Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DEBATING THE HOLOCAUST
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In article <60.28328.2972.0N1F1555@canrem.com>,
 christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders) wrote:

>Why can't we openly debate the holocaust?  It is clear to me that
>there  are  TWO  sides  to  the  issue:   the Jewish side and the
>Revisionist side.  We've all heard the Jew's version of the story
>(the  evil  Nazis  exterminated  6,000,000  Jews),  but  for some
>reason, we are not  allowed  to  hear  the  Revisionist  version.

The is nothing to "debate," and much to discuss, and we've
been openly discussing it, right here, for four years. Your
complaint is groundless, your question merely rhetorical.

The "version of the story" we've heard is humanity's, not the
"Jewish" version at all.

There is a "third side," if you will - the deniers'.
Revisionists understand that the facts as known are generally
correct, but they interpret them differently, as Mayer did.
The deniers, on the other hand, have no interest in historical
discussions; their material is uniformly filled with
misrepresentations, duplicious lies, and empty rhetoric.

And, yes, Christopher, the Nazis were most certainly evil.

>People like  Ernst  Zundel,  who  have  alternative  views on the
>holocaust, are persecuted for their  beliefs.   People  like  Ken
>McVay  who  support  the  Jew's  version  of  the  holocaust  are
>supported,  promoted  and even funded.  Do we not live in a "free
>speech" society?  If so,  then  the  rights  of people like Ernst
>Zundel must be protected.

Mr. Zundel, who lacks the courage to speak for himself, is
more than welcome to address the issues here. Perhaps, when
he's ready to do that, we can begin with his continuing,
callous, and cynical publication of outright lies... His
rights, as the Supreme Court of Canada has demonstrated, are
firmly protected.

And no, Christopher, technically speaking, we _don't_ live in
a "free speech society." I've been told, over and over again
by those who wish to censor the net (a group I most certainly
do not belong within), that Canada has no tradition of free
speech - technically correct, but factually meaningless. If
Mr. Zundel is unhappy with Canada's approach to this issue, he
is quite free to move south of the border, where there _is_ a
strong tradition, firmly established in law, of free speech.

>I believe that the holocaust happened, but I do not believe  that
>it  happened to the extent that the Jews said it did.  The reason
>why I doubt the  "official"  figures is because the pro-holocaust
>lobby  works  over-time  to  silence  those  who  challenge   the
>"official"  version.  I believe that the pro-holocaust lobby have
>something to hide when  they  seek  to  silence people like Ernst
>Zundel.

The commonly accepted figures, within a relatively small
framework of error, are extremely well documented. What has a
response from anti-denial forces got to do with that?
(Nothing.)

I do not seek to silence Mr. Zundel. I seek his appearance
here, where we can demonstrate his duplicious and cynical
approach to history before tens of millions of users.

What is he afraid of, Christopher?

Article 2388 of alt.conspiracy:
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: RE: CANADA'S BEST AND BIG
From: christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders)
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!utcsri!utnut!torn!fonorola!portnoy!canrem.com!christopher.saunders
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <60.20604.4607.0N1F1649@canrem.com>
References: 
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 14:52:00 -0500
Organization: CRS Online  (Toronto, Ontario)
Lines: 34

On 22 Aug 95 08:10pm, MVANALST@RBI.COM said the following:

    > Let's not try and confuse legitimate historical
    > revisionism, which is done by academically qualified
    > scholars, using verifiable historical archives and the
    > like under academic peer review...

The  "academically  qualified  scholars"  and   the   "verifiable
historical  archives" that you speak of have been approved by the
Establishment.

    > ...with "revisionists" who are nothing more than crackpots
    > and cranks with an agenda.

So, anyone who questions the official  Establishment  version  of
history  is  a  crackpot  and  a  crank  with  an  agenda, right?
Historical Revisionism  IS  ABOUT  REFUTING  THE  OFFICIAL FACTS!
There is no Revisionist that is "approved" by the Establishment!

    > Agendas, for instance, like denying that the Holocaust
    > ever happened (and was the Jews' fault anyways) and that
    > Hitler was a swell guy.

From what I have learned, Holocaust Revisionists do not deny that
the  Holocaust  happened;  they  question certain facts about the
Holocaust.  Specifically, they question  the  use of gas chambers
and  the  official  numbers  of  people  who  died.

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Article 497 of can.politics:
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: MY OPINION ON HOLOCAUST
From: christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders)
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!utcsri!utnut!torn!fonorola!portnoy!canrem.com!christopher.saunders
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Message-ID: <60.71614.4112.0N1F1648@canrem.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 14:51:00 -0500
Organization: CRS Online  (Toronto, Ontario)
Lines: 42

On 22 Aug 95 09:09pm, MVANALST@RBI.COM said the following:

   >  Will you unequivocably answer the  question?  Yes or no, do
   >  you believe the Holocuast happened?  That six million or so
   >  Jews were brutally murdered by the Nazis?

I will give you my answer to your question that you addressed  to
Marc Lemire.  I do not know much about the Holocaust, so I cannot
answer  "yes"  or  "no"  to specific questions regarding events /
figures pertaining to the Holocaust.

Question  #1:   Yes,  I  believe  that  the  Holocaust  happened.

Question #2:  No, I do not  believe  that  6  million  Jews  were
murdered  by  the  Nazis.  I have learned that the number of Jews
that were  allegedly  killed  at  Auschwitz  was  approximately 4
million, and then the number was reduced to 1.1 million, or there
abouts.  I learned that some "gas chambers" in Holocaust  museums
were  actually reconstructions, and that no Zyklon-B traces could
be found on the walls of some of these gas chambers.

My knowledge on the Holocaust  is  sketchy,  so if I am mistaken,
please correct me.  However, I have seen  a  video  by  Holocaust
Revisionist  David  Cole  (a  Jew),  and  he  presented some very
interesting evidence.

The main reason why I do  not believe the official version of the
Holocaust is because anyone who tries to question  these  figures
is  silenced  or persecuted.  The trial of Ernst Zundel is a good
example.  He was put on trial for publishing a book entitled "Did
Six Million Really Die?".  It is wrong  for a person to be put on
trial  for questioning an event in human history.  The reason why
he was put on trial  is  because  certain people did not want his
version of the Holocaust to get out.  The fact that those  people
would  try  to  silence  people like Mr. Zundel makes me question
their version of the holocaust.

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Article 498 of can.politics:
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: MARC LEMIRE'S GRAMMAR
From: christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders)
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in2.uu.net!utcsri!utnut!torn!fonorola!portnoy!canrem.com!christopher.saunders
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Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 14:51:00 -0500
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I  have  read a few of your messages to Marc Lemire.  Why are you
correcting all  of  his  grammatical  and  spelling errors?  What
relevance does it have with  Revisionism?   Not  everyone  is  an
English  major,  so  unless a person's spelling and grammar makes
their messages illegible, I  suggest  that  you focus on just the
message.

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Article 5023 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: DEBATING THE HOLOCAUS
From: christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders)
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!fonorola!portnoy!canrem.com!christopher.saunders
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References: 
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:50:00 -0500
Organization: CRS Online  (Toronto, Ontario)
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On 27 Aug 95 03:43am, DKEREN@WORLD.STD.COM said the following:

    > We can. Get every "revisionist" to this newsgroup and
    > let's debate. Maybe you'll find someone who'll do a better
    > job than the miserable Nazi clowns we've seen so far.

If we could openly debate  the holocaust, then Ernst Zundel would
never have been charged  with  spreading  "false  news"  when  he
published the book, "Did 6 Million Really Die?"  Ernst Zundel has
invited  his opponents to debate the holocaust with him, but they
refused.  When  people  try  to  debate  the  holocaust, they are
dismissed as "neo-Nazis", "nut-cases" and "liars".

    > No, you don't understand. It's not the "Jewish side", it's
    > the "people who were there side": Jews, Germans, Soviets,
    > Poles, Gypsies, Czechs etc.

The Jews are the ones who are  pushing  the  holocaust  down  our
throats.   I've  never  seen  the Soviets, Germans or the Gypsies
talk about the holocaust as much as the Jews have.  In  fact,  we
hardly  ever  hear  about  the  other people who Hitler allegedly
gassed.  All we hear about is the "6 million Jews".

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Article 5136 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: MY OPINION ON HOLOCAU
From: christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders)
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!vanbc.wimsey.com!fonorola!portnoy!canrem.com!christopher.saunders
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <60.28703.2972.0N1F1F56@canrem.com>
References: <41mk15$im6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 17:21:00 -0500
Organization: CRS Online  (Toronto, Ontario)
Lines: 64

On 28 Aug 95 09:50am, Ken McVay OBC said the following:

    > No-one, no agency, no historian, to my knowledge,
    > has ever claimed that 4,000,000 _Jews_ were killed at
    > Auschwitz.

I do remember watching the David  Cole  video  interviewing  some
gentleman  named  "Van  Piper" (or something like that), and I do
remember him mentioning  that  the  original Auschwitz figure was
around 4 million, and then it was changed to 1.1 million.  I will
re-watch the video and find out where David Cole mentioned the  4
million figure.

    > I have questioned some of those "figures" for four years.
    > No one, not a single person, Jewish, Moslem, neo-Nazi, or
    > anyone at all, has ever tried to either silence me or
    > persecute me.

Why then, is it illegal to question the holocaust in Germany, and
other European countries?  Why was German-American  Hans  Schmidt
arrested in Germany for questioning the holocaust?  Why was Ernst
Zundel  brought  to trial for publishing a book entitled "Did Six
Million  Really  Die?"   Why  are  Jewish  groups   going   after
"holocaust  deniers"?   If it is alright to debate the holocaust,
they shouldn't have a problem with people like Ernst Zundel.

    > I wouldn't _dream_ of silencing Mr. Zuendel. I continually
    > invite the man to participate in these discussions on the
    > net...

I have wondered why Mr.  Zundel  is  not  participating  in  this
newsgroup  on  a  regular basis.  He has his own WWW page and his
own  Internet  address.   Perhaps  he  doesn't  know  much  about
computers, so he gets other  people  to take care of the computer
aspect of his business, while he does his shortwave radio  shows,
his videos, newsletter, etc.

    > Mr. Zundel, by the way, is a proven liar - an outright
    > fraud. His publications and his videos contain outright
    > lies.

I don't care if Mr. Zundel is a certified nutbar; I will actively
defend  his,  yours,  or  anyone else's right to Free Speech.  My
interest in the holocaust is from  the Free Speech point of view.
People who believe the "official" facts concerning the  holocaust
can  speak  freely,  while people like Ernst Zundel are silenced,
persecuted, attacked and even  arrested.   If Mr. Zundel wants to
publish books that say that the Nazis flew UFOs, or  that  Hitler
was under the control of aliens,  then  that is his right.  It is
also your right to refute what he has  to  say  in  an  open  and
public debate.

    > How  can anyone claim Canada's leading Nazi propagandist
    > is being "silenced?"

Certain people don't like him questioning  the  holocaust.   They
tried  to  silence  him through the legal system, but they failed
misterably.  So, they resort to burning down his home.

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Article 925 of can.politics:
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: RE: MY OPINION ON HOLOCAU
From: christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders)
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!fonorola!portnoy!canrem.com!christopher.saunders
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <60.72155.4112.0N1F1CB5@canrem.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:51:00 -0500
Organization: CRS Online  (Toronto, Ontario)
Lines: 29

On 27 Aug 95 08:37pm, AN321@FREENET.CARLETON.CA said the following:

  > The reason is that  the  holocaust is so well-documented that
  > anyone questioning it is  assumed  to  be  doing  so  due  to
  > his/her anti-semitism and hatred of Jews...

I  wonder  if  the  "anti-Semitism"  that you speak of comes from
things like Israel syphoning $500  billion from both the U.S. and
Germany since it's inception.  It might have something to do with
the fact that Israel gets more foreign aid than any other country
in the world.  From the U.S. alone, it  sucks  $4-5  billion  per
year.   I have heard figures of $8-10 billion per year, so I will
get you the real figures soon.   Then there's the fact that it is
illegal to question the holocaust in Germany and  other  European
countries.   What  about  Jewish  organizations like the ADL that
promote restrictions on Free Speech  and gun control?  What about
the large Jewish  influence  and  control  in  the  Establishment
media?

People don't hate without reason.  I put it to you that the Jews,
or perhaps at the very least, certain  Jewish  organizations  are
doing SOMETHING to create this climate of "anti-Semitism".

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Article 930 of can.politics:
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: RE: MY OPINION ON HOLOCAU
From: christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders)
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!news.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!fonorola!portnoy!canrem.com!christopher.saunders
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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:50:00 -0500
Organization: CRS Online  (Toronto, Ontario)
Lines: 25

On 27 Aug 95 12:31pm, Ken McVay OBC said the following:

    > Mr. Saunders wasn't paying attention during class. Had he
    > been, he would have learned that trace elements _were_
    > found in the homicidal gas chambers, even by that twit
    > Leuchter.

They didn't go into great  detail when they covered the holocaust
at my high school.  All they taught  us  was  the  usual  "Hitler
killed 6 million Jews", showed us a few gory photographs and went
onto  other issues.  I know very little about the holocaust, so I
am hear to learn both sides of the issue.

    > If he's not sleeping in class, that is.

Ken, I like to  debate  with  people  in a friendly and civilized
manner.  I consider you an opponent, but I will still  treat  you
with courtesy and respect.  I would appreciate the same from you.


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Article 5268 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: MY OPINION ON HOLOCAU
In-Reply-To: christopher.saunders@canrem.com's message of Mon, 28 Aug 95 17:21:00 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <41mk15$im6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <60.28703.2972.0N1F1F56@canrem.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 05:00:55 GMT
Lines: 180


From: christopher.saunders@canrem.com (Christopher Saunders)
>On 28 Aug 95 09:50am, Ken McVay OBC said the following:
>
>    > No-one, no agency, no historian, to my knowledge,
>    > has ever claimed that 4,000,000 _Jews_ were killed at
>    > Auschwitz.
>
>I do remember watching the David  Cole  video  interviewing  some
>gentleman  named  "Van  Piper" (or something like that), and I do
>remember him mentioning  that  the  original Auschwitz figure was
>around 4 million, and then it was changed to 1.1 million.  I will
>re-watch the video and find out where David Cole mentioned the  4
>million figure.

*Jews*, Ken said 4,000,000 *Jews*. Read the above again, that's why he
used _Jews_ (his form of emphasis.)

What he's saying is that the Communist Polish govt had claimed for
years that a total of 4,000,000 people were killed at Auschwitz, it
didn't distinguish Jews in that number. For example, many Russian
POW's were known to have been killed at these camps.

The figure was apparently always suspect by many mainstream historians
and later revised down to 1,100,000 by Poland after the fall of
communism.

>Why then, is it illegal to question the holocaust in Germany, and
>other European countries?

I suppose you'd have to ask them, I don't believe the German govt
keeps its reasoning a secret (agree or not, I tend not to agree with
this.)

Even in the freest governments there's always been a problem with
drawing the line between, for example, legitimate free speech and
inciting to riot, particularly inciting to riot (or similar) based
upon sheer or very likely fraud.

I tend to be very conservative on this point and tend to go with the
US model where the line is drawn mostly at imploring immediate action
where the listener is deprived of the right to verify what's being
implored (eg, shouting fire in a theater, you can hardly each run
around and check whether there's really a fire or not, you are
implored to run out immediately, that kind of thing.) And specifics
regarding libel and slander of individuals (but not of groups, as US
law draws the line.)

>Why  are  Jewish  groups   going   after
>"holocaust  deniers"?

Define "going after" precisely.

>If it is alright to debate the holocaust,
>they shouldn't have a problem with people like Ernst Zundel.

Define "a problem".

I mean it. Everything is in your vagaries.

A lot of people seem to think that they should be somehow hoisted up
on everyone's shoulders and applauded for promoting hateful and idiot
ideas.

I believe fully in the free marketplace of ideas.

I also believe that in that marketplace, as in any marketplace, some
people go bankrupt and lead miserable, dejected lives.

I don't want the govt to help with that. But this is the real world
and there are plenty of ways that a person with hateful and stupid
ideas might not prosper. And I include things like being sued for
libel where appropriate (ie, if they step out of bounds of mere
discourse and commit actual libel) or no one wanting to hire the
person or publish their works or whatever (nothing criminal), and
generally becoming a social pariah and written off as a babbling
moron. That's a risk one takes.

>    > Mr. Zundel, by the way, is a proven liar - an outright
>    > fraud. His publications and his videos contain outright
>    > lies.
>
>I don't care if Mr. Zundel is a certified nutbar;

I don't see Ken calling him a certified nutbar. Though personally I
suspect he might well be, or might be a very cynical man.

But of course you care, if you believed he was a liar and a fraud you
wouldn't use him as a source of information.

>I will actively
>defend  his,  yours,  or  anyone else's right to Free Speech.

Yes yes yes, I'm sure this gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling but
unfortunately no one here has said otherwise so stop waving the flag
in our faces.

Free speech has its downsides, right? There has to be SOME downside to
being a willful, lying moron, no? Or do you expect the rest of us to
award Pulitzer prizes to Zuendel's bizarre claims about Nazi UFO bases
hidden in the South Pole? Or tenured and chaired professorships?
What?

You're free to write the wrong answers down on an exam in school, and
they're free to flunk your butt and possibly seal your fate in life.

Doesn't interfere with your freedom to write down wrong answers
however, only your ability to get accreditation from that school which
is theirs to give or withold.

Life is full of such risks.

>My
>interest in the holocaust is from  the Free Speech point of view.
>People who believe the "official" facts concerning the  holocaust
>can  speak  freely,  while people like Ernst Zundel are silenced,
>persecuted, attacked and even  arrested.

Ok, then your gripe is with such people who persecute, attack, etc.

Your laying it all at the foot of "Jewish groups" without further
qualification doesn't do a lot to establish your own credibility
however. Sounds like the babble of a self-impressed demagogue.

>If Mr. Zundel wants to
>publish books that say that the Nazis flew UFOs, or  that  Hitler
>was under the control of aliens,  then  that is his right.

I agree.

>It is
>also your right to refute what he has  to  say  in  an  open  and
>public debate.

And it's also people's right to point out that the man is a total
nutbar, to use your term, so that others don't get suckered into
believing a word he says.

There's value in the short synopsis. Anyone should have the right to
review the facts for themselves if they're so inclined, however.

But if Zuendel goes bankrupt or similar because everyone knows he's a
complete loon well that's the risk of the free marketplace of ideas.

>    > How  can anyone claim Canada's leading Nazi propagandist
>    > is being "silenced?"
>
>Certain people don't like him questioning  the  holocaust.   They
>tried  to  silence  him through the legal system, but they failed
>misterably.  So, they resort to burning down his home.

Really? So you know who burned down his home? My, you should really
call the Toronto police! They are most interested in the identity of
these perpetrators.

For example, it's not uncommon that some public or semi-public figure
is the victim of something like this, and of course everyone
immediately assumes it has something to do with their politics or
whatever. And then later we find out it was some kind of domestic
dispute or something rather mundane like that. It's amazing how often
after all the conspiracy theories die down it turns out to be an
ex-spouse or a disgruntled ex-employee etc.

I dunno. But neither do you.

And it's hugely irresponsible of you to assert with such authority
that "they resort to burning down his home" when you know no such
thing at all.

But, in this free marketplace of ideas, I now know more about you:
That you're prone to flinging about assertions as if they were facts
when you actually know no such thing.

Good night.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

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