The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/sabatini.anthony/1997/sabatini.9710


From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:08 EDT 1997
Article: 142963 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Of Trolls and Flames (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <34395921.78363@news.demon.co.uk> <343ade38$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3448a68d.2663945@news.demon.co.uk>  <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk> <344181f0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3443e648.85380@news.demon.co.uk> <3446b797$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bcdb0d$4715f390$6ab113cc@odin> <3448166a$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <62d4k1$tok$1@orthanc.reference.com> <344a7971$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:142963

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344a7971$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <62d4k1$tok$1@orthanc.reference.com>, on 10/19/97 
>    at 02:14 PM, joelr@winternet.com said:
> > On Fri, 17 Oct 97 21:52:41, Gord McFee  wrote:
> 
> > > > Actually, it seemed to me as if the incorrigible Joel 
> > > > Rosenberg was telling Giwer to drown himself (but 
> > > > giving him directions to walk into a river until his 
> > > > "hat floated"). Seems pretty provocative to me...
> > > 
> > > Really?  Did Joel know that Matt can't swim? 
> 
> > Well, there's reason to think he can't bathe; it's hardly 
> > a large step to suggest that Matt "Jabba" Giwer can't 
> > swim, either.
> 
> And of course, if you order him to, he will march into the 
> river, and stay there until the year 2000.  };->
> 
> > > Did Joel think Matt was stupid enough to actually do 
> > > it (mind you, that one *is* possible)?  
> 
> > While I think Giwer is one of the better poster boys for 
> > the right of someone over 21 to commit suicide -- I mean, 
> > he is a miserable little man, after all -- I really doubt that 
> > he's going to decide to do it merely because I suggest that 
> > he take a swim, and I don't think even the clueless 
> > "Anthony Sabatini" is enough of a nimrod to really
> > believe that.
>
> No, Anthony knows very well.  He just saw a chance to start 
> a flamewar with someone.

This must be Gord's new 'thing'. Everything and anything is a an incitement to
"flame". But tell me, Gord, if I told you to take a flying leap off a tall
building, can we safely assume you won't take it as an insult?

> > He's just flaming away.
> 
> Per usual.

So let me get this straight. Rosenberg admits to prodding Giwer, just as I've
said, and Gord still thinks *I* was trolling. How strange.

> > > Or was he simply making a fool of him?
> 
> > Well, yes, I was; I pushed a button of Giwer, and he 
> > pissed all over himself, again.

Rosenberg clearly indicates he trolled Giwer. What does Gord answer?

> And again and again.  "Revisionism's" poster boy.

Ah.

> > He's quite a silly, albeit pitiful, old man.  Check out his picture 
> > at the Hatewatch site, and look at that ravaged face.  

I suppose this is _not_ a flame by Rosenberg, right?

> No thanks.  I've seen it before.

[.sig dismantled and sent to Timbuktu]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:09 EDT 1997
Article: 142970 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Theological Declaration of Barmen
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <01bcdc10$78aef290$53a1cdcd@odin>  <01bcdc4f$42e2d3e0$e2a2cdcd@odin>  <01bcdcb2$d7881380$d856eccd@odin> <344ad1f2$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:142970

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344ad1f2$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bcdcb2$d7881380$d856eccd@odin>, on 10/19/97 
>    at 05:21 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > Daniel Keren  wrote in article
> > ...
> > > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > > # Daniel Keren  wrote:
> > > 
> > > # It means Christianity took the next step in the
> > > # evolution of monotheism.
> > > 
> > > Sorry, I really fail to understand this. Judaism is also
> > > a monotheistic religion. What makes Christianity "the next
> > > step"? How do you objectively define such things?
> 
> > Well, I think we hit the big problem with discussing religion; i.e.,
> > it is based on faith. Here's my take on this situation: God sent His
> > Son down to earth. That is the part you need to believe in. I do. The
> > "next step" I was referring to, then, was accepting God's gift.
> > Judaism rejected it.
> 
> Jews believe that the Messiah is yet to come.  Christians believe that
> Christ was the Messiah.  You are right, it is a matter of faith.  It
> cannot be proven by scientific study, it is illogical, it is
> contradictory.  The Vatican makes billions off Christianity every year. 

Where did you get this figure from?

> One could argue that it has a vested interest in all this.

Of course it does, but not in a greedy, opportunistic way. After all, heating
and maintenance of churches is not free, is it? Priests and other employees
must be paid wages to live, no? Supplies, equipment, etc. costs money. As does
the organization of community festivities, particularly the preparations for
the Jubilee 2000. For more information about the latter, please see:

http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/pju_en.htm

> I would be interested to know why you are so prepared to apply faith to
> this issue, yet demand forensic and scientific proof for the Holocaust?

You would best retract this question, Gord, unless you are prepared to claim
that the Holocaust is also a religious matter and should be taken on faith.

> [deleted]
> 
> > > # let me explain a few things. All religions are not
> > > # equal. If they were, there would be no point in being a
> > > # Christian, Jew, Hindu or whatever; there would exist only
> > > # one massive mega-religion. In order to have a 'right' way,
> > > # there must exist a 'wrong' way. Now, do I think other (major)
> > > # religions are horrible? Of course not! However, if a person of
> > > # a given religion does not feel his or her's is better than 
> > > # another, then that person should most likely switch or become
> > > # an agnostic. Otherwise, what is the point?
> > > 
> > > Your problem is that you confuse "different" with "better". 
> > > Religions are different, yes; does that mean one is better
> > > than the other? No. All religions are an incomplete-by-definition
> > > approximations to something we cannot grasp, but one cannot
> > > claim that some are "better".
> 
> > I disagree. Remembering that religion is based on faith, one must
> > accept that his or her chosen faith is better than another or one
> > would have chosen that other one.
> 
> No, one should not do that at all.  One of the worst manifestations of
> imperfect Christianity is to assume that it is the only way to meet God,
> and better than all the others.  Re-read Vatican II.

What should I look for?

> [deleted]
>  
> > > So do I. But the religious establishments are usually a
> > > rather horrible thing, are they not?
> 
> > Let's not get into that right now, OK?  ;-)
> 
> Is it not relevant?

It is a long and complex topic. Worse, I fear many would be insulted...  ;-)

> > > # Thus, the reasons for rejecting Christianity have more to do
> > > # with earthly matters than holy ones, if you take my meaning.
> > > 
> > > But you're factually incorrect. You are so sure that 
> > > Christianity is "better" than Judaism, that you cannot
> > > accept that it was rejected because of religious reasons.
> 
> > But they weren't "religious reasons". Jesus renounced the corruption 
> > of the Pharisees, not the Laws of God.
> 
> Jesus changed the Jewish laws, did he not?  The Two Great 
> Commandments?

These were additions to the Ten.

> [deleted]

[.sig forced to walk the plank]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:09 EDT 1997
Article: 142978 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk> <3431b79d$12$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:142978

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:

[...]

> McClelland doesn't list a thing.
> 
> >>>>>>>No, couldn't be bothered, you are being silly.
> 
> In fact, he shows that his intent is not history. I suspect that 
> like Satatini, he doesn't know any.

[...]

> >Hopefully some of these "revisionists" will reply to you - then we'll
> >all learn just who they are.
>
> They have  Sabatini, Michael. Phillips, Bellinger, Giwer, Ives,
> Widmann, David Thomas, Butz used to post, Bradley Smith used to 
> post, Ingrid Rimland and Zundel and you are such a pretender.

[...]

> Okay then you are of that number. Convince me otherwise. I'm not 
> going to lie any further about the perception I have of you.
> 
> Clear now? Feal better? You are the one bringing up soiap, skins,
> steaming even though this material has been explained to YOU. So yes,
> I'm pretty sure you are a denier pretending to be innocent. Sabatini
> has dropped the pretense, now it is your turn.

[...]

> > How could there be laws that say it is illegal to 
> > disparage the dead by denial of details?
> 
> Why would anyone want to disparage the dead? What purpose 
> would there be in that? Would you like people disparaging your 
> dead relatives and pointing further fingers at you? They aren't 
> dneying details. They are denying several major concepts.
> 
> They deny the extermination camps and the purpose of these 
> camps. Historians do not but they argue about other matters.
> 
> They deny that there was any specific program to rid Europe of Jews
> and the Jewish influence. Hisotrians do not and the Nazis did not.

[...]

> >So why do you label people "deniers" and "revisionists"? And what
> >"should be meaningless"?
> 
> Because I know what is going on here in this group. Bellinger has
> admitted as much to me about his being a denier. They don't like the
> term but it fits what they do. They deny and they offer NO altenative.
> 
> Others call themselves revisionists but they do not want to do the
> work that historical revisionists must do. So they are "revisionists."
> 
> >You are a waste of time Mike. When you want to argue honestly 
> >I shall be happy to oblige. Sneering bores me. Look at the labels 
> >you parcel out!
> 
> Looking in the mirror? Grow up and be a man. You are in this group
> waffling around and picking fights. You offer nothing more than the
> typical sludge and posturing I see all the time. You are more
> tolerable than the Sabatini's and Giwer's but you are still playing
> the same old game. You haven't offerred a thing to argue. You offer
> nothing of your own and you expect others (like Phillips) to do all
> the work and tell you all about it. You haven't begun to show the
> first thought or clue about this history. You are another one of those
> web-livers(they get all their nonsense from the WWW) it appears. You
> want to argue then make a substantive argument.
> 
> >>What are _my_ mainstream beliefs?
> >
> >You mean you don't know? I would imagine they are roughly in accord
> >with those of many others in this newsgroup - but substantially
> >different in varying amount and detail from those of many others in
> >this group. once again you are being really silly.
> 
> And again you failed to answer a question with any specifics. I can't
> discuss unless I know what details you have in your mind. But yes, I
> differ from many of the people who post here. Yes, there are no
> agendas that everyone accepts here as far as method or how the
> historical record is interpreted. You might whish that this were true
> but you are wrong. It is a denier who thinks that there is.
> 
> Honest enough for you?

Quite.

When will this pompous, unmitigated ass ever cease his endless smearing, his
unholy quest of tracking down and 'exposing' those heathen "deniers" that seem
to drive him mad?

Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist. After all, he's made it clear on many
occasions that he can't find any worthwhile discussions in this group (at
least not to his lofty standards). So why does he stay here and make us suffer
through his diatribes?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:10 EDT 1997
Article: 142984 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Battle-mad Van Alstines rages again (was: Theological Declaration of Barmen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <01bcdc10$78aef290$53a1cdcd@odin>  <3449E967.1809@concentric.net>  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:142984

Mark (aka Titania, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine  brayed in
article ...
> In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> > Michael Ives  writes:

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^

> > 
> > # Anthony, mightn't it also be accurate to say that Christ
> > # not only _transcended_ Judaism, he _renounced_ it?
> > 
> > No, it is totally inaccurate to say this; and it proves that
> > your knowledge in this field, too, is zero.
> > 
> > Jesus renounced and criticized the Jewish religious
> > establishment, not Judaism.
> > 
> > There are many ultra-orthodox Jews who severely criticize
> > the Jewish religious establishment, but not Judaism.
> > 
> > # I am unaware of any Christian proscription against saying
> > # the words "beast" and "crazed animal"!
> > 
> > As I said, your knowledge is zero.
> > 
> > # On the other hand, perhaps Mr Keren will elaborate on the
> > # theological underpinnings of his cohort Van Alstine's
> > # language such as this from Friday:
> > #
> > # "Mr. Ives is an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who
> > # loves bending over and taking it in the ass from his
> > # Nazi buddies." "
> 
> Tsk tsk. Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini, being the low-life he
> is, intentionally misquotes me again. No suprise there, given his virulent
> hatreds and complete lack of integrity. 

The battle-mad Van Alstine froths at the mouth and again proves that he
totally loses sight of everything else when in one of his berserk-like rages.
In fact, he has once again (!!!) been 'hoisted by his own petard' in that I
never accused him of what he is babbling about (above). He is apparently
responding -- in his inimitable, spittle-flinging way -- to something Mr. Ives
wrote. But, of course, because of his "virulent hatreds and complete lack of
integrity", he will never apologize for this unprovoked attack.

> (Does this mean he would try to beat me with a pickaxe too?)

I would not waste the otherwise useful wood on one as lowly as you. But more
and more I am beginning to believe you should be caged and sent to obedience
school.

[Van Alstine's cheesy excuse snipped]

> In Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's case, however, 
> given that he _is_ an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who loves 
> bending over and taking it in the ass from his Nazi buddies" one 
> is hard pressed to tell where commentary on behavior ends and 
> personal slurs begins! LOL!

Enraged beast that he is, Van Alstine makes another unprovoked attack. But
then again, it was also this same savage animal who recently charged blindly
(as is his wont) and viciously attacked *one of his own fellow travelers* like
the rabid cur he is.

[snip, including silly .sig, snipped]

Lest any forget:

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:11 EDT 1997
Article: 143016 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Of Trolls and Flames (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <34395921.78363@news.demon.co.uk> <343ade38$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3448a68d.2663945@news.demon.co.uk>  <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk> <344181f0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3443e648.85380@news.demon.co.uk> <3446b797$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bcdb0d$4715f390$6ab113cc@odin> <3448166a$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <62d4k1$tok$1@orthanc.reference.com> <344a7971$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bcdd60$54ee3ef0$6e7acdcd@odin> 
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143016

Mark (aka Titania, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine  brayed in
article ...
> In article <01bcdd60$54ee3ef0$6e7acdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > > No, Anthony knows very well.  He just saw a chance to start 
> > > a flamewar with someone.
> > 
> > This must be Gord's new 'thing'. Everything and anything is a an 
> > incitement to "flame". But tell me, Gord, if I told you to take a 
> > flying leap off a tall building, can we safely assume you won't 
> > take it as an insult?
> 
> And if I told Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini to take a 
> walk until his hat floats, can we safely assume he won't take that 
> as both an insult and an incitement to commit suicide? 

So you agree with me then? That or you are just confused. Again.

> Whadda dickhead.

Another penile-related remark from Titania. LOL!

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) slapped around and throw in jail]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:11 EDT 1997
Article: 143038 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Battle-mad Van Alstines rages again (was: Theological Declaration of Barmen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <01bcdc10$78aef290$53a1cdcd@odin>  <3449E967.1809@concentric.net>   
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdd88$f2822f00$a57acdcd@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143038

Mark (aka Titania, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine  brayed in
article ...
> In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> > Michael Ives  writes:

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^

> > 
> > # Anthony, mightn't it also be accurate to say that Christ
> > # not only _transcended_ Judaism, he _renounced_ it?
> > 
> > No, it is totally inaccurate to say this; and it proves that
> > your knowledge in this field, too, is zero.
> > 
> > Jesus renounced and criticized the Jewish religious
> > establishment, not Judaism.
> > 
> > There are many ultra-orthodox Jews who severely criticize
> > the Jewish religious establishment, but not Judaism.
> > 
> > # I am unaware of any Christian proscription against saying
> > # the words "beast" and "crazed animal"!
> > 
> > As I said, your knowledge is zero.
> > 
> > # On the other hand, perhaps Mr Keren will elaborate on the
> > # theological underpinnings of his cohort Van Alstine's
> > # language such as this from Friday:
> > #
> > # "Mr. Ives is an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who
> > # loves bending over and taking it in the ass from his
> > # Nazi buddies." "
> 
> Tsk tsk. Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini, being the low-life he
> is, intentionally misquotes me again. No suprise there, given his virulent
> hatreds and complete lack of integrity. 

The battle-mad Van Alstine froths at the mouth and again proves that he
totally loses sight of everything else when in one of his berserk-like rages.
In fact, he has once again (!!!) been 'hoisted by his own petard' in that I
never accused him of what he is babbling about (above). He is apparently
responding -- in his inimitable, spittle-flinging way -- to something Mr. Ives
wrote. But, of course, because of his "virulent hatreds and complete lack of
integrity", he will never apologize for this unprovoked attack.

> (Does this mean he would try to beat me with a pickaxe too?)

I would not waste the otherwise useful wood on one as lowly as you. But more
and more I am beginning to believe you should be caged and sent to obedience
school.

[Van Alstine's cheesy excuse snipped]

> In Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's case, however, 
> given that he _is_ an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who loves 
> bending over and taking it in the ass from his Nazi buddies" one 
> is hard pressed to tell where commentary on behavior ends and 
> personal slurs begins! LOL!

Enraged beast that he is, Van Alstine makes another unprovoked attack. But
then again, it was also this same savage animal who recently charged blindly
(as is his wont) and viciously attacked *one of his own fellow travelers* like
the rabid cur he is.

[snip, including silly .sig, snipped]

Lest any forget:

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:12 EDT 1997
Article: 143068 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <01bcdd6a$1c7060d0$6e7acdcd@odin> <344bb8f2.281656142@news.jump.net> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdd9f$6f8c1040$fb718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.251
Date: 20 Oct 97 21:35:02 GMT
Lines: 150
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!oronet!uniserve!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.251
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143068

[The Curtis-Clone's post hasn't made it here yet, but I'll answer what I can
here along with Van Alstine's spew; i.e., two dolts with one bazooka shell]

Mark Van Alstine  brayed in article
...
> In article <344bb8f2.281656142@news.jump.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
> Curtis) wrote:
> 
> > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> > 
> > Don't you love the chicken-shit thread drift Sabatini does? 

What's this supposed to mean? Is Curtis whining about 'bandwidth' or something
again?

> LOL! It _is_ rather amusing watch Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe"
> Sabatini play the manure spreader! 

Yes, there _are_ so many of you kooks to level!

> > ...Is your room as cluttered as you are making 
> > Alt.revisionism?

"Clutter"? Try a different newsreader Curtis.

> No doubt his mommy makes his pick up his room for public 
> health reasons! 

Are we to assume that _your_ "mommy" let's you keep your sty all messy?

> [snip]
> 
> > >> And again you failed to answer a question with any specifics. 
> > >> I can't discuss unless I know what details you have in your 
> > >> mind. But yes, I differ from many of the people who post here. 
> > >> Yes, there are no agendas that everyone accepts here as far 
> > >> as method or how the historical record is interpreted. You 
> > >> might whish that this were true but you are wrong. It is a 
> > >> denier who thinks that there is.
> > >> 
> > >> Honest enough for you?
> > >
> > >Quite.
> > 
> > Good! I wasn't exactly writing with you in mind but what the heck.

It is rather apparent that you many "Nazis" in mind.

> > >When will this pompous, unmitigated ass ever cease his 
> > >endless smearing, his
> > 
> > I just calls them like I sees 'em, Sabatini.

Then you are in obvious need of spectacles, Curtis.

> And all one can see of Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini' is a
> shiney brown nose! 

Truly? But is seems as if *you* are the one with his nose up Curtis' behind,
Markie-pooh. Trying to win brownie points or something?

> > >unholy quest of tracking down and 'exposing' those heathen 
> > >"deniers" that seem to drive him mad?
> > 
> > Drive me mad, eh, Sabatini? Actually, the deniers I see here,
> > including you, are such easy prey. 

"Prey"? LOL! I strongly recommend that you 'pray' rather than seek "prey".
"Prey", indeed... our big, brave Nazi-hunter Curtis. LOL! Maybe the
Curtis-Clone should apply for a job at the OSI or something?

> No doubt because they were mired up to their (brown) noses in their own
> bullshit! 

Again, it looks like *you* are the one with his head up Curtis' ass,
Markie-pooh. Why _is_ that, eh?

> > >Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist.
> > 
> > Remember.  Propaganda is not necessarily false. Look the word up,
> > Sabatini. I know you have one dictionary.

Oh, I know that! Remember one of my earlier posts about propaganda and the
Nizkult hate site? Should I re-post it for you, Curtis? I think I will...

> Yes, but having one and having the intelligence to _use_ it are two
> different things! In Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's case he
> no dount would be hard pressed to do better than a monkey flipping pages! 

Or, in Markie-pooh's case, a monkey scanning documents and posting them on
Usenet! LOL!

> > > After all, he's made it clear on many
> > >occasions that he can't find any worthwhile discussions in this group (at
> > >least not to his lofty standards).
> > 
> > I keep trying to get you to substantiate your claims. It has been a
> > fruitless but necessary task so far.

"Necessary"? For whom? Your handlers?

> Indeed. The parable of leading a horse (a vociferous ass in Anthony "beat
> 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's case) to water comes to mind....

Yes, we know. But we never could make you drink, Markie-pooh...

> > > So why does he stay here and make us suffer
> > >through his diatribes?
> > 
> > I like to see YOU squirm and make silly replies such as this one.

Why was it "silly", Curtis? The truth bothers you or something?

> Yup. Just call Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini "Worm Boy." He
> _does_ wriggle so! Very amusing. 

Not nearly as amusing as when I get you to gyrate your pelvis, my little
puppet. LOL!

> > I like to see you jump and the moan and groan about how mistreated you
> > are. How's that?

Really? But it seems as if _you're_ the one who's moaning and groaning just
because you can't produce any evidence that adds up to 11 million deaths. Why
is that, I wonder...? Well, not really.

> You forget the part about how Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's
> is so woefully "mistreated" that he would like to see "Nizkooks"
> imprisoned and justifies beating people with a pickaxe handle for having
> the audacity to expose denier hypocrisy, lies, and proganda for what it
> is.

Don't you fret, lil' Markie-pooh. For you, I've got a special treat: a cage at
the local obedience center for unruly pets. LOL! You may even meet some your
pals there!

[.sig dumped in vat of acid]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:13 EDT 1997
Article: 143069 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: [REPOST for Curtis] Nizkor = Propaganda (Details inside!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdda0$1c278870$fb718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.251
Date: 20 Oct 97 21:39:49 GMT
Lines: 33
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!adm.icenet.no!news.edu.sollentuna.se!news.oru.edu!nntp.mid-ga.com!news1.mid-ga.com!gatech!192.26.210.166.MISMATCH!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.251
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143069

Since Nizkor is an organization with "a completely open and visible agenda"
(as stated on their Web site: http://www.nizkor.org/objectives.html), we
are forced to define it, by it's very nature, as nothing short of
propaganda.

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines propaganda as:

2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping
or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause
or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an
effect

Clearly, this is the case with respect to Nizkor. As such, we should take
their so-called 'facts' and other 'evidence' with a grain of salt. The
'proof' that they continuously offer (to anyone willing to listen) is
designed to win one over to their way of thinking.

Nizkor has always been vehemently opposed to "the propaganda campaigns of
racist and antidemocratic individuals and organizations conducted through
computer networks" (source: the Nizkor Web site listed above). Notice how
they conveniently leave out their own propaganda as one to oppose.

Hypocrites.

It is important to note that they are indeed allowed to share their
opinion(s) with others--after all, that is what UseNet newsgroups are for.
However, we have to be wary whenever they make various assertions and
statements of 'fact' (which seems to be more the rule than the exception)
and whenever the Nizkorites belittle or otherwise attempt to smear
someone's name.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:14 EDT 1997
Article: 143081 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: [REPOST 2 for Curtis] Extreme Propaganda: Nizkor's DEOMI Article
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdda1$1bec10a0$fb718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.251
Date: 20 Oct 97 21:46:59 GMT
Lines: 67
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.251
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143081

Another re-post for Curtis' benefit, this time from August 2, 1997, detailing
more of the Nizkult's propaganda-speading.

< begin re-post >

One of Nizkor's latest additions to their ever-expanding "Electronic
Holocaust"
propaganda is an article from the DEFENSE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY MANAGEMENT
INSTITUTE, written by one Chaplain Carlos C. Huerta, a captain by rank.

Judging from the description of this piece (reproduced below), one gets the
impression that this Institute is nothing more than one of those 'sensitivity
training' groups that have profited from the current era of Political
Correctness.

"The Topical Research Intern Program provides the opportunity for
Servicemembers and DoD civilian employees to work on diversity/equal
opportunity projects while on a 30-day tour of duty at the Institute. During
their tour, the interns use a variety of primary and secondary source
materials
to complile a review of data or research pertaining to an issue of importance
to equal opportunity (EO) and equal employment opportunity (EEO) specialists,
supervisors, and other leaders throughout the Services."

Taken from:
http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/american/united-states/department-of-def
e
nse/deomi/holocaust-revisionism.001

The entire article appears to be little more than cheap anti-revisionist
propaganda, and I encourage readers to peruse the whole thing (URL below) and
post their opinions of the piece here. I myself am at a loss for words
regarding the article, but I will comment on the closing paragraph:

"A successful fighting force is a cohesive one, one where all members have
respect for each other's diversity and dignity. Holocaust revisionism has the
potential to destroy that respect. One of the most important missions that
commanders have is the mission to "Protect the Force." Part of that protection
requires that we be aware of movements that might weaken the effectiveness of
our fighting forces. Our service members are recruited from society and, as a
consequence, we inherit the prejudices and problems of the society. Holocaust
revisionism is a real force, such as racism, hatred, or discrimination, that
must be dealt with. Not to` deal with it is not to give our members in uniform
the support that they need to defend this Nation."

Taken from:
http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/american/united-states/department-of-def
e
nse/deomi/holocaust-revisionism.006

I'm not an American, so I really have no business discussing their military,
but I'd like to ask a question regarding this last paragraph. Might not
differing politics amongst servicemen be an equal threat to the "cohesiveness"
of the American "fighting forces" such as he claims revisionism is?

I don't know, folks, but they get any cheaper when it comes to
anti-revisionist
propaganda?

For the entire, ridiculous affair, please jump to the following URL:

http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/american/united-states/department-of-def
e
nse/deomi

< end re-post >



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:15 EDT 1997
Article: 143083 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Theological Declaration of Barmen
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <01bcdc4f$42e2d3e0$e2a2cdcd@odin>  <01bcdcb2$ffb0fd90$d856eccd@odin>  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdda7$7c7c7760$fb718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.251
Date: 20 Oct 97 22:32:41 GMT
Lines: 51
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.eecs.umich.edu!zdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.251
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143083

Mark (aka Titania, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine  brayed in
article ...
> In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > # Daniel Keren  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > ## (Not being a hapless lamb) != (calling people "mad beasts").
> > ##
> > ## Maybe writing in pseudo-C code is the only way to approach
> > ## these X-generation kids :-).
> > 
> > #  #define TRUE !0
> > #
> > #  #ifndef what_is_relationship_between_christian_and_
> > #  callingpeoplemadbeasts
> > #  #define prompt_for_explanation = TRUE
> > #  #endif
> > 
> > Heck, junior! You're talking to an old timer Fortran
> > programmer here! Have mercy! :-)
> 
> It's easy. What Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini meant was: 

You haven't a clue, little puppet.

> "Duh?"

Titania the Savage Fairy (Mark Van Alstine) is trying to speak English again.
Free clue: you'll have to wipe the spittle and drool from your maw first,
Markie-pooh.

> [snip]

[silly .sig and patented VanSlander (tm) beaten with a pickaxe handle]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:15 EDT 1997
Article: 143098 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddb2$490542d0$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 20 Oct 97 23:50:02 GMT
Lines: 99
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143098

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net>...
> "Richard G. Phillips"  wrote:
> 
> >I have been puzzled by this back-and-forth we have been 
> >having about procuring the documents I have asked for:
> >
> >Phillips says: "OK, get me the documents."
> >Mock, Curtis or Ferree replies: "No, Phillips. YOU get them."
> 
> You are an adult right? You can acquire a library card?
> 
> >So I ask myself: WHY are these people continually balking 
> >at a little task of research which they themselves insist 
> >would be a trivial one ("Just write to ..."), a task which if 
> >successful would put in their hands documents that would 
> >largely demolish my case? God knows, every one of them 
> >is pretty passionate on the subject of the Holocaust and, 
> >God knows, they would love nothing better than to remove 
> >Phillips from the face of the earth, (rhetorically speaking of 
> >course).  So why do they refuse to undertake the very 
> >modest task of research that would bring that glorious day 
> >to fruition?
> 
> I told you why, because the research on a personal level will be
> instructive for you. It'll be a lesson in library arts. 

Gosh, isn't Curtis such a nice fellow? Instead of answering the question with
some substantive evidence, Curtis decides to help some guy with the library.
Evasion noted, Curtis. LOL!

> Plus it'll teach about how history is written.

What would you know about that, Curtis? Since you are the one pretending to
know all about how "history is written", why don't you post your credentials?
In fact, I insist. I'll be waiting.

> >Might it be that, deep down, they know perfectly well that 
> >the documents I demand CANNOT be obtained.
> 
> Then go to the library and prove us wrong. 

LOL! Curtis exposes _himself_ as a "denier"!

> It's really quite simple.

If it's that simple, then when can we assume you'll get back to us with the
results? You do have a library card, do you not? Or do you need help with
that? LOL!

> Are you so upset that you appear lazy and silly that you had 
> to start this thread to buck yourself up?

Uh-oh! Now you went and did it, Mr. Phillips! You've upset Curtis with your
inconsiderate creation of a new thread. As anyone who has bothered to read
Curtis' whini...er, I mean posts, you _must_ know that Curtis loathes what he
calls "thread drift". Shame on you, Mr. Phillips!

LOL!

> >  If this is the case then, wouldn't it be much better for 
> >them if, instead of THEY having to confess that the
> >records cannot be obtained, they put the ball in my 
> >court. Then when I report back that they cannot be 
> >obtained, they will have outs by the dozen.
> 
> Well, we have been to the library and have done the work. 

Prove it. Show us the plans.

> How about you?
> 
> >"Are you sure you wrote to the write institution."
> >"Are you sure you addressed the envelope correctly."
> >"Are you sure you asked for the right document."
> >"Did you really expect to "score" the first time. In matters of this
> >sort, one has to be persistent."
> 
> Actually, we expect you to do nothing. Then after about 6 mos. we'll
> post the material. 

Is this an admission that you *do not*, in fact, have these plans? Why, I'm
shocked! Shocked, I say!

>  Meanwhile you appear lazy. We are in no hurry. 

Who is this "we" you are referring to? Last week you were blathering about
have no clue about this mysterious "we". Have you now discovered who (or what)
they are? Will you share with us your new-found knowledge?

> >So you see, gentlemen, Phillips is on to your little racket, 
> >and all your exhortations, manipulations, and insults won't 
> >do you a damn bit of good.
> 
> Phillips is just a lazy dolt. what more is to be said?

How about this:  You haven't shown how *you* are not a "lazy dolt", too,
Curtis. Prove it to us. Show us the plans.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:16 EDT 1997
Article: 143105 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs. Mock IV
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34495A46.6AA5@earthlink.net>  <344BBD3F.79E1@earthlink.net> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddb4$ca6e4f90$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 00:07:56 GMT
Lines: 37
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!adm.icenet.no!news.edu.sollentuna.se!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143105

Mark (aka Titania the Savage Fairy, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine
 brayed piteously in article
...
> In article <344BBD3F.79E1@earthlink.net>, rgphill@earthlink.net wrote:

[snip]

> That hardly comes as a suprise given that Phillips is merely a
> hypocritical blustering windbag of a putz!

Aw, isn't that sweet? Markie-pooh is trying to make friends again.

> To recap: Clearly, Bischoff was refering to L.Keller 1 of Krema 
> II as a homicidal gassing cellar and not a gassing cellar for 
> fumigation. None of Phillips's desperate blowing smoke from 
> his butt to avoid dealing with this fact changes it one iota.

Right. Just like all your shouting, foot-stomping, chest-beating and frothing
at the mouth doesn't change the fact there is no unsubjective evidence that
adds up to 11 million deaths. Sorry about that, old bean.

[silly .sig "vaporized" with 'giant death ray']

Do not forget:

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:17 EDT 1997
Article: 143116 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 66 Questions JEWS Don't Want People to Think About
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3440F56C.4785@somewhere.com>  <34475dfe.306149423@news.mindspring.com>  <62grmm$7q5$2@morgoth.sfu.ca>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddb8$1d71a7c0$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 00:31:45 GMT
Lines: 41
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143116

Yehuda Igor Yeroslavski  wrote in article
<62grmm$7q5$2@morgoth.sfu.ca>...

[snip]

[In reply to 'William Wallace']
> Fucking Nazi pigs do not have brains for civilized response, maybe 
> he can use arms, but against children and pregnant women only. 

Um, no. That would be the so-called 'Defense' forces of the Israeli terrorist
state and some of the rabid fanatics who populate it. For evidence, please
visit the following page to see examples of these brave, courageous fighters'
handiwork (but bring a barf bag):

http://www.geocities.com/~intifada_2000/tour/AmarEmeera.htm

You are advised to take one of the 'tours' offered at the site. You can start
this tour at:

http://www.geocities.com/~intifada_2000/tour/tour-01a.htm

by clicking the "A graphic tour of broken bodies" link therein.

> I wish him good training in one of the military camps they are 
> running. Maybe they will teach new recruites how to properly 
> commit suicide when fallen in the hands of jews, and show on 
> him as an example.
> I=P

I suppose even an act as lowly and sinful as suicide may well be a viable
solution considering the alternatives:

http://www.geocities.com/~intifada_2000/tour/SalemSafi.htm

Don't talk to anyone about "Nazi pigs" you bastard Zionist scum. After all,
there seems to be little difference between the Nazi's "Master Race" ideology
and the Zionists' "Chosen People" crap.

Are you really proud of what you animals are doing? Is the prize really worth
the price?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:17 EDT 1997
Article: 143117 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk> <3431b79d$12$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <01bcdd6a$1c7060d0$6e7acdcd@odin> <62gv2m$evn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddbd$bb19d100$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 01:11:59 GMT
Lines: 22
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143117

Charles R.L. Power  wrote in article
<62gv2m$evn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> On 20 Oct 97 15:13:09 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> >Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist. After all, he's made it 
> >clear on many occasions that he can't find any worthwhile 
> >discussions in this group (at least not to his lofty standards). 
> >So why does he stay here and make us suffer through his 
> >diatribes?
> 
> Who is forcing you to read this newsgroup? And if you do insist 
> on participating to that extent, who is preventing you from 
> filtering out Mike Curtis's messages? As far as I know, he uses 
> a consistent posting ID, so filtering out his messages should be 
> simplicity itself.

But these are the *very same questions* I asked Curtis a few days ago! See his
answers and perhaps that will help shed some light for you.

[.sig left to rot in a back alley]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:18 EDT 1997
Article: 143123 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Still more misuses of the Holocaust. (Curtis! Pay attention!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddbf$e057be30$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 01:27:20 GMT
Lines: 22
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.cs.ucla.edu!news.greennet.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143123

The American Jewish Committee (AJC) appears to have convinced American
senators into pressuring the German government into paying "pensions" to
'Holocaust survivors' (how many can there possibly be?).

The following Web page contains a scan of a recent full-page ad appearing in
the New York Times:

http://www.ddc.net/ygg/new/senate.gif

It may be difficult to make out, but the text clearly indicates that these
"pensions" are to be paid to "Jewish" survivors only. I wonder how the
Gypsies, for example, are going to round up the political clout necessary to
get their own "pension" monies...?

But the important question here is why, exactly, are American senators being
asked to pressure the German government? Shouldn't Israel be doing this? Or
better yet, the respective governments of the "Eastern European Jews"
mentioned in the ad?

Seems to me more of the old guilt-bucks ploy the Holocaust has been
mendaciously used for for years.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:19 EDT 1997
Article: 143131 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk> <3431b79d$12$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <01bcdd6a$1c7060d0$6e7acdcd@odin> <62gv2m$evn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <01bcddbd$bb19d100$6e55eccd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddc7$ebde0e00$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 02:24:59 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143131

Mark (aka Titania the Savage Fairy, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine
 brayed in article
...
> In article <01bcddbd$bb19d100$6e55eccd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Charles R.L. Power  wrote in article
> > <62gv2m$evn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> > > On 20 Oct 97 15:13:09 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini"
> > >  wrote:
> > > 
> > > >Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist. After all, he's made it 
> > > >clear on many occasions that he can't find any worthwhile 
> > > >discussions in this group (at least not to his lofty standards). 
> > > >So why does he stay here and make us suffer through his 
> > > >diatribes?
> > > 
> > > Who is forcing you to read this newsgroup? And if you do insist 
> > > on participating to that extent, who is preventing you from 
> > > filtering out Mike Curtis's messages? As far as I know, he uses 
> > > a consistent posting ID, so filtering out his messages should be 
> > > simplicity itself.
> > 
> > But these are the *very same questions* I asked Curtis a few days 
> > ago! See his answers and perhaps that will help shed some light for 
> > you.
> 
> Well, they certainly went right over Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe"
> Sabatini's head! But that is to be expected. Yapping little denier lapdogs
> are pretty low to the ground....

The better to laugh at and kick around burly hyenas such as Titania the Savage
Fairy here!

[silly .sig and ridiculous VanSlander (tm) fined, jailed and beaten]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:19 EDT 1997
Article: 143137 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: The mendacious mis-uses of the Holocaust (was: Yet another round of Gobbledi-talk (tm))
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk> <01bcdb3f$f845d540$dc718bcf@odin> <344bc479.10700401@news.jump.net> <01bcdbdf$83599f50$a2b113cc@odin>  <344AEA32.3289C049@aol.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddcc$41758920$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 02:55:59 GMT
Lines: 69
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!adm.icenet.no!news.edu.sollentuna.se!news.oru.edu!nntp.mid-ga.com!news1.mid-ga.com!news.pagesat.net!news.he.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143137

[Daniel Keren's message never made it through, so I'm replying from this post]

Bill Toady  wrote in article <344AEA32.3289C049@aol.com>...
> Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > # Mike Curtis  wrote:
> > ## "Anthony Sabatini" wrote:
> >
> > ### Israel claims it needs to protect themselves from evil
> > ### Arabs and other enemies. After all, we all know what
> > ### happened the last time: the Holocaust.
> >
> > ##  I think Danny Keren covered this pretty well.
> >
> > # Where? When? Give me a message-id or something.
> >
> > My reply consisted of the following:
> >
> > 1) Israel did not have to evoke the Holocaust in order to
> > convince anyone what the intentions of its neighbors were;
> > they said it themselves, very clearly. For instance:
> >
> >   TIME, June 2 1967, p. 20: Damascus radio called on all Arabs
> >  to "undertake the liberation battle that will tear the hearts
> >  from the bodies of the hateful Jews and trample them in the dust".

What prompted these Arabs to say that?

> >   TIME, June 2 1967, p. 20: "At week's end Nasser [then Egyptian
> >  Pres.] once more went to the radio to say that "any war with
> >  Israel will be total, and the objective will be to destroy Israel".

Why would the Arabs say such a hateful thing?

> >   Churchill and Churchill, p. 52, quoting Shukairy (then PLO
> >  Chief): "the surviving Jews would be helped to return to their
> >  native countries, but my estimation is that none will survive".

Why not? Why would Shukairy make such a claim?

> > 2) The very basic flaw with the claim "the US helped Israel
> > because of the Holocaust", is that the US hardly helped Israel
> > during the most difficult years of its existence - the period
> > of the 1948 war, when Israel was in serious danger of being
> > conquered by the invading Arab armies. The US maintained a
> > strict embargo on selling arms to the Middle East; Israel
> > got all its weapons from other sources. As a matter of fact,
> > until the late 1960's, nearly all of Israel's weapons were
> > of French and British make.

That's fine, but this issue is not only one of the U.S. helping Israel. You
are right that the States didn't help them out at that time, but you clearly
indicate that other countries did. At that time, England was still arguably
_the_ 'super-power'. Now that England's might has waned and the U.S.'s waxed,
the latter seem to have taken up the cause. Why?

> > The US began supplying Israel with weapons during that period,
> > and, without doubt, the main motivation was to build Israel
> > as a stronghold against the USSR, which was massively arming
> > and training Egypt and Syria. The old "domino principle".

Oh, come on! The point here is that the Holocaust was used as an example of
what happened to Jews when they did not have a country to call their own they
could retreat to in times of danger. Now whether this danger came from the
Nazis or the USSR is largely irrelevant.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:20 EDT 1997
Article: 143138 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Still more misuses of the Holocaust. (Curtis! Pay attention!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcddbf$e057be30$6e55eccd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddc9$697dfa40$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 02:35:38 GMT
Lines: 64
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!News.NetUSA.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143138

Mark (aka Titania the Savage Fairy, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine
 shrilly brayed in article
...
> In article <01bcddbf$e057be30$6e55eccd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > The American Jewish Committee (AJC) appears to have 
> > convinced American senators into pressuring the German 
> > government into paying "pensions" to 'Holocaust survivors'
> > (how many can there possibly be?).
> > 
> > The following Web page contains a scan of a recent full-page 
> > ad appearing in the New York Times:
> > 
> > http://www.ddc.net/ygg/new/senate.gif
> > 
> > It may be difficult to make out, but the text clearly indicates 
> > that these "pensions" are to be paid to "Jewish" survivors only.... 
> 
> Kinda blows holes in the denier claim that Germany paid 
> reperations for those Jews _killed_ in the Holocaust! 

A non sequitur.

> Oops.

Indeed. But don't worry, though. We've all seen you make far more ridiculous
blunders (much to our amusement, of course).

> [snip]

But I wonder why Titania the Savage Fairy here declined to answer the
questions I posed...? Well, not really. Here they are again:

< begin restoration of text cravenly snipped by Markie-pooh >

I wonder how the Gypsies, for example, are going to round up the political
clout necessary to get their own "pension" monies...?

But the important question here is why, exactly, are American senators being
asked to pressure the German government? Shouldn't Israel be doing this? Or
better yet, the respective governments of the "Eastern European Jews"
mentioned in the ad?

Seems to me more of the old guilt-bucks ploy the Holocaust has been
mendaciously used for for years.

< end restoration of text cravenly snipped by Markie-pooh >

[.sig and VanSlander (tm) set adrift in the endless ocean of air between
Markie-pooh's ears]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this yapping hyena, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:21 EDT 1997
Article: 143227 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.flash.net!206.150.193.249.MISMATCH!newsfeed.sgi.net!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Date: 21 Oct 1997 19:04:47 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <01bcde53$817a0280$8ca2cdcd@odin>
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <01bcddb2$490542d0$6e55eccd@odin> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.140
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143227

Mark Van Alstine  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bcddb2$490542d0$6e55eccd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> > <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net>...
> > > "Richard G. Phillips"  wrote:

[much of Markie-pooh's incessant chattering done away with]

> > > Are you so upset that you appear lazy and silly that you had 
> > > to start this thread to buck yourself up?
> > 
> > Uh-oh! Now you went and did it, Mr. Phillips! You've upset 
> > Curtis with your inconsiderate creation of a new thread. As 
> > anyone who has bothered to read Curtis' whini...er, I mean 
> > posts, you _must_ know that Curtis loathes what he calls 
> > "thread drift". Shame on you, Mr. Phillips!
> 
> Especially when said "thread drift" is accompanied by such specious
> _mental_ drift! 

And who should show in such a "specious _mental_ drift" up but my very own
little puppet, Markie-pooh!

> > LOL!
> 
> ROTFL!

Oh, indeed!  :-)

> > > >  If this is the case then, wouldn't it be much better for 
> > > >them if, instead of THEY having to confess that the
> > > >records cannot be obtained, they put the ball in my 
> > > >court. Then when I report back that they cannot be 
> > > >obtained, they will have outs by the dozen.
> > > 
> > > Well, we have been to the library and have done the work. 
> > 
> > Prove it. Show us the plans.
> 
> Already cited. 

Cited, schmited! Show us these plans. I know you have a scanner (or at least
access to one), Markie-pooh. Why not just scan these plans in and post them
here? (JPEG format preferred.)

[the rest of Titania the Savage Fairy's pathetic bleating snipped, including
his petulant VanSlander (tm)]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:21 EDT 1997
Article: 143229 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Keren lies yet again! (was: Holocaust vs. Final Solution)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3429b27e$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bcd77b$86a01a80$de74cdcd@odin>  <01bcd7fa$87007040$440bcdcd@odin>  <34446a5c.94057028@news.hollinet.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcd9dc$804e7830$5456eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.86.84
Date: 16 Oct 97 02:41:46 GMT
Lines: 54
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news.cs.utwente.nl!zdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.86.84
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143229

[Keren-Krap (tm) hasn't made it here yet, so I'm replying from this message]

Michael  wrote in article
<34446a5c.94057028@news.hollinet.com>...
> On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:46:23 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> >"Anthony Sabatini"  writes:
> 
> ># Liar Keren, post the message wherein I ever claimed
> ># "that the notion 'The Final Solution' was invented
> ># after the war".
> 
> >It's clear from your post, in which you wrote:

Yes. It is clear that you are an insane, pathological liar.

> >    "Final Solution", "Holocaust"; this sounds like the buzzwords
> >    and catch-phrases of marketers! There is no need for both
> >    these terms other than to sell more movie tickets. Very
> >    melodramatic, but really unnecessary.

So where do I say that the term was invented after the war? Clearly, I do not.
You have once again shown your penchant for exaggerating and lying. Further,
Fergus was right about you with regards to your alleged mind-reading
abilities. But the important thing here is to show exactly what kind of knave
you are, Ganymede. You are a liar. You lie all the time. Then, when confronted
with the truth and/or an explanation, you cover your ears and shout foul
names. Seek help, Keren, for you truly need it!

> What is clear is that the Shameless Necrophiliac Keren cannot distinguish
> between truth and lies. Classic psychopath.

Yup.

> >
> 
> ># Failure to do so will once again prove you are a liar, and a
> ># most blatant and arrogant one at that. Must be that chuptzah
> ># crap.
> 
> >Do you want to be an arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious brat all
> >your life, or do you want to move ahead? It's your decision
> >and your decision only.

What's all this about, lil' Danny? Ganymede must be sore 'cause he got caught
in another of his baseless lies.

> Beats being a psychopathic Necrophiliac. No place for you to go but up.

Well let's just hope Keren starts "going up" real soon now.

[.sigs snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:22 EDT 1997
Article: 143246 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.30
Date: 21 Oct 97 22:08:25 GMT
Lines: 25
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.162.30
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143246

Richard G. Phillips  wrote in article
<344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net>...
> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > In article <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>, rgphill@earthlink.net wrote:

[...]

> > > Look, sonny. I was using libraries long before you ever had 
> > > a nipple in your mouth.
>
> > Uh huh. Using libraries to come out of the rain in don't count, 
> > Phillips. (This assumes, of course, that Phillips is _smart_ enough 
> > to come in out of the rain....)
>
> I am wondering if some helpful soul out there will supply the subtitles
> I need to make some sense of what this semi-coherent twerp is trying
> to say.

It's really quite simple. Van Alstine has got any goddamn plans or evidence of
any sort, so he's reverting to his bestial nature and engaging in ad hominem.

Come now, Mr. Phillips! I mean, after reading even three or four of
Markie-pooh's guttural braying sessions I'd think you would have realized this
by now!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:23 EDT 1997
Article: 143257 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <01bcdd6a$1c7060d0$6e7acdcd@odin> <34552a43.2592695@news.demon.co.uk>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143257

Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<34552a43.2592695@news.demon.co.uk>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net>...
> >> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >
> >[...]
>
> Lots of silly self-important meaningless Curtis talk snipped.

You got _that_ straight!
 
> >> Honest enough for you?
> >
> >Quite.
> >
> >When will this pompous, unmitigated ass ever cease his endless 
> >smearing, his unholy quest of tracking down and 'exposing' those 
> >heathen "deniers" that seem to drive him mad?
> >
> >Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist. After all, he's made it clear 
> >on many occasions that he can't find any worthwhile discussions 
> >in this group (at least not to his lofty standards). So why does he 
> >stay here and make us suffer through his diatribes?
> 
> To improve us all by his mere presence - didn't you know? He waves 
> his words over us and goes to bed happy. We, basking in the effulgent 
> glow of his wonderfulness are supposed to be changed - in the 
> twinkling of an eye we shall all be changed!
>
> Either that or he's just a fool.

LOL! I don't really have to tell you which now, do I?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:23 EDT 1997
Article: 143293 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 66 Questions JEWS Don't Want People to Think About
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3440F56C.4785@somewhere.com>  <34475dfe.306149423@news.mindspring.com>  <62grmm$7q5$2@morgoth.sfu.ca> <01bcddb8$1d71a7c0$6e55eccd@odin> <344d460f$2$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143293

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344d460f$2$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bcddb8$1d71a7c0$6e55eccd@odin>, on 10/21/97 
>    at 12:31 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:

Why do you not indicate snipped text?

> > Don't talk to anyone about "Nazi pigs" you bastard Zionist 
> > scum. After all, there seems to be little difference between 
> > the Nazi's "Master Race" ideology and the Zionists' "Chosen 
> > People" crap.
> 
> Apart from the fact that this is untrue 

Really? How so? Explain the differences.

> and irrelevant to the Holocaust,

How was Yehuda Igor Yeroslavski's post relevant to the Holocaust?

> please tell me why you are speaking in dissonance from the 
> position of the Church on the Jews.

What position would that be? Specifically, that is.

[.sig stamped on]

Did you see the pictures, Gord? Did you take the tour? If not, take it now by
click on the "A graphic tour of broken bodies" link at the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/~intifada_2000/tour/tour-01a.htm

The Holocaust is one thing because it happened over 50 years ago and nothing
can be done for it now. The quasi-'genocide' against the Palestinians is
happening here and now. Why are you not up in arms about it in the same way
you are with the Holocaust?


From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 09:16:24 EDT 1997
Article: 143384 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Finsten's Bull-poopoo
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bccecf$447dab90$840bcdcd@odin> <01bccee7$4fcc0830$237acdcd@odin>  <01bcd026$d05afd90$797acdcd@odin>  <01bcd5fa$93054e30$cea2cdcd@odin>  <01bcd663$428db1e0$7456eccd@odin> <34403CFB.93C4EF5F@nbnet.nb.ca> <3441354c$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3441A122.5C5FCA4D@nbnet.nb.ca> <01bcda42$ccc090c0$757acdcd@odin> <344669BD.C925FEB7@nbnet.nb.ca> <01bcda71$f2862b10$be718bcf@odin> 
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143384

Mark (aka Titania, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine  brayed in
article ...
> In article <01bcda71$f2862b10$be718bcf@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Keith Morrison  wrote in article
> > <344669BD.C925FEB7@nbnet.nb.ca>...
> > > Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > > > Well, let's see.  Dr. Keren has a PhD and is a 
> > > > > > > mathematician.  Last time I checked, mathematics 
> > > > > > > is a science.  That would make Dr. Keren a scientist.
> > > > > > > That would make him a member of the scientific 
> > > > > > > community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Save your breath, Keith.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, I just want to judge his reaction when he realizes that 
> > > > > *I* am a member of the scientific community too...
> > > > 
> > > > You're expecting fawning praise perhaps? Look, Keith, I'm not 
> > > > duly impressed nor have I ever claimed you were (or weren't) 
> > > > anything. The issue at hand is Keren. Why have you involved 
> > > > yourself as part of the subject?
> > > 
> > > Because I enjoy watching asinine twits such as yourself make utter
> > > fools of themselves.
> 
> [snip]

Look at what the cowardly Titania snipped:

< begin restoration of craven snip >

LOL! Poor Keith! He must've been insulted by my less-than-worshipful
admiration of his, er, 'credentials'.

If any are making "fools" of themselves here, it is most certainly those who
sheepishly try to protect their fantastic dogma with great fervor. IOW, it
would be you and your co-religionists (of the Holy Perpetual Holocaust, "Never
Forgive! Never Forget!" faith) who are the "asinine twits", doofus. But you
knew that already.

< end restoration of craven snip >

A rather apt description! That must be why Markie-pooh is all burly and bent
outta shape again! LOL!

> > Now go bark up someone else's tree, 'Professor' Peewee.
> 
> More penis envy from Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini.

LOL! Markie-pooh hoists himself by his own petard with yet another
penile-related comment! (This guy's just too much! But then again, I really do
so enjoy pulling this little puppet's strings!)

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) "vaporized" with 'giant death ray']

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:02 EDT 1997
Article: 143416 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143416

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >Jared  wrote in article
> ><34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com>...
> >> On 16 Oct 97 15:08:06 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini"
> >>  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
>  
> >> >on your tippy-toes in order as to not insult their tender 
> >> >sensibilities. After all, lacking any other arguments, many 
> >> >Nizkooks and their ilk fall back to mock indignation and 
> >> >feigned shock, moral outrage that anyone would *dare*
> >> >question their beliefs, etc. It gets old real fast, though...
> >> >
> >> >[snip]
> >> 
> >> There is no evidence here that anyone's beliefs are being 
> >> questioned. The numbers quoted are clearly not believed by 
> >> deniers, nor is there any indication that they are part of what 
> >> Mr. Sabatini calls the "sacred dogma" of people who believe 
> >> the Holocaust occurred. A surprising number of people are 
> >> making a surprisingly negligable amount of sense.
> >
> >No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust occurred.
> 
> No one! How about Joe Bellinger? Andrew Allen? Mark Raven? 
> Michael the Nationalist? Matt Giwer? Phillips?

I don't believe any of these people have claimed the Holocaust did not occur
at all.

> >The point of contention is the actual number of deaths. So far, 
> >there hasn't been a great deal of solid (and scientific!) evidence 
> >that leads to the 11 million figure.
> 
> This is your point of ignorance. 

You keep saying that but you've yet to show any substantial proof for you
magic numbers. Strange, that... Well, not really.

> You haven't read one iota of information concerning how these 
> numbers were gathered and you obviously do not care what 
> historians or scientists tell you. You reject, out of hand, solid 
> and scientific evidence that was used.

You haven't a friggin' clue what I read or looked at and what I haven't.
You're just a cheap smear artist and/or propagandist.

> >Thus, the term "denier" is a misnomer at best, an intentional 
> >smear (and possible strawman argument).
> 
> No it is nopt misused. It isn't misused at all in your case. 

Define "denier", Curtis. Be specific and clear. Then we'll see just how much
of an ass you and your fellow travelers really are. You dolts are cheap
propagandists. You fool no one.

> >As for the "sacred dogma" bit, it is in direct response to 
> >those zealots and fanatics who get all rabid and burly at 
> >anyone who would dare question their beliefs. IOW, it's 
> >very apt under the circumstance here in this newsgroup.
> 
> Look in the mirror, Sabatini.

I see a rather handsome fellow there, Curtis.  ;-)  But when I read you and
your pals' posts, I see smear artists spewing half-truths, outright lies and a
never-ending stream of propaganda.




From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:03 EDT 1997
Article: 143425 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Sam Spade-Phelps
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
References: 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf0c$94161cd0$807acdcd@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.homosexuality:113486 soc.culture.german:63364 soc.culture.jewish:213693 alt.revisionism:143425

Eric Hoffer  wrote in article
...
> Don't forget about the Phelpses who are harassing Jews, bashing gays 
> and pretending the Holocaust never happened under DIFFERENT fake names in 
> alt.revisionism:
> 
> john_davis1@juno.com aka Tavish@spam.not.net (REAL address is 
> phibes@phoenix.net) THIS GUY IS THE WORST OF THE WORST!!!!!
> 
> nationalist@juno.com
> 
> fafner13@aol.com
> 
> whiterev@aol.com
> 
> "Joseph Bellinger"
> 
> "Jeffrey G. Brown"@whatever remailer he's using currently
> 
> "Matt Giwer"
> 
> "Anthony Sabatini"
> 
> Probables:
> 
> michael@juno.com
> 
> NWSPP

[snip]

You're a crazy loon, Hoffer. You mention the names of *different* people with
diverse politics and ideas here. But tell us, what is your proof that all
these names you've given about are really the same person? Do you know how to
read a message header? If you did, you wouldn't be opening your mouth to spout
such gibberish.

Crazy fruit loop.




From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:03 EDT 1997
Article: 143426 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Answers to M. Curtis part 1.
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <34562a56.2611826@news.demon.co.uk> <34500769.432838158@news.jump.net>
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Message-ID: <01bcdf02$f99743e0$807acdcd@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143426

[Mr. McClelland's post hasn't made it here yet so I'll use Curtis' pithy reply
to respond to both]

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<34500769.432838158@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> 
> Oh well, here we go again:

Yes, you are rather tenacious, aren't you? Especially when you're in the
wrong. No surprise there, really.

[...]

> >>McClelland doesn't list a thing.
> >
> >I frequently have. You seem to think that I should play some little
> >game by your rules. I can't think why you think I should want to.

Because that's the game Nizkooks like to play. Somehow or other, they feel the
need to be 'in control' of the discussion because they know they'll lose
otherwise. No big secret there.

> I don't normally read what you right for you are most frequently
> complaining about how and what language people use when they post.

And yet Curtis has taken every opportunity to "read what [Fergus] rights
[sic]" and respond with baleful accusations and all manner of strawmen
arguments. He has frequently demanded definitions of Fergus but has himself
repeatedly ignored requests to do the same.

> I ask you to list this information so I can learn. In a typical denier
> fashion you refuse and suggest you already have. 

You're the one who's been refusing to define terms and "list information",
Curtis. Tell us what a "denier" is *exactly*. We're still waiting.

> Reminds me of Bellinger tactic 1a.

Oh, look! This seems like it's gonna be a YANC (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy)
post! What fun!

> >>>>>>>>>No, couldn't be bothered, you are being silly.
> >
> >There's my answer to you Mr Historian, you obviously failed to
> >understand it the first time.

Curtis makes noise because Fergus refused to answer his questions. I wonder if
Fergus is now allowed to do the same with Curtis? But, seeing as how Curtis
continues to demonstrate his hypocrisy and double-standards, I won't hold my
breath.

> I understand Bellinger tactic 1a very well. The impression I get is
> that you haven't the knowledge to support your assertions but you will
> get all snippy. This is my gain and your loss.

Works both ways, Curtis, even though you might not like it.

> >>In fact, he shows that his intent is not history. I suspect that like
> >>Satatini, he doesn't know any.
> >
> >None at all of course. What a stinging rebuke that insult fails to be.
> 
> Again you haven't answered the question I asked so what am I to
> assume? Also you have been winging your way to Sabatini's side and 
> he is siding up next to you. How quaint you two appear.

Yup, it's a YANC (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy)! How exciting! How
utterly...boring. Grow up, Curtis. You whine and complain any time someone
associates you with the Nizkult, so why are you protesting this? I mean, is
there a reason besides your well-known hypocrisy?

> >What a puffed up "historian" you are Mike - or should I descend to
> >your petty level and start calling you Curtis?
> 
> Suit yourself. You are the one looking pretty shabby in this
> conversation.

Not really. Seems to me that *you* are the one that's running away, playing
your silly Nizkook game of Gobbledi-talk (tm).

[...]

> [snipped this guy being provocative.]

Curtis is one to talk! LOL! (This guy's just too much!)

> >>The public view? Sorry but the public view is that 6 million 
> >>Jews were murdered by the Nazis during WW2. Very few 
> >>know about soap and shrunken head and lampshades made 
> >>of human skin. Most of them don't even know all the names 
> >>of the camps and what went on there. 
> >
> >Says you! You do a lot of that, seems to show a degree of insecurity.
> >But you failed to answer the question - what are you doing here?
> 
> Telling you about the knowledge I get from the people I speak with
> about this subject.

Prove it, Curtis. Prove that "few know about soap and shrunken head and
lampshades made of human skin." You keep calling other people ignorant,
Curtis, but how come these same people have heard those particular horror
stories? You haven't a leg to stand on this one, and I think you know it well.

[...]

> >>When these reports are compared to other unconnected
> >>material such as documents, Nazi testimony, pictures, blue 
> >>prints, other survivor testimony, liberation testimony, Nazi 
> >>records, diaries, letters and so on, they are then validated 
> >>or not. 
> >
> >Agreed.
> 
> I did answer after all.

Such hubris! Mayhap Curtis is naught but a blowhard trying to get his kicks
here?

[...]

> >And "You have been here long enough to know who and what 
> >the" Nizkorites are. 
> 
> That are an "it?"  Not ebveryone who posts here and disagrees 
> with you is associated with Nizkor. Drop the bogeyman claims. 
> Cowards do that.

Curtis is one to talk! The fool's been yammering about YANCs all this time!

[...]

> [snipped]
> 
> >This is another
> >>example for you of your povoking intent.
> >
> >What? You call me a denier - which you then retract by your 
> >"The rest of does not include you" and finally admit with your 
> >"I cannot lie any longer you are a denier" - and _I_ am being 
> > provocative?

Seems pretty clear to me. Curtis admits to having lied, no doubt so he could
get his jollies here in the newsgroup.

> Then do not post like a denier. I was trying to have a benefit of the
> doubt about you. I changed my mind based on how you post. This 
> post hasn't changed my mind at all. 

You are too blinded by your own light to "change your mind", Curtis. You're a
fanatic whether you believe it or not. IOW, reality check, dude!

> [snipped spelling attack. I wish I could care]

You are too busy "caring" about ousting "deniers" and hunting-down "Nazis" to
"care" about anything else. No surprise there.

[...]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:04 EDT 1997
Article: 143449 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Sam Spade-Phelps
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
References:  <01bcdf0c$94161cd0$807acdcd@odin> <62lir2$8v5$9@news.smart.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.homosexuality:113517 soc.culture.german:63370 soc.culture.jewish:213734 alt.revisionism:143449

Gary Rumain  wrote in article
<62lir2$8v5$9@news.smart.net>...
> In soc.culture.jewish Anthony Sabatini  wrote:
> : Eric Hoffer  wrote in article
> : ...
> : > Don't forget about the Phelpses who are harassing Jews, bashing gays 
> : > and pretending the Holocaust never happened under DIFFERENT fake names
in 
> : > alt.revisionism:
> : > 
> : > john_davis1@juno.com aka Tavish@spam.not.net (REAL address is 
> : > phibes@phoenix.net) THIS GUY IS THE WORST OF THE WORST!!!!!
> : > 
> : > nationalist@juno.com
> : > 
> : > fafner13@aol.com
> : > 
> : > whiterev@aol.com
> : > 
> : > "Joseph Bellinger"
> : > 
> : > "Jeffrey G. Brown"@whatever remailer he's using currently
> : > 
> : > "Matt Giwer"
> : > 
> : > "Anthony Sabatini"
> : > 
> : > Probables:
> : > 
> : > michael@juno.com
> : > 
> : > NWSPP
> 
> : [snip]
> 
> : You're a crazy loon, Hoffer. You mention the names of *different* people
with
> : diverse politics and ideas here. But tell us, what is your proof that all
> : these names you've given about are really the same person? 
> 
> He never said they were the same peron, but that they all were doing the
> same sort of things (i.e., behaving in a "Phelpsian" manner).
> 
> Re-read the post.

I did. He claims all those people are "Phelpses". Hoffer has been confronted
many times regarding his smears, lies and accusations, all to little or no
effect. He's a fruit loop.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:05 EDT 1997
Article: 143450 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net> <19971022181200.OAA02211@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf2c$8c03ddf0$ae56eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.86.174
Date: 22 Oct 97 20:57:24 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143450

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net>...
> fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
> 
> >>Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
> >>From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
> >>Date: Wed, Oct 22, 1997 09:52 EDT
> >>Message-id: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net>
> >>
> >>Commenting on material you haven't seen in your typical 
> >>ignorant fashion, I see.
> >>Mike Curtis
> >
> >What did I say to cause you to become so hostile, friend?

He's exposing himself.  *Shudder*  ;-)

> I've become tired of pretending that you are ever going to 
> contribute something really worthy of evaluation. 

Another admission that you have been lying all this time. Fergus pegged you
perfectly, Curtis. I am pleased.

> Sorry. As for the rest of your friends who want to pretend they 
> are something they are not; I've decided not to help them along 
> in their delusions. They can delude themselves on their own 
> without my help.

Does this mean you'll be leaving alt.revisionism sometime soon?

[.sig left for dead in a dark alley]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:05 EDT 1997
Article: 143465 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Theological Declaration of Barmen
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <344A3F16.3A5D@concentric.net>  <344B0B3F.3FCA@concentric.net>  <344D7CC5.36B1@concentric.net> <344E5D0D.4BCC@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf3b$29e0bcb0$b856eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.86.184
Date: 22 Oct 97 22:42:03 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143465

Omri Schwarz  wrote in article
<344E5D0D.4BCC@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU>...
> Michael Ives wrote:
> > 
> > Daniel Keren wrote:
> > >
> > > Michael Ives  writes:
> > > # Daniel Keren wrote:
> > > # There are many relevant remarks.  But nothing about
> > > # calling someone an animal, etc.
> > >
> > > Wrong again. See Omri Schwarz's post. Matthew 5:22.
> > 
> > You need to read a lot more carefully.  There's nothing about calling
> > someone an animal.
> 
> The phrase is 'you fool!'
> 
> Why do revisionists call their opponents animals?

When they act that way, it is certainly appropriate. Take, for example, the
recent antics of one Mark Van Alstine. his berserk-like rages have resulted in
the savage attack of two innocents. In reading the messages in question one
witnesses the venting of Mark's bestial fury. In short he _was_ an animal.

> To question their intelligence.

Whose? What do you mean here?

[.sig sent to play in traffic]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:06 EDT 1997
Article: 143469 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Spitz on Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.abortion,alt.revisionism
References: <199710222233.WAA06861@sample.essenet.it>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf3c$9eff3b10$b856eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.86.184
Date: 22 Oct 97 22:52:27 GMT
Lines: 57
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.86.184
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.homosexuality:113534 alt.abortion:68407 alt.revisionism:143469

ehoffer@freeweb.essenet.it wrote in article
<199710222233.WAA06861@sample.essenet.it>...
> First, I refuse to post to that 'other' abortion group.

What "'other' abortion group"? What are you babbling about _this_ time?

> Second, Sabatini-Spitz-Phelps, how do you know what 
> evidence I have? 

Moron. How do you explain the fact that I am posting from Canada when you
claimed your bogeyman Phelps posts from Kansas?

> That's the first things you Phelpses do is whine about 'proof'. 

Sorry to shatter your bubble, stupid, but the "Phelpses" are not the only ones
who ask for proof. Obviously, since you haven't got any, you are making
excuses. What a poor, self-deluded fool you are!

> You just don't get it, do you? If nothing else, the content,
> style and frequency of your asinine posts could and have been
> shown to be Phelps. 

How so? Make a case for it. I assume that you have defined a 'style' of the
typical Phelps post. Describe this and then compare it to mine.

> But I rely on far more concrete evidence
> upon which to form my conclusions and there's certainly no
> real I can think of that I have to reveal it to you.

But sooner or later you _must_ reveal this magic "concrete evidence" of yours
or no one will take you seriously. I believe Allan Matthews (to name but one)
has already explained that bit to you. Obviously, you didn't understand,
although this is not surprising considering the amount of intelligence (or, in
your case, lack thereof) you've shown here.

> Spitz-Phelps, you know and I know what I said was 100% 
> accurate about your clandestine meetings. 

"Meetings"? What "meetings"? Where? When? With whom?

> Eventually, Spitz-Phelps, your wicked
> ways will lead to your utterly complete downfall, humiliation
> and, I most fervently hope, your utter destruction.

You're mad, Hoffer. Thankfully, many people already know this about you.

> Sabatini-Phelps, sray in alt.revisionism and pretend to be
> Italian.

There is no need to "pretend", dolt.

> The Man be lookin' at you, Sptiz-Phelps.

I'm assure you that I'm dutifully shaking in my Nike Airs.

[.sig dumped in the river]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:07 EDT 1997
Article: 143470 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Spitz on Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.abortion,alt.revisionism
References: <199710222233.WAA06861@sample.essenet.it>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf3c$c1179030$b856eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.86.184
Date: 22 Oct 97 22:53:24 GMT
Lines: 57
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.86.184
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.homosexuality:113536 alt.abortion:68408 alt.revisionism:143470

ehoffer@freeweb.essenet.it wrote in article
<199710222233.WAA06861@sample.essenet.it>...
> First, I refuse to post to that 'other' abortion group.

What "'other' abortion group"? What are you babbling about _this_ time?

> Second, Sabatini-Spitz-Phelps, how do you know what 
> evidence I have? 

Moron. How do you explain the fact that I am posting from Canada when you
claimed your bogeyman Phelps posts from Kansas?

> That's the first things you Phelpses do is whine about 'proof'. 

Sorry to shatter your bubble, stupid, but the "Phelpses" are not the only ones
who ask for proof. Obviously, since you haven't got any, you are making
excuses. What a poor, self-deluded fool you are!

> You just don't get it, do you? If nothing else, the content,
> style and frequency of your asinine posts could and have been
> shown to be Phelps. 

How so? Make a case for it. I assume that you have defined a 'style' of the
typical Phelps post. Describe this and then compare it to mine.

> But I rely on far more concrete evidence
> upon which to form my conclusions and there's certainly no
> real I can think of that I have to reveal it to you.

But sooner or later you _must_ reveal this magic "concrete evidence" of yours
or no one will take you seriously. I believe Allan Matthews (to name but one)
has already explained that bit to you. Obviously, you didn't understand,
although this is not surprising considering the amount of intelligence (or, in
your case, lack thereof) you've shown here.

> Spitz-Phelps, you know and I know what I said was 100% 
> accurate about your clandestine meetings. 

"Meetings"? What "meetings"? Where? When? With whom?

> Eventually, Spitz-Phelps, your wicked
> ways will lead to your utterly complete downfall, humiliation
> and, I most fervently hope, your utter destruction.

You're mad, Hoffer. Thankfully, many people already know this about you.

> Sabatini-Phelps, sray in alt.revisionism and pretend to be
> Italian.

There is no need to "pretend", dolt.

> The Man be lookin' at you, Sptiz-Phelps.

I'm assure you that I'm dutifully shaking in my Nike Airs.

[.sig dumped in the river]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 22 20:28:08 EDT 1997
Article: 143474 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net> <19971022181200.OAA02211@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net> <01bcdf2c$8c03ddf0$ae56eccd@odin> <345081d6.2299479@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf43$5c4bddd0$550bcdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.11.85
Date: 22 Oct 97 23:40:42 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143474

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<345081d6.2299479@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net>...
> >> fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
> >> 
> >> >>Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
> >> >>From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
> >> >>Date: Wed, Oct 22, 1997 09:52 EDT
> >> >>Message-id: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net>
> >> >>
> >> >>Commenting on material you haven't seen in your typical 
> >> >>ignorant fashion, I see.
> >> >>Mike Curtis
> >> >
> >> >What did I say to cause you to become so hostile, friend?
> >
> >He's exposing himself.  *Shudder*  ;-)
> 
> And you speak of Mark Van Alstine's alledged dirty mind?

That was a joke. Notice the smiley. Besides, I've never accused Markie-pooh of
have a "dirty mind"; his is simply _filthy_.  ;-)

> >> I've become tired of pretending that you are ever going to 
> >> contribute something really worthy of evaluation. 
> >
> >Another admission that you have been lying all this time. 
> >Fergus pegged you perfectly, Curtis. I am pleased.
> 
> I haven't been lying about personalities here, Sabatini. 

In another thread with Mr. McClelland you admit to just that. Why are you
playing these stupid games, Curtis?

> I haven't been lying about the history of the holocaust. I do 
> understand why you want to give that impression for it is 
> another denier tactic. 

Is it? But first you must define "denier". Even after repeated requests you
have failed to do so.

> Rather than address the historical topics you address the 
> personalities of others.  My story is a bit different. I find that 
> you and Fergus will not discuss history for you both appear to 
> be lacking in fundamentals.

What are these "fundamentals", Curtis? List them.

> You both want to pretend to be these innocent bystanders 
> who doubt the history of the holocaust and present absolutely 
> no foundation for doing so. 

I don't know about Fergus but I've never referred to myself as a "bystander".
I post and ask questions all the time. You must be thinking of some other
wascally "denier" or evil Nazi (tm).

> But you want to pretend that you are these poor abused souls
> who are getting persecuted by myself who have the integrity 
> to point this out publicly. 

LOL! What you just described above is the very ploy used by your pals at the
ADL, SWC, et al.! _I'm_ not the "persecuted" one here, Curtis. You and your
fellow travelers keep trying to make it appear as _you_ are, attacked on all
sides by vile Nazis concocting diabolical plans! LOL! Remember, I'm not the
one that says things like:

"The ADL, like the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, has built its
financial appeal to Jews on its ability to portray the Jewish people as
surrounded by enemies who are on the verge of launching threatening
anti-Semitic campaigns. It has a professional stake in exaggerating the
dangers, and sometimes allows existing racial or political prejudices in the
Jewish world to influence how it will portray the potential dangers." -
Michael Lerner, ex-ADL president, in _Jews and Blacks: Let the Healing Begin_

> Neither one of you have even bothered to show me
> that I'm mistaken. 

We've shown that you are a hypocritical paranoid with wild delusions of
grandeur. And we seem to have made you admit to lying.

> In fact what you do is follow around with these
> childish responses that are basically, well, lies. 

Where are the "lies", Curtis? Be specific.

> >> Sorry. As for the rest of your friends who want to 
> >> pretend they are something they are not; I've decided 
> >> not to help them along in their delusions. They can 
> >> delude themselves on their own without my help.
> >
> >Does this mean you'll be leaving alt.revisionism sometime 
> >soon?
> 
> Where does it say that?

Well, you said you wouldn't be wasting your time with such lowly peons, and
you've already claimed that you know so much about the history...

> Why are you in such a hurry to see me go? 

I'm not. I was just asking you to clarify.

> Who would you follow around like a lost puppy then? 

I dunno. Markie-pooh, perhaps...?  ;-)

> First he wants me to kill file him and now he can't wait for 
> me to go. Rather humorous.

More evidence of your self-delusional paranoia. Why would I want you to leave?
After all, you're one of the best sources of entertainment here!  :-O

[.sig blasted]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:32 EDT 1997
Article: 143476 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.11.85
Date: 22 Oct 97 23:24:47 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!news3.spinne.com!news.spinne.com!newsfeed.ecrc.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.11.85
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143476

steve mock  wrote in article
<344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca>...
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> 
> > Richard G. Phillips  wrote in article
> > <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net>...
> > > Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > > > In article <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>, rgphill@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > > > Look, sonny. I was using libraries long before you ever had
> > > > > a nipple in your mouth.
> > >
> > > > Uh huh. Using libraries to come out of the rain in don't count,
> > > > Phillips. (This assumes, of course, that Phillips is _smart_ 
> > > > enough to come in out of the rain....)
> > >
> > > I am wondering if some helpful soul out there will supply the 
> > > subtitles I need to make some sense of what this semi-coherent 
> > > twerp is trying to say.
> >
> > It's really quite simple. Van Alstine has got any goddamn plans or 
> > evidence of any sort, so he's reverting to his bestial nature and 
> > engaging in ad hominem.
> >
> > Come now, Mr. Phillips! I mean, after reading even three or four 
> > of Markie-pooh's guttural braying sessions I'd think you would 
> > have realized this by now!
> 
> Funny.  All I've seen in his posts are excepts of documents as 
> quoted in "Technique.." by Pressac and "Anatomy of Auschwitz" 
> by Gutman et, al.  But I guess since Sabatini can't deal with the 
> evidence Mr. Van Alstine presents, he has to wait until Mr. Val 
> Alstine loses his patience with the fact that deniers don't deal 
> with the evidence he presents.  

And what "evidence" would that be? Since Van Alstine has access to a scanner,
why doesn't he simply scan the picture of these gas chamber plans and post
that instead of lengthy tracts of hot air? It's really that simple. Then
again, simplicity is often at odds with the Nizkook modus operandi.

> Then the hypocrite Sabatini can refer to Mr. Van Alstine as 
> "bestial" and his posts as "gutteral braying sessions" whilst
> simultaneously accusing him of  engaging in "ad hominem".

And truthful in every one! Of course, few -- if any -- expect a Nizkook to be
man enough to admit to their fellow traveler's faults or errors. Case in
point, Mock here will never accept the fact that Van Alstine _has_ acted
"bestial" in the past few days. And then he even speaks of "hypocrites"! It is
to laugh.

[.sig kicked. Hard.]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:33 EDT 1997
Article: 143478 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin> <345284a9.3022250@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf45$24289c70$550bcdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.11.85
Date: 22 Oct 97 23:53:27 GMT
Lines: 113
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!island.idirect.com!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!News1.Vancouver.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.11.85
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143478

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<345284a9.3022250@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net>...
> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> >Jared  wrote in article
> >> ><34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com>...
> >> >> On 16 Oct 97 15:08:06 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini"
> >> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> [snip]
> >>  
> >> >> >on your tippy-toes in order as to not insult their tender 
> >> >> >sensibilities. After all, lacking any other arguments, many 
> >> >> >Nizkooks and their ilk fall back to mock indignation and 
> >> >> >feigned shock, moral outrage that anyone would *dare*
> >> >> >question their beliefs, etc. It gets old real fast, though...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >[snip]
> >> >> 
> >> >> There is no evidence here that anyone's beliefs are being 
> >> >> questioned. The numbers quoted are clearly not believed by 
> >> >> deniers, nor is there any indication that they are part of what 
> >> >> Mr. Sabatini calls the "sacred dogma" of people who believe 
> >> >> the Holocaust occurred. A surprising number of people are 
> >> >> making a surprisingly negligable amount of sense.
> >> >
> >> >No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust occurred.
> >> 
> >> No one! How about Joe Bellinger? Andrew Allen? Mark Raven? 
> >> Michael the Nationalist? Matt Giwer? Phillips?
> 
> >I don't believe any of these people have claimed the Holocaust 
> >did not occur at all.
> 
> Phillips: "No gas chambers. No holocaust." 

Ask him what he means by that. In any case, how about the rest?

> >> >The point of contention is the actual number of deaths. So 
> >> >far, there hasn't been a great deal of solid (and scientific!) 
> >> >evidence that leads to the 11 million figure.
> >> 
> >> This is your point of ignorance. 
> >
> >You keep saying that but you've yet to show any substantial 
> >proof for you magic numbers. Strange, that... Well, not really.
> 
> The discussion has been presented to you in other threads. 

Not really. Which ones are you thinking referring to?

> In a typical denier fashion you, like Phillips, refuse to read the
> available material that is in your local library. 

A lot of the more important stuff isn't readily available at many local
libraries, Curtis. I have to ask for inter-library loans. What's worse is that
you kooks post huge tracts of text, but when asked for a simple scan of the
gas chamber plans the silence has been...deafening. Why is that, Curtis? Don't
you have those plans in front of you?

> In fact, you seem to have ignored some of the material that 
> has been posted in this group.

Some stuff doesn't get through here. But what "material" are you referring to?

> >> You haven't read one iota of information concerning how these 
> >> numbers were gathered and you obviously do not care what 
> >> historians or scientists tell you. You reject, out of hand, solid 
> >> and scientific evidence that was used.
> >
> >You haven't a friggin' clue what I read or looked at and what I 
> >haven't. You're just a cheap smear artist and/or propagandist.
> 
> I have some idea what yu haven't read. If you had you would have a
> basic understanding of the basics concerning this history.

Really? Like what? Be specific.

> You would've also listened to what Laura Finsten had to say. 

Sure I have. It is impossible to procure any large portions of remains. Hence,
we cannot go about proving the magic 11 million figure by those means. That is
why you folks have to rely on the 'population analysis' spiel.

> But you are correct, I can only base my perceptions of you by what 
> you post to this group. Hence my perceptions.

Yes, we've heard them all before...

> >> >Thus, the term "denier" is a misnomer at best, an intentional 
> >> >smear (and possible strawman argument).
> >> 
> >> No it is nopt misused. It isn't misused at all in your case. 
> >
> >Define "denier", Curtis. Be specific and clear. Then we'll see just how 
> >much of an ass you and your fellow travelers really are. You dolts 
> >are cheap propagandists. You fool no one.
> 
> I have ad nauseum to you. I'm not going to do it over and over and 
> over. Read some of these other active threads and you will find my
> responses. Get back to me after to understand.

I _have_ been reading your posts, Curtis. None of them contain your definition
of "denier". Maybe these articles haven't reach here yet, so I'll wait a few.
(BTW, it's not at Deja News either.)

> [snip]

[.sig warped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:34 EDT 1997
Article: 143484 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf4f$166ace00$550bcdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.11.85
Date: 23 Oct 97 01:04:39 GMT
Lines: 134
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143484

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> > Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> > <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net>...
> > > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > > >No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust occurred.
> > > 
> > > No one! How about Joe Bellinger? Andrew Allen? Mark Raven? 
> > > Michael the Nationalist? Matt Giwer? Phillips?
> > 
> > I don't believe any of these people have claimed the Holocaust 
> > did not occur at all.
> 
> According to the Giwer-swine:
> 
> Subject:      holocaust truth changes constantly
> From:         mgiwer@gte.net (Matt Giwer)
> Date:         1997/06/07
> Message-ID:   <5nbvc8$n7d$20@news5.gte.net>
> Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
> 
> 
> 
> But, but, but, barely thirty years later that term somehow applies 
> to the Holocaust. Instead of being funny, it is "offensive" to some 
> self proclaimed holohuggers. And rather than a correction, it 
> elicites an apologiy. It appears that the word "gas" connected with 
> the word "oven" elicites some connection to the Holocaust even 
> though there is not now nor has there ever been one. 
> 
> 

Giwer's saying that he doesn't believe that gas chambers existed. He isn't
denying that Jews were slaughter at the time. And who can blame considering
that your twerps *still* haven't been able to post a scanned image of one of
these wondrous devices?

> Oops! Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini once more 
> inserts head up ass.

How can you tell while yours remains firmly planted between the buttocks of
your silly Ostroll?

> > > >The point of contention is the actual number of deaths. So far, 
> > > >there hasn't been a great deal of solid (and scientific!) evidence 
> > > >that leads to the 11 million figure.
> > > 
> > > This is your point of ignorance. 
> > 
> > You keep saying that but you've yet to show any substantial 
> > proof for you magic numbers....
> 
> Substantial proof has been cited for Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe"
> Sabatini to verify. 

Really? Like what? You're magic number comes from the ole' "population
analysis" schtick. What other "substantial proof" do you have that adds up to
11 million? Be specific for once.

> Yet he avoids doing so like the plague, makes unsubstaniated 
> claims he cannot back up with substantial proof, and
> copiously spews horseshit from between his lips. 

What "claims" would these be?

[the Savage Fairy's spew deleted]

> > > >Thus, the term "denier" is a misnomer at best, an intentional 
> > > >smear (and possible strawman argument).
> > > 
> > > No it is nopt misused. It isn't misused at all in your case. 
> > 
> > Define "denier", Curtis. Be specific and clear. Then we'll see just 
> > how much of an ass you and your fellow travelers really are. You 
> > dolts are cheap propagandists. You fool no one.
> 
> Those who deny the historical record of the Holocaust in part or 
> whole, of course! 

As usual, the Savage Fairy is willing to answer questions his fellow mastiffs
refuse. For that, I am grateful. (Honest!)

But you will have to further define "the Holocaust" so we know what your are
brayi--, er, I mean, talking about. Now be a good fellow and spit it out.

> This, oviously, would among others include Anthony "beat 
> 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini. 

And a whole bunch of others given Markie-pooh's extremely broad definition!

> > > >As for the "sacred dogma" bit, it is in direct response to 
> > > >those zealots and fanatics who get all rabid and burly at 
> > > >anyone who would dare question their beliefs. IOW, it's 
> > > >very apt under the circumstance here in this newsgroup.
> > > 
> > > Look in the mirror, Sabatini.
> > 
> > I see a rather handsome fellow there, Curtis.  ;-) 
> 
> There's no accouting for taste. Even pigs find each other 
> attractive....

Indeed, as evidenced by Markie-pooh immediate defense of the Ostroll and the
latter's admiration for our Savage Fairy! LOL!

> > But when I read you and your pals' posts, I see smear 
> > artists spewing half-truths, outright lies and a never-
> > ending stream of propaganda.
> 
> "Physician heal thyself!" (And Mr. Bellinger et. al. while 
> you're at it!)  LOL!

Truth to tell, Markie-pooh, *you* are the most responsible for my dislike and
utter disdain of most Nizkooks.

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) hoisted by their own petards]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:34 EDT 1997
Article: 143542 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Date: 23 Oct 1997 00:23:49 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <01bcdf49$3f473850$550bcdcd@odin>
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <01bcddb2$490542d0$6e55eccd@odin> <345f3322.4864001@news.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.11.85
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143542

Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<345f3322.4864001@news.demon.co.uk>...
> Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net>...
> >> "Richard G. Phillips"  wrote:
> 
> snip
> >> Then go to the library and prove us wrong. 
> 
> plural 1.
> 
> snip
> >If it's that simple, then when can we assume you'll get back to us with the
> >results?...
> 
> Plural 2.
> 
> snip
> >> Well, we have been to the library and have done the work. 
> 
> Plural 3.
> 
> snip
> >> Actually, we expect you to do nothing. Then after about 6 mos. we'll
> >> post the material. 
> 
> Plural 4.
> 
> snip
> >>  Meanwhile you appear lazy. We are in no hurry.
> 
> Plural 5.
> 
>  
> Mr Curtis: Who are the "we" to whom you refer so many times above?

Must be all those voices in his head!  LOL!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:35 EDT 1997
Article: 143549 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Answers to M. Curtis part 1.
Date: 23 Oct 1997 03:32:25 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <01bcdf63$95a3af20$8ba2cdcd@odin>
References: <34500769.432838158@news.jump.net> <19971022184101.OAA04603@ladder02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.139
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143549

Fafner13  wrote in article
<19971022184101.OAA04603@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: Answers to M. Curtis part 1.
> >From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
> >Date: Wed, Oct 22, 1997 10:41 EDT
> >Message-id: <34500769.432838158@news.jump.net>
> 
> >uage people use when they post. I ask you to list this 
> >information so I can learn. In a typical denier fashion 
> >you refuse and suggest you already have. Reminds 
> >me of Bellinger tactic 1a.
> 
> Mike, why do you bring my name into this discussion? 

This way he gets to smear multiple people with one post. Somewhat practical,
wouldn't you say?

> You  do not want to learn. I have never seen you concede 
> even ONE point.  What you wish to do is criticize.  Why are 
> you being dishonest with us?

That is his wont.

> >I understand Bellinger tactic 1a very well. The impression 
> >I get is that you haven't the knowledge to support your 
> >assertions but you will get all snippy. This is my gain and 
> >your loss.
> 
> I resent your untrue statement above.
> 
> >. I suspect that like
> >>>Satatini, he doesn't know any.
> 
> Now, Mr. Sabatini is set up as the duck....

Any "denier" is a target for the Curtis-Clone. The only problem is he *still*
hasn't defined "denier" for us. Maybe we'll get it _this_ week...?

> >Also you have been winging your way to Sabatini's side and he
> >is siding up next to you. How quaint you two appear.
> 
> Can anyone hold an opinion which disagrees with yours?

Not without a scathing indictment from Curtis.

> >You are the one looking pretty shabby in this
> >conversation.
> 
> While do you always make judgmental statements as if 
> you speak for all of humanity?

Because he is an arrogant blowhard.

[...]

> >You know what that is
> >called? Out of Context. Deneir tactic 1c.
> 
> You use these tactics all the time.  Why attribute it to "deniers"?  
> You also are a denier from a revisionist standpoint.

He is just a hypocrite. Nothing new there.

[...]

> >If you want to discuss New England Indian Wars or Puritanism 
> >I'm your guy. As for holocuast history I'm pretty weak. So
> >this doesn't say much about Bellinger and Sabatini does it?
> 
> Again, why bring my name into this?  Or Mr. Sabatini's?  

Because he gets his jollies that way. I wonder how he'll feel if these
treatments were practiced on him...? I guess we'll just have to find out, no?

> I AM an expert on the War period, and not badly versed on 
> New England Indian Wars either.  In fact, I have a fine number 
> of antiquarian books on these very subjects for sale, AND
> I have read them!

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:36 EDT 1997
Article: 143550 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Date: 23 Oct 1997 04:00:28 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 136
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.139
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143550

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> In article <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > steve mock  wrote in article
> > <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca>...
> > > Anthony Sabatini wrote:

[...]

> > > > It's really quite simple. Van Alstine has got any 
> > > > goddamn plans or evidence of any sort, so he's 
> > > > reverting to his bestial nature and engaging in 
> > > > ad hominem.
> > > >
> > > > Come now, Mr. Phillips! I mean, after reading 
> > > > even three or four of Markie-pooh's guttural 
> > > > braying sessions I'd think you would have 
> > > > realized this by now!
> > > 
> > > Funny.  All I've seen in his posts are excepts of 
> > > documents as quoted in "Technique.." by Pressac and 
> > > "Anatomy of Auschwitz" by Gutman et, al.  But I guess 
> > > since Sabatini can't deal with the evidence Mr. Van 
> > > Alstine presents, he has to wait until Mr. Val Alstine 
> > > loses his patience with the fact that deniers don't deal 
> > > with the evidence he presents.  
> > 
> > And what "evidence" would that be? 
> 
> Why, the cited evidence provided to Phillips of course! Is Anthony 
> "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini so stupid he cannot comprehend 
> this? (A rhetorical question for sure!)

IOW, the usual Nizkook post-o'-hot-air. Is anyone the least bit surprised?

> > Since Van Alstine has access to a scanner, why doesn't he simply 
> > scan the picture of these gas chamber plans and post that...
> 
> Does Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini mean like:
> 
>
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/bau-2003-keller
jpg

Those are floor plans, you moron! You have been asked to produce plans for a
*gas chamber*, along with an operations manual or something of that nature.
What a lying piece of...well, you know.

> ...And in which Bischoff, in a letter to Kammler, referred to L.Keller 1
> not as a Leichenskeller but as a _Vergasungskeller_ -i.e. as a gassing
> cellar? 
> 
> See: 
> 
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/bischoff.002
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/a/abels.nele/vergasungskeller-essay

Very nice, but *still* no plans. Is anyone surprised?

> > instead of lengthy tracts of hot air? 
> 
> To which Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini can 
> do naught but innefectually sputter and whine about? 

Markie-pooh unduly flatters himself! His parroted texts are of little interest
with regards to the topic at hand. Where are those plans, Markie-pooh?

> Be that as it may, the point to my "lengthy tracts of hot air" 
> is a) to provide a detailed (and cited) refutation to mendacious 
> denier claims, propaganda, 

Which you have failed miserably considering we *still* don't see those plans.
What a dunce!

> and Nazi apologia; and b) to help educate those actually 
> interested in the details of the Holocaust. 

What details? Oh, you morons can tell us what color socks Moshe Peer wore on
his sixth (!!!) trip to the 'gas chamber', all right, but you fall woefully
flat when asked to provide "details" of the actual chamber itself! On your
collective rumps. Hard. (Much to our delight, of course, but we _would_ like
to see these magical plans eventually...)

> Obviously, in the incredibly ignorant and close-minded Anthony 
> "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's particular case, my "lengthy 
> tracts of hot air" are pearls cast before swine! Pity.

*Another* Nizkook displaying an ungodly amount of hubris. Notice a pattern
yet, folks?

> > It's really that simple.
> 
> Yes, it is. Swine rarely appreciate the pearls cast before them! 
> Swine- as Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini has shown 
> with his hateful ignorance, bigotry, and lies time and time again 
> -prefer wallow in the muck.

And yet _you_ are the one who flies into berserk-like fits of unbridled rage
when your ridiculous proclamations are confronted, replete with
spittle-flinging and much frothing at the mouth! Do you bite your shield in
fury and bellow a savage war cry before posting, too? Whadda maroon!

> > ...Then again, simplicity is often at odds with the Nizkook 
> > modus operandi.
> 
> Simply because Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini, 
> in swine-like fashion, has no appreciation for the oft complex 
> details of the Holocaust is _his_ personal problem. 

Yes, a lot of "details" but no _real meat_. What a shallow narrative you so
mindlessly parrot and champion!

> By no means must others dumb-down what they write to 
> Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's level -that 
> being the level of a moron.

At least eighteen orders of magnitude above our misanthropic inbred mule, the
Savage Fairy himself, Markie-pooh Van Alstine!

[more of Markie-pooh's ineffectual braying -- including patented VanSlander
(tm) and silly .sig -- snipped]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:36 EDT 1997
Article: 143593 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Holocaust Calendar: October 16
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <62470j$ic5$1@news.trends.ca> <01bcda47$9ebed150$757acdcd@odin> <3446cf6f$12$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdb11$b65b6060$6ab113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 17 Oct 97 15:35:10 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143593

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3446cf6f$12$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bcda47$9ebed150$757acdcd@odin>, on 10/16/97 
>    at 03:28 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > [newsgroups trimmed to alt.revisionism]
> 
> > Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote in article
> > <62470j$ic5$1@news.trends.ca>...
> 
> > > On a day that will become known as "Black Saturday," German
> > > police surround the ancient Jewish quarter in Rome and seize
> > > 1,259 people but release the children of mixed marriages. In
> > > anticipation of the German operation, many Jews had already
> > > fled and taken refuge outside Rome with Italian non-Jewish
> > > families or in Catholic institutions. The Jews arrested are
> > > sent to Auschwitz, where they are gassed on October 23.
> > > (Ibid.)
> 
> > I suppose this is why the Church is being asked to apologize for some
> > imagined misdeeds. After all, "no good deed shall go unpunished"...
> 
> Err.. I thought you said recently you did *not* want to get into this
> topic, Anthony.

There is nothing to get into. Blaming the Church for imagined misdeeds is just
another way of spreading the blame (along the lines of 'everyone is guilty!')
in order to suck pity-bucks. Nothing new here.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:37 EDT 1997
Article: 143594 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Holocaust Calendar: October 17
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <626rcj$25a$1@news.trends.ca>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdb12$2068bac0$6ab113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.106
Date: 17 Oct 97 15:38:08 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143594

[newsgroups trimmed]

Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote in article
<626rcj$25a$1@news.trends.ca>...
> [Follow-ups set]
> 
> October 17
> 
> 1943
> 
> The head of the German Catholic Church in Rome writes the
> German city commander asking for an immediate halt to the
> arrest of Jews. (USHMM, 1993, p. 48)

And yet the Church is _still_ being blamed for imagined misdeeds. No matter
what anyone does or did, it is *never enough* to satisfy the craving for
pity-money and the unending need to blame everyone else for their problems.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:38 EDT 1997
Article: 143595 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: The mendacious mis-uses of the Holocaust (was: Yet another round of Gobbledi-talk (tm))
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk> <625t63$3vc@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 17 Oct 97 16:00:28 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143595

Derek Bell  wrote in article
<625t63$3vc@bell.maths.tcd.ie>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  writes:
> >Some people are here for issues besides strictly historical ones. For
example,
> >the mendacious misuses of the Holocaust for the past 50 or so years is a
> >perfect topic for this newsgroup, as I'm certain you'll agree.
> 
> 	Assuming that there were such misuses - you'll have to supply evidence
> of those; oh dear, looks like you have something difficult to do!

Not really. Proof is available all around us.

For starters, the Holocaust is (mis-)used for the appropriation of billions of
dollars in aid from the US. After all, the greedy opportunists claim, if Jews
do not have their own homeland with tons of cash they will suffer through yet
another Holocaust.

Then there is the taxpayer-funded US Holocaust Museum, apparently a high-tech
assimilation (indoctrination) centre to ensure everyone continuously feels
guilty for the wrongdoings of others (real and imagined) in some foreign
country half a century ago.

Then there is the $1,000,000 US given to Steven Speilberg (for free!) by the
US Government to create yet another film of (lying) eyewitness. (Perhaps Mr.
Speilberg should call upon Moshe Peer, amazing self-described survivor of not
one, not two, but SIX gas chambers!)

One of the most shocking misuses of this over-rated event comes from the
greedy opportunists who continue to parasitically suck money from the gullible
Jews who are continuously told to contribute money because of massive
anti-Semite (tm) conspiracies going on all the time. To wit:

"The ADL, like the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, has built its
financial appeal to Jews on its ability to portray the Jewish people as
surrounded by enemies who are on the verge of launching threatening
anti-Semitic campaigns. It has a professional stake in exaggerating the
dangers, and sometimes allows existing racial or political prejudices in the
Jewish world to influence how it will portray the potential dangers." -
Michael Lerner, ex-ADL president, in _Jews and Blacks: Let the Healing Begin_

And, of course, there is its mendacious misuse for making people feel guilty
in political situations. For example, take a look at the following piteous
whining:

Taken from the Montreal Gazette, p. B5 on August 6, 1997.

< begin article >

_Israel is cast as 'Jew' among nations_

Arye Hillman
_Jerusalem Post_

There is a chorus around the world that accompanies our peace process. We hear
it from everywhere in Europe -- from Paris, Rome, London, Bonn, Zurich,
Amsterdam, and most particularly from the collective European voice of
Brussels, indeed from everywhere in Europe where people regard themselves as
enlightened.

This chorus of consensus says: Go on with this peace process. It is good for
you. It is the only way. You are morally obliged to continue."

If we listen intently, we hear further whispers: "The objective is worthy. We,
after all, suffer the inconvenience of your presence in your country. What is
it to you Jews if a few more of you die?

"The number is small, and you are accustomed to death. You have been hounded
for generations, and lost 6 million only two generations ago.

[Here you have it, folks! The tie-in with the Holocaust.  - AS]

"With 1.5 million children among these millions, what matters it in the grand
scheme of world events if another teenager dies in a fruit and vegetable
market in Jerusalem?"

Then the louder, official, voice returns: "Overcome your emotions, Jews. Do
not be deterred by the violence against you. Go on with your peace process. Be
patient and forgiving. Understand the frustrations of Yasser Arafat and his
people. Make the sacrifice for peace. It's an investment for the future."

We are living in an era when the world tells us that death is a worthy
investment for Jews. (No other people, by the way, has been told anything like
that following an act of terrorism perpetrated on them.)

In a vote of rare unanimity, broken only by the United States and Micronesia,
the nations of the world have already informed us that Jews are not permitted
to build houses on Jewish-owned land within the city limits of Jerusalem.

No other people are dictated to by outsiders concerning where they may build
in their own country. This is reserved exclusively for Jews in the land of
Israel. Telling people anywhere else that they cannot build housing on land
they own because of race or creed or religion would certainly evoke cries of
racism and bigotry. It is only the Jews of Israel who cannot live where they
wish, even if they have legal claims of ownership to land, because they are
Jews.

It is no longer fashionable to be anti-Semitic. Auschwitz made anti-Semitism a
personal embarrassment.

And yet there is a Jew among the nations. Its name is the state of Israel.

In the assembly of the community of nations, this Jew is the only one who is
not accepted in any regional grouping, and so dwells along among the United
Nations. The embassies of the nations of the world line the beachfront in Tel
Aviv, and the Jew among the nations is the only one who choice of capital city
(chosen 3,000 years ago by a previous ruler) the nations do not recognize.

The Jew among the nations is called upon to make concessions, to be generous,
when no other nation has voluntarily yielded a bare outcrop of land to others.

The popularity of the Jew among the nations reaches maximal heights when its
people huddle in distress and exasperation in little sealed rooms, and do not
seek to retaliate when missiles descend upon them.

It is also very popular and appealing to the rest of the world when, as again
Thursday, its people are bloodied by vicious bombers, weeping as they retrieve
the body parts of loved ones blown to bits and hanging off trees.

No other nation in history has ever been compelled (as were the Jews of Israel
during the Persian Gulf War) to retreat from missile attack into flimsy
shelters and warned by other nations (their friends) to refrain from defending
themselves when the means of defense were available. No other nation makes the
world happy only when they are victims. To be accepted with grace by the
nations, the Jew among the nations has to be a victim. The nations like the
comfort of continuity.

My friends on the Left here say: "Be wise. Do not be confrontational. Do not
challenge a world consensus. Look away. Seek a way for us to be accepted. Let
us rather do things that will please the nations.

"If we do all this, the time will surely come when we are accepted as a nation
among the nations."

My friends on the Left are a minority of the Jews of Israel, and are
apprehensive of a government that is not readily receptive to the world
consensus.

But no one today wishes to deal with the divisions over how to deal with the
new anti-Semitism, though we are all aware of it confronting us.

It is unpleasant today to call someone an anti-Semite, especially a European.
When we do so, it is like accusing that person of complicity in historical
events for which he or she may have no person direct responsibility.

[Heck, that's never stopped the bastards before!  - AS]

For the sake of our own integrity, however, we might just have to learn to
confront some painful new truths.

_Ayre Hillman is William Gittes professor of international economics at
Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan, Israel._

< end article >

So you see, Mr. Bell, it really isn't that difficult to demonstrate the
various misuses of the Holocaust.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:39 EDT 1997
Article: 143623 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3431b79d$12$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk>  <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net>  <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk>  <34383939$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <343bb2dc.2846559@news.demon.co.uk> <343af5cd$2$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <343DDF7E.27D9@capital.net> <3442f838.1286309@news.demon.co.uk> <3442cb65.1287510@news.jump.net> <34559769.4186956@news.demon.co.uk> <344b59f0.82227121@news.jump.net> <344e7f81.65144@news.demon.co.uk> <345040e3.513099664@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdfca$c5255fc0$3d718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143623

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<345040e3.513099664@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >
> >First an insert from me. Contrary to what Mr Curtis avers 
> >below, I do NOT think that Laura Finsten is dumb.
> >
> >>redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >>>mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >>>>redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Gord and I have had a few debates and other exchanges 
> >>>>>in the past and I would like to take this opportunity to 
> >>>>>compliment him. He has been spitting with rage at me in 
> >>>>>the past and in total disagreement with what I was saying. 
> >>>>>(He was, of course, in the wrong and I in the right every 
> >>>>>time). This being the case his choice of wording has 
> >>>>>"descended" all the way down to comments such as 
> >>>>>"bloody rubbish" and "I am shocked" and similar. He may 
> >>>>>have gone a little further, but if he did I didn't notice it. 
> >>>>>He is a hot-headed American, so this sort of thing is to be 
> >>>>>expected. Other than that minor cavil, it has to be said 
> >>>>>that his technique has always tried to be faultlessly fair. 
> >>>>>There will be no downward spiral here! 
> >>>>
> >>>>Only from you. 
> >>
> >>It means that the downward spiral comes from your keyboard. 
> >>A recent example:
> >
> >Naughty insert of a paragraph of mine from another thread 
> >by Mike
> 
> Cool! Cut the example you asked for.
>  
> >Curtis snipped. It is not relevant - unless the way Mike Curtis 
> >talks to, say Matt Giwer,
> 
> I don't write to Giwer. Giwer is not worth breathing next to.

Are you saying that you've never replied to one of Giwer's posts? Be clear
now.

> > is relevant to the way he responds to Laura
> >Finsten  - which of course it is not. Why not an extract of me talking
> >politely to someone? Because Mike Curtis is trying to smear in a
> >ham-fisted manner. Look at the lie that follows later.
> 
> I hope you can prove it.

He did. You are just too brazen to admit to it. Truth to tell, however, you
*did* admit to lying of another king in a recent message. Did you forget about
that, Curtis? I didn't.

> >>Which hasn't a thing to do with history and is a total 
> >>personality fight that could be best done elsewhere. 
> >
> >Highty-tighty high and mighty Miss!
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

Curtis is confronted with his haughty proclamations, but he seems not to be
able to do little but whine.

> >>Like no where.
> >
> >Please state your authority.
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

IOW, Curtis was out of line -- his own sense of self-worth having gotten the
better of him again -- and now he's gonna try to wiggle out of it. Good show,
old man!

> >>Giwer isn't worth the time or the effort. He shouldn't be 
> >> defended. Enough said.
> >
> >Oh I see, your opinion - again! When do you post anything else? 
> >Should Mark Van Alstine be defended? Should Laura Finsten be 
> >defended? Yes of course, because they are friends of Mike Curtis. 
> >There is a simple ord for this and it starts with H. (No, not Holocaust).
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

Fergus has caught Curtis again. Curtis continues to demonstrate his amazing
arrogance but can do little other than whine when confronted with it. Is
anyone surprised?

> >>>You mean that you want to spiral downward? Or are you 
> >>>trying to insult some emotional reason? Please explain 
> >>>this comment of yours.
> >>
> >>See above.
> >
> >Yes, you want to smear.
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

IOW, Curtis knows that Fergus caught him again but is unable to defend
himself.

> >>>>So far you have been here complaining about the way
> >>>>people post.
> >>>
> >>>A little bit. More about things they were saying - which is not the
> >>>same thing at all. I disagree with some of the style of argument of
> >>>Miss Finsten and yourself, though not necessarily with what either of
> >>>you were trying to say. Miss Finsten's "errors" (in the smallest
> >>>possible sense of the word) were less than yours. You seemed to grow
> >>>angry, she just seemed to act a bit dumb.
> >>
> >>I see, you want to stay above board so you call Ms. Finsten dumb.
> >
> >I don't think that dyslexia is your problem, it;is either stupidity or
> >lying. Read my last sentence again: "...seemed to act a bit dumb."
> 
> Oky then, she is "acting a bit dumb." 

That's not what he said, Curtis. Fergus clearly said that she *was* "acting a
bit dumb" *at that moment*. Are you lying again?

> How you can tell on a message board is beyond me.

Curtis has no problems airing his ill-conceived "perceptions" of others in a
like manner, but woe to any who should dare try the same! Curtis is just being
his usual hypocritical self. Nothing new here.

> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

Nothing in this entire post but Curtis wiggling and gyrating his pelvis to and
fro.

> >That is NOT saying she is dumb - I have a high opinion of Miss
> >Finsten's science and writing ability - as I have pointed out
> >elsewhere. I also thin she is probably a very decent, pleasant 
> >human being. I strongly resent your crude lie here.
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

IOW, Curtis is caught in a lie of his own devising but his brazen arrogance
will not allow him to apologize for it. How...unsurprising!

> >>There's that downward spiral. 
> >
> >I agree, you have spiralled downward in your lie. I would 
> >rather like an apology and retraction.
> 
> Apologize for your attributing a characteristic to Laura which you
> made. Grow up, Fergus.

IOW, Curtis is still playing games here. He misunderstood what Fergus was
saying -- whether deliberately or not remains unclear -- and then lies about
it, but he won't apologize for it. Instead, he's trying to create a
smokescreen to cover his lies now a la Nizkook game of Gobbledi-talk (tm).

> >>As for me, I let my illness take control
> >>of my patience last week or the week before. 
> >
> >I think it just did again.
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

IOW, Fergus has another direct hit.

> >>Frankly I got tired of allowing Sabatini to pretend he was 
> >>something other what he was. I decided to make it clear 
> >>for him by substantiating my points. You however simply 
> >>call Finsten dumb. 
> >
> >Stop repeating this lie.
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

Curtis' stubborn refusal to apologize for his lie is amazing.

> [snip]
> 
>> >He didn't have any basis of a scientific or
> >>historical nature.
> >
> >I think you are saying that there was no scientific basis for his
> >position. I agree, so does he
> 
> Then why is he back to the same old game he was playing 
> before?

What "game" is that, Curtis? Be specific.

> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

Time for a reality check, dude. Nothing here but Curtis playing Gobbledi-talk
(tm) in a vain attempt at obfuscation.

> [snip]
> 
> >>>running away... etc" twaddle which is mildly irritating 
> >>>and not interesting to me. But I replied every time. If 
> >>>someone does nothing wrong I cannot draw attention 
> >>>to any "errors".
> >>
> >>Then don't run away from historical arguments in favor 
> >>of personality clashes. Get it? 
> >
> >Get what? That you are trying to lay down the law over 
> >the internet?

That certainly appears to be Curtis' intent...

> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

Can't answer the charges, can you? Is it true or not? I've noticed the same
thing about you, Curtis. You're a pompous little fellow who throws fits when
you think a message is off-topic. Problem is, you haven't any clue or
credentials as to what constitutes on-topic for this group. If you do, prove
it. Post this newsgroup's charter, but stop yapping about it until you do.

> >>Frankly, this trip about people really doesn't
> >>interst me but I respond sometimes.
> >
> >Always against the same people and never against certain 
> >other people.
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

IOW, Fergus has scored another bullseye and you haven't a leg to stand on. Do
you think you are fooling someone, Curtis?

> >>>> You have been sticking your nose into a door trying to
> >>>>prop up Sabatini's unsubstantiated claims. 
> >>>
> >>>I propped up nothing - I tried to prop up nothing.
> >>
> >>Of course your trying to explain what Sabatini was saying, which
> >>wasn't what he was saying, was what is called propping up. 
> >
> >In your simple mind perhaps.
> 
> Nothing here but Fergus stomping his feet.

Naw. Fergus is just showing everyone what a hypocrite you are, Curtis. You
have freely given your "perceptions" about the same three or four people over
and over again but you have a shit-fit if, for example, Fergus does the same.
You're a hypocrite, Curtis. I've been telling you that for a while now. You
just don't get it, do you?

> >>>But there you go again with silly emotional analogies. 
> >>>"Sticking your nose into a door" indeed, this is usenet 
> >>>Mike, there are no doors. Everyone is free to speak 
> >>>or not. "Sticking etc" implies butting into something 
> >>>private.
> >>
> >>You don't like colloquial writing? Too bad. 
> >
> >I don't like bad and inaccurate writing. I can forgive Miss 
> >Ostrov so much because she can write so very well. Doc 
> >Tony takes us on a journey of syntactical discovery every 
> >time he says hello. Gord McFee writes straight and honest. 
> >You just try throwing your small weight around. And your 
> >sentences are even worse than my own feeble efforts.
> >That isn't colloquial, that's just poor skill. I often don't
> >understand you.
> 
> At least we know that Fergus isn't here to discuss history. 
> He's here to be a grammar Nazi and a spelling Nazi. Good 
> for you Fergus. If you do not like my writing you can ignore 
> me. Maybe I should take more time and read through stuff. 
> I sometimes get the feeling that most of you guys do not 
> really read this stuff anyway. From now on, just for Fergus, 
> I'll make a greater effort to read through my writing.

"Nothing here but [Curtis] stomping his feet." LOL! This guy's just too much!
Remember, _you're_ the "Nazi" here, Curtis. You're the arrogant SOB,
goose-stepping in most of your posts and sneering at others.

> >>Well, I'm not sure that everyone agrees with the ideals 
> >>of the website. If the ideals are to correct historical 
> >>distortions promoted by the deniers in this group and in 
> >>the world then I'll support that single ideal.
> >
> >Thanks for beginning to be honest about the "loose link" 
> >between those who "support the ideals of the web site" 
> >(I am indebted to Gord McFee for the term incidentally).
> 
> Whoever said there was a tight link other than the deniers 
> who post here?

He's talking about you Nizkooks, Curtis. Are you really dyslexic? There's no
shame in admitting it, you know.

> [snip]
> 
> >>>But first: You called me a denier when you referred to 
> >>>"the rest of the denier scum" while talking about me. 
> >>
> >>I think I excluded you from the group by saying you were 
> >>like them. I think it was a warning.
> >
> >In that case you worded badly. I can only see your words, 
> >not your thoughts.
> 
> Doesn't stop you from calling people a liar does it or other eptihets.

LOL! A fitting description of Curtis' m.o.

> You aren't the innocent, Fergus. 

Trust me, Curtis, you're not even close!

> >>>So, what is a denier - in detail? As I honestly don't 
> >>>know. Are they a defined group - a monolith?
> >>>What makes you call me one?
> >>
> >>What makes me think you are like one? So far it is a 
> >>perception based on what you write about the Holocaust 
> >>via the Sabatini support thread of yours and yur 
> >>treatment of Keren and some others. You prefer to be
> >>on the opposite fence from those know the history very 
> >>well.
> >
> >I think you mean opposite side of the fence: but no, I am 
> >not. There is a lot I believe happened, I don't assume 
> >everything is accurately represented. I also think it was 
> >mega-bad.
> 
> What is not accurately represented? 
> 
> >> Usually it
> >>is the Jewish numbers. 
> >
> >Don't know the numbers. Way too big, even if less than one million.
> 
> 6 million.

Hilberg says 5.1 million, Curtis. Why are you making it seem bigger now? Or is
it simply because you round up the .1 to the next highest integer? Make a big
difference there, Curtis. That's 900,000 people.

> >>This would be that gassings didn't take place.
> >
> >Don't know for certain.
> 
> Then you are a denier. Historians know for certain as do the Nazis and
> Nazis and the survivors. 

Name these "historians". Then, provide evidence of these gas chambers. Show us
one. Post an operations manual from one.

> >>No gas chambers = no holocaust. 
> >
> >Disagree, what about Einsatzgruppen?
> 
> What about them?
> 
> >>Another kind use the history to say it was a zionist plot to 
> >>get money for Israel. So the whole thing is manufactured.
> >
> >That is too simplistic and incredible for me.
> 
> You asked for examples and not all of them apply to you. 
> Sabatini even claimed I never provided a description of what 
> deniers are. What can I say?

I never said the Holocaust was "manufactured" for the benefit of Israel,
Curtis. I said that it is being _used_ for that purpose now. Are you lying or
did you misunderstand again?

And I still don't see a clear-cut definition of "denier" from you, Curtis.
Sure, you posted some bits and pieces, but I want the entire affair. List what
one has to believe in to avoid that dreaded label. I'm still waiting, Curtis.

> >>There are other kinds but that is a simple explanation. 
> >>So your questions have been answered.
> >
> >Finally, thank you. So next, how do I fit in there? How do 
> >certain others fit in there?
> 
> That remains to be seen. All the denial games are different and I've
> seen them all over the past four years.

Only games I see here are the ones you and your fellow Nizkooks play, Curtis.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:39 EDT 1997
Article: 143624 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: BBBTF Admits the Holocaust! (was Re: A Call to all Revisionists)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344c130a$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <19971022060501.CAA04260@ladder02.news.aol.com> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdfcd$7cdfe930$3d718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.61
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143624

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <19971022060501.CAA04260@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
> fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
> 
> > >Subject: Re: BBBTF Admits the Holocaust! (was Re: A Call to all
Revisionists)
> > >From: Gord McFee 
> > >Date: Mon, Oct 20, 1997 21:27 EDT
> > >Message-id: <344c130a$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
> > 
> > >Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.  ROTFLMAO!
> > >
> > >-- 
> > >Gord McFee 
> > 
> > Laughter is good for the soul.
> 
> Especially so when it is at Mr. Bellinger's expense! ROTFL!

Usually, though, it's at Markie-pooh's expense.

Hey, don't know Van Alstine! He's one of the best sources of entertainment
here!

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) laughed outta town]

Do not forget:

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:40 EDT 1997
Article: 143630 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Answers to M. Curtis part 1.
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344e58f5.453717128@news.jump.net> <19971023073601.DAA06821@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344f4f52.516795197@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdfcd$1324f490$3d718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 23 Oct 97 16:06:30 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143630

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<344f4f52.516795197@news.jump.net>...
> fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
> >>Subject: Re: Answers to M. Curtis part 1.
> >>From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
> >>Date: Wed, Oct 22, 1997 16:04 EDT
> >>Message-id: <344e58f5.453717128@news.jump.net>

[...]

> >>Where did I say I was speaking for all of humanity, Joe. I 
> >>see know we have Sabatini and Joe Bellinger jumping in to 
> >>do battle with another denier pal. What a circus!

And you're the clown, Curtis. The only thing left to decide is who's the
ringleader.

> >Really?  And you and your other Nizkook cronies do not jump 
> >in to defend each other?
> 
> Tu qouque, Bellinger. You guys defend each other. So what? LOL!

No, Curtis, the Nizkooks are the ones who does this. That's one of their
tactics. You know that. Don't bother denying it.

> > A faviorite Nizkook tactic is to divide and conquer, but it is 
> > not working so well in this forum.  

Damn straight. Their old tricks don't work so well.

> > Also, I do not align myself 
> > with any ideology or belief other than my belief in the 
> > concept that truth eventually triumphs over lies.
> 
> That's why you drift into threads with other deniers, right?

*You* "drift into threads with other deniers", Curtis. What does that make
you?

[...]

> >But you divert as well.  I believe he was simply trying to 
> >prove that these points are related in a general sense.  
> >Why do you get so defensive over this?
> 
> Defensive! Joe, I'm describing his tactics and yu are here 
> defending him as you accuse me of defending others.

You kooks do it all the time, Curtis. What's the problem? Can't you take what
you dish out?

[...]

> >>What I do not have is his book or report so I
> >>must go on what historians say about it.
> 
> >I will be most happy to sell you a copy cheap.
> 
> Isn't there a difference between the report and his book? 
> You haven't even gotten the Butler stuff to me that yu 
> promised. Maybe if that happens I MIGHT consider buying
>  a cheap copy of this book from you.

Don't be cheap, Curtis.

> Oh, wait, it's at my library! I can check out there! I'm not 
> as scared of libraries as Phillips and Sabatini. I do have to 
> make this point about them here, Joe, for I know they will 
> see it or get told about it. That way they can come into this 
> thread and call me names.

I was already in this thread, Curtis. You keep bring me up all the time, and
you "call names" with the best of them. That's one of the reasons why I (and
others) call you a hypocrite, Curtis. Boy, you sure can dish it out but you're
a craven yellow-belly when it comes to taking it. You're a whiner, Curtis. You
like to insult others but you can't stand when the favor is return. So you're
a _craven_ hypocrite. Pretty sad, if you ask me.

[...]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:41 EDT 1997
Article: 143658 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Date: 23 Oct 1997 20:29:38 GMT
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Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> > Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
> > ...

[...]

> > > Why, the cited evidence provided to Phillips of course! Is 
> > > Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini so stupid he 
> > > cannot comprehend this? (A rhetorical question for sure!)
> > 
> > IOW, the usual Nizkook post-o'-hot-air. Is anyone the least 
> > bit surprised?
> 
> IOW, _yes_, Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini _is_ 
> so stupid he cannot comprehend this! ROTFL!

I am amazed. I'm not certain whether you are merely playing dumb or you truly
are as stupid as you sound. Honestly. You have been asked to provide plans of
a *gas chamber*, not floor plans (layouts) of a building. What part are you
having difficulty comprehending?

> > > > Since Van Alstine has access to a scanner, why doesn't 
> > > > he simply scan the picture of these gas chamber plans 
> > > > and post that...
> > > 
> > > Does Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini mean 
> > > like:
> >
> >
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/bau-2003-keller

> > jpg
> > 
> > Those are floor plans, you moron! 
> 
> In which L.Kellers 1 and 2 are identified. Moron.

Silly twit. We want schematics of the gas chambers* themselves, not the layout
of a crematorium! Are you really _this_ dense?!?

> > You have been asked to produce plans for a
> > *gas chamber*
> 
> That'd be L.Keller 1. Moron. 

*Still* no plans. A lot of braying and hooting, but absolutely *nothing* in
the way of the requested plans and/or operations manual. But perhaps the Nazis
didn't need manuals? Maybe the knowledge of use and operation of these devices
was implanted in their minds telepathically?

> > ...along with an operations manual or something of that 
> > nature. What a lying piece of...well, you know.

You have nothing of the sort, do you? Poor fool.

> > > ...And in which Bischoff, in a letter to Kammler, referred 
> > > to L.Keller 1 not as a Leichenskeller but as a 
> > > _Vergasungskeller_ -i.e. as a gassing cellar? 
> > > 
> > > See: 
> > > 
> > > http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/bischoff.002
> > > http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/a/abels.nele/vergasungskeller-essay
> > 
> > Very nice, but *still* no plans....
> 
> Obviously, one can lead this braying ass to the documents, 
> but one cannot make him comprehend!  

Indeed, I have been at loggerheads with you trying to make you understand what
we are looking for!

> > Is anyone surprised?
> 
> No. I'm sincerely doubt that nobody is suprised in the least 
> at the ignorant Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's 
> fascile evasions and empty rhetoric. It's all he's good for.

While *you*, apparently, are not even good for _that_. Where are these plans,
Markie-pooh? Why not just admit you ain't got 'em?

> [Sabatini's fascile evasions and empty rhetoric snipped]

Surely not as "fascile" as the "evasions" you have been taking to present
plans and an operations manual of these gas chamber. But then again, that is
to be expected coming from an unmitigated ass such as yourself.

[silly .sig and same old VanSlander (tm) whipped into submission]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:41 EDT 1997
Article: 143659 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Answers to M. Curtis part 1.
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344e58f5.453717128@news.jump.net> <19971023073601.DAA06821@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344f4f52.516795197@news.jump.net> <01bcdfcd$1324f490$3d718bcf@odin> <344fad26.540819291@news.jump.net>
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Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<344fad26.540819291@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >> >Really?  And you and your other Nizkook cronies do not jump 
> >> >in to defend each other?
> >> 
> >> Tu qouque, Bellinger. You guys defend each other. So what? LOL!
> >
> >No, Curtis, the Nizkooks are the ones who does this. That's one of 
> >their tactics. You know that. Don't bother denying it.
> 
> And what have you been doing in this thread, Sabatini? Let's see,
> you've been trying to insult me and not discussing history. Insult me
> all you want but it still doesn't change the historical facts of the
> holocaust. They will still be there no matter what you call me.

LOL! You're a really killer, you know that, Curtis? You know what I said was
100% true so you revert to your Nizkooks games. When are you gonna learn that
that stuff grows old real fast?

> >> > Also, I do not align myself 
> >> > with any ideology or belief other than my belief in the 
> >> > concept that truth eventually triumphs over lies.
> 
> >> That's why you drift into threads with other deniers, right?
> 
> >*You* "drift into threads with other deniers", Curtis. What does 
> >that make you?
> 
> I'm actually supplying substantive arguments. 

By calling people "ignorant", "deniers", etc.? What a classic you are, Curtis!

> You however are simply picking fights. 

I'm giving you the exact same treatment you give me, Curtis. Spare us your
sanctimonious bullshit.

> But you keep stomping those feet and jutting out your
> chest, or is that jaw. We call call you jut-jaw. That's what the
> reporters called Irma Grese--jut-jaw. (Sorry, I had to get a little
> history in there at Sabatini's expense. )

More crap.

> >> >But you divert as well.  I believe he was simply trying to 
> >> >prove that these points are related in a general sense.  
> >> >Why do you get so defensive over this?
> >> 
> >> Defensive! Joe, I'm describing his tactics and yu are here 
> >> defending him as you accuse me of defending others.
> >
> >You kooks do it all the time, Curtis. What's the problem? Can't 
> >you take what you dish out?
> 
> What makes you think I can't take all this nonsense, Sabatini? Do you
> actually think that you bother me? Hint: Think again.

IOW, the answer is a resounding, "No!"

> >[...]
> >
> >> >>What I do not have is his book or report so I
> >> >>must go on what historians say about it.
> >> 
> >> >I will be most happy to sell you a copy cheap.
> >> 
> >> Isn't there a difference between the report and his book? 
> >> You haven't even gotten the Butler stuff to me that yu 
> >> promised. Maybe if that happens I MIGHT consider buying
> >>  a cheap copy of this book from you.
> >
> >Don't be cheap, Curtis.
> 
> Sorry, I can it at the LIBRARY.

Spring for the book from Joe, Curtis. Don't be a cheap bastiche.

> >> Oh, wait, it's at my library! I can check out there! I'm not 
> >> as scared of libraries as Phillips and Sabatini. I do have to 
> >> make this point about them here, Joe, for I know they will 
> >> see it or get told about it. That way they can come into this 
> >> thread and call me names.
> >
> >I was already in this thread, Curtis. You keep bring me up all 
> >the time, and you "call names" with the best of them.
> 
> What have I called you. Remind me. I forgot already.

Re-read your messages, Curtis.




From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:42 EDT 1997
Article: 143695 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Answers to M. Curtis part 1.
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <34562a56.2611826@news.demon.co.uk> <34500769.432838158@news.jump.net> <345acd9a.3595608@news.demon.co.uk>
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Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<345acd9a.3595608@news.demon.co.uk>...
> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> 
> WAS: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
> Changed title as no longer suitable.
> Broken into two more easily digested morsels.
> 
> >redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:

[...]

> >>>McClelland doesn't list a thing.
> >>
> >>I frequently have. You seem to think that I should play some little
> >>game by your rules. I can't think why you think I should want to.
> >
> >I don't normally read what you right for you are most frequently
> >complaining about how and what language people use when they 
> >post. I ask you to list this information so I can learn. In a typical 
> >denier fashion you refuse and suggest you already have. Reminds 
> >me of Bellinger tactic 1a.
> 
> No, I answered that I had listed them before and don't intend to waste
> my time again. The common idea of 4,000,000 dead at Auschwitz is a
> good one though. So it seems that not wanting to get endlessly
> sidetracked is a "denier" tactic. Let's see if you do it.

All the time. That is Nizkook tactic 637-A4 from their operations manual.  ;-)

[...]

> >Also you have been winging your way to Sabatini's side and he
> >is siding up next to you. How quaint you two appear.
> 
> What does this mean? Is it some sort of insult?

Of course it is meant that way! Why else would the high and might Mike Curtis
"waste [his] time" on such lowly folk as we? He has frequently moaned that
there aren't enough "historical discussions" here, and that "revisionists" are
"no challenge" for him and provide nothing new. Hence, once can only assume he
is here to get his jollies by smearing and insulting hapless "deniers"
(whatever _that_ means).

> >>What a puffed up "historian" you are Mike - or should I descend to
> >>your petty level and start calling you Curtis?
> >
> >Suit yourself. You are the one looking pretty shabby in this
> >conversation.
> 
> Another bit of self-praise! Being provocative Mr Curtis?

It's just the regularly high amounts of hubris demonstrated by Nizkooks. As
I've often said, they are mostly blinded by their own light.

[...]

> >This is your term FROM THE OTHER THREAD. You and Sabatini 
> >and the thread drift games. It doesn't make you any better at 
> >this it simply shows that you want to make it harder for people 
> >to refer back to what went on before. You know what that is
> >called? Out of Context. Deneir tactic 1c.
> 
> That is another of your frequent lies. Threads get their names changed
> when the topic changes too much. Many people do it. I put the name of
> the old thread at the beginning of my posts - so anyone could go back
> to the other to pick up the past postings. So, you lie - again.
> Look at the top:
> >WAS: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
> >Changed title as no longer suitable.
> >Broken into two more easily digested morsels.
> 
> See? Where's the problem?

This is just another of Curtis' games, Fergus. He hasn't got much left so he
is reduced to whining about "thread drift". Poor fellow...

> And for you to say "out of context" when only today you have 
> taken one paragraph of mine from another thread to Danny Keren 
> and inserted it into another thread and tried to use it against me! 
> Was that not "out of context"? "H" word again Mr Curtis.

Another direct hit! Fergus has got you pegged, Curtis. I've been saying all
along that you're a hypocrite, but you just whine and say it isn't so. I guess
Curtis is also one of the biggest "deniers" -- literally -- in this newsgroup!

> >>>>>>>As for the activity being some sort of routine, this 
> >>>>>>>claim was never made. 
> >>>>
> >>>>This claim was made. Read the witnesses against the 
> >>>>skins of Jews being used for all sorts of things. I think 
> >>>>you know the ones I mean.
> >>>
> >>>I was talking about the soap. 
> >>
> >>Don't you duck and dive badly Mr Curtis? 

Yup. As transparent as Saran Wrap.

> >>Read back the 
> >>last few paragraphs and cringe anew. And I was clearly 
> >>talking about the lampshades as well as the soap.
> >
> >You were talking about commonly taught but you seem to 
> >want to discuss this as though it really means something. 
> >Hint: It doesn't.
> 
> I have answered over and over again about commonly taught, 
> you just keep saying that I have not, so that new arrivals to the 
> thread will think that I have evaded. A form of lie Mr Curtis.

More evidence that Curtis is among the biggest "deniers" in the group!

> >>>I really don't give a hang about Buckenwald. 
> >>
> >>You clearly don't, you can't even spell it!
> >
> >Spelling attacks are the attacks of the intellectually defeated.
> 
> Perhaps you should tell this to Laura Finsten who corrected me 
> today? No, I thought not.  Why not? 
>
> Oh yes, because she is one of your friends. I do not recall your ever
> complaining at Annie Alpert or Sara Schwartz who did little other than
> post spelling corrections. That "H" word again Mr Curtis.

Big time, Mr. McClelland. In case Curtis has problems understanding (possibly
due to some dyslexic-related problem), here's two FREE definitions for him
>from  The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition:

hyp·o·crite (hîp¹e-krît´) noun
A person given to hypocrisy.

hy·poc·ri·sy (hî-pòk¹rî-sê) noun
plural hy·poc·ri·sies
1.	The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not
hold or possess; falseness.
2.	An act or instance of such falseness.

[...]

> >>>My knowledge about skins and stuff is that it was found 
> >>>but not generally. It doesn't go to the general history 
> >>>of the holocaust. 
> >>
> >>Of course it does. Unless you have a strange personal idea 
> >>of "the general history of the Holocaust", please note the 
> >>capital "H" Mr Curtis.
> >
> >The soap and the skin stuff doesn't appear generally in the 
> >history of the holockuast. It appears when certain camps 
> >come up.
> 
> Oh really, come on Mr Curtis, by honest. 

Surely you jest?!?

> Talk to some Jew in the street about the soap and skin stories; 
> I defy you to find one who says, "Well, the soap was only a 
> rumour, apart from a few experiments, and the skin stories 
> only happened in Bergen-Belsen and Treblinka -
> but then Hilberg does dismiss the soap claims".
> 
>  I have read
> >Hilberg dismiss these soap claims. I've seen other historians do so
> >also. Yet this doesn't stop deniers from presenting it over and over
> >ad nauseum. This is denier tactic 2a.
> 
> Really? I haven't noticed much. I have read a few postings about how
> the soap story was taken very seriously just after the war - including
> a funeral.

< begin quote >

Renowned "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal repeated the soap tale in a series of
articles published in 1946 in the Austrian Jewish community paper Der Neue
Weg. In the first of these he wrote:

     During the last weeks of March the Romanian press reported an
     unusual piece of news: In the small Romanian city of Folticeni
     twenty boxes of soap were buried in the Jewish cemetery with full
     ceremony and complete funeral rites. This soap had been found
     recently in a former German army depot. On the boxes were the
     initials RIF, "Pure Jewish Fat." These boxes were destined for the
     Waffen-SS. The wrapping paper revealed with completely cynical
     objectivity that this soap was manufactured from Jewish bodies.
     Surprisingly, the thorough Germans forgot to describe whether the
     soap was produced from children, girls, men or elderly persons.

Wiesenthal went on:

     After 1942 people in the General Government [Poland] knew quite
     well what the RIF soap meant. The civilized world may not believe
     the joy with which the Nazis and their women in the General
     Government thought of this soap. In each piece of soap they saw a
     Jew who had been magically put there, and had thus been prevented
     from growing into a second Freud, Ehrlich or Einstein.

< end quote >

> I understand there is still a museum with a bar of "Jew"
> soap - according to a recent posting by someone.

< begin quote >

After the war, supposed Holocaust victims were solemnly buried, in the form of
soap bars, in Jewish cemeteries. In 1948, for example, four such bars wrapped
in a funeral shroud were ceremoniously buried according to Jewish religious
ritual at the Haifa cemetery in Israel. Other bars of "Jewish soap" have been
displayed as grim Holocaust relics at the Jewish Historical Institute in
Warsaw, the Stutthof Museum near Gdansk (Danzig), the Yivo
Institute in New York, the Holocaust Museum in Philadelphia, the Jewish
Holocaust Centre in Melbourne (Australia), and at various locations in Israel.

< end quote >

> >[snipped this guy being provocative.]
> 
> You mean, "Snipped what this chap said as I can't handle it - and then
> claim it was provocative so that people will sympathise with me".

As ole' Chuck would say, "Bingo!"

[...]

> >Telling you about the knowledge I get from the people I 
> >speak with about this subject.
> 
> All I ever see you do is say that you know a lot and the "non-
> we" know nothing and they are provocative if they say a word 
> against you or your "we" friends.

That's just Curtis' ill-hidden hypocrisy shining through.

[...]

> >NEVER USED ALONE. Got it? Historians do not use the 
> >testimony alone. Let me say this one more time to make 
> >it clear: Historians do not use the testimony alone. 
> 
> Ah, the beloved faultless historians again. How many of them 
> are there Mr Curtis - approximately (listed by name and 
> qualification)?

He hasn't a clue. But I suspect that the majority of Holocaust historians have
not bothered doing their own, original work. In fact, I believe most of their
research is based on two or three sources. I've asked about this in the past
but no answer was forthcoming. This might actually make an interesting little
pet project once I get the time.

> >>>>>Of course they are not valid claims in any historical 
> >>>>>sense. They are valid in that the people thought they 
> >>>>>saw what they did at that time. 
> >>>>
> >>>>Maybe.
> >>>
> >>>There is no maybe about it. People report what they 
> >>>saw based on their perceptions. 
> 
> So, none lie?

You don't understand, Mr. McClelland. Curtis is telling you that the only
valid "perceptions" are those that stem from his, his pals and those who agree
with him. "Deniers'" "perceptions" don't count, you see.

[...]

> > Not ebveryone who posts here and disagrees with you
> > is associated with Nizkor.
> 
> What do you mean by "associated with"? Who is? I thought 
> that only Ken McVay was associated with Nizkor - that's what 
> you said a few days ago - remember? 

He hasn't a clue. Yesterday no one was "associated with" the Nizkult. The day
before he was. Today he isn't. Who can tell the truth through the smokescreen
Nizkooks throw up in order to obfuscate this particular issue? I mean,
sometimes they are a strong, united front and other times they work 'lone
wolf' style so as to not implicate anyone else. I guess the answer is they are
a team only when it suits them.

> What sort of  disagreements? Please list them as I don't 
> know what you are talking about. 

I doubt Curtis does, either!

> Oh and, not everyone who disagree with you is a "denier".

More evidence of the double-standard Curtis enjoys.

> > Drop the bogeyman claims. Cowards do that.

> The reference to Nizkor was a response to your comment 
> about deniers so, is a denier a "bogeyman" to you? I would 
> say to you: " Drop the bogeyman claims. Cowards do that."

LOL! Curtis is *once again* (!!!) 'hoist on his own petard'! Remember, Curtis
and his ilk see YANCs (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy) everywhere. Then they have
the gall to ridicule conspiracy theories!

> >>>>Do we want to learn about this and what was really 
> >>>>going on or do you guys want to blow smoke, and the
> >>>>>same old stale smoke it is, all the time?
> >>>>
> >>>>Hopefully some of these "revisionists" will reply to 
> >>>>you - then we'll all learn just who they are.
> >>>
> >>>They have  Sabatini, Michael. Phillips, Bellinger, Giwer, 
> >>>Ives, Widmann, David Thomas, Butz used to post, Bradley 
> >>>Smith used to post, Ingrid Rimland and Zundel and you 
> >>>are such a pretender.
> >>
> >>A few of the above I would consider students of the war 
> >>who question everything that is normally accepted. So 
> >>does that define a revisionist - or a "revisionist" or both?
> >
> >Historical revisionists tend to go out and use primary 
> >materials to revise some aspect of an event. They do 
> >their own work and present their own case using all 
> >primary materials. They provide a history with massive 
> >substantiation because the onus is on them to make 
> >their case. They do not ask other historians to prove 
> >his case for him.
> 
> This I would agree with. But I think that sometimes you 
> drop the "" by mistake, and it gets confusing.

I think this is just another of Curtis' sleazy tactics. He's also got another
game going where he differentiates between lowercase holocaust and uppercase
(i.e., Holocaust). The problem stems from the fact that sometimes he doesn't
use that nomenclature, other times typos happen so that no one really knows
what he's talking about. I'll bet he does that on purpose to avoid being
pegged one way or another. I wouldn't put it beneath him.

> >"Revisionists" pick at history without substantiation and 
> >provide no history of their own. Historical revisionists are 
> >constructive whereas "revisionists" tend only to be 
> >destructive and solutionless.
> 
> Seems a very bad title you attach to these people, a bit like
> Nizkorite". Better invent a better one, one less ambiguous.

These labels are part of their tactics. Nizkooks get all hot and bothered when
you call 'em that, but they have no problem calling people "Nazis" and
"deniers". They know that labels work. Trust me, I work in the software
industry and I know the power of fancy labels, buzzwords and catch-phrases. Do
you have any idea how many boxes of software are sold every day just because
the packaging says stuff like "RAD" (Rapid Application Development) and "OOP"
(Object-Oriented Programming)? For home and office users they nebulous terms
like "Intelli-Sense" (tm) and "SmartQuotes" (tm). Labels definitely work in
selling a product whether that product is a software package, a car or a
political idea. Nizkooks just take advantage of that fact.

> >[snipped]
> >
> >>>This is another example for you of your povoking intent.
> >>
> >>What? You call me a denier - which you then retract by 
> >>your "The rest of does not include you" and finally admit 
> >>with your "I cannot lie any longer you are a denier" - and 
> >>_I_ am being provocative?
> >
> >Then do not post like a denier. I was trying to have a benefit of the
> >doubt about you. I changed my mind based on how you post. This post
> >hasn't changed my mind at all. 
> 
> Oh dear oh dear, woe is me!

LOL! Better head off to confession, Fergus.

> >[snipped spelling attack. I wish I could care]
> 
> I just wish you could spell. 

McClelland: "B4"

Boom!

Curtis: "Aw, you sunk my battleship!"

LOL!

> Or take the trouble to proof read or spell-check. I think the 
> mistakes by you are arrogance. We all make some mistakes.
> >
> >>you concentrate on a joke, pretending to dyslexia - for 
> >>sympathy no doubt. How about using a spell-checker?
> >
> >How about coming up with an historical argument?
> 
> About the history of dyslexia?

Curtis' war-cry: "Dyslexics of the world, _untie_!"   :-O   ;-)

> >>>Okay then you are of that number. Convince me 
> >>>otherwise. I'm not going to lie any further about 
> >>>the perception I have of you.
> >>
> >>So, you finally admit to being a liar, or at the best, a person 
> >>who will hide your beliefs and lie when you are caught out. As to
> >
> >Actually, I WAS trying to have some doubt. You wouldn't 
> >allow me to have that doubt so I dropped it.
> 
> Takes little to join that gang then, just disagree with you on
> a few points - nothing to do with the Holocaust and, hey presto, 
> you are a denier! 

Yup, just like magic.

> And you forget your comment "I can't lie any longer" and go
> back to lying!

Typical Curtis hypocrisy. You expected different?

> >[snip]
> >
> >>>You are the one bringing up soiap, skins,
> >>>steaming even though this material has been explained to YOU. 
> >>
> >>By whom and when? Substantiate your claims please.
> >
> >It's been in this group at least 100 times. 
> 
> Wow, first you say it has been explained to ME, then you 
> say, well, it's been posted at least 100 times. In that case, 
> everything I have ever posted has been explained to YOU.
> 
> snipped provocative attack by Mike Curtis

*Gasp!*  Surely not?!?  ;-)



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:43 EDT 1997
Article: 143697 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143697

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
> >...
> >> In article <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> >> Does Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini mean like:
> 
> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/
> >documents/pressac/bau-2003-keller.jpg
> 
> >Those are floor plans, you moron! You have been asked to 
> >produce plans for a *gas chamber*, along with an operations 
> >manual or something of that nature. What a lying piece of...
> >well, you know.
> 
> Yup, here's the reply. Nothing will be good enough for these guys,
> Mark. It won't matter if you explain it to them like a child, it'll
> still be not good enough.

LOL! What a transparent evasion! Curtis, you must really think people are
stupid; otherwise, why bother with such a facile lie? You kooks were asked to
present the engineering plans and/or an operations manual for a *gas chamber*,
not layouts of the floor plan of a crematoria! If you cannot see the
difference, I fear you are beyond help. But I suspect you are merely playing
dumb again, at game at which you excel.

It is becoming more and more obvious that you haven't got these plans, nor an
operations manual. As usual, you're hard, solid evidence is lacking but you
are more than willing to make up for that with personal beliefs.

> >> ...And in which Bischoff, in a letter to Kammler, referred to 
> >> L.Keller 1 not as a Leichenskeller but as a _Vergasungskeller_ 
> >> -i.e. as a gassing cellar? 
> >> 
> >> See: 
> >> 
> >> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/bischoff.002
> >> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/a/abels.nele/vergasungskeller-essay
> >
> >Very nice, but *still* no plans. Is anyone surprised?
> 
> Makes one wonder if Sabatini tried to understand any of it.

I look at the _floor plans_ and read the documents (including a few others at
the Nizkult), Curtis. None of it was what you were asked for. You know that,
Curtis. I wonder why you're playing such a transparent game...?

> I also see that Phillips will pretend he didn't see this for 
> he's not going to post to Mark. 

Hope for your sake that Mr. Phillips does not see the floor plans you've
presented. If he does, he's liable to bust a gut from laughter.

> What a hoot these guys are.

Not nearly as entertaining as watching you kooks run around in a vain attempt
at damage control whenever you're shown up.

Let's tally this up. So far, we have:

1. No viable means of obtaining human remains that will reasonably shed light
as to the total number of deaths claimed for the Holocaust.

2. No plans and/or operations manual for a gas chamber.

[.sig belted. A lot.]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:44 EDT 1997
Article: 143702 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Date: 24 Oct 1997 01:23:25 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bcdff1$b0a92a00$9b74cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> > Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
> > ...
> > > In article <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> > >  wrote:
> > > > Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
> > > > ...
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > > > Why, the cited evidence provided to Phillips of course! Is 
> > > > > Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini so stupid he 
> > > > > cannot comprehend this? (A rhetorical question for sure!)
> > > > 
> > > > IOW, the usual Nizkook post-o'-hot-air. Is anyone the least 
> > > > bit surprised?
> > > 
> > > IOW, _yes_, Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini _is_ 
> > > so stupid he cannot comprehend this! ROTFL!
> > 
> > I am amazed....
> 
> Fools like Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's are 
> easily amazed. 
>
> > I'm not certain whether you are merely playing dumb or you truly
> > are as stupid as you sound. 
> 
> "Physician heal thyself!" ROTFL!

Van Alstine has convinced me that he is not, if fact, playing dumb; he really
*is* that stupid.
 
> > Honestly. You have been asked to provide plans of
> > a *gas chamber*, not floor plans (layouts) of a building. 
> 
> L.Keller 1. Moron.

What is being asked of you is for plans of a *gas chamber*, NOT floor layouts
_indicating where a gas chamber is_. I've attached a quick scan of the plans
for a computer case (in GIF format). Examine at the picture. Can you provide
an equivalent plan for a gas chamber (albeit more technical)? Instead, what
you have done is post a map of a house containing the location of the computer
case. This is *not* what is asked for.

[Markie-pooh's ineffectual braying removed]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



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M&M&/AG2D=3I>X@0LE)+&=*8US5[V.?J[:=YTJ$4]:M"B&-06OI"B%5 ````[
`
end



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:45 EDT 1997
Article: 143710 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: The mendacious mis-uses of the Holocaust (was: Yet another round of Gobbledi-talk (tm))
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk>  <344AEA32.3289C049@aol.com> <01bcddcc$41758920$6e55eccd@odin>  <345021B7.4638@concentric.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143710

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<345021B7.4638@concentric.net>...
> Daniel Keren wrote:
> > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> > # That's fine, but this issue is not only one of the U.S. helping
> > # Israel. You are right that the States didn't help them out at
> > # that time,
> 
> Anthony, did you really say this?  Did you miss the following exchange
> in another branch of this thread?

Yes, I did. Thanks for the re-post, Michael.

> Daniel Keren wrote:
> > 
> > Michael Ives  writes:
> > # Daniel Keren wrote:
> > 
> > ## Also, to the best of my knowledge, the US hardly helped Israel
> > ## during its most difficult period - the 1948 war; it began
> > ## sending military equipment to Israel only in the late 1960's.
> > 
> > # The best of Keren's knowledge isn't too good then, which comes
> > # as no surprise.  President Harry S Truman recognized the
> > # legitimacy of the imperialist enterprise in Palestine only hours
> > # after its proclamation in 1948, becoming the first world leader
> > # to do so.  This, as can be seen from the relevant document,
> > # occurred even before that enterprise had a name: the typewritten
> > # document recognizes "the Jewish state" which was later crossed
> > # out by pen and overwritten "Israel".

By "pen"? Did you say, "pen"?

> > Totally irrelevant. I was talking about military support. As
> > far as I know, nearly all of Israel's weapons were of French
> > and British make - until the late 1960's. For instance, all
> > of Israel's air force, until that period, was composed of
> > French planes.
> 
> That the "leader of the free world" gave his imprimateur to the
> imperialist adventure in Palestine within mere hours of its 
> proclamation conferred a perceived legitimacy that no money 
> could buy.  (But who knows, maybe money did buy it.)  At any 
> rate, guns could be (and were) bought anywhere.  But the 
> stamp of approval of the United States of America was 
> irreplaceable.  "Totally irrelevant"?  I don't think so.  
> 
> Now other countries have indeed contributed arms to the 
> Zionist enterprise, and France is a good example.  Without 
> France, for instance, there would probably be no weapons of 
> mass destruction in the Middle East.  Some accomplishment.  
> It's certainly odd that the prospect of mass murder is so 
> enticing to the same people who claim to have been a
> victim of it some years before.
> 
> > # The document resides in the National Archives in 
> > # Washington, D.C.
> > 
> > As do many other interesting documents.
> 
> Some of them even pertain to the United States, however hard 
> that may be for you to swallow.

Excellent post, Michael.

The entire point of this thread is to show how the Holocaust has indeed been
used for monetary, military and political gain, as well as how it is cunningly
used as tool for inducing guilt.

[.sigs snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:46 EDT 1997
Article: 143815 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Theological Declaration of Barmen
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <01bcdc10$78aef290$53a1cdcd@odin>  <01bcdc4f$42e2d3e0$e2a2cdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdcca$474f11c0$7a37eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 19 Oct 97 20:08:54 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143815

[Hmm. Looks like this one hasn't made it through. Here it is again.]

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> # Daniel Keren  wrote:
> 
> # It means Christianity took the next step in the
> # evolution of monotheism.
> 
> Sorry, I really fail to understand this. Judaism is also
> a monotheistic religion. What makes Christianity "the next
> step"? How do you objectively define such things?

Well, I think we hit the big problem with discussing religion; i.e., it is
based on faith. Here's my take on this situation: God sent His Son down to
earth. That is the part you need to believe in. I do. The "next step" I was
referring to, then, was accepting God's gift. Judaism rejected it.

> ## Are you suggesting that 
> ## Christianity is "a better religion" than Judaism?
> 
> # *Sigh* There is no elegant way of saying this without
> # sounding facetious, but I'll take a stab at answering your
> # question even though I feel it is asked with the intent of
> # nothing more than some sort of trap with which you will
> # deride and slander me further.
> 
> No, not really. I think this thread may finally explain what
> is driving you, though.
>
> # But here goes:
> #
> # In a nutshell, yes. Now before you pop a blood vessel or
> # something, 
> 
> "Medic! Medic! Over here!"  :-)

Well, considering the inflammatory nature of this group, I though it best to
approach such a touchy subject carefully...

> # let me explain a few things. All religions are not
> # equal. If they were, there would be no point in being a
> # Christian, Jew, Hindu or whatever; there would exist only
> # one massive mega-religion. In order to have a 'right' way,
> # there must exist a 'wrong' way. Now, do I think other (major)
> # religions are horrible? Of course not! However, if a person of
> # a given religion does not feel his or her's is better than 
> # another, then that person should most likely switch or become
> # an agnostic. Otherwise, what is the point?
> 
> Your problem is that you confuse "different" with "better". 
> Religions are different, yes; does that mean one is better
> than the other? No. All religions are an incomplete-by-definition
> approximations to something we cannot grasp, but one cannot
> claim that some are "better".

I disagree. Remembering that religion is based on faith, one must accept that
his or her chosen faith is better than another or one would have chosen that
other one.

> ## It's rather surprising. Why would a believing Christian, 
> ## for instance, routinely call those who argue with him
> ## "beast", "crazed animal", etc, to name just a few of your
> ## favorite expressions?  
> 
> # Do you think being a Christian means you have to act like a
> # hapless lamb?
> 
> (Not being a hapless lamb) != (calling people "mad beasts").
>
> Maybe writing in pseudo-C code is the only way to approach
> these X-generation kids :-).

#define TRUE !0

#ifndef what_is_relationship_between_christian_and_callingpeoplemadbeasts
     #define prompt_for_explanation = TRUE
#endif

> ## Didn't you yesterday post a lame joke about a "burning pit"? 
> 
> # What "joke about a 'burning pit'"?
> 
> The "[.sig dropped in a burning pit]" remark.

Heck, I wasn't even _thinking_ about _those_ "burning pits" at the time! It's
just that it's difficult to come up with those pithy one-line zingers about
..sigs all the time. IOW, I was making no joke about the Holocaust there,
although I certainly see how it could be seen that way.

> ## Why would a believing Christian joke about a locality in  
> ## which innocent human beings were burned?
> 
> # Not all Christians need be dour monks, Danny. You are again 
> # implying that Christians are a Borg-like entity,
> 
> No, of course not; but someone who defines himself as a
> believing Christian is not expected to behave like
> you are behaving. 

Let's forget about how I'm "behaving" for the moment and worry instead why one
is "not expected" to do so.

> All orthodox Jews eat only kosher food,
> but that does not mean they are identical. All Christians
> believe in Jesus, but that does not mean they are identical.
> And all believing Christians are not expected to joke about
> a locality in which innocent people were burned, but that
> does not mean they are identical. 
> 
> Is this clear enough? 

Yeah, but I wasn't making a joke about that.

> You had once retracted and apologized for a similar "joke"
> you posted. For the benefit of your soul, I suggest you
> do it again. No patronizing intended.

None taken.

> # But the Pharisees did not view these early Christians as 
> # "Jews", did they? 
> 
> They saw them as heretics, for obvious reasons.

Yes, but the "reasons" had more to do with earthly power over others than of a
religious nature.

> # Instead, they saw them as a threat to their power structure -- 
> # "heretics", as you say, but not in a religious sense -- 
> 
> Most certainly in a religious sense.

No, this is not correct. The Pharisees of the time (and even their descendents
for centuries to come) controlled almost every aspect of Jewish life,
religious and non-religious. Jesus came and exposed them as charlatans and
urging Jews to follow the path of the Laws of God and to heck with the
Pharisees. This got the Pharisees upset because they saw Christ as a threat to
their stranglehold on Jews.

> # and thus went about persecuting them. Now I don't know about
> # you, but I find that highly irreligious.
> 
> So do I. But the religious establishments are usually a
> rather horrible thing, are they not?

Let's not get into that right now, OK?  ;-)

> # Thus, the reasons for rejecting Christianity have more to do
> # with earthly matters than holy ones, if you take my meaning.
> 
> But you're factually incorrect. You are so sure that 
> Christianity is "better" than Judaism, that you cannot
> accept that it was rejected because of religious reasons.

But they weren't "religious reasons". Jesus renounced the corruption of the
Pharisees, not the Laws of God.

> Let me present an analogy. You will never accept a new
> religion which claims that Jesus was an ordinary human 
> being, right? It violates one of the axioms which you're 
> not willing to discard. Religious Jews will also reject
> a new religion that violates one of the axioms which
> they are not willing to discard. Now, maintaining such
> axioms is, of course, irrational; but every religious
> belief is (of course) irrational. Note that I am not
> saying "bad". I am saying "irrational".

But the first Christians were indeed Jews who *did* "violate one of the
axioms" of Judaism! After all, these people saw Christ as the Savior, a big
no-no in Judaism, no? I think your here analogy doesn't work.

> ## To answer a question you may ask - I don't believe that any  
> ## of these religions is "better" than the other.
> 
> # But you are an agnostic (or atheist -- I'm not sure which).
> 
> I don't define myself as either of the above.

Oh. I could have sworn you once said something to that effect...

> # You cannot logically be expected to believe one religion
> # better than another or you would most likely be a member
> # of that religion.
> 
> I have my own religion, but it is not one of the "major" ones.

OK, so you obviously feel that your religion is better than any of these
"'major' ones". Otherwise, you'd choose one of the others you thought was
better. Basically, you are saying that none of the big ones are as good as
yours. You are saying the same thing I am albeit with a different faith!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:46 EDT 1997
Article: 143869 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce090$69841eb0$27718bcf@odin>
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Date: 24 Oct 97 15:24:47 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143869

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> 
> >does not invalidate the Einsatzgruppen reports! But when 
> >YOU try to make excuses for Moshe Peer's ramblings you 
> >just anger people. If you occasionally said, "Yep, that one 
> >is probably a nutter, or trying to cash in" nobody would 
> >argue with you - at least, I would not:-). And anyone else 
> >who did would look silly.
> 
> I believe I've said that. But then what do I know, right, Fergus? 

Right.

> Not one historian uses Peer to any extent. I really don't know 
> Peer so many of us use quotes from others about him We know 
> he is full of it. But I'm not going to suggest what his motives 
> are. I've not met, read, or seen him. I only heard about him 
> from deniers who ALWAYS bring him up. 

Pretty speech, but you've obviously misunderstood what Mr. McClelland was
saying (no doubt in your haste to uncover another heretic!). His point was
directed at Daniel Keren, for starters, and was simply to explain to him how
people can get angry when he defends obvious frauds and liars such as Moshe
Peer. Remember, Danny has accused many of "defending the most ridiculous
'denier' claims", yet here he is do the same with the amazing Moshe Peer fairy
tale.

Do you understand now?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:47 EDT 1997
Article: 143874 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Spitz on Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.abortion,alt.revisionism
References: <199710222233.WAA06861@sample.essenet.it> <01bcdf3c$c1179030$b856eccd@odin> <344ffa21$15$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce094$ed350db0$27718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.homosexuality:113930 alt.abortion:68711 alt.revisionism:143874

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344ffa21$15$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bcdf3c$c1179030$b856eccd@odin>, on 10/22/97 
>    at 10:53 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > ehoffer@freeweb.essenet.it wrote in article
> > <199710222233.WAA06861@sample.essenet.it>...
> > > First, I refuse to post to that 'other' abortion group.
> 
> > What "'other' abortion group"? What are you babbling about _this_
> > time?
> 
> Speaking of abortion, what is your position on it?

I'm Catholic. What do you think?

[.sig melted into slag]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:48 EDT 1997
Article: 143875 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 66 Questions JEWS Don't Want People to Think About
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3440F56C.4785@somewhere.com>  <34475dfe.306149423@news.mindspring.com>  <62grmm$7q5$2@morgoth.sfu.ca> <01bcddb8$1d71a7c0$6e55eccd@odin> <344d460f$2$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bcde92$ef0a4370$f7938bcf@odin> <344f8615.11175213@news.v-wave.com> <01bcdf46$b6f02ef0$550bcdcd@odin> <344fe59e$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143875

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344fe59e$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bcdf46$b6f02ef0$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/23/97 
>    at 12:04 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > John Morris  wrote in article
> > <344f8615.11175213@news.v-wave.com>...
> > > In <01bcde92$ef0a4370$f7938bcf@odin>, on 22 Oct 97 02:37:51 GMT,
> > > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> > > 
> > > [snip]
> > > 
> > > >The Holocaust is one thing because it happened over 50 
> > > >years ago and nothing can be done for it now. The 
> > > >quasi-'genocide' against the Palestinians is happening 
> > > >here and now. Why are you not up in arms about it in 
> > > >the same way you are with the Holocaust?
> > > 
> > > 1. What makes you think we aren't?
> 
> > Haven't seen any indication of it whatsoever. If you are, why 
> > not just say so?
> 
> It is irrelevant to this newsgroup as John  tried--vainly--to tell you.

And yet neither you nor John have been able to post any evidence to prove what
is and what isn't on-topic for this newsgroup. That aside, you must remember
two things:

1. John asked my a question and I answered both truthfully and correctly.

2. Since the topic of the Palestinian 'quasi-genocide' *does* come up here
frequently, regardless of whether it is on-topic or not, I haven't seen him
make so much as a peep of protest. And neither have you, for that matter.

> > > 2. How many lines per week of breast-beating about the 
> > > Palestinians would you like before we could return to the 
> > > putative topic of the newsgroup?
> 
> > 182 per week per Nizkook.
> 
> Silly juvenile talk.

For a silly, juvenile question. You _did_ read John's question, did you not?
(But, of course, you had no scathing remarks for it.)

> > > 3. Who actually denies humans rights abuses against the 
> > > Palestinians?
>
> > Who actually accused anyone of "denying" these abuses?

No answer?

> > > 4. The government of Indonesia has killed 10% of the 
> > > population of East Timor. The killings continue here and 
> > > now. Why are *you* not up in arms about that?
> 
> > Haven't heard about. The news is usually bursting with 
> > Middle East stories so there is little room left to report 
> > other incidents.
> 
> Pretty feeble, Anthony.

I was quite serious.

> > > 5. Do you have any idea how irrelevant your 
> > > objection is?
> 
> > Is it more or less relevant than this post from you?

No answer?

> > > I know this will come as a shock to your sheltered 
> > > sensibilities, Anthony, but there actually are people 
> > > who deny the Holocaust and who falsify history in 
> > > order to sustain their denial. I can think of no other 
> > > historical event which has an organized campaign of 
> > > denial associated with it.
> 
> > So let's discuss that. What is the scope of this "campaign"? 
> > How "organized" do you think they are? When you say they 
> > "deny the Holocaust", what exactly to do mean? (Before 
> > answering that you'll have to give us a definition of what 
> > "the Holocaust" encompasses.) And who is this "they"? A 
> > conspiracy of some sort? Who are its members? What do 
> > they do to further their cause and how? Is there one or 
> > more leaders involved? Who are these people? Why do 
> > they do what they do? Are they succeeding? What effects 
> > will their plot(s) entail (both short- and long-term)?
> 
> Do you read *any* articles in this newsgroup, other than 
> flame opportunities?

Yes.

> Seek it out in your beloved DejaNews.  Read Zuendel's
> web site--*really* read it.  Ditto for the NA slimebuckets 
> and the NSWPP.

I asked John some serious questions. I'd like to hear his opinions and ideas
on the matter. If you are so inclined, post yours.

> > > If you don't think that's a good enough reason for
> > > someone to take an interest in the subject, too bad.
> 
> > For who?
> 
> You.

I doubt that.

[.sig beaten up]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:48 EDT 1997
Article: 143877 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Answers to M. Curtis part 1.
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <34562a56.2611826@news.demon.co.uk> <34500769.432838158@news.jump.net> <345acd9a.3595608@news.demon.co.uk> <01bce013$eaa4ca80$7155eccd@odin> <3452a7f5.605035548@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce093$34d749f0$27718bcf@odin>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
Date: 24 Oct 97 15:44:47 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143877

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3452a7f5.605035548@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >> Really? I haven't noticed much. I have read a few postings 
> >> about how the soap story was taken very seriously just after 
> >> the war - including a funeral.
> >
> >< begin quote >
> >
> >Renowned "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal repeated the soap 
> >tale in a series of articles published in 1946 in the Austrian Jewish 
>>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >community paper Der Neue
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> 1946! Wiesenthal is NOT an historian. 

I know. He's a charlatan.

> 1946 is a long time ago. 

And?

> What do historians tell us about this, Sabatini?

You were yapping how no one believes or hears about the soap and lampshade
stories, Curtis. I showed that you're wrong.

> >He hasn't a clue. But I suspect that the majority of Holocaust 
> >historians have not bothered doing their own, original work. 
> >In fact, I believe most of their research is based on two or 
> >three sources. I've asked about this in the past but no answer 
> >was forthcoming. This might actually make an interesting little
> >pet project once I get the time.
> 
> What two sources? 
> What have you read to make this assertion?

You didn't bother reading what I wrote, Curtis. In your haste to burn another
witch, you must have missed the part when I said:

"I've asked about this in the past but no answer was forthcoming. This might
actually make an interesting little pet project once I get the time."

I made no "assertions", Curtis. You're lying again.

> [snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:49 EDT 1997
Article: 143880 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Holocaust Calendar: October 24
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <62pa0l$rv$1@news.trends.ca>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce094$6af4eff0$27718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
Date: 24 Oct 97 15:53:27 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143880

[newsgroups trimmed to alt.revisionism]

Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote in article
<62pa0l$rv$1@news.trends.ca>...
> [Follow-ups set]
> 
> October 24
> 
> 1944
> 
> A transport of three hundred prisoners, a third of whom are
> Jewish, 

How about the others, Mr. McVay? The other two thirds of the prisoners. Why
mention only the Jewish ones, Mr. McVay?

> is sent from the Bolzano-Gries transit camp to
> Auschwitz-Birkenau, arriving there on October 28. (USHMM, 
> 1994, p. 64)

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:50 EDT 1997
Article: 143882 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: The mendacious mis-uses of the Holocaust (was: Yet another round of Gobbledi-talk (tm))
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk>  <344AEA32.3289C049@aol.com> <01bcddcc$41758920$6e55eccd@odin>  <345021B7.4638@concentric.net> <01bce020$4a970dc0$64a1cdcd@odin> <345066AA.3A14@concentric.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce096$232e14b0$27718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
Date: 24 Oct 97 16:05:46 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143882

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<345066AA.3A14@concentric.net>...
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> > 
> > Michael Ives  wrote in article
> > <345021B7.4638@concentric.net>...
> > > Daniel Keren wrote:
> > > > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > >
> > > > # That's fine, but this issue is not only one of the U.S. helping
> > > > # Israel. You are right that the States didn't help them out at
> > > > # that time,
> > >
> > > Anthony, did you really say this?  Did you miss the following exchange
> > > in another branch of this thread?
> > 
> > Yes, I did. Thanks for the re-post, Michael.
> > 
> > > Daniel Keren wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Michael Ives  writes:
> > > > # Daniel Keren wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ## Also, to the best of my knowledge, the US hardly helped Israel
> > > > ## during its most difficult period - the 1948 war; it began
> > > > ## sending military equipment to Israel only in the late 1960's.
> > > >
> > > > # The best of Keren's knowledge isn't too good then, which comes
> > > > # as no surprise.  President Harry S Truman recognized the
> > > > # legitimacy of the imperialist enterprise in Palestine only hours
> > > > # after its proclamation in 1948, becoming the first world leader
> > > > # to do so.  This, as can be seen from the relevant document,
> > > > # occurred even before that enterprise had a name: the typewritten
> > > > # document recognizes "the Jewish state" which was later crossed
> > > > # out by pen and overwritten "Israel".
> > 
> > By "pen"? Did you say, "pen"?
> 
> To the best of my recollection.  I did see the actual document.  The
> words "the Jewish state" were typewritten (as was the rest of the
> document) and then crossed out and overwritten by hand.  Maybe they
> should have used a pencil?

Were the situation not so sad, it would be to laugh.

> > > > Totally irrelevant. I was talking about military support. As
> > > > far as I know, nearly all of Israel's weapons were of French
> > > > and British make - until the late 1960's. For instance, all
> > > > of Israel's air force, until that period, was composed of
> > > > French planes.
> > >
> > > That the "leader of the free world" gave his imprimateur to the
> > > imperialist adventure in Palestine within mere hours of its
> > > proclamation conferred a perceived legitimacy that no money
> > > could buy.  (But who knows, maybe money did buy it.)  At any
> > > rate, guns could be (and were) bought anywhere.  But the
> > > stamp of approval of the United States of America was
> > > irreplaceable.  "Totally irrelevant"?  I don't think so.
> > >
> > > Now other countries have indeed contributed arms to the
> > > Zionist enterprise, and France is a good example.  Without
> > > France, for instance, there would probably be no weapons of
> > > mass destruction in the Middle East.  Some accomplishment.
> > > It's certainly odd that the prospect of mass murder is so
> > > enticing to the same people who claim to have been a
> > > victim of it some years before.
> > >
> > > > # The document resides in the National Archives in
> > > > # Washington, D.C.
> > > >
> > > > As do many other interesting documents.
> > >
> > > Some of them even pertain to the United States, however hard
> > > that may be for you to swallow.
> > 
> > Excellent post, Michael.
> > 
> > The entire point of this thread is to show how the Holocaust has 
> > indeed been used for monetary, military and political gain, as 
> > well as how it is cunningly used as tool for inducing guilt.
> > 
> 
> A valid point.  Although I still don't see how people who had 
> nothing to do with it, however historically true "it" actually is, 
> can be held responsible for it.  I think it's more important that 
> the ruling class seeks to make itself invulnerable to criticism 
> on any account via the holocaust story.

Exactly so. But the Nizkooks and other rabid fanatics here only see things in
black & white; that is, they adopt the extremist view that if one condemns the
(blatant) misuses of the Holocaust, one is condemning all Jews. Such puerile
tactics, regardless how overused they are, seem to work exceedingly well
considering the present situation.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:50 EDT 1997
Article: 143883 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: - gas chamber door.jpg (0/2) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce096$b4ee8ce0$27718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
Date: 24 Oct 97 16:09:51 GMT
Lines: 20
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.eecs.umich.edu!zdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!nntp.kreonet.re.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.39
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143883

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> 
> Document 11 (left) and Document 12 (right)
> 
> Caption to Document 11: 
> 
> "Photograph of the exterior of a gas-tight door [Warsaw Central
> Committee Archives, ref 23]""
> 
> Caption to Document 12: 
> 
> "Photograph of the interior of a gas-tight door [Warsaw Central
> Committee Archives, ref 17]""

Unsurprisingly, this picture does not contain engineering plans for a gas
chamber. Who is Markie-pooh trying to fool?

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:51 EDT 1997
Article: 143886 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: - KrII invoice (motors).jpg (1/4) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce097$46d85f00$27718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
Date: 24 Oct 97 16:13:55 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!News.NetUSA.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.39
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143886

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut here
> begin 644 KrII invoice (motors).jpg

[snip UUEncoded JPG]

*Still* no plans of a gas chamber.

Shall I re-post the picture of a computer case to show you what kind of plans
are being requested or what?




From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:51 EDT 1997
Article: 143894 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!ix.netcom.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL nitwit says
Date: 24 Oct 1997 16:19:30 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <01bce097$e978e8b0$27718bcf@odin>
References: <345648c3.44730755@dnews.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143894

tom moran  wrote in article
<345648c3.44730755@dnews.pacificnet.net>...
> 
> 	"Frankly, protecting Europeans against hate crimes is not the
> burning issue of the day."

Of course not. What is important is this $$$$$$. To wit:

"The ADL, like the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, has built its
financial appeal to Jews on its ability to portray the Jewish people as
surrounded by enemies who are on the verge of launching threatening
anti-Semitic campaigns. It has a professional stake in exaggerating the
dangers, and sometimes allows existing racial or political prejudices in the
Jewish world to influence how it will portray the potential dangers." -
Michael Lerner, ex-ADL president, in _Jews and Blacks: Let the Healing Begin_

> (Barbara Bergen, California regional director for the Anti-Defmation
> League, who denied a European-American volunteer group participation
> in a coalition dealing with "hate crimes".
> 
> (Reported in the San Mateo County Times, July 19, 1997)



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:52 EDT 1997
Article: 143895 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: - gas chamber door (zoom).jpg (0/1) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce097$755cc9b0$27718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
Date: 24 Oct 97 16:15:13 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143895

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> 
> Document 13
> 
> Caption: 
> 
> "Details of the interior of the gas-tight door found in the Bauhof in 1945:
> the hemisherical grid protecting the inspection peephole. [Warsaw Central
> Committee Archives, ref 40]"
> 
> Source: Pressac, _Technique_, p.486.

[...]

Of course, no engineering plans for a gas chamber are presented. Neither is an
operations manual. Why do I get the feeling these two items do not exist?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:52 EDT 1997
Article: 143897 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: - KrII invoice (door).jpg (0/2) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce097$0e486400$27718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
Date: 24 Oct 97 16:12:21 GMT
Lines: 28
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ais.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.39
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143897

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> 
> Document A
> 
> Caption: None
> 
> Source: Pressac, _Technique_, p.430.
> 
> Commentary:
> 
> According to Pressac:
> 
> 
> 
> The first document [Document A] presented here is an inventory of equipment
> installed in Krematorium III and formed part of the file of documents
> compiled for the official handover of the ne w building to the camp
> administration.

[...]

Predictably, this JPG doesn't contain any engineering plans for a gas chamber
either.

Does Markie-pooh at least have an operations manual for one of these devices?
Of did the Nazis learn how to use and maintain it through telepathy?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:53 EDT 1997
Article: 143899 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!scanner.worldgate.com!news.he.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anthony Sabatini-Phelps
Date: 24 Oct 1997 16:34:43 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <01bce09a$09175240$27718bcf@odin>
References: <199710222022.UAA23144@sample.essenet.it>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.homosexuality:113934 alt.revisionism:143899

ehoffer@freeweb.essenet.it wrote in article
<199710222022.UAA23144@sample.essenet.it>...
> Anthony-Phelps, the tone of your response proved my point more
> eloquently than I ever could.

Truly? How so? Do try to be specific.

> The only 'diversity' of your family's pollution in aph, ar and
> the other groups you bless with your presence is the degree
> and nature of the abuse you gleefully heap on those who
> disagree with you. Some of you rant, others of you cajole. 

Would that be more or less "abuse" than *you* "heap on those who disagree with
you"? LOL! You're a real piece of something, Hoffer.

Just out of curiosity, why did you start attacking me with your bullshit?

> One more thing, 'Anthony'. Headers can lie and nearly always
> do when the poster is a Phelps.

IOW, you haven't got a single shred of evidence to support your wild and
libelous claims. No one is surprised.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:54 EDT 1997
Article: 143940 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!News.NetUSA.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Date: 24 Oct 1997 17:21:26 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 146
Message-ID: <01bce0a0$900c5dd0$27718bcf@odin>
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net> <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin> <34510e91.679318@news.jump.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143940

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<34510e91.679318@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >> >Those are floor plans, you moron! You have been asked to 
> >> >produce plans for a *gas chamber*, along with an operations 
> >> >manual or something of that nature. What a lying piece of...
> >> >well, you know.
> >> 
> >> Yup, here's the reply. Nothing will be good enough for these 
> >> guys, Mark. It won't matter if you explain it to them like a 
> >> child, it'll still be not good enough.
> >
> >LOL! What a transparent evasion! Curtis, you must really think 
> >people are stupid; otherwise,
> 
> I think you haven't a clue about convergence and the reading of 
> these documents. 

IOW, you haven't got any engineering plans for a gas chamber, nor can you
produce an operations manual at the very least. Why not just say that in the
first place, Curtis? Who are you trying to fool?

Had you been honest in the first place and admitted you have no such plans,
but instead had a whole bunch of other evidence, many folks would feel less
included to not trust you. But you don't understand that, Curtis. And I fear
you never will.

> So, yes, I think you have much to learn. 

Don't we all? Well, maybe not you since you have already claimed to know so
much.

> But that's not why you are here. You are to be the jester.

Not even close, Curtis.

> >why bother with such a facile lie? You kooks were asked to
> >present the engineering plans and/or an operations manual
> >for a *gas chamber*, not layouts of the floor plan of a 
> >crematoria! If you cannot see the difference, I fear you are 
> >beyond help. But I suspect you are merely playing dumb 
> >again, at game at which you excel.

Truth hurts, doesn't it, Curtis?

> >It is becoming more and more obvious that you haven't got 
> >these plans, nor an operations manual. As usual, you're hard, 
> >solid evidence is lacking but you are more than willing to 
> >make up for that with personal beliefs.
> 
> We will never have the plans even if they said what you want. 

That's a blatant lie, Curtis.

> The denier game will be to cry forgery. 

No, I'll accept the diagrams. What have I ever claimed was a "forgery"?

> You do play the denier game well, Sabatini. 

I have no idea what "game" that is, Curtis. Explain it in detail.

> I'm glad you have resigned to show everyone exactly 
> what you really are.

Yes, someone who, after reading months of your bullshit and semi-honesty, will
not take you at face value. And you people prove to readers time and time
again that you are not to be trusted. Look at what you kooks have been doing
about these plans. You didn't honestly admit from the onset that you didn't
have 'em or an operations and/or maintenance manual of some kind. Instead, you
played your Nizkook game of Gobbledi-talk (tm) wherein you tried to obfuscate
the issue. You even blatantly lied about what had been posted; I asked for
engineering plans of a gas chamber and you dolts posted floor layouts. In
short, you people aren't very honest and up front (regardless of what you
claim about others).

> >> >> ...And in which Bischoff, in a letter to Kammler, referred to 
> >> >> L.Keller 1 not as a Leichenskeller but as a _Vergasungskeller_ 
> >> >> -i.e. as a gassing cellar? 
> >> >> 
> >> >> See: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/bischoff.002
> >> >>
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/a/abels.nele/vergasungskeller-essay
> >> >
> >> >Very nice, but *still* no plans. Is anyone surprised?
> >> 
> >> Makes one wonder if Sabatini tried to understand any of it.
> >
> >I look at the _floor plans_ and read the documents (including a 
> >few others at the Nizkult), Curtis. None of it was what you were 
> >asked for. You know that, Curtis. I wonder why you're playing 
> >such a transparent game...?

No answer?

> >> I also see that Phillips will pretend he didn't see this for 
> >> he's not going to post to Mark. 
> >
> >Hope for your sake that Mr. Phillips does not see the floor 
> >plans you've presented. If he does, he's liable to bust a gut 
> >from laughter.
> >
> >> What a hoot these guys are.
> >
> >Not nearly as entertaining as watching you kooks run around 
> >in a vain attempt at damage control whenever you're shown 
> >up.
> >
> >Let's tally this up. So far, we have:
> >
> >1. No viable means of obtaining human remains that will 
> >reasonably shed light as to the total number of deaths 
> >claimed for the Holocaust.
> >
> >2. No plans and/or operations manual for a gas chamber.
> >
> >[.sig belted. A lot.]
> 
> Yup, a total waste of effort, Mr. Mock. 

IOW, another direct hit. LOL!

> I wouldn't lift a finger for these guys. 

Yeah, yeah. We know. We're not worthy. (Do you really take yourself as
seriously as you seem to when spouting crap like that?)

> Make them do their own research. At least they can sit at
> their computers and say they went to the library and found 
> nothing they wanted to see. The problem is that most folks 
> will look at the material and read the associated documents 
> and come to other conclusions. 

Pretty speech, Curtis. Now, about those plans...  LOL!

> Those are the honest folks without the agendas.

What would *you* know of "honest folks without the agendas", Curtis? You've
been shown to be as dishonest as they get (see above) and you even recently
admitted that you've been "lying about your perceptions" (or some similar
rubbish). As to "agendas", maybe it's about time you and your fellow Nizkooks
come clean about that, too.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:54 EDT 1997
Article: 143946 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Date: 24 Oct 1997 17:42:23 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <01bce0a3$7dd6a000$27718bcf@odin>
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin>  <01bcdf4f$166ace00$550bcdcd@odin> <344ff941$14$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143946

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344ff941$14$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bcdf4f$166ace00$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/23/97 
>    at 01:04 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > > Oops! Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini once more 
> > > inserts head up ass.
> 
> > How can you tell while yours remains firmly planted between the
> > buttocks of your silly Ostroll?
> 
> Nice mature touch.

And yet Gord McFee was strangely silent about Van Alstine's comments. Strange,
that... Well, not really.

[.sig sentenced to death]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:55 EDT 1997
Article: 143947 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!ais.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
Date: 24 Oct 1997 17:24:48 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <01bce0a1$08ef0590$27718bcf@odin>
References: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net> <19971022181200.OAA02211@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net> <01bcdf2c$8c03ddf0$ae56eccd@odin> <345081d6.2299479@news.jump.net> <01bcdf43$5c4bddd0$550bcdcd@odin> <344ff24b$9$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143947

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344ff24b$9$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bcdf43$5c4bddd0$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/22/97 
>    at 11:40 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > > >He's exposing himself.  *Shudder*  ;-)
> > > 
> > > And you speak of Mark Van Alstine's alledged dirty mind?
> 
> > That was a joke. Notice the smiley. Besides, I've never accused
> > Markie-pooh of have a "dirty mind"; his is simply _filthy_.  ;-)
> 
> Of course Anthony, when you say it, it is a joke. When Van 
> Alstine says it, it is filth.  

He doesn't ever claim "it's a joke"!

> Just say whatever you want, and throw in a smiley, and
> everything is OK.

The joke was a pun on "exposing". Re-read the thread if you still don't get
it.

[.sig pelted with rotting vegetables]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:55 EDT 1997
Article: 143950 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news.misty.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Date: 24 Oct 1997 17:40:48 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <01bce0a3$45621c40$27718bcf@odin>
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin> <345284a9.3022250@news.jump.net> <01bcdf45$24289c70$550bcdcd@odin> <344ff642$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143950

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344ff642$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bcdf45$24289c70$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/22/97 
>    at 11:53 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> > <345284a9.3022250@news.jump.net>...
> > > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> > > 
> > > >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> > > ><344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net>...
> > > >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> Anthony, why are you trailing Mike Curtis around like a little 
> groupie? Isn't that what you accused me of doing to Giwer?

No, Curtis attracted my attention by continuing his character assassination
(specifically mentioning me). Now I'm just takin' out the trash!

[.sig forced to walk the plank]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Fri Oct 24 17:30:56 EDT 1997
Article: 143986 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news2.interlog.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.43.3.4!gryphon.phoenix.net!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Date: 24 Oct 1997 17:57:29 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <01bce0a5$99cdfa90$27718bcf@odin>
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <01bce090$69841eb0$27718bcf@odin> <3450d790.617225006@news.jump.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.39
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:143986

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3450d790.617225006@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Do you understand now?
> 
> Yes, I understand that you are a denier.

IOW, you are unable to withstand the truth, and true to your Nizkook heritage
you will begin the sacred game of Gobbledi-talk (tm) where the goal is
obfuscation through lying, half-truths, snipping crucial text, taking things
out of context, etc.

Here is (the important) part of what the craven Curtis snipped (without
indication, of course!):

< begin quote >

Pretty speech, but you've obviously misunderstood what Mr. McClelland was
saying (no doubt in your haste to uncover another heretic!). His point was
directed at Daniel Keren, for starters, and was simply to explain to him how
people can get angry when he defends obvious frauds and liars such as Moshe
Peer. Remember, Danny has accused many of "defending the most ridiculous
'denier' claims", yet here he is do the same with the amazing Moshe Peer fairy
tale.

< end quote >



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:21 EDT 1997
Article: 144042 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.theriver.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Date: 24 Oct 1997 23:34:46 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <01bce0d4$b52412a0$a3a1cdcd@odin>
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin>  <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk>    <3449e981.910912@news.demon.co.uk>    <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk> <3446c050$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.163
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144042

Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk>...
> Gord McFee  wrote:
> 
> >In <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/16/97 
> >   at 10:44 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> >said:
> >
> >> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

[...]

[About Matt Giwer:]
> >This is a guy who entered the newsgroup with the stated 
> >purpose of destroying it, 
> 
> I understood that that statement came after a few weeks or 
> so of aggressive argument. But so what? Is it a sin to say 
> that you want to destroy a newsgroup? Blimey!
> 
> >who threatened death to at least three people I am 
> >aware of, 
> 
> Some of those "death threats" I do not consider death 
> threats at all.

I was once accused of having "thin skin" in this newsgroup, but the Nizkooks
have shown time and time again how thin theirs is, although whether this is by
design or happenstance is yet to be determined. Right now, I tend to think it
is the former, though.

[...]

> >who wrote fake messages to himself and accused 
> >others--always Jews--of mailbombing him, 

Do you any proof of this?

> I cannot, in my wildest imaginings, see Nazis mail bombing 
> Matt Giwer - can you? Unless of course they wanted to 
> make him _think_ that Jews were doing it - so that he 
> would attack Jews. But that would make them a bit clever,
> and they are all supposed to be incredibly stupid.
> 
> >who exulted in racist, antisemitic, and sexist remarks,
> 
> That is three types of disapproved remarks. What is the difference
> between racist and anti-Semitic? 

There shouldn't be any. However, as I explain in another thread, certain
scumbag opportunists are well aware of the marketing power of special terms
and labels.

> If you say that the latter is a religion, then why not complain 
> about the anti-Christian and anti-Catholic remarks which he 
> also made? 

Possibly because there is little, if any, money to be made fighting
anti-Catholicism, for example. I don't think this is the case with Gord, but
it definitely applies to a certain group of greedy charlatans who pose as
various 'organizations'.

> If Judaism is a race, then why bother to use the magic 
> "anti-Semitism" word when you have already said racism? 

It is simply a marketing ploy. Companies spend billions of dollars a year
trying to develop new strategies to differentiate their product from
competitors; to set their items apart from the rest, no matter how similar
they are. This is done to confer a special (but imaginary) distinctness in
order to sell more product.

> This is not sophistry by me Gord, I just think that you
> are doubling up.

It's not Gord's fault. The 'uniqueness' of the "anti-Semitism (tm)" canard has
been pushed on us by the media.

[...]

> >and the list is endless.  
> 
> Of course it is, the demon Giwer is to be execrated at all times. 
> What a waste of time, and how it shows up his "enemies" in a 
> bad light. Those "Of the angels" who just ignore him look much 
> better as a result of their doing so.

Those "of the angels" here often appear blinded by their own light.

It still amazes me at the amount of time they spend on Giwer. I suspect that
these folks _still_ do not understand that they 'feed' Giwer. Without their
constant prodding, I don't think Matt would be nearly half as inflammatory as
he is. They just don't get it.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:22 EDT 1997
Article: 144079 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: - LK1 fan (1/1) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce0f3$5aa15ad0$a3a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.163
Date: 25 Oct 97 03:13:22 GMT
Lines: 6
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-fra.maz.net!news.seicom.net!newsfeed.pop.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.161.163
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144079

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut hereEND -- Cut Here -- cut here

Wrong attachment, I think. You just attached the text from "LK1 fan (0/1)".



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:23 EDT 1997
Article: 144085 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin> <345284a9.3022250@news.jump.net> <01bcdf45$24289c70$550bcdcd@odin> <344ff642$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce0a3$45621c40$27718bcf@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce0e5$fed66f90$a3a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.163
Date: 25 Oct 97 01:37:39 GMT
Lines: 37
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news.misty.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.161.163
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144085

Mark Van Alstine  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce0a3$45621c40$27718bcf@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article

[headers snipped]

> > > Anthony, why are you trailing Mike Curtis around like 
> > > a little groupie? Isn't that what you accused me of 
> > > doing to Giwer?
> > 
> > No, Curtis attracted my attention by continuing his 
> > character assassination (specifically mentioning me). Now 
> > I'm just takin' out the trash!
> 
> May I remind Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini to 
> please close he lid on the garbage can when he throws 
> himself away? Public health and all, ya know....

I wouldn't take too much if I were, Oscar...

[VanSlander (tm) zapped with 'giant death ray']

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this venomous viper, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:24 EDT 1997
Article: 144086 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin>  <01bcdf4f$166ace00$550bcdcd@odin> <344ff941$14$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce0a3$7dd6a000$27718bcf@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce0e6$b504c5a0$a3a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.163
Date: 25 Oct 97 01:42:43 GMT
Lines: 46
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!uunet!in4.uu.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.161.163
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144086

Mark Van Alstine  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce0a3$7dd6a000$27718bcf@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <344ff941$14$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <01bcdf4f$166ace00$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/23/97 
> > >    at 01:04 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > > 
> > > > > Oops! Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" 
> > > > > Sabatini once more inserts head up ass.
> > > 
> > > > How can you tell while yours remains firmly 
> > > > planted between the buttocks of your silly 
> > > > Ostroll?
> > > 
> > > Nice mature touch.
> > 
> > And yet Gord McFee was strangely silent about Van 
> > Alstine's comments. Strange, that... Well, not really.
> 
> Well, Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini _did_ 
> insert his head up his ass! Again. No suprises there!

Come up for air from the Ostroll's rump, have you?

> Gotta call 'em like I see 'em! 

Speaking of, I'm having trouble "seeing" many of the pics you posted on
account of missing parts. Next time try to post the entire picture in one
message.

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) kicked in the teeth]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:26 EDT 1997
Article: 144094 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: - LK1 Zyklon intro device.jpg (0/6) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce0f1$63a15970$a3a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.163
Date: 25 Oct 97 02:59:20 GMT
Lines: 76
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!ix.netcom.com!zdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.161.163
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144094

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> 
> Document 14
> 
> Caption: 
> 
> 
> 
> SCHEMATIC DIAGRAM OF A ZYKLON-B INTRODUCTION COLUMN

The picture provided for this "document" is not an engineering "schematic" by
any stretch of the imagination. It is a picture drawn in pencil with what
looks like Scotch-taped descriptions added to the sheet. Said taped-on
description are in French.

> Based on the deposition of 11th June 1945 made by Michal 
> KULA, former prisoner 2718 who worked in the metal 
> morking shop where these columns were made.

Ah, another eyewitness testimony. We wouldn't by any chance happen to have one
of these gas funnels, would we? Perhaps at the USHMM?

> 
> 
> Source: Pressac, _Technique_, p.487
> 
> Commentary:
> 
> According to Piper:
> 
> 

[description snipped -- see source below]

> Photographs taken by Allied aircraft in 1944 indicate that the gas
> introduction columns of crematorium II 

I assume these pictures are available at the Nizkult? If so, can you please
provide an URL?

> were arrayed in a straight line, whereas in crematorium 
> III they were spaced along the longitudinal axis of both 
> sides of the axis. This placement was meant to ensure 
> rapid and uniform spread of the poison inside the 
> chamber.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Gutman, _anatomy_, p.167.
> 
> See also: 
> 
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images/intro-de
> vice-1.gif

The above URL leads to a computer-generated graphic of one of these gas
funnels, apparently created by Markie-pooh himself (judging from the
copyright). You don't really expect something like this to be taken as
evidence, do you? Let's take a look at those military photographs mentioned
above.

[.sig hacked off]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:27 EDT 1997
Article: 144101 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: - LK1 cross.jpg (0/1) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce0f2$e53cb640$a3a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.163
Date: 25 Oct 97 03:10:05 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!island.idirect.com!news.rns.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news-chi-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-dc-26.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.161.163
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144101

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> 
> HUTA Drawing 109/13A OF 21/9/43 [Regularization]
> 
> Caption: 
> 
> "Photograph of the exterior of a gas-tight door [Warsaw Central
> Committee Archives, ref 23]"

There is no "photograph" here. Perhaps you posted this elsewhere...?

> Caption to Document 12: 
> 
> 

[snipped 'quote' (as such)]

> 
> 
> Source: Pressac, _Technique_, p.322-323.
> 
> Commentary:
> 
> 
> 
> Tranlation of inscriptions:
> 
> -   Grundriß/Plan
> 
> -   Schnitt a-a/Cross-section a-a [Leichenkeller 1]
> -   Auffu"lung/Earth bank
> -   Isolierung 3 Lagig/Damp-proofing 3 layers [floor]
> -   2 lagig/2 layer [walls]
> -   1 lagig/1 layer [roof]
> 
> -   Schnitt b-b/Cross-section b-b [Leichenkeller 2]
> -   Isolierung 1 Lagig/Damp-proofing 1 layers [roof]
> -   3 lagig/3 layer [walls and floor]
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Pressac, _Technique_, p.322.
> 
> Note: Image is of Cross-section a-a [Leichenkeller 1] only.

Markie-pooh finally presents a schematic of a door (cross-section). Great.
>From  whence does this drawing come? That is to say, who drew it and when?

[.sig dumped down the river in an old sack of potatoes]

-- 
Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this unmitigated ass, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:28 EDT 1997
Article: 144102 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.idt.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Date: 25 Oct 1997 03:23:48 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <01bce0f4$aad63ba0$a3a1cdcd@odin>
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin>  <34395921.78363@news.demon.co.uk>  <343ade38$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <3448a68d.2663945@news.demon.co.uk>    <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk>  <344181f0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <3443e648.85380@news.demon.co.uk> <3446b797$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34551918.2042273@news.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.163
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144102

Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<34551918.2042273@news.demon.co.uk>...
> Gord McFee  wrote:

[...]

> >I am well aware of the events that happened before that.
> >The exchange between Rosenberg and Giwer had nothing 
> >to do with the phone call to Giwer's father. Rosenberg had 
> >nothing to do with it either.
> 
> I do not say that My rosenberg was in any way involved in 
> the phone calls. However, it has to be said that Mr Giwer 
> would have to be mad not to feel a certain sense of personal 
> threat - or at least a threat to his aged, and now dead I 
> believe, father - when said aged P. received a phone call 
> asking for Matt. What could follow that? Anything, from 
> what I understand about America. Look at the things
> which have happened in France, to Faurisson I believe, at 
> to Ernst Zundel in Canada. I know that at least one 
> Revisionist in Britain was beaten up. 

For more details on how 'heretics' are dealt with by our 'peace-loving'
Holo-Clones (tm), please see:

http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:29 EDT 1997
Article: 144125 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Battle-mad Van Alstines rages again (was: Theological Declaration of Barmen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <01bcdc10$78aef290$53a1cdcd@odin>  <3449E967.1809@concentric.net>   
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdd88$f2822f00$a57acdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.122.165
Date: 20 Oct 97 18:53:50 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144125

Mark (aka Titania, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine  brayed in
article ...
> In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> > Michael Ives  writes:

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^

> > 
> > # Anthony, mightn't it also be accurate to say that Christ
> > # not only _transcended_ Judaism, he _renounced_ it?
> > 
> > No, it is totally inaccurate to say this; and it proves that
> > your knowledge in this field, too, is zero.
> > 
> > Jesus renounced and criticized the Jewish religious
> > establishment, not Judaism.
> > 
> > There are many ultra-orthodox Jews who severely criticize
> > the Jewish religious establishment, but not Judaism.
> > 
> > # I am unaware of any Christian proscription against saying
> > # the words "beast" and "crazed animal"!
> > 
> > As I said, your knowledge is zero.
> > 
> > # On the other hand, perhaps Mr Keren will elaborate on the
> > # theological underpinnings of his cohort Van Alstine's
> > # language such as this from Friday:
> > #
> > # "Mr. Ives is an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who
> > # loves bending over and taking it in the ass from his
> > # Nazi buddies." "
> 
> Tsk tsk. Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini, being the low-life he
> is, intentionally misquotes me again. No suprise there, given his virulent
> hatreds and complete lack of integrity. 

The battle-mad Van Alstine froths at the mouth and again proves that he
totally loses sight of everything else when in one of his berserk-like rages.
In fact, he has once again (!!!) been 'hoisted by his own petard' in that I
never accused him of what he is babbling about (above). He is apparently
responding -- in his inimitable, spittle-flinging way -- to something Mr. Ives
wrote. But, of course, because of his "virulent hatreds and complete lack of
integrity", he will never apologize for this unprovoked attack.

> (Does this mean he would try to beat me with a pickaxe too?)

I would not waste the otherwise useful wood on one as lowly as you. But more
and more I am beginning to believe you should be caged and sent to obedience
school.

[Van Alstine's cheesy excuse snipped]

> In Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's case, however, 
> given that he _is_ an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who loves 
> bending over and taking it in the ass from his Nazi buddies" one 
> is hard pressed to tell where commentary on behavior ends and 
> personal slurs begins! LOL!

Enraged beast that he is, Van Alstine makes another unprovoked attack. But
then again, it was also this same savage animal who recently charged blindly
(as is his wont) and viciously attacked *one of his own fellow travelers* like
the rabid cur he is.

[snip, including silly .sig, snipped]

Lest any forget:

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:30 EDT 1997
Article: 144168 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: [REPOST for Curtis] Nizkor = Propaganda (Details inside!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdda0$1c278870$fb718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.251
Date: 20 Oct 97 21:39:49 GMT
Lines: 33
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!oronet!uniserve!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.251
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144168

Since Nizkor is an organization with "a completely open and visible agenda"
(as stated on their Web site: http://www.nizkor.org/objectives.html), we
are forced to define it, by it's very nature, as nothing short of
propaganda.

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines propaganda as:

2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping
or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause
or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an
effect

Clearly, this is the case with respect to Nizkor. As such, we should take
their so-called 'facts' and other 'evidence' with a grain of salt. The
'proof' that they continuously offer (to anyone willing to listen) is
designed to win one over to their way of thinking.

Nizkor has always been vehemently opposed to "the propaganda campaigns of
racist and antidemocratic individuals and organizations conducted through
computer networks" (source: the Nizkor Web site listed above). Notice how
they conveniently leave out their own propaganda as one to oppose.

Hypocrites.

It is important to note that they are indeed allowed to share their
opinion(s) with others--after all, that is what UseNet newsgroups are for.
However, we have to be wary whenever they make various assertions and
statements of 'fact' (which seems to be more the rule than the exception)
and whenever the Nizkorites belittle or otherwise attempt to smear
someone's name.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:31 EDT 1997
Article: 144171 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: [REPOST 2 for Curtis] Extreme Propaganda: Nizkor's DEOMI Article
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdda1$1bec10a0$fb718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.251
Date: 20 Oct 97 21:46:59 GMT
Lines: 67
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.251
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144171

Another re-post for Curtis' benefit, this time from August 2, 1997, detailing
more of the Nizkult's propaganda-speading.

< begin re-post >

One of Nizkor's latest additions to their ever-expanding "Electronic
Holocaust"
propaganda is an article from the DEFENSE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY MANAGEMENT
INSTITUTE, written by one Chaplain Carlos C. Huerta, a captain by rank.

Judging from the description of this piece (reproduced below), one gets the
impression that this Institute is nothing more than one of those 'sensitivity
training' groups that have profited from the current era of Political
Correctness.

"The Topical Research Intern Program provides the opportunity for
Servicemembers and DoD civilian employees to work on diversity/equal
opportunity projects while on a 30-day tour of duty at the Institute. During
their tour, the interns use a variety of primary and secondary source
materials
to complile a review of data or research pertaining to an issue of importance
to equal opportunity (EO) and equal employment opportunity (EEO) specialists,
supervisors, and other leaders throughout the Services."

Taken from:
http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/american/united-states/department-of-def
e
nse/deomi/holocaust-revisionism.001

The entire article appears to be little more than cheap anti-revisionist
propaganda, and I encourage readers to peruse the whole thing (URL below) and
post their opinions of the piece here. I myself am at a loss for words
regarding the article, but I will comment on the closing paragraph:

"A successful fighting force is a cohesive one, one where all members have
respect for each other's diversity and dignity. Holocaust revisionism has the
potential to destroy that respect. One of the most important missions that
commanders have is the mission to "Protect the Force." Part of that protection
requires that we be aware of movements that might weaken the effectiveness of
our fighting forces. Our service members are recruited from society and, as a
consequence, we inherit the prejudices and problems of the society. Holocaust
revisionism is a real force, such as racism, hatred, or discrimination, that
must be dealt with. Not to` deal with it is not to give our members in uniform
the support that they need to defend this Nation."

Taken from:
http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/american/united-states/department-of-def
e
nse/deomi/holocaust-revisionism.006

I'm not an American, so I really have no business discussing their military,
but I'd like to ask a question regarding this last paragraph. Might not
differing politics amongst servicemen be an equal threat to the "cohesiveness"
of the American "fighting forces" such as he claims revisionism is?

I don't know, folks, but they get any cheaper when it comes to
anti-revisionist
propaganda?

For the entire, ridiculous affair, please jump to the following URL:

http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/american/united-states/department-of-def
e
nse/deomi

< end re-post >



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:32 EDT 1997
Article: 144176 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Theological Declaration of Barmen
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <01bcdc4f$42e2d3e0$e2a2cdcd@odin>  <01bcdcb2$ffb0fd90$d856eccd@odin>  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdda7$7c7c7760$fb718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.251
Date: 20 Oct 97 22:32:41 GMT
Lines: 51
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.113.251
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144176

Mark (aka Titania, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine  brayed in
article ...
> In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > # Daniel Keren  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > ## (Not being a hapless lamb) != (calling people "mad beasts").
> > ##
> > ## Maybe writing in pseudo-C code is the only way to approach
> > ## these X-generation kids :-).
> > 
> > #  #define TRUE !0
> > #
> > #  #ifndef what_is_relationship_between_christian_and_
> > #  callingpeoplemadbeasts
> > #  #define prompt_for_explanation = TRUE
> > #  #endif
> > 
> > Heck, junior! You're talking to an old timer Fortran
> > programmer here! Have mercy! :-)
> 
> It's easy. What Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini meant was: 

You haven't a clue, little puppet.

> "Duh?"

Titania the Savage Fairy (Mark Van Alstine) is trying to speak English again.
Free clue: you'll have to wipe the spittle and drool from your maw first,
Markie-pooh.

> [snip]

[silly .sig and patented VanSlander (tm) beaten with a pickaxe handle]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:33 EDT 1997
Article: 144183 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs. Mock IV
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34495A46.6AA5@earthlink.net>  <344BBD3F.79E1@earthlink.net> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddb4$ca6e4f90$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 00:07:56 GMT
Lines: 37
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!oronet!uniserve!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144183

Mark (aka Titania the Savage Fairy, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine
 brayed piteously in article
...
> In article <344BBD3F.79E1@earthlink.net>, rgphill@earthlink.net wrote:

[snip]

> That hardly comes as a suprise given that Phillips is merely a
> hypocritical blustering windbag of a putz!

Aw, isn't that sweet? Markie-pooh is trying to make friends again.

> To recap: Clearly, Bischoff was refering to L.Keller 1 of Krema 
> II as a homicidal gassing cellar and not a gassing cellar for 
> fumigation. None of Phillips's desperate blowing smoke from 
> his butt to avoid dealing with this fact changes it one iota.

Right. Just like all your shouting, foot-stomping, chest-beating and frothing
at the mouth doesn't change the fact there is no unsubjective evidence that
adds up to 11 million deaths. Sorry about that, old bean.

[silly .sig "vaporized" with 'giant death ray']

Do not forget:

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:34 EDT 1997
Article: 144188 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 66 Questions JEWS Don't Want People to Think About
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3440F56C.4785@somewhere.com>  <34475dfe.306149423@news.mindspring.com>  <62grmm$7q5$2@morgoth.sfu.ca>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddb8$1d71a7c0$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 00:31:45 GMT
Lines: 41
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news.fred.net!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144188

Yehuda Igor Yeroslavski  wrote in article
<62grmm$7q5$2@morgoth.sfu.ca>...

[snip]

[In reply to 'William Wallace']
> Fucking Nazi pigs do not have brains for civilized response, maybe 
> he can use arms, but against children and pregnant women only. 

Um, no. That would be the so-called 'Defense' forces of the Israeli terrorist
state and some of the rabid fanatics who populate it. For evidence, please
visit the following page to see examples of these brave, courageous fighters'
handiwork (but bring a barf bag):

http://www.geocities.com/~intifada_2000/tour/AmarEmeera.htm

You are advised to take one of the 'tours' offered at the site. You can start
this tour at:

http://www.geocities.com/~intifada_2000/tour/tour-01a.htm

by clicking the "A graphic tour of broken bodies" link therein.

> I wish him good training in one of the military camps they are 
> running. Maybe they will teach new recruites how to properly 
> commit suicide when fallen in the hands of jews, and show on 
> him as an example.
> I=P

I suppose even an act as lowly and sinful as suicide may well be a viable
solution considering the alternatives:

http://www.geocities.com/~intifada_2000/tour/SalemSafi.htm

Don't talk to anyone about "Nazi pigs" you bastard Zionist scum. After all,
there seems to be little difference between the Nazi's "Master Race" ideology
and the Zionists' "Chosen People" crap.

Are you really proud of what you animals are doing? Is the prize really worth
the price?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:35 EDT 1997
Article: 144192 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Still more misuses of the Holocaust. (Curtis! Pay attention!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddbf$e057be30$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 21 Oct 97 01:27:20 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144192

The American Jewish Committee (AJC) appears to have convinced American
senators into pressuring the German government into paying "pensions" to
'Holocaust survivors' (how many can there possibly be?).

The following Web page contains a scan of a recent full-page ad appearing in
the New York Times:

http://www.ddc.net/ygg/new/senate.gif

It may be difficult to make out, but the text clearly indicates that these
"pensions" are to be paid to "Jewish" survivors only. I wonder how the
Gypsies, for example, are going to round up the political clout necessary to
get their own "pension" monies...?

But the important question here is why, exactly, are American senators being
asked to pressure the German government? Shouldn't Israel be doing this? Or
better yet, the respective governments of the "Eastern European Jews"
mentioned in the ad?

Seems to me more of the old guilt-bucks ploy the Holocaust has been
mendaciously used for for years.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:36 EDT 1997
Article: 144199 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Still more misuses of the Holocaust. (Curtis! Pay attention!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcddbf$e057be30$6e55eccd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddc9$697dfa40$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 21 Oct 97 02:35:38 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144199

Mark (aka Titania the Savage Fairy, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine
 shrilly brayed in article
...
> In article <01bcddbf$e057be30$6e55eccd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > The American Jewish Committee (AJC) appears to have 
> > convinced American senators into pressuring the German 
> > government into paying "pensions" to 'Holocaust survivors'
> > (how many can there possibly be?).
> > 
> > The following Web page contains a scan of a recent full-page 
> > ad appearing in the New York Times:
> > 
> > http://www.ddc.net/ygg/new/senate.gif
> > 
> > It may be difficult to make out, but the text clearly indicates 
> > that these "pensions" are to be paid to "Jewish" survivors only.... 
> 
> Kinda blows holes in the denier claim that Germany paid 
> reperations for those Jews _killed_ in the Holocaust! 

A non sequitur.

> Oops.

Indeed. But don't worry, though. We've all seen you make far more ridiculous
blunders (much to our amusement, of course).

> [snip]

But I wonder why Titania the Savage Fairy here declined to answer the
questions I posed...? Well, not really. Here they are again:

< begin restoration of text cravenly snipped by Markie-pooh >

I wonder how the Gypsies, for example, are going to round up the political
clout necessary to get their own "pension" monies...?

But the important question here is why, exactly, are American senators being
asked to pressure the German government? Shouldn't Israel be doing this? Or
better yet, the respective governments of the "Eastern European Jews"
mentioned in the ad?

Seems to me more of the old guilt-bucks ploy the Holocaust has been
mendaciously used for for years.

< end restoration of text cravenly snipped by Markie-pooh >

[.sig and VanSlander (tm) set adrift in the endless ocean of air between
Markie-pooh's ears]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this yapping hyena, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:37 EDT 1997
Article: 144201 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: The mendacious mis-uses of the Holocaust (was: Yet another round of Gobbledi-talk (tm))
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk> <01bcdb3f$f845d540$dc718bcf@odin> <344bc479.10700401@news.jump.net> <01bcdbdf$83599f50$a2b113cc@odin>  <344AEA32.3289C049@aol.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddcc$41758920$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 21 Oct 97 02:55:59 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144201

[Daniel Keren's message never made it through, so I'm replying from this post]

Bill Toady  wrote in article <344AEA32.3289C049@aol.com>...
> Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > # Mike Curtis  wrote:
> > ## "Anthony Sabatini" wrote:
> >
> > ### Israel claims it needs to protect themselves from evil
> > ### Arabs and other enemies. After all, we all know what
> > ### happened the last time: the Holocaust.
> >
> > ##  I think Danny Keren covered this pretty well.
> >
> > # Where? When? Give me a message-id or something.
> >
> > My reply consisted of the following:
> >
> > 1) Israel did not have to evoke the Holocaust in order to
> > convince anyone what the intentions of its neighbors were;
> > they said it themselves, very clearly. For instance:
> >
> >   TIME, June 2 1967, p. 20: Damascus radio called on all Arabs
> >  to "undertake the liberation battle that will tear the hearts
> >  from the bodies of the hateful Jews and trample them in the dust".

What prompted these Arabs to say that?

> >   TIME, June 2 1967, p. 20: "At week's end Nasser [then Egyptian
> >  Pres.] once more went to the radio to say that "any war with
> >  Israel will be total, and the objective will be to destroy Israel".

Why would the Arabs say such a hateful thing?

> >   Churchill and Churchill, p. 52, quoting Shukairy (then PLO
> >  Chief): "the surviving Jews would be helped to return to their
> >  native countries, but my estimation is that none will survive".

Why not? Why would Shukairy make such a claim?

> > 2) The very basic flaw with the claim "the US helped Israel
> > because of the Holocaust", is that the US hardly helped Israel
> > during the most difficult years of its existence - the period
> > of the 1948 war, when Israel was in serious danger of being
> > conquered by the invading Arab armies. The US maintained a
> > strict embargo on selling arms to the Middle East; Israel
> > got all its weapons from other sources. As a matter of fact,
> > until the late 1960's, nearly all of Israel's weapons were
> > of French and British make.

That's fine, but this issue is not only one of the U.S. helping Israel. You
are right that the States didn't help them out at that time, but you clearly
indicate that other countries did. At that time, England was still arguably
_the_ 'super-power'. Now that England's might has waned and the U.S.'s waxed,
the latter seem to have taken up the cause. Why?

> > The US began supplying Israel with weapons during that period,
> > and, without doubt, the main motivation was to build Israel
> > as a stronghold against the USSR, which was massively arming
> > and training Egypt and Syria. The old "domino principle".

Oh, come on! The point here is that the Holocaust was used as an example of
what happened to Jews when they did not have a country to call their own they
could retreat to in times of danger. Now whether this danger came from the
Nazis or the USSR is largely irrelevant.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:38 EDT 1997
Article: 144227 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Of Trolls and Flames (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <34395921.78363@news.demon.co.uk> <343ade38$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3448a68d.2663945@news.demon.co.uk>  <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk> <344181f0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3443e648.85380@news.demon.co.uk> <3446b797$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bcdb0d$4715f390$6ab113cc@odin> <3448166a$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <62d4k1$tok$1@orthanc.reference.com> <344a7971$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdd60$54ee3ef0$6e7acdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.122.110
Date: 20 Oct 97 14:03:01 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144227

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<344a7971$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <62d4k1$tok$1@orthanc.reference.com>, on 10/19/97 
>    at 02:14 PM, joelr@winternet.com said:
> > On Fri, 17 Oct 97 21:52:41, Gord McFee  wrote:
> 
> > > > Actually, it seemed to me as if the incorrigible Joel 
> > > > Rosenberg was telling Giwer to drown himself (but 
> > > > giving him directions to walk into a river until his 
> > > > "hat floated"). Seems pretty provocative to me...
> > > 
> > > Really?  Did Joel know that Matt can't swim? 
> 
> > Well, there's reason to think he can't bathe; it's hardly 
> > a large step to suggest that Matt "Jabba" Giwer can't 
> > swim, either.
> 
> And of course, if you order him to, he will march into the 
> river, and stay there until the year 2000.  };->
> 
> > > Did Joel think Matt was stupid enough to actually do 
> > > it (mind you, that one *is* possible)?  
> 
> > While I think Giwer is one of the better poster boys for 
> > the right of someone over 21 to commit suicide -- I mean, 
> > he is a miserable little man, after all -- I really doubt that 
> > he's going to decide to do it merely because I suggest that 
> > he take a swim, and I don't think even the clueless 
> > "Anthony Sabatini" is enough of a nimrod to really
> > believe that.
>
> No, Anthony knows very well.  He just saw a chance to start 
> a flamewar with someone.

This must be Gord's new 'thing'. Everything and anything is a an incitement to
"flame". But tell me, Gord, if I told you to take a flying leap off a tall
building, can we safely assume you won't take it as an insult?

> > He's just flaming away.
> 
> Per usual.

So let me get this straight. Rosenberg admits to prodding Giwer, just as I've
said, and Gord still thinks *I* was trolling. How strange.

> > > Or was he simply making a fool of him?
> 
> > Well, yes, I was; I pushed a button of Giwer, and he 
> > pissed all over himself, again.

Rosenberg clearly indicates he trolled Giwer. What does Gord answer?

> And again and again.  "Revisionism's" poster boy.

Ah.

> > He's quite a silly, albeit pitiful, old man.  Check out his picture 
> > at the Hatewatch site, and look at that ravaged face.  

I suppose this is _not_ a flame by Rosenberg, right?

> No thanks.  I've seen it before.

[.sig dismantled and sent to Timbuktu]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:39 EDT 1997
Article: 144234 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: The word NIGGER
Newsgroups: alt.nswpp,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
References:  <01bcd7f1$2943f160$440bcdcd@odin> <62g870$p0t@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>  <62hah1$pl3@nr1.calgary.istar.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcde2c$9ad18180$78a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.120
Date: 21 Oct 97 14:25:18 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.nswpp:8231 alt.politics.white-power:99694 alt.revisionism:144234

Thomas M. Cantine  wrote in article
<62hah1$pl3@nr1.calgary.istar.net>...
> In article ,
> atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote:
> 
> > In article <62g870$p0t@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>,
> > gtaylor@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor) wrote:
> > 
> >   :"Do you think he knows" she says, "that the term 'wop' is quite likely
> >   :*itself* a mispronunciation or borrowed spelling from the dialects of
> >   :southern Italy of the word for 'dandy' (my southern Italian orthography
> >   :isn't what it should be. I heard 'wuappo', but I could have misrecorded
> >   :the word - she's the Romance linguist, not me)?"
> > 
> > "Guappo," I believe.

What the Hell is "Guappo"?

>    I thought it was from the abbreviation "WithOut Papers", referring to
> large numbers of Italian immigrants who for various reasons didn't have any
> of their documents at the end of WWII. There was the suspicion that some of
> them had deliberately destroyed their papers to conceal their involvement
> with Mussolini's government.

Exactly right. I don't know what Taylor's babbling about (haven't seen his
post), but "wop" is definitely not based on a "mispronounced Italian word".

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:40 EDT 1997
Article: 144237 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Battle-mad Van Alstines rages again (was: Theological Declaration of Barmen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <343BD68E.446B@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> <01bcdc10$78aef290$53a1cdcd@odin>  <3449E967.1809@concentric.net>  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdd6c$3fe0e100$6e7acdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.122.110
Date: 20 Oct 97 15:28:26 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144237

Mark (aka Titania, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine  brayed in
article ...
> In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> wrote:
> 
> > Michael Ives  writes:

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^

> > 
> > # Anthony, mightn't it also be accurate to say that Christ
> > # not only _transcended_ Judaism, he _renounced_ it?
> > 
> > No, it is totally inaccurate to say this; and it proves that
> > your knowledge in this field, too, is zero.
> > 
> > Jesus renounced and criticized the Jewish religious
> > establishment, not Judaism.
> > 
> > There are many ultra-orthodox Jews who severely criticize
> > the Jewish religious establishment, but not Judaism.
> > 
> > # I am unaware of any Christian proscription against saying
> > # the words "beast" and "crazed animal"!
> > 
> > As I said, your knowledge is zero.
> > 
> > # On the other hand, perhaps Mr Keren will elaborate on the
> > # theological underpinnings of his cohort Van Alstine's
> > # language such as this from Friday:
> > #
> > # "Mr. Ives is an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who
> > # loves bending over and taking it in the ass from his
> > # Nazi buddies." "
> 
> Tsk tsk. Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini, being the low-life he
> is, intentionally misquotes me again. No suprise there, given his virulent
> hatreds and complete lack of integrity. 

The battle-mad Van Alstine froths at the mouth and again proves that he
totally loses sight of everything else when in one of his berserk-like rages.
In fact, he has once again (!!!) been 'hoisted by his own petard' in that I
never accused him of what he is babbling about (above). He is apparently
responding -- in his inimitable, spittle-flinging way -- to something Mr. Ives
wrote. But, of course, because of his "virulent hatreds and complete lack of
integrity", he will never apologize for this unprovoked attack.

> (Does this mean he would try to beat me with a pickaxe too?)

I would not waste the otherwise useful wood on one as lowly as you. But more
and more I am beginning to believe you should be caged and sent to obedience
school.

[Van Alstine's cheesy excuse snipped]

> In Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's case, however, 
> given that he _is_ an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who loves 
> bending over and taking it in the ass from his Nazi buddies" one 
> is hard pressed to tell where commentary on behavior ends and 
> personal slurs begins! LOL!

Enraged beast that he is, Van Alstine makes another unprovoked attack. But
then again, it was also this same savage animal who recently charged blindly
(as is his wont) and viciously attacked *one of his own fellow travelers* like
the rabid cur he is.

[snip, including silly .sig, snipped]

Lest any forget:

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:41 EDT 1997
Article: 144282 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net> <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin> <34510e91.679318@news.jump.net> <01bce0a0$900c5dd0$27718bcf@odin> <3453ed29.688300080@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 25 Oct 97 17:22:26 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144282

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3453ed29.688300080@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><34510e91.679318@news.jump.net>...
> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> 
> >> >> >Those are floor plans, you moron! You have been asked to 
> >> >> >produce plans for a *gas chamber*, along with an operations 
> >> >> >manual or something of that nature. What a lying piece of...
> >> >> >well, you know.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Yup, here's the reply. Nothing will be good enough for these 
> >> >> guys, Mark. It won't matter if you explain it to them like a 
> >> >> child, it'll still be not good enough.
> >> >
> >> >LOL! What a transparent evasion! Curtis, you must really think 
> >> >people are stupid; otherwise,
> >> 
> >> I think you haven't a clue about convergence and the reading of 
> >> these documents. 
> >
> >IOW, you haven't got any engineering plans for a gas chamber, 
> >nor can you produce an operations manual at the very least. 
> >Why not just say that in the first place, Curtis? Who are you 
> >trying to fool?
> 
> Mark, what these clowns now want is a manual that say: "How 
> To Murder Human Beings in the New Gas Chamber." Anthony is 
> looking for that. 

No, moron, I'm looking for at least an operations manual that explain how to
maintain these gas chambers. Of course, it would be nicer if you could produce
engineering diagrams of these chambers...

> He doesn't seem to understand that the murders were still 
> secret and what words got put on paper bout gassing and gas 
> detectors were mistakes. 

Of course they were! *snort* Otherwise this whole silly business would be
over. You'd be able to show real gas chambers, operations manuals, etc. How
bloody convenient for you that the Nazis planned for the day they would lose
the War.

> This is again the typical DENIER tactic. When presented with 
> evidence it isn't ever good enough. 

When you present evidence that *isn't* clear and leaves readers with doubts,
what do you expect? If you think that's a "DENIER tactic", you apparently know
less of historical and scientific methods than you led us to believe.

> There is obviously no attempt to understand the material as 
> a whole. 

Because you folks have yet been able to present a single bit of evidence that
leaves no doubts. You can't come up with an authentic gas chamber from a Nazi
camp (at best you're left with 'reconstructions'), you can't provide an
operations manual for one of these contraptions, the 11 million figure comes
>from  'population analysis' (as opposed to Nazi death records), etc., etc.

> You will also note that there are no questions asked about 
> the material Mark Van Alstine presented to this denier. 

This is a lie, Curtis. Most of Van Alstine's stuff never made it here before I
posted this message.

> What this denier does is simply dismiss outbof hand. Hint:
> Nothing will be good enough. 

You haven't presented any clear-cut evidence yet! All your crap is bit and
pieces (almost always only supported by 'eyewitnesses'). You dolts can't just
post a clear bit of proof, can you? All you put out is theories, maybes and
what-ifs. Basically, you come up with a theory and look for bits and pieces
that will support it. It should be the other way around, Curtis. You should
look at the evidence and _then_ build a theory based on it.

> So all of you, I read that there are not any lurkers out there, 
> ask questions about this material. 

What's this supposed to mean? Are you asking lurkers to post questions or
something else? Clarify.

> The deniers will not.

Those wascally "deniers" which appear to haunt your dreams *are* "asking
questions", Curtis. You just don't *like* the queries. You can't stand that
anyone would _dare_ question your theories. You're biased, Curtis, and it
shows. Big time.

> >Had you been honest in the first place and admitted you 
> >have no such plans,
> 
> What did Mark just place in the group for you?

At the time of this message, he posted floor layouts of a building, *not*
engineering plans for a gas chamber. You know that, Curtis. Why are you lying?

> >but instead had a whole bunch of other evidence, many folks 
> >would feel less included to not trust you. But you don't 
> >understand that, Curtis. And I fear you never will.
> 
> Sure, denier, Sabatini, sure.

You don't have to believe _me_, Curtis. But sooner or later, reality _will_
re-assert itself and it will finally dawn on you that you and your pals aren't
as angelic as you'd like to believe.

> >> We will never have the plans even if they said what you want. 
> >
> >That's a blatant lie, Curtis.
> 
> See your words above after Mark presented his information. I'm 
> not lying. I knew this was going to be your denier approach. 

You're lying, Curtis. I asked for engineering plans of a gas chamber and all I
got at the time was a building layout.

> >> The denier game will be to cry forgery. 
> >
> >No, I'll accept the diagrams. What have I ever claimed 
> >was a "forgery"?
> 
> You did not accept them. You said they were not what you 
> wanted.

What Van Alstine posted at the time *wasn't* what I asked for. You know that,
Curtis. You're just playing Gobbledi-talk (tm) and lying through your yellow
teeth.

And you didn't answer my question, Curtis: "What have I ever claimed was a
'forgery'?"

> You, Anthony Sabatini, the denier wrote:
> >IOW, you haven't got any engineering plans for a gas 
> >chamber, nor can you produce an operations manual 
> >at the very least. Why not just say that in the first 
> >place, Curtis? Who are you trying to fool?

That's right, Curtis. You fools were playing specious games again. I asked for
one thing and you present another. Then you stomp your little feet and claim
you posted what was asked of you. That's why people don't trust you guys too
much. I explained this to you below, but maybe you're not smart enough to
figure it out. Let me know what part(s) you're having trouble with.

> >> You do play the denier game well, Sabatini. 
> >
> >I have no idea what "game" that is, Curtis. Explain 
> >it in detail.
> 
> I see it being played out above, denier Sabatini.

And yet you *still* fail to explain it in detail. How utterly unsurprising! I
explain the games you and fellow travelers play, Curtis. You, OTOH, do nothing
but whine and pout. You leave us with a mystical "denier game" and a look of
smug satisfaction as if you've proven or shown something. Free hint: you
haven't.

> >> I'm glad you have resigned to show everyone exactly 
> >> what you really are.
> >
> >Yes, someone who, after reading months of your bullshit and 
> >semi-honesty, will ot take you at face value. And you people 
> >prove to readers time and time gain that you are not to be 
> >trusted. Look at what you kooks have been doing bout these 
> >plans. You didn't honestly admit from the onset that you didn't
> >have 'em or an operations and/or maintenance manual of 
> >some kind. Instead, you
> 
> What did Mark post for you to _study_ and try to understand. 

He certainly didn't post the engineering plans and/or operations manual I
asked for. You jerks knew you didn't have 'em, but instead of being honest and
just saying so, perhaps telling us you had some _other_ bits of evidence, you
lied and continue to claim you posted what I asked for. This is a blatant,
spit-in-your-eye lie, Curtis, and you kooks know it. You gotta know that by
now.

> No sooner had he posted them did you then dismiss them. 
> You didn't even wiat a day. It was immediate and without 
> consideration. 

That's another lie, Curtis. First Van Alstine posted floor layouts and I told
him that wasn't what I asked for. Only later did he post his other stuff, and
I _have_ been waiting for all of it to appear. Once each piece does, I examine
it and write some more questions. You'd notice this too if you weren't so busy
lying and attacking me.

> >played your Nizkook game of Gobbledi-talk (tm) wherein 
> >you tried to obfuscate the issue. You even blatantly lied 
> >about what had been posted; I asked for engineering plans 
> >of a gas chamber and you dolts posted floor layouts. In
> 
> Yup, it had to say "Engineering Plans For the New Homicidal Gas
> Chamber", Mark! 

Nope. It could be titled whatever you want as long as it clearly shows the
plans for building a gas chamber. Cracking jokes about it like you just did
doesn't magically make these plans appear, Curtis.

> This is typical of deniers who don't know the history
> of the decisions made by the Nazis and how they 
> went about having these things done. But Sabatinio 
> doesn't even care to consider that. 

I made a very specific request for a very specific reason. But you guys lied
about it. You said you had engineering plans for a gas chamber, but you don't.
Instead, you have some other bits and pieces. That doesn't change the fact
that you simply *do not* have engineering plans. But you weren't honest about
it. You lied. I don't mind looking at these other bits and pieces, but I don't
like the fact that you lied about what you have and _continue to lie_ about
it. But then again, it just goes to show how dishonest you kooks are.

> I think he really read the material Mark placed in this 
> group for him. 

Yes, I did. What's your point?

> I hope that Mr. Mock realizes the same would have 
> occurred with his efforts.

IOW, you're just trying to make excuses by playing the poor, injured party
that no one listens to. This way you can tell people how much 'evidence' you
guys posts but no one wants to see it. This will absolve you from posting any
further evidence. But it won't work, Curtis. People are tired of your Nizkook
games.

> >short, you people aren't very honest and up front 
> >(regardless of what you claim about others).
> 
> And I'd be absolutely correct about you, wouldn't I?

Nope. You wouldn't be 'right' if someone cut off your left arm and leg. You
kooks are just a bunch of dishonest character assassins. That's your game, but
people are tired of it.

> [snip]

[.sig punched in the gut]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:42 EDT 1997
Article: 144283 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net> <19971022181200.OAA02211@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net> <01bcdf2c$8c03ddf0$ae56eccd@odin> <3450d5bc.794670@news.demon.co.uk> <3452ec38.688059346@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce16a$ccc00310$c9b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.201
Date: 25 Oct 97 17:28:11 GMT
Lines: 38
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!Supernews60!supernews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!204.19.177.201
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144283

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3452ec38.688059346@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> 
> >"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >
> >>Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >>> Sorry. As for the rest of your friends who want to pretend they 
> >>> are something they are not; I've decided not to help them along 
> >>> in their delusions. They can delude themselves on their own 
> >>> without my help.
> >>
> >>Does this mean you'll be leaving alt.revisionism sometime soon?
> >
> >Didn't you know Anthony, his main aim in being here is to sneer? So,
> >as long as there is anyone here who is not on his list of friends,
> >there is no reason for him ever to leave. Unless, finally, - with an
> >attack of self-awareness - he realises how silly he looks, and how
> >worthless the postings he makes to those whom he criticizes -
> >whereupon embarrassment may make him go away.
> 
> Actually, I don't consider you an enemy. So I guess you are on my list
> of friends. 

Curtis is trying to suck up to Fergus after all the abuse he piled on him.
What a goddamn hypocrite!

> I don't consider Anthony an enemy either. He's on my list
> of juvenile brats.

Keep it up, Curtis! I enjoy it greatly when you clods are shown up to be what
you truly are! I am pleased.  :-)

[.sig destroyed]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:43 EDT 1997
Article: 144284 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: If Holocausters Were Consistent
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3450F442.467C@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com>  <3451B03A.7121@concentric.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce16b$6de70c20$c9b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.201
Date: 25 Oct 97 17:32:42 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!204.19.177.201
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144284

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<3451B03A.7121@concentric.net>...
> If Holocausters Were Consistent
> 
> Greetings! We have finally reached the point in our history when no
> decent citizen dares to question the facts about Extra-terrestrial
> Visitors!  The only people who do are obviously crackpots, malcontents,
> and poor competitors in the global economy who probably lost their jobs
> to immigrants.  You want immigrants?  How about Immigrants From Outer
> Space?
> 
> News flash! The JDL and the ADL issued statements today threatening the
> lives of anyone who dares to question the accuracy of reports of
> extra-terrestrial visitors.
> 
> Abraham Foxman declared "We have limitless evidence and countless
> eye-witness testimonies about visitors from outer space, yet
> anti-extraterrestrial deniers continue to abuse their freedom of
> speech!  We have now developed software to prevent good, decent people
> from seeing their websites.  We're working on that First Amendment
> thing."
> 
> "How can you explain away that giant crater in Arizona? What was that
> supposed to have been, a meteorite?" he snapped.  "What about the
> pyramids in Egypt?  Are you going to tell me _Arabs_ could build those? 
> Hah!"
> 
> The Website called Nizkor(tm) has formed an extensive archive testifying
> to the historical accuracy of visits from outer space, including endless
> personal testimonies ("I was abducted by aliens"), photographs of flying
> saucers, and segments from various Hollywood movies.  
> 
> The United States Extra-terrestrial Memorial Museum has opened in
> Washington, with the help of millions of dollars from the government and
> interested businessmen, with the express purpose of silencing anyone who
> dares to question the accuracy of reports of extra-terrestrial visitors,
> and indoctrinating ("educating") children of all ages so that they
> "never again" criticize anyone who looks other-worldly.
> 
> Harvard University reports that the Study of Extra-terrestrial Visitors
> has become its third-most-popular major, leading as it so often does to
> lucrative contracts in the media and Hollywood.
> 
> Steven Spielberg's new _magnum opus_ "Schindler's List of Close
> Encounters" has opened to record business, and looks like a shoo-in for
> the Academy Award.  "It's wonderful that we have people like him to show
> us what really happened," said Ida Clare, a housewife in Chagrin Falls,
> Ohio.  
> 
> Mark Van Alstine and Daniel Keren have posted approximately 355,420
> texts and graphics to Usenet, showing landing struts, gas clouds,
> retro-rockets, and suspiciously small greenish-colored males as proof of
> various encounters.  When objections were raised as to the origins and
> implications of the photos, they shrieked "anti-extraterrestrialism!" 
> Curiously, the epithet sent most of the doubting Thomases running for
> the hills, where they, doubtless, belong.
> 
> The World Extraterrestrial Congress has met and demanded
> $666,000,000,000,000 from any and all nations where people have been
> shown to transact business with anti-extraterrestrialists.  Prominent
> New York investment banks have been forbidden to sponsor any
> anti-extraterrestrial offerings.              
> 
> Arthur Spiegelman reports: 
> 
>             NEW YORK (Reuter) - New York city and state warned
> 	Switzerland Wednesday they could make it tough for Swiss banks
> 	to do business in this major financial center unless Switzerland
> 	set up a fund to compensate extraterrestrials.
>             The head of the New York State Assembly announced hearings
> 	to determine "under what circumstances may a foreign bank's
> 	license or certification be revoked."
>             The president of the New York City Council introduced a bill
> 	to bar city funds from being deposited in Swiss banks until a
> 	compensation fund is set up.
>             And a council spokesman said the body would consider whether
> 	to require the city's pension funds to divest themselves of the
> 	$50 million the city holds in the stock of three Swiss banks,
> 	Credit Suisse Group, Swiss Bank Corp and Union Bank.
> 
> 
> Several nations have passed new laws providing for imprisonment and/or
> execution of anyone who questions anything about extraterrestrial
> activity, or who tries to experiment with rocketry, or who performs
> tests related to propulsion or space travel.  "We don't need anyone
> trying to prove anything," one official said, "We all know what they're
> up to."

LOL! Well done, sir! Bravo!

[snip]


From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:44 EDT 1997
Article: 144286 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin>  <01bcdf4f$166ace00$550bcdcd@odin> <344ff941$14$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce0a3$7dd6a000$27718bcf@odin>  <01bce0e6$b504c5a0$a3a1cdcd@odin> <3451eb51.687828729@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce16b$e5fb6760$c9b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.201
Date: 25 Oct 97 17:36:03 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144286

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3451eb51.687828729@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Speaking of, I'm having trouble "seeing" many of the 
> >pics you posted on account of missing parts. Next time 
> >try to post the entire picture in one message.
> 
> Print them out and put them together. They are 
> sometime big pictures.

Thanks, but that's not what I meant. Some segments of the pics haven't reached
my newserver yet.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:45 EDT 1997
Article: 144287 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Spitz on Sabatini-Phelps
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.revisionism
References: <199710241713.RAA14762@sample.essenet.it>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce16c$aaff0ad0$c9b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.201
Date: 25 Oct 97 17:41:34 GMT
Lines: 21
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!204.19.177.201
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.homosexuality:114188 alt.revisionism:144287

ehoffer@freeweb.essenet.it wrote in article
<199710241713.RAA14762@sample.essenet.it>...
> Ben Phelps posted this using the University of Kansas's computers:

LOL! Why don't you post the message headers and prove that, O Lying
Misanthrope? What's that, you say? You can't because then you'd be shown up as
a miserable, lying ne'er-do-well?

> >>Gord McFee wrote:
> 
> >> Speaking of abortion, what is your position on it?
> 
> > I'm Catholic. What do you think?
> 
> Catholic. That's a good one, Ben! 

Who is the "Ben", Hoffer? Is he your bogeyman? The you check under your bed
for at night?

[snipped Hoffer's nonsensical rubbish]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:46 EDT 1997
Article: 144336 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk> <3431b79d$12$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <01bcdd6a$1c7060d0$6e7acdcd@odin> <62gv2m$evn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddbd$bb19d100$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 21 Oct 97 01:11:59 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144336

Charles R.L. Power  wrote in article
<62gv2m$evn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> On 20 Oct 97 15:13:09 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> >Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist. After all, he's made it 
> >clear on many occasions that he can't find any worthwhile 
> >discussions in this group (at least not to his lofty standards). 
> >So why does he stay here and make us suffer through his 
> >diatribes?
> 
> Who is forcing you to read this newsgroup? And if you do insist 
> on participating to that extent, who is preventing you from 
> filtering out Mike Curtis's messages? As far as I know, he uses 
> a consistent posting ID, so filtering out his messages should be 
> simplicity itself.

But these are the *very same questions* I asked Curtis a few days ago! See his
answers and perhaps that will help shed some light for you.

[.sig left to rot in a back alley]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:47 EDT 1997
Article: 144337 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips...excuses, alibis, whining etc.
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971016214901.RAA14283@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3446D1FB.213B@earthlink.net> <3448ac5b$4$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34494C62.6320@earthlink.net>  <34520A05.1DBCCE46@aol.com> <34522482.1725@earthlink.net> <34534056.709596959@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce17f$17324d40$53b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.83
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Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<34534056.709596959@news.jump.net>...
> "Richard G. Phillips"  wrote:
>
> >Or possibly you are trying to tell us that an execution 
> >gas chamber is no big deal, really. Anybody with a 
> >hacksaw and welding torch can put one together in 
> >his garage -- yes?
> 
> Why not? Seal the garage. Punch holes on the roof and 
> put a cover over the holes and seals them. Make sure 
> you garage door has a peep hole in it that doesn't leak. 
> Get some HCN pellets that are sitting around not doing 
> much. Convince your friends that you have something 
> for them to see in the garage and excuse yourself. 

Explain again why prisoners had to be "convinced" or tricked into going in
these ad hoc gas chambers. Also explain how effective this was after a few
days when other prisoners saw that their fellows weren't coming back from
these 'showers'.

> Lock them in the garage. Climb up to your roof. Open 
> the hole  and drop the pellets in. Close the hole. Go 
> down and look through the peep hole and watch them 
> die.  Sounds  rather simple if you have a mind to do it.
>
> [snip]
> 
> >And so matters stand. I will comment on Pressac's book 
> >when it is presented to me and not before.
> 
> It wouldn't even be right to acquire it yourself to examine 
> what the other side has now would it? Maybe you really do 
> know but would rather appear to be an ignorant fool?

More of Curtis' name-calling. Now that in itself is not much to complain
about, but what really shows Curtis for the hypocrite he is is when other 'do
unto him' and he starts his whining and moaning.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sat Oct 25 16:17:48 EDT 1997
Article: 144338 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <01bcdd6a$1c7060d0$6e7acdcd@odin> <344bb8f2.281656142@news.jump.net> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdd9f$6f8c1040$fb718bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.113.251
Date: 20 Oct 97 21:35:02 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144338

[The Curtis-Clone's post hasn't made it here yet, but I'll answer what I can
here along with Van Alstine's spew; i.e., two dolts with one bazooka shell]

Mark Van Alstine  brayed in article
...
> In article <344bb8f2.281656142@news.jump.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
> Curtis) wrote:
> 
> > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> > 
> > Don't you love the chicken-shit thread drift Sabatini does? 

What's this supposed to mean? Is Curtis whining about 'bandwidth' or something
again?

> LOL! It _is_ rather amusing watch Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe"
> Sabatini play the manure spreader! 

Yes, there _are_ so many of you kooks to level!

> > ...Is your room as cluttered as you are making 
> > Alt.revisionism?

"Clutter"? Try a different newsreader Curtis.

> No doubt his mommy makes his pick up his room for public 
> health reasons! 

Are we to assume that _your_ "mommy" let's you keep your sty all messy?

> [snip]
> 
> > >> And again you failed to answer a question with any specifics. 
> > >> I can't discuss unless I know what details you have in your 
> > >> mind. But yes, I differ from many of the people who post here. 
> > >> Yes, there are no agendas that everyone accepts here as far 
> > >> as method or how the historical record is interpreted. You 
> > >> might whish that this were true but you are wrong. It is a 
> > >> denier who thinks that there is.
> > >> 
> > >> Honest enough for you?
> > >
> > >Quite.
> > 
> > Good! I wasn't exactly writing with you in mind but what the heck.

It is rather apparent that you many "Nazis" in mind.

> > >When will this pompous, unmitigated ass ever cease his 
> > >endless smearing, his
> > 
> > I just calls them like I sees 'em, Sabatini.

Then you are in obvious need of spectacles, Curtis.

> And all one can see of Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini' is a
> shiney brown nose! 

Truly? But is seems as if *you* are the one with his nose up Curtis' behind,
Markie-pooh. Trying to win brownie points or something?

> > >unholy quest of tracking down and 'exposing' those heathen 
> > >"deniers" that seem to drive him mad?
> > 
> > Drive me mad, eh, Sabatini? Actually, the deniers I see here,
> > including you, are such easy prey. 

"Prey"? LOL! I strongly recommend that you 'pray' rather than seek "prey".
"Prey", indeed... our big, brave Nazi-hunter Curtis. LOL! Maybe the
Curtis-Clone should apply for a job at the OSI or something?

> No doubt because they were mired up to their (brown) noses in their own
> bullshit! 

Again, it looks like *you* are the one with his head up Curtis' ass,
Markie-pooh. Why _is_ that, eh?

> > >Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist.
> > 
> > Remember.  Propaganda is not necessarily false. Look the word up,
> > Sabatini. I know you have one dictionary.

Oh, I know that! Remember one of my earlier posts about propaganda and the
Nizkult hate site? Should I re-post it for you, Curtis? I think I will...

> Yes, but having one and having the intelligence to _use_ it are two
> different things! In Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's case he
> no dount would be hard pressed to do better than a monkey flipping pages! 

Or, in Markie-pooh's case, a monkey scanning documents and posting them on
Usenet! LOL!

> > > After all, he's made it clear on many
> > >occasions that he can't find any worthwhile discussions in this group (at
> > >least not to his lofty standards).
> > 
> > I keep trying to get you to substantiate your claims. It has been a
> > fruitless but necessary task so far.

"Necessary"? For whom? Your handlers?

> Indeed. The parable of leading a horse (a vociferous ass in Anthony "beat
> 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's case) to water comes to mind....

Yes, we know. But we never could make you drink, Markie-pooh...

> > > So why does he stay here and make us suffer
> > >through his diatribes?
> > 
> > I like to see YOU squirm and make silly replies such as this one.

Why was it "silly", Curtis? The truth bothers you or something?

> Yup. Just call Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini "Worm Boy." He
> _does_ wriggle so! Very amusing. 

Not nearly as amusing as when I get you to gyrate your pelvis, my little
puppet. LOL!

> > I like to see you jump and the moan and groan about how mistreated you
> > are. How's that?

Really? But it seems as if _you're_ the one who's moaning and groaning just
because you can't produce any evidence that adds up to 11 million deaths. Why
is that, I wonder...? Well, not really.

> You forget the part about how Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's
> is so woefully "mistreated" that he would like to see "Nizkooks"
> imprisoned and justifies beating people with a pickaxe handle for having
> the audacity to expose denier hypocrisy, lies, and proganda for what it
> is.

Don't you fret, lil' Markie-pooh. For you, I've got a special treat: a cage at
the local obedience center for unruly pets. LOL! You may even meet some your
pals there!

[.sig dumped in vat of acid]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:35 EST 1997
Article: 144351 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: If Holocausters Were Consistent
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3450F442.467C@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com>  <3451B03A.7121@concentric.net> <34520D91.21D8@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce186$61005410$53b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.83
Date: 25 Oct 97 20:45:32 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.theriver.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!204.19.177.83
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144351

David Gehrig  wrote in article
<34520D91.21D8@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com>...
> Michael Ives wrote:
> > 
> > If Holocausters Were Consistent
> > 
> > Greetings! We have finally reached the point in our history 
> > when no decent citizen dares to question the facts about 
> > Extra-terrestrial Visitors!  The only people who do are 
> > obviously crackpots, malcontents, and poor competitors in 
> > the global economy who probably lost their jobs to 
> > immigrants.  You want immigrants?  How about 
> > Immigrants From Outer Space?
> 
> << snip >>

[...]

> So thanks, Michael Ives, for reminding us yet again how 
> little distance there is from satiric, hyperbolic paranoia to 
> the kind that revisionists actually proffer as "truth." 
> Maybe that explains why the world is laughing at you?

http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html

Real friggin' funny.

> And better luck next time, old chum, on picking a topic 
> that doesn't end up shooting you in the foot.

I couldn't have put it better myself.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:37 EST 1997
Article: 144368 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddb2$490542d0$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.110
Date: 20 Oct 97 23:50:02 GMT
Lines: 99
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.85.110
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144368

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net>...
> "Richard G. Phillips"  wrote:
> 
> >I have been puzzled by this back-and-forth we have been 
> >having about procuring the documents I have asked for:
> >
> >Phillips says: "OK, get me the documents."
> >Mock, Curtis or Ferree replies: "No, Phillips. YOU get them."
> 
> You are an adult right? You can acquire a library card?
> 
> >So I ask myself: WHY are these people continually balking 
> >at a little task of research which they themselves insist 
> >would be a trivial one ("Just write to ..."), a task which if 
> >successful would put in their hands documents that would 
> >largely demolish my case? God knows, every one of them 
> >is pretty passionate on the subject of the Holocaust and, 
> >God knows, they would love nothing better than to remove 
> >Phillips from the face of the earth, (rhetorically speaking of 
> >course).  So why do they refuse to undertake the very 
> >modest task of research that would bring that glorious day 
> >to fruition?
> 
> I told you why, because the research on a personal level will be
> instructive for you. It'll be a lesson in library arts. 

Gosh, isn't Curtis such a nice fellow? Instead of answering the question with
some substantive evidence, Curtis decides to help some guy with the library.
Evasion noted, Curtis. LOL!

> Plus it'll teach about how history is written.

What would you know about that, Curtis? Since you are the one pretending to
know all about how "history is written", why don't you post your credentials?
In fact, I insist. I'll be waiting.

> >Might it be that, deep down, they know perfectly well that 
> >the documents I demand CANNOT be obtained.
> 
> Then go to the library and prove us wrong. 

LOL! Curtis exposes _himself_ as a "denier"!

> It's really quite simple.

If it's that simple, then when can we assume you'll get back to us with the
results? You do have a library card, do you not? Or do you need help with
that? LOL!

> Are you so upset that you appear lazy and silly that you had 
> to start this thread to buck yourself up?

Uh-oh! Now you went and did it, Mr. Phillips! You've upset Curtis with your
inconsiderate creation of a new thread. As anyone who has bothered to read
Curtis' whini...er, I mean posts, you _must_ know that Curtis loathes what he
calls "thread drift". Shame on you, Mr. Phillips!

LOL!

> >  If this is the case then, wouldn't it be much better for 
> >them if, instead of THEY having to confess that the
> >records cannot be obtained, they put the ball in my 
> >court. Then when I report back that they cannot be 
> >obtained, they will have outs by the dozen.
> 
> Well, we have been to the library and have done the work. 

Prove it. Show us the plans.

> How about you?
> 
> >"Are you sure you wrote to the write institution."
> >"Are you sure you addressed the envelope correctly."
> >"Are you sure you asked for the right document."
> >"Did you really expect to "score" the first time. In matters of this
> >sort, one has to be persistent."
> 
> Actually, we expect you to do nothing. Then after about 6 mos. we'll
> post the material. 

Is this an admission that you *do not*, in fact, have these plans? Why, I'm
shocked! Shocked, I say!

>  Meanwhile you appear lazy. We are in no hurry. 

Who is this "we" you are referring to? Last week you were blathering about
have no clue about this mysterious "we". Have you now discovered who (or what)
they are? Will you share with us your new-found knowledge?

> >So you see, gentlemen, Phillips is on to your little racket, 
> >and all your exhortations, manipulations, and insults won't 
> >do you a damn bit of good.
> 
> Phillips is just a lazy dolt. what more is to be said?

How about this:  You haven't shown how *you* are not a "lazy dolt", too,
Curtis. Prove it to us. Show us the plans.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:39 EST 1997
Article: 144377 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk> <3431b79d$12$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <01bcdd6a$1c7060d0$6e7acdcd@odin> <62gv2m$evn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <01bcddbd$bb19d100$6e55eccd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcddc7$ebde0e00$6e55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 21 Oct 97 02:24:59 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144377

Mark (aka Titania the Savage Fairy, aka Markie-pooh) Van Alstine
 brayed in article
...
> In article <01bcddbd$bb19d100$6e55eccd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Charles R.L. Power  wrote in article
> > <62gv2m$evn@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> > > On 20 Oct 97 15:13:09 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini"
> > >  wrote:
> > > 
> > > >Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist. After all, he's made it 
> > > >clear on many occasions that he can't find any worthwhile 
> > > >discussions in this group (at least not to his lofty standards). 
> > > >So why does he stay here and make us suffer through his 
> > > >diatribes?
> > > 
> > > Who is forcing you to read this newsgroup? And if you do insist 
> > > on participating to that extent, who is preventing you from 
> > > filtering out Mike Curtis's messages? As far as I know, he uses 
> > > a consistent posting ID, so filtering out his messages should be 
> > > simplicity itself.
> > 
> > But these are the *very same questions* I asked Curtis a few days 
> > ago! See his answers and perhaps that will help shed some light for 
> > you.
> 
> Well, they certainly went right over Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe"
> Sabatini's head! But that is to be expected. Yapping little denier lapdogs
> are pretty low to the ground....

The better to laugh at and kick around burly hyenas such as Titania the Savage
Fairy here!

[silly .sig and ridiculous VanSlander (tm) fined, jailed and beaten]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:40 EST 1997
Article: 144462 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Curtis still on a Nazi-hunt (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3436d494.3240942@news.demon.co.uk> <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net> <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk> <34394adb.429720@news.jump.net> <343cb306.2887978@news.demon.co.uk> <34438e23.148343797@news.jump.net> <3446a4d1.2219970@news.demon.co.uk> <344287f3.5408904@news.jump.net> <344849e5.1311571@news.demon.co.uk> <34461ea8.578622191@news.jump.net> <344e8407.1122104@news.demon.co.uk> <344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net> <01bcdd6a$1c7060d0$6e7acdcd@odin> <34552a43.2592695@news.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcde75$c128aea0$9c55eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.156
Date: 21 Oct 97 23:08:57 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144462

Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<34552a43.2592695@news.demon.co.uk>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><344d5dbc.258302824@news.jump.net>...
> >> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >
> >[...]
>
> Lots of silly self-important meaningless Curtis talk snipped.

You got _that_ straight!
 
> >> Honest enough for you?
> >
> >Quite.
> >
> >When will this pompous, unmitigated ass ever cease his endless 
> >smearing, his unholy quest of tracking down and 'exposing' those 
> >heathen "deniers" that seem to drive him mad?
> >
> >Maybe Curtis is just a propagandist. After all, he's made it clear 
> >on many occasions that he can't find any worthwhile discussions 
> >in this group (at least not to his lofty standards). So why does he 
> >stay here and make us suffer through his diatribes?
> 
> To improve us all by his mere presence - didn't you know? He waves 
> his words over us and goes to bed happy. We, basking in the effulgent 
> glow of his wonderfulness are supposed to be changed - in the 
> twinkling of an eye we shall all be changed!
>
> Either that or he's just a fool.

LOL! I don't really have to tell you which now, do I?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:42 EST 1997
Article: 144488 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk> <3446c050$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce1ad$99b5edc0$55a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.85
Date: 26 Oct 97 01:26:18 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!oronet!uniserve!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.161.85
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144488

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
> 
> # Danny Keren has a habit of taking parts of postings
> # by people out of context and repeating them continually
> # in a deliberate smear attempt.
> 
> No. I never did this with Giwer's articles, nor with
> Sabatini's.

Liar. You do it so often no one can assume you do it without malicious intent.

> # For me, I don't care what Matt Giwer has said about one of
> # your friends - though I do care very much about what he
> # said about my Monarch and the late Princess. I did not
> # take these matters up in public with him as it was best
> # to ignore them to reduce the amount of repetition. I
> # wouldn't really care that Danny Keren does a smear job
> # on Anthony Sabatini with his partial quote,
> 
> No smear job, as you know well. Sabatini's words were
> very clear and everyone is invited to check his original
> articles in dejanews (note that I always post the message-id).

That doesn't matter and you know it, Keren. Most people wont bothering
checking it out.

You this is a deliberate slander on your part, Keren. You do it on purpose
even though I've explained myself countless time. You ignore what I said, but
I don't see you doing the same kinds of things with your pals such as Van
Alstine, for example, where he apparently wished someone had a stroke. You're
being a hypocrite, Keren.

> # or that he does the same thing for Matt Giwer
> 
> Never.

It is to laugh. You'd do almost anything in your power to show Giwer worse
than he is just because he riles you up like there's no tomorrow. Be a man and
admit it, Keren.

> # except that he has done it to me a few times, when he
> # was at least as inaccurate - and that annoyed me.
> 
> You posted something, and later claimed it was a joke.
> Under any circumstances, I cannot be accused of "misquoting"
> you.

Yes, you can. It's called quoting out of context. You know that, Keren, and
that's why you're a dishonest person.

> Again, I post the message-id; anyone can look up
> your original article.

You deliberately try to smear people, Keren. Everyone who's read your messages
for a month or so knows that. You're very dishonest when you do so. But you
know that what goes around comes around. Me, I'm waiting for just that. 

[.sig belted]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:43 EST 1997
Article: 144496 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <01bce090$69841eb0$27718bcf@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce1af$6a7f1110$55a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.85
Date: 26 Oct 97 01:39:16 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144496

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> # His point was directed at Daniel Keren, for starters, and
> # was simply to explain to him how people can get angry when
> # he defends obvious frauds and liars such as Moshe Peer.
> 
> It is not obvious that he was a liar; he was 11-years-old
> when the war ended, and he probably did not understand
> what was happening to him. 

Moshe Peer claimed he spent the last *19 YEARS* doing 'research' on his book,
and even then he claimed there was a gas chamber where none was ever found. He
claimed to have survived not one or two, but SIX GASSINGS! He said he thought
that children were perhaps immune to the effects of the gas, but then went on
to claim that his friends (all roughly the same age) died around him in one of
the gas chambers! He goes around promoting his book which is filled with
contradictions and lies as above. And you are claiming he is not a lair?!?

> I am not saying, for instance,
> that those who produced the absurd eyewitness accounts
> about Dresden's bombing, were necessarily liars.

If they took *19 years of research* and still came up with bullshit, why would
you not call them "liars"?

> # Remember, Danny has accused many of "defending the most
> # ridiculous 'denier' claims", yet here he is do the same
> # with the amazing Moshe Peer fairy tale.
> 
> It's hard to understand how you can distort my intent,
> time and time again.

This statement needs no response other than to point Daniel to his constant
"distorting" of the 'Nizkorites in jail' post.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:44 EST 1997
Article: 144497 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <01bce090$69841eb0$27718bcf@odin> <3450d790.617225006@news.jump.net> <346377b0.4368114@news.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce1af$a3cfc400$55a1cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.161.85
Date: 26 Oct 97 01:40:52 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.161.85
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144497

Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<346377b0.4368114@news.demon.co.uk>...
> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> 
> >"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >
> >>Do you understand now?
> >
> >Yes, I understand that you are a denier.
>
> Well I understand that he must have said more than the one line. 
> With your editing and lack of "snip" remarks you make it look as 
> if he is saying that he is a denier and you are merely agreeing 
> with him. Is that a form of defamation?

That's just Curtis' usual dishonest MO. He's a smear artist, nothing more.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:46 EST 1997
Article: 144501 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Sabatini - Hostilities, Civilities and Apologies (Was: Re: Grese on Trial)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
References: <341f3664$11$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <19970917103501.GAA19562@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3420926a$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3420d3a3.93365700@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc442$5ec73350$3856eccd@odin> <342234bc.183772769@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc510$42ef0300$7537eccd@odin> <3422b4ac.3188284@news.jump.net> <01bcc527$0487db20$687acdcd@odin> <342499ab.35048660@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc6a2$497dbcf0$daa1cdcd@odin> <34257dc6.1755354@news.uniserve.com> <34528bc3.5972379@news.hrc-counsel.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Daniel Jonah Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz  wrote in
article <34528bc3.5972379@news.hrc-counsel.net>...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:15:55 GMT, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
> wrote:
> 
> >On 21 Sep 97 15:26:31 GMT, in <01bcc6a2$497dbcf0$daa1cdcd@odin>,
> >"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >>> It is to laugh.
> 
> >>You mean like that photo of you? LOL!
> 
> >I'm told that in addition to burdening this n.g. with an off-topic
> >jpg, 
> 
> >Hilary Ostrov
> 
> I only could wish that Anthony would repost Hilary's photo. 
> What I am about to say is not in anyway to be interpreted 
> as a slam against Hilary. When I saw that picture I achieved 
> a eumongous erection such as I haven't experienced in five 
> years. It actually hurt! I am turned on by the librarian types. 
> Young beach bunnies in thong bikinis give me limp linguini! 
> Please post Hilary one more time Sabatini!

OK. I'm attaching a pic (in JPEG format) of the Ostroll *and* a "young beach
bunny in thong bikini" and let you decide which is which, and which you
prefer. Let us know.

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MU>!9"*
MM>&0)&O)1C VP@_3O>+00
Subject: Re: - LK1 Zyklon intro device.jpg (0/6) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:   <01bce0f1$63a15970$a3a1cdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce1b5$9274ce70$55a1cdcd@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144504

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce0f1$63a15970$a3a1cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
> > ...
> > > 
> > > Document 14
> > > 
> > > Caption: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > SCHEMATIC DIAGRAM OF A ZYKLON-B INTRODUCTION COLUMN
> > 
> > The picture provided for this "document" is not an engineering 
> > "schematic" by any stretch of the imagination. 
> 
> Nope. I never said it was. It's a sketch based on the deposition of 
> Michal Kula at the Ho"ss Trial and who saw them being being built 
> in the DAW metalworking shop at Auschwitz.

Yes, more eyewitness testimony. Can't you kooks *ever* come up with anything
that _doesn't_ rely on (professional?) 'eyewitnesses'?

> A pretty damning sketch too, when one takes into account that four 
> of these "Drahtnetzeinscheibvorrichtung" -i.e. "wire mesh introduction
> devices" were entered on the handover invoice for Krema III! The
> conergence of evidence one more blows Anthony "beat 'em with a 
> pickaxe" Sabatini's dingy out of the water! 

Uh, yeah... Not.

> > It is a picture drawn in pencil with what looks like Scotch-taped 
> > descriptions added to the sheet. Said taped-on description are 
> > in French.
> 
> Does Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's claim, for 
> example, that a Zyklon B introduction column, a simple construct 
> of heavy wire mesh and angle iron, really, could _not_ be built 
> from a sketch? (Or even from a verbal description?)  

No, I do not. But I do, of course, find it utterly unsurprising that this is
about the only kind of, er, 'evidence' you dolts can present.

> Obviously, Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe"
> Sabatini's  must ahve failed his junior high school shop classes! 
>
> Be that is it may, the sketch was made _from_ the description of a
> Drahtnetzeinscheibvorrichtung from Kulu's deposition, by Pressac, who is
> French. That's why, moron, the caption says: "Based on the deposition of
> 11th June 1945 made by Michal KULA, former prisoner 2718 who worked in the
> metal morking shop where these columns were made."

Of course! Eyewitness testimony. I wonder if these morons will *ever* be able
to present evidence that does not rely on such? Well, not really.

> For all we know, there _was_ a "engineering schematic" used by the
> prisoners to build these Drahtnetzeinscheibvorrichtung. 

But, of course, this is nowhere to be found. "For all we know..." LOL! These
guys are just too much!

> However, given Kula's testimony, and the handover invoice 
> for Krema III which shows that they were undeed installed, 
> it really doesn't matter. 

OK.

> > > Based on the deposition of 11th June 1945 made by Michal 
> > > KULA, former prisoner 2718 who worked in the metal 
> > > morking shop where these columns were made.
> > 
> > Ah, another eyewitness testimony.... 
> 
> Yup. Another fascile evasion-by-innuendo from Anthony "beat 
> 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini. 

IOW, you can't stand it that because that appears the only thing you kooks
have. No one is surprised.

> > We wouldn't by any chance happen to have one of these gas 
> > funnels, would we? Perhaps at the USHMM?
> 
> Nope. 

Surprise, surprise!

> They were evidently removed when the Kremas were being 
> dismantled and, to my knowledge, haven't been seen since. 

So none of these funnels were ever found, eh?

> See: 
> 
>
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/dismantling-destructio
n.01

Yes, of course. Those magical Nazis sure did have a way of making everything
disappear...

> > > 
> > > 
> > > Source: Pressac, _Technique_, p.487
> > > 
> > > Commentary:
> > > 
> > > According to Piper:
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > [description snipped -- see source below]
> > 
> > > Photographs taken by Allied aircraft in 1944 indicate that the gas
> > > introduction columns of crematorium II 
> > 
> > I assume these pictures are available at the Nizkult? 
> 
> Where? I'm not familar with Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's
> "Nizkult." 

Perhaps because you've been smashing your head against your keyboard in
frustration too hard?

> (Maybe it's a cult-oriented website where he hangs out with
> other Nazi fairies?)  

LOL! The Savage Fairy doth speak! Watch it, little tinkerbell, or you might
chip a nail! LOL!

> Be that as it may, I do believe some air photos are available 
> on John "run away!" Ball-less's website. I do know that some 
> are in his denier propaganda dud _Air Photo Evidence_.
> 
> > If so, can you please provide an URL?
> 
> Is Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's unable to master searching
> the Web with his browser? Evidently so. Figures. After all, one can't
> expect too much from  a moron with a room-temperature IQ....

That is why little, if anything, is expected of you, Markie-pooh.

[snip, including VanSlander (tm)]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:50 EST 1997
Article: 144601 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin> <19971022185101.OAA05280@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144601

Fafner13  wrote in article
<19971022185101.OAA05280@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
> >From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
> >Date: Wed, Oct 22, 1997 11:32 EDT
> >Message-id: <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin>
> 
> >No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust occurred.
> >> 
> >> No one! How about Joe Bellinger? Andrew Allen? Mark Raven? 
> >> Michael the Nationalist? Matt Giwer? Phillips?
> >
> >I don't believe any of these people have claimed the Holocaust did not
occur
> >at all.
> 
> Indeed.  I can only spak for myself, but I have never denied that the Jewish
>  people suffered during the war.  Nor have I ever written or said that ALL
>  Jewish accounts were fabrications.  I simply zero in on the obvious, in an
>  honest attempt to separate fact from fantasy and fiction.
> 
> >re hasn't been a great deal of solid (and scientific!) evidence 
> >> >that leads to the 11 million figure.
> >> 
> >> This is your point of ignorance. 
> 
> An insult.  How typical.

Indeed. Typical Nizkookery.

> >I see a rather handsome fellow there, Curtis.  ;-)  But when I read you and
> >your pals' posts, I see smear artists spewing half-truths, outright lies
and
> >a never-ending stream of propaganda.
> 
> I'll bet they will deny this.  Does that make them 'deniers?"

Oh, yes! The Nizkooks are the biggest "deniers" of the lot!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:51 EST 1997
Article: 144667 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk> <3446c050$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk>  <01bce1ad$99b5edc0$55a1cdcd@odin> <34530CC7.3B85@concentric.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144667

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<34530CC7.3B85@concentric.net>...
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> > 
> > Daniel Keren  wrote in article
> > ...
> > > redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
> > >
> > > # Danny Keren has a habit of taking parts of postings
> > > # by people out of context and repeating them 
> > > # continually in a deliberate smear attempt.
> > >
> > > No. I never did this with Giwer's articles, nor with
> > > Sabatini's.
> > 
> > Liar. You do it so often no one can assume you do it 
> > without malicious intent.
> 
> No kidding!  Did Keren *really* say that?  

Of course. It is nothing new for him.

> How many times did he post the silly joke about the 
> Nizkorite lunch schedule?  Hundreds, surely! 

At the very least.

> Shows who thinks he's the master of the "Big Lie" 
> technique.  There's no shame there, Anthony, none at all!

Oh, I know, thanks.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:52 EST 1997
Article: 144674 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 66 Questions JEWS Don't Want People to Think About
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3440F56C.4785@somewhere.com>  <34475dfe.306149423@news.mindspring.com>  <62grmm$7q5$2@morgoth.sfu.ca> <01bcddb8$1d71a7c0$6e55eccd@odin> <344d460f$2$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bcde92$ef0a4370$f7938bcf@odin> <344f8615.11175213@news.v-wave.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf46$b6f02ef0$550bcdcd@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144674

John Morris  wrote in article
<344f8615.11175213@news.v-wave.com>...
> In <01bcde92$ef0a4370$f7938bcf@odin>, on 22 Oct 97 02:37:51 GMT,
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >The Holocaust is one thing because it happened over 50 years ago 
> >and nothing can be done for it now. The quasi-'genocide' against 
> >the Palestinians is happening here and now. Why are you not up in 
> >arms about it in the same way you are with the Holocaust?
> 
> 1. What makes you think we aren't?

Haven't seen any indication of it whatsoever. If you are, why not just say so?

> 2. How many lines per week of breast-beating about the Palestinians
>    would you like before we could return to the putative topic of
>    the newsgroup?

182 per week per Nizkook.

> 3. Who actually denies humans rights abuses against the 
> Palestinians?

Who actually accused anyone of "denying" these abuses?

> 4. The government of Indonesia has killed 10% of the population
>    of East Timor. The killings continue here and now. Why are *you*
>    not up in arms about that?

Haven't heard about. The news is usually bursting with Middle East stories so
there is little room left to report other incidents.

> 5. Do you have any idea how irrelevant your objection is?

Is it more or less relevant than this post from you?

> I know this will come as a shock to your sheltered sensibilities,
> Anthony, but there actually are people who deny the Holocaust 
> and who falsify history in order to sustain their denial. I can think 
> of no other historical event which has an organized campaign of 
> denial associated with it.

So let's discuss that. What is the scope of this "campaign"? How "organized"
do you think they are? When you say they "deny the Holocaust", what exactly to
do mean? (Before answering that you'll have to give us a definition of what
"the Holocaust" encompasses.) And who is this "they"? A conspiracy of some
sort? Who are its members? What do they do to further their cause and how? Is
there one or more leaders involved? Who are these people? Why do they do what
they do? Are they succeeding? What effects will their plot(s) entail (both
short- and long-term)?

> If you don't think that's a good enough reason for
> someone to take an interest in the subject, too bad.

For who?

[.sig bludgeoned with a war mattock]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:56 EST 1997
Article: 144682 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk>  <3449e981.910912@news.demon.co.uk>  <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk> <3446c050$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk> <3452aff7$4$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce21e$c6cd70a0$d9b113cc@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144682

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3452aff7$4$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/24/97 
>    at 10:08 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> said:
> > Gord McFee  wrote:
> > >In <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/16/97 
> > >   at 10:44 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> > >said:
> > >> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

[...]

> > If someone makes an extreme remark which seems 
> > wildly exaggerated I tend to wish to correct it.
> 
> How so?  By snipping his words, which you just did?  By calling him a
> "smearing liar"?  Can you name *one* lie that Keren has told in this
> newsgroup, smearing or otherwise?

His lie that I would throw the Nizkooks in prison *for disagreeing with me.*
This has been explained to him over and over to no avail. He lies. Period.

> > Danny Keren has a habit of taking parts of postings 
> > by people out of context and repeating them continually 
> > in a deliberate smear attempt. 

100% correct.

> > For me, I don't care what Matt Giwer has said about 
> > one of your friends - though I do care very much about 
> > what he said about my Monarch and the late Princess.
> 
> You don't care that the same meanness and vileness drove 
> him to say the hateful things about the Queen and the Princess 
> of Wales that drove him to say all the other horrible things he 
> said about the people that you erroneously describe as my 
> friends?  You *should* care.  That is the point.

No, it is not.

> >I did not take these matters up in public with him as it 
> >was best to ignore them to reduce the amount of 
> >repetition. I wouldn't really care that Danny Keren does
> >a smear job on Anthony Sabatini with his partial quote,
> >or that he does the same thing for Matt Giwer except 
> >that he has done it to me a few times, when he was at 
> >least as inaccurate - and that annoyed me.
> 
> Well, I can tell you that Danny has not done it with Giwer.  

Keren and Giwer are two of a kind. Yin and Yang.

> And Anthony should think before he writes, and there 
> wouldn't be stupid, juvenile things that people can quote 
> back at him.

So you admit that he is deliberately smearing?

> > I am quite happy to be attacked for what I do say 
> > _in context_ and may even deserve it at times, but I'll 
> > be damned if I will let someone cheat with selective 
> > quotations. Now Danny Keren CAN debate reasonably, 
> > and he does know a lot about the Holocaust. And when 
> > he does debate properly I am quite happy to do so with 
> > him, and interested in what he can tell me. You will 
> > note, as he should, that I always give him lead-ins to 
> > quoting things about the Holocaust. But when he gets 
> > into smear mode he deserves all he gets - as does 
> > _anyone else_ who does the same thing. Why is it 
> > necessary? Isn't the truth enough? I can't remember 
> > whether it was John Morris or Mike Stein who
> > said: "What kind of truth needs lies to support it?"
> 
> I don't remember anyone saying that.

It was Mike Stein in response to Orest Slepokura's .sig: "What sort of truth
is it that needs protection?" as quoted from Auberon Waugh (The London Daily
Telegraph, May 9, 1992).

> > >What Danny has said about Giwer is true in spades, 
> > >as you know if you would remove your Giwer-
> > >colored glasses.  Explaining someone is one thing and 
> > >defending him is another, but you seem to always 
> > >find a way to cast Giwer in the most favorable light 
> > >possible. 

As you certain Nizkooks for their fellow travelers.

> > So the merest bit of detailed explanation - without 
> > much editorial comment, all of which is clearly 
> > flagged = the most favourable light possible?:-)

Apparently.

> Yes, because you also interpolate context and 
> motivation, neither of which you have the slightest 
> clue about in the example we have been discussing.

Of course not. *snort* Only Gord McFee has any "clues".

> > >This is a guy who entered the newsgroup with the 
> > >stated purpose of destroying it, 
> 
> > I understood that that statement came after a few 
> > weeks or so of aggressive argument. But so what? Is 
> > it a sin to say that you want to destroy a newsgroup? 
> > Blimey!
> 
> Did I say it was a sin?  There are certain basic rules of 
> civility in a newsgroup, and one of them is not to destroy it.  

The mere fact that you lend credence to such a statement speaks volumes.

> That's what Giwer tried to do and that's what the NA 
> slime tried to do.  You see, once again, you haven't a 
> clue of the context.  You haven't a clue about Giwer's 
> former "career" in Fidonet and *why* he had to pollute 
> Usenet.

And it is rather apparent that _you_ "haven't a clue" when it comes to Giwer.
You folks are mad with hatred/disgust/contempt/whatever when it comes to him,
so rational conclusions cannot be expected.

> > >who threatened death to at least three people I am 
> > >aware of, 
> 
> > Some of those "death threats" I do not consider death 
> > threats at all. That means the Joel Rosenberg warning, 
> > and the one against Danny Keren which was his: "If we 
> > were in combat together I would shoot you rather
> > than trust you in the same unit with a gun in your 
> > hand". I cannot by any stretch call that a death threat 
> > - and neither can you if you are honest. I don't know 
> > of other so-called death threats.
> 
> If I am honest?  Nice pre-condition you set up there, 
> Fergus.  I damn well can call them death threats, and 
> that's being very honest.

Then can we expect you to likewise describe Van Alstine's wish that Moran
succumb to a stroke a "death threat"? If not, why not?

> > >who harassed people privately, 
> 
> > By this I believe you refer to him sending an e-mail to 
> > Yale Edeiken in which he called the man a Jew - with I 
> > believe a copulatory expletive recommendation 
> > prepended. Gord, I like you, I think you are a decent, 
> > honest, pleasant chap, (honestly, no tongue in cheek 
> > at all I assure you) and because of that I ask you 
> > simply now: do you really consider that harassment? 
> > If I sent you an e-mail and called you a "Canadian git" 
> > would that be "anti-Canadianism ethnic intimidation" in
> > your mind? I doubt it.
> 
> No, you don't have a clue what I am talking about.  

Remember, all the "clues" have been somehow acquired by Gord and his pals.

> The Edeiken affair is only one example.  But on that 
> score, it would indeed be harassment if you sent me 
> that kind of e-mail and I replied that I didn't want any
> more vulgar e-mail from you, and you sent more anyway.  
> That goes over the line from being a pest to harassing 
> someone.  And that is precisely what happened in the 
> Edeiken affair.  

Ah, yes, the soft-spoken and angelic Yale Edeiken... *snort*

> More than that, he was caught by
> several service providers doing exactly what I said above, 
> to the point he was booted from 5 in less than a year.  
> Or do you suppose it was all a Jewish plot?

Depends. Who whined and complained to his ISPs and why?

[...]

> > If Judaism is a race, then why bother to use the magic 
> > "anti-Semitism" word when you have already said 
> > racism?
> 
> His racist remarks were addressed against blacks.

So does the term "racist" mean contempt/hatred solely against blacks?

> > This is not sophistry by me Gord, I just think that you
> > are doubling up.
> 
> Well, you are wrong old boy.  I was talking about two 
> different things. 

Unfortunately for you, they are *not* "two different things".

[...]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:56 EST 1997
Article: 144683 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk>  <3449e981.910912@news.demon.co.uk>  <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk> <3446c050$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk> <01bce0d4$b52412a0$a3a1cdcd@odin> <3452b230$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce21f$5368c550$d9b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 26 Oct 97 15:00:21 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144683

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3452b230$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce0d4$b52412a0$a3a1cdcd@odin>, on 10/24/97 
>    at 11:34 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> [deleted]
>  
> > > Some of those "death threats" I do not consider death 
> > > threats at all.
> 
> > I was once accused of having "thin skin" in this newsgroup, 
> > but the Nizkooks have shown time and time again how thin 
> > theirs is, although whether this is by design or happenstance 
> > is yet to be determined. Right now, I tend to think it is the 
> > former, though.
> 
> Trust me, fellow Canuck, your skin is so thin as to be non-existent. 
> :-)

That could be 102% correct, but it doesn't change a single thing I said.

> > [...]
> 
> > > >who wrote fake messages to himself and accused 
> > > >others--always Jews--of mailbombing him, 
> 
> > Do you any proof of this?
> 
> I'll answer, since it was I who said that, not Fergus.  Yes.

Go on...

> [deleted]
> 
> > > If you say that the latter is a religion, then why not 
> > > complain about the anti-Christian and anti-Catholic 
> > > remarks which he also made? 
> 
> > Possibly because there is little, if any, money to be made 
> > fighting anti-Catholicism, for example. I don't think this is 
> > the case with Gord, but it definitely applies to a certain 
> > group of greedy charlatans who pose as various 
> > 'organizations'.
> 
> What do you mean by that, Anthony?  The reference to me 
> that is.  That there is money to be made for me to fight 
> anti-Catholicism?  Pardon my denseness, I can't understand 
> the sentence.

It means simply that I don't think _you_ are out to make money by defending
anyone, as opposed to the you-know-who scumbag opportunists.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:58 EST 1997
Article: 144685 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.217
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144685

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/23/97 
>    at 10:38 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> said:
> 
> > On Mon, 20 Oct 97 21:59:39, you wrote:

[...]

> > >In fact, if anyone is playing dumb, it is you in your highly
> > >selective memory of the history of that thread.  You seem 
> > >to have forgotten that I at least asked Anthony very early 
> > >on how many bones he needed to be satisfied; I kept 
> > >asking him what his extrapolation factor was.  He never 
> > >did answer that question.  

This is absolutely incorrect. I answered your question many times. Perhaps
said answer was not to your satisfaction, but it _was_ "answered".

> > I do not dispute what you say Gord as it is correct. 
> > However, Anthony did say that he didn't know. He then 
> > tried floating the idea of the bones of 7 million, I seem 
> > to remember. He admitted to total ignorance in the 
> > matter, combined with suspicion. He even gave an al 
> > fresco chart based on his half-formed and ignorant 
> > ideas so I think that he was genuine in his question.

I was.

> My problem is and was his attitude, not his quest for 
> knowledge.  

My "attitude" stems from months and months of dealing with underhanded
Nizkooks. Questions are almost never answered in a direct and reasonable
fashion. Take, for example, my current question regarding engineering plans
and/or operations manuals for a gas chamber. Instead of clearly stating that
these do not, in fact, exist, I get the runaround, pictures containing _other
kinds_ of 'proof', all manner of stories, excuses and/or gibberish. Why not
just say, "No, we don't have actual engineering plans, but what we do have is
this..."? Why is that so difficult for Nizkooks? It gives people the
impression that they are hiding something and/or being dishonest.

> His approach was basically: "show me the bones to prove 
> your 'magic' figure, and don't waste my time with population 
> analysis, or anything else, which I hereby dismiss as 
> unacceptable".  

I don't understand what your problem here is. At the time I was interested in
the remains and nothing else. I didn't want to hear about any other crap until
the issue at hand was dealt with.

> Apart from te fact that he was wrong about population 
> analysis (neither is it unreliable, nor is it the only "proof"), 

This is a false statement. Mike Stein has clearly stated that 6 million figure
for dead Jews comes from population analysis and that we wasn't 100% certain
about the others. It does stand to reason, however, that the non-Jewish death
toll was also established in a like manner. As such, this 11 million figure
does indeed come population analysis.

> his attitude was one of purporting all the other evidence
> to be unacceptable and cooked up (no, he did not say it that clearly,
> but expressions like "the population analysis *spiel*", which he 
> used as recently as two days ago, leave little doubt what he means).

"Spiel" is most appropriate given the situation. It is circumstantial
evidence; not clear and un-arguable.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:59 EST 1997
Article: 144687 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 66 Questions JEWS Don't Want People to Think About
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3440F56C.4785@somewhere.com>  <34475dfe.306149423@news.mindspring.com>  <62grmm$7q5$2@morgoth.sfu.ca> <01bcddb8$1d71a7c0$6e55eccd@odin> <344d460f$2$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bcde92$ef0a4370$f7938bcf@odin> <344f8615.11175213@news.v-wave.com> <01bcdf46$b6f02ef0$550bcdcd@odin> <344fe59e$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce092$0e788e00$27718bcf@odin> <3452b58f$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce223$b4c2a880$d9b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 26 Oct 97 15:31:43 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144687

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3452b58f$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce092$0e788e00$27718bcf@odin>, on 10/24/97 
>    at 03:36 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <344fe59e$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <01bcdf46$b6f02ef0$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/23/97 
> > >    at 12:04 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > > > John Morris  wrote in article
> > > > <344f8615.11175213@news.v-wave.com>...
> > > > > In <01bcde92$ef0a4370$f7938bcf@odin>, on 22 Oct 97 02:37:51 GMT,
> > > > > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > [snip]
> > > > > 
> > > > > >The Holocaust is one thing because it happened over 50 
> > > > > >years ago and nothing can be done for it now. The 
> > > > > >quasi-'genocide' against the Palestinians is happening 
> > > > > >here and now. Why are you not up in arms about it in 
> > > > > >the same way you are with the Holocaust?
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1. What makes you think we aren't?
> > > 
> > > > Haven't seen any indication of it whatsoever. If you are, why 
> > > > not just say so?
> > > 
> > > It is irrelevant to this newsgroup as John  tried--vainly--to tell you.
> 
> > And yet neither you nor John have been able to post any evidence to
> > prove what is and what isn't on-topic for this newsgroup.
> 
> Whoa!  There is no "evidence" to post about what the newsgroup is
> supposed to be about, but the topic since 1993 at least has been the
> Holocaust, an event which you yourself said happened 50 years ago.  

And yet a topic which is also frequently discussed here is indeed the
Palestinian situation. According what you are saying above, then it is indeed
on-topic.

> The group was actually started by "revisionists" and a 
> bunch of us came in and chased 'em away.  You don't 
> have a clue of the history of it, do you?  It is not 
> supposed to be current events.  

I have searched in vain for this group's charter. If you can, post it and that
will be the end of this discussion.

> I am not playing topic police, indeed I have no right to, 
> but I ask you: if you want to discuss the Palestinian 
> situation, would it not be more appropriate in the Middle 
> East newsgroups?  

But Zionism also plays a large role and this is frequently discussed here.

> That's where I would go to discuss it.  And that's why 
> you and I have both shown admirable restraint in not 
> getting into some of the Church stuff, although we are 
> both dying to.  :-)  

As for me, I don't want to get into certain aspects because it's a long and
_very_ controversial topic. At least half of the arguments will depend on
faith.

[...]

> > > > > 2. How many lines per week of breast-beating 
> > > > > about the Palestinians would you like before we 
> > > > > could return to the putative topic of the 
> > > > > newsgroup?
> > > 
> > > > 182 per week per Nizkook.
> > > 
> > > Silly juvenile talk.
> 
> > For a silly, juvenile question. You _did_ read John's 
> > question, did you not? (But, of course, you had no 
> > scathing remarks for it.)
> 
> John's question clearly went over your head.  

It is indeed a marvel at how I am able to operate in society at all. *snort*

> That's what I meant by juvenile, not the words you used.

No, Morris acted like a smart-ass with his ridiculous, moronic question. You
know what happens when you ask a stupid question.

[...]

> > > > > I know this will come as a shock to your sheltered 
> > > > > sensibilities, Anthony, but there actually are people 
> > > > > who deny the Holocaust and who falsify history in 
> > > > > order to sustain their denial. I can think of no other 
> > > > > historical event which has an organized campaign of 
> > > > > denial associated with it.
> > > 
> > > > So let's discuss that. What is the scope of this "campaign"? 
> > > > How "organized" do you think they are? When you say they 
> > > > "deny the Holocaust", what exactly to do mean? (Before 
> > > > answering that you'll have to give us a definition of what 
> > > > "the Holocaust" encompasses.) And who is this "they"? A 
> > > > conspiracy of some sort? Who are its members? What do 
> > > > they do to further their cause and how? Is there one or 
> > > > more leaders involved? Who are these people? Why do 
> > > > they do what they do? Are they succeeding? What effects 
> > > > will their plot(s) entail (both short- and long-term)?
> > > 
> > > Do you read *any* articles in this newsgroup, other than 
> > > flame opportunities?
> 
> > Yes.
> 
> > > Seek it out in your beloved DejaNews.  Read Zuendel's
> > > web site--*really* read it.  Ditto for the NA slimebuckets 
> > > and the NSWPP.
> 
> > I asked John some serious questions. I'd like to hear his 
> > opinions and ideas on the matter. If you are so inclined, 
> > post yours.
> 
> Well you are out of luck in my case.  I have been posting on this stuff
> for 4 years or so, and I am not going to repeat reams of stuff I have
> already posted dozens of times.

Well, perhaps John, then...?

> > > > > If you don't think that's a good enough reason for
> > > > > someone to take an interest in the subject, too bad.
> > > 
> > > > For who?
> > > 
> > > You.
> 
> > I doubt that.
> 
> I expected you would.

Good. I dislike surprises. Don't you?

[.sig left with a gut wound]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Sun Oct 26 12:34:59 EST 1997
Article: 144690 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Ashkenazi Jewish racial predation, an exercise in camouflage
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,triangle.politics
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
References: <343C5D4D.88CEA1AE@ix.netcom.com>  <343D153F.7441@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>  <343E3E82.4C652564@ix.netcom.com>  <34403C7B.10D3F2F@bigfoot.com>  <61pnlk$g4k@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>  <3441C68B.30F20C92@ix.netcom.com>  <6247ud$ak8@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>  <3445BE72.D0BE7803@ix.netcom.com>    <3449A0C7.D1B7FBB7@ix.netcom.com>  <344abace$1$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <344E3308.CC220DBE@ix.netcom.com>  <344EA38E.106@concentric.net> <344febf3$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34506B6A.58B0@concentric.net> <3452ac44.35326740@news.uniserve.com> <3453227E.6D1D@concentric.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144690 alt.politics.white-power:99948 alt.politics.nationalism.white:79667 alt.skinheads:78077 alt.conspiracy:227504 triangle.politics:26056

[follow-ups set to alt.revisionism]

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<3453227E.6D1D@concentric.net>...
> Hilary Ostrov wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:33:30 -0700, in <34506B6A.58B0@concentric.net>,
> > Michael Ives  wrote:
> > 
> > [snip]
> > 
> > ["Mr. Ives"]
> > >> > Himmler clearly says 'Judenevakuierung', which 
> > >> > can only mean the evacuation, or relocation, of 
> > >> > the Jews.  The word "Ausrottung", which can 
> > >> > translate (however imperfectly) as "elimination" 
> > >> > or indeed "extermination", here applies clearly 
> > >> > to "Das jüdische Volk".  That is to say, what 
> > >> > Himmler discusses in this passage is the 
> > >> > elimination of the Jewish _Volk_ as a component 
> > >> > of German society.
> > >>
> > 
> > [Mr. McFee]
> > >> That is idiotic for several reasons.  First of all, 
> > >> Himmler says "the evacuation of the Jews, the 
> > >> extermination of the Jewish race".  The two
> > >> sentence fragments are consonant, both in English
> > >>  and German, or to put it in a way you might 
> > >> understand (but won't admit), the two sentence
> > >> fragments complement each other.
> > >
> > >LOL!!! Sorry, Gord.  "Consonant" and "complement" 
> > >do not have the same meaning.
> > 
> > LOL!!! Sorry, "Mr. Ives"  Nothing in Mr. McFee's statement 
> > suggests that they do.  
> 
> reposted from just above...
> 
> > >> "The two sentence fragments are consonant, both 
> > >> in English and German, or to put it in a way you 
> > >> might understand (but won't admit), the two 
> > >> sentence fragments complement each other."
> 
> Damn, this Ostroll is dumb!

You have no idea...

> > >So much for your fluency in English.
> > 
> > So much for Mr. Ives' ability to appreciate the 
> > nuances of the English language.
> > 
> > hro
> 
> Sure, Ostroll, sure!

The Ostroll thinks it has acquired some sort of mastery over the English
language because it plays Scrabble (tm) and is given to fits of verbosity and
frequent ostentatious displays. In truth, however, it only shows itself up as
a pompous and brazen old hag. Amusing in its own right, to be sure, but rather
annoying after a while.

[.sig left behind]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 00:42:08 EST 1997
Article: 144696 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Holocaust Calendar: October 24
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <62pa0l$rv$1@news.trends.ca> <01bce094$6af4eff0$27718bcf@odin> <345c7441.3488624@news.demon.co.uk> <34544162.1090973@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Date: 26 Oct 97 15:57:59 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144696

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<34544162.1090973@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> 
> >"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >
> >>[newsgroups trimmed to alt.revisionism]
> >>
> >>Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote in article
> >><62pa0l$rv$1@news.trends.ca>...
> >>> [Follow-ups set]
> >>> 
> >>> October 24
> >>> 
> >>> 1944
> >>> 
> >>> A transport of three hundred prisoners, a third of 
> >>> whom are Jewish, 
> >>
> >>How about the others, Mr. McVay? The other two thirds 
> >>of the prisoners. Why mention only the Jewish ones, 
> >>Mr. McVay?
> >
> >Anthony, don't you know the answer? The other mere 
> >two-thirds were only people, so their deaths were not an 
> >act against God, merely one against man. I think.

Indeed, for was it not ole' Abe 'Slick' Foxman, chief charlatan of the ADL,
who piteously whined the following?

"[The Holocaust] is not simply one example of genocide but a nearly successful
attempt on the life of God's chosen children and, thus, on God himself."  -
Abraham Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League,  ADL's
*Frontline*, Jan 1994, p 2.

He's laying it on a little thick, don't you think? LOL!

> And you think incorrectly but what else is new with you,
> Fergus?

And yet Curtis doesn't even _try_ to, er, 'correct' the situation. Makes one
wonder what Curtis is babbling about. LOL! Whadda loon!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 00:42:10 EST 1997
Article: 144699 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin> <345284a9.3022250@news.jump.net> <01bcdf45$24289c70$550bcdcd@odin> <344ff642$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce0a3$45621c40$27718bcf@odin> <3452c3c9$10$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.217
Date: 26 Oct 97 16:07:15 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144699

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3452c3c9$10$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce0a3$45621c40$27718bcf@odin>, on 10/24/97 
>    at 05:40 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <344ff642$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <01bcdf45$24289c70$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/22/97 
> > >    at 11:53 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > > > Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> > > > <345284a9.3022250@news.jump.net>...
> > > > > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> > > > > ><344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net>...
> > > > > >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Anthony, why are you trailing Mike Curtis around like a little 
> > > groupie? Isn't that what you accused me of doing to Giwer?
> 
> > No, Curtis attracted my attention by continuing his character
> > assassination (specifically mentioning me). Now I'm just takin' out
> > the trash!
> 
> What!  He dared to mention you in a post not to you?!  

Indeed! He took my name in vain! Sooner or later, he will force me to again
invoke the mighty name of Duke Nukem!  ;-)

> The bounder.

That's not exactly the word I had in mind...  ;-)

> Remember the Hilary thread?  Nah, I didn't think so.

Sorry, Gord, but "you lose *again*".  ;-)

[.sig flayed]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 00:42:11 EST 1997
Article: 144700 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3436f52e.1883153@news.jump.net>  <3457c8f1.4094064@news.demon.co.uk>  <34383939$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <343bb2dc.2846559@news.demon.co.uk>  <343af5cd$2$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <343DDF7E.27D9@capital.net>  <3442f838.1286309@news.demon.co.uk>  <3442cb65.1287510@news.jump.net>  <34559769.4186956@news.demon.co.uk>  <344b59f0.82227121@news.jump.net>  <344e7f81.65144@news.demon.co.uk> <344fe23a$2$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <346075e1.3904185@news.demon.co.uk> <3453401c.765378@news.jump.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144700

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3453401c.765378@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >Gord McFee  wrote:
> >>In <344e7f81.65144@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/22/97 
> >>   at 11:07 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> >>said:
> >>
> >But, just in case I get misrepresented, or it is thought that I have
> >made any implication against Laura Finsten in this manner, I have
> >*never* seen her post anything that could by any stretch of the
> >imagination be construed as filth. I was speaking of her correcting a
> >spelling of mine, and another of someone else, in the last couple of
> >days - nothing more. According to Mr Curtis, anyone who corrects a
> >spelling has lost an argument. 
> 
> When I fist used this on you and Sabatini, 

Truly? When did I insult you for spell mistakes, liar? Man! Don't you _ever_
cease your lies and personal slurs? Don't complain when you get what you
deserve, Curtis! Don't you dare!

> Fergus, it was in response to the entire result of your responses. 
> Let's see, I would ask for certain historical information from you 
> in order to understand what your point was. I never got my 
> questions answered but I did get spelling corrections. 

Another Curtis lie. Both Fergus and myself answered most of your silly
questions (with the exception of the truly inane ones which you posed just for
kicks and in order to create confusion).

> That's when I said that commenting on spelling
> errors in the act of the intellectually defeated. Since you are such a
> semantic stickler I guess I could say that *I* did not say, exactly,
> that you had lost the argument. I did imply that you appeared to be
> uninformed about the subject of the argument and therefore spelling
> mistakes was all you had left to comment on--intellectually. 

This coming from a man you thinks himself beyond the ken of mortal man. LOL!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 00:42:12 EST 1997
Article: 144703 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!Supernews60!supernews.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anthony, Which Ones Are Honest?
Date: 26 Oct 1997 17:01:30 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Message-ID: <01bce230$19448600$d9b113cc@odin>
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Michael Ives  wrote in article
<3453173B.628C@concentric.net>...
> Dear Anthony Sabatini:
> 
> Since I recently had a kind of deja vu experience with Van Alstine: he
> repeatedly lied about what I had posted (even when shown the exact
> text), then posted other people's remarks as though they were mine, then
> contended that I had posted exactly the oppposite of what I had actually
> said, and finally, when he could bear being shown up no longer, came up
> with a sensitive conclusion on the order of 
> 
> > # Mr. Ives is an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who
> > # loves bending over and taking it in the ass from his
> > # Nazi buddies.

Charming fellow, is he not?

> Now I realize that's just par for the course for Van Alstine, but it
> reminded me of my experience with the infamous hatemonger Herman
> (greatdane@mindspring.com) before I kill-filed him.  

I haven't seen 'Crazy' Herman around in weeks. He may have lost his account,
much to the collective rejoicing of most Usenet participants.

> Very similar
> techniques, although I know they are not the same person.

Indeed. Markie-pooh would be hard-pressed matching, er, 'wits' with Herman,
but that's not saying much!  ;-)

> But I got to thinking, who are the good guys among the Holocaust
> hatemongers?  Which of them value integrity and civility?  Which ones
> are honest?  And I couldn't think of an answer.
> 
> You have more experience with them than I do.  Can you fill me in?

I'm not gonna answer this question. I don't want to be rude or anything, but I
think answering it here will likely get me into trouble.  :-O

I'll try to find someone who can act as a go-between so we can get each
other's e-mail address if that's OK with you.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 00:42:13 EST 1997
Article: 144704 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
Date: 26 Oct 1997 17:04:02 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 20
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144704

Fafner13  wrote in article
<19971026070500.CAA15974@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
> >From: Gord McFee 
> >Date: Sat, Oct 25, 1997 23:01 EDT
> >Message-id: <3452c086$9$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
> 
> >
> >Heavens!  Curtis sure has you and Anthony all wound up.  The two of you
> >are following him around like a couple of puppies.
> >
> >-- 
> >Gord McFee 
> 
> Sure-I know a fire hydrant when I see one-when ya gotta go, ya gotta go,
man,
>  go.

LOL!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 00:42:14 EST 1997
Article: 144707 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The mendacious mis-uses of the Holocaust (was: Yet another round of Gobbledi-talk (tm))
Date: 26 Oct 1997 17:12:33 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <01bce231$a5504f70$d9b113cc@odin>
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk>  <345021B7.4638@concentric.net> <01bce020$4a970dc0$64a1cdcd@odin>  <345315CC.1A7E@concentric.net>
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Michael Ives  wrote in article
<345315CC.1A7E@concentric.net>...
> Anthony, notice that when Keren is shown up he reverts to a more 
> polite (albeit certainly not contrite) style.  

Yeah, I have kinda noticed that. I wonder why...?

> Three days later he comes up with this meek little plea:  
> "it just does not make sense to claim that
> 'the US helps Israel because of the Holocaust'"  
> 
> But he doesn't tell us why, then, the US helps Israel!  If it 
> weren't for the US, Israel, and hence all of the bloodshed 
> in the Middle East, wouldn't even _exist._

He can't, that's why. He's just making excuses now.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:46 EST 1997
Article: 144795 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <345a71af.2830902@news.demon.co.uk> <3457447c.1885017@news.jump.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144795

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3457447c.1885017@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> 
> >mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >
> >>redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >>
> >>>does not invalidate the Einsatzgruppen reports! But when 
> >>>YOU try to make excuses for Moshe Peer's ramblings you 
> >>>just anger people. If you occasionally said, "Yep, that one 
> >>>is probably a nutter, or trying to cash in" nobody would 
> >>>argue with you - at least, I would not:-). And anyone else 
> >>>who did would look silly.
> >>
> >>I believe I've said that.
> >
> >Good. Sensible. Moshe Peer neither confirms nor denies the 
> >Holocaust. What he does do is show that there are some 
> >strange stories which are feted for various reasons, most of 
> >which I suspect are connected to gain.
> 
> What has he gained, Fergus? 

Earnings from his book, dimwit. You see what I mean about you playing dumb,
Curtis?

> What historians use his story?

Who cares?

This is the policy I'm gonna adopt with you, Curtis. You scream and shout in
here all the time about what *you* wanna see and what *you* think is important
or what is and isn't on-topic. From now on, I'm gonna tell you the same thing.

> Who keeps bringing him up? 

People who are interested. Besides, it just goes to show a little 'background'
in this "Shoah business".

> If there are strange stories, as there are about many historical 
> events, does not say that all stories are strange.

So what?

> >>I've not met, read, or seen him. I only heard about him 
> >>from deniers who ALWAYS bring him up. 
>
> >I've read a  newspaper report or two which were posted here. 
> 
> Yet, you think he's important in some way? What way is that, 
> Fergus?

I don't know how Mr. McClelland views the matter, but I see it as just one
more way in which the Holocaust is put to mendacious misuses.

[.sig squashed]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:47 EST 1997
Article: 144797 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk>  <01bce1ad$99b5edc0$55a1cdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Date: 27 Oct 97 02:45:12 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144797

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> # Yes, you can. It's called quoting out of context. You
> # know that, Keren, and that's why you're a dishonest person.
> 
> Let's see. What is "out of context" in quoting Sabatini's
> hysterical rants, such as the following:
> 
> In  Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
> the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
> , wrote the following about
> the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
> of the Holocaust:
> 
> # Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
> # have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
> # be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
> # lunch is served.
> 
> 

You didn't quote the bits before my words. See below.

> But, do not forget: "revisionists" always claim that
> they support free speech...

As for myself, I do. As to Keren and people like him, here's how much "free
speech" they support:

http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html

> # You deliberately try to smear people, Keren.
> 
> This is simply a lie. You have clearly stated that,
> if it was up to you, you'd throw the "Nizkor"
> contributors in jail. These are *your* words. You
> said them. I am only quoting them.

I have explained it to you countless times, but instead you choose to continue
your smearing. I told you how someone was asking what your Nizkooks would do
with the all the files you collect on people posting here, if you would
"interrogate" us like the Commies used to. I replied, tongue in cheek, making
a play on words on "interrogate". But you never listen, Keren. You keep
smearing. Don't worry, though, it's all gonna come back to you. In spades.

> # But you know that what goes around comes around. Me,
> # I'm waiting for just that.
> 
> Is this a threat?

I told you before that I don't make "threats", Keren. I make promises. But
that's besides the point; I was referring to those fickle and merciless Fates.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:48 EST 1997
Article: 144798 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <01bce090$69841eb0$27718bcf@odin>  <01bce1af$6a7f1110$55a1cdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce282$d2fd1b00$9b938bcf@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144798

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> # Daniel Keren  wrote:
> 
> ## It is not obvious that he [Peer] was a liar; he was
> ## 11-years-old when the war ended, and he probably did
> ## not understand what was happening to him.
> 
> # Moshe Peer claimed he spent the last *19 YEARS* doing
> # 'research' on his book, and even then he claimed there
> # was a gas chamber where none was ever found.
> 
> He formed his memory of this event - which is probably
> untrue, unless this was a gassing not with HCN, but
> with some other gas, during a "medical experiment" of
> this type (such "experiments" are well-documented) - when
> he was less than 11-years-old. It is not obvious that
> he is a liar; he can be "accused" of clinging to a
> memory which, for him, is very real.

What a farce! The goddamn liar claimed to have been 'gassed' AT LEAST SIX
TIMES at Bergen-Belsen at the same time as all his friends and a large number
of adults. Where there any gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen?

> But all this endless dwelling on the testimony of a
> child is simply a lame attempt to divert attention
> away from the important testimonies 

No, it is not. It is a perfect example of that good ole' "Shoah business".

[...]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:49 EST 1997
Article: 144807 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Anthony, Which Ones Are Honest?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3453173B.628C@concentric.net> <3453B922.1225@capital.net> <3453D9E4.1710@capital.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144807

Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo  wrote in article
<3453D9E4.1710@capital.net>...
> Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo wrote:
> > 
> > Michael Ives wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Anthony Sabatini:
> > >
> > > Since I recently had a kind of deja vu experience with Van 
> > > Alstine: he repeatedly lied about what I had posted (even 
> > > when shown the exact text), then posted other people's 
> > > remarks as though they were mine, then contended that I 
> > > had posted exactly the oppposite of what I had actually
> > > said, and finally, when he could bear being shown up no 
> > > longer, came up with a sensitive conclusion on the order of
> > >
> > > > # Mr. Ives is an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who
> > > > # loves bending over and taking it in the ass from his
> > > > # Nazi buddies.
> > >
> > > Now I realize that's just par for the course for Van Alstine, 
> > > but it reminded me of my experience with the infamous 
> > > hatemonger Herman (greatdane@mindspring.com) before 
> > > I kill-filed him.  Very similar techniques, although I know 
> > > they are not the same person.

[...]

> > Michael:
> > 
> > Fairness demands that I interject here in re your remarks 
> > concerning Mark Van Alstine. At the outset, let's get one 
> > thing straight, my remarks are not about poster verbiage 
> > but rather a specific clarification. 

[...]

> > In effect, as 'quoted' (by you) in this instant post, it quite
> > clearly 'says' one thing BUT in its original IN TOTO sentence,
> > and as memory serves, the context of the remark is quite 
> > different. 

[...]

> INFORMATIONAL ADDENDUM:
> 
> The forum is invited to review th DEJANEWS archives, under 
> Mark's name, specifically article 71 (out of 746 articles posted) 
> written by Dan Keren 10-20-97 under the thread 'Theological 
> Declaration of Barmen' wherein Doc Keren, in that article, 
> quotes Mark Van Alstine, to wit:
> 
>       "BTW, a personal slur would be more along the lines of
>        saying something like: 'Mr. Ives is an ignorant ..... '
> 
> In effect, the 'quote' rendered by Michael Ives was and is taken
> out of context as to both intent and meaning as he (Ives) presents 
> same in this specific case. Read WITHIN context, the meaning is quite
> different then 'quoted' as a 'stand alone' declarative comment by
> Michael Ives.

[...]

Doc, I know you don't like it when you're posts are snipped, but this one was
getting rather lengthy so I took some stuff out which I don't think affects
anything you were saying.

In any case, on to business.

If you do a little more research on the topic, you'll note that the Savage
Fairy, Mark Van Alstine, did indeed utter those words with wild abandon and
malicious glee in a very direct and clear fashion to _me_. Here's the relevant
quote and message-ID:

"In Anthony 'beat 'em with a pickaxe' Sabatini's case, however, given that he
_is_ an ignorant slut of a Nazi fuckhead who loves bending over and taking it
in the ass from his Nazi buddies" one is hard pressed to tell where commentary
on behavior ends and personal slurs begins! LOL!" - Mark Van Alstine in
article .

Now, it is true that the furious Van Alstine brayed the above in a savage
(drunken?) fit of berserk-like rage after confusing me with Mr. Ives, but
Markie-pooh very specifically stated those words. He has a well-known and
well-deserved reputation for explosive and wild rages as further evidenced by
his recent maddened attack on a fellow traveler, for example. (I also recall
_you_ being the target of one of his rants, albeit he was only just
_beginning_ to boil and blister with anger that time.)

Now I think Mr. Ives was only talking about the Savage Fairy's filthy
language, but that's just my take on what happened.

Pax, Doc.

CCed to Doc Tony.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:50 EST 1997
Article: 144809 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net> <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin> <34510e91.679318@news.jump.net> <01bce0a0$900c5dd0$27718bcf@odin> <3453ed29.688300080@news.jump.net> <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin> <34539fcd$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce288$de0ee900$9b938bcf@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144809

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<34539fcd$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin>, on 10/25/97 
>    at 05:22 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > > There is obviously no attempt to understand the material as 
> > > a whole. 
> 
> > Because you folks have yet been able to present a single bit of
> > evidence that leaves no doubts. You can't come up with an authentic
> > gas chamber from a Nazi camp (at best you're left with
> > 'reconstructions'), you can't provide an operations manual for one of
> > these contraptions, the 11 million figure comes from 'population
> > analysis' (as opposed to Nazi death records), etc., etc.
> 
> Fess up, Anthony.  

*Gasp!* Surely not another YANC?!? (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy)

> Your 11 million bodies thread was taken straight from
> the IHR 66 Q&Rs, 

Not at all. I assume that you folks have _already_ argued all there is between
the Web pages. No, I'm asking questions that *I* want answered to *my*
satisfaction. I'm tired of reading FAQs, counter-FAQs and all that crap.

> and this latest is the Greg Raven "unless you show me a
> gas chamber, I will not believe" line.  

Nope. How many times have I gotta say that I'm asking questions the _way_ *I*
want, and I won't be happy with the standard, "Go see the following document
at Nizkor".

> Why are you simply spouting denier canards?

Asking to be shown evidence is *not* a "canard" no matter how many times you
say it. Besides, I get to show people just what the Nizkook's have got.

[.sig left on the side of the road]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:51 EST 1997
Article: 144810 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net> <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin> <34510e91.679318@news.jump.net> <01bce0a0$900c5dd0$27718bcf@odin> <3453ed29.688300080@news.jump.net> <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin> <3453a07e$8$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce289$630af270$9b938bcf@odin>
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Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3453a07e$8$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin>, on 10/25/97 
>    at 05:22 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > > What did Mark post for you to _study_ and try to understand. 
> 
> > He certainly didn't post the engineering plans and/or operations
> > manual I asked for. You jerks knew you didn't have 'em, but instead of
> > being honest and just saying so, perhaps telling us you had some
> > _other_ bits of evidence, you lied and continue to claim you posted
> > what I asked for. This is a blatant, spit-in-your-eye lie, Curtis, and
> > you kooks know it. You gotta know that by now.
> 
> Funny, Anthony, how twice now, you made it clear you would only accept
> as evidence things that you knew (or were pretty sure) didn't exist.

You misunderstand. Nizkooks keep shouting how these plans exist. Now I've
looked around at the Nizkult site but didn't see 'em. I assumed anything
_that_ important would certainly be there, but it isn't. Now I ask where these
plans are, and all I get is lies, half-truths and bullshit in return. It's the
standard Nizkook MO, to be sure, but I want this all out in the open.

And no, it's not a YANC (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy).

[.sig gone with the wind]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:53 EST 1997
Article: 144811 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net> <19971022181200.OAA02211@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net> <01bcdf2c$8c03ddf0$ae56eccd@odin> <3450d5bc.794670@news.demon.co.uk> <3452ec38.688059346@news.jump.net> <01bce16a$ccc00310$c9b113cc@odin> <3453a330$11$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce28a$516307a0$9b938bcf@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144811

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3453a330$11$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce16a$ccc00310$c9b113cc@odin>, on 10/25/97 
>    at 05:28 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > > Actually, I don't consider you an enemy. So I guess you 
> > > are on my list of friends. 
> 
> > Curtis is trying to suck up to Fergus after all the abuse he 
> > piled on him. What a goddamn hypocrite!
> 
> God yes!  It would be terrible if two people got along here, 
> wouldn't it Anthony?  

Curtis doesn't want to "get along", Gord. You know that. He's here to play
games and 'trap' people for his amusement. He's practically said as much!

> You would have no arguments to butt 
> into and would have to start all the flamewars yourself.

*Gawd!* What a bleak and desolate world that would be!  ;-)

> > > I don't consider Anthony an enemy either. He's on my list
> > > of juvenile brats.
> 
> > Keep it up, Curtis! I enjoy it greatly when you clods are 
> > shown up to be what you truly are! I am pleased.  :-)
> 
> Glad you are so happy.

Thanks, Gord. Seeing Nizkooks exposed is one of those little pleasures in
life.

But wait. Things get, um, 'funnier' from here.

[.sig shred to bits]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:54 EST 1997
Article: 144812 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net> <19971022181200.OAA02211@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net> <01bcdf2c$8c03ddf0$ae56eccd@odin> <3450d5bc.794670@news.demon.co.uk> <3452ec38.688059346@news.jump.net> <3458d368.4294187@news.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce28b$8137a390$9b938bcf@odin>
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Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<3458d368.4294187@news.demon.co.uk>...
> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> 
> >redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >
> >>"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >>
> >>>Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >>>> Sorry. As for the rest of your friends who want to pretend they 
> >>>> are something they are not; I've decided not to help them along 
> >>>> in their delusions. They can delude themselves on their own 
> >>>> without my help.
> >>>
> >>>Does this mean you'll be leaving alt.revisionism sometime soon?
> >>
> >>Didn't you know Anthony, his main aim in being here is to sneer? So,
> >>as long as there is anyone here who is not on his list of friends,
> >>there is no reason for him ever to leave. Unless, finally, - with an
> >>attack of self-awareness - he realises how silly he looks, and how
> >>worthless the postings he makes to those whom he criticizes -
> >>whereupon embarrassment may make him go away.
> >
> >Actually, I don't consider you an enemy. So I guess you are on my list
> >of friends. I don't consider Anthony an enemy either. He's on my list
> >of juvenile brats.
> 
> Who spoke of enemies? In a newsgroup? I don't think you will be
> sending me a Christmas prezzie though Mike. 

Hah! Curtis is too cheap to spring for a couple a bucks to buy a book from Mr.
Bellinger's store. Cheap bastiche!

> How did I get on the friends list? 

By being at the wrong place at the wrong time, I guess...  ;-)

> As to Anthony, he seems to have admirably pointed out
> one "error" after another by you in our debating, for 
> which I, for one, am grateful. 

Oh, you're quite welcome! But truth be told, I was being somewhat selfish in
that I rather enjoy pointing out Curtis' ill-hidden hypocrisy!  ;-)

> If "juvenile" could be taken to mean youthful
> energy, then I agree with that, though not the 
> brat part. 

*Blush* Gee, thanks Mr. McClelland!  ;-)

> After all, youth is boisterous and allowances should 
> be made from time to time!

Kewl! Like, _totally_ radical, dewd! Like, *awsome*, man!  ;-)



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:54 EST 1997
Article: 144815 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Holocaust Calendar: October 24
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <62pa0l$rv$1@news.trends.ca> <01bce094$6af4eff0$27718bcf@odin> <345c7441.3488624@news.demon.co.uk> <34544162.1090973@news.jump.net> <01bce227$5fe50de0$d9b113cc@odin> <345423B7.4C3A@concentric.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce28c$4098dd30$9b938bcf@odin>
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Date: 27 Oct 97 04:00:05 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144815

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<345423B7.4C3A@concentric.net>...
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> > 
> > Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> > <34544162.1090973@news.jump.net>...
> > > redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> > >
> > > >"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>[newsgroups trimmed to alt.revisionism]
> > > >>
> > > >>Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote in article
> > > >><62pa0l$rv$1@news.trends.ca>...
> > > >>> [Follow-ups set]
> > > >>>
> > > >>> October 24
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 1944
> > > >>>
> > > >>> A transport of three hundred prisoners, a third of
> > > >>> whom are Jewish,
> > > >>
> > > >>How about the others, Mr. McVay? The other two thirds
> > > >>of the prisoners. Why mention only the Jewish ones,
> > > >>Mr. McVay?
> > > >
> > > >Anthony, don't you know the answer? The other mere
> > > >two-thirds were only people, so their deaths were not an
> > > >act against God, merely one against man. I think.
> > 
> > Indeed, for was it not ole' Abe 'Slick' Foxman, chief charlatan 
> > of the ADL, who piteously whined the following?
> > 
> > "[The Holocaust] is not simply one example of genocide but a 
> > nearly successful attempt on the life of God's chosen children 
> > and, thus, on God himself."  - Abraham Foxman, National 
> > Director of the Anti-Defamation League,  ADL's *Frontline*, 
> > Jan 1994, p 2.
> 
> Yikes.  These people are *truly scary*.  

Absolutely pitiful, is it not?

> It's tribalism taken to the nth degree.
> They would--and do--justify absolutely anything that way.  
> "God's chosen children" indeed!  So *that's* where all the 
> self-righteousness comes from.

Bah! These greedy bastards at the ADL, SWC and related parasitical groups
couldn't care less about Jews. They are only interested in money. Remember:

"The ADL, like the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, has built its
financial appeal to Jews on its ability to portray the Jewish people as
surrounded by enemies who are on the verge of launching threatening
anti-Semitic campaigns. It has a professional stake in exaggerating the
dangers, and sometimes allows existing racial or political prejudices in the
Jewish world to influence how it will portray the potential dangers." -
Michael Lerner, ex-ADL president, in _Jews and Blacks: Let the Healing Begin_

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:56 EST 1997
Article: 144816 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: If Revisionists Were Consistent
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3450F442.467C@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com>  <3451B03A.7121@concentric.net> <34520D91.21D8@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com> <01bce186$61005410$53b113cc@odin> <3453C0DE.22D9@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144816

David Gehrig  wrote in article
<3453C0DE.22D9@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com>...
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> > 
> > David Gehrig  wrote in article
> > <34520D91.21D8@ixnay.amspay.champaign.pdnt.com>...
> > > Michael Ives wrote:
> > > >
> 
> Revisionism at its creative best. Michael Ives responds to my 
> post with a pallid bit of copycat "mo too", and then ....

I though *both* your's and Mr. Ives' posts were funny. What's the big deal,
David?

> > > And better luck next time, old chum, on picking a topic
> > > that doesn't end up shooting you in the foot.
> > 
> > I couldn't have put it better myself.
> 
> Anthony Sabatini responds to my note about revisionists and 
> that  ever-so-awkward Zundel-and-UFOs issue with a pallid 
> bit of copycat "me too."

Huh? Say again?

> Good golly, 

Didn't this stuff die out with Charlie Brown?

> just another sign that antisemites haven't had a good new
> idea since the middle ages. No wonder they think spam is 
> a virtue.

"Anti-semites (tm)", eh? Methinks the columnist Joseph Sobran says it best:

< begin quote >

Nobody worries about being called "anti-Italian" or "anti-French" or
"anti-Christian"; these aren't words that launch avalanches of vituperation
and make people afraid to do business with you. 

It's pointless to ask what "anti-Semitic" means. It means trouble. It's an
attack signal. The practical function of the word is not to define or
distinguish things, but to conflate them indiscriminately - to equate the
soberest criticism of Israel or Jewish power with the murderous hatred of
Jews. And it works. Oh, how it works. 

When Joe McCarthy accused people of being Communists, the charge was
relatively precise. You knew what he meant. The accusation could be falsified.
In fact the burden of proof was on the accuser: when McCarthy couldn't make
his loose charges stick, he was ruined. (Of course, McCarthy was hated less
for his "loose" charges than for his accurate ones. His real offense was
stigmatizing the Left.) 

The opposite applies to charges of "anti-Semitism." The word has no precise
definition. An "anti-Semite" may or may not hate Jews. But he is certainly
hated by Jews. There is no penalty for making the charge loosely; the accused
has no way of falsifying the charge, since it isn't defined. 

A famous example. When Abe Rosenthal accused Pat Buchanan of "anti-Semitism,"
everyone on both sides understood the ground rules. There was a chance that
Buchanan would be ruined, even if the charge was baseless. And there was no
chance that Rosenthal would be ruined - even if the charge was baseless. Such
are the rules. I violate them, in a way, even by spelling them out. 

"Anti-Semitism" is therefore less a charge than a curse, an imprecation that
must be uttered formulaically. Being a "bogus predicate," to use Gilbert
Ryle's phrase, it has no real content, no functional equivalent in plain nouns
and verbs. Its power comes from the knowledge of its potential targets, the
gentiles, that powerful people are willing to back it up with material
penalties. 

< end quote >

The entire article can be found at the following site (among many other
others):

http://www.flinet.com/~politics/aipac/sobran2.htm

I encourage interested parties to visit this URL and read the entire article.

[little bonhomme hoisted by his own petard]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:57 EST 1997
Article: 144830 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!iagnet.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Date: 26 Oct 1997 02:35:27 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Message-ID: <01bce1b7$1f878090$55a1cdcd@odin>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144830

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce0e6$b504c5a0$a3a1cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Speaking of, I'm having trouble "seeing" many of the pics 
> > you posted on account of missing parts. 
> 
> Get a better rewsreader. However, if Anthony "beat 'em with 
> a pickaxe" Sabatini would like, I'll e-mail the images to him. 
> All he has to do is post his real e-mail address and I'll send 
> them....

Yeah, and open the door for every other Holo-clone (tm) fanatic itching to
mailbomb a 'heretic'. Sorry, happened once already.

> > Next time try to post the entire picture in one
> > message.
> 
> Next time Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini should get a better
> rewsreader. Attaching large files (images in this case) in a single
> segement to a post sometimes causes problems with some newsreaders. That's
> why having your newsreader segment them is better netiquette. But Anthony
> "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini  knew that, of course, right? He simply
> wanted to make _more_ excuses for not dealing with the evidence that
> L.Keller 1 was a homicidal gas chamber. 

You moron. I'm saying that some segments of your pictures aren't getting
through yet. This has nothing to do with my newsreader. Idiot.

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) "vaporized" with 'giant death ray']

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:57 EST 1997
Article: 144832 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin> <345284a9.3022250@news.jump.net> <01bcdf45$24289c70$550bcdcd@odin> <344f3d07.512111776@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce291$fa010f40$9b938bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 27 Oct 97 04:41:06 GMT
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Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<344f3d07.512111776@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
>  [snip]
> 
> >> >> >No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust occurred.
> >> >> 
> >> >> No one! How about Joe Bellinger? Andrew Allen? Mark Raven? 
> >> >> Michael the Nationalist? Matt Giwer? Phillips?
> >> 
> >> >I don't believe any of these people have claimed the Holocaust 
> >> >did not occur at all.
> >> 
> >> Phillips: "No gas chambers. No holocaust." 
> >
> >Ask him what he means by that. In any case, how about the rest?
> 
> I believe your claim was "No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust
> occurred." Yup, there it is above. 

First, you really should ask Mr. Phillips what he meant by that if you truly
are interested in truth and not the smearing you do.

Second, are you claiming that if someone doesn't believe or isn't too sure
about these gas chambers, but fully believes that large numbers of people were
mercilessly slaughtered by the Nazis, they are "deniers"?

> You posted some code and you understand the logic. 

What the Hell does this mean? Please explain.

> I only had to provide a case. Mark Van Alstine
> provided you with Matt Giwer. 

I think Giwer just says stuff to rile you kooks up. And, fools that you are,
you buy into it time and time again. But that's just _my_ "perception".  ;-)

> You get to work on the rest. I have better things to do. 

Like what?

> >> >> >The point of contention is the actual number of deaths. So 
> >> >> >far, there hasn't been a great deal of solid (and scientific!) 
> >> >> >evidence that leads to the 11 million figure.
> >> >> 
> >> >> This is your point of ignorance. 
> >> >
> >> >You keep saying that but you've yet to show any substantial 
> >> >proof for you magic numbers. Strange, that... Well, not really.
> >> 
> >> The discussion has been presented to you in other threads. 
> >
> >Not really. Which ones are you thinking referring to?
> 
> I see, you choose to play the fool.

What recent threads have discussed the evidence that amounts to 11 million?
Try to be specific instead of your usual insults and other tomfoolery. If you
can't show which ones -- and hopefully where -- then you are just lying again.

> >> In a typical denier fashion you, like Phillips, refuse to read the
> >> available material that is in your local library. 
> >
> >A lot of the more important stuff isn't readily available at many local
> >libraries, Curtis.
> 
> Very weak, Sabatini. They have something called interlibrary 
> loan. Try it, you'll like it. 

That's what I said *in the very next sentence! Calm down, dude! You're liable
to pop a blood vessel or something! Chill, dude.

> > I have to ask for inter-library loans.
> 
> Most people understand English and it is a valid request. 

Again, what in *tarnation* is the above supposed to mean? Dewd, like, speak
_American_, OK?

> It simply takes a little longer.

What? Inter-library loan?

> >What's worse is that you kooks post huge tracts of text, but 
> >when asked for a simple scan of the gas chamber plans the 
> >silence has been...deafening. Why is that, Curtis? Don't
> >you have those plans in front of you?
> 
> Some of them, yup. Van Pelts book ought to be in your library. Give it
> a shot. Either that or walk down to the local book store and order a
> copy of _Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present_. Better yet do an
> interlibrary loan request for Pressac's book. You can do it. You're a
> big boy. 

Which one has the stuff I'm looking for? Specifically, I wanna see
*engineering plans* and/or an operations manual. Tell which one's the best and
I'll find the book.

> >> In fact, you seem to have ignored some of the material that 
> >> has been posted in this group.
> >
> >Some stuff doesn't get through here. But what "material" are 
> >you referring to?
> 
> Gord McFee's stuff, Laura Finsten's stuff, and the stuff I presented
> you with. You even responded in your usual churlish manner.

Liar. None of that stuff showed how the 11 million figure was arrived at.

> >> >> You haven't read one iota of information concerning how these 
> >> >> numbers were gathered and you obviously do not care what 
> >> >> historians or scientists tell you. You reject, out of hand, solid 
> >> >> and scientific evidence that was used.
> >> >
> >> >You haven't a friggin' clue what I read or looked at and what I 
> >> >haven't. You're just a cheap smear artist and/or propagandist.
> >> 
> >> I have some idea what yu haven't read. If you had you would 
> >> have a basic understanding of the basics concerning this history.
> >
> >Really? Like what? Be specific.
> 
> You haven't read Hilberg or Reitlinger. Is that specific enough?

Yup. That's all I asked for. I'm glad you were finally able to answer in a
direct and clear fashion. Most of the time you kooks don't do that; you
obfuscate and play silly games.

> [snip]
> 
> >> >> >Thus, the term "denier" is a misnomer at best, an intentional 
> >> >> >smear (and possible strawman argument).
> >> >> 
> >> >> No it is nopt misused. It isn't misused at all in your case. 
> >> >
> >> >Define "denier", Curtis. Be specific and clear. Then we'll see just how 
> >> >much of an ass you and your fellow travelers really are. You dolts 
> >> >are cheap propagandists. You fool no one.
> >> 
> >> I have ad nauseum to you. I'm not going to do it over and over and 
> >> over. Read some of these other active threads and you will find my
> >> responses. Get back to me after to understand.
> >
> >I _have_ been reading your posts, Curtis. None of them contain your 
> >definition of "denier". Maybe these articles haven't reach here yet, so 
> >I'll wait a few. (BTW, it's not at Deja News either.)

Judging from your reply below, are we to assume that you were lying when you
claimed you have already answered the question? Or was this just a mistake of
some sort?

> Deniers are those who deny the holocaust and its facets to promote a
> political agenda of their own. It has nothing to do with history. They
> will play numbers games as you have. One of the tactics is to
> camouflage their goals. They will hide the fact that they are on a
> specific political and ideological agenda by stating that all they
> care about is historical truth.

Since you've called me a "denier", tell us all exactly what _my_ "political
agenda" is, Curtis. Don't forget to provide proof for any of your allegations.

> They want to uncover historical falsehoods. 

Yes... Did you forget a "don't" here or am I misunderstanding?

> Deniers typically play games with historiography by mixing
> truth in with outright distortions. Usually what the ideological goal
> is, according to Deborah Lipstadt is fascism and anti-Semitism. 

Really? What's my "ideological goal", Curtis? I thought I made it plain that I
am against greedy scumbag organizations who suck money off the Holocaust.

> This slick play with historical facts draws in the more ignorant 
> and pliable people. Some of that is happening here.

Well, all in all it certainly sounds like some monstrous conspiracy, Curtis.
Evil "fascists" plotting the downfall of our righteous democratic society,
twisting and corrupting youths in a vile bid at world domination and the
killing of Jews (or some such). Gee, sounds just as kooky as those ZOG
conspiracies you and you're pals laugh about... *Gasp!* Surely not?!?

LOL! But to be fair, I'm gonna ask you the same questions I asked John Morris
-- who decided not to answer -- about this YANC (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy).
Maybe you'll be brave enough to supply the answers. Here goes:

John Morris said: I know this will come as a shock to your sheltered
sensibilities, Anthony, but there actually are people who deny the Holocaust
and who falsify history in order to sustain their denial. I can think of no
other historical event which has an organized campaign of denial associated
with it.

To which I asked: So let's discuss that. What is the scope of this "campaign"?
How "organized" do you think they are? When you say they "deny the Holocaust",
what exactly to do mean? (Before answering that you'll have to give us a
definition of what "the Holocaust" encompasses.) And who is this "they"? A
conspiracy of some sort? Who are its members? What do they do to further their
cause and how? Is there one or more leaders involved? Who are these people?
Why do they do what they do? Are they succeeding? What effects will their
plot(s) entail (both short- and long-term)?

I'll be waiting for your reply, Curtis. Don't chicken out on us, OK?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:58:59 EST 1997
Article: 144836 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Sabatini - Hostilities, Civilities and Apologies (Was: Re: Grese on Trial)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
References: <341f3664$11$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <19970917103501.GAA19562@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3420926a$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3420d3a3.93365700@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc442$5ec73350$3856eccd@odin> <342234bc.183772769@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc510$42ef0300$7537eccd@odin> <3422b4ac.3188284@news.jump.net> <01bcc527$0487db20$687acdcd@odin> <342499ab.35048660@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc6a2$497dbcf0$daa1cdcd@odin> <34257dc6.1755354@news.uniserve.com> <34528bc3.5972379@news.hrc-counsel.net> <01bce1b2$8c7ad620$55a1cdcd@odin> <3453101B.88@concentric.net> <3452f180.53052991@news.uniserve.com> <3453d07a.9155667@news.hrc-counsel.net>
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Daniel Jonah Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz  wrote in
article <3453d07a.9155667@news.hrc-counsel.net>...
> On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:34:23 GMT, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
> wrote:
> 
> >Oh, dear!  Another one who pretends to know as much about me and my
> >life ......
> 
> >hro
> 
> Woman, I don't care what you think about Jews or the Holocaust and I
> don't give a hoot too much about your private life. I want you to post
> a real hot cheesecake photo of yourself in a 1940s style Betty Grable
> swimsuit and show all of these guys what hot stuff I know you are!
> Come on baby don't be shy. I want to see some skin!
> 
> 								Sincerely yours,
> 			     Daniel Jonah Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz

Mr. Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz, you are obviously insane judging from your
strange and utterly appalling request. Seek professional help ASAP.

In the meantime, and in the hopes of starting you along the road to recovery,
I'm enclosing a JPEG image of the kind of babes you should be interested in.
Once again, however, I will include a picture of the Ostroll so you can see
the difference.

Sincerely,

Anthony Sabatini



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end



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:59:00 EST 1997
Article: 144839 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Ostroll on the Web!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
References: <341f3664$11$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <19970917103501.GAA19562@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3420926a$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3420d3a3.93365700@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc442$5ec73350$3856eccd@odin> <342234bc.183772769@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc510$42ef0300$7537eccd@odin> <3422b4ac.3188284@news.jump.net> <01bcc527$0487db20$687acdcd@odin> <342499ab.35048660@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc6a2$497dbcf0$daa1cdcd@odin> <34257dc6.1755354@news.uniserve.com> <34528bc3.5972379@news.hrc-counsel.net> <01bce1b2$8c7ad620$55a1cdcd@odin> <3453101B.88@concentric.net> <3452f180.53052991@news.uniserve.com> <34543673.3550@concentric.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce295$46f6dfc0$9b938bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.147.155
Date: 27 Oct 97 05:04:42 GMT
Lines: 52
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.147.155
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144839 alt.politics.white-power:100099

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<34543673.3550@concentric.net>...
> I did it!  In response to the Ostroll's challenge, I visited its 
> website and _lived to tell the tale_!

No doubt with the aid of Zeus' enchanted shield, the Aegis, to protect you
>from  Medusa's gaze! (Usage note: works equally well against cockatrices and
basilisks, so it is definitely proof against the Ostroll's scornful gaze.)

> Actually, I only spent a minute there so I didn't get too 
> soiled.  

Lucky, for I fear even the mighty Aegis is not without it's limits!

> But a minute was enough to learn that the Ostroll shares 
> with John Morris the desire to squelch any and all speech 
> that doesn't agree with its prejudices.

As usual, look to a Jewish supremacist such as the Ostroll to find the dark
mutterings of censorship.

> It appears that she and some pals got an email message 
> from someone who took issue with her Holocaust fanaticism.  
> This traumatized the Ostroll so severly that it simply _had_ 
> to contact that person's ISP. Familiar, isn't it.  A grand total 
> of ONE email (no obscenity or profanity claimed) and off 
> they go, trying to squelch opposing speech.

For other examples of malicious attempts at censorship, including such
time-honored means as beatings, imprisonment and hefty fines, please visit:

http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html

> Quote from Ostroll on the Web:
> 
> "I, and other recipients, brought to the attention of his 
> access provider - with a request that the provider take 
> the appropriate steps to ensure that the behaviour is 
> not repeated. Sadly, but not surprisingly, his provider 
> has yet to acknowledge these requests - let alone take 
> any action."

The Ostroll seems _saddened_ because it's attempts at stifling someone else's
speech have been squashed! Miserable little &$@%#!

> Well, his provider is to be commended for standing up 
> to the hatemongers and other opponents of free speech.

Yes, but how soon before Rabbi Cooper and his thugs put an end to even that?

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:59:01 EST 1997
Article: 144841 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Sabatini Comes Through (was Re: Sabatini - Hostilities, Civilities and Apologies (Was: Re: Grese on Trial))
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
References: <01bce1b2$8c7ad620$55a1cdcd@odin> <3453d254.9630000@news.hrc-counsel.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce295$97b6b7f0$9b938bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.147.155
Date: 27 Oct 97 05:06:58 GMT
Lines: 39
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.147.155
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.white-power:100100 alt.politics.nationalism.white:79728 alt.revisionism:144841

Daniel Jonah Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz  wrote in
article <3453d254.9630000@news.hrc-counsel.net>...
> To: Anthony Sabatini
> Re: Hilary Ostrov and Beach Bunny Photograph- My choice of which
> one that I prefer to have as a stay over night guest.
> 
> Which One? Well this is like Let's Make a Deal. I take door number one
> Monty! Yes, I will stick with the librarian type! The beach bunny
> while she may like getting the big O really doesn't appreciate it that
> much because her youth tells her that another one is just around the
> corner waiting. On the other hand the librarian type is more
> appreciative and devoted. What did Ben Franklin once say about
> preferring the older woman and her charms over the young damsel? Yes,
> give Hilary a bottle of Crisco Cooking Oil and some handcuffs and let
> her secure me and she can ride the pony all day long! Yessir that
> picture makes me get a very painful boner!
> 
> I have never mentioned this to anyone but I am a tympanist (big drum)
> in the Houston Symphony Orchestra and the other night we were
> rehearsing some of Strauss. If you are familiar with Also Sprach
> Zarathustra then you know of the tympani finale. This selection is
> also the title piece to the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey. Well when the
> performance was over my colleagues turned to me and said they never
> had heard as much enthusiam for a piece than what they had just
> experienced. I had left my mallets at home and I knew that Jones Hall
> wouldn't have any and I was in a quandry over how I was to do the
> magnificent "drum roll." I then thought of the picture you posted and
> relying solely on memory I got a rock hard boner and used my organ to
> play the drum! I made symphony history and Telarc Records was there to
> record the whole performance! Now if only I can get Hilary to come my
> way! Thank you Mr. Sabatini- you're a real gent.
> 
> 							Sincerely yours,
> 			Daniel Jonah Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz

Sick, sick, sick!

Seek help!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:59:02 EST 1997
Article: 144846 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Again, how the numbers came to be (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.147.155
Date: 27 Oct 97 05:24:58 GMT
Lines: 173
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.147.155
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144846

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin>, on 10/26/97 
>    at 03:17 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> Anthony, you have "discovered" me again, after 
> ignoring me so long.  :-)

Sorry, but I certainly haven't been doing it on purpose! I _like_ talking with
you.

> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/23/97 
> > >    at 10:38 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> > > said:
> > > 
> > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 97 21:59:39, you wrote:
> 
> > [...]
> 
> > > > >In fact, if anyone is playing dumb, it is you in your highly
> > > > >selective memory of the history of that thread.  You seem 
> > > > >to have forgotten that I at least asked Anthony very early 
> > > > >on how many bones he needed to be satisfied; I kept 
> > > > >asking him what his extrapolation factor was.  He never 
> > > > >did answer that question.  
> 
> > This is absolutely incorrect. I answered your question many times.
> > Perhaps said answer was not to your satisfaction, but it _was_
> > "answered".
> 
> I am afraid it was not.  Very late in the game, you posted some
> contrived chart that was laughably unscientific.  Until then, you
> ignored my question, probably because you knew it was a loaded 
> question, which it was.  Your ignoring it was picked up be those 
> who understand the issue, but not ny you.

Heh. Let's not get into this, OK? I've said my piece about and so have you.
Let's just leave it at that.

> > > > I do not dispute what you say Gord as it is correct. 
> > > > However, Anthony did say that he didn't know. He then 
> > > > tried floating the idea of the bones of 7 million, I seem 
> > > > to remember. He admitted to total ignorance in the 
> > > > matter, combined with suspicion. He even gave an al 
> > > > fresco chart based on his half-formed and ignorant 
> > > > ideas so I think that he was genuine in his question.
> 
> > I was.
> 
> I have already said I accept your word on this.  I just wish you would
> stop with the "population analysis spiel" stuff.  It sure seems to belie
> your other statement.

I freely admit that I sometimes used 'charged' words, but I picked this habit
up from -- yup, you guessed it! -- the Nizkooks.

> > > My problem is and was his attitude, not his quest for 
> > > knowledge.  
> 
> > My "attitude" stems from months and months of dealing 
> > with underhanded Nizkooks. Questions are almost never 
> > answered in a direct and reasonable fashion. Take, for 
> > example, my current question regarding engineering plans 
> > and/or operations manuals for a gas chamber. Instead
> > of clearly stating that these do not, in fact, exist, I get the
> > runaround, pictures containing _other kinds_ of 'proof', all 
> > manner of stories, excuses and/or gibberish. Why not just 
> > say, "No, we don't have actual engineering plans, but 
> > what we do have is this..."? Why is that so difficult for 
> > Nizkooks? It gives people the impression that they are 
> > hiding something and/or being dishonest.
> 
> I can only speak for myself.  I am ignorant as hell about 
> that part of the research, so I stay out of it.  I normally 
> only insert myself in areas where I have at least a little 
> knowledge.

Great, and I appreciate your honesty. Too bad the Nizkooks don't follow your
example!  :-(

But read the threads. It's very interesting.

> > > His approach was basically: "show me the bones to prove 
> > > your 'magic' figure, and don't waste my time with population 
> > > analysis, or anything else, which I hereby dismiss as 
> > > unacceptable".  
> 
> > I don't understand what your problem here is. At the time I was
> > interested in the remains and nothing else. I didn't want to hear
> > about any other crap until the issue at hand was dealt with.
> 
> I am not starting that one again.

Good!  ;-)

> > > Apart from te fact that he was wrong about population 
> > > analysis (neither is it unreliable, nor is it the only "proof"), 
> 
> > This is a false statement. Mike Stein has clearly stated that 6
> > million figure for dead Jews comes from population analysis and that
> > we wasn't 100% certain about the others. It does stand to reason,
> > however, that the non-Jewish death toll was also established in a like
> > manner. As such, this 11 million figure does indeed come population
> > analysis.
> 
> I think you had better re-read Mike Stein's posts.  I think he saids
> that more than one method was used to establish the figures.  If he
> didn't, he should have.  

"Kurt, I realize you and Giwer have problems with reading above the fourth
grade level, but do try to pay attention here.  The six million number for
Jewish deaths was a rounded-up figure for the difference in prewar European
Jewish population and postwar European Jewish population which could not be
accounted for by emigration.  Since the figures were
derived based on countries, not camps, and population differences, not counted
deaths, adjusting the death toll for any one camp does not change a figure
which never was based on camps." - Mike Stein in article
<594k77$nbk@access5.digex.net>.

And then:

"The answer, BTW, is that the six million total was not computed by adding up
the totals for all camps, but rather by population loss." - Mike Stein in
article <5fc9qb$c8n@access4.digex.net>.

And again:

"I will merely add that the six million figure always was a rounded-up number
>from  5.7 or 5.8 million, I forget which.  Hilberg's lower numbers are computed
on a slightly different meaning of "victim" - the higher number was the net
loss in population after known emigration was accounted for, but not all of
those dead were specifically murdered as
Jews.  Some died in their beds of natural causes; some were anonymous war
casualties, either civilian or military, who died side by side with Gentiles."
- Mike Stein in article <5a4dne$4kb@access1.digex.net>.

And one more from article <5lohq1$r0e@access5.digex.net>:

< begin quote >

[Me:]
>It seems that more than one person here has claimed that the Holocaust death
>toll was reached by population analysis.

[Mike Stein:]
I believe that is only clearly true for the Jewish death toll.  The others are
a grab bag.  For example, homosexual death tolls would be hard to reach by
population analysis, but they make up a chunk of the non-Jewish part of the 12
million.

< end quote >

Now I'm not picking on Mike here, nor am I trying to show him up or anything.
It's simply that I trust something he says more than anything that comes out
of, say, Curtis' mouth.

> > > his attitude was one of purporting all the other evidence
> > > to be unacceptable and cooked up (no, he did not say it that clearly,
> > > but expressions like "the population analysis *spiel*", which he 
> > > used as recently as two days ago, leave little doubt what he means).
> 
> > "Spiel" is most appropriate given the situation. It is circumstantial
> > evidence; not clear and un-arguable.
> 
> If that is the way you mean it, OK.  That is not the way "spiel" is
> normally used.

Maybe, but it sounds _kewl_ that way.  ;-)

[.sig dropped off a tall building]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:59:03 EST 1997
Article: 144849 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk>  <3449e981.910912@news.demon.co.uk>  <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk> <3446c050$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk> <3452aff7$4$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce21e$c6cd70a0$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fbf1$18$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce29b$3ef6a110$9b938bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.147.155
Date: 27 Oct 97 05:47:28 GMT
Lines: 307
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144849

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3453fbf1$18$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce21e$c6cd70a0$d9b113cc@odin>, on 10/26/97 
>    at 02:56 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <3452aff7$4$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/24/97 
> > >    at 10:08 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> > > said:
> > > > Gord McFee  wrote:
> > > > >In <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/16/97 
> > > > >   at 10:44 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> > > > >said:
> > > > >> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> > [...]
> 
> > > > If someone makes an extreme remark which seems 
> > > > wildly exaggerated I tend to wish to correct it.
> > > 
> > > How so?  By snipping his words, which you just did?  By calling him a
> > > "smearing liar"?  Can you name *one* lie that Keren has told in this
> > > newsgroup, smearing or otherwise?
> 
> > His lie that I would throw the Nizkooks in prison *for disagreeing
> > with me.* This has been explained to him over and over to no avail. He
> > lies. Period.
> 
> I see.  You are answering for Mr. McLelland?  

No, I am putting my .02 worth because I am a favorite target of Keren's
twisting and vile distortions.

> What Keren said was not a lie.  

Maybe not _the first six hundred times_, but certainly after that. I've
explained it to him many times, but he just goes on and on as if nothing
happened. Thus, it is a willful lie.

> What he said was what you claim to be a misinterpretation of your
> words.  I must confess that the ordinary English meaning of the words
> you use and the way you used them, supports his interpretation.  

Not really, but I digress.

> That being said, and being familiar with your style of writing, 
> I expect you were trying to make a witty word play.

Quite right.

[...]

> > > > For me, I don't care what Matt Giwer has said about 
> > > > one of your friends - though I do care very much about 
> > > > what he said about my Monarch and the late Princess.
> > > 
> > > You don't care that the same meanness and vileness drove 
> > > him to say the hateful things about the Queen and the Princess 
> > > of Wales that drove him to say all the other horrible things he 
> > > said about the people that you erroneously describe as my 
> > > friends?  You *should* care.  That is the point.
> 
> > No, it is not.
> 
> I expected you would say that.

Just got off the phone with JoJo's Psychic Alliance, have you?  ;-)

> > > >I did not take these matters up in public with him as it 
> > > >was best to ignore them to reduce the amount of 
> > > >repetition. I wouldn't really care that Danny Keren does
> > > >a smear job on Anthony Sabatini with his partial quote,
> > > >or that he does the same thing for Matt Giwer except 
> > > >that he has done it to me a few times, when he was at 
> > > >least as inaccurate - and that annoyed me.
> > > 
> > > Well, I can tell you that Danny has not done it with Giwer.  
> 
> > Keren and Giwer are two of a kind. Yin and Yang.
> 
> So say you.

Well, yes, as a matter of fact. I just did!

> > > And Anthony should think before he writes, and there 
> > > wouldn't be stupid, juvenile things that people can quote 
> > > back at him.
> 
> > So you admit that he is deliberately smearing?
> 
> No.  Interpolating again?

Just asking.

> > > > I am quite happy to be attacked for what I do say 
> > > > _in context_ and may even deserve it at times, but I'll 
> > > > be damned if I will let someone cheat with selective 
> > > > quotations. Now Danny Keren CAN debate reasonably, 
> > > > and he does know a lot about the Holocaust. And when 
> > > > he does debate properly I am quite happy to do so with 
> > > > him, and interested in what he can tell me. You will 
> > > > note, as he should, that I always give him lead-ins to 
> > > > quoting things about the Holocaust. But when he gets 
> > > > into smear mode he deserves all he gets - as does 
> > > > _anyone else_ who does the same thing. Why is it 
> > > > necessary? Isn't the truth enough? I can't remember 
> > > > whether it was John Morris or Mike Stein who
> > > > said: "What kind of truth needs lies to support it?"
> > > 
> > > I don't remember anyone saying that.
> 
> > It was Mike Stein in response to Orest Slepokura's .sig: "What sort of
> > truth is it that needs protection?" as quoted from Auberon Waugh (The
> > London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992).
> 
> Thank you.  You are quite the researcher.
> 
> > > > >What Danny has said about Giwer is true in spades, 
> > > > >as you know if you would remove your Giwer-
> > > > >colored glasses.  Explaining someone is one thing and 
> > > > >defending him is another, but you seem to always 
> > > > >find a way to cast Giwer in the most favorable light 
> > > > >possible. 
> 
> > As you certain Nizkooks for their fellow travelers.
> 
> ?

Ugh! I really jumbled that one up! Sorry. It should read as:

As _you_ do with certain Nizkooks and their fellow travelers.

> > > > So the merest bit of detailed explanation - without 
> > > > much editorial comment, all of which is clearly 
> > > > flagged = the most favourable light possible?:-)
> 
> > Apparently.
> 
> > > Yes, because you also interpolate context and 
> > > motivation, neither of which you have the slightest 
> > > clue about in the example we have been discussing.
> 
> > Of course not. *snort* Only Gord McFee has any "clues".
> 
> Perhaps I should lend you a few?  You seem to have lost yours.

It's just that I don't appreciate when you talk like that. I don't expect it
>from  _you_, Gord.

> > > > >This is a guy who entered the newsgroup with the 
> > > > >stated purpose of destroying it, 
> > > 
> > > > I understood that that statement came after a few 
> > > > weeks or so of aggressive argument. But so what? Is 
> > > > it a sin to say that you want to destroy a newsgroup? 
> > > > Blimey!
> > > 
> > > Did I say it was a sin?  There are certain basic rules of 
> > > civility in a newsgroup, and one of them is not to destroy it.  
> 
> > The mere fact that you lend credence to such a statement speaks
> > volumes.
> 
> What volumes might those be?  You would agree with Giwer's intent to
> destroy the newsgroup?  

No, no, no. It shows how much reality you are willing to suspend in order to
cast Giwer in the worst light possible. After all, just how do you think Giwer
(or anybody else, for that matter) can "destroy this newsgroup"? By posting
the appropriate rmgroup message? Hint: most ISPs ignore these for the alt.
hierarchy anyway. It's just ridiculous that you take Giwer's threat seriously.

> Better be careful, Anthony, since it was the "revisionists" 
> who started the newsgroup, you're going to get them all 
> mad at you.

I keep hearing how it was anti-revisionists who did so to appease the mad
rabble of revisionists, Nazis, anti-Semites and their ilk. (BTW, I'm _still_
looking for this group's charter.)

> > > That's what Giwer tried to do and that's what the NA 
> > > slime tried to do.  You see, once again, you haven't a 
> > > clue of the context.  You haven't a clue about Giwer's 
> > > former "career" in Fidonet and *why* he had to pollute 
> > > Usenet.
> 
> > And it is rather apparent that _you_ "haven't a clue" when it comes to
> > Giwer. You folks are mad with hatred/disgust/contempt/whatever when it
> > comes to him, so rational conclusions cannot be expected.
> 
> Anthony, I have forgotten more about Giwer than you will ever know.  Do 
> the damned research--just once--before shooting off your yap.

Just above you praised my skills at this! (Another example follows below.) But
I did, in fact, read many, many (too many!) old threads between Giwer and you
guys. That's why I said what I did.

> > > > >who threatened death to at least three people I am 
> > > > >aware of, 
> > > 
> > > > Some of those "death threats" I do not consider death 
> > > > threats at all. That means the Joel Rosenberg warning, 
> > > > and the one against Danny Keren which was his: "If we 
> > > > were in combat together I would shoot you rather
> > > > than trust you in the same unit with a gun in your 
> > > > hand". I cannot by any stretch call that a death threat 
> > > > - and neither can you if you are honest. I don't know 
> > > > of other so-called death threats.
> > > 
> > > If I am honest?  Nice pre-condition you set up there, 
> > > Fergus.  I damn well can call them death threats, and 
> > > that's being very honest.
> 
> > Then can we expect you to likewise describe Van Alstine's wish that
> > Moran succumb to a stroke a "death threat"? If not, why not?
> 
> I don't know.  Repost it.

With pleasure:

"Hmm. Seems like the Moran(tm) forgot to take his thorazine again. Senility
does that. Not to mention that at his age his fits of insanity could give him
a stroke or something. One could hope." - Mark Van Alstine in article
.

> > > > >who harassed people privately, 
> > > 
> > > > By this I believe you refer to him sending an e-mail to 
> > > > Yale Edeiken in which he called the man a Jew - with I 
> > > > believe a copulatory expletive recommendation 
> > > > prepended. Gord, I like you, I think you are a decent, 
> > > > honest, pleasant chap, (honestly, no tongue in cheek 
> > > > at all I assure you) and because of that I ask you 
> > > > simply now: do you really consider that harassment? 
> > > > If I sent you an e-mail and called you a "Canadian git" 
> > > > would that be "anti-Canadianism ethnic intimidation" in
> > > > your mind? I doubt it.
> > > 
> > > No, you don't have a clue what I am talking about.  
> 
> > Remember, all the "clues" have been somehow acquired by 
> > Gord and his pals.
> 
> Nope, just me, as per *your* statement above.  Try to keep up, Anthony.

Sorry, I forgot.  ;-)

> > > The Edeiken affair is only one example.  But on that 
> > > score, it would indeed be harassment if you sent me 
> > > that kind of e-mail and I replied that I didn't want any
> > > more vulgar e-mail from you, and you sent more anyway.  
> > > That goes over the line from being a pest to harassing 
> > > someone.  And that is precisely what happened in the 
> > > Edeiken affair.  
> 
> > Ah, yes, the soft-spoken and angelic Yale Edeiken... *snort*
> 
> That wasn't the point, as I suspect you know.  The same principle would
> apply to you and to Giwer and to everyone.

Ah! But therein lies the crux of the matter! So often it seems to "apply"
_solely_ to me, Giwer and the rest.

> > > More than that, he was caught by
> > > several service providers doing exactly what I said above, 
> > > to the point he was booted from 5 in less than a year.  
> > > Or do you suppose it was all a Jewish plot?
> 
> > Depends. Who whined and complained to his ISPs and why?
> 
> Just about everyone if memory serves, including the providers
> themselves!  See, you haven't a clue about this.  Go back and check your
> beloved DejaNews before you pontificate.

I did. Don't force me to invoke the mighty and terrible name of Duke Nukem
once again!  ;-)

> > [...]
> 
> > > > If Judaism is a race, then why bother to use the magic 
> > > > "anti-Semitism" word when you have already said 
> > > > racism?
> > > 
> > > His racist remarks were addressed against blacks.
> 
> > So does the term "racist" mean contempt/hatred solely against blacks?
> 
> Did I say that?  Do you understand the difference?  Do you think blacks
> were the only people that Giwer insulted?  Keep up.

I think you misunderstood. I was referring to the terms "racism" and
"anti-Semitism".

> > > > This is not sophistry by me Gord, I just think that you
> > > > are doubling up.
> > > 
> > > Well, you are wrong old boy.  I was talking about two 
> > > different things. 
> 
> > Unfortunately for you, they are *not* "two different things".
> 
> Unfortunately for you, they are.  Acquire a dictionary and read it.

No, nope, nyet, nien! Same stuff, different packaging.

[.sig lashed]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:59:04 EST 1997
Article: 144850 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk>  <3449e981.910912@news.demon.co.uk>  <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk> <3446c050$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk> <01bce0d4$b52412a0$a3a1cdcd@odin> <3452b230$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce21f$5368c550$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fc66$19$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce29b$8517f7c0$9b938bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.147.155
Date: 27 Oct 97 05:49:24 GMT
Lines: 27
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!207.139.147.155
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144850

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3453fc66$19$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce21f$5368c550$d9b113cc@odin>, on 10/26/97 
>    at 03:00 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <3452b230$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <01bce0d4$b52412a0$a3a1cdcd@odin>, on 10/24/97 
> > >    at 11:34 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:

[...]

> > > > > >who wrote fake messages to himself and accused 
> > > > > >others--always Jews--of mailbombing him, 
> > > 
> > > > Do you any proof of this?
> > > 
> > > I'll answer, since it was I who said that, not Fergus.  Yes.
> 
> > Go on...
> 
> I beg your pardon?  I said "yes".

OK, wise guy.  ;-)  Show us this "proof". Out with it!

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:59:05 EST 1997
Article: 144851 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <01bce090$69841eb0$27718bcf@odin>  <01bce1af$6a7f1110$55a1cdcd@odin> <3453f518$15$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144851

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3453f518$15$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce1af$6a7f1110$55a1cdcd@odin>, on 10/26/97 
>    at 01:39 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > Daniel Keren  wrote in article
> > ...
> > > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > > 
> > > # His point was directed at Daniel Keren, for starters, and
> > > # was simply to explain to him how people can get angry when
> > > # he defends obvious frauds and liars such as Moshe Peer.
> > > 
> > > It is not obvious that he was a liar; he was 11-years-old
> > > when the war ended, and he probably did not understand
> > > what was happening to him. 
> 
> > Moshe Peer claimed he spent the last *19 YEARS* doing 'research' on
> > his book, and even then he claimed there was a gas chamber where none
> > was ever found. He claimed to have survived not one or two, but SIX
> > GASSINGS! He said he thought that children were perhaps immune to the
> > effects of the gas, but then went on to claim that his friends (all
> > roughly the same age) died around him in one of the gas chambers! He
> > goes around promoting his book which is filled with contradictions and
> > lies as above. And you are claiming he is not a lair?!?
> 
> Let's say he is a liar.  So what?

Two things:

1. Keren should stop claiming he isn't.

2. It just one example of the misuses the Holocaust is put to.

Nothing more sinister than that.

[.sig left behind]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 07:59:07 EST 1997
Article: 144852 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <344448cf.1033882@news.demon.co.uk>  <3449e981.910912@news.demon.co.uk>  <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk> <3446c050$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk> <3452aff7$4$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce21e$c6cd70a0$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fbf1$18$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144852

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3453fbf1$18$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce21e$c6cd70a0$d9b113cc@odin>, on 10/26/97 
>    at 02:56 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <3452aff7$4$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/24/97 
> > >    at 10:08 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> > > said:
> > > > Gord McFee  wrote:
> > > > >In <34498bb9.1194768@news.demon.co.uk>, on 10/16/97 
> > > > >   at 10:44 PM, redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland)
> > > > >said:
> > > > >> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> > [...]
> 
> > > > If someone makes an extreme remark which seems 
> > > > wildly exaggerated I tend to wish to correct it.
> > > 
> > > How so?  By snipping his words, which you just did?  By calling him a
> > > "smearing liar"?  Can you name *one* lie that Keren has told in this
> > > newsgroup, smearing or otherwise?
> 
> > His lie that I would throw the Nizkooks in prison *for disagreeing
> > with me.* This has been explained to him over and over to no avail. He
> > lies. Period.
> 
> I see.  You are answering for Mr. McLelland?  

No, I am putting my .02 worth because I am a favorite target of Keren's
twisting and vile distortions.

> What Keren said was not a lie.  

Maybe not _the first six hundred times_, but certainly after that. I've
explained it to him many times, but he just goes on and on as if nothing
happened. Thus, it is a willful lie.

> What he said was what you claim to be a misinterpretation of your
> words.  I must confess that the ordinary English meaning of the words
> you use and the way you used them, supports his interpretation.  

Not really, but I digress.

> That being said, and being familiar with your style of writing, 
> I expect you were trying to make a witty word play.

Quite right.

[...]

> > > > For me, I don't care what Matt Giwer has said about 
> > > > one of your friends - though I do care very much about 
> > > > what he said about my Monarch and the late Princess.
> > > 
> > > You don't care that the same meanness and vileness drove 
> > > him to say the hateful things about the Queen and the Princess 
> > > of Wales that drove him to say all the other horrible things he 
> > > said about the people that you erroneously describe as my 
> > > friends?  You *should* care.  That is the point.
> 
> > No, it is not.
> 
> I expected you would say that.

Just got off the phone with JoJo's Psychic Alliance, have you?  ;-)

> > > >I did not take these matters up in public with him as it 
> > > >was best to ignore them to reduce the amount of 
> > > >repetition. I wouldn't really care that Danny Keren does
> > > >a smear job on Anthony Sabatini with his partial quote,
> > > >or that he does the same thing for Matt Giwer except 
> > > >that he has done it to me a few times, when he was at 
> > > >least as inaccurate - and that annoyed me.
> > > 
> > > Well, I can tell you that Danny has not done it with Giwer.  
> 
> > Keren and Giwer are two of a kind. Yin and Yang.
> 
> So say you.

Well, yes, as a matter of fact. I just did!

> > > And Anthony should think before he writes, and there 
> > > wouldn't be stupid, juvenile things that people can quote 
> > > back at him.
> 
> > So you admit that he is deliberately smearing?
> 
> No.  Interpolating again?

Just asking.

> > > > I am quite happy to be attacked for what I do say 
> > > > _in context_ and may even deserve it at times, but I'll 
> > > > be damned if I will let someone cheat with selective 
> > > > quotations. Now Danny Keren CAN debate reasonably, 
> > > > and he does know a lot about the Holocaust. And when 
> > > > he does debate properly I am quite happy to do so with 
> > > > him, and interested in what he can tell me. You will 
> > > > note, as he should, that I always give him lead-ins to 
> > > > quoting things about the Holocaust. But when he gets 
> > > > into smear mode he deserves all he gets - as does 
> > > > _anyone else_ who does the same thing. Why is it 
> > > > necessary? Isn't the truth enough? I can't remember 
> > > > whether it was John Morris or Mike Stein who
> > > > said: "What kind of truth needs lies to support it?"
> > > 
> > > I don't remember anyone saying that.
> 
> > It was Mike Stein in response to Orest Slepokura's .sig: "What sort of
> > truth is it that needs protection?" as quoted from Auberon Waugh (The
> > London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992).
> 
> Thank you.  You are quite the researcher.
> 
> > > > >What Danny has said about Giwer is true in spades, 
> > > > >as you know if you would remove your Giwer-
> > > > >colored glasses.  Explaining someone is one thing and 
> > > > >defending him is another, but you seem to always 
> > > > >find a way to cast Giwer in the most favorable light 
> > > > >possible. 
> 
> > As you certain Nizkooks for their fellow travelers.
> 
> ?

Ugh! I really jumbled that one up! Sorry. It should read as:

As _you_ do with certain Nizkooks and their fellow travelers.

> > > > So the merest bit of detailed explanation - without 
> > > > much editorial comment, all of which is clearly 
> > > > flagged = the most favourable light possible?:-)
> 
> > Apparently.
> 
> > > Yes, because you also interpolate context and 
> > > motivation, neither of which you have the slightest 
> > > clue about in the example we have been discussing.
> 
> > Of course not. *snort* Only Gord McFee has any "clues".
> 
> Perhaps I should lend you a few?  You seem to have lost yours.

It's just that I don't appreciate when you talk like that. I don't expect it
>from  _you_, Gord.

> > > > >This is a guy who entered the newsgroup with the 
> > > > >stated purpose of destroying it, 
> > > 
> > > > I understood that that statement came after a few 
> > > > weeks or so of aggressive argument. But so what? Is 
> > > > it a sin to say that you want to destroy a newsgroup? 
> > > > Blimey!
> > > 
> > > Did I say it was a sin?  There are certain basic rules of 
> > > civility in a newsgroup, and one of them is not to destroy it.  
> 
> > The mere fact that you lend credence to such a statement speaks
> > volumes.
> 
> What volumes might those be?  You would agree with Giwer's intent to
> destroy the newsgroup?  

No, no, no. It shows how much reality you are willing to suspend in order to
cast Giwer in the worst light possible. After all, just how do you think Giwer
(or anybody else, for that matter) can "destroy this newsgroup"? By posting
the appropriate rmgroup message? Hint: most ISPs ignore these for the alt.
hierarchy anyway. It's just ridiculous that you take Giwer's threat seriously.

> Better be careful, Anthony, since it was the "revisionists" 
> who started the newsgroup, you're going to get them all 
> mad at you.

I keep hearing how it was anti-revisionists who did so to appease the mad
rabble of revisionists, Nazis, anti-Semites and their ilk. (BTW, I'm _still_
looking for this group's charter.)

> > > That's what Giwer tried to do and that's what the NA 
> > > slime tried to do.  You see, once again, you haven't a 
> > > clue of the context.  You haven't a clue about Giwer's 
> > > former "career" in Fidonet and *why* he had to pollute 
> > > Usenet.
> 
> > And it is rather apparent that _you_ "haven't a clue" when it comes to
> > Giwer. You folks are mad with hatred/disgust/contempt/whatever when it
> > comes to him, so rational conclusions cannot be expected.
> 
> Anthony, I have forgotten more about Giwer than you will ever know.  Do 
> the damned research--just once--before shooting off your yap.

Just above you praised my skills at this! (Another example follows below.) But
I did, in fact, read many, many (too many!) old threads between Giwer and you
guys. That's why I said what I did.

> > > > >who threatened death to at least three people I am 
> > > > >aware of, 
> > > 
> > > > Some of those "death threats" I do not consider death 
> > > > threats at all. That means the Joel Rosenberg warning, 
> > > > and the one against Danny Keren which was his: "If we 
> > > > were in combat together I would shoot you rather
> > > > than trust you in the same unit with a gun in your 
> > > > hand". I cannot by any stretch call that a death threat 
> > > > - and neither can you if you are honest. I don't know 
> > > > of other so-called death threats.
> > > 
> > > If I am honest?  Nice pre-condition you set up there, 
> > > Fergus.  I damn well can call them death threats, and 
> > > that's being very honest.
> 
> > Then can we expect you to likewise describe Van Alstine's wish that
> > Moran succumb to a stroke a "death threat"? If not, why not?
> 
> I don't know.  Repost it.

With pleasure:

"Hmm. Seems like the Moran(tm) forgot to take his thorazine again. Senility
does that. Not to mention that at his age his fits of insanity could give him
a stroke or something. One could hope." - Mark Van Alstine in article
.

> > > > >who harassed people privately, 
> > > 
> > > > By this I believe you refer to him sending an e-mail to 
> > > > Yale Edeiken in which he called the man a Jew - with I 
> > > > believe a copulatory expletive recommendation 
> > > > prepended. Gord, I like you, I think you are a decent, 
> > > > honest, pleasant chap, (honestly, no tongue in cheek 
> > > > at all I assure you) and because of that I ask you 
> > > > simply now: do you really consider that harassment? 
> > > > If I sent you an e-mail and called you a "Canadian git" 
> > > > would that be "anti-Canadianism ethnic intimidation" in
> > > > your mind? I doubt it.
> > > 
> > > No, you don't have a clue what I am talking about.  
> 
> > Remember, all the "clues" have been somehow acquired by 
> > Gord and his pals.
> 
> Nope, just me, as per *your* statement above.  Try to keep up, Anthony.

Sorry, I forgot.  ;-)

> > > The Edeiken affair is only one example.  But on that 
> > > score, it would indeed be harassment if you sent me 
> > > that kind of e-mail and I replied that I didn't want any
> > > more vulgar e-mail from you, and you sent more anyway.  
> > > That goes over the line from being a pest to harassing 
> > > someone.  And that is precisely what happened in the 
> > > Edeiken affair.  
> 
> > Ah, yes, the soft-spoken and angelic Yale Edeiken... *snort*
> 
> That wasn't the point, as I suspect you know.  The same principle would
> apply to you and to Giwer and to everyone.

Ah! But therein lies the crux of the matter! So often it seems to "apply"
_solely_ to me, Giwer and the rest.

> > > More than that, he was caught by
> > > several service providers doing exactly what I said above, 
> > > to the point he was booted from 5 in less than a year.  
> > > Or do you suppose it was all a Jewish plot?
> 
> > Depends. Who whined and complained to his ISPs and why?
> 
> Just about everyone if memory serves, including the providers
> themselves!  See, you haven't a clue about this.  Go back and check your
> beloved DejaNews before you pontificate.

I did. Don't force me to invoke the mighty and terrible name of Duke Nukem
once again!  ;-)

> > [...]
> 
> > > > If Judaism is a race, then why bother to use the magic 
> > > > "anti-Semitism" word when you have already said 
> > > > racism?
> > > 
> > > His racist remarks were addressed against blacks.
> 
> > So does the term "racist" mean contempt/hatred solely against blacks?
> 
> Did I say that?  Do you understand the difference?  Do you think blacks
> were the only people that Giwer insulted?  Keep up.

I think you misunderstood. I was referring to the terms "racism" and
"anti-Semitism".

> > > > This is not sophistry by me Gord, I just think that you
> > > > are doubling up.
> > > 
> > > Well, you are wrong old boy.  I was talking about two 
> > > different things. 
> 
> > Unfortunately for you, they are *not* "two different things".
> 
> Unfortunately for you, they are.  Acquire a dictionary and read it.

No, nope, nyet, nien! Same stuff, different packaging.

[.sig lashed]


From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:01 EST 1997
Article: 144882 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Date: 27 Oct 1997 15:43:15 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Message-ID: <01bce2ee$56e45670$80b113cc@odin>
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <01bce1ad$99b5edc0$55a1cdcd@odin>  <01bce281$ca925ee0$9b938bcf@odin> 
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144882

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> # I have explained it to you countless times, but instead you
> # choose to continue your smearing. I told you how someone was
> # asking what your Nizkooks would do with the all the files you
> # collect on people posting here, if you would "interrogate" us
> # like the Commies used to. I replied, tongue in cheek, making
> # a play on words on "interrogate". But you never listen, Keren. 
> 
> This is simply not a valid explanation for your statement 

Sez you.

> that, if you could, you would throw the "Nizkooks" in jail. 
> It is a lame and pathetic excuse.

No, it is not. It is an explanation, and a far more plausible one that the one
given by you while defending that lying charlatan, Moshe Peer.

> Same for your statement that it "may be fail payment" to beat
> Dr. John Morris and myself with a pick axe handle. Your excuses
> for this violent and hateful statement don't hold water. 

Did I say anything about beating either of you? No, Morris asked a question
and I gave a possible answer; just like _you_ did with Peer.

> # You keep smearing. 
> 
> I am not smearing. I am quoting your words.

That you smear willfully is apparent. Others have also complained about your
smearing.

> # Don't worry, though, it's all gonna come back to you. 
> # In spades.
> 
> You have that pick axe handle under your bed, Anthony 
> my boy? 

And if I do?

> You're gonna beat me up, Anthony my boy? 

I told you before I would not waste my time. But I am firm believer in what
goes around comes around, so it is only a matter of time before the Norns see
to your wicked ways.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:02 EST 1997
Article: 144890 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <01bce090$69841eb0$27718bcf@odin> <3450d790.617225006@news.jump.net> <346377b0.4368114@news.demon.co.uk> <34529e87.1566601@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce2f7$c5547fa0$80b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144890

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<34529e87.1566601@news.jump.net>...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> 
> >mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >
> >>"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >>
> >>>Do you understand now?
> >>
> >>Yes, I understand that you are a denier.
> >>
> >Well I understand that he must have said more than the one line. With
> >your editing and lack of "snip" remarks you make it look as if he is
> >saying that he is a denier and you are merely agreeing with him. Is
> >that a form of defamation?
> 
> Fergus, it's the convergence of evidence of his posts. It has nothing
> to do with what was snipped.

LOL! Curtis uses one of his favorite catch-phrases -- i.e., the nebulous
"convergence of evidence" -- to show just how morally bankrupt he really is.

You're a real fruit loop, Curtis! And a lying, smearing hypocrite.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:03 EST 1997
Article: 144891 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Details on a diabolical conspiracy here (was: Phillips vs Mock III)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce2f5$12faea30$80b113cc@odin>
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Date: 27 Oct 97 16:30:28 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144891

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<345599b9.2636244@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><344f3d07.512111776@news.jump.net>...
> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> 
> >>  [snip]
> >> 
> >> >> >> >No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust occurred.
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> No one! How about Joe Bellinger? Andrew Allen? Mark Raven? 
> >> >> >> Michael the Nationalist? Matt Giwer? Phillips?
> >> >> 
> >> >> >I don't believe any of these people have claimed the Holocaust 
> >> >> >did not occur at all.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Phillips: "No gas chambers. No holocaust." 
> >> >
> >> >Ask him what he means by that. In any case, how about the rest?
> >> 
> >> I believe your claim was "No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust
> >> occurred." Yup, there it is above. 
> >
> >First, you really should ask Mr. Phillips what he meant by that if you
truly
> >are interested in truth and not the smearing you do.
> 
> What does it mean? Your kidding, right, Anthony? It's pretty plain to
> me what he meant. There are very few words there Anthony.

That's exactly why you should be suspicious, or at least curious in the very
least. Instead, you show very clearly you are not interested in discovering
the truth of the matter; you are content to merely insult and play Nizkook
games.

> >> >> Phillips: "No gas chambers. No holocaust." 
> 
> Still looks pretty clear.

Of course! For someone with preconceived and bias ideas such you, it is very
apparent!

> >Second, are you claiming that if someone doesn't believe 
> >or isn't too sure about these gas chambers,
> 
> Someone, like you, who refuses to analyze the information 
> available at the local book lending institution? 

I never refused anything, Curtis. In fact, it has been you and your merry band
of misfits who have consistently refused to talk in a clear manner. Worse, you
clowns have lied and continue to lie about what is available (such as
engineering plans for gas chambers).

> Isn't sure? Don't pull my leg here, Sabatini. 

I have no intention of "pulling your leg", Curtis. I wasn't even referring to
myself above. But you just used it as a springboard to further your smearing
based on your biases.

> Neither one of you have a clue about the basic research into 
> this subject and the recent reaction to Mark's stuff makes it 
> pretty clear that you two have no intention of even trying to
> understand the evidence.

This is another lie. I asked for a very specific piece of evidence; i.e.,
engineering plans and/or an operations manual for a gas chamber. You liars
claimed you had this, but when pressed, you were shown up. You haven't got any
of this stuff, Curtis. You guys have some _other_ bits of evidence, but you
lied about having any engineering plans. That makes you dolts liars.

> > but fully believes that large numbers of people were
> >mercilessly slaughtered by the Nazis, they are "deniers"?
> 
> Yes.

Good. That's what I like to see from your kooks, Curtis; honest and straight
answers. I'm tired of your silly Nizkooks games.

> [snip]
> 
> >> You get to work on the rest. I have better things to do. 
> >
> >Like what?
> 
> Like, live my life to the fullest.

Oh.

> [snipped Sabatini PRETENDING there haven't been any threrads 
> with him discussing the 11-12 million figure. I'm not going to play 
> this idiotic game.]

Riiight. IOW, you know damn well that no one was discussing any evidence of
how the 11 million figures was added up except population analysis in those
threads. You're a liar, Curtis. And a hypocrite.

> >> Most people understand English and it is a valid request. 
> >
> >Again, what in *tarnation* is the above supposed to mean? Dewd, 
> >like, speak _American_, OK?
> >
> >> It simply takes a little longer.
> >
> >What? Inter-library loan?
> 
> Yes, it takes longer to get book than if they had it on the shelves.
> You haven't been to a library have you?

I have many times. I was just trying to clear up your gibberish above. You
see, unlike you I ask for a clarification before smearing, Curtis. You and
your Nizkook pals hardly ever bother; you just start smearing at the slightest
provocation and without asking the victim to explain. That's because you kooks
are more interested in smearing people instead of anything else. That's also
one of the things that makes you lot 'Nizkooks'.

> >> >What's worse is that you kooks post huge tracts of text, but 
> >> >when asked for a simple scan of the gas chamber plans the 
> >> >silence has been...deafening. Why is that, Curtis? Don't
> >> >you have those plans in front of you?
> >> 
> >> Some of them, yup. Van Pelts book ought to be in your library. 
> >> Give it a shot. Either that or walk down to the local book store 
> >> and order a copy of _Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present_. Better 
> >> yet do an interlibrary loan request for Pressac's book. You can 
> >> do it. You're a big boy. 
> >
> >Which one has the stuff I'm looking for? Specifically, I wanna see
> >*engineering plans* and/or an operations manual. Tell which one's
> > the best and I'll find the book.
> 
> You are not going to find something SO completely specific and I 
> told you why in another thread. I'm done telliong you why. You 
> want to play this denier game, you can declare victory and play 
> all by yourself.

Finally I get one of you Nizkooks to speak plainly and truthfully! Before
this, you were all protesting and stamping your feet about how engineering
plans for a gas chamber _did_ exist and how you kooks had 'em. Now, you
finally admit that you don't really have that, but you have something _else_
instead. It took a while, but it eventually happened. I am pleased.

> >> >> In fact, you seem to have ignored some of the material 
> >> >> that has been posted in this group.
> >> >
> >> >Some stuff doesn't get through here. But what "material" 
> >> >are you referring to?
> >> 
> >> Gord McFee's stuff, Laura Finsten's stuff, and the stuff I presented
> >> you with. You even responded in your usual churlish manner.
> >
> >Liar. None of that stuff showed how the 11 million figure was arrived at.
> 
> You were given the citations and the places to look. You chose to
> start fights instead. Showing the readers of this group what a denier
> fool you are.

No, you're lying again. People were explain why you kooks don't have anywhere
near a large size of ashes and remains. They didn't explain how the magic 11
million number came to be.

[...]

> >> >> I have some idea what yu haven't read. If you had 
> >> >> you would  have a basic understanding of the basics 
> >> >> concerning this history.
> >> >
> >> >Really? Like what? Be specific.
> >> 
> >> You haven't read Hilberg or Reitlinger. Is that specific enough?
> >
> >Yup. That's all I asked for. I'm glad you were finally able to 
> >answer in a direct and clear fashion. Most of the time you kooks 
> >don't do that; you obfuscate and play silly games.
> 
> I see I was correct in my assumption about you not having the basics.

No, you are only correct in that I haven't read anything of those two other
than extracts. Don't get too uppity, Curtis. It won't do you any good.

[...]

> >> >> >Define "denier", Curtis. Be specific and clear. Then 
> >> >> >we'll see just how much of an ass you and your fellow 
> >> >> >travelers really are. You dolts are cheap 
> >> >> >propagandists. You fool no one.
> >> >> 
> >> >> I have ad nauseum to you. I'm not going to do it over 
> >> >> and over and over. Read some of these other active 
> >> >> threads and you will find my responses. Get back to me 
> >> >> after to understand.
> >> >
> >> >I _have_ been reading your posts, Curtis. None of them 
> >> >contain your definition of "denier". Maybe these articles 
> >> >haven't reach here yet, so I'll wait a few. (BTW, it's not 
> >> >at Deja News either.)
> >
> >Judging from your reply below, are we to assume that you 
> >were lying when you claimed you have already answered the 
> >question? Or was this just a mistake of some sort?
> 
> I'm answering it again for those with short memories like yourself.

You just can't admit the truth, can you, Curtis?

> >> Deniers are those who deny the holocaust and its facets 
> >> to promote a political agenda of their own. It has nothing 
> >> to do with history. They will play numbers games as you 
> >> have. One of the tactics is to camouflage their goals. They 
> >> will hide the fact that they are on a specific political and 
> >> ideological agenda by stating that all they care about is 
> >> historical truth.
> >
> >Since you've called me a "denier", tell us all exactly what 
> >_my_ "political agenda" is, Curtis. Don't forget to provide 
> >proof for any of your allegations.
> 
> I can only assume what YOUR political agenda is. 

Well, that what I asked for, Curtis.

> I suspect it is much as I've already described. 

What, you mean raise a Nazi party from the ashes, phoenix-like, in a mad bid
to act out Holocaust II: The Sequel? You're a pretty kooky guy, Curtis.

> Frankly, I don't care. I don't much care about you. 

That's OK. I don't ask that you do, Curtis. All I ask is that you kooks answer
questions -- if you are so inclined -- in a clear, direct and honest fashion.
You clowns don't do that, Curtis, and I got tired of watching you play your
games.

> I only know that you act and behave like a denier. 

That's because you're a paranoid kook. But that's stating the obvious.

> You even pretend you are not. 

Image that! People actually protesting their innocence! Why, next thing you
know and these people will start demanding for proof, too! LOL! You're a real
killer, Curtis; you always find new and innovative ways of cracking me up!

> I'm not going to pretend with you. 

No, you are too busy "pretending" that their are evil Nazis (tm), vile
anti-Semites (tm) and diabolical Deniers (tm) all around you. But that's OK
seeing as how good you are at it.

> I'm going to label your on-line personality as I see it.

Yes, you will continue smearing. Don't worry, though! Sooner or later it's
gonna back to you. Hopefully I'll be there to see it so I can have a big,
hearty laugh.

> >> They want to uncover historical falsehoods. 
> >
> >Yes... Did you forget a "don't" here or am I misunderstanding?
> 
> No I did not forget the don't. This is a claim they make.

Care to explain? I'm a little unclear as to what you're trying to say.

> >> Deniers typically play games with historiography by mixing
> >> truth in with outright distortions. Usually what the ideological 
> >> goal is, according to Deborah Lipstadt is fascism and 
> >> anti-Semitism. 
> >
> >Really? What's my "ideological goal", Curtis? I thought I made it 
> >plain that I am against greedy scumbag organizations who suck 
> >money off the Holocaust.
> 
> That's what you pretend, yes. Your actions of late suggest something
> different. 

LOL! I keep telling my friends about you, Curtis, but most of 'em don't
believe me. They think I made you up!

> >> This slick play with historical facts draws in the more ignorant 
> >> and pliable people. Some of that is happening here.
> >
> >Well, all in all it certainly sounds like some monstrous conspiracy, 
> >Curtis. Evil "fascists" plotting the downfall of our righteous 
> >democratic society, twisting and corrupting youths in a vile bid at 
> >world domination and the killing of Jews (or some such). Gee, 
> >sounds just as kooky as those ZOG conspiracies you and you're 
> >pals laugh about... *Gasp!* Surely not?!?
> >
> >LOL! But to be fair, I'm gonna ask you the same questions I 
> >asked John Morris -- who decided not to answer -- about this 
> >YANC (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy). Maybe you'll be brave 
> >enough to supply the answers. Here goes:
> >
> >John Morris said: I know this will come as a shock to your 
> >sheltered sensibilities, Anthony, but there actually are people 
> >who deny the Holocaust and who falsify history in order to 
> >sustain their denial. I can think of no other historical event 
> >which has an organized campaign of denial associated
> >with it.
> >
> >To which I asked: So let's discuss that. What is the scope of 
> >this "campaign"?
> 
> The scope runs from Neo-Nazis to skinheads to the KKK. 

I see. Anyone else?

> >How "organized" do you think they are?
> 
> They have lots of money and fight over it. Read about the 
> recent Carto business and the battle over Edison's money.

At the IHR Web site or the Nizkult? Do you have a specific document in
mind...?

> >When you say they "deny the Holocaust", what exactly to 
> > do mean? (Before answering that you'll have to give us a
> >definition of what "the Holocaust" encompasses.)
> 
> I've defined this for you in the past, Sabatini.

No, you defined it in the previous post. In any case, you must remember these
questions were originally directed at John Morris.

> > And who is this "they"?
> 
> See above.

Well, can you be specific?

> > A conspiracy of some sort?
> 
> Just hate, Sabatini. The kind of hate that you claim to only have
> against Jewish support groups.

I never claimed to "hate" those losers, Curtis. I just despise them as any
healthy person should view good-for-nothing parasites.

But I take you're saying this _is_, if fact, some nefarious conspiracy?

> > Who are its members?
> 
> They could be your neighbor next door. They are any man.

Gee, these guys must have the civilized world shaking in their boots! Are they
anything like S.P.E.C.T.R.E. from the James Bond movies?

> >What do they do to further their cause and how?
> 
> They do what you do, Sabatini.

Oh?

> > Is there one or more leaders involved? Who are these people?
> 
> Read up on the denial groups and get back to me. Start with Deborah
> Lipstadt's _Denying the Holocaust_.

So she talks about this massive conspiracy, too, does she? Maybe it might be
worth reading her book after all.

> >Why do they do what they do?
> 
> Explained above. If you want a book about it, I gave you 
> one to start with.

So Lipstadt explains the inner workings of this malefic cabal, eh?

> > Are they succeeding?
> 
> The biggies ran from this ng? I'd say no. That's my opinion. 
> They do make gains in various quarters. I'm not tuned into 
> the statiistics on their gains. 

Does Lipstadt cite any statistics about this?

> My concern is mostly historical.

No it's not. You're interested in smearing people, Curtis. Remember, you
claimed that there aren't enough (or any) "historical discussions" taking
place here. As such, the only other reason you're hear is to smear and get
your jollies.

> >What effects will their plot(s) entail (both short- and long-term)?
> 
> You tell me.

How should _I_ know? I haven't the foggiest about these malevolent
conspirators. Are they like ZOG or the (legendary) Illuminati? Or are they
more akin to the Free Masons and the Knights Templar?

> >I'll be waiting for your reply, Curtis. Don't chicken out on us, OK?
> 
> You'll probably say I did. 

There you go again showing your biases and preconceived notions. Unlike some
of your kooky pals, I won't run around claiming you didn't answer me just
because I may or may not be completely satisfied with your reply. I leave that
game for Nizkooks.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:05 EST 1997
Article: 144936 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Details on a diabolical conspiracy here (was: Phillips vs Mock III)
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Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3455cc66.15610971@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> Anthony "denier" Sabatini changes threads in attempt to avoid what
> went on in the original thread.

The Curtis-Clone whines again about "thread drift". Seems he does that every
time things aren't going his way.

In any case, Curtis, how am I "attempt[ing] to avoid what went on in the
original thread" since I have quoted everything? Never mind the fact that it
was an error. I originally replied within the thread but the message doesn't
seems to have gotten through. Thus, *the previous* message you replied to is
actually a *re-post*.

Just chill out, Curtis. How many times have I gotta tell you this?

> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><345599b9.2636244@news.jump.net>...
> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> 
> >> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> >> ><344f3d07.512111776@news.jump.net>...
> >> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> >> 
> >> >>  [snip]
> >> >> 
> >> >> >> >> >No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust occurred.
> >> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> >> No one! How about Joe Bellinger? Andrew Allen? Mark Raven? 
> >> >> >> >> Michael the Nationalist? Matt Giwer? Phillips?
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> >I don't believe any of these people have claimed the Holocaust 
> >> >> >> >did not occur at all.
> >> >> >> 
> 
> This is the statement Sabatini seems not to understand.

No, this is the statement that Curtis *refuses* to investigate simply because
it falls in line with his preconceived notions and biases.

> >> >> >> Phillips: "No gas chambers. No holocaust." 
> 
> >> >> >Ask him what he means by that. In any case, how 
> >> >> >about the rest?
> >> >> 
> >> >> I believe your claim was "No one here seriously doubts 
> >> >> the Holocaust occurred." Yup, there it is above. 

The following is what Curtis adamantly refuses to do:

> >> >First, you really should ask Mr. Phillips what he meant by 
> >> >that if you truly are interested in truth and not the smearing 
> >> >you do.
> >> 
> >> What does it mean? Your kidding, right, Anthony? It's pretty 
> >> plain to me what he meant. There are very few words there 
> >> Anthony.
> >
> >That's exactly why you should be suspicious, or at least curious 
> >in the very least.
> 
> Nothing to be suspicious about. Greg Raven says the same thing.
> Phillips says the same thing. It's pretty clear what they mean.

Yup. That's Curtis, all right: Staunch Defender of Truth and Explorer of
Mysteries. He just can't be bothered to explore the situation fully even
though he hypocritical demands this of others.

> >Instead, you show very clearly you are not interested in 
> >discovering the truth of the matter; you are content to merely 
> >insult and play Nizkook games.
> 
> I'm the one refusing to go to the library to check this material out,
> Sabatini. 

If you say so.

> You and Phillips both prefer to sit on your cans and do
> nothing at all. So who is really NOT interested in finding the truth
> of the matter, Sabatini? I suggest it is you and Phillips (and
> others).

You "suggest" *lots* of things, Curtis, but that doesn't anchor them to
reality anymore than if you "suggested" you were abducted by Martians.

> I rest my case.

Of course you do! You haven't a goddamn leg to stand on so you will simply
declare victory and run away! No one is surprised, least of all long-time
readers of Curtis-Crap (tm).

> >> >> >> Phillips: "No gas chambers. No holocaust." 
> >> 
> >> Still looks pretty clear.
> >
> >Of course! For someone with preconceived and bias ideas 
> >such you, it is very apparent!
> 
> Sounds like a empty diversion by a denier to me.

Curtis proves my suspicions for me. I am pleased.

> >> >Second, are you claiming that if someone doesn't believe 
> >> >or isn't too sure about these gas chambers,
> >> 
> >> Someone, like you, who refuses to analyze the information 
> >> available at the local book lending institution? 
> >
> >I never refused anything, Curtis. In fact, it has been you and 
> >your merry band of misfits who have consistently refused to 
> >talk in a clear manner. Worse, you clowns have lied and 
> >continue to lie about what is available (such as engineering 
> >plans for gas chambers).
> 
> Why do you continue to insist on something that doesn't exist in the
> form that you want it? Why, Anthony? 

I'm doing nothing of the sort. Perhaps _you_ see it that way in your fevered
imaginings, but once again _this_ space-time continuum remains largely
unaffected. But do prattle on.

> Does this mean the holocaust isn't real for you Sabatini the 
> great denier? Why does the denier Sabatini ignore the history 
> of the German concern for secrecy? Because he's a denier 
> and is very obvious about it.

No, because I want you Nizkooks to answer clearly and directly without your
usual games.

> >> Isn't sure? Don't pull my leg here, Sabatini. 
> >
> >I have no intention of "pulling your leg", Curtis. I wasn't 
> >even referring to myself above. But you just used it as a 
> >springboard to further your smearing based on your biases.
> 
> If you think it is a smear then don't act like those you despise. Got
> it? 

Sure. If you don't like the way you are being treated, don't do it yourself.
Got it?

> >> Neither one of you have a clue about the basic research into 
> >> this subject and the recent reaction to Mark's stuff makes it 
> >> pretty clear that you two have no intention of even trying to
> >> understand the evidence.
> >
> >This is another lie. I asked for a very specific piece of evidence; i.e.,
> 
> That's NOT waht I said. You know there was no such animal. 

No, I wasn't not sure either way.

> Yet you continue to behave like a spoiled brat and continue 
> to think you are actually making points. 

The only "point" I'm making here is to show you Nizkooks up for what you
really are: i.e., full of hot air (to be charitable).

> Only a moron wouldn't realize that what was offerred you 
> was just the beginning of the evidence. 

Only a moron wouldn't realize that I was specifically referring to engineering
plans. I said nothing of _other_ types of evidence you may present.

> I said above that you have no clue about the basic research 
> done in this field. IF you did you wouldn't ask for what wasn't 
> in existence unless you were a denier. 

No, this is a reality only in Niz-cuckoo-land. I'll ask questions that I feel
need to be asked. You are likewise free to ask what _you_ deem is necessary
and/or interesting. You are not in charge here. Keep that fact firmly in mind.

> If you didn't know then you would try to understand the
> information instead of crying like you do that you weren't given
> exactly what you asked for. 

You again fail to understand my line of questioning. I want to make sure what
kind of evidence you *don't* have so I can then see what remains. Your dislike
or disdain for this method doesn't interest me, BTW, so spare your keyboard
the wear and tear.

> By doing what you are doing here makes you
> a typical denier and a stupid one as well. 

Not really, but you kooks certainly showed us all what you're made of: i.e.,
lemon juice and other, less describable substances. (Again I am being generous
here.)

> >engineering plans and/or an operations manual for a gas 
> >chamber. You liars claimed you had this,
> 
> We do 

Liar. You do not. But perhaps if you shout it out long enough, loudly enough,
it will somehow magically come true. Then again, perhaps not.

> but we can't make the raving blind like you see. And you 
> know what, we never will.

Truth to tell you morons haven't been able to make _anyone_ "see" _anything_
because you simply haven't got the undeniable, unarguable evidence. Thus, you
are left with secondary and tertiary material.

> >but when pressed, you were shown up. You haven't got any
> >of this stuff, Curtis. You guys have some _other_ bits of 
> >evidence, but you lied about having any engineering plans. 
> >That makes you dolts liars.
> 
> We have the stuff but it takes a little intellectual curiousity to
> understand it. You have shown that you have none of that stuff. 

IOW, you lie again. You do *not*, in fact, have any real engineering plans or
operations manuals at all; what you _do_ have is other forms of evidence.
There's a difference, Curtis. That you fail to ascertain this -- willfully or
not -- just goes to show your general dishonesty.

> >> > but fully believes that large numbers of people were
> >> >mercilessly slaughtered by the Nazis, they are "deniers"?
> >> 
> >> Yes.
> >
> >Good. That's what I like to see from your kooks, Curtis; honest 
> >and straight answers. I'm tired of your silly Nizkooks games.
> 
> I call them as I see them.

Yes, we are well aware that your main criteria for spouting rubbish is your
much-vaunted "perceptions". In the meantime, reality stretches and...yawns.

> >> [snipped Sabatini PRETENDING there haven't been any threrads 
> >> with him discussing the 11-12 million figure. I'm not going to play 
> >> this idiotic game.]
> >
> >Riiight. IOW, you know damn well that no one was discussing any 
> >evidence of how the 11 million figures was added up except 
> >population analysis in those threads. You're a liar, Curtis. And 
> >a hypocrite.
> 
> Another moronic claim. 

IOW, direct hit!

> People told you over and over that the remains were used. 
> They told you that train records were used. 

These "train records" of yours work the exact same way as your magical
population analysis. That is, they subtract what comes out from what went in.
In a strange twist of irony, it is amusing that while Curtis slavishly accepts
such methods to 'prove' things he likes, he rants and raves when I use a
similar technique with all this ballyhoo about engineering plans for gas
chambers!

> They told you that survivor testimony was used. 

Yes, "survivor testimony" is the one thing I will *never* claim you folks
don't have.

> Hell, Sabatini, they told you a lot of material was used. 

But never actually went into even the simplest details to prove it.

> You were even given books and articles to look into. 

This is true.

> But you refused to go to the library 

This is false.

> like your denier buddy, Old man Phillips. 

I wouldn't talk about age, *old* man!  ;-)

> But you call folks liar all you want to. You can call people 
> hypocrits in place of your own intellectual bankruptsy. 

"I call them as I see them." - Mike Curtis in this very message.

> It isn't going to change the fact that you write and 
> respond EXACTLY like a typical holocuast denier.

I also walk and use the same mechanisms as you do to talk. What does that
prove? Why, nothing of course! This is just Curtis playing at the Nizkooks
game of smearing opponents.

> >> >> Most people understand English and it is a valid request. 
> >> >
> >> >Again, what in *tarnation* is the above supposed to mean? 
> >> >Dewd, like, speak _American_, OK?
> >> >
> >> >> It simply takes a little longer.
> >> >
> >> >What? Inter-library loan?
> >> 
> >> Yes, it takes longer to get book than if they had it on the shelves.
> >> You haven't been to a library have you?

I was only trying to clarify what you were babbling about. Relax, old timer.

> >I have many times. I was just trying to clear up your 
> >gibberish above. You see, unlike you I ask for a clarification 
> >before smearing, Curtis. You and your Nizkook pals hardly 
> >ever bother; you just start smearing at the slightest
> >provocation and without asking the victim to explain. 
> >That's because you kooks are more interested in smearing 
> >people instead of anything else. That's also one of the 
> >things that makes you lot 'Nizkooks'.
> 
> No, Sabatini the great denier, that is not true. 

First stage: denial.

> You came into this newgroup begging for a fight. You 
> wanted people to call you names. You had this massive 
> erection to be insulted. 

Pig. What were you doing look at my crotch? Pervert.

> Most people wouldn't do it. They asked you questions; 
> they gave yu the benefit of the doubt. Now its been, what, 
> six months, and my doubt is gone about you. I'm going
> to go out of this newsgroup making it real clear that you
> are a denier. 

Second stage: anger.

> I'm positive that I have succeeded and that is why you follow
> me around like a wounded puppy.

Third stage: self-delusion.

BTW, when you said, "I'm going to go out of this newsgroup," do you mean you
will be leaving us soon? Just curious.

> >> >> >What's worse is that you kooks post huge tracts 
> >> >> >of text, but when asked for a simple scan of the 
> >> >> >gas chamber plans the silence has been...deafening. 
> >> >> >Why is that, Curtis? Don't you have those plans in 
> >> >> >front of you?
> >> >> 
> >> >> Some of them, yup. Van Pelts book ought to be in 
> >> >> your library. Give it a shot. Either that or walk down 
> >> >> to the local book store and order a copy of _Auschwitz: 
> >> >> 1270 to the Present_. Better yet do an interlibrary 
> >> >> loan request for Pressac's book. You can do it. You're 
> >> >> a big boy. 
> >> >
> >> >Which one has the stuff I'm looking for? Specifically, I 
> >> >wanna see *engineering plans* and/or an operations 
> >> >manual. Tell which one's the best and I'll find the book.
> >> 
> >> You are not going to find something SO completely specific 
> >> and I told you why in another thread. I'm done telliong you 
> >> why. You want to play this denier game, you can declare 
> >> victory and play all by yourself.

Looks like _you're_ the only one here "declaring victory", Curtis. (See above
and below.)

> >Finally I get one of you Nizkooks to speak plainly and 
> >truthfully! Before this, you were all protesting and stamping 
> >your feet about how engineering plans for a gas chamber 
> >_did_ exist and how you kooks had 'em. Now, you
> 
> They do, but not so opening as you want to be you silly, 
> stupid, moronic, nincompoop.

Tut, tut! IOW, you re-iterate that *don't* have engineering plans per se
and/or an operations manual of some kind so you must present _other_ forms of
evidence. No need to get all huffy, Curtis.

> >finally admit that you don't really have that, but you have 
> >something _else_ instead. It took a while, but it eventually 
> >happened. I am pleased.
> 
> I'm glad your pleased with yur ignorance. 

It appears that you have only demonstrated _your_ ample "ignorance" here
seeing as how you failed miserably to understand what was said. That way fun!
Can we do it again?

> >> >> >> In fact, you seem to have ignored some of the 
> >> >> >> material that has been posted in this group.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Some stuff doesn't get through here. But what 
> >> >> >"material" are you referring to?
> >> >> 
> >> >> Gord McFee's stuff, Laura Finsten's stuff, and the stuff 
> >> >> I presented you with. You even responded in your 
> >> >> usual churlish manner.
> >> >
> >> >Liar. None of that stuff showed how the 11 million figure 
> >> >was arrived at.
> >> 
> >> You were given the citations and the places to look. You 
> >> chose to start fights instead. Showing the readers of this 
> >> group what a denier fool you are.
> >
> >No, you're lying again. People were explain why you kooks 
> >don't have anywhere near a large size of ashes and remains. 
> >They didn't explain how the magic 11 million number came 
> >to be.
> 
> Magic only to an ignorant denier named Sabatini.

"Magic" because it is oh-so-convenient. Mind you, that really wouldn't be a
problem were it not for the fact that just about _every other_ single piece of
important evidence for your case is also so damned _convenient_. Just look at
this business with the engineering plans! You claim the Nazis had to keep it a
secret, and hence, you cannot provide them! How bloody convenient!

> >[...]
> >
> >> >> >> I have some idea what yu haven't read. If 
> >> >> >> you had you would  have a basic understanding 
> >> >> >> of the basics concerning this history.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Really? Like what? Be specific.
> >> >> 
> >> >> You haven't read Hilberg or Reitlinger. Is that 
> >> >> specific enough?
> >> >
> >> >Yup. That's all I asked for. I'm glad you were finally 
> >> >able to answer in a direct and clear fashion. Most of 
> >> >the time you kooks don't do that; you obfuscate and 
> >> >play silly games.
> >> 
> >> I see I was correct in my assumption about you not 
> >> having the basics.
> >
> >No, you are only correct in that I haven't read anything 
> >of those two other than extracts. Don't get too uppity, 
> >Curtis. It won't do you any good.
> 
> I read your words which are never very interesting.

I think you should retract this statement because it makes you look like the
biggest fool in all creation (or at least in this newsgroup)!

> >[...]
> >
> >> >> >> >Define "denier", Curtis. Be specific and clear. 
> >> >> >> >Then we'll see just how much of an ass you 
> >> >> >> >and your fellow travelers really are. You dolts 
> >> >> >> >are cheap propagandists. You fool no one.
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> I have ad nauseum to you. I'm not going to do 
> >> >> >> it over and over and over. Read some of these 
> >> >> >> other active threads and you will find my 
> >> >> >> responses. Get back to me after to understand.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I _have_ been reading your posts, Curtis. None 
> >> >> >of them contain your definition of "denier". Maybe 
> >> >> >these articles haven't reach here yet, so I'll wait 
> >> >> >a few. (BTW, it's not at Deja News either.)
> >> >
> >> >Judging from your reply below, are we to assume 
> >> >that you were lying when you claimed you have 
> >> >already answered the question? Or was this just a 
> >> >mistake of some sort?
> >> 
> >> I'm answering it again for those with short memories 
> >> like yourself.
> >
> >You just can't admit the truth, can you, Curtis?

I guess Curtis' silence answered my question.

> >> >> Deniers are those who deny the holocaust and its facets 
> >> >> to promote a political agenda of their own. It has nothing 
> >> >> to do with history. They will play numbers games as you 
> >> >> have. One of the tactics is to camouflage their goals. They 
> >> >> will hide the fact that they are on a specific political and 
> >> >> ideological agenda by stating that all they care about is 
> >> >> historical truth.
> >> >
> >> >Since you've called me a "denier", tell us all exactly what 
> >> >_my_ "political agenda" is, Curtis. Don't forget to provide 
> >> >proof for any of your allegations.
> >> 
> >> I can only assume what YOUR political agenda is. 
> >
> >Well, that what I asked for, Curtis.
> 
> I'm done with you Sabatini. Act the fool and play the fool. I'm not
> going to help you do this any futher. 

Yes, it appears as if you are preparing to tuck tail and make a mad dash for
the nearest exit, no doubt screaming, "Victory!" along the way.

> >> I suspect it is much as I've already described. 
> >
> >What, you mean raise a Nazi party from the ashes, 
> >phoenix-like, in a mad bid to act out Holocaust II: 
> >The Sequel? You're a pretty kooky guy, Curtis.
> >
> >> Frankly, I don't care. I don't much care about you. 
> >
> >That's OK. I don't ask that you do, Curtis. All I ask is 
> >that you kooks answer questions -- if you are so inclined 
> >-- in a clear, direct and honest fashion. You clowns don't 
> >do that, Curtis, and I got tired of watching you play your
> >games.
> 
> So you follow me around and form new threads. what 
> a moron.

Are you so sure that _I_ am "following" _you_? Perhaps in your haughty
arrogance you're missing some vital clue...

> >> I only know that you act and behave like a denier. 
> >
> >That's because you're a paranoid kook. But that's stating 
> >the obvious.

And the best part is that Curtis supplies all of the evidence for me!

> >> You even pretend you are not. 
> >
> >Image that! People actually protesting their innocence! Why, 
> >next thing you know and these people will start demanding 
> >for proof, too! LOL! You're a real killer, Curtis; you always 
> >find new and innovative ways of cracking me up!
> >
> >> I'm not going to pretend with you. 
> >
> >No, you are too busy "pretending" that their are evil 
> >Nazis (tm), vile anti-Semites (tm) and diabolical Deniers (tm) 
> >all around you. But that's OK seeing as how good you are at it.
> >
> >> I'm going to label your on-line personality as I see it.
> >
> >Yes, you will continue smearing. Don't worry, though! Sooner 
> >or later it's gonna back to you. Hopefully I'll be there to see it 
> >so I can have a big, hearty laugh.
> >
> >> >> They want to uncover historical falsehoods. 
> >> >
> >> >Yes... Did you forget a "don't" here or am I 
> >> >misunderstanding?
> >> 
> >> No I did not forget the don't. This is a claim they 
> >> make.
> >
> >Care to explain? I'm a little unclear as to what you're 
> >trying to say.
> 
> I did not forget the word don't in the sentence you idiot.

Testy, testy! Geez, I'm just trying to make sure I understand you correctly
because the sentence in question doesn't make too much sense in this context.
Pop a valium, dude!

> >> >> Deniers typically play games with historiography 
> >> >> by mixing truth in with outright distortions. Usually 
> >> >> what the ideological goal is, according to Deborah 
> >> >> Lipstadt is fascism and anti-Semitism. 
> >> >
> >> >Really? What's my "ideological goal", Curtis? I thought 
> >> >I made it plain that I am against greedy scumbag 
> >> >organizations who suck money off the Holocaust.
> >> 
> >> That's what you pretend, yes. Your actions of late 
> >> suggest something different. 
> >
> >LOL! I keep telling my friends about you, Curtis, but most 
> >of 'em don't believe me. They think I made you up!

I'm gonna forward a few of them this post, Curtis.

> >> >> This slick play with historical facts draws in the 
> >> >> more ignorant and pliable people. Some of that 
> >> >> is happening here.
> >> >
> >> >Well, all in all it certainly sounds like some monstrous 
> >> >conspiracy, Curtis. Evil "fascists" plotting the downfall 
> >> >of our righteous democratic society, twisting and 
> >> >corrupting youths in a vile bid at world domination and 
> >> >the killing of Jews (or some such). Gee, sounds just as 
> >> >kooky as those ZOG conspiracies you and you're pals 
> >> >laugh about... *Gasp!* Surely not?!?
> >> >
> >> >LOL! But to be fair, I'm gonna ask you the same 
> >> >questions I asked John Morris -- who decided not to 
> >> >answer -- about this YANC (Yet Another Nazi 
> >> >Conspiracy). Maybe you'll be brave enough to 
> >> >supply the answers. Here goes:
> >> >
> >> >John Morris said: I know this will come as a shock 
> >> >to your sheltered sensibilities, Anthony, but there 
> >> >actually are people who deny the Holocaust and who 
> >> >falsify history in order to sustain their denial. I can 
> >> >think of no other historical event which has an 
> >> >organized campaign of denial associatedwith it.
> >> >
> >> >To which I asked: So let's discuss that. What is the 
> >> >scope of this "campaign"?
> >> 
> >> The scope runs from Neo-Nazis to skinheads to the KKK. 
> >
> >I see. Anyone else?
> 
> Read, Sabatini. Go to the local library and read.

Sure. I'm just trying to narrow down my search criteria. Surely you don't have
a problem with that, do you?

> >> >How "organized" do you think they are?
> >> 
> >> They have lots of money and fight over it. Read 
> >> about the recent Carto business and the battle 
> >> over Edison's money.
> >
> >At the IHR Web site or the Nizkult? Do you have a 
> >specific document in mind...?
> 
> Actually, several books, but yu don't read those.

You're being silly. Now how about a straight answer this time...?

> >> >When you say they "deny the Holocaust", what 
> >> >exactly to do mean? (Before answering that you'll 
> >> >have to give us a definition of what "the Holocaust" 
> >> >encompasses.)
> >> 
> >> I've defined this for you in the past, Sabatini.
> >
> >No, you defined it in the previous post. In any case, you 
> >must remember these questions were originally directed 
> >at John Morris.
> >
> >> > And who is this "they"?
> >> 
> >> See above.
> >
> >Well, can you be specific?
> 
> I was specific you moron.

You spouted: "Neo-Nazis to skinheads to the KKK". Markie-pooh told me a while
back that their are all manner of groups claiming to be "neo-Nazis" and that
they may or may not share certain ideals. I believe Mr. Bebbington was also
involved in that discussion. As to skinheads, there appear to be more
(radically) different groups of those than there are Led Zeppelin imitation
bands. At least that's what the self-professed 'skinhead' Jenn Starkman keeps
saying. Lastly, you mentioned the KKK. As near as I can tell that also happens
to be many differing 'sub-groups', if you will, of them running around the
countryside; some wearing bed sheets and others that aren't.

As you see, then, I am asking you to help me narrow my search criteria down
just a little. Moron.

> >> > A conspiracy of some sort?
> >> 
> >> Just hate, Sabatini. The kind of hate that you claim to 
> >> only have against Jewish support groups.
> >
> >I never claimed to "hate" those losers, Curtis. I just despise 
> >them as any healthy person should view good-for-nothing 
> >parasites.
> 
> Then don't act like them.

What?!? Are you claiming that I comport myself in a like manner as the
sleazeballs at the ADL, SWC, AJC, et al? What are you on about here, Curtis?

> >But I take you're saying this _is_, if fact, some nefarious 
> >conspiracy?
> 
> Shit no. This is all in your silly stupid twenty-five (now that's
> embarassing to be 25 and so stupid) year old mind.

Well, shee-it, man! Whadd're you yapping and a-hootin' about, then?

> >> > Who are its members?
> >> 
> >> They could be your neighbor next door. They are any man.
> >
> >Gee, these guys must have the civilized world shaking in 
> >their boots! Are they anything like S.P.E.C.T.R.E. from 
> >the James Bond movies?
> 
> The world of movies again.

Well, then it is perfectly appropriate considering the supposed topic of this
newsgroup!  ;-)

> >> >What do they do to further their cause and how?
> >> 
> >> They do what you do, Sabatini.
> >
> >Oh?
> 
> Yes, exactly. 

Are you accusing me of running around wearing bed sheets over my head, Curtis?
Of that I dye my hair orange and purple?

> >> > Is there one or more leaders involved? Who are 
> >> > these people?
> >> 
> >> Read up on the denial groups and get back to me. Start 
> >> with Deborah Lipstadt's _Denying the Holocaust_.
> >
> >So she talks about this massive conspiracy, too, does she? 
> >Maybe it might be worth reading her book after all.
> 
> She doesn't talk about a conspiracy. 

Shit, man! Then why were *you*?

> She talks about people concerned with distorting history 
> for various reasons. You have been supplied with some 
> of those reasons.

OK. Fair enough.

> >> >Why do they do what they do?
> >> 
> >> Explained above. If you want a book about it, I 
> >> gave you one to start with.
> >
> >So Lipstadt explains the inner workings of this 
> >malefic cabal, eh?
> >
> >> > Are they succeeding?
> >> 
> >> The biggies ran from this ng? I'd say no. That's my 
> >> opinion. They do make gains in various quarters. 
> >> I'm not tuned into the statiistics on their gains. 
> >
> >Does Lipstadt cite any statistics about this?
> 
> No.

Hmph. Pity.

> >> My concern is mostly historical.
> >
> >No it's not. You're interested in smearing people, Curtis. 
> >Remember, you claimed that there aren't enough (or any) 
> >"historical discussions" taking place here. As such, the only 
> >other reason you're hear is to smear and get your jollies.
> 
> Sabatini, you act exactly like a denier and a childish one at that.

Does this mean I've sunk your battleship?

> I'm quite done with Sabatini. He's too burned and tainted 
> to continue with. 

IOW, you will quickly spin around, tuck tail firmly between your hind legs and
scurry off while declaring victory of some sort.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:07 EST 1997
Article: 144939 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <01bce281$ca925ee0$9b938bcf@odin>  <01bce2ee$56e45670$80b113cc@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce314$21757c50$120bcdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.11.18
Date: 27 Oct 97 20:12:54 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.11.18
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144939

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> # Daniel Keren  wrote:
> ## "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> ### I have explained it to you countless times, but 
> ### instead you choose to continue your smearing. 
> ### I told you how someone was asking what your 
> ### Nizkooks would do with the all the files you
> ### collect on people posting here, if you would 
> ### "interrogate" us like the Commies used to. I 
> ### replied, tongue in cheek, making a play on 
> ### words on "interrogate". But you never listen, 
> ### Keren.
> 
> ## This is simply not a valid explanation for your statement
> 
> # Sez you.
> 
> Either words have meaning, or they don't. You made 
> two very explicit statements. You claim you didn't really 
> mean what you wrote. This is like the Zundel "he didn't 
> really mean what he wrote about the UFOs" stuff. When, 
> then, can we know if you mean what you write or not?

You hoisted yourself on your own petard below. Read on.

> I'll give you an example of a *real* case of "quoting out
> of context". Some "revisionist" swines quote Eli Wiesel's
> recollection of an offer the SS made to a group of inmates
> in Auschwitz, to join them when they leave the camp, or stay
> and wait for the Soviets. Wiesel said that 80 percent decided
> to join the SS. "Revisionists" claim that this "proves" that
> the inmates had no reason to fear the SS. They "forget" to
> mention that Wiesel also said that the inmates were afraid that
> the SS would kill anyone who said he wanted to stay, or mine
> the camp and blow it up when they leave, killing everybody.
> 
> This is a *real* case of "quoting out of context". Get it?

That this passage may be "out of context" does nothing to invalidate the claim
that so is yours.

> My quote of your article is not "out of context". It is
> not partial, it is not distorted, 

In fact, it is all three.

> it is not an attempt to misrepresent a joke as 
> something serious. I am 100 percent
> sure that you meant it. 100 percent. 

So no matter what is said or done, you will never change your mind. I see.
What do we call that kind of behavior, Danny?

> Now, you're sorry that you wrote it, for obvious 
> reasons; but, still, you wrote it and you meant it.

I am only "sorry" that you, but some evil misfortune, decided to capitalize on
it.

> # No, it is not. It is an explanation, and a far more
> # plausible one that the one given by you while defending
> # that lying charlatan, Moshe Peer.
> 
> See previous article.

Yes, please do.

> ## Same for your statement that it "may be fail 
> ## payment" to beat Dr. John Morris and myself 
> ## with a pick axe handle. Your excuses for this 
> ## violent and hateful statement don't hold water.
> 
> # Did I say anything about beating either of you?
> 
> What a bloody hypocrite you are. You said that beating us
> "may be fair payment". This is equivalent to saying "you did
> something bad enough so as to make physical torture a
> reasonable punishment". This is incitement to violence.

Playing the same game you are playing, I can easily claim I said nothing about
beating you. And by _your own_ rules I'd be right.

> # No, Morris asked a question and I gave a possible answer;
> 
> Yes, you have indeed.

But I did *not* claim I wanted you beaten.

> # That you smear willfully is apparent. Others have also
> # complained about your smearing.
> 
> And others have also noted your violent, hateful rants.

"Violent"? Well, I've heard of a 'tongue-lashing' before, but this certainly
takes the cake!

> Everyone will decide for him/herself.

Yes, but in the meantime I have to waste my time defending myself whenever you
get and an attack or urge to do evil.

> ### Don't worry, though, it's all gonna come back to you.
> ### In spades.
> 
> ## You have that pick axe handle under your bed, Anthony
> ## my boy?
> 
> # And if I do?
> 
> Then I have an A-bomb under my bed. You see - that's a joke,
> because I am saying something which is obviously untrue. 

No, it was not a joke. You have admitted to illegally owning an A-bomb and you
keep it hidden under your bed. Remember, "Either words have meaning, or they
don't." - Danny Keren in this very same article.

As you see, I could go on like this. Now maybe most people will think it's a
joke, but you never know who may take it seriously and decide to investigate,
particularly if I keep re-posting this frequently.

You see, I don't understand why I should find it any harder to believe that
you have access to an A-bomb than I have the power to throw people in jail.

But you just don't it. Your move, Danny.

> Your statements were not a joke.

Like I said, "Sez you".

> ## You're gonna beat me up, Anthony my boy?
> 
> # I told you before I would not waste my time.
> #
> # But I am firm believer in what goes around comes around,
> 
> In that case, you should repent for your sins, and apologize
> to those you have offended.

I'll take what's coming to me, alright. Just look to yourself for I fear
you're not as prepared.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:09 EST 1997
Article: 144941 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Phillips vs Mock III
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971015172801.NAA22622@ladder01.news.aol.com> <344577D6.1FAF@earthlink.net> <01bcda44$c45ad650$757acdcd@odin> <34434dd1.186097704@news.goodnet.com> <01bcda97$cbfeedd0$e2a2cdcd@odin> <344a57e1.81700031@news.jump.net> <01bcdeff$2a3f9cd0$807acdcd@odin>  <01bcdf4f$166ace00$550bcdcd@odin> <344ff941$14$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce0a3$7dd6a000$27718bcf@odin>  <01bce0e6$b504c5a0$a3a1cdcd@odin>  <01bce1b7$1f878090$55a1cdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 27 Oct 97 20:16:41 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144941

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce1b7$1f878090$55a1cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> > Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
> > ...
> > > In article <01bce0e6$b504c5a0$a3a1cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> > >  wrote:

[...]

> > > Next time Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini 
> > > should get a better rewsreader. Attaching large files 
> > > (images in this case) in a single segement to a post 
> > > sometimes causes problems with some newsreaders. 
> > > That's why having your newsreader segment them is 
> > > better netiquette. But Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" 
> > > Sabatini  knew that, of course, right? He simply wanted 
> > > to make _more_ excuses for not dealing with the 
> > > evidence that L.Keller 1 was a homicidal gas chamber. 
> > 
> > You moron. I'm saying that some segments of your 
> > pictures aren't getting through yet. This has nothing to do 
> > with my newsreader. Idiot.
> 
> And yet I, for example, easily downloaded the segemented 
> image with my newsreader. 

IOW, you remain an idiot.

> Perhpaps  Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's 
> problem _isn't_ with his newsreader? Perhaps the problem 
> is that  Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini is a 
> moron who can't use a newsreader properly? 

No, you're *still* an idiot.

> What a thought.

What would you know of those? Read about in a children's book, have you?

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) deloused]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:11 EST 1997
Article: 144942 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Ostroll on the Web!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
References: <341f3664$11$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <19970917103501.GAA19562@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3420926a$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3420d3a3.93365700@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc442$5ec73350$3856eccd@odin> <342234bc.183772769@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc510$42ef0300$7537eccd@odin> <3422b4ac.3188284@news.jump.net> <01bcc527$0487db20$687acdcd@odin> <342499ab.35048660@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc6a2$497dbcf0$daa1cdcd@odin> <34257dc6.1755354@news.uniserve.com> <34528bc3.5972379@news.hrc-counsel.net> <01bce1b2$8c7ad620$55a1cdcd@odin> <3453101B.88@concentric.net> <3452f180.53052991@news.uniserve.com> <34543673.3550@concentric.net> <01bce295$46f6dfc0$9b938bcf@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce315$4bc2fea0$120bcdcd@odin>
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Date: 27 Oct 97 20:21:15 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144942 alt.politics.white-power:100148

Chuck Ferree  wrote in article
...
> From Chuck Ferree:
> 
> Just sticking my nose because of the freedom of speech misunderstanding.
> 
> At least three people have had their service discontinued in part, due to
> my various complaints to their servers. I'm not trying to stifle their
> speech, my intent is to back up my threats to these turkeys, that if they
> continue to attack me, and or my family, personally for no reason, in
> other words there is no argument or discussion taking place...these people
> just started with their vulgar insults, out of the blue. They were warned
> numerous times to either cease the personal attacks, deal with the subject
> matter, or shut up about me. The results were the same, more vicious
> insults. Slander, libel, and so on. These people were told what action I
> would take if they continued, and they continued. Their servers were
> notified, along with much evidence of their use of the news group to
> attack me and my family. They violated their terms of service with their
> server, in two cases AOL, and eventually were dropped. Now you can whine
> about freedom of speech all you want too, Sabatini, and or anybody else.
> Your freedom stops at the end of my nose. I don't have to be subjected to
> a barrage of lies, character assassination, or insults, smears and the
> like. I participate in this news group because it needs to be done. The
> so-called revisionists and deniers are not going to turn history around
> while I'm able to fight against them. Another reason is; I hate bigotry, I
> really hate bigots, racists, people who believe they are better than
> others because of their race or religion. In the past, when I first
> started posting, my anger and disgust came through loud and clear. I did
> it all wrong. Now, things don't get under my skin so much, I realize that
> most Holocaust deniers have a different agenda, I know that most deniers
> are simply bigots. I know that most deniers are dishonest, so I try to
> deal with the issues more and people less. Got a ways to go, but it's
> progress.

I have just one question.

Who woke you up, Chuck?

> Michael Ives  wrote in article
> <34543673.3550@concentric.net>...
> > I did it!  In response to the Ostroll's challenge, I visited its 
> > website and _lived to tell the tale_!

CHUCK:>>>>Such a pity. Should have scarred you for life.

Chuck, you you realize how you just insulted the Ostroll?

LOL! Chuck, looks like you're finally coming around!  ;-)

[snip the rest of the text since Chuck probably hasn't a clue about who said
what anyway]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:13 EST 1997
Article: 144947 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news.structured.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Turn over another rock, and there they are!
Date: 27 Oct 1997 21:02:04 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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References: 
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144947

Chuck Ferree  wrote in article
...
> From Chuck Ferree:
> 
> Another "mental giant" joins forces with Sabatini et al!

Chuck, no one has, to my knowledge, ever accused you of being a "mental giant"
(or a "crazy ogre", either).  ;-)

[Chuck's rubbish-laden post swept under the rug]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:14 EST 1997
Article: 144963 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <345a71af.2830902@news.demon.co.uk> <3457447c.1885017@news.jump.net> <01bce27f$f082a8f0$9b938bcf@odin> <3456a268.4859730@news.jump.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144963

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3456a268.4859730@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><3457447c.1885017@news.jump.net>...
> >> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >> 
> >> >mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>does not invalidate the Einsatzgruppen reports! But when 
> >> >>>YOU try to make excuses for Moshe Peer's ramblings you 
> >> >>>just anger people. If you occasionally said, "Yep, that one 
> >> >>>is probably a nutter, or trying to cash in" nobody would 
> >> >>>argue with you - at least, I would not:-). And anyone else 
> >> >>>who did would look silly.
> >> >>
> >> >>I believe I've said that.
> >> >
> >> >Good. Sensible. Moshe Peer neither confirms nor denies the 
> >> >Holocaust. What he does do is show that there are some 
> >> >strange stories which are feted for various reasons, most of 
> >> >which I suspect are connected to gain.
> >> 
> >> What has he gained, Fergus? 
> >
> >Earnings from his book, dimwit. You see what I mean about you playing dumb,
> >Curtis?
> 
> He has a book? What's it called? I've never heard of it. 

Yes, the parasite decided to scum money off of hapless fools who believe his
half-baked tales and outright lies. It's called _Inoubliable Bergen-Belsen_
("inoubliable" is "unforgettable" in French).

In it he claimed to have been gassed AT LEAST SIX TIMES at Bergen-Belsen. Was
there a gas chamber at Bergen-Belsen, Curtis? Be honest, now.

> >> What historians use his story?
> >
> >Who cares?
> 
> Deniers do not care about that FACT, do they, denier 
> Sabatini?

*Sigh* I explained why I said that right below. Of course, you were too busy
hunting down Nazis to notice. Here's a FREE clue, Curtis:

> >This is the policy I'm gonna adopt with you, Curtis. You 
> >scream and shout in here all the time about what *you* 
> >wanna see and what *you* think is important or what is 
> >and isn't on-topic. From now on, I'm gonna tell you the 
> >same thing.
> 
> I know you don't care, Sabatini. You don't care about the 
> evidence or the facts of history. Your a denier and that is 
> typical of deniers.

Liar. I explained this to you, Curtis. Quit playing your stupid character
assassination games.

> >> Who keeps bringing him up? 
> >
> >People who are interested. Besides, it just goes to show 
> >a little 'background' in this "Shoah business".
> 
> What's this background. 

He was born in France in 1933 and arrested there at the age of 9. While he and
his two younger siblings were sent to Bergen-Belsen while his mom went to
Auschwitz, apparently dying there.

Peer claims to have been gassed *at least* 6 times, miraculously surviving
each time as his friends and other prisoners collapsed in gas chambers. He
claimed that perhaps children were immune to the gas' effect, even though he
also stated his friends -- of similar age -- died in the chambers. Also
contradicting his wild tales is the small matter of there _not being any gas
chambers_ at Bergen-Belsen!

He spent 19 years (up until 1993) "researching" the subject which he so
readily lies about. Now he goes around to synagogues spreading his tales of
woe and abject terror while promoting his book (of course!). He lives here in
Montreal.

> How is an historical event "Shoah Business." I
> see, this is more of your denier posturing. I forgot.

No, dummy. Contrary to your pompous beliefs, this newsgroup does not solely
exist to discuss the historicity of the Holocaust; it's also the ideal place
to discuss the mendacious misuses which it put to. These are two separate
issues, Curtis, regardless of how loudly you protest.

> >> If there are strange stories, as there are about many 
> >> historical events, does not say that all stories are strange.
> >
> >So what?
> 
> See, a denier does not care, folks. They are intellectually bankrupt.

Yes, we see perfectly who is "intellectually bankrupt" here and that person's
initials are MC. Need another clue, Curtis?

> >> >>I've not met, read, or seen him. I only heard about him 
> >> >>from deniers who ALWAYS bring him up. 
> >>
> >> >I've read a  newspaper report or two which were posted here. 
> >> 
> >> Yet, you think he's important in some way? What way is that, 
> >> Fergus?
> >
> >I don't know how Mr. McClelland views the matter, but I see it as just one
> >more way in which the Holocaust is put to mendacious misuses.
> 
> What historians use this Peer stuff? 

> I know, you don't care that he isn't used. 

That's right, because the historicity and the misuses of the Holocaust are two
separate topics, Curtis. Quit being dense and try to see beyond the tethers of
your self-imposed ignorance.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:16 EST 1997
Article: 144965 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Details on a diabolical conspiracy here (was: Phillips vs Mock III)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bce2f5$12faea30$80b113cc@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce323$88c5dbc0$84b113cc@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144965

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> # I asked for a very specific piece of evidence; i.e.,
> # engineering plans
> 
> The plans exist, 

Hint for the eternally cluess: "I asked for a very specific piece of evidence;
i.e., engineering plans". *These* plans do not exist.

> the inventory exists, numerous documents
> for the ventilation system and the cremation furnaces
> exist. The concepts "gassing cellar" and "gas chamber"
> are in the documents. The gas-tight and reinforced door
> is mentioned. The introduction devices are mentioned.
> The HCN gas detectors are mentioned. Even the shower
> heads, put in to fool the victims, are mentioned. The
> "undressing room", in which the victims undressed before
> entering the gas chamber, is mentioned. And there is more.

I don't know what language to write in to make you understand, but I'll try
once more in English.

At this point and time, I am only interested in discovering whether
engineering plans of the kind normally used in a construction project. You
don't have them. Curtis admitted as much. Yes, you have _other_ evidence, and
I don't deny this. We will get to this stuff later.

Do you understand?

> Now - will you kindly stop being such a blithering imbecile?

I was only attempting to dumb down the language to your level, Keren. I see I
will have to stoop lower to make one such as you understand.

> # IOW, you know damn well that no one was discussing any
> # evidence of how the 11 million figures was added up
> # except population analysis in those threads.
> 
> No - it was explained to you, numerous times, that Nazi
> records were used. Also, an independent method - adding
> the numbers of victims at different camps/localities -
> was used.

And this adds up to 11 million? Where did they get the numbers from, Keren?
They got 'em from your population analysis spiel.

> Are you senile already at your tender age? Or are you
> a liar? Or are you simply utterly stupid?
> 
> Get a grip on yourself... you pathetic, miserable fool.

Calm yourself, Ganymede. You're liable to pop a blood vessel or something.
Hmmm...maybe I'll get Giwer to come back here for a visit...

Oh, and pretty pathetic attempt at changing the subject, loser. Here's the
entire post before lil' Ganymede here went wild with the virtual scissors:

< begin previous message >

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<345599b9.2636244@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><344f3d07.512111776@news.jump.net>...
> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> 
> >>  [snip]
> >> 
> >> >> >> >No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust occurred.
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> No one! How about Joe Bellinger? Andrew Allen? Mark Raven? 
> >> >> >> Michael the Nationalist? Matt Giwer? Phillips?
> >> >> 
> >> >> >I don't believe any of these people have claimed the Holocaust 
> >> >> >did not occur at all.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Phillips: "No gas chambers. No holocaust." 
> >> >
> >> >Ask him what he means by that. In any case, how about the rest?
> >> 
> >> I believe your claim was "No one here seriously doubts the Holocaust
> >> occurred." Yup, there it is above. 
> >
> >First, you really should ask Mr. Phillips what he meant by that 
> >if you truly are interested in truth and not the smearing you do.
> 
> What does it mean? Your kidding, right, Anthony? It's pretty plain to
> me what he meant. There are very few words there Anthony.

That's exactly why you should be suspicious, or at least curious in the very
least. Instead, you show very clearly you are not interested in discovering
the truth of the matter; you are content to merely insult and play Nizkook
games.

> >> >> Phillips: "No gas chambers. No holocaust." 
> 
> Still looks pretty clear.

Of course! For someone with preconceived and bias ideas such you, it is very
apparent!

> >Second, are you claiming that if someone doesn't believe 
> >or isn't too sure about these gas chambers,
> 
> Someone, like you, who refuses to analyze the information 
> available at the local book lending institution? 

I never refused anything, Curtis. In fact, it has been you and your merry band
of misfits who have consistently refused to talk in a clear manner. Worse, you
clowns have lied and continue to lie about what is available (such as
engineering plans for gas chambers).

> Isn't sure? Don't pull my leg here, Sabatini. 

I have no intention of "pulling your leg", Curtis. I wasn't even referring to
myself above. But you just used it as a springboard to further your smearing
based on your biases.

> Neither one of you have a clue about the basic research into 
> this subject and the recent reaction to Mark's stuff makes it 
> pretty clear that you two have no intention of even trying to
> understand the evidence.

This is another lie. I asked for a very specific piece of evidence; i.e.,
engineering plans and/or an operations manual for a gas chamber. You liars
claimed you had this, but when pressed, you were shown up. You haven't got any
of this stuff, Curtis. You guys have some _other_ bits of evidence, but you
lied about having any engineering plans. That makes you dolts liars.

> > but fully believes that large numbers of people were
> >mercilessly slaughtered by the Nazis, they are "deniers"?
> 
> Yes.

Good. That's what I like to see from your kooks, Curtis; honest and straight
answers. I'm tired of your silly Nizkooks games.

> [snip]
> 
> >> You get to work on the rest. I have better things to do. 
> >
> >Like what?
> 
> Like, live my life to the fullest.

Oh.

> [snipped Sabatini PRETENDING there haven't been any threrads 
> with him discussing the 11-12 million figure. I'm not going to play 
> this idiotic game.]

Riiight. IOW, you know damn well that no one was discussing any evidence of
how the 11 million figures was added up except population analysis in those
threads. You're a liar, Curtis. And a hypocrite.

> >> Most people understand English and it is a valid request. 
> >
> >Again, what in *tarnation* is the above supposed to mean? Dewd, 
> >like, speak _American_, OK?
> >
> >> It simply takes a little longer.
> >
> >What? Inter-library loan?
> 
> Yes, it takes longer to get book than if they had it on the shelves.
> You haven't been to a library have you?

I have many times. I was just trying to clear up your gibberish above. You
see, unlike you I ask for a clarification before smearing, Curtis. You and
your Nizkook pals hardly ever bother; you just start smearing at the slightest
provocation and without asking the victim to explain. That's because you kooks
are more interested in smearing people instead of anything else. That's also
one of the things that makes you lot 'Nizkooks'.

> >> >What's worse is that you kooks post huge tracts of text, but 
> >> >when asked for a simple scan of the gas chamber plans the 
> >> >silence has been...deafening. Why is that, Curtis? Don't
> >> >you have those plans in front of you?
> >> 
> >> Some of them, yup. Van Pelts book ought to be in your library. 
> >> Give it a shot. Either that or walk down to the local book store 
> >> and order a copy of _Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present_. Better 
> >> yet do an interlibrary loan request for Pressac's book. You can 
> >> do it. You're a big boy. 
> >
> >Which one has the stuff I'm looking for? Specifically, I wanna see
> >*engineering plans* and/or an operations manual. Tell which one's
> > the best and I'll find the book.
> 
> You are not going to find something SO completely specific and I 
> told you why in another thread. I'm done telliong you why. You 
> want to play this denier game, you can declare victory and play 
> all by yourself.

Finally I get one of you Nizkooks to speak plainly and truthfully! Before
this, you were all protesting and stamping your feet about how engineering
plans for a gas chamber _did_ exist and how you kooks had 'em. Now, you
finally admit that you don't really have that, but you have something _else_
instead. It took a while, but it eventually happened. I am pleased.

> >> >> In fact, you seem to have ignored some of the material 
> >> >> that has been posted in this group.
> >> >
> >> >Some stuff doesn't get through here. But what "material" 
> >> >are you referring to?
> >> 
> >> Gord McFee's stuff, Laura Finsten's stuff, and the stuff I presented
> >> you with. You even responded in your usual churlish manner.
> >
> >Liar. None of that stuff showed how the 11 million figure was arrived at.
> 
> You were given the citations and the places to look. You chose to
> start fights instead. Showing the readers of this group what a denier
> fool you are.

No, you're lying again. People were explain why you kooks don't have anywhere
near a large size of ashes and remains. They didn't explain how the magic 11
million number came to be.

[...]

> >> >> I have some idea what yu haven't read. If you had 
> >> >> you would  have a basic understanding of the basics 
> >> >> concerning this history.
> >> >
> >> >Really? Like what? Be specific.
> >> 
> >> You haven't read Hilberg or Reitlinger. Is that specific enough?
> >
> >Yup. That's all I asked for. I'm glad you were finally able to 
> >answer in a direct and clear fashion. Most of the time you kooks 
> >don't do that; you obfuscate and play silly games.
> 
> I see I was correct in my assumption about you not having the basics.

No, you are only correct in that I haven't read anything of those two other
than extracts. Don't get too uppity, Curtis. It won't do you any good.

[...]

> >> >> >Define "denier", Curtis. Be specific and clear. Then 
> >> >> >we'll see just how much of an ass you and your fellow 
> >> >> >travelers really are. You dolts are cheap 
> >> >> >propagandists. You fool no one.
> >> >> 
> >> >> I have ad nauseum to you. I'm not going to do it over 
> >> >> and over and over. Read some of these other active 
> >> >> threads and you will find my responses. Get back to me 
> >> >> after to understand.
> >> >
> >> >I _have_ been reading your posts, Curtis. None of them 
> >> >contain your definition of "denier". Maybe these articles 
> >> >haven't reach here yet, so I'll wait a few. (BTW, it's not 
> >> >at Deja News either.)
> >
> >Judging from your reply below, are we to assume that you 
> >were lying when you claimed you have already answered the 
> >question? Or was this just a mistake of some sort?
> 
> I'm answering it again for those with short memories like yourself.

You just can't admit the truth, can you, Curtis?

> >> Deniers are those who deny the holocaust and its facets 
> >> to promote a political agenda of their own. It has nothing 
> >> to do with history. They will play numbers games as you 
> >> have. One of the tactics is to camouflage their goals. They 
> >> will hide the fact that they are on a specific political and 
> >> ideological agenda by stating that all they care about is 
> >> historical truth.
> >
> >Since you've called me a "denier", tell us all exactly what 
> >_my_ "political agenda" is, Curtis. Don't forget to provide 
> >proof for any of your allegations.
> 
> I can only assume what YOUR political agenda is. 

Well, that what I asked for, Curtis.

> I suspect it is much as I've already described. 

What, you mean raise a Nazi party from the ashes, phoenix-like, in a mad bid
to act out Holocaust II: The Sequel? You're a pretty kooky guy, Curtis.

> Frankly, I don't care. I don't much care about you. 

That's OK. I don't ask that you do, Curtis. All I ask is that you kooks answer
questions -- if you are so inclined -- in a clear, direct and honest fashion.
You clowns don't do that, Curtis, and I got tired of watching you play your
games.

> I only know that you act and behave like a denier. 

That's because you're a paranoid kook. But that's stating the obvious.

> You even pretend you are not. 

Image that! People actually protesting their innocence! Why, next thing you
know and these people will start demanding for proof, too! LOL! You're a real
killer, Curtis; you always find new and innovative ways of cracking me up!

> I'm not going to pretend with you. 

No, you are too busy "pretending" that their are evil Nazis (tm), vile
anti-Semites (tm) and diabolical Deniers (tm) all around you. But that's OK
seeing as how good you are at it.

> I'm going to label your on-line personality as I see it.

Yes, you will continue smearing. Don't worry, though! Sooner or later it's
gonna back to you. Hopefully I'll be there to see it so I can have a big,
hearty laugh.

> >> They want to uncover historical falsehoods. 
> >
> >Yes... Did you forget a "don't" here or am I misunderstanding?
> 
> No I did not forget the don't. This is a claim they make.

Care to explain? I'm a little unclear as to what you're trying to say.

> >> Deniers typically play games with historiography by mixing
> >> truth in with outright distortions. Usually what the ideological 
> >> goal is, according to Deborah Lipstadt is fascism and 
> >> anti-Semitism. 
> >
> >Really? What's my "ideological goal", Curtis? I thought I made it 
> >plain that I am against greedy scumbag organizations who suck 
> >money off the Holocaust.
> 
> That's what you pretend, yes. Your actions of late suggest something
> different. 

LOL! I keep telling my friends about you, Curtis, but most of 'em don't
believe me. They think I made you up!

> >> This slick play with historical facts draws in the more ignorant 
> >> and pliable people. Some of that is happening here.
> >
> >Well, all in all it certainly sounds like some monstrous conspiracy, 
> >Curtis. Evil "fascists" plotting the downfall of our righteous 
> >democratic society, twisting and corrupting youths in a vile bid at 
> >world domination and the killing of Jews (or some such). Gee, 
> >sounds just as kooky as those ZOG conspiracies you and you're 
> >pals laugh about... *Gasp!* Surely not?!?
> >
> >LOL! But to be fair, I'm gonna ask you the same questions I 
> >asked John Morris -- who decided not to answer -- about this 
> >YANC (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy). Maybe you'll be brave 
> >enough to supply the answers. Here goes:
> >
> >John Morris said: I know this will come as a shock to your 
> >sheltered sensibilities, Anthony, but there actually are people 
> >who deny the Holocaust and who falsify history in order to 
> >sustain their denial. I can think of no other historical event 
> >which has an organized campaign of denial associated
> >with it.
> >
> >To which I asked: So let's discuss that. What is the scope of 
> >this "campaign"?
> 
> The scope runs from Neo-Nazis to skinheads to the KKK. 

I see. Anyone else?

> >How "organized" do you think they are?
> 
> They have lots of money and fight over it. Read about the 
> recent Carto business and the battle over Edison's money.

At the IHR Web site or the Nizkult? Do you have a specific document in
mind...?

> >When you say they "deny the Holocaust", what exactly to 
> > do mean? (Before answering that you'll have to give us a
> >definition of what "the Holocaust" encompasses.)
> 
> I've defined this for you in the past, Sabatini.

No, you defined it in the previous post. In any case, you must remember these
questions were originally directed at John Morris.

> > And who is this "they"?
> 
> See above.

Well, can you be specific?

> > A conspiracy of some sort?
> 
> Just hate, Sabatini. The kind of hate that you claim to only have
> against Jewish support groups.

I never claimed to "hate" those losers, Curtis. I just despise them as any
healthy person should view good-for-nothing parasites.

But I take you're saying this _is_, if fact, some nefarious conspiracy?

> > Who are its members?
> 
> They could be your neighbor next door. They are any man.

Gee, these guys must have the civilized world shaking in their boots! Are they
anything like S.P.E.C.T.R.E. from the James Bond movies?

> >What do they do to further their cause and how?
> 
> They do what you do, Sabatini.

Oh?

> > Is there one or more leaders involved? Who are these people?
> 
> Read up on the denial groups and get back to me. Start with Deborah
> Lipstadt's _Denying the Holocaust_.

So she talks about this massive conspiracy, too, does she? Maybe it might be
worth reading her book after all.

> >Why do they do what they do?
> 
> Explained above. If you want a book about it, I gave you 
> one to start with.

So Lipstadt explains the inner workings of this malefic cabal, eh?

> > Are they succeeding?
> 
> The biggies ran from this ng? I'd say no. That's my opinion. 
> They do make gains in various quarters. I'm not tuned into 
> the statiistics on their gains. 

Does Lipstadt cite any statistics about this?

> My concern is mostly historical.

No it's not. You're interested in smearing people, Curtis. Remember, you
claimed that there aren't enough (or any) "historical discussions" taking
place here. As such, the only other reason you're hear is to smear and get
your jollies.

> >What effects will their plot(s) entail (both short- and long-term)?
> 
> You tell me.

How should _I_ know? I haven't the foggiest about these malevolent
conspirators. Are they like ZOG or the (legendary) Illuminati? Or are they
more akin to the Free Masons and the Knights Templar?

> >I'll be waiting for your reply, Curtis. Don't chicken out on us, OK?
> 
> You'll probably say I did. 

There you go again showing your biases and preconceived notions. Unlike some
of your kooky pals, I won't run around claiming you didn't answer me just
because I may or may not be completely satisfied with your reply. I leave that
game for Nizkooks.

< end previous message >



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Mon Oct 27 17:22:17 EST 1997
Article: 144966 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: FOR MIKE CURTIS
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net> <19971022181200.OAA02211@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3450600f.455535489@news.jump.net> <01bcdf2c$8c03ddf0$ae56eccd@odin> <3450d5bc.794670@news.demon.co.uk> <3452ec38.688059346@news.jump.net> <3458d368.4294187@news.demon.co.uk> <01bce28b$8137a390$9b938bcf@odin> <3458a3dd.5232489@news.jump.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144966

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3458a3dd.5232489@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
> ><3458d368.4294187@news.demon.co.uk>...
> >> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >> 
> >> >redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> >> >
> >> >[snip]
> >> >
> >> >>>> Sorry. As for the rest of your friends who want to pretend they 
> >> >>>> are something they are not; I've decided not to help them along 
> >> >>>> in their delusions. They can delude themselves on their own 
> >> >>>> without my help.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Does this mean you'll be leaving alt.revisionism sometime soon?
> >> >>
> >> >>Didn't you know Anthony, his main aim in being here is to sneer? So,
> >> >>as long as there is anyone here who is not on his list of friends,
> >> >>there is no reason for him ever to leave. Unless, finally, - with an
> >> >>attack of self-awareness - he realises how silly he looks, and how
> >> >>worthless the postings he makes to those whom he criticizes -
> >> >>whereupon embarrassment may make him go away.
> >> >
> >> >Actually, I don't consider you an enemy. So I guess you are on my list
> >> >of friends. I don't consider Anthony an enemy either. He's on my list
> >> >of juvenile brats.
> >> 
> >> Who spoke of enemies? In a newsgroup? I don't think you will be
> >> sending me a Christmas prezzie though Mike. 
> >
> >Hah! Curtis is too cheap to spring for a couple a bucks to buy a book from
Mr.
> >Bellinger's store. Cheap bastiche!
> 
> The library book is free.

Cheap bastiche!

> >> As to Anthony, he seems to have admirably pointed out
> >> one "error" after another by you in our debating, for 
> >> which I, for one, am grateful. 
> >
> >Oh, you're quite welcome! But truth be told, I was being somewhat selfish
in
> >that I rather enjoy pointing out Curtis' ill-hidden hypocrisy!  ;-)
> 
> I must have missed all this from Sabatini.

Just goes to show how utterly clueless you are, Curtis. Don't worry, though;
no one is surprised.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:27 EST 1997
Article: 144975 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <01bce090$69841eb0$27718bcf@odin> <3450d790.617225006@news.jump.net> <346377b0.4368114@news.demon.co.uk> <34529e87.1566601@news.jump.net> <01bce2f7$c5547fa0$80b113cc@odin> <3454cbcf.15460329@news.jump.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144975

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3454cbcf.15460329@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><34529e87.1566601@news.jump.net>...
> >> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >> 
> >> >mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>Do you understand now?
> >> >>
> >> >>Yes, I understand that you are a denier.
> >> >>
> >> >Well I understand that he must have said more than the one line. With
> >> >your editing and lack of "snip" remarks you make it look as if he is
> >> >saying that he is a denier and you are merely agreeing with him. Is
> >> >that a form of defamation?
> >> 
> >> Fergus, it's the convergence of evidence of his posts. It has nothing
> >> to do with what was snipped.
> >
> >LOL! Curtis uses one of his favorite catch-phrases -- i.e., the nebulous
> >"convergence of evidence" -- to show just how morally bankrupt he really
is.
> >
> >You're a real fruit loop, Curtis! And a lying, smearing hypocrite.
> 
> That's the way to convince people you are not exactly as I say,
> Anthony "denier" Sabatini. 

IOW, you haven't a leg to stand on so you rely on bluster. My, but _I'm_
certainly impressed! Not.

> Get your silly kicks in now for I've found something far more
> prosperous to do with my time than this group.

Truly? You are really leaving us?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:28 EST 1997
Article: 144987 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Certainly not Keren! (was: Anthony, Which Ones Are Honest?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3453173B.628C@concentric.net> <3453D9E4.1710@capital.net>  <34550FD0.980@concentric.net> 
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144987

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> Michael Ives 
> # Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> ## Indeed, Ives' article was extremely dishonest - in
> ## fact, an outright lie. And these people whine about
> ## "quoting out of context".
> 
> # Keren, you're so boring sometimes.  Everytime you say
> # "an ouright lie", it turns out that you're the one lying.
> 
> You snipped the excerpt from Dr. Lomenzo's article:
> 
>  "In effect, the 'quote' rendered by Michael Ives was and
>  is taken out of context as to both intent and meaning as
>  he (Ives) presents same in this specific case".
> 
> Certainly more elegant and restrained than my article,
> but the meaning is the same. And it is clear to every
> objective reader that you made a very dishonest attempt
> to distort Mr. Van Alstine's words.

Keren, I wouldn't talk about "dishonest attempt[s] to distort" other people's
words if I were you. After all, you are one of that art's greatest
practitioners.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:29 EST 1997
Article: 144990 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Keren rants on about Moshe Peer (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <01bce1af$6a7f1110$55a1cdcd@odin>  <01bce282$d2fd1b00$9b938bcf@odin> 
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:144990

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> # What a farce! The goddamn liar claimed to have been 'gassed'
> # AT LEAST SIX TIMES at Bergen-Belsen at the same time as all
> # his friends and a large number of adults. 

[bloody rubbish and a fantastic 'what-if?' scenario to justify Peer's inane
lies]

Shaddup, Ganymede!

You know damn well your hero Moshe is a stinkin' liar!

The old charlatan lives here in Montreal. Do you want me to get you a signed
autograph or something?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:30 EST 1997
Article: 145027 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <01bce2ee$56e45670$80b113cc@odin>  <01bce314$21757c50$120bcdcd@odin> 
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145027

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> # But I did *not* claim I wanted you beaten.
> 
> You claimed that beating Dr. John Morris and myself
> "may be fair payment".

Repeat: "But I did *not* claim I wanted you beaten."

> # You see, I don't understand why I should find it
> # any harder to believe that you have access to an
> # A-bomb than I have the power to throw people in jail.
> 
> You didn't say that you have the power to throw people
> in jail.
> 
> You said that if you had it, you would throw the members
> of the Nizkor project in jail.
> 
> There is really nothing to debate here. Your pathetic
> attempts to deny these very clear statements will not
> work.

Yes, you have already made up your mind to continue smearing. Have it your
way, then, bub.

> You're obviously suffering from some kind of mental
> disturbance, which makes you behave like you do. The
> symptoms are:
> 
> 1) Your insane hatred for "Nizkor", for which you provide
>    no rational reason.

"Hate" is such a strong word. But I _have_ given my reasons, old chap.

> 2) Your total lack of capability to produce one rational
>    statement about the history of the Holocaust (see your
>    comments on the number of victims and the gas chambers).

LOL! You mean the fact that I was right in both cases? Remember:

1. There are nowhere near the physical remains necessary to successfully
determine a death toll (not like anyway even bothered trying to look) for
various reasons, the first and foremost being that forensic science cannot
possibly prove this. As such, we cannot use that method to determine a total
death toll.

2. You do not have true engineering plans of a gas chamber, nor do you have an
operations manual of some sort. Instead, we are forced to rely on other forms
of evidence to prove the existence of these chambers including, of course,
eyewitness testimonies.

Are these statements true or false? Choose one of these possible answers only.

> 3) Your endless diatribe, hysterical rants, and insults
>    directed at practically everyone on this group who is
>    not a Nazi propagandist.

No sir. I treat as treated. Since you've acted like a mad dog with me at
times, what did you expect? Flowers and honey?

> I cannot see how to help you. 

All you need do is answer my questions -- if you are so inclined, of course --
to the best of your ability and in a direct and truthful manner.

> Every attempt to be polite and patient with you backfired. 
> No matter how much I -  and some other people - try, it's 
> just no use.

Aw, gimme a freakin' break, O Martyr! Are you saying you couldn't have been a
little nicer at times? Are you claiming that you continuously try to smear me
in an effort to "help me"? Look, the times you have acted like a decent fellow
I replied in kind and you know it. This is appreciated, but please don't make
it seems as if you've been a paragon of angelic benevolence, OK?

> Have it your way then. As long as you want to be a piece
> of dreck, that's exactly what you will be, and people will
> treat you accordingly. If you ever decide to become a
> decent human being, do let us know. Over and out.

Clap. Clap. Clap. Pretty speech. Now back to reality.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:30 EST 1997
Article: 145031 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Details on a diabolical conspiracy here (was: Phillips vs Mock III)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bce2f5$12faea30$80b113cc@odin>  <01bce323$88c5dbc0$84b113cc@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145031

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce323$88c5dbc0$84b113cc@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Daniel Keren  wrote in article
> > ...
> > > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > > 
> > > # I asked for a very specific piece of evidence; i.e.,
> > > # engineering plans
> > > 
> > > The plans exist, 
> > 
> > Hint for the eternally cluess: "I asked for a very specific 
> > piece of evidence; i.e., engineering plans". *These* plans 
> > do not exist.
> 
> Aside from the fact that architectural construction drawings, 
> invoices, and SS memorandum and letters etc. show 
> otherwise; can Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini 
> prove that "engineering plans" do not indeed exist? IOW, is 
> Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini claiming to have
> "proven" a negtative? 

What a blockhead. Shout all you want. Stomp your little feet. Beat your chest.
Pound your head against the wall. You do no have regular engineering plans for
a gas chamber of the type normally used in construction. What you have is bits
and pieces of other types of proofs (listed above) and eyewitness testimony. I
make no claims regarding these other kinds of evidence, but what I do know is
that you haven't got regular, everyday engineering plans for a gas chamber.
Are you still confused, doofus?

> My, what a pillar of "Revisionist scholar" "logic" Anthony "beat 
> 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini is! ROTFL!

Aye, unlike a lowly scurvy-laden jackanapes such as yourself!

> > > the inventory exists, numerous documents
> > > for the ventilation system and the cremation furnaces
> > > exist. The concepts "gassing cellar" and "gas chamber"
> > > are in the documents. The gas-tight and reinforced door
> > > is mentioned. The introduction devices are mentioned.
> > > The HCN gas detectors are mentioned. Even the shower
> > > heads, put in to fool the victims, are mentioned. The
> > > "undressing room", in which the victims undressed 
> > > before entering the gas chamber, is mentioned. And 
> > > there is more.
> > 
> > I don't know what language to write in to make you 
> > understand, but I'll try once more in English.
> > 
> > At this point and time, I am only interested in discovering 
> > whether engineering plans of the kind normally used in a 
> > construction project.
> 
> They are the architectural drawings used to build the Kremas 
> with. IOW, they are the Bauleitung (and other) drawings and 
> such of the Kremas. Drawings that include L.Keller 1. Os this 
> simple concept- that the Auschwitz SS used the architectural 
> drawings they made the "engineering plans of the kind 
> normally used in a construction project" -too deep for 
> Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini? 
> 
> Evidently so! 

Keep repeating it, loser, but it won't make it true.

> > You don't have them....
> 
> Once more, real slow now, for Anthony "beat 'em with a 
> pickaxe" Sabatini: 
> 
> B-a-u-le-i-t-u-n-g  c-o-n-s-t-r-u-c-t-i-o-n  d-r-a-w-i-n-g-s.  

"Hoot on, O baboon!"

> > ...Curtis admitted as much. 
> 
> What Mr. Curtis "admitted" was that no matter _what_ was 
> presented to Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini, he 
> would dismiss them out of hand. 

More word games. Why can't you kooks be honest with anything?

> And Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini, like the 
> ignorant knee-jerk scumbag denier moron he is, has. 

What twaddle!

> > Yes, you have _other_ evidence, and I don't deny this. 
> 
> Oh, no, Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini does "not 
> deny this" -he simply _dismisses_ this without the slightest 
> (credible basis for doing so! 

Dolt. I am only "dismissing" for the purpose of _my_ point which is simply
that normal engineering plans are nowhere to be found.

> > We will get to this stuff later.
> 
> Sure Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini will. 
> When (Nazi) pigs fly! 

No one has ever, to my recollection, ever accused you of being able to take
flight. At least not with wings and in the air.

> > Do you understand?
> 
> Crystal clear. Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini, 
> being an ignorant knee-jerk scumbag denier moron, can't 
> deal with the evidence presented. Nothing new there! 

Markie-pooh continues to rage, but few -- if any -- are impressed.

Gnash them teeth, baby! *Grind* 'em! Hee, hee, hee!

> > > Now - will you kindly stop being such a blithering 
> > > imbecile?
> > 
> > I was only attempting to dumb down the language to 
> > your level, Keren. 
> 
> Obviously, Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini 
> went a tad too far -he dumbed it down to _his_ level! 
> ROTFL!

Ah! So _that's_ where I lost you! I shall endeavor to lower the level further
until I am able to reach you down there in the nether-depths.

> > I see I will have to stoop lower to make one such 
> > as you understand.
> 
> Maybe then Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini 
> will understand? Naaah.

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) sent off to find engineering plans. They won't
be back.]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:31 EST 1997
Article: 145032 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Holocaust Calendar: October 24
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <62pa0l$rv$1@news.trends.ca> <01bce094$6af4eff0$27718bcf@odin> <345c7441.3488624@news.demon.co.uk> <34544162.1090973@news.jump.net> <3468f593.13042776@news.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce34b$3cc706e0$a6948bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.86.100
Date: 28 Oct 97 02:47:36 GMT
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Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.theriver.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.86.100
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145032

Fergus McClelland  wrote in article
<3468f593.13042776@news.demon.co.uk>...
> mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> 
> >redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) wrote:
> >
> >>"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >>
> >>>[newsgroups trimmed to alt.revisionism]
> >>>
> >>>Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote in article
> >>><62pa0l$rv$1@news.trends.ca>...
> >>>> [Follow-ups set]
> >>>> 
> >>>> October 24
> >>>> 
> >>>> 1944
> >>>> 
> >>>> A transport of three hundred prisoners, a third of whom are
> >>>> Jewish, 
> >>>
> >>>How about the others, Mr. McVay? The other two thirds of the prisoners.
Why
> >>>mention only the Jewish ones, Mr. McVay?
> >>
> >>Anthony, don't you know the answer? The other mere two-thirds were
> >>only people, so their deaths were not an act against God, merely one
> >>against man. I think.
> >
> >And you think incorrectly but what else is new with you, Fergus?
> 
> Runnig around picking Mr Curtis? Being provocative? Childish insults
> Mr Curtis? Downward spiral thy name is Curtis.

LOL! Curtis is *once again* hoist on his own petard!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:32 EST 1997
Article: 145033 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Attention: Michael Ives (was: Anthony, Which Ones Are Honest?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3453173B.628C@concentric.net> <01bce230$19448600$d9b113cc@odin> <34542114.1699@concentric.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 28 Oct 97 02:53:15 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145033

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<34542114.1699@concentric.net>...
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:

[...]

> > I'll try to find someone who can act as a go-between so we 
> > can get each other's e-mail address if that's OK with you.
> 
> I nominate Thomas Stedham.  I think he has integrity.

Michael, Mr. Stedham has kindly agreed to help us. Just send him an e-mail
with your real address and he'll forward it to me. Likewise, he'll send you
mine.

[.sig shortened. A lot.]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:33 EST 1997
Article: 145043 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: - LK1 drainage.jpg (1/1) for Mr. "Beat 'em with a pickaxe"
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce346$9dd04820$a6948bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.139.148.166
Date: 28 Oct 97 02:14:23 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145043

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> BEGIN -- Cut Here -- cut hereEND -- Cut Here -- cut here

Ah! _Now_ we getting somewhere. Keep posting this kinda stuff, Markie-pooh,
not that other, circumstantial crap you usually do. Good boy!


Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:33 EST 1997
Article: 145059 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Sabatini - Hostilities, Civilities and Apologies (Was: Re: Grese on Trial)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
References: <342234bc.183772769@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc510$42ef0300$7537eccd@odin> <3422b4ac.3188284@news.jump.net> <01bcc527$0487db20$687acdcd@odin> <342499ab.35048660@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc6a2$497dbcf0$daa1cdcd@odin> <34257dc6.1755354@news.uniserve.com> <34528bc3.5972379@news.hrc-counsel.net> <01bce1b2$8c7ad620$55a1cdcd@odin> <3453101B.88@concentric.net> <3452f180.53052991@news.uniserve.com> <3453d07a.9155667@news.hrc-counsel.net> <01bce293$dbfca9d0$9b938bcf@odin> <347423ff.16648753@news.hollinet.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce353$6248f330$a6948bcf@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.86.100
Date: 28 Oct 97 03:46:02 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145059 alt.politics.white-power:100243

Michael  wrote in article
<347423ff.16648753@news.hollinet.com>...
> On 27 Oct 97 04:55:00 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini" 
wrote:
> >Daniel Jonah Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz  wrote
in
> >article <3453d07a.9155667@news.hrc-counsel.net>...
> >> On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:34:23 GMT, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
> >> wrote:
>  
> >> >Oh, dear!  Another one who pretends to know as much 
> >> >about me and my life ......
>  
> >> >hro
>  
> >> Woman, I don't care what you think about Jews or the 
> >> Holocaust and I don't give a hoot too much about your 
> >> private life. I want you to post a real hot cheesecake 
> >> photo of yourself in a 1940s style Betty Grable swimsuit 
> >> and show all of these guys what hot stuff I know you are!
> >> Come on baby don't be shy. I want to see some skin!
>  
> >> 				Sincerely yours,
> >> 			     Daniel Jonah Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz
> 
> >Mr. Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz, you are obviously insane 
> >judging from your strange and utterly appalling request. 
> >Seek professional help ASAP.
> 
> >In the meantime, and in the hopes of starting you along the 
> >road to recovery, I'm enclosing a JPEG image of the kind of 
> >babes you should be interested in. Once again, however, I 
> >will include a picture of the Ostroll so you can see the 
> >difference.
> 
> A picture of the Ostroll?? Oh no! Not that!! 

I'm sorry, but drastic measures are required to quell the tide of madness
swirling in Mr. Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz's mind. He must be made to confront
his problem for his own good. Alas, I fear it may be too late...  :-(

> Your mean streak is starting to show, Mr. Sabatini.



> You did include the standard "Warning: Entering Life 
> Threating Area" didn't you?

Shit! I knew I forgot something! OK, to make up for it, here's a pic of a
"bikini-clad babe" _without_ the horrors of the Ostroll to atone for my error.
Enjoy!

[.sig dropped]


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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren rants on about Moshe Peer (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Date: 28 Oct 1997 03:27:55 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <01bce350$bd1107b0$a6948bcf@odin>
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <01bce1af$6a7f1110$55a1cdcd@odin>  <01bce282$d2fd1b00$9b938bcf@odin>  <01bce331$9ea1fc90$2b56eccd@odin> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.86.100
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145062

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce331$9ea1fc90$2b56eccd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Daniel Keren  wrote in article
> > ...
> > > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> > > 
> > > # What a farce! The goddamn liar claimed to have been 'gassed'
> > > # AT LEAST SIX TIMES at Bergen-Belsen at the same time as all
> > > # his friends and a large number of adults. 
> > 
> > [bloody rubbish and a fantastic 'what-if?' scenario to justify Peer's
inane
> > lies]
> > 
> > Shaddup, Ganymede!

Did I ask you to speak, Markie-pooh?

No, so shaddup!

[the Savage Fairy's incoherent rambling, his silly .sig and usual VanSlander
(tm) beaten with a pick axe handle and tossed in jail]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:36 EST 1997
Article: 145064 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <345a71af.2830902@news.demon.co.uk> <3457447c.1885017@news.jump.net> <01bce27f$f082a8f0$9b938bcf@odin> <3456a268.4859730@news.jump.net> <01bce322$04255540$84b113cc@odin> <345f6488.33128091@news.v-wave.com>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145064

John Morris  wrote in article
<345f6488.33128091@news.v-wave.com>...
> In <01bce322$04255540$84b113cc@odin>, on 27 Oct 97 21:52:20 GMT,
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >No, dummy. Contrary to your pompous beliefs, this 
> >newsgroup does not solely exist to discuss the historicity 
> >of the Holocaust; it's also the ideal place to discuss the 
> >mendacious misuses which it put to. These are two separate
> >issues, Curtis, regardless of how loudly you protest.
> 
> And you treat them as the same issue regardless of how 
> loudly you protest.

Well, that is certainly not my intent.

> I note from the rest of your text that you have found the 
> Montreal Gazette article on Peer. Have you called Seidman? 
> Have you called Peer to find out what his story is? 

And what, pray tell, should I ask him? Do you want me to go bother the old
bugger (he's 65+) with stuff like, "Excuse me, sir, but why have you been
lying all this time about your experiences during the War?"

> Have you managed to get hold of a pick-axe handle?

Oh, so you didn't get enough the last time, I see...  ;-)

[.sig trimmed down _real_ fast]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:37 EST 1997
Article: 145065 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <345a71af.2830902@news.demon.co.uk> <3457447c.1885017@news.jump.net> <01bce27f$f082a8f0$9b938bcf@odin> <3456a268.4859730@news.jump.net> <345e5be0.30911924@news.v-wave.com>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145065

John Morris  wrote in article
<345e5be0.30911924@news.v-wave.com>...
> In <3456a268.4859730@news.jump.net>, on Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:20:44 GMT,
> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

[...]

> >He has a book? What's it called? I've never heard of it. 
> 
> _Inoubliable Bergen-Belsen_. So far as I know, it has never been
> published.

He promotes the bloody thing when on 'tour' at local synagogues!

[...]

> >What historians use this Peer stuff? I know, you don't care that he
> >isn't used. 
> 
> No historians refer to Peer. In fact, Peer would today be a complete
> unknown had Orest Slepokura not been so diligent in rooting out
> potential antisemitica from the back pages of the Montreal Gazette.

My God, but you have a knack for the melodramatic!

> Peer's sole claim to fame, in fact, is a single article on August 5,
> 1993 in the West Island News section of the Montreal Gazette. Peer
> gave a talk to a synagogue youth group which was reported on by Karen
> Seidman. Seidman told me when I called her in January 1996 that
> several readers called in the days that followed her report
> complaining that Peer's claims were quite impossible, not least
> because there was no mass gassing at Bergen-Belsen.
> 
> It's a local call for Anthony. He can check with Seidman herself by
> calling the West Island Bureau of the Gazette.

What am I supposed to ask about? You want an autograph, too?

> So far as I know, Peer's book, entitled _Inoubliable Bergen-Belsen_,
> has not been published. Not that Anthony will care so long as he can
> claim that Peer has profited from its sale.

Peer runs around at local synagogues promoting his book. What would Seidman
know him other than her article? Do you think she keeps track of the quack?

> But if Anthony is so upset by Moshe Peer, he can always get a pick-axe
> handle from somewhere and go and visit Peer in Montreal. That, too,
> will be a local call.

Bloody snottish Westerner!

[.sig belted. Hard]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:38 EST 1997
Article: 145070 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Again, how the numbers came to be (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin> <3455508c$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145070

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<3455508c$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin>, on 10/27/97 
>    at 05:24 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> 
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin>, on 10/26/97 
> > >    at 03:17 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > > 
> > > Anthony, you have "discovered" me again, after 
> > > ignoring me so long.  :-)
> 
> > Sorry, but I certainly haven't been doing it on purpose! I _like_
> > talking with you.
> 
> What are you going to do if Mike Curtis leaves?  :-)

Nothing much. I read his goodbye post. No big loss as far as I'm concerned.

[...]

> > > I can only speak for myself.  I am ignorant as hell about 
> > > that part of the research, so I stay out of it.  I normally 
> > > only insert myself in areas where I have at least a little 
> > > knowledge.
> 
> > Great, and I appreciate your honesty. Too bad the Nizkooks don't
> > follow your example!  :-(
> 
> I thought I was a Nizkook too?  :-)  

Maybe _sometimes_...  ;-)

[...]

> > > I think you had better re-read Mike Stein's posts.  I think 
> > > he saids that more than one method was used to establish 
> > > the figures.  If he didn't, he should have.  
> 
> > "Kurt, I realize you and Giwer have problems with reading 
> > above the fourth grade level, but do try to pay attention here.  
> > The six million number for Jewish deaths was a rounded-up 
> > figure for the difference in prewar European Jewish population 
> > and postwar European Jewish population which could not be 
> > accounted for by emigration.  Since the figures were derived 
> > based on countries, not camps, and population differences, not
> > counted deaths, adjusting the death toll for any one camp does 
> > not change a figure which never was based on camps." - Mike 
> > Stein in article <594k77$nbk@access5.digex.net>.
> 
> > And then:
> 
> > "The answer, BTW, is that the six million total was not computed 
> > by adding up the totals for all camps, but rather by population 
> > loss." - Mike Stein in article <5fc9qb$c8n@access4.digex.net>.
> 
> > And again:
> 
> > "I will merely add that the six million figure always was a 
> > rounded-up number from 5.7 or 5.8 million, I forget which.  
> > Hilberg's lower numbers are computed on a slightly different 
> > meaning of "victim" - the higher number was the net loss in 
> > population after known emigration was accounted for, but not 
> > all of those dead were specifically murdered as Jews.  Some 
> > died in their beds of natural causes; some were anonymous
> > war casualties, either civilian or military, who died side by 
> > side with Gentiles." - Mike Stein in article 
> > <5a4dne$4kb@access1.digex.net>.
> 
> > And one more from article <5lohq1$r0e@access5.digex.net>:
> 
> > < begin quote >
> 
> > [Me:]
> > >It seems that more than one person here has claimed 
> > >that the Holocaust death toll was reached by population 
> > >analysis.
> 
> > [Mike Stein:]
> > I believe that is only clearly true for the Jewish death toll.  
> > The others are a grab bag.  For example, homosexual death 
> > tolls would be hard to reach by population analysis, but they 
> > make up a chunk of the non-Jewish part of the 12 million.
> 
> > < end quote >
> 
> > Now I'm not picking on Mike here, nor am I trying to show 
> > him up or anything. It's simply that I trust something he says 
> > more than anything that comes out of, say, Curtis' mouth.
> 
> I'll ignore that last phrase.  I didn't say Mike had *not* said that the
> 6 million was derived from population analysis; I said that he did not
> say that population analysis was the *only* way the figure was derived. 

Well, that's sure the way it sounds!

> Camp death counts are one way.  Railway logs,

Yes, but don't these work the same way as the population analysis? Don't they
subtract what comes out from what went in? Or it is simply the number that
went in?

> and a lot of the Eichmann IV B 4 records are another.  

What is "IV B 4"?

> Jewish chronicles are a third.  

What is/are "Jewish chronicles"?

> Anyway, Mike can speak for himself.

I saw one brief message from his today. But other than that, I haven't seen
him around in a while.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:39 EST 1997
Article: 145074 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Details on a diabolical conspiracy here (was: Phillips vs Mock III)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bce2f5$12faea30$80b113cc@odin>  <01bce323$88c5dbc0$84b113cc@odin>  <01bce34a$e80be530$a6948bcf@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce361$067d0240$787acdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145074

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce34a$e80be530$a6948bcf@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:

[VanBraying (tm) snipped]

> > What you have is bits and pieces of other types of proofs 
> > (listed above) and eyewitness testimony. I make no claims 
> > regarding these other kinds of evidence, but what I do 
> > know is that you haven't got regular, everyday engineering 
> > plans for a gas chamber. Are you still confused, doofus?
> 
> Again, I have presented are regular architectural drawings etc. 
> that were used to construct L.Keller 1 -a homicidal gas chamber. 
> That fact will not go away no matter how many temper 
> tantrums 

LOL! The Savage Fairy doth speak of "temper tantrums"! Witless berserker.

> Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini because 
> he it too ignorant and hate-filled to deal wwith them. 

Quit sputtering. What is the filename of what you are braying about here?

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) sprayed with a can of Raid (tm)]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misanthropic ass, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 09:14:40 EST 1997
Article: 145093 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkooks Exposed
Date: 28 Oct 1997 06:13:02 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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Message-ID: <01bce367$cea9c360$787acdcd@odin>
References: <344e04bb.432151800@news.jump.net> <3453a330$11$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce28a$516307a0$9b938bcf@odin> <345558ad$10$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <633v23$k1r$1@news.trends.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.122.120
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145093

Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote in article
<633v23$k1r$1@news.trends.ca>...
> In article <345558ad$10$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>,
> Gord McFee   wrote:
> 
> [something some nameless twit opined]

Are you babbling about Curtis' inane mutterings, old man? Speak up!

> >> Thanks, Gord. Seeing Nizkooks exposed is one of 
> >> those little pleasures in life.
> 
> >I'm not touching that line with a ten-foot pole.
> 
> Now, look, McFeestein, you know very well that, at the end 
> of the Chicago Gathering, 13 Nizkooks exposed their 
> forearms to the television cameras. You were THERE, pally, 
> so don't deny it.

This must be one of the intellectual "historical discussion" Gord tells me
McVay engages in.

Why don't you hit us with more of your canned quasi-spam, McVay? It's
been...what? A whole day already! You're behind schedule, old man! Wake up!

[free plug axed]

Oh, and lest any forget:

"The League continues to monitor hate on the Internet and to propose
educational curricula and policy development to regulate, in some way, the
transmission of hateful messages. The League is working closely with Ken
McVay's Nizkor Project (http://www.nizkor.org) through the "Holocaust and
Hope" program. The League and Nizkor have prepared a workbook entitled Hate
and the Internet: Selected Readings to assist in workshops on assist in
workshops on this topic. The creation of a B'nai web site
(http://www.bnaibrith.ca) facilitates the dissemination of information to
counter hate and also provides a means of reporting incidents directly to the
National Office."

Source: B'nai Brith's propaganda-rife 1996 'Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents'



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 11:10:01 EST 1997
Article: 145137 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: The mendacious mis-uses of the Holocaust (was: Yet another round of Gobbledi-talk (tm))
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <34332cc3.1878048@news.demon.co.uk>  <344AEA32.3289C049@aol.com> <01bcddcc$41758920$6e55eccd@odin>  <345021B7.4638@concentric.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 24 Oct 97 02:02:21 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145137

Michael Ives  wrote in article
<345021B7.4638@concentric.net>...
> Daniel Keren wrote:
> > "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> 
> > # That's fine, but this issue is not only one of the U.S. helping
> > # Israel. You are right that the States didn't help them out at
> > # that time,
> 
> Anthony, did you really say this?  Did you miss the following exchange
> in another branch of this thread?

Yes, I did. Thanks for the re-post, Michael.

> Daniel Keren wrote:
> > 
> > Michael Ives  writes:
> > # Daniel Keren wrote:
> > 
> > ## Also, to the best of my knowledge, the US hardly helped Israel
> > ## during its most difficult period - the 1948 war; it began
> > ## sending military equipment to Israel only in the late 1960's.
> > 
> > # The best of Keren's knowledge isn't too good then, which comes
> > # as no surprise.  President Harry S Truman recognized the
> > # legitimacy of the imperialist enterprise in Palestine only hours
> > # after its proclamation in 1948, becoming the first world leader
> > # to do so.  This, as can be seen from the relevant document,
> > # occurred even before that enterprise had a name: the typewritten
> > # document recognizes "the Jewish state" which was later crossed
> > # out by pen and overwritten "Israel".

By "pen"? Did you say, "pen"?

> > Totally irrelevant. I was talking about military support. As
> > far as I know, nearly all of Israel's weapons were of French
> > and British make - until the late 1960's. For instance, all
> > of Israel's air force, until that period, was composed of
> > French planes.
> 
> That the "leader of the free world" gave his imprimateur to the
> imperialist adventure in Palestine within mere hours of its 
> proclamation conferred a perceived legitimacy that no money 
> could buy.  (But who knows, maybe money did buy it.)  At any 
> rate, guns could be (and were) bought anywhere.  But the 
> stamp of approval of the United States of America was 
> irreplaceable.  "Totally irrelevant"?  I don't think so.  
> 
> Now other countries have indeed contributed arms to the 
> Zionist enterprise, and France is a good example.  Without 
> France, for instance, there would probably be no weapons of 
> mass destruction in the Middle East.  Some accomplishment.  
> It's certainly odd that the prospect of mass murder is so 
> enticing to the same people who claim to have been a
> victim of it some years before.
> 
> > # The document resides in the National Archives in 
> > # Washington, D.C.
> > 
> > As do many other interesting documents.
> 
> Some of them even pertain to the United States, however hard 
> that may be for you to swallow.

Excellent post, Michael.

The entire point of this thread is to show how the Holocaust has indeed been
used for monetary, military and political gain, as well as how it is cunningly
used as tool for inducing guilt.

[.sigs snipped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 11:10:02 EST 1997
Article: 145140 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Again, how the numbers came to be (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin> <3455508c$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce360$3bfb6cf0$787acdcd@odin> <6342h1$ome$2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce3b4$eea09110$db7acdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.122.219
Date: 28 Oct 97 15:23:49 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145140

Richard Schultz  wrote in article
<6342h1$ome$2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>...
> I still think that the easiest way that Mr. Sabatini could demonstrate
> what he considers to be an acceptable method for estimating the number
> of dead in the Holocaust by providing his own estimates for any or
> all of the following (and how he arrived at his numbers):
> 
> (1) The number killed in the firebombing of Dresden in WWII

14 deaths, 182 injuries.

> (2) The number killed during Stalin's regime

946,923,230 death, 81 injuries.

> (3) The number who died of the influenza pandemic after WWI

0 deaths (they all recovered)

> (4) The number who died during the Black Plague 

2,409 deaths (but over 100,000,000 dead and 22 injured rats)

> That he will never ever answer a straightforward question such as this
> one has been noted.  I draw certain conclusions from that refusal, but
> I'm sure that the readers of the newsgroup can reach their own.

That Mr. Schultz will never ever answer a straightforward question other than
by bringing up canards such as various death tolls of other historical events
has been noted. I draw certain conclusions from that refusal, but I'm sure
that the readers of the newsgroup can reach their own.

[.sig warped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 15:25:15 EST 1997
Article: 145144 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.85.113
Date: 24 Oct 97 00:47:52 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145144

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
> >...
> >> In article <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> >> Does Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini mean like:
> 
> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/
> >documents/pressac/bau-2003-keller.jpg
> 
> >Those are floor plans, you moron! You have been asked to 
> >produce plans for a *gas chamber*, along with an operations 
> >manual or something of that nature. What a lying piece of...
> >well, you know.
> 
> Yup, here's the reply. Nothing will be good enough for these guys,
> Mark. It won't matter if you explain it to them like a child, it'll
> still be not good enough.

LOL! What a transparent evasion! Curtis, you must really think people are
stupid; otherwise, why bother with such a facile lie? You kooks were asked to
present the engineering plans and/or an operations manual for a *gas chamber*,
not layouts of the floor plan of a crematoria! If you cannot see the
difference, I fear you are beyond help. But I suspect you are merely playing
dumb again, at game at which you excel.

It is becoming more and more obvious that you haven't got these plans, nor an
operations manual. As usual, you're hard, solid evidence is lacking but you
are more than willing to make up for that with personal beliefs.

> >> ...And in which Bischoff, in a letter to Kammler, referred to 
> >> L.Keller 1 not as a Leichenskeller but as a _Vergasungskeller_ 
> >> -i.e. as a gassing cellar? 
> >> 
> >> See: 
> >> 
> >> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/bischoff.002
> >> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/a/abels.nele/vergasungskeller-essay
> >
> >Very nice, but *still* no plans. Is anyone surprised?
> 
> Makes one wonder if Sabatini tried to understand any of it.

I look at the _floor plans_ and read the documents (including a few others at
the Nizkult), Curtis. None of it was what you were asked for. You know that,
Curtis. I wonder why you're playing such a transparent game...?

> I also see that Phillips will pretend he didn't see this for 
> he's not going to post to Mark. 

Hope for your sake that Mr. Phillips does not see the floor plans you've
presented. If he does, he's liable to bust a gut from laughter.

> What a hoot these guys are.

Not nearly as entertaining as watching you kooks run around in a vain attempt
at damage control whenever you're shown up.

Let's tally this up. So far, we have:

1. No viable means of obtaining human remains that will reasonably shed light
as to the total number of deaths claimed for the Holocaust.

2. No plans and/or operations manual for a gas chamber.

[.sig belted. A lot.]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 15:25:16 EST 1997
Article: 145145 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net> <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin> <34510e91.679318@news.jump.net> <01bce0a0$900c5dd0$27718bcf@odin> <3453ed29.688300080@news.jump.net> <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin> <34539fcd$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce288$de0ee900$9b938bcf@odin> <34555655$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce3b6$8a1c1320$db7acdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.122.219
Date: 28 Oct 97 15:35:20 GMT
Lines: 64
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!News.NetUSA.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.122.219
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145145

Gord McFee  wrote in article
<34555655$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> In <01bce288$de0ee900$9b938bcf@odin>, on 10/27/97 
>    at 03:35 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <34539fcd$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...

[...]

> > > Fess up, Anthony.  
> 
> > *Gasp!* Surely not another YANC?!? (Yet Another Nazi 
> > Conspiracy)
> 
> *Gasp!*  Are you admitting you are a Nazi?

Naw. Nazis are too wimpy compared to my political ideas.  :-O

> > > Your 11 million bodies thread was taken straight from
> > > the IHR 66 Q&Rs, 
> 
> > Not at all. I assume that you folks have _already_ argued 
> > all there is between the Web pages. No, I'm asking questions 
> > that *I* want answered to *my* satisfaction. I'm tired of 
> > reading FAQs, counter-FAQs and all that crap.
> 
> Then why did you repeat what was in the IHR Q&A virtually 
> verbatim?

I couldn't care less what is in the "IHR Q&A".

> > > and this latest is the Greg Raven "unless you show me a
> > > gas chamber, I will not believe" line.  
> 
> > Nope. How many times have I gotta say that I'm asking 
> > questions the _way_ *I* want, and I won't be happy with 
> > the standard, "Go see the following document at Nizkor".
> 
> Then why did you repeat the Raven line virtually verbatim?

Which line is that, specifically? But more importantly, why should I care who
else asked the question?

> > > Why are you simply spouting denier canards?
> 
> > Asking to be shown evidence is *not* a "canard" no matter 
> > how many times you say it. Besides, I get to show people 
> > just what the Nizkook's have got.
> 
> Asking to be shown evidence that you know does not exist in 
> the form you demand it is pretty damned close to a denier 
> canard, 

No, not really. It's all about debunking some commonly-held myths perpetrated
by Nizkooks.

> since both examples come from deniers.  Why, 
> remember the 11 mill...  Oops!  I'm not supposed 
> to mention that.

Yes, don't get me started on that one again!  ;-)

[.sig dropped]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 15:25:16 EST 1997
Article: 145165 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <34571b0d.2543887@news.demon.co.uk>  <345e2583.3550823@news.demon.co.uk> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce3d3$765974f0$90a2cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.144
Date: 28 Oct 97 19:02:22 GMT
Lines: 25
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.cs.ucla.edu!news.greennet.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.162.144
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145165

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
> 
> # I posted a fairly long jocular message to some friends
> # in a support group.
> 
> [...]
> 
> # except that that one line was an obvious joke in context,
> 
> You know very well that I did not mean that line, but
> the one about the "substantial physical harm", which
> you included in your reply to me:
> 
>   "But, like Pandora, he wants the box opened, even if it
>   were to mean substantial physical harm to himself".

And of course, the self-delusional paranoid Keren twisted this to diabolic
proportions. No surprise, really.

Remember:

"F**k the horse." - Danuel Keren



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 15:25:17 EST 1997
Article: 145171 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Date: 28 Oct 1997 19:26:52 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <01bce3d6$baf583d0$90a2cdcd@odin>
References: <01bcc8f8$0c6dd360$a37acdcd@odin> <01bce1ad$99b5edc0$55a1cdcd@odin>  <345f2814.4207351@news.demon.co.uk> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.144
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145171

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> [To Sabatini]
> 
> ## This is simply a lie. You have clearly stated that,
> ## if it was up to you, you'd throw the "Nizkor"
> ## contributors in jail. These are *your* words. You
> ## said them. I am only quoting them.
> 
> # Being literalistic Ganymede. A bit like the dog that
> # eats people? Show me the difference between your
> # literalism and Brian Smith's. I think that, judging by
> # his usual style, if Mr Sabatini had meant that
> # comment as anything other than a joke he would have
> # said so and argued the point continually.
> 
> I have yet to see him argue about anything. He rants.

LOL! What have _you_ "argued", Ganymede? Be specific and cite message-IDs.

> He does not argue. He said it and he meant it. It is
> common to assume that people mean what they write.

You mean like when you commanded some poor guy to have sex with a horse? Were
you projecting your desires at the time or what?

> # But you are using his joke deliberately.
> 
> Prove that it was a joke and I will stop using it.

Prove that you don't want to screw horses.



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 15:25:18 EST 1997
Article: 145172 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Details on a diabolical conspiracy here (was: Phillips vs Mock III)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bce2f5$12faea30$80b113cc@odin> <01bce323$88c5dbc0$84b113cc@odin>  <3455d71d.0@news.primary.net> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce3d5$09c47360$90a2cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.144
Date: 28 Oct 97 19:13:39 GMT
Lines: 68
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.162.144
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145172

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> Alex Vange  writes:
> 
> # When Mr. Leuchter examined the rooms he found no evidence
> # of a ventilation system that would be need for homicidal
> # gassings.
> 
> Yes. But this is the same Leuchter who claims to be an
> engineer, though he holds only a BA in the arts. 

And you, who holds a degree in Computer Science, also make grandiose
statements concerning gas chambers. Strange, that...

> This is the same Leuchter who claimed that the HCN 
> gas would "rise towards the SS-men and kill them" 
> (he never heard about gas masks, routinely used 
> when working with Zyklon-B). Etc.

How many and where were these "gas masks" found, if any?

> AFAIK, the "revisionists" do not deny that these cellars
> had ventilation systems.
> 
> # Revisionists have agreed to the gassing cellar term
> # used in a document, so I can accept that as possibly
> # authentic. Why can't it have some other explanation,
> # such as the cellar in which the insecticide Zyklon B
> # was stored?
> 
> Because "gassing cellar" (vergasungskeller) means "a cellar
> in which gassing takes place". Your "explanation" is, at least,
> the fifth one offered by "revisionists". 

Is it?

> They used to claim that it meant "a room in which a mixture 
> of gas and air for the furnaces was prepared" - although the 
> furnaces used coke (!!). As horribly idiotic as this "explanation" 
> was, it was accepted by the "revisionist" community for about
> 20 years.

Who or what is this "revisionist community"? Are they part of the diabolical
conspiracy that is the topic of this thread? You know, the ones with the
malefic plot who's goal is who-knows-what.

In case you've forgotten, here's a reminder:

John Morris said: I know this will come as a shock to your sheltered
sensibilities, Anthony, but there actually are people who deny the Holocaust
and who falsify history in order to sustain their denial. I can think of no
other historical event which has an organized campaign of denial associated
with it.

To which I asked: So let's discuss that. What is the scope of  this
"campaign"? How "organized" do you think they are? When you say they "deny the
Holocaust", what exactly to do mean? (Before answering that you'll have to
give us a definition of what "the Holocaust" encompasses.) And who is this
"they"? A conspiracy of some sort? Who are its members? What do they do to
further their cause and how? Is there one or more leaders involved? Who are
these people? Why do they do what they do? Are they succeeding? What effects
will their plot(s) entail (both short- and long-term)?

I encourage others interested in this malefic cabal to add to the questions I
asked.

[...]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Tue Oct 28 15:25:19 EST 1997
Article: 145177 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goodbye
Date: 28 Oct 1997 19:38:52 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <01bce3d8$6a0fc230$90a2cdcd@odin>
References: <3454f9b7.27213762@news.jump.net> <3455A06D.719D@concentric.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.144
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145177

Chuck Ferree  wrote in article
...
> Chuck Ferree wrote:
> 
> To be expected. Ives simply can't help himself. Ives is 
> a cheapshot artist, sans talent. 

LOL! Chuck, if I were you I'd take that last statement back...

> Mike Curtis fought the good fight. 

What "good fight"? Have you been watching re-runs of Rocky IV again?

> He kicked more dumbass deniers, proving them wrong. 

Would that be more or less times than he ended up "kicking" _himself_?

> Most denier turkeys were scared to mix it up with Mike, 
> because they were simply out-gunned.

Frightened? Of Curtis?!? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Sorry. LOL!

> In article <3455A06D.719D@concentric.net>, mives@concentric.net wrote:
> 
> > Mike Curtis wrote:
> > > 
> > > I've enjoyed (if that is really the right word) taking part 
> > > in this bazaar community for as long as I have.
> > 
> > Now McFee and the Ostroll will *parse* this sentence and 
> > claim that Curtis indeed meant to say "bazaar" rather than 
> > "bizarre" (they'll defend anything if it comes from a 
> > Holocaust Hatemonger) but I think Curtis just doesn't 
> > know how to spell.
> 
> CHUCK:>>>>Who besides the gang of fellow idiots, gives 
> a shit what you think, Ives? 

Well, Chuck, apparently _you_ do. At least you did enough to reply and get all
bent outta shape.

> Mike could piss on your pants leg, and you would look for
> rain clouds.

How would you know this? Experience?

> > > I find it is time to move on
> > > to real historical things and possibly a career change. 
> > 
> > So this guy is giving up on the Holocaust Propaganda Machine?
> > That's one small triumph indeed.
> 
> CHUCK:>>>Holocaust Propaganda Machine...indeed. 

Yes. You _are_ familiar with it, are you not?

> We prove what we claim.

Excuse me, but _you_ have "proven" *nothing* you have "claimed". All we get
out of you is, "Listen, pal! I was there!"

[...]

> Up yours, Ives!

Now, now, Chuck.

[silly .sig sent for a spin on a merry-go-round]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:17 EST 1997
Article: 145182 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net> <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin> <34510e91.679318@news.jump.net> <01bce0a0$900c5dd0$27718bcf@odin> <3453ed29.688300080@news.jump.net> <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin> <34539fcd$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce288$de0ee900$9b938bcf@odin> <34555655$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce3b6$8a1c1320$db7acdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce3e0$b98cc080$7037eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.112
Date: 28 Oct 97 20:37:19 GMT
Lines: 59
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.55.112
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145182

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce3b6$8a1c1320$db7acdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <34555655$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <01bce288$de0ee900$9b938bcf@odin>, on 10/27/97 
> > >    at 03:35 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > > > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > > > <34539fcd$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > > > Fess up, Anthony.  
> > > 
> > > > *Gasp!* Surely not another YANC?!? (Yet Another Nazi 
> > > > Conspiracy)
> > > 
> > > *Gasp!*  Are you admitting you are a Nazi?
> > 
> > Naw. Nazis are too wimpy compared to my political ideas.  :-O
> 
> How so? The Nazis most certainly imprisoned those they 
> didn't like! Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini is 
> a big fan  of imprisoning those he doesn't like. Moreover, 
> they certainly beat prisoners with rods!
> 
> To wit: 

Not in your case, Sparky.

[*yawn*  boring quote snipped]

> Unsuprisingly, Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini 
> also thinks beating those he doesn't like with a pickaxe 
> handle is "fair." 

What are _you_ worried about? You'd be locked up in a kennel somewhere,
tinkerbell.

> Hmm. Those Nazis sound _exactly_ like Anthony "beat 
> 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini's kind of people!

Naw. I told you, they're too wimpy. You? You're just too stupid.

[ridiculous .sig and VanSlander (tm) kicked. Hard.]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:17 EST 1997
Article: 145188 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca> <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>  <01bcdf67$7fe87ea0$8ba2cdcd@odin> <3451ccf6.1439033@news.jump.net> <01bce015$e3ef7f30$7155eccd@odin> <34510e91.679318@news.jump.net> <01bce0a0$900c5dd0$27718bcf@odin> <3453ed29.688300080@news.jump.net> <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin> <34539fcd$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce288$de0ee900$9b938bcf@odin> <877999656.27223@dejanews.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce3e2$8c1a2910$7037eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.112
Date: 28 Oct 97 20:50:21 GMT
Lines: 43
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.theriver.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.55.112
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145188

smock@netwave.ca wrote in article <877999656.27223@dejanews.com>...
> In article <01bce288$de0ee900$9b938bcf@odin>,
>   "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >
> > Gord McFee  wrote in article
> > <34539fcd$7$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> > > In <01bce169$fd0a0800$c9b113cc@odin>, on 10/25/97
> > >    at 05:22 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> > >
> > > and this latest is the Greg Raven "unless you show me a
> > > gas chamber, I will not believe" line.
> >
> > Nope. How many times have I gotta say that I'm asking 
> > questions the _way_ *I* want, and I won't be happy with 
> > the standard, "Go see the following document at Nizkor".
> 
> Yep.  Sabatini knows that the study of history is so much 
> easier without those pesky facts getting in the way.

Let us know any time you're ready to post some.

> > > Why are you simply spouting denier canards?
> >
> > Asking to be shown evidence is *not* a "canard" 
> > no matter how many times you say it.
> 
> Pretending you haven't seen evidence, no matter 
> how many times we've shown it, is most certainly 
> a "canard".

As is posting some trite, silly crap and claiming it is this wonderful,
non-deniable 'proof' when it really isn't.

But you knew that already.

> More construction plans coming today, under the 
> subject "Construction Documents for Gas Chambers".

I don't regularly read Mock articles, but I suppose I should take a look. Try
to post them in JPEG format, if you don't mind, and if possible in one piece.

[.sig lost]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:18 EST 1997
Article: 145196 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Population Theory?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <3446bae0.7116687@news.phoenix.net> <3447c84f.a9e483fd@hotmail.com> <34494c25.98513754@news.phoenix.net> <344bd6b2.16fd3f56@hotmail.com> <62jtoa$ut2$1@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com> <344EA748.35C2@concentric.net> <3451C1F5.77E2@concentric.net> <3459ad8a.7236289@news.v-wave.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce3e7$e61e57b0$7037eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.112
Date: 28 Oct 97 21:28:40 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145196

John Morris  wrote in article
<3459ad8a.7236289@news.v-wave.com>...
> In <3451C1F5.77E2@concentric.net>, on Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:55:01 -0700,
> someone calling himself Michael Ives  wrote:
> 
> >For some reason, I couldn't find this in DejaNews...
> 
> Perhaps it died of embarrassment on the way to the archive.
> 
> [snip - Netanyahu on assimilation] 
> 
> >> This, interestingly enough, is the same theory (imputed 
> >> natural increase) by which Holocaust partisans conclude 
> >> that 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. Therefore, 
> >> those same partisans must conclude that 12 million more 
> >> have been murdered since 1948.  Who murdered them?
> >> That's all I want to know.  I wouldn't dare ask for proof.
> 
> It look's like English. It even looks like grammatically correct
> English. But who can say whether it actually intends to 
> communicate something?

Apparently not you.

> >> >"I would like to state unequivocally that there are 
> >> >good and bad people of every ethnic persuasion."
>  
> >> --Michael Ives
> 
> Of course, we have yet to find out what an ethnic 
> "persuasion" is.

FREE clue for John Morris courtesy of The American Heritage® Dictionary of the
English Language, Third Edition:

per·sua·sion (per-swâ¹zhen) noun

4b. A party, faction, or group holding to a particular set of ideas or
beliefs.

Are you sure you studied English, John?

[.sig mauled with a truncheon]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:19 EST 1997
Article: 145198 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: No, simply *Ostroll*. Includes infamous Ostroll.gif! (was: The Ividiot?!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
References: <341f3664$11$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>  <19970917103501.GAA19562@ladder02.news.aol.com> <3420926a$13$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3420d3a3.93365700@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc442$5ec73350$3856eccd@odin> <342234bc.183772769@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc510$42ef0300$7537eccd@odin> <3422b4ac.3188284@news.jump.net> <01bcc527$0487db20$687acdcd@odin> <342499ab.35048660@news.uniserve.com> <01bcc6a2$497dbcf0$daa1cdcd@odin> <34257dc6.1755354@news.uniserve.com> <34528bc3.5972379@news.hrc-counsel.net> <01bce1b2$8c7ad620$55a1cdcd@odin> <3453101B.88@concentric.net> <3452f180.53052991@news.uniserve.com> <34543673.3550@concentric.net> <34545e6b.54603779@news.uniserve.com> <3455135B.211C@concentric.net> <3455aa50.15149212@news.uniserve.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce3ea$2d2fc8d0$7037eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.112
Date: 28 Oct 97 21:45:04 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145198 alt.politics.white-power:100336

The Ostroll (aka Hilary Ostrov)  bleated in article
<3455aa50.15149212@news.uniserve.com>...
> Mr. Ives had evidently visited a page on my website
> [http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/denial.html]  This was an Op Ed
> article, published (but *not* by the NY _or_ LA Times, Mr. Moran!) in
> Sept. 1995, arguing that: 

[...]

> I'll try to remedy this in future.  Maybe Mr. Ives would 
> be more comfortable if one were to use "it" and "The Ividiot" 
> when speaking of/to him?
> 
> >and then reproduced its whole web page 
> 
> Let's give this a try, shall we?
> 
> Perhaps The Ividiot should visit its optometrist and let him/her 
> know that it is having great difficulty discerning the difference 
> between an obvious excerpt from a web page and the "whole 
> web page" - even when it is confronted with the words "the full 
> text is available at
> .."
> 
> What do you think, folks?!

I think the Ostroll should slink back to its cave and remain there until
bidden.

But, being an acerbic cockatrice putting the likes of Medusa and the other
Gorgons to shame, the shrewish Ostroll will instead continue its trollish ways
with wild abandon, to be cheered on, no doubt, but its fellow travelers and
other assorted jackanapes.

Perhaps it is time once again to force the Ostroll to gaze upon its own
uncomely reflection that it may contemplate its harridan-like behavior. One
can only hope that the creature will learn _this_ time!

[...]


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`
end



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:20 EST 1997
Article: 145199 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Details on a diabolical conspiracy here (was: Phillips vs Mock III)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bce2f5$12faea30$80b113cc@odin> <3455d71d.0@news.primary.net>  <01bce3d5$09c47360$90a2cdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 28 Oct 97 21:55:22 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145199

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> "Anthony Sabatini" writes:
> # Daniel Keren  wrote:
> 
> ## Yes. But this is the same Leuchter who claims to be an
> ## engineer, though he holds only a BA in the arts.
> 
> # And you, who holds a degree in Computer Science, also make
> # grandiose statements concerning gas chambers. Strange, that...
> 
> Name one "grandiose statement" I made concerning gas chambers.

Nearly anything you say concerning them is "grandiose" as far as you are
concerned. After all, you have no educational background in homicidal gas
chambers, do you? No, instead you have a degree in Computer Science; hardly
the requirements of a 'gas chamber expert'.

> Name one argument I made which you can prove is not true. I
> can prove that Leuchter's "arguments" are idiotic.

That doesn't matter at all. Leuchter's abilities or lack thereof do not change
the fact that _you_ have absolutely no credentials relating to gas chambers in
order to talk intelligently about them.

Remember, this is the very same argument you use to attack others. Thus, it is
rather fitting that you are hoist by your own petard.

> You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

And yet you are the one babbling about "gas chambers" without any credentials
whatsoever. Tsk, tsk.

> ## This is the same Leuchter who claimed that the HCN
> ## gas would "rise towards the SS-men and kill them"
> ## (he never heard about gas masks, routinely used
> ## when working with Zyklon-B). Etc.
> 
> # How many and where were these "gas masks" found, 
> # if any?
> 
> Thanks for proving my point...

I did not.

> Gas masks were common and standard equipment for 
> anyone handling Zyklon-B. Look at the Degesch manual 
> and at Dr. Peters' book, where you can also see 
> photographs of them. Since no one - not even 
> "revisionists" - denies that tons of the material were 
> shipped to Auschwitz, it's obvious that they had gas 
> masks there, because one cannot use Zyklon without 
> them - the HCN would kill him.
> 
> Is this simple enough for you?

It obviously went over your head.

I did not ask nor claim that gas masks _wouldn't_ be used, silly. I asked
where and when and how many were found by 'holocaust scholars'. Can you
answer?



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:21 EST 1997
Article: 145228 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news-out.communique.net!communique!recycled.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 66 Questions JEWS Don't Want People to Think About
Date: 29 Oct 1997 00:14:52 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145228

John Morris  wrote in article
<3455b866.10016080@news.v-wave.com>...
> My apologies for the delay in responding. Anthony's reply never showed
> up on my news server.

Must've been plotted by that terrible YANC (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy).

> In <3452b58f$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>, on Sat, 25 Oct 97
> 23:14:22, Gord McFee  wrote:
> >In <01bce092$0e788e00$27718bcf@odin>, on 10/24/97 
> >   at 03:36 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> >> Gord McFee  wrote in article
> >> <344fe59e$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> >> > In <01bcdf46$b6f02ef0$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/23/97 
> >> >    at 12:04 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> >> > > John Morris  wrote in
article
> >> > > <344f8615.11175213@news.v-wave.com>...
> >> > > > In <01bcde92$ef0a4370$f7938bcf@odin>, on 22 Oct 97 02:37:51 GMT,
> >> > > > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
>  
> >> > > > [snip]
>  
> >> > > > >The Holocaust is one thing because it happened 
> >> > > > >over 50 years ago and nothing can be done for it 
> >> > > > >now. The quasi-'genocide' against the Palestinians 
> >> > > > >is happening here and now. Why are you not up 
> >> > > > >in arms about it in  the same way you are with 
> >> > > > >the Holocaust?
>  
> >> > > > 1. What makes you think we aren't?
>  
> >> > > Haven't seen any indication of it whatsoever. If you 
> >> > > are, why not just say so?
> 
> I have said so on several occasions. It is not my fault if you are
> inattentive.

It's just that whether you are or aren't isn't _that_ important to me, John.

> >> > It is irrelevant to this newsgroup as John  tried--vainly
> >> > --to tell you.
> 
> >> And yet neither you nor John have been able to post any 
> >> evidence to prove what is and what isn't on-topic for this 
> >> newsgroup.
> 
> >Whoa!  There is no "evidence" to post about what the 
> >newsgroup is supposed to be about, but the topic since 1993 
> >at least has been the Holocaust, an event which you yourself 
> >said happened 50 years ago.  The group was actually started 
> >by "revisionists" and a bunch of us came in and chased 'em 
> >away.  You don't have a clue of the history of it, do you?  
> >It is not supposed to be current events.  I am not playing 
> >topic police, indeed I have no right to, but I ask you: if you 
> >want to discuss the Palestinian situation, would it not be more 
> >appropriate in the Middle East newsgroups?  That's where I 
> >would go to discuss it.  And that's why you and I have both 
> >shown admirable restraint in not getting into some of the 
> >Church stuff, although we are both dying to.  :-)  
> 
> I think the name of the newsgroup should have been a clue.

Then you should look at it again. It's called: "alt.revisionism". Here's a
clue from our pals at The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English
Language, Third Edition:
 
re·vi·sion·ism (rî-vîzh¹e-nîz´em) noun
1.	Advocacy of the revision of an accepted, usually long-standing view,
theory, or doctrine, especially a revision of historical events and movements.
2.	A recurrent tendency within the Communist movement to revise Marxist theory
in such a way as to provide justification for a retreat from the revolutionary
to the reformist position.
— re·vi¹sion·ist adjective & noun

Do you see anything specific to the Holocaust in there, John?

> >> That aside, you must remember two things:
> 
> >> 1. John asked my a question and I answered both 
> >> truthfully and correctly.
> 
> >I know.  He asked why you think we are not up in arms 
> >about a subject because we don't post about it in a 
> >newsgroup that is supposed to have nothing to do with it.
> 
> >> 2. Since the topic of the Palestinian 'quasi-genocide' *does* 
> >> come up here frequently, regardless of whether it is on-topic 
> >> or not, I haven't seen him make so much as a peep of 
> >> protest. And neither have you, for that matter.
> 
> Again, you are either inattentive or you see what you want to 
> see. Michael Stein has also voiced similar complaints. 

How many times, Johns? How often do you complain about it? And are you that
important that I should pay heed to your every proclamation?

> If they are not in the handwaving hysterical style that you 
> prefer, tough.

Why is it "tough", John? And, more importantly, what make you believe you know
what I "prefer"?

> >Because it is not on-topic here.  No more complicated than 
> >that.  If I wanted to discuss that stuff, I would do it where 
> >it is on-topic.
> 
> >> > > > 2. How many lines per week of breast-beating 
> >> > > > about the Palestinians would you like before we 
> >> > > > could return to the putative topic of the 
> >> > > > newsgroup?
>  
> >> > > 182 per week per Nizkook.
>  
> >> > Silly juvenile talk.
> 
> >> For a silly, juvenile question. You _did_ read John's 
> >> question, did you not? (But, of course, you had no 
> >> scathing remarks for it.)
> >
> >John's question clearly went over your head.  That's what I 
> >meant by juvenile, not the words you used.
> 
> John's question clearly went over his head. 

John clearly thinks highly of himself, especially his supposed ability to toss
interrogatives at high altitudes.

> The point of the question is that I do not see the need to 
> breast-beat about the obvious crimes of the Israelis--or 
> the Soviets for that matter--in order to establish my 
> right to discuss the Holocaust and Holocaust denial.

Perhaps in your haste to throw questions in the air you missed the gist of my
answer. Here's it is bluntly (for which I hope you will forgive me): I found
your question to be utterly stupid and unworthy of a response. But my cynical
and mischievous nature got the better of me so I decide to reply in a snide
and sarcastic manner. Does this help you any, John?

> Obviously, though, the culture of the newsgroup has 
> changed since I started reading it. 

Yes, that is the way of things, John. People grow, change and expand their
horizons. So, too, do newsgroups after a certain manner. You may recall that
once -- but too long ago -- the word "fag" referred to students in Britain
assigned menial tasks. Later, it was used to describe cigarettes. Today, "fag"
is often used as a disparaging term for homosexuals. One of my dictionaries
claims that "fag" used to mean "to droop", possibly from the Middle English
word "fagge". So you see, John, things change. It happens all the time. Now I
realize that many people are opposed to change -- myself included, by and
large -- but you really should get used to it.

> The deniers wanted the newsgroup; the deniers got
> the newsgroup; and, the deniers could not defend their 
> thesis, and so they left. At least they knew enough 
> about the history to lie plausibly about it. Gradually 
> they have been replaced with racists, spammers, and 
> flame artists who don't have a clue what they are
> talking about. 

My but you have such a skewed view of this history, John! Perhaps you are a
'closet denier' of some sort?

> I am especially unimpressed with the current crop 
> of incoherent mumblers about overarching Jewish 
> conspiracies. 

You must mean like the diabolical and nearly indescribable one those evil
Nazis, vile anti-Semites and villainous deniers have concocted in order to
shake the very foundations of our good and just democratic system.

> When they stuck to the Jewish conspiracy to control TV, 
> it almost sounded like they had a chance to gull the gullible, 
> but now they seem barely able to convince the gullible of 
> their sanity.

A good judge of the "gullible", are you?

> If I may, you don't seem to be too terribly up in arms 
> about them either.

In truth, it does not interest me as much as other, more pressing matters. For
instance, the continued (gross) abusive of the Holocaust for monetary,
political and metaphysical gain. (The latter referring to moral and/or ethical
sway, of course.)

> >> > > > 3. Who actually denies humans rights abuses 
> >> > > > against the Palestinians?
> 
> >> > > Who actually accused anyone of "denying" these 
> >> > > abuses?
> 
> No one. 

Then why bring it up?

> But its seems to be the case that I must establish my 
> right to discuss the Holocaust and Holocaust denial by 
> first rending my garments and gnashing my teeth over 
> the Palestinians.

Oh! I would not go so far as "rending [your] garments", John. After all, that
may mean damaging precious designer clothes imported from Europe and
elsewhere. But I have some inkling as to your problem here. Would it help if I
personally absolve you of the need to confess your apparent inner raging at
the horrible situation in the Middle East?

[John's no-longer-necessary apologia snipped, including a rather shocking
statement about sending someone or other "into the sea"]

> I am interested in the phenomenon of Holocaust denial. 
> That is why I started posting to this newsgroup. If I do not 
> condemn the bulldozing of houses or detention without 
> trial in very single post, it is because I consider the issues 
> as remote from and, at best, peripheral to the discussion.

Well, I fully appreciate your position, John. I am also thankful that the
Muses saw fit to grant you the wisdom to admit that this talk of Zionism is
"peripheral to the discussion". This tells us that you at least allude to the
notion that Zionism is a valid topic here. I am content.

> >> No answer?
> 
> >It was irrelevant, as it still is.
> 
> >> > > > 4. The government of Indonesia has killed 10% 
> >> > > > of the population of East Timor. The killings 
> >> > > > continue here and now. Why are *you* not up 
> >> > > > in arms about that?
>  
> >> > > Haven't heard about. The news is usually bursting 
> >> > > with Middle East stories so there is little room left 
> >> > > to report other incidents.
>  
> >> > Pretty feeble, Anthony.
> 
> >> I was quite serious.
> 
> >So was I.
> 
> I agree that it is pretty feeble. 

You wound me, John! My words rang true, I say! Am I, then, to be held
responsible for the actions of some cad at the local television station who
sees fit to affirm the importance of Middle Eastern antics above all other
things?

> If you want to talk about Middle Eastern politics, you 
> are welcome to try a Middle Eastern politics newsgroup. 

Thank you kindly, John, but I must humble myself and beg pardon for I believe
Zionism and its works form a..."peripheral" part of this newsgroup.

> Or, if the discussion is relevant to very newsgroup, try
> rec.pets.dogs. 

> Or are you here because you have said 
> to yourself, "Uh, wull, it has somethin' ta do with Jews."

You hurt me again, John! (I am beginning to get the distinct impression that
you -- *gasp!* -- dislike me!) But surely I should be held to blame for not
making my earlier words clearer. If you would entertain the notion of visiting
Deja News (http://www.dejanews.com) and searching for the original article, I
believe I have a slim chance of convincing you that when I spoke those words
to Sir Herman Hedtoft the Great Dane, I was merely asking him what _the post
he was replying to_ had to do with Jews. Need I explain further?

> >> > > > 5. Do you have any idea how irrelevant your 
> >> > > > objection is?
> 
> >> > > Is it more or less relevant than this post from 
> >> > > you?
> 
> >> No answer?
> 
> My post was directly relevant to the irrelevance of 
> your objection.

Ah, so you seem to be saying that it was, in fact, _equally_ relevant. Did I
misunderstand?

> You have a strange lack of curiosity about why I think 
> your objection is irrelevant. 

Possibly because I am not all _that_ interested, but we shan't venture there
just now.

> But I will tell you why anyway. Your objection is
> simply a variation on the "absence of proof" fallacy. 
> In the absence of proof of the contrary, you have 
> assumed that everyone who opposes either 
> antisemitism or Holocaust denial is a "Nizkook" 
> and a rabid pro-Zionist partisan.

Oh, dear! I must again humbly beg your indulgence to explain. In truth, what
you presented above has little to do with my criteria for labeling "Nizkooks"
and "rabid pro-Zionist partisans". I assure you that those already graced with
the title "Nizkook" have rightly earned it through months of hard work.

A second point I would like to profess concerns the labeling of "rabid
pro-Zionist partisans". I do not usually confer that title to anyone without
asking that person a serious of questions. If you recall, I do not believe I
ever accused _you_ of such!

> If you want to know why it is a fallacious objections
> try this one: in the absence of proof to the contrary, 
> I assume that Anthony Sabatini is a homosexual. Do 
> you see now why absence of proof is not proof of
> the contrary position?

Oh, yes, Sir! Thank you for imparting such pearls of wisdom to one such as I.
You have bestowed a great thing on me this day, John Morris. Let me assure you
that it shall not be forgotten! Of that, you have my word!

> >> > > > I know this will come as a shock to your 
> >> > > > sheltered sensibilities, Anthony, but there 
> >> > > > actually are people who deny the Holocaust 
> >> > > > and who falsify history in order to sustain 
> >> > > > their denial. I can think of no other historical 
> >> > > > event which has an organized campaign of 
> >> > > > denial associated with it.
>  
> >> > > So let's discuss that. What is the scope of this 
> >> > > "campaign"? 
> 
> International.

Oh, my! That large, eh?

> >> > > How "organized" do you think they are? 
> 
> Organized enough to publish a journal, to run a publishing 
> house, to seed college newspapers with advertisements, 
> to hold conferences, and, in the case of Zuendel, to make 
> rather a handsome living selling his wares into Germany.

Methinks you are describing those irascible scalawags at the ADL, SWC, WJC,
CJC, AJC, B'nai B'rith and all its ill-begotten spawn, along with a host of
other such organizations. Surely not...?!?

> >> > >When you say they "deny the Holocaust", what 
> >> > >exactly to do mean? (Before answering that you'll 
> >> > >have to give us a definition of what "the Holocaust" 
> >> > >encompasses.) 
> 
> They deny the attempted genocide of the European Jews 
> between 1941 and 1945.

Oh. But let me ask a more specific question. Please indulge me, if you will.
Can one believe that countless Jews were shot to death but not gassed and
still avoid the dread label "denier"? If not, why not?

> >> > > And who is this "they"? 
> 
> Take your pick. The IHR and CODOH (really the same thing). 
> Samisdat Press. The Adelaide Institute. Radio Islam. Serge 
> Thion's little grouplet in France. All those neo-Nazi web sites 
> you seem so blissfully unaware of. Try Hatewatch.

But these groups you name seem so varied in goals, ideas and politics! Do you
mean to say that they put aside their differences to form a unified front to
push their ultimate goal? And just what might goal be? Do you have any clue?

> Do you really not know the answer to this question, or 
> are just being coy?

Not at all. I know most of the sites you mentioned but was unaware of any
concentrated effort at undermining the sanctity of the Holocaust. You efforts
at elucidation are not for naught, let me assure you!

> >> > > A conspiracy of some sort? 
> 
> Perhaps. Greg Raven of the IHR once inadvertently posted 
> a header from his private mailing list to a listserv group 
> called germanica-l. It included members of the Zundelteam, 
> CODOH, the IHR, some National Alliance members at one 
> time prominent in Usenet, Frederick Toben of the Adelaide 
> Institute, Jeff Roberts who currently runs the "Nation of
> Europa" website in England, and a few names I don't recognize.

A "mailing list"? How nefarious! I'm sorry, John, but I don't believe this bit
your present here has any more meaning that a personal distribution list in an
e-mail account.

> Although they don't make their association public, they 
> also do not--or are not very good at--keep it a secret. 
> Clearly, though, they do consult with each other on 
> matters of common cause, and they are organized 
> internationally. 

Like what? What "matters of common cause"? Will you give me an example,
please?

> Heck, they all go to the IHR conferences. But I am a 
> member of the International Medieval Institute, and I 
> go to conferences, too.  

Yes, as do the ADL, SWC, B'nai B'rith and all the rest. These groups regularly
hold conferences to discuss "matters of common cause", share information and
whatever else they do.

> So whether that qualifies as a conspiracy, I'll
> leave for you to decide.

I'm not sure. What would _you_ call the apparent alliance of the various
groups I have named?

> >> > > Who are its members? 
> 
> You could get a pretty good idea by looking at 
> Greg Raven's website.

I'll have a look. Is there anything in particular I should watch out for?

> >> > > What do they do to further their cause 
> >> > > and how? 
> 
> Covered above _passim_.

Well, OK.

> >> > > Is there one or more leaders involved? 
> 
> I have no idea how they organize themselves politically.
> 
> >> > > Who are these people?
> 
> Didn't you already ask that question?

My sincerest apologies, John. I meant to ask who these "leaders" were.

> >> > > Why do they do what they do? 
> 
> Their motives are varied, but, by and large, I would 
> say it is because they hate Jews or they hate Israel. 

Oh. And in your opinion, why would you say are the motivations of the various
so-called 'Jewish-interests groups'?

> Serge Thion is an odd duck. He denies the Holocaust 
> because it can't be explained by his version of Marxian 
> class analysis. I kid you not.

Does the Electronic Holocaust site have any smea--I mean information on him?

> >> > > Are they succeeding? 
> 
> Despite the considerable role of wishful thinking in their
> undertaking, no. Every few years they announce the 
> impending death of the "Holocaust myth" in "one or two 
> years at most." Usually they think they have got hold of 
> that one damning bit of evidence, that one crushing fact 
> that will make the whole myth unravel. Or so they 
> believe. 

Hmmm. Sounds sort of like the propaganda speeches surround the terrorist state
of Israel. You know, "This year for sure!" and all that hogwash.

> Like you, they do not seem to be terribly familiar with 
> how history works as a discipline. 

Alas, I am but a lowly software developer unworthy of such concerns.

> Unlike you, they are quite conversant with the varieties 
> of standard historiography, ad they have tons of facts. 

Sir, I must protest! I can quote you veritable _reams_ of "facts", but I fear
it shan't make a difference in how you view the angelic organizations that
move me to (electronic) quill.

> Unfortunately, they have no idea of how to interpret the 
> facts *except* tendentiously. IOW they use several 
> varieties of logical fallacies to prove prior conclusions.

Ah, I see. You mean they see things through their own particular point of
view. Is that it?

> >> > > What effects will their plot(s) entail (both short- 
> >> > > and long-term)?
> 
> On the plus side, I have to credit them with a renewal of 
> interest in the Holocaust, 

This is indeed most unfortunate, for I believe we must move on with our lives
rather than continuously bemoaning our past plight and travails -- both real
and imagined -- and constantly dwelling on the past.

> and more finely-grained and contingent historiography
> from historians.

I see. You mean to say that these holocaust scholars have had to correct the
various, er, oversights made by them in the past and reconcile the whole in
light of newer, um, theories.

> In the long run, it is hard to say. Probably no lasting 
> effects at all. 

And imagine all the time, effort and money being wasted trying to suppress
them! Why, it boggles the mind! For example, please see:

http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html

> But if there were a radical shift to the right in politics, 
> they might find themselves arguing to school boards 
> that the "other side" should be taught just as creationists 
> have already done. Then I suppose historians will have 
> to confront their own discipline in much the same way 
> scientists did when threatened by creationism. 

Yes, Heaven forfend we teach our children about our religion, morals and
culture in schools!

> OTOH, if the shift to the right were so radical that 
> Holocaust denial was entertained as serious history, 
> they could solve the problem simply by taking all 
> the historians out and having them shot.

Oh, John! Your wit remains...singular.
 
> >> > Do you read *any* articles in this newsgroup, 
> >> > other than flame opportunities?
> 
> >> Yes.
> 
> Judging from your "serious" questions, I would say not.

I can only offer my humblest apologies.

[a trite issue with Gord McFee removed]

> >> > > > If you don't think that's a good enough 
> >> > > > reason for someone to take an interest 
> >> > > > in the subject, too bad.
>  
> >> > > For who?
>  
> >> > You.
> 
> >> I doubt that.
> 
> >I expected you would.
> 
> Let me rephrase that. 

Certainly.

> I can think of no other historical event which has 
> an organized campaign of denial associated with it. 

I believe Mr. Bellinger has some words for you on that matter. As to myself, I
am afraid I do not deign answer. With my apologies, of course.

> If you don't think that's a good enough reason for 
> someone to take an interest in the subject, tough 
> shit.

Perhaps you might try Ex-Lax? I've heard tell it works wonders on these
problems you seem to exhibit.

[signature file removed. Permanent-like.]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:22 EST 1997
Article: 145236 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 66 Questions JEWS Don't Want People to Think About
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce401$e994e200$7037eccd@odin>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.177.154
Date: 29 Oct 97 00:34:59 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145236

[Possible re-post.]

John Morris  wrote in article
<3455b866.10016080@news.v-wave.com>...
> My apologies for the delay in responding. Anthony's reply never showed
> up on my news server.

Must've been plotted by that terrible YANC (Yet Another Nazi Conspiracy).

> In <3452b58f$6$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>, on Sat, 25 Oct 97
> 23:14:22, Gord McFee  wrote:
> >In <01bce092$0e788e00$27718bcf@odin>, on 10/24/97 
> >   at 03:36 PM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> >> Gord McFee  wrote in article
> >> <344fe59e$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net>...
> >> > In <01bcdf46$b6f02ef0$550bcdcd@odin>, on 10/23/97 
> >> >    at 12:04 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"  said:
> >> > > John Morris  wrote in
> >> > > article
> >> > > <344f8615.11175213@news.v-wave.com>...
> >> > > > In <01bcde92$ef0a4370$f7938bcf@odin>, on 22 Oct 97 02:37:51 GMT,
> >> > > > "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
>  
> >> > > > [snip]
>  
> >> > > > >The Holocaust is one thing because it happened 
> >> > > > >over 50 years ago and nothing can be done for it 
> >> > > > >now. The quasi-'genocide' against the Palestinians 
> >> > > > >is happening here and now. Why are you not up 
> >> > > > >in arms about it in  the same way you are with 
> >> > > > >the Holocaust?
>  
> >> > > > 1. What makes you think we aren't?
>  
> >> > > Haven't seen any indication of it whatsoever. If you 
> >> > > are, why not just say so?
> 
> I have said so on several occasions. It is not my fault if you are
> inattentive.

It's just that whether you are or aren't isn't _that_ important to me, John.

> >> > It is irrelevant to this newsgroup as John  tried--vainly
> >> > --to tell you.
> 
> >> And yet neither you nor John have been able to post any 
> >> evidence to prove what is and what isn't on-topic for this 
> >> newsgroup.
> 
> >Whoa!  There is no "evidence" to post about what the 
> >newsgroup is supposed to be about, but the topic since 1993 
> >at least has been the Holocaust, an event which you yourself 
> >said happened 50 years ago.  The group was actually started 
> >by "revisionists" and a bunch of us came in and chased 'em 
> >away.  You don't have a clue of the history of it, do you?  
> >It is not supposed to be current events.  I am not playing 
> >topic police, indeed I have no right to, but I ask you: if you 
> >want to discuss the Palestinian situation, would it not be more 
> >appropriate in the Middle East newsgroups?  That's where I 
> >would go to discuss it.  And that's why you and I have both 
> >shown admirable restraint in not getting into some of the 
> >Church stuff, although we are both dying to.  :-)  
> 
> I think the name of the newsgroup should have been a clue.

Then you should look at it again. It's called: "alt.revisionism". Here's a
clue from our pals at The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English
Language, Third Edition:
 
re·vi·sion·ism (rî-vîzh¹e-nîz´em) noun
1.	Advocacy of the revision of an accepted, usually long-standing view,
theory, or doctrine, especially a revision of historical events and movements.
2.	A recurrent tendency within the Communist movement to revise Marxist theory
in such a way as to provide justification for a retreat from the revolutionary
to the reformist position.
— re·vi¹sion·ist adjective & noun

Do you see anything specific to the Holocaust in there, John?

> >> That aside, you must remember two things:
> 
> >> 1. John asked my a question and I answered both 
> >> truthfully and correctly.
> 
> >I know.  He asked why you think we are not up in arms 
> >about a subject because we don't post about it in a 
> >newsgroup that is supposed to have nothing to do with it.
> 
> >> 2. Since the topic of the Palestinian 'quasi-genocide' *does* 
> >> come up here frequently, regardless of whether it is on-topic 
> >> or not, I haven't seen him make so much as a peep of 
> >> protest. And neither have you, for that matter.
> 
> Again, you are either inattentive or you see what you want to 
> see. Michael Stein has also voiced similar complaints. 

How many times, Johns? How often do you complain about it? And are you that
important that I should pay heed to your every proclamation?

> If they are not in the handwaving hysterical style that you 
> prefer, tough.

Why is it "tough", John? And, more importantly, what make you believe you know
what I "prefer"?

> >Because it is not on-topic here.  No more complicated than 
> >that.  If I wanted to discuss that stuff, I would do it where 
> >it is on-topic.
> 
> >> > > > 2. How many lines per week of breast-beating 
> >> > > > about the Palestinians would you like before we 
> >> > > > could return to the putative topic of the 
> >> > > > newsgroup?
>  
> >> > > 182 per week per Nizkook.
>  
> >> > Silly juvenile talk.
> 
> >> For a silly, juvenile question. You _did_ read John's 
> >> question, did you not? (But, of course, you had no 
> >> scathing remarks for it.)
> >
> >John's question clearly went over your head.  That's what I 
> >meant by juvenile, not the words you used.
> 
> John's question clearly went over his head. 

John clearly thinks highly of himself, especially his supposed ability to toss
interrogatives at high altitudes.

> The point of the question is that I do not see the need to 
> breast-beat about the obvious crimes of the Israelis--or 
> the Soviets for that matter--in order to establish my 
> right to discuss the Holocaust and Holocaust denial.

Perhaps in your haste to throw questions in the air you missed the gist of my
answer. Here's it is bluntly (for which I hope you will forgive me): I found
your question to be utterly stupid and unworthy of a response. But my cynical
and mischievous nature got the better of me so I decide to reply in a snide
and sarcastic manner. Does this help you any, John?

> Obviously, though, the culture of the newsgroup has 
> changed since I started reading it. 

Yes, that is the way of things, John. People grow, change and expand their
horizons. So, too, do newsgroups after a certain manner. You may recall that
once -- but too long ago -- the word "fag" referred to students in Britain
assigned menial tasks. Later, it was used to describe cigarettes. Today, "fag"
is often used as a disparaging term for homosexuals. One of my dictionaries
claims that "fag" used to mean "to droop", possibly from the Middle English
word "fagge". So you see, John, things change. It happens all the time. Now I
realize that many people are opposed to change -- myself included, by and
large -- but you really should get used to it.

> The deniers wanted the newsgroup; the deniers got
> the newsgroup; and, the deniers could not defend their 
> thesis, and so they left. At least they knew enough 
> about the history to lie plausibly about it. Gradually 
> they have been replaced with racists, spammers, and 
> flame artists who don't have a clue what they are
> talking about. 

My but you have such a skewed view of this history, John! Perhaps you are a
'closet denier' of some sort?

> I am especially unimpressed with the current crop 
> of incoherent mumblers about overarching Jewish 
> conspiracies. 

You must mean like the diabolical and nearly indescribable one those evil
Nazis, vile anti-Semites and villainous deniers have concocted in order to
shake the very foundations of our good and just democratic system.

> When they stuck to the Jewish conspiracy to control TV, 
> it almost sounded like they had a chance to gull the gullible, 
> but now they seem barely able to convince the gullible of 
> their sanity.

A good judge of the "gullible", are you?

> If I may, you don't seem to be too terribly up in arms 
> about them either.

In truth, it does not interest me as much as other, more pressing matters. For
instance, the continued (gross) abusive of the Holocaust for monetary,
political and metaphysical gain. (The latter referring to moral and/or ethical
sway, of course.)

> >> > > > 3. Who actually denies humans rights abuses 
> >> > > > against the Palestinians?
> 
> >> > > Who actually accused anyone of "denying" these 
> >> > > abuses?
> 
> No one. 

Then why bring it up?

> But its seems to be the case that I must establish my 
> right to discuss the Holocaust and Holocaust denial by 
> first rending my garments and gnashing my teeth over 
> the Palestinians.

Oh! I would not go so far as "rending [your] garments", John. After all, that
may mean damaging precious designer clothes imported from Europe and
elsewhere. But I have some inkling as to your problem here. Would it help if I
personally absolve you of the need to confess your apparent inner raging at
the horrible situation in the Middle East?

[John's no-longer-necessary apologia snipped, including a rather shocking
statement about sending someone or other "into the sea"]

> I am interested in the phenomenon of Holocaust denial. 
> That is why I started posting to this newsgroup. If I do not 
> condemn the bulldozing of houses or detention without 
> trial in very single post, it is because I consider the issues 
> as remote from and, at best, peripheral to the discussion.

Well, I fully appreciate your position, John. I am also thankful that the
Muses saw fit to grant you the wisdom to admit that this talk of Zionism is
"peripheral to the discussion". This tells us that you at least allude to the
notion that Zionism is a valid topic here. I am content.

> >> No answer?
> 
> >It was irrelevant, as it still is.
> 
> >> > > > 4. The government of Indonesia has killed 10% 
> >> > > > of the population of East Timor. The killings 
> >> > > > continue here and now. Why are *you* not up 
> >> > > > in arms about that?
>  
> >> > > Haven't heard about. The news is usually bursting 
> >> > > with Middle East stories so there is little room left 
> >> > > to report other incidents.
>  
> >> > Pretty feeble, Anthony.
> 
> >> I was quite serious.
> 
> >So was I.
> 
> I agree that it is pretty feeble. 

You wound me, John! My words rang true, I say! Am I, then, to be held
responsible for the actions of some cad at the local television station who
sees fit to affirm the importance of Middle Eastern antics above all other
things?

> If you want to talk about Middle Eastern politics, you 
> are welcome to try a Middle Eastern politics newsgroup. 

Thank you kindly, John, but I must humble myself and beg pardon for I believe
Zionism and its works form a..."peripheral" part of this newsgroup.

> Or, if the discussion is relevant to very newsgroup, try
> rec.pets.dogs. 

> Or are you here because you have said 
> to yourself, "Uh, wull, it has somethin' ta do with Jews."

You hurt me again, John! (I am beginning to get the distinct impression that
you -- *gasp!* -- dislike me!) But surely I should be held to blame for not
making my earlier words clearer. If you would entertain the notion of visiting
Deja News (http://www.dejanews.com) and searching for the original article, I
believe I have a slim chance of convincing you that when I spoke those words
to Sir Herman Hedtoft the Great Dane, I was merely asking him what _the post
he was replying to_ had to do with Jews. Need I explain further?

> >> > > > 5. Do you have any idea how irrelevant your 
> >> > > > objection is?
> 
> >> > > Is it more or less relevant than this post from 
> >> > > you?
> 
> >> No answer?
> 
> My post was directly relevant to the irrelevance of 
> your objection.

Ah, so you seem to be saying that it was, in fact, _equally_ relevant. Did I
misunderstand?

> You have a strange lack of curiosity about why I think 
> your objection is irrelevant. 

Possibly because I am not all _that_ interested, but we shan't venture there
just now.

> But I will tell you why anyway. Your objection is
> simply a variation on the "absence of proof" fallacy. 
> In the absence of proof of the contrary, you have 
> assumed that everyone who opposes either 
> antisemitism or Holocaust denial is a "Nizkook" 
> and a rabid pro-Zionist partisan.

Oh, dear! I must again humbly beg your indulgence to explain. In truth, what
you presented above has little to do with my criteria for labeling "Nizkooks"
and "rabid pro-Zionist partisans". I assure you that those already graced with
the title "Nizkook" have rightly earned it through months of hard work.

A second point I would like to profess concerns the labeling of "rabid
pro-Zionist partisans". I do not usually confer that title to anyone without
asking that person a serious of questions. If you recall, I do not believe I
ever accused _you_ of such!

> If you want to know why it is a fallacious objections
> try this one: in the absence of proof to the contrary, 
> I assume that Anthony Sabatini is a homosexual. Do 
> you see now why absence of proof is not proof of
> the contrary position?

Oh, yes, Sir! Thank you for imparting such pearls of wisdom to one such as I.
You have bestowed a great thing on me this day, John Morris. Let me assure you
that it shall not be forgotten! Of that, you have my word!

> >> > > > I know this will come as a shock to your 
> >> > > > sheltered sensibilities, Anthony, but there 
> >> > > > actually are people who deny the Holocaust 
> >> > > > and who falsify history in order to sustain 
> >> > > > their denial. I can think of no other historical 
> >> > > > event which has an organized campaign of 
> >> > > > denial associated with it.
>  
> >> > > So let's discuss that. What is the scope of this 
> >> > > "campaign"? 
> 
> International.

Oh, my! That large, eh?

> >> > > How "organized" do you think they are? 
> 
> Organized enough to publish a journal, to run a publishing 
> house, to seed college newspapers with advertisements, 
> to hold conferences, and, in the case of Zuendel, to make 
> rather a handsome living selling his wares into Germany.

Methinks you are describing those irascible scalawags at the ADL, SWC, WJC,
CJC, AJC, B'nai B'rith and all its ill-begotten spawn, along with a host of
other such organizations. Surely not...?!?

> >> > >When you say they "deny the Holocaust", what 
> >> > >exactly to do mean? (Before answering that you'll 
> >> > >have to give us a definition of what "the Holocaust" 
> >> > >encompasses.) 
> 
> They deny the attempted genocide of the European Jews 
> between 1941 and 1945.

Oh. But let me ask a more specific question. Please indulge me, if you will.
Can one believe that countless Jews were shot to death but not gassed and
still avoid the dread label "denier"? If not, why not?

> >> > > And who is this "they"? 
> 
> Take your pick. The IHR and CODOH (really the same thing). 
> Samisdat Press. The Adelaide Institute. Radio Islam. Serge 
> Thion's little grouplet in France. All those neo-Nazi web sites 
> you seem so blissfully unaware of. Try Hatewatch.

But these groups you name seem so varied in goals, ideas and politics! Do you
mean to say that they put aside their differences to form a unified front to
push their ultimate goal? And just what might goal be? Do you have any clue?

> Do you really not know the answer to this question, or 
> are just being coy?

Not at all. I know most of the sites you mentioned but was unaware of any
concentrated effort at undermining the sanctity of the Holocaust. You efforts
at elucidation are not for naught, let me assure you!

> >> > > A conspiracy of some sort? 
> 
> Perhaps. Greg Raven of the IHR once inadvertently posted 
> a header from his private mailing list to a listserv group 
> called germanica-l. It included members of the Zundelteam, 
> CODOH, the IHR, some National Alliance members at one 
> time prominent in Usenet, Frederick Toben of the Adelaide 
> Institute, Jeff Roberts who currently runs the "Nation of
> Europa" website in England, and a few names I don't recognize.

A "mailing list"? How nefarious! I'm sorry, John, but I don't believe this bit
your present here has any more meaning that a personal distribution list in an
e-mail account.

> Although they don't make their association public, they 
> also do not--or are not very good at--keep it a secret. 
> Clearly, though, they do consult with each other on 
> matters of common cause, and they are organized 
> internationally. 

Like what? What "matters of common cause"? Will you give me an example,
please?

> Heck, they all go to the IHR conferences. But I am a 
> member of the International Medieval Institute, and I 
> go to conferences, too.  

Yes, as do the ADL, SWC, B'nai B'rith and all the rest. These groups regularly
hold conferences to discuss "matters of common cause", share information and
whatever else they do.

> So whether that qualifies as a conspiracy, I'll
> leave for you to decide.

I'm not sure. What would _you_ call the apparent alliance of the various
groups I have named?

> >> > > Who are its members? 
> 
> You could get a pretty good idea by looking at 
> Greg Raven's website.

I'll have a look. Is there anything in particular I should watch out for?

> >> > > What do they do to further their cause 
> >> > > and how? 
> 
> Covered above _passim_.

Well, OK.

> >> > > Is there one or more leaders involved? 
> 
> I have no idea how they organize themselves politically.
> 
> >> > > Who are these people?
> 
> Didn't you already ask that question?

My sincerest apologies, John. I meant to ask who these "leaders" were.

> >> > > Why do they do what they do? 
> 
> Their motives are varied, but, by and large, I would 
> say it is because they hate Jews or they hate Israel. 

Oh. And in your opinion, why would you say are the motivations of the various
so-called 'Jewish-interests groups'?

> Serge Thion is an odd duck. He denies the Holocaust 
> because it can't be explained by his version of Marxian 
> class analysis. I kid you not.

Does the Electronic Holocaust site have any smea--I mean information on him?

> >> > > Are they succeeding? 
> 
> Despite the considerable role of wishful thinking in their
> undertaking, no. Every few years they announce the 
> impending death of the "Holocaust myth" in "one or two 
> years at most." Usually they think they have got hold of 
> that one damning bit of evidence, that one crushing fact 
> that will make the whole myth unravel. Or so they 
> believe. 

Hmmm. Sounds sort of like the propaganda speeches surround the terrorist state
of Israel. You know, "This year for sure!" and all that hogwash.

> Like you, they do not seem to be terribly familiar with 
> how history works as a discipline. 

Alas, I am but a lowly software developer unworthy of such concerns.

> Unlike you, they are quite conversant with the varieties 
> of standard historiography, ad they have tons of facts. 

Sir, I must protest! I can quote you veritable _reams_ of "facts", but I fear
it shan't make a difference in how you view the angelic organizations that
move me to (electronic) quill.

> Unfortunately, they have no idea of how to interpret the 
> facts *except* tendentiously. IOW they use several 
> varieties of logical fallacies to prove prior conclusions.

Ah, I see. You mean they see things through their own particular point of
view. Is that it?

> >> > > What effects will their plot(s) entail (both short- 
> >> > > and long-term)?
> 
> On the plus side, I have to credit them with a renewal of 
> interest in the Holocaust, 

This is indeed most unfortunate, for I believe we must move on with our lives
rather than continuously bemoaning our past plight and travails -- both real
and imagined -- and constantly dwelling on the past.

> and more finely-grained and contingent historiography
> from historians.

I see. You mean to say that these holocaust scholars have had to correct the
various, er, oversights made by them in the past and reconcile the whole in
light of newer, um, theories.

> In the long run, it is hard to say. Probably no lasting 
> effects at all. 

And imagine all the time, effort and money being wasted trying to suppress
them! Why, it boggles the mind! For example, please see:

http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html

> But if there were a radical shift to the right in politics, 
> they might find themselves arguing to school boards 
> that the "other side" should be taught just as creationists 
> have already done. Then I suppose historians will have 
> to confront their own discipline in much the same way 
> scientists did when threatened by creationism. 

Yes, Heaven forfend we teach our children about our religion, morals and
culture in schools!

> OTOH, if the shift to the right were so radical that 
> Holocaust denial was entertained as serious history, 
> they could solve the problem simply by taking all 
> the historians out and having them shot.

Oh, John! Your wit remains...singular.
 
> >> > Do you read *any* articles in this newsgroup, 
> >> > other than flame opportunities?
> 
> >> Yes.
> 
> Judging from your "serious" questions, I would say not.

I can only offer my humblest apologies.

[a trite issue with Gord McFee removed]

> >> > > > If you don't think that's a good enough 
> >> > > > reason for someone to take an interest 
> >> > > > in the subject, too bad.
>  
> >> > > For who?
>  
> >> > You.
> 
> >> I doubt that.
> 
> >I expected you would.
> 
> Let me rephrase that. 

Certainly.

> I can think of no other historical event which has 
> an organized campaign of denial associated with it. 

I believe Mr. Bellinger has some words for you on that matter. As to myself, I
am afraid I do not deign answer. With my apologies, of course.

> If you don't think that's a good enough reason for 
> someone to take an interest in the subject, tough 
> shit.

Perhaps you might try Ex-Lax? I've heard tell it works wonders on these
problems you seem to exhibit.

[signature file removed. Permanent-like.]




From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:23 EST 1997
Article: 145238 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where is Phillips?
Date: 29 Oct 1997 06:03:45 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <01bce42f$b38decf0$7da2cdcd@odin>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.125
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145238

Chuck Ferree  wrote in article
...
> From Chuck Ferree:

Do you type this in yourself?

We know it's from you, Chuck! When are you _ever_ gonna get or learn how to
use a decent newsreader?

> Has Sabatini taken Phillips place? Or is Sabatini Phillips, 
> or is Phillips Sabatini?

What are you on about, Chuck?

> Seems Sabatini is using Phillips asinine questions to keep 
> the ball rolling.

What "ball"? And why is it "rolling"?

[silly, emotion-laden .sig put to bed. Real permanent-like.]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:24 EST 1997
Article: 145239 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where is the hotshot...dick phillips?
Date: 29 Oct 1997 06:05:49 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <01bce42f$fdf9e5a0$7da2cdcd@odin>
References: <19971029055201.AAA04952@ladder02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.125
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145239

ChuckF2323  wrote in article
<19971029055201.AAA04952@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
> what happened to this airhead? Did he go back to school? 

Maybe you scared him off with all your macho talk?

> Did get he get a job, and hopefully a life? Or did he 
> just lick his wounds and realize he was in the wrong 
> place at the right time?

> He was a pain in the ass anyway.

Well, _you're_ not too far from that either, Chuck!

[.sig put to sleep]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:25 EST 1997
Article: 145253 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approximation, Mr. Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <342a66ef.236715940@news.jump.net> <34619b43.5173677@news.demon.co.uk>  <34528afa.2901712@news.demon.co.uk>  <3456c866.2263780@news.demon.co.uk> <3451a686.604668989@news.jump.net> <345a71af.2830902@news.demon.co.uk> <3457447c.1885017@news.jump.net> <01bce27f$f082a8f0$9b938bcf@odin> <3456a268.4859730@news.jump.net> <345e5be0.30911924@news.v-wave.com> <01bce35f$24521a50$787acdcd@odin> <34574c41.1057434@news.v-wave.com>
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145253

John Morris  wrote in article
<34574c41.1057434@news.v-wave.com>...
> In <01bce35f$24521a50$787acdcd@odin>, on 28 Oct 97 05:09:58 GMT,
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >John Morris  wrote in article
> ><345e5be0.30911924@news.v-wave.com>...
> >> In <3456a268.4859730@news.jump.net>, on Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:20:44 GMT,
> >> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

[...]

> >> >What historians use this Peer stuff? I know, you 
> >> >don't care that he isn't used. 
> >> 
> >> No historians refer to Peer. In fact, Peer would today 
> >> be a complete unknown had Orest Slepokura not been 
> >> so diligent in rooting out potential antisemitica from 
> >> the back pages of the Montreal Gazette.
> >
> >My God, but you have a knack for the melodramatic!
> 
> Golly, you have a knack for content-free statements.

Is that more or less than your own ability to create such statements?

> Orest Slepokura's speciality is collecting newspaper 
> articles which show Jews in a bad light. 

What scholarly discipline does one take to learn these arts?

> He has collected hundreds of articles which
> he used to post to Usenet at regular intervals:
> 
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/s/slepokura.orest

Damn, but those smear files at the Nizkult site come in handy!

> If you find Slepokura's hobby melodramatic (whatever that 
> means), blame Slepokura, not me.

Another FREE clue for John Morris courtesy of myself and my trusty The
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition:

mel·o·dra·mat·ic (mèl´e-dre-màt¹îk) adjective
1.	Having the excitement and emotional appeal of melodrama: “a melodramatic
account of two perilous days spent among the planters” (Frank O. Gatell).
2.	Exaggeratedly emotional or sentimental; histrionic: “Accuse me, if you
will, of melodramatic embroidery” (Erskine Childers). See synonyms at
dramatic.
3.	Characterized by false pathos and sentiment.
— mel´o·dra·mat¹i·cal·ly adverb

In case you are interested, I characterized *your* description of Mr.
Slepokura's activities as "melodramatic".

Gee, John, for someone who claims to have studied English you sure ask for
lots of definitions... I was even helpful enough to supply you with the
definition of "persuasion" you were hollering about in another thread,
specifically in the context in which Mr. Ives uses it. This latter clue was
also FREE of charge.

> >> Peer's sole claim to fame, in fact, is a single article on August 5,
> >> 1993 in the West Island News section of the Montreal Gazette. Peer
> >> gave a talk to a synagogue youth group which was reported on by Karen
> >> Seidman. Seidman told me when I called her in January 1996 that
> >> several readers called in the days that followed her report
> >> complaining that Peer's claims were quite impossible, not least
> >> because there was no mass gassing at Bergen-Belsen.
>  
> >> It's a local call for Anthony. He can check with Seidman herself by
> >> calling the West Island Bureau of the Gazette.
> 
> >What am I supposed to ask about? You want an autograph, too?
> 
> My apologies. I thought you might be interested in something besides
> venting.
> 
> As so bloody typically usual, you assume that a difference 
> of opinion is proof of your opponent's dishonesty. 

Excuse me, sir, but where in this message have I alluded to you being
"dishonest"? Might it not be time for you to pop a valium?

> Why should I want an autograph from Peer?

Posterity?

> Anthony? Hello? 

Hullo.

> I don't think Peer is telling the truth. 

I never accused you of believing in Moshe's fairy tales, have I?

> What I am interested in finding out is whether he knows 
> that he is not telling the truth. 

I see. Would you honestly like me to contact him? What would I say?

> I'm sorry if you lack the imagination and basic human
> kindness to take seriously the idea that a nine year old
> boy might be traumatized by being arrested and by 
> losing his parents. And wherever you place the blame 
> for the conditions at Belsen, Peer was imprisoned
> at Belsen, not Boystown.

Clap. Clap. Clap. Your appeal to emotion has been noted. Please ask me again
about "melodramatic".

> Neither you nor I know whether Peer is simply a flat 
> out liar or someone with traumatic false memories or 
> a combination of the two. But you have made up your 
> mind.

Yes, based on the evidence, I have. What's the matter? Isn't this the way it's
supposed to be done? If not, why not entertain the notion that gas chambers
were really showers? After all, *you* don't really "know", do you?

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:26 EST 1997
Article: 145267 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sabatini Comes Through (was Re: Sabatini - Hostilities, Civilities and Apologies (Was: Re: Grese on Trial))
Date: 29 Oct 1997 05:12:00 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <01bce428$7ae787f0$7da2cdcd@odin>
References: <01bce1b2$8c7ad620$55a1cdcd@odin> <3453d254.9630000@news.hrc-counsel.net> <01bce295$97b6b7f0$9b938bcf@odin> <34569861.180601748@news.wcg.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.162.125
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.white-power:100388 alt.politics.nationalism.white:79921 alt.revisionism:145267

Steve Bostick  wrote in article
<34569861.180601748@news.wcg.net>...
> On 27 Oct 97 05:06:58 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> >> 					Sincerely yours,
> >> 		Daniel Jonah Goldblattsteinbergskiwicz
> >
> >Sick, sick, sick!
> 
> >Seek help!
> 
> He is sick! I'd prefer to see Hilary ass naked, spread 
> eagled and on satin sheets covered with Hershey syrup 
> and a big red cherry stuck you know where! ;-)

Good God! Reading this post nearly made me vomit! Even that savage fairy, the
inimitable Markie-pooh Van Alstine, would surely be hard-pressed matching such
utter vileness and filth. Well...at least I think so... After all:

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this inbred mule, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:27 EST 1997
Article: 145303 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Dick Phillips, Superstar, vs Mock, Curtis, and Ferree
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <344A8B10.4FA4@earthlink.net> <344a9cac.15908369@news.jump.net> <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>  <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net> <01bcde6d$4e4f6980$1ea2cdcd@odin> <344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bcdf41$236dadb0$550bcdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.11.85
Date: 22 Oct 97 23:24:47 GMT
Lines: 54
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!ais.net!iagnet.net!194.59.190.100!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!recycled.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.205.11.85
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145303

steve mock  wrote in article
<344E4062.85FD1F0@netwave.ca>...
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> 
> > Richard G. Phillips  wrote in article
> > <344D15E1.1ECF@earthlink.net>...
> > > Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > > > In article <344C1B09.C29@earthlink.net>, rgphill@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > > > Look, sonny. I was using libraries long before you ever had
> > > > > a nipple in your mouth.
> > >
> > > > Uh huh. Using libraries to come out of the rain in don't count,
> > > > Phillips. (This assumes, of course, that Phillips is _smart_ 
> > > > enough to come in out of the rain....)
> > >
> > > I am wondering if some helpful soul out there will supply the 
> > > subtitles I need to make some sense of what this semi-coherent 
> > > twerp is trying to say.
> >
> > It's really quite simple. Van Alstine has got any goddamn plans or 
> > evidence of any sort, so he's reverting to his bestial nature and 
> > engaging in ad hominem.
> >
> > Come now, Mr. Phillips! I mean, after reading even three or four 
> > of Markie-pooh's guttural braying sessions I'd think you would 
> > have realized this by now!
> 
> Funny.  All I've seen in his posts are excepts of documents as 
> quoted in "Technique.." by Pressac and "Anatomy of Auschwitz" 
> by Gutman et, al.  But I guess since Sabatini can't deal with the 
> evidence Mr. Van Alstine presents, he has to wait until Mr. Val 
> Alstine loses his patience with the fact that deniers don't deal 
> with the evidence he presents.  

And what "evidence" would that be? Since Van Alstine has access to a scanner,
why doesn't he simply scan the picture of these gas chamber plans and post
that instead of lengthy tracts of hot air? It's really that simple. Then
again, simplicity is often at odds with the Nizkook modus operandi.

> Then the hypocrite Sabatini can refer to Mr. Van Alstine as 
> "bestial" and his posts as "gutteral braying sessions" whilst
> simultaneously accusing him of  engaging in "ad hominem".

And truthful in every one! Of course, few -- if any -- expect a Nizkook to be
man enough to admit to their fellow traveler's faults or errors. Case in
point, Mock here will never accept the fact that Van Alstine _has_ acted
"bestial" in the past few days. And then he even speaks of "hypocrites"! It is
to laugh.

[.sig kicked. Hard.]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 10:27:28 EST 1997
Article: 145326 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Where is the hotshot...dick phillips?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971029055201.AAA04952@ladder02.news.aol.com> <01bce42f$fdf9e5a0$7da2cdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce47d$0c37a6f0$9337eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.147
Date: 29 Oct 97 15:16:19 GMT
Lines: 40
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.55.147
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145326

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce42f$fdf9e5a0$7da2cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > ChuckF2323  wrote in article
> > <19971029055201.AAA04952@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> > >
> > > what happened to this airhead? Did he go back to school? 
> > 
> > Maybe you scared him off with all your macho talk?
> > 
> > > Did get he get a job, and hopefully a life? Or did he 
> > > just lick his wounds and realize he was in the wrong 
> > > place at the right time?
> > 
> > > He was a pain in the ass anyway.
> > 
> > Well, _you're_ not too far from that either, Chuck!
> 
> In that case, Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" 
> Sabatini is a hemorrhoid!

In that case, Markie-pooh 'The Savage Fairy' Van Alstine is _still_ a
butt-slamming moron.

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) sprayed with a can of Raid (tm)]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:46 EST 1997
Article: 145329 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Details on a diabolical conspiracy here (was: Phillips vs Mock III)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bce2f5$12faea30$80b113cc@odin> <01bce323$88c5dbc0$84b113cc@odin>  <3455d71d.0@news.primary.net>  <01bce3d5$09c47360$90a2cdcd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce47b$4ddb9dc0$9337eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.147
Date: 29 Oct 97 15:03:51 GMT
Lines: 157
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.55.147
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145329

Mark Van Alstine, the Savage Fairy,  brayed in article
...
> In article <01bce3d5$09c47360$90a2cdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Daniel Keren  wrote in article
> > ...
> > > Alex Vange  writes:
> > > 
> > > # When Mr. Leuchter examined the rooms he found no 
> > > # evidence of a ventilation system that would be need 
> > > # for homicidal gassings.
> > > 
> > > Yes. But this is the same Leuchter who claims to be an
> > > engineer, though he holds only a BA in the arts. 
> > 
> > And you, who holds a degree in Computer Science, also 
> > make grandiose statements concerning gas chambers. 
> > Strange, that...
> > 
> > > This is the same Leuchter who claimed that the HCN 
> > > gas would "rise towards the SS-men and kill them" 
> > > (he never heard about gas masks, routinely used 
> > > when working with Zyklon-B). Etc.
> > 
> > How many and where were these "gas masks" found, 
> > if any?
> 
> Typical infantile response from Anthony "beat 'em with 
> > a pickaxe" Sabatini. 

IOW, you haven't a friggin' clue, do you, Markie-pooh?

> Is Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" Sabatini suggesting 
> that Auschwitz SS _didn't_ use gas masks when applying 
> Zyklon B? 

I am "suggesting" nothing of the kind (although I realize that won't stop you
silly kooks from putting words in my mouth). I am asking if any were found,
and -- more importantly -- under what circumstances. That is, where were they
found and how. How many were found?

> If not, then issue if gas masks were (or were not) found 
> at Auschwitz is (besides being a lame canard) moot.

Yes, we understand. Anything which you cannot provide substantial and
undeniable proof of is a "lame canard" and "moot". No surprise there!

> Be that as it may, according to Ho"ss: 
> 
> 

[...]

> 
> 
> Source: Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.30.
> 
> ...And from NI-9912, "Directives for the use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for
> the Desctruction of Vermin (Disinfestation)": 
> 
> 

[...]

> 
> 
> Source: Pressac, _Technique_, pp.18,19.
> 
> ...And according to Dr. Nyiszli:
> 
> 

[...]

> 
> 
> Source: Nyiszli, _Auschwitz_, pp.50-51.
> 
> ...And according to Henryk Tauber:
> 
> 

[...]

> 
> 
> Source: Pressac, _Technique_, p.494.
> 
> The type of gas masks used, according to Pressac, is represented by the
> following:
> 
> 

[...]

> 
> 
> Source: Pressac, _Technique_, p.495.
> 
> From the above accounts we can see that Tesch & 
> Stabenow initially carried out disinfestations at Auschwitz 
> under the "strictest safety measures;" that these safety 
> measures, as desrcibed in NI-9912, required that gas
> masks with a special "J" filter cartridge be worn while 
> fumigating and airing the building; that Tesch & Stabenow 
> then trained members of the Auschwitz SS Medical Corps 
> to carry out disinfections; and that these members of the  
> Medical Corps (SDG) later carried out homicidal gassings
> at Auschwitz while wearing gas masks.

Very nice, but that's not what I asked.

[...]

> > > # Revisionists have agreed to the gassing cellar term
> > > # used in a document, so I can accept that as possibly
> > > # authentic. Why can't it have some other explanation,
> > > # such as the cellar in which the insecticide Zyklon B
> > > # was stored?
> > > 
> > > Because "gassing cellar" (vergasungskeller) means "a cellar
> > > in which gassing takes place". Your "explanation" is, at least,
> > > the fifth one offered by "revisionists". 
> > 
> > Is it?
> 
> Another infantile response from Anthony "beat 'em with a 
> pickaxe" Sabatini. Is Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" 
> Sabatini suggesting that the presence of cyanides found in 
> the ruins [1] of, and on ventilation grills [2] from, L.Keller 1 
> was the result of _storing_ Zyklon B in L.Keller 1? 

No, I am simply asking if this is the "fifth ['explanation'] offered by
'revisionists'". What are the others?

[...]

> Be that as it may, eyewitness accounts relate that Zyklon B was
> transported to the crematoriums during each gassing. 

Yes, we know. The "eyewitness accounts relate" much.

[snip, including silly .sig and notorious VanSlander (tm)]

Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misanthropic ass, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:48 EST 1997
Article: 145331 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.voicenet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!WCG!not-for-mail
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Again, how the numbers came to be (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Date: 29 Oct 1997 15:45:10 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <01bce480$ee31f710$9337eccd@odin>
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin> <3455508c$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce360$3bfb6cf0$787acdcd@odin> <6342h1$ome$2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <01bce3b4$eea09110$db7acdcd@odin>  <636is0$bv2$3@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.147
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145331

Richard Schultz  wrote in article
<636is0$bv2$3@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>...
> Mark Van Alstine (mvanalst@rbi.com) wrote:
> : In article <01bce3b4$eea09110$db7acdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> : > Richard Schultz  wrote in article
> 
> ::: [How did Mr. Sabatini estimate the following]:
> 
> ::: (1) The number killed in the firebombing of Dresden 
> ::: in WWII
> 
> :: 14 deaths, 182 injuries.
> 
> : And. . . how did Anthony. . . Sabatini "estimate" this? 
> 
> More to the point in this case -- the question I asked wasn't 
> what was the number, but *how he determined the number*.

Sorry, but I don't have physical remains. I took how many people survived
(even though many people fled after the bombing!) and subtracted that from the
largest number of inhabitants of the city ever recorded. Even though the plans
for these weapons were never truly found, we do have the floor layouts of an
American military bunker. That should be enough for anyone.

> Note that the number he arrived at indicates that he 
> believes that the revisionists are  wrong, and there was no 
> large-scale destruction of Dresden as a result of Allied 
> bombing during World War II.

Typical denier canard. Who do you think you are fooling?

> ::: (2) The number killed during Stalin's regime
> 
> :: 946,923,230 death, 81 injuries.
> 
> : And . . . how did Anthony. . . Sabatini "estimate" this? 
> 
> I'd be interested, in addition, how he explains how Stalin 
> managed to kill several times more people than lived in 
> the USSR.

The various eyewitness testimonies I have make these claims. Surely you don't
believe that these eyewitness were exaggerating, do you? Have you no
compassion for the relatives of the dead? You animal!

> ::: (3) The number who died of the influenza pandemic after WWI
> 
> :: 0 deaths (they all recovered)
> 
> : And . . . how did Anthony. . . Sabatini "estimate" this? 
> 
> I'd be interested, in addition, how he explains all of those people 
> who were buried after WW I and reported as having died of 
> influenza, and how he explains the newspaper reports of the 
> influenza pandemic.

The newspapers later explained how they were in error originally reporting
seeing what they saw. Profuse apologies were offered as well as a lengthy
press release begging for mercy.

> ::: (4) The number who died during the Black Plague 
> 
> :: 2,409 deaths (but over 100,000,000 dead and 22 injured rats)
> 
> : And . . . how did Anthony. . . Sabatini "estimate" this? 
> 
> I'd also be interested in how he explains the disruption of much
> of medieval civilization that the contemporaries (let alone 
> modern historians) attributed to the plague.  For that matter, 
> where he got the evidence for the number of rats that died.

Alas, the bodies of the dead rats were dumped into burning pits, but our
eyewitnesses claimed that, years later, seismic activity in the region of the
mass graves indicate a monstrously large number of rat remains were indeed
buried. Further, at least three survivors report seeing a veritable column of
rat bones shoot out of the earth, at least 20' in diameter "reaching for the
Heavens, as if in supplication to enter the Pearly Rat Sewer in the Sky".

Obviously, you are a vile denier and no amount of proof will ever convince
you. In fact, the veneer of your petulant replies and question thinly mask
your virulent anti-Rodentism.

> ::: That he will never ever answer a straightforward question 
> ::: such as this one has been noted.  I draw certain conclusions 
> ::: from that refusal, but I'm sure that the readers of the 
> ::: newsgroup can reach their own.

And readers may see your seething hatred of all things rodent in your replies!

> : Indeed! As evidenced above Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" 
> : Sabatini enjoys playing the fool with his infantile replies.

Either that or I enjoy playing _you_ dolts for the fool. What a thought!

[.sig beaten, fined and imprisoned for hate crimes against rodents]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:49 EST 1997
Article: 145335 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Sci-Fi book of possible intetest
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce478$ea914a50$9337eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.147
Date: 29 Oct 97 14:46:46 GMT
Lines: 63
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.55.147
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145335

I got this from the Amazon.com's Recommendations (Sci-Fi/Fantasy/Horror), an
e-mail sent to customers describing new books in certain categories. This
novel may be of interest to some readers, so I reproduce the information
below.


< begin e-mail >

"Days of Cain" 
by J. R. Dunn 
Publisher: Avon Books

You can find this book and more at
http://www.amazon.com/science-fiction-list

                         ******

J. R. Dunn doesn't pull any punches with his first novel, a time travel story
about a group of rebels who try to prevent the horror at Auschwitz from
happening. Dunn doesn't hesitate to dive into the messy question of why, if
time travel is possible and both past and
future events can be changed, any atrocities are allowed to happen. There are
no easy answers, but surprisingly Dunn does offer some thought-provoking ones.

Those answers, of course, lie in the pages of his novel, specifically in the
story of Gaspar James. James works as a Monitor for the Moiety, and his job
has been to oversee the 24th century and make sure that no breaches of time
integrity (such as the Auschwitz
rebellion) are allowed to succeed. The Moiety is charged with maintaining the
continuity of time at all costs, even though it frequently means ensuring that
events such as Auschwitz run their course. James is just one cog in a mighty
wheel that spans all of time, to a point so far in the future that the
hyperadvanced beings who inhabit the universe then can barely communicate with
those "downline." But it's from those beings that James receives his marching
orders, orders whose ends he can't hope to comprehend but that he has sworn to
follow.

It's a situation that has more than a few disturbing similarities with
Auschwitz itself, where many horrific crimes were carried out under the guise
of "just following orders." James--brought in to replace the 20th-century
Monitor, who resigned rather than face the Auschwitz problem--seems inured to
the parallels, having long ago cast his lot with the Moiety. But when he
learns that the rebel leader is his former protegee Alma Lewin, things become
complicated for him. Lewin is that one person in a million who can convince
others to stop the wrongs going on around them, to look at the horrors of the
universe and choose not to participate in them. And she's the only person who
can make James question the basic values in which he has always believed.

"Days of Cain" is a fairly challenging story for any writer to take on,
especially given that many events in the novel take place inside Auschwitz.
But Dunn tackles the difficult scenes and writes some disturbing prose in the
process--disturbing because it does a wonderful job of describing horrific
incidents. By the end of the story he does not shy away from offering concrete
answers to the question of "Why?" that Lewin and James ask so poignantly.

"Days of Cain" is unsettling, but it is also worth reading and is a story that
probably needed to be told.

--Craig E. Engler is the editor and publisher of Science Fiction Weekly, an
electronic publication covering the world of science fiction.

< end e-mail >



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:50 EST 1997
Article: 145337 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Again, how the numbers came to be (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin> <3455508c$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce360$3bfb6cf0$787acdcd@odin> <6342h1$ome$2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <01bce3b4$eea09110$db7acdcd@odin>  <636is0$bv2$3@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce481$fbbec970$9337eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.147
Date: 29 Oct 97 15:51:39 GMT
Lines: 96
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!oronet!uniserve!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.55.147
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145337

Richard Schultz  wrote in article
<636is0$bv2$3@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>...
> Mark Van Alstine (mvanalst@rbi.com) wrote:
> : In article <01bce3b4$eea09110$db7acdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> : > Richard Schultz  wrote in article
> 
> ::: [How did Mr. Sabatini estimate the following]:
> 
> ::: (1) The number killed in the firebombing of Dresden 
> ::: in WWII
> 
> :: 14 deaths, 182 injuries.
> 
> : And. . . how did Anthony. . . Sabatini "estimate" this? 
> 
> More to the point in this case -- the question I asked wasn't 
> what was the number, but *how he determined the number*.

Sorry, but I don't have physical remains. I took how many people survived
(even though many people fled after the bombing!) and subtracted that from the
largest number of inhabitants of the city ever recorded. Even though the plans
for these weapons were never truly found, we do have the floor layouts of an
American military bunker. That should be enough for anyone.

> Note that the number he arrived at indicates that he 
> believes that the revisionists are  wrong, and there was no 
> large-scale destruction of Dresden as a result of Allied 
> bombing during World War II.

Typical denier canard. Who do you think you are fooling?

> ::: (2) The number killed during Stalin's regime
> 
> :: 946,923,230 death, 81 injuries.
> 
> : And . . . how did Anthony. . . Sabatini "estimate" this? 
> 
> I'd be interested, in addition, how he explains how Stalin 
> managed to kill several times more people than lived in 
> the USSR.

The various eyewitness testimonies I have make these claims. Surely you don't
believe that these eyewitness were exaggerating, do you? Have you no
compassion for the relatives of the dead? You animal!

> ::: (3) The number who died of the influenza pandemic after WWI
> 
> :: 0 deaths (they all recovered)
> 
> : And . . . how did Anthony. . . Sabatini "estimate" this? 
> 
> I'd be interested, in addition, how he explains all of those people 
> who were buried after WW I and reported as having died of 
> influenza, and how he explains the newspaper reports of the 
> influenza pandemic.

The newspapers later explained how they were in error originally reporting
seeing what they saw. Profuse apologies were offered as well as a lengthy
press release begging for mercy.

> ::: (4) The number who died during the Black Plague 
> 
> :: 2,409 deaths (but over 100,000,000 dead and 22 injured rats)
> 
> : And . . . how did Anthony. . . Sabatini "estimate" this? 
> 
> I'd also be interested in how he explains the disruption of much
> of medieval civilization that the contemporaries (let alone 
> modern historians) attributed to the plague.  For that matter, 
> where he got the evidence for the number of rats that died.

Alas, the bodies of the dead rats were dumped into burning pits, but our
eyewitnesses claimed that, years later, seismic activity in the region of the
mass graves indicate a monstrously large number of rat remains were indeed
buried. Further, at least three survivors report seeing a veritable column of
rat bones shoot out of the earth, at least 20' in diameter "reaching for the
Heavens, as if in supplication to enter the Pearly Rat Sewer in the Sky".

Obviously, you are a vile denier and no amount of proof will ever convince
you. In fact, the veneer of your petulant replies and question thinly mask
your virulent anti-Rodentism.

> ::: That he will never ever answer a straightforward question 
> ::: such as this one has been noted.  I draw certain conclusions 
> ::: from that refusal, but I'm sure that the readers of the 
> ::: newsgroup can reach their own.

And readers may see your seething hatred of all things rodent in your replies!

> : Indeed! As evidenced above Anthony "beat 'em with a pickaxe" 
> : Sabatini enjoys playing the fool with his infantile replies.

Either that or I enjoy playing _you_ dolts for the fool. What a thought!

[.sig beaten, fined and imprisoned for hate crimes against rodents]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:51 EST 1997
Article: 145338 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Again, how the numbers came to be (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin> <3455508c$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce360$3bfb6cf0$787acdcd@odin> <34569082$5$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <3456FFD1.1C1@capital.net> <34570100.75BF@capital.net> <01bce42d$3898cad0$7da2cdcd@odin> <34577895.7A0D@capital.net>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce47d$9cf5f160$9337eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.147
Date: 29 Oct 97 15:20:22 GMT
Lines: 49
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.55.147
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145338

Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo  wrote in article
<34577895.7A0D@capital.net>...
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> > 
> > Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo  wrote in article
> > <34570100.75BF@capital.net>...
> > > Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo wrote:
> > > > Gord McFee wrote:
> > > > > In <01bce360$3bfb6cf0$787acdcd@odin>, on 10/28/97
> > > > > at 05:17 AM, "Anthony Sabatini"
> > > > >  said:
> > > >
> > > > Sabatine writes (spealing of Mike Stein):
> > > >
> > > > > > > Anyway, Mike can speak for himself.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gord McFee replies:
> > > >
> > > > > > I saw one brief message from his today. But other than
> > > > > > that, I haven't seen him around in a while.
> > 
> > [snip]
> > 
> > > ADDENDUM:
> > >
> > >
> > >     Obviously, it 'was' late spelling wise! Make that 'SABATINI writes
> > > (SPEAKING of Mike Stein'). There. The rest remains, ;-)
> > 
> > Except that you confused Gord for me and vice versa at the top where you
> > explain who said what.
> 
> 
> Anthony:
> 
>      Mea culpa. Clearly, some evenings it doesn't pay to post! :-(

Yeah, I know what you mean.

> DOC TONY
> 
> PS But the jail/Peer schtik 'would' be a good tag team debate!!!

What is there to "debate"? Keren insists he knows why I said what I said and
has demonstrated steadfast refusal to listen to reason. As such, why should I
_ever_ stop posting Peer's fantasy stories? Watching Keren defend these
utterly inane tales is fun!



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:52 EST 1997
Article: 145341 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Where is the hotshot...dick phillips?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971029055201.AAA04952@ladder02.news.aol.com> <01bce42f$fdf9e5a0$7da2cdcd@odin> <3456f392.7818452@news.uniserve.com>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce47c$664a3c30$9337eccd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.55.147
Date: 29 Oct 97 15:11:50 GMT
Lines: 275
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.total.net!205.236.55.147
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145341

The Ostroll (aka Hilary Ostrov)  bleated in article
<3456f392.7818452@news.uniserve.com>...

[who cares?]


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end



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:53 EST 1997
Article: 145362 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Again, how the numbers came to be (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin> <3455508c$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce360$3bfb6cf0$787acdcd@odin> <6342h1$ome$2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <01bce3b4$eea09110$db7acdcd@odin>  <636is0$bv2$3@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <01bce480$ee31f710$9337eccd@odin> <637tmc$shi$1@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce49d$be816240$907acdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.205.122.144
Date: 29 Oct 97 19:10:29 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145362

Richard Schultz  wrote in article
<637tmc$shi$1@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>...
> Anthony Sabatini (anthonys@not.a.valid.address) wrote:
> : Richard Schultz  wrote in article
> 
> : > ::: (1) The number killed in the firebombing of Dresden  in WWII
> 
> : > :: 14 deaths, 182 injuries.
> 
> : > More to the point in this case -- the question I asked wasn't 
> : > what was the number, but *how he determined the number*.
> 
> : I took how many people survived (even though many people 
> : fled after the bombing!) and subtracted that from the largest 
> : number of inhabitants of the city ever recorded. 
> 
> And your source for these number is. . .?
> 
> : > Note that the number he arrived at indicates that he 
> : > believes that the revisionists are  wrong, and there was no 
> : > large-scale destruction of Dresden as a result of Allied 
> : > bombing during World War II.
> 
> : Typical denier canard. Who do you think you are fooling?
> 
> I'm not sure who you think is a "typical denier."  You have 
> said that you believe that only 14 people died as the result 
> of the Allied bombing of Dresden.  Since the "revisionists" 
> claim that the number is over 100,000, it seems to me that 
> you are disputing their conclusion.
> 
> : > I'd be interested, in addition, how he explains how Stalin 
> : > managed to kill several times more people than lived in 
> : > the USSR.
> 
> : The various eyewitness testimonies I have make these claims. 
> : Surely you don't believe that these eyewitness were 
> : exaggerating, do you? 
> 
> If the eyewitnesses tell me that the number killed is several 
> times larger than the number who lived there, then yes, I 
> believe that they were exaggerating.  Of course since you 
> accept these "eyewitness claims" (for which, I note, you give 
> no source) then your refusal to accept similar eyewitness 
> claims for the holocaust is strange at best and hypocritical
> at worst.  (Although, I hasten to point out, estimates of the 
> Holocaust death tolls were not made from "eyewitness 
> testimony.")
> 
> : > I'd be interested, in addition, how he explains all of 
> : > those people who were buried after WW I and reported 
> : > as having died of influenza, and how he explains the 
> : > newspaper reports of the influenza pandemic.
> 
> : The newspapers later explained how they were in error 
> : originally reporting seeing what they saw. Profuse apologies 
> : were offered as well as a lengthy press release begging for 
> : mercy.
> 
> And your newspaper citation for this claim is. . .?
> 
> : Obviously, you are a vile denier and no amount of proof 
> : will ever convince you. In fact, the veneer of your petulant 
> : replies and question thinly mask your virulent anti-Rodentism.
> 
> Actually, you have not presented any sort of proof -- only your 
> own unsubstantiated claims.  If you would provide an historical 
> source for your claim that very few people died during the Black 
> Plague, I would be more than happy to be convinced by it, were 
> it of sufficient quality to overrule the vast amount of evidence 
> that somewhere between a fourth and a third of Europe's 
> population died as a result of the 14th century Black Plague 
> epidemic.
> 
> [Mark Van Alstine wrote:]
> 
> : > : Indeed! As evidenced above Anthony "beat 'em with a 
> : > : pickaxe" Sabatini enjoys playing the fool with his infantile 
> : > : replies.
> 
> : Either that or I enjoy playing _you_ dolts for the fool. What 
> : a thought!
> 
> Well, since you have claimed that fewer than twenty people 
> died during the bombing of Dresden, no one died during the 
> Influenza Pandemic, and only a couple of thousand died during 
> the Black Plague, while Stalin killed more people than actually 
> lived in the USSR at the time, I would say that the only one 
> here who looks foolish is you, sir.

 Forgive me, Mr. Schultz, but the
stinging irony in the above exchange is simply too much for me.

[.sig beaten, fined and imprisoned for rabid anti-Rodentism]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:54 EST 1997
Article: 145365 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Re Get it through your thick BABYKILLING pro-abort head. Abortion is MURDER, the MURDER of an innocent baby
Newsgroups: alt.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity,alt.flame.abortion,alt.support.abortion,git.talk.abortion,talk.abortion,alt.revisionism
References: <339d7315.53927898@news.pipeline.com> <876331322.18563@dejanews.com> <343BF <876491253.26239@dejanews.com>  <876752336.22672@dejanews.com> <34502DEA.1FF8@earthlink.net> <01bf1b95$61c5e720$8bc5f6ce@jtd>  <01bf1c14$065ac980$afc5f6ce@jtd> <345ea5c4.161419619@news.slip.net> <01bf1ca9$781ed300$8bc5f6ce@jtd> <345736D9.46DC@redsuspenders.com> <6376g2$b2d@argentina.earthlink.net> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce4a1$763d7ce0$907acdcd@odin>
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Date: 29 Oct 97 19:37:08 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.abortion:69517 alt.abortion.inequity:129165 alt.flame.abortion:9588 alt.support.abortion:25720 git.talk.abortion:603 talk.abortion:223537 alt.revisionism:145365

Allan Matthews  wrote in article
...
> In article <6376g2$b2d@argentina.earthlink.net>, 
>   wongm01@earthlink.net says...
> >Christine A. Owens wrote in message 
> >  <345736D9.46DC@redsuspenders.com>...
> >>Rev. Donald Spitz wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Get it through your thick BABYKILLING pro-abort head. 
> >>> Abortion is MURDER,
> >>
> >>Murder is the unlawful killing of an human being.  Since 
> >>abortion is legal, and does not kill an human being, it fails 
> >>on both counts.
> 
> >It is currently legal, but it does kill a human being. Abortion 
> >is the killing of an unborn child.
> 
> No, abortion involves an embryo or fetus, not a child.  That 
> you can't  see the differece is not our problem.

< begin quote >

_Fetuses Can Feel Pain_

October 25, 1997
Web posted at: 11:53 a.m. EDT (1553 GMT) 

LONDON (AP) -- Doctors should consider administering an anesthetic as part of
treatment or abortion of fetuses that are at least 24 weeks old, a British
medical panel reported Friday. 

< end quote >

See http://cnn.com/HEALTH/9710/25/fetal.pain.ap/index.html for the full story.

> > Morally, abortion is murder.
> 
> To you maybe, but not to most people.

< begin quote >

_Fetuses Can Feel Pain_

October 25, 1997
Web posted at: 11:53 a.m. EDT (1553 GMT) 

LONDON (AP) -- Doctors should consider administering an anesthetic as part of
treatment or abortion of fetuses that are at least 24 weeks old, a British
medical panel reported Friday. 

< end quote >

See http://cnn.com/HEALTH/9710/25/fetal.pain.ap/index.html for the full story.

> >>> the MURDER of an innocent baby.
> >>
> >>1.  A baby has been born.  Abortion kills a 
> >>zygote/embryo/fetus.
> >
> >A "zygote/embryo/fetus" is a living unborn child.
> 
> No, a zygote/embryo/fetus is a zygote/embryo/fetus.  

< begin quote >

_Fetuses Can Feel Pain_

October 25, 1997
Web posted at: 11:53 a.m. EDT (1553 GMT) 

LONDON (AP) -- Doctors should consider administering an anesthetic as part of
treatment or abortion of fetuses that are at least 24 weeks old, a British
medical panel reported Friday. 

< end quote >

See http://cnn.com/HEALTH/9710/25/fetal.pain.ap/index.html for the full story.

[snip]



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:55 EST 1997
Article: 145378 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Again, how the numbers came to be (was: 11 or 12 million _is_ an approx...)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <345cd08a.4347033@news.demon.co.uk> <3452a721$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce221$a9359330$d9b113cc@odin> <3453fdf0$20$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce298$1af1c590$9b938bcf@odin> <3455508c$3$tzpsrr$mr2ice@news2.ibm.net> <01bce360$3bfb6cf0$787acdcd@odin> <6342h1$ome$2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <01bce3b4$eea09110$db7acdcd@odin>  <636is0$bv2$3@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <01bce480$ee31f710$9337eccd@odin> <637tmc$shi$1@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <01bce49d$be816240$907acdcd@odin> 
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Date: 29 Oct 97 22:32:45 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145378

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> In article <01bce49d$be816240$907acdcd@odin>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Richard Schultz  wrote in article
> > <637tmc$shi$1@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>...
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > > Well, since you have claimed that fewer than twenty 
> > > people died during the bombing of Dresden, no one 
> > > died during the Influenza Pandemic, and only a couple 
> > > of thousand died during the Black Plague, while Stalin 
> > > killed more people than actually lived in the USSR at 
> > > the time, I would say that the only one here who looks 
> > > foolish is you, sir.
> > 
> >  Forgive me, 
> > Mr. Schultz, but the stinging irony in the above exchange 
> > is simply too much for me.
> 
> Indeed it is! It is quite evident that _anything_ requiring a 
> modicum of intelligence is too much for Anthony "beat 'em 
> with a pickaxe" Sabatini! 
> 
> Oh, the irony! ROTFLMAO!

LOL! You poor, deluded fool! You've been made the butt of a joke of your own
making! See my other reply to you in this thread. You've crowned yourself
Clown Prince of Fools!

LOL!

Gnash them teeth, baby! *Grind* 'em! Hee, hee, hee!

[silly .sig and VanSlander (tm) laughed at]

-- 
Mark Van Alstine (allegedly one Stuart Pidley) is, as far as I can tell, a
virulent spewer of mistruths, a slanderous serpent and has a most peculiar
interest for building demolition procedures, something which most honest
citizens do not share. His ranting, mewling and temper tantrums, along with
his foul verbiage and assorted excrement, can be found regularly in
alt.revisionism, one of his favorite haunts.

For more information on this misbegotten jackal-spawn, please see:

http://search.dejanews.com/profile.xp?author=van%20alstine%20mark
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark



From anthonys@not.a.valid.address Wed Oct 29 19:44:56 EST 1997
Article: 145387 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Where is the hotshot...dick phillips?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19971029055201.AAA04952@ladder02.news.aol.com> <01bce42f$fdf9e5a0$7da2cdcd@odin>  <01bce47d$0c37a6f0$9337eccd@odin> 
Organization: Infobahn Inc.
Message-ID: <01bce4bb$8e23f630$16a2cdcd@odin>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
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Date: 29 Oct 97 22:43:48 GMT
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Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:145387

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...

[snip quote lil' Ganymede uses to prove how 'persecute' po' lil' him is]

Subject:      Re: ULTIMATE REVISIONISM
From:         slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura)
Date:         1997/09/27
Message-ID:   
Newsgroups:  
soc.culture.polish,alt.politics.usa.republican,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.euro
pe,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,soc.culture.french,soc.culture.swiss,s
oc.culture.ukrainian

< begin article >

Here is the text of the article on Moshe Peer, who claimed to have
survived "at least" six attempts to gas him to death in the alleged
Bergen-Belsen gas chamber.

                                =-=-=START=-=-=

Surviving the horror


Author recounts experiences in Nazi concentration camp

KAREN SEIDMAN
THE GAZETTE [Aug. 5, 1993]

ST. LAURENT - As an 11-year-old boy held captive at the Bergen-Belsen
concentration camp  during World War II, Moshe Peer was sent to the gas
chamber at least six times.

Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women and
children gassed with him collapsed and died.

To this day, Peer doesn't know how he was able to survive.

"Maybe children resist better, I don't know," he said in an interview last
week.


Spent 19 years on book


Now 60, Peer has spent the last 19 years writing a first-person account of
the horror he witnessed at Bergen-Belsen. On Sunday, he spoke to about 300
young adults at the Petah Tikva Sephardic Congregation in St. Laurent
about his book and his experiences as a Holocaust survivor. 

The gathering was part of the synagogue's Shabbaton 93, which brought
together young adults from across North America for a cultural and social
experience.

Called Inoubliable Bergen-Belsen (Unforgettable Bergen-Belsen), Peer wrote
the book to make the reader feel like a witness at the scene.

But he admits he can never recreate for anyone the living hell he experienced.

"The condition in the camp is indescribable," Peer said. "You can't bring
home the horror."

In 1942, at age 9, Peer and his younger brother and sister were arrested
by police in their homeland of France. His mother was sent to Auschwitz
and never returned. 

Peer and his siblings were sent to Bergen-Belsen two years later.

He recalls the separation from his parents as excruciating. But surviving
the horror of the camps quickly became a priority.

"There were pieces of corpses lying around and there were bodies lying
there, some alive and some dead," Peer recalled.

"Bergen-Belsen was worse than Auschwitz because there people were gassed
right away so they didn't suffer for a long time."

"But at Bergen-Belsen people stayed months and months until they died -
they suffered for a long period of time."

Peer said Russian prisoners were kept in an open-air camp "like stallions"
and were given no food or water. "Some people went mad with hunger and
turned to cannibalism," Peer said.

Peer's days began with a roll call of the numbered prisoners. This could
last as long as five hours, while their captors calculated how many
prisoners had died. Anyone who fell over during roll call was beaten on
the spot.

After roll call, the prisoners returned to their barracks, where they were
given a tiny piece of bread and some colored water.

Peer and his siblings - who all survived - were cared for at the camp by
two women, who Peer has unsuccessfully tried to find. 

Children being children, they did play, sometimes chasing each other
around the barracks. But there would always be some who were too sick or
weak to get up.


Reunited with father


After the war, Peer was reunited with his father in Paris and the family
moved to Israel. Peer's four children were born in Israel, but after
serving in the Israeli army in a number of wars, Peer moved to Montreal in
1974.

Even 49 years later, Peer is still haunted by his concentration-camp
experience
and still finds his memories keep him awake at night.

But what he is most bitter about is the way the rest of the world stood by
and let the Holocaust happen.

"No one told the Germans not to do it. They had the permission of the
world," he said.

                                =-=-=END=-=-=


Note that Karen Seidman's article began by bluntly stating that "Moshe
Peer was sent to  the [Bergen-Belsen] gas chamber at least six times." 
The inclusion of the phrase "at least" suggests that it may even have been
*more* than the "six times" alleged.

Peer claimed that each time he watched as "women and children gassed with
him collapsed and died." His own survival Peer speculates was possibily
due to the fact that he was an 11-year-old boy at the time. 

Peer: "Maybe children resist better, I don't know." 

Peer's speculation regarding the immunizing effects of childhood appears
in the text (see above) immediately after reporter Karen Seidman described
how Peer insisted he saw other "children gassed with him" who "collapsed
and died." It seems the paradox of this was lost on both the interviewer
and her subject.

What Seidman's article also says is that by 1993 Peer had spent 19 years
writing a book on his experience at Bergen-Belsen. Long enough, surely, to
learn the Bergen-Belsen concentration-camp, as is now generally and
officially agreed, *never had any functioning homicidal gas chamber*.

Dr. Martin Broszat of the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History,
which is funded by the German government, stated categorically in an
August 19, 1960 letter to the German weekly *Die Zeit*: "Neither in Dachau
nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners
gassed."

[End]

-- 
******************************************************************
What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
                                                                  *
The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
*******************************************************************

< end article >




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