From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  1 15:33:44 PDT 1995
Article: 22959 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NO NO DELIBERATE STARVATION POLICY FOR INMATES
Date: 28 Jun 1995 06:18 MST
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    [posted and emailed, reply by post please]

>Jamie R. McCarthy  writes:
> 
>>In the second half, I pointed out that Hans Frank documented, in his
>>diary, exactly when it was decided by top Nazi officials to starve the
>>Jews and Poles.  In his diary entry for 24 August 1942, Frank took down
>>the minutes of the meeting:  "That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of
>>hunger should be noted only marginally."  And there are other
>>expressions of this statement (though none so explicit and in so few
>>words) -- all of which I presented with full context.

>This quote from Dr. Frank's diary is devastating not to the
>Revisionists, but to the anti-Revisionists.  According to the
>Exterminationists, Chelmno began operations on December 1941
>(this camp was outside of the General Government).  The camps
>of Belzec and Sobibor were in operation in early 1942.  The
>Treblinka camp began working several weeks before this entry by
>Dr. Frank was made.  If this entry by Dr. Frank is authentic,
>then there were no gas chambers at these camps, nor were there
>evacuations to the east.  What Dr. Frank should have said
>(to please both sides of the debate): "We do not need to
>feed 1.2 million Jews within our borders, since these people
>are being evacuated to the east."

    {sigh} Some days I wonder if there is a screen a denier basic training
    to make sure that no one there has passed a course in logic.

    If the entry by Dr. Frank is authentic, then why would that entry
    invalidate either gas chambers or evacuations to the East?

    Isn't it possible that there were different policies at different
    times?  Isn't it possible that there were different policies at the
    same time for different sub-groups of the population?

    Isn't it possible that Dr. Frank (rather than summarizing all
    comprehensive policy with this diary note) was merely commenting to
    himself on a new policy established that day?

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (520) 621-2932

       "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do..."  -- Joe Walsh


From rs241@delphi.com Sun Jul  9 00:04:04 PDT 1995
Article: 23320 of alt.revisionism
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From: rs241@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 95 18:49:35 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
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References: <1995Jun30.022859.998@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
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X-To: Jamie R. McCarthy 

 
 
 
 
>Our friend rs241 has decided to grace us with yet more insanity,
>illogic, and deliberate ignoring of information.  You'd think, after
>three years of dealing with deniers, I'd be used to this.
 
>I'll be combining a few of his articles here.
 
>He begins by writing:
 
  > The document NI-9912 does state that: "this irritant also has the
   >advantage of stimulating the respiration of insects."  It is
   >claimed by the manual that it has an advantage; it does not mean
   >that it would be disadvantageous to use it on lice without the
   >indicator.
 
>This absolutely transparent idiocy requires no comment.
 
 
 
What I find idiotic was one claim that the SS removed the irritant
(or indicator), because they wanted to hide the smell of the indicator
>from  the victims.  Do you think the smell of almond would make the
victims put their faces closer to the Zyklon?  I don't think so!
One, if the victims were locked in an air tight room; they could not
escape.  Two, if the SS were concerned about keeping this a secret,
they would not make an unusual order.
 
 
 
  > Also, many businesses's often emphasize the positive aspects of
  >their products, not the negative.  In other words, does an irritant
  > warn rodents; therefore giving these creatures a chance to escape
  > from a multiroom building should it not be sealed properly?
 
 
 
This was one of my ideas, I have a few others, but I feel it would be
worthless to post them since most people have failed to explain why the
removal would be necessary for the extermination of people.  None of
the historians that were quoted on that thread gave a reason, and none
of the posters had given a valid reason.
 
 
 
>Now Mr. rs241 expects us to believe that the Auschwitz SS were not
>murderers;  rather, they were serving as the R&D department for
>insecticide companies around the Reich.
 
 
 
This may come as a surprise, but the SS was located throughout Europe.
The five ton order referred to in Professor Hilberg's book did not
specify a destination for Auschwitz.  On page 570 of his original
version,  the Central Sanitation Depot of the Armed SS had received
50 tons of Zyklon B in 1943.  Twelve tons were distributed to
Auschwitz.  There were other grades of Zyklon, so I do not know if
this figure accidently contains the other grades.  The only two other
camps I have heard that used Zyklon B for the Extermination of people
were Majdanek and Neugamme.  I doubt if the remaining thirty eight tons
were sent to these two camps (maybe some, but not all).
 
 
 
>I stated in one article:
 
  > In his diary entry for 24 August 1942, Frank took down the
  > minutes of the meeting:  "That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die
  > of hunger should be noted only marginally."
 
 
 
 
Please read below:
 
 
#>In the second half, I pointed out that Hans Frank documented, in his
#>diary, exactly when it was decided by top Nazi officials to starve the
#>Jews and Poles.  In his diary entry for 24 August 1942, Frank took down
#>the minutes of the meeting:  "That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of
#>hunger should be noted only marginally."  And there are other
#>expressions of this statement (though none so explicit and in so few
#>words) -- all of which I presented with full context.
 
 
 
This is the quote from your article that I had responded to.  I did
not respond to your original article, but to your response to a response.
As you can see, I did leave the impression to the reader that there is
more to the subject.
 
 
 
>Mr. rs241 replied:
 
  > This quote from Dr. Frank's diary is devastating not to the
  > Revisionists, but to the anti-Revisionists.  [...]  If this entry
  > by Dr. Frank is authentic, then there were no gas chambers at these
  > camps, nor were there evacuations to the east.  What Dr. Frank
  > should have said (to please both sides of the debate): "We do not
  >need to feed 1.2 million Jews within our borders, since these
  > people are being evacuated to the east."
 
>This is so demanding as to be bizarre.  Previously, Mr. Raven has
>bewildered us all by insisting that any captured Nazi document which
>mentions the extermination program also mention the gas chambers, else
>he will not consider it.  Now, Mr. rs241 is telling us that any document
>which mentions the Nazi policy of not giving food to the Jews must also
>mention the Nazi policy of exterminating same outright, else the
>extermination policy did not exist!
 
 
 
Who says that I consider this document as being authentic?
 
 
 
>By this measure, every captured Nazi memo should have letterhead which
>reads "From the desk of ____, member of the Third Reich, a nation which
>is deliberately attempting to exterminate European Jews through a
>variety of means including, but not limited to, gas chambers."
 
 
 
No not really, but I do find that there are a lot of missing pieces
in the puzzle of World War II.  For example, I find very few references
to the last commandant of Auschwitz Richard Bdr (or Baer).  According
to a New York Times article on December 21, 1960 he was arrested on
December 20, and  the article claimed he was the last commandant of
Auschwitz.  He was charged on May 3, 1963 and he died on June 18,
1963.  According to some Revisionists, he had made claims that the
gas chambers were a myth.  I cannot find any English (non-revisionist)
sources for this statement, but I find very few references to this
man in non-Revisionist books.  Some Revisionists claim he was murdered
or infer  that he was murdered.  That may be a rumor.  Professor
Hilberg does not claim (in the original version) that he was the
commandant of this camp, but of Auschwitz I.  He claims that Rudolf
Hvss returned on May 1944, but does not give a departure date.  In
the second version, he claims Hvss came back May 1944 and left again
on June 1944 with Richard Bdr taking control of the camp afterwards.
Now since this man was in German custody for two and a half years,
and if he was commandant of the entire Auschwitz complex since May
1944, I can only guess that the German police have interrogated him
not once but several times.  So far, I have heard nothing of this
man on this usenet or very little in standard history books on the
Final Solution.
 
 
 
>But the even more bizarre part is that the quote, AS I POINTED OUT IN MY
>ORIGINAL ARTICLE, was followed shortly thereafter by a reference to,
>quote, "the directive for the annihilation of the Jews."  That reference
>was made later in Frank's entry for the SAME DAY.
 
 
 
 
The entry by Dr. Frank (the quote were he said: "the directive for
the annihilation of the Jews")  was not made on on August 24, 1942,
but on December 9, 1942.  On page 581 Volume XXIX of the blue series,
it does say that.  The English translation of the red series Volume
IV page 902 does not give a date, but there are asterisks separating
the the paragraph of December 9, 1942 and the selected paragraphs of
August 24, 1942.  Also, at the end of the August 24 entries it says:
"End of the meeting:1640 hrs."
 
 
 
On the article I had responded  to you (but did not quote this
portion) it was written:
 
 
 
#To top things off, Mr. Roberts finishes his article by responding to
#a particularly brutal section of Frank's diary.  The diary reads:
 
#   It is clear that the working program is made difficult when in the
#   middle of the program, during the war, the order for complete
#   *annihilation* of the Jews is given.  The responsibility for this
#   cannot be placed upon the government of the General Government.
#   The directive for the *annihilation* of the Jews comes from higher
#   quarters.
 
#Mr. Roberts responds:
 
#   *Annihilation*  I guess without seeing the document that the word is
#   ausrottung [root out/uproot.]
 
#Well, first of all, Mr. Roberts, "Ausrottung" does not mean "uproot,"
#though the two words are cognate.  It means to destroy a living thing,
#to kill it.  I can suggest a dozen dictionaries which will verify this
#(and I'm not exaggerating -- probably more than a dozen).
#
#But, second of all, the German word is not "ausrotten," it's
#"vernichten."  Unluckily for you, Mr. Roberts, I just happen to have
#visited the library last night and checked out that exact volume of the
#Blue Series.  Volume 29, p. 582:
 
#   Es ist klar, dass der Arbeitsprozess erschwert wird, wenn mitten in
#   dieses Arbeitsprogramm des Krieges der Befehl kommt, alle Juden
#   sind der Vernichtung anheim zu stellen.  Die Verantwortung hierfuer
#            ^^^^^^^^^^^
#   trifft nicht die Regierung des Generalgouvernements.  Die Weisung
#   der Judenvernichtung kommt von hoeherer Stelle.
#      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
#The German noun "Vernichtung" means "annihilation" -- it's as close a
#translation as any word can be.
 
 
 
Now the "SELECTED QUOTES" I have used does not state that you had
looked at page 581.  Therefore it would be wrong to accuse you of being
dishonest, ignoring vital information, being insane, being idiotic, or
being illogical.  If you had, I still wouldn't say it.
 
 
>Here is a full quote of my original article:
 
  > p. 900:
 
      >In whatever difficulties you observe some place here, in the form of
      >the sicknesses of your workers, the breakdown of your associations,
      >etc., you must always think of the fact that it is still much
      >better when a Pole breaks down than that a German succumb.  That we
      >sentence 1.2 million Jews to die of hunger should be noted only
      >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      >marginally.  It is a matter, of course, that should the Jews not
      >starve to death it would, we hope, result in a speeding up of
      >anti-Jewish measures.
 
 
 
Please turn to page 580 Volume XXIX,  the German version of this speech
contains ellipsis.  These ellipsis may have been part of the original
document, but I don't believe so since document 2233-PS does not contain
the complete text of Dr. Franks Diary.  Instead it contains extracts of
statements that Dr. Frank (and others) have made during the war years.
What I find interesting is that Hans Frank has made a direct reference
to killing people (Hungertod) via starvation (a specific weapon), and
he had given a specific number.  I find it strange that he should be
so blunt about killing people via starvation, but be vague with
regarding anti-Jewish measures.  Also if one read various books on the
Final Solution, it is claimed that many people were being killed through
gas chambers during that time of year.  On page 112 of Martin Gilbert's
The Macmillan Atlas Of The Holocaust, it is claimed that 250,000 Jews
were killed in the various camps in the first half of August (not all
were from the General Government).  Now I don't have evidence that Hans
Frank was aware of the details of the deportations, but I think he would
have been interested on this subject.  According to Mr. Neumann's speech
(which is part of the August 24, 1942 diary):
 
 
 
"Proposed resettlement projects, such as are planned according to reports
>from  the Department Leaders of Lemberg and Lublin, must in my opinion be
postponed, for the sake of a frictionless procurement and effecting of
the harvest for the coming year."  (VOLUME IV page 898  red series)
 
 
 
This statement does not refer to Jews specifically, and I do not believe
it is referring to them indirectly,  since Germans were being resettled
in Western Poland which was incorporated into the German Reich, and
Poles were resettled into the General Government from Western Poland,
plus Poles were shipped to Germany as laborers.  This statement could
mean anything.
 
 
 
I have read the partial (yes it does say partial) English translation
of Hans Frank's diary for that particular day.  Dr. Frank was commenting
on the critical food situation occurring that year.  Hans Frank at that
time took an us or them policy.  It may sound ugly, but that's war for
you (for your information the final solution was an event during World
War II, not the other way around).  While the Soviets retreated in
1941, they had used scorched earth policy as a tactic.  They burned
fields, killed livestock, etc. (Didn't the Soviets realize this may
affect the civilian population in those areas?  YES they did since their
ultimate goal was victory)  How this affected  Europe in 1942 is unknown
since so much of the history of WWII is biased.  I believe the weather
did not prove to be favorable to agriculture for that year (1942) as
well.  Since his diary entries are incomplete (based on 2233-PS), I
cannot base my conclusions on inaccurate evidence.  If he did say those
words, it could have been hyperbole.  There were massive deaths due
to starvation in the Warsaw Ghetto (based on Mr. Gilbert's atlas) prior
to this speech.  If he had made this speech in August 1941 or 1940,
then there may  have been some truth to these words since there seemed
to be an enormous death rate in the ghettos prior to his speech.  What
I find amazing is Dr. Frank didn't mention this in his presentation.
If Europe had an enormous amount of foodstuffs to distribute, maybe
the National Socialists would have distributed it properly, but that
is all hypothetical.  Since this speech was made in August of 1942,
it does not match the events (deportations) as presented by post-war
historians.
 
 
 
Also another detail you had forgotten to include, what date was this
policy going to take effect.  According to Mr. Neuengamme (YOU HAD
QUOTED HIM ON YOUR ORIGINAL ARTICLE BUT YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT
THOSE WERE HIS WORDS NOT DR. FRANK'S) page 896 Volume IV red series,
he did not give a specific timetable.  Below that quote he gave a time
table for non-German normal consumers.   On page 901 Volume IV, it is
written: "The Governor General then declared that it was left to a
coming conference of the authoritative factors of the government of
the General Government to take measures against the results of the
present decision.  The results would, to be sure, first take effect
at the beginning of next year, since the old rations were valid until
the end of this year."  I don't believe you had used this last quote
in YOUR ORIGINAL ARTICLE.  You had forgotten to include the third
paragraph of page 895 Volume IV in YOUR ORIGINAL ARTICLE.  If this
statement, applied to Jews as well, then this would invalidate the
deportations, since according to Martin Gilbert, the National Socialists
exterminated 250,000 Jews in the first half of August of 1942 (this figure
does contain people outside of the General Government).  They could
possibly kill and dispose of one million people in just two months now
couldn't they.
 
 
 
   >I point out incidentally that the document ends with very explicit
   >reference to the Final Solution:
 
   >p. 902:
 
     > Not unimportant manpower has been taken from us in form of our old
     > proven Jewish communities.  It is clear that the working program is
     > made difficult when in the middle of the program, during the war,
     >the order for complete annihilation of the Jews is given.  The
     >responsibility for this cannot be placed upon the government of the
     >General Government.  The directive for the annihilation of the Jews
     >comes from higher quarters.
 
 
I have already explained this; this was not part of the August conference.
 
 
 
>Finally, Mr. rs241 asks us about Commandant Kramer.  Kramer, recall, was
>sent very late in the war from his post at Auschwitz to command the
>Belsen camp.  We are asked:
 
   > If Commandant Kramer had intent to commit murder via starvation, why
   >didn't he cremate the corpses?  He was commandant of Birkenau
   >during his career.  It has been alleged that this camp was
   >murdering and cremating people (via furnaces and burning pits). The
   >logic used by non-Revisionist historians was to cover-up the crime.
   >Why the sudden change in policy?  Couldn't he obtain fuel from the
   >panzer school?
 
>Lack of fuel is entirely possible.  By 1945, after months of Allied
>concentration on German oil refineries and storage plants, the Nazis
>didn't have enough fuel to fly any but the most-critical airplanes, much
>less to cremate bodies.
 
 
 
So is the lack of food possible, and what the food they had was
allocated to the military first, civilians second, and the
prisoners last.
 
 
 
>Kramer was sent to Belsen to retain as much control as possible over a
>totally chaotic situation.  The camp held 15,000 prisoners in January
>1945, but the Nazis just kept shipping prisoners there.  Its population
>by April 1945 was 60,000, far more than it was designed to hold.
>Obviously the withholding of hundreds of tons of food from the starving
>inmates was criminal;  it was murder.  Just as obviously, it was not the
>same kind of murder as the construction of gas chambers and ovens in
>Auschwitz in 1942.  At Belsen, death came because of Nazi policy which
>forbade action to feed the "sub-humans" in the maelstrom of the
>disintegrating civilization -- not much thought was given to hiding the
>crime, as most Germans at the time were busy just trying to stay alive.
>But at Auschwitz, at the height of German power, it was carefully
>planned out down to the elimination of the corpses by burning.
 
 
 
Many of these prisoners came from Auschwitz.  If the killing machine
was so efficient they could have kept one chamber open by January of
1945 and kill off the prisoners in ten days.  Also, who gave the order
to Commandant Kramer telling him not to destroy the corpses?
 
 
 
>(The incineration of the corpses, Mr. rs241, was partly to hide the
>evidence and partly for sanitation's sake.  Burying tens of thousands of
>human beings causes horrible putrefaction, which poisons not only the
>air but the water table as well.  Besides, there wasn't enough room to
>bury everyone killed at Auschwitz -- the huge ditches would hold
>"merely" hundreds of thousands of bodies.)
 
 
 
I recall a new report of President Clinton's visit to Babi Yar.
The news report claimed that over 100,000 people were shot and
buried there, some people claim that 35,000 people were killed.
I believe two years later the National Socialists had these graves
opened and the bodies destroyed through fire (if you believe the
accounts of certain journalists or historians).  Where the National
Socialists concerned about the water table in the Ukraine?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


From rs241@delphi.com Sun Jul  9 00:04:10 PDT 1995
Article: 23324 of alt.revisionism
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From: rs241@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben removed 'indicator' from gas
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 95 18:55:10 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 74
Message-ID: 
References:  <3t5aoc$p3m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1b.delphi.com
X-To: HMazal 

HMazal  writes:
 
>
>Do tell us, please, (whether you are interested or not) why should DEGESCH
>have produced two versions of this product? You are only surmising that it
>may have been removed to make it easier to kill rats that might have
>otherwise escaped upon smelling the irritant. 
>
 
 
 
 
Of course I am only surmising.  In all the quotations that have
appeared on this thread, no one has explained why it was necessary
to remove the indicator if it was used to kill people.
 
 
>Rats?  There is no mention of a need to kill rats anywhere in my modest
>library. Zyklon was used in great quantities to kill lice, so that the
>clothing 'liberated'  from Jews and others would be usable in the outer
>world.  Rats would have presented no problems in this case. If lice were
>the principal target of Zyklon-B, why remove an irritant that would also
>accellerate their breathing and hence their demise?
 
I had consulted my modest library as well; there are few references
to the use of Zyklon-B from non-revisionist sources.  I have seen
a facsimile of the of the war-time (NI-9912) manual in Jack Ketch's
Made in Russia: The Holocaust pages 368-382 (the English translation
{by Dorothea L. Galewski} and the German), and the post-war facsimile
located in the Leuchter Report pages 135-162.  Both of these manuals
do not use the phrase Zyklon-B, but a general term Zyklon.
 
Document NI-9912, does not seem to have been issued by DEGESCH firm,
but instead by the Health Institution of the Protectorate Bohemia
and Moravia in Prague.  Whether or not this document is an exact
verbatim of the DEGESCH manual or a summary is unclear.  Zyklon is a
brand name for Hydrogen Cyanide, so the fact that it appears on the
document does indicate that the H.I.P.B.M copied most if not all from
the original source.  The English translation does have a section on
the effects on "warm-blooded animals."  It does not specify rodents,
but it does warn on the effects on human beings.  It also states the
birds (I didn't know they had bird cages in the delousing chambers)
and fish (I didn't know they had aquariums in the delousing chambers)
are susceptible to prussic acid.  On part two at the end of this section
that states the addition of irritant does not minimize the poisonous
effects of the acid.  On part seven number 2 and the first sentence
of part nine, it does use the word English word Vermin.  The word in
English can be applied to rodents, but I cannot locate the German word
schddlinge in my dictionary.  Therefore, I do not feel I should contest
the translation.  The post war manual of DEGESCH does  mention rodents
on page 4 (page 139 of the Leuchter Report), but this is a post war
document so I guess that invalidates that.
 
 
 
>Please try again.
 
 
I have a few other ideas as to why this indicator or irritant
would be removed.  They may even support the exterminationist thesis.
I wouldn't mind posting them, but unfortunately no one on this thread
was able to provide a source for the "REASON" that it was removed in
order to help in killing human beings.  All that was written was that
the SS placed an order for Zyklon-B without the indicator, no reason
is given, as well as no destination.  One person claimed that it was
to disguise the smell.  Another person claimed that gas mask filters
may not work.  Both of these ideas, I find unacceptable.  The one
idea that I did put forward may not be the valid reason, but because
of the lack of information available or a direct reason given by
non-revisionist historians, I can only rely on guesses or
conjectures.
 
 
 


From bzs@world.std.com Sun Jul  9 00:04:45 PDT 1995
Article: 23360 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
In-Reply-To: rs241@delphi.com's message of Wed, 5 Jul 95 18:49:35 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1995Jun30.022859.998@hobbes.kzoo.edu> 
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 04:04:29 GMT
Lines: 79


From: rs241@delphi.com
>  > Also, many businesses's often emphasize the positive aspects of
>  >their products, not the negative.  In other words, does an irritant
>  > warn rodents; therefore giving these creatures a chance to escape
>  > from a multiroom building should it not be sealed properly?
> 
> 
> 
>This was one of my ideas, I have a few others, but I feel it would be
>worthless to post them since most people have failed to explain why the
>removal would be necessary for the extermination of people.  None of
>the historians that were quoted on that thread gave a reason, and none
>of the posters had given a valid reason.

Ok, how do your read the following internal Nazi memo from Dr Becker:

  "Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
  as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
  not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
  opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
  Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
  gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
  aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
  do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

In particular, "the enormous psychological ... damage this work can do
to the men..."

So assume that the irritant, which was designed to be so noxious that
even if you had no idea what it was you'd run the other way long
before the levels of cyanide became harmful, were still in the
Zyklon-B. You'd have quite a period of screaming, tortured-sounding
people. Cyanide, in its pure form, is not very recognizeable, just an
almond-smell. And by the time you can smell it you're probably within
a few breaths of losing consciousness and dying.

Also, what about emptying the gas chambers rapidly? They didn't air
them out like one might a ship's hold, overnight etc. Might the
irritant have been too much for others to work around?

Remember, it was *designed* to make you run the other way even in tiny
quantities. That was the point, it didn't rely on your recognizing the
odor of the irritant (unlike, say, mercaptan, the sulfrous odor they
add to home cooking/heating gas which is merely meant to be an
unambiguous indicator you're supposed to recognize), it just made you
want to get away.

I could imagine that being rather inconvenient when, eg, removing and
disposing of the corpses etc. Cyanide would blow away when the room
was aerated, it doesn't particularly cling to clothing etc (tho I'd
use gloves or wash my hands really well, but that's the limit of it,
it doesn't go thru your skin, I've worked with cyanide), but almost
any amount of such a strong irritant would be a processing problem at
every step.

>I recall a new report of President Clinton's visit to Babi Yar.
>The news report claimed that over 100,000 people were shot and
>buried there, some people claim that 35,000 people were killed.

The Einsatzgruppen who did the murdering reported back to headquarters
the following:

  Einsatzgruppe C
  Standort Kiev

  In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
  Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
  33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From bzs@world.std.com Sun Jul  9 00:04:48 PDT 1995
Article: 23361 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben removed 'indicator' from gas
In-Reply-To: rs241@delphi.com's message of Wed, 5 Jul 95 18:55:10 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3t5aoc$p3m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
	
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 04:12:46 GMT
Lines: 48


From: rs241@delphi.com [responding to Harry Mazal]
>>Do tell us, please, (whether you are interested or not) why should DEGESCH
>>have produced two versions of this product? You are only surmising that it
>>may have been removed to make it easier to kill rats that might have
>>otherwise escaped upon smelling the irritant. 
>>
> 
> 
>Of course I am only surmising.  In all the quotations that have
>appeared on this thread, no one has explained why it was necessary
>to remove the indicator if it was used to kill people.
 
As I said in another note, it was a very strong irritant designed to
make you want to run the other way in even tiny quantites (ie, long
before the cyanide it was protecting you against became a danger.)

I can think of a few reasons why to remove it. But the most compelling
to me is that this irritant was probably a problem in processing the
bodies after they were dead.

Another is that, referring to Dr Becker's warning to
SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff about the problems with morale in troops
involved in gassings, this made the process a bit "quieter", the
irritant would no doubt prompt screams of anguish (that was its
design, after all) long before poisonous levels of cyanide were
attained (again, that was the irritant's purpose, to make you get the
hell away from the stuff.) I can imagine that becoming a morale
problem among troops who had to supervise etc the extermination
process.

As has been pointed out before, just slitting people's throats
would've been a fairly efficient and very cheap way to kill the
prisoners (consider how a livestock slaughterhouse operates.)

But it does seem the Nazis wanted a more sterile, hands-off method of
killing. I think it's reasonable to surmise that even battle-hardened,
propaganda crazed troops would quickly sicken of, eg, slitting throats
all day.

etc.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From dkeren@world.std.com Sun Jul  9 00:57:18 PDT 1995
Article: 23381 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <1995Jun30.022859.998@hobbes.kzoo.edu> 
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:02:15 GMT
Lines: 19

rs241@delphi.com writes:
 
# For example, I find very few references
# to the last commandant of Auschwitz Richard Bdr (or Baer).  According
# to a New York Times article on December 21, 1960 he was arrested on
# December 20, and  the article claimed he was the last commandant of
# Auschwitz.  He was charged on May 3, 1963 and he died on June 18,
# 1963.  According to some Revisionists, he had made claims that the
# gas chambers were a myth.
 
Baer was supposed to be tried in the big "Auschwitz Trial" in
Frankfurt. I recall that he never denied the gas chambers, just
claimed they were in Auschwitz II (Birkenau) and he was not
responsible for them. I'll check this out later today and post.
 
 
 
-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Fri Jul 21 05:03:21 PDT 1995
Article: 23987 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <1995Jun30.022859.998@hobbes.kzoo.edu>  <1995Jul6.110604@miavx1> 
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:48:41 GMT
Lines: 18

rs241@delphi.com writes:

# If Richard Baer was the last commandant of the Auschwitz complex
# (depending on one's sources) he may have left a paper trail.  I am
# quite sure something revealing is located in there.  Why wasn't
# anything turned over by the Soviet?  Are they still typing up
# documents?  Since he was captured by the West Germans, he must have
# been interrogated.  I have not seen any references to any
# interrogations in most history books.

Baer is mentioned in "Nazi Mass Murder" (Yale University Press, 1993)
and in some other books. He was supposed to be tried in the Frankfurt
Auschwitz trial in 1963. Baer claimed that he was not in charge of
Birkenau and therefore is not to blame for the mass gassings that
took place there.


-Danny Keren.


From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 22 16:32:02 PDT 1995
Article: 24064 of alt.revisionism
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 23:31:50 GMT
Organization: InfoText Manuscripts
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Reply-To: A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk
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X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29

In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

> He said that he wasn't guilty of the gassings, as they took
> place in Auschwitz II (Birkenau) when he was in charge
> of Auschwitz I.

I see, there were gassings but I knew nothing about them. Sounds familiar.
I'll have to recheck Staeglich when I get the chance but I'm fairly certain
he denied them per se.

-- 
Alexander Baron

"He who cannot reason is a fool; he who will not is a bigot; he who dare
not is a slave." - W. Drummond


From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 23 17:09:33 PDT 1995
Article: 24064 of alt.revisionism
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From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 23:31:50 GMT
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In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

> He said that he wasn't guilty of the gassings, as they took
> place in Auschwitz II (Birkenau) when he was in charge
> of Auschwitz I.

I see, there were gassings but I knew nothing about them. Sounds familiar.
I'll have to recheck Staeglich when I get the chance but I'm fairly certain
he denied them per se.

-- 
Alexander Baron

"He who cannot reason is a fool; he who will not is a bigot; he who dare
not is a slave." - W. Drummond


From rs241@delphi.com Sun Jul 23 19:15:09 PDT 1995
Article: 24164 of alt.revisionism
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From: rs241@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 20:24:11 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
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X-To: Raskolnikov 

Raskolnikov  writes:
 
>Mx rs241,
>
>  There are records of the indicator being removed,
>  even your denier pals know admit this.
>
>  Degesch was rather upset when the order was sent out
>  to remove the indicator, as that indicator was the 
>  key ingredient to their patent on Zyklon B.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Exactly what date did the DEGESCH officials remove the entire
indicator.  The sources used by Professor Hilberg were in the
Spring-Summer of 1944.  Neither he nor Mr. Borkin had given an
exact date as to when the production of Zyklon-B without the
indicator began nor why.
 
 
>Simple:
 
  > the smell of cyanide is non-irritating and rather
  > mild.  You might not notice what is going on if your
  > gas mask has a leak.  The indicator is an irritant
  >that lets you know that you're being exposed.
 
  > WHy remove such an obvious safety feature that would warn
  > people of exposure if the gas was merely for delousing
  > purposes?
 
Maybe you should look at the errata page in Mr. Pressac's book.
He gives a different opinion.
 
>Twelve tons of Zyklon B??  twelve *tons??*
>
>What on earth could they possibly need that much for?
 
 
Well according to Mr. Pressac (page 15 of Auschwitz Technique .  .  .),
he claimed that 95% was used for delousing.  Professor Hilberg (The
Destruction of the European Jews original edition page 570) claims
that most was used for gassing people, and said that the quantities
ordered were not large.  You have two different opinions from the
exterminationist side.  There were forty camps that were part of
Auschwitz [Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret page 22 {Although
he use the word branch which could mean just an office, I have
heard through other sources that there were more than three
Auschwitzs.  They may not have had the name of Auschwitz IV etc.,
but they were part of the Auschwitz complex}]  The three most famous
were located near or on swampy land.  This area may have had more
problems with insects and other creatures.
 
 
>> No not really, but I do find that there are a lot of missing pieces
>> in the puzzle of World War II.  For example, I find very few references
>> to the last commandant of Auschwitz Richard Bdr (or Baer).
>[..]
>> Professor
>> Hilberg does not claim (in the original version) that he was the
>> commandant of this camp, but of Auschwitz I.
 
>Auschwitz I was a part of Auschwitz.
 
BELOW IS THE THE COMPLETE QUOTE:
 
#No not really, but I do find that there are a lot of missing pieces
#in the puzzle of World War II.  For example, I find very few references
#to the last commandant of Auschwitz Richard Bdr (or Baer).  According
#to a New York Times article on December 21, 1960 he was arrested on
#December 20, and  the article claimed he was the last commandant of
#Auschwitz.  He was charged on May 3, 1963 and he died on June 18,
#1963.  According to some Revisionists, he had made claims that the
#gas chambers were a myth.  I cannot find any English (non-revisionist)
#sources for this statement, but I find very few references to this
#man in non-Revisionist books.  Some Revisionists claim he was murdered
#or infer  that he was murdered.  That may be a rumor.  Professor
#Hilberg does not claim (in the original version) that he was the
#commandant of this camp, but of Auschwitz I.  He claims that Rudolf
#Hvss returned on May 1944, but does not give a departure date.  In
#the second version, he claims Hvss came back May 1944 and left again
#on June 1944 with Richard Bdr taking control of the camp afterwards.
#Now since this man was in German custody for two and a half years,
#and if he was commandant of the entire Auschwitz complex since May
#1944, I can only guess that the German police have interrogated him
#not once but several times.  So far, I have heard nothing of this
#man on this usenet or very little in standard history books on the
#Final Solution.
 
 
 
I did use the phrase Auschwitz complex at least once, but you are
correct in that I should be more specific in every instance.  So
when I used the words Auschwitz camp, I did mean the entire Auschwitz
series of camps.  Some people when they are talking about Auschwitz
II (Birkenau), call it Auschwitz, so there can be some confusion
when one isn't specific.  Therefore I apologize.  If Richard Baer
was the last commandant of the Auschwitz complex (depending on one's
sources) he may have left a paper trail.  I am quite sure something
revealing is located in there.  Why wasn't anything turned over by
the Soviet?  Are they still typing up documents?  Since he was
captured by the West Germans, he must have been interrogated.
I have not seen  any references to any interrogations in most
history books.
 
 
 


From rs241@delphi.com Sun Jul 23 19:15:11 PDT 1995
Article: 24165 of alt.revisionism
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From: rs241@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben removed 'indicator' from gas
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 20:11:58 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 56
Message-ID: 
References:  <3u01he$72v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com
X-To: HMazal 

HMazal  writes:
 
>Time to reveal the "REASON"  inasmuch as neither our anonymous poster nor
>Mr. Hunt have managed to do their homework.
 
 
 
 
 
It's about time!  The other references did not give a reason (this
includes Mr. Borkin); this reference at least gave a plausible reason.
Plus I have been doing my "homework."  With the limited amount of
references to this particular topic, it would be difficult to come
to some firm conclusions.  I will say that participating in this
particular thread has broadened and altered some of my opinions,
but the main gist of my beliefs has not changed.  The request for
the absence of the indicator was not influenced by the alleged
extermination of people.
 
 
>There is little sense in typing several pages of this book for the benefit
>of our 'revisionist' historians. I have cited the exact reference and no
>doubt these fine researchers have access to copies of the book. If not,
>there is no doubt that they will request more information.
 
Don't worry there is no need to type in its entirety.
 
One, according to a memorandum by Rudolf Hoess, the Zyklon contained
less of an odor ingredient.  This memorandum is dated August 12, 1942.
 
Two, the manual NI-9912 does not call the irritant a tear inducing
irritant.  It just says irritant.  The memo by Rudolf Hoess and the
request by Murgowski's representative does not mention any tear
inducing irritant, but a odor indicator.  Now the manual may not be
accurate in their descriptive terms, but maybe the individuals
who were using it were familiar with the features of the product.
 
Three, according to Mr. Pressac (page titled errata, Auschwitz
Technique . . .) the percentage of the indicator was reduced,
because of a shortage in the supply.
 
 
Four, the alleged conversation between Gerstein and Dr. Peters took
place in June 1943.
 
 
 
Although Mr. Pressac did not provide footnotes for his statements,
his seems  the most probable.  The alleged memorandum by Hoess was
distributed ten months prior to the alleged conversation between
Gerstein and Dr. Peters.  If this conversation is authentic, why
didn't either of these gentlemen bring up the fact that the irritant
was being phased out.
 
 
 


From uroessl1@gwdg.de Tue Jul 25 09:35:18 PDT 1995
Article: 24246 of alt.revisionism
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From: uroessl1@gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
Date: 23 Jul 1995 00:11:45 +0200
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
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X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #6 (NOV)

Alexander Baron  writes:

>In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

>> He said that he wasn't guilty of the gassings, as they took
>> place in Auschwitz II (Birkenau) when he was in charge
>> of Auschwitz I.

>I see, there were gassings but I knew nothing about them. Sounds familiar.

Sounds familiar, that Mr.Baron knows nothing.

>I'll have to recheck Staeglich when I get the chance but I'm fairly certain
>he denied them per se.

Small wonder - the man is a denier, it's his business. I may confirm here,
that this incredible judge, W.Staeglich, indeed denied the mass-gassings
at Auschwitz 'per se'. That is, Staeglich doesn't bother to consider
the evidence for the mass-murders - as the results of his investigations
were fixed 'per se'. What do you expect from a denier?

u.roessler                                              uroessl1@gwdg.de


From rs241@delphi.com Tue Jul 25 09:35:26 PDT 1995
Article: 24254 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!grumpy.insinc.net!scratchy.mi.net!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!news.magicnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.delphi.com!usenet
From: rs241@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More ridiculousness
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 20:19:27 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 132
Message-ID: 
References: <1995Jun30.022859.998@hobbes.kzoo.edu>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1a.delphi.com
X-To: Barry Shein 

Barry Shein  writes:
 
>Ok, how do your read the following internal Nazi memo from Dr Becker:
 
 
 
 
 
 
Simple, the memorandum that you had cited talks about gas vans.
These alleged gas vans used their engines to exterminate people.
Now if there were other alleged vans that used Zyklon, please
provide better sources.
 
 
This quote is very strange by Dr. Becker:
 
.  .  .  "Besides that I ordered that during  application of gas all
the men were to be kept as far away from the vans as possible, so they
should not suffer damage to their health by the gas which eventually
would escape.  I should like to take this opportunity to bring the
following to your attention: several commands have had the unloading
after the application of gas done by their own men.  I brought to the
attention of the commanders of those S.K. concerned the immense
psychological injuries and damages to their health which that work
can have for those men, even if not immediately, at least later on.
The men complained to me about head-aches which appeared after each
unloading.  Nevertheless they don't want to change the orders, because
they are afraid prisoners called for that work, could use an opportune
moment to flee.  To protect the men from these damages, I request
orders be issued accordingly."  . .  .
 
Document 501-PS; Volume III (I could be wrong) , page 419 red series
 
I though they issued gas masks in the German military.  If at that
stage of the war they had decided to discontinue (since the threat
of gas warfare was minimized), then I could understand not issuing
every soldier a gas mask.  The Germans should have had some gas masks
available for this effort.  I find it strange that Dr.  Becker did not
mention the use of gas masks either in the past, present,  or future
tense.  If the vehicle was moving, then the exhausts would have been
no different from any other moving vehicle at that time (sure each
vehicle emits different amounts of pollution, I doubt if it would have
been that dangerous to drive behind this vehicle if they were driving
several scores of yards away {in a military manner}).  If these alleged
activities were being  handled in the countryside, the amount of
pollutants from the vehicle would have been minimal compared to life in
a city.   Once the unloading would be carried out and if Dr. Becker
was concerned about his men getting headaches, all that was needed was
for the doors to be opened and allow a few minutes for the vans to be
ventilated, and of course have his men wear gas masks.
 
 
 
 
>So assume that the irritant, which was designed to be so noxious that
>even if you had no idea what it was you'd run the other way long
>before the levels of cyanide became harmful, were still in the
>Zyklon-B. You'd have quite a period of screaming, tortured-sounding
>people. Cyanide, in its pure form, is not very recognizeable, just an
>almond-smell. And by the time you can smell it you're probably within
>a few breaths of losing consciousness and dying.
 
Even if the Zyklon-B did not have any type of scent, there would still
be panic in the gas chamber.  The first person to collapse would start
a commotion.
 
 
>Also, what about emptying the gas chambers rapidly? They didn't air
>them out like one might a ship's hold, overnight etc. Might the
>irritant have been too much for others to work around?
 
Well one could say that the removal of the indicator was necessary
to expedite the ventilation of the barracks, delousing chambers, etc.
 
 
>Remember, it was *designed* to make you run the other way even in tiny
>quantities. That was the point, it didn't rely on your recognizing the
>odor of the irritant (unlike, say, mercaptan, the sulfrous odor they
>add to home cooking/heating gas which is merely meant to be an
>unambiguous indicator you're supposed to recognize), it just made you
>want to get away.
 
Where does it state in the literature of that time that it was a tear
inducing irritant or even a skin irritant?  The Hoess memorandum refers
to an odor ingredient or something of that nature.  Professor Hilberg
refers to it as an odor indicator based on a letter.
 
 
>I could imagine that being rather inconvenient when, eg, removing and
>disposing of the corpses etc. Cyanide would blow away when the room
>was aerated, it doesn't particularly cling to clothing etc (tho I'd
>use gloves or wash my hands really well, but that's the limit of it,
>it doesn't go thru your skin, I've worked with cyanide), but almost
>any amount of such a strong irritant would be a processing problem at
>every step.
 
Well because of the lack of facts presented by Exterminationist
historians one has to rely on their imaginations or conjectures.
You had brought up an interesting point about airing out the irritant
(if it was that strong).
 
 
>>I recall a new report of President Clinton's visit to Babi Yar.
>>The news report claimed that over 100,000 people were shot and
>>buried there, some people claim that 35,000 people were killed.
 
>The Einsatzgruppen who did the murdering reported back to headquarters
>the following:
>
> Einsatzgruppe C
> Standort Kiev
>
> In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
>  Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a >executed
>  33,771 Jews in Kiev.
 
 
According to page 49 Volume I of the blue series, it was claimed by the
Soviets that 100,000 people were killed their.  On page 458 Volume VII,
the 100,000 figure was used as well as the 52,000 figure (this was based
on Molotov's report of 1942 USSR-51)
 
I cannot find USSR-51 nor USSR-101 in Volume XXXIX of the blue series.
On page 550 of Volume VII of the blue series and on page 173 of Volume
XXIV, it is claimed that 101 is a photograph not a document.  Do you
know what volume USSR-101 is located in and do you have the correct
document number?
 
 
 
 


From hmazal@aol.com Sun Jul 30 23:52:21 PDT 1995
Article: 24680 of alt.revisionism
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From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben removed 'indicator' from gas
Date: 28 Jul 1995 04:16:13 -0400
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The anonymous rs241 states:

(text deleted)>I will say that participating in this
>particular thread has broadened and altered some of my opinions,
>but the main gist of my beliefs has not changed. 

Those beliefs being?

and,

>Two, the manual NI-9912 does not call the irritant a tear inducing
>irritant.  It just says irritant. 

Our anonymous critic should try sniffing 2-Bromo-1-phenylethanone, for
example, and report back on the condition of his eyes...

Most 'irritants',  in case he is not aware, are also strong lachrymators.


Harry W. Mazal OBE in San Antonio, Texas

E-Mail from deniers will be considered  a public message and posted in the
newsgroups at my discretion.

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