996
Article: 73126 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE:THE WAR OF NUMBERS
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 03:23:41 GMT
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A FREE DONATION FOR THE ENRICHMENT 
OF THE ARCHIVES OF THE NIZKOR PROJECT
	
	According to the  politically correct Zionist organizations,  "the
symbolical number of 6 million Jews  perished in WW II is a proven
historical fact" and nobody should even dare to have any doubts or
questions about it, ... indeed  Dr. Chaim Weizmann (president of
Israel in 1948)  president of the World Zionist Organization  on
November 25th, 1936 declared the "6 million" number to be symbolic of
the Jewish destiny. [Source: Chaim Weizmann: Reden und Aufsatze
1901-1936. jud. Bucherverlag Erwin Lowe, Berlin 1937)
	
	According to the Holocaust Encyclopedia published in 1990 by  the Yad
Vashem Institute in Jerusalem under the direction of  Professor Izrael
Gutman "5,5 - 5,8 million Jews perished during WW II."
	THE AMERICAN HEBREW in its October 31st, 1919 issue Martin H. Glynn
ex-Governor of New York State wrote "The Crucifixtion of Jews Must
Stop!" [Yes, you read it well: as early as in 1919 they talk about
the murder of "6 million Jews" when according  to official sources
the number of European Jewry was 11 million !]

THE WAR OF NUMBERS 
			I.
According to "accepted and proven  Historical facts" from the Jewish
Encyclopedia (Publ. 1970):
World Jewry in 1900 ................. 11 million
World Jewry in In 1939............	  16,658,000
European Jewry  1939 ............    9,650,000

	compare this to

			II.
The American Jewish Year Book (1918-1919)
World Jewry /1917/................	15,124,349
European Jewry /1917/..........10,891,917
[So, taking the two official sources into account  there is an
incredible  difference  of -- 4,124,349 --   increase in the number of
Jews within 17 years. How can two official sources have such wide
difference?]

ABOUT NATURAL BIRTHRATES	
	 Professor U.O. Schmelz - in  the Jewish Year Book (1980) published by
Hebrew University - enumerates the increase in the number of Jews in
13 countries between 1959 and 1975. With the exception of  Israel,
where the increase is 1.7% per year, in  the rest of the 12 countries
named, not  even the 1% birthrate is reached. If we consider the
highest percentage of 1% increase, then within 17 years  the number of
Jewish population of the world is supposed to be increased by
1,870,000 and not more than 4 million. 
	Therefore, in the Jewish Year Book of 1918-19 instead of 15,124,349
there should have been only 12,870,000 for the number of Jews in the
world  -  a whopping difference of 3,254,349 !!!

			III.
American Jewish Year Book (1939-1940)
World Jewry ...........................	16,181,328 

[A difference of 477,682 between the Jewish Encycl. and the  American
Jewish Year Book.]

Jewish Encyclopedia (1970)
World Jewry /1939/.................	16,658,000 
[according to the natural increase stated by Prof. Schmelz 
 really this number should be 12,181,328]

Jewish Encyclopedia:
World Jewry /1954/................	.11,685,000
World Jewry /1967/................	 13,555,000

 12,658,000 minus 11,685,000 = 973,000 the number of Jews died?
			or maybe 
12,181,328 minus 11,685,000 = 496,328 the  number of Jews died?
			* * *
The New Judea (official organ of the Zionist Organization of England
XII / April, 1937.
	As distinct from the attitude of Weizmann, stood the alarm of Max
Nordau and Vladimir Jabotinsky.
	In the Zionist Congress of 1911, 22 years before Hitler came to power,
and three years before World War I, Nordau said, "How dare the smooth
talkers, the clever official blabbers, open their mouths and boast of
progress!? Here they hold jubilant peace conferences in which they
talk against war. But the same righteous Governments, who are so
nobly, industriously active to establish the eternal peace,  are
preparing, by their own confession, complete annihilation for six
million people, and there is nobody, except the doomed themselves, to
raise his voice in protest although this is a worse crime than any
war..."
	Vladimir Jabotinsky, in 1936, declared: "It is not our task to
establish in Palestine a home for selected people, not even a state
for a small portion of our people. The aim of our efforts is to
organize A SYSTEMATIC MASSIVE JEWISH EVACUATION  from all the
countries in which they live..."
	And in April, 1940, he declared in New York, "The transfer of millions
of Jews to their homeland will save the European Jewry from
extermination," and again, "evacuation of the masses is the only cure
for the Jewish catastrophe." (Ben Hecht, Perfidy, /p.254./ Julian
Messner, New York, 1961.)
	In 1990  - according to Prof. Yehuda Bauer - "the number of 4 million
victims in Auschwitz was corrected and not decreased." (Canadian
Jewish News, 1991)
				*
	Suffering tortures, inhuman treatments and death were inflicted upon
human beings of all nations  without exception  during the two wars.
Some nations lost more of their  population to atrocities, murder and
rape than others, and also suffered serious territorial losses because
of falsified Historical information, degenerate politicians, secret
pacts behind doors, lies and more lies. Human beings are human beings
who  suffer  equally and die  equally the way human beings do.
Therefore those,  -- however scholarly they may be --  who  tend to
differentiate between the quality/quantity of sufferings of a
specially chosen segment of humanity and  other victims considered of
"less importance"    -  based on their nationality, religion or race -
are racists of the worse kind and do not deserve any consideration.
Judit Toth
-------------- 






From jtoth@infobahnos.com Thu Oct 10 23:06:27 PDT 1996
Article: 73175 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 04:48:10 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <53hjjq$4g1@news1.total.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53f7v4$5s@access1.digex.net> <53gd35$2ev@faith.total.net> <53h4kk$ags@access5.digex.net>
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[postings cut because of length]
mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
	MIKE STEIN WROTE: << Excuse me, but why are you entitled to assume
that the Jewish Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other
one?>>
TOTH ANSWERS: <<< Are YOU entitled to doubt either one? The  sources -
since politically correct always demands EVIDENCE and documentation -
were posted because they are interesting. You found them interesting
enought to reply, didn't you? So did others? Instead of refuting you
become defending.
STEIN WROTE: <<< I am telling you that you arbitrarily selected the
data you liked and rejected data you didn't like when making your
argument.  You did that without justifying your selectivity.  That is
not intellectually honest.>>>
TOTH: <<< Are you suffering from "labelitis" also? Why on earth don't
you bring in you documentaion and show everyone where I was wrong
instead of putting on you broken record?... Refute Bob, or step aside!
----
TOTH WROTE: <<>>

STEIN WROTE: <<< It certainly cannot be practiced by liars.  Please
see my series "Revisionist Def Comedy Jam."  Then I would appreciate
your answer to the question: what kind of truth seeking is it that
needs lies to support it?>>>

TOTH ANSWERS:  So according to you and your "employer" there is no
other truth except YOURS? The only data, the only figures, the only
History in existence written by you?  Whom do you take human beings
for? Fools? Do you think we are all your hordes of sheep with no
brains at all?

STEIN WROTE: <<<  I am telling you there are two different numbers
>from  two different sources.  You don't even know (nor do I) if they
are based on the same criteria.  For example, if the lower number is
based on the definition of "Jew" as "one who observes the Jewish
religion," while the larger is based on an ethnic definition, they
might well both be correct, and comparing the two would be comparing
apples and oranges.
	 Again, I don't know.  But I don't think you do either.  Yet you based
an argument on the figures.  You are doing everything except answering
the question as to why you are entitled to make the assumptions you
made. 
	TOTH: [And here we are told that "Jews died in the Holocaust because
of the racism of Hitler?" Now are the Jews a race or a religion? They
died as what? According to your friend Bill Anderson "THE JEWS" are
abstract?]

TOTH WROTE: <<>

STEIN:<<< Excuse me?  As far as I could tell from your original post,
there was only one edition of the Jewish Encyclopedia under
discussion.  The source with multiple editions was the American Jewish
Yearbook, and the different editions seemed to be consistent with each
other.  >>>
	[ I only quoted the 1970 Jewish Encyclopedia, it was your job to quote
and compare it to the latest edition! TJ]

TOTH WROTE: <<>>

STEIN: <<< I have made no claim.  I have explicitly said that I do not
know the definitions or the methodology used to generate the different
numbers. But apparently neither do you.  Yet you are the one claiming
that the _higher_ number was a false one which must be rejected.
Therefore you are the one bearing a burden of proof.>>> 

TOTH: <<>>

STEIN: <<< And where have I said anything remotely like this?
Nowhere, of course.  The only thing I have requested is that you
justify your arbitrary acceptance of one statistic and blithe
dismissal of the other. Your reply was a rather hysterical attack on
things I never said.  Now can you justify your methodology or can't
you? >>>

>    Posted/emailed.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
==================================================================
P.S. I am... we are all waiting to see your posting that would
"correct" the one put up by me.
Judit Toth
------------ 




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Thu Oct 10 23:06:28 PDT 1996
Article: 73180 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 05:59:16 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <53kc3c$t42@faith.total.net>
References: <323e9a12.644105@news.pacificnet.net> <53aup7$pmo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <53c9ne$13@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <325A590F.48BF@ccnis.net> <53ejb9$len@news1.total.net> <53gqgq$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53hji0$4g1@news1.total.net> 
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Discourse between Charles L. Power & Judit Toth
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power):

>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
TOTH:<<<  Jews who commit  or committed crimes, atrocities  against
other fellow human beings (nations!) should be brought to Justice and
publicly denounced by  some organization which represents every single
Jew on the planet. >>>

CHARLES L. POWER: <<>>

TOTH ANSWERS: <<< You are skating, Charlie!  In two short 
sentences you first  state that  "there is no organization which
represents every single Jew on the planet." What about World Jewsih
Congress and B'nai B'rith... to name a few? Then you say I am  [TJ]
selective in my  demands.  And for your  big finale to everyone busy
in the world of Christianity you keep harping on the morals and sins
of the different Churches' priests etc....So the final conclusion is:
Jewish criminals simply cannot be accounted for their deeds. But tell
me, is there ONE... name  at least ONE Jewish organization that ever
denounced or brougth to Justice one single Jew who committed
atrocities against other human beings!!!

POWER WROTE:<<<(..)  Eastern Europeans by and large do seem to prefer
a relatively bloodless revolution, given that only Ceaucescu and his
lady were killed. I did not say that this is as it should be. However,
attempting vengeance against large populations could lead to still
worse situations, as various communist revolutions themselves
demonstrate. If it were practical and would not lead to worse results,
I would prefer that all abusers of power be punished, not just in
communist and ex-communist countries but all over the world, for
instance those who raped and murdered nuns in El Salvador, and those
who made the verb "to disappear" transitive in Argentina. And every
human being who willingly aided the Holocaust, most of whom in fact
have suffered no judicial repercussions and never will.

>You insinuate that I am somehow myself protecting communist criminals from
>just punishment. Is this indeed what you mean to say? If so, how is this
>my responsibility? If Todor Zhivkov, for instance, is to be punished, is
>this not a decision for the people of Bulgaria to make? Or do you think
>that the United States is in a position to march in and take charge of
>such matters?>>>

TOTH ANSWERS: <<< I sincerely hope that people read your stuff in
Eastern Europe and coming from that part of the  world myself I have
to say to you sir, that your Historical knowledge is frightfully
shallow! Of course this is not entirely your fault, but you don't even
bother to correct it. The United States was in a position to march in
to Hungary in 1956 to help the freedom fighters, even Radio Free
Europe made them believe that the "keep up the good work boys, the
Americans are coming, just hold out, folks!" Of course they never came
and later we found out why: D. Eisenhower sent a secret telegram to to
marshal Tito to Belgrade giving the Moscovites his whole heartedly
assurance that the Government of the USA would not allow the victory
of an anti-Soviet uprising right in the neighbourhood of the Soviet
Union." So you see, the 1956 UPRISING had to crushed, the Freedom of
the Hungarian people was lost because the US made that possible. So
God forbid.... with friends like Eisenhower and his gang who needs
enemies? Right?...

And who is talking about "attempting vengeance against large
populations"?  What are you talking about??? What "large populations"?
You probably think that large populations are Communists over there?
Come to  think of it you are convinced  that the populations of the
countries of Eastern Europe ARE ALL COMMUNISTS, aren't you?
 This stems from the propaganda delivered even today by the
politically correct  that those poor people were  so grateful during
WW II. to be  "liberated from Fascism."

Do you have any idea who sits in Parlament in Hungary, for example? I
You say you "would prefer that all abusers of power be punished"....?
except of course  when it comes to certain minorities, whose crimes
are protected by SECRET PACTS since 1989.

Your discourse ends with "and every human being [should be punished]
who willingly aided the Holocaust, most of whom in fact have suffered
no judicial repercussions and never will." And who are these
creatures,  - may I ask - who got away "scot-free from the Nuremberg
Trials, the OSS, or the long hands of Simon Wiesenthal? -- And now I
shall turn around your statement: Every human being should be punished
- Christian, Jewish, Gypsy,  ateist... whatever -  who willingly aided
the Soviet hordes in 1944-45 most of whom in fact suffered no judicial
repercussions and never will." 

I have nothing futher to say to you on the subject, however I feel
there is an urgent need for clarification of Historical facts  and
happenings - past and present - in Eastern Europe. There are two
possibilities: (1) you really are hopelessly in the dark and don't
have the faintest idea of what you are talking about; or (2) you are a
resolute agent to systematically propagate disinformation for special
political purposes of certain interest groups. Which one are you?....
Judit Toth
--------------  





From jtoth@infobahnos.com Thu Oct 10 23:06:29 PDT 1996
Article: 73181 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT KIND OF GOD IS "THE LORD YOUR GOD"?
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:03:14 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <53kcaq$t42@faith.total.net>
References: <323e9a12.644105@news.pacificnet.net> <53ejb9$len@news1.total.net> <53gqgq$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53hji0$4g1@news1.total.net> <53ho4l$h68@access5.digex.net>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <53hji0$4g1@news1.total.net>,
>Judith Toth  wrote:
>>libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
=================================================================
TOTH WROTE: <<>>

MCHAEL P. STEIN INTERPRETS: <<
References: <323e9a12.644105@news.pacificnet.net> <53aup7$pmo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <53c9ne$13@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <325A590F.48BF@ccnis.net> <53ejb9$len@news1.total.net> <53gqgq$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53hji0$4g1@news1.total.net> 
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.197
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Discourse between Charles L. Power & Judit Toth
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power):

>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
TOTH:<<<  Jews who commit  or committed crimes, atrocities  against
other fellow human beings (nations!) should be brought to Justice and
publicly denounced by  some organization which represents every single
Jew on the planet. >>>

CHARLES L. POWER: <<>>

TOTH ANSWERS: <<< You are skating, Charlie!  In two short 
sentences you first  state that  "there is no organization which
represents every single Jew on the planet." What about World Jewsih
Congress and B'nai B'rith... to name a few? Then you say I am  [TJ]
selective in my  demands.  And for your  big finale to everyone busy
in the world of Christianity you keep harping on the morals and sins
of the different Churches' priests etc....So the final conclusion is:
Jewish criminals simply cannot be accounted for their deeds. But tell
me, is there ONE... name  at least ONE Jewish organization that ever
denounced or brougth to Justice one single Jew who committed
atrocities against other human beings!!!

POWER WROTE:<<<(..)  Eastern Europeans by and large do seem to prefer
a relatively bloodless revolution, given that only Ceaucescu and his
lady were killed. I did not say that this is as it should be. However,
attempting vengeance against large populations could lead to still
worse situations, as various communist revolutions themselves
demonstrate. If it were practical and would not lead to worse results,
I would prefer that all abusers of power be punished, not just in
communist and ex-communist countries but all over the world, for
instance those who raped and murdered nuns in El Salvador, and those
who made the verb "to disappear" transitive in Argentina. And every
human being who willingly aided the Holocaust, most of whom in fact
have suffered no judicial repercussions and never will.

>You insinuate that I am somehow myself protecting communist criminals from
>just punishment. Is this indeed what you mean to say? If so, how is this
>my responsibility? If Todor Zhivkov, for instance, is to be punished, is
>this not a decision for the people of Bulgaria to make? Or do you think
>that the United States is in a position to march in and take charge of
>such matters?>>>

TOTH ANSWERS: <<< I sincerely hope that people read your stuff in
Eastern Europe and coming from that part of the  world myself I have
to say to you sir, that your Historical knowledge is frightfully
shallow! Of course this is not entirely your fault, but you don't even
bother to correct it. The United States was in a position to march in
to Hungary in 1956 to help the freedom fighters, even Radio Free
Europe made them believe that the "keep up the good work boys, the
Americans are coming, just hold out, folks!" Of course they never came
and later we found out why: D. Eisenhower sent a secret telegram to to
marshal Tito to Belgrade giving the Moscovites his whole heartedly
assurance that the Government of the USA would not allow the victory
of an anti-Soviet uprising right in the neighbourhood of the Soviet
Union." So you see, the 1956 UPRISING had to crushed, the Freedom of
the Hungarian people was lost because the US made that possible. So
God forbid.... with friends like Eisenhower and his gang who needs
enemies? Right?...

And who is talking about "attempting vengeance against large
populations"?  What are you talking about??? What "large populations"?
You probably think that large populations are Communists over there?
Come to  think of it you are convinced  that the populations of the
countries of Eastern Europe ARE ALL COMMUNISTS, aren't you?
 This stems from the propaganda delivered even today by the
politically correct  that those poor people were  so grateful during
WW II. to be  "liberated from Fascism."

Do you have any idea who sits in Parlament in Hungary, for example? I
You say you "would prefer that all abusers of power be punished"....?
except of course  when it comes to certain minorities, whose crimes
are protected by SECRET PACTS since 1989.

Your discourse ends with "and every human being [should be punished]
who willingly aided the Holocaust, most of whom in fact have suffered
no judicial repercussions and never will." And who are these
creatures,  - may I ask - who got away "scot-free from the Nuremberg
Trials, the OSS, or the long hands of Simon Wiesenthal? -- And now I
shall turn around your statement: Every human being should be punished
- Christian, Jewish, Gypsy,  ateist... whatever -  who willingly aided
the Soviet hordes in 1944-45 most of whom in fact suffered no judicial
repercussions and never will." 

I have nothing futher to say to you on the subject, however I feel
there is an urgent need for clarification of Historical facts  and
happenings - past and present - in Eastern Europe. There are two
possibilities: (1) you really are hopelessly in the dark and don't
have the faintest idea of what you are talking about; or (2) you are a
resolute agent to systematically propagate disinformation for special
political purposes of certain interest groups. Which one are you?....
Judit Toth
--------------  





From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 11 00:35:11 PDT 1996
Article: 73204 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE WAR OF Lies
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:23:54 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <53kh20$42o@faith.total.net>
References: <53k31d$je3@news1.total.net> <53k7gn$d9n@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.197
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <53k31d$je3@news1.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com lied
>when she wrote:

>>A FREE DONATION FOR THE ENRICHMENT 
>>OF THE ARCHIVES OF THE NIZKOR PROJECT

KEN MCVEY WROTE: <<<<>I don't mind your cluttering up the disks, but
do try and find something new, won't you? Dan Gannon introduced
Glynn's magazine article in January of 1994... you would have found it
here, and discussion of its contents, if you had bothered to
do some very basic research....  (http://www.nizkor.org/search.html)

TOTH WROTE: <<>>

>MCVEY WROTE: <<correct.. good start... Oops! I cannot locate the part which
>says that 6 million Jews are going to be murdered.... perhaps,
>if you read the article yourself, you can point out the part
>where "they" talk about the "murder" of "6 million Jews"... my 
>tired old eyes just can't seem to locate it.....>>>

TOTH ANSWERS: <<<  They probably meant  "Crucifixion"  metaphorically
when Jews were at that time with Hitler nowhere in sight -- according
to some observers  --  "prosecuted and the victims of anti-semitism."
Yes, you are right "they" talk about "the crucifixion of 6 millions
Jews" and not the "murder of". But do you know of anyone who  survived
crucifixion before? Once one is on  the cross that's it, Bob.... you
good as dead...

I could say for example that 10 million Hungarians in Hungary, 
1 million Hungarians in Slovakia, 3 million Hungarians in Romania and
almost a million Hungarians in ex-Yugoslavia are being crucified RIGHT
NOW under reform-Communist rule applauded by the Clinton
administration in Washington! 
	THIS IS ALSO CRUCIFIXION...
Judit Toth
--------------




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 11 00:35:12 PDT 1996
Article: 73210 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 04:46:34 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Judith Toth (jtoth@infobahnos.com) wrote:
>: "ANNIE ALPERT, OFB"the expert   snipped the text

>:  TOTH WROTE EARLIER: <<: convinced of NEVER EVER  DOING ANYTHING WRONG! According to them the
>: never hurt anybody and  they have the purity of the freshly fallen
>: snow. And yes, when we  bring up things we don't like you doing to us,
>: then we are Jew-haters,  and  anti-semites who only live on this
>: planet to criticize the Sons  of the Covenant, God's only chosen
>: people.>>>
>: 
>: AND HERE ALPERT REALLY GETS OFF HER TRACK: <: company, Judit.  When you judge all people (?????? Sure, and why not
>: bring in the planet's  civilization????? TJ)  in a group by
>: stereotypical imagry, you are not being fair--in fact, I would
>: call that bigotry. >>
>: 
>: TOTH WROTE: <<: ask whether  the Jews  ever do wrong things on this earth?  

>BILL ANDERSON libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
<<>>
Bill

TOTH ANSWERS: 
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THE RED RAPISTS  OF ILYA  EHRENBURG
	A few days ago on this alt.rev. discussion group D. Keren 
asked  me for "EVIDENCE" on th behaviour of the Red Army in Hungary
during WW II. The Jews of Hungary even today talk about "liberation
>from  Fascism" for which the are ever so grateful to the Red Army. On
the other hand how  the rest of the population is supposed to feel
about "their liberation"?  Here are a few quotations from books not
written by Hungarian authors, describing this "liberation" which at
the time probably gave a completely new meaning to the word. Let this
also be a memento to all those who fought for liberty to the very end,
to all the women, young girls and also men -- not only in Hungary, but
in Germany as well --  who suffered from the barbarism of  Ilya
Ehrenburgs' red rapists and murderers. He can be proud of his boys!
	One wonders if Ehrenburg  composed his pamphlets of instruction  from
the Torah?....
	CAPTURED TOWNS /Deuteronomy 20:10-20/ Jerusalem Bible, p.209.
"When you advance to the attack on any town, first offer it terms of
peace. If it accepts these and opens its gates to you, all the people
to be found in it shall do FORCED LABOR FOR YOU and be subject to you.
But if it refuses peace and offers resistance, you must lay SIEGE to
it. Yahweh your God shall deliver it into  your power and you are to
put  ALL ITS MENFOLK TO THE SWORD.  But the women, the children, the
livestock and all that the town contains, all its spoil, YOU  MAY TAKE
for yourselves as BOOTY.. You will devour the spoil of your enemies
which Yahweh YOU GOD  has delivered to you.
	That is how you will treat the far-distant towns not belonging to the
nations near you. But as regards the towns of those peoples which
Yahweh your God gives you as your own inheritance, YOU MUST NOT SPARE
THE LIFE OF ANY LIVING THING. Instead, you must lay them under ban,
the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites,
as Yahweh your God commanded, so that they may not teach you to
practice all the detestable practices they have in honor of their gods
and so cause you to sin against Yahweh your God.
	If, when attacking a town, you have to besiege it for a long time
before you capture it, you must not destroy its trees by taking an ax
to them: eat their fruit but do not cut them down. Is the tree in the
fields human that you should besiege it too? Any trees, however, which
you know are not fruit trees, you may mutilate and cut down and use to
build siege-works against the hostile town until it falls." ...
	                                             *
THE RED ARMY FOLLOWED THE WORD OF  THEIR "GOD"?	
	At the end of WW II. the Russian army pushed into Hungary,
plundering, torturing and raping as they went. Several thousand
patriotic Hungarians put up a last ditch fight against this advance.
Hawthorne Daniel, The Ordeal of the Captive Nations (Garden
City, Doubleday, 1958. Chapt.11.) wrote:
	"The United States' Ambassador to Hungary at this time,
described the Russian behaviour as "a period of calculated
destruction. The Russian method of occupation follows a certain
pattern necessitated by the difference between the East and West in
standards of living."
	
	John F. Montgomery, Hungary: The Unwilling Satellite (New
York, Devin-Adair, 1947/ pg.210.) "After a spearhead of disciplined
troops which destroys any remaning opposition, propaganda shock troops
arrive. Their job is to destroy all evidence of higher than Russian
standards of living in enemy territory, before the ordinary soldiers
appear upon the scene.
	
	A man for example, who eats at a table and sleeps on a bed is
considered to be a bourgeois. Boxes had to be substituted for tables
and straw for beds. In Hungary such a policy meant destruction of
workers' and peasants' homes as well as those of the wealthy
classes."
Mr. Montgomery has also included in his book (pages 239-245)
an account of the Russian occupation of Hungary as seen by
members of the Swiss legation and consulate in Budapest. The
Swiss report describes the wholesale rape of women from age ten to
seventy; the widespread looting  and  the theft of funds from banks
and legation safes, including those belonging to other nations than
Hungary.

	 Ferenc Nagy, former Prime Minister of Hungary just after the
war, provides further proof of the absolute depravity of the Russian
soldiers, men and women, who were unleashed upon Hungary: "I
was dumbfounded also by the thoroughness of the occupation. Mass
units of the Red Army were found not only in the cities and on the
lines of communications, but even on the smallest farms and in the
fields. The people were in constant dread. The women of the small
cities and the villages lived in hiding to escape assault.
The life of the peasants in the vineyard districts was sheer hell,
where Red soldiers found stores of wine. On could not speak of
humanity, honor, decency or the sanctity of the family to drunken
Soviet soldiers. 

	They raped half-grown girls and screaming
grandmothers, they robbed the peasants of their animals, they stole
the linen and in many places even the furniture. Tens of thousands
of women and children were carried off and inflicted with venereal
diseases by ruthless Red soldiers. Lack of doctors and medicine, and
the innate shyness of the country-folk, prevented treatment.
The barbarism of the Soviet occupying forces can best be
judged by the fact that many thousands of Hungarian men were
raped or forced to unnatural excesses by Russian women soldiers. (!)
	
	The Reds established a recreation camp near Kecskemet for
more than thirty thousand sick and convalescent women members of
teh Soviet army and police forces. From this camp, for instance, The
Russian women banded together at night and swooped down upon
the surrounding hamlets, kidnaping the men and sometimes holding
them captive for days. Often these abductions led to the peculiar
situation of women and girls hiding, not themselves, but their men in
the forests and in haystacks to keep them from the disease-ridden
Soviet women troops."(The Struggle Behind The Iron Curtain (New
York: Macmillan, 1948, page 63.) 
                                                                * * *
THE STRANGE LIFE OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Ilya Ehrenburg, the leading Soviet propagandist of the Second  World
War, was a contradictory figure.
	A recent article in the weekly Canadian Jewish News sheds new light on
the life of this "man of a thousand masks." /Rose Kleiner, "Archives
to throw new light on Ehrenburg," Canadian Jewish  News [Toronto], 17
March, 1988, p.9./
	Ehrenburg was born in 1891 in Kiev to a non-religious Jewish family.
In 1908 he fled Tsarist Russia because of his revolutionary
activities.
	Although he returned to visit after the Bolshevik revolution, he
continued to live abroad, including many years in Paris, and did not
settle  in the Soviet Union until 1941.
	A prolific writer, Ehrenburg was the author of almost 30 books. The
central figure of one novel, The Stormy Life of Lazik Roitschwantz, is
a pathetic "luftmensch," a recurring character in Jewish literature
who seems to live "from the air" without visible means of support.
	As a Jew and a dedicated Communist, Ehrenburg was a relentless enemy
of German National Socialism.  During the Second World War, he was a
leading member of the Soviet-sponsored Jewish  Anti-Fascist Committee.
	[At fund-raising rallies in the United States for the Soviet war
effort, two leading members of the Committee displayed bars of soap
allegedly manufactured by the Germans from the corpses of murdered
Jews.]
	Ehrenburg is perhaps most infamous for his viciously anti-German
wartime propaganda. 
	
	In the words of the Canadian Jewish News:
	 "As the leading Soviet journalist during World War II, Ehrenburg's
writings against the German invaders were circulated among millions of
Soviet soldiers." 
	His article appeared in Pravda, Izvestia, the Soviet military daily,
Krasnaya Zvezda ["Red Star"], and in numerous leaflets distributed to
troops at the front.
	In one leaflet headlined "Kill," Ehrenburg incited Soviet soldiers to
treat Germans as sub-human. The final paragraph concludes:
	"The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means
to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us
to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited.
We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you
have wasted that day... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet,
kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the
front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the
meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian
and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another - there
is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not
count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans
killed by you. Kill the German - that is your grandmother's request.
Kill the German - that is your child's prayer. Kill the German - that
is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through.
Kill." [Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Routledge & Kegan
Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp.65-66, 201; and, Erich Kern (ed.),
Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ-Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-62,
353-55.]

	Ehrenburg's incidentary writings certainly contributed in no small
measure to the orgy of murder and rape by Soviet soldiers against
German [...AND HUNGARIANS!!! -J Toth] civilians.
	Until his death in 1967, "his support  for the Soviet state, and for
Stalin, never wavered," the Canadian Jewish News notes. His loyalty
and service were acknowledged in 1952 when he received the Stalin
Prize.
	In keeping with official Soviet policy, he publicly criticized Israel
and Zionism. The Canadian Jewish News further writes:
	"...the recent disclosure that Ehrenburg arranged to transfer his
private archives to Jerusalem's Yad Vashem library and archive, while
still alive, comes as a stunning revelation. The reason this
information has come to light only now is that Ehrenburg agreed to
transfer his archive on condition that the transfer, and his will,
remain secret for 20 years after his death. On Dec. 11th 1987, with
the 20-year period expired, Israel's daily MAARIV related Ehrenburg's
story..."
	The collection includes material about the important wartime Jewish
partisan movement. Among  the documents in the collection is one
concerning a pogrom in Malakhovka, a village near Moscow, which took
place in 1959.
	This new revelation about one of the most influential figures of the
Stalinist regime shows that, whatever he may have said for public
consumption, Ehrenburg never privately disavowed Zionism or ever
forgot his ancestry.
			* 
[The above article about Ehrenburg was written by Mark Weber in The
Journal of Historical Review, Vol.VIII, #4 - Winter, 1988-89. p.507.]
---
Posting by Judit Toth
---




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 13 08:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 73707 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 08:28:13 GMT
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) writes:

>>Ohhh.  So the Germans "deserved" it "IN LARGE PART."  Well, that changes 
> everything. 

>>So "only" 9 out of 10 of every German slaughtered, starved, raped, and 
> tortured deserved
>>it.  Oh, let's make that 8 out of 10, or 7 out of 10.   Or that each German 
> deserved 80%
>>percent of what each individually received.  The German woman mass-raped 
> by 30 Allied
>>soldiers only deserved to be penetrated by "only" 7 out of 10 Allied soldiers.

>>That really changes your position significantly, Charles. (not)

>Well, Kurtzi, let me explain it the way I assumed anyone with a brain 
>would have read my words in the first place. I know that you deniers
>suffer from brainlessness, but maybe if I detail this in really tiny
>steps you'll be able to follow me.

>I am convinced that during the Third Reich, most Germans cooperated
>with an evil government, and that they did this willingly, in the hope
>of immediate and long-range benefit to themselves. I think anyone who
>so acts deserves punishment. That some such people suffered after the
>war does not strike me as unjust. The German people as a whole hardly
>suffered as much as justice would dictate. But full justice is rarely
>available in situations of this sort, as I've tried to explain in
>other messages. It's not practical.

>I do not advocate rape as punishment for any crime. I do not advocate
>the death penalty for relatively passive support of the Nazi regime.
>But I do not mind a whole lot if many Germans went hungry for a little 
>while after the war, considering that they allowed Jews to starve to
>death while they had the upper hand.

>I note with interest your indignation over alleged misconduct by 
>Allied troops, and wonder if you have similar indignation for German
>mistreatment of Allied prisoners and noncombatant populations during 
>the war...
==============
karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
<<<  I do not mind a whole lot if many Germans went hungry for a
little  while after the war, considering that they allowed Jews to
starve to death while they had the upper hand.>>>

TOTH ANSWERS: <<< I guess you would also not have minded  to much if
Morgenthau would have realized his BIG PLAN?  Right? Morgenthau, who
of course  was Roosevelt's buddy  wanted to sterilize the whole German
population so that "they would not  bring into this world anymore
leaders like Hitler."
	And I bet you never had any problem with the more than 7 million
Ukranians who were systematically starved to death by the "glorious
Stalin?>

C.L.POWER WROTE:<<<..I am convinced that during the Third Reich, most
Germans cooperated.with an evil government, and that they did this
willingly, in the hope of immediate and long-range benefit to
themselves. I think anyone who so acts deserves punishment.>>>

TOTH ANSWERS: <<>> 
	And you talk about  " indignation over alleged (?) misconduct by 
Allied troops" as rubbish? Do you need EVIDENCE as well? You should be
very careful about this, there are a lot of survivors still in Eastern
Europe who could and would  testify about the "treatment" they
received from Ike's more than willing  boys!.... 
Judit Toth
========



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 13 08:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 73790 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:51:46 GMT
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net>,
>Judith Toth  wrote:

>[snip]


>>THE WAR OF NUMBERS 
>>			I.
>>According to "accepted and proven  Historical facts" from the Jewish
>>Encyclopedia (Publ. 1970):
>>World Jewry in 1900 ................. 11 million
>>World Jewry in In 1939............	  16,658,000
>>European Jewry  1939 ............    9,650,000
>>
>>	compare this to
>>
>>			II.
>>The American Jewish Year Book (1918-1919)
>>World Jewry /1917/................	15,124,349
>>European Jewry /1917/..........10,891,917
>>[So, taking the two official sources into account  there is an
>>incredible  difference  of -- 4,124,349 --   increase in the number of
>>Jews within 17 years. How can two official sources have such wide
>>difference?]
>>
>>ABOUT NATURAL BIRTHRATES	
>>	 Professor U.O. Schmelz - in  the Jewish Year Book (1980) published by
>>Hebrew University - enumerates the increase in the number of Jews in
>>13 countries between 1959 and 1975. With the exception of  Israel,
>>where the increase is 1.7% per year, in  the rest of the 12 countries
>>named, not  even the 1% birthrate is reached. If we consider the
>>highest percentage of 1% increase, then within 17 years  the number of
>>Jewish population of the world is supposed to be increased by
>>1,870,000 and not more than 4 million. 
>>	Therefore, in the Jewish Year Book of 1918-19 instead of 15,124,349
>>there should have been only 12,870,000 for the number of Jews in the
>>world  -  a whopping difference of 3,254,349 !!!

MIKE STEIN WROTE: << Excuse me, but why are you entitled to assume
that the Jewish Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other
one?>>

>>
>>			III.
>>American Jewish Year Book (1939-1940)
>>World Jewry ...........................	16,181,328 
>>
>>[A difference of 477,682 between the Jewish Encycl. and the  American
>>Jewish Year Book.]
>>
>>Jewish Encyclopedia (1970)
>>World Jewry /1939/.................	16,658,000 
>>[according to the natural increase stated by Prof. Schmelz 
>> really this number should be 12,181,328]

>    Again, why are you entitled to assume that the first number is correct
>and the later numbers are wrong and must be corrected?


>>Jewish Encyclopedia:
>>World Jewry /1954/................	.11,685,000
>>World Jewry /1967/................	 13,555,000
>>
>> 12,658,000 minus 11,685,000 = 973,000 the number of Jews died?
>>			or maybe 
>>12,181,328 minus 11,685,000 = 496,328 the  number of Jews died?

MIKE STEIN WROTE: << Ignoring the increase from 1947 to 1954, of
course. -   Remember: there are lies, there are damned lies, and then
there are statistics.>>

>    Posted/emailed.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
====================================================================
TOTH ANSWERS TO MIKE STEIN:
	Your "employer"?  And who is that, pray tell? 
	Of course there are LIES and LIES and LIES!  So  you are telling  us
that  previously published Jewish books, encyclopedias and year books
contain lies, the information in them is slanted? Therefore  only "the
recently  corrected"  figures and data is acceptable, is it? The old
books  are to be burned - or maybe this was already done during the
past 50 years? - somewhere on a public square?  
	That is why there is revisionism searching for the truth, my firend
which apparently can  only be practiced by the politically correct and
nobody else. Meaning: when you and your "employer" tell  the world
what the "correct"  truth is then, ..... with wild anticipation
everyone has to accept it no questions asked?  
	Mr. Stein is asking me "why are you entitled to assume that the Jewish
Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other one?"
	 Oh no! ... Don't tell me that History has been re-written? 
	Tell us Mr. Stein, on what basis  ARE YOU entitled to assume that the
figures in the Jewish  Enc. or the American Jewish Year Book are not
correct? Is the Jewish  Encyclopedia (1970 published in New York) has
ever been anywhere refuted or denounced by "you employer"? We are all
waiting for you answer?...- Maybe  the more contemporary edition of J
Enc. went under considerable "reconstruction"? Just like the 19 marble
tables of Auschwitz in 1990 with 4 million names on them?  And perhaps
you could quote the "new data and figures" from your new Jewish
Encyclopedia  so we can all see that your books' editors in 1918-19
gave out false information to the public, but NOW it is all corrected
and how this was done?
	Or are we not allowed to "meddle" in these affairs?
Judit Toth
============
	 




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 13 08:50:24 PDT 1996
Article: 73822 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE RED RAPISTS  OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:15:40 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) writes:

># A few days ago on this alt.rev. discussion group D. Keren 
># asked  me for "EVIDENCE" on th behaviour of the Red Army in
># Hungary during WW II.

>Let it be noted that you posted not one document proving
>the atrocities you claim took place, nor any physical evidence
>whatsoever. Such documents and physical evidence *are* supplied
>as proof of Nazi crimes. Yet, "revisionists" reject the reality
>of Nazi crimes,  while accepting each and every detail of alleged
>anti-German (or anti-Hungarian) crimes, even when no proof of
>them exists. 

># The barbarism of the Soviet occupying forces can best be
># judged by the fact that many thousands of Hungarian men were
># raped or forced to unnatural excesses by Russian women soldiers.

>And this, even before that crappy movie with Demi Moore... please.


>-Danny Keren.-----------------
------------------------------------------
TOTH ANSWERS: <<< So, according to you the Russian hordes "YOUR
DARLING LIBERATORS" didn't really do anything wrong, it was the Nazis
all the time who did the raping? You claim that my quotations "are
supplied as  proof of Nazi crimes". Is your writing  not tainted
somehow with your political outlook? [You keyborad can only write
"nazi crimes" nothing else!]
	You feel the "revisionists reject the realities of Nazi crimes"? YOU
reject the realities of Soviet crimes therefore you are no better than
those hated  revisionists! Right?  The score is 1:1???
	 You state that  the "revisionists reject the reality of Nazi crimes,"
well,  you --  the  number one apologist for  Soviets, --   don't seem
to be bothered to much with  Soviet  crimes, are you now? The
quotations were all describing Soviet crimes, how can they be "proofs
of Nazi crimes"? Then I have to call you a denier of  Soviet crimes.
We can turn the slogans and expressions around, you know! 

	You believe whatever you want, and accept anything you want. In front
of the whole world  you are making liers out of all the martyrs and
innocent victims who lost their lives because of  YOUR LIBERATORS.

	There are documents in Hungary that prove how freedom fighters were
executed on lies and false documents. The "lawyers" of the socalled
Peoples Democracy  after the war and especially 1956 even provided
dead bodies for the prosecution "as proof"! So don't tell me about
your "evidences" anymore! The only proof and physical evidence and
proof acceptable to you and your kind is what you approve of. Nobody
else counts. 
	Remember this! You don't have to accept anything from me or others.
Let the NUMBERS talk: -  the over 100 million victims of Communism.
And here again I am certain you will ask for "proof and evidence" of
the 100 million bodies? That's OK, we'll line them up for you! No
problem, doctor....
Judit Toth
-------------



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 13 11:33:58 PDT 1996
Article: 73864 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:44:34 GMT
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) writes:

TOTH: about "their liberation"?  Here are a few quotations from books
not
>>written by Hungarian authors, describing this "liberation" which at
>>the time probably gave a completely new meaning to the word. 

POWER: Why do you accept these often hearsay accounts? Do you accept
hearsay
>accounts of the Holocaust? What are your standards for evidence?

TOTH:  Let this
>>also be a memento to all those who fought for liberty to the very end,
>>to all the women, young girls and also men -- not only in Hungary, but
>>in Germany as well --  who suffered from the barbarism of  Ilya
>>Ehrenburgs' red rapists and murderers. He can be proud of his boys!

POWER: That Ehrenburg encouraged rape was a propaganda lie of the
Nazis. Having looked into the matter, I no longer have much doubt that
your quotes from Ehrenburg are accurate, but nowhere do they encourage
rape. Their  attitude, toward a bloodthirsty invader of his homeland
who followed no rules of war regarding combatants or noncombatants,
was quite simply  that the only good German was a dead German. This
may shock modern sensibilities for its lack of qualification, but it's
not unlike U.S. anti-Japanese propaganda, in particular, of the same
period, and after defeating the Japanese we were able to look past
such fanaticism and perpetrate the most benevolent military occupation
in human history.

TOTH ANSWERS: <<< You state that " I no longer have much doubt that
your quotes from Ehrenburg are accurate, but nowhere do they encourage
rape"? Grand Admiral Doenitz was supposed to be the successor of A.
Hitler, he is the one who signed the order for unconditional surrender
demanded by the victors on 7th May 1945 to take effect 9th of May
1945.He was condemned to 10 years of prison at the Nuremberg trials.
In his Memoirs, Admiral Doenitz wrote:
	"On October 1944 an appeal of the Red Army by the Jewish writer, Ilya
Ehrenburg made it quite clear. ' Kill, kill! In the German race there
is nothing but evil; not one among the living, not one among the yet
unborn but is evil! Follow the precepts of Comrade Stalin. Stamp out
the Fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break
the racial pride of the Germanic women. (In other words RAPE THEM! TJ)
Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! as you storm onwards, kill, you
gallant soldiers of the Red Army!" -  [Source: Grand Admiral Doenitz:
Ten Years and Twenty Days, translated from the French edition.]
	And by golly they did just that ... according to the Book of Moses!
All you have to do is compare the Ehrenburg appeal to Deut. 20: 10-20]

TOTH: One wonders if Ehrenburg  composed his pamphlets of instruction
>from  the Torah?....

POWER: I wonder if you're a Christian, Judith? If so, that's your Holy
>Scripture you're quoting. I fully agree that parts of it are vile,
>and the God portrayed in it is frequently vile, but then I'm an
>unbeliever. If you are a Christian, you must believe not that the
>Hebrews *wanted* to exterminate the indigenous population of Israel
>(which, in fact, they failed to do, much to the displeasure of their
>bloodthirsty God), but that they were *ordered* by the Almighty to
>do so.

TOTH: <<>plundering, torturing and raping as they went. Several thousand
>>patriotic Hungarians put up a last ditch fight against this advance.>>>

POWER: I accept that the Red Army committed atrocities, but what did
Ilya Ehrenburg have to do with this? Who is disputing this? (Asking
for evidence, or for equal application of standards of evidence, is 
not disputing anything.)
	
TOTH WROTE EARLIER: <<>>

POWER:<<< I would be interested in seeing documentation for this, as
to my  knowledge the soap story was spread in the West only after the
war. As has been shown many times on this newsgroup, there may indeed
be something to the story, but it never involved the corpses of Jews.
According to some accounts, the beheaded corpses of convicted
criminals were used in these experiments.>>>

TOTH: Ehrenburg's incidentary writings certainly contributed in no
small measure to the orgy of murder and rape by Soviet soldiers
against German [...AND HUNGARIANS!!! -J Toth] civilians.

POWER: How did "Kill Germans" contribute to inhumanities against
Hungarians? What is obvious here is that the Soviet Army had little
concept of  humane treatment of its enemies.

TOTH: <<< By inciting hatred among the already barbarous Soviet
hordes, of course! Until his death in 1967, "his support  for the
Soviet state, and for Stalin, never wavered," the Canadian Jewish News
notes. Not only many of his family members were Jewish, but  -- just
like Lenin -  he was  also a  Son of the Covenant.>>>

Ehrenburg was not the only one inciting hatred. 
Philippe  Aziz writes: "On May 24th, 1945 in Brisighella near Bologna,
the night before their departure for Germany the soldiers of the
Jewish Brigade listened in silence to one of their officers who read
them the COMMANDEMENTS of the Hebrew soldier on German soil:

- Souviens-toi de tes six millions de freres massacres.
- Hais pour toujours les bourreaux de ton peuple.
- Souviens-toi que tu es charge d'une mission par un peuple
combattant.
- Souviens-toi, que  la Brigade juive combattant est en Allemagne une
force d'occupation juive.
- Souviens-toi que notre apparition en tant que Brigade avec notre
embleme et notre drapeau, face au peuple allemand, est en soi une
vengeance.
- Souviens-toi que la vengeance du sang est la vengeance de la
communaute tout entiere, et que tout acte irresponsable va a
l'encontre de l'action de notre communaute.
- Conduis-toi en Juif fier de son peuple et de son drapeau.
- Ne salis pas ton honneur avec eux et ne te mele pas a eux.
- Ne les ecoute pas et ne va pas dans leurs maisons.
- Honnis soient-ils, eux, et leurs femmes et leurs enfants, et lerus
biens et tout ce qui est a eux, honnis pour toujours.
- Rappelle-toi que ta mission est le sauvetage des Juifs,
l'immigration en Israel, la liberation de la partie.
- Ton devoir est: devotion, fidelite et amour envers les rescapes de
la mort, les rescapes des camps.

The next day the special squad of executioners who wanted to take the
law in their own hands, dressed up in German uniforms they wanted to
kill as  many  German officers and their families as they possibly
could --  the Jewish Brigade  -- was arrested by the British
authorities ... of all people!
---
AND THE HATRED "MUST" GO ON!
According to Jewish sages:  "There will only be Jews on earth as long
as there is anti-semitism." - so keep the flames glowing!
Elie Wiesel certainly does his part of how to warm hatred in his heart
for generations to come. But he is allowed, he is not a Christian who
practices forgiveness, does he?
<<<(NIGHT, New York, Discus/Avon Books, 1969, p. 79).
    Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set apart a zone of hate
-- healthy, virile hate -- for what the German personifies and for
what persists in the German. To do otherwise would be a betrayal of
the dead.>>>

There are 2 editions of this book, 1968 and 1982; and this quote is
accurate. "Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set apart a zone
of hate -  healthy, virile hate - for what persists in the German. To
do otherwise  would be a betrayal of the dead."

The Legends of our Time, Schocken Books, 1982. It's a collection of
essays.
-------------
 To continue on Ehrenburg: 
POWER: <<>>

TOTH: And just WHO was this superficial acquaintance ?

POWER: <<>>

TOTH: He was criticized by whom? The Germans or the stalinist? Come
on!  Here we go again....  you are putting the socialdemocratic
equasion between marxism and nazism which of course is utter nonsense
even historically! 

TOTH'S EARLIER QUOTATION: <<>>

POWER: >Huh? Ehrenburg certainly publicly disavowed Zionism. How does
anyone know whether he disavowed it privately? That Ehrenburg never
hid his Jewish ancestry is, of course, common knowledge.

TOTH ANSWERS: THE CANADIAN JEWISH NEWS answers your question: 
	"In keeping with official Soviet policy, he publicly criticized Israel
and Zionism. The Canadian Jewish News further writes:
	'...the recent disclosure that Ehrenburg arranged to transfer his
private archives to Jerusalem's Yad Vashem library and archive, while
still alive, comes as a stunning revelation. The reason this
information has come to light only now is that Ehrenburg agreed to
transfer his archive on condition that the transfer, and his will,
remain secret for 20 years after his death. On Dec. 11th 1987, with
the 20-year period expired, Israel's daily MAARIV related Ehrenburg's
story...'"
	Then tell us, if he was so much anti-Israel, then  why the hell did he
arrange for the transfer of his private archives to Yad Vashem for
safekeeping?
	Then you dig into my religion, which is none of your business!

POWER WROTE<<<: I wonder if you're a Christian, Judith? If so, that's
your Holy Scripture you're quoting. I fully agree that parts of it are
vile, and the God portrayed in it is frequently vile, but then I'm an
>unbeliever. If you are a Christian, you must believe not that the
>Hebrews *wanted* to exterminate the indigenous population of Israel
>(which, in fact, they failed to do, much to the displeasure of their
>bloodthirsty God), but that they were *ordered* by the Almighty to
>do so.

TOTH ANSWERS:  I am whatever I am! I am certainly no judeo-christian!
My Church is not the  Jewish-Masonic  Vatican.  You don't have to
wonder anything about me, because the Old Testament - the Torah  - IS
NOT my religion and  since I am not one of the "chosen ones"  the
"God" that speaks to the children of Israel is naturally NOT my God
either. 
	Just like I do not consider the Torah to be "my holy scripture". I
simply refuse to believe that the BOOKS OF MOSES are the words  of
God! I am convinced  however, that they were written and re-written
the heaven only knows how many times to suit  political interests --
by sages who wanted to manipulate History. And they did a pretty good
job of it! They simply invented a "God" for themselves who gives
orders.... 
Judit Toth
----------------






From jtoth@infobahnos.com Mon Oct 14 20:03:38 PDT 1996
Article: 74248 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE RED RAPISTS  OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 04:20:59 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

KEREN:<<ridiculous) about anti-German crimes, while rejecting the
>reality of Nazi atrocities, which are far better documented
>than the anti-German atrocities?>>>
dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
[Keren's mumblings cut]
TOTH ANSWERS: <<< You can repeat you mumbo-jumbo until you are purple
in the face, hor all I care! YOU Historians are  stuck behind a very
thick vault guarding "the realities of Nazi atrocities." But let us
turn the question around. Would you be willing to accept anti-German
crimes if Gentiles would accept Nazi atrocities? Somehow I doubt it
very much. So don't talk to us about the  thickness and density of our
skulls for understanding your  tales "sufferings." Why should we
practice being compassionate when you keep spitting in our face every
occasion you can grab!????... 
Judit Toth
-----------------



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Mon Oct 14 22:46:50 PDT 1996
Article: 74264 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 04:46:57 GMT
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>Judith, I'm sorry, but consider your source. Yes, there was a text
>attributed to Ehrenburg which circulated among German troops talking
>about breaking German women's racial pride and taking them as booty.
>This text was disowned by Ehrenburg, and no one has succeeded in
>demonstrating that he ever said or wrote any such thing. (He did indeed
>write some pretty fanatical anti-German diatribes, but never advocated
>rape, in the above or any other words.)

>I'm surprised you didn't know that, since you've avoided quoting these
>particular words previously. Is it that you know they're of dubious
>provenance but were desperate enough to try to sneak them past us?

>(Reference: ILYA EHRENBURG: REVOLUTIONARY, NOVELIST, POET, WAR
>CORRESPONDENT, PROPAGANDIST: THE EXTRAORDINARY EPIC OF A RUSSIAN
>SURVIVOR, Anatol Goldberg, with Erik de Mauny, New York: Viking, 
>1984, p. 207-208.)
===================
TOTH ANSWERS: <<< I just realized, that it is a game of YOUR source of
quotations AGAINST MINE, is it not? You are pleased with a source that
litterally whitewahes Ilya Ehrenburg from all his wrong doings and I
will not accept it. I don't have to! I can deny it or refuse  if I
want to, .... because you deny everything on the other side of the
coin so why can't we do it also? That Ehrenburg  never advocated rape?
How do you know  that/ Because Anatol Goldberg wrote it so? On the
other hand you admit that he did write pretty fanatical anti-German
stuff....then why not rape also?
	I did not avoid quoting anything ,... I just found it afterwards when
doing research for something else than the sins of Ehrenburg.
	Ehrenburg or not,... RAPE, MURDER, ROBBERY by the "liberators" whom
the Jews, Gypsies, communists, socialists, marxists, partisans  were
all waiting for with open arms  did  plenty in Hungary and in Germany
in WW II and I have to warn you: you will not achieve anything by
denying it because some survivors are still alive who can talk.
	You people don't have to accept anything from the revisionists, but
don't be surprised if there is less and less sympathy going around for
what you are trying to sell....
	P.S. Did you ever hear about Jewish women complaining about the rape
of Soviet hordes? Just thought I ask...
Judit Toth
----------------




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 18 12:36:10 PDT 1996
Article: 75439 of alt.revisionism
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From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: THE RED RAPISTS  OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:46:17 GMT
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The censors of alt. revisionism deleted my posting. I wonder why? Was
it too hot to handle? On the other hand D. Keren and Charles L. Power
both posted article USING my original title. Good work, guys I guess
that's what you are paid for, right?...
So here it goes again!
THE RED RAPISTS  OF ILYA  EHRENBURG
	A few days ago on this alt.rev. discussion group D. Keren 
asked  me for "EVIDENCE" on th behaviour of the Red Army in Hungary
during WW II. The Jews of Hungary even today talk about "liberation
>from  Fascism" for which the are ever so grateful to the Red Army. On
the other hand how  the rest of the population is supposed to feel
about "their liberation"?  Here are a few quotations from books not
written by Hungarian authors, describing this "liberation" which at
the time probably gave a completely new meaning to the word. Let this
also be a memento to all those who fought for liberty to the very end,
to all the women, young girls and also men -- not only in Hungary, but
in Germany as well --  who suffered from the barbarism of  Ilya
Ehrenburgs' red rapists and murderers. He can be proud of his boys!
	One wonders if Ehrenburg  composed his pamphlets of instruction  from
the Torah?....
	CAPTURED TOWNS /Deuteronomy 20:10-20/ Jerusalem Bible, p.209.
"When you advance to the attack on any town, first offer it terms of
peace. If it accepts these and opens its gates to you, all the people
to be found in it shall do FORCED LABOR FOR YOU and be subject to you.
But if it refuses peace and offers resistance, you must lay SIEGE to
it. Yahweh your God shall deliver it into  your power and you are to
put  ALL ITS MENFOLK TO THE SWORD.  But the women, the children, the
livestock and all that the town contains, all its spoil, YOU  MAY TAKE
for yourselves as BOOTY.. You will devour the spoil of your enemies
which Yahweh YOU GOD  has delivered to you.
	That is how you will treat the far-distant towns not belonging to the
nations near you. But as regards the towns of those peoples which
Yahweh your God gives you as your own inheritance, YOU MUST NOT SPARE
THE LIFE OF ANY LIVING THING. Instead, you must lay them under ban,
the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites,
as Yahweh your God commanded, so that they may not teach you to
practice all the detestable practices they have in honor of their gods
and so cause you to sin against Yahweh your God.
	If, when attacking a town, you have to besiege it for a long time
before you capture it, you must not destroy its trees by taking an ax
to them: eat their fruit but do not cut them down. Is the tree in the
fields human that you should besiege it too? Any trees, however, which
you know are not fruit trees, you may mutilate and cut down and use to
build siege-works against the hostile town until it falls." ...
	                                             *
THE RED ARMY FOLLOWED THE WORD OF  THEIR "GOD"?	
	At the end of WW II. the Russian army pushed into Hungary,
plundering, torturing and raping as they went. Several thousand
patriotic Hungarians put up a last ditch fight against this advance.
Hawthorne Daniel, The Ordeal of the Captive Nations (Garden
City, Doubleday, 1958. Chapt.11.) wrote:
	"The United States' Ambassador to Hungary at this time,
described the Russian behaviour as "a period of calculated
destruction. The Russian method of occupation follows a certain
pattern necessitated by the difference between the East and West in
standards of living."
	
	John F. Montgomery, Hungary: The Unwilling Satellite (New
York, Devin-Adair, 1947/ pg.210.) "After a spearhead of disciplined
troops which destroys any remaning opposition, propaganda shock troops
arrive. Their job is to destroy all evidence of higher than Russian
standards of living in enemy territory, before the ordinary soldiers
appear upon the scene.
	
	A man for example, who eats at a table and sleeps on a bed is
considered to be a bourgeois. Boxes had to be substituted for tables
and straw for beds. In Hungary such a policy meant destruction of
workers' and peasants' homes as well as those of the wealthy
classes."
Mr. Montgomery has also included in his book (pages 239-245)
an account of the Russian occupation of Hungary as seen by
members of the Swiss legation and consulate in Budapest. The
Swiss report describes the wholesale rape of women from age ten to
seventy; the widespread looting  and  the theft of funds from banks
and legation safes, including those belonging to other nations than
Hungary.

	 Ferenc Nagy, former Prime Minister of Hungary just after the
war, provides further proof of the absolute depravity of the Russian
soldiers, men and women, who were unleashed upon Hungary: "I
was dumbfounded also by the thoroughness of the occupation. Mass
units of the Red Army were found not only in the cities and on the
lines of communications, but even on the smallest farms and in the
fields. The people were in constant dread. The women of the small
cities and the villages lived in hiding to escape assault.
The life of the peasants in the vineyard districts was sheer hell,
where Red soldiers found stores of wine. On could not speak of
humanity, honor, decency or the sanctity of the family to drunken
Soviet soldiers. 

	They raped half-grown girls and screaming
grandmothers, they robbed the peasants of their animals, they stole
the linen and in many places even the furniture. Tens of thousands
of women and children were carried off and inflicted with venereal
diseases by ruthless Red soldiers. Lack of doctors and medicine, and
the innate shyness of the country-folk, prevented treatment.
The barbarism of the Soviet occupying forces can best be
judged by the fact that many thousands of Hungarian men were
raped or forced to unnatural excesses by Russian women soldiers. (!)
	
	The Reds established a recreation camp near Kecskemet for
more than thirty thousand sick and convalescent women members of
teh Soviet army and police forces. From this camp, for instance, The
Russian women banded together at night and swooped down upon
the surrounding hamlets, kidnaping the men and sometimes holding
them captive for days. Often these abductions led to the peculiar
situation of women and girls hiding, not themselves, but their men in
the forests and in haystacks to keep them from the disease-ridden
Soviet women troops."(The Struggle Behind The Iron Curtain (New
York: Macmillan, 1948, page 63.) 
                                                                * * *
THE STRANGE LIFE OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Ilya Ehrenburg, the leading Soviet propagandist of the Second  World
War, was a contradictory figure.
	A recent article in the weekly Canadian Jewish News sheds new light on
the life of this "man of a thousand masks." /Rose Kleiner, "Archives
to throw new light on Ehrenburg," Canadian Jewish  News [Toronto], 17
March, 1988, p.9./
	Ehrenburg was born in 1891 in Kiev to a non-religious Jewish family.
In 1908 he fled Tsarist Russia because of his revolutionary
activities.
	Although he returned to visit after the Bolshevik revolution, he
continued to live abroad, including many years in Paris, and did not
settle  in the Soviet Union until 1941.
	A prolific writer, Ehrenburg was the author of almost 30 books. The
central figure of one novel, The Stormy Life of Lazik Roitschwantz, is
a pathetic "luftmensch," a recurring character in Jewish literature
who seems to live "from the air" without visible means of support.
	As a Jew and a dedicated Communist, Ehrenburg was a relentless enemy
of German National Socialism.  During the Second World War, he was a
leading member of the Soviet-sponsored Jewish  Anti-Fascist Committee.
	[At fund-raising rallies in the United States for the Soviet war
effort, two leading members of the Committee displayed bars of soap
allegedly manufactured by the Germans from the corpses of murdered
Jews.]
	Ehrenburg is perhaps most infamous for his viciously anti-German
wartime propaganda. 
	
	In the words of the Canadian Jewish News:
	 "As the leading Soviet journalist during World War II, Ehrenburg's
writings against the German invaders were circulated among millions of
Soviet soldiers." 
	His article appeared in Pravda, Izvestia, the Soviet military daily,
Krasnaya Zvezda ["Red Star"], and in numerous leaflets distributed to
troops at the front.
	In one leaflet headlined "Kill," Ehrenburg incited Soviet soldiers to
treat Germans as sub-human. The final paragraph concludes:
	"The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means
to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us
to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited.
We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you
have wasted that day... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet,
kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the
front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the
meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian
and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another - there
is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not
count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans
killed by you. Kill the German - that is your grandmother's request.
Kill the German - that is your child's prayer. Kill the German - that
is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through.
Kill." [Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Routledge & Kegan
Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp.65-66, 201; and, Erich Kern (ed.),
Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ-Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-62,
353-55.]

	Ehrenburg's incidentary writings certainly contributed in no small
measure to the orgy of murder and rape by Soviet soldiers against
German [...AND HUNGARIANS!!! -J Toth] civilians.
	Until his death in 1967, "his support  for the Soviet state, and for
Stalin, never wavered," the Canadian Jewish News notes. His loyalty
and service were acknowledged in 1952 when he received the Stalin
Prize.
	In keeping with official Soviet policy, he publicly criticized Israel
and Zionism. The Canadian Jewish News further writes:
	"...the recent disclosure that Ehrenburg arranged to transfer his
private archives to Jerusalem's Yad Vashem library and archive, while
still alive, comes as a stunning revelation. The reason this
information has come to light only now is that Ehrenburg agreed to
transfer his archive on condition that the transfer, and his will,
remain secret for 20 years after his death. On Dec. 11th 1987, with
the 20-year period expired, Israel's daily MAARIV related Ehrenburg's
story..."
	The collection includes material about the important wartime Jewish
partisan movement. Among  the documents in the collection is one
concerning a pogrom in Malakhovka, a village near Moscow, which took
place in 1959.
	This new revelation about one of the most influential figures of the
Stalinist regime shows that, whatever he may have said for public
consumption, Ehrenburg never privately disavowed Zionism or ever
forgot his ancestry.
			* 
[The above article about Ehrenburg was written by Mark Weber in The
Journal of Historical Review, Vol.VIII, #4 - Winter, 1988-89. p.507.]
---
Posting by Judit Toth
---




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 18 12:36:12 PDT 1996
Article: 75469 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE RED RAPISTS  OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:07:36 GMT
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Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5481ua$2vb@news1.total.net>
References: <53prio$h98@news1.total.net> <53roqq$bdc@is05.micron.net>  <53unqr$8sl@faith.total.net> 
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.121
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) writes:

># But let us turn the question around. Would you be willing
># to accept anti-German crimes if Gentiles would accept
># Nazi atrocities?

KEREN: <<Auschwitz if you'll give me 150,000 more in Dresden"?
What I'm saying is the obvious: the standards should
be the same.

TOTH: <<about? You think a poor little bunch of Nazi crazies
>represent all none-Jews? Sheesh.

TOTH: <<< I can see you on the defensive again, and that is nice. 
	This is NOT about "Nazi crazies", sir and you know it! This is about
EQUALITY for ALL advertised by the French Revolution ideas of 1789! It
is all about recognizing the sufferings of others than Jews!
Judit Toth
==========







From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 18 13:44:41 PDT 1996
Article: 75488 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: WHO DELETES ARTICLES ON alt.rev.?
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:52:51 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
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Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.166
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

The censors of alt. revisionism deleted my posting. I wonder why? Was
it too hot to handle? On the other hand D. Keren and Charles L. Power
both posted article USING my original title. Good work, guys I guess
that's what you are paid for, right?...
So here it goes again!

[archival note: she's lying. See article 75439, above. knm]

THE RED RAPISTS  OF ILYA  EHRENBURG
	A few days ago on this alt.rev. discussion group D. Keren 
asked  me for "EVIDENCE" on th behaviour of the Red Army in Hungary
during WW II. The Jews of Hungary even today talk about "liberation
>from  Fascism" for which the are ever so grateful to the Red Army. On
the other hand how  the rest of the population is supposed to feel
about "their liberation"?  Here are a few quotations from books not
written by Hungarian authors, describing this "liberation" which at
the time probably gave a completely new meaning to the word. Let this
also be a memento to all those who fought for liberty to the very end,
to all the women, young girls and also men -- not only in Hungary, but
in Germany as well --  who suffered from the barbarism of  Ilya
Ehrenburgs' red rapists and murderers. He can be proud of his boys!
	One wonders if Ehrenburg  composed his pamphlets of instruction  from
the Torah?....
	CAPTURED TOWNS /Deuteronomy 20:10-20/ Jerusalem Bible, p.209.
"When you advance to the attack on any town, first offer it terms of
peace. If it accepts these and opens its gates to you, all the people
to be found in it shall do FORCED LABOR FOR YOU and be subject to you.
But if it refuses peace and offers resistance, you must lay SIEGE to
it. Yahweh your God shall deliver it into  your power and you are to
put  ALL ITS MENFOLK TO THE SWORD.  But the women, the children, the
livestock and all that the town contains, all its spoil, YOU  MAY TAKE
for yourselves as BOOTY.. You will devour the spoil of your enemies
which Yahweh YOU GOD  has delivered to you.
	That is how you will treat the far-distant towns not belonging to the
nations near you. But as regards the towns of those peoples which
Yahweh your God gives you as your own inheritance, YOU MUST NOT SPARE
THE LIFE OF ANY LIVING THING. Instead, you must lay them under ban,
the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites,
as Yahweh your God commanded, so that they may not teach you to
practice all the detestable practices they have in honor of their gods
and so cause you to sin against Yahweh your God.
	If, when attacking a town, you have to besiege it for a long time
before you capture it, you must not destroy its trees by taking an ax
to them: eat their fruit but do not cut them down. Is the tree in the
fields human that you should besiege it too? Any trees, however, which
you know are not fruit trees, you may mutilate and cut down and use to
build siege-works against the hostile town until it falls." ...
	                                             *
THE RED ARMY FOLLOWED THE WORD OF  THEIR "GOD"?	
	At the end of WW II. the Russian army pushed into Hungary,
plundering, torturing and raping as they went. Several thousand
patriotic Hungarians put up a last ditch fight against this advance.
Hawthorne Daniel, The Ordeal of the Captive Nations (Garden
City, Doubleday, 1958. Chapt.11.) wrote:
	"The United States' Ambassador to Hungary at this time,
described the Russian behaviour as "a period of calculated
destruction. The Russian method of occupation follows a certain
pattern necessitated by the difference between the East and West in
standards of living."
	
	John F. Montgomery, Hungary: The Unwilling Satellite (New
York, Devin-Adair, 1947/ pg.210.) "After a spearhead of disciplined
troops which destroys any remaning opposition, propaganda shock troops
arrive. Their job is to destroy all evidence of higher than Russian
standards of living in enemy territory, before the ordinary soldiers
appear upon the scene.
	
	A man for example, who eats at a table and sleeps on a bed is
considered to be a bourgeois. Boxes had to be substituted for tables
and straw for beds. In Hungary such a policy meant destruction of
workers' and peasants' homes as well as those of the wealthy
classes."
Mr. Montgomery has also included in his book (pages 239-245)
an account of the Russian occupation of Hungary as seen by
members of the Swiss legation and consulate in Budapest. The
Swiss report describes the wholesale rape of women from age ten to
seventy; the widespread looting  and  the theft of funds from banks
and legation safes, including those belonging to other nations than
Hungary.

	 Ferenc Nagy, former Prime Minister of Hungary just after the
war, provides further proof of the absolute depravity of the Russian
soldiers, men and women, who were unleashed upon Hungary: "I
was dumbfounded also by the thoroughness of the occupation. Mass
units of the Red Army were found not only in the cities and on the
lines of communications, but even on the smallest farms and in the
fields. The people were in constant dread. The women of the small
cities and the villages lived in hiding to escape assault.
The life of the peasants in the vineyard districts was sheer hell,
where Red soldiers found stores of wine. On could not speak of
humanity, honor, decency or the sanctity of the family to drunken
Soviet soldiers. 

	They raped half-grown girls and screaming
grandmothers, they robbed the peasants of their animals, they stole
the linen and in many places even the furniture. Tens of thousands
of women and children were carried off and inflicted with venereal
diseases by ruthless Red soldiers. Lack of doctors and medicine, and
the innate shyness of the country-folk, prevented treatment.
The barbarism of the Soviet occupying forces can best be
judged by the fact that many thousands of Hungarian men were
raped or forced to unnatural excesses by Russian women soldiers. (!)
	
	The Reds established a recreation camp near Kecskemet for
more than thirty thousand sick and convalescent women members of
teh Soviet army and police forces. From this camp, for instance, The
Russian women banded together at night and swooped down upon
the surrounding hamlets, kidnaping the men and sometimes holding
them captive for days. Often these abductions led to the peculiar
situation of women and girls hiding, not themselves, but their men in
the forests and in haystacks to keep them from the disease-ridden
Soviet women troops."(The Struggle Behind The Iron Curtain (New
York: Macmillan, 1948, page 63.) 
                                                                * * *
THE STRANGE LIFE OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Ilya Ehrenburg, the leading Soviet propagandist of the Second  World
War, was a contradictory figure.
	A recent article in the weekly Canadian Jewish News sheds new light on
the life of this "man of a thousand masks." /Rose Kleiner, "Archives
to throw new light on Ehrenburg," Canadian Jewish  News [Toronto], 17
March, 1988, p.9./
	Ehrenburg was born in 1891 in Kiev to a non-religious Jewish family.
In 1908 he fled Tsarist Russia because of his revolutionary
activities.
	Although he returned to visit after the Bolshevik revolution, he
continued to live abroad, including many years in Paris, and did not
settle  in the Soviet Union until 1941.
	A prolific writer, Ehrenburg was the author of almost 30 books. The
central figure of one novel, The Stormy Life of Lazik Roitschwantz, is
a pathetic "luftmensch," a recurring character in Jewish literature
who seems to live "from the air" without visible means of support.
	As a Jew and a dedicated Communist, Ehrenburg was a relentless enemy
of German National Socialism.  During the Second World War, he was a
leading member of the Soviet-sponsored Jewish  Anti-Fascist Committee.
	[At fund-raising rallies in the United States for the Soviet war
effort, two leading members of the Committee displayed bars of soap
allegedly manufactured by the Germans from the corpses of murdered
Jews.]
	Ehrenburg is perhaps most infamous for his viciously anti-German
wartime propaganda. 
	
	In the words of the Canadian Jewish News:
	 "As the leading Soviet journalist during World War II, Ehrenburg's
writings against the German invaders were circulated among millions of
Soviet soldiers." 
	His article appeared in Pravda, Izvestia, the Soviet military daily,
Krasnaya Zvezda ["Red Star"], and in numerous leaflets distributed to
troops at the front.
	In one leaflet headlined "Kill," Ehrenburg incited Soviet soldiers to
treat Germans as sub-human. The final paragraph concludes:
	"The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means
to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us
to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited.
We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you
have wasted that day... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet,
kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the
front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the
meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian
and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another - there
is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not
count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans
killed by you. Kill the German - that is your grandmother's request.
Kill the German - that is your child's prayer. Kill the German - that
is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through.
Kill." [Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Routledge & Kegan
Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp.65-66, 201; and, Erich Kern (ed.),
Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ-Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-62,
353-55.]

	Ehrenburg's incidentary writings certainly contributed in no small
measure to the orgy of murder and rape by Soviet soldiers against
German [...AND HUNGARIANS!!! -J Toth] civilians.
	Until his death in 1967, "his support  for the Soviet state, and for
Stalin, never wavered," the Canadian Jewish News notes. His loyalty
and service were acknowledged in 1952 when he received the Stalin
Prize.
	In keeping with official Soviet policy, he publicly criticized Israel
and Zionism. The Canadian Jewish News further writes:
	"...the recent disclosure that Ehrenburg arranged to transfer his
private archives to Jerusalem's Yad Vashem library and archive, while
still alive, comes as a stunning revelation. The reason this
information has come to light only now is that Ehrenburg agreed to
transfer his archive on condition that the transfer, and his will,
remain secret for 20 years after his death. On Dec. 11th 1987, with
the 20-year period expired, Israel's daily MAARIV related Ehrenburg's
story..."
	The collection includes material about the important wartime Jewish
partisan movement. Among  the documents in the collection is one
concerning a pogrom in Malakhovka, a village near Moscow, which took
place in 1959.
	This new revelation about one of the most influential figures of the
Stalinist regime shows that, whatever he may have said for public
consumption, Ehrenburg never privately disavowed Zionism or ever
forgot his ancestry.
			* 
[The above article about Ehrenburg was written by Mark Weber in The
Journal of Historical Review, Vol.VIII, #4 - Winter, 1988-89. p.507.]
---
Posting by Judit Toth
---


From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 18 18:08:57 PDT 1996
Article: 75514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!demos!news.stealth.net!news.ibm.net.il!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHO DELETES ARTICLES ON alt.rev.?
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:20:46 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <5492bi$na2@news1.total.net>
References: <54883q$6c7@news1.total.net> <548qk5$dla@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.106
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <54883q$6c7@news1.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com wrote:

>>The censors of alt. revisionism deleted my posting. I wonder why? Was
>>it too hot to handle? On the other hand D. Keren and Charles L. Power
>>both posted article USING my original title. Good work, guys I guess
>>that's what you are paid for, right?...
>>So here it goes again!

>[second copy of ehrenburg article]

>1. noone deleted your article. Sorry about that, I know 
>   it screws up the desired image of you as a victim, but
>   that's life.
>2. both copies of your article are on my site, and on all
>   the others I checked.
>3. I will assume you are a newbie, and simply don't comprehend
>   how UseNet works... hey, you wouldn't lie to us, would you?
>   (You know, like you did when you suggested that B'nai
>   B'rith and the WJC represented all the JOOS in the world.....)

>naaaah.

>Posted and emailed, so the NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASTY JOOOOOOOOOOOOSH 
>CENSORS won't prevent the TrUtH FrOm BeinG DiSem'NatEd.
>ByPass Fees Paid to JAKE'S KOSHER CENSORS & DELI, customary
>bribes paid to UseNet CAbaL.

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
TOTH ANSWERS: <<< Ken, darling! What's a nice guy like you is doing in
a place like that?  And you ask me that B'nai B'rith and the WJC
represented all the JOOS in the world? What the hec, they sure act
that way don't they? You should know that, as all the JOOS know it
too, otherwise there would be JOOS coming to "my rescue",  but somehow
they don't seem to stand in line for it. 
	We all know who YOU represent byt pray tell us who are YOU represented
by...? 
Judit Toth
--------------




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:50 PDT 1996
Article: 75558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHO DELETES ARTICLES ON alt.rev.?
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:13:14 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <5495dt$pvr@news1.total.net>
References: <54883q$6c7@news1.total.net> <32680CA4.19EB@ccnis.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.106
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

"Annie Alpert, OFB"  wrote:

>Judith Toth wrote:
>> 
>> The censors of alt. revisionism deleted my posting. I wonder why? Was
>> it too hot to handle? On the other hand D. Keren and Charles L. Power
>> both posted article USING my original title. Good work, guys I guess
>> that's what you are paid for, right?...
>> So here it goes again!

>Don't flatter yourself, Jud.  No one deleted your post. Look on Deja Vu
>and you will see everything you ever posted.  Your news reader only
>shows you stuff you haven't read yet.  Once you read it you don't see it
>again unless you make a special effort.
==============
TOTH ANSWERS:<<< Nice try, honey! -- You say the  "news reader only
shows you stuff you haven't read yet.  Once you read it you don't see
it again unless you make a special effort." ???? Not on my Free Agent
program! How is it that I can read ALL postings going back to
September 19th, 1996? ALL OF IT! However I noticed some others are
missing also.  I posted my THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG [under a
separate heading, and not a "Follow up Article" days before Keren and
Power did.
Judit Toth
==============






From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sat Oct 19 10:43:51 PDT 1996
Article: 75560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THE LOST AND "FOUND" POSTING?
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:57:10 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 215
Message-ID: <5494ft$p5c@news1.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.106
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Ken McVey wrote:<<<
1. noone deleted your article. Sorry about that, I know 
   it screws up the desired image of you as a victim, but
   that's life.
2. both copies of your article are on my site, and on all
   the others I checked.>>>
TOTH:<<< Look again!  -- There are two articles on alt.rev. by this
same title "THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG". One is under the name
of Daniel Keren [dated 13/10/96 05:39] and the other Charles L. Power
[13/10/96 05:45]
THE LOST AND "FOUND" POSTINGS?
I maybe new to you club, but am no fool! This was my original title
which I used but D. Keren and C.L. Power decided to use the same title
and my article somehow disappeared from the face of teh earth. -- I
would like to know the fate of  this article below "THE RED RAPISTS OF
ILYA EHRENBURG" was a separate heading used by me ... it was my title,
I invented it... not D. Keren's nor C.L.Power's and it must be out
there somewhere... Did someone changed the heading of my article?
---
THE RED RAPISTS  OF ILYA  EHRENBURG
	A few days ago on this alt.rev. discussion group D. Keren 
asked  me for "EVIDENCE" on the  behaviour of the Red Army in Hungary
during WW II. The Jews of Hungary even today talk about "liberation
>from  Fascism" for which the are ever so grateful to the Red Army. On
the other hand how  the rest of the population is supposed to feel
about "their liberation"?  Here are a few quotations from books not
written by Hungarian authors, describing this "liberation" which at
the time probably gave a completely new meaning to the word. Let this
also be a memento to all those who fought for liberty to the very end,
to all the women, young girls and also men -- not only in Hungary, but
in Germany as well --  who suffered from the barbarism of  Ilya
Ehrenburgs' red rapists and murderers. He can be proud of his boys!
	One wonders if Ehrenburg  composed his pamphlets of instruction  from
the Torah?....
	CAPTURED TOWNS /Deuteronomy 20:10-20/ Jerusalem Bible, p.209.
"When you advance to the attack on any town, first offer it terms of
peace. If it accepts these and opens its gates to you, all the people
to be found in it shall do FORCED LABOR FOR YOU and be subject to you.
But if it refuses peace and offers resistance, you must lay SIEGE to
it. Yahweh your God shall deliver it into  your power and you are to
put  ALL ITS MENFOLK TO THE SWORD.  But the women, the children, the
livestock and all that the town contains, all its spoil, YOU  MAY TAKE
for yourselves as BOOTY.. You will devour the spoil of your enemies
which Yahweh YOU GOD  has delivered to you.
	That is how you will treat the far-distant towns not belonging to the
nations near you. But as regards the towns of those peoples which
Yahweh your God gives you as your own inheritance, YOU MUST NOT SPARE
THE LIFE OF ANY LIVING THING. Instead, you must lay them under ban,
the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites,
as Yahweh your God commanded, so that they may not teach you to
practice all the detestable practices they have in honor of their gods
and so cause you to sin against Yahweh your God.
	If, when attacking a town, you have to besiege it for a long time
before you capture it, you must not destroy its trees by taking an ax
to them: eat their fruit but do not cut them down. Is the tree in the
fields human that you should besiege it too? Any trees, however, which
you know are not fruit trees, you may mutilate and cut down and use to
build siege-works against the hostile town until it falls." ...
	                                             *
THE RED ARMY FOLLOWED THE WORD OF  THEIR "GOD"?	
	At the end of WW II. the Russian army pushed into Hungary,
plundering, torturing and raping as they went. Several thousand
patriotic Hungarians put up a last ditch fight against this advance.
Hawthorne Daniel, The Ordeal of the Captive Nations (Garden
City, Doubleday, 1958. Chapt.11.) wrote:
	"The United States' Ambassador to Hungary at this time,
described the Russian behaviour as "a period of calculated
destruction. The Russian method of occupation follows a certain
pattern necessitated by the difference between the East and West in
standards of living."
	
	John F. Montgomery, Hungary: The Unwilling Satellite (New
York, Devin-Adair, 1947/ pg.210.) "After a spearhead of disciplined
troops which destroys any remaning opposition, propaganda shock troops
arrive. Their job is to destroy all evidence of higher than Russian
standards of living in enemy territory, before the ordinary soldiers
appear upon the scene.
	
	A man for example, who eats at a table and sleeps on a bed is
considered to be a bourgeois. Boxes had to be substituted for tables
and straw for beds. In Hungary such a policy meant destruction of
workers' and peasants' homes as well as those of the wealthy
classes."
Mr. Montgomery has also included in his book (pages 239-245)
an account of the Russian occupation of Hungary as seen by
members of the Swiss legation and consulate in Budapest. The
Swiss report describes the wholesale rape of women from age ten to
seventy; the widespread looting  and  the theft of funds from banks
and legation safes, including those belonging to other nations than
Hungary.

	 Ferenc Nagy, former Prime Minister of Hungary just after the
war, provides further proof of the absolute depravity of the Russian
soldiers, men and women, who were unleashed upon Hungary: "I
was dumbfounded also by the thoroughness of the occupation. Mass
units of the Red Army were found not only in the cities and on the
lines of communications, but even on the smallest farms and in the
fields. The people were in constant dread. The women of the small
cities and the villages lived in hiding to escape assault.
The life of the peasants in the vineyard districts was sheer hell,
where Red soldiers found stores of wine. On could not speak of
humanity, honor, decency or the sanctity of the family to drunken
Soviet soldiers. 

	They raped half-grown girls and screaming
grandmothers, they robbed the peasants of their animals, they stole
the linen and in many places even the furniture. Tens of thousands
of women and children were carried off and inflicted with venereal
diseases by ruthless Red soldiers. Lack of doctors and medicine, and
the innate shyness of the country-folk, prevented treatment.
The barbarism of the Soviet occupying forces can best be
judged by the fact that many thousands of Hungarian men were
raped or forced to unnatural excesses by Russian women soldiers. (!)
	
	The Reds established a recreation camp near Kecskemet for
more than thirty thousand sick and convalescent women members of
teh Soviet army and police forces. From this camp, for instance, The
Russian women banded together at night and swooped down upon
the surrounding hamlets, kidnaping the men and sometimes holding
them captive for days. Often these abductions led to the peculiar
situation of women and girls hiding, not themselves, but their men in
the forests and in haystacks to keep them from the disease-ridden
Soviet women troops."(The Struggle Behind The Iron Curtain (New
York: Macmillan, 1948, page 63.) 
                                                                * * *
THE STRANGE LIFE OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Ilya Ehrenburg, the leading Soviet propagandist of the Second  World
War, was a contradictory figure.
	A recent article in the weekly Canadian Jewish News sheds new light on
the life of this "man of a thousand masks." /Rose Kleiner, "Archives
to throw new light on Ehrenburg," Canadian Jewish  News [Toronto], 17
March, 1988, p.9./
	Ehrenburg was born in 1891 in Kiev to a non-religious Jewish family.
In 1908 he fled Tsarist Russia because of his revolutionary
activities.
	Although he returned to visit after the Bolshevik revolution, he
continued to live abroad, including many years in Paris, and did not
settle  in the Soviet Union until 1941.
	A prolific writer, Ehrenburg was the author of almost 30 books. The
central figure of one novel, The Stormy Life of Lazik Roitschwantz, is
a pathetic "luftmensch," a recurring character in Jewish literature
who seems to live "from the air" without visible means of support.
	As a Jew and a dedicated Communist, Ehrenburg was a relentless enemy
of German National Socialism.  During the Second World War, he was a
leading member of the Soviet-sponsored Jewish  Anti-Fascist Committee.
	[At fund-raising rallies in the United States for the Soviet war
effort, two leading members of the Committee displayed bars of soap
allegedly manufactured by the Germans from the corpses of murdered
Jews.]
	Ehrenburg is perhaps most infamous for his viciously anti-German
wartime propaganda. 
	
	In the words of the Canadian Jewish News:
	 "As the leading Soviet journalist during World War II, Ehrenburg's
writings against the German invaders were circulated among millions of
Soviet soldiers." 
	His article appeared in Pravda, Izvestia, the Soviet military daily,
Krasnaya Zvezda ["Red Star"], and in numerous leaflets distributed to
troops at the front.
	In one leaflet headlined "Kill," Ehrenburg incited Soviet soldiers to
treat Germans as sub-human. The final paragraph concludes:
	"The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means
to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us
to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited.
We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you
have wasted that day... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet,
kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the
front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the
meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian
and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another - there
is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not
count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans
killed by you. Kill the German - that is your grandmother's request.
Kill the German - that is your child's prayer. Kill the German - that
is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through.
Kill." [Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Routledge & Kegan
Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp.65-66, 201; and, Erich Kern (ed.),
Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ-Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-62,
353-55.]

	Ehrenburg's incidentary writings certainly contributed in no small
measure to the orgy of murder and rape by Soviet soldiers against
German [...AND HUNGARIANS!!! -J Toth] civilians.
	Until his death in 1967, "his support  for the Soviet state, and for
Stalin, never wavered," the Canadian Jewish News notes. His loyalty
and service were acknowledged in 1952 when he received the Stalin
Prize.
	In keeping with official Soviet policy, he publicly criticized Israel
and Zionism. The Canadian Jewish News further writes:
	"...the recent disclosure that Ehrenburg arranged to transfer his
private archives to Jerusalem's Yad Vashem library and archive, while
still alive, comes as a stunning revelation. The reason this
information has come to light only now is that Ehrenburg agreed to
transfer his archive on condition that the transfer, and his will,
remain secret for 20 years after his death. On Dec. 11th 1987, with
the 20-year period expired, Israel's daily MAARIV related Ehrenburg's
story..."
	The collection includes material about the important wartime Jewish
partisan movement. Among  the documents in the collection is one
concerning a pogrom in Malakhovka, a village near Moscow, which took
place in 1959.
	This new revelation about one of the most influential figures of the
Stalinist regime shows that, whatever he may have said for public
consumption, Ehrenburg never privately disavowed Zionism or ever
forgot his ancestry.
			* 
[The above article about Ehrenburg was written by Mark Weber in The
Journal of Historical Review, Vol.VIII, #4 - Winter, 1988-89. p.507.]
---
Posting by Judit Toth
---






From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 09:43:37 PDT 1996
Article: 75786 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MESSAGE TO MCVAY
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:50:18 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <54c30e$a6@news1.total.net>
References: <54bc4u$eqe@news1.total.net> <54bgfg$j9e@is05.micron.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.128
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) wrote:

>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>>>In article <5495dt$pvr@news1.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com wrote:

>>>>it again unless you make a special effort." ???? Not on my Free Agent
>>>>program! How is it that I can read ALL postings going back to
>>>>September 19th, 1996? ALL OF IT! However I noticed some others are
>>>>missing also.  I posted my THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG [under a
>>>>separate heading, and not a "Follow up Article" days before Keren and
>>>>Power did.

>>>...which proves nothing, of course, except that you can't find
>>>it. I can - there are now three copies of your copious text
>>>archived here - in two places. It would take all of 10-15
>>>seconds to find them all with Nizkor's search engine.

>>>I think you are Moran's sister.
>>------------------------------------------------
>>TOTH ANSWERS  MR...... MCVAY:<<< No, I am not related to Mr. Moran,
>>and are you related to  Leo Bronstein-Trotzky?
>>	So far I have at least SIX of my articles deleted from alt.rev. Of
>>course I cannot watch for everybody else's postings but I noticed that
>>a lot of others ARE  missing also, ones I have seen there before.
>>	I bet my postings are on the archives of NIZKOR, silly where else
>>would they be? You want me to be surprised on this? [Schwartz has no
>>use for them in their smoke meat sandwiches!] That's what the secret
>>police is doing in Eastern Europe too:  RECORD EVERY "EVIDENCE"
>>possible against the "enemy of the peoples' democracy"! Just because
>>NIZKOR's archives have all of my postings that doesn't mean NEWSNET
>>has them for everyone else to see also
>>Judit Toth
>>Ocotber 19/96
>>----------------------.

>Remember the Jewish motto:   "Never forget, Never forgive!"   The first thing Jews did
>when they set up Soviet Communism is make "anti-Semitism" a crime punishable by death.
>Nizkor is archiving the posts of future "thoughtcriminals" which will come in handy for
>future use as threats and terrorism in one form or another when Amerika also outlaws
>Holocaust doubt.

>But it will all be for our own good though, of course.  Wouldn't want people to be
>thinking and speaking the "wrong" thoughts, now.  What would we do without the benevolent
>Self-Chosen looking over us!  Kind of brings a tear of gratitude to my eye. (sniff)

>Maybe revisionists today should sign all their posts with "just kidding" as a hedge
>against future criminal indictment?

>Kurt Stele
-----------------------
Well said, Kurt!
TJ
---------------------





From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 09:43:38 PDT 1996
Article: 75787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHO DELETES ARTICLES ON alt.rev.?
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:18:01 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <54bc0u$ej5@news1.total.net>
References: <54883q$6c7@news1.total.net> <32680CA4.19EB@ccnis.net> <5495dt$pvr@news1.total.net> 
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.174
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:



>On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Judith Toth wrote:

>> "Annie Alpert, OFB"  wrote:
>> 
>> >Judith Toth wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> The censors of alt. revisionism deleted my posting. I wonder why? Was
>> >> it too hot to handle? On the other hand D. Keren and Charles L. Power
>> >> both posted article USING my original title. Good work, guys I guess
>> >> that's what you are paid for, right?...
>> >> So here it goes again!
>> 
>> >Don't flatter yourself, Jud.  No one deleted your post. Look on Deja Vu
>> >and you will see everything you ever posted.  Your news reader only
>> >shows you stuff you haven't read yet.  Once you read it you don't see it
>> >again unless you make a special effort.
>> ==============
>> TOTH ANSWERS:<<< Nice try, honey! -- You say the  "news reader only
>> shows you stuff you haven't read yet.  Once you read it you don't see
>> it again unless you make a special effort." ???? Not on my Free Agent
>> program! How is it that I can read ALL postings going back to
>> September 19th, 1996? ALL OF IT! However I noticed some others are
>> missing also.  I posted my THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG [under a
>> separate heading, and not a "Follow up Article" days before Keren and
>> Power did.
>> Judit Toth
>> ==============
>> 

>Annie tried to come up with a likely explanation for the problem you seem
>to be having, but apparently she did not guess right.

>The bottom line is this:  no one has the ability to go back and erase
>your postings on usenet unless they have access to all the servers that
>have carried your postings (that could be thousands.)  Why anyone would
>want to do this is questionable, because in addition to the servers,
>anyone who downloaded a copy of your posting would have record of it.

>Usenet exists on the internet, it is an anarchy of computers and servers
>that are beyond the reach of censores, no matter how powerful.

>A likely reason you feel you are being censored:

>People are responding to your messages without including the original text
>in the response.  This may seem unfair to you, but it is a common and
>accepted practice on usenet, especially when the original text is a
>lengthy article such as your article, THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG.  

>The fair assumption is that anyone following the thread has read the
>original article and it does not need to be repeated with every reposting,  
>thereby crowding bandwidth (this means that your long article uses a
>lot of the available space on servers, transmitting time, etc... not to
>mention the time to download and read for endusers.)

>If you want your article to be reposted frequently you're going to have to
>do it yourself, but just because others are not willing to repost it for
>you does not constitute censorship.

>All newbies take a while to learn the tricks, so don't feel bad.  Just
>don't be so quick to accuse others until you know what's really going on.


>-ODB
================
Oct.19/96
TOTH ANSWERS:<<< It seems to me that everyone tries tocome up with an
explanation.  I am sorry, also nice try from you  but your answer is
simply  unsafisfactory! I checked my postings and not one, but SIX  of
my postings are missing,... and not all of them were too long either.

	Who is/are  behind the controls I cannot tell, -- but according to you
"no one has the ability to go back and erase your postings on usenet
unless they have access to all the servers" --  and only  you would
know that who have access to all servers. However one thing you can be
sure of: you really sensitized me - and many of us out here -  about
the goings on at alt.rev.
Judit Toth
-------------------------




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 09:43:39 PDT 1996
Article: 75788 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MESSAGE TO MCVAY
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:20:10 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <54bc4u$eqe@news1.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.174
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <5495dt$pvr@news1.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com wrote:

>>it again unless you make a special effort." ???? Not on my Free Agent
>>program! How is it that I can read ALL postings going back to
>>September 19th, 1996? ALL OF IT! However I noticed some others are
>>missing also.  I posted my THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG [under a
>>separate heading, and not a "Follow up Article" days before Keren and
>>Power did.

>...which proves nothing, of course, except that you can't find
>it. I can - there are now three copies of your copious text
>archived here - in two places. It would take all of 10-15
>seconds to find them all with Nizkor's search engine.

>I think you are Moran's sister.
------------------------------------------------
TOTH ANSWERS  MR...... MCVAY:<<< No, I am not related to Mr. Moran,
and are you related to  Leo Bronstein-Trotzky?
	So far I have at least SIX of my articles deleted from alt.rev. Of
course I cannot watch for everybody else's postings but I noticed that
a lot of others ARE  missing also, ones I have seen there before.
	I bet my postings are on the archives of NIZKOR, silly where else
would they be? You want me to be surprised on this? [Schwartz has no
use for them in their smoke meat sandwiches!] That's what the secret
police is doing in Eastern Europe too:  RECORD EVERY "EVIDENCE"
possible against the "enemy of the peoples' democracy"! Just because
NIZKOR's archives have all of my postings that doesn't mean NEWSNET
has them for everyone else to see also
Judit Toth
Ocotber 19/96
----------------------.



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 09:43:40 PDT 1996
Article: 75790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE LOST AND "FOUND" POSTING?
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:21:00 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <54bc6g$eqe@news1.total.net>
References: <5494ft$p5c@news1.total.net> <54b5fl$q34@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.174
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <5494ft$p5c@news1.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com wrote:
>>Ken McVey wrote:<<<

>First error. It's McVay. 

>>1. noone deleted your article. Sorry about that, I know 
>>   it screws up the desired image of you as a victim, but
>>   that's life.
>>2. both copies of your article are on my site, and on all
>>   the others I checked.>>>

>>TOTH:<<< Look again!  -- There are two articles on alt.rev. by this
>>same title "THE RED RAPISTS OF ILYA EHRENBURG". One is under the name
>>of Daniel Keren [dated 13/10/96 05:39] and the other Charles L. Power
>>[13/10/96 05:45]

>>THE LOST AND "FOUND" POSTINGS?
>>I maybe new to you club, but am no fool! This was my original title
>>which I used but D. Keren and C.L. Power decided to use the same title
>>and my article somehow disappeared from the face of teh earth. -- I
>>would like to know the fate of  this article below "THE RED RAPISTS OF
>>ILYA EHRENBURG" was a separate heading used by me ... it was my title,
>>I invented it... not D. Keren's nor C.L.Power's and it must be out
>>there somewhere... Did someone changed the heading of my article?

>Second error. Anyone replying to another article will, by
>default, be given the same title. If their's is the first
>reply, "re:" will be prepended to the original subject. That
>you neither know nor understand this means you are a newbie;
>that you conjure dark forces who must delete your "truths"
>suggests you're an paranoid.

>Third error. You assume that your inability to find something
>means it not only does not exist, but that some dark and
>mysterious entity zapped it.  See paranoid, above. I withdraw
>my suggestion that you go to Swartz's.

>Fourth error: Your article was not deleted. The Subject: field
>was not changed. Please readjust your collander.

>Fifth error: In view of the above, and your silly assertion
>that B'nai Brith and the World Jewish Congress speak for every
>Jew in the world, it is clear that you _are_ a fool.

>Your articles (all three of them) are archived on a minimum of
>eight computers, including Altavista and DejaNews and five
>Nizkor servers. Anyone searching for EHRENBURG will find them
>all.  Some deep and dark conspiracy :-) 

>http://search.nizkor.org/search.html

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/
===============
McVAY:,,,<<< your silly assertion
that B'nai Brith and the World Jewish Congress speak for every
Jew in the world, it is clear that you _are_ a fool.>>>
TOTH ANSWERS: <<< 
Thanks for the gentlemanly kind words! Shall I reciprocate my feelings
toward you? There is no need for namecalling, but then again darling
it's not your fault that you suffer from LIBELITIS! 
Indeed, you've really made my day by letting me know that my postings
are all over town - from NIZKOR to the Easter Townships! I makes my
heart warm all over to know that NIZKOR boys appreciate me so much.
	I never said that BB and WJC "speaks" for every Jew.....[Professor
Lilienthal would be really protesting!]  you are the one who insists
on this! I wrote about "representing" the Jews not "speaking" for
them. 
	OK, let's say that BB and WJC do not -- using your expression --
"speak" for every Jew in the world. Then  (1) whom do they speak for ?
(2) Who speaks for the Jews who are  left out in the cold?
Judit Toth
October 19/96
-------------------




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 09:43:40 PDT 1996
Article: 75791 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHO DELETES ARTICLES ON alt.rev.?
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:47:40 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <54c2rf$a6@news1.total.net>
References: <54883q$6c7@news1.total.net> <32680CA4.19EB@ccnis.net> <5495dt$pvr@news1.total.net> <32696732.3232610@news.awinc.com>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.128
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:13:14 GMT, jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) wrote:


>>TOTH ANSWERS:<<< Nice try, honey! -- You say the  "news reader only
>>shows you stuff you haven't read yet.  Once you read it you don't see
>>it again unless you make a special effort." ???? Not on my Free Agent
>>program!

>KEN LEWIS WROTE:<<wasting the bandwidth here and making an utter fool of yourself.

>It would seem that the only one who hasn't seen your article is you. God
>knows the rest of us have. Again and again and again.

>There are no censors at work here. There appear to be a few paranoids
>posting, however.

>Sorry to shatter your delusional paranoia but you might try pointing your
>WEB browser at http://www.dejanews.com and doing a search on youself.

>Please be sure to come back and apologize when you see that you are wrong.>>>>
--------------
TOTH ANSWERS:<<<  I HAVE SEEN all my articles before and I know how to
use Free Agent also! What we are missing here are two things: (1)
politness on you side, (2) and trust in  you people from our side. It
just won't happen........ ever....
Judit Toth
--------------------





From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 09:43:41 PDT 1996
Article: 75793 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THANKS FOR THE  REVISIONIST SUPPORT!
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 06:26:28 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <54c548$2ab@news1.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.78
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

DEAR READERS:<<< There is no school in the whole wide world that would
teach  what I learned  here on alt.rev. in the past few weeks. Indeed,
without even actually meeting any of you, I learned a lot about human
beings. Beings who call themselves "the real humans of this planet"
and the beings who are humans but not considered  as such by the
"real ones". This, they certainly  let us know  by their special ways.
I could actually hear screeming  voices from behind the words, 
	I could sense perfidy and hatred, and sadly I could feel  honesty
being repressed by lies.  From time to time it is suffocating if not
excrutiating  to exchange words  here with self-centered people of
dubious intentions who have no idea what goes on in the rest of the
world. For them my message is: THE TRUTH IS ON OUR SIDE AND NOTHING
SHALL STAY UNDER THE RUG FOR EVER!
	Because of my deleted postings I' ve been given a few lectures by
people in the know ... granted some were curteous and others simply
very rude.  But I guess this is  the NEW WORLD ORDER,... "the open
society" as Mr. George Soros calls it.
	Since every cloud has a silver lining, the one thing that came out of
all this is, it certainly made everyone sentisized to a very real
problem. [Apparently I am not THE ONLY ONE on alt.rev. experiencing
the disappearing scenes of my postings.] We shall be vigilants from
now on! You have not seen the last of me yet!
	At last but not least, I would like to say special thank you to all
the revisionist friends who took the time to send me supporting
E-mails. Thanks guys, you really  made my day!... 
Judit Toth
October 19/96
--------------------
	



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 09:43:42 PDT 1996
Article: 75848 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!info.usuhs.mil!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHO DELETES ARTICLES ON alt.rev.?
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:42:04 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <54c2gv$3m@news1.total.net>
References: <54883q$6c7@news1.total.net> <32680CA4.19EB@ccnis.net> <5495dt$pvr@news1.total.net>  <54bc0u$ej5@news1.total.net> 
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.128
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

karlpov@access4.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>Judith, you amaze me with your incredible stupidity. If you
>can't find your own articles on your server, the folks you
>need to bitch to are your ISP, Infobahn Online Services. Call
>up their help line and try real hard to pretend you're not
>completely nuts, and they will explain what's happening. We'd
>all appreciate it if you'd stop re-posting the same lengthy 
>crap over and over again, even though I must admit that it's
>somewhat less obnoxious a habit than Giwer's multiple forgeries
>(which take a slightly greater knowledge of what's going on
>than you obviously possess).
-----------------------------------
TOTH ANSWERS: <<< Dear Charles! You are amazing how you permit
yourself to speak to a woman the way you do. I do reciprocate the
adjectives, Lord know you deserve it, but I refuse to get down to your
level of culture. This kind of speech wouldn't be permissible even if
you and I guarded hogs or cattle in some field. 
Judit Toth
-------------------




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 12:50:28 PDT 1996
Article: 75938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bleeble bleeble... the Toth Zone...
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:58:24 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <54asq4$4ma@news1.total.net>
References: <54883q$6c7@news1.total.net> <548qk5$dla@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <5492bi$na2@news1.total.net> <549a2o$gn8@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.178
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <5492bi$na2@news1.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com wrote:

>>a place like that?  And you ask me that B'nai B'rith and the WJC
>>represented all the JOOS in the world? What the hec, they sure act
>>that way don't they? You should know that, as all the JOOS know it
>>too, otherwise there would be JOOS coming to "my rescue",  but somehow
>>they don't seem to stand in line for it. 

>Gee, no, "they" don't act that way. I guess I've not had
>enough experience yet, having spoken to several national
>conventions held by Jewish groups (including B'nai Brith)..
>sonofagun, they just don't act like they represent all of the
>world's Jews... please readjust your collander, Ms. Toth -
>your mind isn't working correctly, judging from your abnormal
>and patently stupid comments about Jewish organizations.

>Why would anyone rescue you, Ms. Toth? Are you lost? (How can
>anyone get lost in Montreal? Just take a cab to Swartz' deli,
>and ask directions....
===============
October 19/96
TOTH ANSERS: <<:
NIZKOR's collander has very large holes in it!!!...
	As for Schwartz's deli-foods?  My ancestors never ate kosher food so
why should I be eating it now?...
SHALOM to you too, dear!...
Judit Toth
==============



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Sun Oct 20 23:37:09 PDT 1996
Article: 76027 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Infobahnos.com user needs your help!
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:12:06 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <54es5r$69m@news1.total.net>
References: <54883q$6c7@news1.total.net> <5495dt$pvr@news1.total.net>  <54bc0u$ej5@news1.total.net> <54do58$b6q@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.147
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>To the support desk, infobahnos.com:

>In article <54bc0u$ej5@news1.total.net> and others, your
>client, jtoth@infobahnos.com wrote:

> "The censors of alt. revisionism deleted my posting. I wonder why? "

>and...

>"I checked my postings and not one, but SIX  of my postings are 
>missing,... and not all of them were too long either."

>"Who is/are  behind the controls I cannot tell, -- but according to you
>`no one has the ability to go back and erase your postings on usenet
>unless they have access to all the servers' --  and only  you would
>know that who have access to all servers. However one thing you can be
>sure of: you really sensitized me - and many of us out here -  about
>the goings on at alt.rev."

>Your client appears confused with regard to UseNet news
>transports and related processing, and I thought perhaps you
>should contact her with a view towards education.

>She appears to believe that some mysterious entity has
>targeted her (rather lame, for this newsgroup) postings for
>deletion, when, in fact, they are archived on DejaNews and
>AltaVista, not to mention other public archive sites.

>I wouldn't normally contact an ISP about this sort of
>triviality, but your client is casting your firm in a rather
>bad light, and, for that reason, I thought I would bring her
>ignorance to your attention, in the hope you could ease her
>paranoia, and thus bring her unwarrented attacks upon your
>company to an end.

>Sincerely yours,
>Ken McVay

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>International Military Tribunal:   http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/
==========
TOTH ANSWERS: <<< It seems that when the Lord was distributing
paranoia Mr. McVay returned at least twice for handouts. 
	 McVay  tells us: he wouldn't contact an ISP about this sort of thing
but  did it  anyway.  He  just couldn't resist  such golden occasion!
- he thought.  Eventhough I never accused anyone or any company by
name for deleting my articles!  My simple little question caused more
uproar than any Holocaust-denial! WHY? Did I step on some sensitive
toes?
	I just fail to see how I am casting "bad light" on my server with
asking a simple question. Explain please!!! "Unwarranted attacks upon
the  company " [that is my server]? How? What does my server have to
do with all this? 
	I simply asked a question: "Who deletes my postings?" - but the
reaction to this was literally breath-taking. 
	(1) WHY the overwhelming reaction from  NIZKOR & CO?
	(2)  Is ALT.REV. actually owned by NIZKOR?
	 I would like a quick answer to this one!... from NIZKOR.
Judit Toth
==========




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Mon Oct 21 07:02:14 PDT 1996
Article: 76130 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MESSAGE TO MCVAY
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:05:43 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <54freb$kdo@news1.total.net>
References: <54bc4u$eqe@news1.total.net> 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.164
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

>In article <54bc4u$eqe@news1.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com wrote:

>[paranoid rantings about deleted posts snipped]
> 
>Hey, Judith, how come you never answered any of MY questions to YOU?
> 
>Afraid?
> 
>Sara

>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler
-------------------------
ANSWER:<<< I idin't think your questions were worth answering to,
honey. Afraid? Of whom? Your friends with bulldozer tactics? I don't
think so....They are all little sambutlers.
	 However, it is most interesting that  YOUR ideal person -- otherwise
you wouldn't quote him -- should be Sam Butler who "hates inaccuracy"
but at the same time  is a self-confessed liar. Therefore, if he does
not mind lying he must be committing oodles of  inaccuracies here and
there, is he not? Why the hypocrisy?
	As for little old me: I passionately hate liars and all those who
indulge in doing  inaccuracies... for one reason or another. 
Judit Toth
---------------





From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 25 09:01:00 PDT 1996
Article: 76771 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:16:46 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <54lfcl$31m$1@news3.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.197
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
	By the end of President Eisenhower's first term, concern about
communism was almost non-existent. Aroused by American
campaign oratory and Voice of America broadcasts about "rolling
back the Iron Curtain" and "freeing the captive peoples," the
Hungarians revolted and drove out their Russian captors.
	During their five days of freedom, [the Freedom Fighters] appealed
in vain for help. U.S. diplomatic recognition was requested. It was
never given. The U.S. announced that it "couldn't get involved."
The Hungarian affair was referred to the United Nations. Americans
sat up through the nights in early November 1956 listening to the
stirring oratory of Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge in the UN. They
didn't know that it had no real meaning.
	When President Eisenhower sent the Hungarian affair to the United
Nations, he was, in effect, telling the Soviet Union to do as it
pleased. [And it did just that!] The communists had the veto in the
UN Security Council and could stop any action. Finally, on
November 4, 1956, the Hungarian Freedom Fighter Radio Station
broadcast these last words:
	"People of the world, listen to our call. Help us not with words, but
with actions, with soldiers and arms. Please do not forget that this
wild attack of Bolshevism will not stop. You may be the next victim.
Save us... Our ship is sinking. The light vanishes. The shadows grow
darker from hour to hour. Listen to our cry. Start moving. Extend to
us your brotherly hands... God be with you and us."
	The Hungarian  Freedom Fighters conducted their rooftop vigils in
vain, watching and waiting for American planes... which never
came. Most Americans didn't understand what it meant when the United
States referred the Hungarian affair to the UN. Is it possible that
President Eisenhower and his State Department didn't know what
they were doing? They did know. They meant for the Hungarian
revolt to fail. After four years of silence, Congressman Michael
Feighan (D-Ohio) released the text of a State Department cablegram
to Tito, the communist dictator of Yugoslavia. Dispatched on
November 2, 1956. the telegram to Tito read:
	"The Government of the United States does not look with favor
upon governments unfriendly to the Soviet Union on the borders of
the Soviet union." [Congressional Record, Aug.31. 1960 /p.226./]
It was no accident, Congressman Feighan charged, that just 36 hours
later Soviet tanks re-invaded Hungary. The Kremlin butchered
Budapest, secure in the knowledge that America would not oppose
them. The U.S. State Department had given its approval!
Would aid to Hungary have provoked war? It is unlikely.
	Khrushchev and the Kremlin had one overriding fear, the
simultaneous revolt of the enslaved peoples. In November 1956, the
satellites were restless. Localizing rioting had erupted in Russia.
Some of the Red troops in Budapest deserted their offices and joined
the Freedom Fighters For this reason Khrushchev could not risk war.
He hesitated five days in Hungary. Finally, savage Mongolian troops
were imported from Asia to crush the uprising. Even these forces
were not commited until Khrushchev had tacit U.S. approval.
	Three years later in a speech in Budapest, Khrushchev himself
admitted the Kremlin's indecision on using force in Hungary. Had
the United States made a show of force, or even granted diplomatic
recognition, the Kremlin would have abandoned Hungary. The
United Nations, if the U.S. feared to intervene, could have sent
observers into Hungary the instant the Russians were driven out.
When the Hungarians were condemned to die alone, the hopes and
faith of millions of the world's most dedicated anti-communists died
with them. Our staunchest allies, the enslaved people behind the Iron
Curtain now believe they cannot expect help from America. If
Americans lose their freedom, the beginning of the end came in
Hungary.
	Any hope remaining behind the  Iron Curtain was ereased forever
when in July 1959 President Eisenhower invited the Butcher of
Budapest, Nikita Khrushchev to America... (...)"/John A. Stormer:
NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON, USA 1964. pp.47-49/
Posted by Judit Toth
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 25 09:01:01 PDT 1996
Article: 76776 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: W. Lippmann the "newspaperman"!
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 03:47:53 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <54mdav$3tc$1@news3.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.110
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

THE MEN OF THE PRESS
Walter Lippmann is often acclaimed as the "Dean of American
Newspaperman." His syndicated column appears in over 300 newspapers.
His name on a book makes it a best-seller. Yet, since 1940, his
"scholarly" appraisals of world affairs, his soothing, nothing-to-
worry about evaluations of communist intentions have rarely been
right.
	Lippmann is a longtime leftist. As a student at Harvard, he joined the
British Fabian Society in 1909. He became president of the Harvard
chapter of the Intercollegiate Socialist Society the same year and was
a close associate of Felix Frankfurter.
	Today [1964] Lippmann rather consistently opposes any action to free
the captive peoples behind the Iron Curtain. When the Hungarian
rebellion erupted in 1956, Lippmann was quick to caution against aid
for the Freedom Fighters. In his October 26, 1956 column, he wrote:
	"It is not in our own interest that the movement in Eastern Europe
should go so far that no accomodations with Russia is possible. In the
interest of peace and freedom, we must hope for a time - not forever,
but for a time - the uprising in the satellite orbit will be
stabilized at Titoism."
	All newsmen are NOT socialists or liberals, of course. However, as in
so many other fields, the key jobs (!), acclaim as journalistic
geniuses, opportunity to write syndicated columns, and guest spots as
panelists on TV news shows go to the liberals. [... and marxists and
socialists!] /Source - John A. Stormer: None dare call it Treason,
p.145-46. 1964, USA/
Posted by Judit Toth
&&&&&&&&&&&




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 25 09:01:02 PDT 1996
Article: 76787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:19:17 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <54lfhc$31m$3@news3.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.197
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
	By the end of President Eisenhower's first term, concern about
communism was almost non-existent. Aroused by American
campaign oratory and Voice of America broadcasts about "rolling
back the Iron Curtain" and "freeing the captive peoples," the
Hungarians revolted and drove out their Russian captors.
	During their five days of freedom, [the Freedom Fighters] appealed
in vain for help. U.S. diplomatic recognition was requested. It was
never given. The U.S. announced that it "couldn't get involved."
The Hungarian affair was referred to the United Nations. Americans
sat up through the nights in early November 1956 listening to the
stirring oratory of Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge in the UN. They
didn't know that it had no real meaning.
	When President Eisenhower sent the Hungarian affair to the United
Nations, he was, in effect, telling the Soviet Union to do as it
pleased. [And it did just that!] The communists had the veto in the
UN Security Council and could stop any action. Finally, on
November 4, 1956, the Hungarian Freedom Fighter Radio Station
broadcast these last words:
	"People of the world, listen to our call. Help us not with words, but
with actions, with soldiers and arms. Please do not forget that this
wild attack of Bolshevism will not stop. You may be the next victim.
Save us... Our ship is sinking. The light vanishes. The shadows grow
darker from hour to hour. Listen to our cry. Start moving. Extend to
us your brotherly hands... God be with you and us."
	The Hungarian  Freedom Fighters conducted their rooftop vigils in
vain, watching and waiting for American planes... which never
came. Most Americans didn't understand what it meant when the United
States referred the Hungarian affair to the UN. Is it possible that
President Eisenhower and his State Department didn't know what
they were doing? They did know. They meant for the Hungarian
revolt to fail. After four years of silence, Congressman Michael
Feighan (D-Ohio) released the text of a State Department cablegram
to Tito, the communist dictator of Yugoslavia. Dispatched on
November 2, 1956. the telegram to Tito read:
	"The Government of the United States does not look with favor
upon governments unfriendly to the Soviet Union on the borders of
the Soviet union." [Congressional Record, Aug.31. 1960 /p.226./]
It was no accident, Congressman Feighan charged, that just 36 hours
later Soviet tanks re-invaded Hungary. The Kremlin butchered
Budapest, secure in the knowledge that America would not oppose
them. The U.S. State Department had given its approval!
Would aid to Hungary have provoked war? It is unlikely.
	Khrushchev and the Kremlin had one overriding fear, the
simultaneous revolt of the enslaved peoples. In November 1956, the
satellites were restless. Localizing rioting had erupted in Russia.
Some of the Red troops in Budapest deserted their offices and joined
the Freedom Fighters For this reason Khrushchev could not risk war.
He hesitated five days in Hungary. Finally, savage Mongolian troops
were imported from Asia to crush the uprising. Even these forces
were not commited until Khrushchev had tacit U.S. approval.
	Three years later in a speech in Budapest, Khrushchev himself
admitted the Kremlin's indecision on using force in Hungary. Had
the United States made a show of force, or even granted diplomatic
recognition, the Kremlin would have abandoned Hungary. The
United Nations, if the U.S. feared to intervene, could have sent
observers into Hungary the instant the Russians were driven out.
When the Hungarians were condemned to die alone, the hopes and
faith of millions of the world's most dedicated anti-communists died
with them. Our staunchest allies, the enslaved people behind the Iron
Curtain now believe they cannot expect help from America. If
Americans lose their freedom, the beginning of the end came in
Hungary.
	Any hope remaining behind the  Iron Curtain was ereased forever
when in July 1959 President Eisenhower invited the Butcher of
Budapest, Nikita Khrushchev to America... (...)"/John A. Stormer:
NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON, USA 1964. pp.47-49/
Posted by Judit Toth
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 25 09:01:02 PDT 1996
Article: 76792 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: And Rome fell...
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:04:07 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <54ns05$su2$2@news3.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.131
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

AND ROME FELL...
	Are we not like  the Roman Empire before it fell?.... gay, lewd,
rotting from within?
	The following words were spoken by captain Diodorus in a speech to the
Roman Senate during the fall of the Roman Empire. - He rested his
hands on the lecturn, looked at the Senators... smiled, not
pleasantly but with rage: You Romans, friends, countrymen have heard
me before. I shall speak today in the name of Rome for the last time.
Then I shall be silent."
	He drew a deep breath and his breast filled with passion and strength.
"I come not to honor Rome, but to bury her."
A voice shouted, "Treason!"
	Diodorus smiled again, bowed his head and said: 
	"It is always treason to speak the truth! In this very senate, not
many years ago, a Senator was done to death because he spoke the
truth. Not by knife or sword or spear was he murdered, and not by
honest stones. No honorable hand struck him down, for there
was no honest hand here. He spoke of Rome. He cried out, that Rome was
no longer a Republic, and that she had become a bloodthirsty empire,
ruled not by men of wisdom and not by law, but by Caesar and his
legions, and his generals and his rapacious freedmen and his palace
politicians.
	The Senator stood on this very podium and he wept for the Republic. He
wept, that emperors were not elected by the people, but by infamous
legions and the idle and the ravenous mobs who wished only to devour
the fruits of the granaries and the treasuries and be amused by
charlatans, mountebanks, singers, gladiators and pugulists... at
public expense!"
	The Senators fell into a hard but intent silence, but some of the
older men bowed their heads, remembering their shame, and were enraged
against the tribune that recalled their shame to them. The soldiers
paced slowly at the doorway, listened, and turned their faces toward
Diodorus. Some were young and patriotic..
	"For greed, that young Senator cried to you, the mobs in this city
supported evil Caesars, who lusted only for power, because those
Caesars promised them loot from the public treasuries.
Venal Senators supported those Caesars for profit and power. The lying
Caesars spoke to the mobs and told them that our country could not
defend itself against the barbarians without allies, who must
endlessly be bought, cajoled and flattered.
	And traitorous Caesars plotted against their nation, mad with the lust
to be gilded like gods by the whole world, and to be acclaimed by
millions of thieves, beggars and nihilists, who never felt a
pulse of patriotism in their vultures' hearts. Those are not my words,
though I have said them before to you. They are the words of the
Senator you did to death in this very chamber.
	Rome was conceived in faith and justice, in the worship of God, and in
the name of the manhood of man. Return our country to the rule of law
and strike down the rule by men!  Restore the treasuries. Withdraw our
legions from foreign lands [NATO?] which hate us, and will
destroy us at a moment's notice when it serves their purpose.  Repeal
the taxes which crush those who work hard and industriously. Tell your
multitudes that they must work or they shall starve. Drive from the
Palatine the puny freedmen [ Lenin's useful idiots today?] who say
"yes,'yes" to Caesar, and bow before him as though he were a god and
not human flesh!
	Cleanse this chamber of rascals and mountebanks and demagogues who
declaim in rounded phrases that the welfare of the people is close to
their hearts, but who really mean ...that they will do the will of the
mob in exchange for vile plaudits, power and bribery!"
Diodorus lifted his hands in an attitude of importunity, and his
fierce eyes filled with tears as he surveyed the motionless Senators.
	"Romans! In the name of God, in the name of Cincinnatus, the father of
his country, in the name of heroism and peace, of manliness, freedom
and justice, I beg of you to restore yourselves as the guardians of
Rome, to cast out the usurper of the powers which rightfully belong to
you, to impeach and punish those who seized those powers in order to
pervert the laws of our fathers!
	Let your Roman hearts speak and your Roman spirit cry out against the
expedient and the corrupt, against the vainglorious and the traitors,
against Caesars who annoint themselves as gods and hold court for the
depraved and the ambitious and those who would dissipate the
strength of our people, our constitution, and our traditons! 
If you turn away from your country, then she will die and a thousand
legions shall not save her, and a thousand bloody Caesars will vainly
shout to the wind!"
					*
	"Once to every man and nation come the moment to decide,
in the strife of TRUTH with FALSEHOOD, for the good or evil side."
Posted by Judit Toth
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
---------------------------------------





From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Oct 25 09:01:03 PDT 1996
Article: 76793 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Between 1946 and 1949...
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:58:06 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <54nv57$1dl$1@news3.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.131
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

BETWEEN 1946 AND 1949...
The chief of the State Department's Eastern European Affairs Division,
>from  1946 to 1949 was Llewellyn E. Thompson, Jr. who wrote:
	"Between 1946 and 1949  the Free World lost practically all of Eastern
Europe to the Communists. The Kremlin did not have the military power
to take over these nations by force of arms, and it certainly did not
have the moral influence and popularity for its agents to be welcomed
by the peoples of these nations as their new rulers.
	The enslavement of Roumania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Poland and
Czechoslovakia was accomplished by diplomatic betrayals, always aided
and abetted by our State Department, followed by police-state
suppressions of all opposition, always with the acquiescence of our
State Department and frequently with actual help supplied by it.
	In some cases, as in Poland, this active aid by our State Department
in the betrayal of the country, and in its subjugation to the
Kremlin's agents, was carried out right under the eyes of an honest
and horrified American Ambassador who did everything he possibly could
to make his protests heard. The slipperiness, cunning, and
determination of our State Department during those few years, in
helping Stalin to make satellite slaves out of the people of Eastern
Europe, is utterly unbelievable to anybody who has not studied the
gruesome details at considerable length. 
	But by 1949 the job was practically finished. There remained only the
formalization of the Kremlin's rule over East Germany, in 1950, to
make Communist sway over all of Eastern Europe complete."
	ABOUT THE MAN - L.E. Thompson was responsible for the negotiations
concerning, and for for the details and wording of the Austrian Peace
Treaty. President Eisenhower sent him a "Distinguished Service"
citation for that achievement. 
	Whenever the Kremlin bestows a medal on some butcher of a million
peaceful, for his "dedication to peace," thus using an exact reversal
of the language and principles once understood and honored by the
civilized world, we can no longer look virtuously askance at such
mockery of man's history and customs. 
	Eisenhower's honoring of Thompson for "the succcessful conclusion...
of the Austrian State Treaty" was of exactly the same Communist
pattern! The American people, deceived, unaware, complacent and
morally indiferent, are being eased into the world of George Orwell
without even knowing what is happening to them.(...)
[Excerpts from Robert Welch: The Politician, pp.245-246./Belmont Publ.
Massachusetts, 1963]
*** And today not only the American people are deceived, unaware,
complacent and morally indiferent, but the world's nations also who
are mercilessly being eased into the world of George Orwell without
even knowing what is happening to them!
Posted by Judit Toth
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
----------------------------------------




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Mon Oct 28 16:47:09 PST 1996
Article: 77561 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Between 1946 and 1949...
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 18:44:30 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>In <54nv57$1dl$1@news3.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
>wrote:

>>BETWEEN 1946 AND 1949...
>>The chief of the State Department's Eastern European Affairs Division,
>>from 1946 to 1949 was Llewellyn E. Thompson, Jr. who wrote:
>>	"Between 1946 and 1949  the Free World lost practically all of Eastern
>>Europe to the Communists. The Kremlin did not have the military power
>>to take over these nations by force of arms, and it certainly did not
>>have the moral influence and popularity for its agents to be welcomed
>>by the peoples of these nations as their new rulers.

>And the relevance of this information to the topic of this newsgroup
>is . . . what?

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
--------------
ANSWER: <<
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&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
	Yuri V. Andropov was one of the most refined Soviet officials. A
topranking NKVD officer as well as diplomat, he spoke many languages,
including excellent Hungarian. As he had been a port official
receiving wartime Allied convoys he also spoke good English...
	He had been at the Budapest embassy since 1953, was a close friend of
[today celebrated!-JT] prime minister Hegedus, and by 1956 had the
kind of position that gauleiters were assigned in occupied
countries.... Andropov was an apparatchik, a funky to whom the power
structure, rather than the Party's ideology, was all-important... [It
must be noted here that Mikhail Gorbacev was his protege, (!) his
pupil. Perhaps Andropov was the father of perestroyka?-JT]
	In Budapest, in October 1956, the young soldiers of General Batov,
General Larshenko and Yuri Andropov were dying. Many of them did not
know where they were or why they were there. Some believed themselves
in Berlin, fighting *Hitler's hordes again,* or on the banks of the
Suez Canal fighting the British. (...)[excerpts from UPRISING, by
David Irving. - Veritas Publ. Co. Pty.Ltd. Australia/ 1981]
Posted by Judit Toth
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth.indexit4.html
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Mon Oct 28 16:47:10 PST 1996
Article: 77563 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: II. W. Lippmann "the newspaperman"
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 16:41:53 GMT
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TOTH: According to John Morris  my posting below on October 23/96 to
 does not belong (!) to the topic of this site. So one day
later he simply took the liberty of "snipping" it. 
	MORRIS WROTE: <<>>John Morris 
 at University of Alberta 
 The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
_____________________
TOTH: Since the censors of NIZKOR keep up being net-police, I felt I
had to repost my few lines again!
---
THE MEN OF THE PRESS
Walter Lippmann is often acclaimed as the "Dean of American
Newspaperman." His syndicated column appears in over 300 newspapers.
His name on a book makes it a best-seller. Yet, since 1940, his
"scholarly" appraisals of world affairs, his soothing, nothing-to-
worry about evaluations of communist intentions have rarely been
right.
	Lippmann is a longtime leftist. As a student at Harvard, he joined the
British Fabian Society in 1909. He became president of the Harvard
chapter of the Intercollegiate Socialist Society the same year and was
a close associate of Felix Frankfurter.
	Today [1964] Lippmann rather consistently opposes any action to free
the captive peoples behind the Iron Curtain. When the Hungarian
rebellion erupted in 1956, Lippmann was quick to caution against aid
for the Freedom Fighters. In his October 26, 1956 column, he wrote:
	"It is not in our own interest that the movement in Eastern Europe
should go so far that no accomodations with Russia is possible. In the
interest of peace and freedom, we must hope for a time - not forever,
but for a time - the uprising in the satellite orbit will be
stabilized at Titoism."
	All newsmen are NOT socialists or liberals, of course. However, as in
so many other fields, the key jobs (!), acclaim as journalistic
geniuses, opportunity to write syndicated columns, and guest spots as
panelists on TV news shows go to the liberals. [... and marxists and
socialists!] /Source - John A. Stormer: None dare call it Treason,
p.145-46. 1964, USA/
---
	You say *there is quite a difference between history and living in the
past*?  Look who is talking about living in the past? ... Isn't it
funny to read this from one of NIZKOR's agents???... Just what do you
consider "History" and according to you what does "living in the past"
mean? Please tell me! Exactly! If I decide to write about "gas
chambers, nazis, krematoria, Jewish suffering, Hungarian war
criminals" approved of course by NIZKOR on alt. revisionism ... is
that History or living in the past? Will you snip my postings if I
quote something from NIZKOR's website?...
	For all we know W. Lippmann may not even be alive today. However, the
1956 Hungarian Uprising belongs to History; Titoism belongs to
History; the Iron Curtain and W. Lippmann's soft spot toward
communists belongs to History, and yes ....even "Jewish sufferings"
belong to History. These are all events and facts thatmake up History
and keep influencing our present and our future.  
	The book "None dare call it Treason" by John A. Stormer has been
printed twenty times and had 1 million copies sold in the US. So not
to worry, there are a lot of his books going around...!
	Do you really think that you can just keep snipping things you don't
like from History's pages? If you do this, we don't have to wonder
anymore what NIZKOR & Co. could be doing out there so that all History
books reflect  the views of this "democratic" organization. 
 Posted by Judit Toth
&&&&&&&&&&&







From jtoth@infobahnos.com Mon Oct 28 16:47:11 PST 1996
Article: 77568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 21:11:34 GMT
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>jtoth@infobahnos.com writes:
>>1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
>>&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
>>1956: THE BETRAYAL OF HUNGARY
>>	By the end of President Eisenhower's first term, concern about
>>communism was almost non-existent.

>What planet are you from?

>Oh, I see it below. Planet Bircher.

>>Aroused by American campaign oratory and Voice of America broadcasts
>>about "rolling back the Iron Curtain" and "freeing the captive peoples,"
>>the Hungarians revolted and drove out their Russian captors.

>No, actually they got sick of an incompetent administration that did not
>protect their rights quite on their own.

>>	During their five days of freedom, [the Freedom Fighters] appealed
>>in vain for help. U.S. diplomatic recognition was requested.

>You know, Judy, I've got this friend, Istvan Feher, who was in Budapest in
>1956. He's told me a lot about it, about the terror, the killings, about
>how he threw molotov cocktails at Soviet tanks, about sneaking onto a
>train, jumping off near the border to freedom, wandering around in circles
>in a blizzard for two days before coming across a farmhouse. He never
>mentioned anything about diplomatic recognition. I never sensed any
>bitterness about the West's inability to respond.

>Churchill's "Iron Curtain" speech was in 1946. Eastern Europe was
>essentially lost by 1943. Hungary simply didn't stand a chance.

>>When the Hungarians were condemned to die alone, the hopes and
>>faith of millions of the world's most dedicated anti-communists died
>>with them. Our staunchest allies, the enslaved people behind the Iron
>>Curtain now believe they cannot expect help from America. If
>>Americans lose their freedom, the beginning of the end came in
>>Hungary.
>>	Any hope remaining behind the  Iron Curtain was ereased forever
>>when in July 1959 President Eisenhower invited the Butcher of
>>Budapest, Nikita Khrushchev to America... (...)"/John A. Stormer:
>>NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON, USA 1964. pp.47-49/

>...which is why we're all under Soviet domination today. Uh-huh.

>It would have been a far better world had the Allies been able to stop the
>Holocaust. 

>It would have been a far better world had the West been able to stop the
>Soviet domination over Eastern Europe. 

>But we didn't have that power.

>Judy, most normal people oppose totalitarianism, authoritarianism,
>military occupation, aggressive war, and genocide in general, on
>principle. What purpose do you think it serves for a hypocritical liar
>like you, who excuses and even endorses such methods as long as they
>advance the Nazi point of view, to state the obvious about Soviet
>Communism? 

>-rich
------------
TOTH:<<< Your friend Istvan Feher told you all that stuff huh? And
they dare to accuse me on the alt.revisionism for "using hearsay" for
my historical events?>>




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Mon Oct 28 16:47:12 PST 1996
Article: 77569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Communists and the Jewish Question"
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 02:20:47 GMT
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&&&&&&&&&&&
	Some people on alt.rev. -- for one reason or another -- don't like my
sources of quotation! Among many things they accuse me of living in
the past, being a member of the Birch Society and/or an atheist who
posts irrelevant subjects, uses nazi books instead of NIXKOR-approved
history books on the holocaust, and oh yes.... they snip-snip when I
post "anti-Zionist" diatribes from politically uncorrect Jews. They
just hate this one! And last but not least, they grab every chance to
use foul language in their replies unfit to print. What gives
folks?...
	Realizing that the data-base here is somewhat shallow in certain
fields of history, I would like to post excerpts from a book, so that
the reason for the 1956 Hungarian Uprising finally can become very
clear. 
	So then, "A note on Communists and the Jewish Question" is the title
of chapter 4. in **Hungary and the Soviet Bloc** by Charles Gati,
[Duke University Press, 1986.]  J.T.'s comments are in brackets
throughout the quotation. - If you don't know who Charles Gati is,
then ask around in the White House!
---
	Professor Charles Gati writes in his book on pages 99-102: 	
	<<<(...)people of Jewish origin led the Hungarian Communist party and
the notorious Communist-dominated political police for over a decade
after World War II.(...)
	That so many of the top leaders of the Hungarian Communist party were
of Jewish origin requires no documentation. Of course, they did not
observe religious holidays or Jewish traditions... Their adoption of
Hungaricized names also suggests the need to assume a new identity;
after all, Rakosi used to be Roth [sic! - his original name was
"Rosenkranz" -JT] Gero used to be Singer, Farkas used to be Wolf, Vas
- whose grandfather was a rabbi - used to be Weinberger, Gabor Peter,
the sadistic chief of the political police, [he died a few years ago
in Hungary, but lived like a king on fat pension until the very last
of his days! - JT] used to be Beno Auspitz, Sandor Nogradi used to be
Grunberger, Marton Horvath used to be Schiller, and so on. 
	That approximately 70 to 80 percent of the leadership of the political
police known by its dreaded acronyms AVO and then AVH - department
heads and other higher ups - was Jewish also symbolized a
psychological break with thousands of years of gentle Jewish tradition
- both compensating for the presumed weaknesses of their forefathers
and assuming a new identity.
	Jewish participation in the activities of the Hungarian Communist
movement and of the AVO stemmed from two sources. First, the appeal of
radicalism and of a harmonious society to Jewish intellectuals
everywhere, including Western Europe and North America, was apparently
of Hungarian history. As a result, many of the top leaders of the
Hungarian Communist movement were Jews. Of the fifteen member of the
first Central Committee of the Communists' party of Hungary, founded
in 1918, at least ten were Jewish. About three-fourths of the 200 high
officials of the 1919 Hungarian Soviet Republic or Commune were
Jewish. From Bela Kun [his original name Cohn-JT]  to Gero, every
secretary general of the Communist party was Jewish. [Although, the
Jewish minority in those days in Hungary numbered 900,000 out of the
total population of over 20 million, Bela Kun-Cohn appointed 22 out of
32 of his chief advisers from the Jewish community.-JT] 
	Thus, most of the reliable cadres available after 1944-45 were of
Jewish background, and this applied not only to the Muscovites but to
the home Communists as well. 
	Second, among Jews who joined the movement after WW II many did so
because of recent experiences in concentration camps and labour
battalions. They sought to REVENGE the recent past, believing that the
Soviet Union and the Hungarian Communist party, having distinguished
themselves in the struggle against Fascism in general and Nazi Germany
in particular, would support their claim for retribution. For Jews in
the middle echelons of the party and in the AVO, the unstated motto
seemed to be "Never Again!"(...)>>> [Is this not also the motto of the
Zionists of today?-JT]
	Is there any compensation or at least an apology for the tremendous
suffering of the politically uncorrect Hungarian  innocents who were
victims of Judeo-Communism in Hungary after WW II? No compensation, no
apology, ... indeed the subject is TABU to say the least, it's a
non-issue. 	
	Furthermore, when the subject comes up here on alt.rev. all we get is
NIXKOR's bulldozer-tactics, intimidation and verbal abuse! 
Judit Toth
------------ 

	



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Mon Oct 28 16:47:13 PST 1996
Article: 77570 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!not-for-mail
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.palestine
Subject: Re: Zionism and Fascism (was: Zionism and the Bolshevik Revolution
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 02:35:21 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:104519 alt.revisionism:77570 soc.culture.israel:48155 soc.culture.jewish:86902 soc.culture.palestine:22727

J.Lovi@Hebel.Net (Jacques Lovi) wrote:

>In article , msb@netcom.com (Mark S. Bilk) wrote:

>> In fact, these actions by these Israelis are fascist, racist,
>> and imperialist.  They are thoroughly evil.  They are "ethnic
>> cleansing".  They are very reminiscent of the Holocaust.

>The Shoa ("Holocaust") is a completely different thing that what was done
>by the Israeli government.  When you use this kind of vocabulary
>completely out of context, you're not credible.  You don't know what
>you're talking about.

>Genocide in the destruction of the majority of a people (like European
>Jews or Armenians).  Palestinians were oppressed - I do not deny this -
>but it is stupid to talk about genocide since never, at the end of a year
>they were fewer than at the beginning of the same year, even under the
>Israeli administration.  For example, in 1967, they were 300,000 in the
>Gaza strip, they are now 900,000 : is this a genocide ????

>> In exactly the same way as some abused children grow up to
>> become child abusers themselves, some Holocaust survivors 
>> and their children have become perpetrators of a new holocaust
>> against the Palestinians.

>It's actually stupid.  Where a genocide ????? Please tell me who, when and
>where !  And don't talk me about Sabra-Chatilla and Co., these are awfull
>things but not genocide.  This was not an attempt to kill the entire
>Palestinian people.

>> The people doing these evil things happen to be Jews.  Jews 
>> outside of Israel, and many of those inside, don't do these 
>> things; some even speak out against them.  Jews are inherently 
>> no better and no worse than anyone else.
>> 
>> Recognizing these facts does *not* constitute antisemitism.

>I don't know if you're an antisemit but I think you don't live on Earth
>since your reality is not THE reality.

>What I understand why this kind of speech, is that someone who speek like
>this tries to remove all legitimity to Israel.  So it is right to destroy
>that state that perform this (virtual) genocide.

>Usually antisemists talk like this.
--------
And YOU talk the way usually  zionists talk! Believe it or not,
Genocide can be achieved directly - with bombs, guns, physical and
psychological torture,  etc. and/or  indirectly: that is making it
physically impossible for a people to live like other human beings.
It's as simple as that...
Judit Toth
--------------  




From jtoth@infobahnos.com Wed Oct 30 07:29:16 PST 1996
Article: 77789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Between 1946 and 1949...
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 06:35:02 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
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syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:58:06 GMT, jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) wrote:

>>*** And today not only the American people are deceived, unaware,
>>complacent and morally indiferent, but the world's nations also who
>>are mercilessly being eased into the world of George Orwell without
>>even knowing what is happening to them!

>I think we have more immediately to fear from bad grammar from nitwits than
>word domination by dictators.
>____________________________________________________________________________
>syegul@ix.netcom.com                                       EFNet IRC: GinRei
>http://www.io.com/~syegul                          another worldly device...
>____________________________________________________________________________
Dear "worldly advice"! Shouldn't you check YOUR grammar first before
criticizing others?...
JT
--------



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Wed Oct 30 22:00:12 PST 1996
Article: 77877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviets were fighting Hitler in 1956 in Hungary?
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:21:40 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Someone quotes David Irving:

>>	In Budapest, in October 1956, the young soldiers of General Batov,
>>General Larshenko and Yuri Andropov were dying. Many of them did not
>>know where they were or why they were there. Some believed themselves
>>in Berlin, fighting *Hitler's hordes again,* or on the banks of the
>>Suez Canal fighting the British. (...)[excerpts from UPRISING, by
>>David Irving. - Veritas Publ. Co. Pty.Ltd. Australia/ 1981]

>Everyone who can read Mr. Irving with a straight face, say Aye.

>I'd love to know his "source" for this nonsense.

>Pop quiz: the total casualties among the Soviet troops occupying Hungary
>in 1956 were approximately... 

> a. 500,000
> b. 5,000
> c. 500

>Condoleezza Rice, *The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak army, 1948-1983:
>  uncertain allegiance*. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press,
>  1984.

>Rice was President Bush's Soviet and East European expert on the National
>Security Council.

>Anyone with a serious academic interest in the Hungarian situation is
>encouraged to read the series of reports by the International Commission
>of Jurists at The Hague. Any large University library should have them.

>For people with a less serious interest in the subject, but who do not
>actually drool (I'd hate to get any books dirty), the following was
>recommended to me by an old professor who specializes in Eastern Europe (I
>haven't read it myself):

>Felkay, Andrew. *Hungary and the USSR, 1956-1988: Kadar's political
>  leadership*. New York: Greenwood Press, 1989.

>Rothschild's *Return to Diversity* and his earlier books on Eastern
>Europe, don't remember the title, are also quite good general surveys. Oh,
>but he's got a Jewish name, sorry.

>I considered bumping followups to talk.politics.soviet, but it looks like
>they're having serious discussions over there. I'd hate to interrupt them
>with this drivel. But if Judith thinks she has a point, by all means, she
>should try to make it there.

>-rich
--------------------
<<
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <3275bd2e.43483479@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, 
>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) yawned:

>>In <54t3ea$1jb$1@news3.total.net>, jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
>>wrote:

>>>TOTH: Since the censors of NIZKOR keep up being net-police, I felt I
>>>had to repost my few lines again!

>>You really are a block of wood, you know.

>Listen, Mister. I'm a British Columbian, and we take our
>damned wood seriously around here. Ms. Toth, on the other
>hand, is from Montreal, and thinks Swartz' is a kosher
>restaurant.

>If you wish to suggest that her elevator doesn't quite reach
>the penthouse, be my guest - but don't insult wood. (British
>Columbians all use wood to pay their mortgage payments. Show
>some respect.)

>If you wish to suggest that she's using half a deck of tarot
>cards to play Canasta, I can't stop you, but lighten up on the
>WOOD.

>>Your original message is untouched and available for anyone who cares
>>to watch you vent. Nobody has censored you.

>Of course it is, but Ms. Toth has every right in the world to
>make herself look like a blithering idiot (note: not a "block
>of you-know-what"), I suggest that you encourage her to do so
>- (given past performances, it shouldn't take too much).

>>You are free to post what you want went you want, and I am free to
>>respond to as much or as little as I want.

>Now you've gone and done it - spilled the beans, you have.

>>Or do you seriously believe that anyone who disagrees with you is
>>censoring you?

>Nizkor's CollanderBot searches out and destroys all
>Anti-Swartz' articles. Anyone who hasn't enjoyed the smoked
>meat at Swartz' doesn't deserve to post here.

>>Batten down the hatches! Judith is going to vent again!

>Oh, joy! By the way, do you prefer fresh Cayenne peppers for
>your garnish, or Serano? I prefer Cayenne, but finding fresh
>ones is almost impossible. Perhaps someone deletes them every
>time they come out of the hothouse, eh?

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html
--------------
ANSWER: Ken darling, it's nice to know that you've  missed my
writings? 		
	Since  NIX-KOR& Co. knows everything, you should have it on file
somewhere in your archives that Schwartz is kosher or not!? Or is his
chow-place just for Jewish-tasting food for hungry goyim? 
---------------



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Thu Oct 31 06:50:27 PST 1996
Article: 77929 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On Conspiracy...
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:01:50 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <55aafo$5jk@newsfeeder.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup80.infobahnos.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

&&&
"Every thing secret degenerates... nothing is safe that does not show
how it can bear discussion and publicity," (Lord Acton)



From jtoth@infobahnos.com Fri Nov  1 09:09:43 PST 1996
Article: 78097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!news
From: jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A case for Human Rights people?
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 18:32:16 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <55d0kt$5d8@newsfeeder.total.net>
Reply-To: jtoth@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup37.infobahnos.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

varange@crl.com (Troy Varange) wrote:

>In article <3275f1c0.13110707@203.12.22.10>,
>David S. Maddison  wrote:  
 For all you Nazi sickos out there, here is a list of the sort of
 people your god Hilter surrounded himself. A.H. was such a pathetic
 moron, he found it necessary to surround himself with people that he
could feel superior to. And yet you fear these people.

Personal adjutants
Bruckner		Low intelligence
Burgdorff		Low intelligence
 
SS aides
Fegelein		Low intelligence
Gunsche		Low intelligence
Rattenhuber		Low intelligence

Hitler's driver		Low stature (needed special seat)
 
Hess			Mentally disturbed
Goebbels		Club foot
Hoffman 		(photographer), alcoholic, deformed back
Meier			(treasurer) one armed
Amann			(press manager) one armed, dwarf
Eckhart			(adviser) drug addict, alcoholic
Assistant press chief	hearing impaired
Schaub			(press liason) bad limp
Rohm			(leader of brownshirts) homosexual
Lutz			(leader of brownshirts) one eye
Himmler		Hypochondriac, neurotic
Streicher		(editor Der Sturmer) sex pervert
Ley			(labor front) drunk, speech defect,dull-witted
Bormann		(party secretary) alcoholic
Goring			morphine addict
von Ribbentrop	(foreign minister) Stupid, vile, vindictive
================
	REPLY: <<




	
 
	
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