The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/stein.michael/1996/stein.0596


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat May  4 23:44:42 PDT 1996
Article: 34828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment
Date: 1 May 1996 20:41:06 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <4m90b2$ehc@access5.digex.net>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <4lp9og$fbd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4lutvh$dqg@access5.digex.net> <4lvg2g$be6@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4lvg2g$be6@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4lp9og$fbd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4lclpd$8tp@wi.combase.com>, 
>>>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>
>>>>>	You continue to fail to post the P Chem equations for HCN with the
>>>>>constants filled in, Mr. MS Chemist.  Why is that?
>>>
>>>>I am assuming Mr. Giwer is referring to me although I am not an "MS
>>>>Chemist."  What does he think "the P Chem equations for HCN with the
>>>>constants filled in" means?  Does Mr. Giwer care to see the Schrodinger
>>>>Equation? Perhaps, he is referring to his ignorance regarding the vapor
>>>>pressure of HCN?  Perhaps he is referring to the solution to Fick's
>>>>second law of diffusion?   
>>>
>>>	Perhaps you could simply post the equations that support your
>>>"high vapor pressure" explains everything contention?
>
>>    As Mr. Giwer ought to know, the properties of compounds are actually
>>determined experimentally.
>
>>    Therefore I think we can settle this matter quite easily.
>
>>    Obviously Mr. Giwer believes that since the boiling point of HCN is 26
>>degrees, it will evaporate very, very slowly at low temperatures. 
>>Therefore I am sure he will have no qualms about volunteering to spend
>>five minutes without a gas mask in a five-degree room with a concentration
>>of Zyklon equivalent to that used in the Birkenau gas chambers.
>
>	Obviously you are completely ignorant of P Chem and have no
>business pretending to contribute to this discussion.  

    My knowledge of P Chem or lack thereof proves nothing about your
knowledge of P Chem.  You are the one making claims to know something
about the subject, not I.  Therefore you are the one bearing the burden of
proof.  But you know that.

    Would you be in danger under the conditions described or not?  The
possible answers are "Yes," "No," or "I don't know."  It is the state of
your knowledge that is at issue, not mine.


>	You have no concept of any science whatsoever or if you do you
>are misrepresenting what little you do know.  Your credentials
>are invited.

    Credentials?  Now, why would a man who said, "You folks still playing
around college seem to think credentials mean something.  Some day you
will join the real world and learn better," ask for credentials?

Source:
   Subject: Re: Translation needed was: (Re: Remembering the holocaust)
   Date: 1996/03/16
   MessageID: <4ie722$p5o@wi.combase.com>
   Linkname: DejaNews Document 830996164.12380:dnserver.db96q1:9597438
        URL:
          http://dejanews.dejanews.com/cgi-bin/dngetdoc.html?RECNUM=95974
          38+SERVER=dnserver.db96q1+CONTEXT=830996164.12380

    (In case you're wondering, it was a matter of but a few minutes to
find the above text.  It appears I have a much better memory for what you
said than you do yourself.) 

    Obviously you are trying to evade the issue.  You pretend credentials
mean nothing when you wish to evade debating someone who has them, but you
suddenly decide they mean something when your statements are challenged by
someone who you think does not have them.  But that is only what one would
expect from a dishonest troll.

    My ignorance is not at issue here.  Yours is.  Hurling insults at me
proves nothing about what you do or don't know.  It is merely a juvenile
attempt to evade accountability for your prior statements.

    But you know that.

    Now, do you seriously doubt the product instructions, and believe that
Zyklon could not be used effectively at five degrees as claimed, or were
you just trolling by _appearing_ to doubt it with language which gives you
"plausible deniability?"

    Psychic prediction: Mr. Giwer will never give a straight answer to the
above question.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat May  4 23:46:25 PDT 1996
Article: 34830 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Adventures in Nizkorland
Date: 4 May 1996 22:35:43 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 100
Message-ID: <4mh45v$j74@access1.digex.net>
References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <4mbc60$fi3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4mf3s6$evg@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4mf3s6$evg@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>Marty Kelley  wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 2 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>>> mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>> 
>>> >    Rauff was deposed in 1972 in Chile (which makes it hard to imagine
>>> >what pressure could be brought to bear on him) and confirmed receiving
>>> >correspondence from Becker about gassing vans. 
>>> 
>>> >        Es ist richtig, dass ich "uber den Einsatz der Gaswagen etwas von
>>> >        Becker bekommen habe. Ich selbst hatte Becker  gesagt, mir einen
>>> >        entsprechenden Bericht zuzusenden.
>>> 
>>> >   My translation:
>>> 
>>> >    "It is correct, that I received something from Becker about the
>>> >introduction of the gassing van.  I myself had told Becker to send me a
>>> >corresponding report."
>>> 
>>> 	Gaswagen is a noun.  Your translation is like airplane into
>>> airing plane.  
>
>>Ever hear of a participial adjective, Mr. Giwer?  
>
>	Not in translation, Herr Idiot.

    It is good to see Mr. Giwer continues to conduct this discussion on a
mature adult level.

    It is also nice to see that Mr. Giwer would never sink to requiring
exact phrasing or else he will claim victory (an accusation he mad in
article <4mf5v1$du@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, Re: eye witness testimony
is unreliable, 4 May 1996).


>	But it is good to see that you believe Herr Stein can not defend
>himself but that you, without any knowledge of the language can
>defend him.

    I am glad he defended me, since your previous post did not arrive on
my system.  It is only due to this exchange that I know that you responded
at all.

    Technically yes, it would be Vergasungswagen for a direct translation
as gassing van.  However, the way they are usually referred to in
discussion around here as gassing vans, so that's the term I used.  I
would think it is the actual thing itself which is the important matter.

    When all else fails, evade the issue.  Call it a gas van if you like. 
Now please address the substance of the post rather than weaseling and
evading over phrasing. 


>>> >URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rauff.walter/
>>> >Walter-Rauff.1972.txt
>>> 
>>> >    Physical evidence corroborated by eyewitness testimony is what I
>>> >believe you asked for.  Now you have it.
> 
>>> 	I have evidence of a very poor translation.  But I am certain our
>>> resident expert in German will swear to your translation.

    Since you consider yourself to have superior knowledge of the German
language, perhaps you would like to provide a translation of the Rauff
deposition for us which shows that he was really talking about innocent
delivery trucks for oxygen, carbon dioxide, etc.

    But of course you cannot address the substance, so you go off into
irrelevant quibbles over translation.  When all else fails, evade the
issue. 


>>What, pray tell, is the difference between "Gas Van" and "Gassing Van"?  
>
>	I would have thought it would be in line with Volkswagen and
>Volksing Wagen.  Are you really as dumb as you pretend?

    When all else fails, evade the issue.


>>(Keep in mind, of course, that translation using the participial adjective 
>>avoids a possible ambiguity in English, where "gas van" could conceivably 
>>refer to a gasoline tanker.  In German, no such ambiguity is possible, since
>>"gasoline" is "das Benzin")
>
>	Are you the resident German expert or can he not speak for
>himself either.  
>
>	A peopling wagon indeed.

    When all else fails, evade the issue.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 00:23:36 PDT 1996
Article: 34833 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: My psychic powers have failed!
Date: 4 May 1996 23:18:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4mh6ma$ked@access1.digex.net>
References: <4lh3c3$i9v@wi.combase.com> <4m8ss0$cgr@access5.digex.net> <4ma0h5$bjf@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4ma0h5$bjf@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
> >    I have just received a psychic flash.
> 
> >    I predict that Mr. Giwer will never reveal what significant thing he
> >has cleverly proved by getting Gordon McFee to ask a question about
> >"Internet Indirect"  in response to Mr. Giwer's posted statement about
> >"Internet Indirect." 
>
> >    You skeptics may scoff at the idea that anyone can predict the future,
> >but stick around and see if this amazing psychic prediction doesn't come
> >true. 
>
> 	Rather I would suggest that when I posted "indirect" the
> respondant post "direct" as my evidence but then you folks are so
> used to changing things in posts this will never come clear save
> to those who care to find the truth.

    Note that Mr. Giwer appears to be insinuating that Gordon McFee posted
something different that what I quoted, and that I changed it.  Yet
despite his frequent repetition of the principle that the person making
the claim bears the responsibility for providing proof, Mr. Giwer provides
no proof that this has happened.

    I offer the following instructions to find the truth, from a source
which as far as I know is completely independent of Nizkor or any poster
here (no, I haven't actually contacted them to check - if Mr. Giwer
claims there is some influence, let him prove it):

    1.  Go to http://www.dejanews.com  [used to be dejanews.dejanews.com]

    2.  Use the "Power search" option to filter for alt.revisionism
        and gmcfee@ibm.net.

    3.  Set the match option to "Any"

    4.  Search for the two strings "internet direct" and "internet
        indirect" (be sure to put quotes around both strings).

    5.  Observe closely that in every post where Mr. Giwer said
        "Internet Direct," Mr. McFee responded "Internet Direct."
        In the one post where Mr. Giwer said "Internet Indirect,"
        Mr. McFee responded with the very same (incorrect) name
        "Internet Indirect."


    Contrary to Mr. Giwer's insinuation, a neutral archive has no record
of Gordon McFee responding with a correct name to an incorrect one.  Mr. 
Giwer has no evidence such as he "suggests."  And contrary to Mr. Giwer's
insinuation, a neutral archive shows I made no change in the meaning.  The
only changes I am used to making when quoting other people's posts are for
reasons of brevity and adjustment of margins.  Mr. Giwer is challenged to
cite any DejaNews URLs which show otherwise.

    And now I must report that alas, I have no psychic powers.  Contrary
to my prediction, Mr. Giwer has revealed what significant thing he has
proved (yet again) beyond a reasonable doubt: that Matt Giwer is either
completely dishonest or delusional in the clinical sense.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 00:32:16 PDT 1996
Article: 19105 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: One question for Matt Giwer, Overrated Troll
Date: 4 May 1996 23:56:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4mh8u3$l7i@access1.digex.net>
References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m7230$kpr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4MAY199613260044@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19105 alt.discrimination:46467 alt.revisionism:34840 alt.skinheads:21776 can.politics:42712

In article <4MAY199613260044@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
Daniel Mittleman  wrote:
>In article , 
>jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) writes...
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>>>>In article <4mcadj$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>>>>:      Remember that was a stated purpose of Nizkor.  Who was it who
>>>>>>: said, Jews never forget?  
>>>>>
>>>>>>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?  
>>>>>
>>>>>>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.
>>>>>
>>>>>        If your news feed is failing complain to your provider.
>>>

[Repeated Giwer evasion snipped]

>    Your post did not make it to my server either, Giwer.  Post the article
>    ID and so that I can give my sys admin adequate details to act on the
>    error.

    The post with the evidence of Nizkor's sinister Griswold-firing
purpose also failed to make it here.  I will point out that when Mr. 
Giwer failed to receive posts, he did not complain to his provider. 
Instead, he requested reposts.  Why does he not follow that same standard?

    Because he is a dishonest troll.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 01:03:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47654 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Matthias Michael is a big, fat idiot like Rush Limbaugh
Supersedes: <4mh6dg$k6s@access1.digex.net>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 5 May 1996 00:08:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4mh9j1$lhg@access1.digex.net>
References: <4mavre$cqt@news.nyu.edu> <4mcjct$2kg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4mdbrr$ma5@news.nyu.edu> <4mepde$kdi@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27728 alt.revisionism:34845 soc.culture.jewish:47654

    Followups to alt.revisionism only.

In article <4mepde$kdi@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>Simply put, Giwer demanded to know how Mr. McFee knew a name that Mr. 
>>Giwer had typed in the previous post.  Master of the obvious, Mr. Giwer.
>
>	I have the original message rather than the one with the changed
>name that is now circulating.

    It is indeed a pity that news transmission has been so unreliable
lately.  Nobody else seems to have it, not even DejaNews.  You wouldn't
care to give an article ID, would you? 

    I thought not.

    What is _really_ amazing is that _your own_ post responding to the
amazing mutating post also managed to mutate and change Gordon McFee's
quoted text to "Internet Indirect."  And this, too, is recorded for
posterity on DejaNews. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun May  5 01:11:28 PDT 1996
Article: 34841 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: eye witness testimony is unreliable
Date: 1 May 1996 21:36:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4m93jn$gba@access5.digex.net>
References: <4lmb16$9o0@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4lmsm0$a7m@news.enter.net> <4lopnv$si4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4m16fg$16t6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4m16fg$16t6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
Gord McFee  wrote:
>In article <4lopnv$si4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, 
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) said:
>>Oh great killfile guru, are you perhaps referring to the many posts about
>>Germany having been a signatory to an international agreement that had no
>>penalties attached to its violation?
>
>One has to wonder why the Giwer-troll doesn't post the alleged post.  One
>has to wonder whether there is such a post.  Then one realizes we are
>talking about the Giwer-troll here and realizes that there in *not* such a
>post.

    Well, he _is_ now getting on to something that I recall as actually
having been said.  Once, not many times.  But that is only my worthless
eyewitness recollection so I am sure that Mr. Giwer will not be so
hypocritical as to take what I say in this post as any real evidence that
such a post as he claims exists.  And even if it exists, there is always
the possibility that the poster was not correct in making that statement.

    I suppose I _might_ be able to find it on DejaNews (assuming my
worthless eyewitness recollection is correct), but I have no interest in
doing his work for him. He made the claim, he bears the burden of proof. 
Funny how he always remembers that when other people make claims, but
can't seem to remember it when people ask him to support his claims. 

    But that's how trolls are.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 01:11:29 PDT 1996
Article: 34848 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: the gang of six
Supersedes: <4mh9sl$lkf@access1.digex.net>
Date: 5 May 1996 00:14:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4mha02$lm7@access1.digex.net>
References: <4l177k$hs5@wi.combase.com> <4lolvn$7ck@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4m5c75$a4v@access5.digex.net> <4m6i8h$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4m6i8h$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4lolvn$7ck@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	I believe my statement was that if people are stupid enough go
>>>around with hot buttons and wear "push me" signs that I would
>>>certainly oblige them.  
>
>>    My "hot buttons" are lies and stupidity.
>
>>    You certainly have been an obliging fellow.
>
>	Your hot buttons are your sacred holocaust beliefs.

    As you can certainly have no proof for this unless you can demonstrate
that you possess the ability to read minds, you are once again being an
obliging fellow. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 12:53:04 PDT 1996
Article: 34863 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: 5 May 1996 09:20:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <4mi9vc$5d1@access1.digex.net>
References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net> <4m5toc$l1j@moe.cc.emory.edu> <318BD9FC.7A9C@niven.imsweb.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27739 alt.revisionism:34863 soc.culture.jewish:47673

In article <318BD9FC.7A9C@niven.imsweb.net>,
Bud   wrote:
>william c anderson wrote:
>> 
>> : tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> :
>> :       Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"? Like if one should say
>> : 'The Jews kill children and justify it'?  The Jews roust whole
>> : civilian societies and say it is a good thing'.
>> 
>> Both of those statements are antisemitic, and neither is true, so
>> your question can't be answered from your examples.
>> 
>> Hint:  Think about the difference between the phrases "the Jews" and
>> "some Jews".  Better yet, think about the difference between the
>> phrases "the Jews" and "many, many people from a wide variety of
>> ethnic backgrounds".
>> 
>> Bill
>
>Get real, Mr. Anderson!  Tom Moran did not say "ALL Jews",

    And he did not say "SOME Jews."


>and you and everyone else clearly understand what his point is.

    The number of self-proclaimed mind readers on Usenet is amazing.  If I
had a dollar for every time someone said I knew or thought something that
I in fact did not know or think, I would be a very wealthy man. 

    I understand Tom Moran's point to be bashing Jews.  Of course, I have
been reading his posts for a long time.  Perhaps you have not.


>What you are trying 
>to do is ignore some of the truth in his statement.

    And you seem to be ignoring some of the lie (and lie-by-omission) in
his statement. 


>I suggest you read a 
>copy of a book recently published in Australian entitled "The Hand That 
>Signed the Paper."  A graphic book telling about some of the atrocities 
>done in Russian under "some" Jews leadership.

    And some non-Jews.  But what I want to know is, why don't these books
make a point to tell us about atrocities committed under the leadership of
people with moustaches, people with wide feet, etc.?  Why is it more
relevant to call attention to the Jewishness of some of the people?  Is
some causal link being suggested between the Jewish ancestry and the
atrocities?  A lie by omission is simply a _selective_ presentation of
facts.

    And again, Tom Moran did not say "SOME Jews."  "THE Jews" is a much
broader generalization.


>And by the way, I don't 
>consider most modern "Jews" to be such (not from the tribe of Judah or 
>the Judeans.  So, to me the word anti-semitic isn't applicable.

    Etymology is not the source of meaning.  The term was _coined_ to mean
being anti-Jewish, in the modern sense of Jewish.  That's how it's used
today.  So that's what it means regardless of your protestations that
words should mean what their linguistic roots mean.  Language is a
convention. 

    A frankfurter is not from Frankfurt, a wiener is not from Vienna, and
a hot dog has not one scrap of canine flesh in it.  So what do you call
it, since you do not believe in using words which are not true to their
etymological roots?  "The sausage incorrectly called a hot dog?"  (Reminds
me of "The artist formerly known as 'Prince'....")


>I do 
>however dislike arrogance and deliberate distortions wherever it might 
>come from, and there is far too much of that going on in this newsgroup.

    There are three newsgroups to which this is posted; from which are you
reading it?  But if you're reading from alt.revisionism, and you're
reading the posts of Matt Giwer, you're certainly correct.

    If you do not like distortions, please don't distort "THE Jews" into
"SOME Jews."  They don't mean the same thing.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 12:53:05 PDT 1996
Article: 34892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 5 May 1996 11:00:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4mifq5$819@access1.digex.net>
References: <30APR96.14178459.0017@IBM.UTM.EDU>  <2MAY199621300948@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:21802 alt.revisionism:34892

    Followups to alt.revisionism.

In article ,
Marty Kelley   wrote:
>On 2 May 1996, Daniel Mittleman wrote:
>
>> In article , 
>> Marty Kelley  writes...
>> >Damn! I guess we'd better start an investigation of what religion 
>> >Tucson's Pima Air Museum is affiliated with!
>> 
>>     They are Cessnaterians.
>
>Heathen!  I happen to know that you don't even believe in a Supreme Boeing.

    Mr. Giwer will certainly want to know if one is a Cessnatarian by
birth or by Convairsion.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 12:53:06 PDT 1996
Article: 34893 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment
Date: 5 May 1996 11:07:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4mig83$8bt@access1.digex.net>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <4lutvh$dqg@access5.digex.net> <4m460o$oq4@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Fascinating that another educated chemist does not simply use any
>of his standard reference material to simply post the equations
>that would give a ballpark first order approximation for the rate
>of outgassing.  
>
>	But it appears that two highly educated chemists in a row appear
>to wish to rely upon handwaving rather what for them would be
>such a minor task.  

    Why should they go to the trouble of doing so for a person who is not
capable of understanding or verifying the correctness of the equations?
What is the point?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 12:53:06 PDT 1996
Article: 34897 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: 5 May 1996 11:45:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4miifk$dm1@access1.digex.net>
References: <318a1a42.3317524@news.pacificnet.net> <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out
>of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though
>I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost
>in World War Two.  But these postings about rivers of fat are just too
>much for me.  How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like
>this?

    Holocaust deniers maintain that the tale grows in the telling, and I
must admit they have a point.  A witness says that fat was collected in
buckets, or that a trench was dug, and before you know it, someone says
there were "rivers" of fat.

    But was that "someone" a witness, or a Holocaust denier distorting
and exaggerating what the witness said in order to discredit it?  I often
have a hard time finding that out.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 14:37:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34863 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: 5 May 1996 09:20:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <4mi9vc$5d1@access1.digex.net>
References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net> <4m5toc$l1j@moe.cc.emory.edu> <318BD9FC.7A9C@niven.imsweb.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27739 alt.revisionism:34863 soc.culture.jewish:47673

In article <318BD9FC.7A9C@niven.imsweb.net>,
Bud   wrote:
>william c anderson wrote:
>> 
>> : tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> :
>> :       Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"? Like if one should say
>> : 'The Jews kill children and justify it'?  The Jews roust whole
>> : civilian societies and say it is a good thing'.
>> 
>> Both of those statements are antisemitic, and neither is true, so
>> your question can't be answered from your examples.
>> 
>> Hint:  Think about the difference between the phrases "the Jews" and
>> "some Jews".  Better yet, think about the difference between the
>> phrases "the Jews" and "many, many people from a wide variety of
>> ethnic backgrounds".
>> 
>> Bill
>
>Get real, Mr. Anderson!  Tom Moran did not say "ALL Jews",

    And he did not say "SOME Jews."


>and you and everyone else clearly understand what his point is.

    The number of self-proclaimed mind readers on Usenet is amazing.  If I
had a dollar for every time someone said I knew or thought something that
I in fact did not know or think, I would be a very wealthy man. 

    I understand Tom Moran's point to be bashing Jews.  Of course, I have
been reading his posts for a long time.  Perhaps you have not.


>What you are trying 
>to do is ignore some of the truth in his statement.

    And you seem to be ignoring some of the lie (and lie-by-omission) in
his statement. 


>I suggest you read a 
>copy of a book recently published in Australian entitled "The Hand That 
>Signed the Paper."  A graphic book telling about some of the atrocities 
>done in Russian under "some" Jews leadership.

    And some non-Jews.  But what I want to know is, why don't these books
make a point to tell us about atrocities committed under the leadership of
people with moustaches, people with wide feet, etc.?  Why is it more
relevant to call attention to the Jewishness of some of the people?  Is
some causal link being suggested between the Jewish ancestry and the
atrocities?  A lie by omission is simply a _selective_ presentation of
facts.

    And again, Tom Moran did not say "SOME Jews."  "THE Jews" is a much
broader generalization.


>And by the way, I don't 
>consider most modern "Jews" to be such (not from the tribe of Judah or 
>the Judeans.  So, to me the word anti-semitic isn't applicable.

    Etymology is not the source of meaning.  The term was _coined_ to mean
being anti-Jewish, in the modern sense of Jewish.  That's how it's used
today.  So that's what it means regardless of your protestations that
words should mean what their linguistic roots mean.  Language is a
convention. 

    A frankfurter is not from Frankfurt, a wiener is not from Vienna, and
a hot dog has not one scrap of canine flesh in it.  So what do you call
it, since you do not believe in using words which are not true to their
etymological roots?  "The sausage incorrectly called a hot dog?"  (Reminds
me of "The artist formerly known as 'Prince'....")


>I do 
>however dislike arrogance and deliberate distortions wherever it might 
>come from, and there is far too much of that going on in this newsgroup.

    There are three newsgroups to which this is posted; from which are you
reading it?  But if you're reading from alt.revisionism, and you're
reading the posts of Matt Giwer, you're certainly correct.

    If you do not like distortions, please don't distort "THE Jews" into
"SOME Jews."  They don't mean the same thing.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 14:37:01 PDT 1996
Article: 34892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 5 May 1996 11:00:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4mifq5$819@access1.digex.net>
References: <30APR96.14178459.0017@IBM.UTM.EDU>  <2MAY199621300948@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:21802 alt.revisionism:34892

    Followups to alt.revisionism.

In article ,
Marty Kelley   wrote:
>On 2 May 1996, Daniel Mittleman wrote:
>
>> In article , 
>> Marty Kelley  writes...
>> >Damn! I guess we'd better start an investigation of what religion 
>> >Tucson's Pima Air Museum is affiliated with!
>> 
>>     They are Cessnaterians.
>
>Heathen!  I happen to know that you don't even believe in a Supreme Boeing.

    Mr. Giwer will certainly want to know if one is a Cessnatarian by
birth or by Convairsion.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 14:37:01 PDT 1996
Article: 34893 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment
Date: 5 May 1996 11:07:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4mig83$8bt@access1.digex.net>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <4lutvh$dqg@access5.digex.net> <4m460o$oq4@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Fascinating that another educated chemist does not simply use any
>of his standard reference material to simply post the equations
>that would give a ballpark first order approximation for the rate
>of outgassing.  
>
>	But it appears that two highly educated chemists in a row appear
>to wish to rely upon handwaving rather what for them would be
>such a minor task.  

    Why should they go to the trouble of doing so for a person who is not
capable of understanding or verifying the correctness of the equations?
What is the point?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 14:37:02 PDT 1996
Article: 34897 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: 5 May 1996 11:45:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4miifk$dm1@access1.digex.net>
References: <318a1a42.3317524@news.pacificnet.net> <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out
>of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though
>I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost
>in World War Two.  But these postings about rivers of fat are just too
>much for me.  How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like
>this?

    Holocaust deniers maintain that the tale grows in the telling, and I
must admit they have a point.  A witness says that fat was collected in
buckets, or that a trench was dug, and before you know it, someone says
there were "rivers" of fat.

    But was that "someone" a witness, or a Holocaust denier distorting
and exaggerating what the witness said in order to discredit it?  I often
have a hard time finding that out.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 18:41:28 PDT 1996
Article: 34863 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: 5 May 1996 09:20:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <4mi9vc$5d1@access1.digex.net>
References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net> <4m5toc$l1j@moe.cc.emory.edu> <318BD9FC.7A9C@niven.imsweb.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27739 alt.revisionism:34863 soc.culture.jewish:47673

In article <318BD9FC.7A9C@niven.imsweb.net>,
Bud   wrote:
>william c anderson wrote:
>> 
>> : tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> :
>> :       Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"? Like if one should say
>> : 'The Jews kill children and justify it'?  The Jews roust whole
>> : civilian societies and say it is a good thing'.
>> 
>> Both of those statements are antisemitic, and neither is true, so
>> your question can't be answered from your examples.
>> 
>> Hint:  Think about the difference between the phrases "the Jews" and
>> "some Jews".  Better yet, think about the difference between the
>> phrases "the Jews" and "many, many people from a wide variety of
>> ethnic backgrounds".
>> 
>> Bill
>
>Get real, Mr. Anderson!  Tom Moran did not say "ALL Jews",

    And he did not say "SOME Jews."


>and you and everyone else clearly understand what his point is.

    The number of self-proclaimed mind readers on Usenet is amazing.  If I
had a dollar for every time someone said I knew or thought something that
I in fact did not know or think, I would be a very wealthy man. 

    I understand Tom Moran's point to be bashing Jews.  Of course, I have
been reading his posts for a long time.  Perhaps you have not.


>What you are trying 
>to do is ignore some of the truth in his statement.

    And you seem to be ignoring some of the lie (and lie-by-omission) in
his statement. 


>I suggest you read a 
>copy of a book recently published in Australian entitled "The Hand That 
>Signed the Paper."  A graphic book telling about some of the atrocities 
>done in Russian under "some" Jews leadership.

    And some non-Jews.  But what I want to know is, why don't these books
make a point to tell us about atrocities committed under the leadership of
people with moustaches, people with wide feet, etc.?  Why is it more
relevant to call attention to the Jewishness of some of the people?  Is
some causal link being suggested between the Jewish ancestry and the
atrocities?  A lie by omission is simply a _selective_ presentation of
facts.

    And again, Tom Moran did not say "SOME Jews."  "THE Jews" is a much
broader generalization.


>And by the way, I don't 
>consider most modern "Jews" to be such (not from the tribe of Judah or 
>the Judeans.  So, to me the word anti-semitic isn't applicable.

    Etymology is not the source of meaning.  The term was _coined_ to mean
being anti-Jewish, in the modern sense of Jewish.  That's how it's used
today.  So that's what it means regardless of your protestations that
words should mean what their linguistic roots mean.  Language is a
convention. 

    A frankfurter is not from Frankfurt, a wiener is not from Vienna, and
a hot dog has not one scrap of canine flesh in it.  So what do you call
it, since you do not believe in using words which are not true to their
etymological roots?  "The sausage incorrectly called a hot dog?"  (Reminds
me of "The artist formerly known as 'Prince'....")


>I do 
>however dislike arrogance and deliberate distortions wherever it might 
>come from, and there is far too much of that going on in this newsgroup.

    There are three newsgroups to which this is posted; from which are you
reading it?  But if you're reading from alt.revisionism, and you're
reading the posts of Matt Giwer, you're certainly correct.

    If you do not like distortions, please don't distort "THE Jews" into
"SOME Jews."  They don't mean the same thing.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 18:41:29 PDT 1996
Article: 34893 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A modest proposal for an experiment
Date: 5 May 1996 11:07:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4mig83$8bt@access1.digex.net>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <4lutvh$dqg@access5.digex.net> <4m460o$oq4@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4m6bri$jt8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Fascinating that another educated chemist does not simply use any
>of his standard reference material to simply post the equations
>that would give a ballpark first order approximation for the rate
>of outgassing.  
>
>	But it appears that two highly educated chemists in a row appear
>to wish to rely upon handwaving rather what for them would be
>such a minor task.  

    Why should they go to the trouble of doing so for a person who is not
capable of understanding or verifying the correctness of the equations?
What is the point?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 18:41:30 PDT 1996
Article: 34897 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: 5 May 1996 11:45:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4miifk$dm1@access1.digex.net>
References: <318a1a42.3317524@news.pacificnet.net> <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4md7cn$8j3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>I am sure that I am regarded with suspicion, even though I have gone out
>of my way to present such non-denier bona fides as I can, and even though
>I have tried to express sincere sympathy for what the Jewish people lost
>in World War Two.  But these postings about rivers of fat are just too
>much for me.  How can anyone be so credulous as to believe something like
>this?

    Holocaust deniers maintain that the tale grows in the telling, and I
must admit they have a point.  A witness says that fat was collected in
buckets, or that a trench was dug, and before you know it, someone says
there were "rivers" of fat.

    But was that "someone" a witness, or a Holocaust denier distorting
and exaggerating what the witness said in order to discredit it?  I often
have a hard time finding that out.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun May  5 18:41:31 PDT 1996
Article: 34911 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick 'em, I'll gas 'em
Date: 5 May 1996 12:11:02 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4mijum$oml@access1.digex.net>
References: <4ldpjh$duc@Vir.com> <4mccn0$nq2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4meohp$ras@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4meohp$ras@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Your ignorance of engineering does not give a basis for this
>statement.  In other words, knowing you are completely ignorant
>of engineering, you are contradicting me who has 20 years
>experience in engineering.

    Excuse me good sir but my recollection is that you claimed a physics
degree, not engineering.  Would you be so good as to provide your
credentials as an engineer, including your degree(s) and license(s).  As
you know, people can make any grandiose claim on the net, and someone or
other recently warned that the grander the claim, the likelier it is to be
false.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon May  6 00:51:25 PDT 1996
Article: 34983 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!fdn.fr!r2d2.fdn.org!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.politics
Subject: Re: 960505: Jamie's response acked; Toronto conference on postwar occupation
Followup-To: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Date: 5 May 1996 23:34:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4mjs03$7cc@access4.digex.net>
References: <199605051942.AAA008247@infinity.c2.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:891 alt.revisionism:34983 can.politics:42873

    Followups to alt.fan.ernst-zundel and alt.revisionism.

In article <199605051942.AAA008247@infinity.c2.net>,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>The Zundelgrams are posted to alt.fan.ernst-zundel and alt.revisionism
>daily, unedited. The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent the
>views of the poster, who is not the author. Please follow up with your
>opinions.
>
>May 5, 1996
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
>
>*       Jamie McCarthy of Nizkor wants you to visit him and admire what he
>has done.

    I don't recall him asking for admiration, just a reading.  Any
admiration will be up to the reader after comparing and verifying the
claims made.


>He has written a rebuttal on a recent ZGram - the satire on the
>National Socialist regime to bend the laws of nature for their ends.  Jamie
>always lets me know when he has done something extra-naughty.
  
    I am truly surprised to hear Ms. Rimland considers the posting of a
counterargument "extra-naughty" before she even discovers whether there is
anything invalid in it.


>Since I am not an engineer and he is not a writer, I don't wish to pursue
>this further, but I could well imagine that people with scientific
>backgrounds will want to check both sides.

    That is all that one can reasonably ask.


>In fact, if I were Jamie, I'd
>take my treatise straight to some of the engineering news groups because
>that's where the real accolades are waiting.

    Goodness, this sounds rather short-tempered.  Sarcastic and
dismissive, even - yet Ms. Rimland has, by her own admission, not pursued
the matter.  So how does she know it can be dismissed so lightly?


>(http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01)

    Posted/emailed to Jamie McCarthy and Ms. Rimland.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon May  6 11:18:34 PDT 1996
Article: 35001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The idiocy of giwers
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 6 May 1996 09:45:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4mkvp4$ifu@access5.digex.net>
References: <4j12kg$55b@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m3bgf$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mg72n$2mlm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4mgmmp$a4@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27816 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19183 alt.discrimination:46506 alt.revisionism:35001 alt.skinheads:21908

    Followups to alt.revisionism only.

In article <4mgmmp$a4@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
Ken McVay OBC  wrote:
>In article <4mg72n$2mlm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:
>
>>phone calls.  And he still thinks I work for IBM.  Poor frightened
>>delusional old Giwer-troll.
>
>Moved over from Internet Direct, eh? 

    You used the same company name Giwer did in several posts.

    Don't you know that this proves that you are Marduk?

    Of course tomorrow your post will magically mutate on DejaNews and say
"Internet Direct."  And somehow only the Giwer-troll will have the
pristine unmutated copy that says "Internet Indirect," which everyone can
see you clearly wrote above. 

    Unless, of course, this post also magically mutated....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon May  6 11:18:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Stone's unsupported assertion (was: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem))
Date: 6 May 1996 09:48:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4mkvvl$imd@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4m1p9q$pmn@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4m8pub$b3t@access5.digex.net> <1MAY199618064951@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27817 alt.revisionism:35002 soc.culture.jewish:47864

In article <1MAY199618064951@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
Daniel Mittleman  wrote:
>In article <4m8pub$b3t@access5.digex.net>, 
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes...
>>In article <4m1p9q$pmn@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
>>Ourobouros  wrote:
>>>In article , 
>>>jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) says:
>>>>Stone provides no evidence to back up this claim [5% of Jews are
>>>>religious].  It is another of his unsupported assertions.
>>>>
>>>>I challenge Stone to provide evidence to back up his claim.
>>>
>>>You can either take a course of Jewry, for example, the University of
>>>Otago's first year religious course which covers Christianity, Muslim and
>>>Jewry.
>>>
>>>One pamphlet written by an Ashkenazi Jew states that "...only about 5% of
>>>the Jews are religious".
>>>
>>>The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel by Jack Berstein, 
>>>p.15.
>> 
>>    I'm sure you'll think me rude for asking this, but does Bernstein have
>>any solid evidence for this, or are you supporting your unsupported
>>assertion with someone else's unsupported assertion?
>
>    Mike, to be perfectly fair, if a denier wrote something akin to your
>    sentence above, the response he would receive would be: "Don't expect
>    me to do your research for you;  I gave you a cite, you go look it up."

    Ordinarily, yes - but the title cited by Mr. Stone is not one I would
expect to find on a sober and scholarly study of demographics.  :)  Since
Bernstein at the very best looks like a secondary source, in such a case I
at least am accustomed to citing any relevant footnote naming the primary
material along with the main text.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon May  6 17:26:39 PDT 1996
Article: 35052 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The WWII Hoax
Date: 6 May 1996 15:42:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4mlkmg$5la@access5.digex.net>
References: <31669b42.7032542@news.pacificnet.net> <4lu8il$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m3chj$52f@shiva.usa.net> <4m6q4c$ktr@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4m6q4c$ktr@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Just wait until I take on WW II and it defenders arise against my
>fierce assualt upon it ever having occurred.  

    Evidently Mr. Giwer was not reading the newsgroup when the challenge
was issued to present the one or two best pieces of evidence to prove WWII
occurred.  Not one person was able to come up with anything that even came
close.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue May  7 05:09:38 PDT 1996
Article: 35097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: 5 May 1996 09:53:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4mibs9$64f@access1.digex.net>
References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4mchdm$af0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4me0pi$sap@access5.digex.net> <4meifq$mcn@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27853 alt.revisionism:35097 soc.culture.jewish:48024

In article <4meifq$mcn@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>In a different tractate it is made clear that the adult [who rapes
>>a girl under three years old] has
>>committed a personal assault which is punishable by monetary damages to
>>the victim's father.
>
>	It doesn't sound much better in its entirety than in the first
>part only that the father has suffered some form of financial
>harm.

    It is considered a personal injury under Talmudic law and treated the
same as any non-sexual personal injury.  I have never heard of a personal
injury case in the US where the money was given directly into the control
of a minor child rather than the child's parents or legal guardian.  I'll
bet the Giwer-troll hasn't either. 


>Sort of that in involuntary prostitution the pimp must
>still be paid.

    Oh, dear, looks like another attempt to push a hot button and get me
emotional.  It's very effective.  I'm positively yawning with rage. 


>>>	If you have not noticed that implies the true definition of
>>>anti-semitic as including the truth.
>
>>    That is correct.  And the same is true of any prejudicial statement. 
>>One may certainly say something which is true _as far as it goes_ with the
>>intent to single out a particular for opprobrium when the _full_ truth is
>>that the members of the group are, on average, no different in that regard
>>from the speaker's own group.
>
>	This sort of requires one to either say nothing that might appear
>negative or to become a full fledged apologist.  But then, as
>above, it still doesn't look very good.

    All it requires is that one tell the whole truth and be consistent,
something which trolls are not known for.  (I realize this statement may
be considered antitrollistic, but then we have not yet had an answer from
the Giwer-troll as to whether he is a troll by birth or by religion.)


>>>	It has never been a matter of intellectual honesty.
>
>>    Mr. Giwer is certainly not entitled to criticize others for
>>dishonesty, intellectual or otherwise. 
>
>	Those who do not accept all of your many true truths are not
>considered honest.

    That is not the standard I use.  But even if it were, I fail to see
what that has to do with the evidence I have posted that Matt Giwer has
lied about what both he himself and others have written.  (See my recent
post, "My psychic powers have failed!" in alt.revisionism.  It is but one
example.)

    People who tell lies are not considered honest regardless of what they
do or do not accept.  The Giwer-troll has told lies.  It is that simple. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue May  7 05:09:39 PDT 1996
Article: 35098 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: 6 May 1996 17:06:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4mlpli$97l@access5.digex.net>
References: <3174f062.831674@news.pacificnet.net> <4l989a$s0j@wi.combase.com> <3179e051.2509155@news.sr <4mgrrb$7hd@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4mgrrb$7hd@news.nyu.edu>,
Jeremy A. Litt  wrote:
>Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
>: Giwer-troll, in spite of his 163 IQ, has still not figured out the
>: difference between the disjunctive "and" and the conjunctive "and".  
>
>Oh, I think he has.  He just chooses not to acknowledge it.  If he did, he
>wouldn't be able to keep spouting "and" statements when backed into a
>corner.  Have you noticed that lately when cornered he is wont to suddenly
>issue the nonsequiteur "People are Jews by religion AND birth" as if that
>addressed any previous point.
>
>He's got it by now, he just doesn't want to admit it.

    Quite right.  Note how Giwer spews a stream of ungrammatical
neologisms and claims that people who complain are playing dishonest
games, that they can understand him if they want to.  However, despite the
fact that Goldhagen's meaning is quite clear, and people have explained
the point in grammatical, literate English, Giwer refuses to understand.

    But that's how dishonest trolls operate.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu May  9 07:10:35 PDT 1996
Article: 35132 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To M. Giwer: Dad, I'm Converting
Date: 2 May 1996 17:24:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4mb96i$hh4@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4lhppo$ahu@wi.combase.com> <4m16di$3rrg@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4m1g7u$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4m1g7u$iir@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>This is priceless.  The Giwer-troll, obviously about to get tossed from
>>Combase, obviously on his last day of posting there and knowing they can do
>>nothing to him any more--since they have already tossed him, falls deeply
>>into the sauce and somehow imagines that I am Marduk!  
>
>	Which you were the first and only person to post about in this
>conference over a week ago.  How did you know?  Are you claiming
>a lucky guess?  Psychic powers?

    Superior intelligence.  Something a mere 163 IQ type cannot imagine.


>Who else would have known?

    I would think even a 163 IQ type might be able to figure that one out. 
Especially if he had read everything which was posted.  Something he tells
everyone else to do but does not do himself, it would seem. 


>>Lord knows who the Giwer-troll was talking to.
>
>	And you never went to my website to find out?  It is not as
>though it is secret or anything.  How could you avoid knowing?
>
>	But then how could you have known the discussion between the
>companies without being a party to one of the companies?

    Superior intelligence.  Something a mere 163 IQ type cannot imagine.

    You would however think that even a mere 163 IQ type might figure out
that he should ask parties to the companies if they might have said
anything to outside parties in the recent past, before going off
half-cocked with libelous statements. 


>	And your "uncanny" prediction is preserved on Nizkor for all
>eternity.

    It was merely superior intelligence.

    It might be said that you are very, very foolish.  But let it never be
said that you are ungenerous. Your offer to make a large contribution to
Mr. McFee's retirement fund is quite touching.

    Have a really, really tortable day. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu May  9 07:10:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35481 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Fugitive evades international manhunt
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 8 May 1996 20:13:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4mrdap$lj3@access4.digex.net>
References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <4mp79n$ebs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19383 alt.discrimination:46597 alt.revisionism:35481 alt.skinheads:22271 can.politics:43414

    Followups to alt.revisionism.

In article <4mp79n$ebs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Lord Peter Whimsical  wrote:
[snip]

    And while the Giwer-troll flaps his keyboard, I note that the
felonious nose-honker is still at large.  What's taking so long to bring
the ruffian to book?  The villain was named publicly last week and no I
did not see an "alleged" in front of the name.  Nobody would be so stupid
as to do that unless the case was airtight, so why the delay? 

    Too bad Dorothy L. Sayers isn't around to chronicle Lord Peter's
exploits.  What would she call it - "Clouds of Witlessness?"
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu May  9 07:10:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: One question for the troll
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 8 May 1996 19:54:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4mrc7j$kef@access4.digex.net>
References: <30APR96.14178459.0017@IBM.UTM.EDU> <4mh9di$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4mkf27$e27@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:22288 alt.revisionism:35504

    Followups to alt.revisionism.

In article <4mkf27$e27@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	We have an attorney and a chemist who have both admitted to
>deception.  what more do you want?

    Evidence?


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu May  9 07:10:37 PDT 1996
Article: 35515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: 8 May 1996 20:27:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4mre5j$lut@access4.digex.net>
References: <3173ac60.4634571@news.pacificnet.net> <31794635.1667858@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4lv899$1kf@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <28APR199606411760@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <28APR199606411760@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
Daniel Mittleman  wrote:
>    Most of the material at Nizkor is simply an archive
>    of this newsgroup; and they have some software which captures and
>    catalogues what is said here automatically (or at least
>    semi-automatically).

    I don't know if it is "most," and it does not capture the whole group
automatically - only posters who are designated as being "of interest."
However, that list may be extended in the near future to cover all the
regular players.  I prefer looking for posts on DejaNews myself, but I
have made posts from Digex which made it to Nizkor but not DejaNews.  So I
would not mind the second chance archive. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu May  9 07:10:38 PDT 1996
Article: 35526 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 8 May 1996 21:49:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <4mrivo$ol4@access4.digex.net>
References: <4m05pr$p31@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4m1hj9$c3j@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4m1hj9$c3j@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Ceacaa  wrote:
>Mark Van   wrote  on Apr 18, 1996
>
>Ceacaa wrote: 
>>> Then can we assume that the "removable core" had the 
>>> biggest surface area and, therefore, probably went to the 
>>> floor?  TO BE BLUNT, HOW LONG WAS YOUR REMOVABLE CORE????
>
>
>>In addition, according to Pressac (_Anatomy_, p.232) on March 13, 1943,
>>1,492 Jews were killed in the gas chamber of Krema II. Six kilos of
>>Zyklon
>>B were used. That would be 1.5 kilos per introduction column, which is
>>exactly what largest size cannister of Zyklon B held. (_Anatomy_, p.209.)
>
>
>>Now, we have something to go on. Using our guestimated value of 1 g/cu
>>cm for Zyklon B, we see that it would require 1,500 cu cm of volume in
>>the core. As each linear cm of the core has a volume of 175 cu cm, that
>>would mean that it would imply a minimum core length of about 9 cm. In
>>other  words, not very much.
>    
>>So, to anwser your question, Ceacaa, less than 1 meter. Probably much
>>less. 
>
>  For persons just arriving on this thread, Mark Van Alstine is
>the first person to have tried to calculate something about the
>size of the "murder weapon", ie. the core which held the
>poisonous Zyclon and which was used to kill hundreds of thousands 
>of persons.  
>
>     In fact, according to Mark's  calculations, this core pillar was
>at least 9 cm. long.  That is, for you all in the United States, less than
>5 inches, about the lenght of a cigarette.      

    My interpretation when I read Pressac's textual description of the
core was a bit different.  My understanding was like this: think of a
common nail standing on its head.  From the nail-head, project a wire-mesh
cylinder up.  The shaft of the nail presses an elongated and thinner layer
of Zyklon against the wire mesh, which exposes more surface area to the
outside and increases the outgassing speed.  Of course this requires a
longer core because of the space occupied by the central shaft.

    Reread the description again and see what you think. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu May  9 07:10:38 PDT 1996
Article: 35533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What A Bunch of Winners (sarcasm)
Date: 8 May 1996 22:21:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <4mrkrg$pvv@access4.digex.net>
References: <4lemk0$gi2@tribune.concentric.net> <4m15sp$2ds@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4m92li$fts@access5.digex.net> <4mbobk$qfc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4mbobk$qfc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4m15sp$2ds@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:20:19 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>>>wrote:
>
>>>>[snip]
>
>>>>>	There is no evidence of mass extermination by gassing during the
>>>>>holocaust. Show me the bigotry in that statement.  
>
>>>>It's bigotry if you know better, ignorance if you don't.
>
>>>	It may be foolish, it may be dumb, but there is no bigotry in the
>>>statement.  You many consult any dictionary in whose list of
>>>defintions you find one you can twist into supporting your absurd
>>>claim.
>
>>    No twisting required.
>
>>big.ot.ry \'big-*-tre-\ n : the state of mind of a bigot; also : behavior
>>   or beliefs ensuing from such a state of mind
>
>>big.ot \'big-*t\ n [MF, hypocrite, bigot] : one obstinately or
>>intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion
>
>>Source:
>>   Linkname: Webster's Dictionary
>>        URL: http://civil.colorado.edu/htbin/dictionary?bigot
>
>
>>    You have been apprised of the letter from Bischoff to Kammler speaking
>>of a "Vergasungskeller."  You have been apprised of the orders for a
>>gas-tight door.  (You will have to take up the issue of why it said
>>"Gasdichtetur" rather than "Luftdichtetur" with the SS.)  You have been
>>apprised of the fact that evidence of cyanide was found in the Kremas by
>>both the later Polish chemists, and (though you've probably forgotten it)
>>was also mentioned as having been found on plates from the ventilation
>>system shortly after the war.  You have been apprised of witnesses - both
>>prisoners and SS men - who testified to gassing.  And that is just what
>>has been posted here.
>
>	Of the above only the traces of cyanide would be considered
>evidence as has been noted.

    Funny, I could have sworn the Giwer-troll had previously referred to
documents (like the Wannsee Protocol) as physical evidence.  And the
letter from Bischoff to Kammler was certainly a document.



>Killing rats in a morgue is certainly a desirable thing.

    Agreed.  And if someone brings me a rat corpse shown to have come from
Birkenau at that time and dead of cyanide, I'll take that as evidence that
it was done.  Or heck, even a measly eyewitness testimony that Zyklon was
used to gas rats in the morgue.  So far I have seen neither.  I _have_
seen testimony that Zyklon was used to gas _people_ in the morgue.

    Of course it would be nice to have an explanation of why they could
not simply put grates over the drains and keep the gastight door closed.
It was a morgue, with concrete floors, walls and ceiling as I recall.  The
rats were going to gnaw their way in?  What's wrong with rat poison,
traps, etc.?


>And on the other hand there are
>contrary evidences such as a steel door on one way out and wooden
>partitions (whatever those might be in detail) at another exit.
>What you have is far from conclusive.

    I did not intend the list to be conclusive.  I intended it to show
that "there is no evidence" is a false statement, so holding to it would
be bigoted.  And Mr. Giwer has now agreed that there is evidence.  We are
making progress.


>	There is not enough evidence to pass the "beyond a reasonable
>doubt" criteria for capital cases.

    That's what the Simpson jurors said.  Many other people disagreed with
them, too.


>>    I expect your problem is that you thought that "bigot" = "racist." 
>>But that's simply due to the paupacy of your skill in English.  You really
>>ought to learn the language sometime.
>
>	Rather it is clear that obstinate devotion to an opinion of
>gassing would also satisfy that definition.

    I await the argument as to how an alternative hypothesis better
explains the existing set of observations. 


>Belief in the absense of knowledge and believe contrary to physical law. 

    I believe in Mr. Giwer's absence of knowledge about many aspects of
the Holocaust.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu May  9 07:10:39 PDT 1996
Article: 35577 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor, You kick 'em, I'll gas 'em
Date: 8 May 1996 21:23:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <4mrhf5$nj5@access4.digex.net>
References: <4ldpjh$duc@Vir.com> <4m3bfc$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mijj8$o9s@access1.digex.net> <4mmckq$int@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4mmckq$int@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>	Perhaps you will explain the construction of the roof that is a
>feature of either a morgue or a gas chamber?

    A chute built into the roof to slide a body down into the room is
certainly not consistent with a gas chamber, but it is consistent with a
morgue.  Eliminating the chute makes it harder to use as a morgue but
easier to use as a gas chamber.


>Will you explain the features is has in common with a bomb shelter?

    I would certainly expect a bomb shelter and a morgue both to have a
roof.

    My psychic powers tell me the Giwer-troll was about to say something
about the reinforced concrete roof construction and how they probably
eliminated the chutes to make the rooms usable as bomb shelters.  My
psychic powers also tell me that the Giwer-troll will not produce the
design documents which show that before the elimination of the chutes, the
roof was planned with something other than reinforced concrete
construction.  If he did, _then_ he might have some support for what is
currently his "it could have been"  speculation.  Or just one letter
documenting this design change to permit a dual use.  Or just one
eyewitness testimony that such a change was made, that such a
consideration entered into the design.

    Oh, that's right.  The Russians eliminated all trace of this evidence
>from  an archive they never even bothered to use or, as far as anyone can
tell, look at.  Just like you-know-who eliminated all evidence of creating
the earth in six days.


>	But your last sentence is quite interesting as I was informed
>just a couple days ago that they were at some point labled
>Vergasungskeller.

    But of course the Giwer-troll can never produce any quotes to back up
its claims about what was said.  I do not recall any claim that the
_drawings_ were labeled Vergasungskeller.  Only what I have said, that the
term was used in a _letter_.

    My psychic powers tell me the Giwer-troll will give the same tired
refrain about how it's somewhere on Nizkor.  Followed, of course, by an
admonition to everyone else who makes a claim that the one who makes the
claim bears the burden of proof. 


>	Perhaps this letter is referring to some other structure as it
>has no apparent connection to this structure.

    The Giwer-troll has been asking about all the ashes that should be in
the pits (which they should, if they weren't cleaned out, just like
Kennedy's corpse should be in Dallas if he was killed there and not taken
somewhere else).  Yet he suggests that the letter refers to some other
structure without any evidence that such a structure exists.  A cellar
should be pretty easy to find.  The fine fellows at the IHR have been
trying to find it for some time without much success.  But then, the
Giwer-troll also tells us there were probably steps going down from a
ground-level platform in a photo he couldn't be bothered to look at.

    Where is the magic vanishing separate cellar?  Probably the same place
the magic mutating "Internet Direct" post went.

    Or maybe the Russians eliminated every trace of it, the way
you-know-who eliminated the evidence of creating the earth in six days.

    At least with the ashes in the pits, there are some eyewitness
testimonies to seeing the cleanout, as opposed to the Russian
cellar-concealers and the creation matter.


>	And then there was the go around on Gaswagen meaning
>Vergasungswagen.  

    And I have already said calling it a gas van doesn't change its
function.  No doubt the Giwer-troll would have us believe the gas chamber
in San Quentin is for the storage of gas.  No homicidal _gassing_ takes
place there.  But of course the Giwer-troll would never try to evade the
issue by arguing over words rather than the reality of the issue. 

    Nobody here but us sober serious and honest scientists, yes sir. 

    And meanwhile the criminal nose-honker continues to drink Guiness and
laugh at Inspector Givert.  I cannot understand what's taking him so long
to bring the rogue to justice.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu May  9 21:14:48 PDT 1996
Article: 35481 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Fugitive evades international manhunt
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 8 May 1996 20:13:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4mrdap$lj3@access4.digex.net>
References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <4mp79n$ebs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:19383 alt.discrimination:46597 alt.revisionism:35481 alt.skinheads:22271 can.politics:43414

    Followups to alt.revisionism.

In article <4mp79n$ebs@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Lord Peter Whimsical  wrote:
[snip]

    And while the Giwer-troll flaps his keyboard, I note that the
felonious nose-honker is still at large.  What's taking so long to bring
the ruffian to book?  The villain was named publicly last week and no I
did not see an "alleged" in front of the name.  Nobody would be so stupid
as to do that unless the case was airtight, so why the delay? 

    Too bad Dorothy L. Sayers isn't around to chronicle Lord Peter's
exploits.  What would she call it - "Clouds of Witlessness?"
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu May  9 21:14:50 PDT 1996
Article: 35504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: One question for the troll
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 8 May 1996 19:54:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4mrc7j$kef@access4.digex.net>
References: <30APR96.14178459.0017@IBM.UTM.EDU> <4mh9di$s1t@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4mkf27$e27@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:22288 alt.revisionism:35504

    Followups to alt.revisionism.

In article <4mkf27$e27@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	We have an attorney and a chemist who have both admitted to
>deception.  what more do you want?

    Evidence?


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu May  9 21:14:51 PDT 1996
Article: 35634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer searching
Date: 9 May 1996 08:20:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4msnu9$6dd@access1.digex.net>
References: <4lruaf$iri@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4lsb8j$nks@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4mm0se$2af@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4mm0se$2af@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote [to DvdThomas]:
>>What do you think of the revisionist Mattogno, who claims [...]

>	Who made that claim?

    I see the 163 IQ type is as sharp as ever.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri May 10 11:23:37 PDT 1996
Article: 72307 of talk.politics.mideast
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!uaem!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine
Subject: Re: ANY JEWS CONDEMNING ISRAEL?
Date: 10 May 1996 00:56:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4muia6$qpt@access1.digex.net>
References:  <4mm1ob$571@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.mideast:72307 soc.culture.israel:32998 soc.culture.palestine:15964

In article <4mm1ob$571@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
RayHanania  wrote:
>   Where are the Jewish people who said they live by one standard ...
>where are their voices now that today's reports show the site was attacked
> intentionally and that they were aware the site was filled with innocent
>civilians.

    I don't see conclusive evidence that Israel shelled Qana deliberately
in the sense that they were actively trying to hit the refugees - the UN
reasoning about the fusing on the shells doesn't strike me as compelling
as it seems to me that would be just as desirable for trying to eliminate
the Katyusha launcher or at least its personnel.  I do warn that I am not
a military expert by any stretch of the imagination.

    However, that hardly matters.  I have posted publicly in another
thread that it is quite clear that Israel knew that shelling that close
was dangerous (because it previously had a 500-yard safety radius around
UN outposts)  and deliberately decided to expose the people in the area to
a risk I am quite sure they would not have taken had the area been
inhabited by a similar population of Israelis.  This means they consider
the lives of Lebanese noncombatants cheaper than Iraeli lives, and this I
find morally unacceptable.  I sent a telegram of protest to the Israeli
embassy back when Israel first invaded Lebanon over a decade ago, and for
much the same reason.  The only response was a standard PR packet. 

    Posted w/email copy to Mr. Hanania.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri May 10 12:34:46 PDT 1996
Article: 35863 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gas Chambers, Air Raid Shelters & Air-Tight Doors
Date: 10 May 1996 07:41:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4mva1i$5o6@access1.digex.net>
References: <4lre66$7j4@panix2.panix.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:
>
>> Hence, I will assume that we've 
>> found at least a few air raid shelters with these air-tight doors.  If 
>> you can provide some examples of this practice, I would greatly 
>> appreciate it.
>
>Don't forget showerheads.  I'd like to see an example of an air-raid
>shelter with seventeen showerheads, please, Mr. Raven.
>
>Dare I say it...?
>
>"Show me or draw me an air-raid shelter with..."
>
>Naw.  Never mind.

    Well, you know, people in air-raid shelters are under a lot of stress,
and anti-perspirant was kind of hard to get during the war.  As for the
fact that no plumbing for showers can be found in the construction
diagrams, well....

    Psychic prediction: Mr. Giwer will suddenly decide that ad hominem is
not a logical fallacy and respond to your article with a juvenile example
of same.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri May 10 12:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 35872 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Demonstarting
Date: 10 May 1996 08:01:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4mvb69$69l@access1.digex.net>
References: <4kkiss$pfl@wi.combase.com> <4mjc5p$7d4@news.nyu.edu> <4mn8qn$8la@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Sara aka Perrrfect  wrote:
>In article <4mn8qn$8la@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>         Actually they were about plaster on brick.  And the others
>> demonstarted the plaster can not form blue.
> 
>Could someone please parse these sentences?
> 
>Beyond the fact that I don't know what "demonstarted" means,

    In Unix, a continually-running background process with no parent and
no controlling terminal is referred to as a demon or daemon.  I presume
"the plaster can not form blue" is some demon process on their machines
which they started.  "Demonstarting" is a post-hooch Giwerundean
construction similar to German compound words. 

    Ordinarily I would take it as a typo for "demonstrated" except that
this would make it a false statement.  And as we all know, the Giwer-troll
never lies, except in months with a vowel.


>I cannot for
>the life of me fathom what this Giwerese statement MEANS.  Specifically,
>I'm concerned about "the plaster can not form blue." What does this MEAN?

    It means that Giwer is a troll.  You really had to ask?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri May 10 12:34:47 PDT 1996
Article: 35930 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Giwer admits lying
Date: 10 May 1996 12:04:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4mvpeu$gh7@access1.digex.net>
References: <3178e1ef.245789@news.pacificnet.net> <4m09ep$v5h@news. <4m6oii$qku@news.nyu.edu> <4m90c5$hle@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:35930 alt.usenet.kooks:23636

In article <4m90c5$hle@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

[big snip]

>>: >What Mr. GIwer hasn't figured out is that no eyewitness is expected to 
>>: >have 100% accuracy.  That's not humanly possible, except perhaps in a 
>>: >Heinlein novel.  The question in the court is usually whether the wtiness 
>>: >is substantially accurate.  If the witnesses are so distorted as to call 
>>: >into question either their veracity or the capabilities, then there's a 
>>: >problem.  But often a witness who can't remember whatcolor socks a robber 
>>: >was wearing isn't then disqualified as a witness as to whether a suspect 
>>: >is indeed the man who grabbed her purse.
>
>>: 	The distortion of the witnesses own testimony to the point of
>>: incredibilility is exactly what I am talking about when I repeat
>>: the 'engine exhaust in 15-20 minutes' story that is sworn to by
>>: OBC here.  Yet most all of them are repleat with impossibilities
>>: like this and they are all accepted as true without the slightest
>>: skeptical response.
>
>>(SIgh) Pretend all you want, better scientists then you have already 
>>posted the "answer."
>
>	That the eyewitness was lying of course.  

    And there we have it.  The Giwer-troll rejects the possibility of
error; any false statement by an eyewitness must be a lie and no
alternative hypothesis can be entertained.

    Therefore the Giwer-troll must admit he lied about the UN Declaration
of Human Rights requiring a jury trial.  His attempt to claim it was a
mistake is another lie, as he has declared the immutable principle that a
witness making a false statement is lying, never simply mistaken.

[another big snip]


>	Back in the early 70s we started setting up private boards with
>minimum age limits to get away from those who indulged in
>juvenile ridicule and such.  

    And the Giwer-troll has admitted to being kicked off a large number of
them, presumably for the juvenile ridicule he has engaged in here.  Not to
mention the lies and intellectual dishonesty.  I find it incredible that
he can believe he is fooling anyone at this point save for the already
deluded.  This really does look more like clinical mental illness than
rational tactical lying, as a reasonably intelligent liar using lies as a
means to an end would be careful not to be so bloody obvious about it. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat May 11 07:55:54 PDT 1996
Article: 36031 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nonprofits -- real, not Giwerese
Date: 10 May 1996 19:28:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4n0jes$bv4@access1.digex.net>
References: <4moe37$m98@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4mrgft$2a2@news.enter.net> <4ms9bm$1se@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4ms9bm$1se@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Dick Tracy  wrote:
[snip]

    And while the Great Defective worries about activities he admits he is
not sure violate any tax laws, the absolutely certain criminal whose name
has been previously announced continues to both thumb and honk his nose at
the law.  When will his reign of terror end?

    Why is this villain not in the slammer even as we speak?  Battery run
out in the two-way wrist TV?  Did the 163 IQ type not realize that he
should have bought Energizers? 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat May 11 07:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 36041 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Still no proof, or too much....
Date: 5 May 1996 08:36:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4mi7bv$4nq@access1.digex.net>
References: <4l3uno$q77@news.nyu.edu> <4lon4g$qi4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4luqfr$c8t@access5.digex.net> <4m3e73$mh7@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4m3e73$mh7@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>    In that case I can't figure out why Mr. Giwer is having such trouble
>>producing the quote.  He made the claim, therefore it is his duty to
>>provide the physical evidence.  Yet all he provides is his eyewitness
>>testimony, which by his own admission is absolutely worthless.
>
>	It is also the rule here to refer people to the Nizkor files.

    It is also the rule to give the URL to the specific file.  But even
that will be worthless if a lying troll without reading comprehension
claims that the file says something it does not, which is why a quote is
needed.

    A person making a claim bears the burden of proof.  A lying troll
making a claim bears at least the same burden of proof, and possibly a
higher one.

    I will note in passing that reading comprehension often suffers under
a bourbon of high proof. 


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon May 13 08:55:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49715 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan
Supersedes: <4n5hkk$i19@access4.digex.net>
Date: 12 May 1996 16:33:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 306
Message-ID: <4n5huv$i3v@access4.digex.net>
References: <4krjsq$ca1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4mdg9u$i23@access5.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.jewish:49715 soc.culture.israel:33349 talk.politics.mideast:72474

In article , Jake Livni  wrote:
>In article <4mdg9u$i23@access5.digex.net>,
>Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>>In article , Jake Livni  wrote:
>
>
>>>Israel was most definitely NOT "spray[ing] an Uzi into a crowd".
>>>It was responding directly to a Katyusha launcher.  This launcher
>>>had just been moved by it's Hezbulla operators next to a UN camp.
>>
>>    In other words, next to a crowd.
>
>Right.  Hezbulla defined the battlefield on both sides of the border.
>Who is to blame for that?

    Hizbullah.  It was immoral.  Unfortunately, that does not
automatically relieve Israel of any moral responsibility for what it does
in return. 


>>>Had Israel been guilty of what you are accusing it, entire villages
>>>would have been flattened with hundreds of thousands of casualties, 
>>
>>    If Israel had responded to _every_ incident as it did at Qana, you
>>mean.  According to what I have read, Israel suspended a policy of not
>>firing at positions within 500 yards of a UN camp.
>
>No, "spray[ing] an Uzi into a crowd".  
>Israel didn't do anything like this.
>They're not stupid, you know.

    If artillery has sniper-like precision, why was there a previous
policy of placing a 500-yard cushion around a UN position?


>>    But the fact that they did not do it as a matter of course does not
>>somehow make it OK to start doing it.
>
>They STILL haven't.  
>Your repeating it doesn't make it fact, either.

    They fired at a point they knew or should have known was within 500
yards of a UN position.  They had previously declared that unacceptable.
Was that stand-off distance just for political reasons?


>>>In NY City about 2 years ago, a couple of bank robbers took a hostage
>>>with them into the street and got into a gunfight with the police.
>>>The police shot the hostage, a young woman, dead.  A later investigation
>>>found that the police had acted properly and within their guidelines.
>>
>>    And if you had read further down in my previous post (but I realize
>>you probably responded here before you had come to that), you will see
>>that I agree that this is a different situation.  Each situation must be
>>evaluated on its own merits.  It sounds like the gunmen were threatening
>>more innocent people than the one hostage the police killed.  And that's
>>within my guidlines as well.
>
>I don't recall the circumstances precisely, but it was a gunfight in 
>the street with a hostage.  The NYPD were quite happy to let rioters
>have their way with the Jewish community of Crown Heights, Brooklyn
>for 3 days and nights.  An acquaintance of mine was murdered in that riot.

    This is a non-sequitur.  I think the police acted wrongly in the riot
case (or, to be precise, wrongly failed to act).  I keep saying that each
situation must be evaluated on its own merits. 

  
>In the UWS hostage case, though, they shot back quick smart.  And the 
>hostage was killed, too.  Why should this be different from the Lebanese
>case, where Hezbulla were firing rockets into Israeli towns (did you 
>see the blown up Israeli kindergartens in the NY Times?) while hiding
>behind their 'hostage' Lebanese civilians.  Why the double standards?

    I do not have a double standard.  I keep saying, and you keep failing
to understand, that the situation changes when there are as many hostages
around the gunmen within the expected radius of inaccuracy of police fire
than there are people threatened by the gunmen.  Included in that threat
calculation is the question of whether the gunmen are firing wildly
themselves, and whether they would not stop if the police withdrew, and
whether the police have a good chance of picking off the gunmen.  If the
answer is yes, then the gunmen themselves are already threatening the
lives of the hostages and they are in no worse a position if the police
open fire.  Do you finally begin to see what I am really saying? 


>>>Why should Americans apply more strict standards on how other govts manage 
>>>terrorism and warfare than we apply to our own police forces managing
>>>plain old everyday crime?
>>
>>    Please show me a situation where the police fired into a crowd of
>>hundreds of people to get at gunmen.
>
>But Israel did NOT "fire into a crowd of hundreds of people."  They fired
>directly at a Katyusha launcher.  And they missed.  By not much.  But that
>little difference made all the difference.  Is that so hard for you to 
>understand?

    I understand that weapons are not perfectly accurate.  And anyone
firing them should understand that too.  There are actually statistics
that weapons designers produce on error radius.  Now, I don't know what
they are for the artillery, but I do know that Israel had a 500-yard
cordon which it had previously imposed on the firing of artillery near UN
bases.  I would think it was safety-based, and that is the basis of my
criticism.  If you show me that I am wrong, I will re-evaluate my
position.


>>>Israel wasn't shooting blindly, as has been pointed out before.
>>
>>    Well, they were shooting at a spot, which as I understand it had been
>>vacated by the people they were trying to hit.  (Feel free to correct me
>>if I am wrong about this, but that's what the news report I read made it
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>sound like - that they were gone before the first Israeli shell was
>>fired.) 
>
>The news reports seem to be quite wrong.  Not the first time.

    Are you saying they were wrong, that the launcher was still in the
area when the first shell hit?  Your source?


>>>And not all well-aimed bullets hit their mark.
>>>Just like NYPD bullets.
>>
>>    However, experienced police should know how likely they are to hit
>>their mark, and how likely they are to hit an innocent bystander.  There
>>will be borderline situations, yes, but some are fairly clear.
>
>I hope you're not suggesting that Israel isn't exactly experienced
>in firing their weapons...

    I'm sure they are, and I'm sure they know that there are inaccuracies.
Which brings us back to the question of the previous policy of not firing
within 500 yards of a UN position.


>>    I believe that in responding to a threat, it is necessary to look at
>>the expected harm the bad guys will do to innocents (both immediate and
>>long-run) from ignoring the threat and compare it to the expected harm you
>>yourself will do to innocents if you _do_ respond.
>
>This is always the case.  Israel made this decision when it did nothing
>about the many Katyusha rockets before.  It finally decided to respond.
>
>
>>>>    Yes, it angers me too that the terrorists cynically use civilians as
>>>>shields.  However, I cannot allow that anger to override the recognition
>>>>that it is no more proper to mow down a crowd of Lebanese civilians to
>>>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>You are inventing scenarios that didn't happen.
>>
>>    Nobody died at Qana?  Or you don't consider the number who died high
>>enough to constitute a crowd?  Or they weren't Lebanese, or weren't
>>civilians?
>
>None of the above.  Israel didn't "mow down a crowd".
>I was quite explicit in my previous posting.
>Did you fail to notice?

    I think you do not understand what I am saying, then.  (See below.)


>>>Israelis have used overwhelming force on terrorists before.
>>>And Israelis sometimes get hurt and killed by their own bullets.
>>
>>    Both true.  But have Israelis used overwhelming force on terrorists
>>before when more Israelis are put at risk by the overwhelming force than
>>are put at risk by the terrorists?  That is the question.
>
>Frequently.  Tell me, what do you do with a bus full of passengers
>which has been hijacked by Palestinean suicide terrorists with armfuls
>of grenades?  Or when cars are hijacked by the same people?  Or at 
>any other time when terrorists are running through a crowd with an 
>axe, hacking people away?  Or with a hijacked airliner on the tarmac?
>Depending on the situation (and the speed required) someone shoots the 
>killer or a sniper takes aim at them when they are cornered.  Others 
>are endangered.  And sometimes killed.  Just like the NYPD in the USA.

    In the situations you described, the people surrounding the terrorists
are already being directly threatened by the terrorists, who are known for
committing mass murder for the hell of it.  Therefore the police action is
not changing the risk factor by much.  Furthermore, I don't think the
artillery fire can be compared to a sniper. 

    Change the grenades to knives.  Now, would the army fire a dozen Uzi
rounds - or even one - at a terrorist standing next to a passenger if they
could not get a sniper with a scope into position?  I don't think so.  THe
Uzi is not as accurate, and the knives are not as great a threat as a
grenade, which can take out many more people much more quickly.  So the
computation changes.

    It changes yet again if the people with the grenades are ordinary
robbers who are just trying to get away, and are not expected to kill
people just for the hell of it.


>The courts sided with the NYPD here.  Why hold Israel to a different 
>standard?

    I keep saying, and you keep ignoring, that the numbers and expected
harm calculations matter.  I am using exactly the same standard.  If you
don't like my standard, I'll listen to your arguments against it.  If you
think I have screwed up the calculations myself, I'll listen to your
arguments about that.  I've told you what I think and why.  If I am wrong,
it would not be the first time.  But don't accuse me of holding two
standards. I don't. 

    The rule, again, is to compare the expected risk to innocents from
withholding fire to the expected risk to innocents from returning fire. If
the number of statistically expected casualties among innocents is
significantly higher when firing than when failing to fire, then don't
fire.  If the reverse, then blast away.  I'm not saying this can be an
exact science!  You can get the numbers wrong, of course.  Mistakes
happen.  The 10,000-to-1 bad-luck chance comes to pass, on average, once
in ten thousand tries.  But then, we get back to the question of the
previous 500-yard cordon.  What was the expected incidence of a 300-yard
miss as reported in the Qana incident?  The 500-yard cordon makes it sound
to me not quite as great as 10,000-to-1. 



>>>The alternative, allowing the terrorists free reign, is unacceptable.
>>>Just as it's always been.
>>
>>    I think that there are some other options, however.  E.g., attack
>>helicopters that can see what they are shooting at (and chase it if it
>>moves, which the counterbattery radar could not).
>
>Easy for you to say.  And in any event, when Israel DID send in helicopters
>for a pinpoint strike (against Mussawi, blowing up his Mercedes limo), 
>Israel was criticized because he had a family member in his car, too.

    I was not one of the critics.  I accept that there are differences
between a police situation and a war situation.  Innocents will die in a
war.  Yet there are still laws of war and rules of proportionality -
which I think were respected in the Mussawi incident.


>Heck, when Israel (apparently) took out Yahya Ayyash with a booby-trapped
>cell phone, she was criticized by many.  You can't get more surgical than
>that.

    I was not one of the critics.


>Israel is used to double standards of judgement by the world community.
>To many, nothing Israel does seems to be satisfactory...
>
>
>>    I am certainly not saying that Israel deliberately targeted the
>>civilians who died.  
>
>What was that about "mowing down civilians"...?

    In my understanding of the language, there is no connotation of intent
in that phrase.  The way I use the term, you can accidentally mow down
civilians if you trip and your Uzi goes off, or if your foot slips off the
brake and onto the accelerator and you plow your car into a crowd.  I was
not trying to say what you think I was, but I do recognize that your
reading was within the bounds of reason.  I hope you will accept my
clarification. 


>>    You may disagree with the moral principle I am espousing, that a
>>country's armed forces should not subject foreign noncombatants to far
>>greater risks than they would be willing to expose their own citizens to
>>in order to achieve a given objective.
>
>1) you have ignored the facts on Israel's past exposure of it's own 
>   citizens in similar actions.

    I have not.  So far you have not cited anything I recognize as a
comparable situation. 


>2) you ignore the exposure of Israeli civilians by NOT ending the
>   rocket attacks from Hezbulla.

    I do not ignore it.  I question the methods chosen to try to end it. 

    How many rocket launchers have been taken out successfully by that
kind of counterfire?


>>    Or you may disagree with the level of risk that was involved in the
>>Qana shelling - you may say that the outcome was extreme bad luck.  I am
>>not an expert on artillery, so I could not tell you the probability that
>>such a 300-yard fatal error would occur. But the fact that Israel
>>previously had a policy of not shelling within 500 yards of a UN base
>>tells me that they were concerned about the risk.  The risk didn't change. 
>>They just decided it wasn't worth worrying about.
>
>Doubtless, you have the same criticism of U.S. friendly fire incidents...

    Each case has to be judged on its own merits.  Soldiers are inherently
at greater risk to start with.

    At the risk of sounding like a certain *****HARVARD*****-trained
megabrain who shall remain nameless, I think your knee is jerking a little
too much.  I don't think you really understand my position.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon May 13 11:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 72474 of talk.politics.mideast
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,alt.current-events,soc.culture.israel,ba.israelis,alt.security.terrorism,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israeli attack on Civilans -- US Planes in Jordan
Supersedes: <4n5hkk$i19@access4.digex.net>
Date: 12 May 1996 16:33:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 306
Message-ID: <4n5huv$i3v@access4.digex.net>
References: <4krjsq$ca1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>  <4mdg9u$i23@access5.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.jewish:49715 soc.culture.israel:33349 talk.politics.mideast:72474

In article , Jake Livni  wrote:
>In article <4mdg9u$i23@access5.digex.net>,
>Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>>In article , Jake Livni  wrote:
>
>
>>>Israel was most definitely NOT "spray[ing] an Uzi into a crowd".
>>>It was responding directly to a Katyusha launcher.  This launcher
>>>had just been moved by it's Hezbulla operators next to a UN camp.
>>
>>    In other words, next to a crowd.
>
>Right.  Hezbulla defined the battlefield on both sides of the border.
>Who is to blame for that?

    Hizbullah.  It was immoral.  Unfortunately, that does not
automatically relieve Israel of any moral responsibility for what it does
in return. 


>>>Had Israel been guilty of what you are accusing it, entire villages
>>>would have been flattened with hundreds of thousands of casualties, 
>>
>>    If Israel had responded to _every_ incident as it did at Qana, you
>>mean.  According to what I have read, Israel suspended a policy of not
>>firing at positions within 500 yards of a UN camp.
>
>No, "spray[ing] an Uzi into a crowd".  
>Israel didn't do anything like this.
>They're not stupid, you know.

    If artillery has sniper-like precision, why was there a previous
policy of placing a 500-yard cushion around a UN position?


>>    But the fact that they did not do it as a matter of course does not
>>somehow make it OK to start doing it.
>
>They STILL haven't.  
>Your repeating it doesn't make it fact, either.

    They fired at a point they knew or should have known was within 500
yards of a UN position.  They had previously declared that unacceptable.
Was that stand-off distance just for political reasons?


>>>In NY City about 2 years ago, a couple of bank robbers took a hostage
>>>with them into the street and got into a gunfight with the police.
>>>The police shot the hostage, a young woman, dead.  A later investigation
>>>found that the police had acted properly and within their guidelines.
>>
>>    And if you had read further down in my previous post (but I realize
>>you probably responded here before you had come to that), you will see
>>that I agree that this is a different situation.  Each situation must be
>>evaluated on its own merits.  It sounds like the gunmen were threatening
>>more innocent people than the one hostage the police killed.  And that's
>>within my guidlines as well.
>
>I don't recall the circumstances precisely, but it was a gunfight in 
>the street with a hostage.  The NYPD were quite happy to let rioters
>have their way with the Jewish community of Crown Heights, Brooklyn
>for 3 days and nights.  An acquaintance of mine was murdered in that riot.

    This is a non-sequitur.  I think the police acted wrongly in the riot
case (or, to be precise, wrongly failed to act).  I keep saying that each
situation must be evaluated on its own merits. 

  
>In the UWS hostage case, though, they shot back quick smart.  And the 
>hostage was killed, too.  Why should this be different from the Lebanese
>case, where Hezbulla were firing rockets into Israeli towns (did you 
>see the blown up Israeli kindergartens in the NY Times?) while hiding
>behind their 'hostage' Lebanese civilians.  Why the double standards?

    I do not have a double standard.  I keep saying, and you keep failing
to understand, that the situation changes when there are as many hostages
around the gunmen within the expected radius of inaccuracy of police fire
than there are people threatened by the gunmen.  Included in that threat
calculation is the question of whether the gunmen are firing wildly
themselves, and whether they would not stop if the police withdrew, and
whether the police have a good chance of picking off the gunmen.  If the
answer is yes, then the gunmen themselves are already threatening the
lives of the hostages and they are in no worse a position if the police
open fire.  Do you finally begin to see what I am really saying? 


>>>Why should Americans apply more strict standards on how other govts manage 
>>>terrorism and warfare than we apply to our own police forces managing
>>>plain old everyday crime?
>>
>>    Please show me a situation where the police fired into a crowd of
>>hundreds of people to get at gunmen.
>
>But Israel did NOT "fire into a crowd of hundreds of people."  They fired
>directly at a Katyusha launcher.  And they missed.  By not much.  But that
>little difference made all the difference.  Is that so hard for you to 
>understand?

    I understand that weapons are not perfectly accurate.  And anyone
firing them should understand that too.  There are actually statistics
that weapons designers produce on error radius.  Now, I don't know what
they are for the artillery, but I do know that Israel had a 500-yard
cordon which it had previously imposed on the firing of artillery near UN
bases.  I would think it was safety-based, and that is the basis of my
criticism.  If you show me that I am wrong, I will re-evaluate my
position.


>>>Israel wasn't shooting blindly, as has been pointed out before.
>>
>>    Well, they were shooting at a spot, which as I understand it had been
>>vacated by the people they were trying to hit.  (Feel free to correct me
>>if I am wrong about this, but that's what the news report I read made it
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>sound like - that they were gone before the first Israeli shell was
>>fired.) 
>
>The news reports seem to be quite wrong.  Not the first time.

    Are you saying they were wrong, that the launcher was still in the
area when the first shell hit?  Your source?


>>>And not all well-aimed bullets hit their mark.
>>>Just like NYPD bullets.
>>
>>    However, experienced police should know how likely they are to hit
>>their mark, and how likely they are to hit an innocent bystander.  There
>>will be borderline situations, yes, but some are fairly clear.
>
>I hope you're not suggesting that Israel isn't exactly experienced
>in firing their weapons...

    I'm sure they are, and I'm sure they know that there are inaccuracies.
Which brings us back to the question of the previous policy of not firing
within 500 yards of a UN position.


>>    I believe that in responding to a threat, it is necessary to look at
>>the expected harm the bad guys will do to innocents (both immediate and
>>long-run) from ignoring the threat and compare it to the expected harm you
>>yourself will do to innocents if you _do_ respond.
>
>This is always the case.  Israel made this decision when it did nothing
>about the many Katyusha rockets before.  It finally decided to respond.
>
>
>>>>    Yes, it angers me too that the terrorists cynically use civilians as
>>>>shields.  However, I cannot allow that anger to override the recognition
>>>>that it is no more proper to mow down a crowd of Lebanese civilians to
>>>                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>You are inventing scenarios that didn't happen.
>>
>>    Nobody died at Qana?  Or you don't consider the number who died high
>>enough to constitute a crowd?  Or they weren't Lebanese, or weren't
>>civilians?
>
>None of the above.  Israel didn't "mow down a crowd".
>I was quite explicit in my previous posting.
>Did you fail to notice?

    I think you do not understand what I am saying, then.  (See below.)


>>>Israelis have used overwhelming force on terrorists before.
>>>And Israelis sometimes get hurt and killed by their own bullets.
>>
>>    Both true.  But have Israelis used overwhelming force on terrorists
>>before when more Israelis are put at risk by the overwhelming force than
>>are put at risk by the terrorists?  That is the question.
>
>Frequently.  Tell me, what do you do with a bus full of passengers
>which has been hijacked by Palestinean suicide terrorists with armfuls
>of grenades?  Or when cars are hijacked by the same people?  Or at 
>any other time when terrorists are running through a crowd with an 
>axe, hacking people away?  Or with a hijacked airliner on the tarmac?
>Depending on the situation (and the speed required) someone shoots the 
>killer or a sniper takes aim at them when they are cornered.  Others 
>are endangered.  And sometimes killed.  Just like the NYPD in the USA.

    In the situations you described, the people surrounding the terrorists
are already being directly threatened by the terrorists, who are known for
committing mass murder for the hell of it.  Therefore the police action is
not changing the risk factor by much.  Furthermore, I don't think the
artillery fire can be compared to a sniper. 

    Change the grenades to knives.  Now, would the army fire a dozen Uzi
rounds - or even one - at a terrorist standing next to a passenger if they
could not get a sniper with a scope into position?  I don't think so.  THe
Uzi is not as accurate, and the knives are not as great a threat as a
grenade, which can take out many more people much more quickly.  So the
computation changes.

    It changes yet again if the people with the grenades are ordinary
robbers who are just trying to get away, and are not expected to kill
people just for the hell of it.


>The courts sided with the NYPD here.  Why hold Israel to a different 
>standard?

    I keep saying, and you keep ignoring, that the numbers and expected
harm calculations matter.  I am using exactly the same standard.  If you
don't like my standard, I'll listen to your arguments against it.  If you
think I have screwed up the calculations myself, I'll listen to your
arguments about that.  I've told you what I think and why.  If I am wrong,
it would not be the first time.  But don't accuse me of holding two
standards. I don't. 

    The rule, again, is to compare the expected risk to innocents from
withholding fire to the expected risk to innocents from returning fire. If
the number of statistically expected casualties among innocents is
significantly higher when firing than when failing to fire, then don't
fire.  If the reverse, then blast away.  I'm not saying this can be an
exact science!  You can get the numbers wrong, of course.  Mistakes
happen.  The 10,000-to-1 bad-luck chance comes to pass, on average, once
in ten thousand tries.  But then, we get back to the question of the
previous 500-yard cordon.  What was the expected incidence of a 300-yard
miss as reported in the Qana incident?  The 500-yard cordon makes it sound
to me not quite as great as 10,000-to-1. 



>>>The alternative, allowing the terrorists free reign, is unacceptable.
>>>Just as it's always been.
>>
>>    I think that there are some other options, however.  E.g., attack
>>helicopters that can see what they are shooting at (and chase it if it
>>moves, which the counterbattery radar could not).
>
>Easy for you to say.  And in any event, when Israel DID send in helicopters
>for a pinpoint strike (against Mussawi, blowing up his Mercedes limo), 
>Israel was criticized because he had a family member in his car, too.

    I was not one of the critics.  I accept that there are differences
between a police situation and a war situation.  Innocents will die in a
war.  Yet there are still laws of war and rules of proportionality -
which I think were respected in the Mussawi incident.


>Heck, when Israel (apparently) took out Yahya Ayyash with a booby-trapped
>cell phone, she was criticized by many.  You can't get more surgical than
>that.

    I was not one of the critics.


>Israel is used to double standards of judgement by the world community.
>To many, nothing Israel does seems to be satisfactory...
>
>
>>    I am certainly not saying that Israel deliberately targeted the
>>civilians who died.  
>
>What was that about "mowing down civilians"...?

    In my understanding of the language, there is no connotation of intent
in that phrase.  The way I use the term, you can accidentally mow down
civilians if you trip and your Uzi goes off, or if your foot slips off the
brake and onto the accelerator and you plow your car into a crowd.  I was
not trying to say what you think I was, but I do recognize that your
reading was within the bounds of reason.  I hope you will accept my
clarification. 


>>    You may disagree with the moral principle I am espousing, that a
>>country's armed forces should not subject foreign noncombatants to far
>>greater risks than they would be willing to expose their own citizens to
>>in order to achieve a given objective.
>
>1) you have ignored the facts on Israel's past exposure of it's own 
>   citizens in similar actions.

    I have not.  So far you have not cited anything I recognize as a
comparable situation. 


>2) you ignore the exposure of Israeli civilians by NOT ending the
>   rocket attacks from Hezbulla.

    I do not ignore it.  I question the methods chosen to try to end it. 

    How many rocket launchers have been taken out successfully by that
kind of counterfire?


>>    Or you may disagree with the level of risk that was involved in the
>>Qana shelling - you may say that the outcome was extreme bad luck.  I am
>>not an expert on artillery, so I could not tell you the probability that
>>such a 300-yard fatal error would occur. But the fact that Israel
>>previously had a policy of not shelling within 500 yards of a UN base
>>tells me that they were concerned about the risk.  The risk didn't change. 
>>They just decided it wasn't worth worrying about.
>
>Doubtless, you have the same criticism of U.S. friendly fire incidents...

    Each case has to be judged on its own merits.  Soldiers are inherently
at greater risk to start with.

    At the risk of sounding like a certain *****HARVARD*****-trained
megabrain who shall remain nameless, I think your knee is jerking a little
too much.  I don't think you really understand my position.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon May 13 13:56:28 PDT 1996
Article: 36698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: 13 May 1996 15:57:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4n846f$6df@access5.digex.net>
References: <30APR96.14178459.0017@IBM.UTM.EDU> <4mn5n5$b7k@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <8MAY199616570388@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mtd5i$932@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.skinheads:22964 alt.revisionism:36698

In article <4mtd5i$932@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:

[snip]

    If anyone is really interested in a real, factual discussion of the
issues, rather than having a troll-fest, please refer to the article I
posted in misc.taxes under the subject heading "Contributions made by a
501(c)(3) to another organization."  That, at least, is an appropriate
newsgroup.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu May 16 12:09:38 PDT 1996
Article: 36866 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: what is a troll?
Date: 14 May 1996 08:36:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4n9upb$d4f@access1.digex.net>
References: <831376208snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4mr1hi$f27@news.nyu.edu>  <4n3rf2$nsg@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4n3rf2$nsg@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>,
Richard Schultz  wrote:
>I see that you have fallen prey to another common mistake.  "Troll" is 
>in fact a personal name, and the correct punctuation is "Troll, the 
>ancient Ewell tied Carol," referring to the "natural foods" guru
>Ewell Gibbons.

    This is completely off-topic for this newsgroup.  If you really must
discuss Mr. Gibbons's private life in this manner, take it to
alt.sex.bondage. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu May 16 12:09:39 PDT 1996
Article: 36913 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: 14 May 1996 15:52:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4naoa2$lca@access5.digex.net>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <31948b7a.868529@news.pacificnet.net> <4n8avr$2fm@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <3198939c.900385@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3198939c.900385@news.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:

[snip]

>	This could be. Extraction form bituminous coal is a method of
>recovering HCN. It doesn't mean they could haven't just dedicated a
>oven to this purpose. All this activity also put the cyanide compound
>into the atmosphere to settle out over the earth which in an area like
>Poland - Europe would plenty sufficient to account for any miniscule
>traces found at Auschwitz.

    Oooh, I see we have a scientific jeenyus here to rival Matt Giwer.
How did those miniscule traces get into the basement room yet cannot be
found in the other buildings in Auschwitz?  Any theories, Mr. Scientist?

>	There are just to many other sources for HCN far better than
>fumigation pellets. 

    Give a list.  Go for it.  Be sure to explain how they are better.

    As little Tommy might put it, t s b h a.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu May 16 12:09:40 PDT 1996
Article: 36976 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!news.graphics.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer proves own stupidity
Date: 9 May 1996 18:00:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4mtptu$9rh@access1.digex.net>
References: <4mmqss$75p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4mp15o$9t9@news.enter.net> <4mrj38$2lh@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4mrj38$2lh@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Nick Danger, Third Eye  wrote:
>	However, it could not accept donations for a separate
>organization.  Each organization has to separately deal with the
>IRS.  The ultimate beneficiary of the donation is the only one
>that can give out the receipt for that donation.

    Can someone explain to me what the Giwer-troll is saying, exactly? 
Poor people on the street can give out tax receipts, or the Salvation Army
and others running soup kitchens for the ultimate benefit of those same
poor people are giving out illegal tax receipts?

    And while the Giwer-troll is expounding on his invincible ignorance of
tax law, both American and Canadian, the fiendish nose-honker remains at
large to terrorize innocent citizens.  Why the delay, Nick Danger? 
Mukluks still drying in the cellophane?  Or a bowl too many of Loosener's
Castor Oil Flakes? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu May 16 12:09:41 PDT 1996
Article: 37198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & His Phanthom Al Gentile
Date: 15 May 1996 17:12:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <4ndhbi$6ho@access5.digex.net>
References: <4l8u4i$ev@wave.rio.com> <319751AA.5FFC@gryn.org> <4ncm4p$p4u@hackber <3199EE9B.4198@gryn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3199EE9B.4198@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan   wrote:
>Mike Curtis wrote:
>> That and peeing on pictures of Roosevelt. That and never seeing gas
>> chambers. That and being a Righteous Gentile. That and claims on
>> numbers. What else was there. But who cares, he may have never been
>> there in the first place.
>
>So - you have a problem with his statement about peeing on a picture of
>Roosevelt? What part of that statement do you believe to be improbable?
>Why?
>
>Further, you have now claimed that he was claiming to be a Righteous
>Gentile. Can you back your claim up?

    I do not see Mr. Curtis claiming that Al Gentile personally claimed to
have been a Righeous Gentile; it was Matt Giwer who made such an assertion
without any documentation - if you want me to dig up the post where Mr. 
Giwer said this, I'll be happy to. Thus there are at least possibilities: 
a) it could be true;  b) Mr. Gentile could have lied about it; c) Giwer
could be lying about it (or misread/misremembered something and genuinely
believe Mr. Gentile claimed such a thing when in fact he did not).  My
money is on the parenthetical explanation in (c), to be quite candid.  Mr.
Giwer is not the world's best reader at the best of times, and Mr.
Gentile's last name is just begging for confusion on this point from
someone with as little attention to detail as Mr. Giwer.

    As for the rest, I am satisfied with Mr. Grynspan's clarification of
his position.  I too have been known to speak up to defend an opponent on
a specific factual point without having any intention of endorsing
everything else the person is saying.

    Posted and emailed to Mr. Grynspan and Mr. Curtis.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri May 17 14:33:06 PDT 1996
Article: 37574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: The Giwer-troll is still at it
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 17 May 1996 12:10:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4ni8ef$d2f@access5.digex.net>
References: <4muja0$1ng@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4n0oj2$9rk@news.enter.net> <4n3hv6$n3i@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:37574 alt.usenet.kooks:23965

In article <4n3hv6$n3i@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Officer Andrew J. Renko  wrote:
>	Why not simply cut to the chase, killfile challenged one.  Get
>whoever is in charge of the site on line to explain the
>relationship.  I mean the person the person who actually pays the
>bills so we can get an answer once and for all.

    A general discussion of the nature of such relationships under US law
has been posted in misc.taxes, where the question belongs.  If the
Giwer-troll really were interested in the answer, he could do his own
homework by contacting Revenue Canada to find out.

    But of course the Giwer-troll is not really interested in an answer,
nor in the truth.  He is a liar and a troll whose only real interest is in
provoking people.  He has frequently misrepresented what has been said in
this and other discussions.  Even when his own words are quoted back to
him, he accuses the poster of altering the quote - even when DejaNews
confirms the accuracy of the quote. 


>	What is Nizkor trying to hide?  Where is the full disclosure of
>its financial relationships with the synagogue?  It is the claim
>that there is no such relationship that makes this whole
>contribution deal look shady.
>
>	In case you have missed it
>
>Victoria, B.C.'s Congregation Emmanu-El has agreed to assist the
>Nizkor Project in
>accomplishing these objectives by accepting donations, for a
>period of time, and providing
>Canadian tax receipts for donors. 
>
>	The "director" participates here.  Why not encourage him to post
>what he has certainly fully disclosed to the Canadian government
>if in fact there has been an application for tax exempt status.

    The Giwer-troll is not really interested in this information.  He is
only interested in making cheap insinuations, goading and provoking and
trying to get Ken McVay to waste his time.  He should write Revenue Canada
if he is really concerned about this.

    By the way, the felonious telephone nose-honker is still at large. 
Officer Renko here unequivocally named the bad guy publicly weeks ago,
which nobody familiar with libel law would do unless he had absolute
proof.  Why is he wasting time going on about something he admits he does
not know is illegal (under US law it would not be), when a known
lawbreaker is on the loose?  He really ought to stop stuffing his fat face
with donuts and bag the perp.

    What could be the matter?  Someone steal his squad car again? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:53 PDT 1996
Article: 37892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: 18 May 1996 23:48:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <4nm5ms$5o8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4nlbi9$q3t@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4nlmje$ktu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4nlmje$ktu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>In article <4nlbi9$q3t@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>>	Holohuggers also substitute mantras for reason, pretend their
>>documentation is in fact documentation when it is mere repetition
>>of hearsay, and generally act like sanctimonious creationists
>>with as little regard for reason and honesty.
>>
>Yeah, and the Nizkor FAQ is not far removed from the Q & A that I used to
>get in catechism, if I may speak openly!  Nizkor Catechism .... hmmm
>
>I am going to come out on Matt's side THIS TIME, because the
>conventionalists are acting like True Believers with the constant
>repetition of the Nizkorite Creed as revealed by the Prophet McVay. 

    You came late to this dance.  I think you really should research the
matter a little more before coming to a conclusion.


>Reminds me of a bunch of kids trying to break a kid who is different by
>repeating the same silly rhyme.  Maybe they think that Matt will start to
>cry and go home.

    As Matt himself so often says, the audience is other people, not the
person whose post is being responded to.  One cannot have an honest
argument with someone who lies about what you said, lies about what he
himself said, never produces any documentation for his assertions (but
always demands documentation), rejects expert sources, etc.  That is
an utterly dishonest way of conducting oneself in a discussion.  And that
is the way Mr. Giwer has behaved.

    He has gone so far as to insinuate that I have deceptively edited his
words, even though the DejaNews archive proves the accuracy of my quote!



>Even though I think some his posts are junk, the man deserves to be heard,
>ESPECIALLY here.  I will watch his posts, too, and if I catch him screwing
>around I will say so, just to be fair.

    I've already caught him screwing around.  Many times.  How much
documented evidence would you like?


>And in return, his opposite
>numbers should try to answer his arguments without extended invective. 
>That means everybody, please?

    I will happily answer his arguments, should he ever make any honest
ones.  And Mr. Giwer is no slouch in the invective department.

    Let's take his bomb shelter theory.  Both I and others have already
pointed out flaws in it - e.g., if the gas-tight door (which Giwer
arbitrarily suggested could be "air-tight," though that was not the word
the SS used) could just as easily be a feature of a bomb shelter, and the
concrete roof was needlessly expensive for a morgue, why did the _larger_
morgue with the concrete roof have no air-tight door suitable for a bomb
shelter?  Why are there neither letters nor testimonies about such use for
either of the rooms?  To these I will add: if the corpse chutes were
eliminated to improve the usefulness as a bomb shelter, why were they not
added back into the design of the room which was _not_ made into a bomb
shelter, but (ostensibly)  just a morgue?  Giwer's theory does not address
these points. 

    If (as Giwer suggests) the destruction of the Kremas was to deny the
Russians the use of the bomb shelters, why was the acknowledged Krema I
bomb shelter _not_ destroyed?  When this inconsistency was raised, Giwer
innocently said he thought that it had been destroyed since its current
state at the Auschwitz Museum is referred to as a reconstruction.  Either
he is being disingenuous, or he is too ignorant to be discussing these
matters intelligently.

    But of course he calls everyone else ignorant, stupid, illiterate,
etc.  (That last is pretty funny considering that when challenged to
produce documentation of his claims of testimonies where the screaming
went on for "tens of minutes," he produced one where the witness said,
"After a few minutes there was silence."  The witness did mention fifteen
minutes, but in connection with the time until the chamber was reopened,
not the time the screaming lasted.) 

    Let's take his arguments that the survivor witnesses lied for a number
of understandable reasons.  Though he claims to be a scientist, his
"theory"  is scientifically dishonest: it does not even attempt to address
all the observations.  Specifically, he makes no mention at all of the
corroborating testimonies of SS members.

    Now, Staeglich simply claims they were all tortured or intimidated.
But that theory does not explain

    a) why there have been no deathbed recantations of coerced confessions

    b) why people like Muench, Boeck, Rauff, and Suchomel reaffirmed
       their testimony under circumstances which appear to have been
       completely voluntary


    I could go on and on, but the point is this: despite Mr. Giwer's
accusations, my calling him a liar has nothing to do with his position on
the Holocaust.  It has only to do with his deliberately saying things he
knows or has good reason to know are not true.  My calling him
intellectually dishonest has nothing to do with his position on the
Holocaust.  It has only to do with his ducking challenges to provide
supporting documentation while demanding (and then frequently rejecting
arbitrarily) documentation from others, distorting the words of others,
etc.  And these he does with great frequency.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:54 PDT 1996
Article: 37894 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Car 54, where are you?
Date: 18 May 1996 22:57:15 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4nm2mb$3j9@access5.digex.net>
References: <319D4B53.26B@compusmart.ab.ca> <319D1271.130A@rio.com> <4nlbbm$q3t@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4nlbbm$q3t@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Officer Muldoon  wrote:
>	It is good to see, that not only were you a camp liberator, a
>fighter pilot and a multi-engine pilot but now you spent some of
>your busy career in Europe proving people were war criminals.

    Speaking of proving people criminals, why have there been no arrests
in the international nose-honking case?  Our super-sleuth here named the
criminal weeks ago.  He claims to know where the bad guy works.  One would
think that an arrest would be a trivially simple matter. 

    Car 54, where are you?  Kruschev and Idlewild have both been defunct
for some time now.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:54 PDT 1996
Article: 38004 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: 20 May 1996 01:06:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <4noujv$79d@access4.digex.net>
References: <319b3474.3002804@news.pacificnet.net> <4nfhi8$joi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4nfhi8$joi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote [to Tom Moran]:
>In article <319b3474.3002804@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>As to your point.  You are quite right.  Common sense would dictate that a
>reduction in the A-B death tolls would lead to a reduction in overall
>numbers.  But you don't go far enough.  You should observe, by consulting
>your sources, that the calculus of victims by individual authors usually
>hinges on balancing out to six million, with the Einsatzgruppen taking up
>the numerical slack.

    Not just the Einsatzgruppen.  The key item is that the total of six
million was based on gross demographics (the postwar European Jewish
population compared to the prewar population, less emigration).  It was
not based on adding up deaths by site/cause.  Thus reductions in the death
toll from one particular cause simply mean that more died in a different
way - disease, death marches, etc.  (And, of course, the Einsatzgruppen.) 
Reductions at one site mean that more died elsewhere.  To reduce the death
toll overall it would be necessary to show that the demographic figures
used to generate the six million figure were wrong, or that there was
significant unrecorded emigration.  The "revisionists" _assert_ all this,
but it almost always comes down to Because!  I!  Say!  So! 


>Your opposite posters, as well as the Wiesenthal Center and the Nizkor
>FAQ, seem either ignorant of this or unwilling to concede the point.  In
>the meantime, the two authors who -- in my day -- researched this topic
>seriously both arrived at figures of about 1 Mill or less for AB: Hilberg,
>who came out to cca. 5 million overall, and Reitlinger, who came out
>between 2 and 4 million.

    My understanding is that Reitlinger did disagree with the population
figures and used different ones than those used to arrive at the six
million figure.  Hilberg deliberately used an entirely different method;
he _did_ use many different sources to try to come to a minimum death
figure by adding up deaths from various sources.


>So, if it makes you feel better, you can say
>that 2 million died in the Holocaust and still be within the mainstream --
>although, you will still take heat.
>
>You may ask -- why don't we just say 2 million?  Answer:  because the
>people from Nizkor, and most conventionalists on the Holocaust are holding
>onto a memory.  They are afraid to openly consider upsetting the memory,
>for fear that they will lose it all.

    I can only speak for myself, but that's certainly not true at all for
me.  I am perfectly willing to listen to evidence for anything, but the
key word is _evidence_.  I think the A-B death toll _is_ currently
overstated.  The reason is that the A-B registration records were (quite
innocently) misinterpreted: when there was a record of registration on
such-and-such a day, with a notation "From the Hungarian Transport(s)," it
was assumed that the train(s) arrived _that same day_.  It turns out that
people _were_ held unregistered for long periods of time.  I was given
information by a child of survivors that his mother and aunt were held
unregistered for a few months at A-B, then transferred to a munitions
plant at Fallersleben.  And I posted that information, even though it
argued for a reduction in the A-B death toll.

    Surprise!  Those meticulous German record-keepers weren't quite as
meticulous as we thought.  The woman who found "The Auschwitz Album,"
likewise was registered long after she arrived.  Carlo Mattogno has
produced testimony from a Hungarian police officer that the number of
trains sent was only about 70.  In other words, fewer trains and a higher
survival rate. 


>That's why -- among other reasons --
>they don't trust revisionists.  I consider this symptomatic of a certain
>failure to yet digest this terrible event, coupled with an uncertainty as
>to the future.

    I consider this much more symptomatic of the fact that many
"revisionists" have been caught in blatant intellectual dishonesty -
selective and deceptive editing of quotations, lies by omission,
inconsistent standards, logically invalid arguments, etc.  This includes
Greg Raven, Mark Weber, Robert Faurisson, Carlos Porter, David Irving, and
Friedrich Berg (list not exhaustive). 

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:55 PDT 1996
Article: 38076 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Car 54, where are you?
Date: 20 May 1996 02:01:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4np1sb$7te@access4.digex.net>
References: <319D4B53.26B@compusmart.ab.ca> <4nlbbm$q3t@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4nm2mb$3j9@access5.digex.net> <4nmd1c$g5r@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4nmd1c$g5r@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Dudley Do-Right  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4nlbbm$q3t@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Officer Muldoon  wrote:
>>>	It is good to see, that not only were you a camp liberator, a
>>>fighter pilot and a multi-engine pilot but now you spent some of
>>>your busy career in Europe proving people were war criminals.
>
>>    Speaking of proving people criminals, why have there been no arrests
>>in the international nose-honking case?  Our super-sleuth here named the
>>criminal weeks ago.  He claims to know where the bad guy works.  One would
>>think that an arrest would be a trivially simple matter. 
>
>>    Car 54, where are you?  Kruschev and Idlewild have both been defunct
>>for some time now.
>
>	Hey, Mikey, he is on your side.  Post to him, not to me.  You are
>the one who will swallow anything.  

    He is not the one who made a public accusation of criminal behavior
against a living person currently posting in this group.  He is not the
one who claimed to have proof of where the person worked.  He is not the
one who has failed to cause an arrest in this matter several weeks after
the charges were made.

    Even a mere 163 IQ type should have been able to make an arrest by now
if in possession of the evidence and employment information previously
alleged here. What's the matter?  Inspector Fenwick take away your shiny
tin whistle? Or did Nell elope with your horse?

    Perhaps the synagogue will not need to assist Nizkor with its funding
very much longer.  Perhaps you will contribute generously instead.  But I
regret to inform you that your contributions will not be tax-deductible. 

    Wishing you a very tortable day,
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:56 PDT 1996
Article: 38128 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!news.imnet.ad.jp!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,news.admin.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Date: 20 May 1996 11:04:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4nq1ld$so3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4mp9vo$lrj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4n91rq$rgi@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4naabg$8b1@web.nmti.com> <4nbiuc$jah@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:51412 alt.revisionism:38128 news.admin.misc:45271 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:46037

In article <4nbiuc$jah@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>
>>In article <4n91rq$rgi@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>> peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>>> >In article <4n6463$3c3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>> >Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>> >> 	HTML does not permit looping.  The file does not contain
>>> >> meaningful information even in another charset.

    Since Mr. Giwer almost certainly does not have a Hebrew font on his
machine, and could not understand Hebrew even if he did, how would he
know?


>>> >Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK. Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK...
>
>>> >If that gets boring, write a 10 line shell script to telnet to their HTTP
>>> >port and send the SUBMIT packet.
>
>>> 	You missed going to the site first.  Requests are by email in
>>> plain english.  There is no form.  
>
>>Sorry, I mistook you for someone who knew what they were talking about.
>
>>If there is no form, why were you rattling on about HTML?
>
>	Demonstrating that those who were defending that it could be done
>that way were making up the defense of course.

    Oh, kind of like someone making up some nonsense about steps going
down from a train platform in pictures he never bothered to look at.  Had
he looked at the pictures he would have seen that the train platform was
at ground level.  Clearly that person was also making it up as he went. 
Isn't that right, Mr. Giwer?  (Alt.revisionism readers will know what I'm
talking about.) 

    I have figured out how Mr. Giwer was mailbombed.  It was not done
precisely as Mr. da Silva suggested, but it can be done with equivalent
ease.  I will not explain how publicly, as I do not wish to hand out yet
another loaded gun to any idiot reading my words.  Not that it takes a
great deal of intelligence to do what was done to Mr. Giwer, but I don't
want to make the technique even more readily available.  I note that even
with his self-proclaimed 163 IQ points and expertise on the Internet, Mr.
Giwer was not able to figure it out. 

    However, anyone who knows the method can use it to perform an
untraceable mailbombing.  (I have been told there are 400 users on a
certain Canadian ISP who might have some motive to mailbomb Mr. Giwer - 
or who might at least consider it only poetic justice.)

    No root access was needed.  The involvement of the government of
Israel need not have gone further than making an information service
publicly available for completely legitimate purposes.  However, as with
anonymous remailers it can also be misused, as it was in this case.  In my
mailbox is a similar file of apparent garbage, authentically mailed from
the same user ID and host, which I caused to be sent to myself.  It makes
perfect sense in Hebrew, however, and would be quite useful to someone
interested in Bar-Ilan University.

    Posted/emailed.  Followups changed to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:57 PDT 1996
Article: 38130 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: 20 May 1996 01:43:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4np0qg$7p4@access4.digex.net>
References: <316a7397.6836954@news.pacificnet.net> <4njbnm$j1p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4nn1o5$5fs@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4nogh4$8oh@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <4nogh4$8oh@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	You know as well as I do that your fellow chemist was playing a
>game in that the reaction was impossible by playing with the
>formal definition of the term "burn."  

    Let's review the bidding.

    It was Mr. Giwer who played that dishonest game, and is now lying
through his teeth and blaming Richard Green for it. The whole cause for
the discussion was cremation, and the question of whether bones burn.

    Now, the only reason to talk about that is to discuss whether bones in
cremation ovens are reduced to ash or not: burn in the colloquial sense
"burn up."  Mr. Giwer introduced the claim that calcium burns.

    The only reason to raise that issue is to support the idea that bones
can burn.  And, as previously stated, the only sensible reason to raise
that issue is to suggest that bones ought to reduce to ash ("burn _up_")
in a cremation oven (which, remember, was the original subject). 

    Rich Green pointed out that the calcium in bones is not elemental
calcium; Mr. Giwer's citation to the Merck Manual was irrelevant, because
it concerned elemental calcium.  (I have also posted an article about
cremation which says that bones do not burn down to unrecognizable ash;
they must be pulverized.  And Holocaust survivors also testified that
bones had to be crushed after cremation.)

    Mr. Giwer did then actually admit he was wrong, that bones do not
burn. (In the non-scientific sense "burn _up_.")  However, there are
compounds in bones that do burn, in the sense used by scientists.  Just
not the calcium.  Therefore the bones do not burn down to unrecognizable
ash.  Chunks and whole bones remain.

    It is now Mr. Giwer who is dishonestly pretending the original topic
was whether bones burn in the scientific sense.  I guess he thinks if he
repeats his lie often enough it will become true.  (Another charge he
makes against other people.)  However, DejaNews has a long memory.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:57 PDT 1996
Article: 38154 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: 20 May 1996 13:32:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4nqab6$75a@access5.digex.net>
References: <4nj9gr$bm6@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <319DAC96.6158@rio.com>  <4nofil$813@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4nofil$813@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> [...] And the saddest thing is that Giwer is
>>no teenage punk; he's 50 years old. 
>
>	51 next month.  But do not forget retired, youngster.

    Why should anyone bother to remember a claim that could be made by
anyone on a psychiatric disability pension?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:58 PDT 1996
Article: 38679 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: 22 May 1996 18:58:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4o067h$mp0@access5.digex.net>
References: <4n7sfr$rsg@web.nmti.com> <570_9605162245@tor250.org> <4nj369$8q1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4nj369$8q1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>>You're assuming that Matt actually understands the net. From the
>>headers, it looks like the mail was coming from a gopher'bot, not a
>>web page at all!
>
>	Yes, Alec, I do understand it.  And my son maintains an ISP and a
>mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.

    Is this meant to imply that all three tried to figure out how it was
done and couldn't?  In that case remind me not to buy service from Combase
should I ever find myself in Tampa.  But maybe this is just a peculiar
notion that one becomes an expert just by knowing experts. 


>	When you get to that [site] you will find there is one way to get
>information, email, plain english, not automated.
>
>	That means that at best for the organization, their system was
>hacked and the bot set.  At worst for the organization it was a
>member of the organization with root access.
>
>	If you have another explanation I will be interested in reading
>it.

    If you had asked nicely I might have told you for free.  But since
you've been such an ass about it, I will merely ask: how much is the
information worth to you?  If you wish a demonstration to prove I know
what I'm talking about, that is still free.  But remember, if you ask for
the demonstration, it is no longer unsolicited email.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 22 23:42:59 PDT 1996
Article: 38685 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The shy, retiring Giwer-troll
Date: 22 May 1996 18:43:36 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4o05ao$mc9@access5.digex.net>
References: <4nj9gr$bm6@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4nofil$813@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4nqab6$75a@access5.digex.net> <4nqvfq$1k3@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4nqvfq$1k3@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4nofil$813@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	51 next month.  But do not forget retired, youngster.
>
>>    Why should anyone bother to remember a claim that could be made by
>>anyone on a psychiatric disability pension?
>
>	Tired of trying to spread the drinking story and need another?
>Good try.  Lets see how many times you have to repeat it before
>others start taking it as true.  You must be Jewish to do such a
>think.

    I am quite curious to know why one must be Jewish to recognize that
there are many possible reasons for early retirement which reflect no
credit upon the retiree (such as the example I gave).  For this reason I
find the simple fact of early retirement not particularly noteworthy. 
Your mileage may vary, of course.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu May 23 00:14:40 PDT 1996
Article: 51412 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!news.imnet.ad.jp!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,news.admin.misc,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Date: 20 May 1996 11:04:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4nq1ld$so3@access5.digex.net>
References: <4mp9vo$lrj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4n91rq$rgi@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4naabg$8b1@web.nmti.com> <4nbiuc$jah@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:51412 alt.revisionism:38128 news.admin.misc:45271 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:46037

In article <4nbiuc$jah@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>
>>In article <4n91rq$rgi@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>> peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>>> >In article <4n6463$3c3@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>> >Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>> >> 	HTML does not permit looping.  The file does not contain
>>> >> meaningful information even in another charset.

    Since Mr. Giwer almost certainly does not have a Hebrew font on his
machine, and could not understand Hebrew even if he did, how would he
know?


>>> >Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK. Click on SUBMIT. Click on BACK...
>
>>> >If that gets boring, write a 10 line shell script to telnet to their HTTP
>>> >port and send the SUBMIT packet.
>
>>> 	You missed going to the site first.  Requests are by email in
>>> plain english.  There is no form.  
>
>>Sorry, I mistook you for someone who knew what they were talking about.
>
>>If there is no form, why were you rattling on about HTML?
>
>	Demonstrating that those who were defending that it could be done
>that way were making up the defense of course.

    Oh, kind of like someone making up some nonsense about steps going
down from a train platform in pictures he never bothered to look at.  Had
he looked at the pictures he would have seen that the train platform was
at ground level.  Clearly that person was also making it up as he went. 
Isn't that right, Mr. Giwer?  (Alt.revisionism readers will know what I'm
talking about.) 

    I have figured out how Mr. Giwer was mailbombed.  It was not done
precisely as Mr. da Silva suggested, but it can be done with equivalent
ease.  I will not explain how publicly, as I do not wish to hand out yet
another loaded gun to any idiot reading my words.  Not that it takes a
great deal of intelligence to do what was done to Mr. Giwer, but I don't
want to make the technique even more readily available.  I note that even
with his self-proclaimed 163 IQ points and expertise on the Internet, Mr.
Giwer was not able to figure it out. 

    However, anyone who knows the method can use it to perform an
untraceable mailbombing.  (I have been told there are 400 users on a
certain Canadian ISP who might have some motive to mailbomb Mr. Giwer - 
or who might at least consider it only poetic justice.)

    No root access was needed.  The involvement of the government of
Israel need not have gone further than making an information service
publicly available for completely legitimate purposes.  However, as with
anonymous remailers it can also be misused, as it was in this case.  In my
mailbox is a similar file of apparent garbage, authentically mailed from
the same user ID and host, which I caused to be sent to myself.  It makes
perfect sense in Hebrew, however, and would be quite useful to someone
interested in Bar-Ilan University.

    Posted/emailed.  Followups changed to news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri May 24 07:18:22 PDT 1996
Article: 38779 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer's eagle eye strikes again!
Date: 22 May 1996 21:27:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4o0euj$r4l@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4o097h$q2s@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4o097h$q2s@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>> From the interrogation of Adolf Eichmann
>>[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 221-222]
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>	Would it have been too hard for you to identify the person
>answering the questions and give the circumstances under which he
>was answering questions?

    Would it be too hard for you to learn to read and understand plain
English?  Please look carefully four lines above your own first sentence. 
To put it another way, carefully study the very first line of Dr. Keren's
text that you quoted.  Now, what part of "the interrogation of Adolf
Eichmann" don't you understand?

    At the very best, you need to consult an ophthalmologist as soon as
possible.  Have someone drive you or take a taxi. 

    Does anyone wish to bet that rather than admit he made yet another
stupid error (is anyone keeping score?), Mr. Giwer will accuse me of
editing the post?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri May 24 07:18:23 PDT 1996
Article: 38831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor:  Proof is for Goyim
Date: 23 May 1996 13:10:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4o2662$oh4@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4nj9gr$bm6@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4nt3tv$3kb@hackberry.zilker.net> <4ntm4i$b9m@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ntm4i$b9m@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>
>>>	Another imaginary Nazi made up the holohuggers.  
>
>>Prove that the work already done is false. Get to it Giwer, show the
>>folks in this newsgroup that you aren't a total waste of energy. Show
>>them that you really aren't a meddler. I dare challenge you to do
>>this.
>
>	Prove there was any work done in the first place.  This is the
>Gentile Rule in action.

    No, the Gentile Rule is only invoked when reasonable attempts to
verify a claim fail.  Matt Giwer said that Al Gentile was a Righteous
Gentile.  Attempts were made to verify that claim by checking sources
which, if the claim were true, should have been able to confirm it.  The
attempts to verify failed.  Thus the whole claim becomes suspect.  At that
point is is perfectly reasonable to go back to the original claimant (Matt
Giwer) and request more information.

    Also, since Matt Giwer is a known liar, his unverified statements are
treated with more skepticism. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon May 27 20:47:07 PDT 1996
Article: 39724 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Did the Ashes Go?
Date: 27 May 1996 22:19:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4odnrn$fpb@access4.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
frank forman  wrote:
>I know a gas chamber skeptic who wants to know how all the ashes of the 
>some millions of bodies gassed at Auschwitz were disposed of. Would 
>someone please go into the arguments back and forth here WITHOUT a single 
>ad hominem?

    The first thing to note is that the question contains a false premise: 
"millions" were not gassed at Auschwitz.  The first allegations were four
million (based in part on Hoess's initial testimony, which he later
admitted was based on hearsay and revised downward himself - he did not
keep track).  While the Communist government kept that figure alive until
recently, Western historians who made close studies of the death toll long
ago put it (from all causes, not just gassing) at somewhere from 1 to 1.5
million.  Reitlinger puts the toll lower, and Pressac has followed suit. 
I need to do some more research, but if the toll was based in part on the
registration records in 1944, I would definitely agree - contrary to what
Danuta Czech thought, people were not necessarily registered on the day
they arrived, so it appears there were both fewer transports from Hungary
_and_ a higher survival rate on those transports.

    Second, it must be kept in mind that the victims were not all adults.
The ones killed on arrival were those considered unfit for work: old
people, women, and young children.  This means less ash than if all
victims had been normal adults.

    As for the main part of the question, various witnesses say that some
ashes were dumped in the nearby Vistula and Sola rivers, while others were
used as fertilizer in nearby fields and scattered on roads.  Core samples
taken by the Auschwitz State Museum show ashes also within the boundaries
of the camp.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue May 28 06:58:53 PDT 1996
Article: 39790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: 27 May 1996 21:53:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 123
Message-ID: <4odm9v$evq@access4.digex.net>
References: <4n7sfr$rsg@web.nmti.com> <4nj369$8q1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4o067h$mp0@access5.digex.net> <4o0cgc$r8j@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:39790 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:18

In article <4o0cgc$r8j@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4nj369$8q1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>>>
>>>>You're assuming that Matt actually understands the net. From the
>>>>headers, it looks like the mail was coming from a gopher'bot, not a
>>>>web page at all!
>>>
>>>	Yes, Alec, I do understand it.  And my son maintains an ISP and a
>>>mutual friend of ours is the other person maintaining that ISP.
>
>>    Is this meant to imply that all three tried to figure out how it was
>>done and couldn't?  In that case remind me not to buy service from Combase
>>should I ever find myself in Tampa.  But maybe this is just a peculiar
>>notion that one becomes an expert just by knowing experts. 
>
>	You have not been to the site that runs the gopher to find out.

    What basis could this statement possibly have?  Obviously making it up
as you go.  I have been to the site.


>If you had you would have found that all requests are via email
>plain language requests.  You would have discovered more if you
>had actually examined the site.

    I have actually examined the site.  And I discovered many interesting
things about Bar-Ilan University.


>And until you give signs of having discovered those things,

    Would you like a demonstration of what I discovered?  Just ask.


>I will continue confidently in my conclusion that you are making it up.

    In that case, oh confident one, I'm sure you'll have no qualms in
accepting a wager that I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I am not
making it up; that anyone with access to a full range of standard Internet
services plus sufficient publicly-available knowledge could have caused
you or anyone else to receive that mailbomb without any password cracking,
email forging, IP address spoofing, etc.  I make no claims about the
repetition being completely automated, though I believe it would be
possible. 

    Is $100 too rich for your blood, early-retired one?  You get the money
if you win; Nizkor gets the money when you lose.  Assuming he agrees to
act as arbiter, since you have such a high regard for his knowledge of the
net, would you accept Alec Grynspan's word as to whether or not he agrees
that my method works? 

    How confident are you now, big mouth?


>	But then why not have a few copies of something shipped to this
>newsgroup to demonstrate your skills?  Would not want to waste
>the bandwidth?

    Dear me, did you lose the copy I forwarded to you?  Do you want
another sent to you directly?  I could make it in English this time, not
that you understand that language either.

    I believe I could actually get the site to post, though I cannot
absolutely guarantee it.  But even one copy would indeed be a waste of
bandwidth.  Not just because it would be off-topic, and not just because
nobody but you seems to be doubting my word.  The main reason it would be
a waste of bandwidth is because we both know that rather than admit that I
am right and you are wrong, you would merely accuse me of forging the
post, hacking the site, or getting a confederate in the Israeli government
to make the post.  You have been already been shown evidence and you have
rejected it.

    My money is on the table, gutless wonder.  Either put yours up or
admit that you lied about your confidence in your conclusion.


>	But as to the "expert" claim, I have made none.  I have said that
>I have participated in debugging the combase setup several times.
>My trouble shooting experience has cut literal hours off of the
>process.

    If that is true, think how many days could have been cut by someone
who actually knew what they were doing.  I notice that Alec is similarly
unimpressed by your claim.


>>>	If you have another explanation I will be interested in reading
>>>it.
>
>>    If you had asked nicely I might have told you for free.  But since
>>you've been such an ass about it, I will merely ask: how much is the
>>information worth to you?  If you wish a demonstration to prove I know
>>what I'm talking about, that is still free.  But remember, if you ask for
>>the demonstration, it is no longer unsolicited email.
>
>	I never expected you would ever tell anyone.

    That can be fixed.  Would you like me to tell Marduk?

    I have already explained why I would not post it publicly.  And
actually, I have already told someone else (not Marduk!) how it was done. 
If you accept the wager, I will have to tell the arbiter.  But I do not
expect a gutless wonder such as yourself to put his money where his big
mouth is.

    We both know you are the one making it up here.  I know what I am
talking about, you know that I know what I am talking about, and you are
lying in a rather transparent attept to goad me into telling you for free
how it was done.  Sorry, as a good libertarian you should understand the
concept of exchange for value.  And your failure to take the wager, after
declaring how confident you are in your conclusion, will be taken as an
admission that you are a liar.  Not that this has been a matter of any
doubt for weeks now, but the admission is always nice to have. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue May 28 20:19:02 PDT 1996
Article: 39886 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism
Date: 28 May 1996 17:33:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4ofreu$5a6@access5.digex.net>
References: <4o66b7$c7i@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4o6fn7$2tk@atlas.uniserve.com> <4oacf5$o0m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4ob8mt$2fs@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ob8mt$2fs@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Say OB (I can call you OB can't I?) as we left it last time,
>Nizkor was still await its tax exemption and Alec G. reported
>that tax receipts can only be given to tax free organizations and
>that the synagogue was still offering tax receipts for your
>non-tax exempt organization.
>
>	Do you have it straightened out yet?

    I posted a factual discussion of the issues in misc.taxes some time
ago, with a note posted here that I had done so.  The fact that you did
not choose to read and discuss that issue in the appropriate newsgroup
shows that you are just a troll who is not interested in facts, only in
causing arguments.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue May 28 20:19:03 PDT 1996
Article: 39889 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Critical Thinking (Re: My Letter to the New York Times)
Date: 28 May 1996 16:59:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4ofpet$2dp@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4o2ea9$hda@news.nyu.edu>  <4o3m67$ar7@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4o3m67$ar7@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mls@panix.com (Michael L. Siemon) wrote:
>>Bottom line (and this obviously applies, usually with full agreement
>>by the participants, to science) -- one *cannot* make any kind of
>>cogent critique of something one does *not* understand.
>>-- 
>>Michael L. Siemon         "In so far as people think they can see the
>>mls@panix.com              limits of human understanding", they think
>>                           of course that they can see beyond these."
>>                                            -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
>

    So I guess Mr. Giwer now realizes that he cannot make any kind of
cogent critique of the orthodox history of Auschwitz.  He clearly doesn't
understand it, as shown by his complete ignorance of the numbering system,
locations, and architecture of the various Kremas, his theory about bomb
shelters which and the reason for the destruction of the Kremas which was
contradicted by the fact that the bomb shelter in Krema I was _not_
destroyed, etc.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 06:02:14 PDT 1996
Article: 39980 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nine out of ten dentists agree
Date: 28 May 1996 17:13:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4ofqa8$3a0@access5.digex.net>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4o2va1$rfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4o5ar2$sd8@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4o7ntr$6ae@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4o7ntr$6ae@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	Take your off topic crap to another conference.  There should be
>a Mr. Wizard related group some place where you can disolve teeth
>in coke.

    Sufficient quantities of phosphoric acid and sugar will certainly
dissolve teeth.  The appropriate group would be sci.med.dentistry.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 09:56:52 PDT 1996
Article: 40004 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: 28 May 1996 17:23:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4ofqtd$4dd@access5.digex.net>
References: <31a8664c.468949@news.pacificnet.net> <26MAY199613082034@cmi.arizona.edu> <4obevv$o2g@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4obevv$o2g@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>	On the other hand, as the Nizkorites have so often asserted for
>the other side, failure to respond means they have no answer.

    Excuse me good sir, but are you saying that Tom Moran cannot
adequately speak for himself? 

    Oh.  Right.  Sorry.  Never mind.


>	Using personal opinion for avoidance of debate is a rather
>circular justification for the avoidance.  

    Using implicit claims of personal expertise in about twenty different
subjects (at last count) is a rather circular justification for the
avoidance of presentation of evidence and the rejection of the statements
of acknowledged experts in, e.g., cremation.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 12:46:13 PDT 1996
Article: 40049 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: 29 May 1996 11:57:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4ohs4h$929@access5.digex.net>
References: <26MAY199612551595@cmi.arizona.edu> <4ogesb$aev@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4oguk1$2cj@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4oguk1$2cj@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>>It is customary to bandy about a figure of 12 million victims of Nazism. 
>>I would like to know the derivation of this figure, and I would like to
>>know how it is allocated.  Of course, I am assuming that 6 million refers
>>to the Jewish Holocaust.
>
>	Both were invented.

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!

    The number of Jewish victims was computed by comparison of the prewar
Jewish population of Europe with those who could be accounted for after
the war.

    The non-Jewish victims include Gypsies, homosexuals, political
prisoners, and (the largest group) Soviet prisoners killed through both
active execution and deliberate mistreatment for political reasons.  One
could, I suppose, quibble over such things as whether the Stalingrad
prisoner deaths were avoidable, given the brutality of the conditions
under which the battle was fought. 


>	The interesting point is that the more the holocaust is
>judeaified the less room there is for anyone else.  The more all
>the camps become Jews Only the less room for anyone else.

    But Jews were disproportionately represented in the camps.  The other
group picked on for racial reasons, Gypsies, was not as large and
prominent.


>	Of course if the published camp numbers are everyone then the
>Jewish numbers are reduced by more than half.  

    But of course the published camp numbers are not everyone.  The
Einsatzgruppen, for example, reported killing about a million people in
the field in the occupied Soviet Union.  So I do not understand why the
Giwer-troll is bringing up this irrelevant observation, unless of course
it is simply more trolling.


>	It is a very strange corner these "historians" are painting
>themselves into.  Of course, the make a living selling books.

    Since the Giwer-troll does not understand the history (or the English
language) he does not realize that he is the one painting himself into a
strange corner.  At least he has admitted he does not earn a living.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 14:23:41 PDT 1996
Article: 40063 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Consequences
Supersedes: <4oi08k$coh@access5.digex.net>
Date: 29 May 1996 13:10:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 211
Message-ID: <4oi0ei$ctb@access5.digex.net>
References: <4o8e2m$bd8@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <26MAY199606224998@cmi.arizona.edu> <4oamv6$n5n@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

[Note: there is much in the quoted article I did not bother to address and
cut without ellipses marking each individual place.]

In article <4oamv6$n5n@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>
>>In article <4o8e2m$bd8@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>	Let us take two extreme cases regarding searching for a credible
>>>truth regarding the holocaust.
>
>>    There are problems with both extremes presented:
>
>>>1)	After a critical analysis everything the Gang of Seven
>>>supports is conceded to be true.
>
>>    The problem here is that if Giwer polled his "gang of seven" he would
>>    find that all seven of them support continued research into the
>>    Holocaust and are willing to accept whatever evidence real historical
>>    investigation turns up.  If fact, I suspect that none of the seven
>>    would say that what we know today is the complete truth and that all
>>    seven would say that real historians will push closer to the real truth
>>    as time goes on.
>
>	Your expections hardly consitute problems.

    The interesting thing is that the "revisionists" continually claim
that _their_ expectations _do_ constitute problems.  Take for example the
Giwer-troll's comments about the lack of description of defecation in some
eyewitness accounts of gassing victims.  He has insinuated that this is a
problem for the testimony.  Perhaps Giwer would have made a point of
mentioning such things had he been there.  But he fails to take into
consideration that either the witness or the editor may have considered
such matters disgusting and simply omitted the descriptions from
prudishness.  For this reason, the lack of such descriptions cannot be
taken as any kind of strong evidence that the testimony is faked.

    Although to be frank, it has occurred to me that the witnesses at
Auschwitz may not have seen such things.  Remember, those gassed on
arrival from Hungary had been on a very long trip locked in cattle cars
without food and water.  Therefore I would expect that quite a few of the
victims would therefore have wet and/or soiled themselves during the trip
and so not have had anything left to eliminate by the time they entered
the gas chambers.  Yet I do not recall seeing any such descriptions.  Is
this therefore a problem for the story that _anyone_ was shipped to
Auschwitz-Birkenau in cattle cars?



>>>2)	The stories of mass extermination of undocumented people are
>>>found to be false.
>
>>    If that is what real historical research uncovers, then fine.  Given
>>    the research done to date, that is a very unlikely future finding.
>
>	So far as I am aware (great straight line for you folks there)
>the current research has been in supporting a preconceived
>conclusion, that the camp rumors were true.  
>
>	For example they apparently did realize the Krema capacity was
>inadequate for the number of people they wanted to process so
>they dug up the multiple bodies story.

    Of course "revisionists" have long pretended that a body is a body is
a body, but since a normal cremation oven must be designed to deal with a
person at the large end of normal - there is indeed no problem in putting
two 60-kg women or three 40-kg children into the space which must be able
to accept a 120-kg man.  The Giwer-troll once again claims psychic powers
in announcing the reason for the testimonies.


>Unfortunately they did
>not realize that made the problem with the capacity worse not
>better.

    How so?  When it comes to theoretical limits, cremation capacity is
best expressed in mass per hour, not bodies per hour.


>But then they let the explanation advance to
>unquestionable dogma.

    Perhaps I should repost the cremation article I excerpted from the
local free weekly paper, plus the comments made to me over the phone by
the designer of the oven used by the crematorium featured in the article. 
According to the designer, the rate claimed was indeed not achievable for
complete cremation of a full-sized adult body and I do not question that. 



>>    Given the historical research done to date, real historians have
>>    discounted the possibility that millions of people lived but were
>>    simply missing.  
>
>	Excuse me, sir, but the last time I came across the number the
>total for all the civilians who disappeared without a trace
>during that war was 32 million.  That is not to say they were
>dead or alive after the war, simply that their fate is unknown.
>
>	You can certainly include civilians being caught in the
>crossfire, winding up in another country and taking a local
>sounding name, and consider those who escaped to Siberia, a great
>place to survive, right?  How many might have disappeared right
>into Stalin's Gulags?  In the 30s about half a million foreigners
>disappeared into them along with a quarter million who were
>summarily executed.

    The Giwer-troll complains long and load about how there is no physical
evidence for gas chambers (ignoring the cyanide traces found in them, the
Bischoff to Kammler letter mentioning a Vergasungskeller, the physical
equipment consistent with gas chambers, the inventory sheet with
showerheads and "wire-mesh introduction devices" consistent with neither a
morgue nor an air-raid shelter, nor, in the case of the showerheads,
consistent with the architectural drawings of the plumbing service to the
room).  Yet here he proposes an alternative theory with, so far as I can
tell, even less physical evidence. 


>	It is unclear how anyone, historian or not, could isolate 12 out
>of these 32 million and establish an otherwise untraceable fate
>for them.  Obviously we can discount an actual person by person
>trace.  That does leave us with gross population statistics at
>best.

    Except that we can use statistical methods on some important subsets. 
There are railroad records of transports to all three of the Reinhard
camps (Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka) - the estimates are well over a
million.  Yet only a couple of hundred survivors have been found - in the
case of Belzec, where there was not a successful prisoner revolt, the
highest figure I have heard for survivors is _two_.

    Those camps could not hold the number of people sent to them for any
length of time.  The "revisionist" explanation is that they were transit
camps (with no convincing explanation of why it was necessary to change
trains, and no supporting records of such trains) or delousing
installations (again, no supporting evidence or explanation of why people
could not be deloused on arrival at their ultimate destination).

    So what were these camps for?  And why can so few people be found who
were sent to them?  Why would they have (at best) disappeared at a rate
10,000 times greater than Auschwitz?  Bad luck?  I look forward to seeing
Mr. Giwer apply his critical thinking skills to this problem. 



>>    There is nothing wrong with pursuing historical theses which run
>>    counter to the orthodox understandings of the Holocaust.  However,
>>    extraordinary theses require extraordinary evidence.  These crackpots
>>    do not even come close to building a real case.
>
>	It would then appear you do not consider the mass exterminations
>extraordinary or you do not realize it bears the burden of
>providing the extraordinary evidence.  The need to invoke gassing
>given camp conditions is truly extraordinary.  Or, of course,
>camp condition descriptions are in great need of revision.

    An alternative, more plausible theory of what happened at Treblinka,
Belzec, and Sobibor is eagerly awaited.  As for any "need" to invoke
gassing at Auschwitz, I fail to understand it.  Is the Giwer-troll
suggesting that the only reason someone mentioned gassing was because they
could not understand how so many could have died otherwise, not
recognizing that disease could have taken care of that many with no murder
required? 

    Of course our critical thinker could not be advancing that argument
seriously.  For that would still require the disposal of the bodies.  And
the Giwer-troll has argued that there are not enough ashes (apparently
declaring by his own great personal authority that the witnesses were
making up the stories about trucking the ashes to the river and other
places) and not enough cremation capacity (ignoring the stories about
open-air burning, which has some support from the air photo evidence -
Mattogno arbitrarily tries to explain it away as a trash fire - and I have
been told but have not yet confirmed that even Holocaust denier Thies
Christopherson admits to having seen some open-air corpse burning at
Auschwitz).

    Then again, in order to explain away the cyanide traces found in the
underground rooms in Kremas II and III but not in the surrounding
buildings, he appears to have posited at various times that either there
was after all a functional gas chamber there, or that there was magic
cyanide emission from the cremation ovens which leaked only into those
underground chambers and nowhere else.  It is strange how he has not
noticed that he has suggested his own contradictory true truths which also
contradict science, but what can you expect from a troll?



>	Testimony from an eyewitness that does not comport with physical
>law is only evidence that the person was not an eyewitness.

    Perhaps someday the Giwer-troll will explain what gas chamber
testimonies unambiguously contradict physical law, when read by someone
with a normal adult reading comprehension.


>And thus, no legitimate
>>    historian studying these events gives credence to theses that the
>>    gassing did not happen.  Only the crackpots who ignore all of the above
>>    hold to those theses.
>
>	When the historians have started with the conclusion there was
>gassing they have established nothing.  

    I await the alternate theory which better explains ALL observations,
physical, testimonial, and documentary evidence.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 18:08:41 PDT 1996
Article: 40084 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The roots of genocidal action
Date: 29 May 1996 17:19:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4oif1n$ff@access5.digex.net>
References: <4o3hng$cl5@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <4oa0as$9nd@boris.eden.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Kimberley Ahlf   wrote:
>
>
>On Sun, 26 May 1996, Mike Curtis wrote:
>
>> Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:
>>
>> I'm reading Mr. Goldhagen's book now. So far his revisionism, or so he
>> claims, is in the attempt to examine the perpetrators individually
>> rahter than as a group or in the abstract. In order to this he will
>> start over and examine the German Society prior to the War and during
>> the war using certain methods and sources.
>>
>> The point so far that intrigues me is his claim that past approaches
>> considered Germany to be a society much like our own. If this is true
>> then the various excuses and rationals ascribed to the people as
>> reasons for what they did in carrying out the Holocaust will not work.

[snip]

>I should be finishing Goldhagen's book now, but instead here I sit.
>
>What's most telling to me about his thesis is that it is more agreeable at
>a visceral level than the stock 'following orders' explanation of
>the past.  His technique of pushing backwards the historical context in
>which the study of German motivations must take place is something which
>makes a lot of sense.  His simple question:  If exterminationist
>anti-semitism can be shown to be prevalent in Germany long before the
>birth of Hitler, why then should the assumption be made that it
>disappeared only to be reinvented and imposed upon a reluctant culture by
>the Nazis?
>
>His answer, that the assumption can't be made, makes the motivations of the
>perpetrators far easier to understand than the more orthodox explanations.
>It makes more sense to believe that German's were culturally programmed
>from birth to view Jews as sinister and non-human than to believe that a
>propoganda fog somehow temporarily clouded the minds and judgement of so
>many.

    Here I must play ogre and point out that the _really_ comforting thing
about Goldhagen's thesis is that it allows us to pretend "it can't happen
here."  Unfortunately, events in Bosnia and such things as the psych
experiments where students were told to administer "shocks" to actors
pretending to be in extreme pain show that a) far too many people can come
to regard other people as demons worth of death, and b) a lot of people
_are_ willing to suspend their own moral judgement in deference to
authority.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 18:08:42 PDT 1996
Article: 40090 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 29 May 1996 17:40:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4oig8f$2h8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4o0euq$llf@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4obs61$2lh@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4ocj4b$pf2@boris.eden.com> <4odja6$c4u@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4odja6$c4u@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>>    Ok, we have two levels of discussion going here.  Lets separate them.
>>>>    First, the regular archivists on this group (with maybe one or two
>>>>    exceptions) are not professional historians.  
>
>>>	But who insist upon mindlessly posting out of context quotations
>>>from out of context books and who want to keep the discussion to
>>>stories about the holocaust rather than the holocaust itself.
>
>>I think this works both ways. There are several different methods
>>going on here. If you are so concerned with out-of-context quotes,
>>then prove they are out of context. 
>
>	By inspection.  Is that not obvious to you?  

    Fine.  You claim that something is taken out of context somewhere,
present the actual text or a pointer to it so that people can inspect your
evidence and decide if they agree with your judgement.  That's what I do -
I have posted specific DejaNews URLs so that people can see exactly what I
am claiming is evidence of your lying. 

    Whenever you are challenged to back up your claims about what other
people have said, you simply repeat your mantra, "Read everything which is
posted."  But if you are confused about what you have read, of course
nobody will be able to recognize your evidence.  And I can show specific
examples of your reading disabilities.



>>Claiming that records are false, pictures are fake, docments are
>>forged, and other claims against the whole history of the holocuast
>>suggests a massive conspiracy that is ridiculous when one considers
>>the massive scope of this denial. This is part of where the Butz book
>>fails. Butz blaims the "zionist international", Communists, U.S.
>>Goverment War Refugee Board, the Office of Strategic Services, YIVO,
>>U.S. Government officials, the persecutors and judges of the war
>>crimes trials, Polish-Jewish Propagandists, Soviet Officials, and the
>>media with help from the Red Cross. Not one of these conspirators have
>>come forward to this day.[Lipstadt, _Denying the Holocaust_ pg. 126]
>>So if you have a problem with the quotes, do the work to prove them
>>out of context or false.
>
>	You continue to confuse gassing with events for which there is
>evidence.

    Pretending for the moment that the early Polish tests on the
ventilation grilles were faked, even "revisionists" admit there are faint
cyanide traces in the rooms which I believe were used as gas chambers. 
Surrounding structures do not bear such traces.  Please explain this
physical evidence with a theory which does not require that there was a
functional gas chamber in Kremas II and III.  And please do not say, "I
have already done so," because as far as I can tell if you have, you have
posted conflicting true truths of your own, one of which violates
scientific laws. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 19:51:33 PDT 1996
Article: 40095 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 29 May 1996 18:06:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <4oihou$3a6@access5.digex.net>
References: <4n83nh$nq4@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4o7h5k$sed@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4o8o52$2en@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 25 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>>> Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:
>>I am sorry if my ignorance is not extensive enough to be non-threatening
>>to you.  Hitler's quotation from the Nuremburg speech is quite famous
>>(as you indicated when you ridiculed me earlier for citing it.)  I found
>>it in the one book I own which pertains exclusively to the holocaust.
>
>	Please do not kid yourself into thinking that anything you are
>ever going to do are say short of pointing a gun at me will be
>considered threatening.  In which case you better be faster than
>me or you die without a second thought.  

    Aren't we paranoid.

    Better watch out for that ringing telephone too.  Since you refuse to
believe me when I tell you anyone could have done it, if the Israeli
government mailbombed you then the Mossad putting a bomb in your phone is
a distinct possibility.  They do that, you know.


>>Yes, please accept that I have the ability to recall what I have read and
>>retrieve the source of my recollections.  If you expect that only people
>>who have no prior exposure to history can give you a fair shake, then you
>>have been correct in the past when you have judged me 'unfit' to judge
>>your positions.  Being on a jury of your selecting would be an insult to
>>anyone.
>
>	But then your readings did in fact bias you and rather than
>pursue the matter openly it was about your third reply that
>elicited the quote.   That is exactly how the pretend innocent
>seekers of the truth work in talk.origins.  A couple of seeming
>innocent exchanges and then a quotation right out of Gish.
>Perhaps you simply innocently did the same thing.  However,
>having seen the same pattern many times before I will rest with
>my conclusion.
>
>>> >I will tell you again:  I arrived knowing a little and with a healthy
>>> >skepticism of your ideas and criticisms.
>>>
>>> 	Excuse me.  How would you know what my ideas were before you
>>> arrived?

    Probably through the same psychic methods by which you know the
motives and background of everyone else posting here.  As below, where you
claim to know Ms. Ahlf's mind better than she does herself.


[snip]

>>> I leave knowing more but with a
>>> >definite hostility toward your ideas and criticisms, a hostility I did not
>>> >previously possess.
>>>
>>> 	Were you more honest you would admit you arrived with that
>>> hostility in full bloom and have not changed in the least.
>
>>I think I have been very honest and I regret that the greatest failing in
>>my discourse with you has been my inability to convey that to you.
>
>	My apologies but I find the parallel between your actions and the
>"truth seeking, skeptical" creationists so compelling I can not
>accept anything you are saying in this regard.

    How does this differ from others noting that the parallel between your
actions and the Nazi-hugging antisemitic revisionists is so compelling
that they cannot accept anything you say about your own background and
motives?  You are of course not honest enough to admit this, but you are
doing pretty much the same thing here. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 19:51:34 PDT 1996
Article: 40098 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 29 May 1996 16:25:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4oibr5$oek@access5.digex.net>
References: <4nu7ab$bvk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>  <4o2sfu$os5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Kimberley Ahlf   wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 23 May 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 	But there you go with an aspersion upon my "intellectual
>> honesty."  Were you reading all of those claims that I was lying
>> when I said that bones burned?  Have you missed they "knew all
>> along" that it was that it was the trick statement about calcium
>> that I identified immediately?  Whose intellectual honesty are
>> you talking about?
>
>I am sorry, I did not read the above postings but I will accept your
>assertion that others may have behaved dishonestly toward you.

    It is Matt Giwer who is being dishonest here.  The original topic of
discussion was whether bones burn to ash in a normal fire or at normal
cremation temperatures.  (They do not - ask your local crematorium
operator about what they have to do after the burn cycle is complete.)
Please refer to

        URL:                                                             
          http://xp2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?RECNUM=8117947&SERVER=dnserve    
          r.db96q1&CONTEXT=833400994.4450&HITNUM=7                              

to see Mr. Giwer's original comments in context.  Nor is this the only
time Mr. Giwer has lied about the history of a discussion.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed May 29 19:51:35 PDT 1996
Article: 40099 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust Plea
Supersedes: <4oia21$lmk@access5.digex.net>
Date: 29 May 1996 16:32:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 225
Message-ID: <4oic96$p76@access5.digex.net>
References: <3195f4ad.4026496@news.pacificnet.net> <4ntnfe$bq0@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4o2o1v$bm5@shiva.usa.net> <4o380e$609@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4o380e$609@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ntnfe$bq0@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
>
>>	What you folks have been ignoring is that I posted the AVERAGE
>>	correct answer weeks before this exchange started.
>
>>What an "average" correct answer is, only Mr. Giwer knows!  Perhaps
>>he means that the answer is correct half the time and incorrect the
>>other half!
>
>	You have never heard of the "average" 2.4 children per family?
>It appears you are not sufficiently acculturated to participate
>in this discussion.

    It appears Mr. Giwer does not have sufficient literacy to recognize
sarcasm when he sees it.

>	As I noted later the MORE there were in the controlled territory
>the LOWER the effectiveness ratio.  Put all 5 million in the
>controlled territory.  Then the efficiency rater was 47%.  Then
>the average person lost .88 relatives.  If you put them all by
>some miracle outside of Germany occupied Russia then then you
>have an 86% or an average 6.1 relatives lost.  
>
>	We are still no where never everyone losing their entire family.

    "We" (I guess Mr. Giwer has given up and joined the "we"s here)  are
still "no where never" (I assume this is Giwerundean for "nowhere near") 
finding out who ever said EVERYONE lost their entire family.  This appears
to be yet another one of the Giwer-troll's little fantasies or reading
dysfunctions.

    First, let's review the bidding and remember this whole discussion
started when Tom Moran scoffed that _anyone_ (not _everyone_) could have
lost 100 relatives.  The Giwer-troll is lying with statistics in several
ways.  First, he gave an average of _unique_ relatives.  Sorry, the
relatives who died are not unique.  If two people out of a family of 102
survive, each can truthfully claim to have lost 100 _nonunique_ relatives
although each lost on average 50 _unique_ relatives.  But then, since they
probably have to share some of them with in-laws of in-laws, the average
of unique relatives per person drops even more.  Yet as I said, since the
initial claim was a total, not an average, the Giwer-troll is just playing
dishonest trolling games here by tossing in discussion of average numbers
of dead relatives per living person as if it meant anything in the context
of this discussion.

    Second, families tended to cluster geographically at that time much
more strongly than in our mobile society.  Members of entire families
living outside of Nazi-controlled areas would, on average, tend to lose
far fewer relatives than members of entire families living inside
Nazi-controlled areas.  The distribution of family members was _not_
uniform.  Talking about averages in such a circumstance is highly
misleading and dishonest.

    Or the Giwer-troll does not understand statistics.  Take your pick. 


>	What you consider facts is merely dubious to impossible personal
>testimony.  Any and all claims can be independently checked by
>math and science.  It matters not what anyone has said if it can
>not pass those kinds of tests.

    Giwer has said he has a 163 IQ, but his posts certainly don't seem to
pass that test. 



>>	Next we note that the official Jewish number is 5.2 million or
>>	thereabouts giving them a 61% efficiency rate.
>
>>	That leaves use with each Jew losing on average 1.2 unique
>>	relatives without doing the 100 out of 200 rountine I
>>	demonstrated above.  Access to any larger number of Russian Jews
>>	results in a lower average.
>
>>A statistician would say that if Mr. Giwer stood with
>>one foot embedded in a cake of ice and the other foot embedded in a
>>heap of burning coals, on "average" Mr. Giwer is comfortable!
>
>	But you are completely ignorant of statistics so how would you
>know?

    If Mr. Giwer claims knowledge of statistics then for the reasons I
have outlined he is being deliberately deceptive.


>Why would you bother to pretend to knowledge you do not
>have?

    Given the Giwer-troll's performance in the United Nations discussion,
his repeated contradictions of a practicing attorney, his errors about the
design of the crematoria and ovens, his claims about burning bones and
nitrogen, his demonstrated illiteracy even as he insults that of others,
his claims about the knowledge of others which require mindreading, and
his pretense that he understands the issues involved in his mailbombing
>from  Israel when I know quite well that he does not, Mr. Giwer ought to
answer this question himself.


>Is it so important to you to defend your view of the
>holocaust that you will deliberately attempt to mislead people
>with your false pretensions?  

    Again, it is Mr. Giwer who ought to be answering this question, as he
has repeatedly lied and pretended to have knowledge he does not have.


>	I realize that it is the standard practice of the holohuggers to
>pretend to understand what they do not understand and then make
>false claims about what is said, but why do you PERSONALLY do it?

    Again, it is Mr. Giwer who should be answering this question.  He has
pretended to understand the history and layout of Birkenau and the Kremas
when he does not, and made false claims about what both he and others have
said.  Why does he personally do it?



>>	My original exercise in determining the average number of unique
>>	relatives was originally buried under a pile of "I lost my whole
>>	family and so did my brothers" messages.  I have it always found
>>	it curious that world is populated with Jews who lost their
>>	entire families and no other type.  
>
>>I have always found it curious that someone who claims to be as
>>intelligent as Mr. Giwer claims he is, continually bases his opinions
>>on vague impressions and hunches instead of facts.  
>
>	You must be completely innumerate to consider rather elementary
>math to be an impression or a hunch.  Yet you pretend otherwise.

    Mr. Giwer must be completely illiterate or completely dishonest to
think that Mr. Katz is suggesting any such thing.  (The two are not
mutually exclusive.)


>There are, in
>>fact, many Jews who did not lose any family to the Nazis.

    We lost one very distant branch.  At a guess I would say the expansion
of the family tree necessary to consider them as part of my family would
raise the number of people in my family to well over 500, and I think the
number of people lost was under twenty.  There were well over a hundred
people at the last family reunion, counting the second and third cousins,
and that is just my father's side.  Until the first family reunion was
organized a few years ago, I didn't have a clue I had so many relatives.
But I guess some people have more interest in such things than I do.


>>  On the
>>other hand, there are families that were lost entirely, leaving no
>>members behind to testify to their suffering.  As extended families
>>were more the rule at that time in Eastern Europe and Russia, it is
>>not hard to see how the Nazis would end up rounding up entire families.
>
>	I am simply commenting upon the common presentation of the
>holocaust.  Everyone who speaks lost some huge number of family.

    Well, of course the people who did not lose some huge number of family
would not speak about how many they did not lose.  I have never heard Mr. 
Giwer speak about how terrible it wasn't not to have experienced the
earthquake he didn't live through.  Come to think of it, I have never
heard people in Florida go out of their way to say that Hurricane Andrew
was no big deal.  But perhaps Mr. Giwer should tell those whiners to shut
up.  After all, the average American lost about $100 hurricane damage to
that storm and even the average Dade County resident probably lost less
than 1% of a unique house.  All those tales of thousands of homeless
people must have been a scam.  The numbers do not lie. 



>	The thought was also brought up by the prevalence of holocaust
>survivors which appears to be some sort of badge of honor and to
>include people who left Germany in the 1930s.  That is what lead
>to my Agent 86 comment, "missed it by THAT much."  
>
>>	It certainly puts a different perspective on things when instead
>>	of talking about "entire families" one simply says 61%.
>
>>Indeed! -- an entirely false perspective!
>
>	It is right there in the numbers.  Even the worst case numbers
>don't make it sound much different at 6.1 relatives per person.
>But then, you can not comprehend numbers.

   As I have said, people do not lose only relatives they do not share
with other people.  So Mr. Giwer's discussion of average number of
_unique_ relatives (relatives not also counted as someone else's relative
when counting numbers of family members lost) is just another bit of
dishonest trollery.  If the Nazis caused the death of 50% of the Jews of
Europe, then (ignoring geographic clustering and relatives in America) the
average European survivor lost 50% of his or her family - as did every
other member of his or her family who survived.


>>	Of course there would be extremes of people who really are the
>>	only survivors of their family but they would be balanced by
>>	equal numbers who lost no family members but those folks do not
>>	appear to exist.  
>
>>Only because Mr. Giwer has taken no trouble to find any!  Moreover,
>>there is a flaw in Mr. Giwer's logic.  He said there needs to be
>>"equal numbers who lost no family members" whereas his own analysis
>>indicates that there need only be 39% who lost no family members, and
>>they would balance those families that lost every member -- not the
>>families that lost all but one member.  So, even in the realm of
>>abstract logic, Mr. Giwer is a dismal failure.
>
>	You may present YOUR analysis when you master the basics.  I will
>look forward to reading it.  Until then, please at least admit
>you have no ability to judge math.

    I look forward to Mr. Giwer's admission that either he does not
understand the issues involved in this discussion of statistics and
demographics, or his admission that he has been wilfully deceptive here in
pretending that talking about _unique_ relatives lost is in any way
meaningful with regard to this discussion. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu May 30 07:33:13 PDT 1996
Article: 40124 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!msunews!caen!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Am I sued yet?
Date: 29 May 1996 18:40:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4oijoh$4uc@access5.digex.net>
References: <4o8v1g$i7d@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4o8v1g$i7d@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>
>	A certain Gord McFee has been making an ass of the entire
>holohugger community by claiming he is going to sue me.  

    Excuse me, but I seem to have missed this definite claim that he was
going to sue you.  Please repost it.

    A certain Matt Giwer was making an ass of the entire Giwer community
by making a very definite claim that a certain Gord McFee (or McFly,
occasionally) was the same person who was posting forgeries from
idirect.com and who made crank phone calls to Mr. Giwer.  The words
"criminal conspiracy" popped up in one post.


>	I am still waiting for the service. 

    Even if he were contemplating such action it would be premature to do
so until he determined you had sufficient assets to make such an action
worthwhile.

    I am still waiting for an arrest of the nose-honker who was positively
identified by Mr. Giwer as being Gordon McFee.  What's the problem,
officer?



> When are these holohuggers going to learn how they discredit
>themselves with such "threats"? 

    And I seem to recall a certain Matt Giwer threateing a libel suit
against Rack Jite.  Was that when you learned how you discredit yourself
with such threats?

    I presume you now admit you discredited yourself with your silly and
false claims that Gordon McFee was Marduk and the crank phone caller. 


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu May 30 07:33:14 PDT 1996
Article: 40146 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: one more time
Date: 30 May 1996 00:29:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4oj87e$i0n@access1.digex.net>
References: <4o7uc6$fas@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4oa5bf$4e60@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4obair$19f@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4obair$19f@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>
>>In article <4o7uc6$fas@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>>Giwer) said:
>
>>>
>>>	Who was the person speaking in that post that so many claimed was Adolph
>>>Eichmann?  Does anyone know yet?
>
>>The person was Eichmann.
>
>	Lets us review the bidding.
>
>	The claim is now that a Lt. Col.'s immediate superior was a two
>star General.  
>
>	I believe that is correct.
>
>	As his immediate superior so greatly outranked him he was not a
>line officer but a staff officer.  Therefore he was clearly only
>following orders and had no authority to make decisions or issue
>orders on his own initiative.  
>
>	Again he is exonerated of the charges.

    The "just following orders" defense has not been accepted.



>	So now we have three choices.  
>
>1) he reported to a different Mueller and was not The Eichmann 
>
>2) he is the real Eichmann but was improperly found guilty as he
>was a staff officer 
>
>3) we distort the entire rank system to find him guilty.
>
>	Lets keep this one going for a while.  I am curious what you are
>going to do with this one.

    Congratulate you on doing a reasonably good job of diverting attention
>from  the fact that you failed to read the attribution in the original post
and stupidly asked who was answering the questions when the name was only
a few lines above your question.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu May 30 07:33:15 PDT 1996
Article: 40147 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Whence 12 Million?
Date: 29 May 1996 13:21:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4oi12v$d99@access5.digex.net>
References: <4ohs4h$929@access5.digex.net> <4ohvsm$g3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ohvsm$g3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Ehrlich606  wrote:
>Actually, this is not what I am getting at all.  I am granting that Jews
>were in many cases killed just because they were Jews.  I many be wrong on
>this, but I don't think that can be said about any other group in WW2. 

    Huh?  Gypsies were killed just because they were Gypsies, and due to
the same racial ideology.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu May 30 20:02:18 PDT 1996
Article: 54432 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Peres on the Goyim
Date: 30 May 1996 17:28:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <4ol3ta$337@access5.digex.net>
References: <31923590.4941081@news.cybercom.net> <319fa8bf.176318946@news.cybercom.net> <31A27926.359A@netvision.net.il> <31a26cc3.1543993@news.cybercom.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.israel:35437 soc.culture.jewish:54432 talk.politics.mideast:74126

In article <31a26cc3.1543993@news.cybercom.net>,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>Avi Jacobson  wrote:
>>Well, there is "shelo asani goy" ("Blessed art Thou O Lord our God King 
>>of the Universe, that Thou didst not make me a gentile"), but before you 
>>have a field day with that one, think about "Thank God I'm an American". 
>> Is there a difference?
>
>Avi,
>
>Could you please quote the entire prayer verbatim? I can't locate it. I vaguely
>remember that it used the imagery of light and darkness to describe the
>relationship between Israel and "the nations."
>
>Regarding, "Is there a difference?" There is an immense difference. America is
>not an ethnic group, but a collection of the world's ethnic groups. Americas do
>not have a word to describe "non-Americans,"

    Um, ever hear the word "foreigner?"  (Esp. when pronounced
"furriner.") 


>and they almost never refer to all
>non-Americans in a derogatory fashion as an indiscriminate mass.  Nor
>have Americans constructed a detailed messianic religion based on
>discriminating between "America" and "the non-Americans."

    Well, neither did the Nazis, but they did look down on non-Aryans from
a framework which was not religious though it might arguably be called
messianic.  I think the issue of whether religion is involved is a red
herring. 

    Speaking of which, did you ever get a chance to talk to Arno Mayer?


>It is one thing to think one is a citizen of a wonderful nation. It is another
>thing to berate everyone who is not a member of one's ethnic group. The
>difference is immense. Berating everyone who is not a member of one's ethnic
>group is crude racism, pure and simple.

    So is berating everyone who is a member of a specific ethnic group,
Jose (to steal a line from Pat Buchanan).  And the unfortunate fact is
that if one declares America to be the most wonderful nation on earth,
there is an inescapable logical corollary that all other nations are less
wonderful.  Now, I leave it to you to decide whether there is a difference
between calling someone not as good as you and berating them.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri May 31 09:01:45 PDT 1996
Article: 40285 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: 31 May 1996 01:22:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4olvn9$e2@access1.digex.net>
References: <316a7397.6836954@news.pacificnet.net> <4oc0ri$ata@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ofiob$kh0@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogj58$ine@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4ogj58$ine@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>miloslav.bilik@atd.fdn.fr (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>>>	Another idiot who believes that fire can be maintained in the
>>>>>absense of oxygen.  It must be a real shit ass university.

    Just in passing, let me note that the poster had called the process
"distillation."  Nothing was said about burning without oxygen, only
heating something without oxygen.  If Mr. Giwer thinks that oxygen is
required for heating, then obviously his physics degree is a fake.


>>>>Can you imagine that it is possible to heat coal in an oven, without
>>>>oxygen in the oven? Or to cook a boiled-egg without hydrogen peroxyd ?
>
>>>>Is it a 'shit ass university' question ?
>
>>>	Excuse me, good sir, but the first holohugger post regarding the
>>>production of coke from coal was that it was produced in an
>>>oxygen starved process.  You are now claiming it is produced is
>>>in zero oxygen environment.

    But only you are claiming that the process involves any kind of
burning of the substance which is in the oxygen-starved environment.  This
is evidence either of your poor reading comprehension or your dishonesty,
take your pick.


>>Sorry, I didn't read this post. But I read from your part that the
>>combustion of coke would produce HCN; some replies about the
>>difference between production of coke and combustion of coke; and
>>recently that you thought that perhaps the corpses could produce the
>>HCN not produced by the coke combustion.
>
>>In the same way, you smoothly told first that Ca could burn and a few
>>later that **bones** could burn, obviously because it is only Ca++ in
>>the bones.
>
>	My original statement was that bones burn.

    But in the context of a discussion of cremation, which does not occur
at a high enough temperature to burn the bones.  Yet you responded to a
comment that it was necessary to crush the bones after cremation with a
comment about calcium and physical chemistry.

    In the real world crematorium operators still have to crush the bones
before putting them into the urn.  You didn't know that about the real
world.  I guess you must be an academic.


>I have been fully
>aware that the flexibilty of bones is due to the organic
>structure containing the calcium for decades.  The confusion was
>not introduced the confusion.  

    What introduced the confusion in that last sentence?


>>Quote the posts, it will be easy to see who denies even his own posts.
>
>	I do not save anything.  

    Then where did those old Muy Groso reposts come from? 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri May 31 11:48:13 PDT 1996
Article: 40301 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Matt Giwer's paranoia
Date: 31 May 1996 00:06:06 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4olr7e$qlp@access1.digex.net>
References: <4n83nh$nq4@moe.cc.emory.edu> <4o8o52$2en@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4oihou$3a6@access5.digex.net> <4ojf50$1mc@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4ojf50$1mc@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4o8o52$2en@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:
>>>	Please do not kid yourself into thinking that anything you are
>>>ever going to do are say short of pointing a gun at me will be
>>>considered threatening.  In which case you better be faster than
>>>me or you die without a second thought.
>
>>    Aren't we paranoid.
>
>	Your WE may be.  I am not.  A statement of fact is all I made.

    If it is indeed a statement of fact then you must be much more
accurate when shooting off your gun than when shooting off your mouth. 
Otherwise, Kimberly will have time for a tenth, eleventh, and twelfth
thought at the very least, not to mention a cup of coffee and a reading of
the newspaper, including the classifieds.


>>    Better watch out for that ringing telephone too.  Since you refuse to
>>believe me when I tell you anyone could have done it, if the Israeli
>>government mailbombed you then the Mossad putting a bomb in your phone is
>>a distinct possibility.  They do that, you know.
>
>	I said an employee of the Israeli government did it and that is
>the same as the government itself unless their laws are different
>in that regard from those of the US.
>
>	You are very strange person to remember so incorrectly.

    What is even stranger is that DejaNews appears to remember incorrectly
as well.  According to their archive, what you said in your first article
announcing the mailbomb was, and I quote, "You will notice that this
harrassment policy appears to be that of the Government of Israel also."

    I am sorry, good sir, but there is no honest way to interpret this
statement as merely calling it an employee acting on his or her own and
casting legal responsibility on the employer.  (Not that this will stop
you from trying.)  And all I did was point out that if you really believe
what you said about such an Israeli government policy, then there are some
other defensive measures you should take. 

    First you announce that Gordon McFee is making harrassing telephone
calls, and mutter dark words about criminal conspiracies.  (Where's the
arrest?)  Now you appear to think the Israeli government has a policy of
mailbombing people like you.  No doubt it gives you comfort to think you
have such importance, but at this point it really looks like you need the
same radioextractive dental work you advise for Rack Jite.

    Why do you lie about what you said earlier when DejaNews has it all
recorded to prove you are a liar?  I am really curious.

    Of course I note that you have not accepted my wager that I can prove
how anyone, not just an Israeli government employee, could have mailbombed
you.  You are pretty quick to blow off your ignorant mouth and call people
liars when talk is cheap, but I notice that when it becomes expensive you
get very quiet very quickly.  Or is the problem just that your magic
newsfilter once again hid an especially inconvenient article from you?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri May 31 14:34:46 PDT 1996
Article: 40317 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: alt.revisionism
Date: 31 May 1996 00:58:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4olua5$sfl@access1.digex.net>
References: <4o66b7$c7i@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4ob8mt$2fs@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ofreu$5a6@access5.digex.net> <4oge40$n3h@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4oge40$n3h@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4ob8mt$2fs@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	Say OB (I can call you OB can't I?) as we left it last time,
>>>Nizkor was still await its tax exemption and Alec G. reported
>>>that tax receipts can only be given to tax free organizations and
>>>that the synagogue was still offering tax receipts for your
>>>non-tax exempt organization.
>>>
>>>	Do you have it straightened out yet?
>
>>    I posted a factual discussion of the issues in misc.taxes some time
>>ago, with a note posted here that I had done so.  The fact that you did
>>not choose to read and discuss that issue in the appropriate newsgroup
>>shows that you are just a troll who is not interested in facts, only in
>>causing arguments.
>
>	Right.  You could post it there, in a conference my provider
>might not even carry, but you were unable to post it here.  

    Excuse me, good sir, but we both know quite well that Netcom is one of
the largest ISPs in the country and carries a full newsfeed.  Furthermore
if there is any real question of "might not carry," misc.taxes is far
likelier to be carried even by a small provider than anything in the alt
hierarchy.  So this "might not carry" nonsense is nothing but more
juvenile game playing by a dishonest troll with no real interest in facts,
only in argument.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri May 31 16:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 40335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Giwer's own conflicting true truths
Date: 31 May 1996 14:22:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <4ondcd$35l@access5.digex.net>
References:  <4oc0ci$5qk@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4oksuk$6qu@shiva.usa.net> <4omc92$3er@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4omc92$3er@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>	I find it most intriguing that I have missed that one episode in
>>	the entire series.
>
>>Even more intriguing is Mr. Giwer's belief that his television viewing
>>habits are relevent to this discussion.  Given Mr. Giwer's difficulty
>>in following discussions, chances are that he did indeed see this
>>episode, but just did not understand what was going on at the time.
>
>	Even more interesting that I saw no such episode as in a
>suggestion that the wrong serious was named.

    But then, Mr. Giwer also claimed he would have remembered seeing
newspaper articles about protests outside a Cambodian embassy which did
not exist.  So he must have forgotten the newspaper articles mentioning
the severance of diplomatic relations with the Pol Pot regime.  Therefore
Mr. Giwer's testimony about what he saw and didn't see is worthless.


>>	Can you narrow it down for me better than that?
>
>>Sure!  Just as soon as Mr. Giwer answers any one of the myriad
>>of questions that have been put to him!
>
>	In other words, you can not.

    If that is the only valid conclusion, then you have just admitted that
you lie and lie frequently.


>>	I also find it truly amazing that after all these years the
>>	sedimentation would possibly permit one to simply reach in and
>>	grab a handful of it.  
>
>>As if to prove what I wrote above, Mr. Giwer displays his inability
>>to follow the discussion.  Mr. Schultz wrote, "Jacob Bronowski stood in
>>one of those ponds and held some of those ashes in his hands."
>>Nowhere does it says that Bronowski "simply reached in and grabbed a
>>handful," as Mr. Giwer so colorfully, and inaccurately, put it.
>
>	Good sir, your knowledge of limnoly is as lacking as your
>knowledge of reality.

    This from the man who thinks that tubes cannot poke through topsoil,
that ground-level platforms have steps, that "paupacy" is a word in the
English language, that testimony is not evidence, that the fact that
calcium burns means anything about whether bones burn to ash in a
crematorium (ask your local crematorium operator what he thinks of that
one), .... 


>>This is the heart and soul of Mr. Giwer's method: He reads some
>>detail into the writings of others that is not there to begin with,
>>and then he criticises this detail that he himself invented.
>
>>	Do you really not realize how stupid this claim sounds even
>>	if it was on television?
>
>>Of course we realize "how stupid this claim sounds" because we know
>>it comes from the master of stupidity, Mr. Giwer himself!  But does
>>Mr. Giwer realize how stupid he sounds when he first claims the ashes
>>ought to be in the pond for anyone to find, and then claims that
>>Bronowski is a fraud because he did find it.
>
>	Of course, you believe a JOURNALIST knows what he is talking
>about.  Sure you are stupid enough to believe that brown colored
>muck is ashes just as he did.

    Excuse me, good sir, but Mr. Katz has put his finger on a point I
wondered if anyone else would see.  First you imply that if hundreds of
thousands of people were killed and cremated at Birkenau, then large
quantities of physical evidence of those bodies should have been found.
Now you claim that it would be impossible to find them.  I am terribly
sorry, but you cannot have it both ways.  Which of these conflicting true
truths do you wish to be true?  Would the physical evidence of many burned
bodies be findable or would it not?  It does not matter to me which one of
these conflicting true truths you choose, but please do choose one and
stick to it from now on. 


>>	We are talking a deep layer that could only show up in a core
>>	sample and no one could simply reach in and get a handful for
>>	the cameras.
>
>>That implies that Mr. Giwer knows the sedimentation rate for this
>>particular pond, but then again, Mr. Giwer is a swami who sees all
>>and knows all, while the rest of the world wallows in ignorance.
>
>	After 50 years?  I don't have to know a thing about rate.

    Excuse me good sir, but either you know that the rate is fast enough
to mean it would be a deep layer, or you do not.  If you claim you can
know it is a deep layer then you must know that there is a certain minimum
rate.  Do you know a thing about the rate or do you not?  Which one of
these conflicting true truths do you want to be true today?

    I await the answer of our 163 IQ critical thinking type as to which of
his conflicting true truths he wishes to be true. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri May 31 20:07:45 PDT 1996
Article: 40360 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That lovely bomb morgue/bomb shelter
Date: 31 May 1996 14:05:23 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4oncd3$2c8@access5.digex.net>
References: <4o5sp7$5ss@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4o89s6$5h2@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4ojbs4$hon@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4ojbs4$hon@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>REALITY CHECK: How about Giwer instead telling us why semi-buried morgues
>>that are bermed and covered with topsoil _shouldn't_ have concrete roofs?
>>(Note that said berming and covering would have an insulative effect,
>>helping to regulate the temperature to keep the morgues at a constant
>>temperature- just like it does in root cellars. Not to mention that the
>>topsoil and snow during the winter is rather heavy- thus requiring a
>>sturdy roof for such an expanse. Or that such a flat roof, being exposed
>>to seepage from rain and snow, would also need to be water resistant-
>>hence the use of a concrete and water-proof felt composite.) 
>
>	Obviously you will not answer the question.  As you know there is
>no indication of covered from the artist's conception with
>topsoil

    When and where did you see this artist's conception?


>else your gas introduction holes could not exist.

    Our superscientist now declares that one cannot put any sort of tube
through topsoil.  Very good.


>Further you know that a gas chamber would need to be as warm as
>possible for the speed of the outgassing of the pellets

    No, only as warm as necessary.  20 degrees C would be a perfectly fine
temperature.  Of course if the first intent was to make the room a morgue
(as it seems to be) then it would be good to regulate the temperature. The
aim would not be to kill as fast as possible, simply to kill fast enough.
They could already gas them faster than they could burn them.


>so that
>insulation would be counter productive.  The huge expanse of an
>uninsulated roof would be counterproductive to a morgue yet those
>are the only drawings known to exist.
>
>	But the question is, why was there a more expensive flat roof in
>the first place?  Why will you not answer that question?  Why not
>the much cheaper peaked wood roof as with the other two
>structures?  A common exhaust fan in that would have kept it
>cooler.

    Indeed, there is an even bigger mystery here.  Since the Giwer-troll
appears to be suggesting that the reinforced roof, the ventilation system,
and the gas-tight door (which he tried to call an air-tight door, although
that is not the word the SS used) were for use as a bomb shelter.  But
only one of the two underground rooms were so equipped.  The other room
had neither the door nor the ventilation system, though a ventilation
system was originally planned for it.  If they decided not to make it a
bomb shelter, then they should have left it a morgue.  Yet they did not
put the corpse chute back into the design, which would make it easier to
use as a morgue, which is what it was called on the drawings.  So it would
appear to have been neither a bomb shelter, nor a morgue, nor a gas
chamber.  Yet it still had the expensive reinforced flat roof.

    I await the explanation of our 163 IQ critical thinking type.  Maybe
the design engineers were simply incompetent.  But if that is the case,
then there is no valid conclusion that can be reached from the roof type,
and all of Mr. Giwer's finger-flapping about what engineers do and don't
do is worthless since of course it would only apply to competent
engineers. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jun  1 05:53:50 PDT 1996
Article: 40366 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Ultimate Extermination System
Supersedes: <4ondiu$3aq@access5.digex.net>
Date: 31 May 1996 14:27:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4ondls$3d9@access5.digex.net>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4o8psp$ni3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4okq55$6qu@shiva.usa.net> <4omb7c$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4omb7c$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>In article <4o8psp$ni3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
>
>>	Actually it was you who attempted in mid stream to change the
>>	criteria for bodies self combusting and failed to continue the
>>	discussion.  It was also you who got me called a liar for
>>	claiming that bones burn.  
>
>>	I have dropped no such claim as you are well aware.  All you
>>	were doing was using the formal meaning of the term burning to
>>	make it appear I was lying and those you deceived claimed I was
>>	lying for saying that HCN was a "burn" byproduct.  
>
>>That is not the way that most readers will remember this controversy.
>
>>Mr. Giwer continually claims to be the only person qualified to
>>discuss matters of chemistry, going so far as to blast anyone else
>>who contributes to the discussion as totally unfit (usually after they
>>prove him to be dead wrong).
>
>	After the usual example of a religious fanatic who has accepted
>the holocaust as an article of faith has shown himself to be a
>liar for Yahweh AND admits it, no person with integrity woud side
>with such a person.

    So are you claiming the DejaNews system is a liar for Yahweh and has
no integrity?  Because it remembers your words the same way Mr. Katz and I
do.

    Or do you believe that computers can suffer from false memory
syndrome?  Inquiring minds want to know.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jun  1 05:53:51 PDT 1996
Article: 40412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is trolling?
Date: 31 May 1996 13:45:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4onb85$19g@access5.digex.net>
References: <31ada2d8.842604@news.pacificnet.net> <4okcls$m7m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4omf59$53p@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4omf59$53p@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>	The claim of "trolling" is well understood to be a perjorative
>and nothing more.

    I am sure the Giwer-troll understands trolling to be this, but then
the English language is not something which is well understood by the
Giwer-troll.  Not to mention Hebrew character coding, crematorium
operation, the history and physical layout of Auschwitz-Birkenau, ....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jun  1 05:53:52 PDT 1996
Article: 40413 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: 31 May 1996 15:47:23 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4onicb$6oa@access5.digex.net>
References: <317b9ec0.6352405@news.pacificnet.net> <4noih4$8vs@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4nr77v$23k0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4nrmug$kn4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4nrmug$kn4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Fenton Hardy  wrote:
>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>	Still leaving your hot button hanging out, jerkoff.  

    Not only his hot button but every other part of his body is still
hanging outside of a jail cell, weeks after he was unequivocally named as
the criminal nose-honker.  From our great detective's fulminations about
criminal conspiracies, I would have thought an arrest was imminent. 

    What's the matter?  Can't crack the case without the help of your
offspring?  On strike for a higher allowance?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Jun  1 05:53:52 PDT 1996
Article: 40414 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 31 May 1996 16:02:48 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <4onj98$7e8@access5.digex.net>
References: <319A6526.7575@rio.com> <4nl7mc$qq5@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4nrg0m$eb6@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4nrmec$kn4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4nrmec$kn4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>>: 	It is understandable why you have never posted the P Chem
>>: equations [sic] after this statement.
>
>>Does this mean that you plan to give a source for you claim that HCN is
>>a byproduct of coke combustion, or retract that claim in light of the
>>evidence to the contrary posted here?
>
>	That was NEVER my claim.  I simply said that more HCN would
>PROBABLY be produced by the Kremas than was ever used in any
>extermination program.

    Excuse me good sir but either it would or it would not.  If all you
can say is "PROBABLY" then you are now admitting that you have just been
handwaving all along here.


>I added later that it was a normal pollutant produced by the combustion
>process.  

    In what quantity?  And what is the source of your data?  Excuse me,
but I cannot believe that you have personally burnt coke and measured HCN
output. 


>>And when are we going to see that translation of the Hitler quote?
>
>	What in the world are you talking about?

    Looks like Mr. Giwer's magic newsfilter kept him from seeing another
inconvenient post.

    To cite the position of another participant here, read everything
which is posted.  If you are having troubles with your newsfeed, get a new
provider.  At least that is his position when people other than himself
claim not to have seen something.  His position suddenly changes when he
himself claims not to have seen something. 

    But I suppose you will also claim you have never seen the postings of
this very hypocritical fellow.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Jun  1 05:53:53 PDT 1996
Article: 40430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Am I sued yet?
Date: 31 May 1996 00:27:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4olsf8$r0p@access1.digex.net>
References: <4o8v1g$i7d@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4oijoh$4uc@access5.digex.net> <4ojiri$24b@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <4ojiri$24b@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4o8v1g$i7d@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>
>>>	A certain Gord McFee has been making an ass of the entire
>>>holohugger community by claiming he is going to sue me.  
>
>>    Excuse me, but I seem to have missed this definite claim that he was
>>going to sue you.  Please repost it.
>
>	You obviously also missed the holohugger messages to him to sue
>me or shut up about it.

    Apparently so.  Please repost them also.  After all, that is your
mantra when you miss something.  Of course whenever anyone else misses
something your mantra suddenly becomes "Read everything which is posted. 
Do your own homework."  But of course that is only to be expected from a
lying hypocritical troll. 


>But then, you miss a lot.  Or you lie about it.

    Since you have made that claim, you now bear the burden of proof.  But
of course we both know you will never meet it.

    Furthermore you dishonestly cut a lot out of my post.  Your statement
about what I missed doesn't answer the mail, good sir.  Nor do any
requests for Gordon McFee to go ahead and sue you address the other issues
I raised, which you tried to cover up by cutting them out in your response
and failing to address them. 

    Now answer the question.  Why has there been no arrest of Gordon
McFee, whom you positively and unequivocally identified as Marduk and as
the person who made illegal harrassing phone calls to you?

    And of course let us not forget that you were the first person to
threaten a libel suit, against Rack Jite.  Therefore you are not in a very
good position to be lecturing others about silly lawsuit threats.  But you
know that. You must think people have even worse memories than you do if
you believe nobody will notice.  Unfortunately for you I have a very good
memory indeed.  And where mine fails, DejaNews has a very long and
absolutely perfect memory of nearly every word you have written here.  I
know this is inconvenient for you but that is how it is. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



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