The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: 11 Nov 1996 01:21:23 GMT
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 One funny argument to proove the extermination charge for Treblinka is
 Suchomel's testimony. It is claim that Suchomel was (falsely) promised
 anonymity in exchange for this interview.  In the interview 'Suchomel' ask
 himself to not mention his name. I've see most of the movie and it is
 strange that only in Suchomel' interview we have a bluerred picture were
 the face of the man is not easilly recognizable. I suppose that the claim
 is that Suchomel was filmed without being aware of it and this can explain
 the poor quality of the image. However, if one look carefully at the image
 the picture do not shake, it's hard to claim that someone has the camera
 in a bag. I don't see how such an interview conducted with a 'hidden camera'
 could give such a poor image: the way it looks, it is as if an original
 clear picture was shown with a TV and that a camera was used again to film
 what appear on a screen. I saw several times pictures taken by a camera
 from a TV screen and it looks like that. I saw also many sketch were an
 actor used a rubber or plastic mask to looks like that or that politician.
 Here, such an imitation is not perfect and it is possible to recognize the
 imitation unless the image is of a poor quality.

    The funny aspect in 'Suchomel' testimony is that we have to believe that
  he's not supposed to be aware about the hidden camera since he request
  anonymity. However he turn his his head a couple of times toward the
  camera. But the odd here is that when he shows something on the Treblinka
  map (on the wall) with his stick the camera move in this direction and
  we have a picture of the map from a couple of inches!!! The samething
  can be say about the distance between 'Suchomel' head, there's 2 different
  distances in the movie. Now I'd have to believe that a man, hidding a camera
  in a bag, stand up with his bag an get it near the map each time that
  Suchomel show something with his stick on it (see cassette 2, 9 or 10
  minutes after the beginning).


    There's also a couple of funny claims done by the man, but let say
   that this aspect is hardly explanable.





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From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:12:36 -0500
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Oh, it isn't really Franz Suchomel on the tape.  I see.

Please explain why the real Franz Suchomel has not denounced this
interview as a forgery and sued the hell out of the filmmakers.

Posted;  emailed;  please reply publicly.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 06:15:22 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
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In , jamie@voyager.net
(Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Oh, it isn't really Franz Suchomel on the tape.  I see.
>
>Please explain why the real Franz Suchomel has not denounced this
>interview as a forgery and sued the hell out of the filmmakers.
>
>Posted;  emailed;  please reply publicly.

Jamie, I'm surprised at you. Isn't it obvious? There never was a Franz
Suchomel. He's just a part of the gigantic fiction, and Lanzmann is in
on it. Just wait: Jean-Francois will tell you so himself.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
-- 
The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: hmazal@txdirect.net (Harry W. Mazal OBE)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 06:35:50 GMT
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On 11 Nov 1996 01:21:23 GMT, Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
wrote:

[Text deleted for brevity]

> I don't see how such an interview conducted with a 'hidden camera'
> could give such a poor image: [...] I saw several times pictures taken by a camera
> from a TV screen and it looks like that. [...]
>
>[...] Now I'd have to believe that a man, hidding a camera
>  in a bag, stand up with his bag an get it near the map each time that
>  Suchomel show something with his stick on it (see cassette 2, 9 or 10
>  minutes after the beginning).

What Mr. Beaulieu does not know about surreptitious filming would fill
a book.  Is it not possible that more than one camera was involved?
Is it not possible that at least one high definition camera was
located outside the apartment?     What is the point of  bringing
these points up? Does Mr. Beaulieu believe that the filming did _not_
take place? 
>
>
>    There's also a couple of funny claims done by the man, but let say
>   that this aspect is hardly explanable.

"Funny?"   I don't remember anything funny about the film. It is a
terribly sober piece of cinematography.






Harry W. Mazal OBE

Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
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From: John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:28:09 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
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In <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

[a rather stupid argument that the Suchomel interviewed in Lanzmann's
documentary was not the real Suchomel]

Golly, you have become awfully predictable. If you don't like a
document, it is a forgery. If you don't like a witness, he is lying or
was tortured. Now we can add to your list of predictable responses
that, if you don't like an interview, the person being interviewed was
an actor.

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
-- 
The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: Annie Alpert 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:19:20 -0500
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To: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 

Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:
> 
>  One funny argument to proove the extermination charge for Treblinka is
>  Suchomel's testimony. It is claim that Suchomel was (falsely) promised
>  anonymity in exchange for this interview.  In the interview 'Suchomel' ask
>  himself to not mention his name. I've see most of the movie and it is
>  strange that only in Suchomel' interview we have a bluerred picture were
>  the face of the man is not easilly recognizable. I suppose that the claim
>  is that Suchomel was filmed without being aware of it and this can explain
>  the poor quality of the image. 

"The claim is"?  What claim?  By whom?  J-F, don't let's be silly about
this.  No one claimed that Mr. Suchomel was not aware he was being
filmed.  You're making things up!  I realize English is not your first
language, but even YOu can easily check to see if Mr. Suchomel recanted
at any time after the film came out.  He didn't.

-- 
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
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From: 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:02:13 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

> One funny argument to proove the extermination charge for Treblinka is
> Suchomel's testimony. It is claim that Suchomel was (falsely) promised
> anonymity in exchange for this interview.  In the interview 'Suchomel' ask
> himself to not mention his name. I've see most of the movie and it is
> strange that only in Suchomel' interview we have a bluerred picture were
> the face of the man is not easilly recognizable. 

Did you see another interviews of Suchomel in the 70's ? Unlike you, I
recognized Suchomel very easily, at the first look, despite the poor
quality of the picture. Perhaps the copy in NTSC standard ? It's
really Suchomel we see, if  you insinuate that he isn't.

>I suppose that the claim
> is that Suchomel was filmed without being aware of it and this can explain
> the poor quality of the image. However, if one look carefully at the image
> the picture do not shake, it's hard to claim that someone has the camera
> in a bag.

If the bag was putted on a table or the floor, the camera will be
steady. In fact, that's obviously how it was made if you carefully
look at Shoah: the image is steady for a while, then it becomes hectic
until the bag is released again.

> I don't see how such an interview conducted with a 'hidden camera'
> could give such a poor image: the way it looks, it is as if an original
> clear picture was shown with a TV and that a camera was used again to film
> what appear on a screen.

You got it. The camera is a TV camera with a transceiver VHF or UHF,
and the copy in 35mm reflects the bad quality (in the seventies) of a
micro-camera in B&W, with a poor-powered transceiver and an antennae
of low gain. It was the only noiseless system who can be used to film
with the dim light of a flat.

>    The funny aspect in 'Suchomel' testimony is that we have to believe that
>  he's not supposed to be aware about the hidden camera since he request
>  anonymity. However he turn his his head a couple of times toward the
>  camera.

Or beside the bag toward the assistant of Lanzmann, who was likely
apparently listening and taking notes.

> But the odd here is that when he shows something on the Treblinka
>  map (on the wall) with his stick the camera move in this direction and
>  we have a picture of the map from a couple of inches!!! The samething
>  can be say about the distance between 'Suchomel' head, there's 2 different
>  distances in the movie. Now I'd have to believe that a man, hidding a camera
>  in a bag, stand up with his bag an get it near the map each time that
>  Suchomel show something with his stick on it (see cassette 2, 9 or 10
>  minutes after the beginning).

Ouch, a couple of inches.. about 5 cm. For a big vertical map of
perhaps 1 meter or more in height. I'm puzzled and afraid it's an
exaggeration (in my opinion, it could be rather 1.5m). I would like to
verify, but your clues (2, 9 or 10mn) aren't understandable for me.
The interview of Suchomel is dispersed in almost 4 hours of the movie,
cut off in short runs and all the movie is edited in a
non-chronological way. If my memory deserves, it is a zoom-in at one
time, obtained at post-editing. And two distances, not so different,
but I can't see what was wrong if the assistant once moved to see
better the map, giving two distances as a result ? Was it odd to come
a little closer in such circumstances?

Suchomel testified many times in trials. He never varied. He told
Lanzmann that gassings occurred with accurate details. He told Sereny
that gassings occurred. He was sentenced, jailed, released. He had no
more to do it, if it was untruth. Nothing to lose, and (whatever you
might think) nothing to gain.





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From: klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:58:42 GMT
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On Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:28:09 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
Morris) wrote:

>In <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>
>[a rather stupid argument that the Suchomel interviewed in Lanzmann's
>documentary was not the real Suchomel]
>
>Golly, you have become awfully predictable. If you don't like a
>document, it is a forgery. If you don't like a witness, he is lying or
>was tortured. Now we can add to your list of predictable responses
>that, if you don't like an interview, the person being interviewed was
>an actor.


Yes, isn't it amazing. The more damaging the testimony the
greater the absurdities our revisionists will engage in to
mitigate the circumstances.

Perhaps it is time to replay the testimony:

--

The text below is from:

Lanzmann, Claude.  Shoah:  An Oral History of the Holocaust.
Pantheon Books. New York.  1985.

The book is simply a transcript of the subtitles of the famous
documentary film "Shoah," directed by Claude Lanzmann.  Below are
all the sections of the book where Franz Suchomel is interviewed.
In the book, the interviewer's words are italicized and
Suchomel's are not; here, the speaker's name will be inserted, to
avoid confusion.  Italic emphasis in the original is indicated
here by _underscores_.

The interview with Suchomel was conducted in German, without a
translator, and was subtitled in English for the American edition
of the film.

It should be noted that Suchomel was (falsely) promised anonymity
in exchange for this interview.  Any claim that he was coerced
into this testimony, or that he was inventing a fantasy to share
with the world for some reason, is therefore quite ridiculous.

This work was kindly loaned to Nizkor by the League for Human
Rights of B'nai Brith Canada, Toronto, Ontario.


pp. 52-57
---------

TREBLINKA

Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer

Lanzmann (interviewer):  Are we ready?

Suchomel:  Yes.  We can begin.

Lanzmann:  How's your heart?  Is everything in order?

Suchomel:  Oh, my heart -- for the moment, it's all right.  If I
have any pain, I'll tell you.  We'll have to break off.

Lanzmann:  Of course.  But your health, in general, is...

Suchomel:  The weather today suits me fine.  The barometric
pressure is high;  that's good for me.

Lanzmann:  You look to be in good shape, anyway.  Let's begin
with Treblinka.  I believe you got there in August?  Was it
August 20 or 24?

Suchomel:  The eighteenth.

Lanzmann:  The eighteenth?

Suchomel:  I don't know exactly.  Around August 20, I arrived
there with seven other men.

Lanzmann:  From Berlin?

Suchomel:  From Berlin.

Lanzmann:  From Lublin?

Suchomel:  From Berlin to Warsaw, from Warsaw to Lublin, from
Lublin back to Warsaw and from Warsaw to Treblinka.

Lanzmann:  What was Treblinka like then?

Suchomel:  Treblinka then was operating at full capacity.

Lanzmann:  Full capacity?

Suchomel:  Full capacity!  The Warsaw ghetto was being emptied
then. Three trains arrived in two days, each with three, four,
five thousand people aboard, all from Warsaw.  But at the same
time, other trains came in from Kielce and other places.  So
three trains arrived, and since the offensive against Stalingrad
was in full swing, the trainloads of Jews were left on a station
siding. What's more, the cars were French, made of steel.  So
that while five thousand Jews arrived in Treblinka, three
thousand were dead in the cars.  They had slashed their wrists,
or just died.  The ones we unloaded were half dead and half mad.
In the other trains from Kielce and elsewhere, at least half were
dead.  We stacked them here, here, here and here.  Thousands of
people piled one on top of another on the ramp.  Stacked like
wood.  In addition, other Jews, still alive, waited there for two
days: the small gas chambers could no longer handle the load.
They functioned day and night in that period.

Lanzmann:  Can you please describe, very precisely, your first
impression of Treblinka?  Very precisely.  It's very important.

Suchomel:  My first impression of Treblinka, and that of some of
the other men, was catastrophic.  For we had not been told how
and what...that people were being killed there.  They hadn't told
us.

Lanzmann:  You didn't know?

Suchomel:  No!

Lanzmann:  Incredible!

Suchomel:  But true.  I didn't want to go.  That was proved at my
trial. I was told:  "Mr. Suchomel, there are big workshops there
for tailors and shoemakers, and you'll be guarding them."

Lanzmann:  But you knew it was a camp?

Suchomel:  Yes.  We were told:  "The Fuehrer ordered a
_resettlement program_. It's an _order from the Fuehrer_."
Understand?

Lanzmann:  Resettlement program.

Suchomel:  Resettlement program.  No one ever spoke of killing.

Lanzmann:  I understand.  Mr. Suchomel, we're not discussing you,
only Treblinka.  You are a very important eyewitness, and you can
explain what Treblinka was.

Suchomel:  But don't use my name.

Lanzmann:  No, I promised.  All right, you've arrived at
Treblinka.

Suchomel:  So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camp from end to
end. Just as we went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors,
and people fell out like potatoes.  Naturally, that horrified and
appalled us.  We went back and sat down on our stuicases and
cried like old women.

Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the
mass graves.  In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into
the gas chambers or shot them.  Every day!

It was in the hottest days of August.  The ground undulated like
waves because of the gas.

Lanzmann:  From the bodies?

Suchomel:  Bear in mind, the graves were maybe eighteen, twenty
feet deep, all crammed with bodies!  A thin layer of sand, and
the heat.  You see?  It was a hell up there.

Lanzmann:  You saw that?

Suchomel:  Yes, just once, the first day.  We puked and wept.

Lanzmann:  You wept?

Suchomel:  We wept too, yes.  The smell was infernal because gas
was constantly escaping.  It stank horribly for miles around.
You could smell it everywhere. It depended on the wind.  The
stink was carried on the wind.  Understand?

More people kept coming, always more, whom we hadn't the
facilities to kill. The brass was in a rush to clean out the
Warsaw ghetto.  The gas chambers couldn't handle the load. The
small gas chambers.  The Jews had to wait their turn for a day,
two days, three days. They foresaw what was coming.  They foresaw
it.  They may not have been certain, but many knew. There were
Jewish women who slashed their daughters' wrists at night, then
cut their own.  Others poisoned themselves.

They heard the engine feeding the gas chamber.  A tank engine was
used in that gas chamber.  At Treblinka the only gas used was
engine exhaust. Zyklon gas -- that was Auschwitz.

Because of the delay, Eberl, the camp commandant, phoned Lublin
and said:  "We can't go on this way.  I can't do it any longer.
We have to break off."  Overnight, Wirth arrived.  He inspected
everything and then left.  He returned with people from Belzec,
experts.  Wirth arranged to suspend the trains.  The corpses
lying there were cleared away.  That was the period of the old
gas chambers.  Because there were so many dead that couldn't be
gotten rid of, the bodies piled up around the gas chambers and
stayed there for days. Under this pile of bodies was a cesspool
three inches deep, full of blood, worms and shit.  No one wanted
to clean it out.  The Jews preferred to be shot rather than work
there.

Lanzmann:  Preferred to be shot?

Suchomel:  It was awful.  Burying their own people, seeing it
all.  The dead flesh came off in their hands.  So Wirth went
there himself with a few Germans and had long belts rigged up
that were wrapped around the dead torsos to pull them.

Lanzmann:  Who did that?

Suchomel:  SS men and Jews.

Lanzmann:  Jews too?

Suchomel:  Jews too!

Lanzmann:  What did the Germans do?

Suchomel:  They forced the Jews to...

Lanzmann:  They beat them?

Suchomel:  ...or they themselves helped with the cleanup.

Lanzmann:  Which Germans did that?

Suchomel:  Some of our guards who were assigned up there.

Lanzmann:  The Germans themselves?

Suchomel:  They had to.

Lanzmann:  They were in command!

Suchomel:  They were in command, but they were also commanded.

Lanzmann:  I think the Jews did it.

Suchomel:  In that case, the Germans had to lend a hand.


pp. 61-63
---------

Suchomel:  The new gas chambers were built in September 1942.

Lanzmann:  Who built them?

Suchomel:  Hackenhold and Lambert supervised the Jews who did the
work, the bricklaying at least.  Ukrainian carpenters made the
doors.  The gas-chamber doors themselves were armoder hunker
doors.  I think they were brought from Bialystok, from some
Russian bunkers.

Lanzmann:  What was the capacity of the new gas chambers?  There
were two of them, right?

Suchomel:  Yes.  But the old ones hadn't been demolished.  When
there were a lot of trains, a lot of people, the old ones were
put back into service.  And here...the Jews say there were five
on each side.  I say there were four, but I'm not sure.  In any
case, only the upper row on this side was in action.

Lanzmann:  Why not the other side?

Suchomel:  Disposing of the bodies would have been too
complicated.

Lanzmann:  Too far?

Suchomel:  Yes.  Up there Wirth had built the death camp,
assigning a detail of Jewish workers to it.  The detail had a
fixed number in it, around two hundred people, who worked only in
the death camp.

Lanzmann:  But what was the capacity of the new gas chambers?

Suchomel:  The new gas chambers...  Let's see...  They could
finish off three thousand people in two hours.

Lanzmann:  How many people at once in a single gas chamber?

Suchomel:  I can't say exactly.  The Jews say two hundred.
Imagine a room this size.

Lanzmann:  They put more in at Auschwitz.

Suchomel:  Auschwitz was a factory!

Lanzmann:  And Treblinka?

Suchomel:  I'll give you my definition.  Keep this in mind!
Treblinka was a primitive but effective production line of death.
Understand?

Lanzmann:  Yes.  But primitive?

Suchomel:  Primitive, yes.  But it worked well, that production
line of death.

Lanzmann:  Was Belzec even more rudimentary?

Suchomel:  Belzec was the laboratory.  Wirth was camp commandant.
He tried everything imaginable there.  He got off on the wrong
foot.  The pits were overflowing and the cesspool seeped out in
front of the SS mess hall.  It stank -- in front of the mess
hall, in front of their barracks.

Lanzmann:  Were you at Belzec?

Suchomel:  No.  Wirth with his own men -- with Franz, with
Oberhauser and Hackenhold -- he tried everything there.  Those
three had to put the bodies in the pits themselves so that Wirth
could see how much space he needed.  And when they rebelled --
Franz refused -- Wirth beat Franz with a whip.  He whipped
Hackenhold too.  You see?

Lanzmann:  Kurt Franz?

Suchomel:  Kurt Franz.  That's how Wirth was.  Then, with that
experiment behind him, he came to Treblinka.


pp. 105-111
-----------

Suchomel:  "Looking squarely ahead, brave and joyous,
            at the world,
            the squads march to work.
            All that matters now is Treblinka.
            It is our destiny.
            That's why we've become one with Treblinka
            in no time at all.
            We know only the word of our commander,
            we know only obedience and duty,
            we want to serve, to go on serving,
            until a little luck ends it all.  Hurray!"

Lanzmann:  Once more, but louder!

Suchomel:  We're laughing about it, but it's so sad!

Lanzmann:  No one's laughing.

Suchomel:  Don't be sore at me.  You want history -- I'm giving
you history. Franz wrote the words.  The melody came from
Buchenwald.  Camp Buchenwald, where Franz was a guard.  New Jews
who arrived in the morning, new "worker Jews," were taught the
song.  And by evening they had to be able to sing along with it.

Lanzmann:  Sing it again.

Suchomel:  All right.

Lanzmann:  It's very important.  But loud!

Suchomel:  "Looking squarely ahead, brave and joyous,
            at the world,
            the squads march to work.
            All that matters now is Treblinka.
            It is our destiny.
            That's why we've become one with Treblinka
            in no time at all.
            We know only the word of our Commander,
            we know only obedience and duty,
            we want to serve, to go on serving,
            until a little luck ends it all.  Hurray!"

Satisfied?  That's unique.  No Jew knows that today!

Lanzmann:  How was it possible in Treblinka in peak days to
"process" eighteen thousand people?

Suchomel:  Eighteen thousand is too high.

Lanzmann:  But I read that figure in court reports.

Suchomel:  Sure.

Lanzmann:  To "process" eighteen thousand people, to liquidate
them...

Suchomel:  Mr. Lanzmann, that's an exaggeration.  Believe me.

Lanzmann:  How many?

Suchomel:  Twelve thousand to fifteen thousand.  But we had to
spend half the night at it.  In January the trains started
arriving at 6 A.M.

Lanzmann:  Always at 6 A.M.?

Suchomel:  Not always.  Often.  The schedules were erratic.
Sometimes one came at 6 A.M., then another at noon, maybe another
late in the evening.  You see?

Lanzmann:  So a train arrived.  I'd like you to describe in
detail the whole process during the peak period.

Suchomel:  The trains left Malkinia station for Treblinka
station.  It was about six miles. Treblinka was a village.  A
small village.  As a station, it gained in importance becaose of
the transport of Jews. Thirty to fifty cars would arrive.  They
were divided into sections of ten or twelve or fifteen cars and
shunted into Treblinka Camp and brought to the ramp.  The other
cars waited, loaded with people, in the Treblinka station.  The
windows were closed off with barbed wire so no one could get out.
On the roofs were the "hellhounds," the Ukrainians or Latvians.
The Latvians were the worst.  On the ramp, for each car, there
stood two Jews from the Blue Squad to speed things up.  They
said: "Get out, get out.  Hurry, hurry!"  There were also
Ukrainians and Germans.

Lanzmann:  How many Germans?

Suchomel:  From three to five.

Lanzmann:  No more?

Suchomel:  No more.  I can assure you.

Lanzmann:  How many Ukrainians?

Suchomel:  Ten.

Lanzmann:  Ten Ukrainians, five Germans.  Two, that is, twenty
people from the Blue Squad.

Suchomel:  Men from the Blue Squad were here, and here they send
the people inside.  The Red Squad was here.

Lanzmann:  What was the Red Squad's job?

Suchomel:  The clothes!  To carry the clothes taken off by the
men and by the women up here immediately.

Lanzmann:  How long was it between the unloading at the ramp and
the undressing, how many minutes?

Suchomel:  For the women let's say an hour in all.  An hour, an
hour and a half.  A whole train took two hours.  In two hours it
was all over...

Lanzmann:  Between the time of arrival...

Suchomel:  and death...

Lanzmann:  ...it was all over in two hours?

Suchomel:  Two hours, two and a half hours, three hours.

Lanzmann:  A whole train?

Suchomel:  Yes, a whole train.

Lanzmann:  And for only one section, for ten cars, how long?

Suchomel:  I can't calculate that, because the sections came one
after another and people flooded in constantly, understand?
Usually, the men waiting who sat there, or there, were sent
straight up via the "funnel." The women were sent last.  At the
end.  They had to go up there too, and often waited here.  Five
at a time.  Fifty people -- sixty women with children.  They had
to wait here until there was room here.  Naked! In summer and
winter.

Lanzmann:  Winter in Treblinka can be very cold.

Suchomel:  Well, in winter, in December, anyway after Christmas.
But even before Christmas it was cold as hell.  Between fifteen
and minus four.  I know:  at first it was cold as hell for us
too.  We didn't have suitable uniforms.

Lanzmann:  But it was colder...

Suchomel:  ...for those poor people...

Lanzmann:  ...in the "funnel."

Suchomel:  In the "funnel" it was very, very cold.

Lanzmann:  Can you describe this "funnel" precisely?  What was it
like? How wide?  How was it for the people in this "funnel"?

Suchomel:  It was about thirteen feet wide, as wide as this room.
On each side were palisades this high...or this high.

Lanzmann:  Walls?

Suchomel:  No, barbed wire.  Woven into the barbed wire were
branches of pine trees.  You understand?  It was known as
"camouflage."  There was a Camouflage Squad of twenty Jews.  They
brought in new branches every day from the woods.  So everything
was screened.  People couldn't see anything to the left or right.
Nothing.  You couldn't see through it. Impossible.

Lanzmann:  Treblinka, where so many people were exterminated,
wasn't big, was it?

Suchomel:  It wasn't big.  Sixteen hundred feet at the widest
point.  It wasn't a rectangle, more like a rhomboid.  You must
realize that here the ground was flat, and here it began to rise.
And at the top of the slope was the gas chamber.  You had to
climb up to it.

Lanzmann:  The "funnel" was called the "Road to Heaven," wasn't
it?

Suchomel:  The Jews called it the "Ascension," also the "Last
Road."  I only heard those two names for it.

Lanzmann:  I need to see it.  The people go into the "funnel."
Then what happens?  They are totally naked?

Suchomel:  Totally naked.  Here stood two Ukrainian guards.
Mainly for the men.  If the men wouldn't go in, they were beaten
with whips.  The men were "driven" along.  Not the women.  They
weren't beaten.

Lanzmann:  Why such humanity?

Suchomel:  I didn't see it.  Maybe they were beaten too.

Lanzmann:  Why not?  They were about to die anyway.

Suchomel:  At the entrance to the gas chambers, undoubtedly.


pp. 118-120
-----------

Suchomel:  In the "funnel," the women had to wait.  They heard
the motors of the gas chambers.  Maybe they also heard people
screaming and imploring.  As they waited, "death panic"
overwhelmed them.  "Death panic" makes people let go.  They empty
themselves, from the front or the rear.  So often, where the
women stoof, there were five or six rows of excrement.

Lanzmann:  They stood?

Suchomel:  They could squat or do it standing.  I didn't see them
do it, I only saw the feces.

Lanzmann:  Only women?

Suchomel:  Not the men, only the women.  The men were chased
through the "funnel."  The women had to wait until a gas chamber
was empty.

Lanzmann:  And the men?

Suchomel:  No, they were whipped in first.  You understand?  They
always went first.

Lanzmann:  They didn't have to wait?

Suchomel:  They weren't given time to wait, no.

Lanzmann:  And this "death panic"?

Suchomel:  When this "death panic" sets in, one lets go.  It's
well known when someone's terrified, and knows he's about to die;
it can happen in bed.  My mother was kneedling by her bed...

Lanzmann:  Your mother?

Suchomel:  Yes.  Then there was a big pile.  That's a fact.  It's
been medically proved.

Since you wanted to know:  as soon as they were unloaded, if
they'd been loaded in Warsaw, or elsewhere, they'd already been
beaten.  Beaten hard, worse than in Treblinka, I can assure you.
Then during the train journey, standing in the cars, no toilets,
nothing, hardly any water -- fear.  Then the doors opened and it
started again,

"Bremze, bremze!"  "Czipsze, czipsze!"

I can't pronounce it, I have false teth.  It's Polish:  Bremze or
czipsze.

Lanzmann:  What does bremze mean?

Suchomel:  It's a Ukrainian word.  It means "faster."  Again the
chase. A hail of whiplashes.  The SS man Kuettner's whip was this
long.  Women to the left, men to the right.  And always more
blows.  No respite.  Go in there, strip.  Hurry, hurry!  Always
running.

Lanzmann:  Running and screaming.

Suchomel:  That's how they were finished off.

Lanzmann:  That was the technique?

Suchomel:  Yes, the technique.  You must remember, it had to go
fast. And the Blue Squad also had the task of leading the sick
and the aged to the "infirmary," so as not to delay the flow of
people to the gas chambers.  Old people would have slowed it
down.  Assignment to the "infirmary" was decided by Germans.  The
Jews of the Blue Squad only implemented the decision, leading the
people there, or carrying them on stretchers.  Old women, sick
children, children whose mother was sick, or whose grandmother
was very old, were sent along with the grandma, because she
didn't know about the "infirmary."  It had a white flag with a
red cross.  A passage led to it.  Until they reached the end,
they saw nothing.  Then they'd see the dead in the pit.  They
were forced to strip, to sit on a sandbank, and were killed with
a shot in the neck. They fell into the pit.  There was always a
fire in the pit.  With rubbish, paper and gasoline, people burn
very well.


pp. 146-147
-----------

Suchomel:  At that time, in say, January, February, March, hardly
any trains arrived.

Lanzmann:  Was Treblinka glum without the trains?

Suchomel:  I wouldn't say the Jews were glum.  They became so
then they realized...I'll come to that later;  it's a story in
itself.  The Jews, those in the work squads, thought at first
that they'd survive.  But in January, when they stopped receiving
food, for Wirth had decreed that there were too many of them...
There were a good five to six hundred of them in Camp 1.

Lanzmann:  Up there?

Suchomel:  Yes.  To keep them from rebelling, they weren't shot
or gassed, but starved.  Then an epidemic broke out, a kind of
typhus.  The Jews stopped believing they'd make it.  They were
left to die.  They dropped like flies.  It was all over.  They'd
stopped believing.  It was all very well to say...I...we kept on
insisting:  "You're going to live!"  We almost believed it
ourselves. If you lie enough, you believe your own lies.  Yes.
But they replied to me:  "No, chief, we're just reprieved
corpses."





Path: news.voyager.net!clmx35.dial.voyager.net!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:27:44 -0500
Organization: Voyager Information Networks, Inc.
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References: <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> Posted;  emailed;  please reply publicly.

I asked for public replies and got this.

# Received: from Vir.com (News.Vir.com [199.84.154.68]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with ESMTP id WAA06989 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:50:02 -0500 (EST)
# Received: from ipdyne14.vir.com [199.202.197.14] by Vir.com (8.7.1/v1.1) with SMTP       id WAA30733 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:47:36 -0500 (est)
# Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:47:36 -0500 (est)
# Message-Id: <199611120347.WAA30733@Vir.com>
# X-Sender: jfbe@vir.com
# X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
# Mime-Version: 1.0
# Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
# To: jamie@voyager.net
# X-UIDL: 847770616.000
# From: jfbe@vir.com (Jean-Francois Beaulieu)
# Subject: Suchomel and shoah
# Status: U
# 
# 
# >Oh, it isn't really Franz Suchomel on the tape.  I see.
# 
#  Actually, I don't think so.
# 
# >Please explain why the real Franz Suchomel has not denounced this
# >interview as a forgery and sued the hell out of the filmmakers.
# 
#   Suing in law Lanzmann????????
# 
#   How could he? If he was alive, hiw word had little credibility. In the movie
#  'Suchomel', or the man who took his identity, claimed: you wont give my name?
#  Obviously  in a state where the population wasn't less hysterical than the
# average nizkorian, he hadn't any chance to be taken seriously. Perhaps a
# journalist got an interview with him and asked: 'Was it you?'. An perhaps
# Suchomel said: no! Perhaps the journalist decided top drop his reply. The
# way the medias works,since revisionist view point are almnost never allowed,
# it wouldn't surprised me. Perhaps he reported such a claim and added: 'You
# see, dear reader? Suchomel was caught and now he try to deny!!
# 
#   Perhaps no journalist asked Suchomel his opinion. Suchomel spent 7 years
# in jail and wasn't interested, imagine, a cardiac, to sue in law lanzmann
# without any other argument than: I didn't give this interview! 'Oh ya Mr
# Suchomel? but you said yourself in the interview that you didn't want to be
# recognized!!!'
# YOU-ARE-A-LIAR! And than, a press campain, really, he hadn't anything in the
# hands. All your claim is based on the assumption that Germany was a normal state
# while it is not the case. And Lanzmann knew that. Perhaps Suchomel was dead
# once the movie was distributed also. In the shoes of Suchomel, I would say:
# I'll sue this bastard! But immediatelly someone around me would say: it is
# your word against the word of the medias, Lanzmann, the survivors, your
# heart is sick,
# you won't support the press campain against you, you have no chance, they
# will use this statement: 'you won't reveal my name!'. If Lanzmann hadn't
# used this artifice: 'you won't give my name?', a public protesting was
# possible, but not in this case: the gassing were a certanty for 99% of the
# population. Your argument is a nonsense.
# 
# >Posted;  emailed;  please reply publicly.
# 
#  I'll reply publically when your message will appear.
#  Actually, you DIDN'T try to explain the inconsistencies that I underlined.
# 
# 

I don't think this requires comment.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/





Path: news.voyager.net!clmx40.dial.voyager.net!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:24:44 -0500
Organization: Voyager Information Networks, Inc.
Lines: 85
Message-ID: 
References: <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net

> Posted;  emailed;  please reply publicly.

Again -- I asked for public replies and got this (which apparently is
going to be posted anyway...)

# Received: from Vir.com (News.Vir.com [199.84.154.68]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with ESMTP id TAA08087 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:51:05 -0500 (EST)
# Received: from ipdyne50.vir.com [199.202.197.50] by Vir.com (8.7.1/v1.1) with SMTP       id TAA02946 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:48:55 -0500 (est)
# Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:48:55 -0500 (est)
# Message-Id: <199611140048.TAA02946@Vir.com>
# X-Sender: jfbe@vir.com (Unverified)
# X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
# Mime-Version: 1.0
# Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
# To: jamie@voyager.net
# From: jfbe@vir.com (Jean-Francois Beaulieu)
# Subject: Lanzmann, kaputt!
# 
# Ok, I wont send the email of yesterday publically, since I found few more
# informations, but consider that this is my official reply:
# 
# a copy was sent in alt.revisionism:
# Recently I posted something on Suchomel and there was a couple of
#  arguments develloped in alt.revisionism.
#  One of the argument is that more than one camera may have been involved.
#  Another one is that the picture could have been taken from outside, through
#  a window. Another one, Annie Halpert, said that Suchomel asked to not reveal
#  his name but accepted to be filmed. Obviously the latest one is a
#  non-sense. However, there's an index of the N.Y Times at Concordia Univer-
#  sity and I was able to find a couple of articles printed in 1985.
#  The 20 october 1985, page H-17, Lanzmann explain how he filmed Suchomel:
#  he brough with him a woman, and she hide a camera in a bag. There was a
#  little hole in the bag. This is his version. It is thus impossible to
#  film from 3 different distances and get a closed picture of the map in
#  such a case. Obviously Lanzmann lied. Don't ask me why a man who invest
#  10 years of his life to make such a film with millions is enough stupid
#  to take 3 different views in such a way and give us the rope to hang
#  him: perhaps it is typical of the holocaust mythology. I'm not aware
#  that this important aspect has been in the last 11 years but anyway,
#  you'll have to live with it now.
# 
# 
#    Now, Jamie McCarthy remark: why did Suchomel never sue in law Lanzmann?
#  Well, the first explanation may be that he was dead in 1985, he's born in
#  1908. But perhaps he was alive. Now, what could he win in case of victory?
#  That someone dammaged his reputation? Lanzmann drived the 'interview'
#  in a such a way that Suchomel do not appear as a monster but as a not so
#  bad guy who hadn't any choice. Suchomel spent 7 years in jail and the
#  hagas chambers of Treblinka were supposed to be a fact. He certanly
#  confessed these one in court to not challendge the autorithy of the
#  tribunal, as we know, his only choice was to reject the blame on someone
#  else since people prior to him had 'shown' that the gas chambers were
#  a 'fact' , prior confessions or jewish witness.
# 
#    And now, we have to consider that Suchomel was cardiac, that his only
#  wish was to end his life quietly without being submitted to troubles.
#  If he had sue the millionaire Lanzmann, the last one would have claim:
#  Oh yeah? and you stated yourself that you didn't want to be recognize,
#  to bad that I filmed you. His word against Lanzmann word, with the
#  press against him, and 99% of the population who would have say: tsss
#  tsss, now that he was caught he try desesperatelly to lie! The picture
#  is bluerred, but with a rubber mask it certanly looks approximativelly
#  like Suchomel. As I said, there is frequent sketch on TV from people
#  who use such a plastic or rubber mask, and the imitations are quite
#  good, although they are not perfect. But here Lanzmann claim that he
#  took those pictures in Suchomel's appartment with a transmitter, and
#  that his team in the van received it, and that this is why the image
#  is of a so poor quality. This doesn't explain the picture of the map
#  from few inches, nor that the camera never shake, nor the 2 different
#  distances for Suchomel's face. So if Suchomel was still alive in 1985,
#  he hadn't any reason to prosecute Lanzmann. And the voice? who claim
#  that the voice is a perfect imitation? It is certanly not a perfect
#  one. But it is probably close to some extent. There's dozens of imita-
#  tors in Quebec, perhaps hundreds if we count amators. It's a profes-
#  sion, it's something that we can learn. If someone give me a quarter
#  million dolalrs to play a role and say: you'll have to spend 500
#  hours to learn how to imitate a voice, well, that's 500$ the hour.
# 
# 
# 

Again, I don't think any comment is necessary (except to point out that
Annie Alpert's argument has been quite distorted).
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: Annie Alpert 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:21:08 -0500
Organization: Freelance Soccer Mom
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>> # From: jfbe@vir.com (Jean-Francois Beaulieu)

> # Recently I posted something on Suchomel and there was a couple of
> #  arguments develloped in alt.revisionism.> #  One of the argument is that more than one camera may have been involved.> #  Another one is that the picture could have been taken from outside, through> #  a window. Another one, Annie Halpert, said that Suchomel asked to not reveal
> #  his name but accepted to be filmed. Obviously the latest one is a
> #  non-sense. 
> 
> Again, I don't think any comment is necessary (except to point out that
> Annie Alpert's argument has been quite distorted).

No kidding!  I said nothing of the sort.  J-F, I realize your English is
limited, but this time you went too far. 
> -- 
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/

And be sure to check out:
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad





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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: 14 Nov 1996 13:28:07 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <56f6p7$f22@Vir.com>
References: <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com> <3287a6c3.9663559@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>
> In <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
> 
> [a rather stupid argument that the Suchomel interviewed in Lanzmann's
> documentary was not the real Suchomel]
> 
> Golly, you have become awfully predictable. If you don't like a
> document, it is a forgery. If you don't like a witness, he is lying or
> was tortured. Now we can add to your list of predictable responses
> that, if you don't like an interview, the person being interviewed was
> an actor.

 And if you don't like an interview given by a crematory operator, you
 tampered it and you invent a fictive canadian law?





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From: John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:28:47 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
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In <56f6p7$f22@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:

>> In <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>> [a rather stupid argument that the Suchomel interviewed in Lanzmann's
>> documentary was not the real Suchomel]

>> Golly, you have become awfully predictable. If you don't like a
>> document, it is a forgery. If you don't like a witness, he is lying
or
>> was tortured. Now we can add to your list of predictable responses
>> that, if you don't like an interview, the person being interviewed
was
>> an actor.

> And if you don't like an interview given by a crematory operator, you
> tampered it and you invent a fictive canadian law?

Sorry, but your lame insinuation that I lied about something does not
erase the fact that you have invented a complete fantasy about
Lanzmann using an actor to portray Suchomel in order to prove that the
Holocaust happened. Most people would have been embarrased to say such
a stupid thing. But not you. You are so desperate to find a reason to
doubt the historicity of the Holocaust that you have to invent such
fantasies all the time.

--
 John Morris                                
 at University of Alberta  
-- 
The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lanzmann, not dead yet
Date: 15 Nov 1996 02:45:27 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <56dp5d$4o7@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu   wrote:
>
>  Recently I posted something on Suchomel and there was a couple of
> arguments develloped in alt.revisionism.
> One of the argument is that more than one camera may have been involved.
> Another one is that the picture could have been taken from outside, through
> a window. Another one, Annie Halpert, said that Suchomel asked to not reveal
> his name but accepted to be filmed. Obviously the latest one is a
> non-sense. However, there's an index of the N.Y Times at Concordia
> University and I was able to find a couple of articles printed in 1985.
> The 20 october 1985, page H-17, Lanzmann explain how he filmed Suchomel:
> he brough with him a woman, and she hide a camera in a bag. There was a
> little hole in the bag. This is his version. It is thus impossible to
> film from 3 different distances and get a closed picture of the map in
> such a case.

    Impossible?  I suggest there are some things you have not considered.

    Ever hear of a zoom lens?

    Ever hear of editing?

    Ever hear of enlargement?

    I think you spoke of a close-up of Suchomel with the map, yes? 
Another way this can be done even without a zoom is if the woman just
stands up and goes close to the map (as if she is also looking closely). 
Suchomel is looking at the map, she can move the bag pretty freely. 

    A close-up of the map without Suchomel could easily be obtained if
Suchomel left the room for a minute to go to the bathroom sometime during
the interview.  Or if Lanzmann himself brought the map to help with the
interview, it could be filmed later and edited into the sequence to allow
the viewer to know what Suchomel was talking about.  I think this kind of
thing is not all that rare.  I will ask a friend of mine who works on
documentary films.


> Obviously Lanzmann lied.  Don't ask me why a man who invest
> 10 years of his life to make such a film with millions is enough stupid
> to take 3 different views in such a way and give us the rope to hang
> him: perhaps it is typical of the holocaust mythology. I'm not aware
> that this important aspect has been in the last 11 years but anyway,
> you'll have to live with it now.


[...]

> tsss, now that he was caught he try desesperatelly to lie! The picture
> is bluerred, but with a rubber mask it certanly looks approximativelly
> like Suchomel. As I said, there is frequent sketch on TV from people
> who use such a plastic or rubber mask, and the imitations are quite
> good, although they are not perfect.

    Well, fine, produce the rubber mask.  Or if "he could have done it" is
good enough to call Lanzmann a fraud, then "they could have done it" is
good enough evidence to prove Nazi gas chambers.


> But here Lanzmann claim that he
> took those pictures in Suchomel's appartment with a transmitter, and
> that his team in the van received it, and that this is why the image
> is of a so poor quality. This doesn't explain the picture of the map
> from few inches,

    I have offered a couple of possibilities.  There may be more - it's
been a long time since I've seen the film.


> nor that the camera never shake,

    Put the bag down on a chair or table, of course it will not shake.

> nor the 2 different
> distances for Suchomel's face.

    Zoom lens.

    Enlarging the picture.  If the closer distance seems blurrier than the
farther one, this is probably how it was done.

    Shooting from two different places.

    Remember, you don't know how long the interview went on.  I saw
"Shoah"  years ago, but I seem to remember vaguely that there were at
least two separate times that Lanzmann entered the house.  Lanzmann may
have rearranged the order of questions in editing the film. 

    If they spent (for example) the morning shooting from one chair, ate
lunch, then came back in and shot from a different chair for the
afternoon, Lanzmann could take afternoon question-and-answer snips and put
them in between morning question-and-answer snips.  This would make it
look as if the camera was moving between two points during the interview.
As long as the answers are kept with the same questions, this kind of
rearrangement would not distort the meaning.  Lanzmann might have done
this to make it less monotonous in appearance. 

[...]


> And the voice? who claim
> that the voice is a perfect imitation? It is certanly not a perfect
> one.

    So you say this is an actor playing Suchomel?  And you know the
imitation is not perfect?  You have, then, a sample of the real Suchomel's
voice which you have compared with the Lanzmann film?

    As far as I can tell, the sum total of your evidence for any of this
is: "It _could_ have been faked that way." 

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.





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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lanzmann, kaputt!
Date: 16 Nov 1996 16:58:43 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 43
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>
> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
> 
> > The 20 october 1985, page H-17, Lanzmann explain how he filmed Suchomel:
> > he brough with him a woman, and she hide a camera in a bag. There was a
> > little hole in the bag. This is his version. It is thus impossible to
> > film from 3 different distances and get a closed picture of the map in
> > such a case. 
> 
> Why? A picture of a map could obviously be inserted afterwards. A woman is
> capable of moving herself. What is "impossible"?
> 
> >Obviously Lanzmann lied.
> 
> Obviously to whom?


  Obviously to anyone honnest who whatched the first minutes of the interview
  recently and ask himself: how could the camera be really hidden ?
  I wont discuss with someone who didn't see again the video in the.
  previous week. See my post to Miloslav Bilik.


> 
> > If he had sue the millionaire Lanzmann, the last one would have claim:
> > Oh yeah? and you stated yourself that you didn't want to be recognize,
> > to bad that I filmed you. 
> 
> Excuse me, but who said Lanzmann was a millionaire? In what currency?
>

  It's a minor element, but I don't believe that someone who produce
  a movie that is wordly aclaimed can be poor. If he was before, if,
 he certanly wasn't after. That's my guess, althought it doesn't make
 a big difference.
 
 
> Your pathetic wriggling certainly justifies the previous posts about
> your attitude.





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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: 17 Nov 1996 19:41:42 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 77
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References: <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>  
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
> In article ,
> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> > Posted;  emailed;  please reply publicly.
> 
> I asked for public replies and got this.
> 
> # Received: from Vir.com (News.Vir.com [199.84.154.68]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.0/CICNet) with ESMTP id WAA06989 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:50:02 -0500 (EST)
> # Received: from ipdyne14.vir.com [199.202.197.14] by Vir.com (8.7.1/v1.1) with SMTP       id WAA30733 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:47:36 -0500 (est)
> # Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:47:36 -0500 (est)
> # Message-Id: <199611120347.WAA30733@Vir.com>
> # X-Sender: jfbe@vir.com
> # X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
> # Mime-Version: 1.0
> # Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> # To: jamie@voyager.net
> # X-UIDL: 847770616.000
> # From: jfbe@vir.com (Jean-Francois Beaulieu)
> # Subject: Suchomel and shoah
> # Status: U
> # 
> # 
> # >Oh, it isn't really Franz Suchomel on the tape.  I see.
> # 
> #  Actually, I don't think so.
> # 
> # >Please explain why the real Franz Suchomel has not denounced this
> # >interview as a forgery and sued the hell out of the filmmakers.
> # 
> #   Suing in law Lanzmann????????
> # 
> #   How could he? If he was alive, hiw word had little credibility. In the movie
> #  'Suchomel', or the man who took his identity, claimed: you wont give my name?
> #  Obviously  in a state where the population wasn't less hysterical than the
> # average nizkorian, he hadn't any chance to be taken seriously. Perhaps a
> # journalist got an interview with him and asked: 'Was it you?'. An perhaps
> # Suchomel said: no! Perhaps the journalist decided top drop his reply. The
> # way the medias works,since revisionist view point are almnost never allowed,
> # it wouldn't surprised me. Perhaps he reported such a claim and added: 'You
> # see, dear reader? Suchomel was caught and now he try to deny!!
> # 
> #   Perhaps no journalist asked Suchomel his opinion. Suchomel spent 7 years
> # in jail and wasn't interested, imagine, a cardiac, to sue in law lanzmann
> # without any other argument than: I didn't give this interview! 'Oh ya Mr
> # Suchomel? but you said yourself in the interview that you didn't want to be
> # recognized!!!'
> # YOU-ARE-A-LIAR! And than, a press campain, really, he hadn't anything in the
> # hands. All your claim is based on the assumption that Germany was a normal state
> # while it is not the case. And Lanzmann knew that. Perhaps Suchomel was dead
> # once the movie was distributed also. In the shoes of Suchomel, I would say:
> # I'll sue this bastard! But immediatelly someone around me would say: it is
> # your word against the word of the medias, Lanzmann, the survivors, your
> # heart is sick,
> # you won't support the press campain against you, you have no chance, they
> # will use this statement: 'you won't reveal my name!'. If Lanzmann hadn't
> # used this artifice: 'you won't give my name?', a public protesting was
> # possible, but not in this case: the gassing were a certanty for 99% of the
> # population. Your argument is a nonsense.
> # 
> # >Posted;  emailed;  please reply publicly.
> # 
> #  I'll reply publically when your message will appear.
> #  Actually, you DIDN'T try to explain the inconsistencies that I underlined.
> # 
> # 
> 
> I don't think this requires comment.
> -- 
>  Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>  jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/


  My guess it that this gesture smell frustration, but.... could anyone
 explain me which part is so much shocking? I've the impression that
  you're playing comedy here.





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From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:58:50 -0500
Organization: Voyager Information Networks, Inc.
Lines: 21
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References: <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>   <56nppm$b9c@Vir.com>
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>   My guess it that this gesture smell frustration, but.... could anyone
>  explain me which part is so much shocking? I've the impression that
>   you're playing comedy here.

It's not shocking;  it's typical of Holocaust-denial.

The thesis of denial, rarely spoken, is that everything is a forgery,
it's all a fraud, a hoax -- that the Jews and their lackeys have faked
everything throughout history in a massive yet totally undetected scam.

One example is Udo Walendy's claim that nearly every photograph taken
of a Nazi or a Jew from 1930 to 1945 is a forgery.

This ridiculous claim of yours is just another example.

Posted;  emailed;  please reply publicly.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 05:50:28 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
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In <56nppm$b9c@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

[Deluded attempt to argue that Claude Lanzmann used an actor in place
of death camp guard Suchomel in an interview]

 
>> I don't think this requires comment.
 
>>  Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>>  jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/


>  My guess it that this gesture smell frustration, but.... could anyone
> explain me which part is so much shocking? I've the impression that
>  you're playing comedy here.

Jamie has already pointed out what has been my argument from the
beginning of your attempt to argue that Lanzmann used an actor instead
of the real Suchomel: at its base Holocaust denial is predicated on
arguing that all documents are forgeries, all witness are liars, all
confessions obtained by torture. Apparently your argument *does*
require a comment because you do not understand what it is that you
are trying to argue.

I would have thought there were delusions which even you were not
capable of, but apparently I have been wrong. It is quite insane to
suppose that forty years after the fact Lanzmann would interview a
fake Suchomel while the real Suchomel was very much alive. I suspect
that all your arguments about camera angles and such are mere
rationalizations, a matter of seeing what you need to see in order to
convince yourself that the Holocaust never happened. Until you realize
that you make the evidence fit what you want to believe, you will say
crazier and crazier things.

Let's take a simple example from your "Auschwitz: A Revisionist FAQ."
Obviously, you have read the summary of the Lagace testimony from the
Zuendelsite and have been able to compare it to Pressac's first book.
Yet you overlook Lagace's statement that his retort starts off at
roughly the same temperature as the Topf retorts at Auschwitz and gets
hotter as the body burns. At the same time, you assume that the start
up temperature  in a Topf crematory remained constant and did not get
hotter as heat was released from the burning bodies even though the
Topf instruction manual published by Pressac instructs the operator to
control the temperature by increasing the flow of the draft just as
Lagace's instructions tell him. As Lagace said, the crematories are
remarkably alike. Both use a forced draft system, and they had, if you
do the F to C conversions, nearly identical operating temperatures
from startup to maximum.

There is much that you conveniently overlooked in your comparison of
the two systems, and I submit that you need to overlook evidence as
much as you need to see things which are not there, as in the Lanzmann
documentary. It is the same mentality as was shown by the person who
cut some dozen or so pages out of the McGill University Library copy
of Pressac's "Technique": if that person could no longer see the
evidence, it ceased to exist, and his prejudices were safe.

In summary, I think you are long overdue for an assessment of your
*motives* for denying the Holocaust. It is high time you stepped back
and took the whole question seriously instead of inventing
rationalizations for your positions out of thin air.

Posted and courtesy copy e-mailed: please reply publicly.

--
 John Morris                                
 at University of Alberta  
-- 
The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:47:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
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>In <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>
>[a rather stupid argument that the Suchomel interviewed in Lanzmann's
>documentary was not the real Suchomel]
>
>Golly, you have become awfully predictable. If you don't like a
>document, it is a forgery. If you don't like a witness, he is lying or
>was tortured. Now we can add to your list of predictable responses
>that, if you don't like an interview, the person being interviewed was
>an actor.
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     

        Notes: Mr.Morris makes absolutely no attempt at responding
directly to Mr.Beaulieu's points. The only thing he does is to reply
like a little boy. 

        The record shows, Mr.Beaulieu posing some observations, raising
some points, making statements of analysis, explicitly identifying
particular parts of the film, and drawing some conclusions.

        The record shows, Mr.Morris making totalitarian claims about
Mr.Beaulieu's posting practices. 

        I find it amusing that later on in this thread, Mr.Morris'
responding to the "Leprechan" states: "Given that your reply is
unresponsive to the issue under discussion, I can only assume that you
mean simply to disrupt the conversation. Just remember, you have
disrupted the discussion for everybody."

        
         

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