From cswiger@westco.net Thu Jan  2 19:10:46 PST 1997
Article: 93388 of soc.culture.german
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: More Holocaust Lies
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 00:34:01 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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All to often, when the fables of Holocaust mythologists are exposed
for all the world to see, the mythmakers retreat with embarassment
into their lair of lies to brainstorm revisions of legends and lore
which they hope might find their way into the minds of the gullible.
It appears as though Holocaust mythologists have decided the masses
are in need of some "Diesel therapy."

In 1961, Raul Hilberg wrote "The Destruction of European Jews", in
which he claims "hundreds of thousands" were killed with carbon
monoxide gas at Kulmhof, Belzac, Sobibor, Lublin and Treblinka. The
carbon monoxide gas was said to have been produced from Diesel
engines. As a special note, Christian Wirth supposedly asked Gerstein
(author of the much publicized "Gerstein Statement") not to propose,
in Berlin, any other type of "gas chamber" than that of the Diesel
carbon monoxide.

By examining the "eyewitness" testimony, and analyzing the engineering
data with respect to Diesel combustion engines, researchers soon
debunked the Diesel deaths as dramatic droll. With their backs against
the wall and wailing, the mythologists had to slip in a few new notes
and a prayer for plausibility. Today the Holocausters are scrapping
their much touted "eyewitness" testimony in this case and have decided
that the engines were of the gasoline nature. This "put a band-aid on
it" mentality simply shows to what outlandish lengths Holocaust
mythologists will go to breathe life into their terminally ill legend.
Regardless of how much emotional appeal is blurted forth from these
fiction fabricators, science will extirpate their absurd allegations.
I think the following information I found at
http://pubweb.nwu.edu/~abutz/dnews/njhcom1.html says it all.

"An article in the Newark Star Ledger of 23 October, 1996 (p15) treats
Web sites that some consider objectionable. Among these are sites of
Holocaust revisionists. Steve Some, Chairman of the New Jersey
Commisson on Holocaust Education, said 'These Holocaust deniers are
very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and
figures.' "

Need anymore be said? 

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit Macht Frei


From cswiger@westco.net Fri Jan  3 08:51:06 PST 1997
Article: 93406 of soc.culture.german
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: More Krap from Kreiberg
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 05:14:53 GMT
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Ken:

>Mr. Kreiberg would have us believe that the Americans arbitrarily
>revoke citizenship - even from native-born Americans, whenever the
>spirit moves them... for what we are really talking about here is
>Mr. Kreiberg's plan to emulate the Nazis he so adores, and revoke
>the citizenship of honest Danes, simply because he doesn't like
>their colour. He would have us equate this terrorism with
>deporting folks who overstayed their visas. _That's_ how stupid
>Mr. Kreider thinks you are.

I live in the United States and I can tell you that the revoking of
citizenship does happen here for very political reasons. And, you can
betcha that it is indeed "whenever the spirit moves them." Especially
when the "spirit" is conjured up from within Zionist circles. A few
years back there was a German born naturalized citizen of the United
States brought up on charges for the same old doldrum of "war crimes"
BY AN ISRAELI COURT. Pardon my spelling here, but his name was John
Demanjuk. There was a lot of protest within the patriot movement over
his extradition to Jewland, but the United States government did all
it could to placate Zionists. As you might expect, I wrote a letter of
protest to my "U.S." senator who informed me that the individual in
question "lied" on his application for U.S. citizenship some 40 or 50
odd years ago. As it turns out, it was merely a misspelling infraction
or some small item of confusion that provided the catalyst to have the
man shipped off to the land of Yahweh's Chosen.

If an individual makes a political argument that a racially
homogenious society is more healthy than a cosmopolitian one, he
certainly has more scientific validation for his argument than the
social engineers of multiculturalism. Science builds the politics of
National Socialism whereas politics builds the "science" of
multiculturalism. 

>Therein lies Mr. Kreiberg's problem... he is so much in need of
>someone who will tell him that revoking citizenship because of
>skin colour or cultural background is a dandy idea... and he is
>certain to have such friends. 

Yes, if he said this, he has one in me. This phenomenon eventually
occurs naturally or by force. The United States continues to
experience balkanization based upon race and culture even with the
strongest efforts by our government to develop "tolerance",
interracial marriage and multiculturalism. It has proven itself to be
an effort in futility. Even cultural boundaries within racial groups
can cause such division. Consider the failure of Tito's program. Could
you and your multiculturalists, with gun in hand, be more successful
than Tito at forcing multiculturalism upon the Croats, Serbs and
Muslims?

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit Macht Frei


From cswiger@westco.net Sat Jan  4 09:44:00 PST 1997
Article: 90919 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Swiger Lies: The Diesel Scam
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 09:10:59 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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	On Fri, 03 Jan 1997 16:50:35 +0000, Chuck Ferree
 wrote:

>Chuck Ferree for the turkey Swiger. (I thought the SOB died and went 
>to hell, before me!)

I did, Chuck, but Satan threw me out because I wasn't a Jew. No,
actually my computer got struck by lightning back in August and I had
so much work to do that I was tardy in getting it repaired. But I'm
back now!!! Bet you're real happy to hear this, nicht wahr? Say, do
you still have that foul mouth on you? From reading your post I can
see you haven't learned much. Oh well, we'll straighten you out on the
facts eventually Chuck. 

I've dropped in on this Nikzor site several times lately. They have
quite a nice file on me there along with my old buddies Kleinsorg and
Koch. I also read this so called rebuttal to Freidrich Paul Berg's
examination of the Diesel "gas chambers." I read nothing there of
merit but I would recommend lurkers check out both sides of the
argument to see for themselves how incompetent the staff at Nikzor
really is with their emotions verses reality tactics. Now onward to
your post!!!!
 
>Still, people are encouraged to read all the details. One thing 
>"scientific" Holocaust deniers like Berg
>and Fred Leuchter count on is the fact that many non-scientists can't 
>follow scientific debates, and
>assume that if it is dressed up in scientific terms, it must be right. 

This is purely an ad hominem argument, Chuck. Basically you're calling
people ignorant that may not understand scientific terminology and
evidence that show the Holocaust is a myth. You might encourage people
to "read all the details," but you sure as Hell wouldn't want them to
understand them now would you? If that were to be the case, your
Holocaust crap goes sliding over the S-trap.  

>But there are many other scientific
>debates we see today - pollution, cancer, global warming, etc. - which 
>enter into the political arena.
>Some of these arguments are made to support a hidden ideological 
>agenda, and the science is
>dishonest. We hope that following the full argument will help people 
>realize that just because
>something comes dressed up as "science" doesn't mean you should stop 
>thinking critically about
>what you're being told. 

Chuckie boy, science is not dishonest; theories sometimes are.
Nonetheless, you're going to extremes here with subjects we are still
learning about (pollution, cancer, global warming, et al). With
carburation and ignition of combustible gases the issue is more
concrete. Engineering is the practical application of scientific
principles and that is what we're dealing with here. I want to remind
you that Holocaust mythologists like yourself are attempting to
overturn decades of tried, tested and proven data tables as relates to
Diesel combustion. Guten Gluck!

>Therefore (reasons Berg) contrary to the assertion of historians, the 
>victims were not killed by
>carbon monoxide. 

How imbecillic of you, Chuck. Berg merely points out that it is highly
improbable (if not indeed impossible) that individuals were executed
according to the alleged means. The Germans may have indeed murdered
Jews as you claim. But, the "eyewitness" testimony in this
circumstance is ludicrous upon examination from just this one
perspective: The chemical reaction of Diesel combustion.


>For example, in Usenet alt.revisionism article 
><2vt3du$t0b@mary.iia.org>,
>Friedrich Berg wrote: "[Scott] Mullins should try to run a 
>heavily-loaded 150 HP engine, that is still
>small, with a propeller or fan in a closed loop without making lots 
>and lots of noise." 

I think reference is made here based upon the fact that in order for a
Diesel combustion engine to emmit a substantial amount of carbon
monoxide it must be placed under a "heavy" load. In this condition the
engine would produce excessive noise. Couple this with much of the so
called "testimony" that the National Socialists carried out their
genocide in utmost secrecy within the camps. Certainly this is not the
crux of showing that the "Diesel Death" allegation is a farce. The
chemical reaction is the central focus. However, the former certainly
indicates the ridiculous nature of the charge.

>In the same article, Berg also wrote, "Since the load of any fan or 
>propeller varies non-linearly with
>RPM, it is still quite a trick to choose the right sized fan or 
>propeller. Ivan with the big wrench
>won't know how." 
>
>Here Berg is actually arguing two contradictory things at once. If 
>this had been done, "Ivan," of
>course, wouldn't have done it. It was the Nazis who created the 
>system, not the Russians or
>Ukranians. The Russians just built the original engine. The Nazis 
>would have modified it. 

>Is Berg saying the Nazis wouldn't have known how to do this? 

Berg is saying that there would be a lot of engineering involved to
exert the proper load on an engine by use of an opposing impeller.
You're not going to be able to take a Soviet tank engine and race the
engine (unopposed) and produce the carbon monoxide levels necessary to
validate your whimsical Holocaust nonsense. Grow up Chuck.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Sat Jan  4 09:44:01 PST 1997
Article: 90920 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 07:30:04 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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Sammy:

>	What is quite strange in this holohugger movement is a
>reverence for people who managed to wind up dead.  Although the means
>vary, it is something that everyone eventually accomplishes.  

Except for the "survivors", of which there never seems to be any lack
thereof. Today's "survivors' " progeny will live on as "survivors of
survivors ad nauseum.

>	There is a great difference between dying for one's beliefs and
>dying because of them.  However, this change does appear to fit into
>the easy heroism mold of today.  "Don't hurt self-respect, everyone is
>a hero."  

Yes, the meaning has been twisted. To be a "victim", according to
Judaized definition, is to be a hero.

In my opinion, the movement of Zionism will never sustain itself
without the sympathy of it's recognized opposition, ie, the Holocaust
Myth. For all intents and purposes, Theodore Herzel's Jewish state has
arrived with Israel. Herzel made it sound as though he simply wanted a
small piece of land for the Jews to eke out a living amongst
themselves. But, we can clearly see that neo-Zionism will not and
cannot carry out this plan. The Jew state of Israel would wither on
the vine and die if it were not for the non-Jewish "contributions"
made thereto. 

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Sat Jan  4 10:35:39 PST 1997
Article: 93482 of soc.culture.german
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Message to Ken McMouth
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 07:30:00 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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Ken:

Cliff Swiger (I) wrote>>By examining the "eyewitness" testimony, and
analyzing the engineering data with respect to Diesel combustion
engines, researchers soon debunked the Diesel deaths as dramatic
droll. With their backs against.......<<

>>Thank you, Mr. Swiger, for once again offering us this particular
piece of claptrap. I have not yet seen any research which
"debunked" the diesel gas chambers, although Friedrich Berg tried
real hard before turning tail and bravely running away.<<

I think the fact is you cannot "understand" carburation and ignition
theory. This is your problem. I want to mention here a particular
portion of Berg's treatise on Diesel engines and then I want you to
realize just how ignorant you appear to those who understand
engineering sciences. 

"That Figure 3 and Figure 5 are indeed typical of all Diesel engines
over the last 50 years is attested to by the fact that these
particular curves have been referred to and are still being referred
to in countless journals and books on Diesel emissions to this very
day."

Can this penetrate your Zionist clogged cranium? Now you can crow
about all the Diesel "gas chambers" you want. Although NONE have ever
been produced, what Berg did here was placate your nonsense that they
did and then show you how it would not have made any difference based
upon Diesel combustion analysis.   

>>After reading your particular version of Berg's silliness, perhaps
some here will enjoy reading the response to Berg's paper - which,
I must point out, uses Berg's own data to demonstrate his errors,
which were legion. The report may be found at this
URL:http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html<<

Oh I'll check it out, thanks. If its like all the other "rebuttals"
one finds at this sideshow, I doubt anyone will be impressed.

>>Your comments are invited, in alt.revisionism, where they belong...
 I know you would rather avoid the group - at nearly any cost - but
Holocaust denial doesn't belong in a German cultural group.<<

I don't need your invitation. Who says "Holocaust denial doesn't
belong in a German cultural group", you?

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Sun Jan  5 23:01:04 PST 1997
Article: 91272 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nikzor's Mike Stein
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 08:06:49 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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Nikzor's Mike Stein, a "Talmud-thumping.....JOO" as he calls himself,
claims to have publicized a great revelation and rebuttal to Friedrich
Paul Berg's "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth within a Myth." But what
actually appears in this harangue is nothing more than disagreement
over minor technical data as regards the chemical reactions involved
with Diesel combustion engines. 

Certainly, in technical research, one is going to encounter extremes
in data. But, industry attempts to establish standards, which are
averages, for design parameters and operation, in effect, smoothing
out the spikes. Standards, curves and tables do not represent 100%
predictable data. They do, however, establish a mean (average) by
which engineers, designers, et al, can make professional decisions. I
may make the statement that Earth's gravitational acceleration is
9.806 meters/second squared and be called a liar. 9.806 meters/second
squared is an AVERAGE value that is commonly used in scientific
calculations. But, in reality, I am a liar due to the fact that the
effect of Earth's instananeous gravitational acceleration on a body is
dependent upon that body's distance from the center of the Earth.
Nonetheless, I'm a liar. This is Mike Stein's tactic.

Ironically, Stein admits the following in his diatribe against Berg as
relates to the alleged Diesel "gas chambers." "They probably did die
>from  asphyxiation, with other contributing factors." Has Berg not
proven his point then?? Stein then spins off in another direction on
his "Holocoaster of Hoaxes" by suggesting that the "executioners" did
not understand that Diesel exhaust was not the primary contributor to
the death of the victims but the end result was the same so they
continued with the process................ Yet another crass and
mundane remark from a Holocaust mythologist! The same type who would
try to convince us that those savvy Germans designed crematoria in
circa 1940, that operated exponentially more efficient than even the
most state of the art, yet were so ignorant as to carry out a plan of
genocide by use of Diesel exhaust which Stein himself admits would
have been an ignorance in science.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Mon Jan  6 01:57:29 PST 1997
Article: 93641 of soc.culture.german
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 03:47:53 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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The world is constantly reminded, by Zionist media outlets, that the
Jewish Holocaust must be a reality given the enormous amount of
"eyewitness" testimony. Certainly eyewitness accounts in any criminal
trial should be investigated unless the allegations exceed the point
of plausibility. There is a lot of "eyewitness" testimony charging
that the German National Socialists "gassed" and cremated millions
upon untold millions of Jews. At Nuremberg, much of this testimony was
accepted as prima facia evidence and a number of German military
personnel were imprisoned or executed. The battle today between
Revisionists and Holocaust mythologists is over the substantiation of
this "eyewitness" testimony. The mythologists do not want the book
reopened for obvious reasons: Their myth will come crashing down.
Revisionists, on the other hand, are determined to set the record
straight. 

What the Holocaust mythologists would rather you not know is that
there is eyewitness testimony that the Jewish Holocaust was nothing
more than latrine gossip. Paul Rassinier was a political prisoner at
Buchenwald and questioned the allegations of "gas chambers." The Jew
Josef Ginsburg was deported during WW2 to the eastern occupied
territories of the Germans. Ginsburg denied the German Government ever
contemplated the extermination of the Jews. Thies Christopherson,
author of the book, "The Auschwitz Lie", was at Auschwitz from January
to December of 1944, says that gassings never took place. However,
perhaps the most devastating testimony to the Holocaust myth has come
in recent years. An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, was interned
at Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942. While being transported to Auschwitz,
rumors were floating that all arrivals to the prison camp would be
gassed to death. Obviously this never happened to Maria as she lived
to testify of her account in a Toronto District Court in March 1988! A
Jewish woman, Marika Frank, arrived in Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary
in July 1944. This was a time when 25.000 Jews per day are claimed to
have been gassed and cremated. After the war, she testified that
nothing of the sort ever happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau while she was
interned there. Maria said she only heard of the gassing tales later.

Obviously the publicity stunt known as the Jewish Holocaust is rapidly
being exposed for the myth it is. Holocaust mythologists, clever as
they are at times, will no doubt eventually lose in their quest to
deceive the world.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei 


From cswiger@westco.net Mon Jan  6 02:18:20 PST 1997
Article: 91295 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Witnesses say "No Holocaust"
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 03:47:51 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
Lines: 43
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The world is constantly reminded, by Zionist media outlets, that the
Jewish Holocaust must be a reality given the enormous amount of
"eyewitness" testimony. Certainly eyewitness accounts in any criminal
trial should be investigated unless the allegations exceed the point
of plausibility. There is a lot of "eyewitness" testimony charging
that the German National Socialists "gassed" and cremated millions
upon untold millions of Jews. At Nuremberg, much of this testimony was
accepted as prima facia evidence and a number of German military
personnel were imprisoned or executed. The battle today between
Revisionists and Holocaust mythologists is over the substantiation of
this "eyewitness" testimony. The mythologists do not want the book
reopened for obvious reasons: Their myth will come crashing down.
Revisionists, on the other hand, are determined to set the record
straight. 

What the Holocaust mythologists would rather you not know is that
there is eyewitness testimony that the Jewish Holocaust was nothing
more than latrine gossip. Paul Rassinier was a political prisoner at
Buchenwald and questioned the allegations of "gas chambers." The Jew
Josef Ginsburg was deported during WW2 to the eastern occupied
territories of the Germans. Ginsburg denied the German Government ever
contemplated the extermination of the Jews. Thies Christopherson,
author of the book, "The Auschwitz Lie", was at Auschwitz from January
to December of 1944, says that gassings never took place. However,
perhaps the most devastating testimony to the Holocaust myth has come
in recent years. An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, was interned
at Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942. While being transported to Auschwitz,
rumors were floating that all arrivals to the prison camp would be
gassed to death. Obviously this never happened to Maria as she lived
to testify of her account in a Toronto District Court in March 1988! A
Jewish woman, Marika Frank, arrived in Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary
in July 1944. This was a time when 25.000 Jews per day are claimed to
have been gassed and cremated. After the war, she testified that
nothing of the sort ever happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau while she was
interned there. Maria said she only heard of the gassing tales later.

Obviously the publicity stunt known as the Jewish Holocaust is rapidly
being exposed for the myth it is. Holocaust mythologists, clever as
they are at times, will no doubt eventually lose in their quest to
deceive the world.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei 


From cswiger@westco.net Mon Jan  6 08:23:31 PST 1997
Article: 93661 of soc.culture.german
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Nikzor's Mike Stein
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 08:06:51 GMT
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Nikzor's Mike Stein, a "Talmud-thumping.....JOO" as he calls himself,
claims to have publicized a great revelation and rebuttal to Friedrich
Paul Berg's "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth within a Myth." But what
actually appears in this harangue is nothing more than disagreement
over minor technical data as regards the chemical reactions involved
with Diesel combustion engines. 

Certainly, in technical research, one is going to encounter extremes
in data. But, industry attempts to establish standards, which are
averages, for design parameters and operation, in effect, smoothing
out the spikes. Standards, curves and tables do not represent 100%
predictable data. They do, however, establish a mean (average) by
which engineers, designers, et al, can make professional decisions. I
may make the statement that Earth's gravitational acceleration is
9.806 meters/second squared and be called a liar. 9.806 meters/second
squared is an AVERAGE value that is commonly used in scientific
calculations. But, in reality, I am a liar due to the fact that the
effect of Earth's instananeous gravitational acceleration on a body is
dependent upon that body's distance from the center of the Earth.
Nonetheless, I'm a liar. This is Mike Stein's tactic.

Ironically, Stein admits the following in his diatribe against Berg as
relates to the alleged Diesel "gas chambers." "They probably did die
>from  asphyxiation, with other contributing factors." Has Berg not
proven his point then?? Stein then spins off in another direction on
his "Holocoaster of Hoaxes" by suggesting that the "executioners" did
not understand that Diesel exhaust was not the primary contributor to
the death of the victims but the end result was the same so they
continued with the process................ Yet another crass and
mundane remark from a Holocaust mythologist! The same type who would
try to convince us that those savvy Germans designed crematoria in
circa 1940, that operated exponentially more efficient than even the
most state of the art, yet were so ignorant as to carry out a plan of
genocide by use of Diesel exhaust which Stein himself admits would
have been an ignorance in science.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Tue Jan  7 12:02:35 PST 1997
Article: 93727 of soc.culture.german
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: For Ken McVay
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 07:53:16 GMT
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Cliff Swiger Wrote:
>>The world is constantly reminded, by Zionist media outlets, that the
>>Jewish Holocaust must be a reality given the enormous amount of
>>"eyewitness" testimony. Certainly eyewitness accounts in any criminal

Ken McVay Replied:
>Actually, Mr. Swiger, history is not determined by any single
>factor - particularly eyewitness testimony. It is determined by
>the convergeance of evidence. Why you would attempt to obscure
>that reality is a question I leave to others to explore.

Oooooh, how many times have I read this line? The "convergence of
evidence" you mention here is exactly what is being challenged by
Revisionists. If its so rock solid you shouldn't worry, right? Fact is
the "evidence" given judicial notice at the Nuremburg and  "Auschwitz
Trials" did not follow Western jurisprudence. Take an olio of
crematories, concentration camps, emaciated corpses, a decimated foe
and a lot of "eyewitness testimony" that was given more weight in a
courtroom than any other form of evidence and you've got yourself the
makings of  a politically motivated kangaroo court. 

>Mr. Swiger, there is no battle - there is an educational effort to
>combat racism - for that is what Holocaust denial is. 

Your definition of course. For the record, I'm politically a National
Socialist and a racist. I also acknowledge the Jewish Holocaust for
the myth it is. But, your statement is illogical. 

1. some people are racists who deny the Holocaust
2. some people deny the Holocaust
3. all people who deny the Holocaust are racists

Hypothetical Syllogism. There are a lot of individuals who deny the
Holocaust (some are Jews) who do not have a racist bone in their body.
You need to criticize your critical thinking.

>Mr. Rassinier's lack of experience in the death camps suggests
>that he's not a very reliable witness, Mr. Swiger; that raises an
>important question, of course:

Can this same line of argument not apply to those who witnessed that
the Holocaust was factual? Your bias is horrendous. 

>What is your personal standard of evidence, Mr. Swiger?
>With regard to witnesses, for instance, please tell us your
>precise standards for determining whether or not a witness is credible.

An eyewitness account, with particular reference to "gas chambers" and
cremation rates, etc., should be corroborated with forensic and
scientific evidence. The former type of evidence is actually the
weakest form of while the latter is the strongest, at least in Western
court systems. If individuals testify that there were "gas chambers"
then a forensic investigation and engineering study should be
conducted to validate the claims. Every scientific examination I've
perused indicates that the witnesses were/are liars. No one has ever
come forward to demonstrate a working gas chamber of the type alleged
in the German concentration camps that would stand up to scientific
examination.  


>>Josef Ginsburg was deported during WW2 to the eastern occupied
>>territories of the Germans. Ginsburg denied the German Government ever
>>contemplated the extermination of the Jews. Thies Christopherson,
>>author of the book, "The Auschwitz Lie", was at Auschwitz from January
>>to December of 1944, says that gassings never took place. However,

>When did the gas chambers cease operation, Mr. Swiger?

They never started since they never existed! Nice try. I do have some
conflicting information on the ceasing of operation of the crematories
if it interests you.

>Which camp held Mr. Ginsburg? (Please be specific - it was a huge .complex.)
> What standard of proof have you applied to Mr.  Ginsburg's t.estimony? Please outline it, 

I'm not sure if Mr. Ginsburg was ever incarcerated in a camp. In fact,
I think he and his family were simply deported and eventually ended up
living in Israel. But, he became so thoroughly disgusted with Zionism,
he left. What is their to prove about Ginsburg's testimony? Remember
something here, Ken. In a criminal court, the burden of proof is
supposed to lie upon the accuser. Ginsburg simply gave his OPINION
that the German Government had no intentions of a Jew genocide. If you
or other mythologists say otherwise, then you must present your
evidence as the accusers.


>as per my earlier request. (I should point out that every single 
>Holocaust denier I've encounted here on the net has been asked this 
>question. None have answered it, for some strange reason.)

Did I answer it? You're somewhat vague here.

>Mr. Swiger may be aware of the fact that roughly 65,000
>_registered_prisoners_ survived Auschwitz-Birkenau. Is Mr. Swiger
>suggesting that the other 405,000 registered prisoners were not
>murdered? And what of the other 7- or 800,000 Jews known to have
>been transported to Auschwitz, Mr. Swiger?

Look, Ken, demographics are a toughie and I'm really not that well
prepared to deal with them. I've read a lot on this controversy and I
really can't come to any solid conclusions. I'll give you the benefit
of the doubt here and assume your numbers are correct. But, you seem
to suggest that at least 405,000 prisoners were murdered. I would ask
how and then ask what evidence you have for this which brings us right
back where we started. We still don't have found our industrial murder
weapon.

 >Where, pray tell, did they go? (Mr. Giwer says that they are in
>Miami, but Mr. Giwer's grasp of reality is often unreliable.)

I can't speak for Mr. Giwer, although I have a lot of respect for him.
A lot of Ashkenazi Jews did migrate to the United States before,
during, and after the war. I've been to Miami, there are a lot of Jews
there .

>The "Jewish Holocaust," Mr. Swiger? What about the six million
>non-Jews Hitler's thugs murdered? Is there some reason you haven't
>addressed their fate?

I haven't reviewed any hard evidence that this happened. As before,
there is a lot of hearsay evidence and flimsy demographic arguments.
But none that would convict anyone in a Western criminal court. Do you
know that there has NEVER been a single documented forensic
examination on any of the corpses showing that the victim died of
gassing? 

>>being exposed for the myth it is. Holocaust mythologists, clever as
>>they are at times, will no doubt eventually lose in their quest to
>>deceive the world.

>Projecting, are we, Mr. Swiger?

Absolutely.

>By the way, Mr. Swiger, when are you going to start dealing with
>the cremation question before you? Is there some reason you are
>avoiding it? I don't mean to pick on you, but you have brought it
>up three times in the last few days, so it would appear that you
>seem to find it important. Perhaps that's why I find it so strange
>that you seem so reluctant to talk about it....

I clipped an article out of a newspaper (The Dominion Post) on January
29,1995. I believe it was in rememberance of the "liberation" of
Auschwitz. The article originated with the Baltimore Sun. Of course it
describes the typical Holocaust lie we're all used to. But, here is a
very interesting passage from that article,

 "The payoff for this planning hit its stride in the spring of 1944 at
Auschwitz-Birkenau, when the smoke of 12,000 bodies per day floated
darkly from the chimneys." Keep this in mind, "12,000 bodies per day."

I'm going to give you the best case scenario here. Birkenau had 46
ovens and Auschwitz (Krema 1) had 6 for a total of 52 ovens. Now let's
do some math. According to the article 12,000 bodies were cremated in
one day by 52 ovens. So, 12,000 bodies / 52 ovens = 230.76923 bodies
per oven per day. Or, 9.6153846 bodies / oven / hour. Factoring
further, 0.1602564 bodies / minute / oven. Taking the inverse of this
figure we find that it took 6.24 minutes to cremate a corpse. Hell,
let's really go for it. Let's say those Nazis stuffed 3 bodies in each
retort so they were actually  processing 4,000 "units" of Jew. In this
case we come up with a time of 18.72 minutes per body. Naw, lets go
for 4 Jews per retort. Now our time is 24.96 minutes to cremate a
body. Sound feasible?

I consulted several Websites that deal with the cremation process.
They describe it in detail. As for cremation rates here is what they
had to say;

"The time required for cremation to be completed may vary depending
upon the weight and size of the person. Generally cremation takes 2 to
3 hours,.......The bone particles removed from the chamber vary in
size and shape and may be mechanically processed to reduce them to a
manageable consistency.........."

"The time for cremation to be completed varies............but usually
takes 1 to 3 hours"

"The cremation process exposes the body to open flame , intense heat
and evaporation, reducing it to fragments in 2 to 3 hours."

Boy those "Nazis" were efficient weren't they! Cremating an entire
body in 6.42 minutes with circa 1940 equipment that operated hundreds
of degrees lower than state-of-the-art models. Heck, take the four
Jews per retort example, I don't care. Its still an absurd allegation.
Ken, this information does not disprove a Holocaust but it certainly
demonstrates what worthless, incompetent liars these Holocaust
mythologists are. Why do you think they continue to scale back the
numbers? Man, they've got to do something to make their myth at least
somewhat plausible. If you can ever accept the reality I've presented
here on crematories, but you still insist on believing in the
"gassings" of millions, consider how many of these "gassing" victims
would have had to have been stockpiled awaiting their trip into the
ovens! Its ridiculous, isn't it? Have a good day.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Tue Jan  7 22:41:24 PST 1997
Article: 93754 of soc.culture.german
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: For Mike Stein
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 07:53:25 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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Cliff Swiger wrote:


Cliff Swiger Wrote:
>> Nikzor's Mike Stein, a "Talmud-thumping.....JOO" as he calls himself,
>> claims to have publicized a great revelation and rebuttal to Friedrich
>> Paul Berg's "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth within a Myth." But what
>> actually appears in this harangue is nothing more than disagreement
>> over minor technical data as regards the chemical reactions involved
>> with Diesel combustion engines. 

Mike Stein Replied:
>    I'm sure Mr. Swiger would like people to think that this is all I did. 
>Alas, he unaccountably failed to produce quotes from my work and show how
>his characterization is true.

 You mention the specific quotes I'm referring to in this particular
post. See your next paragraph below. 

>    To tell you the truth, I don't recall making a single claim about the
>chemical reactions.  What I did was reproduce information taken from
>technical papers describing the composition of exhaust gas from a diesel
>engine under different conditions, and point out some things contained in
>those papers that Friedrich Berg failed to mention.  I don't claim to have
>a clue as to the exact chemical reactions that went on inside the
>cylinders to produce that exhaust.

True, you did not specifically cite a CH4 + 2O2 = CO2 + 2H20
theoretical chemical equation, but you did make reference to graphs
that pertain to the same with considerations, of course, for
incomplete combustion which is what this discussion is all about. As I
said in an earlier post, death from carbon monoxide from a Diesel
combustion engine is definitelty possible but highly improbable. I
also agreed that there is often extraneous data results in research
which do not appear in design curves, graphs and tables. Your double
talk is so obvious I'm surprised others haven't grilled you for it
before this, maybe they have. 

You make two arguments that oppose one another. With the data you
present in your treatise at Nikzor you theorize that the German
National Socialists made fuel/air ratio adjustments to the Diesel
engines to maximize the output of CO. Along with this, you contend
they may have somehow successfully imparted the needed load on the
engine for the same purposes. Therefore, they must have possessed the
technical knowledge with reference to Diesel combustion in order to do
this. Then, in another scenario whereby you apparently agree with
Berg's analysis of Diesel combustion, you suggest that the Germans
were ignorant of the fact that Diesel exhaust is a poor execution
medium, but it somehow worked so they continued to use it. You can't
have it both ways, Stein, which will it be?

Consider this tale of Diesel "gassing" by Gerstein. The SS supposedly
packed 700 to 800 Jews into a 25 square meter area within a "gas
chamber." At best, you can get 10 thin people onto one square meter,
tests have shown 8 is a more realistic number. But for your sake,
let's assume that 250 individuals were packed into this 25 square
meter area within a hermetically sealed chamber with a total volume of
47.5 cubic meters (Gerstein's testimony). 250 persons displace 15
cubic meters, which means an air volume of 32.5 cubic meters. The
breathing time volume of those people will amount, on the average, to
7.5 litres per minute. Therefore, 250 people will require 250 x 60 x
7.5/1000=112.5 cubic meters of air to breath in one hour. In 32.5
cubic meters of room space, this air, therefore, will pass through the
lungs of the people shut up in that room 3.45 times in one hour. After
34 minutes and 40 seconds the air in the chamber would have made it's
second pass through the victims' lungs and oxygen content would have
been down to about 10%. The victims would be dead in 30 to 45 minutes.
BUT! Gerstein claims that the Diesel engine would not start (probably
>from  to rich a fuel mixture!) for 2 hours and 49 minutes while the
victims awaited their fate in the "gas chamber." Gerstein even said
they sobbed and wailed during the whole episode! 

ENOUGH OF THIS LIE! Your whole Diesel Holohoax argument hinges upon
one item: Ignorance. I've dulled your doubled-edged sword argument
and, even if you were to choose either, demonstrated with the laws of
nature that "confessions" and "testimonies" like Gerstein's are
prevarications. Go pound your Talmud, maybe Yahweh will help you come
up with something more plausible.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei



From cswiger@westco.net Wed Jan  8 05:43:41 PST 1997
Article: 91715 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There is no debate
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 06:55:16 GMT
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On Tue, 07 Jan 1997 14:18:13 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>Not only that but they don't even want to be bothered for email
>discussions. Poor dears, they are such cowards. 

Not the point, Mike. CODOH is not a debating organization and you know
it. B.Smith simply wants interested parties to have access to
Revisionist materials and the right to discuss them in an open, public
forum. The very thought of this horrifies Holocaust mythologists who w
much rather prefer Draconian laws (as exist in Germany today) against
any discussion of the subject. Welcome to the Dark Ages.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei



From cswiger@westco.net Wed Jan  8 05:43:41 PST 1997
Article: 91736 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Witnesses say "No Holocaust"
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 06:52:59 GMT
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On Tue, 07 Jan 1997 02:56:21 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

>Mr. Christopherson was "growing dandelions (for the production of
>synthetic rubber) in 1944, on a state farm, three kilometers from
>Auschwitz, a very real- but different -place." (cf. Vidal-Naquet,
>_Assassins of Memory_, p.21.) That Mr. Christopherson evidently never
>personaly saw any homicidal gassings take place is rather unremarkable
>considering that he evidently was never at Birkenau! 

All I'm telling you is that the man said there was no Jewish
Holocaust. Maybe he did have a cushy job nearby, I really do not know.
But, if a Jew Holocaust were indeed taking place I'm sure he'd had
either heard about it or observed evidence of it. Consider the
following "eyewitness" testimony of Kitty Hart.

"Smoke billowed out of the chimneys, and soon tongues of of flame shot
out two meters high into the sky. The smoke became increasingly dense,
dark, and more suffocating, and it had a most peculiar odor. The odor
of burning corpses may be compared to that of burning feathers. The
stench of this burnt fat and hair was unbearable. What we had heard in
the other camps was actually true---the rumors were not exaggerated.
Here were the death factories. When evening came, the sky was red, as
though it were ablaze."

Now if this sort of thing were actually going on I've got to believe
Christopherson would have noticed it or heard of it. Don't you?  

>This is the  Maria Vanherwaarden who was imprisoned for violating Nazi
>racial laws. She was not an "untermensch," or worse: Jewish. She was an
>"Aryan" and therefore lived in the "Arayn" barracks with the "Arayn"
>criminals and political prisoners. The Nazis did not include "Ayrans" in
>the "special actions" at Birkenau. That was for the untermenschen and,
>most especially Jews, where were considered as vermin. 

So what? She was there was she not? Fact is she said she saw nor heard
any of this Holocaust nonsense. Point made!

>Now, either Ms. Vanherwaarden is mistaken about where she took a shower
>at, or she was perhaps registered in Auschwitz I and spent some (all?)
>time there? If she is mistaken, then she could as well be mistaken about
>her other recollections as reported by deniers. And if she is _not_
>mistaken but _was_, for example, registered in Auschwitz I, then this fact
>was "overlooked" by deniers such as Weber and Raven et. al. who have made
>issue over Ms. Vanherwaarden's testimony.

Maybe the window was boarded up when she showered? Who knows? Are you
really willing to disregard the lady's testimony if indeed she slipped
on this one minor issue? Will you make a commitment to disregard ANY
testimony by "Holocaust" witnesses if I point out MAJOR discrepancies
in their stories? (grinning from ear to ear!)

>As usual, things are not what Mr. Swiger would have them appear to be. 

Oh I think the examples I've printed here speak for themselves. But
now that you mention it, things aren't always as they appear.
Especially when it come to the really cruel, harsh living conditions
that some Jewish inmates lived under. Like this, from Rudolf Verba, in
his book "I cannot Forgive" describing the horrors of concentration
camp life:

"Rudi," she said softly, "look at me."
Slowly, I turned around and looked at her. She was crouching on the
bed, and I believe that I have never seen anything more beautiful. Her
dark brown hair fell down over her shoulders. Her eyes were misty, but
still she smiled, and her mouth was a soft provocation. She reclined
completely, and the delicate shape of her breasts was outlined lightly
under her pale blue blouse.
My inhibitions, all inhibitions vanished. I bent over her, so close to
her that her scent enveloped me, and this time all embarrassment had
disappeared.
"You smell so nice," I whispered, foolishly and confused. "Why do you
smell so nice?"
She giggled. It was a quite breathless, soft laughter. "Soap, my
dearest," she murmured. "Nothing more than soap. But why do you talk
so much?"

Whoa! Those Nazis must've served up some oyster stew to the prison
population that night! Do emaciated women have shapely breasts? And, I
though those Nazis shaved everyone's hair off and sold it back home in
the Reich? Where'd this dame get her soap? Was it the product of one
of her Jewish relatives? 

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Wed Jan  8 06:00:05 PST 1997
Article: 93766 of soc.culture.german
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Repost on Cremation Rates
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 06:52:54 GMT
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Cliff Swiger Wrote:
>>The world is constantly reminded, by Zionist media outlets, that the
>>Jewish Holocaust must be a reality given the enormous amount of
>>"eyewitness" testimony. Certainly eyewitness accounts in any criminal

Ken McVay Replied:
>Actually, Mr. Swiger, history is not determined by any single
>factor - particularly eyewitness testimony. It is determined by
>the convergeance of evidence. Why you would attempt to obscure
>that reality is a question I leave to others to explore.

Oooooh, how many times have I read this line? The "convergence of
evidence" you mention here is exactly what is being challenged by
Revisionists. If its so rock solid you shouldn't worry, right? Fact is
the "evidence" given judicial notice at the Nuremburg and  "Auschwitz
Trials" did not follow Western jurisprudence. Take an olio of
crematories, concentration camps, emaciated corpses, a decimated foe
and a lot of "eyewitness testimony" that was given more weight in a
courtroom than any other form of evidence and you've got yourself the
makings of  a politically motivated kangaroo court. 

>Mr. Swiger, there is no battle - there is an educational effort to
>combat racism - for that is what Holocaust denial is. 

Your definition of course. For the record, I'm politically a National
Socialist and a racist. I also acknowledge the Jewish Holocaust for
the myth it is. But, your statement is illogical. 

1. some people are racists who deny the Holocaust
2. some people deny the Holocaust
3. all people who deny the Holocaust are racists

Hypothetical Syllogism. There are a lot of individuals who deny the
Holocaust (some are Jews) who do not have a racist bone in their body.
You need to criticize your critical thinking.

>Mr. Rassinier's lack of experience in the death camps suggests
>that he's not a very reliable witness, Mr. Swiger; that raises an
>important question, of course:

Can this same line of argument not apply to those who witnessed that
the Holocaust was factual? Your bias is horrendous. 

>What is your personal standard of evidence, Mr. Swiger?
>With regard to witnesses, for instance, please tell us your
>precise standards for determining whether or not a witness is credible.

An eyewitness account, with particular reference to "gas chambers" and
cremation rates, etc., should be corroborated with forensic and
scientific evidence. The former type of evidence is actually the
weakest form of while the latter is the strongest, at least in Western
court systems. If individuals testify that there were "gas chambers"
then a forensic investigation and engineering study should be
conducted to validate the claims. Every scientific examination I've
perused indicates that the witnesses were/are liars. No one has ever
come forward to demonstrate a working gas chamber of the type alleged
in the German concentration camps that would stand up to scientific
examination.  


>>Josef Ginsburg was deported during WW2 to the eastern occupied
>>territories of the Germans. Ginsburg denied the German Government ever
>>contemplated the extermination of the Jews. Thies Christopherson,
>>author of the book, "The Auschwitz Lie", was at Auschwitz from January
>>to December of 1944, says that gassings never took place. However,

>When did the gas chambers cease operation, Mr. Swiger?

They never started since they never existed! Nice try. I do have some
conflicting information on the ceasing of operation of the crematories
if it interests you.

>Which camp held Mr. Ginsburg? (Please be specific - it was a huge .complex.)
> What standard of proof have you applied to Mr.  Ginsburg's t.estimony? Please outline it, 

I'm not sure if Mr. Ginsburg was ever incarcerated in a camp. In fact,
I think he and his family were simply deported and eventually ended up
living in Israel. But, he became so thoroughly disgusted with Zionism,
he left. What is their to prove about Ginsburg's testimony? Remember
something here, Ken. In a criminal court, the burden of proof is
supposed to lie upon the accuser. Ginsburg simply gave his OPINION
that the German Government had no intentions of a Jew genocide. If you
or other mythologists say otherwise, then you must present your
evidence as the accusers.


>as per my earlier request. (I should point out that every single 
>Holocaust denier I've encounted here on the net has been asked this 
>question. None have answered it, for some strange reason.)

Did I answer it? You're somewhat vague here.

>Mr. Swiger may be aware of the fact that roughly 65,000
>_registered_prisoners_ survived Auschwitz-Birkenau. Is Mr. Swiger
>suggesting that the other 405,000 registered prisoners were not
>murdered? And what of the other 7- or 800,000 Jews known to have
>been transported to Auschwitz, Mr. Swiger?

Look, Ken, demographics are a toughie and I'm really not that well
prepared to deal with them. I've read a lot on this controversy and I
really can't come to any solid conclusions. I'll give you the benefit
of the doubt here and assume your numbers are correct. But, you seem
to suggest that at least 405,000 prisoners were murdered. I would ask
how and then ask what evidence you have for this which brings us right
back where we started. We still don't have found our industrial murder
weapon.

 >Where, pray tell, did they go? (Mr. Giwer says that they are in
>Miami, but Mr. Giwer's grasp of reality is often unreliable.)

I can't speak for Mr. Giwer, although I have a lot of respect for him.
A lot of Ashkenazi Jews did migrate to the United States before,
during, and after the war. I've been to Miami, there are a lot of Jews
there .

>The "Jewish Holocaust," Mr. Swiger? What about the six million
>non-Jews Hitler's thugs murdered? Is there some reason you haven't
>addressed their fate?

I haven't reviewed any hard evidence that this happened. As before,
there is a lot of hearsay evidence and flimsy demographic arguments.
But none that would convict anyone in a Western criminal court. Do you
know that there has NEVER been a single documented forensic
examination on any of the corpses showing that the victim died of
gassing? 

>>being exposed for the myth it is. Holocaust mythologists, clever as
>>they are at times, will no doubt eventually lose in their quest to
>>deceive the world.

>Projecting, are we, Mr. Swiger?

Absolutely.

>By the way, Mr. Swiger, when are you going to start dealing with
>the cremation question before you? Is there some reason you are
>avoiding it? I don't mean to pick on you, but you have brought it
>up three times in the last few days, so it would appear that you
>seem to find it important. Perhaps that's why I find it so strange
>that you seem so reluctant to talk about it....

I clipped an article out of a newspaper (The Dominion Post) on January
29,1995. I believe it was in rememberance of the "liberation" of
Auschwitz. The article originated with the Baltimore Sun. Of course it
describes the typical Holocaust lie we're all used to. But, here is a
very interesting passage from that article,

 "The payoff for this planning hit its stride in the spring of 1944 at
Auschwitz-Birkenau, when the smoke of 12,000 bodies per day floated
darkly from the chimneys." Keep this in mind, "12,000 bodies per day."

I'm going to give you the best case scenario here. Birkenau had 46
ovens and Auschwitz (Krema 1) had 6 for a total of 52 ovens. Now let's
do some math. According to the article 12,000 bodies were cremated in
one day by 52 ovens. So, 12,000 bodies / 52 ovens = 230.76923 bodies
per oven per day. Or, 9.6153846 bodies / oven / hour. Factoring
further, 0.1602564 bodies / minute / oven. Taking the inverse of this
figure we find that it took 6.24 minutes to cremate a corpse. Hell,
let's really go for it. Let's say those Nazis stuffed 3 bodies in each
retort so they were actually  processing 4,000 "units" of Jew. In this
case we come up with a time of 18.72 minutes per body. Naw, lets go
for 4 Jews per retort. Now our time is 24.96 minutes to cremate a
body. Sound feasible?

I consulted several Websites that deal with the cremation process.
They describe it in detail. As for cremation rates here is what they
had to say;

"The time required for cremation to be completed may vary depending
upon the weight and size of the person. Generally cremation takes 2 to
3 hours,.......The bone particles removed from the chamber vary in
size and shape and may be mechanically processed to reduce them to a
manageable consistency.........."

"The time for cremation to be completed varies............but usually
takes 1 to 3 hours"

"The cremation process exposes the body to open flame , intense heat
and evaporation, reducing it to fragments in 2 to 3 hours."

Boy those "Nazis" were efficient weren't they! Cremating an entire
body in 6.42 minutes with circa 1940 equipment that operated hundreds
of degrees lower than state-of-the-art models. Heck, take the four
Jews per retort example, I don't care. Its still an absurd allegation.
Ken, this information does not disprove a Holocaust but it certainly
demonstrates what worthless, incompetent liars these Holocaust
mythologists are. Why do you think they continue to scale back the
numbers? Man, they've got to do something to make their myth at least
somewhat plausible. If you can ever accept the reality I've presented
here on crematories, but you still insist on believing in the
"gassings" of millions, consider how many of these "gassing" victims
would have had to have been stockpiled awaiting their trip into the
ovens! Its ridiculous, isn't it? Have a good day.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Wed Jan  8 06:12:24 PST 1997
Article: 91745 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Swiger Lies: The Diesel Scam
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 06:54:18 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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> I think that WW2 and the alleged Holocaust is that part of German history, 
>that is most known to people around the world. So there is nothing strange
>that this is the subject Non-German people want to discuss with the Germans.
>I think that many Germans may wish it was different; but it isn't.
>--
>Ole Kreiberg  http://login.dknet.dk/~olk

It's a doggone shame that its against the law to deny the Holocaust in
Germany. Otherwise I bet we'd hear from a lot of angered Germans who
realize this whole thing is pferdscheiss. You're absolutely correct
that it is a part of German "history." Soc.culture.german is an
appropriate forum.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Wed Jan  8 16:18:27 PST 1997
Article: 91769 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.dmsc.net!usenet
From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death of Primo Levi
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 07:38:23 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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What's Up Chuck?

>>  Why would Primo Levi lie? He was a victim of Nazi torture.

No he was not. I've read his book. He was an inmate at Aushwitz and
lived under some unsavory conditions, but he was not tortured.

>Prove anything I ever lied about. Prove it. 

You just lied. Levi was not tortured.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Wed Jan  8 16:52:29 PST 1997
Article: 91847 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 07:38:19 GMT
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Cliff Swiger Wrote:
>>The world is constantly reminded, by Zionist media outlets, that the
>>Jewish Holocaust must be a reality given the enormous amount of
>>"eyewitness" testimony. Certainly eyewitness accounts in any criminal

Ken McVay Replied:
>Actually, Mr. Swiger, history is not determined by any single
>factor - particularly eyewitness testimony. It is determined by
>the convergeance of evidence. Why you would attempt to obscure
>that reality is a question I leave to others to explore.

Oooooh, how many times have I read this line? The "convergence of
evidence" you mention here is exactly what is being challenged by
Revisionists. If its so rock solid you shouldn't worry, right? Fact is
the "evidence" given judicial notice at the Nuremburg and  "Auschwitz
Trials" did not follow Western jurisprudence. Take an olio of
crematories, concentration camps, emaciated corpses, a decimated foe
and a lot of "eyewitness testimony" that was given more weight in a
courtroom than any other form of evidence and you've got yourself the
makings of  a politically motivated kangaroo court. 

>Mr. Swiger, there is no battle - there is an educational effort to
>combat racism - for that is what Holocaust denial is. 

Your definition of course. For the record, I'm politically a National
Socialist and a racist. I also acknowledge the Jewish Holocaust for
the myth it is. But, your statement is illogical. 

1. some people are racists who deny the Holocaust
2. some people deny the Holocaust
3. all people who deny the Holocaust are racists

Hypothetical Syllogism. There are a lot of individuals who deny the
Holocaust (some are Jews) who do not have a racist bone in their body.
You need to criticize your critical thinking.

>Mr. Rassinier's lack of experience in the death camps suggests
>that he's not a very reliable witness, Mr. Swiger; that raises an
>important question, of course:

Can this same line of argument not apply to those who witnessed that
the Holocaust was factual? Your bias is horrendous. 

>What is your personal standard of evidence, Mr. Swiger?
>With regard to witnesses, for instance, please tell us your
>precise standards for determining whether or not a witness is credible.

An eyewitness account, with particular reference to "gas chambers" and
cremation rates, etc., should be corroborated with forensic and
scientific evidence. The former type of evidence is actually the
weakest form of while the latter is the strongest, at least in Western
court systems. If individuals testify that there were "gas chambers"
then a forensic investigation and engineering study should be
conducted to validate the claims. Every scientific examination I've
perused indicates that the witnesses were/are liars. No one has ever
come forward to demonstrate a working gas chamber of the type alleged
in the German concentration camps that would stand up to scientific
examination.  


>>Josef Ginsburg was deported during WW2 to the eastern occupied
>>territories of the Germans. Ginsburg denied the German Government ever
>>contemplated the extermination of the Jews. Thies Christopherson,
>>author of the book, "The Auschwitz Lie", was at Auschwitz from January
>>to December of 1944, says that gassings never took place. However,

>When did the gas chambers cease operation, Mr. Swiger?

They never started since they never existed! Nice try. I do have some
conflicting information on the ceasing of operation of the crematories
if it interests you.

>Which camp held Mr. Ginsburg? (Please be specific - it was a huge .complex.)
> What standard of proof have you applied to Mr.  Ginsburg's t.estimony? Please outline it, 

I'm not sure if Mr. Ginsburg was ever incarcerated in a camp. In fact,
I think he and his family were simply deported and eventually ended up
living in Israel. But, he became so thoroughly disgusted with Zionism,
he left. What is their to prove about Ginsburg's testimony? Remember
something here, Ken. In a criminal court, the burden of proof is
supposed to lie upon the accuser. Ginsburg simply gave his OPINION
that the German Government had no intentions of a Jew genocide. If you
or other mythologists say otherwise, then you must present your
evidence as the accusers.


>as per my earlier request. (I should point out that every single 
>Holocaust denier I've encounted here on the net has been asked this 
>question. None have answered it, for some strange reason.)

Did I answer it? You're somewhat vague here.

>Mr. Swiger may be aware of the fact that roughly 65,000
>_registered_prisoners_ survived Auschwitz-Birkenau. Is Mr. Swiger
>suggesting that the other 405,000 registered prisoners were not
>murdered? And what of the other 7- or 800,000 Jews known to have
>been transported to Auschwitz, Mr. Swiger?

Look, Ken, demographics are a toughie and I'm really not that well
prepared to deal with them. I've read a lot on this controversy and I
really can't come to any solid conclusions. I'll give you the benefit
of the doubt here and assume your numbers are correct. But, you seem
to suggest that at least 405,000 prisoners were murdered. I would ask
how and then ask what evidence you have for this which brings us right
back where we started. We still don't have found our industrial murder
weapon.

 >Where, pray tell, did they go? (Mr. Giwer says that they are in
>Miami, but Mr. Giwer's grasp of reality is often unreliable.)

I can't speak for Mr. Giwer, although I have a lot of respect for him.
A lot of Ashkenazi Jews did migrate to the United States before,
during, and after the war. I've been to Miami, there are a lot of Jews
there .

>The "Jewish Holocaust," Mr. Swiger? What about the six million
>non-Jews Hitler's thugs murdered? Is there some reason you haven't
>addressed their fate?

I haven't reviewed any hard evidence that this happened. As before,
there is a lot of hearsay evidence and flimsy demographic arguments.
But none that would convict anyone in a Western criminal court. Do you
know that there has NEVER been a single documented forensic
examination on any of the corpses showing that the victim died of
gassing? 

>>being exposed for the myth it is. Holocaust mythologists, clever as
>>they are at times, will no doubt eventually lose in their quest to
>>deceive the world.

>Projecting, are we, Mr. Swiger?

Absolutely.

>By the way, Mr. Swiger, when are you going to start dealing with
>the cremation question before you? Is there some reason you are
>avoiding it? I don't mean to pick on you, but you have brought it
>up three times in the last few days, so it would appear that you
>seem to find it important. Perhaps that's why I find it so strange
>that you seem so reluctant to talk about it....

I clipped an article out of a newspaper (The Dominion Post) on January
29,1995. I believe it was in rememberance of the "liberation" of
Auschwitz. The article originated with the Baltimore Sun. Of course it
describes the typical Holocaust lie we're all used to. But, here is a
very interesting passage from that article,

 "The payoff for this planning hit its stride in the spring of 1944 at
Auschwitz-Birkenau, when the smoke of 12,000 bodies per day floated
darkly from the chimneys." Keep this in mind, "12,000 bodies per day."

I'm going to give you the best case scenario here. Birkenau had 46
ovens and Auschwitz (Krema 1) had 6 for a total of 52 ovens. Now let's
do some math. According to the article 12,000 bodies were cremated in
one day by 52 ovens. So, 12,000 bodies / 52 ovens = 230.76923 bodies
per oven per day. Or, 9.6153846 bodies / oven / hour. Factoring
further, 0.1602564 bodies / minute / oven. Taking the inverse of this
figure we find that it took 6.24 minutes to cremate a corpse. Hell,
let's really go for it. Let's say those Nazis stuffed 3 bodies in each
retort so they were actually  processing 4,000 "units" of Jew. In this
case we come up with a time of 18.72 minutes per body. Naw, lets go
for 4 Jews per retort. Now our time is 24.96 minutes to cremate a
body. Sound feasible?

I consulted several Websites that deal with the cremation process.
They describe it in detail. As for cremation rates here is what they
had to say;

"The time required for cremation to be completed may vary depending
upon the weight and size of the person. Generally cremation takes 2 to
3 hours,.......The bone particles removed from the chamber vary in
size and shape and may be mechanically processed to reduce them to a
manageable consistency.........."

"The time for cremation to be completed varies............but usually
takes 1 to 3 hours"

"The cremation process exposes the body to open flame , intense heat
and evaporation, reducing it to fragments in 2 to 3 hours."

Boy those "Nazis" were efficient weren't they! Cremating an entire
body in 6.42 minutes with circa 1940 equipment that operated hundreds
of degrees lower than state-of-the-art models. Heck, take the four
Jews per retort example, I don't care. Its still an absurd allegation.
Ken, this information does not disprove a Holocaust but it certainly
demonstrates what worthless, incompetent liars these Holocaust
mythologists are. Why do you think they continue to scale back the
numbers? Man, they've got to do something to make their myth at least
somewhat plausible. If you can ever accept the reality I've presented
here on crematories, but you still insist on believing in the
"gassings" of millions, consider how many of these "gassing" victims
would have had to have been stockpiled awaiting their trip into the
ovens! Its ridiculous, isn't it? Have a good day.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei




From cswiger@westco.net Wed Jan  8 22:15:48 PST 1997
Article: 91881 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nikzor's Mike Stein
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 07:38:14 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
Lines: 82
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Cliff Swiger wrote:


Cliff Swiger Wrote:
>> Nikzor's Mike Stein, a "Talmud-thumping.....JOO" as he calls himself,
>> claims to have publicized a great revelation and rebuttal to Friedrich
>> Paul Berg's "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth within a Myth." But what
>> actually appears in this harangue is nothing more than disagreement
>> over minor technical data as regards the chemical reactions involved
>> with Diesel combustion engines. 

Mike Stein Replied:
>    I'm sure Mr. Swiger would like people to think that this is all I did. 
>Alas, he unaccountably failed to produce quotes from my work and show how
>his characterization is true.

 You mention the specific quotes I'm referring to in this particular
post. See your next paragraph below. 

>    To tell you the truth, I don't recall making a single claim about the
>chemical reactions.  What I did was reproduce information taken from
>technical papers describing the composition of exhaust gas from a diesel
>engine under different conditions, and point out some things contained in
>those papers that Friedrich Berg failed to mention.  I don't claim to have
>a clue as to the exact chemical reactions that went on inside the
>cylinders to produce that exhaust.

True, you did not specifically cite a CH4 + 2O2 = CO2 + 2H20
theoretical chemical equation, but you did make reference to graphs
that pertain to the same with considerations, of course, for
incomplete combustion which is what this discussion is all about. As I
said in an earlier post, death from carbon monoxide from a Diesel
combustion engine is definitelty possible but highly improbable. I
also agreed that there is often extraneous data results in research
which do not appear in design curves, graphs and tables. Your double
talk is so obvious I'm surprised others haven't grilled you for it
before this, maybe they have. 

You make two arguments that oppose one another. With the data you
present in your treatise at Nikzor you theorize that the German
National Socialists made fuel/air ratio adjustments to the Diesel
engines to maximize the output of CO. Along with this, you contend
they may have somehow successfully imparted the needed load on the
engine for the same purposes. Therefore, they must have possessed the
technical knowledge with reference to Diesel combustion in order to do
this. Then, in another scenario whereby you apparently agree with
Berg's analysis of Diesel combustion, you suggest that the Germans
were ignorant of the fact that Diesel exhaust is a poor execution
medium, but it somehow worked so they continued to use it. You can't
have it both ways, Stein, which will it be?

Consider this tale of Diesel "gassing" by Gerstein. The SS supposedly
packed 700 to 800 Jews into a 25 square meter area within a "gas
chamber." At best, you can get 10 thin people onto one square meter,
tests have shown 8 is a more realistic number. But for your sake,
let's assume that 250 individuals were packed into this 25 square
meter area within a hermetically sealed chamber with a total volume of
47.5 cubic meters (Gerstein's testimony). 250 persons displace 15
cubic meters, which means an air volume of 32.5 cubic meters. The
breathing time volume of those people will amount, on the average, to
7.5 litres per minute. Therefore, 250 people will require 250 x 60 x
7.5/1000=112.5 cubic meters of air to breath in one hour. In 32.5
cubic meters of room space, this air, therefore, will pass through the
lungs of the people shut up in that room 3.45 times in one hour. After
34 minutes and 40 seconds the air in the chamber would have made it's
second pass through the victims' lungs and oxygen content would have
been down to about 10%. The victims would be dead in 30 to 45 minutes.
BUT! Gerstein claims that the Diesel engine would not start (probably
>from  to rich a fuel mixture!) for 2 hours and 49 minutes while the
victims awaited their fate in the "gas chamber." Gerstein even said
they sobbed and wailed during the whole episode! 

ENOUGH OF THIS LIE! Your whole Diesel Holohoax argument hinges upon
one item: Ignorance. I've dulled your doubled-edged sword argument
and, even if you were to choose either, demonstrated with the laws of
nature that "confessions" and "testimonies" like Gerstein's are
prevarications. Go pound your Talmud, maybe Yahweh will help you come
up with something more plausible.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei



From cswiger@westco.net Thu Jan  9 08:38:32 PST 1997
Article: 91930 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 06:51:46 GMT
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On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 00:19:18 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>They do not fear it. My understanding about their situation is that
>they do not want a recurrence of what happened in the 1930s. They do
>not want a criminal organization taking over their country again.
>Especially one that killed off much of the opposition early in its
>reign of terror. Plus many Germans saw and recogonized what was done
>by the criminals calling themselves Nazis and prefered not to allow a
>denial of the obvious. I can understand, but I disagree with their
>repression of these clowns for it is best that they be out in the
>open. It is best that people see them for the fools that they are. It
>would also be advantageous for the government of Germany to release as
>many of the documents they have available for historians to study. 

No, the present "German" government DOES fear National Socialism as it
would any other political manifestation that could potentially depose
them from power. National Socialism especially abhorred by the German
and U.S. governments since it represents diametric opposition to their
own ideologies. Examples: Education is "progressing" away from hard
science and rewarded individual achievement and towards emotions and
social tolerance for the less capable. I.e., outcome based education
and Goals 2000. Adolf Hitler seized the assets of international Jewish
banking houses in Germany and replaced their inorganic, debt-based
monetary system with non-interest bearing national credit and
currency. Today, nearly every Western nation operates with a
debt-based monetary system, and, like the Holocaust, any attempt to
expose the fraud of debt-based money with the principles of science is
met with cries of "anti-semitism" from Zionist circles. Hitler and the
NSDAP had a program of eugenics based upon natural law whereas the
government of Germany today goes out of it's way to pump as much
non-White blood into the veins of Germany's culture via immigration
while forcing its citizens to pay for the immigrants' housing, food
and medical care.

The present German government is far more "criminal" to ethnic Germans
than the devastatingeffects of WW2 (which YOU might blame on Adolf
Hitler). Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin and the rest of the communist
promoting Allies could have bombed, murdered, burned, ravaged and
razed Germany into the ground but, they knew that she could rebuild
unless her culture, her racial awareness and her gene pool were
destroyed. This is the current program being implemented in post WW2
Germany by the "German" government.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Thu Jan  9 08:38:33 PST 1997
Article: 91932 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 06:51:48 GMT
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On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 13:33:12 +0000, Chuck Ferree 
wrote:

>Chuck writes:

>One thing Cliff points out in a question is all I intend to deal with 
>and it's the question Cliff mentions about "stock-piling corpses." 
>
>As a credible eyewitness, (to some people at least)  every camp I 
>entered with SHAEF officers, had corpses stock-piled for disposal. In 
>some cases neat stacks of hundreds of skeletal corpses, half the 
>length of a football field, 10-12 feet high. In other cases, large 
>rooms next to the ovens, filled helter-skelter with bodies, a few of 
>which turned out to be still alive. In other cases, dead bodies just 
>scattered all over the camp, where they died. Some in bunks, some just 
>laying round outdoors.

You're confusing two issues, Chuck. Everyone knows that disease,
hunger and acts of war left a lot of individuals dead in the various
camps near the end of the war. No doubt this was an unsanitary
condition and bodies were burned and buried by both the Germans and
the Allies. But, considering the information provided in the newspaper
article I quoted, 12,000 bodies per day were "going up the stacks" at
Auschwitz-Birkenau. Crunching the numbers backward, we discovered that
the Germans were cremating a body every 6.24 minutes (modern
crematories take from 1 to 3 hours to this!). The alleged "gas
chambers" supposedly measured 5 meters by 5 meters and were 1.9 meters
high. Tests have shown that it is sometimes possible to get 10 very
thin individuals onto a 1 sqaure meter area. Therfore, the most that
could have fit into this "gas chamber" would be 250 victims. Dividing
12,000 (the number of bodies alleged to have been cremated daily) by
250 we find that the National Socialists would have to conduct 48
"gassings" in a 24 hour period. That's 30 minutes per "gassing" around
the clock for as long as the 12,000 bodies per day were supposedly
being cremated. Its also important that were assume the crematories,
and every oven, were operating at a 100% duty cycle. 

> In every camp, there was nothing clean or well 
>organized.The inmates who were halfway healthy, rioted at Dachau, at 
>Buchenwald, everything stayed calm no riots or other problems, except 
>the horror and stink of death, and in almost every case human 
>excrement on every corpse. Unbelievable??? Yes, very difficult to 
>comprehend, but it happened and I as well as thousands of other 
>American and British, Russian, Canadian, French, Polish troops and 
>others witnessed some part of this thing we call the Holocaust, which 
>people like Swiger believe didn't happen.

What you've described here, Chuck, has nothing to do with the alleged
mechanizations of the "Holocaust." We're talking about contentions
industrial style murder, not the common miseries of war. 

 >The gas chambers were there, working, testimony and explainations
>from inmates, some British, some Americans, may English speaking
>Europeans. The gas chamber at Mauthausen had been used up to a week
>before the camp was liberated. 

There has NEVER been a demonstrative "gas chamber" described by anyone
that is feasible in engineering. Now you show me this evidence you
have RIGHT NOW! And, gas chambers at Mauthausen?? Even your Jewish
idol Simon Wisenthau admitted in "Stars and Stripes", January 24, 1993
that "there were no extermination camps on German soil." Are you
calling him liar, Chuck?

> If you can ever accept the reality I've presented
>> here on crematories, but you still insist on believing in the
>> "gassings" of millions, consider how many of these "gassing" victims
>> would have had to have been stockpiled awaiting their trip into the
>> ovens! Its ridiculous, isn't it? Have a good day.
>
>NO, CLIFF, IT'S NOT RIDICULOUS.  IT'S TRUE.

No, Chuck, it is utterly absurd.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Fri Jan 10 08:59:01 PST 1997
Article: 92048 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiger's lack of substance
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 06:26:20 GMT
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On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:45:17 +0000, Chuck Ferree 
wrote:

>You say disease, hunger and acts of war left a lot of individuals dead 
>in the various camps near the end of the war. That is true.
>
>I ask you to explain what you mean exactly by "acts of war." By whom? 
>How? What acts of war?
>
Bombs, gunfire, grenades, etc.

Cliff Wrote:
> No doubt this was an unsanitary
>>condition and bodies were burned and buried by both the Germans and
>>the Allies. But, considering the information provided in the newspaper
>>article I quoted, 12,000 bodies per day were "going up the stacks" at
>>Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Chuck Replied:
>A newspaper article, Cliff...common!!! What about history books?

The "history" books make similar claims, Chuck. Look, the point is it
was physically impossible to cremate bodies in 6.24 minutes back in
1940. For crying out loud, even modern crematories take anywhere from
1 to 3 hours to do this and they operate at much higher temperatures!
Plus, the cremation remains, (bones that do not burn) must be
mechanically pulverized. Chuck, you live in a world of make believe.
Grow up!

> Crunching the numbers backward, we discovered that
>>the Germans were cremating a body every 6.24 minutes (modern
>>crematories take from 1 to 3 hours to this!).
>
>That's not the case in every cremation. That is a blanket statement. 
>Don't do that.

Well you just show me information where modern commercial crematories
can do otherwise. Do it now. I searched the Web and found quite a few
sites that offered all the details. 


> measured 5 meters by 5 meters and were 1.9 meters
>>high. Tests have shown that it is sometimes possible to get 10 very
>>thin individuals onto a 1 sqaure meter area. Therfore, the most that
>>could have fit into this "gas chamber" would be 250 victims. Dividing
>>12,000 (the number of bodies alleged to have been cremated daily) by
>>250 we find that the National Socialists would have to conduct 48
>>"gassings" in a 24 hour period. That's 30 minutes per "gassing" around
>>the clock for as long as the 12,000 bodies per day were supposedly
>>being cremated. Its also important that were assume the crematories,
>>and every oven, were operating at a 100% duty cycle. 
>
>Cliff, I've read these numbers from every so-called denier from Giwer 
>to Moran, and this is just math. Doesn't prove anything. 

I really can't believe you'd make such an ignorant statement. The
engineering sciences are based upon the proofs of mathematics. You're
self destructing, Chuck

>>There has NEVER been a demonstrative "gas chamber" described by anyone
>>that is feasible in engineering. Now you show me this evidence you
>>have RIGHT NOW!
>
>List, pal, don't get pushy or you can just stick it all in your ear.

Getting mad, Chuck?

> And, gas chambers at Mauthausen?? Even your Jewish
>>idol Simon Wisenthau admitted in "Stars and Stripes", January 24, 1993
>>that "there were no extermination camps on German soil." Are you
>>calling him liar, Chuck?
>
>No, and Cliff, either you keep this clean and don't get shitty with 
>me, or fuck off right now!!! 

You said there was a gas chamber at Mauthausen which is in Germany. If
there was one, I assume it was used to gas Jews. Simple Simon
Wisenthau says there were NO EXTERMINATION CAMPS ON GERMAN SOIL.
You're obviously calling the man a liar as he would have surely known
about it.

>>> If you can ever accept the reality I've presented
>>>> here on crematories,
>
>Realities? What realities have you presented? Not one. Crunching some 
>numbers means nothing...Giwer does it all the time and he don't know 
>math from shit, Cliff.
>
Evidently Mr. Giwer is a man of logic, common sense and reasoning. Not
someone full of emotion, ego and fantasy like you.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Fri Jan 10 08:59:02 PST 1997
Article: 92050 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nikzor's Mike Stein
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 06:26:24 GMT
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On 8 Jan 1997 22:56:22 -0500, karlpov@explorer2.clark.net (Charles
Power) wrote:

>This is typical denier stupidity. Why is diesel exhaust so poor? Other
>methods may be more efficient, but diesel exhaust was readily available,
>so why wouldn't it be tried?

Have you been following this thread? Obviously not. Consult the
technical data pertaining to the emmisions of a Diesel combustion
engine. Try http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/jhr/v05p-15_berg.html.

> And how does the knowledge to make an 
>engine do various things such as emit noxious gases imply any practical
>knowledge of comparative execution methods?

The point is, according to Mike Stein and others, the Germans adjusted
the fuel/air ratio to increase the percentage of CO in the exhaust. If
this is so, then the Germans were thinking of a more efficient way to
execute victims. The ironic thing in all this is that "stuffing" the
individuals into the alleged "gas chamber" and simply shutting the
door would have been sufficient. But no, the Holocaust mythologists
have to conjure up a story about a Diesel engine that would not start
as an angry German officer stands by watching. This goes on for 2
hours and 49 minutes while the Jews in the gas chamber sing to Yahweh
and cry. In reality, they'd all been dead in about 45 minutes due to
lack of oxygen. 


> It seems we must accept that
>all Germans were either idiots or Renaissance-style geniuses: but in fact
>technical knowledge in one area, such as engine mechanics, says little
>about knowledge of biology. Diesel exhaust killed, and it was readily
>available. Eventually the Nazis found that cyanide could be used safely
>and efficiently to kill faster. No rocket science here.

Do try to evade the Diesel issue. If the Germans really had a plan of
genocide against the Jews they would have come up with a very
efficient means from the start. There would have been none of this
playing around with Diesel exhaust and you know it. The Diesel gas
chamber is yet another stroke of ignorance and fantasy on the part of
Holocaust mythologists. 

>Admittedly Gerstein's account sounds unlikely, but not quite as unlikely
>as you make it. He implied that people were climbing atop each other, and
>that many were small children. The total space, if I interpret a somewhat
>garbled "official" English translation correctly, was 45 cubic meters.

45 cubic meters is very close. So it does not make any difference what
the area was, does it! Go ahead, put as many people in that volume
that suits your irrational mind. But be careful! Every extra Jew you
stuff in there makes the 2 hour and 49 minute duration that much more
unbelievable as all those additional people will be needing oxygen. 

>>ENOUGH OF THIS LIE! Your whole Diesel Holohoax argument hinges upon
>>one item: Ignorance. I've dulled your doubled-edged sword argument
>>and, even if you were to choose either, demonstrated with the laws of
>>nature that "confessions" and "testimonies" like Gerstein's are
>>prevarications.
>
>Pardon me, but what motive did Kurt Gerstein have to prevaricate about
>anything? 

I can't say. I do not believe the man was ever found, nor even his
body, after signing "his confession."

>>                Go pound your Talmud, maybe Yahweh will help you come
>>up with something more plausible.
>
>Gerstein was, of course, a committed Christian.

I was referring to Mike Stein who claimed in a prior post that he is a
"Talmud thumping Joo."

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Sat Jan 11 07:21:36 PST 1997
Article: 92194 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:57:07 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:26:18 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
>
># The alleged "gas chambers" supposedly measured 5
># meters by 5 meters and were 1.9 meters high.

Daniel Keren Replied:
>The gas chambers in Kremas II and III in Birkenau
>were 30 x 7 x 2 meters. This is not only known from
>the plans, it can also be easily verified, as they are
>still there today.

The Leichenkeller and shower rooms have indeed been alleged gas
chambers but, there is no forensic evidence to support this.
Nonetheless, the measurements I posted are correct based upon the
"affidavit" of Gerstein who is quoted here. ".........The rooms are 5
by 5 meters and 1.90 meters high." This equals 47.5 cubic meters.
Let's confine our argument, for the time being, to Gerstein's
"confession." Fact is, if you accept the laws of nature and science,
the victims would have been dead long before the Germans finally
started the Diesel engine (2 hours and 49 minutes).

>Perhaps you should really do some reading? You obviously
>have no idea about the history of the event you're
>trying to deny.

For this particular argument, I really do not see the necessity of
being familiar with the layout of Auschwitz-Birkenau. We are given
enough data to perform a scientific analysis of the allegation which
is an obvious lie.


># 12,000 bodies per day were "going up the stacks" at
># Auschwitz-Birkenau.
>
>Why can't you "revisionists" handle third-grade math? On
>the average, far less people than 12,000 were killed daily
>in Auschwitz. If it was indeed 12,000, the total number
>of deaths over 5 years would have been 12,000*5*360 =
>21,600,000, while the real figure was about 1.3 million.

I agree with you totally. One simply has to run the numbers out to see
just how many corpses could have been cremated according to the
legend. I examined a claim that said the rate achieved was 12,000
bodies cremated per day. I do not care if this rate was achieved for
one hour or one year, it is physically impossible today and it is
absurd to suggest that the German National Socialists had the
technology back in the 1940s. 

>Why do you have to keep posting such incredibly idiotic
>articles, proving that you are both very ignorant and
>extremely stupid? Do you get a pleasure out of this? How
>odd.
>
I have yet to see anyone dispute my findings in an engineering
fashion. Sure, illusionists like yourself jump in and make hollow,
derisive statements but, NONE of you demonstrate how such rates could
have been accomplished with a scientific argument. And, yes, I get a
lot of pleasure telling the truth.
>
Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei



From cswiger@westco.net Sat Jan 11 07:21:37 PST 1997
Article: 92235 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The curiously unresponsive Mr. Swiger
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:57:11 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:52:15 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes:
>
># In 1943, the New York Times published the claims of
># those who reported seeing two million Jews being
># murdered in steam chambers at Treblinka.
>
>There are also "testimonies" about people melting into
>puddles of "melted human flesh", and burning into a
>"fine layer of undulating grey ash" in Dresden, although
>they were in closed cellars and the fire didn't even
>touch them. We know that real events can create inaccurate
>testimonies.
>
>So what now, schleppo? You're going to deny Dresden was
>bombed? Hey, fair is fair. If you claim "some inaccurate
>testimony about Treblinka ===> Treblinka is a hoax", then,
>well, it's only fair that you'll also claim "some
>inaccurate testimony about Dresden ===> Dresden is a hoax".

You make two arguments here. 1. If Treblinka is a hoax, based upon
testimony, then Dresden is a hoax based upon testimony. 2. Humans were
reduced to ashes at Dresden without fire actually touching the bodies,
according to testimony, therefore it is possible that Jews could have
been steamed into the same condition at Treblinka. Once again,
testimony should be corroborated with other forms of evidence,
particularly forensic and scientific evidence. I do not know a lot
about the Dresden incident. But, if bodies were indeed "melted", as
you suggest, then I would assume there was physical evidence (the
bodies themselves) to corroborate this. I know there were a lot of
phosphorous bombs, which are an incindiary device, dropped on Dresden.
I do not have the technical data on phosphorous bombs, but I'm willing
the data would support the claim that individuals can be reduced
considerably by their burning action. Basically the "steam bath" form
of execution has pretty much been dropped as I'm sure you're well
aware. No serious Holocaust mythologist suggests this any longer and
for obvious reasons. There just simply isn't any hard evidence to
corroborate the allegations. Like all other Holocaust "evidence", it
is all based upon testimony. 

>....... and what is the source
>of these erroneous reports?

Gee, I don't know. Its your argument, you tell me.

>The victims were indeed murdered by locking them in a
>closed chamber and pumping the exhaust of a powerful
>engine into it. Why, then, did some reports apparently
>claim that steam was used? (I use the word "apparently",
>because one report of the Polish underground I've read
>states that they don't know how the killing is done, and
>suggests steam as a possibility).
>
I suppose the imaginations of some simply run wild. Dan, it does not
matter how much or how many different methods are conjured up in
testimony. Western cultures place more emphasis on forensic and
scientific evidence than "witnessing." I'm sure their are millions
upon millions of Christians that will testify to the existence of God.
But does this prove his existence?

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Sat Jan 11 07:21:38 PST 1997
Article: 92237 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 06:57:09 GMT
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On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:03:24 GMT, scholz@watsci.uwaterloo.ca (Guenter
A. Scholz) wrote:


>	In all fairness, Daniel, right or wrong, Swiger used as a source for
>this a respected US newspaper (Boston Globe I seem to remember but not sure
>anymore). Sooooo, it would seem that `such incredibly idiotic articles' should
>not be written in newspapers in the first place.  I wonder, does anyone who
>participates in these `discussions' ever try to correct the nonsense printed
>in the newspapers in the first place so that Mr. Swiger does not have an
>argument at all?

I think you know the answer to this one. The insight provided in your
paragraph above indicates you see through the Holocaust propaganda. 

>	Why does the US media so often have a `need' to exaggerate what is
>terrible enough in the first place and thereby giving birth to these nonsense
>discussions of `arithmetic'.

I be quite forward here. The U.S. major media is controlled by
Ashkenazi Jews. One is a fool to argue otherwise and it might be
better to argue that they aren't necessarily acting in a malevolent
manner. This is certainly more difficult to prove and is based upon a
lot of opinion upon which the Holocausters can easily prey. For the
Who's Who, as relates to Jewish control of the media check out
http://www.natvan.com and http://www.natall.com.

Holocaust promotionists are rolling the dice on the ignorance of the
masses. Most people probably did read the Globe article and reel in
horror without even considering the engineering feasability of such an
event. This is why the Jews are mustering to shut up any discussion of
the Holocaust. 

>	Specifically, Daniel, why do you not address the SOURCE of this mis-
>information?
>
For the same reason sharks don't attack lawyers; professional
etiquette>

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei	



From cswiger@westco.net Sun Jan 12 06:34:14 PST 1997
Article: 92399 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Where Are These Super Ovens Designed by the Super Race?
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:33:30 GMT
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On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:47:09 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

>In article <32D6713D.1936@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Actually, one may find an intact Topf coke-fired double-muffle furnace in
>KL Mauthausen today. It was built under the New Hospital at KL Mauthhausen
>in July of 1944. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.110-111.) 

Hi Mark: What individuals, like Ferree here, fail to EVER accept is
that the technology in circa 1940 could in no way ever have achieved
such exaggerated cremation rates. I've permitted these illusionists,
like Ferree, to theoretically stuff 3 to 4 Jews in the "muffles" and
their claims are still absurd when analyzed with engineering
techniques. I really hate to divert here, but Ferree is one of those
"I'm a WW2 hero" egocentrics. The man makes claims that he was at
various concentration camps and once told me he piloted some top brass
into communist occupied Poland after the war. Maybe he did? But it is
strange that no Western investigators were permitted to enter this
area after the war, but old Chuckie Boy and his entourage somehow were
able to penetrate the Iron Curtain. 

I took the trouble to wade through Chuck's "stall of horse manure" as
relates to Topf and Sons' crematoria. He is one of those individuals
that takes a little fact and mixes it with a a lot of fiction. Sure
the National Socialists had crematoria but Chuck assumes you'll buy
into his fabalism and accept that these circa 1940 crematoriums could
out do state-of-the-art crematoriums by at least a factor of 10. I'm
marveled by the blatent ignorance of some.

Chuck Writes:
>Additionally, one may also find two Topf coke-fired double-muffle furnace
>in KL Auschwitz today. They were rebuilt after the camp's liberation from
>parts found in the camp. (cf. Ibid. p.154.) 

You're darn right they were "rebuilt." But no one was allowed to see
the reconstruction until the late 1950s. And, they were rebuilt by the
communists who did a real lousy job due to the fact that there have
been 3 forensic analyses at the site all of which claim that it was
scientifically impossible to have ever gassed individuals there or
cremated them at the alleged rate.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei



From cswiger@westco.net Sun Jan 12 06:34:15 PST 1997
Article: 92402 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Cliff Swiger's Doin' the National Alliance Two-Step
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:33:32 GMT
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On 11 Jan 1997 08:48:02 -0800, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <32d72f09.432235958@news.dmsc.net>, 
>cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
>
>>I'll be quite forward here. The U.S. major media is controlled by
>>Ashkenazi Jews. One is a fool to argue otherwise and it might be
>
>Ah, Mr. Swiger believes that white folks are simply too stupid to 
>think for themselves. Does this mean (a) that Mr. Swiger does not
>consider himself "white," or (b) Mr. Swiger considers himself more
>white than simply "white?"

I do not see what my racist inclinations have to do with my contention
here. I'm telling you, and anyone else, that Ashkenazi Jews control
the U.S. major media. Additionally, I provide lurkers with the website
where they can peruse the information for themselves
(http://www.natvan.com and/or http://www.natall.com). Once again, the
facts are irrefutable. However, you may maintain the argument that
these Ashkenazi Jews aren't involved in some sort of a conspiracy.
But, you would be idiotic to deny the facts. And yes, I am a member of
the National Alliance and support everything it stands for.

>(Where have we heard that opinion expressed before? Ah, yes, it's
>That Old National Alliance Two-Step, as danced by William "Trust
>me, stupid white person" Pierce and his National Alliance rat
>pack... why am I not surprised?)

You're either ignorant or a liar. As I said, the FACT is that
Ashkenazi Jews do indeed control the major media here in the U.S. 

>As he has made this claim, I assume that he is now prepared to 
>substatiate it by providing the answers to the questions which follow.

>   How many newspaper publishers are there in North America?
>   How many are privately held?
>   How many of those are held by Jewish investors?
>   How many are traded on the exchange?
>   How many are held by controlling Jewish investors?
>   How large is their market share?

As I write,I do not know the answers to these these questions. If you,
or any other lurkers, will simply visit the websites I posted you will
see the corporate ladder work of the major affiliates. I think most
individuals will recognize ABC, CBS and NBC as the major television
networks in this country. Their history of Ashkenazi Jew domination is
well documented. You will find the same applies to newspapers,
magazines, radio and the entertainment industry. Visit those web
sites.

>   "Reality? I don't think so. Its a PERCEPTION. Reality tells us 
>   things like even state-of-the art crematoria take 90 minutes to 
>   cremate a corpse at temperatures hundreds of degrees hotter than 
>   those available in circa 1940. But, the PERCEPTION is that the 
>   Germans could somehow cremate bodies at ten times that rate!" 
>   (Swiger, Final Solution)
>
>In response, I have asked you, seven times, to explain how the time 
>required to cremate a single corpse in a modern furnace has any 
>relevance to the Holocaust. 

I have stated before it does not rule out a Jew Holocaust. It does,
however, demonstrate the magnitude of distortion relating to the same.
The Holocaust mythologists did a really poor job establishing the
foundation for their myth. Sooner than later the Holocausters are
going to be forced to bring their numbers claim into the arena of
plausibility. Once tis is done, focus will shift onto the other
audacious claims of "gas chambers", execution orders, et al without
the confusion over cremation rates. Are you ready to elevate yourself
onto this plane?

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei



From cswiger@westco.net Mon Jan 13 07:13:55 PST 1997
Article: 92568 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Simplifications by Swiger
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:33:33 GMT
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On 11 Jan 1997 00:01:16 -0500, karlpov@explorer2.clark.net (Charles
Power) wrote:

>Cliff Swiger  wrote:
>
>>The point is, according to Mike Stein and others, the Germans adjusted
>>the fuel/air ratio to increase the percentage of CO in the exhaust. If
>>this is so, then the Germans were thinking of a more efficient way to
>>execute victims.
>
>They were thinking of a number of things. They wanted something
>that would kill reasonably quickly, reasonably cleanly,
>reasonably conveniently, reasonably safely, reasonably cheaply,
>and at a reasonable distance. 

How do you know what "they were thinking"? Or are you simply
expressing hollow accusations like the rest of the Holocaust
mythologists? Etch the following into your convolutions: There has
never been produced a German order for the "Holocaust style"
extermination of the Jews. There has never been produced an autopsy
report showing any of the victims discovered in the German
concentration camps to have died from "gassing." The cremation rates
alleged are an absolute insult to scientific methodolgy. There has
never been produced a workable "gas chamber" as alleged by ANY
Holocaust survivor, witness, or outside source. Now here you come,
telling the rest of us, exactly what the National Socialists "were
thinking"as though you sat at the table with Adolf Hitler and his top
adjutants scheming the whole plan. All you've done here is express
your biased, unfounded opinion while slopping disgrace upon the
escutcheon of Western jurisprudence by suggesting that your own
theory, as to what the National Socialists "were thinking", should be
admitted as prima facia evidence against them. Burned any witches
lately?  

>The particular "story" to which you refer came from an
>eyewitness, Kurt Gerstein. In large part (though with significant
>variations), it was confirmed by another eyewitness.

And their testimony would not stand a prayer in a circle of scientists
although it found favor in Nuremberg.

>Depends. You seem to be assuming that the chambers were airtight.
>I don't think Gerstein made such a specification.

Well then, just how air tight was it not? Was there enough outside air
infiltration to sustain the victims inside the "gas chamber" for 2
hours and 49 minutes? There are a lot of variables involved here.
Nonetheless, you are operating on the premise that the German National
Socialist carried out such a deed and tailoring all your arguments in
this direction. Perhaps you would have made a good prosecutor at
Nuremberg but you must remember that the burden of proof is on you to
substantiate the criminal act notwithstanding the mass of "testimony."
I often wonder if individuals, like yourself, would agree to the same
set of rules for criminal procedure doled out to the National
Socialists if you were charged with a criminal act.

> With monoxide,
>of course, a hermetic seal isn't necessary. Even if some gets
>out, it will dissipate in open air. An advantage, you see, over
>cyanide. At the cost of speed. Eventually, facilities could be
>set up which made cyanide easier to handle, but not right away.

All you're saying here is that it is possible to kill someone with
carbon monoxide. People commit suicide this way all the time in
automobiles. Once again, you're making an allegation and your only
evidence is the testimony of those who were politically oppressed by
the accused and the so called confession of Gerstein which is full of
holes.

>>Don't try to evade the Diesel issue. If the Germans really had a plan of
>>genocide against the Jews they would have come up with a very
>>efficient means from the start. There would have been none of this
>>playing around with Diesel exhaust and you know it.
>
>Always nice to be informed of the state of my knowledge by some
>denier moron. You could just as easily say that if we wanted to
>send men to the moon, we would have gone ahead and done it,
>without all the putzing around with chimpanzees in orbit which
>preceded the moon landing. Sorry, but real life doesn't work that
>way.

You've got a lot of room to talk attempting to suggest to me just
exactly what "they (the National Socialists) were thinking." You're
obviously going to extremes here. The Germans are excellent engineers
and I'm of the opinion that IF they had set their minds on "gassing"
Jews they would not have begun experimentation while carrying on a war
which eventually was being fought on two fronts. Its true I'm a
Holocaust denier, but I do not think I'm a moron for basing my
conclusions on natural law, engineering principles and standard
criminal procedures in courts of law. Maybe you make your own
decisions based on other parameters. 

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei



From cswiger@westco.net Mon Jan 13 07:13:56 PST 1997
Article: 92613 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Holocaust and Jewish Lies
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 06:33:36 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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It should be quite obvious that Jews and other German concentration
camp inmates would certainly harbor ill feelings toward their
incarcerators. This suggestion alone certainly acertains that many of
them might step forward with testimony to incriminate any National
Socialist brought up on criminal charges. Most of the testimony
offered by so called "eyewitnesses" was sadly given judicial notice at
Nuremberg and other "War Crimes" tribunals after WW2 but would have
been been ridiculed by a panel of scientists, engineers and experts as
it is today. Personal and political motivations do indeed inspire
individuals to commit perjury on the witness stand even if it involves
a sentence of death for the falsely accused. Consider this lying Jew
who actually commited murder himself:

Eliyahu Rosenberg was the star witness against John Demjanjuk in the
Jerusalem trial of 1986-1987. Demjanjuk was accused of being "Ivan the
Terrible" of Treblinka. During the trial, it was revealed that Jew
Rosenberg had given a deposition in 1947 in which he said "Ivan the
Terrible" had been killed by concentration camp inmates. He tried to
lie his way out of this by saying the information he gave in 1947 was
based on hearsay and was erroneous. Late in the trial, however, the
defense team for Demjanjuk produced a document, hand written in
Yiddish no less by Rosenberg himself, for a Warsaw historial
institute, declaring he had PERSONALLY helped kill "Ivan the
Terrible!"

I think this example indicates to just what length Holocaust
mythologists will lie in order to establish their myth. 

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei
 


From cswiger@westco.net Mon Jan 13 16:27:06 PST 1997
Article: 92719 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.baltics,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Dan Leonik: Doing that National Alliance Two-Step
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:23:13 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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On 11 Jan 1997 20:18:46 -0800, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>Like all National Alliance members, Mr. Leonik believes that white
>people are pretty stupid. There's nothing wrong with that, of
>course, except that Mr. Leonik claims that the National Alliance
>is a (get this!) "white advocacy" organization.

>Consider what he implies in his opening salvo - those Wascally
>Joos are just too darned smart for white folks... in short, white
>folks are too stupid to govern themselves, manage their own
>affairs, or protect themselves from "termites."

Ken, as a member of the National Alliance, let me expound on this
particular section of dialog beween you and Mr. Leonik. If we limit
the term "Jew" to that particular group of people defined as Ashkenazi
Jews, Mr. Leonik has a valid argument although his presentation may
have offended you. There are two principle categories of an IQ test:
verbal and non-verbal. When we consider "AVERAGE" IQ test results
Ashkenazi Jews score higher in the verbal area than any other race of
man. Asians score the highest "ON THE AVERAGE" in the non-verbal area.

Most every pro-White activist understands these facts. This is one
example of how labeling us "White supremacists" has no merit. I've
often been accused of being a "White supremacist" and my response is,
"In what ways do we imply that we are "supreme" to others?" Actually,
the White race does not rank at the top in many areas. We do not have
the highest IQs in either the verbal nor non-verbal skills. We are by
far not the most agile at the majority of sports. Evidence does
suggest we may be the strongest, in lifting heavy weights for example.
If the White race has particular gifts bestowed upon it by nature it
is our ability to adapt, build and organize. I'll paraphrase Darwin
here: It is not the strongest nor the most intelligent creature that
survives and evolves, it is the one most readily adaptable to change.

Cliff Swiger
National Alliance Member



From cswiger@westco.net Mon Jan 13 23:20:30 PST 1997
Article: 92759 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust and Jewish Lies
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 06:59:06 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:27:47 GMT, BOb@the.helm (Brian Oblivion) wrote:

>>cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) writes:
>>
>>>It should be quite obvious that Jews and other German concentration
>>>camp inmates would certainly harbor ill feelings toward their
>>>incarcerators.
>>
>>One could with equal validity say the same about Japanese and Japanese-
>>American concentration camp inmates. But this has not somehow led to 
>>accusations of genocide, or even of widespread and routine brutality.
>>Your speculations that Jews fabricate such allegations is basically an
>>excuse to disregard historical reality.  

Many of them DO harbor ill feelings against the United States for this
act. Not long ago they were seeking reparations for their
incarceration. The decision of the US to imprison the Japs did not
occur until the empire of Japan bombed Pearl Harbor whereas National
Socialist Germany had a plan to deport and relocate Jews from the
beginning. Hardly a parallel you've drawn here.

>They did in fact lead to wide spread allegations of cannibalism
>which special emphasis upon the Japanese taste for the human gall
>bladder.  You are woefully ignorant of the war crimes the Japanese
>were accused of.  (Note there were also confessions to cannibalism and
>plans for gassing people.  Note also the soviet sources of much of
>it.)  

Yes, I am ignorant on the allegations leveled against the Japanese by
the Allies. But, I do not find it out of the ordinary for a government
to vilify it's enemy in war. This is exactly what happened to the
Germans. I'm quite surprised you'd raise this point without the
foresight of seeing it come right back around to you.

>JAPANESE WAR CRIMES TRIALS 

I read the remainder of your post on the above. Its really amazing the
imagination of some, isn't it?

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Tue Jan 14 02:36:01 PST 1997
Article: 92789 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Witnesses say, "No Holocaust"
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 04:47:47 GMT
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On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:48:32 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>There are cyanide compounds both on the walls and the
>ventilation grills. I told you already: try to do some
>minimal reading about the event you're trying to deny.

I'm fully aware of the findings there. If you are attempting to shift
the argument away from Gerstein's "confession" and onto the morgues at
Auschwitz-Birkenau this is fine with me. But let's pick one and stick
with it. The morgues at Aushwitz-Birkenau no doubt were disinfected
with Zyklon-B and this would explain the trace amounts of cyanide on
the walls. Similarly, one would expect to find human deposits attached
to the walls of any crematory's exhaust stack.There have been three
scientific and forensic analyses conducted on these morgues to
validate their use as an execution gas chamber and all three have
concluded that it would have been engineeringly impossible to utilize
these structures for this purpose. Obviously a mass amount of totally
inaccurate, contradictory, and hysterical "eyewitness" testimony can
convince some that natural law and scientific methodology don't know
what their talking about. This is a sad commentary on such individuals
who simply have no grasp on reality. You, and others in this
newsgroup, I think are fully aware of the fact that this Holocaust
event is nothing more than a myth. But, your decision to propagate
this myth, while acknowledging honestly in your own mind that it is a
farce, simply indicates you are up to political no good. Through
propaganda and the media, the Holocaust has been established as a
historical fact. But, eventually science will extirpate this nonsense;
a reality also that you understand but, for reasons known perhaps only
to yourself, you continue to confuse, lie, and mislead others with
your quagmire of fiction. 

># Nonetheless, the measurements I posted are correct based
># upon the "affidavit" of Gerstein who is quoted here.
># ".........The rooms are 5 by 5 meters and 1.90 meters high."
>
>But he was talking about Belzec camp. I am talking about
>Auschwitz camp. These are two different camps. Belzec is
>not Auschwitz, and Auschwitz is not Belzec. Belzec is one
>camp, and Auschwitz is another camp. Belzec and Auschwitz
>are not the same.

Thank you for clearing this up for me! . I'm fully aware that
Gerstein "testified" about the Diesel gassings at "Belcek." Now that
you mention it, perhaps some of the contents of his "confession" are
in order here. When describing the "gas chamber" he notes "At the
back, invisible wooden doors." Now if there were wooden doors at the
back of the "gas chamber" isn't it strange that the Jewish victims
would not have attempted to beat their way though these doors? Or is
it that the doors were "invisible" only to Jews? But did the Jews try
to force their way out? No! they held hands and sang to Yahweh for 2
hours and 49 minutes while Unterscharfuehrer Heckenholt tried to start
the Diesel engine!

According to Gerstein, after the dead were picked clean of the gold in
their teeth, and not failing to overlook their anuses and genitals for
valuables, the bodies were deposited "into large ditches of about 100
by 20 by 12 meters. Here, the corpses were allowed to ferment for
several days, rising and then falling and eventually covered with
about four inches of sand.

How preposterous! Have YOU read any of this? Let me ask you, have any
of these mass graves of Jews at or near Belzec EVER been discovered?
The answer is a resounding NO! But as far as your concerned,
Gerstein's "eyewitness" testimony is sufficient prima facia evidence
to convict and execute German National Socialists at Nuremberg and
other witch trials.  

>Hello? Is this sinking in? I can elaborate further if not.

I would very much appreciate your elaboration as I enjoy slicing and
dicing your fantasies and lies for all the world to appreciate.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Tue Jan 14 02:36:02 PST 1997
Article: 92790 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Cliff Swiger's Doin' the National Alliance Two-Step
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 04:47:49 GMT
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On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 10:10:45 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

>> >In article <32d72f09.432235958@news.dmsc.net>, 
>> >cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
>> >
>> >>I'll be quite forward here. The U.S. major media is controlled by
>> >>Ashkenazi Jews. One is a fool to argue otherwise and it might be

>>> >(Where have we heard that opinion expressed before? Ah, yes, it's
>> >That Old National Alliance Two-Step, as danced by William "Trust
>> >me, stupid white person" Pierce and his National Alliance rat
>> >pack... why am I not surprised?)

>> As I write,I do not know the answers to these these questions. 
>
>And yet Mr. Swiger, in acknowledged ignorance, claims that it is _fact_
>"that Ashkenazi Jews do indeed control the major media here in the U.S."
>
>Incredible. Stupidty in action. And anti-Semitism, lest we forget. 

Your vicious name calling aside, the facts about Ashkenazi Jewish
control of the major media can be found at our web sites
http://www.natvan.com and http://www.natall.com. As I said before, one
would be better off to argue as to whether the Ashkenazi Jews, who
control the media, are acting in a benevolent or malevolent manner.
Due to the length of the article, it is not practical to print it in
this newsgroup. Simply access the web sites mentioned and look for the
title, "Who Rules America?" All the facts are there.

>For those interested in proof of the Nazi Mr. Swiger's ignorant Holocaust
>denial, vile Nazi beliefs, anti-Semitism, absolute intellectual
>dishonesty, and his outright lies, please visit:

I visit Nikzor myself just to peruse the files it has on me. One thing
I've noted is Nikzor's tactic of picking and choosing the files it
opts to keep on me for any lurker's viewing pleasure. Unless I've
missed them, I never see the messages I've posted which destroy the
claims of exponetial cremation rates when compared to state-of-the-art
crematoria. Nor the ones that expose the ridiculous "eyewitness"
testimony about "gas chambers" and crematoria. Nikzor does not follow
it's own creed, it censors what messages appear at the site for
political purposes.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei



From cswiger@westco.net Tue Jan 14 02:36:03 PST 1997
Article: 92800 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust and Jewish Lies
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 06:59:05 GMT
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On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:12:48 +0000, Chuck Ferree 
wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>Swiger, singles out one possible crime maybe committed by a Jewish 
>person, and concludes that the Holocaust is all Jewish lies. Now is 
>this a nincompoop or what?

Chuck, Demajanjuk was on trial for his life. This Jewish inmate lied
in an effort to have the man executed. I served this one up just to
point out to what lengths some people will go seeking revenge.

>Yeah that's logical, and it's also possible that American and other 
>Allied troops who helped these Nazi prisoners gain their freedom, 
>might also harbor ill feelings toward these cruel SS bastards. I know 
>that I do.

You've mad this quite clear.

> Consider this lying Jew
>who actually commited murder himself:
>
>Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. And maybe the killing wasn't murder. 

Either way the man presented himself as a notorious liar did he not?
And, there is a difference between killing and murder. I trust you
know the difference.

>If this happened, it wouldn't have been murder. 

Are you implying that because the man was held  prisoner he could
avoid murder charges for killing his captor? Does this hold true in
all cases, or just the ones that fit into your particular politics?

> Late in the trial, however, the
>defense team for Demjanjuk produced a document, hand written in
>Yiddish no less by Rosenberg himself, for a Warsaw historial
>institute, declaring he had PERSONALLY helped kill "Ivan the
>Terrible!"
>
>Maybe so, but it wasn't murder. 

What is your definition of murder, Chuck?

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei




From cswiger@westco.net Tue Jan 14 10:11:23 PST 1997
Article: 92833 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Chuck re Swiger
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:23:15 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
Lines: 34
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On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 16:25:43 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
wrote:

>How about this?
>
>From the Hoess interogation at Nuremberg on page 17:
>
>Q: Now you told us you had facilities for 130,000. If you add up all
>those figures they amount to a much greater number than 130,000. How
>could you accommodate all these people?
>
>A: They were not supposed to be employed in work there, but they were
>supposed to be exterminated.

>Hoess was commanding officer at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Mike, come on now. The Hoess "affidavit" has been torn apart by
Revisionists for years. I'm really surprised to see you use it here.
Aside from Hoess' family being threatened with bodily harm if they did
not reveal his whereabouts, Hoess was tortured in order to exact a
"confession" from him. In fact, one of the interrogators, a Jew,
confessed in recent years to the torture of Hoess. I'm sure you're
well aware of this and are simply rolling the dice that any lurkers
who happened upon your post would not know the facts surrounding the
Hoess "affidavit".

I'll reiterate: It makes no difference how much testimony is produced,
or from who it came in the case of the Holocaust. None of the
"eyewitness" testimony or details of the various confessions can be
corroborated with any physical, forensic or scientific evidence.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei  



From cswiger@westco.net Tue Jan 14 10:11:24 PST 1997
Article: 92834 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Swiger's lack of substance
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:23:16 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <32d9ceac.32662417@news.dmsc.net>
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On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:37:05 GMT, BOb@the.helm (Brian Oblivion) wrote:

>>> On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:45:17 +0000, Chuck Ferree 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> >You say disease, hunger and acts of war left a lot of individuals dead 
>>> >in the various camps near the end of the war. That is true.
>>> >
>>> >I ask you to explain what you mean exactly by "acts of war." By whom? 
>>> >How? What acts of war?
>>> >
>>> Bombs, gunfire, grenades, etc.
>>
>>And by whom, Mr. Swiger? And when where these "acts of war" taken? 

Geesh, where do I start? Didn't Chuck Yeager brag about strafing
German farmers in their fields? What about the phosphorus bombing of
civilians in Dresden? And then there's the Lindeman Plan which set out
to raze the entire nation of Germany to the ground. Roadways were
blown out, railways destroyed, this cut off a lot of transportation
whereby food and medical supplies could not be shipped in areas where
it was needed most. Many starved and died of disease.

>>Incorrect. As can been seen below, according to the Danuta Czech, it took
>>40 minutes to incinerate 45 corpses in the 15 muffles of Krema II. That's
>>an average of litle over a corspe per minute per muffle. And this was
>>thought to be "an unexpectedly long time" by the SS and engineers present.

I'm unfamiliar with this "Danuta Czech" but this claim you print here
is the most outlandish I've ever heard. Where can I get a copy of this
allegation? It will provide me with good ammunition in future debates.
Nonetheless, it takes modern crematories 1 to 3 hours to incinerate a
corpse and the bones (cremation remains) must still be pulverized.
Well, these "SS and engineers" telling a whopper of a fib. The
crematories at Auschwitz-Birkenau operated at hundreds of degrees less
than state-of-the-art models and they did not employ a direct flame to
the corpse.

>	UFO abductions are also proven by testimony.  

Oh my. What this?

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Tue Jan 14 10:11:25 PST 1997
Article: 92835 of alt.revisionism
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From: cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Charles Power's Closed Mind
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:23:17 GMT
Organization: Donna Marie Software & Consulting, Inc.
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Cliff Swiger Wrote: 
> >How do you know what "they were thinking"?

Charles Power Replied:
> You were telling us that since the Germans wanted a more
> efficient way of killing Jews, they would never have bothered
> with diesel. So it seems you're the one first claiming mind-
> reading abilities. I applied a mysterious faculty called "common
> sense" to list several goals which may have come into play other
> than "efficiency" (killing speed).

One could brainstorm a number of ways to kill people. Your adroitness
is noted here. But, your will-o-the wisp that ANY killing action
undertaken by the German National Socialists confirms the industrial
application of genocide against the Jews known as the "Holocaust" is
quite inappropriate. 

Cliff Swiger Wrote:
> >              Etch the following into your convolutions: There has
> >never been produced a German order for the "Holocaust style"
> >extermination of the Jews.

Charles Power Replied:
> That's certainly interesting phrasing. So I guess any
> inconvenient evidence which turns up will be dismissed because it
> doesn't fit your definition of "Holocaust style". There is, of
> course, copious documentation that the perpetrators were aware of
> such orders, and that the Nazis took care to ensure that the
> orders themselves would not survive, supposing that they could
> thus deceive some morons that they therefore could not have
> existed. The amazing thing is that such morons exist.

If the "copious doucumentation" you speak of here exists, then the
"Nazis" didn't do such a good job ensuring "that the orders themselves
would not survive." Come on, what are you REALLY pointing to here? The
Wannsee Protocol? Go ahead, "Make my day."

The "Holocaust Style" method I'm speaking of is as relates to an
industrial application of gassing victims en mass and cremating the
victims as alleged. You may have theories of your own that the German
National Socialists killed Jews in other ways such as mass shooting,
steaming, meat grinders or forcing them to swallow goldfish. I would
just like to see some evidence offered up besides the trite
"eyewitness" accounts and extorted confessions. What do you have to
offer Charles? 

Cliff Swiger Wrote:
> >                           There has never been produced an autopsy
> >report showing any of the victims discovered in the German
> >concentration camps to have died from "gassing."

Charles Power Replied:
> Big surprise, since the bodies were destroyed. Do I take it that
> gassing is the only method you accept as "Holocaust style"? So
> deliberate introduction of toxic substances in medical
> experiments, starvation, beating, shooting, exposure, etc. etc.
> etc. don't count?

No, the latter do not count. I am focusing on the industrial gassing
and cremation processes. This is what I mean by "Holocaust Style."
However, I remember as a child seeing photgraphs of box cars full of
emaciated corpses and being told "they were gassed by the Nazis." This
was a blatent lie. Chew on it Charles, all those bodies strung about,
shoved in railroad cars, and supposedly buried in mass graves
(although none have ever been discovered) and NOT ONE gassing victim.
Where's your evidence (other than "testimony") that someone, ANYONE,
was "gassed?"
 
Cliff Swiger Wrote:
> >There has
> >never been produced a workable "gas chamber" as alleged by ANY
> >Holocaust survivor, witness, or outside source.

Charles Power Replied:
> Big surprise, as the Nazis did their best to destroy the evidence
> as they abandoned the extermination camps. Curiously, there is a
> fair amount of documentary evidence, including plans for
> "showers" which are so detailed to include showerheads but
> somehow manage to overlook any plumbing behind them.

We have a "reconstructed" version put together for us by the Soviets
in Poland. There have been three forensic tests conducted at this
"extermination" camp all of which corroborate one another and conclude
no gassings could have taken place there. Yea, I've heard about the
showerheads. I've also read eyewitness testimony that WATER came out
of those showerheads! Imagine that!

Charles Power Wrote:
> >>The particular "story" to which you refer came from an
> >>eyewitness, Kurt Gerstein. In large part (though with significant
> >>variations), it was confirmed by another eyewitness.

Cliff Swiger Replied:
> >And their testimony would not stand a prayer in a circle of scientists
> >although it found favor in Nuremberg.

Charles Power Replied:
> What circle of scientists, as opposed to ignorant, unqualified
> denier scum like Leuchter, have ever objected to it?

How about Walter Luftl and Gemar Rudolf? How do you like your crow?

Charles Power Wrote:
> >>Depends. You seem to be assuming that the chambers were airtight.
> >>I don't think Gerstein made such a specification.

Cliff Swiger Replied:
> >Well then, just how air tight was it not?

Charles Power Replied:
> Gee, Cliff, I don't know. I was trying to point out that our
> knowledge here is imperfect. Since various objections of yours
> depend upon premises not in evidence, they fall. I think that's
> what science is about.

You mean I can't simply say the "gas chamber" in question was
hermetically sealed and its accepted as true? What if I gathered all
the Holocaust deniers together and we all said the "gas chamber" was
hermetically sealed? I'm talking mass testimony here, would you accept
it then? If you don't, why can't you apply the same logic to all that
pro-Holocaust testimony?

Cliff Swiger Wrote:
> >Perhaps you would have made a good prosecutor at
> >Nuremberg but you must remember that the burden of proof is on you to
> >substantiate the criminal act notwithstanding the mass of "testimony."

Charles Power Replied:
> Your wording here is confusing, or more precisely confused, which
> is fairly typical of deniers. What you seem to want to say is
> that eyewitness testimony is not evidence. Surprise: eyewitness
> testimony is what is called in legal circles "direct evidence".

Oh its evidence. But its not as weighted as physical evidence of which
there is is practically nil in support of the Jew Holocaust. If you'd
take some time to examine some of this so called "eyewitness"
testimony that offered up at the War Crimes Trials you'll discover
that most of it was HEARSAY evidence yet was given judicial notice in
a CRIMINAL trial. This is a shameful travesty.

Cliff Swiger Wrote:
> >                                                 Its true I'm a
> >Holocaust denier, but I do not think I'm a moron for basing my
> >conclusions on natural law, engineering principles and standard
> >criminal procedures in courts of law.

Charles Power Replied:
> You base your conclusions on your mindless bigotry and on lies
> you've been fed from standard denier sources.

Is that what I said? I can see that science gets under your skin
too.

Cliff Swiger
Wahrheit macht frei


From cswiger@westco.net Wed Jan 15 11:41:13 PST 1997
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