The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/smith.bradley.r/1994/bs.0894


Archive/File: holocaust/usa/codoh bs.0894
Last-Modified: 1994/09/23

Article 14537 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 1 Aug 1994 00:43:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31hugr$emj@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

WHERE IN THE HELL ARE THEY?  I've read your entire message, which can be
encapsulated more or less in that question. It's a heartfelt question and
there's every reason for you to ask it. It's not a question I can not
answer or have ever attempted to answer. I'm doing something of very
limited scope. If you want me to answer big historical questions, I'm
going to be a big disappointment for you.    

bradley


Article 14538 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 1 Aug 1994 01:21:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 63
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31i0nt$f87@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <31hkpb$jae@prime.mdata.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <31hkpb$jae@prime.mdata.fi>, kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari
Nenonen) writes:


"Why don't you ask Berenbaum?
"This is so typical for you revisionists. You dig up some little detail
and start demanding answers as if this list was some kind of ensyclopedia
and the people here were your clarks. If you've got some facts about
that camp "near Geissen" you could at least give those facts first and
start asking questions after that."


     Well, I agree. For some reason I didn't think of it that way--the
"clarks" business. Anyway, following is the complete text of the material
relating to the alleged gas chamber near Giessen.

Reference: The World Must Know: The History of the Holocaust as Told in
the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, by Michael Berenbaum. [1993,
Little Brown,  First Edition, pages 6 - 7.]   

Berenbaum was Project Director for the Museum, may still be. He's a
professor of theology at Georgetown.

===================================================================
     Curtis Whiteway was one of the American soldiers who entered a
concentration camp. He does not even remember which camp. It may have been
Hadamar, near Giessen in Germany. He remembered storming the gates and
then encountering hell:

     "As we burst into the camp and spread out, I saw in front of me a row
of wooden one story barracks.... [breaks in text in are in WMK] One of my
men came for me. And he asked me ... `You'd better come with me.' His tone
of voice was very serious. 
     "I followed him across the yard to a building -- to the best of my
memory, a masontry building. The windows were all seald up. Outside ...
eight automobiles, all up on blocks. The wheels had been taken off. The
exhausts were piped in through the wall of that building. We went inside
the door. 
     "In the room ... there was human excretion, vomit, urine, blood all
over the room. I did not understand.
     "And there were shower heads and faucets, all over the wall. One of
my men called out to me. He said: `What the hell's going on here?' He
said: `There's no water.'
     "We entered the back room filled with benches and tables. And on one
of the tables there were thousands of gold wedding rings ... piles of
human teeth with gold fillins .... It was obvious that someone was in
there counting them.
     "We went outside into the yard. In front of me I could see human
hair. There were piles of boots, shoes, suitcases, eyeglasses. To my left
was four-wheel hay wagons and two-wheel push carts. Only these wagons
contained nude bodies ... men, women and childrfen, even babies. All nude,
all dead, all piled as high as they basically could pile them."

====================================================================

     So, how can it be demonstrated that the Whiteway gas chamber actually
existed?  Has it been referenced before? With what proofs?

bradley
      





Article 14594 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 1 Aug 1994 22:42:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31kbpr$4tb@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>re the issue of name-calling revisionists:  I am routinely labeled a
racist, anti-semite, bigot, hater, and liar in the print press and who
knows where else. Routinely.  I'm putting together a package of press
clippings, hopefully it'll be ready next week--I'm already a month behind
with it--and I'm going to make it available to those who want it. Those
making the accusations routinely are academics, spokespeople for Hillel,
the ADL, AJC, SWC,  Etc. and journalists who simply repeat what they're
told by others. 

I don't really want to go on about it. It's all old hat. I only wanted to
make the point that it would be better if we did not follow a double
standard with respect to this issue. 

b.


Article 14595 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 1 Aug 1994 22:49:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31kc77$512@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re the double negative:  it's a typo

re being of zero value to historians:  I am, indeed, of zero value to
historians. I'm doing what I can to promote open debate on the Holocaust
controversy in media, particularly for starters in the college press.  I'm
interested first in the taboo that protects the controversy from routine
debate. Somewhere down the line I'm interested in the historical facts.
Your interests might no coincide with mine.

B.


Article 14596 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 1 Aug 1994 22:54:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31kcgb$54r@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) writes:

>re my being able to say where "they are."  The double negative was a
typo. Apolgies. I have little idea where "they" are, and no idea whatever
where your grand folks are. 

But I do agree with you about open debate--that is, intellectual liberty.
It is a very big issue indeed, and it is the issue I am interested in.

B.


Article 14608 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 2 Aug 1994 02:00:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <31kne5$1se@access1.digex.net>
References: <31hkpb$jae@prime.mdata.fi> <31i0nt$f87@search01.news.aol.com> <31kbj2$hvl@access1.digex.net>
Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <31kbj2$hvl@access1.digex.net>,
Michael P. Stein  wrote:
[a lot of deleted stuff]

    We've had an email exchange, which I'm posting as a series of articles.

From BradleyRS@aol.com Tue Aug  2 01:51:39 1994
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 22:25:06 EDT
From: BradleyRS@aol.com
To: mstein@access.digex.net
Subject: Re: open debate

re all the fax business:  some lady with a French sounding name shamed me
into typing Berenbaum's text into a reply to her post yesterday.

re posting my private e-mail. Please do. Unless I specifically ask you not
to. I don't see why I ever would. But then who knows?

B.


From BradleyRS@aol.com Tue Aug  2 01:51:51 1994
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 23:13:02 EDT
From: BradleyRS@aol.com
To: mstein@access.digex.net
Subject: Re: open debate

Mike:

You write more in this message than I want to read. Try keeping it simpler
and shorter. One or two points at a time.

I would only say two things in response at the moment: 

1)  I'm not an amatuer historian, I'm a free press advocate.  

2)  I've asked a simple question about the alleged gas chamber near Giessen.
 My reasons are that the claim goes to the credibility of Berenbaum and
through him to the Museum. I don't buy the idea that Berenbaum reported the
Giessen gas chamber story as a generic holocaust tale. I believe he wants
visitors to the Museum and readers of his book to believe it. He says nothing
to the contrary.
Nevertheless, it's possible you'r right.  

That promotes another question: How do we know when Berenbaum is serious and
when he's only fooling around?

B.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 14610 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 2 Aug 1994 02:09:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <31knuk$2lq@access1.digex.net>
References: <31hkpb$jae@prime.mdata.fi> <31i0nt$f87@search01.news.aol.com> <31kbj2$hvl@access1.digex.net> <31kne5$1se@access1.digex.net>
Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

    The following is unedited email posted by permission in response to 
my previous posting.

From BradleyRS@aol.com Tue Aug  2 01:53:16 1994
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 01:23:12 EDT
From: BradleyRS@aol.com
To: mstein@access.digex.net
Subject: Re: open debate

re posting previous e-mail on internet:  I have not.

re whether Whitway's testimony is result of hallucination, lying or mistake:
 I'm suspicious of it. I do not believe Berenbaum is making up anything her.

re existence of Whiteway:  He exists. I've talk to him on radio--several
years ago, on a New England station (can't recall which one), and he was
interviewed in The Justice, the student newspaper at Brandeis, probably in
January 94, as a result of my advertisement that ran in that paper
challenging the USHMM. I've misplaced the bloody news story but am trying to
get another copy of it. 

re my doubts over the Whiteway testimony: I'd never heard of it before
Berenbaum ran with it. It's not in any of the orthodox literature that I'm
familiar with, and I'm familiar with a lot of it. 
My sense of things is that if there were real proof for the gas chamber near
Giessen, particularly since it was liberated by American military, we'd all
have heard about it--endlessly. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to entertain
proof for the Giessen gas chamber.  I don't expect you to have it. But it is
a simple thing to call the Museum. Their people are available to anyone not
publicly associated with revisionism.

It's Berenbaum who's forwarding the Giessen gas chamber story. Perhaps a
quarter of a million students and academics have read the advertisement in
which I have questioned the story in some 40 student newspapers. No response
has appeared from any quarter. I believe the reason is that the story can not
be shown to hold water. 

I'm willing to be convinced that I'm wrong.

B. 

PS: Can you post this to Internet?


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 14611 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 1 Aug 1994 22:49:11 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <31kc77$512@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 06:30:02 GMT
Lines: 52


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re being of zero value to historians:  I am, indeed, of zero value to
>historians. I'm doing what I can to promote open debate on the Holocaust
>controversy in media, particularly for starters in the college press.  I'm
>interested first in the taboo that protects the controversy from routine
>debate. Somewhere down the line I'm interested in the historical facts.
>Your interests might no coincide with mine.


Witnessing what has gone on in this list I think we'd have to conclude
that there is absolutely no such taboo here. These issues have been
discussed mercilessly.

However, the result seems to be that completely discredited views,
such as the claim that no gassing facilities were used by the Nazis to
kill people, are repeated over and over anyhow as if the refutations
didn't exist.

At best a small noise is made that perhaps the refutation could, by
some stretch of the imagination, be a little better. We could
transport the doubter back in time and have him stand at the gas
chamber doors for a few days, perhaps that would be finally
incontrovertible. But we can't do that, so the denier claims that
failing that there is still room for further discussion and repeats
his assertions anew.

That's the problem really, at best it's often sort of like arguing
with a churlish adolescent who just won't take anything for an answer
when it's fairly obvious their question has been more than adequately
answered, but they just don't like the answer so they ask again or
make some excuse to re-pose the question.

There really has to be a point where it will be asserted that a
question raised has been adequately answered and if you do not like
the answer, well, sorry. I personally don't go in for these "then
maybe all those documents you've presented are forgeries!" kinds of
rebuttals. Somewhere there has to be some burden of proof to show they
are forgeries, or whatever the objection, or let the evidence stand
and admit what it proves.

Or else? Well, get accustomed to ridicule, what else can one do with
someone who won't accept that their question has been adequately
answered. Puerile nihilism aside, we've certainly seen enough of that.



-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14651 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 2 Aug 1994 23:45:05 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Sender: bradleyrs@aol.com
Message-ID: <31n3s1$s8v@access2.digex.net>
References: <31hkpb$jae@prime.mdata.fi> <31kne5$1se@access1.digex.net> <31knuk$2lq@access1.digex.net> <31kq8u$3ed@access1.digex.net>
Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

    Email posted unedited under a blanked permission previously granted.

From BradleyRS@aol.com Tue Aug  2 22:29:52 1994
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 20:35:31 EDT
From: BradleyRS@aol.com
To: mstein@access.digex.net
Subject: Re: open debate

Dear Stein:

re Whiteway:  I'm not addressing whether he's lying, etc.  Berenbaum is using
him; I'm addressing Berenbaum's use of him.

re Hadamar:  I'm not addressing a "Hadamar" gas chamber. Berenbaum said it
"may have been" at Hadamar. I'm addressing a statement, an accusation, made
by Berenbaum.  This particular gas chamber may have been at Hadamar, or it
may have been some place else, or it may have.... who knows? 

It's not just college students who have read my challenge. Several tens of
thousands of professional academics have read it. If none of them are
interested in knowing where Berenbaum/Whiteway gas chamber was, then I'll go
on to something else. But I don't believe that that is the scenario that's
being played out.

B.     


-- 

From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 01:44:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <321sb1$7g@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re denying the Holocaust being a fiercely anti-Jewish act:  I no longer
believe the homicidal gas chamber stories. The gas chambers and the
Holocaust are not identical. Doubting what another believes doesn't imply
hatred of the other.


Article 14691 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 01:52:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <321sq1$bq@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 

In article ,
dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) writes:

re your question about open debate and "Why the Holocaust only?": The
short answer is, I don't know.  But I do know that I don't believe any of
us can ever get to the bottom of motive and that I'm not going to use my
time addressing either mine or yours.

If you have any information about Berenbaum's phoney "Whiteway" gas
chamber someplace near Giessen, however, I'd be glad to see it.


Article 14693 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Bradley Smith
Date: 7 Aug 1994 02:50:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32206q$216@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <31r9gm$ipf@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <31r9gm$ipf@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re your question of what I would consider accepting as proof for the
"Whiteway" gas chamber, referenced by Berenbaum in The World Must Know:
physical remains or war time generated documents would be good for
starters.

re your suggestion that we consider a "hypothetical" list of possible
evidence:  let's not.  Let's stay with physical evidence or wartime
generated documents that colaborate Whiteway. If neither exist, then those
who want to go with the hypotheticals elaborate any fantasy that occurs to
them.


Article 14694 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!ddsw1!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conversations on Open Debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 03:01:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3220rd$29s@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , golux@mcs.com (The only
Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) writes:

re my alleged double standard for addressing what I see as Professor
Berenbaum's failings while not wanting to address Greg Raven's alleged
failings:  Raven is a revisionist; most every intellectual class in
America is willing to address the failings of the revisionists. Berenbaum
is an orthodox Holocaust historian; no intellectual class, and no
extablishment intellectuals are willing to address his. As a matter of
fact, that's exactly why I'm in this controversy.

Where is are the proofs that the Whiteway gas chamber "near" Giessen ever
existed, as Berenbaum has it in his The World Must Know?   


Article 14701 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 12:54:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 34
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3233jf$ell@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <321v7t$16i@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <321v7t$16i@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

Re whether you should take my word about anything: Why should you?

re my making a big deal about not being a historian: When Mike Stein
suggested that he and I are both amatuer historians I said that I am not
one. I'm not. 

re our telephone conversation of (?):  I don't remember it.

re you posting of a "few" eyewitness testimonies:  I'm familiar with with
much of that stuff, but will have no comment on it here. I'm going to do
something else here. 

re your question as to whether I have any arguments to support my
position: this is the argument I have to support my position about the
"Whiteway" gas chamber, referenced by Berenbaum in his The World Must
Know, which Berenbaum writes "may have been" near Giessen.  My argument
does not present "proof" that the Whiteway gas chamber did not exist: 

For close to a year now I have put myself on the record before a quarter
million or more academics and students as being a skeptic about the
Whiteway gas chamber, suggesting that it can not be shown that the thing
ever existed. Not a single individual has responded with proof that it
did, including the principles (Berenbaum and Whiteway). I'm the one who
has gone out on limb; I have put my entire "Campus Project" on the line. I
still await proof, or even an attempt at providing proof, about this
particular gas chamber.

Will you please post references to gassings in Whiteway's gas chamber that
may have been near Giessen rather than all that other stuff? 

Thanks.  


Article 14703 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 7 Aug 1994 12:54:07 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <321v7t$16i@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3233jf$ell@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 19:06:04 GMT
Lines: 54


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>For close to a year now I have put myself on the record before a quarter
>million or more academics and students as being a skeptic about the
>Whiteway gas chamber, suggesting that it can not be shown that the thing
>ever existed. Not a single individual has responded with proof that it
>did, including the principles (Berenbaum and Whiteway). I'm the one who
>has gone out on limb; I have put my entire "Campus Project" on the line. I
>still await proof, or even an attempt at providing proof, about this
>particular gas chamber.

Perhaps no one believes this particular nit is important or worthwhile?

Clearly you're trying to establish the rules, and now complain when
you're mostly ignored. I think it's up to you to achieve respect, you
can't just complain that you were ignored, in the academic world being
ignored is the definition of failure.

Why are you different? Because you think your treatment is politically
motivated?

Hah, as a former academic I'll tell ya, although the reasoning is
rarely so dark that's the most common excuse for failure, it's
difficult to go through a day w/o someone who's not doing so well
bending your ear about how it's not that their ideas are bad, it's
that blah blah blah blah. Sometimes it's true, then again the
reasoning is rarely so fantastic, usually it's just rationalization or
coincidence (eg, yes the dean probably doesn't like you *and* by the
way your ideas suck.)

I think that's exactly where you stand here. Your ideas may be very
unpopular but so what? You think that's new in academia?

No, it's not.

I think the easier explanation is that your ideas don't stir those who
might be interested (other than a few neo-nazi skinheads as we've seen
right here, they sense an opportunity whether you like that or not),
so mostly all you hear from are people who for whatever reason don't
like your ideas on some less academic level.

Academics (some constant percentage of academics) *love* to be
controversial, it's the stuff of dreams, it's what academic careers
are built of. If you had some compelling ideas or evidence they would
have stolen it from you as their own long ago.

Personally I think you're very confused about all this, you're reading
into the silence only that which suits your self-esteem.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14708 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!nac.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!meaddata!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 15:31:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323cpn$i2j@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re my having made up my mind about the "Whiteway" gas chamber:  I've
probably left something unsaid that I should have said up front, because I
suppose I thought that probably everybody understood:  I don't believe any
of the gas chamber stories. It's a given then that I would doubt the
Whiteway gas chamber. I don't believe it existed; I'm willing to be
convinced I'm wrong. I'm sort of waiting around for someone to take a run
at it. You may not have the time or inclination. 


Article 14711 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 16:20:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323fli$j2c@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

>re all the above speculation about my character etc:  I'm simply asking
for proof that the Whiteway "gas chamber" existed, which would in turn
suggest that Berenbaum acted responsibly in using it in his 1993 The World
Must Know. If it didn't, he didn't, and it will go to the standards
maintained by the U.S. Holocaust Museum.

But listen, if it doesn't interest you, let it slide.


Article 14712 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 16:25:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323fuu$j5r@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re the Holocaust and the "genocide" (did I say gas chambers? close) not
being differentiated: the reason it's important is that "Holocaust" refers
to the entire history of the persecution of the Jews during the Hitlerian
regime, while "genocide" refers specifically to the alleged attempt to
murder the European Jews as a people. Persecution is common, attempted
genocide rare.
Nevertheless, if the distinction is not going to be made here in
alt.revisionism, I'll drop it.  


Article 14713 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 16:30:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323g8d$j98@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re physical remains of alleged gassing chambers: we allegedly have them at
Auschwitz, Birkenau, Maidanek, Struthof, Dachau, Mathausen etc. etc.  Why
not ask about the physical remains of Whiteway's gas chamber. Of course,
the Holocaust Museum, tho it exploits the story, doesn't appear to know
where the remains were originally so it is probably doubtful that it knows
where they are now.

re other kinds of evidence: why not take a look at all of it. Where is it?




Article 14714 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 16:46:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 35
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323h6a$jk5@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <1994Aug7.195156.27891@galois.mit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <1994Aug7.195156.27891@galois.mit.edu>, lenivch@math.mit.edu
(Witold Biedrzycki) writes:

re the possibility that the Whiteway gas chamber story is not true--does
that mean that all gas chamber stories are false:  no, it doesn't. But if
it can not be deomonstrated that Whiteway is telling us the truth about
his gas chamber it goes to the point that each gas chamber story must be
judged on its own merits.

If the Whiteway gas chamber story is corrupt it goes to the merit of
Professor Michael Berenbaum's work as an historian and perhaps to his
character.  It would also go to the intellectual and ethical standards of
the U.S. Holocaust Museum, for which Berenbaum speaks.

I believe the Whiteway gas chamber allegation is an important story for
those reasons. Those accusations made against Germans which are not true
or can not be shown to be true should be withdrawn and apologised for. It
would be the decent thing to do.

The Whiteway gas chamber accusation then leads from a witness, to an
important historian, to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum and spreads on
out through the various intellectual classes across the nation that never
ask any of the questions revisionist ordinarily ask. From little acorns
mighty oaks do grow.

Keeping in mind all the while that it may be possible to prove that the
Whiteway gas chamber did exist and that my viewpoint toward all this goes
to show that I have no insight whatever into the role the Holocaust story
plays in public discourse in America.  It would be an interesting turn of
events for me, to say the least.

So: what proofs are there for the Whiteway / Berenbaum / Holocaust Museum
gas chamber near Giessen?

 


Article 14716 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conversations on Open Debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 16:53:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323hjf$jpv@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re: exactly-analogous situations: not interested. I guess I should point
out however that it was the revisionists who got rid of the flat-earth
theory, not the court astromoners.

re: the Whiteway/Berenbaum gas chamber being a tiny detail which you
hadn't heard about before and that if it did not exist would be only a
tiny error:  how could the Whiteway/Berenbaum story be an "error?"  


Article 14720 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!concert!decwrl!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 7 Aug 1994 16:30:05 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <323g8d$j98@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 21:19:46 GMT
Lines: 81


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re physical remains of alleged gassing chambers: we allegedly have them at
>Auschwitz, Birkenau, Maidanek, Struthof, Dachau, Mathausen etc. etc.  Why
>not ask about the physical remains of Whiteway's gas chamber. Of course,
>the Holocaust Museum, tho it exploits the story, doesn't appear to know
>where the remains were originally so it is probably doubtful that it knows
>where they are now.

I thought your whole point was that Berenbaum said that a gas chamber
exhibited at the Holocaust Museum was Whiteway's gas chamber? Isn't
that physical remains?

Or do you mean that you don't accept this as authentic for some reason
(mainly that Berenbaum won't personally prove to you whether or not
it's authentic, to your own standard of evidence) so therefore it's
not physical remains?

Or is "Whiteway's gas chamber" different from the one you say
Berenbaum spoke of?

What do you mean "doesn't appear to know where the remains were
originally"? Do you mean that because Berenbaum used a phrase like
"probably near Giessen" that therefore you know what the entire staff
of the Holocaust Museum et al know about this object? That's quite a
leap from one quote (I've seen the quote, you've posted it here) which
is also easily explained as mere prudence, possibly even habitual
prudence (e.g. Berenbaum himself hasn't personally studied the origin
of the gas chamber so like so many scholars interjects a "probably" in
his sentence as a matter of habit when it's not his own, experiential
knowledge.)

Or perhaps there is some dispute as to its exact origin. But dispute
of exact origin alone does not mean inauthenticity. For example, you
go to a locker where a document dated September 1945 says "we have
stored two gas chambers, one from near Giessen and the other we took
from Struthof" and find only one gas chamber, perhaps evidence that
another was there but removed, you don't know by who. Ok, so this one
is either from near Giessen or Struthof, there's no way to tell. The
document goes on to say that the one found near Giessen is green. This
one is green, it doesn't say anything about the color of the other. So
you conclude this one is "probably from near Giessen." Etc.

That is, it's completely possible there's some question left about
this gas chamber's precise origin, but no doubt about its
authenticity.

Besides, it's not the only surviving gas chamber, is it?

>re other kinds of evidence: why not take a look at all of it. Where is it?

Have a ball. But don't sit there saying "no one will look at this or
that so I conclude the whole thing is a fake". Go look at it yourself.

That's part of the trick here, right? You figure you can be so
inflammatory as to trick someone else into doing your legwork to go
gather some evidence for you. There's three possibilities: Maybe it's
all a dead end and nothing conclusive can be found, or perhaps it
points towards your "hoax" theory, or perhaps it disproves it.

A lot of evidence of course will fall into the first category, nothing
can be concluded really, whatever it is you are looking for simply
cannot be found. Of course, you will make much of not finding
something, innuendo etc., someone is hiding something, blah blah.

On the other hand if it points towards your hoax theory then it's
useful to you, if it points against it you will just forget it ever
existed and pick up something else to focus on as you've done so many
times before.

But, in every case, you've taunted others to do your work. And at no
cost nor risk to you.

Forget it, won't work, people aren't that stupid.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14721 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 7 Aug 1994 16:20:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <323fli$j2c@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 21:23:40 GMT
Lines: 23


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>>re all the above speculation about my character etc:  I'm simply asking
>for proof that the Whiteway "gas chamber" existed, which would in turn
>suggest that Berenbaum acted responsibly in using it in his 1993 The World
>Must Know. If it didn't, he didn't, and it will go to the standards
>maintained by the U.S. Holocaust Museum.

So ask Berenbaum! Have you? Have you tried?

Gosh, imagine if all of us took out college newspaper ads every time
we found some little detail we thought should be further
substantiated.

It still seems to me that you're after publicity, not the answer to
this question.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14726 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 17:59:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323lf6$l89@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re the world wide distribution of aol alt.revisionism and how CODOH has
never had such freedom:  you lift my heart.

re your need to talk about gas chambers every other place other than some
place near Giessen:  one gas chamber at a time, Jamie. One gas chamber at
a time. 

re it being ONLY Berenbaum who might have thrown a ringer into the gas
chamber debate:  he speaks for the Holocaust Museum, which in turn is
perceived by many, and I believe unfortunately, to represent the "Jewish
community," and he, along with Professor Deborah Lipstadt, have positioned
themselves as the two most active academics working to suppress open
debate about the controversy on college campuses. To you Berenbaum may be
a nothing, but for me he's my huckleberry--to rip off an expression used
by one of our screen Doc Hollidays.


Article 14727 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:05:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323lqg$lcb@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re the use of words "holocaust" and "genocide:"  the latter is a part of
the former. As I say, if you guys aren't making that distinction, I won't
either, unless I find some reason that it would help me speak more
clearly.


Article 14728 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:07:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 6
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323lu6$ldj@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re comparisons of relative ratings of Berenbaum and Irving: I don't want
to get into it.  As a matter of fact, and only as an aside, Irving is a
late-comer with regard to the gas chamber controversy.


Article 14729 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:17:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323mgv$lk7@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

re implying the Whteway gas chamber as being exhibited in the Holocaust
Museum:  I didn't mean to imply that, and don't know how I did, but no.

re Berenbaum being "prudent" in stating the Whiteway gas chamber "may have
been" near Giessen:  I hadn't thought of the issue of prudence exactly
before, but now that you put the idea to me I would say that Berenbaum was
not prudent at all but very imprudent indeed.  Being prudent suggests not
making allegations of mass murder at a place you can't identify, with a
weapon you have no proof existed, and for which there are no known
victims.

Where was the Whiteway gas chamber and how do we know?   


Article 14730 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:21:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323moe$ln7@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

re my asking Berenbaum about the Whiteway gas chamber: he has told me
personally and publicly that he makes it a practice to not discuss
anything with "deniers."

re your "little detail:"  you wish. An allegation of mass murder in a
homicidal gas chamber, promoted by a mainline historian representing the
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, for which their appears to be no proof.
Little for you, big for me.  You want to let it go, let it go.


Article 14731 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!meaddata!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:27:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323n3l$lr8@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <323jbj$o8a@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <323jbj$o8a@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re Berenbaum being fooled by (for the sake of argument) a liar--how does
that go to Berenbaum's character:  there are routine academic methods to
check out stories like Whiteway's. I notice that no one has asked if there
are any photos of this phantom gas chamber. Are there U.S. military
references to it? Why has it not exploited by the lobby that exploits
every other imaginable similar story?

The matter passes over from an academic one if we consider the possiblity
that Berenbaum believes it's alright to promote a corrupt story if it
debases Germans while he would not feel that was if the story went to the
behavior or any other people.

A lot can be said about this stuff, but the real issue is: did the
Whiteway gas chamber exist and how do we know?


Article 14732 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!meaddata!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:31:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 9
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323nb5$lu8@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re talking about gas chambers other than the one Whiteway and Berenbaum
say were near Giessen:  you go ahead with the other lads. I'm going to
stay with this one story here until it is resolved one way or the other or
until no one is interested in it.

There's no need for you to bore yourself any longer with it. 


Article 14733 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conversations on Open Debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:33:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 4
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323neu$m04@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re Whiteway and his gas chamber: how could his story be an error?


Article 14734 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conversations on Open Debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:35:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 8
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323nil$m1v@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <323jlj$omh@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <323jlj$omh@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re the analogy business:  you have an interest in figuring things out
"logically"  Nothing wrong with it. I don't want to start there. You can't
have everthing the way you want it, Michael.

If the Whiteway gas chamber existed, where was it and how do we know?


Article 14737 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!meaddata!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Bradley Smith
Date: 7 Aug 1994 18:43:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323o1r$m8u@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <323iiu$nth@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <323iiu$nth@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re my not accepting "eyewitness" evidence:  I have not said that. On
principle, eyewitness evidence is very important. Its importance rises and
diminishes along with the quality of other evidence that collaborates it.

re "exploring" the physical evidence for the Whiteway gas chamber: lets
start with the physical location of his gassing chamber and then the
physical remains of the gassing chamber, then the physical remains of the
gassing implements etc.  

Is Whiteway's testimony about the physical remains of his gas chamber
collaborated by anything? If it is, I'm all ears. 


Article 14741 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!nac.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 7 Aug 1994 18:17:03 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <323mgv$lk7@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 23:42:08 GMT
Lines: 46


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re Berenbaum being "prudent" in stating the Whiteway gas chamber "may have
>been" near Giessen:  I hadn't thought of the issue of prudence exactly
>before, but now that you put the idea to me I would say that Berenbaum was
>not prudent at all but very imprudent indeed.  Being prudent suggests not
>making allegations of mass murder at a place you can't identify, with a
>weapon you have no proof existed, and for which there are no known
>victims.

Again, you're reading a lot into the words "may have been" I think.

And if he's right?

The quote you cite hardly claimed to offer a proof, it was a statement
of a conclusion. As I've said previously, go ask Berenbaum.

It seems to me from the quote that the issue it might possibly raise
is not whether or not it was a homicidal gassing chamber &c but rather
whether or not it was from near Giessen.

>Where was the Whiteway gas chamber and how do we know?   

No, Mr Smith, your question really is: WHAT was the Whiteway gas
chamber (used for), and how do we know?

Except perhaps if you are actually interested in the very specific
assertion that there were no homicidal gassing chambers operated in
the Altreich (which Giessen or nearby would be.) But hasn't that point
been disproved already, and the correct wording would be there were
probably no MASS homicidal gassing facilities in the Altreich which
revisionists have somehow mistaken for no homicidal gassing
facilities?

But that's not your point, right? Not the Altreich thing, because even
if the chamber was operated outside the Altreich by Nazis you'd have a
problem with that. Whether or not it was inside the Altreich is a
nearly irrelevant detail (particularly when you consider that the
claim that no gassing occurred in the Altreich is already disproven
and was merely wordplay.)

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14744 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 19:58:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323sed$nri@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re a recognition of symmmetry between revisionist and orthodox scholars
with regard to error and fraud: sure. I've always understood that the
refusal of establishment scholars to criticize revisionist writings is
deleterious for two reasons: 1) that students and others are not made
privy to the revisionist critique of the orthodox scholarship and 2) they
are not made privy to the real weaknesses in published revisionist works
and have to rely on childish accusations of anti-semtism etc. to convince
themselves that the revisionists are wrong. Students loose both ways,
along with everyone else.




Article 14745 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 20:00:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 6
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323si3$nst@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re talking about a lot of gas chambers at one time:  I just can't. I can't
barely keep up with the Whiteway fiasco.



Article 14746 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Bradley Smith
Date: 7 Aug 1994 20:03:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <323snq$nvr@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re the value of a convergence of evidence: I think its a perfectly
reasonable concept.

Where is the convergence of evidence on the Whiteway gas chamber?


Article 14747 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 7 Aug 1994 18:21:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <323moe$ln7@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 00:32:13 GMT
Lines: 70


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re your "little detail:"  you wish. An allegation of mass murder in a
>homicidal gas chamber, promoted by a mainline historian representing the
>U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, for which their appears to be no proof.

Wait a minute, I just went across the street to the bookstore and
bought "The World Must Know" which you're citing.

The actual full quote is:

	Curtis Whiteway was one of the American soldiers
	who entered a concentration camp. He does not even
	remember which camp. It may have been Hadamar, near
	Giessen in Germany. He remembered storming the
	gates and then encountering hell:

	[quote from Whiteway recounting what he saw, including
	a "gas chamber" (nothing fancy apparently) running off
	an automobile's exhaust, the auto was on blocks.]

Here was what you posted here:

>Example: In an advertisement that I have been running in student
>newspapers at universities around the country (A Revisionist Challenge to
>the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum) I refer to a claim in Michael
>Berenbaum's
>The World Must Know: The History of the Holocaust as Told in the United
>States Holocaust Memorial Museum (Little, Brown & Co.) that a homicidal
>gassing chamber was operated by the Gemans which "may have been ... near
>Giessen .... " (p.6)


Berenbaum was only recounting Whiteway's memory of the event.

Why did you elide "may have been *Hadamar,* near Giessen"?

One word, one lousy word, Hadamar, why did you replace it with
ellipsis?

So Berenbaum doesn't say it "may have been ... near Giessen" at all as
you imply, he says IT *MAY* HAVE BEEN HADAMAR, and says that HADAMAR
IS NEAR GIESSEN (surely that's not your dispute.)

You are so full of crap it's unbelievable.

How come every time someone checks out something by these Holocaust
Deniers it comes up as a shameless lie or distortion.

The World Must Know indeed, The World Must Know that Bradley Smith and
his band of frauds are shameless liars and propagandists, that's what
the World Must Know.

Unbelievable.

And it's not even Berenbaum's claim, it's Whiteway's claim.

*Whiteway* claims he saw...oh, what's the use?

This is such transparent and unadulterated and dishonest rubbish, Mr
Smith, utter crap.

And you wonder why decent people like Berenbaum won't talk with
deniers...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14753 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 7 Aug 1994 18:27:01 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <323jbj$o8a@access3.digex.net> <323n3l$lr8@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 01:09:20 GMT
Lines: 11


Since the real issue here is Whiteway and not really Berenbaum, except
by implication, does anyone know the origin of the Whiteway quote? Or
who Whiteway is/was? Is he still alive?


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14755 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conversations on Open Debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:28:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 9
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3241n9$q36@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <323rap$t2u@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <323rap$t2u@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re my suggesting Whiteway is a "liar:"  I'm not saying that. On the other
hand I don't believe him. It's a real problem. 

re not calling it "Whiteway's" gas chamber: I'm doing that to identify it
only.  Where was it? How do we know? He's the one making the original
accusation. 


Article 14756 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conversations on Open Debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:30:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3241qr$q59@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <323rns$3g@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <323rns$3g@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net (Michael
P. Stein) writes:

re the Whiteway gas chamber: you don't know where it was. Why not drop it?
I'll ask others.


Article 14757 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:34:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32422d$q7r@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

re what if Berenbaum is right about the Whiteway gas chamber being
someplace near Giessen?:   If the Whiteway gas chamber is shown to have
benn anywhere, I think it would change my life.

re the issue of gas chambers being in the old Reich or outside the old
Reich: I'm saying that I don't believe the Whiteway gas chamber was either
in or out, over or under, to one side or the other. Maybe I'm wrong. Where
was it and how do we know?




Article 14758 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:40:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3242di$qc2@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <323u7l$15m@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <323u7l$15m@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re every eyewitness to the gassing chambers being a liar and every
document relating to gassing chambers being fraudulent:  why not keep
focused?  Where is the eyewitness testimony that collaborates Whiteways'
about his gas chamber. What documentary proof collaborates the Whiteway
gas chamber?

If you don't want to talk about the Whiteway gas chamber, let's drop it.
That's what I invited you guys to talk about. I'm not ragging on you for
the way you're carrying on other exchanges. Do what you want.


Article 14760 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:43:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 6
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3242j6$qec@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

re Berenbaum quoting Whiteway:  I posted the entire text several days ago.
I suppose most everybody got it other than yourself. But then, you can't
get it all, can you Barry?


Article 14761 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:45:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3242mv$qg7@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <323upf$1a3@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <323upf$1a3@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

Michael:

I'm asking what proof there is that the Whiteway gas chamber existed. If
you don't want to talk about that, I'll talk to others.


Article 14762 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:48:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3242si$qio@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <323vep$1k4@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <323vep$1k4@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re the Lispstadt book "Denying the Holocaust:" yes, she has an entire
chapter based on what I've been doing with the Campus Project. I'm not
sure that she addressed anything specific I have ever said. If she did,
that is one other thing that I would feel obligated to discuss.


Article 14764 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 21:52:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <324341$ql9@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

Re Whiteway:

He was still living early this year. He appears to live in the New England
area. I've spoken with him on radio, perhaps two years ago, in New England
someplace but I don't recall which station. He gave an interview to the
Brandeis Justice, one of the student newspapers at that campus, probably
in January 94. I had a copy of the interview but have misfiled it. If you
come up with it I'd like to have a copy; if I find it I'll fax a copy to
you.

It's possible that the Brandeis interview was in a student newspaper other
than the Justice. 


Article 14774 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conversations on Open Debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 23:17:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 6
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32483e$sro@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3246ob$41o@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <3246ob$41o@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re calling the Whiteway gas chamber a phoney:  it can be seen to suggest
that Whiteway is a liar. I don't like calling anyone a liar. Maybe there's
something about it I don't understand.


Article 14775 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 7 Aug 1994 23:27:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3248m9$t57@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Gordon McFee) writes:

re why I don't believe the gas chamber stories in general: it's big a
subject for me to get in here, at this time. Obviously I don't buy the
nazi document business relating to gassing chambers.

I will say that within the next couple, or few months, we (D&B
Productions) expect to release a video titled The Gas Chambers: A Look at
the Physical Evidence, which will answer that part of the story for you
rather completely, I should think. We'll see.

At the same time, I can say that my take on the gas chamber stories is
based on articles appearing in the Journal of Historical Review over a
period of some eleven years. You might want to take a run at them.

Meanwhile I'm asking what proof there is for ONE gas chamber: the one
claimed by Professor Michael Berenbaum in The World Must Know, based
perhaps solely on the testimony of Curtis Whiteway, who may not be wrapped
too tight.


Article 14776 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Bradley Smith
Date: 7 Aug 1994 23:30:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 9
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3248rq$3p@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3242ki$9op@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <3242ki$9op@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA>, misrael@csi.uottawa.ca (Mark
Israel) writes:

re documents refering to the Hadamar camp: Berenbaum said it "may have
been" Hadamar. I suppose we should talk about physical remains or wartime
generated documents that relate to the alleged gas chamber that Curtis
Whiteway rather loosely describes and that Berenbaum, despite his key
importance in representing the Holocaust Museum, takes apparently at face
value. Maybe he didn't.


Article 14777 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Bradley Smith
Date: 7 Aug 1994 23:35:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <324956$8m@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust:  I'm on Internet as an
individual so it will not be productive for you to insist that I do here
what I do through CODOH in other settings.

re your postings on Hadamar: why Hadamar? If you want me to read a lot of
postings, please post materials on the gas chamber Whiteway describes in
Berenbaum's quote in The World Must Know.  I have no present interest in
postings on Hadamar unless they relate to the subject--Whiteway's gas
chamber. 


Article 14778 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 7 Aug 1994 21:52:01 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <324341$ql9@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 04:41:09 GMT
Lines: 52


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>Re Whiteway:
>
>He was still living early this year. He appears to live in the New England
>area. I've spoken with him on radio, perhaps two years ago, in New England
>someplace but I don't recall which station. He gave an interview to the
>Brandeis Justice, one of the student newspapers at that campus, probably
>in January 94. I had a copy of the interview but have misfiled it. If you
>come up with it I'd like to have a copy; if I find it I'll fax a copy to
>you.

Ok, then why not phone him and ask him if he remembers more about this
than Berenbaum reports?

To be honest, I'd be curious why Berenbaum says it might be Hadamer,
that was an euthanasia facility and appears to have closed around
1941.

I don't have a lot on it tho, it's possible "closed" means "ceased
operation as an euthanasia facility and was put to other uses" but I
haven't found any reference to that in any lists of camps.

I suppose it's possible it was Flossenburg, Dora Mittlebau or perhaps
Niederhagan, those would be the closest camps to Giesen if that part
is correct (that he was near Giesen at all), of those probably Dora is
the closest (Sachenburg a bit to the east.)

Dora was the facility Werner Von Braun worked at, where they used
forced labor to develop the V-1 and V-2 rockets (among other things)
and was known for being a brutal place in general. I only have the
very short description of Dora from Yahil.

But that's speculation in re the Whiteway quote.

Another speculation is whether or not there were small camps, perhaps
just adjuncts of military facilities, where such things went on. I
don't know, but I will keep it in mind as I read further. All lists
and maps tend to focus on the big camps (Buchenwald, Maidenak, etc) as
if they were all there was. Perhaps, perhaps not.

I've seen reports from Allied troops of their entering small towns to
find "undesirables" (Jews, Gypsies, etc) being kept in town squares
and the like in makeshift barbed wire "camps" with as few as one
hundred or so prisoners, often in miserable conditions. I doubt you'll
find these in lists of camps.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14781 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet
From: Brian Harmon 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 94 00:55:20 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Aug7.195156.27891@galois.mit.edu> <323h6a$jk5@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com
X-To: BradleyRS 

BradleyRS  writes:
 
>re the possibility that the Whiteway gas chamber story is not true--does
>that mean that all gas chamber stories are false:  no, it doesn't. But if
>it can not be deomonstrated that Whiteway is telling us the truth about
>his gas chamber it goes to the point that each gas chamber story must be
>judged on its own merits.
>
>If the Whiteway gas chamber story is corrupt it goes to the merit of
>Professor Michael Berenbaum's work as an historian and perhaps to his
>character.  It would also go to the intellectual and ethical standards of
>the U.S. Holocaust Museum, for which Berenbaum speaks.
 
 
	Who cares?   Let's assume you're right in this one instance.  All
that you have done is make one historian look bad and point out one
historical error. Other than that, it has nothing to do with the millions
that died in the Reinhard camps, Auschwitz, massacres in eastern europe, etc.
 
 
>The Whiteway gas chamber accusation then leads from a witness, to an
>important historian, to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum and spreads on
>out through the various intellectual classes across the nation that never
>ask any of the questions revisionist ordinarily ask. From little acorns
>mighty oaks do grow.
 
 
	I think you're overestimating the effects of one small footnote in
Holocaust history.
 
Brian Harmon  
------
Human memory is the glue that bonds the massive physical evidence
into a coherent and unified history.     


Article 14782 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet
From: Brian Harmon 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Conversations on Open Debate
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 94 01:04:52 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References: <323jlj$omh@access3.digex.net> <323nil$m1v@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com
X-To: BradleyRS 

BradleyRS  writes:
 
>In article <323jlj$omh@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net
>(Michael P. Stein) writes:
>
>re the analogy business:  you have an interest in figuring things out
>"logically"  Nothing wrong with it. I don't want to start there. You can't
>have everthing the way you want it, Michael.
 
 
	Heaven forbid that Mr. Smith would have to figure things out logically!
 
	JUst remember don't let logic or the facts confuse you!!
 
	:) ;) :)
 
Brian Harmon  
------
Human memory is the glue that bonds the massive physical evidence
into a coherent and unified history.     


Article 14783 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 8 Aug 1994 01:12:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <324er2$2lv@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

re trying to run down Whiteway and interview him: perfectly reasonable
idea. My sense of things is that it wouldn't get anywhere. We couldn't get
through to one another at all when we were on radio. Plus, in the
interview he gave to Brandeis paper he told another story which I suppose
is a whopper, something about seeing a platter laden with Jewish penises
or something of the sort. It's all disappeared now of course. Anyway, he's
not for me and I have to think that I'm not for him. On the other hand I
recall his manner being sober and polite.

re other small gassing chamers around: Danny Kernen, I believe, faxed me a
list of ten or tweleve camps one of the first nights I was on Internet, I
down-loaded it, and when I make a little progress on the Whiteway gas
chamber I might (might) look into one of those that Kernen sent me. 

I've got too much on my plate to just banter.  I can't do very much more
than one story at a time, and don't much want to. I can't believe that
I've spent the most productive time of my entire day today doing the
Whiteway gas chamber on Internet. This is a hole I can see myself falling
into if I'm not careful. 


Article 14802 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 8 Aug 1994 23:10:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <326s2a$q5e@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , Brian Harmon
 writes:

re who cares about the Whiteway gas chamber story because it is only a
small footnote:  it's important because as the story is followed through
it will either show 1) that establishment historians are willing to make
any gas chamber accusation whatever because, as you suggest, they "don't
care," that is, they don't believe that the public taboo against
challenging gas chamber stories will protect them from having do defend
their accusations in academic journals, or 2) that  Whiteway told the
truth, that Berenbaum is not a fool, and that the Holocaust Musseum is not
corrupt.

Where was the Whiteway gas chamber, as promoted by the Holocasut Museum,
and how do we know?


Article 14803 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 8 Aug 1994 23:13:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <326s7t$q7d@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <325ork$jjq@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <325ork$jjq@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

Michael, stop being such a scold and so irritable and self righteous and
we might be able to have some more exchanges.


Article 14804 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 8 Aug 1994 23:15:12 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <326sc0$q9c@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3263d9$mdh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <3263d9$mdh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re is this the best I can do: yes it is. Where was the Whiteway gas
chamber and how do we know?


Article 14805 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 8 Aug 1994 23:25:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <326suf$qet@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3264au$n9p@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <3264au$n9p@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re my having mentioned The Leuchter Report in my article/advertisement
titled "The Holocaust Controversy: The Case for Open Debate," did I read
it closely and understand it, and do I know that Leuchter is a liar and
fraud:  yes I did refer to it;  I don't know that Leuchter is a liar  or
fraud (I suppose you're refering to the Shelly Shapiro stuff), and yes I
do understand the drift of the report but I do not understand the
chemistry or engineering.

I know there's been a lot of controversy over The Leuchter Report. I would
like to see anything that's been published in academic or professional
journals that you have access to. 


Article 14807 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!tinman.dev.prodigy.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 8 Aug 1994 23:30:10 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 9
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <326t82$qil@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <326ajs$2r7@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <326ajs$2r7@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
(Richard Schultz) writes:

re Davidowicz on Iriving mis-using a document: what was Irving's reply?
Did he reply?

Nearly all revisionist research is a critique of the establishment
literature. There's no end to the charge of mis-using documents.  Did
Berenbaum mis-use the Whiteway testimony?


Article 14808 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith and His Favorite Gas Chamber
Date: 8 Aug 1994 23:35:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <326th5$ql2@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3268dc$rb5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <3268dc$rb5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re how you would like me to debate the "major gas chambers:'  what's the
matter with you debating the major gas chambers and me asking if the
Whiteway gas chamber existed and if so where was it? Let a thousand
flowers bloom, Danny.


Article 14810 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 8 Aug 1994 23:10:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <326s2a$q5e@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 04:35:21 GMT
Lines: 54


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re who cares about the Whiteway gas chamber story because it is only a
>small footnote:  it's important because as the story is followed through
>it will either show 1) that establishment historians are willing to make
>any gas chamber accusation whatever because, as you suggest, they "don't
>care," that is, they don't believe that the public taboo against
>challenging gas chamber stories will protect them from having do defend
>their accusations in academic journals

No, you cannot make this generalization.

"The World Must Know" which you are citing is not an academic journal,
it's not refereed, the book has no academic standing. It's one of
those glossy little books with lots of pictures designed to be sold to
a very general public interest. It would be unfortunate if it
contained avoidable inaccuracies, but academics do not generally take
it upon themselves to correct bits and pieces of such works.

Besides, what forum would they use to express a correction in?

"The World Must Know" is a book, not a periodical, so you can't really
send in a "letter to the editor" (well, you could, but where would
they publish it?)

Professional journals are rarely interested in publishing corrigendum
of such "trade" works as they're called.

Perhaps some book review periodical would be interested, perhaps
they've already published something, have you looked? What reviews of
the book have you read?

How can you make blanket statements about what "establishment
historians" have or have not expressed?

Finally, have you ever considered that those people who might know
looked at it and said to themselves, ``oh yeah, the Whiteway quote,
that's a good one, totally true, glad Berenbaum used it''?

People don't often kill themselves to publish something like ``that
Whiteway quote on pg 6 of "The World Must Know" is correct''.

Once again you read all kinds of things into silence. This would be
more interesting if you actually knew something or had something to
add rather than just harping on what others haven't told you as if
there were this great conspiracy of silence, it's cheap and doesn't
fool many people. Go do some homework if you're interested and tell us
what you find.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14811 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 8 Aug 1994 23:25:03 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3264au$n9p@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <326suf$qet@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 04:38:48 GMT
Lines: 20


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>I know there's been a lot of controversy over The Leuchter Report. I would
>like to see anything that's been published in academic or professional
>journals that you have access to. 

Leuchter would first have to get his report published in an academic
or professional journal for it to be treated as such.

In academia being ignored is sufficient criticism.

Again this pattern of reading so much into silence. Ask 100 academics
if you don't believe me: In academia being ignored is an answer.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14842 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Leuchter Report
Date: 9 Aug 1994 16:18:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <328o9r$ckg@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3273qa$8f5@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <3273qa$8f5@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re the problems with The Leuchter Report:  I've know since the beginning
there were problems with it. On the other hand, I was not aware of any
similar report published on Auschwitz or Birkenau done by anyone else
before The Leuchter Report so I thought it worth the while to throw it in
the ring. 

If you come across reports on Leuchter or his subject published in a
scientific or professional journal I'd like to know about it.  Thanks for
the offer of the other materials by Harmon (?) but not now.

 


Article 14844 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 9 Aug 1994 16:39:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 36
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <328pha$cvp@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , golux@mcs.com (The only
Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) writes:

re what leads me to doube the Whiteway gas chamber:  very simple stuff.
I've familiarized myself with the gas chamber accusations over the last
ten years or so and have never heard of this one. My experience with those
who promote the gas chamber stories is that they promote every one of them
for everything they're worth.  For half a century, the Dachau "gas
chamber" has been promoted heavily. I've done some 300+ radio interviews
where caller after caller rings up the host to talk about the Dachau gas
chamber because, typically, the caller has seen it "with his own eyes." 

Just as the American military discovered the Dachau "gas chabmer, Whiteway
now says that the U.S. Military discovered the gassing chamber "near
Giessen."  The volkswagons hooked up to it and all. Yet I have never heard
of the Whiteway gas chamber from any other source than Whiteway. No
physical remains, no wartime generated documents, not even any photos of
the brave liberatores. 

I'm asking a question that any layman could ask. The question is based on
no expertise whatever, other than a familiarity with the way the promotion
is carried out. Where was the Whiteway gas chamber and how do we know?
It's a reasonable question. The questions appears to create considerable
frustration to the handful of people who appear most often here in
alt.revisionism. They don't want to look into it, which is fine with me,
but they act is if they want me to stop asking the question.

What are they afraid of. If the question has no significance, ignor it. If
it is a significant question, take a run at answering it. It may well turn
out that the question is not significant, for reasons touched on by you
and Shein and others. But why be upset with the fact that I want to ask
it, that I continue asking it, and not only is this forum either.

As I wrote someplace else, my decision has been to do one gas chamber at a
time. For maybe idiosyncratic reasons I have chosen the Whiteway gas
chamber. So where was it and how do we know?  


Article 14848 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: open debate
Date: 9 Aug 1994 16:51:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <328q7l$d6s@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , golux@mcs.com (The only
Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) writes:

re the Whiteway gas chamber being important to the advertisement
challenging the Holocaust Museum: it's dealt with in one paragraph in 20.

re retracting the core of all my previous published writings on this
issue: if it is demonstrated to me that the Whiteway gas chamber existed
it will change my life and the drift of everything I do around this
subject.  

Meanwhile, if it can not be demonstrated that the Whiteway gas chamber
existed, I will go on as before, asking nothing from anyone other than to
exchange ideas with a reasonable degree of good manners.


Article 14853 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Bradley Smith
Date: 9 Aug 1994 13:16:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 8
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <328dkk$9it@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article , golux@mcs.com (The only
Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) writes:

re evidence to disprove Whiteway's claim about his gas chamber: he makes
the accusation, he must provide collaborative proof.

re his mental state, which maybe I shouldn't have mentioned yet: I hope to
have something on her by the weekend to introduce this matter more fully.


Article 14854 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith, how consistent are your beliefs?
Date: 9 Aug 1994 13:18:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <328do9$9jk@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re Mark Weber's attitudes toward non-whites: I don't share them. However,
I don't believe in thought crimes.


Article 14855 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: re Smith on establishment historians
Date: 9 Aug 1994 13:27:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 8
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <328e9a$9nb@search01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re your question about my misrepresenting establishment historians with
regard to challenging the extablished Holocaust story:  this is an
interesting question. I believe I wrote that in an op-ed piece for a local
newspaper. I'll have to run it down. Maybe tomorrow I can get to it. I've
downloaded your message so I won't lose it.


Article 14856 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos, "Lobbies" and "Exploitation"
Date: 9 Aug 1994 13:29:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <328ecv$9o8@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3288l2$jb4@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <3288l2$jb4@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re using photos as evidence of gassing chambers, and evidence of Whtieway
gas chamber particularly:  no problem.

re the Holocaust "lobby:" ask me again, if you're in a good mood. 


Article 14862 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Standards of Proof
Date: 9 Aug 1994 23:05:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 4
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <329g57$jlo@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <328h6m$odo@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <328h6m$odo@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

corroborative: thanks


Article 14863 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question for Bradley Smith
Date: 9 Aug 1994 23:11:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <329ggf$jpv@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <328p0k$2ms@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <328p0k$2ms@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re Whiteway being obligated to prove his accusation: I guess he's not
obligated to prove anything.  I was careless there. If Berenbaum uses the
Whiteway accusation, the burden of proof is on Berenbaum. It's not nice to
accuse others of mass murder at a certain place with a certain weapon at a
certain time when you can't demonstrate it's true. One should maintain a
little reserve in that situation. In my view.

re your incredible level of anger and intolerance: where do you believe it
comes from? 


Article 14866 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos, "Lobbies" and "Exploitation"
Date: 9 Aug 1994 23:23:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <329h6q$k16@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <328pte$t37@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <328pte$t37@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re photos of Whiteway's gas chamber:  we don't have to suppose this and
that; let's see them.

re the term "Holocaust Lobby:"  in my work in trying to get a discussion
going on the Controversy I face an incredible array of opponents, led by
but not limited to, mainline Jewish organizations, primarily the ADL, AJC,
SWC, Hillel. The most important individuals representing the Lobby now in
are historians Lipstadt and Berenbaum.  That the core of what we, or I,
would call the Lobby. And of course the Holocaust Museum now being the
great center and showplace of the Lobby.  All support the concept of
intellectual freedom, but all work hard to suppress open debate on the
very things you guys talk about here on Internet.
 


Article 14867 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How Consistent Are Your Beliefs? (Part 2)
Date: 9 Aug 1994 23:26:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <329hcc$k2v@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <32902i$28c@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <32902i$28c@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re Brians paper on Zyclon-B: pass it on to me. I'll pass it by an
associate who is interested that business  right now.


Article 14868 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The standards of historians
Date: 9 Aug 1994 23:28:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <329hg1$k3m@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3294sf$3p6@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <3294sf$3p6@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

Re talking all around the Whiteway gas chamber but not having anything to
talk about: I have little, you have nothing. Let's wait a while here.


Article 14869 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ns.mcs.kent.edu!news.ysu.edu!malgudi.oar.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Leuchter Report
Date: 9 Aug 1994 23:45:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <329ifu$kdd@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <328s8d$67u@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <328s8d$67u@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re failings of Leuchter Report: I had to hand several years ago a report
that criticised his work on the crematories, and there has always been
criticism of the Report among revisionists. 

What caught my attention about Leuchter is that he took a run at doing
some work on the Zyclon-B issue that should have been done half a century
ago but apparently never was. 

The questions that interest me about the Leuchter affair are 

1) it appears that the greatest murder weapons of all time (the alleged
homicidal gassing chambers) had never been examined in any serious way by
engineers or scientists before Leuchter.  Have I been misled about that?

2) why the German State felt it necessary to arrest Leuchter as he was
preparing to be interviewed on German TV and jail him for 34 days and put
him to trial. (He says he was told that his crime was that his Report
"dishonored  the dead."

For what it's worth, Leuchter has called publicly for an international
commission or some body to examine the physical remains of the "gas
chambers" with the purpose of learning if they were used for mass murder.

I can't talk about the the science of The Leuchter Report itself.


Article 14876 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!nac.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: open debate
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 9 Aug 1994 16:39:06 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <328pha$cvp@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 07:49:52 GMT
Lines: 44


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>Just as the American military discovered the Dachau "gas chabmer, Whiteway
>now says that the U.S. Military discovered the gassing chamber "near
>Giessen."  The volkswagons hooked up to it and all. Yet I have never heard
>of the Whiteway gas chamber from any other source than Whiteway. No
>physical remains, no wartime generated documents, not even any photos of
>the brave liberatores. 

The only quote I've seen is the one from Berenbaum introducing
Whiteway's quote which you mentioned.

In that quote Berenbaum speculates that perhaps it was Hadamer, which
is near Giessen. I suppose one could convert this to: therefore he
claimed it was near Giessen. But what was clearly said was that
perhaps it was Hadamer, and by the way *HADAMER* is near Giessen. I
don't know if this is too subtle but it annoys me that you turn this
quote about like this.

Particularly when, in the quote you cite, it's *Berenbaum* speculating
that perhaps it was Hadamer, not Whiteway.

Now, I'd agree that it's likely Berenbaum derived this from other
information from Whiteway. But Berenbaum doesn't say that, he just
says that perhaps the gas chamber being mentioned was at Hadamer since
Whiteway can't remember.

It's also possible Berenbaum is surmising this only from Whiteway's
description, I assume Berenbaum has access to other materiels, and
Whiteway never suggested it was Hadamar.

So why do you say it was Whiteway who suggested it was (sic) near
Giessen? Is there other information you are basing this on? Or are we
still on the Berenbaum quote (which doesn't say that)?

There was also no mention of "volkswagens" in the quote you mentioned,
it just said automobiles. Again, are you working from other materiels?
If so, what?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14877 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!nac.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith, how consistent are your beliefs?
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 9 Aug 1994 13:18:01 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <328do9$9jk@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 08:00:23 GMT
Lines: 31


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re Mark Weber's attitudes toward non-whites: I don't share them. However,
>I don't believe in thought crimes.

I don't believe in thought crimes either. But if someone suggests that
the world would be better off with me dead or enslaved or whatever I
tend to view them suspiciously, how about you?

For someone who claims to fundamentally have an interest in some kind
of justice surrounding memories over 50 years old you certainly lose
interest in abstractions real fast when it's your colleague who is
involved.

Remember, if you can't give justice, you can't have justice. Period.

It's not something that only works when it suits your tastes.

Personally I think you've seriously discredited any moral high-ground
you pretend to with this one comment.

Hey, I don't share Berenbaum's "German hating" (as you describe it),
but I don't believe in thought crimes...

Stings, doesn't it?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14885 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Anti-German hate mongers
Date: 10 Aug 1994 10:31:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 74
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32aob7$d6@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <32a6cm$4u2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <32a6cm$4u2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

Re quoting me without quoting me about what I have said about Soviet
atrocities against Germans: I suppose it would be more helpful if you
would quote me. But don't bother this time for reasons below.

re your assertion that anyone who claims that Germans committed atrocities
against others is an "anti-German hate monger:"  this is so willfully
careless an assertion that it helps me make a decision that I have been
wrestling with the last few days.

First: I have always taken it as a given that Germans committed
"atrocities" against almost everyone during World War Two. You, literally,
have no idea what my sense of things is about any of this stuff--other
than that I do not believe the homicidal gas chamber stories.  On the one
hand there is no particular reason why you should know anything about me
other than my skepticism about the gas chambers, but there is every reason
for you to be aware that you don't know anything about me. I'm perfectly
aware, for example, that I know nothing about you other than your belief
in the alleged genocide of the Jews and your contempt and hostility for
revisionist theory and revisionists as individuals.

If I were to say one thing about German atrocites against anyone, let's
say German atrocities against Jews, it would be that they were German
atrocities. The obsessive and otherwise neurotic fixation in the American
mind on the atrocites of a foriegn people against a foriegn people is, in
my view, the way Americans evade serious public discourse about the
victims of American atrocities against foreign peoples and against our own
citizens. The Holocaust Museum is the most garrish and vulgar expression
of that misguided and hollow self-righteousness on the scene right now. 
The National Socialist German Workers Party was guilty of plenty but it's
gone half a century now. The Republican and Democratic parties however are
still with us and have between them committed one atrocity after another
from one end of the earth to the other for the last half century. I'm not
much interested in what nazis did five decades ago but I do have an
interest in what Democrats and Republicans have done decade after decade
once the nazis were obliterated, always using their obliteration of the
nazis as the morally legitimating factor in Demo-Publican atrocites. 

re our exchanges: While you would like to demonstrate that everything I
have ever said is wrong or mis-guided, I have no sense whatever that you
want to talk to me. I accept this. I don't expect to respond to your
postings again, or anyone elses', in the near future.

re Internet: this is the first time anywhere that I have found a place
where exterminationists will actually respond to revisionists. It would
seem that I would be very happy. But the exchange is so disorderly and
directionless, and moves in a sea of such bad blood, that it appears to me
to be largely a waste of time. Particularly without having any idea
whatever of how many people are reading the materials. While I read that
25 million people have access to Internet, there may be no more than
fifteen individuals reading alt.revisionism regularly.  With that in mind
I have decided I should try to figure out how to use this medium in some
way  that would be more beneficial to myself and to others. You won't like
what I do, but then you aren't going to like what I do in any case so
there's no reason why I should consider you one way or the other.
Nevertheless, being the sentimentalist I am, I will. 

PS:  for Barry Shein:  I zapped his last long communication about the
Whiteway gas chamber and Berenbaum's handling of it into the universe
someplace and don't have it. I would like Shein to know however that I
agree with the drift of the posting, which I thought sensible from
beginning to end.   
I had some small comment to make about one of his observations, but it was
of little consequence (this last phrase is for you, Danny. It's a straight
line. But I bet you saw it right away). I hope someone draws Shein's
attention to the present posting.

See ya in a week or two or three.

 




Article 14906 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Anti-German hate mongers
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 10 Aug 1994 10:31:03 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <32a6cm$4u2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <32aob7$d6@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 03:33:31 GMT
Lines: 60


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>PS:  for Barry Shein:  I zapped his last long communication about the
>Whiteway gas chamber and Berenbaum's handling of it into the universe
>someplace and don't have it. I would like Shein to know however that I
>agree with the drift of the posting, which I thought sensible from
>beginning to end.   
>I had some small comment to make about one of his observations, but it was
>of little consequence (this last phrase is for you, Danny. It's a straight
>line. But I bet you saw it right away). I hope someone draws Shein's
>attention to the present posting.

Yes, but I don't know which posting you are referring to
exactly. Perhaps it was this one:

--------------------

From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>Just as the American military discovered the Dachau "gas chabmer, Whiteway
>now says that the U.S. Military discovered the gassing chamber "near
>Giessen."  The volkswagons hooked up to it and all. Yet I have never heard
>of the Whiteway gas chamber from any other source than Whiteway. No
>physical remains, no wartime generated documents, not even any photos of
>the brave liberatores. 

The only quote I've seen is the one from Berenbaum introducing
Whiteway's quote which you mentioned.

In that quote Berenbaum speculates that perhaps it was Hadamer, which
is near Giessen. I suppose one could convert this to: therefore he
claimed it was near Giessen. But what was clearly said was that
perhaps it was Hadamer, and by the way *HADAMER* is near Giessen. I
don't know if this is too subtle but it annoys me that you turn this
quote about like this.

Particularly when, in the quote you cite, it's *Berenbaum* speculating
that perhaps it was Hadamer, not Whiteway.

Now, I'd agree that it's likely Berenbaum derived this from other
information from Whiteway. But Berenbaum doesn't say that, he just
says that perhaps the gas chamber being mentioned was at Hadamer since
Whiteway can't remember.

It's also possible Berenbaum is surmising this only from Whiteway's
description, I assume Berenbaum has access to other materiels, and
Whiteway never suggested it was Hadamar.

So why do you say it was Whiteway who suggested it was (sic) near
Giessen? Is there other information you are basing this on? Or are we
still on the Berenbaum quote (which doesn't say that)?

There was also no mention of "volkswagens" in the quote you mentioned,
it just said automobiles. Again, are you working from other materiels?
If so, what?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 14961 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: shruken heads etc.
Date: 14 Aug 1994 18:44:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32m6ng$ihk@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <32kiu3$677@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <32kiu3$677@search01.news.aol.com>, wolfrune1@aol.com
(WolfRune1) writes:

re shruken heads etc.:  you probably know about it but maybe not:  The
Holocaust: Made In Russia, edited by Carlos Whitlock Porter (Historical
Review Press, England, 1988) has photocopies of documents relating to some
of the items you mention. It also has a problem: I understand that while
most the IMT volumes referenced are U.S., some are British, so are "off" a
few pages perhaps in the U.S. volumes.

I can send you a copy if you like.




Article 15371 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOAH
Date: 26 Aug 1994 00:24:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33jqp7$8tc@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <33ij0e$q4r@prime.mdata.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <33ij0e$q4r@prime.mdata.fi>, kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari
Nenonen) writes:

re Shoah:  I did a little book several years ago -- Confessions of a
Holocaust Revisionist, Part I --  which has a chapter on the Bomba segment
in Shoah.  It criticises Bomba's eyewitness testimony. If you like I'll
send you a copy.


Article 15444 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines "anti-semite"
Date: 27 Aug 1994 12:11:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 44
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33noin$a10@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <33ifso$jam@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <33ifso$jam@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re the common joke about the definition of an antisemite:  It may be the
work of L.A. Rollins who published it in Lucefer's Lexicon in the late
1980s (Loompanics press, Ft Townsend Wa). I think he had it that an
antisemite is "any person dispised by Jews." It's a pretty good joke and
one that often is pretty much on the mark. You'll note he did not write
"the" Jews. Rollins, Loompanics et.al. are libertarians, anarchists and
skeptics so the joke was probably originated in that culture, not Mr.
Keren's nazi culture.

re most "revisionists" being antisemites. How would Mr. Keren prove this
accusation?  It looks like some 16,000 people logged on to alt-revisionism
during July 94.  How many were "revisionists," doubters, "deniers?"  Five
percent?  800? Judging others to be bigots because they doubt what you
believe is one good definition of what bigotry is. 

Judging most "revisionists" to be antisemites on the evidence of a dozen
or so individuals who log on to alt-revisionism expresses what is probably
a deeply held wish on the part of Mr Keren. There are literally millions
of  doubters, deniers and revisionists in America, Western Europe, the old
Soviet block and all over the rest of the world. Judging "most" of these
people to be antisemites, on the basis of the paltry evidence of a few
guys on alt.revisionism is itself the judgement of a bigot. 

For Mr. Keren it looks like an antisemite is anyone dispised by Mr. Keren.
Who does Mr. Keren dispise? Anyone who expresses doubt about what he
believes about the Holocaust story. Or who he believes might express
doubt.

Does Mr. Keren believe that making brainless and unprovable accusations
about others lessens or heightens antisemitism around the world? 

Does it occur to Mr. Keren that some part of the antisemitism that does
exist on the planet is the result of Jewish behavior, or does he believe
that all antisemitism is the result of a fundemental moral flaw in those
of us who are not Jews?

If the latter, I suppose that would explain, finally, why so many
Palestinians appear to have, shall we say, mixed feelings about Jews. 





Article 15483 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Smith distorts Mayer?
Date: 27 Aug 1994 21:53:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 8
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33oqlv$hq7@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

Jamie:

I blew the e-mail away again.

The Mayer quote is not in the text of my article "The Holocaust
Controversy: The Case for Open Debate (dated November 93)."  The text went
through several revisions.  I recall making the statement you're calling
into question, but I can't find it.  What are you quoting from?  Exactly?


Article 15519 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines "anti-semite"
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 27 Aug 1994 12:11:03 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <33ifso$jam@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <33noin$a10@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 21:58:12 GMT
Lines: 77


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>For Mr. Keren it looks like an antisemite is anyone dispised by Mr. Keren.
>Who does Mr. Keren dispise? Anyone who expresses doubt about what he
>believes about the Holocaust story. Or who he believes might express
>doubt.

Talk about wishful thinking; the hard evidence does not seem to back
up Mr Smith...I claim that the term "anti-semite" has only been used
here for the most disgusting and vicious cases as evidenced below, Mr
Smith is of course free to prove me wrong with his own documentation
and spare us his fantastic generalizations about what might be:


From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Date: 26 Jun 1994 21:39:11 -0400
>Mr Kaufman is obviously Jewish and a living example of why the Nazis 
>tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
>camps for the duration of the war.

From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Date: 21 Mar 94 09:45:48 -0500
>The Jew rules only through fear, an atmosphere of conscious and subconscious 
>terror permeating every facet of society generated by strategic planning, a 
>socially-caustic mix of money, myth, media, and manipulative politics being 
>the empowering dynamoes of the grand plan.
 ...
>I do not offer any apologies whatsoever for my beliefs.  I offer no apologies 
>for the expression of those beliefs on this group, or on alt.skinheads.  I 
>have revealed the heartfelt thoughts of a National Socialist with bold honesty

From: landpost@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Date: 24 Aug 1994 02:25:48 GMT
>I guess that's why I saw pictures of HillBilly holding hands with niggie
>boy Mandela with Jew Boy Joe Slovo

From: bergf@iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Date: 17 Jul 1994 01:49:55 GMT
>After reading Shein, can anyone really be surprised that the Germans 
>would people like him in concentration camps during WW2.  That is 
>precisely where people like him belonged--that is the only thing his 
>talmudic logic, his filthy sophistry, is ever able to prove.

>From Knight_Crusader@nile.com Sun Apr  3 16:45:25 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Date: Sat,  2 Apr 94 22:33:43 MST
>   After listening to the initial segment of Eye To Eye last night, I
>think we should consider digging mass graves for the Jews and queers
>in this country in preparation for the upcoming Jewish holocaust.
>   Up to this point in time only a few have warned us about the
>undesirabilness of Jews and queers in a humble society. Among these
>were Jesus and Hitler.  Hitler,of course, went to extremes to remedy
>the problem. But, today, the Jews and queers have another threatening
>exterminator; the Afro-American.

From: al998@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jason Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 1994 18:01:30 GMT
>	Nowhere did I denounce the killing of "Six Million" Jews.  I did
>point out, however, that I support revisionists.  Whether six million died
>or not, I frankly don't care.  If they did, good.  If they didn't, good.
>If six million died, that's six million less to deal with in the future.
>If they didn't die, then I'm not worried, because I've lived my entire life
>with those Jews around me.  I'll transport them to the island of Madagascar,
>or something.  I don't advocate killing them, but neither do I care if they
>die.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 15521 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines "anti-semite"
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 27 Aug 1994 12:11:03 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <33ifso$jam@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <33noin$a10@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 22:12:30 GMT
Lines: 55


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>If the latter, I suppose that would explain, finally, why so many
>Palestinians appear to have, shall we say, mixed feelings about Jews. 

This may come as a total shock to you but Islamic Palestinians no
doubt have mixed feelings about Christians whose name is Smith. But
then again 1,000+ years of Crusades against Islam has taken its toll
on public relations, of which the current situation in the Mideast is
only another chapter.

Or do you think Western Christianity is giving up the birthplace of
Christ and site of His Passion and Crucifixion easily? Think, Mr
Smith, all we ask is that you THINK. Over one thousand years of
history should provide some hint if you would simply pay attention to
the larger themes.

Then we have the many Palestinian Christians, but their status in
Western Christian branches (eg, Roman Catholic and Protestant) has
been shakey at best their being mostly either Coptic or Byzantine. No
doubt if they accepted fealty and abandoned their particular churches
things would be a lot more comfortable for Mr Smith's ilk.

But Jews? No, not really. The Palestinians are not half-stupid as you,
they generally understand the situation and aren't so fast to wash
your own guilt away, Mr Smith. You may have noticed the many
"anti-western" demonstrations and rallies, or specifically
anti-Israeli-govt. Yet missing in general are the expressions of sheer
anti-Jewishness. A clever boy, Mr Smith, might wonder about that.  And
vice-versa, people like Arafat may be disliked (or have been disliked)
in Israel (he is a Christian tho), but sheer anti-Islamic sentiment
would be hard for you to find. Of course, lacking that knowledge you
just assume it exists because it would suit your purpose.

But, worst of all, given the covey of racist hate-mongerers (we have
established that have we not Mr Smith) and self-proclaimed Nazis that
seem to surround this "revisionism" you support your stupid and
vacuous pleas on behalf of Palestinians and what they might feel
really falls flat. Most of the people that surround you refer to
people like Palestinians as "mud people" and other, nastier epithets.

You and yours don't give a shit about Palestinians except inasmuch as
you might find an occasional opportunity to rip one of their arms off
and bash in a Jew's head with it.

Just who in the fuck do you think you are kidding? Not I! Certainly
not Palestinians.

Try again.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 15545 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines "anti-semite"
Date: 29 Aug 1994 11:51:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 9
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33t05b$kov@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <33q73k$dep@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <33q73k$dep@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

Re whether some part of anti-Black racism is caused by Black behavior: I
would say it is--some part of it--just as some part of it has to do with
moral flaws in some non-Blacks--but I don't believe I am going to follow
up on the issue.  Not that it's not an important subject. There are many
important subjects we can discuss but the one I want to talk about on
alt.revisionism is the growing controversy over revisionism. 


Article 15546 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist defines "anti-semite"
Date: 29 Aug 1994 11:58:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 6
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33t0ic$kri@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <33qs08$8pf@prime.mdata.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com

In article <33qs08$8pf@prime.mdata.fi>, kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari
Nenonen) writes:

Re the suggestions that there is no Jewish behavior:  you're right. I
would have done better to have written the behavior of some, or many Jews,
depending on the situation.    


Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.