The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/stein.michael/1996/stein.0896


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug  1 06:11:00 PDT 1996
Article: 54707 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 31 Jul 1996 12:14:33 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4to0p9$af9@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 30 Jul 1996 21:26:17 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>The rivers meander (are snaking) in the area indicating a very slow current.
>>>Ashes would not be washed away.  The would have sunk to the bottom and still
>>>be there.  
>
>>    Another unsupported assertion from a confessed liar who has made many
>>provable errors.
>
>	May I suggest you look at a map of the area?  

    A map proves that the current is so slow that the ashes MUST sink to
the bottom and stay there?  What of normal runoff from erosion?  Would the
river not be completely blocked with that by now? 

    A map proves the ashes would not have decomposed?

    What a silly person you are.

    Also a confessed liar.  Do not forget that.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Aug  1 06:11:01 PDT 1996
Article: 54741 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: 31 Jul 1996 23:29:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4tp8af$7k0@access1.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4t94qr$mok@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>Perhaps when there a translation of the complete document available there will
>be something to ignore.  But as you were concealing the other document which
>said wood pulp

    The NI document is obviously from the same source; while it was
published by the health protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, you can see
the similarities.  You have yet to give a date for your document.  If it
is from a different time period it cannot be assumed to be relevant.

>while claiming it supported you there is nothing we can take
>upon your word for the contents at this point.  

    And since you are a confessed liar, we can take your word for nothing.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug  1 06:11:02 PDT 1996
Article: 54785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another class action lawsuit
Date: 31 Jul 1996 15:31:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4tocai$mft@access5.digex.net>
References: <4svgko$ma9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2uk8$svp@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t5kd5$bg8@access5.digex.net> <4tk573$1q7i@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tk573$1q7i@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>,
M Huber  wrote:
>>
>>    This statement is libelous.  You will be hearing from the attorneys
>>for Butthead and the slugs shortly.
>>
>>    Posted/emailed.
>>-- 
>>Mike Stein	
>
>Note the false j*w name STEIN.

    How on earth did you know that my grandfather skipped out of WWI using
a forged passport with the false name of Stein?


>SUE Sue sue.

    No, he was _not_ a boy named Sue.  His name was Leo.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:50 PDT 1996
Article: 54831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!news5.digex.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: 31 Jul 1996 23:38:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4tp8ru$7ug@access1.digex.net>
References: <31f614a6.1448866@news.pacificnet.net> <4tcs0j$l5n@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <31fa164d.938668@news.pacificnet.net> <4ti5f0$l3l@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4ti5f0$l3l@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
confessed liar Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:14:55 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>	Oh, I see your having the same problem with Keren over here as to
>>these referred to reports, patents and manuals that he keeps alluding
>>to without actually posting the stuff itself.
>
>Having a problem is hardly the word for it.  He keeps making it up as he goes
>along.

    Prove it, confessed liar.

    Would you like to discuss all the times you have done this?  How about
the claim that the Brack letter was an NKVD forgery?

>He makes it up as he goes along and then claims it is gospel.  It is
>rather tiring not to mention boring.  

    Another lie from the confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

    What is the difference between you and Rudy Vrba, confessed liar?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:51 PDT 1996
Article: 54840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!news5.digex.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: 31 Jul 1996 23:34:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4tp8k2$7qa@access1.digex.net>
References: <31f614a6.1448866@news.pacificnet.net> <4t94qr$mok@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4tcs0j$l5n@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4tcs0j$l5n@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Jul 1996 17:50:08 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>># It is good see physical law was different in those years.
>
>>They were not different. But different carriers release the
>>HCN at different speeds. The speed also depends on the
>>thickness of the carrier.
>
>	Quite correct and the vermin type with the wood pulp carrier is as stated.
>You numbers have proven that already.  
>
>># Perhaps when there a translation of the complete document 
>># available there will be something to ignore.  
>
>>The relevant part was translated. It states that after an 
>>hour, or at most two, there was no detectable residue of HCN 
>>in the carrier, and this at very low temperatures.
>
>That is what you folks said when you claimed the Degesh Publication supported
>your position.  And then I posted it.  And it turned out it contradicted your
>position.  

    How so?  The only issue was on ERCO, not outgassing time.  The
document gives ventilation times - but for ordinary buildings, not
someplace with powered ventilation.  And you have not given a date for
your document, so it is not clear if it applies to the period during the
war. The Bohemia and Moravia version is clearly from the same source. 


>	You lied then.  

   Prove it.

   You, of course, have lied many times and even admitted it once.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


>You have no credibility until the entire document is posted in
>English.  

    You have no credibility period, confessed liar.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:52 PDT 1996
Article: 54853 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 1 Aug 1996 11:22:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4tqi34$1p2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tn807$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4to1j1$b5o@access5.digex.net> <4tpkpm$2q2@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tpkpm$2q2@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 31 Jul 1996 12:28:17 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4tn807$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:18:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>>>
>>>>Trya  again, Matt. If the PARTIALLY-BURNT remains of the last firing of
>>>>a Krema were not disturbed, it would be easy to distinguish the hair.
>>>
>>>>Years ago, when I smoked a pipe and used an unusual tobacco blend, some
>>>>of the folks at the club decided to stick a clump of hair into my
>>>>tobacco. 
>>>
>>>>It stank, of course, but when I knocked the ashes out of my pipe, the
>>>>hair was clearly recognizable.
>>>
>>>This is fansinating.  The MOST flammable part of the human body remains after
>>>the rest of the body is partially burned.
>
>>    Suppose the body were at the periphery of the pyre, head out.
>
>Then the rarity of the find, in combination with the common findings would
>tend to support the case but only AFTER major excavations.

    If this garbled text means what I think it means, this is just
handwaving by a confessed liar. 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


>But note that Alec is leaving you hanging on this one as he knows better. 

    And check the dates on the articles.  Alec may very well not even have
seen your reply yet.  You know that - yet you claim his lack of response
means he's leaving me hanging! 

    Clearly you are getting desperate.  You're losing it, Matt. 

    Give it up, child.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:52 PDT 1996
Article: 54892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: 1 Aug 1996 11:01:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <4tqgsv$10g@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tpk83$2q2@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 31 Jul 1996 09:54:49 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4t6a7k$3r8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 23 Jul 96 12:02:28, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>>>
>>>><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>>>><+[No historian has ever] [Tue 23 Jul 96 05:38][Tue 23 Jul 96 10:47][0]*>
>>>
>>>
>>>> mnc>     Not one person ever found with radiation damage to the
>>>> mnc> reproductive organs.
>>>
>>>> mnc>     What a piece of shit this holocaust is.
>>>
>>>>Not one person ever cured of Smallpox by leeches.
>>>
>>>>Pull your fingers from your ears, Matt.
>>>
>>>It is one more example of the complete lack of physical evidence for this 
>>>mass extermination.  
>
>>    No, it is one more example of Matt Giwer lying.  The letter itself is
>>physical evidence.  You can touch it.  And physical evidence has been
>>presented before.  Matt Giwer merely denies that it is evidence.
>
>>    There is physical evidence of cyanide use in the Kremas, and physical
>>evidence of lots of dead Jews.  Matt Giwer simply denies that there is
>>physical evidence _unequivocally_ linking the gas with the deaths, only
>>eyewitness testimony.  He says the morgues could have been fumigated for
>>lice, maggots, and rats.  But has he produced a dead louse, maggot, or rat
>>as physical evidence?  No.  Why should it be necessary to fumigate for
>>rats at all?  Why not just keep the gas-tight door closed and put grilles
>>over the drains?  Are the rats going to nibble through concrete? 
>
>You must be straining your won credulity to post this one.  Morgues are
>morgues.  They attract vermin.  They are fumigated.

    Handwaving.

    You have not produced a dead rat, louse or maggot.  You have no
physical evidence and you know it.  Your rules, remember?

    Furthermore you have not addressed the issue of _this_ morgue, which
could have been controlled for rats at least with far simpler methods.

    Your attempt to change the subject is noted.


>There are NO unexplained deaths unless you assume there were people who were
>not registered as entering.  Every person who was entered into the register
>has a recorded fate until the Russians showed up.

    So?


>You have to assume that people were sent there without any record any place
>and then were gassed so that they disappeared.

    We know they were sent there without any record at Auschwitz.  But ...

>And then of course we have the 31 million untraceable people as a result of
>that war and it is still completely unclear as to why or even how 10 of those
>31 million can be assigned to extermination campaigns without even a
>significant fraction of those being documented.  
>
>About 1/3 of the untraceable are arbitrarily assigned to extermination
>based upon nothing but "estimates" which are also without basis save
>samplings of, "I can't find them where they were."  

    Railroad records, Matt.  Railroad records.  Thanks for playing, please
try again.  Get back to me when you learn something.  We keep telling you
that you need to get off your fat ass and into the library, but you seem
to think you know everything worth knowing already.  You don't even know
how to read correctly.  Have you _finally_ managed to figure out which
buildings have which features?  You've made a complete hash of it so far,
and the text is not that hard to understand for anyone reading at the high
school level.

    Oops, I almost forgot:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:53 PDT 1996
Article: 54894 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!izzy.net!aanews.merit.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 1 Aug 1996 11:49:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <4tqjll$2of@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4tcq18$hi7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4tin1e$b24@access5.digex.net> <4tm1ok$1p7@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tm1ok$1p7@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 29 Jul 1996 11:57:34 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4tcq18$hi7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 26 Jul 1996 18:49:14 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>>>wrote:
>>>>    However, let's just cut this short.  You say Peer is a Holocaust
>>>>survivor and a liar or fantasist, so no eyewitness can be trusted.  Many
>>>>documents came from Soviet sources and the Soviets were known to forge
>>>>documents, so all documents are forged.
>>>
>>>	And of course Peer is no different from the rest of the "survivors" 
>>>who testify to such things.  So what?
>
>>    What are you saying here?  Every survivor is fantasizing?  Without
>>exception?  What about the SS?
>
>This is merely one of the more extreme examples of it.  It does not rank in
>the impossible category of burning bodies without fuel.

    You did not answer the questions, Matt.

    Your evasion is noted.

    Answer the questions, child.

    Do you claim every survivor is fantasizing?

    Do you claim every SS man was fantasizing?


>>>>    Greg Raven denies gassing and he has told proven lies.  Mark Weber
>>>>denies gassing and has told proven lies by omission at least.  The Lachout
>>>>Document is a forgery.  Therefore all revisionists must be considered
>>>>liars and all revisionist evidence forgeries.
>>>	
>>>	I don't know of Raven other than his site.  
>
>>    Irrelevant.  
>
>As is bringing him into the conversation.  I don't speak for him and he does
>not speak for me.

    Your text is on his site.  By your own rules, that makes you
responsible for everything on it.


>>>>    Works for me.
>>>
>>>	Your problem.  
>
>>    If all Holocaust witnesses are liars because one is, then all
>>revisionists are liars because one is.  Your rule.  Your problem.
>
>	You keep saying holocaust.  We are only talking about gassing here.

    Fine.  Change "Holocaust witnesses" to "gassing witnesses."  Now
address the point you have evaded.


>>>>    When presented with a revisionist argument you don't like, you say, "I
>>>>speak for myself."  But you do not allow that same right to the witnesses. 
>>>>Any witness you cannot refute, you simply call up Peer and pretend that
>>>>Peer invalidates the testimony of the other witness, that the other
>>>>witness must speak for both himself and Peer.  Why can I not call up Raven
>>>>and use him to invalidate you?  Your hypocrisy is in full bloom. 
>>>
>>>Peer is one of about two dozen I have cited in the last few months and I have
>>>yet to find one "witness" who recounts ZB in accordance with its physical
>>>properties, much less in relation to CO which only makes matters worse.  
>
>>    You have yet to show that you even understand the testimonies, let
>>alone that there is an inconsistency.
>
>	Then apparently you have not been reading what I have posted.  

    I have.  How else would I know you are an illiterate who does not know
what buildings have what features, or that "after a few minutes there was
silence" does not mean that the screaming went on for "tens of minutes?"

    And how else would I know that you are an admitted liar just like Rudy
Vrba whose confession you posted?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:54 PDT 1996
Article: 54896 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 1 Aug 1996 11:43:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <4tqjao$2i8@access5.digex.net>
References: <5c9_9607251736@tor250.org> <4tcqi0$ja7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4d1_9607292355@tor250.org> <4tpll0$t65@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tpll0$t65@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 28 Jul 96 11:23:14, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>><+[auschwitz:myths and facts] [Sat 27 Jul 96 06:20][Sun 28 Jul 96 01:45][0]*>
>
>
>> >> Yes, it was.  "Schaedlingsbekaempfung."  What do you think
>> >> that means?
>
>> mnc>     Since you are playing the same old translation game, I have
>> mnc> no interest.

    I guess you managed to miss all the posts that translated it for you.
Pest control (lit: pest fighting).  Going to miss this one too?


>>Do you really like losing all of your arguments, Matt?
>
>It is not a matter of losing or winning.  It is a matter of the eye of the
>beholder.  
>
>	We have two polarized camps on this NG.  
>
>	It is all being stated for the lurkers.  
>
>	And of course committed lurkers are not the intended audience.  
>
>	You folks constantly make the mistake of posting for the committed 
>lurker.

    And you do not?


>That is a total waste of time.  The objective is to be reasonable.

    Then why are you so unreasonable?  The ERCO form of Zyklon existed. 
Documentation has been posted to prove it.  Your posting of an undated pub
which does not mention ERCO does not refute the existence of ERCO.  Do you
understand yet why the date of your pub is significant? 


>Present a
>case simply and without "you're losing it" being the only response as that
>only appeals to the committed lurker.  

    Documented evidence has been presented.  Take the Brack letter,
hand-signed, on Brack's personal stationery, corroborated by other
letters, admitted to by Brack himself at his trial.

    And your "NKVD forgery" response, with no support other than your
Because!  I!  Say!  So!, appeals to more than the committed lurkers?

    If you think so, maybe you should be committed.

    And the lurkers all know you are a confessed liar.  So what do you
think you are accomplishing here?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

    Give it up, child.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:24 PDT 1996
Article: 54910 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 1 Aug 1996 11:16:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4tqhnv$1ge@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tn84t$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4to0ft$a6l@access5.digex.net> <4tpkts$2q2@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tpkts$2q2@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 31 Jul 1996 12:09:33 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4tn84t$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:56:15 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>>>>GIWERISM ALERT!!
>>>
>>>>Sorry Matt - you blew it again and coverups or zig zags are not allowed.
>>>
>>>>The gas chambers were heated by the equivalent of a few hundred
>>>>incandescent light bulbs - known as human beings.
>>>
>>>As an engineer you know better than that regarding the introduction of Polish
>>>winter air.  
>
>>    Please describe how this air was introduced into the underground
>>chamber, when, in what amount, and at what step during the process.
>>Supply documentation.
>
>>    The unsupported assertion of an admitted liar like yourself
>>contributes nothing to the discussion. 
>
>    Alec is leaving you hanging again.

    Really?  I don't think it's my neck in the noose here with a boatload
of unsupported assertions and handwaving.

    Mr. Physicist, how does that Polish winter air completely displace the
air which is currently in the underground chamber while the people are
going in?  Some exchange will occur, but how much?  No handwaving allowed. 


>You are usefull to him.  Keep it up.  

    Gladly, confessed liar.  He is also useful to me.

    But your complete inability to answer the question is noted.  Did you
think you could distract from that fact so easily?  Sorry about that.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:25 PDT 1996
Article: 54939 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!blanket.mitre.org!news.tufts.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:26:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>   <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:32:06 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>> But not from 6 million. Even in the established historiography you can read
>>that the ashes from alleged corpses were poured out in nearby rivers and 
>>thus washed away with the current.
>
>The rivers meander (are snaking) in the area indicating a very slow current.
>Ashes would not be washed away.  The would have sunk to the bottom and still
>be there.  

    Another unsupported assertion from a confessed liar who has made many
provable errors.

    Why should the unsupported word of such a person be given any
credence?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:25 PDT 1996
Article: 54954 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 31 Jul 1996 11:56:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4tnvn9$9ii@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tkdof$ife@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31FE1AD7.218D@gryn.org> <4tn6mq$6q1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tn6mq$6q1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:23:19 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>>  You folks really are stupid,  Is this something racial?  
>>>  I ask a question.
>
>
>>Have you murdered any little children today? Hey, that's a question! I
>>don't have to prove it, right?
>
>>> You say I should prove a claim.
>
>>Not to the question here, Matt.
>
>>Jeez! It's obvious enough!
>
>>> >This is common knowledge.  I provide nothing that Mr. Giwer asks for.
>>> >Perhaps, if Mr. Giwer ever decides to provide a single, solitary
>>> >shred of proof to support any of his many dubious claims, I will
>>> >consider providing him with some proof that he asks for.
>
>>See the words "DUBIOUS CLAIMS".
>
>>Prove all of your contentions first, Matt!
>
>>You have never provided legitimate evidence for the Dresden fire-bombing
>>nonsense. Remember the rules, Matt.
>
>	Nor do I have to note that your blood sugar swings cause great 
>changes in mood and lucidity.  
>
>	What to drop this line?  

    How does Alec's blood sugar change the fact that you have failed to
demonstrate the firebombing of Dresden on physical evidence alone, as you
had claimed you could do?

    Alec's posts, while occasionally cryptic, have been uniformly lucid. 
Not so yours. 

    The point is that you have consistently failed to provide support for
your claims - something especially critical since you are now an admitted
liar just like the same Rudy Vrba you used to try to discredit all
Holocaust witnesses.  Yet you keep demanding that everyone else supply
the kind of documentation you supply seldom if ever.  The point is you are
a hypocrite, a liar, and a troll with no interest in the truth.

    Alec's blood sugar cannot change that.  Only you can change that.

    I note that many have speculated whether the marked changes in your
own lucidity have some relationship to swings in your blood alcohol
level.  Want to drop this line?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:26 PDT 1996
Article: 54960 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tell it to Teuffel Piet, l'il tommy
Date: 31 Jul 1996 23:50:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4tp9h9$8bo@access1.digex.net>
References: <31fb7628.820469@news.pacificnet.net> <4tjju4$rhv@news.enter.net> <31fe1d68.418583@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <31fe1d68.418583@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>	When Moran calls someone a coward and a liar, he presents the
>evidence.  Poor Mr.Edeiken. Too bad he can't do the same.

    I think he's still waiting for you to pick a judge, little Tommy
coward.  How can a prosecutor present evidence without a judge?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:27 PDT 1996
Article: 55120 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: I'm taking a short powder as well
Date: 31 Jul 1996 08:48:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4tnkm5$r3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tmaik$d63@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tmaik$d63@Networking.Stanford.EDU>,
Rich Graves  wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>What Alexander Baron said. Lotsa work to do the next three weeks.
>
>- -rich

    I'm headed out of town tomorrow for a business meeting with a number
of people who have more than a casual interest in beer.  I'll be gone a
few days and may or may not have access.

    According to Matt Giwer's rules of reasoning, since beer is the only
thing I mentioned, beer is the main or even only purpose of the trip and
we are probably planning to start a brewry. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:28 PDT 1996
Article: 55140 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Revisionism-Zyklon's Warning Compound
Date: 31 Jul 1996 08:54:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4tnl1t$14p@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tktfh$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tktfh$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:

>The additive in Zyklon which gave off a preliminary scent was removed by
>Degesch in 1940, before the so-called extermination program ever got
>under way, and it had nothing to do with killing Jews.  How do I know
>that? 

    The scent had nothing to do with killing Jews; it was highly
unpleasant but not toxic.  You are correct. 

    But if it was removed in 1940, would you please explain why Hoess
wrote in a memo in August, 1942, that the Zyklon currently in use had
_less_ (not _no_, but _less_) warning odor than before?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:33 PDT 1996
Article: 55313 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: 25 Jul 1996 12:26:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4t8776$q5g@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t6lbi$93t@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4t72af$saa@news.enter.net> <4t7aon$6cd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t7aon$6cd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Jul 1996 05:56:31 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>This 
>>statement is a clear admission of defamation even under the standards of NYT 
>>v. Sullivan.  And, of course, you used what you knew to be a false charge in an 
>>attempt to intimidate someone.
>
>	Really?  Is there anyone who would hire you after this post?

    You should be more worried about whether anyone would hire you.  You
say you do not need a job now.  But do you have psychic powers that you
know what the future will bring?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:35 PDT 1996
Article: 55390 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. keren also ignores this aspect
Date: 4 Aug 1996 14:58:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4u2rrv$6a3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tv62p$15j@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tv62p$15j@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:

>This in itself (The cyanide on the grids) is of little significance,
>because all the bunkers were continuously disinfested with Zyklon
>B-especially the morgue and autopsy sections.

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!


>The grids exposure to the
>cyanide does not imply any sinister connotations. 

    Let's see: the fact that there are fewer cyanide traces than in the
delousing chambers is supposedly proof there was no gassing.  But the
cyanide traces that are there are not significant because the morgues were
"continuously disinfested with Zyklon B."

    Yes, denier logic at its finest!
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:27:57 PDT 1996
Article: 55558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The missing millions found
Date: 6 Aug 1996 00:38:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4u6i8l$rj0@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tvbuv$15j@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tvbuv$15j@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>The missing millions have now been converted into cash [...]

    So THAT'S what Goebbels meant when he said the Jews unable to work
would have to be liquidated!

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:27:58 PDT 1996
Article: 55559 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Extermination or Sterilization
Date: 6 Aug 1996 00:51:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4u6j01$s31@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tuv3d$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com> <4u2kkc$256@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u2kkc$256@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article <4tuv3d$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>
>>
>>So which is it, or which was it, sterilization or extermination, or
>>extermination through sterilization?
>>
>>
>>
>The main advocate of sterilization was Dr. Brack.  Could it be that the
>Brack Method referred to _that_?

    If you are referring to the letter from Wetzel to Lohse mentioning the
"Brack device," that is simply not a tenable reading of the letter.  It
refers to gassing, it refers to a chemist (Dr. Kallmayer), and it refers
to Jews who cannot work being _eliminated_ through its use.  No way could
it refer to X-ray sterilization.

    I guess you're stuck with crying "Soviet forgery!" for this one as
well.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:27:59 PDT 1996
Article: 55564 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Here's a novel idea
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 6 Aug 1996 01:35:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4u6lij$qf@access5.digex.net>
References:   <31FFDC56.2D6E@rio.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2352 alt.revisionism:55564 alt.conspiracy:75092 alt.politics.white-power:38311 soc.culture.jewish:66672 talk.politics.guns:295143 talk.politics.libertarian:108625 talk.abortion:180314 alt.christnet:88950

In article , Ray Fischer  wrote:
>Chuck Ferree   wrote:
>
>>Ray,
>>What exactly is your agenda? Are you a true denier of the Holocaust? 
>>Are you just another anti-Semite? Are you really interest in the 
>>truth, or do you just like to take good people on and call them names? 
>
>Ah yes, the inevitable appearing of the thought-police, here to make
>sure that I accept, preferably without question, the existance of the
>holocaust as described by the Keepers of the Real Truth.

    Since you questioned someone else's motives, it is only fair to
question yours.  Your evasion is noted.


>Piss off.

    Why don't you do something really unique?  State your theory of what
happened in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and occupied Russia
during WWII.  Cite relevant evidence to support your position.  Deal with
evidence which does not support your theory.  Explain why your theory is
superior to other theories of the available evidence. 

    I know that's a lot harder than name-calling, but why not give it a
try?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:27:59 PDT 1996
Article: 55671 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Roman Empire hoax exposed
Date: 6 Aug 1996 15:40:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4u8736$rie@access5.digex.net>
References: <32057386.18750351@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32057386.18750351@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>				
>	             The Roman Empire was.
>How do we know?  From Rome to Western Europe, to Eastern Europe, to
>Africa, the Mideast, all around the Mediterranean, thousands of miles
>of roadways,

    Are you saying I-95 and I-80 are evidence of the Roman empire?  How do
you know who built those roads?


>hundreds of miles of aqueducts, 

    How do you know who built those aqueducts?

>hundreds of sculptures,

    How do you know they aren't Greek sculptures?

    Do the paintings during the Renaissance prove the existence of a
Renaissance Empire?  Nope.


>murals, scores of amphitheaters, arches, law, innovations

    So Tom Edison proves the Roman empire, does he?


>and a extensive written record. Tangibles.

    Prove the written record wasn't an Ostrogoth forgery.



>                  The Holocaust was.
>How do we know? Eye-witness testimony, special interpretation of
>documents. 


    How much special interpretation is needed for "gassing cellar?"
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:00 PDT 1996
Article: 55680 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Matt Giwer lies again
Date: 6 Aug 1996 16:02:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4u88dd$mbp@access5.digex.net>
References: <32057386.18750351@news.pacificnet.net> <4u754r$50b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u754r$50b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:07:41 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>				
>
>>                  The Holocaust was.
>>How do we know? Eye-witness testimony, special interpretation of
>>documents. 
>
>
>	But holohugging attorneys swear the latter is as good as and no
>different than the former.

    Please produce a quote with date, message ID, subject, and author (or
DejaNews URL) to back up this lie. Of course you cannot. 


>They all swear on a stack of Torahs that
>testimony is equal to physical evidence.  Not only equal, the same as.
    
    Another pair of lies.

    The original discussion (many months ago) was whether testimony was
evidence AT ALL.  Mr. Giwer pretended that only physical evidence was
evidence.  However, that is not true.  Neither by court procedure nor by
dictionary definition is testimony outside the boundaries of evidence. 

1. ev.i.dence \'ev-*d-in(t)s, -*-.den(t)s\ n 1a: an outward sign : 
   INDICATION 1b: something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY; specif : 
   something legally submitted to tribunal to ascertain the truth of a
   matter 
   2: one who bears witness; esp : one who voluntarily confesses a crime
   and 
   testifies for the prosecution against his accomplices : to be seen : 
   CONSPICUOUS - in evidence 

    Nobody said they were the same, no more than saying that jazz is music
and classical music is music is equivalent to saying that jazz is the same
as classical.  But of course that is exactly what Matt is claiming here.


>	There is no question that they are wrong.  The only question is
>whether or not they are knowingly lying.  I presume they are,
>including the attorneys, as it is difficult to imagine even a six year
>old not being able to tell the difference.  
>

    There is no question that Matt Giwer is wrong about what was said
before about evidence.  The only question is whether or not he is
knowingly lying.  I presume he is, as he has previously confessed to
telling a wilful lie:


http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:01 PDT 1996
Article: 55717 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: not in Christ, and Jay's the bigot
Followup-To: alt.usage.english
Date: 6 Aug 1996 23:16:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4u91pu$rsb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s9otl$1pt@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <32000A91.4231@mail.gte.net> <4tor39$9h7@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <320128D0.4012@mail.gte.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:55717 alt.christnet:89273 alt.religion.christian:109847 alt.bible.prophecy:3326 alt.usage.english:54384

In article <320128D0.4012@mail.gte.net>, bud   wrote:
>Jay McCullough wrote:
>> 
>> >I think we can solve all your problems
>> with the (mis???) usage of the word anti-semite Bud.
>> How about we just settle for bigot?

[snip]

>> 3 (pay special attention here Bud) one who is odiously hostile
>> to people of a different race religion etc.
>> 
>> usage- Bud is a bigot.
>
>definition of bigot from Webster's:  (which one are you using, Jay?)
>big-ot (big'uht)  n. 
>                  1.  a person who is extremely intolerant of 
>                       another's creed, belief, or opinion.
>             [1590-1600; < MF (OF: derogatory name applied by 
>             the French to the Normans), perh. < OE bi God by 
>             God]

    I'm not sure I'd sign on to Jay's choice of #3, but how about this
one: 

big.ot \'big-*t\ n [MF, hypocrite, bigot] : one obstinately or
intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion
 

    You are obstinately devoted to your belief or opinion that
"antisemite" does not mean what the dictionary clearly says it means.

    You are therefore a bigot.

    Note followups.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:02 PDT 1996
Article: 55747 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: promises of things to come
Date: 6 Aug 1996 22:39:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4u8vli$qm3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u75ab$50b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u75ab$50b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:

[snip]

>The 
>problem is that every person recorded to have been sent to a camp 
>is accounted for to the limits of record keeping errors.

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!

    Why should anyone believe the unsupported assertion of a confessed
liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


>One of the more difficult things 
>to deal with regarding the holocaust is the use of gas for mass 
>extermination.  Part of the reason for this is that the details 
>about these gassings are known.  Another part of the reason is 
>that the eyewitness reports do not appear to describe the gases 
>they claim were used.

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!

    Why should anyone believe the unsupported assertion of a confessed
liar?



>If they disappeared into the 
>camps, there should certainly have been a search for forensic 
>evidence.  Ignoring that, there would certainly have been a 
>search for the remains so a few stars and crosses and appropriate 
>words could be said in the right places.  That is the human thing 
>to do and always has been.


>No such thing has ever been done.

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!

    Of course, such things _have_ been done.  Mr. Giwer has been presented
with, for example, the core sampling conducted by Hydrokop at Auschwitz.
The Poles checked the Treblinka gravesite and confirmed that there were
human remains there.

    But he is very big on claiming that something does not exist, or has
not been done, even when only a modest search will reveal the falsity of
his claim.  Recently he claimed that not one victim of the Nazi X-ray
sterilization experiments had been found, when the record of Brack's trial
(conducted by the Americans, it should be noted) reveals that one had
testified! 

    This is, of course, because Mr. Giwer is a confessed liar with
absolutely no interest in the truth.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:02 PDT 1996
Article: 55749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!chi-news.cic.net!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: 6 Aug 1996 15:10:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <4u85as$pk6@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3205f862.173892@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3205f862.173892@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>     What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination 
>>by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the 
>>Russians.  It is also interesting that at no time did the 
>>Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing 
>>much less mass gassing.  It is even more interesting that at no 
>>time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the 
>>number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing.  
>
>	Giwer, don't you think it would have been easier to just say, 'No
>one, ever, produced any kind of forensic evidence to verify the
>Holocaust story'.  

    Lies are always easy to say, little Tommy.  You should know that.

    Giwer has always told this lie.  We had quite a fun time with the
Brack letter to Himmler about sterilization by X-ray.  Matt said there was
no physical evidence, and that not one victim of the experiments had been
found.  He called the letter an NKVD forgery.

    First, the letter itself is physical evidence.  Second, it was on
Brack's personal stationery with a handwritten signature, and Brack
himself accepted it as genuine at his trial - which was conducted by the
Americans, not the Russians.  Third, a male victim of the experiments
testified at Brack's trial - as can be seen in volume II of the Green
Series, page 279.  In other words, every single thing he said about the
evidence was false.  Either he deliberately lied, or he made claims with
reckless disregard for the truth of what he was saying.  Either way, he is
a completely dishonest person.

    Matt even admitted that he is a liar - see

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


    There are cyanide traces in the Kremas, little Tommy.  That is
physical evidence.  There is a letter talking about a "gassing cellar." 
That is physical evidence.  There is a letter talking about gas vans, sent
to Walter Rauff.  Rauff confirmed receiving such a letter in a deposition
he gave in Chile, so you cannot just yell "Russian forgery!" - Rauff was
not even on trial, so the Staeglich excuse does not hold here either.  The
letter, confirmed by the recipient, is physical evidence.  There is a
photo of a mass grave at Treblinka, taken (if I remember correctly) by
Kurt Franz. 

    You may want more, but the bodies were burned so there can be no
autopsy.  (Even if buried, I suspect that so much time has passed that it
would be impossible to determine if cyanide or carbon monoxide were the
cause of death - though shooting might still be detectable.)

    All by itself, of course, some of the physical evidence is ambiguous -
e.g., the cyanide traces.  But when taken in combination with the
documents, and the witnesses, the _convergence_ of evidence is there.

    There is physical evidence, little Tommy.  You're lying when you say
there is not. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:03 PDT 1996
Article: 55751 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!news5.digex.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Worst of Tom Moran
Date: 6 Aug 1996 23:40:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4u937k$sek@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

Can't send article to the server:
        441 400 No space left on device writing article file -- throttling
(Article not posted.)

    And I could have sworn that I started with at least 100MB free
space.... 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:04 PDT 1996
Article: 55753 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bathing Installations for Special Action
Date: 6 Aug 1996 22:56:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4u90kg$ram@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tuuth$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tuuth$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>Didn't someone once explain this to mean "Bathing Installations for 
>Special Actions (i.e.Delousing)?

    If they did, unfortunately they somehow neglected to explain why
delousing is referred to as a "Special Action."  Would you like to take a
crack at it?  I thought not.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:04 PDT 1996
Article: 55754 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's BELZEC
Date: 6 Aug 1996 22:51:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4u90am$r37@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tv6c2$15j@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tv6c2$15j@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>Never mind BELZEC--what about WOLZEK?  

    Take a look at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/wolzek.01

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:05 PDT 1996
Article: 55777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: 7 Aug 1996 10:55:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4uaapg$e1l@access5.digex.net>
References: <32057386.18750351@news.pacificnet.net> <4u754r$50b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075903.1326219@news.pacificnet.net> <4u9li4$a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u9li4$a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:40:40 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>	But holohugging attorneys swear the latter is as good as and no
>>>different than the former.  They all swear on a stack of Torahs that
>>>testimony is equal to physical evidence.  Not only equal, the same as.
>
>>Holocaust eyewitness testimony is better than physical evidence. It
>>has to be. There is nothing else. 
>
>	What I find amazing is that these holohuggers can not comprehend the
>difference.

    Perhaps you'd like to present some evidence for this?

    I thought not.  You're lying again.

    You had said that testimony was not evidence _at all_.  It is.
Physical evidence is also evidence.  But nobody ever said that the two
were the same.

    Baseball is a sport.  Football is a sport.  Do you think I cannot tell
the difference between baseball and football?

>	In either event, not very bright.  

    Seeing as your lies are so easily exposed, you are not very bright.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 14:02:08 PDT 1996
Article: 38311 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Here's a novel idea
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 6 Aug 1996 01:35:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4u6lij$qf@access5.digex.net>
References:   <31FFDC56.2D6E@rio.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2352 alt.revisionism:55564 alt.conspiracy:75092 alt.politics.white-power:38311 soc.culture.jewish:66672 talk.politics.guns:295143 talk.politics.libertarian:108625 talk.abortion:180314 alt.christnet:88950

In article , Ray Fischer  wrote:
>Chuck Ferree   wrote:
>
>>Ray,
>>What exactly is your agenda? Are you a true denier of the Holocaust? 
>>Are you just another anti-Semite? Are you really interest in the 
>>truth, or do you just like to take good people on and call them names? 
>
>Ah yes, the inevitable appearing of the thought-police, here to make
>sure that I accept, preferably without question, the existance of the
>holocaust as described by the Keepers of the Real Truth.

    Since you questioned someone else's motives, it is only fair to
question yours.  Your evasion is noted.


>Piss off.

    Why don't you do something really unique?  State your theory of what
happened in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and occupied Russia
during WWII.  Cite relevant evidence to support your position.  Deal with
evidence which does not support your theory.  Explain why your theory is
superior to other theories of the available evidence. 

    I know that's a lot harder than name-calling, but why not give it a
try?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 14:24:21 PDT 1996
Article: 75092 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Here's a novel idea
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 6 Aug 1996 01:35:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4u6lij$qf@access5.digex.net>
References:   <31FFDC56.2D6E@rio.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2352 alt.revisionism:55564 alt.conspiracy:75092 alt.politics.white-power:38311 soc.culture.jewish:66672 talk.politics.guns:295143 talk.politics.libertarian:108625 talk.abortion:180314 alt.christnet:88950

In article , Ray Fischer  wrote:
>Chuck Ferree   wrote:
>
>>Ray,
>>What exactly is your agenda? Are you a true denier of the Holocaust? 
>>Are you just another anti-Semite? Are you really interest in the 
>>truth, or do you just like to take good people on and call them names? 
>
>Ah yes, the inevitable appearing of the thought-police, here to make
>sure that I accept, preferably without question, the existance of the
>holocaust as described by the Keepers of the Real Truth.

    Since you questioned someone else's motives, it is only fair to
question yours.  Your evasion is noted.


>Piss off.

    Why don't you do something really unique?  State your theory of what
happened in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and occupied Russia
during WWII.  Cite relevant evidence to support your position.  Deal with
evidence which does not support your theory.  Explain why your theory is
superior to other theories of the available evidence. 

    I know that's a lot harder than name-calling, but why not give it a
try?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 14:43:02 PDT 1996
Article: 2352 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Here's a novel idea
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 6 Aug 1996 01:35:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4u6lij$qf@access5.digex.net>
References:   <31FFDC56.2D6E@rio.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2352 alt.revisionism:55564 alt.conspiracy:75092 alt.politics.white-power:38311 soc.culture.jewish:66672 talk.politics.guns:295143 talk.politics.libertarian:108625 talk.abortion:180314 alt.christnet:88950

In article , Ray Fischer  wrote:
>Chuck Ferree   wrote:
>
>>Ray,
>>What exactly is your agenda? Are you a true denier of the Holocaust? 
>>Are you just another anti-Semite? Are you really interest in the 
>>truth, or do you just like to take good people on and call them names? 
>
>Ah yes, the inevitable appearing of the thought-police, here to make
>sure that I accept, preferably without question, the existance of the
>holocaust as described by the Keepers of the Real Truth.

    Since you questioned someone else's motives, it is only fair to
question yours.  Your evasion is noted.


>Piss off.

    Why don't you do something really unique?  State your theory of what
happened in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and occupied Russia
during WWII.  Cite relevant evidence to support your position.  Deal with
evidence which does not support your theory.  Explain why your theory is
superior to other theories of the available evidence. 

    I know that's a lot harder than name-calling, but why not give it a
try?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:16 PDT 1996
Article: 55818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 7 Aug 1996 11:53:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4uae6h$g8a@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4u9oam$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:38482 alt.politics.nationalism.white:26871 alt.revisionism:55818 alt.skinheads:34209

In article <4u9oam$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 05:23:54 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>
>>In article <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>
>>>         Parliament does not apply in the US and never will.  We are armed.  
>
>>Is this the Mr. Giwer who never makes threats?
>
>	Statement of fact, fatbroad.

    It is a fact that the Constitution could not be amended to implement a
parliamentary system?  Going to start shooting if it is?


>	I am still waiting for the FBI to show up. 

    I will tell you something for your benefit.

    Naturally before visiting any sensible agent will want to know what
level of threat you may represent.

    Of course they will have read your web pages, including your political
views on guns and Waco.  They will also have read some of your more
irrational and incoherent posts.

    If I were an FBI agent coming to see you, I would be prepared for the
worst.  The very worst.

    I suggest that you be polite.  Very polite.  Also, keep your hands in
sight and don't make any sudden moves.


>	I presume they had a great chuckle over McVay's "complaint."

    Does the fact that a Justice Department attorney was in my home
recently asking me about you change your presumption any?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 18:01:08 PDT 1996
Article: 55823 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: 7 Aug 1996 10:48:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4uaab9$dg9@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>  <4u9gur$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2384 alt.revisionism:55823

In article <4u9gur$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:21:17 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>
>>In article <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>         I am very tired of ignorant Jews playing games like this.  
>> 
>>Then go find another playground.
>
>	They will go away.

    Who will go away?

>I am more than a match for all the ignorant, jews or not.  

    Your ignorance is indeed truly exceptional.  You don't even know how
to read with comprehension.  Care to try again with "after a few minutes
there was silence" and see if you still get screaming that goes on for
tens of minutes?

    And of course you are a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 18:44:26 PDT 1996
Article: 295143 of talk.politics.guns
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Here's a novel idea
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 6 Aug 1996 01:35:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4u6lij$qf@access5.digex.net>
References:   <31FFDC56.2D6E@rio.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2352 alt.revisionism:55564 alt.conspiracy:75092 alt.politics.white-power:38311 soc.culture.jewish:66672 talk.politics.guns:295143 talk.politics.libertarian:108625 talk.abortion:180314 alt.christnet:88950

In article , Ray Fischer  wrote:
>Chuck Ferree   wrote:
>
>>Ray,
>>What exactly is your agenda? Are you a true denier of the Holocaust? 
>>Are you just another anti-Semite? Are you really interest in the 
>>truth, or do you just like to take good people on and call them names? 
>
>Ah yes, the inevitable appearing of the thought-police, here to make
>sure that I accept, preferably without question, the existance of the
>holocaust as described by the Keepers of the Real Truth.

    Since you questioned someone else's motives, it is only fair to
question yours.  Your evasion is noted.


>Piss off.

    Why don't you do something really unique?  State your theory of what
happened in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and occupied Russia
during WWII.  Cite relevant evidence to support your position.  Deal with
evidence which does not support your theory.  Explain why your theory is
superior to other theories of the available evidence. 

    I know that's a lot harder than name-calling, but why not give it a
try?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 20:02:36 PDT 1996
Article: 3326 of alt.bible.prophecy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: not in Christ, and Jay's the bigot
Followup-To: alt.usage.english
Date: 6 Aug 1996 23:16:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4u91pu$rsb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s9otl$1pt@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <32000A91.4231@mail.gte.net> <4tor39$9h7@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <320128D0.4012@mail.gte.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:55717 alt.christnet:89273 alt.religion.christian:109847 alt.bible.prophecy:3326 alt.usage.english:54384

In article <320128D0.4012@mail.gte.net>, bud   wrote:
>Jay McCullough wrote:
>> 
>> >I think we can solve all your problems
>> with the (mis???) usage of the word anti-semite Bud.
>> How about we just settle for bigot?

[snip]

>> 3 (pay special attention here Bud) one who is odiously hostile
>> to people of a different race religion etc.
>> 
>> usage- Bud is a bigot.
>
>definition of bigot from Webster's:  (which one are you using, Jay?)
>big-ot (big'uht)  n. 
>                  1.  a person who is extremely intolerant of 
>                       another's creed, belief, or opinion.
>             [1590-1600; < MF (OF: derogatory name applied by 
>             the French to the Normans), perh. < OE bi God by 
>             God]

    I'm not sure I'd sign on to Jay's choice of #3, but how about this
one: 

big.ot \'big-*t\ n [MF, hypocrite, bigot] : one obstinately or
intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion
 

    You are obstinately devoted to your belief or opinion that
"antisemite" does not mean what the dictionary clearly says it means.

    You are therefore a bigot.

    Note followups.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 20:05:09 PDT 1996
Article: 55826 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: 7 Aug 1996 12:23:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4uafud$hhl@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3205f862.173892@news.pacificnet.net> <4u74bi$ktj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u74bi$ktj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:34:45 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>     What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination 
>>>by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the 
>>>Russians.  It is also interesting that at no time did the 
>>>Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing 
>>>much less mass gassing.  It is even more interesting that at no 
>>>time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the 
>>>number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing.  
>
>>	Giwer, don't you think it would have been easier to just say, 'No
>>one, ever, produced any kind of forensic evidence to verify the
>>Holocaust story'.  
>
>	No.  These holohuggers need the obvious spelled out for them at every
>turn so they can not introduce some little quirk exception as a
>response.

    The non-Russian sources presented cannot be dismissed as "quirk
exceptions." 


>	The Russians need to be pinned down as the origin of all of this and
>it has to be repeated often enough that the holohuggers can no longer
>deny it.  

    Let us also repeat the fact that Matt Giwer is a confessed liar who
repeatedly makes false assertions without any evidence.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

    No matter how many times Matt Giwer plays the obstinate little child
and repeats his assertion, the Russians were not the only source.  Despite
Mr. Giwer's ignorance and dishonesty, Kurt Gerstein was not tortured into
making gassing allegations - unless you suppose that the Swedish diplomat
he told the story to during the war somehow started torturing SS officers
looking for gassing evidence.  But that is still a Swede, not a Russian. 

    Franz Suchomel was not a Russian source.  Does anyone have evidence
that Claude Lanzmann was really a Russian who tortured him into admitting
that gassing took place in Treblinka for the documentary "Shoah?" 

    SS Dr. Munch spoke on Swedish television in 1981.

    Then of course there is Mr. Giwer's dishonest pretense that the IMT
was the only trial there was.  He ignores the trials conducted by the West
German government.  SS Dr. Wilhelm Pfannenstiel said Gerstein was wrong as
to what camp they visited together - but testified that he did accompany
Gerstein and witnessed a gassing.

    It is truly amazing how many Russians Mr. Giwer claims were in the SS. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 20:05:13 PDT 1996
Article: 55832 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An SS Court States: Almost like Lt. Calley
Date: 7 Aug 1996 12:31:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4uagdv$ht6@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tuvg9$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com> <4u3g3j$i36@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4u64i8$glk@news.iglobal.net> <4u9k6d$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u9k6d$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 6 Aug 1996 00:44:56 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:
>>Purchase a large piece of beef, e.g., a brisket.  In private, fire a 
>>round into it.  Then make a large laceration in it.
>
>>Burn it to ash.  Prove you shot and cut it.
>
>>This attempt's not even up to your usual lax standards.
>
>	Despite the beliefs of holohuggers, bodies are not burned to ash with
>the application of a Bic lighter.

    Confessed liar Matt Giwer of course produces no quotes to show who
said that bodies are burned to ash with the application of a Bic lighter.

>Even crematoria to not burn bodies
>to ash.  www.cremation.com if I remember correctly.

    Confessed liar Matt Giwer of course pretends that either all the body
burns to ash or none of it does.

>	But do not give up, there are two or three major claimants that
>exactly that is possible in the holohugger camp.

    Note the lack of quotes to support the assertion of a confessed liar.


>	Maybe they will come forward and make their case just in the nick of
>time to make you look like less of an idiot.  

    Maybe confessed liar Matt Giwer will produce quotes to back up his
claims about what was said.

    Maybe not.  That's where I'm laying my money, for sure.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug  7 20:23:17 PDT 1996
Article: 66672 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Here's a novel idea
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 6 Aug 1996 01:35:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4u6lij$qf@access5.digex.net>
References:   <31FFDC56.2D6E@rio.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2352 alt.revisionism:55564 alt.conspiracy:75092 alt.politics.white-power:38311 soc.culture.jewish:66672 talk.politics.guns:295143 talk.politics.libertarian:108625 talk.abortion:180314 alt.christnet:88950

In article , Ray Fischer  wrote:
>Chuck Ferree   wrote:
>
>>Ray,
>>What exactly is your agenda? Are you a true denier of the Holocaust? 
>>Are you just another anti-Semite? Are you really interest in the 
>>truth, or do you just like to take good people on and call them names? 
>
>Ah yes, the inevitable appearing of the thought-police, here to make
>sure that I accept, preferably without question, the existance of the
>holocaust as described by the Keepers of the Real Truth.

    Since you questioned someone else's motives, it is only fair to
question yours.  Your evasion is noted.


>Piss off.

    Why don't you do something really unique?  State your theory of what
happened in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and occupied Russia
during WWII.  Cite relevant evidence to support your position.  Deal with
evidence which does not support your theory.  Explain why your theory is
superior to other theories of the available evidence. 

    I know that's a lot harder than name-calling, but why not give it a
try?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug  8 18:23:25 PDT 1996
Article: 55943 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!caen!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: speaking of "witness" evidence
Date: 7 Aug 1996 10:41:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4ua9ue$d4m@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u9jeu$47i@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u9jeu$47i@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	It was a bit of a surprise but now well known that 70% of the US Black
>community believes that AIDS was invented why Whites to exterminate
>Blacks.  
>
>	Given the same level of "evidence" as at Nuremberg, the case is
>closed, Whites are guilty as charged.  

    The same level of evidence?  You mean that as at Nuremberg, there are
government documents detailing this biological warfare program?  Where? 

    Or are you just lying again?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


>	Such beliefs could not be so common were there not some truth behind
>them.  70% of the Blacks know of it, it has to be true.  

    The confessed liar Matt Giwer says it, therefore it has to be true. 

    Not.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Aug  9 08:02:30 PDT 1996
Article: 56026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 8 Aug 1996 22:10:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <4ue6n7$6fe@access5.digex.net>
References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4uahcm$ihb@access5.digex.net> <4ubi1b$kp1@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ubi1b$kp1@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 7 Aug 1996 12:48:22 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:05:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>         First off your basic numbers are at odds with people who know
>>>>> something about cremation.  Again, the internet cremation society for
>>>>> openers.
>>>
>>>>Try again, Matt. Numbers are numbers. Prove your contentions - or admit
>>>>that you're BSing to keep from admitting your ignorance. 
>>>
>>>	The research amounting to speaking to people with years in the
>>>cremation business and who have testified on the subject in court has
>>>been posted here.
>
>>    As have the comments of someone who designs cremation ovens, and
>>refutes a number of denier claims while taking a position between the
>>deniers and the Jahrling memo on cremation time.  In particular the second
>>body cremated does not take the fuel required for the first, since the
>>oven has been brought up to temperature from the first time.
>
>	Then it appears only that we have a stand off between two different
>opinions.  We do not have refutation.

    I think the word of an engineer who designs an oven trumps the opinion
of a mere user of an oven. 


>If both are telling the truth
>then there are other factors that are different that have not been
>presented.
>
>	As for heating the oven, do you have a reason to believe the process
>is any different from an ordinary kitchen oven?

    Yes.  The crematory oven is of course larger.  But the key difference
is that in your kitchen oven, you do not ignite the contents and thereby
liberate heat energy.  At least, you hope you don't.  The contents of your
kitchen oven do not serve as fuel, while the contents of the crematory
oven do.

    How very strange that you could not see this very obvious point.


>If not, the difference is not all that great.  
>
>>>If you were so busy you missed it, go find it on
>>>DejaNews.

    I should note once again that you never give URLs or search paths for
DejaNews.  I do give such finding aids.  Do you think the lurkers don't
notice that you make it almost impossible for them to check your
assertions, while I make it easy?



>>>	While you are searching you should also read the discussion on the
>>>incongruous decision to build crematoria instead of faster
>>>incinerators.
>
>>    More of Matt's "The fact that they didn't do what I would have done
>>in the circumstances shows that they didn't do it."  A very egocentric
>>standard of evidence.
>
>	As you know, BEFORE the mythical gassing began, there was only one
>crematorium.  Then, according to the myth, they built four others
>solely for the purpose of mass extermination and elimination of the
>bodies.  So solely for the purposes of getting rid of the bodies they
>built crematoria based upon the design that was common at the time.

    In other words, they used the "obvious" way for getting rid of bodies
dead of any cause.  So what?


>	It is no different than asking why a person who only goes back and
>forth to the grocery store why he bought a tractor rig for
>transportation.

    Bad analogy, for the reason mentioned above.  A tractor rig is not the
obvious way to get to the grocery store.



>	Of course there is a simpler explanation.  There were none other than
>those registered who died and were cremated.

    I do not see how this is any simpler than mine.  Even without mass
murder it would have been more efficient to use the incinerator.
Therefore your argument cannot demonstrate anything.



>>>	You have missed so much in this disucussion that it behooves you to
>>>bring yourself up to speed before engaging in the discussion.
>
>>    This from the man who can't even read "after a few minutes there was
>>silence" correctly, and thinks that there was no entity or group of
>>countries which referred to the "United Nations" before the founding of
>>what we call today the United Nations.
>
>	It is always bettfor for you folks to remember what happened in your
>own clever way.

    DejaNews remembers it the same way I do.  Funny thing about that.

    Search for posts from mgiwer@combase.com for the quoted phrase "United
Nations" and for the quoted phrase "after a few minutes there was
silence" plus the quoted phrase "tens of minutes."


>>>>You've joined the ranks of Al Gentile, Ken Pangborn and Tzipporah
>>>>Benavraham in being willing to distort the facts to win an argument.
>>>
>>>	I have no interest in your free associations.  
>
>>    He also has no interest in the truth.  See for example
>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted
>
>>[Worthless unsupported assertions by confessed liar Matt Giwer deleted.]

[Irrelevant IMT quote snipped]


    You do not like my citing your confession of lying when you give
worthless unsupported assertions?

    If so, there is a very simple (and quite legal) way for you to stop me
>from  doing it.  Funny you haven't been able to figure out what it is.  I
would have thought it would be obvious by now.  But I suppose a mere 163
IQ type such as yourself is not up to the job. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Aug  9 10:52:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56071 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: 8 Aug 1996 17:40:39 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <4udmsn$ocu@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4u9gur$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4uaab9$dg9@access5.digex.net> <4ubatc$pat@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2418 alt.revisionism:56071

In article <4ubatc$pat@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 7 Aug 1996 10:48:09 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4u9gur$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:21:17 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>>>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>         I am very tired of ignorant Jews playing games like this.  
>>>> 
>>>>Then go find another playground.
>>>
>>>	They will go away.
>
>>    Who will go away?
>
>>>I am more than a match for all the ignorant, jews or not.  
>
>>    Your ignorance is indeed truly exceptional.  You don't even know how
>>to read with comprehension.  Care to try again with "after a few minutes
>>there was silence" and see if you still get screaming that goes on for
>>tens of minutes?
>
>	That depends upon which story one chooses to believe at any particular
>moment.

    No, confessed liar, it does not.  It depends only on your own lack of
reading comprehension.  You were asked to support the claim that the
screaming went on for tens of minutes, and you answered with a quote which
said that after a few minutes there was silence.

 http://xp3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=6889244&server=dnserver.db96q1


>I have found and posted many conflicting stories for you red
>queens.  

    Quite true!  Three contradictory stories in the case of Rack Jite's
web page on Volant Turnpike.

 http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-and-censor

    Plus many other contradictions, such as your statement in one post
that 30,000 kcal would be needed to boil off the water in cremating a
corpse, and your subsequent denial that you had posted such a thing.

 http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-30000-kcal

    You are indeed an unreliable John Dean type witness.  Yet you continue
to make assertions without giving references.  Just what do you think you
are accomplishing?

>>    And of course you are a confessed liar.
>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

[Irrelevant IMT quote snipped]

    At least is good to see that you do not deny that you are a confessed
liar.  This is certainly very relevant for assigning a value to your
unsupported assertions.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug 10 09:53:36 PDT 1996
Article: 56176 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Extermination or Sterilization
Date: 9 Aug 1996 02:01:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4uek86$dgq@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u6rmj$t3l@juliana.sprynet.com> <4u9jor$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u9jor$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 6 Aug 1996 07:19:47 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
>>Why was SS doctor Clauberg at Auschwitz in 1943 allegedly doing research 
>>on sterilization methods to be used in regard to the Jews

    I believe you will find that the SS had some interest in the
possibility of sterilizing some other groups as well. 


>> if the SS had orders to exterminate them?  So many stories.....so many
>>lies.


>	What was someone allegedly doing something?  
>
>	I wonder why the holohuggers are allegedly screwing small farm animals
>for the same reasons.  
>
>	Is it not amazing that they hold and document a huge conference at
>Wannsee to create a smoking gun for the holohuggers to point to and
>then never another word, meeting, whatever.  

    Posen, 4th October 1943.

    Himmler's speech is on tape.  At this meeting, which the confessed
liar Matt Giwer falsely claims never happened, Himmler speaks of the
extermination ("Ausrottung") of the Jewish people.  Just to make the point
clear for slow people like Mr. Giwer, he talks of corpses and compares it
to a previous episode of murder.

    Physical evidence.  Produced by the Americans, by the way, not the
Russians.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug 10 09:53:37 PDT 1996
Article: 56177 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: 9 Aug 1996 18:59:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4ugft4$jkt@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>  <4ucq11$4ef@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 8 Aug 1996 13:28:01 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan
>Schneider) wrote:
>>Not to mention, that liquid hydrocyanic acid explodes, when contacted with 
>>oxygen and alcalics. Somebody here doubting that concrete is very alcalic?
>
>	It is interesting to read that when cans of ZB were opened they
>exploded.  That does sort of make the entire use of ZB rather
>worthless, does it not?  

    It is interesting to read that ZB was _liquid_ hydrocyanic acid.  I
thought you said it was wood pulp?  What is today's true truth?

    Or did your reading comprehension take a powder again?

    Or are you just lying again?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug 10 09:53:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56200 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: none but the polarized
Date: 9 Aug 1996 09:50:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4uffn1$od7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uf1mo$2o9@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uf1mo$2o9@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	That is all who are here publically.  They will never change.
>
>	This NG is for the lurkers.  
>
>	Of what value to claim a post is irrational when a lurker can read it
>and find it rational?  

    Of what value is an unsupported claim when a lurker can find that the
person making the claim is a confessed liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

    Not to mention the rest of the lies catalogued in the directory with
the above URL.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug 10 09:53:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56243 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 6 Aug 1996 23:33:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4u92q5$s69@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3206148B.65D5@unb.ca> <4u776g$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4u776g$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 12:34:35 -0300, Keith Morrison 
>wrote:

[snip]

>	Agreed.  I am right.  You are wrong.
>
>	Agreed.  You are misreprsenting to support you favorite holocaust.

    Agreed.  Matt Giwer is a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


    Agreed.  The unsupported assertions of a confessed liar are completely
worthless and have no place in this discussion.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug 10 18:55:20 PDT 1996
Article: 38880 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 9 Aug 1996 17:00:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4ug8tv$fqv@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2463 alt.revisionism:56371 alt.conspiracy:76646 alt.politics.white-power:38880 soc.culture.jewish:67420 talk.politics.guns:297262 talk.politics.libertarian:110441 talk.abortion:181031 alt.christnet:90479

In article <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	As you may know, us skeptics NEVER expect any of the raw interviews or
>uneditted transcripts to be released.  From what we have now, we know
>that the raw information is the death of the gassing stories.  
>
>	The raw statements are always agains the gassing stories.  As you have
>grossly overstated, all her clan did was die of disease, she saw no
>burning unless other testimony is false.  
>	
>	One would hope that the US government contribution had a string
>requireing full and immediate disclosure without editting in any
>manner.  It will be a revisionist treasure trove.  But of course, that
>will not be a condition.  Holohuggers know better than to agree to
>that sort of thing.  

    Ho-hum.  More unsupported (and false) assertions from the confessed
liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

    If he wants me to stop bringing up his confession that he is a liar 
every time he lies or makes unsupported assertions, there is a very simple
way for him to get me to stop.  Do you suppose he can put his 163 IQ
points in gear and figure out what it is?

    Followups set appropriately.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 12:14:08 PDT 1996
Article: 56545 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Tom Moran - an enviromental hazard
Date: 11 Aug 1996 11:36:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4ukulg$jn8@access5.digex.net>
References: <320c8ba7.311919@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <320c8ba7.311919@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>
 >	Nizkor is a threat to our ecological system. Many of their FTP
>files are posts from alt.revisionism, whether their own post or
>someone else. Nizkor leaves the headers in which takes up about a
>quarter of a page. Include this with their signing format and a whole
>half page is wasted. Printing out Nizkor files often ends up with just
>the Nizkor signature on the last page, all trhis thereby reeking havoc
>on our forestry.
>
>	Printing Nizkor files including the alt.revisionism headers and
>Nizkor signature stresses out your printer, demanding more ink and hot
>time.   

    Nobody made you print the files.  You can edit them down before
printing if you like.  You are the one responsible for the waste if you
insist on printing them.


>	It also requires more retrieval time putting more demand on the
>Internet resources.
>
>     People who have those rip off servers, like Compu-serve, end up
>having to pay more for the online time needed to wait for the
>alt.revisionism headers and Nizkor signatures.
>
>	Storing Nizkor files in your computer clobbers your hard drive
>with all the extra atl.revisionism headers and Nizkor signatures.
>
>	All this ends up using more electrical resources.

    In that case, what shall we say of little Tommy Moran, who keeps
reposting his articles time and time again instead of giving the DejaNews
URL?  And of course there is his habit of quoting hundreds of lines of
text to add one silly little comment below.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 15:52:51 PDT 1996
Article: 56565 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: 11 Aug 1996 12:30:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4ul1rm$m0u@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uggos$mvb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4ujr9n$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ujr9n$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	You refused to posted the english.  I did it first.  Unlike you, I was
>completely honest

    Mr. Giwer is a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 15:52:52 PDT 1996
Article: 56570 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!usc!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Reaches new Heights Of Insanity (Re: the Zyklon B
Date: 11 Aug 1996 12:08:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4ul0h9$ks8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uegil$cra@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4uhhvo$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4uk2df$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uk2df$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	So where is what you were challenged to present?  

    Read the fine paper.  Do you need it turned into pictures to make up
for your poor reading comprehension?  Funny that you objected to the
Polish chemists' paper as being based on one data point but hold to the
Rudolph graph based on one data point. 

    And when are you going to post the cremation energy figures you
claimed you knew how to compute?  You threw out a 30,000 kcal figure with
no formulas or mention of assumptions on which it was based, then denied
having posted such a figure!

    Hypocrite.

    And confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56593 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust extermination claims
Supersedes: <4uktbr$j62@access5.digex.net>
Date: 11 Aug 1996 11:22:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 259
Message-ID: <4uktr2$jcp@access5.digex.net>
References: <199608102334.QAA20921@mercury.uniserve.com> <320D89B5.A14@kaiwan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <320D89B5.A14@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven   wrote:
>Hilary Ostrov wrote:
>> 
>> In <320D09E3.69F4@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven  wrote:
>> 
>> >hebe@algonet.se wrote:
>> >>
>> >> This is the text for a SA-song sung by students in Germany 1934:
>> >>
>> >>         "Sharpen the long daggers against the sidewalk
>> >>          Dig them down in the body of the jew
>> >>          A tide stream of blood must sipper"
>> >>
>> >> and so on...
>> >>
>> >> I don't know if my english is the best but, I ask all revisionists a
>> >> question: how do you pinheads dismiss texts like this, when you're
>> >> denying the Holocaust? The Holocaust happened! It's a matter of
>> >> record. The only ones who deny it are people with ties to racial-hate
>> >> groups and antisemitic groups!
>> 
>> >It would only take a few minutes of your time to familiarize yourself
>> >with the revisionist position on the Holocaust, and then you could
>> >answer questions such as this for yourself.

    Typical evasion.


>> Finally a true statement from Mr. Raven!  Indeed it does take only a
>> few minutes of one's time to ascertain the "position" of those who
>> mistakenly call themselves "revisionists."  However, it is interesting
>> to note that Mr. Raven has _ignored_ the question in the post to which
>> he pretends to respond.  Why _do_ you persist in dismissing such
>> texts, Mr. Raven?  And why do you obfuscate instead of answering
>> questions?
>
>As can be clearly seen in my post, I do not dismiss "texts like this."
>Are you so ideologically driven that you cannot understand posts you not
>only read but to which you respond?

    Mr. Raven persists in evading the question.


>> >Revisionists do not deny the Holocoaust. Revisionists do not deny that
>> >many Jews suffered and died during the Second World War.

    Revisionists do deny the Holocaust.  They change the definition of
Holocaust to "many Jews suffered and died" so they can lie and pretend
they do not deny it.


>> >Revisionists DO say that there was no German program to exterminate
>> >Europe's Jews,

    In other words, "revisionists" deny the Holocaust.  They dismiss texts
such as the one Mr. Raven pretends he does not dismiss, plus more
substantive texts such as Himmler's speech at Posen of October, 1943 in
which he speaks of the "Ausrottung" of the Jewish race.  "Revisionists" 
pretend that the Nazis did not say what they clearly said, over and over
again. 


>> > that numerous claims of mass killings in "gas chambers"
>> >are false, and that the estimate of six million Jewish wartime dead is
>> >an irresponsible exaggeration.
>> 
>> Indeed they DO utter such _unsubstantiated_ assertions (freedom of
>> speech is very much a blessing here - how else would we know how
>> totally bereft of honesty these apologists really are?!) with
>> predictable regularity.  They vainly hope that if they repeat
>> themselves - and recycle their lies and distortions - often enough
>> sooner or later someone will make the mistake of giving them credence.
>
>We keep repeating this because it is true, it is what we believe, and we
>continue to hope that if we say it long enough and often enough, perhaps
>people reading it -- even people such as yourself -- will understand
>that we mean what we say, not what others "interpret" us as saying.

    Since Mr. Raven objects to interpretations of his words, perhaps he'd
like to discuss his own rather questionable interpretations of the words
of others. 



Greg Raven, Associate Editor of the Journal for Historical Review, was
presented with a number of testimonies, including that of SS man Hans
Bo"ck. On the subject of Bo"ck, Raven wrote: 

     "Pressac himself casts doubt on some of the aspects
     of this statement, pointing out, for example, that
     Boeck could only have witnessed one such gassing (at
     most)."

This is a paraphrase - and worse, a paraphrase with no page number.
Someone who wanted to see if the paraphrase accurately reflected the
original would have to read through the whole book to find it.  I raised
this question in a reply to Raven's rebuttal:

     "Is 'at most' in Pressac's original text, or is it a clever insertion on
     Mr. Raven's part, as we are only presented with a paraphrase, not a 
     direct quote, and no exact page citation to make it easy to check 
     the accuracy of it, so that if we want to verify it for ourselves we 
     must take the time to read Pressac cover to cover?"


Raven's scornful reply:

     "Well, if you were familiar with Pressac's book, you would find it
     relatively easy to locate the text, as it is in the section on SS
     testimonies. Lacking that familiarity, you could have referred to
     Faurisson's long review of Pressac's book, which appeared in two 
     parts in the Journal of Historical Review."

Apparently Mr. Raven feels that I should be intimately familiar with
Pressac's book, and if not, magically know what secondary source would
tell me where to find the part I'm looking for.  Perhaps it would be
reading too much into this, but one could easily get the impression Raven
is being condescending, saying that if *I* were as good a historian as
*he*, I would be familiar with Pressac's book and know where to look - so
he need not (and still does not) bother to tell me the page, as an amateur
like myself is not worth wasting his valuable time on.  The most he will
do for me is tell me to look in the section on SS testimonies. 

    That's one way of reading Raven's response.  But Dr. Faurisson, the 
expert on texts, teaches us that there are other ways.  And indeed, there 
is.

    I do not read it as the condescension of a professional historian to
an amateur.  I read it as a desperate bluff.  He won't tell me the page
not because I'm not worth bothering with, but because he knows that once
the true text of this book (which even Friedrich Berg has noted is hard
for the average person to find) is compared with Raven's paraphrase, he
will have no credibility left.  He is terrified that if he gives me any
help at all, I will be able to expose him, and is desperately praying that
I don't have access to a copy.

    Apparently Mr. Raven does not realize that I live in the area of
Washington, DC, home of the Library of Congress and the Holocaust Museum
library.  While the Library of Congress copy is missing, the Museum has
not one but two copies in its library.  I do have some familiarity with
Pressac's book, and I have actually known for some time that Raven's
paraphrase bears no relation to what Pressac really says, other than
containing the words "gassings," "see," and "one" (in that order).

    I also know that "the" section on SS testimonies does not exist -
there is one set of testimonies on Krema I which includes SS men Pery
Broad and Rudolf Ho"ss, along with Sonderkommando members Alter
Fajnzylberg and - if memory serves - Filip Muller.  The discussion of
Broad is on p. 128 (not 124 as Raven had it).

     Here is the full text of Pressac's comments on Bo"ck's testimony,
found not in "the section on SS testimonies," but all the way over on page
181 of the English language edition:

     "There is only one clue to show that the scene took place at Bunker 
     2: 'a long farmhouse'.  In this type of account, this is already a 
     good deal.  SS Bo"ck seems to have been a decent enough man.  The 
     gassing of children upset him so much that he saw the SS medical 
     orderlies 'climb on the roof' (they did not climb so high) and did 
     not look at his wife for four weeks.  Not everyone is cut out to be 
     an executioner.  Hermann Langbein writes: 

         'Bo"ck is the only witness who demonstrated a sincere aversion 
         before the court.' 

     I would ask just one question: 'How many gassings did Bo"ck see?'  
     If he only saw the one described before the court, it is not so 
     surprising that his 'aversion' should remain intact.  If he had 
     been forced by his duties to see them regularly, his attitude might 
     be different.  It is all too easy to become hardened." 


    Pressac's text speaks for itself.  It certainly does not need Raven to 
speak for it.

    What Raven posted about what Pressac said is now proven to be
blatantly false.  That is that. 



    When Mr. Raven has dealt with this, we can move on to his quote from
Himmler with very interesting ellipses.


>> >If
>> >you have evidence to show that the revisionist position in wrong, it
>> >should not be necessary for you to stoop to personal attacks or question
>> >people's motives to make your point.

    I have evidence the revisionist position relies on distortions such as
the above, unsupported assertions, deceptive editing, selective quotation,
lies by omission, and outright lies such as the Lachout Document. 


>> To the contrary, Mr. Raven:  are you not aware of the old maxim "He
>> who asserts must prove."  As you yourself noted at the beginning of
>> your post, it takes only a few minutes to ascertain the so-called
>> "revisionist position."   That you have repeatedly failed to
>> substantiate your claims is evidence in itself of its "wrongness."
>
>It is not the revisionists who assert the existence of fantastic
>chemical slaughterhouses, for which there are no plans,

    The Bauleitung plans for the Kremas exist.  "Revisionists" merely
assert that these are not plans for what Bischoff, in a letter to Kammler,
called a "Vergasungskeller" (gassing cellar). 


>no budgets,

    The Kremas at Birkenau were built.  They did not have budgets?

    Zyklon was purchased.  There was no budget for it?  If it was only for
delousing, why was it called "material for resettlement of the Jews"  in
one memo? 


>no physical remains,

    The physical remains of Leichenkeller 1 of Kremas II and III can be
found at Birkenau.


>etc. If you believe there is or was such a thing as a
>Nazi gas chamber, all you need do is produce it.

    It is no longer in working condition, but it is there at Birkenau.


>> Incidentally, if the so-called "revisionist view" had any truth to it,
>> those who promote it should have no difficulty presenting a coherent
>> alternative explanation for the overwhelming body of existing evidence
>> - which includes the Nazis own records and testimonies of both
>> perpetrators and survivors.  To date, they have failed to do so.
>
>For over 15 years, articles in The Journal of Historical Review have
>done just this, along with other materials that express the revisionist
>position. Indeed, what makes the revisionist position so strong is that
>there are alternate explanations for virtually all of the so-called
>evidence presented in support of Holocoasut extermination claims.

    One can of course come up with alternate explanations for virtually
anything.  One could postulate that the people who cannot be found were
scooped up in flying saucers and taken to Mars.  It is an alternative
explanation, and there is nothing to prove that it did not happen. 
However, the convergence of evidence argues against this conclusion. 

    The weakness of the "revisionist" position is that many of the
alternative explanations are based on lies, distortions, assertions
unsupported by any evidence, and special pleading such as the claim that
without exception, all the SS witnesses who confirm gassing are lying
because they are afraid of retaliation.  No evidence is offered to support
this claim, of course, and "revisionists" cannot use this to explain away
things such as Franz Suchomel's testimony to Claude Lanzmann in "Shoah,"
given under a promise of anonymity which Lanzmann broke. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: 11 Aug 1996 12:44:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4ul2ko$mbs@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ugft4$jkt@access5.digex.net> <4ujrju$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ujrju$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 9 Aug 1996 18:59:48 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 8 Aug 1996 13:28:01 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan
>>>Schneider) wrote:
>>>>Not to mention, that liquid hydrocyanic acid explodes, when contacted with 
>>>>oxygen and alcalics. Somebody here doubting that concrete is very alcalic?
>>>
>>>	It is interesting to read that when cans of ZB were opened they
>>>exploded.  That does sort of make the entire use of ZB rather
>>>worthless, does it not?  
>
>>    It is interesting to read that ZB was _liquid_ hydrocyanic acid.  I
>>thought you said it was wood pulp?  What is today's true truth?
>
>>    Or did your reading comprehension take a powder again?
>
>>    Or are you just lying again?
>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted
>
>>-- 
>>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
>
>	You appear to be trying to prove you are illiterate.  98-99% pure HCN
>(as a liquid to do vapor pressure else it could not be used) and the
>claim was that it exploded on contact with oxygen.  

    You appear to be trying to prove you are an idiot.  The HCN was
adsorbed onto the carrier.  The product _as a whole_ was certainly not
98-99% pure HCN, as you seem to be trying to imply.  The carrier would
have prevented the entire contents from being suddenly put in contact with
the concrete.  Pouring liquid HCN would not have kept this from happening. 


>	To refresh your third grade science, the air contains oxygen.  

    I know that.  When are you going to pass third grade reading and math?

    And ethics.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:47 PDT 1996
Article: 56619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 11 Aug 1996 13:44:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4ul652$nsa@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <3209EB69.6D45@gryn.org> <4uf0ra$kno@sj <4ujfcl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ujfcl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:17:24 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>wrote:
>>Yet again you bring up a single erroneous description among thousands of
>>accurate ones.
>
>>Sorry, but trying to carp on that single error is just intellectual
>>dishonesty. 
>
>>You lost the argument and simply repeat nonsense - as always.
>
>	You really do need to catch up on the conference material.  That is
>one of many I and others have posted.  For example eyewitnesses have
>conclusively proven that HCN and CO are on the same order of
>lethality.  

    This is a lie which I have already dealt with.  Matt took the highest
ESTIMATE he could find for a cyanide gassing and a case where too little
was used, or used in an area with poor circulation and sealing, and
compared it to the lowest ESTIMATE he could find for CO gassing, and
ignored all considerations of dosage, temperature, room size and
circulation, etc.

    One cannot simply say that CO is "less lethal" or "more lethal" than
HCN.  I will happily spend two hours in a warehouse in which one pellet of
Zyklon is dropped if Mr. Giwer will spend fifteen minutes in a room with a
6% CO concentration.

    Mr. Giwer knows this quite well.  But he is a liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:48 PDT 1996
Article: 56620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The coward and liar Giwer
Date: 11 Aug 1996 10:31:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4ukqre$i94@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uk6fl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uk6fl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Every so often the coward, Ken McVay, posts some questions.  His
>lackies repeat them pretending they mean something but they are as
>stupid as is McVay.
>
>	Now if the coward wishes to change his killfile and read and respond
>to my answers to his questions the coward will have come out of his
>shell.

    The only problem with this is that I do not have Mr. Giwer in my
killfile, and yet I have never seen him give a straight answer to the
questions.

    No doubt he will claim they are on DejaNews.  No doubt he will fail to
give a URL or any other information to allow someone to find his alleged
answers on DejaNews.



>	But as with all holohuggers, he is a lying piece of shit who has no
>right to claim he is posting is public as he has not the teats to face
>her accusers.  

    It should be kept in mind that Mr. Giwer is a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    Mr. Giwer is invited to repost his alleged answers as a followup to
this article, or the URL to the DejaNews archived copy of his supposed
answers.

    My psychic prediction is that the cowardly lying troll will do
neither. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:49 PDT 1996
Article: 56632 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: listen up, Alec G.
Supersedes: <4ul374$mk9@access5.digex.net>
Date: 11 Aug 1996 13:25:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4ul51p$nct@access5.digex.net>
References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <4ubi1b$kp1@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4ue6n7$6fe@access5.digex.net> <4uf266$2sr@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uf266$2sr@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 8 Aug 1996 22:10:47 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>    I think the word of an engineer who designs an oven trumps the opinion
>>of a mere user of an oven. 
>
>	You must still be an undergrad.   
>
>	That a designer can ever know more than the user of the design is an
>absurdity of the first magnitude.  

    Everyone who uses a TV set knows all about antenna design, cathode ray
tubes, frequencies, transistors, etc.  Is that the claim you are indeed
making?


>	Your statement is laughable, an academic absurdity, and not uncommon.
>
>
>	The engineer tells his wife how great is it going to be when she gets
>it.  The wife knows what she got.  The wife is wrong in your opinion.

    Not at all the same as describing what is feasible _in general_, which
is the subject under discussion.  But I suppose this sort of dishonesty is
only to be expected from a liar such as yourself.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 17:58:58 PDT 1996
Article: 56657 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Nizkor:  promoter of lies
Date: 11 Aug 1996 11:51:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4ukviv$k3a@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4ubde4$1i4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <320A16B7.1E3A@gryn.org> <4uhdp9$7hq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56657 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:442

In article <4uhdp9$7hq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 12:32:55 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>         Freedom of speech violations?
>>> 
>>> >    I suggest that you be polite.  Very polite.  Also, keep your hands in
>>> >sight and don't make any sudden moves.
>>> 
>>>         Right.  Thanks a lot.
>
>>Don't get too cocky, Matt. 
>
>>Seriously!
>
>	What would it matter at this point?  On the presumption that now three
>people claim to have been questioned by everything from the FBI to
>federal prosecutors.

    Excuse me?  Who made such claims?  Are you hallucinating again?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 17:58:59 PDT 1996
Article: 56663 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Extermination or Sterilization
Date: 11 Aug 1996 13:34:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4ul5il$njl@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u6rmj$t3l@juliana.sprynet.com> <4u9jor$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4uek86$dgq@access5.digex.net> <4uhah9$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uhah9$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 9 Aug 1996 02:01:42 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4u9jor$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>	Is it not amazing that they hold and document a huge conference at
>>>Wannsee to create a smoking gun for the holohuggers to point to and
>>>then never another word, meeting, whatever.  
>
>>    Posen, 4th October 1943.
>
>>    Himmler's speech is on tape.  At this meeting, which the confessed
>>liar Matt Giwer falsely claims never happened, Himmler speaks of the
>>extermination ("Ausrottung") of the Jewish people.  Just to make the point
>>clear for slow people like Mr. Giwer, he talks of corpses and compares it
>>to a previous episode of murder.
>
>>    Physical evidence.  Produced by the Americans, by the way, not the
>>Russians.
>
>	The interesting part of the speech story is that Hitler himself was
>there to hear it.  

    Matt Giwer tries to shift the subject to avoid admitting that (once
again) he lost. 

    And of course there is no source for this claim that anyone said
Hitler was there.  Can Mr. Giwer produce a source for this?  Did he
misread "Hitler" for "Himmler?"  Or is he just making it up as usual?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 11 21:47:15 PDT 1996
Article: 56703 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 11 Aug 1996 13:06:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4ul3vg$mtp@access5.digex.net>
References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <4uf2tr$l8c@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <320B9A9E.540E@gryn.org> <4ujo45$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ujo45$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 16:07:58 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>         You blew it badly lying about the fluid flow rates on the banks and
>>> bottoms of rivers.
>
>
>>Congratulations on losing again, Matt.
>
>>The math shows you to be wrong.
>
>>Either show your "corrections" properly or accept that you blew it
>>again.
>
>>The best that you can do is dump a useless and totally incorrect web
>>page of your own into the middle of a post.
>
>	Fine with me.  You insist that fluid flow near boundaries is the same
>as near the center of the channel.  You know better but you claim this
>false claim is true.  

    Note that Matt Giwer does not provide the DejaNews URL where Alec made
this alleged claim, which I do not remember him making.


>	As I have said, holohuggers will lie to promote their version of the
>holocaust.  

    Check out

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

and decide whether Mr. Giwer can be trusted to tell the truth about
anything.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:33 PDT 1996
Article: 56745 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 11 Aug 1996 13:19:23 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4ul4mr$n6p@access5.digex.net>
References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <4uf2tr$l8c@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <320c9f0b.7294615@news.inetport.com> <4ujr0c$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ujr0c$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>>Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>
>	I have.  I have gotten the majority of my anti-gassing information
>from there.  It only takes critical review of the material.  They post
>anything that comes along no matter how it shoots down the gassing
>claim.  

    Mr. Giwer keeps asserting this, but he never demonstrates what
_should_ happen, or gives a source for that shows what is described is
impossible if properly read, or that he can read at all.  I still recall
his claim that witnesses described the screaming for going on for tens of
minutes, and posting as support a testimony that said, "after a few
minutes there was silence."

    I also recall that he is a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:34 PDT 1996
Article: 56747 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!jussieu.fr!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.be.innet.net!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 12 Aug 1996 00:59:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4umdnd$e3n@access5.digex.net>
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2521 alt.revisionism:56747 alt.conspiracy:77126 alt.politics.white-power:39078 soc.culture.jewish:67637

In article <4ujmk3$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:03:47 -0400, Konrad Vandegaer
> wrote:
>
>
>>On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Andy Walton wrote:
>>> I can only assume thatthis is a work of satire, demanding the same level
>>> of "proof" for Dresden that deniers demand for the Holocaust. As satire,
>>> it may be a bit too subtle. 
>
>>  As satire it's right on.  For the deniers though, the problem is that
>>  they're a bit too dense to recognize satire e.g. Pissed Youth.
>
>	You too appear to miss the point.  No one cares in the least if
>someone does not accept the Dresden story.  
>
>	So why the difference with people not accepting the gassing story?  
>
>	What difference does it make?  
>
>	Answer:  None whatsoever.  

    Gee, then what do you think you are doing here?  Obviously nothing of
any value, according to your own words.  After all, if it makes no
difference if people do not accept the gassing story, it makes no
difference if they do.  Yet you seem to be spending a lot of energy
arguing against it.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:35 PDT 1996
Article: 56753 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 12 Aug 1996 01:56:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4umh3b$fld@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <4uh9o0$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2523 alt.revisionism:56753 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:443

In article <4uh9o0$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 12:06:55 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>wrote:
>
>>Considering your - er - their penchant for selectivity and creative
>>editing, why would you want more facts? They only get in your way.
>
>	Considering how many times I have put back what you editted out just
>to maintain the sense of a post, it is unclear where you claim is
>coming from.  

    For an example of Mr. Giwer's willingness to engage in dishonest
editing, please see my article

http://xp6.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=
%3c4pde78$nbg@access1.digex.net%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3

and Mr. Giwer's followup

http://xp3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1313074&server=dnserver.db96q3


    But what can one expect from a confessed liar like Mr. Giwer?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:35 PDT 1996
Article: 56766 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here's a novel idea
Date: 12 Aug 1996 01:27:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4umfc3$f2q@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4ueocl$lf3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4uhgd5$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uhgd5$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote [to Sara Schwartz]:
>	Name calling by a person who does not know how so save a file and
>browse it?  

    As opposed to name calling by Matt Giwer, a person who did not know
how to save email to a file and post it until I taught him.  (He still
does not know how to read simple English much of the time.)


>	Perhaps you should pay for one of those fancy internet courses that
>teach you how to fondle a rat.  

    Evidently the only way Mr. Giwer can get women to fondle him.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:36 PDT 1996
Article: 56780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: 12 Aug 1996 02:10:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4umhs8$fsq@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4ujjeu$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4umeu1$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4umeu1$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	But how do you explain ALL the "testimonies" being false in most
>aspects?
>
>	I can explain it very easily in two ways.  
>
>	The first is that they were repeating camp rumors.
>
>	The second is that the testimony was generated by whatever the KGB was
>called in those days.  

    Of course Matt must pretend that Franz Suchomel never spoke to Claude
Lanzmann and admitted gassing, that Dr. Muench never spoke to Swedish
television and admitted gassing, that Rauff never gave a deposition in
Chile affirming that Becker sent him a letter about gassing vans....

    This is, of course, because he is a liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:37 PDT 1996
Article: 56790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: 12 Aug 1996 02:16:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4umi89$g2d@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4ujmcm$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4umg8f$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2534 alt.revisionism:56790

In article <4umg8f$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:30:01 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>># A quick suggestion is that they were guerilla fighters and
>># died in a reprisal.  The rules of warfare at the time 
>># prohibited guerilla fighters and resistance movements.  
>
>>No, no, Giwer. That won't do.
>
>>1) Jager's report explicitly mentions a huge number of
>>   Jewish women and children executed by his Einsatzkommando.
>
>	That is called a reprisal.  The same thing was done in France.  

   Yet another unsupported assertion from the confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>>2) Himmler's report to Hitler includes a breakdown of the
>>   different categories of victims. Partisans etc. are listed
>>   in a separate category. But 363,000 Jews are also listed
>>   as being executed, during the four months covered by the
>>   report.
>
>	Perhaps you could post that some day in your copious free time?  

    It has been done.  As you missed it, you must get a new service
provider.  That is a Giwer rule.



>>3) Letter from Inspector of Armaments in the Ukraine to General of
>>   Infantry, Thomas, December 2 1941: clearly states that the
>>   Jews did not represent a danger to the German Army.
>
>	A danger to the Army is not the same as killing members of the army
>which was the reason for reprisals.

    Perhaps in your copious free time you will post one scrap of evidence
that these killings were reprisals.

    You are making it up as you go, of course.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56800 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 11 Aug 1996 13:38:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4ul5pq$nn6@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <3209EB69.6D45@gryn.org> <4uf0ra$kno@sj <320B3A64.439C@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <320B3A64.439C@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 09:28:09 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >We already settled that one, Matt.
>> 
>> >I see no need to repeat an argument that you lost so easily.
>> 
>> >As for trying to engage you in it - most certainly *NOT*!
>> 
>>         I agree it was settled.  The descriptions provided do not in any
>> manner match cyanide poisoning -- unless you are into gelatinous
>> mixtures of flesh and clothing that is.
>> 
>
>Yet again you bring up a single erroneous description among thousands of
>accurate ones.
>
>Sorry, but trying to carp on that single error is just intellectual
>dishonesty. 

    It is even worse than that.  First, it was a secondary if not tertiary
source.  Second, not even that writer said that the "gelatinous mass" was
due to the cyanide rather than decomposition.


>You lost the argument and simply repeat nonsense - as always.
>
>> >>         Any time you think you are ready.
>> 
>> >Ready to rehash old material yet again?!? Hardly!
>> 
>>         Thank you for agreeing they were not describing cyanide poisoning.
>>I will be enjoy posting your agreement.
>
>I would suggest that such a misquote would be the same as lying and a
>challenge to disprove your contention yet again. 
>
>Not a good idea, Matt.

    Alger Hiss never admitted he was guilty, either, despite even more
evidence recently uncovered that he was.

    Matt is a repeated liar who even slipped and admitted it once.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    But he must continue to pile new lies on top of his old ones, since he
cannot admit that he lost.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56803 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'm not a revisionist but here's a thought
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 12 Aug 1996 02:48:04 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 142
Message-ID: <4umk34$gna@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u57d7$a9d@nntp.igs.net> <4ueup7$drk@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ug354$mc5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4uhfts$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uhfts$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 9 Aug 1996 19:22:12 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
>anderson) wrote:
>
>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>>: 	I use the term to everyone who, like a creationist, appears otherwise
>>: sane but has a total belief in gassing without the slighest bit of
>>: physical evidence.
>>: 
>>: 	But you know that, holohugger.    
>
>
>
>>CREATIONISTS:			HOLOCAUST DENIERS:
>
>>Have little or no support	Have little or no support
>>among scientists.		among historians.
>
>	Historians involved in the holocaust are exceedingly rare as the
>penalties for publishing anything contrary to the existing mythology
>are quite severe.  
>
>	Scientists, however, rely upon physical evidence while holohuggers
>have none,

    Cyanide traces in the Kremas.  Physical evidence.

    A letter mentioning a "Vergasungskeller."  Physical evidence.

    An order for a gas-tight door for LK1.  Physical evidence.

    A gas-tight door with the metal grille on the _inside_ of the
peephole.  Physical evidence.

    An inventory sheet mentioning "wire-mesh introduction devices"
described by other witnesses.  Physical evidence.

    Metal grilles from the air intake system with cyanide compounds.
Physical evidence.

    Letters from Just to Rauff and Becker to Rauff about the gassing vans.
Physical evidence.  Rauff gave a deposition in Chile in which he confirmed
receiving such a letter from Becker.  Physical evidence.

    

>only testimony such as the man who was gassed six times and
>lived to tell about it.  Gasse six time, creation in six days, not
>much difference.    
>
>>Present no evidence to		Present no evidence to
>>support their position.		support their position.
>
>	They merely point to the lack of evidence for gassing.  

    No, they merely lie and say "no evidence" when physical evidence (such
as a "Vergasungskeller" letter) exist.


>>Rely entirely on picking	Rely entirely on picking
>>tiny holes around the		tiny holes around the 
>>fringes of the theory		fringes of the accepted
>>of evolution.			account of the Holocaust.
>
>	Rather they attack the heart of the gassing stories, the complete and
>total lack of evidence for it.

    Repeating a lie does not make it true.  Perhaps Mr. Giwer would care
to address the physical evidence listed above for the first time.
Honestly, that is.


>>Must postulate a huge		Must postulate a huge
>>conspiracy, directed		conspiracy, directed 
>>by humanists, to account	by Zionists, to account
>>for their refutation of		for their refutation of 
>>evolution being covered		the Holocaust being covered
>>up for so long.			up for so long.
>
>	Not really.  Simple stupidity will explain it all.  

    OK, maybe Mr. Giwer is simply stupid.


>>Once read a book by Duanne	Once read a book by Bradley
>>Gish, and are now convinced	Smith, and are now convinced
>>they know the Truth which	they know the Truth which 
>>has eluded everybody who's	has eluded everybody who's
>>given serious study to the	given serious study to the
>>issue. 				issue.
>
>	Never read such a book in my life.  It was obvious there was something
>wrong when I discovered ZB was cyanide.  The witness descriptions
>simply do not match cyanide.  

    Mr. Giwer has yet to explain how, taking all relevant factors into
account and giving documentation to back up his claims of what should and
shouldn't happen.


>>Aren't above lying and 		Aren't above lying and
>>distorting the words of 	distorting the words of 
>>scientists in order to 		opponents in order to 
>>support their Higher Truth.	support their Higher Truth.
>
>	Rather it is more interesting that holohuggers are so willing to
>believe all the contradictory and impossible things that are known
>about their holocaust.  
>
>>You make the call, Matt.  From here, it looks like the only difference
>>is that creationists are basically well-intentioned crackpots, while
>>Holocaust deniers are actively engaged in polishing up the memory of
>>one of the greatest mass murders in history, and spitting on the graves
>>of twelve million human beings.
>
>	If you ever get the story straight about those who are laughing at the
>idiocy of burning people without fuel and the like you might be able
>to create an honest comparison.  In the mean time, your pointing out
>the lack of physical evidence is quite a good thing.  
>
>	Remember the time we were over the actual layouts of LK I and II and
>we discovered that not one "witness" ever described the buildings?

    Really?  Matt simply asserts this.  Just as he asserted not one victim
of the X-ray sterilization experiments was found.  Funny how one of them
testified at Brack's trial.


>All you folks have going for you is long after the fact speculation.  

    All Matt Giwer has going for him is his willingness to lie again and
again.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:39 PDT 1996
Article: 56805 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Giwer: promoter of lies
Date: 8 Aug 1996 15:56:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4udgpf$jrp@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56805 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:444

In article <4ubde4$1i4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 7 Aug 1996 11:53:53 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4u9oam$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:

[snip]

>>>	I presume they had a great chuckle over McVay's "complaint."
>
>>    Does the fact that a Justice Department attorney was in my home
>>recently asking me about you change your presumption any?
>
>	It was the FBI last time you told the story.  

    I have no idea what you are talking about; I said nothing about my
having spoken to the FBI.  Your memory once again is playing tricks on
you, or perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

    Or maybe you are working on making an insanity plea convincing?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56832 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter?  Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: 12 Aug 1996 02:29:39 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4umj0j$gc8@access5.digex.net>
References: <320D8A7C.6C7D@kaiwan.com> <4ul4at$qm0@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4umbc7$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4umbc7$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	The problem with the first Kracow report is that it did not contain a
>control sample.  Thus the need for a second study.  There is every
>reason to assume, given the disease in the camps, that every building,
>particularly a morgue, was fumigated heavily.  (Keeping in mind that
>it would work just as well on rats.)  

    The only problem with this theory is that there were two underground
rooms in Kremas II and III which were called Leichenkellers (morgues). 
Yet only one of those rooms in each building was fitted with a gas-tight
door.  Therefore the bodies in the other room could not be fumigated and
rats would be able to eat to their hearts' content. 


    Actually, I take that back.  It is not the only problem with this
theory.  The other problem is that confessed liar Matt Giwer once again
has no evidence to support it, not even eyewitness testimony.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    Still waiting for Matt to figure out the very simple and quite legal
way he can get me to stop posting the URLs pointing out his documented
record of lies.  Posting irrelevant stuff from the IMT is not the answer. 
And no, it is not even leaving the newsgroup.  I would have thought
someone as smart as he thinks he is would have figured it out long ago.
But of course he is not half as smart as he thinks he is.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:41 PDT 1996
Article: 56836 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 12 Aug 1996 01:09:50 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4umeau$eac@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4uf057$it1@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <4uh6jj$3bg@dfw-ixnews10.ix.net <4ujmnd$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2544 alt.revisionism:56836 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:445

In article <4ujmnd$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 10 Aug 1996 05:27:15 GMT, fische11@ix.netcom.com(some bizzare guy
>on the internet) wrote:
>
>>We did firestorm Berlin, guys.  It worked better in Japan, with all the
>>rice and huts of the time.  There it killed more people than both
>>A-bombs combined.
>
>	But the holohuggers will refuse to look at the burned cities and other
>physical evidence

    There is evidence of a fire.  Where is your physical evidence that
bombs started the fire?  Nowhere, of course. 


> and insist that the eyewitnesses not report anything
>contradictory.

    But that is a Giwer rule.  Anything contradictory in an eyewitness
testimony, or any difference in perception between two eyewitnesses, or
anything which is ambiguous and can be interpreted as contradictory,
invalidates that eyewitness and all other eyewitnesses.


>	They are quite disturbed by their lack of physical evidence. 

    Mr. Giwer is quite disturbed.

    Also a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:41 PDT 1996
Article: 56839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'm not a revisionist but here's a thought
Date: 12 Aug 1996 02:56:50 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4umkji$gr5@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u57d7$a9d@nntp.igs.net> <4uhfts$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320df986.10138551@news.inetport.com> <4ulab7$p2k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ulab7$p2k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:30:57 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
>wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

[snip]

>	Be the first to post the physical evidence.  

    Do you want the list I have posted more than once emailed to you,
confessed liar?


[snip]

>>>	Rather they attack the heart of the gassing stories, the complete and
>>>total lack of evidence for it.  
>
>>Because this self proclaimed genius says so!!!
>
>	Who better?  

    About any random name in the phone book.

[snip]

>	But there are attorneys who swear testimony is physical evidence on
>this conference.

    This is an outright lie.  Nobody here ever said that testimony was
physical evidence.  Rather, Matt Giwer lied and said that testimony was
not any kind of evidence.


>If you believe them, that is your problem.  

    If anyone believes the unsupported assertions of the confessed liar
Matt Giwer, that is their problem.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html



>>>	Remember the time we were over the actual layouts of LK I and II and
>>>we discovered that not one "witness" ever described the buildings?
>>>All you folks have going for you is long after the fact speculation.  
>>>
>
>>Because he says so! Amazing. I give him a week and he's killfiled
>>again. It's the same old nonsense warmed over!
>
>	Because that is the way it is.  

    Mr. Giwer is a liar.

    That's the way it is.  Unlike Mr. Giwer, I post the documentation.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 12 18:20:35 PDT 1996
Article: 56952 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: 11 Aug 1996 12:37:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4ul27t$m64@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uesdm$lfe@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uh942$cn9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uh942$cn9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	What I have been pointing out is that the descriptions of deaths from
>ZB do not match the reality of such deaths.  

    Mr. Giwer has asserted this over and over again, without ever giving a
source of his information about the "reality" of such deaths, or any
indication that he understands the effects of dosage, temperature, and
distance from the release point of the Zyklon.

    Mr. Giwer is also a liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 13 08:05:40 PDT 1996
Article: 57034 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!visi.com!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!zdc-e!zdc!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: History for mental midgets
Date: 13 Aug 1996 00:55:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4up1rl$9lg@access5.digex.net>
References: <4umib7$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4umib7$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Those who forget history are duomed to repeat it.

    Had Giwer the mental midget gone to a school with any standards at
all, he would have repeated history many, many times.  He often cannot
even get the history of a past week's discussion right, as experience has
shown.  Of course we all remember his amusing idiocy in identifying a
number of Revolutionary War battles as having taken place during the War
of 1812.

    If they allowed him to pass with the kind of performance he is turning
in here, then Mr. Giwer went to schools with no academic standards at all. 

    Nor ethical ones. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 13 08:05:41 PDT 1996
Article: 57076 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren, the latter day Einstein
Date: 13 Aug 1996 00:36:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4up0oe$97o@access5.digex.net>
References: <4umujo$94q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4umujo$94q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	refuses to apply his great math talents explaining the eyewitness
>reports of death by HCN in 10-15 minutes and by CO in 15-20 minutes.
>
>	Why does he refuse to do this?  


    It is not primarily a mathematical issue.

    I have said before that I'll happily spend two hours in a large
warehouse with one pea-sized Zyklon pellet if Mr. Giwer will agree to
spend fifteen minutes in a chamber with a 6% CO atmosphere after I emerge
unharmed. 

    Why does he refuse to do this?

    Because he knows quite well what would happen.  I have also explained
the other dishonesties in his argument before.

    But Mr. Giwer is of course a lying troll.  Self-confessed, even.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 14 20:43:12 PDT 1996
Article: 57390 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust revisionism
Supersedes: <4utii7$fea@access5.digex.net>
Date: 14 Aug 1996 19:08:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4utm92$hol@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <320E285D.156C@unb.ca> <4umltl$rtl@sjx-i <4ur1cn$34b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ur1cn$34b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:36:58 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> The reason is that you are at least honest in professional matters, as
>>> is AG.

    Matt Giwer, on the other hand, is dishonest in all matters.  He even
admitted it.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>>> He, on the other hand, drops a subject when he would have to
>>> admit the facts are against holohuggers.
>
>>Prove it, Matt!
>
>>So far the only person dropping a subject - or trying to - is you when
>>you lose.

    The subject of X-ray sterilization experiments is one fine example.
Matt claimed no physical evidence was found - ignoring the fact that the
letters mentioning them are physical evidence in and of themselves.  Of
course, one of the victims of the experiments testified against Brack at
his trial.  Matt's claim that there was no physical evidence was either a
deliberate lie or made with absolutely no regard for the truth.

    In either case, Matt was completely and utterly dishonest.  When
presented with the evidence, of course, he did not admit his error.  He
simply dropped the subject.


>	The issue is that the descriptions of gassing do not match the facts
>of gassing.

    Do something novel.  Back up your loud mouth with actual citations
about what the facts of gassing are.  And while you are at it, deal
_honestly_ with the descriptions of gassing, including in your evaluation
the fact that many aspects were _estimated_ by the witnesses, occurred
under varying conditions, and were made by untrained observers.


>	Are you ready to discussion Hoesse's personal observation that when
>the pellets were thrown in the people died instantly?

    Are you ready to discuss the bbvious point that Hoess did not actually
enter the chamber with a stethoscope and EEG to check them out?  Hoess was
not a doctor.  They fell to the floor.  Dead, right?

>	Are you ready to discussion the gelatinous masses of flesh and
>clothing in another description?  

    Are you ready to admit that the description was not by an eyewitness?


>	You have been remarkablly silent in explaining these differences.  

    You have been remarkably silent in dealing with my previous responses.

>>>         You appear to be willing to procede to the bitter end in your claims.
>>> 
>>>         This is all a show for the lurkers.
>>> 
>>>         If you had dropped it, they would not be reading your continued
>>> attempts to revive a failed issue by continuing this exchange.
>
>>Ayup! It's a failed issue - because he won the argument.  
>
>	In other words, as an engineer, you are agreeing with him that fluid
>flow speed at the boundary is the same as in the center.  The only way
>you can declare he has "won" is by agreeing with that.

    Where did he claim this?  Post the quote with article ID, subject, and
date.


>>GROW UP, MATT!
>
>	Do a better service to your professional knowledge than what you are.
>
>
>>> 
>>>         Why do you to it?
>
>>Because he's winning.
>
>	With false claims about fluid flow?  

    Show how his claims were false with an actual quote, in context.

    Perhaps you would also like to discuss your many false claims,
starting with the one about no physical evidence of X-ray sterilization
experiments?  Then we can move on to

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    Poor Matt.  Caught lying through his teeth, all he can do is pile on
more lies and hope that nobody notices.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug 15 07:50:27 PDT 1996
Article: 57482 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter?  Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: 14 Aug 1996 19:31:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4utnl9$iqi@access5.digex.net>
References: <320D8A7C.6C7D@kaiwan.com> <4umbc7$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4umj0j$gc8@access5.digex.net> <4us7ma$gfb@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4us7ma$gfb@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 12 Aug 1996 02:29:39 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4umbc7$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>	The problem with the first Kracow report is that it did not contain a
>>>control sample.  Thus the need for a second study.  There is every
>>>reason to assume, given the disease in the camps, that every building,
>>>particularly a morgue, was fumigated heavily.  (Keeping in mind that
>>>it would work just as well on rats.)  
>
>>    The only problem with this theory is that there were two underground
>>rooms in Kremas II and III which were called Leichenkellers (morgues). 
>>Yet only one of those rooms in each building was fitted with a gas-tight
>>door.  Therefore the bodies in the other room could not be fumigated and
>>rats would be able to eat to their hearts' content. 
>
>	There is no evidence o separate fumigation.

    Precisely my point.


>	If you are truly claiming there was a room within the LK that was the
>one used, that were were partitions within it, then you have created a
>new order of impossible much like finding orders of infinity.  They
>were impossible enough numbers when the entire LK was used for
>gassing.  But your claim has produced and "aleph sub 1" order of
>impossibility.  
>
>	And the amazing thing is that you are not bright enough to know what
>you have done.  

    It is no longer amazing that you once again exhibited reading
comprehension which would be an embarrassment to the average sixth grader.

    Two separate rooms, not a partition.  Morgue 1 (the gas chamber)  and
Morgue 2 (the undressing room).  Look at the plans some century.

    Did I not say that you have yet to understand what buildings had what
features?

    Clearly you are not bright enough to understand any of this.

>>Actually, I take that back.  It is not the only problem with this
>>theory.  The other problem is that confessed liar Matt Giwer once again
>>has no evidence to support it, not even eyewitness testimony.
>>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>
>>Still waiting for Matt to figure out the very simple and quite legal
>>way he can get me to stop posting the URLs pointing out his documented
>>record of lies. [...]
>
> Legal way?  You mean that I should point to a law that prohibits
>Nizkor volunteers from conspiring to violate my copyright to what I
>post?

    Nizkor carries Usenet news.  You consented to have your articles on
Nizkor disk when you posted them.  Article expiration policies are set by
the server administrator.  If you knew anything about the 'net you would
know this.  But of course you are just as ignorant about this as you are
of so many other things.

    By "legal way" I merely meant something other than violence,
extortion, etc.  There is a very simple procedure you can follow which
will get me to voluntarily stop my practice of referring to your
confession of lying and your catalogue of lies.  Have you figured out what
it is yet?


>	Or do you hold that a copyright does not exist from the moment of
>creation?  Are you aware of what copyright means?

    Better than you, silly person who cannot tell the difference between
trademark and copyright.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug 15 13:37:45 PDT 1996
Article: 57534 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 14 Aug 1996 18:21:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4utjhr$g34@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <320E28F2.71F2@unb.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ur24j$34b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:39:54 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
>Alstine) wrote:
>>This, obviously, means that the pulverized bone fragments, being sifted in
>>these seives, were 2/5 of an inch or _less_ in size.
>
>>The Troll has been told this many, many times but appears to be unable to
>>understand the concept of how sieves work due to being severely mentally
>>dysfunctional. (And an emottionally dysfunctional, and a socially
>>dysfunctional, and....) 
>
>	And of course I have said the size would be from 1cm down to about 1/2
>cm with a small amount of the mass smaller than that.  You apparently
>are unable to comprehend that.  

    You apparently are unable to explain why other than Because!  I!  Say!
So!


>	Try it real slow.  The bones are crushed and put through the sieve.
>What is caught in the sieve is crushed again.  

    Try it even slower.  What crushes the bones determines the average
size, not the sieve, fool.  The sieve only makes sure anything that the
crusher missed gets crushed again.


>	Perhaps some day you will learn there is no need to grind after the
>pieces are roughly the size desired.  Or perhaps you have never ground
>anything, never even used a blender.

    So tell me how a blender knows what size sieve its product is going to
be put through.  It will grind to the average size it grinds given the
time of grinding regardless of what sieve you use.  However, a much larger
than average piece or three may still exist after the grinding.  If you
want to regrind such pieces to guarantee a maximum particle size, use the
sieve.

    Perhaps some day you will learn to think.  But given that you have had
fifty-one years now and still fail miserably, I see little hope.


>	Or perhaps you believe in the misrepresentations of our local river
>expert.  

    Perhaps you believe people do not realize you are a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Aug 16 07:52:15 PDT 1996
Article: 57650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter? Again?
Date: 15 Aug 1996 15:01:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4uvs75$mq2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uultt$hhf@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uultt$hhf@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>The levels of cyanide found in the bunker would be consistent with ordinary 
>delousing with zyklon B.

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!

    Delousing takes more time than homicide.


>The  very fact that corpses were brought there after succombing to typhus
>would necessitate frequent delousings. 

    How frequently do you think delousing took place, and on what evidence
do you base your claim?


> The allegation that zyklon is water soluable and will fade when exposed
> to the elements is unfounded, in my opinion. 

    And on what do you base your oh-so-expert opinion?


>One has merely to inspect the bricks on the other buildings which were
>frequently exposed to both zyklon B and the elements, and the staining
>is more deep and brilliant, if anything.

    That is only one cyanide compound, known as prussian blue.  There are
other cyanide compounds which are far less stable.  For a discussion of
why delousing is expected to produce more prussian blue, see
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/cyanide.002.


>The presence of cyanide  in the grills is hardly conclusive of gassing
>for homicidal purposes...that should go without saying.

    Red herring.  Nobody claimed it was.  First, it is a refutation of
Leuchter's claim that cyanide could not possibly be used in the Kremas due
to terribly long ventilation times and the danger of explosion.  It shows
Leuchter is a fraud who was talking about matters he was completely
unqualified to discuss.

    Second, it is physical evidence that cyanide was indeed used in the
Kremas, confirming at least that much about the testimony of witnesses. 
The key concept is "convergence of evidence."  Please see Dr. Michael
Shermer's article in _Skeptic_, Vol. 2, No. 4, June, 1994.  It can be
found at: 

    http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/american/skeptic.magazine/skeptic.1
through .15.

    The weakness of the "revisionist" position is that it must try to
explain away each piece of evidence as _possibly_ being something else. 
But it fails to come up with a consistent, evidence-based alternative
theory which provides at least as good an explanation of the existing
evidence _as a whole_.


>The  remark that the elements, etc., lead to a diminishing of the
>distinctive blueing is contradicted by inspecting other facilities which
>were also frequently exposed to Zyklon and the elements over the last 50
>years.  The blue staining is more brilliant, probably due to the
>exposure of these elements to the great amounts of pollutants in the 
>atmosphere.

    Please refer to the cyanide.002 URL.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Aug 16 07:52:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57654 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.thenet.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: to the anti-gassing lurkers
Date: 15 Aug 1996 15:22:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4uvtdo$o67@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uusoe$7is@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uusoe$7is@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	The holohuggers are under control.  
>
>	Of course if you post they are going to attack you. 
                         ^^^^

    You misspelled "lie."  You're welcome.


>	You need not do more than post your opinion.

    You do not need to post at all, for that matter.  However, if you do
simply post your opinion, people will not be shy about pointing out that
you have no evidence to back it up.  I try to do it politely, but I will
do it.


>	If you feel uncomfortable doing that email me and I will put you in
>touch with many people who will email you sympathetically.  You are
>not alone.  I even have some mailing lists that I can put you on.  
>
>	Despite the massive crap you see here,

    The confessed liar Matt Giwer has indeed posted massive crap.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>there is another side of it
>that does not attack a politically incorrect position on the matter.  
>
>	There are many of is.

    Many "Is?"  Multiple personality disorder?  This would be one way of
explaining Mr. Giwer's penchant for saying something and then denying that
he ever said it.  For example:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/s/stein-michael/lie-30000-kcal.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Aug 16 07:52:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57723 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 14 Aug 1996 17:38:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4uth14$eg0@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4ujfcl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4ul652$nsa@access5.digex.net> <4umks7$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4umks7$rtl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 11 Aug 1996 13:44:02 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ujfcl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>	You really do need to catch up on the conference material.  That is
>>>one of many I and others have posted.  For example eyewitnesses have
>>>conclusively proven that HCN and CO are on the same order of
>>>lethality.  
>
>>    This is a lie which I have already dealt with.  Matt took the highest
>>ESTIMATE he could find for a cyanide gassing and a case where too little
>>was used, or used in an area with poor circulation and sealing, and
>>compared it to the lowest ESTIMATE he could find for CO gassing, and
>>ignored all considerations of dosage, temperature, room size and
>>circulation, etc.
>
>	Anyone who has followed this NG knows I have referred to the most
>common (modal) reports, not the extremes.

    How many data points, confessed liar?

    Please list their URLs.


>It is obvous you have not followed this conference.

    It is obvious you are a liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Aug 16 11:12:20 PDT 1996
Article: 57730 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!venus.sun.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Creationist/exterminationist similarities
Date: 15 Aug 1996 15:39:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4uvue9$ovv@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ueha9$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <3210D161.7157@gryn.org> <4uutdc$7is@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <32135CDD.4529@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32135CDD.4529@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:02:57 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> >>Sorry, nerfbrain, I have forgotten more about this than any riverine
>> >> fluid flow "expert" will ever know.  Give it up.  You have not the
>> >> slighest idea what is going on in the first place.
>> 
>> >Matt, so far you've shown that you know less than can be written on the
>> >back of a postage stamp.
>> 
>> >In War Caps!
>> 
>> >Grow up!
>> 
>>         You are degenerating as you post.  Why?
>
>?!?
>
>I'm not the one refusing to provide responses.
>
>You are.
>
>All you do is flame and insult when you don't know.
>
>Had you any REAL knowledge of the subject you would have responded with
>it - including the necessary formulae and values.

    Oh, gosh.  We're still waiting for him to give the energy figures for
cremation which he claimed to know how to compute.  There's also the
figures for the difference in flow rate between the center and edges of a
river, the figures for cyanide condensation, and many other things about
which he claimed It! Is! True! Because! I! Say! So!, but not once gave a
reference or a computation.


>You don't.
>
>Just handwaving.

    At the same time as he accuses other people of doing so, of course.

>Grow up!!

    It would also be nice if he learned how to read.  I still remember the
time he was asked to back up a claim that witnesses said the screaming
went on for "tens of minutes" when Zyklon was dumped in.  In response he
provided a testimony which said "after a few minutes there was silence."

    Not lying anymore would also be nice....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Aug 16 13:30:59 PDT 1996
Article: 57760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Black Knight Yields To No Man!
Date: 15 Aug 1996 15:13:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4uvssf$nj3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uuu8t$7is@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uuu8t$7is@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	In the last three months the truth seekers (aka revionsits)

    Truth seeker?  The confessed liar Matt Giwer claims to be a truth
seeker?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    Ah, Matt is such a kidder.


>have
>beaten the crap out of the holohuggers.  The strange thing is that the
>holohuggers have not realized they have died in the process in defense
>of thos position.  

    So speaks The Black Knight.  After all his lies and errors have been
exposed, and he has been left without even a leg to stand on and his arms
have been cut off, he is too stupid even to ask to call it a draw. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:00 PDT 1996
Article: 58031 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.be.innet.net!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 17 Aug 1996 22:44:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <4v602e$lkj@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4uufgb$3el@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32147894.70777822@news.zilker.net> <4v3s5h$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83129 alt.revisionism:58031

In article <4v3s5h$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:34:28 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>wrote:
>>>	Try it this way.  His manual, very like the gassing witnesses, says
>>>that anything a bullet strikes will disappear.  
>>>
>
>>It does? It says something will actually disappear? Nothing left? You
>>have his manual? Oh, you're lying again. I see.
>
>	It is called an analogy, child.  Gas someone and every bit of physical
>evidence disappears.  

    Bad analogy, then.

    The bodies themselves were made to disappear.  Ample documentation of
the crematoria and the ovens used to burn the bodies exist -
correspondence between Topf u. Sohne and the SS, bills, orders, etc.  This
documentation is physical evidence.

    And of course there is the physical evidence Matt has been presented
but pretends not to have seen.

    Cyanide traces in the Kremas.  He has yet to give an honest response
to the flaws I pointed out in his claim that this was from fumigation.
(He has yet to understand that there were two different underground rooms
in Krema II, and that both were called "morgues" on the construction
drawings, but only one could be fumigated.)

    A letter from Bischoff to Kammler talking about a "gassing cellar."

    A letter from Becker to Rauff about gassing vans, confirmed by Rauff
in a deposition he gave in Chile.

    A gas-tight door with the inside protected by a wire-mesh grille.  (In
order to protect people inside a bomb shelter from glass splinters, it
would make more sense to use a solid plate on a swivel.)

    An inventory sheet listing showerheads in a room whose construction
drawings show no plumbing for showers.  (Matt has consistently
misrepresented this point - it is not the lack of physical plumbing which
is significant, but the lack of _plans_ for that plumbing even on drawings
which show the other plumbing in the room.)  This physical evidence
corroborates the eyewitness testimony of dummy showers.


>>>	As for the will to so something, the descriptions of what was supposed
>>>to have happened does not match any but the grossest descriptions.  
>>>
>
>>Of course they do.
>
>	Not that anyone here has been able to demonstrate.  The best you folks
>can do is what you just did.  Claim that they do or that it has been
>demonstrated but never being able to produce the evidence of if.  

    The best Matt Giwer can do is lie.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:01 PDT 1996
Article: 58051 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 17 Aug 1996 22:29:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4v5v5o$koh@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <320fbf8e.1238523@news.inetport.com> <8d7cc$924e.3e0@news.comet.net> <4uufn3$3el@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83140 alt.revisionism:58051

In article <4uufn3$3el@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Want to address the gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing that HCN
>causes in your reality?  

    Want to address the fact that no witness ever said this, confessed
liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:02 PDT 1996
Article: 58064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews Run Everything
Date: 18 Aug 1996 07:04:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4v6tcp$26k@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uutoa$fab@news.ios.com> <4uvjec$pg5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Daniel Keren  wrote:
>kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
># Ira  wrote:
>
>## Hil\tler was an ass who got his ass kicked. We Jews run 
>## everything,because you goyim are to fucking stupid too. God
>## chose us as his people and the rest as beasts. 
>
>Can someone checks this? Is there really such a domain
>as "Israel.com", or this another nazi-boy pretending to
>be a Jew? We've seen this before.

    It is indeed a forgery.  The message ID points to ios.com, source of
many such forgeries, and the same posting host used by Aardvark, who is (I
believe)  one of the H*ber gang. 


># it's always refreshing on those rare occasions when a Jew
># drops his mask and reveal his true outlook and feelings.  

    And when it doesn't happen, the Jew-haters forge posts to try to fool
the gullible.  Unfortunately, it's mostly their own kind they fool, like
Kurt here. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 58078 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews Run Everything
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 18 Aug 1996 08:04:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <4v70s0$2p2@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v336r$423@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>>>Ira  wrote:
>
>>>Hil\tler was an ass who got his ass kicked. We Jews run
>>>everything,because you goyim are to fucking stupid too. God
>>>chose us as his people and the rest as beasts.
>
>Alec Grynspan 1:2424/13 wrote:
>
>>Can someone checks this? Is there really such a domain
>>as "Israel.com", or this another nazi-boy pretending to
>>be a Jew? We've seen this before.
>>
>>Another Nazi-boy pretending to be a Jew.
>>
>>It's bogus.
>>
>
>yeah?  well prove it then

    Easily.  Israel.com does exist, but is in Los Angeles.  (Do 'whois
israel.com.)  The NNTP posting host was an idt.net machine in New York,
and the message ID was from ios.com.  Many forgeries have originated from
that source.


>Why should anyone think Mr. Ira  is "another nazi-boy
>pretending to be a jew" instead of an -actual- jew?

    The NNTP posting host and message ID.


>All Mr. Epstein is doing is just spouting the essence of the Jewish
>religion as clearly outlined in both the Talmud and Old Testament:
>
>"The Jews are the master race, and the goyim are dogs."

    All you are doing is spouting the essence of your poisoned soul.  I
don't suppose you can find a reference for that quote above?  I thought
not.


>This attitude should be apparent to anyone what the slightest knowledge of
>jewish hypocrisy:
>
>1)  "We want to mix -your- race, but keep -ours- separate."

    Sorry to prick your balloon, but the hot air really does need to
escape.  In my synagogue are several blacks and a woman who is Chinese. 
Judaism is a religion which _happens_ to be practiced overwhelmingly by
members of one ethnic group, but anyone can convert.  (Well, not _anyone_,
but I don't think there are any Moabites left.) 


>2)  "We want to racially integrate and diversify -your- nation and race,
>but keep -our- Israeli borders inviolable."

    How do you explain the fact that one of the most Orthodox,
Talmud-hugging groups of Jews, the Neturei Karta, is opposed to the
existence of the state of Israel?  There are in fact non-Zionist Jews.  I
do not consider myself a Zionist, though I am not anti-Israel the way the
NK are.


>3)   "We denounce the Holo(hoax) but we continue to brutalize Palestinian
>men, women, and children."

    That the Israeli government has been brutal I do not deny.  But many
Jews (including myself) are opposed to such policies.  You hold all Jews
responsible for the actions of some.  Should I hold all Germans
responsible for the actions of some?


>Well, I for one think Mr. Ira  is a jew.

    Only because you don't think.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 58107 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just Another Lie from Giwer
Date: 18 Aug 1996 11:28:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4v7cqk$6vh@access5.digex.net>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Mark Van Alstine  wrote:
>There is a whole chapter in _Anantomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_
>entitled "Diaries of the Sonderkommando" which talks about the six diaries
>and some notes written by three members of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando.

    I have to say that _I_ find some of the stuff to be dubious due to the
florid literary style.  I can believe that an SK member might have
literary talent, I can believe that one or two victims might be polished
speakers.  But on a statistical basis, I can't believe that _so many_
people who talked to him would deliver such flowery quotes.  At a dead
minimum I think at least one diary writer "improved" the dialogue if not
inventing it outright. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:04 PDT 1996
Article: 58119 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Which Jew bankers run the Fed. Res.?
Date: 18 Aug 1996 11:53:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4v7e9b$7k5@access5.digex.net>
References: <840133259snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4v38j8$6b9@news.enter.net> <840320506snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <840320506snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>,
Alexander Baron   wrote:
>In article <4v38j8$6b9@news.enter.net> yawen@enter.net "Yale F. Edeiken" writes:
>
>> >   Alexander Baron  writes:
>> 
>> >  > My research indicates that the following Jew bankers rub the Federal 
>> Reserve 
>> >  > and also are the main beneficiaries of the National Debt:
>> >  > 
>> >  > Rothchild                                London & Berlin
>> >  > Warburg                                 Germany
>> >  > Lazar Bros.                            Paris
>> >  > Israel Moses                          Italy
>> >  > Loeb                                       New York
>> >  > Lehman Bros.                        New York
>> >  > Rockefeller (Chase Man.)      New York
>>   
>
>You're a lying piece of filth Yale, you have forged this posting. I did 
>not say "My research indicates that the following Jew bankers rub the Federal 
> Reserve",

    You are correct that you did not say that, but Yale did not forge
anything.  Rather, he simply screwed up the attributions.  The person
claiming the research was Pottolah; you wrote a paragraph in response to
Pottolah which was contained in Yale's post but cut from your reply to 
Yale's post.

    There was a stray '>' in front of the first line, but Pottolah's
message ID was missing from the references line and 'Pottolah wrote' was
missing.  Yale uses SPRYnet, and it seems to be difficult - Jbelling has
had even worse problems getting his articles to thread correctly.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:05 PDT 1996
Article: 58175 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer Alzheimer's evidence bears interest
Date: 18 Aug 1996 23:47:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <4v8o3p$d3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4v061p$rqp@hil-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> <4v18tm$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v18tm$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:20:54 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
>Bilik) wrote:
>>Cyanide is useful in fumigating morgues ? why ? it is useless against
>>anaerobic bacteriums, the main problem encountered in a morgue. It
>>could perhaps kill lice, but lice leaves the corpses soon after the
>>death. Since lice aren't very quick, a nozzle of water and they are
>>gone. If you're worried to find disinfectants for a morgue, they were
>>more cheaper, and less hazardous to use than cyanide.
>
>	Did you ever hear of rats?  Flys?  Maggots?  Or are not they looking
>for a free lunch?  

    Then why was only one of the two supposed morgues in Krema II (and one
of the two supposed morgues in its twin, Krema III) fitted with a
gas-tight door?  Leichenkeller 2 had some magic protection?

    Oh, I forgot.  You still haven't figured out how many underground
rooms there were, what they were called, and what building they were
located in.  It's not like you've had eight months to figure this out or
anything.


>>Some questions: what could be the use of a sealed door and especially
>>of a judas hole in the door of a morgue ? 
>
>	So it can double as a bomb shelter.

    I've got a document calling it a "gassing cellar."  What documents
have you got calling it a bomb shelter?  None, of course.

    I've got a document listing "wire-mesh introduction devices with
wooden covers."  What purpose do those serve in a bomb shelter?  None, of
course.  But witnesses described how they were used in gassing.


>and why did the Germans
>>study (and ever command a heating system) for these morgues ?
>
>	You are the first to claim this.  No matter what evidence you provide
>(none is expected of course) the implications will be quite
>interesting.  

    Unbelievable.  Once again, Matt Giwer takes his abysmal ignorance as
superior knowledge.  Except that it's hard to figure out how he can say
this, given that he should be familiar with the following:

   "Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Jahrling to Topf & Sons,
   March 6 1943

   Subject: KL Auschwitz Krematorien II and III

   In accordance with your suggestion, the service agrees that cellar 1
   should be preheated with the air coming from the rooms of the 3
   forced draught installations. The supply and installation of the
   ductwork and blowers necessary to this end are to be effected as soon
   as possible. As you point out in your above-mentioned letter,
   execution should commence this week. We would ask you to send in
   triplicate detailed quote for supply and installation.


    This is from the Leuchter FAQ.

   Linkname: The Leuchter Report: The "Extermination" Chambers Were
          Actually Morgues
        URL: http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-07.html

    It has been on Nizkor for years.

    It has been posted monthly to the newsgroup.

    And Matt Giwer says Dr. Bilik is the first to make the claim?


    GET HELP FOR THAT ALZHEIMER'S, MATT!
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:06 PDT 1996
Article: 58216 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter?  Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: 18 Aug 1996 16:03:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <4v7sus$dq1@access5.digex.net>
References: <5b3_9608152247@tor250.org> <4v3tm3$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v3tm3$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 15 Aug 96 07:16:50, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>><*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer 
>><+[Re: Leuchter?  Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]] [Wed 14 Aug 96
>>05:50][Thu 15 Aug 96 01:33][0]*>
>
>
>> >> The only problem with this theory is that there were two
>> >> underground rooms in Kremas II and III which were called
>> >> Leichenkellers (morgues). Yet only one of those rooms in each
>> >> building was fitted with a gas-tight door.  Therefore the
>> >> bodies in the other room could not be fumigated and rats would
>> >> be able to eat to their hearts' content.
>
>> MG>   There is no evidence o separate fumigation.
>
>> MG>   If you are truly claiming there was a room within the LK that
>> MG> was the one used, that were were partitions within it, then you
>> MG> have created a new order of impossible much like finding orders
>> MG> of infinity.  They were impossible enough numbers when the
>> MG> entire LK was used for gassing.  But your claim has produced and
>> MG> "aleph sub 1" order of impossibility.
>
>>Egads but you're not reading, Matt.
>
>>1. That there were 2 rooms is obvious.
>
>	For months now the discussion has been of a one large room with four
>inner support columns and a single door to the outside that was "gas
>tight."

    That is the gas chamber of Krema II (and its twin, Krema III).


>Why the sudden change?  This went all through the discussion
>regarding it having more characteristics of a bomb shelter than a gas
>chamber.  
>
>	Now, out of no where and for no reason, a different description is
>being brought up.

    No.  We are merely discussing the _other_ underground room in Krema II
(and its twin, Krema III), the undressing room.


>Can you folks ever get your straight among
>yourselves before you go public?  

    The only problem is your lack of reading comprehension.


    Let me dumb this down for you.  We are talking about two buildings,
Kremas II and III, which were built to the same basic plan.  The two rooms
described below occurred in BOTH of these two buildings.  In other words,
there was a Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II.  There was a Leichenkeller 2 of
Krema II.  There was a Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III.  There was a
Leichenkeller 2 of Krema III.

    Do you finally understand this?  (I will not confuse your tiny brain
with a discussion of Kremas IV and V, which were built to different
plans.)

Room name on plans      Name(s) in documents    Actual use
Leichenkeller 1         Vergasungskeller	Homicidal gassing
    (corpse cellar 1)       (gassing cellar)
                        Sonderkeller
                            (special cellar)

Leichenkeller 2         Undressing room         Victims undressed here
    (corpse cellar 2)


    "Corpse cellar," in turn, can be translated as "morgue."  I'm not
going too fast for you, am I?


    Leichenkeller 1 had a gas-tight door.  Leichenkeller 2 did not.
Leichenkeller 2 was the room referred to as "the" morgue in Bischoff's
letter to Kammler.  Yet it could not be fumigated because the gas would
have spread throughout the whole Krema.

    When you demonstrate that you understand these very simple points
which most ten-year-olds would have grasped by now, please get back to me
and we can continue your remedial reading lessons.

    Your lessons in honesty come later. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Aug 19 21:10:09 PDT 1996
Article: 58315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: 18 Aug 1996 15:38:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4v7rf9$da9@access5.digex.net>
References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4ujsfm$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <320fc3fe.2374059@news.inetport.com> <4uul07$3el@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4uul07$3el@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:32:37 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
>wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>	Treblinka is what proved that CO was equally deadly to HCN.  Other
>>>than that impossibility,

    Matt Giwer engages in wilful deception again.  I have repeatedly
pointed out that he is taking extremes of estimates and ignoring dosage,
room size, temperature, etc.

    But what else can one expect from a self-confessed liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

>>> it must all be true.  
>
>>Yes, it was used to kill humans at Treblinka. I think you are coming
>>around, Matt.
>
>	Why would I be a Red Queen like you?  

    But you are, Matt.  You do believe three impossible things before
breakfast: that you can fool people with your repeated lies piled on top
of repeated lies.  You also believe that you can remember the history of
discussions, something which is clearly impossible for you.  You also
believe you can read competently.  Again, this is clearly impossible for
you.

    Sorry about that, Red Queen.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 20 07:26:10 PDT 1996
Article: 58355 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 20 Aug 1996 00:29:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 161
Message-ID: <4vbevm$gsr@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4v3s5h$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4v602e$lkj@access5.digex.net> <4v8vm7$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:83297 alt.revisionism:58355

In article <4v8vm7$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 17 Aug 1996 22:44:30 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4v3s5h$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:

>>    The bodies themselves were made to disappear.  Ample documentation of
>>the crematoria and the ovens used to burn the bodies exist -
>>correspondence between Topf u. Sohne and the SS, bills, orders, etc.  This
>>documentation is physical evidence.
>
>	How many thousand tons of ashes were found?  How many large deposits
>of ashes were found?
>
>	After you get passed none, what is your response?

    Irrelevant.  We are not talking numbers right now.  We are talking
gassing yes or gassing no.  One person gassed is enough.  Later we can
move on to numbers.  Please stay on track.


>>    And of course there is the physical evidence Matt has been presented
>>but pretends not to have seen.
>
>>    Cyanide traces in the Kremas.  He has yet to give an honest response
>>to the flaws I pointed out in his claim that this was from fumigation.  
>
>	You have presented none as there has yet to be any valid study of the
>matter.  Unless you have your own unpublished study, there still is
>none.

    My objections had nothing to do with the level of cyanide.  But you
know that.
  

>>(He has yet to understand that there were two different underground rooms
>>in Krema II, and that both were called "morgues" on the construction
>>drawings, but only one could be fumigated.)
>
>	You have yet to demonstrate any such thing.  Post the drawings and the
>reasons why only one could be fumigated.

    Lack of a gas-tight door and ventilation system.  Therefore fumigation
would take the whole building offline and the ventilation would be much
worse than a barracks with windows.  If the gas-tight door and ventilation
system (and don't forget the cyanide gas detectors and the original
specification for a wooden fan, later dropped) were needed to fumigate one
morgue, why not for the other?  Suddenly you are completely incapable of
seeing the clear inconsistency.


>Did not HCN evaporate in one of the rooms?  More Nazi physics at work?

    Looks like you have quite a bit of work to do on your reading
comprehension.  But we knew that already.


>>    A letter from Bischoff to Kammler talking about a "gassing cellar."

    No answer, I see.


>>    A letter from Becker to Rauff about gassing vans, confirmed by Rauff
>>in a deposition he gave in Chile.

    Still no answer, I see.  Do you think nobody will notice?


>>    A gas-tight door with the inside protected by a wire-mesh grille.  (In
>>order to protect people inside a bomb shelter from glass splinters, it
>>would make more sense to use a solid plate on a swivel.)
>
>    Is there not some rule here against "I can think of a better way?"
>Or does that rule apply only in one direction?  And need I ask?

    The issue is whether your way works at all.


>	But then why not explain why a peephole in an unlighted room without
>windows is of any value?  What did the SS see in the dark?  Or could
>the SS see in the dark?

    Do you claim they used flashlights to store and remove the corpses
that you have implied must have been there in order to necessitate the
fumigation you claim accounts for the cyanide traces which are there?  Or
was it candles?
 

>	Or are you suddenly going to discover lightbulbs and interior wiring
>and switches for the first time?

    And since you have never told us that you go to the bathroom, we must
conclude that you are full of fifty-one years' worth of shit.


>>    An inventory sheet listing showerheads in a room whose construction
>>drawings show no plumbing for showers.  (Matt has consistently
>>misrepresented this point - it is not the lack of physical plumbing which
>>is significant, but the lack of _plans_ for that plumbing even on drawings
>>which show the other plumbing in the room.)  This physical evidence
>>corroborates the eyewitness testimony of dummy showers.
>
>	Excuse me one more time but such plans have never been posted.

    Get off your fat lazy ass and into a library.

    How did you ever learn anything before there was a Web?

    Surely you are old enough to remember books?


>Would
>you please do so from the book you have which carries the complete
>plans for the building?  And then will you explain how ZB pellets get
>through showerheads?  
>
>	Where are the drawings of the mechanism to release it from ZB and move
>it through the showerheads without piping that is?

    Where is the eyewitness who claimed that?  As far as I can tell, that
was a journalist's misinterpretation which spread.  When you find someone
who actually claims to have seen this mode of operation, rather than just
hearing about it, get back to me.

    Of course you are trying to distract from the fact that the dummy
showerheads are inconsistent with a morgue and consistent with homicide no
matter whether the gas comes out of them or not.


>Or are you
>formally abjuring the old truth just like an antisemite?

    Lose the strawmen and address the evidence.


>	And where were these showerheads save in Germany were there were no
>gas chambers according to Wiesel and Wiesenthal?

    The inventory sheet lists them for Leichenkeller 1 of (I believe)
Krema II, Birkenau.


>>    The best Matt Giwer can do is lie.
>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>
>	As a contributor, Stein, you are also a conspirator in violating my
>copyright in the material I write.  Keep it coming.  I love it.  

    So your articles have not yet expired.  Each site sets its own
expiration and access policies.  You authorized a copy being stored on
Nizkor when you posted it - you either post to all of Usenet or don't post
at all.  If you don't like those choices that is your problem.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 20 07:26:11 PDT 1996
Article: 58395 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Def
Date: 19 Aug 1996 18:12:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4vaosq$360@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uoivn$2lt@news1.panix.com> <8C68005.0811013F0D.uuout@almac.co.uk> <4v3md9$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v3md9$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Aug 96 00:05:00 +0100, angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS
>MCLELLAN) wrote:
>>Oddly enough, the Giwer's beloved Nazis were none too fussy on the 
>>"rules of warfare", e.g. the 'Commissar Order', 'Nacht und Nebel', the 
>>'Bullet Decree', the murder of German and Czech exiles in 1940, the 
>>murder by ommission and commission of millions of prisoners of war, et 
>>cetera ad nauseam and well beyond. But don't take my word for it.\

[snip]

>And as you know, the 1899 rules were not unilaterally binding but only
>applied when signatories to it were at war with each other.  And if a
>signatory allied with a non-signatory then the rules were inoperative
>for all the allies.  That means that if any one of the countries
>allied against Germany was not a signtory, Germany was not bound by
>them.  
>
>	Your next task is to look up which countries were signatories and
>which were not.  
>
>	And please do not come back with a variation upon "it doesn't matter."
>People spend thousands of man-hours negotiating those rules.  And the
>specific terms under which they became inoperable were put there for a
>reason.  

    Then you should have no problem with any issue of ex post facto laws
at the Nuremberg trials, as they were not conducted under US law.  Yet you
went on and on about the standards of civilized countries.  Now all of a
sudden you what is civilized does not matter, only what is on paper.

    But of course your hypocrisy is well-known to regular readers.


>>
>
>	No answer I see.  

     Shall we go through the dozens of issues you've run away from,
confessed liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 20 18:52:13 PDT 1996
Article: 58547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!zdc-e!zdc!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: 20 Aug 1996 17:10:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4vd9kk$e93@access5.digex.net>
References: <4umtee$94q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4v1ecf$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4v26g4$9q3@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4v3urr$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v3urr$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 16 Aug 1996 16:09:40 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
>anderson) wrote:
>
>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: But of interest to the Jews
>>: the males are meaningless.  It is only the "jewgirls" that matter. 
>>: 
>>: 	The men are drones in a female dominated society.  
>
>>Matt, must you keep posting on subjects of which you're entirely
>>ignorant?
>
>	All male Jews die off tomorrow and there is still a future full of
>Jews.  All female Jews die tomorrow and there are no more Jews in the
>world.  

    Wrong again, but you should be used to that by now.  One would almost
think you were trying. Then again, maybe you are. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


    What are your picks for the big winners in the stock market over the
next year?  Please tell me so I can sell them short.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 20 19:30:17 PDT 1996
Article: 58577 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter?  Again? WAS [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: 20 Aug 1996 17:24:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4vdae1$eo2@access5.digex.net>
References: <5b3_9608152247@tor250.org> <4v3tm3$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4v7sus$dq1@access5.digex.net> <4v9hq7$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v9hq7$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 18 Aug 1996 16:03:40 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>>	For months now the discussion has been of a one large room with four
>>>inner support columns and a single door to the outside that was "gas
>>>tight."
>
>>    That is the gas chamber of Krema II (and its twin, Krema III).
>
>	Buzzer there.  K III is identified on Nizkor as being the undresseing
>room for the gassing vice the LK or I and II.  

    Produce the reference or give it up, confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


    Or is this just your illiteracy showing instead of your dishonesty? 
It is often hard to tell.  We must keep in mind that it takes a 163 IQ
type like you to read "after a few minutes there was silence" as meaning
that screaming went on for tens of minutes.


>        Post the drawings of the "other" underground room when you get
>the lying chance.

    You first, confessed liar.  Post your reference to back up your claim
that Nizkor identifies Krema III as being the undressing room.  Then we
can go on to the many other claims you failed to back up.

    I trust you can understand why I will not be holding my breath,
confessed liar.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 20 22:43:22 PDT 1996
Article: 58593 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria == gassing
Date: 20 Aug 1996 17:47:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4vdbpq$fc8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4v48i6$ou6@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4v4gia$gte@news.enter.net> <4v9ds9$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v9ds9$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 17 Aug 1996 13:13:46 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>  On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:43:55 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>  wrote:
>
>>  
>>>  >You can't handle basic arithmetic, yet you pretend
>>>  >to understand higher mathematics.
>
>>>  	We are all still awaiting you to post your first numeric analysis of
>>>  anything having to do with the gassing.  
>>  
>>>  	You can not or you will not because the results are against gassing.
>>  
>> [Giwer's deliberate invasion of another person's privacy deleted]
>

[snip]

>	And now reposted as he deliberately chose to make public, asshole.


    Perhaps I should go ahead and post an address and phone number which
are public.  After all one always has the option to get an unlisted
number.  I'm sure there are many people who want to give your poor father
get-well wishes.

    Now why don't you deal with the substantive issue you deliberately cut
out of Yale's post, confessed liar?



        Matty poo demands mathmatical analyiss from another person.  Can  
he understand basic math.  When confronted with  distributions of 3-0 and  
283-5 which contradicted his silly assertions, Giwer's response was that
they  
were within the normal statistical deviations. 

        Judge for yourself.  Is Matty poo dishonest or just ignorant? 



    Both.  But you know that.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 20 23:11:18 PDT 1996
Article: 58605 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I am still waiting
Date: 19 Aug 1996 15:49:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4vagfr$q4e@access5.digex.net>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	When is the FBI going to show up now that so many of you have been
>contacted by them for records and evidence?

    Excuse me?  Who, exactly, has been contacted by the FBI for records
and evidence?  Can you produce a post where anyone said such a thing?  I
am quite sure I never did so, despite the fact that you insisted I had.
Are you perhaps hallucinating something?  Or are you just a brainless fish
who does not understand simple English?

    Indeed, I am still waiting for you to learn to read.

    And, of course, to learn how to tell the truth.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 07:07:42 PDT 1996
Article: 58620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph - zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: 21 Aug 1996 02:29:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4veac6$3r2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4un0g6$a27@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4v1duk$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>  <4v409g$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v409g$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:14:17 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>># I have been through a real world test of Baysian stats.
>># I funded it.  I mean like out of my budget. 
>
>># I have no idea why people continue to play around with it.  
>
>>Because it works.
>
>>Call ARPA and tell them to halt their project on 
>>detecting roads in aerial images. It uses Bayesian
>>analysis. Just one example.   
>
>	If 1/10th of what ARPA does pays off, they call a celebration.  

    Dr. Keren gave you an example of Bayesian methods working (as did Alec
earlier).  You said you could not understand why it was still used,
implying you think it can't work.

    In other words, you prove you are an idiot once again.


>>You're talking about things of which you don't  
>>have a clue. You don't know anything about mathematics
>>or its applications.
>
>>Define Bayesian analysis, and show how it is applied,
>>for instance, to restore images. Go ahead. I am waiting.
>
>>You don't know anything about any technical matter, as
>>is proven here every day.
>
>>You're a sad clown.
>
>	And you are the one who has NEVER responded to a calculation with
>another calculation.  

    Prove it.

    When have you done so?  Shall we revisit the calculation of energy
needed to boil off the water in a corpse, which you said you could do but
ran away from?


>	You are either unable to do it or you know that if done honestly it
>does not support your holohuggery.  

    You did not respond to the challenge to define Bayesian statistics
above.

    Clearly you are unable to do so. 

    You did not respond to the challenge to compute the number of calories
needed to deal with the water in a 70 kg corpse, which you said you could
do.  Clearly you cannot or you know that if done honestly it proves that
the burn is exothermic.

    And it is clear you are a repeated and wilful liar.  Especially as you
openly admitted it yourself.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 07:07:43 PDT 1996
Article: 58643 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.mindspring.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: to summarize
Date: 21 Aug 1996 03:27:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4vedpi$4lu@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uuu8t$7is@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4v3bo7$fhb@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <3218FF58.966@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3218FF58.966@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison   wrote:
>william c anderson wrote:
>> 
>> Daniel Keren (dkeren@world.std.com) wrote:
>> : mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>> :
>> : # In the last three months the truth seekers (aka revionsits)
>> : # have beaten the crap out of the holohuggers.
>> :
>> : With claims such as the following?
>> :
>> : 1) Belsen camp was really in Poland, not in Germany.
>> :
>> : 2) Documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>> :    in the Birkenau crematoriums don't count, as they were
>> :    really due to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS-men who
>> :    authored them.
>> :
>> : These are your claims.
>> :
>> : Do you doubt that a rational person reading such claims
>> : will conclude that you are mentally retarded?
>> 
>> Add these:
>> 
>> 3) Recording tape was invented in the fifties.
>> 
>> 4) Nobody ever used the term "United Nations" before 1945.
>> 
>> Everybody, now--add your favorite Giwerisms!
>
>5) The human skull has one bone...and then give a reference that
>   says it doesn't.

6) "After a few minutes there was silence" really means "the screaming
went on for tens of minutes."

7) A device that crushes something knows the maximum allowable particle
size and will adjust its crushing to produce particles ranging from .5
that size to the maximum allowable size.

8) The per-gram calorie value of fat cells with all water removed is equal
to the per-gram calorie value of fat cells still containing their water.
In other words, water burns.

9) Atmospheric nitrogen burns.

10) Bones are made of calcium oxide, and do not contain phosphorus.

11) Testimony is not evidence.

12) Trademarks and copyright are the same thing.

13) Einstein introduced the concept of orders of infinity.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 07:07:44 PDT 1996
Article: 58660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!visi.com!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews Run Everything
Date: 20 Aug 1996 17:36:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4vdb4u$f20@access5.digex.net>
References: <4v70s0$2p2@access5.digex.net> <4v82dv$59v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v82dv$59v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>From the Talmud:
>
>"Heaven and earth were created only for the sake of the jewish people." 
>(Vayikra Rabba 36)  
>
>"You (the jews) are human beings, but the nations of the world (goyim) and
>not human beings, but beasts." (Baba Mezia, 114b).  
>
>"Yahweh created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jews would not have
>to be served by beasts.  The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human
>form, and condemned to serve the jews day and night."  (Midrasch Talpioth,
>225-L).  


    Congratulations.  One of the three references you gave actually refers
to a real page and tractate of the Talmud, which is a much better average
than I usually see.  Before I reply, can you surprise me and correctly
identify which of the three citations above is an actual page of an actual
tractate of the Babylonian Talmud?

    Unfortunately the alleged quote from that page is both distorted and
out of context, but we'll get to that later. 

    Of the other two citations, I am pretty sure that one of them is an
actual work (but not part of the Talmud).  I'll have to check on the other
one - and of course there is the question of whether they really say what
you claim.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 09:27:32 PDT 1996
Article: 58695 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!news4.agis.net!agis!ns2.mainstreet.net!news.jersey.net!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Hitler and the Daleks
Date: 20 Aug 1996 16:12:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4vd671$cd6@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uo5od$23r6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <32160CFB.692E@vegas.infi.net>  <4v94ho$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v94ho$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:42:43 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>I hope this helps to answer your question. Please feel free to ask more.
>
>	Your BS covers nothing.  

    A true statement!  Nothing can be covered by her BS, since it is
nonexistent.

    The BS of confessed liar Matt Giwer, on the other hand, could cover
the Milky Way and have enough left over for half the Greater Magellanic
Cloud. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 09:27:33 PDT 1996
Article: 58698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: 20 Aug 1996 16:14:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4vd6bk$cf9@access5.digex.net>
References: <4uhi8c$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3211c4a5.1386966@news.pacificnet.net> <3213af91.2116763@news.inetport.com> <4v3t0o$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v3t0o$ev0@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:41:31 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
>wrote:
>>Here it is folks! When you are beaten by a piece of evidence, claim it
>>has been doctored in some fashion or is distorted. Do this without
>>presenting any evidence at all. Do this by saying so!
>
>>Amazing. These folks are always true to form.
>
>	You obviosly can not read

    He is not the person who thought that "after a few minutes there was
silence" means the screaming went on for tens of minutes.  But you know
that.

>but if it did state what you claim then you
>folks should be jumping on it to explain why they do not support your
>claims about them.  Or should I post the picture with comments again?

    Another unsupported claim from a confessed liar.  Worthless, of
course.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 11:38:57 PDT 1996
Article: 58723 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.thenet.net!trellis.wwnet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revision v. holohugging
Date: 20 Aug 1996 16:59:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4vd8uk$dos@access5.digex.net>
References: <4umtee$94q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4utn9s$eiq@grivel.une.edu.au>  <4v1ecf$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v1ecf$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:20:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>> writes:
>># Matt Giwer writes:
>
>>## A revionist will never call you a name for questioning
>>## what they post.
>
>># Any fatbroads around to answer?
>
>>And "jewboys"?
>
>	Rather I have not read that term here.

    You don't read what you write, then.  And only two days earlier!


 Subject:      Re: Auschwitz Myths and Facts
 From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
 Date:         1996/08/14
 Message-Id:   <4us72p$gfb@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>

[...]

>You're a stupid piece of dreck. Didn't I tell you
>this already?

        Quite true, Jewboy.


  http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=6993909&server=dnserver.db96q3


    Matt, do you need a twelve-step group to help you with your addiction
to lying? 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 16:05:48 PDT 1996
Article: 58775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!visi.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Economics of Gassing
Date: 21 Aug 1996 14:45:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4vflgh$omo@access5.digex.net>
References: <4veegs$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4veegs$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	It has been said that the reason for shipping Jews to camps with gas
>chambers was because of the cost of ammunition. 

    By whom?  Other than self-confessed liar Matt Giwer?

    Source, please.

    [cue up theme music from "Jeopardy"]

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 16:05:48 PDT 1996
Article: 58787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: refusal to most megabytes of physical evidence
Date: 21 Aug 1996 02:51:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4vebkm$429@access5.digex.net>
References: <4vbfj0$gtr@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vbfj0$gtr@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Here we have a holohugger refusing to post what he claims are
>megabytes of physical evidence.  
>
>	Why does he refuse to publically post it?

    Let's turn the question around?  Why does Matt Giwer refuse to look at
it?

    Because he is a lying troll, as he has openly admitted.  He has no
interest in the truth at all.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 17:34:09 PDT 1996
Article: 58809 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: 21 Aug 1996 19:41:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4vg6rg$5n3@access5.digex.net>
References: <9bc_9608182117@tor250.org> <4vaqb4$903@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vaqb4$903@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>>Finally, there doesn't have to be a logical reason. 
>
>It's not that there has to be a logical reason. 
>
>It's that there has to be an -illogical- reason.
>
>The Holocaust positively -requires- that the nazis be illogical, goofy,
>and stupid.

    They decided that Jewish babies and geriatric cases were a threat to
the safety of the Reich and spent valuable resources to transport them
across Europe in the middle of a war - to hold them prisoner, according to
your claims.

    Is that illogical, goofy, and stupid enough for you?

    Killing them on the spot may have been more efficient than shipping
them to be killed (ignoring, of course, the desire to maintain "plausible
deniability" at least), but killing them on arrival is still more
efficient and sensible than what you claim was done.

    Most efficient and sensible, even if you are illogical, goofy and
stupid enough to believe that the 18-50 year olds were a real threat,
would be to give the kids to the geezers and let them fend for themselves
in place.

    Sorry for pointing out that you didn't think things through.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 21 18:48:43 PDT 1996
Article: 58812 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!venus.sun.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: here it is again, what is kmcvay?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 21 Aug 1996 14:55:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:58812 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:359521 alt.politics.correct:129024 alt.politics.democrats.d:110826 alt.politics.usa.republican:259492 alt.politics.clinton:276741 alt.president.clinton:89603 alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:39427 alt.current-events.usa:23764 talk.politics.misc:437151 alt.politics.usa.misc:103270 alt.politics.libertarian:198991 alt.politics.radical-left:112558 alt.politics.reform:90044 alt.politics.usa.congress:58956 alt.politics.usa.constitution:83677 alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich:74480 talk.politics.libertarian:114459 alt.usenet.kooks:28402

In article <4veriu$o2d@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,

[email from Linda Thompson snipped]

Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Excuse me, just to be scrupulous, I have stated the gryn.org has sent
>me these mail bombs even though the org has only one member.  And of
>course the ORG is a COM but beyond that ... 
>
>	BTW Alec, you would be amazed as to how many people this is going to
>even without the distribution I add to it.  
>
>	And do not forget, Linda T. hates my guts for good reason and I do not
>like her either for many reasons.  
>	
>	But the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Remember that.  Mutual
>enemies make strange bedfellows.  It has in this case at least.  
>
>	Bomb again and make it even more obvious that this connection has to
>be punished in a very kinky manner.  

    Bad Alec.  Naughty Alec.  Bad wicked naughty Alec.

    First, you must tie him down to the bed.

    Then you must spank him.

    And then you must spank me.

    And me!  And me!  And me!

    A spanking!  A spanking!
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug 22 06:45:28 PDT 1996
Article: 58854 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: 21 Aug 1996 19:11:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4vg52k$4qf@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4vd55f$7st@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vdanq$122@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4ve8jq$llp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ve8jq$llp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 20 Aug 1996 21:29:30 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>anderson) wrote:
>
>>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:
>>: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote to mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt 
>>: Giwer):
>>: 
>>: >I'm sorry that you're a zero, a nothing, a miserable
>>: >failure, and an imbecile. But it ain't my fault. So don't
>>: >take it out on me, please.
>>: 
>>: you holohuggers sure dedicate a lot of time and bandwidth to someone who
>>: supposedly is "a zero, a nothing, a miserable failure, and an imbecile."  
>>: 
>>: What does that say about you?
>
>>That we're easily amused?
>
>	That you are very silly to think there is something to be gained by
>it.  

    What do you gain from being exposed as a lying fool?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    I know you've made statements - more than one, in point of fact - but
since you admit that you are willing to lie, why should anyone believe any
of them?


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug 22 06:45:29 PDT 1996
Article: 58857 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alleged Talmud Quotes (Re: Jews Run Everything)
Date: 21 Aug 1996 03:43:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4veen0$51r@access5.digex.net>
References: <4v70s0$2p2@access5.digex.net> <4v82dv$59v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <3218efc5.1393409@news.inetport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3218efc5.1393409@news.inetport.com>,
Mike Curtis  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>Part of the proof is in the word "goyem" which wasn't around at the
>time of the supposed writings. This immediately gives the source away
>as antisemitic.

    No, the word "goyim" was around at that time.  However, two of the
alleged sources are not even part of the Talmud, and I'm not even sure one
of them exists.  Even if it does, I seriously doubt it has such a page
number.  The authentic Talmud page reference is both distorted and out of
context.  Not only that, the term used was not "goyim" but "ovdei
kochavim" - an important difference, though I'm sure Kurt Stele has no
idea why.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug 22 19:42:42 PDT 1996
Article: 58989 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria == gassing
Date: 22 Aug 1996 19:13:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4vipi8$110@access5.digex.net>
References: <4v48i6$ou6@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4v9ds9$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4vdbpq$fc8@access5.digex.net> <4velnv$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4velnv$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 20 Aug 1996 17:47:38 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>    Perhaps I should go ahead and post an address and phone number which
>>are public.  After all one always has the option to get an unlisted
>>number.  I'm sure there are many people who want to give your poor father
>>get-well wishes.
>
>	Obvioiusly you are a free man.  
>
>	Want to go for being subhuman?  

    Thank you for admitting that you have behaved in a subhuman manner.

    And you cut out, once again, the substantive text from Yale Edeiken.

    Obviously you cannot deal with it.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug 22 19:42:42 PDT 1996
Article: 58990 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: 22 Aug 1996 19:24:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4viq7q$19s@access5.digex.net>
References: <320ca388.6425401@news.pacificnet.net> <4v4ido$1jto@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> <4v9763$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v9763$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 17 Aug 1996 13:45:28 GMT, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

[listing of various death toll estimates deleted]


>	What is interesting is that the more recent one gets the more closely
>the number of dead is accounted for completely by documented camp
>admissions and documented deaths without the slighest need to invoke
>gassing.  

    The confessed liar offers no documentation, as usual. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html



>	In fact we now have a case where there was a huge investment in four
>complete Krema complexes just to dispose of possibly 300,000 people at
>most.  
>
>	And what is of even more interest is that they made that investment
>rather than simply doing less ZB fumigation to kill off more people
>from disease.
>
>	Keep in mind the point, Zyklon-B may have been the cheap means of
>execution, but not using it at all was even cheaper.    But then the
>myth has it they build huge building complexes for so few people when
>building nothing and fumigating less would have accomplished the same
>thing.  

    Mr. Giwer has just proved that the San Quentin gas chamber is a hoax. 
Obviously it would be much simpler and cheaper to let the death row
inmates starve to death, or just keep them strapped into the chair in the
chamber until they suffocate.  Therefore the gas chamber is illogically
expensive, and so must not exist. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug 22 19:42:43 PDT 1996
Article: 58992 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I am still waiting
Date: 21 Aug 1996 14:36:54 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4vfl06$odf@access5.digex.net>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4vagfr$q4e@access5.digex.net> <4vbslc$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vbslc$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 19 Aug 1996 15:49:15 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>    Excuse me?  Who, exactly, has been contacted by the FBI for records
>>and evidence?  Can you produce a post where anyone said such a thing?  I
>>am quite sure I never did so, despite the fact that you insisted I had.
>>Are you perhaps hallucinating something?  Or are you just a brainless fish
>>who does not understand simple English?
>
>>    Indeed, I am still waiting for you to learn to read.
>
>>    And, of course, to learn how to tell the truth.
>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>
>	Ah, yes, the continuing fraud and lies of the holohuggers.  

    Prove it.  Produce one quote where I ever claimed to have been
contacted by the FBI.  Of course you will have to forge it, because it
does not exist.  A Justice Department attorney is not the FBI.  And of
course you do not yet understand why he was asking, but that is for me to
know and you to find out.  Every word I have said is absolutely true.  It
is not my fault you are an illiterate fool with Alzheimer's and can
neither understand nor remember what I have written. 

    Indeed, try to find one quote where _anyone_ claimed to have been
contacted by the FBI.


>BTW:  I will be lodging a formal complaint in BC on conspiracy to
>violate copyright and violation fo copyright before the end of the
>month.

    As I see it, since Nizkor gets a newsfeed, you authorized Nizkor to
store a copy of your articles by posting to Usenet.  And each site sets
its own article expiration policies.  And any site is free to set its own
access policies.  If you knew anything about the Internet, and had any
intelligence, you would understand this.  But it's your money. 


>	Just a few more facts to get in place.  

    Why not do something really amazing and get a few facts in place
between your ears and in your posts?

    Any definition of Bayesian statistics yet?  Or aleph sub 1?  Go ahead,
surprise me. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Aug 22 21:40:11 PDT 1996
Article: 59009 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Psychological toll on the Einsatzgruppen
Date: 22 Aug 1996 19:01:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 128
Message-ID: <4viorv$pb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4veg2k$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4veg2k$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	This is an interesting claim, that the reason for the creation of gass
>chambers was to spare the psychological injury to the members of the
>Einsatzgruppen.
>
>	Let us first review the bidding.  In the old days they did not kill
>very many.  But with the reduction of the number of dead at Auschwitz
>from 4 million to 1-1.5 million, they shot roughly 3 million more.

    Buzzer there.  This is a very stupid and dishonest statement for
several reasons.

    The figure of 4 million at Auschwitz formerly given at the Auschwitz
state museum was _all_ people, not Jews alone.  The Jewish death toll did
not change.  I am not aware of an early _total_ murder toll that must be
maintained by shifting. 

    Second, as has been posted here ad nauseam, the figure of six million
Jews was not arrived at by adding camp totals.  Mr. Giwer is once again
being dishonest.

    Third, even if we pretend that the full four million were Jews and
further pretend that the six million figure was arrived at by counting up
camp totals (it was not), the three million could also be accounted for by
shifting to the three Reinhard camps rather than shooting. 

    So much for Mr. Giwer's alleged critical thinking skills.


>So all that was needed was for them to shoot another 1-1.5 million out of
>their 3 million and there was no need for the huge investment in four
>gassing / Krema complexes.  
>
>	As I have already reviewed the  economics  of it,
>I will not go any further into that here.  Now we consider the problem
>of psychological injury or "toll" upon the Einsatzgruppen members.
>Was there really such a thing and were the hugely more expensive
>gassing / Krema complexes really the solution?
>
>	First one has to consider the times.  While the Einsatzgruppen were
>supposed to be in the field executing every Jew they could find,
>Treblinka was in full operation.

    Buzzer again.  The EG began operations in the summer of '41 and pretty
much cleaned out the Baltics by the winter of that year.  The
Einsatzgruppen was using gassing vans by May, 1942 - please see
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg.kiev.may42. 
Treblinka began operations in late July, 1942.  Check the Reinhard FAQ on
Nizkor.


>I don't know exactly what I am supposed to be missing here

    A functional brain?


>but if gassing was started as a
>replacement for field executions why were both gassing and field
>executions in operation at the same time?

    See above.


>	Clearly gassing did not replace field executions.

    See above.


>	Second, rather than commit to a huge construction and shipping project
>in the event of problems with the troops, there was a faster and
>easier solution that any commander would think of instantly, get fresh
>Einsatzgrup personel.  There are raw recruits.  There are volunteers
>from the Russian front, by the tens of thousands obviously.  And the
>replacements need only hold out half as long as the original troops.  
>
>	Clearly there was no need to replace the field execution method.
>
>	Third, what was the psychological impact?  These people had already
>wiped out 3 million people (given the slack from the Auschwitz
>reduction)

    Wrong, as explained above.


>so what were 30 to 50% more?  Was there suddenly a
>recognized threshold?

    Shooting women and children.


>Was not the Russian front sufficient motivation?
>
>	And are we not told that the Jewish Sonderkommandos became numb to
>their work?  Why did not these Einsatzgruppen personnel become numb?
>Were they more human than the Sonderkommandos?

    No.  The SS would not care about the psychological impact on the SK,
as they were considered vermin.  But they did not want to subject good
Germans to such unpleasant duty.


>	Clearly there were simple field solutions to any personnel problems.
>
>	So in this excuse for the gassing part of the story we are left with
>little of interest to explain the shift to gassing vice field
>executions.
>
>	It appears there is no real justification to ship people anyplace just
>to gas them.

    It appears there was no real justification to ship little children
anyplace just to detain them, either.  Yet they did.  Therefore Mr. 
Giwer's argument that the Nazi actions were illogical proves absolutely
nothing.

    It appears once again that Mr. Giwer does not understand the issues or
the historical record.  It is one of the few ways in which he is
consistent in his arguments.

    And he is, after all, a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Aug 23 11:38:23 PDT 1996
Article: 59120 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp0.mindspring.com!news.mindspring.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: basic warnings for the use of gas masks
Date: 23 Aug 1996 00:08:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4vjari$1tu@access1.digex.net>
References: <4vipjg$nr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4vipjg$nr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>
>1. This device does not supply oxygen and must be used only in
>adequately ventilated areas containing at least 19.5% oxygen. 
>2. This gas mask must be used in conjunction with the proper canister
>for protection against specific contaminants. 
>
>	[The proper canister refers to the type which works against a
>particular gas.  The kind that works for HCN falls under the general
>category of acid gases.  Thus the supply records for A-B must also
>contain requisitions for replacement filters of this particular type.]
>
>3. Do not use when concentrations of contaminants are unknown or
>immediately dangerous to life or heath. (IDLH) 
>
>	[Definitely contrary to the idea opening the door in 15 minutes.]  

    Isn't it also definitely contrary to the picture of people laying out
those Zyklon beer coasters on the Degesch pub?

    Oops there.


[snip]

>12. Wear impermeable protective clothing for protection against
>exposure to gases and vapors which can poison by skin absorption.
>
>	(And of course there will be records of such clothing requistioned for
>use at A-B)

    You already conceded that they fumigated with Zyklon.  What is your
point?  Hoping to fool the lurkers who haven't yet learned that you are a
confessed liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug 24 08:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 59421 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: 21 Aug 1996 17:55:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <4vg0k5$2ji@access5.digex.net>
References: <3211c90c.2514301@news.pacificnet.net> <32133b1d.4170894@news.pacificnet.net>  <4v1gm2$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4v1gm2$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 20:47:41 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>One indication to the percentage of children among the
>>victims is the report by SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager about
>>the numbers of Jews murdered by his unit (Einsatzkommando 3),
>>in Lithuania, during July-November 1941. The report gives
>>a very accurate breakdown, by dates, and also classifies
>>the victims into Jewish men, women, and children.
>
>>Some typical entries:
>
>>[Source: 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
>> Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 46-58].
>
>>The Commander of
>>the security police and
>>the SD
>>Einsatzkommando 3     Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941
>
>>--------------------------
>>|Secret Reich Business!  |             5 copies
>>--------------------------             4th copy
>
>>      Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
>>      up to 1 December 1941
>
>>[...]
>
>
>>12.9.41      City of Wilna     993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
>>                               Jewish children                       3,334
>>17.9.41      City of Wilna     337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
>>                               Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm.     1,271
>>20.9.41      Nemencing         128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
>>                               Jewish children                       403
>>22.9.41      Novo-Wilejka      468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
>>                               Jewish children                       1,159
>>24.9.41      Riess             512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
>>                               Jewish children                       1,767
>>25.9.41      Jahiunai          215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
>>                               Jewish children                       575
>>27.9.41      Eysisky           989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
>>                               Jewish children                       3,446
>>30.9.41      Trakai            366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
>>                               Jewish children                       1,446
>>4.10.41      City of Wilna     432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
>>                               Jewish children                       1,983
>>6.10.41      Semiliski         213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
>>                               Jewish children                       962
>>9.10.41      Svenciany         1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
>>                               Jewish children                       3,726
>>16.10.41     City of Wilna     382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
>>                               Jewish children                       1,146
>>21.10.41     City of Wilna     718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
>>                               Jewish children                       2,367
>
>>[...]
>
>>
>
>>Do the calculation. I can post the complete report.
>
>	But you never will. Your math.  Your calculations.  

    When have you done calculations?  Shall we go back to the issue of
cremation energy you ran away from?


>	You do the calculation.  It appears you are unable to do the least bit
>of math, yet that is your "PhD" or at least your claim. You have yet
>to post anything even vaguely smelling of arithmetic.

    I remember your laughable attempt to compute the energy needed to deal
with the water in a corpse.  Want to return to that issue?  We're still
waiting for your calculations.


>	Either you are  a fraud with the PhD claim or you know that the even
>basic arithmetic is contrary to your claims.  
>
>	There is nothing in between.  
>
>	You are a fraud.  

     Matt Giwer is a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Aug 24 15:19:13 PDT 1996
Article: 59569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "homicidal" gas chambers
Date: 23 Aug 1996 13:58:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4vkrft$cm6@access5.digex.net>
References: <4vjl06$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vjl06$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	What separates a homicidal gas chamber from a non-homicidal gas
>chamber?
>
>	Too many adjectives there.
>
>	What separates a gas chamber from a non-gas chamber?
>
>	Nothing.

    Wrong.

>	It is quite clear that any room with HCN release is deadly, so is a
>car or a telephone booth for that matter.  Luckily Superman never
>faced it.  

    True.  But what separates a gas chamber from a non-gas chamber is that
a gas chamber can keep the gas inside, and can be ventilated.

    True to form, confessed liar Matt Giwer is once again playing
dishonest games.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 25 09:52:41 PDT 1996
Article: 59699 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "homicidal" gas chambers
Date: 25 Aug 1996 04:14:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4vp21k$js3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4vjl06$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4vkrft$cm6@access5.digex.net> <4vmbkf$sne@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vmbkf$sne@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 23 Aug 1996 13:58:21 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4vjl06$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>	It is quite clear that any room with HCN release is deadly, so is a
>>>car or a telephone booth for that matter.  Luckily Superman never
>>>faced it.  
>
>>    True.  But what separates a gas chamber from a non-gas chamber is that
>>a gas chamber can keep the gas inside, and can be ventilated.
>
>	So can any room.  Want to tell me what the difference really is?

    I just did.  They do not use just any room at San Quentin.  Look at
the features.

    Is your problem stupidity or dishonesty or both? 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 25 09:52:42 PDT 1996
Article: 59745 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: An Ignorant Imbecile, I
Date: 25 Aug 1996 04:38:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <4vp3da$k7i@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4vmjti$1ps@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vmjti$1ps@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Aug 1996 23:10:07 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>Yet again, our 163-IQ'ed "leading revisionist", Matt Giwer,
>>proves that, to summarize it shortly, he knows nothing about
>>nothing, especially when technical matters are concerned:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) posted:
>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>## A high concentration of CO can
>>## kill people in the same duration of time a lower
>>## concentration of HCN will kill them.
>
>># There is none from a diesel engine.  Even you
>># should know that.  
>
>>"The Significance of Diesel-Exhaust-Gas Analysis", by
>>J.C. Holtz and M.A. Elliot, Transactions of the ASME,
>>Vol. 63, 1941, p. 97-105:
>
>>Reports that in a series of experiments, when a diesel
>>engine was run rich (that is, with a high fuel-to-air
>>ratio), up to 6 percent CO was present in the
>>exhaust; this is way beyond the lethal concentration,
>>which is 0.4 percent (see graph on page 98, table
>>on page 99).
>
>	Remember that we have been over this irrelevent nonsense months ago,
>twice even.  It was always nonsense and it is still nonsense.  

    Tell to Holtz and Elliot, confessed liar.

    Diesels can produce high CO.  Just fiddle the fuel feed.  That's what
Holtz and Elliot did.  They got 6% CO.

    You claimed that diesels produce no CO.

    I repeat my challenge.  I will spend two hours in a warehouse in which
one pellet of Zyklon has been dropped, if you agree to spend fifteen
minutes in a 6% CO atmosphere.


>	Anyone interested can go look it up on DejaNews.  It has nothing to do
>with the discussion at hand and I have no interest in leading you by
>the nose through it one more time. 

    Everyone can see that you have no references to refute Holtz and
Elliot.

    Give it up, confessed liar.


>	Sorry, but this newsgroup is moving onward and is not rehashing
>holohugger nonsense.  

    You have no references to refute Holtz and Elliot.  You are a
confessed liar.  Your assertions are worthless. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Aug 25 22:29:26 PDT 1996
Article: 59920 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Whine, whine, whine
Date: 25 Aug 1996 04:53:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4vp4b6$kdk@access5.digex.net>
References: <359_9608232011@tor250.org> <4vmkls$1ps@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vmkls$1ps@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote [to Alec Grynspan]:

[snip]

>	It appears we have a person here who really believes he controls the
>net as was the earlier complaint and he is also an admitted murderer
>for a Jewish intelligence organization.  
>
>	So what is really the point here?  
>
>	 A man who had admitted he is a murderer for the Mossad is not
>claiming connections with god herself and claiming to be able to get
>away with mailbombing.  What does he do next, real mail bombing?  More
>wetwork for the Mossad?  Or for his own perverted pleasure?  
>
>	He has publically discussed his murdering ways in this conference.
>Yet he chooses to call reference to his murders that he admitted
>libel.  Why is that?  
>
>	Wetwork is murder.

    My plumber would agree wholeheartedly.


>People who do wetwork for intelligence
>organizations are murderers.

    Or lawn sprinkler repairmen.

>If they did not do such wetwork even
>though they claimed to have done so then they are liars.  
>
>	So, Alec, are you a murderer or a liar?

    We know Matt Giwer is a liar.  He admitted it.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Aug 27 20:57:49 PDT 1996
Article: 60408 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 10:34:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <4vv10p$dtl@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4v447l$ou6@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4vg475$494@access5.digex.net> <4vj151$m8o@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vj151$m8o@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Aug 1996 18:56:37 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4v447l$ou6@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 20:59:17 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
>>    Letting the Jews stay right where they were would have been cheaper
>>than the camps.  If they were that irrational, how can you suddenly say
>>_that_ is too irrational, but _that_ is too irrational?
>
>	We will get around to the complete story of the shootings later.
>
>	At this point were are simply discussing the economics of shooting in
>place or shipping hundreds of miles for gassing.

    However, economics was not the only consideration.



>>>	They were even dumb enough to ship them all the way from France just
>>>to gas them in Poland.  Or would not the French "stand for it"?
>
>>    They seemed to want to maintain the fiction.  You scoff at the secret
>>that was not a secret, but you obviously forget the "secret" bombing of
>>Cambodia.
>
>	I was watching the news at the time it was going on.  It is difficult
>to call something a secret when it is on the evening news.  I have
>never understood how the term "secret" got attached to it.  

    Simple.  Not officially admitted by the government.

[Irrelevant part of comparsion to Stalin's victims snipped]

>>>># No tattoos.
>>>
>>>>Only those spared for work were tattooed.
>>>
>>>	One more assertion that only the undocumented were gassed without
>>>explaining how the undocumented were counted.  
>
>>    Railroad records.  Subtract the registered from the shipped and you
>>have the number undocumented.  Of course you are too illiterate to realize
>>or too dishonest to admit that the term "undocumented" means those
>>undocumented _at the camp_. 
>
>	We were also over the railroad records and the holohuggers insisted
>that there were  no records kept of those being shipped to be gassed.

    Quite right, only those shipped period.  What is your point?

>At that point I asked why there was preselection for gassing in one
>story and then selection at the camp in another story.

    Would you care to give a URL for the "preselection before shipping"
claim, illiterate and confessed liar?  Of course not.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>That is where
>the holohuggers dropped the subject.  

    A request for documentation is where the illiterate and confessed liar
Matt Giwer drops subjects.


>>>># No insecticide.
>>>
>>>>Stop with this bloody rubbish already. It was a cheap
>>>>way with which to kill many people. So it was used.
>>>
>>>	So are bullets.  So is CO2 from putting them in a room and sealing it.
>
>>    Proof positive: US gas chambers are a myth.  Look at the trouble and
>>expense they allegedly go to when it would be much cheaper and easier to
>>let the person sit in the chamber and suffocate.
>
>	IF only only IF the argument were for conserving bullets or conserving
>gas would you have a point.  However, the WW II gassing is being
>justified based upon the economics of bullet costs against
>transportation and other costs.  It would be good if you would keep to
>the subject.

    It was not the only justification cited, but you apparently cannot deal
with more than two choices.  I repeat my prior warning to stay away from
Baskin-Robbins.  I am not sure you could handle something more complex than
the choice between vanilla and chocolate.

  
>
>>    If your argument proves the Nazis did not do what they did, it also
>>proves that San Quentin does not do what it does.  Sorry about that.
>
>	You do not appear to be able to stick to the subject.

    I am discussing the logical implications of what you are saying.  It is
part of the subject.  Sorry you are not bright enough to see that.


>>>After all, there was no hurry as the cremation was the bottleneck
>>>according to you folks.  
>
>>    Invalid reasoning.  It takes far fewer people resources to keep
>>control over dead bodies than live people.  Dead bodies can safely be left
>>to wait to be burned.  You forget the problem of the people out in the
>>woods waiting to enter the chambers at peak times.  They must be kept
>>under control.  Your proposal keeps them out there longer.
>
>>    And that is not the only reason to want them dead quickly even if they
>>cannot be burned immediately.
>
>	That is not the explanation that was given.  Are you jumping around to
>find an explanation that might fit or do you claim to have some basis
>of knowing the reason.  

    It is a logical conclusion based on knowledge of many factors, not just
a narrow focus on one.  You should try it some time. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Aug 28 00:18:03 PDT 1996
Article: 60457 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news5.digex.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: 27 Aug 1996 10:43:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4vv1ii$eb3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4v45re$ou6@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4v81ab$4v2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vnfmr$n9k@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4vp0cm$rqb@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4vp0cm$rqb@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 24 Aug 1996 17:55:39 GMT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>
>They tried to tell the world and were unceremoniously ignored.  But
>>Mr. Stele knows that.
>
>	So you hold that the world did know all about it.  Good.  

    Here we see the illiteracy of the Giwer-troll in full bloom.  It was
explicitly said that they tried, not that they did.  It was explicitly said
that they were ignored, which implies that the attempt failed, and the "the
world" did not know anything about it, let alone _all_ about it.

    Somehow the Giwer-troll takes this to mean that the world knew "all
about it."

>>Mr. Stele's level of ignorance and deliberate misrepresentation rivals
>>Giwer's.  Perhaps they are one and the same scumbag?
>
>	AS YOU KNOW it was the claim of a foolish holohugger (redundant) that
>it was done to save bullets.  
>
>	But your position is so much more reasonable.  They stopped shooting
>them to save the feelings of the SS so that the SS could have no
>feelings about gassing them.  

    The illiterate Giwer-troll did not understand that nowhere was it said
that saving bullets was the _only_ reason.  But the Giwer-troll has shown
itself incapable of dealing with complexity.


>	Yet given the three million that were shot (where else did the A-G
>deaths go after 3 million fewer were gassed?) that the majority of the
>executions were over by that time.  The only thing needed would be
>fresh troops (volunteers from the Russian front) to shoot the less
>than have remaining.  
>
>	But you know all of this.  

    And I have addressed this earlier.

    But Mr. Giwer is a well-known and self-confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



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