The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/streicher.julius/1996/usenet.0996


From rblackmore@juno.com Wed Sep  4 16:49:13 PDT 1996
Article: 62314 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 4 Sep 1996 08:42:18 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   Alexander Baron  writes:
>  In article <3229ef9c.2660182@news.inetport.com>
>  > >I specifically asked for proof of Streicher being a publisher of pornography 
>  > >by posting directly from his publications.   Give me quotes directly from "Der
>  >  Stuermer", 
>  
>  Der Stuermer was a very disreputable magazine; it was banned three or four times
>  under the Nazis. If he hadn't been a favourite of Hitler, Streicher would have ended
>  up in a concentration camp.
>  
>  
>  > "In Berlin, Nazi physicians used a  particularly repellent combination
>  > of anti-semitism and pornography worthy of Der Stuermer to bring about
>  > the removal of their Jewish 'colleagues' and competitors. 
>  
>  This sounds less like anti-Semitism than pragmatism.
>  
>  -- 
>  "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>  the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
>  
>>>>
The above contains no direct quotes from Streicher's publications.
.  I am not arguing whether Der Stuermer was filled
with anti-Jewish verbiage.  This is a common fact.  I am asking for proof that
Streicher printed pornography in a sexual sense, as is claimed by practically
all of his detractors.  That is all I am asking:  Give us selections which prove
what he published was pornographic in a sexual sense, or admit that his 
detractors have lied and published false and slanderous accusations.


From schwartz@infinet.com Wed Sep  4 16:49:18 PDT 1996
Article: 62324 of alt.revisionism
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From: schwartz@infinet.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:22:38 -0400
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In article <50jlqu$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >Hopefully I will explain this so even you may understand.  What I said
> [...]
> 
> Ah, something I forgot: when you read "pornographer", please try to understand
> that we are talking about the 30s and 40s and that you should not expect
> what you will find in the net nowadays.

An EXCELLENT point, Nele.
 
In the 30s and 40s, pictures of Bettie Page in her underwear were
considered absolutely obscene and extremely pornographic. Now they're put
into calendars and sold in comic books stores.
 
Sara

-- 
"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
    Edith Sitwell


From dkeren@world.std.com Wed Sep  4 16:49:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62343 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
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Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:09:59 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com (aka jbellings), writes:

# Mr. Keren-I don't know why, but I expected more from you.
# Are you suggesting, as apparently you are-that Streicher
# deserved death simply because of what he wrote as quoted
# above, or similar statements?

Not an easy question. Would I have sentenced Streicher to
the rope, had I been the judge? It's very possible that I
would not have.

But, regardless of that, he was indeed one revolting
swine; and I still bet that the last sound he made, while
dangling, was a little pig squeal.

Are you a happier person now, or did I disappoint you
once again?


-Danny Keren.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 16:49:26 PDT 1996
Article: 62361 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:46:24 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Isn't it a fact that a group of rabbinical students
>attempted to assassinate Spinoza by stabbing 
>him in the back, simply because of his beliefs
>and what he wrote?

Then he was ex-communicated.



From mcurtis@inetport.com Wed Sep  4 23:29:53 PDT 1996
Article: 62456 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 03:36:03 GMT
Reply-To: mcurtis@inetport.com
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
>
>
>Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
>being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
>magazine.

Who said he was like Flynt or Goldstein? You?

>  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
>I asked for specific proof that this man was a pornographer, in a sexual
>sense, and confirmed by his very own publications, and or judgements
>against him on these charges in any court before Nuremberg.  Can 
>any of you provide this proof or not?

I sent you some.



Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

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From mcurtis@inetport.com Wed Sep  4 23:29:55 PDT 1996
Article: 62457 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?,2-Mark Van Alstine's Strike 1
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 03:36:01 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  Add the following to my rather lengthy response to you concerning the
>>  misfit Streicher:
>>  
>>  "The mail sperm in cohabitation is partially or completely absorbed by
>>  the female and thus enters her bloodstream. One single cohabitation of
>>  a Jew with an Aryan woman is sufficient to poison her blood forever.
>>  Never again will she be able to bear purely Aryan children, even when
>>  married to an Aryan. They will all be bastards.
>>     Now we know why the Jew uses every artifice of seduction in order
>>  to ravish German girls at as early age as possible; why the Jewish
>>  doctor rapes his female patients while they are under anesthetic."
>>  
>>  [Quoted from _Hitler Path To Power_ by Charles B. Flood, Houghton
>>  Mifflin, 1989, page 282.]
>>  
>>  Every historian I've read and every Nazi memoir I have read described
>>  Steicher work as sometimes being pornographic. He obviously had a
>>  fixation on Jews having relations with "German women" and was much
>>  more graphic than this. Maybe somone here has much more exciting
>>  example for you. As I pointed out, most of us do not collect
>>  Streicher. I guess we should.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>None of this is pornography, nor was anything you posted in your
>previous response.

I am deeply sory it wasn't kinky enough for you or that you think
Goering, Schacht, von Papen, and even Hitler thought what he wrote was
pornographic. 

>  Are you suggesting that a person receive the
>death sentence for what was quoted above?

He wasn't hung for being a pornographer. You need to look to a longer
post. I believe you read it. It outlined month by month the writings
he used and finally the post wrapped up with the sentence.


Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

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From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:27:55 PDT 1996
Article: 62472 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 5 Sep 1996 05:00:26 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>  > >  
>  >Mike Curtis writes:
>  
>  Herr Schwarzesel, you are neither humble nor do you have "opinions." What
>  you _do_ have is the proclivity for Nazi hero worship (e.g. Streicher) and
>  apologia (i.e. ranting against Streicher's conviction for crimes against
>  humanity.)  
>  
What you have is no evidence.
>  >
 I found nothing pornographic in any of the quotes,

  But then you also seem to think _Screw_ is the "standard" for pornagraphy...

It's a good place to start..
>  
>  > nor could I find any justification as to why Streicher was killed. I posted 
>  > my reasons why.
>  
>  Then, Herr Schwarzesel, you are blind as well as stupid. The reasons for
>  Streicher's conviction for crimes against humanity was laid out in black
>  and white in the IMT's judgement against Streicher. Any poerson with a
>  modicum of intelligence and integrity can easily understand this. But, of
>  course, you are neither intelligent, nor possess any integrity....
>  
Now, Mark, let's review the "evidence" you have posted as a reply to my
request:  

1.  I am a "Nazi".
2.  I am a "Schwarzesel".
3.  I am "blind".
4.  I am "stupid".
5.  I am devoid of intelligence and integrity..

Gosh, you're starting to sound more and more like Ilya Ehrenburg every day.
>  
>>>>
Well, now it's "Schwartzesel".  For those who do not know, this means "black jack-ass".
And, yes, I do think "Screw" magazine is a good example of pornography, perhaps you
think otherwise?  
Thank you for your enlightened response to my request for documentary proof.  Let the
reader draw his or her own conslusions about how you filled the request.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:27:59 PDT 1996
Article: 62481 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 4 Sep 1996 08:57:56 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <50jgak$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com>
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>   Annie Alpert  writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > For the reader's information, I addressed Mike Curtis's
>  > remarks on Streicher being a pornographer,  , the proof
>  >  of which he failed to provide.  They wrack their brains for
>  >  hours thinking ofan explanation that might get them off the hook.
>  >   Unfortunately for them, the only thing that will get them off the
>  > hook is providing direct Evidence.....
>  
>  Oh, honestly, rblackmore (or whatever your name is).  It's so easy to
>  look up information on Julius Streicher even my 7-yr-old daughter could
>  do it.  Why waste bandwidth on this type of malarkey.  Are you seriously
>  trying to defend Streicher in any way, shape or form?

I am saying he did not deserve to be executed for publishing nonsense.
>  
>  As editor of Der Sturmer, a violently anti-Semitic paper, he took great
>  pleasure in publishing sexually explicit drawings of lovely Aryan girls
>  and extraordinarily well-hung Jews.

Like the Klan portrays Blacks?  And if this is true, is this just
cause to execute a human being?
>  
>>>>
Ms. Alpert:  I have seen many of these cartoons..
  Do you seriously contend these 
ridiculous drawings of fair maidens with a top portion of a blouse
slung down a shoulder is pornography?  I am aware of Streicher's
opinions regarding the Jewish people-are you suggesting that 
everyone who dislikes or even loathes Jewish people should be
put to death?  Will we now prosecute every person who publishes
 racist material in this country and make this a capital offense? 
 There are black people who loath whites and vice
versa, etc. etc. Shall we declare people's aversions to others 
capital crimes?  Streicher did not belong at Nuremberg.  He was 
entitled to his opinions, however loathsome they might have been.
Now, I am still waiting for proof of pornograhic writings and or
illustrations or an admission that these tales were fabrications.
Also, concerning Synder-this is exactly what I am referring to:
accusations without recourse to documentation.  And even if
he was a pornographer-which apparently he wasn't-this is not an
offense punishable by death.  In fact, Streicher's publication was
very similar to one published in America called "The Thunderbolt",
Do you suggest that the publisher of this paper be lynched?


From mcurtis@inetport.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:01 PDT 1996
Article: 62491 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 03:36:04 GMT
Reply-To: mcurtis@inetport.com
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>The following is a reply to Mr. McVay's poor attempt
>to provide evidence that Julius Streicher was a
>purveyor of Pornography.  For his response, see
>his posting as part of the thread under:
>Julius Streicher2-PORNOGRAPHER
>
>Are you suggesting that Streicher fabricated all these accusations, or
>were they accusations directing against the Jews from various sources,
>courts, etc., over the years.  Even after Streicher's death, the blood accu-
>sation was leveled against the Jews in Kielce, Poland in 1946?, and Messina,
>New York.  Streicher had nothing to do with these cases.  Aside from 
>deliberately changing the subject again, you have NOT provided evidence
>for my inquiry....You mean you don't have it?!?  PS..Now that you have posted
>]Streicher's propanganda, will you next post what Ilya Ehrenburg wrote concerning
>Germans?  Also, when Streicher's newspaper was at it's peak, the paper had 700,000
>subscribers, which dropped to 400,000 during the war.  By the way, some Jews can be
>recognized by their noses, as can Italians and Arabs...Where does any of the above
>]give the allies the right to execute this person?  You have much more violent statements
>being published on the internet and in other private publications right in this country.
>It is called the right to free speech, and is protected and guaranteed by the first
>amendment, just as the quotes you cited above.  Don't tell me that the Germans
>were not entitled to free speech.....No one should have their life taken away from
>them simply for exercising the basic human right of free speech.  
>

I see you read it and now you are being dishonest about it. Pretty
sad.



Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

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From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:04 PDT 1996
Article: 62508 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:37:44 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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Mr. McVay writes:
>  
>       "The numerous confessions made by the Jews show that
>       the execution of ritual murders is a law to the Talmud
>       Jew. The former chief rabbi, and later monk, Teofite,
>       declared that the ritual murders take place especially
>       on the Jewish Purim in memory of the Persian murders,
>       and Passover in memory of the murder of Christ. The
>       instructions are as follows:
>       
>       "The blood of the victims is to be tapped by force. On
>       Passover it is to be used in wine and matzos. Thus, a
>       small part of the blood is to be poured into the dough
>       of the matzos and into the wine. The mixing is done by
>       the Jewish head of the family. The procedure is as
>       follows:
>       
>       "The family head empties a few drops of the fresh and
>       powdered blood into the glass, wets the fingers of the
>       left hand with it and sprays, blesses, with it
>       everything on the table. The head of the family then
>       says, 'Thus we ask God to send the ten plagues to all
>       enemies of the Jewish faith.' Then they eat, and at the
>       end the head of the family exclaims, 'May all Gentiles
>       perish, as the child whose blood is contained in the
>       bread and wine.'
>      
To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher:  I am not denying what he wrote...I 
am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their
opinions.  I don't know how many times I have posted this.  You
people are not dense, but you are letting your revulsion about
what Streicher wrote overrule your own common sense here. By
doing this, you stoop down to his level.  By the way, Madelyn O'Hare
has written similar hateful comments about the Bible.

PS:  The stuff about Ritual Murder is nonsense of course, but you don't
disprove it by killing the author of the libel!  Others have written about this
subject as well, such as Sir Richard Burton, Arnold Leese, Joshua Trachtenberg,
Mr. Strack, and others...this is a very old libel, as you well know.


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:05 PDT 1996
Article: 62510 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:43:06 -0800
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In article <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>, Herr Schwarzesel drooled:

> Mark Van Alstine rages:
>   
> >  According to _you_, Herr Schwarzmehr. Needless to say your "standard" of
> >  "proof" is about as twisted as Streicher's idea of a good time.
> 
> What was his idea of a good time, Herr Van Alstine? 

Well, Herr Schwarzesel, I dare say _you_ are _far_ more "qualified" in
telling us about what such twisted and perverted individuals, such as
Streicher, considered a "good time." 

> My standard of proof?

Yes. Or rather, your lack of _any_ standards -as well as any proof.

> I asked you to supply evidence direct from Streicher's publications that he 
> was a purveyor of pornography, as the slander goes...

No, Herr Schwarzesel, you wrote:

In article <509b4r$mh4@juliana.sprynet.com>, Herr Schwarzesel grunted:

> To Mark Van Alstine who replied to Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth, 
> concerning a remark I made to Chuck Feree's response to the same article.  
> I reminded Chuck of his failure to provide proof that Julius Streicher 
> published pornography. Mark sent some snips from Streicher's IMT 
> proceedings which failed to provide the proof requested.Thus: 

Please focus your (meager) intellect on the part: "I reminded Chuck of his
failure to provide proof that Julius Streicher published pornography."

Backpedaling already, Herr Schwarzesel? 


Let the reader decide whether my request is twisted or not.... 

Well, considering that I actually did read your drivel, and did find it
twisted...

> >  > Well, thanks for supplying all the above, but I have read it all
before.  
> >  
> >  I sincerely doubt that, Herr Schwarzmehr.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you again. 

I'm not dissapointed, Herr Schwarzesel. I fully expected that you where
without the slightest clue as to what you are talking about. My
expectations were simply confirmed by your ignorance -and arrogance.  

> >  > You failed to provide proof of Streicher 
> >  > publishing pornography-and when I say pornography, I mean the likes
of Al 
> >  > Goldstein's Screw magazine.  That is how I define pornography. 
> >    
> >  > That stuff about alien albumen etc. is drivel, and hardly fits in
with my 
> >  > definition of pornography. 
> >  
> >  Again, I could care less how _you_ define pornography, Herr Schwarzmehr.
> 
> It's not my definition.  It's the definition provided by Streicher's 
> detractors, without any proof, as you have amply shown us. 

Afraid not, Herr Schwarzesel. The only person vaccuously touting a
"definition" of pornography like "Al Goldstein's Screw magazine" etc. is
YOU, Herr Schwarzesel. 

> >  > Much worse is published every day in the United States, and is
protected > >  > by the first amendment. 

Oops, seems like you left out part of my comment, Herr Schwarzesel! Now
why would that be? Perhaps it is due to your scurrilous character? 

I wrote:

"We are talking about Streicher, his _Der Stu"rmer_, and the reason he was
convicted (and executed) for crimes against humanity, Herr Schwarzmehr.
(Not that much of what is published today _wouldn't_ have landed a
publisher in hot water for publishing obscenities fifty years ago.)"
 
> >  (Not that much of what is published today _wouldn't_ have landed a
> >  publisher in hot water for publishing obscenities fifty years ago.)
> 
> In hot water?  Surely you jest!  A man was murdered for exercising his right
> to free speech. 

Herr Schwarzesel, Streicher was tried, convicted, and executed for crimes
against humanity. I know it's hard for you, but do try and keep up.... 

> >  > One cannot justify executing another human being simply because they
> >  have a >noxious personality, hold unorthodox opinions, or even publish
> >  libels.
> >  
> >  Is Schwarzmehr similar to Schwarzenegger?

Not in the least, Herr Schwarzesel. Mr. Schwarzenegger is a successful
businessman and an upstanding U.S. citizen. You, on the other hand, are a
pathetic Nazi apologist and lackey.  

> Well, does this mean that you concede defeat?  

How can one possibly conceded "defeat," Herr Schwarzesel, when you are
sitting in the "corner" with your head up your ass and drooling? In fact,
one gets the impression that all you've managed to do is beat yourself
senseless....

> By the way, I read the entire proceedings against Streicher at 
> Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was absolutely no justification for his 
> execution, aside from the fact that he disliked Jews. 

Herr Schwarzesel, it is pathetic apologistic proclamations such as this
that confirm you are simply blowing smoke out your butt. If you _had_ read
and _comprehended_ the IMT proceeding and jusdgement against Streicher you
would be making such an ass of yourself.   

> By the  way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith
happens > to agree that the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  

Herr Schwarzesel, did you know that Mr. Smith is neither emminent nor a
historian? And that his opinions regarding the IMT judgement of Streicher
are are nothing more than the absurd bleatings of a Holocaust denier? 

> You have failed to provide the proof I requested, and by your violent and 
> childish outbursts have now branded yourself as a frustrated fool in the eyes 
> of many people who visit this web-site and follow these threads.  

On the contrary, Herr Schwarzesel, I have readily provided the relevent
passages from various texts refutes your idiotic claims regarding
Sreicher. That and to evidence that you are an obfuscating and pompus ass
as well as a Nazi apologist. 

> Keep up the good work.....

Never fear, Herr Schwarzesel, I fully intend to. It amuses me to now end
to frustrate pathetic little Nazis-wannbes, such as yourself, in their
promulgating Nazi apologia and propaganda. And to watch them turn
apoplectic in their impotence when they are so frustrated. 

> ...in a few years we might even present you with an award for rendering 
> services to the cause of historical revisionism.

Words to remember, Herr Schwarzesel. I'll be sure to remind you of them
when you are presented with your crow pie.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:06 PDT 1996
Article: 62512 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:43:10 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <50m0ae$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <322d6c6b.2243454@news.inetport.com>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>  
>  I think my example was much more pornographic than your example, but
>  why quibble. LOL!
>  
>  Maybe this will turn RBlackmore on!
>  
>  >pornography: "(3) the depiction of acts in a sensational manner
>  >so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction (the ~ of
>  >violence)" (Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth
>  >Edition. Springfield, Mass (1993)
>  >
>  >Regarding Mr. Streicher, and Der Stuermer:
>  >
>  >"Streicher's periodical, Der Stuermer, (issue no. 14 for April 1937) 
>  >in particular, went to such extremes as to publish the statement that 
>  >Jews at the ritual celebration of their Passover slaughtered Christians:"
>  >
>  >     "The numerous confessions made by the Jews show that
>  >     the execution of ritual murders is a law to the Talmud
>  >     Jew. The former chief rabbi, and later monk, Teofite,
>  >     declared that the ritual murders take place especially
>  >     on the Jewish Purim in memory of the Persian murders,
>  >     and Passover in memory of the murder of Christ. The
>  >     instructions are as follows:
>  >     
>  >     "The blood of the victims is to be tapped by force. On
>  >   
>>>>
Mr. Curtis:  I think your crude remarks are uncalled for, and more worthy of Der
Stuermer than alt.revisionism.  I have never resorted to filthy epithets or vile
innuendoes to attack you.  Such tactics are undignified.  And I don't want to 
get into a discussion of the Talmud or the Bible or any other religious writings-
that is beyond the scope of this discussion.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:08 PDT 1996
Article: 62519 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:26:52 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <50lvbs$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com (aka jbellings), writes:
>  
>  # Mr. Keren-I don't know why, but I expected more from you.
>  # Are you suggesting, as apparently you are-that Streicher
>  # deserved death simply because of what he wrote as quoted
>  # above, or similar statements?
>  
>  Not an easy question. Would I have sentenced Streicher to
>  the rope, had I been the judge? It's very possible that I
>  would not have.
>  
>  But, regardless of that, he was indeed one revolting
>  swine; and I still bet that the last sound he made, while
>  dangling, was a little pig squeal.
>  
>  Are you a happier person now, or did I disappoint you
>  once again?
>  
>  
>  -Danny Keren.
>  
>  
>>>>
You have answered my question.  Thank you.  I can understand
why you feel the way you do- Streicher didn't have a very endearing 
personality.  And, yes, I'll wager he did moan and groan or whatever
when he was murdered.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:10 PDT 1996
Article: 62525 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 5 Sep 1996 05:25:17 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <322c74af.10309628@news.spry.com>, klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis)
>  wrote:
>  
>  > On 3 Sep 1996 09:32:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > >Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>  > >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
>  > >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
>  > >magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
>  > 
>  > 
>  > No, Mr. Belling. YOU are trying to define the definition of pornograpy
>  > in terms of Larry Flint or Al Goldstein. The definition has been given
>  > to you. You just don't wish to accept it.

Let's try Robert Wistrich's definition of the word, as it relates to Streicher:

"This weekly newspaper (The Stuermer) was notorious on account of it's coarse 
carricatures, it's repulsive photos of Jews, it's histories of Ritual Murder, it's porno-
graphic elements, and it's rude style."  (Who was who in the Third Reich, 1983
edition)  Npw, Mr. Mark Webster, what do you suppose he means by "pornographic
elements?  Shall I supply you with more examples?  I'd be more than happy to oblige.
It is YOUR definition which has been given to me, because you find dealing with the truth
can be uncomfortable.  Do you seriously believe you are impressing people with your
tactics of name-calling and abuse?  
>  
>  Hero worship, obviously. Next thing you know Herr Schwarzesel will
>  "define" pornograpy according to how Streicher "defined" it! 

Who thought up that clever little nickname of Schwarzesel?  Don Rickles?
>  
Thank you for your kind remarks.  Not only have you lost this argument, but
you appear to have lost your mind as well.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:13 PDT 1996
Article: 62539 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 3 Sep 1996 09:54:19 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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The following is a reply to Mr. McVay's poor attempt
to provide evidence that Julius Streicher was a
purveyor of Pornography.  For his response, see
his posting as part of the thread under:
Julius Streicher2-PORNOGRAPHER

Are you suggesting that Streicher fabricated all these accusations, or
were they accusations directing against the Jews from various sources,
courts, etc., over the years.  Even after Streicher's death, the blood accu-
sation was leveled against the Jews in Kielce, Poland in 1946?, and Messina,
New York.  Streicher had nothing to do with these cases.  Aside from 
deliberately changing the subject again, you have NOT provided evidence
for my inquiry....You mean you don't have it?!?  PS..Now that you have posted
]Streicher's propanganda, will you next post what Ilya Ehrenburg wrote concerning
Germans?  Also, when Streicher's newspaper was at it's peak, the paper had 700,000
subscribers, which dropped to 400,000 during the war.  By the way, some Jews can be
recognized by their noses, as can Italians and Arabs...Where does any of the above
]give the allies the right to execute this person?  You have much more violent statements
being published on the internet and in other private publications right in this country.
It is called the right to free speech, and is protected and guaranteed by the first
amendment, just as the quotes you cited above.  Don't tell me that the Germans
were not entitled to free speech.....No one should have their life taken away from
them simply for exercising the basic human right of free speech.  



From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:14 PDT 1996
Article: 62543 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:48:34 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <50m0ki$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <322CA4BC.2FDF@rio.com>
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>   Chuck Ferree  writes:
>  Chuck Ferree writes:
>  
>  Who cares about Streicher! He was a creepy-peepy. He dangled from the 
>  noose, died like a coward that he was. His past caught up with him 
>  during the trials. Why beat a dead horse to death again. Why not just 
>  let the turkey roast in hell, with all his Nazi pals.
>  
>  Chuck
>  
>  
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  > 
>  > Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>  > already mentioned that in my first post.  
>  
>  Hey no proof is necessary. You, blackmore, you prove what the hell 
>  ever your point is. It doesn't matter one way or the other.
>  Chuck
>  
>>>>
Then why are you bothering to respond, Chuck?


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:20 PDT 1996
Article: 62569 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 3 Sep 1996 10:48:34 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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Mark Van Alstine rages:
  
>  According to _you_, Herr Schwarzmehr. Needless to say your "standard" of
>  "proof" is about as twisted as Streicher's idea of a good time.

What was his idea of a good time, Herr Van Alstine?  My standard of proof?
I asked you to supply evidence direct from Streicher's publications that he was a
purveyor of pornography, as the slander goes...Let the reader decide whether my
request is twisted or not.... 
>  
>  > Well, thanks for supplying all the above, but I have read it all before.  
>  
>  I sincerely doubt that, Herr Schwarzmehr.

Sorry to disappoint you again. 
>  
>  > You failed to provide proof of Streicher 
>  > publishing pornography-and when I say pornography, I mean the likes of Al 
>  > Goldstein's Screw magazine.  That is how I define pornography. 
>    
>  > That stuff about alien albumen etc. is drivel, and hardly fits in with my 
>  > definition of pornography. 
>  
>  Again, I could care less how _you_ define pornography, Herr Schwarzmehr.

It's not my definition.  It's the definition provided by Streicher's detractors, without
any proof, as you have amply shown us. 
>  
>  > Much worse is published every day in the United States, and is protected by 
>  > the first amendment. 

>  (Not that much of what is published today _wouldn't_ have landed a
>  publisher in hot water for publishing obscenities fifty years ago.)

In hot water?  Surely you jest!  A man was murdered for exercising his right
to free speech. 
>  
>  > One cannot justify executing another human being simply because they
>  have a >noxious personality, hold unorthodox opinions, or even publish
>  libels.
>  
>  Is Schwarzmehr similar to Schwarzenegger?
>>>>
Well, does this mean that you concede defeat?  By the way, I read the entire
proceedings against Streicher at Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was absolutely
no justification for his execution, aside from the fact that he disliked Jews.  By the 
way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith happens to agree that
the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  You have failed to provide the proof I
requested, and by your violent and childish outbursts have now branded yourself
as a frustrated fool in the eyes of many people who visit this web-site and follow these
threads.  Keep up the good work.....in a few years we might even present you with
an award for rendering services to the cause of historical revisionism.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:20 PDT 1996
Article: 62570 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Frank-Reply to Gordon McFee
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:59:14 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <50m18i$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
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>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  >>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  >>  
>  >>  >I am pleased to hear that Speer was treated so correctly.  How about Streicher and his wife?  
Goering, his 
>  >>  >wife, and child?  Kaltenbrunner?  The undernourished and ill Hess? Hans Frank? Jodl and his wife?  
>  >>  >Perhaps you can tell us how they were treated?  If you can't, then I will.
>  >>  
>  >>  
>  >>  Seems they were hung for their crimes. You tell us what happened to
>  >>  their families. 
>  >>  
>  
>  >>  Seems they were hung for their crimes. You tell us what happened to
>  >>  their families. 
>  
>  >  Streicher's wife?  Goering's wife and daughter?
>  >Jodl's wife?  Sauckel's family?  Hess's family?  And be just a teeny bit patient-I
>  >wouldn't want to disapoint you in the least. Iwill soon let everyone know what
>  > happened to their families......
>  
>  So you did understand. Why don't you tell us now? Probably the same
>  thing happened to them as happened to Schacht and von Papen. German
>  people didn't treat them very well. None of this means much when it
>  comes to the Holocaust which is the subject under discussion.
>  
>
>  
>>>>
Ha, ha, ha.  Simple lies from simple minds.

For a breath of fresh air visit:  http://www.codoh.com/


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62587 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:14:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 5 Sep 1996 05:00:26 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:


>>  > >  
>>  >Mike Curtis writes:
>>  
>>  Herr Schwarzesel, you are neither humble nor do you have "opinions." What
>>  you _do_ have is the proclivity for Nazi hero worship (e.g. Streicher) and
>>  apologia (i.e. ranting against Streicher's conviction for crimes against
>>  humanity.)  
>>  
>What you have is no evidence.
>>  >
> I found nothing pornographic in any of the quotes,

>  But then you also seem to think _Screw_ is the "standard" for pornagraphy...

>It's a good place to start..
>>  
>>  > nor could I find any justification as to why Streicher was killed. I posted 
>>  > my reasons why.
>>  
>>  Then, Herr Schwarzesel, you are blind as well as stupid. The reasons for
>>  Streicher's conviction for crimes against humanity was laid out in black
>>  and white in the IMT's judgement against Streicher. Any poerson with a
>>  modicum of intelligence and integrity can easily understand this. But, of
>>  course, you are neither intelligent, nor possess any integrity....
>>  
>Now, Mark, let's review the "evidence" you have posted as a reply to my
>request:  

>1.  I am a "Nazi".

	This is a libel that deserves to be answered in blood.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu Thu Sep  5 07:28:24 PDT 1996
Article: 62591 of alt.revisionism
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From: Brian Harmon 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:07:34 -0700
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Isn't it a fact that a group of rabbinical students
> attempted to assassinate Spinoza by stabbing
> him in the back, simply because of his beliefs
> and what he wrote?

Who cares?  I thought we were discussing 
 holocaust revisionism.

What rabbinical students do or do not do is
 beside the point.

...unless you'd rather talk about them nasty joos...

Brian Harmon 
==========================
brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Thu Sep  5 10:20:17 PDT 1996
Article: 62596 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:40:52 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <50mopk$6gg@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <50gv8b$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca

In article <50gv8b$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Are you suggesting that Streicher fabricated all these accusations, or
>were they accusations directing against the Jews from various sources,
>courts, etc., over the years.  Even after Streicher's death, the blood accu-
>sation was leveled against the Jews in Kielce, Poland in 1946?, and Messina,

I am suggesting that Streicher's writing fits comfortably
within the commonly accepted definition of pornography, which
is what we are discussing. We are not discussing his rabid
hatred of Jews, but how he wrote his newspaper.

>recognized by their noses, as can Italians and Arabs...Where does any of the above
>]give the allies the right to execute this person?  You have much more violent statements

Changing the subject won't fly. I offered a standard
definition of pornography, and instances of Streicher's
writing that most certainly fit that definition. You elect to
(1) reject the definition, and (2) change the subject.

Not surprising.

If you want to deal with the man's trial, say so.

-- 
The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here
                       |--------------------------------------
    http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/random-giwer-lie.cgi


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep  5 10:20:20 PDT 1996
Article: 62599 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:13:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <50m94l$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <50jgsh$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:09:59 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com (aka jbellings), writes:

># Mr. Keren-I don't know why, but I expected more from you.
># Are you suggesting, as apparently you are-that Streicher
># deserved death simply because of what he wrote as quoted
># above, or similar statements?

>Not an easy question. Would I have sentenced Streicher to
>the rope, had I been the judge? It's very possible that I
>would not have.

>But, regardless of that, he was indeed one revolting
>swine; and I still bet that the last sound he made, while
>dangling, was a little pig squeal.

>Are you a happier person now, or did I disappoint you
>once again?

	It reads like you think there is something special about pigs.  

	Too Jewish.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Thu Sep  5 10:20:21 PDT 1996
Article: 62600 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:56:48 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <50mpng$6mq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <322CBFF9.5445@ccnis.net> <50jgak$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca

In article <50jgak$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>  Oh, honestly, rblackmore (or whatever your name is).  It's so easy to
>>  look up information on Julius Streicher even my 7-yr-old daughter could
>>  do it.  Why waste bandwidth on this type of malarkey.  Are you seriously
>>  trying to defend Streicher in any way, shape or form?

>I am saying he did not deserve to be executed for publishing nonsense.

Thank you for defining his writing as nonsense. Now perhaps
you will provide a copy of the indictment, and demonstrate he
was hung for "writing nonsense." You'll find it in NCA Vol.
II.

-- 
The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here
                       |--------------------------------------
    http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/random-giwer-lie.cgi


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Thu Sep  5 10:20:22 PDT 1996
Article: 62601 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 5 Sep 1996 08:00:06 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <50mptm$6ob@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <50f48r$asf@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50m008$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca

In article <50m008$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Mr. McVay writes:

[Streicher's pornographic material]
  
>To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher:  I am not denying what he wrote...I 
>am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their
>opinions.  I don't know how many times I have posted this.  You

You are also changing the subject, Sir. You asked for proof
that his writing was pornographic. I provided it. You first
rejected a common English definition ("revisionist
scholarship" in action, as usual) then changed the subject.

We are not talking about why the man was hung - we are talking
about his pornographic writing. Do try and focus, won't you?

-- 
The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here
                       |--------------------------------------
    http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/random-giwer-lie.cgi


From chuckf@rio.com Thu Sep  5 12:13:59 PDT 1996
Article: 62634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!news.utdallas.edu!news01.aud.alcatel.com!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.rio.com!news
From: Chuck Ferree 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:35:56 +0000
Organization: Northwest Internet Services, Inc.
Lines: 20
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Chuck Ferree writes:

Who cares about Streicher! He was a creepy-peepy. He dangled from the 
noose, died like a coward that he was. His past caught up with him 
during the trials. Why beat a dead horse to death again. Why not just 
let the turkey roast in hell, with all his Nazi pals.

Chuck


rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
> 
> Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
> already mentioned that in my first post.  

Hey no proof is necessary. You, blackmore, you prove what the hell 
ever your point is. It doesn't matter one way or the other.
Chuck


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Sep  5 12:14:04 PDT 1996
Article: 62647 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:51:37 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 69
Message-ID: 
References:  <50gtb2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <50gtb2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <50ehns$190@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  > For the reader's information, I addressed Mike Curtis's
> >  > remarks on Streicher being a pornographer,  , the proof
> >  >  of which he failed to provide.  They wrack their brains for
> >  >  hours thinking ofan explanation that might get them off the hook.
> >  >   Unfortunately for them, the only thing that will get them off the
> >  > hook is providing direct Evidence.....
> >  
> >  For "direct evidence" of Streicher's pornographic (as well as obscene and
> >  anti-Semtic) proclivities, one need only to look at issues of his paper,
> >  _Der Stu"rmer_. 
> >  
> >  For a synopsis of this and why Streicher was convicted and hanged as a war
> >  criminal please see my article "Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?",
> >  thankfully archived by DejaNews, at:
> >  
> >  
>
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3cmvanalst-3008960158220001@rbi144.rbi.com%3e&serve
> r=dnserver.db96q3&CONTEXT=841679560.25626&hitnum=0
> >  
> >  Mark
> >  
> > 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and
evil passes 
> >  not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
> >  right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
> >  
> >  -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
> > 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  
> >>>>
> I already addressed your response. It failed to meet the burden of proof,
> in my humble opinion.  

Herr Schwarzesel, you are neither humble nor do you have "opinions." What
you _do_ have is the proclivity for Nazi hero worship (e.g. Streicher) and
apologia (i.e. ranting against Streicher's conviction for crimes against
humanity.)  

> I found nothing pornographic in any of the quotes,

But then you also seem to think _Screw_ is the "standard" for pornagraphy....

> nor could I find any justification as to why Streicher was killed. I posted 
> my reasons why.

Then, Herr Schwarzesel, you are blind as well as stupid. The reasons for
Streicher's conviction for crimes against humanity was laid out in black
and white in the IMT's judgement against Streicher. Any poerson with a
modicum of intelligence and integrity can easily understand this. But, of
course, you are neither intelligent, nor possess any integrity....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 15:41:57 PDT 1996
Article: 62694 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:51:26 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <50m0pu$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <322c74af.10309628@news.spry.com>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: hd25-059.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>  On 3 Sep 1996 09:32:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  >
>  >
>  >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>  >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
>  >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
>  >magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
>  
>  
>  No, Mr. Belling. YOU are trying to define the definition of pornograpy
>  in terms of Larry Flint or Al Goldstein. The definition has been given
>  to you. You just don't wish to accept it.
>  
>>>>Mr Blackmore responds to the above argument:
Sorry, but I already explained that it was this description of Streicher as a
purveyor of pornography in a sexual sense, which prompted me to research
the evidence for the charge.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 15:41:59 PDT 1996
Article: 62695 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:53:03 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <50m0sv$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
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>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <322c74af.10309628@news.spry.com>, klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis)
>  wrote:
>  
>  > On 3 Sep 1996 09:32:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > >Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>  > >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
>  > >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
>  > >magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
>  > 
>  > 
>  > No, Mr. Belling. YOU are trying to define the definition of pornograpy
>  > in terms of Larry Flint or Al Goldstein. The definition has been given
>  > to you. You just don't wish to accept it.
>  
>  Hero worship, obviously. Next thing you know Herr Schwarzesel will
>  "define" pornograpy according to how Streicher "defined" it! 
>  
>  Mark
>  
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>  not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>  right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>  
>  -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
>>>>
What are you implying?


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Sep  5 15:42:00 PDT 1996
Article: 62698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:36:53 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <322c74af.10309628@news.spry.com>, klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis)
wrote:

> On 3 Sep 1996 09:32:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> >Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
> >
> >
> >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
> >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
> >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
> >magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
> 
> 
> No, Mr. Belling. YOU are trying to define the definition of pornograpy
> in terms of Larry Flint or Al Goldstein. The definition has been given
> to you. You just don't wish to accept it.

Hero worship, obviously. Next thing you know Herr Schwarzesel will
"define" pornograpy according to how Streicher "defined" it! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca Thu Sep  5 17:26:40 PDT 1996
Article: 62715 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!rajiv_gandhi
From: rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:24:53 -0800
Organization: The Celyddon Forest
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
References:  <50m0sv$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vctam01-95.bctel.ca
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13

In article <50m0sv$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

> >  > >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
> >  > >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
> >  > >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
> >  > >magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
> >  > 
> >  > 
> >  > No, Mr. Belling. YOU are trying to define the definition of pornograpy
> >  > in terms of Larry Flint or Al Goldstein. The definition has been given
> >  > to you. You just don't wish to accept it.
> >  
> >  Hero worship, obviously. Next thing you know Herr Schwarzesel will
> >  "define" pornograpy according to how Streicher "defined" it! 

[snip]

> What are you implying?

I think he is implying that you LIKE TO PREVARICATE. That you are a fraud.
That you are a liar. By the way, since you have conclusively been shown to
be both jbelling@sprynet and rblackmore@juno, would you care to answer the
question as to why you continue to post under two different names. I'd
also like to know if baddab is a concoction of yours. 

While you're at it:

In a recent e-mail, which was later posted to the Usenet you made the
following claim:

"What do you say to the fact that many Jewish publications also quoted
this 4,000,000 figure for YEARS until the research made primarily by
revisionist scholars embarrassed the hell out of them.  Why did the Simon
Wiesenthal Center keep silent on this figure until recently?  Could MONEY
have anything to do with it?"

I would like you to answer the following without prevarication:

(1) why you made a baseless accusation as documented above regarding the SWC
(2) where is your proof for the following:
   (a) that the SWC  promoted the figure of 4 million knowing it was wrong
   (b) that this was done for money
(3) when you can't provide that proof revist part 1 and supply the truth

You will note, for the record, that I will continue to ask this question
of you until I get a straight answer.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep  5 17:26:42 PDT 1996
Article: 62719 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Streicher vs. Ehrenburg, Round 1?
Date: 5 Sep 1996 03:25:50 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <50lh7u$k36@juliana.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

In reference to the on-going Streicher-PORNOGRAPHER posts, 
a number of articles written by Streicher were posted by the
Nizkor people.  These articles, while not proving Streicher to be
either a purveyor of pornography nor a murderer. lent positive 
credence to what is already generally known; namely, that 
Streicher was an incorrigible anti-Semite obsessed with the Jews
and their alleged influence throughout the world.  The writings 
quoted contained very harsh references to the Jewish people and
depicted in the various contexts that a war of extermination was
being fought between the powers of light (Germany and her allies), 
and the powers of darkness (The "Jews" and their allies), according
to Streicher.  The implication made by these postings seemed to be
that Streicher deserved the death penalty by what he had written. 
With this idea in mind, I now post some of the public exhortations of
the Soviet propaganda master, Ilya Ehrenburg, and his published
comments about German people.  Take note that the following was 
written during the same time period as Streicher's "Stuermer.

His articles and broadcasts to Soviet citizens and troops referred to the
Germans in the following terms:

"Pest-carrying rats", "berserk wolves", "Cannibals", "two-legged beasts",
"Monsters", "wild beasts", "aryan beasts", "murdering scorpions", 'rats",
"pillaging beasts", "lousy curs".  

Further exhortations include:  "We intend to simply exterminate them. (The  Germans)
It has fallen upon us, to fulfill this humanitarian mission.  We are simply
continuing the work of Pasteur, who discovered the Serum against
rabies. We are continuing the work of all scientific researchers, who
discovered the means of exterminating deadly microbes..."...and finally,
"kill all Germans".  

(Vorsicht, Faelschung, pg. 95, 398, FZ-Verlag, Munich, 1994)

Unlike Streicher, whose newspaper only reached some 400,000 subscribers
in a nation of 80 million, (Mainly near-approaching geriatric cases like himself),
Ehrenburg's hate-filled exhortations to murder reached millions-where it would 
have the greatest effect-the Soviet armed forces.  And we all know how 
chivalrously the Soviet Army treated the German population in their "drang nach
Westen"!  If there is any disagreement over the facts, I will be more than happy
to post them.

So here are the two fanatics-Streicher, the German Nazi, and Ehrenburg, the
 Soviet Jew .  TheGerman is hanged and Ehrenburg is honored.  Sounds like
 a double-standard to me.
You can't have it both ways, folks.  Well, you can, but it doesn't look so good.




From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Sep  5 17:26:45 PDT 1996
Article: 62728 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:38:19 -0800
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In article <50lmpa$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >  > >  
> >  >Mike Curtis writes:
> >  
> >  Herr Schwarzesel, you are neither humble nor do you have "opinions." What
> >  you _do_ have is the proclivity for Nazi hero worship (e.g. Streicher) and
> >  apologia (i.e. ranting against Streicher's conviction for crimes against
> >  humanity.)  
> >  
> What you have is no evidence.

Really, Herr Schwarzesel? It is a easily verified fact that Streicher was
convicted (and executed) for crimes against humanity. Please do try and
keep up. 

> >  >
>  I found nothing pornographic in any of the quotes,
> 
>   But then you also seem to think _Screw_ is the "standard" for pornagraphy...
> 
> It's a good place to start..

It is a completely irrelevant "place to start," Herr Schwarzesel. The
social norms of the time, in regards to such matters, were different than
they are today. 

> >  > nor could I find any justification as to why Streicher was killed. I 
> >  > posted my reasons why.
> >  
> >  Then, Herr Schwarzesel, you are blind as well as stupid. The reasons for
> >  Streicher's conviction for crimes against humanity was laid out in black
> >  and white in the IMT's judgement against Streicher. Any poerson with a
> >  modicum of intelligence and integrity can easily understand this. But, of
> >  course, you are neither intelligent, nor possess any integrity....
> >  
> Now, Mark, let's review the "evidence" you have posted as a reply to my
> request:  
> 
> 1.  I am a "Nazi".
> 2.  I am a "Schwarzesel".
> 3.  I am "blind".
> 4.  I am "stupid".
> 5.  I am devoid of intelligence and integrity..

Indeed you are, Herr Schwarzesel. However, you, being the morally
insalubrious person you are, seem to have "forgotten" one of my first
posts regarding Streicher and his _Der Stu"rmer_. It can be found at: 

http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3cmvanalst-3008960158220001@rbi144.rbi.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3&CONTEXT=841679560.25626&hitnum=0

> Gosh, you're starting to sound more and more like Ilya Ehrenburg every day.

And you, Herr Schwarzesel, are sounding like a hero worshipping Nazi
apologist, which is to be expected, as you _are_ a hero worshipping Nazi
apologist. 

> Well, now it's "Schwartzesel".  For those who do not know, this means
"black jack-ass".

Very good, Herr Schwarzesel. Indeed you _are_ an ass. A very pompus ass. 

> And, yes, I do think "Screw" magazine is a good example of pornography,
perhaps you think otherwise?  

Actually, Herr Schwartzesel, I think _Der Stu'rmer_ was an excellent
example of pornography for the period. It was also an excellent example of
obscenities, incitements to violence against- and mass murder of -Jews.
Which, when considering that Streicher contiunued publishing such
incitements while knowing of the genocide of the Jews, is one of the main
factors that led to his conviction and execution. 

> Thank you for your enlightened response to my request for documentary proof.  
> Let the reader draw his or her own conslusions about how you filled the 
> request.

Indeed, Herr Schwartzesel. I gladly defer judgement on your lack of
integrity and intelligence to the reader. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From schwartz@infinet.com Thu Sep  5 23:11:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62790 of alt.revisionism
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From: schwartz@infinet.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher and the Big Lie Technique
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:58:55 -0400
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Mr. "Stele"
 
You are a very sick man.
 
This fascination you have with Streicher and pornography... when did it
begin? Have you always had this fixation?In article
<50kpe7$4i2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:


> Julius Streicher was a pornographer, so the Holocausters tell us.
 
What is a "Holocauster"? Is it another word for "historian" perhaps?
Because it is the HISTORIANS who call Streicher a pornographer.
 
And the proof is in his own paper, _Der Stuermer_.
 
But you knew that.

> 
> Once again, the holocausters make wild slanderous allegations they cannot
> verify. 
> 
If by "holocausters" you are referring to people like me, there's no
"allegation" to prove. Facts are facts. Streicher was a virulent
pornographer. That is a fact. The verification is in _Der Sterumer_.


> Is not the entire Holohoax merely one elaborate unsubstantiated slander,
> in the same vein?  An unsubstantiated slanderous hoax.
> 
Wow... that's QUITE a leap there, Mr. "Stele." because YOU don't agree
with the characterization of Streicher by virtually ALL historians, that
means that the entire Holocaust never happened? Fascinating.
 
By the way, please define "proof" as it will satisfy you. Because from
where I sit, there are piles and piles of proof.

> It is indeed ironic, not to mention hypocritical, to see jews denounce
> Streicher for being a pornographer.  Jews dominate the porno industry as
> they do every other aspect of the motion picture industry.  They are
> especially thick in the porno industry though.
> 

Please provide "substantiation" for this statement. Please provide proof
that Jews dominate the pornography industry. Let's start with Carter
Stevens. He's not Jewish. Neither is Hugh Hefner. Neither is Julia Parton,
who publishes "High Society." Neither is Bob Guccione, who publishes
Penthouse.
 
So. Your statement is an unsubstantiated hoax. Now, if what's good for the
goose applies, I should assume that EVERYTHING YOU say is unsubstantiated
trolling, right?

> Where is the proof Streicher was a pornographer in the way jewish
> pornographers are?  
 
Where is the proof of the "Jewish" pornographers? The proof of Streicher
is in his _Stuermer_.
> [snip]

> Streicher wasn't hung because he was a pornographer.  He was hung for the
> same reason Rosenberg was hung:  for his ideas.  
> 
 
let's try this once again, Mr. "Stele," since you've been told at ;east
three times and haven't gotten it yet: STREICHER WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH
FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. NOT IDEAS.

So again, an unsubstantiated fabrication.

[snip]
> That is why the holocausters have made it a crime to question the
> Holocaust in Germany:  they don't want people to be allowed to question or
> discuss the patent absurdities of the Holohoax theory.  They are trying to
> enforce their orthodoxy as Holy Writ.  
> 

Errr... excuse me, Mr. "Stele," but the GERMANS decide what is criminal in
Germany. And most Germans KNOW that the Holocaust happened.

> The jewish holocausters are the real and proto-thought police.  They are
> the holonazi.  They're playing a dangerous game, though.  Whenever free
> inquiry is suppressed and oppressed by tyrants like the jewish
> holocausters, there is always a bottlenecking of resistance which builds
> up. 

Suppressed? You mean like the way YOU are suppressed here? Giwer? Moran?
As far as *I* can see, there's no suppression of your spew here. 

[Mr. "Stele's" "holonazi" remarks snipped.]
 
Holonazi. Is that another one of the names that deniers don't call?
 
You need help, Mr. "Stele." Please, get it before it's too late.
 
Sara
 
Posted and e-mailed.

-- 
"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
    Edith Sitwell


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62795 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 19:50:51 -0800
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In article <50lo7t$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

> Let's try Robert Wistrich's definition of the word, as it relates to
Streicher:
> 
> "This weekly newspaper (The Stuermer) was notorious on account of it's 
> coarse carricatures, it's repulsive photos of Jews, it's histories of 
> Ritual Murder, it's pornographic elements, and it's rude style."  
> (Who was who in the Third Reich, 1983 edition)  Npw, Mr. Mark Webster, 
> what do  you suppose he means by "pornographic elements?  

Uh, that elements of _Der Stu"rmer_ were _pornographic_? Duh.

All of which, considering that _Der Stu"rmer_  was Streicher's paper, and
that he exercised editorial control of it, would mean that Streicher was a
pornographer as well as "Jew-Baiter Number 1" for his incitements to
violence against, and the genocide of, the Jews. Thanks for the
(unwitting) confirmation, Herr Schwarzesel. 

> Shall I supply you with more examples? I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Oh, _please_ do, Herr Schwarzesel! It amuses me to no end to have you
place the noose, metaphorically speaking, around your own neck. 

> It is YOUR definition which has been given to me, because you find dealing 
> with the truth can be uncomfortable.  

And what is _my_ definition of pornography, Herr Schwarzesel? 

> Do you seriously believe you are impressing people with your tactics of 
> name-calling and abuse?  

Yes. It is always refreshing to properly label hate mongers and Nazi
apologists and hero worhippers for what they are. 

> >  Hero worship, obviously. Next thing you know Herr Schwarzesel will
> >  "define" pornograpy according to how Streicher "defined" it! 
> 
> Who thought up that clever little nickname of Schwarzesel?  Don Rickles?

Nope. Jes' little ol' me, Herr Schwarzesel. 

> Thank you for your kind remarks.  

My pleasure, Herr Schwarzesel. That you consider being labelled a Nazi
apologist and hero worshipper a kindness simply further evidences that you
are, in fact, such. 

> Not only have you lost this argument, but you appear to have lost your
mind as 
> well.

Far from it, Herr Schwarzesel. You see, I and others  have given you
evidence that not only was Streicher a war criminal for his anti-Semitic
incitements to violence and death against Jews, but a pornographer as
well. 

That you, in your Nazi fantasy world, cannot deal with these facts, and
thus dismiss them out of hand, is hardly evidence that _I_ (or others) 
have "lost this argument" or mind. Just the oppiste it would seem....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:26 PDT 1996
Article: 62797 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Julius Streicher and the Big Lie Technique
Date: 4 Sep 1996 16:39:35 -0400
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Yes, Chuck - Streicher was one revolting swine indeed. I recall 
>that one short entry in Goebbels' early diary reads "... and then 
>Streicher spoke. Like a pig". Can you imagine someone so revolting
>so as to make Goebbels, himself an arch-swine, to refer to him as 
>a "pig"?

>I wonder if the last sound he made, when dangling from the
>rope, was a little pig squeal.


>-Danny Keren.

Julius Streicher was a pornographer, so the Holocausters tell us.

Once again, the holocausters make wild slanderous allegations they cannot
verify. 

Is not the entire Holohoax merely one elaborate unsubstantiated slander,
in the same vein?  An unsubstantiated slanderous hoax.

It is indeed ironic, not to mention hypocritical, to see jews denounce
Streicher for being a pornographer.  Jews dominate the porno industry as
they do every other aspect of the motion picture industry.  They are
especially thick in the porno industry though.

Where is the proof Streicher was a pornographer in the way jewish
pornographers are?  

But you know what a famous man once said about the Proponents of the big
Lie Technique: "they" always blame others falsely for the very things they
do actually.

Streicher wasn't hung because he was a pornographer.  He was hung for the
same reason Rosenberg was hung:  for his ideas.  

That is the sort of people the holocausters are:  they want to punish
people for their ideas.  Orwell called it "thoughtcrime." In the dark ages
they called it "heresy."  

That is why the holocausters have made it a crime to question the
Holocaust in Germany:  they don't want people to be allowed to question or
discuss the patent absurdities of the Holohoax theory.  They are trying to
enforce their orthodoxy as Holy Writ.  

The jewish holocausters are the real and proto-thought police.  They are
the holonazi.  They're playing a dangerous game, though.  Whenever free
inquiry is suppressed and oppressed by tyrants like the jewish
holocausters, there is always a bottlenecking of resistance which builds
up. 

Good luck dealing with it, holonazi.  I can't wait until it builds to the
breaking point. There are rumblings here and there.  The foundation
creaks, the superstructure shifts.  

I can't wait.

Kurt Stele


From gmcfee@ibm.net Fri Sep  6 07:22:28 PDT 1996
Article: 62798 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:22:08 GMT
Lines: 28
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References: <509l7q$5r@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <50ejbk$190@juliana.sprynet.com> <50jlqu$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE><509l7q$5r@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <50ejbk$190@juliana.sprynet.com> <50jlqu$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> 
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In message  -
schwartz@infinet.com writes:
:>
:>In article <50jlqu$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
:>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:
:>
:>> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
:>> >Hopefully I will explain this so even you may understand.  What I said
:>> [...]
:>> 
:>> Ah, something I forgot: when you read "pornographer", please try to understand
:>> that we are talking about the 30s and 40s and that you should not expect
:>> what you will find in the net nowadays.
:>
:>An EXCELLENT point, Nele.
:> 
:>In the 30s and 40s, pictures of Bettie Page in her underwear were
:>considered absolutely obscene and extremely pornographic. Now they're put
:>into calendars and sold in comic books stores.

I would only add that the pictures and descriptions from _Der Stuermer_ would
certainly be considered as pornographic by those standards.


--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:33 PDT 1996
Article: 62820 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 5 Sep 1996 09:01:56 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >>   Nele Abels  writes:
>  >>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  >>  >It seems as though everytime I read something regarding Julius >Streicher, he is invariably referred to 
as a "pornographer".  
>  >
>  
>  >  What I said
>  > was "Whenever I read anything about Julius Streicher, he is referred
>  > to as a pornographer.
>  
>  And you dismiss this despite the fact that most of those around him
>  considered his work pornography. 
>  
>  And many of his friends saw him that way.
>  
>  We have. Now I can type out the other page that concerns more of his
>  perversions. It seems you missed the lengthy post that concerns his
>  public and private sexual fascinations. Are you so blind?
>  
>  >  It is quite clear to me that the prosecution at Nuremberg
>  >used the albumen article to prove that this was a form of profligacy or porn-
>  >ography, along with an article about a Jewish doctor seducing an Aryan girl.
>  >
>  
>  I think that there was a lengthy post describing the case against him
>  at Nuremberg and it seems you have chosen to ignore it, Mr. Belling.
>  None of the lurkers here missed it. what happened to you?
>  
> 
>  
>>>>
I have to confess to you that I am not in the least bit interested in Streicher's
sex life.  I don't care what other people thought about him; whether they loved
him or whether they despised him; the only thing that I am concerned with is how do
any of these writings and opinions of his justify the imposition of the death penalty?

For a refreshing breath of fresh air, visit:  http://www.codoh.com/


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:34 PDT 1996
Article: 62824 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 6 Sep 1996 06:46:28 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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Message-ID: <50ohc4$rhh@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

Curtis vs Blackmore:
 
>  > What you have is no evidence, and the IMT's "evidence" was ridiculous.
>  nor could I find any justification as to why Streicher was killed. I 
> posted my reasons why.
>  > >  
 Schwarzesel, you are blind as well as stupid.
 you are neither intelligent, nor possess any integrity....
>  > >  
>  > Now, Mark, let's review the "evidence" you have posted as a reply to my
>  > request:  
>  > 
>  > 1.  I am a "Nazi".
>  > 2.  I am a "Schwarzesel".
>  > 3.  I am "blind".
>  > 4.  I am "stupid".
>  > 5.  I am devoid of intelligence and integrity..
>  
>  > Gosh, you're starting to sound more and more like Ilya Ehrenburg every day.
>  Curtis:
> you _are_ an ass. A very pompus ass. 
>  
>   I do think "Screw" magazine is a good example of pornography,
>  perhaps you think otherwise?  
>  
>  Actually, Herr Schwartzesel, I think _Der Stu'rmer_ was an excellent
>  example of pornography for the period.

So, Mr. Curtis, pornography is a capital offense.  Again, you offered
 nothing written by Streicher which could compare to the filth
 published in Screw magazine.

 It was also an excellent example of
>  obscenities, incitements to violence against- and mass murder of -Jews.

See my STREICHER-EHRENBURG Posr-You can't have it 2 ways.

>  Which, when considering that Streicher contiunued publishing such
>  incitements while knowing of the genocide of the Jews,

Provide documentation.

 is one of the main
>  factors that led to his conviction and execution.

His opinions and blind revenge are what led to his execution. 
 Thank you for your enlightened response to my request for documentary proof.  
 Let the reader draw his or her own conslusions about how you filled the 
 request.
>  
>  Indeed, Herr Schwartzesel. I gladly defer judgement on your lack of
>  integrity and intelligence to the reader.

And I, yours.....

rb
"The truth or not the truth, that is the question.  The truth and ALL the truth,
that is the answer."

For a breath of fresh air, see: http://codoh.com/ 


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:37 PDT 1996
Article: 62834 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 6 Sep 1996 07:38:39 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)


>  
>       So these quotes served to condemn Streicher to death?
>     
>        Inge sits in the Jew doctor's reception room.  She has to wait a
>        long time.  She looks through the magazines on the table.  But she
>        is much too nervous even to read a few sentences.  Again and again
>        she remembers her talk with her mother.  And again and again her
>        mind dwells on the warnings of her B D M leader: 'A German must
>        not consult a Jew doctor!  And particularly not a German girl!
>        Many a girl who has gone to a Jew doctor to be cured has found
>        disease and disgrace !' After entering the waiting-room, Inge had
>        an extraordinary experience.  From the doctor's consulting-room
>        she could hear the sound of crying.  She heard the voice of a
>        young girl: 'Doctor, doctor, leave me alone!' Then she heard a man
>        laughing scornfully.  And then all of a sudden, absolute silence.
>        Inge held her breath and listened.  'What can this mean ?' she
>        asked herself and her heart was pounding.  Once again she thought
>        of her B D M leader's warning.  Inge has now been waiting for an
>        hour.  She takes up the magazines again and tries to read.  The
>        door opens.  Inge looks up.  There stands the Jew.  She screams.
>        She's so frightened, she drops the magazine.  She jumps up in
>        terror.  Her eyes stare into the Jewish doctor's face.  His face
>        is the face of a devil.  In the middle of this devil's face is a
>        huge crooked nose.  Behind the spectacles two criminal eyes.  And
>        the thick lips are grinning.  A grin that says: 'Now I've got you
>        at last, little German girl !' The Jew approaches her.  His fleshy
>        fingers stretch out for her.  But now Inge has recovered her wits.
>        Before the Jew can grab hold of her, she slaps the Jew doctor's
>        fat face.  Then a jump to the door, and Inge runs breathlessly
>        down the stairs.  She escapes breathlessly from the Jew house...."
>        (Noakes, 468-470)

This is pornography?  Is this what Streicher was condemned to death for?
>By the way, I showed your documentation to a number of people, and most
of them thought the writings were hilarious...hardly anything to be put to death for..
Oh, well, that's life in the big city.  
  


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:40 PDT 1996
Article: 62850 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 6 Sep 1996 09:46:31 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <50ortn$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <50n748$bq7@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: hd62-195.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  : To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher:  I am not denying what he wrote...I 
>  : am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their
>  : opinions.  
>  
>  Try a little experiment, Mr. Blackmore.  You probably know somebody
>  who isn't terribly stable and who has an tense relationship with, say,
>  his mother.  Befriend this person.  Everytime you see him, tell him 
>  in the strongest possible terms that his mother is an agent of the 
>  devil, and is planning his death.  Tell him this over and over--
>  really try to convince him.  Make up lies about her that support
>  your argument.  After you've got him hooked in, start implying that the 
>  only way for him to save himself is to kill his mother before she kills 
>  him.  Really work on him. Suggest times and plans for killing her.
>  
>  When he does it, go to the police and tell them exactly what you did.
>  Tell them that it was all just your opinion.  See what happens.  
>  Report back.
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
No, we are talking about evidence.  Produce it or step down.


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:41 PDT 1996
Article: 62856 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 6 Sep 1996 09:28:49 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>  <  
>  I'm not much on putting porno on the newgroup, but I can track it down
>  if you want the trash posted. 

I think this is necessary.
>  
>   Belling retorts: You have not provided proof that Streicher published
>  pornography,
>  
>  I have to reply that I am amazed that he disbelieves the words of the
>  Germans and the Nazis in their descriptions of Steicher's stuff. It
>  was always pornographic, Mr. Belling, but it sometimes was. I did post
>  you an actual sample in another thread.
> 
It hardly qualifies as pornography, and do you think those quotes justify
putting a man to death?.
>  
>  
>  Belling:Show me court
>   records where he was convicted in a court of law for sex crimes,
>  
>  I must reply that I'm not the expert on Steicher as Mr. Belling seems
>  to be.
> 
OK.  For a response to all this, please refer to my post:  Ehrenburg vs Streicher
And yes, Mr. Curtis, I would like you to come up with the proof that Streicher was
a purveyor of pornography, and was charged and convicted in a German court.
That will settle the issue nicely, and I will stand condemned for my irresponsiblity.


. With knowledge of the
>  extermination of the Jews in occupied Eastern Territories, this
>  defendant continued to write and publish his propaganda of death . .

Now, this is what I am looking for!  Please provide incontrovertible proof that
Streicher KNEW that Jews were being exterminated or had the power to either
order it or prevent it.  Not too much to ask, is it?
>  


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:42 PDT 1996
Article: 62861 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 6 Sep 1996 10:09:37 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 22
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>   kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>  In article <50gv8b$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >Are you suggesting that Streicher fabricated all these accusations, or
>  >were they accusations directing against the Jews from various sources,
>  >courts, etc., over the years.  Even after Streicher's death, the blood accu-
>  >sation was leveled against the Jews in Kielce, Poland in 1946?, and Messina,
>  
>  I am suggesting that Streicher's writing fits comfortably
>  within the commonly accepted definition of pornography, which
>  is what we are discussing. We are not discussing his rabid
>  hatred of Jews, but how he wrote his newspaper.
>  
>  This is your opinion, not the implication of the authors I was
referring to.  >

>  If you want to deal with the man's trial, say so.
>  
That is what I have been trying to do for the past 22 posts.  Somehow you
people just don't seem to get the idea-maybe you are dense..Why can't you
jjust admit that the Streicher sentence was unjust?  Oh well, I suppose your
20 odd posts already testify to that fact.


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:44 PDT 1996
Article: 62862 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 6 Sep 1996 10:10:50 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >The following is a reply to Mr. McVay's poor attempt
>  >to provide evidence that Julius Streicher was a
>  >purveyor of Pornography.  For his response, see
>  >his posting as part of the thread under:
>  >Julius Streicher2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  >
>  >Are you suggesting that Streicher fabricated all these accusations, or
>  >were they accusations directing against the Jews from various sources,
>  >courts, etc., over the years.  Even after Streicher's death, the blood accu-
>  >sation was leveled against the Jews in Kielce, Poland in 1946?, and Messina,
>  >New York.  Streicher had nothing to do with these cases.  Aside from 
>  >deliberately changing the subject again, you have NOT provided evidence
>  >for my inquiry....You mean you don't have it?!?  PS..Now that you have posted
>  >]Streicher's propanganda, will you next post what Ilya Ehrenburg wrote concerning
>  >Germans?  Also, when Streicher's newspaper was at it's peak, the paper had 700,000
>  >subscribers, which dropped to 400,000 during the war.  By the way, some Jews can be
>  >recognized by their noses, as can Italians and Arabs...Where does any of the above
>  >]give the allies the right to execute this person?  You have much more violent statements
>  >being published on the internet and in other private publications right in this country.
>  >It is called the right to free speech, and is protected and guaranteed by the first
>  >amendment, just as the quotes you cited above.  Don't tell me that the Germans
>  >were not entitled to free speech.....No one should have their life taken away from
>  >them simply for exercising the basic human right of free speech.  
>  >
>  
>  I see you read it and now you are being dishonest about it. Pretty
>  sad.
>  
>  
>  
>

Mike-you're beyond sad.


From dkeren@world.std.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:44 PDT 1996
Article: 62863 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <50ohc4$rhh@juliana.sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:35:06 GMT
Lines: 37

rblackmore@juno.com writes:

# See my STREICHER-EHRENBURG Post-You can't have it 2 ways.

This is, in fact, a point worth responding to.

But first, it is important to understand: the questions 
of "what did Streicher and the Nazis do", and "did they
deserve to die for it", are very different problems.
Personally, I am not that much interested in the legal
points, that is, questions of the type "was it justified
to hang the Nazis for the crimes they committed, while
Bomber Harris was not punished?". What I'm interested in
is the documentation of Nazi crimes and the Nazi ideology
that led the Germans to commit these crimes.

So, I don't really care for the question "was it justified
to hang Streicher?". If I had to make the decision myself,
that would be a different matter; but the revolting swine
was hanged. Does it bother me? Not really.

Finally, on your "STREICHER-EHRENBURG" analogy: there's a
very basic flaw in it. Ehrenburg's propaganda was
indeed hateful and violent - and I don't like it - BUT,
he was referring to an enemy which attacked his country,
regarded its citizens as "sub-humans", and butchered numerous
innocents. 

Streicher, on the other hand, propagated hate against a
defenseless "enemy" which was guilty of no crime, and
openly called, again and again, to butcher and annihilate
this "enemy". If you can't see the difference, you're
really crazy.


-Danny Keren.



From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:47 PDT 1996
Article: 62873 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 6 Sep 1996 09:16:04 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 26
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>   Alexander Baron  writes:
>  In article <3229ef9c.2660182@news.inetport.com>
>  > >I specifically asked for proof of Streicher being a publisher of pornography 
>  > >by posting directly from his publications.   Give me quotes directly from "Der
>  >  Stuermer", 
>  
>  Der Stuermer was a very disreputable magazine; it was banned three or four times
>  under the Nazis. If he hadn't been a favourite of Hitler, Streicher would have ended
>  up in a concentration camp.
>  
Yes, I am aware of it's reputation or lack thereof, but it is not germane
to the issue.  Streicher didn't end up in a camp, but he was relieved of
his post as Gauleiter in 1940.  His friend Hitler didn't reinstate him.
>  
>  > "In Berlin, Nazi physicians used a  particularly repellent combination
>  > of anti-semitism and pornography worthy of Der Stuermer to bring about
>  > the removal of their Jewish 'colleagues' and competitors. 
>  
>  This sounds less like anti-Semitism than pragmatism.
>  
>  -- 
>  "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>  the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
>  
>>>>



From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Sep  6 07:22:51 PDT 1996
Article: 62900 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 04:25:19 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <50ompn$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@sprynet.com wrote:

[snip]

> So much for Van Alstine's documentation...However, I asked for proof of
Streicher's pornography, not yours.  However, you disputed that request,
so I will now restate it:
> 
> Will you provide the direct evidence from Streicher's own publications
to prove to the readers that he was a purveyor of pornography in a sexual
sense?

That was not your origional criteria, Herr Schwarzesel. Moving the goals
posts, are we? Tsk tsk. That's a sure sign of backpedaling, Herr
Schwarzesel.  Irregardless, I have dealt with this issue already. It is
not my problem if you are too diseased in the head to comprehend it. 

> >You also disputed the fact that I have read the entire proceedings of the 
>IMT's Case against Streicher, so, I will repeat: I read it.  Want me to 
>quote from the text?  

Yes. 

...tell me what page and paragraph.

The entire document. 

> You see, I can always call your bluff....try me.

I just did. 

>  You failed to provide proof of Streicher 
>  publishing pornography-and when I say pornography, I mean the likes
>  of Al  Goldstein's Screw magazine.  That is how I define pornography. 

And I repeat, Herr Schwarzesel, I could care less about _your_ definition
of pornography. 

[snip]

> I have already posted the fact that this is how Shirer and Wistrich and
Snyder > define it when they write of Streicher.

Herr Schwarzesel, in  article <50lo7t$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com> did you not
write that Wistrich wrote of Streicher:

"This weekly newspaper (The Stuermer) was notorious on account of it's coarse 
carricatures, it's repulsive photos of Jews, it's histories of Ritual
Murder, it's pornographic elements, and it's rude style...." 

That is the _only_ reference to Wistrich by you in DejaNews I can find. No
where is _Screw_ mentioned. However, Wistrich _does_ write that _Der
Stu"rmer_ has "pornographic elements." Given that Streicher owned and
exercised editorial control of _Der Stu"rmer_ this would make him a
pornographer by definition. 

> >  > >  > Much worse is published every day in the United States, and is
> >  protected > >  > by the first amendment. 
> >  
> >  Oops, seems like you left out part of my comment, Herr Schwarzesel! Now
> >  why would that be? Perhaps it is due to your scurrilous character? 
> 
> Perhaps it is due to the insignificant drivel you wrote?

More like your cowardice and propensity to run away like a whipped dog. 

[snip]

> What is so significant about that?  Were we executing publishers of 
> pornography 50 years ago?

No, "we" were executing convicted war criminals. Like Streicher. 

[snip]

> >  Herr Schwarzesel, Streicher was tried, convicted, and executed for crimes
> >  against humanity.
> 
> Good.  Now we're getting somewhere.  Will you post those "crimes against
humanity" for the benefit of the readers?  

Been there done that, Herr Schwarzesel. Do try to keep up with the program. 

[snip]

> I am neither, nor will I be a lackey to you...

Indeed not! I wouldn't let you lick my boots if you _paid_ me. They'd
probably rot or something. 

Bit as to you being a lackey, you most certainly are a Nazi lackey. Only a
Nazi lackey (or a terribly _stupid_ person) would invest so much of so
_little_  a brain defending a piece of excrement like Streicher. (Nazi
hero worship often causes Nazi-wannbes to do odd things....) 

>  By the way, I read the entire proceedings against
>  Streicher at  Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was
>  absolutely no justification for his  execution, aside
>  from the fact that he disliked Jews. 
> >  
> >  Herr Schwarzesel, it is pathetic apologistic proclamations such as this
> >  that confirmIf you _had_ read and _comprehended_ the IMT proceeding and 
> >  jusdgement against Streicher you would be making such an ass of yourself. 
> 
> I read it, I understand it, and it does not warrant the imposition of
the death penalty.

Of course, it did. 

> Even your Daniel Keren admitted he would probably not have voted for the death
> penalty.  

Dr. Keren is a kind and forgiving humanitarian. 

> >  > By the  way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith
> >  happens > to agree that the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  
> >  
> >  Herr Schwarzesel, did you know that Mr. Smith is neither emminent nor a
> >  historian? And that his opinions regarding the IMT judgement of Streicher
> >  are are nothing more than the absurd bleatings of a Holocaust denier? 
> >  
> Herr Quatschmeister, you have finally displayed your true ignorance, for
all the world to see.  I was not referring to Bradley Smith, the
revisionist.  I was referring to Bradley F. Smith, author of "Reaching
Judgment at Nuremberg".  Nothing like the taste of your own foot in your
mouth, eh, Quatschmeister?

Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel. An understandable one, I would think,
considering you're a little Nazi cheerleader for C.O.D.O.H. It rather easy
to overlook the "F." when one is dealing with a denier who plug C.O.D.O.H
and who mentions "Bradley Smith." 

[snip]

> >  Never fear, Herr Schwarzesel, I fully intend to. It amuses me to now end
> >  to frustrate pathetic little Nazis-wannbes, such as yourself, in their
> >  promulgating Nazi apologia and propaganda. And to watch them turn
> >  apoplectic in their impotence when they are so frustrated. 
> 
> I am not in the least bit frustrated, nor am I apopletic. 

Really? You write like you are. 

> Read your own rantings for evidence of that.

And you read like you are. Actually, Herr Schwarzesel, I'm  having a
wonderful time pulling your chain. 

> >  > ...in a few years we might even present you with an award for rendering 
> >  > services to the cause of historical revisionism.
> >  
> >  Words to remember, Herr Schwarzesel. I'll be sure to remind you of them
> >  when you are presented with your crow pie.
> 
> >   Not in your lifetime.

Oh, I'd say otherwise, Herr Schwarzesel. Unless of ,course, you are now
into making death threats becuase you keep getting your ears boxed? Such a
poor sport. Tsk tsk. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Fri Sep  6 07:22:57 PDT 1996
Article: 62924 of alt.revisionism
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 20:50:31 GMT
Organization: InFoText Manuscripts
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Message-ID: <841956631snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <50jfda$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com> rblackmore@juno.com  writes:

> .  I am not arguing whether Der Stuermer was filled
> with anti-Jewish verbiage.  This is a common fact.  I am asking for proof that
> Streicher printed pornography in a sexual sense, as is claimed by practically
> all of his detractors.  That is all I am asking:  Give us selections which prove> what he published was pornographic in a sexual sense, or admit that his 
> detractors have lied and published false and slanderous accusations.

I don't think he did print porn in the modern sense; I think when the 
Exterminationist lobby refer to porn they mean lewd stuff or sexually
suggestive (ie Rassenschande). In a broad sense that is porn. According to
Professor Butz, Streicher once claimed in Stuermer that Goerring's daughter
had been fathered by artificial insemination. Most people would consider that
claim pornographic in a certain context.

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 10:59:14 PDT 1996
Article: 62939 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 6 Sep 1996 06:54:48 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>  In article <50jgak$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >>  Oh, honestly, rblackmore (or whatever your name is).  It's so easy to
>  >>  look up information on Julius Streicher even my 7-yr-old daughter could
>  >>  do it.  Why waste bandwidth on this type of malarkey.  Are you seriously
>  >>  trying to defend Streicher in any way, shape or form?
>  
>  >I am saying he did not deserve to be executed for publishing nonsense.
>  
>  Thank you for defining his writing as nonsense. Now perhaps
>  you will provide a copy of the indictment, and demonstrate he
>  was hung for "writing nonsense." You'll find it in NCA Vol.
II.

Read it.  Been there.  It doesn't justify the imposition of the death
penalty.  Neither does your nonsense.

rb
For a breath of fresh air, visit:  http://www.codoh.com/
>  
>>>>



From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Fri Sep  6 10:59:17 PDT 1996
Article: 62950 of alt.revisionism
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 17:58:17 GMT
Organization: InFoText Manuscripts
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In article <50jgsh$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com> rblackmore@juno.com  writes:

Try replacing the word Jews with white race in speeches like this.

> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >  Streicher? A truly revolting pig he was, and he finished at the end
> >  of a sturdy rope.
> >  
> >  Which will probably make him a martyr someday.
> >  -----------------------------------------------------------
> >  p. 4:
> >  [Speech by Julius Streicher, September 5 1937, reported in the
> >  Fraenkische Tageszeitung]
> >  
> >  Full and final victory will have
> >  been achieved only when the whole world has been rid of the Jews.
> >  
> >  p. 7: He who helps to bring this about helps to eliminate the devil.
> >  And this devil is the Jew.
> > : Expulsion or extermination! Both methods have been
> >  tried in the course of the centuries, but they were never carried
> >  to a conclusion...
> 
> And of course Streicher was in a position to give orders to execute Jews..you
> can provide that documentation for us, can't you?
> 
> > , that in this war not the
> >  Aryan race will be destroyed, but the Jew will be exterminated.
>  
> >  -Danny Keren.
> >    
> >>>>
> Mr. Keren-I don't know why, but I expected more from you.  Are you suggesting,
> as apparently you are-that Streicher deserved death simply because of what he
> wrote as quoted above, or similar statements?  If so, then you give the
>  impression
> of being  sicker than Streicher.
> 
> 

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy


From brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu Fri Sep  6 10:59:18 PDT 1996
Article: 62954 of alt.revisionism
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From: Brian Harmon 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 03:20:11 -0700
Organization: Univ. Of California, San Francisco
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> >   Brian Harmon  writes:
> >  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  >
> >  > Isn't it a fact that a group of rabbinical students
> >  > attempted to assassinate Spinoza by stabbing
> >  > him in the back, simply because of his beliefs
> >  > and what he wrote?
> >
> >  Who cares?  I thought we were discussing
> >   holocaust revisionism.
[snip]

> Give me a break.  

No, i won't.

> I don't give a damn aboout the nasty jooos, as you
> put it.  

Then why make a post about 'rabbinical students' attempting
 to kill Spinoza because of his beliefs?

Are you trying to make a statement about Jews? if not, why did
 you bother making about about them being rabbinical students?

> Next time you
> decide to jump in on a debate, research it first.

How ironic.

Brian Harmon
==========================
brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu


From libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu Fri Sep  6 10:59:21 PDT 1996
Article: 62969 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 5 Sep 1996 18:45:28 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:




: To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher:  I am not denying what he wrote...I 
: am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their
: opinions.  

Try a little experiment, Mr. Blackmore.  You probably know somebody
who isn't terribly stable and who has an tense relationship with, say,
his mother.  Befriend this person.  Everytime you see him, tell him 
in the strongest possible terms that his mother is an agent of the 
devil, and is planning his death.  Tell him this over and over--
really try to convince him.  Make up lies about her that support
your argument.  After you've got him hooked in, start implying that the 
only way for him to save himself is to kill his mother before she kills 
him.  Really work on him. Suggest times and plans for killing her.

When he does it, go to the police and tell them exactly what you did.
Tell them that it was all just your opinion.  See what happens.  
Report back.

Bill


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 10:59:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62974 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 6 Sep 1996 10:49:09 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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> 
To Mark Van Alstine, from rblackmore:
>  > By the  way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith
>  happens > to agree that the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  
>  
>  Herr Schwarzesel, did you know that Mr. Smith is neither emminent nor a
>  historian? And that his opinions regarding the IMT judgement of Streicher
>  are are nothing more than the absurd bleatings of a Holocaust denier? 
>  
>  > You have failed to provide the proof I requested, and by your violent and 
>  > childish outbursts have now branded yourself as a frustrated fool in the eyes 
>  > of many people who visit this web-site and follow these threads.  
>  
>  On the contrary, Herr Schwarzesel, I have readily provided the relevent
>  passages from various texts refutes your idiotic claims regarding
>  Sreicher. That and to evidence that you are an obfuscating and pompus ass
>  as well as a Nazi apologist. 
>  
>  > Keep up the good work.....
>  
>  Never fear, Herr Schwarzesel, I fully intend to. It amuses me to now end
>  to frustrate pathetic little Nazis-wannbes, such as yourself, in their
>  promulgating Nazi apologia and propaganda. And to watch them turn
>  apoplectic in their impotence when they are so frustrated. 
>  
>  > ...in a few years we might even present you with an award for rendering 
>  > services to the cause of historical revisionism.
>  
>  Words to remember, Herr Schwarzesel. I'll be sure to remind you of them
>  when you are presented with your crow pie.
>  
>  Mark
>  
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>  not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>  right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>  
>  -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
>>>>
In reference to the on-going Streicher-PORNOGRAPHER posts, 
a number of articles written by Streicher were posted by the
Nizkor people.  These articles, while not proving Streicher to be
either a purveyor of pornography nor a murderer. lent positive 
credence to what is already generally known; namely, that 
Streicher was an incorrigible anti-Semite obsessed with the Jews
and their alleged influence throughout the world.  The writings 
quoted contained very harsh references to the Jewish people and
depicted in the various contexts that a war of extermination was
being fought between the powers of light (Germany and her allies), 
and the powers of darkness (The "Jews" and their allies), according
to Streicher.  The implication made by these postings seemed to be
that Streicher deserved the death penalty by what he had written. 
With this idea in mind, I now post some of the public exhortations of
the Soviet propaganda master, Ilya Ehrenburg, and his published
comments about German people.  Take note that the following was 
written during the same time period as Streicher's "Stuermer.

His articles and broadcasts to Soviet citizens and troops referred to the
Germans in the following terms:

"Pest-carrying rats", "berserk wolves", "Cannibals", "two-legged beasts",
"Monsters", "wild beasts", "aryan beasts", "murdering scorpions", 'rats",
"pillaging beasts", "lousy curs".  

Further exhortations include:  "We intend to simply exterminate them. (The  Germans)
It has fallen upon us, to fulfill this humanitarian mission.  We are simply
continuing the work of Pasteur, who discovered the Serum against
rabies. We are continuing the work of all scientific researchers, who
discovered the means of exterminating deadly microbes..."...and finally,
"kill all Germans".  

(Vorsicht, Faelschung, pg. 95, 398, FZ-Verlag, Munich, 1994)

Unlike Streicher, whose newspaper only reached some 400,000 subscribers
in a nation of 80 million, (Mainly near-approaching geriatric cases like himself),
Ehrenburg's hate-filled exhortations to murder reached millions-where it would 
have the greatest effect-the Soviet armed forces.  And we all know how 
chivalrously the Soviet Army treated the German population in their "drang nach
Westen"!  If there is any disagreement over the facts, I will be more than happy
to post them.

So here are the two fanatics-Streicher, the German Nazi, and Ehrenburg, the
 Soviet Jew .  TheGerman is hanged and Ehrenburg is honored.  Sounds like
 a double-standard to me.
You can't have it both ways, folks.  Well, you can, but it doesn't look so good.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep  6 11:28:05 PDT 1996
Article: 62978 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:33:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 5 Sep 1996 18:45:28 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
anderson) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>


>: To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher:  I am not denying what he wrote...I 
>: am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their
>: opinions.  

>Try a little experiment, Mr. Blackmore.  You probably know somebody
>who isn't terribly stable and who has an tense relationship with, say,
>his mother.  Befriend this person.  Everytime you see him, tell him 
>in the strongest possible terms that his mother is an agent of the 
>devil, and is planning his death.  Tell him this over and over--
>really try to convince him.  Make up lies about her that support
>your argument.  After you've got him hooked in, start implying that the 
>only way for him to save himself is to kill his mother before she kills 
>him.  Really work on him. Suggest times and plans for killing her.

>When he does it, go to the police and tell them exactly what you did.
>Tell them that it was all just your opinion.  See what happens.  
>Report back.

	Read what Steicher wrote.  Measure the size of your erection.  Report
upon its pornographic nature.  

	It may be a lot of things but it is not pornography ...

	unless ...

	my early speculation that all forms of expression of death, violence,
blood and the like are a perverted turn-on to holohuggers and that is
why they wax rhapsodic when discussing the way people died.  

	That is the only explanation for considering such writings
pornographic, exciting a purient interest.  

	Holohuggers are very strange people.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 11:28:07 PDT 1996
Article: 62981 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 6 Sep 1996 06:50:14 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <50lmpa$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  [snip]
>   
>  
>  But either you knew that, Herr Schwartzesel and lack the integrity to
>  acknowledge th reasons for the IMT's judgement, or you are quite stupip
>  and lack the intelligence to comprehend the meaning of the IMT's
>  judgement

Oh, I understand it quite well-it is called blind revenge.
. 
> , I think you are _both_ stupid and craven.

>  > Thank you for your enlightened response to my request for documentary proof.  
>  > Let the reader draw his or her own conslusions about how you filled the 
>  > request.
> 
>  
>>>>
Where have I read this tripe before?
rb


From rblackmore@sprynet.com Fri Sep  6 12:05:05 PDT 1996
Article: 62983 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 6 Sep 1996 08:19:03 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>Below is a continuing dialogue between Mark van Alstine and rblackmore.
As a response to my request for documentation, Mr. Van Alstine responded with
the following citations:
   
" Herr Schwarzesel drooled:"
"  Please focus your (meager) intellect"   
" My  expectations were simply confirmed by your ignorance -and arrogance."
"  How can one possibly conceded "defeat," Herr Schwarzesel, when you are
 sitting in the "corner" with your head up your ass and drooling?" 
" you are simply blowing smoke out your butt." 
" you are an obfuscating and pompus ass
  as well as a Nazi apologist. "

So much for Van Alstine's documentation...However, I asked for proof of Streicher's
pornography, not yours.  However, you disputed that request, so I will now restate it:

Will you provide the direct evidence from Streicher's own publications to prove
to the readers that he was a purveyor of pornography in a sexual sense?
>  
>You also disputed the fact that I have read the entire proceedings of the IMT's
Case against Streicher, so, I will repeat:
I read it.  Want me to quote from the text?  tell me what page and paragraph.
You see, I can always call your bluff....try me.

 You failed to provide proof of Streicher 
 publishing pornography-and when I say pornography, I mean the likes
 of Al  Goldstein's Screw magazine.  That is how I define pornography. 

  Again, I could care less how _you_ define pornography, Herr Schwarzmehr.

I have already posted the fact that this is how Shirer and Wistrich and Snyder define
it when they write of Streicher.

>  > >  > Much worse is published every day in the United States, and is
>  protected > >  > by the first amendment. 
>  
>  Oops, seems like you left out part of my comment, Herr Schwarzesel! Now
>  why would that be? Perhaps it is due to your scurrilous character? 

Perhaps it is due to the insignificant drivel you wrote?
>  
>  I wrote:
>  
>  "We are talking about Streicher, his _Der Stu"rmer_, and the reason he was
>  convicted (and executed) for crimes against humanity, Herr Schwarzmehr.
>  (Not that much of what is published today _wouldn't_ have landed a
>  publisher in hot water for publishing obscenities fifty years ago.)"

What is so significant about that?  Were we executing publishers of pornography
50 years ago?
>   
>  > >  (Not that much of what is published today _wouldn't_ have landed a
>  > >  publisher in hot water for publishing obscenities fifty years ago.)
>  > 
>  > In hot water?  Surely you jest!  A man was murdered for exercising his right
>  > to free speech. 
>  
>  Herr Schwarzesel, Streicher was tried, convicted, and executed for crimes
>  against humanity.

Good.  Now we're getting somewhere.  Will you post those "crimes against humanity"
for the benefit of the readers?  
>  > >  > One cannot justify executing another human being simply because they
>  > >  have a >noxious personality, hold unorthodox opinions, or even publish
>  > >  libels.
>  > >  
 You, on the other hand, are a
>  pathetic Nazi apologist and lackey.  

I am neither, nor will I be a lackey to you. ..
 By the way, I read the entire proceedings against
 Streicher at  Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was
 absolutely no justification for his  execution, aside
 from the fact that he disliked Jews. 
>  
>  Herr Schwarzesel, it is pathetic apologistic proclamations such as this
>  that confirmIf you _had_ read
>  and _comprehended_ the IMT proceeding and jusdgement against Streicher you
>  would be making such an ass of yourself. 

I read it, I understand it, and it does not warrant the imposition of the death penalty.
Even your Daniel Keren admitted he would probably not have voted for the death
penalty.  
>  
>  > By the  way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith
>  happens > to agree that the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  
>  
>  Herr Schwarzesel, did you know that Mr. Smith is neither emminent nor a
>  historian? And that his opinions regarding the IMT judgement of Streicher
>  are are nothing more than the absurd bleatings of a Holocaust denier? 
>  
Herr Quatschmeister, you have finally displayed your true ignorance, for all the
world to see.  I was not referring to Bradley Smith, the revisionist.  I was referring
to Bradley F. Smith, author of "Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg".  Nothing like the
taste of your own foot in your mouth, eh, Quatschmeister?

>  > You have failed to provide the proof I requested, and by your violent and 
>  > childish outbursts have now branded yourself as a frustrated fool in the eyes 
>  > of many people who visit this web-site and follow these threads.  
>  
>  On the contrary, Herr Schwarzesel, I have readily provided the relevent
>  passages from various texts refutes your idiotic claims regarding
>  Sreicher. That and to evidence that
>  > Keep up the good work.....
>  
>  Never fear, Herr Schwarzesel, I fully intend to. It amuses me to now end
>  to frustrate pathetic little Nazis-wannbes, such as yourself, in their
>  promulgating Nazi apologia and propaganda. And to watch them turn
>  apoplectic in their impotence when they are so frustrated. 

I am not in the least bit frustrated, nor am I apopletic.  Read your own rantings for
evidence of that.
>  
>  > ...in a few years we might even present you with an award for rendering 
>  > services to the cause of historical revisionism.
>  
>  Words to remember, Herr Schwarzesel. I'll be sure to remind you of them
>  when you are presented with your crow pie.

>   Not in your lifetime.




From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 13:54:01 PDT 1996
Article: 62997 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 6 Sep 1996 09:47:33 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <50orvl$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <50f4fa$aut@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: hd62-195.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

What's your mother's name?


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 13:54:02 PDT 1996
Article: 62998 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 6 Sep 1996 09:47:36 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 1
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Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
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What's your mother's name?


From rbl;ackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 13:54:03 PDT 1996
Article: 62999 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 6 Sep 1996 09:59:19 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>  On 3 Sep 1996 09:32:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  >
>  >
>  >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>  >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
>  >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
>  >magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
>  
>  
>  No, Mr. Belling. YOU are trying to define the definition of pornograpy
>  in terms of Larry Flint or Al Goldstein. The definition has been given
>  to you. You just don't wish to accept it.
>  
>>>>
Now you're telling me the definition of my own post?!?  Dream weaver....



From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 14:27:22 PDT 1996
Article: 63000 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 6 Sep 1996 10:49:17 GMT
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>  <  
>  I'm not much on putting porno on the newgroup, but I can track it down
>  if you want the trash posted. 

I think this is necessary.
>  
>   Belling retorts: You have not provided proof that Streicher published
>  pornography,
>  
>  I have to reply that I am amazed that he disbelieves the words of the
>  Germans and the Nazis in their descriptions of Steicher's stuff. It
>  was always pornographic, Mr. Belling, but it sometimes was. I did post
>  you an actual sample in another thread.
> 
It hardly qualifies as pornography, and do you think those quotes justify
putting a man to death?.
>  
>  
>  Belling:Show me court
>   records where he was convicted in a court of law for sex crimes,
>  
>  I must reply that I'm not the expert on Steicher as Mr. Belling seems
>  to be.
> 
OK.  For a response to all this, please refer to my post:  Ehrenburg vs Streicher
And yes, Mr. Curtis, I would like you to come up with the proof that Streicher was
a purveyor of pornography, and was charged and convicted in a German court.
That will settle the issue nicely, and I will stand condemned for my irresponsiblity.


. With knowledge of the
>  extermination of the Jews in occupied Eastern Territories, this
>  defendant continued to write and publish his propaganda of death . .

Now, this is what I am looking for!  Please provide incontrovertible proof that
Streicher KNEW that Jews were being exterminated or had the power to either
order it or prevent it.  Not too much to ask, is it?
>  


From schwartz@infinet.com Fri Sep  6 18:43:06 PDT 1996
Article: 63018 of alt.revisionism
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From: schwartz@infinet.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:39:53 -0400
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In article <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:


> Well, does this mean that you concede defeat?  By the way, I read the entire
> proceedings against Streicher at Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was
absolutely
> no justification for his execution, aside from the fact that he disliked
Jews.  By the 
> way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith happens to
agree that
> the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  

EMINENT HISTORIAN Bradley Smith??!?!?!?!?

And you think we should take you seriously?!?!
 
Really, Mr. Blackmore/Belling. Why not tell us who you ARE, then tell us
what in the world makes Bradley Smith eminent?
 
Sara

-- 
"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
    Edith Sitwell


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Sep  6 18:43:09 PDT 1996
Article: 63019 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 19:44:12 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Curtis vs Blackmore:
> 
>>  > What you have is no evidence, and the IMT's "evidence" was ridiculous.
>>  nor could I find any justification as to why Streicher was killed. I 
>> posted my reasons why.
>>  > >  
> Schwarzesel, you are blind as well as stupid.
> you are neither intelligent, nor possess any integrity....

I see that you begin the obvious name-calling with me. BTW, the above
isn't from my message.

>>  > >  
>>  > Now, Mark, let's review the "evidence" you have posted as a reply to my
>>  > request:  
>>  > 
>>  > 1.  I am a "Nazi".
>>  > 2.  I am a "Schwarzesel".
>>  > 3.  I am "blind".
>>  > 4.  I am "stupid".
>>  > 5.  I am devoid of intelligence and integrity..
>>  
>>  > Gosh, you're starting to sound more and more like Ilya Ehrenburg every day.
>>  Curtis:
>> you _are_ an ass. A very pompus ass. 

The above is not from one of my posts.

>>  
>>   I do think "Screw" magazine is a good example of pornography,
>>  perhaps you think otherwise?  
>>  
>>  Actually, Herr Schwartzesel, I think _Der Stu'rmer_ was an excellent
>>  example of pornography for the period.
>
>So, Mr. Curtis, pornography is a capital offense.

You need to keep your posts straight. The above is not from my posts,
but appear to be from Mark's. Have you a problem with keep your posts
straight?

By now you should realize that Streicher was not accused of porno at
the IMT, nor was he hung for writing porno.

>  Again, you offered
> nothing written by Streicher which could compare to the filth
> published in Screw magazine.
>

We are in the 1930's and 1940's, Mr. Belling. Conceptions of what
constitutes pornography in European minds of that day might be
different from what we think of porno today, don't you think?

>
>>  Which, when considering that Streicher contiunued publishing such
>>  incitements while knowing of the genocide of the Jews,
>
>Provide documentation.

You are mixing people's posts up. This is rather devious of you. Are
you doing this on purpose?

>
> is one of the main
>>  factors that led to his conviction and execution.
>
>His opinions and blind revenge are what led to his execution. 

Provide documentation for this assertion.




From rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca Fri Sep  6 18:43:10 PDT 1996
Article: 63021 of alt.revisionism
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From: rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: JBellng is still a troll... Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 15:29:52 -0800
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In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

[snip]

> > ... eminent historian Bradley F. Smith happens to agree that
> > the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  
> 
> EMINENT HISTORIAN Bradley Smith??!?!?!?!?
> 
> And you think we should take you seriously?!?!
>  
> Really, Mr. Blackmore/Belling. Why not tell us who you ARE, then tell us
> what in the world makes Bradley Smith eminent?
>  
> Sara

Of course, jbelling/rblackmore and possibly baddab are the same person.
He/she/it uses those two (three ?) accounts to lie and misrepresent the
truth of the Holocaust. On occasion, jbelling/rblackmore has posted
messages to the Usenet altering the reply-to header, substituting such
names as Duncan Coons. Mr. Coons has denied being jbelling, and I have no
reason to disbelieve him - I can only assume that jbelling is a troll with
no real interest in discussion.

In a recent e-mail, later posted to the Usenet, jbelling in its
incarnation as jbelling made the following claim:

"What do you say to the fact that many Jewish publications also quoted
this 4,000,000 figure for YEARS until the research made primarily by
revisionist scholars embarrassed the hell out of them.  Why did the Simon
Wiesenthal Center keep silent on this figure until recently?  Could MONEY
have anything to do with it?"

He has yet to answer the following questions without prevarication:

(1) why he made a baseless accusation as documented above regarding the SWC
(2) where is the proof for the following:
   (a) that the SWC  promoted the figure of 4 million knowing it was wrong
   (b) that this was done for money
(3) when jbelling can't provide that proof, he is requested to revist part
1 and   
    supply the truth

Jbelling also made dubious claims that Eichmann was tortured. Yet, when
asked for proof of this, he claimed to have in his position a picture of
the tortured eichmann, which later became a picture showing eichmann to be
a nervous wreck, which later became a picture that troll Belling admitted
to not having in his posession. 

He has further claimed that the Discovery channel has knowingly promoted
the figure of 4 million at Auschwitz in an attempt to mislead the public.
when asked to support this dubious claim, JBelling declined to provide a
reference, although he claimed to have a copy of the offending documentary
on tape - a claim that is dubious in itself, when Jbelling declined to
examine his tape and prove an exact reference.


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep  6 18:43:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63023 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:23:12 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
>  
>  >Streicher was executed by hanging on October 16, 1946. 
>  
>  As a footnote, Streicher was, of all the Nazis hanged, the only one to give 
>  the Hitler salute before being hanged.  He was also the only one to groan and  
>  moan and cry out at the end of the rope.
>  
>  Turns out that the hangman was irritated with Streicher's display, and 
>  adjusted his noose.
>  
>  I guess that was wrong of the hangman, but I guess that doesn't bother  me a 
>  whole lot under the circumstances.
>  
>  
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------
>  http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>  ...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>  send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.
>  
>>>>
I'll wager there was a lot of moaning going on in Europe during those years.


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:21:57 PDT 1996
Article: 63059 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 6 Sep 1996 08:36:38 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 33
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>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  In message <50gtv0$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>  :>
>  :>Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER:
>  
>  Herr Streicher would have been considered to be a pornographer by the societal
>  standards of his day, which is about the best one can do.  In any event, Mr.
>  Blackmore, whether or not Streicher was a pornographer is irrelevant. --
>  Gord McFee
>  I'll write no line before its time
>  
>  
>>>>
I agree that it was irrelevant to Nuremberg, but not to the gist of my post,
 for the following reason:  In my initial post, I had 
indicated that I had read an accusation directed against Streicher
by a number of respected authors.  The most often repeated slander
was that Streicher was a pornographer, and his publications were filled
with pornography, in a sexual sense.  It was repeated so often and so 
vigorously, that I decided to research the subject further.  The result?
I could find nothing which could be termed pornographic.  Nor could
I find any evidence that Streicher was ever so charged in any courts
during the Weimar republic.  I am aware of the offensive nature of his
newspaper, especially in reference to the Jews, but this does not support
the accusation of pornographer.  Then I went one step further and asked 
myself, "Well, if Streicher wasn't a pornographer, why was he a defendant 
at Nuremberg?"  Then, I discovered that he had been charged and found
guilty of "Crimes against Humanity", so I read the entire transcript of the pro-
ceedings relating to Streicher.  I found no proof that this man was
 directly responsible for anyone's death.  Subsequently, I arrived at the
 conclusion that Streicher was simply murdered out of revenge relating 
to his anti-Semitic opinions and  writings.  I do not think the sentence was
just.  


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:05 PDT 1996
Article: 63068 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 5 Sep 1996 07:55:39 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 33
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>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  >
>  >
>  >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>  >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
>  >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
>  >magazine.
>  
>  Who said he was like Flynt or Goldstein? You?
>  
>  >  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
>  >I asked for specific proof that this man was a pornographer, in a sexual
>  >sense, and confirmed by his very own publications, and or judgements
>  >against him on these charges in any court before Nuremberg.  Can 
>  >any of you provide this proof or not?
>  
>  I sent you some.
>  
>  
>  
>  Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>  
>  For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>  Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>  Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>  Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>  Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>  
>>>>
Don't be ridiculous.  What you sent me was not proof of the above at all.


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:09 PDT 1996
Article: 63069 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 7 Sep 1996 06:35:12 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>Mark:>
Your post was hilarious.  Give me a page number and volume number from the IMT.
I'll type it up on the web-site.  I have no further comments to make to your ignorance.
You are too pathetic.  Ask them if they'll give you a promotion at Nizkor-to janitor, or
something like that, which is better suited to your talents.  

A recap of Mark's research talents and knowledge as a qualified historian:

  > By the  way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith
>   happens > to agree that the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  
>  > >  
>  > >  Herr Schwarzesel, did you know that Mr. Smith is neither emminent nor a
>  > >  historian? And that his opinions regarding the IMT judgement of Streicher
>  > >  are are nothing more than the absurd bleatings of a Holocaust denier? 
>  > >  
>  > Herr Quatschmeister, you have finally displayed your true ignorance, for
>  all the world to see.  I was not referring to Bradley Smith, the
>  revisionist.  I was referring to Bradley F. Smith, author of "Reaching
>  Judgment at Nuremberg".  Nothing like the taste of your own foot in your
>  mouth, eh, Quatschmeister?
>  
>  
Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel.
 Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel. 
Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel. Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel.
 Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel. Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel. Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel.
 Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel. Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel. Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel.
 Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel.
 Mr error, Herr Schwarzesel.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa

Don't flatter yourself that I would ever give you a death threat.  You wouldn't be
worth the effort.  It's so much more fun watching fools like you drudge along in
this world, with nary a clue to your own pathetic impotence.  Besides, I'm a lover,
not a fighter.













From libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu Sat Sep  7 09:22:25 PDT 1996
Article: 63109 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 6 Sep 1996 14:26:07 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

: What's your mother's name?

That's real mature, Mr. Blackmore.  Do you really not see my point,
or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Bill


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:26 PDT 1996
Article: 63115 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: 5 Sep 1996 08:51:54 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <50m4ba$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <322dc04d.1096687@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >Isn't it a fact that a group of rabbinical students
>  >attempted to assassinate Spinoza by stabbing 
>  >him in the back, simply because of his beliefs
>  >and what he wrote?
>  
>  Then he was ex-communicated.
>  
>  
>>>>
Yes, indeed.


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:29 PDT 1996
Article: 63125 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: 7 Sep 1996 11:06:52 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 21
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>   Brian Harmon  writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com  
> 
>  
>  > Next time you
>  > decide to jump in on a debate, research it first.
>  
>  How ironic.

Oh, you are just too clevah, Miss Scarlet.
> 
 Then why make a post about 'rabbinical students' attempting
>   to kill Spinoza because of his beliefs?

Because it's a fact.  Do you have a problem with that?
>  
>>  Are you trying to make a statement about Jews? if not, why did
>   you bother making about about them being rabbinical students?

>>>If I wanted to say something about the Jews, I'd say it...and I did.



From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep  7 09:22:30 PDT 1996
Article: 63128 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:22:44 GMT
Lines: 36
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In message <50gv8b$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
:>
:>The following is a reply to Mr. McVay's poor attempt
:>to provide evidence that Julius Streicher was a
:>purveyor of Pornography.  For his response, see
:>his posting as part of the thread under:
:>Julius Streicher2-PORNOGRAPHER
:>
:>Are you suggesting that Streicher fabricated all these accusations, or
:>were they accusations directing against the Jews from various sources,
:>courts, etc., over the years.  Even after Streicher's death, the blood accu-
:>sation was leveled against the Jews in Kielce, Poland in 1946?, and Messina,
:>New York.  Streicher had nothing to do with these cases.  Aside from 
:>deliberately changing the subject again, you have NOT provided evidence
:>for my inquiry....You mean you don't have it?!?  PS..Now that you have posted
:>]Streicher's propanganda, will you next post what Ilya Ehrenburg wrote concerning
:>Germans?  Also, when Streicher's newspaper was at it's peak, the paper had 700,000
:>subscribers, which dropped to 400,000 during the war.  By the way, some Jews can be
:>recognized by their noses, as can Italians and Arabs...Where does any of the above
:>]give the allies the right to execute this person?  You have much more violent statements
:>being published on the internet and in other private publications right in this country.
:>It is called the right to free speech, and is protected and guaranteed by the first
:>amendment, just as the quotes you cited above.  Don't tell me that the Germans
:>were not entitled to free speech.....No one should have their life taken away from
:>them simply for exercising the basic human right of free speech.  

"Even the citizens of the zthird Reich jokingly called him the
_Reichspornograph_, the national pornographer."  (Bytwerk, _Julius Streicher_,
pages 48-49).



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:31 PDT 1996
Article: 63131 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 7 Sep 1996 04:11:42 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <50qslu$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com>
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>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>

>  

>  :>In the 30s and 40s, pictures of Bettie Page in her underwear were
>  :>considered absolutely obscene and extremely pornographic. Now they're put
>  :>into calendars and sold in comic books stores.
>  
>  I would only add that the pictures and descriptions from _Der Stuermer_ would
>  certainly be considered as pornographic by those standards.
>  
>  
>  --
>  Gord McFee
>

>  
>  
>>>>
This explanation is really pretty lame, sir.  I maintain that pornography is not
Bettie Page in her underwear-that is shocking and salacious.  Pornography
is quite different, and it makes little difference if it appears in 1942 or 1,000 years
BC.  The wall paintings at Pompeii were considered pornographic-and still are.
This is beyond the pale of discussion.  Fact is, Streicher was accused of writing
pornography in a sexual sense, FILTH, if you will, not Bettie Page in her under-
wear.  The accusation is a lie and slander.  Fact is, Streicher was never charged 
in a German Court for publishing pornography.  God knows, enough people were
out to shut him out of business.....You all have failed and your recalcitrance on
admitting the truth leaves you no options. As I wrote in an earlier posts:  if this
story is discredited, as it has been, what will one day happen with your gas chambers?
Back then, they weren't really regarded as gas chambers, they were really only showers.

"If you can't believe the messengers, how can you believe the message?"

Visit:  http://www.codoh.com/


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:32 PDT 1996
Article: 63132 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 7 Sep 1996 04:00:21 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <50m4u4$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>

> 









>  Your obsession (there is no other term for it, really) in asserting that
>  Streicher was executed for publishing pornography is nothing more than a
>  transparent red herring used in your (rather boring) attempts at Nazi
>  apologia. 
>  
>  Ge

>  
>>>>
Let me try to explain this so that even YOU can understand, Marie-Poo:

1.  I wrote that Streicher is always depicted as a pornographer by his detractors.

2.  They imply that he published pornography in a sexual sense.

3.  I asked for proof.  You posted a reply.  It was unacceptable.

4.  I asked for proof as to whether he was ever charged or convicted in a 
     German Court during the Weimar Republic for publishing pornography.
     You never replied.

5.  Then, I asked for evidential proof to justify his execution at Nuremberg.
      I asked for direct proof that he knew and substantiated on his own that
      Jews were being murdered in Europe.  You have not supplied this evidence.

6.  You stated that Streicher was convicted of inciting the German people to mass
      murder the Jews.  I replied that his paper had a subscription list of 400,000 people
     during the war years, in a nation of 80,000,000.  Most of the subscribers were obviously
     old geriatric cases like Streicher, as Germany's male population was virtually impressed
     into the service.  Your argument, and Nuremberg's argument is a smokescreen.  By the
     way, how does that red herring taste--you know, the one you are now chewing on?


From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep  7 09:22:33 PDT 1996
Article: 63134 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:22:23 GMT
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In message <50gtv0$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
:>
:>Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
:>
:>
:>Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
:>already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
:>being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
:>magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
:>I asked for specific proof that this man was a pornographer, in a sexual
:>sense, and confirmed by his very own publications, and or judgements
:>against him on these charges in any court before Nuremberg.  Can 
:>any of you provide this proof or not?

Herr Streicher would have been considered to be a pornographer by the societal
standards of his day, which is about the best one can do.  In any event, Mr.
Blackmore, whether or not Streicher was a pornographer is irrelevant.



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:37 PDT 1996
Article: 63155 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 7 Sep 1996 06:46:50 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   schwartz@infinet.com writes:
>  In article <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  
>  > Well, does this mean that you concede defeat?  By the way, I read the entire
>  > proceedings against Streicher at Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was
>  absolutely
>  > no justification for his execution, aside from the fact that he disliked
>  Jews.  By the 
>  > way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith happens to
>  agree that
>  > the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  
>  
>  EMINENT HISTORIAN Bradley Smith??!?!?!?!?
>  
>  And you think we should take you seriously?!?!
>   
>  Really, Mr. Blackmore/Belling. Why not tell us who you ARE, then tell us
>  what in the world makes Bradley Smith eminent?
>   
>  Sara
>  
>  -- 
>  "I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>      Edith Sitwell
>  
>>>>
Well, Sara, perhaps THIS is why you should take me seriously.
 I was referring to Bradley F. Smith,
the historian-author of "Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg", not
 Codoh's Mr. Smith.  And I am supposed to take YOU seriously?
You know what-I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who
are proud of it.  "Won't you step into my parlor, said the spider to
the fly......"  I'll be saving this post for future reference.  It'll take
more than the likes of you, Van Alstine, and the rest of the 
Nizkor dilettantes to get the best of me.

rb

For a breath of fresh air, visit:  http://www.codoh.com/


From dkeren@world.std.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:38 PDT 1996
Article: 63160 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> 
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:07:31 GMT
Lines: 16

schwartz@infinet.com writes:
# rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

## By the way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley
## F. Smith happens to agree that the case against Streicher
## was ridiculous?

# EMINENT HISTORIAN Bradley Smith??!?!?!?!?

There is, actually, a serious historian named Bradley Smith; I
guess this is the Bradely F. Smith. The senile "revisionist"
clown is, I think, Bradley S. Smith.


-Danny Keren.



From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:41 PDT 1996
Article: 63172 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher and the Big Lie Technique
Date: 7 Sep 1996 05:29:17 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   schwartz@infinet.com writes:

>  Where is the proof of the "Jewish" pornographers? The proof of Streicher
>  is in his _Stuermer_.
>  > [snip]
>     
>  let's try this once again, Mr. "Stele," since you've been told at ;east
>  three times and haven't gotten it yet
> >  > 
>  
>  Errr... excuse me, Mr. "Stele," but the GERMANS decide what is criminal in
>  Gemany.  

NOT AT NUREMBERG.(Inserted by rblackmore)
>>>>
    I want to only address a few things here, which Sara wrote:

1. . Facts are facts. Streicher was a virulent
>  pornographer. That is a fact. The verification is in _Der Sterumer_.
    from where I sit, there are piles and piles of proof.
 
>    Sara's assertion that Streicher was a pornographer.
      Seeing that you admit having all the proof in front of you, then you must have
      proof that Streicher was charged and convicted in a German court of law during
      the Weimar Republic for the dissemination of pornography.  Please post that
      document, if you dont mind. If he wasn't charged and convicted, and if you don't
      have proof of  it, then no one in their right mind would accept your statement as a fact.


2.  When speaking about pornographers, Sara mentions Bob Guccione, Hugh Hefner, etc.
      All right, I can accept that.  Shall we call that a form of "soft porn"?  Then, we have
     people like Larry Flynt and Al Goldstein.  That might be called "hard porn".  Now, Sara,
     since you have already written that Streicher was indeed a pornographer, discounting the
     idea that his opponents may have disliked him or slandered him, why don't you provide us
     with evidence from the Stuermer which would count towards placing him with the likes of
     Flynt, Goldstein, etc.  From this logic, I would suppose the Nazi film "Der Ewige Jude" is
     to be classified as a pornographic film?  By the way, why wasn't the director of this film
     hanged, as was Streicher?  Which brings us to your third point:

3.  : STREICHER WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH
>  FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. NOT IDEAS.
  Ok,  where is the direct evidence which proves that Streicher
 knew that Jews were being  murdered in gas chambers or any
 where else?  Because he read reports in the foreign press?  He
  read enemy reports in the foreign press and that was supposed
 to have convinced him?  He  continued publishing his paper and
 calling for revenge against the Jews?  I already addressed   this
 argument in my STREICHER-EHRENBURG post.  What crime did
 he commit?  Give us ONE instance where he was directly responsible
 for the death of one human being.  That is all we are asking.  Shouldn't
 be difficult to come up with-after all, he was hanged, wasn't he?  Give
 us one verified instance where this impotent old man ordered that a
 particular human bein or group of human beings were murdered on his
 direct orders.  Then, you will have provide proof.  It's always easy to
 accuse, but providing documented proof is a bit difficult, isn't it?


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:42 PDT 1996
Article: 63173 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:47:20 -0800
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In article <50lmpa$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

> And, yes, I do think "Screw" magazine is a good example of pornography,
perhaps you think otherwise?  

Actually, Herr Schwartzesel, I think _Der Stu'rmer_ was an excellent
example of pornography for the period. It was also an excellent example of
obscenities, incitements to violence against- and mass murder of -Jews.
Which, considering that Streicher contiunued publishing such while knowing
of the genocide of the Jews, is one of the main factors that led to his
conviction and execution. 

But either you knew that, Herr Schwartzesel and lack the integrity to
acknowledge th reasons for the IMT's judgement, or you are quite stupip
and lack the intelligence to comprehend the meaning of the IMT's
judgement. 

Take your pick, Herr Schwartzesel. Neither flatter you very much, however.
Personally, I think you are _both_ stupid and craven. But that's simply my
personal opinion based on your craven and stupid behavior.... 

> Thank you for your enlightened response to my request for documentary proof.  
> Let the reader draw his or her own conslusions about how you filled the 
> request.

Indeed, Herr Schwartzesel. I gladly defer judgement on your lack of
integrity and intelligence to the reader. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep  7 11:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 63180 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:13:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 6 Sep 1996 07:38:39 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:


>>  
>>       So these quotes served to condemn Streicher to death?
>>     
>>        Inge sits in the Jew doctor's reception room.  She has to wait a
>>        long time.  She looks through the magazines on the table.  But she
>>        is much too nervous even to read a few sentences.  Again and again
>>        she remembers her talk with her mother.  And again and again her
>>        mind dwells on the warnings of her B D M leader: 'A German must
>>        not consult a Jew doctor!  And particularly not a German girl!
>>        Many a girl who has gone to a Jew doctor to be cured has found
>>        disease and disgrace !' After entering the waiting-room, Inge had
>>        an extraordinary experience.  From the doctor's consulting-room
>>        she could hear the sound of crying.  She heard the voice of a
>>        young girl: 'Doctor, doctor, leave me alone!' Then she heard a man
>>        laughing scornfully.  And then all of a sudden, absolute silence.
>>        Inge held her breath and listened.  'What can this mean ?' she
>>        asked herself and her heart was pounding.  Once again she thought
>>        of her B D M leader's warning.  Inge has now been waiting for an
>>        hour.  She takes up the magazines again and tries to read.  The
>>        door opens.  Inge looks up.  There stands the Jew.  She screams.
>>        She's so frightened, she drops the magazine.  She jumps up in
>>        terror.  Her eyes stare into the Jewish doctor's face.  His face
>>        is the face of a devil.  In the middle of this devil's face is a
>>        huge crooked nose.  Behind the spectacles two criminal eyes.  And
>>        the thick lips are grinning.  A grin that says: 'Now I've got you
>>        at last, little German girl !' The Jew approaches her.  His fleshy
>>        fingers stretch out for her.  But now Inge has recovered her wits.
>>        Before the Jew can grab hold of her, she slaps the Jew doctor's
>>        fat face.  Then a jump to the door, and Inge runs breathlessly
>>        down the stairs.  She escapes breathlessly from the Jew house...."
>>        (Noakes, 468-470)

>This is pornography?  Is this what Streicher was condemned to death for?
>>By the way, I showed your documentation to a number of people, and most
>of them thought the writings were hilarious...hardly anything to be put to death for..
>Oh, well, that's life in the big city.  

	To holohuggers, yes.  They are a very perverted lot of sadists.  

	Consider how perverted a person has to be to get an erection over this
description as the holohuggers do.  

	An erection is the determinant of pornography, purient interest only
applies to men.  

	Consider how perverted holohuggers are that they are turned on by
those words.  Can you really imagine it?  Yet they are.  

	BTW:  is not "she escapes breathlessly" not clear enough indiation
that this is pornography for sadists clear enough?    




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From nmonagha@nyx10.cs.du.edu Sat Sep  7 11:51:02 PDT 1996
Article: 63188 of alt.revisionism
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From: nmonagha@nyx10.cs.du.edu (N.O. Monaghan)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 7 Sep 1996 06:56:47 -0600
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Daniel Keren (dkeren@world.std.com) wrote:
: Finally, on your "STREICHER-EHRENBURG" analogy: there's a
: very basic flaw in it. Ehrenburg's propaganda was
: indeed hateful and violent - and I don't like it - BUT,
: he was referring to an enemy which attacked his country,

And that is what made the difference? No, of course not... Ehrenburg
was one of the Bolshevik elite, and since the Bolsehviks won the war...

N.O. Monaghan




From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep  7 18:06:04 PDT 1996
Article: 63221 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 7 Sep 1996 17:48:47 GMT
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In message <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com3 Sep 1996
10:48:34 GMT writes:
:>
:>Mark Van Alstine rages:
:>  
:>>  According to _you_, Herr Schwarzmehr. Needless to say your "standard" of
:>>  "proof" is about as twisted as Streicher's idea of a good time.
:>
:>What was his idea of a good time, Herr Van Alstine?  My standard of proof?
:>I asked you to supply evidence direct from Streicher's publications that he was a
:>purveyor of pornography, as the slander goes...Let the reader decide whether my
:>request is twisted or not.... 

One example of Streicher's idea of a good time is the following:

[begin quote]

Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
announced that it gave him an orgasm.

[end quote] [Airey Neave, _Nuremberg_, Coronet Books, 1978, page 91.]

[deleted]

:>Well, does this mean that you concede defeat?  By the way, I read the entire
:>proceedings against Streicher at Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was absolutely
:>no justification for his execution, aside from the fact that he disliked Jews.  By the 
:>way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith happens to agree that
:>the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  You have failed to provide the proof I
:>requested, and by your violent and childish outbursts have now branded yourself
:>as a frustrated fool in the eyes of many people who visit this web-site and follow these
:>threads.  Keep up the good work.....in a few years we might even present you with
:>an award for rendering services to the cause of historical revisionism.

There are several historians whoi have studied Nuremberg who disagree with
some of the sentences, Professor Smith being one of them.  The most common
sentences cited tend to be those meted out to Streicher, Jodl, and Sauckel,
and the sentence *not* meted out to Speer.

What make Streicher so difficult was that he was so loathsome and probably
best represented Hitler's perverted antisemitism among the "big-wigs" still
alive.  I still feel he was tried as an ersatz Hitler, much as Fritzsche was
an ersatz Goebbels.  A person who so happily and at great profit exploited
millions of young children with his disgusting rubbish is nonetheless
difficult to pity.

For what it is worth, and with respect to those who see it otherwise, I do not
feel the death penalty was appropriate in Streicher's case.  I say this
especially since he had no executive power after 1940.


--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep  7 18:06:09 PDT 1996
Article: 63235 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?,2-Mark Van Alstine's Strike 1
Date: 7 Sep 1996 17:49:33 GMT
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In message <50h15v$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
:>

:>None of this is pornography, nor was anything you posted in your
:>previous response.  Are you suggesting that a person receive the
:>death sentence for what was quoted above?  Hugh Hefner-you
:>better start packing your bags!  Why don't any of you people just
:>have the decency to admit that Streicher never belonged at 
:>Nuremberg?

What is it that you want people to "admit"?  That Streicher was not a
pornographer, as irrelevant to anything as that is?  That Streicher didn't
belong at Nuremberg, as irrelevant to anything as that is?



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63240 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 6 Sep 1996 09:49:09 GMT
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>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  : To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher:  I am not denying what he wrote...I 
>  : am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their
>  : opinions.  
>  
>  Try a little experiment, Mr. Blackmore.  You probably know somebody
>  who isn't terribly stable and who has an tense relationship with, say,
>  his mother.  Befriend this person.  Everytime you see him, tell him 
>  in the strongest possible terms that his mother is an agent of the 
>  devil, and is planning his death.  Tell him this over and over--
>  really try to convince him.  Make up lies about her that support
>  your argument.  After you've got him hooked in, start implying that the 
>  only way for him to save himself is to kill his mother before she kills 
>  him.  Really work on him. Suggest times and plans for killing her.
>  
>  When he does it, go to the police and tell them exactly what you did.
>  Tell them that it was all just your opinion.  See what happens.  
>  Report back.
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
What's your mother's name?


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:15 PDT 1996
Article: 63241 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 6 Sep 1996 09:48:51 GMT
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>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  : To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher:  I am not denying what he wrote...I 
>  : am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their
>  : opinions.  
>  
>  Try a little experiment, Mr. Blackmore.  You probably know somebody
>  who isn't terribly stable and who has an tense relationship with, say,
>  his mother.  Befriend this person.  Everytime you see him, tell him 
>  in the strongest possible terms that his mother is an agent of the 
>  devil, and is planning his death.  Tell him this over and over--
>  really try to convince him.  Make up lies about her that support
>  your argument.  After you've got him hooked in, start implying that the 
>  only way for him to save himself is to kill his mother before she kills 
>  him.  Really work on him. Suggest times and plans for killing her.
>  
>  When he does it, go to the police and tell them exactly what you did.
>  Tell them that it was all just your opinion.  See what happens.  
>  Report back.
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
What's your mother's name?


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:20 PDT 1996
Article: 63266 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 14:05:08 -0800
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In article <50r7s0$on2@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <50lo7t$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com
wrote and van alstine responded:
> >  
>  Thanks for the
> >  (unwitting) confirmation, Herr Schwarzesel. 
> ]
> Beg your pardon?  Where did I ever say that Wistrich PROVED Streicher was
> a pornographer?  FYI, he didn't. It is just a base accusation, like the other.

Herr Schwarzesel, Wistrich gave his historical assessment of Streicher's
_Der Stu"rmer_: 

"This weekly newspaper (The Stuermer) was notorious on account of it's coarse 
carricatures, it's repulsive photos of Jews, it's histories of Ritual
Murder, it's pornographic elements, and it's rude style." 

This assessment has been corroborated several times by several people
citing several different historical sources. That _Der Stu"rmer_ contained
"pornographic elements" and that Streicher was its publisher made him a
pornographer by definition. 

[snip]

> >  And what is _my_ definition of pornography, Herr Schwarzesel? 
> 
> I wouldn't presume to think for you, Quatschmeister.  That would be granting
> you too much.  Why don't you tell me what your definition of pornography is?

And what relevence would that have, Herr Schwarzesel? The only definition
of pornography that _is_ relevent is that of the period that Streicher
published _Der Stu"rmer_. And, as we know, given that criteria, Streicher
was widely known as being a pornographer. 

> >  > Who thought up that clever little nickname of Schwarzesel?  Don Rickles?
> >  
> >  Nope. Jes' little ol' me, Herr Schwarzesel.
> 
> No wonder it's so prosaic. 

Prophetic too, Herr Schwarzesel. 

> >  > Not only have you lost this argument, but you appear to have lost your
> >  > mind as well.
> >  
> >  Far from it, Herr Schwarzesel. You see, I and others  have given you
> >  evidence that not only was Streicher a war criminal for his anti-Semitic
> >  incitements to violence and death against Jews, but a pornographer as
> >  well. 
> 
> If you had given me satisfactory evidence I wouldn't still be asking for it.

Herr Schwarzesel, it has been quite obvious for some time now that the
only "satisfactory evidence" you are willing to entertain are your own
Nazi fantasies. Small wonder your ilk are called deniers. Not only do you
deny the Holocaust, but the rest of reality as well. 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mcurtis@inetport.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:23 PDT 1996
Article: 63273 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 21:06:11 GMT
Reply-To: mcurtis@inetport.com
Message-ID: <3231de47.1948652@news.inetport.com>
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>This is pornography?

Read what is below folks and tell us what you think your
parents-parents would say.

>  Is this what Streicher was condemned to death for?

Nope, he wasn't condemned to death for this. It doesn't seem to matter
how often you are told this but let me offer you some advice. Stop
saying this because lurkers can count. Actually keep saying this, then
they'll know that you actually do not read the posts commenting on
yours.

>>        Inge sits in the Jew doctor's reception room.  She has to wait a
>>        long time.  She looks through the magazines on the table.  But she
>>        is much too nervous even to read a few sentences.  Again and again
>>        she remembers her talk with her mother.  And again and again her
>>        mind dwells on the warnings of her B D M leader: 'A German must
>>        not consult a Jew doctor!  And particularly not a German girl!
>>        Many a girl who has gone to a Jew doctor to be cured has found
>>        disease and disgrace !' After entering the waiting-room, Inge had
>>        an extraordinary experience.  From the doctor's consulting-room
>>        she could hear the sound of crying.  She heard the voice of a
>>        young girl: 'Doctor, doctor, leave me alone!' Then she heard a man
>>        laughing scornfully.  And then all of a sudden, absolute silence.
>>        Inge held her breath and listened.  'What can this mean ?' she
>>        asked herself and her heart was pounding.  Once again she thought
>>        of her B D M leader's warning.  Inge has now been waiting for an
>>        hour.  She takes up the magazines again and tries to read.  The
>>        door opens.  Inge looks up.  There stands the Jew.  She screams.
>>        She's so frightened, she drops the magazine.  She jumps up in
>>        terror.  Her eyes stare into the Jewish doctor's face.  His face
>>        is the face of a devil.  In the middle of this devil's face is a
>>        huge crooked nose.  Behind the spectacles two criminal eyes.  And
>>        the thick lips are grinning.  A grin that says: 'Now I've got you
>>        at last, little German girl !' The Jew approaches her.  His fleshy
>>        fingers stretch out for her.  But now Inge has recovered her wits.
>>        Before the Jew can grab hold of her, she slaps the Jew doctor's
>>        fat face.  Then a jump to the door, and Inge runs breathlessly
>>        down the stairs.  She escapes breathlessly from the Jew house...."
>>        (Noakes, 468-470)
>
>This is pornography?  Is this what Streicher was condemned to death for?
>>By the way, I showed your documentation to a number of people, and most
>of them thought the writings were hilarious...hardly anything to be put to death for..
>Oh, well, that's life in the big city.  
>  

Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

For More Information try The Nizkor Project
Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
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From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:24 PDT 1996
Article: 63274 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 7 Sep 1996 04:56:20 GMT
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>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>  
> 
In response to Mr.Keren, your first two points are well taken and I have
no problem with that.  The only problem I have is applying double standards.
>

> 

>  Finally, on your "STREICHER-EHRENBURG" analogy: there's a
>  very basic flaw in it. Ehrenburg's propaganda was
>  indeed hateful and violent - and I don't like it - BUT,
>  he was referring to an enemy which attacked his country,
>  regarded its citizens as "sub-humans", and butchered numerous
>  innocents. 
>  
>  Streicher, on the other hand, propagated hate against a
>  defenseless "enemy" which was guilty of no crime, and
>  openly called, again and again, to butcher and annihilate
>  this "enemy". If you can't see the difference, you're
>  really crazy.
>  
Well, the above is what really needs to be addressed here.  So I will :


>  

I believe you may not be completely informed about Ehrenburg's
 activities.  His propaganda referred not only to the German armed
forces, but to the civilian population as well.  If you want further postings,
 I willbe most happy to oblige you.  The Soviets also had a fine history of 
aggression:  such as the invasion of Finnland, the subjugation of Georgia,
 Latvia, Lithuanian, etc.  Also, not all Germans were guilty of crimes against
 civilians.  The Soviets had a practice of often murdering and mutilating
 captured German soldiers, gouging out eyes, cutting off genitalia, etc.  This
 was in 1941-before the war between Russia and Germany ever accelerated.
  German civilians were murdered in the most brutal fashion.  If you want me
to begin documenting these facts, I will do so.  We can start with Nemmersdorf.
  In point of fact, more atrocities were committed by the Russians than any other
 allied force, and Ehrenburg's propaganda had a lot to do with it.

Mr. Curtis continues:
 Streicher, on
 the other hand, propagated hate against a>>defenseless "enemy" which was
 guilty of no crime, and>>openly called, again and again, to butcher and annihilate 
this "enemy". If you can't see the difference, you're>>really crazy

.I am not crazy
 and neither are you.  What you are doing is ascribing asignificance way beyond
 reason to an insignificant, powerless, prejudiced old man.  The Germans were a
 nation of 80,000,000 people.  Streicher had a  list of 400,000 active subscribers
 during the war years.  Obviously, most of these subscribers were
 old geriatric cases, as the young people were all immersed in the war effort.  His
 own peers shunned him and avoided him.  He was removed from office in 1940.
  He was IMPOTENT.  His rantings went unheeded by the German armed forces
 and the German people.  He did not send radio broadcasts to the German armed
 forces, as Ehrenburg did.  Consequently, his rantings never reached the audience
 which could have done the most damage if influenced by him.   I have made
 it clear that I do not support Streicher's messages of hate, but I am honest enough to
 admit that the man's opinions were insufficient cause to condemn a man to death.  If
 he wasn't tried at Nuremberg, what do you think would have happened to him?  His
 library and home would have been confiscated, he would have been hounded by both
 the allied occupation government as well as by his own countrymen.  He would have
 died in disgrace, but the events at Nuremberg will probably back-fire one day  and
 create a martyr out of him.  That sort of thing usually happens to people who are
 executed for "thought crimes".>>

According to your post you feel that  Streicher was targeting
defenseless people.  Let's address this.   You are in effect,  offering mitigating
 circumstances for the
 exhortations of Ehrenburg and condemning  Streicher.  I have already pointed out 
  that Ehrenburg's hate diatribes were delivered to the people where they
 would have the most effect-the people with the guns.  It was not so with Streicher.
  The very fact that Streicher's thinking was delusional should be one of the 
chief mitigating factors in his defense.  Streicher was an out-cast, even
 among his own kind-but Ehrenburg's calls to murder were accepted and
 delivered where they would have the greatest and most devastating effect.
  The consequences of Ehrenburg's hate was felt by innocent men, women
 and children.  You cannot justify this.  Streicher imputed more power to the
Jews than they had.  He believed it.  It wasn't some rabbit he pulled out of a hat
to mystify the masses.  He believed in the Protocols of Zion.  He believed that
Jews were responsible for the war.  He believed that the Jews were responsible for 
all of the world's misfortunes.  
 
 given
 the hatreds generated in the first 50 years of >this>Century, there had to be some
 kind of catharsis

.That "catharsis" should not have consisted in executing people
 for thought crimes.  That was the >necessity of>Nuremberg _at that time_.  I don't
 think there is anything wrong with>admitting its faults today. 

 If you are a
 Germanophile, think about >this one:> if there had been no IMT, would there 
have been a Marshall Plan and a >Berlin>Airlift?

If you think the Marshall Plan
 was sponsored by the Americans out of genuine empathy with the sufferings of
 the German population, you are inerror.  See the book:  From the Ruins of the
 Reich, Douglas Botting, Crown Publishers.Other suggested reading:  Documents
 on the German Expulsion, An Eye for an Eye, bu John Sack.


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:26 PDT 1996
Article: 63279 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:58:43 -0800
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In article <50r530$on2@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >Mark:>
> Your post was hilarious.  Give me a page number and volume number from
the IMT. I'll type it up on the web-site.  

Herr Schwarzesel, I'm _already_ waiting for you to quote in full the
"IMT's Case against Streicher." After that you can quote in full PS-710
-both in the origional German and the English translation presented before
the IMT. 

Hop to it, Herr Schwarzesel! 

[Herr Schwarzesel's apoplectic spasms snipped]

> ...Besides, I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Indeed. Herr Schwarzesel, besides being craven to the bone, you are
obviously bessotted with your Nazi heroes.  Like the pervert Streicher and
the tumescent pig Go"ring. Such odd bedfellows you keep, Herr Schwarzesel.
But, I suppose, cosidering your apparent "interests" you don't have all
that many Nazi "heroes" to pick from when pursuing your Nazi fantasies....


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:29 PDT 1996
Article: 63293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 7 Sep 1996 07:22:40 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <50r7s0$on2@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: dd39-168.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <50lo7t$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote and van alstine responded:
>  
 Thanks for the
>  (unwitting) confirmation, Herr Schwarzesel. 
]
Beg your pardon?  Where did I ever say that Wistrich PROVED Streicher was
a pornographer?  FYI, he didn't.  It is just a base accusation, like the other.
You are starting to remind me more and more of the scarecrow in the Wizard
of Oz-both of you need a brain.
>  
>  And what is _my_ definition of pornography, Herr Schwarzesel? 

I wouldn't presume to think for you, Quatschmeister.  That would be granting
you too much.  Why don't you tell me what your definition of pornography is?
>   >

>  > Who thought up that clever little nickname of Schwarzesel?  Don Rickles?
>  
>  Nope. Jes' little ol' me, Herr Schwarzesel.

No wonder it's so prosaic. 
>    
>  > Not only have you lost this argument, but you appear to have lost your
>  mind as 
>  > well.
>  
>  Far from it, Herr Schwarzesel. You see, I and others  have given you
>  evidence that not only was Streicher a war criminal for his anti-Semitic
>  incitements to violence and death against Jews, but a pornographer as
>  well. 

If you had given me satisfactory evidence I wouldn't still be asking for it.
>  
>  That you, in your Nazi fantasy world, cannot deal with these facts, and
>  thus dismiss them out of hand, is hardly evidence that _I_ (or others) 
>  have "lost this argument" or mind. Just the oppiste it would seem....
>  
It is you who is living in a fantasy world....I asked for documentation.  You failed
]to meet the burden of proof.  You people always seem to have trouble proving
things.  Your dialogues are fit for science fiction, not historical documentation.

"The truth or not the truth-that is the question.  The truth and ALL the truth, that is the answer."

For a breath of fresh air, visit: http://codoh.com/



From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep  7 18:39:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63314 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?,2-Mark Van Alstine's Strike 1
Date: 7 Sep 1996 11:00:52 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <50rkl4$69t@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <322e43e7.659376@news.inetport.com>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: hd46-129.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) says
>  >>  
>  >>  Add the following to my rather lengthy response to you concerning the
>  >>  misfit Streicher:
>  >>  
>  >>  "The mail sperm in cohabitation is partially or completely absorbed by
>  >>  the female and thus enters her bloodstream. One single cohabitation of
>  >>  a Jew with an Aryan woman is sufficient to poison her blood forever.
>  >>  Never again will she be able to bear purely Aryan children, even when
>  >>  married to an Aryan. They will all be bastards.

What is the technical term for this again?


>  >>     Now we know why the Jew uses every artifice of seduction in order
>  >>  to ravish German girls at as early age as possible; why the Jewish
>  >>  doctor rapes his female patients while they are under anesthetic."

Is this true?
>  >>  
>  >>  [Quoted from _Hitler Path To Power_ by Charles B. Flood, Houghton
>  >>  Mifflin, 1989, page 282.]
>  >None of this is pornography, nor was anything you posted in your
>  >previous response.
>  
>  I am deeply sory it wasn't kinky enough for you or that you think
>  Goering, Schacht, von Papen, and even Hitler thought what he wrote was
>  pornographic. 

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, period.  This is a matter for EVIDENCE.
> 
>  He wasn't hung for being a pornographer.
No, he was hanged for saying naughty things about the Jews.
>>>>



From karlpov@access5.digex.net Sat Sep  7 21:44:50 PDT 1996
Article: 63326 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!access5!karlpov
From: karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK ITS NAME
Date: 7 Sep 1996 21:17:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References: <50t14j$19d@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>Has anyone noticed how the affirmers will not touch the post
>"STREICHER vs EHRENBURG" with a 10 foot pole?  Might
>elicit some awkward philosophical premises.

Possibly because no one gives diddly about Ilya Ehrenburg, whose 
survival through the Stalinist era speaks rather badly for him by 
itself. BTW, where did you garner your Ehrenburg quotes? Primary 
or secondary sources?

As for Streicher, as many have pointed out, his contemporaries
seem to have called him a pornographer on a number of occasions.
That of course does not mean that we would call him a pornographer
today, with rather different community standards. I don't know
where I could find a representative selection from his periodical
in original or translation to check out the charge, nor do I see
why this is necessary. Why don't you quote the Nurenberg indictment
and simply argue whether it was accurate? This enormous flurry of
messages, mostly from your keyboard, seems rather a waste of time.


From rblackmore@juno.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:04 PDT 1996
Article: 63353 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 7 Sep 1996 22:11:07 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <50srtr$19d@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>  schwartz@infinet.com writes:
>  # rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  ## By the way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley
>  ## F. Smith happens to agree that the case against Streicher
>  ## was ridiculous?
>  
>  # EMINENT HISTORIAN Bradley Smith??!?!?!?!?
>  
>  There is, actually, a serious historian named Bradley Smith; I
>  guess this is the Bradely F. Smith. The senile "revisionist"
>  clown is, I think, Bradley S. Smith.
>  
>  
>  -Danny Keren.
>  
>  
>>>>
Thank you for pointing out your colleague Van Alstine's ineptitude.

rblackmore


From qut@netcom.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63366 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!qut
From: qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK ITS NAME
Message-ID: 
Organization: Order of Berkeley California
References: <50t14j$19d@juliana.sprynet.com> 
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:19:22 GMT
Lines: 29
Sender: qut@netcom.netcom.com

In  karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes:

! rblackmore@juno.com writes:
! 
! >Has anyone noticed how the affirmers will not touch the post
! >"STREICHER vs EHRENBURG" with a 10 foot pole?  Might
! >elicit some awkward philosophical premises.
! 
! Possibly because no one gives diddly about Ilya Ehrenburg, whose 
! survival through the Stalinist era speaks rather badly for him by 
! itself. BTW, where did you garner your Ehrenburg quotes? Primary 
! or secondary sources?
! 
! As for Streicher, as many have pointed out, his contemporaries
! seem to have called him a pornographer on a number of occasions.
! That of course does not mean that we would call him a pornographer
! today, with rather different community standards. I don't know
! where I could find a representative selection from his periodical
! in original or translation to check out the charge, nor do I see
! why this is necessary. Why don't you quote the Nurenberg indictment
! and simply argue whether it was accurate? This enormous flurry of
! messages, mostly from your keyboard, seems rather a waste of time.

Clearly, you believe the Holocaust to be a scam.
-- 


         |  |  |  |  |
           |  |  |  |
         |  |  |  |  |
         _|__|__|__|__
       /--------------\
       |              |
       |  0     0     |--\
       |     *        |  |
       | \-------/    |  |
       |  \_____/     |__/
        \______________/

       ב  


From qut@netcom.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:13 PDT 1996
Article: 63367 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!qut
From: qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME
Message-ID: 
Organization: Order of Berkeley California
References: <50t14j$19d@juliana.sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:20:47 GMT
Lines: 12
Sender: qut@netcom.netcom.com

In <50t14j$19d@juliana.sprynet.com> rblackmore@juno.com writes:

! Has anyone noticed how the affirmers will not touch the post
! "STREICHER vs EHRENBURG" with a 10 foot pole?  Might
! elicit some awkward philosophical premises.

Well, what do you expect?  Facts?  Facts are a conspiracy 
-- 


         |  |  |  |  |
           |  |  |  |
         |  |  |  |  |
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       /--------------\
       |              |
       |  0     0     |--\
       |     *        |  |
       | \-------/    |  |
       |  \_____/     |__/
        \______________/

       ב  


From mcurtis@inetport.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:24 PDT 1996
Article: 63408 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 21:06:06 GMT
Reply-To: mcurtis@inetport.com
Message-ID: <3231d93e.658587@news.inetport.com>
References: <322aec3d.5133410@news.inetport.com> <50oqsh$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>
>>  <>  
>>  I'm not much on putting porno on the newgroup, but I can track it down
>>  if you want the trash posted. 
>
>I think this is necessary.

You know what, I don't think it much matters as far as things go here.
The issue is denial of the Holocaust. Whether we post the pictures
contained in _Der Stuermer_ or post rancid articles that are both
antisemetic, pornographic (in the terms of Germany in 1930-1940), or
both will do nothing to prove or disprove the murder of 12,000
non-comatants by the Germans from 1933-1945.

>>  
>>   Belling retorts: You have not provided proof that Streicher published
>>  pornography,
>>  
>>  I have to reply that I am amazed that he disbelieves the words of the
>>  Germans and the Nazis in their descriptions of Steicher's stuff. It
>>  was always pornographic, Mr. Belling, but it sometimes was. I did post
>>  you an actual sample in another thread.
>> 
>It hardly qualifies as pornography, and do you think those quotes justify
>putting a man to death?.

I don't think I care how you qualify or quantify pornography.
Historians and the people of Streicher's own time labeled his stuff
exactly in the terms as many in this group have described it. If you
have some historian claiming something different, please present it to
this group. You opinions count for little here. They count for a lot
less when one considers that they are empty opinions.

>>  
>>  
>>  Belling:Show me court
>>   records where he was convicted in a court of law for sex crimes,
>>  
>>  I must reply that I'm not the expert on Steicher as Mr. Belling seems
>>  to be.
>> 
>OK.  For a response to all this, please refer to my post:  Ehrenburg vs Streicher

I haven't seen it on this service as yet.

>And yes, Mr. Curtis, I would like you to come up with the proof that Streicher was
>a purveyor of pornography,

No said he was a purveyor, but rather was a writer of. 

> and was charged and convicted in a German court.

See my top answer above at the very first.

>That will settle the issue nicely, and I will stand condemned for my irresponsiblity.
>

It doesn't matter if this issue is settled to your satisfaction or
not. I'm satisfied with what has been presented here. You seem to be
the only one who isn't. Giwer doesn't count. Moran doesn't. You are
beginning to not count for much.

>
>. With knowledge of the
>>  extermination of the Jews in occupied Eastern Territories, this
>>  defendant continued to write and publish his propaganda of death . .
>
>Now, this is what I am looking for!  Please provide incontrovertible proof that
>Streicher KNEW that Jews were being exterminated or had the power to either
>order it or prevent it.  Not too much to ask, is it?

Not at all, since I already did it. It seems you do not pay attention
to what you do not want to see.

But unlike most of you I will rewrite a portion of what I had already
posted.


Here it is again and this time read the whole thing to the bottom:

September 1939: "The Jewish people ought to be exterminated root and
branch. Then the plague of pests would have disappeared in Poland also
at one stroke."

December 1939:"The day will come some time when the French will awake.
Then they will slay the Jews in masses."

February 1940: "Atthe end of this Jewish war the extermination of the
Jewish people will have been brought about."

March 1940: "The Jew is a devil in human form. It is fitting that he
be exterminated root and branch."

September 1940: "Not for nothing did the Fuehrer say: 'A war in Europe
will  ring about the complete extermination of the Jews in this part
of the world.'"

November 1940: "The Jewish rabble will be exterminated like weeds and
vermin so that it can never again disturb the bloodily fought for
peace of the European peoples."

January 1941: "Now judgement has begun and it will reach its
conclusion only when knowledge of the Jews has been erased from the
earth."

August 1941: "Behind the German Wehrmacht, however, a new, awakened
Europe is marching. And this new Europe will see to it tat the Jewish
devils of the Soviet hell are annihilated for all time."

December 1941: "If the danger of reproduction of that curse of God in
Jewish blood is to finally come to its end, then there is only one
way: The extermination of that people whose father is the devil."

<>

November 1943: "It is actually true that the Jews have so to speak
disappeared from Europe and that the Jewish 'Reservoir of the East'
>from  which the Jewish perstilence has for centuries beset the peoples
of Europe, has ceased to exist. But the Fuehrer of the German people
at the beginning of the war prophesied what has now come to pass."

[quotes are from _Tyranny on Trial_ by Harris]

STREICHER: " . . . For his 25 years of speaking, writing and preaching
hatred of the Jews, Steicher was widely known as 'Jew-Baiter Number
1.' In his speeches and articles, week after week, month after month,
he infected the German people to active persecution . . . Streicher
had charge of the Jewish boycott of April 1, 1933. He advocated the
Nuremberg Decrees of 1935. He was responsible for the demolition on
August 10, 1938, of the synagogue in Nuremberg. And on November 10,
1938, he spoke publically in support of the Jewish pogroms which were
taking place at that time. But it was not only in Germany that this
defendent advocated his doctrines. As early as 1938 he began to call
for the annihilation of the Jewish race . . . With knowledge of the
extermination of the Jews in occupied Eastern Territories, this
defendant continued to write and publish his propaganda of death . .
Streicher's incitement to murder and extermination at the time when
Jews in the East were being killed under the most horrible conditions
clearly constitutes persecution on political and racial grounds in
connection with war crimes, as defined by the Charter, and constitutes
a crime against humanity.

Verdict: GUILTY on count 4
Sentence: Death by hanging.

[From _Nuremberg Diary_ By G.M. Gilbert, Farrar Straus, 1947, pp
442-443.]

Whether or not I agree with this verdict or not is an entirely
different issue. I do have to take into account the points made by
Bradley F. Smith in his _Reaching Judgement at Nuremberg_.


Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

For More Information try The Nizkor Project
Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From rblackmore@juno.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:34 PDT 1996
Article: 63463 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 7 Sep 1996 04:29:08 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <50qtmk$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <841956631snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ad68-117.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   Alexander Baron  writes:
>  In article <50jfda$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com> rblackmore@juno.com  writes:
>  
>  > .  I am not arguing whether Der Stuermer was filled
>  > with anti-Jewish verbiage.  This is a common fact.  I am asking for proof that
>  > Streicher printed pornography in a sexual sense, as is claimed by practically
>  > all of his detractors.  That is all I am asking:  Give us selections which prove> what he published was 
pornographic in a sexual sense, or admit that his 
>  > detractors have lied and published false and slanderous accusations.
>  
>  I don't think he did print porn in the modern sense; I think when the 
>  Exterminationist lobby refer to porn they mean lewd stuff or sexually
>  suggestive (ie Rassenschande). In a broad sense that is porn. According to
>  Professor Butz, Streicher once claimed in Stuermer that Goerring's daughter
>  had been fathered by artificial insemination. Most people would consider that
>  claim pornographic in a certain context.
>  
>  -- 
>  "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>  the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
>  
>>>>
I am familiar with the Goering/Streicher business.  However, this is not
pornography, but slander and libel.


From rblackmore@juno.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:34 PDT 1996
Article: 63467 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?,2-Mark Van Alstine's Strike 1
Date: 7 Sep 1996 22:26:40 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <50ssr0$19d@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <50scjd$fs8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ad02-031.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  In message <50h15v$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>  :>
>  
>  :>None of this is pornography, nor was anything you posted in your
>  :>previous response.  Are you suggesting that a person receive the
>  :>death sentence for what was quoted above?  Hugh Hefner-you
>  :>better start packing your bags!  Why don't any of you people just
>  :>have the decency to admit that Streicher never belonged at 
>  :>Nuremberg?
>  
>  What is it that you want people to "admit"?  That Streicher was not a
>  pornographer, as irrelevant to anything as that is?  That Streicher didn't
>  belong at Nuremberg, as irrelevant to anything as that is?
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Gord McFee
>  I'll write no line before its time
>  
>  
>>>>
You have answered your own questions.  RB


From rblackmore@juno.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:37 PDT 1996
Article: 63476 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:04:03 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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Message-ID: <50sv13$19d@juliana.sprynet.com>
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>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  (Irrelevant material by Curtis snipped)

For a reference to Streicher's writings see my "Streicher vs Ehrenburg post.
As for the rest, thank you for admitting your impotence in providing the 
required proof.  I couldn't have proved it better myself.  rb

"If you can't believe the messengers, how can you believe the message?"

Pleast visit: http://www.codoh.com/>
>  >>



From jfbe@vir.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:39 PDT 1996
Article: 63484 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!news.bconnex.net!clicnet!news.clic.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet
From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Goering Knew
Date: 8 Sep 1996 01:17:37 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <50t6rh$c2r@Vir.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne28.vir.com

rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
> >   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
> >  Extract from the interrogation of Higher SS and Police Leader Friedrich Jeckeln 
> >  (December 14, 1945):
> >  
> >  	
> 
> >  
> >  	Q: What statement would you like to make?
> 
> After the interrogaters remove their boots from his mouth, and the pins they stuck in
> his testicles...(Just a figure of speech...don't ask me to prove it, but based on the
> treatment of Hoess and others, this was probably the truth.)
> >  
> >  	A: I would like to state for the record that Goering shares in the guilt for 
> >  the liquidation of the Jewish convoys that arrived from other countries.  In the 
> >  first half of February 1942 I received a letter from Heyrich.  In this letter he wrote 
> >  that Reich Marshall Goering had gotten himself involved in teh Jewish question, 
> >  and that Jews were now being shipped to the East for annihilation only with 
> >  Goering's approval.
> >  
> >  	--quoted in Fleming "Hitler and the Final Solution"  pp. 96-7
> >  
> >>>>
> OK.  Now provide proof for these claims.  Anyone can accuse anyone.  He's a witch!
> She's a witch!  And soon the mob is howling, "Burn, witch, burn!"


  I've just read 'Nuremberg diary', written by this psychologist in
 Nuremberg (Gilbert) this afternoon were he reported the entertainment he had with
 the defendents of themain trials over weeks. Really aa claim that Goerring was 'aware'
 about a mass liquidation of Jews is ridicoulous. It is true that some of the defendants
 started to have doubts after the projection of atrocity movies but not Goerring. When
 Hoess testified however, even Goerring couldn't believe it and his attitude in private
 changed from denial to 'perhaps', but really he was obviously disturbed and his beha-
 viour showed that he was asking himself questions, without knowing really. Some others
 accepted Hoess testimony and believed that Himmler and Hitler did it
 alone (Frank among others). They couldn't know that Hoess was tortured, but Hoess had
 a big effect on several of them. Despite Frank's opinion is based on the strong impression
 that Hoess testimony did on him, we are told now that Frank 'knew' because he assumed
 a guilt feeling. In the context, Frank had an emotional shock and had already start,
 during his captivity, his catholic 'trip' were admissions of sins were the best way
 to be in agreement with God. However, since Frank's decision was based on Hoess testimony,
 this mean simply that he couldn't 'know' the 'gassing' during the war, but we are still
 given his diary as a proof of anything. 

   We are still present 'proofs' like Speer repentance as a proof of anything whatsover,
 while his post war attitude, like the one of the other defendants, was based mainly
 on Hoess testimony. They couldn't figure that torture of a threath to
 deport the familly of a SS in siberia were used since there only way to compare was
 their own treatment (except for Streicher). Hoess was totally apathic
 and had probably the hope to not be turn to the Russians. But you'll see, even if
 the proofs about Hoess treatment were posted here often and often they will still
 claim that it wasn't the case.

   It is a strange case that Himmler decided to constitute himself prisonner, was left
 alone (!) and 'suicided'. He was perfectly aware about the atrocity stories that were
 reported, the movie 'Holocaust' show him as if he had 'discovered' suddenly that the
 allied were aware about is involvment(!) while such atrocities and accusations were
 brought for months and that he commited a suicide because he had suddenly 'realized'
 that the allieds could accuse him of that! Anybody of a sane mind who studied a bit 
 this topic can see that he decided to constitute himself prisonner rather than to go
 in south america because he wanted to testify the truth. That is for
 Himmler 'suicide'.
 

 http://www.codoh.com/



From mcurtis@inetport.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:40 PDT 1996
Article: 63489 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 14:08:40 GMT
Reply-To: mcurtis@inetport.com
Message-ID: <3232ca12.2350973@news.inetport.com>
References: <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Mark Van Alstine rages:
>>  
>>  Again, I could care less how _you_ define pornography, Herr Schwarzmehr.
>
>It's not my definition.  It's the definition provided by Streicher's detractors, without
>any proof, as you have amply shown us. 

Again you ignore the opinions of his own friends AT THE TIME.

>In hot water?  Surely you jest!  A man was murdered for exercising his right
>to free speech. 

Nazi Germany did not have free speech. Quick to mind --> the White
Rose. How many people did Hitler have murdered for excerising their
right to free speech?


Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

For More Information try The Nizkor Project
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Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mcurtis@inetport.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:41 PDT 1996
Article: 63490 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 14:08:43 GMT
Reply-To: mcurtis@inetport.com
Message-ID: <3232cc6b.2952567@news.inetport.com>
References: <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> 
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

This is Bradley F. Smith and NOT Bradley R. Smith. It seems you may be
confusing the two. Or may it is that I don't know they are the same
person?

Bradley F. Smith wrote a pretty interesting book called _Reaching
Judgement at Nuremberg_ in 1977. He also had written _Adolf Hitler His
Family and Childhood_ in 1967 and _Heinrich Himmler, a Nazi in the
Making_ in 1971. It says he is an historian. How eminent he is I don't
know.

Whether the middle initials being different means anything, I wouldn't
know, but Telford Taylor takes Smith to task on page 640 of his book
_The Anatomy of the Nuemberg Trials_.

>In article <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
>
>> Well, does this mean that you concede defeat?  By the way, I read the entire
>> proceedings against Streicher at Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was
>absolutely
>> no justification for his execution, aside from the fact that he disliked
>Jews.  By the 
>> way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith happens to
>agree that
>> the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  
>
>EMINENT HISTORIAN Bradley Smith??!?!?!?!?
>
>And you think we should take you seriously?!?!
> 
>Really, Mr. Blackmore/Belling. Why not tell us who you ARE, then tell us
>what in the world makes Bradley Smith eminent?
> 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell

Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

For More Information try The Nizkor Project
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Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mcurtis@inetport.com Sun Sep  8 08:00:42 PDT 1996
Article: 63491 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 14:08:39 GMT
Reply-To: mcurtis@inetport.com
Message-ID: <3232c861.1918122@news.inetport.com>
References: <50o5df$1c42@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <50onqm$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>>  In message <50gtv0$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>  :>
>>  :>Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER:
>>  
>>  Herr Streicher would have been considered to be a pornographer by the societal
>>  standards of his day, which is about the best one can do.  In any event, Mr.
>>  Blackmore, whether or not Streicher was a pornographer is irrelevant. --
>>  Gord McFee
>>  I'll write no line before its time
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>I agree that it was irrelevant to Nuremberg, but not to the gist of my post,
> for the following reason:  In my initial post, I had 
>indicated that I had read an accusation directed against Streicher
>by a number of respected authors.  The most often repeated slander
>was that Streicher was a pornographer, and his publications were filled
>with pornography, in a sexual sense.  It was repeated so often and so 
>vigorously, that I decided to research the subject further.  The result?
>I could find nothing which could be termed pornographic. 

To bad it failed to to get you off. I find it hilarious that you also
dismiss descriptions not just from historians, but by people of his
own time and in his own party. Truly amazing the historical integrity
you display when confronted with this subject and the explanations of
it. One plus is that you FINALLY admit that the pornographic business
was NOT germain to charges at the IMT. I appluad you.

> Nor could
>I find any evidence that Streicher was ever so charged in any courts
>during the Weimar republic.

Who said he was?

> directly responsible for anyone's death.  Subsequently, I arrived at the
> conclusion that Streicher was simply murdered out of revenge relating 
>to his anti-Semitic opinions and  writings.  I do not think the sentence was
>just.  

Good for you!



Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

For More Information try The Nizkor Project
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From joelr@winternet.com Sun Sep  8 17:23:30 PDT 1996
Article: 63583 of alt.revisionism
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From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960908: What is it with those liberals?
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:28:37
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In article  zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) writes:

>One good advantage of doing a daily column is that it focuses your mind
>wonderfully - which is also true, it is claimed, of a villain about to be
>hanged.

I guess you should have asked your friend Streicher about that.  


---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.


From rblackmore@juno.com Sun Sep  8 17:23:38 PDT 1996
Article: 63606 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:40:03 GMT
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Has anyone noticed how the affirmers will not touch the post
"STREICHER vs EHRENBURG" with a 10 foot pole?  Might
elicit some awkward philosophical premises.


From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Sep  8 17:23:42 PDT 1996
Article: 63624 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 8 Sep 1996 22:34:29 GMT
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <50vhll$43o0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: <50f48r$asf@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50m008$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com> <50n748$bq7@lendl.cc.emory.edu><50f48r$asf@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50m008$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com> <50n748$bq7@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50oumd$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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In message <50oumd$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> - mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
 Giwer) writes:
:>
:>On 5 Sep 1996 18:45:28 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
:>anderson) wrote:

[deleted]

:>	Read what Steicher wrote.  Measure the size of your erection.  Report
:>upon its pornographic nature.  

A strange definition of pornography, but given the source, one shouldn't be
surprised.

:>
:>	It may be a lot of things but it is not pornography ...
:>
:>	unless ...
:>
:>	my early speculation that all forms of expression of death, violence,
:>blood and the like are a perverted turn-on to holohuggers and that is
:>why they wax rhapsodic when discussing the way people died.  
:>
:>	That is the only explanation for considering such writings
:>pornographic, exciting a purient interest.  
:>
:>	Holohuggers are very strange people.  

It just gets sicker and sicker and sicker.



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Sep  8 17:23:43 PDT 1996
Article: 63625 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 8 Sep 1996 22:34:34 GMT
Lines: 32
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In message  -
schwartz@infinet.comFri, 06 Sep 1996 12:39:53 -0400 writes:
:>
:>In article <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
:>
:>
:>> Well, does this mean that you concede defeat?  By the way, I read the entire
:>> proceedings against Streicher at Nuremberg...Needless to say, there was
:>absolutely
:>> no justification for his execution, aside from the fact that he disliked
:>Jews.  By the 
:>> way, did you know that the eminent historian Bradley F. Smith happens to
:>agree that
:>> the case against Streicher was ridiculous?  
:>
:>EMINENT HISTORIAN Bradley Smith??!?!?!?!?
:>
:>And you think we should take you seriously?!?!
:> 
:>Really, Mr. Blackmore/Belling. Why not tell us who you ARE, then tell us
:>what in the world makes Bradley Smith eminent?

Sara, I believe he is referring to Professor Bradley F. Smith, the historian
who wrote _Judgement at Nuremberg_.  I forget the other Bradley Smith's middle
initial.



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  8 20:05:21 PDT 1996
Article: 63643 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Wrong audience
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:37:21 GMT
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	This guy really should have written for National Lampoon in the old
days.  

======

       So these quotes served to condemn Streicher to death?
     
        Inge sits in the Jew doctor's reception room.  She has to 
wait a long time.  She looks through the magazines on the table.  
But she is much too nervous even to read a few sentences.  Again 
and again she remembers her talk with her mother.  And again and 
again her mind dwells on the warnings of her B D M leader: 'A 
German must not consult a Jew doctor!  And particularly not a 
German girl! Many a girl who has gone to a Jew doctor to be cured 
has found disease and disgrace!' 

	[B D M:  Bondage, Discipline, Masochism, right?  Have to work
something pornographic into this.]  

     After entering the waiting-room, Inge had an extraordinary 
experience.  From the doctor's consulting-room she could hear the 
sound of crying.  She heard the voice of a young girl: 'Doctor, 
doctor, leave me alone!' Then she heard a man laughing 
scornfully.  And then all of a sudden, absolute silence. 

	[Laughing just like those pilots straffing wagons of Jews.  Not just
like, this is scornfully not manically.]  

     Inge held her breath and listened.  'What can this mean ?' 
she asked herself and her heart was pounding.  Once again she 
thought of her B D M leader's warning.  Inge has now been waiting 
for an hour.  She takes up the magazines again and tries to read.  

     The door opens.  Inge looks up.  There stands the Jew.  She 
screams. 

     She's so frightened, she drops the magazine.  She jumps up 
in terror.  Her eyes stare into the Jewish doctor's face.  His 
face is the face of a devil.  In the middle of this devil's face 
is a huge crooked nose.  Behind the spectacles two criminal eyes.  
And the thick lips are grinning.  A grin that says: 'Now I've got 
you at last, little German girl!' 

     The Jew approaches her.  His fleshy fingers stretch out for 
her.  But now Inge has recovered her wits. Before the Jew can 
grab hold of her, she slaps the Jew doctor's fat face.  Then a 
jump to the door, and Inge runs breathlessly down the stairs.  
She escapes breathlessly from the Jew house...." (Noakes, 
468-470)

=====

	It is a great parody.
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Than when your stealing

There's no business like Shoah business
It's like no business I know
Everything about it is misleading
Everything about it seems a fraud
Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading
For more donations to their cause






From qut@netcom.com Sun Sep  8 20:05:24 PDT 1996
Article: 63649 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
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From: qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
Subject: Re: 960908: What is it with those liberals?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Order of Berkeley California
References:  
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:58:53 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2824 alt.revisionism:63649

In  joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:

! In article  zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) writes:
! 
! >One good advantage of doing a daily column is that it focuses your mind
! >wonderfully - which is also true, it is claimed, of a villain about to be
! >hanged.
! 
! I guess you should have asked your friend Streicher about that.  
Fuckhead.  You mean one line rebuttals are enough?


From libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu Sun Sep  8 22:15:08 PDT 1996
Article: 63685 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 8 Sep 1996 04:02:47 GMT
Organization: Emory University
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <50tgh7$ce3@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:

: There are several historians whoi have studied Nuremberg who disagree with
: some of the sentences, Professor Smith being one of them.  The most common
: sentences cited tend to be those meted out to Streicher, Jodl, and Sauckel,
: and the sentence *not* meted out to Speer.
: 
: What make Streicher so difficult was that he was so loathsome and probably
: best represented Hitler's perverted antisemitism among the "big-wigs" still
: alive.  I still feel he was tried as an ersatz Hitler, much as Fritzsche was
: an ersatz Goebbels.  A person who so happily and at great profit exploited
: millions of young children with his disgusting rubbish is nonetheless
: difficult to pity.
: 
: For what it is worth, and with respect to those who see it otherwise, I do not
: feel the death penalty was appropriate in Streicher's case.  I say this
: especially since he had no executive power after 1940.

I actually agree with Gord here--although it's not the case that
Streicher was executed merely for "expressing his opinion."

Bill


From libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu Sun Sep  8 22:15:10 PDT 1996
Article: 63686 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 8 Sep 1996 04:04:01 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
: >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:

: >  Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
: >  while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
: >  sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
: >  announced that it gave him an orgasm.
: 
: -Different strokes for different folks....

Mr. Blackmore, did you intend to strip yourself of all credibility 
with that remark, or are you just stupid?

Bill


From rblackmore@juno.com Mon Sep  9 08:19:24 PDT 1996
Article: 63707 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: 5 Sep 1996 08:51:12 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 28
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>   Brian Harmon  writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > Isn't it a fact that a group of rabbinical students
>  > attempted to assassinate Spinoza by stabbing
>  > him in the back, simply because of his beliefs
>  > and what he wrote?
>  
>  Who cares?  I thought we were discussing 
>   holocaust revisionism.
>  
>  What rabbinical students do or do not do is
>   beside the point.
>  
>  ...unless you'd rather talk about them nasty joos...
>  
>  Brian Harmon 
>  ==========================
>  brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu
>  
>>>>
Give me a break.  I don't give a damn aboout the nasty jooos, as you 
put it.  I'm not hung up about the "conspiratorial jooooos, much as you
would like me to be.  If you had a brain in your head, you would put 2 and
2 together and realize why I posted the Spinoza comments. Next time you
decide to jump in on a debate, research it first.

For a breath of fresh air, see: http://www.codoh.com/


From rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca Mon Sep  9 08:19:26 PDT 1996
Article: 63713 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!rajiv_gandhi
From: rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 22:48:07 -0800
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In article <50m4a0$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

> Give me a break.  I don't give a damn aboout the nasty jooos, as you 
> put it.  I'm not hung up about the "conspiratorial jooooos, much as you
> would like me to be. 

[snip]

Of course, that's why you made groundless accusations against the Simon
Wiesenthal Center.


From rblackmore.com Mon Sep  9 08:19:31 PDT 1996
Article: 63731 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 7 Sep 1996 22:24:43 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 40
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>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  
>  One example of Streicher's idea of a good time is the following:
>  
>  [begin quote]
>  
>  Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
>  while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
>  sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
>  announced that it gave him an orgasm.

-Different strokes for different folks....


  [end quote] [Airey Neave, _Nuremberg_, Coronet Books, 1978, page 91.

>  There are several historians whoi have studied Nuremberg who disagree with
>  some of the sentences, Professor Smith being one of them.  The most common
>  sentences cited tend to be those meted out to Streicher, Jodl, and Sauckel,
>  and the sentence *not* meted out to Speer.
>  
>  What make Streicher so difficult was that he was so loathsome and probably
>  best represented Hitler's perverted antisemitism among the "big-wigs" still
>  alive.  I still feel he was tried as an ersatz Hitler, much as Fritzsche was
>  an ersatz Goebbels.  A person who so happily and at great profit exploited
>  millions of young children with his disgusting rubbish is nonetheless
>  difficult to pity.
>  
>  For what it is worth, and with respect to those who see it otherwise, I do not
>  feel the death penalty was appropriate in Streicher's case.  I say this
>  especially since he had no executive power after 1940.
>  
>Finally, I receive a proper response to a posting which has been running far too long.-RB
>  --
>  Gord McFee
>  I'll write no line before its time
>  
>  
>>>>



From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Sep  9 08:19:34 PDT 1996
Article: 63738 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:14:11 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <50m4u4$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

> I have to confess to you that I am not in the least bit interested in 
> Streicher's sex life. 

Why do I doubt you, Herr Schwarzesel?  You seem to be rather concerned
about Streicher's pornographic "hobbies." Why is that? 

> I don't care what other people thought about him; 

A hollow claim, Herr Schwarzesel, Nazi hero worshippers are often _very_
concerned in white-washing their Nazi heroes. They tend to construct rich
(and wildly innacurate) fantasies about their heroes and their dispicable
deeds.... Your obsession with Streicher, for instance, is a case in
point.  

> ...whether they loved him or whether they despised him; the only thing that 
> I am concerned with is how do any of these writings and opinions of his 
> justify the imposition of the death penalty?

Herr Schwarzesel, perhaps you could regain a modicum of rationality for a
moment and realize that Streicher _wasn't_ convicted and executed for
publishing pornagraphy, but for inciteting the German people with racial
hatred against the Jews and calling for their deaths? 

Your obsession (there is no other term for it, really) in asserting that
Streicher was executed for publishing pornography is nothing more than a
transparent red herring used in your (rather boring) attempts at Nazi
apologia. 

Get a life, Herr Schwarzesel. You badly need it. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rblackmore@juno.com Mon Sep  9 13:18:10 PDT 1996
Article: 63796 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: 7 Sep 1996 04:15:54 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 7
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>   Alexander Baron  writes:

"try replacing the word Jews with white race. or something similar, to 
which I reply:
> 

I am not a racist.  Why are you directing these comments to me?  


From amcl@netcomuk.co.uk Mon Sep  9 13:18:15 PDT 1996
Article: 63818 of alt.revisionism
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From: amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M. McLellan)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 16:21:28 GMT
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In article <50t14j$19d@juliana.sprynet.com>
rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Has anyone noticed how the affirmers will not touch the post
>"STREICHER vs EHRENBURG" with a 10 foot pole?  Might
>elicit some awkward philosophical premises.

What is an affirmer ? 

It seems that Blackmore/Belling is referring to a previous post,
<50lh7u$k36@juliana.sprynet.com>, parts of which are quoted below,
such parts as appear being reformatted but otherwise unchanged..

[Of Ilya Ehrenburg]
>His articles and broadcasts to Soviet citizens and troops referred 
>to the Germans in the following terms: "Pest-carrying rats", "berserk 
>wolves", "Cannibals", "two-legged beasts", "Monsters", "wild beasts", 
>"aryan beasts", "murdering scorpions", 'rats", "pillaging beasts", 
>"lousy curs".  
>Further exhortations include:  "We intend to simply exterminate them. 
>(The  Germans) It has fallen upon us, to fulfill this humanitarian mission.  
>We are simply continuing the work of Pasteur, who discovered the 
>Serum against rabies. We are continuing the work of all scientific 
>researchers, who discovered the means of exterminating deadly 
>microbes..."...and finally, "kill all Germans".  
>(Vorsicht, Faelschung, pg. 95, 398, FZ-Verlag, Munich, 1994)

Since Herr Streicher was not executed publishing his tasteless rag,
the analogy presented by Blackmore/Belling is somewhat flawed. That
is, however, just the beginning.

Can Blackmore/Belling say when Ilya Ehrenburg (and others, including
Surkov quoted below) wrote their Germanophobic rants ? 

Bearing in mind that the USSR was a police state of far more
totalitarian stamp than Hitler's Germany, it would be fair to say that
Ehrenburg et al did not sloganeer of their own accord. Orders from
"the Boss" set off the torrent of venom from the summer of 1942
onwards says John Erickson. Ehrenburg et al were merely propagandists,
like "Paul Carrell". Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Carrell" was very
much alive and unimprisoned post-war, passing his time writing  ill-
researched and highly dubious histories of WWII.

Continuing the analogy game, does Blackmore/Belling suggest that US
propagandists in WWII who dehumanized "the Japs" should have been
tried as war criminals ? Should Eisenstein have been arraigned for the
anti-German "Alexander Nevsky" and Cavalcanti or Greene for "Went the
Day Well" ?

Angus

"My heart is as hard as stone. 
I hate them deeply.
My house has been defiled by Prussians, 
Their drunken laughter dims my reason.
And with these hands of mine, 
I want to strangle every one of them."
Alexei Surkov, "I Hate"



From amcl@netcomuk.co.uk Mon Sep  9 13:22:47 PDT 1996
Article: 63818 of alt.revisionism
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From: amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M. McLellan)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 16:21:28 GMT
Organization: NETCOM Internet Ltd.
Lines: 59
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In article <50t14j$19d@juliana.sprynet.com>
rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Has anyone noticed how the affirmers will not touch the post
>"STREICHER vs EHRENBURG" with a 10 foot pole?  Might
>elicit some awkward philosophical premises.

What is an affirmer ? 

It seems that Blackmore/Belling is referring to a previous post,
<50lh7u$k36@juliana.sprynet.com>, parts of which are quoted below,
such parts as appear being reformatted but otherwise unchanged..

[Of Ilya Ehrenburg]
>His articles and broadcasts to Soviet citizens and troops referred 
>to the Germans in the following terms: "Pest-carrying rats", "berserk 
>wolves", "Cannibals", "two-legged beasts", "Monsters", "wild beasts", 
>"aryan beasts", "murdering scorpions", 'rats", "pillaging beasts", 
>"lousy curs".  
>Further exhortations include:  "We intend to simply exterminate them. 
>(The  Germans) It has fallen upon us, to fulfill this humanitarian mission.  
>We are simply continuing the work of Pasteur, who discovered the 
>Serum against rabies. We are continuing the work of all scientific 
>researchers, who discovered the means of exterminating deadly 
>microbes..."...and finally, "kill all Germans".  
>(Vorsicht, Faelschung, pg. 95, 398, FZ-Verlag, Munich, 1994)

Since Herr Streicher was not executed publishing his tasteless rag,
the analogy presented by Blackmore/Belling is somewhat flawed. That
is, however, just the beginning.

Can Blackmore/Belling say when Ilya Ehrenburg (and others, including
Surkov quoted below) wrote their Germanophobic rants ? 

Bearing in mind that the USSR was a police state of far more
totalitarian stamp than Hitler's Germany, it would be fair to say that
Ehrenburg et al did not sloganeer of their own accord. Orders from
"the Boss" set off the torrent of venom from the summer of 1942
onwards says John Erickson. Ehrenburg et al were merely propagandists,
like "Paul Carrell". Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Carrell" was very
much alive and unimprisoned post-war, passing his time writing  ill-
researched and highly dubious histories of WWII.

Continuing the analogy game, does Blackmore/Belling suggest that US
propagandists in WWII who dehumanized "the Japs" should have been
tried as war criminals ? Should Eisenstein have been arraigned for the
anti-German "Alexander Nevsky" and Cavalcanti or Greene for "Went the
Day Well" ?

Angus

"My heart is as hard as stone. 
I hate them deeply.
My house has been defiled by Prussians, 
Their drunken laughter dims my reason.
And with these hands of mine, 
I want to strangle every one of them."
Alexei Surkov, "I Hate"



From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Mon Sep  9 14:45:04 PDT 1996
Article: 63875 of alt.revisionism
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK ITS NAME
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 18:13:29 GMT
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In article 
           karlpov@access5.digex.net "Charles R.L. Power" writes:

> rblackmore@juno.com writes:
> 
> >Has anyone noticed how the affirmers will not touch the post
> >"STREICHER vs EHRENBURG" with a 10 foot pole?  Might
> >elicit some awkward philosophical premises.

Ilya Ehrenburg: "No longer do we say: $Good morning$ or $Good night$. In the morning we say: 
$Kill a German$, and in the evening: $Kill a German$.
Books, love, the stars no longer matter. The only thing that matters is to 
kill the Germans. To kill them all. To bury them...For us there is nothing 
more beautiful than German corpses. $Kill a German!$ - this is what the old 
mother begs of you. $Kill a German!$ - this is what a child implores. 
Germans are not human beings. Germans are biped animals, disgusting creatures,
 beasts. Germans are amoebae, soulless microbes, but equipped with machines, guns, mortars.
If you have killed one German, kill another - nothing gladdens us more 
than German corpses."  


-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy


From gmcfee@ibm.net Tue Sep 10 07:17:39 PDT 1996
Article: 63988 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?,2-Mark Van Alstine's Strike 1
Date: 9 Sep 1996 17:54:11 GMT
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In message <50ssr0$19d@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com7 Sep 1996
22:26:40 GMT writes:
:>
:>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
:>>  In message <50h15v$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
:>>  :>
:>>  
:>>  :>None of this is pornography, nor was anything you posted in your
:>>  :>previous response.  Are you suggesting that a person receive the
:>>  :>death sentence for what was quoted above?  Hugh Hefner-you
:>>  :>better start packing your bags!  Why don't any of you people just
:>>  :>have the decency to admit that Streicher never belonged at 
:>>  :>Nuremberg?
:>>  
:>>  What is it that you want people to "admit"?  That Streicher was not a
:>>  pornographer, as irrelevant to anything as that is?  That Streicher didn't
:>>  belong at Nuremberg, as irrelevant to anything as that is?

:>You have answered your own questions.

No, I have identified your questions.  It is up to others to answer them.

For what it is worth, I have already posted that I disagree with Streicher's
sentence and with those of some others.  I do not however feel they did not
deserve to be tried and convicted at Nuremberg.  They most certainly did.



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From gmcfee@ibm.net Tue Sep 10 07:17:43 PDT 1996
Article: 63998 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 10 Sep 1996 03:40:08 GMT
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In message <50qslu$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com7 Sep 1996
04:11:42 GMT writes:
:>
:>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
 
:>
:>>  :>In the 30s and 40s, pictures of Bettie Page in her underwear were
:>>  :>considered absolutely obscene and extremely pornographic. Now they're put
:>>  :>into calendars and sold in comic books stores.
:>>  
:>>  I would only add that the pictures and descriptions from _Der Stuermer_ would
:>>  certainly be considered as pornographic by those standards.

:>>  
:>>>>>
:>This explanation is really pretty lame, sir.  I maintain that pornography is not
:>Bettie Page in her underwear-that is shocking and salacious.  Pornography
:>is quite different, and it makes little difference if it appears in 1942 or 1,000 years
:>BC.  The wall paintings at Pompeii were considered pornographic-and still are.
:>This is beyond the pale of discussion.  Fact is, Streicher was accused of writing
:>pornography in a sexual sense, FILTH, if you will, not Bettie Page in her under-
:>wear.  The accusation is a lie and slander.  Fact is, Streicher was never charged 
:>in a German Court for publishing pornography.  God knows, enough people were
:>out to shut him out of business.....You all have failed and your recalcitrance on
:>admitting the truth leaves you no options. As I wrote in an earlier posts:  if this
:>story is discredited, as it has been, what will one day happen with your gas chambers?
:>Back then, they weren't really regarded as gas chambers, they were really only showers.

Good heavens, Mr. Blackmore, try to contain yourself.  It was not I who used
the Bettie Page analogy--please re-check the attributions.  I simply said that
Streicher's _Stuermer_ articles would be judged as pornographic by the
standards of his day.  And well they would be, and well they were, as the
quote from the Bytwerk book I posted proves.  In fact, Germans of the day
referred to him as the "Reichspornograph", the Reich pornographer. 

I am not sure what accusation you are claiming is a lie and a slander.  I made
no accusation; I reported a historical fact and gave the reference for it.

But I do see the source of your temper tantrum.  You are trying to claim that
someone claimed Streicher had been convicted of pornography (no one made such
a claim--you demanded it as "proof" of God knows what), and that if that can't
be proved, the gas chamber stories might become suspect.  There are so many
logical fallacies in that approach that the mind truly boggles.


--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 07:17:56 PDT 1996
Article: 64061 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 10 Sep 1996 10:01:01 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 33
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References: <3232ca12.2350973@news.inetport.com>
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>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >Mark Van Alstine rages:
>  >>  
>  >>  Again, I could care less how _you_ define pornography, Herr Schwarzmehr.
>  >
>  >It's not my definition.  It's the definition provided by Streicher's detractors, without
>  >any proof, as you have amply shown us. 
>  
>  Again you ignore the opinions of his own friends AT THE TIME.
>  
>  >In hot water?  Surely you jest!  A man was murdered for exercising his right
>  >to free speech. 
>  
>  Nazi Germany did not have free speech. Quick to mind --> the White
>  Rose. How many people did Hitler have murdered for excerising their
>  right to free speech?
>  
>  
>  Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>  
>  For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>  Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>  Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>  Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>  Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>  
>>>>
I won't discuss the activities of the White Rose under a Streicher post.  If you want
to discuss it elsewhere, repost it.  Besides, the activities of the white rose were 
considered treason during war-time.  People were and are executed for treason.  Private
Slovik was executed for desertion.  Times were rough.


From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 07:17:58 PDT 1996
Article: 64068 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 10 Sep 1996 10:07:50 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <50r7s0$on2@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  > >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  > >  In article <50lo7t$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com
>  wrote and van alstine responded:
>  > >  
>  >
snip
>
Where are the court records proving that Streicher was tried and convicted of
publishing pornography?  All the rest of your comments are balderdash and 
double-talk.



From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:00 PDT 1996
Article: 64072 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JBellng is still a troll... Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 10 Sep 1996 09:04:38 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <50t048$19d@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  > >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>  
>See above. (You still didn't answer the question though, Herr Schwarzesel.) 

Yes, I did answer the Hoess Eichmann question.  My answer is that I referred you
back to Gandi.

  You alluded, Herr Schwarzesel, that Ho"ss's was kicked in the teeth and
>  > >  had pins stuck in his testicles by his interrogaters? What is your source
>  > >  for this is, Herr Schwarzesel? Or are you simply lying through your teeth?

No, I didn't allude to any such thing.  Go back and read my initial remarks.

>  Oh, I see. You were being a malicious twit then? Sorry, Herr Schwarzesel,
>  your excuse is not accepted. You made allusions that Ho"ss was tortured,
>  that he was kicked in the teeth and had pins stuck in his testicles by his
>  interrogaters. Your recanting of your "figure of speech" sounds more like
>  some serious backpedaling, Herr Schwarzesel. This of course, makes the
>  prospect that you were maliciously lying all the more probable. 

And to think they used to call Thomas Aquinas "the dumb ox"!

 It is
>  quite amusing that you consistantly fail to support your "arguments" with
>  nothing more than your Nazi fantasies and then claim "victory" before you
>  scuttle away, refusing to own up to the written excrement you leave
>  behind. 

Well, Mark, I have to leave something for you to snack on.

  Excellent, Herr Schwarzesel. You have provided the title: "Mengele, the
>  man and his crimes." When was this program broadcast? 

If you had a brain in your head which could correlate and absorb information, you
would have read that I provided the title ages ago.  If you want to know when it was broadcast,
contact the Discovery Channel.  And when you find out that my information is correct,
(It always is) then I will take satisfaction on the day when you come crawling back here
with your ego well tucked up within your hemorroidal backside.  Do you hear laughter,
Ramses?  In all honesty, Streicher's  writings sound like Mother Teresa's prayers compared to
your filthy droppings.

 So far, Herr Schwarzesel, you have demonstrated nothing more than your
>  intellectual dishonesty, and your habit of bellyaching and breaking wind
>  with your mouth when asked to support your outlandish Nazi apologia and
>  hero-worship with factual evidence.

What planet are you living on, fool?  We'll let the browsers decide whether or not I
post my sources.  I also invite web browsers to research all my posts on Dejanews
to either confirm or utterly confound Mark Van Alstine's diarrheal droolings.
 Keep up thegood work Quatschmeister.  And as to you comments about me
 "having the burden of proof", I have no "burden" of proof.   Unlike you, who
 seem to have been burdened with fecal matter for brains.


From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:01 PDT 1996
Article: 64074 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME
Date: 10 Sep 1996 11:23:52 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <513j48$9nj@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
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>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>  I have actually responded to the "STREICHER vs EHRENBURG"
>  posted by "rblackmore" (aka "jbellings").
>  
>  While Ehrenburg's anti-German writing was indeed violent
>  and hateful, it was directed at an enemy that invaded his
>  country, regarded its citizens as "sub-human", and butchered
>  huge numbers of civilians and POW's.
>  
>  Streicher, on the other hand, attacked and called to
>  murder a small, unarmed, unprotected minority which was
>  not guilty of any crime.
>  
>  
>  -Danny Keren.
>  
>  
>>>>
This reasoning is unacceptable.  Both called for the annihilation of civilians completely
innocent of any crimes.  And on both sides it was indeed the civilians who suffered.  And
both of them considered their incitements justified.  They were two peas in a pod.  But
in my opinion, Ehrenburg bears the greater guilt, because his messages were sent directly
to the people who counted-the bearers of arms.  And it was their fury, prompted and
encouraged by Ehrenburg, which resulted in incalculabe loss of innocent life.  On the
other hand, Streicher was a virtual outcast within his own community and even among
his own peers.  His influence was limited to an impotent group of old anti-Semites who had 
probably been subscribing to his rag for years.  In fact, subscriptions to the Stuermer dropped
by as much as 300,000 during the war years.  


From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:05 PDT 1996
Article: 64094 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?,2-Mark Van Alstine's Strike 1
Date: 10 Sep 1996 10:51:20 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 39
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References: <511lk3$16fe@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  In message <50ssr0$19d@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com7 Sep 1996
>  22:26:40 GMT writes:
>  :>
>  :>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  :>>  In message <50h15v$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>  :>>  :>
>  :>>  
>  :>>  :>None of this is pornography, nor was anything you posted in your
>  :>>  :>previous response.  Are you suggesting that a person receive the
>  :>>  :>death sentence for what was quoted above?  Hugh Hefner-you
>  :>>  :>better start packing your bags!  Why don't any of you people just
>  :>>  :>have the decency to admit that Streicher never belonged at 
>  :>>  :>Nuremberg?
>  :>>  
>  :>>  What is it that you want people to "admit"?  That Streicher was not a
>  :>>  pornographer, as irrelevant to anything as that is?  That Streicher didn't
>  :>>  belong at Nuremberg, as irrelevant to anything as that is?
>  
>  :>You have answered your own questions.
>  
>  No, I have identified your questions.  It is up to others to answer them.
>  
>  For what it is worth, I have already posted that I disagree with Streicher's
>  sentence and with those of some others.  I do not however feel they did not
>  deserve to be tried and convicted at Nuremberg.  They most certainly did.
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Gord McFee
>  I'll write no line before its time
>  
>  
>>>>
Thank you for your comments.  I also happen to feel that a trial was in order-but not
conducted by the victors over the vanquished.  If the Germans are considered per-
fectly capable of trying their "war criminals" today, they were also capable of trying
them in 1945.  Or, if not them, then neutral powers.


From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:06 PDT 1996
Article: 64095 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME
Date: 10 Sep 1996 11:14:29 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <513iil$9nj@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <511g15$d6r@morgana.netcom.net.uk>
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>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote
>  
>  What is an affirmer ? 

The opposite of a "denier".
> 
>  [Of Ilya Ehrenburg]
>  
(snip)
>  
>   Can Blackmore/Belling say when Ilya Ehrenburg (and others, including
>  Surkov quoted below) wrote their Germanophobic rants ? 
>  
>  (snip)
>  Continuing the analogy game, does Blackmore/Belling suggest that US
>  propagandists in WWII who dehumanized "the Japs" should have been
>  tried as war criminals ? Should Eisenstein have been arraigned for the
>  anti-German "Alexander Nevsky" and Cavalcanti or Greene for "Went the
>  Day Well" ?
>  
>  Angus
>  
>  "My heart is as hard as stone. 
>  I hate them deeply.
>  My house has been defiled by Prussians, 
>  Their drunken laughter dims my reason.
>  And with these hands of mine, 
>  I want to strangle every one of them."
>  Alexei Surkov, "I Hate"
>  
>  
>>>>
Thank you for providing additional documentation to support
 my contention that Streicher did not deserve to be tried at Nuremberg
 for doing what everyone else was doing, even though it appears to be 
inadverdent on your part..  Also, Ehrenburg propagandized throughout
 the entire war.  Read what he has to say about the role he played in
 his own words.  You should find a number
of books written by him at your library.


From libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu Tue Sep 10 11:35:48 PDT 1996
Article: 64127 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 10 Sep 1996 13:45:38 GMT
Organization: Emory University
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

: I won't discuss the activities of the White Rose under a Streicher 
: post.  If you want to discuss it elsewhere, repost it.  Besides, the 
: activities of the white rose were considered treason during war-time.  
: People were and are executed for treason.

No, wait--this just became relevant to the Streicher thread.  The 
members of the White Rose, Mr. Blackmore, did nothing more than 
express their opinion; that opinion was considered treasonous, and
they were executed.  In your view, Streicher did nothing more than
express his opinion; that opinion was considered an incitement to
murder, and he was hanged for it.  If you're going to support one
and deplore the other, you're going to have to do it on other than
legal grounds.

Bill


From bodhi@sattva.org Tue Sep 10 15:03:36 PDT 1996
Article: 64186 of alt.revisionism
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From: bodhi@sattva.org (Bodhisattva)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:43:43 -0600
Organization: Molecular
Lines: 10
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References: <50ji45$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.126.8.105

In article <50ji45$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> Isn't it a fact that a group of rabbinical students
> attempted to assassinate Spinoza by stabbing 
> him in the back, simply because of his beliefs
> and what he wrote?

Have you ever read Spinoza?

I didn't think so.


From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 15:03:38 PDT 1996
Article: 64190 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK ITS NAME
Date: 10 Sep 1996 11:02:40 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <513hsg$9nj@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
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>   karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>  
>  >Has anyone noticed how the affirmers will not touch the post
>  >"STREICHER vs EHRENBURG" with a 10 foot pole?  Might
>  >elicit some awkward philosophical premises.
>  
>  Possibly because no one gives diddly about Ilya Ehrenburg, whose 
>  survival through the Stalinist era speaks rather badly for him by 
>  itself. BTW, where did you garner your Ehrenburg quotes? Primary 
>  or secondary sources?
>  
>  As for Streicher, as many have pointed out, his contemporaries
>  seem to have called him a pornographer on a number of occasions.
>  That of course does not mean that we would call him a pornographer
>  today, with rather different community standards. I don't know
>  where I could find a representative selection from his periodical
>  in original or translation to check out the charge, nor do I see
>  why this is necessary. Why don't you quote the Nurenberg indictment
>  and simply argue whether it was accurate? This enormous flurry of
>  messages, mostly from your keyboard, seems rather a waste of time.
>  
>>>>
It may indeed be a waste of time.  Most are replies to replies, so others have
certainly kept the thread going.  The Ehrenburg quotes were both primary and
secondary sources, and there are many more where they came from.  Concerning
Streicher, I have one final post relating to this, which I have held in reserve and
will post soon.  There was a reason for it.  First I had to see if the fish would snap
at the bait-they did.


From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 15:03:41 PDT 1996
Article: 64201 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 10 Sep 1996 09:58:14 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <513e3m$9nj@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <50tgh7$ce3@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
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>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
>  
>  : There are several historians whoi have studied Nuremberg who disagree with
>  : some of the sentences, Professor Smith being one of them.  The most common
>  : sentences cited tend to be those meted out to Streicher, Jodl, and Sauckel,
>  : and the sentence *not* meted out to Speer.
>  : 
>  : What make Streicher so difficult was that he was so loathsome and probably
>  : best represented Hitler's perverted antisemitism among the "big-wigs" still
>  : alive.  I still feel he was tried as an ersatz Hitler, much as Fritzsche was
>  : an ersatz Goebbels.  A person who so happily and at great profit exploited
>  : millions of young children with his disgusting rubbish is nonetheless
>  : difficult to pity.
>  : 
>  : For what it is worth, and with respect to those who see it otherwise, I do not
>  : feel the death penalty was appropriate in Streicher's case.  I say this
>  : especially since he had no executive power after 1940.
>  
>  I actually agree with Gord here--although it's not the case that
>  Streicher was executed merely for "expressing his opinion."
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
I believe that the records of the trial DO indicate that Streicher was indeed
executed for expressing his loathesome opinions, because the case made
for Streicher KNOWING that Jews were being exterminated rested upon very
shakey ground.


From rblackmore@juno.com Tue Sep 10 19:06:46 PDT 1996
Article: 64265 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 7 Sep 1996 07:29:43 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <50r897$on2@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <50o5e4$1c42@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  In message <50gv8b$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>  :>
>  :>The following is a reply to Mr. McVay's poor attempt
>  :>to provide evidence that Julius Streicher was a
>  :>purveyor of Pornography.  For his response, see
>  :>his posting as part of the thread under:
>  :>Julius Streicher2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  :>
>  :>Are you suggesting that Streicher fabricated all these accusations, or
>  :>were they accusations directing against the Jews from various sources,
>  :>courts, etc., over the years.  Even after Streicher's death, the blood accu-
>  :>sation was leveled against the Jews in Kielce, Poland in 1946?, and Messina,
>  :>New York.  Streicher had nothing to do with these cases.  Aside from 
>  :>deliberately changing the subject again, you have NOT provided evidence
>  :>for my inquiry....You mean you don't have it?!? 
>  
>  "Even the citizens of the zthird Reich jokingly called him the
>  _Reichspornograph_, the national pornographer."  (Bytwerk, _Julius Streicher_,
>  pages 48-49).
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Gord McFee
>  I'll write no line before its time
>  
>  
>>>>
That's good.  Let's deal with that.  In what court was Streicher ever charged and
convicted as a pornographer?  Also, we are all waiting for examples of the so-called porn-
ography.


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Sep 10 19:06:52 PDT 1996
Article: 64276 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:41:42 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <513elm$9nj@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

> Where are the court records proving that Streicher was tried and convicted of
> publishing pornography?  All the rest of your comments are balderdash and 
> double-talk.

Herr Schwarzesel, it has never been my contention that the Nazi pervert
Streicher was convicted and executed for publishing pornography. He was
convicted and executed for crimes against hunanity. 

I know it's a difficult topic for mentally challenged Nazi apologists,
such as yourself, Herr Schwarzesel, but do try and keep up with the
program. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rblackmore@juno.com Wed Sep 11 07:13:16 PDT 1996
Article: 64334 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 10 Sep 1996 08:30:08 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <5138ug$6fk@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
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>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <50r530$on2@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  > >Mark:>
>  > Your post was hilarious.  Give me a page number and volume number from
>  the IMT. I'll type it up on the web-site.  
>  
>  Herr Schwarzesel, I'm _already_ waiting for you to quote in full the
>  "IMT's Case against Streicher." After that you can quote in full PS-710
>  -both in the origional German and the English translation presented before
>  the IMT. 
>  
>  Hop to it, Herr Schwarzesel! 
>  
>  [Herr Schwarzesel's apoplectic spasms snipped]
>  
>  > ...Besides, I'm a lover, not a fighter.
>  
>  Indeed. Herr Schwarzesel, besides being craven to the bone, you are
>  obviously bessotted with your Nazi heroes.  Like the pervert Streicher and
>  the tumescent pig Go"ring. Such odd bedfellows you keep, Herr Schwarzesel.
>  But, I suppose, cosidering your apparent "interests" you don't have all
>  that many Nazi "heroes" to pick from when pursuing your Nazi fantasies....
>  
>  
>  Mark
>  
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 

Not only do you need to work on your history, but I would suggest that you
brush up on your spelling and typing skills as well.  Apparently your line that separates
good and evil also separates ignorance and intelligence.  You are not in my league,
cub scout.  Go back to playing with your marbles, most of which you obviously lost
some time ago.




From mike@aimetering.com Wed Sep 11 07:13:18 PDT 1996
Article: 64344 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:52:55 GMT
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On 7 Sep 1996 23:04:03 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

You're a card. You seem to be more concerned with authenticity of
documententation rather than with refuting ant aspect of the
Holocaust. I am puzzled why you fail to be more specific which
documents you have doubts about. This is typical. I still do not have
the mentioned post on my service. This is the way of usenet. 

You mentioned that documents used to prove cases against defendents
should meet the same criteria as that of the Lachout "document." Well,
you haven't shown me any evidence that those documents (whatever they
specifically may be) were not. The ball is bouncing away in your
court. In fact, it's on its way down for the second bouce.

Mike

>>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  (Irrelevant material by Curtis snipped)
>
>For a reference to Streicher's writings see my "Streicher vs Ehrenburg post.
>As for the rest, thank you for admitting your impotence in providing the 
>required proof.  I couldn't have proved it better myself.  rb
>
>"If you can't believe the messengers, how can you believe the message?"
>
>Pleast visit: http://www.codoh.com/>
>>  >>
>



From jfbe@vir.com Wed Sep 11 07:13:21 PDT 1996
Article: 64357 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Goering Knew
Date: 8 Sep 1996 20:29:49 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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Message-ID: <50vabt$oef@Vir.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne29.vir.com

Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
was asking himself questions, without knowing really. Some others
>  accepted Hoess testimony and believed that Himmler and Hitler did it
>  alone (Frank among others). They couldn't know that Hoess was tortured, but Hoess had
>  a big effect on several of them. Despite Frank's opinion is based on the strong impression
>  that Hoess testimony did on him, we are told now that Frank 'knew' because he assumed
>  a guilt feeling. In the context, Frank had an emotional shock and had already start,
>  during his captivity, his catholic 'trip' were admissions of sins were the best way
>  to be in agreement with God. However, since Frank's decision was based on Hoess testimony,
>  this mean simply that he couldn't 'know' the 'gassing' during the war, but we are still
>  given his diary as a proof of anything. 
> 
>    We are still present 'proofs' like Speer repentance as a proof of anything whatsover,
>  while his post war attitude, like the one of the other defendants, was based mainly
>  on Hoess testimony. They couldn't figure that torture of a threath to
>  deport the familly of a SS in siberia were used since there only way to compare was
>  their own treatment (except for Streicher). Hoess was totally apathic
>  and had probably the hope to not be turn to the Russians. But you'll see, even if
>  the proofs about Hoess treatment were posted here often and often they will still
>  claim that it wasn't the case.
> 
>    It is a strange case that Himmler decided to constitute himself prisonner, was left
>  alone (!) and 'suicided'. He was perfectly aware about the atrocity stories that were
>  reported, the movie 'Holocaust' show him as if he had 'discovered' suddenly that the
>  allied were aware about is involvment(!) while such atrocities and accusations were
>  brought for months and that he commited a suicide because he had suddenly 'realized'
>  that the allieds could accuse him of that! Anybody of a sane mind who studied a bit 
>  this topic can see that he decided to constitute himself prisonner rather than to go
>  in south america because he wanted to testify the truth. That is for
>  Himmler 'suicide'.

  Fiou, I think I'll bring an english version of this one a day:-)


From schwartz@infinet.com Wed Sep 11 07:13:23 PDT 1996
Article: 64363 of alt.revisionism
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From: schwartz@infinet.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:52:55 -0400
Organization: InfiNet
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In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:

> In <322c74af.10309628@news.spry.com> klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
> 
> ! On 3 Sep 1996 09:32:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> ! 
> ! >Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
> ! >
> ! >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
> ! >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
> ! >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
> ! >magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
> 
> Do you mean that the Strmer was designed to sexually stimulate the
> reader?  I doubt it.
> 

Just because YOU doubt doesn't make it false.
 
Yes, the Stuermer was designed to "tittilate" the reader.
 
It was designed to do quite a number of things.
 
Hitler called it "pornography." So now you're calling Hitler a ... liar?
 
Sara

-- 
"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
    Edith Sitwell


From rblackmore@juno.com Wed Sep 11 07:13:24 PDT 1996
Article: 64364 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 10 Sep 1996 10:18:51 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  >>  In message <50gtv0$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>  >>  :>
>  >>  :>Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER:
>  >>  
>  >>  Herr Streicher would have been considered to be a pornographer by the societal
>  >>  standards of his day, which is about the best one can do.

In that case, he would have been charged, as the publishing of pornography was against
the law.
>  >I agree that it was irrelevant to Nuremberg,

>  
>  To bad it failed to to get you off.

I wasn't looking for cheap thrills.

 I find it hilarious that you also
>  dismiss descriptions not just from historians, but by people of his
>  own time and in his own party. 

Of course I dismiss them--as gossip.  I also am not particularly interested in
the alleged sex lives of the Caesar's as described by Suetonius.  I am only
interested in whether or not Streicher was ever charged in a German court of 
law and convicted for publishing pornographic material.  The answer is:  he
was not-ergo-he was not a pornographer.

Truly amazing the historical integrity
>  you display when confronted with this subject and the explanations of
>  it

My historical integrity remains uncompromised.

. One plus is that you FINALLY admit that the pornographic business
>  was NOT germain to charges at the IMT. I appluad you.

I know that was a typo.
>  
>  > Nor could
>  >I find any evidence that Streicher was ever so charged in any courts
>  >during the Weimar republic.
>  
>  Who said he was?

THAT precisely is the point.
>  
>  


>  
>  


>  
>>>>



From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Sep 11 08:42:42 PDT 1996
Article: 64388 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:38:41 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <515sau$6v2@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
> >  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  : I won't discuss the activities of the White Rose under a Streicher 
> >  : post.  If you want to discuss it elsewhere, repost it.  Besides, the 
> >  : activities of the white rose were considered treason during war-time.  
> >  : People were and are executed for treason.
> >  
> >  No, wait--this just became relevant to the Streicher thread.  The 
> >  members of the White Rose, Mr. Blackmore, did nothing more than 
> >  express their opinion; that opinion was considered treasonous, and
> >  they were executed.  In your view, Streicher did nothing more than
> >  express his opinion; that opinion was considered an incitement to
> >  murder, and he was hanged for it.  If you're going to support one
> >  and deplore the other, you're going to have to do it on other than
> >  legal grounds.
> >  
> >  Bill
> >  
> >>>>
> I believe you are stretching things a bit here, Mr. Anderson.  In the first 
> place,treason against the State is an almost universal offense punishable by 
> law.If you want to bring the Streicher post in on this, what he wrote wasn't 
> treason.

But it _was_ a crime against humanity, Herr Schwarzesel. 

> Also, I would have to question the authority of a tribunal composed 
> exclusively by the victors.

I would expect no less from a scumbag Nazi apologist, Herr Schwarzesel.
Question to your (black) heart's content. Feel free, even, to stomp your
feet and hold your breath 'till you turn blue in the face. 

The fact remain, however, that Streicher was convicted and executed for
his crimes against humanity. And _that_ is the judgement of history, as
well as the IMT. 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mike@aimetering.com Wed Sep 11 08:42:43 PDT 1996
Article: 64389 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:53:03 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 24
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On 10 Sep 1996 10:01:01 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>  
>>  Nazi Germany did not have free speech. Quick to mind --> the White
>>  Rose. How many people did Hitler have murdered for excerising their
>>  right to free speech?
>>  
>>>>>
>I won't discuss the activities of the White Rose under a Streicher post.  If you want
>to discuss it elsewhere, repost it.  Besides, the activities of the white rose were 
>considered treason during war-time.  People were and are executed for treason.  Private
>Slovik was executed for desertion.  Times were rough.

So you decide to discuss it.  You are caliming free speech for some
who meet your criteria but not for others. The Slovik affair is
another legal issue entirly. Steicher had the freedom o his speech for
he went with the speech that Hitler and his lk accepted. The youth of
White Rose did not. They we not vile or pornographic. They were
anti-NSDAP. BTW, I have their pamphlets. Time were not rough for
Germans they were shit.

Mike



From gmcfee@ibm.net Wed Sep 11 12:59:53 PDT 1996
Article: 64427 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 9 Sep 1996 17:53:58 GMT
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In message <50okdv$t8c@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com6 Sep 1996
07:38:39 GMT writes:
:>
:>
:>
:>This is pornography?  Is this what Streicher was condemned to death for?

Mr. Blackmore, I am not aware of anyone other than you who claims that
Streicher was executed for pornography.

[Inge article deleted]

:>>By the way, I showed your documentation to a number of people, and most
:>of them thought the writings were hilarious...hardly anything to be put to death for..
:>Oh, well, that's life in the big city.  

I would not necessarily expect them to find those particular articles as
pornography, but I am sickened that they would find them hilarious.  

BTW, I notice you did not respond to my post about Streicher and the orgasm he
got after whipping a boy in prison.  Did you see it?
 



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From mike@aimetering.com Wed Sep 11 21:08:08 PDT 1996
Article: 64516 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:52:59 GMT
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On 8 Sep 1996 04:02:47 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
>
>: There are several historians whoi have studied Nuremberg who disagree with
>: some of the sentences, Professor Smith being one of them.  The most common
>: sentences cited tend to be those meted out to Streicher, Jodl, and Sauckel,
>: and the sentence *not* meted out to Speer.
>: 
>: What make Streicher so difficult was that he was so loathsome and probably
>: best represented Hitler's perverted antisemitism among the "big-wigs" still
>: alive.  I still feel he was tried as an ersatz Hitler, much as Fritzsche was
>: an ersatz Goebbels.  A person who so happily and at great profit exploited
>: millions of young children with his disgusting rubbish is nonetheless
>: difficult to pity.
>: 
>: For what it is worth, and with respect to those who see it otherwise, I do not
>: feel the death penalty was appropriate in Streicher's case.  I say this
>: especially since he had no executive power after 1940.
>
>I actually agree with Gord here--although it's not the case that
>Streicher was executed merely for "expressing his opinion."


Exactly. Smith feels that he may have excited people to do the dirty
deeds but that he didn't actually participate. This is true. He did
have knoweldge it appears of what was done. Knowledge isn't really a
crime either, is it? But the judges were revolted by him and his
actions during the trial. In the heat of judicial passion he got the
death sentence and this is Bradley F. Smith's position. Wrong or right
this is what happened. We have to deal with the justice of that
sentence with hidsight. Have you noticed that Belling/Blackmore is
dealing with injustice rather than with the Holocaust per se?

Mike


From mike@aimetering.com Wed Sep 11 21:08:10 PDT 1996
Article: 64517 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:53:01 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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On 10 Sep 1996 09:55:46 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Get with the program and read below.

>>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  : >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>>  
>>  : >  Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
>>  : >  while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
>>  : >  sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
>>  : >  announced that it gave him an orgasm.
>>  : 
>>  : -Different strokes for different folks....
>>  
>>  Mr. Blackmore, did you intend to strip yourself of all credibility 
>>  with that remark, or are you just stupid?
>>  
>>  Bill
>>  
>>>>>
>Mr. Anderson:  The incident, whether true or fiction, has nothing to do with 
>Nuremberg and why Streicher received the death sentence.  I am only interested
>in whether he was ever charged with publishing pornographic materials and whether 
>he was convicted.

He wasn't conficted of publishing porno. Clear? Yes or no?

Mike


From dkeren@world.std.com Wed Sep 11 23:17:58 PDT 1996
Article: 64529 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <50t14j$19d@juliana.sprynet.com> <511g15$d6r@morgana.netcom.net.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 06:30:21 GMT
Lines: 15

I have actually responded to the "STREICHER vs EHRENBURG"
posted by "rblackmore" (aka "jbellings").

While Ehrenburg's anti-German writing was indeed violent
and hateful, it was directed at an enemy that invaded his
country, regarded its citizens as "sub-human", and butchered
huge numbers of civilians and POW's.

Streicher, on the other hand, attacked and called to
murder a small, unarmed, unprotected minority which was
not guilty of any crime.


-Danny Keren.



From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep 12 07:33:07 PDT 1996
Article: 64547 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 10 Sep 1996 09:55:46 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 25
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>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  : >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  
>  : >  Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
>  : >  while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
>  : >  sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
>  : >  announced that it gave him an orgasm.
>  : 
>  : -Different strokes for different folks....
>  
>  Mr. Blackmore, did you intend to strip yourself of all credibility 
>  with that remark, or are you just stupid?
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
Mr. Anderson:  The incident, whether true or fiction, has nothing to do with 
Nuremberg and why Streicher received the death sentence.  I am only interested
in whether he was ever charged with publishing pornographic materials and whether 
he was convicted.  I have no way of ascertaining whether the above story is
true or apocryphal.  It is irrelevant, thus my flippant answer, and your name calling
 lowers you to the level of Mark Van Alstine.  If one really wantsto investigate
 Streicher's personality and behavior, I suppose one could attempt to 
contact Lothar Streicher, his son, and ask him.  I am not that interested.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep 12 07:33:08 PDT 1996
Article: 64548 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 10 Sep 1996 10:44:06 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 37
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>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  In message <50qslu$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com7 Sep 1996
>  04:11:42 GMT writes:
>  :>
>  :>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>   
>  :>
>  :>>  :>In the 30s and 40s, pictures of Bettie Page in her underwear were
>  :>>  :>considered absolutely obscene and extremely pornographic. Now they're put
>  :>>  :>into calendars and sold in comic books stores.
>  :>>>>>>>
>  :(snip)

>  :>Back then, they weren't really regarded as gas chambers, they were really only showers.
>  
  referred to him as the "Reichspornograph", the Reich pornographer. 

That may be, but he was never charged or convicted.  That is all I am interested
in, not their gossip.
>  
>  I am not sure what accusation you are claiming is a lie and a slander.  I made
>  no accusation; I reported a historical fact and gave the reference for it.
>  
>  But I do see the source of your temper tantrum.  You are trying to claim that
>  someone claimed Streicher had been convicted of pornography (no one made such
>  a claim--you demanded it as "proof" of God knows what), and that if that can't
>  be proved, the gas chamber stories might become suspect.  There are so many
>  logical fallacies in that approach that the mind truly boggles.
>  
>  
>  --
>  Gord McFee
>  I'll write no line before its time
>  
>  
>>>>
It takes many little pieces to complete a puzzle.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep 12 07:33:09 PDT 1996
Article: 64549 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 10 Sep 1996 08:20:22 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 39
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>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  In message <50okdv$t8c@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com6 Sep 1996
>  07:38:39 GMT writes:
>  :>
>  :>
>  :>
>  :>This is pornography?  Is this what Streicher was condemned to death for?
>  
>  Mr. Blackmore, I am not aware of anyone other than you who claims that
>  Streicher was executed for pornography.
>  
>  [Inge article deleted]
>  
>  :>>By the way, I showed your documentation to a number of people, and most
>  :>of them thought the writings were hilarious...hardly anything to be put to death for..
>  :>Oh, well, that's life in the big city.  
>  
>  I would not necessarily expect them to find those particular articles as
>  pornography, but I am sickened that they would find them hilarious.  
>  
>  BTW, I notice you did not respond to my post about Streicher and the orgasm he
>  got after whipping a boy in prison.  Did you see it?
>   
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Gord McFee
>  I'll write no line before its time
>  
>  
>>>>
Yes, I did see it, but I did not see the orgasm, nor would I want to.  
Different strokes for different folks.  I don't know what this incident
has to do with Nuremberg, however.  I am not interested in Streicher's
sexual habits. I am only concerned with whether he was charged and
convicted in a German court for publishing pornography.  By the way,
was the victim above German or Jewish?  If Streicher behaved like a
reprobate, it is no wonder that he was kicked out of office.


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 12 07:33:11 PDT 1996
Article: 64562 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:29:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 5 Sep 1996 08:00:06 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <50m008$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>Mr. McVay writes:

>[Streicher's pornographic material]
>  
>>To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher:  I am not denying what he wrote...I 
>>am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their
>>opinions.  I don't know how many times I have posted this.  You

>You are also changing the subject, Sir. You asked for proof
>that his writing was pornographic. I provided it. You first
>rejected a common English definition ("revisionist
>scholarship" in action, as usual) then changed the subject.

>We are not talking about why the man was hung - we are talking
>about his pornographic writing. Do try and focus, won't you?

>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
>-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here
>                       |--------------------------------------
>    http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/random-giwer-lie.cgi

	If is only pornographic if kmcay@oneb.almana.bc.ca has an erotic
reaction to it.  Apperently he does.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Sep 12 07:33:20 PDT 1996
Article: 64614 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JBelling is still a troll... Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 23:45:43 -0800
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In article <5183rd$n3i@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >  The "revisionists" often claim that the memoir of Rudolph Hoess,
> >  commandant of Auschwitz, was "dictated" to him during his trial
> >  in Poland.
> 
> I am not claiming any of the statements you made just now.
> Rather than deal with any of the above right at this point, I would rather 
> first settle the issue of whether or not Hoess was tortured. 

A rather easy issue to settle, Herr Schwarzesel. Ho"ss, in the section of
his memoirs entiled "1945-47" wrote:

"On March 11, 1946, at 11 p.m., I was arrested. My vial of poison had
broken just two days before. The arrest was successful because I was
frightened at being awakened out of a sound sleep. I assumed it was a
robbery because there was a lot of them occurring in the area.

"I was treated terribly by the [British] Field Security Police. I was
dragged to Heide and, of all places, to the same military barracks from
which I had been released eight months before by the British. During the
first interview they gave me liquor and beat me with a whip. It was too
much even for me to bear. The whip was my own. By chance it had found its
way into my wife's luggage. My horse had hardly ever been touched by it,
much less the prisoners. Somehow one of the interrogators probably thought
that I had used it to constantly whip the prisoners. 

"After a few days I was taken to Minden on the Weser River, which was the
main interrogation center in the British zone. There they treated me even
more roughly, especially the first British prosecutor, who was a major.
The conditions in the jail reflected the attitude of the first prosecutor.


"Surprisingly, after three weeks I was shaved, my hair was cut, and I was
allowed to wash myself. My handcuffs had not been opened since my arrest.
The next day I was taken by car to Nuremberg together with a prisoner of
war who had been brought over from London as a witness in Fritzsche's
defense. Compared to where I had been before, imprisonment with the IMT
[International Military Tribunal] was like staying in a health spa. I was
housed in the same building as the principal defendants [Hermann Go"ring,
Rudolf Hess, Albert Speer, Julius Streicher, and others] and could see
them daily as they were being led to court. There were daily inspections
by the Allied countries. I was constantly displayed as a particularly
interesting animal. 

"I had been brought to Nuremberg because Kaltenbrunner's defense attorney
demanded me as a witness for his defense. I could never understand, and it
is still not clear to me even today, how I of all people could help
Kaltenbrunner's defense. Even though the prison conditions were good in
every aspect and I had tie t read from an extensive library made available
to us, the interrogators were really not pleasant. Physically there was no
problem, but more so were the mental and emotional effects. I cannot
really blame the interrogators-they were all Jews. I was for all intents
and purposes psychologically dissected. That's how accurately they wanted
to know everything-this was also done by Jews.[2] They also left me with
no doubt whatsoever what was going to happen to me.

"On May [1946], our wedding anniversary, I was driven to the airport with
von Burgsdorff and Bu"hler and handed over to the Polish authorities. We
flew in an American plane to Warsaw via Berlin. Although we had been
treated very politely on the flight, I remembered my experiences in the
British Zone. I also thought of the hints about how I would be treated in
the East. I feared the worst. The expressions and gestures of the
onlookers at the airport during our arrival also did not exactly inspire
any confidence in me. 

"After arriving in prison several officials approached me immediately and
showed me their Auschwitz tattoo numbers. I could not understand them, but
I do not suppose they wished me well. However, I was not beaten. The
imprisonment was very strict and totally isolated. I was often viewed and
checked. The nine weeks I spent became very difficult for me because there
was absolutely nothing to keep my mind occupied. I had nothing to read,
nor was  allowed to write.

"I arrived on July 30 in Cracow with seven other Germans. We had to wait
quite a while at the railroad station for a car. During that a crown
gathered and angrily cursed at us. Major Go"the was recognized
immediately.[3] If the car had not arrived when it did, we would have been
bombarded with stones.

"During the first weeks' imprisonment was quite tolerable, but suddenly
the prison caretakers were changed people overnight. From their behavior
and conversation, which I could not understand but could figure out, I
could deduce they wanted to 'finish me off.' On a regular basis I received
the smallest piece of bread and barely a ladleful of their soup. Never
again did I get a second portion, even though each day there were
leftovers. These were distributed in the cells next to me. Whenever a
guard wanted to open my cell to give me some leftover food, he was
immediately whistled back.

"Here is where I learned the power of the prison caretakers. They had
absolute rule. They confirmed to me gain, clearly enough, my contention
about the tremendous and often disastrous power which prisoner trusties
can exert over there fellow prisoners. Here is where I also came to fully
understand the three categories of guards. 

"If the prosecutor's office had not intervened, they would have finished
me off, most of all mentally and emotionally. They almost had me at the
breaking point. This was not feeble hysteria. I was almost totally
finished at that time, and I can stand quite a bit. Life had often enough
been hard for me, but the psychological torture of these satans was too
much. I was not the only one who was mistreated like this. They also badly
mistreated a few of the Polish prisoners. They have long since this
position and it is gratifyingly quiet. 

"I have to openly confess I never would have expected to be treated do
decently and so kindly in a Polish prison as I have been since the
intervention of the prosecutor's office. (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_,
pp.179-181.) 


"2. Ho"ss was one of the few who could, and would give precise information
about every aspect of the mass killings. In fact, he answered everything
asked of him. He even gave personal information to Gilbert in 1946 that he
felt necessary to contradict in 1947 in order to protect his wife and
family." (Ibid. p.180fn.) 

"3. SS Major Amon Leopolt Go"the was in charge of the liquidation of the
Cracow ghetto in March 1943. He was also the commander of the Jewish
concentration camp in Plaszow near Cracow. He was sentenced to death by
the Polish Peoples' Court on September 5, 1946. Brozat, p.146." (Ibid.
p.181fn.) 
 

Further more, Ho"ss, in the section of his memoirs entitled "Some Final
Thoughts," also wrote:

"...In the British Zone, under the strictest constant surveillance, , I
was able to study enough of the three categories of guards. In Nuremberg
individual mistreatment was not possible since all the prisoners there
were under constant observation of the jail officers. 

"It was only by luck that a third person walked into the lavatory at the
Berlin airport during a stopover, thus preventing my being mistreated.

"There was one, just one of the prison guards in Warsaw, who as soon as he
came on duty in our cell block, ran from cell to cell, wherever there were
Germans, and indiscriminately beat them. This happened in spite of the
fact, as far as I could observe and judge from my cell, that the prison
was run properly. With the exception of von Burgsdorff, who got away with
only a few slaps in the face, every German there was beaten by this young
man, approximately eighteen to twenty years old, out of whose eyes
flickered cold hatred. He said he was a Polish Jew, even though he did not
look like it at all. He certainly never got tired of beating us. Only when
one of his colleagues on duty gave him a warning sign that someone was
coming would he interrupt his activity. I am firmly convinced that none of
the higher officials or the prison warden would have approved of his
behavior. Several times I was asked by visiting officials about how I was
treated, but I kept this secret because only one of them was like that.
The other guards were more or less strict and unfriendly, but no one ever
approached me.

"...I would never have allowed myself to open up about myself or to expose
my most secret inner self had it not been for the humanity and
understanding with which I have been treated. It has totally disarmed me.
I never could have expected this kind treatment. I owe it to this humane
understanding to contribute, as far as it is possible for me, and to shed
light on events which need clarification. I do ask, however, that all of
my tender emotions, my most secret doubts, not be revealed  to the public.
May the general public simply go  on seeing me as the bloodthirsty best,
the cruel sadist, the murderer of millions, because the broad masses
cannot conceive the Kommandant of Auschwitz in any other way. They would
never be able to understand that he also had a heart and that he was not
evil.

"These notes comprise 114 pages. I have written all this down voluntarily
and without being forced.  (Ibid. pp.184,186.) 


> After that, I would be most willing to address a new thread on Hoess and what 
> he allegedly wrote. 

Address away, Herr Schwarzesel. Please remember to fully cite your sources. 

> This helps to zero in on the point at issue.  

And which point is that, Herr Schwarzesel? 

> I would hope that you don't have any objections.

None at all, Herr Schwarzesel. I once more look forward to debunking your
Nazi apologia. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep 12 07:33:23 PDT 1996
Article: 64626 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 12 Sep 1996 04:45:14 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  On 10 Sep 1996 09:55:46 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  Get with the program and read below.
>  
>  >>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  >>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  >>  : >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  >>  
>  >>  : >  Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
>  >>  : >  while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
>  >>  : >  sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
>  >>  : >  announced that it gave him an orgasm.
>  >>  : 
>  >>  : -Different strokes for different folks....
>  >>  
>  >>  Mr. Blackmore, did you intend to strip yourself of all credibility 
>  >>  with that remark, or are you just stupid?
>  >>  
>  >>  Bill
>  >>  
>  >>>>>
>  >Mr. Anderson:  The incident, whether true or fiction, has nothing to do with 
>  >Nuremberg and why Streicher received the death sentence.  I am only interested
>  >in whether he was ever charged with publishing pornographic materials and whether 
>  >he was convicted.
>  
>  He wasn't conficted of publishing porno. Clear? Yes or no?
>  
>  Mike
>  
>>>>
Now that you have admitted it, it is most clear.  Thank You.


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep 12 07:33:23 PDT 1996
Article: 64627 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 12 Sep 1996 04:47:03 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <5184k7$n3i@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ad02-099.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   schwartz@infinet.com writes:
>  In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
>  
>  > In <322c74af.10309628@news.spry.com> klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>  > 
>  > ! On 3 Sep 1996 09:32:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  > ! 
>  > ! >Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER
>  > ! >
>  > ! >Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>  > ! >already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
>  > ! >being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
>  > ! >magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
>  > 
>  > Do you mean that the Strmer was designed to sexually stimulate the
>  > reader?  I doubt it.
>  > 
>  
>  Just because YOU doubt doesn't make it false.
>   
>  Yes, the Stuermer was designed to "tittilate" the reader.
>   
>  It was designed to do quite a number of things.
>   
>  Hitler called it "pornography." So now you're calling Hitler a ... liar?
>   
>  Sara
>  
>  -- 
>  "I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>      Edith Sitwell
>  
>>>>
Sara, I am not calling Hitler correct or a liar.  I am not interested in his opinion.
I am only interested in the facts which have a direct bearing on this charge.

rb


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep 12 07:33:26 PDT 1996
Article: 64634 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: 11 Sep 1996 08:25:18 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <515t1e$6v2@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
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>   bodhi@sattva.org (Bodhisattva) writes:
>  In article <50ji45$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  > Isn't it a fact that a group of rabbinical students
>  > attempted to assassinate Spinoza by stabbing 
>  > him in the back, simply because of his beliefs
>  > and what he wrote?
>  
>  Have you ever read Spinoza?
>  
>  I didn't think so.
>  
>>>>
Are you asking ME or asking yourself?   Are you telling me or telling yourself?
Looks like I'll have to refer
to you whenever I need to know anything about myself....


From libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu Thu Sep 12 07:33:29 PDT 1996
Article: 64649 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 12 Sep 1996 13:39:18 GMT
Organization: Emory University
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5193q6$9a1@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
: >   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:

: >  He wasn't conficted of publishing porno. Clear? Yes or no?

: Now that you have admitted it, it is most clear.  Thank You.

There's nothing it admit.  Nobody ever asserted that Streicher was
convicted of publishing pornagraphy.  I'm hard pressed to understand
why you chose to make an issue of this.

Bill


From schwartz@infinet.com Thu Sep 12 20:29:01 PDT 1996
Article: 64872 of alt.revisionism
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From: schwartz@infinet.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:17:54 -0400
Organization: InfiNet
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <50mopk$6gg@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50ot91$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmh-p065.infinet.com

In article <50ot91$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:


> That is what I have been trying to do for the past 22 posts.  Somehow you
> people just don't seem to get the idea-maybe you are dense..Why can't you
> jjust admit that the Streicher sentence was unjust?  Oh well, I suppose your
> 20 odd posts already testify to that fact.


Mr. Blackmore/Belling:
 
Are you stupid?
 
Many people have ALREADY agreed that Streicher's sentence was unjust.
 
But his SENTENCE (the decision of the Court) and his being a PORNOGRAPHER
(publishing pornography) are TWO SEPERATE THINGS. 
 
LET ME TRY IN AGAIN IN LITTLE WORDS:
 
STREICHER WAS ***NOT*** SENTENCED FOR BEING A PORNOGRAPHER. HE WAS
SENTENCED FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

Sara

-- 
"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
    Edith Sitwell


From schwartz@infinet.com Thu Sep 12 21:43:24 PDT 1996
Article: 64881 of alt.revisionism
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From: schwartz@infinet.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:18:59 -0400
Organization: InfiNet
Lines: 16
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References:  <50qs0l$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmh-p065.infinet.com

In article <50qs0l$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> 6.  You stated that Streicher was convicted of inciting the German
people to mass
>       murder the Jews.  I replied that his paper had a subscription list
of 400,000 people
>      during the war years, in a nation of 80,000,000.  Most of the
subscribers were obviously
>      old geriatric cases like Streicher, 
[snip]
 
like Hitler?

-- 
"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
    Edith Sitwell


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep 12 22:37:06 PDT 1996
Article: 64889 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 13 Sep 1996 02:23:05 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <51agi9$80q@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <5193ng$9a1@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  : We can discuss the Holocaust later.  I was merely stating that 
>  : Streicher's sentence was unjust, and the charge of pornographer is 
>  : unsubstantiated by actual evidence.
>  
>  But, of course, Streicher was not charged with being a pornographer,
>  and the fact that he was widely considered to be a pornographer had
>  nothing whatsoever to do with his neck-extension.
>  
>  I agree with you that his sentence was unjust, although I have to 
>  grit my teeth to use the word.  I think that, in view of the fact
>  that he merely encourage and propagandized for genocide without
>  actually participating in it, he should have been sentenced to life
>  in prison.
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
Then you will agree that allied propangandists also should have been imprisoned for
life for inciting against the Germans and Japanese?  Just curious whether you attempt to
rationalize their hate filled rantings as well.

rb


From rblackmore@juno.com Thu Sep 12 23:07:08 PDT 1996
Article: 64892 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 13 Sep 1996 02:20:14 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <51agcu$80q@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <5193q6$9a1@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  : >   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  
>  : >  He wasn't conficted of publishing porno. Clear? Yes or no?
>  
>  : Now that you have admitted it, it is most clear.  Thank You.
>  
>  There's nothing it admit.  Nobody ever asserted that Streicher was
>  convicted of publishing pornagraphy.  I'm hard pressed to understand
>  why you chose to make an issue of this.
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
I don't know whether you read the original post or not.  I wanted to address this
issue and settle it once and for all because I had read it so often in books on
the Third Reich.  That was all there was to it.

rb


From libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu Fri Sep 13 01:07:10 PDT 1996
Article: 64899 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 12 Sep 1996 13:37:52 GMT
Organization: Emory University
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

: We can discuss the Holocaust later.  I was merely stating that 
: Streicher's sentence was unjust, and the charge of pornographer is 
: unsubstantiated by actual evidence.

But, of course, Streicher was not charged with being a pornographer,
and the fact that he was widely considered to be a pornographer had
nothing whatsoever to do with his neck-extension.

I agree with you that his sentence was unjust, although I have to 
grit my teeth to use the word.  I think that, in view of the fact
that he merely encourage and propagandized for genocide without
actually participating in it, he should have been sentenced to life
in prison.

Bill


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:13 PDT 1996
Article: 64908 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 22:20:53 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

> In article <50qs0l$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> > 6.  You stated that Streicher was convicted of inciting the German
> > people to mass murder the Jews. I replied that his paper had a 
> > subscription list of 400,000 people during the war years, in a nation of 
> > 80,000,000.  Most of the subscribers were obviously old geriatric cases 
> > like Streicher, 
>
> [snip]
>  
> like Hitler?

Or like Ho"ss?  When asked by Gilbert if he "had ever considered whether
the Jews whom he had murdered were guilty or had in any way desrved such a
fate" Ho"ss replied, "Don't you see, we SS men were not supposed to think
about these things; it never occured to us. And besides, it was something
already taken for granted that the Jews were to blame for everything....we
just never heard anything else. It was not just newspapers like _Stu"rmer_
but it was everything we heard. Even our military and ideological training
took for granted that we had to protect Gemrany from the Jews..."
(_Nurmeberg Diary_, p.259.) 

What was that saying about pens and swords? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu Fri Sep 13 01:07:14 PDT 1996
Article: 64909 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 13 Sep 1996 03:02:22 GMT
Organization: Emory University
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
: >   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:

: >  I agree with you that his sentence was unjust, although I have to 
: >  grit my teeth to use the word.  I think that, in view of the fact
: >  that he merely encourage and propagandized for genocide without
: >  actually participating in it, he should have been sentenced to life
: >  in prison.

: Then you will agree that allied propangandists also should have 
: been imprisoned for life for inciting against the Germans and 
: Japanese?  

Nope.  I detest wartime propaganda, but nobody should be imprisoned
merely for expressing an opinion.  When that expression is intended
as incitement to a crime, however, and when that crime then takes 
place, the inciter is also guilty.  That was the point of my little
thought experiment on the topic of your imaginary unstable acquaintance
and his unfortunate mother.

Streicher's job was to stir public opinion against the Jews, so that 
the Nazi program for eliminating them could be more easily carried 
out.  He was very good at it.

Bill


From gmcfee@ibm.net Fri Sep 13 01:07:15 PDT 1996
Article: 64911 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 12 Sep 1996 03:39:58 GMT
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <5180me$mme@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> <50schv$fs8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> <50schv$fs8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <50tgh7$ce3@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In message <50tgh7$ce3@lendl.cc.emory.edu> - libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson)8 Sep 1996 04:02:47 GMT writes:
:>
:>Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
:>
:>: There are several historians whoi have studied Nuremberg who disagree with
:>: some of the sentences, Professor Smith being one of them.  The most common
:>: sentences cited tend to be those meted out to Streicher, Jodl, and Sauckel,
:>: and the sentence *not* meted out to Speer.
:>: 
:>: What make Streicher so difficult was that he was so loathsome and probably
:>: best represented Hitler's perverted antisemitism among the "big-wigs" still
:>: alive.  I still feel he was tried as an ersatz Hitler, much as Fritzsche was
:>: an ersatz Goebbels.  A person who so happily and at great profit exploited
:>: millions of young children with his disgusting rubbish is nonetheless
:>: difficult to pity.
:>: 
:>: For what it is worth, and with respect to those who see it otherwise, I do not
:>: feel the death penalty was appropriate in Streicher's case.  I say this
:>: especially since he had no executive power after 1940.
:>
:>I actually agree with Gord here--although it's not the case that
:>Streicher was executed merely for "expressing his opinion."

Nor did I intend to imply that it was.

BTW, what the hell are we doing agreeing?  :-)  Neither of us is Jewish, and
McVay didn't order me what to say.  Is your name Anders-Cohen by any chance? 
Mine is McFeevaysteinostrovsky.



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From gmcfee@ibm.net Fri Sep 13 01:07:21 PDT 1996
Article: 64946 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 12 Sep 1996 03:40:16 GMT
Lines: 18
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References: <50o5df$1c42@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><50o5df$1c42@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <50onqm$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>
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In message <50onqm$22b@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com6 Sep 1996
08:36:38 GMT writes:
:>
:>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:

:>>>>>
:>I agree that it was irrelevant to Nuremberg, but not to the gist of my post,

I do not disagree with your opinion that the sentence handed out to Streicher
was too severe.

[rest deleted]


--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From gmcfee@ibm.net Fri Sep 13 01:07:21 PDT 1996
Article: 64947 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 12 Sep 1996 03:40:11 GMT
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In message <50tgjh$ce3@lendl.cc.emory.edu> - libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson)8 Sep 1996 04:04:01 GMT writes:
:>
:>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
:>: >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
:>
:>: >  Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
:>: >  while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
:>: >  sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
:>: >  announced that it gave him an orgasm.
:>: 
:>: -Different strokes for different folks....
:>
:>Mr. Blackmore, did you intend to strip yourself of all credibility 
:>with that remark, or are you just stupid?

Just trying to sidestep a post that proved him to be wrong.



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:37:27 PDT 1996
Article: 64959 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:10:55 -0400
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <50ot91$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:


>> That is what I have been trying to do for the past 22 posts.  Somehow
you
>> people just don't seem to get the idea-maybe you are dense..Why can't
you
>> jjust admit that the Streicher sentence was unjust?  Oh well, I suppose
your
>> 20 odd posts already testify to that fact.


>Mr. Blackmore/Belling:
> 
>Are you stupid?
> 
>Many people have ALREADY agreed that Streicher's sentence was unjust.
> 
>But his SENTENCE (the decision of the Court) and his being a PORNOGRAPHER
>(publishing pornography) are TWO SEPERATE THINGS. 
> 
>LET ME TRY IN AGAIN IN LITTLE WORDS:
> 
>STREICHER WAS ***NOT*** SENTENCED FOR BEING A PORNOGRAPHER. HE WAS
>SENTENCED FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

>Sara

Sara, I know you're not going to answer this but what's the difference
between a "crime against humanity" and the Israelis' torturing and
butchering of Palestians?

Just wondering.

"The 'questioning' comprises making Palestinian stand for days at a time,
shackling them in contorted or bent-over positions and confining them in
tiny chairs or closet-like cubicles. Routinely deprived of sleep, the
detainees are forced to relieve themselves in their clothing and are
exposed to extremes of heat and cold while being bombarded with loud,
nonstop music.  One of the worst forms of torture is "hooding," compelling
those held for questioning to wear foul-smelling canvas sacks over their
heads for days on end."  

[Chicago Tribune, June 15, 1994]

Kurt Stele

>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep 13 09:37:29 PDT 1996
Article: 64966 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 12 Sep 1996 04:44:02 GMT
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>   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  On 8 Sep 1996 04:02:47 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
>  anderson) wrote:
>  
> Mike Curtis writes:

>  >I actually agree with Gord here--although it's not the case that
>  >Streicher was executed merely for "expressing his opinion."
>  
>  
>  Exactly. Smith feels that he may have excited people to do the dirty
>  deeds but that he didn't actually participate. This is true. He did
>  have knoweldge it appears of what was done. Knowledge isn't really a
>  crime either, is it? But the judges were revolted by him and his
>  actions during the trial. In the heat of judicial passion he got the
>  death sentence and this is Bradley F. Smith's position. Wrong or right
>  this is what happened. We have to deal with the justice of that
>  sentence with hidsight. Have you noticed that Belling/Blackmore is
>  dealing with injustice rather than with the Holocaust per se?
>  
>  Mike
>  
>>>>
We can discuss the Holocaust later.  I was merely stating that Streicher's sentence
was unjust, and the charge of pornographer is unsubstantiated by actual evidence.
That's it.  No more, no less.  If you had written what you wrote here days ago, this
subject would have been a dead letter by now.

rb


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep 13 09:37:30 PDT 1996
Article: 64967 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 12 Sep 1996 04:39:56 GMT
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>   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  On 10 Sep 1996 10:01:01 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  >>  
>  >>  Nazi Germany did not have free speech. Quick to mind --> the White
>  >>  Rose. How many people did Hitler have murdered for excerising their
>  >>  right to free speech?
>  >>  
>  >>>>>
>  >I won't discuss the activities of the White Rose under a Streicher post.  If you want
>  >to discuss it elsewhere, repost it.  Besides, the activities of the white rose were 
>  >considered treason during war-time.  People were and are executed for treason.  Private
>  >Slovik was executed for desertion.  Times were rough.
>  
>  So you decide to discuss it.  You are caliming free speech for some
>  who meet your criteria but not for others. The Slovik affair is
>  another legal issue entirly. Steicher had the freedom o his speech for
>  he went with the speech that Hitler and his lk accepted. The youth of
>  White Rose did not. They we not vile or pornographic. They were
>  anti-NSDAP. BTW, I have their pamphlets. Time were not rough for
>  Germans they were shit.
>  
>  Mike
>  
>  
>>>>
What you say may have merit, but please post it elsewhere so as not to detract
>from  this subject.  I have no objections to discussing this point elsewhere.


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep 13 09:37:31 PDT 1996
Article: 64968 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 12 Sep 1996 04:43:18 GMT
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>   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  On 8 Sep 1996 04:02:47 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
>  anderson) wrote:
>  
> Mike Curtis writes:

>  >I actually agree with Gord here--although it's not the case that
>  >Streicher was executed merely for "expressing his opinion."
>  
>  
>  Exactly. Smith feels that he may have excited people to do the dirty
>  deeds but that he didn't actually participate. This is true. He did
>  have knoweldge it appears of what was done. Knowledge isn't really a
>  crime either, is it? But the judges were revolted by him and his
>  actions during the trial. In the heat of judicial passion he got the
>  death sentence and this is Bradley F. Smith's position. Wrong or right
>  this is what happened. We have to deal with the justice of that
>  sentence with hidsight. Have you noticed that Belling/Blackmore is
>  dealing with injustice rather than with the Holocaust per se?
>  
>  Mike
>  
>>>>
We can discuss the Holocaust later.  I was merely stating that Streicher's sentence
was unjust, and the charge of pornographer is unsubstantiated by actual evidence.
That's it.  No more, no less.  If you had written what you wrote here days ago, this
subject would have been a dead letter by now.

rb


From libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu Fri Sep 13 09:37:32 PDT 1996
Article: 64972 of alt.revisionism
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From: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 13 Sep 1996 02:57:13 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

: I don't know whether you read the original post or not.  I wanted to 
: address this issue and settle it once and for all because I had read it 
: so often in books on the Third Reich.  That was all there was to it.

There's nothing to settle, really.  Streicher was widely considered
a pornographer, both by his enemies and by his ostensible allies 
(most of whom despised him).  He was never tried or convicted for
being a pornographer, and nobody I know has ever suggested he was.

Bill


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep 13 09:37:39 PDT 1996
Article: 65019 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 13 Sep 1996 02:13:15 GMT
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>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  In message <50tgjh$ce3@lendl.cc.emory.edu> - libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
>  (william c anderson)8 Sep 1996 04:04:01 GMT writes:
>  :>
>  :>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  :>: >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>  :>
>  :>: >  Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
>  :>: >  while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
>  :>: >  sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
>  :>: >  announced that it gave him an orgasm.
>  :>: 
>  :>: -Different strokes for different folks....
>  :>
>  :>Mr. Blackmore, did you intend to strip yourself of all credibility 
>  :>with that remark, or are you just stupid?
>  
>  Just trying to sidestep a post that proved him to be wrong.
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Gord McFee
>  I'll write no line before its time
>  
>  
>>>>
Wrong concerning what?  I fully addressed this issue in a previous post.
  It has NO bearing on the issues under discussion.


From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 13 09:37:41 PDT 1996
Article: 65022 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeffrey 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: NOT GUILTY AT NUREMBERG [2/2]
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:58:28 +0100
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at the entrance to the camp (strafstehen), and finally punishment by
beating.

However, this punishment of beating could not be decreed by any
commandant
independently. He could apply for it.
-Oral testimony of Rudolf Hoess, 15 April 1946 (XI 403-411)

Hoess's motivation appears to have been to protect his wife and 3
children,
and to save the lives of others by testifying that only 60 people knew
of
the mass killings. Hoess attempted to save Kaltenbrunner by implicating
Eichmann and Pohl, who had not yet been apprehended. (For a similar
case,
see Heisig's affidavit implicating Raeder, XIII 460-461).

Hoess appeared as a "defense witness", and his cross-examination
by the prosecution was cut short by the prosecution itself (XI 418-419).
Perhaps they were afraid he would spill the beans.

Hoess's famous "autobiography" Kommandant in Auschwitz,
probably prepared in question and answer from through interrogation like
a gigantic "affidavit", then written up to be copied in his handwriting,
is not much better. In this book, German text, cremation fires were
visible
for miles (p. 159). Everyone in the area knew of the exterminations (p.
159) the victims knew they were going to be gassed (pp. 110, 111, 125),
but it was possible to fool them (pp. 123-124; Document 3868-PS), and
his
family never knew a thing (pp. 129-130). Hoess was a chronic drunkard
who
"confessed" these things when he had been drinking (p. 95) or
was being tortured (p. 145).

It is not true that, according to p. 126 of this text, bodies were
removed
>from  gas chambers by Kapos eating and smoking and/or not wearing gas
masks;
the text does not say that.

The Polish "translation" of this book, published prior to the
publication of the German "original text", seems to agree with
the German text, except that place names and dates are missing.

The uncut, unexpurgated complete writings of Rudolf Hoess(?) (in Polish)
are available through international library loan (Wspomnienia Rudolfa
Hoessa, Komendanta Obozu Oswiecimskiego).


JODL

Jodl was hanged for complicity in the Commando Order, an order to shoot
British soldiers who fought in civilian clothes and strangled their own
prisoners of war (XV 316-329).

Jodl's defense was that international law is intended to protect men who
fight as soldiers. Soldiers are required to bear arms openly, wear
clearly
recognizable emblems or uniforms, and to treat prisoners in a humane
manner.
Partisan warfare and the activities of British commando units were
prohibited.
Trial and execution of such people is legal if carried out under the
terms
of Article 63 of the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention of 1929 (1).
In fact, almost no one was shot as a result of the Commando Order. (55
in
Western Europe, according to Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe, XXII 284). The
intention
was to deter men from fighting in this manner, thinking they could
simply
surrender afterwards.

(1) See dissentient opinion of Judge Rutledge, U.S. v. Yamashita; Habeas
Corpus action of Field Marshall Milch.

Another "crime" was notifying the Commander in Chief of the Army
that Hitler had repeated an already previously issued order that an
offer
of surrender from Leningrad was not to be accepted.

Like so many German crimes, this remained an idea without effect, since
no offer of surrender ever came. The intention was to force the
population
to withdraw to the rear, since it would be impossible to feed millions
of
people or to prevent epidemics. Gaps were left in German lines to the
East
in order to enable the population to do this. Kiev, Odessa, and Kharkov
had capitulated but were mined, killing thousands of German soldiers
with
delayed-action detonator devices. The docks were required for military
purposes;
Russian railroads were on a different guage from German ones, and
supplies
could not be brought forward to feed millions of half-starved prisoners
or Jews. The Soviet propaganda lie that Germans killed millions of
Russian
prisoners has been taken seriously by David Irving in his pre-
revisionist
days. The order concerning Leningrad, Document C-123, is not signed.

The case against Jodl illustrates the absurdity of the entire trial. In
the words of his defense attorney, Dr. Exner: 
Murder and revolution - in peacetime this would have meant civil
war; in wartime, the immediate collapse of the front and the end of the
Reich. Should he then have cried, 'fiat justia, pereat patria?

It really appears that the prosecution holds the view that such conduct
could be demanded of the defendants. An astonishing idea! Whether murder
and treason can ever be justified ethically had better be left to
moralists
and theologians. At all events, jurists cannot even discuss such an
idea.
To be obliged on pain of punishment to murder the head of state? A
soldier
should do that? And in wartime? Those who have committed such deeds have
always been punished, but to punish them for not doing so would indeed
be
something new." (XIX 45; XXII 86-90).
[Photograph]

At another point, Dr. Exner exclaimed, "On one single page of the
Anglo-American trial brief the phrase 'Jodl was present at' occurs six
times.
What does this mean legally?" (XIX 37).

Jodl was asked by one of the Soviet prosecutors, Col. Pokrovsky, "Do
you know that the German troops . . . quartered, hanged upside down, and
roasted Soviet captives over the fire? Did you know that?"

To which Jodl replied, "Not only did I not know it, but I do not even
believe it" (XV 545).

This is the entire vast subject of war crimes trials boiled down into 3
sentences. (XV 284-561; XVIII 506-510; XIX 1-46).


KALTENBRUNNER

[Photograph]

During Kaltenbrunner's cross examination, he was indignantly asked how
he
had the nerve to pretend he was telling the truth and that 20 or 30
witnesses
were lying (XI 349).

The "eyewitnesses", of course, did not appear in court; they were
merely names on pieces of paper. One of these names is that of Franz
Ziereis,
commandant of Mauthausen concentration camp.

Ziereis "confessed" to gassing 65,000 people; making lampshades
out of human skin; manufacturing counterfeit money; and supplied a
complicated
table of statistical information containing the exact number of inmates
in 31 different camps. He then accused Kaltenbrunner of ordering the
entire
camp (Mauthausen) to be killed upon the approach of the Americans.

Ziereis had been dead for 10 and a half months when he made this
"confession".
Fortunately, the "confession" has been "remembered"
by someone else: a concentration camp inmate named Hans Marsalek, who
never
appeared in court, but whose signature appears on the document (Document
3870-PS, XXXIII 279-286).

Pages 1 through 6 of this document are in quotation marks(!), including
the statistical table, which states, for example, that there were 12,000
inmates at Ebensee; 12,000 at Mauthausen; 24,000 at Gusen I and II; 20
inmates
at Schloss-Lindt, 70 inmates at Klagenfurt-Junkerschule, etc, for all of
31 camps in the table.

The document is not signed by anyone else alleged to have been present
at
Ziereis's "confession", and no notes alleged to have been taken
at the time are appended to the document. The document bears two
signatures
only: that of Hans Marsalek, the inmate; and that of Smith W. Brookhart
Jr. U.S. Army. The document bears the date 8 April 1946. Ziereis died 23
May 1945.

The pretense was that Ziereis was too seriously injured (he died of
multiple
gunshot wounds through the stomach) to sign anything at the time, but he
was healthy enough to dictate this lengthy and complex document, which
was
then "remembered" exactly and verbatim by Marsalek for 10 and
a half months. Marsalek would, of course, have had no motivation to lie.
The document is in German. Brookhart was a confession ghostwriter who
also
wrote the "confessions" of Rudolf Hoss (in English, Document 3868-PS)
and Otto Ohlendorf (in German, Document 2620-PS).

Ziereis's "confession" continues to be taken seriously by Reitlinger,
Shirer, Hilberg, and other itinerant peddlars of Holo-Schlock.

Kaltenbrunner claimed that there were 13 central concentration camps or
"Stammlager" during the war (XI 268-269). The prosecution total
of 300 concentration camps was achieved by including perfectly normal
work
camps. The 13th camp, Matzgau, near Danzig, was a special camp whose
prisoners
were SS guards and police who had been sentenced to imprisonment for
offenses
against prisoners in their charge: physical mistreatment, embezzlement,
theft of personal property, etc. This camp with its inmate SS men fell
into
the hands of the Russians at the end of the war (XI 312, 316).

Kaltenbrunner claimed that sentences passed by SS and police courts were
far more severe than sentences passed by other courts for the same
offenses.
The SS carried out frequent trials of their own men for offenses against
inmates and violations of discipline. (XXI 246, 291, 369-370).

Third degree methods of interrogation were permitted by law for the sole
purpose of obtaining information relating to future resistence activity;
it was forbidden for the purpose of obtaining confessions. These
interrogators
required the presence of a doctor, and allowed a total of 20 blows with
a stick once only, on the bare buttocks, a process which could not be
repeated
later. Other forms of legal "Nazi torture" included confinement
in a dark cell, or standing during lengthy interrogations (XX 164, 180-
181;
XXI 502-510; 528-530).

Kaltenbrunner and many other defense witnesses claimed that similar
methods
were used by police all over the world (XI 312) and that respected
police
officials visited Germany to study German procedures (XXI 373).

Defense evidence on this and related topics amounts to many thousands of
pages divided between the Tribunal and "commission", and 136,000
affidavits. (XXI 346-373; 415, 444).

[Photograph -- court scene]

Kaltenbrunner was convicted of conspiring to "lynch" Allied airmen
who committed mass bombings of civilians. The lynchings would have been
illegal, but did not occur. Many airmen were saved from mobs by German
officials.
The Germans refused to contemplate such a matter, fearing it would lead
to a general slaughter of parchuted fliers. Like so many other German
crimes,
this remained an idea without effect. (XXI 406-407, 472-476).

Another crime committed by Kaltenbrunner was responsibility for the so-
called
"Bullet Order". THis is supposed to have been an order to shoot
prisoners of war using a measuring contraption (probably inspired by the
Paul Waldmann pedal-driven brain bashing machine, Document USSR-52, VII
377).

The "Bullet Order", Document 1650-PS, if it is an authentic document,
which it probably is not (XVIII 34-36) is a mistranslation: the sense of
the order is that prisoners who attempt to escape should be chained to
an
iron ball (Kugel), and not that they should be shot with a "bullet"
(also Kugel). The word "chained" appears in the document, but
the word "shot" does not (III 506; XXI 514; Gestapo affidavit
75; XXI 299). The document is a "teletype" thus, without a signature
(XXVII 424-428).

Sonderbehandlung (special treatment) is an example of the ugly jargon
used in all bureaucracies, and is probably best translated as "treatment
on a case by case basis". Kaltenbrunner was able to show that it meant,
in the context of one document, the right to drink champagne and take
French
lessons. The prosecution got a winter resort mixed up with a
concentration
camp (XI 338-339); (XI 232-386; XVIII 40-68). (The winter resort
document
is Document 3839-PS, XXXIII 197-199, an "affidavit").


KEITEL

[Photograph]

Keitel was hanged for alleged responsibility in atrocities said to have
been committed in Russia, and for the Commissar and Night and Fog
Decrees.
The evidence against Keitel consists largely of the "reports"
of Soviet War Crimes Commissions (XVII 611-612, XXII 76-83). These are
summaries
containing final judgments, conclusions, and generalizations without any
underlying evidence or documents. In these reports, military agencies
are
wrongly named and confused.

Among the Soviet documents used to convict Keitel are Documents USSR-4;
9; 10; 35; 38; 40; 90; 364; 366; 407; and 470.

USSR-4 is a "report" which alleges intentional spreading of typhus
epidemics to exterminate the Russian population. Responsibility for this
crime is attributed to the "Hitler Government and the Supreme Command
of the Armed Forces"(1).

(1) See also "Report on U.S. Crimes in Korea", Peking (1952) (American
Germ Warfare). 

Documents USSR-9, 35, and 38 are also Soviet War Crimes Reports.

Document USSR-90 is the judgment of a Soviet military court, and states
that "German fascist intruders committed bestial crimes", and
attributes these crimes to the "German Armed Forces Command".

Original documents are not appended, and specific orders are not
mentioned.
Keitel's name is not mentioned. The other documents are "certified
true copies" (XVIII 9-12) of documents supposedly possessed by the
Russians.

The "Night and Fog Decree" (XVIII 19-22) was intended as an alternative
to shooting resistence members. It was conceded by the prosecution that
such people could be legally shot (V 405) but the Germans considered it
undesirable to sentence everyone to death. Prison sentences were felt to
have little deterrent value, since everyone expected the war to end in a
few years (XXI 524). The Commissar Order had little if any practical
effect,
partly due to the difficulty of determining who was a Commissar. (XXI
404-405;
XXII 77).

Keitel is accused to this day of blocking access to Hitler, that is,
shielding
Hitler from certain information. This accusation, absurd in the extreme,
is refuted on pages 645-661 of volume XVII.

Also used against Keitel was Document 81-PS, quoted in Jackson's opening
speech, and Document USSR-470, a "true copy" (meaning the document
has been re-typed to make the copy) of an "original document"
written entirely in Serbo Croat, and supposedly located in Yugoslavia,
with
a typewritten signature by Keitel. It was not alleged that Keitel
understood
Serbo-Croat, rather that this was a "translation" of a document
written in German which the Yugoslavians did not find (XV 530-536).

Keitel's case appears at X 468-652; XI 1-28; XVII 603-661; and XVIII 1-
40.


VON NEURATH

[Photograph] 

Von Neurath was the victim of a major forgery, Document 3859-PS. The
Czechs
re-typed an authentic document, making extensive alterations and
additions,
and presented a "photocopy" of their "copy" (with typewritten
signatures) to the Tribunal. The original document was in
Czechoslovakia.

On this document, nearly everything is wrong: German bureaucracy was
extremely
complex, and many prosecution documents bear wrong addresses, false
references,
and incorrect procedural markings which are not immediately obvious. In
relation to this document, Von Neurath said,

"I regret to say that you are lying" (XVII 67; 373-377).

Von Neurath was convicted of closing Czech universities (not a crime
under
international law when performed by an occupation government) and
shooting
9 Czech student leaders after a demonstration. These crimes were
"proven"
with various documents: USSR-489, a "certified true copy", certified
by the Czechs; USSR-60, a "report" of a "War Crimes Commission",
quoting the "statements" of Karl Hermann Frank, which were not
appended to the report; and USSR-494, an "affidavit" signed by
Karl Hermann Frank 33 days before his execution. The statements
attributed
to Frank in the War Crimes Report were, of course, not signed or dated,
and the original documents were in Czechoslovakia (XVII 85-90).

Much of the "evidence" concocted against Von Neurath, Schacht,
Von Papen, Raeder, and others came from the affidavits of an elderly
American
diplomat living in Mexico (Documents 1760-PS; 2385-PS; 2386-PS; EC-451).

The diplomat, Messersmith, was claimed to be too old to come to court
(II
350); it was denied, however, that he was senile (II 351-352). The
"evidence"
consists of Messersmith's personal opinions as to the motivations and
character
of other people.

Von Neurath's case appears at XVI 593-673; XVII 2-107; XIX 216-311.


VON PAPEN

[Photograph]

Von Papen was accused of conspiring with Hitler to induce Hindenberg to
take Hilter into government as Reichschancellor. According to this view,
Hindenberg was deceived by Von Papen into believing that civil war would
ensue if this was not done.

The Reichschancelor at that time, General Von Schleicher, had attempted
to rule illegally and unconstitutionally for some time without the
support
of the National Socialists, who enjoyed the largest majority in the
history
of the Reichstag. Many of Hitler's illegalities actually date back to
the
period of Von Schleicher's rule (XXII 102-103). This was the only
alternative
to the chaos of 41 political parties, each representing some private
financial
interest.

The democratic victors demanded of Von Papen, in 1946, that he should
ahve
foreseen Hitler's intent to wage "aggresive war" in 1933, and
conspired with Von Schleicher to rule through military dictatorship.

Von Schleicher was later shot following the Rohm Putsch. These shootings
were considered legal by Hindenberg, as was evidenced by a telegram
congratulating
Hitler (XX 291; XXI 350; 577-578; XXII 117). Von Papen also considered
the
shooting of Rohm and his followers to have been justified by emergency
(XVI
364), but considered that many other murders took place which were not
justified,
and that it was Hitler's duty to conduct an investigation and punish
these
acts. This was not done.

It was conceded by the prosecution at Nuremberg that the Nazi Part
Program
contained nothing illegal, and was indeed almost laudable (II 105). The
National Socialists were declared legal by the occupation authorities in
the Rheinland in 1925 (XXI 455) and by the German Supreme Court in 1932
(XXI 568) and by the League of Nations and Polish Resident General in
Danzig
in 1930 (XVIII 169).

It was not clear in 1933 that the Army would unanimously support Von
Schleicher
against the National Socialists, who had a legal right to govern.
Hindenberg's
refusal to violate the Constitution at the risk of civil war brought
Hitler
into government in an entirely legal manner (see also XXII 111-112).

Von Papen was accused of "immoral acts in furtherance of the Common
Plan", such as the use of the intimate "du" form in conversation
with the Austrian Foreign Minister, Guido Schmidt: Von Papen remarked,
"Sir
David, if you had ever been in Austria in your life, you would know that
in Austria almost everyone says 'du' to everyone else". (XVI 394).

Acts of Von Papen's which could not be called "criminal" were
used to prove the defendant's "duplicity" (no pun intended). A
mental construction was placed on Von Papen's acts with the benefit of
hindsight.

It is sometimes alleged that since Von Papen, Fritzsche and Schacht were
acquitted, Nuremberg was a "fair trial". The contrary does not
apply to the International Military Tribunal of the Far East, or other
trials
in which there were no acquittals; it is forgotten that the witchcraft
trials
of the XVIIth Century averaged 5-10% in acquittals.

Von Papen's case appears at XVI 236-422; XIX 124-177.


RAEDER

Raeder was accused of "conspiring" with the Japanese to attack
the United States. Other crimes committed by Raeder included listening
to
speeches, being present at conferences, having knowledge of contingency
plans, and accepting birthday gifts.

Raeder proved that the Americans knew of the impending Pearl Harbour
attack
10 days before it occured, while the Germans knew nothing (XIV 122).

Raeder's discussion of German military preparedness and Hitler speeches
will be discussed together with Von Ribbentrop's. (XIII 595-599; 617-
631;
XIV 1-246; XVIII 372-430.)

[Photograph]


VON RIBBENTROP

Von Ribbentrop was hanged for signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which
preceeded and made possible the attack on Poland.

Ribbentrop defended his actions on the grounds that one million Germans
had been expelled from Polish territory over a 20-year period,
accompanied
by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World Court in The
Hague
and the League of Nations in Geneva had been ignored for just as long.
These
were ethnic Germans with Polish citizenship living in lands given to the
new Polish state under the Versailles Treaty.

On October 23, 1938, Ribbentrop made an offer to the Poles which the
British
ambassador, Sir Neville Henderson, admitted was reasonable, calling it a
"pure League of Nations proposal": Ribbentrop asked for a plebiscite
in the Polish corridor; the return of Danzig (a 100% German city) to the
Reich, and the construction of an extra-territorial double-track railway
and highway across the Corridor to East Prussia, which had previously
been
separated from the rest of Germany and could only be reached by sea, in
defiance of all common sense, that is, a land bridge to East Prussia. (X
260-269; 280-281; 367-369).

In return, the Poles were to receive an advantageous financial
settlement:
a guarantee of port facilities and outlet for Polish goods through the
port
of Danzig. The future of the Corridor was to be decided according to the
principle of self-determination, the Poles would receive an outlet to
the
sea, and the German-Polish Friendship Pact (signed by Hitler in 1934 in
the face of bitter German opposition), would be renewed for an
additional
period. (XIX 362-369. For the prosecution version of these same events,
see III 209-229).

[Photograph]

This was the "Nazi Plan to conquer the world" which served as
a pretext for the entire war, including, eventually, Pearl Harbor,
Hiroshima,
and Yalta.

In reply, the Poles maintained that any change in the status of Danzig
would
mean war with Poland. A general mobilization was ordered. The expulsions
continued, filling refugee camps along the Polish border.

The Polish ambassador, Lipski, reportedly stated on August 31, 1939,
that
he was well aware of conditions in Germany, having served there for many
years. He was not interested in any note or proposal from Germany. In
the
event of war, revolution would break out in Germany, and the Polish Army
would march in triumph to Berlin (XVII 520-521; 564-566; XX 607).

Ribbentrop claimed that the attitude of the Poles made war inevitable;
that
the problem of the Corridor and the expulsions had to be solved; that
for
both Hitler and Stalin the territories involved had been lost to both
countries
after a disastrous war followed by equally disastrous treaties (X 224-
444;
XVII 555-603).

To the Germans at Nuremberg, there appeared only one explanation: the
Poles
and the British were in contact with the so-called German underground,
which
had grossly exaggerated its own importance (XVII 645-661; XIII 111-112).

Hitler's interpreter appeared as a witness, and testified that the
Germans
could not believe that the British would go to war over something which
their ambassador admitted was reasonable. According to the interpreter,
Paul Schmidt, there was a full minute of silence when the message of the
British declaration of war was delivered, after which Hitler turned to
Ribbentrop
and said "What shall we do now?" (X 200).

Schmidt's testimony shed light on a famous remark attributed to Von
Ribbentrop,
that Jews should be killed or confined to concentration camps. What
happened,
according to Schmidt (X 203-204) was that Hitler was putting pressure on
Horthy to take stronger measures against Jews. Horthy said, "What am
I supposed to do? I can't kill them." Ribbentrop was very irritable
and said, "There are two alternatives: either you can do just that,
or they can be interned." This appeared in the minutes of the conference
as "The Reichs Foreign Minister said that Jews should be killed or
confined to concentration camps". The statement was used against
Ribbentrop
and all other defendants during the trial, despite Schmidt's testimony
that
the minutes were inaccurate. (X 410-411).

According to Ribbentrop, Raeder, Goring, and nearly all defendants
except
Schacht, the Germans were not prepared for war and did not plan
"aggression"
(XVII 522, XXII 62, 90).

The invasion of Belgium, Holland, and France were not "aggression",
because France had declared war on Germany. Belgium and Holland allowed
British planes to fly over their countries every night to bomb the Ruhr.
The Germans protested in writing 127 times (XVII 581, XIX 10).

Goring, Raeder, Milch and many others testified that Germany had only 26
Atlantic submarines with insufficient torpedoes, as opposed to 315
submarines
in 1919 (XIV 26) and a "ridiculous" bomb supply (XIX 4-5).

Hitler told Field Marshall Milch in May 1939 that there was no need for
full bomb production, as there would be no war. Milch replied that full
bomb production would take several months to bring to capacity. The
order
to begin full production of bombs was not given until October 12 or 20,
1939 (IX 50; XVII 522).

The German Air Force was designed for defensive, pin-point bombing; the
Germans cooperated with both the Russians and the British in exchange of
technical information of military value until 1938 (IX 45-133; XIV 298-
350).

The Germans never built anywhere near the number of ships and especially
submarines (XIV 24) allowed to them under the terms of the Anglo-German
Naval Accord of 1935 (XVIII 379-389). This agreement represented a
recognition
by the British that the Versailles Treaty was out of date. It was also a
voluntarily undertaken limitation by Hitler of German naval armament.
(XIX
224-232).

When war broke out, many large German battleships were still under
construction
and had to be scrapped, because they would have taken years to finish
(XIII
249-250; 620). According to an affidavit signed by her captain, one of
Germany's
largest battleships, the Gneisenau, was on a training cruise near the
Canary
Islands when war broke out, without any ammunition supplies (XXI 385).

Hitler was a bluffer who loved to terrify politicians with grossly
illogical,
self-contradictory speeches (XIV 34-48; 329-330), which all contradicted
each other (XXII 66-68). For this reason, exact stenographic notes were
never taken until 1941 (XIV 314-315).

Many "Hitler speeches" are semi-falsifications or forgeries (XVII
406-408; XVIII 390-402; XXII 65).

The Germans believed they were no longer bound by the Versailles Treaty
because its terms - the preamble to Part V - had been violated by the
British,
and especially the French. German disarmament was to be followed by
general
disarmament (IX 4-7; XIX 242, 356).

Hitler had offered to disarm to the last machine gun, provided other
nations
did likewise; but Germany could not remain in a weakened position
forever,
to be invaded and crushed at any moment. The reoccupation of the
Rhineland
gave Germany a natural frontier protecting the Ruhr, and would have been
a matter of course for any government. Eastern Europe seethed with
conflict
between heavily armed states; East Prussia was not defensible; the Poles
were openly demanding parts of Upper Silesia. (XII 476-479; XIX 224-232;
XX 570-571).

The French-Soviet Accord of 5 December 1934 violated the Locarno Pact,
which
the Germans were convicted of violating (XIX 254; 269; 277).

It was not clear that the occupation of the remainder of Czechoslovakia
violated the Munich Accord (X 259). This was done because the Russians
were
building airports there, in cooperation with the Czechs. The Czechs
hoped
to turn the remainder of Czechoslovakia into a "aircraft carrier"
>from  which Germany could be attacked (X 348; 427-430). Roosevelt had
declared
that American interest extended to all of the Western Hemisphere, and
Britain
claimed dominion over half the world; surely German interest could
extend
as far as Czechoslovakia. From Prague to Berlin by plane is half an
hour;
Czech actions were plainly threatening to German security.


ROSENBERG & SAUCKEL

[Photographs]

Like Frank, Rosenberg was accused of "looting" and "plundering"
works of art. Rosenberg and Frank both pointed out that Germany was
required
to protect works of art under the terms of The Hague Convention, and
that
doing so required removing them from the scene of hostilities. The
artworks
were carefully packed, appraised and repaired. Had it been the German
intention
to "loot" or to "steal", it would not have been necessary
to catalogue these artworks with an exact notation of the name and
address
of the owner, if that was known.

Several works of art were appropriated by Goring, not for Goring's
personal
use, but for a museum which Hitler intended to create in Linz. Rosenberg
protested against this appropriation on the grounds that it was his duty
to maintain the collections intact until the end of the war in the hope
that a peace settlement could be made regarding these objects.

Rosenberg was also accused of stealing thousands of railroad car loads
of
furniture. The furniture had belonged to Jews who had abandoned their
homes
upon German arrival in Paris. The Jewish apartments were sealed for 90
days,
then the property in them was confiscated as abandoned, since its
safekeeping
could not be assured. Eventually it was used for the benefit of Germans
who had been rendered homeless by bombing raids. Again, it was hoped to
make a settlement at the end of the war.

Rosenberg's ministry received a large number of complaints, which were
investigated.
many were found to have no basis in fact. At Nuremberg, it was simply
assumed
that every complaint was "true". Letters to Rosenberg were used
against him in evidence, though his answers to those letters had been
lost.
The complaints and letters were held to prove "willing membership in
the Common Plan".

Rosenberg was accused of conspiring with Sauckel to obtain "slaves"
for the war effort from the occupied territories. Rosenberg, Sauckel,
Speer,
Goring, and Seyss-Inquart all protested that had it not been for the
Allied
blockade such "plundering" and "slavery" would not have
been necessary; that the sea blockade was illegal, and caused mass
unemployment
in the occupied territories; and that occupation governments are allowed
to demand payment in services under the Hague Convention. The "slaves"
were paid the same wages as German workers, who were also subject to
compulsory
labour. Funk claimed the "slaves" remitted 2 billion Reichsmarks
in wages to their families (XIII 136). Seyss-Inquart claimed there were
500,000 unemployed in Holland as a result of the blockade, and if they
were
not provided with employment, voluntary or otherwise, they would join
the
resistence movement, illegal under international law. They were quite
happy
to work on German fortifications in Holland, because this made it less
likely
that the Allied invasion would take place in Holland. (The likelihood of
Allied invasion was also the reason for the deportation of Dutch Jews).
(XV 662-668; XIX 99-102).

Fritzsche and others testified that the "slaves" could be seen
moving about freely in all German cities (XVII 163-164), had plenty of
money,
and controlled the black market (XIV 590). Moreover, hundreds of
thousands
of these "slaves" refused to leave the country after the war,
even though their own countries had been "liberated" and Germany
was devastated (XVIII 155). Nor did the "slaves" revolt at the
end of the war (XVIII 129-163; 466-506; XIX 177-216; XXI 471-472).

Sauckel testified that the "slave labour" recruitment in France
was carried out by the French government and by French collaborationist
organizations. Many persons wished to be "compelled" in order
to avoid reprisals by the resistance (XV 1-263) but all were paid the
same
wages as German workers and enjoyed the same health benefits and terms
of
contract. Far from "looting" the occupied territories, it was
necessary to import much valuable equipment. In Russia, everything had
been
destroyed during the retreat by the Russians. When Germans imported
equipment
and withdrew it during their own retreat, this was called "looting"
(IX 171-172).

An example of a "complaint" which became a "crime" was
the case in which theatre goers were reportedly rounded up into
"slavery".
Sauckel investigated for some months, and found this to have been a case
in which a labour contractor interrupted a party of his own workers in
order
to move them to another workplace (XV 17-18).

As conditions worsened, more compulsion became necessary. If the Allies
had the right to confiscate property of neutrals at sea, the Germans had
the right to utilize the resources of occupied territories on land.

Another accusation against Rosenberg was the so-called "Hay Action",
in which 50,000 children were "kidnapped" into "slave labour".
Rosenberg and Von Schirach both testified that this was an
apprenticeship
program designed to remove orphans from the war zone (XI 489-490; XIV
501-505).
If Rosenberg's ministry did not remove the orphans from the area, the
Army
would do it.

A related accusation is the "Lebensborn" organization, supposedly
a plot to kidnap babies after measuring the size of their penises
(according
to mentally ill Jewish "historians"). The purpose of this organization
was to remove the stigma of illegitimacy and to aid families with
numerous
children (XXI 654-664, German volumes. See also XXI 352, English
volumes).

Rosenberg's case appears at XI 444-599; XVIII 69-128.


SCHACHT

Schacht is an anomaly as a defendant because the accusations against him
contradict those made against the other defendants. While the others
were
accused of "acts of moral turpitude" such as accepting birthday
gifts; making birthday speeches; being photographed; signing laws
legally
passed by the Head of State; being in political agreement with the Head
of State; or if not, failing in their moral duty to overthrow and murder
the Head of State (obviously not a duty that can be opposed by law);
Schacht
was accused of all these things, and, for good measure, violating his
oath
of loyalty to Hitler and deceiving Hitler! This was considered proof of
particular wickedness (XII 597).

[Photograph]

Schacht's remark on the necessity of lying has been widely quoted to
prove
Nazi duplicity; it is forgotten that the person being lied to was
Hitler.

Schacht ridiculed these accusations with one wisecrack after another,
and
was even more sarcastic than Goring. Jackson, however, lacked the
perspicacity
to realize that Schacht was making a fool of him (XII 416-493; 507-602;
XIII 1-48; XVIII 270-312).

Jackson's lie that he forced Schacht to "admit that he lied" has
been taken seriously by many people who should know better. Jackson
habitually
lied (for example, II 438; IX 500-504).


VON SCHIRACH

Von Schirach was accused of conspiring with millions of children to
conquer
the world in imitation Boy Scout uniforms. It was pointed out in his
defense
that a conspiracy involving millions of members is a logical absurdity
(XIV
360-537; XVIII 430-466).

To further this aim, the conspirators engaged in target practice with
.22
calibre rifles (XIV 381) and sang songs which were sometimes 300 years
old
(XIV 474).

At Nuremberg, crimes could be found anywhere. In the case against the
SA,
an article on foot care was quoted to prove "intent to engage in
aggressive
war" (XXI 221-223).

Schirach was accused of knowledge of atrocities by Hans Marsalek, whose
"recollection" of Ziereis's "confession" (in quotation
marks) one year after Ziereis died, was used against Kaltenbrunner (XI
330-333;
XIV 436-440).

Another crime committed by Schirach was being short and fat (affidavit
of
Georg Ziemer, 244-PS, XIV 401). Schirach denied this charge. (A "short,
fat student leader" had delivered an anti-Semitic speech.)

Schirach was supposed to have received Einsatzgruppen reports at his
office
as Gauleiter of Vienna. These documents are photocopies of "true copies"
on plain paper without headings or signature, prepared by unknown
persons,
and found buried in a salt mine (II 157) by the Russians (IV 245, VIII
293-301).
Katyn is listed as a German crime (NMT IX 96-117, Trial of Otto
Ohlendorf).

The Germans are supposed to have killed 22,000,000 people (XXII 238), or
12,000,000 (XXII 312), after which the bodies were burned and the
documents
were buried. Documents are combustible and bodies are not.

Schirach and Streicher were both taken in by a "photocopy" of
a Hitler document in which he "confessed" to mass killings (XIV
432; XII 321). Since Hitler was a genius (X 600), and since geniuses do
not kill millions of people with Diesel exhaust and insecticides which
take
24 hours to kill moths (Document NI-9912), it appears that the
significance
of this document has been overrated. In fact, it is typical Hitler: full
of violent language, but short of factual content. Nor is it certain
that
Hitler was of sound mind in 1945 (IX 92). The Hitler 'confession' is a
"certified"
photocopy (Striecher Defense Document 9, XLI 547).


SEYSS-INQUART

Seyss-Inquart is an example of the manner in which perfectly legal
actions
were charged as "crimes" when undertaken by Germans, while identical
actions, or actions criminal under the Tribunal's own Statute (such as
the
Dresden bombings, illegal under Article 6(b). XXII 471, 475) were
treated
as the minor inconveniences of a great crusade to eradicate evil.

Under international law, occupation governments are allowed to legislate
as they see fit (a right claimed by the Tribunal itself, XXII 461, but
contradicted
at XXII 497) and obedience to their authority is required. They are
allowed
to conscript labour within certian limits, to confiscate government
property,
levy taxes to cover the costs of occupation, and are not required to
tolerate
armed resistence, striking, publication of hostile newspapers, or to
employ
local officials who will not follow orders. Initialling documents or
passing
on orders are not crimes under international law. Seyss-Inquart
prevented
much unnecessary destruction at the end of the war which would have been
illegal. (XV 610-668; XVI 1-113; XIX 46-111).

As Reichskommissar for Holland, Seyss-Inquart passed on orders to
execute
resistence members after conviction for acts of sabotage or armed
resistence,
illegal under The Hague Convention. The executions were carried out
after
renewed acts of sabotage occurred. This was called "execution of
hostages".
The word "hostage", however, is incorrect (XII 95, XVIII 17-19;
XXI 526, 535).

For a discussion of international law from the prosecution point of
view,
conceding the legality of these actions, see V 537. It was conceded by
the
prosecution that resistence members may be shot (V 405).

* The Fourth Hague Convention on Land Warfare of 18 October 1907
contains
an all-participation clause (Art. 2); belligerants violating the
convention
may be required to pay compensation (Art. 3); prohibits bombardments "by
whatever means" of undefended cities, cultural monuments (Art. 23).
Not ratified by Bulgaria, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia. Ratified by Czarist
Russia.


SPEER

[Photograph] 

Albert Speer was convicted of conspiring to enslave millions of people
for
work in German armaments industries, where they were forced to sleep in
urinals (Document D-288, Affidavit of Dr. Wilhelm Jager) and were
tortured
in mass-produced torture boxes disguised as clothes lockers (Documents
USA-894,
897.)

Regarding this charge, Speer said, 
I consider this affidavit a lie . . . it is not possible to
drag the German people in the dirt in such a way" (XVI 543).
Speer was the kind of man who is successful under any system. He always
claimed he knew nothing about "exterminations", but said he would
have heard about it if prisoners had been cremated using atomic bombs (a
Robert Jackson hallucination, XVI 529-530).

Speer claimed to have plotted to assassinate Hitler using a highly
sophisticated
nerve gas (XVI 494-495). The plot failed because the gas could only be
produced
at high temperatures (XVI 529).

Actually, Zyklon presents a similar problem, in that the liquid must
evaporate,
and does so slowly unless heated. German technical wizardry and
industrial
advancement in general renders ridiculous any notion of a "Holocaust"
using insecticide or Diesel exhaust. It would be more difficult to "drag
the German people in the dirt" if it were not for people like Albert
Speer. XVI 430-588; XIX 177-216.


STREICHER

[Photograph]

Streicher was hanged for 'incitement to race hatred', a crime which is
becoming
more popular. The Streicher case is remarkable in that nations which
preach
separation of church and state and freedom of speech and press should
conspire
with Jews and Communists to hang a man for expressing opinions which
were
not alleged to have been untrue.

One of Streicher's crimes was the publication of a 'ritual murder'
supplement
in his anti-Semitic newspaper, Der Sturmer. It was expressly admitted by
the prosecution that his illustrations were authentic (V 103) and that
the
article was referenced correctly. Among Streicher's references was at
least
one recognised scholar, Dr. Erich Bischof of Leipzig, and modern legal
proceedings
(IX 696-700). It was felt that to investigate the validity of these
references
would have unduly prolonged the trial, so the article was not alleged to
have been untrue. Rather, an act of mental telepathy was performed, and
Streicher was hanged for his alleged mental processes and motivation.

Another Streicher crime was calling the Old Testament "a horrible
criminal
romance . . . this 'holy book' abounds in murder, incest, fraud, theft
and
indecency". No evidence was introduced to rebut this view (V 96).

Streicher is famous as a 'pornographer', 'sex pervert' and 'swindler'.
The
'pornography collection', upon further examination, turned out to be the
Sturmer archive of Judaica (XII 409). The 'sex pervert' charge, heavily
emphasized by the Russians, had as its origin the so-called Goring
Report,
a Party disciplinary proceeding brought by one of Streicher's many
enemies.
This charge was dropped at Nuremberg and stricken from the record;
Streicher
was told he need not answer any questions related to this accusation
(XII
330; 339).

The 'property swindle' was also drawn from the Goring Report, and
related
to a single case, involving the Mars Works. The man responsible for the
accusations contained in the report was, by some coincidence, the man
responsible
for the purchase (V 106). The report states that the shares were
returned,
and that the money that Streicher had paid for them, 5000 Reichsmarks,
was
returned to Streicher after the investigation.

Streicher gave his business managers full power of attorney to do as
they
liked, saying "Do not worry me with business matters There are other
things more important than money". Streicher claimed his newspaper
was published in a rented house until the end of the war. It was not a
Party
newspaper, and Streicher had nothing to do with the war.

One of Streicher's employees appeared as a witness and stated, "Whoever
knows Herr Streicher as I do, knows that Herr Streicher has never taken
anything from a Jew" (XII 385-386).

Streicher's second wife, Adele Streicher, appeared and stated, "I
consider
it quite impossible that Julius Streicher acquired shares that way. I
believe
that he does not even know what a share looks like". (XII 391).

It was not alleged at Nuremberg that Streicher wrote all his own
articles
and publications. "Trau keinem Fuchs auf gruner Heid, und keinem Jud'
bei seinem Eid", translated by the prosecution as "Don't trust
a Fox Whatever You Do, Nor Yet the Oath of any Jew" (XXXVIII 129) took
its title from Martin Luther. 'Der Giftpilz', (The Poisonous Fungus) was
written by one of Streicher's editors, inspired by a famous child
molester
case, that of the Jewish industrialist, Louis Schloss. (XII 335).

Schloss was later murdered in Dachau, which became another 'Nazi
atrocity'.
In the prosecution discussion of the Schloss murder, it is never
mentioned
that he was a sexual attacker of children; instead it was implied that
Schloss
was killed for being Jewish, and for no other reason. (Document 664-PS,
XXVI 174-187).

No causal nexus was ever shown between Streicher, Frank or Rosenberg's
anti-Semitic
beliefs and the commission of any crime; nor was it proven that the
crime
involved (i.e., the so-called "Holocaust") was ever even committed.
This was assumed, and Streicher's writings were assumed to have helped
'cause'
it.

Streicher made several 'highly improper' remarks which were stricken
from
the record, and for which he was admonished, with the consent of his
attorney,
Dr Marx. One of these remarks has been deleted after the fifth paragraph
of page 310 of volume XII of the typeset transcript, but may be found on
pages 8494-5 of the mimeographed transcript. Streicher said: 
If I might finish now with a description of my own
life, it will be with the description of an experience which will show
you,
gentlemen, of the Tribunal, that without the government's wanting it,
things
may happen which are not human, not according to the principals of
humanity.

Gentlemen, I was arrested, and during my internment I experienced things
such as we, the Gestapo, have been accused of. For four days I was
without
clothes in a cell. I was burned; I was thrown on the floor; and an iron
chain was put upon me. I had to kiss the feet of Negroes who spit in my
face. Two coloured men and a white officer spit in my mouth, and when I
didn't open it any more, they opened it with a wooden stick, and when I
asked for water I was led to the latrine and I was ordered to drink from
there.

In Wiesbaden, gentlemen, a doctor took pity, and I state here a Jewish
director
of the hospital acted correctly. I state here, in order not to be
misunderstood,
the Jewish officers who are guarding us here in prison have acted
correctly,
and doctors who also treat me have even been considerate. And you may
see
>from  this statement the contrast from that prison until this moment.
Another 'improper remark' has been deleted after the first paragraph on
page 349 of volume XII, and appears in the mimeographed transcript on
page
8549: 
So as to avoid a misunderstanding, I have to say that
I was beaten in Freising so much and for days without clothes that I
have
lost forty per cent of my hearing capacity and people are laughing when
I ask. I can't help it that I was treated like that. Therefore, I ask to
hear the question again.
To which Lt. Col. Griffith-Jones replied: 
I can show it to you and we'll repeat the question
as loud as you want it. 

Since this was a matter within Streicher's personal knowledge, and not
hearsay,
it is difficult to see why the remarks were stricken, while hearsay
favourable
to the prosecution was retained (indeed, the prosecution case consists
of
little else beside oral and written hearsay). If the prosecution did not
believe Streicher's testimony that he had been tortured, they were free
to cross-examine him for inconsistencies and to show that he was lying;
instead, he was simply admonished, and the passages stricken. So much
for
truth, justice, and a fair trial.

Streicher claimed that his demands for the 'extermination' of Jewry were
mostly brought about by the bombing raids and calls for extermination of
the German people from the other side; 
If in America an author called Erich Kauffman can publicly
demand that all men in Germany capable of fathering children should be
sterilised,
for the purpose of exterminating the German people, then I say, eye for
eye and tooth for tooth. This is a theoretical literary matter.
(XII 366). (V 91-119; XII 305-416; XVII 190-220).

For the Nuremberg Prosecution Case, see 
MADE IN RUSSIA - THE HOLOCAUST,
edited by Carlos W Porter.

>From  CODOH

CHECK OUT THESE WEB SITES
CODOH        http://www.codoh.com/
GREG RAVEN   http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
ERNST ZUNDEL http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english
             
THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html
ADELAIDE INSTITUTE http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html
*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Roberts
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life. 
Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep 13 15:21:54 PDT 1996
Article: 65159 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mem.bellsouth.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:18:45 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <51cfj5$igi@juliana.sprynet.com>
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>   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  : I don't know whether you read the original post or not.  I wanted to 
>  : address this issue and settle it once and for all because I had read it 
>  : so often in books on the Third Reich.  That was all there was to it.
>  
>  There's nothing to settle, really.  Streicher was widely considered
>  a pornographer, both by his enemies and by his ostensible allies 
>  (most of whom despised him).  He was never tried or convicted for
>  being a pornographer, and nobody I know has ever suggested he was.
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
Agreed.  Consequently it follows that those who refer to him as a 
pornographer are simply stating their own opinions.  However, in the 
books I read he is referred to as an actual purveyor of pornography.
This is false.

rb


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep 13 15:21:55 PDT 1996
Article: 65160 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:22:49 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <51cfqp$igi@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <51airu$i0u@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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>   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  : >   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  
>  : >  I agree with you that his sentence was unjust, although I have to 
>  : >  grit my teeth to use the word.  I think that, in view of the fact
>  : >  that he merely encourage and propagandized for genocide without
>  : >  actually participating in it, he should have been sentenced to life
>  : >  in prison.
>  
>  : Then you will agree that allied propangandists also should have 
>  : been imprisoned for life for inciting against the Germans and 
>  : Japanese?  
>  
>  Nope.  I detest wartime propaganda, but nobody should be imprisoned
>  merely for expressing an opinion.  When that expression is intended
>  as incitement to a crime, however, and when that crime then takes 
>  place, the inciter is also guilty.  That was the point of my little
>  thought experiment on the topic of your imaginary unstable acquaintance
>  and his unfortunate mother.
>  
>  Streicher's job was to stir public opinion against the Jews, so that 
>  the Nazi program for eliminating them could be more easily carried 
>  out.  He was very good at it.
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
Mr. Anderson:  Who assigned Steicher this "job" as you put it?  He was
publishing Der Stuermer YEARS before the Nazis ever came to power.
He had a maximum subscription rate of 700,000 before the war, which 
dropped to 400,000 during the war-in a nation of 80,000,000 people.  He
was not allowed to make broadcasts to the German nation nor to the German
armed forces during the war.  Not so the case with Ilya Ehrenburg.  Please read
my posts concerning this issue.  You cannot have it both ways.  The law
must apply to ALL, or else the ends of justice are not served, only revenge.
rb


From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep 13 15:21:56 PDT 1996
Article: 65161 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:16:26 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 34
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References: 
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>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article ,
>  schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>  
>  > In article <50qs0l$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  > 
>  > > 6.  You stated that Streicher was convicted of inciting the German
>  > > people to mass murder the Jews. I replied that his paper had a 
>  > > subscription list of 400,000 people during the war years, in a nation of 
>  > > 80,000,000.  Most of the subscribers were obviously old geriatric cases 
>  > > like Streicher, 
>  >
>  > [snip]
>  >  
>  > like Hitler?
>  
>  Or like Ho"ss?  When asked by Gilbert if he "had ever considered whether
>  the Jews whom he had murdered were guilty or had in any way desrved such a
>  fate" Ho"ss replied, "Don't you see, we SS men were not supposed to think
>  about these things; it never occured to us. And besides, it was something
>  already taken for granted that the Jews were to blame for everything....we
>  just never heard anything else. It was not just newspapers like _Stu"rmer_
>  but it was everything we heard. Even our military and ideological training
>  took for granted that we had to protect Gemrany from the Jews..."
>  (_Nurmeberg Diary_, p.259.) 
>  
>  What was that saying about pens and swords? 
>  
>  Mark
>  (snip)
>  
>>>>
Of course we will soon see documented proof posted that Hoess was a paid
subscriber to Der Stuermer.....won't we?


From rblackmoe@juno.com Fri Sep 13 15:21:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65162 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:14:23 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <51cfav$igi@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
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>   schwartz@infinet.com writes:
>  In article <50qs0l$fe1@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  > 6.  You stated that Streicher was convicted of inciting the German
>  people to mass
>  >       murder the Jews.  I replied that his paper had a subscription list
>  of 400,000 people
>  >      during the war years, in a nation of 80,000,000.  Most of the
>  subscribers were obviously
>  >      old geriatric cases like Streicher, 
>  [snip]
>   
>  like Hitler?
>  
>  -- 
>  "I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>      Edith Sitwell
>  
>>>>
Do you have any documents to support the contention that Hitler 
subscribed and for how long?  DO NOT post other people's state-
ments that Hitler read it from cover to cover, etc.  I am asking for
DOCUMENTED PROOF as to his paid subscription, and what
period of time that covered.  perhaps he was sent complementary issues?

rb


From klewis@awinc.com Fri Sep 13 19:13:41 PDT 1996
Article: 65231 of alt.revisionism
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From: klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:16:16 GMT
Organization: Electric Zen
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References:  <51cjlg$mdq@juliana.sprynet.com>
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On 13 Sep 1996 21:28:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) writes:
>>  In article <50m4a0$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  [snip]
>>  
>>  > Give me a break.  I don't give a damn aboout the nasty jooos, as you 
>>  > put it.  I'm not hung up about the "conspiratorial jooooos, much as you
>>  > would like me to be. 
>>  
>>  [snip]
>>  
>>  Of course, that's why you made groundless accusations against the Simon
>>  Wiesenthal Center.
>>  
>>>>>
>That's a different issue altogether.  And you will receive no reply to your questions
>until you conduct yourself in a proper manner.

Traslation: I will use any excuse so I don't have to back up my claim.



From rblackmore@juno.com Fri Sep 13 22:44:39 PDT 1996
Article: 65268 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:26:37 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <51cg1t$igi@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
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>   schwartz@infinet.com writes:
>  In article <50ot91$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  
>  > That is what I have been trying to do for the past 22 posts.  Somehow you
>  > people just don't seem to get the idea-maybe you are dense..Why can't you
>  > jjust admit that the Streicher sentence was unjust?  Oh well, I suppose your
>  > 20 odd posts already testify to that fact.
>  
>  
>  Mr. Blackmore/Belling:
>   
>  Are you stupid?
>   
>  Many people have ALREADY agreed that Streicher's sentence was unjust.
>   
>  But his SENTENCE (the decision of the Court) and his being a PORNOGRAPHER
>  (publishing pornography) are TWO SEPERATE THINGS. 
>   
>  LET ME TRY IN AGAIN IN LITTLE WORDS:
>   
>  STREICHER WAS ***NOT*** SENTENCED FOR BEING A PORNOGRAPHER. HE WAS
>  SENTENCED FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
>  
>  Sara
>  
>  -- 
>  "I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>      Edith Sitwell
>  
>>>>
Sara-let me state so YOU can understand.  I never said that he WAS
sentenced to death for being a pornographer.  My purpose in posting
the original thread was to show that the references made by "establishment"
historians was a falsification.  As far as his being sentenced to death for "Crimes
against Humanity", that was also bunk, as I have explained to you many times 
through e-mail correspondence.


From klewis@awinc.com Fri Sep 13 22:44:41 PDT 1996
Article: 65277 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news
From: klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:46:43 GMT
Organization: Electric Zen
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <323a1650.1231308@news.awinc.com>
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On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:17:54 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:


#But his SENTENCE (the decision of the Court) and his being a PORNOGRAPHER
#(publishing pornography) are TWO SEPERATE THINGS. 
# 
#LET ME TRY IN AGAIN IN LITTLE WORDS:
# 
#STREICHER WAS ***NOT*** SENTENCED FOR BEING A PORNOGRAPHER. HE WAS
#SENTENCED FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
#
#Sara


You are wasting your time, Sara. This one just keeps trolling. He knows it
wasn't about  Streicher being a pornographer, he just wishes to make it that
way. A denier red herring. He also wishes to offer up his own definition of
porography regardless of the fact that for its time Streicher's material was
pornographic.

"Julius Streicher, the Gauleiter of Nuremberg and one of Hitler's oldest
companions, was always an outsider in the party because of his sex-obsessed
antisemitism and his flagrant corruption."

				Albert Speer
				October 13, 1946




From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep 14 08:50:13 PDT 1996
Article: 65339 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 14 Sep 1996 07:14:42 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 28
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>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>  On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:17:54 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>  
>  
>  #But his SENTENCE (the decision of the Court) and his being a PORNOGRAPHER
>  #(publishing pornography) are TWO SEPERATE THINGS. 
>  # 
>  #LET ME TRY IN AGAIN IN LITTLE WORDS:
>  # 
>  #STREICHER WAS ***NOT*** SENTENCED FOR BEING A PORNOGRAPHER. HE WAS
>  #SENTENCED FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
>  #
>  #Sara
>  
>  
>  You are wasting your time, Sara. This one just keeps trolling. He knows it
>  wasn't about  Streicher being a pornographer, he just wishes to make it that
>  way. A denier red herring. He also wishes to offer up his own definition of
>  porography regardless of the fact that for its time Streicher's material was
>  pornographic.
>  
>  "Julius Streicher, the Gauleiter of Nuremberg and one of Hitler's oldest
>  companions, was always an outsider in the party because of his sex-obsessed
>  antisemitism and his flagrant corruption."
>  
Thanks for the Speer quote, which proves Streicher's impotence and lack of influence.
Concerning the rest of your speculation:>>>>
Why don't you learn to read for a change, Mr. Lewis?


From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep 14 08:50:16 PDT 1996
Article: 65359 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Streicher-PORNOGRAPHER-THE FINAL ROUND & TKO
Date: 14 Sep 1996 08:46:07 GMT
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I would like to thank all the people at Nizkor who responded to 
my Streicher-PORNOGRAPHER post.  Most notably, Ken McVay
 and Chuck Feree, Annie Alpert and Sara Schwartz, Bill Harmon
 and Nele Abels, Mark Van Alstine and Mike Curtis, Gordon McFee
 and Danny Keren, and last but not least, William Anderson.
 Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

When I first placed the post on alt.revisionism, I never expected
 that it would generate the amount of interest which it eventually
 received.  Well done, old bean!  Now, after a careful consideration
 of all the facts and information provided as a result of this thread, I
 would like to offer the following observations:

No direct evidence was ever produced to substantiate the claim that
 Streicher was a purveyor of pornography in a sexual sense, as is
 implied by authors like Shirer and Snyder, et. al.  That certain
individuals considered him to be a "pervert" is not germane to the
 issue.  Gossip is no replacement for fact.  He was never charged
 nor convicted for publishing pornography, though the Weimar repub-
lic certainly had anti-pornography laws.  Consequently, the accusation
 that Streicher was a publisher of pornography must be considered to be libel.

No convincing evidence was ever offered to support the
 Nuremberg Court's imposition of the death penalty for Streicher. 
 The reason given by the Nuremberg Court for imposing the
death penalty was that Streicher had "incited" the people to
 mass murder, and that he was "aware" that Jews were being murdered. 
 However, an examination of both testimony and documents does not sustain
 this charge.  Streicher, as I have pointed out, had no authority
to issue commands to any member of the German Armed Forces,
 was deprived of his office as early as 1940, and subscriptions to 
his newspaper dropped by 300,000 during the war
years.  The postings of the Nizkor people confirm that Streicher
 was spurned by practically ALL of his contemporaries.  Even Goebbels,
 a confirmed anti-Semite, loathed him.  Streicher had no INFLUENCE 
among his peers.  Before the war, Streicher could boast of only 700,000
subscribers in a country of 80,000,000!  Unlike Ilya Ehrenburg, the
 Soviet-Jewish Propagandist who incited the Soviet army to murder
 and rape defenseless German civilians in his countless radio
 broadcasts, Streicher was not allowed to address either the German
 people or the Armed Forces.   His "awareness" of alleged Jewish
 exterminations came from the "reports in the foreign press", and,
 since Streicher considered the foreign press controlled by Jews, he
didn't believe it.  It is curious that other major defendants at Nuremberg
 also head stories of  Jews allegedly being exterminated through the
 foreign press, which prompted a number of them to ask Hitler himself
 whether the rumors were true.  Hitler's answer was always, "No."

Now, the conclusions stated above should not be considered
 an apology for Streicher's opinions.  They are merely statements
 of historical fact.  The opinions reflected in the
Stuermer hardly represented the opinions of the German people,
 regardless of the opinions expressed in Goldhagen's book,
 "The Willing Executioners".  Streicher was a man reviled 
and avoided by his own contemporaries like the plague, which
 brings me to the following:

Inspired and indeed PROVEN by the documentation provided by the
 Nizkor people concerning Streicher, along with 27 pages of documents
 relating to the same man posted on the Nizkor Site a few days after
I posted the original Streicher-PORNOGRAPHER thread- I would like
 to suggest the following:

The documentation clearly proves that Julius Streicher, the old "Jew-baiter",
as he was called, was indeed obsessed with the Jews-even more so than 
his Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler.  Indeed, Hitler rarely mentioned the Jews when 
compared with Streicher.  Aside from Pharaoh and Haman, perhaps the
Jews never had an antagonist as committed as Julius Streicher.  And,
according to most sources, Streicher was considered to be a friend to
the German dictator, who, it is also maintained, read Streicher's Stuermer
faithfully from cover to cover.  

However, there is one thing which this plethora of documentation does NOT
prove, and, I must confess,  has been puzzling me for days:

If it has been proven that Streicher was indeed the most vociferous and radical
opponent of the Jews, and, indeed, the documentation offered by Nizkor over-
whelmingly proves this, as they themselves have pointed out, WHY was Streicher
not appointed to oversee the "extermination" of his hated enemies, the Jews?
Who else could have been more suited for the task than the old Jew-baiter?  
How could his "friend", the Fuehrer, overlook his old and faithful companion,
whose scurrilous newspaper he allegedly read with devotion?  Would not Streicher,
who had been commissioned as an SS Gruppenfuehrer in 1934, have been ideally
suited for the task, instead of the petty thief Globocnik, or the unstable Hoess?
Indeed, the many tales of his sadism and sexual perversions, in which he allegedly
achieved orgasisms while beating people, would confirm his perfect suitablility for
tormenting and eradicating Europe of the Jews.  After all, it is not as if Streicher
had something better to do with his time:  in early 1940, Hitler placed Streicher on a
REDENVERBOT, which means that Streicher was forbidden to make public statements
or give public speeches.  Later that year, Streicher was removed as Gauleiter of Nuremberg.
What strange conduct on the part of the Fuehrer!  The speaking ban was imposed through-
out the whole war.  

I thought it extremely curious when I found out that Streicher
 first learned of the "exterminations" by reading reports in the
 foreign press.  I also find it astounding that this man who had been 
fighting against the Jews for the better part of his life should have
 had NO active part in the so-called "Final Solution";  that he should
 have had NO executive power or authorization whatsoever to
 finally implement the drastic solutions he had been proposing for years.
 That he had, in fact, been kept completely in the dark about it,
 along with many of his contemporaries. Josef
Goebbels, in his diaries, was alleged to have referred to Hitler
 as the "champion of the radical solution", yet WHO among the
 Nazis was more radical in their approach to the Jewish "question"
than Streicher, whose influence was effectively curtailed by his
 peers and approved by Hitler himself as early as 1940?  I find this
 to be very remarkable, especially in a country which
was professedly anti-Semitic.  A curious thing, this Holocaust.








From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep 14 12:32:13 PDT 1996
Article: 65462 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 14 Sep 1996 17:36:05 GMT
Lines: 37
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In message <51agcu$80q@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com13 Sep 1996
02:20:14 GMT writes:
:>
:>>   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
:>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
:>>  : >   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
:>>  
:>>  : >  He wasn't conficted of publishing porno. Clear? Yes or no?
:>>  
:>>  : Now that you have admitted it, it is most clear.  Thank You.
:>>  
:>>  There's nothing it admit.  Nobody ever asserted that Streicher was
:>>  convicted of publishing pornagraphy.  I'm hard pressed to understand
:>>  why you chose to make an issue of this.
:>>  
:>>  Bill
:>>  
:>>>>>
:>I don't know whether you read the original post or not.  I wanted to address this
:>issue and settle it once and for all because I had read it so often in books on
:>the Third Reich.  That was all there was to it.

No, Mr. Blackmore, that is not all there was to it.  You stated that every
author who talked about Streicher called him a pornographer and then added
that they were wrong, because he had not been *convicted* of selling
pornography, a point that was made only by *you*.  Many authors have called
Streicher a pornographer--indeed, the Germans of the day called him a
pornographer.

None of that has any relevance to the Holocaust, as several posters have tried
to tell you.


--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep 14 12:32:15 PDT 1996
Article: 65463 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE CRIME THAT DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME
Date: 14 Sep 1996 17:38:13 GMT
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In message <513j48$9nj@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com10 Sep 1996
11:23:52 GMT writes:
:>

:>This reasoning is unacceptable.  Both called for the annihilation of civilians completely
:>innocent of any crimes.  And on both sides it was indeed the civilians who suffered.  And
:>both of them considered their incitements justified.  They were two peas in a pod.  But
:>in my opinion, Ehrenburg bears the greater guilt, because his messages were sent directly
:>to the people who counted-the bearers of arms.  And it was their fury, prompted and
:>encouraged by Ehrenburg, which resulted in incalculabe loss of innocent life.  On the
:>other hand, Streicher was a virtual outcast within his own community and even among
:>his own peers.  His influence was limited to an impotent group of old anti-Semites who had 
:>probably been subscribing to his rag for years.  In fact, subscriptions to the Stuermer dropped
:>by as much as 300,000 during the war years.  

I think there is a factor about Streicher that should not be ignored. 
Ehrenburg may well have sent the messages to those who perpetrated the crimes.
 But so did Streicher, through the _Stuermer_.  More than that, Streicher
*prepared* the perpetrators to carry out the orders they eventually received
throughout the 1930s when he held significant power.



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep 14 12:32:15 PDT 1996
Article: 65464 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?,2-Mark Van Alstine's Strike 1
Date: 14 Sep 1996 17:38:08 GMT
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In message <513h78$9nj@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com10 Sep 1996
10:51:20 GMT writes:
:>
:>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
  
:>>  For what it is worth, I have already posted that I disagree with Streicher's
:>>  sentence and with those of some others.  I do not however feel they did not
:>>  deserve to be tried and convicted at Nuremberg.  They most certainly did.

:>Thank you for your comments.  I also happen to feel that a trial was in order-but not
:>conducted by the victors over the vanquished.  If the Germans are considered per-
:>fectly capable of trying their "war criminals" today, they were also capable of trying
:>them in 1945.  Or, if not them, then neutral powers.

It seems that one of the facts of life is that the winners win and the losers
lose.  Has it not always been thus?  The victors try the vanquished.  Who else
was supposed to try the vanquished, by the way?  Certainly not the German
government, which ceased to exist at the time of unconditional surrender. 
Germany had basically taken the world on and lost.  Perhaps Sweden or
Switzerland should have conducted the trials?

In any event, the Nazis had been warned as early as 1943 that this kind of
fate awaited them if they lost.  The main point was the extent to which the
trials would be fair.  I may disagree with some of the sentences, but I do not
disagree with the overall fairness--understanding the mood of the moment--that
prevailed.  Defendants had the right to counsel, their counsel had the right
examine witnesses and call witnesses for the defense, they were permitted to
make long statements to the court, and were generally allowed to know and
examine the documentary evidence to be used against them.  NOT in every single
case, but generally.  Given the possible outcomes, the trial was remarkably
fair for the time it was held and by whom it was held.  Remember that
Churchill and others had simply wanted to line them up against the wall and
shoot them.  Remember as well, that out of 22 defendants, 11 were executed. 
Certainly a kangaroo court would have executed the lot (e.g. the Stalin show
trials in the 1930s).



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep 14 14:59:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: 14 Sep 1996 07:06:23 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 26
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>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>  On 13 Sep 1996 21:28:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  >>   rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) writes:
>  >>  In article <50m4a0$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  >>  
>  >>  [snip]
>  >>  
>  >>  > Give me a break.  I don't give a damn aboout the nasty jooos, as you 
>  >>  > put it.  I'm not hung up about the "conspiratorial jooooos, much as you
>  >>  > would like me to be. 
>  >>  
>  >>  [snip]
>  >>  
>  >>  Of course, that's why you made groundless accusations against the Simon
>  >>  Wiesenthal Center.
>  >>  
>  >>>>>
>  >That's a different issue altogether.  And you will receive no reply to your questions
>  >until you conduct yourself in a proper manner.
>  
>  Traslation: I will use any excuse so I don't have to back up my claim.
>  
>  
>>>>
I answer on my terms. Not yours.


From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep 14 18:10:44 PDT 1996
Article: 65572 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer
Date: 14 Sep 1996 17:35:09 GMT
Lines: 69
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References: <511ljm$16fe@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><511ljm$16fe@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <5138c6$6fk@juliana.sprynet.com>
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In message <5138c6$6fk@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com10 Sep 1996
08:20:22 GMT writes:
:>
:>>   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:

[deleted]
  
:>>  BTW, I notice you did not respond to my post about Streicher and the orgasm he
:>>  got after whipping a boy in prison.  Did you see it?

:>>>>>
:>Yes, I did see it, but I did not see the orgasm, nor would I want to.  
:>Different strokes for different folks.  I don't know what this incident
:>has to do with Nuremberg, however.  I am not interested in Streicher's
:>sexual habits. I am only concerned with whether he was charged and
:>convicted in a German court for publishing pornography.  By the way,
:>was the victim above German or Jewish?  If Streicher behaved like a
:>reprobate, it is no wonder that he was kicked out of office.

The post was in reaction to one of yours in which you were joking about what
he did for a good time, if you will think back.  But just to refresh your
memory.

[begin quote]

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
References: <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>
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In message <50h2e2$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com3 Sep 1996
10:48:34 GMT writes:
:>
:>Mark Van Alstine rages:
:>  
:>>  According to _you_, Herr Schwarzmehr. Needless to say your "standard" of
:>>  "proof" is about as twisted as Streicher's idea of a good time.
:>
:>What was his idea of a good time, Herr Van Alstine?  My standard of proof?
:>I asked you to supply evidence direct from Streicher's publications that he was a
:>purveyor of pornography, as the slander goes...Let the reader decide whether my
:>request is twisted or not.... 

One example of Streicher's idea of a good time is the following:

[begin quote]

Streicher had been imprisoned on one occasion for assaulting a boy prisoner
while on an official visit to the cells.  He had arrived with two fellow
sadists who had watched him while he beat the prisoner with a whip.  He then
announced that it gave him an orgasm.

[end quote] [Airey Neave, _Nuremberg_, Coronet Books, 1978, page 91.]

[end quote]





--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep 14 19:15:11 PDT 1996
Article: 65595 of alt.revisionism
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From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 11 Sep 1996 08:13:18 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
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>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  : I won't discuss the activities of the White Rose under a Streicher 
>  : post.  If you want to discuss it elsewhere, repost it.  Besides, the 
>  : activities of the white rose were considered treason during war-time.  
>  : People were and are executed for treason.
>  
>  No, wait--this just became relevant to the Streicher thread.  The 
>  members of the White Rose, Mr. Blackmore, did nothing more than 
>  express their opinion; that opinion was considered treasonous, and
>  they were executed.  In your view, Streicher did nothing more than
>  express his opinion; that opinion was considered an incitement to
>  murder, and he was hanged for it.  If you're going to support one
>  and deplore the other, you're going to have to do it on other than
>  legal grounds.
>  
>  Bill
>  
>>>>
I believe you are stretching things a bit here, Mr. Anderson.  In the first place,
treason against the State is an almost universal offense punishable by law.
If you want to bring the Streicher post in on this, what he wrote wasn't treason.
Also, I would have to question the authority of a tribunal composed exclusively 
by the victors.  Of course, that is not just my opinion.  The Nuremberg Trials
were severely criticized for this very reason.  I do not believe the comparison is
apropos, but I would be willing to discuss this issue in another thread.  By the
way, I am basically opposed to capital punishment in most cases.  In the Scholl
case, most definitely.


From gmcfee@ibm.net Sat Sep 14 20:26:26 PDT 1996
Article: 65629 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mark Van Alstine RAGES
Date: 14 Sep 1996 17:35:29 GMT
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In message <323658e4.5683270@news.zilker.net> - mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis)Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:52:59 GMT writes:
:>
:>On 8 Sep 1996 04:02:47 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
:>anderson) wrote:
:>
:>>Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
:>>
:>>: There are several historians whoi have studied Nuremberg who disagree with
:>>: some of the sentences, Professor Smith being one of them.  The most common
:>>: sentences cited tend to be those meted out to Streicher, Jodl, and Sauckel,
:>>: and the sentence *not* meted out to Speer.
:>>: 
:>>: What make Streicher so difficult was that he was so loathsome and probably
:>>: best represented Hitler's perverted antisemitism among the "big-wigs" still
:>>: alive.  I still feel he was tried as an ersatz Hitler, much as Fritzsche was
:>>: an ersatz Goebbels.  A person who so happily and at great profit exploited
:>>: millions of young children with his disgusting rubbish is nonetheless
:>>: difficult to pity.
:>>: 
:>>: For what it is worth, and with respect to those who see it otherwise, I do not
:>>: feel the death penalty was appropriate in Streicher's case.  I say this
:>>: especially since he had no executive power after 1940.
:>>
:>>I actually agree with Gord here--although it's not the case that
:>>Streicher was executed merely for "expressing his opinion."
:>
:>
:>Exactly. Smith feels that he may have excited people to do the dirty
:>deeds but that he didn't actually participate. This is true. He did
:>have knoweldge it appears of what was done. Knowledge isn't really a
:>crime either, is it? But the judges were revolted by him and his
:>actions during the trial. In the heat of judicial passion he got the
:>death sentence and this is Bradley F. Smith's position. Wrong or right
:>this is what happened. We have to deal with the justice of that
:>sentence with hidsight. Have you noticed that Belling/Blackmore is
:>dealing with injustice rather than with the Holocaust per se?

That is the point.  I have said to Belling/Blackmore several times now that I
wonder how the injustice or otherwise of what happened to any or all of the
Nuremberg defendants has the slightest thing to do with the historicity of the
Holocaust.  Answer from him?  Nada.  The deniers will sometimes play the game
that if any fact about this stuff is wrong, the whole thing is wrong.  Thus,
they would attampt to argue that if Streicher was executed fir having been a
pornographer, then the Holocaust didn't happen.  Of course, Streicher was not
executed for being a pornographer.



--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From rblackmore@juno.com Sat Sep 14 20:26:29 PDT 1996
Article: 65646 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: 11 Sep 1996 08:14:56 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <515se0$6v2@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: 
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: dd39-131.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <513elm$9nj@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  [snip]
>  
>  > Where are the court records proving that Streicher was tried and convicted of
>  > publishing pornography?  All the rest of your comments are balderdash and 
>  > double-talk.
>  
>  Herr Schwarzesel, it has never been my contention that the Nazi pervert
>  Streicher was convicted and executed for publishing pornography. He was
>  convicted and executed for crimes against hunanity. 
>  
>  I know it's a difficult topic for mentally challenged Nazi apologists,
>  such as yourself, Herr Schwarzesel, but do try and keep up with the
>  program. 
>  
>  
>  Mark
>  
What are crimes against hunanity, Mark?  Crimes against the people of Hunan?
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

>>>>



From rblackmore@juno.com Sun Sep 15 09:26:11 PDT 1996
Article: 65675 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde.nde.swri.edu!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news
From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 14 Sep 1996 07:12:55 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <51dltn$n9q@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <323a1650.1231308@news.awinc.com>
Reply-To: rblackmore@juno.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: hd30-211.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>  On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:17:54 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>  
>  
>  #But his SENTENCE (the decision of the Court) and his being a PORNOGRAPHER
>  #(publishing pornography) are TWO SEPERATE THINGS. 
>  # 
>  #LET ME TRY IN AGAIN IN LITTLE WORDS:
>  # 
>  #STREICHER WAS ***NOT*** SENTENCED FOR BEING A PORNOGRAPHER. HE WAS
>  #SENTENCED FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
>  #
>  #Sara
>  
>  
>  You are wasting your time, Sara. This one just keeps trolling. He knows it
>  wasn't about  Streicher being a pornographer, he just wishes to make it that
>  way. A denier red herring. He also wishes to offer up his own definition of
>  porography regardless of the fact that for its time Streicher's material was
>  pornographic.
>  
>  "Julius Streicher, the Gauleiter of Nuremberg and one of Hitler's oldest
>  companions, was always an outsider in the party because of his sex-obsessed
>  antisemitism and his flagrant corruption."
>  
>  				Albert Speer
>  				October 13, 1946
>  
>  
>  
>>>>
Why don't you learn to read for a change, Mr. Lewis?


From klewis@awinc.com Sun Sep 15 09:26:13 PDT 1996
Article: 65689 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news
From: klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 04:55:56 GMT
Organization: Electric Zen
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <323b7c03.33574828@news.awinc.com>
References: <3239dd0f.25016637@news.spry.com> <51dlhf$n9q@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pme526.abc.awinc.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/16.182

On 14 Sep 1996 07:06:23 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

#>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
#>  On 13 Sep 1996 21:28:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
#>  
#>  >>   rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) writes:
#>  >>  In article <50m4a0$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com
wrote:
#>  >>  
#>  >>  [snip]
#>  >>  
#>  >>  > Give me a break.  I don't give a damn aboout the nasty jooos, as
you 
#>  >>  > put it.  I'm not hung up about the "conspiratorial jooooos, much
as you
#>  >>  > would like me to be. 
#>  >>  
#>  >>  [snip]
#>  >>  
#>  >>  Of course, that's why you made groundless accusations against the
Simon
#>  >>  Wiesenthal Center.
#>  >>  
#>  >>>>>
#>  >That's a different issue altogether.  And you will receive no reply to
your questions
#>  >until you conduct yourself in a proper manner.
#>  
#>  Traslation: I will use any excuse so I don't have to back up my claim.
#>  
#>  
#>>>>
#I answer on my terms. Not yours.

Translation. I won't answer.




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