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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/stein.michael/1996/standards-of-evidence.01


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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:46:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4ru2e1$ilk@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4ro3uv$ivb@access4.digex.net> <31E000D9.6947@unb.ca> <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4rs723$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 15:24:25 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>
>>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>>> >       There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>>> 
>>>     There may be bomb craters.  There may be evidence of a fire.  But
>>> establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)?  Or the intentionality
>>> of the fire?  What physical evidence do you have for that?  None, of
>>> course.
>
>>On the other hand, would he care to demonstrate why Dresden was hit
>>by bombs instead of a multiple meteorite strike?
>
>       Did god provide the bomb sight films?  

    Who put the caption on the films?  How do you know what town is down
there?  Is there some sort of big sign like there is in Hollywood, saying
"Dresden?"

    And of course we would also have to ask if the films show the
firestorm allegedly caused by that bombing, or whether even if they do it
indicates a true causal connection rather than a coincidence involving
Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow.

    Then of course we must ask if there is a documented chain of custody
on those films.

    And what _were_ Steven Spielberg and the KGB doing on the day those
films were made, hmn?

    So when are you going to get around to providing physical evidence of
this alleged allied firebombing of Dresden?  I see none.

-- 
Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.








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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 9 Jul 1996 13:12:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <4ru3t8$jir@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ro3uv$ivb@access4.digex.net> <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4rs71v$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 7 Jul 1996 06:36:15 -0400, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>
>>>># Anyone want to explain this one? 
>>>
>>>>[Erroneous testimony about Belsec camp]
>>>
>>>>Anyone want to explain the testimonies about Dresden's bombing? 
>>>>"Puddles of melted human flesh"? People who turned into an
>>>>"undulating layer of fine gray ashes" although the fire
>>>>didn't even touch them? People "glowing red and orange" 
>>>>(also, although the fire didn't even touch them)?
>>>
>>>     Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden but no PHYSICAL
>>>evidence of any form of mass extermination at Belsen.
>
>>    Gosh, there is physical evidence of a burned Chicago.  Guess it was
>>firebombed.
>
>       I have been over this territory before.  You have not been paying
>attention.  There are records of the mission planning, the mission
>briefings, 

    Writing down testimony does not make it a document, remember?  That
was your response about the letter to Rauff.

    Perhaps you would like to quote from them where they say that the city
would be firebombed, not just bombed?  Got a reference?  I thought not.

    But even then, we would have to ask if this could not have been just a
morbid sense of humor?  Got a chain of custody for those mission records? 
It is only one bombing mission out of many.  It is an anomaly just as you
say the Vergasungskeller memo was an anomaly.  Are we not required to look
for alternative explanations of anomalies like this?  Have you done so?



number reels of bomb site films associated with the mission,
>before and after reconnaisance pictures with associated reel numbers
>related to the mission.  There are inventory records of the bombs
>assigned to the mission.  
>
>       All of it points to the smoking gun, physical evidence of aerial
>bombardment.  
>
>       Now where were you when I recited the above last time?  Bad news feed?  

    Whee, there was aerial bombardment of many cities.  If mission records
of bombings are sufficient evidence of firebombing, then every city in
Europe had a Dresden-style barbecue, obviously. 

    Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow is looking guiltier all the time.

>
>>[snip]
>
>>>     There is physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing.
>
>>    There may be bomb craters.  There may be evidence of a fire.  But
>>establishing the causal link between (a) and (b)?  Or the intentionality
>>of the fire?  What physical evidence do you have for that?  None, of
>>course. 
>
>       All of the above.  

    Simply asserting it does not make it so.


>>>There is no physical evidence of mass extermination by any means at
>>>Belsen.  
>>>
>>>You know the difference.  It is simply inconvenient for you to admit to
>>>the difference.  
>
>>    Please tell us what physical evidence you have that the Dresden fire
>>was not really caused by Mrs. O'Schmidt's cow, and that the bombing was
>>just coincidence.  None, of course.
>
>As you have now read for the third time a minimal recitation of the type
>of physical evidence that exists, exists such that not one person need
>ever testify to it or admit complicity, you have the answer for the
>third time.

    Still no evidence of a causal link between the bombs and fire other
than post hoc ergo propter hoc, which is a fallacy. 


>       Or is this to be an exercise it hoping I get tired of repeating myself
>or happen to miss making one repetition so you can again claim that I
>have refused to discuss a subject?  

    You can repeat claims of physical evidence all you like, but it will
not make it true.

    I have done nothing but hold you to the same strict standards of
evidence you have applied elsewhere.  You have yet to meet them.  Sorry
about that.

    Or do you now consider it acceptable for me to recite as _physical
evidence_ a list of the documents such as the Vergasungskeller letter, the
references to a "Sonderkeller," the inventory sheet for showerheads in a
room showing no plans for shower plumbing, the morgue whose convenient
corpse chute was replaced by inconvenient trips down the stairs, the
letter from Topf talking about cyanide detectors for the Kremas, traces of
cyanide in the Kremas, the memo with plans to heat a supposed morgue with
waste heat from the crematory ovens (heat a morgue?!  but then, the
Germans like Limburger also), the letter to Rauff about gassing vans
_confirmed_ by Rauff in his deposition in Chile, ...

-- 
Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.








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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Supersedes: <4ru43f$jnd@access5.digex.net>
Date: 9 Jul 1996 13:18:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4ru49h$jte@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>  <4rt1tg$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4rt1tg$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:06:36 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>>As long as you don't provide it, you are also "proving" (by
>>an extension of your "revisionist arguments") that Dresden was
>>not bombed.
>
>I have pointed to the available physical evidence that does not need one
>word of testimony to support the event.  Apparently you can not read it.

   I have pointed out, among other things, that you have not presented a
chain of custody for this alleged evidence - none of which you have given
a reference for, of course - nor told us how we know the films are
properly captioned, etc.

    The Vergasungskeller memo needs to testimony to support the event.
Nor do the gassing van letters, one of which was confirmed by Rauff in his
Chilean deposition.  Yet you do not accept them.  Why the inconsistency? 

    Now go back and meet the same standards of evidence you demand for
that which you do not believe.
-- 
Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.

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