From kurtstele@aol.com Wed Sep  4 07:04:39 PDT 1996
Article: 62135 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Spielberg: how much has he given USA?
Date: 4 Sep 1996 01:30:38 -0400
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kuh-kuh-katie@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:

>In article <50g819$nio@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>*Personally, I've never been a big fan of Spielberg's movies -- I much
>*prefer the work of, say, the one-time Catholic seminarian Martin
>*Scorcese who, kind of incredibly, I think many would agree, has never,
>*ever been awarded an Academy Award by the Hollyvood power elite, while
>*Spielberg has how many?

don't be suprised k-k-katie, that Scorcese hasn't received an academy
award from Hollywood. It's hard bein' a goy in a jew's business you know 

>For best director, Steven Spielberg has won exactly one Academy Award.
>Only one film he has ever directed has been awarded best picture.

Shpielberg finally decided to go for the sure bet for an Academy Award: 
the holohoax

>Steven Spielberg had been snubbed by the academy for at least 15 years
>before "Schindler's List."  And his work on "Schindler's List" well
>deserved an Academy Award.  I do agree that Scorcese (is that how really
>how it's spelled... or is it Scorsese?) has also been snubbed, especially
>considering such brilliant achievements as "Taxi Driver,"  "Raging Bull,"
>and "The Last Temptation of Christ."  But Spielberg and Scorcese's styles
>are completely different and it's quite ridiculous and unnecessarily
>argumentative to compare them.  Both have been equally snubbed, Spielberg
>just happened to make an epic and truly important film (for which he took
>not one dime of the profits) with brilliant direction and technique, and
>Scorcese did not have a film up for nomination that year.

k-k-katie, Shpielberg received an academy award for spreading more Shoah
business. I could have directed a film and called it "Auschwitz" and as
long as it portrayed Germans eating dead jewish babies and such it would
have received at least an honorable mention at the very least.  No big
achievement there

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Wed Sep  4 07:04:41 PDT 1996
Article: 62205 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Spielberg: how much has he given USA?
Date: 4 Sep 1996 01:30:35 -0400
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kuh-kuh-kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:

>In article <502v26$pck@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>*In  kate@accessone.com (Kathleen
>*Mulhern) writes: 
>*
>*[tremendous amount of evasiveness snipped]
>*
>*  Look, the question which -- understandably -- you seem to be doing
>*your darnedest to avoid confronting is this: 

>Ummm... I've been confronting it and confronting it and still have seen
no
>proof of the grant on your part.  As stated numerous times by numerous
>other people: a) a $1 million grant costs about $.01 to every taxpayer, 

k-k-katie says $1 million -isn't- that much money.  k-k-katie, 100 million
is only $1.00 per person.  A billion is only $10 per person.  What's a
mere $10 dollars a person?  100 billion is only $1000 per person.  What is
$1000 compared to the righteousness of a Hollowcause?  A mere $1000
dollars!

k-k-katie always has the best arguments for why jews should get special
treatment from the goyim

>b)the inner city projects you seem so determined to protect yet will not
>answer my requests for volunteer work in these areas recieve tens of
>millions of taxpayer dollars each year,  

k-k-katie, why don't you along with the millionaire Shpielberg volunteer
for the Shoah Business Foundation and give the money to inner city kids? 
Why not do that? Who has more money?  Jews like Shpielberg and yourself?
or the inner city kids?   

k-k-katie, what other group besides jews can divest inner city kids of
money and not even draw criticism?  

No other group besides jews.

What other group is allotted money for establishing monuments and museums
and films for their own history?

No other group besides jews.

What other group can extract guilt shekels without even having to prove
financial need, and even when its promoter is himself a millionaire?

No other group besides jews.    

What other group can extract shekels for what is itself a tawdry hoax?

No other group besides jews.

What other group can extract shekels for an event that focuses primarily
on its own group?

No other group besides jews.

What other group can extract shekels for an event that derides and
slanders another group (Germans)?

No other group besides jews.

c) the Shoah Foundation is an educational resource project, and as typical
of educational resource projects, recieves a grant, and 

as if we need more hoax propaganda, as if everyone and his brother hasn't
heard the holohoax shpiel ad nauseum

d) Spielberg began the project, donated
>most of the proceeds from "Schindler's List" to begin it (the other
>portion of the proceeds went to other Holocaust memorial foundations),
>donated all of the proceeds from the TNT special "Survivors of the
>Holocaust" to the foundation, and has played no other active role other
>than founder and sponsor.  The people who actually run the project are
>responsible for fundraising.  This is also a project that serves the
>public good, 

public good my ass.  The only good it benefits is for the jews, in that it
spreads more holohorseshit around at taxpayer expense.  

But what's another million dollars anyway?  We already spend $2 million a
year to run the holohoax museum.  Must be nice to get special treatment
>from  those gullible goyim

>so the thought that the American taxpayer can spare about
>$.01 to help fund it is, I think, not overwhelming nor a rip-off.  Why
>don't YOU stop avoiding the issue (as you are want to do) and answer
these
>facts?

k-k-katie loves to miss the point.  No other group is receiving such
special treatment.  Now, why is it that jews receive $1 million for a film
project focusing primarily on their group, and has demonstrated no need
for public funds, while inner cities kids must do without despite showing
a public need, yet no other group receives such special treatment?  What
was your answer again?

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Wed Sep  4 10:48:48 PDT 1996
Article: 62248 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Spielberg: how much has he given USA?
Date: 4 Sep 1996 12:09:46 -0400
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:

>: k-k-katie says $1 million -isn't- that much money. 

>Look, Kurt!  Here's another piece of evidence for you, showing
>how deniers never call names.  Kurt?

>Oh, it's you.  Isn't that kind of silly, Kurt?  I mean, calling
>somebody names just days after you asserted that deniers never,
>ever, do that?

you find the above "name-calling"?  

or comparable to the kind the Holocausters do on this newsgroup?    

Kurt Stele



From kurtstele@aol.com Wed Sep  4 18:55:30 PDT 1996
Article: 62408 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 4 Sep 1996 18:36:54 -0400
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"D. Braun"  wrote:

>On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, D. Braun wrote:

>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:37:09 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: "D. Braun" 
>> To: Charles 
>> Cc: postmaster@u.washington.edu
>> Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
>>
>> Charles: make my day, loser.
>>
>> On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Charles wrote:
>>
>> >   Please see the below-quoted reply, by "dbraun" of your system, to
one
>> > of my Internet Usenet posts. This reply by "dbraun" of your system
>> > appeared in the alt.conspiracy and numerous other Usenet newsgroups.
>> >   In my view, your user "dbraun" has literally advocated my murder
via
>> > your system. (See "dbraun"'s statement that I am "roadkill
(proposed).
>> >   Please be aware that I now literally fear for my and my family's
>> > physical safety.
>> >   Immediately after sending this message to you, I will contact the
Los
>> > Angeles office of the Federal Burea of Investigation and will fill
out

>What a loser!  Now I know where you live!!


>> > a formal complaint regarding your user "dbraun"'s "proposal,", in an
>> > Internet newsgroup which may potentially be read by millions of
persons
>> > worldwide, that I become "roadkill".
>> >   I assure you that I take this matter EXTREMELY seriously and will
>> > pursue it with all appropriate legal authorities to the fullest
extent
>> > possible.
>> >
>> > You wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >On 1 Sep 1996, Charles wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> In  kate@accessone.com
>> > (Kathleen
>> > >> Mulhern) writes:
>> > >>
>> > >> ["same old, same old" considerately snipped]
>> > >>
>> > >>   Ms. "Mulhern"'s essential argument, based on her unrelenting
>> > refrain
>> > >> (obsession?) that the $1 million of U.S. taxpayer money that the
>> > >> reported Clinton fundraiser, multimillionaire Hollywood mogul
>> > Stephen
>> > >> Spielberg, was given amounts to just a penny-per-taxpayer (she
said
>> > >> $.25 in her earlier posts, but who's counting?) seems to be this:
>> > >>
>> > >>            "Anyone -- especially an extremely wealthy celebrity
>> > >>          -- who wants $1 million dollars to fund his/her pet
>> > >>          project is ENTITLED to it, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, NO
>> > >>          CRITICISMS ALLOWED from the very people from whom those
few
>> > >>          pennies are taken.
>> > >>            "After all, that $1 million only comes out to a mere
few
>> > >>          cents per American household.
>> > >>            "So shut up and hand over that spare change in your
>> > >>          pockets!"
>> > >>
>> > >>   Hey, you can smear me as a "kook," an "antisemite![tm]" or
>> > whatever
>> > >> you like all day long, but I think the attitude displayed in your
>> > >> argument is WRONG.
>> > >
>> > >Charles, you are not fooling anyone--- you are an anti-semite, and
>> > wanna
>> > >be propagandist in the anti-semite/white supremacist cause. Now you
>> > don't
>> > >even have the balls to own up? Remember your weeks long rant about
>> > Kosher
>> > >food, and how it was an unjust plot to tax "our" food? Your
arguments
>> > were
>> > >completely, utterly, refuted, and you kept on anyway.  Why is that?
>> > Why do
>> > >you only post things concerning the alleged wrongdoing of people
>> > because
>> > >they are Jews? Don't you know who you are? You are just a watered
down
>> > >version of Matt Gwer, renouned anti-semite, asshole, and roadkill
>> > >(proposed).
>> > >
>> > >		Dave Braun
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >>
>> > >>  . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
.
>> > . . . . . . . . . . . .
>> > >> "You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000
BMW
>> > ..
>> > >>  THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here
>> > from Mitch and Murray."
>> > >>  . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . .
.
>> > . . . . . . . . . . . .
>> > >>  . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!"
.
>> > . . . . . . . . . . .
>> > >>
>> > >>                                           "Glengarry Glen Ross"


Charles dares to question the $1 million in guilt shekels dipped out of
taxpayer funds for multi-millionaire Steven Shpielberg to generate more
holoschmaltz, or he dares to question the ongoing kosher food-tax racket,
and he gets called an "anti-semite."

This only demonstrates once again that whenever anyone dares to criticize,
or even question the actions of jews, he is likely to be called an
anti-semite on that basis -alone-. 

One may criticize Whites as a group all day long, but jews have a special
weapon they use to silence and slander those who question or criticize
them or their actions:  

"Anti-semite."

Since questioning jewish actions or criticizing jewish exploitation is the
definition of anti-semitism, then to our credit, honor, and integrity may
all of us strive to be counted among the "anti-semites" for doing so.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Thu Sep  5 15:42:09 PDT 1996
Article: 62688 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Jewish "Final Solution" for Whites
Date: 5 Sep 1996 16:43:15 -0400
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It is not an accident that everywhere in Nature birds of a feather flock
together. It seems humans (and primarily only White humans) are singular
in Nature in that they have evolved their reason to the point where they
can "choose" to disable their own racial instinct and natural xenophobia. 


However, the White peoples' evolutionary advancement of "reason" is
currently being used as a tool for their destruction, instead of for the
reason Nature evolved it in the first place:  to be used as a tool for
their survival and advancement.  

That is because Whites have fallen prey to false reason and guilt, to a
curious campaign of White collective suicide engaged in and promoted by a
group of clever aliens who sensed this weakness, and have cleverly used it
against Whites. This has occurred not so much as the result of a planned
conspiracy, although there has been much concerted and coordinated effort,
as it is the result of an instinctive and quasi-religious chauvanism which
unifies these people vis a vis their host.  This chauvanism likely has a
genetic component somewhere, even though there is considerable racial
heterogeneity in the group of people to which I refer.

Uncannily, this same group of people have behaved in precisely the same
exploitive and destructive way in every society in which they were left to
their own devices.  Their unity empowers them to effectively influence and
replace the White host population's values with its alien set of values:
cosmopolitanism, commerce, and materialism.  This eventually destroys the
host culture and sickens and radically disfigures the host society from
the way it naturally existed under its own organic values. 

Time and again, however, the White host populations have succeeded in
unfastening this destructive and parasitic host from their necks and
removing them from positions of power and dominance -- for the good of the
Whites' very survival. Invariably, an increase in health and prosperity of
the host population resulted.  In England, for example, after this removal
occurred there blossomed a cultural renaissance of unprecented
accomplishment, in which Shakespeare wrote his plays.  

The necessary precursor to these White revolts against jewish dominance
was the increase in racial feeling among the host people -- an upsurge in
racial pride which fueled the movement to flush out their alien dominators
>from  their positions of power.  

However, this same group of people is seeking to destroy the racial
feeling of its host population once and for all, through the means of
encouraging racial mixing along with promoting the invasion of White
homelands by swarms of faster-reproducing non-Whites.  Racial mixing and
numerical engulfment would result the ethnic eradication of Whites, and
its subsequent replacement with a mongrelized mixed-race mass.  

Thus the problem of White racial pride, which historically has always been
the bane of jews, will successfully be neutralized.  This is the jews'
final solution for the historical problem of White racial feeling: 
dissolution of Whites by miscegenation and outnumbering by non-Whites.  In
other words, the problem of White pride is being "solved" once and for all
by the genocide of Whites themselves.  

And it follows logically.  Whites, like any race and species of creature
that walks, instinctively possess a special feeling for their own kind and
a natural xenophobia for those of a different kind. This natural
xenophobia exists in all beings in order to accomplish the evolutionary
will towards lifeforms of increasingly greater speciation by segregation. 
You can no more eradicate this natural affinity for one's own than you can
eliminate a creature's will to respire.  Since this instinct can not be
completely rooted out through propaganda, there is no way to eliminate
save through eliminating the -people- themselves.  This is being done by
the dual forces of miscegenation and outbreeding by non-Whites in former
White homelands.  In this way Whites are being "phased" out.    

By flooding White former homelands with non-Whites and effecting White
miscegenation, the problem of White racial feeling will effectively solved
for all-time by dissolution.  Afterwards, presumably jews can carry on
their traditional position of dominance and control of the society, but
for the first time there will be no opposition, as the mongrelized
population cannot assert racial pride, because by definition it can have
none.  Without a deep sense of racial pride, the mulatto population will
not be able to oppose or overthrow jewish rule.

This group of people to which I refer has used its media and money power
to label the natural and healthy racial instinct within all people as
"racism" and has declared that specifically "White racism" is the root of
nearly all evil in the world.  This has resulted in White people feeling
guilty for a natural urge within them, much like certain Christian sects
made their adherrent feel "guilty" for the urge of sex.  

Guilt is an excellent weapon for controlling Whites collectively. Whites
demonstrate a weakness for guilt not present in other peoples.  The group
of people to which I refer to, along with peoples of other races, have
sensed this weakness and exploited it in many ways.  They have succeeded
in making many Whites feel guilty for possessing societies of higher
civilizational and technological advancement than non-Whites, and higher
standards of living.  They use White guilt to convince Whites "you owe
us."

The most dramatic success the group of people I refer to have achieved in
the effort to make Whites feel guilty is the "Holocaust" tale.  This tale
of endless embellishment and little evidence is their greatest weapon to
dissuade Whites from opposing their ongoing racial dissolution.  Every
White effort to organize themselves in uncompromising opposition to is
automatically identified as a form of incipient nazism and thereby
discredited. "Segregation is what the nazis wanted" this group of people
to which I refer to, crows.  "Racial purity is a nazi ideal" they chant. 
"If you want to have a White society, then the next thing you'll want to
do is shove jews into ovens like the nazis did" they yammer.  

Through their Holocaust campaign, they have succeeding in convincing
Whites that it is wicked to want to preserve one's own kind, and to to do
whatever is necessary to preserve it.  However, the people to which I
refer to know fully well that racism is not only not wicked, but it is the
only force that allows a people to survive.  They know that any people who
do not possess a healthy affinity for their own kind will be dissolved and
eradicated.  They know that a homeland is the very basis for biological
survival and any people without an exclusive homeland, protected by Whites
and for Whites, will not be able to survive.  

They know that "racism" is not only healthy, but essential for a people's
survival.  They only what -us- to believe that it is evil, because that
illusion furthers their effort to destroy the threat of White racial
feelings. 

The people to which I refer to have demonstrated in the conduct of their
nation Israel, that survival in the human domain, as everywhere else in
Nature, involves using force to ensure one's existence.  Although they are
as brutal as any other in history, if not more, in obtaining land for
their people, they want to make Whites feel guilty for the same behavior
-- because this suits their ends, of course. In other words, the people to
which I refer to are hypocrites of a kind which at times defies
comprehension, but they are clever enough, and powerful enough, to get
away with it unchallenged.

In addition to the primary purpose being served by the jewish effort
towards White dissolution, jewish dominance, there is also exists another
motivation: a conscious or unconscious combination of distrust, envy, and
resentment towards Whites.  

Jews traditionally have always been looked upon as suspect in White
societies and esthetically undesirable.  Also, many Jews today have
obtained White genes such as blue eyes, there still exists the prominent
jewish prototype of dark hair, swarthy features, koala eyes, and a large
hooked nose.  This made the jews stand out among his host societies,
especially in the Nordic countries of Northern Europe.  Today, thousands
of jews each year pay to camouflage their own feature to look like
"Aryans" by surgically modifying their noses to the European standard of
beauty. In early Europe, Jews obtained a universal reputation for
shrewdness in commerce, and as a result was always viewed as a sinister
figure in Old European society.  Reports of jewish incidents of defrauding
citizens in every country they inhabited earned them the general
reputation of shysters.  Furthermore, they added next to nothing to the
European masters of art and music.  In short, jews have historically been
distrusted, shunned, and marginalized in European civilization from the
very beginning.  It is likely that there exists an element of resentment
and envy, if not revenge, in the jewish effort to dissolve the White race.

I would like to emphasize again, that this jewish promotion of White
racial dissolution is not so much the result of a planned conspiracy as it
the result of an organic, instinctive, process.  Jews are naturally and
rightfully threatened by the racial feelings of their White host
populations.  For the first time in history, however, White homelands are
being overwhelmed by non-Whites and racial-mixing is being encouraged by a
highly effective and sophisticated media, and it appears jews are
effectively, even if instinctively, dealing with the problem White racial
feeling, which has always been their bane.   
Many Whites who begin to realize this phenomenon are fooled by specious
counterarguments which maintain that there is no planned conspiracy by
jews against Whites therefore the jewish efforts toward White racial
dissolution do not exist. This argument is fallacious in that it never
-was- a planned conspiracy in the traditional sense but rather the result
of natural instincts and cultural norms and the cultivated unity of a
single people, inculcated and reified over hundreds, if not thousands, of
years.  

Also advantageous to this group of people is the highly popular myth this
group has succeeded in popularizing, which maintains that "race" does not
exist. Along with distracting Whites from any awareness of their existence
as a people and any concern for their people's ongoing eradication, this
myth serves to disarm Whites from believing that there exists instincts
which can serve as the primary means for group of people to unconsciously
and synergistically work in tandem to dominate and subvert their society
-- because of which there is not much need for organized conspiracy. 

The analogy of the termite here is useful.  A group of termites do not
"conspire" to destroy a building -- they do it naturally.  Their unity
originates -within- them, far more than without.     

I believe Whites who care about their race can reverse this trend.  The
first step is consciousness of its existence and the development of the
will to survive against it -- primarily through an organizational
strategy.  Note that "survival" here means survival in the classic sense,
precisely as found in Nature, where there are no rules, and the final
standard of fitness is whether or not one's kind does survive. It is a
retrospective evaluation, and will be made in the case of Whites if and
after they can deal with and emerge from the current invasion of their
former homelands by non-Whites. Of paramount importance to the success of
this strategy is the availability of mass media in both its alternative
and eventually its mainstream forms for the purposes of racializing,
mobilizing, and unifying White people, and recruiting members into the
organization and special units thereof.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Thu Sep  5 15:42:10 PDT 1996
Article: 62712 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 5 Sep 1996 16:35:23 -0400
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bodhi@sattva.org (Bodhisattva) wrote:

>In article <50l0a6$75f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>> and he gets called an "anti-semite."

>Oh, boo-hoo.  Stop your whining, puss.  For one thing, this person is not
>"just" questioning the validity of the things you mention.  He is doing
it
>with a definite - yes, anti-Semitic" - agenda.  

One can criticize disparage Whites all day long and discuss "the evil of
white racism" and "indian killing" and make movies about it. 

But when when one criticizes the jewish butchery of civilians at Qana, or
the deliberate jewish massacre of over a hundred U.S. servicemen on the
U.S.S. Liberty, or the "granting" of a million more dollars in U.S. tax
dollars to multi-millionaire Shpielberg to make generate more holocrap,
the person is met with at least one or more of the following:

a)  he is accused of having "an anti-semitic agenda"  
b)  he is met with a flurry of suspicion:  "are you sure those things
-actually- happened?"  
c)  he is told to "stop whining"  
d)  he is given some half-assed argument that "it's only a $.10 a person"
to try to rationalize the ongoing special treatment continually given to
jews at our expense.

Jews self-indulgently whine and whine to their heart's content, and then
some, about a Hoax to the tune of millions of U.S. tax dollars each year,
extracted -without- our consent only because of the political and money
power of jews. No other group is afforded such special treatment.  Jewish
holocausters "whine" and "whine" at our expense -- and at our increasing
resentment at their flagrant hypocrisy.

But we are supposed to accept this perpetual whining and also expected to
believe the ridiculous fantasies of the holohoax, in all of its absurd
glory and scatalogical embellishments, "on faith" and if do not we will be
attacked with the slander of "anti-semite" (or thrown in jail or fined a
large sum, if in Europe).

Of course noone would ever accuse jewish holocausters of having an
"anti-German agenda" or jewish media bosses who pump anti-White propaganda
through films, television, and the press to have an "anti-White agenda." 

Why don't you tell jews to stop whining.  At least my whining isn't
involuntarily sucking millions of dollars a year in guilt-shekels off the
unwittingly public to generate a never-ending flow of holocaust bull.

>He is doing it with the
>intent to defame and discredit Jews.  If you cannot admit this, it only
>shows your lack of moral fiber and intellect.  You have already shown a
>great lack of both by invoking this same old, silly, pussy-ass cracker,
>whiny, fallacious claim.  

Questioning the continued special treatment of jews or questioning the
holocaust is an intent to "defame" (and in some places is punished with
jail). 

Criticizing Germans will earn you a million dollars in U.S. taxpayer money
(even if you are -already- a multi-millionaire) to generate more of the
same.

I think we may be on to something here.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep  6 07:23:14 PDT 1996
Article: 62797 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Julius Streicher and the Big Lie Technique
Date: 4 Sep 1996 16:39:35 -0400
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Yes, Chuck - Streicher was one revolting swine indeed. I recall 
>that one short entry in Goebbels' early diary reads "... and then 
>Streicher spoke. Like a pig". Can you imagine someone so revolting
>so as to make Goebbels, himself an arch-swine, to refer to him as 
>a "pig"?

>I wonder if the last sound he made, when dangling from the
>rope, was a little pig squeal.


>-Danny Keren.

Julius Streicher was a pornographer, so the Holocausters tell us.

Once again, the holocausters make wild slanderous allegations they cannot
verify. 

Is not the entire Holohoax merely one elaborate unsubstantiated slander,
in the same vein?  An unsubstantiated slanderous hoax.

It is indeed ironic, not to mention hypocritical, to see jews denounce
Streicher for being a pornographer.  Jews dominate the porno industry as
they do every other aspect of the motion picture industry.  They are
especially thick in the porno industry though.

Where is the proof Streicher was a pornographer in the way jewish
pornographers are?  

But you know what a famous man once said about the Proponents of the big
Lie Technique: "they" always blame others falsely for the very things they
do actually.

Streicher wasn't hung because he was a pornographer.  He was hung for the
same reason Rosenberg was hung:  for his ideas.  

That is the sort of people the holocausters are:  they want to punish
people for their ideas.  Orwell called it "thoughtcrime." In the dark ages
they called it "heresy."  

That is why the holocausters have made it a crime to question the
Holocaust in Germany:  they don't want people to be allowed to question or
discuss the patent absurdities of the Holohoax theory.  They are trying to
enforce their orthodoxy as Holy Writ.  

The jewish holocausters are the real and proto-thought police.  They are
the holonazi.  They're playing a dangerous game, though.  Whenever free
inquiry is suppressed and oppressed by tyrants like the jewish
holocausters, there is always a bottlenecking of resistance which builds
up. 

Good luck dealing with it, holonazi.  I can't wait until it builds to the
breaking point. There are rumblings here and there.  The foundation
creaks, the superstructure shifts.  

I can't wait.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep  6 18:43:18 PDT 1996
Article: 63007 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE CLONE COMA
Date: 6 Sep 1996 14:10:39 -0400
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>In article <322E0F53.167E@itsa.ucsf.edu>
<50ndrr$19n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>    kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>
>> In a protracted, war scenario, even one involving an underground
>> resistance, no motley racially-mixed hodge podge can prevail for long
over
>> a unified, dedicated, force that is racially homogenous, despite
numerical
>> superiority. 

>Strangely enough, the 'racially pure' Nazis got their
> butts soundly kicked by many groups the Nazis considered
> untermenschen ( ahem, the Soviet forces, plus black and asian
> soldiers in the US army. )

That is correct.  A nation the size of Texas was beset by the entire White
world. But it should be known that the SS and German forces had the
highest kill ratios of any fighting force in WWII and were rated by
several American war historians as the finest soldiers in the conflict. 
Also, it is becoming increasingly noted that the Americans fared
relatively poor in comparison.  Also, the Soviet forces were predominantly
Caucasian, virtually all Caucasian in its leadership, despite the Soviet
Mongol element.  The U.S. forces were predominantly White also.  

Once again, it was the White man who rose against his brother to destroy
himself -- for jewish interest. The Americans were not in the slightest
danger of losing their freedom to the Germans.  The war was fought because
the Nazi regime rejected the jews, and specifically the German economy had
opted out of international finance, and this move stood to create a domino
effect would have broken the grip of international finance over America
and the countries of Europe. Germany had to be crushed for this immediate
reason, but primarily because Germany stood for the advancement of the
White race and the determination to reject jewish internationalism and
cosmopolitanism, and jewish communism, which all of their race-mixing and
dysgenic intentions.

>Need I mention the black units that fought in WWI or the civil war..

The blacks fared woefully poor.  The black units in the Civil War, WWI and
WII, and Korea had the highest rates of attrition and abandonment, despite
the myths of the jewish silver screen. Several White generals have
commented this century on the general inability of blacks to perform well,
or even withstand for an extended period, a combat situation.

>> It is not single in its will. It cannot achieve final victory the
>> racially homogenous force because of its inherent racial divisions,
both
>> collectively and individually, and its own sense of inferiority. A
>> racially-mixed fighting force is always inferior in intelligence,
>> capability, and unity to a racially homogenous (White or Asian) one,
>> though it be smaller in number.  

>Then what are you white-power rangers sitting on your pimply
> butts for?  If a multi-ethnic force is so easy to defeat, 
> go for it!

The System is as yet too powerful, despite its increasing
multiculturalism, precisely because the White man still dominates its
higher administration.  The System's derives its power -only- from the
White man's technology and intelligence. 

Do you actually think this technologically advanced System could last long
under Black or mulatto control?  (You probably do, because you believe in
the Holocaust Tale). 

That would be a joke.  

The System is yet strong, but it weakens increasingly the more multiracial
it gets, month by month, year by year.  It weakens further as Whites of
specialized capability become increasingly conscious of their race's
dissolution and genocide and of the unworkability and insanity of the
multiracial society.  It weakens further from the populace's increasingly
resents a government that is deliberately allowing the nation to be
invaded by floods of non-Whites of every shade.  It weakens further due to
increasing non-White crime which hectors and terrorizes Whites in every
major city and increasingly in the suburbs, where sections that were once
White and safe, are now non-White and crime-filled. 

It weakens further as more and more Whites awaken to the fact that the
current System not only has no responsibility for preserving them as a
people, but that the System itself is dedicated to their eradication.  It
weakens further as Whites are forced to foot the bill for a bloated
bureaucracy of social programs that grant to non-Whites free benefits
which hard-working Whites are denied, and funds the high reproduction rate
of low-intelligent recidivist, non-White populations.  It weakens futher
as the entire mixed-race economically flagging, superstructure's standard
of living decreases year by year, despite the paper shuffling tricks, the
fiddling with interest rates, and the "balancing of the budget" hoax.  It
weakens further as Whites awaken to the fact that their children and their
children's children stand to inherit a society of danger, squalor, drugs,
disease, and hatred towards them for who they are; it weakens further as
Whites come to realize that unless they assert themselves as a people
their children have no future in tomorrow's America.

The System weakens year by year as American industry is deliberately
shipped abroad as a part of a planned program to "globalize" the world and
bring American workers into competition with low-wage Mexicans and
Chinese, phasing out entire industries and displacing thousands of
Americans each year into low-wage entry level jobs.  It weakens year by
year, as the System places stricter gun laws on the books each year,
evincing a lack of concern for the private citizen's need to protect
himself against marauding criminals, which are usually non-White,
affirming the message in mind of the Whites that the government is no
friend, but perhaps the opposite.  The System weakens every day as a
government permitted its agent to blast the upper half of a woman's head
clean off, while she held her child, and then promoted the gunmen and
decorated his cohorts.  Or when the government deliberately murders a
large group of religionists, including women and children, because the
government was getting "impatient" with them.  

The System weakens further day by day as the people's faith in their
"Justice (sic) System" is made a travesty by a black who butchers two
people and then walks free, and by other instances which occur daily in
our courts of law. The System weakens further every day as Democracy is
increasingly exposed as the sham that it is -- and voter indifference is
consequently high.  The System weakens further every day as it cannot
fulfill the needs of the various unhappy peoples which are unnaturally
shoved together into it.  The System weakens further every day as Whites
are denied the healthy feeling of community they need as a people, in a
land in which their culture is savagely destroyed, their community
eradicated and replaced with an alien, foreign, chaos.  The System weakens
further every day as the natural forces of ethnic magneticism and
balkanization, which cannot be diminished over time but only strength over
time, literally begin to rip the superficial entity known as "the United
States of America" apart in several directions.  

The System weakens further day by day as peoples of all color, but
especially Whites, increasingly lose faith in it.  The System weakens
further as there can be little loyalty to a faceless, nameless, race-less,
nation-less artificial "System," even among the growing hordes of people
who rely on it for their status or upkeep. The System weakens further day
by day because it is premised on the Lie of Racial Equality, and its
underlying principles proceed in vain from an initial fallacy. The System
weakens because Whites themselves, who are the oil which greases the
eroding cogs of this vast, multiracial bureaucratic monstrosity, are being
weakened by an alien set of values that is perpetually pumped into it by
the jewish media.  The System weakens as Whites increasingly realize their
unparalleled heritage of creativity and advancement and that to mix their
genes with non-White humanoids would be to destroy their gene pool, their
genius, to annihilate the intricate work of evolution spanning eons, and
to set back natural evolution hundreds of thousands of years.

Modestly speaking, I would say the System does not snowball's chance in
hell of continuing indefinitely.  

There will be White people, concerned for their precious and unsurpassed
gene pool and heritage, as well as for the simple future of their
children, and for future generations, who will be willing to do whatever
is necessary to help bring down a decaying System that is destroying them.
 The time is not now, but the time will come.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep  7 09:22:59 PDT 1996
Article: 63121 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More "Eyewitness Testimony" Won't Help Holocaust
Date: 5 Sep 1996 16:36:40 -0400
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp 
>[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant,
>SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in
>his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert
>Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof
>[Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the
>plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated.  We were to
>keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have
>to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death penalty...

>The extermination camp was made up of the so-called "castle" and the
>camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the
>edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had
>been transported by lorry or railway were first brought...

>When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando
>addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer 
>Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from
>Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They
>explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and
>deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then
>went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this
>they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard
>where the so-called "gas-van" was parked. The back door of the van
>would be open. The Jews were made to get inside the van. This job was
>done by three Poles, who I believe were sentenced to death. The Poles
>hit the Jews with whips if they did not get into the gas vans fast
>enough. When all the Jews were inside the door was bolted. The driver
>then switched on the engine, crawled under the van and connected a
>pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the van. The exhaust fumes now
>poured into the inside of the truck so that the people inside were
>suffocated...

>


>-Danny Keren.

More eyewitness testimony.  

As if the evidentiary deficiencies of the Holocaust Tale could be
rehabilitated with something so inherently unreliable as "eyewitness"
testimony.

At best, the testimony serves only to contradict that of numerous German
officers, leaving hopeless inconsistency that cannot be resolved by any
resort to -more- eyewitness testimony.

More eyewitness testimony isn't going to help the Holocaust.  Only the
discovery of a huge paper trail (and I mean HUGE) could possibly bail out
Holohoax at this point.

But tomorrow you just might hear this "mysterious" paper trail is suddenly
"discovered."  I wouldn't put anything past the hoaxsters.  

At that point, the hoaxsters will have the dubious task of tracing the
origins of this paper trail and why this huge file was not found with all
the others, where it would have been found normally.

But no doubt, they will have another anomalous theory they will foist upon
us, to explain why the "normal and likely" in fact did not happen, and
demand that we buy into it.  I suppose they figure if we will believe in
"gas chamber-showers done with insecticide" and "crematoria as ovens" we
will buy anything.  

And they will "defend" the latest theory with the same old tricks: 
attacking and imprisoning revisionists, slandering questioners, and
silencing other viewpoints using jewish money-power to cancel book
contracts and waging economic boycotts to close down any newspaper or
organization that dares speak out.

I wager Schmalzemueller was paid a mere $500 to do the above:

do I hear a $1000? 

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:44 PDT 1996
Article: 63217 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 6 Sep 1996 05:12:06 -0400
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:

># or the deliberate jewish massacre of over a hundred U.S.
># servicemen on the U.S.S. Liberty,

>34, not "over a hundred". It is simply amazing that these
>nazi-boys will *always* lie.

Here's a holocauster complaining about, of all things, numerical
exagerations.  

34 dead, 171 casualties.  A massacre all the same.  

Where is the U.S.S. Liberty monument in Washington D.C.?  Where is the
Shpielberg films about it?  

Oh I forgot. The only people who possess the privilege of being
memorialized are Jews.  

If only those 34 had been Jews:  then they would have probably a holiday
dedicated to them and the U.S.S. Liberty would be a household word.  

Then the jews would harp, whine, and moan about the "heroes of the U.S.S.
Liberty. Killed in cold blood.  So much hatred."  And so on.

>And it was a tragic error that happened during war time,
>just like the cases of deaths resulting from "friendly fire"
>in the Gulf War, and numerous other cases during wars.

ah yes.  "A tragic error."  Just like the Israeli butchering of
Palestinians at Qana was an accident.  It was all a big accident.  One
"accident" after another.  Jews don't ever do anything bad.  They just
have "accidents."  

Keren, that might work on the rest of the gullible goyim, but some of us
don't buy that baloney anymore than we buy the hokey gas-chambers, the
"geese," the missing ashes, or the missing "extermination orders" of the
Holocaust Lie.  

># he is accused of having "an anti-semitic agenda"

>You are obviously a piece of Nazi trash, as your quote
>below proves.

calling people "nazi" and "anti-semitic" because they question or
criticize jewish atrocities or exploitation isn't going to make these
events any less obvious.  

Kurt Stele

>-Danny Keren.

> ----
>For a summary of the "revisionist" position, look at what
>Nazi propagandist and "revisionist", Kurt Stele, wrote:

> From:         kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
> Message-Id:   <4ut4ht$p8i@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

># The Holocaust is a funny thing..
># When you hear about it, you wish it never happened..
># When you discover it's a hoax ya kind of wish it did!
># Kurt Stele




From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:45 PDT 1996
Article: 63265 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Milton Kleim
Date: 7 Sep 1996 18:05:15 -0400
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itta@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B. James) wrote:

>In <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
>nobody@cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald) writes: 
>>

>>  The eight male members present drew straws, and three of us,
>including
>>me, ended up on the execution squad. When Powell realized that he was
>>going to be killed, he tried to make a break. We tied his hands and
>feet, and
>>then we had to gag him when he began shouting. We drove him to a
>wooded
>>area off the highway about 10 miles south of Washington, shot him, and
>>buried him.
>>
>>The Turner Diaries
>>Chapter Seven
>>

>gee....this is a sad,sad insight into the mentality of those fighting
>for a perverted, self destructive, sickening cause.....but
>ummmm.....why did you cross post it to alt.skinheads? please explain
>this to me.....it makes no sense what so ever....ummmm.......you scare
>me....Mom!...

>Bullseye
>Baltimore trad skin for life

the cause certainly couldn't be any less perverted, self-destructive or
sickening that the White race allowing itself to commit suicide without
even so much as a fight

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:46 PDT 1996
Article: 63295 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 7 Sep 1996 18:06:22 -0400
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <500af3$n0d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:


>> Your response was indeed both "flipped-out" and "knee-jerk."  Joebuck's
>> point was that the Holohoax museum in Washington D.C. focues primarily
on
>> jews.  You jumped down his throat calling him a liar for that. Then you
>> attempt to refute his point by quoting from the mission statement.  The
>> mission statement doesn't override the fact that the Holocaust museum
>> focuses primarily on jews, even though supposedly 6 million non-jews
died.
>> The mission statement is not what impresses people but the museum at
>> large.  And that museum focuses primarily on jews 

>Mr. "Stele,"
> 
>The Museum focuses primarily on the VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST.
> 
>How many times does this have to be explained to you?

And how many does it have to be explained to you that the museum focuses
primarily on jews in both its presentations and exhibits, despite the
whatever footnote the Holocaust museum gives to dead goyim in its mission
statement
 
>By the way, Mr. "Stele," have you BEEN to the Museum?
> 
>Sara

Yes I have.  It was one of the tackiest, most self-indulgent
extravanganzas I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing. 

It was a Holocauster's wet-dream in there.  

My dominant thought throughout my tour was "all this elaborate show, all
dedicated, and built, at millions of dollars in taxpayer expense -- all
for a Lie."  

And everywhere inside the focus was (of course) primarily on jews.

Kurt Stele

>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep  7 18:06:47 PDT 1996
Article: 63303 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 7 Sep 1996 04:02:32 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <50qie8$6ds@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) writes:
>>From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
>>Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
>>Date: 6 Sep 1996 21:16:56 -0400

>>Annie Alpert  wrote:

>>>For the record, the USS Liberty was engaged in spyiny against our ally
>>>(whether you like to admit it or not).  The Liberty was a spy ship. 
>>>Israel is our ally.  Read it and weep.  

>>Ah yes.  Here is a jewish holocauster justifying the killing of 34 men
for
>>spying on "our ally" Israel.  

>Ah.  So you're saying that it's a safe thing to take a ship -- a spy
ship, 
>no less -- into a war zone?  

>Fascinating theory. 

>Stupid, but fascinating.  

ah yes.  Another jewish holocauster justifying the deliberate murdering of
34 American servicemen on the U.S.S. Liberty by Israelis.  

"It was unsafe" he says.

Murdering 34 American servicemen is OK to Joel Rosenberg.  It was
justified.  

If it is OK for Israelis to murder American servicemen to further Israeli
interests, then it certainly was OK for the nazis to remove Jews to
further theirs.  The only difference is that the nazis were a lot nicer.

It's OK to murder American servicemen but it's bad to criticize jews or
question the Holocaust.

Jews never do anything bad.  If they do, it's always somebody else's
fault.

If anything happens to Jews, even so much as criticism, then it is "a
deliberate intent to defame," they moan.  "Calculated anti-semitism." 
"Deliberate hatred."

Yet Jews can butcher American servicemen and Palestinians with impunity,
and claim "it was their fault, not ours," and "it was an accident."  

Jews almost never take responsibility for their atrocities, choosing
instead to blame the victims themselves; yet jews blame the German people
as a whole for a fabricated Holocaust.

some of us gullible goyim are starting to see the trend here; it's taken
us years but we're finally starting to see the trend

Kurt Stele



From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep  8 08:01:07 PDT 1996
Article: 63352 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE CLONE COMA
Date: 5 Sep 1996 16:40:27 -0400
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>william c anderson wrote:
>> 
>> Hawkman Harold (aviary@pigeon.com) wrote:
> 
>> : Diversity needs to be done away with. And it will. Because it's us or
you.
>> : And, man, guess what? It's us. Sorry.
>> 
>> Who's this "us," Harold?  You got a rat in your pocket?
>> 
>> I got knews for you, son--the vast majority of white people think
>> you and your ilk are either laughable buffoons, twisted sickos, or
>> both.  Please don't attempt to speak for people you don't know.

Please observe the same.  You claim the vast majority of white people
think that protecting their valuable genetic pool and race from genocide
by miscegenation and numerical displacement is "laughable buffoonery" and
"twisted."  Perhaps YOU do not realize the extent to which you fail to
speak for whites as a group. To be sure, your opinion is becoming
increasingly abandoned as Whites awaken in greater numbers to the reality
and inevitability of their race's dissolution, as it is becoming too
painfully obvious to ignore.

>And despite what the white power rangers think, many of these 
> pro-diversity whites are NOT pansies afraid of fighting.

>Sure fellas, go right ahead and start a revolution or 'race war.' 
> We'll give you a decent burial, and the survivors will have
> a day in court.

It would be an honor to die for one's people.  There could be no more
useful way to die.  That is what we and all others in Nature exist for: to
defend, protect, and advance the species.  That is our purpose in Nature:
to further the species along its unique evolutionary path which Nature
alloted it.

Protecting and dying for one's kind is what we are here for.  

>For many years i was a pacifist, and even now there are very, very 
> few wars i would actually consider enough of a threat that i'd actually 
> consider it worth fighting. If the white power rangers and their ilk 
> actually started a race war, i'd be first in line with a rifle to shoot 
> them dead.  And i know i'm not alone, as I've yet to meet someone who
> doesn't consider the vision of these milita/white power groups to be
> anything short of a twisted nightmare.

A man who possesses no loyalty to his greater family, his kith, to his
ancestors, to his race, to his species, is a man without honor or
significance. He has abnegated his natural role and purpose.  He is a
shadow of a man, who has voluntarily chosen to disavow responsibility for
his people's future, for the racial quality of future generations.  He has
revoked membership his own kind, has disavowed that which he biologically
is, that which Nature has made him. He has revoked the very Purpose for
his existence -- the furtherance his own.  He has dropped the torch handed
to him by his ancestors and has renounced and desecrated their strugle. If
his race survives, his descendants will rightly despise and curse him for
his abominable ineptitude and dishonor. 

In a protracted, war scenario, even one involving an underground
resistance, no motley racially-mixed hodge podge can prevail for long over
a unified, dedicated, force that is racially homogenous, despite numerical
superiority. The motley force possesses a sense of racial inadequacy vis a
vis the racially-homogenous force, and possesses conflicting racial voices
within it, within its force at large, and within its racially-mixed
members. It is not single in its will. It cannot achieve final victory the
racially homogenous force because of its inherent racial divisions, both
collectively and individually, and its own sense of inferiority. A
racially-mixed fighting force is always inferior in intelligence,
capability, and unity to a racially homogenous (White or Asian) one,
though it be smaller in number.  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep  8 08:01:07 PDT 1996
Article: 63393 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 7 Sep 1996 18:03:25 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <50ra6o$fv9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) writes:

>>ah yes.  Another jewish holocauster justifying the deliberate murdering
of
>>34 American servicemen on the U.S.S. Liberty by Israelis.  

>And here's Kurt Stele, saying that it's supposed to be safe for an
unarmed spy 
>ship to sail into a war zone.  Not only is it supposed to be safe now,
but it 
>was supposed to have been safe almost thirty years ago, and that the
whole 
>Jewish community should hang its head in collective guilt because it
wasn't 
>safe.

>Pfui.  

>Let me put it this way, Kurt:  your mother swims after troop ships.  Your

>sister's lips go in and out with the tide.  

I like Joel.  He and I agree on certain things.

I say we use Joel Rosenberg's rationale:

"Even if the Holohoax did happen it was unsafe for Jews to be in German
society.  After all, their interests were at odds with the German people. 
What is more, the alleged Holohoax occurred during WWII.  It was a world
war. Certainly jews were in the zone of danger, being in Europe. 
Therefore any and all atrocities committed on them under Holocaust Tale,
had they occurred, would have been justified."  

I love it.  It plays like a symphony.

Jews don't want their people to "hang its head in collective guilt" over
having butchering Americans and Palestinians.  Yet jews want the German
people to "hang its head in collective guilt" over hoax-atrocities
committed "during wartime."  Come now, Joel: I thought you said it's OK to
commit atrocities during wartime, if done in a war zone?  Your mother
swimming and your sister's lips and all that.

I like your analogy.

I'm glad that you, like myself, find that Germans -aren't- collectively
responsible, despite what your ilk holds.  

But now that you agree, do ya think you could convince your people to give
back just a few of those billions in guilt-shekels jews have wrongly
extracted from German and American goyim based on "collective guilt"? 
After all, if it's in wartime and they were in the zone of danger, then
the hoax-German atrocities would have been OK, even if they had been true.

Sometimes jewish hypocrisy bites itself in the butt.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep  8 17:23:55 PDT 1996
Article: 63575 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "THE BEST OF THE HOLOCAUST" (post here)
Date: 8 Sep 1996 14:49:52 -0400
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Hello revisionists and revisionism-adherents:

We know that the Holocaust Tale is nothing more than a shabby house of
cards founded on the quicksand of eyewitness testimony. The only thing
propping it up is jewish money-power, the jewish media, and the
thoughtcrime laws which have been enacted to prevent people from
questioning the Holocaust and discovering its falsity.  Verily, anything
which requires a law to prevent people from questioning it is likely false
to begin with.

Throughout our acquaintance with the Sacred Fantasy, we have all
encountered several extraordinarily absurd idiocies of the Holocaust Tale,
and at times have blanched at the sheer impertinence of the Fable. This
thread is dedicated to the most ludicrous, the zaniest, the ugliest, the
best in jewish melodrama, the creme de la creme in Broadway schmaltz, the
most self-indulgent, the cheesiest, the stupidest, the goofiest Holocaust
canards one has -ever- heard.

Might I begin with the following two.  

Rrrrrrrroll em!

"klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>(from URL:http://www.mtsu.edu/%7Ebaustin/euthan.html)

>The T-4 Euthanasia Program

>To `render harmless' the Polish intelligensia, political and
>religious leaders, Jews, and anyone else who might, theoretically,
>rally an opposition, Heydrich established SS Einsatzgruppen (action
>groups). The Einsatzgruppen rampaged over the land, terrorizing and
>killing. Selections for execution were haphazard. Sometimes the
>commandos erred and included ethnic Germans whom they mistook for
>Jews. Shootings were carried out publicly to heighten the climate of
>fear. A Werhmacht intelligence officer reported: `Arrests were almost
>always accompanied by looting. Evacuations were carried out and blocks
>of houses were cleared at random, the inhabitants loaded into lorries
>at night, then taken to concentration camps. Actions against the Jews
>were carried out with the most serious excesses. A number of Jews were
>driven into a synagogue, where they had to crawl, singing, between the
>benches. Forced to take down their trousers, they were continously
>whipped by the SS men on their bare behinds. A Jew who out of fright
>dirtied himself was forced to smear the excrement onto the faces of
>the other Jews."

Note how the author's scatalogical projections are treated as sober,
historical fact. This strange folly occurs as the result of maintaining as
unquestionable the "eyewitness testimony" upon which the entire Holocaust
is based.

Here is another, in my top ten, and very close to my heart. 

>From  "Sobibor!":

>"The death camps worked at full capacity day and night without any
>interruption. When the hideous screaming of the suffocating was heard
>from the "Sanitary Center", the Germans let loose a herd of geese they
>had especially bread for this purpose. The noise that the geese started
>deafened the voices of the suffocating in the gas chambers."

Is the Holocaust bullshit or what.

Kurt Stele



From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep  9 08:20:06 PDT 1996
Article: 63705 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Joel Rosenberg's "Yiddish" Debating-Style
Date: 9 Sep 1996 00:13:00 -0400
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ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) wrote:

>joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>>It's called "lying" and it's part of "not having any integrity", and I'm
sure 
>>you're familiar with that, being George J. Lehmann and all.  
>>
>>Get it?
>>
>>I didn't think so.

>Oh, I believe I compehend it sufficiently:

>That you're a sink-hole of hatred,
>That the anti-Semite who coined the word "kike" had your MO in mind.
>That following the dicta of the High Priestess, the issues are never
>          to be addressed, only insults proffered in lieu of argument.
>That anything you CAN accuse one of, you WILL accuse one of.
>That "debating" with you isn't like trying to nail a glob of jelly;
>          it's like trying to nail a glob of fecal material.
>And that having to stand down-wind from you could be deemed a
>         "cruel and unusual punishment."

>That I understand quite well!  U.M.-GJL.


George, you are observing the "Yiddish style" of debate used by Joel
Rosenberg and others.  You have captured this phenomenon quite
descriptively.  There is little one could add.  However here is a similar
description of it by a very famous man:  

"The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic.  

"First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary and then, when
their was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid.  If all
this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged,
they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you
accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and
then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly
what you were talking about.  

"Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a
jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in
the next moment collected again.  But if you really struck one of these
fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help
but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step
forward, your amazement was great the next day.  

"The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled
off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if
indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing,
except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous
day.  [sounds like Keren. K.S.]

"Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.  I didn't know what to be more
amazed at:  the agility of their tongues of their virtuosity at lying."  

Kurt Stele



From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep  9 08:20:07 PDT 1996
Article: 63728 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg's "Yiddish" Debating-Style
Date: 9 Sep 1996 00:58:44 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>Kinda gets to you after a while, doesn't it, eh, bubbie?  

>It's gotten George J. Lehmann -- The Coward of Alta Loma, no? -- so
flustered 
>that he's sputtering about how he didn't mean anything with his lawsuit 
>threats, and admitting that he hasn't been inside a real bookstore in a
dozen 
>years.  

>Gotta  love it.  

as I told you before Joel, you're my favorite jewish holocauster on here. 
You knew that.  It is always good to see your type as vocal as possible. 

Kurt Stele


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.


From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep  9 19:33:23 PDT 1996
Article: 63916 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Joel Rosenberg is Slandering Jew
Date: 9 Sep 1996 18:15:05 -0400
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Notice how Joel Rosenberg continues to post slanders and personal attacks
on George Lehmann?  

Although they are lies, I am yet glad of it though.  

It presents to the world more examples of this classic Jewish modus
operandi:  "the smear."  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep  9 23:10:47 PDT 1996
Article: 63982 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Allegiance is to Israel First
Date: 9 Sep 1996 21:30:16 -0400
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Kurt Stele wrote:

>> Just like a holohugger.

>And revisionists never *ever* use name-calling.

>Boy that particular little piece of moral pomposity didn't last
>long, did it?

The exterminationists established a "no rules" game long ago. 
Exterminationists are still be far the more offensive with name-calling,
probably by a ratio of at least 5 to 1.  Maybe Rich Graves would care to
index this.

If the revisionists declared a "no name-calling" rule, then I and probably
all deniers on this newsgroup could abide by it -- I doubt the
exterminationists could, especially people like Keren and Rosenberg.  

After I wrote my piece, the name-calling continued.  

Whenever you or any other exterminationists want to play clean and declare
this a "no-name calling zone" I'll sign up.  I'm sure Giwer would do the
same.  

I've already advocated this.  

But it would probably never work, as it would deny the exterminationists
one of their main and only tools.

Kurt Stele

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca


From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep  9 23:10:49 PDT 1996
Article: 63983 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish Allegiance is to Israel First
Date: 9 Sep 1996 12:04:16 -0400
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Annie Alpert  wrote:

>Kurt Stele wrote:

>> 34 dead, 171 casualties.  A massacre all the same.
>> Where is the U.S.S. Liberty monument in Washington D.C.?  Where is the
>> Shpielberg films about it?

>For the record, the USS Liberty was engaged in spyiny against our ally
>(whether you like to admit it or not).  The Liberty was a spy ship. 
>Israel is our ally.  Read it and weep.  

Annie Albert, et al. believes murdering Americans for Israel is OK.

Annie Albert et al. says because Americans were spying on Israel, 34
Americans deserved to die to protect Israel's interests.  Had the
American's done the same to Israel Annie would be crying "anti-semitism."

In other words, Annie Albert's allegiance, like that of most other jews,
is not to America but to Israel.

Jews whenever it comes down to it will choose Israel and their fellow jews
over the nation they inhabit. They are "a nation within a nation" as they
have always been.

Is it any wonder why Jews are always considered "aliens" in every nation
they inhabit?  They erect the facade they are "Americans" or "French" or
"German" when in reality they are really "Jews" first. It is yet another
great hoax by history's greatest hoaxsters.

Because of the Jewish false allegiance, the Geman regime was well
justified in removing jews -- a group of people with disproportionate
prominence, alien values, a subversive influence on the host population,
and allegiance only to themselves.  

-Had- the nazis committed the Holocaust, they would have been justified,
because Annie said it is OK to murder another people in order to further
the interests of one's own.   

Jews can't complain about the Holocaust, even if true.  Jews butcher other
people to further their own interest -- precisely what they accused nazi's
of. Annie says this is justified.  Therefore, Jews owe us back a shitload
of money they pilferred for a Holocaust that, aside from being false, was
justified.

Jews have nothing to bitch about.

Jews will probably respond to this post with claptrap about "jewish
servicemen" who fought on the American side, and other claims the jews'
allegiance is really to their host country, and that they don't favor
their own people first.  

When it comes down to it however, jewish allegiance is to Israel and their
own.  They are an alien people who inhabit a host country, exploit it, and
fuck it up, but they have no allegiance to anyone except their own.

They are hypocrites, liars, and destroyers.  They are utterly impoverished
in the creation of high art.  Schmaltz and kitsch lies deep in the Jewish
race soul. This explains the Holohoax.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:27 PDT 1996
Article: 64006 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More on Irving
Date: 9 Sep 1996 22:12:33 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>David Irving's Hitler 
>                               A Faulty History Dissected

>                                Two Essays by Eberhard J ckel 
>                          Translation & Comments by H. David Kirk



>  Copyright 1993 
>  Foreword, Robert Fulford 

>[Continued] 

>The Holocaust deniers claim no such intervention from other- worldly
sources: they claim that this astounding
>project, convincing the world that six million died when they didn't, was
carried out by more or less ordinary human
>beings. That the Jews are said to have done it for practical gain (to
acquire both money and political support for
>Israel) isn't particularly notable; that idea fits into ordinary
antsemitic rhetoric. What must make us stand back in
>wonder, at both those who conceived the idea and those who claim to
believe it, is the titanic scale of the lie. 

why don't you produce a nazi gas chamber for us?  If not, cut the shit.

>Who, after more than a moment's thought, would believe it? 

>A fair number of people, apparently, and not all of them certified
antisemites. In the spring of 1993 the Roper
>Organization announced that 22 per cent of the American adults it polled
said that it seemed possible the Holocaust
>had never happened; an additional 12 per cent said they did not know if
it was possible .[2] Even those who are
>skeptical about opinion polling, believing that results often reflect
only half-hearted views, must acknowledge that
>Holocaust denial has found an audience of considerable size. 

A recent internet poll also showed that 50% of the people thought Marlon
Brando's comment that jews control the media wasn't antisemitic.  People
are starting to wake up, finally

>Why? One reason is that our historical period distrusts authority of any
kind, believing (unless persuaded otherwise)
>that statements issued by those in authority are likely to be
self-interested and routinely untruthful. In this case,
>possibly, some people have decided that the standard account given in
history books and the media represents the view
>of authority; Holocaust denial, on the other hand, may be seen as the
unofficial, outsider's view, which is
>automatically more credible in many eyes. The popularity of Holocaust
denial rnay be one fruit of a whole
>generation's shared belief that any statement endorsed by power should be
distrusted and that there is always a "real"
>truth, hidden from all but a few. 

that's because the public has been lied to so long by a hypocritical
jewish media.  But you don't have to have "a distrust in authority" to see
the obvious absurdity of the Holohoax. All you need to know is the
cremation rates

>Holocaust denial probably also profits from a widely held view that if an
idea is repeated often enough, and insisted
>on vehemently enough, then it is probably entitled to "a fair hearing."
Of course, anything like a fair hearing (such as
>the publication of unedited defense "evidence" by the Canadian newspapers
in the first of Ernst Zundel's trials in
>1985) amounts to a wonderful gift to the deniers, who are allowed to
spread their poisonous ideas further. Even if
>eight out of ten readers decide that they are fools or scoundrels, the
deniers still gain. Simply allowing them into the
>forum of public discussion (as many schools are now being pressured to
do) gives their ideas a certain validity. 

that is why the jews use their money and media power to censor it.  If
milliond of people can be brainwashed with the Lie, certainly they can
awaken when presented the truth.  

But where is your commentary on Irving specifically?  This is one cheesy
article

>Perhaps a general change in our culture's view of history has done even
more to create a kind of welcome for the
>deniers. One of the most striking characteristics of this period is the
waning of history as a subject of study,
>contemplation, and discussion. During the last thirty or so years, our
civilization has grown steadily less concerned
>with the past and more concerned with the present and the future. Those
who believe that a knowledge of the past is
>crucial to all human enterprises have become a minority (consider how
infrequently politicians and other leaders
>invoke historical precedent or tradition). 

that's because our democracy is pure cheese -- the jewish media tells us
what to think, how to vote, what not to wear.  Our elections are sideshow
circuses. The result is a superficial rootless society that cares only
about what's on the tube.  In a word:  the jewish society.  And yet after
turning them into zombies you expect them to be concerned about, of all
things, your bullshit history?

>In this vacuum, when a large part of the population has lost any sense of
history and how it is written, a bizarre thesis
>like Holocaust denial can flourish. Perhaps the most pressing and painful
of the lessons forced upon us by Irving and
>the Holocaust deniers is that we need to renew our relationship with
history. If we are not attentive to the past, if we
>carelessly forget it or regard it as only marginally important, then the
past can become a playground for evil. 

If revisionism is so bizarre how come it has to be enforced with
thoughtcrime laws? Isn't that bizarre? You people are far more outlandish.
You believe in the most preposterous fairy-tales every concocted.  Then
you criminalize "heresy" and imprison people for doubting your holy gospel
and because it contradicts your ghoulish, gore-wallowing religion. 
Bizarre indeed.

Kurt Stele

>Footnotes: 

>1. Robert Fulford, a Toronto journalist, writes a weekly column for The
Globe and Mail. He has written frequently
>on Holocaust denial and related issues. 

>2. Quoted by Michiko Kakutani in The New York Times, 30 April 1993. 

>                                            Work Cited 

>Robert Fulford, Irving's Hitler (Introduction), Port Angeles, Washington:
Ben-Simon Publications, 1993. pp 2-3) 


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:29 PDT 1996
Article: 64036 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GIWER: A true "revisionist"
Date: 9 Sep 1996 21:43:24 -0400
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hydigger@aol.com (Bodhisattva) wrote:

>On or about September 8, 1996, Matt  Giwer wrote:

>> There's no business like Shoah Business
>> Like no business I know.
>> Everything about it is appealing,
>> Everything that traffic will allow.
>> No where can you get that happy feeling
>> Than when your stealing
>  ^^^^      ^^^^

>Prior to the foregoing, and on or about September 7, 1996, the
>"revisionist" wrote:

>> There's no business like Shoah Business
>> Like no business I know.
>> Everything about it is appealing,
>> Everything that traffic will allow.
>> No where can you get that happy feeling
>> Then when your stealing
>  ^^^^      ^^^^

>About which the Bodhisattva remarked:

>>Oh, and, even with the banality and incoherence of your little stanza, I
>>would submit that you should also be using "than" rather than "then". 

>However, it is worth remarking that, despite his surreptitious "revision"
>of this error in fact, he has refused to revise the more glaring one,
>pointed out by Ms. Schwartz, that the correct contraction of "you are" is
>"you're," not the homophone "your."  

>The moral:  Matters of fact are not so important to Mr. Giwer as matters
>of pride.

>"But you knew that."

>And speaking of homophones, whence theGiwer's fascination with show
tunes?

I think you exterminationists have just a -taaaaad- bit more to worry
about these days than this paltry stuff.  

Namely, a crumbling, shabby, hoary old canard known as the "Holocaust." 

Now go back to work and find me a nazi gas chamber somewhere.  Step on it.

Kurt Stele 


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:29 PDT 1996
Article: 64042 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Allegiance is to Israel First
Date: 9 Sep 1996 18:11:17 -0400
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I wrote:

>Jews can't complain about the Holocaust, even if true.  Jews butcher
other
>people to further their own interest -- precisely what they accused
nazi's
>of. Annie says this is justified.  Therefore, Jews owe us back a shitload
>of money they pilferred for a Holocaust that, aside from being false, was
>justified.

Yet jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Holocaust-denial in a nutshell.

>kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>> Therefore, Jews owe us back a shitload
>> of money they pilferred for a Holocaust that, aside from being false,
was
>> justified.

notice how he truncated the passage.

Just like a holohugger.

I could care less.  

They are liars.  Their myth is crumbling.  That is what counts.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:30 PDT 1996
Article: 64043 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: George J. Lehmann -- the bluffer, braggart and coward -- whines again.  Film at 11.
Date: 10 Sep 1996 05:04:30 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>Looks like I've really gotten to you, George, you coward, you bluffer,
you 
>braggart, you George J. Lehmann.  

>Good.

I don't think George is flustered at all.  But I think he did tell you
properly where to stick it.  Wipe that shit off your lip Joel, you missed
some.

>In article <32337fc1.35001670@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ursus_m@ix.netcom.com
(Ursus 
>Major) writes:>From: ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major)
>>Subject: Don't let Joel Rosenberg make an anti-Semite out of YOU!
>>Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 02:32:21 GMT

>You'll find my new hardcover, George, The Silver Stone, at Daltons and
Waldens 
>and all the major chains; and all the books of my Guardians of the Flame 
>series have been in print, continously, since the publication of the
first 
>one, The Sleeping Dragon, in 1983.  It's now in either its thirteenth or 
>fourteenth printing (I forget), and has been published in, if I remember 
>correctly, English, German, Italian and Japanese, as well.

>I guess, though, you wouldn't know much about regular book stores,
though, 
>eh?  

Joel, who cares about your cheesy fantasy-fiction, Joel?  You're just
another jewish two-bit hack but with the ubiquitous "connections." No big
achievement there. 

>> A solopsistic neur-
>>otic, seething with hatred at his own failures, and finding
>>an "anti-Semite" lerking in every shadow. 

>George, George, George -- I've called you an antisemite, and you are.  

>If you don't like that, fine.  I don't want you to like that.  It's fine
with 
>me you don't like that.

I seriously doubt anyone on this newsgroup worries about being called "an
anti-semite" anymore. "Anti-semitic" is a promiscuous term that is
becoming more and more banal, like the Hollowcause itself.  It's losing
its power. Jews have overused it, having no sense of proportion as usual. 


Kind of like the boy who cries "wolf."

Kut Stele

>Take exception to
>>the outrageous behavior of the Holohuggers, and Rosenberg,
>>with the other Trarantulas in tow, will be there to vilify ad
>>nauseam. It keeps this solopsistic loser busy. Keeps his mind
>>off his own failings, off his real impotence. Having a little
>>nest of Trantulas following him around makes him feel impor-
>>tant, gives him a sense of superiority. But you don't try to
>>debate Rosenberg, it's like (  la Lipstadt) trying to nail a
>>piece of fecal matter to the wall.
>>   Still, don't let Rosenberg's neuroses prod you into anti-
>>Semitism. (Of course the religion's silly; which one isn't?
>>It's not at morbid as some.) When becoming exasterated with
>>"Monty Rosa," think about the Jews who have and are contrib-
>>uted to the Progress and Glories of Greater European Culture:
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>>Currently, such figures as Daniel Barenboim, James Levine,
>>Irving Kristol, Noam Choamsky, George Steiner, Rabbi Schiller
>>-- and a host of others. They're doing it NOW. The Lipstadts
>>and that set are simply milking the worst pogrom in history
>>for everything they can get out of it: and getting rich in
>>the process. (A bizarre Jewish variant of the Jim and Tammy
>>Baker scam: making religion--or in this case, religious per-
>>seqution--PAY. You don't think Nizkor runs on food stamps!)

>>In the past, think of such people as Spinoza (O.K., the Jew-
>>ish authorities--the Wiesenthals of their day--threw him out
>>and tried to murder him. Still, he was Jewish by birth; he
>>transcended the limitations of that condition.), Einstein,
>>Mahler, Freud, Proust [part], Salk and Sabin ... the list is
>>huge. (The last two, of course, discovered and improved the
>>vaccine against polio. That's what I usually remind the yahoo
>>anti-Semites: "Oh, so you and your kids aren't vaccinated for
>>polio, because Jews perfected the vaccine?")
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
>>-------
>>Just as there are skuzz-buckets among Revisionists, trying
>>to fuel anti-Semitism by sorting out what REALLY happened
>>(won't work: nothing can excuse the enormity of the crime,
>>but defiling history to make it appear worse isn't an answer),
>>so turning history inside-out to preserve the Mythos has kept
>>the paychecks flowing at Nizkor ... and gives Rosenberg a way
>>to console himself for being such a LOSER.

>>But, don't let Joel Rosenberg make an anti-Semite out of YOU!
>>=============================================================

>>MULTAE GENTES, UNA STIRPES!
>>      "Ursus Major"

>Tell me, George, have you changed the aluminum on your colander lately? 
I 
>think the present stuff has worn out.

>Here's a trick:  try using two layers, and putting a film of goose grease
in 
>between.  I think that'll keep Z-rays out longer.




>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.

RE:  GEorge Lehmann, the bluffer, braggart and coward


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:31 PDT 1996
Article: 64045 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 10 Sep 1996 05:04:47 -0400
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On 6 Sep 1996 05:12:06 -0400, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>#calling people "nazi" and "anti-semitic" because they question or
>#criticize jewish atrocities or exploitation isn't going to make these
>#events any less obvious.  

>No. No. No, Kurt. You still have it wrong. No one is calling you a nazi
or
>an anti-semite because you question anything.

>They call you a piece of nazi trash because, well, you are a piece of
nazi
>trash as is evident in nearly every post you make.

>Come on. Don't be a coward. If you are going to promote the hate, wear
the
>label with pride. Why hide behind the bullshit of pretending you don't
>believe the holocaust?

Come on Ken.  Admit that Jews use "anti-semitic" to try to smear and
silence anyone who dares question their actions, atrocities, or Lies.  Be
honest now.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:32 PDT 1996
Article: 64046 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 10 Sep 1996 05:04:50 -0400
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 16:18:44 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>#Chuck Ferree writes:
>#
>#Kurt, the wannbe nazi, claims in this post that he has visited the 
>#Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C.
>#I think he's lying again. He wouldn't spend his own money to go through
that Jewish Joint

That  you Chuck.  Finally a Holocauster admits that the Holocaust Memorial
Museum is indeed a "Jewish Joint," a Jewish affair, which focuses
primarily on Jews despite the token mention of dead gentiles which Jews
make to create the pretense that the Holocaust is "everybody's history" so
they can justify more guilt-shekels for more Shoah from the gullible
goyim.

>Of course he was lying again. Every time he opens his mouth one lie or
>another rolls out.

>How can you tell when a denier is lying? His mouth is moving.

Nice try.  Of course I went to the Holocaust museum.  I wouldn't miss one
of the greatest wonders of the World:  the most collosal monument to a Lie
that has ever been built. I must admit I was quite awed by it.  I was even
more amazed when I realized how many gullible goyim get bamboozled by it
every year.  

If you don't believe I went to the Holocaust memorial on the strength of
my word, then I don't blame you.  I don't give much credence to eyewitness
testimony either. With eyewitness testimony, one can claim -anything-. 
Good eye, Ken.

Wait, doesn't that undermine the Holocaust since the Holocaust is 95%
eyewitness testimony?

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:33 PDT 1996
Article: 64056 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Allegiance is to Israel First
Date: 10 Sep 1996 05:02:12 -0400
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>The exterminationists established a "no rules" game long ago. 
>Exterminationists are still be far the more offensive with name-calling,
>probably by a ratio of at least 5 to 1.  Maybe Rich Graves would care to
>index this.

Erratus:  the second sentence of the paragraph should read
"Exterminationists are still far offensive with name-calling." 

I realize they like to jump on every little error as if that gives them
some sort of foothold.  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:34 PDT 1996
Article: 64091 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation
Date: 10 Sep 1996 04:06:42 -0400
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kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:

>In article <51154b$h3h@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>* I do not have to.  It was first provided by a holohiugger.
>*Holohuggers say look it up on DejaNews.  You do the same. 

>You brought it up in this debate, you provide the cites.  That's the way
>it works in the real world.

>* You must be thinking of Danny "the fraud" Keren.  I have never claimed
>*a PhD.  You should be more familar with the NG before you jump in.  

>I've been on this newsgroup for a little over a year.  You should be more
>familiar with this newsgroup before you begin making assumptions at who
is
>and who is not familiar with the newsgroup.  You, however, never answered
>my question as to your educational background.  You're the one who called
>me "uneducated."  Please provide proof of that claim and what education
>you have that makes you able to make such a claim.

>*        As I have said, I am not going to backtrack for newcomers.  Even
the
>*old-timers play this game, brining up what has gone before long after
>*it has been answered against them.  So get used to it.

>I'm not a newcomer, as I have already stated.  Why do you oppose to
>repeating the information?  Are you afraid to?

>*This is not a conference for newcomers.  You can look to the
>*revisionist web sites for summaries on the presentations.  

>I am not a newcomer, as I have already stated abover.  Why do you oppose
>repeating the information?  Are you afraid to?

>*        No, illiterate.  I said there was no physical evidence of any.  

>It's quite obvious that I am not an illiterate, as I can read and respond
>to your postings.  An illiterate is someone who is unable to read.  I am,
>as it is quite obvious, able to read an communicate using the written
>word.  Your ridiculous insults will get you no where.  

>* If you did, post them.  You will be the first.  Even Nizkor has no such
>thing.  

>_Auschwitz --1270 to the Present_.  Authors:  Deborah Dwork and Robert
Jan
>van Pelt.  Publishers: W.W. Norton & Company, Inc.  500 5th Avenue, New
>York, NY  10110.   Copyright @ 1996 by Deborah Dwork and Robert Jan van
>Pelt.  Blueprints (among many):  Plate 3.  Text:  "Plan and elevations of
>the crematorium of the main camp, 1942.  Osobyi Archive, Moscow, coll.
>502/1, file 312.  The drawing, showing the location of the new chimney,
>was made after all three double-muffle ovens had been installed.  The
>large space to the right of the incineration hall is the morgue, which
was
>transformed into a gas chamber in September, 1941."  Plate 8:  "Early
>design sketch of the prisoner reception building in the main camp, 1942. 
>Architect Walther Dejaco.  Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, box BW 160/3,
>file BW 160/11.  To the left is the laundry, to the right are the baths,
>and the center wing houses the prisoner reception facilities and the
>pavillion with nineteen Zyklon B gas chambers."  

>There's more if you'd like...

>*As a newcomer you would not be.  It is a person who can not consider
>*the possibility that there was not massive execution of gassing.  

>I am not a newcomer, as stated above.  Why do you call a person who can
>not consider the possibility that there was not a massive execution of
>gassing a "holohugger?"  Just exactly what are people supposed to be
>"hugging?"  I call someone who can not consider the possibility that
there
>was not a massive execution of gassing a person who has reviewed facts
and
>knows the truth.  A person like that certainly isn't "hugging" anything. 


>*        Your idiot pretensions are ignored.

>My "idiot pretentions?"  I asked you to explain a sentance.  Why am I
then
>called an "idiot" for such a request?  I honestly did not understand the
>sentance.  I'm sure the reason was because you made a typo, but I could
>not decifer the sentance.  You certainly do get all hot-under-the-collar
>when presented with opposition.  Perhaps you are the one who is unwilling
>to accept the truth, yet embarassed by the facts contrary to your
>unpopular and minority point of view.  Therefore you resort to tossing
>around insults that mean nothing and hypocritical accusations.  Hmmm.  I
>know a few psychologists who would have a field day with someone such as
>yourself.

>-- 
>kate@accessone.com
>"Most people don't have the luxury of living to be 80 years old, 
>so it's hard for me to feel sorry for them."
>                    -Sen. Phil Gramm, during a floor debate on social
security.

Kathleen, 

When are you going to answer "Charles"'s question as to why Jews are
permitted special treatment for their historical events, while no other
group gets the same?  When are you going to answer that?  You've been
evading it for weeks.  Are you going to answer it or not?  We already know
-why- you want to divest inner city kids. You would rather have another
Holocrap festival than build houses for the poor. Some values -you- have. 
 

Answer the questions and stop fucking around.  You're a lightweight, even
more shrill than Annie and Sara, but on the same level and worth about as
much bandwidth.  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:35 PDT 1996
Article: 64096 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why does George Lehmann keep making a fool out of himself?  Inquiring minds, and all that...
Date: 10 Sep 1996 05:03:59 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <512i65$drj@news1.panix.com> fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis)
writes:
>>From: fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis)
>>Subject: Re: Why does George Lehmann keep making a fool out of himself?
>>Inquiring minds, and all that... (short version)
>>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 04:10:55 GMT

>>klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>>>On Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:37:51 GMT, qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
wrote:


>>>>This was a well known fraud, the suit by strawguy Mr. Mermelstein
>>>>against the IHR, being ruled against in a civil suit without 

>>>Yea. A real fraud. Were those fraud dollars IHR had to pay out? All
90,000
>>>of them?

>>If I remember properly, Carto tried some kind of skewed angle like
>>this a day before the judgment was due to be paid to Mermelstein.  The
>>motion was thrown out of court.

>>Interesting aside: That the Holocaust is an established fact is now
>>California civil law.

>And in part, that's due to the unintentional good work of the IHR.

>That's the thing about these folks -- they're stupid.  George can pour
piss 
>out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel, but he'd pour
it 
>all over himself, like he did tonight.  

>I mean, George could have picked any number of things to lie about
tonight, 
>but he had to pick the content of the Library of Congress catalog, which 
>anybody with a web browser, or even just a gopher or telnet client, can 
>search, and find that he's a bald-faced, bluffing liar.

You just said he couldn't follow instructions, indicating it is not a lie
but an error

>Thanks, George. 

Those aren't lies.  They're "errors."  

I know you guys are hard up for anything to smear someone with but at
least wait until at least an arguable basis for smearing arises.

First learn the difference between an "error" and a "lie."

Here's a clue: what the Holocaust consists of are "lies."  

A clerical mistake is an "error."

you have to stay basic with these guys

Kurt Stele


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:35 PDT 1996
Article: 64106 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 6 Sep 1996 21:16:56 -0400
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Annie Alpert  wrote:

>For the record, the USS Liberty was engaged in spyiny against our ally
>(whether you like to admit it or not).  The Liberty was a spy ship. 
>Israel is our ally.  Read it and weep.  

Ah yes.  Here is a jewish holocauster justifying the killing of 34 men for
spying on "our ally" Israel.  

The U.S.S  Liberty servicemen spy and get killed and it is called an
"accident" and rationalized:  "it was a spy ship."  Jews spy and receive
jail-time if that, amid cries of "anti-semitism."

And so the special treatment continues...  

The men of the U.S.S Liberty receive no films, no international protests
about them.  Those aren't permitted when jews do the killing.  

The men of the U.S.S. Liberty just receive more denials and
rationalizations.

If it had been an Israeli ship spying on the U.S., and it had been bombed,
you can just imagine the outcry:  "Those anti-semites.  Those jewish
murderers" ad infinitum.

Israel is an "ally" only because jews say it is.  Israel has no other
strategic importance to the U.S. other than placating Jews and securing
the spleen of millions of Arabs who used to be on good terms with U.S. and
now oppose the U.S. because Israel's atrocities against Arabs, both past
and present.  

Case in point:  the Qana massacre, where 10's of women and children are
butchered by Israeli shelling.  "What the hell. It was an accident."   

One can count all the marines who died in Lebanon, along with the victims
of anti-American terrorism in the Middle East, along with those who will
be killed in the future, as the direct result of our slavish tax support
of Israel.

Our support is maintained only because of jewish money power, which
insures that Israel is given one fourth of all foreign aid (well over $300
million in U.S. tax dollars) each year, not counting money paid to Egypt
and other countries as a part of another deal for Israel.  But noone in
Congress dare speak out lest they be lynched by jewish money power.  Some
"democracy," eh?

We need Israel as an "ally" about as much as we need a hole in our head. 
With "friends" like that who needs enemies?

Kurt Stele



From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 11:35:57 PDT 1996
Article: 64125 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 10 Sep 1996 05:04:38 -0400
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On 7 Sep 1996 18:03:25 -0400, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>#"Even if the Holohoax did happen it was unsafe for Jews to be in German
>#society.  After all, their interests were at odds with the German
people. 

>Really? And just how were their interests at odds with the German people?

>And weren't they citizens and thus 'German people?"

So-called citizens with their main allegiance to themselves just as
always, just as today.  Jewish "citizenship" is another great hoax.  Jews
are "citizens" are several countries.  Yet Jewish primary allegiance is
not to their host nation but to themselves and to Israel.  Just ask Annie
-- she'll tell you all about it.  She also said it's OK for Israel to
murder U.S. servicemen on the U.S.S. Liberty to further Israel's interest,
but never the other way around, of course.  She's a regular paragon of
American patriotism.  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 11:35:58 PDT 1996
Article: 64126 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: 10 Sep 1996 05:05:01 -0400
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scotterb@maine.maine.edu (Scott Erb) wrote:

>In article <50sui0$vr@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
says...

>>        Changing the subject does not contribute to the discussion.  

>An ironic claim on your part given how you completely ignore the
questions 
>the original poster asks and how you try to change the subject yourself.
>    
>>        31 million people disappeared.  So what?  

>>        Where is the physical evidence?  There was none presented at
>>Nuremberg.  

>So?  There is physical evidence from:

>  -- survivors

eyewitness testimony -- that time-proven institution of reliability.  

>  -- liberators

liberators found healthy inmates in several areas.

>  -- documents found

the amount is both suspicious and threadbare.  Nowhere near the amount
which would have existed if "extermination" had actually been a
governmental objective

>  -- confessions of perpetrators

Oh yes.  "Confessions" after being threatened with death before and during
trial and often tortured. Those are valid, I'm sure.

>  -- remnants found in the death camps

you mean the ones starving and who would have been killed had the nazis
been actually trying to "exterminate" jews, but somehow were allowed to
live long enough to starve?

>Unless you want to come with some wild conspiracy theory that all these 
>people are faking it and all evidence planted, you have a very, very
weak, if 
>not non-existent case.  People disappear.  There is considerable, 
>overwhelming evidence that large numbers of them died in the holocaust.  
>There is documentation, eye witness accounts, remnants found.  The case
is 
>airtight.

>You lose.

Not.  The Holocaust has yet to meet its burden of producing physical
evidence.

Kurt Stele

>Now, could you answer the questions from the original poster which you so

>blatantly ignore?
>-scott


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 11:35:59 PDT 1996
Article: 64143 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg is Slandering Jew
Date: 9 Sep 1996 21:35:13 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <5124t9$rlc@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) writes:
>>From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
>>Subject: Joel Rosenberg is Slandering Jew
>>Date: 9 Sep 1996 18:15:05 -0400


>>Notice how Joel Rosenberg continues to post slanders and personal
attacks
>>on George Lehmann?  

>>Although they are lies, I am yet glad of it though.  

>>It presents to the world more examples of this classic Jewish modus
>>operandi:  "the smear."  

>>Kurt Stele

>You know, it occurs to me that accusing somebody of "slander", sans a 
>scintilla of evidence to that effect, isn't nice.  

>It may be even be contrary to aol policy.  

>What do you think, "Kurt?"

Exhibit 1:

ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) wrote:

>You've seen Rosenberg in action. He's been at it for years:
>he and his nest (known as "Lipstadt's Tarantulas"), scurring
>around the Net, looking for something they can hook on to: a
>catch praise or a thread, which can be wrapped in stock in-
>sults, avoiding issues or debate, just playing it for an ego-trip,
>because he's such a loser. Claims to write "books" --
>try finding any at a regular book store. A solopsistic neur-
>otic, seething with hatred at his own failures, and finding
>an "anti-Semite" lerking in every shadow. Take exception to
>the outrageous behavior of the Holohuggers, and Rosenberg,
>with the other Trarantulas in tow, will be there to vilify ad
>nauseam. It keeps this solopsistic loser busy. Keeps his mind
>off his own failings, off his real impotence. Having a little
>nest of Trantulas following him around makes him feel impor-
>tant, gives him a sense of superiority. But you don't try to
>debate Rosenberg, it's like (  la Lipstadt) trying to nail a
>piece of fecal matter to the wall.
>   Still, don't let Rosenberg's neuroses prod you into anti-
>Semitism. (Of course the religion's silly; which one isn't?
>It's not at morbid as some.) When becoming exasterated with
>"Monty Rosa," think about the Jews who have and are contrib-
>uted to the Progress and Glories of Greater European Culture:
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Currently, such figures as Daniel Barenboim, James Levine,
>Irving Kristol, Noam Choamsky, George Steiner, Rabbi Schiller
>-- and a host of others. They're doing it NOW. The Lipstadts
>and that set are simply milking the worst pogrom in history
>for everything they can get out of it: and getting rich in
>the process. (A bizarre Jewish variant of the Jim and Tammy
>Baker scam: making religion--or in this case, religious per-
>seqution--PAY. You don't think Nizkor runs on food stamps!)

>In the past, think of such people as Spinoza (O.K., the Jew-
>ish authorities--the Wiesenthals of their day--threw him out
>and tried to murder him. Still, he was Jewish by birth; he
>transcended the limitations of that condition.), Einstein,
>Mahler, Freud, Proust [part], Salk and Sabin ... the list is
>huge. (The last two, of course, discovered and improved the
>vaccine against polio. That's what I usually remind the yahoo
>anti-Semites: "Oh, so you and your kids aren't vaccinated for
>polio, because Jews perfected the vaccine?")
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
>Just as there are skuzz-buckets among Revisionists, trying
>to fuel anti-Semitism by sorting out what REALLY happened
>(won't work: nothing can excuse the enormity of the crime,
>but defiling history to make it appear worse isn't an answer),
>so turning history inside-out to preserve the Mythos has kept
>the paychecks flowing at Nizkor ... and gives Rosenberg a way
>to console himself for being such a LOSER.

>But, don't let Joel Rosenberg make an anti-Semite out of YOU!
>=============================================================

>MULTAE GENTES, UNA STIRPES!
>      "Ursus Major"

-----end------------

Exhibit 2:

>Ursus Major (ursus_m@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Rose Valley's retort:
>: >George, George, George -- does this sort of stuff really fly in Alta
Loma? 
>: >
>: >Check out http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/pamphlets/pamphlets.html
>: >
>: >Or don't.  I'm sure YOU won't find anything you'll agree is
anti-Semitic 
>: >there, but I'm sure anybody sane would.  
>: 
>: That was not the gambit: YOU put up material from IHR which is anti-
>: Semitic. You claim they are. You show it ... or go back to the Cabala!
>
>George, George, George--you really shouldn't make antisemitic remarks
>while you're trying to prove you're not an antisemite.

What in the world is anti-Semitic about that? If one were a Muslim and
the reference were to a Ouiga-board, or a Gypsy and it was the Tarot,
would it be anything other than mere wry humor? Knock it off, you've
obviously never read Patrick Dennis. A little humor, Willem,
it will do wonders for you--almost like a high-fibre diet!

=================

SEMPER FIDELIS (et Semper Prudens)!
        "Ursus Major"

------end---------

You continue to attack George as a coward and an anti-semite.  You
continue to slander George with vicious personal accusations, regardless
what parsimonious Talmudic definition you want to use for slander.  There
are 8 headers alone you have posted with George's personal name in it,
attacking him personally, several of which have the word "coward" in it,
along with numerous posts attacking him both as a coward and an
anti-semite, along with an uninterrupted host of disparaging epithets
besides.  George has even posted a counter to your remarks "Don't let Joel
Rosenberg turn you into an anti-Semite" (see above) and he has claimed
numerous times that he is not an anti-semite. Yet you are obviously intent
on trying to smear him.  

Go ahead.  Report me to AOL.  It is the jewish modus operandi to shut down
opposition with legalism, personal attacks and slander, jewish-money
pressure and when that fails, terrorism.  

Aw, what's the matter Joel?  You can dish it out but you can't take it? 
tsk tsk.

BTW I thought your pulp-fantasy book _The Road to the Warrior_ sucked,
Joel.  

Do you want to report me for that too, Mr. Thought Polizei?

Kurt Stele

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 10 17:30:59 PDT 1996
Article: 64208 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING, HISTORIAN, TO SPEAK IN NEWPORT BEACH, CA 7-SEPT
Date: 10 Sep 1996 04:09:11 -0400
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On 8 Sep 1996 09:54:29 -0600, nmonagha@nyx10.cs.du.edu (N.O. Monaghan)
>wrote:

>#Ken Lewis (klewis@veritas.nizkor.org) wrote:
>#: How about David Irving amateur historian? 
>#
>#Amateur? Nonsense, he is a professional historian who makes his living
>#from his historical writing.

>Sorry, bub, making money is not an indication of being a professional.

>Professionalism is marked by such things as degrees and  peer review. In
the
>world of academics it is also characterized by ethics, correct citations,
>and factual presentation.

>Mr. Irving does not qual;ify by any stretch of the imagination.

Mr Irving has more talent and ability in his toenail than you have in your
whole body. You're not fit to empty the man's dirty linen.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Wed Sep 11 18:35:35 PDT 1996
Article: 64498 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another breakthough
Date: 9 Sep 1996 22:14:43 -0400
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>How come only I noticed this? Folks, what is ZOG paying
>you for?

>Saw yesterday, on CNN, that General Lebed gave a figure
>for the losses in the Cechnia (sp?) war which is different
>by a factor of 3 than what was accepted till now.

>As we all know, a standard "revisionist tactic" is to
>claim that when conflicting figures for the number of
>victims is given, this proves the corresponding event 
>never took place.

>Mark it down, people. Another "revisionist" breakthrough:
>"no war in Cechnia!".

Keren resorts to silly stuff.

Question:  how come one can question Chechnya casualty figures all day
long but if one question Holocaust casualty figures one is called an
"anti-semite" and could be thrown in jail?

Answer:  jewish money-power.

Kurt Stele

>-Danny Keren.


From kurtstele@aol.com Wed Sep 11 21:08:13 PDT 1996
Article: 64515 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yet another demonstration that George J. Lehmann is not merely an antisemite, and a coward, and a bluffer and braggart, but a liar as well.
Date: 10 Sep 1996 05:05:02 -0400
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
>>>but I do think 
>>>you're being hard on him for the wrong things. I believe he really is
an 
>>>independent racist (and originally I thought militia crank) -- I doubt 
>>>he'd give a neo-Nazi "movement" type the time of day.
>>
>>Well, he does buddy up awfully close to the IHR/CODOH folks...

>Er... the IHR, for all its considerable faults, ain't the National
>Alliance. There is a spectrum here. Not of greater or lesser wrong,
maybe,
>but of intensity, yes, especially for "the lurkers." Suit the rhetoric to
>the situation.

What you don't understand, Rich, is that for jews like Rosenberg this -is-
the sort of situation for that sort of rhetoric.  It's hard for goyim like
you to comprehend the mentality.  Their view is anyone who doubts the
Holocaust is an anti-semite.  Period.  I don't think you quite understand
how these people think. To their minds to doubt the Holocaust is per se an
antisemitic act. You won't have any luck trying to tone them down.  Their
smear tactics are one of the main reason the Lie has lasted so long:
intimidation by smear, or worse. Those tactics have been effective and
they're not going to give them up because a shabbos-goy calls them on it.

Rich, you're advocating fairness and reasonableness in debate (you silly
goy).  Their approach was never -about- fairness and reasonableness.  They
realize those cumbersome and constraining rules are for the stupid goyim,
and they are quite liberated from all that "moral baggage." 

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Wed Sep 11 23:18:02 PDT 1996
Article: 64533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Joel Rosenberg is a Swarthy, Geeky Little Jew
Date: 10 Sep 1996 04:13:06 -0400
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Have you all seen a picture of Joel Rosenberg? It's on the sleeve of his
new pulp fantasy-novel _The Silver Stone_ and on his home page.

One look at the man will explain why he would be into carrying "large
guns" like the Desert Eagle and interested in writing fantasies about
being a hero.

In contrast, on the front of Joel's pulp-fantasy novels are many
Nordic-looking people. In fact, Joel's material is derivative from Irish
and Norse legends, as one obligatory reviewer observed. In fact, one of
his main characters is "Karl Cullinane" (Ever heard of the Irish hero
Cuchalain?  Yep.)  His stuff is nothing more than Tolkien kitsch with
Yiddish characters and schtick. Talk about cultural theft.

What a Jew for taking Norse mythos and putting in Jewish characters. Joel,
can't you at least stick to your people's own legends and fantasy without
taking ours out on loan?  Oh, but I forgot -- anything for commerical
gain, eh?  Quite a desecration of Norse and Irish mythology I should say.

Fantasy-author Rosenberg's new cheese-ball novel -- "The Silver Stone"
depicts Jewish swordsman (sic) "Ian Silverstein" traipesing off to unknown
fantasy worlds in search of the "dark matter." 

The "dark matter" is presumably the first physical evidence of the
Holocaust.

Joel you sure you weren't writing propaganda for the Allies, circa, oh,
1945? You're the perfect man for the job.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:29 PDT 1996
Article: 64901 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FAX me an outline of your COCK!
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:41:22 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com


>Wild.one@edenbbs.com wrote:
>
>>Hi guys!
>
>>We're having a contest to get the sexiest FAX of a man's cock!  The
winning
>>cock receives $100 cash, so please include an email address along with
your
>>traced cock.
>
>>How do you do it?  Simple, get a sheet of paper, outline your cock with
a pen and
>>FAX it to ...
>
>>714-645-5868
>
>>BE SURE and indicate your email address on the FAX!
>
>
>>Good Luck and Great licks!
>
>>Traci4U

ibwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>This poor woman is going to get a faxed tracing of Tom Moran's 
>head...

>Bill

I've seen holocausters stoop pretty far down, but this is new low, even
for Bill (geesh).

And to think I thought William Anderson was better than the rest of them,
that he was the "conscience" of the Holocauster A-team.  

So much for that.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:30 PDT 1996
Article: 64904 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:18:05 -0400
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	Ken McVay, the Director of the anti-hate, Holocaust, Holocaust,
>Holocaust website, Nizkor, gives rave reviews to a recent shut down of
>a radio program in the East Coast called "Dissident Voices" that aired
>the opinions of Ernst Zundel.

>	McVay's lead to respond to, under, "Congratulations, KXEL and
>Mr.Morehead"
>	
>>Ingrid Rimland:

>>Why not call in to KXEL, ask for Mr. Morehead, swallow every harsh word
>>that's crowding on your tongue and let your feelings known politely?  I
>>know.  It isn't always easy.  But it's strategically smart to let our
>>opposition know that we are men and women of breeding, substance,
strength
>>and principles and spine - and that as customers of products advertised
on
>>radio programs we don't like it one bit when we are told what we can
listen
>>to or not.

>>The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430.


>McVay:

>"Thank you, Dr. Rimland, for providing this information. I will
>call Mr. Morehead first thing tomorrow morning, and, on behalf
>of the Nizkor Project, compliment him on the quality of his
>programming changes.

>The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430.

>Unless I'm mistaken, several hundred other folks will do
>precisely the same thing, given your consideration in
>providing us with the numbers.... hmmm... 200 folks on your
>super-secret-only-published-to-the-internet-ten-times mailing
>list, and 70 million of us... I'm sure Mr. Morehead's in for a
>satisfying and happy week!"

>	
>	Seems McVay thinks he has 70,000,000 people ready to go on line
>in defense of his call to action for the nixing of a program called,
>"Dissident Voices".

>McVay continues:

>"The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430.

>Once again, thank you, Ms. Rimland, for bringing this
>progressive policy to our attention, and for letting us know
>that Mr. Morehead had the good sense to terminate Mr. Zundel's
>air pollution without further ado."

>	Seems McVay likes the idea of his opposition being stamped out by
>means other than his capability to deal with their output by the
>recognized academic, professional, empirical method.
>	What can you say about someone that would prefer his opposition
>not be given the chance to air their views? Doesn't he have the
>confidence in his widely touted website? Doesn't he have the belief
>his stuff is so awesome it can over come anything? Could this be a
>sign that McVay subliminally, at least, knows he is corrupt? Is it an
>admission he can't hang on his output alone, that he needs the acts of
>censorship to prevail? Could it mean that McVay really knows,
>subliminally at least, that the Holcoaust story is a lie?

>"The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430."


>McVay continues with the rave review:

>"That's what I call quality programming!"

>	What McVay really means, going by his immediately stated position
>is, 'unprogramming', since we could assume he doesn't have any idea
>about what they do air otherwise.

>"The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430."


>	May I thank Ken McVay for his informing us he is sending his
>compliments. I am faxing off three examples of his output here on
>alt.revisionism, including the one commented on here
>("Congratulations, KXEL and Mr.Morehead") so Mr.Morehead will know
>what kind of mentality endorses the move. I will also post one
>directed to the general staff.

>	Poor McVay, he's so intellectually weak he can't cope. He rather
>see his opposition not have access to airing their views. He would
>rather have it that only his stuff gets out without having it opposed.
>	Would he deny that his arch enemies of the past, Hitler and
>Goebbels, might prefer the same?

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html

More censorship of revisionism by the "free and fair" media.

And the holocausters love it.

No wonder the Holocaust is currently the majority view.  Not because of
its merits but because opposing views are censored.  Under such
heavy-handed enforcement how could it not be the majority view?  

How ashamed I would be if I was on the side which muffles the mouths of
the other.  

Half an hour of local A.M radio airtime to a dissenting viewpoint was too
much heresy for the media to handle.

Dissent is no more openly allowed by our media bosses than by the most
jingoistic military junta or jaundiced religious sect. In fact, I have far
more respect for the latter since they do not hypocritically assume the
pretense of "supporting freedom of speech."

So much for all the vaunted "plurality" of our democracy.  A travesty
indeed.  What good is "freedom of speech" if one cannot be heard?

I wouldn't be surprised if one of these days the media as we know it is
destroyed.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:31 PDT 1996
Article: 64905 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Walking down a dark street in black Oakland (was Re: ?)
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:12:12 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>>What is freedom? There are some very different concepts around.
Communist
>>China claims to be free... free of Capitalism.
>>Americans have all sort of freedom... but how free are they to go out
>>at night, alone, in a dark street in a city, and not be worried?

You mean you admit that it is, -- er forget it.

>Late Tuesday night, as I was walking down a dark street in downtown
>Oakland (a block from Grant Avenue, near Studio 54), a majority-minority
>city of below-average income, on my way back from a talk by noted Nazi
>apologist and perjurist David Irving,
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/ , a large black man
>stepped out of the shadows and asked what I was doing in town. His name
is
>Dennis. He and a friend (a quiet mustachioed man in a denim jacket who
had
>also stepped out of the shadows -- in the shadows, I couldn't really tell
>whether he was white, latino, or mixed) had heard about the demonstration
>against David Irving's speech. (The mass demonstration amounted to eight
>people with signs and a megaphone with dying batteries.) We ended up
>talking for about a half hour about poverty, race, drugs, health care,
and
>"movement leaders." We agreed that shit like what's in the
>alt.revisionism thread "Text of Flier to 'Shut Down Racist David Irving'"
>does not represent normal people. He was a bit harder on Jesse Jackson
>than I would have been. He actually sounded a lot like Milton Kleim
>talking about the "white movement."

>Another black man, this one with long dreadlocks, came walking down the
>dark street. He asked whether we were musicians. I said, er, no, and
>Dennis asked him why he'd asked that. Half-chuckling, he said, "Whenever
>you see a black man talking to a white man, you know they're musicians,"
>and started walking away. Dennis insisted, we talked for a bit. Turns out
>that Martin is a musician with some interesting insights. I told him my
>brother was into the same music, and had been to Oakland several times.
>Maybe they'd seen the same show.

>Dennis and his friend (I never got his name) walked off along Telegraph
>Avenue. Martin and I walked down the dark street, in the same direction,
>he towards his apartment, I towards the car that would take me back to
>the (relatively) poor, predominantly minority section of Palo Alto, and I
>remarked, "You know, that's not supposed to happen anymore, running into
>people in the street and just talking." As he struggled with the two 
>deadbolts securing his apartment, Martin said, "Why not?"

>I got into my car and drove off.

>I'm a geeky white guy, in case you were wondering.

>-rich

Joel is still geekier.

BTW, that was an incredible conversation you had with Dennis.  Incredible.
 Delightful.  Stupendous.  Those conversations are infinitely -worth-
putting up with the rampant Black crime for.  Who wants places like Whitey
Germany when you can go to Oakland and have a conversation (and such a
conversation!) with a man in the shadows (if he does not knife you first)?
 This is a far superior society you stand for, Rich.  This is a
breakthrough.  This is TRUE progress.  

It was -all- worth it.  Giving up freedom to walk the streets safely at
night so Rich can have "interesting conversations" with Dennis, et al.  It
was worth it.  WWII was a victory.  Where do I give more money?

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:32 PDT 1996
Article: 64907 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler's Military
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:20:31 -0400
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <516vnp$a3e@snow.btinternet.com>, 
>I.Whitfield@btinternet.com wrote:

>>In article <3235C301.FD7@airmail.net>, hombre1@airmail.net says...

>>particular time,  I could write a book on the subject, but for now I
will 
>>just say this, had I have been a twelve year old German at that
particular 
>>time I would have been a proud member of the Hitler youth and worn the 

>You would have been a member, proud or not. German youth over
>the age of ten were required to join the Jungvolk, whether
>they wanted to or not.

>>uniform with pride, Hitler did make mistakes, but it s about time people

>>looked at what he achieved in the thirties when he raised Germany out of

>>the gutter and turned them into a proud Nation, you are so right in
saying 

>...you neglected to mention a few tidbits relating to "turning
>Germany into a proud nation," including the deliberate
>reduction of the legislature to impotence, 

and ours is better?  Where noone in government takes responsibility for
anything and pork barrel is the rule of the day?  Where no big problem can
ever be solved?  Where special interest and jewish money-power calls the
shots?  Ah yes, our legislature is just -so- superior at solving problems,
or even executing the will of the people which is its purported raison
d'etre

>the curtailment of the free elections process, 

Our Democracy is a sham. Voter indifference tells the whole story.

>the destruction of local government structure (making them, in effect,
organs of the federal government and the Nazi Party), 

our local government structures give the people no real power to regulate
their communities as to education, immigration, or morality.  All local
anti-gay referendums have been ruled unconstitutional.  5 million
California voters were overturned by one Jewish judge who gutted
Proposition 187.  So much for freedom of local governments.

>the purging of the civil service - indeed the entire nation - on racial
>grounds,

You denounce Germans for removing Jews for the best interest of the German
people yet Israel has forced the removal of hundreds of thousands of
Palestinian for the good of Israel, and that is OK, right?  It must be OK,
since we fund it.

>the creation of a dual State-Nazi Party system of totalitarian
>political control, 

McVay, remember your argument you used before to justify the jailing of
Gerhard Lauck for his thoughts:  "The Germans are a sovereign people.  Who
are we to criticize their choice?"  Well, I ask you the same: "who are we
to criticize their form of government?"  

>the ruthless purging of the political opposition, 

Hitler is to ignore Roem's open threats and preparations to usurp power?

>the use of legislative and judicial powers to terrorize the opposition,
the >creation of a pervasive >national espionage system that turned
everyone in the >country into a spy, the imprisonment of political
opponents without judicial
>process, 

but it's OK to imprison Gerhard Lauck for his thoughts as long as he is
given "judicial process."  I see a double standard here.

>the destruction of the free labor movement, 

The government reformation of labor allowed the German to recover from an
econonomic Depression in 3 years what it took U.S. 10 years.  Roosevelt
hated Hitler for his spectacular and unprecedented success, among other
things  

>the suppression of the Christian churches through subversion,

Contrary to the Stalinist regime of "Uncle Joe" our "friend in arms,"
Hitler afforded the Christian Churches tremendous leeway, despite Hitler's
awareness of the role of Christianity in the subversion of his people and
its traditional use as a pawn of division in the Jewish power-game. The
Christian churches typically are themselves sanctuaries for subversion. 

>arrests, intimidation, confiscation of property, 

yes, and we financially support Israel to do the same against the
Palestinians. Nor do you denounce when the German government strips
(former) Judge Wilhelm Stagliech's degree by resort to Hitlerian law,
simply because Stagliech had the courage to report that what he saw as a
German guard was nothing like the Holocaust Tale.  

Nor do you denounce when revisionists are arrested and thrown into jail,
but rather you defend the German government's "right to do so" as if mere
legality and not freedom was the issue

>use of law as a tool of suppression, 

According to you law "as a tool of suppression" is OK when used against
Gerhard Lauck though.

>violation of religious rights, in Germany and Poland, and, of course, the
>persecution of the Jews and the creation of a slave labour system. 

The Jews were a conquered people and the nazis needed labor during
wartime.  Certainly the Jews previously benefitted enough from the
gratuity being allowed to inhabit and prosper within German society as an
alien nation, and one whose interests were contrary to the German people.
Ultimately Jews were intended to be evacuated from Germany the surrounding
territories.  

BTW do you know about the use of "White slaves" in Israel right now? I'll
have to post this.

>Last, but certainly not least, the corruption of Germany's educational
>system, >and, as a direct result, its youth, 

Nazi Germany's educational system taught White youth pride in their
heritage, and taught them about their roots, about their race.  Without an
appreciation and knowledge of themselves a people cannot preserve their
race and civilization.  That is the real purpose of an education:  to
enable the next generation to carry the torch.  But our education cannot
provide this for White people. If fact it does the exact opposite,
teaching Whites that the highest value is a self-hatred of themselves. 
They do this to Whites deliberately, knowing that any people who does not
know or appreciate their past will feel little responsibility for
preserving its future.

>and the imposition of a brutal system of censorship, propaganda and the
>complete supervision of all aspects of cultural activities.

Aren't you still talking here about the Germany of today?  The only
difference is that under Hitler the German people were prosperous and
happy.  Lloyd George British premier during World War I, after a visit to
Germany in 1936, was wuoted in the Daily Telegraph of 22nd September of
that year as stating: "I have never seen a happier people than the
Germans."  They had a thriving cultural renaissance and explosion in their
birth rate.  Under Hitler they didn't have porno shops at every corner nor
rampant drugs nor non-white immigration flooding in. Hitler had the
highest approval rating by his people of this century, if not in the
entire history of Europe.

The NSDAP's "Strength through Joy" organization had by 1938 enabled over
22 million to visit theaters, over 18 million to attend film performances,
over 5 million to attend concerts, over 3 million to attend factory
exhibitions, and no less than 50 million to take part in cultural events. 
The organization had 230 establishment for popular edcuation, and through
it 62,000 education events were arranged, being attended by 10 million
people.  By 1938 490,000 had been given sea cruises, and 19 million had
been given land excursions, 21 million had taken part in sporting events. 
All this at a time when the democracies left millions of unemployed to
rot, and those who were employed received nothing remotely comparable to
such welfare.  The best-selling car in history -- more than 15 million of
the Volkswagen "Beetle" in over 30 countries -- resulted from Hitler's
project of a people's car, a small inexpensive car for the ordinary man. 
Connected with this, his Autobahn construction-program preceded Britain's
by decades (For more detailed information see _Hitler Germany_ by Cesare
Santoro).

>See http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-07-index.html
>for specifics 

>...oh, yes, did I mention the destruction of the German economy?

When Hitler came to power, no less than 6,014,000 were unemployed, yet by
1938 only 338,000 remained out of work; the vast bulk of this reduction
being achieved before any significant rearmament, contrary to hostile
propaganda.  

Hitler's money system was based on the labor credit of the nation alone,
which obviated the need for the gold of the jewish international
financiers. As a result there was a great burst of prosperity.  Germany
begain to crowd out all competitors, not only in the Balkans but even in
South America.  Hitler's economy threatened to cause a domino effect,
breaking the monopoly of international finance by demonstrating that money
could be issued in any necessary quantity without going into debt for it.
In other words, Hitler eliminated the international middlemen, and
threatened not only their dominion, but their very existence;  Vicount
Lynmington declared in May 1939 (in the _The New Pioneer_):  

"If we have a period of peace for only three years, the financial system
of Messrs. Frankfurter, Warburg, and Baruch and most of Wall Street, will
topple of its own accord." 

As a result, International money declared war on Hitler.  As quoted in
_The Word_ an English Monthly, "Marriner Eccles of the Federal Reserve
Board and Montagu Norman of the Bank of England agreed not later than 1935
on the joint policy of killing Hitler's financial experiment by all
methods, including war, if necessary."  If Hitler wasn't stopped, his
system would spread all over the world and be the utter ruination of their
parasitic system based on the creation of debt.  Even during the Polish
occupation in 1939 "lengthy negotiations were conducted by the British
Foreign Office and Mr. Chamberlain, and the German Foreign Office and
Hitler," in which the British (who of course were under the thumb of the
Bank "of England") "offered to stop the war if Germany would again agree
to a Gold Standard, while Germany offered to stop the war if the British
would agree to allow her to develop her barter-trade system and give her
back some of her colonies."   C.C. Veith, _Citadels of Chaos_, Meador,
1949.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:32 PDT 1996
Article: 64914 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Arabs Receive Threatening Letter
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:12:30 -0400
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The following is the text of the threatening letter distributed on May 8,
1995 to the mosques and Islamic centers around America.  For more
information on the letter, e-mail iapinfo@iap.org. or visit the home page
of the Islamic Association for Palestine: http://www.iap.org/.


-------------------begin text----------------------




                     JEWISH  DEFENCE  LEAGUE...

                          "KAHANE  CHAI"

               A WARNING TO THE "MUSLIM" COMUNITY:-

                      NO MORE WILL BE ISSUED :-



To those that have seen our strngth and our sense of purpose in recent

                  days in "LEBANON"...



A WARNING to all those Muslim activists, their families, their religious

leaders in their Mosques and Bookshops and charities in the West!



             WE ARE THE GOVERNMENTS HERE...

Look to those of us in the UNITED STATES Government, the senate and the

                       congress...

    Look to those of us  in the UNITED KINGDOMS Government...

Look to your so-called leaders who desperately run to make "PEACE"...

            "OUR PEACE" with our leaders in "ISRAEL"...



We have waited for this moment... We now have our peace and control

These governments from the BORDERS of RUSSIA to the RIVER NILE to the

Mountins of LEBANON to the Deserts of ARABIA...As promised to the

                   "JEWISH PEOPLE" _ A "GREATER ISRAEL"

IT grows day by day... We grow stronger as you MUSLIMS grow weaker and

   more disunited... Our "REVENGE" will be visited on your comunities

   Shortly...We know our enemies... We know how to deal with them...!



MAKE PEACE NOW...Stop your Acttivites on the Universty Campuses...

                    Stop your speakers NOW!

Stop opposing us or the same as has happened to LEBANON will be visited on

              your Mosques, your families, your leaders...



                   TAKE THIS "THREAT" SERIOUSLY!

LOOK AT THE PICTURE...KNOW THAT THIS CAN BE DONE TO YOU HERE!

             No action will be taken against the "JEWISH COMMUNITY"...

                No mater what happens to you Muslims.

         We control the Economy and Politics of these States...

                  No one dares  attack us any more...

               who dared to criticise us for LEBANON...

     Where is the U.N. or the USA or the UK...with us...part of us

                   No more "WEAK JEWS" to slaughter...

  We now slaughter our enemies as promised to us by the "ALMIGHTY".



Our  arm is long and if our people are attacked outside of ISRAEL we will

respond against the "MUSLIM COMMUNITY" around the world... our units are

already in place and trained...BE WARNED MUSLIMS YOUR LIVES ARE OURS

LIKE THE SHEEP TO THE BUTCHER...You will be delivered into our

  hands as has been "WRITTEN" in the "TORAH" and "TALMUD".

Remember as we know where to send this "WARNING" our units know where

  to come even to your "HOMES"...If our families are not safe then your

parents, wives and children are legitimate targets as are your homes,

   places of work, restaurants and mosques...WE WILL HAVE REVENGE!!!



THE   "KHANE CHAI" and its "FIGHTERS" who protect

                 THE JEWISH FAITH AND PEOPLE!



-----end text-------

Here is an Al-Akhbar news piece reporting on the letter:

-----begin text-------

Mosques and Islamic centers around America have received letter
threatening attacks on Muslim individuals and institutions "in the
West."  The letters, sent from the U.K. and allegedly singed by the
JDL (Jewsish Defense League and Kahane Chai, warn Muslim activists to
"stop opposing us or the same as has happened to Lebanon will be
visited on your mosques, your families, your leaders."  The letter
goes on to say, "Our units are already in place and trained...be
warned Muslims your lives are ours like the sheep to the butcher."  A
picture on the back of the one-page letter shows what appears to be a
dead or dying Lebanese child.  The letter says, "Look at the
picture...know that this can be done to you here!"  An Israeli flag
is superimposed on the front of the letter.   "The authenticity of
these letters cannot be established, but it is always prudent to be
cautious when it comes to the safety of the Muslim community," said
CAIR executive director Nihad Awad.  

----end text------

Of course Jews will claim: "it's a hoax!"

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:33 PDT 1996
Article: 64916 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Don't let Joel Rosenberg make an anti-Semite out of YOU!
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:09:11 -0400
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ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) wrote:

>   Steiner's prose is too powerful (as we shall see) to be
>paraphrased. (_Time_ devoted a major article to the book. A
>rare occurrence for a novel. Raspail's _Camp of the Saints_
>was accorded similar recognition.) The thrust of A.H.'s
>defense is that he, Adolf Hitler, was responsible for the
>restoration of Israel. That he was the Husbandman of the
>Jews, transforming them from a nation of sheep, who would
>meekly stand before an open pit to be machine-gunned, into a
>a nation of warriors, who could dump the bodies of slaugh-
>tered Arab children down the well at Deir Yassin, without
>losing a night's sleep afterwards. That A.H. had merely
>"pruned the vineyard" of rubbish, who would have proved an
>intolerable burden on a nation reborn: removing the "weeds,"
>that the "wheat" might flourish: eugenics on a mass-scale!
>   It wasn't the educated, financially secure Jew who was up-
>rooted. The builders and warrior stock had found refuge. It
>was the hopelessly backward _Stedl-yiddim_, who would be
>transformed from ballast into martyrs, infusing the Mythos
>with new vigor. That he, A.H., was the _necessary_ purifica-
>tion which had to take place, to transform sheep into lions,
>lions capable of ignoring the lamentation of those they had
>disposed, wailing for decades in camps within earshot. And if
>the disposed ones became too obnoxious in their despair, a
>few fragmentation bombs would suffice to silence them.
>   Steiner ends his novel by describing the sound of helicop-
>ters sent (one assumes) to blot out all trace of the trial--
>but not before the Judge, who had not understood the words,
>only their power, turned to the winds (as is the custom of
>his people) and pronounced his verdict:
>                      NOT GUILTY!


There's little doubting the "Holocaust" was the best thing that ever
happened to the Jews.  They know it. 


>   As a White Nationalist, this may engender an anti-Semitic
>response. Be on your guard against that! Remember that you're
>no longer worried about polio because of Salk and Sabin: two
>Jews. If literature's your focus, consider how much poorer
>the White Race-Culture would be without Heine, Kafka, Zweig,
>Mailer, Woody Allen (who should not be underrated) and a host
>of others. Classical music? Western Civilization without
>Mozart's _Le Nozze di Figaro_, _Don Giovanni_ and _Cosi fan
>Tutte_? No, Mozart wasn't Jewish; but Lorenzo da Ponte, who
>wrote the libretti was born a Jew, converted by his father to
>Catholicism (so he could go to school), became a priest
>(defrocked), wrote the libretti for Mozart's operas, eventu-
>ally settled in the U.S., taught Italian literature at Col-
>umbia Univ. and is buried in Hoboken, NJ. Mendelssohn? Max
>Bruch? Gustav Mahler? (None of them were "orthodox," many
>were converts, sincere or otherwise, to Christianity; but
>they were of Jewish origin. No question about that!)
>   So, keep your cool; keep your perspective; and never lose
>sight of the goal: the preservation and enrichment of the
>White Race-Cultural legacy. Keep posted on the host of new
>websites springing up, which are dedicated to just White-
>Nationalism (i.e. Race-Cultural integrity). DON'T LET JOEL
>ROSENBERG MAKE AN ANTI-SEMITE OUT OF YOU!

The contributions of Mr. Salk notwithstanding, no White man professing an
allegiance to his kind can effectively pursue any program of White renewal
without an unblinkered knowledge of the Jews' history of and active role
in the late decline of the European peoples.  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:34 PDT 1996
Article: 64917 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fascist Continent
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:12:32 -0400
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>Shriker replies:

>Maybe the saddest aspect of the ideology-religion of Nazism and its
"unique" 
>totalitarian culture, is that it was not an aberration.  It was, in fact,
the very 
>flower of European culture, and reflected the basic immorality of the
society.  Hitler's 
>was not the first but the _third_ reich.  As such, its essence was true
to form. 

Europe is "evil" because it wanted Europe for Europeans: a completely
natural desire. Yet I'll wager you find Israel justified for wanting
Israel for Jews.

>But note that in the 1930s we *Americans* weren't at each other's
throats--we pull 
>together in adversity, to our everlasting credit and their everlasting
shame.  

It is only -because- German pulled together as a people that they were
able to peform an economic miracle in 3 years, and pull out of a
depression into economic dominance.  It took the US 10 years to pull out. 
Germany rebuilt a national economy without the International financiers
and their "Gold Standard."  Hitler was doing too well without them.  He
had to go.  

>Though we have superficially similar social systems, we are _not_ them.  
Like >some of the Asians, the European governments, with the occasional
exception of >Britain, practice a hand-wringing hypercautious blind-eye
brand of diplomacy >that betrays the high values they claim to represent. 


huh?

>To give the most recent example, European diplomats, under orders from
their 
>governments, used the UN "dual key" policy to prevent NATO from
adequately >protecting the civilian population in Bosnia, which is fully
within the >European sphere of influence.  Let's be frank; our allies fear
a Moslem >sovereignty in the heart of Europe and want the Serbs or Croats
to defeat them. >They do not value ethnically and religiously integrated
societies, like Bosnia, >as we do.  After a fifty year hiatus,
concentration camps were busy in Europe >again, filling lime pits all over
Bosnia.

Look at what happened in Bosnia.  That is the inevitable result of all
multi-ethnic societies:  ethnic war.  So it shall be in America when the
economy crumbles further.  

There is already an undeclared defacto war against Whites.  There have
been millions of White crime and rape victims due just to black crime
-along- in the last 3 decades. What if Whites ever said:  "enough"?  

>As a multi-racial multi-cultural nation we are a potential Bosnia, let's
face >this fact. 

agreed

>No one (especially not the Europeans) will be able save us from the
demons >within ourselves that would be unleashed in a fascist America, so
we must keep >that from EVER happening!  

actually it is -especially- European tolerance, patience, and know-how
that fuels that runs the big multiracial Machine, without which things
would deteriorate further. No other race besides Whites have bestowed such
huge amounts of largesse to the ungrateful mud races of the world, bidding
them free entrance into White lands and even subsidizing their
reproduction over that of Whites.  Whites favored non-Whites over their
own people because of the peculiar White disease of liberalism, which is a
collective death wish arising from the absence of a positive, affirming
racial ethic.  The inadequate Chrisitianity usurped that need.  The nazis,
however, realized that according to the law of Nature one's race must
proudly affirm and assert itself or be overwhelmed and destroyed.  

Whites are the most innately altruistic race in the world and due to their
gross ignorance of the dangers involved they dispense this altruism freely
to the non-White races of the world, often assuming other races share the
altruistic trait. Non-whites pick up on this "nice guy" trait and exploit
it to the fullest, often in contempt of the "big stupid White guy." 

Whites keep getting their faces bloodied for their contemptible folly of
altruism towards non-whites which is never reciprocated or even
acknowledged.  However, White resentment has been steadily growing for
some time now.

>And that is why Holocaust Museums are so essential as teaching tools, to 
>show young people the inevitable consequence of unchecked racial hatreds.

The "Holocaust" is a bad example of ethnic hatred because it is untrue.
It's main use, besides collecting money for Israel and for more
propaganda, is to instill guilt in Whites for opposing their racial
dissolution.  Actually though, the fair treatment afforded by Nazis to
Jews is quite exceptional in the annals of ethnic conflict.  A more
characteristic example of ethnic brutality is Bosnian conflict, the Hutus
treatment of the Tsutsis, and the Jewish treatment of Palestinians.   

The above examples should teach you the insanity of promoting diversity. 
A multiracial society is not a permanent state but merely a struggle for
dominance between ethnic groups. It is merely a transitional phase.  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:35 PDT 1996
Article: 64919 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Irving Replies to Critics, Detractors
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:09:45 -0400
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>rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>******** Begin Irving's reply *********

>I am not a subscriber to the Internet, but over the last few months I
>have heard repeatedly about scurrilous materials which you have been
>posting on that medium; at least you have had the courage to put your
>name to them as author, although this lays you open to the kind of
>lawsuit which I have started conducting--and winning--here in the
>British courts.

>I have so far seen versions of your Shallit's Report, and of your
>"Lies of Our Times." You appear to be interested in the Truth, and
>that being so I am making these comments to assist you in the search
>for that elusive quantity. 

>It appears that your primary source is a handout or handouts of the
>Wiener Library (Dr David Cesarini) and of the Board of Deputies of
>British Jews, who have furnished the League of Human Rights of the
>B'nai Brith Canada with two lengthy secret reports which are the
>subject of dispute between me and the Board under both the Data
>Protection Act 1984 (the Board at first denied having any data on me),
>and the Defamation Act 1952 (the Board's solicitor is negotiating with
>me for permission to withdraw the reports in toto, in return for an
>undertaking by me not to pursue the matter in the courts).

>First, your "article" Lies of Our Times (forgive the quotation
>marks, but as you call me an "historian" it seems justified).

>3. David Irving 

>David John Cawdell Irving is a British "historian", born in 1938.
>* Correct.

>According to David Cesarani of the Wiener Library in London, England,
>he attended Imperial College at the University of London, but never
>graduated. He holds no academic degree and no academic position at any
>university or college.
>* Correct. The same can be said for Winston S. Churchill, Thomas
>Babington Macaulay (The History of England), and the Gibbon who wrote
>The Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire, etc. Would you denigrate
>them as "historians" too?

>He calls himself a "moderate fascist", 
>* Incorrect. Please produce the source of this spurious and
>libellous allegation.  

>and claims, among other things that the gas chambers at Auschwitz (in
>which an estimated 2-3 million people died) were "built by the Poles
>after the war as a tourist attraction." 
>* Not quite correct. I stated (on April 21, 1990 and other occasions):
>"The gas chamber which is shown to the tourists in Auschwitz is a
>dummy (Atrappe) built after the war by the Polish communists as a
>tourist attraction." In 1990, Dr Franciszek Piper, the then director
>of the Auschwitz State Museum & Archives, confirmed that this is
>true. As recently as 1995 the present directors confirmed in an
>interview with Eric Conan, of the well-known liberal French weekly
>L'Express, that the gas chamber shown to the tourists was constructed
>on the orders of the Polish communist government in 1948. "Tout y est
>faux," reported Conan, and the deputy chief of the site stated: "Pour
>l'instant, on la laisse en l'etat et on ne prcise rien au visiteur.
>C'est trop compliqu. On verra plus tard" (L'Express, January 26,
>1995). 

>(For this remark, he was fined DM 10,000 by a Munich court in May
>1992.
>* Correct. On January 13, 1993 the fine was increased to
>DM30,000 in view of my refusal to retract the statement. (Why should
>I? It was true). In addition, on July 1, 1993 I was permanently banned
>from setting foot in the German Federal Archives, which had benefited
>over the years from my donations of half a ton of archival material
>including the diaries of Canaris, Himmler, Rommel, etc., which I had
>located, and which they have now had to relinquish to me; and on
>November 13, 1993 I was permanently banned from Germany. How's that
>for freedom of speech!

>The judge was quoted as saying that the gas chambers of Auschwitz were
>"an historically certain fact.") 
>* Correct. The word used is offenkundig, and is used in German law to
>deny defence lawyers the introduction of any defence exhibits or
>witnesses, e.g. the aforementioned Dr Franciszek Piper whom we were
>prepared to call. There has been an outcry in the German legal
>profession against these methods, and Germany is to face a rebuke from
>the United Nations for her repression of freedom of opinion by such
>means. Of course, if you believe they are correct to adopt such
>tactics, such is your right.

>Irving denies being a "Holocaust denier" or "Hitler apologist",
>and seems willing to resort to legal action if necessary.
>* Correct. Last year one of Britain's biggest Sunday newspapers
>was forced to pay me substantial damages after they printed such a
>libel. I issued a Libel Writ in the High Court. (For legal reasons,
>namely the settlement agreed, I am not permitted to identify the
>newspaper or the amount, except off the record). I am currently
>pursuing Libel action in the British courts against The Observer,
>Deborah Lipstadt, (whose odious little tract has been foolishly
>published here, i.e. within the jurisdiction, by Penguin UK Ltd) and
>Svenska Dagbladet. You have been warned!

>In a recent fax printed in the K-W Record, he is reported as saying,
>"I have warned 22 British newspapers that I shall not hesitate to
>commence libel action if they use smear phrases such like 'Hitler
>apologist' or 'Holocaust denier' to embellish their writings." But
>Bernard Levin, writing in The Times of London in May of this year,
>quoted Irving as saying, "I hope the court will fight a battle for the
>German people and put an end to the blood lie of the Holocaust which
>has been told against this country for 50 years."  Irving first
>entered the headlines in 1970. 
>* Incorrect. Ever since 1963 my books have been the subject
>of wide comment and much praise in the British media.

>In July of that year, he was forced to apologize in the High Court of
>London for "making a wholly untrue and highly damaging statement about
>a woman writer."--not an auspicious start for someone who claims to be
>in pursuit of the truth.
>* Correct. A Sunday Express journalist, Jill -----, stated that Rolf
>Hochhuth, the German playwright and one of my closest friends
>had granted her an exclusive interview. Hochhuth assured me he had not
>even spoken to her. I mentioned this in a letter to the newspaper's
>editor. She sued. As I was fighting the hideously costly PQ.17 Libel
>Action at the time, I had no alternative but to settle out of court--
>"shortening the front," is what military commanders call such action.
>Make of that what you will. Nothing has been heard of that
>"journalist" since.

>Later that year, Irving was back in the headlines, concerning
>publication of his book, "The Destruction of Convoy PQ17". Ostensibly
>an expose of an ill-fated 1942 Arctic convoy headed for the Soviet
>Union during World War II, it eventually resulted in Irving being
>fined 40,000 British pounds for libel. 
>* Incorrect. In actions for Libel--a tort--the defendant is
>not fined, but can be required to pay damages. The book was published
>by Simon & Schuster and other leading pubishers around the world.
>Not bad for an "historian", eh?

>Irving's book faulted Captain John Broome, commander of the convoy at
>the time, saying he was guilty of "downright disobedience" and
>"downright desertion of the convoy." 
>* Incorrect. No such allegations or quotations are contained
>within the book.

>Broome brought suit against Irving for false statements, and won a
>judgment in August of 1970. Irving's lawyers appealed, and lost in
>March, 1971.
>* Correct. We then appealed to the House of Lords, twice, and
>lost 4-to-3,which is a pretty close call. Needless to say the insurers
>of Cassell & Co Ltd, the British publishers, would not have
>authorised such defence actions had their counsel not studied all the
>documents available and concluded that we had a powerful defence,
>based on the Admiralty records; this they in fact did, and wrote
>Opinions to that effect. Libel actions in Britain are tried by jury.
>Make of that what you will.

>The case is revealing because of what it says about Irving's abilities
>as a historian and his motives as an author. According to The Times
>of London, Irving showed a copy of the manuscript to Broome before
>publication. 
>* Correct. I showed the late Captain Broome the mansucript in
>1966, and he agreed to read it and make comment (as did a score of
>other officers involved); breaking his undertaking, he alone decided
>not to co-operate, but to wait for publication and then sue for
>profit. So be it.

>Broome objected to the accuracy of some thirty passages in the book,
>and threatened to sue for libel if Irving did not make changes.
>* Incorrect. He objected in reality to six words ("Captain
>Broome was a broken man"), and after these words were expunged, years
>later, his lawyers permitted the book's republication by William
>Kimber
>Ltd.

>At that point, William Kimbers Ltd., Irving's publisher, notified him
>that they would not publish the book as it was then written.
>* Incorrect. I was in dispute with William Kimber after they
>paid me only £67 instead of the agreed fee of £200 for
>translating the book, The Memoirs or Field-Marshal Wilhelm Keitel.
>This being so, I removed the PQ17 manuscript physically from their
>offices; Kimber's secretary came running down the street after me,
>pleading for me to return it. I keep a very detailed diary of events.
>In court, Kimber, already probably suffering from the Parkinsonism
>from which he later died, gave a totally different version, namely
>yours; he later apologised to me, which did not assist me much of
>course. Unfortunately, our counsel elected to call no witnesses in the
>case but to rest of securely on the Admiralty documents.

>Later, Irving published the book with another publisher.
>The court found that Irving "was warned from most responsible quarters
>that his book contained libels on Captain Broome ... To make [the
>book] a success he was ready to risk libel actions ... Documentary
>evidence .... showed that [Irving] had deliberately set out to attack
>Captain Broome and in spite of the most explicit warnings persisted in
>his attack because it would help sell the book." The court labeled
>Irving's conduct as "outrageous and shocking."  Irving's
>misrepresentations did not end with the publication of his book.
>According to Cesarani, in 1979 a German publisher had to pay
>compensation to the father of Anne Frank after printing the German
>edition of Irving's book, Hitler's War. Irving had claimed that Anne
>Frank's diary was a forgery.
>* Correct as written. Without consulting me, the Ullstein Verlag
>publishing firm, part of the pro-Israeli Axel Springer Group) made
>some unspecified payment to Otto Frank at his demand. I had already
>halted production and publication of the book for other reasons
>(tampering by Ullstein with my text). The German Bundeskriminalamt
>found that parts of the diary had been written in (post-war) ballpoint
>ink-paste, which made its authenticity problematic. My opinion on it
>now is ambivalent: it is unimportant, not a historical document of any
>value.

>Irving claims that according to his "research", the Holocaust
>is greatly exaggerated.
>* Correct. I think the figures have been magnified
>by an Order of Magnitude. Events in Auschwitz alone suggest that I am
>right:: here the figure has been effortlessly brought down from 4
>million to 1 million, and now to even less.

>(He was recently quoted in the K-W Record as saying that the number of
>Jews who died in concentration camps was "of the order of 100,000 or
>more.")
>* Incorrect. Do you really believe all the newspapers say? I
>may have said "killed", not "died".

>But during the 1988 trial of pro-Nazi publisher Ernst Zundel, he was
>forced to admit under cross-examination that he hadn't even read all
>of Eichmann's 1960 trial testimony. (In this testimony, Eichmann
>admitted that Nazi leaders discussed the so-called "Final Solution to
>the Jewish problem"--extermination, in 1942.) 
>* Incorrect. I have Eichmann's manuscript memoirs, given to
>me in Buenos Aires in November 1991. He states that to him Final
>Solution always meant the Madagascar Solution. Anyway, do you really
>want to base your case on the utterances of a Nazi war criminal?

>In November 1991, a reporter from The Independent showed that Irving
>omitted crucial lines from a translation of Goebbels' diaries--lines
>that would have contradicted his theory that Hitler knew nothing about
>the extermination of the Jews. 
>* Incorrect. Which "crucial lines" am I supposed to
>have omitted?

>Irving's record is clear: he is not an historian, and he has made
>false statements and been forced to apologize for them. As Andrew
>Cohen, reporter for the Financial Post, has said, "David Irving should
>be denied credibility."
>* Well, that really wants to make me hang up my shingle: namely,
>that a shyster from a money-rag doesn't believe me. What a waste of
>kilobytes, when there are megabytes of reputable historians saying
>precisely the opposite about me.

>Yours sincerely,


>David Irving
>Focal Point Publications

--------end text------------

Kurt Stele








From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 64923 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg is a Swarthy, Geeky Little Jew
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:42:05 -0400
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <514882$eeo@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
>(william c anderson) wrote:

>[snip]

>> Hey, Joel--as a descendant of both Vikings and Druids, I hereby grant
>> you officially permission to plunder the Aryan cultural heritage.  Go
>> for it, Joel.

>You mean _plunger_, don't you Bill? Considering that Aryan "culture"
>generally resides in a toilet, I think that was the word you were looking
>for.... 

>Mark

It is always good to see the exterminationists reveal the true animus
behind the Holohoax Tale:  to defame, slander and destroy the White
culture and race they hate so vehemently.  Verily, we see the primary use
of the Holocaust Lie.

Kurt Stele


>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil
passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
------



From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:36 PDT 1996
Article: 64925 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GIWER: A true "revisionist"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:43:25 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <512h3s$3b7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Kurt Stele  wrote:
>>
>>Now go back to work and find me a nazi gas chamber somewhere.  Step on
it.

>    Been there, done that.  Try Birkenau - Bischoff wrote to Kammler
about
>it in '43.  What part of "Vergasungskeller" don't you understand?

Oh yeah.  Those "gas chambers" they built -after- the war, after the
existing structures were ruined, and the Soviets refused to allow
journalists to see them.  Nice bit of craftwork.  

Love your after-market gas chambers.

Kurt Stele

>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the
official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 01:07:37 PDT 1996
Article: 64930 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Supremely Intelligent Morons Censor History
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:48:56 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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wackywatch@aol.com (WackyWatch) wrote:

>Supremely Intelligent Morons Censor History

>BACKGROUND: Ever since Bradley Smith was denied purchase of a
>Holocaust history opinion advertisement in the Daily Texan, the student
>newspaper at the University of Texas, other adults have found our
>supremely bright children lucrative audiences. Khalid Muhammed makes
>good money speaking to black children about the African Holocaust
>(200,000,000 Africans exterminated during 200 years of WASP slavery).

>Now David Duke is being reportedly paid $4,000 to speak to children at
>Cal State Northridge. The Civil Rights activist is being paid only
$1,000.

>Seem that wrong history speech censorship quadruples speech value?

>Had Smith not been denied by Hollywood/Harvard thought Control
>Kapos the right to purchase his ads - he d been gone, or broke by now.
>But the supremely intelligent censor morons have made him into a history
>celebrity - solely because Smith is able to perform simple arithmetic. 

>A History Moron is someone unable to perform simple arithmetic. Most
>supremely intelligent history censors cannot cope with Smith s arithmetic
>questions about the Auschwitz 4,000,000. (Pres. Ford paid homage to the
>Auschwitz 4,000,000 (all Jews according to L.A. Times) on 7/30/75.

>The supremely intelligent edu.-net pedophile types in internet history
>revisionism news groups simply Deny the Auschwitz 4,000,000 often by
>dismissing ordinary American-American s  with vile ad hominen labels.

like the label of "anti-semitism"?

Kurt Stele

>In general, anyone using vile names when discussing history should be
>considered a  history moron  - supremely intelligent, but math deficient.

>T.
> 
>macZuga ..for more about edu.net WASPs history censorship hysteria,
visit:
>http://members.aol.com/HistoryNOT - history WASPs want to censor
>http://members.aol.com/WackyWatch - the Weird World of WASP Supremacists
>http://home.aol.com/WASPnot - Why WASPs hate WOGs - Immigration History
>http://home.aol.com/SalaryPlan -  the WASP's anti-WOG Glass/Iron Ceiling
>http://members.aol.com/UofHKausT - Free - Bix Six Confidential SPC
Secrets



From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:02 PDT 1996
Article: 64959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's Big Whopper
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:10:55 -0400
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <50ot91$22b@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:


>> That is what I have been trying to do for the past 22 posts.  Somehow
you
>> people just don't seem to get the idea-maybe you are dense..Why can't
you
>> jjust admit that the Streicher sentence was unjust?  Oh well, I suppose
your
>> 20 odd posts already testify to that fact.


>Mr. Blackmore/Belling:
> 
>Are you stupid?
> 
>Many people have ALREADY agreed that Streicher's sentence was unjust.
> 
>But his SENTENCE (the decision of the Court) and his being a PORNOGRAPHER
>(publishing pornography) are TWO SEPERATE THINGS. 
> 
>LET ME TRY IN AGAIN IN LITTLE WORDS:
> 
>STREICHER WAS ***NOT*** SENTENCED FOR BEING A PORNOGRAPHER. HE WAS
>SENTENCED FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

>Sara

Sara, I know you're not going to answer this but what's the difference
between a "crime against humanity" and the Israelis' torturing and
butchering of Palestians?

Just wondering.

"The 'questioning' comprises making Palestinian stand for days at a time,
shackling them in contorted or bent-over positions and confining them in
tiny chairs or closet-like cubicles. Routinely deprived of sleep, the
detainees are forced to relieve themselves in their clothing and are
exposed to extremes of heat and cold while being bombarded with loud,
nonstop music.  One of the worst forms of torture is "hooding," compelling
those held for questioning to wear foul-smelling canvas sacks over their
heads for days on end."  

[Chicago Tribune, June 15, 1994]

Kurt Stele

>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:02 PDT 1996
Article: 64974 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another 'Revisionist Breakthrough': NO WAR IN CECHNIA!
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:35:57 -0400
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On 9 Sep 1996 22:14:43 -0400, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>>Question:  how come one can question Chechnya casualty figures all day
>>long but if one question Holocaust casualty figures one is called an
>>"anti-semite" and could be thrown in jail?
>>
>>Answer:  jewish money-power.

>Why is Kurt Stele known as an anti-semite?

>Answer: remarks like the one above.

Merely noting the influence of jewish-money makes one an "anti-semite"?

More and more I realize the importance of being "anti-semitic."

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:03 PDT 1996
Article: 64975 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!noos.hooked.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Talmud:  Jewish Book of Hate
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:16:49 -0400
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"niegtal"  wrote:

>This particular post brings up something I heard -- that MEIN KAMPF is
just
>now being translated into HEbrew for Israelis. I find that astounding. I
>keep a copy of MEIN KAMPF right by my pc, it's my encyc on evil -- as in
>Spinoza, ideas perpetrated based on ignorance. 

>be-ahavah ve-shalom, Etheljean of Creekbend

So you think Mein Kamp is hateful?  Ah, that's tame stuff.  Try the TALMUD
on for size:


------begin text---------
 

This study is based on the Jewish-authorized, English translation of the

Babylonian Talmud: the Soncino edition. Every selection we cite is

documented directly from the text of the authoritative Soncino Talmud. We

have published herein the authenticated sayings of the Jewish Talmud. Look

them up for yourself. To verify the Talmud passages cited, refer to the

Soncino edition Talmud, which may be found in large university and
seminary

libraries. The Soncino Talmud may also be purchased from book dealers.



Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye

are designated men"). Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of

Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals

("she-asses").



Jews are Divine Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the

Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.



O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile

("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.



Jews Have Superior Legal Status Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite

gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a

Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."



Jews May Steal from Non-Jews Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object
lost

by a Gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also
in

Baba Kamma 113b).



Sanhedrin 76a . God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an

old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a

Cuthean..."



Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a
Gentile

("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a

Gentile he may keep.



Baba Kamma 37b. Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has

"exposed their money to Israel."



Jews May Lie to Non-Jews Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies
("subterfuges")

to circumvent a Gentile.



Non-Jewish Children Sub-Human Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are

animals.



Abodah Zarah 36b . Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from

birth.



Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.



Abodah Zarah 67b . "The vessels of Gentiles, do they not impart a worsened

flavor to the food cooked in them?"



Gittin 57a . Says Jesus ( see footnote #4) is being boiled "hot
excrement".



Israel Shahak reports that the Zionists burned hundreds of New Testament

books in Occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish

Religion, p. 21).



Yebamoth 63a . Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.



Hagigah 27a . States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.



Genocide Advocated by Talmud Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is

the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the
best

of the Gentiles should all be killed").



This passage is not from the Soncino edition but is from the original

Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia,

published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the

entry, "Gentile," (p. 617).



This original Talmud passage has been concealed in translation. The Jewish

Encyclopedia states that, "...in the various versions the reading has been

altered, The best among the Egyptians being generally substituted." In the

Soncino version: "the best of the heathens" (Minor Tractates, Soferim

41a-b]. Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave

of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of

non-Jews. ("Jewish Press" of June 9, 1989, p. 56B).



On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an
orthodox

Jew from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children,

while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the

late Rabbi Kahane who has stated that his view of Arabs as "dogs" is "from

the Talmud." (Cf. CBS "60 Minutes", "Kahane").



Univ. of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldsteins

philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence
against

"goyim," a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p.
5).



Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood

and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989,

p.5). Rabbi Yaacov Perrin says, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish

fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).



------end text-------

Kurt Stele



From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:04 PDT 1996
Article: 64976 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele:  is he George J. Lehmann's illegitimate son?
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:38:18 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <514882$eeo@lendl.cc.emory.edu> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) writes:
>>From: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
>>Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg is a Swarthy, Geeky Little Jew
>>Date: 10 Sep 1996 17:24:18 GMT

>>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:
>>: 
>>: Have you all seen a picture of Joel Rosenberg? It's on the sleeve of
his
>>: new pulp fantasy-novel _The Silver Stone_ and on his home page.

>>: One look at the man will explain why he would be into carrying "large
>>: guns" like the Desert Eagle and interested in writing fantasies about
>>: being a hero.


>>Gee, Mr. "Stele"--I thought you nice Aryan Warriors weren't into
personal
>>attack.

>>: 
>>: In contrast, on the front of Joel's pulp-fantasy novels are many
>>: Nordic-looking people. 

>Well, no.  There are reproductions of *paintings* on the covers of my
books.  
>People, be they "Nordic-looking" or not, would get kind of tired being
stuck 
>to the covers. 

>(And what, by the way, are pulp-fantasy novels?  You and George do seem
to 
>have a mutual fixation on the term -- did you both get it from your Mom?)

>>:In fact, Joel's material is derivative from Irish
>>: and Norse legends, as one obligatory reviewer observed. 

>What's an "obligatory reviewer"?  Gee, I've been supporting myself and my

>family as a professional writer for more than a dozen years now, and I've

>never heard that term.  

>Maybe even you have something to teach me, Kurtsie.  

>So, tell me, o aryan uberunteraroundunthroughmentch:  what'sat?

>>: In fact, one of
>>: his main characters is "Karl Cullinane" (Ever heard of the Irish hero
>>: Cuchalain?  Yep.)  

>I sure have.  He's probably going to appear in the new series, although I

>haven't decided yet. 

>>:His stuff is nothing more than Tolkien kitsch with
>>: Yiddish characters and schtick. Talk about cultural theft.

>Yiddish characters?  Certainly there are some Jewish characters in my
books, 
>bubbie, but you should read a little more closely.  

>Move your lips; I don't mind.  (I know, I know:  that's what everybody
says to 
>your Mom.)  

>>: 
>>: What a Jew for taking Norse mythos and putting in Jewish characters.
Joel,
>>: can't you at least stick to your people's own legends and fantasy
without
>>: taking ours out on loan?  Oh, but I forgot -- anything for commerical
>>: gain, eh?  Quite a desecration of Norse and Irish mythology I should
say.


>>Hey, Joel--as a descendant of both Vikings and Druids, I hereby grant
>>you officially permission to plunder the Aryan cultural heritage.  Go
>>for it, Joel.

>Thanks, Bill; I appreciate it.   

you would do it anyway, with or without permission from Bill.

Kurt Stele


>(And for somebody whose never read any of my books, Kurt sure seems to
have a 
>lot of opinions about them.  Just like George.  Hmmm... think they're
related? 
>Kurt's Mom was working that Alta Loma streetcorner for the longest time,
and 
>she did give freebies to people even pretending to be Marines, so that
nobody 
>ever could say she was rotten to The Corps.)

>As to the Guardians books, Kurt should have read a bit closer.  The hero
of 
>the series isn't Karl Cullinane (who, by the way, has been dead for the
last 
>several books) -- it's the balding, not particularly heroic engineer, Lou

>Riccetti.   

>Hell, even the other characters know that, and have pointed it out from
time 
>to time.


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.



From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:05 PDT 1996
Article: 64978 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goring's Commission to Heydrich
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:47:31 -0400
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Grblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>My point is that Van Alstine attempted to use the document which Goering
addressed to Heydrich as actual evidence to support the contention that
Goering knew the Jews were to be exterminated at this point in time, and
that he was commissioning Heydrich to do it.  Further, my point is that
the document does not suggest this at all.  I then went on to quote Arno
Mayer as well as Kogon et. al.  I am aware of the criticism Arno Mayer has
received for the reasons you stated.  I also address this point in another
thread somewhere, as well as the name-calling and personal attacks used so
often on this web-site.
>
>These tactics really need to cease if we are to reach a more complete
understanding as to what actually DID happen to the Jewish people and why
during the second world war.
>
>rb

They want anything -but- that.  That would mean the end of a most
lucrative little Fairy Tale.  

I think that should help explain the name-calling.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:06 PDT 1996
Article: 64988 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:  Jews death-threat St. Martin employees
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:23:49 -0400
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <4vmr28$q80@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>> Holohuggers continue to claim the employees of St. Martin's publishing
>> house were not threatened physically.  For newcomers, St. Martin's is
the
>> firm forced to cancel David Irving's book contract due to threats and
>> pressure from the jewish ADL and other jews. Holohuggers were already
>> given the cite of _Time_ magazine April 15, 1996 which explicitly says
>> that the employees complained of death threats.  

>The relevant quote is:

>"St. Martin's chairman Thomas J. McCormack denied that his house had 
>succumbed to "coercion," which included a swelling tide of unfavorable 
>press stories, criticism from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith 
>and, according to some employees, telephoned death threats." 

>(Time Magazine, April 15, 1996.)

>I fail to see where it says that Jews were responsible for the death
>threats, but then we all know that you were lying when you made that
>claim.

Yeah, sure it wasn't Jews who called in the "death threats."  Just like it
wasn't Jews who forced the cancellation of the David Irving's book
contract.  It was all just "an independent staff decision."  

Yeah, yeah that's it.

Nobody's fooled Rajiv.

Kurt Stele

>> Holohuggers have difficulty deducing facts which do not suit their
>> religious opinions. Sometimes you have to repeat things several times
>> before they can understand, if then.

>You are an idiot. You are an idiot. You are an idiot. You are an idiot.


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:06 PDT 1996
Article: 64994 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If Ole walks like a duck, and Ole talks like a....
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:22:17 -0400
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>The issue isn't witches, Mr. Kreiberg. The issue is whether or
>not a sovereign people - the Germans, in this case - have a
>right to pass laws. Clearly, they do. And just as clearly, Mr.
>Lauck knowingly and openly - brazenly, one might opine - broke
>those laws for years. And, just as clearly, he flaunted his
>lawbreaking and rubbed Germany's nose in it. Then, not being
>the brightest of Nazi rabble, he put himself within reach of
>German justice, and got four years in the slammer to think
>about it. 

Fine, McVay.  If the Germans are indeed a sovereign people with the right
to pass laws imprisoning Lauck for his thoughts, then certainly the
Germans in the 1930's had the right to pass laws deporting Jews.  You just
said they are a sovereign people with the right to pass laws.

McVay says it's OK to suppress views McVay disagrees with, but it is not
OK to suppress -his- views.

These holocausters love to play both sides the street.  They love to
denounce Nazis as suppressive.  Yet they uphold suppression when it
benefits them.   

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:07 PDT 1996
Article: 64999 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NOMINATION: Tom Moran for KOTM
Date: 13 Sep 1996 05:02:16 -0400
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>

>Subject:      Desert Ostrich
>From:         tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>Date:         1996/09/06
>Message-Id:   <3230368a.2166571@news.pacificnet.net>
>Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
>Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

>        Then there is the "Desert Eagle". This is a semi-automatic hand
>gun that can come in a .357 model or 44 caliber.  Therefore, in
>relation to a size/caliber ratio, such as exemplified in comparing a
>22 caliber to a 9mm semi-automatic, everything must be proportionally
>larger, the hand grip, the frame and the barrel. This makes it so big
>and cumbersome that it would only suit some species that may be from
>the Land Of The Giants, Goliath's homeland, and not suitable for real
>human beings.

>        Because of its disproportionate unwieldy size in relation to the
>average human physique the gun is not any good for serious competition
>shooting, nor is any good as a personal carry weapon, home protection
>weapon, or for any police or military applications.

>        It is for the very most part just an implement of bravado.

>

>Nobody on a.r. has been able to determine what this has to do with
>the Holocaust or revisionism; perhaps the denizens of a.u.k. can
>help.  Meanwhile, I invite other a.r. regulars to post your favorite
>Moranisms in support of this nomination.  Support our boy!

>Bill

I find it relevant.  Tom Moran is making an observation about the nature
of Jews, the proponents of the Holocaust, by examining their myths and
weapons. 

It is a culturally-inculcated Jewish trait, if not an outright tradition,
to exaggerate. Exaggeration is present in the Old Testament, where one can
find tales of Sampson slaying hundreds of men singlehandedly in the same
battle, or Israelites travelling in a "land of giants," along with
numerous other tall tales. 

The Talmud speaks in Gittin 57b of four -billion- Jews killed by the
Romans in the city of Bethar (and we thought the "Holocaust" was a bad
Jewish exaggeration).  Gittin 58a claims that 16 million Jewish children
were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive.

The Jewish proclivity to tell tall tales stems from their invariable
status as a numerical minority in an alien land. Tall Tales create vivid
and dramatic myths about "giant foes" which cohere the Jewish people, and
generate guilt or sympathy in their hosts. The primary myth combines the
theme of eternal persecution on the on hand, with the theme of superiority
on one hand ("God's chosen"). These two create an "us versus them"
mentality, and an "us over them" mentality, potently unifying the Jewish
people vis a vis their host. Along with the overweening chauvanism
inherent in the Jewish myth, the expectation of eternal persecution
becomes, as one would expect, a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

Jewish bravado compensates for a lack of an heroic, or even strong
masculine tradition and is related to the dominance of the Jewish
matriarch.  The "Jewish mother" looms largely in Jewish society, and
typically thwarts the development within the Jewish male of a strong sense
of masculinity.  This in turn often causes a counter-reaction through
which the Jewish male seek to prove he is a man by owning "a big gun" or
through seeking to bed as many women as possible.  He unconsciously seeks
to liberate himself from the dominance of his mother.

The Jewish penchant for exaggeration and melodrama inheres the Jewish
Holocaust Tale. The same traits, along with Jewish bravado, are expressed
in Jewish weapons such as the Desert Eagle.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:08 PDT 1996
Article: 65000 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg is Slandering Jew
Date: 13 Sep 1996 05:02:27 -0400
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On 9 Sep 1996 21:35:13 -0400, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:


>>Go ahead.  Report me to AOL.  It is the jewish modus operandi to shut
down
>>opposition with legalism, personal attacks and slander, jewish-money
>>pressure and when that fails, terrorism.  

>And I knew it would be too hard for you. After your tirade directed at
Joel,
>you couldn't resist the temptation to engage in a little racism and
bigotry,
>could you?

>Pot. Kettle. Black.

Calling it racism and bigotry does not refute the assertion.  

You guys forget how to argue sometimes.  That's what happens to
Holocausters after a while -- they get flabby from patting each other on
the back over and over.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:09 PDT 1996
Article: 65005 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:45:11 -0400
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>Kurt Stele wrote:
>> 
>> >  -- documents found
>> 
>> the amount is both suspicious and threadbare.  Nowhere near the amount
>> which would have existed if "extermination" had actually been a
>> governmental objective

>Funny, when the Nuremburg trials began in 1946, the documents filled
>some six boxcars.

and out of all that they were only able to extract a paltry handful, and
even those being questionable, to support their allegations.  Nothing like
the huge paper trail that would have been found had extermination been
ordered.

And you think that meets your burden of proof?

>By your methods of histriography, we cannot say that Dresden
>was bombed, nor that teh Civil War ever took place.

You analogy is misplaced.  There is nothing contradictory or irregular
about the bombing of Dresden, nor is there a case to be made against
Dresden's occurrence. If there is someone has yet to bring it forward in a
cogent documented fashion.  

In contrast, the Holocaust smells fishy.  There is much anomaly and
irregularity in the Holocaust theory (the crematories' output, the large
number of contradictions in the eyewitness testimonies and the SS
confessions, the so called "secret" about Auschwitz and the absence of
reports that came out during the war, along with the "gas chambers" being
destroyed and "rebuilt," not permitted anyone to view the pictures of the
camps before they were destroyed). A long list continues.  

Also, one is allowed to discredit or deny the Civil War or Dresden. But
Jewish money-power has created strong taboos and prohibitions against
questioning the Holocaust, and in Germany revisionism has been
criminalized. Such naked, heavy-handed suppression in an age of vaunted
enlightenment, has aroused not only a deserved contempt but a good deal of
suspicion.  Undoubtedly this hypocrisy has been noted by intellects all
over the world.  

Dresden or the Civil War does not have one-tenth of the evidentiary
problems the Holocaust does.  The Holocaust's glaring evidentiary problems
is why revisionism came into being. I do not know of a revisionist
movement in existence questioning the deaths of Dresden or the Civil War,
except regarding ancillary details perhaps. Such revisionist movements
have not arisen despite the ease with which one may question these
historical events.  There are not large evidentiary problems with the
deaths involved in them.  

Yet despite the punitive dangers of questioning the Holocaust, there is a
growing revisionist movement questioning the Holocaust, precisely because
its discrepancies are far too great to ignore.

You holocausters are fond of discounting anyone who questions the
Holocaust tale as Jew-haters and immoral.  Yet there are far too various
people questioning the Holocaust today to dismiss them all as
anti-semitic.  That smear tactic, used to silence and conceal the
Holocaust's foibles, is losing its effectiveness. 

Kurt Stele

>Brian Harmon
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:10 PDT 1996
Article: 65017 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Milton Kleim
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:48:06 -0400
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Annie Alpert  wrote:

>Milton Kleim wrote:
>> As for my _National Socialism Primer_, obviously I no longer advance it
as a legitimate and realistic political tome.  In fact, I have requested
>> several sites, including Don Black's Stormfront, to remove it.  Some
have> removed it; Black refuses to remove it, or even acknowledge my
requests.

>Seems like a copyright issue to me -- but don't hold your breath waiting
>for Don to do the right thing.  I guess I'm a little bitter because he
>woudln't let me post in the white nationalist listserv because I don't
>agree with him.  So much for the right to free speech.

don't you bed-wetting liberals have enough forums you already -dominate-
in the mainstream media and in academia?  I'm glad your shrill gibberish
is muted in at least one place.

Holocauster can spout her pap on the airwaves all day while revisionists
are censored, and she's complaining about a lack of free speech.

Kurt Stele

>-- 
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:10 PDT 1996
Article: 65025 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving bashes Internet for telling the truth
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:50:38 -0400
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>At a sparsely attended appearance in Oakland this evening, David Irving,
>author of a number of critically panned books attempting to exonerate the
>Nazi leadership for war crimes, blamed "the traditional enemy," "powerful
>organized groups," and "a secret conspiracy" (none of which he would
name,
>or give specifics about) for his unpopularity as a writer, but he
reserved
>special scorn for the Internet, described as "a cesspool."

Please quote at least the entire sentence in which David describes the
internet as a cesspool.

>While I'm sure Mr. Irving could not tell a URL from a college degree,
>neither of which he possesses, 

I know plenty of people with college degrees who don't know their ass from
their elbow. Lack of a college degree is not conclusive of anything,
especially considering today's McColleges.

>It was clear that he was talking about
>affiliates of The Nizkor Project, which has earned the praise of every
>significant civil liberties group on the net for its practice of
>countering noxious ideas and lies with more ideas and truth, not
>censorship -- not to mention the Order of British Columbia for its
founder
>and director, Ken McVay.

I would agree with Irving if he was including Nizkor in the "cesspool."

>Mr. Irving, in the context of describing his lifelong dedication to
>studying the Nazi era in a sympathetic light, and his efforts to get
>himself taken seriously, suggested, presumably without intended irony,
>that Jamie McCarthy, a Macintosh and web programmer who webmasters for
the
>Nizkor Project part-time on a volunteer basis, should "get over his
>obsession and find something better to do with his life" and stop writing
>"garbage"  such as the letters posted to
>http://www.nizkor.org/people/i/irving-david/correspondence/

I still haven't seen anything unreasonable, or even inaccurate, in
Irving's Oakland speech so far.

>Mr. Irving blamed "lies on the Internet" for contributing greatly to the
>decision of St. Martin's press not to publish his book, forcing his
>readers to obtain the existing UK edition from any of a half dozen
>distributors in the United States, such as the IHR,
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/american/ihr/

>And yet a couple of non-wired folks at the Wiesenthal Center are still
>saying that hate groups and Holocaust deniers love the Internet because
>it's so easy to spread their propaganda there.

>And while most of the press is waking up, you still see the odd story
>about "the debate between 'Jewish and anti-hate groups' and 'free-speech
>activists,'" as if that's an accurate description of what's going on.

>It's called freedom of speech, stupid.

Rich, by Irving saying that "lies on the internet" contributed to the
cancellation of his book contract by St. Martin's under Jewish pressure,
he wasn't -necessarily- denouncing the Internet as a means of
communication.  That is what you appear to be making Irving say. I don't
see it at all. 

However, I -do- see the Simon Weisenthal Center pushing for censorship of
the Internet.

You are trying to make Irving out to be "against the Internet."  You seem
to be trying to put him in the same category as the Simon Weisenthal
Center.  You haven't made much of a case for it.  He seems to have been
merely stating that the primary source of dissemination for the ongoing
Lies against him on -this- occasion happened to be the internet.  

You headed this post "David Irving BASHES the Internet."  You have spun a
rather sweeping conclusion out of very little substance. 

Could it be that Holocaust-think gradually inclinates one to do that?

Kurt Stele

>[Memo to folks planning to attend his talk in DC: don't expect Irving to
>lie about the Time Magazine review of "Germany Must Perish" anymore now
>that he knows that the text is available to anyone in the world with net
>access.]

>-rich


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 09:38:11 PDT 1996
Article: 65026 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What other sorts of Revisionism are there?
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:53:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

joelr@gw.ddb.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) writes:

>>All we get in this newsgroup is Holocaust, Holocaust, Holocaust.  Don't 
>>revisionists look into any other historical subject matter?

>>Inquiring minds want to know.

>Real revisionists -- that is to say, historians engaged in
>reconsideration and research into matters that perhaps had been
>generally thought to have been settled -- don't spend any more time on
>whether or not the Holocaust happened than they do on whether or not
>the US Civil War did, and for roughly the same reasons -- although, of
>course, the Civil War isn't (and couldn't be) as well-documented as
>the Holocaust is.

>I read a very interesting piece of historical revisionism about five
>years ago, that pretty much put paid to the common notion that
>everybody just stumbled into WWI -- an examination of the records from
>the German General Staff made it clear that Germany had always
>intended to, once again, solve their problems by making war on their
>neighbors, but the starting gun went off early.

>But the deniers are no more real revisionists than "Kurt Stele", when
>playing "doctor" with the little girl next door, would be a
>gynecologist.  Irving -- for all his flaws as a writer and a human
>being -- is about the best of the lot, and he's pretty piss-poor, as
>has been demonstrated by real historians reviewing his writing.

Joel will simply do -anything- to slander revisionism.

These guys are desperate.  It is a telling sign.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 12:38:07 PDT 1996
Article: 65116 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BATF Hit Squad -- Tee Hee
Date: 13 Sep 1996 14:07:55 -0400
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author@mainelink.net wrote:

>Here, normal people, is another symptom of mental derangement:


>samk@i-link.net (Sam A. Kersh) wrote:
>>nrn@tezcat.com (Norman Nithman) wrote:
>>
>>>So you are claiming that the BATF wanted to assassinate Koresh?
>>>-- 
>>
>>Yes.  That was Special Agent Steve Willis' assignment.  He missed and
>>hit Perry Jones instead.
>>
>>
>>Sam A. Kersh
>>samk@i-link.net
>>NRA Life Member
>>TSRA


>  Lemme ask ya -- if there was a hitsquad, howcum they're ignoring these 
>GunGoofies? Letting 'em publicize all these "exposes" or even letting 'em

>live?

>  I got it! The professionally trained, conspiratorial secret ATF hit 
>squad is *scared* to tackle the GunGoofies. Yeah, that must be it.


>                                                    Jim


The reason why is because the BATF and the government doesn't have the
power to do so -- YET.  Give them some time though.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 15:22:01 PDT 1996
Article: 65133 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If Ole walks like a duck, and Ole talks like a....
Date: 13 Sep 1996 13:58:54 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <51ar29$a57@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) writes:

>>Fine, McVay.  If the Germans are indeed a sovereign people with the
right
>>to pass laws imprisoning Lauck for his thoughts, 

>Beep.  Assuming facts not only not in evidence, but are demonstrably
untrue.  
>Lauck was not imprisoned for his thoughts, but his behavior.  Beep.

>Oh, and Kurt?  Your mother swims after troop ships.

Let me rephrase it to address Joel Rosenberg's Talmudic distinctions:

If the Germans as a sovereign people can criminalize the expression of
certain thoughts, then certainly the Germans as a sovereign people can
remove Jews from their society.  Period.

Who are we to question a sovereign people?  

Kurt Stele


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 15:22:02 PDT 1996
Article: 65144 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg is a Swarthy, Geeky Little Jew
Date: 13 Sep 1996 14:16:19 -0400
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <51as7d$aeo@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <514882$eeo@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
>> >(william c anderson) wrote:
>> 
>> >[snip]
>> 
>> >> Hey, Joel--as a descendant of both Vikings and Druids, I hereby
grant
>> >> you officially permission to plunder the Aryan cultural heritage. 
Go
>> >> for it, Joel.
>> 
>> >You mean _plunger_, don't you Bill? Considering that Aryan "culture"
>> >generally resides in a toilet, I think that was the word you were
looking
>> >for.... 
>> 
>> >Mark
>> 
>> It is always good to see the exterminationists reveal the true animus
>> behind the Holohoax Tale:  to defame, slander and destroy the White
>> culture and race they hate so vehemently.  Verily, we see the primary
use
>> of the Holocaust Lie.

>Au contraire, Herr Wankermeister! You are operating under the false and
>bigoted assumption that I consider "Aryan culture" to be equated to
"White
>culture and race." For that matter you, are under false and bigoted
>assumption that there really is indeed something such as "White culture
>and race."

>I'm always heartily amused when Nazi mongrels, such as yourself, Herr
>Wankermeister, try to play the "Aryan" card. You see, Herr Wankermeister,
>it is quite likely that I am more "Aryan" than you are. You know, Nordic
>complexion, blue eyes, light brown hair, 6'5" and 200 lbs.... Yessiree,
>Adolf! I'm a shoe-in for the Ayran recruitment poster. Give some kinky
>Nazi lether uniform and  a riding crop, and I could pass for an
>"Ubermensch" anytime!  };-> 

(laughing)  And I thought you might be Jewish with a German last name by
your writing. You unwittingly betray a knowledge of your own unique worth,
and that is good. Even if I had been a mongrel, any honest man of any race
would concede our greatness in beauty, no?  Our feats of science, of art,
the world over. I am glad there are some of us still left, though
misguided. Are you married, Mark?  If so, I do hope you are married to
nice, racially-healthy woman.  We'll need your children.

Kurt Stele

>But, of course, as we all know this, "Aryan" crap is just that- crap.
Nazi
>swill for losers, such as yourself, Herr Wankermeister, to drown your
>misanthropic sorrows and resentment of your betters in.

>Skoal! 

>Mark

Joel Rosenberg is a Swarthy, Geeky Little Jew


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 17:53:46 PDT 1996
Article: 65207 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If Ole walks like a duck, and Ole talks like a....
Date: 13 Sep 1996 14:12:25 -0400
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <51ar29$a57@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>[snip]

>> Fine, McVay.  If the Germans are indeed a sovereign people with the
right
>> to pass laws imprisoning Lauck for his thoughts, then certainly the
>> Germans in the 1930's had the right to pass laws deporting Jews.  You
just
>> said they are a sovereign people with the right to pass laws.

>The problem with this assertion little man, is that a sovereign people in
>Germany passed no such laws. Anti-semetic actions which led to the
>systematic extermination of over 6 million Jews, homosexuals, gypsies and
>political prisoners, were initiated by the Nazi party, which came to
power
>not by a passive application of the electoral/legal process, but by an
>active campaign of terrorism which, as you might recall, included that
>little fire in the Reichstag (sic) and the subsequent seizure of power by
>Hitler.

Oh I already forsaw this argument.  You're essentially saying that the
Occupied German government reflects the will of the people better than
Adolf Hitler, who was the most popular man in European history.   Well,
I'd say your full of it.  The current government may be called a
"democracy" but it speaks for foreign interests.  The government of Adolf
Hitler had the highest popular approval rating of any regime.  The people
of Germany were united and vibrant, happy as never before under Adolf. 
The reason is because Adolf was -their- leader, not some stuffed shirt
upholding thoughtcrime laws to keep Germans harnessed to a load of guilt
for some bullshit "Holocaust" tale.  No, Adolf spoke for the will of the
people, and the people, like any normal people, did not want to be
enslaved to jewish monetary control.  The Germans in general have -never-
like Jews.  They wanted them out, like Israelis want Arabs out.  

What is so absurd in your position is that you claim the current Occupied
Government reflects what the people want.  As long as Germans are in
existence, as well as all peoples in Europe, they are going to want their
country for themselves and not foreigners, not Jews.  The will of the
people naturally favors nationalism, xenophobia because that is
instinctive.  That's what Hitler wanted, and that is why the people loved
him far more than our democratic side-show charlatans of today are held in
contempt.

The German people are sovereign, and the German people wanted Germany for
Germans, and not Jews.

If we must uphold their will as a sovereign people to imprison Gerhard
Lauck, they we must uphold their will as a sovereign people to remove
Jews.  You can't have it both ways.

Kurt Stele

>> McVay says it's OK to suppress views McVay disagrees with, but it is
not
>> OK to suppress -his- views.

>Liar.

Not.

>[snip]


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 18:19:34 PDT 1996
Article: 65212 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg is Slandering Jew
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:13:37 -0400
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On 9 Sep 1996 21:35:13 -0400, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:


>>Go ahead.  Report me to AOL.  It is the jewish modus operandi to shut
down
>>opposition with legalism, personal attacks and slander, jewish-money
>>pressure and when that fails, terrorism.  

>And I knew it would be too hard for you. After your tirade directed at
Joel,
>you couldn't resist the temptation to engage in a little racism and
bigotry,
>could you?

>Pot. Kettle. Black.

Calling it racism and bigotry does not refute the assertion.  

You guys forget how to argue sometimes.  That's what happens to
Holocausters after a while -- they get flabby from patting each other on
the back over and over.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 18:37:39 PDT 1996
Article: 65221 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:19:19 -0400
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
>under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
>water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
>	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
>years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
>clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
>were detected.
>	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
>relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
>capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
>be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
>constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
>processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.
>	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
>Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
>Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
>natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
>elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
>compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.
>	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
>and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
>with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
>shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
>O reincorporated into something else.  	
>	Most likely whatever was found during these tests was probably
>CN compounds created within a short time from the time the samples
>were taken. New ones precipitate from the material like the white
>niter or ammonium nitrate that we can see under bridges and tunnels,
>or in caves, only to wash away and be replaced.

>	The report does not make any conclusions on why such radically
>different results can be arrived at from the same room or piece of
>material, when we can suggest this is analogous to naturally occuring
>precipitous action that tend to congregate in patches, having found
>localized conditions for easy percipitation from within the interior
>of the structures material.
>	The report does not make a stab at explaining why such low
>traces were found in fumigation chambers, in some cases being zero,
>when we would expect to find high levels. Judging by photographs of
>still extent fumigation chambers, the interiors of these facilities
>have been protected from weather conditions.
>	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
>found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
>fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
>II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
>11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
>and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
>occur.

>	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
>concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
>of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
>story. 
>	
>                                              Tom Moran	 
	

Bam! POW! Crack!

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 19:35:55 PDT 1996
Article: 65238 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How to Stop Jewish Destruction of Whites
Date: 13 Sep 1996 19:58:33 -0400
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The following article appears on the JDL webpage.  The JDL was voted the
#1 voice of Judaism.  Here is the article:

-----begin-------

How to successfully stop Arab Terrorism in Israel

All Arabs Out of Israel Now!

The murders of so many Jewish men, women and children in Israel within the
past few days have made it abundantly clear that there is no peace
process. We fault the government of Israel for deluding the Jewish people
-- in
Israel and around the world -- into the belief that there can be peace
with
Arabs. Furthermore, this nation-state that would not protect its own
people
will be held responsible by G-d. It is more than ludicrous to run to Head
Jew Killer Yasir Arafat and ask for him to stop his fellow Arabs from
murdering Jews. His own PLO charter still claims all of Israel as
Palestine.

More and more Israelis and Jews around the world are recognizing the fact
that Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory, was correct in his call for the
expulsion of ALL ARABS from the Land of Israel. There can be no peace with
your sworn enemies living among you. They Must Go NOW!

Return to Israel Today & Always Table of Contents

Return to JDL Home Page

--------end---------

The above was a resolution advocating the protection of Jewish people from
the bad effects of Arabs.  Here is the same resolution, only this time it
is written to protect White people from the bad effects of Jews.  

How to Stop the Jewish Destruction of Whites

All Jews Out of White Lands Now!

The destruction or oppression of so many men, women and children of
European descent within the last few centuries due to Jewish intrigue,
Jewish communism, Jewish world war-instigation, Jewish cultural and moral
subversion, financial exploitation, and now the legislative and media
drive to dilute and dissolve the White race through multiculturalism and
race-mixing propaganda, have made it abundantly clear that there can be no
peaceful or healthful coexistence between Jews and Whites. We fault the
government of formerly White lands for deluding the European people -- in
Europe and around the world -- into the belief that there can be healthful
coexistence with Jews.  Furthermore, this White race that would not
protect its own people will be held responsible by G-d.  It is more than
ludicrous to permit Jews to control our media and ask for him to stop
their deliberate campaign of promoting White genocide by advocating
race-mixing, miscegenation, and non-White flooding.  The Jews' own myth
contends that they are the people "Chosen" to rule over the goyim like
shepherds over sheep, and wish to destroy White pride in their own race,
along with the White race itself. 

More and more Whites around the world are recognizing the fact
that Henry Ford, Voltaire, Martin Luther, Queen Isabella, Richard Wagner,
Napolean Bonaparte, Charles Lingberg, George Washington, Sir Francis
Bacon, George Bernard Shaw, Franz Liszt, H.L. Mencken, and Hillaire Belloc
of blessed memory, were all correct in their criticism of Jewish
exploitation or calls for the expulsion of ALL JEWS from the Land of
Europeans. There can be no peace with your sworn enemies living among you.

They Must Go NOW!

----------------

If Jews can advocate protecting themselves from Arab harm, then surely
Whites can do the same against Jewish harm, no?

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 19:35:56 PDT 1996
Article: 65240 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racists Blame their troubles on Everthing
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:09:54 -0400
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"Spark/Thomas J. Miller jr."  wrote:

>Dave Harman OBC wrote:
>> 
>> In <51219m$ht1@chaos.dac.neu.edu> pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Philip
Kasiecki) writes:
>> 
>> !     Wait a minute here.  Not only is the "White Race" a myth, but so
are
>> ! all others.  "Race" is biologically invalid.  "Race" among humans is
an
>> ! artificial social construct.  Nothing more.
>> 
>> Prove it.  Your unsupported assertions are, of course, worthless.

>As are yours. Any human male can mate and produce children by any human 
>female, and the child will still grow to be capable of the same things
that 
>any other human is capable of doing on average. For this reason, Philip
is 
>indeed correct in that "race" is biologically invalid. 

>The Aryan Race that Hitler and most Skinheads speak so fondly of are the 
>ancestors of what are now known as Indians; that is, Natives of India.
They 
>don't look too "white" to me, Dave. Your precious caucasoid race was a
result 
>of eons of environmental adaptation to northern Europe's violent
tempature 
>shifts (as compared to equatorial Africa) general lack of sunlight
causing 
>melanin production to atrophy, and nothing more. Blood and organs can be 
>transferred between members of any race. If you've ever had to recieve
any 
>blood via transfusion, there's no way on earth you could tell what race
the 
>donor was, except that he/she was human.

Generally speaking, the "White race" that White racialists seek to
preserve are the peoples of European descent.  The peoples of European
descent alone can produce European culture and genius, as manifested by
Beethoven and Michelangelo, Wagner and Rembrandt, Werner and Von Braun.
The White gene pool has also produced an unsurpassed record of invention:
the light bulb, the telegraph, the airplane along with countless others.
Once Whites are genetically amalgamated with non-Whites, the White gene
pool will be destroyed and Whites will cease to exist as a people. 

To say there are no racial differences is another "Big Lie" (i.e., besides
the Holocaust).  There are huge racial differences.  There are no African
Newtons.  Nor will there ever be, despite the various extenuating theories
of the egalitarians.  To say there are no racial differences is to say
there is no difference between the music of a Beethoven symphony and that
produced by an aborigine pounding rhythmically, albeit intently, on a
rock. 

Kurt Stele


>-- 
>x-Signature: T J Miller jr:

>"Thwarted lives have the most character-conditioned hate....
>The easiest idea to sell anyone is that he is better than someone else.
The 
>appeal of the Klu Klux Klan and racist agitators rests on this type of 
>salesmanship."

>                              -Gordon W. Allport
>                         
>Formerly of the 37th TFW, USAF.   Now in Springdale Ark.


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 22:44:45 PDT 1996
Article: 65244 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 19:51:58 -0400
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dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:

>>She also said it's OK for Israel to murder U.S. servicemen on the U.S.S.
>>Liberty to further Israel's interest, but never the other way around, of
>>course.

>	This is your twisted interpretation of her words.

Really?  So Annie did not justify Israelis butchering U.S. servicemen for
Israeli interests?

Annie Alpert  wrote:

>For the record, the USS Liberty was engaged in spyiny against our ally
>(whether you like to admit it or not).  The Liberty was a spy ship. 
>Israel is our ally.  Read it and weep.  

Kurt Stele



>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW:
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 22:44:46 PDT 1996
Article: 65249 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: --->NOTICE: David Irving Speaks Tonight [9/10] in Oakland @17:00
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:03:17 -0400
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[Followup = alt.revisionism]

>Unfortunately, Womack, I won't be able to attend. If you
>go, please find out something for me. A British Nazi activist, 
>and an ardent admirer of Irving, posted the following excerpt,
>taken from the trial of Canadian Nazi Ernst Zundel:

># Did you find "any orders for the extermination of Jews" in 
># the archives of any country? asked Christie.
>#
># "None whatsoever," said [David] Irving. 

>Please, Womack, do try to find out how this is consistent
>with the fact that Irving mentions in his book a letter from 
>Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941, 
>in which the order to kill Jews "unfit for work" with poison 
>gas is given. To me, it seems like a contradiction. 

The Brack remedy refers to Hitler's euthanasia program, allowing the mercy
killing of terminally ill patients with carbon monoxide.  That's what Dr.
Kevorkian does today.  You may or may not agree with it, but that isn't
"an extermination program." Of course, the hoaxsters seized upon it and
blew it out of proportion, like they did everything else, to make their
nazis look bad.  

There is no evidence the Wetzel letter was even sent or received.  A
typewritten draft of the letter was presented at the Nuremberg kangaroo
trial, signed by Wetzel at the bottom.  Wetzel was never called as a
witness, and was declared immune from prosecution.  

You want to base your "Holocaust" on that?

Kurt Stele

>Maybe Irving will care to explain this document, and many
>others, which clearly prove an extermination plan? 

>Care to respond to these questions, oh mighty internet hero?

>-Danny Keren.



From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 22:44:47 PDT 1996
Article: 65251 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Kurt Stele" is even easier to catch as a liar than George J. Lehmann is
Date: 13 Sep 1996 19:48:37 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <512gkh$357@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) writes:

>>You continue to attack George as a coward and an anti-semite.

>Well, yes, I do -- but that's just because he is.  He's also a liar, and
a 
>clumsy one.  

>>Go ahead.  Report me to AOL.  

>Already did; hours ago.

Aww, poor widdle Jowey got mad and tattled to AOL. You OK now, Jowey?
There there (pat pat)

>>BTW I thought your pulp-fantasy book _The Road to the Warrior_ sucked,
>>Joel.  

>Well, I guess I would have to pretend to be hurt, if I'd written that
book -- 
>but it's not one of mine, "Kurt."  If you're going to pretend to have
read 
>anything of mine, you should probably actually pick one of my books to
pretend 
>to have read, rather than making up a title vaguely similar to one of
mine to 
>pretend to have read.  

"The Road to Ehvenor." I knew I had seen it before. I can say of all the
Tolkien wanna-be's you are by far the -worst.-

At page 39:

------------

"Her voice was just a hair too light, too casual, or maybe my own bad
dream had oversensitized me, which would be a first; nobody's ever accused
me of being sensitive.

"Dreams?" I asked.

"Dreams" she said.

"You know, stories that you tell yourself when you fall asleep.  Sausages
chasing bagels through tunnels, stuff like that."

---------

Pffffffffttttt!!! (spitting out my water).

No wonder jews are so successful.  Far more because of connections than
actual talent.

Kurt Stele

>I mean, gee, "Kurt", you're too lazy to cut-and-paste a title from my
home 
>page, even.

>Lazy nazis and antisemites we have around here.  

>And stupid?  That doesn't begin to describe them.

>Hee hee hee.





>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.


From kurtstele@aol.com Fri Sep 13 22:44:48 PDT 1996
Article: 65280 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jews:  Most Racist of Peoples
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:39:02 -0400
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dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
>>Whites who care about their heritage are racist;
>>The aggressors in the Alan Berg slaying were racist;
>>Jews are white;

>	Not all Jews are white - e.g. Ethiopian Jews. (A factual error.)

>>Jews care about their heritage;
>>Therefore Jews killed Alan Berg.

>	In this posting the logical fallacies are equivocation and a
strawman.
>Firstly, Harman equates "caring about their heritage" with being racist
(this
>is the strawman), then claims Jews are racist for "caring about their
>heritage". I can imagine that caring about ones heritage does not
neccessarily
>involve being racist. (I.e. knowing the literary and linguistic heritage
of
>your ancestors does not mean you have to despise people who aren't of the
same
>ancestry.) Secondly, he claims that white racists and Jews are
equivalent. Even
>if his spurious claim that Jews are racist _were_ true, this would not
follow,
>any more than this:

All races are racist.  All beings possess a natural and instinctive
affinity for their own kind.  Exceptions do not negate this rule.  Mother
Nature is a neo-nazi.  This drives anti-racists crazy.  Anti-racists are
fanatical rebels against Nature and Jews are their leaders.

Some races are more racist than others.  Jews are the most racist of all
peoples.  Otherwise they would not have survived as an alien people in
several different countries throughout many centuries.

Even though jews are the most racist, they most decry the racism of other
groups. Jews are the most hypocritical of all peoples. 

Jews hate the racism of other peoples.  It is a danger to them, because
Jews are an alien independent nation within the host nation, and must rely
on the good graces and ignorance of their host.  Jews dwell in the lands
of other peoples, dominating them financially at first, and then
spiritually.  America is in the spiritual phase of Jewish domination.  

Jews do not want their host White people to be racially patriotic because
the host will invariably overthrow Jewish power and and replace it with
their own.  If the host people are racist they will eventually reject the
alien Jewish values pumped into them, which always sicken because they are
foreign values.  

Jews also instinctively resent the racial purity, beauty, and excellence
of Nordics. Jews are often racially-mixed.  Jews revel in ugliness. Look
at their modern art.  New York City is their heaven on earth. 

Jews want to dominate the host, and do so through Jewish racism.  What
Jews hate most is when people figure out Jewish racism and what Jews are
up to. Jews try attack those people with slanders, boycotts, and
accusations of anti-semitism to keep them quiet.

Jews are strongest when they remain invisible.  But Jews always blow it. 
They eventually start bragging about the power they have.  They cannot
help it.  Invariably the host becomes alerted.  The word spreads.

Kurt Stele


>	All dogs are four-legged animals
>	All cats are four-legged animals
>	Therefore, all dogs are cats.

>	Both in Harman's "argument" and my ridiculous example the word
"is" is
>used in a sense meaning "has the property of being", not the sense
meaning
>mathematical identity.

>	Here ends today's lesson in informal logic!

>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW:
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 08:50:30 PDT 1996
Article: 65370 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Allegiance is to Israel First
Date: 13 Sep 1996 01:44:55 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <514eeu$fqm@lendl.cc.emory.edu> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) writes:
>>From: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
>>Subject: Re: Jewish Allegiance is to Israel First
>>Date: 10 Sep 1996 19:10:22 GMT

>>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:

>>> Jews can't complain about the Holocaust, even if true.  Jews 
>>> butcher other people to further their own interest -- precisely what 
>>> they accused nazi's of. 

>>Again, Kurt graces us with the White Power Rangers' peculiar
>>collectivist outlook:  some Jews have done Bad Things, and 
>>therefore no Jew can complain about the Holocaust.

>It's not quite as neat, though, as Tommy's claim that the Holocaust
didn't 
>happen because he doesn't like the Desert Eagle.  

Post the proof for your nonsense, Joel.

With your continued reductio ad absurdum arguments like the above you are
evincing mediocrity in other areas beside fiction writing, Joel.

Kurt Stele


>I'm not making this up, you know...


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.



From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 08:50:31 PDT 1996
Article: 65378 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:  Jews death-threat St. Martin employees
Date: 13 Sep 1996 14:07:51 -0400
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <51ar55$a63@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >> Holohuggers continue to claim the employees of St. Martin's
publishing
>> >> house were not threatened physically.  For newcomers, St. Martin's
is the
>> >> firm forced to cancel David Irving's book contract due to threats
and
>> >> pressure from the jewish ADL and other jews. Holohuggers were
already
>> >> given the cite of _Time_ magazine April 15, 1996 which explicitly
says
>> >> that the employees complained of death threats.  
>> 
>> >The relevant quote is:
>> 
>> >"St. Martin's chairman Thomas J. McCormack denied that his house had 
>> >succumbed to "coercion," which included a swelling tide of unfavorable

>> >press stories, criticism from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai
B'rith 
>> >and, according to some employees, telephoned death threats." 
>> 
>> >(Time Magazine, April 15, 1996.)
>> 
>> >I fail to see where it says that Jews were responsible for the death
>> >threats, but then we all know that you were lying when you made that
>> >claim.
>> 
>> Yeah, sure it wasn't Jews who called in the "death threats."  Just like
it
>> wasn't Jews who forced the cancellation of the David Irving's book
>> contract.  It was all just "an independent staff decision."

>Whether a Jewish person was the source of the alleged death threats is
>uncertain, at best. However, you made the claim (as per the subject
>header) that said threats came from a jew or jews. In fact, according to
>the Time article, the ADL can be said to have criticized St. Martins, but
>nowhere does it say that a jew made a threat, much less a death threat.
>Nowhere does it say that a jew engaged in coercive behaviour, other than
>protest. So, the only valid conclusion is that you lied, and that you are
>a liar.
>  
>> Yeah, yeah that's it.

>Thank you for admitting your error (i.e. that you lied.)

You wish I did.  Of course Jews are going to deny calling in the
death-threats 

>> Nobody's fooled Rajiv.

>No, I don't suppose that they are fooled by your anti-semetic rants. I'd
>suggest that you first gather evidence to support your claim, then make
>that claim public - otherwise, you will continue to look the fool, much
as
>you do at this moment.

First gather the evidence for your claim of the "Holocaust" and we'll
talk.

Kurt Stele

>[snip]

>> >> Holohuggers have difficulty deducing facts which do not suit their
>> >> religious opinions. Sometimes you have to repeat things several
times
>> >> before they can understand, if then.
>> 
>> >You are an idiot. You are an idiot. You are an idiot. You are an
idiot.


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 11:07:18 PDT 1996
Article: 65440 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Joel Rosenberg's Writing Bested by George
Date: 13 Sep 1996 19:53:35 -0400
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Joel Rosenberg is posting repeated smears against George Lehmann like some
cretin spraying graffiti.  

So much for behaving as a "distinguished author." (hah)

Joel is obviously miffed at something. He has posted at least 10 headers
with George's name in it and continues to smear George is a coward and an
anti-semite. However, if you care to browse through Joel Rosenberg's
pulp-fantasy books you will conclude George is a much better writer than
Joel.  I believe that explains what this all about.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 14:14:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65479 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:02:44 -0400
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:

>: ah yes, the media only carries those views -it- wants and censors those
>: -it- doesn't want. 

>"Media" is plural, Kurt.

The "media" here is referred to as an institution. Each part is subject to
the same forces of jewish control, jewish ownership, or jewish econonic
boycott

>: Yet the media claims to be pluralistic and tolerant of dissent.  

>It does?  What, were you talking to it in a bar, or something?

>"Media" is plural, Kurt.

You say that again?  You must be short on arguments today

>: What a
>: hypocritical lie that is.  Zundel's nixing displays that once again, as
if
>: we didn't already know it.

>Yeah.  "The Media" doesn't give a hell of a lot of coverage to 
>flat-earthers, either.  That damned intolerant media.

as if the Holocaust is as scientifically and mathematically airtight as
the round earth theory (geesh. You wish)

If there were huge evidentiary gaps in the "round earth theory" it would
be permitted on the airwaves and discussed at length.  One can be a
flat-earther without problem but if one is revisionist he can be thrown
into jail. Obviously the reason for censoring revisionism are political
and not scientific.  

Jewish money power and politics is the reason why it is censored.  

>: But is it any surprise the media hypocritically lies about its being
>: "pluralistic," considering the fact it is dominanted by Jews, the most
>: accomplished and hypocritical liars in history?

>Refresh my memory, Kurt--you don't claim not to be an antisemite,
>do you?

you do not (cannot) refute the substance of the statement

>: The media is biased.  The media is no better in allowing dissent than
the
>: Nazis they hypocritically demonize.  The media is far worse than Nazis
>: because the media makes the despicable pretense that is allows
differing
>: viewpoints.  

>"Media" is plural, Kurt.

(yawn)

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 14:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 65482 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If Ole walks like a duck, and Ole talks like a....
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:28:11 -0400
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <51c869$9o1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>[snip]

>> Oh I already forsaw this argument.  You're essentially saying that the
>> Occupied German government reflects the will of the people better than
>> Adolf Hitler, who was the most popular man in European history. 

>No, in fact, that's not what I was saying. I said that Germany's actions
>resulted from the rule of a dictator, not from popular representation.
>Hitler's 'popularity' is irrelevant; his power, once he seized it, was
>absolute - until your hero chose to take is worthless life. 

that's why they elected him.  Because they knew he would create a Germany
for Germans.  They wanted a man who -do-something instead of our "elected"
stooges who hem and haw, and give excuses and pork barrel. "We can't use
the army to stop the Mexican invasion. That would be inthenthitive"
(waaah)

>> Well, I'd say your full of it. The current government may be called a
>> "democracy" but it speaks for foreign interests.  

>The current government in Germany is elected by the masses, and this is
>mandated by the masses. Hitler was not. Hitler stole his power, and held
>it through a reign of virtual terror. (By the way, the word is you're.)

Thanks for the grammatical lesson.  And BTW, crack a book and study how
Hitler rose to power.  I'm not doing your homework for you.  

>> The government of Adolf Hitler had the highest popular approval 
>> rating of any regime.

>You'll need to document this one, establishing that any perceived
>popularity was not the product of a rule of tyranny.

He drew the largest crowds for his rallies in history even before he was
elected.  Face it, Rajiv -- the Germans loved the man.  He took their
economy and rebuit it, short-circuited international finance in Germany,
removed Jews, cleaned up the neighborhoods, put millions back to work, and
made their country a thriving land.
Otto Dietrich described a meeting before the 1932 election, scheduled for
8:00 p.m. Hitler was long delayed, finally reaching the place at 2:00 a.m.
where over 40,000 waited:  "In the pouring rain we met the crowd, now
drenched to the skin, tired and hungry, just as they had gathered over the
night and patiently waited.  Hitler spoke to the audience as day slowly
dawned."  Can you imagine such a turnout for a midget of a man like Bob
Dole? or a piece of shit like Clinton?
  
>> The people
>> of Germany were united and vibrant, happy as never before under Adolf. 
>> The reason is because Adolf was -their- leader, not some stuffed shirt
>> upholding thoughtcrime laws to keep Germans harnessed to a load of
guilt
>> for some bullshit "Holocaust" tale.  No, Adolf spoke for the will of
the
>> people, and the people, like any normal people, did not want to be
>> enslaved to jewish monetary control.  The Germans in general have
-never-
>> like Jews.  They wanted them out, like Israelis want Arabs out.

>This is a load of bunk, although it is a testament to your blatant (and
>groundless) anti-semetism. Hitler spoke to the people not for; they had
no
>other choice but to obey.

the word is "anti-semitism. Look at the expressions on the people's faces
in archival footage during the rallies.  You evidently know little about
this period in history. 

>> What is so absurd in your position is that you claim the current
Occupied
>> Government reflects what the people want. 

>The 'occupied' goverment is elected by the people of Germany, and as such
>is an entity which is properly a democratic government, with a mandate to
>govern. Hitler had no such mandate.

Democracy is a sham. It exists to delude and to exploit the people it
pretends to represent.  The rule of the public, apart from small units of
administration, has never existed, and never can and never will exist.  It
is always by the few; even in so-called "democracy" (sic). The Party Game
is closed to outsiders. The people are given no real choice. Bob Dole or
Bill Clinton: that is a choice?  

Nationale Summlung has been prevented from taking part in local elections:
 thus demonstrating the utter falsity of democracy in that country, where
National Socialism, the wish of the German people in the 1930's has been
banned since 1945.  National Socialism was a completely grass-roots
movement, Hitler accepting very few donations from big business. The
German people aren't give a "right to choose." Democracy reflects the will
of the people?  How would you know if parties are banned! What a sham you
are propounding.  The natural and innate wish of all peoples are to their
own nation. Adolf promised that to them and made good on it.

>> As long as Germans are in
>> existence, as well as all peoples in Europe, they are going to want
their
>> country for themselves and not foreigners, not Jews.  The will of the
>> people naturally favors nationalism, xenophobia because that is
>> instinctive.  That's what Hitler wanted, and that is why the people
loved
>> him far more than our democratic side-show charlatans of today are held
in
>> contempt.

>Hitler was a beady-eyed impotent little troll. His rule had nothing to do
>with Germany, and everything to do with his own twisted little quest for
>power and to eradicate the Jooo. 

what nonsense.  

>Xenophobia is an incorrect term, since the only animals involved are all
of the >same race - ie human beings. 

yeah, there's no difference between a jungle aborigine and Beethoven,
between the  genetics which created the civilization of the West, and the
genetics which produced the (non)civilization of sub-Saharan Africa. Tell
me some more egalitarian hokum

>Nationalism itself is a horrendously flawed >policy, especially in a
global
>economy where it is necessary to conduct business with other ethnic
>cultures in order to survive. 

Hardly. Globalization has produced a huge export deficit for the U.S.  and
gutted whole American industries now relocated to third world.  It is not
only unnecessary but positively destructive.  

But that was its purpose:  to drag down the standard of living in formerly
White nations to that of the third world, the "equalize" wages, to put
American workers into direct competition with Mexican peons and Chinese 

>Racism is dead, although it is taking some people longer to realize it
than others.

That's why we fund Israel, right?

>> The German people are sovereign, and the German people wanted Germany
for
>> Germans, and not Jews.

>Then let the German people elect a government which will deport all the
>Joooos. (That they have not says little for your position.)

They did. Hitler's.  

>> If we must uphold their will as a sovereign people to imprison Gerhard
>> Lauck, they we must uphold their will as a sovereign people to remove
>> Jews.  You can't have it both ways.

>So show me where the population of Germany wants to remove the Jews.

Show me a Nazi gas chamber first and not a postbellum one

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 14:14:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65488 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goring's Commission to Heydrich
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:39:00 -0400
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <51cev2$igi@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>> >  In article <5186nb$n3i@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com
wrote:
>> >  
>> >  [snip]
>> >  
>> > 
>> >  Given that Hilberg most certainly qualifies as a "serious historian"
and
>> >  that it is self-evident from his (above) anlysis regarding Go"ring's
order
>> >  of July 31 that "an extermination program was devised against the
Jews at
>> >  this date," your claim otherwise are shown to be worthless, Herr
>> >  Schwarzesel.  
>> >  
>> >  [snip]
>> >  
>> >  Mark
>> >  
>> >
>> 
>> >>>>
>> Hilberg didn't do so well when he testified at the Zundel trial. 
That's why 
>> he refused to reappear to testify at a later trial. Seems he was having
a few
>> problems supporting some of his interpretations.....

>Herr Schwarzesel, care to support this claim by posting the relevent
parts
>of the transpscripts from the first Zundel trial? As we all know, Hilberg
>was cross-examined by the neo-Nazi's legal attack-dog, Christie, 

oh, you mean his "l-a-w-y-er."  OK.  

>who was
>described by the _Ontario Lawyers Weekly_, as exibiting "sheer
nastiness."
>For instance, Christie treated Holocaust survivors "in a brutal fashion,
>calling one a liar and insiosting that another give him the full names of
>at least twenty family members who had been killed in the camps." (cf.
>_Denying the Holocuast_, p.160.)

Holocausters are actually called to answer for their claims.  How
horrible!  How brutal!  How, how, downright ill-mannered.  How dare they
treat a Holocauster like any other witness?

>But in regards to Christies cross-examination of Dr. Hilberg, who is a
>Professor Emeritus in the Department of History at the University of
>Vermont: To get an idea of Christie's badgering tactics and empty
>posturing, one need only consider that "he asked Dr. Hilberg if he
>recognized a certain historical tract and then declared, 'I though you
>might- you're a historian of sorts." (cf. Ibid.)

Looking at Hillberg's work he appears more of a propagandist than anything
else. Irving is a far better historian.  

>And, of course, at Zundel's second trial, who did Christie call to
testify
>on Zundel's behalf? Why none othr than the Hitlerphile and self-described
>"moderate fascist" David Irving! An ersatz "historian of sorts" to say
the
>least! (cf. Ibid.) Such hypocrisy and dishonesty is to be expected, I
>suppose, when defending scum like Zundel.... 

Prove that David Irving described himself as a "moderate fascist."  Irving
has denied this repeatedly, and so far noone has produced any evidence.  

Kurt Stele

>So, Herr Schwarzesel, pardon my skepticism at your claim that Dr. Hilberg
>had a "a few problems supporting some of his interpretations." I suggest,
>Herr Schwarzesel, that you put your money where your mouth is and provide
>the trial transcripts. That is, of course, if it such is not too much to
>ask of a craven scumabg Nazi apologist, such as yourself? 

>MarK

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil
passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 15:00:02 PDT 1996
Article: 65493 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's plans to deport Danish citizens
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:32:24 -0400
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>  
>>   Terror? Is it terror to motivate illegal aliens to leave? Does the
USA
>>  exercise "terror" by forcing thousands of illegal aliens every month
to 
>>  leave the country?

>	The difference -- which you refuse to recognize -- is that the
people who 
>you are talking about are not "illegal immigrants."  They are Danish
citizens either 
>by birth or because they obtained that citizenship by legal means.  To
arbitrarily 
>revoke such citizenship on the basis of ethnic origins is a violation of
their human 
>and legal rights.  There is, to my knowledge, only one country that ever
so 
>maltreated their citizens.  That country was nazi Germany.

Yeah.  The Jews merely kicked Palestinians the hell out, and then some. 
Did you forget about that Yale?

>	You are, and remain, a nazi.

I guess Israelis are nazis then.

Kurt Stele

>	--YFE



From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 15:00:03 PDT 1996
Article: 65494 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg is Slandering Jew
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:22:41 -0400
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Sara wrote:

> Mr. "Stele" has no idea what irony is, does he?
 
>He he did, he would realize that "smearing" an entire race by accusing
>them of "the smear" is pretty darned funny.

It isn't a smear if it is indeed true that Jews commonly resort to the
tactics of slandering, legalism, boycott, and then terrorism to silence
anyone who questions them:  which it is.  That is no mere "smear," because
it is -valid-.  You're point about irony, etc. is sophomoric b.s..

Kurt Stele
 
 
>Sara

-- 
"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
    Edith Sitwell



From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 15:00:04 PDT 1996
Article: 65496 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:07:33 -0400
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>Kurt Stele wrote:
>> 
>> joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <51aqqd$a2g@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>> Stele) writes:
>> 
>> >>More censorship of revisionism by the "free and fair" media.
>> 
>> >No, it's not censorship, Kurtsie.  The station in question doesn't
have
>> the
>> >obligation to carry Zundel's ravings.
>> 
>> ah yes, the media only carries those views -it- wants and censors those
>> -it- doesn't want.

>Sure, it's called freedom of the press, Kurt. The media has
>the right to cover what it chooses, regardless of what the 
>rest of us think.

holocausters argue the trite point of legality over and over. It is that
the media is biased as any other tinpot dictatorship and that those biases
are because the threat of jewish money power. If someone presented
evidence that 20 million Russians didn't die it would be allowed on the
airwaves.  But because Zundel contradicts the Jews' Holy Hoax it is
censored. 

Zundel's nixing debunks the common fallacy that because we have a
democratic society and not a dictatorship the press is any more fair. 
That is of course, bullshit, another sham of democracy.  The media is no
better than a dictatorship, merely more hypocritical.

>> Yet the media claims to be pluralistic and tolerant of dissent.  What a
>> hypocritical lie that is.  Zundel's nixing displays that once again, as
if
>> we didn't already know it.

>If the radio station doesn't want to air Zundel's show, tough
>petunias.  They are _not_ bound to display every viewpoint
>that is out there.

there are large evidentiary gaps in the most publicized "historical" event
of all time. That is not newsworthy?  

Of course it is.  Revisionism is being censored because if the station did
not they would have a jewish economic boycott against it, like the Jewish
boycott that destroyed the independent newspaper in Cleveland last year
for daring to observe Clinton's 2000% disproportionate appointment of
Jews.  

>[for instance, why isn't there a 'flat earth show?']

The Flat Earth Society does not drain millions of dollars in tax-money
>from  the people, while the Holocaust does. People have a right to know
whether the millions of dollars begin extorted from them each year is for
a Lie or not. It is immoral to suppress the evidence against the Holocaust
and continue to extort their money.  The suppression is done deliberately
because the Holocausters know their Lie cannot withstand the light of
scrunity.  

If the Holocaust was evidentiarly sound, the Holocausters would eagerly
welcome all skeptics and publicly debunk them, the way the Round Earthers
have done in public debate.  But the Holocauster have not done so, nor
will they ever do so, because the Holocausters would get their assed
kicked and their frail little Myth would crumble.  

It's crumbling quite nicely anyhow, despite (and partly because of)
thoughtcrime laws, and jewish suppression and censorship.  Revisionism
doesn't need airtime from the biased and jew-dominated press, thank you.
Revisionists are doing well on the internet, and by word of mouth. The
world is slowly but surely awakening to both the Holocaust and Jewish
censorship.  The two go hand in hand.  The Holocausters have far more to
lose then a myth. The lurid reality of Jewish power, propaganda, and
suppression stands to be exposed in a big way.
 
>> But is it any surprise the media hypocritically lies about its being
>> "pluralistic," considering the fact it is dominanted by Jews, the most
>> accomplished and hypocritical liars in history?

>And your anti-semitism rears it's ugly head yet again....

as if the promiscious label "anti-semitism" refutes anything
 
>> The media is no better in allowing dissent than the
>> Nazis they hypocritically demonize.  The media is far worse than Nazis
>> because the media makes the despicable pretense that is allows
differing
>> viewpoints.

>Horseshit.  The media did not wage an agressive war on 
>the rest of Europe and North Africa, and did not attempt
>to wipe out entire ethnic groups (and with the gypsies, 
>they nearly succeeded).  

The "Extermination" has not been proven, only dogmatized and shielded from
popular scrunity by censorship and punitive laws.  

Note:  you have not refuted or even addressed the point that the media
censors like any dictatorship or Nazi regime, but is far worse because of
its hypocritical pretense of allowing "diverse opinions."  

Kurt Stele

>Brian Harmon 
>=========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu



From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 15:00:05 PDT 1996
Article: 65500 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUSTALESE [Tr. CODE FOR ALLIED PROPAGANDA]
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:51:22 -0400
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drobnicki@ycvax.york.cuny.edu wrote:

>In Article 
>Jeffrey  writes:
>	[snip]
>>Look through any 'holocaust' book and you will find numerous examples of
>>the Germans using 'camouflage' terms or codewords, getting the Jews to
>>send off fake postcards, showerheads to disguise a gas chamber, gas
>>chambers described on plans of Crematoria as Lichenkeller [morgue] and
>>so on..... 
>>
>>Try going through Reitlingers book and counting the examples of
>>deliberate German deception.    
>>
>>You will be amazed.

>This is classic revisionist "logic."  Anytime a Nazi uses 
>euphemisms, they are to be taken at their literal word; and 
>anytime they openly admit their crimes (published confessions, 
>IMT testimony, other trial testimonies), they are _not_ to be 
>taken at their literal word.  Thus, when they are lying, they are 
>really telling the truth, and when they are telling the truth, 
>they are really lying.

The difference John, is that the so-called "admissions" were made under
duress (on trial, after torture) and the so-called "euphemisms" were made
without duress by nazis during a time of power when they had no need to
conceal -anything-.

In which situation are the Nazis' statements more likely to be false? 
When made under -duress- (the so-called "admissions") or when made during
a time of power and confidence (the so-called "euphemisms")?

You would have us believe the reverse.

Kurt Stele


>John Drobnicki
>Reference Librarian
>York College/CUNY
>"I speak for no one but myself."

Thank God


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 15:00:05 PDT 1996
Article: 65508 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Take a step back and think about it..
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:08:53 -0400
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <51b6l1$f8f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>> Take a step back and think about it.
>> 
>> Look what we're doing.
>> 
>> We're arguing with people who claim that Germans exterminated Jews with
>> insecticide ("poison gas" -- ooooooh) in shower rooms ("gas chambers"
--
>> ooooooh).  
>> 
>> Think about their claim.  How cheesy.  How utterly -stupid-.  
>> 
>> Let us never lose sight of the big picture.

>Indeed, Herr Wankermeister, let us not lose sight of the fact that you
>bring to bear no evidence that can withstand the briefest scrutiny. That
>is, Herr Wankermeister, when you bring any at all, which is rarely. Case
>in point is the above. You bring nothing but puerile ad hominems to
attack
>the Holocaust with. No evidence that refutes it. No rapier-like intellect
>to tell us why the Holocuast is some gigantix Jewish Conspiracy. Nope,
>what do you bring? Banal slurs like above. 

>Wow, such an "impressive" Nazi you are, Herr Wankermeister. If you become
>any  more "impressive" perhaps then I will be able to stop laughing at
>your stupidy and catch my breath! 

>Mark

yeah, the Holocaust is so airtight that they have to imprison people who
want to question it and censor them from the airwaves.

Tell me another one. 

Kurt Stele

>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil
passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"

Look on p. 79 of Gulag Two where Solzhenitsyn gives the the photographs of
the six top administrators of the Soviet slave-labor system during the
1930's. (Aaron Solts, Naftaly Frenkel, Yakov Rappoport, Matvei Berman,
Lazar Kogan, Genrikh Yagoda).  

All Jews.  

Is Solzehitsyn trying to tell us something?


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 15:00:06 PDT 1996
Article: 65512 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BATF Hit Squad
Date: 14 Sep 1996 17:10:06 -0400
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sgriff@apci.net wrote:

>author@mainelink.net wrote:
>> 
>> Here, normal people, is another symptom of mental derangement:
>> 
>> samk@i-link.net (Sam A. Kersh) wrote:
>> >nrn@tezcat.com (Norman Nithman) wrote:
>> >
>> >>So you are claiming that the BATF wanted to assassinate Koresh?
>> >>--
>> >
>> >Yes.  That was Special Agent Steve Willis' assignment.  He missed and
>> >hit Perry Jones instead.
>> >
>> >
>> >Sam A. Kersh
>> >samk@i-link.net
>> >NRA Life Member
>> >TSRA
>> 
>>   Lemme ask ya -- if there was a hitsquad, howcum they're ignoring
these
>> GunGoofies? Letting 'em publicize all these "exposes" or even letting
'em
>> live?
>> 
>>   I got it! The professionally trained, conspiratorial secret ATF hit
>> squad is *scared* to tackle the GunGoofies. Yeah, that must be it.
>> 
>>   Dopctors say a good laugh is good for our health. At that rate, the
>> GunGoofies will keep me alive forever. They'll be *so* happy to know
>> that.
>> 
>>                                                     Jim

>I agree if BATF had intended to assasinate (read: murder) Koresh. It 
>would have been a simple matter for a sniper to set up in a hide at 400 
>to 600 meters and remove him with one shot. A lot simpler than a dynamic 
>entry, it even could have been set up that that would be the signal for 
>the entry so as to disguise the sniper's work.

They did that well at Ruby Ridge.  Been there, done that.  Here they were
looking for the photo opportunity, to stage a media event, and they
invited all the cameras. If they finished off Koresh that quickly, not
only would it look bad, but there would be little press value, and thus
less government funding. When their glorious raid was foiled they told the
cameras to go away now (3 miles away -- because of the Davidians' alleged
"50 caliber gun") so the agents could conveniently dispense with the
Davidians in Ruby Ridge fashion "for the sake of the children".

But don't get me wrong, I'm sure they'll probably use the sniper MO again.
 They're fond of it, as well as they are fond of the "woops, how'd THAT
fire start?" tac. And why not? Along with murdering the young son and wife
of  Randy Weaver, they also got away with murdering 99 people (100 if you
count the developing fetus), with the women and children, receiving medals
and promotions. 

Events like Ruby Ridge and Waco were inevitable. Our society's structure
and demographics are such that the government cannot be but removed from
the people. Our government is now a souless sterile robot devoid of
ideals, even personality, conscience, or of any ethic beyond
self-promotion. The full effects of Waco and Ruby Ridge evade the press
and are embedded in the collective psyche. 

The victims of Waco don't get a Holocaust memorial for the same reason
they were murdered to begin with: they aren't the right kind of people.
Had Jews been murdered by the government in a temple it would of course be
called deliberate and calculated "anti-semitism!", universally denounced,
movies, endless protests, documentaries, and the criminal prosecution of
all involved. However, because the Davidians had no political power they
were wiped out without little save a reprimand ("you guys gotta be more
careful next time, OK?")  Now the government wants us to just ignore it.
"It was all a mistake" 

"A mistake" is a euphemism used when the murderers are people who have
power. For example, we are told the Israeli bombing of the U.S.S. Liberty
and the Israeli butchering of Palestinians civilians at Qana were both
"mistakes." (Except Annie Alpert et al. who claim the U.S.S. Liberty
bombing was justified.).  

People with power never do anything wrong.  They only make "mistakes." 
That is a perk (and proof) of power is the power to euphemize one's
murders.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sat Sep 14 16:27:36 PDT 1996
Article: 65523 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 14 Sep 1996 17:49:39 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <51c79p$8sl@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) writes:
>>From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
>>Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
>>Date: 13 Sep 1996 13:57:13 -0400

>>joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>>>In article <51aqqd$a2g@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>>Stele) writes:


>>>>More censorship of revisionism by the "free and fair" media.

>>>No, it's not censorship, Kurtsie.  The station in question doesn't have
>>the 
>>>obligation to carry Zundel's ravings.  

>>ah yes, the media only carries those views -it- wants and censors those
>>-it- doesn't want. 

>If you think that there's a market for those views that "the media"
supposedly 
>"doesn't want", go ahead and exploit it.  

The market is there but cannot be reached because of jew-enforced
political correctness. Controversial topics are what radioshow talk hosts
seek. Revisionism is, at the very least, "controversial."  Evidence that
the "Holocaust" is a hoax is most interesting indeed.  

But if they allowed Zundel to explain why the Holocaust is a Lie, even
half an hour a week every week, he would soon have a large audience
listening in to find out whether or not they have been lied to their
entire lives, whether or not the most publicized historical event in
history is a sham (which of course it is).  Ratings would skyrocket.  You
claim so-called "bigoted bilge" doesn't sell but the fact is anything that
is political incorrect has a huge market.

They know this.  That is why they pulled the plug on Zundel.  

Bob Grant's politically incorrect talk-show host on New York's WABC radio
(the 50,000-watt flagship station of Cap Cities/ABC)  was so popular that
even after a boycott by ADP, AMTRAK, Continental Airlines, Delta Airlines,
First Data Corporation, New Jersey Transit, Blue Cross, and Xerox, Bob
Grant's program, Bob was still on the air, as popular as ever, and the ad
revenue kept pouring in. 
Finally the station was bought up by the Jewish-owned and controlled
Disney Company and the show was cancelled by management  -despite- that
his show was a money-maker.  

There is a -huge- market for Ernst Zundel's message.  But Jews enforce the
politically-correct censorship of revisionism over the airwaves,
preventing the market from ever being reached.  It Zundel had been
presenting proof that 3 million Cambodians were never killed, the show
would have been allowed.  But because he questioned the "6 million" Hoax
he was censored.

Jew-enforced political correctness is the reason why revisionism is always
censored, not because revisionism isn't "interesting enough" for prime
time or because there is no market for it.  

Because Jews enforce censorship, those who want to hear revisionism will
have to look elsewhere than the Jew-dominated media (i.e., the Internet).

Be it known:  those views Jews oppose get censored, with few exceptions. 
Even on little A.M. and shortwave stations this rule applies.  Forget what
you were ever taught in school about the media.  Forget the media's lying
claim of allowing "diverse opinions" or "dissenting viewpoints" or
"upholding the principles of democracy."  Forget democracy's claims of
"plurality of viewpoints" and "freedom of speech" which are worthless if
one cannot be heard at large.  Bury forevermore your illusions about an
"unbiased" media. If Jews don't want a view heard on TV or radio, it will
get censored.

Kurt Stele

>(And, in fact, it's clear that there is a small market for such bigoted
bilge 
>-- but it's hotly competed for among the various hogs feeding at the
trough, 
>be it Metzger or the IHR or Zundel or whatever.)  

>But do consider ceasing to whine in the interim.  

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 09:26:48 PDT 1996
Article: 65701 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If Ole walks like a duck, and Ole talks like a....
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:47:34 -0400
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s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan Schneider) wrote:

>In article <6doDoOev1WUE065yn@login.dknet.dk>, 
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>>government said so? Why should I consider nazism criminal just because 
>>the German government with it's silly "laws" say so? I say that you 
>>cannot make political ideas criminal just because you are strongly 
>>opposed to them.You can oppress political ideas but you cannot make 
>>people believe that they are "criminal". Most people easily understand 
>>the difference between political suppression and crime prevention.

>It's always advisable to inform about laws before criticizing them.
Nobody 
>in Germany is punished simply because he's believes himself to be a nazi 
>(most people saying they're nazis in Germany wouldn't know a real nazi if

>he'd bit them in the ass). Anybody who lokes to say so is perfectly 
>allowed to do so.

>Things are getting severe if that person tries to organize a political 
>party that tries to install any kind of organization, that might be a 
>threat to our constitutional status. It's exactly as you say: _MOST_ 
>people in germany easily understand the difference between political 
>suppression and crime prevention. That's why there are only about 0.0125 
>percent of the whole population, that ever had some trouble with that
law.
>Consider that

I doubt if the number is that small, Stefan.  If you obtained it from the
number of people who have been so far imprisoned for thoughtcrime, you are
misled.  That a law is obeyed is no indication of its popularity.  I would
wager that more people than you would like to think find the thoughtcrime
laws in Germany are a disgrace and a hypocritical sham used to protect the
Jewish "Holocaust" a scrutiny it could not otherwise withstand. 
Revisionism is spreading underground in Germany. If man Germans could have
their way (i.e., vote on it), they would probably do away with those laws
altogether.  Lord knows the Germans are sick and tired of paying more
guilt-shekels to fatcat Jewboys.

Kurt Stele

> Stefan


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 09:26:48 PDT 1996
Article: 65704 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocausters Support Censorship, Vindicate Nazism
Date: 13 Sep 1996 14:06:01 -0400
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Several Holocausters have defended the imprisoning of Gerhard Lauck and
the nixing of Zundel from KXEL.  They don't see anything wrong with them.

They justify it on the ground that it is "legal" to do so in both cases.  

If something being legal means it is justified, then the Nazis removing
Jews from German society was justified.  

After all, it certainly was "legal" to do so.

Indeed it was justified, as the Germans finally ripped the lid off a
little nation of clever aliens who always pose as "citizens" in all
countries they inhabit but whose main allegiance, as always, is only to
their own.

Kurt STele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 09:26:49 PDT 1996
Article: 65708 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 13 Sep 1996 13:57:13 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <51aqqd$a2g@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) writes:


>>More censorship of revisionism by the "free and fair" media.

>No, it's not censorship, Kurtsie.  The station in question doesn't have
the 
>obligation to carry Zundel's ravings.  

ah yes, the media only carries those views -it- wants and censors those
-it- doesn't want. 

Yet the media claims to be pluralistic and tolerant of dissent.  What a
hypocritical lie that is.  Zundel's nixing displays that once again, as if
we didn't already know it.

But is it any surprise the media hypocritically lies about its being
"pluralistic," considering the fact it is dominanted by Jews, the most
accomplished and hypocritical liars in history?

The media is biased.  The media is no better in allowing dissent than the
Nazis they hypocritically demonize.  The media is far worse than Nazis
because the media makes the despicable pretense that is allows differing
viewpoints.  

I have far more respect for the open and candid suppression found in a
tinpot banana dictatorship than the underhanded sleazy plug-pulling of the
hypocritical media.  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 11:00:17 PDT 1996
Article: 65817 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation
Date: 14 Sep 1996 16:36:31 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
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kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:

>In article <51a9pj$gl3@colossus.holonet.net>, steven@csnsys.com (Steven
>Casas) wrote:

>*And before you call me an Anti-semite for criticising your spelling,
I'll just 
>*post my standard response.....
>   <>

>Got anything to say about the blue print text and cites I posted proving
>the existence of Zyklon B gas chambers at Auschwitz?  I thought not.

Thats IT!  Kathleen did it!  We can close up shop now.  Kathleen proved
gas chambers where noone else could.   Well, that settles it.  It was in
Kathleens's blueprints all along.  

For your next act do you want to explain Belsen crematoria rates?  

Kurt Stele

>-- 
>kate@accessone.com
>"Most people don't have the luxury of living to be 80 years old, 
>so it's hard for me to feel sorry for them."
>                    -Sen. Phil Gramm, during a floor debate on social
security.


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 15:34:15 PDT 1996
Article: 65858 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Take a step back and think about it..
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:17:49 -0400
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <51f3cl$oud@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >> Let us never lose sight of the big picture.
>> 
>> >Indeed, Herr Wankermeister, let us not lose sight of the fact that you
>> >bring to bear no evidence that can withstand the briefest scrutiny.
That
>> >is, Herr Wankermeister, when you bring any at all, which is rarely.
Case
>> >in point is the above. You bring nothing but puerile ad hominems to
>> >attack the Holocaust with. No evidence that refutes it. No rapier-like

>> >intellect to tell us why the Holocuast is some gigantix Jewish
Conspiracy. 
>> >Nope, what do you bring? Banal slurs like above. 
>> 
>> >Wow, such an "impressive" Nazi you are, Herr Wankermeister. If you
become
>> >any  more "impressive" perhaps then I will be able to stop laughing at
>> >your stupidy and catch my breath! 
>> 
>> >Mark
>> 
>> yeah, the Holocaust is so airtight that they have to imprison people
who
>> want to question it and censor them from the airwaves.

>Tell me, Herr Wankermeister, how many people have been imprisoned in the
>United States for denying the Holocuast? How many people in the United
>States have been "censored from the airwaves" for denying the Holocaust?
>(Keep in mind, Herr Wankermeister, censorship can be done only by the
>Government.) 

You are imprisoned for expressing doubt about the Holocaust in
"democratic" (sic) Germany. If not the U.S. yet, they (Simon Wiesanthal et
al.) are working on it. Their current MO in the U.S. is to censor
revisionism from the airwaves (Zundel from KXEL) and to boycott anyone who
dares speak out (St. Martin Press cancel David Irving's book contract
under Jewish pressure).  Censorship in the general sense can be done by
anyone in power. It may be legal but it is censorship nonetheless.  Mark,
you'll have to find a better knee-jerk apology for Jewish tyranny than
merely citing the "legal definition" of censorship. 

Remember:  

kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>If something being legal means it is justified, then the Nazis removing
>Jews from German society was justified.  

>> Tell me another one. 

>How about, Herr Wankermeister, that you are an ignorant Nazi trollop? 

Tell me another one.

Kurt Stele

>[snip]

>> Is Solzehitsyn trying to tell us something?

>Yes, Herr Wankermeister. But you are, it seems, much too stupid and
>hateful to understand it. 

>Mark

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil
passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------



From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 15:34:16 PDT 1996
Article: 65862 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Why Revisionists Today are Winning on A.R.
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:12:18 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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People today are more suspicious than ever.

Conspiracy theories abound.  Movies such as "JFK" question the "official
line" and present evidence of a cover-up.  People who were once dismissed
as "conspiracy nuts" are now having the evidence for their theories heard,
and believed, in the mainstream.

Polls indicate an increasing distrust on the part of the people towards
the government and the media. It is not an exaggeration to say that there
is an increasing number of people in the nation today, far more than ever
before, who believe they are being deliberately -lied- to.

JFK's assassination, The Gulf of Tonkin incident, Watergate, Iran-contra,
Waco and Ruby Ridge, Hillary's commodities venture, Vincent Foster's
suicide, and several others, collectively add up. The public is indeed
more skeptical than ever of the "official line" that the government and
the media tells them.

Enter alt.revisionism.  

The Holocauster A-team continually posts the assertion that people won't
believe revisionists because revisionism "sounds crazy."  

Holocausters also believe that because there exists relatively few
-consistent- revisionist posters, the Holocauster numerical advantage
helps to discredit the revisionists. They also personally attack
revisionists as a way to further discredit revisionism.

However, since the population is growing increasingly distrustful, the
lurker on alt.revisionism who actually reads the arguments against
Holocaust is increasingly ready to believe that the Holocaust a Lie.

Even those of this increasingly distrustful who do not get even -that-
far, and merely "browse" through the posts on the newsgroup, and merely
notice the simple fact that there are people of intelligence who
continually and vehemently insist the Holocaust is Lie --  that -alone- is
enough to instill doubt about the Holocaust in a growing number of them. 

Indeed, the very fact that there is a newsgroup called "alt.revisionism"
in the first place is alone enough to implant doubt in more and more
people of the increasingly distrustful public, that the "Holocaust" ever
happened. 

No matter how Holocausters' labor to discredit, smear, and refute
revisionists, they cannot offset these dynamics. The very existence of
arguments against the "Holocaust," the very existence of intelligent and
persistent revisionists, the very existence of alt.revisionism itself, and
existence of an increasingly distrustful public, together all contribute
to generating more and more doubt, and these factors cannot be affected by
-anything- the holocausters here say or do. These factors are not affected
by the fact that there is a numerical of Holocausters who post, or by the
content or rebuttals in their posts, or by their smearing and attacking of
revisionists.  

In fact, the Holocauster tactics of smearing and malice and death-wishing
towards Giwer and his family, probably contribute more fair-minded lurkers
to view the holocausters with distaste, and revisionists with perhaps more
sympathy -- if not credibility.

Because of factors they have no control over and cannot offset, the most
notable one being an increasingly skeptical and distrustful public,
Holocausters on alt.revisionism today fight a losing battle.  

Kurt Stele





From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 15:34:17 PDT 1996
Article: 65868 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Posts Fake Testimony
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:55:57 -0400
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <519t0l$785@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>[snip - Giwer lies and refutation of same deleted.]

>>         Were you not trying to salvage your lies why would you object? 

>Perhaps because you're an anti-semetic nazi sympathizer who routinely
>resorts to threats, lies, extortion, and harassment.

coming from a holocauster to a revisionist, that means nothing

Kurt Stele

>[Giwer babbling and incoherent .sig file deleted.]


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 15:34:18 PDT 1996
Article: 65869 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lurkers:  Holocausters Wish Death to Giwer & Son
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:56:22 -0400
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Lurkers, please note that 2 of the Holocausters hate so much that they
actually wish death to a revisionist and to the members of his family
also.

Observe the following bit of dialogue between Mark Van Alstine and Joel
Rosenberg:

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel
>Rosenberg) wrote:

>[snip]

> 
>> I think his son, however, should walk south until his hat floats.  

>Actually, I was hoping that the Giwer-boob would go on a camping trip,
get
>eaten by a bear, and shit off a cliff. It would be poetic justice and
help
>re-establish the karmic balance of the Universe that the Giwer-boob's
>existance disturbs.

>Mark

------------------------

This should give you some good insight into the state of mind of these two
Holocausters, and what motivates them.  Please keep this in mind when
reading their posts.

Regards,

Kurt Stele




From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 16:19:06 PDT 1996
Article: 65875 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Germany and the Jews: Citizenship
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:40:26 -0400
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <323B1098.7707@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>>Matt Giwer wrote:

>[nothing of consequence]

>>First Regulation Under the Reich Citizenship Law (15 Sept 1935),
>>as passed on 14 November 1935.
>>Article 4, section 1.
>>  1.  A Jew cannot be a citizen of the Reich.  He has no right to
>>   vote in political affairs and he cannot occupy public office.
>>  (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/germany/nuremberg/nuremberg.003)
>>Just how much more explicitely wrong do you want to be proven?

>Mr. Giwer is not interested in facts. Those who are, however,
>will note that the law cited above first saw the light of day
>in the Nazi Party Program of February, 1920 (1708-PS),
>suggesting it came as no surprise to the Germany of the
>period. 

>Rosenberg spoke of it in 1920, and advocated a ruthless 
>disenfranchisement of the Jews. In fact, in 1921, he advocated slogans 
>like "Institute measures for the repudiation of all citizenship rights 
>of all Jews and half-Jews." (2432-PS)

>Looking further down the timeline, we find that Jewish
>immigrants were denaturalized (contrary to Mr. whatsisname's
>childish and unfounded assertion) in 1933 - one need only
>check the Reichsgestzblatt, Part I, page 1146, to confirm
>this. Mr. Giwer, a "revisionist scholar" with the attendant
>commitment to truth
>(http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html)
>and honour surely knows this.

>Those interested in learning more about the Nazi program
>against the Jews may wish to peruse 

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-12-jews-0[1-5]
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-07-means-39.html

>Also, see 
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-07-means-40.html
>for a precise list of measures employed against Germany's
>Jewish population, including the Repeal of Naturalization.
>These laws, however, were only a warm-up for the brutalization
>that was to come in 1935 (See, for instance, the "First
>Nurnberg Law," signed by Hitler himself, which reserved
>citizenship for "subjects of German blood." (1416-PS) See
>1417-PS as well, from Nov. 14, 1935, which laid out who was
>Jewish and who was not, as corollary to the earlier
>citizenship prohibitions, 2872-PS, 2874-PS and others, all
>corollary to the anti-Jewish citizenship laws.

Please note that Jews evicted hundreds of thousands of Arabs from their
land, and killed thousands, so Jews could take their land for Jews.  Yet
they hypocritically complain about Nazis evicting them from Germany.  

Jews are no better than Nazis.  They are just good liars.  

Kurt Stele


>Although most of this material has not yet been converted to HTML for
>the web, it will be within a few weeks, so keep an eye on
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-01, which is growing by
>the day.

>Followups have been set to misc.legal, where this discussion
>properly belongs. Should Mr. Giwer elect to pursure it
>further, I suggest that he journey there to do so.

>In short, and as is the norm, Mr. Giwer is full of crap. That
>is simply because....

>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to



From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 16:19:08 PDT 1996
Article: 65878 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer the White Courtesty Phone, Part III
Date: 15 Sep 1996 18:50:30 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>Let me begin (again) with a quote from you:

>========
>Message-Id:   <51aosn$96t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

>Also, one is allowed to discredit or deny the Civil War or Dresden. But
>Jewish money-power has created strong taboos and prohibitions against
>questioning the Holocaust, and in Germany revisionism has been
>criminalized.
>=======

>'Allowed to discredit or deny the Civil War or Dresden?'

>Do you honestly think if i sailed into a university and
>proclaimed that these events did not happen, i'd be 
>treated with anything other than derision and disrespect?

You wouldn't be treated with derision and disrespect at all if you had
counter-evidence against the Civil War.  At that point you would be
treated as a god and lauded for "setting the record straight." If one
debunks the Holocaust, however, for SOME reason (gee, I wonder what that
reason is?)  you are different totally different.

>And if i then argued that Dresden was simply a German post 
>war hoax, you believe people _wouldn't_ suspect i have
>a chip on my shoulder against Germans?

The Jews prate about "eeeeevil Germans" continually, often accusing the
German people as a whole. The Jews obviously have a chip on their shoulder
against Germans yet Jews are never criticized for this or called "racist."
 One is fully permitted (nay, encouraged) to hate Germans.  That was the
purpose of the Holohoax Myth.  Yet if someone questions the "Holocaust"
one is called "having a chip on their shoulder against Jews."  The
hypocritical double standard never ends

>Or even worse, if i argued that the Civil War and the whole
>history of Slavery was simply a concoction of blacks to get
>pity for their current siutation? 

>Do you see the racism inherent in that point of view, Kurt?

There is nothing inherently racist about scrutinizing the Holocaust Myth
and ascertaining whatever is the Truth

>[hint for folks playing along at home: _this_ is why we argue that
> holocaust deniers are anti-semitic. ]

you claim revisionists are anti-semitic because your Myth is considered
beyond scrutiny like Holy Writ

>Come on Kurt, use your noodle.

>I might add, however, that Holocaust denial is _not_ illegal
>in the US, it is very much allowed. How do you think the IHR
>and CODOH manage to continue operations, or the fact that
>Arthur Butz has _not_ lost his job factor in on all this?

not illegal here (yet). They merely censor revisionism from the airwaves. 
That way they can justify their censorship by claiming free market
principles.  I would rather have the open censorship of Germany than the
hypocritical sleazy plug-pulling of the media, who censors by prior
restraint and is dominated by Jews, but who hides these facts. 

>[Some Jewish money-power conspiracy, to date, there is only
> _one_ country where it is illegal to deny the holocaust. ]

Yeah, only one, that being the country that most needs freedom to
ascertain the Truth.

>So, one is certainly _allowed_ to deny the Holocaust, and
>we're allowed to expose them as the loons that they are.

Prove "extermination with gas chambers."  You cannot.

Kurt Stele

>Brian Harmon 
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 16:19:09 PDT 1996
Article: 65881 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer the White Courtesy Phone, Part IV
Date: 15 Sep 1996 18:51:49 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Brian Harmon  wrote:

>And one last time:
>====
>Message-Id:   <51aosn$96t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

>Yet despite the punitive dangers of questioning the Holocaust, there is a
>growing revisionist movement questioning the Holocaust, precisely because
>its discrepancies are far too great to ignore.
>====

>What growing group is this, Kurt? 

>By my count the numbers are dwindling.

>Greg Raven, we rarely hear a peep out of him.

>Bradley Smith, Freidrich Berg, Ross Vicksell, 
>and Faurisson, i haven't seen them in some time.

>Dan Gannon, where's he gone? 

>Marc Lemire?

>Tim McCarthy?

>Milton Kleim has left for his own reasons..

>who's left save you, Giwer-troll, and Moran?

The internet is the death of the Holocaust.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 16:19:10 PDT 1996
Article: 65882 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:56:03 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article  olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) writes:
>>From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
>>Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
>>Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:42:59 +0100

>>In article , Mark Van Alstine
wrote:

>>>Taking into consideration some of your past comments (below), Mr.
>>>Kreiberg, it is self-evident that you indeed are a racist as well as a
>>>Nazi. No suprises there. 
>> ^^^^
>>How do you dare call me a Nazi. 

>Definition of character.   

Why don't I define your character then?

"Joel the slandering Jew."

Run along now, little Jowey.  You have another complaint to file against
me with AOL again.  Maybe that will occupy your time for a bit.  At least
you won't be writing on alt.revisionism for a short period.  For a brief
moment you will spare your comrades from the associative burden of your
posts.

Kurt Stele


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 17:18:43 PDT 1996
Article: 65899 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Real Reason Revisionism is Censored
Date: 15 Sep 1996 19:19:08 -0400
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Why does our "dutiful" press (sic) -refuse- to allow the counter-evidence
to the "Holocaust" to be heard over the airwaves?

It could not be because it is "not newsworthy" enough.  They have 24 hour
news networks that report on such details as a celebrity's latest plastic
surgery. Surely the counter-evidence against the most widely-publicized
historical event in history is, at the very least, "newsworthy."
  
Could the reason for why revisionism is censored is because the media is
dominated by Jews?

1)  WALT DISNEY

a- The largest media conglomerate in the world today 

b- headed by Michael Eisner (jewish)

c- the Walt Disney Picture group is headed by Joe Roth (jewish) and
includes Touchstone Pictures and Caravan Pictures

d- Disney also owns Miramax pictures, which is headed by the Weinstein
brothers (jewish)

e- Disney owns Capital Cities/ABC, whose subsidiary ESPN, is headed by
president and CEO Steven Bornstein (jewish).

2)  TIME WARNER

a- the -second- largest media conglomerate in the world today, behind Walt
Disney

b- headed by CEO Michael Levin (jewish)

c- Time Warner's is the largest in the magazine publisher in the country
and includes Time, Sports Illustrated, People, and Fortune (headed by
Norman Pearlstine -- jewish)

d- Time Warner's subsidiary HBO is the country's largest pay-TV cable
network

e- Time Warner is also the world's largest record company.

3) VIACOM

a)  The third largest media conglomerate

b)  Headed by Sumner Redstone (born Murray Rothstein -- jewish).  Redstone
-actually- owns 76% of Viacom's shares ($3 billion).

c)  Viacom produces films through Paramount pictures which is headed by
Sherry Lansing (jewish)

d)  Produces and distributes TV programs for the three largest networks
and ows 12 television stations and 12 radio stations.

e)  Viacom's publishing division Prentic Hall Simon & Schuster, and Pocket
Books, and distributes videos through over 4,000 Blockbuster Video stores.

f)  Viacom is the world's largest provider of cable programming, most
notably through Showtime, MTV, and Nickelodeon.


NOTE:  The leadership of the top 3 media conglomerates Disney, Time
Warner, and Viacom is jewish.


4)  Most of the television and movie production companies that are not
owned by the largest corporations are also controlled by jews.  New World
Entertainment which is considered the premiere independent TV program
producer in the U.S. is owned by Ronald Perelman (jewish) who also owns
Revlon cosmetics.

5)  The chairman of New World is the former head of entertainment
programming at NBC, Brandon Tartikoff (jewish)

6)  The best known of the smaller media companies is DreamWorks SKG which
formed in 1994 by recording industry mogul David Geffen (jewish), former
Disney Pictures chairman Jeffrey Katzenbgerg (jewish), and film director
Steven Spielberg (jewish). With the cash and connections these three
possess it is likely that DreamWorld may soon be in the same league as the
big three media conglomerates.

7)  Two other large production companies, MCA and Universal Pictures, are
both owned by Seagram Company, Ltd., the liquor giant, whose president and
CEO is Edgar Bronfman. (jewish)  Edgar Bronfman is also president of the
World Jewish Congress.

8)  Films produced by the just the five largest motion picture companies
mentioned above -- Disney, Warner Brothers, Sony, Paramount (Viacom) and
Universal (Seagram) -- accounted for 74 per cent of the total box-office
receipts for 1995.

9)  The number five biggest media company is the Japanese Sony
Corporation, whose U.S. subsidiary, Sony Corporation of America, is run by
Michael Schulhof, a jew.  Alan J. Levin, another jew heads the Sony
Pictures division.

II)  Newspapers

Jews own the nation's 3 most prestigious and influential newspapers:  the
New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post.  These 3
papers set the trends and guidelines for nearly all others.  They
originate the news; the others merely copy it.  

1)  The New York Times

a-  headed by CEO Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Jr. (jewish)

b-  Executive editor is Max Frankel (jewish)

c-  Managing editor is Joseph Lelyveld (jewish)

d-  The Sulzberger familly also owns throught the New York Times Co. 33
other newspapers including the Boston Globe, 12 magazines including
McCall's and Family Circle with circulations of more than 5 million each.
7 radio and TV broadcasting companies.  

e-  The New York Times company transmits news stories, features, and
photographs by wire to 506 other newspapers, news agencies, and magazines.

2)  The Washington Post

a-  Headed by Katherine Meyer Graham (jewish).  She is principal
stockholder and chairman of the board of the Washington Post Co.

b-  Her son Donald is The Washington Post's publisher (jewish).

c-  The Washington Post Co, has a number of other media holdings in
newspapers, television, and magazines, most notably the nation's
number-two weekly newsmagazine, Newsweek.

d-  In a joint venture with the New York Times the Post publishes the
International Herald Tribune, the most widely distributed English language
daily in the world

3)  The Wall Street Journal

a-  Owned by the Dow Jones Company, whose chairman and CEO of Dow Jones is
Peter R. Kahn (jewish)

b-  The nation's largest circulation newspaper -- 1.8 million copies each
weekday.

c-  The Dow Jones company also publishes 24 other daily newspapers and the
weekly financial tabloid Barron's, among others.

4)  Other New York papers

a.  In January of 1993 the New York Daily News was bought from the estate
of the late jewish media mogul Robert Maxwell (born Ludvik Hoch -- jewish)
by the real-estate developer Mortimer Zuckerman (jewish).  The Village
Voice is owned by Leonard Stern (jewish) the billionaire owner of the
Hartz Mountain pet supply.

III)  A Note on the Purported "free competition" of the print Media

After TV news, daily newspapers are the most influential information
medium in America today. Sixty million of them are sold each day.  They
are divided into some 1500 publications.  

Does this large number of publications indicate there exists substantial
independence and competition within the media industry?  Hardly.

Out of the 1500 only 25% are independently owned, and out of that number
over 100 have circulation over 100,000.  Only a handful are large enough
to maintain independent reporting staffs outside their own communities;
the rest must depend on these few for all of their national and
international news.

In only 50 cities are there more than -one- daily newspaper, and
competition is frequently nominal even among them, as between morning and
afternoon editions under the same ownership.  For example, several cities
including Birmingham, AL., Springfield, Mass., and Syracuse, NY. have
morning and afternoon editions that are both owned by Advance
Publications, a holding company of the Newhouse brothers (jewish).  

IV.  The former top three TV networks ABC, NBC, and CBS and their current
status of ownership

The big three in television network broadcasting used to be ABC, CBS, and
NBC.  With the consolidation of the media empires, these three are no
longer independent entities.  While they -were- independent, however, each
was controlled by a jew since its inception:

1)  ABC:  by Leonard Goldenson (jewish)

a-- executive producers of ABC news programs are all jewish:  Victor S.
Neufeld (20/20), Bob Reichbloom (Good Morning America), and Rick Kaplan
(World News Tonight)

2)  CBS:  first by Willliam Paley (jewish) and then by Laurence Tisch
(jewish)

a-- recently purchased by Westinghouse Electric Corporation.  Nevertheless
the man appointed by Laurence Tisch, Eric Ober (jewish) remains president
of CBS News.

3)  NBC:  first by David Sarnoff and then by his son Robert Sarnoff (both
jewish)

a-- NBC is now owned by General Electric; however, the NBC news president
is Andrew Lack (a jew) as are executive producers Jeff Zucker (Today),
Jeff Gralnick (NBC Nightly News), and Neal Shapiro (Dateline).  

Also, for several decades these networks have been staffed from top to
bottom with jews.

V.  Other:  e.g., the top 3 newsmagazines 

1)  Time magazine  

a)  weekly circulation of 4.1 million.

b)  as mentioned before, Time magazine is part of the media conglomerate
Time Warner which is headed by Gerald Levin (jewish)

2) Newsweek 

a)  weekly circulation of 3.2 million.

b)  owned by Katherine Meyer Graham (jewish)

3) U.S. News and World Report

a)  weekly circulation of 2.3 million

b)  owned by Mortimer Zuckerman (jewish), who is also editor-in-chief of
the magazine

c)  Zuckerman also owns the Atlantic Monthly magazine and as mentioned
before, New York's tabloid newspaper the Daily News which is the 6th
largest paper in the country.

4)  the top publisher of children's books is Western Publishing, with more
than 50% of the market.  Its chairman and CEO is Richard Snyder (jewish)
who just replaced Richard Bernstein (jewish)  

5)   Note of the Newhouse media empire:  founded by the late Samuel
Newhouse, a jewish immigrant from Russia.  Now run by his two son Samuel
and Donald Newhouse. Newhouse owns 26 daily newspaper which include the
top newspapers of Cleveland, Newark, and New Orleans.  Newhouse
Broadcasting consists of 12 television broadcasting stations and 87
cable-TV systems, including some of the largest cable networks; the Sunday
supplement _Parade_, with a circulation of more than 22 million copies per
week; some two dozen major magazines, including the New Yorker, Vogue,
Mademoiselle, Glamour, Vanity Fair, Bride's, GQ, Self, House & Garden, and
all the other magazines of the wholly owned Conde Nast group.


VI.  Gentile media ownership and control

Ted Turner:  amassed a fortune in advertising and built a large and
successful cable-TV news network. Turner made a bid to takeover CBS.  To
block the bid CBS invited billionaire theater, hotel, insurance, and
cigarette magnate Laurence Tisch (jewish) to launch a "friendly" takeover
of the company, and from 1986 till 1995 Tisch was the chairman and CEO of
CBS, removing any threat of non-jewish influence there. Subsequent effort
by Turner to acquire a major network have been obstructed by Levin's Time
Warner, which owns nearly 20 percent of CBS stock and has veto power over
major deals.  Subsequently, jewish newsman Daniel Schorr, who had worked
for Turner, publicly charged that his former boss held a personal dislike
for jews.

Turner employs a number of jews in key executive and managment positions
at CNN. Turner has never take public positions contrary to jewish
interests.  Despite being an innovator and garnering headlines, Turner has
never commanded the wealth and power to be a true media master. 
Furthermore, he has discussed a deal with Time Warner to merge, which
would make Time Warner the number one media conglomerate, and Levin would
become Ted Turner's boss.  Turner may have decided if you can't beat 'em,
join 'em.

Rupert Murdoch:  owns the fourth largest media company, News Corporation,
which owns Fox Television Network and 20th Century Fox Films, both of
which are headed by Peter Chermin (jewish). Murdoch has never take public
positions contrary to jewish interests.  

Even those newspapers still until under Gentile ownership and management
are so thoroughly dependent upon jewish advertising revenue that their
editorial and news reporting policies are largely contrained by jewish
likes and dislikes.  It holds true in the newspaper business as elsewhere
that he who pays the piper calls the tune.

VII.  CONCLUSION:  the control of the opinion-molding media is nearly
monolithic.  All of the controlled media -- television, radio, newspaper,
magazines, books, motion pictures -- speak with a single voice, each
reinforcing each other.  Despite the appearance of variety, there is no
real dissent, no alternative source of facts or ideas accessible to the
great mass of people which might allow them to form opinions at odds with
those of the media masters. They are presented with a single view of the
world -- a world in which -every- voice proclaims the equality of the
races, the inerrant nature of the jewish "holocaust" tale, the immorality
of attempting to halt the hordes of third world immigrants pouring into
America, and the desirability of genocidal race-mixing.  And we have just
seen that the media masters are to a large extent jewish.

The jews dominate the media ownership and control.  Yet how is it that
virtually -noone- discusses this incredible and significant fact.  The
media for some reason never reports mentions this fact.  The fact of media
ownership and control is highly significant fact because those who control
the media wield incredible power to mold the public opinions.  

Would it be too -extreme- to say that the media has effectively
-concealed- this fact? 

Do the media have the power to further orthodoxy to the Holocaust tale? 
Yes.  Are the media masters using their power to further orthodoxy to the
Holocaust tale? Yes.  If revisionism -is- true and the holocaust is
largely false, can this truth ever be given a hearing, much less a -fair-
hearing with the current status of media ownership?  No.  Is it any wonder
why the public does not know of the revisionist position and of the body
of facts in its favor?  No. Is it wonder why the public does not know of
the evidentiary deficiencies of the Holocaust tale? No. Considering the
fact that the media was heavily jewish at the time of WWII as well, along
with the torture, coercion, and obvious one-sidednessness of the WWII
"warcrime trials," as well as the benefit the jews received and receive
>from  the Holocaust tale, is it plausible that an anti-German hoax that
serves jewish interest could have been perpetrated and given wide
publicity and acceptance?  Yes.

Do the same jewish power which conceals from the public the fact of its
overwhelming media dominance also have the power to conceal the truth
about the Holocaust tale as well? 

Yes.

Kurt Stele



From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 19:45:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65914 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: USS Liberty: Interview with a Surviving Marine
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:00:06 -0400
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      MARINES MET DEATH ON USS LIBERTY

         San Antonio Express-News

             August 11, 1996

            By Maury Maverick



Note:  Columnist Maverick reports that his

interview with Liberty survivor Bryce Lockwood

received more comments than anything he has

ever written before in over 22 years as a

newspaper columnist.



            ====================



"In June 1967 jet aircraft and motor torpedo boats

of Israel brutally assaulted the American naval

intelligence gathering ship USS Liberty. The

attack was preceded by more than six hours of

intense low-level surveillance.  The attack lasted

more than two hours, killing 34 Americans and

wounding 171 others, and inflicted over 821

rocket, cannon and machine-gun holes in the

ship..."

    Liberty News, first quarter, 1996



              ----------------



Only recently I found out from James Ennes Jr.,

author of the out-standing hook "Assault On The

Liberty," that there were three Marines on the

Liberty. Two were killed. Bryce Lockwood, a staff

sergeant, survived and won the Silver Star for

saving the lives of shipmates while risking his

own. He is a resident of Springfield, Mo.



Lockwood and I talked on the telephone and

exchanged letters. He's a union truck driver and

an ordained Baptist preacher. Because of space

limitation I had to edit his remarks.



Q:  What were you Marines doing on the Liberty?



A:  We were linguists. I spoke Russian; the two

killed Marines spoke Arabic.



Q:  Were you crew members anti-Israel before the

attack?



A:  No, many of us were friendly to Israel. Some

of the guys even made an Israeli flag which was

hanging on the starboard bulkhead. An Israeli

torpedo exploded within a few feet of the Israeli

flag the guys had made.



Q:  What were the sailors and Marines doing on the

Liberty?



A:  We wanted to know what the Russians were

doing. We weren't even targeted against Israel.



Q:  What about the torpedo attack by Israel?



A:  It exploded inside the ship about 10 feet from

me, killing a bunch of guys, about 25. Lots of

stuff in my face, but I survived and saved some of

my shipmates.



Q:  Who ordered the attack?



A:  I think Yitzhak Rabin, chief of staff at the

time. When I heard Rabin's granddaughter crying

about being deprived of her grandpa I thought

about the moms, wives and children who lost their

loved ones during the attack on the Liberty.



Q:  When did the Israelis quit attacking?



A:  When they beard the USS Saratoga pilots were

on the way to defend us. The Israelis were jamming

our distress signals.



Q:  Didn't the U.S. pilots get ordered back?



A:  Yes, by (Defense Secretary) Robert McNamara. I

was told (President) Lyndon Johnson was sitting

near him. To this day Lyndon Johnson deeply

offends me.



Q:  What do you want after all these years?



A:  I want the Israelis to quit lying. I want them

to tell the truth. I could forgive them if they

just told the truth.



Q:  Why does it bug you so much?



A:  Every now and then the mothers of some of my

shipmates call me. They start crying. I have to

fight back tears. Sometimes I don't make it.



Q:  Anything else you want to tell the folks of

South Texas?



A:  Adm. Kidd's U.S. Navy court of inquiry at

Malta refused to enter into the record any

testimony about troop helicopters. The Israelis

sent in two of them to finish off the job. They

were fully loaded with Israeli combat troops armed

with automatic weapons. They backed off only when

the USS Saratoga acknowledged our Mayday distress

signal.  When we tried to bring up the Israeli

helicopters at the court of inquiry we were told,

"You weren't asked that. Confine yourself to

questions asked."





Author's note: My research reflects that the

attack on the Liberty is the only such attack in

our history not honored with a congressional

investigation. Why not? Because of pro-Israel

political money donations and because of the worst

kind of intimidation.



Semper Fidelis.



To leave a message for Maury Maverick, call the

Express Line at 512 554-0500 and punch 4422.



aaaaaa

"Mistakes?" Journalist Compares Qana to USS Liberty

aaaaaaaa

The Phoenix Gazette

Editorial Page Column

June 5, 1996





By Mark Genrich

The Phoenix Gazette



On June 8, 1967, Israeli air and naval forces

attacked the "USS Liberty," a research ship, in

the Mediterranean Sea.



The recent Israeli shelling of a United Nations

refugee camp in Lebanon had striking similarities

to an Israeli attack on a non-combatant American

ship sailing in international waters 29 years ago.

On June 8, 1967, Israeli air and naval forces

attacked the "USS Liberty," a technical research

ship, that was peacefully sailing off the Sinai

Peninsula in the Mediterranean Sea. The Israelis

used torpedoes, napalm and machine-gun fire to

kill 34 Americans and wound 171 others.



Just as the Israelis claimed the shelling of the

refugee camp was an accident, so too, did they

claim that the attack on the "USS Liberty" was

an accident.



There were other similarities:



1. The use of extraordinary brutality.



The April 18 shelling struck a U.N. peacekeepers'

compound in south Lebanon killing more than 100

men, women and children. Knight-Ridder Newspapers

reported that survivors were overcome by the

magnitude of the killing.



"Grown men staggered around the blood-soaked

compound, weeping uncontrollably. Wailing women

threw themselves onto the burned and mangled

corpses of relatives. As they weaved among rows of

bodies shrouded with blankets, stepping over

scattered body parts, even some battle-hardened

U.N. soldiers were in tears."



During the attack on the "USS Liberty," the

Israelis used unmarked aircraft, jammed the ship's

radios on both U.S. Navy tactical and

International Maritime Distress frequencies,

destroyed by machine-gun fire life rafts that had

been dropped over the side by crewmen preparing to

abandon the ship, and refused to offer immediate

aid upon cessation of hostilities.



2. The claim Israelis do not target innocent

non-combatants.



Reported Associated Press writer Greg Myre,

"Israel says it does not intentionally target

civilians...But the gray gunboats off the port

city of Sidon, 25 miles south of Beirut, fire day

and night at civilian cars heading south on what

is normally the country's busiest highway. Since

Friday, three cars have been destroyed after being

hit by shrapnel, and three more have skidded off

the road and crashed in high-speed attempts to

evade the Israeli fire."



According to Human Rights Watch, an organization

that tracks human-rights abuses worldwide, Israel

has displayed "indiscriminate and

disproportionate" shelling of villages in

southern Lebanon. While the human-rights report

appropriately condemns Hezbollah guerrillas for

indiscriminately firing Katyusha rockets into

Israel, it also documented Israel's manifest

violations of international law including,

"Targeting whole villages without specific

military objectives and without regard for

civilian casualties; specifically targeting the

civilian infrastructure, including power stations

and water reservoirs; deliberately creating a

refugee crisis to put pressure on the Lebanese

government; and deliberately targeting ambulances

and civilian vehicles."



A "USS Liberty" survivor, Lt. Cmdr. David Edwin

Lewis, says, "The Israelis obviously had

sufficient time to plan their armament load. There

were apparently heat-seeking missiles used to take

out the tuning coil of every antenna, there were

fragmentation bombs used to take out the parabolic

dish fore and aft. On the first strafing run

virtually all communications and all means of

survival were destroyed. If it was an accident, it

was the best prepared accident on Earth."



3. The Israelis deny the attack was deliberate.



An investigation by Maj. Gen. Franklin van Kappen,

a Dutch military adviser to the United Nations,

concluded, "While the possibility cannot be ruled

out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling

of the United Nations compound was the result of

gross technical and/or procedural errors."



The "Los Angeles Times" reported, "The most

damaging point of the report - and to Israel's

case - has been proof that Israel flew

surveillance aircraft over the camp while the

firing was going on. Contrary to repeated denials,

two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted

vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time

of the shelling...Israel denied this to the United

Nations and publicly until the British newspaper

"The Independent" reported the existence of an

amateur videotape showing an Israeli pilotless

reconnaissance aircraft - the kind used by

artillery spotters to perfect their aim - over

Qana during the shelling." Once aware of the

videotape, Israel changed its story.



Finally, the most recent unbiased research into

the assault on the "USS Liberty" was conducted

by Dr. John Edgar Borne at New York University.

His detailed analysis concludes that "the account

of the attack given by the Liberty men is the

correct and truthful one" and that the attack

"was deliberate and that all available evidence

points to this conclusion."



(E-mail Mark Genrich, deputy editorial page

editor, at MLGedit or MLGedit@aol.com.)



(Copyright, Phoenix Newspapers Inc.)


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 19:45:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65917 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jews try to Prevent USS Liberty Memorial
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:13:13 -0400
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Letter to the Milwaukee Jewish Council following the Council's efforts to
block
construction of a library honoring men who died in the attack. 

                              James M. Ennes, Jr.


                                                                  May 28,
1988

James A. Fromstein
1st Vice President
Milwaukee Jewish Council
1360 North Prospect Avenue
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202

Dear Mr. Fromstein:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to the clipping I sent.  There are
some
points which require comment.

First, you say that our association "declines to accept the explanation of
events which is acceptable to both our government and the Israelis." 
Please
believe that 250 survivors don't reject the Israeli account easily and
without
good reason.  I enclose an article I did for Americans for Middle East
Understanding which addresses the issue in some detail, complete with
footnotes and references, more thoroughly than I could reasonably do here.

Since you are systematically maligning the character and intentions of
everyone involved on this side of this issue, I do hope you will take time
to
read the article.  The matter is really not as one-sided as you think.

It is not correct to say that the Israeli explanation was acceptable to
the
United States.  Virtually every top official of every U.S. Government
Department involved with the Liberty from Dean Rusk on has gone on record
calling the attack deliberate and rejecting the Israeli version of events.
 An
official study of the Israeli excuse conducted by the Department of State
in
1967 rejected every key point in the Israeli excuse as untrue, unlikely,
impossible, or contrary to more compelling American evidence.  Even that
staunch defender of Israel Clark Clifford is now on record having advised
Lyndon Johnson that the attack was deliberate.  CIA and NSA reports drew
the
same conclusions.  Yet, because of complaints such as yours, and
especially
because of the ever-present, discussion-stopping complaint that airing
this
subject would "cater to anti-Semites," the facts remain hidden.

It is because of those complaints that the circumstances of the attack
were
not fully investigated in 1967.  If the event had been investigated at the
time, it would not be the open sore it is today.  But it remains an
unresolved
scandal and probably will remain so because it is still being covered up.

Nor is it true, as you imply, that our government vindicated Israel.  The
truth is that the Court was forbidden to take testimony from Israel, to
visit
Israel, or to ask questions of Israel.  As a result, the inquiry was
restricted almost entirely to probing the adequacy of the ship's training,
communications and readiness, and the performance of the crew while under
fire.  Naturally, the court found "no evidence that the attack was
deliberate," because it was not permitted to look for any.  Israel's
excuse
was accepted at face value despite strong indications that they were
lying. 
Contrast that four day shipboard "investigation" with the eight months
that
our congress spent investigating the Stark attack, including huge
delegations
sent for extended periods to Iraq!

The Court even refused to take testimony from several key witnesses
including
important lookouts and ship's officers, and ignored vital records that
would
ordinarily have been entered into the record.  The Court's behavior was so
outrageous that the ship's Acting Commanding Officer, George Golden, who
happens to be Jewish, leaked to the press while the Court was still in
session
in Malta a report that the attack was deliberate and that the Court of
Inquiry
was a sham.  That opinion was and remains shared by the entire crew.

I was officer of the deck on the day of the attack.  In that capacity, I
was
the only officer on the bridge during almost the entire daylight period
preceding the start of the attack.  I was on the bridge during much of the
air
attack.  I was the only officer who personally witnessed most of the pre-
attack reconnaissance and the events leading up to the attack.  Yet my
testimony, along with that of other key officers, lookouts, and vital
witnesses whose testimony pointed toward a deliberate attack, was kept out
of
the official record.  These are among the reasons we consider the inquiry
a
sham and a vehicle for cover-up.

You cannot accept our unanimous view, based on our personal experiences
and
expert knowledge, that the attack was planned and deliberate?  At least
you
should try to understand why we feel so strongly.  As an American, you owe
it
to yourself to listen carefully to what your fellow Americans have to say
instead of relying exclusively, as you clearly do, on the material
published
by ADL and AIPAC.  One way to understand is to read my book, especially
the
expanded and updated 1987 Ballantine (Ivy) edition.  Won't you do that?

If you could have seen the attack from the ship, I'm sure you would view
it
differently.  We are the ones who watched thirteen very close
reconnaissance
orbits during eight hours of daylight before the attack in which the
Israeli
pilots examined us from as low as about 200 feet, so low that they waved
to us
as they passed and our men waved back!  We heard the pilots informing
their
headquarters by radio that we were an American ship.  Our intercept
station in
Germany heard the same transmissions.  Yet now the Israelis claim in their
"official reports" that no reconnaissance aircraft came under 7,000 feet! 
If
the attack were an accident as they claim, there is no need for them to
lie. 
And if they are not lying, there is no need for both governments to block
our
testimony.  If you can provide any sound reason except to cover up a
deliberate attack to explain why for 21 years our testimony has been
refused
by our government, we would all be glad to hear about it.

Instead of a through investigation, however, Congress was persuaded by the
Israeli Lobby and Jake Javits that questions about the Liberty would
"incite
anti-Semitism."  So, except for some questions asked in relatively
unrelated
congressional hearings, no real congressional inquiry was ever held.  I
did
talk personally, however, with a senior CIA official who told me he
prepared a
report for the White House which concluded that the attack was indeed
conducted deliberately against a ship known to the Israelis to be
American.

To us, among the most persuasive arguments is the fact that the Israeli
government is telling a story that is directly contrary to what we saw
clearly
with our own eyes.  If it was an accident, as they claim, why can't they
tell
the truth?  For instance, the Israeli government has long insisted that
they
circled the ship three times looking for a flag before firing, but that we
did
not display a flag.  Not so.  We had a very large, clean flag displayed in
a
good breeze, and the attacking Israeli pilots did not circle looking for
it--
and didn't need to anyway because barely an hour earlier their
reconnaissance
aircraft had reported to their headquarters that the American flag was
there. 
So why are they lying?

Israel claims that the torpedo boats asked for identification and that we
"arrogantly" responded with a signal meaning "identify yourself first." 
The
truth is that our signalman flashed over and over in English, "U S NAVY
SHIP,
USS LIBERTY, U S NAVY SHIP" until he was wounded and his lamp was shot
out. 
They saw the signal but chose to ignore it.  So why are they lying?

They claim the attack occurred because they detected us from about 26
miles
away and misjudged our speed at 32 knots when actually we were moving only
5
knots.  No one familiar with the sea or with radar equipment can believe
that
they made this 500% error.  The excuse is contrived and untrue.  They
invented
it to explain away what happened next.  The fact is, it is absolutely
impossible for them to have detected us beyond their maximum radar range
of
about 15 miles, and if they had detected us, we (with a higher radar mast
and
a more stable platform) would have detected the boats at the same time.

They claim that they stopped firing immediately when they drew close
enough to
see our flag.  Any man on that ship will tell you they continued to fire
for
another 40 minutes after examining the flag at close range, and that
during
this time they drew close and methodically machine-gunned our liferafts
waiting in the water for survivors.  Firefighters and litter carriers
recall
bitterly and clearly being fired upon time after time by the torpedo boats
long after the torpedo explosion--while Israel continues to maintain even
today that the torpedo was the last shot of the day!

In addition, I have been in personal touch with two Israeli military men
who
observed the attack from the Israeli side.  Both men tell me that the
Israelis
knew at the time that they were attacking an American ship.  Congress,
because
of AIPAC/ADL pressure, has refused to take their statements.

If by some peculiar circumstances all those things could have happened in
a
sequence of accidents, at least the Israelis would be able to tell a story
that would square with what we saw happen.  But they cannot.  On the
contrary,
we have scores and scores of eyewitnesses all eager to testify that the
Israeli version of events is untrue, but because of the constant pressure
and
Congressional fear of AIPAC (and constant cry of "anti-Semitism"), no
member
of Congress has ever been willing to listen (except Adlai Stevenson, who
was
duly punished for his misbehavior, as you know).

Next, you tell us that our "cause is inextricably entwined with the
Liberty
Lobby" and that you must always stand in opposition to such an
organization.

Here you are especially misinformed.  It is true that the Liberty Lobby
has
written sympathetically about this subject for years.  But so has the
Washington Post, People, The Los Angeles Times, The Seattle Times, The San
Diego Union, Retired Officer Magazine, Christian Science Monitor,
Newsweek,
Naval Institute Proceedings, VFW Magazine, The Congressional Record, Drew
Pearson, Jack Anderson, Evans & Novak, George Wilson, Bill Small, Brad
Knickerbacker, Philip Geyelin, Georgie Anne Geyer, Joseph Harsch, James
Jackson Kilpatrick, Mary McGrory, Admiral Thomas Moorer and many others. 
To
smear us as anti-Semites just because one of the many to write favorably
about
us happens to be considered anti-Semitic is outrageous and unfair.

The fact is, the USS Liberty Veterans Association decided early in our
existence that the Liberty Lobby has a very different agenda from ours and
not
one we want to be identified with.  Others we avoid are the Christian
Defense
League, Instauration, America First, Institute for Historical Review,
Truth
Missions, The Order, and many others that pop up like broken sewer lines. 
We
steadfastly avoid all such organizations and any outfit that displays any
hint
of anti-Semitism.  Not only do we not share their view of the world, but
we
are offended by racism and bias of all kinds.  We also have a number of
Jewish
members including one Jew on our board of directors and another who is
currently running for election.  We have, in fact, asked both Liberty
Lobby
and America First to quit pretending that there is an alliance between
us--and
at one point we asked our attorney to demand that they do so.

The constant effort of these organizations, especially Liberty Lobby and
America First, is to invite survivors to their functions, then to
advertise
widely the presence of our member in such a way as to suggest that there
is an
alliance.  The fact is, we have asked all survivors to ignore all their
invitations, interview requests, letters and other overtures.  Just last
year
our members resolved unanimously that as a matter of policy we will
steadfastly avoid any alliance, association, involvement, participation,
interviews, or any other cooperation with Liberty Lobby or the other
groups.

This is, however, a free country, and last year when one of our members
was
invited to speak at the Liberty Lobby Convention, he defied the direct
orders
of our president and addressed the convention.  We were powerless to
prevent
his appearance and we have been embarrassed by it ever since.

It is as if Liberty Lobby decided against your wishes to support some
project
of the Milwaukee Jewish Council, and then you were systematically
slandered in
the press because of your perceived "alliance" with Liberty Lobby.  I can
well
imagine your reaction.  That is exactly the position we are in today.

We are especially pained when our honorable and patriotic effort to
remember
our dead shipmates is deprecated and even clearly slandered because of a
claimed alliance with an unrelated organization, when in fact we share
fully
your abhorrence for the same organization.

Do you know that, because of Jewish fears of "fanning the flames of anti-
Semitism," our brave skipper was handed his Medal of Honor by a minor
official
in a small private ceremony instead of in the White House as is customary?

Admiral Moorer tells us that this is the only such case during this
century. 
When the Stark was attacked, the President of the United States personally
attended the memorial ceremony at Mayport.  For fear of "fanning the
flames of
anti-Semitism," there was no ceremony at all for our dead.  Even the
funerals
were played down and ignored by the press.  Unlike the Stark, no one met
our
wounded when they returned to the United States.  No delegation met our
caskets.  TV news ignored the arrivals.  No newsmen interviewed our
survivors
or filmed the stricken wives and mothers.  The award ceremonies for our
heroes
were not reported.  Because of protests from Israel and fear of "igniting
the
flames of anti-Semitism," the memorial ceremonies we organized at
Arlington
were ignored.  For fear of AIPAC, no congressman attended.  Every
legitimate
and customary move to honor and preserve the memory of our lost shipmates
is
blocked, belittled, deprecated and criticized either by those who killed
them
or by those who claim to fear anti-Semitism.  Can you blame people who
believe
"anti-Semitism" is more a weapon than a real concern?

Because of this unfair treatment our dead, however, mothers of those men
have
told us that they have been made to feel as if their sons died in
disgrace. 
That is all a direct result of campaigns such as yours which seem designed
to
degrade and dishonor their service and which deny these mothers the honors
customarily given men who die in the service of our country.

The USS Maine has a huge memorial built by the Congress of the United
States
and located at Arlington National Cemetery.  No Spaniard has been known to
complain.  No Japanese complains about the USS Arizona memorial in Hawaii
and
the annual ceremonies held in honor of the men entombed there.  No Arab
complains about the ceremonies held for the men of the Stark.  No German
complains about remembrances for the Lusitania.

We think we have a duty to remember our shipmates who died for their
country. 
We think that the constant crescendo of objections is unwarranted, out of
line, and offensive.  If anything is likely to "fan the flame of anti-
Semitism," it is your hysterical over-reaction to these well deserved
honors
for Americans killed by Israel.  And we don't want to see that either.

We believe we are as entitled as any other Americans to preserve the
memory of
our lost friends without constantly having our intentions and our moral
values
questioned.

Mr. Fromstein, I submit that we are not your enemy.  Neither are the Grobs
or
the good citizens of Grafton.  We are fellow Americans.  Some of us are
Jewish.  None of us harbors the sort of hateful feelings that you and your
editorial writers persist in attributing to us.

We and our dead comrades and their families are entitled to the same
consideration and respect as men from the Stark, Maine, Arizona,
Lusitania,
and a hundred other ships that happened to be attacked by other nations? 
None
of us deserve the hysterical name-calling you have focused upon us.

I realize that your personal commitment to Israel may never permit you to
see
the events of June 8 as clearly as the men who witnessed the attack.  I do
hope, however, that you will try to understand that our differences have
been
arrived at honestly, that we are not monsters, that we are not in league
with
the devil, that we are not anti-Semites or allied with bigots, and that
like
any other Americans we are entitled to preserve the memory of our lost
comrades without interference from those who may prefer to forget that it
was
Israel that killed them.

While we will probably never agree on the circumstances surrounding the
attack, we do share your revulsion toward ethnic bias of all kinds.  In a
spirit of patriotism and fairness on this Memorial Day, won't you join
with us
to stop the mud-slinging and help give these brave, dead Americans the
honors
they have been deprived of for so long?

                                       Sincerely,


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 19:46:00 PDT 1996
Article: 65918 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg's Writing Bested by George
Date: 15 Sep 1996 18:30:30 -0400
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <51b5hp$f48@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) writes:

>>From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
>>Subject: Joel Rosenberg's Writing Bested by George
>>Date: 13 Sep 1996 19:53:35 -0400

>>Joel is obviously miffed at something. He has posted at least 10 headers
>>with George's name in it and continues to smear George is a coward and
an
>>anti-semite. 

>Ah:  the stopped clock is right twice a day.  "George is a coward and an
>anti-semite. "

juvenile, trivial as usual.

>>However, if you care to browse through Joel Rosenberg's
>>pulp-fantasy books you will conclude George is a much better writer than
>>Joel.  I believe that explains what this all about.

>Well, paying customers like yourself are certainly entitled to their
opinions 

FYI Joel, I never paid for the book.  I don't buy dime-store paperback
kitsch. It came from a friend who produced from a box in his garage full
of books destined for the refuse pile.  BTW told me he does -not-
recommend the book.  

>("Ching!  Ring up another one, Jocko!")

But from the above it is good to see you are honest about your "artistic
motive" (sic).

>-- but what exactly is it that George writes?  To be honest, I haven't
bothered to do a LOCIS search -- and, unlike George, I don't wish to
pretend I did.  

ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) wrote:

>Oh, Goat, Goat -- Capricorne!

>If you only knew Dionysios. If you'd only let the spirit of Friedrich
>Nietzsche take you by the cloven hoof and bring you to Dionyios!

>The God of Creation through Excess! The God of the Intoxicated, those
>intoxicated with the sheer exuberance of existence. The God of the
>germinating power of the Irrational.

>Leave behind this Christian balast, these chains fashioned from Jewish
>folklore. Yahweh hates the naked. Dionysios loves them. Come join in
>the Dance, not the Christian Dance of Death, but Dionysios' Dance of
>Life. Come dance with naked feet, with naked feet and naked loins.

>Cast away your chains, these dead and dying images. Demand back your
>innocence, your pure pagan innocence; and if they will not give it,
>seize it. It is yours; it is you!

>Don't take upon yourself the image THEY have fashioned for you. When
>you stare into their Abyss, their Abyss stares into you. Don't vilify
>yourself in mockem them. Think rather of the clean air, the open sky,
>and the power of your loins. Reclaim YOUR Gods, who were not vile, nor
>diseased, nor mandators of genocide.

>The freedom is there, you need but claim it. Cast off the foul pelt
>and be pure again. Dance in the Procession of Purity, while flutes
>play, as it wends its way through lush green, not desert scrub.
>Hold high the Chalice of Life, and drain it to the dregs

>Fulfill your destiny: be a God among Gods, not a goat among goats!

>=============================================================

>MULTAE GENTES, UNA STIRPES!
>      "Ursus Major"

>From  his posts he is more cultured, his language more expressive, artful,
finished. He is also more intelligent. In comparison you are derivative,
sappy, predictable, and flat. You must be between books now because you
have nothing better to do.

Kurt Stele


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my
FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject
line.


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 19:46:01 PDT 1996
Article: 65922 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: USS Liberty: bombed to hide another butchery
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:11:20 -0400
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>from  The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs

May/June 1996







                                 USS Liberty

                Did Israel commit one war crime to hide another?



                           By James M. Ennes, Jr.









Washington Report readers know the story well.  In 1967 on the fourth

day of the Six Day War, the armed forces of Israel attacked the American

intelligence ship USS Liberty for 90 minutes in international waters in

broad daylight following several hours of close, low-level

reconnaissance.  Thirty-four men died, 171 were hurt, and the ship was

so badly damaged that it had to be scrapped.



The government of Israel has lied about the circumstances ever since,

telling a story markedly different from that told by American survivors.

Congress has refused to question Israel's demonstrably false account,

even though the State Department's own analysis finds the Israeli story

to be untrue.



Yet the most pressing question remaining from that infamy is not whether

the attack was deliberate.  That was settled long ago for most

reasonable people. The question is why Israel risked its cozy

relationship with America by killing American seaman on the high seas.



Indeed, spokesmen for Israel use that question in Israel's defense.

Why, they ask, would Israel risk alienating its American friends?



So why did Israel attack?  Intelligence analysts and others have long

supposed that Israel attacked to prevent the ship from reporting the

impending invasion of the Golan Heights, then imminent despite cease

fire pleas by the United States.  Israel's defenders reject that

explanation.



Recent reports in the Israeli and Egyptian press suggest another

powerful possibility.



According to eyewitness accounts by Israeli officers and journalists,

the Israeli Army - the army that claims to hold itself to a higher moral

standard than other armies - executed as many as 1,000 Arab prisoners

during the 1967 war.



Historian Gabby Bron wrote in the Yediot Ahronot in Israel that he

witnessed Israeli troops executing Egyptian prisoners on the morning of

June 8, 1967, in the Sinai town of El Arish.



Bron reported that he saw about 150 Egyptian POWs being held at the El

Arish airport where they were sitting on the ground, densely crowded

together with their hands held on the back of their necks.  Every few

minutes, Bron writes, Israeli soldiers would escort an Egyptian POW from

the group to a hearing conducted by two men in Israeli army uniforms.

Then the man would be taken away, given a spade, and forced to dig his

own grave.



"I watched as (one) man dug a hole for about 15 minutes," Bron wrote.

"Afterwards, the (Israeli military) policeman told him to throw the

shovel away, and then one of them leveled an Uzi at him and shot two

short bursts, each of three or four bullets."



Bron says he witnessed about ten such executions, until the grave was

filled. Then an Israeli Colonel threatened him with a revolver, forcing

him to leave the area.







USS Liberty was nearby



As those executions were underway, America's most sophisticated

intelligence platform, USS Liberty, was less than 13 miles from El

Arish.



We were close enough to see the town mosque with the naked eye.  With

binoculars we could make out individual buildings and might have seen

the executions if we had looked in the right place.



Could our operators have heard voice radio messages revealing these

killings? Did senior Israeli officers sanction the murders, or did they

learn of them? How would they have reacted to the knowledge that USS

Liberty was nearby and might have heard incriminating radio traffic?



Would they have been desperate enough to attack an American ship?











The Liberty attack was a war crime



The attack on USS Liberty was itself a war crime.  US Navy Commander

Walter Jacobsen, a Navy Legal Officer then doing graduate work at George

Washington University, conducted an extensive legal analysis of the

attack.



His conclusion, reported in the Winter, 1986, Naval Law Review, was that

several aspects of the attack violated provisions of the Geneva

Conventions -- war crimes. Specifically, Commander Jacobsen found that

the attack was not legally justified, that it constituted an act of

aggression under the United Nations Charter, that the use of unmarked

aircraft, the wanton destruction of life rafts in the water, the jamming

of international radio distress frequencies, and the failure of the

torpedo boat commanders to render immediate assistance to a disabled and

helpless enemy were all violations of international law.









US refusal to investigate violates Geneva Conventions



For years, USS Liberty survivors have asked Members of Congress to

investigate the circumstances of the attack.



The Israeli version is untrue. We did fly a flag. We did identify

ourselves. We were in international waters. They did not stop firing

after seeing our flag as they claim, but continued to fire for another

40 minutes. The attack lasted 75 minutes and was not brief or accidental

as Israel claims. We did not "attempt to hide" or escape when detected,

as Israeli has charged.  These things are easy to prove.



More important are the war crimes discussed by Commander Jacobsen.

These things should have been investigated in 1967.  Yet U.S. officials

have ignored the offenses for 29 years, refusing to investigate or even

to acknowledge them.



That refusal is itself a crime.  The United States, as a signatory to

the Geneva Conventions of 1949, is "under the obligation to search for

persons alleged to have committed, or to have ordered to be committed"

violations of the conventions, and to see that violators are brought to

trial.



There are no exceptions. War crimes reported to government officials

must be investigated and perpetrators tried.



Yet even this is ignored by U.S. officials. Liberty survivors for many

years have reported the crimes committed against us and have requested

an appropriate investigation.  Despite the law, our complaints are

ignored.  No investigation of these charges has ever been held.



Recently Liberty's Joe Meadors, a former president and chairman of the

Liberty Veterans Association, has filed formal complaints with the House

and Senate Ethics Committees against members who have ignored our

complaints.



To no surprise, these complaints, too, are being ignored.  









Navy Refusal to investigate violates Navy Regulations



When the Liberty was attacked, Captain Joseph Tully in the aircraft

carrier USS Saratoga received the ship's call for help and immediately

sent jet aircraft to her assistance.  Tully's jets were recalled almost

immediately by orders from Washington.  As a result, American jet

fighter support was withheld for more than 90 minutes.  By then the

damage was done and 34 men were dead or dying.



Had those aircraft been sent, they would probably have arrived before

the torpedo boats started their part of the attack. At least 25 lives

could have been saved.



We survivors have tried for 29 years to learn why we were denied the

immediate air support that we were promised in case of trouble. There

are no answers.  The Navy still will not even admit that help was not

sent, even though one of the aircraft carrier commanders has offered to

testify that he was forbidden to help us.



The Uniform Code of Military Justice, the body of law that governs every

military person, provides that "Any person subject to this chapter who

before or in the presence of the enemy . . . does not afford all

practicable relief and assistance to . . . troops, vessels, or aircraft

of the armed forces . . . when engaged in battle . . . shall be punished

by death or such punishment as a court martial may direct."



That provision was clearly violated when Liberty's air support was

withheld.  Yet the Navy will not even admit that we were not defended.



George Orwell suggested in 1945 that some animals are more equal than

other animals.  Some countries, too, it would seem.







James Ennes retired from the Navy in 1978 as a lieutenant commander

after 27 years of enlisted and commissioned service.  He was a

lieutenant on the bridge of the USS Liberty on the day of the

attack.   His book on the subject, Assault on the Liberty

(Random House, 1980), is a "Notable Naval Book" selection of the

U.S. Naval Institute and was "editors choice" when reviewed in

The Washington Post.





From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 19:46:02 PDT 1996
Article: 65929 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:53:24 -0400
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:

>: >Yeah.  "The Media" doesn't give a hell of a lot of coverage to 
>: >flat-earthers, either.  That damned intolerant media.
>: 
>: as if the Holocaust is as scientifically and mathematically airtight as
>: the round earth theory (geesh. You wish)

>History isn't a scientific or mathematical discipline, Kurt.  Within
>the constraints of the methodology, however, it's just as airtight.
>The historicity of the Holocaust isn't vaguely controversial, and is
>doubted only by a tiny number of crackpots.

>Such as yourself.

>: If there were huge evidentiary gaps in the "round earth theory" it
would
>: be permitted on the airwaves and discussed at length.  One can be a
>: flat-earther without problem but if one is revisionist he can be thrown
>: into jail. Obviously the reason for censoring revisionism are political
>: and not scientific.  
>: 
>: Jewish money power and politics is the reason why it is censored.  

>Golly, Kurt--Jews are a much more influential group in the US than
>in Germany; and yet holocaust denial is censored in Germany, and not
>in the US.  How can such a thing be?

The fact is, revisionism in America -is- censored, but instead of being
done by the government it is done by the media. Censorship is censorship,
whether done by the government or by media bosses.  

And holocausters denounce Nazis for censorship yet support censorship when
done by the government (in Germany) or by the media.  It's pure hypocrisy.

Kurt Stele

>Bill


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 20:28:53 PDT 1996
Article: 65931 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Int'l Journal of Intelligence rejects Israel's Excuse
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:04:39 -0400
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The following appeared in the Fall, 1995 (Vol 8, No 3) Issue of

the International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence





                 The Attack on the Liberty: an "Accident"?



                                    by



                             Reverdy S. Fishel





     Although David Rodman's review of The Secret War Against the

Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People, by John

Loftus and Mark Aarons, notes some of the serious flaws in that

work, his critique contains its own serious flaw that should gall

anyone who knows a few basic, uncomplicated facts about Israel's

8 June 1967 attack on the electronic intelligence ship U.S.S.

Liberty.



     All serious scholarship on the subject accepts Israel's

assault as having been perpetrated quite deliberately, but Rodman

says that the "most credible" explanation of the attack is that

it was an "accident."  To see so flagrant a misstatement in IJIC,

considering its standards of factuality, is startling.  Assault

on the Liberty (1980), by James Ennes, a lieutenant who was on

the bridge during the attack, was a very big seller; so the

facts of the case need not be out of anyone's reach.  In fact,

Israel's attack on the Liberty was as accidental as Japan's

attack on Pearl Harbor.  



                            SCANNING THE SKIES



     The U.S. Government had posted the Liberty off the coast of 

Gaza, in international waters, to monitor developments in the

region during the Six-day War.  (The Liberty's mission will be 

discussed in detail below.)  At dawn 8 June, Israeli aircraft

began reconnoitering the ship, some flying so close that the

pilots could clearly be seen, and as low as masthead height,

obviously  photographing it.  This extensive observation lasted

seven hours and involved eight separate observations, at about

0600, 0900, 1000, 1030, 1100, and 1130, 1200 and 1215 p.m.  U.S.

intercept stations twice overheard Israeli pilots reporting that

the ship was American.  The visibility conditions were perfect;

the ship's American flag was flying free and clear in a good

breeze.



     At 1400 a well coordinated attack by jet aircraft and

torpedo boats began.  Jets hammered the virtually unarmed ship

with cannon and rockets, and napalmed it.  Its forward

machineguns were wiped out in the first firing pass, and whatever

transmitting antennas survived that pass were disabled by the

second.  Nine minutes into the attack, crewmen jury-rigged a

transmitter to an antenna.  But the radiomen discovered that four

out of five of the ship's radio frequencies, including the

international distress frequency, were being jammed.  Ironically, 

the only time Liberty could transmit was while the jets were

firing their missiles.  A frantic cry for help was sent to the

Sixth Fleet, only 400 miles away and off Crete; despite the 

Israeli jamming, the Liberty's plea for assistance was received.  

The patchwork transmitting arrangement ceased functioning soon

afterward.  



     Torpedo boats soon arrived and continued the attack, firing

five torpedoes, with one hitting and killing 25 men.  They then

leisurely circled the defenseless ship for 40 minutes, pumping

hundreds of 40-mm, 20-mm, and 50-cal. rounds at wounded men on

deck, stretcher bearers and fire fighters.  Thinking the ship was

about to sink, the crew threw life rafts over the side; the

attackers machinegunned those too.  With increased radio activity

>from  the U.S. Sixth Fleet indicating an impending U.S. response

(many of the Fleet's messages bore "Flash" precedence), the

Israelis suddenly contacted the U.S. embassy and informed it of

this "accident."  It was probably the longest "accidental" attack

in the history of naval warfare -- an hour and 15 minutes.



     Two separate flights of jets from the carriers America and

Saratoga were recalled by Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara,

the first flight probably because Washington was not absolutely

certain of the attackers' identity and was leery of starting a

war with the Russians if they were the guilty party.  The second

flight was recalled after receipt of the Israeli explanation.





                          MORE EVIDENCE OF GUILT



     In addition to the above-mentioned circumstances which show

that Israel's attack was deliberate -- the lengthy and careful

surveillance, the radio jamming, etc. -- numerous other details

belie Israel's professed innocence.  They include:



     * The Israelis initially claimed they had "mistaken" the

Liberty for the Egyptian ship El Quseir.  But the El Quseir was

only 40 percent the size of Liberty (4000 vs. 10,400 tons).  The

El Quseir was an old, rusted-out horse transport that bore about

as much resemblance to the Liberty as a rusty VW does to a new

Cadillac.  The Liberty was arrayed with numerous specialized

antennas, and an ultra-modern (for 1967) 16-foot microwave dish,

a device possessed by no other ship in the world except her

sister ship Belmont.  She bore standard U.S. Navy markings, which

included a freshly painted 10-foot-high hull number, and Liberty

on the stern. 



     * The radio jamming is by itself damning evidence that the

assailants knew exactly whom they were attacking.  Such jamming

requires intimate advance knowledge of the target being jammed,

obtained by extended monitoring of its signals.  And this was

selective jamming; it struck Liberty's frequencies and no others. 

Afterward, in one of their ever changing explanations, the

Israelis claimed to have learned the ship's identity when they

heard its distress signals.  But the attack continued for sixty-

six minutes after the first distress signal, which the Israelis

had jammed, was sent.  Had this particular Israeli claim been

true, they would have recalled the torpedo boats before they even

reached the ship.



     * The Israelis claimed that the ship's U.S. flag hung limp

because there was no wind.  Later, when presented with the fact

that the flag had been perfectly visible, they claimed that they

thought that the ship was an enemy vessel flying false colors. 

The extended radio monitoring, exposing considerable advance

investigation of Liberty's communication facilities, refutes this

claim. 



     * The Israelis claimed that the torpedo boats, after first

sighting the ship, had called in the aircraft to attack after the

ship refused to identify itself.  This is an obvious lie, because

the attack was clearly a pre-planned and well coordinated one-two

punch employing different branches of the Israeli Defense Forces. 

The jets were already intent on attacking the ship before the

Liberty came into the torpedo boats' radar range.  Directly

contradicting themselves, the Israelis later claimed that their

aircraft had called in the torpedo boats.



     * The Israelis eventually admitted that before the attack,

their commanders had compared reconnaissance photos of the

Liberty with Jane's Fighting Ships.  But they claimed that before

the attack they twice telephoned the U.S. naval attache in Tel

Aviv inquiring whether the Liberty was a U.S. ship and were told

that there were no U.S. Navy ships in the area.  They claimed

that having received a negative reply, they decided that the ship

had to be the El Quseir.  However, the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv,

and later the naval attache, emphatically stated that no such

inquiries were made.  The Israelis not only knew the ship's

nationality and that she was an "ELINT" ship; they also knew she

was the Liberty herself.



     * Immediately preceding the attack, an Israeli pilot

recognized Liberty as a U.S. ship and radioed this information to

IDF headquarters.  He was instructed to attack anyway.  This

dialogue was intercepted at the U.S. embassy in Beirut.  Former

U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter revealed the existence

of this intercept in 1991. 



     *  Finally, there is evidence, circumstantial but clear, of

a relationship between the attack on the Liberty and a

postponement of Israel's planned attack on the Golan Heights. 

The Golan attack was scheduled for 11:30 a.m. on 8 June; the

Liberty was spotted by 6 a.m. or earlier; last-minute orders

delayed the Golan attack; the Liberty was put out of commission;

and the Golan attack occurred shortly thereafter.  The vaunted

IDF made very few mistakes in that war.  



     After the attack Secretary of State Dean Rusk recommended a

strong response, and Presidential Counselor Clark Clifford

advised President Johnson to treat Israel in the same manner as

the U.S. would treat the Soviets or the Arabs if they had

committed the atrocity.  The U.S. would certainly not have taken

this insult in silence had the offender been any country but

Israel.  But President Johnson stoically accepted Israel's

explanation.  The Navy conducted a Court of Inquiry, which

ignored and even suppressed testimony that the attack had been

deliberate; it dealt only with the actions and performance of the

Liberty crew.  State Department legal advisor Carl Salans

performed an assessment of Israel's official explanation; with

only the Navy's highly incomplete and erroneous preliminary

investigation to go on, he thoroughly discredited the Israeli

Government's claims of innocent error.  The logical next step was

to confront the Israelis with his findings, but that was not

done.  The U.S. Government's inaction was completely out of

keeping with the outrageousness of the attack.



     What was Israel's motive for this act?  The scheduling of

the Israeli assault on the Golan Heights for 8 June was a move to

defeat an intense effort in the United Nations to halt the war, a

cease-fire having been scheduled for 9 June.  Such pressure was

also being applied by the U.S. Government.  The IDF leaders were

under pressure to acquire the Golan before the cease-fire was

imposed, preferably without being labeled the aggressor (as in

1956 when Israel had colluded with Britain and France to attack

Egypt).  But with all the pressure to attack Syria, and after all

the hurried preparations to do so, the Golan attack was suddenly

called off within hours of its scheduled commencement.  Why? 

Obviously, someone in the IDF leadership feared the Liberty might

intercept some of the many signals then filling the air that

would expose Israel's preparations for invasion.  They might then

be forced into a cease-fire before they conquered the coveted

territory.





                        THE LOFTUS AND AARONS BOOK



     Loftus and Aarons's book, the subject of Rodman's critique,

is a collection of preposterous and demonstrably false theories

and allegations.  With regard to the Liberty attack, the only

significant detail they get right is that it was deliberate, but

they actually make the ludicrous statement that Israel's attack

was justified because "the Liberty was gathering electronic

information on Israeli troop movements and sending it to British

intelligence, which in turn relayed it to the Arabs."  Not only

does this statement lack any genuine authentication, it also

betrays a conspiracy-mindedness that makes all their other

concoctions suspicious.  Another claim born of this same free-

ranging inventiveness is that "U.S. intelligence attempted to

curry favor with the Arab oil producers by giving the precise

details of Israel's order of battle to the Arabs during the war." 

Other ridiculous claims:



     * "Civilian `spies' of the National Security Agency (NSA)"

had wrested control of -- i.e. hijacked -- the Liberty from the

U.S. military and the Joint Chiefs of Staff; "Commander McGonagle

[Liberty's skipper] did not know it at the time, but the real

masters of his ship were the civilian spies of the NSA."  That

U.S. ELINT ships' collection assignments were drawn up at NSA is

well known; it is not the big secret that the authors make it. 

They state that only an individual known as an NSA "Major" and

two others "had access to the supersensitive communications

areas" on the ship, where in reality well over 100 men worked. 

The individual they refer to was Allan Blue, a 23-year-old Arabic

linguist, who was killed.  Blue was a GS-7 -- a relatively low-

level civilian NSA employee, not a "major"; and NSA certainly

does not confer military rank.  



     * "The Israelis tried to jam the ship's frequencies, to no

effect.  The Liberty's equipment was much too sophisticated to be

stopped in that fashion."  Anyone who wants to believe this

statement should ask the American radiomen who were desperately

trying to find an open frequency with which to alert their

potential rescuers, while their comrades were falling dead around

them. 



     * Liberty "was there to spy on the Jews.  That was its only

mission."  Had this been the case, Hebrew linguists would have

been aboard; there were none.  There were at least four Russian

and three Arabic linguists aboard, however; that indicates the

ship's intelligence targeting.  Additionally, Ennes has recently

disclosed that a special tasking of the ship, apart from

gathering all the information on every party it could, was to

determine if TU-95 "BEAR" Bombers of the Egyptian Air Force were

controlled and flown by Soviets.  Ennes also says that "at least

two men recall that their orders were to concentrate on Soviet

intercepts and to ignore any Israeli signals they happened to

hear.  The order was `Note the signal and, if it is Israeli, drop

it.'"



     Loftus and Aarons's other falsities concerning the Liberty

incident -- let alone those included in the rest of their work --

are far too numerous to mention here.  They continually cite

unidentified sources -- "confidential interviews" of "former CIA

officer[s]" and "former NSA employee[s]," etc; thus they are free

to invent whatever suits them.  Yet Rodman says this work

"deserves to be taken seriously."  They allege "a massive

espionage campaign against Jewry and Israel by western

intelligence agencies," and claim that these agencies "aided Arab

armies during the many Arab-Israeli wars."  Rodman terms this

work "an important subject that has thus far not received its

due." 



                         A QUESTION OF MOTIVATION



     Rodman's treatment of the Liberty attack resembles the

accounts put forth by the Israeli Government.  He repeats

Israel's obviously false initial explanation of mistaken

identity, stating that the Liberty was "roughly the same size and

shape" as the El Quseir.  He admits to some knowledge of the

arguments regarding the deliberateness of the attack mentioned

above; therefore he cannot claim innocence, but he states that

those who maintain that the attack was deliberate "are unable to

present incontrovertible evidence" of their claim.  He would have

us believe that "Until proved otherwise, the official explanation

remains the most credible."  The only official explanations,

apart from the ever changing ones presented by Israel, are the

seriously incomplete Navy inquiry and the Salans report, which

fails to address much of the evidence described above.  These

lack authority because of those flaws.  But while the U.S.

Government has never officially examined most of the above

circumstances or admitted that Israel's attack was deliberate, it

also has never accepted the Israeli claim that the attack was in

error.  Liberty survivors have presented voluminous evidence of

Israel's guilt to the U.S. Congress and have requested an

investigation, but without success.



     As to the motivation for the attack, Rodman omits the 

oft-mentioned theory concerning the Golan invasion presented

above, which is plausible, probable, and damning.  However, he

states that "many unofficial accounts of the incident assert that

the attack was deliberate, part of a devious Israeli plot."  The

many "unofficial" accounts that assert Israel's guilt have been

provided by persons of such stature and reputation as Dr. Louis

Tordella, NSA's Deputy Director in 1967, who termed one of

Israel's explanations "a nice whitewash"; a former Chairman of

the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Thomas Moorer; former

Secretary of State Dean Rusk; and Liberty survivors.



     One of Rodman's errors is of a different nature: he

frequently misuses the term anti-semitic.  Semites are

descendants of Shem -- Jews and Arabs.  Rodman even applies the

term anti-semite to Saudi King Ibn Saud, himself a semite. 

Liberty survivors, some of them Jewish, have been given this

label simply for calling attention to Israel's attack, as are

many other people who criticize the Israeli Government.  



     Rodman states that the Liberty attack caused "some" loss of

life.  Thirty-four Americans killed, 171 wounded -- 205 purple

hearts out of a crew of 293.  Some casualties indeed.





     Note on sources:  Ennes's Assault on the Liberty, is out of

print, but autographed copies with updating enclosures are

available through Terry's Book Store, P.O. Box 789, Woodinville,

WA, 98072, for $20.  A more recent study, also definitive, is

John Borne's book, The USS Liberty: Dissenting History vs.

Official History.  Borne's work is especially valuable for

findings that have turned up in the years since Ennes's book came

out.  It is available by writing to AET, PO Box 53062,

Washington, D.C., 20009, for $13.95.  Numerous survivors'

accounts and official documents are in the author's possession,

such as the "Israeli Preliminary Inquiry 1/67," otherwise known

as the "Yerushalami Report,"; the State Department's "Salans

Report;" the report of the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry, and State

Department telegrams.  The Liberty literature also includes

numerous articles in such periodicals as the Naval Law Review and

Middle East Policy.  



     Two other books are devoted to the attack: Conspiracy of

Silence and Pearl Harbour II; both contain many serious factual

errors and outlandish claims, the latter being the source of the

"NSA Major" myth that is repeated by Loftus and Aarons.  Warriors

For Jerusalem by Donald Neff, provides a good account of the UN

proceedings dealing with the Six-day War and of the Israeli-

Syrian conflict during that period.  







From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 20:28:54 PDT 1996
Article: 65932 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Statement by USS Liberty Crytologic Technician
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:13:29 -0400
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A statement by Liberty survivor Joe Lentini:
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 13:59:13 -0800

From: Web Form Mail

Reply-To: LENTINI.JOSEPH@epamail.epa.gov
Subject: Visitors' Registry

Even the IDF officers on duty that day in 1967 now say they had
identified the U.S.S. Liberty prior to the attack.

They have said this publicly on U.S. National TV and have also indicated
that, contrary to the original official
 Israeli statement that the ship
flew no flag, they thought we were "flying false colors."  It may take
some time, but eventually the truth is exposed.  In recent times it has
been the Israeli government itself that has verified what we survivors
have said all along!

To all those folks who were not there that day, who have not carefully
studied the facts as they are recorded by both sides, I suggest that if
they doubt the attack was planned and carried out deliberately, they
should research U.S. Naval records, official pictures, and information
available from the State of Israel. This is not, nor has it ever been, a
religious issue.  The issues revolve around the politics of an ally who,
when it was perceived to be in its best interest, attacked and killed
U.S. Navy men.  They revolve around the politics of the U.S. which kept
a President from allowing a military response to come to our
aid/comfort/protection.  Finally, they revolve around the U.S. politics
which kept our President then from presenting the Medal of Honor to our
Captain and a more recent George Bush from even meeting with survivors
while we were visiting the White House.

Notice please that there is nothing anti-religion in any of those
statements.  Liberty survivors were wronged by Israelis whose religion
happens to be Jewish and U.S. politicians who were guided by monetary
political issues.  Nothing more - nothing less.

Perhaps the recent tragedy in Israel will help those who try to claim
that what did happen could not have happened, accept that the IDF in
1967 did whatever it felt was necessary to accomplish its goals.
Israelis are still living in the lands taken during that "war," lands
that might not have been taken had the U.S.S. Liberty remained untouched
on station!

The historical facts are there - please read them prior to making any
claims that Israel was innocent.  I was there!  It was no accident!  I
can only hope and pray that what happened to me and my shipmates never
has to happen again, especially not at the hands of an "ally!"

------------------------------------------------------------------

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From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 20:28:54 PDT 1996
Article: 65933 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer The White Courtesy Phone, Part II
Date: 15 Sep 1996 19:10:39 -0400
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>Let me begin with a quote from you:

>=====
>Message-Id:   <51aosn$96t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

>> You analogy is misplaced.  There is nothing contradictory or irregular
>> about the bombing of Dresden, nor is there a case to be made against
>> Dresden's occurrence. If there is someone has yet to bring it forward
in a
>> cogent documented fashion. 
>=======

>Now, using the very method 'Revisionist Scholars' use to 
>deny that the holocaust occurred, i will argue that 
>Dresden never occurred.

>1. the death toll varies? can't these historians keep their numbers
straight?

>'Revisionist Scholars' like Robert Faurrison, Greg Raven, and the
>like often use the fact that the Auschwitz death toll has varied
>depending on which scholars you spoke with, or when you spoke with them.

>For instance, Robert Faurisson wrote an article (available on Greg
Raven's Web 
>site, see http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/misc/auschwitz_deaths.html)
listing
>and discussing the various death tolls at Auschwitz over the past fifty
>years. The basic thrust of his article is that any such dispute over the
numbers
>argues that Auschwitz was not, in fact, an Extermination camp.

>The implication of this argument is that any historical event with such 
>a disparity in the numbers is also invalid, or perhaps even a 'invention
>of quacks' as Faurisson put it.

>Strangely enough, the death tolls at Dresden varied as well.

>[ http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/germany/dresden/dresden.001 ]

>  From: Times Colonist, Feb. 9, 1995 (A20)    

>  "..  The Nazis first said about 70,000 people died but then raised it
to
>  250,000, saying the extras were refugees.  The Communists put it at
>  about 320,000.  Both figures are considered propaganda.

>  A new study by Griebel's museum found the death toll was probably
>  between 25,000 and 35,000.

>Additionally, an article posted to USENET by Marc Lemire some time ago
>argues that 135,000 people died during the Dresden raid, but in a later
>article he robo-posted, it is argued that 250,000 people died in the 
>Dresden raid!

>[see http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/lemire.marc/1995/lemire.0795
> the first is titled: Holocaust At Dresden, by George Fowles and appeared
> in the Barnes Review (a Carto Mag) the second is called Dresded: A Real 
> Holocaust and is attributed to someone named 'vertrauen'. ]

>So, i ask you Kurt, what's the matter with these scholars? Why should
>I believe that Dresden was bombed when in fact they can't keep their
>numbers straight?

>Or, could it be that a variation between scholars and a re-evaluation
>of the number killed doesn't mean the even never happened?

>This is, of course, one small point. let's move on, shall we?


>2. Eyewitness Accounts of the Holocaust are exaggerated, fake stories, 
>   they never could have happened.


>This is a point many 'Revisionist Scholars' argue at considerable
>length.  They claim that eyewitness accounts of the Holocaust cannot
>be believed, because they are loaded with stories of 'jumping buckets
>of flesh' and the like.

>But don't take my word for it.  In the words of 'Revisionist Scholar'
>Mark Weber:

>  Unreliable Testimony

>   Holocaust historians rely heavily on so-called "survivor testimony" to

>   support the extermination story. But such "evidence" is notoriously 
>   unreliable. As one Jewish historian has pointed out, "most of the
memoirs 
>   and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full of preposterous
verbosity, 
>   graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated
self-inflation, 
>   dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias,
partisan 
>   attacks and apologies."

>[From an aricle entitled: The Holocaust: Let's hear both sides, by Mark
Weber of 
> the IHR. see: http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/pamphlets/bothsides.html ]

>Now, the argument is often made that because the Holocaust contains
[according
>to the Deniers, i'd like to see a list of their examples] wild or
exaggerated
>stories, the Holocaust tale cannot be believed.

>By extrapolation, any historical event that contains such wild
fabrications 
>cannot be believed.

>What about Dresden?

> From an Article posted to USENET by Marc Lemire, entitled: DRESDEN: A
REAL HOLOCAUST
> [archived at nizkor under:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/lemire.marc/1995/lemire.0795 ]
>    
>  MELTING HUMAN FLESH
> 
>       Others hiding below ground died.  But they died
>  painlessly--they simply glowed bright orange and blue in the
>  darkness.  As the heat intensified, they either disintegrated into
>  cinders or melted into a thick liquid--often three or four feet
>  deep in spots.
>[..] 

> 
>Melting Human Flesh?  How could any eyewitness have seen this without
>melting in the process? This sounds far more ludicrous than any story 
>I've read about the Holocaust.

>Can I then conclude that the Dresden bombing never happened?

>No? 

>3. Photographs of Corpses.

>One point many 'Revisionist Scholars' also belabor is that piles of 
>corpses 'don't prove a thing', and that they are simply post war 
>fakes. 

>Well Kurt, there's are pictures of starved corpses at Beslen online:

>[see:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/germany/dresden/images/dresden-pyre-0
1.jpg ]

>And there are pictures of corpses from Dresden online:

>{see:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images/belsen01.jpg ]

>Now, here's my thesis:

> I say that these pictures from Dresden are forgeries, and that Nazi
> authorities went to their own concentration camps, snapped photos
> of dead inmates, and then labeled them 'Corpses from the Dresden
Firebombing'.

> Prove me wrong.

>4. Physical Evidence

>Revisionist Scholars often ask where the piles of ashes and corpses from 
>the Holocaust are, or any other physical evidence for that matter  

>Well, a funny thing happens if you travel to Dresden. _IT'S STILL THERE!_
>IF Dresden was firebombed, it must not have been firebombed very hard!
>Where are the bombed out buildings, the piles of corpses, and the debris?
>Surely a firebombing on this scale must have left some damage.

>You'd like to see physical evidence of the Holocaust, and i'd like to
>see physical evidence of the Dresden firebombing. Where is it?

>[the truth is that physical evidence for _both_ of these events
> exist, but i'm not pressing that point here.]

>5. Other Issues:

>For that matter, Kurt, I've seen a great many documents discussing the
Holocaust,
>but no one has shown me a single document discussing the bombing of
Dresden.

>Can you, or any of your Pro-Bombing brethren provide me with documents
proving
>that Dresden was bombed? i doubt it.

>Also, Robert Faurisson and Greg Raven both want physical proof of the
Holocuast
>in the form of a working gas chamber. 'Show me or draw me a Nazi Gas
chamber', 
>they say.  Let me follow that example a bit further.

>I've never heard of a 'firebomb'. Show me or draw me a 'firebomb', Kurt.

>Hey, and while i'm on the subject, what about the fact that Dresden was
not
>a viable military target? I can't for a moment believe that the combined
allied
>powers, whose great military skill and efficiency defeated the Nazi
Wehrmacht,
>would ever have wasted their precious bombs on a civilian target like
Dresden.
>There was a war going on, you know.

>I doubt the bombing of Dresden, Kurt, for the above reasons. 

>Prove me wrong.

If you want to disprove Dresden then knock yourself out. If the Dresden
event has blatant contradictions within it than it should be discarded
>from  the History books. (So far you have not presented any such blatant
contradictions).  However, if the Holocaust cannot account for its own
blatant contradictions then it should not be taught as irrefutable History
(that is a Lie) and its deficiencies should be well exposed to the public.


Kurt Stele


>Brian Harmon 
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 20:28:55 PDT 1996
Article: 65935 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: USS Liberty:  Before and After Pictures
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:13:30 -0400
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http://www.halcyon.com/jim/ussliberty/liberty.htm


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 20:28:56 PDT 1996
Article: 65939 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 15 Sep 1996 19:14:37 -0400
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>Kurt Stele wrote:
>> 
>> Brian Harmon  wrote:
>> 
>> >Kurt Stele wrote:
>> >>
>> >> joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <51aqqd$a2g@newsbf02.news.aol.com> kurtstele@aol.com
(Kurt
>> >> Stele) writes:
>> >>
>> >> >>More censorship of revisionism by the "free and fair" media.
>> >>
>> >> >No, it's not censorship, Kurtsie.  The station in question doesn't
>> have
>> >> the
>> >> >obligation to carry Zundel's ravings.
>> >>
>> >> ah yes, the media only carries those views -it- wants and censors
those
>> >> -it- doesn't want.
>> 
>> >Sure, it's called freedom of the press, Kurt. The media has
>> >the right to cover what it chooses, regardless of what the
>> >rest of us think.
>> 
>> holocausters argue the trite point of legality over and over.

>It is not a 'trite point of legality,' Kurt. It's what people mean 
>when they say 'freedom of the press.'

>It means that no one, not a government, a social circle, or even 
>a bunch of crackpot idiots should be influence what is or is not
>presented on their airwaves (or in the case of printed media, on 
>their paper).

but when Mr. Morehead or his masters do so that is OK.   

>> Zundel's nixing debunks the common fallacy that because we have a
>> democratic society and not a dictatorship the press is any more fair.

>Whoa. you jumped the gun there, kiddo.

>Since when does democracy guarantee a _fair_ press?

the people rely on the media to report to them the truth, not mislead them
and conceal the counter-evidence of historical facts.  The media is
peddling the holocaust as an irrefutable historical fact while
deliberately censoring the facts that disprove it.  The media are lying to
the people. 

>Since when does democracy guarantee anything other than public control 
>over what the _government_ (read: not the press) does?

>[whether or not you think democracy exists is another matter..
> i'm talking the intentions of a democratic system more than the
> various forms it may take. ]

>The notion of a _free_ press (different than fair) is not intrinsic 
>to the notion of democracy, although many examples of democratic
government
>to include this idea.

>[some political thinkers may argue differently, that democracy cannot 
> be guaranteed without a free press, but it is not part of democracy
> itself. ]  

>> >If the radio station doesn't want to air Zundel's show, tough
>> >petunias.  They are _not_ bound to display every viewpoint
>> >that is out there.
>> 
>> there are large evidentiary gaps in the most publicized "historical"
event
>> of all time. That is not newsworthy?

>The only people who believe that is you, and a very small bunch of your
pals.

if true what does that prove?  Everyone used to believe the sun revolved
around the earth

>There are, i suspect, more people who believe that John Tesh is an alien.
> 
>> Of course it is.  Revisionism is being censored because if the station
did
>> not they would have a jewish economic boycott against it, like the
Jewish
>> boycott that destroyed the independent newspaper in Cleveland last year
>> for daring to observe Clinton's 2000% disproportionate appointment of
>> Jews.

>Uh huh. ANd the paper was? And who boycotted them?
> 
>> If the Holocaust was evidentiarly sound, the Holocausters would eagerly
>> welcome all skeptics and publicly debunk them, the way the Round
Earthers
>> have done in public debate.  But the Holocauster have not done so, nor
>> will they ever do so, because the Holocausters would get their assed
>> kicked and their frail little Myth would crumble.

>Right, i'm sure the Dresden Memorial would just adore a bunch of people
>calling up every day screaming about what a lie it is, and how Germany
>extorted so much money out of the American people with the Marshall plan,

>and how awfull it is that Germany makes us feel bad for firebombing
Dresden.

You are privileged in that revisionism of Dresden is not censored. If you
found evidence calling Dresden into question they would put you on CNN. 
However, the revisionists are disallowed from even a little A.M radio show
for half an hour (Zundel gets booted off KXEL)

>  
>> >And your anti-semitism rears it's ugly head yet again....
>> 
>> as if the promiscious label "anti-semitism" refutes anything

>Actually, it speaks volumes about you, Kurt.

>Strange that you fail to see that.

an ad hominem label changes nothing of whether the "Holocaust" happened or
not

> 
>> >Horseshit.  The media did not wage an agressive war on
>> >the rest of Europe and North Africa, and did not attempt
>> >to wipe out entire ethnic groups (and with the gypsies,
>> >they nearly succeeded).
>> 
>> The "Extermination" has not been proven, only dogmatized and shielded
from
>> popular scrunity by censorship and punitive laws.

>Yes, yes Kurt, and the moon is made of green cheese.

no the moon is not made of green cheese and there was no extermination by
gassing

>> Note:  you have not refuted or even addressed the point that the media
>> censors like any dictatorship or Nazi regime, but is far worse because
of
>> its hypocritical pretense of allowing "diverse opinions."

>Your failure to grasp reality is not my problem.

>A radio station has the right to choose what they air. _period_.

"Legality" is all you have.  But remember:

kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>If something being legal means it is justified, then the Nazis removing
>Jews from German society was justified.  

A media that disallows counter-evidence to an alleged historical fact is
abusing its power.  The people rely on the media to report the facts
truthfully. That is why the media is given the freedom from government
control, so that they will report the facts to the people without a bias
and truthfully.  We have an abusive lying media, that peddles the
"Holocaust" as historical fact while deliberately censoring inconvenient
facts against it. The media censors no less than Nazis yet is hypocritical
about it. 

Kurt Stele


> 
>Brian Harmon 
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 20:37:14 PDT 1996
Article: 65943 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: USS Liberty: Statement by Radioman R. Sturman
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:09:26 -0400
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Statement by surviving Liberty radioman Richard "Rocky" Sturman:



                             TO COMMAND...

                        In each ship there is one 
                         man who, in the hour of
                      emergency or peril at sea, can
                           turn to no other man.
                        There is one who alone is
                      ultimately responsible for the
                       safe navigation, engineering
                           performance, accurate
                     gunfire and morale of his ship.

                      He is the Commanding Officer.

                             He is the ship!


   Captain William Loren McGonagle, USS LIBERTY AGTR-5, CMH, USN


     In June 1982, fifteen-years after the attack, the survivors who
     could be located reunited for their first time in Washington, D.C.
     During that emotional, soul wrenching, and at times traumatic
     weekend, time and again what was discussed with incredulity was how
     our government, without challenge or dispute, was allowing the
     State of Israel to present their version of the attack to the
     American people as fact.

     One result of that weekend was that the USS LIBERTY VETERANS
     ASSOCIATION came into being so the remaining survivors and former
     crewmen could be located, to pay tribute to our Commanding Officer,
     Captain McGonagle and to our proud ship, USS LIBERTY.  But more
     importantly, we gather to sustain the memory of our 34 friends and
     shipmates who gave their lives in the service of their country.

     Disgracefully, before awarding the Congressional Medal of Honor to
     our Commanding Officer for his heroic deeds our government first
     asked the government of the State of Israel if they had any
     objections.  The Medal of Honor was then presented in a Washington,
     D.C. Naval Shipyard by the Secretary of the Navy.  Hours later,
     then-President Lyndon Johnson awarded similar Medals of Honor at
     the White House with all the pomp and circumstance accorded the
     recipient of our country's highest award for Valor.  Furthermore,
     Captain McGonagle, is the only recipient of the Congressional Medal
     of Honor in United States history who has not been accorded White
     House recognition.

     So not to embarrass the State of Israel for attacking the USS
     Liberty, there is no mention in Captain McGonagle's Medal of Honor
     Citation or in any Citation awarded the USS Liberty and her crew as
     to the identity of the attackers.

"CLAIMS, FACT and COMMENTS" concerns the 2pm, 8 June 1967 attack by the
Israeli Defense Forces of the State of Israeli on our United States Navy
intelligence-gathering ship USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5) , 4th day of the
Arab-Israeli Six-day-war.

By former Radioman 2nd Class (E-5) and survivor:

  Richard Samuel Sturman "Rocky"
  28-50 45th Street.
  Astoria, New York 11103-1212

Home: (718) 728-5241   Fax: (718) 278-6169

I can not emphasize strongly enough that there is not one shred of
evidence or documentation which our government has released, or admitted
to, which would show that the attack was indeed accidental or a case of
mistaken identity.  To this day our governments response to query's
concerning the attack is that "Israel apologized and paid compensation
claiming the attack was accidental and a case of mistaken identity."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

ISRAEL CLAIMED:     The USS LIBERTY had no identification markings or
distinguishing features - whatsoever! FACT:  The two photos of the USS
Liberty were taken during rescue operations and the evacuation of our
dead and wounded - little more than 24 hours after the attack.  They
show our 10 foot high hull number and ship designation on the bow plus
smaller hull and designation on the aft end - to be quite clear and
distinct.

FACT:   On the USS Liberty's main-deck aft (the back end) was an 20 foot
wide, 35 foot high, 10,000 Watt, TRESSCOMM (Technical Research Ship
Special Communications) Microwave antenna.  An antenna futuristic and
odd in 1967 but today seen around the world, in backyards and on
roof-tops was an antenna we call today a SATELLITE DISH.  A Satellite
dish antenna which only the USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5) and sister ship USS
BELMONT (AGTR-4) had in 1967!

COMMENT:  One photo gives the reader a perspective as would be seen by
the Israeli pilots flying over the Liberty.  The other, as would be seen
by the torpedo boat crews during their part in the attack. After
examination of those photos, could the USS LIBERTY have been mistaken
for anything other than what she was "an extremely elaborate
state-of-the-art intelligence gathering platform."  And could that 20
foot wide, 35 foot high mass of steel and hydraulics TRESSCOMM antenna
have possibly been mistaken for a cargo boom to those highly trained
Israeli Air and Naval Forces?  Extreamly improable!  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

ISRAEL CLAIMED:    They requested information from the American Embassy
in Tel Aviv on U.S. ships operating off the Sinai - prior to attacking
the USS LIBERTY.  Also, former Head of Israeli Air Force Intelligence,
General Yeshayeah Bareket, stated: "I personally called the American
Embassy."  

FACT:   This State Department document totally refuting those claims was
declassified and released 09\22\82, states: 

FM AMEMBASSY TEL AVIV
TO SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE
STATE GRNC
BT

C O N F I D E N T I A L TEL AVIV 4178

REF: STATE 211695

"NO REQUEST FOR INFO ON U.S. SHIPS OPERATING OFF SINAI WAS MADE UNTIL
AFTER LIBERTY INCIDENT.  HAD ISRAELIS MADE SUCH AN INQUIRY IT WOULD HAVE
BEEN FORWARDED IMMEDIATELY TO THE CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS AND OTHER
HIGH NAVAL COMMANDS AND REPEATED TO DEPT. BARBOUR."

GP-3

FACT:   The document which generated that "CONFIDENTIAL TEL AVIV 4178"
was declassified and released 10\26\82, states:

ACTION: Amembassy TEL AVIV   IMMEDIATE. 

STATE 211695.  

1. Washington Post JUNE 16 CARRIED FOLLOWING STORY FROM CORRESPONDENT
BASED IN WASHINGTON:  ISRAELI SOURCES SAID THAT WHEN FIGHTING BROKE OUT
IN MIDDLE EAST JUNE 5, ISRAELI GOVT QUERIED US NAVAL ATTACH  IN TEL AVIV
AS TO WHETHER THERE WERE ANY AMERICAN SHIPS OPERATING IN MEDITERRANEAN
OFF SINAI PENINSULA.  ACCORDING STORY ISRAELIS QTE GOT NO RESPONSE
UNQTE.  

2. AS FAR WE AWARE, FIRST ISRAELI QUERY ALONG THESE LINES MADE TO
AMERICAN OFFICIAL WAS THAT REPORTED IN DAO 0825 JUNE 8 WHICH WAS AFTER
ATTACK ON USS LIBERTY.  

3. REQUEST URGENT CONFIRMATION ABOVE AND ANY OTHER COMMENTS. GP-3.

FACT:   A June 1967 letter from then-President Lyndon Johnson to
Congressman Joseph M. McDade (R-Penn), declassified and released  27 Jan
82, stated: "I have seen a report alleging that the Israeli Government
had asked us about the presence of the ship prior to the attack, but
that report is not true."

COMMENT:   Why didn't our Government immediately admonish the Government
of Israel for issuing such a blatantly false statement (Washington Post)
and demand a retraction if they knew it to be false?



FACT:   A TOP SECRET National Military Command Center document,
declassified May 1979 states in paragraph 4: "At 081045 EDT, a message
>from  the United States Defense Attach  Office in Tel Aviv stating that
Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats had erroneously attacked a
vessel in the Mediterranean sea at 080800 EDT, which was thought to be
U.S. Navy ship."

FACT:   Then-American Ambassador to Israel, W. Barbour, was, if nothing
else, a staunch Israeli supporter who spent much of the war in the
Israeli war room and, a declassified cable on file in the LBJ Library
shows that "hours after the incident he (Barbour) reported that Israel
did not intend to admit to the incident."

COMMENT:  The above declassified NMCC document not only lends credence
and support to the declassified cable on file in the LBJ Library, it
dispels any notion and claim Israel immediately notified our government.
Time wise, as Israel is 7 hours ahead of Washington, D.C. time, the
government of Israel did not notify our government until 5:45 PM their
time - 3 hours and 45 minutes after the attack.  Our government then
demanded through diplomatic channels that Israel assume responsibility
for the attack, pay compensation to the families of the dead, the
survivors and for the loss of the USS Liberty.

FACT:       The Government of Israel then for over 13 years nickel,
dimed and procrastinated in the payment of that compensation with the
final payment being made on terms and conditions stipulated by the
government of Israel - not the United States.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:   A 14 Nov. 1986 letter from Congressman Gary Ackerman (NY), to a
constituent:  "However, submarine photography taken during the incident
indicates that the Liberty may have been under siege for approximately
two hours.  Further, it was later discovered that the Israelis had
warned the U.S. to keep all intelligence ships away from their coast
during the war.  In fact, after the arrival of the Liberty, the Israelis
warned Washington to order the ship to leave the area." 

COMMENT:   The admission by Congressman Ackerman of a submarine
following the USS Liberty and photographing the attack, was not the only
such report.  James Ennes, Jr., author of "Assault on the Liberty" and
survivor, documents that fact in his book.  Survivor, Joseph Lentini,
while in the hospital recovering from his wounds was approached by a
crew member of that submarine, who stated to him "we took pictures of
the attack through our periscope."   Who was that submarine?  What was
it doing there?  Why didn't the Commanding Officer of that submarine
turn those photos over to our government?  If he did in fact do so, why
does our government refuse to acknowledge the presence of that
submarine?  The only known fact about the submarine is that it was
equipped for the insertion and recovery of frogmen.  Interesting!  WHY
frogman?  What purpose would an American submarine serve, along with its
frogmen following the USS Liberty and off the Gaza strip?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:  Information provided by the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency)
during a TOP SECRET closed door investigations committee hearing
disclosed that the 1967 government of Israel informed the United States
24 hours prior to the attack  "get that ship out of there - or we will
attack it." ISRAEL CLAIMED:  That the town of El-Arish was being shelled
>from  the sea for hours-on-end as another reason for the attack.

FACT:   On the morning of 8 June, the airfield at El-Arish was already
functioning as an advanced Israeli air base.  As a matter of fact,
Israel's hold on El-Arish was so complete a flight of Egyptian fighter
aircraft landed at its airfield, deplaned, then walked right into
Israeli Defense Forces arms and were captured without a shot or
struggle.  

COMMENT:  Israel recanted the claim of bombardment after the LVA (USS
Liberty Veterans Association) proved it to be false.  As all Israeli
claims have been proven to be false.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

ISRAEL CLAIMED:   They "mistook" the USS LIBERTY for the Egyptian - El
Quseir.

FACT:   The El Quseir at 275 feet, was 180 feet (1/3rd) shorter than the
USS Liberty's 455 foot length.  Additionally, the El Quseir at 2,640
gross tons, was 8,040 tons (4/5ths) less than the USS Liberty's 10,680
gross tonnage.  Plus, the El Quseir was 20 feet narrower than USS
Liberty's 62 foot beam (width).

FACT:   Research into the El Quseir "mistake" claim proved the El Quseir
was not only tied to a pier in Alexandria, Egypt, the entire Six-day-war
- it was unable to move. That was confirmed in late 1976 by Major
General, Mohamed A. Abou Ghazald, of Egypt.  And, it has also been shown
our CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) knew the El-Quseir was in
Alexandria, Egypt, at the time of the attack (The USS LIBERTY:
DISSENTING HISTORY VS OFFICIAL HISTORY, By Doctor John E. Borne, Ph.D,
Reconsideration Press, 1995). Though it has been proven the El-Quseir
was in Egypt at the time of the attack, I have included a photo of the
El-Quseir from the July 7, 1967 issue of Time Magazine, pg.15.  I
believe the reader will see that the only similarity between our two
ships is that, we are both in the water.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

ISRAEL CLAIMED:   "The USS LIBERTY was moving at 28 knots," and their
battle doctrine dictated "any vessel moving over 20 knots was a
legitimate target."  

FACT:   The USS Liberty could not move at 28 knots, having a maximum
speed of 18 knots and cruising at the time of the attack at 5 knots.
The El Quseir could not move at 28 knots either, having a maximum speed
of 14 knots - 4 knots slower than the USS Liberty.

COMMENT:   A legitimate target even though in International waters?  How
absurd!  There is no precedent in International law which would condone
or justify such a statement, or action.  If the USS Liberty could not
move at 28 knots and, the El Quseir was tied to a pier in Alexandria,
Egypt, at the time of the attack - I let you draw your own conclusion!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

FACT:   Israeli Intelligence having done their homework prior to the
outbreak of hostilities admitted: "knew the exact locations of all
opposition forces and equipment - military and civilian."   

PRELUDE TO THE ATTACK:  In all, there were 13 over-flights of the USS
LIBERTY on 8 June 1967.  8 of those over-fights were low-level
reconnaissance with Israeli jets and reconnaissance planes - passing as
low as 200 feet above the USS Liberty's main-mast.  Our personnel were
not only able to distinguish the features of the pilots, they waved at
them - which they returned.  The USS LIBERTY was positively identified
by the Israeli pilots who reported that fact to their headquarters in
Tel Aviv, where we was designated and marked on the Israeli war-room
plot-board as a "Neutral American Vessel."  

ISRAEL CLAIMED:  They removed the USS Liberty's marker "because the data
was old." 

FACT:   The last reconnaissance over-flight - was 1 hour prior to the
attack! 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:  Two Israeli pilots, commencing their strafing-run, reported to
their headquarters that the USS LIBERTY was an American ship. They were
ordered to attack nonetheless!   Those two pilots, refusing to attack,
returned to their base, were arrested, court marshaled and given harsh
jail sentences.

COMMENT:    Research into this aspect disclosed one of the pilots was so
badly brutalized while incarcerated, he may never be released from the
facility he is being detained in.  The fate of the other pilot is
unknown!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:  An American intelligence intercept station in Germany over-heard
the Israeli pilots conversations, as did the USS Liberty's
Communications Technicians who turned over their tapes and transcripts
of those conversations to Rear Admiral Isaac Kidd who was in charge of
the investigation aboard the USS Liberty.  Also, then-American
Ambassador to Lebanon, Dwight Porter, came forward in 1991 and stated
"U.S. Embassy monitors in Lebanon over-heard the radio conversations
between the Israeli pilots and their headquarters as well."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE ATTACK:  The attack lasted a total of slightly over 2 hours, not the
5 minutes as reported by our government.  Additionally, our government
reported only 1 torpedo being launched and striking the USS LIBERTY. 

FACT:   In all, there were 5 torpedoes launched.  1 torpedo struck to
blast a 40 X 42 foot tear-drop shaped hole in the research and intercept
compartments below the water-line, killing 25 of our 34 total dead. 171
of the Liberty's 294 man complement were wounded (almost 70% of our
complement - dead or wounded).  There were over 821 rocket, cannon and
machine-gun hits inflicted. Napalm was used. All above deck water-tight
hatches (doors), destroyed or damaged. All antennas, destroyed. The
Captain's-gig (wood boat), rendered totally inoperable. The crew's
motor-launch (wood boat), totally destroyed.  All the Liberty's rubber
life-rafts, except 3 - destroyed. Those 3 remaining life-rafts were put
in the water in response to "prepare to abandon ship," were
intentionally machine-gunned at close range by an Israeli torpedo boat
crew. An action on their part which was, and still is, a violation of
the Geneva Convention II for the Amelioration of the Conditions of
Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked members of the Armed Forces at Sea of 1949
(1991 edition, volume 64,  INTERNATIONAL LAW STUDIES, THE LAW OF NAVAL
OPERATIONS. published by the Naval War College, Newport, Rhode Island,
article titled "NAVAL TARGETING: LAWFUL OBJECTS FOR ATTACK" By Sally V.
and William T. Mallison).  One of the torpedo boats then took aboard
their craft our now useless life-rafts depriving us of any means or
chance of survival had the USS Liberty sank to the bottom of the
international Mediterranean waters we were lawfully operating in.  As to
the attack on the USS Liberty itself, it has been shown that under
international law - Israel had absolutely no right in attacking a
non-beligerent vessel in international waters (Naval Law Review, Winter
1986, Vol. 36. "A JURIDICAL EXAMINATION OF THE ISRAELI ATTACK ON THE
U.S.S. LIBERTY"  LT.CMD. Walter L. Jacobsen, JAGC, USN).

COMMENT: Could the infliction of the amount of damage and destruction
done to the USS LIBERTY have been just pure luck?  Or, putting those
reconnaissance over-flights to good use as to what and where to hit so
as to insure the Israeli Air and Naval forces could inflict the most
possible damage, and hopefully, sink the USS LIBERTY?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:  The USS Liberty's OPERATIONAL RADIO FREQUENCIES along with the
INTERNATIONAL DISTRESS FREQUENCY were radio-jammed to prevent our
Radiomen and Communications Technicians from sending a distress call for
help.

COMMENT:    How would the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) know what range
of frequencies to initiate their radio-jamming on if they had not been
using, prior to attacking, sophisticated RDF (Radio-Direction-Finding)
equipment to scan for and locate our encrypted and unencrypted radio
transmissions.  A procedure, considering the equipment of that era, took
quite some time.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:        In Israeli supplied gun-camera footage of the strafing on
the USS LIBERTY for a Thames Television Production, subsequently shown
on 20/20's "Story behind the Story" and "Now it can be told" has their
pilots saying:  "YOU HIT HER - YOU HIT HER GOOD" and "THERE'S OIL COMING
OUT OF HER" 

FACT:   The only way those Israeli  pilots could have seen oil coming
>from  the USS LIBERTY would have been AFTER the torpedo was put into our
starboard (right) side, rupturing our fuel oil tanks.

FACT:   The Government of Israel in their account of the attack, stated:
"their pilots departed the area before the torpedo boats arrived to
commence their run-in and attack."

FACT:  Observation of that Israeli supplied gun-camera footage reveals
it to have been reversed from a POSITIVE image to a NEGATIVE image
almost totally devoid of detail. And a negative image DOCTORED by the
placing of a rectangular mask over the USS Liberty's 10 foot high hull
number and designation on the bow in order to give the impression and
coincide with Israel's claim that there were no identification markings
whatsoever.  But to those familiar with the USS Liberty, detail, even in
that doctored piece of celluloid can be discerned. Especially when
knowing where and what to look for.

COMMENT:  It is interesting to note that in the beginning of the Thames
documentary gun-camera footage of Israeli jets strafing opposition air
bases are clear, distinct and of  a positive image.  If  a doubt remains
whether the footage has been doctored, I have reversed the image of the
USS Liberty with the helicopter hovering over our forecastle.  Also, it
should be noted that the commentary by the pilots during the strafing at
the beginning of the gun-camera segment, states: "...a recreation of the
pilots words..." To say the least, very self -serving.   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

FACT:  Mr. Michael Shiloh, Deputy Ambassador to Israel, Washington,
D.C.,  in an attempt to placate insinuated that the attack was a result
of   "FRIENDLY FIRE".

COMMENT:  We could understand and forgive a friendly fire attack had it
occurred during the dead-of-night and even in a jungle or desert
scenario where men and equipment are camouflaged for protection.  But
the attack occurred at 2pm., after 13 over-flights, on a day totally
devoid of cloud and while we were 13 1/2 miles out in international
waters.  And, as it was brought forth during the Naval Board of Inquiry:
"the USS LIBERTY was the only non-Israeli ship in the area."  

"Friendly Fire"  - I THINK NOT!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

FACT:   General Yeshayuah Bareket, former head of Israeli Air Force
Intelligence, along with his aforementioned statement during the Thames
documentary, stated:  "...the ship is an obstacle or is disturbing our
operations in the area"

COMMENT: I need not really comment, that statement by General Bareket
says it all.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:   Why has the Government of Israel been allowed to cast the
aspersion that our United States Government was at fault for, and
responsible for, the attack on the USS LIBERTY?  

FACT:   An aspersion which has NEVER been addressed, answered to, or
challenged by our government!  And why are the some 6000 odd-pages of
documents concerning the attack being suppressed by our Government, and
the media?  Suppressed, while documents and photos of investigations
Congress sees fit to convene and the media deem appropriate to air are
plastered across our tabloid headlines and shown for hours on end at
top-of-the-hour news programs.





While Israel and Israel's supporters in the United States consistently
make reference to and claim "the attack was accidental," "It was a case
of mistaken identity," "Israel claimed responsibility and paid
compensation," plus then-Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara's,
comment "It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an
Admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack
was not intentional." 

Those statements and claims do not accurately reflect the statements
made at the time by other members of our Government.

FACT:   The Navy Board of Inquiry: "the Navy inquiry confirms testimony
of five member of the crew that they had personally observed the
(American Flag) was hoisted.  Hull markings were clear and freshly
painted."  The Judge Advocate General of the Navy concluded that: "The
record discloses beyond any doubt that USS Liberty was, at the time of
the attack, engaged in peaceful operations in international waters, and
that the attack of Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats was entirely
unprovoked and unexpected."  The attack took place on a clear day, and
the Liberty was the only non-Israeli vessel in sight.  PLUS: Then
Secretary of State Dean Rusk: "There is every reason to believe that the
USS LIBERTY was identified, or at least her nationality determined by
Israeli aircraft one hour before the attack," "I was never satisfied
with the Israeli explanations.  Their sustained attack to disable and
sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident..." as do Rusk's legal
advisor Carl Salans a nd his assistant secretary Lucius Battle.  Clark
Clifford, chairman of the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board is on
record having told then President Lyndon Johnson in a closed National
Security Council meeting that "the attack was deliberate..."  Gen.
Marshall Carter, Director of the National Security Agency and his deputy
Louis Tordella, agree that "the attack was deliberate," so does their
senior aide Walter G. Deeley.  Richard Helms, Chief of the Central
Intelligence Agency and his former deputy George Carver are also on
record as saying "the attack was intentional," as are Admiral Bobby
Inmann, who headed both intelligence agencies; Dr. James Johnson, former
undersecretary of the Navy, Gen. George Keegan, former Air Force Chief
of Intelligence, Paul Warnke, then senior National Security Advisor to
the Secretary of Defense. Former Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm.
Thomas Moorer "insists that the attack could not possibly have been a
mistake."  And even Ronald Reagan once cited t he Liberty to his staff,
as an example of Israeli untrustworthiness.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:    Mr. George Christian, special assistant to then-President
Johnson, in a letter to Mr. James Ennes, Jr., (author, "Assault on the
Liberty" and Survivor): "Frankly, there was considerable skepticism in
the White House that the attack was accidental..." Plus, "....I became
convinced that an accident of this magnitude was too much to swallow."
And, "It was imperative that the United States maintain enough leverage
with Israel to bring about a cease-fire."

COMMENT:  Is the attack on the USS LIBERTY still being used today as a
lever by our Government, as Mr. Christian stated above?  If that is in
fact so, then we are surly being used as a pawn in the game of
international politics.  Or, is it the well documented fear of reprisal
along with the loss of political contributions by Israel's lobby in the
United States?

FACT:  Israel's claims were so outrageous and unbelievable, they
requested our government classify them and not released to the American
people or our media.  They also stipulated that, "if need be, their
account of the attack could be released only to select members of
Congress."   

COMMENT:   Who, their supporters !

---------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:   The documents that have not been released which are still being
held by our intelligence agencies, along with the White House and State
Department are classified so highly Members of Congress and our
government are refused access to them.         

COMMENT:    What is there still to hide after 28 years? 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

FACT:    Article 1, Section 8 (10th paragraph in) of the Constitution of
the United States of America, states:  to define and punish Piracies and
Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of
Nations.  

COMMENT:  Why, then, does our government violate our Constitution and
refuse to abide by our laws by not investigating the attack?  In
essence, has, since 1967 protected and put the interests and welfare of
the State of Israel before America and Americans.   

But unlike the Main, the Mayagues, Pearl Harbor, Tonkin Gulf, The
Scorpion, The Thresher, The 1968 attack and seizure of the USS Pueblo by
North Korea (seven months after the USS LIBERTY was attacked), The 1987
cruise missile attack on the USS Stark by Iraq (members of Congress went
to and stayed in Iraq to complete their 8 month investigation of that
incident), The USS Iowa gun-turret explosion, The shooting-down by the
USS Vincennes of a Iranian civilian passenger jet  The accidental
launching of 2 missiles by the USS Saratoga into a Turkish ship killing
5 of their crew during a joint NATO exercises, Watergate, Iran Contra,
Iraq-gate, Tail Hook, White Water, the nuclear experiments on Americans
in the early 1950's, The USS Mason along with the myriad of incidents
Congress did and does see fit to investigate - the attack on the USS
LIBERTY (AGTR-5) by the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) stands to this day
as the only major Maritime Naval disaster in United States history which
has not be en accorded a FULL, COMPREHENSIVE and IMPARTIAL investigation
by Congress.


                        ===========================


Before closing CLAIMS, FACT and COMMENTS I would like to add that
Americans (those of the Jewish faith and Gentile alike) who support the
State of Israel have denounced the USS LIBERTY VETERANS ASSOCIATION, the
survivors, the families of our dead and our supporters of being
transmogrified into an Anti-Israel, Anti-Semitic cult.  They have also
voiced that: "any memorial to the USS Liberty or her dead is a slap in
the face and an insult to the State of Israel."    

Though the supporters of Israel denounce us as Anti-Semitic, how could
we be!  For those that are ill- or misinformed, we had shipmates and
friends killed in the attack who were of the Jewish faith.  And many of
us, the survivors, the families of our dead and our supporters are of
the Jewish faith. 

And why is offense taken by those that su


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 20:50:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65944 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer The White Courtesy Phone, Part II
Date: 15 Sep 1996 22:54:41 -0400
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:

>: If you want to disprove Dresden then knock yourself out. If the Dresden
>: event has blatant contradictions within it than it should be discarded
>: from the History books. (So far you have not presented any such blatant
>: contradictions).  However, if the Holocaust cannot account for its own
>: blatant contradictions then it should not be taught as irrefutable
History
>: (that is a Lie) and its deficiencies should be well exposed to the
public.

>Well, then, go for it, Kurt.  So far, all we've had from you is the
>same old blatant nonsense about the Auschwitz numbers and few stories
>you find ridiculous.  If you can expose any deficiencies, then do so.

>We're waiting.

Explain the "Holocaust" discrepancies as to crematory rates, Bill.  

The fact is, there is counter-evidence to the "Holocaust" and the media is
suppressing it.  This is wrong, as the people should of this fact.  

Kurt Stele

>Bill


From kurtstele@aol.com Sun Sep 15 20:50:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65946 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: USS Liberty:  A Deliberate Butchery (continued)
Date: 15 Sep 1996 22:03:07 -0400
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   Israel claimed that the 10,000 ton, 459-foot

LIBERTY was mistaken for the ancient Egyptian

troopship EL QUSEIR of 2,640 tons, 275 feet long,

and which had a radically different deck plan and

silhouette. Indeed, it is likely that the Israelis

just picked out the Egyptian ship which most

resembled the LIBERTY, even though this was a

remarkable exercise in imagination. And the

Israelis attempted to make much out of the

allegation that the LIBERTY was not flying a flag,

which was nonsense--until the Super-Nysteres shot

it away.



   Most knowledgeable persons wondered how the

unmistakable silhouette of the ubiquitous Victory

ship, not to mention the LIBERTY'S unusual antenna

arrays, did not make for immediate recognition.12

These elementary factors led some American news

media to speculate immediately tha the attack may

have been deliberate.13 The U.S. government

accepted Israel's apology. The Israeli explanation

was rejected. On 27 May 1968, Israel paid

$3,325,500 in compensation to the next of kin of

the 34 men killed.14



   Two weeks later, in a muted ceremony in the

Washington Navy Yard, Secretary of the Navy Paul

Ignatius decorated Captain William L. McGonagle

(promoted since the attack) with the Medal of

Honor.15 By then, Captain McGonagle was

prospective commanding officer of the new

ammunition ship KILAUEA (AE-26) which was on the

eve of her commissioning. And a few days later in

Norfolk, the Silver Star was awarded to Lieutenant

Maurice H. Bennett, who had taken over as the

ship's communications officer and labored below

decks during the attack, and to Ensign David G/

Lucas who had functioned as executive officer,

operations officer, officer of the deck,

quartermaster of the watch, lookout, messenger,

and hospital corpsman during the attack.



   Engineering personnel are often overlooked when

decorations are awarded, but not on board the

LIBERTY. The Silver Star was awarded to Lieutenant

George Golden and to Chief Machinist's Mate

Richard J. Brooks, the latter being in charge of

the engineering watch during the action. In spite

of dreadful circumstances in the machinery spaces,

these men kept the "heart of the ship" in working

order, and thus held the LIBERTY'S survival in the

realm of possibility.



   Lieutenant Richard F. Kiepfer, the medical

officer, was also awarded the Silver Star. The

fact that 170 Purple Hearts were awarded among the

LIBERTY'S complement provides an idea of the

problems faced by Dr. Kiepfer and his two

corpsmen. Other decorations were awarded, two of

them posthumously. Capyain McGonagle himself

traveled to Cedar Rapids, Iowa to present the

Bronze Star to Virgil L. Brownsfield, who had been

his telephone talker on the bridge during the

attacks.15 As for the LIBERTY, her only unusual

aspect was the extraordinary communications

equipment in her Number 3 hold, most of which was

especially manufactured for her mission. And it

was destroyed by the Israeli torpedo. The LIBERTY

could not be economically repaired, and on 28 June

1968 she was decommissioned. The officer who

closed out her log was David Lucas. In December

1970, the Navy turned the LIBERTY over to the

Maritime Administration, and she was sold to a

ship-breaker for $101,666.66. Towed away to

Baltimore's Curtiss Bay, she was finally reduced

to scrap in 1973.



   In the meantime, on 28 April 1969, 22 months

after the attack, Israel paid $3,556,457 in

compensation to those men who were wounded.16 This

was obtained only after the claimants retained

private legal counsel, the latter taking a

substantial part of the award. Although the United

States submitted a claim of $7,644,146 for the

material damage inflicted upon the LIBERTY, the

government of Israel has refused to pay it.



   The whole Israeli attitude toward the LIBERTY

incident has been singularly callous. Americans in

Israel at the time of the attack remarked with

some surprise that no Israelis oftheir regular

acquaintance saw fit to offer their personal

regrets about the unfortunate attack upon the

LIBERTY, even by way of off-hand conversation.17

These Israeli attitudes make an interesting

contrast to the only comparable incident which has

occurred within recent years, the attack upon the

USS PANAY (PR-5) 30 years earlier.



   On 13 December 1937, the gunboat PANAY was

strafed, bombed and sunk in the Yangtze River by

Japanese dive-bombers during the initial weeks of

the confused "China Incident" which four years

later became an aspect of World War II. Three men,

including one civilian, were killed; a dozen were

seriously wounded. Many individul Japanese called

upon the U.S. Embassy in Tokyo to express their

personal regrets; many others telephoned. Japanese

schools took up collections for the survivors and

next of kin. The admiral in charge of operations

in China and the air officer who commanded the

squadrons that took part in the attack were

relieved of their commands. And Japan remitted its

monetary compensation on 22 April 1938, less than

five months after the incident."18



   If there is a timeless lesson to be relearned

>from  the savage violation of the LIBERTY it is

that nations do not have "friends." They have only

interests. An elementary lecture on this subject

was given by George Washington in his farewell

address. His words are every bit as as valid today

as they were in 1796, and perhaps a bit more so.

They deserve the review of every American of every

American and the special attention of officers

serving with the Sixth Fleet.19 In any given set

of circumstances nations are guided to action by

what they perceive to best serve their own

interests. They do not act in terms of the

dreadfully oversimplified caricatures with which

Americans and their news media like to personalize

and sentimentalize the iron politics among

nations.



   Whatever euphoric sentiments may seem to be at

large in the farrago of foreign relations, the

frim fact remains that there is such a thing as

RAISON D'ETAT. In a clutch, nations act upon it.

Its execution usually leaves hurt feelings. On

occasion, it spills blood.



----------------------------------------------



Dr. Smith spent more than 12 years (including two

as a Naval Reserve officer) at sea as a marine

engineer. He holds bachelor of science and master

of arts degrees from the University of Illinois at

Urbana and a Ph.D. in history from the University

of Chicago. He is the author of THE AIRSHIPS AKRON

AND MACON: FLYING AIRCRAFT CARRIERS OF THE U.S.

NAVY and the prize-winning FIRST ACROSS! THE U.S.

NAVY'S TRANSATLANTIC FLIGHT OF 1919, both Naval

Institute books.



>



[1 Except as noted, all data herein are taken from

the LIBERTY'S COURT of inquiry, the testimony,

appendices, and exhibits of which run to 600-some

pages, and the deck logs of the LIBERTY, AMERICA

(CVA-66), SARATOGA (CVA-60, LITTLE ROCK (CLG-4),

DAVIS DD-937), MASSEY (DD-778), and PAPAGO

(ATF-160).]



[2 See J.A. Culver, "A Time for Victories," UNITED

STATES NAVAL INSTITUTE PROCEEDINGS. February 1977,

pp. 50-56, and especially the extended comment by

H.L. Holthaus, September 1977, pp. 87-89.]



[3 Raymond V.B. Blackman, editor, JANE'S FIGHTING

SHIPS: 1965-66 (Great Missenden, Bucks., England:

Sampson Low, Marston & Co., Ltd., 1965), p. 394.]



[4 Zeev Schiff, A HISTORY OF THE ISRAELI ARMY (New

York: Simon & Schuster, 1974), pp. 159-160.]



[5 "Blasted Arab MIG's Clutter Base in Sinai,"

AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY, 14 August 1967,

pp. 92-93.]



[6 Except as noted, all times cited herein are

Bravo, i.e. local time off El Arish.]



[7 "Noratlases Flew Patrol, Supply Missions,"

AVIATION WEEK 7 SPACE TECHNOLOGY, 17 July 1967,

pp. 89-91, 93, 96.]



[8 Australia and Chile are two nations whose

navies use systems virtually identical to that of

the U>S> Navy, including large block numerals on

both bow and stern. It was, however, unlikely that

any Australian or Chilean warships would be in the

Mediterranean that day.]



[9 The American news media subsequently made much

about messages to the LIBERTY  being "misrouted,"

etc., but these accounts are terribly garbled and

produce a substantial perversion of the truth.

Given the time frame in which everything occurred,

there is no way in which the "move off" message

could have reached the LIBERTY before the attack

except by way of high precedence "flash," but

there was no reason to use that precedence until

after 1403 Brava.]



[10 One of the most remarkable aspects of the

Israelis "error" is that they jammed U.S. Navy

communications frequencies, then claimed they were

attacking an Egyptian ship.]



[11 Micha Limor, "Israeli Navy Man Describes

Attack on the Liberty," The New York Times, 7July

1967, p.3].



[12 For editorial comment, see "Death on the

Liberty," THE NEW YORK TIMES, 10 June 1967, p.

32.]



[13 "Sinking the LIBERTY: Accident or Design?"

NEWSWEEK, 19 June 1967, p.21.]



[14 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE BULLETIN, 2June 1969,

p. 473.]



[15 "Honor Medal Awarded To Skipper of LIBERTY,"

    NAVY TIMES, 26 June 1968, p.2] ["Hero Travels

    To Give Medal," NAVY TIMES, 21 July 1968, p.

    2]



[16 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STAE BULLETIN, 2 June 1969,

p. 473.]



[17 "Damage to Ship Described," THE EVENING STAR

(Washington), 16 June 1967, p. A-3.]



[18 Hamilton Darby Perry, THE PANAY INCIDENT:

PRELUDE TO PEARL HARBOR (New York: Macmillan,,

1969), pp. 195-196, 220-222, 233.]



[19 Reprinted in Henry Steele Commager, editor,

DOCUMENTS OF AMERICAN HISTORY, 6th edition (New

York: Appleton, Century, Crofts, 1958), pp.

169-175.]



----------------------------------------------- >

Map of LIBERTY'S locations during the attack

accompanied text.



Photo caption 1: JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS



Photo caption 2: After the attack on the LIBERTY,

above, the Israelis claimed they istakenly thought

their target was the Egyptian El Quseir, a much

smaller, much older Egyptian vessel, shown at left

in a photo taken when she was a transport called

El Amira Fawzia.



Photo caption 3: The battered LIBERTY limps into

Valetta, Malta, on 14 June 1967 for temporary

repairs following the attack. At the waterline is

the hole caused by a torpedo from an Israeli boat.

Her hull and superstructure are pockmarked with

holes from air attacks.



Photo caption 4: Captain William McGonagle,

commanding officer of the LIBERTY, points out some

of the torpedo damage caused by the Israeli air

strike on his ship. Inset: Following promotion to

captain. McGonagle was awarded the Medal of Honor

in 1968.



         ____________END_________



From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep 16 06:11:01 PDT 1996
Article: 65951 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele:  is he George J. Lehmann's illegitimate son?
Date: 15 Sep 1996 18:38:12 -0400
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In message  - joelr@winternet.com
(Joel
>Rosenberg)Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:53:21 writes:

>[deleted]

>:>As to the Guardians books, Kurt should have read a bit closer.  The
hero of 
>:>the series isn't Karl Cullinane (who, by the way, has been dead for the
last 
>:>several books) -- it's the balding, not particularly heroic engineer,
Lou 
>:>Riccetti.   

>Ah Joel, I'm confused.  Kurt sais that you had stolen Norse legends and
>interposed Yiddish names or something like that.  Now, with all due
respect,
>you blew it.  Riccetti doesn't sound too Yiddish to me.  Do you suppose
Kurt
>could have l i e d??


>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time

Have you ever heard of one of Joel's literary creations, the great
medieval swordsman "Ian Silverstein"?

(trying to hold back laughter)

BWAHAHAHHAHAHA

Kurt Stele




From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep 16 06:11:02 PDT 1996
Article: 65961 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NOMINATION: Tom Moran for KOTM
Date: 15 Sep 1996 18:34:42 -0400
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:
>: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Tommy's "Desert Ostrich" crap deleted.

>: >Nobody on a.r. has been able to determine what this has to do with
>: >the Holocaust or revisionism; perhaps the denizens of a.u.k. can
>: >help.  Meanwhile, I invite other a.r. regulars to post your favorite
>: >Moranisms in support of this nomination.  Support our boy!
>: 
>: I find it relevant.  

>That doesn't count, Kurt.  You also believe that JOOS are controlling
>your life.  What we need, see, is somebody who finds it relevant and
>yet isn't a flake.

Jews dominate the media, which consequently gives them great influence
into nearly every sphere of society.  

Oh, and views Jews don't like get censored. 

But this is pretty elementary stuff, Bill.

Kurt Stele

>Bill


From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep 16 06:11:03 PDT 1996
Article: 65966 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GIWER: A true "revisionist"
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:55:59 -0400
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, 13 Sep 1996 23:38:10 -0700, Brian Harmon
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> >Kurt Stele wrote:

>> >> Oh yeah.  Those "gas chambers" they built -after- the war, after the
>> >> existing structures were ruined, and the Soviets refused to allow
>> >> journalists to see them.  Nice bit of craftwork.
>> 
>> >Funny thing is, we have several nazis and eyewitnesses talking
>> >at length about the use of these buildings as gas chambers,
>> >but not a single soviet coming forward and saying, "ahh yes,
>> >we built those after the war..."
>> 
>> >Interesting theory, a pity there's no evidence for it.
>> 
>>         Actually, not one "description" matches the buildings that are
claimed
>> to have been the ones that were gas chambers.  We have been over this.
>> 

>This from a proven liar and troller, who sits on this group
>seven days a week just to start fights.

>But don't take my word for it folks, please take a peek at:

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies

>  FOr a long list of his bullshit, 

>And to read about his net-abuse:

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse

>Read it folks, it's a gas.

>Brian Harmon
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu

after he refutes you, you resort to the above claptrap?    

The lurker who reads the exchange can see Matt goes unrefuted and the
holocausters replies with ad hominem.

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep 16 06:11:03 PDT 1996
Article: 65979 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer the White Courtesty Phone, Part III
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:49:29 -0400
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Please answer the White

libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:
>: Brian Harmon  wrote:

>: >'Allowed to discredit or deny the Civil War or Dresden?'
>: 
>: >Do you honestly think if i sailed into a university and
>: >proclaimed that these events did not happen, i'd be 
>: >treated with anything other than derision and disrespect?
>: 
>: You wouldn't be treated with derision and disrespect at all if you had
>: counter-evidence against the Civil War. 

>And you wouldn't be treated with derision and disrepect if you
>had counter-evidence against the Holocaust.

>But you don't.  All you have is the rankest, silliest sort of
>good old-fashioned antisemitic conspiracy nonsense.

If what you are saying is true, that revisionism is such patently silly
nonsense, then why is it banned in Germany?  Surely if it was so silly,
there would be little need to fear anything.  The Geocentric Theory of the
Universe is not banned.  A "democratic" (sic) government does not ban the
expression of thoughts that are merely "silly." 

A theory, which if true, would render a hoax the most-controversial
"event" in history, is far from silly.  If it was so silly it could be
dismissed with a fraction of the bandwidth taken up by alt.revisionism. 
"Silly" theories do not unfold along a pattern of increasing and
unresolved controversy. That is why Germany banned it, not because it is
silly but because it is dangerous to the "Holocaust."  

Kurt Stele

>Bill


From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep 16 06:11:04 PDT 1996
Article: 66005 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: USS Liberty Survivors:  Denied Congressional Hearing
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:13:33 -0400
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The U.S. Government so far has refused to deny the survivors of the USS
Liberty a Congressional Hearing, which they have pleaded for 29 years

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep 16 06:11:05 PDT 1996
Article: 66009 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: USS Liberty: Israelis Deliberately Butcher Americans
Date: 15 Sep 1996 20:58:02 -0400
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THE VIOLATION OF THE "LIBERTY" BY RICHARD K. SMITH

 

   The savage Israeli attack on the U.S.

intelligence ship LIBERTY in 1967 was described at

the time as an "accident. A detailed account

suggests it was anything but accidental.



--------------------------------------------------



   At 1403 on Thursday, 8 June 1967, the U.S.

electronics intelligence ship LIBERTY (AGTR-5) was

steaming at a leisurely five knots, 14 miles

offshore from the Eguptian town of El Arish on the

Mediterranean coast of Sinai, when she was

attacked by Israeli fighter-bombers. The attack

continued for seven minutes, leaving eight of the

ship's crew dead or dying, more than 100 wounded,

and the ship riddled and burning.



   Fourteen minutes later, the LIBERTY was

attacked by three Israeli torpedo boats which

raked the ship with gunfire--killing another four

men--and then launched torpedoes. One torpedo hit

a communications compartment, multiplying the

LIBERTY'S dead to a total of 34. Within 30 minutes

of the torpedo attack, two helicopters carrying

armed troops appeared alongside, and two jet

fighters loitered in the sky astern as if poised

for strikes. As suddenly as it had started,

everything stopped. Israel said it was a

"mistake." Thus ended the Navy's bloodiest

peacetime international incident of the 20th

century.1



   The LIBERTY was one of eight merchant-type

ships which were modified between 1960 and 1966 to

perform electronic intelligence missions.2 Built

in 1945 as the SS SIMMONS VICTORY, she was in

mothballs off and on from 1948-1963 before being

converted to naval service. She was commissioned

30 December 1964 at the Puget Sound Naval

Shipyard, then proceeded the following spring to

her new home port, Norfolk, Virginia. Though

nominally under Service Squadron Eight, her

operations were in fact directly controlled by the

Joint Reconnaissance Command, part of the Joint

Chiefs of Staff organization.



   Classified as a "technical research ship," the

world understood her mission as "research in

communications and electromagnetic radiation."3

This was a marvelous oversimplification of a vast

spectrum of passive capabilities. The ship was

usually manned by  20 officers and 300 enlisted

men; about 100 of the latter were communications

technicians. In the summer of 1966, the LIBERTY

initiated a series of cruises along the west coast

of Africa between Dakar and Capetown, showing the

flag, making goodwill visits, and presumably

studying the airways en route. On 1 May 1967, the

LIBERTY took departure from Cape Henry under the

command of Commander William L. McGonagle with 19

officers and 295 men on board. This was her fourth

cruise to Africa.



   Meanwhile, years of poison in the Middle East

heated up to a new boil. In May, Egypt evicted a

United Nations peacekeeping force (which had been

watching the Egyptian-Israeli border since 1957)

and began an ominous military buildup in the Sinai

peninsula. Israel refused to accept the UN force

on its side of the frontier and gave indications

of preparing for a preventive war. The Eastern

Mediterranean suddenly became a logical place to

deploy a ship of the LIBERTY'S unusual

capabilities.



   At 0345 on 24 May, the LIBERTY was in the port

of Abidjan, Ivory Coast, when she received orders

to get under way immediately to Rota, Spain,

whence she was to proceed to the vicinity of Port

Said, Egypt. The rest of her African cruise was

cancelled. On the morning of 1 June, the LIBERTY

moored in Rota and took on 380,000 gallons of

fuel, miscellaneous stores, and some vitally need

spare parts for her TRSSCOMS. The TRSSCOMS

(technical research ship special communications

system) was a radio device, experimental and quite

exotic in 1967, which could transmit messages from

most of the distant areas of the world to the

United States by bouncing its signals off the

moon. Otherwise, the ship's data collections had

to be sent via select relay stations ashore, a

process which consumed many hours instead of a few

minutes.



   Within six hours of her arrival, the LIBERTY

was ready to sail but was held at Rota until three

civilian technicians from the National Security

Agency could be flown in from the United States.

When they were finally on board, she got under way

on the afternoon of 2 June and during the next

five days her best speed (17 knots) for the

Eastern Mediterranean. While the LIBERTY was

steaming off the south coast of Sicily on the

morning of 5 June, Israel launched preemptive air

strikes against the air forces of Egypt, Jordan,

and Syria and destroyed them on the ground. At the

same time, Israeli ground forces invaded the Sinai

and swept westward to occupy the east bank of the

Suez Canal. This was the third Arab-Israeli War in

20 years. It lasted six days, ending in a

cease-fire to which Israel agreed with great

reluctance.



   A vital part of Israel's war plan was

preventing the rest of the world from knowing

about its military victories until they could be

presented together as a FAIT ACCOMPLI. After two

or three days, this news blackout created great

anxieties among the civilian population of Israel,

but it was more important to keep foreign powers

in the dark. The Israeli leaders feared superpower

pressures for a cease-fire before they could seize

the territory which they considered necessary for

Israel's future security. Any instrument which

sought to penetrate this smoke screen so carefully

thrown around the normal "fog of war" would have

to be frustrated.



  At about 0300 on 8 June, the fourth day of the

war, the LIBERTY arrived on her designated station

which was bounded by 33 degrees and 34 degrees

East longitude, by the 32nd parallel to the north.

As for the southern boundary, Egypt claimed a

territorial sea of 12 miles, Israel only six

miles, so the LIBERTY had orders to approach no

closer to shore from 12.5 and 6.5 miles

respectively. From the center of this cruising

station, an arc of 250 miles encompasses Damascus,

most of Jordan and the Sinai peninsula, all of the

Nile Delta including Cairo, and all of Israel. In

her first hours on station, the LIBERTY was moving

inshore toward the coastal town of El Arish to

obtain visual bearings which would allow her to

retire with accuracy to a more discreet distance.



   In their blitzkrieg of 5 June, the Israelis had

used "dibber" bombs to crater the paved runways of

Arab air bases and thus render them unusable. The

runways at El Arish were spared because the

Israelis planned to overrun the base and use it

for themselves. By the time the LIBERTY arrived,

the former Egyptian airfield, which is inland from

the sea, was functioning as an advanced Israeli

air base.5



   Shortly after daybreak on 8 June, the LIBERTY'S

combat information center reported a slow-moving

air contact on radar to Ensign John D. Scott, the

officer of the deck. Around 0515, he watched the

airplane circle the LIBERTY three times and fly

away toward Tel Aviv.6  The airplane was a

French-built Nord 2501 Noratlas transport. Until

President Charles de Gaulle imposed a Middle East

arms embargo on the eve of the Six-Day War, France

was Israel's principal supplier of military

hardware. The Israeli Air Force operated a dozen

Noratlases. A twin-engine cargo plane with its

tail group carried on twin booms similar to an

American C-119 "flying boxcar," it was distinctive

to the eye even at great distances. In the Six-Day

War, the Israelis employed their Noratlases not

oly in troop carrying and battlefield resupply but

also in maritime reconnaissance.7



   Meanwhile, the engine room called for

permission to blow soot from the boiler tubes.

Ensign Scott went out on a wing of the bridge to

look at the flag in order to determine the wind's

direction and force. The flag, a standard ensign

of five by eight feet, was flying from one of the

starboard halyards of the huge steel tripod mast

which towered like an oil driller's derrick almost

100 feet above the flying bridge. At 0553, Scott

changed course to 190 degrees and gave permission

to blow tubes.



   At the moment of the LIBERTY'S course change,

it was 0353 Zulu (Greenwich Mean Time) in U.S.

military command posts the world over and 2353

Eastern Daylight Time on June 7 in Washington,

D.C., where the position of the LIBERTY had been

of some concern for at least five hours. At 2350Z

(1950 EDT), more than five hours before the

LIBERTY arrived off El Arish, an officer of the

Joint Reconnaissance Center in Washington phoned

the headquarters of the Commander in Chief, U.S.

Naval Forces Europe (CinCUSNavEur) in London with

an oral order to have the LIBERTY stay clear of

the coasts of Egypt, Israel, and Syria by 100

niles. The telephone order was followed up by a

message from the Joint Chiefs of Staff.



   There was nothing extraordinary in this,

because earlier on 7 June, Commander Sixth Fleet,

acting upon orders from the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

ordered that all of his units should stay clear of

belligerent territory by 100 miles. This order was

a political reaction to the Egyptian accusation

that Sixth Fleet aircraft had participated in the

Israeli air strikes of 5 June. Because the LIBERTY

might be understood--or misunderstood--to be an

exception to this order, it was felt necessary to

be certain she was included. Although the ship

might prove to be a minor political embarrassment,

no one imagined she was in danger.



   At 0800, the watch changed. At 0850, a jet

fighter circled the ship and headed off toward

shore. At 1030, two jet fighters circled the ship

twice and flew off toward the south. The jet

planes were flying high enough that their national

markings could not be seen, but ever since the

morning of 5 June the skies over Sinai had been

the exclusive property of Israel. At 1056, the

Noratlas appeared again and flew four slow circles

around the LIBERTY. It reappeared overhead at 1126

and again at 1220. Lieutenant James G. Ennes,

officer of the deck, noted that on each overflight

it circled for about ten minutes and did not make

any attempt to signal the LIBERTY.



   Meanwhile at 1117, Commander Sixth Fleet,

acting upon the orders of CinCUSNavEur and the

JCS, had prepared the message for the LIBERTY

which directed her to move 100 miles offshore.



   During the lunch hour, most of the off-watch

officers and crew spread themselves around the

decks to soak up a bit of sun. Lieutenant George

H. Golden, the chief engineer, was lying in a deck

chair from which he watched the Noratlas fly

directly overhead. Assuming that the crewmen of

the Israeli aircraft were looking down at the

LIBERTY in these moments, what they saw was a

large merchant ship, its dicks littered with a

hundred or more half-naked bodies staring

sightlessly at the sky. It was not a scene that

suggested menace. The chief engineer's eye also

inspected his stack for smoke and caught on the

flag flying from the bridge mast. At lunch Golden

had remarked to Lieutenant (junior grade) Malcolm

Warson that he wished they were flying their 7 by

13-foot holifay ensign which provided twice the

area for identification.



    The LIBERTY carried more conspicuous

identification than her national ensign.

Victory-type hulls festooned with antennae were

rare commodities, limited to the LIBERTY and her

sister USS BELMONT (AGTR-4). And the big "GTR 5"

painted on her bows and the sides of her stern was

unique among the world's ships. Very few of the

world's navies paint the "pennant" numbers of

their ships on bows and stern, much less with

white paint backed up by black shading to

accentuate the white.8 The numeral "5" on the

LIBERTY'S bows was almost 10 feet tall, freshly

painted only a few weeks before and quite

distinctive as distances between one or two miles

in good visibility. And on this day off El Arish

the visibility was excellent.



   Lieutenant Golden's mind turned to the general

quarters drill the captain had planned for after

the lunch hour. Commander McGonagle was well aware

that his ship's assignment to the Eastern

Mediterranean posed significantly greater hazards

than the cruising conditions off smnolent West

Africa. The LIBERTY'S "armament" was only a token

of the expression. It consisted of four

.50-caliber machine guns, two on the forecastle

and two aft of the deckhouse. They were on open

mounts which did not even have splinter shields.



   The LIBERTY'S only real defense was effective

damage control. On 5 June, the day the

Arab-Israeli War began, the captain circulated a

memo among his bridge and combat personnel which

emphasized that "...maximum effort must be made to

minimize personnel/material damage, safeguard the

watertight integrity of the ship, and continue

performance of primary mission." And he

added,"....it is better to set GQ [general

quarters] in doubtful cases than to be taken by

surprise; take immediate action as may be required

by the situation, then advise me of what steps

have been taken."



   At 1310, the LIBERTY'S general announcing

system sounded with "This is a drill! General

Quarters! All hands man your battle stations..."

This was the LIBERTY'S third GQ drill within four

days. All aspects of the drill went well except

that it took four minutes and 45 seconds to set

Condition Zebra, the ship's maximum condition of

watertightness. Commander McGonagle regarded this

as excessive and gave his crew members a brief

lecture over the announcing system. He called

their attention to a great tower of oily black

smoke boiling up into the brilliantly blue sky

about 20 miles west of El Arish. It was grim

evidence that their ship was in a potentially

dangerous position. He insisted that they had to

be a team of "heads-up ball players."



   The GQ drill was secured at 1350. The captain

checked the ship's position by radar. She was

heading 283 degrees, a shade north of due west, as

she had been since 1132. The LIBERTY was 14 miles

off the shoreline. At 1400, lookouts reported jet

aircraft to the north, and the captain went out on

the starboard wing for a lok with his binoculars.

There was a single jet fighter about five miles

off the starboard quarter at 5,000 feet and

paralleling the track of the ship.



   The airplane did not appear to be menacing, but

the captain was uneasy. He called to Lieutenant

(junior grade) Lloyd C. Painter, the officer of

the deck, "You'd better call the forward gun

mounts." The guns were fully manned, but lookouts

were being kept at the stations. Meanwhile, Ensign

Malcolm O'Malley, the junior officer of the deck,

was searching the fringes of the radar screen for

a distinct bearing on the low and almost

featureless shoreline when fast-moving contacts

rushed onto the screen at 082 degrees. He

reported, "Lloyd, I think I have three contacts

here..." But Painter was looking through one of

the forward portholes on the bridge and cranking a

telephone, trying to alert men on the forecastle

gun mounts. Because of peculiarities in the

telephone circuit, this exercise was always

frustrating.



   In this same moment, Commander Sixth Fleet's

message ordering the LIBERTY to move offshore by

100 miles had just arrived at the U.S. Defense

Communications System's radio station near Asmara,

Ethiopia, and was about to be retransmitted to the

Naval Communications Station in Greece for relay

to the ship. It was a message that did not arrive

aboard the LIBERTY until 10 June when it was

hand-delivered to the captain at Malta.9



   On board the LIBERTY, most atttention was

focused on the "decoy" jet fighter cruising to

starboard. Painter was trying to "crank up" the

gun stations. O'Malley was watching the three fast

surface contacts when he saw additional high-speed

"targets" rush onto the screen, pass over the

original contacts, and speed toward the center of

the radar display. The new blips which seized

O'Malley's eyes were jet planes moving at almost

nine miles per minute, dashing in at masthead

height from astern.



   Before O'Malley could utter a word, a terrific

explosion shook the port side of the bridge from

amidships. Painter was looking directly at the

starboard gun mount when it erupted in a flash and

disappeared in a cloud of smoke. In the same

instant, everything on the bridge seemed to

dissolve into ripples of boom-boom-boom-boom as

dozens of rockets ripped through the deckhouse.

Commander McGonagle ran in from the wing of the

bridge, hit the general quarters alarm, and called

the crew to battle stations over the general

announcing system. Then he lunged across the

wheelhouse to jangle the engine order telegraph to

full speed, then flank speed.



   The air attack battered its way through the

ship from 1403 to 1410. The planes criss-crossed

the ship about every 45 seconds, first with

rockets and napalm, then strafing. One napalm

container hit the port side. Two others were seen

to miss the ship and fall into the sea, and it may

be presumed that others were dropped and missed.

The airplanes were French-built Dassault Super

Mystere B.2 fighter-bombers, which possessed a

supersonic dash capability and were similar in

performance to the U.S. Air Force F-100. Armed to

a low-level attack mission, each could carry about

two-dozen large-caliber unguided rockets. When the

rockets were expended, each plane had two 30-mm.

cannon to bring to bear. Trained to attack small,

maneuverable targets such as tanks and armored

vehicles, it was with the greatest ease that the

Israeli pilots butchered the large, slow-moving,

and defenseless LIBERTY.



   The Israeli aircraft ordnance, designed to

penetrate the armor of tanks, punched right

through the LIBERTY'S 22-year old shell plating.

Ripping through two or three bulkheads and into

the heart of the ship's living spaces, the

projectiles exploded in compartments and

passageways with devastating effects upon human

flesh. When examined in a shipyard, the LIBERTY

was found to have 821 holes large enough for a

man's fist, and 164 of these were in the vicinity

of the bridge. Besides these holes there was

fragmentation damage which exceeded reasonable

count.



   The seven-minute air attack left eight men dead

or dying and more than 100 wounded, 50 of them

seriously enough that they were completely out of

action. And the ship was afire at three different

points. In the first 60 seconds, the ship's

executive officer and operations officer were

killed, and all of the senior deck officers were

put out of action/ The helmsman on watch was

seriously wounded, and the man who replaced him

was killed. The third helmsman, although wounded,

managed to remain at his station until the end of

the attacks.



   The radar was shot away, and the combat

information center was useless. Most of the ship's

radio transmitting equipment was badly shot up or

put in temporary disarray. The antenna systems

were badly damaged. The interior communications

room was a shambles. The only internal

communications working were the sound-powered

telephones, and not all of those circuits were

undamaged. Worst of all, the gyro compass was shot

away, eaving only a jittery magnetic compass, and

the rudder angle indicator mechanism was out of

commission. The helmsman could have no idea of how

much rudder he was applying. The only instrument

on the bridge that still worked was the

fathometer. This was forunate because there was

shoal water only a few miles off the port bow.



   In those same 60 seconds, Commander McGonage

received an ugly shrapnel wound in his right leg.

It spurted blood which transformed the leg of his

trousers into a crimson wick which trailed blood

across the deck as he rushed from one wing of the

bridge to the other, directing firefighting

parties through his phone talker, taking

photographs of the attacking planes for the

record, calling orders to the guns as long as they

were manned--and conning his ship.



   Ensign David G. Lucas was alarmed by the

captain's blood-soaked trouser-leg, so he whipped

off his belt and applied it as a tourniquet. This

took only a minute, and then the captain was up

and around again, but with increasing pain and

increasing hazard to his well-being. In spite of

this grievous wound, Commander McGonagle didn't

leave his bridge until after 0700 on 9 June.



   The LIBERTY was still fighting fires when, at

1424, three motor torpedo boats were sighted off

the starboard quarter. These were the contacts

Ensign O'alley spotted intitially at 1401.

Commander McGonagle noticed that the Israeli air

attacks had shot away the U>S> flag. Signalman

Russell O. Davis rigged a new hoist and ran up the

big 7 by 13-foot holiday ensign.



   At 1428, one of the motor torpedo boats flashed

a message to the LIBERTY, but it could not be read

because of all the smoke from fires burning on the

lower weather decks. In any case, the LIBERTY had

no means of reply because the air attacks had

destroyed her 24-inch searchlights. There was a

6-inch Aldis lamp on the bridge, but the air

attacks had damaged feeders and receptacles on the

bridge. Moreover, circuit breakers supplying the

bridge had opened, and repair parties had been too

busy fighting fires to reset them.



   The French-built torpedo boats were of the

Israeli AYAH class, 62-tonners capable of 42

knots. They bore in on the LIBERTY at high speed

and raked her decks with 20-mm. and 40-mm. guns,

Four more Americans died in this hail of steel.



   At 1431, the captain passed the word over the

announcing system: "Stand by for torpedo attack,

starboard side!" One torpedo was seen to pass 75

yards astern. But at 1435, another torpedo hit the

ship in Number 3 hold which was immediately

forward of the machinery spaces and enclosed the

LIBERTY's special communications compartments.



   Twenty-two Americans died in those

   communications spaces.



   The concussion of the torpedo's explosion

knocked open the main circuit-breakers in the

engine room, and all power was lost. The air

attacks had knocked out the emergency diesel

generator. The LIBERTY was dead in the water.

Below decks, scores of men in damage control

parties worked in a stifling darkness to establish

flooding boundaries, shore up weakened decks and

bulkheads, plug holes and cracks, and assist a new

parafe of bloodied men with broken bones,

collapsed lungs, and blown-out ear membranes to

the dressing stations on the upper decks. And in

the engine room machinist's mates and boilermen

labored by flashlight to make their plant come

alive once again.



   Meanwhile, the torpedo boats broke off from

attack and retreated astern of the LIBERTY as if

waiting for the curtain to go up on a third act of

the attack. At this moment, the curtain had indeed

gone up on a new act. During the attacks, the

LIBERTY'S radio operators had labored at great

hazard to their lives to get off a message report

of the ship's ordeal. The ship's own radio

communications were wholly separate from the

complex of "mission-oriented" systems below decks.

The LIBERTY'S radiomen worked in radio central

which had one of the biggest fires on the ship

burning on the weather deck outside, and one

bulkhead of their compartment was untouchably hot.

The air attacks had damaged their main

transmitter. An auxiliary had to be cut in and

tuned. Antennae had to be repaired. Meanwhile,

rockets and 30-mm. shells were bursting around the

radiomen.



   When transmissions became possible, they were

sent against intense jamming.10 In spite of this,

by 1420 the LIBERTY'S operators had gotten off an

attack message to the Sixth Fleet. By 1430, there

was enough of a surge in the fleet's radio traffic

to suggest to anyone monitoring these frequencies

that something unusual had happened. The carrier

AMERICA (CVA-66) launched four A-4 Skyhawks armed

with Bullpup missiles, the SARATOGA (CVA-60)

launched four attack planes with a fighter cover,

and both carriers launched a cloud of F-4B

Phantoms to cover the fleet just in case. The

pilots flying to the LIBERTY'S assistance were

"authorized to use force including destruction as

necessary."



   At the time that the alarm was ringing through

the Sixth Fleet, the Israelis hurried into

diplomatic channels to announce their mistake. The

Sixth Fleet airplanes were recalled. At 1503, one

of the Israeli torpedo boats came abeam of the

LIBERTY and signaled in English: "Do You need

assistance?" The printed record says the LIBERTY

replied "negative" or 'no thank you." Other

sources say that Captain McGonagle leaned over the

wing of his bridge and shouted "GO TO HELL!"11



   Within four minutes of this exchange, two

French-built Sud 321 Super-Frelon troop-carrying

helicopters appeared alongside the LIBERTY,

straddling the ship to port and starboard, one

forward and the other aft. And two jet fighters

were seen loitering astern of the ship, as if on

call for a second strike. The helicopters hovered

as if they did not know what to do next--as if

they had missed their cue. They were not there for

rescue service; they were carrying armed troops.

Neither machine attempted to signal the LIBERTY.

And as ominously as they has appeared, they

mysteriously departed.



   The men of the LIBERTY did not know it yet, but

the torpedo assault of 1435 was the last attack.

Power was regained at 1435, and the LIBERTY limped

off to the north at eight knots. She had a ten

degrees list from the tons of water in her flooded

communications spaces. Steering had to be done

>from  the emergency station aft and by magnetic

compass, both of which were awkward. For more than

an hour, the torpedo boats buzzed around the ship,

occasionally threatening high-seed runs on the

LIBERTY. From time to time, unidentified jet

fighters circled the ship.



   At 1841, a Sikorksy S.58 helicopter with

Israeli markings approached the ship. Commander

Ernest C. Castle, the naval attache to the U.S.

Embassy in Tel Aviv, was on board. He dropped a

note and indicated he wanted to come aboard. But

under the circumstances this was scant

identification, a landing was inexpedient, and

Commander McGonagle waved the helicopter away.



   The captain continued to conn his ship. At

sunset a chair was rigged for him on the port wing

of the bridge so he could conn the ship through

the night by keeping one eye on her wake and the

other on the north star. He could have gone below

for detailed medical attention to his wounds, but

his ship and his men were more important. As

Lieutenant Richard F. Kiepfer, the LIBERTY'S

medical officer explained it:



   "The commanding officer at that time was like a

rock upon which the rest of the men supported

themselves. To know that he was on the bridge

grievously wounded, yet having the conn and the

helm and through the night calling every change of

course, was the thing that told the [wounded]

'we're going to live.' When I went to the bridge

and saw this, I should say that I knew that I

could only insult this man by suggesting that he

be taken below for treatment of his wounds. I

didn't even suggest it."



   At 0700 on 9 June, the LIBERTY rendezvoused

with the destroyer DAVIS (DD-937), and shortly

thereafter the AMERICA appeared on the scene.

After spending 18 hours on the bridge, Commander

McGonagle finally went below.



   The LIBERTY'S scores of wounded were shuttled

to the AMERICA by helicopter, and the most

critically wounded were flown off the carrier by

C-1A Trader logistics planes to Athens for further

air transport to the naval hospital in Naples.

Commander McGonagle was not among them. He

remained on board his ship until she was

dry-docked in Malta, and it was he who took the

LIBERTY home to Pier 17 at the amphibious base,

Little Creek, Virginia, where she moored on 29

July.



   During the action of 8 June, the LIBERTY'S crew

was certain that their attackers were from the

Arab states. At that time, the relations between

the Arab states and the United States were at a

dipomatic low, and during the Six-Day War

diplomatic relations were ruptured. However, for

all the men of the LIBERTY knew, World War III had

begun. When they discovered that their attackers

were in fact Israelis--ostensible friends--they

were baffled, then angry, and finally bitter. And

through the bitterness of more than ten years has

been asked, "Why?"



   Israel claimed that the 10,000 ton, 459-foot

LIBERTY was mistaken for the ancient Egyptian

troopship EL QUSEIR of 2,640 tons, 275 feet long,

and which had a radically different deck plan and

silhouette. Indeed, it is likely that the Israelis

just picked out the Egyptian ship which most

resembled the LIBE


From kurtstele@aol.com Mon Sep 16 10:59:55 PDT 1996
Article: 66086 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: USS Liberty:  Relevance to Alt.Revisionism
Date: 15 Sep 1996 22:47:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Reply-To: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
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The reason why the USS Liberty and Qana are relevant to alt.revisionism is
because Jews are always complaining about disputed atrocities committed by
the Nazis. Yet -they- commit undisputed atrocities against other people
(which they call "mistakes" to conceal them).  

Jews constantly harp about supposed German atrocities. Yet when they
commit atrocities, they conceal them, and deny them.  It is lying. It is
hypocrisy.  

If Nazis committed deliberate atrocities, then Jews are no better than
Nazis because Jews commit atrocities themselves, both against American
servicemen and against Arabs.  What is more, Jews are actually worse
because they lie to conceal the atrocities.

Germans supposedly murdered so therefore Jews get millions of dollars
every year for "Holocaust" memorabiliia.  Yet Jews murder Arabs or U.S.
servicemen and there are no "Holocaust" remembrances, or museums, or one
Hollywood movie, yearly extractions of tax dollars.  There isn't even an
admission.  It is a blatant double standard.

Jews complain about being forcibly deported from German society yet Jews
forcibly removed Arabs from their lands and killed several thousands of
Arabs, to take their land.  More hypocrisy.  

The upshot of it is this:  Jewish hypocrisy has far too blamed other
peoples for the very things they do themselves.  It is a "Big Lie."  

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 17 08:56:14 PDT 1996
Article: 66326 of alt.revisionism
From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Criticism of Jewish Hypocrisy
Date: 15 Sep 1996 23:05:41 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Aren't you sick of hearing Jews whine about the very things they do
themselves (i.e., commit atrocities)? 

Aren't you sick of them using their money-power to prevent debate, and
pressuring publishing houses and station owners, and destroying
independent newspapers who dare to question them?

Aren't you sick of hearing Jews ask for -more- and -more- money (as if
they don't already have enough)?  

Aren't you sick of hearing Jews indulging themselves in pity parties for
themselves, while they brutalize Palestinians and break children's arms
for rock-throwing? 

Aren't you sick of Jews refusing to take responsibility for their actions,
and instead denying everything?  

Aren't you sick of Jews criticize everyone else but punishing people who
dare criticize them, as if their shit didn't stink?  

Aren't you sick of Jewish lying and hypocrisy?  

"The 'questioning' comprises making Palestinian stand for days at a time,
shackling them in contorted or bent-over positions and confining them in
tiny chairs or closet-like cubicles. Routinely deprived of sleep, the
detainees are forced to relieve themselves in their clothing and are
exposed to extremes of heat and cold while being bombarded with loud,
nonstop music.  One of the worst forms of torture is "hooding," compelling
those held for questioning to wear foul-smelling canvas sacks over their
heads for days on end."  

[Chicago Tribune, June 15, 1994]

Kurt Stele


From kurtstele@aol.com Tue Sep 17 17:40:05 PDT 1996
Article: 66431 of alt.revisionism
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From: kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "A Mistake"?  Journalist Compares Qana to USS Liberty
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:13:11 -0400
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The Phoenix Gazette

Editorial Page Column

June 5, 1996





By Mark Genrich

The Phoenix Gazette



On June 8, 1967, Israeli air and naval forces

attacked the "USS Liberty," a research ship, in

the Mediterranean Sea.



The recent Israeli shelling of a United Nations

refugee camp in Lebanon had striking similarities

to an Israeli attack on a non-combatant American

ship sailing in international waters 29 years ago.

On June 8, 1967, Israeli air and naval forces

attacked the "USS Liberty," a technical research

ship, that was peacefully sailing off the Sinai

Peninsula in the Mediterranean Sea. The Israelis

used torpedoes, napalm and machine-gun fire to

kill 34 Americans and wound 171 others.



Just as the Israelis claimed the shelling of the

refugee camp was an accident, so too, did they

claim that the attack on the "USS Liberty" was

an accident.



There were other similarities:



1. The use of extraordinary brutality.



The April 18 shelling struck a U.N. peacekeepers'

compound in south Lebanon killing more than 100

men, women and children. Knight-Ridder Newspapers

reported that survivors were overcome by the

magnitude of the killing.



"Grown men staggered around the blood-soaked

compound, weeping uncontrollably. Wailing women

threw themselves onto the burned and mangled

corpses of relatives. As they weaved among rows of

bodies shrouded with blankets, stepping over

scattered body parts, even some battle-hardened

U.N. soldiers were in tears."



During the attack on the "USS Liberty," the

Israelis used unmarked aircraft, jammed the ship's

radios on both U.S. Navy tactical and

International Maritime Distress frequencies,

destroyed by machine-gun fire life rafts that had

been dropped over the side by crewmen preparing to

abandon the ship, and refused to offer immediate

aid upon cessation of hostilities.



2. The claim Israelis do not target innocent

non-combatants.



Reported Associated Press writer Greg Myre,

"Israel says it does not intentionally target

civilians...But the gray gunboats off the port

city of Sidon, 25 miles south of Beirut, fire day

and night at civilian cars heading south on what

is normally the country's busiest highway. Since

Friday, three cars have been destroyed after being

hit by shrapnel, and three more have skidded off

the road and crashed in high-speed attempts to

evade the Israeli fire."



According to Human Rights Watch, an organization

that tracks human-rights abuses worldwide, Israel

has displayed "indiscriminate and

disproportionate" shelling of villages in

southern Lebanon. While the human-rights report

appropriately condemns Hezbollah guerrillas for

indiscriminately firing Katyusha rockets into

Israel, it also documented Israel's manifest

violations of international law including,

"Targeting whole villages without specific

military objectives and without regard for

civilian casualties; specifically targeting the

civilian infrastructure, including power stations

and water reservoirs; deliberately creating a

refugee crisis to put pressure on the Lebanese

government; and deliberately targeting ambulances

and civilian vehicles."



A "USS Liberty" survivor, Lt. Cmdr. David Edwin

Lewis, says, "The Israelis obviously had

sufficient time to plan their armament load. There

were apparently heat-seeking missiles used to take

out the tuning coil of every antenna, there were

fragmentation bombs used to take out the parabolic

dish fore and aft. On the first strafing run

virtually all communications and all means of

survival were destroyed. If it was an accident, it

was the best prepared accident on Earth."



3. The Israelis deny the attack was deliberate.



An investigation by Maj. Gen. Franklin van Kappen,

a Dutch military adviser to the United Nations,

concluded, "While the possibility cannot be ruled

out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling

of the United Nations compound was the result of

gross technical and/or procedural errors."



The "Los Angeles Times" reported, "The most

damaging point of the report - and to Israel's

case - has been proof that Israel flew

surveillance aircraft over the camp while the

firing was going on. Contrary to repeated denials,

two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted

vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time

of the shelling...Israel denied this to the United

Nations and publicly until the British newspaper

"The Independent" reported the existence of an

amateur videotape showing an Israeli pilotless

reconnaissance aircraft - the kind used by

artillery spotters to perfect their aim - over

Qana during the shelling." Once aware of the

videotape, Israel changed its story.



Finally, the most recent unbiased research into

the assault on the "USS Liberty" was conducted

by Dr. John Edgar Borne at New York University.

His detailed analysis concludes that "the account

of the attack given by the Liberty men is the

correct and truthful one" and that the attack

"was deliberate and that all available evidence

points to this conclusion."



(E-mail Mark Genrich, deputy editorial page

editor, at MLGedit or MLGedit@aol.com.)



(Copyright, Phoenix Newspapers Inc.)

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