From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul  1 09:07:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47362 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More keen powers of observation
Date: 30 Jun 1996 23:34:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4r7h0m$fsu@access1.digex.net>
References: <4q9apb$7mi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qkhnj$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4qtcfe$h5u@access1.digex.net> <4qvdga$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4qvdga$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>[Note: this article supersedes one with an error caused by one of my
>>occasional memory lapses.]
>
>>In article <4qkhnj$t82@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>Mike Stein wrote:
>>>>    Do you deny making those statements [that the "Vergasungskeller"
>>>>line was written by someone with a morbid sense of humor]?
>>>
>>>	Do I deny making anything more than a guess?  Yes.  It is one document
>>>compared to thousands that make no such reference.  The unique is what
>>>needs to be explained with other then PNE.  I suggested a morbid sense
>>>of humor.  And as you know, there has been absolutely no other
>>>possibility considered by the holohuggers.
>
>>    And maybe some SS man had a pet monkey that got at a typewriter one
>>day and hit the jackpot.  Why didn't you list that possibility as well?
>
>	One can invent all kinds of silly possibilities.  It remains that there
>are thousands of documents silent on the subject and a couple a three
>that use wording that can be inferred to imply gassing.  
>
>>>	And you have missed that upon more careful reading I have suggested that
>>>it is more likely a reference to two different rooms.  
>
>>    Only a 163 IQ type could catch on so quickly to what most everyone
>>else here knew before you even appeared at the beginning of the year. 
>
>>    Yes, it is a reference to two different rooms.  There were two large
>>underground rooms, called on the plans Leichenkeller 1 and Leichenkeller
>>2.  The one whose construction supports could not be removed due to
>>weather was Leichenkeller 2, sometimes known as the undressing room.  
>
>	This is the one you folks are identifying as the gas chamber in today's
>truth.

    No.  Kremas II and III (in the numbering system where Krema I was in
Auschwitz, and II-V in Birkenau) were built to the same basic plan. Each
one had two underground rooms, referred to on that plan as Leichenkeller 1
and 2.  Leichenkeller 1 is the gas chamber. Leichenkeller 2 was the
undressing room.  Please keep in mind that these are different from Kremas
IV and V.


>It is not labeled or referred to as an undressing room in
>anything I have seen here or on Nizkor.

    If you have not read the right file, or cannot understand or remember
what you have read, that is not my problem.


  Are you sure you have your
>story correct?  And the reference is to the wooden forms, not supports,
>making it the one with the poured concrete roof.

    Forms, supports, we're talking about the same thing.


>That
>>was the one whose ventilation system was never installed, and which had no
>>airtight door, thus missing two key features you said were suitable for a
>>bomb shelter.  Yet they kept the more expensive roof and they never put
>>the corpse chutes back into the design, either.  How very strange. 
>
>	Now the story has been changed one more time.  I find this intriguing.

    The story has not changed at all.  You are simply unable to keep it
straight in your own mind.  There are multiple buildings and multiple
rooms under discussion, and you keep mixing them up and fail to understand
which building and which room is under discussion.  Just as you are unable
to remember who posted what, and who is a pharmacist and who is not, you
are apparently unable to remember which building had which name and which
features.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul  1 11:59:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47400 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What "DIESEL EXHAUST CONTROVERSY?"
Date: 26 Jun 1996 09:33:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4qre7s$h4@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qjugd$el5@news-e2b.gnn.com> <4ql7pv$p43@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4qnb6n$9bs@access4.digex.net> <4qo0ev$32n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qo0ev$32n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ql7pv$p43@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4qjugd$el5@news-e2b.gnn.com>, 
>>>>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Revisionists - I thought I would share this recent article by Mr. 
>>>>>Grieb with the book.  He has some fascinating insights.
>>>
>>>>>Pat Buchanan and the Diesel Exhaust Controversy
>>>>>By Conrad Grieb 
>>>
>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html
>>>
>>>
>>>	And upon going there you find Stein, a man of not credentials in the
>>>subject whatsoever.
>
>>    Appeal to authority, which Mr. Giwer has elsewhere identified as a
>>fallacy.  Note that Mr. Giwer has identified nothing wrong with the
>>article.  (Nor, come to think of it, has he identified his credentials in
>>this area.) 
>
>	Well taken.  He posted an idiot response that had nothing to do with the
>substance.  
>
>	Feel better?  Or are you the same Stein.
>
>	The message ends "continued" but that is not a link to the rest.  What
>ever that idiot Stein posted is forever lost.  

    After I agreed with Mr. Giwer that the link was missing, Ken told me
to check again.  The 'continued' is not clickable, but there is a
clickable 'next' a few lines below it.  (I was looking at it on a small
screen and guess I didn't notice the first time that I wasn't _quite_ all
the way to the bottom on the scrollbar.)  I did put in a suggestion that
the 'continued' be clickable as well.

    Meanwhile, let's see if Mr. Giwer can address the substance of the
entire article, which I posted as an earlier followup.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul  1 11:59:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47417 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: 26 Jun 1996 09:27:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4qrdrp$92@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4qko3f$da8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4qni6g$bno@access4.digex.net> <4qo5dn$pvn@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qo5dn$pvn@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qko3f$da8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>[...]
>
>
>>>>>>Then, of course, the Nazis used incineration pits, and of course, there
>>>>>>was	 the proposed Krema VI....
>>>>>	
>>>>>	Of course you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever
>>>>>admit you made it up.  There were common trash incinerators around
>>>
>>>>    Around Auschwitz?  Large enough to accommodate a corpse?  Of course
>>>>you will never post your evidence of this nor will you ever admit you made
>>>>it up. 
>>>
>>>	It would be interesting to read your ideas of just how small the
>>>incinerators would be in the equivalent of a city of 80,000.  
>
>>    That's right - I guess you don't have landfill in Florida.
>
>	You have just bracketed your age.  There were NO trash landfills before
>the EPA got into banning incineration.  
>
>>    I don't know if they had any incinerators at all, as opposed to
>>landfill or pit burning.  If you can document the existence of any
>>incinerators at Auschwitz at all, of any size, please do so. 
>
>	What a juvenile.  When you learn something get back to me.  

    Of course Mr. Giwer is unable to document the existence of any
incinerators, so he has to resort to namecalling. 

    Mark Van Alstine has done Mr. Giwer's homework for him, however.
There was at least one incinerator (of unspecified size).


>	What people have to realize is that we are faced with posts like this.
>They seem to believe that there was no history before they were born and
>that landfills were always the way things were done.

    Mr. Giwer distorts what I said.  Nothing I said implies that landfills
were always the way things were done.  I also mentioned the possibility of
heap burning.  I am quite aware that landfill is not the only method.

    But Mr. Giwer provides no documentation about what was _actually_
present at Auschwitz.  He must fall back on handwaving and calling names
because he cannot back up his empty assertion with documentation.  Mark
Van Alstine had to do his homework for him.


>	No matter how stupid that is, incineration was the preferred method up
>until the EPA got the power to ban it.  There were no landfills prior to
>then.  Incineration is cheaper.  (speaking of bodies ...)  

    No documentation, just assertion.  This may be true, but it proves
nothing about what the actual situation was at Auschwitz.  Mr. Giwer is
handwaving here because he has no idea what the situation was at
Auschwitz, or didn't until Mark Van Alstine did his homework for him.

    This despite the fact that Mr. Giwer has repeatedly told others to do
their own homework.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul  1 11:59:36 PDT 1996
Article: 47419 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: why would anyone care?
Date: 26 Jun 1996 09:40:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4qrek6$qa@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qletb$2jo@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qletb$2jo@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>	May I suggest that Hitler was a victim of early onset Altheimer's and
>was a secret drooler since 1932.  The only talent he had was making
>speeches.
>
>	Therefore he was completely innocent of anything he is charged with.
>
>	Now tell me, what would be the difference were this true?  
>
>	Not a damn thing.

    Let's turn the question around.  Let's assume you are correct, and
every death was the result of mistreatment rather than active murder. 
Hitler and the rest of the Third Reich are dead.  You can't do them any
good by providing evidence for an appeal.  So tell me: why would you care
if they were innocent or not?  By the argument you seem to be suggesting
here, you too are spending a lot of time on this for no constructive
purpose.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul  1 11:59:37 PDT 1996
Article: 47424 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is seeing things
Date: 26 Jun 1996 13:42:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4qrsqp$bda@access5.digex.net>
References: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net> <4qce9h$jng@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4qnbg9$7hd@shiva.usa.net> <4qo2fb$76u@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qo2fb$76u@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>In article <4qce9h$jng@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com whines:
>
>>	You have a real shit search routine.
>
>>Yes, and its name is "Matt Giwer."
>
>>	In fact it is there in two places that I know of.
>>	Why can't you find it?  
>
>>Because it is not there at all!  If it were, Mr. Giwer could provide
>>a pointer, instead of demanding that everyone else go on a wild goose
>>chase to "find it!"
>
>	What wild goose?  Someone claimed to have done a content based search
>and could not find it.  
>	
>	He either lied about the search or Nizkor files are censored.

    Since I did not lie about the search - I did a search which should
have found any file containing "Rudenko" even if broken across two lines,
as long as standard hyphenation rules were obeyed - I can only presume
that Mr. Giwer is playing fast and loose with the word "censored."  Nizkor
contains excerpts from books, testimonies, etc.  However, that is not the
same thing as deliberately omitting material with the conscious intent to
deceive or conceal relevant material.  I'm sure Ken McVay would like to
have every word of every book ever written about the Holocaust online, but
there are certain logistical problems with that even if nobody objected on
copyright grounds.

    If Mr. Giwer actually read a file about Rudenko prosecuting Hoess and
Hoess being acquitted, it either misspelled Rudenko's name or was on a
website to which Nizkor was linked, and Mr. Giwer did not notice that he
had linked over to another website.  I could not find such a file through
an Altavista search on "Rudenko" either, however. 

    It is of course true that Hoess appeared at the IMT and was not found
guilty - for the same reason that Rudenko appeared at the IMT but was not
found guilty.  A court can only pronounce a verdict on a defendant, not on
an unindicted witness, prosecutor, or attorney.


>	How do I know?
>
>	That is a riddle which is obvious to anyone paying attention to this
>conference.  
>
>	I have told several people the answer but no Nizkorite has figured it
>out yet.  I would think it would be obvious by now.

    That there be trolling here?  That has been obvious for a long time.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul  1 13:52:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Two trolls dissected
Date: 26 Jun 1996 13:20:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4qrrgp$agu@access5.digex.net>
References: <4pl6aj$cj5@news.usaor.net>  <4qd258$hcb@dfw-ixnews <4qkke5$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:34722 alt.revisionism:47456

In article <4qkke5$ni9@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>>>         Try Dejanews if you missed it.  
>
>>Giwer chooses not to present actual references. As has been pointed out in
>>the past, it is the responsibility of the person making a claim to
>>document it.
>
>	And since holohuggers have used DejaNews in place of presenting actual
>references.  Is that not accepted practice here?   When did the rules
>change?  

    The rules never changed.  DejaNews is an acceptable reference - but
_only_ if the URL is provided, as I have usually done when citing DejaNews
and will do if challenged on any citation.  Saying "DejaNews" with no URL
is about like saying "in some book in some library."

    Nonetheless, I will attest that there has been adequate documentation
presented here that some unarmed SS guards were shot at Dachau.  I have
never seen Mr. Ferree claim that he _participated_ in that shooting.

    However, Mr. Giwer never _really_ said he had.  You see, Mr. Giwer
frequently uses language in deceptive ways.  He trolled by replying that
Mr.  Ferree "told a great story about it" in response to a two-part
question - but that answer is vague and can refer to just the first part
of the question.

    Similarly, it would not surprise me if Mr. Giwer's accusations that I
had deleted his calculations was a deliberate deception based on the fact
that I deleted some computations of fat percentages.  But since the
immediate subject of discussion was calorie requirements, the deleted
computations were not directly relevant.  The phrasing was misleading and
therefore dishonest. 

    You will notice that I was very careful in my reply to state _which_
computations I had never deleted.  So far Mr. Giwer has had no answer to
that.  This strengthens my belief that the claim was a troll based on
ambiguous wording.  I was very precise in my reply, and it left no room to
wiggle around with ambiguities.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul  1 17:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47510 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No surprise
Date: 1 Jul 1996 15:33:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4r995e$87q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qdqfe$i3f@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4qt1vd$eli@access1.digex.net> <4qtd49$qvf@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31D31C10.2EAA@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31D31C10.2EAA@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison   wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> >    Did you ever find those computations of the number of calories needed
>> >to deal with the water in order to ignite a corpse?  Remember, show all
>> >assumptions and formulas used.
>> 
>>         Sure did and posted them many times.  They were not your idiot Pure
>> Jewish fat from Hebrew Union.  You should try another provider.
>
>No you didn't.  Are you suggesting that my provider, which has never
>missed any previous articles, should start specifically missing yours
>on one particular topic?

    Of course, if he never did any computations, then it could be argued that
he made a true statement in saying that they were posted many times.  They
would simply be unrecognizable as computations due to their nonexistence. 
Here are all my computations on the fuel needed to lift a Saturn V: 

And blank lines have appeared many times in my posts.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  2 06:55:28 PDT 1996
Article: 47591 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: 1 Jul 1996 15:41:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4r99kd$8ks@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r5snv$180@news1.io.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4r5snv$180@news1.io.org>, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>In <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>	Mt. Grynspan, sir. 
>>
>>	You have read a 10 to 1 ratio saying that I have gotten control of
>>alt.revisionism and you have read their declaration of defeat.
>
>You fool yourself. Several people here could demonstrate their ability to take you 
>on, Matt - with little difficulty. Their problem is not that they lack the ability - 
>merely the experience.
>
>>	
>>	Now you are the only person I would consider one on one who is here.
>>
>>	You have also stated you know how to deal with me.
>>
>>	The following is a challenge.
>>
>>	DO SO.
>>
>
>When I've completed other tasks. This area is *NOT* one of high priority for me 
>now and, I'm sorry to tell you, such a battle is not worth the time - unless you're
>willing to pay what my clients pay me.

    Well, while Mr. Giwer is waiting for Alec to get unbusy, perhaps he would
like to occupy himself with a computation of the number of calories required
to deal with the water in igniting a 70kg corpse.  Or perhaps he will point
out the many errors in the rebuttal I wrote to Friedrich Berg's work.  (Maybe
he'll surprise us and actually cite references other than the usual "Because!
I!  Say!  So!")  These are both very much on topic and he has told us how much
he wants to stick to the topic of revisionism.  I'm just sitting here
waiting.... 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  2 06:55:29 PDT 1996
Article: 47654 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 1 Jul 1996 15:51:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4r9a7d$93r@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
>
>	Do you folks really want to continue this?  

    I don't attack anyone for questioning the holocaust dogma.  I attack
people for lies and intellectual dishonesty.  Occasionally that includes my
supposed allies.

    Why don't you attack the many errors in my response to Friedrich Berg now
that I have posted the whole thing?  It's on topic.  What are you waiting for?
Don't you want to continue this on-topic discussion of a particular
revisionist theory?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Jul  2 13:07:30 PDT 1996
Article: 47739 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: 2 Jul 1996 03:28:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4raj2e$ae6@access1.digex.net>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>	From their own website...
>
>[snip]
>
>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>are Jewish sources. 
>
>	Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>from their own site.  We all know that it what it is.

    Yes.  Off-topic.  I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
track?


>
>	It would also appear they have chosen to respond with a death threat.

[Poem snipped]

    Mr. Giwer, the posting of Vogon poetry is a violation of the Geneva
Convention.



>	It also appears they want this man dead.
>
>JDL in America
>
>                         David Cole: Monstrous Traitor
>
>
>By Robert J. Newman
>
>He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and
>deception. Just like a
>low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads
>his venom to
>innocent victims.
>
>This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust
>denier of
>the Six Million Jews.

    Of course, the revisionists haven't liked him too much since he
announced that he is satisfied that there was a homicidal gas chamber
built and used at Natzweiler.

    I wonder if he has any friends left at all.


[remainder deleted]

    Aside from the part about Cole, how is this on-topic for this
newsgroup?  I thought you wanted to stick to the topic?

    Any cremation computations yet?  Or any reaction to my article in
rebuttal to Berg's paper?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul  3 07:37:17 PDT 1996
Article: 47857 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Funding for the Holocaust Museum
Date: 2 Jul 1996 13:46:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4rbna9$dv@access5.digex.net>
References: <4piskm$5ep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4qfv3q$2uc@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
  wrote:
>In article <4qfv3q$2uc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ruthsommer@aol.com
>(RuthSommer) wrote:
>> And it also bothers me a great deal that although the Holocaust occurred
>> in Europe
>> over a half-century ago, and happened to and by non-Americans, it is now
>> funded by
>> American taxpayers and it takes up a big amount of real estate in our
>> nation's capital.
>> 
>
>BZZZZT! Wrong, but thanks for playing. The Holocaust Museum is NOT funded
>by taxpayers, except in the sense that I'm a taxpayer and I DONATE to the
>Museum.

    I regret to inform you that this is incorrect.  According to fundraising
literature I have received from the museum itself, there is an annual
appropriation for the museum's operations.  It does not cover all the costs, but
it is there.

    Posted/emailed to both.    
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul  3 07:37:18 PDT 1996
Article: 47922 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Looking for serious debate
Date: 2 Jul 1996 11:48:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4rbgbl$me2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qq5f0$f2v@news.enter.net> <4qspg4$8br@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4qv97j$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4qv97j$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote (to Yale Edeiken):
>
>>> This is not only good analysis, but the kind of response I was looking
>>> for.  Further comments on Rudenko's skill are forthcoming.
>
>>It's good to see that Ehrlich606 still thinks that there is worthwhile
>>discussion taking place on alt.revisionism, despite Giwer's best efforts.
>
>	You folks did the usual "post the messages" game when I pointed out it
>was the holohuggers who did not wish to engage in serious debate.

    Still waiting for Mr. Giwer to produce his computations of energy
requirements needed to deal with the water in igniting a 70kg corpse cor
cremation, showing all formulae and assumptions used, with proper
references.  So far all I have seen is the "I posted it/I never said that" 
game.  I've asked if anyone else has seen those computations, and nobody
has pointed them out to me, not even the other revisionists. 

    Now that I have made things simple by posting my article in one piece,
maybe he'd like to take on the diesel issue instead, again with proper
references and arguments rather than "Because!  I!  Say!  So!" 

    Or does Mr. Giwer not wish to engage in serious debate himself?

>Rather than that I have been pointing out the messages where it is still
>demonstrated they do not want serious debate but rather engage in
>insult.  
>
>	You can tell them by either a specific notice of same being appended or
>a true fact about step cleaning or steaming being appended.  

    I cannot have a _serious_ debate without a serious opponent willing to
hold one according to the well-established rules, which include proper
documentation of sources and no lying, deceptive editing, distorted
paraphrase, intentional misrepresentation of data or of the opponent's
position, or other dishonest games.  Literacy is also required, as is the
ability to keep straight what has been said.

    I would say Mr. Beaulieu is the most qualified person but he is harder
to deal with because of the language barrier.  (I know I still owe him a
response on the issue of "Breaking the Silence;" lately I have had zero
time for library research.) 

    I have seen no evidence that Mr. Giwer is qualified.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul  3 15:06:15 PDT 1996
Article: 48019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer lies about Nizkor, again
Date: 3 Jul 1996 12:05:50 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <4re5ou$och@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4qv45n$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48019 alt.censorship:87370 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:109 alt.usenet.kooks:26336

In article <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>	There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>Nizkor.  Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>and says he found no such mention.  Therefore the material is censored.

    That is a very bizarre definition of censored.  Nizkor does not contain
all material related to the Holocaust and makes no claim that it does.  There
are financial, logistical and legal problems with doing that.
Material cannot be put on Nizkor until someone has read it.

    Except in the psychological definition, censorship carries the
connotation of a conscious intent to conceal information.  And even on the
psychological definition, there has to be some opportunity for awareness
before the censorship can truly be said to exist.

    Hilberg is unfamiliar with many books about the Holocaust just as I am
confident that Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with books about physics - _nobody_
has the time to read everything that is published on a topic.  Ken McVay is
certainly no exception, nor am I.

    If a library is unaware of a book, it is not censoring the book by not
carrying it.  If it would like to buy it but ran out of funds before it could
be purchased, that is not censorship either by any reasonable use of the
word.

    Why is Altavista unable to find the information on a revisionist site? 
Would Mr. Giwer agree that Zundel's site and Bradley Smith's site and Greg
Raven's site are also censored, then?  One would certainly think they would
play the information up for all it's worth - yet they don't seem to have it
either, not if "Rudenko" should yield a match.


>	Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>this?  All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>time you folks are unable to find those mentions.

This is what Mr. Giwer wrote originally:



        You really should search off of the "guess the filename"
possibilities to discover that General Rudenko lost the case
against the infamous Rudolph Hoess on charges of gassing for lack
of evidence of gassing from the people who were there at the
time.
 
        You will find the supporting evidence for this assertion on the
Nizkor site and including in the EYEWITNESS testimony of an
investigator of war crimes.  



(Source:
    http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1879190&server=dnserver.dbapr)
 
    The original wording of the claim certainly conveyed the impression he
had read the original information on Nizkor.  If he means that there is a
book cited by Nizkor which contains the information, but the material quoted
>from  the book which appears on Nizkor does not include that information, that
is not the meaning of "you will find the supporting evidence ... on the
Nizkor site."  He should have said, "You will find a reference to the
supporting evidence...."  Mr. Giwer has previously reminded us that the name
of the song is different from what the name of the song is called. 

    But even in that case he has presented no evidence that the information
was seen and consciously omitted.  "Nizkor is incomplete" is a statement for
which there is ample evidence, starting with the "under construction -
permanently!" part of Ken McVay's .sig.  Censored is another matter.

    I can make a much better case that the revisionists have provided
censored material - e.g., citations of Arno Mayer, Gitta Sereny, Pressac, and
Himmler in ways that seriously distort the meaning of their words and might
deceive a naive reader into thinking that these people advocated a position
which they did not in fact advocate by any honest reading of their full
words.

    In any event, all we have from Mr. Giwer is still unsupported assertion -
he has given no reference.  In serious debate, unsupported assertion is
worthless.  The reader will note that per my usual habit, I gave a DejaNews
URL to allow verification of the accuracy of my quote of Mr. Giwer's words.
Mr. Giwer is not in the habit of providing references to allow someone to
verify his assertions without exhaustive search.  Is Mr. Giwer interested in
serious debate or isn't he?  This "I'm right but I'm not going to tell you
how I know" game doesn't look like it to me.

    It should be noted that Mr. Giwer appears to have misread text on
multiple occasions.  For that reason alone it would be irresponsible to
accept what he says here as true without independent confirmation.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul  3 18:48:42 PDT 1996
Article: 48052 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 3 Jul 1996 12:55:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <4re8m7$qn0@access5.digex.net>
References: <31d31a33.1226300@news.eden.com> <4r1hqg$7cc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4r1hqg$7cc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>Matt Giwer deserves a lot of respect.  He is not trained in history,

    Neither is Ken McVay, Jamie McCarthy, nor myself.  So what?

>he does not have a large historical library, a scanner, or access to primary
>materials.

    Also true of many others posting here.  So what?

    I believe Ken McVay has a scanner (I may be wrong even now), but at best
it is a fairly recent acquisition.  And how do you know what Mr. Giwer does
and does not have?


>And yet he still scores points, gives as good as he gets,

    He gets detailed references.  He does not give as good as he gets.


>and takes the heat, mostly alone.

    Substituting "science" for "history" in your text so far, I could make a
similar statement about Brian Zeiler, who is critical of the orthodox
scientists with regard to UFOs.  Wonder what Mr. Giwer would say about that
one?


>His lack of accuracy

    Er, um, I think that writing in one post that one will need on the order
of 30,000 kcal to boil off the water in a body, and writing in a later post
that he never made such a claim is a bit more serious problem than would be
normally envisioned by the mild phrase "lack of accuracy." 


> is more than compensated by his refusal to accept
>counter arguments that are frequently little more than appeals to
>authority.

    But he has advanced arguments that are exactly appeals to authority. 
Haven't you noticed?  What was really funny was the time where he quoted text
>from  a website when he was arguing against those who said Israel had no
written constitution - but dismissed the same site when it was pointed out
that his own source explicitly said that Israel had no written constitution.
(You weren't posting here then, so you probably had no chance to see that
one.)

    Let's review the bidding (to use one of his phrases).  What I see you
saying is that the truth is less important than the attitude.  I respectfully
disagree.


>I don't always agree with the language he uses, but his
>general dynamism, and skepticism, are eminently praiseworthy.  If I had to
>endorse an approach to life, I would much rather endorse an approach that
>was skeptical and questioning, than one which was defensive and
>harrassing.

    Excuse me?  I have been nothing but skeptical and questioning of
revisionist claims.  And that skepticism has been well-founded.  Do you want
a list of times when a check of the sources cited by a revisionist turned out
to say something _very_ different from what was claimed?

    So I'm being skeptical, and I think I've been pretty dynamic now and then
in researching matters and presenting a case.  Gee, does that mean I have an
excuse to lie when doing so?

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul  3 22:42:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48094 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a new approach
Supersedes: <4rer93$d5r@access5.digex.net>
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:24:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <4rervq$doo@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4ra4o1$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4raqhb$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4raqhb$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
 wrote:
>>> Then of course that would equally apply to the mindless repeated
>>> Keren spams would it not?

    They do come much less frequently.


>>Mr. Giwer, you have sent almost half a megabyte worth of articles to
>>the net in less than two weeks, none of which contain a single byte
>>of text which has not been posted previously.
>
>>Almost 500,000 bytes, and not a single one of them is new:
>
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/followups-empty
>
>>In two weeks.
>
>>The figures speak for themselves.
>>-- 
>> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>> Hate mail will be posted.
>
>	But as you know they were all in response to mindless attacks on me.

    This is not true. 


>	So why do you complain about my response rather than the attacks?

    As you yourself have sometimes said, a mere statement of fact is not a
mindless insult.  You have made arguments which fit the description of "ad
hominem."  You have responded with canned text when someone pointed that
out. 

    You have made false and/or misleading statements which any normal
person should have known were false and/or misleading at the time they
were made.  E.g, denying having posted something that to any ordinary
reader looked like a claim of 30,000 kcal for boiling off the water in a
corpse of unspecified weight and water percentage.  A normal person is
expected to remember what he himself wrote within the past couple of
weeks.  Either your original wording was grossly misleading, or your
denial was false or grossly deceptive with the presumption that it was
deliberate, or your denial was grossly deceptive because you are secretly
allowing multiple people to post from your account.  Which is it? 

    Conflicting statements such as yours about the 30,000 kcal figure are
generally described as lies, and people who make them are generally
described as liars.  That is not an attack.  That is a statement of fact. 
I have twice posted the DejaNews URL and relevant text in response to your
denial of making a 30,000 kcal claim.  Perhaps you would like to explain
the discrepancy someday.

    I am very scrupulous about distinguishing between a lie and a possible
legitimate error. When I point out that someone is a liar in direct
response to a proven lie I am only making a statement of fact.  When I
call someone a liar in response to an unsupported assertion, I do not
intend it as a personal attack.  It is intended as a warning that this is
a person whose previous behavior shows that unsupported assertions are
even less trustworthy than normal.  But I don't expect others to swallow
my unsupported assertions without question either.  I make mistakes on
occasion.  I have previously said that I will respond (within reason) to
challenges to document anything I say which is unsupported.  I am saying
it again.

    (Email copies are requested to make sure I see them.  Just indicate in
the email that it is a copy of a public post.) 


>	Could it be you are biased in some manner?  

    Jeff Roberts posts "repeats" much as Daniel Keren does, maybe a little
less.  I _have_ seen it referred to as spam by a couple of people, but I
take it as hyperbole.  I am not aware of anyone complaining to his ISP or
making a _serious_ charge of net abuse.  Are you?  Perhaps there is a
lesson to be drawn here.

    I'm just marking time until I find someone who is interested in
holding a serious debate about some aspects of revisionism.  I rather like
cremation energies and diesel exhaust myself; I've done some small
research into those topics, but am always interested in learning more. 
But I cannot have that discussion until someone comes along to pick up the
other side of it.  If you hear of anyone please let me know. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul  4 07:43:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48121 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS FORGERY
Date: 3 Jul 1996 15:51:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4reiv7$6n2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
someone pretending to be Matt Giwer wrote:

>I am, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  My usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and post
>irrelevant drivel that I have cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the gutters 
>of obscenity or indecency, or both.  It is  obvious that rational discourse 
>with him is not only not possible, it is feared by me. 


    Sorry, it would take at least four pounds of rugelach to break down my
moral fiber.

    It would probably do a number on the fiber of my pants waists, too....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul  4 07:43:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48122 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forging Ahead
Date: 3 Jul 1996 16:36:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4reljv$8rv@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ra3ub$aat@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ra3ub$aat@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>
>
>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)
>
>I moved on to the last major subject of his testimony: the forgery
>of the Travniki document.  Tolstoy remarked that document forgery of all
>kinds had been an important element of KGB activity from the moment it was
>founded.  He gave as an example the forgery of reports to show that the
>Germans and not the Soviets had murdered 15,000 Polish officers in the
>forest near Katyn in 1941. [....]  An entire division of the KGB, known as
>*Division 14,* dealt solely with the forgery of documents.  Tolstoy
>related that in his book, *Stalin’s Secret War* he had dwelt on document
>forgery by the KGB, and had therefore studied the subject in depth. 
>Towards the end of this session, an authentic report was submitted that
>demonstrated the sophistication of the KGB’s forgers.  According to
>Tolstoy, no document should be ruled authentic simply because certain
>details, such as seals and words, are correct.  This assumption is
>especially invalid because the historical details were well known to the
>KGB forgers.  p. 171
>
>Why am I not surprised to read this?




    I am surprised.  I keep seeing claims that the Trawniki cards were
incredibly clumsy pieces of work, with anachronisms, upside-down rubber
stamps, reversed photos, etc.  This is inconsistent with the claim that
the KGB forgers were knowledgeable and sophisticated.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul  4 07:43:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48129 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: 3 Jul 1996 16:27:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <4rel2t$88n@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4raj2e$ae6@access1.digex.net> <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>	From their own website...
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>>>are Jewish sources. 
>>>
>>>	Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>>>from their own site.  We all know that it what it is.
>
>>    Yes.  Off-topic.  I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
>>track?
>
>	It has been clearly pointed out that Nizkor is clearly a subject here.
>I have even used their files to deal with the current form of the myth.

    Would you like to explain the connection between the JDL and Nizkor
other than both having some sort of interest in David Cole?  I seem to
have missed it. 


>>>	It would also appear they have chosen to respond with a death threat.
>
>>[Poem snipped]
>
>>    Mr. Giwer, the posting of Vogon poetry is a violation of the Geneva
>>Convention.
>
>	A death threat however disguised is still a death threat.

    Now, how do you know they are not just saying what would turn on a
paranoid? 

    I wouldn't go so far as to call any threat to repost the poem a death
threat, but it certainly seems capable of causing severe nausea in anyone
who knows anything about poetry.



>>>	It also appears they want this man dead.
>>>
>>>JDL in America
>>>
>>>                         David Cole: Monstrous Traitor
>>>
>>>
>>>By Robert J. Newman
>>>
>>>He has managed to stir the gullible masses with hatred, lies and
>>>deception. Just like a
>>>low-lying snake that slithers from dark place to dark place, he spreads
>>>his venom to
>>>innocent victims.
>>>
>>>This is David Cole, who takes pride in his demonic occupation: Holocaust
>>>denier of
>>>the Six Million Jews.
>
>>    Of course, the revisionists haven't liked him too much since he
>>announced that he is satisfied that there was a homicidal gas chamber
>>built and used at Natzweiler.
>
>>    I wonder if he has any friends left at all.
>
>	I could care less.  They clearly appear to want him dead.

    *shrug*  If I were in charge of the JDL things would be different.  If
you were in charge of the IHR, would things be any different?


>>[remainder deleted]
>
>>    Aside from the part about Cole, how is this on-topic for this
>>newsgroup?  I thought you wanted to stick to the topic?
>
>	The Gang of Six is clearly on topic here until the coordinated effort
>stops.

    It can't stop until it starts.  If I am supposed to be part of the
Gang of Six it can't start until I agree to go along with it.  I deal with
people on my own terms, as you know.


>>    Any cremation computations yet?  Or any reaction to my article in
>>rebuttal to Berg's paper?
>
>	What is your problem here?  Still can't reconcile that pure jewish fat
>in the Hebrew Union sausage?  

    The pure fat and I get along quite well, as long as I don't make it
part of my daily diet.  Still approximately 9 dietary calories (i.e.,
kilocalories) per waterlogged gram of fat cells.  I cannot change that
until I learn enough about genetic engineering to produce a cow whose body
synthesizes Olestra. 

    As I never made a claim that I could compute the number of calories
needed to boil off the water in a 70kg corpse, nor did I ever make a claim
that the witness must have been lying on scientific grounds, I am not the
one who has a problem here with backing up my claims. 

    Is there some other personality posting from your account making
claims you don't know about?  Maybe you should change your password.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul  4 07:43:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48151 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 3 Jul 1996 17:39:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 913
Message-ID: <4rep9t$boe@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r9a7d$93r@access5.digex.net> <4ra4ga$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ra4ga$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
>>>
>>>	Do you folks really want to continue this?  
>
>>    I don't attack anyone for questioning the holocaust dogma.  I attack
>>people for lies and intellectual dishonesty.  Occasionally that includes my
>>supposed allies.
>
>>    Why don't you attack the many errors in my response to Friedrich Berg now
>>that I have posted the whole thing?  It's on topic.  What are you waiting for?
>>Don't you want to continue this on-topic discussion of a particular
>>revisionist theory?
>
>	Berg who?  Do you have a thread name?

    Do you now ask to be exempt from the Giwer Rule?  The one that states
that you are responsible for reading everything that is posted and
remembering it?  The one that says if you cannot take the time to follow
the discussion then you are not qualified to participate here?  That is
the rule you yourself established for this newsgroup.

    But this time I will not enforce it.  Here is the whole enchilada. 
Again.  Would you like me to email it to you as well?  (Actually by
another rule you once announced I have the right to do that whether you
ask for it or not.)



   This article discusses the errors and deceptions contained in 
   Friedrich Berg's "proof"[1] that it would be nearly impossible to use 
   diesel exhaust to kill people as described by the witnesses to the 
   Reinhard death camp gassings.  The case is given in nontechnical 
   terms, though for those who want to wade through the detailed 
   technical arguments, they are given in an appendix which reproduces 
   the case with full details and references.

   Still, people are encouraged to read all the details.  One thing 
   "scientific" Holocaust deniers like Berg and Fred Leuchter count on 
   is the fact that many non-scientists can't follow scientific debates, 
   and assume that if it is dressed up in scientific terms, it must be 
   right.  But there are many other scientific debates we see today - 
   pollution, cancer, global warming, etc. - which enter into the 
   political arena.  Some of these arguments are made to support a 
   hidden ideological agenda, and the science is dishonest.  We hope that 
   following the full argument will help people realize that just 
   because something comes dressed up as "science" doesn't mean you 
   should stop thinking critically about what you're being told. 

   Berg's arguments boil down to the following:

       1) Diesel engines, unlike gasoline engines, do not produce
          large amounts of carbon monoxide (CO) under normal operation, 
          and it is extremely difficult to get them to produce levels
          of CO sufficient to cause death within the time reported by
          the witnesses.
       2) Eyewitnesses described the corpses from a diesel gassing
          as blue in color - but acute carbon monoxide poisoning victims
          are red.
       3) Furthermore, the Germans had much better ways to produce
          carbon monoxide than diesel engines (the "producer gas" 
          trucks and busses), so using diesels makes no sense.

   Therefore (reasons Berg) contrary to the assertion of historians, the 
   victims were _not_ killed by carbon monoxide. 

       4) Diesel engines normally produce a fairly high proportion
          of oxygen in the exhaust, so people would not die of
          asphyxiation in the amount of time claimed by the witnesses.
       5) Even if the above were not true, if execution were to be
          by asphyxiation, there was no sense in running the engine -
          it would have been sufficient to seal the victims in an
          airtight chamber, so pumping in exhaust for asphyxiation
          made no sense.

   Therefore (reasons Berg) they were not killed by asphyxiation 
   either; the whole affair is a hoax.

   There is a core of truth to all of the five points.  Point (2) above 
   is often true, though not always.  However, as Berg failed to mention 
   in his paper the witness, SS hygienist Dr. Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, 
   explicitly mentioned asphyxiation as the cause of death[2].  Point 
   (1) is not so true as Berg believes, but given point (2), it is 
   quite possibly irrelevant. 

   Berg relies heavily on "psychological" arguments such as points (3) 
   and (5), the idea that the SS personnel in charge of the death camps 
   would have done things in better ways if they had really wanted to 
   kill people.  For example, in Usenet alt.revisionism article 
   <2vt3du$t0b@mary.iia.org>, Friedrich Berg wrote: "[Scott] Mullins 
   should try to run a heavily-loaded 150 HP engine, that is still 
   small, with a propeller or fan in a closed loop without making lots 
   and lots of noise." 

   Is Berg trying to argue that the Nazis wouldn't have committed mass 
   murder with diesels because they would have been too afraid of 
   getting a ticket for violating noise ordinances?

   In the same article, Berg also wrote, "Since the load of any fan or 
   propeller varies non-linearly with RPM, it is still quite a 
   trick to choose the right sized fan or propeller.  Ivan with the big 
   wrench won't know how." 
   
   Here Berg is actually arguing two contradictory things at once.  
   If this had been done, "Ivan," of course, wouldn't have done it.  It 
   was the Nazis who created the system, not the Russians or Ukranians.  
   The Russians just built the original engine.  The Nazis would have 
   modified it.  Is Berg saying the Nazis wouldn't have known how to do 
   this?  Is Berg saying the Germans had no competent engineers?  On the 
   other hand, arguing that an unsophisticated "Ivan" was responsible
   for the idea and the modification damages points (3) and (5), that it 
   wouldn't have been done because it wasn't a good idea technically. 
   An unsophisticated person would probably not realize that there's 
   anything wrong with using a diesel engine to generate carbon 
   monoxide.  This sort of self-contradictory argument is one advanced 
   by a defense lawyer, not a scientist.

   Although Berg says it's very difficult to tinker with the engine to 
   produce high CO levels, the same technical papers he quotes in his 
   own paper show that the authors were able to produce CO levels up to 
   6% by adjusting the fuel system.  It may also have been possible to 
   block the air intake to alter the fuel/air mixture.  Berg cannot 
   escape the fact that if the authors of his own references were able 
   to produce lethal exhaust from a diesel, so would an SS technician.

   Still, due to the testimony about the blue color of the bodies, the 
   one crucial point on which Berg may very well be correct is that 
   contrary to popular belief, the people who died in chambers fed by 
   diesel engines didn't die of acute CO poisoning.  From this he would 
   like people to believe that if they didn't die from that cause, as 
   commonly believed, the whole story must be a hoax. 
   
   However, there are many separate pieces of evidence all pointing 
   to the conclusion that hundreds of thousands of people entered the 
   camps of Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec and never emerged alive.  
   There are records of rail shipments of people going in, and large 
   quantities of clothing - but not people - going out.  There are 
   reports from the Polish resistance corroborating this.  There are 
   large quantities of bones.  There are testimonies from the few 
   survivors as well as many guards in the camp.  To this day only two
   of the approximately 600,000 people sent to the camp of Belzec have 
   ever been found alive.

   So if Berg is correct that the victims did not die of carbon monoxide 
   if gassed with diesels, how did they die?  Unfortunately, since the 
   camps were destroyed before the end of the war, and the gas chambers 
   and engines with them, it is not possible to reconstruct precisely 
   what happened.  Nevertheless, it is possible to work out the 
   possibilities and determine the _general_ cause of death, if not the 
   precise combination of causes.  Actually, Berg had the answer all 
   along, but refused to see it - or pretended not to.  They probably 
   did die of some form of asphyxiation, with other contributing 
   factors.

   How can this be, if Berg "proved" that there is too much oxygen in 
   diesel exhaust for this to be possible?  There are a number of 
   significant items Berg overlooks.  First, diesels also produce fairly 
   high levels of nitrogen oxide (NOx) compounds, which are also toxic.  
   Berg only discussed the long-term carcinogenic potential of these 
   chemicals, but in sufficient concentration they have short-term toxic 
   effects as well - 250 to 500 ppm of NO2 or N2O4 is "rapidly fatal"
   all by itself[3].  While there is no way of telling if the levels 
   were this high in the diesel gas chambers, as there are many 
   variables involved, Berg's own principal source on diesel exhaust 
   composition gives NOx emissions as high as 690 ppm in one test - 
   depending on the precise distribution of compounds, possibly a lethal 
   dose within the allotted time even without the additional 
   considerations given below.[4]  Many test run results from the paper 
   are in the 267-448 ppm range - a significant contributing factor, 
   even if not the sole cause of death.  Interestingly, the highest
   concentrations were achieved at a fuel-air ratio of just under 0.03
   and an engine speed of 600 RPM - a significant fact given Berg's
   insistence that only at higher fuel-air ratios does diesel exhaust
   become sufficiently toxic to kill in the half hour reported by 
   witnesses.
   
   Second, the people in the chambers would have an elevated respiratory 
   rate due to panic, the exertion of being run into the chambers, and 
   high levels of carbon dioxide (CO2), and thus would have consumed the 
   available oxygen more quickly.  This aspect cannot be ignored.
   
   Third, and most importantly, the chambers were described by the 
   witnesses as having a low ceiling, and the people were packed into 
   the chambers as tightly as possible.  This means that there was not 
   much air per person to start with.  As the diesel pumped in exhaust 
   gas relatively poor in oxygen, high in CO2, soot, NOx (and if, unlike 
   the fuel in the Holtz-Elliot paper, the Nazis used high-sulphur 
   diesel fuel, there would also be sulphur dioxide, another toxin), the 
   people would both take in the toxins and use up the available air 
   (and load the chamber with even more carbon dioxide, causing more 
   rapid breathing, a vicious cycle). 

   This can be done without any tampering with the engine.  However, by 
   adjusting the fuel flow, or partially blocking the air intake, an 
   even less oxygenated exhaust can be produced.  (Again, it is not 
   certain that this was done, but it was entirely possible.) 
   
   Thus it is possible to generate lethal conditions using diesel 
   engines, although there is not much margin for error.  And indeed, 
   testimony indicates that sometimes it was discovered that the process 
   did not produce death in everyone, and bullets to the back of the 
   head had to be administered from time to time.  Rudolf Hoess, 
   commandant of Auschwitz, testified that on a trip to Chelmno, where 
   there were gassing vans, sometimes the exhaust buildup was not 
   sufficient for killing.

   What about the argument that this was not efficient?  This argument 
   first of all assumes that the people choosing the diesel engines were 
   as technically sophisticated as Berg himself.  Few people know that 
   diesels don't produce just as much carbon monoxide as gasoline 
   engines.  If they hooked it up and it worked, that was all that 
   mattered.

   The producer gas vehicles certainly would have worked better, but 
   there were two problems with them.  First, the level of CO was so 
   high that it was potentially explosive (a point Berg made in one of 
   his own Usenet articles cited in the appendix, yet failed to see the 
   significance of).  Second, the vehicles had a more important use - as 
   vehicles.  The diesel engine came from a captured Soviet tank.  There 
   were thousands of them littering the countryside, most of them 
   completely unusable because the Germans didn't have the facilities to 
   repair them.  Thus when the economic considerations are examined, not 
   just the technical, the use of the diesels makes more sense. 

   What about the argument that the people would have died of 
   asphyxiation if just put into an airtight chamber?  This argument 
   trades on the myth that all Nazis were sadistic monsters.  They were 
   killers, yes, but they did _not_ have a policy of causing maximum 
   suffering.  The attempt to use carbon monoxide was in order to have a 
   relatively humane execution.  This was important for the morale of 
   the SS men, as their experience with mass shooting in occupied Russia 
   proved. 

   The use of diesels to run gas chambers was not the best technical 
   means, but it could (and, as the eyewitnesses testified, did) work.  
   Eventually, at Auschwitz, a better method was found, and the diesels
   were abandoned.
   
   [1] Berg, Friedrich Paul: "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth Within a 
   Myth," Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 5 No. 1, Spring 1984.

   [2] Friedlander, Saul: "Counterfeit Nazi: The Ambiguity of Good" 
   (Knopf, New York, 1969) pp. 116-120.

   [3] Thienes, Clinton and Haley, Thomas: "Clinical Toxicology,"
   (Lea & Febiger, Philadelphia, 1972), p. 189.

   [4] Holtz, John and Elliot, M. A.: "The Significance of Diesel-
   Exhaust-Gas-Analysis," Transactions of the American Society of 
   Mechanical Engineers, Vol. 63, Feb. 1941, pp. 97-105.


   APPENDIX


   Below is the relevant section of Berg's own paper in the Journal of 
   Historical Review, plus extracts from one of his Usenet articles, 
   interspersed with comments.


      Oxygen in Diesel Exhaust

           If the Jews were not murdered with carbon monoxide from Diesel 
      exhaust, could they have died instead from the effects of reduced 
      oxygen in Diesel exhaust?  Such a theory would at least be 
      consistent with the claim that the corpses were "blue."
      
         [Berg cites SS hygienist Dr. Wilhelm Pfannenstiel as one witness.  
         However, he did not include in his paper Pfannenstiel's explicit 
         diagnosis of asphyxiation.  While Berg pretends to explore this 
         possibility, he rushes through it while ignoring significant 
         factors - most notably Pfannenstiel's testimony - which point 
         strongly to a conclusion of death by asphyxiation.  Omission of 
         both Pfannenstiel's explicit diagnosis and these other factors is 
         deceptive.] 
      
      A bluish coloring to certain parts of a corpse is indeed a symptom 
      of death from lack of oxygen.  This theory, however, does not hold 
      up very well because of the fact that Diesels always operate with 
      excess air.
      
         [That is how they are _normally_ operated, if one wishes to 
         run them to run a truck or a pump.  This says nothing about how
         they could be operated if one wishes to kill people.]


      [Graph captioned, "Figure 6:  Exhaust gas constituents of internal 
      combustion engines.^22  The heavy vertical line at a fuel:air ratio 
      of 0.055 has been added by the author."
      
          [This graph can be retrieved from Ken McVay's archives as a GIF.]


           Normal air contains 21% oxygen.  In Figure 6 we see that the 
      oxygen concentration corresponding to idle in the exhaust of any 
      Diesel (divided or undivided chamber), shown near the top of the 
      chart at a fuel/air ratio of 0.01, is 18%, which is just a few per 
      cent less than one finds in normal air.  At full load, which 
      corresponds to a fuel/air ratio of 0.055, the oxygen concentration 
      in the exhaust of any Diesel is 4%.
      
         [The graph only covers two diesels, not "any Diesel."  And, as 
         will be seen below, the graph was generated from diesels "in 
         proper mechanical condition."   Although he argues elsewhere 
         that these are the worst numbers one finds in the Society of 
         Automotive Engineers transactions, it should be noted that's 
         the worst one finds for any _American_ diesel.  The Nazis used 
         Soviet diesels.  (Technologies can converge within one nation 
         and diverge between nations, as people are trained in the same 
         schools.)  And he should go to the primary source - the raw 
         numbers which generate the graph.  As will be shown below, the 
         numbers tell a very different story.] 

           Probably the best discussion of the effects of reduced oxygen 
      levels or asphyxia is provided by Henderson and Haggard: 


           SECOND STAGE.  When the oxygen is diminished to values between 
           14 and 10 per cent the higher values of the brain are affected.  
           Consciousness continues, but judgement becomes faulty.  Severe 
           injuries, such as burns, bruises and even broken bones, may 
           cause no pain.  Emotions, particularly ill temper and 
           pugnacity, and less often hilarity, or an alteration of moods, 
           are aroused with abnormal readiness.... 

           THIRD STAGE.  When the oxygen is diminished to values between 
           10 and 6 per cent, nausea and vomiting may appear.  The subject 
           loses the ability to perform any vigorous muscular movements, 
           or even to move at all.  Bewilderment and loss of consciousness 
           follow, either with fainting or a rigid, glassy-eyed coma.  If 
           revived, the subject may have no recollection of this state, or 
           an entirely erroneous belief as to what has happened.  Up to 
           this stage, or even in it, he may be wholly unaware that 
           anything is wrong.... 

           FOURTH STAGE.  When the oxygen is diminished below 6 per cent, 
           respiration consists of gasps separated by apneas of increasing 
           duration.  Convulsive movements may occur.  Then the breathing 
           stops, but the heart may continue to beat for a few minutes and 
           then develop ventricular fibrillation, or stand still in 
           extreme dilation.^23 


           According to Haldane and Priestley, "air containing less than 
      9.5 per cent of oxygen would ordinarily cause disablement within 
      half an hour."^24  Disablement is still not death.

         [This makes it sound as if there's no difference between 9.5%
         and 0%.  With 0% oxygen, death - not disablement - comes in a
         few minutes.  Berg is trying to confuse matters here.]

           It is clear that there is no magic number below which death 
      would occur, or above which life would continue.  However, for any 
      gas chamber relying upon reduced oxygen as the killing method, one 
      would have to reduce the oxygen to below 9.5%--perhaps even below 
      6%.

         [There is no magic number, true, but Berg's argument is again
         misleading.  What is really clear is that the lower the oxygen
         goes, the faster death comes.  And O2 below 6% is feasible within
         Berg's constraints.  See below.]

           From Figure 6 we see that to reduce the oxygen concentration 
      in the exhaust to just 9%, any Diesel would have to operate at a 
      fuel/air ratio of about 0.040, which corresponds to about 3/4 of 
      full load.  To reduce the oxygen concentration to as low as 6%, 
      which would be the fourth stage according to Henderson and Haggard 
      and would almost certainly be the condition needed to kill "all" 
      members of any intended group of victims, any Diesel would have to 
      operate at a fuel/air ratio of about 0.048, which is close to full 
      load.  In other words, any Diesel gas chamber relying on the 
      reduction of oxygen as a killing method would have to operate at 
      more than 3/4 of full load, but probably closer to full load. 

         [This depends on exactly how Berg is defining "full load".
         See below.]

           From the above it should be obvious that over most of their 
      operating ranges, Diesels discharge sufficient oxygen so that one 
      can literally inhale pure Diesel exhaust and survive on the oxygen 
      in the exhaust.  From idle to at least 3/4 of full load, Diesel 
      exhaust contains sufficient oxygen to sustain human life for at 
      least half an hour.

      [notes]
      22.  Edward F. Obert, _Internal Combustion Engines and Air 
           Pollution_ (New York and London:  Intext Educational Publishers,
           1973), p. 361.

      23.  Y. Henderson & H.W. Haggard, _Noxious Gases_ (New York:
           Reinhold Publishing, 1943), pp. 144-45.

      24.  J.S. Haldane & J.G. Priestly, _Respiration_ (New Haven:  Yale
           University Press, 1935), pp. 223-24.

   

       Berg pays lip service to the idea of dealing with the possibility 
   of looking at combined effects:

   

             An analysis of the combined effects of carbon monoxide, 
         carbon dioxide and reduced oxygen might be possible on the 
         basis of the research of Haldane and Henderson, but it would 
         not give any significantly different results than what has 
         already been concluded on the basis of reduced oxygen acting 
         alone.  The reason is that the carbon monoxide and carbon 
         dioxide levels are just too low to make any difference.

   

       First, one can never make blithe assumptions about the combined 
   effects of substances.  If two different chemicals both have a lethal 
   dose of one gram, that does _not_ necessarily mean that half a gram of 
   each will be equally lethal.  The two substances may work together such 
   that a quarter gram of each is lethal - or one may be an antidote for 
   the other!  And indeed, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are 
   synergistic in effect.
   
       Second, there are additional effects that Berg did not look at.  
   The eyewitness reports (as well as some reports, dismissed as forgeries 
   by the Holocaust deniers) point out the fact that people were packed as 
   tightly in the chambers as possible.  Thus once the chambers were 
   sealed, the people's own consumption of oxygen would be a significant 
   factor.  Berg also completely failed to look at other toxic effects, 
   such as nitrogen oxides, soot, and heat.

       The most significant is nitrogen oxides.  According to p. 189 of
   "Clinical Toxicology" by Clinton Thienes and Thomas Haley, NO2 or
   N2O4 concentrations of 250-500 ppm are "rapidly fatal."  And the
   Holtz-Elliot paper shows NOx concentrations as high as 690 ppm -
   interestingly, at a fuel-air ratio of less than 0.03 and an engine
   speed of 600 RPM.  Unfortunately, the paper does not break down the
   NOx emissions by specific compound.

   In his Usenet article, Berg continues:

      In the Holtz paper I cited from 1960, there are two extremely 
      relevant sections which your challenge has prodded me to notice.  
      I urge you to read them also.  The first section is: 'Engine 
      tests' on pages 68 and 69. 

   

       Let's turn to that other reference that has given Mr. Berg a bit 
   of confusion, the paper by Holtz and Elliot in the 1941 Transactions 
   of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, Vol. 63, Feb. 1941, 
   pp. 97-105.  On page 98, we find exactly the same graph referred to 
   in Berg's note 22.  But on page 99, we find some very interesting 
   numbers - some of the raw data used to generate the graph. 

       Engines A and B in the paper are four-cylinder four-stroke 
   engines. Engine B is rated at a maximum 70 brake horsepower; it has a 
   displacement of 226 cubic inches and maximum RPM of 2600. 

       Remember these crucial words from Berg's paper: "At full load, 
   which corresponds to a fuel/air ratio of 0.055, the oxygen 
   concentration in the exhaust of any Diesel is 4%."  It has already 
   been noted he is on very shaky ground in claiming this was true for
   "any" diesel, when it's clear that this graph was generated from these 
   two _specific_ engines.  But is he right about the rest? 

       Experiment B-12 ran the engine at 1400 RPM at a fuel/air ratio of 
   0.056 (one thousandth more than Berg's 0.55, but one hopes he won't 
   argue that the extra thousandth makes a difference).  Oxygen was 
   3.44%.  The difference between 3.44 and 4 doesn't look like much, but 
   in percentage terms, it's a difference of 14%.

       Is he right about full load?  Well, it depends on what he means 
   by "full load."  If he is talking about maximum rated torque at the 
   given RPM, yes.  But if he's talking about full power output, no.  
   Experiment B-12 was run with a net output of 37.8 HP.

       Is he right about "any diesel?"  Turn to the discusson by H. E. 
   Degler, University of Texas professor of mechanical engineering, on 
   p. 104: 

          "Engine manufacturers and operators have been increasing 
      jacket-water temperatures in recent years, some as high as 212 F at 
      atmospheric pressure, thus taking advantage of the latent-heat 
      cooling effect in addition to the sensible-heat removal.  These 
      higher temperatures will reduce the "chilling effect of direct 
      oxidation reactions," as mentioned by the authors, and assure 
                                                             ^^^^^^
      lower CO, decrease aldehydes, and reduce the free carbon in the
      ^^^^^^^^ 
      engine exhaust.

   So it seems there are some other considerations which affect exhaust 
   gas composition.  Without more information on exactly what kind of 
   engine was used, there's no way of knowing if Soviet diesels used 
   those higher water temperatures.  Yet from two engines Berg thinks he 
   knows what's true for "any diesel." 

       Let's look at some text of the Holtz-Elliot paper on p. 99:

         Although Fig. 2 [the same graph Berg uses as Fig. 6 of his own 
      paper] presents data on exhaust-gas composition at fuel-
      air ratios on the rich side, such conditions of operation are not 
      normal and were obtained in these tests by changing the adjustment 
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      of the stop limiting the travel of the rack on the fuel pump of 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      engine B.  After this change the fuel injected at full throttle was 
      increased by approximately 60 per cent. 

   

   Now, these are out of normal range.  But the technique used was not 
   overloading.  It was adjustment of the fuel system.  And they said 
   nothing about restricting the air intake as was done in experiments
   performed by Pattle et al.  One must wonder what would happen if they 
   tried doing _both_? 


   [Berg:]
      In 1984 I wrote the following in my article on page 38:
          "For all their efforts they would have had an average 
          concentration of less than 0.4% carbon monoxide and more than 4%
          oxygen."

   [Scott Mullins:]
      I'm sorry, but this is simply false. The Elliot-Davis paper that 
      you cite _clearly_ demonstrates that diesel engines can generate 
      CO concentrations of approximately 1.0% and O2 concentrations less 
      than 2.0% at fuel/air ratios _less_than_stoichiometric_. For proof 
      please see figure 4 on page 333 of the Elliot-Davis paper. 

      [Note: "stoichiometric" means the ratio at which there is just 
      enough oxygen to burn all the fuel completely.  That ratio is 
      approximately 0.068 for the Holtz-Elliot paper.  It is also 
      referred to as the "chemically correct ratio."]
       
   [Berg:]
      What I wrote is not false at all. Figure 4 shows some data taken 
      beyond the normal operating range of the engine.  From the upper 
      limit of the normal operating range to stoichiometric, there is 
      still quite a stretch. Read Elliott and Davis again.  You can only 
      get to stoichiometric by operating at GREATER than FULL LOAD.  
      Read pages 334 and 335. 


       Our old friend, Fig. 6 from Berg's paper, shows up in this reference 
   (Elliot-Davis) as well (they call it Fig. 2).  But Elliot-Davis doesn't 
   have the raw data found in the older Holtz-Elliot paper. 

       Let's look at that raw data, specifically experiment B-70 at the top 
   of p. 99 in the Holtz-Elliot paper.  The fuel/air ratio is 0.07 (greater 
   than the chemically correct ratio).  The speed is 1400 RPM.  What is the 
   load?  Is it indeed "GREATER than FULL LOAD?"

       Well, again it depends on what Berg means by this.  The power 
   output is only 40.20HP (70 maximum).

       What is the exhaust composition?  CO 0.7% - very bad.  CO2 13.8%  
   (Getting worse - CO and CO2 are synergistic, something Berg completely 
   failed to mention in his paper.) 

       What is the oxygen content?  Oxygen content is down to 0.8%.  
   Forget the carbon monoxide.  An atmosphere with less than 1% oxygen 
   kills all by itself.  

       Mr. Berg has volunteered to breathe diesel exhaust to show how 
   safe it is.  One wonders if he would still willing to do that if the 
   exhaust composition were set to less than one percent oxygen and he
   were stuck in a fairly small chamber so he starts using up the 
   existing oxygen relatively quickly.  (This was the situation at 
   Treblinka, where people were crammed like sardines into the 
   chambers). 

       For all of Berg's claims of how difficult it is to obtain such 
   fuel-air ratios, Holtz and Elliot seemed to have no trouble doing it.
   Berg cannot get around that fact.


   [Berg:]
      If you operate above the Normal Operating Range of fuel/air 
      ratios, you produce excessive quantities of smoke rapidly. That is 
      why I referred to the discussion by E.W. Landen at the end of the 
      Elliott and Davis paper and why I included his diagram as well.  
      At fuel/air ratios beyond about 0.055, the smoke "solid" line 
      becomes almost vertical and that means, according to Landen on 
      page 346: "short engine life." 

   

       Berg still can't understand that there were literally thousands 
   of surplus Soviet engines available.  Wear and damage were not a 
   source of worry.  This engine's dead?  Oh well, hook up the next one 
   and start killing Jews again. 

       And HOW short?  Ten minutes?  A week?  A month?  A year?  Berg 
   doesn't say.  Why not? 

       But is he even right in the first place about the amount of 
   smoke?  Again, let's turn to Holtz and Elliot, page 101: 

       TABLE 4           FREE CARBON IN THE EXHAUST GASES FROM ENGINE B

                         Free carbon in dry exhaust gases
       Fuel-air ratio    Lb per lb                Lb per 1000
        lb per lb         of fuel                   cu ft
          0.01             0.060                    0.047
          0.02             0.034                    0.053
          0.03             0.019                    0.046
          0.04             0.021                    0.068
          0.05             0.029                    0.117
          0.06             0.044                    0.213
          0.07             0.066                    0.361
          0.08             0.091                    0.576


       Let's look at that graph on solid components of smoke Berg talks 
   about.  At a fuel/air ratio of 0.05, the graph shows 4 grams 
   exhausted solid material per hour.  At about 0.57, the graph shows 
   above 16 grams - more than a factor of four. 
   
       Is that true?  Look at the numbers above.  At 0.05, the middle 
   column shows 0.029.  At 0.06 fuel-air ratio, the middle column shows 
   0.044.  That's only 1.5 times the 0.05 output, not four times!  Even at 
   0.07, the output is only 2.3 times as much as the 0.05 output.

       So something appears to be wrong with the graph Berg uses.  
   Either it was done wrong, or done from different engines than in the 
   Holtz-Elliot paper.

       Scott Mullins pointed out why it was done wrong.  The graph Berg 
   cites had its units in grams per hour - that is, the total output by 
   weight.  But Berg has cackled gleefully about how it's the percentage 
   of CO in exhaust that determines lethality, not total volume.   (An 
   oversimplification, by the way - there are other factors such as 
   pressure.)  Thus he should know very well that it is the percentage 
   of soot in the exhaust which gives short engine life, not the gross 
   amount - especially since his _own reference_ makes this point. 

       Berg is _definitely_ distorting Landen by quoting out of context 
   - another technique of Holocaust denial.  Let's turn to page 346 of 
   the Elliot-Davis paper, and see the _entire_ context of the words 
   "short engine life." 

       "[T]he quantities of material sticking in an engine in the form of 
   deposits amounts to possibly 0.0001% or 0.01% of the fuel burned.  
   The 0.0001% figure corresponds to an engine with a normal life while 
   the 0.01% figure means short engine life due to heavy deposits."  
   Now, this is the percentage _sticking_ in the engine, not the percent 
   exhausted, and again it is a percentage of fuel burned, not total 
   volume per hour.  So Berg's graph is another red herring.  Note that 
   even if the amount of soot as a percentage of fuel burned were 
   _constant_, when measured in grams per hour, doubling the fuel/air
   ratio will double the _weight_ of output.

       There are other solid components besides carbon, but on page 100 
   of the Holtz-Elliot paper it is shown that even at a high fuel/air 
   ratio, carbon makes up 99.1% of the soot.


   [Berg:]
      There is some technical complexity to this subject matter,

       True.  Berg hopes people will be dazzled by his science and take his 
   word for everything he says, not checking up on him thinking it's too 
   complicated to understand.


   [Berg:]
      Exterminationists who have enormous resources available to them 
      have been too lazy--to put it as mildly as one imagine. 

       Here is the work.  Berg was right about one thing - everyone just 
   assumed that since it was an engine, it must have been carbon 
   monoxide.  It's one of those things that "everone knows."  The 
   problem was, the Nazi killers disposed of the evidence. 

       The courts and the historians believed the witnesses that gassing 
   happened.  They were lawyers and historians, not diesel engineers.  
   No, things weren't up to the standard of forensics used in modern 
   American courts.  But that doesn't prove that the gassing didn't 
   happen.  All it proves is that the exact cause of death may have 
   been a little different than what people thought. 


   [Berg:]
      Before you accuse someone of murder, make sure you have a murder 
      weapon that makes sense.  

       Sophistry.  Murder doesn't make sense period.  But it happened.  
   It happened at Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec.  It happened at 
   Auschwitz.  It happened to the Armenians.  It happened to millions of 
   kulaks starved to death during Stalin's forced collectivizations.  It 
   happened in Cambodia, in Rwanda.

       The Nazis tried diesels because they were available.  They 
   probably never realized how stupid they were.  It made sense to the 
   people who did it.  It worked.  That's all they needed or cared to 
   know.  They were killers, not diesel engineers. 


   [Berg:]
      Surely, you must agree that to make a lethal Diesel gas chamber, a 
      lot more is involved than simply connecting the exhaust pipe of a 
      Diesel-driven tank or truck to a closed room.  Otherwise, just 
      headaches. 

      Surely you must agree that to make a lethal Diesel gas chamber, a 
      lot more is involved than simply turning an adjustment screw 
      somewhere on the Diesel engine.  Otherwise, just headaches. 

   

       Or asphyxiation, or death by pulmonary edema due to NOx 
   poisoning, or some combination of toxic effects.  Berg should have 
   read the Holtz and Elliot paper, and should have done more research 
   on toxicology as well.  To make a scientific case, a lot more is 
   involved than simply reading one graph based on two engines and
   handwaving through the toxicology.


   [Berg:]
      Surely, you must also agree that to make a lethal Diesel gas 
      chamber, a lot more is involved than simply restricting the air 
      intake to the engine.  Otherwise, a barely noticeable effect. (See 
      my tabulation from Henderson and Haggard.) 

       Holtz and Elliot show it's quite possible.  Pfannenstiel noticed 
   an effect.  He called it asphyxiation.  Gerstein noticed an effect.  
   He called it death.  The Jews - well, they noticed too, but that was 
   the last thing they ever noticed. 


   [Berg:]
      The fact, which you may indeed never concede (and that is entirely 
      up to you), is that any Diesel gaschamber method is absurd. 

       Mass murder is absurd by any method.  But it happens.  After 
   reading Holtz and Elliot, and looking more deeply into the toxicology, 
   it becomes clear that it may not be the best method available, but it 
   is feasible.


   [Berg:]
      Can anyone really believe the Germans would have used Diesel 
      exhaust as a source of CO, when they had 18% to 35% CO?  These 
      were essentially the same people who built the first jet and 
      rocket-propelled fighter airplanes, the first ballistic missiles, 
      who also invented the gasoline engine, Diesel engine and even the 
      automobile. 

       Yes, but they weren't the ones building the gas chambers.  Berg is 
   dishonestly trying to slip past the idea that every German knew as much 
   as every other German about all these technical issues.  The rocket 
   scientists were off at Peenemunde building, well, rockets.  What did 
   Wirth and Globocnik do before the war?  Were they diesel engineers?

       Berg's argument only carries weight if the people who were trying 
   to use diesels _knew_ that they were a bad choice.

       In fact, Berg argues out of both sides of his mouth.  On the one 
   hand, he tells us how terribly, terribly complicated it is to change 
   the composition of the exhaust gas of a diesel, proving the murderers 
   couldn't possibly have done it.  On the other hand, he tells us how 
   brilliant German scientists and engineers were, proving - they 
   couldn't possibly have done it!? 

       Well, no.  Not quite.  Berg argues they _wouldn't_ have done it, 
   because there were better methods.  His reason tells him that his way 
   is the best, and the Nazis would have done things only in the best 
   way, so any other story is a "dirty Jewish hoax."  However, as the 
   eminent revisionist historian Greg Raven, associate editor of the 
   Journal for Historical Review (which Berg tells people to buy all the 
   time) says: 

       "It is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
       certain way because your 'reason' demands it."

       With Berg's "better method" (the producer gas-powered vehicles 
   which put out 18% to 35% CO), not only was there so high a 
   concentration of CO that explosion was a danger (as he himself 
   admitted with no recognition of its significance in an unquoted part 
   of his Usenet article), but also that the vehicles in question  had 
   an alternative use, as vehicles.  The diesel engines from captured 
   Soviet tanks had no productive use - while the German army did use 
   some captured tanks, they were hardly able even to keep up with the 
   repair demand for their own tanks, and thousands of Soviet tanks sat 
   in place for the duration of the war.  Furthermore, diesel fuel is 
   cheaper to make than gasoline - it's not so highly refined.  So when 
   Berg argues that there were better methods, he's only talking from a 
   technical standpoint.  When looked at from the viewpoint of an 
   economist, suddenly it makes a _lot_ more sense. 

                    *******************************

       So for all his intellectual arrogance, Berg does not analyze 
   things completely - he doesn't look at _all_ aspects of the question. 

       That's the scientific end and analytical end.  But there's 
   another, more important aspect.  There were witnesses.  Berg ignores 
   the testimonies of Gerstein, of Pfannenstiel, of Suchomel, of Fuchs.  
   He says they must be liars or lunatics or victims of torture or 
   coercion. 

       Suchomel appeared on camera for Lanzmann's documentary "Shoah" 
   and didn't deny anything.  He could have simply refused to appear.  
   Did the filmmaker torture him? 

       Gerstein tried to get the story out _during the war_.  He told 
   the Swedish that Jews were being killed at Belzec, Sobibor, and 
   Treblinka.  He told trusted friends that killing was going on.  So 
   how did the Soviets torture him into doing that? 

       Pfannenstiel testified many times, and as Berg's own paper notes, 
   his testimony always supported the Gerstein statement.  Berg actually 
   oversimplified - Pfannenstiel contradicted Gerstein on some details, 
   but not about gassing. 

       Because Berg has a scientific "theory" that "proves" that diesel 
   gas chambers are "stupid," all eyewitness testimony is dismissed. 

       Well, someone once "proved" that bumblebees cannot possibly fly.  
   Do you see bumblebees walking everywhere? 

       When facts contradict his theory, Berg revises the facts.  He is 
   no honest scientist.

       Has this paper proved that gassing did occur at Treblinka with 
   diesel engines?  No.  It has only proved that contrary to Berg's 
   claims, there is sufficient reason to believe that it is technically
   possible.  To try to claim any more would be to engage in the 
   same violation of scientific principles that Berg commits.


   Referenced works:

   Berg, Friedrich Paul: "The Diesel Gas Chambers: Myth Within a Myth,"
   Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 5 No. 1.

   -- Usenet alt.revisionism article <2vt3du$t0b@mary.iia.org>, "Diesel
   A, B, C's and Scott Mullins," 12 July 1994.

   Elliot, Martin and Davis, Rogers: "Composition of Diesel Exhaust 
   Gas," SAE Quarterly Transactions, July 1950.

   Elliot, Martin and Holtz, John: "The Significance of Diesel-Exhaust-Gas
   Analysis," Transactions of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, 
   Vol. 63, Feb. 1941.

   Friedlander, Saul: "Counterfeit Nazi: The Ambiguity of Good" 
   (Knopf, New York, 1969).

   Pattle et al, "The Toxicity of Fumes from a Diesel Engine Under Four
   Different Running Conditions," British Journal of Industrial 
   Medicine, Vol. 14, 1957.

   Thienes, Clinton and Haley, Thomas: "Clinical Toxicology," (Lea &
   Febiger, Philadelphia, 1972).





>But then are you not the person who discovered a kind of fat with more
>than 900 calories per gram?  

    I am certainly not the person who discovered this fact.  It has been
known for a long time.  Why do you not know about it?

    Check the nutrition labels in the lunch meat section.  Check the
bottle of olive oil a few aisles over.  You will find that every kind of
fat has approximately 9 calories per gram, rounded up to the nearest
calorie. 

    But next you should check the dictionary definition of "calorie." 
There are two kinds: the small calorie, also known as a gram calorie, and
the large calorie, equal to 1,000 gram calories (i.e., 1 kilocalorie). The
kind of calorie used on a nutrition label is a large calorie, a
kilocalorie.  Do not take my word for it, please.  Check your Webster's.
I'll wait.

    I have always tried to make this point when discussing the topic so
that it is clear that I am talking about gram calories.  If you have not
been playing some sort of deceptive game here, and have not been
illiterately misreading my words, then you have been ignorant of a
scientific fact that even I knew. 

    I did the math and found that from the nutrition label I looked at,
which gives grams of fat in a serving and calories derived from fat, that
one gram of fat contains about 8.6 dietary calories which is to say 8.6
kcal which is to say 8,600 gram calories (small calories). Yes, Virginia,
8,600 gram calories is more than 900 gram calories, but I cannot claim
credit for this amazing discovery. 

    I admit to having trusted the nutrition labels without performing an
experiment in a calorimeter myself. If that makes me a holohugger for
trusting dubious Soviet nutrition sources so be it.  But if you have
evidence that this is wrong you should certainly alert the Food and Drug
Administration. 

    Now do you want to have a serious discussion about energy required for
cremation or are you going to play games?

    I am not emailing them, but I do hope that Ehrlich606 and DavidThomas
are taking notes here.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul  4 07:43:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48158 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: 3 Jul 1996 19:14:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <4reuro$fg2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r5snv$180@news1.io.org> <4r99kd$8ks@access5.digex.net> <31D92C66.1A60@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

    Posted and emailed.

In article <31D92C66.1A60@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>     Well, while Mr. Giwer is waiting for Alec to get unbusy, perhaps he would
>> like to occupy himself with a computation of the number of calories required
>> to deal with the water in igniting a 70kg corpse.  Or perhaps he will point
>
>Inconsequential. You challenge Matt on something that he will ignore.

    What?  But we've been hearing so much about how Matt wants to get the
discussion back on track - and I'm not talking about Matt's own comments.
I'm talking about people like DavidThomas and Ehrlich606 who have defended
Mr. Giwer.  Are you trying to tell me these fine upstanding gentlemen are
wrong?



>I wonder why this is taking so long to settle when anybody who barbecues
>reularly can tell you that even lean meat that's been marinaded will
>produce enough fat and self-heating to cook itself into a complete char.
>That meat is far leaner than even a starved human (humans die when their
>fat level drops that low).

    Oh, geez.  You're talking _experiments_.  Don't you know that when
theory conflicts with observation, the observations must be revised to fit
the theory?  That's (revisionist) SCIENCE!!!!! 


>I often did batch barbecuing by bringing the lava rock (gas BBQ) to
>heat, starting on the 1st batch and continuing thru several batches,
>turning down the flames to minimal halfway thru the first batch. The fat
>cooked the rest and I had to control the amount of heat by using a
>squirt bottle with water.
>
>Then we simply froze the extra and had ready-to-heat meat beautifully
>BBQ'd.
>
>Empirical and easy-to-verify experimental evidence.

    We only have your unsupported assertion.  I demand physical evidence. 
Email me some of that meat.  I will personally verify your claim of how
beautifully BBQ'd it is.  Better send some of the sauce as well.
Experiments must be reproducible, AS YOU KNOW.


>BTW - the water chimera is just that. The water in our tissues is
>measured by including the bound Hydrogen monoxide in the fat, which
>contains a large component of the water in our tissue.

    SHHHHH!  No help from the studio audience!

    Yes, he wanted to factor the water out and claim that only ~20% of a
fat cell counted as burnable fat, so that he could reduce the energy
released by burning a corpse.  And our superscientist even seems confused
about the difference between a gram calorie and a dietary calorie (kcal).

    But he said he could do the computations, so I have invited him to do
just that.  He said I deleted them, yet nobody seems to be able to find
them.  Of course, what he doesn't know is ... oh, but it's too soon for
that.  All things ripen in their own time.



>> out the many errors in the rebuttal I wrote to Friedrich Berg's work.  
>
>Keep it simple with Matt. It makes bluffing harder for him.

    Well, I just keep repeating it.  The way he keeps ignoring it should
clue most people in to the fact that he's bluffing.  I am not really that
interested in nuking Matt, you see.  He makes excellent bait.  Until some
revisionist shows up to have that serious discussion, free of lies and
intellectual dishonesty, what is there to do here but fish? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul  4 07:43:34 PDT 1996
Article: 48161 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!news.dfci.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:41:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4resue$eds@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4rbmcr$qa1@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4rcdhb$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ree8s$611@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48161 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57716 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:119 alt.usenet.kooks:26377

In article <4ree8s$611@bell.maths.tcd.ie>,
Derek Bell  wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>>	How's about calling Ken by his proper name?
>>	What do you think his name is?
>
>	I'd imagine ``McVay'', as it is his surname. (I assume you meant his
>surname and yes, I have seen _Back to the Future_, so I do know the reference
>you made.)

    No, Gordon is the first name of the person Mr. Giwer calls McFly. 
When he isn't calling him Marduk, that is.  Mr. Giwer sometimes has
difficulties telling people apart and keeping them straight.  It's a damn
good thing Mr. Giwer wasn't here when revisionist Tim McCarthy was
posting.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul  4 07:43:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48176 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:36:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4reskn$e6u@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4ran89$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ran89$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
 wrote:
>    Just stop it all and get this back to a discussion of revisionism
>without all the crap you exterminationists have introduced over the
>years.  This is not your conference.  It is for revisionist discussion.
>
>
>    You do not have to leave.  You can contribute by critiquing the
>revisionist proposals.  You folks will be doing a service in that
>regard.  
>
>    The choice is yours.  When it all stops there will be nothing for me
>to respond to.  Therefore it stops.  It is all that simple.

    When revisionists stop doctoring evidence and using other
intellectually dishonest methods, I cannot promise that all the
namecalling will stop, but I can guarantee that it will drop dramatically.


>    And you better get that word to everyone here and to all the
>newcomers as quickly as possible.  
>
>	I accept no excuses.  

    If you can get the word to the revisionists about intellectual honesty
you will be doing a great service to revisionism.  This is not the first
time I have made this point.  For every example you can cite of where some
orthodox historian has omitted something you may think relevant and
contrary to his or her thesis, I am sure I can come up with half a dozen
examples from revisionists, and far more blatant.  One of them had some of
your text on his website last time I looked - see if Greg Raven is willing
to discuss with you the way he paraphrased the comments of Pressac about
the testimony of SS Pvt. Bo"ck. 

    What kind of debunking is it that needs to doctor evidence?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Jul  4 07:43:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48184 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer trolls about Nizkor, again
Date: 4 Jul 1996 07:49:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4rgb3d$bk8@access1.digex.net>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48184 alt.censorship:87448 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:120 alt.usenet.kooks:26381

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer has consistently repeated the lie that Nizkor censors things.
>> >What things we censor, he has been pretty vague about.
>
>Case in point is Giwer's catch-me-if-you-can reply:
>
>> There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>> mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>> Nizkor.  Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>> and says he found no such mention.  Therefore the material is censored.
>> 
>> Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>> this?  All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>> time you folks are unable to find those mentions.
>
>Mr. Giwer, please post the names and email address of, say, three of
>these "at least a dozen people."  I will contact them and have them
>explain to me where they think they saw these mentions of Hoess' trials.
>I think that no one knows the layout of Nizkor better than Ken McVay and
>myself;  if I cannot clear this up, I will ask Mr. McVay and we will
>figure out what is going on.
>
>My prediction of what is going on:  Giwer is flat-out lying, as he has
>done many times in the past
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
>
>and as he will continue to do in the future.  Giwer is claiming that
>Nizkor "censors" by editing its own files (!)

    No, he is trying to insinuate it.

    He claims the material is censored, but I do not remember seeing a
direct claim that you or Ken is editing the files, only an insinuation
that you might delete inconvenient files.

    Remember his claim that saving a post without the entire thread makes
it dishonestly out of context and lacking in integrity.  I think he is
simply claiming that if you don't have the entire book on Nizkor it is
censored.

    He's trolling.  Remember that always.  His purpose is not to
communicate, but to deceive.  He gets his jollies using words in deceptive
ways and making people bite.  However, as Alec noted, he gets sloppy. 
Apparently he was better in the past. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Jul  4 17:22:21 PDT 1996
Article: 48303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer trolls about Nizkor, for the last time
Date: 4 Jul 1996 17:28:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 175
Message-ID: <4rhd1u$esp@access1.digex.net>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4re5ou$och@access5.digex.net> <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48303 alt.censorship:87510 alt.usenet.kooks:26405


    Oh, hell with it, let's end the game.

In article <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, 
>> wrote:
>>>	There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>>>mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>>>Nizkor.  Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>>>and says he found no such mention.  Therefore the material is censored.

    Now I will point out the fact that Matt lied here.

    I never said that I found no _mention_.  My precise words (and my
words are almost always _precise_) were:


Date:         1996/06/12

    Not even Altavista can find what does not exist.  But you know that.
I searched for all files mentioning "Rudenko" to look for verification of
the story that Rudenko lost the first case against Hoess, which you said
you found on Nizkor.  No such file.


Date:         1996/06/20

    However, I have an account on Nizkor, and I _can_ search the files by
content.  When Giwer claimed that there was a file on Nizkor saying that
Rudenko lost one case against Hoess for lack of evidence, I did a
case-insensitive search on "Ruden" and "enko" (to catch any line breaks in
the middle of the word).  No file which turned up in that search matched
Giwer's description of what he had read.


    Please keep the precise words I used in mind.  They are important,
because (as Mr. Giwer has told us) words have meanings.


>>    That is a very bizarre definition of censored.  Nizkor does not contain
>>all material related to the Holocaust and makes no claim that it does.  There
>>are financial, logistical and legal problems with doing that.
>>Material cannot be put on Nizkor until someone has read it.
>
>>    Except in the psychological definition, censorship carries the
>>connotation of a conscious intent to conceal information.  And even on the
>>psychological definition, there has to be some opportunity for awareness
>>before the censorship can truly be said to exist.
>
>>    Hilberg is unfamiliar with many books about the Holocaust just as I am
>>confident that Mr. Giwer is unfamiliar with books about physics - _nobody_
>>has the time to read everything that is published on a topic.  Ken McVay is
>>certainly no exception, nor am I.
>
>>    If a library is unaware of a book, it is not censoring the book by not
>>carrying it.  If it would like to buy it but ran out of funds before it could
>>be purchased, that is not censorship either by any reasonable use of the
>>word.
>
>>    Why is Altavista unable to find the information on a revisionist site? 
>>Would Mr. Giwer agree that Zundel's site and Bradley Smith's site and Greg
>>Raven's site are also censored, then?  One would certainly think they would
>>play the information up for all it's worth - yet they don't seem to have it
>>either, not if "Rudenko" should yield a match.
>
>
>>>	Do I have to create another riddle to help you figure out how I know
>>>this?  All of those dozen people know exactly what I claim is true every
>>>time you folks are unable to find those mentions.
>
>>This is what Mr. Giwer wrote originally:
>
>>
>
>>        You really should search off of the "guess the filename"
>>possibilities to discover that General Rudenko lost the case
>>against the infamous Rudolph Hoess on charges of gassing for lack
>>of evidence of gassing from the people who were there at the
>>time.
>> 
>>        You will find the supporting evidence for this assertion on the
>>Nizkor site and including in the EYEWITNESS testimony of an
>>investigator of war crimes.  
>
>>
>
>>(Source:
>>    http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1879190&server=dnserver.dbapr)
>> 
>>    The original wording of the claim certainly conveyed the impression he
>>had read the original information on Nizkor.  
>
>	That is your assumption.  
>
>	The following is a riddle.  
>
>	I did not originally read it there but I know it is there.  How do I
>know?  

    Because it is in your own reposts of Al Gentile's articles, of course,
and it was archived.  I knew that before I wrote my previous article.
But I know something else you don't know.

    You screwed up the troll, Matt.  Twice.  You said the supporting
_evidence_ was on Nizkor.  First, by your own definition, what you and Al
Gentile say is not "evidence." In fact, because it is unsworn, it is not
even evidence in the legal sense.  So either you lied or you now accept
that testimony is evidence after all.

    The second and worse screwup is that you said that the evidence was in
the _eyewitness testimony_ by a war crimes investigator.  Read Al
Gentile's statement again, carefully.  I'll wait. 

    Did you catch where you blew it?  Nowhere did Gentile say he witnessed
this trial by Rudenko.  Therefore not even unsworn eyewitness testimony to
this first Hoess trial exists on Nizkor.  Nothing was censored, but the
_evidence_ you claim should be there is not there.  At best there is some
hearsay - but you know that is not the same thing.  (And notice that
Gentile went on to make the false statement that Hoess never wrote
anything.) 

    You lied, Matt.  Twice - once on the evidence being in the eyewitness
testimony of a war crimes investigator, and once on the censorship.  It's
that simple.  Your alleged dozen people can't know what you claim is true,
because it isn't true.  You trolled, but you screwed up.

    You lied a third time when you said I found no _mention_.  I did not
say that.  I very precisely said the first time that I looked for
_verification_.  No such file.  Of course I found the _story_.  But
Gentile's story, which did not claim to be eyewitness testimony and gave
no references, cannot verify itself.  You know that. 

    The second time I very precisely said that it did not match your
_description_, which was:

>>        You will find the supporting evidence for this assertion on the
>>Nizkor site and including in the EYEWITNESS testimony of an
>>investigator of war crimes.

    Again, I found the Gentile story.  But it was not eyewitness testimony
to the "first" Hoess trial, nor a reference to proper documentation, and
therefore not _supporting evidence_.  Therefore, just as I said, the file
did not match your _description_.  If you are claiming the Gentile story
as support for your assertion, then you are supported only by another
assertion - which is to say, no support at all.

    But not once did I say that I found no _mention_.  When you wrote,
"Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site and says he
found no such mention," you openly lied about what I had said. 

    Therefore you are a lying troll exactly as many people have been
saying for some time now.  This is not an attack. This is a simple
statement of fact.  I cannot change that.  Only you can change that. 


[snip]

    As I said last time:

>>    It should be noted that Mr. Giwer appears to have misread text on
>>multiple occasions.  For that reason alone it would be irresponsible to
>>accept what he says here as true without independent confirmation.

    You are an _incompetent_ and _illiterate_ lying troll.  I cannot
change that, either.  Neither can you, I suspect.

    Oh, and since you fell for _my_ troll hook, line, and sinker, you are
also a brainless fish.  Sorry, Charlie. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Jul  5 06:39:10 PDT 1996
Article: 48414 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Alec Grynspan
Date: 4 Jul 1996 18:16:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4rhfre$fvo@access1.digex.net>
References: <4r5crt$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31D92C66.1A60@gryn.org> <4rc2hm$quk@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31DA7D47.9A@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <31DA7D47.9A@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Precisely Mr. Stein's point, I would think. The longer troll
>> ignores the issue, the more obvious it will become - with
>> regard to the public record - that the troll is either
>> unwilling or unable to address issues of substance -
>> particularly issues of substance that he, himself has
>> previously raised and then avoided, when things got too sticky
>> for him.
>
>You play the wrong game here. What Matt is after has little to do with
>the issues raised, even if he doesn't realize it himself.

    I am not about to change my objectives just to frustrate Matt.  If he
and I are seeking different payoffs, what matters to me is getting my
payoff.  My payoff does not consist of frustrating his payoff, though that
may well happen as a byproduct.


>> This will, in the long run, prove damaging to whatever shred
>> of credibility remains to the fellow. It matters not one whit
>> whether or not he answers - it matters only that he was asked.
>> It is the public record which counts, and only the public record.
>> It is, after all, the public who will determine the merit, or
>> lack of same, of any participant here.
>
>You play to the local public - the silent lurkers. Matt drives them away
>and plays to another audience - elsewhere.

    I hope they enjoyed the show today.



>You think that his credibility (or loss of same), here, is significant
>to Matt. 
>
>That is your error.

    I knew it was not long ago.  Anyone concerned with their credibility
would have been long gone by now.  But as I told you before, Matt makes
good bait for a particular species of fish.  He serves a purpose he does
not realize, at least until the pond is fished out.  And he did catch two
legitimate errors, one by the Tusas and one by Conot.  A minuscule
contribution, given his posting volume, but a contribution nonetheless. 


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Jul  5 10:03:24 PDT 1996
Article: 48435 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.stealth.net!demos!news1.relcom.ru!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No surprise
Date: 4 Jul 1996 18:42:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4rhhcc$gel@access1.digex.net>
References: <4qdqfe$i3f@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31D31C10.2EAA@unb.ca> <4r995e$87q@access5.digex.net> <31DAC7FC.7504@alaska.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <31DAC7FC.7504@alaska.net>, Henry Ayre   wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>> And blank lines have appeared many times in my posts.
>> 
>
>
>Indeed, the most profound statements emanating from Michael are to be 
>found in the blank lines. Ignore the lines with typing in them, they are 
>hopelessly garbled. H. Ayre.

    I've had better mindless insults from my Rice Krispies.  And that was
_before_ I poured on the milk.

    If our professional thinker would like to discuss anything with me he
has only to come to the table with evidence and logic.  He has for some
reason never gotten around to doing that.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul  5 10:03:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48439 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 5 Jul 1996 10:33:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4rj936$me9@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rco4k$ioo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>Matt Stein has also pointed out that it's a forgery,
 ^^^^
    Stein != Giwer.

    My attorneys will be in touch about your clearly tortable libel. 

    - MIKE Stein
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Fri Jul  5 17:49:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48485 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 5 Jul 1996 19:10:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4rk7dp$fdm@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net> <4JUL199612343251@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31dd2517.262925@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <31dd2517.262925@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>Message-ID: <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> Tom Moran wrote:
>>
>>         Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
>>         "Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
>>         Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.
>>
>>    OK, here is another example:
>>
>
>	Mr.Mittleman's simple inclusion of the identified post deleted.
> 
>>In article <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>  
>	To which he simply says:
>
>>     "Fish in a barrel, Zeyde."
>
>	Evidentally Mr.Mittleman has a problem with the empirical
>approach to determining something.

    Evidently Mr. Moran doesn't really understand the word "empirical." 
In order to determine Mr. Moran's views, we must read what he writes.
That is the empirical approach, and that is what Mr. Mittleman is doing
and inviting everyone else to do.


>What he sees it as is, all he has
>to do is say something, and it is so. Mr.Mittleman has offered nothing
>to show whatever he uses as examples is proof of his accusations. He's
>so curt. 

    It is an argumentum ad res ipsa loquitur, Tommy.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Fri Jul  5 17:49:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 5 Jul 1996 19:04:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4rk713$fbj@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>Paragraphs 11, 12 and 13.
>
>>The Holocaust: A Guide for Pennsylvania Teachers
>>
>>This guide, written in 1990 at the University of Pennsylvania aims to
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>bring to educators basic texts on the Holocaust and related subjects
>>along with ideas on how to bring them to the understanding of their
>>students. All educators should look into this guide, as should anyone
>>who is interested in getting a basic knowledge in Holocaust studies.
>
>	Who do these people think they are getting involved with the
>American education system?

    You're right, Tommy!  Those foreigners should go back to Pennslyvania
where they belong!


>These are the same people who committ
>themselves to closing down Palestinian schools and universities.

    Don't you mean "Philadelphian schools and universities?"


>Their
>only motive is to introduce Zionist propaganda into our education
>systems. And here we have this element being accomodated by this goofy
>Nizkor and it's evident idiotic staff of McVay, McCarthy and Hilary,
>and the phantom directors that finance the site.  

    Nice to see that Tom Moran doesn't engage in that nasty
holocausterclonism practice of labeling and namecalling.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul  5 17:49:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48494 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: 5 Jul 1996 11:42:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4rjd51$phn@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rcvl0$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31da841d.657452@news.pacificnet.net> <4rhbce$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rhbce$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>	"Off topic". Thats the new thing Stein is trying. Green is on to
>>this "off topic" topic also. It so rediculous. Typical. The usual. 
>>	The facts are Nizkor and all the rest of their amen corner, or
>>vice versa are obsessed with "hate" groups.
>>	These persons would like to play a game. 
>
>	There is clearly no consistency in their position.

    No, there is no consistency in your position.  If you want to get the
newsgroup back on track as you define the track, I will point out that you
are being inconsistent and hypocritical when you post articles off what
you have declared is the track.

    "Hypocrisy is not a nice thing to see." - Matt Giwer


>They feel they can introduce Stormfront yet not let the JDL be
>introduced.  This is truly a Jewish thing.

    Mr. Giwer feels he can call for the newsgroup to get back on track yet
not stay on track himself.  This is truly a trollish thing.  Though as I
showed yesterday, Mr. Giwer is a very incompetent troll - he thought he
was showing how much smarter he was than the rest of us with the Rudenko
thing, but he botched his wording so as to make it false, and lied about
my statements, which were true.  All he managed to show was what a truly
brainless fish he is.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul  6 08:00:34 PDT 1996
Article: 48522 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 5 Jul 1996 12:00:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4rje6r$qdm@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4qvge0$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48522 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:131

In article <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
>how to stop it all?  

    If you want people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
lying and stop trolling.  That is _my_ description of how to stop it all. 
It is that simple.

    Especially since you are not even competent at trolling.  Words have
meanings, and you screwed up big time on your wording on the thing about
Rudenko and the two trials of Hoess.  And you misread and lied about my
statements.  Maybe you need to go back and reread Korzybski - not that I
seriously think it will help.

    Learning some material about the Holocaust would be nice as well. 
Perhaps someday you can figure out which buildings were where, and had
what features.  You obviously haven't got it right yet.  Were you in the
"slow readers" group as a child?  When you get your facts straight, even
as far as the physical evidence which _is_ there on the ground (the
buildings themselves) then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the
subject.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul  6 08:00:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: 5 Jul 1996 11:00:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4rjan9$nji@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rg669$p7h@news.ios.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rg669$p7h@news.ios.com>,
Mary Kravits   wrote:
>
> You started two world wars and still you claim to be human. Your people 
>are barbaric and should be caged like the animals you are. Because of 
>your evil you should be made to serve man as slaves for a thousand 
>years,Jews should get first crack.

    I think we have enough trolls on this newsgroup already, thank you.
Take a number and we'll call you when it's time for your turn.

    Posted and emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul  6 08:00:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48550 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JDL, Terrorists
Date: 5 Jul 1996 11:26:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4rjc7v$oqo@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4rcvl0$fge@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31da841d.657452@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31da841d.657452@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4raqv9$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>>> mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> >In article <4ra1ot$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> >>      From their own website...
>>>> >>
>>>> >>[snip]
>>>> >>
>>>> >>The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League
>>>> >>are Jewish sources. 
>>>> >>
>>>> >>      Don't bother calling me antisemitic for pointing out their own words
>>>> >>from their own site.  We all know that it what it is.
>>>> 
>>>> >    Yes.  Off-topic.  I thought you wanted to get this newsgroup back on
>>>> >track?
>
>
>	"Off topic". Thats the new thing Stein is trying. Green is on to
>this "off topic" topic also. It so rediculous. Typical. The usual. 

    Tommy, could you please explain to me how, if I am trying a new thing,
it can also be "typical" and "the usual?"  I really, really, really would
like an explanation of that one.

    My response was based on what Mr. Giwer claimed his purpose was.  I
was pointing out that his post was not consistent with what he said his
purpose was.  I was responding to Mr. Giwer, Tommy, not you.  Didn't you
complain before about people butting in on your conversations?  Don't you
think Mr. Giwer is capable of speaking for himself?


>	The facts are Nizkor and all the rest of their amen corner, or
>vice versa are obsessed with "hate" groups.

    "Vice versa?"

    Nizkor _does_ have a folder for the JDL under the "Organizations" 
section, but there's only one thing in it.  I do consider them extremists,
and I think they should be tracked more carefully.  Thank you for the
suggestion.  I will pass it on to Ken McVay. 


>	These persons would like to play a game. 

    Quite right, Tommy.  But I don't think you know how to play Go.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sat Jul  6 08:00:37 PDT 1996
Article: 48602 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 5 Jul 1996 18:54:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4rk6eb$f74@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31da9615.5257091@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <31da9615.5257091@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	Nizkor also has a link to "N.J. Commission on Holocaust
>Education" which is not available at the moment. We will just have to
>wait for this one. I recall there being some resistance to this
>reported, with one of the resistance movement citing some new figures
>of 5,000,000 Jewish victims being put forth, and a Jew bluster
>demanding that they should leave it at 6,000,000 anyway.

    Yes, Tommy, but you also recalled some Jewish group trying to get the
menorah declared a secular symbol.  I recall a Tommy bluster about how
we were all going to be sorry when you found your documentation.  But
you never did, did you?  Instead we found out that what you thought was 
a Jewish group was the KKK, and the argument that the menorah could be
secular _lost_.

    You also recalled Hilary Ostrov having some article published in some
newspaper.  And that recollection was false.  So you will excuse me if I
don't trust your memory very much.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48806 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer trolls about Nizkor, for the last time
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:12:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 126
Message-ID: <4rno1o$g0p@access4.digex.net>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4rhd1u$esp@access1.digex.net> <4rkrqa$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48806 alt.censorship:87860 alt.usenet.kooks:26580

In article <4rkrqa$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>
>>    Oh, hell with it, let's end the game.
>
>>In article <4rf1hb$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>> wrote:
>>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4rac2q$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>	There are at least a dozen people who know exactly where to find the two
>>>>>mentions of the two trials of Hoess if they were not censored from
>>>>>Nizkor.  Stein has said he has done a content based search of the site
>>>>>and says he found no such mention.  Therefore the material is censored.
>
>>    Now I will point out the fact that Matt lied here.
>
>>    I never said that I found no _mention_.  My precise words (and my
>>words are almost always _precise_) were:
>
>
>>Date:         1996/06/12
>
>>    Not even Altavista can find what does not exist.  But you know that.
>>I searched for all files mentioning "Rudenko" to look for verification of
>>the story that Rudenko lost the first case against Hoess, which you said
>>you found on Nizkor.  No such file.
>
>
>>Date:         1996/06/20
>
>>    However, I have an account on Nizkor, and I _can_ search the files by
>>content.  When Giwer claimed that there was a file on Nizkor saying that
>>Rudenko lost one case against Hoess for lack of evidence, I did a
>>case-insensitive search on "Ruden" and "enko" (to catch any line breaks in
>>the middle of the word).  No file which turned up in that search matched
>>Giwer's description of what he had read.
>
>>    Please keep the precise words I used in mind.  They are important,
>>because (as Mr. Giwer has told us) words have meanings.
>
>	There are several regular participants here who know exactly where those
>reports have to be on Nizkor if Nizkor is not censored.  There are
>irregular participants here who know the exact same thing.  
>
>	How many more riddles do you folks need?
>
>	How about this one.
>
>	When I first posted on the claim, I said it was there once.  The second
>time I posted the claim, I said it was there twice.  How do I know?  
>
>	Think about it.  
>
>>>	That is your assumption.  
>>>
>>>	The following is a riddle.  
>>>
>>>	I did not originally read it there but I know it is there.  How do I
>>>know?  
>
>>    Because it is in your own reposts of Al Gentile's articles, of course,
>>and it was archived.  I knew that before I wrote my previous article.
>>But I know something else you don't know.
>
>	But it was not found there in a content based search--as you said.  So
>where is it really?  

    I will type this very slowly as obviously our poor Mr. Giwer is a
functional illiterate who did not understand a single word of my previous
post, where I carefully explained how I _never_ said that.


    I _never_ said Gentile's words were not found, Matt.  I just got done
explaining that you stupidly misread every word I previously wrote.

    I always found every _word_ where you thought it should be.  First
time, every time. 

    Maybe I'd better repeat that.  I found every _word_, and I _never_
said differently.  I quoted my previous statements to show you exactly
what I said.  But you didn't pay attention.

    I _always_ found Gentile's words; they were never censored.

    But.  You did not understand the words.  Not Gentile's, not mine.

    You said the words were "eyewitness testimony."  The words are not
eyewitness testimony.  I found no _eyewitness testimony_ in the words. 

    You said the words were "evidence."  The words are not evidence.  I
found no _evidence_ in the words.

    I said I looked for "verification."  The words have no verification. 
I found no _verification_ for the words. 

    I found only assertion.  Only words.  Worthless words.

    Now do you think you can summon up your alleged 163 IQ points and
understand the words I have written this time? 


    It is no wonder poor Mr. Giwer does not understand the evidence about
the holocaust.  He could not even understand what I wrote in the previous
post.  And what he does understand he forgets in a few days.  He often
cannot even remember what he himself wrote a week earlier. 

    You would think someone with a 163 IQ would not have these problems. 
I can certainly understand how, given the clear evidence posted in this
newsgroup of Mr. Giwer's illiteracy and memory loss at age 51, people
might develop suspicions about Mr. Giwer's truthfulness, mental health, or
possible substance abuse.  But maybe poor Mr. Giwer just suffers from
dyslexia, attention deficit disorder, or something a simple trip to the
optometrist might cure.  I do hope he seeks the help he needs.

    But until then, obviously discussing the Holocaust with him is a lost
cause.  It is too complicated for someone of his clearly limited abilities
to understand. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48811 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:29:04 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4rnp00$g9b@access4.digex.net>
References: <4raotm$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rhbc7$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <4rkrf4$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rkrf4$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>># There appears to have been no orders against taking
>># the kinds of pictures that have been produced which are
>># excludable as being nonspecific to the gassing issue.
>
>>There were orders against taking photographs in the "Operation
>>Reinhard" camps. There were also orders against taking 
>>photographs during the mass shootings by the "Einsatzgruppen". 
>
>>Now, the 163-IQ'ed Giwer will claim to a contradiction, because
>>there are actually some such photographs. That's true. At least
>>a few were taken in secrecy or in violation of the order, and
>>at least one SS-man (Max Taubner) stood trial for taking such
>>photographs.
>
>	Nice try but It is quite clear that I am talking about your mass
>extermination by gassing facilities within the camps.

    What part of "orders against taking photographs in the 'Operation
Reinhard' camps does our 163 IQ type not understand?

    He could not even understand and/or remember the text from one
paragraph earlier.

    Obviously he is simply not mentally capable of understanding or
following a discussion of these matters.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48813 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Acronym or paupacy?  You decide.  (Or:  how to beat Giwer)
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:43:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4rnpqc$gg2@access4.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4ra3sm$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4rdmlp$ld2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4rhbdb$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rhbdb$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>	If YOU wish to make the NG useless for everyone, go right ahead.  

    He is not the one posting followups which contain no comment _at all_
directly addressing the previous article.  You and you alone are
responsible for what you post.  You are talking just like the convict who
said, "I never murdered anyone!  The liquor store owner was going for his
gun - I shot him in self-defense!" 

    If you wish people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
lying and trolling.  It is that simple.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48823 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:38:39 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4ro0iv$ign@access4.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>Equinox  wrote:

[nerve gas question of unclear intent deleted]


>	It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I
>had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>
>	But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>likely agent.

    Mr. Giwer has demonstrably misunderstood the descriptions.


>	When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>collapsed.  

    Mr. Giwer has misread so many things that it is not clear how he can
be capable of forming any valid opinion about any of this.  He neither
understands nor remembers what he reads.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:34 PDT 1996
Article: 48824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:20:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4rnvgp$iee@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31da9615.5257091@news.pacificnet.net> <4rk6eb$f74@access4.digex.net> <31de6fe9.659100@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <31de6fe9.659100@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>    Yes, Tommy, but you also recalled some Jewish group trying to get the
>>menorah declared a secular symbol.  I recall a Tommy bluster about how
>>we were all going to be sorry when you found your documentation.  But
>>you never did, did you?  Instead we found out that what you thought was 
>>a Jewish group was the KKK, and the argument that the menorah could be
>>secular _lost_.
>>
>>    You also recalled Hilary Ostrov having some article published in some
>>newspaper.  And that recollection was false.  So you will excuse me if I
>>don't trust your memory very much.
>
>	As to how much of your post is true to facts or cited wording, I
>don't know at this time. I do thank you for endorsing my other 100+
>posts by not having to say and always concentrating on these two.
>Thanks - again.

    I don't endorse your 100+ other posts.  You endorsed my one post were
I said that you were the most stupid person posting here, though.  Thanks
- again. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48827 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:52:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <4rnqcc$glk@access4.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4raqek$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rbmos$r62@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>	A possible position.  However as you have seen the game played here
>>>some derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source
>>>be disproven as though it were graven in stone.  
>>>	That is unacceptable.  
>
>>	The point is, you and your allies post rather dubious arguments,
>>then claim the burden of proof is on the other side, when in fact the other
>>side demolishes your arguments.
>
>The point is that similar methods are used by both sides

    False.


>and there is in
>fact similar demolition, that is, it in the eyes of the beholder.  

    False.



>	What keeps the game going is the pretention by the holohuggers that
>their sources are unimpeachable.  

    False.


>>>	Mothers are not fathers.  
>
>>	No shit, Sherlock????!!!!!!!!!!
>	
>>>So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
>>>posting to me and about me?  
>
>>	Oh, well, it was little things, like you calling Hilary Ostrov a
>>"simpering bitch". Now in most dialects of English, that is highly
>>insulting. Perhaps you speak an unusual dialiect, or for that matter,
>>idiolect. Or are you just being an arsehole?
>
>HRO's posts to me and about me have been primarily personal attacks and
>insults.  What makes you think she should be immune from response?  

    It is not a personal attack to call Mr. Giwer a liar.  He lies.  That
is a statement of fact which can be proved to courtroom standards.  I have
offered a wager that I can prove this to a neutral arbiter from the
American Arbitration Association.  Mr. Giwer has not responded to this
wager.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:36:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4ro3uv$ivb@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rhbbi$oe4@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>># Anyone want to explain this one? 
>
>>[Erroneous testimony about Belsec camp]
>
>>Anyone want to explain the testimonies about Dresden's bombing? 
>>"Puddles of melted human flesh"? People who turned into an
>>"undulating layer of fine gray ashes" although the fire
>>didn't even touch them? People "glowing red and orange" 
>>(also, although the fire didn't even touch them)?
>
>	Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden but no PHYSICAL
>evidence of any form of mass extermination at Belsen.

    Gosh, there is physical evidence of a burned Chicago.  Guess it was
firebombed.

[snip]

>	There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.

    There may be bomb craters.  There may be evidence of a fire.  But
establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)?  Or the intentionality
of the fire?  What physical evidence do you have for that?  None, of
course. 



>There is no physical evidence of mass extermination by any means at
>Belsen.  
>
>You know the difference.  It is simply inconvenient for you to admit to
>the difference.  

    Please tell us what physical evidence you have that the Dresden fire
was not really caused by Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow, and that the bombing was
just coincidence.  None, of course.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 04:41:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4rnt7s$i3j@access4.digex.net>
References:  <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Mark Van Alstine  wrote [wrt "co-web mistress"]:
>Quite sure. Despite your protesations of "innocence" _you_ fully intended
>your petty remarks to be insulting. You made your bed, Ehrlich606, now lie
>in it. 

    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  Yes, Ehrlich's words _might_ have
been sly innuendo designed to give "plausible deniability."  The content
of _other_ posts may increase your suspicion of this.  But they also may
be just as innocent as he says.  To a neutral observer, seeing only the
post in question, there would be reasonable doubt.  There is in my own
mind, even though I should be inclined to bias against Ehrlich based on
his rather astounding defense of Matt Giwer.  (He has not responded to my
reply to that defense, and I think he owes a response.)

    As you cannot read Ehrlich's mind, I think you ought to keep your
suspicions to yourself on this one and save your efforts for charges you
really can make stick.  You do no good and much harm by pressing a dubious
case here.

    Posted and emailed to Ehrlich, Mark Van Alstine, and Hilary Ostrov.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Jul  7 09:53:37 PDT 1996
Article: 48836 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: 7 Jul 1996 07:04:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4ro5j8$j75@access4.digex.net>
References: <31da8509.893190@news.pacificnet.net> <4reu6r$d4c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31de6ffe.679587@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <31de6ffe.679587@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote:
>
>>You people do HATE.  You hate Jews, Blacks, immigrants and hispanics.
>>
>>What I can't fathom is why the hell you deny it.  Hitler never denied that
>>he hated Jews to the core.  Hitler believed that all of society's ills lay
>>at the feet of the Jews.   Hitler transformed himself from a "weak-kneed
>>cosmopolitan" to an anti-semite.
>>
>>You act like there is something wrong with hating Jews.  Are you too
>>ashamed to hate Jews?   
>
>	No wonder this 'person' uses a goofy alias. 

    Instead of just giving your snippy little blurtings, why not show
what's wrong with what this person wrote instead of using an argumentum ad
hominem about the poster's name?  Where is your empirical approach, Tommy?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 48862 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The true revisionist theme
Date: 7 Jul 1996 12:54:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4roq3u$nf3@access4.digex.net>
References: <4r21k7$c5a@panix2.panix.com> <4ra194$8tj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4ra194$8tj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>The bottom line I
>am too suspicious of the Stalinist regime and the manner in which evidence
>was presented at Nuremberg.

    Let's say for the sake of argument that every piece of evidence and
testimony used at the IMT and all Polish and Russian trials is tainted and
not admissible as evidence. Let's just look at the trials conducted by the
United States, or even better by the West German government.  Many years
after the war, SS men were convicted of participation in the gassing in
German courts. 

    I have never seen any challenge to those trials that the evidence was
falsified or produced by torture.  The only excuse I have seen is the
"Staeglich excuse" - that all of the defendants who confessed to gassing
were, without exception, lying because they were sure they'd be convicted
no matter what, and went along to escape more severe punishment if they
showed their lack of remorse by telling the truth (what the "revisionists"
claim is the truth, that is) and denying that there was any gassing.  The
excuse then goes that they could not deny the gassings afterwards because
of laws against Holocaust denial.

    I'm not sure that even this washes - does anyone know when the
anti-denial laws (which should be repealed, BTW) were passed in each
country?  It seems to me they are of reasonably recent origin.

    Leaving that aside, I've raised the following issues before, and
nobody has even _tried_ to address the following points: 

    - Why couldn't they simply say _they personally_ were not involved -
they knew about the gassing, sure, but never took part?

    - Why did the witnesses all lie, even fellow SS men?  Why didn't they
say they didn't remember whether so-and-so was involved, rather than help
send innocent men to jail?  Surely the perjury-proof "I can't recall" 
answer was not invented by American politicians? 

    - Why did some SS men, such as Franz Suchomel, repeat their
confessions in places where there was no fear at all?  Suchomel demanded
anonymity to talk to Lanzmann for _Shoah_ (Lanzmann broke the promise) and
then admitted to the Reinhard gassings with no possible personal benefit.

    - Why didn't the convicted men recant their false confessions after
serving their sentences?  Again, no denial of gassing, just a denial of
personal involvement?  At the very least, one would think that we'd see a
lot of letters enclosed with wills by people anxious to restore their good
names.

    No "revisionist" has ever even tried to answer these points that I
have seen.  Yet the "Staeglich excuse" keeps appearing, with no admission
of these flaws.

    Would you like to address the later trials, and not focus exclusively
on the IMT, which is really rather a red herring?  Any "revisionist" want
to take a crack at the points I've raised about SS testimony at West
German trials?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 48866 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What in the world are Jews doing bowing to white christian trash ?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:55:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4ro52l$j4u@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rg6f2$p7h@news.ios.com>  <4rkr5l$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rkr5l$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>P.S. Hey, Giwer & Moran! Here are two jews DISAGREEING!!!
>
>	About time


    You have not been paying attention, then.  Until you start reading
everything, understand what you read, and correctly remember what you
read, you are not qualified to participate in the discussions here.

    Actually, this is not two Jews disagreeing.  MKravits is a forgery; 
email to the address bounces.  The origin of the posts suggests one of the
Hubers.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:24 PDT 1996
Article: 48871 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 7 Jul 1996 14:36:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4rp03m$p1f@access4.digex.net>
References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>Time out!  *Holohugger* isn't degrading.  It's teasing.  Although I would
>tend to agree that -- reading Bruce's comments -- that Matt could be more
>_sensitive_.


    Well, I really don't care how touchy-feely Matt is.  I've got a rhino
hide.  Once again, since I have yet to see your reply to my previous
remarks, what Matt really needs to be more of is _honest_.  Saying lamely
that he has a problem with accuracy is rather like saying that Ted Bundy
was a nice boy who had a few problems maintaining a healthy relationship
with women.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 7 Jul 1996 16:19:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4rp658$qlo@access4.digex.net>
References: <2b4_9607062322@tor250.org> <4ro3c8$7hf@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4ro3c8$7hf@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 06 Jul 96 23:05:52, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>> mnc>     What an asshole.  We know that one "whiff" causes immediate
>> mnc> unconsciousness.
>
>>Only if the cyanide release was fast enough - which you've been
>>arguing against.
>
>>Good lord, Matt - have you really burned yourself out already?!? The
>>others, Moran the moron and Huber the hopeless ect, aren't worth
>>trying to match wits with. I thought thta *YOU* might give me a
>>little bit of a fight, but not with this kind of nonsense!
>
>>You did a much more creditable job, albeit still failing, in Debate,
>>Politics, Controv, Soapbox and even the Ilink conferences!
>
>>This is pathetic!
>
>	You are trying a fool's game and not answering the mail.
>
>	We KNOW that "one whiff" does not cause recoverable unconsciousness 

    Not what he said previously about descriptions of US executions,
unless he was writing very poorly (which, I admit, is a possibility).
Mr. Giwer can't keep his trolls consistent.


>and
>we know that the completion of the story requires the flesh and clothing
>to fuse into gelatinous masses.

    Matt can't read well enough to understand that nobody said that Zyklon
did that, nor is he relating it accurately.  No wonder he can't handle any
of the material.


>If you believe one you believe them both.  

    Completely invalid logic.


>You are showing yourself no better than a holohugger, yet you pretending
>rationality in your phone calls.   

    Phone calls?  Is Giwer saying Alec is Marduk now?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 48921 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:05:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4rnuks$i9q@access4.digex.net>
References:  <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4rkhjq$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rkhjq$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>And you should apologize to Ms. Ostrov for being a sexist cad. 
>
>	Cad?  Fascinating that you should use a word that goes back to a time
>when the terms master and mistress (as in of the house) were in everyday
>use.  


    Quite aside from the fact that you are completely unqualified to
discuss English usage, as demonstrated by your misusages, neologisms, and
inability to understand perfectly good English words, this is off-topic. I
have posted discussions of cremation and of diesel exhaust several times,
issues about which you have made claims.  You have not addressed any of
them.  Clearly you cannot. 

    Instead you post this irrelevant drivel, after telling us how you are
trying desperately to get this newsgroup back on track.  It is no wonder
you are identified as a troll.  When you stop lying and start dealing with
the material seriously, then the references to you as a lying troll will
stop.  It is that simple.

    But before you can deal with the material seriously, you will have to
learn reading comprehension.  That is not a personal attack.  That is a
statement of fact which can be documented from many posts in which you
have clearly demonstrated reading errors the average ten-year-old would
not make.  And then you will have to remember what you have read.  In some
cases you cannot remember what you posted a week earlier. 

    You simply aren't intellectually capable of dealing with the material. 
Sorry about that. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:26 PDT 1996
Article: 48922 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:16:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4rnv8l$ich@access4.digex.net>
References:  <4qn3en$l70@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4rkh8o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rkh8o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	I made that inference from neither of you and particularly her knowing
>next to nothing about the HTML.  It was reinforced when Stein was the
>one who had to do the content based file search when neither of the
>Webrats were able to do so.  

    I was simply the one who did the search - and Mr. Giwer has repeatedly
misread what I wrote about the results of that search, proving he is an
illiterate.  Mr. Giwer has no valid logical basis for making this
statement about the abilities of the others.  Simply more evidence that
his intellect is not up to the level needed for dealing with the material
presented here.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:27 PDT 1996
Article: 48923 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'They don't call Giwer the cotrol for nothing!'
Date: 7 Jul 1996 05:55:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4ro1iq$ilj@access4.digex.net>
References:  <4resu3$dpn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4rkqhc$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rkqhc$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

[snip]

>	It is unclear what a schwarte is doing pointing here.  

    It is quite clear that Mr. Giwer is illiterate ("schwarte" for
"schwartze" might be a typo, but "pointing?").  It is also clear that
after calling for this newsgroup to get back on track, he is
intellectually incapable of participating in the discussions of cremation
and diesel exhaust which he started but then ran away from.  Of course,
given that he neither understands nor remembers what he reads (or writes,
sometimes), it is hard to see what he is intellectually capable of
discussing.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:28 PDT 1996
Article: 48928 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 7 Jul 1996 16:10:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4rp5kj$qig@access4.digex.net>
References:  <4rl14t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rl14t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>
>>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>>Krema I in Auschwitz
>>[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>>Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>>hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>>inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>>to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>>the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>>opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>>were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>>of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>>started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>>death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
>
>	What an asshole.  We know that one "whiff" causes immediate
>unconsciousness.

    Mr. Giwer once realized that concentration had something to do with
concentration, and that concentration had to do with speed of release from
the carrier, and that speed of release depended on temperature, but he's
forgotten all that again. 


>	Why are you introducing this nonsense?  

    Why are you trying to participate in this discussion when you can't
remember from one week to the next what's going on?    
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:28 PDT 1996
Article: 48938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:24:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4ro38g$is5@access4.digex.net>
References:  <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rje6r$qdm@access5.digex.net> <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48938 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:144 alt.usenet.kooks:26612

In article <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
>>>how to stop it all?  
>
>>    If you want people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
>>lying and stop trolling.  That is _my_ description of how to stop it all. 
>>It is that simple.
>
>>    Especially since you are not even competent at trolling.  Words have
>>meanings, and you screwed up big time on your wording on the thing about
>>Rudenko and the two trials of Hoess.  And you misread and lied about my
>>statements.  Maybe you need to go back and reread Korzybski - not that I
>>seriously think it will help.
>
>	Care do name his book that I am referring to?  

    If you cannot remember the name of the book, which was given here
within the past few weeks, it is only more evidence that your mind is not
capable of dealing with the material presented here.


>>    Learning some material about the Holocaust would be nice as well. 
>>Perhaps someday you can figure out which buildings were where, and had
>>what features.  You obviously haven't got it right yet.  Were you in the
>>"slow readers" group as a child?  When you get your facts straight, even
>>as far as the physical evidence which _is_ there on the ground (the
>>buildings themselves) then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the
>>subject.
>
>	I have been working from the materials on Nizkor and have posted them
>hear as part of my posts on the subject.  If you disagree with those on
>Nizkor you should post the layouts you do agree with, with your posts.  
>
>	It would be a first.  

    The problem is not with the layouts described on Nizkor.  The problem
is that you cannot read them correctly, nor remember what you have read. 
My posting them here will not improve your reading comprehension.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48943 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 8 Jul 1996 02:14:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4rq90r$aqm@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Daniel Keren  wrote:
>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
># Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden 
>
>We are still waiting to see it. You have yet to provide such
>"physical evidence" which would pass the "revisionist" standards
>applied when evidence to the Holocaust is given.
>
>Provide it, or shut up.
>
>As long as you don't provide it, you are also "proving" (by
>an extension of your "revisionist arguments") that Dresden was
>not bombed.
>
># of mass extermination at Belsen.
>
>I think you're confusing Belsen and Belzec. Please check this
>before you're making further claims about Belsen (which are, of
>course, irrelevant to Belzec).

    Mr. Giwer's original post did say Belsen.  Either you misread it, or
he misread his source, or his source erroneously substituted Belsen for
Belzec.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48955 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: 8 Jul 1996 03:24:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4rqd32$bsn@access1.digex.net>
References: <8C3A3FE.0811012A38.uuout@almac.co.uk> <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:
>
>>In article <4r1kho$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes
>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>Subject: When I said it
>>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>
>>>        When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>>wrong.   
>>>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."
>>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
>>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 
>>>        I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  

    Last time I looked appeal to authority was still a fallacy.


>>I fail to see why. 
>
>>I have asked before and I'll ask again (please note, these are not 
>>rhetorical questions and I would welcome the views of any readers) :-
>
>>A.
>>What was the relevance of the US constitution, bill of rights, statute 
>>law or precedents to the Nuremberg process ?
>
>	They incorporate principles of law and justice that are common to all
>civilized countries, such as the prohibition of ex post facto laws.

    Although it is not permitted in the US, ex post facto establishment of
penalties for acts which were criminal before the act is a more debatable
matter.  Perhaps Mr. Giwer would care to cite the code which defines
"civilized" other than his "Because!  I!  Say!  So!" 


>>B.
>>Would it matter if the Nuremberg defendants were tried on the basis of 
>>ex post facto laws ? If so, why ?
>
>	It would have the same effect if next year it were made a capitol
>offense to post under the name Angus McClellan and you were executed for
>doing so in 1996.  

    At the very least, the charge of violation of the rules of war at the
IMT was _not_ ex post facto even by US standards.  I leave it to Mr. Giwer
to figure out why. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:31 PDT 1996
Article: 48958 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann')
Date: 8 Jul 1996 04:00:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4rqf7a$cd7@access1.digex.net>
References: <4qvr62$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rahpi$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4rhol0$h7s@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4rkj1o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4rkj1o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>>>As I have some difficulties with your slang, I didn't first understood
>>>>what you told with "mess of psyrinks". All the psychiatrists that I
>>>>can poll are among the firsts classified in the contests for the
>>>>hospitals (for example, 5, 8 or 11 among 260). The most part of the
>>>>French psychiatrists pass this examination. These that I know are
>>>>always classified in the first quarter.
>
>>>>But this pedigree has nothing to do with your claim: that men can't
>>>>scream only in fear of death. It is ridiculous, and it remains
>>>>ridiculous. I don't find you very likeable, but since I had my own
>>>>experience, I hope that you will never try it yourself.
>
>>>	I have serious problems with your restatement also.  I did not say can
>>>not anything.  I said do not.  I have no idea what you are trying to say
>>>with "only in fear of".
>
>>Try "only when afraid of dying" instead of "only in fear of death". Is
>>it clearer?
>
>>>But primarily, I was questioning that you "polled" anyone and implying
>>>that you made it up.  
>
>>>Is that clear enough?
>
>>Yes. I had my own experience of a such situation, but I'm lying. I
>>told you to read the book from the French headsman in 1792, and
>>another books from this time, but you wan't. I told you to see the TV
>>reports 1/4h after the Manchester's bombing, but you didn't see what I
>>saw. The testimonies from the WWII are more recent, but faked. I can
>>ask a dozen of psychiatrists if it is likely (that a man will scream
>>when afraid of dying), but what I will report will be made up.
>
>>It's very clear. You don't have even the beginning of an argument. You
>>have only an opinion and use it to tell that all the testimonies of
>>the gassings (of men) are faked. On the top, you don't know if a
>>gassing was painful after some seconds for the victims.
>
>	And all of this simply because I noted the ready accessability of a
>dozen psychologists to poll?  
>
>	You don't even realize that little girls practice screaming.  

    Nothing in Dr. Bilik's post allows this as a valid logical conclusion.


>You don't even realize that most men know as much about how to scream as
>how to yodel.

    I was able to yodel the first time I tried it though I admit that I
might be unusual.  Screaming is much easier. 

    Mr. Giwer is clearly projecting his own handicaps upon other people. 
Unless he thinks the pitch is significant, and that what men do ought to
be called "yelling?"  Well, Mr. Giwer has already amply demonstrated the
"paupacy" of his skills in the English language.  What's one more example?


>Conduct an experiment.  Scream.  Do you think you are suddenly going to
>learn the technique?  Or perhaps you has several sisters and learned
>young.  

    Mr. Giwer is being extremely silly.  Obviously the best he can do,
since he has yet to engage in serious debate over cremation or diesel
exhaust despite my many offers.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:32 PDT 1996
Article: 48962 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Supersedes: <4rqh3m$ds2@access1.digex.net>
Date: 8 Jul 1996 04:41:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4rqhju$e00@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <31dd275c.844581@news.pacificnet.net>  <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	How many from Nizkor have protested the shutdown?  
>
>	You may all raise your hands.  

    I have a query in to psnw asking for an explanation, with a note that
I object to the cutoff unless it is for a terms-of-service violation.

    Of course Mr. Giwer's pious pretentions to support of free speech ring
rather hollow, as according his own words he conspired to censor Rack
Jite's web page.  He later claimed it was Combase's doing, due to libel,
but of course Mr. Giwer's words prior to the cutoff were that one way or
another the page would come down.  Note he did not say the (allegedly) 
false information, but the _page_ (i.e., everything on it), and after the
page was removed said that it only took _him_ four days to get it shut
down (taking personal credit, not saying it was Combase's doing).  Seems
to be something of a contradiction here.  And of course Mr.  Giwer freely
libels other people in this newsgroup.

    Mr. Giwer is clearly a hypocritical liar who has no objection to
censorship or libel when he is the author of it - not a personal attack,
just an observation of well-documented fact. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul  8 08:50:33 PDT 1996
Article: 49010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Followup-To: alt.discrimination,alt.conspiracy,alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 8 Jul 1996 01:19:43 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4rq5pf$a8m@access1.digex.net>
References: <31dd2d95.2437571@news.pacificnet.net> <5JUL199610570486@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31de700a.691725@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <31de700a.691725@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>	The two little books mentioned are the "O.T." including the Torah
>and the wicked Talmud.

    Oh, oh, Tommy is pulling out the big guns now.  The "wicked Talmud."
I've never heard it called a "little book" before, though.  Tommy, do you
have any idea at all how many pages the Talmud has?  Could you even tell a
Talmud from a Tel Aviv telephone directory?

    Well, Tommy, maybe you'd better tell us what's so wicked about the
Talmud.  Whatever happened to the empirical approach?  Here you are with
an argumentum ad ignorantiam.  Where are your "explicits," Tommy?

    You wouldn't be so dishonest as to quote the wicked words without also
quoting any other words that say the wicked words are wrong, would
you?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul  8 19:56:50 PDT 1996
Article: 49023 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Supersedes: <4rq7vr$alp@access1.digex.net>
Date: 8 Jul 1996 04:34:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4rqh7c$dtg@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:
>
>>-THE THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES-
>
>>THOUGHTCRIME: 07/04/96
>
>>BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
>>____________________________________________________________________
>
>>	As the first seconds of July 4, 1996 ticked away, the Bradley 
>>R. Smith / CODOH (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust) 
>>website was shutdown from the World Wide Web.  The Bradley R. Smith 
>>Website was dedicated to the cause of Free Speech and especially 
>>encouraged open debate on the topic of the Holocaust.
>
>	It was an appropriate time for the site to be censored.  It demonstrates
>the intentions of the owners are contrary to the founding principles of
>the United States.  
>
>	Of course individuals have a right to do what they want.  It is their
>choice.  It is simply an example of the degradation of constitutional
>principles upon which the country was founded.  
>
>	May they rot in hell.

    If Mr. Giwer would like to explain the contradiction between his
statement that the disappearance of Rack Jite's pages from Volant Turnpike
were due to Combase's complaint (initiated after Mr. Giwer told them there
was something allegedly libelous to complain about), and his earlier boast
that it only took _him_ (Mr. Giwer, not Combase) four days to make the
pages disappear, now would be a good time to do it.  Not that Mr. Giwer
seems to have any special objection to libel, as he commits it so often
here - not a personal attack, just a statement of provable fact.

    Mr. Giwer's commitment to the principles of free speech seem to be
subject to change according to his whims of the moment, and whether it's
his ox that's being gored.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul  8 19:56:51 PDT 1996
Article: 49065 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 8 Jul 1996 01:48:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4rq7f9$aiq@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <31dd275c.844581@news.pacificnet.net>  <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4rkuhg$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	How many from Nizkor have protested the shutdown?  
>
>	You may all raise your hands.  

    I have a query in to psnw asking for an explanation, with a note that
I object to the cutoff unless it is for a terms-of-service violation.

    Of course Mr. Giwer's pious pretentions to support of free speech ring
rather hollow, as according his own words he conspired to censor Rack
Jite's web page.  He later claimed it was Combase's doing, due to libel,
but of course Mr. Giwer's words prior to the cutoff were that one way or
another the page would come down.  Note he did not say the (allegedly)
false information, but the _page_ (i.e., everything on it), and after the
page was removed said that it only took _him_ two days to shut it down
(taking personal credit, not saying it was Combase's doing).  Seems to be
something of a contradiction here.  And of course Mr.  Giwer freely libels
other people in this newsgroup. 

    Mr. Giwer is clearly a hypocritical liar who has no objection to
censorship or libel when he is the author of it - not a personal attack,
just an observation of well-documented fact. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Jul  8 20:17:33 PDT 1996
Article: 144 of alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer defends himself with lies
Date: 7 Jul 1996 06:24:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4ro38g$is5@access4.digex.net>
References:  <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rje6r$qdm@access5.digex.net> <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48938 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:144 alt.usenet.kooks:26612

In article <4rklt1$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ranvr$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	Is this the way you continue after a response after my description of
>>>how to stop it all?  
>
>>    If you want people to stop referring to you as a lying troll, stop
>>lying and stop trolling.  That is _my_ description of how to stop it all. 
>>It is that simple.
>
>>    Especially since you are not even competent at trolling.  Words have
>>meanings, and you screwed up big time on your wording on the thing about
>>Rudenko and the two trials of Hoess.  And you misread and lied about my
>>statements.  Maybe you need to go back and reread Korzybski - not that I
>>seriously think it will help.
>
>	Care do name his book that I am referring to?  

    If you cannot remember the name of the book, which was given here
within the past few weeks, it is only more evidence that your mind is not
capable of dealing with the material presented here.


>>    Learning some material about the Holocaust would be nice as well. 
>>Perhaps someday you can figure out which buildings were where, and had
>>what features.  You obviously haven't got it right yet.  Were you in the
>>"slow readers" group as a child?  When you get your facts straight, even
>>as far as the physical evidence which _is_ there on the ground (the
>>buildings themselves) then maybe you will be qualified to discuss the
>>subject.
>
>	I have been working from the materials on Nizkor and have posted them
>hear as part of my posts on the subject.  If you disagree with those on
>Nizkor you should post the layouts you do agree with, with your posts.  
>
>	It would be a first.  

    The problem is not with the layouts described on Nizkor.  The problem
is that you cannot read them correctly, nor remember what you have read. 
My posting them here will not improve your reading comprehension.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Jul  9 07:36:52 PDT 1996
Article: 49112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 7 Jul 1996 14:25:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 151
Message-ID: <4roveh$os4@access4.digex.net>
References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r4oba$c6n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <177B69A84S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>	The persistance of the myth does not need any nebulous conspiracy or
>guilt to explain.  All you have to do is read what the holohuggers post
>on this conference as a microcosm of the real world.  

    The failure of "revisionists" to shake this "myth" does not need any
repression to explain.  All you have to do is to read the lies,
distortions, false logic, and other intellectual shortcomings in the works
of revisionists - including Mr. Giwer himself - and it becomes quite clear
that the "real world" is something they are hardly qualified to talk
about.


>	It is not permitted to publically express any questions about the
>current dogmatic form of the holocaust in any public media.  In some
>countries it is illegal to do so in any media, public or private.  

    This was not always the case even in Germany (and I do wish they would
repeal the laws, as it gives people like Mr. Giwer a wonderful red herring
to wave about).  It is certainly not the case in this country. 

    Mr. Giwer has complained of conspiracies to censor him and harrass him
and his family due to his posts here.  He can, of course, supply no
evidence other than his own word, which has been proved false on many
occasions - and he can, of course, provide no evidence that any genuine
harrassment has come as a result of his questioning of the Holocaust,
rather than his provable lies and libel.  But he pretends to be unaware
that one can avoid that in this forum through the use of anonymous
remailers such as anon.penet.fi. 

    Revisionists have come into this forum and left after they were unable
to reply to rebuttals of their logic and falsification of their evidence.
Mr. Giwer's lies to the contrary, Greg Raven was presented with cogent
critiques of his methodology and of the distortions and dishonest
omissions contained in the sources he cited for his own arguments.  Like
Mr. Giwer, he now refers to reminders of his own proven dishonesty as
"personal attacks."

    Friedrich Berg was presented with technical references on toxicology
and gaping holes in his own reasoning, plus evidence that he distorted
material he cited in his own work.  Mr. Giwer has been presented with my
material addressing Berg on more than one occasion.  Despite Mr. Giwer's
professed scientific and engineering background, Mr. Giwer has not been
able to offer any substantive response to it.

    Michael Hoffman got similar treatment; his references were checked
(the affidavits of Morgen and Mittelstadt) and it was shown how he was
reading them in a completely invalid manner.  He too provably lied - not
about the Holocaust, but about his justification for denigrating my
knowledge of Hebrew.  (His claimed justification was a comment I made
nearly three weeks _after_ his insult was delivered.  I don't _think_ he
owns a time machine.) 


>	I would have thought the reason for the persistance was obvious by
>inspection.

    Mr. Giwer has shown some deficiencies in the thinking department
before.  Not to mention the reading comprehension and memory departments.


>	The issue you point out is another matter, it is questioning why people
>would raise it to the status of a cult and why there would be such
>vigorous defense of whatever the current truth happens to be.  The
>"explanations" the holohuggers give, such as preventing it from
>happening again, are obviously transparent and false.  

    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!

    I wonder if Mr. Giwer would like to turn a similar skeptical eye on
the explanations of the IHR "revisionists" as to the motives for their
vigorous efforts to disprove any Nazi policy of mass murder, using
doctored "evidence" if need be.


>	What you cite is merely one suggestion as to why this is done.  Blood
>money for Israel is another suggestion.  However at this point the
>reasons suggested are speculation.  
>
>	Consider the difference in Russia.  They trot out their war heroes in
>November and remember losses on that day and it is over for another
>year.  But in November the main speeches are of triumph, of winning the
>war.  
>
>	However a better analogy would be in there were monuments and museums
>and regular public speeches in Germany commemorating losing the war.  It
>is as though the South commemorated losing the War between the States.
>As though England commemorated the lose of the American colonies, Mexico
>the loss of Texas and California.  
>
>	This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human nature.

    So too is the complete lack of recantation of those supposedly coerced
false confessions.  One or two might be explainable as the kind of
brainwashing of the witchcraft trial kind, as some "revisionists" feebly
try to pretend, but the number of testimonies contrary to self-interest
is, in my view, too large - and too unbalanced by later retraction - to be
convincing.  Mr. Giwer is welcome to address this point, which I have
raised before and which no "revisionist" has dared to touch. 


>As I
>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>day he died.  
>
>There is something very, very wrong with this behavior.  It needs help,
>not encouragement.  

    The same can be said of Mr. Giwer's behavior.  He claims that he is
just trying to get this newsgroup back on track, without personal attacks. 
However, he has run away from discussions of cremation and of diesel
exhaust gassing which he initiated.  Clearly he doesn't have the capacity
to debate the material with someone who has some familiarity with it. 

    And he has also said he is here to debunk.  (But what kind of
debunking is it that needs to lie, as Mr. Giwer has provably done, time
and again?)  Earlier said that his purpose here was to amuse himself
dealing with the type of people he found here - in other words, to troll. 

    It is hard to see how all of Mr. Giwer's statements here can be true. 
Many are provably false.  This is not a personal attack; it is a statement
of fact which I have backed up with self-contradictory quotes from Mr. 
Giwer's own posts as well as comparison of the words of others (including
my own) with Mr. Giwer's blatant misrepresentations of those words, and
his dishonest editing. 

    Anytime Mr. Giwer wishes to engage in serious debate about the
Holocaust he is free to do so and I am here for him.  But he cannot read
with comprehension, cannot remember what he has read (or, sometimes,
written!) and has run away from substantive discussion of issues where he
claims to have a solid grounding, technical and scientific issues.  It is
clear that he cannot cope with the material, so he must lie and spam and
troll and hope to distract people from the intellectual failures which are
well-documented in his own posts.

    I have given him every opportunity to respond with serious debate, but
he has run away time and again, one time lying that I have deleted his
work (which I have not done, and he of course never offers documentation
of his own claims).  It is clear that he is just a lying troll who has no
real interest or ability to discuss these issues (or even understand them,
as he demonstrates repeated failures of reading comprehension).

    If he wants people to stop referring to him as a lying troll, all he
has to do is stop lying and stop trolling.  It is that simple.  But so far
he has shown no mental capacity to do anything better.  Too bad.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  9 07:36:53 PDT 1996
Article: 49132 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:34:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4rsk0r$our@access5.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4ro2mq$1v9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <31DFFE86.492F@unb.ca> <4rs72a$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rs72a$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:14:30 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 00:30:54 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>> 
>>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> >>         It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I
>>> >> had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>>> >>
>>> >>         But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>>> >> likely agent.
>>> >>
>>> >>         When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>>> >> collapsed.
>>> 
>>> >Tabun was the first dedicated nerve agent, the second, Sarin, only
>>> >having been produced in test quantities and the third, Soman, was in
>>> >developement when the material was seized by the Soviets who were the first
>>> >to actually produce it.  Tabun, Sarin and Soman have the NATO codenames
>>> >GA, GB and GD.  Sarin was NATO's standard nerve agent until the developement
>>> >of the V series nerve gasses.
>>> 
>>> >They were developed from insecticides and work by blocking
>>> >neurotransmitters, essentially causing the nervous system to simply shut
>>> >down and the body to die.  Field antidote is usually atropine which causes
>>> >neurotransmitter release to increase, hopefully more than the nerve agent
>>> >can block.
>>> 
>>>         You fail to make any points here.
>
>>I am providing background information so that the reader may render
>>a somewhat informed judgement on the topic.  I'm well aware that putting
>>things in context and providing information is a foreign concept to
>>you, but I have no hope of ever making you acknowledge anything.
>
>
>>> >Sarin has a very low natural detoxification level, thus can build up in the
>>> >body to fatal levels.  It is persistant in enclosed structures and the
>>> >recommended method of decontamination is by chemical treatment or live steam
>>> >to accelerate the natural breakdown.  Left by itself it may last in
>>> >significant concentrations for several days and also is denser than air,
>>> >thus may tend to concentrate in low places (like cellars).
>>> 
>>> >Field use requires full protective gear (gas mask and enclosed sealed suit).
>>> 
>>> >Reasons Sarin might be used in a gas chamber:
>>> 
>>> >    Deadly as all hell (faster than Zyklon B, less concentration required)
>>> 
>>> >    Exposure to skin and inhalation both possibly fatal (Zyklon B usually
>>> >     only fatal after inhalation)
>>> 
>>> >Reasons Sarin would be impractical in a gas chamber:
>>> 
>>> >    Full protective gear required by operators of chamber
>>> 
>>> >        -Zyklon B requires gas mask and gloves
>>> 
>>>         Save that the reported times to death are on the same order as those
>>> reported for HCN.  I have read reports of everything from instantaneous
>>> to two days.  They accumulate around 10-20 minutes.  That is nerve gas.
>>> 
>>>         I can not change that.
>
>>Nor can I change the fact that you so blatently omitted the subsequent reasons
>>I posted as to why Zyklon B would be a technically and operationally better
>>agent than a nerve agent such as Sarin.  Why don't you puzzle those reasons
>>out for a while and then get back to me when you actually have something
>>interesting to say other than insipid comments and non-sequitors?
>
>	I made one point, that the time frame for HCN deaths were on the same
>order as nerve gas.  You went on to repeat a canned answer to something
>I did not address.  At no time did I state that nerve gas would have
>been a better choice.  
>
>	So how much did you want left in?  The point is very simple.  The time
>frame for death from breathing cyanide and from nerve gas (and from
>carbon monoxide for that matter) are all reported to be approximately
>the same by the eyewitnesses.  
>
>	The point I was making, which has NOTHING whatever to do with "why
>didn't they use nerve gas?," is that finding HCN in the same time frame
>as nerve gas was my first serious indication that there was something
>wrong with the stories based upon my assumption that that it had been
>nerve gas.
>
>	To go further, it was later finding CO deaths on the same order as HCN
>and nerve gas that indicated there was something seriously wrong with
>the stories.  
>
>	Now if you would like to address the point I am making, please do so.  

    The only thing I see wrong here is with your ability to read,
understand, and evaluate what you read.  Zyklon will vary depending on
room size, concentration, and temperature.  Witnesses will vary in their
estimates of times.  Only a very stupid person would not take into
consideration these very simple points.  You are not taking these very
simple points into consideration.  The conclusion is left as exercise to
the reader. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Jul  9 07:36:53 PDT 1996
Article: 49146 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 06:37:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4rtcom$no9@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rqh7c$dtg@access1.digex.net> <4rt414$avn@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rt414$avn@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 04:34:52 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rkuf5$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:
>>>
>>>>-THE THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES-
>>>
>>>>THOUGHTCRIME: 07/04/96
>>>
>>>>BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
>>>>____________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>>	As the first seconds of July 4, 1996 ticked away, the Bradley 
>>>>R. Smith / CODOH (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust) 
>>>>website was shutdown from the World Wide Web.  The Bradley R. Smith 
>>>>Website was dedicated to the cause of Free Speech and especially 
>>>>encouraged open debate on the topic of the Holocaust.
>>>
>>>	It was an appropriate time for the site to be censored.  It demonstrates
>>>the intentions of the owners are contrary to the founding principles of
>>>the United States.  
>>>
>>>	Of course individuals have a right to do what they want.  It is their
>>>choice.  It is simply an example of the degradation of constitutional
>>>principles upon which the country was founded.  
>>>
>>>	May they rot in hell.
>
>>    If Mr. Giwer would like to explain the contradiction between his
>>statement that the disappearance of Rack Jite's pages from Volant Turnpike
>>were due to Combase's complaint (initiated after Mr. Giwer told them there
>>was something allegedly libelous to complain about), 
>
>	Criminal copyright violation, lying asshole. 


    Make up your mind which true truth is true today.  You said both
copyright and libel at first, but you contradicted yourself later, saying
it was Combase's doing due to the libel.  Even then you were part of the
conspiracy.  And of course we are still left with the problem that you did
not restrict yourself to saying the violations would come down; you said
it would be the _page_.  I cannot change that, censor.

    You'd think a 163 IQ type would be able to keep track of his lies
better, and avoid making self-incriminating statements.  But he can't even
read simple text right a significant percent of the time.
 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Jul  9 12:46:24 PDT 1996
Article: 49206 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 7 Jul 1996 14:57:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4rp1af$pb6@access4.digex.net>
References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4rc4n9$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4reifm$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4reifm$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,   wrote:
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>
>>In article <4rc4n9$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>> 
>>>    Normal people do not mourn even their own deceased parents for years.
>
>>I am *so* glad we have Mr. Giwer to tell us what "normal" people do. 
>>  
>>> 
>>>    You appear to have succomb to some kind of cultural admonishmion to do
>>> so.  
>> 
>>Giwerese. I don't know what "to have succomb" means, nor do i know what
>>the word "admonishmion" is. I suspect (Ken, help?) it's some
>>bastardization of the Yiddish word "mish-mosh," meaning a conglomeration.
>> 
>>If, in fact, he means the word "admonision," what is this "cultural
>>admonision" forcing me to mourn deceased relatives?
>
>	When all else fails, attack the typos.

    This from the man who, when all else fails, attacks killfile and HTML
knowledge.  You'd think such a person would be able to master a
spell-checker.  But I'd prefer mastery of honesty, both intellectual and
factual.  Reading comprehension should be next on the list.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Jul  9 12:46:25 PDT 1996
Article: 49222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but mi
Date: 8 Jul 1996 02:25:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4rq9kd$au2@access1.digex.net>
References: <4rl1bu$mpk@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rln6i$ok5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rq026$jts@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4rq026$jts@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
Gord McFee  wrote:
>In article <4rln6i$ok5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>said:
>
>>The Orange--When access was interupted at midnight July 3/4 it was at
>>first presumed that it might be some sort of innocent "glitch" that they
>>had predicted.  But prompt checks the next morning got confirmation from
>>PSNW people that CODOH's site had been purposely disconnected, without
>>warning, for reasons they refused to specify.
>
>Apart from the fact that what you say is bullshit, please tell us how and
>where you get such intimate knowledge of Mr. Smith's travails.

    I thought that everyone here knew that DvdThomas _maintained_ Mr.
Smith's website.  I think that would give him intimiate knowledge of what
goes on there.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  9 12:46:26 PDT 1996
Article: 49230 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:04:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 192
Message-ID: <4rtvtq$gdh@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rknub$m1q@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rr9ub$dbr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4rt2ue$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:49230 alt.censorship:88150

In article <4rt2ue$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 13:21:05 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>wrote:
>
>>mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein) wrote:
>
>>> Matt Giwer posted several supporting the censorhip of alleged defamatory
>>> lies (i.e., libel) prior to judicial determination of same, provided that
>>> the libel was not authored by Matt Giwer.
>
>>And, as you indicated in another thread, Mr. Stein, Matt Giwer's
>>intention was to get the complete site taken down, not just the libel in
>>question.
>
>>Matt Giwer also posted messages indicating that he was going to try to
>>get another site taken down for violation of copyright.  [...]

>	But as with all holohuggers are you are liar.
>
>	My complaint was legally with copyright violation.

    The only error I see in Jamie's post is that it was not another site,
it was the same site - Rack Jite's.  Perhaps our 163 IQ type will
entertain us with an explanation of how "copyright violation" is different
>from  "violation of copyright."  (I suspect he will remain silent on this
latest demonstration of his complete lack of reading comprehension.)

    But Mr. Giwer should try to keep his true truths straight.  Here are a
few choice excerpts from his previous posts - along with DejaNews URLs to
allow anyone to read the full history, should they choose, and determine
for themselves the truth of what I say here. 



    He says now that his complaint was with copyright violation?  But
back in March, he said he wasn't going to pursue the copyright violation,
it was the libel, ...

1996/03/09

       What could be recovered is not worth the cost of recovery.  I am
simply pointing it out.  I make  money on such work.  He has
appropriated something of value of mine for his own use.
        Beyond that of course it the libel.  The page will go away, one way
or another.

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8650598&server=dnserver.db96q1


1996/03/17

        You folks have a rather juvenile idea of what fun is.  Or are you now
pretending I was talking about pursuing the copyright rather than the
libel?  

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10363769&server=dnserver.db96q1


    ... unless this next excerpt is a forgery.  But Mr. Giwer did not deny
sending this email which he quoted from Rack Jite's post: 

1996/03/19

>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:27:08 -0500
>From: Matt Giwer 
>To: root@turnpike.net
>Subject: your complicity in libel

>You are carrying this page.  
>http://emporium.turnpike.net/H/HR/giwer.htm
>If you check my page with contact.html you will find the page you are
>carrying clearly refers to me.  
>I request this false and malicious libel be removed immediately.
>--------

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?
recnum=%3c4il7fa$90c@wi.combase.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q1


    Note that the subject of the message was the libel, no mention of a
copyright violation.  And now he takes credit - no mention of Combase
being responsible: 

1996/03/21

        As I said the libelous and and copyright violating page of David
Dahlman has gone done.  If anyone feels harmed by any of his pages
simply contact the webmaster at his service provider.  And it only
took me four days from discovering the libelous and thieving page
existed.   
        If anyone else has a problem with this hate site simply contact the
webmaster who is very agreeable to eliminate such tortable violations
fo the law. 

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=9954589&server=dnserver.db96q1


    I also forgot to mention Mr. Giwer's harrassment or conspiracy to
harrass c2.org: 

1996/03/22

        We are now in the process of seeing if c2.org will continue to host
your libel now that they have been informed.

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10095578&server=dnserver.db96q1

    I note that the page http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/giwer.htm is still on
c2.org.  I guess Mr. Giwer can bluster and threaten and bully, but that's
all he's capable of doing.


    But he changed his tune when I pointed out his censorship.  Too bad
about that email from Mr. Giwer to Volant Turnpike, which he did not deny
sending at the time Rack Jite posted it.

1996/06/09

    Anything that happened to Dahlman's page had only peripherally to do
with me in that I pointed it out to Combase. 

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8905677&server=dnserver.dbapr

    Oh?  But what about that email from Mr. Giwer to Volant Turnpike?

    Now the latest true truth from Mr. Giwer is that it was due to the
copyright.  Come back tomorrow to see if Mr. Giwer can come up with
another story which doesn't match any of the previous ones.

    You would think a 163 IQ type could keep his lies straight.

    Note that I take no position on whether the page is libelous or
copyright violating or not.  It is certainly uncomplimentary and abusive
to Mr. Giwer.  I merely point out the following facts: 

    - Mr. Giwer has told contradictory stories about who complained
      and why.

    - We have seen no judicial determination of libel, nor of copyright
      violation, criminal or otherwise.  Therefore Rack Jite is currently
      legally innocent.  Rather than pursuing remedies through proper
      legal channels, Mr. Giwer has, by his own definition, harrassed
      and engaged in conspiracy to harrass Rack Jite's service providers
      in order to suppress the page in question as a shortcut.  If he
      is not able to convince a court that his complaint has legal merit,
      then he was indeed engaging in the same kind of harrassment and
      censorship campaign that he alleges was used against him.

Not a personal attack, just stating documented fact.  Do please check out
the URLs cited above; wouldn't want Mr. Giwer to claim I am taking things
out of context to fool people.  Not that he has any scruples about doing that
when it suits his purposes.  He's edited posts of mine so that he can reply
to a very distorted version of what I said rather than trying to address
the whole argument, which he was clearly incapable of rebutting.

    Mr. Giwer has said he's here to engage in debunking.  (True to form,
he's given a couple of other explanations as well.)  But what kind of 
debunking is it that has to lie and distort?


>	As to the libel, Alec Grynspan has "testified" to that and Davey-girl
>has been too busy selling machine tools to participated lately.  

    Hard to see how Alec can know whether there was any libel against
Combase.  But again, the point here is simply that Mr. Giwer has told
contradictory stories about what happened, and that Mr. Giwer has
attempted to suppress speech without securing a judicial determination
that the speech is indeed in violation of the law.

    Why does he keep lying like this?  Even an idiot should know by now
that my memory is good enough to enable me to pull proof of his lies from
DejaNews with a minimum of effort.  But maybe the reason is contained in a
quote from one of Mr. Giwer's own recent posts: 

    "When one is riding the tiger, one knows that it is impossible to get
off."

    I'm sorry to have to point out that the tiger of his own lies will
devour him no matter how hard he tries to stay on its back.

    Posted and emailed to Ehrlich606, who recently expressed the thought
that Mr.  Giwer is deserving of respect.  Also the thought that the
"Friends of Nizkor" (whoever they are) would stop at nothing to destroy
those with whom they disagree.  As I said before, Mr. Giwer is destroying
himself with his own lies and stupidity.  What have I done here but
document Mr. Giwer's own record?  All he has to do to stop the destruction
is to stop his self-destructive behavior.  It is that simple. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  9 14:22:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49253 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:33:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <4ru1kr$i2c@access5.digex.net>
References: <8C3A3FE.0811012A38.uuout@almac.co.uk> <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rqd32$bsn@access1.digex.net> <4rt5k3$dtk@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rt5k3$dtk@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 03:24:18 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rcf46$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4r1kho$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes
>>>>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>>>>Subject: When I said it
>>>>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:16:53 GMT
>>>
>>>>>        When I said it, I was told by the legal experts here that I was
>>>>>wrong.   
>>>>>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how
>>>>>finely the lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were
>>>>>tried had never been formalized as a crime with the definiteness
>>>>>required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a death penalty by
>>>>>the international community. By our standards that crime arose under an
>>>>>ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe punishment. But their
>>>>>guilt did not justify us in substituting power for principle."
>>>>>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
>>>>>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 
>>>>>        I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  
>
>>    Last time I looked appeal to authority was still a fallacy.
>
>	This is not an appeal, it it clearly a reference to good company to be
>in as is stated.

    It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck.  Remember your alleged
Israeli constitution?


>Douglas may or may not be (have been) correct.  Your
>lack fo substantive refutation is another volume in the ongoing
>discussion.  

    You should not have edited it out of my post.  But given your lack of
reading comprehension, maybe you just missed it.  Let's try again.

    Seeing as you like them so much, here is a riddle.  The charge of
violation of the rules and customs of war was ex post facto - but not at
Nuremberg.



>>>>A.
>>>>What was the relevance of the US constitution, bill of rights, statute 
>>>>law or precedents to the Nuremberg process ?
>>>
>>>	They incorporate principles of law and justice that are common to all
>>>civilized countries, such as the prohibition of ex post facto laws.
>
>>    Although it is not permitted in the US, ex post facto establishment of
>>penalties for acts which were criminal before the act is a more debatable
>>matter.  Perhaps Mr. Giwer would care to cite the code which defines
>>"civilized" other than his "Because!  I!  Say!  So!" 
>
>	Civilized means, among other things, countries that do not permit ex
>post facto laws to be enacted.  

    Last time I looked, begging the question was also a fallacy.

    To what objective standard of "civilized" do you appeal?  Where does
it say that there is no distinction between making an act criminal ex post
facto, and adding a penalty for an act clearly illegal before the act was
committed?

    US law prohibits both, but if you are holding up US law as an
objective standard of civilization then you must explain why those who
call US law uncivilized due to its permission of the death penalty are
wrong.


>Of course you, being neutral on the
>matter, would agree with any US law retroactively making brain sucking
>abortions equal to murder and mandating execution of the doctors who
>performed it and the women who paid for these murders.

    I have said nothing of the sort.  I am merely pointing out that you
are making statements which consist of empty assertion with no reasoning
behind them.  Clearly you are unable to support your assertions with
reasoned argument.  Fine by me.


>	But of course you would support such a law because you have no problem
>with brain-sucking and the like.
>
>	You would also have no problem wtih executing those who let blacks die
>of syphillis without treatment because they wanted to study the progress
>of the disease.  We have a Surgeon General nominee in need of execution
>under that law.
>
>	These are clearly two different examples and politically opposed.  I can
>give you more if you would like.  (How about using the FBI against
>political enemies as a capital offense?)   But then you will go to any
>effort you can to exonorate the idiots you pretend to support in public
>but will question in private.

    Nice paranoid rant but it has absolutely nothing to do with what I
said.  All I have done is ask you to justify your own unsupported
definition of what is and isn't civilized.  If you cannot, as seems pretty
clear by now, just say so and we can move on to other matters.

    I'd like nothing better than to discuss the topic of this newsgroup,
matters such as cremation and the technical aspects of diesel exhaust
gassing, but so far you've shown no inclination (ability?) to address
them.  I can't keep this newsgroup on track alone, you know.

    And remember the riddle.  See if you can figure out the answer.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  9 15:36:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49267 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Well, actually...
Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:25:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4rsjfp$ol3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rij7u$7fb@atlas.uniserve.com> <4rj8ke$rdi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rj8ke$rdi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>What usually transpires is that someone will be decent -- if memory
>serves, it is usually Mike Stein -- who will step forward and be nice. 
>But such interjections are few and far between.

    Interesting that you perceive it that way.  I think of it as fairness. 
If I believe you deserve a heapin' helpin' of chastisement for something
you've done, rest assured I will deliver what's due you.  But by the same
token, as you have seen, I will speak up if I see you getting it for
something you're _not_ guilty of - even if I'm in the middle of dishing it
out for a different infraction. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  9 17:13:21 PDT 1996
Article: 49281 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 9 Jul 1996 13:12:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <4ru3t8$jir@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ro3uv$ivb@access4.digex.net> <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 7 Jul 1996 06:36:15 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>
>>>># Anyone want to explain this one? 
>>>
>>>>[Erroneous testimony about Belsec camp]
>>>
>>>>Anyone want to explain the testimonies about Dresden's bombing? 
>>>>"Puddles of melted human flesh"? People who turned into an
>>>>"undulating layer of fine gray ashes" although the fire
>>>>didn't even touch them? People "glowing red and orange" 
>>>>(also, although the fire didn't even touch them)?
>>>
>>>	Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden but no PHYSICAL
>>>evidence of any form of mass extermination at Belsen.
>
>>    Gosh, there is physical evidence of a burned Chicago.  Guess it was
>>firebombed.
>
>	I have been over this territory before.  You have not been paying
>attention.  There are records of the mission planning, the mission
>briefings, 

    Writing down testimony does not make it a document, remember?  That
was your response about the letter to Rauff.

    Perhaps you would like to quote from them where they say that the city
would be firebombed, not just bombed?  Got a reference?  I thought not.

    But even then, we would have to ask if this could not have been just a
morbid sense of humor?  Got a chain of custody for those mission records? 
It is only one bombing mission out of many.  It is an anomaly just as you
say the Vergasungskeller memo was an anomaly.  Are we not required to look
for alternative explanations of anomalies like this?  Have you done so?



number reels of bomb site films associated with the mission,
>before and after reconnaisance pictures with associated reel numbers
>related to the mission.  There are inventory records of the bombs
>assigned to the mission.  
>
>	All of it points to the smoking gun, physical evidence of aerial
>bombardment.  
>
>	Now where were you when I recited the above last time?  Bad news feed?  

    Whee, there was aerial bombardment of many cities.  If mission records
of bombings are sufficient evidence of firebombing, then every city in
Europe had a Dresden-style barbecue, obviously. 

    Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow is looking guiltier all the time.

>
>>[snip]
>
>>>	There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>
>>    There may be bomb craters.  There may be evidence of a fire.  But
>>establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)?  Or the intentionality
>>of the fire?  What physical evidence do you have for that?  None, of
>>course. 
>
>	All of the above.  

    Simply asserting it does not make it so.


>>>There is no physical evidence of mass extermination by any means at
>>>Belsen.  
>>>
>>>You know the difference.  It is simply inconvenient for you to admit to
>>>the difference.  
>
>>    Please tell us what physical evidence you have that the Dresden fire
>>was not really caused by Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow, and that the bombing was
>>just coincidence.  None, of course.
>
>As you have now read for the third time a minimal recitation of the type
>of physical evidence that exists, exists such that not one person need
>ever testify to it or admit complicity, you have the answer for the
>third time.

    Still no evidence of a causal link between the bombs and fire other
than post hoc ergo propter hoc, which is a fallacy. 


>	Or is this to be an exercise it hoping I get tired of repeating myself
>or happen to miss making one repetition so you can again claim that I
>have refused to discuss a subject?  

    You can repeat claims of physical evidence all you like, but it will
not make it true.

    I have done nothing but hold you to the same strict standards of
evidence you have applied elsewhere.  You have yet to meet them.  Sorry
about that.

    Or do you now consider it acceptable for me to recite as _physical
evidence_ a list of the documents such as the Vergasungskeller letter, the
references to a "Sonderkeller," the inventory sheet for showerheads in a
room showing no plans for shower plumbing, the morgue whose convenient
corpse chute was replaced by inconvenient trips down the stairs, the
letter from Topf talking about cyanide detectors for the Kremas, traces of
cyanide in the Kremas, the memo with plans to heat a supposed morgue with
waste heat from the crematory ovens (heat a morgue?!  but then, the
Germans like Limburger also), the letter to Rauff about gassing vans
_confirmed_ by Rauff in his deposition in Chile, ...

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  9 20:35:30 PDT 1996
Article: 49305 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 9 Jul 1996 18:16:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <4rulnr$437@access5.digex.net>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rnqcc$glk@access4.digex.net> <4rnsbl$s63@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rnsbl$s63@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 7 Jul 1996 03:52:44 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rccju$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  wrote:
>>>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>>>	A possible position.  However as you have seen the game played here
>>>>>some derivative source is cited and then there is a demand that the source
>>>>>be disproven as though it were graven in stone.  
>>>>>	That is unacceptable.  
>>>
>>>>	The point is, you and your allies post rather dubious arguments,
>>>>then claim the burden of proof is on the other side, when in fact the other
>>>>side demolishes your arguments.
>>>
>>>The point is that similar methods are used by both sides
>
>>    False.
>
>
>>>and there is in
>>>fact similar demolition, that is, it in the eyes of the beholder.  
>
>>    False.
>
>
>
>>>	What keeps the game going is the pretention by the holohuggers that
>>>their sources are unimpeachable.  
>
>>    False.
>
>	Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point.  

    I am merely following Mr. Giwer's shining example here.  If mere
assertion is good enough for his claim that there is some pretense of
unimpeachability, who am I to buck his obvious winning formula? 

    Of course, he and I also both know that neither I nor anyone else can
prove the nonexistence of a post where someone makes some sort of claim. 
And we also both know that _he_ made the claim of pretense of
unimpeachability, therefore _he_ bears the burden of proof. 

   His evidence?  None, of course.  After all, mere assertion _is_ always
the best way to make a point.


[...]

>>>>>So why do you think there is a problem with me when it is the people
>>>>>posting to me and about me?  
>>>
>>>>	Oh, well, it was little things, like you calling Hilary Ostrov a
>>>>"simpering bitch". Now in most dialects of English, that is highly
>>>>insulting. Perhaps you speak an unusual dialiect, or for that matter,
>>>>idiolect. Or are you just being an arsehole?
>>>
>>>HRO's posts to me and about me have been primarily personal attacks and
>>>insults.  What makes you think she should be immune from response?  
>
>>    It is not a personal attack to call Mr. Giwer a liar.  He lies.  That
>>is a statement of fact which can be proved to courtroom standards.  I have
>>offered a wager that I can prove this to a neutral arbiter from the
>>American Arbitration Association.  Mr. Giwer has not responded to this
>>wager.
>
>	Mere assertion is always the best resopnse.  

    The volume of Mr. Giwer's posts which consist of nothing but assertion
clearly demonstrate his sincere belief in this principle.

    For those morons who think that silly things like evidence matter, I
suppose there is always

    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

But it is obviously censored, as I know he has told many more lies than
are documented there.


>	I have seen the "wager game" played out for 19 years in the public
>forums and I am not interested in it in the least.

    He is not interested in losing $1,000?  Heavens, he's not completely
around the bend after all.


>It is only newbies who still engage in it.  

    Wanna bet?

    Yes, mere assertion _is_ always the best response.  For lying trolls
who don't have any evidence, that is.  That's the best they can do.  Not a
personal attack, just a statement of fact.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul  9 20:35:34 PDT 1996
Article: 49310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.intersurf.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CODOH shut down
Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:53:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4rsl44$pih@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rl3fk$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rl3fk$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	No organization can both claim to desire common carrier status as an ISP
>and censor what they carry.  

    Guess we both know what Volant Turnpike can't claim to desire. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 10 06:53:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: 9 Jul 1996 17:01:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4ruhc4$tm@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ragsd$ink@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rn51t$7rh@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4rqa5u$59l@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rt783$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rt783$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jul 96 12:31:32 GMT, @stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:
>	IF you had a measurable IQ, son of Jew hating murders, you would not be
>posting this nonsense.

    One might also think that if Matt Giwer had the ability to come up
with an intelligent response, he would not be posting this mindless
insult. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Jul 10 06:53:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49396 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 10 Jul 1996 05:17:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 159
Message-ID: <4rvsg1$2ls@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rknub$m1q@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rmu49$qa9@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rr9ub$dbr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4rt2r3$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rt2r3$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 08:36:43 -0700, mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4rmu49$qa9@Networking.Stanford.EDU>,
>>Rich Graves  wrote:
>>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>>>As always, your organization is welcome on the web, and encouraged to
>>>participate in substantive discussions rather than spamming a la Giwer. I
>>>challenge you to point out a single message in this forum supporting the
>>>censorship of liars on the basis of content. 
>
>>    Matt Giwer posted several supporting the censorhip of alleged defamatory
>>lies (i.e., libel) prior to judicial determination of same, provided that
>>the libel was not authored by Matt Giwer.
>
>	That, as expected, is false.
>
>	I supported ONLY stopping a website from violating copyright.
>	
>	But then of course, holohuggers always lie.

    *yawn*.  Check out the quotes below.  But please don't take my word
for it.  Verify them with the DejaNews URLs.  I really, really, really
want to see if Mr. Giwer is crazy enough to try to claim that I have
somehow broken into DejaNews and altered his words which are archived
there, which prove he is (once again) lying above.

    Why does he lie so often?  Clearly our 163 IQ type is admitting he
doesn't have the intellectual horsepower to beat a mere holohugger in
debate without resorting to lies and deception.  Poor boy, it's really the
best he can do.  And it would appear he's self-deluded enough to believe
he's winning with his antics.  This is so sad.


    When he started this charade, he mentioned both copyright and libel. 
But then he dropped the copyright, and concentrated on the alleged libel.

1996/03/09

       What could be recovered is not worth the cost of recovery.  I am
simply pointing it out.  I make  money on such work.  He has
appropriated something of value of mine for his own use.
        Beyond that of course it the libel.  The page will go away, one way or
another.

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8650598&server=dnserver.db96q1


1996/03/17

        You folks have a rather juvenile idea of what fun is.  Or are you now
pretending I was talking about pursuing the copyright rather than the
libel?  

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10363769&server=dnserver.db96q1


    Unless the following is a forgery.  But Mr. Giwer did not deny sending
this email which he quoted from Rack Jite's post: 

1996/03/19

>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:27:08 -0500
>From: Matt Giwer 
>To: root@turnpike.net
>Subject: your complicity in libel

>You are carrying this page.  
>http://emporium.turnpike.net/H/HR/giwer.htm
>If you check my page with contact.html you will find the page you are
>carrying clearly refers to me.  
>I request this false and malicious libel be removed immediately.
>--------

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=
%3c4il7fa$90c@wi.combase.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q1


    Note that the subject of the message was the libel, no mention of a
copyright violation.  And now he takes credit - no mention of Combase being
responsible:

1996/03/21

        As I said the libelous and and copyright violating page of David
Dahlman has gone done.  If anyone feels harmed by any of his pages
simply contact the webmaster at his service provider.  And it only
took me four days from discovering the libelous and thieving page
existed.   
        If anyone else has a problem with this hate site simply contact the
webmaster who is very agreeable to eliminate such tortable violations
fo the law. 

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=9954589&server=dnserver.db96q1


    I also forgot to mention Mr. Giwer's harrassment or conspiracy to harrass
c2.org:

1996/03/22

        We are now in the process of seeing if c2.org will continue to host
your libel now that they have been informed.

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10095578&server=dnserver.db96q1

    (By the way, I note that the page http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/giwer.htm
is still on c2.org.  I guess Mr. Giwer can bluster and threaten and bully,
but that's all he's capable of doing.)


    But he changed his tune when I pointed out his censorship.  Too bad
about that email from Mr. Giwer to Volant Turnpike, which he did not deny
sending at the time Rack Jite posted it.

1996/06/09

 Anything that happened to Dahlman's page had only peripherally to do with
me in that I pointed it out to Combase.

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8905677&server=dnserver.dbapr



    Now the latest true truth from Mr. Giwer is that it was due to the
copyright.  Come back tomorrow to see if Mr. Giwer can come up with
another story which doesn't match any of the previous ones.

    You would think a 163 IQ type could keep his lies straight.

    Note that I take no position on whether the page is libelous or 
copyright violating or not.  I merely point out the following facts:

    - Mr. Giwer has told contradictory stories about who complained
      and why.

    - There has been no judicial determination of libel, nor of copyright
      violation, criminal or otherwise.  Therefore Rack Jite is currently
      legally innocent.  Rather than pursuing remedies through proper
      legal channels, Mr. Giwer has, by his own definition, harrassed
      and engaged in conspiracy to harrass Rack Jite's service providers
      in order to suppress the page in question as a shortcut.  If he
      is not able to convince a court that his complaint has legal merit,
      then he was indeed engaging in the same kind of harrassment and
      censorship campaign that he alleges was used against him.

Not a personal attack, just stating documented fact.  Again, do please
check out the URLs cited above; wouldn't want Mr. Giwer to claim I am
taking things out of context to fool people.  Not that he has any scruples
about doing that when it suits his purposes.  He's edited posts of mine so
that he can reply to a very distorted version of what I said rather than
trying to address the whole argument, which he was clearly incapable of
rebutting. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Jul 10 06:53:13 PDT 1996
Article: 49401 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Unscientific opinion poll - responses wanted
Date: 10 Jul 1996 05:47:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4rvu80$5pn@access4.digex.net>
References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4roveh$os4@access4.digex.net> <4rp7e3$s01@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rp7e3$s01@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
 wrote a lot of outright lies, half-truths,
evasions, distortions, confessions and displays of abysmal ignorance, and
other assorted nonsense, wherein he asked one cogent question: 

>	Do you really think the lurkers are swallowing this?  

    Well, here's another one of those scientifically invalid opinion
polls.  Hey, lurkers, speak up!  Anyone out there swallowing Mr. Giwer's
lies?  Has anyone missed my repeated documentation of them, or the 'lies'
folder on http://www.nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (or www.nizkor.eye.net) in Mr.
Giwer's directory under 'people'? 

    Twice in the last 24 hours, I posted a collection of Mr.  Giwer's
self-contradictory statements about the censorship of Rack Jite's web
pages from Volant Turnpike, fully documented with DejaNews URLs.  If you
missed it, I can email a copy to you. (Wouldn't want to spam.)  Just ask.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Jul 10 06:53:14 PDT 1996
Article: 49405 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 10 Jul 1996 06:13:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4rvvp7$8i4@access4.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rs72a$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rsk0r$our@access5.digex.net> <4rvr4r$djm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rvr4r$djm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 23:34:51 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>    The only thing I see wrong here is with your ability to read,
>>understand, and evaluate what you read.  Zyklon will vary depending on
>>room size, concentration, and temperature.  Witnesses will vary in their
>>estimates of times.  Only a very stupid person would not take into
>>consideration these very simple points.  You are not taking these very
>>simple points into consideration.  The conclusion is left as exercise to
>>the reader. 
>
>
>	Sorry but the variations are from instantanious to two days with a
>second application and you know that.  You have read all the crap about
>the kill times here.

    I have read all your crap, yes.  I don't recall _two_ days, perhaps
you'd care to post it?  I recall one claim of the next day, from the
initial experiment, with most of the people dead.  Obviously you are
ignorant of the concept of LDxx, where xx is the percentage of test
subjects killed by a given dose.  And as usual you are taking outliers
>from  the data points and giving them equal weight with the main cluster.
Completely dishonest, as you know.


>You also know that the time to death in the majority of the "eyewitness"
>testimonies vary from 10 to 20 minutes for both HCN and CO period, no
>questions asked.  
>
>	That makes them both equally lethal and you know that.  

    Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point.

    Care to supply a quote where a witness - even one - said that death
occurred in ten minutes from CO in any of the Reinhard camps?  Care to
supply a quote which said that it took 20 minutes to _die_ (not reopen the
doors, but _die_) from HCN in any of the Krema gassings?  The majority of
the testimonies _I_ have seen give a time which is from Zyklon drop to
opening of the doors for removal of bodies.  But for Kremas II and III,
the majority of that time is for the powered ventilation system to remove
the gas.  And even for IV and V, this does not tell you if they left a
bunch of dead bodies sitting in the chamber for ten minutes or so to err
on the side of caution.  And then in the Reinhard camps there were
testimonies that even after 30 minutes, which is the majority of what _I_
have seen, there were frequently people who were not quite dead and had to
be shot. 

    When you are ready to deal with the subject honestly do please let me
know.

    Why do you lie so much?  Are you admitting your intellect is too tiny
to beat a mere holohugger in debate without lying, deceptive editing,
half-truths, and deceptive word games?  Or is this merely early-onset
Alzheimer's?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 10 12:39:47 PDT 1996
Article: 49448 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:46:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4ru2e1$ilk@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4ro3uv$ivb@access4.digex.net> <31E000D9.6947@unb.ca> <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:24:25 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>
>>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>>> >       There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>>> 
>>>     There may be bomb craters.  There may be evidence of a fire.  But
>>> establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)?  Or the intentionality
>>> of the fire?  What physical evidence do you have for that?  None, of
>>> course.
>
>>On the other hand, would he care to demonstrate why Dresden was hit
>>by bombs instead of a multiple meteorite strike?
>
>	Did god provide the bomb sight films?  

    Who put the caption on the films?  How do you know what town is down
there?  Is there some sort of big sign like there is in Hollywood, saying
"Dresden?"

    And of course we would also have to ask if the films show the
firestorm allegedly caused by that bombing, or whether even if they do it
indicates a true causal connection rather than a coincidence involving
Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow.

    Then of course we must ask if there is a documented chain of custody
on those films.

    And what _were_ Steven Spielberg and the KGB doing on the day those
films were made, hmn?

    So when are you going to get around to providing physical evidence of
this alleged allied firebombing of Dresden?  I see none.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 10 12:39:48 PDT 1996
Article: 49466 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 8 Jul 1996 23:49:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4rsksp$pe6@access5.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ro0iv$ign@access4.digex.net> <4rs72d$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rs72d$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 7 Jul 1996 05:38:39 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rl43t$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>Equinox  wrote:
>
>>[nerve gas question of unclear intent deleted]
>
>	There was no nerve gas question.  
>
>>>	It was precisely this matter that my skepticism about the gassing.  I
>>>had no idea what gas was used.  I had only heard about gassing.
>>>
>>>	But I had heard of the times involved and nerve gas appeared to the
>>>likely agent.
>
>>    Mr. Giwer has demonstrably misunderstood the descriptions.
>
>	What is there about death in any time frame from instantaneous to 20
>minutes have I not understood?  

    The difference between "after a few minutes there was silence" and
"after some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the
gas chamber was opened."  You said from this description that the
screaming went on for tens of minutes!

    http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=7174330&server=dnserver.db96q1

    How many times have I pointed this one out to you?  You forgot it
_again_, didn't you?

    Alec says you were better once.  All I can say is, I certainly hope
so.


>>>	When it turned out to be plain old cyanide the entire house of cards
>>>collapsed.  
>
>>    Mr. Giwer has misread so many things that it is not clear how he can
>>be capable of forming any valid opinion about any of this.  He neither
>>understands nor remembers what he reads.
>
>	When lacking in substance ... 

    Your illiteracy causes you to see problems where there are none.  It
is you that has a problem with substance here. 

    Then there is your on-again, off-again understanding of the
relationships between temperature, concentration, room size, and time to
death when using Zyklon.  Hell, I'd be damn suspicious if there _weren't_
variation in times.  Then there's your complete lack of understanding of
how to recognize and deal with ambiguities in wording, and your cockamamie
idea that not mentioning something is the same as explicitly saying it
didn't happen.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Jul 10 12:39:48 PDT 1996
Article: 49471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.mci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 10 Jul 1996 06:27:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4s00ij$9vr@access4.digex.net>
References: <00002fc9+00008a90@msn.com> <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net>  <4rvtsr$p25@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rvtsr$p25@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:35:22 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>># It would be a tactical error for the likes of the former
>># professor, or the former impersonating professor, whichever 
>># the case may be, 
>
>>Ah, that old inferiority complex kicks in. Perhaps you'll
>>clarify your statement about me being an "impersonating professor"?
>
>	Of course, attack the messenger, not the message.  
>
>	It is so much easier.  
>

    Yes, that's exactly what Dr. Keren was pointing out in Tom Moran's
post.  Neither Tom Moran nor Matt Giwer is capable of dealing with the
material, so they make unsubstantiated charges of lying - all the while
filling their posts with lies.  But please do not believe me.  A directory
on http://www.almanac.bc.ca (or www.nizkor.eye.net) is devoted to Mr. 
Giwer's lies; you can see discussion many _messages_ he has posted which
are false. 

    All Mr. Giwer can do is _assert_ that his opponents are lying.  He
can't _document_ it.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 10 17:15:03 PDT 1996
Article: 49496 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 10 Jul 1996 16:19:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <4s1383$k5r@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ru2e1$ilk@access5.digex.net> <4rvfvq$fla@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rvfvq$fla@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 9 Jul 1996 12:46:57 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:24:25 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>>
>>>>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>>
>>>>> >       There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>>>>> 
>>>>>     There may be bomb craters.  There may be evidence of a fire.  But
>>>>> establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)?  Or the intentionality
>>>>> of the fire?  What physical evidence do you have for that?  None, of
>>>>> course.
>>>
>>>>On the other hand, would he care to demonstrate why Dresden was hit
>>>>by bombs instead of a multiple meteorite strike?
>>>
>>>	Did god provide the bomb sight films?  
>
>>    Who put the caption on the films?  How do you know what town is down
>>there?  Is there some sort of big sign like there is in Hollywood, saying
>>"Dresden?"
>
>	You are playing games.  Official records of reel nunbers assigned to
>particular operations exist.  

    And official records of the Auschwitz Bauleitung exist.  File numbers,
etc.  Sorry, there is no difference save in what you choose to question
and what you choose to accept.  You know that.

    You have seen the Dresden evidence yourself?  When and where? 


>>    And of course we would also have to ask if the films show the
>>firestorm allegedly caused by that bombing, or whether even if they do it
>>indicates a true causal connection rather than a coincidence involving
>>Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow.
>
>>    Then of course we must ask if there is a documented chain of custody
>>on those films.
>
>>    And what _were_ Steven Spielberg and the KGB doing on the day those
>>films were made, hmn?
>
>>    So when are you going to get around to providing physical evidence of
>>this alleged allied firebombing of Dresden?  I see none.
>
>	Sorry, Stone, you have made a terrible case.

    "Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point."

    Not one word you have written here establishes any link between the
bombing and the fire.  And you know it.  Lots of cities were bombed in
WWII.  Why was Dresden so special?


>  Were there the slightest
>fraction of the documentation of mass extermination gassing as there is
>for Dresden, you folks would trot it out and make it squeal.

    And had Seelo"we come off, with the prospect of Bomber Harris standing
in the dock at the London War Crimes Tribunals, how much of this alleged
physical evidence of Allied war crimes - a film of a bombing run, which in
any event from your description sounds indistinguishable from thousands of
films of bombing runs of unbarbecued cities - would you have?  None, of
course.


>	But you folks have no such trail of physical evidence.  

    Assuming you have actually seen this film, which I doubt, at best you
have evidence of an ordinary bombing of a city you cannot identify, but
merely accept is Dresden with no personal verification of the captioning. 
And you know it. 


>	I have outlined exactly what is equivalent but you folks can not find
>even one picture of anyone on a roof much less pouring anything into a
>hole.   You folks can not find a single picture of the results of
>gassing while people are inside the "chamber" much less anything more
>seriously incriminating.  And despite all of this the best you can
>provide is what you consider "equally damning" pictures of people in
>separate lines.

    I never said they were equally damning.  Why are you lying about what
I said? 

    All I am saying is that you have not yet presented sufficient physical
evidence of this alleged criminal firebombing of Dresden.  And the
responses I have given you so far are exactly parallel to responses you
have given to evidence for a conclusion you do not choose to believe.  You
know that. 


>	Give it up.

    Handwaving to cover over the fact that you have only presented here
documentary (not physical) evidence of bombing of an unknown city, and
evidence of a burned city, but have presented no physical evidence to link
that bombing to the firestorm.  Any honest and objective person reading
your post will admit that for all anyone can tell from what you have
written here, the film you describe here as evidence could have been an
ordinary bombing, not a firebombing. 

    You have been presented documentary evidence of planning for and tests
revealing the use of cyanide in the Kremas.  You have been presented with
evidence of large numbers of deaths.  You have told us that you have been
presented with no physical evidence linking the two, and that what is
described could have been for ordinary pesticidal delousing of a morgue,
not homicidal gassing. 

    The parallel is obvious to anyone but a Dresdenhugger like you.

    There is no difference save in what evidence you choose to believe (or
what quantity of evidence you choose to believe, but the threshhold
quantity is entirely your arbitrary subjective decision) and what evidence
you choose to reject with unsupported assertions of forgery, false
captioning, morbid jokes in official documents, etc.  I cannot change
that. 


>  You don't have jack.  

    Excuse me, I don't have to have jack.  You are the one attempting to
show me physical evidence of the war crime firebombing of Dresden.  You
have yet to do so.  Indeed, from your surprisingly feeble responses so
far, it would appear that I hold all the aces.


>	You are trying to play a game without a full deck.

    As anyone can see, all I have done is call your Dresdenhugger bluff. 
Not one word in your post describes anything different about this film
>from  that of an ordinary bombing run that would enable the viewer to
distinguish between the two.  And you know it.

    So where is your physical evidence of a criminal firebombing of
Dresden?  I still don't see it from your most recent post.  You will have
to do better than this.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:10 PDT 1996
Article: 49501 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: 10 Jul 1996 19:36:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4s1epd$sqq@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qng0m$mqi@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4r7ihe$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
  wrote:
>In article <4r7ihe$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>
>> I see, a 14 year old was considering publication and knew how to make
>> publication worthy changes.

    Do you have a problem with that?  I was ten years old when I helped my
father edit a small booklet on fishing with nightcrawlers, suggesting
wording changes for clarity and eliminating some clumsy phrasings.  (To
clarify, the booklet was not by my father; he was editing and I helped.)

    Of course the fact that you are fifty-one and still cannot correctly
interpret "after a few minutes there was silence" may have something to do
with your apparent skepticism here.  But your egocentric view of what is
possible is your problem, not mine or Anne Frank's. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:11 PDT 1996
Article: 49520 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 10 Jul 1996 17:48:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <4s18f5$olc@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ru3t8$jir@access5.digex.net> <4rvgij$eon@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rvgij$eon@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 9 Jul 1996 13:12:08 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	I have been over this territory before.  You have not been paying
>>>attention.  There are records of the mission planning, the mission
>>>briefings, 
>
>>    Writing down testimony does not make it a document, remember?  That
>>was your response about the letter to Rauff.
>
>>    Perhaps you would like to quote from them where they say that the city
>>would be firebombed, not just bombed?  Got a reference?  I thought not.
>
>Sorry about that but it was announced in all the newspapers at the time
>that the intention was to cause a firestorm and the announcement was
>that it was successful.  Made all the headlines.  What have you missed?

    Rather it is a question of what you have obviously missed.  After a 
number of terrorist bombings there have been multiple claims of credit.  
Obviously they cannot all be correct, and in some cases the investigating 
agencies have disbelieved all of the claims, which were only made for 
propaganda purposes.  Your ignorance of such matters is glaring.  There 
is nothing in what you have presented so far to rule out the possibility 
that the Allies merely took advantage of a coincidence to undermine 
German morale.

    Oops.  Excuse me.  The celestial buzzer just sounded.  Your newspaper
headlies (sic) are not physical evidence.  They are testimony, and unsworn
at that.  Therefore by your standards they are not evidence at all.  But 
you know that.


>>    But even then, we would have to ask if this could not have been just a
>>morbid sense of humor?  Got a chain of custody for those mission records? 
>
>	Yes.  

    Obviously making it up as you go.  Please describe this chain of
custody.  Where did you go to view those mission records?  You _have_ seen
them personally, have you not?  Remember, secondary sources are not
acceptable. 


>>It is only one bombing mission out of many.  It is an anomaly just as you
>>say the Vergasungskeller memo was an anomaly.  Are we not required to look
>>for alternative explanations of anomalies like this?  Have you done so?
>
>You would attempt to compare literally thousands of mission records and
>many press releases to one anomaly.  You are playing a fools game.  

    Press releases?!  Obviously you must believe everything that dribbles 
out of whitehouse.gov.  It is only one step from there to swallowing 
stories of satanic child molestation.

    As for thousands of mission records, it is not clear what you are
getting at here.  You seem to be seriously confused.  Allow me to correct
your ignorance.  Your fellow Dresdenhuggers agree that there were only two
missions involved in the alleged criminal firebombing of Dresden, the 
first of which did the majority of the damage.  That is one mission 
record, not thousands, and you have yet to describe what it is about that 
mission record which distinguishes it from every other mission where no 
barbecue was reported.  And if your chain of custody for that one mission 
record is damaged, you have nothing.


>>number reels of bomb site films associated with the mission,
>>>before and after reconnaisance pictures with associated reel numbers
>>>related to the mission.

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc was still a fallacy last time I looked. 
When were the "after"  pictures taken?  Two days after the mission?  What
in those pictures rules out the possibility that Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow
didn't kick over a lantern to ignite a broken gas main ten minutes after
the last plane turned back for home?  The bombing would have been a
contributing factor in that case, but that is not the same thing as a war
crime firebombing, as you know. 


>>>There are inventory records of the bombs
>>>assigned to the mission.  

    Do you seriously expect anyone to believe those records prove anything
about where those bombs ended up?  As you know, pilots returning to base
after an aborted mission had to drop their bombs in the Channel for safety
reasons. 

    You might as well say that inventory records of Zyklon in a camp with
lots of dead Jews and Gypsies are physical evidence that Jews and Gypsies
were gassed with that Zyklon.  Only a holohugger would believe that one.


>>>	All of it points to the smoking gun, physical evidence of aerial
>>>bombardment.  
>>>
>>>	Now where were you when I recited the above last time?  Bad news feed?  
>
>>    Whee, there was aerial bombardment of many cities.  If mission records
>>of bombings are sufficient evidence of firebombing, then every city in
>>Europe had a Dresden-style barbecue, obviously. 
>
>>    Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow is looking guiltier all the time.
>
>	You are playing a fool's game which you should not have started.

    Excuse me, good sir, but you are the brainless fish who just tried to
offer me press releases in response to my request for physical evidence. 
No scientist would ever make such a stupid mistake.  Sorry for pointing
that out. 


>	You have cider in your eye.  

    You are mistaking my cup for my eye.  And the yellow liquid with which
you are filling it is not cider.  See your eye doctor - perhaps that is
the cause of your significant reading disabilities. 

    Press releases.  Hmph.  Do please get back to me when you have some
physical evidence of the criminal firebombing of Dresden.  Post hoc ergo
propter hoc fallacies and mission records indistinguishable from those of
bombing runs that did not start a serious barbecue do not qualify, as you
know.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49550 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIGGER COWARDS
Date: 9 Jul 1996 16:35:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4rufr7$smd@access5.digex.net>
References: <31DF89E4.1F72@hkabc.net> <31e248a6.3892754@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e248a6.3892754@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>Doctor JJ  wrote:
>
>>NIGGER COWARDS
>>
>>by
>>Doctor J.J.
>
>	This guy could be a 'plant'. 

    Quite a few people seem to think you're close to being in a persistent
vegetative state yourself, Tommy.  "Couch potato," judging by the research
skills you've demonstrated so far in matters such as the menorah case.


>In the event he isn't, I would point
>out he uses the word "coward" and signs with a alias. 

    A lot of your friends sign with aliases.  Haven't you noticed?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:12 PDT 1996
Article: 49575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Back by popular request
Date: 11 Jul 1996 03:09:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4s29c4$mac@access4.digex.net>
References: <4s1l9f$idi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4s1l9f$idi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>               The testimony of Moshe Lundelthal

     .... alias Matt Giwer, who earlier teased us that he had made this
one up out of whole cloth ... 

>[...] I wished myself dead for being alive and 
>found solace in knowing my wish could not be granted.  I loathed 
>myself every minute of the day and tormented myself by night.
>
>     I learned that hell is being alive when I should be dead.

    Interesting.  (With no apologies whatsoever to Tom Moran.)
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:13 PDT 1996
Article: 49601 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Antisemitic in the USA
Date: 11 Jul 1996 03:16:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4s29ns$me4@access4.digex.net>
References: <4s1phi$2jm@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4s1phi$2jm@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	It is interesting to note what antisemitic things the rest of the world
>can say.
>
>	For instance the 7/10/96 ITN Network News attributes Net'n'Yahoo's warm
>reception at the White House and standing ovations in Congress despite
>his announcement of intentions to violate all previous peace agreements
>to the power ot the Jewish lobby in the US, noting it is an election
>year.  
>
>	It is also noted that no major US media noted the reason for this lack
>of condemnation of the change of policy.  
>
>	It is to be noted that some time in the next four years Israel will
>"begin to reduce" its dependence on the $1500 per person economic
>subsidy provided by the US.  

    And the relevance of this to a discussion of revisionism, the purpose
of this group which you wanted to get back on track is ... ?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:14 PDT 1996
Article: 49607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 11 Jul 1996 03:55:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4s2c0s$mu6@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E2E11D.3AAB@unb.ca> <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Jul 1996 19:45:49 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:24:25 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>> 
>>> >Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>> 
>>> >> >       There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>>> >>
>>> >>     There may be bomb craters.  There may be evidence of a fire.  But
>>> >> establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)?  Or the intentionality
>>> >> of the fire?  What physical evidence do you have for that?  None, of
>>> >> course.
>>> 
>>> >On the other hand, would he care to demonstrate why Dresden was hit
>>> >by bombs instead of a multiple meteorite strike?
>>> 
>>>         Did god provide the bomb sight films?
>
>>Obviously faked.  Why would anyone take pictures or make any kind
>>of notes about a crime they were in the progress of committing?
>>Did at any time those films show a big sign saying "Welcome to
>>Dresden"?  Can you produce one of these alledged bombers?
>
>>(See, it's easy to use the Revisionist Method!)
>
>	However that is not the "revisionist method" in the least.  
>
>	The revisionist method is to point out that there are not even faked
>pictures of gassing being presented.  No pictures at all.  NOTHING in
>the way of physical evidence.  

    No, the revisionist method is to reject all such pictures and evidence
as being faked or improperly/questionably captioned or not showing the
cause of death of the dead bodies in the picture or not proving that live
people were in the room at the same time as the cyanide whose traces still
linger in the walls.  Point to the cyanide traces, they don't show people
in the room.  Show pictures of dead people, they don't indicate that
cyanide was the cause of death.  Round and round and round we go....

    Show a document naming a "Vergasungskeller," and it is rejected as a
forgery without any forensic testing being offered.  (Burden of proof is
on the one claiming forgery.)  Show a letter talking about gassing vans,
_confirmed by the recipient of the letter in a deposition given in Chile
where the recipient was apparently safe from prosecution_, and the
response is to raise a specious complaint about translation accuracy and
then develop amnesia about it.

    Then the revisionist method is to _pretend_ that because they have
raised a bunch of objections of this nature, that NO physical evidence
(which they have seen but rejected as being insufficiently probative) has
been presented. 

    But as we have seen, many of these objections could also be raised
about physical evidence of such things as the alleged criminal firebombing
of Dresden.  Mr. Giwer's answers to a number of such criticisms (other
than mere assertion and handwaving)  have not yet appeared on my server as
of this writing. 


>	You should start paying more attention.  

    You should stop lying.  Who do you think you are fooling besides
yourself?  Care to stop weaseling about the letter about gassing vans or
gas vans, take your pick, which Rauff confirmed receiving in his 1971
deposition in Chile?  Physical evidence corroborated by testimony.  You
asked for it and you have been presented with it.  You ran away from it
and now you dishonestly pretend you have never heard of it.  Deal with it
honestly for a change. 

    But you will never do that.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:15 PDT 1996
Article: 49615 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 11 Jul 1996 04:30:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>   <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:79360 alt.revisionism:49615 talk.politics.european-union:4760

In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:03:11 +0200, skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger
>Skok) wrote:
>
>>In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>>                            THE AMERICAN WAY
>> 
>>>   In the USA, hydrogen cyanide gas has been used for the executions. The 
>>> procedure, as laid down by law (to effect the death of the convict without 
>>> endangering the prison staff!) is as follows:
>>>   Firstly, the convict is strapped down in a chair in a small chamber.
>>>   Secondly, the chamber is sealed.
>>>   Thirdly, sodium cyanid crystals are poured into a container of 
>>> sulphuric acid. This quickly releases large quantities of hydrogen cyanide
>>> gas which kills the convict within a matter of seconds.
>>>   Fourthly, the chamber is then flushed with ammonia gas which reacts with 
>>> the hydrogen cyanid gas to form harmless crystals. 
>>>   Fifthly, indicators are used to check that the chamber is no longer lethal.
>>>   Sixthly, attendants (wearing gas masks and protective clothing) enter the  
>>> chamber through an air-lock and brush the convict's hair and clothing to
>>> dislodge any gas which may still adhering to them. 
>
>
>>Fine, you did it, Ole. That is exactly the argument presented by
>>Leuchter, who certainly knows how Americans murder their
>>convicts, since he designs gas-chambers and other killing 
>>machines for a living.
>
>>The descriptions of the "American Way" are probably correct. At
>>least I don't see anything that I can contradict. I have not heard
>>of the use of Ammonia gas - I suppose you're talking of NH3 - being
>>used to flush the chamber and I don't know whether the implied
>>chemical reaction between it and HCN is possible but that's not
>>so very important actually. For the basic flaw of your reasoning
>>is that it assumes that current American standards for safety at 
>>the workplace had been applied to the prisoners who had to drag
>>the corpses of their unfortunate brothers and sisters in suffering 
>>out of the gas chambers. 
>
>>Of course the American State governments having gas chambers
>>operated in their prisons go to very great lengths to protect the
>>guards operating the chambers. They don't want to get sued by
>>some disgruntled guard over having suffered cyanide poisoning
>>and now not being able to smoke without coughing, or something
>>like that. 
>
>	On the flip side of the news, according to absolutely reliable and
>unquestionable eyewitnesses, there was no concern whatsoever about
>anyone dying and no reports of any of them doing so.  
>
>	Further we have clear claims by the holohuggers that this gas was
>exhausted from an uncertain number of "little chimneys" approximately at
>ground level without regard to who might have been down wind of it.  
>
>	The problem with your explanation is that it is totally your creation
>and not supported in any manner by the eyewitnesses.  


    The problem with your response is that the revisionist writer
Friedrich Berg has admitted that the delousing chambers at Auschwitz did
not have any high chimneys either.  Apparently you believe that everyone
in the neighborhood was in danger of dropping dead after a delousing.  Yet
there seems to have been no concern about anyone dying from delousing of
clothing and no reports of anyone doing so.  Zyklon was also used to
delouse barracks which had no chimneys; did you think they had to evacuate
the whole camp?  Just how close do you think the Kremas were to anything
else?  You have no idea, do you?  Why do you not correct your terminal
ignorance before discussing these matters? 

    Then there is also your idiotic belief that you have seen all the
testimonies and your even more idiotic notion that you have accurately
understood and remembered them, which anyone here can see you have not and
can not.  Care to try "after a few minutes there was silence" again?  Now,
did the witness say the screaming went on for "tens of minutes" as you
earlier offered that testimony to support?

    Give it up.  Alec is right.  You are not intellectually capable of
dealing with what is presented to you.  If you had half the mind you
delude yourself into thinking you have, you would not need to lie and
deceive and evade the way you do.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:15 PDT 1996
Article: 49618 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 10 Jul 1996 16:14:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4s12vc$ju4@access5.digex.net>
References: <00002fc9+00008a90@msn.com>  <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>As I said, I prefer to wait and see *exactly* why the site was
>>closed. Ok, big guy? As I said, if it's *only* because of the
>>so-called "revisionist" views, I strongly protest this action.
>>
>	It would be a tactical error for the likes of the former
>professor, or the former impersonating professor, whichever the case
>may be, to come out and downright endorse the censorship. Any
>statement he says in support of free speech I see as just a tacit
>approval to give the illusion he is for free speech. 
>	My personal opinion based on my long time experience of
>witnessing the factions constant barrage against open debate about the
>Holocaust or Zionism.

    It would be a tactical error for the likes of Tom Moran, or the serial
rape-murderer, child molester, and flagrant jaywalker hiding out under the
pseudonym Tom Moran, whichever the case may be, to come out and downright
endorse mass murder of all Jews.  Any statement he says in support of
allowing Jews to live one could see as just a tacit approval to give the
illusion he is against genocide. 

    My personal opinion based on my long time experience of witnessing
Tommy's constant barrage about all the terrible things done by Jews.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 07:22:16 PDT 1996
Article: 49638 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The PSNW "contract"
Date: 11 Jul 1996 02:57:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4s28l6$m1v@access4.digex.net>
References: <4s1iq3$ftq@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4s1iq3$ftq@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>Terms and Conditions of
>                      Protosource Network usage.
>
>               Following are the terms of usage for all customers of The
>Protosource Network.
>               By using The Protosource Network, you agree that you
>accept these terms and
>               conditions. We recommend that all users read this. 
>
>Use of any information obtained via
>The Protosource Network is at your own risk. The
>Protosource Network
>specifically denies any responsibility for the accuracy or quality of
>information obtained through its services. 

    Well, there you have it.  They are not responsible for the accuracy of
the information contained in their terms of service.  :-/
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 10:18:23 PDT 1996
Article: 49665 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 11 Jul 1996 10:48:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4s348h$p5r@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net> <4s2lih$jep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s2lih$jep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 11 Jul 1996 04:30:26 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:03:11 +0200, skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger
>>>Skok) wrote:

[discussion of safety measures in American gas chambers deleted for space]


>>>>Of course the American State governments having gas chambers
>>>>operated in their prisons go to very great lengths to protect the
>>>>guards operating the chambers. They don't want to get sued by
>>>>some disgruntled guard over having suffered cyanide poisoning
>>>>and now not being able to smoke without coughing, or something
>>>>like that. 
>>>
>>>	On the flip side of the news, according to absolutely reliable and
>>>unquestionable eyewitnesses, there was no concern whatsoever about
>>>anyone dying and no reports of any of them doing so.  
>>>
>>>	Further we have clear claims by the holohuggers that this gas was
>>>exhausted from an uncertain number of "little chimneys" approximately at
>>>ground level without regard to who might have been down wind of it.  
>>>
>>>	The problem with your explanation is that it is totally your creation
>>>and not supported in any manner by the eyewitnesses.  
>
>
>>    The problem with your response is that the revisionist writer
>>Friedrich Berg has admitted that the delousing chambers at Auschwitz did
>>not have any high chimneys either. 
>
>	I speak for myself.  
>
>	Tell it to him.  

    Your physical evidence of chimneys on the delousing chambers?  None,
of course.

    And of course there is the rest of my post which you edited out
without warning and without answering.  Clearly your are unable to deal
with it. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 10:18:24 PDT 1996
Article: 49674 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann')
Date: 10 Jul 1996 19:07:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4s1d2r$rn7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qvr62$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rkj1o$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rqf7a$cd7@access1.digex.net> <4rt1ud$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rt1ud$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1996 04:00:42 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>>You don't even realize that most men know as much about how to scream as
>>>how to yodel.
>
>>    I was able to yodel the first time I tried it though I admit that I
>>might be unusual.  Screaming is much easier. 
>
>>    Mr. Giwer is clearly projecting his own handicaps upon other people. 
>>Unless he thinks the pitch is significant, and that what men do ought to
>>be called "yelling?"  Well, Mr. Giwer has already amply demonstrated the
>>"paupacy" of his skills in the English language.  What's one more example?
>
>	You are still playing the fool on this one in your pretension that you
>actually know women whose speaking voice is in the frequency range of a
>scream.  


1. scream \'skre-m\ vb [ME scremen; akin to OHG scri-an to scream] 1a1: to
   voice a sudden sharp loud cry 1a2: to produce harsh high tones 1b: to
   make or move with a noise resembling a scream 2: to speak or write with
   intense hysterical expressions 3: to produce a vivid startling effect :
   to utter with or as if with a scream
2. scream n 1: a loud sharp penetrating cry or noise 2: one that provokes
   mirth


    Only one of the above definitions says anything about pitch, and even
that only does so with the vague term "high" which is relative. Definition
2 of the verb can easily be performed by men or women.  Your continued
illiteracy is noted, or is it just that you are playing a fool's game by
pretending that the witness must be using the definition of "scream" that
you choose?  Is this juvenile nonsense the best a 163 IQ type can do? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 10:18:25 PDT 1996
Article: 49680 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's  FTP Archive
Date: 10 Jul 1996 18:49:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4s1c1m$r19@access5.digex.net>
References: <01bb6db8.2e18ae00$afded3c6@default>  <01bb6e66.c4ccdb60$83cfd3c6@default>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <01bb6e66.c4ccdb60$83cfd3c6@default>,
Duncan Coons <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>
>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
>...
>> "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If you feel you've been erroneously labelled as pseudonymous, I'll talk
>> it over with Ken McVay.  The first question that comes to mind is, why
>> are you posting from Netcom's Toronto site but giving a Compuserve email
>> address?
>
>Keep me pseudonymous; I really don't care. The explanation, though, is
>incredibly simple. Suspicion must be an occupational hazard in the
>anti-hate business. If I post in future, perhaps I'll appear as John
>Smith, just to make things easy.

    Sad to say, there is a lot of forgery going on, and it is not limited
to one side or even to those of an ideological bent - commercial spammers
sometimes do it to avoid taking the heat.  There is a poster, most likely
marduk@ix.netcom.com, who is forging articles through Netcom's Toronto
site which appear to the careless reader as if they came from
mgiwer@ix.netcom.com.  (The Toronto posting host is one of the signs that
flags the forgery.)  I have documented reams of lies by Mr. Giwer, but
still I "flag" the forgeries by following up to them with a warning
whenever I see them.

    I further note that your article ID does not match either of the two
sources.  To anyone familiar with the 'net, a discrepancy this blatant is
prima facie evidence of something highly irregular; the headers indicate
that the article cannot be authenticated as coming from the ostensible
poster without sending an email to that address asking for confirmation. 
What _is_ your incredibly simple explanation of a CompuServe address, a
Netcom Toronto posting host, and an article ID that simply ends in
"@default?"  If you were someone travelling who uses a Netcom account as a
backup to a CIS primary, and set your sender ID to your preferred mail
address, I'd still expect a Netcom article ID. 

    Posted and emailed with Cc: to Jamie McCarthy.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 11:55:31 PDT 1996
Article: 49689 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.radio.org!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 11 Jul 1996 01:46:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4s24fc$leb@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <4rvgac$eon@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31E4248E.28E5@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <31E4248E.28E5@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison   wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:40:16 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> 
>> ># Did god provide the bomb sight films?
>> 
>> >But "revisionists" always say "photographs can be faked".
>> >Surely, so can films.
>> 
>>     I am aware of no pictures that any holohugger has presented that
>> have ever been subjected to the claim that they are faked.

    Mr. Giwer's ignorance is nobody's problem but his own.


>>  Perhaps you can
>> provide a source for this groundless claim of yours?

    Interesting how Mr. Giwer repeatedly projects his own lack of
knowledge onto other people.


>> I thought not.

    At least he gives an honest explanation of the reason for this
juvenile behavior.


>Try looking up the name "Butz, Arthur R" sometime.  I understand he is
>mentioned on the web site that also has that "Tale of Two Gassings"
>page you so kindly posted the HTML code for.

    See also Walendy, Udo.

    Actually, see also Buchanan, Pat.  This is one that Mr. Giwer should
be aware of if his memory were not like that of the protagonist in Gene
Wolfe's "Soldier of the Mist." 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 15:38:04 PDT 1996
Article: 49728 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!tomato.dussco.com!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: NO nerve gas?]
Date: 10 Jul 1996 06:18:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4s001g$90n@access4.digex.net>
References: <31DCE1FC.1AAA@buffnet.net> <4rt1ug$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <4rvr9m$djm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rvr9m$djm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:31:36 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>># Evidence of that was posted here in the "greater part of" 
>># technical report on it, noting that "greater part of" is a 
>># technical term for "half of" in english 
>
>>Excuse me? "Greater part" means "half"? Does the greater
>>part of English speakers agree to this?
>
>># indicating an exponentially decaying release.  That
>># post lead to 6-12 hours as the 99% release time.
>
>>No, the article specifically noted that, even at below zero
>>temperatures, there was no residue of HCN after "an hour, or
>>at most two".
>
>	Not only was it your post, but you are lying about it.
>
>	SOP for a holohugger.

    "Mere assertion is always the best way to make a point." - Matt Giwer

    No documentation to support Mr. Giwer's charge, as usual.

    I guess this is the best a 163 IQ type can do.  How very sad.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 11 18:47:04 PDT 1996
Article: 49749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Discussion with Giwer begins
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:40:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <4s3sda$f5p@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvs3f$ksu@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4s1721$p99@news.enter.net> <4s2j54$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s2j54$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:

[stuff about Gerstein, which I concede is not physical evidence, snipped]

>On 10 Jul 1996 21:24:17 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>  On 9 Jul 1996 12:12:34 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
>>  
>>>  >We should start at the beginning:  what precisely do you mean by "physical
>>>  >evidence"?  That is, can you either provide a definition, or provide
>>>  >an example of "phsyical evidence" for another historical event that we
>>>  >all agree took place (say, the Battle of Gettysburg)?
>
>>>  	If you have a bad news feed complain. 
>>  
>>>  	I have stated this many times.  
>
>>	You most certainly have not.  You have told us that you know what it 
>>is and theat everybody else should realize what you are talking about.
>
>	Just how do you miss posts directed to you?  You mus really have a
>shitty news feed.  Do you want to keep denying this forever?  

[selections from repost edited for brevity follow:]

>>>  	What can be more clear than that?  
>
>>	A definition of what you consider "physical evidence" for starters.  

[snip]

>>	Please note that I am not requesting an argument that convinces 
>>anyone of the accuracy of you opinion but merely a clear statement of what 
>>it is.
>
>	A smoking gun is usually considered physical evidence.
>
>	How about one picture of bodies inside a gas chamber after gassing as
>soon as the doors are opened?  How about about a long line of people
>carrying bodies out of a building?  How about a picture of someone
>pouring a can of something into a building from a hole in the roof?  
>
>	How about any photographs of the actual gassing process that corresponds
>to the "testimony" but excluding people in lines upon arrival and bodies
>that do not indicate a cause of death?  How a significant fraction of
>those 2000-3000 tons of bone fragments around A-B?  
>
>	And if one wishes to invoke secrecy as a reason for no pictures then one
>needs to produce specific orders against taking the kinds of pictures
>that I describe.  There appears to have been no orders against taking
>the kinds of pictures that have been produced which are excludable as
>being nonspecific to the gassing issue.  
>
>	Now you could go one step further and produce first the design
>specifications for a large scale gas chamber, that means technical
>specs, not simple drawings for inference, and then show the building you
>folks have found in fact matches those specifications.  
>
>	At one point I suggested physical descriptions that matched the layout
>and construction of the building complexes that match the designated
>buildings.  The best that were posted in response produced more
>mismatches than they produced matches.  
>
>	I have no idea what more to tell you folks about what constitutes
>physical evidence.  It appears quite obvious to me.  

    The problem, of course, is that Mr. Giwer was asked for a
_definition_, but he played bait-and-switch and gave _examples_ which are
not the same thing.  This allows him to make it up as he goes, rejecting
anything inconvenient as long as it does not _exactly_ correspond to one
of his examples.

    For example, I have mentioned a letter from Becker to Rauff, which
talked about gassing vans or gas vans.  If Mr. Giwer's responses in the
Dresden thread are any indication, he accepts in principle that documents
can be physical evidence.  The relevant question here is authenticity. 
This letter escapes the "forgeries, all Soviet forgeries" brush because
the recipient Rauff, in a 1972 deposition in Chile, confirmed receiving
such a letter from Becker.  This is testimony supporting physical
evidence, which is the procedure Mr. Giwer had demanded.

    Mr. Giwer's first response was to sidetrack the discussion into the
irrelevant area of whether "Gaswagen" could legitimately be
translated as "gassing van" rather than "gas van."  (I was trying to get
around the ambiguity between gasoline and poison gas which is not present
in German.)

    Now he has amnesia about that document, which as far as I can tell
_ought_ to be up to Mr. Giwer's standards.  So why is not quite obvioius
to him?  It is not a lot of physical evidence but one authenticated piece
is all it takes.  He has not and will not address it honestly.  Instead he
keeps repeating "Zero physical evidence of gassing" like a mantra. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Jul 11 18:47:05 PDT 1996
Article: 49752 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 11 Jul 1996 02:17:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4s26af$lnq@access4.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rt1tg$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <4rvhm6$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4rvhm6$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:15:02 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>># I have pointed to the available physical evidence that
>># does not need one word of testimony to support the event.  
>
>>Such physical evidence exists for the Holocaust as well.
>>But you must know that.
>
>	You know it does not.  
>
>    There is not one picture of anyone on the roof of any building much
>less pouring in anything.  But you know that.  

    And if there were, you would point out that it does not prove that
there is anyone inside the room into which the person is pouring
something, nor that the thing being poured is Zyklon.  But you know that.


>    There is not one picture of any result from any "gas chamber" when
>opened but you know that.

    There is indeed a picture of a bunch of dead bodies being burned in
the open air outside one of the Kremas, taken from inside the Krema, but
you would merely point out that a picture of a bunch of dead bodies does
not tell you how they died, and that nothing in the picture allows a
confident identification of the site as being Birkenau.  Even if they were
recognizably inside one of the underground rooms labeled "Leichenkeller"
in the construction drawings you would object that the picture cannot be
distinguished from one of typhus victims in an ordinary morgue.  But you
know that. 


>    There is sworn testimony of flesh and clothing forming gelatinous
>masses after exposure to HCN but you know that.

    There is no sworn testimony that the latter was the cause of the
former, and you have also dishonestly and deceptively exaggerated the
testimony in paraphrase, but you know that.  Why do you have to deceive
and distort?  It would seem you know your intellect is too feeble to
allow you to win if you debated honestly.


>	Your fucking mass gassing is a sham and you DO know that.  

    Still waiting for physical evidence of the criminal Dresden
firebombing that cannot be answered with one of the objections you have
raised to physical evidence offered for gassing and you DO know that.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 07:00:26 PDT 1996
Article: 49763 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:56:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4s3tak$fr1@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rkrf4$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rvjfg$dva@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31E3D49C.3F8F@gryn.org> <4s1u1a$l2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s1u1a$l2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:04:44 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 9 Jul 1996 02:12:32 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>> 
>>>         This is amazing.
>>> 
>>>         An attorney admitting that the fundamental standards of evidence
>>> required in a capital crime can not be produced because it never
>>> existed.
>
>>This is the level that you've sunk to?!?! This is not the Matt Giwer who
>>took weeks to get nuked in Soapbox!
>
>	Your memories are quite different than mine.  

    Mr. Giwer's memories of discussions are quite different from
DejaNews's memories of discussions.  Mr. Giwer's memories of what he said
sometimes conflict with Mr. Giwer's earlier memories of what he said.  We
have THREE conflicting true truths from him about who did what about Rack
Jite's web pages on Volant Turnpike and why. 

    If I thought all eyewitness memories were as unreliable as Mr. Giwer's
- 75% probability of significant distortion in under a week, from what
I've seen - I might change my mind about how much weight to give
eyewitness testimony.  (I do accept it, but not unquestioningly, and I
give different classes of observations different weights.  This concept
has apparently never occurred to Mr. Giwer - he seems to think that one
must either accept every word or dismiss every word as unreliable.)

[remainder deleted as I'm sure Mr. Giwer will tell me that Alec can speak
for himself]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 07:00:27 PDT 1996
Article: 49852 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!news.kigam.re.kr!gape.elim.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rampant Irony Deficiency Alert
Date: 10 Jul 1996 18:08:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4s19kv$pfj@access5.digex.net>
References: <4qlkul$e8c@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4rt7us$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ru24d$8t0@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4rvuqd$gcj@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rvuqd$gcj@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 9 Jul 1996 16:41:49 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c
>anderson) wrote:
>
>>Mr. Giwer continues to demonstrate his devotion to rational, invective-
>>free argument.
>
>	That is the way it goes.
>
>	You have a bitch hiding behind female immunity and men like you trying
>to earn points to screw her should you be in her part of the world.
>
>	This is really very transparent.
>
>	We live in a sex neutral world.

    I don't know what world you live in, but most people I know are not
neutral to sex.  Sour grapes because you aren't getting any?


>	Sorry about that.
>
>	Grow up and learn what is going on.  

    Trolling, of course.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 11:10:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!news2.interlog.com!news.neca.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Discussion with Giwer begins
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:45:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4s3smj$fdj@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvs3f$ksu@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4s1721$p99@news.enter.net> <31e504e3.58973325@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e504e3.58973325@news.zilker.net>,
Mike Curtis  wrote:
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>  On 9 Jul 1996 12:12:34 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
>>  
>>>  >We should start at the beginning:  what precisely do you mean by "physical
>>>  >evidence"?  That is, can you either provide a definition, or provide
>>>  >an example of "phsyical evidence" for another historical event that we
>>>  >all agree took place (say, the Battle of Gettysburg)?
>>
>>>  	If you have a bad news feed complain. 
>>  
>>>  	I have stated this many times.  
>>
>
>This is his answer in a thread called "Discussion with Giwer begins?" 
>
>Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Boy are you guys suckers.
>
>
>>	You most certainly have not.  You have told us that you know what it 
>>is and theat everybody else should realize what you are talking about.
>>
>>	--YFE

    It is true that he has made his statement many times, but it still
does not answer the mail.  He was asked for a definition, but all he gave
were examples.  Not giving a clear definition enables him to make it up as
he goes.  Once he gives a definition, he sets a standard he can be held
to, or at least it can be seen as unreasonable.

    We went through the same thing with Greg Raven.  He did not want to
set a well-defined standard of proof so that he could continue to move the
goalposts - in effect, what he was trying to do was surreptitiously play
both defense attorney and judge. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 11:10:01 PDT 1996
Article: 49886 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 12 Jul 1996 12:52:04 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4s5vrk$1jg@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s4f9n$8c@news1.io.org> <4s50lm$g8d@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s50lm$g8d@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 12 Jul 1996 03:03:19 GMT, alec@gryn.org@   (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>>In <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>>	The revisionist method is to point out that there are not even faked
>>>pictures of gassing being presented.  No pictures at all.  NOTHING in
>>>the way of physical evidence.  
>
>>"There are no fakes, therefore it didn't happen".
>
>>This is logic?!?!
>
>	Obviously it is not but that is not what I said, so why beat a straw
>man?  

    Why should you be the only one allowed to do that?  And your writing
is significantly poorer than the writing you misread.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 14:02:27 PDT 1996
Article: 49899 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:09:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4s3qis$dpi@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Some holohugging idiot gave me the reverse of the "cider in your eye"
>challenge.  
>
>	Were I looking for suckers, I should have said "I can prove the fire
>bombing of Dresden to standards that do not exist for massive gassings."
>But I did not.
>
>	Rather first some fool challenged me to prove WW II occurred and I
>ignored the foolish challenge.   Next another (or the same) fool
>challenged me to prove the fire bombing of Dresden occurred.
>
>	First I changed the ground rules from proof to the evidence.  Proof is
>for mathematics, not for the human condition.
>
>	Then came the asshole holohuggers playing their ancient games.

    Here comes Matt Giwer, playing the ancient game of posting away from
the thread in which he is getting shellacked in the hope that I won't
notice.

    The thread is "AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT" and there is quite a
bit of unanswered mail piling up there for Mr. Giwer.  Why doesn't he go
answer it rather than huffing and puffing over here (and not showing any
evidence to back up his claims)?


>	First they claimed with transparent falsity that Dresden was solely
>based upon testimony as is their holocaust.

    Multiple falsehoods in one sentence, not bad.  I certainly never said
that, and Mr. Giwer has been shown physical evidence time and time again.
The issue is not whether it is physical evidence, but whether it is
_sufficient_ evidence.


>Next they claimed that one document of questionable origin was equal to
>thousands of documents and press releases regarding the raid.

    _Thousands_ of documents about that _one_ raid?  Making it up as he
goes.  And there he goes again, mentioning press releases when the subject
is physical evidence and its sufficiency.  No self-respecting scientist
would ever make that mistake. 


>	Finally they muddled down into mush of addressing nothing of any
>particular interest but still maintaining their garbage is equivalent to
>thousands of bureaucratic records documenting a never denied event.  
>
>	Holohuggers are very foolish.  

    The only fool I see here is Mr. Giwer, thinking he can do some spin
doctoring without my noticing.  Check out "AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS
GUILT" and see how well you think the status of that thread matches Mr.
Giwer's description of it. 

    And the really ironic thing is that within the same day he told Jamie
McCarthy not to change the thread name.  But Jamie left the References: 
line intact; Mr. Giwer's professed inability to follow the thread
indicates either a brain-dead newsreader or a brain-dead user of the
newsreader.

    Not only did Mr. Giwer talk about the thread with a different thread
name here, he removed the References:  line to guarantee it was
disconnected.  A sure sign that he's running scared, hoping to get in his
licks without my noticing.  I guess that's the best a 163 IQ type can do. 
And it's so feeble that he couldn't even get a job in the Clinton
administration.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 12 14:02:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49900 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 12 Jul 1996 15:52:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4s6ae4$9eb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net> <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:79532 alt.revisionism:49900 talk.politics.european-union:4830

In article <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>,
Stefan Schneider  wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net says...
>lotsaspam deleted
>>    Give it up.  Alec is right.  You are not intellectually capable of
>>dealing with what is presented to you.  If you had half the mind you
>>delude yourself into thinking you have, you would not need to lie and
>>deceive and evade the way you do.
>Learn a little about chemistry. Then retry. See Article (s.c.g) 80416 for 
>further information.
>NO regards

    I made no claims about chemistry whatsoever, so it is very difficult
to see what you think I need to learn about it.  I am merely pointing out
that the delousing chambers at Birkenau did not, even according to a
revisionist, have the extensive safety measure of the American gas
chambers.  And the rest of my observation was that Matt Giwer, the person
I was addressing cannot read well - something I have ample evidence for. 
Again, nothing to do with chemistry.  So I don't know what problem you
could possibly have with anything I wrote.

    If you wish to refer me to an article you will have to give me a
proper reference.  The article number 80416 is valid for your news server
only.  Proper reference to an article is by author, subject, date, and
message ID - yours, for example, is <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, not
98258 which also appeared at the top of my screen when I started reading
your article. 

    Please retry.

    Posted and emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sat Jul 13 11:00:55 PDT 1996
Article: 49950 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 11 Jul 1996 04:46:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4s2f0n$ogc@access4.digex.net>
References:  <4rfc3a$ie8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net


    One word with regard to the "suffocating cough:" remember that until
late in the war, Zyklon contained not only cyanide but a lachrymogen as a
warning indicator to let people know in the event of a leak - cyanide is
not as clearly noticeable.  The cough may have been caused by residual
lachrymogen, which to be effective would have to be detectable before the
cyanide developed lethal levels, and persist as long as the cyanide was in
the area.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Jul 13 11:00:56 PDT 1996
Article: 49973 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Back by popular request
Date: 12 Jul 1996 01:16:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4s4n3p$arq@access1.digex.net>
References: <4s1l9f$idi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Marty Kelley   wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>>                The testimony of Moshe Lundelthal

[Discussion of the last time Mr. Giwer posted his fabrication deleted]

>So...what WAS your purpose in re-posting this, Mr. Giwer? Most of us
>who've followed the group for any length of time recognize it for what it
>is.

    He judges everything by his own standards - and it seems he can
scarcely remember anything for more than a week.  I think he really
expects that everyone else forgot about it by now.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 13 13:27:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50042 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 12 Jul 1996 12:49:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <4s5vm5$1e0@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s200r$2ag@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E5281C.27A5@gryn.org> <4s466v$m9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s466v$m9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:13:16 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>>NO! NO! NO! Where are the actual films of the bombs falling? The fire
>>itself? The people burning alive?
>
>	Are you saying there were no bomb camera films?  No reconnaisance
>photos?  How strange that they would conduct a bomb raid without such
>standard practices.

    In other words you have _not_ seen those films and do not know what
was in them.

>Burning people may not have been filmed but with
>pictures of the fire storm and with burnt bodies found where the
>firestorm was, one can possibly rule out suicide.  
>
>>People don't "Glow Orange and Vanish", Matt - so it never happened?
>
>	But as you see, the physical evidence that exists around Dresden does
>not require a single eyewitness statement to reconstruct what happened.

    According to what you have presented so far, you are wrong.  I will
try to write this very slowly and simply.  See if you can clean your
glasses and follow the discussion this time.

    You have not disputed the fact that there is physical evidence of
cyanide use in the Kremas.  There are traces still detectable in the
walls.  There is a letter from Topf (signatures of both Prufer and Sander
plus enough stamps to send an elephant by airmail quite visible) about
cyanide detectors for the Kremas.  Physical evidence.

    You have not disputed the fact that there is physical evidence of dead
bodies at Auschwitz during the same time frame that there was cyanide in
use there.  Crematoria.  Ashes and bone chips - not as many documented
tons as you asked to see, but lots of 'em.

    Yet you _do_ dispute the existence of physical evidence for cyanide
gassing.  You do not need to explain why; I know.

    Now.  Pay attention.

    You have presented physical evidence for the bombing of Dresden.  I do
not dispute that.  I will even accept that the planes referred to in those
mission records did the bombing rather than turn back from cowardice with
an agreement to hush it up, with the Soviets really carrying out the
bombing.

    You have presented physical evidence that about the same time, there
was a major fire in Dresden.  I do not dispute that.

    However, London and Chicago tell us that one can have a major fire
without bombing.  So bombing was not a necessary condition for the Dresden
fire.

    And your thousands of mission records tell you that sortie after
sortie was flown without giving a whole new meaning to the phrase "toast
of the town."  So bombing is not a sufficient condition for the Dresden
fire.

    The bombing would almost certainly have knocked out the water system
and a lot of firefighting equipment and firefighters, making it impossible
to fight any fires that may have started in the town (from _any_ cause)
and leaving them to spread uncontrolled as they would not have under
ordinary circumstances.  But .... 

    Now, Mr. Scientist, do you finally realize what physical evidence you
have consistently failed to present?  Remember, post hoc ergo propter hoc
is a logical fallacy.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 12 Jul 1996 16:21:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4s6c4r$alr@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s2c0s$mu6@access4.digex.net> <4s2kea$q44@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s2kea$q44@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 11 Jul 1996 03:55:08 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:

[snip]

>>>	The revisionist method is to point out that there are not even faked
>>>pictures of gassing being presented.  No pictures at all.  NOTHING in
>>>the way of physical evidence.  
>
>>    No, the revisionist method is to reject all such pictures and evidence
>>as being faked or improperly/questionably captioned 
>
>	Only the latter and then not improperly but creatively captioned.  

    Your gross ignorance is not my fault.  Get off your lazy butt and into
a library.  See Walendy, Udo: "Forged War Crimes Malign the German
Nation."  He called the resistance photo of pit burning at Birkenau a
painting, apparently because of the atrocious printing in the book in
which he viewed it.  But Pressac has a much better printing of the same
photo.


>	We already have agreement that damning pictures were not permitted so
>there can be no such pictures.  

    What brilliant logic.  Drug dealing is not permitted so there can be
no drug dealers.  Quite pathetic.

    No, there are such pictures taken in violation of orders - but of
course a photograph cannot conclusively show the cause of death. 


>or not showing the
>>cause of death of the dead bodies in the picture or not proving that live
>>people were in the room at the same time as the cyanide whose traces still
>>linger in the walls.  Point to the cyanide traces, they don't show people
>>in the room.  Show pictures of dead people, they don't indicate that
>>cyanide was the cause of death.  Round and round and round we go....
>
>	But then we have agree that pictures of the "gassed dead" were
>prohibited so they do not exist.  

    If you believe that everyone always obeys orders you have a lot of
growing up to do.  Get serious.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50114 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 12 Jul 1996 16:26:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4s6cde$atu@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s4drj$8c@news1.io.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s4drj$8c@news1.io.org> alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) writes:
>In <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>	Some holohugging idiot gave me the reverse of the "cider in your eye"
>>challenge.  
>>
>Matt, you lost that one.  This is your way of trying to make a loss look like 
>a victory.
>
>Pity.
>
>>
>>	Rather first some fool challenged me to prove WW II occurred and I
>>ignored the foolish challenge.   Next another (or the same) fool
>>challenged me to prove the fire bombing of Dresden occurred.
>
>Why? If you wanted to show him up, why did you refuse to argue on his rules?

    MY rules?!  Cute, Alec.  You shouldn't tease Matt like that.  He
doesn't even realize that he was arguing on his _own_ rules.


>>	First they claimed with transparent falsity that Dresden was solely
>>based upon testimony as is their holocaust.  
>
>You have presented no physical evidence.

    I am confident that he has never seen the physical evidence he has
cited and is only _assuming_ it was there.  But even after accepting his
"gentleman's agreement" that what he claims does exist and he is
describing it accurately, there is one thing he needs to present to seal
the case.  And he has not presented it, nor do I think he can.  I can
afford to give away many points he has dragged his feet on.  He will still
fail to make his case. 


>You have made those rules the basis for evidence as to the Holocaust.
>
>Now live with them.

    I am even playing it much more straight with him than he has with me. 
I know where the goalposts are and will not move them, even if it does
look as if he is about to put the ball through the uprights.  I can afford
to relax the chain-of-custody rules and the secondary-sources rule as
well.  I know the one thing he needs to produce to back up his claim - no
game playing, this is fully serious - but am confident he cannot.  I
_will_ insist on proper documentation for it if he tries to assert that it
exists; I do not trust him not to make it up out of whole cloth if he
needs it to win an argument. 


>I await your proof.
>
>>
>>	Holohuggers are very foolish.  
>
>No, Matt. You've lost - AGAIN - and try to bluster out of it.
>
>I wish you'd stop doing that. It really makes you look stupid.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50118 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor flunkies learn some basics
Date: 14 Jul 1996 00:59:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4s9urd$64q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s2d6u$au3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <4s53ri$hhe@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>> Bullshit.  Can't go from ignorant to knowledgable over night.
>
>That's true, so thanks again for the compliment.
>
>> But, should you wish to maintain this claim, HOW did you create
>> a five pointed star?  
>
>Zapf Dingbats, capital H.

    Jamie, you shouldn't give Matt lessons for free.  Make him pay for it.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:17 PDT 1996
Article: 50131 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Supersedes: <4s6ae4$9eb@access5.digex.net>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 12 Jul 1996 16:05:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4s6b6q$9tf@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net> <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:79633 alt.revisionism:50131 talk.politics.european-union:4869

In article <4s5rg7$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>,
Stefan Schneider  wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net says...
>lotsaspam deleted
>>    Give it up.  Alec is right.  You are not intellectually capable of
>>dealing with what is presented to you.  If you had half the mind you
>>delude yourself into thinking you have, you would not need to lie and
>>deceive and evade the way you do.
>Learn a little about chemistry. Then retry. See Article (s.c.g) 80416 for 
>further information.
>NO regards

    I made no claims about chemistry whatsoever.  In another article by
this poster in this thread he criticizes Ole Kreiberg by name.  So I
suspect he was talking to Ole Kreiberg or perhaps Matt Giwer but
accidentally attached his reply to my post and only included my name.  (I
have sent him an email about this, I hope he will clarify.)

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is appropriate?
Date: 12 Jul 1996 18:51:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4s6kt9$i05@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ragsd$ink@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rt783$so4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4s1v21$vkq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31E50FDD.41BF@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31E50FDD.41BF@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>I once nuked Al Gentile by posting his own *PRIOR* posts back at him.
>Matt, I'm sorry to say, has reached the point where I can show the
>contradictions to his claims by simply quoting his own message back to
>him!

    Hey, been there, done that.  I've _twice_ posted the _three_
contradictory stories he's told about who did what in getting Rack Jite
booted from Volant Turnpike, references to DejaNews URLs and all.  Most
people, even some recognized netkooks, would at least be slowed up by that
kind of a kick, but on him it seems to have no effect.  I don't know if
Matt _can_ be nuked such that he notices it anymore - he may have turned
into a cockroach.  Pity. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50183 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 12 Jul 1996 17:54:54 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <4s6hje$fcr@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net> <0$ZvnOev10TF065yn@login.dknet.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:50183 talk.politics.european-union:4875 soc.culture.german:79651

In article <0$ZvnOev10TF065yn@login.dknet.dk>,
Ole Kreiberg  wrote:
>In article <4s2e32$oa3@access4.digex.net>, Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>
>>
>>    Then there is also your idiotic belief that you have seen all the
>>testimonies and your even more idiotic notion that you have accurately
>>understood and remembered them, which anyone here can see you have not and
>>can not.  Care to try "after a few minutes there was silence" again?  Now,
>>did the witness say the screaming went on for "tens of minutes" as you
>>earlier offered that testimony to support?
>
> I have never said anything about the screaming went on for "tens of 
>minutes". Try to stick to the truth.

    I know you didn't - I was responding to Matt Giwer, not you.  Go back
and look again. Right under my name in your own post you will see

>>In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,

You do not post from Netcom.  Matt Giwer posts from Netcom.  And it is the
truth that Matt Giwer offered the quote containing "after a few minutes
there was silence" to support his claim that there were stories where the
screaming went on for "tens of minutes."  I can even give you the DejaNews
URL to prove it. 


>>    Give it up.  Alec is right.  You are not intellectually capable of
>>dealing with what is presented to you.  
>
>But what about yourself? What makes you an expert in this field?

    I do not have to be an expert to refer to the work of experts.  I am
pointing out an example from the real world as admitted by a revisionist
which indicate that the extensive safety procedures were not used for the
delousing chambers, that at least they were far enough away from other
things that tall chimneys were not necessary.  The people who built them
were experts and they did not use the tall chimneys.


>>If you had half the mind you
>>delude yourself into thinking you have, you would not need to lie and
>>deceive and evade the way you do.
>>
>>-- 
>Your response to the revisionist challenge: If you cannot make it any other 
>way, try character assasination and mudslinging. 

    Ole, I do not do this.  Again, you misunderstood who I was talking to. 
I am not calling _you_ a liar, and I don't believe I ever have.  Matt
Giwer _is_ a liar and I can prove this to courtroom standards by comparing
his words in one post with his words in another post.  When he says, "I
did not say that" in the same week that I can prove he did say that, and
does this again and again, he is a liar. 

    He has cut words out of my posts to make it seem as if I said
something very different from what I said.  That is deceiving. 

    He fails to answer important points when he is losing an argument, and
often tries to change the subject.  That is evading.

    If you require proof for all this I can and will give it.  I would
_never_ publicly accuse someone of lying unless I could prove it in court. 
You just misunderstood who I was talking to.  I will publicly acknowledge
that I cannot recall ever suspecting _you_ of writing anything that you
knew or suspected was false. 

    Just please try to read the attributions more carefully in the future,
OK?

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 07:45:19 PDT 1996
Article: 50186 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: 14 Jul 1996 08:38:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4sapns$c0s@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s2fqq$agu@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s3i74$jk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4s7llo$m0v@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s7llo$m0v@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	It is quite difficult to conceive of people who would call themselves
>researchers who would not call for collaboration by other researchers in
>fields that are not their specialty.  Aercheologists and anthropologists
>and even historians invite in geologists and radiologic dating and other
>specialists all the time.  
>
>	On the presumption I have missed it, I would be interested in which
>historian(s) has (have) invited in even one cyanide gas chamber
>specialist into a review of the mass gassing claims.  Do you have a name
>and where on Nizkor I can find the paper?  
>
>	Lets make it easier as those folks are rather rare.

    Indeed, there is just Fred Leuchter, who _calls_ himself one, but who
has never actually designed one.


>How about experts
>on crematoria?  Which collaborative papers can you name that support the
>crematoria rates that had to have existed?  Can you even name a paper by
>an historian that even references a paper by a crematorium designer?
>(And post it of course, you have so many references no one else,
>including Nizkor, does not seem to have.)  

    There are references to the Topf patent filed in the '50s; it has been
mentioned in posts here.  You have not seen them?  Or simply did not
remember what you read?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 14 13:43:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50242 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 14 Jul 1996 15:14:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4sbgvg$n8k@access5.digex.net>
References: <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sb2nq$kun@news.enter.net> <31e90d69.9088329@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e90d69.9088329@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>	I wonder how many frivolous lawsuits this YFE idiot has filed in
>his goofy career?


    I wonder how many childish and mindless insults (like this one) this
Tom Moran idiot has posted in this newsgroup in his goofy career? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:50 PDT 1996
Article: 50307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: total lack of perspective exemplified
Date: 14 Jul 1996 08:51:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <4saqgj$c8j@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rq9n8$9f3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s1hdo$j4d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <10JUL199622321239@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4s2m9u$lir@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s2m9u$lir@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 10 Jul 1996 22:32 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s1hdo$j4d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>On 10 Jul 1996 06:42 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>>>Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>    I don't think there is any data available to support this assertion of
>>>>    yours, and your assertion runs counter to what is intuitive to me.
>>> 
>>>>    Young people in general have little knowledge of historical events 50
>>>>    years ago.  If you ask them who was president 50 years ago, I suspect
>>>>    less than 20% of the college students in the country would get it
>>>>    correct.  (Marty or someone, could you take a small poll in your class
>>>>    and see what happens?)
>>> 
>>>>    Surely those youths who happened to see Schindler's List have a visual
>>>>    image of the Holocaust, but that is just a snapshot.  I'd be very
>>>>    surprised if you could show me that more than 5% of today's college
>>>>    students could name more than one concentration camp, or could
>>>>    breakdown death totals into Jewish and non-Jewish correctly, or could
>>>>    breakdown camp and non-camp deaths correctly.  Whatever picture exists,
>>>>    I suggest, is a very shallow picture.
>>> 
>>>	At a time when 5% of college students would be hard pressed to name the
>>>major countries involved in WW II, this nerfbrain thinks that a bit of
>>>historical trivia like his holocaust is of some particular significance.
>
>>    Go away, troll.
>
>>    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
>>    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
>>    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
>>    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
>>    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>>    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
>>    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
>>    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
>>    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
>>    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>

[Giwer spam deleted]

    Of course Mr. Giwer launched the personal attack in this case, calling
Danny Mittleman a "nerfbrain" and completely mischaracterizing what he had
written.

    When Danny Mittleman responded to this personal attack by pointing out
that it was mere trollery, Mr. Giwer pretended _he_ was the one who had
been personally attacked, and launched his spam.

    He has made some serious comments in this thread and they have been
responded to seriously.  But here he reverted to namecalling and
mischaracterization of remarks, and was treated with all the respect he
deserved for it (i.e., none). 

    I have told him many times that if he wants people to stop referring
to him as a lying troll all he needs to do is stop lying and stop
trolling.  It is that simple.  Apparently Mr. Giwer is a very slow
learner. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:50 PDT 1996
Article: 50308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 14 Jul 1996 08:57:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4saqrp$cbg@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rk1ov$74m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Daniel Keren  wrote:
>
>brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) writes:
>
>[A whole lot of empty rhetoric deleted]

[and a little more snipped by me]


># There are no documents, no orders, no planning, no blueprints
>
>There you go. This is an outright lie; there are orders, there
>are blueprints, there are documents. Some are routinely
>posted here.
>
[...]
>
>[Regarding testimonies of SS-men about gassings]
>
># Most are "coerced" confessions, as in "sign this or we'll pull 
># some more of your fingernails out.  Or we'll turn your wife and 
># children over to the Russians."
>
>Another outright lie. There is no proof that *one* such testimony
>was obtained by such means. Moreover, a great many such testimonies
>were given to German courts, and I haven't yet seen one "revisionist"
>who claimed the Germans tortured these German SS-men into confessing.
>
>It seems you're a pathological liar; if not, why are you lying
>so much? Please explain.

    Perhaps he has just swallowed and regurgitated the lies of others?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:51 PDT 1996
Article: 50310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 14 Jul 1996 22:25:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4sca5t$6kg@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s2kea$q44@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4s6c4r$alr@access5.digex.net> <4s6uel$dtf@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s6uel$dtf@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 12 Jul 1996 16:21:47 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s2kea$q44@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 11 Jul 1996 03:55:08 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4s20el$sr2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>>>	The revisionist method is to point out that there are not even faked
>>>>>pictures of gassing being presented.  No pictures at all.  NOTHING in
>>>>>the way of physical evidence.  
>>>
>>>>    No, the revisionist method is to reject all such pictures and evidence
>>>>as being faked or improperly/questionably captioned 
>>>
>>>	Only the latter and then not improperly but creatively captioned.  
>
>>    Your gross ignorance is not my fault.  Get off your lazy butt and into
>>a library.  See Walendy, Udo: "Forged War Crimes Malign the German
>>Nation."  He called the resistance photo of pit burning at Birkenau a
>>painting, apparently because of the atrocious printing in the book in
>>which he viewed it.  But Pressac has a much better printing of the same
>>photo.
>
>	I speak for myself.  If you want him to explain, get him to join the
>conference.  

    When you write "The revisionist method is..." then you are speaking
for more than yourself.


>	Why is it you think I should be responsible for explaining what others
>have written?  

    When you wrote "The revisionist method is ...." you already took on
that responsibility.  Had you not wanted it, you should have written, "My
method is ...." 

    Either you lied when you described the revisionist method or you lied
when you said you speak for yourself.  Take your pick.


>>>	We already have agreement that damning pictures were not permitted so
>>>there can be no such pictures.  
>
>>    What brilliant logic.  Drug dealing is not permitted so there can be
>>no drug dealers.  Quite pathetic.
>
>>    No, there are such pictures taken in violation of orders - but of
>>course a photograph cannot conclusively show the cause of death. 
>
>Then you are saying there was no way to connect the pictures that exist
>with anything in the captions.  One often does have ask the supposed
>origin of these pictures.  If they are official pictures, numbered and
>cataloged then there is something to say for them.

    Your faith in the veracity of governments is touching.

    But why does that not apply to Nazi archives?  If you are not
rejecting documents as possibly forged due to passing through Soviet
hands, then there are far more than one or two documents.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:52 PDT 1996
Article: 50338 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor flunkies learn some basics
Date: 14 Jul 1996 00:56:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4s9ume$627@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s2d6u$au3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s2d6u$au3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	When you log on to Nizkor next time, you will note they have mastered
>the  statement and have stolen an animated GIF from
>some place.  
>
>	It is all quite impressive what they have mastered in a year.  

    Fifty-one years and Matt Giwer has not mastered the English language. 
Somehow he once read "after a few minutes there was silence" as "the
screaming went on for tens of minutes."
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 07:12:53 PDT 1996
Article: 50361 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 14 Jul 1996 00:34:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <4s9tbo$5if@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4s466v$m9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4s5vm5$1e0@access5.digex.net> <4s6s6f$4ej@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s6s6f$4ej@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 12 Jul 1996 12:49:09 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:

    Let's cut to the chase and see if the man with 163 alleged IQ points
(of which I have seen neither physical nor documentary evidence) can
finally figure out what physical evidence he has consistently failed to
present.


>>>	But as you see, the physical evidence that exists around Dresden does
>>>not require a single eyewitness statement to reconstruct what happened.
>
>>    According to what you have presented so far, you are wrong.  I will
>>try to write this very slowly and simply.  See if you can clean your
>>glasses and follow the discussion this time.
>
>>    You have not disputed the fact that there is physical evidence of
>>cyanide use in the Kremas.  There are traces still detectable in the
>>walls.  There is a letter from Topf (signatures of both Prufer and Sander
>>plus enough stamps to send an elephant by airmail quite visible) about
>>cyanide detectors for the Kremas.  Physical evidence.
>
>>    You have not disputed the fact that there is physical evidence of dead
>>bodies at Auschwitz during the same time frame that there was cyanide in
>>use there.  Crematoria.  Ashes and bone chips - not as many documented
>>tons as you asked to see, but lots of 'em.
>
>>    Yet you _do_ dispute the existence of physical evidence for cyanide
>>gassing.  You do not need to explain why; I know.
>
>As least someone has gotten it essentially correct.  But you do not know
>why or you would spell out why.

    This is a terminally stupid statement which can and will be thrown
back in your face below.


>	Dead bodies are from disease.  Cyanide is for fumigation.

    Those convicts in San Quentin are just being fumigated.



>And we have also been over the inabilty of anyone to establish an excess
>number of people going in that are unaccounted for in known records.  

    That is not true.   There are railroad records going in.  There are
official death records.  There are registration records.  There are
survivors.  The numbers don't add.



>>    Now.  Pay attention.
>
>>    You have presented physical evidence for the bombing of Dresden.  I do
>>not dispute that.  I will even accept that the planes referred to in those
>>mission records did the bombing rather than turn back from cowardice with
>>an agreement to hush it up, with the Soviets really carrying out the
>>bombing.
>
>>    You have presented physical evidence that about the same time, there
>>was a major fire in Dresden.  I do not dispute that.
>
>>    However, London and Chicago tell us that one can have a major fire
>>without bombing.  So bombing was not a necessary condition for the Dresden
>>fire.
>


>It was, however, coincident with the bombing

    And Zyklon use was coincident with large numbers of deaths and
unbalanced and unexplained personnel movement into but apparently not out
of Auschwitz.  Your point? 


>who identified purpose

    In post-raid press releases which, as I have said, may have been
designed after the fact to take advangage of a coincidence.  Not physical
evidence, sorry. 

    What physical evidence have you consistently failed to present?


>was to start a fire storm and a firestorm is what occurred.

    It was?  Why, yes, I remember reading many hysterical supposed
eyewitness acccounts of this alleged firestorm.  Stone ornamental trees
catching fire and all that.

    What physical evidence have you consistently failed to present?



>The London and
>Chicago fires were wind driven and not firestorms.  A firestorm
>establishes its own air circulation patterns that drive the fire a bit
>like what happens in a hurricane.  

    Yes, I remember reading many hysterical supposed eyewitness accounts
of this alleged air circulation pattern - high vortex winds, roaring, all
that.  Along with the bodies glowing orange and melting.

    What physical evidence have you consistently failed to present?


>>    And your thousands of mission records tell you that sortie after
>>sortie was flown without giving a whole new meaning to the phrase "toast
>>of the town."  So bombing is not a sufficient condition for the Dresden
>>fire.
>
>>    The bombing would almost certainly have knocked out the water system
>>and a lot of firefighting equipment and firefighters, making it impossible
>>to fight any fires that may have started in the town (from _any_ cause)
>>and leaving them to spread uncontrolled as they would not have under
>>ordinary circumstances.  But .... 
>
>	But you describe a type of fire that did not occur.  

    I do?  How do you know?  What physical evidence have you consistently
failed to present?



>>    Now, Mr. Scientist, do you finally realize what physical evidence you
>>have consistently failed to present?  Remember, post hoc ergo propter hoc
>>is a logical fallacy.
>
>	I hope you now realize just what is wrong with the hypothesis you have
>constructed.  

    I hope you now realize what physical evidence you have consistently
failed to present.

    And keeping a promise above: it is clear you do not have this physical
evidence or else you would have spelled it out.


    Matt is _so_ cute when he's being stubborn, isn't he?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 13:33:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4sbjqq$os2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>   <4s76p6$90u@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s76p6$90u@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>,
Richard J. Green  wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>> the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>
>What is the equilibrium vapor pressure of HCN at say 0 C?   What is the
>lethal concentration of HCN?
>
>
>T (C)		Torr
>
>-20		100
>0		260
>10		410
>20		610
>30		900
>
>From DuPont's "Hydrogen Cyanide: Uses, Storage, and Handling"
>
>260 Torr = 340,000 ppm.   300 ppm is rapidly fatal.
>
>So the vapor pressure of the absorbed liquid is well above lethal
>concentrations even at very cold temperature.  As far as the _rate_ of
>evaporation goes, see Peters.


    And that is without even discussing the silly notion that a colder
body must be in direct contact with a warmer body in order to be warmed by
it.

    Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense?  Hmn ....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 13:33:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50433 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: total lack of perspective exemplified
Date: 15 Jul 1996 14:25:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4se2e4$d7q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rq9n8$9f3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s2m9u$lir@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4saqgj$c8j@access5.digex.net> <4scoa8$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scoa8$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 08:51:31 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:

[snip again]

>>[Giwer spam deleted]
>
>	Would you prefer this?
>
>========
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Sado-masochistic fantasies
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:39:19 GMT
>
>
>3/20/88: 
>     An article in the Baltimore Sun calls attention to the rising
>incidence of impostors who tell
>     grisly stories of wartime derring-do in Vietnam, but who never
>served there, let alone saw
>     combat. Psychologists and counselors working with Vietnam veterans
>have identified one
>     telltale sign of these liars; a propensity to claim involvement in
>some atrocity, such as
>     massacring women and children.

[...]

    Actually, I'm glad you posted this one; it saves me the trouble of
looking it up on DejaNews.  Its relevance to the title of this thread and
your precious Dresdenhugger myth should be obvious.  Need I remind you
that you have yet to answer the mail in the thread "An admission of
perfidious guilt" regarding the physical evidence you have consistently
failed to present?

    Whether you have the honesty to admit that you have never seen this
physical evidence is of course entirely up to you.  Would you like a towel
to wipe the cider from your eye?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 19:32:03 PDT 1996
Article: 50511 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 15 Jul 1996 09:42:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4sdhso$li8@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org> <4s726g$cqj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s726g$cqj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  writes:
>
>>
>>Where is there proof that it was Dresden? Where is there proof of
>>firebombing?
>>
>>Your rules - back at you!
>>
>>
>
>Sorry, this just doesn't work.  Where are the three million who were
>gassed?  Completely disappeared.  Not so Dresden.  Photographs and foreign
>journalists visited the scene, the destruction, and the corpses within
>days.  Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka.  Thousands of individuals, and even
>national governments whose archives were not compromised by their enemies
>admitted to the bombing of Dresden.  Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka.  Less
>than 200 people claim to be eyewitnesses to the gassings that consumed 3
>million, including many on trial for their lives and who denied personal
>responsibility or involvement.  Not so Dresden.  And so forth.

    You aren't following the discussion very well.  The dispute is not
really about whether Dresden was bombed, no more than anyone disputes
whether Zyklon was used in the camps, although the reductio argument can
be used on Dresden documents - they are _not_ immune to forgery.  The
dispute is not about whether there was a major fire and loss of life, no
more than anyone disputes that a large number of people - well over
100,000 even by SS records of registered prisoner deaths undisputed by
revisionists - died at Auschwitz.

    The completely serious question I am asking is whether the bombing and
the massive fire can be linked to each other by physical evidence alone
(as Mr. Giwer has asserted he can do) rather than coincidence, eyewitness
testimony, and after-the-fact press releases.  I can honestly say that the
only basis I have heard for the firestorm is eyewitness testimony
describing it.  But by Mr. Giwer's method we must disregard the people who
reported stone trees burning and people glowing orange and melting, and
only go by physical evidence. 

    As with Mr. Giwer's thread "well-designed mass gassing chambers," it
is very hard to believe that they could deliberately start a large-scale
firestorm the first time they tried, since it had never been done before. 
Add in the many bombing raids which did _not_ create crispy cities, and on
the physical evidence alone, we must conclude that the fire was a number
of ordinary fires allowed to spread unchecked due to the destruction of
firefighting capability, blown out of proportion by hysterical
eyewitnesses.

    Surely you must agree that we are obliged throw out all those
eyewitness testimonies of vortex winds (and burning stone trees, and
people glowing orange and melting), which is all I have seen to establish
the firestorm.  Furthermore, I have never seen a forensic investigation
report that conclusively confirms that the ignition points of the Dresden
fires coincided with the bomb impact points.  I seriously doubt any such
was done - just as with the piles of bodies at the concentration camps,
where "everybody knew" gas did it, "everybody knew"  the bombs started the
fires which destroyed Dresden.  As far as I know, we only have worthless
eyewitness testimony and assumption based on coincidence to link the bombs
to the fires, and by Mr.  Giwer's rules we may only go by physical
evidence.  But post hoc ergo propter hoc is a logical fallacy. 

    Yet neither you nor Mr. Giwer is skeptical of the Dresden myth, which
as far as I can see cannot be supported by physical evidence alone.  He
has already appealed to press releases (!).  From this it is clear that he
cannot make his case on the physical evidence despite the fact that
there has never been a claim of attempt to destroy the physical evidence
to cover up the crime.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 19:32:04 PDT 1996
Article: 50515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 15 Jul 1996 15:03:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4se4mu$eso@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>  <4sbkb4$p4q@access5.digex.net> <4sco4o$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sco4o$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 16:12:20 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>Holger Skok  wrote:

[...]

>>>Read my keys: TIME TO KILL INSECTS
>>>
>>>This figure therefore, has got very little to do with the time it takes
>>>the HCN to evaporate. It has much more to do with the metabolic rate 
>>>of the insects and their susceptibility to cyanide poisoning. 
>
>>    And to seep into the nooks and crannies of a house, into bedding, etc. 
>>In a specially-designed delousing chamber with heaters and powered
>>circulation, far less time was required.
>
>	It is interesting that neither heaters nor powered circulation are
>apparent in the "gas chambers" when the utility of these features was
>very well known.  

    Perhaps you'd like to point out the air circulation system which
operates in the San Quentin gas chamber during the gassing operation (as
opposed to the gas extraction phase)?  I thought not.

    With regard to heating, the relevant question is the difference in
time, not whether it would work at all.  But of course you pretend not to
see that.


>	But, gee, self styled "experts" have found such obvious gas chamber
>design features on the LK that "even they" can see them.  Yet they lack
>these obvious ones.

    The San Quentin gas chamber is obviously a hoax.


>	What is missing is much more interesting than what exists, as always.  

    Has anyone found physical evidence of Mr. Giwer's brain, or honesty?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 20:08:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50526 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: 15 Jul 1996 12:02:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4sdq24$t8s@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sa62t$gro@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4sb3n7$kun@news.enter.net> <4scqtd$567@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scqtd$567@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 15:28:39 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>  >	The netcom abuse group finally caught up with you?  Say hello to 
>>>  >Ishmael Estrada.
>>>  
>>>  	Not in the least, fool.  There has been exactly one claim filed with
>>>  that addr that copied me and it was started by another person who
>>>  cancelled the message after it was responded to.  That left it looking
>>>  like I was the originator.  
>
>>	That is a lie and you know it.  Just ask Ismael Estrada.
>
>	You have him, her or it logon to this NG and talk about it.  Your
>assertions ain't shit.  

    The latter sentence is one of Mr. Giwer's relatively rare true
statements.  On the other hand, it is quite clear to all that Mr. Giwer's
assertions _are_. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 21:10:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50528 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: 15 Jul 1996 12:10:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4sdqgo$e9@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s7opu$nce@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <13JUL199608192997@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sa1as$e9d@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sa1as$e9d@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 13 Jul 1996 08:19 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s7opu$nce@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>	Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>>>bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>>>fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>>>that is about it) content.
>>> 
>>>	Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.  
>
>>    What a great place ofor us to house all of our evidence of Giwer's
>>    trolling, spamming, lying, and incompetence!  We will quickly find out
>>    to what extent this ISP really supports free speech!
>
>	It looks like I can offer a gig for $500 a month but nothing a firm 
>       yet.

    I guess Matt isn't committed to _free_ speech after all.


>	I will be laughing all the way to the bank.  
>
>	Interested?  

    Well, if that is the rate for all, whether you agree with them or not,
then I doubt you will get many customers.  However, if you are engaging in
discriminatory pricing, then of course all one need do to show how stupid
you Dresdenhuggers are is to come in under an alias or via an agent.  Then
there will be a juicy breach of contract suit should you try to take down
the pages or change the terms retroactively. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 21:10:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50542 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 15 Jul 1996 17:46:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <4see6r$mh7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvit2$hcv@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4s184u$p99@news.enter.net> <4s2ips$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s2ips$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 10 Jul 1996 21:42:54 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>>>  
>>>  	Minor question, which of the signers of the DOI was Jewish?  
>
>>	None.  There were no Jewish delegates to the Constitutional 
>>Convention so none could sign it.  There were, however, a number of Jews who 
>>signed the Non-importation Agreements.
>
>	Very good, no contribution there.

    Sounds like a troll.  Looks like a troll.  Smells like a troll.
(Based on the smell I do not plan to touch or taste it.)


>>>  	Another minor question, what are the names of the "jews" who were
>>>  against the revolution and what did they do?  
>

>> There were a number of Jewish Loyalists.  Among the most notable were
>>Isaac Touro of Newport and Abraham Wagg of New York who, though disabled
>>and in his 50's served in a tory regiment.  The most prominent Jewish
>>loyalist family was the Franks family in New York.  David Franks of New
>>York served as commisary of British prisoners until 1778.  His son
>>served as an officer in a British regiment and his sister was the wife
>>of Oliver DeLancey. (Oddly enough another member of the family -- also
>>named David Franks served on Washington's personal staff).  I could find
>>no others who fought for the crown. There were a few others of
>>questionable loyality to independence, but it was fairly rare.  In
>>contrast there were 283 Jews who served in American units. 


>    Very good also.  There was indeed no particular Jewish contribution
>any more than there was a red haired people contribution.

    This of course was not the issue, but then Mr. Giwer does seem to have
a problem keeping on track.


>>>  	Excuse me but that second question must have been too hard a 
>>question.
>>>  Would you like to try to rephrase it and answer in your own clever way?
>

>> Now would you like to point out its relevanace.  The fact is that a
>>great majority of the 2500 or so Jews in America supported the
>>Revolution.  In my area there were three adult Jewish males.  Two served
>>in the Continental line, the third served in a volunteer capacity
>>managing a hospital in Bethlehem.  The fact is that L'il Tommy did not
>>know or care about this.  What he wanted to do was lie about Jews.  This
>>he did. 


>	Quite impressive but not outstanding nor of more than statistical
>interest.

    Some people keep track of batting averages and ERAs; some people keep
track of lies per post.  Mr. Giwer and Tom Moran are in close contention
for the crown this season. 


>	Nothing beyond normal demographic distribution.

    Well, let's see.  283 out of 2500 is 11% of the _total_ population
(not able-bodied male population).  In order to make the assertion above
it would be necessary to show that 11% of the non-Jewish total population
fought for independence.  But Mr. Giwer has never displayed an
understanding of statistics, or of supporting assertions with evidence,
that I have been able to see.

    I keep telling him what he has to do to get people to stop calling him
a lying troll.  But does he listen?  Obviously not.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 22:32:46 PDT 1996
Article: 50564 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in the manner of suiing
Date: 15 Jul 1996 16:11:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4se8l4$hfd@access5.digex.net>
References: <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	
>
>	Also of interest is that there are six or seven contributors listed on
>the Nizkor site.  Two of them are "co-webmasters" but certainly it is
>possible they are contributing defamatory material making the RICO
>conspiracy even wider and more people to be named.

    Matt Giwer has contributed megabytes of defamatory material.  Perhaps
he should retain legal counsel.


>	They should all be named.  

    My parents did that years ago.  Mr. Giwer should pay attention.


>	The joint and several liability under RICO for treble damages should be
>of interest to most any "contributor."

    At most I am responsible for bass damages.  If Mr. Giwer is having
problems with his treble he is out of luck.


>Of course if they can prove they did not contribute to the defamation ...

    Any defamation posted by Matt Giwer in response to my postings is
entirely Matt Giwer's responsibility.


>	But then, they were only following orders.
>
>	But then, the only reason I am leaving Nizkor on line is to accumulate
>evidence.  

    I think if he thought matters through, he would find at least one more
reason, but whatever trips his trigger.  I can think of several reasons
for allowing Mr. Giwer to continue to post.  As evidenced by his recent
series of extremely silly posts about lawsuits, however, serious debate on
Holocaust revisionism is clearly not among them. 

    I have told him what he needs to do to stop being called a lying
troll, but he just doesn't listen.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 15 23:48:08 PDT 1996
Article: 50567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Any day now"?
Date: 15 Jul 1996 19:27:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4sek4h$qs4@access5.digex.net>
References: <31e6497a.1895296@news.pacificnet.net>  <31e90b3e.8533257@news.pacificnet.net> <4scq5r$k49@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scq5r$k49@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	They are a bunch of amateurs involved in libel

    Are you referring to your own, preserved for all to see on Nizkor?  I
suppose it would not be your greatest abuse of language to call the object
of libel "involved" in it.


>and as a group have
>organized to the point they are liable under the RICO statutes.  Treble
>punative damages there as I recall.  Against each individual as I
>recall.

    I suppose you would have to find some activity actionable under the
RICO statutes to find out if this is true.  Please do not hesitate to file
your suit if and when you find something you believe fits the bill.  Until
then, do you suppose you could stop wasting bandwidth with these extremely
silly trolls and juvenile pseudothreats and get back on track with the
purpose of the newsgroup?

    As I recall you have some unanswered mail regarding Dresden in the
thread, "An admission of perfidious guilt." Perhaps you would like to
rejoin the discussion of the demolition of the Dresdenhugger myth, an act
of real historical revisionism?  Nobody appears to be able to present
physical evidence for that firestorm, only hysterical eyewitness accounts. 

    Any day now, Matt.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 02:18:48 PDT 1996
Article: 50588 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 15 Jul 1996 14:47:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4se3o3$e5k@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s7m5o$erk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4sbjl6$oov@access5.digex.net> <4scn8r$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scn8r$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 16:00:38 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s7m5o$erk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:45:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>>If the stuff only released 10% in 5 minutes, it would be enough to do
>>>>the job - therefore it was sufficiently efficient, since the cost of
>>>>transport, etcetera, made it cheaper than tanks of gas.
>>>
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>
>>>>Now - want to try again?
>>>
>>>	Try again?  You have supported my position admirably, more than I could
>>>have imagined or expected.  It is exactly what I have been saying.
>>>Thank you.
>
>>    You now admit that the Zyklon could have outgassed fast enough to do
>>the job, even in cold weather.  Thank you.  If you have been saying this
>>all along, the paupacy of your English skills has certainly prevented
>>anyone seeing it until now. 
>
>	You are apparently suffering from a reading comprehension problem.  

    How would you know, Mr. "after a few minutes there was silence = the
screaming went on for tens of minutes?"


>	Outgassing is not linear.  In the second 5 minutes another 10% of the
>remaining 90% is released.  It is not linear such that it is all gone in
>50 minutes.

    I never said otherwise.  But you know that.


>	You should know basic things like that.  It is unclear why you do not
>without blaming the public education system.  

    I do know things like that.  It is unclear why you do not know how to
read.

    There have been claims that the Zyklon will not produce enough gas
fast enough to kill people in the reported time, and claims that the
Zyklon would remain too dangerous for too long a period to allow the
reported times.  There are separate arguments offered in rebuttal for each
claim.  When you develop the reading and critical thinking skills
necessary to recognize which claim is under discussion, and what rebuttal
is being made, do please be so good as to give some physical evidence of
it. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 02:18:49 PDT 1996
Article: 50596 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay being sued
Date: 15 Jul 1996 14:37:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4se35b$dpk@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sa7a6$et8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4sb23j$kun@news.enter.net> <4scvka$gjq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scvka$gjq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 15:01:07 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>  	This is an interesting discovery, that he is being sued along with his
>>>  Canadian and US donation acceptors and the two co-webmasters.  

    You have discovered this how?  The email from Ms. Thompson?  Since
when did email become a legal means of process service?  Your ignorance
shows through once again.

    The legal service of process has yet to arrive, according to Ken
McVay.  Somehow I have a hunch he will be waiting a long time.  Call it a
psychic prediction.


>>>  	After all, what is defamation of character all about?  
>
>>	Why ask?  I'm sure the lawyer you consulted told you that when he 
>>threw you out of his office.
>
>>	--YFE
>
>	If there was ever any message that confirmed my suspicion that you are
>willing to lie about the law to promote Israelites this was it.  Not to
>say there were not many previous messages that did so but this is the
>defining lie.  
>
>	There is no way this can comfort the RICO liable contributors to 
>McVay's actionable site.  It is clearly racketeering under US law.  
>
>	But you know that.

    I tried tennis once or twice, ping-pong as a child.  That is the
extent of my racketeering activity.  If you think it gives you grounds for
a suit, be my guest.

    Would you like to stop lying and stop trolling and answer the mail
about Dresden in the thread "An admission of perfidious guilt?"  It is
clear to all that you cannot but it would be refreshing to see you have
the honesty to admit it.  It would also help get the newsgroup back on
track.  You do want to keep on track, don't you?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 08:46:47 PDT 1996
Article: 50634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 15 Jul 1996 14:51:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4se3vp$ed7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s76p6$90u@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4sbjqq$os2@access5.digex.net> <4scnhh$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scnhh$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>

[snip]

>>    Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense?  Hmn ....
>
>	What was there to correct.  It is not Zyklon B.  It has no direct
>relationship to the material in the carrier unless the carrier has NO
>effect upon evaporation.  

    Once again your eagle eye and astounding reading comprehension display
themselves.  Let me cut it down to something small enough for your
attention span to deal with.  This is the silly notion which needs
correction:

>>>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>
>>>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>>> the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
>>>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.

    Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 12:49:46 PDT 1996
Article: 50746 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 16 Jul 1996 11:30:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4sgcik$sgn@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4scnhh$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4se3vp$ed7@access5.digex.net> <4sfmms$21p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sfmms$21p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 15 Jul 1996 14:51:37 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4scnhh$h4p@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 14 Jul 1996 16:03:38 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>>    Did anyone see Matt Giwer correcting this nonsense?  Hmn ....
>>>
>>>	What was there to correct.  It is not Zyklon B.  It has no direct
>>>relationship to the material in the carrier unless the carrier has NO
>>>effect upon evaporation.  
>
>>    Once again your eagle eye and astounding reading comprehension display
>>themselves.  Let me cut it down to something small enough for your
>>attention span to deal with.  This is the silly notion which needs
>>correction:
>
>>>>>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>>>>> the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
>>>>>> enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>>>>> on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>
>>    Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?
>
>	Are you saying that the wire mesh induction columns have gone away?  

    They were present only in Kremas II and III.  As I said, you have
never figured out which buildings had which names and which features
because you neither understand nor remember what you read.  How can you
possibly be qualified to participate in the discussion if you cannot get
this right after months of reading in both this newsgroup and on Nizkor?


>	Which particular conflicting story are you supporting?  

    Rather the question here is whether you accept Mr. Kreiberg's
ridiculous idea that something must be in direct physical contact with a
human body in order to be warmed by that body's heat. 

    I thought you had a degree in physics.  You should know the answer to
this.  Yet you do not correct your fellow revisionist when he makes a
gross scientific error that a bright English major should be able to spot. 
The conclusion that you are a fraud is a very attractive one.


>You folks jump around so much it is very difficult to keep track of what
>you are addressing.  

    Do not blame me for your early-onset Alzheimer's.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 13:26:59 PDT 1996
Article: 50754 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 14 Jul 1996 16:12:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4sbkb4$p4q@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s5qon$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Holger Skok  wrote:
>In article <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>... 
>>    Hydrocyanic acid vapors are not released immediately after the cans
>>    are opened. The evaporation of Zyklon B requires as many as 32 hours
>>    or as few as six hours, depending on whether the ambient temperature
>>    ranges from five to 30 degrees Celsius. The evaporation rate is not
>>    exactly proportional to time.
>
>And this is obviously complete bunk. The manual Lueftl cites here to
>get his 32 hour figure is one concerned with fumigation. The manual
>clearly states that the time it takes for the HCN to reach the desired
>effect - i.e. kill all insects in the treated house - can be up to 32 hours
>at low temperatures. 
>
>Read my keys: TIME TO KILL INSECTS
>
>This figure therefore, has got very little to do with the time it takes
>the HCN to evaporate. It has much more to do with the metabolic rate 
>of the insects and their susceptibility to cyanide poisoning. 

    And to seep into the nooks and crannies of a house, into bedding, etc. 
In a specially-designed delousing chamber with heaters and powered
circulation, far less time was required.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 14:01:35 PDT 1996
Article: 50763 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hub*rs and antisemitism
Date: 16 Jul 1996 11:11:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4sgbf6$rnc@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sb3m4$i8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4sck1l$kc0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sck1l$kc0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>,
A Huber  wrote:
>You've made the mis-assumption that following j*daism makes one religious.
> and therefore not interested in Communism. By no stretch of the 
>imagination is j*daism a "religion", unless we are to use it in the same 
>context in which the Very Reverend Louis Farrakhan used it, eg, "gutter 
>religion."
>
>If you have ever read from the Talm*d, you would understand.

    I have read from the Talmud.  It's just amazing what you find when you
look at everything in context.  It's a shame the rabbis organized the
criminal penalty discussions in a strange way - rather than organizing by
act, it is organized by penalty.  Tractate Sanhedrin deals with death
penalty law, while Makkoth deals with offenses punishable by whipping.
Antisemites like Hub*er quote selectively from Sanhedrin to make it seem
as if certain acts are excused, when one finds that over in Makkoth there
are no exceptions to punishment.  (The rules on applying the death penalty
were quite stringent; any doubt whatsoever as to full satisfaction of
every legal requirement was cause to reduce the penalty to whipping.) 


>Which gives me an idea!!!!
>
>We had so much fun with the Khazar series, we'll do the next series on 
>"Quotes from the Talm*d".

    Oh, goody.  I'll dust off my file of "what the liars left out of their
quotes, and how they mistranslated." 


>People can see for themselves what trash, then, the j*ws are.

    And people can see for themselves what liars, then, the Hub*rs are.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 14:01:36 PDT 1996
Article: 50764 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 16 Jul 1996 09:52:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4sg6q5$n88@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org> <4s726g$cqj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sdhso$li8@access5.digex.net> <4sfg86$o2l@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sfg86$o2l@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 15 Jul 1996 09:42:48 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s726g$cqj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>>In article <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Where is there proof that it was Dresden? Where is there proof of
>>>>firebombing?
>>>>
>>>>Your rules - back at you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Sorry, this just doesn't work.  Where are the three million who were
>>>gassed?  Completely disappeared.  Not so Dresden.  Photographs and foreign
>>>journalists visited the scene, the destruction, and the corpses within
>>>days.  Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka.  Thousands of individuals, and even
>>>national governments whose archives were not compromised by their enemies
>>>admitted to the bombing of Dresden.  Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka.  Less
>>>than 200 people claim to be eyewitnesses to the gassings that consumed 3
>>>million, including many on trial for their lives and who denied personal
>>>responsibility or involvement.  Not so Dresden.  And so forth.
>
>>    You aren't following the discussion very well.  The dispute is not
>>really about whether Dresden was bombed, no more than anyone disputes
>>whether Zyklon was used in the camps, although the reductio argument can
>>be used on Dresden documents - they are _not_ immune to forgery.  
>
>	It is your claim that there was ever a dispute over forged documents.

    You brought up the issue of documents from Soviet sources.  Are you 
saying that you do not dispute their authenticity, or are you saying
that they are indisputably forged?  If the latter, then you bear burden of
proof for such a claim.  Get busy.  If the former, then there are more
than just a couple of documents.  If you can't remember what you wrote
>from  day to day (as is evident from the three contradictory stories you've
told about Rack Jite's website), seek medical help.


>The
>>dispute is not about whether there was a major fire and loss of life, no
>>more than anyone disputes that a large number of people - well over
>>100,000 even by SS records of registered prisoner deaths undisputed by
>>revisionists - died at Auschwitz.
>
>    And the issue was never over recorded deaths but of the gassing
>    deaths.
>
>	You really should start paying attention.  

    Matt, you really should start learning to read.

    That is just what I said, as should be clear to anyone with
fifth-grade reading comprehension. It's even clearer if you put back the
text you cut out.  But you know that. 

    However, you have tried to change the subject, which is Dresden.
Obviously hoping nobody will notice your embarrassing failure to make the
case on physical evidence alone, as you said you could do, with no
reliance on eyewitness testimony.  Let's stay on track here.

    Got any physical evidence for that firestorm yet?  I thought not.

    And I did not even mention the fact that there was a supposed policy
to create large-scale firestorms in German cities, which they got right
the very first time they tried it in Dresden, yet bombing raids after
Dresden did not cause firestorms. 

    Obviously no policy of firebombing.  And on the physical evidence,
obviously just an ordinary fire spreading uncontrolled due to destruction
of firefighting capability, since we must discard those hysterical
eyewitness testimonies on which the firestorm myth is based.

    Want a towel to wipe the cider from your eye, Dresdenhugging fool?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 15:54:30 PDT 1996
Article: 50766 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Best of Tom Moran
Date: 16 Jul 1996 16:00:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <4sgsc0$c24@access5.digex.net>
References: <31d921ee.5817326@news.pacificnet.net> <4rt1tj$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4s1fho$3ic@shiva.usa.net> <31e44b64.3784607@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net



-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 15:54:31 PDT 1996
Article: 50773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 16 Jul 1996 16:04:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4sgsl8$ccb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rs72o$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rtr5n$jts@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rtr5n$jts@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article <4rs72o$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>>ubject:	Mauving right along
>>From:	mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date:	Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:51 GMT
>>
>>	A most amazing thing has occurred.  
>>
>>	After months of insisting upon blue coloring, after hundreds of
>messages
>>on the subject, testimony as to a different color is presented.
>>
>>	Lo and Behold!  The color is easily misidentified!  
>>
>>	Can this misidentification be applied to the original blue?  
>>
>
>One of the reasons I posted the information so fast when I found it was
>because there had been so many messages over the past several weeks on
>this seemingly minor issue.  But when I pointed out that a witness said
>*mauve* I was promptly asked, what difference does it make?
>
>There is a commitment to *blue* on this board, just as there is a
>commitment to *ERCO cubes*, but I haven't the slightest idea why.  I have
>already suggested that *blue* would be an obvious color choice for someone
>who had never seen the stuff or for someone who was easily suggestible
>(because of *Blausauere*).  

    Maybe blue would be an obvious color choice for someone who was not a
painter or writer and did not know hundreds of different shade names.

    Nah.  Too simple.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 15:54:31 PDT 1996
Article: 50778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA, there, gone, there again
Date: 16 Jul 1996 17:10:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4sh0fu$f8p@access5.digex.net>
References: <31ea5cf3.8114509@news.pacificnet.net> <31eb8984.140608@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31eb8984.140608@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	Seems every click in Nizkor brings you to a loony toon.

    You are one of those clicks, Tommy.

    So is Mr. Giwer.  Maybe he will sue you for calling him a loony toon.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 18:21:03 PDT 1996
Article: 50813 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Substance and Hot Air
Date: 16 Jul 1996 14:30:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <4sgn3n$58e@access5.digex.net>
References: <31ebb96b.12403383@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31ebb96b.12403383@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>	
>	Mr.(s) Edeiken and Mittleman along with Mr.Stein are big on
>alleging Moran has committed "lies", "anti-Semitisms", "evasions" and
>other naughty things. Moran simply asks, "Wherzat?". The trio then
>just reiterates the same thing.

    Wherzat?


>	Now Moran is another story. He puts the record out here about
>such things as lies, corruption, racism, blustering, idiotic
>statements, bantering and so on.
>
>"How soon is soon"

    Anyone can type the name of a thread, Little Tommy.


>"'Just ask for Rachelle'"

    Don't just give a title.  Quote the words that support your empirical
method.*


>"'Coming to a newsgroup near you'"

    Where?  Excactly?


>"Nizkor's code of responding"

    Wherzat?


>"The Best of Nizkor"

    But where are the explicits?*


>"'I will ... this weekend'"

    You have to explain how this supports your claims.


>"McVay, down by the school yard"

    Anyone can give a list of thread titles.


>"The cultured McVay"

    Do you really expect people to think that if you give a thread name,
it proves your point?  You should post the text right here and tell how it
shows what you say.    


>"Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky - Corrupt"

    Oh, I remember this one.  If you look in the thread you will see my
explanation of the real problem, which is that stupid little Tommy
couldn't figure out how to incite his rigii* properly. 


>"Treblinka, there, gone, there again"
>
>"Nizkor/JDL ... against evil Christians"
>
>"Boys in the Sand"
>
>"Boys in the Sand II"
>
>"Morans Dreams Vanish"
>
>....	and the host of others. 

    Where are your explicits?* You just throw out titles and expect people
to believe that they prove your claim.  This is an argumentum ad
ignorantiam.  Also an argumentum ab ignoramus. 

    *Those needing a translation from the Moranic, please contact me by
email.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 19:19:51 PDT 1996
Article: 50817 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 16 Jul 1996 19:17:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4sh7tc$ke7@access5.digex.net>
References: <00002fc9+00008a90@msn.com> <4s9lua$20u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4sfhr7$73l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sfhr7$73l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:14:24 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>>As to "comprehension of engineering": I will be judged by
>>my colleagues, not by a senile loser who can't even find a 
>>bloody job.
>
>	Doesn't need a job.  Keep that firmly in mind.  Does not need a job.

    It will be interesting to see if this remains true if Mr. Giwer is
actually idiotic enough to carry through on his juvenile mutterings about
legal action.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 19:19:52 PDT 1996
Article: 50823 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 16 Jul 1996 10:42:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4sg9o8$q0d@access5.digex.net>
References: <31e9796f.2325194@news.pacificnet.net> <4sc5k1$se8@news.enter.net> <31ea461b.2266315@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31ea461b.2266315@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>  	How desperate. After accusing Moran of all sorts of things and
>>>  refusing to present any evidence 
>>
>>	That is an outright lie.  I have repeatedly offered to prove my 
>>contentions before an impartial body.  L'il Tommy is one afraid of impartial bodies.
>
>	When ever Moran goads Mr.Edeiken to present his proof he
>constantly resorts to the above instead of just posting the "lie(s)".
>Moran ask him "wherzat?" and Mr.Edeiken points to the moon.  

    No, he points to your posts.  In fact, there's another Tommy lie right
now!  There!  There!  Yale often reposts the text where he proposed to
prove your corruption to courtroom standards, just as you asked.  But you
never agreed to pay for it if you lost, which was one of the conditions. 
Is that because you're scared of losing, little Tommy?

    In which post did Mr. Edeiken point to the moon?  Wherzat?  Exactly?

    Your failure to answer will show your corruption, little Tommy.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 20:28:42 PDT 1996
Article: 50839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: At last it can be told
Date: 16 Jul 1996 10:48:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4sga45$qch@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rqd32$bsn@access1.digex.net> <4rvl74$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4sda14$89n@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4sfhov$73l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sfhov$73l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Jul 96 17:25:21 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele
>Abels) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>	US law is civilization, fool.
>
>>>	The US is the world at this point in history.
>
>>>	If you do not understand that then you have no understanding of either
>>>the past or the present.
>
>>And you are the epitome of civilization?
>
>	Epitome is irrelevent, the US is the world at this point.  The world
>will certainly change again and it will be some other nation in the
>future but for now, live with it.  
>
>	Although the ARPA Program Manager for arpanet was a Dutch national, it
>was US companies and US money.  And he was hired for the job after it
>was a go.  

    Say, Matt, do you suppose you could possibly _stay_ _on_ _track_? 

    Have you figured out the answer to my riddle?

    The charge of violation of the rules and customs of war was ex post
facto - but not at Nuremberg.

    In other words, you are wrong again.

    But I grant that you are in good company in being wrong.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 22:00:48 PDT 1996
Article: 50859 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 16 Jul 1996 15:00:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4sgosg$852@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sa8a5$i3q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4sb29i$kun@news.enter.net> <4scib8$8i5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scib8$8i5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 14 Jul 1996 15:04:18 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>>>  
>>>  	Dear jerkoff Jew,
>
>>	A fine statement from someone who claims he is going to sue for, 
>>apparently, being labelled an anti-Semite.  I  suggest you read how the federal 
>>courts deal with litigants who file frivolous lawsuits.
>
>	What is antisemitic about that?  

    I guess it would depend if you filed your frivolous lawsuits against
Jews just because they were Jews and you wanted to harrass them, wouldn't
it?

    Anyway, I am sure you can tell by now just how really, really scared
everybody is by silly talk of lawsuits.  In other words, censorship by
intimidation isn't going to fly around here.  Either file your garbage
suit or don't.  If you need to get hold of me for service of process, send
me email to set up an appointment - I often don't know where I'm going to
be working until the last minute.  (Long distance phone calls will be
returned collect, sorry.)  But please don't waste bandwidth flapping your
electronic jaw about it.  Try to stay on track.  There's quite a bit of
mail you haven't answered. 

    Of course if you're trying to distract people from the fact that you
have an eyeful of cider, I guess your strategy makes reasonable sense.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 23:54:12 PDT 1996
Article: 50866 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Christians 'take it like a man'
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 16 Jul 1996 11:50:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4sgdp0$5n@access5.digex.net>
References: <31d9d63d.9319838@news.pacificnet.net> <4rhbco$m1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4rsuqn$6ff@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rvfgp$8e3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:50866 alt.usenet.kooks:27115 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:174

In article <4rvfgp$8e3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote [to Nele Abels]:
>	You are a self proclaimed German.
>
>	You and / or your parents were responsible for murdering Jews.  

    Perhaps there is some truth to the "Evil Little German Babies" thread,
then.  Nele has said in another post that his parents were at most three
years old during the war.  And they were murdering Jews at that tender
age, according to Mr. Giwer, or at least responsible.  Perhaps their
crying made their parent surly and caused them to take out their
frustrations by murdering Jews?  I eagerly await Mr. Giwer's explanation. 


>	Why do you not admit your guilt and get it over with?
>
>	Perhaps you could kill yourself in atonement for the evils of your
>parents.  It would be the least you could do.  

    When Mr. Giwer kills himself in atonement for his own sins perhaps
then he will have some grounds to issue such a troll, er, I mean
challenge.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 16 23:54:13 PDT 1996
Article: 50869 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: 960708: Bombardment
Followup-To: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Date: 16 Jul 1996 11:54:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4sge0c$bn@access5.digex.net>
References: <199607087203.ABA1812@infinity.c2.org>  <4rt8ea$8kg@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1716 alt.revisionism:50869 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:175

In article <4rt8ea$8kg@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 13:40:23 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>wrote:
>
>>I love the Zgrams that concern the net, because Ms. Rimland always
>>manages to demonstrate her ignorance about the very medium she works in,
>>to the amusement of all.
>
>>zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

[...]

>>> Additionally, last night the Zundelsite received some rather unpleasant
>>> electronic bombardment.  Somebody put us on some 70+ automatic listserves
>
>>It's pretty annoying, isn't it, Ms. Rimland?  Nizkor knows -- we got hit
>>by the same attack over six months ago, except we got 200 listservs
>>instead of just 70:
>
>	It sounds like you are claiming responsibility for the retaliation.  

    It sounds like it only to illiterates and lying trolls.

    But you know that.

    Which are you?  It is permitted to choose more than one answer, of
course.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 07:36:29 PDT 1996
Article: 50936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: class action testicles
Date: 16 Jul 1996 14:49:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4sgo7h$6re@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s7u12$31t@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31ea5750.6672069@news.pacificnet.net> <4se9ca$i28@access5.digex.net> <31eb89c3.203606@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31eb89c3.203606@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>    Where did Jamie say he can't read German?  Exactly?
>
>	He ask me to translate it for Nizkor. Why do you have to be told?
>You can't remember from one day to the next?

    I remember perfectly, Tommy.  Apparently this is too complicated for
your poor head.  Let's try something simpler that you might be able to
relate to your own experience.

    If you ask someone to go to the store to get something for you, does
this mean you do not know how to go to the store yourself? 

    Or does it mean that you don't have _time_ to go to the store because
you're busy doing something else? 

    Think, Tommy!  Think real hard!  Use every brain cell you have!  I
know you can do it!

    Now maybe you can figure out the answer to the question about German.

    Where did Jamie say he can't read German?  Exactly?

    I know lots of children who would have figured it out by now.  So what
does that say about you, Tommy?


>>>	So much for Jamie. I realized back in November, 1995, when I
>>>first received e-mail from Jamie, that he had the mind of a child.
>>
>>    I know a number of children who could figure out the correct answer to
>>Tom Moran's question.  What does this say about Tom Moran's mind?
>>
>>    Jealous, Tommy?
>
>	Do you ever show any of your stuff to people you know?

    All the time.  They enjoy it very much.  They also think you and Mr. 
Giwer are very funny.  Especially when you're not trying to be. 


>>    (Cc:'d to Jamie McCarthy but not Tom Moran - wouldn't want to make his
>>rigii explode.)
>
>	Anyway, the rodeo clown stepped in for Jamie again.

    Gee, Tommy, what was that about child minds that call people names? 


>What's the
>problem, he doesn't trust Jamie to post for himself?

    Why don't you answer the question about going to the store?  Maybe it
will give you a clue which will help you to answer your own question.  Do
you think you can figure it out, Tommy?  Do you need some help?  I suggest
you go find a twelve-year-old child.  He or she will more than likely be
able to help you find the right answer.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 07:36:30 PDT 1996
Article: 50937 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 16 Jul 1996 19:22:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4sh87r$kmk@access5.digex.net>
References: <00002fc9+00008a90@msn.com>  <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net> <31EC0902.4D08@mail.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31EC0902.4D08@mail.gte.net>, Bud   wrote:
>tom moran wrote:
>>         It would be a tactical error for the likes of the former
>> professor, or the former impersonating professor, whichever the case
>> may be, to come out and downright endorse the censorship. Any
>> statement he says in support of free speech I see as just a tacit
>> approval to give the illusion he is for free speech.
>>         My personal opinion based on my long time experience of
>> witnessing the factions constant barrage against open debate about the
>> Holocaust or Zionism.
>> 
>
>I would tend to generally agree with your assessment, Tom.  Although I 
>have not spent a great of time on this newsgroup, it has been my 
>observation almost from the outset that many (not all, but too many to 
>my observation) of the exterminationists on this group are in favor of 
>censorship,

    Perhaps you would like to do something novel and support this
accusation with evidence? 


> and demonstrate a proclivity towards doing and supporting 
>censorship of opinion -- most of all the constant accusations, 
>name-calling, and othert undesirable tactics. 

    I think you perhaps should look up the word "censorship" in a
dictionary before you continue.  This word does not mean what you seem to
think it means.

    Also, accusations which can be backed up by evidence (e.g., lies which
can be proved to be such) are, I think, defensible.  Your own accusation
of support of censorship, on the other hand, unsupported by any evidence,
would seem to be one of the undesirable tactics you decry.

    Posted and emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 10:59:42 PDT 1996
Article: 50984 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Just ask for Rachelle"
Date: 16 Jul 1996 17:18:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4sh0um$flv@access5.digex.net>
References: <31ea49f9.3256448@news.pacificnet.net> <31eb8a1b.292036@news.pacificnet.net> <31eb9264.2412800@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31eb9264.2412800@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>	Another way of putting it.
>>
>>
>>                          Mr. Edeiken: 
>>
>> 	"No you lying little scumbag.  There is no "endorsement" for any
>>of your lies. 
>>
>> Just ask for Rachelle."
>>                    --------------------
>>
>>     Her name is Rachelle (and she has read your posts).  
>>                    --------------------
>>
>>	"That is why Rachelle, a very nice lady by the way, is waiting
>>for you.  
>>                    --------------------                    
>>       "Her name -- given twice -- is Rachelle."
>>                    ____________________
>>    
>>
>>	Wrong again, L'il Tommy.  She's there (I talked to her today).
>>She's still waiting to hear from you.  You are right, however, her
>>name is not "Rachelle." 
>
>	Of course as the initial post shows, I didn't say anything about
>the "name" being wrong, I said she didn't exist, that she was (and
>evidentally still is), "a figment of Mr.Edeiken's fabrication".
>

    How do you know she doesn't exist, if you haven't gone to the library?

    Tommy, have you considered how childish you look always posting
followups to your own articles and breaking things up into many small
posts?  Can't you think of what you want to say and put it all in one
post?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 10:59:43 PDT 1996
Article: 50989 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How do you keep a Moran in suspense?
Date: 16 Jul 1996 17:23:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4sh18m$fv7@access5.digex.net>
References: <31e90cca.8929322@news.pacificnet.net> <4sbilo$o70@access5.digex.net> <31e9772a.1743758@news.pacificnet.net> <31ebd030.18232079@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31ebd030.18232079@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>    Well, since I saw this first, I'll step in even though I'm not an
>>>official officer.  I tried what Tom Moran suggested and I saw the
>>>following:
>>
>>	I wonder how this person knew he was the "first" person to see
>>this post? What he did was to play the "Rodeo Clown" to jump in and
>>answer for Jamie. 
>
>	Well, Mr.Stein, are you going to tell how you knew you were the
>"first"?  

    No.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 10:59:44 PDT 1996
Article: 51003 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 17 Jul 1996 11:55:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4sj2cs$mb1@access5.digex.net>
References: <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31e90d69.9088329@news.pacificnet.net> <4sbgvg$n8k@access5.digex.net> <31e9770d.1715142@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e9770d.1715142@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <31e90d69.9088329@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran  wrote:
>>>	I wonder how many frivolous lawsuits this YFE idiot has filed in
>>>his goofy career?
>>
>>
>>    I wonder how many childish and mindless insults (like this one) this
>>Tom Moran idiot has posted in this newsgroup in his goofy career? 
>
>	Why don't you post the evidence Mr.Stein? Thats what I do. 
>Barring this, your statement is nothing more than a statement. Your
>statement, nothing more. 

    Actually, Tommy, it was a question.  Didn't you see the little '?'
doodad at the end of my sentence?  (It's not a clickable doodad, sorry.)
It's called a "question mark."  If it had been a statement, it would have
ended with one of those period doodads ('.').  This has been your English
lesson for the day.

    But why should I post the evidence when you do it for me?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 10:59:45 PDT 1996
Article: 51004 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lawsuit threats
Date: 17 Jul 1996 11:39:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4sj1em$llb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sieaa$d01@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sieaa$d01@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Where was the outrage when "Gord McFee" was the first to initiate that
>threat?  Where was the ridicule?  Where were the responses that are
>nonsense in either direction?
>
>	No where of course.  

    That's because the suit would clearly be meritorious.  You made a
direct and defamatory accusation of criminal telephone harrassment that
you cannot prove, and accused him of being Marduk when Colin MacGregor
explicitly denied ever telling you any such thing.  Those are the
particulars which would go into a libel suit.

    You have not given any valid cause of action with a bill of
particulars, and I certainly cannot see any which would give you even a
sustainable case of ordinary libel, let alone a cause of action under
RICO.

    One would think that a 163 IQ type could see this very relevant
difference.  Why are you unable to see it?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 14:38:57 PDT 1996
Article: 51060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!news-e2a.gnn.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 17 Jul 1996 11:47:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4sj1ve$lv5@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org> <4sfgir$q15@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4si1ai$8ke@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4si1ai$8ke@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:23:51 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>>The number of Treblinka victims is estimated at 700,000. Many
>>of them were children and infants.
>
>	I await YOUR calculations based upon the asumption of children.
>Certainly a person with a PhD in math can do that without cracking a
>calculator.  Why is it you are so reluctant to do that?
>
>I suggest you have already done the calculations and do not want to post
>the results.  
>
>	You know that it would not explain the lack of discovery.  

    The lack of concerted effort to go through the site and identify every
ash particle, every bone fragment, etc., however ....

    Perhaps you could post _your_ calculations of how much labor effort it
would take to recover and identify such remains from that volume of earth.
Then you might contemplate other possible theories to explain lack of
discovery of the requisite weight.

    In the meantime, any physical evidence for that Dresden firebombing?
There is some very crucial physical evidence you have consistently failed
to present.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 19:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51079 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 17 Jul 1996 17:49:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4sjn5o$8i2@access5.digex.net>
References: <2b4_9607062322@tor250.org> <4rvkfe$sd9@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31E42AF9.486A@unb.ca> <4s2ige$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s2ige$k3i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:13:13 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> Your parents were murders as were your grandparents and you have no room
>>> to talk until you apologize for their murders before this group and to
>>> tell us all that you have accused them of being murderers to their
>>> faces.
>
>>How about me asking.  I'm not German.
>
>	I was not talking to you.  
>
>	Bugger off.  

    This is a public newsgroup.  If you want to have a private
conversation, use email.  If you insist on making it public, others have
the ability and the right to comment.  If you don't like it, you can 
just bugger off. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 17 23:20:48 PDT 1996
Article: 51116 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIGGER COWARDS
Date: 14 Jul 1996 14:25:50 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4sbe3e$llh@access5.digex.net>
References: <31DF89E4.1F72@hkabc.net> <31e248a6.3892754@news.pacificnet.net> <4rufr7$smd@access5.digex.net> <31e3a5af.663823@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e3a5af.663823@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <31e248a6.3892754@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran  wrote:
>>>In the event he isn't, I would point
>>>out he uses the word "coward" and signs with a alias. 
>>
>>    A lot of your friends sign with aliases.  Haven't you noticed?
>
>	No. Can you show it?

    The evidence is right here in the group at this time.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 18 00:24:15 PDT 1996
Article: 51150 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Tom Moran Web Browser Incompetence
Date: 14 Jul 1996 15:43:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 104
Message-ID: <4sbilo$o70@access5.digex.net>
References: <31e90cca.8929322@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e90cca.8929322@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>
>	For anyone who would like to get a clear idea of Nizkor
>practices, check their files under ftp>
>"camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images".
>
>Recently under alt.rev. "Any day now" Jamie McCarthy directed Moran,
>and thus any reader to see "some very interesting source documents". 
>
>"Mr. Moran, we don't have the patent posted yet, but we do have scans
>of some very interesting source documents which Gerhard Rudolf used:
>original works on Zyklon itself.  Namely, _Blausaeure zur
>Schaedlingsbekaempfung_, written by Gerhard Peters in 1933.  Since you
>have so much free time, perhaps you'd like to type in a transcription
>of these JPEGs, and then translate it for us?  Thanks, I appreciate
>it."
>
>As it turned out the long list of URLs Jamie supplied were wrong,
>Jamie having to come back and set it straight.
>
>"Sorry, we created some new directories and moved things around --
>you'll notice that the dkeren-incoming directory is nearly empty, all
>its files have been sent to more appropriate homes.  Try:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images"
>
>For anyone who would like to experience this direction, be prepared
>for the mother of all wacky browser rides. 
>
>What Jamie has given here will take you to a list, "peters-03.jpg",
>".04, 58, 59,60,61,62,63" continuing "peters-rosch-132" through "136".
>
>Clicking up each one will bring up the exact same copy:
>
>	"Reference:
>
>     Peters, Gerhard, and W. Rasch. Die Einsatzfaehigkeit der
>Blausaeure-Durchgasung bei tiefen Temperaturen, Zeitschrift fuer
>hygienische Zoologie und Schaedlingsbekaempfung. ["The Serviceability
>of Prussic Acid Gassing at Low Temperatures, Journal of Hygienic
>Zoology and Pest Control."] 1941. p. 135."
>
>Even though the listing also includes a kilobyte number after each
>item, the above is all you will get. Most rediculous. 
>
>You can click up one of the options below to "switch to" - "tables" or
>something like that, which will bring you to a list almost the same as
>the first. Clicking through this list is mostly the same experience
>you have with the other. Even though there are kilobytes ranging into
>the hundreds after each one, you will get nary nothing. One or two of
>them have a scanned page from the 1933 book by Peters, which is
>written in German.
>
>Maybe Jamie or any other Nizkor official officer will come out and
>explain what any browsers should get from this.

    Well, since I saw this first, I'll step in even though I'm not an
official officer.  I tried what Tom Moran suggested and I saw the
following:

peters-03.jpg (ref)

and a bunch of lines just like it.

    What Tom Moran didn't think to do was to click on the part that said
"peters-03.jpg."  That will show a page from the article.  Instead, Tom
Moran clicked on the part that said "ref" which gives what he saw.

    It sounds like he accidentally managed to click on the right part once
or twice, but wasn't smart enough to figure out what he was doing wrong
the other times.

    Of course the article is in German, so it won't do Tom Moran much
good.  In another article instead of being happy that the information is
there for anyone - revisionist or otherwise - to use, all he did was whine
about how it was in German.

    Even people who speak foreign languages very well have trouble doing
translations of specialized technical articles such as the Peters article
and the Zyklon and Topf patents.  Poor disappointed little Tommy will just
have to wait.  Of course he will never bother to learn German so that he
can educate himself.  He expects Nizkor to spoonfeed him right now, or
else he'll snivel and complain and stamp his foot because he isn't getting
what he wants, right now!


>My opinion is that Nizkor is engaged in a corrupt practice, insulting
>to anyone who would access the site, intentionally.

    My opinion is that Tom Moran is a loud fool who cannot figure out how
to "incite his rigii" properly and then blames Nizkor for his own
foolish mistakes.


>For anyone wanting to experience the idiotic contempt, check it out.

    No, anyone wanting to experience idiotic contempt should check out
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom - now THERE is
some idiotic contempt!
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 18 00:54:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51158 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 18 Jul 1996 01:47:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4skj65$s7j@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sbgvg$n8k@access5.digex.net> <4sbjcn$onv@news.enter.net> <31e9796f.2325194@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e9796f.2325194@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>	How desperate. After accusing Moran of all sorts of things and
>refusing to present any evidence on repeated goading

   That's only because he needs a judge to present the evidence in front
of.  Since little Tommy the liar is the defendant, he can't be the one to
judge the evidence.  And little Tommy the coward has run away from Yale
Edeiken's challenge for little Tommy to pay for a hearing in front of a
member of the American Arbitration Association if little Tommy the
antisemite loses.

    I have a feeling that if you just agree to Yale's terms, little Tommy
coward, you'll get all the evidence you can stomach.  Along with a big fat
bill. 


>this person comes
>out wailing about taking the back door to silencing his adversaries.
>It seems we are now seeing the real mind behind all the tough talk.
>	He won't be able to deliver on the previous request for him to
>show where Moran "defined the rules" just like he has never once taken
>Moran up on his challenge to many of Mr.Edieken's accusations.

    That's because little Tommy the coward ran away.

    And now little Tommy the liar is going to play ostrich and say,
"wherzat?" 

    Here's how to see proof of little Tommy's cowardice and dishonesty:

    Go to http://www.dejanews.com

    Click 'Power search'

    For the author, enter 'yawen@enter.net'

    Click 'Submit filter'

    Search for 'arbitration'

    I found ten separate posts by Yale mentioning his challenge that he
would meet little Tommy's request for proof in front of a neutral judge if
little Tommy the coward would agree to pay for it if the judge agreed with
Yale.  Little Tommy the coward never answered.  DejaNews allows you to
look through the thread to confirm this.

    All little Tommy the liar can do is say "wherzat" and pretend he
never saw those posts.

    However, any other reader can go to the web site I gave, do the search
I specified, and see that little Tommy is corrupt.

    Too bad DejaNews is around to keep the documented record of your
corruption, little Tommy liar.

    Posted and emailed to little Tommy, so he can lie some more about not
seeing things.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 18 09:35:47 PDT 1996
Article: 51212 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: interesting event
Date: 17 Jul 1996 12:08:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4sj35g$n0u@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s7v9g$78e@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4sfv2c$ln5@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <31EC0A50.60BF@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31EC0A50.60BF@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>
>Well, Matt *IS* showing signs of delusional paranoia - or trying to
>troll when he's trolled out.

    Soon after showing up in this newsgroup at the beginning of the year,
he asked whether Michael P. Stein was my real name. I grant that an alias
is possible, but since I give a mailing address in my sig file, and a call
to directory assistance for Arlington, VA will get my home phone number, I
thought it was a rather bizarre (and paranoid) question. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 18 09:35:48 PDT 1996
Article: 51225 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 17 Jul 1996 18:26:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4sjpb4$b26@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sa8a5$i3q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4scib8$8i5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4sgosg$852@access5.digex.net> <4shvf5$7ec@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4shvf5$7ec@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 16 Jul 1996 15:00:32 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4scib8$8i5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 14 Jul 1996 15:04:18 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  	Dear jerkoff Jew,
>>>
>>>>	A fine statement from someone who claims he is going to sue for, 
>>>>apparently, being labelled an anti-Semite.  I  suggest you read how the federal 
>>>>courts deal with litigants who file frivolous lawsuits.
>>>
>>>	What is antisemitic about that?  
>
>>    I guess it would depend if you filed your frivolous lawsuits against
>>Jews just because they were Jews and you wanted to harrass them, wouldn't
>>it?
>
>	Excuse me, but McVay is a notorious non-Jew.  It would be quite
>difficult to make that claim stick, would it not?  And since he appears
>to be the organizer and ringleader of this conspiracy, certainly the
>central figure in the paths to the "contriubtors" and donation
>acceptors, there is no way the suit itself could be considered as
>harrassing Jews.

    Your illiteracy, amnesia, and complete ignorance are all showing in
the above paragraph, but I'll let you learn all your mistakes the hard way
should you ever get around to actually filing something.


>	That Jews may have been suckered in by his ploy is their problem.  

    You asked a slightly ambiguous and more than slightly inane question.
I answered generally.  Your application of my answer to a specific case is
correct, for what it's worth.  The average twelve-year-old could have come
up with the same right answer, but congratulations.  Now, what's the
point?

    Of course if we resolve the ambiguity in favor of "What's antisemitic
about saying, 'Dear jerkoff Jew,'" my answer would change as well.

    We could forget about all this silliness and get back on track, you
know.  Want to discuss the Goebbels diary entry?  Cremation energy?  Or
the Dresden analogy?  (Need a towel for the cider in your eye?)  Why are
you having such trouble focusing?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 18 23:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 51302 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Any day now"?
Date: 18 Jul 1996 14:53:50 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4sm17u$s1m@access5.digex.net>
References: <31e6497a.1895296@news.pacificnet.net> <31EC0873.19B3@gryn.org> <4sigqc$nck@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31ED60C1.2120@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31ED60C1.2120@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>         Who would want one across the border?  There are plenty of conspirators
>> in the US.
>
>Zero, Matt. Accuse one of that conspiracy and HE will sue YOU.

    Well, not necessarily.  The famous doctrine "non ex ratibus sanguis" 
applies. 


>And that will be a winning case for him - no questions asked.

    Indeed, Gordon McFee has a very meritorious case against Mr. Giwer. 
The only real question is whether the amount which can be recovered is
sufficient to make the action worthwhile.  I suppose it comes down to
whether one really believes Mr. Giwer's boasts about his financial
situation.

    His boasts about a 163 IQ seem rather far removed from reality based
on the content of his posts.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 19 07:29:51 PDT 1996
Article: 51349 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Misuse of Holocaust sources
Date: 17 Jul 1996 13:54:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4sj9db$rbr@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s0hcj$o26@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sflbg$q58@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <199607161700.NAA08838@vixa.voyager.net> <31EC72B6.7BAD@kaiwan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31EC72B6.7BAD@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven   wrote:
>Apparently, Mr. McCarthy does not understand the reason why I am making
>this piece available on the Web. It is not because Mr. Giwer's analysis
>is brilliant, but rather because he has identified a common problem with
>the use of Holocaust sources: that is, different scholars treat any
>given source to such remarkably different ways that it is difficult to
>believe that they are dealing with one source, and not multiple,
>conflicting sources.

    Actually, the problem in this case is not with conflicting sources. 
There was a problem with reading too much into the text.  Going back to
the source, the only thing that links Breitwieser with the idea of using
Zyklon was the testimony of Motz, who reported one offhand remark "Good,
now we have something to use on the prisoners" or some such.  Even if we
accept Motz's uncorroborated quote as being word-for-word exact, there
appears to be no basis for Conot to conclude that Breitwieser was serious,
or that he communicated this idea to Fritsche.  Fritsche may have had it
independently.  Not even Conot claims that Breitwieser gave the order to
try it.

    What is interesting is that apparently neither you nor Mr. Giwer made
any attempt to go back to Conot's source and track down the actual
testimony on which the claim was based.  Had you done so, you would have
found that there was less here than meets the eye, and the witnesses were
not the ones responsible for the conflict.  One would think someone
interested in historical truth would have conducted this investigation.


>The treatment of the testimonies of Rudolf Hoess is another great
>example of this, about which I will have more to say later.

    Why don't you also include the comments of Pressac on the testimony of
Bo"ck?  Are you finally ready to discuss what Pressac actually said vs. 
the treatment you posted?  It really was hard to believe you had read the
same book I did, and I would certainly call what you posted a misuse of
the source. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 19 16:20:07 PDT 1996
Article: 51433 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: freedom of speech
Date: 19 Jul 1996 12:23:54 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4socqq$69@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sabnf$h5h@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>  <4sk766$48k@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sk766$48k@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:39:18 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>Get a job. It will be good for you, and make you less hostile
>>to the world.
>
>It is quite amusing that you folks only believe me when I say something
>that you can interperate as negative.

    It is quite amusing that you think people believe you about anything
without independent confirmation, given the frequency of your lies.


>Why is it you have not had a suspicion that I do have a job but got you
>off of hunting for it with the claim so that you would not be hassling
>my employer?

    It is quite amusing that you think anyone posting here would go off
hunting for your job had you admitted being employed.


>	Why is it you assume that self-employed is not a possibility?

    Judging by your posting volume in recent months, things look to be a
mite slow.


>	Why is it you folks continue to looks like such fools?  

    Because you are still looking in a mirror, silly person who thinks he
might have a RICO case against Nizkor and thinks "after a few minutes
there was silence" means that the screaming went on for tens of minutes.

    If a job is too much for you, take lessons to improve your reading and
writing skills.  You could benefit from those as well.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 19 16:20:08 PDT 1996
Article: 51457 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer admits blowing smoke
Date: 19 Jul 1996 17:01:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4sot40$d2l@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4sfork$9iu@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <31EC054B.69F9@gryn.org> <4sig7n$8b2@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sig7n$8b2@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:10:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>>         But that is contrary to what a doc the holohuggers love have posted.
>
>>My calculation was based on the simplest set of figures presented and
>>show an adequate speed under sub-optimal conditions.
>
>	Please present your calculation for review.  
>
>>Since I did not use all of the data that might be out there, any
>>purported "contradiction" would be due to my constraining the
>>conditions.
>
>>IOW - it ain't contrary, Matt. It simply says that Zyklon-B has the
>>necessary behavior to do the job.
>
>	I will be awaiting the post of your calculations.  Until then, 
>you are blowing smoke.

    As Mr. Giwer has consistently failed to post calculations (except for
an abortive attempt at number of calories necessary to deal with some
water in cremation, a job he never finished), it is clear he admits that
all his claims about rates, condensation, etc. were just blowing smoke.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 19 16:20:09 PDT 1996
Article: 51478 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More evidence of Giwer's Alzheimer's
Date: 19 Jul 1996 17:36:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <4sov4l$e98@access5.digex.net>
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In article <4sif8o$ahj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 16 Jul 1996 11:30:28 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:

[snip]
[reformatted:]

   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

   These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
   the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
   enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
   on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.

>>>>    Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?
>>>
>>>	Are you saying that the wire mesh induction columns have gone away?  
>
>>    They were present only in Kremas II and III.  As I said, you have
>>never figured out which buildings had which names and which features
>>because you neither understand nor remember what you read.  How can you
>>possibly be qualified to participate in the discussion if you cannot get
>>this right after months of reading in both this newsgroup and on Nizkor?
>
>In fact you were arguing that the "gassing design features" of the LK
>were improved in IV and V

    I never said such a thing.  Are you lying, or is this simply more
evidence that you have computer-like memory (i.e., 60 nanoseconds)? 


>until I pointed out that a different building
>entirely was used in IV according to Nizkor.  

    Very good!  IV was a different building from II.  And II from III.
And V was a different building as well!  You're learning!

    As far as I can tell, everyone but you knew that IV was a different
building, Matt.

    Oh, by the way - I am talking about KREMAS II, III, IV, and V.  Now,
you may have been unable to figure out how LEICHENKELLER 1 and 2 fit into
all this.  Is that what's giving you problems - can't figure out when we
are talking about a _Leichenkeller_ number, and when we're talking about a
_Krema_ number?  I do wish you would learn to read, it would make life
easier. 

    Do you know where the Leichenkellers were?  Have you even managed to
learn that much in over six months?


>You should work real hard to remember what you were arguing

    I don't need to work to remember my own words.  I am quite certain it
was not my argument, if indeed it was anyone's.  It is your memory which
is clearly in need of work.  I defy you to find the post where I made this
argument.  You will never find it, because it does not exist.  I challenge
you to produce the post where _anyone_ made this argument that the
features were "improved."  _Changed_, yes - they were above ground and the
introduction method was different.  But improved?

    Do you need me to tell you the name of the person with whom you _were_
discussing the design changes, so you can search his posts to support for
your claim (remember, you bear burden of proof)?  You see, I do remember
things far more accurately than you do.


>and at least learn to admit your errors.  

    I do admit my errors, consistently.  When do you plan to start
admitting yours consistently?  One admission per two hundred errors is not
what I call consistently admitting one's errors. 
    
    Now, Matt, let's test your memory.  What question about thermodynamics
have you yet again failed to answer? 

    Or did you forget there was a thermodynamics question on the table? 

    Reread this post.  It's at the beginning.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 19 17:06:42 PDT 1996
Article: 51488 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!tahiti.netreach.net!news1.digex.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Who would be Gannon?
Date: 18 Jul 1996 12:32:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4slovf$m45@access5.digex.net>
References: <4cblcb$p1g@zippy.cais.net> <4rvs1o$ksu@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>  <4sffv6$o2l@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:51488 alt.usenet.kooks:27198

In article <4sffv6$o2l@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:02:14 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>Please support this claim. Who are Mr. McVay's "hired underlings"?
>>Specifically, Mr. Giwer, who has been HIRED by Mr. McVay?
>> 
>>"He who makes a claim bears the responsibility of supporting it." (Matt Giwer)
>
>	If not hired it will make their "following orders" position for being
>excused from the case much more difficult to establish and give the RICO
>charges greater standing.  

    Should Mr. Giwer ever be so foolish as to try to file such a case, and
he turns out to have sufficient assets to keep me from being out of pocket
for the expenses involved in attending the festivities, I wouldn't DREAM
of trying to excuse myself from it.  I look forward to appearing pro se
and cross-examining Mr. Giwer.  If he does not appear as a witness for his
own action, I intend to call him as a hostile witness, though I fear I
shall have to deny myself the pleasure of attending the perjury trial
which will almost certainly follow if Mr. Giwer's behavior on the stand
matches that in the newsgroup.  With any luck there will be some contempt
of court thrown into the mix as well.

    I expect great entertainment value even if the judge does not permit
popcorn to be brought into the courtroom.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 19 19:11:14 PDT 1996
Article: 51497 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 18 Jul 1996 10:28:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4slhlv$gq2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sg6q5$n88@access5.digex.net> <4sl1s2$jab@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sl1s2$jab@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>Actually, the first attempt at a firestorm was in Luebeck in 1942, as I
>recall.  It all stemmed from the tactic of firing the old medieval town
>centers (mostly carved wood) with incendiaries in order to be a beacon to
>successive waves.  As I recall also, Hamburg was the first firestorm, in
>August (?) 1943.

    Once again, how do you know?  Mr. Giwer has told us that firestorms
have characteristic air circulation patterns.  However, there seems to be
a problem with physical evidence of these patterns - since by Mr.  Giwer's
rules we may not rely on hysterical eyewitnesses who report both vortices
and people glowing orange and melting.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 20 09:15:37 PDT 1996
Article: 51543 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 19 Jul 1996 15:08:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4somfl$8a0@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4sn00r$555@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4snjid$jcl@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>Once again, Ehrlich -- is this the sort of "skepticism" of which you
>approve?  Outright lies?
>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>> ERCO is described a cubes which is different from silica gel.  You know
>> that only wood pulp is mentioned in the Degesh pub for the fumigant
>> form.  You know that no one had connected silica gel with ERCO.
>> 
>> And above all, with your vast experience, you know that silica gel NEVER
>> looks mauve in any stage of dry or wet.  
>
>Matt Giwer is telling an outright lie when he says "no one had connected
>silica gel with ERCO."  The connection was pointed out back in February
>and has been mentioned probably dozen times on this newsgroup since then
>-- maybe more.  Mr. Giwer is well aware of this.
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/zyklon-b.001
>
>   (From page 21 of Pressac's book.  ***emphasis***   mine : HWM)
>   
>   2) "Photo 20"
>   
>   "500 grams can of Zyklon-B without it's label, containing small
>   ***bluish pellets*** of porous silica known as Erco, which
>   absorbed the hydrocyanic acid together with 5% of a lachrymogenic
>   and sternutatory agent. These are the 'crystals' of Zyklon-B.
>
>"Porous silica known as Erco," says Pressac.  "[N]o one had connected
>silica gel with ERCO," says Giwer.  Giwer lies.
>
>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer goes on to explain to Mr. Green that silica gel
>"NEVER looks mauve" -- when it has already been pointed out on this
>forum that mauve is a shade of a purplish hue, and when Mr. Green has
>already explained that, in his experience, silica gel's hue varies
>between blue and pink depending on how wet it is.  Thus Mr. Green has
>confirmed for us that mauve is certainly a color that silica gel could
>adopt.  Mr. Giwer knows these things because they've been posted to
>threads in which he is (to say the least) an active participant.
>
>In short, Mr. Giwer is lying through his teeth _again_ -- twice in two
>back-to-back sentences.

    I think for this discussion of color perception it would be
instructive to look at http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/sexist.html.
"People have a tendency to break out laughing when I identify colors. I
can see them all. I just see them differently."

    Yet Mr. Giwer pretends that a discrepancy between "mauve" and "blue" 
in two different witnesses' statements is significant, and that silica gel
NEVER looks mauve.

    Why can it not be that Dr. Nyiszli just sees colors differently?

    I have told Mr. Giwer what he needs to do to get people to stop
calling him a lying troll.  He is a very slow learner. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 20 09:15:38 PDT 1996
Article: 51557 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: 19 Jul 1996 16:42:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4sorvu$c5o@access5.digex.net>
References: <31eafe62.18662855@news.pacificnet.net> <31ee4087.2594986@news.pacificnet.net> <18JUL199618290059@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31ef8833.1759687@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31ef8833.1759687@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>    I have no idea what you are rambling on about.  Methinks you are a
>>    loon.
>
>	"Me" - "thinks"?

    Yes, Tommy.  It's a word Shakespeare used.

    You know who Shakespeare is, don't you?  The guy who didn't write,
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and
remove all doubt?"

    You really should take that advice, Tommy.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 20 09:15:39 PDT 1996
Article: 51580 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'About 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated'
Date: 17 Jul 1996 16:01:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4sjgq3$3vh@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4q31c7$4h6@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4q31c7$4h6@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>The Goebbels [Reich propaganda Minister] diaries, March 27, 1942: 
>>[The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943 - L.P. Lochner, Doubleday & Co., 1948, 
>>p. 147-148]
>>-----------------------------------------------------------
>>Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government 
>>[Nazi occupied Poland] are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure 
>>is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. 
>>Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 
>>60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent 
>>can be used for forced labor.
>> 
>>
>

[Spam deleted]

    Mr. Giwer, this is not eyewitness testimony.

    This is from the personal diary of Goebbels, authenticated as being in
his own handwriting.

    It is not an official Reich government document, but it is an
authentic document written during the war by a Reich official.  It is, in
other words, physical evidence corroborated by expert testimony (as to the
handwriting).  It should, therefore, meet your declared standards. 

    Note that it says only 40% can be used for forced labor.  Note that it
does not say that the remainder will be left laying about idle waiting for
deportation after the war.  It says they will have to be liquidated.

    True, it does not explicitly mention gassing.  It is rather coy about
what is happening - "pretty barbaric" and "not to be described here more
definitely" (but why not?).  Still perhaps you should compare this to the
Wannsee Protocol and see if you can figure out what in the Wannsee
Protocol contradicts this diary entry about the fate of those unable to
work who were not in one of the special preference categories. 

    Nothing, of course.

    We have an authenticated piece of physical evidence which talks of
mass killing.  (To any honest reader, the phrase "will have to be
liquidated" carries a connotation of rather more active measures than
"allowed to die of disease if they happen to get sick.")

    Now, let's take this one step at a time so you don't get confused. 
Before we discuss how this relates to the question of gassing, do you
accept that this piece of authenticated physical evidence written by a top
Reich official is, in fact, valid evidence that there existed a policy or
plan for active mass killing of Jews unable to work?  If you agree that it
is, then we can go on to a discussion of the method(s)  used.  If not,
please state the grounds for your disagreement. 

    Try to stay on track for this one.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 20 12:21:39 PDT 1996
Article: 51649 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.dgsys.com!sloth.swcp.com!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!ferrari.mst6.lanl.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.cerf.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 12 Jul 1996 15:37:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <4s69gv$8u5@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s2lih$jep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4s348h$p5r@access5.digex.net> <4s4jmv$pon@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s4jmv$pon@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 11 Jul 1996 10:48:49 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4s2lih$jep@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 11 Jul 1996 04:30:26 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4s29tf$gqc@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:03:11 +0200, skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger
>>>>>Skok) wrote:
>
>>[discussion of safety measures in American gas chambers deleted for space]
>
>
>>>>>>Of course the American State governments having gas chambers
>>>>>>operated in their prisons go to very great lengths to protect the
>>>>>>guards operating the chambers. They don't want to get sued by
>>>>>>some disgruntled guard over having suffered cyanide poisoning
>>>>>>and now not being able to smoke without coughing, or something
>>>>>>like that. 
>>>>>
>>>>>	On the flip side of the news, according to absolutely reliable and
>>>>>unquestionable eyewitnesses, there was no concern whatsoever about
>>>>>anyone dying and no reports of any of them doing so.  
>>>>>
>>>>>	Further we have clear claims by the holohuggers that this gas was
>>>>>exhausted from an uncertain number of "little chimneys" approximately at
>>>>>ground level without regard to who might have been down wind of it.  
>>>>>
>>>>>	The problem with your explanation is that it is totally your creation
>>>>>and not supported in any manner by the eyewitnesses.  
>>>
>>>
>>>>    The problem with your response is that the revisionist writer
>>>>Friedrich Berg has admitted that the delousing chambers at Auschwitz did
>>>>not have any high chimneys either. 
>>>
>>>	I speak for myself.  
>>>
>>>	Tell it to him.  
>
>>    Your physical evidence of chimneys on the delousing chambers?  None,
>>of course.
>
>	I have made no claims as to their being on delousing chambers.  But you
>know that.  

    I never said you had.  But you know that.

    How long do you want to keep up this stupid game of pretending I said
things I never said - including things you said things you never said
which I never said you said, and so on ad infinitum and ad nauseam?

    And then there is your stupid game of saying you never said things
which DejaNews shows you definitely said.  But you know that. 

    

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 20 12:21:40 PDT 1996
Article: 51666 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Just a few documented Moran lies
Date: 19 Jul 1996 14:13:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <4soj8i$5p2@access5.digex.net>
References: <31ea5cf3.8114509@news.pacificnet.net> <31ed03f6.6340047@news.pacificnet.net> <17JUL199620583830@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31ef83ed.665471@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31ef83ed.665471@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>	Anyway, here is a list of Moran's methods for revealing lies,
>contempt, corruption, baby talk, inconsistancies, goose stepping, etc.

    Baby talk?  You mean like Tommy Moran's "wee-wee" fixation of a few
months back?

    See for example:

http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10202467&search=thread
&threaded=1&NTL=1&server=dnserver.db96q1


>Moran's methods posted directly to alt.revisionism in lieu of just
>stating he has done so.

    Moran cuts things out of context, too.  That's dishonest and lacks
integrity, as Mr. Giwer will be happy to tell you.

    But all Moran has done here is give names of threads.  How does 
anyone know whether the thread proves little Tommy's claims if it is no
longer available on their server?


[snip]

>"Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky - Corrupt"

    Except that this really proved that it was little Tommy who was was
wacky and corrupt, as it turned out that he just didn't understand that
the "ref" was a separate thing from the file itself.  He kept clicking on
the "ref" and got (surprise) the bibliographic reference from which the
scanned image came. 

    Yet little Tommy still insists that this article proves something
about Nizkor, instead of proving something about Tom Moran.

    See:

http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3c4sbilo$o70@
access5.digex.net%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3


>	Maybe Mr.Mittleman will post his stuff instead of just claiming,
>boasting, alleging and asserting he has.

    Of course little Tommy has seen these many times before.  He just lies
and pretends he hasn't.

    If not otherwise specified, URLs referenced below are under: 

    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/


    How about little Tommy's insistence that Schindler's List was a flop?

    See: moran-schindler-faq


    How about little Tommy's claim that Israel is not big enough to fit
200,000,000 trees?  (He got his math very, very wrong.)

    See:
http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5807219&server=dnserver.db96q1


    How about little Tommy's claim that a Jewish group tried to get the
menorah declared a secular symbol?  Turns out that the group which made
that argument was the KKK.

    See: menora-faq


    How about little Tommy's lies about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

    See:
http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3c31a07671.3260787@
news.pacificnet.net%3e%232/2&server=dnserver.dbapr

    Also see:

http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=2010843&server=dnserver.db96q3    


    How about little Tommy's claim that Deborah Lipstadt said that the
tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof?

http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3cPine.A32.3.91.96030
7094528.105581D-100000@nevis.u.arizona.edu%3e&server=dnserver.db96q1
    

    How about little Tommy challenging Yale Edeiken to prove to courtroom
standards that Tommy was an antisemite, then running away when Yale made 
a serious proposal to do just that if Tommy would pay the costs if Yale 
succeeded?  Of course little Tommy the coward ran away, and little Tommy 
the liar pretends he was never answered.

    See: arbitration


    This is just a sample.

    Maybe little Tommy will stop lying and pretending these have not been 
posted many, many times before.

    Nah.  Little Tommy is a liar.  The documented proof listed above can
be found by anyone who knows how to use a Web browser.  (In other words,
not Tom Moran.)

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 20 14:45:18 PDT 1996
Article: 51683 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!pravda.aa.msen.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 17 Jul 1996 16:44:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4sjjbi$5va@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sfh09$q15@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4sg38j$3r@news.enter.net> <4si3a5$5d3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4si3a5$5d3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 16 Jul 1996 12:51:31 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>	The patterns of support among ethnic groups duirn the American 
>>Revolution has never been researched?  You're joking, aren't you
>>Matty-poo?  Do you ever visit a library?  Maybe you and L'il Tommy should 
>>go together on a joint venture of discovery.
>
>	Should you try it some day you might learn something.  
>
>	But then, enlighten me.  Just what immigration was their to the US 
>prior to the Revolution what was not from Britain?  

    Cute troll.

    None, of course, and none from Britain either.  How could anyone
immigrate into the US prior to the Revolution, given that by definition
the US did not exist at that time?

    At least I hope it's a troll.  Because if it's not, and the question
intended is the one properly phrased as, "What immigration was there to
the geographical area of the original thirteen states prior to the
Revolution which was not from Britain," then Yale Edeiken has already
named one very large group, and the average grade school child should know
about one other identifiable group.  A bright one would know of a third at
least.  If you really and truly are unable to think of them, Matt, then
you do not know what any literate person should know, _and_ you have no
critical thinking ability. 

    Here's a riddle: in one state, the second and third share the same
name even though they are two separate groups.

    Here's another riddle: even the British really consist of four
identifiable subgroups, some of whom would prefer to retain the subgroup
identity.

    And then there are other groups I could name.  But you should do your
own homework on this off-topic subject.  Did you remember what I said
about what you have to do to get people to stop calling you a lying troll?
Apparently not.

    Of course, if you would like to _get back on track_, perhaps you
should just drop this expose of your colossal ignorance and discuss, say,
the Goebbels diary entry.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 20 23:33:51 PDT 1996
Article: 51777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 21 Jul 1996 01:47:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 168
Message-ID: <4ssga9$prn@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org> <4si1ai$8ke@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4sj1ve$lv5@access5.digex.net> <4skae1$rf4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4skae1$rf4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 17 Jul 1996 11:47:58 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4si1ai$8ke@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:23:51 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>wrote:
>>>>The number of Treblinka victims is estimated at 700,000. Many
>>>>of them were children and infants.
>>>
>>>	I await YOUR calculations based upon the asumption of children.
>>>Certainly a person with a PhD in math can do that without cracking a
>>>calculator.  Why is it you are so reluctant to do that?
>>>
>>>I suggest you have already done the calculations and do not want to post
>>>the results.  
>>>
>>>	You know that it would not explain the lack of discovery.  
>
>>    The lack of concerted effort to go through the site and identify every
>>ash particle, every bone fragment, etc., however ....
>
>>    Perhaps you could post _your_ calculations of how much labor effort it
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>would take to recover and identify such remains from that volume of earth.
>>Then you might contemplate other possible theories to explain lack of
>>discovery of the requisite weight.
>
>	I have done so, everything but "showing the work" from grade school.  

    Umm, Matt?  WAKE UP, MATT!!!!

    I did not ask you for the quantity of bone fragments and ashes to be
found.

    I asked you for the amount of LABOR EFFORT needed to separate out the
ashes from the soil, weigh them, total it up, etc.  Look at the underlined
words from my post above, Matt.

    LEARN TO READ, MATT!!!

    Everything you posted below is _completely_ nonresponsive to my
question.

    YOO-HOO!  ARE WE KEEPING YOU AWAKE, MATT?

    Focus!  Concentrate!  Use those alleged 163 IQ points! 



>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:13:01 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>         I have posted the minimum volume and weight of such remains that need to
>>> be found to support 3 million.
>
>>Since they were murdered in several camps and the access to the majority
>>of the sites was restricted for over 40 years, the amount that was
>>detected was consistent, given the amount of sampling done, with the
>>numbers murdered.
>
>	Be the first to demonstrate such consistancy.  If you had been here long
>enough you would know that this is a very old assertion and no one here
>has been able to give even the slightest citation as to the such a thing
>having happened.  
>
>	As for being restricted, you mean restricted from western Europe.  The
>Poles are civilized people and would certainly have worked to recover
>their remains and given them a proper burial.  
>
>	Since you missed them ... here is a chance to see the volume and weight
>you have to find, more or less.  Dismissing the numbers by saying
>"children" is not acceptable.  Only a recalculation is acceptable.  I
>expect a real engineer to have higher standards than holohuggers.  
>
>========
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: How many tons of bone fragments?
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:58 GMT
>
>http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml
>
>Dec 26, 1995 @ 
>Q. What's left after a body is cremated? It's ash, but what size are the
>pieces? Are they fine, like
>dust, or larger? Can you still see pieces of bone or teeth?
>
>A. Tony, After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is
>very brittle bone fragments.
>Many of the bones are still distinguishable although not fully in tact.
>Technically, there are no
>ashes left at all but the term "ashes" is used to describe what is
>referred to as cremated remains
>or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into a fine
>powder and placed in
>the urn selected. What remains after the cremation process is
>approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of
>cremated remains.
>
>	800,000 at Treblinka x 5 lbs = 4,000,000 lbs = 2000 tons of bone
>fragments missing.  Buried in a 5 acre area.  400 tons of bone fragments
>per acre, approximately 15 pounds of bone fragments per square foot.  
>
>	1,200,000 at Auschwitz.  3000 tons of bone fragments capable of passing
>through a 1 centimeter mesh.  
>
>	My thank again to Van Alstine for this website.
>
>========
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: dem bones again
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT
>
>	You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
>Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  That was based upon the
>internet cremation society's statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
>remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
>the number.
>
>2-7-96 @ 
>Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has asked me to
>design and
>fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I have no idea where to start.Do
>you have design
>specifications? 
>
>A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
>the urn should have a
>capacity of at least 205 cubic inches. Beyond that requirement, any
>shape, size and design is
>acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.
>
>	Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.
>
>	This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to fine at
>Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz.  This latter
>is a cube 52 feet on a side.  On the other hand it would cover three
>acres about one foot deep.  However there a convenient river there that
>has never been probed.
>
>	So back to Treblinka.  There we have a 45 foot cube.  Thus we have
>enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
>bone fragments.  But of course they were buried so at some point coring
>would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.  
>
>	But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
>fragments.  So let me address that for our applied mathematician.  The
>false assumption is that 27 feet means anything.  He assumes that 27
>feet means distributed over the 27 foot core.  The fallacy of that
>assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.
>
>
>	If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
>these bone fragments.  
>
>	For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
>It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.  

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 09:07:32 PDT 1996
Article: 51783 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.walltech.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Ken McVay
Date: 21 Jul 1996 01:09:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4sse2o$out@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sna73$7s7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sna73$7s7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	If it was the real Ken McVay who called my parents to get my phone
>number, the one he left, 862-3905 did not come with the right area code.

    If it was not the real Ken McVay, it sure would be a good way for
somebody who doesn't like Ken to stir up trouble for him.  FWIW, unless it
has changed since he gave it to me, I have Ken's phone number, and
862-3905 isn't it. 


>	If you really want to talk, it is not hard to find my real phone number
>if you can master a browser.  


    If you really want to know who it was, it is not hard to contact the
phone company and report phone harrassment.  The police seem to be capable
of getting the ID of callers if the phones use modern digital switching
equipment.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 09:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 51797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hello fellow truthseekers!
Date: 19 Jul 1996 12:38:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4sodmd$sv@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
iznogod   wrote:
>	I hate to use this phrase but I've gotta 'come out of the closet' 
>of lies and deceits. I'm a die hard revisionist. I like the term 
>historical truthseeker better.

    Perhaps you could explain something to me.  Without even going into
the logically invalid arguments I've seen, in looking over revisionist
materials and doublechecking their claims - often just consisting of
comparing the alleged source material with what is claimed about it in the
reivisionist writing - I have found a large number of errors, deceptive
omissions, and gross distortions which, if the revisionist writer does not
suffer from complete functional illiteracy or clinical mental illness,
must be referred to as "lies."

    What kind of truthseeking is it that has to lie in order to expose the
truth?

>	I couldn't believe my eyes when I foudn out there's an 
>alt.revisionism newsgroup all this time!
>	But before I spill the beans I want to know whether most writers 
>are revisionism-bashers or revisionists par excellence.

    I am not a revisionism basher, just a dishonesty and illogic basher. 
If you can make your case based on legitimate evidence and intellectually
honest and consistent arguments, we'll get along just fine. 

    Posted and emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 09:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 51818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!news.clark.net!mr.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More goofy Nizkor stuff
Date: 21 Jul 1996 00:33:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4ssbtv$o7h@access5.digex.net>
References: <31f0cdf8.629056@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31f0cdf8.629056@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>		
>	Moran took a couple of minutes to check out and see what Nizkor
>was up to. There is always something goofy happening on Nizkor.

    Yes, it's all filed away in little Tommy's directory.  Little Tommy
does something goofy, it goes on Nizkor.

[snip]


>	Moran clicks up the first one, "'I demand the evidence'". It's
>some post by a Mr.Stein. This one goes back a number of months. He's
>rambling on about some trial he is going to have to prove Moran is
>"anti-Semitic". Moran recalled the event and spits out the popcorn so
>he won't gag on it. Mr.Stein never did present a case.

    Well, little Tommy coward, the problem is that we need a judge to hear
the case.  How can anyone present a case until there is a judge?  Yale
Edeiken proposed the American Arbitration association.  But they want
money for their time.  Yale proposed that the loser would pay.  But you
haven't agreed to that, little Tommy coward.  We're waiting.


>	Moran's memory really starts to click in when he clicks up the
>second one, "Born without a backbone". This one was by a Mr.Edeiken
>who interjected, into the announcement of the never-to-be trial of
>Moran by Mr.Stein,

    Actually, it was by Mr. Edeiken, in response to little Tommy coward's
challenge to prove the case.  But the only reason the case is never to be
is because little Tommy the coward ran away.


>that Moran should go down and turn himself in to
>some "arbitration" court for his "anti-Semitism".

    Say, little Tommy liar, why don't you give the URLs so people can see
for themselves what's on Nizkor?

    Is it because you know that if they saw what was there, they'd know
you were lying?

    Just go to Nizkor, fast track, people, m, moran.tom and look under
'arbitration'.  (This is for little Tommy's benefit, since he can't
understand that complicated URL stuff - he needs "clickable doodads.")


[snip]


>	Yup. Something goofy on every click in Nizkor.		   

    Yup.  A lie in every Moran post.  Sometimes more.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 13:05:56 PDT 1996
Article: 51834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just a few documented Moran lies
Date: 21 Jul 1996 01:33:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 131
Message-ID: <4ssfes$pgm@access5.digex.net>
References: <31ea5cf3.8114509@news.pacificnet.net> <31ef83ed.665471@news.pacificnet.net> <4soj8i$5p2@access5.digex.net> <31f0cda8.548535@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31f0cda8.548535@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <31ef83ed.665471@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran  wrote:
>>>	Anyway, here is a list of Moran's methods for revealing lies,
>>>contempt, corruption, baby talk, inconsistancies, goose stepping, etc.
>>
>>    Baby talk?  You mean like Tommy Moran's "wee-wee" fixation of a few
>>months back?
>>
>>    See for example:
>>
>>http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10202467&search=thread
>>&threaded=1&NTL=1&server=dnserver.db96q1
>>
>>
>>>Moran's methods posted directly to alt.revisionism in lieu of just
>>>stating he has done so.
>>
>>    Moran cuts things out of context, too.  That's dishonest and lacks
>>integrity, as Mr. Giwer will be happy to tell you.
>>
>>    But all Moran has done here is give names of threads.  How does 
>>anyone know whether the thread proves little Tommy's claims if it is no
>>longer available on their server?
>>
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>"Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky - Corrupt"
>>
>>    Except that this really proved that it was little Tommy who was was
>>wacky and corrupt, as it turned out that he just didn't understand that
>>the "ref" was a separate thing from the file itself.  He kept clicking on
>>the "ref" and got (surprise) the bibliographic reference from which the
>>scanned image came. 
>>
>>    Yet little Tommy still insists that this article proves something
>>about Nizkor, instead of proving something about Tom Moran.
>>
>>    See:
>>
>>http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3c4sbilo$o70@
>>access5.digex.net%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3
>>
>>
>>>	Maybe Mr.Mittleman will post his stuff instead of just claiming,
>>>boasting, alleging and asserting he has.
>>
>>    Of course little Tommy has seen these many times before.  He just lies
>>and pretends he hasn't.
>>
>>    If not otherwise specified, URLs referenced below are under: 
>>
>>    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom/
>>
>>
>>    How about little Tommy's insistence that Schindler's List was a flop?
>>
>>    See: moran-schindler-faq
>>
>>
>>    How about little Tommy's claim that Israel is not big enough to fit
>>200,000,000 trees?  (He got his math very, very wrong.)
>>
>>    See:
>>http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5807219&server=dnserver.db96q1
>>
>>
>>    How about little Tommy's claim that a Jewish group tried to get the
>>menorah declared a secular symbol?  Turns out that the group which made
>>that argument was the KKK.
>>
>>    See: menora-faq
>>
>>
>>    How about little Tommy's lies about the Dead Sea Scrolls?
>>
>>    See:
>>http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3c31a07671.3260787@
>>news.pacificnet.net%3e%232/2&server=dnserver.dbapr
>>
>>    Also see:
>>
>>http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=2010843&server=dnserver.db96q3    
>>
>>
>>    How about little Tommy's claim that Deborah Lipstadt said that the
>>tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof?
>>
>>http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3cPine.A32.3.91.96030
>>7094528.105581D-100000@nevis.u.arizona.edu%3e&server=dnserver.db96q1
>>    
>>
>>    How about little Tommy challenging Yale Edeiken to prove to courtroom
>>standards that Tommy was an antisemite, then running away when Yale made 
>>a serious proposal to do just that if Tommy would pay the costs if Yale 
>>succeeded?  Of course little Tommy the coward ran away, and little Tommy 
>>the liar pretends he was never answered.
>>
>>    See: arbitration
>>
>>
>>    This is just a sample.
>>
>>    Maybe little Tommy will stop lying and pretending these have not been 
>>posted many, many times before.
>>
>>    Nah.  Little Tommy is a liar.  The documented proof listed above can
>>be found by anyone who knows how to use a Web browser.  (In other words,
>>not Tom Moran.)
>>
>>-- 
>>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
>
>
>Here you go "iznogod". Notice the subject and the contents of the lead
>post here and notice what this person has to say.

    Notice that Tom Moran does not even try to chutzpah his way out of his
documented record of lies.

    Thanks for endorsing my post, Tommy.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 14:09:02 PDT 1996
Article: 51861 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: 21 Jul 1996 00:56:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <4ssd9e$on4@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4sq2j7$7f9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sq2j7$7f9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:18:54 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>(A photograph of the letter can be seen in
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/b/brack.victor/images)
>
>>Letter from SS-Oberfuehrer Brack to Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, June 23, 1942
>>[Documents on the Holocaust - Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot,
>>NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 272]
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Honorable Mr. Reichsfuehrer!
>

[...]

>>[...] Castration by means of X-rays, 
>>however, is not only relatively cheap, but can be carried out on
>>many thousands in a very short time. I believe that it has become
>>unimportant at the present time whether those affected will then
>>in the course of a few weeks or months realize by the effects that
>>they are castrated.

[snip]

>	Strangely, but not surprisingly, we know today that sterilization by
>radiation is one of the hardest things to do.

    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.

    Complain to Brack.


>	In reality, this reality not the holohugger reality, that it is harder
>to fry the genitals than the surrounding skin due to the dormancy factor
>of the sperm producing cells.


    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.

    Complain to Brack.


>	What this all means is that if X-Rays made anyone sterile in reality it
>also made the scrotal sac fall off and the knife would have been a
>better approach.  

    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.

    Complain to Brack.



>	But of course holohuggers are not in the least interested in reality.

    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.

    Complain to Brack.


>They have their fantasies which must be believed at all costs.   

    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.

    Complain to Brack.


>	Anyone interested in this need only look up radiology and health and
>find the section on the differential effects of radiation on active and
>dormant cells to confirm this.  But you never will.  You are all
>holohuggers.  

    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.

    Complain to Brack.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 17:07:37 PDT 1996
Article: 51874 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: 21 Jul 1996 10:14:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 118
Message-ID: <4ste0n$3p9@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4sq2j7$7f9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ssd9e$on4@access5.digex.net> <4sshda$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sshda$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 00:56:14 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4sq2j7$7f9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:18:54 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>(A photograph of the letter can be seen in
>>>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/b/brack.victor/images)
>>>
>>>>Letter from SS-Oberfuehrer Brack to Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, June 23, 1942
>>>>[Documents on the Holocaust - Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A. Margaliot,
>>>>NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 272]
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Honorable Mr. Reichsfuehrer!
>>>
>
>>[...]
>
>>>>[...] Castration by means of X-rays, 
>>>>however, is not only relatively cheap, but can be carried out on
>>>>many thousands in a very short time. I believe that it has become
>>>>unimportant at the present time whether those affected will then
>>>>in the course of a few weeks or months realize by the effects that
>>>>they are castrated.
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>	Strangely, but not surprisingly, we know today that sterilization by
>>>radiation is one of the hardest things to do.

    Works with fruit flies, no?


>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>
>	X-Rays are many decades older (1898?).  It was certainly known long
>before 1942.  
>
>>    Complain to Brack.
>
>	I would rather complain to those who believe this nonsense.  

    Fine.  That would be Brack.  What part of "complain to Brack" are you
having trouble understanding?


>>>	In reality, this reality not the holohugger reality, that it is harder
>>>to fry the genitals than the surrounding skin due to the dormancy factor
>>>of the sperm producing cells.
>
>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>
>>    Complain to Brack.
>
>	He reports FACT.  Obviously the fact is untrue, as in imagined,
>conjured, forged or subborned.  

    So Brack had quite an imagination.

    Complain to Brack.

    In the past week we've had postings about Lysenko and Soviet
"science."  Are you saying that since that was untrue, it was forged?
Only Soviets can believe in pseudoscience, not Nazis?  What?


>>>	What this all means is that if X-Rays made anyone sterile in reality it
>>>also made the scrotal sac fall off and the knife would have been a
>>>better approach.  
>
>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>
>>    Complain to Brack.
>
>>>	But of course holohuggers are not in the least interested in reality.
>
>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>
>>    Complain to Brack.
>
>
>>>They have their fantasies which must be believed at all costs.   
>
>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>
>>    Complain to Brack.
>
>
>>>	Anyone interested in this need only look up radiology and health and
>>>find the section on the differential effects of radiation on active and
>>>dormant cells to confirm this.  But you never will.  You are all
>>>holohuggers.  
>
>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>
>>    Complain to Brack.
>	
>	Your ignorance of science is overwhelming.  
>
>	That you do not realize how ignorant you are is merely amusing.  

    That you do not remember your previous citation of the Wannsee
Document as evidence that the plan was sterilization is also amusing.

    Where did I say what Brack proposed was accurate or practical?

    Nowhere of course.

    That you do not realize how completely dishonest and illiterate you
are is merely pathetic. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 17:07:39 PDT 1996
Article: 51882 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Ken McVay
Date: 21 Jul 1996 10:25:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4stekh$45l@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sna73$7s7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4sse2o$out@access5.digex.net> <4ssh4o$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ssh4o$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 01:09:44 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4sna73$7s7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>	If it was the real Ken McVay who called my parents to get my phone
>>>number, the one he left, 862-3905 did not come with the right area code.
>
>>    If it was not the real Ken McVay, it sure would be a good way for
>>somebody who doesn't like Ken to stir up trouble for him.  FWIW, unless it
>>has changed since he gave it to me, I have Ken's phone number, and
>>862-3905 isn't it. 
>
>	You prefer this?
>
>   1-604-382-0615

    Apparently the imposter could not even figure out to do a whois.



>>>	If you really want to talk, it is not hard to find my real phone number
>>>if you can master a browser.  

    Assuming you're telling the truth about all this, I would guess that's
exactly what the person who called did.

   Giwer, Matthias M...2400 xxx Ave APT xxx...Cincinnati, OH          
   452xx-xxxx                                            
   Phone: (513)662-xxxx

Does this match parts of an address you send Mother's Day cards to?  If
you want to know what commercial website completely unconnected with
Nizkor this came from and how to remove it, email me.  Oddly, your own
phone number is _not_ on this site.  If you want it to be there, it can be
added. 


>>    If you really want to know who it was, it is not hard to contact the
>>phone company and report phone harrassment.  The police seem to be capable
>>of getting the ID of callers if the phones use modern digital switching
>>equipment.
>
>
>	You should look into it some day.  

    How you and your parents choose to handle your problems is up to you. 
Did the caller even do anything besides ask for you and leave a phony
phone number?  If not, you don't even have a valid claim of harrassment.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 17:07:40 PDT 1996
Article: 51903 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Showerheads and such
Date: 21 Jul 1996 10:49:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <4stg20$57i@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sspct$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sspct$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>
>But were not showerheads found without connection to water?
>
>     This is an old one but very a very obvious one.  If lack of
>connection to water is evidence of a gas chamber then every
>abondoned builing in the world is a gas chamber.  Copper plumbing
>it the first thing to be stolen from such buildings.

    Matt, please pay attention.

    The problem is not just the lack of physical plumbing. 

    The problem is that despite the fact that we have the Bauleitung file
of the architectural plans, throughout all the revisions, not one of them
shows any plumbing for showers.  Other plumbing - for water taps - is
shown.  Yet shower plumbing is not. 

    Do thieves steal the ink showing the plans for the copper pipes as
well?

    Yet there is an inventory sheet, also from those Bauleitung files,
listing showerheads in a room whose architectural plans show no shower
plumbing.

    Can you find any abandoned building that has this problem with its
architectural plans?

    I have explained this before.

    Try to stay awake this time.


>     But you must remember that in the early days gas was
>supposed to have been introduced through these showerheads.  That
>story was dropped when evil revisionists such as myself pointed
>out the obvious.  But of course, I am an evil revisionist and
>they claim there was never a claim that gas was introduced
>through showerheads.

    Actually, I think that no eyewitness ever did say such a thing.  If
you can produce an example, please do so.

    I think this was a case of the gossip game, where the story got
mutated in the telling.

    Suppose I were to write:

    "The people went into the room expecting a shower.  But no water ever
came out of the showerheads.  Instead, the room was filled with deadly
gas."

    Nowhere in that text does it explicitly say that the gas came directly
out of the showerheads.  But someone could easily misread it that way.

    I have been through this before.  Are we keeping you awake, Matt?  Do
you suppose you could pay attention this time?


>     And should we go back a few years it was only evil
>revisionists who were denying the truth of gas introduction
>through showerheads.
>     It is an old story, nothing new to it.  The orthodox will
>deny there has ever been any change in the light of clear
>evidence that the story has changed.  According to them, the
>story has never changed.  Anyone who has been paying attention
>knows the story has changed.
>     These days the fake showerheads are merely deceptive
>decoration.  In the good old days they were the source of the
>gas.  That was before Zyklon-B was settled on as the source of
>the exterminating gas.  This is such an old story that that it
>was enshrined in the movie, Schinlder's List.

    Actually, this is an outright lie.  The only reference in the movie is
to people going into real showers.  Where does anything in the movie say
that gas was supposed to come directly out of the showerheads?  Nowhere of
course.


>                    * * * * *
>     In other cases the stories were simply forged by the same
>people.  This appears to be what happened in many of the
>extermination related cases.
>     But first let me point out that the Nuremberg War Crimes
>Tribunals were not something that one would want to run on court
>TV.

    Gee, are you saying the hours of videotape I recorded off Court TV
during the observance of the anniversary of the Nuremberg Trials are
forgeries?

    Once again you have inserted your foot into your mouth up to your
armpits.  Court TV presented hours of coverage - film clips, sound
recordings, and quite balanced commentary by modern legal scholars and
participants, including one of the German defense attorneys who was still
quite critical of the proceedings.

    Your ignorance is quite amusing.


>You would have expected accusers to have testified in court
>against the people on trial.  In fact it was quite common for the
>most damning "testimony" to consist of unsigned statements
>obtained by investigators.  At times they would be in a language
>the person did not speak or read.  At other times there would be
>statement at the end saying it had been read to him, confirming
>he could read it.

    Perhaps you could someday stop pretending that the Nuremberg IMT was
the only or even the main place that the gassing was established.

    But I suppose I should not expect either honesty or even a superficial
grasp of the facts from you.


>     In this context certain investigators were surprisingly
>productive in finding people who would say they had obvserved
>what would become part of today's extermination stories.  Forgery
>or at least serious coaching explains would easily explain the
>similarities.

    How shall we explain Mr. Giwer's writing as if he has not been told
before about the foundation of the claim about missing plumbing?  Bad
newsfeed, dishonesty, or early-onset Alzheimer's?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 17:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 51904 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blah-blah, Blaha
Date: 21 Jul 1996 12:02:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <4stkan$72e@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ssptk$ede@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ssptk$ede@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>Would you post ALL of Blaha's testimony for us?  Or, if you can't do that, 
>would you mind informing us of the volume and page numbers where one can 
>research his testimony?  Also, why was Blaha confined at Dachau?  Simply
>because he makes accusations does not mean that we ought to believe him-we 
>need physical proof as well.

How about these tidbits taken from an earlier post by Mark Van Alstine?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AMBASSADE DU CANADA                      CANADIAN EMBASSY
     PARIS              [Seal]              PARIS


                                27th April, 1945.

No. 548

Sir,

Will you please refer to my telegram No. 299, dated 24th
April, which relates to my visit to Buchenwald camp.

2. In company with eight members of the United States
Congress, I left London for Weimar on Sunday morning, the
22nd. April. The names of the Congressmen, and of the States
for which they sit, follow:

:
:
:

9. A lampshade was found - and this I saw - made from tattooed
human skin.

:
:
:

                        I have the honour to be,
                                Sir,
                        Your obedient servant,
                        [s/ Georges Vanier]
                        CANADIAN AMBASSADOR

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Source:http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?t/camps/buchenwald/diplomatic/georges-vanier.042745)


[Just in case you believe in the "goatskin" claim:]


And also the following US Army pathologist's report:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Seventh Medical Laboratory
  APO 403, c/o PK, New York, N.Y.
  Section of Pathology 

  25 May 1945


  SUBJECT:  Identification of Tattoed Skin Hides 

  TO     :  COMMANDING GENERAL, Third U. S. Army 
            (ATTN:   JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL) 


  1.  There were submitted to this laboratory section for 
  examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. GIVIN 
  from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of 
  Case 81 T.J.A. 

  2.  The description follows: 

  ......

  PIECE C:  Is truncated, measures 44 cm. at the base. The 
  upper portion is 30 cm. long and the sides measure 46 cm. 
  The skin is transparent, and shows two nipples in the upper 
  area. These are 16 cm. apart. From the nipple level to the 
  umbilicus is 23 1/2 cm.  ....

  MICROSCOPIC: The tissue consists of bundles of collagen 
  showing occasional epithelial and sweat gland remnants. 
  Granular black pigment granules are seen between some 
  of the bundles. 

  3.  Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three specimens 
  are tattooed human skin. 

  For the Commanding Officer, 
  
  (signature)
  REUBEN CARES 
  Major M.C. 
  Chief of Pathology 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Note: the document quoted above was supplied by Stephan Bruchfeld who
deserves the credit for a fine bit of research)



>As to Rascher's alleged remarks to a 
>British flier, this is hearsay and inadmissible.

    OK, how about Rascher's letter to the Reichsfu"hrer SS?


The following is a translation of a letter from the Bundesarchiv Koblenz.

This translation was taken from "Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945"
(ISBN 3-87490-528-4), p. 169; (Plate 356 with translation.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Sigmund Rascher                         Munich
                                            Trogertr. 56, August 9, 1942

Esteemed Reichsfuhrer!

 ......

As you know, the same installation as in Linz is to be built in Daschau.
As the "invalid transports" terminate in the special chambers anyway I
wondered if it would be possible to test the effects of our different
combat gases in these chambers using the persons who are destined for
these chambers anyway. The only reports which are available so far are of
experiments on animals or of accidents which occurred in the manufacture of
the gases. Because of this paragraph I am marking this letter "Secret".

 ......



-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 18:36:02 PDT 1996
Article: 51922 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer's Encouragements
Date: 21 Jul 1996 11:05:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4stgvu$5lk@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net>  <4srbr9$p8d@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4ssf0q$jum@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ssf0q$jum@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	The slimey bastard who harrassed my parents has asked for whatever
>happens to him.  

    Let us know when you find the identity of that person and can prove
it.  Anyone, after all, can place a phone call, say, "I am Ken McVay," and
leave a fake phone number.  But you know that.

    You have also not clearly identified what about the call was
harrassment.  Calling a wrong number (which, as I have posted elsewhere,
was probably obtained off the web from a commercial site) and leaving a
message is not harrassment per se.


>	He is obviously a holohugger.  No ethics at all.  That basest of
>creatures upon the face of the earth.  
>
>	The true incarnation of David Dahlman and Chuch Ferree in this disgrace
>to the OBC.  

    Perhaps you would like to provide some evidence to support your claim
that there really was a phone call and that it really came from Ken McVay,
not some impostor claiming to be Ken McVay.

    But why should this time be any different?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 18:36:03 PDT 1996
Article: 51925 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The value of eyewitnesses
Date: 21 Jul 1996 12:12:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4stkts$7am@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sstiu$406@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sstiu$406@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>      Something has recently been brought to my attention. The book 
>Remembering and Forgetting;  inquiries into the nature of memory by
>Edmund Blair Bolles, 1988, Walker Publishing Company. In particular
>Chapter 17, The Emotional Memory of John Dean. (For those who want to
>claim this is politics, this book is apolitical and this is simply
>an interesting test case.) 
>
>      For those who do not remember, John Dean was the most believed and 
>most quoted witness at the Watergate hearings. Most of the impressions
>people have today of Watergate come from his testimony. It was clear,
>direct and compelling. 
>
>      Years later when transcripts of the Nixon tapes were made public it 
>was taken as an opportunity to compare Dean's memories (which were down
>to which conversation on what day along with nearly verbatim recounting
>of the discussions) with the transcripts. 
>
>      The interesting thing is that not only was his testimony clear, direct 
>and compelling, it was nearly 90% wrong.

    The really interesting thing is that at that Dean was approximately 10
times as accurate as Matt Giwer.  I have tried comparing the contents of
the Nizkor and DejaNews archives to his claims of what was and wasn't
said.



>In comparing the two on one 
>meeting we have on page 250 of the paperback edition... 
>
>          "Of the twenty-six separate assertions in Dean's testimony, 
>fourteen have no historical  basis, seven are badly distorted, and two
>are completely false. That leaves three correct assertions..."
>
>      Perhaps some of us just might have a false impression of what happened 
>in absense of those tapes.  More interestingly, everyone who testified
>was dealing from memory (when they could "remember" anything) and that is
>what formed public opinion.  There is no reason to believe the others
>were any different. 

    Matt Giwer has told three mutually contradictory stories of who did
what and why concerning Rack Jite's web site on Volant Turnpike.  First it
was his complaint due to libel, then it was only Combase due to libel,
then it was him again due to copyright violation.  When he makes a claim
about what someone said, and fails to provide a checkable reference, there
is definitely no reason to believe him without outside confirmation. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 18:36:04 PDT 1996
Article: 51926 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More evidence of Giwer's Alzheimer's
Date: 21 Jul 1996 12:35:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <4stm93$7um@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4spvb8$cri@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 19 Jul 1996 17:36:21 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4sif8o$ahj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 16 Jul 1996 11:30:28 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>
>>[snip]
>>[reformatted:]
>
>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>   These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>   the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
>>   enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>   on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>
>>>>>>    Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?
>>>>>
>>>>>	Are you saying that the wire mesh induction columns have gone away?  
>>>
>>>>    They were present only in Kremas II and III.  As I said, you have
>>>>never figured out which buildings had which names and which features
>>>>because you neither understand nor remember what you read.  How can you
>>>>possibly be qualified to participate in the discussion if you cannot get
>>>>this right after months of reading in both this newsgroup and on Nizkor?
>>>
>>>In fact you were arguing that the "gassing design features" of the LK
>>>were improved in IV and V
>
>>    I never said such a thing.  Are you lying, or is this simply more
>>evidence that you have computer-like memory (i.e., 60 nanoseconds)? 
>
>	The refresh rate is there. but then how long is a nanosecond?  

    It depends on the transmission medium.  Somewhere packed away in a box
I do believe I have one given to me by Grace Hopper.

    I guess you're using DRAM.  When the power shuts down for the night
all contents of memory are lost.


>>>until I pointed out that a different building
>>>entirely was used in IV according to Nizkor.  
>
>>    Very good!  IV was a different building from II.  And II from III.
>>And V was a different building as well!  You're learning!
>
>>    As far as I can tell, everyone but you knew that IV was a different
>>building, Matt.
>
>	The are not not claimed by Nzkor to have been used at IV and V.  
>But you know that.  So what is your point?

    Um, The _what_ was not claimed to have been used at IV and V?



>>    Oh, by the way - I am talking about KREMAS II, III, IV, and V.  Now,
>>you may have been unable to figure out how LEICHENKELLER 1 and 2 fit into
>>all this.  Is that what's giving you problems - can't figure out when we
>>are talking about a _Leichenkeller_ number, and when we're talking about a
>>_Krema_ number?  I do wish you would learn to read, it would make life
>>easier. 
>
>>    Do you know where the Leichenkellers were?  Have you even managed to
>>learn that much in over six months?
>
>	I saw the images on Nizkor and posted them here with comment.  The
>undressing rooms of Kremas II and III  were used for gassing in Kremas
>IV and V

    Um, Matt?  Are you really saying that a room was moved from II to IV?


>as you konw from Nizkor.  All of those great designs in II and
>III and the improvements in IV and V were thrown away as a different
>building entirely was used in IV and V.

    Let's see if I've got this right, they threw away IV and V to use a
different IV and V?  Is this what you're saying here?


>	But you know all of this so why are you continuing this thread?  

    No, this is all new to me.  Really.  IV and V were not the same IV and
V but a different IV and V.  Simply amazing. 

    And I see you forgot the thermodynamics question.  Again.

    Are we keeping you awake here?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 21:09:23 PDT 1996
Article: 51952 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.unisys.com.br!rjo02.embratel.net.br!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Email 'bombings'?
Date: 18 Jul 1996 10:23:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4slhcd$gjb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s0hcj$o26@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s2eg3$o2m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <31E55CA8.6E85@gryn.org> <4s4pgu$bd9@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4s4pgu$bd9@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	I recount what has happened.  

    Yes, indeed - in the matter of Rack Jite's booting from Volant
Turnpike, three different times - with three mutually contradictory
stories about who did what and why!

    But I should not point such things out.  All of Mr. Giwer's true
truths are true, even when the contradict each other.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 21:09:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51960 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 21 Jul 1996 15:08:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4stv7e$bvt@access5.digex.net>
References:   <4somfl$8a0@access5.digex.net> <4spg9d$fd6@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4spg9d$fd6@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 19 Jul 1996 15:08:37 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>    I think for this discussion of color perception it would be
>>instructive to look at http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/sexist.html.
>>"People have a tendency to break out laughing when I identify colors. I
>>can see them all. I just see them differently."
>
>>    Yet Mr. Giwer pretends that a discrepancy between "mauve" and "blue" 
>>in two different witnesses' statements is significant, and that silica gel
>>NEVER looks mauve.
>
>>    Why can it not be that Dr. Nyiszli just sees colors differently?
>
>>    I have told Mr. Giwer what he needs to do to get people to stop
>>calling him a lying troll.  He is a very slow learner. 
>
>	That not the way it works.  It is simply different.  One would see 
>three distinctly different colors and in comparison identify them
>properly.  


    Then why do people laugh when you identify colors?  It sounds as if
you do not identify them properly.  So why do you take a possible shade
identification discrepancy as evidence?



>	You should have stayed awake in General Science class also.  

    Did.  You should have stayed awake in English class.

    You should also stay awake when writing your own material.  You might
not contradict yourself so much.  Would you like to try for a fourth true
truth about who did what regarding Rack Jite's web site and why?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 21:09:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51970 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 21 Jul 1996 17:10:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4su6c7$f8a@access5.digex.net>
References: <4si3a5$5d3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4sn6vv$qp8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <31F0033A.6CC4@unb.ca> <4spj6j$h7b@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4spj6j$h7b@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	The subject was "ethnic" contribution to the American revolution,

    Not exactly.  You've shifted the ground again.

    Try rather the contributions of members of ethnic groups (or alleged
lack thereof).

    For extra credit, try to figure out if we're talking about statistical
significance (relative to population) or "absolute" significance.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 21 22:22:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51988 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 21 Jul 1996 17:16:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4su6n9$fd7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sn762$qp8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4snvkl$prg@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4snvkl$prg@news.enter.net>,
Yale F. Edeiken  wrote:
>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  	We agree, the fools claiming there were "ethnic" contributions are
>>  fools.  
>
>	We are agreed that those who deny are ignorant of their own country's 
>history.

    Or they are trolls. 

    I believe Giwer is playing his juvenile trollish word games again,
holding that there was no Jewish contribution to the revolution, merely
contributions by Jews.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 02:16:28 PDT 1996
Article: 52011 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky - Corrupt
Date: 21 Jul 1996 16:58:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4su5mf$eq4@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sk76a$48k@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4snd8e$4gj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31EFC69D.3705@gryn.org> <4spnna$kc6@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4spnna$kc6@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 13:32:13 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>>Titles can't be copyrighted.
>
>>They can be trademarked - but not copyrighted.
>
>>What's difficult to understand about that?
>
>	Nothing is wrong with that at all save that he filed specifically on 
>the use of the title which he should have known.

    WAKE UP, MATT!  Alec said a title can be a trademark, but cannot be
copyrighted.  Lucas could file a trademark infringement case even on a
title.  Could you maybe learn to read some day?

    I can legally write a book called "Star Wars," or "For Whom the Bell
Tolls," or "Schindler's List."  That is not the same thing as marketing a
line of action figurines called "Star Wars Action Figures."




>	And the case was decided on the grounds that he had made no prior
>objection when it has been used by others.  
>
>	It is more likely he filed on grounds of joint copyright and trademark
>infringement.


    "More likely?"  In other words, you don't know the specifics of the
suit and you are making it up as you go.



>In any event he lost rights to the term, period, because
>he selectively objected to its use.    

    That could be a basis for losing a trademark.  Xerox, for example,
writes letters to editors when they see "Xerox" used as a verb.  They even
take out ads on the subject, all in order to avoid losing their copyright.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 02:16:29 PDT 1996
Article: 52012 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 21 Jul 1996 17:03:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4su5v1$f04@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sfh09$q15@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4si3a5$5d3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4sjjbi$5va@access5.digex.net> <4skamp$5gr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4skamp$5gr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 17 Jul 1996 16:44:34 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4si3a5$5d3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 16 Jul 1996 12:51:31 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>
>>>>	The patterns of support among ethnic groups duirn the American 
>>>>Revolution has never been researched?  You're joking, aren't you
>>>>Matty-poo?  Do you ever visit a library?  Maybe you and L'il Tommy should 
>>>>go together on a joint venture of discovery.
>>>
>>>	Should you try it some day you might learn something.  
>>>
>>>	But then, enlighten me.  Just what immigration was their to the US 
>>>prior to the Revolution what was not from Britain?  
>
>>    Cute troll.
>
>>    None, of course, and none from Britain either.  How could anyone
>>immigrate into the US prior to the Revolution, given that by definition
>>the US did not exist at that time?
>
>	Then what ethnic group studies do you think YFE is referring to?  

    The ones of immigration to the land area which would later become the
United States, of course.

    It was part of what you cut out of my post in responding.

    Did you always suffer from attention deficit disorder or was this a
recent development?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 02:40:35 PDT 1996
Article: 52053 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: 21 Jul 1996 20:51:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4sujae$nkn@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvsis$e4e@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4smtmc$l62@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <2af_9607190718@tor250.org> <4sp9ag$c71@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sp9ag$c71@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 19 Jul 96 06:57:00, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>><+[Khazars] [Thu 18 Jul 96 22:56][Fri 19 Jul 96 01:36][0]*>
>
>> >> Save that it was explicitly directed as a *RELIGIOUS* duty that
>> >> may be partaken by the convert - or stranger to the religion
>> >> who would wish to join. A stranger who simply passes thru would
>> >> be shown hospitality, but would not partake of the religious
>> >> component.
>
>> mnc>     Were that the case then the stranger could not be fed on
>> mnc> Passover as it was the only food that could be prepared on that
>> mnc> day.  As hospitality meant food and shelter leaving the person
>> mnc> unfed for a day is not nice.
>
>>Stay on this track just a little while, Matt.
>
>>There is a difference between the sacrificial ceremony and the food
>>offered.
>
>>You are, once again, making statements based on knowledge you don't
>>have.
>
>>Putting it bluntly, you're as ignorant as dirt here and proving it
>>to the peanut gallery.
>
>    Are you saying the law permits other than Passover food to be
>prepared on Passover?  

    Where did you get any silly idea to the contrary?  Even a Jew may eat
absolutely anything kosher as long as it isn't chometz.  The one thing the
non-Jew is not allowed to eat is the Passover sacrifice, the lamb.  You
want to gorge yourself on fruit, fish, matzoh, chicken, potatoes - all
permitted.  Want some cheese instead of a meat meal?  Sure!


>    Or is there a suggestion that a traveler is a more likely candidate
>for conversion than a neighbor?

    Matt, you've already admitted you haven't even bothered to read the
text.  Go remedy your ignorance - which means first taking reading
lessons, _then_ reading the text - and come back and talk when you have
some knowledge, not just your vapid opinionating. 


>	Does this make the Orthodox Hebrews and the Reformed Jews?  
>
>>So - back to the ORIGINAL track:
>
>>Conversion was part of the Hebrew religion and most definitely part
>>of the Judaic one - going back to Mosaic times or earlier.
>
>	At least you two are in agreement now on that point but hardly does that
>passage support it.  

    Since you have admitted you have not looked it up, how would you know?


>>Thus your bizarre claim that the few Khazars that retained ther
>>Judaism and migrated to Eastern Europe were not Jews because
>>conversion did not apply is as nonsensical as the rest of your troll
>>attempts.
>
>    It is interesting that the original post here was that they were
>lacking
>in a birth tradition.  What I added as I recall was that a claim of
>those converts to having a claim on Israel was as foolish as (something
>or other related to Rome.)

    You also recalled three mutually contradictory stories as to who did
what about Rack Jite and why.  Your recollections of what was said here by
anyone, including yourself, make John Dean look like archival tape.
Produce a DejaNews quote or don't even bother, as far as I'm concerned.

[remainder of attempt at obfuscation deleted]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 09:01:22 PDT 1996
Article: 52076 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 22 Jul 1996 00:33:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <4sv0b2$11m@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org> <4skae1$rf4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4ssga9$prn@access5.digex.net> <4ssj5p$ifp@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ssj5p$ifp@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 01:47:53 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4skae1$rf4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 17 Jul 1996 11:47:58 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4si1ai$8ke@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>>>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:23:51 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>The number of Treblinka victims is estimated at 700,000. Many
>>>>>>of them were children and infants.
>>>>>
>>>>>	I await YOUR calculations based upon the asumption of children.
>>>>>Certainly a person with a PhD in math can do that without cracking a
>>>>>calculator.  Why is it you are so reluctant to do that?
>>>>>
>>>>>I suggest you have already done the calculations and do not want to post
>>>>>the results.  
>>>>>
>>>>>	You know that it would not explain the lack of discovery.  
>>>
>>>>    The lack of concerted effort to go through the site and identify every
>>>>ash particle, every bone fragment, etc., however ....
>>>
>>>>    Perhaps you could post _your_ calculations of how much labor effort it
>>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>would take to recover and identify such remains from that volume of earth.
>>>>Then you might contemplate other possible theories to explain lack of
>>>>discovery of the requisite weight.
>>>
>>>	I have done so, everything but "showing the work" from grade school.  
>
>>    Umm, Matt?  WAKE UP, MATT!!!!
>
>>    I did not ask you for the quantity of bone fragments and ashes to be
>>found.
>
>>    I asked you for the amount of LABOR EFFORT needed to separate out the
>>ashes from the soil, weigh them, total it up, etc.  Look at the underlined
>>words from my post above, Matt.
>
>>    LEARN TO READ, MATT!!!
>
>>    Everything you posted below is _completely_ nonresponsive to my
>>question.
>
>>    YOO-HOO!  ARE WE KEEPING YOU AWAKE, MATT?
>
>>    Focus!  Concentrate!  Use those alleged 163 IQ points! 
>
>	I had assumed you were paying attention to what has been posted.  

    I am, much better than you.


>I have posted the amount needed fo to be found in the identified five acre 
>area at Treblinka where they were all supposed to be buried.  Not more
>than a couple months working with core samples and wash pans.  At Polish
>wages, $20,000 tops.

    Core samples?  This implies you do not demand the entire quantity be
found and totaled up, that you will accept statistical sampling.  Your
previous writings on the subject did not clearly indicate that.



>	I would have thought that obvious to anyone following the discussion.  

    Not to anyone reading your poorly-written postings. 


>I would appreciate it if in the future you would pay closer attention to 
>the developments on this conference so I do not have to backtrack for
>you.

    I would appreciate it if you would learn to express yourself in
coherent English and read same with comprehension.  Also remember what you
and others said.  Would you like to try for a fourth true truth about who
did what and why with regard to Rack Jite's web site?  You've told three
contradictory stories so far.

    And I never said that IV and V were design improvements over II and
III.

    You are not in a position to lecture anyone on paying attention.

    Speaking of which, and recalling the initial thrust of this thread,
what physical evidence have you consistently failed to present?

    Do you remember what this thread used to be about?  I do.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 09:01:24 PDT 1996
Article: 52118 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: 21 Jul 1996 20:26:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4suhs0$m8k@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvsis$e4e@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4s4eak$ijd@news.enter.net> <734_9607141737@tor250.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <734_9607141737@tor250.org>, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
><*[*] [*] [yawen@enter.net] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Khazars] [Thu 11 Jul 96 22:46][Sun 14 Jul 96 05:44][0]*>
>
> >> As you know there is no provision for conversion in Mosaic
> >> Law then
> yn> any
> >> and every one who "converted" in not a Jew by Mosaic Law.
>
>
> yn>     Funny.  The book of "Ruth" is in my copy of the scriptures.
> yn> Did someone rip it out of yours?
>
>Actually, the book of "Ruth" is apocryphal, created as a counter to
>Ezra's racist attempts at blocking conversions that were actually
>quite rampant at the time. It was used to show the value of of the
>converts to the community.
>
>Ezra lost that one (posthumously, actually) and conversions
>continued, including whole communities, such as the neighbouring
>Idumeans during the Hasmodean dynasty.

    Now, Yale and Alec, are you stringing Matt along?  Tsk, tsk. 

    As I'm sure you both know, there is indeed a provision for conversion
in Mosaic law.  Why not just hit Matt over the head with Deuteronomy
chapter 23 and be done with it? 

    His monumental ignorance is once more flapping in the breeze.  How
many times is that?  I've lost count. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 09:01:24 PDT 1996
Article: 52179 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NEW  RULES
Date: 22 Jul 1996 10:25:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4t031j$hlr@access5.digex.net>
References: <4svh07$nj@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4svh07$nj@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>
>Henceforeward anyone wishing to question what has been covered is to be 
>directed to archival sources.  
>
>This is very in accord with the jointly conspiratorial and libelou Nizkor
>Gang doing the same thing.

    As long as you give the URL, as I do, no problem.  However, I note
that all your references to DejaNews consist of a mere assertion that what
you claim is there, is.  That doesn't answer the mail, especially as I
know from searching that some of your claims were patently false - e.g.,
claims that regex was a search engine originated nowhere but in your
highly disordered mind. 

    So give the URL or give it up.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 09:01:25 PDT 1996
Article: 52182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: 22 Jul 1996 10:44:04 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4t043k$itl@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199608081023@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4suq4e$cn1@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4svivi$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4svivi$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 19:47:42 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
>(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>Glad you brought that up, Dr. Mittleman... the funding is not
>>handled through that address.. see
>>http://www.nizkor.org/funding.html for the correct Canadian
>>and American addresses for donations and receipts.
>
>>
>
>>-- 
>>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>>-----------------------| Prince Myshkin's Troll Bait Sold Here
>>                       |--------------------------------------
>>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
>
>But upon the last post on this subject, you do no have tax exempt status 
>and therefore such solicitation is criminal.

    Really?

    Please send me five dollars.

    When it arrives I will send you a receipt which you may use as
evidence that you have sent me five dollars should anyone ask. 

    Now, fool, please explain what is criminal about the above.  Give Yale
Edeiken a good laugh.  Or contact whatever authorities you think may have
jurisdiction over this supposed criminal act I have just committed and
give them a good laugh.


>	Or have you obtained tax exempt status?  

    Why not visit the site and read the fine HTML?  Cannot figure out how
to use a web browser?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 13:04:06 PDT 1996
Article: 52201 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Showerheads and such
Date: 22 Jul 1996 12:27:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4t0a61$ac8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sspct$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4stg20$57i@access5.digex.net> <4sv9t6$5q7@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sv9t6$5q7@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 10:49:36 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4sspct$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>
>>>But were not showerheads found without connection to water?
>>>
>>>     This is an old one but very a very obvious one.  If lack of
>>>connection to water is evidence of a gas chamber then every
>>>abondoned builing in the world is a gas chamber.  Copper plumbing
>>>it the first thing to be stolen from such buildings.
>
>>    Matt, please pay attention.
>
>>    The problem is not just the lack of physical plumbing. 
>
>>    The problem is that despite the fact that we have the Bauleitung file
>>of the architectural plans, throughout all the revisions, not one of them
>>shows any plumbing for showers.  Other plumbing - for water taps - is
>>shown.  Yet shower plumbing is not. 
>
>>    Do thieves steal the ink showing the plans for the copper pipes as
>>well?
>
>>    Yet there is an inventory sheet, also from those Bauleitung files,
>>listing showerheads in a room whose architectural plans show no shower
>>plumbing.
>
>>    Can you find any abandoned building that has this problem with its
>>architectural plans?
>
>>    I have explained this before.
>
>>    Try to stay awake this time.
>
>	You have tried before and you have failed as usual.  

    You have made unsupported assertion as usual.


> Yes, I can show you many of those particularly where showers were an
>afterthought.  Any building prior the 1940 in the US is most likely in
>that category.

    You are saying that showers were installed later with no plans, no
paperwork, no orders for the plumbing?

    That appears to be the situation you are suggesting for Birkenau.  Or
do you think you can find such things among the Bauleitung papers?  No
other revisionist has been able to do so. 


>Showers and in fact daily bathing did not come into
>fashion until the late 40s in the US.  Given the lack of sales of
>deodorants in Europe in the 60s that I am aware of it most likely caught
>on later if at all.  The US fetish with body odor is considered a
>worldwide joke. 

    Perhaps you could remedy your terminal ignorance and learn what the
"Sauna" was at Birkenau.  Or was that too a Soviet forgery?

    Are you consciously trying to be considered a worldwide joke?  You are
succeeding admirably. 


> Beyond that, even pointing to other plumbing in the drawings, totally
>unncessary plumbing, belies your claim regarding the purpose of the
>building.

    Not the whole building, just the one room.

    And the problem is, even adding showers still belies the supposed
purpose of that one room as given on the drawings, which was a morgue.

    The corpses are going to take showers?


> What is the value of any plumbing?

    Washing down the piss and crap on the floor comes to mind.

    But I am sorry.  I keep forgetting.  In the Giwer universe anything
not mentioned does not exist.  Since I have not mentioned that I have hair
I must be bald.  And what Giwer has not read has not been mentioned, even
if it has.  (Or even if he has read it, but dropped it from his highly
unreliable memory.) 


>Beyond that I doubt you have ever seen any drawings and expect some day 
>for you to admit as much.  

    I have seen some drawings in photographic reproduction.  You are the
principal person in this newsgroup who makes loud statements based on no
knowledge whatsoever.  Projecting your own intellectual inadequacies onto
others is merely another one of your intellectual inadequacies.

    I do not claim to have seen them all; I am relying on the work of
those who have gone through the files (Pressac and Van Pelt).  But then,
you make claims about what evidence is NOT present without having seen
them all or even relying on anyone who has, so clearly you cannot object
to what I am doing.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 13:04:06 PDT 1996
Article: 52212 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: 22 Jul 1996 10:56:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4t04qm$jgu@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199608081023@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sv92b$huv@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sv92b$huv@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 08:08 MST, 
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>>    

>
>>>	Should anyone be interested for any purpose whatsoever.  
>
>>    Thanks.  I was wondering where to send that Nizkor contribution cheque.
>	
>	It is called WHOIS you stupid shit.  If you do not like my making 
>it available raise hell with NIC for their making it available.

    Perhaps I should have posted your parents' full address and phone
number.  After all, it too is publicly available if you know the right web
site.  Would it bother you if I did that?  After all, it would not be my
fault since I am only making available what others have already made
available.

    For any purpose whatsoever.


[...]

>	Why do I always find myself among such ignorant amateurs?

    Stop looking in your bathroom mirror.  Still wondering about that
gopher mail from Israel, ignorant amateur?  It did not take root access
though you were ignorant enough to think so.


>But you can not send it there.  As last reported he has no tax exempt 
>status

    So you are saying that only what is reported here is true and remains
true until something different is reported here.


>and no contributions can be passed to a person without tax exempt
>status by any organization.  

    Somebody had better tell the Salvation Army that their soup kitchen is
illegal.  I seriously doubt those homeless people have tax-exempt status.

    If Matt would only get some facts before flapping his fingers he might
be able to make a contribution here.  But he'd be far less entertaining. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 13:04:07 PDT 1996
Article: 52214 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Ken McVay
Date: 22 Jul 1996 11:08:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4t05gq$kc7@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sna73$7s7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4ssh4o$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4stekh$45l@access5.digex.net> <4sv721$3l2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sv721$3l2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 10:25:21 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net 
>(Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>>>>	If you really want to talk, it is not hard to find my real phone 
>>>>>number if you can master a browser.  
>
>>    Assuming you're telling the truth about all this, I would guess that's
>>exactly what the person who called did.
>
>>   Giwer, Matthias M...2400 xxx Ave APT xxx...Cincinnati, OH          
>>   452xx-xxxx                                            
>>   Phone: (513)662-xxxx
>
>>Does this match parts of an address you send Mother's Day cards to?  If
>>you want to know what commercial website completely unconnected with
>>Nizkor this came from and how to remove it, email me.  Oddly, your own
>>phone number is _not_ on this site.  If you want it to be there, it can be
>>added. 
>
>	I said it was available on the web.  Search for it.

    Depends on what site you search.  The above information (unredacted,
of course) came up when I searched for Matt Giwer in a very logical place
to search for someone's phone number.

    I have no interest in calling you, however.


>>    How you and your parents choose to handle your problems is up to you. 
>>Did the caller even do anything besides ask for you and leave a phony
>>phone number?  If not, you don't even have a valid claim of harrassment.
>	
>The caller identified himself as Ken McVay.  Is that good enough for you?  

    So you are saying that the name "Ken McVay" is harrassment all by
itself?  Idiot.  Had you reported the caller as saying, "Ni!" you might
have a case.

    A case of what, I will not speculate on.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 13:04:08 PDT 1996
Article: 52234 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!sun4nl!wirehub!news.euro.net!venus.euro.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: 22 Jul 1996 15:06:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4t0jfl$n51@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvsis$e4e@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4sp9ag$c71@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4sujae$nkn@access5.digex.net> <4sve5e$abj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sve5e$abj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 20:51:26 -0400, 
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4sp9ag$c71@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>    Are you saying the law permits other than Passover food to be
>>>prepared on Passover?  
>
>>    Where did you get any silly idea to the contrary?  Even a Jew may eat
>>absolutely anything kosher as long as it isn't chometz.  The one thing the
>>non-Jew is not allowed to eat is the Passover sacrifice, the lamb.  You
>>want to gorge yourself on fruit, fish, matzoh, chicken, potatoes - all
>>permitted.  Want some cheese instead of a meat meal?  Sure!
>
>Excuse me but I was talking about the real Passover, not the post 1492 
>Passover fair.  When you learn something about it, get back to me.

    Excuse me, but I responded to the question you apparently asked.  You
asked if food other than Passover food could be prepared on Passover.  The
only special foods mentioned in the Torah are the lamb and the unleavened
bread.  There is nothing which says that you are not _also_ allowed to put
together and eat a fruit salad which has no special Passover significance,
either before or after 1492.  You really should stop trying to bluster
your way out of the holes you dig for yourself by expressing your
stupendous ignorance.

    If you were asking some other question, you did not express it at all
clearly.  When you learn how to use the English language, get back to me. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 13:04:09 PDT 1996
Article: 52238 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: auschwitz:myths and facts
Supersedes: <4t0fc6$keh@access5.digex.net>
Date: 22 Jul 1996 14:00:42 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <4t0fka$kjj@access5.digex.net>
References: <21JUL199621250929@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sv7j2$ov5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
>> 
>> > We also know (or at least it is extremely reasonable to deduce) that
>> > Hoess was referring to Belzac when "Wolzek" was written down.
>
>Good guess, but I'm afraid it's not very likely.  Hoess _lists_ the
>camps at least once, mentioning Belzec and Wolzek together.
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/hoess.rudolf/treblinka-wolzek
>
>> This transliteration error bit doesn't make sense to me.
>
>What does make sense is Mike Stein's theory that Wolzek is Sobibor.  The
>two are never given by Hoess together, in fact the word "Sobibor" does
>not occur in any of Hoess' statements of which I am aware.  Also, Hoess'
>description of the location of the supposed Wolzek camp fits nicely with
>the location of Sobibor.  Perhaps Mr. Stein could be convinced to repost
>his explanation (and Cc me in email so I can upload it to Nizkor).


    I too originally entertained the theory that it was a mishearing or
mispronunciation of Belzec.  That is not tenable, although not for the
reasons Ehrlich suggests - what counts is how Hoess the non-native-Polish
speaker would have pronounced Belzec, not how the Poles did.  However,
Hoess did say Wolzek;  he repeated it several times including in the same
list as Belzec.  So it was not a simple one-time mishearing on the part of
the interrogator or a one-time-only confused and/or mumbled repetition by
Hoess.

    So we have three possibilities:

        1) Hoess was told what to say by his captors, who made up a
           mythical camp "Wolzek."

	2) Hoess was tortured and just made something up to satisfy his
           captors.

        3) Hoess made a mistake about the name, but the camp exists.

    Number 1 makes little sense.  If there was some vast plot to frame the
Nazis, as so many "revisionists" claim, why weren't more Nazis tortured
into naming this same "Wolzek?"

    Number 2 is a possibility.  But so is number 3.  Let's see if we can 
locate "Wolzek" by following the clues Hoess left in his testimony.

    Hoess said it was "near Lublin."  At first blush that sounds like
Majdanek, which was not an extermination camp like Treblinka and Belzec. 
If this were all we had to go on, I would say it sounds like Hoess is
making something up.  However, the citation below gives some very
important additional clues. 


From:
 
"THE HOLOCAUST: Selected Documents in Eighteen Volumes"
  edited by John Mendelson,
  c. 1982 Garland Publishing
 
"Volume 12. The 'Final Solution' in the Extermination Camps and the Aftermath"
(pp. 56-127)
 
 "Testimony of Rudolf Hoess Taken at Nurnberg Germany on 1 April 1946.
 
   ...(page 75) ...
 
Q.   What were these extermination camps? Where were they, and what were
their names?
 
A.  There were three camps:  first Treblinka, Belzak (sic) near Lemberg
[Lvov] and the third one was 40 kilometers in the direction of Kulm
[Chelm].  It was past Kulm in an easterly direction." 

    Belzec is 85 km from Lvov.  So "near" is not all _that_ near.

    The other clue, a location relative to Chelm (67 km east-southeast of
Lublin by road) is very promising.

    The major camps were on rail lines.  There is a rail line going east 
out of Chelm.  Taking it due east 40 km puts one in the Ukraine, at 
Ljuboml.  No camp.

    However, the directions were a little more vague: "in an easterly 
direction."  A couple km east of Chelm, a track branches off to the 
north-northeast.  Approximately 40km from Chelm along that branch is a 
village slightly to the east of the track.

    Its name?  Sobibor.  About 100km from Lublin as the crow flies;  if
Hoess considered Belzec to be "near" Lvov at 85km, Sobibor could be 
called "near" Lublin.

    Now, according to the revisionists, Hoess is discredited because he
named an extermination camp which did not exist.  However, he gave
directions to this nonexistent camp which could lead one to a very real
extermination camp with a different name, a camp which others called an
extermination camp under its correct name.  Quite an amazing coincidence
for someone who was just making something up to satisfy the people
torturing him, I would say. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 16:24:39 PDT 1996
Article: 52290 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:12:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4t0ubu$4ln@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <:> <4spj6p$4rt@netnews.upenn.edu> <4sq0vt$c0r@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52290 alt.usenet.kooks:27309 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:246

In article <4sq0vt$c0r@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	I am here no matter how much you holohuggers harrass my family and my
>aged parents.  It is only the manner of retribution I take upon you
>folks for your actions that matters.  

    More pseudothreats.  Going to hold your breath until your face turns 
blue?

    Do you not realize how silly you look? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 18:36:07 PDT 1996
Article: 52296 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer admits he libeled Ken McVay
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:09:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4t0u6k$4gj@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4sut78$eos@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199621584882@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sve97$abj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sve97$abj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 21:58 MST, 
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

[snip]

>>    Troll.
>
>>    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
>>    is in causing fights. [...]


>Return-Path: 
>Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [198.7.0.33]) by
>ixmail1.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
>	id PAA27687; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 15:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: from fresh.dialup.access.net (fresh.dialup.access.net [166.84.193.136]) by
>mail2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with SMTP id SAA16768; Sun, 21 Jul 1996
>18:30:56 -0400 (EDT)
>Message-Id: <199607212230.SAA16768@mail2.panix.com>
>From: fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis)
>To: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>Subject: ATTENTION: An apology to Ken McVay and a clarification
>Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 00:38:47 GMT
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
>
>Dear readers:
>
>I've just returned from being away all weekend to find Matt Giwer is
>claiming that Mr. McVay harrassed his 80+ year old father on the
>telephone to give up Giwer's number, and is making veiled threats
>against Mr. McVay.
>
>I have a strange suspicion that the allegations being made by Matt
>Giwer against Ken McVay are, in fact,  *my* fault.

[...]


    Interesting.  In response to what he apparently calls a personal
attack, Mr. Giwer also launches what amounts to a personal attack on
himself, since it is clear evidence that he libeled Ken McVay by accusing
him of placing the phone call without any evidence other than the caller's
(now clearly false) self-identification.

    Will Mr. Giwer now spam his own post for this personal attack?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 18:36:08 PDT 1996
Article: 52297 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lamarck.sura.net!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer advances to the rear again
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:59:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <4t1158$75e@access5.digex.net>
References: <4spim1$9sg@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4susor$rjm@news.enter.net> <4svf8c$8a1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4svf8c$8a1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 22 Jul 1996 03:32:43 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>  On 19 Jul 1996 12:30:56 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>  
>>>  >	You are so ignorant that its amazing.  First of all the *Spanish* ruled 
>>>  >Lousiana in 1776.  
>>  
>>>  	That was not under discussion.  
>
>>	Your ignorance is under discussion.  That is part of it.
>
>	Nor was your bullshit.  
>
>>>  Second, French citizens of Lousiana served at the battle of 
>>>  >Baton Rouge, the battle of Mobile, and the battle of Pensacola.  French from 
>>>  >Louisana also served wilth Willets in his expedition.  Further French from what 
>>was 
>>>  >later determined to be Lousiana served with Clark in his campaigns.
>
>>>  	1812 not the Revolution. 
>
>>	No, asshole the Revolution.  To be specific the American Revolution.  
>>Since you are apparently unaware of your country's history why do you talk about 
>>it.  To be perfectly clear:
>
>>	Willett's expedition took place in 1777,  It was a failure but it was 
>>supported by the French planters.
>
>>	The battle of Baton Rouge (and the lesser battles of Manchac and 
>>Natchez) took place in 1779.
>
>>	The battle of Mobile took place in 1780.
>
>>	The seige of Pensacola took place in 1781.
>
>>	The campaigns of George Rogers Clark took place in 1777 through 
>>1781.
>
>>	Please tell me which of this activities, all of which had a significant 
>>impact on American history took place during the War of 1812.  Perhaps you will 
>>be willing to correct the history books that tell us otherwise.
>
>>>  	You are getting desperate.  
>
>>	I am desperate only to find a period of American history in which your 
>>ignorance is not laughable.  Don't you know that people who are no citizens of 
>>the United States are reading your silliness and laughing at you?  You are an 
>>embarrassment.
>
>
>	And all of your dates leave us a long way from prior to 1776.  

    This is worthy of Tom Moran.

    The question was contributions to the revolution by members of various
ethnic groups - as we think of them today.  Your pretense that the fact
that "ethnic group" is a recent concept changes reality is amusing.
The definition can be applied regardless of whether the people at the time
would understand the term.  Do you believe supernovas did not exist until
they were named by astronomers?

    Since the Revolutionary War began in 1776 and Cornwallis did not
surrender at Yorktown until 1781, that is a legitimate time frame for
discussing the contributions to the revolution. 

    As Alec says, when getting creamed you try to pretend the issue was
something else - ground shifting. 

    How juvenile.

>One would think that an American would have better sense than to lie 
>about the history of his own country.

    One would think that Matt Giwer would have better sense than to lie
about the history of discussions on this newsgroup.


>	Why are you trying to sound like a Canadian ignoramous?  

    Give it up, Matt.  Your stupidity is clear to all here and your
pretense that you have not been trounced only makes you look even more
childish. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 18:36:08 PDT 1996
Article: 52307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The value of eyewitnesses
Date: 22 Jul 1996 16:51:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4t0pki$fl@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sstiu$406@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4stkts$7am@access5.digex.net> <4sva5t$5q7@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sva5t$5q7@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 12:12:44 -0400, 
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>    The really interesting thing is that at that Dean was approximately 10
>>times as accurate as Matt Giwer.  I have tried comparing the contents of
>>the Nizkor and DejaNews archives to his claims of what was and wasn't
>>said.
>
>	That is a lie.  You have done no such thing.  

    I wish you much luck proving that statement, especially since
the results of four of those comparisons can be found at:


http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%
3c4rtvtq$gdh@access5.digex.net%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3

    (Who did what and why regarding Rack Jite.)


http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=
%3c4q4t5h$9q5@access5.digex.net%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3

    (Who posted the Wannsee Protocol in German and in response to what.)


http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=2182690&server=
dnserver.db96q3

    (Whether anyone ever claimed regex was a search engine.)


http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=
%3c4qtbo8$gu6@access1.digex.net%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3

    (Whether Mr. Giwer ever made a claim that 30,000 kilocalories
were needed to boil off the water in igniting a body for cremation.)

    How could I have written those articles without making the comparison? 

    Or are you dishonestly pretending that I claimed to have compared
_every_ one of your claims?  Anyone who is honest and literate would know
that this is not what I meant.  Of course you are neither honest nor
literate, so you will never admit this.


    I have told Matt Giwer what he needs to do to stop being called a 
lying troll.

    The boy just doesn't listen.

    Or maybe he can't read.

    Or maybe he can't remember.

    Or maybe all of the above.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 19:58:41 PDT 1996
Article: 52320 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 22 Jul 1996 17:41:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <4t0si9$37p@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org> <4ssj5p$ifp@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4sv0b2$11m@access5.digex.net> <4svdpu$5rf@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4svdpu$5rf@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 22 Jul 1996 00:33:38 -0400, 
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>    Core samples?  This implies you do not demand the entire quantity be
>>found and totaled up, that you will accept statistical sampling.  Your
>>previous writings on the subject did not clearly indicate that.
>
>	The previous posts on this matter indicated that less than half the 
>samples from the identified five acre burial area had something of
>interest but that there was no forecsic followup on what was found.  
>
>	Get back to me after you pretend to read Deja-News again.

    Hold on.  Ok, I'm back.  You are confusing the work at Auschwitz and
the work at Treblinka. 

    Again.

    Search alt.revisionism for keywords core, sample, Treblinka and see
what turns up.  Then search on Hydrokop in posts by John Morris.  Hydrokop
did the core sampling - at Birkenau.  We were talking about Treblinka in
the past few posts.  Call up the thread and see - you do know how to do
that, do you not? 

    WAKE UP, MATT!  PAY ATTENTION!

    You truly do not understand how much better my memory and search
skills are than yours, do you?  I can nail you with a DejaNews search in
under three minutes if the network isn't clogged.


>	I thought you said you were paying attention?  

    Get back to me when you do the search above and learn that you have
put your foot in your mouth yet again. 

    Or surprise us all and produce a documented citation that supports
your claim.


>>>	I would have thought that obvious to anyone following the discussion.  
>
>>    Not to anyone reading your poorly-written postings. 
>	
>	Does the quality of writing matter to the truth?

    If you make a claim which is false according to the most natural
interpretation of the words used, it certainly does make a difference to
the apparent truth of your posting.  It is also dishonest of you to write
poorly and then accuse someone of lying for interpreting your post
incorrectly.


>Why do you children continue to think this is a condemnation?  When the
>lurkers can read clearly, whose credibility
>do you think you are compromising?  

    Claiming telepathic powers again, I see.
    

>	Do you really think such childish insults are of interest to me?

    Who do you think is interested in your childish insults?


>>>I would appreciate it if in the future you would pay closer attention to 
>>>the developments on this conference so I do not have to backtrack for
>>>you.
>
>>    I would appreciate it if you would learn to express yourself in
>>coherent English and read same with comprehension.  Also remember what you
>>and others said.  Would you like to try for a fourth true truth about who
>>did what and why with regard to Rack Jite's web site?  You've told three
>>contradictory stories so far.
>
>>    And I never said that IV and V were design improvements over II and
>>III.
>
>>    You are not in a position to lecture anyone on paying attention.
>
>>    Speaking of which, and recalling the initial thrust of this thread,
>>what physical evidence have you consistently failed to present?
>
>>    Do you remember what this thread used to be about?  I do.
>
>	If you remember, you will lie about what you remember.  You are a 
>holohugger.  You are therefore a liar.  

    You are free at any time to try produce some evidence to support this
assertion that I am a liar. 

    You have yet to do so.  Do you really think the lurkers do not notice
the glaring omission?

    I have repeatedly produced precise quotes and DejaNews URLs to prove
that you are a liar.  Do you really think people do not notice the
difference between your empty assertions and my documented facts?


    You said you could reconstruct what happened at Dresden going by the
physical evidence without depending on eyewitness testimony.  There is
some critical physical evidence you have consistently failed to produce.

    Want a towel to wipe the cider from your eye, Dresdenhugger?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 22 22:33:29 PDT 1996
Article: 52323 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:23:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4t0v11$5mn@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s5qon$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80312 alt.revisionism:52323 talk.politics.european-union:5015

In article ,
Martin Paegert  wrote:
>Annotation: In several gas chambers the pellets were not thrown into the
>gassing-room, but into an evaporator and just the HCN-gas was lead to the
>room by shower-heads. In this case it is even more simple: just close a
>valve. Lueftl does mention it later on, we will meet it again in the next
>cite.

    One small correction: the chambers had fake showerheads, to fool the
victims, but the gas did not come out of them.  In Birkenau Kremas II and
III there was a separate wire-mesh device to hold the pellets and increase
the exposed surface area; this was protected inside a perforated sheet
metal column.  In the others the Zyklon was either thrown in from holes in
the roof or slots on the side.

    I have never seen an eyewitness claim that the gas came out of the
showerheads;  this seems to have been an accumulation of
misinterpretation.  But of course the Holocaust deniers pretend that a
journalist misinterpreting a historian is equivalent to an eyewitness
account.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Jul 22 22:33:30 PDT 1996
Article: 52342 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More evidence of Giwer's Alzheimer's
Date: 22 Jul 1996 22:56:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4t1f0d$6mk@access1.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4spvb8$cri@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4stm93$7um@access5.digex.net> <4sv7cl$3l2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4sv7cl$3l2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 12:35:47 -0400, 
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4spvb8$cri@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 19 Jul 1996 17:36:21 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4sif8o$ahj@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>>>On 16 Jul 1996 11:30:28 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>[snip]
>>>>[reformatted:]
>>>
>>>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>>>
>>>>   These pellets might have hit the naked prisoners on the way down to
>>>>   the cold flor but I don't think that they might have been long
>>>>   enough in contact with the alleged human bodies to have an influence
>>>>   on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>>>
>>>>>>>>    Or do you wish to defend this view of thermodynamics?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>	Are you saying that the wire mesh induction columns have gone away?  
>>>>>
>>>>>>    They were present only in Kremas II and III.  As I said, you have
>>>>>>never figured out which buildings had which names and which features
>>>>>>because you neither understand nor remember what you read.  How can you
>>>>>>possibly be qualified to participate in the discussion if you cannot get
>>>>>>this right after months of reading in both this newsgroup and on Nizkor?
>>>>>
>>>>>In fact you were arguing that the "gassing design features" of the LK
>>>>>were improved in IV and V
>>>
>>>>    I never said such a thing.  Are you lying, or is this simply more
>>>>evidence that you have computer-like memory (i.e., 60 nanoseconds)? 
>>>
>>>	The refresh rate is there. but then how long is a nanosecond?  
>
>>    It depends on the transmission medium.  Somewhere packed away in a box
>>I do believe I have one given to me by Grace Hopper.
>
>	Have you ever met her as I have?  

    I met her.  Whether I met her as you have is another question.


>>    I guess you're using DRAM.  When the power shuts down for the night
>>all contents of memory are lost.
>
>	A nanosecond is about as long as your screen is wide.  

    Not this screen.


    Well, Matt, I'm _so_ glad to see you're keeping on track. 

    Care to answer any of the issues still open on this thread?
Thermodynamics?  Which buildings had what features?

    Any of the other balls you've dropped in other threads?  Cremation
energy? Diesel exhaust? 

    When all else fails, silently cut text out of the post and change the
subject.  Typical Dresdenhugger.  But that's the best a 163 IQ type can
do, I guess.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 07:04:55 PDT 1996
Article: 52357 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: NEW  RULES
Supersedes: <4t031j$hlr@access5.digex.net>
Date: 22 Jul 1996 10:29:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4t038k$i09@access5.digex.net>
References: <4svh07$nj@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4svh07$nj@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>
>Henceforeward anyone wishing to question what has been covered is to be 
>directed to archival sources.  
>
>This is very in accord with the jointly conspiratorial and libelou Nizkor
>Gang doing the same thing.

    As long as you give the URL, as I do, no problem.  However, I note
that all your references to DejaNews consist of a mere assertion that what
you claim is there, is.  That doesn't answer the mail, especially as I
know from searching that some of your claims were patently false - e.g.,
claims that regex was a search engine originated nowhere but in your
highly disordered mind. 

    So give the URL or give it up.  (A sufficiently restrictive search
path - e.g., "Filter on 'mgiwer@ix.netcom.com' and search for the words
'libelou Nizkor gang'" - is also acceptable.  By "sufficiently
restrictive" I mean that it brings up more articles that support your
position than articles which do not have anything to do with the issue.)
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 07:04:56 PDT 1996
Article: 52369 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!tahiti.netreach.net!news1.digex.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Giwer Digs itself in deeper
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 22 Jul 1996 12:35:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <4t0ak5$fu2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net> <4sscj0$t1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom  <4svcmj$5rf@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:36871 alt.politics.nationalism.white:25965 alt.revisionism:52369 alt.skinheads:32556 alt.usenet.kooks:27334 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:261

In article <4svcmj$5rf@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 13:59:09, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
>
>>In article <4sscj0$t1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>
>>>>>If I have to spell it out further, unspecified penalities will be
>>>>>invoked.  
>
>>>>>        I hope this is clear.  
>
>
>>>>Hee hee heee.
>
>>>>Sue and be damned.  
>
>>>>Pretty, pretty please.
>
>>>        This time I said nothing about suing.  
>>>        
>
>>I know, and that's what got you in trouble.  You've the right to sue -- 
>>although you've got to be prepared for the penalties of your frivolous 
>>lawsuit -- but you don't have the right to make implicit threats  of
>>violence.
>
>>Now, have you?  
>
>>I'll leave the answering of that question to Netcom, and to the cops, and 
>>perhaps to your local authorities.  You can talk it over with them.  
>
>>Enjoy.  
>
>	You are rather insane to read what is not there.

    So is Mr. Giwer rather insane?  You be the judge.  Once again, a trip
to the DejaNews archives reveals that Mr. Giwer is slightly inconsistent -
this time, on the subject of how to interpret text for threats....



 Subject:      Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
 From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
 Date:         1996/04/27
 Message-Id:   <4lu8k9$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
 References:   <4l8u4i$ev@wave.rio.com> 
		<3179f0df.6747453@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
 		<4lh55a$k3m@wave.rio.com>
		<4lh7eg$15f@wi.combase.com>
		<4lo3to$qpc@access5.digex.net>
 Organization: images incarnate
 X-Netcom-Date: Sat Apr 27  5:55:05 PM CDT 1996
 Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4lh7eg$15f@wi.combase.com>, 
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>>>Bothered? Not at all. But I'm learning from you, pal. I don't make
>>>threats by the way. But there's this war buddy of mine in Chicago who
>>>likes to break knee caps. He just likes to do it. I think he's a
>>>nutcase, but he just likes to do stuff like that.
>>
>>      You are very silly to think that phrasing makes it not a threat.

>    I happen to agree, but it must be kept in mind that one man's threat
>is another man's just saying what would turn on a paranoid.  Isn't that
>all you say that you do, Mr. Giwer?  Yet some people have seen threats in
>what you say.  Were they paranoid or were you silly for thinking your
>phrasing made your words something other than a threat?  Who decides such
>questions?

        You would have to first believe I care whether or not the threat
is serious.  In one case the threat is silly, in the other he has
a dead friend and both a conspiracy and a felony murder charge
against him.  And at this point, should even lightning strike me,
he will be having a serious talk with his local gendarmes.  That
is why such things are very, very silly to say in public.



http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1477223&server=dnserver.dbapr

    I note in passing that Mr. Giwer makes claims about what was said in
this newsgroup, but he never seems to be able to back them up with a quote
or the DejaNews URL.  Now, why do you suppose that could be? 


    Anyway, at this point, should even lightning strike Ken McVay, by his
own account Mr. Giwer will be having a serious talk with his local
gendarmes.  He has said some very, very silly things in public. 

    Actually, perhaps it is more relevant to ask if anyone remembers 
anything he's said which is _not_ silly?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 07:04:57 PDT 1996
Article: 52373 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Netcom, and defamatory libel
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:02:23 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4t0tpf$45r@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4stlni$uqb@netnews.upenn.edu> <4suife$b52@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4suvak$4gd@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4suvak$4gd@Networking.Stanford.EDU>,
Rich Graves  wrote:
>Posted to alt.revisionism and Cc'd to Silke FYI, cuz I see no reason to
>further pollute s.c.german. Sorry, Ken, we don't carry
>alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, and I think this is worth responding to. 
>
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>>That is what Mr. Giwer _does_ - mouth off without doing his homework, as 
>>illustrated by his most recent libel, wherein he asserted, as a fact, 
>>that I had harrassed his parents.
>
>This is true (er, the part about Giwer lying -- i.e., Ken is 100%
>correct).
>
>>I was criticized today by someone I respect. He did not like my decision 
>>to advise Netcom - Mr. Giwer's service provider - that one of their users 
>>had made false statements - libel - regarding me, and that I would hold 
>>Netcom libel if they permitted this libel to continue, now that they 
>>were aware of it. He said, in fact, that I was being ridiculous.  I 
>
>I plead guilty to having Ken's respect (which means a lot). I concede that
>the word "ridiculous" is a bit strong, coming as it did in haste -- as did
>Ken's original message to Netcom, I'm sure, which explains the two typos. 
>But I'd still use the words "wrong" and "counterproductive." Fine, go
>after Giwer if you think it will help, but not Netcom. They're just a data
>("data") pipe. 
>
>>And now Netcom knows, too, that this user will commit libel at the drop 
>>of a hat, without evidence that would even make it into a courtroom, let 
>>alone be heard. And now that Netcom knows that - and knows that proving
>>it is childplay, I expect them to have a chat with Mr. Giwer, and tell 
>>him, in no uncertain terms, that he cannot use their equipment to commit 
>>libel with impunity. 
>
>Unfortunately, without a legal determination, I don't think you can expect
>Netcom to do this.

    I happen to agree, but I do think it is worth mentioning that Mr. 
Giwer himself expected Volant Turnpike to take action against one of their
users without a legal determination of the libel that Mr. Giwer alleged.
(It should also be kept in mind that he has told three contradictory
stories about who complained to Volant Turnpike and for what reason.)

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 07:04:58 PDT 1996
Article: 52399 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Netcom, and defamatory libel
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:05:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4t0tuu$4an@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4stlni$uqb@netnews.upenn.edu> <4suife$b52@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4svk1j$p1f@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4svk1j$p1f@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:

[snip]

>    Congress Searches for Foreign Aid. When a congressional 
>committee began to investigate the possibility of foreign aid in 
>the war against Great Britain, France expressed interest.

    So you now admit there was a French contribution to the revolution. 
Very good.  We are making progress.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 07:04:58 PDT 1996
Article: 52454 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Aaaw... suit
Date: 22 Jul 1996 17:47:33 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4t0stl$3kv@access5.digex.net>
References: <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sndi5$4gj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <31F3844F.7B31@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31F3844F.7B31@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>One of Matt's deep dark secrets is that he's been banned for
>deliberately doing things to get himself banned after he started losing
>his arguments.

    Not too much unlike somebody forging posts attacking himself, is it?


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 09:39:51 PDT 1996
Article: 52473 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer has definitely lost it.
Date: 23 Jul 1996 01:08:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4t1mo1$m0g@access5.digex.net>
References: <31F3DF1D.1AE0@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31F3DF1D.1AE0@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>Well - to those that I made my prediction to in Email:
>
>Has he lost it or not?
>
>Is my timing online or not?

    You seem to be a week ahead of schedule.


>Matt wants to declare the topics of alt.revisionism closed because he's
>lost every argument, has had his nose rubbed into the fact that it
>actually happened - complete with the mass gassings - and has been shown
>repeatedly that he can't even do basic logic or science.

    Not even basic reading.


>Don't pity Matt, although he is pitiable, because pity is a terrible and
>demeaning thing. 
>
>He refuses to admit that he can't have what he most desperately wants -
>to win at an argument thru superior ability. 

    I noted some time ago that his constant lying is an admission that he
cannot win an argument legitimately.


>His actions are predictable.
>
>His skills, I regret to say, are miniscule to marginal.
>
>I truly regret it, because there is no effort required for handling him
>- only a willingness to be patient with his nonsense and keeping him on
>the same track.
>
>Others have learned this, so he'll slowly find his efforts at avoiding
>the consequences of his statements less and less effective.
>
>His latest attempt at evading reality, by declaring his loss a win,

    Well, but can you blame him?  It worked for Nixon in Vietnam, didn't
it?


>should be ignored. Get him on track and require that he finish his
>vegetables - er - sequence.
>
>Perhaps he'll learn to maintain a track long enough to conclude what a
>silly little boy he's being for a purportedly grown man.
>
>This NG may be just what he's always avoided - and always needed.
>
>Only time will tell.

    Indeed.  There is no moderator to boot him out and give him the
ability to rationalize that he would have won if only he hadn't been
censored by some narrow-minded creep.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 11:29:15 PDT 1996
Article: 52510 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!mhv.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Supersedes: <4t1qv2$mt9@access5.digex.net>
Date: 23 Jul 1996 02:41:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 183
Message-ID: <4t1s6f$n70@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4sshda$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ste0n$3p9@access5.digex.net> <4sv84o$1us@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sv84o$1us@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 10:14:47 -0400, 
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

[1942 letter from Brack to Himmler, proposing sterilization by X-ray
snipped]


>>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>>	Strangely, but not surprisingly, we know today that sterilization by
>>>>>radiation is one of the hardest things to do.
>
>>    Works with fruit flies, no?
>
>
>>>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>>>
>>>	X-Rays are many decades older (1898?).  It was certainly known long
>>>before 1942.  

    Handwaving.  Note the lack of any evidence.

    Who makes the claim bears the burden of proof.



>>>>    Complain to Brack.
>>>
>>>	I would rather complain to those who believe this nonsense.  
>
>>    Fine.  That would be Brack.  What part of "complain to Brack" are you
>>having trouble understanding?
>
>
>>>>>	In reality, this reality not the holohugger reality, that it is harder
>>>>>to fry the genitals than the surrounding skin due to the dormancy factor
>>>>>of the sperm producing cells.
>>>
>>>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>>>
>>>>    Complain to Brack.
>>>
>>>	He reports FACT.  Obviously the fact is untrue, as in imagined,
>>>conjured, forged or subborned.  
>
>>    So Brack had quite an imagination.
>
>>    Complain to Brack.
>
>>    In the past week we've had postings about Lysenko and Soviet
>>"science."  Are you saying that since that was untrue, it was forged?
>>Only Soviets can believe in pseudoscience, not Nazis?  What?
>
>	It is good to see that at least on holohugger completely rejects the 
>"testimony" of Brack.  

    You have it wrong AGAIN.  It is not testimony, it is a LETTER from
Brack to Himmler.  Physical evidence.

    But as Danny Keren has now posted the 1944 letter from Blankenburg to
Himmler, _other Nazi scientists_ also rejected Brack's proposal for
_exactly_ the same reasons you have stated. 


>>>>>	What this all means is that if X-Rays made anyone sterile in reality 
>>>>>it also made the scrotal sac fall off and the knife would have been a
>>>>>better approach.  

    EXACTLY what Blankenburg said to Himmler in 1944!


>>>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>>>
>>>>    Complain to Brack.
>>>
>>>>>	But of course holohuggers are not in the least interested in reality.
>>>
>>>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>>>
>>>>    Complain to Brack.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>They have their fantasies which must be believed at all costs.   
>>>
>>>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>>>
>>>>    Complain to Brack.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>	Anyone interested in this need only look up radiology and health and
>>>>>find the section on the differential effects of radiation on active and
>>>>>dormant cells to confirm this.

    EXACTLY what Blankenburg said to Himmler in 1944!


>>>>>But you never will.  You are all holohuggers.

    We were all waiting for you to stick your foot into your mouth up to
the armpits yet again.  You have performed exactly as expected.

    
>>>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>>>
>>>>    Complain to Brack.
>>>	
>>>	Your ignorance of science is overwhelming.  

    No, your ignorance of the archival record is overwhelming.

    Once again, you were quite predictable in your ignorance which you
stupidly and arrogantly mistook for superior knowledge.  Thank you for
proving yourself a loud clown yet again.


>>>	That you do not realize how ignorant you are is merely amusing.

    Now that the 1944 Blankenburg letter has been posted, I trust everyone
realizes that (once again) you are the one who has been shown to be the
buffoon here.

    Nobody here said that this program was carried out.  You were of
course attacking an argument that nobody made, for all that you complain
of it being done to you.  (Of course, on more than one occasion your "I
never said that" assertion has been proved false.)
  

>>    That you do not remember your previous citation of the Wannsee
>>Document as evidence that the plan was sterilization is also amusing.
>
>>    Where did I say what Brack proposed was accurate or practical?
>
>>    Nowhere of course.
>
>>    That you do not realize how completely dishonest and illiterate you
>>are is merely pathetic. 
>
>	Rather I would point out there is not one documented case of such a 
>sterilization as in an observed case of X-Ray destroyed reproductive
>organs.

    I love the way you make sweeping claims of nonexistence knowing full
well that you have no way of knowing if they are true.  All you can
truthfully say is that you have not seen them.  But you seem to have the
insane notion that the only true facts are the ones you know.

    Nevertheless, you have confirmed the later results of Nazi science
exposing Brack as the Lysenko of their sterilization program.


>	It took much longer than I expected for some holohugger to point out 
>there exist no examples of such "experiments" ever having been conducted.  

    There you are wrong.  How would one know it is not practical without
an experiment to document the poor performance of the method?  This is
very simple analytical thinking.  Read the Blankenburg letter and do try
to understand it for once. 

    You are quite predictable in your ignorance and in your foolish
display of same.

    Now perhaps you would like to deal with this part of Brack's letter,
which I presume you were trying to avoid when you started the digression
on whether the proposal was practical:



According to my impression there are at least 2-3 million men and
women well fit for work among the approx. 10 million European
Jews. In consideration of the exceptional difficulties posed for
us by the question of labor, I am of the opinion that these 2-3
million should in any case be taken out and kept alive.



    A proposal to keep 2-3 million alive implies a policy to make 7-8
million dead, doesn't it?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 18:21:07 PDT 1996
Article: 52561 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Showerheads and such
Date: 23 Jul 1996 13:56:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4t33og$e22@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sspct$pe0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4sv9t6$5q7@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4t0a61$ac8@access5.digex.net> <4t1slt$run@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t1slt$run@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 22 Jul 1996 12:27:45 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:

[my entire post quoted with no comments interspersed whatsoever]

>	Lets get this straight.  
>	
>	I am not going to go over previous material that has been long 
>settled unless here is something to add by doing so.  
>
>	I do not give a damn what you want to resurrect.  
>
>	Every point I am talking to has been established, holohuggers be damned.
>
>	Is that clear enough?  
>
>	If you have missed something, go to DejaNews and stop wasting
>bandwidth on this NG.  
>
>	I hope that is clear.  

    When all else fails, assert loudly, pretend your evidence is on
DejaNews (but never give the URL!) and hope nobody notices your fanny is
flapping naked in the breeze. 

    I give URLs or search critera when citing DejaNews.  The only one here
wasting bandwidth is Matt Giwer.

    I an unimpressed by Matt's bluster.  I hope that is clear.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 20:24:03 PDT 1996
Article: 52561 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Showerheads and such
Date: 23 Jul 1996 13:56:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t1slt$run@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 22 Jul 1996 12:27:45 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:

[my entire post quoted with no comments interspersed whatsoever]

>	Lets get this straight.  
>	
>	I am not going to go over previous material that has been long 
>settled unless here is something to add by doing so.  
>
>	I do not give a damn what you want to resurrect.  
>
>	Every point I am talking to has been established, holohuggers be damned.
>
>	Is that clear enough?  
>
>	If you have missed something, go to DejaNews and stop wasting
>bandwidth on this NG.  
>
>	I hope that is clear.  

    When all else fails, assert loudly, pretend your evidence is on
DejaNews (but never give the URL!) and hope nobody notices your fanny is
flapping naked in the breeze. 

    I give URLs or search critera when citing DejaNews.  The only one here
wasting bandwidth is Matt Giwer.

    I an unimpressed by Matt's bluster.  I hope that is clear.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 23 20:24:04 PDT 1996
Article: 52657 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: 23 Jul 1996 13:16:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <4t31dj$c08@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4sv92b$huv@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4t04qm$jgu@access5.digex.net> <4t1qd7$lfq@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t1qd7$lfq@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 22 Jul 1996 10:56:22 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4sv92b$huv@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 21 Jul 1996 08:08 MST, 
>>>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>>>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>>>>    

>>>
>>>>>	Should anyone be interested for any purpose whatsoever.  
>>>
>>>>    Thanks.  I was wondering where to send that Nizkor contribution cheque.
>>>	
>>>	It is called WHOIS you stupid shit.  If you do not like my making 
>>>it available raise hell with NIC for their making it available.
>
>>    Perhaps I should have posted your parents' full address and phone
>>number.  After all, it too is publicly available if you know the right web
>>site.  Would it bother you if I did that?  After all, it would not be my
>>fault since I am only making available what others have already made
>>available.
>
>>    For any purpose whatsoever.
>
>	That would not be a pleasant thing for you to do.

    I agree that I have more fun things to do with my time.


>In fact were anything to happen to them because of that, it might in fact
>be the last thing you ever do.  I hope that is clear.  

    I fully recognize the fact that I might be struck by a bus two minutes
after doing it.  Accidents happen.  That is quite clear.


>	Your fate will be dependent upon the consequences of your actions.  

    If I were to carelessly step in front of a bus after posting your
parents' address my death would be the consequence of my action of
carelessly stepping in front of a bus, absolutely right. 

    I certainly do not need you to tell me this.

    But your silly pseudothreats are highly amusing.

    Let's get this straight once and for all.  The only reason I do not
post your parent's address and phone is that I do not think they deserve
any grief just because they happened to give genetic material to a lying
piece of trash like you.  You will get nothing from your silly
pseudothreats save carpal tunnel syndrome.  Is that finally clear or do I
have to dumb it down for you? 


>	I have in mind revealing holohuggers for what they are to the media 
>and you in particular.  That should set you terrorists back a bit.  

    Ken McVay can attest to the truth of this statement.  He has
complained of how time spent with the media can set back the useful work.

    Feel free to reveal me for what I am to the media.  I really don't
think I'm that interesting, but it's your nickle, um quarter these days.
For that matter you might as well lie about me to the media the way you do
here.  I have no fears that you could in the long run cause me any real
damage by doing that.  I might even find it profitable. 


>What should be a civilized discussion in a single newsgroup becomes the 
>basis for exactly the kind of terrorism holohuggers claim they risk but
>never receive.  
>
>	Your professed martyrdom is amusing but not believed in the least.

    I am not Dahlman.  I have never professed martyrdom.  In fact, I have
quite pleasant relations with the majority of the "revisionists" posting
here.  Your pseudothreats are the very worst I've ever received.  And you
see how seriously I take them.  I'm quaking in my boots - from laughter.


>>>	Why do I always find myself among such ignorant amateurs?
>
>>    Stop looking in your bathroom mirror.  Still wondering about that
>>gopher mail from Israel, ignorant amateur?  It did not take root access
>>though you were ignorant enough to think so.
>
>	Now that was really clever.  
>
>	Rather as to the gopher mail, the acceptance that it in fact
>happened while I played dumb, 

    Sure didn't look like playing to me.


>supports you holohugging bastards being the slime you are.  You
>folks are slime, the slime of the earth.  Not worthy to consider yourselves
>human.  It is good that you took to opportunity to admit it.

    Admit what?  I did not send that mail and I certainly don't condone
it.  All I have said is that I do know how it was done - but I am quite
confident you do not.

    Ken McVay was mailbombed before you were.  However, all it reveals is
one Jeff Drahnetz for the slime he is.

    I have offered my services to Ingrid Rimland to help her track down a
mailbomber if she can capture the full headers.  If you asked, I would do
the same for you except that your mailbombing cannot be traced from the
headers - the mail was genuinely sent from the gopher site, but anyone who
knows the very openly visible method can do that.  However, I doubt that
your ego would allow you to ask in any event.  You'd have to admit that I
know more than you do, and you don't seem to be the kind of person who
would ever be psychologically capable of doing that.  Pity.



>>>But you can not send it there.  As last reported he has no tax exempt 
>>>status
>
>>    So you are saying that only what is reported here is true and remains
>>true until something different is reported here.
>
>	It is true that a) contributions were being solicited and b) at the 
>time of the solicitation there was no tax exempt status.  AG reports that
>is criminal.  Next question.
>
>	Is Nizkor tax exempt now?  If not, the solicitation is still illegal 
>under Canadian law.

    I answered this in misc.taxes long ago, Matt.  And all you could do
was play some juvenile game of pretending that you might not be able to
get the group even though I could see posts from Netcom in the group at
the time.  Just one more example of your complete dishonesty.  Give it up,
child.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Jul 23 21:56:08 PDT 1996
Article: 52683 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: 23 Jul 1996 22:22:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 154
Message-ID: <4t41e2$nj0@access1.digex.net>
References:  <4ste0n$3p9@access5.digex.net>  <4t1olk$711@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4t1olk$711@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:59:22 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>
>>What Giwer said is actually in accord with the results of
>>Nazi science; castration with X-rays did not prove itself
>>efficient, as the (later) letter from Blankenburg to 
>>Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler states.
>
>>Poor old Giwer... for once he says something which is 
>>correct, only to shoot himself in the foot.
>
>What I said, equally deficient in English fool, is that there is not one
>documented case of it ever having happened.

    Bzzt!  Ground shifting.  That is not of course how this got started.

    And of course Mr. Giwer's "paupacy" of English skills is well-known.
In fact, the synatx of his sentence above shows that his English skills
are deficient.  But they are merely on a par with his debating skills.


>	No wonder you folks have our bowels in an uproar over this one.  

    You and your tapeworm?

    Of course rumor has it that Mr. Giwer's bowels may be in an uproar
soon for an entirely different reason. 


>	You never realized it before, did you?  
>
>	NOT ONE CASE of it, PERIOD.

    Your claim, your burden of proof.

    What's that?  You say you can't prove a negative? 

    Too bad, idiot.  It's your problem if you are stupid enough to make
claims you can't prove.

    But assume you are right.  What does this prove?  Remember that these
experiments, according to the letter, would have been conducted in a
neighborhood with a very high death rate anyway.

    Do I have to dumb this down for you?



>	NOT ONE VICTIM!  Nothing more than your manufactured NKVD "evidence."   


     Let's review the bidding.

     First Mr. Giwer insinuates that the impracticality of X-ray 
sterilization indicates something about the 1942 letter from Brack to 
Himmler should have tipped us off to - something.  He ranted on as if people 
were accepting that it was feasible.  But of course nobody had.  Giwer was 
merely being his usual dishonest self.  

     After Matt had a suitable opportunity to make an ass of himself, Danny 
Keren dropped the other shoe - a 1944 letter from Blankenburg to Himmler 
saying that Brack's work was worthless, _exactly as Matt claimed_.

     Now in full retreat (you can spot it by the frenzied appearance of
hysterical full attack), Matt falls back on the "Forgeries!  All
Forgeries!" line (no evidence offered, of course).  But follow closely: 

     - It appears Matt wanted to use the impracticality of X-ray
       sterilization as evidence that the Brack letter was forged.

     - However, a second letter refers to Brack's work and calls it
       impractical.  If this letter is genuine, then it also authenticates
       Brack's letter as just a document containing an error, not a
       forgery.

     - So poor Matt must now declare both letters forged.  However, he can 
       no longer claim ignorance of the impracticality on the part of the 
       forgers as evidence of forgery of the first letter, as the second 
       letter proves the alleged forgers did know it was impractical!


     In other words, in his panic Matt has raised a self-contradictory 
argument.  Arguing with Matt is usually like shooting fish in a barrel - but 
this is the first time I've seen the fish itself pull the trigger! 

     Of course poor Matt has two other little problems here.  The first
one is that since he asserts forgery he now bears the burden of proof.  As
is his habit, he has presented no evidence - as I have show above, what
little he had he just blew away himself! 

     The second, of course, is that he had previously written:


 Subject:      Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
 From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
 Date:         1996/07/12
 Message-Id:   <4s50jk$g8d@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
 X-Netcom-Date: Fri Jul 12  2:58:44 AM CDT 1996


On 11 Jul 1996 23:25:17 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  On 9 Jul 1996 12:46:57 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>  Stein) wrote:
>>
>>
>>  >    Who put the caption on the films?  How do you know what town is down


>>  >there?  Is there some sort of big sign like there is in Hollywood,
>>  >saying "Dresden?"
>>
>>      You are playing games.  Official records of reel nunbers assigned to
>>  particular operations exist.

>       Such things are easily forged.  The CIA is very good at that sort of th
ing.

        But there is no claim of forgery for the holohugger evidence, only
twisted interpretation.




Linkname: Deja News Retrieved Document
    URL:
      http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=7148017&server=dnserver.db96q3

[Note once again I do not just assert it's on DejaNews, I give the URL.
Matt never does.  Now, why could that be?]

So which is today's true truth?  No claim of forgery, only twisted
interpretation?  Or forgery after all? 

     Oops!

     Matt, when you resolve your self-contradictions, please get back to
me.  Something more mature and intelligent than "Holohugging fool!" would
be appreciated.  Give your track record, however, it is not seriously
expected.


     By the way, Matty, please master your caps lock key.  You look like a 
freshman twit who has not read news.announce.newusers.

    If I did not know better, I would say this is evidence you were losing
it.  But how can you lose what you never had?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Jul 24 00:14:00 PDT 1996
Article: 52711 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 23 Jul 1996 22:41:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4t42gu$od7@access1.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4sveia$abj@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31F389B7.43B0@gryn.org> <4t1474$k9s@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80393 alt.revisionism:52711

In article <4t1474$k9s@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:01:27 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>>         The issue is that the "witnesses" were reporting it as blue because of the German
>>> name for it Blausaure, blue acid.  It is clear from every available source that the
>>> material available at Auschwitz had a wood pulp carrier and was in no manner related
>>> to anything blue.
>
>>Repetition doesn't make things true, Matt. 
>
>>You're simply sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and
>>yelling "Not true!" - like a child.
>
>>You lost this one too, Matt. Stop behaving like a child and prove you're
>>not an infantile mind like Moron and company.
>
>>IOW:
>
>>GROW UP, MATT!!
>
>	As you know, I posted the Degesh publication

    Which you admitted may not have been complete.


>describing the type used as a
>fumigant.  You also know that you read that post.  Therefore you know it was a
>wood pulp carrier.

    You have already forgotten your own claim that there was also kitty
litter?

    But Peters of Degesch published a journal article which mentioned
ERCO as well.  Are you claiming that this form was not used for
fumigation?  What do you think it was used for - whitening and brightening
laundry?  Give us a break!

    Just what do you think "Schaedlingsbekaempfen" means?



>	So what point are you trying to make?  

    That is a question you should be answering, silly person who pretends
that because ERCO is not mentioned in one source it did not exist.

    I know four-year-olds who would be embarrassed to argue so stupidly.

    Give it up, child.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 24 00:14:00 PDT 1996
Article: 52722 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mattie Giwer can contradict himself *six* times before breakfast?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 23 Jul 1996 13:26:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4t320s$cgp@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net>  <4sscj0$t1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4t0o4c$k45@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:36958 alt.politics.nationalism.white:26029 alt.revisionism:52722

In article <4t0o4c$k45@bell.maths.tcd.ie>,
Derek Bell  wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	This time I said nothing about suing.  
>	
>	Then what was this crap about "further, unspecified penalties" in your
>post about Nizkor?        ^^^^

    I do believe you answered your own question ...

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 24 07:10:13 PDT 1996
Article: 52743 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: You're right, Alec
Date: 23 Jul 1996 12:30:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4t2uo1$a4t@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4sv84o$1us@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4t1s6f$n70@access5.digex.net> <4t26gv$pml@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t26gv$pml@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 23 Jul 1996 02:41:19 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4sv84o$1us@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 21 Jul 1996 10:14:47 -0400, 
>>>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>[1942 letter from Brack to Himmler, proposing sterilization by X-ray
>>snipped]
>
>
>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>
>>>>>>>	Strangely, but not surprisingly, we know today that sterilization by
>>>>>>>radiation is one of the hardest things to do.
>>>
>>>>    Works with fruit flies, no?
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>    Umm, Matt?  The letter was written in 1942.
>>>>>
>>>>>	X-Rays are many decades older (1898?).  It was certainly known long
>>>>>before 1942.  
>
>>    Handwaving.  Note the lack of any evidence.
>
>>    Who makes the claim bears the burden of proof.
>
>	Not ONE person, period.  Sorry about that.  


    I am impressed.  Right on schedule or even a little ahead.  Losing it
completely.  Can do nothing but rave incoherently with another unsupported
(and not clearly comprehensible!) assertion and had to cut out the rest of
my article because he couldn't deal with it.

    Pity.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 24 11:17:12 PDT 1996
Article: 52858 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:45:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4t10as$6ki@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sfh09$q15@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4skamp$5gr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4su5v1$f04@access5.digex.net> <4sutfm$eos@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sutfm$eos@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 17:03:29 -0400, 
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>>	Then what ethnic group studies do you think YFE is referring to?  
>
>>    The ones of immigration to the land area which would later become the
>>United States, of course.
>
>>    It was part of what you cut out of my post in responding.
>
>>    Did you always suffer from attention deficit disorder or was this a
>>recent development?
>
>	And just which were they?  

    Read the fine newsgroup.


>	You silly fools have stepped in it one more time

    What a mature, adult response.

    I have told Mr. Giwer what he needs to do to get people to stop
calling him a lying troll.  He does not pay attention.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 24 13:30:07 PDT 1996
Article: 52878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 24 Jul 1996 10:35:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <4t5cc0$4k8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t4qci$eg7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t4qci$eg7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 23 Jul 1996 14:15:27 GMT, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
>
>>In <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt 
>>Giwer) writes: 
>>>
>>>	McFlea, McFly, it does not matter.
>>>	This fool clams to be in his 50s and has the intellecutal age
>>of a teenager.
>>>
>>>		Beyond that, he is a greate defend of what he is
>>incapable of understandiug.  
>>>		After all, he is a mongoloid idiot behind a
>>keyboard.  
>>>
>>Well, Giwer -- when you have nothing left but personal attacks, you are
>>sitting at the botom of the barrel looking up.  Why waste bandwidth
>>with this type of tripe.  Obviously you have been bested in a fair
>>fight, and have no ammunition left to continue the battle.  Be a man
>>and admit defeat.  Better yet, take your ball and bat and go home.  
>

> It is rather difficult to explain to a fatbroad such as yourself.  I
> would suggest you read for a while and learn how things are done by men. 

    All I see from Mr. Giwer's post is how things are done by schoolyard
children.  (I note that Tom Moran has not commented on this.) 

    Rumor has it that Mr. Giwer may soon get a lesson in adult behavior
due to some very, very childish things he has said.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 24 14:52:02 PDT 1996
Article: 52905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:33:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4t0vjb$66h@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4sfl4l$q58@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31EBD252.43E8@gryn.org> <4sidot$k9i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sidot$k9i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:

[snip]

>	And remember we have even been informed that the tearing agent was
>removed.  Of course those who said it failed to note the date was years
>earlier.

    Wrong AGAIN, Matt.  The indicator was removed in 1944.  The Kremas
commenced operation in 1943.  Tell us again about "years earlier?"

    The documentation was quoted in YOUR OWN POST only sixteen days ago!

http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=
%3c4rku75$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3

    Get help for that memory problem, Matt!


[remainder deleted; Alec is doing quite well dealing with it]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Jul 24 18:19:02 PDT 1996
Article: 52922 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: 23 Jul 1996 23:20:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4t44pu$q2i@access1.digex.net>
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4svivi$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4t043k$itl@access5.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Daniel Keren  wrote:
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>
># But upon the last post on this subject, you do no have tax
># exempt status and therefore such solicitation is criminal.
>
>This seems like a totally idiotic statement.
>
>Can someone who knows something about these matters confirm?

    I responded months ago in misc.taxes and all Giwer could do is start a
juvenile troll about how I didn't know if he could get the group.  Of
course I could see Netcom posts in the group at the time I posted my
response.


>It is clear that Giwer is going down the tubes. 



    Someday you will learn the difference between present tense and past
tense. 


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 24 21:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 52957 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Silence You Almost Can Hear
Date: 24 Jul 1996 18:07:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4t66q7$omn@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t1kip$idj@news.enter.net> <4t3s2e$950@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50c_9607240722@tor250.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <50c_9607240722@tor250.org>, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[A Silence You Almost Can Hear] [Tue 23 Jul 96 20:50][Wed 24 Jul 96
>05:19][0]*>
>
>
> >> His first tack was to claim that it was censored and the
> >> contents altered.  He was challenged to show any posts that
> >> were either censored or altered.  he could not.
>
> >> His second tack was to claim that certain of the contents
> >> were libellous.  He was challenged to name the defamatory
> >> contents.  he could not.
>
> mnc>     All of the above were of course done.  We have been over
> mnc> this.  Search DejaNews for the details.
>
>I didn't have to, Matt. My own archives go even further back.
>
>Nope - You couldn't prove any of it, because it's all legit.
>
>Give the URL if it's there, Matt.

    A really good URL is

http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=
%3c4rhd1u$esp@access1.digex.net%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3

    It tells how I managed to get Matty to hook himself on his _own_
troll!

    I will admit to being somewhat pleased with myself on that one.

    He used my very careful words as a basis for his censorship claim -
and I see that even after I showed him _twice_ where he blew it, he still
repeats it! 

    Truly pathetic.  But I guess that's the best a 163 IQ type can do.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 24 22:11:27 PDT 1996
Article: 52969 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another class action lawsuit
Date: 24 Jul 1996 12:52:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4t5kd5$bg8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4svgko$ma9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2uk8$svp@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t2uk8$svp@bell.maths.tcd.ie>,
Derek Bell  wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	For those of you not not old enough or with short memories here is the
>>real skinny.
>
>	Seeing as Mattie has the maturity of a four-year-old Butthead and the
>memory of a slug, this is incredibly ironic.

    This statement is libelous.  You will be hearing from the attorneys
for Butthead and the slugs shortly.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 06:39:44 PDT 1996
Article: 52975 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Khazars
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:43:52 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4t65eo$nu9@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rvsis$e4e@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <31EE9613.21BE@gryn.org> <4smtmc$l62@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52975 alt.usenet.kooks:27419 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:318

In article ,
  wrote:
>In article <4smtmc$l62@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>         Were that the case then the stranger could not be fed on
>Passover as it
>> was the only food that could be prepared on that day.  As hospitality
>> meant food and shelter leaving the person unfed for a day is not nice.  
>
>Obviously, Mr. Giwer has never been to a Passover seder, especially at my
>house (and thank goodness for THAT).
> 
>Every seder I've been to has enough food for any and all "strangers" who
>might drop in. That's part of the pleasure of Passover -- making too much
>food.
> 
>By the way... who SAYS it's "the only food that can be prepared that day"?
> 
>Mr. Giwer, the expert in Judaism?

    I'll lay a small wager that Matt's bowling-ball-sharp mind has
Osterized the Jewish law that one may not prepare food on a holiday which
is intended to be eaten _only_ on a following day.  (I will not go into
the laws of the eruv.)  He has twisted this into a nonexistent rule that
the only food which may be prepared on Passover are the mandated seder
foods. Any food which is to be eaten on that day may be prepared on that
day whether for the seder or not, and except for the now-obsolete
sacrifice, if you happen to have leftovers it's OK.  The sacrifice was
off-limits to the uncircumcised, but all other foods could be shared. 
Giwer is, as usual, both highly confused and trumpeting his confusion as
superior knowledge. 

    I have urged him to get help for that memory problem.  He does not
listen.  Pity.

    Posted/emailed to Sara and Alec.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Jul 25 06:39:44 PDT 1996
Article: 52995 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 23 Jul 1996 23:05:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <4t43uc$peq@access1.digex.net>
References:  <31EBD252.43E8@gryn.org> <4sidot$k9i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4t0vjb$66h@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

    Normally I don't post private email without permission, even from
people like Mr. Giwer who have no scruples about such things.  However, in
this case I am quite sure Mr. Giwer meant to post this but could not
master his software.  Far be it from me to deprive this newsgroup of his 
bowling-ball-sharp grasp of the facts.


 Message-ID: <199607230925.CAA11832@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
 From: Matt  Giwer 
 To: "Michael P. Stein" 
 Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:24:07 GMT
 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
 Matt Giwer wrote:

>On 22 Jul 1996 18:33:15 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4sidot$k9i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>
>>[snip]
>
>>>	And remember we have even been informed that the tearing agent was
>>>removed.  Of course those who said it failed to note the date was years
>>>earlier.
>
>>    Wrong AGAIN, Matt.  The indicator was removed in 1944.  The Kremas
>>commenced operation in 1943.  Tell us again about "years earlier?"
>
>>    The documentation was quoted in YOUR OWN POST only sixteen days ago!
>
>>http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=
>>%3c4rku75$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3
>
>>    Get help for that memory problem, Matt!
>
>
>>[remainder deleted; Alec is doing quite well dealing with it]
>
>	Blind ass idiot.  The documentation that the tearing agent was
>eliminated in 1941 has already been posted. 

    Although as usual he gives no documentation to support this assertion
(and is as usual wrong), I do recognize what real piece of documentation
his mighty mind has mangled.  Our self-styled genius is misremembering the
Hoess memo dated 12th August 1941 or at best relying on someone else who
did. 

    Mr. Giwer is a blind ass idiot indeed.  The tearing agent was
_reduced_ in 1941.  Not eliminated, just reduced.  It was _eliminated_ in
1944 - just as I said.

    YOO HOO!  MATT!  ARE WE KEEPING YOU AWAKE?


>	Lood it up, fool.  

    Could Mr. Giwer's foolishness here be the result of his being too
'looded up to read or write straight? 

    As I said before: GET HELP FOR THAT MEMORY PROBLEM, MATT!
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 06:39:45 PDT 1996
Article: 52997 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Khazars
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 24 Jul 1996 11:27:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4t5fdr$7ed@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t4236$p45@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4t46un$4to@news.enter.net> <4t504v$47n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52997 alt.usenet.kooks:27421 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:319

In article <4t504v$47n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 24 Jul 1996 03:57:11 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>>>  
>>>  	Where do you think potatoes came from?  
>
>>	When did potatoes become part of a Seder?
>
>	They were named as part of Seder, idiot.  Read the find thread.  

    They were not, idiot.  Learn to read the fine thread with
comprehension. 

[Matt Giwer:]
>>    Are you saying the law permits other than Passover food to be
>>prepared on Passover?

[Mike Stein:]
>    Where did you get any silly idea to the contrary?  Even a Jew may eat
>absolutely anything kosher as long as it isn't chometz.  The one thing
>the non-Jew is not allowed to eat is the Passover sacrifice, the lamb.
>You want to gorge yourself on fruit, fish, matzoh, chicken, potatoes -
>all permitted.  Want some cheese instead of a meat meal?  Sure!

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8621240&server=dnserver.db96q3


    I mentioned potatoes, but note that nowhere in my text does it mention
the seder.  Matt hallucinated that part completely. The question was "on
Passover," not "during the seder."  The seder is eaten in the evening at
the very start.  Apparently the idiotic Mr. Giwer thinks that one cannot
have lunch the next day.  Passover lasts a whole week even in Israel, and
the seder is only at the start of the holiday.  Does our 163 IQ type
thinks that one fasts for an entire week after the seder? 

    The mandatory seder foods are the wine, the matzoh, the bitter herb,
the charoset, and the green herb (and, during the time of the Temple, the
sacrificed lamb).  Whatever else happens to be available which does not
violate the dietary restrictions - whether it was around in ancient Israel
or not - _may_ be eaten along with the seder foods.

    I have told Mr. Giwer what he needs to do to get people to stop
calling him a lying troll.  Perhaps I should have added remedial reading
lessons to that list.  Not that he has listened to my suggestions so far. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 06:39:46 PDT 1996
Article: 53000 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Ken McVay
Date: 24 Jul 1996 11:32:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4t5fmg$7m6@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sna73$7s7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4sv721$3l2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4t30n0$15o@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t4cq8$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t4cq8$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 23 Jul 1996 18:04:32 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>	The caller identified himself as Ken McVay.  Is that good enough for
>>>you?  
>
>>	It's not enough for me - it could be someone playing a prank.
>
>>	After all, if I make a phone call and claim to be Bart Simpson, that
>>doesn't make me Bart, now does it?
>
>	But it turns out to be a fellow holohugger.  They are all alike.  

    Really?  Where is your physical evidence?

    Putting eyewitness testimony into an email does not make it physical
evidence.

    Why is Andrew Mathis's voluntary confession more believable to you
than Franz Suchomel's voluntary confession to Claude Lanzmann?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Jul 25 06:39:47 PDT 1996
Article: 53048 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer advances to the rear again
Date: 24 Jul 1996 23:24:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4t6pd3$fcm@access1.digex.net>
References: <4spim1$9sg@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4svf8c$8a1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t1158$75e@access5.digex.net> <4t3o23$df4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4t3o23$df4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 22 Jul 1996 18:59:52 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>>    The question was contributions to the revolution by members of various
>>ethnic groups - as we think of them today.  Your pretense that the fact
>>that "ethnic group" is a recent concept changes reality is amusing.
>>The definition can be applied regardless of whether the people at the time
>>would understand the term.  Do you believe supernovas did not exist until
>>they were named by astronomers?
>
>	When people did not think of themselves in that manner nor did they 
>act as though they were members of an ethnic group, there there were no
>ethnic groups.

    Ah, you are doing the old Humpty-Dumpty ploy one better - "When I use
a word, it means precisely what I want it to mean - neither more nor less. 
And when you use a word, it means precisely what I want it to mean -
no matter what you meant by it, and no matter what everyone else in the
world but me thinks it means."

    Your infantile games are quite transparent.  Do you really think
you're impressing people?


>Beyond that, I am still awaiting what "groups" folks here
>are imagining there were.

    This is indeed worthy of Tom Moran.  Answers have been posted.  You
are indeed playing the little child who sticks his fingers in his ears and
says, "What?  I didn't hear anything."

    Grow up, infant.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 09:10:20 PDT 1996
Article: 53097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A SINCERE APOLOGY
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:16:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4t63r0$n05@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t5riv$ncc@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t5riv$ncc@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Matt Giwer  did not write:

>I feel that I must apologize for my dyslexic rantings for the past few 
>days. [...]

    Hi, Marduk!  What a coincidence - I was just wondering where you were
these days, and here you are!


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 11:44:03 PDT 1996
Article: 53136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 25 Jul 1996 11:57:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4t85go$oln@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4sidot$k9i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4t0vjb$66h@access5.digex.net> <4t31ln$nqp@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t31ln$nqp@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>,
Richard J. Green  wrote:
>In article <4t0vjb$66h@access5.digex.net>,
>Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>>In article <4sidot$k9i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>	And remember we have even been informed that the tearing agent was
>>>removed.  Of course those who said it failed to note the date was years
>>>earlier.
>>
>>    Wrong AGAIN, Matt.  The indicator was removed in 1944.  The Kremas
>                             ^^^^^^^^^
>>commenced operation in 1943.  Tell us again about "years earlier?"
>
>Don't you mean that the lachrymogen was removed?

    That is exactly what I meant, yes - the lachrymogen used as an
indicator to warn people to clear the area in case of a leak, not a
humidity indicator.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 15:09:14 PDT 1996
Article: 53162 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Mattie Giwer can contradict himself *six* times before breakfast?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 25 Jul 1996 12:21:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4t86uv$pso@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net> <4t29d6$roo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t5evl$dpa@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t708m$ah@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:53162 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:330

In article <4t708m$ah@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 24 Jul 1996 16:20:21 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>	I'm sure someone with an IQ of 163 could manage that! (Which test did
>>you say you got it on?)
>
>
>	I did not but it was Cattell.  

    You did in fact say it was the Cattell scale at the time you made the
original statement.  Once again you cannot remember the recent history of
the discussion - even your own words!  This makes it extremely hard to
believe that you remember your science accurately from years earlier.

    What you did not say is that the Cattell and Stanford-Binet scales do
not norm the same.  Mensa requires a 132 Stanford-Binet but a 148 Cattell.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 15:09:15 PDT 1996
Article: 53165 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Mr. Giwer shows his ignorance of the 'net and other things
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 25 Jul 1996 09:52:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4t7u65$ji4@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t5riv$ncc@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4t63r0$n05@access5.digex.net> <4t7655$nqq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:53165 alt.usenet.kooks:27450 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:333

In article <4t7655$nqq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 24 Jul 1996 17:16:16 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4t5riv$ncc@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,
>>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Matt Giwer  did not write:
>
>>>I feel that I must apologize for my dyslexic rantings for the past few 
>>>days. [...]
>
>>    Hi, Marduk!  What a coincidence - I was just wondering where you were
>>these days, and here you are!
>
>	You should be aware that idirect fired him and now netcom is after 
>him.  By clearly identifying him as a netcom employee with root access
>your are hastening his trip to the dole.  

    What root access?  Forgery of articles is easy.  _Perfect_ forgery is
what takes talent - though _not_ root access.  I have known for some time
how Marduk could do picture-perfect forgeries of your articles, without
root access.  You'll notice I haven't told him how.

    He was an ordinary idirect.com user.  He is an ordinary Netcruiser
user.  As the target of his forgeries (which are so broad and obvious that
I don't need to look at the headers - oh, and he can spell, which you
can't), you have the right to complain to Netcom should you choose to do
so.  If you have not done so, I can only conclude that you _want_ them to
continue so that you can continue your lying trollish ways and pretend
there is some great "holohugger conspiracy." 


>	Why would you want to do this to him?  Why would you also want to 
>strengthen the holohugger conspiracy case?

    What kind of conspiracy is it whose members disagree in public and do
not all carry out the alleged plans of the alleged conspiracy?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 20:02:22 PDT 1996
Article: 53185 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The threatened lawsuit
Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:39:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4t0vut$6cl@access5.digex.net>
References: <4svikf$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4t0ncl$gfg@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t0ncl$gfg@lendl.cc.emory.edu>,
william c anderson  wrote:
>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: 	And non-paranoid reading what I posted knows that I have never 
>:	threatened a lawsuit and there have been many posts in that regard.  
>: 
>: 	All of the message traffic about the lawsuit had no basis in 
>:	anything I said, save for the paranoid. 
>: 
>: 	But the holohuggers are very paranoid.  
>
>Remarkable.  Giwer backpedals--once again--by telling an obvious and
>easily-exposed lie.  If nobody beats me to it, I'm going to hit 
>dejanews--anybody want to bet I won't find at least half-a-dozen
>posts in which Giwer threatens, alludes, or otherwise refers to his
>silly class-action RICO suit idea?

    Plus which, you will note that it was treated with general derision. 
Of course, Giwer is not nearly bright enough to be able to understand such
fine nuances of writing.  I always put the likelihood of his actually
filing suit about on a par with the sun rising in the west tomorrow.  His
pretense that there was any paranoia about his lawsuit talk is either a
wilful lie or gross stupidity.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 20:02:23 PDT 1996
Article: 53208 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Web Browser Incompetence
Date: 17 Jul 1996 14:17:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 100
Message-ID: <4sjanh$sma@access5.digex.net>
References: <31e90cca.8929322@news.pacificnet.net> <4sbilo$o70@access5.digex.net> <31e9772a.1743758@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31e9772a.1743758@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>    Even people who speak foreign languages very well have trouble doing
>>translations of specialized technical articles such as the Peters article
>>and the Zyklon and Topf patents.  Poor disappointed little Tommy will just
>>have to wait.  Of course he will never bother to learn German so that he
>>can educate himself.  He expects Nizkor to spoonfeed him right now, or
>>else he'll snivel and complain and stamp his foot because he isn't getting
>>what he wants, right now!
>
>	When Mr.Stein tries to insult me with,  "Of course he will never
>bother to learn German so that he can educate himself", he implies the
>same for anyone reading his thing who doesn't read German.

    I do not.  I only imply the same for those who spend their time
sniveling and complaining about the information being in German rather
than being thankful the information is there at all and doing what they
have to do to use the information.


>Does this mean that Mr.Stein reads German?

    It does not mean that I read German.  The fact that I do read German
is completely independent of my remarks.

    It means you snivel and complain about someone giving you German.
Now, do you see the Germans who post here sniveling and complaining
because you post in English?


>When Mr.Stein says, "He expects
>Nizkor to spoon feed him right now, or else he'll snivel and complain
>and stamp his foot because he isn't getting what he wants, right now!"
>does he direct this to me personally or is it directed to the general
>reader?

    It's directed to whoever is sniveling and complaining.  Do you see
anyone sniveling and complaining about it being in German besides little
Tommy Moran?  I don't.


>	Mr.Stein tries to argue that translating a few pages of a
>technical paper is very difficult. Technical subjects are far more
>easier to translate than other topics where sayings and idioms are
>used extensively.

    How would you know?  Which languages do you speak, Tommy, and where
did you learn them and how long did you study them?

    Technical papers are full of technical words you don't normally learn
in German class.  So you have to keep going to the dictionary, and a very
comprehensive one.  On the other hand, language classes do teach everyday
idioms.


>>>My opinion is that Nizkor is engaged in a corrupt practice, insulting
>>>to anyone who would access the site, intentionally.
>>
>>    My opinion is that Tom Moran is a loud fool who cannot figure out how
>>to "incite his rigii" properly and then blames Nizkor for his own
>>foolish mistakes.
>>
>	We will just have to wait and see what Jamie has to say. I wonder
>if Mr.Stien has any idea of how Jamie would come to say Nizkor has
>some "very interesting source documents", referring to the topic here,
>and he doesn't know German and the document hasn't been translated
>yet? What about it Mr.Stein, you omitted addressing this question
>which was posed in the article to which have selectively chosen only
>parts to respond to.
>
>	I wonder when Mr.Stein berates Moran for not knowing German if
>this would apply to Jamie also?

    Both Jamie and I can read German, little Tommy.  I don't say I'm
great; I need to consult a dictionary more often than I would like, but I
have done German translations when the need arises.  I also speak French,
rather better than I do German.

    What you weren't smart enough to figure out, little Tommy, was that
even if the document were in English, it would still need fifteen pages of
hand-typing to copy from the picture image to text.  Fifteen pages takes
some time all by itself.


>>>For anyone wanting to experience the idiotic contempt, check it out.
>>
>>    No, anyone wanting to experience idiotic contempt should check out
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom - now THERE is
>>some idiotic contempt!
>
>	NO, NO. Not that again. Too bad these people who keep referring
>others to Nizkor dossiers don't just post the stuff instead of asking
>them to wade through the Nizkor mess.

    It's hard to miss the idiotic contempt - not much wading is required.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Jul 25 20:02:24 PDT 1996
Article: 53223 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clean hands
Date: 25 Jul 1996 12:58:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <4t892v$rin@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4t1qd7$lfq@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t5hk6$fge@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t6rk7$3a2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t6rk7$3a2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>Lets review the bidding.  I receive phones calls from an unknown person 
>making noises and growling something about Nazi.  
>
>I regularly receive not only harrassing email from Canadian sources but also
>mail bombs from Canada.  	
>
>My son has received harrassing email from Canada.  And then someone calls my
>parents identifying himself as a person from Canada and the word gets to me
>second hand that a Candian has let me know he knows their phone number and
>therefore address.  Or were you born yesterday and do not understand that kind
>of message?  
>
>At this point Canadians in one way or another have involved my entire
>immediate family in their continuing harrassment campaign.

    It's the CANADIAN KONSPIRACY!

    Going to sue the entire population of Canada?

    Of course you have no physical evidence for any of your allegations.
Tough luck that.


>And now we have Stein from Virginia threatening to join in the harrassment.

    I made no threats.  But you know that.

    Do you really not realize how very, very silly you look?

[...]

>	I have five people who have been involved besides me.  There are 
>witnesses to their involvement.  I also have six ISPs who have been
>involved and who presumably have records of what is going on.

    And Colin MacGregor, who is a system administrator at one of those
ISPs, emphatically denies ever having said what you have asserted he did.
This does not look very good for you.


>I have
copies of messages; I
>even have 400 different copies of the same message in one case.  And then of
>course there is DejaNews.  	
>
>	I will be quite curious how this one goes down.

    You know what happened to the cat.  Verb. sap. which in your case does
not apply.  This is most decidedly not a threat, by the way - whatever
happens will not be the result of anything I do except for the retrieval
of information.


>Beyond your childishness, it is quite my hope that a criminal investigation
>has been started.

    Be careful what you wish for.  You may get it.


>It is simply that I am not the one to start it as I know
>how tempers flare in public discussion groups like this and how ill-conceived
>posts are made.

    You are responsible for your actions.


>It would be quite interesting to see the direction it takes
>after the complete story comes under consideration.

    If anyone who made harassing phone calls to you is caught, they
deserve whatever happens to them.  However that would not shield you from
responsibility for any illegal acts you may have committed.

    Even those for which the statute of limitations has run out may come
back to haunt you in their own way.

    If I were your attorney I would counsel an insanity plea.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 26 05:08:41 PDT 1996
Article: 53293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clean hands
Date: 25 Jul 1996 15:57:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4t8jio$5qn@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t73oo$qg6@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t73oo$qg6@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>Just as a matter of general interest, there was an amusing post by an 
>Alec
>So what happened is one day I got this rather violent complaint to me as a
>copy of what had been sent to my service provider.  I was being accused of
>posting and a.r message to some very inappropriate conferences.  
>

>Of course I challenged it.  He responded with a list of messages, save
>that the one just before I did the "evil deed" was by Alec Grynspan.
>That message however had been cancelled so he could not provide a copy 
>of it.  I was able to provide him with a copy of that message indicating
>that SOME OTHER Alec Grynspan was the one who originally caused the
>posts to incorrect conferences. 

>Now I have no idea if there is any connection but an Alec Grynspan here
>commented that I had "fallen for" that trick.  
>
>Perhaps folks should consider whether or not I let it happen and kept the
>message just so the blame would be applied properly.

    Nobody forced you to respond, of course.

    Nobody forced you to ignore the list of newsgroups to which your
message would be posted.

    Therefore you do not escape blame, _especially_ if you noticed but
let it happen.  You can change the Newsgroups: line if you want to.  You
would be more innocent if you didn't notice - but then you would have to
admit that you fell for a trick many freshmen have learned to avoid.
Either way you do not come out looking entirely unfoolish.

    My guess is that you fell for the trick and are trying to engage in
some spin doctoring to make yourself look not quite so stupid.  Except
that you are just managing to dig yourself in deeper.


>But then it is just one more example of creating harrassment of me by
>attempting to bring my service provider and people from other NGs into it
>innocently.  
>
>But of course, despite all of the references to email, none of this is
>organized or coordinated.  It just continues to happen spontaneously.  
>It is qute amazing what happens without organization.  

    It is quite amazing how paranoid the above sounds.


>They are not a hate group.  They all act as individual haters.  But of 
>course it is still harrassment and they are all part of it.

    Anytime you wish to present evidence is fine with me.

    Or are you still having trouble with that "evidence" thing?


>Right Alec?  Not a problem with Alec Grynspan answers.  There are many
>innocent and only one guilty one.  

    Oh, I wouldn't go so far as to say that.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 26 05:08:42 PDT 1996
Article: 53307 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: 25 Jul 1996 10:14:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <4t7vh3$kl0@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4t4f0o$o9v@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4t6k5u$hm4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t6k5u$hm4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:15:42 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>># Not ONE person ever found deliberately sterilized by 
>># X-Rays by the Nazis.  
>
>>Just for the record, how do you know this? I will try
>>and consult some sources to see if, indeed, no such
>>person was found.
>
>>Considering that the experiments took place in Auschwitz,
>>it is very possible that no one was found; I don't know,
>>and I will try to find out.  
>
>	Perhaps you will find the X-Ray machine at least?  

    And just what would that prove, seeing as X-ray machines have
perfectly ordinary uses?  Trolling, trolling....


>>Moreover, the Nazi doctors arrived at the conclusion
>>that the method didn't work that well, and that surgical
>>castration is better.
>
>	None of that kind found either.

    How do you know this?  Making it up as you go, of course.


>>But this is not the major issue; the major issue is that
>>a leading Nazi official, Oberfuehrer Victor Brack, asked
>>that not *all* Jews be killed, but that 20-30 percent will
>>be spared and used for slave labor, after being sterilized.
>
>	So where are they among the survivors?
>
>>This is the main point, and it's a document, which, 
>>apparently, "revisionists" now acknowledge to fall within 
>>the realm of physical evidence.
>
>	I speak only for myself.  I am still looking for real physical 
>evidence that it actually happened.  

    That is a lie.  You are at best waiting for it to be spoonfed to you -
but when you are presented with evidence you just try to change the
subject.  Were you truly looking you would get off your fat ass and into a
library.

    By the way - what would "physical evidence" of an _unsuccessful_ X-ray
castration attempt be?  The unsterile man?  In that case you too would be
physical evidence unless you are lying about having a son.  The X-ray
machine? In that case every hospital contains physical evidence of an
X-ray castration experiment.  Photos of someone pointing a weird device at
the genitals?  How do you know X-rays are coming out of it or what the
purpose is?

    Remember, the Blankenburg letter agreed with your contention that it
was not very feasible.  So at best we are looking for physical evidence of
failed experiments, and I cannot think of anything _except_ documents such
as the Brack letter, whose authenticity was supported by the Blankenburg
letter.  I have explained above why the victims of the failed experiments,
the apparatus, and photos (even if they had been taken, which there is no
reason to expect) all fail to establish the case. 

    Where is your evidence that the Brack letter was forged by the NKVD or
anyone else?  Burden of proof is on you for that one.  Sorry about that.


>># It is just one more example of zero physical evidence. 
>
>>Just as "revisionists" can provide no physical evidence
>>that Dresden was ever bombed.
>
>	Your adamant pretense not to be able to see the difference does not 
>mean there is no difference.  

    He's got it wrong - bombed, yes.  Major fire, yes.  Major firestorm
directly and intentionally caused by bombing - there is a key piece of
physical evidence you have yet to produce.  And you know my objection is
completely legitimate.  What evidence do you have for this firestorm and
its different air circulation patterns except eyewitness testimony?  What
physical evidence do you even have that the bombs _actually_ ignited the
fires?  You have yet to present it.  And you know it. 

    Give it up, child.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 26 05:08:43 PDT 1996
Article: 53321 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Flying south for a few days...
Date: 25 Jul 1996 15:32:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4t8i4v$4pq@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t0o4c$k45@bell.maths.tcd.ie>  <4t5re9$o89@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4t75jn$2cd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t75jn$2cd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 24 Jul 1996 11:52:57 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
>wrote:
>>Close - try the United States Attorney and the FBI (Tampa), rather than 
>>the State AG. They seem to take a very dim view of international extortion.
>
>>..which reminds me... I'm flying south on business tomorrow, to speak with 
>>some folks who find Mr. Giwer's articles of more than casual interest, and 
>>may not have access for a few days - I'll catch up on my email from the 
>>hotel, once I get settled.
>
>	Golly.  And I am worth such an expense.  A telephone will not do.  

    Now, where did he say you were the only, or even principal, topic of
dicussion?  In fact, where did he say that you were on the agenda at all?
Nowhere, of course.

    You bit like a brainless fish.  Dresdenhuggers are very stupid.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 26 05:08:44 PDT 1996
Article: 53332 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 25 Jul 1996 12:01:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4t85ok$ot7@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4t0vjb$66h@access5.digex.net> <4t31ln$nqp@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4t3t7r$kus@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t3t7r$kus@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 23 Jul 1996 10:20:55 -0700, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4t0vjb$66h@access5.digex.net>,
>>Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>>>In article <4sidot$k9i@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>	And remember we have even been informed that the tearing agent was
>>>>removed.  Of course those who said it failed to note the date was years
>>>>earlier.
>>>
>>>    Wrong AGAIN, Matt.  The indicator was removed in 1944.  The Kremas
>>                             ^^^^^^^^^
>>>commenced operation in 1943.  Tell us again about "years earlier?"
>
>>Don't you mean that the lachrymogen was removed?
>
>	1941 actually.  It cut costs and they used all the detectors 
>everyone makes such an issue of.  

    Once again, this is merely a symptom of Mr. Giwer's illiteracy or
early-onset Alzheimer's (or an outright lie).  The amount of lachrymogen
was _reduced_ in 1941.  But not reduced to zero.  The complete elimination
came in 1944. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 26 05:08:45 PDT 1996
Article: 53335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Competition to Neo-Nazi Nizkor
Date: 25 Jul 1996 10:20:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4t7vrb$l07@access5.digex.net>
References: <22JUL199610241222@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <034303Z24071996@anon.penet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:53335 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1961 alt.politics.white-power:37152

In article <034303Z24071996@anon.penet.fi>,
Vyshinsky  wrote:
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu writes:

[Giwer quotes snipped]

>And what was the original context of these articals?  Was it sarcasm?
>This is what makes Nizkor such a lousy archiver, taking peoples posts
>out of context.

    Since the first article quoted was an original post, not a followup,
and was quoted in its entirety, just how is it taken out of context?

>Nizkor does this because of the lousy performance by
>anti-racists in rebuttals to racists and opponents of the Holocaust.

    Because!  I!  Say!  So! - the most commonly cited reference work by
revisionists.

[remainder deleted]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 26 05:08:46 PDT 1996
Article: 53356 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Score -- posting stats, June 22-July 19
Date: 26 Jul 1996 00:16:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4t9gqi$odo@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t6aum$4fq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4t7bi7$iu9@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <25JUL199609164840@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4t90uq$sk3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t90uq$sk3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Jul 1996 09:16 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
>>    Gee, given all his honors [your father] must be pretty disappointed
>>in you...
>
>	Have you ever spent any time when you jump at every phone call with the
>expectation of it being the last bad news about him there can be?  Do you
>really think I feel kindly towards you or anyone who makes comments like that
>about him?  Do you think there was anything but rage after hearing about this
>phone call?

    I thought you didn't have hot buttons.



>	Do you consider that response unnatural?

    I thought you considered emotional responses like that as something to
be scorned.


>	Or is this a new phase of your harrassment campaign?  
>
>>    Actually, all he can do is testify to the contents of the phone call. 
>>    If he is honest (not a given being that he is related to you), there
>>    won't be all that much interesting to come from the interview.
>
>You mean there will be in interest in a person identifying himself as Ken
>McVay called him?

    One non-obscene phone call does not constitute harrassment.


>And then it follows that I attempted to email McVay to get to the bottom of it
>and I find a bot at his address rejecting my email.  So he refused contact
>with me.  So I go public with the best information I have.  And as soon
>as I have different information I post that.  I have no way to contact
>that is not on my LD bill.  

    You posted the whois information which includes a street address. 
Postage stamps show up on your LD bill?  What an interesting phone company
you have.

    Could not get a friend (assuming you have one) to send a message for
you?  But I suppose a mere 163 IQ type could not think of that.

[remainder snipped]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Jul 26 05:08:46 PDT 1996
Article: 53362 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 25 Jul 1996 10:35:33 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4t80nl$ll9@access5.digex.net>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80581 alt.revisionism:53362 talk.politics.european-union:5059

In article ,
Ole Kreiberg  wrote:
>Holger Skok wrote
>>
>>
>>I am still waiting, too, on an explanation for the dismissal of all the
>>documents,
>>testimonies and circumstantial evidence all corroborating the mass gassings
>>at Auschwitz and other extermination camps. Revisionists have to disregard
>>all this and I'd like to know what they give as a reason for doing so. 
>
>If you take a closer look on following websites
>
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg  or
>http://www.codoh.com
>
>you will find answers. 

    Mind you, he did not say they would be _good_ answers....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:38 PDT 1996
Article: 53372 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: The threatened lawsuit
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 25 Jul 1996 10:28:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4t80ai$lb8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4svikf$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4t2spm$rmk@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t4otk$avo@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:53372 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:351

In article <4t4otk$avo@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 23 Jul 1996 16:57:42 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>	And non-paranoid reading what I posted knows that I have never
>>>threatened a lawsuit and there have been many posts in that regard.  
>
>>	You sure did talk a lot about a RICO suit, including asking if anyone
>>would be interested.
>
>	Is asking a threat?  In what manner?

    Try manner 2 for threat, manner 2b for threaten, entry 2 for menace.
Your show of intention may have been just a show, but it fits the
definition.

1. threat \'thret\ n [ME thret coercion, threat, fr. OE thre-at coercion;
   akin to MHG] dro-z annoyance, L trudere to push, thrust 1: an
   expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage 2: something
   that threatens

threat.en \'thret-*n\ \'thret-nin, -*n-in\ \'thret-nin-le-, -*n-in-\ vb or
   threat.en.ing 1: to utter threats against 2a: to give signs or warning
   of : PORTEND 2b: to hang over as a threat : MENACE 1: to utter threats
   2: to portend evilEATEN may imply an impersonal warning of trouble,
   punishment, or retribution; MENACE implies alarming by a definitely
   hostile aspect or character - threat.en.ing.ly av SYN syn THREATEN,
   MENACE mean to forecast danger or evil. THR

1. men.ace \'men-*s\ n [ME, fr. MF, fr. L minacia, fr. minac-, minax
   threatening, fr]. minari to threaten - more at MOUNT 1: a show of
   intention to inflict harm : THREAT 2a: someone or something that
   represents a threat
   : DANGER 2b: a person who causes annoyance : NUISANCE
2. menace \-*-sin-le-\ vt 1: to make a show of intention to harm 2:
   ENDANGER : to act in a threatening manner - men.ac.ing.ly av


>Or are you as stupid as the attorneys here?  
>
>
>	You are very dumb.  

    No, you are very illiterate, very dishonest, and very trollish.  But
you blew the troll again, fool.  It fits within accepted meanings of
"threat."

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:39 PDT 1996
Article: 53377 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Flying south for a few days...
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:35:06 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <4t9asq$l51@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t0o4c$k45@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t75jn$2cd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t8i4v$4pq@access5.digex.net> <4t95kj$29b@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t95kj$29b@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Jul 1996 15:32:47 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4t75jn$2cd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 24 Jul 1996 11:52:57 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
>>>wrote:
>>>>Close - try the United States Attorney and the FBI (Tampa), rather than 
>>>>the State AG. They seem to take a very dim view of international extortion.
>>>
>>>>..which reminds me... I'm flying south on business tomorrow, to speak with 
>>>>some folks who find Mr. Giwer's articles of more than casual interest, and 
>>>>may not have access for a few days - I'll catch up on my email from the 
>>>>hotel, once I get settled.
>>>
>>>	Golly.  And I am worth such an expense.  A telephone will not do.  
>
>>    Now, where did he say you were the only, or even principal, topic of
>>dicussion?  In fact, where did he say that you were on the agenda at all?
>>Nowhere, of course.
>
>	Where is anything else mentioned?  And days?  	

    You still seem to have this insane notion that what is not explicitly
mentioned does not exist.

    Your critical thinking skills are in need of a tune-up.

    If Ken had said he was going to have a business meeting with people
who had more than a casual interest in football, obviously you would have
thought he was attending a meeting to start an NFL franchise. 

    It is a wonder you managed to pass college with that kind of logic
running through your brain.


>>    You bit like a brainless fish.  Dresdenhuggers are very stupid.
>
>	You keep missing the point.

    Not at all.

>I am not in the least interested in what your position on Dresden is.

    If you think this is about Dresden, you have missed the point indeed.


>It is not my mission in life to preserve the memory
>of Dresden.  

    You keep going on about physical evidence.  You said you could
reconstruct what happened at Dresden from physical evidence alone, no
eyewitness testimony needed.  I challenged your claim.  And there is one
crucial piece of physical evidence you have not produced.  You have not
met the challenge.

    We could run this with quite a few things you believe there is
adequate physical evidence to establish without reliance on any eyewitness
testimony.  I just happened to use Dresden as an example.  It has
established my point quite well, whether you miss it (or pretend to) or
not. 

    Have I dumbed this down enough for you or do you need it in words of
one syllable?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:40 PDT 1996
Article: 53412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ethnic groups
Date: 24 Jul 1996 23:27:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4t6pin$fgg@access1.digex.net>
References: <4svgko$ma9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t28as$q6p@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <6c2_9607231742@tor250.org> <4t6d4j$f3r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4t6d4j$f3r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Your honest opinion would be appreciated.  

    You are the person in this newsgroup least entitled to request
honesty.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:40 PDT 1996
Article: 53422 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One of Mr. Giwer's rare true statements
Date: 25 Jul 1996 15:22:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4t8hi6$4ai@access5.digex.net>
References: <31F3FC58.43ED@unb.ca> <4t14g3$ev2@news.enter.net> <4t5erd$dlk@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t702h$ah@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t702h$ah@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>This is all getting fascinating though.  As I have said, I do hope it 
>was a criminal filing and a criminal investigation.  That way the scope
>and direction are up to the American investigator.  
>
>And I, not having filed complaint one, will not come off looking like 
>the holohuggers will look.  

    I do believe this is true, though not in the way Matt thinks.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:41 PDT 1996
Article: 53481 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.stealth.net!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in the Baltics
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:54:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <4t9c0s$ltk@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t6llb$c5e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t6llb$c5e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>
>The trainload of Berlin's Jews sent to Kaunas in Lithuania on
>November 17 probably fared no better.  .... As in the other Baltic states,
>the Soviet secret police had deported 40,000 Lithuanians to Siberia in
>1940. .... When the tide turned in June, 1941, and the Russians were
>driven out, the Lithuanians took revenge on the 60,000 remaining Jews,
>liquidating 3,800 in Kaunas alone.  Hundreds of the rest, Goebbels
>learned, were being shot. p. 377

    Note that Irving puts the blame on the Lithuanians taking revenge, not
on the SS.  But one Einsatzgruppen document - the Stahlecker memo, if
memory serves; I can confirm this if need be - mentions that the SS
instigated the initial "spontaneous" pogroms, and recruited Lithuanian
auxiliaries to help with the slaughter.



>Like Lithuania, Latvia had begun killing its Jews soon after
>Barbarossa began, in revenge for the 33,038 Latvians kidnapped or murdered
>by the Soviet secret police since June 1940.  In July 1941, there had been
>70,000 Jews in Latvia -- the rest, some thirty thousand, had fled with
>their Russian benefactors.  German sonderkommandos, manned by the Latvian
>auxiliary police, usually relatives of the Russians' victims, had murdered
>about 30,000 Jews by October 1941.  Hitler ordered a big concentration
>camp built just outside Riga to house the Jews expelled from the Reich and
>the occupied Czech territories. p. 378

    At least here Irving admits the SS recruited the natives.


>On the last day of November, on the orders of the local SS
>commander .... 4,000 of Riga's unwanted Jews were trucked five miles down
>the Dvinsk highway to Skiatowa, plundered, and machine gunned into two or
>three pits.  According to one army colonel who witnessed it, a trainload
>of Jews from Berlin -- those expelled three days before -- arrived in the
>midst of this Aktion; its passengers were taken straight out to the pits
>and shot.  This happened even as Hitler .... was instructing Himmler that
>these Berlin Jews were not to be liquidated. p. 379
>
>Source: Irving, David, *Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich* Focal
>Point: 1996;
>US Distributor: IHR, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Fx: 714 631 0981
>(copied from back flyleaf)
>
>COMMENTS:
>
>1)  David Irving is dismissed as a *denier* by the conventionalists on
>this board, and yet there is more excrutiating detail on just these three
>pages than in scores of other biographies about top Nazis.  Moreover, he
>details practically by train every transport of Berlin Jews throughout the
>war (because Goebbels' political ascendancy came in that city.)  Indeed,
>passages like the above dot the last 200 pages of the book.
>
>2)  Regular US publishers will not publish this book.  Therefore, to
>obtain this text, one must either special order from the UK or go through
>the IHR.  Whatever one thinks of the IHR, they have in their possession a
>very detailed study of an important aspect of the history of the Third
>Reich.  If someone balks at buying from the IHR, then they should try to
>get this book mainstreamed.
>
>3)  The above three excerpts are buttressed by three finely printed pages
>of footnotes, almost all of them keyed to primary documentation.  About
>the only secondary text referenced throughout is the German version of
>Reitlinger's book. Footnotes comprise about 170 pages of fine text.

    The problem is not his lack of footnotes; it's that he takes
questionable (at least) interpretations of the material.



>4)  The passages above correlate well with Arno Mayer's take on the Baltic
>situation.  In addition, it triangulates well with the testimony of a
>Lithuanian Jewish woman that I posted three weeks ago.

    Arno Mayer's take is, in my opinion, virtually worthless.  About a
year and a half ago, I was engaged in a debate with someone about Mayer,
and produced solid primary material contrary to his thesis which Mayer
completely ignored. 


>5)  Among other things, it demonstrates that the Nazis were not always the
>prime movers of these atrocities.  Native populations in the Soviet Union,
>acting out their own hatreds and prejudices, frequently anticipated German
>policy by murdering on their own.

    I see I shall have to get out my archives and repost some of the
quotes from the Einsatzgruppen reports.


>6)  The passages also give an indication of the scope of attempts by Jews
>in front of the advancing German armies to flee.  My guess would be that
>most Baltic Jews would flee to the next metropolis: Leningrad, where
>650,000 would die in the three year siege.
>
>7)  The passages suggest the extent to which the Jews were not the only
>ones to be subjected to savage deportations and executions.  I have
>discussed the uniqueness of the Jewish Holocaust elsewhere.

    Russian POWs were treated criminally - to the point where at least one
German officer wrote a memo saying it was counterproductive, that the
Russians dared no surrender for fear of the horrible treatment they would
receive at German hands.


>8)  The passages show how -- in simple increments of 1,000 man trains --
>the Holocaust was carried out.  Keep in mind that the war went on for
>almost _four years_ after the German invasion of Russia.
>
>9)  The passages indicate the extent to which there _were_ labor camps
>beyond the extermination camp umbrella (the Sobibor-Treblinka-Belzec
>axis).
>
>10)  Finally, the last sentence of the last paragraph brings to notice the
>famous telephone log where Hitler instructed Himmler not to liquidate the
>1,000 man transport of Berlin Jews.  When Irving first found this datum,
>he concluded that no liquidation took place.  Since he was the only
>historian to ever look at these things, he trumpeted the fact in his first
>Hitler biography.  He was excoriated for this, especially when it was
>shown, I believe by Lucy Dawidowicz, that that transport had been shot. 
>Nevertheless, it is an interesting datum, reflecting the ambiguity of the
>entire process.

    You have not grasped Dawidowicz's objection.  From memory, the log
read:

    Arrest Jakelius
    Molotov's son
    Transport of Jews from Berlin
    No liquidation


Dawidowicz interprets this as being one complete thought: Jakelius,
believed (erroneously, it turns out) to be Molotov's son, was on a
transport and was to be saved alive.

    I observe that if Hitler ordered no liquidation, who gave the order to
liquidate other transports, and why was nobody punished for this mass
murder that (if Irving is right) went on without Hitler's orders and
contrary to his wishes?

    Posted and emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:41 PDT 1996
Article: 53505 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summary:
Date: 26 Jul 1996 11:51:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <4tapi2$bpk@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4t6k5u$hm4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t7vh3$kl0@access5.digex.net> <4t8val$e76@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t8val$e76@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Jul 1996 10:14:59 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4t6k5u$hm4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:15:42 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>>># Not ONE person ever found deliberately sterilized by 
>>>># X-Rays by the Nazis.  
>>>
>>>>Just for the record, how do you know this? I will try
>>>>and consult some sources to see if, indeed, no such
>>>>person was found.
>>>
>>>>Considering that the experiments took place in Auschwitz,
>>>>it is very possible that no one was found; I don't know,
>>>>and I will try to find out.  
>>>
>>>	Perhaps you will find the X-Ray machine at least?  
>
>>    And just what would that prove, seeing as X-ray machines have
>>perfectly ordinary uses?  Trolling, trolling....
>
>
>>>>Moreover, the Nazi doctors arrived at the conclusion
>>>>that the method didn't work that well, and that surgical
>>>>castration is better.
>>>
>>>	None of that kind found either.
>
>>    How do you know this?  Making it up as you go, of course.
>
>
>>>>But this is not the major issue; the major issue is that
>>>>a leading Nazi official, Oberfuehrer Victor Brack, asked
>>>>that not *all* Jews be killed, but that 20-30 percent will
>>>>be spared and used for slave labor, after being sterilized.
>>>
>>>	So where are they among the survivors?
>>>
>>>>This is the main point, and it's a document, which, 
>>>>apparently, "revisionists" now acknowledge to fall within 
>>>>the realm of physical evidence.
>>>
>>>	I speak only for myself.  I am still looking for real physical 
>>>evidence that it actually happened.  
>
>>    That is a lie.  You are at best waiting for it to be spoonfed to you -
>>but when you are presented with evidence you just try to change the
>>subject.  Were you truly looking you would get off your fat ass and into a
>>library.
>
>Rather you would have me conduct a fruitless search for what does not exist.

    Once again: how do you know it does not exist if you have not even
looked?


>>    By the way - what would "physical evidence" of an _unsuccessful_ X-ray
>>castration attempt be?  The unsterile man?  In that case you too would be
>>physical evidence unless you are lying about having a son.  The X-ray
>>machine? In that case every hospital contains physical evidence of an
>>X-ray castration experiment.  Photos of someone pointing a weird device at
>>the genitals?  How do you know X-rays are coming out of it or what the
>>purpose is?
>
>That puts x-ray machines in the same category with fumigants and showerheads
>with stolen copper plumbing, does it not?  

    I have explained twice before that the issue with the showerheads and
plumbing is that there are no plans and no orders in the Bauleitung files
for shower plumbing though all other plumbing is shown in the plans.

    Are you lying again or is this early-onset Alzheimer's?

    Now answer the questions.

    What would physical evidence of an unsuccessful X-ray castration
experiment be?  Can you name anything except documents?  I thought not. 

    You called documents physical evidence before.  If you want to
challenge the Brack letter as a forgery then burden of proof is on you.
Where is your evidence of forgery of the Brack letter?

    How do you know what does not exist?

    You have failed to address any of the issues raised, and once again
falsely stated an issue that has been explained to you twice before.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:42 PDT 1996
Article: 53535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!cass.ma02.bull.com!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:22:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4t9a4i$kgh@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <6bd_9607231742@tor250.org> <4t6eg1$g9l@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t6eg1$g9l@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>Are you ready to get back to actually discussing the terrible effects of
>gassing such as the gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing that it the effect
>of cyanide?  

    Perhaps you could for the first time find the witness who said such a
thing.

    Now pay real close attention, Matt.  Focus very hard here.

    I said witness.

    I did not say writer who exaggerated the words of a witness.

    Do you think you can figure out the difference between the two?  It
would be greatly appreciated.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:43 PDT 1996
Article: 53537 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Another clown claims psychic powers
Date: 26 Jul 1996 12:08:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <4taqhl$ckp@access5.digex.net>
References: <22JUL199610241222@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <034303Z24071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t7vrb$l07@access5.digex.net> <125310Z26071996@anon.penet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:53537 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1986 alt.politics.white-power:37236

In article <125310Z26071996@anon.penet.fi>,
Vyshinsky  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net writes:
>
>> In article <034303Z24071996@anon.penet.fi>,
>> Vyshinsky  wrote:
>> >dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu writes:
>> 
>> [Giwer quotes snipped]
>> 
>> >And what was the original context of these articals?  Was it sarcasm?
>> >This is what makes Nizkor such a lousy archiver, taking peoples posts
>> >out of context.
>> 
>>     Since the first article quoted was an original post, not a followup,
>> and was quoted in its entirety, just how is it taken out of context?
>
>The context of what everybody else was saying when Mr. Giwer's articles
>were current.  Was Mr. Giwer reacting to Mike Stein?  There's no way
>to tell by looking at Nizkor, because the giwer.matt files will only
>contain files from Matt Giwer.  Understand?

    Sure.  How will looking at the files on your news server help you any
better?  Or read everything in the conference which was posted to DejaNews
since the beginning of this year.  Will you really be any better informed?

[snip]

>> >Nizkor does this because of the lousy performance by
>> >anti-racists in rebuttals to racists and opponents of the Holocaust.
>> 
>>     Because!  I!  Say!  So! - the most commonly cited reference work by
>> revisionists.
>
>"Everybody knows that the races are equal because everyone I respect says
>they are equal."
>
>"Everybody knows that the Holocaust is true because everyone I respect says
>the Holocaust is true."
>
>Two of your axioms, and believed in by the majority.

    Both are logical fallacies, and they are not mine.  Try to get your
money back from whoever sold you that mindreading course.


>As a wannabe open minded radical, I certainly respect people who don't
>agree with me, but mainstreamer's like you Holocauster's, accept axioms,
>and hate people who disagree with it.

    Wrong twice.  Try to get your money back from whoever sold you that
mindreading course.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:43 PDT 1996
Article: 53560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 26 Jul 1996 19:08:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4tbj5f$24g@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4sug9t$hh2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31F38BC2.48F4@gryn.org> <4t1ff2$al0@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t1ff2$al0@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:10:10 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>         It was recently observed that when the holohugger story changes it is those on the
>>> other side who are accused of changing.
>
>>Matt, you changed your story about Dahlman and his provider so many
>>times that it must have worn out the phosphor on at least one screen.
>
>Because I have no intention of leading him to exactly what he did wrong that
>caused it to be shut down.  It is very simple and straightfoward.  It is also
>very easy to overlook.  He continues to overlook the reason.  

    In other words, you openly admit you deliberately lied at least two
out of the three times.  Now that we have your completely candid admission
that you are a wilful liar, the only question is how many other lies you
have told, including about your scientific knowledge.

    Obviously nothing at all you say can be trusted, since you have now
revealed your willingness to lie when it suits your purposes.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:44 PDT 1996
Article: 53568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: auschwitz:myths and facts
Supersedes: <4tbg93$s8c@access5.digex.net>
Date: 26 Jul 1996 18:49:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <4tbi1a$1a9@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4t4nkl$f45@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31F66475.6B68@gryn.org> <4t6t68$74h@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t6t68$74h@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:59:17 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

[deletion which I hope will not be considered excessive]

>>>         Excessive delitions spark great curiosity.

    You should study the revisionist writings sometime.


>
>>The rest of the posting is available. Go and get it, Matt. 
>
>>You're the one who refuses to provide URLs - particularly for stuff that
>>doesn't exist. Now *YOU* point to the deletion of excess and
>>inconsequential material and hint at all sorts of things.
>
>>Stop being so damned paranoid!
>
>Another former inmate [of Belsen], Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape
>from death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a
>Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to the
>[Belsen] camp gas chamber at least six times." The newspaper account went on
>to relate: "Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women
>and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't
>know how he was able to survive." In an effort to explain the miracle, Peer
>mused: "Maybe children resist better, I don't know."   
>
>	When people get gassed six times and live to tell about, I do not 
>consider it paranoia.

    Peer was not testifying here.  We were talking about deletions.  Your
reference to Peer is a non-sequitur.

    However, let's just cut this short.  You say Peer is a Holocaust
survivor and a liar or fantasist, so no eyewitness can be trusted.  Many
documents came from Soviet sources and the Soviets were known to forge
documents, so all documents are forged.

    Greg Raven denies gassing and he has told proven lies.  Mark Weber
denies gassing and has told proven lies by omission at least.  The Lachout
Document is a forgery.  Therefore all revisionists must be considered
liars and all revisionist evidence forgeries.

    Works for me.

    When presented with a revisionist argument you don't like, you say, "I
speak for myself."  But you do not allow that same right to the witnesses. 
Any witness you cannot refute, you simply call up Peer and pretend that
Peer invalidates the testimony of the other witness, that the other
witness must speak for both himself and Peer.  Why can I not call up Raven
and use him to invalidate you?  Your hypocrisy is in full bloom. 


>And then I was told that she survived Auschwitz ONLY because of her age and
>that everyone younger than her was gassed immediately upon arrival.  And then
>I find other stories of younger children surviving.

    It depends on the date of arrival and a few other factors.  Policies
changed over time.


>	Does the inconsistancy of the true truths never bother you?  

    If you had oatmeal for breakfast today, are you being inconsistent if
you tell me you had corn flakes for breakfast yesterday?  Obviously you
must think so.


>>> >Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
>>> >   Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because
>>> >   of weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau?
>>> 
>>> >A. Also to be gassed.
>>> 
>>>         Anne Frank?
>
>>Non-sequitur?
>
>	No, Anne Frank.  
>
>	And then there is Wiesel and his father who chose to be evacuated from
>Auschwitz rather than liberated by the Russians.

    Because they were afraid that the SS was going to kill everyone who
chose to remain behind. 

    Your omission of this fact is dishonest and lacks integrity.

    The fact that the SS did not do this does not make it impossible for
them to believe it.



>	Trying to make consistent sense out of the conflicting stories is quite
>impossible.  

    Only for someone with your microscopic IQ.  People _are_ inconsistent.
People are not governed by scientific laws.  If you ate corn flakes
yesterday, is it impossible for you to eat oatmeal today?  No.  What is
impossible is for you to eat only cornflakes yesterday and also eat
nothing but oatmeal yesterday.

    Since you recounted three contradictory true truths about who did what
and why about Rack Jite - and those all concerned the _same_ event, and so
_actually are_ impossible to reconcile, we must conclude that you are
either insane or a liar.


>The true issue is that those who witness the impossible were not witnesses at
>all.  

    Shouting "It's impossible!  I'm a scientist and I say so!" does not
make it impossible.  Peer I agree is so highly improbable that for all
practical purposes we may call it impossible.  Other things you have yet
to back up. When I pressed the point about cremation energy, you ran away. 
Would you like to continue that discussion?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:45 PDT 1996
Article: 53574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them Belsen Blues
Date: 26 Jul 1996 11:58:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4tapv5$c56@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t69ob$9bn@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t69ob$9bn@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Some gassings are deadlier than others.  
>
>
>Another former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from 
>death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a
>Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to the
>[Belsen] camp gas chamber at least six times." The newspaper account went
>on to relate: "Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the
>women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer
>doesn't know how he was able to survive." In an effort to explain the
>miracle, Peer mused: "Maybe children resist better, I don't know." 
>
>
>	This is an excellent example of false memory syndrome.

    I agree.  But so are most of your posts that try to claim something
about the history of discussions here.  Want to try again about who did
what and why concerning Rack Jite's web site?  You're at three mutually
contradictory stories and counting.

    Your rule seems to be that if one eyewitness is unreliable then all
are.  Of course you focus on the survivors and carefully avoid the SS
testimonies, including the ones from German trials.

    If you are a scientist and you are unreliable (and you are), then all
scientists are unreliable.

    What is the difference?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:45 PDT 1996
Article: 53577 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 26 Jul 1996 19:19:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4tbjpj$2hu@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4skfu8$c9v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4sphu1$jv2@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sphu1$jv2@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jul 1996 17:21:14 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
>># Yes.  Matt has argued, and I don't see a hole in his 
>># argument, that the document he quotes on ZB specifically 
>># references wood snippets and NOT Erco cubes.
>
>>The book by Dr. Gerhard Peters, General Manager of Degesch,
>>was published in 1933. It not only mentions the Erco carrier,
>>it even has a photograph of the Erco pellets.
>	
>The Degesh document SPECIFICALLY mentions the type used as a fumigant as
>using wood pulp.  There were certainly other types used for other
>purposes.

     Your evidence?  What do you think those purposes were?

>The book does NOT (at least as far a cited, meaning it
>probably does some place else) connect carriers to usage. 

    Would you like to look at the title of the book one of these
centuries? 

    "Schaedlingsbekaempfung."

    Need help finding a German dictionary?

>You can not change that.  You can only and in honesty, post a section of
>the book connecting the carrier with the usage.  Or will I have to be
>the one to find and post that also?  

    Look at the TITLE, Matt.

    Are we keeping you awake?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:46 PDT 1996
Article: 53586 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mind like a steel sieve...
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 26 Jul 1996 11:40:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <4taou3$b9c@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t6eg1$g9l@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4t9a4i$kgh@access5.digex.net> <4t9qs2$cnc@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t9qs2$cnc@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Jul 1996 22:22:10 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4t6eg1$g9l@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>Are you ready to get back to actually discussing the terrible effects of
>>>gassing such as the gelatinous masses of flesh and clothing that it the effect
>>>of cyanide?  
>
>>    Perhaps you could for the first time find the witness who said such a
>>thing.
>
>>    Now pay real close attention, Matt.  Focus very hard here.
>
>>    I said witness.  
>
>	Benard Naumann reports it.  

    Where is the witness upon whose words he relied?


>>    I did not say writer who exaggerated the words of a witness.
>
>>    Do you think you can figure out the difference between the two?  It
>>would be greatly appreciated.
>
>	What I do not see is the difference between witnesses who make it 
>up and writers who exaggerate.

    There is no difference.  There is, however, a difference between
witnesses who don't make it up and writers who exaggerate.


>When it is pointed out that the witnesses report things that can not happen,
>that are contradictory and such you folks defend them as gospel.

    First you must demonstrate what it is that you claim cannot happen.
You have loudly asserted many things and waved your hands vigorously with
fancy buzzwords like "nucleated condensation" and "laminate flow."  But
somehow you never quite get around to actually getting out the calculator
and some references to support your loud assertions and handwaving.

    I tried to pin you down on energy needed to boil off the water to
ignite a corpse.  You ran away.  From your behavior, the most obvious
conclusion is that you are a fraud who has a very vague and superficial
knowledge which you pretend is much deeper.


>Now you want to try to blame the writer for the report when that has only 
>been a peripheral issue.
>
>I have posted Hoess himself reporting one his witnessing the first gassing
>wearing a gas mask, the gas being thrown in and the people dying instantly.
>Where were you questioning that witness?

    What part of that do you question?

    Hoess cannot wear a gas mask?

    People cannot die "instantly?"  Well, literally speaking, that would
be true.  But the concept of brain death was not around back then.  And
there is some slop in "instantly."

    Let me ask you this: how fast do you say a person exposed to, say, a
500ppm concentration of cyanide would drop to the floor after exposure,
and what is your source for your figure?


>I have a witness who was gassed six times and lived to tell about it.  Where
>were you then?  And before you repeat the criticism, he is in the same age
>range and Elie Wiesel at the time and he is gospel.

    I do not believe that he was gassed six times, and I do not take him
as gospel.  I do reject witnesses who say the impossible.  However, I do
not take your word for what is impossible, and I allow for the vagaries of
language which you do not.  I use many other factors in evaluating
eyewitness testimony which you do not.  You pretend that every word must
be literally true or else the whole thing must be made up.

    Your eyewitness testimony is definitely worthless.  You reported that
someone mentioned potatoes being part of the seder, when in fact nobody
did - the question was whether they could be eaten on Passover, which is
not the same thing as the seder.

    And that was only a few days between what I wrote and what your flaky
memory invented.

    Yet you pretend you can accurately remember science from years ago.

    You have a memory like a steel sieve.  I would not believe any claim
you make without documentation, not even what you had for breakfast day
before yesterday.  That says nothing about eyewitnesses in general, that
is a result of observation of literal megabytes of postings issuing from
your very confused mind and applies to you alone.

    If one lying eyewitness discredits all eyewitnesses, why does not one
lying scientist (and there are records of falsified research) discredit
all scientists?


>So why the sudden interest in the writer when you have demonstrated no
>interest in the direct quotations of the people who spoke the ridiculous 
>words in the first place?  

    Once again you suffer from the insane idea that what you do not see
does not exist.

    Now, getting back to the difference between witnesses who make it up
and writers who exaggerage: you said that the "gelatinous mass" was the
result of cyanide.  But not even Naumann said that cyanide was the cause.

   You made that up, along with the potatotes part of the seder and many
other things, like the three contradictory stories about who did what
about Rack Jite and why.

    So we see that you make things up here.  Why should anyone believe any
of your because-I-say-so claims?  You are a liar who makes things up.  I
cannot change that.  Only you can change that.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:47 PDT 1996
Article: 53587 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 26 Jul 1996 18:00:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <4tbf5l$ra4@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4t4nkl$f45@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31F66475.6B68@gryn.org> <4t6t68$74h@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t6t68$74h@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:59:17 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

[deletion which I hope will not be considered excessive]

>>>         Excessive delitions spark great curiosity.

    You should study the revisionist writings sometime.


>
>>The rest of the posting is available. Go and get it, Matt. 
>
>>You're the one who refuses to provide URLs - particularly for stuff that
>>doesn't exist. Now *YOU* point to the deletion of excess and
>>inconsequential material and hint at all sorts of things.
>
>>Stop being so damned paranoid!
>
>Another former inmate [of Belsen], Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape
>from death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a
>Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to the
>[Belsen] camp gas chamber at least six times." The newspaper account went on
>to relate: "Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women
>and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't
>know how he was able to survive." In an effort to explain the miracle, Peer
>mused: "Maybe children resist better, I don't know."   
>
>	When people get gassed six times and live to tell about, I do not 
>consider it paranoia.

    Peer was not testifying here.  We were talking about deletions.  Your
reference to Peer is a non-sequitur.

    However, let's just cut this short.  You say Peer is a Holocaust
survivor and a liar or fantasist, so no eyewitness can be trusted.

    Greg Raven denies gassing and he is a proven liar.  Mark Weber denies
gassing and is a proven liar.  Therefore you too are a liar.

    Works for me.


>And then I was told that she survived Auschwitz ONLY because of her age and
>that everyone younger than her was gassed immediately upon arrival.  And then
>I find other stories of younger children surviving.

    It depends on the date of arrival and a few other factors.  Policies
changed over time.


>	Does the inconsistancy of the true truths never bother you?  

    If you had oatmeal for breakfast today, are you being inconsistent if
you tell me you had corn flakes for breakfast yesterday?  Obviously you
must think so.


>>> >Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
>>> >   Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because
>>> >   of weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau?
>>> 
>>> >A. Also to be gassed.
>>> 
>>>         Anne Frank?
>
>>Non-sequitur?
>
>	No, Anne Frank.  
>
>	And then there is Wiesel and his father who chose to be evacuated from
>Auschwitz rather than liberated by the Russians.

    Because they were afraid that the SS was going to kill everyone who
chose to remain behind. 

    Your omission of this fact is dishonest and lacks integrity.

    The fact that the SS did not do this does not make it impossible for 



>	Trying to make consistent sense out of the conflicting stories is quite
>impossible.  

    Only for someone with your microscopic IQ.  People _are_ inconsistent.
People are not governed by scientific laws.  If you ate corn flakes
yesterday, is it impossible for you to eat oatmeal today?  No.  What is
impossible is for you to eat only cornflakes yesterday and also eat
nothing but oatmeal yesterday.

    Since you recounted three contradictory true truths about who did what
and why about Rack Jite - and those all concerned the _same_ event, and so
_actually are_ impossible to reconcile, we must conclude that you are
either insane or a liar.


>The true issue is that those who witness the impossible were not witnesses at
>all.  

    Shouting "It's impossible!  I'm a scientist and I say so!" does not
make it impossible.  Peer I agree is impossible.  Other things you have
yet to back up.  When I pressed the point about cremation energy, you ran
away.  Would you like to continue that discussion?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:48 PDT 1996
Article: 53595 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 26 Jul 1996 19:04:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4tbitu$20r@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4spg9d$fd6@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4stv7e$bvt@access5.digex.net> <4sug9t$hh2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4sug9t$hh2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1996 15:08:30 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4spg9d$fd6@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 19 Jul 1996 15:08:37 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>>    I think for this discussion of color perception it would be
>>>>instructive to look at http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/sexist.html.
>>>>"People have a tendency to break out laughing when I identify colors. I
>>>>can see them all. I just see them differently."
>>>
>>>>    Yet Mr. Giwer pretends that a discrepancy between "mauve" and "blue" 
>>>>in two different witnesses' statements is significant, and that silica gel
>>>>NEVER looks mauve.
>>>
>>>>    Why can it not be that Dr. Nyiszli just sees colors differently?
>>>
>>>>    I have told Mr. Giwer what he needs to do to get people to stop
>>>>calling him a lying troll.  He is a very slow learner. 
>>>
>>>	That not the way it works.  It is simply different.  One would see 
>>>three distinctly different colors and in comparison identify them
>>>properly.  
>
>>    Then why do people laugh when you identify colors?  It sounds as if
>>you do not identify them properly.  So why do you take a possible shade
>>identification discrepancy as evidence?
>
>	You would have to see it to understand it, if you happen to have 
>good enough color vision to know what the laughter is about.

    "It's true, but I can't explain it."

    Oh, what a good scientific response this is.

>On the other hand, were you to read the entire set of documents and that
>one in particular, you would have more honestly reported that it is a
>comment upon the ability of most men to deal with colors and
>how they look together. 

    The thrust of the document as a whole does not explain that one remark
about people laughing when you identify colors.  If you meant they laughed
when you put two colors together, that is not what you wrote.  Sorry about
that.  Please do not try to revise your own words to pretend they mean
something else.

    You still have not answered the question.


>	What is rather more interesting about the report is the use of 
>mauve by a man.

    Not all men share your mental handicaps.


>>>	You should have stayed awake in General Science class also.  
>
>>    Did.  You should have stayed awake in English class.
>
>>    You should also stay awake when writing your own material.  You might
>>not contradict yourself so much.  Would you like to try for a fourth true
>>truth about who did what regarding Rack Jite's web site and why?
>
>	It was recently observed that when the holohugger story changes it 
>is those on the other side who are accused of changing.  

    By whom?  Your memory is less reliable than John Dean's.  Give the
DejaNews URL or give it up. 

    In any event, you did not answer the mail on this one either. 

    Your evasion is noted.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:48 PDT 1996
Article: 53627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 26 Jul 1996 17:42:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4tbe4e$qjt@access5.digex.net>
References:    <31f8cdd3.478891@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <31f8cdd3.478891@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>> You are mentally retarded. It's the only conclusion I can
>>> make. There is no way that a normal person wouldn't have
>>> understood such a thing, after so many times.
>>
>>Danny, he's a _troll_.  He's deliberately saying stupid things in
>>order to make people talk about him and to distract from the facts
>>of the Holocaust.
>
>	J a m i e, the only names I see above are "Jamie McCarthy" and
>"Daniel Keren". Now when you say, "Danny, he's a _troll_. He's ...
>saying stupid things ...", I take it you are talking about Keren.

    Tom, are you trying to take back the "Most Stupid" title from Giwer? 

    Anyway, I want to thank you again for endorsing my post that you are a
liar.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:49 PDT 1996
Article: 53630 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 26 Jul 1996 18:11:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4tbfqm$ru3@access5.digex.net>
References: <5c9_9607251736@tor250.org> <4t9caq$n1k@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t9caq$n1k@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Jul 96 16:37:48, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>><+[auschwitz:myths and facts] [Thu 25 Jul 96 00:09][Thu 25 Jul 96 15:40][0]*>
>
>> >> ERCO is not wood-pulp.
>
>> >> But - you knew that.
>
>> mnc>     And you also know that wood pulp was the carrier in the
>> mnc> formulation used for vermin.  What is your problem with that?
>
>>We are talking about gassing Jews, not Belgian-Americans.
>
>	We are still talking about the type used for gassing vermin.  Nizkor-like
>insult attempts do not change that.  
>
>> mnc>     If you wish to post documentation as the to application of
>> mnc> the type using ERCO as a carrier (and what ERCO is) you are free
>> mnc> to do so.
>
>>Already done. Why waste bandwidth?
>
>	What has been done is that a short translation indentifying four different
>carriers for the same material.  Nothing in that translation posted discussed
>the application of each type of carrier.

    Schaedlingsbekaempfung.  What do you think that means?


>Before the Degesh Pub was posted the people saying they had a copy claimed it
>supported them but refused to post it claiming translation delays.  When I
>found a translation and posted it, it turned out that not only was there no
>support for anything blue but the wood pulp was clearly identfied as the
>carrier for the fumigant application.  

    What happened to your kitty litter?  What was that for?


>	Nothing has been posted as to the application of the "erco" carrier
>formulation.  

    Yes, it was.  "Schaedlingsbekaempfung."  What do you think that means?

    What do you think the ERCO form was used for?  Whitening and
brightening laundry? 

    I have a document saying that the Mac has a Motorola 68000 chip
inside.  Obivously the ads about the Power Mac are frauds.  Once a
document gives a list of what is available, that list is valid throughout
all time and may never change.  That is a Giwer true truth.

    How long are you going to continue to play this juvenile game of
pretending that because you have seen one document not listing ERCO, ERCO
did not exist or could not ever have been used for pest control? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:50 PDT 1996
Article: 53688 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 26 Jul 1996 19:11:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4tbjba$2a8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sr9li$8dh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4st2lo$s8c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4st2lo$s8c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>I think we are talking about two different things.  I have in mind the
>apparent formic acid agent that was added as a warning stuff (the
>*lachrymogen*).  It has been generally conceded that most ZB that ended up
>in the KZ system lacked this ingredient.

    This is not correct.  As I have posted twice in another thread, the
amount was reduced in 1941, but it was not removed completely until 1944.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 11:58:50 PDT 1996
Article: 53733 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Email 'bombings'?
Date: 17 Jul 1996 13:39:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4sj8gs$qpr@access5.digex.net>
References: <4s0p4n$3rp@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4scu8j$jn2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4scu8j$jn2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
RuthSommer  wrote:
> I have things to do in my garden,
>laundry,
>cooking, and thousands of other chores, and I can't come here every day
>and put up thousands of postings like some of the anti-revisionists are
>doing full-time.

    The highest-volume poster in this newsgroup is Matt Giwer.  And he is
not an anti-revisionist.  I am a fairly prolific poster.  According to
DejaNews, I have 960 posts on file in all newsgroups combined (and this
goes back at least to the beginning of the year).  Close to a thousand,
but not "thousands."  By comparison, Mr. Giwer has 7,850 posts on file
(again, in all newsgroups combined).  Please try to keep your posts
somewhat in accord with reality. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jul 27 12:58:21 PDT 1996
Article: 80581 of soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 25 Jul 1996 10:35:33 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4t80nl$ll9@access5.digex.net>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:80581 alt.revisionism:53362 talk.politics.european-union:5059

In article ,
Ole Kreiberg  wrote:
>Holger Skok wrote
>>
>>
>>I am still waiting, too, on an explanation for the dismissal of all the
>>documents,
>>testimonies and circumstantial evidence all corroborating the mass gassings
>>at Auschwitz and other extermination camps. Revisionists have to disregard
>>all this and I'd like to know what they give as a reason for doing so. 
>
>If you take a closer look on following websites
>
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg  or
>http://www.codoh.com
>
>you will find answers. 

    Mind you, he did not say they would be _good_ answers....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 28 07:11:08 PDT 1996
Article: 53825 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!newsfeed.kdcol.net!news.ios.com!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 17 Jul 1996 18:35:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4sjprc$bil@access5.digex.net>
References:  <16JUL199606392802@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31ebb688.11664037@news.pacificnet.net> <4shvkk$7ec@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4shvkk$7ec@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:41:26 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>>	Where is a written a Jew can not be an atheist?  
>
>>	In the dictionary. Randonm House Dictionary: "Jew, 1. A person
>>whose religion is Judaism."

    I wonder if Mr. Giwer noticed that little Tommy's post lacks honesty
and integrity.  Notice that the definition had a '1' in it.  This implies
that there should at least be a '2' if not a '3.'  Where is it?

    Oh, and where is it written that an atheist must be a Jew?


>	All these Jews here keep claiming they can be Jewish by birth.  Ah,
>well, who can you trust these days.  

    Certainly neither Tom Moran nor Matt Giwer.

    Where is it written that Daniel Mittleman is a Jew even by birth?

    Are you just going by the name?

    If so, you are very foolish.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 28 07:11:09 PDT 1996
Article: 53933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 28 Jul 1996 09:37:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4tfqf4$nlh@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tbjpj$2hu@access5.digex.net> <4tfdl5$jdk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tfdl5$jdk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article <4tbjpj$2hu@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
>(Michael P. Stein) writes:
>
>>
>>    Would you like to look at the title of the book one of these
>>centuries? 
>>
>>    "Schaedlingsbekaempfung."
>>
>>    Need help finding a German dictionary?
>
>PEST control.  This is old.

    Not to Matt.  Despite the fact that all three forms were mentioned in
a book on pest control, he says that only wood pulp was used in
fumigation.  This leaves us with the question of what he thinks ERCO and
kaolinite forms were used for.

    Do you really consider this legitimate skepticism which you wish to
defend?  That despite all three being mentioned in a book on pest control,
because another document does not mention ERCO, it was NOT for pest
control?


>We know that there were several carriers,
>several types (ABCDE), and several prices.  Now what _exactly_ was the
>difference among them? Since no one has ever answered these relatively
>simple questions which admittedly have no direct bearing on the gassings
>per se, I must assume _nobody__knows_!

    Well, the product went out of production many years ago.  I suppose
with enough legwork it might be possible to locate some documentation
somewhere, but I would think that for our purposes in this thread - which
is not determining the release characteristics of the carrier, but just
the color - the Peters book should establish the reality of ERCO (whatever
it may be).


>This is as good a time as any to comment on the *technical* commentary
>Peters' provides.  All he says is that the greater part is evolved after a
>half an hour.  Now that is not what I would call scientific or technical
>commentary.  It sounds like a commercial.  The argument is 1/2 hour at 20
>C for 37%, progressing geometrically.  At least those are concrete
>numbers.  If someone else has fixed percentages, let's have them.  There
>were such things as dispersal rates in 1933.

    Try getting product documentation on _anything_ manufactured in 1933
but not made today - especially if the company is no longer in existence,
at least in its original form.


    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 28 07:17:23 PDT 1996
Article: 53825 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!newsfeed.kdcol.net!news.ios.com!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 17 Jul 1996 18:35:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4sjprc$bil@access5.digex.net>
References:  <16JUL199606392802@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31ebb688.11664037@news.pacificnet.net> <4shvkk$7ec@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4shvkk$7ec@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:41:26 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>>	Where is a written a Jew can not be an atheist?  
>
>>	In the dictionary. Randonm House Dictionary: "Jew, 1. A person
>>whose religion is Judaism."

    I wonder if Mr. Giwer noticed that little Tommy's post lacks honesty
and integrity.  Notice that the definition had a '1' in it.  This implies
that there should at least be a '2' if not a '3.'  Where is it?

    Oh, and where is it written that an atheist must be a Jew?


>	All these Jews here keep claiming they can be Jewish by birth.  Ah,
>well, who can you trust these days.  

    Certainly neither Tom Moran nor Matt Giwer.

    Where is it written that Daniel Mittleman is a Jew even by birth?

    Are you just going by the name?

    If so, you are very foolish.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 28 07:17:24 PDT 1996
Article: 53933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 28 Jul 1996 09:37:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <4tfqf4$nlh@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tbjpj$2hu@access5.digex.net> <4tfdl5$jdk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tfdl5$jdk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article <4tbjpj$2hu@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
>(Michael P. Stein) writes:
>
>>
>>    Would you like to look at the title of the book one of these
>>centuries? 
>>
>>    "Schaedlingsbekaempfung."
>>
>>    Need help finding a German dictionary?
>
>PEST control.  This is old.

    Not to Matt.  Despite the fact that all three forms were mentioned in
a book on pest control, he says that only wood pulp was used in
fumigation.  This leaves us with the question of what he thinks ERCO and
kaolinite forms were used for.

    Do you really consider this legitimate skepticism which you wish to
defend?  That despite all three being mentioned in a book on pest control,
because another document does not mention ERCO, it was NOT for pest
control?


>We know that there were several carriers,
>several types (ABCDE), and several prices.  Now what _exactly_ was the
>difference among them? Since no one has ever answered these relatively
>simple questions which admittedly have no direct bearing on the gassings
>per se, I must assume _nobody__knows_!

    Well, the product went out of production many years ago.  I suppose
with enough legwork it might be possible to locate some documentation
somewhere, but I would think that for our purposes in this thread - which
is not determining the release characteristics of the carrier, but just
the color - the Peters book should establish the reality of ERCO (whatever
it may be).


>This is as good a time as any to comment on the *technical* commentary
>Peters' provides.  All he says is that the greater part is evolved after a
>half an hour.  Now that is not what I would call scientific or technical
>commentary.  It sounds like a commercial.  The argument is 1/2 hour at 20
>C for 37%, progressing geometrically.  At least those are concrete
>numbers.  If someone else has fixed percentages, let's have them.  There
>were such things as dispersal rates in 1933.

    Try getting product documentation on _anything_ manufactured in 1933
but not made today - especially if the company is no longer in existence,
at least in its original form.


    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Jul 28 08:07:28 PDT 1996
Article: 53935 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Flying south for a few days...
Date: 28 Jul 1996 00:47:43 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4terdf$fmf@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t0o4c$k45@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t75jn$2cd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>  <4t95bj$29b@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t95bj$29b@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>What I did not enjoy was the clever way I was given the message that "Ken
>McVay" knew how to find my parents.

    Anyone with a web browser can find your parents at one particular
commercial site.

    Anyone with one of those CD roms advertised in the DAK catalogue can
find your parents.

    But the thing is, anyone looking for you using those tools to look for
you will find your parents instead without realizing it.  You have not yet
grasped the fact that Andrew Mathis _thought_ he was calling you when he
placed the call.  But then, you only have a 163 IQ, so we must make
allowances for your slow comprehension. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 29 14:07:47 PDT 1996
Article: 54066 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I HAVE NO ROOT, SO I MUST SCREAM
Date: 28 Jul 1996 00:22:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4teptg$f40@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tej0b$mi@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tej0b$mi@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>I was at the dentist today, and I was informed that I must have root canal 
>work. I will, however, put off this dental operation until I have assured 
>myself that Marduk will in no way have root access to my mouth.
>
>My attornies are looking into it.
>


    This one is puzzling.  I am not sure if this is a Marduk forgery of a
Matt Giwer article, or if Matt Giwer has learned to forge Marduk articles
forging Matt Giwer articles. 

    All the headers point to Marduk.  However, Marduk can usually spell,
and "attorneys" is misspelled. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 29 14:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 54076 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Score -- posting stats, June 22-July 19
Date: 29 Jul 1996 00:46:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4thfo3$mac@access5.digex.net>
References: <63f_9607260928@tor250.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <63f_9607260928@tor250.org>, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[The Score -- posting stats, June 22-July 19] [Thu 25 Jul 96 04:32][Thu 25
>Jul 96 15:40][0]*>

[snip]

> mnc>     If you have been part of it, my best advice is to back out
> mnc> as quickly as possible.  But then you will posture here and
> mnc> ignore good advice.
>
>Bluffing doesn't work any more Matt. You are in deep shit and up to
>your lower lip.

    Alec, you don't know how true your statement is.

    At home late last week I had a friendly little chat with a very nice
gentleman who asked me about Matt's latest antics regarding the
"unspecified penalties" and the "I said nothing about suing" coupled with
the demand to remove all material related to Giwer.

    Having had a good look at his government ID, I will simply say that
the Department of Justice seal looked very authentic to me.  I really
don't think it was a Russian forgery.

    For what it's worth, I told him honestly that I did not take the
threat seriously.  However, I am not sure that makes a difference legally
if it is coupled with a demand for the kind of complete purge of Nizkor
demanded, including files that reference Giwer by name.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 29 14:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 54090 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lawsuit threats
Date: 29 Jul 1996 01:01:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <4thgjg$mnr@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sieaa$d01@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4t0elf$3aic@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4tcvdd$1b40@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> <4tfags$f54@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tfags$f54@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 27 Jul 1996 11:43:41 GMT, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:
>
>>>There will not be a lawsuit from Giwer.  He is too gutless and he knows 
>>full
>>>well that he will be thrown out of court on his ass, assuming he can 
>>find a
>>>lawyer to take the case, which I very much doubt.  
>>>However, if he should be so stupid as to try it anyway, I can assure 
>>you
>>>that my lawsuit, in the form of a counter-suit, will follow in 24 hours. 
>
>>>Thus, since he is so terrified of me, you can be sure there will be no
>>>lawsuit from the Prince.
>>>Gord McFee
>
>>Giwer....
>>j*ws sue everybody & everything.
>
>>I've found that the only thing they DO understand is violence. History 
>>proves that (hee hee).
>
>>Get with the program, kiddo.
>
>I have no idea who sues who but I note that I was first threatened with a
>lawsuit by McFly.  

    He threatened you with a lawsuit?  Really?  When?

    Or do you now admit you threatened Ken McVay with a lawsuit?

    If Gordon McFee threatened you, then you threatened Ken.

    You cannot have it both ways.



>The threats have been hot an heavy in every controversial conference I have
>been on since 1980.

    Actually, the first threat here came from you, against, Rack Jite.

    If Gordon McFee "threatened" you, then you threatened Rack Jite.


>So far as I am aware only one of them has proceeded and
>was quashed in its pleading.
>
>	That means, beneath judicial notice. 
>
>	This may be the second.  Quite an honor.

    Why limit yourself to civil action?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 29 14:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 54103 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TWA Flt 800
Date: 28 Jul 1996 17:37:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4tgmhs$5v2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tcnbh$7er@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31FA7270.3044@unb.ca> <28JUL199608015953@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <28JUL199608015953@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
Danny Mittleman  wrote:
>[Keith Morrison wrote to Giwer:]

>    NPR had a weapons expert on on 7/25 who stated that while the aircraft was
>    at an altitude greater than the published range for a stinger missile, that
>    the actual range is about 25% more than is published and that the plane was
>    within that larger number.
>
>>Please indicate why a man who claims to have had as much military
>>exposure such as yourself believes that Stingers are the only antiaircraft
>>missiles available in the world.
>
>    Actually, the same weapons expert stated that there was not another missile
>    that was a better candidate for this job than the stinger.

    However, I also heard a discussion that a stinger would have locked in
on the engines, and so would probably not have caused the instantaneous
failure of the voice recorder.  The plane would probably have been able to
stay in the air longer - the comparison was made to the KAL 007 shootdown.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 29 14:07:51 PDT 1996
Article: 54191 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 29 Jul 1996 12:02:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4tinbf$bca@access5.digex.net>
References:   <4t92d2$9o5@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Daniel Keren  wrote:
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## If you could read, you would have noticed that Hoessler said
>## that everyone *in the camp (Auschwitz)* knew about the gas 
>## chambers.
>##
>## Not *everyone* in Europe, or in the world.
>
># I was referring to the camp.  As you know there are plenty
># of claims from people who were at Auschwitz they never heard
># of such a thing.  
>
>I am not aware of this. There may have been a few, who were
>there for a very short time, or during the end of the war, who
>said they didn't know of the gas chambers.

    For what it's worth, I clearly recall having seen at least one such
testimony, and I've probably seen some others.  I don't find this
surprising. There was Auschwitz, and there was Birkenau, and the camps
were subdivided.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 29 14:07:52 PDT 1996
Article: 54217 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 29 Jul 1996 12:15:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4tio30$cik@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk> <9607141530.AA18411@itwsn2.itw.uni-stuttgart.de> <3Ge-nOev1075065yn@login.dknet.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3Ge-nOev1075065yn@login.dknet.dk>,
Ole Kreiberg  wrote:
>
>In article <9607141530.AA18411@itwsn2.itw.uni-stuttgart.de>, Holger Skok wrote:
>>
>>And this is obviously complete bunk. The manual Lueftl cites here to
>>get his 32 hour figure is one concerned with fumigation. The manual
>>clearly states that the time it takes for the HCN to reach the desired
>>effect - i.e. kill all insects in the treated house - can be up to 32 hours
>>at low temperatures. 
>>
>>Read my keys: TIME TO KILL INSECTS
>>
> In the article in Encyclopedia Britannica from 1943 and 1946 you can read
>that the exposure time to HCN for insects are one hour.

    But the _actual_ exposure time will vary depending on whether it is a
delousing chamber with powered circulation or a house with many nooks,
crannies, bedding, etc.  The gas must actually penetrate into all areas at
a lethal concentration.  In a delousing chamber specially designed for the
task, this is not a problem and so the exposure time can be less than for
a house or barracks.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 29 14:07:53 PDT 1996
Article: 54220 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 29 Jul 1996 11:57:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <4tin1e$b24@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4t6t68$74h@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tbi1a$1a9@access5.digex.net> <4tcq18$hi7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tcq18$hi7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 26 Jul 1996 18:49:14 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>>    However, let's just cut this short.  You say Peer is a Holocaust
>>survivor and a liar or fantasist, so no eyewitness can be trusted.  Many
>>documents came from Soviet sources and the Soviets were known to forge
>>documents, so all documents are forged.
>
>	And of course Peer is no different from the rest of the "survivors" 
>who testify to such things.  So what?

    What are you saying here?  Every survivor is fantasizing?  Without
exception?  What about the SS?


>>    Greg Raven denies gassing and he has told proven lies.  Mark Weber
>>denies gassing and has told proven lies by omission at least.  The Lachout
>>Document is a forgery.  Therefore all revisionists must be considered
>>liars and all revisionist evidence forgeries.
>	
>	I don't know of Raven other than his site.  

    Irrelevant.


>>    Works for me.
>
>	Your problem.  

    If all Holocaust witnesses are liars because one is, then all
revisionists are liars because one is.  Your rule.  Your problem.


>>    When presented with a revisionist argument you don't like, you say, "I
>>speak for myself."  But you do not allow that same right to the witnesses. 
>>Any witness you cannot refute, you simply call up Peer and pretend that
>>Peer invalidates the testimony of the other witness, that the other
>>witness must speak for both himself and Peer.  Why can I not call up Raven
>>and use him to invalidate you?  Your hypocrisy is in full bloom. 
>
>Peer is one of about two dozen I have cited in the last few months and I have
>yet to find one "witness" who recounts ZB in accordance with its physical
>properties, much less in relation to CO which only makes matters worse.  

    You have yet to show that you even understand the testimonies, let
alone that there is an inconsistency.

    Since you openly confessed to lying last week, why should anyone
believe your unsupported assertion?

(http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted)


>>>And then I was told that she survived Auschwitz ONLY because of her age and
>>>that everyone younger than her was gassed immediately upon arrival.  And then
>>>I find other stories of younger children surviving.
>
>>    It depends on the date of arrival and a few other factors.  Policies
>>changed over time.
>
>Excuse me but the evidence can not even show the policy much less its change
>over time. Your statement is pure fabrication on your part.

    Your saying so does not make it so.  Once again, we see the naked
assertion of a confessed liar.


>>>	Does the inconsistancy of the true truths never bother you?  
>
>>    If you had oatmeal for breakfast today, are you being inconsistent if
>>you tell me you had corn flakes for breakfast yesterday?  Obviously you
>>must think so.
>
>Do you not think the difference between screaming and instanteos death is
>significant?  

    I would think it significant if I did not know that the difference
between a high dose and a low dose is significant, that the difference
between close to the release point and far from the release point is
significant, that the temperature is significant, that the difference
between screaming before any Zyklon is even released and screaming after
is significant, etc.

    You do not even know the difference between "after a few minutes there
was silence," and "the screaming went on for tens of minutes."

    And you are a confessed liar.

    So why are any of your unsupported assertions significant?

    Give it up, child.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Jul 29 14:07:54 PDT 1996
Article: 54226 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,alt.censorship,ont.general,bc.general,talk.politics.misc,misc.legal,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: JeseRE:thejewscc:ANON
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 29 Jul 1996 16:12:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 64
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <4tj5vo$ooj@access5.digex.net>
References: <4t2qun$5sv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <114303Z26071996@anon.penet.fi>  <4tblqr$qg5@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:54226 can.general:85127 alt.censorship:91939 ont.general:48250 bc.general:49535 talk.politics.misc:417534 misc.legal:21242 comp.org.eff.talk:68493

In article <4tblqr$qg5@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Janet  wrote:
>Don't let them get to ya.
>They talk about "facts" just as their
>punching below the belt.

    I can see how you might consider talking about facts to be punching
below the belt.

>You make concrete points and they insult you for having made a
>mere spelling error.

    Concrete points?  Where?  The incomprehensible nonsense about port
113?  The manifestly false statement that there is nothing to read but
name-calling?  The thing about "hate-Mr.-Giwer" spam?  Excuse me, but
those points were concrete and not addressed by the person you are
defending.  I can point to actual evidence to support each and every one
of them.

    Rather inconsistent of you, I think.


>They aren't equipped to debate as we know it.

    Let us just say that I see no point in debate as _you_ know it.


>Punch for punch - whoever has the strongest stance wins,

    Now, in debate as _I_ know it, whoever has the best documentation and
strongest argument wins, not the one who can yell, "Because!  I!  Say!
So!" the loudest.


>No, they  pass over points that disagree with them,

    As opposed to saying, "You're wrong Because! I! Say! So!" as your
anonymous friend did with the list of specifics about Mr. Giwer?


>search out the most vulnerable aspect,
>no matter what it is, and they, the jews, attack full force. To
>them there is no such thing as "fair play".

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!  is not debate as I know it.


>Their jews and they don't live with the sense of morality that we
>have.

    For which I say: Baruch hashem.


>I had thought debate was possible but, really, jews are jews and
>they aren't anything but.

    Hey, I can make claims Because! I! Say! So! as well as the next guy.
I just think it's rather silly.

    But that is debate as you know it, not debate as I know it.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 30 07:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 54279 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: PlsDon'tAdressMeAnymore
Date: 29 Jul 1996 11:37:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4tils9$a6n@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tbk9c$31p@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>  <4tdl3t$5rf@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tdl3t$5rf@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Janet  wrote:
>Sara,
>
>	You stated that I have come to the
>internet with my views already "set in
>stone". To a certain extent you are right,
>however, you fail to point out that you have
>also come to the internet with your views
>"set in stone."
>	You believe that the jews, throughout
>all of history, are not guilty of any wrong
>doings whatsoever.
>	I believe that the jews are guilty of
>many.

    Of course Jews have been and are guilty of wrongdoing.  I have
criticized Israel for the shelling of the UN outpost, and I am a Jew.

    Of course blacks have been and are guilty of wrongdoing.

    Of course whites have been ...

    Of course Catholics have been ...

    But.

    THE Jews have not and are not.

    THE blacks have not and are not.

    THE whites have not and are not.

    THE Catholics have not and are not.

    Etc.

    Do you understand the difference?

    Do you think that if someone of your skin color/religion/national
origin robs a bank, you too are guilty of bank robbery?  I don't.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 30 07:34:48 PDT 1996
Article: 54289 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 29 Jul 1996 12:31:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4tip0q$dae@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4t3t7r$kus@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4t85ok$ot7@access5.digex.net> <4t8o90$9gd@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t8o90$9gd@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Jul 1996 12:01:24 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4t3t7r$kus@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 23 Jul 1996 10:20:55 -0700, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4t0vjb$66h@access5.digex.net>,
>>>>Michael P. Stein  wrote:

[...]

>>>>>    Wrong AGAIN, Matt.  The indicator was removed in 1944.  The Kremas
>>>>                             ^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>commenced operation in 1943.  Tell us again about "years earlier?"
>>>
>>>>Don't you mean that the lachrymogen was removed?
>>>
>>>	1941 actually.  It cut costs and they used all the detectors 
>>>everyone makes such an issue of.  
>
>>    Once again, this is merely a symptom of Mr. Giwer's illiteracy or
>>early-onset Alzheimer's (or an outright lie).  The amount of lachrymogen
>>was _reduced_ in 1941.  But not reduced to zero.  The complete elimination
>>came in 1944. 
>
>	Do you enjoy making these things up?  Or can you document the 
>reduction first and then separate elimination?  

    Yes, I can.  In fact, I have done so though I find there was a typo in
my source for the date - checking the hardcopy, it was 1942.  I should
also say that August 1942 was the _latest_ date by which the lachrymogen
was reduced; it could of course have been done earlier but not mentioned.

    Did you not see the reference?  Having problems with your newsfeed?
Get a new provider.  That is the Giwer Rule.  You invented it, you live
with it.

    Tell you what.  Why don't _you_ document _your_ claim that someone
here claimed it was eliminated in 1941?  Post the DejaNews URL or the
article subject, author, date, and ID.  Then I'll repost my documentation
just for you so you can miss it again.  Heck, you missed the 1944
elimination even though you quoted it in one of your own posts!

    Or do you just enjoy making these things up?

    Since you are now a confessed liar, it would seem so.

(http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted)
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 30 07:34:49 PDT 1996
Article: 54315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 30 Jul 1996 00:34:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 301
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References:  <4thi4k$fdj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4thi4k$fdj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>

[snip]

>>This is utter nonsense on the part of the deniers of course. 
>
>*of course* is gratuitous here.  But you know that.

    Hmn.


>And now, when
>>presented with evidence that Zyklon B _did_ rapidly evolve much, if not
>>most, of the HCN in about 10 minutes or so you suggest we "drop" the
>>discussion as we "we can't get specifics?"
>
>I said no such thing.  And you know that.

    Pardon me?  Going back to your previous post in the thread, I find:

"My attitude on this is since we can't get specifics we should really drop
it.  Neither the 37% hypothesis nor the Peters' comment are mutually
exclusive in the sense that nobody at this point in time is arguing for
complete outgassing in 10 minutes or even in one half hour."

    I did not realize that amnesia was contagious, especially over the
Internet.  Yet here you are developing Giwer's Amnesia about what you
yourself said only a little while ago. 



> _That_ is utter nonsense on
>>_your_ part, Ehrlich606. Is this to be yet _another_ topic you jump on
>>your rhetorical high horse (hobby horse?) and ride away from? 
>
>As usual, the tired van Alstine resorts to cheap ad hominems because he
>would rather persuade people by appealing to their emotions than their
>logic.
>
>>
>>> Now this was the point of Lueftl's calculations.  He claimed that if
>the
>>> ZB was put in, someone would have to clean it up.  The *wastefulness*
>>> argument, IMHO, is not really relevant.  Whether 92% is still in after
>10
>>> minutes, or something else, the point is that the ZB is going to be
>>> dangerous and still outgas for some time after opening the can.
>>
>>So much for you "dropping" discusion on this as "we can't get specifics!"
>
>>
>>Hypocrite.  
>
>Another gratuitous assault, as predictable in a van Alstine post sun after
>a shower.

    You dropped a word or two.  Rather like someone else we know.


>>> All right.  But since the argument now goes that there are gas masks as
>>> well as induction tubes (actually, I gather prisms that contain the
>>> pellets, lowered by wire into the tube), and that the prisms are
>removed,
>>> we don't have an problem here anymore.
>>
>>The was never a _real_ problem in the first place! 
>
>Of course there was.  There was a major problem until Pressac wrote his
>book.  And of course, there have evidently been problems since, as Pressac
>has revised the book several times, and it is still not possible to obtain
>the book mainstream.  Or perhaps you want to claim it is at Waldenbooks.
>
>The "problem" was, as
>>is typical, with the deniers. It was a problem of distortion, deceit, and
>>turning a blind eye to the evidence. In other words, the usual denier
>>antics. 
>
>As with all conventionalist ripostes, it is a problem of distortion, rabid
>appeals to emotion, and cliche ad hominems.
>
>>
>>> Therefore I conclude that the outgassing time of ZB is not really an
>issue
>>> anymore, since everyone (even Lueftl) concedes that 10 minutes is
>enough
>>> time to kill everyone on the chamber (The one caveat here is the
>problem
>>> of the gas escaping through the baffles of the prism and the induction
>>> column, but that is best addressed by an engineer.)  
>>
>>The "problem" of "gas escaping through the baffles" is yet another
>example
>>of denier "problems." The "solution," of course, sits there right in
>front
>>of your face: _Holzblenden_. Each of the four
>>_Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung_ came equipped with a _Holzblenden_. (cf.
>>_Anatomy_, p.233.) 
>
>What do Holzblenden have to do with it?  Describe precisely how that would
>work.
>
>>
>>According to Henryk Tauber:
>>
>>"...Through the window of the <>, I observed how the
>><> [Zyklon B] was poured into the gas chamber. Each transport was
>>followed by a vehicle with Red Cross markings which entered the yard of
>>the crematorium, carrying the camp doctor, Mengele, accompanied by
>>Rottenfu"hrer [corporal] Scheimetz. They took the cans of <> from
>>the car and put them beside the small chimneys used to introduce the
>><> into the gas chamber. There Scheimetz opened them with a
>>special cold chisel [with a ring of teeth at its head] and a hammer, then
>>poured the contents into the gas chamber. Then he closed the orifice with
>>a concrete [or wooden] cover. As there were four similar chimneys,
>>Scheimetz poured into each the contents of one of the smallest cans of
>><>, which had yellow labels pasted right around them [see
>>Documents 32, 33, and 34]. Before openiung the cans, Scheimetz put on a
>>gas mask [see Document 35] which he wore while opening the cans and
>>pouring in the product. There were also other SS who performed this
>>operation, but I have forgotten their names. They were specially
>>designated for it and belonged top the <> [health
>>service]. A camp doctor [SS] was present at each gassing...."
>>(_Technique_. p.494.)
>
>This is all totally irrelevant.

    All the foregoing is relevant to your caveat about the gas escaping
through the baffles of the prism and the induction tube.  Your reading
comprehension is usually better than this.


>But it's good to see you made sure that
>Mengele was in on all the gassings.  A nice touch.  But I will hold you to
>the proposition that four cans were used in four openings.

    Interesting for several reasons.



>>The SS "disinfector" simply closed the cover on the "little chimney,"
>>which would have prevented any HCN gas from escaping. What a concept.
>Such
>>clever Nazis.  
>
>Not surprisingly, you totally miss the point, as usual.

    No, you missed the point.  All the foregoing was a response to your
"caveat."


>>> ...The only other problem here is that Nyiszli, for example, claims
>that
>>the 
>>> fans were not turned on for 30 minutes.
>>
>>Isn't it rather pathetic of deniers, after they try to discredit
>>eyewitnesses when the eyewitnesses' testimonies contradicts their pet
>>"arguments" and that they will then turn around and cite the very same
>>eyewitnesses as an authority when they feel it _supports_ their
>arguments?
>>
>>
>>Hypocrite.
>
>More gratuitous ad hominems.  But, btw, I am not concerned with Nyiszli's
>veracity.  It is up to _you_ to defend it.  You fail to do so, directly,
>instead you invoke Pressac, below:
>
>>
>>But to address the "problem," I would cite Pressac's explination:
>>
>>"...The SS chose Zyklon-B for its high degree of toxicity on warm blooded
>>animals, including man. The meticulous care stipulated in NI-9912 has no
>>sense in homicidal gassing, because this changed the situation radically.
>>The space where the gas was used was closed and gas-tight. No furniture,
>>bedding or floor covering. The floor, walls and ceilings were of bare
>>concrete (except for about twenty dummy wooden shower heads installed in
>>the ceiling). Forced-draught ventilation would be relatively efficient in
>>these circumstances.
>
>Pressac ignores that a crush of human bodies also has a lot of nooks and
>crannies.  You know, the kind that causes *suffocating coughs* in Nyiszli,
>but _not_ in any safety manuals on the handling of HCN.

    The safety manuals did not envision ZB being used under such
circumstances.  But you know that.



> After 15 minutes of ventilation the air in the room
>>would be completely renewed. A homicidal gassing (using 5 to 7kg of
>>Zyklon-B for 1000 to 2000 persons) would last about twenty minutes: 5
>>minutes for the action of the HCN bringing swift death (the quantity
>>introduced being 40 times the lethal dose) and 15 minutes of ventilation
>
>And now we are down to five minutes, contradicting several witnesses.

    Which ones?  Are you sure you have their timing tracks down right?  I
have gone over this point several times with - Matt Giwer.


>Get
>it together Mark.  The door is opened after 1/2 hour, not 20 minutes.

    According to who?

 
>BTW, thanks for confirming that four 2 kg cans were used.  This is good!
>
>>BEFORE BEING ABLE TO OPEN THE GAS TIGHT DOOR. Although a part of the
>toxic
>>gas had been inhaled by the victims, this was negligible with respect to
>>the quantity remaining due to the initial overdose.
>>
>>"Here, Faurisson is right when he states that the operating sequences as
>>described by the witnesses give rise to an almost insurmountable
>>difficulty.
>
>Yes.
>
> For example, Camp Commandant Hoess and Dr. Nyiszli report
>>EXACTLY the same sequence: pouring of Zyklon-B through the openings in
>the
>>ceiling, the pellets running down the four wire mesh columns and rapid
>
>Where does Hoess talk about the wire mesh?  Also, Nyiszli doesn't call
>them wire mesh, either.
>
>>diffusion of HCN by evaporation in the room <> by human body
>>heat. In 5 to 10 minutes everybody was dead. Then there was a FURTHER
>wait
>>of 20 to 30 minutes BEFORE switching on the ventilation. The door was
>>opened and the extraction of bodies commenced immediately (<>).
>>But why wait 20 to 30 minutes after the complete death of the victims
>>before opening the door? This is a waste of time when we consider the
>>rapid throughput rates imposed by the SS, always in a hurry. 
>
>According to what documentation?
>
>Hoess and
>>Nyiszli are mistaken as regards the moment at which the ventilation
>began.
>
>According to Pressac, who is making this up as he goes along.  What is the
>proof that they are mistaken?

    It should be obvious that Pressac is stating a logical conclusion.



>>It was in fact
>
>What is the proof of this fact?

    Once again, a logical conclusion.


> switched on not more than 10 minutes AFTER the introduction
>>of the gas and it was left running FOR 20 to 30 minutes BEFORE the door
>>was opened. The witnesses state the contrary, and for them it is the
>>truth. The fact is that as long as the gas-tight door remained closed, no
>>SOUND could be heard and people could see INTO the gas chamber only
>>through the inspection peephole. The switching of the ventilation could
>>not be heard because the motor was located in the roof space of the
>>Crematorium and the witnesses were in the basement. What is more, there
>>were five or six electric motors in the roof space, three of them being
>>used for other ventilation systems. How was it possible to distinguish
>the
>>noise of the gas chamber ventilation motor if that of the furnace room,
>of
>>the same power, was running at the same time? In truth, the witnesses
>>HEARD the noise of ventilator fans WHEN the door was opened and they had
>>THE IMPRESSION that the ventilaton has just been switched on.
>>(_Technique_, p.16.)
>
>Now there is another problem here.  Where is the gas escaping to?  Not out
>the *little chimneys* I hope, because they have concrete lids on them to
>prevent gas from escaping.  So how is the gas blown out?  Through what
>openings?  The same ones the gas was put in?  Have the SS taken the little
>prisms up yet?

    You have forgotten about the air extraction system?


    When I answer Giwer, I frequently parody his writing style (minus
butchery of the English language) for effect.  What I would like to know
is why you have adopted his writing style at many points, and suddenly
cropped up with his amnesia, including denial of something you clearly
said only a few days ago. 

    Posted/emailed.  At least you have not imitated Giwer there too and
told me not to send you email copies of articles any more. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 30 07:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 54325 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 29 Jul 1996 23:30:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 11:48:11 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K.
>Gandhi) wrote:
>
>>Where is your evidence that Mr. McVay is libelling you ? It is not libel
>>to quote you.
>
>	Maintaining my material out of context on Nizkor such that it appears
>different from the way it does in context is libel.  

    Since you have cut my text so as to distort it and responded to the
distorted text, you have now admitted to libel.

    Of course all unthreaded newsreaders also are libelous.


>Any referenence he maintains by anyone else that refers to me as
>a nazi or an antisemite is libel.

    The first is an insult.  The second is at least arguable.


>Not to mention that anything of mine posted without my permission is a
>violation of my automatic copyright on what I create.

    You posted it to Usenet.  Are you saying every machine receiving your
post violates copyright?  What a strange person you are.


>I demanded it be taken down so long ago that even McVay refused, along with
>his fellow collaborators in copyright violation and a host of others who found
>no problem with that violation of the law.

    So the articles have a long expiration date.


>	You may remember it lead to an attack upon my website for a few trivial
>matters that were "reported" but nothing ever came of the reports.

    Actually, that's not how it happened.  Your memory is once again
playing tricks on you.


>It was a
>nice diversion away from the copyright violations of the director and the
>contributors to Nizkor.  

    Do not forget DejaNews.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 30 20:36:50 PDT 1996
Article: 54424 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 30 Jul 1996 12:11:06 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 138
Message-ID: <4tlc6q$cq4@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4tcpie$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4thuh8$feu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4thuh8$feu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 20:41:28 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>## And we have a specific reference, plus a photograph, 
>>## of the Erco carrier.
>>##
>>## It existed. Do us a favor, don't claim it didn't.
>>##
>>## Why do you think it was manufactured?
>>    
>># Sorry, dummy.  
>
>>Do try to concentrate. I'm trying to help you here. I am
>>aware of your severe limitations, which is why I'm taking
>>this one step at a time.
>
>>The Zyklon with the Erco carrier existed in 1933; we have
>>the book and we even a photograph of it.
>
>>Once again:
>
>>Why do you think it was manufactured?
>
>>Try to answer the question. 
>

>As in the last, I do not know why it was maufactured.  It would behoove
>you to post that reason since you have the book. 


>In the mean time, deal with the "at least ten hours" in the publication
>you folks claimed supported your position but refused to post.  If that
>BS had not been bad enough, it clearly connect the fumigation application
>and wood pulp. 

    That has been done so many times I've lost count.  The "at least ten
hours" was for ordinary houses, barracks, etc. with no powered
ventilation.  It did not apply to delousing chambers and the underground
rooms which had powered air extraction systems.  Do you think they had to
wait ten hours to take a load of clothes out of a delousing chamber?  Do
you think you can learn to pay attention? 


>You folks were clearly deceptive in refusing to post what you had as you
>knew it did not support your position even though you claimed it did.

    Repetition does not make it true.  The only admitted liar posting in
this newsgroup is you.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted



>Now you are making a implicite claim that despite there being four
>different types of carriers there was no difference in the use

    Four different types?  I know of the cardboard "beer coaster" type
(which I presume is the wood pulp), the kaolinite, and the ERCO.  If you
took your DEGESCH pub from the Leuchter Report, it shows the "beer
coaster" type in the drawing.

    As for no difference in use, that depends on what level you are
talking about. There is no difference in use at the high level of "pest
control."  Now, at a more detailed level I suspect the form that looks
like beer coasters would be best for barracks and houses - easy clean up. 
The kaolinite and ERCO forms would be better for use in the delousing
chambers - which were present at Auschwitz.

    I do not have documentation on this, but I know from Friedrich Berg's
writing that the DEGESCH delousing chambers had automatic can openers. But
automatic machinery for spreading the "beer coaster" form would be pretty
complicated engineering.  This is only my speculation at this point, but
it would make much more sense to puncture both ends of the can and either
force air through it (the chambers did have powered circulation) or dump
them into a small basket.  In either case, the increased surface area and
spaces between small pellets would be better for this type of application
than the "beer coaster" type.


>and that the book you "claim (again") supports you does not in any manner
>discuss the different applications for the different carrier types. 

    The only support claimed is that the ERCO type existed and was used
for delousing.


>You folks played the game the first time around and lost badly.

    More unsupported assertion.

    Do you deny that the ERCO type existed?  Yes or no?  Are all photos of
the ERCO pellet type forgeries? 

    Do you deny that DEGESCH manufactured the ERCO type described in
Peters's book on pest control using cyanide and mentioned in the IMT
exhibit clearly copied from the DEGESCH publication you posted? (Remember,
Peters worked for DEGESCH.)  Yes or no? 

    Do you deny that Auschwitz had delousing chambers?  Yes or no?


>Now you are trying to play it again.  You really should make an attempt
>to be honest and at least post a translation of the section(s) that
>describe the difference in usage for the four different types of carrier. 

    You should be honest and admit that ERCO existed and was used in the
camps.

    But of course you are a confessed liar.



>========
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: At least part of the Degesh publication
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:06:14 GMT
>
>
>	I wonder if the ten hour ventilation time has anything to do with the
>long promised Degesh pub not showing up before.  
>
>Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication 

[snip]

    What is the date of this publication, by the way?

    Are you perhaps hiding something yourself, confessed liar?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 30 20:36:51 PDT 1996
Article: 54432 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JewstheCommiebastrds
Date: 30 Jul 1996 12:21:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4tlcq1$d73@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tbj78$2ao@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tbj78$2ao@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Janet  wrote:
>    Whatever the case, the heads of the mission [to kill the
>Romanovs] were indeed, Jewish to the bone.
>    Whether the girls are "teenaged" or "barely teenaged" isn't the 
>point. They were innocent, young girls and they were murdered simply 
>because a jew wanted them murdered.

    Are you then trying to claim that the person who wanted them murdered
did so because he was a Jew? 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 30 20:36:51 PDT 1996
Article: 54447 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 30 Jul 1996 15:15:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4tln0c$l0m@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net> <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <29JUL199606433755@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4tknvv$ai4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:37718 alt.politics.nationalism.white:26516 alt.revisionism:54447 alt.skinheads:33367

In article <4tknvv$ai4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 29 Jul 1996 06:43 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>Any referenence he maintains by anyone else that refers to me as a nazi 
>>>or an antisemite is libel.  
>
>>    Antisemite?  No, that is demonstratably true.  Nazi?  That might make
>>    for an interesting case.  Lucky for Ken, if you sue in the US, is that
>>    you are probably a public figure on the internet (after all, you have
>>    your own newsgroup) and a much wider latitude is afforded Ken in his
>>    dealings with public figures.
>
>	Is this the current means of excusing libel?  I have NO form of public
>recognition as a public person.  I have nether sought nor approved on any
>public conference.

    Doesn't matter.  A famous person insisting, "I am not famous!" will
not make it so.  Neither will your insistence that you are not a public
person in this forum for the purposes of the law of libel.  In another
forum you might not be a public person, but I am sure any competent
attorney defending a suit would put forward this defense if there were any
doubt about using "truth" as a defense (or even if there weren't; it costs
nothing to use multiple defenses).


>	In fact the creation of and the solicition of others to carry such a
>conference is further evidence of conspiracy.

    One person created it, and not for the purpose of making you a public
figure for the purpose of libel law.  Even if he had, this is not a
conspiracy.  Others are openly advocating it.  The open advocation is
merely the exercise of a free speech right.  A conspiracy would be to
exchange information on how to break into other systems and
surreptitiously newgroup it.


>	Specifically in this case it is for the purpose of first creating 
>a public figure and then second freely defaming him.  That is a clear
>conspiracy.

    Clear only to a paranoid like yourself.

>    That would appear to be a clear conspiracy.

    Is there an echo in here?


>Let it fall where it may.  
>
>    I have never acted as other than a private citizen.  

    Enough public acts by a private citizen make one a public figure.

    You do not know as much about the law as you think you do.  You may
come to find this out the hard way some day.

    Evidently you did not see what I told Alec about a conversation I had
last week.  But really, it makes no difference.  You cannot change what
has happened.  Pity.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Jul 30 20:36:52 PDT 1996
Article: 54464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!news-e2a.gnn.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 30 Jul 1996 14:55:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4tllrr$k09@access5.digex.net>
References: <31E3EF41.D5D@gryn.org> <4t8nm5$g7q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4tdc2k$gj1@news1.io.org> <4ti50r$l3l@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ti50r$l3l@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 27 Jul 1996 15:19:48 GMT, alec@gryn.org@     (Big Kahuna) wrote:
>
>>In <4t8nm5$g7q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>>	Sort of surprising it has not been done.  After all, holohuggers want anyone
>>>who is not as gullable as they are silenced.  
>
>>Let's try and follow your logic, Matt.
>
>>1. It's a snap to get rid of you via a simple robo-cancel. There are
>>   quite a few around for spamming. One to get rid of you would be
>>   simpler to set up - just a script in the right place.
>
>	Of course.  That is the only way holohuggers can deal with the truth
> -- delete it.

    Would you like me to find the examples of where you did that to me,
dishonestly and deceptively editing my text to make it sound as if I had
said something quite different than what I did?


>	I am rather surprised it has not been done before.  

    But it has not been done.  The only cancellation of your posts was
done by a content-neutral computer algorithm based on excessive
repetition.

    Therefore if your assertion is true - that the only way "holohuggers"
can deal with the truth is to delete it - then you admit that none of your
words are true, as they have not been deleted.

    Otherwise, your assertion is false.  You cannot have it both ways.

    And you are, after all, a confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Jul 30 20:36:53 PDT 1996
Article: 54480 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:11:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4tmbrg$568@access1.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <6b4_9607231741@tor250.org> <7187cc$b1531.ff@NEWS> <4t75c0$2cd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:81080 alt.revisionism:54480

In article <4t75c0$2cd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:

[snip]

> The one thing we do know is that taking Christian names and acting like
>Christians is something Jews would never do because we are told that is
>not a possible explanation for disappearing Jews. 

    Who said this?  Nobody of course.

    It is a very _unlikely_ explanation for _that many_ disappearing Jews.

    How about being abducted by space aliens?  Is that not also a possible
explanation for disappearing Jews?  How much more or less possible is that
than taking Christian names?  There seems to be an equal amount of
physical evidence for each, does there not?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:30 PDT 1996
Article: 54564 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:14:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4tmc1e$5a9@access1.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tclc8$h52@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4tipk7$o0p@shiva.usa.net> <4tkdof$ife@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:81122 alt.revisionism:54564

In article <4tkdof$ife@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 29 Jul 1996 16:41:43 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>	Fascinating, actually.  Do you have the documentation of the
>>	paperwork to proof this?
>
>>This is common knowledge.  I provide nothing that Mr. Giwer asks for.
>>Perhaps, if Mr. Giwer ever decides to provide a single, solitary
>>shred of proof to support any of his many dubious claims, I will
>>consider providing him with some proof that he asks for.
>
>You folks really are stupid,  Is this something racial?  I ask a question.
>You say I should prove a claim.  

    You ask for proof of a claim.  You are asked why you demand what you
never give yourself.

    But we all know it is because you are a lying, hypocritical troll.  It
is good to see that you have at last admitted that you are a liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:31 PDT 1996
Article: 54569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.walltech.com!newsfeed1.aimnet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: 30 Jul 1996 20:18:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4tm8nr$2bq@access1.digex.net>
References: <4sptl9$p7q@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t4ffr$6bo@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t8blm$dvt@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t8vd2$e76@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4t8vd2$e76@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Jul 1996 18:42:14 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>	It is good to see that you are interested in further advertising the
>>>complete lack of physical evidence for your imagined evils.  
>
>>	Who, apart from you, has made any claims about radiation burns to
>>people's genitals in the context of the Holocaust?

    Brack, actually.


>	I have merely pointed out that it is one more example of the lack 
>of physical evidence.  What is your problem with that?  

    The letter from Brack is not physical?  One cannot touch it?  One
cannot see it?  One cannot read it?  One cannot perform forensic tests on
it?  One cannot show it to Brack and ask him if it is genuine?  You are a
very strange person.  Also a very dishonest person.  The letter itself is
physical evidence.  Get over it, child.

    You insinuated it was an NKVD forgery.  The letter was written on
Brack's personal stationery.  But you know that.  It bears a "Geheime
Reichsache" stamp on the first page ("Secret Reich matter," equivalent to
"Top Secret"). But you know that.  It bears Brack's handwritten (not
typewritten) signature on the second page.  But you know that. 

    The letter is referred to in a reply from Himmler.  But you know
that.  It is also referred to by the Blankenburg letter which calls the
work worthless.  But you know that.

    And of course we are left with the puzzling question of why Brack
himself accepted the letter as genuine at his trial.  But you know that.
And the trial was conducted by the Americans, not the Soviets.  But you
know that.

    If this is not sufficient to authenticate the letter, even without a
victim, I don't know what is.  I don't yet know if a male survived, but
there have been posts referring to female survivors of the sterilization
experiments.

    You _do_ know all of that.  Don't you? 

    If you do, you are lying.  If you don't, you are showing once again
you have no real interest in the truth by Or just making up the "NKVD
forgery" thing as you go? 

    I have told you what you need to do to get people to stop calling you
a lying troll.  Admitting openly that you have told a wilful lie, as in
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted
does not exactly help your cause.

    The letter itself is physical evidence.  Give it up, lying child.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:32 PDT 1996
Article: 54570 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: 30 Jul 1996 20:49:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4tmajn$412@access1.digex.net>
References: <4sptl9$p7q@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4ssoha$erp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4t26rt$pml@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4t26rt$pml@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 21:02:47 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>>[To Hilary Ostrov]
>
>># Dear Fatbroad,
>
>>Remember folks, he says his IQ is 163. Moreover, I recall
>>that he claims to have taken a few IQ tests and that 163
>>was his lowest score.
>
>
>>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>That is correct, jerkoff and Alec, if he is in an honest mood, will tell you
>my opinion of such tests,
>
>	But then he has not been in an honest mood since he arrived here.

    Nor have you, jerkoff.  But it is good that you finally confessed to
being the liar we always knew you were.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:33 PDT 1996
Article: 54602 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:21:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4tmce9$5q7@access1.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <3Ge-nOev1075065yn@login.dknet.dk> <4tio30$cik@access5.digex.net> <4tkfr3$fiu@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4tkfr3$fiu@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 29 Jul 1996 12:15:28 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <3Ge-nOev1075065yn@login.dknet.dk>,
>>Ole Kreiberg  wrote:
>>> In the article in Encyclopedia Britannica from 1943 and 1946 you can read
>>>that the exposure time to HCN for insects are one hour.
>
>>    But the _actual_ exposure time will vary depending on whether it is a
>>delousing chamber with powered circulation or a house with many nooks,
>>crannies, bedding, etc.  The gas must actually penetrate into all areas at
>>a lethal concentration.  In a delousing chamber specially designed for the
>>task, this is not a problem and so the exposure time can be less than for
>>a house or barracks.
>
>Designed?  I thought we were passed going over design factors.

    Not as long as you continue to lie about them.

>Remember the heating required for a proper design?

    BZZT.  Better.  Not proper.  Just better.


>remember none of that heating ever existing for the LKs?

    Remember the memo proposing to divert waste heat from the furnaces to
heat the LK?


>There is not need to go over this again.  

    That depends on whether you continue to lie and pretend there is no
physical evidence, when there is.  But at least you have confessed that
you are a liar.  That is progress.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:34 PDT 1996
Article: 54608 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS
Date: 31 Jul 1996 09:17:54 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4tnme2$210@access5.digex.net>
References: <31fb9646.9042632@news.pacificnet.net> <4tn037$qos@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tn037$qos@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 28 Jul 1996 16:35:54 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>II.
>>	According to the Holocaust story, instead of building chimneys
>>right in the immediate proximity of the furnaces for evacuation of the
>>flaming residue from raging coke fires, and availing of the long and
>>widely known principle of draft and chimney design, the Germans built
>>them 20 to 40 feet away so they would have to install underground
>>flues from furnace to chimney. Of course since heat rises this setup
>>would necessitate the need for some sort of mechanical assist like
>>heat resistant blowers to draw the smoke and hot ash first down into
>>the ground or cellar (take your pick), and then through the connecting
>>flue(s) to the chimney.
>
>In fact, until you raised this point, it was a holohugger act of faith that
>they were exactly as you describe them.

    Huh?  Act of faith?  The plans exist.


>I remember going over it months ago.

    But then, you remember many things which are not so.  You make John
Dean look like archival videotape even when you are not deliberately
lying.  And you are a confessed liar:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

    You once (at least) posted Vrba's confession of lying, apparently to
show that the testimony of witnesses cannot be taken seriously.  So your
admitted lie means you cannot be taken seriously.  Sorry about that.

>>III.
>>	According to Holocaust facts, the Germans had murdered 2 million
>>at Treblinka,

    No, according to the estimate of one guard who was in no position to
make any accurate count.  But you and Tom Moran both dishonestly use the
most extreme numbers you can find and pretend they are the norm.

>but not before they had buried hundreds of thousands
>>then realized they better dig them up and cremate them and then rebury
>>any remains. This same thing happened at Auschwitz. Now, whether the
>>Germans started to bury bodies at Auschwitz after they had already
>>started to dig them up at Treblinka would be contingent on Holocaust
>>dates.
>
>But now everyone "believes" in 800,000 at Treblinka leaving the EG to 
>take up the slack in the six million as usual.  

    Lying or not understanding matters as usual.  The six million figure
was not arrived at by adding up numbers at camps.  We have gone over this
before but you either do not remember it or lie about it as usual.

    You are a confessed liar just like Vrba whose confession you yourself
posted.  So why do you expect anyone to believe any of your unsupported
assertions? 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


[...]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:35 PDT 1996
Article: 54626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!caen!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrottung-end of debate
Date: 30 Jul 1996 10:06:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4tl4sk$7h2@access5.digex.net>
References: <4tkumf$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>
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In article <4tkumf$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:

>Ausrottung does indeed mean to exterminate, or wipe out, and is
>frequently used in precisely that connection.  This should not even be a
>cause for contention.  "To uproot is also a secondary meaninf which
>refers ONLY to plants, not human beings.  There are other German words
>commonly used for that purpose.


    Thank you.  The extent to which some revisionists have gone to
obfuscate the clear meaning led me to joke that they'd also translate
Himmler's "umbringen" as "to bring around" - i.e., they were just trying
to bring the Jews around to see the light with some friendly persuasion. 


>It is always more noble to be honest, but sometimes it really hurts. 

    I would think that knowing oneself to be a liar would hurt worse.  But
I see so many counterexamples here that I guess that's not a universal
view.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:35 PDT 1996
Article: 54639 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: 30 Jul 1996 20:41:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4tma3k$3h5@access1.digex.net>
References: <4t6kj5$lkk@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4t7d8j$su@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4tbjpt$lo4@shiva.usa.net> <4tcmom$hbd@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4tcmom$hbd@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
confessed liar Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 26 Jul 1996 23:19:25 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>	Perhaps you would like to provide a few?  After all with all of
>>	the horrors reported even by people claiming to have
>>	participated in them, we never come across even reports of
>>	castration much less actual examples of it.

    I am still not yet sure if any of the males survived - the Green
Series only gives a short summary, and it would be necessary to go to the
full transcripts in order to see if there was survivor testimony. 
However, there have now been posts referring to female survivors of some
of the sterilization experiments.  For reasons I will give below, I do not
plan to go to the National Archives to look for the transcripts. 


>>On 25 Jul 1996 06:04:42 GMT,
>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) responded:
>
>>	Where have you looked?  In the bottom drawer of your bureau?
>>	Under the pile of dirty socks in your bedroom?
>
>>In article <4t7d8j$su@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
>
>>	Where else would I look with an expectation of finding them?  
>

[snip]

>	What is clear is that if there was any case whatsoever for any of this
>nonsense the FIRST thing that would be presented would be the physical
>evidence.  

    It WAS, fool.

    The letter from Brack _is_ physical evidence.

    You can touch it.

    You can test it.

    You can look at the personal stationery and the handwritten signature.

    You can look at the corroborating letters from Himmler and Blankenburg
mentioning Brack's letter and consistent with a program of sterilization
experimentation.

    Physical evidence.

    You can show it to Brack and get his confirmation that the letter is
genuine - as you would know if you had bothered to get off your fat, lazy
ass and look up the Doctors' Trial in Vol. I of the Green Series.  In
other words, it is now physical evidence corroborated by testimony. 

    Give it up, child.

    Given that the letter itself is fully corroborated physical evidence,
I see no need to go to the NA and get the transcripts.  Especially since
you are a wilful, self-confessed liar with absolutely no interest in the
truth anyway. 

    For Mr. Giwer's confession, see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:36 PDT 1996
Article: 54661 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: 31 Jul 1996 09:54:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4tnoj9$3h5@access5.digex.net>
References: <4sptl9$p7q@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t26l9$pml@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <6bf_9607231742@tor250.org> <4t6a7k$3r8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4t6a7k$3r8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 23 Jul 96 12:02:28, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>><+[No historian has ever] [Tue 23 Jul 96 05:38][Tue 23 Jul 96 10:47][0]*>
>
>
>> mnc>     Not one person ever found with radiation damage to the
>> mnc> reproductive organs.
>
>> mnc>     What a piece of shit this holocaust is.
>
>>Not one person ever cured of Smallpox by leeches.
>
>>Pull your fingers from your ears, Matt.
>
>It is one more example of the complete lack of physical evidence for this 
>mass extermination.  

    No, it is one more example of Matt Giwer lying.  The letter itself is
physical evidence.  You can touch it.  And physical evidence has been
presented before.  Matt Giwer merely denies that it is evidence.

    There is physical evidence of cyanide use in the Kremas, and physical
evidence of lots of dead Jews.  Matt Giwer simply denies that there is
physical evidence _unequivocally_ linking the gas with the deaths, only
eyewitness testimony.  He says the morgues could have been fumigated for
lice, maggots, and rats.  But has he produced a dead louse, maggot, or rat
as physical evidence?  No.  Why should it be necessary to fumigate for
rats at all?  Why not just keep the gas-tight door closed and put grilles
over the drains?  Are the rats going to nibble through concrete? 

    By Matt Giwer's standards there is physical evidence for the bombing
of Dresden, and physical evidence of a big fire, but he was completely
unable to establish the linkage between the bombs and the big fire on
physical evidence alone.  As I pointed out, bombs would have knocked out
firefighting ability, so fires started by _any_ cause could spread
unchecked.  And of course that firestorm, which Mr. Giwer tried to claim
existed and served as physical evidence of the linkage between the bombs
and the fires, is only known through hysterical eyewitness accounts which
give us no physical evidence to distinguish between a specially-created
firestorm and something like the Chicago or London fires which occurred
before airplanes were invented.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:37 PDT 1996
Article: 54681 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 31 Jul 1996 12:28:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <4to1j1$b5o@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tkfj9$fiu@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <31FE19BB.533C@gryn.org> <4tn807$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tn807$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:18:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>Incinerated hair was found?  By what miracle do you propose this occurred?
>
>>Matt opens mouth.
>
>>Matt inserts foot.
>
>>Matt kicks.
>
>>Matt claims conspiracy.
>
>>Trya  again, Matt. If the PARTIALLY-BURNT remains of the last firing of
>>a Krema were not disturbed, it would be easy to distinguish the hair.
>
>>Years ago, when I smoked a pipe and used an unusual tobacco blend, some
>>of the folks at the club decided to stick a clump of hair into my
>>tobacco. 
>
>>It stank, of course, but when I knocked the ashes out of my pipe, the
>>hair was clearly recognizable.
>
>This is fansinating.  The MOST flammable part of the human body remains after
>the rest of the body is partially burned.

    Suppose the body were at the periphery of the pyre, head out.

> 
>>>It is a question what is more amazing, what people will report or what 
>>>people  will believe.
>
>>More Giwerism. 
>
>>Prove otherwise, Matt.
>
>	You are a better engineer than that.

    Still no evidence that it is impossible for unburnt hair to be found.

    Just the unsupported assertion of an admitted liar.


>>> >And of course, there are photos of incinerated human remains in the
>>> >demolished furnaces of the Kremas.
>>> 
>>>         What dies incineration have to do with the cause of death?
>
>>Let's see if we can simplify it for you, Matt - since you're once again
>>playing the child and saying "NOT SO!"
>
>>Mark has specified where the ashes were sent. 
>
>They are not ashes.  I have given you the weight and volume and
>description of what they really are.  But you ignore that.

    They were ground and scattered in various places, according to the
witnesses.  You have not addressed this.


>>You have previously claimed that the ashes would have been easily
>>detectable in a specific field.
>
>>Mark has shot this down. He has put a link between the krema ashes and
>>their destination - killing a previous argument.
>
>	No he did not.  Even he dropped it.

    Given that you have repeatedly (even admittedly) lied about
discussions here, care to give some documentation?

    Of course not.


>>Your attempt at strawmaning and groundshifting notwithstanding, here is
>>the answer to your "missing ashes".
>
>>The gassing has already been established. If you wish, I can email you
>>the necessary evidence, testimonies and links.
>
>	I am beginning to think you have given up your engineering honesty 
>on this subject.

    Of what value is an assertion of dishonesty when it comes from an
admitted liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted


>	You have refused to come back to the original issue of the 
>descriptions of ZB gassing not matching HCN gassing.

    Please describe how.  Give documentation this time.  Also show some
evidence of actually understanding what the witnesses were saying, the
difference between being close to the ZB and far from it, the difference
between being gassed with X amount of ZB and 2X amount of ZB, etc.  For
that matter, give some evidence of literacy.  "After a few minutes there
was silence" does not support a claim that a witness said the screaming
went on for tens of minutes.  Do you know that yet?

>	Why?

    Why not give some actual documentation, admitted liar?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:38 PDT 1996
Article: 54685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 31 Jul 1996 12:09:33 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4to0ft$a6l@access5.digex.net>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tkfr3$fiu@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <31FE147F.1B6D@gryn.org> <4tn84t$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4tn84t$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:56:15 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>>GIWERISM ALERT!!
>
>>Sorry Matt - you blew it again and coverups or zig zags are not allowed.
>
>>The gas chambers were heated by the equivalent of a few hundred
>>incandescent light bulbs - known as human beings.
>
>As an engineer you know better than that regarding the introduction of Polish
>winter air.  

    Please describe how this air was introduced into the underground
chamber, when, in what amount, and at what step during the process.
Supply documentation.

    The unsupported assertion of an admitted liar like yourself
contributes nothing to the discussion. 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Jul 31 13:59:39 PDT 1996
Article: 54686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!info.ucla.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 31 Jul 1996 12:05:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <4to08a$a02@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:81196 alt.revisionism:54686 alt.usenet.kooks:27716

In article <4tkdoj$ife@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 30 Jul 1996 04:43:31 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
>wrote:
>
>>Herr Puckler (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: On 26 Jul 1996 23:40:07 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>: >Indeed, the cost of sending people to concentration camps was borne
>>: >by the victims themselves, as the Nazis confiscated their life's
>>: >savings to pay for the transport.
>
>>: Fascinating, actually.  Do you have the documentation of the paperwork to
>>: proof this?  Or are you ready to claim it was worse than what happened to 
>>: the Japanese-Americans?  
>
>>: 	Remember, your word is confiscated and an indication of all assets.  
>
>>The documentation for this does exist, and is described by Hilberg (whose
>>book, as I recall, you have not read).  Indeed, one of the problems faced
>>by the RSHA was that the assets of the Jews were in local currency and
>>the (German) railroad wanted to be paid in Reichsmark.
>
>	That is an amazing one.  The railroads dictating to the government 
>the terms under which they would accept payment or not ship.  I can see
>the Nazis quivering at the threat of a railroad refusal right now.

    The Nazis did operate under the guise of law, especially within
Germany.  Do you think that the U. S. government could suddenly decide to
start paying its debts in rubles?  Your objection is worthless.


>    It would appear I have been wise in not wasting the time to read
>Hilberg.

    Since you are an illiterate, that is a true statement.  Have you yet
figured out the difference between "after a few minutes there was silence"
(what the witness said) and "the screaming went on for tens of minutes"
(what you claimed the testimony supported)?

    The documentation has been offered and your attempt to shift the
grounds of the argument does not make up for your complete failure to
address it with anything but an imbecilic objection.  Sorry about that. 
Give it up, child. 

    Did I remember to tell people that you are a confessed liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

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