From stryker@serv.net Wed Sep  4 08:03:29 PDT 1996
Article: 62061 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:  1 & 2-Auschwitz, a secret? (Repost)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 19:49:30 +0000
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There are numerous omissions and half-truths in this posting, but I'll 
only point out a couple of the most egregious.

Mr. Beaulieu writes:

>But often, messages were simply transmitted with the liberation of >inmates (Laqueur, 'The Terrible Secret', page 169 and Garlinsi [sic], >'Fighting Auschwitz', pages 54-5 & 112).

Cf. Josef Garlinski in _Fighting Auschwitz_ (Fawcett Publications, 
1975), p. 80: 'In this preliminary period, when the underground was 
taking its first steps almost in the dark, sending reports via 
released prisoners was found to be the most practical method.  
Releases were very rare, but they did happen from time to time.  It 
all depended on whether the released man was already a member of the 
secret camp organization.  The risk of sending anything by someone who 
was not completely trustworthy was unacceptable for the underground 
and for Warsaw, as both sides would have had to reveal their secret 
contact.'

Mr. Beaulieu also writes:
>Communications between Poland and London were relatively easy for the >Resistance.

He neglects to note what Garlinski states about the time lag involved 
in such communications.  Garlinski says about the first report from 
Auschwitz: 'Pilecki's first report, transmitted to Warsaw orally in 
November 1940 by means of a released prisoner, was immediately made 
use of.  The contents were included in the secret mail, sent by 
courier from the Commandant of the ZWZ, which arrived in London via 
Stockholm in March 1941.'  (Garlinski, p. 79).

Mr. Beaulieu also writes:
>What is astonishing here is that over 2 years and a half, the >systematic murder of hundreds of thousands of jews seems to be >ignored while the polish resistance is suppose to be aware of a >single gasing of russian pows at a time. [deletion]  Before the mid >1944, the atrocities were generally not concerning Auschwitz and when >it was th case, the mass gasing of jews was not mention.

Mr. Beaulieu tends to confuse what is _reported_ with what is 
_publicized_.  He fails to note that the first report on Auschwitz 
that provided details of the gassings there was a two-part report 
written on 10 and 12 August 1943.  This, the first detailed report to 
reach the West, was received by the Office of Strategic Services in 
London in April 1944.  It was based on information gathered by the 
Polish underground in Auschwitz, and contained information about the 
number of inmates at Auschwitz; the number of Jews gassed up to 
September 1942; the number of Romany who had been gassed; and the 
numbers of Jews arriving from various countries between September 1942 
and June 1943.  The report added that of these, only two percent were 
still alive.  The report also contained descriptions of the gassing 
procedure and of the crematoria as well as of the medical 
experimentation being conducted on inmates.   Also included was 
information about the conditions in the camp and names of some key 
figures in the Nazi staff.

The Polish source had requested that the information in the report be 
given publicity; the OSS did not do this.

For more details, see Raul Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European 
Jews_ (abridged edition, NY, 1985), pp. 321-22; see also David S. 
Wyman, _The Abandonment of the Jews_ (NY, 1984), p. 314.  The report 
itself, Wyman notes, is held by the National Archives: Description of 
Conc Camp at Oswiecim, 8/43, u/c Belin to Langer, 4/10/44, RG 226, R & 
A 66059.

Laurinda Stryker
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Wed Sep  4 16:49:43 PDT 1996
Article: 62353 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:34:50 +0000
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Matt Giwer wrote:

[snip]

>         I had to break the truth to you slowly.
> 
>         Anyone who identifies with anything that is without rational
> foundation is an idiot.
> 
[snip]

Hey!  Now he's even insulting himself!

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Wed Sep  4 21:10:17 PDT 1996
Article: 62433 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1-Auschwitz, a secret? (repost)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:32:56 +0000
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Mike Curtis wrote:
> 
> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

> I see, now it is a transmitter/receiver. This sounds like a different
> radio. Where was this one located?
> 
> >       Right at the time when the supposed gassing was being done at
> >Auschwitz.  Quite a good system of secret keeping.
> >
> 
> Giwer, I see no discussion of who had the radio or how it was used.

>From  Jozef Garlinski, _Fighting Auschwitz_ (Fawcett, 1975), pp. 
133-34:

	'There, in the cellar [of Block No. 20], underground electricians set 
up a transmitting station.  It was an excellent place, for typhus was 
rife in the camp and the SS-men were very unwilling to enter the 
infected area: Block No. 20 was specially set aside for infectious 
ilness.  Through contacts, established earlier for sending reports and 
secret correspondence, the Silesia District of the Home Army was 
informed of the wavelengths on which they would broadcast.  Reception 
was organized as near as possible to the camp.  For seven months, 
Stössel tranmitted from the secret radio-station.  Transmissions were 
infrequent, at various times; the bulletins concerned new transports, 
the death rate in the camp and general living conditions.  
Unfortunately no details concerning reception have been preserved; 
none of the people near the camp, who organized the monitoring of the 
secret station and forwarded the news, survived the war.
	'The SS-men soon got to know that the transmitter was working and 
looked for it furiously.  They pulled up floors in the workshops and 
stores, tapped the walls, questioned informers.  It was a painful time 
for the whole SS garrison, as it undermined their prestige and made 
fools of them in the eyes of the prisoners.  The search for the 
transmitter was carried on outside the camp as well, in areas 
adjoining it.  The SS-men never found it, but in the autumn of 1942 it 
was thought necessary to dismantle the set and stop transmitting.  Too 
many prisoners knew about it and not all would be able to keep silent.
	'Some informants state that the organization had a second crystal set 
at this time, but Pilecki's report does not confirm this.'

Two notes.  First, the content of the transmissions is not 
discoverable.  It is nonsense, then, to assert that the transmissions 
did not contain information about gassings.  No one knows either way.

Second, the transmitter was in operation for seven months, ending in 
autumn 1942.  The mass extermination of the Jews in Auschwitz began in 
the summer of 1942; the crematoria at Birkenau, however, were not 
completed until 1943.  See Nora Levin, _The Holocaust_ (Schocken, 
1973), pp. 315-16; Raul Hilbert, _The Destruction of the European 
Jews_ (abridged edition, Holmes & Meier, 1985), p. 233.

Laurinda Stryker
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Wed Sep  4 21:10:18 PDT 1996
Article: 62434 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gas-tight doors
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:09:59 +0000
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:12:15 GMT, amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M.
> McLellan) wrote:
> 
[snip]
> 
>         It is uneductated fools like you that bother me.  Not regarding the
> holocaust but the economic future of America. 

[snip]

Uh--notice anything about Mr. McLellan's e-mail address?  No?  Hint: 
look at the last two letters.

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Thu Sep  5 07:28:35 PDT 1996
Article: 62505 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Belsen to Keren, over.
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:13:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service
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In article <322C5F15.5FEF@serv.net> <50jert$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com>,
    rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> >   Laurinda Stryker  writes:
> >  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

> >  >Deaths were
> >  > due to typhus, tuberculosis, malnutrition, dysentery and other causes. And
> >  > I suppose Kramer is responsible for all that too?
> >  
> >  Responsible for the widesrpead typhus, tuberculosis, malnutrition, 
> >  dysentery, and other causes?  Yep.
> >  
> >  Laurinda Stryker
> >  
> >>>>
> Well, at least we know who is responsible for your vacuous statements.

The widespread typhus, t.b., and dysentery were primarily due to malnutrition
and appalling living conditions.  These were direct results of Nazi policies.

Laurinda Stryker
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From stryker@serv.net Thu Sep  5 18:22:33 PDT 1996
Article: 62750 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!usenet
From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:30:56 +0000
Organization: ServNet Internet Services
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Matt Giwer wrote:

[snip]

>         Yes.  It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather"
> that women and children are to be killed in such cultures.  Are you
> really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world?  Are you
> really that stupid?

To which cultures does your phrase 'such cultures' refer?  The 
convention of noncombatant immunity is not a recent development in 
Western thought.

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Fri Sep  6 07:23:13 PDT 1996
Article: 62844 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A minor question
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:45:30 +0000
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:51:02 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
> ># Why is that didn't discover anything peculiar about
> ># Auschwitz until after the end of the war?
> 
> >Indeed, a minor question from a very minor person, and a lie,
> >too; certainly, it was known before the end of the war what
> >was happening in Auschwitz.
> 
>         From Soviet liberators only.  
[snip]

Mr. Giwer: In response to my request for sources re: your assertions 
about Terezin, you replied, 'Read the frigging NG for further 
details.'  I suggest you heed your own advice; were you to do so, 
you'd realize that this is indeed a lie.

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Sat Sep  7 09:22:56 PDT 1996
Article: 63073 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1 & 2 Auschwitz, a secret?  (Repost)
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:53:57 +0000
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> Laurinda Stryker  wrote:
> 
> >There are numerous omissions and half-truths in this posting, but I'll
> >only point out a couple of the most egregious.
> 
>   We'll see....

[snip]

>  Releases were rare in the preliminary period (do you refer here to 1941??),
>  but there was 952 in the first 6 months of 1942 and 36 and the other 6
>  months, 

Please give the source for your figures.

not all from Birkenau but since there was communications between
>  both camps, only a couple was suffisant. 

Sufficient for what?  See below.

You forget an essential part,
>  the emettor receiver which was in activity the fall of 1942. 

According to Garlinski - who, let it be noted, is a choice of your own 
choosing, transmissions _ended_ in the autumn of 1942 (Garlinski, 
_Fighting Auschwitz_, p. 133).  Also, see my posting in response to 
that of Mr. Curtis re: what is or is not known about the content of 
the transmissions.  Your point?

Finally,
>  there was _no need_ to find someone trustable about the gassing story,
>  simply because such precautions had to be taken for other kind of material.
>  An inmate of Auschwitz 1 or Birkenau who was released or who escaped
>  (hundreds for 1942-43) couldn't have shut up because the resistance in the
>  camp didn't provide him documents.

Again, Mr. Beaulieu, you fail to make a crucial distinction.  Yes, 
someone released from Auschwitz-Birkenau may well have told others of 
what they had seen there (though let it be noted that at least some of  
the people who were released report having had to sign non-disclosure 
statements); such personal communications, however, must be 
distinguished from communications which would have been relayed by 
members of the Polish resistance.  For the Allies to have received 
information, a communications link - i.e. a contact in the Polish 
resistance - was necessary.  You were, after all, not writing about 
what was known _in Poland_.

> >Mr. Beaulieu also writes:
> >>Communications between Poland and London were relatively easy for the >Resistance.
> 
> >He neglects to note what Garlinski states about the time lag involved
> >in such communications.  Garlinski says about the first report from
> >Auschwitz: 'Pilecki's first report, transmitted to Warsaw orally in
> >November 1940 by means of a released prisoner, was immediately made
> >use of.  The contents were included in the secret mail, sent by
> >courier from the Commandant of the ZWZ, which arrived in London via
> >Stockholm in March 1941.'  (Garlinski, p. 79).
> 
>   4 months for a letter wasn't and exception. But as I said, there was about
>   300 radio messages which were sent at speed light to London every month
>   by the A.K. It is the long messages containing important informations
>   which were bring that way, because they feared an interception. 
>The German
>   were able to listen those communications. It is true that the letters took
>   weeks before to reach London, but not necessarelly as much as 4 months.

Not necessarily, perhaps - I don't have information about the routing 
procedures for such communications; nor, I must add, have you supplied 
any such referenced information.  Nevertheless, you just wrote that '4  
months for a letter wasn't and [sic] exception.'  Your words.

> 
> >Mr. Beaulieu also writes:
> >>What is astonishing here is that over 2 years and a half, the >systematic murder of hundreds of thousands of jews seems to be >ignored while the polish resis
> >t e mid >1944, the atrocities were generally not concerning Auschwitz and when >it was th case, the mass gasing of jews was not mention.
> 
> > Mr. Beaulieu tends to confuse what is _reported_ with what is
> > _publicized_. 

This again must be emphasized.  The murder of the Jews by gas at 
Auschwitz _was_ reported by the Polish resistance in 1943, although 
logistics meant that the report was not received until 1944; the 
Auschwitz-Birkenau information was not, however, publicized in the 
West until the Vrba-Wetzler report.
  
>>He fails to note that the first report on Auschwitz

[snip]

> >that provided details of the gassings there was a two-part report
> >written on 10 and 12 August 1943.  This, the first detailed report to
> >reach the West, was received by the Office of Strategic Services in
> >London in April 1944.

[snip]

>  6 months to reach London???????? impossible. 

Why 'impossible'?  Especially in light of the fact that you've already 
stated '4 months for a letter wasn't and [sic] exception'.  Please 
give references re: the communications network between the underground 
and London.

>I'll check your reference
>  later and comment, but a date like august 1943 leaves a year and a half
>  or close to it. 

[snip]

'[A] year and a half or close to it' _for what_?  Again, distinctions 
must be made between a) reports being compiled in Poland; b) reports 
being received by the Allies; and c) newspapers publicizing the 
information.

Laurinda Stryker
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Sat Sep  7 09:22:57 PDT 1996
Article: 63093 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A minor question
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 20:57:02 +0000
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:45:30 +0000, Laurinda Stryker
>  wrote:

[snip]

> >Mr. Giwer: In response to my request for sources re: your assertions
> >about Terezin, you replied, 'Read the frigging NG for further
> >details.'  I suggest you heed your own advice; were you to do so,
> >you'd realize that this is indeed a lie.
> 
>         Ever since the holohuggers introduced the rule of "read it in
> DejaNews" the revionists have adopted the same rule.
> 
>         Follow it, or read for a few months until you are qualified to
> participate.

Mr. Giwer: Again, you miss the point of my post. And by the way, I am 
well acquainted with Deja News, and thus know perfectly well that the 
references re: Terezin were not posted - nor have they been since my 
request.

[snip]

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Sat Sep  7 09:22:58 PDT 1996
Article: 63152 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 21:51:22 +0000
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Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
> # Because there has never been any physical evidence
> # presented that there was any mass gassing at Auschwitz.
> 
> By that logic, there has never been any physical evidence
> presented that WW2 took place.
> 
> If you have such evidence, present it.
> 
> I will easily demonstrate that, using your type of
> "arguments", WW2 never took place.

Oh dear, oh dear. In two weeks time, I'm supposed to teach an 
undergraduate course on the Second World War - and now I realise that 
I can't be sure it really happened!  (You are, of course, right: by 
Mr. Giwer's criteria, there is no proof.)  Wait till I tell my head of 
department!

And I'm also supposed to teach a course on the Enlightenment.  But how 
do I know that Montesquieu ever existed, let alone wrote _The Spirit 
of the Laws_?  I don't have any physical evidence, after all.

I guess my only hope is that that the students lack Mr. Giwer's 
acumen.

(BTW, is there a typographical sign for sarcasm?)

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Sat Sep  7 18:06:43 PDT 1996
Article: 63298 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1-Auschwitz, a secret? (repost)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 20:48:40 +0000
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
> >

[snip]

> >You just go on and on, don't you Mr. Beaulieu?  Could you provide a source for
> >the statement that the Germans did not try to keep the Final Solution secret?

Thanks, Gord, but I doubt his reply to you will be any more cogent 
than his reply to me.  Still, I guess it's worth a try....
> 
>   Because Auschwitz was transparent, 

Meaning what?

>it is ludicrous to say that this was an
>   ideal place for mass killing. But indeed, they didn't try to keep secret
>   the final solution, 

Again - references????

>they announce everywhere their program of deportation
>   toward eastern ghettos.

'Resettlement in the East' was the phrase: but how does this professed 
policy equate, prima facie, the 'Final Solution' (i.e. genocide)?  
Deportation is not the same as mass murder.
> 
[snip]

Laurinda Stryker
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:04 PDT 1996
Article: 63432 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 01:31:42 +0000
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tom moran wrote:
> 
>         In the Holocaust book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" we
> are given a photo with the caption: "Arrival and selection of
> Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, 1944. Credit: Yad Vashim, Jeruselem".
>         The word "selection" is Holocaust vernacular is always used to
> designate those who are selected to go to the gas chamber.

[snip]

>         We are to assume from the "selection" word that either all the
> women are to go off to the gas chamber but not the men, or vice versa,
> when in fact the camp was segregated into mens camp and womens camp.

Why are we to 'assume' this, Mr. Moran?  Testimony consistently states 
that those arriving at Auschwitz were first divided by sex and then 
selected for labour or the gas.

[snip]
> 
>         Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
> the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
> right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
> another 60 or 70 feet away.

[snip]

Again, this is completely consistent with testimony.  See, for 
example, Sara Nomberg-Przytyk, _Auschwitz: True Tales from a Grotesque 
Land_, ed. Eli Pfefferkorn and David H. Hirsch (Chapel Hill: 
University of North Carolina Press, 1985).

Laurinda Stryker 
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:04 PDT 1996
Article: 63433 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 01:32:54 +0000
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tom moran wrote:
> 
>         In the Holocaust book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" we
> are given a photo with the caption: "Arrival and selection of
> Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, 1944. Credit: Yad Vashim, Jeruselem".
>         The word "selection" is Holocaust vernacular is always used to
> designate those who are selected to go to the gas chamber.

[snip]

>         We are to assume from the "selection" word that either all the
> women are to go off to the gas chamber but not the men, or vice versa,
> when in fact the camp was segregated into mens camp and womens camp.

Why are we to 'assume' this, Mr. Moran?  Testimony consistently states 
that those arriving at Auschwitz were first divided by sex and then 
selected for labour or the gas.

[snip]
> 
>         Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
> the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
> right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
> another 60 or 70 feet away.

[snip]

Again, this is completely consistent with testimony.  See, for 
example, Sara Nomberg-Przytyk, _Auschwitz: True Tales from a Grotesque 
Land_, ed. Eli Pfefferkorn and David H. Hirsch (Chapel Hill: 
University of North Carolina Press, 1985).

Laurinda Stryker 
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:05 PDT 1996
Article: 63436 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 01:20:41 +0000
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:42355 alt.revisionism:63436

Ourobouros wrote:

[snip]

>Would you care to restate the
> header of the Nizkor home-page, something "Dedicated to the 12 million..."

The header, as you must know, reads, 'Dedicated to the nearly twelve 
million victims ruthlessly destroyed by Adolf Hitler and his Nazi 
regime'.  As I'd think you also must know, 'victim' is not the same as 
'camp inmate'.  Much of the killing occurred outside of the camps.

You _are_ being disingenous, aren't you?

[snip]

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:06 PDT 1996
Article: 63439 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The footnote heard from
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 02:24:49 +0000
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> The Cry of a Deportee
> 
> A 1940 Gaullist veteran of the Free French Forces (FFL), I was
> arrested in October, 1943,
> and deported for 18 months to Buchenwald, then to the hell of Dora,
> where thousands of
> French deportees lost their lives in the underground factories of V1
> and V2. I returned
> disabled.

[snip]
> 
> Let them know, too, that in France, there were about 250,000
> deportees, of which about
> 25,000 were French Jews. Between 80,000 and 100,000 returned, of which
> about 15,000
> were Jews.

Estimates of Jewish losses for France, from Nora Levin, _The 
Holocaust_ (New York: Schocken, 1973):
	
	Estimates by Gerald Reitlinger, _The Final Solution_, 1953: 
		Low: 60,000     High: 65,000

	Losses Estimated by Raul Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European 
		Jews_, 1961: 70,000

>From  the 'Statistical Recapitulation of Jewish Deaths by Country', 
Raul Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European Jews_ (abridged 
edition, New York: Holmes and Meier, 1985): 75,000

> 
> Nobody speaks about the non-Jewish deportees. Why? 

Nobody?  From the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum website's 
'Five Questions About the Holocaust' 
(http://www.ushmm.org/misc-bin/add_goback/education/5quest.html):

'1. What was the Holocaust?

'The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and 
annihilation of European Jewry
by the Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. In 
1933 approximately nine
million Jews lived in the 21 countries of Europe that would be occ 
upied by Germany during World
War II. By 1945 two out of every three European Jews had been killed. 
Jews were the primary
victims -- six million were murdered; Roma (Gypsies), the handicapped 
and Poles were also
targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic or national 
reasons. Millions more,
including Soviet prisoners of war, political dissidents, homosexuals 
and Jehovah's Witnesses
suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny.

[...]

'3. Why did the Nazis want to kill large numbers of innocent people?

'The Nazis believed that Germans were "racially superior" and that 
there was a struggle for survival
between them and "inferior races." Jews, Roma (Gypsies) and the 
handicapped were seen as a
serious biological threat to the purity of the "German (Aryan) Race" 
and therefore had to be
"exterminated." The Nazis blamed the Jews for Germany's defeat in 
World War I, for its economic
problems and for the spread of Communist parties throughout Europe. 
Slavic peoples (Poles,
Russians and others) were also consi dered "inferior" and destined to 
serve as slave labor for their
German masters. Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, 
homosexuals and Free Masons
were persecuted, imprisoned and often killed on political and 
behavioral (rather than racial) grounds
. Sometimes the distinction was not very clear. Millions of Soviet 
Prisoners of War perished from
starvation, disease and forced labor or were killed for racial 
political reasons.'

[end quote]

>There is a lot of
> talk about Shoah,
> but nothing about the underground factories of V1 and V2 in Dora,
> where thousands of
> French deportees died of exhaustion and bad treatment. Dora, too, was
> a camp of
> extermination, by work and by hunger.

See 
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/buchenwald/press/reuters-040395.html

[snip]

> There is no talk about this, either. So why talk only about Jews'
> sacrifices and conceal the
> martyrdom of other deportees? They, too, have the right to memory.

See above.

[snip]

> We cannot accept that deportation be monopolized by some and that
> journalists who have
> known neither deportation nor war be permitted such manipulation.

Odd to see Mr. Giwer supporting the importance of witness testimony.
> 
> Gaston Pernot
> Doctor of Law
> Commander of the Legion of Honor, Paris
> ("Le Figaro," Friday, May 3, 1996)

[lengthy, tedious, and ungrammatical sig snipped]

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Sun Sep  8 22:15:17 PDT 1996
Article: 63673 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GIWER SEES GENOCIDE AS LEGITIMATE ACT OF WAR (was Re: Ausrotten again)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 21:11:36 +0000
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Nele Abels wrote:
> 
> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> >>>         Yes.  It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather"
> >>> that women and children are to be killed in such cultures.  Are you
> >>> really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world?  Are you
> >>> really that stupid?
> 
[snip]
> 
> Yout said that it is A NORMAL ACT OF WAR TO KILL WOMEN AND CHILDREN so
> that there will be NOBODY LEFT to revenge. THIS IS GENOCIDE.

Exactly.  See Michael Walzer, _Just and Unjust Wars_ (New York, 1977), 
pp. 133-59.

Laurinda Stryker

[snip]


From stryker@serv.net Mon Sep  9 16:13:46 PDT 1996
Article: 63904 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 14:36:19 +0000
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tom moran wrote:
> 
> Laurinda Stryker  wrote:
> 
> >tom moran wrote:
> >>
> >>         In the Holocaust book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" we
> >> are given a photo with the caption: "Arrival and selection of
> >> Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, 1944. Credit: Yad Vashim, Jeruselem".

[snip]

> >>         We are to assume from the "selection" word that either all the
> >> women are to go off to the gas chamber but not the men, or vice versa,

[snip]

> >Why are we to 'assume' this, Mr. Moran?  Testimony consistently states
> >that those arriving at Auschwitz were first divided by sex and then
> >selected for labour or the gas.
> 
>         Then if this is the case, we can't say they were being "selected"
> for any gas chambers. For anyone reading this, watch out for this
> "selection" word when reading Holocaust sales books. It means those
> chosen to go to the gas chambers.

To state what should be obvious: the selection process on the ramp was 
a _process_.  Men and women were separated from each other; small 
children, their mothers, and the infirm were separated from the 
others; the adult men and adult women were then inspected cursorily 
and directed either to join the group destined for labour or that 
which would be sent to the gas.  Survivors with whom I've spoken 
invariably testify to the rapidity of this sorting process; any 
photograph, however, can obviously show only one stage.  'Selection', 
with reference to new arrivals, denotes the process as a whole.
> 
> >[snip]
> >>
> >>         Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
> >> the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
> >> right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
> >> another 60 or 70 feet away.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >Again, this is completely consistent with testimony.  See, for
> >example, Sara Nomberg-Przytyk, _Auschwitz: True Tales from a Grotesque
> >Land_, ed. Eli Pfefferkorn and David H. Hirsch (Chapel Hill:
> >University of North Carolina Press, 1985).
> 
>         Why don't you just present here, instead of referring to a book
> that I have not seen referenced in any library, even the Beverly Hills
> Library? 

I've just checked the catalogue for the Seattle Public Library system, 
which lists several copies of this book.  I know it is readily 
available in university library systems both in America and in the UK.  
I cannot know what the strengths or shortcomings of the Beverly Hills 
Library's collections may be; I would remind you, however, of 
interlibrary loan services.


>And then it is testimony. 

You claimed that 'Holocaust facts...assert the whole operation [i.e. 
the selections on the ramp] was concealed from the rest of the camp.'  
I provided a reference to a discussion of prisoners' responses to 
seeing the arrival of new transports.  You seemed dissatisfied with 
what the photos showed: that new arrivals could be seen from some 
parts of the camp.  Testimony indicates that there is nothing 
problematic in acknowledging that this was in fact the case.  As you 
have not furnished any evidence that 'Holocaust facts' (whatever you 
mean by that) do assert what you claim they assert (and here I am 
echoing your own grammatical construction: _facts_, of course, cannot 
themselves assert anything), I see nothing problematic in my citation.


Testimony being 99% of the
> Holocaust 'facts'.
> 
>         All the "snips" that the lady has put here are those points she
> avoids to comment on, in their context with whatever she has chosen.


To the extent that I can make sense of this sentence, I would simply 
reply that I have answered a number of your points.  The books I have 
in my office here do not contain plans of the Auschwitz-Birkenau 
complex, and so I cannot address your contentions re: its layout.  
Such plans are, of course, readily available. 

Laurinda Stryker 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Wed Sep 11 07:13:33 PDT 1996
Article: 64341 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:32:37 +0000
Organization: ServNet Internet Services
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Alexander Baron wrote:
> 
> In article <323221FE.168E@serv.net> stryker@serv.net "Laurinda Stryker" writes:
> 
> >School of Historical and Critical Studies
> >University of Brighton
> >10-11 Pavilion Parade
> >Brighton BN2 1RA  UK
> 
> Brighton: the home of Historical Review Press. 

[snip]

Hardly.  Uckfield ain't Brighton, believe me.

Guess you don't know much about East Sussex.

Laurinda Stryker
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Thu Sep 12 16:14:14 PDT 1996
Article: 64807 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:03:08 +0000
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On 8 Sep 1996 11:20:18 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
> OBC) wrote:
> 
> >In article <50to9h$n8e@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> 
> >>3. Simon Wiesanthal has stated that no concentration camps were on
> >>German soil.

[snip]
> 
> >No, Mr. Wiesenthal has not said that no concentration camps
> >were on German soil. Once again, Mr. "Stone" lies, just as he
> >did when he claimed that someone, somewhere, had asserted that
> >the Nazis transported 12 million people into concentration
> >camps during a 6 year period.
> 
>         As kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca knows, Wiesethal not only said it but he
> got pissed when I quoted it with URL right from the SWC website.

[snip]

Mr. Giwer:

>From  the SWC website (URL of text quoted: 
http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/gloss.htm):

'CONCENTRATION CAMPS 
       Immediately upon their assumption of power on January 30, 1933, 
the Nazis established
       concentration camps for the imprisonment of all "enemies" of 
their regime: actual and
       potential political opponents (e.g. communists, socialists, 
monarchists), Jehovah's
       Witnesses, gypsies, homosexuals, and other "asocials." 
Beginning in 1938, Jews were
       targeted for internment solely because they were Jews. Before 
then, only Jews who fit one
       of the earlier categories were interned in camps. The first 
three concentration camps
       established were Dachau (near Munich), Buchenwald (near Weimar) 
and Sachsenhausen
       (near Berlin).'


Please note the final sentence.

You will say, of course, that this is not the SWC URL you posted. But 
you posted no such URL in support of your assertions.

You are lying.  But this is nothing new:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitte
d.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

[sophomoric and overlong .sig deleted]

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Thu Sep 12 19:36:10 PDT 1996
Article: 64834 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,alt.flame
Subject: Re: ?
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:27:58 +0000
Organization: ServNet Internet Services
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:64834 alt.politics.white-power:43021 soc.culture.jewish:73478 alt.flame:25301

Dave Harman OBC wrote:

[snip]
> 
> You still lie about the anti-racists being the primary users of crude
> epithets like zog, nigger, kike and chink.

The point, of course, is that it's you who are doing the lying.

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Thu Sep 12 19:36:13 PDT 1996
Article: 64854 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:40:25 +0000
Organization: ServNet Internet Services
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Message-ID: <32382EE9.1A7C@serv.net>
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 08 Sep 1996 01:31:42 +0000, Laurinda Stryker
>  wrote:

[snip]
> 
> >Again, this is completely consistent with testimony.

[snip]
> 
>         It is clearly contrary to the claims that gassing was done in secret
> or have you missed that?

Inmates of Auschwitz-Birkenau knew about the gassings.  There are no 
such claims.

Read some books.

Laurinda Stryker
> 

[.sig deleted]


From stryker@serv.net Fri Sep 13 01:07:27 PDT 1996
Article: 64906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.serv.net!usenet
From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller mystery solved?
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 22:03:00 +0000
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

[snip]

> An air raid shelter which had to take in account
>  an eventual attack with gas, the terror of the germans after the 'vergasung'
>  to which they were submitted during World War 1. 

Nice one.  Who, pray tell, introduced gas warfare?

[snip]

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Fri Sep 13 01:07:28 PDT 1996
Article: 64922 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:26:28 +0000
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 08 Sep 1996 01:31:42 +0000, Laurinda Stryker
>  wrote:
> 
> >tom moran wrote:

[snip]

> >>         Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
> >> the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
> >> right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
> >> another 60 or 70 feet away.
> 
> >[snip]
> 
> >Again, this is completely consistent with testimony.  See, for
> >example, Sara Nomberg-Przytyk, _Auschwitz: True Tales from a Grotesque
> >Land_, ed. Eli Pfefferkorn and David H. Hirsch (Chapel Hill:
> >University of North Carolina Press, 1985).
> 
>         It is clearly contrary to the claims that gassing was done in secret
> or have you missed that?

>From  Fania Fenelon, _Playing for Time_ (NY: Berkley, 1979), pp. 
213-14:

	'The [Hungarian] convoys continued to pour in, stopping in front of 
our door, just fifty yards away from us.  We could see the selected 
walk up the ramp from the platform and disappear from our horizon to 
the gas chambers.  We were separated from the new arrivals only by 
barbed wire.  We could see every detail, we could have talked to them. 
It was appalling to see those calm people, mostly dazed with 
exhaustion, neatly lined up awaiting death without knowing it.'



[sophomoric and overlong .sig deleted]

Laurinda Stryker
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Fri Sep 13 01:07:29 PDT 1996
Article: 64933 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The footnote heard from
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:50:37 +0000
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 08 Sep 1996 02:24:49 +0000, Laurinda Stryker
>  wrote:
> 
> >Matt Giwer wrote:
> >>
> >> The Cry of a Deportee
> >>
> >> A 1940 Gaullist veteran of the Free French Forces (FFL), I was
> >> arrested in October, 1943,
> >> and deported for 18 months to Buchenwald, then to the hell of Dora,
> >> where thousands of
> >> French deportees lost their lives in the underground factories of V1
> >> and V2. I returned
> >> disabled.

Please note that the writer whose letter is quoted was a member of the 
Free French Forces, and was presumably deported as such.  He was not 
victimized on account of being French.  To then state, as Mr. Giwer 
subsequently does, 'Where are the French?' is a non sequitur.

Moreover, 'the French' rightly includes those Jews of French 
citizenship.
> 
> >[snip]
> >>
> >> Let them know, too, that in France, there were about 250,000
> >> deportees, of which about
> >> 25,000 were French Jews. Between 80,000 and 100,000 returned, of which
> >> about 15,000
> >> were Jews.
> 
> >Estimates of Jewish losses for France, from Nora Levin, _The
> >Holocaust_ (New York: Schocken, 1973):
> >
> >       Estimates by Gerald Reitlinger, _The Final Solution_, 1953:
> >               Low: 60,000     High: 65,000
> 
> >       Losses Estimated by Raul Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European
> >               Jews_, 1961: 70,000
> 
>         I quoted fact, not fiction.  You have more deaths than deportees.

Citations?  Evidence?
> 
> >From the 'Statistical Recapitulation of Jewish Deaths by Country',
> >Raul Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European Jews_ (abridged
> >edition, New York: Holmes and Meier, 1985): 75,000
> 
>         Hilberg is not an historian. 
 
I am curious about your definition of 'historian'.  Please elaborate.

>Having an axe to grind makes it less
> credible.

What axe?

> 
> >> Nobody speaks about the non-Jewish deportees. Why?

I have already quoted material from the USHMM.  To this I'll add 
material from the Simon Wiesenthal Center's '36 Questions About the 
Holocaust' (URL: http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/36quest1.htm#3):

'3. How many non-Jewish civilians were murdered during World War II? 

       Answer: While it is impossible to ascertain the exact number, 
the recognized figure is
       approximately 5,000,000. Among the groups which the Nazis and 
their collaborators
       murdered and persecuted were: Gypsies, Serbs, Polish 
intelligentsia, resistance fighters
       from all the nations, German opponents of Nazism, homosexuals, 
Jehovah's Witnesses,
       habitual criminals, and the "anti-social," e.g. beggars, 
vagrants, and hawkers.'



And I needn't remind you of Nizkor's epigraph:

'Dedicated to the nearly twelve million victims 
        ruthlessly destroyed by Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime'

[snip]

>Where are the French?

See above.

[snip]

>         And the best you have is one frigging news article.

References off-line - i.e. in libraries - are not hard to find, as 
you'd know if you made use of those institutions.

One of the most renowned (and most cited) writers of Holocaust 
testimony/literature is Charlotte Delbo, excerpts from whose trilogy 
are featured in most major anthologies of Holocaust writing.  Delbo 
was French; Delbo was not Jewish.  She is, I repeat, well known to all 
who are familiar  with the field.  Her work is, to reiterate, hardly 
considered a 'footnote', as you should know.
> 
>         Actually the issue is that the French, unlike the Jews, are mature
> enough to put it behind them.

Put _what_ behind them, Mr. Giwer?  Are you backpedalling again?
> 

[sophomoric and overlong .sig deleted]

Laurinda Stryker
-- 
School of Historical and Critical Studies
University of Brighton
10-11 Pavilion Parade
Brighton BN2 1RA  UK


From stryker@serv.net Fri Sep 13 09:38:01 PDT 1996
Article: 64995 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Victims and Murderers: Photographs from Belsen Camp
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 22:12:33 +0000
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> 
> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
> > dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> >
> > > Belsen04.jpg: Plump, overweight SS-women bury skeletal corpses in Belsen.
> >
> >         What the Allies found after entering the camp that had been
> > deprived of the necessary supplies for months on end.
> 
[snip]

Don't you like his use of the passive?

Laurinda Stryker


From stryker@serv.net Sat Sep 14 20:26:33 PDT 1996
Article: 65616 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laurinda Stryker 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'There Was No Longer Any Escape'
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 18:20:06 +0000
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Chuck Ferree wrote:

[snip] 

> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> >
> > >Testimony of Hans-Heintz Schutt, SS-officer at Sobibor
> > >[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, 

[snip]

> 
>What moran want is a person who just witnessed the
> gassings to sit down with him, show him the films along with the
> sounds of the inmates crying for pity, gasping for breath, open a
> bottle so he gets the odors of death, submit to stupid interrogation,
> and then moran would say..."aw bullshit, you expect me to believe that
> story? By the way, you're Jewish, right!"
> >
[clip] 
 
> Chuck   (sigh)

And even if s/he's not Jewish, s/he is obviously a lackey of the Jews, 
so it still wouldn't count.

I wonder if even witnessing the gassings himself would be sufficient?  
Given Moran's propensity for referring to himself in the third person, 
he'd likely find even his own testimony suspect.

Laurinda Stryker

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