From johannes@ix.netcom.com Tue Dec  3 10:49:52 PST 1996
Article: 47641 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (6128378f0ce7f3d65775b404127d6908)
References: <848850495$5213@atype.com> <848867600$5886@atype.com> <849014284$12757@atype.com>
From: johannes@ix.netcom.com (John C. Stephens III)
Organization: Netcom
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Nov 27 11:53:05 AM CST 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 18:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <849117783$877@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
Lines: 20


In <849014284$12757@atype.com> medintz@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Mike S.
Medintz) writes: 
>
>
>Whilst completely naked, Mark T Pitcavage said unto us:
>
>>Hey, I've got some suggestions for some more patches:
>
>>I  Linda Thompson
>
>Mark, what did we tell you about drawing emotional and sexual
connections 
>with Linda Thompson? Some of us read this NG during mealtimes.
>

What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've never
seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?

John


From xtr10996701@xtra.co.nz Tue Dec  3 10:49:59 PST 1996
Article: 47691 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (35a917f750ba99394fb3a21ac32bbbbe)
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From: xtr10996701@xtra.co.nz (Bill K.)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 20:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <849211397$3882@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
Lines: 81


After repeated alien abductions  Robert Ireland  opined:

>
>Mark T Pitcavage wrote:
>> 
>> In article <848850495$5213@atype.com>,   wrote:
>> >
>> >Highest quality  (Made in the USA!) embroidered patches at extremely
>> >reasonable prices.  Patches include 'Washington Cruisers',  'Esek
>> >Hopkins (Don't Tread on me)',  'Bunker Hill',  'Liberty Bell', and the
>> >traditional 'Minuteman'  patch.
>> >
>> >http://www.wyoming.com/~thunder
>> >
>> 
>> Hey, I've got some suggestions for some more patches:
>> 
>> I  Linda Thompson
>> The Federal Reserve Note Stops Here
>> Free the Freemen
>> Koernke's Kuties
>> Weather Control Brigade
>> Microchip Cheek Checked
>> Stormin' Norman's Corpsmen
>> Viper Wiper
>> Looker's Hookers
>> Pipe Bomb Squad
>> OKC--Fine by Me
>> Leroy's Boy Toy
>> Nutcase--And Proud of it!
>
>-- 
>I've got one for the antis, in honor of MP.  Its called Mark's Morons
>and it comes in Commie Red with yellow lettering.  Features a picture of
>Mark's watchdog kissing Bubba's ass.  A real collectors item.  Supplies
>limited.
>
>Robert Ireland
>aircav@zapcom.net
>
>"Liberty is not free, it must be fought for every day."
>
>Web Page: http://www.zapcom.net/~aircav
>

I tried to resist, but failed...

Anti-Militia Axis
Ohio State - A reel good hiztery skool
Shameless Power Worshipper
Pothier's Pud Pullers
Ask me how to  Initiate Force
SuperStateSupporter
Nationalist, Socialist, and proud of it!
Contestant, Pitcavage and Pothier's Purges 
Human Rights: Great Fuel for the State!
Curly, Larry, Moe and Shepps!

Bonus buper stickers:

McClinton Indictments: Billions about to be Served
Canada - Like a real country, but without the burden of a soul!
Pitcavage Debating Team - "Evasion Before Dishonor"
Elitists' Good Will Pledge:  "Do what we say, and nobody gets hurt!"
Cinege/Pothier 2000 - The Doomsday Ticket!  (campaign button)
Janet Reno - as close to a dream date as the Professor can get
The Bill of Rights: its not just for Federal breakfast any more.
Statists - People who think Mao was too soft and had bad PR.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
"We can look forward to four more years of wonderful, inspirational 
speeches full of wit, poetry, music, love and affection, plus more 
goddamn nonsense."

David Brinkley, ABC News, after Clinton clinched his re-election.

Proof that the media does not *always* lie.



From mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Tue Dec  3 10:50:05 PST 1996
Article: 47728 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (e2ef55a770bfecd55c1e243b7b76951a)
References: <848850495$5213@atype.com> <848867600$5886@atype.com> <849014284$12
From: mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark T Pitcavage)
Organization: The Ohio State University
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 19:48:43 GMT
Message-ID: <849296923$6049@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
Lines: 23


In article <849117783$877@atype.com>,
John C. Stephens III  wrote:
>What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've never
>seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?

You mean you don't subscribe to the magazine "Playpatriot"?  Too bad; you're
missing some scintillating stuff.

Miss January:  Linda Thompson
Miss February:  Joyce Riley
Miss March:  Nancy Lord
Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
Miss May:  Helen Johnson
Miss June:  Kay Sheil
Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
Miss October:  Gloria Ward
Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
Miss December:  Carolyn Chute

Wow!


From sybesma@netcom.com Tue Dec  3 10:50:10 PST 1996
Article: 47760 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (8b6b9dbb61df733d5ad2a91c0bb775b1)
References: <848850495$5213@atype.com> <848867600$5886@atype.com> <849014284$12 <849296923$6049@atype.com>
From: sybesma@netcom.com (Steven D. Sybesma)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 4:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <849328383$7189@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
Lines: 52


On Fri, 29 Nov 96 19:48:43 GMT Mark T Pitcavage [mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu] wrote:

: Miss January:  Linda Thompson
: Miss February:  Joyce Riley
: Miss March:  Nancy Lord
: Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
: Miss May:  Helen Johnson
: Miss June:  Kay Sheil
: Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
: Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
: Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
: Miss October:  Gloria Ward
: Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
: Miss December:  Carolyn Chute

: Wow!

Pretty shameless that you smear the names of the wives of people you don't like.

You should leave the wives out of it.

I don't feel so bad after all about what I said to you in other posts.

Maybe you are as bad as I suspect.

Steve
-- 
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
|****Steven D. Sybesma**Post Office Box 31456**Aurora, CO 80041-0456 USA****|
|           ****************Phone  1-303-363-6417****************           |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|            Better to have an army of 100 who have faith in God            |
|          than an army of 100,000 that believe in different gods.          |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Freedom and Liberty weren't invented here.  We simply copied them from God.|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|The aim of socialism is for mankind to divorce itself from reliance on God.|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Trading your rights for promises of peace and security is like trusting a |
|stranger to sleep with your wife and believing nothing immoral will happen.|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|America used to be about God & country---Now it's about Socialism & the NWO|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| We don't need Clinton's New Covenant.  The original one will do just fine.|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|     The U.N. should read Acts 17:22-31 with some emphasis on verse 26     |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|From where we now stand, faithfulness to the Constitution would be progress|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Join the U.S. Taxpayers Party  1-800-2 VETO IRS  http://www.ustaxpayers.org|
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*


From joe@apk.net Tue Dec  3 10:50:17 PST 1996
Article: 47796 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (64e1b8038487fa007bca3c41d39af79d)
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From: joe@apk.net (Joseph T. Adams)
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Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 1:18:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
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John C. Stephens III (johannes@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've never
: seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?

I have no idea what she looks like, but, unfortunately for Mark, she
is (a) married, and (b) very impatient with people who can't or won't
think for themselves. 

Joe


From DotHB@aol.com Wed Dec  4 06:01:05 PST 1996
Article: 48000 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (348af7f7966120d44db3ad0270b9b5c4)
From: DotHB@aol.com
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 1:34:30 GMT
Message-ID: <849576870$15043@atype.com>
Subject: SAFAN NO. 169.  Screams in the Night!!
Lines: 234


                     STOP ALL FEDERAL ABUSES NOW!
          S.A.F.A.N. Internet Newsletter, No. 169, December 2, 1996

SCREAMS IN THE NIGHT!!!
NBC PROPAGANDA AND FURTHER IMFORMATION
by Lance R. Crowe (psico1@bgn.mindspring.com) 

(Forwarded Message 
From:  lindat@iquest.net (Linda Thompson)
Subj:   MORE PROOF OF NBC PROPAGANDA
Cc:      online@nbc.com, Nightlynews.nbc.com, nbcdateline.nbc.com,
           snetnews@world.std.com, liberty-and-justice@pobox.com,
           fsnw-l@lists.primenet.com, prj@mail.msen.com, ACT@efn.org,
           patriots@dabney.com, GovtAware-L@Citadel.Net

Need more proof that NBC's agenda is to help propagandize America with
"divide and conquer" rhetoric? Here ya' go.

GET YOUR PHONE, FAX AND MODEM FINGERS WORKIN' and 
TUNE OUT NBC!!!   NBC -- NEVER AGAIN!

[If you didn't see the earlier post about GE, a DEFENSE CONTRACTOR 
that owns NBC, or Wackenhut, headed by former NSA, FBI, CIA, who 
"guard" GE and NBC, why, you don't have the WHOLE picture yet.]
Remember, GE claims they "bring good things to life."  YEAH, right. 
GE -- NEVER AGAIN!

Forwarded Message from: Susan1218@aol.com
To: 029JAM@cosmos.wits.ac.za
Subject: Your Support is Needed!

The following is a letter from Karen Pomer to Claudia Pryor - Producer 
of Dateline-NBC.  We ask that you read her statement and then if you 
feel you can,  please phone/fax/e-mail and/or write your local NBC 
Station, National Headquartersand Dateline NBC with you support of 
Karen’s position.

We also ask that you copy this e-mail address (Susan1218@aol.com) 
so that we can send Karen support statements for her files and 
information.  Thank you for your support

Susan Burnett and Karen Pomer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
FROM: Karen Pomer
TO:	Claudia Pryor Producer, Dateline NBC
DATE:  11/27/96

Wednesday, December 4, Dateline Special "Screams in the Night"

I was horrified to watch a review copy of "Screams in the Night," 
Dateline NBC's hour-long special on my kidnapping at gun point and 
six hour rape, and subsequent battle with the Santa Monica Police Department
(SMPD).  Thesegment was so inflammatory, misleading, 
distorted and inaccurate that I feel re-victimized all over again.  I 
trusted your word that the show would be about my struggles, but 
you violated my trust.

I'm writing to let you know that I am publicly disassociating myself 
>from  "Screams in the Night" because it fans the flames of racism in 
this country, especially in the racially polarized Los Angeles area.  I 
refuse to contribute to a racist thesis that I spent a lifetime fighting 
against.  As you well know, I have been a political activist for many 
years, not someone who suddenly became a crusader.  It should 
come as no surprise that I'm now fighting to save my reputation and 
my life's work;

Throughout the special, you used the dramatic device of someone 
sketching a composite of what can only be assumed is my rapist.  It
ultimately reveals a drawing of a Black man.  I have never before 
seen this drawing and was never asked to check if it was accurate.  
The sketch does not resemble my rapist (in fact I fought with the 
SMPD, too, when they put out composites that looked nothing like 
my rapist), and I am scared that a generic drawing and description 
will lead to the detention of any African American man who happens 
to be in the neighborhood where I was raped.  I am outraged that even
before this special, there have been reports of Black men being held 
for three days without so much as a phone call or charges against 
them, while the SMPD went searching for suspects with inaccurate information.
 
Journalistically, you have an obligation to be accurate.  This
sensationalistic device can only serve a fictional premise that there 
is a Black "bogey man" out there, raping white women.  I hope you understand
what the implications for that are.  This is Willie Horton all 
over again.

You played the "race card" by opening the show with reaction to the 
O.J. Simpson "not guilty" verdict.  That choice alone requires an 
obligation to address the race issue and look truthfully into how it 
played out in my case.  Instead, you preyed on stereotypes and some people's
worst fears by making the story focus on the Black rapist-white victim angle.
 Your version of the events are distorted:  I do not believe 
I was targeted by the rapist because I am white, or because of any 
reaction to O.J. Simpson's verdict.  As it turns out, police say he 
attempted to rape someone two days before the verdict, and one of his armed
robbery victims is Ethiopian.  Also, he didn't let me go because 
I told him my husband was Black, as correspondent Maria Shriver claims 
in her narration.  You did not take seriously what I told you repeatedly 
during our numerous conversations and interviews, that the fact he was Black
and I am white is incidental to the violence.  He could have been
>from  any race.

You dishonestly portrayed me as a participant in a candle-light vigil
protesting the 0.J. Simpson verdict before going home and getting 
raped.  I told you in many interviews that I went to the vigil almost by
accident, accompanying a reporter friend of mine wbo was there to 
check out the scene.  

She had been told there were "riots" in  Westwood.  When we got 
there, it turned out that angry demonstrators were spouting "the jurors 
are morons" rhetoric from the podium.  In fact, I told you I was NOT 
upset about the verdict, per se, because I felt that the police totally 
botched the Simpson case, and the defense presented a convincing 
case for reasonable doubt.  Even my rapist understood that was my 
point of view.  When I went home that night, I was not thinking about 
the verdict, contrary to Maria Shriver's narration. I was thinking how
incredibly racist those protesters were.

This show depicts me as a scared, tentative victim-- angry at the 
neighbors who didn't let me in their homes the night I was screaming 
rape, and taking my anger out instead on the African-American police 
chief.  The real truth is institutionalized racism in the Santa Monica 
Police Department played a  major role in my decision to fight in the 
first place.  Racism raised its ugliness in my very first encounter with 
the police officers.  What motivated my anger about that first police 
interview went far beyond getting a finger shaken in my face by a 
detective in the emergency room.  I recounted many stories that were
corroborated in interviews you did, such as how the only thing the
officers assigned to me were interested in was whether my rapist was 
a "Black guy".  They asked, "Was he a rapper?  Could you understand 
him? Because some of these guys don't speak English real good ."  
The SMPD composite artist at first refused to draw a sketch of him with 
thin lips and without a large afro.  My detective repeatedly asked if he 
had a "Black" nose.  When I told her I didn't know what she meant, 
she angrily said "flared nostrils."  Even Police Chief Butts was visibly 
shaken by such comments when I brought them to his attention.  Why 
did you never show this side of the story, despite countless retellings to 
you during interviews?

I absolutely refuse to participate in the myth that a white woman raped 
by a Black man automatically becomes a racist.  I also resisted and 
fought against that image when Santa Monica police officers tried to 
bait me, and I called them on this issue publicly during community 
meetings and press conferences. From the very first time I spoke out in 
public about my story, and in every interview since then, I have been 
very clear about this issue.  By leaving this very important opinion 
out  of your show, by aligning me with the racist point of view, by
sensationalizing my story with a link to O.J. Simpson, and by leaving 
out any mention that I had to actually sue the SMPD for information, 
you have come up with a very distorted picture of what happened
to me.

I do not believe, as you say you do, that including my charges of 
racism against the police in any way would have "diluted" the telling 
of my story.

Instead, it would have strengthened it, making it more understandable 
why I was so angry with the SMPD.

While I cannot presume to tell you how to do your job, and it is not 
my intention to censor you, don't you think you have a moral obligation 
to respect my viewpoints, even though you may not agree?  I believe 
you have misrepresented me completely.

One other thing:  you told me that Ms. Shriver and your executive 
producer made you remove any references to my work as an activist 
before the rape.  You said they felt by mentioning my political 
involvement -- opposing the death penalty, working to free Mumia 
Abu Jamal (the award-winning journalist on death row), documenting 
the police bombing of the MOVE organization in Philadelphia, and so 
on -- you would "lose" the audience, that my views would turn them 
off.  But that is who I am.  If you did not want to turn off the audience,
perhaps you should have chosen a different rape survivor; one who
could have fit your sensationalized, racist premise.  I am thoroughly
disgusted.

Karen Pomer
Filmmaker, activist, rape survivor, NBC victim

cc:  Neal Shapiro, Dateline NBC Executive Producer 
       Maria Shriver, Dateline NBC Correspondent

This is a response to a story Karen was subject of for an upcoming
DateLine-NBC.  If you choose to support her stand please, call your 
local NBC Station - Fax/e-mail this letter and let NBC Dateline know 
about your feelings.

NBC:   Andrew Lack, President
           30 Rockefeller Plaza, New York, NY 10112
           Tel: (212) 664-4444  Fax: (212) 664-5705
           email: online@nbc.com

EMail:  NBC
Nightlynews.nbc.com
nbcdateline.nbc.com

Phone for Claudia Pryor 
Voice 212-664-5552
Fax 212-977-5643

NBC Corporate Headquarters is 212-664-4444

Anyone wishing to contact the mainstream media may E-Mail the 
following:

TELL THE LEFT WHAT YOU THINK
	ABC Good Morning America -- gma@abc.com 
	ABC Nightline -- NTline@aol.com 
	ABC Primetime Live -- PTLive@aol.com 
	CBS News producer -- dcp@cbsnews.com
	Fox News -- foxnet@delphi.com 
	NBC Dateline -- dateline@news.nbc.com
	NBC Meet the Press -- mtp@news.nbc.com 
	NBC Nightly News -- nightly@news.nbc.com 
	NBC Today Show -- today@news.nbc.com 
	Tom Snyder Late Late Show -- latelateshow@cbs.com

REMEMBER ! ONLY YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE !
STAY TUNED FOR THE NEXT EPISODE OF HEADS UP !
Lance
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      SAFAN %Dot Bibee  (SafanNews@aol.com) Ph/FAX (423) 577-7011
      SAFAN Internet Newsletters are archived on David Feustel's page
     	   http://feustel.mixi.net   219-483-1857	 Email to: feustel@mixi.net
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++










From JOSPOTH@worldnet.att.net Wed Dec  4 06:01:08 PST 1996
Article: 48010 of misc.activism.militia
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (c84807af0de1f8ad817b576832569258)
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From: Joseph Pothier 
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Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.webspan.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 96 7:03:05 GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win95; I)
Message-ID: <849682985$3735@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
Lines: 32


Mark T Pitcavage wrote:
> 
> In article <849117783$877@atype.com>,
> John C. Stephens III  wrote:
> >What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've never
> >seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?
> 
> You mean you don't subscribe to the magazine "Playpatriot"?  Too bad; you're
> missing some scintillating stuff.
> 
> Miss January:  Linda Thompson
> Miss February:  Joyce Riley
> Miss March:  Nancy Lord
> Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
> Miss May:  Helen Johnson
> Miss June:  Kay Sheil
> Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
> Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
> Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
> Miss October:  Gloria Ward
> Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
> Miss December:  Carolyn Chute
> 
> Wow!

Hi Mark,

Did you know that Helen Chenoweth is going to be the fold-out for Jan. 1997. Personally, 
I can't wait.

JP


From JOSPOTH@worldnet.att.net Wed Dec  4 06:01:09 PST 1996
Article: 48011 of misc.activism.militia
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From: Joseph Pothier 
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 96 7:03:29 GMT
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Steven D. Sybesma wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 29 Nov 96 19:48:43 GMT Mark T Pitcavage [mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu] wrote:
> 
> : Miss January:  Linda Thompson
> : Miss February:  Joyce Riley
> : Miss March:  Nancy Lord
> : Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
> : Miss May:  Helen Johnson
> : Miss June:  Kay Sheil
> : Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
> : Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
> : Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
> : Miss October:  Gloria Ward
> : Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
> : Miss December:  Carolyn Chute
> 
> : Wow!
> 
> Pretty shameless that you smear the names of the wives of people you don't like.
> 

Oh, crap. You do it to President and Ms. Clinton all the time!!!!

> You should leave the wives out of it.
> 

Why? 

> I don't feel so bad after all about what I said to you in other posts.
> 
> Maybe you are as bad as I suspect.
> 

Yes, and thank God!


> Steve
> --


Yours,

JP

Happy Harpy


From shamrockla@earthlink.net Wed Dec  4 06:01:18 PST 1996
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From: PA Thomas 
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Joseph Pothier wrote:
> 
> Mark T Pitcavage wrote:
> >
> > In article <849117783$877@atype.com>,
> > John C. Stephens III  wrote:
> > >What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've never
> > >seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?
> >
> > You mean you don't subscribe to the magazine "Playpatriot"?  Too bad; you're
> > missing some scintillating stuff.
> >
> > Miss January:  Linda Thompson
> > Miss February:  Joyce Riley
> > Miss March:  Nancy Lord
> > Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
> > Miss May:  Helen Johnson
> > Miss June:  Kay Sheil
> > Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
> > Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
> > Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
> > Miss October:  Gloria Ward
> > Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
> > Miss December:  Carolyn Chute
> >
> > Wow!
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Did you know that Helen Chenoweth is going to be the fold-out for Jan. 1997. Personally,
> I can't wait.
> 
> JP

Is it just me, or do these boys appear to have an obsession about women 
with guns???????


From johannes@ix.netcom.com Thu Dec  5 06:55:31 PST 1996
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From: johannes@ix.netcom.com (John C. Stephens III)
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 96 1:03:41 GMT
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Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
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In <849690186$4194@atype.com> PA Thomas 
writes: 
>
>
>Joseph Pothier wrote:
>> 
>> Mark T Pitcavage wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <849117783$877@atype.com>,
>> > John C. Stephens III  wrote:
>> > >What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've
never
>> > >seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?
>> >
>> > You mean you don't subscribe to the magazine "Playpatriot"?  Too
bad; you're
>> > missing some scintillating stuff.
>> >
>> > Miss January:  Linda Thompson
>> > Miss February:  Joyce Riley
>> > Miss March:  Nancy Lord
>> > Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
>> > Miss May:  Helen Johnson
>> > Miss June:  Kay Sheil
>> > Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
>> > Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
>> > Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
>> > Miss October:  Gloria Ward
>> > Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
>> > Miss December:  Carolyn Chute
>> >
>> > Wow!
>> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> Did you know that Helen Chenoweth is going to be the fold-out for
Jan. 1997. Personally,
>> I can't wait.
>> 
>> JP
>
>Is it just me, or do these boys appear to have an obsession about
women 
>with guns???????

So what's wrong with that?  Remember the 'Macho Women with Guns'
posters back in the Eighties?  Half naked babes and automatic weapons,
it just doesn't get any better than that.

John


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Dec  5 06:55:36 PST 1996
Article: 48115 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Thu, 5 Dec 96 1:33:37 GMT
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Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
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In article <849690186$4194@atype.com>, PA Thomas
 writes:

>Joseph Pothier wrote:
>> 
>> Mark T Pitcavage wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <849117783$877@atype.com>,
>> > John C. Stephens III  wrote:
>> > >What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've
never
>> > >seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?
>> >
>> > You mean you don't subscribe to the magazine "Playpatriot"?  Too bad;
>you're
>> > missing some scintillating stuff.
>> >
>> > Miss January:  Linda Thompson
>> > Miss February:  Joyce Riley
>> > Miss March:  Nancy Lord
>> > Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
>> > Miss May:  Helen Johnson
>> > Miss June:  Kay Sheil
>> > Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
>> > Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
>> > Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
>> > Miss October:  Gloria Ward
>> > Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
>> > Miss December:  Carolyn Chute
>> >
>> > Wow!
>> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> Did you know that Helen Chenoweth is going to be the fold-out for Jan.
>1997. Personally,
>> I can't wait.
>> 
>> JP
>
>Is it just me, or do these boys appear to have an obsession about women 
>with guns???????

actually, Patti, I think they're even kinkier than that - if you look
you'll find that most of those women are married, no?


From alex@directnet.com Sat Dec  7 11:01:33 PST 1996
Article: 117605 of alt.conspiracy
From: alex@directnet.com (Alex Constantine)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Linda Thompson Smells a "Hoax"
Message-ID: 
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Linda Thompson Smells a "Hoax"

Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 17:45:10 -0700 (MST) From: "James R. Sauder"
 Subject: Ron Brown Virus Patent and Linda
Thompson To: ralph@teaminfinity.com, perceptmag@aol.com,
alex@mach1.directnet.com, 
lbdodge@flash.net, nexus@peg.apc.org
Mime-Version: 1.0


Dear Friends:

I posted the information that follows on the net last week. I have
received a strong, negative, defensive response to this information from
Linda Thompson. This e-mail message will be followed by several more in
short order. The messages that follow are Linda Thomspon's communications
to me. As far as I am concerned you may post her communications on the net
to enlighten other researchers as to how Ms. Thompson reacts to "real"
investigative research.



"The U.S. Library of Human Parts"

U.S. Multinationals such as Pfizer, Bristol Myers and Merck now hold
several hundred patents on life-forms, many housed in the American Type
Culture Collection in Rockville, Maryland where there are some 60,000
patented or potentially patentable organisms...

Many of the samples stored in ATCC involve tissue or cell lines scraped
>from  living humans or exhumed bodies. These include World Patent No. WO
9208784, or "human t-lymphotropic virus type 2 from Guaymi Indians in
Panama." This patent is claimed by Ron Brown, the U.S. Secretary of
Commerce and joint U.S. negotiator at GATT, where he is demanding global
acquiescence to the patenting of life-forms.

(Source: The Ecologist, vol. 23, no. 6, November/December 1993, p. 226) 

Richard Sauder comments: A lymphotropic virus has an affinity for the
lymph system. What does this virus do? Why did Ron Brown have a patent
claim for it? Who has the patent on this virus now? Do any other powerful
politicians hold patents on exotic viruses? If so why? 

Richard Sauder: jrs@alpine.for.nau.edu

Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 17:53:02 -0700 (MST) From: "James R. Sauder"
 Subject: Re: RON BROWN Held Virus Patents To:
ralph@teaminfinity.com, perceptmag@aol.com, alex@mach1.directnet.com, 
lbdodge@flash.net, nexus@peg.apc.org
Mime-Version: 1.0



On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Linda Thompson wrote: 

>Where would one find this world patent? Anybody know? This looks like a
hoax to me.Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 18:05:50 -0700 (MST) From: "James R.
Sauder"  Subject: Re: Ron Brown's virus patent
claim To: alex@mach1.directnet.com, lbdodge@flash.net, nexus@peg.apc.org, 
ralph@teaminfinity.com, perceptmag@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0



On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Linda Thompson wrote: 

>So? How do you know the Ecologist isn't propaganda? 

>The best proof would be to find the patent. If it's a patent, then it's
public record somewhere.


>>Dear Friends,

>>As you know, I am a very careful researcher. The information that I
posted last week on the net, that concerns the late Ron Brown's patent
claim on a lymphotropic virus from Panama, is lifted verbatim from a 1993
issue of The Ecologist. If anyone would like me to repeat the citation,
let me know.

>>Just today I received an e-mail from Linda Thompson, which says only:
"Where would one find this world patent? Anybody know? This looks like a
hoax to me."

>>I asure you I am not a hoaxer. Any of you may go to the nearest research
library and use the citation that accompanies my post to quickly and
accurately ascertain that the information I posted is a literal quote from
the public record.

>>*************************************************************************
As for Linda's question: Linda, why not try calling the ATCC in Rockville,
Maryland? They are the ones with the tens of thousands of patented and
potentially patentable organisms. Rather than crying hoax, why not do
something radical: go to the library and educate yourself. 

>>************************************************************************* 

>>Oh, one more thing-- I don't make up the facts. I have simply reported
information that I discovered in the course of my academic research. End
of story.


>>All the Best

>>Richard Sauder, BA, MALAS, PhD (and nobody's fool) 




Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 18:09:55 -0700 (MST) From: "James R. Sauder"
 Subject: Re: Ron Brown's virus patent claim To:
perceptmag@aol.com, nexus@peg.apc.org, lbdodge@flash.net, 
alex@mach1.directnet.com, ralph@teaminfinity.com Mime-Version: 1.0



On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Linda Thompson wrote: 

>I read the rest of your post.

>You are extremely rude. I asked a simple question. 

>If you get your hind end up any further, you'll need a crane to pull it down. 

>What a jerk.


>>Dear Friends,

>>As you know, I am a very careful researcher. The information that I
posted last week on the net, that concerns the late Ron Brown's patent
claim on a lymphotropic virus from Panama, is lifted verbatim from a 1993
issue of The Ecologist. If anyone would like me to repeat the citation,
let me know.

>>Just today I received an e-mail from Linda Thompson, which says only:
"Where would one find this world patent? Anybody know? This looks like a
hoax to me."

>>I asure you I am not a hoaxer. Any of you may go to the nearest research
library and use the citation that accompanies my post to quickly and
accurately ascertain that the information I posted is a literal quote from
the public record.

>>*************************************************************************
As for Linda's question: Linda, why not try calling the ATCC in Rockville,
Maryland? They are the ones with the tens of thousands of patented and
potentially patentable organisms. Rather than crying hoax, why not do
something radical: go to the library and educate yourself. 

>>************************************************************************* 

>>Oh, one more thing-- I don't make up the facts. I have simply reported
information that I discovered in the course of my academic research. End
of story.


>>All the Best

>>Richard Sauder, BA, MALAS, PhD (and nobody's fool) 




Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 18:15:22 -0700 (MST) From: "James R. Sauder"
 Subject: Re: RON BROWN Held Virus Patent To:
alex@mach1.directnet.com, perceptmag@aol.com, ralph@teaminfinity.com, 
nexus@peg.apc.org, lbdodge@flash.net
Mime-Version: 1.0


On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Linda Thompson wrote: 


>Read my post, Mr. Rudeness.

>You cite the Ecologist. Nobody disputes you cited them. I want to know
where the patent is. If it is such a reliable source, it should exist
somewhere and be findable.

>Relying on someone else's research to claim yours is credible is pretty lame. 

>Your response was extremely defensive, too. Tells me you don't have much
confidence in it.

>And you had to write TWO such rude posts. 

>You're basically a jerk.



>>A hoax? I do very careful research, Linda. I suggest you do something
radical and daringly investigative: go to the library and look up the
citation yourself. I have posted the citation on the net. If you need it
repeated let me know and I will send you a copy. But before you accuse me
of posting a hoax I suggest you first examine the facts. 

>>Richard Sauder, PhD




>>On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Linda Thompson wrote: 

>>>Where would one find this world patent? Anybody know? This looks like a
hoax to me.

        Some "hoax." Here is more on the patent:

Addemdum

          PRESS RELEASE - OCTOBER 26, 1993 - FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Indigenous People Protest U.S. Secretary of Commerce Patent Claim on Guaymi
                              Indian Cell Line

The US Secretary of Commerce Ron Brown is under growing pressure to withdraw
a patent claim on the cell line of a 26 year old Indian woman from Panama,
mother of two. The Guaymi General Congress, which represents Panama's
largest indigenous population, and the World Council of Indigenous Peoples,
have protested the patent claim in the USA, and recently took their concerns
to a UN meeting in Geneva.

Patent claim WO 9208784 A1 has been lodged by U.S. Secretary of Commerce for
the Human T-Lymphotropic Virus Type 2, drawn from the "immortalized" DNA of
the Guaymi woman. The original blood sample is cryogenically preserved at
the American Type Culture Collection in Rockville, Maryland. According to
researchers at the Atlanta-based Centre for Disease Control, the sample was
collected with the "oral informed consent" of the woman in 1990, somewhere
near a banana plantation in western Panama. It is not clear whether the
consent was sought or given in Spanish, or in the woman's own language.

Information about the patent claim was uncovered by RAFI (the Rural
Advancement Foundation International) in August. Pat Mooney of RAFI carried
the news to Panama in a meeding with Isidro Acosta, President of the Guaymi
General Congress in mid-September. "The Guaymi President was incensed,"
Mooney recalls of the rushed overnight meeting. "He decided immediately to
write to US Secretary Ron Brown challenging the patent claim, and asking him
to withdraw it. He also wrote to the US Patent and Trademark Office, calling
on them to halt the patent claim process, and to the Director of the
American Type Culture Collection, demanding that the blood sample be
returned to the Guaymi in Panama.

Isidro Acosta and a second Guaymi representative, Ester Carpintero, then
flew to Geneva on October 10th, to raise the issue directly at the
intergovernmental meeting on the Biological Diversity Convention, adopted
last year's Earth Summit in Brazil. The Guaymi had decided to seek
protection from the U.S. claim under the terms of the Convention, originally
intended to protect flora and fauna.

"News of the Guaymi patent claim was met with incredulity and outrage by
government and non-government representatives alike" reports Jean Christie
of RAFI, who assisted the two Guaymi while in Geneva. "Acosta and Carpintero
also went to the GATT secretariat, to discuss what the draft GATT agreement
says about the contentious issue of patenting material of human origin",
says Christie.

GATT was an obvious stopping point for the Guaymi in Geneva, since the U.S.
Secretary of Commerce who filed the Guaymi claim is responsible, with the
White House, for U.S. negotiations at GATT. The United States is arguing
that all life forms should be patentable. Efforts by Scandinavian countries
to exclude human material from the patent claims have apparently failed. In
a meeting at the GATT secretariat, the Guaymi leader learned the disturbing
news that nothing in the current GATT draft agreement on intellectual
property explicitly excludes human patenting.

According to Donald Rojas, President of the World Council of Indigenous
Peoples - who sponsored the Guaymi visit to Geneva, "Acosta knows the battle
is significant, and that the stakes could be very high. The Guaymi cell line
could have enormous commercial value, as could genetic material from other
indigneous people. The Guaymi want the cell line returned to the and they
want to ensure that the United States and others can't profit from the DNA
of indigenous people, or any human beings."

RAFI's Mooney and Christie concur. "This is just the most outrageous example
of bio-piracy", Jean Christie insists. "Behind this lies the whole Human
Genome Diversity Project of Europe and North America, which is planning to
collect DNA samples from ten to fifteen thousand indigenous persons from
more than 700 ethnic communities worldwide, at a cost of US$23-25 million
over five years. Scientists have discovered that slight variations in the
human genome - as can exist between different ethnic communities - can have
enormous medical and commercial significance.

The Guaymi woman's cell line is of special interest because some Guaymi
people carry a unique virus and its antibodies, which may prove useful in
AIDS and leukemia research. Recently, a community in Africa's Sudan has been
found to carry genetic resistance to malaria, while villagers in Limone,
Italy have been found to carry a gene that codes against some forms of heart
disease. Other researchers have discovered that some prostitutes in Nairobi
seem invulnerable to HIV. All of these cases are examples of unique genetic
variation within the human family that could have social and commercial
value. "The Guaymi are not objecting to medical research and are happy to
contribute to improving the human condition," Pat Mooney argues. "What they
object to is piracy, and the immorality of granting monopoly control over
human cell lines. When a foreign government comes into a country, takes
blood without explaining the real implications to local people, and then
tries to patent and profit from the cell line, that's wrong. Life should not
be subjected to patent monopolies."

The Guaymi General Congress agrees, and Isidro Acosta will continue to
oppose the patenting of all life forms - particularly of his own species and
community. In translation Acosta (who is also a lawyer) says, "I never
imagined people would patent plants and animals. It's fundamentally immoral,
contrary to the Guaymi view of nature, and our place in it. To patent human
material... to take human DNA and patent its products, ... that violates the
integrity of life itself, and our deepest sense of morality."

The World Council of Indigenous Peoples and the Guaymi General Congress are
now calling for a complete halt to the Human Genome Diversity Project until
patent and other issues are resolved satisfactorily.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to Patenting People

Alex Constantine


From mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Sat Dec  7 15:06:37 PST 1996
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Organization: The Ohio State University
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 96 15:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <849714483$514@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
Lines: 37


In article <849682985$3735@atype.com>,
Joseph Pothier   wrote:
>
>Mark T Pitcavage wrote:
>>
>> In article <849117783$877@atype.com>,
>> John C. Stephens III  wrote:
>> >What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've never
>> >seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?
>>
>> You mean you don't subscribe to the magazine "Playpatriot"?  Too bad; you're
>> missing some scintillating stuff.
>>
>> Miss January:  Linda Thompson
>> Miss February:  Joyce Riley
>> Miss March:  Nancy Lord
>> Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
>> Miss May:  Helen Johnson
>> Miss June:  Kay Sheil
>> Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
>> Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
>> Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
>> Miss October:  Gloria Ward
>> Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
>> Miss December:  Carolyn Chute
>>
>> Wow!
>
>Hi Mark,
>
>Did you know that Helen Chenoweth is going to be the fold-out for Jan. 1997. P
ersonally,
>I can't wait.

Groovy.  I think she and Steve Stockman are going to be doing a series of adult
videos soon.


From mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Sat Dec  7 15:06:41 PST 1996
Article: 48169 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (e1aff39d8dbd912cacaa88b909cf9716)
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From: mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark T Pitcavage)
Organization: The Ohio State University
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 96 16:03:06 GMT
Message-ID: <849715386$562@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
Lines: 44


In article <849690186$4194@atype.com>,
PA Thomas   wrote:
>
>Joseph Pothier wrote:
>>
>> Mark T Pitcavage wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <849117783$877@atype.com>,
>> > John C. Stephens III  wrote:
>> > >What is this thing Dr. Pitcavage has about Linda Thompson?  I've never
>> > >seen a picture of her, is she that much of a babe?
>> >
>> > You mean you don't subscribe to the magazine "Playpatriot"?  Too bad; you'
re
>> > missing some scintillating stuff.
>> >
>> > Miss January:  Linda Thompson
>> > Miss February:  Joyce Riley
>> > Miss March:  Nancy Lord
>> > Miss April:  Carol Trochmann
>> > Miss May:  Helen Johnson
>> > Miss June:  Kay Sheil
>> > Miss July:  M. Elizabeth Broderick
>> > Miss August:  Dana Dudley Landers
>> > Miss September:  LeAnn Schwasinger
>> > Miss October:  Gloria Ward
>> > Miss November:  Eva Vail Lamb
>> > Miss December:  Carolyn Chute
>> >
>> > Wow!
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Did you know that Helen Chenoweth is going to be the fold-out for Jan. 1997.
 Personally,
>> I can't wait.
>>
>> JP
>
>Is it just me, or do these boys appear to have an obsession about women
>with guns???????

Oooooooh.  You found out.


From eaustinii@delphi.com Sat Dec  7 15:06:50 PST 1996
Article: 48213 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (5d116509236b9386c5e9c7f94809732f)
References: <848850495$5213@atype.com> <848867600$5886@atype.com> <849014284$12757@atype.com> <849117783$877@atype.com>
From: Ernest Austin II 
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
X-To: John C. Stephens III 
Return-Path: news@news2.delphi.com
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 96 22:18:05 GMT
Message-ID: <849737885$2078@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 'Militia' Patches
Lines: 30


John C. Stephens III  writes:
 
>>Whilst completely naked, Mark T Pitcavage said unto us:
>>
>>>Hey, I've got some suggestions for some more patches:
>>
>>>I  Linda Thompson
>>
 
 
Folks:
 
   I have some suggestions, too:
 
The Few, The Proud, The Useless
Head of Bone, Heart of Stone
Too weird for the CIA
Preparing for the UFOs
Officially Declared Insane
Anachronisms Unite!  You have nothing to lose but your sanity!
--
***************************************************************
*                                                             *
*     Ernest Austin II           eaustinii@delphi.com         *
*     Defender of Liberalism     Scourge of the Right Wing    *
*     Proud owner of             an Amiga 2000 computer       *
*     Embrace knowledge          Cast out hysteria            *
*                                                             *
***************************************************************


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Dec  7 15:07:23 PST 1996
Article: 48355 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (7057943f4716adfcdd8f75b36f8f7d4f)
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From: ahabiz@aol.com
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
X-Admin: news@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 96 17:34:00 GMT
Message-ID: <849893640$9979@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity is a Bogeyman
Lines: 248


In article <849856684$8628@atype.com>, Dave Kuehne 
writes:

>I know this was to Dan, but I decided to put in my two cents worth.
>
>ahabiz@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Dan,  Interesting theory, unfortunately the facts seem to mitigate
>> against it...for instance the identity movement is NOT Christian,
however
>>-------------------------->^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Since when are you authorized to separate the sheep from the goats?

it's called basic training in scripture and theology (both of which I've
had) - and the identity movement directly contradicts basic Christian
theology and doctrine.

>Who died and made *YOU* God?

unneccessary for anyone to do any such thing...


>> much they may attempt to claim the title.  In point of fact here is
what
>> mark thomas, one of the leaders of the identity movement has to say
about
>> Christianity.:
>
>> Our God is not some pussy-whipped American White man who is suffering
from
>> "low self esteem".
>> The filth that is is preached in His Name every Sunday throughout the
>> churches that fill and poison
>> our land does not hurt His feelings. Calling Him a jew does not bruise
His
>> Divine Ego, He hates
>> false religion because it enslaves and destroys the children he so
>> desperately loves!
>
>No problem so far,

uh, Dave, he isn't just talking about the "feel good" types here - he's
describing what he thinks of *all* Christian denominations.

> except I don't understand how they can say that
>Jesus wasn't a Jew. Jesus Christ is of the tribe of Judah, and that
>makes him a Jew as far as I can tell.

one would certainly think so.

> That is not to be confused with
>the descendans of the Khazars (sp?) who *ALSO* call *THEMSELVES* "Jews"
>even though they have no more blood of Abraham than Idi Amin.

okay, now you're confusing genetics with theology.

>> As Elijah did to the priests of Baal at the brook Kidron in 1st Kings
>> 18:40, so shall it be done to
>> these latter-day witch-doctors. The waters of that stream ran red with
the
>> blood of the false teachers
>> slain by Elijah. 1st Corinthians Chapter Ten tells us that these Old
>> Testament accounts are preserved
>> "for our example".
>
>Can't argue with him there.

again you're not seeing that he's talking about *all* Christians.  More to
the point this sort of action is NOT allowed under the Second
Covenant...again pointing out the fact that these identity types are not
Christian.

>> So nice and dry and wooden, these modern temples of Baal are. How
>> impossible to extinguish once
>> they begin to burn. In a nearby community last year a couple of drunken
>> skinheads hung the head of
>> a pig on the door of a synagoge and got in more trouble than two girls
in
>> the same town who burned
>> a church down. The sad reality is that the jews and their synagoges,
would
>> never have come to this
>> once great land were it not for the "Priests of Baal" who teach us all
to
>> worship them as "God's
>> Chosen". Revival will come to America when the heads of the White witch
>> doctors hang on the
>> doors of so-called Christian churches as they go up in flames.
Revelations
>> 18:17 tells us to come out
>> of this modern "Babylon" and to avenge on her the blood shed from the
days
>> of Rome to Waco.
>> From Jacque De Molay to Joan of Arc innocent blood cries out for
vengeance
>> and Revelations 18:6
>> demands double.
>
>What's wrong with that? 
>I didn't see him advocate the hanging of the head of
>a pig on the door of a synagoge. He just pointed out that our so-called
>"justice" system is biased. A "hate" crime against a synagoge gets far
>more publicity than any crime against a Christian church.

No, that's not all he's doing there - he's also calling for violence
against both Jews and Christians - go back and read that section again.

>  We know this to
>be a fact because 59% of all television network executives are Jewish.
>That's right out of the Jewish Encyclopedia.

? that statement makes no sense?  


>> One of the greatest mistakes made by the Third Reich was the burning of
>> only the synagoges. Hitler
>> believed that "the Church and the British Empire were indispensable to
>> civilization". How utterly
>> tragic because this mistake cost Germany, and all our race, the war. He
>> should have destroyed the
>> British army at Dunkirk and leveled every church in Germany. Both of
these
>> evil institutions have
>> been puppets of the jew for centuries to conquer the bodies and souls
of
>> our race. Both are so
>> irredeemably corrupted from what they once were that they must be
>> obliterated.
>
>O.K., so you're right on this count.
>I can't stomach anyone who glorifies Hitler.
>
>But there is one thing I don't understand.
>
>The television networks are controlled by Jews. This is indisputable.

no, that's an unwarranted assumption which white supremacists try to pass
off as factual.  On the other hand, the vast majority of the people in the
media *are* pseudoliberals.


>On the other hand, our government is following in the footsteps of
>Hitler. This is also indisputable. Gun-control, secret police, etc.
>
>So why don't the television networks denounce what our government is
doing?
>Instead they praise it.
>
>Go figure. I don't get it.

This, also, is because the vast majority of the people in the mainstream
media are pseudo-liberals.

 
>> (you can find the entire rant from which this was extracted at:
>> http://www2.stormfront.org/watchman/qg.html  )
>> 
>> Secondly, the identity movement's 'theology' bears no resemblance to
>> Christianity in that they deny everything from the fact that Jewish
people
>> are Jewish, to the existance of the Trinity.  Instead, they espouse
>> something called the 'quaterinty' which attempts to fuse nordic
mythology,
>> specificly odhinism into their belief system as well - a notoriously
bad
>> fit.
>
>That is *BIZARRE*! I wan't *NO* part of that!

funny, most Conservative Christians react that way - I guess that's why
the identity recruiters work so hard to cover that part of their religion
up in public...of course then they're dumb enough to post it on their web
sites anyway, so that sort of negates their other efforts.

>> They are in no wise related to any mainstream branch of
>> Judeo-Christianity.
>
>I can't blame them for that. The "mainstream" churches are a disgrace.
>They are little more than extensions of the government.
>They preach the party line on taxes, gun-control, Waco, militias, etc.

some do and some don't, Dave - it depends which denomination and what part
of the country you are in.  Also, there are a number of on-going splits
occurring within the Protestant mainstream denominations, primarily along
conservative/liberal dividing lines...as well as a number of very
conservative Jewish groups floating around, so it isn't all one way or the
other - although again the pseudo-liberals in the mainstream media would
certainly like people to believe that was true.


>> Thirdly, despite it's protestations to the contrary, the identity
movement
>> isn't even really a religion, but simply a front for the aryan nations
-
>> they admit this openly - the real name of their organization, which can
>> also be found on various parts of that  website is: "the church of
Jesus
>> Christ christian, aryan nations ".  So you see that they don't even try
to
>> hide the fact that they front for an openly neo-nazi organization.
>
>I think the same could be said of the Nation of Islam.

I agree - from my perspective one racist organization looks pretty much
like another.

>> Fourth, all members of the Constitutional Militias must swear an oath
of
>> loyalty to the Constitution *as it currently stand* AND with the
>> understanding that this means that we will defend the fundamental
rights
>> of *all* American citizens.  Since the fundamental goals of the aryan
>> nations are include overthrow of the current Constitutional form of
>> government in favor of a racist regime of their own making, AND the
denial
>> of fundamental rights to noncaucasian Americans, it is impossible to
>> accept them as militia members.
>> 
>> To borrow a phrase, it's as simple as that....
>
>I think you meant to say "It's just that simple."

actually, I was using Dan's phrase back at him :-)

>A classic Linda Thompson quote.
>But I don't think you can use that statement here.
>That's reserved for when you drive home a point that is beyond dispute.
>Obviously that is not the case here.
>
>The fact of the matter is that they are *ALREADY* a part of the militia,
>along with the Blacks and Jews they hate so much.

hmm, okay if you derive that from the Mason quote, I can see why you'd say
that, yet even in those days, obvious criminal elements were not generally
admitted to militia ranks, and therefore it is within historical precedent
to disallow the neonazis from participation.

>Your mission is to get all of them to open their eyes and see the common
>enemy that is threatening *ALL* of us.

uh Dave, they don't *want* to see that - they want to have everybody see
things their way...and that ain't gonna happen.

Arlin Adams




From dkuehne@erols.com Sat Dec  7 15:07:24 PST 1996
Article: 48360 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 96 7:18:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: Christian Identity is a Bogeyman
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I know this was to Dan, but I decided to put in my two cents worth.

ahabiz@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi Dan,  Interesting theory, unfortunately the facts seem to mitigate
> against it...for instance the identity movement is NOT Christian, however
>-------------------------->^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Since when are you authorized to separate the sheep from the goats?
Who died and made *YOU* God?

> much they may attempt to claim the title.  In point of fact here is what
> mark thomas, one of the leaders of the identity movement has to say about
> Christianity.:

> Our God is not some pussy-whipped American White man who is suffering from
> "low self esteem".
> The filth that is is preached in His Name every Sunday throughout the
> churches that fill and poison
> our land does not hurt His feelings. Calling Him a jew does not bruise His
> Divine Ego, He hates
> false religion because it enslaves and destroys the children he so
> desperately loves!

No problem so far, except I don't understand how they can say that
Jesus wasn't a Jew. Jesus Christ is of the tribe of Judah, and that
makes him a Jew as far as I can tell. That is not to be confused with
the descendans of the Khazars (sp?) who *ALSO* call *THEMSELVES* "Jews"
even though they have no more blood of Abraham than Idi Amin.

> As Elijah did to the priests of Baal at the brook Kidron in 1st Kings
> 18:40, so shall it be done to
> these latter-day witch-doctors. The waters of that stream ran red with the
> blood of the false teachers
> slain by Elijah. 1st Corinthians Chapter Ten tells us that these Old
> Testament accounts are preserved
> "for our example".

Can't argue with him there.

> So nice and dry and wooden, these modern temples of Baal are. How
> impossible to extinguish once
> they begin to burn. In a nearby community last year a couple of drunken
> skinheads hung the head of
> a pig on the door of a synagoge and got in more trouble than two girls in
> the same town who burned
> a church down. The sad reality is that the jews and their synagoges, would
> never have come to this
> once great land were it not for the "Priests of Baal" who teach us all to
> worship them as "God's
> Chosen". Revival will come to America when the heads of the White witch
> doctors hang on the
> doors of so-called Christian churches as they go up in flames. Revelations
> 18:17 tells us to come out
> of this modern "Babylon" and to avenge on her the blood shed from the days
> of Rome to Waco.
> From Jacque De Molay to Joan of Arc innocent blood cries out for vengeance
> and Revelations 18:6
> demands double.

What's wrong with that? I didn't see him advocate the hanging of the head of
a pig on the door of a synagoge. He just pointed out that our so-called
"justice" system is biased. A "hate" crime against a synagoge gets far
more publicity than any crime against a Christian church. We know this to
be a fact because 59% of all television network executives are Jewish.
That's right out of the Jewish Encyclopedia.

> One of the greatest mistakes made by the Third Reich was the burning of
> only the synagoges. Hitler
> believed that "the Church and the British Empire were indispensable to
> civilization". How utterly
> tragic because this mistake cost Germany, and all our race, the war. He
> should have destroyed the
> British army at Dunkirk and leveled every church in Germany. Both of these
> evil institutions have
> been puppets of the jew for centuries to conquer the bodies and souls of
> our race. Both are so
> irredeemably corrupted from what they once were that they must be
> obliterated.

O.K., so you're right on this count.
I can't stomach anyone who glorifies Hitler.

But there is one thing I don't understand.

The television networks are controlled by Jews. This is indisputable.

On the other hand, our government is following in the footsteps of
Hitler. This is also indisputable. Gun-control, secret police, etc.

So why don't the television networks denounce what our government is doing?
Instead they praise it.

Go figure. I don't get it.
 
> (you can find the entire rant from which this was extracted at:
> http://www2.stormfront.org/watchman/qg.html  )
> 
> Secondly, the identity movement's 'theology' bears no resemblance to
> Christianity in that they deny everything from the fact that Jewish people
> are Jewish, to the existance of the Trinity.  Instead, they espouse
> something called the 'quaterinty' which attempts to fuse nordic mythology,
> specificly odhinism into their belief system as well - a notoriously bad
> fit.

That is *BIZARRE*! I wan't *NO* part of that!

> They are in no wise related to any mainstream branch of
> Judeo-Christianity.

I can't blame them for that. The "mainstream" churches are a disgrace.
They are little more than extensions of the government.
They preach the party line on taxes, gun-control, Waco, militias, etc.

> Thirdly, despite it's protestations to the contrary, the identity movement
> isn't even really a religion, but simply a front for the aryan nations -
> they admit this openly - the real name of their organization, which can
> also be found on various parts of that  website is: "the church of Jesus
> Christ christian, aryan nations ".  So you see that they don't even try to
> hide the fact that they front for an openly neo-nazi organization.

I think the same could be said of the Nation of Islam.

> Fourth, all members of the Constitutional Militias must swear an oath of
> loyalty to the Constitution *as it currently stand* AND with the
> understanding that this means that we will defend the fundamental rights
> of *all* American citizens.  Since the fundamental goals of the aryan
> nations are include overthrow of the current Constitutional form of
> government in favor of a racist regime of their own making, AND the denial
> of fundamental rights to noncaucasian Americans, it is impossible to
> accept them as militia members.
> 
> To borrow a phrase, it's as simple as that....

I think you meant to say "It's just that simple."
A classic Linda Thompson quote.
But I don't think you can use that statement here.
That's reserved for when you drive home a point that is beyond dispute.
Obviously that is not the case here.

The fact of the matter is that they are *ALREADY* a part of the militia,
along with the Blacks and Jews they hate so much.

Your mission is to get all of them to open their eyes and see the common
enemy that is threatening *ALL* of us.

The New World Order has vowed to destroy *ALL* fundamentalist religions,
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

We *MUST* learn to hang together, or *SURELY* we *WILL* hang separately!

It's just that simple.

-Dave



From rarpol@aol.com Sat Dec  7 15:07:31 PST 1996
Article: 48384 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 96 18:19:01 GMT
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Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 71


In article <849757685$3730@atype.com>, Hanson  writes:

>> > > Not to mention the fact that a number of children (and some adults)
had
>> > > already left during the 51 days and were safe and unharmed, and the
>> > > Branch Davidians knew it.
>> >
>> > That does not justify what the government did in the end. If
everything
>> > the government said about the Davidians were true (and most of it was
>> > not true) it would still not justify the actions of the ATF or the
FBI
>> > Hostage rescue team. Mistakes made by the Branch Davidians do not
excuse
>> > the crimes committed against them.
>> >
>> > Hanson
>> 
>> Mistakes, yes, the FBI and BATF made terrible ones.  But crimes?  No.
>> Surviving Branch Davidians and David Koresh's writings say that Koresh
>> taught that they would all die together in a fire and go straight to
>> heaven.  That fire was suicide.  And that's where I'd fault the FBI,
for
>> not taking that into consideration, especially after the Jim Jones
>> experience in Guyana.
>> 
>> However, if the Branch Davidians beliefs are correct, David Koresh will
>> be back any day now and will explain the whole thing.  According to
>> articles I've read in the dreaded mainstream media which actually
quotes
>> real surviving BDs,  they are far less upset about it than the posters
>> here.  It was all written in Koresh's prophesies, and all their loved
>> ones will be back soon, too.
>> >
>> > "When the police break the law then there is no law, only the fight
for
>> > survival"   Billy Jack
>
>
>If you did what the Federalies did in Waco you would be prosecuted, No??
>Mistakes? Yes. Crimes? Yes. Coverup? Still.

The mistakes and errors were primarily in the areas of judgement.  The
Feds had never dealt with a messianic maniac like Koresh before. 
Therefore, they used the same tactics that would have worked with the
normal bank robber holding hostages. As for a cover up, other than
something Linda THompson has cooked up, where is your data on that Hanson?
 Do you disregard the evidence to the contrary that shows that Koresh
would not let anybody out without his personal OK, that he believed he was
Christ, or that the Davidians themselves set the fires at Mt. Carmel?

>Violations of the constitution? Nearly every day, from the beginning.

If that were true, you go to court and prove it before a jury of your
peers.  The Founding Fathers would not have gone to trouble of setting up
a system like ours if all constitutional disputes were to be settled in
gunfights.


>Hanson
>
>
>
>



Randy Ragsdale (rarpol@aol.com)




From lness@indiana.edu Mon Dec  9 17:21:08 PST 1996
Article: 118538 of alt.conspiracy
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From: lness@indiana.edu (Lester John Ness)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Linda Thompson Smells a "Hoax"
Date: 9 Dec 1996 23:22:56 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
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	Perhaps she should bathe more frequently or eat fewer beans.

-- 
Lester Ness	lness@indiana.edu


From rgates8254@aol.com Tue Dec 10 06:58:03 PST 1996
Article: 118647 of alt.conspiracy
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From: rgates8254@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Linda Thompson Smells a "Hoax"
Date: 9 Dec 1996 18:08:50 GMT
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  Who knows, perhaps she is an expert on "hoaxes"

Cheers,

RGates8254@AOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!  I know not what course other may take but as for me; give me liberty or give me death!
                 ------Patrick Henry
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From opf@azi.com Tue Dec 10 09:09:49 PST 1996
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From: Gary Hunt 
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 14:32:51 GMT
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Subject: Re: Terrorism?, or An Act of War? (was Patriots! Please mail/email this letter now! **)
Lines: 82


mo10cav@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Gary Hunt argues OKC was justifiable "Act of War"---
> 
> A couple of observations:
> 
> 1.  WHO DECLARED THE F--KING WAR?!?!?
> If you believe Dennis Mahon, White Aryan Resistance (who had more than a
> little to do with it) the war was "declared" by Bob Mathews back before he
> was killed in the mid-Eighties.  Too bad they forgot to tell all the
> mothers and fathers of those innocent kids in the daycare that there was a
> war on, huh?
> 
Mike,  I don't know where you are coming from. If you are a patriot, or
Constitutionalist, you have been whining about government actions
against patriots since you became such. Why is it, then, that if another
patriot (which McVeigh was, whether he was duped, or not) takes action
in retaliation for the actions taken against a church in Waco, Texas,
you don't recognize what political status exists? 

> 2.  If Gary Hunt is signing onto Mathews "Declaration or War" by this
> wishy-washy moral equivalency argument, we thank him for announcing it to
> the Constitutional Militias of the United States so that we can mark him
> down in the OPFOR column and take appropriate measures.
> 
I am not signing on to anyone else's declaration. I am making
observations about events that I have witnessed, some first hand. Gordon
Kahl, hunted like a dog, and shot by Sheriff Matthews   (or, so the
story goes) while sitting in a rocker facing the other direction. Then,
Kahl shot Matthews (or, so the story goes), and both are dead.   How
about Donald Scott, in California. Shot to death in his own home by
overzealous government agents seeking to steal his 400 acre ranch
(according to Ventura County District Attorney's report).  Or, I'm sure
you joined up by Randy Weaver's setup by BATF. Randy wouldn't turn
against others who disliked government, although he didn't, necessarily,
agree with their philosophy.   Then, there's Waco. Tax collectors (BATF)
kill nearly one hundred people in an effort to collect a tax. The tax,
my friend, was never collected.
  So, I've tried to describe what appears to me to be the circumstances.
Perhaps you may not agree with my conclusions, but if you disagree with
my observations, why don't you point out the error in them. Attacking
people who believe differently to you, rather than attacking their
ideas, is contrary to what patriots and Constitutionalist espouse to be
their goal. Remember the First Amendment? And, I would die defending
your right to your opinion on a subject, but not your right to attack
the person that disagrees with you.

> 3.  I see that Linda Thompson was not far off, Gary, in branding you an
> agent provocateur.  My apologies to Linda for doubting her word in this
> case.
> 
Ah! Queen Linda. Let's see. Bring your tanks, airplanes, cannons, guns
and weapons of war to Waco. We'll show those BATF/FBI people who owns
this country. Or, how about, Let's go, armed, to Washington, D.C., and
hang the congressmen that don't repent?  What, exactly, is an agent
provocateur?  I would presume it to be a person who gathers names (ever
try her BBS?), and attempts to incite specific, identifiable,
prosecutable actions. Me?, I try to provoke thought. I observe events
and report on them. Have you read any of mine news articles? I also read
history. Somehow, two hundred years ago, the ragtag. Homespun people
managed to defeat the greatest military force the world has ever known.
The final spark, however, was an event much like Waco. 
> -- Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR

Sam Adams said that the revolution occurred from 1760 to a775, and was
over before the first blood was shed at Lexington. The ideology of a
people was changed to recognize the truth of the circumstances of
government. Their desire to have the rights that they were born with was
not recognized without the efforts of many to bring attention to the
relationship they really had with the government. That state of mind
that was necessary to be able to re-secure their rights came from a
change in awareness. Otherwise, the men at Lexington would not have
stood their ground, and those from the surrounding countryside would not
have taken after the British.
  No, I am not an agent provocateur, nor am I a provocateur. It is only
what I choose to report, or comment on, that is provoking, and that is
the actions of the government who would be our ruler rather than our
servant.

Gary Hunt,
Outpost of Freedom


From bell@pantheon.yale.edu Tue Dec 10 09:10:00 PST 1996
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From: bell@pantheon.yale.edu (Peter Bell)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 14:23:41 GMT
Message-ID: <850227821$24820@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 78


 wrote:

> The mistakes and errors were primarily in the areas of judgement.  The
> Feds had never dealt with a messianic maniac like Koresh before.

Actually, I have to disagree with you.  Does the name Jim Jones ring a
bell?  Howsabout MOVE in Philly?  One criticism I've seen from Alexander
Cockburn writing in the Nation is that the FBI was relying on
psychological profilers associated with the Cult Awareness Network, as
well as their in-house people.  The in-house profile was ignored in
favor of the extremely hostile CAN-affiliated profile.  

CAN is so hostile and so dismissive of belief systems they disagree with
that they rejected the idea that the majority of the Davidians were in
fact strong in their religious beliefs and Koresh's interpretations of
Revelations, and predicted that a "nonlethal" assault would lead to
people fleeing Koresh.  The original profile, which warned of a *very*
ugly reaction to the final confrontation as being the likely outcome of
an assault by the forces of the Davidians' Antichrist on the compound,
and justifiable within the Davidians' belief system, was set aside.
Despite thousands of years of collective experience with millenarian
cults, and the recent problems at Jonestown and other standoffs
involving charismatic leaders.  
 
> Therefore, they used the same tactics that would have worked with the
> normal bank robber holding hostages. 

For which someone should be tried on criminal negligence charges, imo.
Specifically, whoever made the decision to ignore the profile which took
seriously the beliefs of Koresh's followers.  This was the critical
mistake which led to the deaths.  The strategy -- used successfully in
prior and subsequent standoffs -- to avoid this mistake is to find a
negotiator willing to try to learn the belief system of the people
involved, and argue from a basis of understanding, if not agreement.
The Feds moved from using a sympathetic negotiator who the Davidians
trusted to using a new one, partway through a protracted standoff with
an injured, possibly infected, possibly feverish millenarian -- and they
did this essentially as a 'turf battle' move.  They did not bring the
original negotiator back even after Koresh requested him.  

Am I defending the actions of the Davidians?  As essentially an insanity
defense, I suppose I am.  When you deal with someone who is insane, the
onus of responsible action is on the (allegedly) sane party.  (The
defense of the FBI, I believe, is that if they had drawn down, continued
negotiating slowly and let Koresh finish his exegesis, he would, on
finishing it, have destroyed the compound himself, his work on Earth
being complete.  But their primary defense came from Janet Reno, who has
a long history of using allegations of child abuse to advance her own
agenda when she was in Florida.  And this behavior resulted in some
pretty obscene miscarriages of justice -- Cockburn had a lot of
interesting things to say about her past which I read nowhere else when
she was appointed.)

One thing that we can be almost completely sure of is that in the next
ten years or so, there will be other millenarian cults walling
themselves in, expecting an assault from the legions of Satan during the
End Times.  I hope the FBI will be more careful in trusting 'cult
experts' in the future. 

> As for a cover up, other than
> something Linda THompson has cooked up, where is your data on that Hanson?

Well, I found it fascinating that rather than letting an independent
arson team go through the compound carefully, it was bulldozed on
"health" grounds.  An arson team might well have been able to get a good
look at the front doo, which the Feds have claimed the Davidians fired
through with a .50 cal gun and the Davidians claim the Feds opened fire
on.  If, in fact, the only evidence in that door was consistent with
handguns being fired into it, it would go a long way toward resolving
the debates here.  Even burned woods retains enough structural integrity
that a good arson squad can get a *lot* of information from it.
Bulldozing it will do a good job at preventing an investigation.
Obviously, if both weapons had been used, the debate would not be
resolvable post-hoc.

-Peter
bell@pantheon.yale.edu      


From mo10cav@aol.com Tue Dec 10 09:10:10 PST 1996
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Posted-Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:37:26 -0500
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Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 14:30:51 GMT
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Subject: Re: Terrorism?, or An Act of War? (was Patriots! Please mail/email this letter now! **)
Lines: 22


Gary Hunt argues OKC was justifiable "Act of War"---

A couple of observations:

1.  WHO DECLARED THE F--KING WAR?!?!?
If you believe Dennis Mahon, White Aryan Resistance (who had more than a
little to do with it) the war was "declared" by Bob Mathews back before he
was killed in the mid-Eighties.  Too bad they forgot to tell all the
mothers and fathers of those innocent kids in the daycare that there was a
war on, huh?

2.  If Gary Hunt is signing onto Mathews "Declaration or War" by this
wishy-washy moral equivalency argument, we thank him for announcing it to
the Constitutional Militias of the United States so that we can mark him
down in the OPFOR column and take appropriate measures.

3.  I see that Linda Thompson was not far off, Gary, in branding you an
agent provocateur.  My apologies to Linda for doubting her word in this
case.

-- Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR 


From octavia@worldnet.att.net Wed Dec 11 09:10:46 PST 1996
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From: Kaa Byington 
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 21:33:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 126


Peter Bell wrote:
> 
>  wrote:
> 
> > The mistakes and errors were primarily in the areas of judgement.  The
> > Feds had never dealt with a messianic maniac like Koresh before.
> 
> Actually, I have to disagree with you.  Does the name Jim Jones ring a
> bell?  Howsabout MOVE in Philly?  One criticism I've seen from Alexander
> Cockburn writing in the Nation is that the FBI was relying on
> psychological profilers associated with the Cult Awareness Network, as
> well as their in-house people.  The in-house profile was ignored in
> favor of the extremely hostile CAN-affiliated profile.
> 
> CAN is so hostile and so dismissive of belief systems they disagree with
> that they rejected the idea that the majority of the Davidians were in
> fact strong in their religious beliefs and Koresh's interpretations of
> Revelations, and predicted that a "nonlethal" assault would lead to
> people fleeing Koresh.  The original profile, which warned of a *very*
> ugly reaction to the final confrontation as being the likely outcome of
> an assault by the forces of the Davidians' Antichrist on the compound,
> and justifiable within the Davidians' belief system, was set aside.
> Despite thousands of years of collective experience with millenarian
> cults, and the recent problems at Jonestown and other standoffs
> involving charismatic leaders.
> 
> > Therefore, they used the same tactics that would have worked with the
> > normal bank robber holding hostages.
> 
> For which someone should be tried on criminal negligence charges, imo.
> Specifically, whoever made the decision to ignore the profile which took
> seriously the beliefs of Koresh's followers.  This was the critical
> mistake which led to the deaths.  The strategy -- used successfully in
> prior and subsequent standoffs -- to avoid this mistake is to find a
> negotiator willing to try to learn the belief system of the people
> involved, and argue from a basis of understanding, if not agreement.
> The Feds moved from using a sympathetic negotiator who the Davidians
> trusted to using a new one, partway through a protracted standoff with
> an injured, possibly infected, possibly feverish millenarian -- and they
> did this essentially as a 'turf battle' move.  They did not bring the
> original negotiator back even after Koresh requested him.
> 
> Am I defending the actions of the Davidians?  As essentially an insanity
> defense, I suppose I am.  When you deal with someone who is insane, the
> onus of responsible action is on the (allegedly) sane party.  (The
> defense of the FBI, I believe, is that if they had drawn down, continued
> negotiating slowly and let Koresh finish his exegesis, he would, on
> finishing it, have destroyed the compound himself, his work on Earth
> being complete. 

Maybe they forgot one other thing--a very common phenomenon--suicide by 
cop.  

Which brings up an additional question: if that was his intent, and it 
seems it was--he predicted all the BDs would die in a fire together, 
though 1995 was his target date--what does "society" do about it?  Don't 
we have a duty, both legal and moral to try to save at least those kids? 
Isn't that the ultimate in child abuse?  If they'd counted on a mass 
suicide, what should the FBI have done?


 But their primary defense came from Janet Reno, who has
> a long history of using allegations of child abuse to advance her own
> agenda when she was in Florida.  And this behavior resulted in some
> pretty obscene miscarriages of justice -- Cockburn had a lot of
> interesting things to say about her past which I read nowhere else when
> she was appointed.)

Perhaps Cockburn is being a bit unfair--there have been some very obscene 
miscarriages of justice all over the country in terms of child abuse 
cases.  
> 


Be that as it may, Reno also said several times that the FBI moved in 
when they did because of calls, chiefly from Linda Thompson, for people 
to grab their guns and come to the defense of the Branch Davidians. 
Though hardly anyone did,( I heard some ten or fifteen showed up)the FBI 
had no way of knowing how many armed crazies might be coming at them from 
behind.  


> One thing that we can be almost completely sure of is that in the next
> ten years or so, there will be other millenarian cults walling
> themselves in, expecting an assault from the legions of Satan during the
> End Times.  I hope the FBI will be more careful in trusting 'cult
> experts' in the future.

I think you're right.  

> 
> > As for a cover up, other than
> > something Linda THompson has cooked up, where is your data on that Hanson?
> 
> Well, I found it fascinating that rather than letting an independent
> arson team go through the compound carefully, it was bulldozed on
> "health" grounds.  An arson team might well have been able to get a good
> look at the front doo, which the Feds have claimed the Davidians fired
> through with a .50 cal gun and the Davidians claim the Feds opened fire
> on.  If, in fact, the only evidence in that door was consistent with
> handguns being fired into it, it would go a long way toward resolving
> the debates here.  Even burned woods retains enough structural integrity
> that a good arson squad can get a *lot* of information from it.
> Bulldozing it will do a good job at preventing an investigation.
> Obviously, if both weapons had been used, the debate would not be
> resolvable post-hoc.

The evidence given at the Senate Hearings by the arson experts was pretty 
compelling, door or no door.  Clyde Whatsis, the Branch Davidian who 
testified at the hearings never explained why charcoal fire starter was 
found all over the sleeves of his coat--the one he was wearing when he 
ran out of the flaming building.   For instance. 

> 
> -Peter
> bell@pantheon.yale.edu

I think what everyone tends to forget about this is that had the FBI 
intended to burn that compound down with everyone in it, they certainly 
wouldn't have chosen to do it on live worldwide television, with flame 
throwing tanks.  I'm sure they could have found a much subtler way to do 
it in the dark of night while the media slept.  Wouldn't have taken 
much--the place was a firetrap.




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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 15:03:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 153


Kaa Byington wrote:
> 
> Peter Bell wrote:
> >
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > The mistakes and errors were primarily in the areas of judgement.  The
> > > Feds had never dealt with a messianic maniac like Koresh before.
> >
> > Actually, I have to disagree with you.  Does the name Jim Jones ring a
> > bell?  Howsabout MOVE in Philly?  One criticism I've seen from Alexander
> > Cockburn writing in the Nation is that the FBI was relying on
> > psychological profilers associated with the Cult Awareness Network, as
> > well as their in-house people.  The in-house profile was ignored in
> > favor of the extremely hostile CAN-affiliated profile.
> >
> > CAN is so hostile and so dismissive of belief systems they disagree with
> > that they rejected the idea that the majority of the Davidians were in
> > fact strong in their religious beliefs and Koresh's interpretations of
> > Revelations, and predicted that a "nonlethal" assault would lead to
> > people fleeing Koresh.  The original profile, which warned of a *very*
> > ugly reaction to the final confrontation as being the likely outcome of
> > an assault by the forces of the Davidians' Antichrist on the compound,
> > and justifiable within the Davidians' belief system, was set aside.
> > Despite thousands of years of collective experience with millenarian
> > cults, and the recent problems at Jonestown and other standoffs
> > involving charismatic leaders.
> >
> > > Therefore, they used the same tactics that would have worked with the
> > > normal bank robber holding hostages.
> >
> > For which someone should be tried on criminal negligence charges, imo.
> > Specifically, whoever made the decision to ignore the profile which took
> > seriously the beliefs of Koresh's followers.  This was the critical
> > mistake which led to the deaths.  The strategy -- used successfully in
> > prior and subsequent standoffs -- to avoid this mistake is to find a
> > negotiator willing to try to learn the belief system of the people
> > involved, and argue from a basis of understanding, if not agreement.
> > The Feds moved from using a sympathetic negotiator who the Davidians
> > trusted to using a new one, partway through a protracted standoff with
> > an injured, possibly infected, possibly feverish millenarian -- and they
> > did this essentially as a 'turf battle' move.  They did not bring the
> > original negotiator back even after Koresh requested him.
> >
> > Am I defending the actions of the Davidians?  As essentially an insanity
> > defense, I suppose I am.  When you deal with someone who is insane, the
> > onus of responsible action is on the (allegedly) sane party.  (The
> > defense of the FBI, I believe, is that if they had drawn down, continued
> > negotiating slowly and let Koresh finish his exegesis, he would, on
> > finishing it, have destroyed the compound himself, his work on Earth
> > being complete.
> 
> Maybe they forgot one other thing--a very common phenomenon--suicide by
> cop.
> 
> Which brings up an additional question: if that was his intent, and it
> seems it was--he predicted all the BDs would die in a fire together,
> though 1995 was his target date--what does "society" do about it?  Don't
> we have a duty, both legal and moral to try to save at least those kids?
> Isn't that the ultimate in child abuse?  If they'd counted on a mass
> suicide, what should the FBI have done?
> 
>  But their primary defense came from Janet Reno, who has
> > a long history of using allegations of child abuse to advance her own
> > agenda when she was in Florida.  And this behavior resulted in some
> > pretty obscene miscarriages of justice -- Cockburn had a lot of
> > interesting things to say about her past which I read nowhere else when
> > she was appointed.)
> 
> Perhaps Cockburn is being a bit unfair--there have been some very obscene
> miscarriages of justice all over the country in terms of child abuse
> cases.
> >
> 
> Be that as it may, Reno also said several times that the FBI moved in
> when they did because of calls, chiefly from Linda Thompson, for people
> to grab their guns and come to the defense of the Branch Davidians.
> Though hardly anyone did,( I heard some ten or fifteen showed up)the FBI
> had no way of knowing how many armed crazies might be coming at them from
> behind.
> 
> > One thing that we can be almost completely sure of is that in the next
> > ten years or so, there will be other millenarian cults walling
> > themselves in, expecting an assault from the legions of Satan during the
> > End Times.  I hope the FBI will be more careful in trusting 'cult
> > experts' in the future.
> 
> I think you're right.
> 
> >
> > > As for a cover up, other than
> > > something Linda THompson has cooked up, where is your data on that Hanson?



Well we can start with the first hearings on Waco that almost everyone
recognizes as a joke. Where is this person who supposedly told Janet
Reno there was child abuse going on at the BDs Church. She swears
someone told her this, everyone else denies it. Are you then postulating
that Janet is lying. Sounds like a coverup to me. Don't forget this was
her main reason for tanking and torching the place.

> >
> > Well, I found it fascinating that rather than letting an independent
> > arson team go through the compound carefully, it was bulldozed on
> > "health" grounds.  An arson team might well have been able to get a good
> > look at the front doo, which the Feds have claimed the Davidians fired
> > through with a .50 cal gun and the Davidians claim the Feds opened fire
> > on.  If, in fact, the only evidence in that door was consistent with
> > handguns being fired into it, it would go a long way toward resolving
> > the debates here.  Even burned woods retains enough structural integrity
> > that a good arson squad can get a *lot* of information from it.
> > Bulldozing it will do a good job at preventing an investigation.
> > Obviously, if both weapons had been used, the debate would not be
> > resolvable post-hoc.
> 
> The evidence given at the Senate Hearings by the arson experts was pretty
> compelling, door or no door.  Clyde Whatsis, the Branch Davidian who
> testified at the hearings never explained why charcoal fire starter was
> found all over the sleeves of his coat--the one he was wearing when he
> ran out of the flaming building.   For instance.

Kaa, this is simple untrue, Clive Doyle did offer an explanation of
sorts. He said (and I saw it myself) that he smokes, he does not use the
common variety butane lighter having the older type of lighter that
require some lighter fluid to be added periodically (remember zippo
lighter fluid) Since they were confined for fifty one days and water was
rationed some of the lighter fluid may have gotten on the shirt sleeves
and he was unable to clean the shirt. The amount I believe was very
small, and I would add they were using camp stoves to cook, these also
have to have fuel added periodically.

As for the compelling testimony at least one aspect of it was in direct
contradition to the manufacturers literature published well before the
Waco tragedy. The Government expert said the CS gas would have had the
tendency to extinguish a fire, not start one. But the manufacturers
literature states that above certain concentration levels the gas
becomes volatile. Who do you believe? The answer is obviuos.
> 
> >
> > -Peter
> > bell@pantheon.yale.edu
> 
> I think what everyone tends to forget about this is that had the FBI
> intended to burn that compound down with everyone in it, they certainly
> wouldn't have chosen to do it on live worldwide television, with flame
> throwing tanks.  I'm sure they could have found a much subtler way to do
> it in the dark of night while the media slept.  Wouldn't have taken
> much--the place was a firetrap.





From dkuehne@erols.com Thu Dec 12 06:36:13 PST 1996
Article: 352194 of talk.politics.guns
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From: Dave Kuehne 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Not What They Said On The News, Part 8
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 02:46:21 -0500
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Not What They Said On The News, Part 8

The following is excerpted from the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum.
Entire html text of the Museum currently available at
home.overthe.net/pub/showtime/wm1-1f01.zip. Excerpted by
Carol Valentine from
http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum Images omitted.


[Note to readers:  Many of the official autopsy reports of the Branch
Davidians, autopsy photographs, and official diagrams showing the
locations of body recoveries are available for viewing at the Waco
Holocaust Electronic Museum website.  Unfortunately, this
documentation cannot be included in a text excerpt.]

                         The Dead Can Speak

The dead can speak. Much can be learned from examination of the
corpse. For this purpose the Museum has obtained a set of the
autopsy reports and photographs. They bear remarkable evidence,
much of it yet to be analyzed.

At the center of the public opinion storm around Waco is the fate
of the mothers and children whose remains were found in the
pantry/concrete room that formed the foundation of the four-story
residential tower (see US News & World Report, May 3, 1993, where
it is erroneously labeled "Cinder-block room", Treasury Report, pg.
39, Linda Thompson photo, and US News & World Report, May 3, 1993).
Before the fire of April 19, this room received no attention. After
the fire, it was invariably called the "bunker," the term that had
hitherto been reserved for the tornado shelters.

It is said that the mothers and children, equipped with gas masks,
wet blankets and sleeping bags, sought shelter there from the CS
tear gas; instead of being sheltered, they died when the structure
collapsed on them.

But the evidence shows that this story was invented. Photographs
show the concrete room did not collapse. The evidence suggests that
the mothers and children died elsewhere under different conditions,
and the bodies were brought into the concrete room after death.

The bodies in this room were variously charred beyond recognition
or slightly charred; some were severely decomposed, some only
moderately; some dismembered and badly mutilated, others were
whole. The people are said to have died variously of smoke
inhalation, suffocation, blunt force trauma, gun shot wounds, or
burns.

Joseph Martinez (Mt. Carmel Doe 52) and Crystal Martinez (Mt.
Carmel Doe 57) are recognizable as human forms. Their Autopsy
Reports indicate that the remains were only moderately decomposed,
and suffered little charring.

But the remains of Katherine Andrade (Mt. Carmel Doe 30) and John
McBean (Mt. Carmel Doe 32) were virtually incinerated. This is an
unexpected effect, given that there is little to burn in a concrete
room, and given that the fire lasted only 40 minutes. Some people
explain the charring of the bodies by suggesting that the room was
a storehouse for ammunition, and the ammunition caught fire. The
plausibility of this explanation will be examined in due course.

Some corpses were so decomposed that the connective tissue between
the bones had disintegrated, causing the bodies to fall apart (the
process is called "disarticulation.") Other corpses were so
decomposed that the internal organs were unrecognizable, had turned
to mush, or were liquefied. From a review of professional
literature, we will see that this degree of decomposition is
usually effected over a long period of time.

Regarding these cases, the rational person is left with a limited
number of explanations:

  1. The Autopsy Reports are fictitious
  2. Some of the deaths occurred before April 19, 1993 (the date of
the fire)
  3. The severely decomposed remains are not those of Branch
Davidians
  4. A means was used for accelerating the decomposition of some of
these remains, making any ordinary estimation of the time of
death meaningless.

Many of the bodies in the concrete room/pantry appear to have been
torn apart, as in the case of Melissa Morrison (Mt. Carmel Doe 74).
Only Melissa's lower legs were found.

In one case, the body parts of eleven (11) people were reformed
into an agglutinated mass, as if kneaded together under the tracks
of a tank or compacted in a press. Several photographs are on
exhibit--photos were obviously taken after the mass had been
sectioned off. (Mt. Carmel Doe 64 A picture, Mt. Carmel Doe 64 B
picture, Mt. Carmel Doe 64 C picture, and Mt. Carmel Doe 64 D
picture). Mt. Carmel Doe 64 E picture).

The human beings said to be represented by this commingled mass:

  1. Koresh's wife Rachel,
  2. Koresh's son, Cyrus,
  3. Koresh's daughter, Star,
  4. Koresh's daughter, Bobbie Lane;
  5. Lorraine Sylvia,
  6. Lorraine Sylvia's daughter, Rachel,
  7. Lorraine Sylvia's daughter, Hollywood,
  8. Paiges Gent (a baby),
  9. an unidentified infant,
 10. an unidentified toddler, and
 11. an unidentified child.

Even more remarkably, the deceased, found compacted like this, were
said to have died variously of smoke inhalation, suffocation, and
gunshot wound. It is obvious that these people died in different
environments, and their remains gathered together after death and
pressed into mounds. No series of circumstances known so far could
have this effect.

Next: Excerpt 9, What Did They Do to the Bodies?

http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
or http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
SkyWriter@Public-Action.com
Postal Address: Carol A. Valentine, Public Action, Inc., PO Box
10933, Burke, VA 22009

Copyright 1996 by Carol A. Valentine, on loan to Public Action,
Inc. All commercial rights are reserved. Full statement of terms
and conditions for copying and redistribution is available in the
Museum Library. "Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum," "SkyWriter,"
and the skywriting logo are trademarks of Public Action Inc.



Carol A. Valentine
President
Public Action, Inc.

________________________________________________

TERRORISM:  The use of terror, violence, and intimidation to achieve an end.
A system of government that uses terror to rule. (American Heritage
Dictionary, 1976)

Visit the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum
http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
http://206.55.8.10/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum    |

NOW-- WHO ARE THE *REAL* TERRORISTS???

________________________________________________




From bell@pantheon.yale.edu Fri Dec 13 06:22:26 PST 1996
Article: 48824 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (c7d7ad2b7008843594a97b9e336fd01a)
From: bell@pantheon.yale.edu (Peter Bell)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 0:48:30 GMT
Message-ID: <850438110$7396@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 106


(I apologize for not quoting the References: line;  this article never made it
to our server, so I'm grabbing the article from Dejanews;  I don't want to see
how well DejaNews' posting service interacts with the moderation on the group)

in article <850253585$28451@atype.com>, Kaa Byington
 writes:

>Which brings up an additional question: if that was his intent, and it 
>seems it was--he predicted all the BDs would die in a fire together, 
>though 1995 was his target date--what does "society" do about it?  Don't 
>we have a duty, both legal and moral to try to save at least those kids? 
>Isn't that the ultimate in child abuse?  If they'd counted on a mass 
>suicide, what should the FBI have done?

They should have kept negotiating using a negotiating team which took the
Davidians' beliefs seriously enough to try arguing from a basis of
understanding.  Given that Koresh was ahead of his own schedule, had been
wounded (apparently) in the initial assault, and was talking with the first
team, and releasing some people, they were making progress.  

Koresh was not universally hostile to law enforcement.  He'd cooperated, for
instance, with the local sheriff's department when they had earlier asked for
access to the compound.  He'd also appeared in court at one point in a dispute
with another religious group, I believe.  

A point Molly Ivins once made about the Davidians is that while they had lots
of long guns with them, they also had lots of adult US citizens.  She opined,
rather dryly, that characterizing them as "heavily armed" might be true if
they'd been located in, say, Connecticut, but they were probably below the
state average for arms/adult for rural Texas.  

>>Peter Bell wrote:
>> But their primary defense came from Janet Reno, who has
>> a long history of using allegations of child abuse to advance her own
>> agenda when she was in Florida.  And this behavior resulted in some
>> pretty obscene miscarriages of justice -- Cockburn had a lot of
>> interesting things to say about her past which I read nowhere else when
>> she was appointed.)
>
>Perhaps Cockburn is being a bit unfair--there have been some very obscene 
>miscarriages of justice all over the country in terms of child abuse 
>cases.  

If you have access to Nexis, you should try a search for Cockburn and Janet
Reno.  From memory, I remember one prosecution Reno was involved in which had
accusations of truly spectacularly improbable ritual satanic abuse and in
which the defendant was not an English speaker or a citizen.  A translator was
provided for the defendant only at the discretion of the prosecution, and Reno
held the jury's return with the verdict up for several hours so that she could
be present for the reading of the verdict.  When the verdict came back, it was
a not guilty verdict, and Reno was unable to score the Media Points she'd
wanted.  Her record in the politicization of these cases is quite outstanding.

>Be that as it may, Reno also said several times that the FBI moved in 
>when they did because of calls, chiefly from Linda Thompson, for people 
>to grab their guns and come to the defense of the Branch Davidians. 
>Though hardly anyone did,( I heard some ten or fifteen showed up)the FBI 
>had no way of knowing how many armed crazies might be coming at them from 
>behind.  

Please.  The Feds in Waco couldn't tell when people were turning up?  When
they were so effectively controlling media access to their perimeter?  Her
post-hoc rationale is interesting, but she mentioned not a word of it at the
time.  

>> Well, I found it fascinating that rather than letting an independent
>> arson team go through the compound carefully, it was bulldozed on
>> "health" grounds.  An arson team might well have been able to get a good
>> look at the front doo, which the Feds have claimed the Davidians fired
>> through with a .50 cal gun and the Davidians claim the Feds opened fire
>> on.  

>The evidence given at the Senate Hearings by the arson experts was pretty 
>compelling, door or no door.  Clyde Whatsis, the Branch Davidian who 
>testified at the hearings never explained why charcoal fire starter was 
>found all over the sleeves of his coat--the one he was wearing when he 
>ran out of the flaming building.   For instance. 

Kaa, this misses my point *entirely.*  What a forensic arson team could have
established was who fired the initial shots.  I don't doubt that the Davidians
started the fire themselves.  In addition to being consistent with the pattern
of spread of the fire, it is consistent with their theology -- which was not,
unfortunately, taken seriously at the conclusion of the standoff.  

The main question which will forever be unanswerable -- unless the Feds had a
video camera running while they knocked on the door, and if they did, they're
not admitting it -- is who initiated the violence which led to the standoff,
and how that violence escalated.  If the Feds did fire the first rounds, the
prosecutions of some of the Davidians would have been more unsuccessful than
they were.   

>I think what everyone tends to forget about this is that had the FBI 
>intended to burn that compound down with everyone in it, they certainly 
>wouldn't have chosen to do it on live worldwide television, with flame 
>throwing tanks.  

Yes, the claims of flame-throwing tanks are garbage.  However, if you read my
post carefully, you'll notice I never mentioned them.  My points are entirely
with reference to a millenarian sect percieving itself to be under assault,
the extent to which that perception might have been accurate during the
initial assault, might have been reinforced by subsequent actions, and might
have been vindicated to an extent if evidence hadn't been destroyed.

-Peter
bell@pantheon.yale.edu   


From octavia@worldnet.att.net Fri Dec 13 15:44:18 PST 1996
Article: 48857 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 6:03:26 GMT
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Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 163


Peter Bell wrote:
> 
>
> in article <850253585$28451@atype.com>, Kaa Byington
>  writes:
> 
> >Which brings up an additional question: if that was his intent, and it
> >seems it was--he predicted all the BDs would die in a fire together,
> >though 1995 was his target date--what does "society" do about it?  Don't
> >we have a duty, both legal and moral to try to save at least those kids?
> >Isn't that the ultimate in child abuse?  If they'd counted on a mass
> >suicide, what should the FBI have done?
> 
> They should have kept negotiating using a negotiating team which took the
> Davidians' beliefs seriously enough to try arguing from a basis of
> understanding.  Given that Koresh was ahead of his own schedule, had been
> wounded (apparently) in the initial assault, and was talking with the first
> team, and releasing some people, they were making progress.
>Since it was obvious that Koresh was stalling, and the releases had 
stopped--how long do you let it go on?  100 days?  1000 days?  
 
> Koresh was not universally hostile to law enforcement.  He'd cooperated, for
> instance, with the local sheriff's department when they had earlier asked for
> access to the compound.

Sure: I presume that was to let the social worker in.  Give him a couple 
of days warning. Clean the place up. Think that's what ATF should have 
done?  Made an appointment two or three days later?

  He'd also appeared in court at one point in a dispute
> with another religious group, I believe. 

 No, it was a dispute over who would be the new leader of the cult--the 
woman who had been the Messiah had died--of old age.  Koresh had been her 
lover--this guy was a stud for God--and claimed that she'd given him the 
mantle.  Her husband disagreed, and challenged Koresh to a contest to see 
who could raise her from the dead.  This lead to a shootout between 
Koresh and the husband, with the husband apparently being the instigator. 
Koresh filed charges, but the guy never went to trial--too crazy to be 
tried.  He's in a mental hospital.  It cleared the way for Koresh to take 
over, however.  Which is why he cooperated with the Sheriff. 

> 
> A point Molly Ivins once made about the Davidians is that while they had lots
> of long guns with them, they also had lots of adult US citizens.  She opined,
> rather dryly, that characterizing them as "heavily armed" might be true if
> they'd been located in, say, Connecticut, but they were probably below the
> state average for arms/adult for rural Texas.

Much as I love Molly Ivins, and I do, it is unusual for a church of any 
kind to be stockpiling auatomatic weapons, even in Texas.  After all, 
they weren't hunting, they weren't shooting varmints, and they weren't 
big on skeet shooting.  
> 
> >>Peter Bell wrote:
> >> But their primary defense came from Janet Reno, who has
> >> a long history of using allegations of child abuse to advance her own
> >> agenda when she was in Florida.  And this behavior resulted in some
> >> pretty obscene miscarriages of justice -- Cockburn had a lot of
> >> interesting things to say about her past which I read nowhere else when
> >> she was appointed.)
> >
> >Perhaps Cockburn is being a bit unfair--there have been some very obscene
> >miscarriages of justice all over the country in terms of child abuse
> >cases.
> 
> If you have access to Nexis, you should try a search for Cockburn and Janet
> Reno.  From memory, I remember one prosecution Reno was involved in which had
> accusations of truly spectacularly improbable ritual satanic abuse and in
> which the defendant was not an English speaker or a citizen.  A translator was
> provided for the defendant only at the discretion of the prosecution, and Reno
> held the jury's return with the verdict up for several hours so that she could
> be present for the reading of the verdict.  When the verdict came back, it was
> a not guilty verdict, and Reno was unable to score the Media Points she'd
> wanted. 

Don't have access to Lexis-Nexis, but that sounds rather strange to me. 
I've been on juries, and if a prosecutor held up the verdict for two 
hours,, the judge would have had him/her up for contempt of court quicker 
than you could say "But your honor"  Good thing it was a not guilty, too, 
because a guiltly verdict would have been reversed on appeal on that 
translator thing. 

 Her record in the politicization of these cases is quite outstanding.

> 
> >Be that as it may, Reno also said several times that the FBI moved in
> >when they did because of calls, chiefly from Linda Thompson, for people
> >to grab their guns and come to the defense of the Branch Davidians.
> >Though hardly anyone did,( I heard some ten or fifteen showed up)the FBI
> >had no way of knowing how many armed crazies might be coming at them from
> >behind.
> 
> Please.  The Feds in Waco couldn't tell when people were turning up?  When
> they were so effectively controlling media access to their perimeter?  


they weren't turning up in the perimeter--though come to think of it, 
some guy did get in, as I recall.  Where they were turning up was at the 
backs of the FBI.  I'm not much on military tactics, but I don't think it 
makes it any easier in a siege situation where the populace behind you is 
 taking pot shots. 

Her
> post-hoc rationale is interesting, but she mentioned not a word of it at the
> time.

Yes, she did.  I remember it. 

> 
> >> Well, I found it fascinating that rather than letting an independent
> >> arson team go through the compound carefully, it was bulldozed on
> >> "health" grounds.  An arson team might well have been able to get a good
> >> look at the front doo, which the Feds have claimed the Davidians fired
> >> through with a .50 cal gun and the Davidians claim the Feds opened fire
> >> on.
> 
> >The evidence given at the Senate Hearings by the arson experts was pretty
> >compelling, door or no door.  Clyde Whatsis, the Branch Davidian who
> >testified at the hearings never explained why charcoal fire starter was
> >found all over the sleeves of his coat--the one he was wearing when he
> >ran out of the flaming building.   For instance.
> 
> Kaa, this misses my point *entirely.*

Indeed, I did.  My apologies.

  What a forensic arson team could have
> established was who fired the initial shots.  I don't doubt that the Davidians
> started the fire themselves.  In addition to being consistent with the pattern
> of spread of the fire, it is consistent with their theology -- which was not,
> unfortunately, taken seriously at the conclusion of the standoff.
> 
> The main question which will forever be unanswerable -- unless the Feds had a
> video camera running while they knocked on the door, and if they did, they're
> not admitting it -- is who initiated the violence which led to the standoff,
> and how that violence escalated.  If the Feds did fire the first rounds, the
> prosecutions of some of the Davidians would have been more unsuccessful than
> they were.

I see.  Just curious.  If the door were found and it had bullet holes in 
it from both sides, how could it show who shot first?  

> 
> >I think what everyone tends to forget about this is that had the FBI
> >intended to burn that compound down with everyone in it, they certainly
> >wouldn't have chosen to do it on live worldwide television, with flame
> >throwing tanks.
> 
> Yes, the claims of flame-throwing tanks are garbage.  However, if you read my
> post carefully, you'll notice I never mentioned them.  My points are entirely
> with reference to a millenarian sect percieving itself to be under assault,
> the extent to which that perception might have been accurate during the
> initial assault, might have been reinforced by subsequent actions, and might
> have been vindicated to an extent if evidence hadn't been destroyed.

And then again, they might not. 


My statement was aimed at previous posters, not you.  Not that it woudld 
change any minds. . .



From rarpol@aol.com Sun Dec 15 13:21:04 PST 1996
Article: 49020 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (69af48d861f6ee1f9d64a5a73b3dc204)
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From: rarpol@aol.com
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Posted-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 18:25:49 -0500
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Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 23:35:19 GMT
Message-ID: <850606519$14046@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 66


In article <850520041$10612@atype.com>, Hanson  writes:

>rarpol@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In article <850346388$3054@atype.com>, Hanson  writes:
>> 
>> >rarpol@aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In article <850227821$24820@atype.com>, bell@pantheon.yale.edu
(Peter
>> >> Bell) writes:
>> >>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> The mistakes and errors were primarily in the areas of judgement.
>> The
>> >> >> Feds had never dealt with a messianic maniac like Koresh before.
>> >> >
>> >> >Actually, I have to disagree with you.  Does the name Jim Jones
ring a
>> >> >bell?  Howsabout MOVE in Philly?  One criticism I've seen from
>> Alexander
>> >> >Cockburn writing in the Nation is that the FBI was relying on
>> >> >psychological profilers associated with the Cult Awareness Network,
as
>> >> >well as their in-house people.  The in-house profile was ignored in
>> >> >favor of the extremely hostile CAN-affiliated profile.
>> >>
>> >> You maybe correct.  However, the FBI did not negotiate in the Jim
Jones
>> >> business and that situation was completely different from Waco.  The
>> MOVE
>> >> affair in 1985 I am not sure what Federal involvment there was in
that.
>> >>
>> >> Randy Ragsdale (rarpol@aol.com)
>> >
>> >
>> >Negotiate all you want there was no reason to tank and torch a church
>> >full of women and children.
>> 
>> Gee, the Feds didn't "torch anybody".  Do you have conclusive proof
that
>> the Feds did?  Those tapes you are incapable of hearing clearly
indicate
>> the BDs decided to set fires around the compound to fulfill Koresh's
>> insane prophesy.
>
>
>I guess, Randy, we just don't agree on this issue. Will you at least 
>acknowledge that the tanks killed some of the women and children.

Not until I see conclusive proof.  After viewing Linda Thompson's Waco
tapes and other such matter I am highly skeptical of organizations that
use Waco as a means for propaganda.  You can see my point.  

>Hanson
>
>



Randy Ragsdale (rarpol@aol.com)




From Don't@shadow.cyberdesic.com Sun Dec 15 13:21:09 PST 1996
Article: 49044 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 96 4:48:36 GMT
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Message-ID: <850625316$15047@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 100


rarpol@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In article <850520041$10612@atype.com>, Hanson  writes:
> 
> >rarpol@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <850346388$3054@atype.com>, Hanson  writes:
> >>
> >> >rarpol@aol.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> In article <850227821$24820@atype.com>, bell@pantheon.yale.edu
> (Peter
> >> >> Bell) writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> The mistakes and errors were primarily in the areas of judgement.
> >> The
> >> >> >> Feds had never dealt with a messianic maniac like Koresh before.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Actually, I have to disagree with you.  Does the name Jim Jones
> ring a
> >> >> >bell?  Howsabout MOVE in Philly?  One criticism I've seen from
> >> Alexander
> >> >> >Cockburn writing in the Nation is that the FBI was relying on
> >> >> >psychological profilers associated with the Cult Awareness Network,
> as
> >> >> >well as their in-house people.  The in-house profile was ignored in
> >> >> >favor of the extremely hostile CAN-affiliated profile.
> >> >>
> >> >> You maybe correct.  However, the FBI did not negotiate in the Jim
> Jones
> >> >> business and that situation was completely different from Waco.  The
> >> MOVE
> >> >> affair in 1985 I am not sure what Federal involvment there was in
> that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Randy Ragsdale (rarpol@aol.com)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Negotiate all you want there was no reason to tank and torch a church
> >> >full of women and children.
> >>
> >> Gee, the Feds didn't "torch anybody".  Do you have conclusive proof
> that
> >> the Feds did?  Those tapes you are incapable of hearing clearly
> indicate
> >> the BDs decided to set fires around the compound to fulfill Koresh's
> >> insane prophesy.
> >
> >
> >I guess, Randy, we just don't agree on this issue. Will you at least
> >acknowledge that the tanks killed some of the women and children.
> 
> Not until I see conclusive proof.  After viewing Linda Thompson's Waco
> tapes and other such matter I am highly skeptical of organizations that
> use Waco as a means for propaganda.  You can see my point.
> 
> >Hanson
> >
> >
> 
> Randy Ragsdale (rarpol@aol.com)


Read the Ashes of Waco, Randy . It is well written and balanced, I'm
sure you would like it. It does however expose some of the more
disturbing aspects of this tragedy. Many of the women and children were
killed by blunt force trauma. Widely reported as The BDs beating each
other to death. In reality it was chunks of concrete knocked onto the
women and children by the tanks. As for the fire. The BDs had been under
a great deal of pressure for 51 days due to the psychological warfare
>from  the FBI. The day inquestion they had been exposed to heavy
concentrations of CS gas (forbidden in war by the Geneva convention).
They in all likelyhood could not have coordinated a precise starting of
three fires in three locations, that were under the control of the FBI.
By elimination, that leaves the FBI.

By the way I have had many discussions with people who take the tack
that if you are against what the government did then you must support
the BDs and all their action. Some even have told me that I must
therefore beleive in child molestation. I do not excuse the BDs actions.
Nor will I excuse the actions of the Feds.  The evidence that the fire
started within seconds of each other in disparate locations in the
complex only points to the Fed. Not the BDs. The fact that they are
lying about knowing there might be a fire only condemns them further. If
they knew there was going to be a fire they needed to stop. 

I went back and reviewed some news stories in the Dallas Morning news.
On the 21st Sessions was saying they had no idea that there would be a
fire. While in the next story agents were saying just the opposite. But
ricks in another article that day was saying he was stunned, that he
never suspected a fire. But they put the burn units on stand by, but did
not notify the local fire depts. They are lying Randy Plain and simple.


Hanson




From rarpol@aol.com Mon Dec 16 07:42:15 PST 1996
Article: 49072 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (ba2ee944a8ae6eb918c6f1684c784e26)
References: <850625316$15047@atype.com>
From: rarpol@aol.com
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Posted-Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 16:23:16 -0500
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 96 21:33:20 GMT
Message-ID: <850685600$17466@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Spook Alert: Ok City was Divine Justice, plain and simple
Lines: 78


In article <850625316$15047@atype.com>, Hanson  writes:


>> >
>> >I guess, Randy, we just don't agree on this issue. Will you at least
>> >acknowledge that the tanks killed some of the women and children.
>> 
>> Not until I see conclusive proof.  After viewing Linda Thompson's Waco
>> tapes and other such matter I am highly skeptical of organizations that
>> use Waco as a means for propaganda.  You can see my point.
>> 
>> >Hanson
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> Randy Ragsdale (rarpol@aol.com)
>
>
>Read the Ashes of Waco, Randy . It is well written and balanced, I'm
>sure you would like it. It does however expose some of the more
>disturbing aspects of this tragedy. Many of the women and children were
>killed by blunt force trauma. Widely reported as The BDs beating each
>other to death. In reality it was chunks of concrete knocked onto the
>women and children by the tanks. As for the fire. The BDs had been under
>a great deal of pressure for 51 days due to the psychological warfare
>from the FBI. The day inquestion they had been exposed to heavy
>concentrations of CS gas (forbidden in war by the Geneva convention).
>They in all likelyhood could not have coordinated a precise starting of
>three fires in three locations, that were under the control of the FBI.
>By elimination, that leaves the FBI.

Then how do you account for the tapes that clearly indicate that the BDs
were starting the fires?   I haven't read that book, but will do so in the
near future.  However, even if you are correct, and that is still to be
determined, the BDs are still responsible since they refused to come out. 


>By the way I have had many discussions with people who take the tack
>that if you are against what the government did then you must support
>the BDs and all their action. Some even have told me that I must
>therefore beleive in child molestation. I do not excuse the BDs actions.
>Nor will I excuse the actions of the Feds.  The evidence that the fire
>started within seconds of each other in disparate locations in the
>complex only points to the Fed. Not the BDs. The fact that they are
>lying about knowing there might be a fire only condemns them further. If
>they knew there was going to be a fire they needed to stop. 

How do you come to that conclusion? Are there pictures or film or
testimony that state that the Feds set the fires?  You seem to take the
word of the BDs at face value but not that of the authorities, this
indicates a prejudice against whatever the government says about Waco.  

>I went back and reviewed some news stories in the Dallas Morning news.
>On the 21st Sessions was saying they had no idea that there would be a
>fire. While in the next story agents were saying just the opposite. But
>ricks in another article that day was saying he was stunned, that he
>never suspected a fire. But they put the burn units on stand by, but did
>not notify the local fire depts. They are lying Randy Plain and simple.

Remember one thing about any news story on TV, radio or the newspapers;
the initial reports are often wrong or simply inaccurate.  I have become
quite distrustful of early news reporting from my own experiences. 
Remember also that one of the tragedies of Waco concerns the FBI's own
command structure that was often at odds with itself over strategy.  Also,
remember this was a very new situation for the FBI to begin with.

>
>Hanson
>
>
>



Randy Ragsdale (rarpol@aol.com)




From glc1173@aol.com Mon Dec 16 07:42:19 PST 1996
Article: 49101 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (e3dfbdee615bf8c91fcecfedcc4e87fe)
From: glc1173@aol.com (GLC1173)
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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 3:03:11 GMT
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Subject: Linda Thompson: still active or a dropout?
Lines: 4


   Is Linda Thompson still active, or did she just quit once she was no
longer the only militia leader?  What is she doing now?  
   Were her AEN echoes ever replaced?  


From johannes@ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 16 22:57:25 PST 1996
Article: 49131 of misc.activism.militia
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From: johannes@ix.netcom.com (John C. Stephens III)
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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 9:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <850728783$19265@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Linda Thompson: still active or a dropout?
Lines: 12


In <850705391$18306@atype.com> glc1173@aol.com (GLC1173) writes: 
>
>
>   Is Linda Thompson still active, or did she just quit once she was
no
>longer the only militia leader?  What is she doing now?  
>   Were her AEN echoes ever replaced?  

And I STILL want to know why Dr. Pitcavage has the hots for her!

John


From mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Tue Dec 17 07:47:52 PST 1996
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From: mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark T Pitcavage)
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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 15:18:12 GMT
Message-ID: <850749492$20053@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Linda Thompson: still active or a dropout?
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In article <850728783$19265@atype.com>,
John C. Stephens III  wrote:
>
>In <850705391$18306@atype.com> glc1173@aol.com (GLC1173) writes:
>>
>>
>>   Is Linda Thompson still active, or did she just quit once she was
>no
>>longer the only militia leader?  What is she doing now?
>>   Were her AEN echoes ever replaced?
>
>And I STILL want to know why Dr. Pitcavage has the hots for her!
>
>John

Bottom Line:  Black Helicopter Mile High Club.


From octavia@worldnet.att.net Wed Dec 18 09:11:47 PST 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 96 20:18:33 GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win16; I)
Message-ID: <850767513$21190@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Linda Thompson: still active or a dropout?
Lines: 23


John C. Stephens III wrote:
> 
> In <850705391$18306@atype.com> glc1173@aol.com (GLC1173) writes:
> >
> >
> >   Is Linda Thompson still active, or did she just quit once she was
> no
> >longer the only militia leader?  What is she doing now?
> >   Were her AEN echoes ever replaced?
> 
> And I STILL want to know why Dr. Pitcavage has the hots for her!
> 
> John

She's still around, but evidently marginalized.  I have six e-mail 
messages from her, accusing me of being someone else--I can't fool her, 
she says.  She is angry because I said in a message on m.a.m. that an 
obviously phony document was a "Linda Thompson special."  She never did 
tell me who I really was, unfortunately.  It would have been interesting 
to find out.  I expect this message will generate more e-mail.  Sigh.

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