The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996/swiger.0396


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Subject:  #462564-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463402
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:06:55

George:

CGS<>

>>Since you seem to be the one who doubts this, why don't you do more
checking?<<

Believe me, I've tried. In fact, today I mailed my 3rd letter to a local
crematory asking for answers to several questions which deal with what we're
discussing. For some reason the crematory won't respond. If I don't hear
anything from them this time, I'm going to consult another in a large city.
Maybe it will provide the answers?

I don't know whether the crematories cool down to ambient temperature before
incinerating another corpse. I just can't see why it would do this since all
that heat would be going to waste. Nonetheless, the assertion was made to me
that crematories did indeed cool off to ambient temperature between
cremations. I simply asked for validation of this claim.

Cliff


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Subject:  #462733-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463405
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:07:25

Mike:

>>1. What comment will you make on David Irving's statement that
4,000,000 died?See URL
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/i/irving-david/austra
lia/2cg-transcript-07
95.html<<

I can't make any comment on it. I haven't read his statement. I'm going to
check out this Website tonight. However, I haven't heard ANYTHING about it
from the Revisionist. I'm speculating that his statement might have been taken
out of context. Maybe someone can enlighten us?

CGS >> were all Jews "gassed" by the Nazis. Do you know that NOT ONE forensic
examination done to the corpses ever showed that they died of "gassing". The
examinations did show death by typhus and other acts of war, but no
"gassing".<<

>>1. Why would the SS bother with a forensic examination, when (1)
they knew precisely how the victim died, and (2) burned the
cadaver immediately?<<

Geesh, Mike! What the heck are you saying here? The Nazis didn't conduct
forensic examinations!The Allied forces did! Now read this: Dr. Charles
Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, performed autopsies at
Dachau and some 20 other German camps after the war. He was rigorously
questioned by U.S. Army prosecutors as to his findings. He said no case of
poisoning by gas was ever discovered and added that most all victims died of
typhus.

>>2. Which "examinations" do you refer to?<<

See above

CGS>>scientific principles and examination. The allegations and testimony
suggesting this thing happened should be investigated. But, when such
testimony cannot be supported by rationale and scientific plausibility then
the testimonies and allegations lose their merit.<<

>> Which testimony do you assert "cannot be supported?"
How do you evaluate such testimony?<<

Well, for starters the whole notion of "gassing." The testimony is totally
unsupported with the exception of yet more tales. NO FORENSICALLY EXAMINED
CORPSE AT ANY OF THE CAMPS WAS DETERMINED TO HAVE DIED BY GASSING.

Cliff


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Subject:  #462692-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463404
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:07:14

Mike:

>> Nonsense.  All this means is that the cleanup operation took less than an
hour.  At 2:00 PM, the burning was almost over;  at 3:00 PM, "everything
is back to normal."  Don't tell me this is really difficult to understand.<<

This is your opinion, and it contradicts Bendel, the "eyewitness." You're just
like Pressac: When the absurdity of these "eyewitnesses" is exposed you want
to step in and claim they erred in what they said and saw! Come on, if you're
going to place so much trust in these "eyewitnesses" don't contradict and
correct them.

>>No, the opposite happened:  Pressac played a large part in the
destruction of revisionism.<<

What a joke. Pressac actually bolstered the truth espoused by the
Revisionists. Like you, he suggested the "eyewitnesses" didn't really see what
they saw and described correctly. He felt compelled to step in and set the
record straight. Ever try to locate a copy of this revelation of his? If its
such a monumental work proving the existence of gas chambers and a program of
extermination against "God's Chosen" why is it you can't get your hands on a
copy? We all know why. Klarsfeld and Pressac probably hoped the moths would do
their work and destroy this "Tome of Embarrassment."

>>Actually, I've just started reading Mattogno's _Auschwitz: The End of a
Legend_, which supposedly  "demolishes" Pressac, and all I can say is that
Mattogno is clearly a fool...<<

And that's all you can do is "say it". Pressac destroys himself by describing
the layout of a gassing-cremation operation which is totally different from
the account of the "eyewitnesses." Keep reading.

>>The Nazis drained the swamp, as you would know if you had even a cursory
familiarity with the facts.<<

They did? And what proof of this do you have? So now we have a pit some 17
feet below the water table provided with a catch basis for the Jew fat at one
end accompanied by a Jew fat recirculation system. And, at some elevation
below this "indentation" there is yet another ditch that drains the water
away! Its a wonder some Chinaman didn't poke his head up through to see what
all the commotion was about. Triple ditches indeed!

>>The water table is much higher now because the drainage ditches have long
since filled in.<<

Is that so................is there ANY trace of these ditches today? I think
this is simply your theory of justification. A poor one at that. Imagine those
Germans going through all this trenching this way and that to some lower
elevation simply to operate their fat catching machine!

>>Don't tell me this is really difficult to understand.<<

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!

Cliff


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Subject:  #462548-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463401
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:06:44

George:

CGS<>

>>*YOU* seem to be the one hung up on the ladling of Jewish fat. Where has
Forrest or Mike asserted that this occurred in the crematoria?<<

To be honest with you, I can't really remember who said it. Anyway, its not
something that occurred at the Krema but at the alleged "burning pits". And,
I'm only "hung up" on the issue since it is so absurd due to the fact that the
water table at Auschwitz-Birkenau is only about 3 feet below the surface.
This, coupled with the fact that the statement was made there was an
"indentation that drained the fat from pit. This would have had to have been
at an even lower elevation that the pits themselves! Add to this the
visualization of such a contraption. Quite ridiculous.

Cliff


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Subject:  #462693- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 463400
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:06:37

Mike:

>>I cannot locate the part here where Mr. Swiger demonstrates that the
information from the Wiesenthal Center is a lie. Perhaps he will repost it for
us?<<

Come on, Mike, it was a generalization. "Lies"enthau promotes holocaustmania.
I.e, he says there was a holocaust, therefore he's lying. However, sometimes
he does confess to the truth when the weight of evidence becomes overwhelming.
In his book, "Books and Bookmen", he had to admit: "there were no
extermination camps on German soil." However, every effort was made to
convince American GIs to the contrary after the war. Some fell for this stunt
since they trusted their government which was nothing more that a puppet for
the Zionist Jews. Nonetheless, the "free" West had access to the alleged
"gassing" and cremation sites in this sector of Germany. In due time it became
obvious nothing like this occurred and was a big fib. On the other hand, all
the sites in Poland fell into the hands of the Communist/Bolshevik Jews who
would not allow the West to visit the sites until much later after they
"restored" the Krema, etc.
But, truth has a way of penetrating even the most formidable lies. This is
what happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau in recent years.

Guten Tag,

Cliff


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Subject:  #462632-#And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 463407
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:07:36

Andrew:

>>The research on hypothermia and pressure was 'looted' by the British and was
used in the production of diving tables and first aid manuals for many years.
The relevant research papers are refered to as 'German Government
Documents'Take a look at an old diving manual.<<

I'm a certified open water diver with advanced training to depths of 100 feet.
I know how diving tables work and temperature is not a factor on the dive
tables. The emphasis is placed upon depth of dive and time.

Cliff

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #463407-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 463435
   From:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  02-Mar-96  02:25:13

A charaid Cliff

The the Germans also did considerable research on the effects of pressure in
different enviroments. Unlike ourselves they were able to test human beings
'to destruction' their research provides the only detailed information on the
subject.

Andrew Mac



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Subject:  #462634-#And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 463408
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:07:42

Andrew:

>>According to Hoess the ashes were dumped in the Vistula river. The Vistula
is a big river.<<

Where did you get this information?

Cliff

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #463408-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 463436
   From:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  02-Mar-96  02:25:15

A charaid Cliff

Hoess's autobiography

Andrew Mac



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Subject:  #462483-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 463409
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:07:49

Hi Horst:

>>The IMT's were nothing more than kangaroo courts used for propaganda
purposes.<<

Yes, the IMTs and the Auschwitz "Trial" were show trials. Their purpose was to
deliver a political statement not an instrument of justice. The holocausters
love to cite "legal documents" from these events as though they were
adjudicated in accordance with Western jurisprudence. Such is not the case,
but how many individuals are going to delve into the issue to discover this?
Probably only scholars. Most people are not aware of even the simplest rules
of criminal procedure here in America. If they knew this and understood at the
imps that hearsay evidence was admissible against the accused, along with
"sworn" affidavits where the person making the allegation did not even have to
appear in court for cross examination they would see them for the farce they
were.

Cliff


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Subject:  #462566-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 463411
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:08:02

George:

CGS<>

>>Apples and oranges again, Cliff. Would there be other testimony besides
yours statuing that you had killed Kennedy? Testimony of others who had seen
you pull the trigger?<<

It could be arranged.

>>Documentary evidence that you had been in Dallas at the time, and that you
had access to the weapon and facilities used to do the deed? If so, then you
might have to worry about conviction. You would also be in a position far more
analogous to that faced by those convicted at Nuernburg.<<

Ahh......not so. Already you have crossed the threshold of "testimony." You
are demanding deeper investigation. Let's say I was in Dallas at the time with
a weapon and there were tall buildings in Dallas. I'm convicted! This is how
it worked with the Nazis. Inmates+crematories+"witnesses"=guilty. This is all
that was necessary. Lots of theories about three bodies per retort in the
Krema but NO evidence. Do you know that the allegations contained in the famed
War Refugee Board Report about the crematories operation and layout was ALL
based on HEARSAY?! And no one has yet to physically demonstrate how any
alleged "gas chamber" operated? Even the "witnesses" in the WRB report could
not explain exactly where they were let alone their operation! George, men
were hanged on this sort of evidence.

Cliff


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Subject:  #462534-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 463410
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:07:52

George:

>>You aren't, perhaps, a deconstructionst, are you?<<

I tore down an old barn once .

Cliff


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Subject:  #462574-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463413
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Aaron Nagano 72624,443
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:08:19

Aaron:

HK>>That forum is filthy and dominated with the same breed as here.<<

AN>>Now what breed might you be referring to?  If you mean what I think you
do, then your comments are violations of German law.<<

Who gives a hoot. Horst lives in America not Deutschland. I think I know what
you're accusing Horst of implying so I'll say it: There is a particular race
of man defined in scientific terms of which the overwhelming majority are
commonly called "Jews." This is not to say there is a "Jewish" race as
defined. But, those representing the anthropological group mentioned above are
colloquially called "Jews". I'm sure you are aware of the difference between
the Ashkenazim and Sephardim Jew.

Cliff


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Subject:  #462482-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463412
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:08:09

Hallo Horst:

>>Up to this day, I have received  38 e-mails from people who would love to
participate in the SPIEGEL Forum but are afraid they might be arrested since
all the fora are read by the political Police.........<<

Due to the global exchange of information, the entire world is now aware of
the thought oppression that has plagued Germany for years. The jig is up on
censorship and those who wish to control thought know this. They are
frightened to death realizing they may be one of those left holding the bag
when the freedom of opinion revolution turns on them. I wouldn't want to be in
their position.

>>Yes, I received also 9 e-mails spewing the usual garbage and even
threatening me personally. I am scared to death!<<

Oh, I get E-Hate Mail all the time. I'm not to worried about it though, and
you shouldn't be either. Remember, Moses received the commandment from Yahweh:
"Thou shalt not kill." Surely this edict applies to all men and not just the
Jews .

Cliff 


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Subject:  #462696-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463414
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:08:25

Mike:

CGS>> But, I'm convinced that there are quite a number (many you and spar with
in this forum) who know the holocaust is a myth but defend
it for racial and political reasons. I don't blame them one bit for this.
They are doing what they must to protect their interests and agenda.<<

>> Any specifics on this.

Who do you mean, and why.<<

I mean Jews, particularly Zionist Jews. The holohoax is BIG business and
provides much of the staple to Israel. The Jews in Israel would suffer
miserably if left to fend for themselves. Israel depends on guilt payments
from Germany and untold billions from US taxpayers in order to expunge Arabs
from their land and maintain a fair standard of living. The holohoax is
essential to them as it creates the image of the "persecuted Jew" who must be
provided for.

Cliff


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Subject:  #462607-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463406
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  James C. Laughrey 72672,256
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:07:31

James:

>>So, how do you tell a "jew" bookstore from all of the other ones?<<

The owners have big noses and chant Kol Nidre? Actually, the particular
bookstore I purchased Primo Levi's book at is controlled by Jews. Would you
like me to E-mail you a copy of "Who Rules America?" which explains in detail
the Jewish control of the major media here in America? This offer is open to
all.

Cliff



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Subject:  #462568-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 463416
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:08:42

George:

HK<< WHO  HAS SOMETHING TO LOSE OR WHO HAS SOMETHING TO WIN?>>

>>Yes, a fair question....Just think of how much it would benefit the neo-Nazi
movement if it could deny the genocide commtted by it's forebears and have it
believed...how much easier it would be to dupe people into joining it if they
could first get them to believe their Revisionist" Big Lie.<<

They're already denying it, George. This isn't the holocausters concern at
all. They're worried about open discussion of the subject which would in turn
reveal the truth that the holocaust is a myth. The fact that the holocaust is
a myth has nothing to do with recruiting someone to join a National Socialist
political organization.  This is a placard you and other holohoaxers attempt
to hang on anyone who questions the legend in a scientific, rational manner.
Its miserable logic on your part: 1. Nazis deny the holocaust. 2. Some people
deny the holocaust. 3. People who deny the holocaust are Nazis. You ought to
be ashamed.

Cliff



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Subject:  #462480-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 463415
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:08:33

Lieber Horst:

>>The Holocausters however have everything to lose. The exposure of their
lies, public funding of the Halloween House on Washington's Mall, all kinds of
taxbreaks for donations to their cause, the annual payment of 4.8 Billion
Dollar to Israel most likely, because they could not hold the Holocaust ax any
longer over the heads of the american people and the politicians and much
more.<<

I still can't believe the Zionists erected their "House of Horror" in America.
Why not kick some more Arabs out of their homeland and build it there? Maybe
its because when the Arabs knelt down to pray, facing the east, their
posterior would be aiming you know where! But seriously, they should have
constructed the thing in Israel where it belongs. But then again, practically
all profits would have to be derived from Jews in this case. Over here, there
are lots of Gentiles to collect from. Just a theory.

Cliff


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Subject:  #462694-The Holocaust - Not III - Msg Number: 463399
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  23:06:29

Mike:

CGS>>Evidence: proof, either written or unwritten, of allegations at issue
between parties. It may be (a) direct or indirect, which latter includes
circumstantial evidence; (b) substantive, directed to proof of a distinct
fact, or corroborative, in support of previous evidence; (c) intrinsic,
external, or extrinsic, not derived from anything to be found in the document
itself; (d) original or derivative, which passes through some channel, parol,
as opposed to original documents or evidence.<<

Mike Curtis>>This is still fairly vague.<<

Well Mike, I'm afraid that's your problem, fellow. I completed a course in
paralegalism and the definition I provided to you came right out of the law
dictionary I was supplied with. Gilmer's Revision, "The Law Dictionary", 6th
edition, Anderson Publishing Company, Cincinnati, Ohio.

I don't think its a problem of the definition being "vague" as much as it is
your inability to comprehend.

>>For a given historical event, would you accept: Eyewitness testimonies?
Official documentation from bureaucratic bodies? physical/forensic evidence?
photos? Statistical figures? (Such as population pre and post war?)<<

Sure, I'm willing to consider it. Are you? Here's some testimony for you,
since you place so much emphasis on it. An Austrian woman, Maria
Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp experiences in a Toronto District
Court in March 1988. She was interned in Auschwitz-Birkenau, the alleged,
notorious "death camp", in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish
forced laborer. On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the
others that they would all be "gassed" at Auschwitz. Upon arrival, Maria and
the others were ordered into a concrete room to take a shower. They were sure
they were about to be "gassed" but out of the shower heads came nothing but
harmless water. This woman also testified she saw no mass killings, gassings,
or any extermination program.

So here you have it, Mike. Testimony, which you esteem so highly. And it is
court testimony to boot! Physical evidence too. Shower heads that dispense,
yes, WATER!

How about this one: A JEWISH woman named Marika Frank arrived at
Auschwitz-Birkenau in July of 1944 when 25,000 Jews were alleged to have been
"gassed" and cremated daily. She testified (ahhh....more testimony for you)
she heard and saw nothing of "gassing chambers" while interned at Auschwitz.

And photos? You want to talk photos? Detailed aerial reconnaissance taken of
Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1944 (during the height of the alleged extermination
period) were made PUBLIC by the CIA in 1979. What did they show? Or better
yet, what didn't they show? No piles of corpses, no smoking chimneys,  nor any
Jews waiting to be gassed.

Mike, your holocaust fable is over. Do I not represent a prime example that
people are no longer going to tolerate being force-fed lies? I'm 36 years old.
I grew up being exposed to all the holocaust propaganda and it failed
miserably. In fact, I used to believe there actually was a holocaust. But,
instead of gullibly swallowing Hollywood productions, I delved into the issue.
The holocaust is a fraud, a myth, a lie.

CGS> >Don't try to play word games when you're pinned in a corner. Three
people have conducted forensic examinations at this "original" site and their
findings have "converged" indicating NO gassings ever occurred there and the
crematories were of circa 1940 design and of nothing out of the ordinary. Your
myth is over, friend.<<

>> Which three people? Leuchter, Luftl, and Rudolf ?<<

Yes, these three. And there is also Dr. William B. Lindsey, a research chemist
of 33 years with Dupont. He testified in a 1985 court case that the Auschwitz
"gassing" story is technically impossible. After a careful on-site examination
he stated, "I have come to the conclusion that no one was willfully or
purposefully killed with Zyklon B in this manner. I consider it absolutely
IMPOSSIBLE (emphasis added).

>>Btw, where's your source that modern Crematoria 'do the same
job at temperatures hundreds of degrees higher?'   Do you have
a source for that , or is this wishful thinking on your part?<<

Any knowledgeable crematory operator will confirm this. I'm quoting the
Leuchter Report. And before you attempt to discredit the facts stated simply
because they appear in the report I'd advise you to check them out. Modern
crematories operate at 2000 degrees F while the coke oven type of the 1940s
operated at about 1400 degrees F.

CGS> Lets go ahead and assume that the Nazis stuffed 4 bodies in each retort,
although this totally contradicts the design data.<<

>>What design data is this?<<

The design data for the crematories at Auschwitz.

CGS>>All I'm asking for is a detailed, systematic design and operation that
validates such an absurd claim.<<

>>Whoopie.  Where did you dig up this 5.52 minutes per
body claim?<<

Obviously you did not read my post in detail which does not surprise me. You,
like others, somehow refuse to acknowledge facts that do not fit into your
scheme. Get out your calculator. But first, here is the source: An article
appeared in a local newspaper. The articles was a syndicated one from the
Baltimore Sun. It is dated 1-29-95. From paragraph two: "The payoff for this
planning hit its stride in the spring of '44 at Auschwitz-Birkenau, when
12,000 BODIES PER DAY FLOATED DARKLY FROM THE CHIMNEYS." (emphasis added)

Now we're not talking "pits" here or some other form of incineration. The
article says the bodies "floated darkly from the chimneys" indicating they
were cremated. I'm giving you the best case scenario with 46 retorts operating
24 hours per day non stop. Here's the math:

12,000 / 46 = 260.86957 bodies per oven per day. 260.86957 / 24 = 10.869565
bodies per hour or, 0.092 "hours" per body which converts to 5.52 "minutes"
per body (multiply 0.092 by 60). So there's your source you demanded and the
mathematics.

Cliff



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Subject:  #462567-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 464441
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:24:57

George:

CGS<>

>>Guess that's why you think that testimony from camp inmates doesn't count.<<

Actually, I find it quite interesting when camp inmates testify that no
holocaust or "gassings" ever occurred at Auschwitz. Maria Vanherwaarden and
Marike Frank (a Jewess) both testified that no holocaust happened at
Auschwitz-Birkenau. The former testified to this in court which should impress
you since its "official".

Cliff


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Subject:  #462561-#And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 464437
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:24:33

George:

CGS<>

>>How about going and looking up his sources? Then you could actually decide
for yourself whether or not Shirer made it all up.<<

Oh that's it,........... take me literally. Poor wording on my part. Sorry.
What I meant by this was, that it is hard for me to believe some "Auschwitz
orderly" stood by and recorded (or recalled from memory) the dialog of two
Russians as they bobbed around in a huge container of ice water. I wasn't
suggesting Shirer himself witnessed this "event". Its funny that the Nazis
were supposed to be so secretive about all this "Jewgenocide" and horrific
medical experiments yet somehow always managed to permit some rag-tag inmate
not only "witness" these things but survive to tell about it, nicht wahr?

Cliff

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #464437-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 464534
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  22:56:17

>>What I meant by this was, that it is hard for me to believe some "Auschwitz
orderly" stood by and recorded (or recalled from memory) the dialog of two
Russians as they bobbed around in a huge container of ice water.

        Here is the conversation in its entirety: "About the third hour one of
the Russians said to the other, 'Comrade, please tell the officer to shoot
us.'  The other replied that he expected no mercy from this Fascist dog.  The
two shook hands with a 'Farewell, Comrade.'"

        I don't think I would have any trouble remembering that.  But I might
have some trouble forgetting it.


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Subject:  #463650-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464322
   From:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  15:16:53

It is interesting that this "Scientific race" consists of members who are
clloser in relation to the "native" members of the region from which they come
from then they do to other members of their own "race".

Othewise my friends of Lithuanian descent (they have red hair and blue eyes)
are racially closer to my Yemenite friends (picture very dark arabs like those
from the Arabian Peninsula) then they are to other Lithuanians?



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464020-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464520
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  22:15:44

Cliff>>There is a particular race of man defined in scientific terms of which
the overwhelming majority are commonly called "Jews."<<

Forrest <<"Defined in scientific terms" by who?>>

  We can only imagine. Probably based on phrenology--or perhaps geneology,
with some allowances for 'converts' based on Kremer's crazy theories about the
hereditariness of acquired traits. (Gee, sounds sort of like Lysenko in the
USSR...these guys seem to have more and more in common with what they call the
"jewsish Bolshevik system" all the time. Maybe Holocaust revisionism is really
a Bolshevik plot?)

  Of course, astrology can also be <>. Not that
that makes astrology real science.



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463779-#Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464362
   From:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
     To:  Aaron Nagano 72624,443
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  16:56:03

The Kol Nidre is a prayer.   It is said to gain the forgiveness of any oaths
or promises made in the forthcoming year.  Many have tried to show that this
is used to get out of debts or promises to others.  In fact, it is meant for
those instances and promises that are made between a man and his god and in no
way absolves you from obligations to others.

Also, it is only said on the night  on which Yom Kippur starts.  It is highly
unlikely that Cliff has ever heard it walking into a bookstore.

/\vner

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464362-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464528
   From:  Aaron Nagano 72624,443
     To:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  22:37:09

Avner:

        I know about Kol Nidre.  I was only pointing out that Cliff should not
make ethnic insults of any type, especially when it only demonstrates his
ignorance.

Aaron 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463406-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464361
   From:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  16:56:01

I would very much like a copy of "who rules America".

/\vner


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Subject:  #462563-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464442
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:25:03

George:

CGS<>

>>By <> do you mean that Primo Levi doesn't mention
"gassings," or that you consider his mentions of them <<>

He mentions "selections" a couple of times but its all hearsay. Someone told
him of the "selections" for "gassing" and he mentions this in passing. He may
have said he witnessed a "selection" process near the end of his book, I can't
be sure. But, that's all he offers as evidence. He never saw a "gassing" nor
does he provide evidence that those "selected" were actually "gassed" and
incinerated holocaust style.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463017-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464446
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Alex Krislov 76703,243
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:26:29

Alex:

>>Would it be too much to ask you to get something right once in a while?
1) James (The Amazing) Randi has offered $50,000, not $10,000 to anyone who
can demonstrate true psychic powers.<<

Gee, excuse the hell out of me. The reward amount wasn't the crux of my
message.

>>2) He is not offering it currently, because one of the more rapacious frauds
has tied him up in endless lawsuits.  Just losing wasn't enough to stop him,
and Randi has had to use his funds to fight these foolish actions.<<

This sort of thing is terrible. Some folks are just poor losers, Alex. Why
look what's happened to that Ernst Zundel fellow up in Canada. He's been
dragged back into court time and again on frivolous charges. We need a law to
sue the suing sorts who sue just for the sake of suing. Hey! I just saw pig
run by my window!

>>3) I know James Randi.  I brought Randi online here on CompuServe.  Randi is
a rational man par excellance, and has no sympathy for such foolishness as
holocaust denial.<<

I don't know his position on the myth. I merely pointed out that Randi said
the "believer" cannot be detered by logic, common sense and scientific fact.
He was speaking about believers in faith healing, etc. I drew the parallel on
the holocaust myth.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463012-Weber's Listing - Msg Number: 464428
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:14:13

My post: >The huge granite stones with their well polished bronze lettering
in 19 languages, did not come down until 1992 >

Yours:  >>  I wonder how many serious historians could refrain from laughing
if, as a source in a paper, a collegue cited "on a granite stone at XYZ."<<

What are you talking about?


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462996-#Auschwitz - Msg Number: 464445
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:26:21

Forrest:

>>Having the requisite material and technology for the ventilation system,
Boos constructed it between February 23 and March 1.  SS Corporal Pery Broad
of the Political Department (Gestapo) described it as a large curved pipe
rising from the roof [of the crematorium], which gave off a monotonous sound .
. .a ventilator suction device designed to purify the air
in the incineration chamber [and the morgue] . . .<<

Now why would one have need to "purify" combustion air for the "incineration
chamber?" I thought it was brought in from outside by use of a "forced draft"
fan? Jesus Christ, did the Nazis have their forced draft fan's suction side
pulling air in from the morgue? And then there's this "ventilator suction
device" that purifies air and discharges it outside for Christ's sake!
Wouldn't it make better sense to purify the air and put it INSIDE the
building? And which fan won this tug of war by the way? Both of them sucking
away on an underground morgue! Its a wonder the place didn't implode.

>>Himmler's plans did not affect ongoing activities at the Auschwitz
crematorium.  The second furnace proved unsatisfactory for lack of proper
draft.<<

That's because those stupid Nazis had no induced draft fans. What would one
expect from a bunch of bumbling fools that "purify" air that is INSIDE a
building by use of a "ventilator suction device" and then discharge it
OUTSIDE.

>>After unsatisfactory communications with Topf, Schlachter decided to address
the problem himself.  Increasing the height of the smokestack to 20 m got the
draft going again.<<

BUT NOW YOU'RE TALKING NATURAL DRAFT! Make up your mind. Its true that natural
draft is dependent on the length of the chimney. But you said the Nazis were
using forced draft fans to suck smoke. And they blew cold air into the
crucibles. They also purified the "incineration chamber" air with a
"ventilator suction device" that made funny noises and stuff.

>>Grabner used a hut right behind the crematorium for his Gestapo
interrogations and the morgue as his place of execution.  When both
furnaces were going, which happened almost every day, they released so much
heat that the ventilation system, which was supposed to extract air from the
morgue, actually sent hot air into it from the furnace room.  The only way to
prevent this was to disconnect the morgue from the
ventilation system -- with unwanted consequences in the
hot summer air.  Grabner denounced this "scandal" to the
Bauleitung and asked that it equip the morgue with two ventilators, one to
bring fresh air in (to aerate, belueften) and one to take stale air out (to
dearate, orentlueften) and discharge it in conformity with the earlier
plans through the smokestack.

It appears as though Boos boo booed, huh. But, the "ventilation suction
device" was also used to purify the air in the "incineration chamber." After
his interrogations, Grabner should have just marched his victims over to the
gas chamber for execution. This way he would have avoided the heat in the
morgue.

>>The continuous incinerations had done more than just disturb Grabner's
comfort.  They had also cracked the smokestack.  All cremation was stopped
between June 23 and 28 to hoop the chimney with iron bands. . . .<<

What the hell were the stacks made out of, oak staves? Surely they were brick.
Why didn't they just smear a little mortar in the cracks? You know, those darn
cracks wouldn't have made any difference if those dumb Nazis had installed
induced draft fans to balance the air flow. If they had, there would have been
a slight negative pressure in the furnace and the chimney. But no, they were
so ignorant they installed FORCED draft fans to suck smoke.

Forrest, what  you've posted thus far is pure rubbish. Forced draft fans that
suck smoke, ventilator suction devices that purify air inside a building and
discharge it outside, purifying combustion air, and blowing COLD, compressed
air (and also with an electrical device) into the crucibles. This is a display
of pure ignorance.

Cliff 

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463250-Weber's Listing - Msg Number: 464427
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:14:09

>> This particular claim is an example of Holocaust deniers
overstating their influence on the world.  The lowering of the figure
had nothing to do with 'revisionist historians' at all, rather it was
based on a study released by a panel of historians appointed by
the Polish Government.  As Alfred Cattani wrote in the magazine
_News Weekly_ (5/11/91, p19):<<

To make an extremely looooong story  short: THE REVISIONISTS WERE RIGHT all
along!  Without the Revisionists the 'historians' [liars for the regimes]
would not have bothered with the 4 mill. figure, right?

Were does it put the TOTAL number of 'victims now?  At 3 Mill.?  If yes, what
happened to the other 3 mill.?  Where did the Nazis 'murder' them?  Or, as in
the words of Eli Wiesel,    "  . . . it is ALL true but did not happen?"

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464445-Auschwitz - Msg Number: 464531
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  22:49:03

>>Now why would one have need to "purify" combustion air for the "incineration
chamber?" I thought it was brought in from outside by use of a "forced draft"
fan?

        You're confusing the ventilation with the forced draft for the
furnace.

>>That's because those stupid Nazis had no induced draft fans. What would one
expect from a bunch of bumbling fools that "purify" air that is INSIDE a
building by use of a "ventilator suction device" and then discharge it
OUTSIDE.

        Again, you're confusing things.  It was the smoke from the crematorium
which was discharged outside.

>>BUT NOW YOU'RE TALKING NATURAL DRAFT! Make up your mind.

        In case it has escaped your attention, it's possible to use both.
There is no need to "make up your mind."

>> After his interrogations, Grabner should have just marched his victims over
to the gas chamber for execution. This way he would have avoided the heat in
the morgue.

        Going to the gas chamber wouldn't have helped, since the gas chamber
was itself heated in order to vaporize the cyanide.

>>What the hell were the stacks made out of, oak staves? Surely they were
brick. Why didn't they just smear a little mortar in the cracks?

        Smearing mortar in the cracks wouldn't have helped.  The stack would
simply have cracked again.

>>Forrest, what  you've posted thus far is pure rubbish.

        I disagree.

>>Forced draft fans that suck smoke, ventilator suction devices that purify
air inside a building and discharge it outside, purifying combustion air, and
blowing COLD, compressed air (and also with an electrical device) into the
crucibles.

        I have answered all those objections, and I will be happy to answer
any more that you can think of.

>>This is a display of pure ignorance.

        It never fails: It is always the least-informed people in the forum
who call me ignorant.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462995-#Auschwitz - Msg Number: 464443
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:25:32

Forrest:

>>As you have so many questions about the operation of Auschwitz, I went to
the library and found a source, _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_ by
Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum, editors, which contains a wealth of
detailed information.<<

"Yisrael?"...... "Berenbaum?". I'll be this is an unbiased source!

>>In 1928, two engineers from Hamburg, Hans Volckmann and Karl Ludwig, applied
for a patent for a new kind of incinerating furnace to be used for cremation.
Until then, a standard incinerating furnace had a core that consisted of a
crucible, or muffle, which took in the coffin, and a burner.  Added to this
core was an economizer, which retrieved heat from the combustion gasses to
channel it through a complex heat exchanger
back into the crucible.  The economizer made it possible to shut off the
burner at an early stage of the incineration process and continue it with the
energy already absorbed into the furnace.  Yet there was one problem: though
the economizer saved on fuel, it was expensive to construct.  The complex
system of overlapping circuits sometimes took up as much as two-thirds of the
total mass of the furnace.<<

I won't argue that recovering heat from flue gas and rerouting that heat back
into the retort would theoretically reduce cremation rates. But, I can't see
expense being a problem with Hitler if he had a program of genocide against
Jews. I mean can you picture it? Adolf Hitler clenching his fists, looking
upwards toward Wotan and screaming in a hysterical voice,

"We must destroy the Jew! Every one of them right down to the last breathing
child!..................of course, it must be done as economically as
possible."

>>Volckmann and Ludwig aimed to slash the prevailing prices by replacing the
cumbersome economizer with a cheaper system based on the introduction of
compressed cold air into the crucible.<<

Now this is intriguing. In one instance, these guys are trying to recover heat
and direct it back into the retort and in the next case they're introducing
"compressed COLD air into the crucible."  Thermodynamically this makes no
sense. The COLD air is actually put into the crucible? This COLD air would
absorb heat wouldn't it?

>>But another company was able to capitalize on the idea...... Topf installed
in various crematoria seven gas-heated furnaces without an economizer that
used compressed air instead.<<

Whoa now. The Krema at Auschwitz-Birkenau were all coke oven gas models.
Unless I'm reading this wrong, you're saying Topf utilized methane gas (or
some other) in this case. If so, there's no point in arguing along this line.
I'm interested in this compressed air idea. What's the benefit? I can't
picture it being utilized in the combustion process. When combusting fossil
fuels, such as coke and coal, forced draft and induced draft fans provide more
than enough air for combustion. I work at a power station, more often than not
we have to cut back on air flow to attain proper combustion. The rotary fans
are more than adequate.

>>Topf's crematorium furnaces had acquired a good reputation when, in 1937, a
new market opened.  In May, the SS leadership in Munich decided to build a
crematorium in the concentration camp at Dachau and invited bids for a
furnace.<<

There were no extermination camps on German soil. Ask that Weisenthau fellow.
Therefore what's the point here?

>>Until that year, Nazi concentration camps had used the crematoria of the
nearest towns to incinerate the remains of prisoners who died in the camps.
Yet at times that created inopportune publicity; also, the mortality rate in
the camps sometimes exceeded the limited capacity of
the civilian crematoria.<<

Well I'm sure it did! The Nazis were "gassing" Jews by the tens of thousands
every day weren't they! Oh my goodness, this is really getting bizarre .


>>Mueller claimed that there was a direct relation between increased use and
increased economy.  If the cold furnace required 175 kilograms (kg) of coke to
start up a new incineration, it needed only 100 kg if it had been used the day
before; a second and third incineration on the same day would not require any
extra fuel, thanks to the compressed air;<<

You mean that COLD compressed air put into the crucibles? Now come on. Let me
get this straight: Once the furnace was heated up to a certain temperature it
was possible to add no additional fuel and carry out a second and third
incineration while blowing COLD compressed air into the crucible? If its going
into the crucible then its only going to absorb heat. Heat that could be used
to cremate the Jew. Please explain.

>>Because all the furnaces in the concentration camps had oil burners, it was
likely that the crematoria would now face shortages. . . .<<

ALL of them! Forrest, this is the first I've ever heard of this and I must
confess I think its absolutely absurd. The original construction design for
the Krema at Auschwitz-Birkenau were for coke oven gas models.

>>At the end of May, the Auschwitz Neubauleitung (New Construction
Administration) communicated to Topf that the mobile furnace it had on order
should use coke. Pruefer decided not to tamper with the mobile model, which
could not be so easily adapted, but instead to redesign the fixed,
double-muffle furnace supplied earlier to Buchenwald (figure 5).  Both
Auschwitz and Flossenberg went along with the modification, which
added two external coke burners on both sides of the underground flue that
linked the furnace to the smokestack.<<

What?? An "underground flue?" Oh boy, are you telling me that the Nazis
constructed a crematory with burners on top of the ground that in turn had an
exhaust arrangement that swept underground only to return back through the
surface again and then out the stack? Or was the whole cremation process
underground with only the chimney jutting out?

>>Equipped with an electric forced-draft fan capable of removing 4,000 cubic
meters (cu m) of smoke an hour and fitted with an electric blower to inject
blasts of cold air into the crucibles,........<<

To the best of my knowledge, forced draft fans provide combustion air. They
don't "remove" anything. Induced draft fans provide a negative pressure on the
furnace and exhaust flue gasses. I don't who these guys are who wrote this
material, but I don't think they understand combustion processes. When you
burn wood in a fireplace there is a natural draft in the chimney. If you
wanted the wood to release it's heat as quickly as possible you'd need to add
the necessary volume of air at a faster rate. You would then install a FORCED
DRAFT fan for this purpose. But, by forcing air in at such a rate, you would
pressurize the furnace. This would cause your fuel and ash to blow out through
any leaks in the system. And, due to this back pressure, you would not be
optimizing your forced draft fan. So, you install an INDUCED DRAFT fan near
the top of your chimney. The induced draft fan keeps a slight suction
(negative pressure) on your furnace.

And here again we have COLD air being injected into the crucibles. This would
only absorb heat from the system. Notice this time its not compressed but
blown in by an electrical device. How did the air get COLD? What did the Nazis
do, pipe it through those ice water vats where those Russian fellows were
"chilling out?" 

Cliff

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464443-Auschwitz - Msg Number: 464526
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  22:32:40

>>"Yisrael?"...... "Berenbaum?". I'll be this is an unbiased source!

        You don't seem to have any trouble when guys named "Koch" and
"Kleinsorg" tell us about it . . .

>>I won't argue that recovering heat from flue gas and rerouting that heat
back into the retort would theoretically reduce cremation rates. But, I can't
see expense being a problem with Hitler if he had a program of genocide
against Jews.

        Since you missed the point, the Auschwitz crematoria did not have
these economizers.  They relied on a forced-air system, which was more
efficient.

>>Now this is intriguing. In one instance, these guys are trying to recover
heat and direct it back into the retort and in the next case they're
introducing "compressed COLD air into the crucible."  Thermodynamically this
makes no sense. The COLD air is actually put into the crucible? This COLD air
would absorb heat wouldn't it?

        In a cremation at such high temperatures, the difference in initial
air temperature wouldn't matter much.  If you've ever used an acetylene torch,
you know that the initial gas temperature is very low . . . but so what?

>>The Krema at Auschwitz-Birkenau were all coke oven gas models. Unless I'm
reading this wrong, you're saying Topf utilized methane gas (or some other) in
this case.

        Since you evidently didn't read it, the crematoria were converted for
coke after the beginning of the war, when the supply of oil was cut off.

>>I'm interested in this compressed air idea. What's the benefit?

        In order to have a fire you need oxygen. The more oxygen is available,
the faster it burns.  If you have ever used an acetylene torch, you know that
pure oxygen produces a fire that is very, very hot.  A similar effect can be
achieved by compressed air, which exposes the fuel to more oxygen in a shorter
time.

>>There were no extermination camps on German soil. Ask that Weisenthau
fellow. Therefore what's the point here?

        Dachau was not an "extermination camp," but it did have a very high
death rate.  The frequent trips to the local crematorium were an embarrassment
for the Nazis, who decided to install their their own crematorium on the site,
where cremations could take place without unnecessary witnesses.

>>Until that year, Nazi concentration camps had used the crematoria of the
nearest towns to incinerate the remains of prisoners who died in the camps.
Yet at times that created inopportune publicity; also, the mortality rate in
the camps sometimes exceeded the limited capacity of the civilian crematoria.

>>Well I'm sure it did! The Nazis were "gassing" Jews by the tens of thousands
every day weren't they! Oh my goodness, this is really getting bizarre .

        Your love of humor is noted, however I suggest that the subject is
inappropriate.

>>You mean that COLD compressed air put into the crucibles? Now come on. Let
me get this straight: Once the furnace was heated up to a certain temperature
it was possible to add no additional fuel and carry out a second and third
incineration while blowing COLD compressed air into the crucible?

        To repeat, in a crematorium at such a high temperature, I doubt that
the initial air temperature made much difference.

>>Forrest, this is the first I've ever heard of this and I must confess I 
think its absolutely absurd. The original construction design for the Krema at
Auschwitz-Birkenau were for coke oven gas models.

        Auschwitz is in *Poland*.  It was not constructed until after the
beginning of the war, after the supply of oil was cut off. Earlier crematoria
at other camps burned oil.

>>An "underground flue?" Oh boy, are you telling me that the Nazis constructed
a crematory with burners on top of the ground that in turn had an exhaust
arrangement that swept underground only to return back through the surface
again and then out the stack?

        The purpose of a smokestack is to create a draft.  The bigger the
smokestack, the bigger the draft.  Whether the stack is above or below ground
is irrelevant; the smoke can't tell the difference.

>>To the best of my knowledge, forced draft fans provide combustion air. They
don't "remove" anything. Induced draft fans provide a negative pressure on the
furnace and exhaust flue gasses.

        Perhaps it has not occured to you that they call it something else in
German.

>>Notice this time its not compressed but blown in by an electrical device.
How did the air get COLD? What did the Nazis do, pipe it through those ice
water vats where those Russian fellows were "chilling out?" 

        Again, I suggest that your humor is inappropriate.  You're in this
forum because of a tolerance which is likely to disappear if you continue in
ghoulish humor.

        As for how the air got "cold," I suspect that it was ambient
temperature to start with.  However, releasing compressed air naturally tends
to cool it . . .


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463117-Montogno - Msg Number: 464436
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:23:59

My best example so far of Mattogno's stupidity is his explanation of the Mike:

>>Vergasungskeller.  You'll recall that a letter in 1943 (?) referred to
Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II, what we now know to be the gas chamber, as
the "Vergasungskeller."  It sounds exactly like what it means:   "gassing
cellar."  That captured letter has given deniers no end of fits, of course.

Butz's explanation circa 1976 was that "Vergasung" could only mean
"carburetion," i.e. converting a solid or liquid into a gas.  Specious.
"Vergasung"........<<

I'll have to capitulate on the proper definition. My German is very, very poor

and I couldn't make an argument either way. In this instance I'd be much more
inclined to investigate the plausibility of the accusation that the morgue was
actually a "gas chamber". If it were indeed a Jew "gas chamber" the Nazis
could have called it anything but that. They could have have called it a
morgue and, given the allegations, I'd still be more convinced by operation
techniques (and I don't mean "eyewitness" tales, but the actual process) than
by either party's definition of a word. Even if Butz's and Mattogno's
definitions differ, or one contradicts his former understanding of the word,
this does not prove the existence of  "gas chambers." Conclusive evidence for
the existence of "gas chambers" is sorely lacking. BTW, what is this 1943
letter you mention above?

>>So Butz's explanation was that the "Vergasungskeller" was the "carburetion
cellar" where solid coke was converted into a gas by some process involving
steam and high temperature, I think.<<

>> I believe your thinking of the old holocaust claims where it was alleged
that the Germans, steamed Jews to death. They also used to claim
electrocution, soap and fertilizer synthesization, and "gasmobiles" like the
ones that appeared in the fantasy Hollywood movie "The Holocaust." These
ridiculous claims have pretty much gone "up in smoke"  and no serious
holohoaxer clings to them any longer.

>>There's a small problem with this -- the Auschwitz crematoria used _solid_
coke, not any coke gas.  No carburetion required, you just shovel the stuff
in. Somehow Butz did not realize this.  Oops!<<

I'm not sure on this. The LeuchterReport says of the Krema: "They were
constructed of red brick and mortar and lined with refractory brick. All the
ovens had multiple retorts, some were blowered (although none had direct
combustion), none had afterburners and all were coke fired except one facility
no longer in existence at Majdanek."

Steam is sometimes mixed with solid fossil fuels to produce a combustible gas.
I'm not that knowledgeable on the subject. But "The Leuchter Report" seems to
concur with you that only the solid fuel was burned. Did Butz say this in his
book, "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century"? I have the book but I don't recall
having read this about the steam.

>>In other words, he jettisons Butz's explanation, admits that "Vergasung"
_does_ mean gas


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463211-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464431
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:14:25

>>Please Tell me who were the leaders of world jewry at the time.  None had
the power to speak for the jewish people then as none do today.  Nor would we
blindly follow any leader as so many Germans had in WWII.<<

Hello!!!   I see the lights are on, but, is anybody home?  There are ALWAYS
jewish leaders at the Jewish World Congress.  Before you waste anybodies time,
trying to extract enough information so you, too,  can talk on the proper
level, read some Revisionist literature first.
The leader of the World Jewish Congress, declaring war on Germany, 24. March
1933, was Waizman {?spelling] If it wasn't him, please, educate me.

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463239-#Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464430
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Alex Krislov 76703,243
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:14:22

>>The Jewish "declaration"  was in _response_ to a Nazi-declared boycott of
Jewish goods, shops and tradesmen within Germany.  The declaration you're
talking about was a counter-boycott.<<


Take a callender and look it up.  March 24, 1933, the day of the Jewish
Declaration of  War against Germany, was a week BEFORE the German  ONE DAY
boycott of Jewish stores, on April 1, 1933. Which was the ANSWER to the
preceding Jewish hostilities.  Should your dates be different, please, tell
me.  Kristallnacht was five years later on November 9, 1938.  Don't get it all
confused now.

=Manfred

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464430-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464454
   From:  Alex Krislov 76703,243
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:37:44

Manfred,

Don't you ever get tired of promoting lies?

The Nazi boycott was announced first, and then it was limited to one day
BECAUSE of the counter boycott.  The Nazi boycott was publicised outside of
Germany, and that is what led to a mass rally on March 27th threatening a
counter boycott if the Nazi boycott was not called off.

Now let's have a look at what happened during the Nazi "boycott."

"The boycott began at ten in the morning of Saturday, April 1. Stormtroops,
standing outside Jewish-owned shops, carried placards urging 'Germans' not to
enter.  the Star of David was painted in yellow on black across the doors and
windows of thousands of shops, and, in crude lettering, the single word Jude,
Jew, the sign of the swastika and the slogans 'Perish Judah!'  'Jews, Out!'
'Go to Palestine!' and 'Go to Jerusalem!'"
         --From Gilbert's THE HOLOCAUST, pp 33-34

Note, please, that this barbarous and disgusting spectacle involved the Nazis
persecuting German citizens.  As you note, Manfred, this was BEFORE the
Nuremberg laws codified this evil into law.

--Alex


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463183-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464432
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:14:30

>>  I do not mean that all are to blame for the holocaust, but as members of
Germany during the war, all are included under the title "enemy".  If the
people of Germany considered themselves apart and separate from the Nazis,
then they should have simply refused to foolow their lead into fomenting
conflict.<<

PMFJI:

What if some of us do not want to become Marxists?  What if a person is
opposed to that?  Is he a Neo-Nazi?  An anti-Semite?
The Nazi's were a neccessary protection from the Jewish Bolsheviks, as it was
known then.

"It is not an accident that Judaism gave birth to Marxism, and it is not an
accident that the Jews readily took up Marxism.  All that is in perfect accord
with the progress of Judaism and the Jews."
-Harry Waton " A Program for the Jews and an Answer to All Anti-Semites"
p.148. 1939

>>Anyway, Germany paid before and paid afterwards. <<
And Germany will pay, pay, pay, pay, pay, pay, pay, pay and pay.  And German
imbecilles, as we have seen quite a few in this forum, will demand to keep-on
paying, paying, paying and paying.

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463479-Engineers - Msg Number: 464429
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:14:18

>> This is a good one, Mr. Koch. So you're saying that a person who isn't an
engineer becomes an engineer when a prison warden says so?  Great powers must
that prison warden have, Mr. Koch, to be able to envision an engineer where
there is no engineer.
Greater powers than the Canadian judge who said that Leuchter is no engineer.
Greater powers even than Leuchter himself who declared that he is no
engineer.<<

Yes!!!  Because HE WAS an engineer untill then.  The Canadian judge [who said
NO] is an employee of the state.  His 'judgement' is based on the premise =to
keep his job=.   What value can we place on his decision?   The fact remains,
the State of Missouri recomendation  was made BEFORE  anybody [and the Jews]
knew the Leuchter-Report.

>> Because, Mr. Koch, the prison wardens you know can see an engineer where
there is none, while the prison wardens I know can only see a liar where there
is one.<<

So, what was the letter all about, if not a recommendation?  You have to
realize, until THEN, he was preparing the instruments of death for the
condemned.  No Jew found fault with Leuchter untill he was rattling
[unknowingly, I might add] the holocaust cage.  That got him into trouble,
otherwise, he would still prepare gas chambers and other killing instruments
for the US Justice system.

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463512-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464484
   From:  David T. Fuhrmann 71301,527
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  20:55:36

RE: >>>" I think you need to worry about who is here now, Mr. Kleinsborg and
not who was here two weeks ago. I don't see anyone here restricting your free
expression. In fact, I see folks bending over backwards to allow your trash to
be posted here."<<<


Doesn't matter.  We've now reached the stage in this game where these folks
start claiming that their messages are being deleted, that they are being
threatened by e-mail, and generally making themselves into "victims" of the
evil big-nosed bankers and their minions of evil.

Then they will depart from here and migrate to another forum to play out the
same game all over again.

dtf


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463967-Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 464425
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:14:02

> Actually, that thing about "hating Germany" used to be _their_ argument.
Boy, life can be mean. <

  -Mike Curtis<<

FYI only, again:  "There is a time to love and a time to hate; whoever does
not hate when he should does not deserve to love when he should, does not
deserve to love when he is able."
"Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set apart a zone of hate, -healthy
, virile hate- for what the German personifies and for what persists in the
German.  To do otherwise would be a betrayal of the dead."   (LEGENDS OF OUR
TIME.  page 142)

Mike, how often does one have to let you read this before you understand it
once?!

"And when we [hebrew] Americans speak seriously about politics, we mean that
our principles of freedom and equality and the rights based on them are
rational and everywhere applicable.  World War II was really an educational
project undertaken to force those who did not accept these principles to do
so."     Allan Bloom 1987 (The Closing of the American Mind, page 153)

"It is difficult to imagine any reason why America would want to have an
independent European nuclear deterrent operating as a third force.  That is a
risk the United States should never have to contemplate.   Considering that
such a force could fall into the hands of the Soviet Union, or of some future
Hitler or Mussolini, why would it be in the American national interest to do
so? America fought two wars to prevent the unification of Europe under German
controll. "  ( Eugene V. Rostow, in Plain Truth September 1987 Page 25)

"The Jewish people as a whole will be its own Messiah.  It will attain world
dominion by the dissolution of other races, by the abolition of
frontiers, the annihilation of monarchy, and by the establishment of a world
republic in which the Jews will everywhere exercise the privilege of
citizenship.  In this new world order the Children of Israel will furnish all
the leaders without encountering opposition.  The Governments of the different
peoples fomimg the world republic will fall without difficulty into the hands
of the Jews.  It will then be possible for the Jewish rulers to abolish
private property, and everywhere to make use of the resources of the state.
Thus will the promise of the Talmud be fulfilled, in which is said that when
the Messianic time is come, the Jews will have all the property of the whole
world in their hands."
-Baruch Levy (Letter to Karl Marx)   La Revue de Paris p. 574  June 1, 1928

THE JEWISH CRONICLE (London) 10. NOV. 1995 p.29:  "For 2000 years we have
understood that the return of Zion would be the gift of the Messiah.  Instead,
we won it through the Holocaust..."

You see, Mike; they can run, but they cannot hide.

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463870-Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 464426
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Juergen Langowski 100273,3352
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:14:06

PMFJI
>>You're not living in Germany, so maybe this explains why you don't know much
about us. The game we're playing now is called "modern democracy", and free
speech is part of it. If you think not - you said that several times -, prove
it.<<

You MUST live on the 'unbelichtete Seite des Mondes' [dark site of the moon]
not to know about the hundreds of Germans that are NOW, at this moment, in
jail for disputing what YOU stand for, the holocaust and all its lies,
fantasies, poetic craziness and distortions.

=Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464424
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  To all 
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  19:13:57

Mike Curtis: >> In fact, I see folks bending over backwards to allow your
trash to be posted here.<<


To All:
I have to take-up defense for Mike here.  Some Sysops, some of them are
'slithering'  around in this fora, have locked me out for a lot less of ideas
than are presented in this forum.   WE ALL have a lot to thank Mike for for
being open-minded, eventhough, not agreeable on almost ALL posts, for not
finding some ridiculous excuse to lock at least three of the members out that
are posting messages here.  In other words; he does not permit to turn this
forum into an ALL Bolshevik megaphone.


Thanks, Mike  = Manfred


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Holocaust Sessions Over - Msg Number: 464479
   From:  Duane (SysOp) 76711,217
     To:  ALL 
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  20:54:39

The ongoing debate concerning the Holocaust is causing a disruption of service
to the Forum. It is not a military or military related topic as far as I am
concerned. From one side it is justification of savagery unheard of in human
history. For another side, it is a tale of lost heritage, lives, family
members and persecution. The debate was allowed to continue to see if any good
would come out of it. I can see none, but I do see how the seeds of such
poison could permeate a society over 50 years ago. It is a pointless argument.
Now it is over, finis. Take your debate to another Forum, this one has had
enough of  it. Duane


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Holocaust Sessions Over - Msg Number: 464479
   From:  Duane (SysOp) 76711,217
     To:  ALL 
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  20:54:39

The ongoing debate concerning the Holocaust is causing a disruption of service
to the Forum. It is not a military or military related topic as far as I am
concerned. From one side it is justification of savagery unheard of in human
history. For another side, it is a tale of lost heritage, lives, family
members and persecution. The debate was allowed to continue to see if any good
would come out of it. I can see none, but I do see how the seeds of such
poison could permeate a society over 50 years ago. It is a pointless argument.
Now it is over, finis. Take your debate to another Forum, this one has had
enough of  it. Duane


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 464522
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  22:15:56

Manfred,

  Once again you are posting a message which misrepresents and lies about what
is said in a source.

<<=Inmates Released=
Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and returned
to their home countries.   If Auschwitz had actually been a top secret
extermination center, the Germans would certainly not have released inmates
who "knew" what was happening in the camp. (note 14)>>

<<14. Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: 1981), p. 169.>>


  As for <>
Lacquer states:

          Some Auschwitz inmates were actually relased by the
          German authorities.(p169)

  Absolutely nothing about inmates <> Or
<> Where does Weber get "sentences" out of
the above? And for what crimes? [Apparently being Jewish or Roma was a capital
crime.] Most of those released were due mistaken arrest, reclassification, or
in several cases the issuance of a "third party" passport by a country such as
Portugal, Mexico or Brazil. But Weber must hae a different source in mind for
"sentences" than Laqueur, as he does not discuss "sentences" at all.

  <>, Weber
apparantly also wants gullible people to believe that Laqueur says the number
of those released was rather large. If so, he should have chosen another
source than Lacquer, as Lacquer states:

       Some Auschwitz inmates were actually relased by the German
       authorities. There were 952 releases during the first six
       months of 1942 and 26 during the subsequent six months. There
       were releases from Auschwitz even in 1943. In early 1944, a
       considerable number of Jewish women were freed from the camp
       owing to the intervention of Oskar Schindler. (p169)


So Manfred and Weber want readers to believe that Laqueur says that large
numbers of inmates were released after serving out their sentences, and by
implication that most of the inmates were criminals who had been sentenced
there. But what Laqueur really says that only a very SMALL number of
concentration camp inmates were released--under a thousand in 1942, virtually
all before June [interesting to contrast that with the increase in the tempo
of extermination operations in the summer of 1942], and only a small fraction
of that number in 1943 and 1944. Even those who were "released" were not
necessarily free--the "considerable number of Jewish women" (approximately
300) freed in 1944 by Schindler were not released back to life in the cities
of Europe, but rather were sent to another work camp run by Schindler.


There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464522-The Holocaust - Not II - Msg Number: 464529
   From:  George Minde 70550,623
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  22:39:50

  As for <>, Lacqueur does not discuss that at all. In fact, he
spends the preceding five pages (p164-169), discussing specifically the
information available in 1942 and 1943 from Jewish emigres and escapees who
had direct knowledge of the camps. [That is the point of his whole book--the
"Terrible Secret" is the extent of information about the Final Solution
available to the Allies and throughout Occupied Europe in 1942 and 1943, and
why it was largely gnored.] In fact, Laqueur specifically states that there
were escapees from the camps, so information would have gotten out even if
<> were not occasionally released.

        Auschwitz was the largest of the camps, and there were 667
      escapes. 270 of the escapers were subsequently caught, but
      almost 400 got away. In 1942 there were 120 escapes, the year
      after [1943] 310. Among those who fled were at least 76 Jews;
      altogether there were probably more....When Himmler visited
      Auschwitz he complained about the 'high, unprecedented number
      of escapes from Auschwitz' and asked the commander to use every
      means to put and end to them. But the escapes continued.
        Some Auschwitz inmates were actually relased by the German
      authorities. There were 952 releases during the first six
      months of 1942 and 26 during the subsequent six months. There
      were releases from Auschwitz even in 1943. In early 1944, a
      considerable number of Jewish women were freed from the camp
      owing to the intervention of Oskar Schindler. (p168-169)

Even if there had been no releases there would have been inmates getting out
of Auschwitz--<>.


  Your pal Max deliberately mistates what Laqueur says. If he wished to write
a paragraph which used Laqueur as a source--rather than lying and sistorting
what he said--it would read like the following.

=Inmates Released=
  A very small number of inmates in Auschwitz were released, most (under 1000)
in early 1942, before the program of extermination at Auschwitz was fully
underway. While some of those who were relased did provide some information of
the extermination at Auschwitz, an even greater source of information,
especially after 1942, were the hundreds of escapees from the camp. This
further served to confirm the information about the Final Solution available
from other sources.(note14)
14. Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: 1981), p. 169.>>



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Status: RO

------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462482-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464594
   From:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  04:39:09

>>Cliff:

I participated for about 3 weeks in the german SPIEGEL forum until the sysop
asked me not to post anymore. I am  _not_  red-flagged and still read it every
day.<<

I quote Ulrich Booms, SysOp of the Spiegel Forum, Feb 24, 1996:

"Kleinsorg hat eine letzte Aufforderung bekommen, dieses Forum zu verlassen."
(Kleinsorg has received a final call to LEAVE this forum.) Mr. Booms whose
subsequently severly critisized by several forum members for *waiting so long*
with that action.

Joe




------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462480-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464596
   From:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  04:39:11

>>The Revisionsist have nothing to gain, not a single cent except the truth.
Moreover they almost pay for everything out of their own pocketts.<<

Well, a few years ago Zuendel was trying to find a few people ready to pay him
$10,000 each to join him on an expedition to the south pole to find the Nazis'
secret UFO base there. He doesn't seem to mind other people to part with their
savings for his cause...

Joe


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464446-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464616
   From:  Alex Krislov 76703,243
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  07:53:00

Cliff,

Well, of course Randi's right.  True Believers are not deterred by evidence,
facts and truth.  Your own repetition of lies, here and elsewhere,
demonstrates that.

What's surprising is that you recognize the syndrome but seem unable to find
your way to a mirror.

One of the less endearing traits of deniers is their attempt to call on
allies they don't have.  In citing Randi, this is what you've done.  I suggest
you check out his positions next time.  Checking out the facts would be a good
learning experience for you!


--Alex


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462897-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 464593
   From:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  04:39:08

>>moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish
leaders.  Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal
subordinate, Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or
Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinoviev, the
Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek all Jews.<<

Might I point out to you that a few years after that statement was made, when
in 1940 Trotsky was murdered in Mexico by GPU agent Ramon Mercader, Stalin was
left as the only surviving member of Lenin's Central Comittee of the Communist
Party from the October revolution. Some of the others (such as Lenin himself)
had died a natural death, but most of the rest including Zinoviev, Kamenew and
Bucharin had been murdered by what you call the 'Jewish Bolshevik system'. The
'Great Purges' of 1936-38 were targetted at a disproportionate number of Jews.
Stalin made use of antisemitism just as he used Russian nationalism to cement
his power.

To talk about the 'Jewish Bolshevik system' only betrays your general
ignorance of history, even outside of the holocaust. You are in good company
though. It wasn't too long ago that your friend and self-confessed hobby
historian Horst explained to us that Russian revolutionary Trotsky was a New
Yorker!

Joe
 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464432-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464615
   From:  Alex Krislov 76703,243
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  07:52:57

Manfred,

Given your history of posting bogus Talmud quotations, I hardly think we can
rely on your perceptions about Judaism.

--Alex


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464429-Engineers - Msg Number: 464538
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  04-Mar-96  23:27:04

>> Because HE WAS an engineer untill then.

        Leuchter had been practicing without a license.  Threatened with
prosecution, he signed a consent agreement stating that he was not and never
had been an engineer, that the had never taken any licensing examination and
that he would no longer present himself as a engineer nor issue any report
based on engineering opinion.

>>The Canadian judge [who said NO] is an employee of the state.  His
'judgement' is based on the premise =to keep his job=.   What value can we
place on his decision?

        The same as any other legal decision.  Judges hold their positions for
life.

>>The fact remains, the State of Missouri recomendation  was made BEFORE
anybody [and the Jews] knew the Leuchter-Report.

        And to repeat my question, what basis did Armintrout have for his
statement, other than Leuchter's own representations?


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463481-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464592
   From:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  04:39:07

>>See the appearance of Joe Wein in this Forum about two weeks ago. So much
for freedom of expression.<<

And see the sudden appearance of Cliff Swiger, Manfred Koch, William Spoor and
yourself in this forum three weeks ago. It appears the three of you have been
not regulars around here either. I can't see much that was relevant to
military issues in these threads. How come the three of you suddenly all
turned up in this forum at the same time? Maybe because no one bought your
"arguments" in ISSUES and DERSPI?

I am not stopping you from talking. I can verbally challenge what you guys say
and I have. As you seem to know quite well, there is little reason for you to
fear being prosecuted for for inciting racial hatred on an online service, as
long as you operate from outside Germany and use an foreign language forum.
You'd be in a different situation if you were to say some of the things you've
said here or in ISSUES in DERSPIE or GERLIN. I could tell by how you tried to
be more careful about what you said there, compared to here. Not that it won
you any visible support...

Accusing others as "Gestapo" members as you have is an ad hominem attack and
insult, but I prefer to fight you guys with facts, not with legal paragraphs,
because facts are more effective to help the spread of lies and distortions
while hate speech laws can be abused by you to make yourselves look like
martyrs. I think Mike Curtis, David Fuhrmann, George Minde, Forrest Johnson
and many others have done an excellent job here. In the end you have shown
yourself not as the "hobby historian" that you claimed to be in Der Spiegel,
but as an unashamed Jew hater.

Joe


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463502-Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 464595
   From:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  04:39:10

>>Please reveal your true colors! Don't try to hide.<<

Could you explain what you mean by that?


>>The sysop only asked me not to post anymore since other  red (PDS,
Communists) and pinky (left wing) members protested my postings and got rude
and abusive, since they were unable to cope with my postings with factual
arguments.<<

I don't recall you posting any "factual arguments", which probably would have
revealed too much about your views to quickly. You mostled complained about
'censorship' and 'brainwashing' but you were careful not to make claims of
Jewish conspiracies in that forum, something without which the history of the
Holocaust could be 'revised'.

The closest you ever came to arguments was your list of recommended books
(almost all of which were published by the IHR) that you were generous enough
to post in triplicate. You did use abusive language which is against forum
rules and that was why you were asked to refrain from actively participating
in the 'Spiegel' forum.


>>Just remember the threads you made against me in the SPIEGEL FORUM.  But you
can bank your bottom Pfennig, I will not forget it either.<<

Your English still seems a bit bumpy after 30 years or so away from Germany.
Yes, I contributed to threads but you probably meant "threats". All I did was
to remind you of existing German laws against inciting racial hatred. I would
call that a warning, not a threat.

Joe


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464625
   From:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
     To:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  08:27:37

Mr.Wein:
>>>>"Kleinsorg hat eine letzte Aufforderung bekommen, dieses Forum zu
verlassen." (Kleinsorg has received a final call to LEAVE this forum.) Mr.
Booms whose subsequently severly critisized by several forum members for
*waiting so long* with that action.<<<<


Is there any way that you could tell the truth for once? It appears, you don't
know what truth is anymore.

You are forgiven.

HK


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464626
   From:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
     To:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  08:27:42

Mr.Wein:

As a final answer to your ridiculous statemens get this:

>>>>and see the sudden appearance of Cliff Swiger, Manfred Koch, William Spoor
and yourself in this forum three weeks ago.<<<<
>>> It appears the three of you have been not regulars around here either. I
can't see much that was relevant to military issues in these threads. How come
the three of you suddenly all turned up in this forum at the same time? Maybe
because no one bought your "arguments" in ISSUES and DERSPI?<<<<

It appears that you are not only paranoid, but you are missing something in
your head. Before I entered this forum  I _____ never ever_____ heard of Koch,
Swiger or Spoor.
I have   ____ never___   participated or placed any messages in ISSUES or any
other forum except  SPIEGEL. Up to this moment I don't even know of an ISSUES
forum, but thanks anyway for telling me.

As a former Luftwaffe Pilot, I was looking for company of allied Air Force
Veterans  basically to shoot the beeze, not getting involved with your kind.

>>>> as long as you operate from outside Germany and use an foreign language
forum. You'd be in a different situation if you were to say some of the things
you've said here or in ISSUES in DERSPIE or GERLIN. I could tell by how you
tried to be more careful about what you said there, compared to here. Not that
it won you any visible support...<<<<<<

Again, you are full of BS. Having not participated in ISSUES or GERLINE (?)
what  did I say there?  I was lured into the SPIEGEL Forum by one of your
political brethren (Michael Deutz) after a ___private____ conversation
with him online which he then posted without my permission, denounced me to
the sysop and assured me to report me to the german police!   When I came up
with factual postings, you and your buddies had no argument but to yell Nazi,
Neo-Nazi, Anti-Semite, Jew-Hater and other complimentary descriptions for
myself.

>>>>>Accusing others as "Gestapo" members as you have is an ad hominem attack
and insult, but I prefer to fight you guys with facts, not with legal
paragraphs, because facts are more effective to help the spread of lies and
distortions while hate speech laws can be abused by you to make yourselves
look like martyrs<<<<

You would not know fact from fiction, lie from truth if you stumbled over it,
fell on your face and had a blody nose.
There is a diference between a Gestapo  Member and being a member of the
german "Internet-Gestapo".
What ever you are missing in facts, you are perfect in "Wortklauberei".

>>>>. I think Mike Curtis, David Fuhrmann, George Minde, Forrest Johnson and
many others have done an excellent job here. In the end you have shown
yourself not as the "hobby historian" that you claimed to be in Der Spiegel,
but as an ____unashamed Jew hater.______ (emphasis added. HK)

Another label again?  Perhaps you should get the  "Bundesverdienstkreuz am
Band" for this.

This is the last time shall answer your smear.

HK



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Hitler Germany-Innocent - Msg Number: 464627
   From:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
     To:  Juergen Langowski 100273,3352
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  08:27:45

>>>>>Geez, of course. By calling someone a "LEFT-FASCIST" at least twice and
saying "ihr spinnt" [you dummies] at least three times, you offered "factual
arguments" that nobody could counter. What did you expect? We're all
brain-washed, you know?<<<

I can not recall that you even participated in that discussion.  I described
some members of the SPIEGEL FORUM as 'LINKS-FASCHISTEN", ex-member of the
kommunist  SED, now called PDS because of their constant calls for my 
expulsion from the SPIEGEL Forum and denouncement to the german police
(Michael Schmidt).  For you it looks good to take things out of context. Be
ashamed of yourself.

>>>>You're not living in Germany, so maybe this explains why you don't know
much about us. The game we're playing now is called "modern democracy", and
free speech is part of it. If you think not - you said that several times -,
prove it.<<<<

If this is  is "Modern Democracy" what you are playing in Germany now, show me
what a  Dictatorship is like.
Why then denounce me to the  political police if free speech is part of it?
Have I said too much, when I pointed out that Germany needs a  First
Ammendment like the US Constitution has?

>>>>You really must hate Germany a lot, to write such a diatribe against her.
How come?<<<<

You are totally wrong. I love Germany, the Land of my ancestors more than
anything else and I served it with honor.  What I don't like is people like
yourself, constantly  "katzbuckeln" before anyone comming along and instilling
guilt in the german people, its history, its leaders  and completely turning
historical facts to suit their political agenda today.
Many  Germans lived outside Germany during the 3.Reich. Did they also hate
Germany when they disagreed?

Now lay back, sipp another Heineken and think about it.

HK


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464431-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464642
   From:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  09:21:27

My lights are on, and they light the truth.  (Even I'm wincing .)

The World Jewish Congress was founded in 1936.  Another of your "facts" has
been shot down.  Please post some more, I could use the target practice.

BTW, the spelling is Weizman, Sir Chaim Weizman.

/\vner


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462547-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464966
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:27:58

George:

CGS<>

>>Tell us how it should have been determined that the bodies were Jews.<<

How the heck should I know??? The Zionist Jews were the ones who said they
were Jews. What were the results of their FORENSIC examinations? Good luck on
this one, pal.

>> I am curious as to what natomical or forensic differences you would expect
to find.<<

So am I! Just how did these Jews know all those bodies were Jews? Its a crazy
assertion isn't it? You've turned the gun on yourself, George. For the very
thing you're asking me to prove HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN! Neat, huh?

Cliff



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463645-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464967
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:28:05

CGS <>

>>Somewhat disingenuous on your part, as the general contention--based on
testimony by inmates, guards, motive, opportunity, et cetera--is that those
gassed were immediately cremated.<<

But what about all those emaciated corpses being shoved around by a big
bulldozer that I was shown on TV as a kid? Man, there must have a thousand of
them. How'd they all die? Be careful now. And what about those cattle cars all
jam packed with bodies (allegedly all Jews) how'd they die? Surely they were
"gassed", George. For goodness sakes, don't you think at least most of them
were "gassed" by the Nazis? When I was a kid, this is what I was lead to
believe. Clear this up for me.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463468- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 464965
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:27:47

Joe:

CGS>>In his book, "Books and Bookmen", he had to admit: "there were no
extermination camps on German soil."<<

>>People sent to camps inside Germany itself (e.g. Dachau, Buchenwald,
Bergen-Belsen, usw.) as opposed to camps in occupied territories in Poland
(Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor) in their majority were not killed straight on
arrival to the camps. Most people who died in Dachau or Bergen-Belsen had been
there months or years, often working in quarries or conducting other hard
labour with too little food.<<

Maybe so, but the fact is, according to "Liesandall", there were no alleged
extermination factories on German soil. You've basically confirmed
this.............., thanks.

>>Most people killed in Auschwitz and Treblinka on the other hand were never
even registered in the camp books. A large proportion of the victims were
marched straight from the trains to the gas chambers.<<

No working "gas chamber" has ever been operationally described. Oh you've got
your little plastic model at the Holohoax Museum (that I helped pay for with
my taxes) that says to the effect, "The Jews entered here. They were gassed
here. Then their bodies were cremated here," and so forth. But this proves
nothing.....absolutely nothing.

>>With above statement Simon Wiesenthal was by no means saying there were no
extermination camps. He simply explained that they were located in occupied
Poland, not in Germany itself! Who are you trying to mislead?<<

NO ONE! You apparently mislead yourself. I know what "Lies-and-all" alleged
happened in Poland, an area conveniently located behind the Iron Curtain after
WW2 where no Western investigators could visit! You've confirmed everything
I've said here.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463993-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 464974
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:28:36

Forrest:

CGS>>How about the site of ash pile where a forensic examination has been
conducted. There had to be tons and tons of ashes.<<

>>How many ashes would you expect to find after they'd been buried for 50
years?<<

Darn it, you didn't take the bait! There is supposed to be a Jewish ash pile
at the Auschwitz Museum in Poland. Has anyone tested this ash pile for
cremation remains?

>> Another hoax?  Your history seems to be full of them. On what grounds do
you dispute the existence of Jesus?<<

There is no history of "The King of the Jews" outside fictitious religious
works.

>>The historical evidence for Jesus is really quite strong. Besides the
Gospels, there are also references in the Talmud.<<

Yea, another religious concoction. I've read about "Jesus" in the Talmud. I
especially like the story where Judas and Jesus wrestle in the sky! Its a
bitter fight, tooth and nail all the way until Judas whips out his secret 
weapon and urinates on Christ. Rendering him "unclean", he plummets back to
Earth and Judas is victorious. All is well in hand for Judas.

>> And Roman histories confirm the existence of a Christian church only a
short time after his death.<<

Big deal. Presence of a cult does not validate the existence of it's deity.

Cliff




------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463992-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 464973
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:28:28

>> I think your logic isn't much if you assume that anyone in Auschwitz must
have been a criminal and therefore unreliable. You insist that all crimes
alleged against the Nazis be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, but, on the
other hand, you casually assume that anyone in Auschwitz must have been a
criminal.<<

This is not what I meant. Most all the damaging testimony comes from
"holocaust survivors" as you well know. Certainly not all witness accounts
were of this nature. Such as Wilhelm Staeglich's testimony.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463650-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464961
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:27:17

CGS<>

>>Let me get this straight. <> Which is it? Does this "particular race" exist or
not? Is there a "Greek" race? A "French" race? A "German" race? An Aryan
race?<<

Reread my statement. The group of people commonly referred to as "Jews"
comprise, as a high per centage, a distinct race of man. Its that simple.
There is no classification such as Homo Sapien Jew as compared to Homo Sapien
Alba which has two distinct sub races, Alpines and Nordics.

>>It must be very hard to live a life in which you are so pre-occupied by
<> and <>.<<

Actually, I just like science.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464020-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464963
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:27:27

CGS>>There is a particular race of man defined in scientific terms of which
the overwhelming majority are commonly called "Jews."<<

>>"Defined in scientific terms" by who?<<

Dr. John R. Baker, a Fellow of the Royal Society, is Emeritus Reader in
Cytology at Oxford University, England, where he was a Profesional Fellow of
New College and president of the Royal Microscopical Society.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463651-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464962
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:27:22

CGS<>

>>Why Cliff, you were just saying a few days ago that all this religion stuff
is pure quackery, "miracles" and all that. Why should it hold water now?<<

Hey man, people are driven by all sorts of superstition and as far as they're
concerned its reality. The ramifications for such irrational belief can be
quite serious. Sorta like those Hamas (is that how its spelled?) Arabs. I
assume they're driven by some spin off Islamic denomination. Its not the
reality of what they believe, but the effects of that belief.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463779-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464968
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Aaron Nagano 72624,443
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:28:09

Aaron:

>>Read about a religion before you make redneck comments about it.<<

Redneck! Hold on while I put a dip of Copenhagen in my lip. You done peed me
off! Mmmmm, that's better. I'm no redneck, Aaron. I haven't blacked my wife's
eye in weeks. And shucks, last payday I didn't even get drunk, had tuh git a
lift kit fer my 4WD.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463994-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464970
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:28:14

Forrest:

>>Nothing is wrong with the truth.  This same "Jew book," which you purchased,
says that the Jews were killed by gassing.  Where is the contradiction?<<

Levi makes his comments based on hearsay. He never saw any "gassings"
personally. He does not describe one in his book.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #464031-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464960
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:27:10

CGS>>The fact that the holocaust is a myth has nothing to do with recruiting
someone to join a National Socialist political organization.<<

>>Har!  The IHR was founded by Willis Carto, the neo-Nazi who runs the Liberty
Lobby and is a founder of the Populist Party, which sponsored David Duke as a
presidential candidate. IHR propaganda was regularly published in Carto's _The
Spotlight_ magazine and distributed by neo-Nazis here and in Europe.<<

Although your comments are spurious, you proved nothing here as regards my
statement.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463646-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 464959
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:27:03

George:

CGS<>

>>Take a look at geography. I'm sure that even you could see that the above
was not true in Egypt's case.<<

Lighten up, George. It was a joke for crying out loud. Besides, Egypt doesn't
count. Its in bed with Israel.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463652-The Holocaust - Not III - Msg Number: 464958
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:26:59

George:

CGS<>

>>Here we see an example of this. You seem to want to ignore testimony from
inmates which we provide--direct proof--but then want to trot out testimony
from inmates yourself. Which is it? DO we consider testimony from camp
inmates? Leave it all out of consideration? Or is there a more subjective
standard, such as "if it supports the argument that there was a Holocaust it
should be ignored, but if it supports the Revisionists it should be
considered"?<<

Now, now, George. YOU are the one who is so convinced by testimony; not me. I
simply gave you examples of court testimony from individuals who were interned
at Auschwitz-Birkenau who said no holocaust occurred there. It's up to you to
sort through it. I, on the other hand, take a pretty skeptical view towards
testimony on either side. I'm not against investigating the claims of
holocausters or cross examining the witnesses who said no holocaust occurred
there. But, I am playing the role of juror, and I will sift through the
evidence and draw my own conclusions.

It remains, the holocaust mythologists have very, very little to support their
allegation of a holocaust other than testimony.

>>The imagery acquired on 13 September 1944 provides a unique view of Gas
Chambers and Crematoria IV and V (Photo 7). Located among the trees of the
"Birch Wood, these facilities could not be seen by surviving prisoners in the
camp. (p12) [Photo 7 also on page 12]<<

Well then what about all those "surviving prisoners" who claimed to witness
"gassings" and mass cremations upon which you rely so heavily?

>>  As for <> please see my post to Manfred. The concern about <> is particularly disingenuous, given how the gas chambers and
crematoria were connected. As for palls of smoke, you may want to observe how
weather affects smoke, and note what weather provides the best conditions for
aerial reconnaissance.<<

George, your grasping at straws. The reconnaissance photos showed NOTHING out
of the ordinary. No gassings, no mass graves, no piles of dead Jews.

>> Also, how in all three sets of photos, there seems to have been a recently
arrived transport, with prisoners starting their trip to the gas
chambers/crematoria.<<

There "SEEMS" to have been? What's all this talk about smoky conditions in
your last paragraph? Am I to believe that the conditions were not the same
when the photos you speak of were taken? Especially since there was this
holocaust thing going on? You know, all those tens of thousands of bodies
"floating darkly to the sky." And how do you know this group of people in the
photo were condemned to the "gas chamber" and then up the ol' stackaroo?

>> As for <>, someone has clearly lied to you. Look
at the imagery from August and September. Brugioni and Poirer clearly state<<

The photos I speak of were taken by military intelligence.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463481-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 464964
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:27:37

Hi Horst:

>>Not so fast, Cliff.   The german "Thought Police" operates not only in
Germany but also here in the USA. People may not be aware of this. Even this
Forum is  screened by them.<<

Oh I'm sure a lot of entities peruse these fora. I hope they are. Maybe
they'll learn some facts. Maybe they'll realize that the jig is up on
censorship, and I mean globally. How would you like to be one of those held
responsible for oppression of free speech when this thing finally boils over?
Now you see the anxiety they face. Should they confess, and point their finger
at the perpetrators, or stay within the ranks and hope for the best? Tough
decision.

I think what really amazes me about this holocaust myth is how those
supporting the legend find justification for all the injustice slopped upon
the escutcheon of Western jurisprudence. Extorted affidavits, rubber stamped
court "affidavits" against the accused where the "witness does not have to
show in court for cross examination, and hearsay evidence admitted in criminal
prosecution. These folks just LOVE these documents.

Now on the other hand, If one tosses out, say, a copy of the Protocols of the
Learned Elders of Zion, as "evidence" that the Zionists are up to something,
why they exclaim, "BUT THOSE ARE A FORGERY!, CONGRESS SAID SO!" It makes no
difference that Zionist Jews control ALL the major mass media in the US, or
that Clinton's appointments were over 50% Jews, or that there are probably
1000 Israeli political action committees here in America lobbying for Israel
(ask Paul Findley), or that over $10 billion in US taxpayer money somehow
finds its way to some rinky-dink Marxist country in the Middle East.

Oh our concerns are certainly evidence of paranoia!

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 464972
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Joe Wein 100142,3715
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  05-Mar-96  23:28:23

Joe:

>>Assuming ash had about twice the density of water, that amount cover a one
acre field to a depth of about two feet. Not exactly an impossible amount to
dispose of from a camp that extended over hundreds of acres. About 4 tons a
day over a period of three years means that (if your estimate is in the right
ballpark) a single truck could have disposed of it with just one trip a day to
a nearby river. So much for that argument.<<

Isn't there a Jew ash pile at the Auschwitz Museum in Poland? Has anyone done
a forensic examination on the contents of this ash pile?

Cliff

=====================================================
Message: #472071, S/14  Coffee Shop
Date:    Sat, 30 Mar, 1996 0:00:29
Subject: #471865-Russian Revolution
From:    Cliff Swiger 76053,707
To:      George Minde 70550,623 (deletable)


George:

>>So the majority faction--the Bolsheviks, who went on to actually start the
revolution in October 1917, and ran the government--were led by a non-Jew.
Doesn't sound like a Jewish-Bolshevik state to me.<<

True, it does not. But why must I repeat myself? Who were those behind the
scene who supported Lenin? Here is some insight: In Geneva (about 1900) Lenin
joined the "Group for the Emancipation of Labor", and in December "the Group"
began the publication  of ISKRA (The Spark). This marked the beginning of
Russian Marxism and Lenin's role as a leader. The editorial board of ISKRA
consisted of Zasulich, Axelrod, Lenin's Jewess wife Krupsakaya, Totsky and
Martov. All JEWS!

--small clip--

>>You seem to imply that since the 'leadership' was ethnically Jewish, the
members were too. Tell me, did you or your parents convert to Roman Catholicism
when Kenendy was president, or get an "Irish heritige' implant? That would seem
to be consistent with your argument.<<

Not so fast, George. I'm not saying that many non-Jews didn't subscribe to the
politics of the Jews. I am saying that Communism, as we know it, is a product
of Ashkenazi Jews.

  << I think this list certainly bolsters my position.>>

>>So figure out the breakdown...how many of the delegates were Jewish?<<

I don't know and it does not matter for the sake of my argument! I'm simply
saying that communism is a product of Jews regardless of who follows it's
ideology. Is this so difficult for you to understand?

>>Or am I now talking to a former Irish Catholic (since we no longer have an
Irish Catholic president.)<<

Do you really think I associate myself in any way with some Middle Eastern,
Jewish, metaphysical concoction like Christianity? I claim to be an agnostic,
but some say I'm an atheist.

CS<< Heck, many a Jew took a head bashing during the Civil Rights movement of
the 1960s. But who actually enforces the enacted measures?>>

>>So are you now saying that the US is not a constitutional republic but rather
a Jewish democracy? [Perhaps you could enlighten us on whether you think that
poll taxes, segregation, lynching, et al. were good things or bad things.]<<

I'll refer you to the groups who fomented modern day communism. The leaders
were predominately Jews and they loved that term "democracy" . Poll
taxes=capitation taxes. This is a direct tax that can be imposed by the federal
government and it is perfectly constitutional and fair. I'm all for
segregation. Hell, it happens regardless of the leftists' attempts to impose it
on the population. Lynching MAY have had it's justification. There was a lot of
federal terror during the Reconstruction Era.

George, I'm not sure whether or not you are a Jew. If you are, I certainly do
not blame you for protecting your own interests. I'll lay my cards on the
table, maybe you will? This way we will know exactly where we stand and why. I
am White male. I am also very much a racist but not in the manner as depicted
by the Jewish controlled media. I'm not out to kill Jews, Blacks and Asians nor
are probably 99.9% of the White racists in the world. I am politically a
National Socialist. This is the best form of government and social system for
ALL races to follow. So where do you stand?

Cliff


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