The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/sabatini.anthony/1997/sabatini.9701


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan  4 16:05:55 PST 1997
Article: 91008 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5ags45$ht4@access5.digex.net>
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Michael P. Stein  wrote in article
<5ags45$ht4@access5.digex.net>...
> In article <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> DvdThomas  wrote:

[a lot snipped]

>     The problem I have with your reply is that Mr. Sabitini did not use
> the word "questioning."  He used the word "denial."  There is a
> difference.  Now, perhaps he did mean to say "questioning," but suffered
> one of the lapses of language skills seen around here with such alarming
> frequency.  However, the fact remains that Jamie responded to the
question
> he actually asked. 

Hmmm...at the risk of personal attack, I'd like to venture these comments:

I used the word "denial" because the term commonly used to refer to this
branch of revisionism is "Holocaust deniers"; whether they blatantly
dismiss the whole thing happened (i.e., deny) or question portions thereof
is irrelevant.

> 
>     I further note that Mr. Sabitini asked why such denial was
> "considered" antisemitic - in other words, as I read it he appears to be
> asking about the thoughts of those doing the vilifying, not the attitudes
> of the vilified.  If his pen was as finely-tipped as you say, then Jamie
> gave a completely legitimate answer.  For you to criticize Jamie for
> mishandling the question you suppose Mr. Sabitini was really asking - in
> which case he must have been the one writing with a paint roller -
strikes
> me as a bit odd.

I am unclear as to which camp you described as the "vilifying" and the
"vilified". My original question was directed at those who defend the
Holocaust as being what is currently considered "historically correct" (to
the general populace).

Disclaimer: Asking a question does not automatically place me in one camp
or another.

BTW, I don't see how my writing skills come into play on the topic, but I
digress...

> 
> -- 
> Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
> POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
> Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
> 


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan  4 20:03:37 PST 1997
Article: 91014 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com>
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Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com>...
> dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
> 
> >A legitimate question is not answered by the above.
> 
> It is a silly question put in this manner:

I beg your pardon, but I don't consider it a "silly question." If you are
not interested in it, fine, but put-downs are hardly constructive.

[snip]

> 
> He hits his mark much more solidly than my remarks to his question.
> The concern of deniers is the Jewish aspect of the Holocaust. There
> seems to be no concern about the other 6 million.

Yes, this is what I was asking about. It is not my intent to defend
"Nazism", but I always assumed "Holocaust denial" was really about "gross
exaggeration" of these events. If someone were to say 12 million died, and
a "denier" refuses and claims 500,000 were killed instead, I found it odd
that the latter should be branded anti-Semitic. But from your answer, I
think you are stating that "deniers" only question whether or not 6 million
Jews were slaughtered. If this is indeed the case, I would be interested in
hearing opposing views.

[the rest snipped]


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan  4 20:03:39 PST 1997
Article: 91016 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bbf808$a38accb0$257213cc@server> <32cac7d2.3537818@news.inetport.com> <32d9eaa4.10656713@199.0.216.204>
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tom moran  wrote in article
<32d9eaa4.10656713@199.0.216.204>...
> >"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >
> >Interesting that this nonsense comes from the Judith Toth zone.

What is the "Judith Toth zone"?

[snip]

> >>I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of Nazism or Zionism, but
rather
> >>would like to discuss the almost taboo-like onus placed on discussions
> >>concerning the events called the Holocaust.
> >>
> >
> >There is no tabu on the discussion.
> 
> Summary: Curtis says there are no laws in nations against open
> discussion on the Holocaust and Jews are not actively involved in
> trying to have it made tabu.
> 

Do such laws exist? Where?

> >Mike Curtis 
> >E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
> >Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
> 
> 


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sun Jan  5 20:26:16 PST 1997
Article: 91233 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: alt.revisionism FAQ?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <01bbfb64$6018ccc0$587213cc@server>
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Can someone please e-mail or point me to the alt.revisionism FAQ? Thanks.



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 08:36:34 PST 1997
Article: 91520 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com> <01bbfa97$da7c5e50$2b7213cc@server> <32d4ae64.2460694@199.0.216.204>
Message-ID: <01bbfc3c$48980420$737213cc@server>
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tom moran  wrote in article
<32d4ae64.2460694@199.0.216.204>...

[much snipped]

> literature. The Holocaust is 99.99 % a Jewish story. The Jews are the
> ones that have collected the $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$. 
> 

I'm not so sure. Personally, I believe the story has been grossly
exaggerated by the Allies (after winning the war) for political gain. In
fact, changing the focus of the international media to the defeated Nazis
to cover up their own atrocities certainly has the ring of truth to it.
After all, who would you believe: the evil Nazis who lost under God's eyes
or our triumphant heroes?

Did some unscrupulous Jews take advantage of the situation to further their
own agenda (or wallets)? Undoubtedly, but this is hardly cause to denouce
the entire Jewish people. However, ANYONE who has used the tragedy of the
Second World War for gain should be denounced as charlatans as soon as
possible. If these tales continued unabated, our great-great grandchildren
will probably believe it [today's generally-accepted views of the
Holocaust] as Holy writ.

Let the truth be told!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 12:56:54 PST 1997
Article: 106456 of soc.culture.jewish
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Judeo-Christian Concept
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
References: <5aooeg$96q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <32d0422d.152203301@news.airmail.net>
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Ethel Jean Saltz  wrote in article
<32d0422d.152203301@news.airmail.net>...
> After all is said and done, Jesus was asked if he was King of the Jews
> (now even in Jewish Prayer we call GOD our King), in court, and he
> didn't answer. I don't understand how any enlightened Christian can
> read the N.T. and not discuss this with their religious leaders and,
> even more so, at the congregational level.

My turn: I don't understand how any enlightened Jew can read the Old
Testament and not discuss the fairy tale of how Moses parted the Red Sea,
called down a rain of fire, summoned forth a plague of frogs (or locust),
etc. etc., to free the Jews from slavery in Egypt. (Mind you, as a
Christian, I also believe this.)

I will answer for you: it's faith. That's what religion is all about. Faith
is belief. If you don't believe, that's fine. No one is pointing a gun to
your head. If, on the other hand, you choose to believe this or that, then
great! Just don't insult or question other people's beliefs, unless you
want the same treatment.

Do you understand?

> 
> Just suppose he had answered "I AM". He would have been killed? But he
> was supposed to be killed, because it is interpreted that way using
> TaNaK. If he said he wasn't, well, how could he face his fellow Jews? 
> So by not answering we don't know, do we?

That's right, you DON'T know, any more than you know if your belief are
real. (BTW, when you die and, hopefully, find out, would you mind sending
us a postcard with the answer to the million-dollar question?)

> -- Or was this the only life-saving and face-saving option he had, a
> 50-50 chance to remain alive, heads or tails.

Did Moses really receive the Ten Commandment from God up there in that
lonely mountain? Or did he just make some up to save face when he returned
to the waiting Jews?

> Also, how would REAL Jews ever except a messiah that wasn't a family
> man? 
> 

So when/who/what/how was the last FAKE Jew you saw? What, BTW, is the
criteria for differentiating the two "types"?

[other stuff deleted]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 12:56:55 PST 1997
Article: 106459 of soc.culture.jewish
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Judeo-Christian Concept
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
References: <5aooeg$96q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
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guess who  wrote in article
<5aooeg$96q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>...

[typical "guess who" drivel snipped]

> >Sigh.....but from the Xian point of view, they are EXACTLY the same.
> >Look, I was a Xian; don't argue w/me on this point, ok?  I think I
> >have a little more knowledge about this.  It may differ from the
> >Jewish point of view, but frorm THEIR point of view, the meaning is
> >identical.
> >
> 
> ok they may think so but it doesnt make it so
> (glad you left them and came to worship hashem)
> 
> if jesus = god
> the god of the christians = the god of the jews
> then the jews beleive in jesus
> 

What is it with you, any way? I leave for a few days and you're back to
posting your hateful crap. Why can't you just practice your religion
WITHOUT insulting, demeaning and generally trying to undermine  someone
else's faith? What the fuck do you care what Christians think? Why must you
continuously stoop to posting "my way or no way!" kind of posts?

Did you have some kind of childhood tragedy that scarred you for life?
Where you dumped by a Christian girl or something?

And why the Hell do you hide behind a pseudonym? Are you afraid of
something? Do you think that "evil Christians" will find out your real name
and hunt you down like the rabid dog you are?

Ha, ha, ha! Did I say "rabid dog"? I must have meant "little shit"...

[more of "guess who"'s crap deleted]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 12:56:56 PST 1997
Article: 106460 of soc.culture.jewish
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: General Judaism questions
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
References: <5an0t5$dm2@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>
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guess who  wrote in article
<5an0t5$dm2@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>...
> In article <32C5CE7B.355A@snet.net>, gary.wachs@snet.net says...
> >
> >- What laws did the Hebrew people live by between the time of Abraham
> >accepting the covenent and the time of the Revelation?  It seems that
> > Hebrew nation went essentially law-less during this time period.
> 
> good question some say abrahma was aware of the laws given later. as a
> mimimun he obeyed the laws of noah.
> 
> >  Also,
> >at what point did the Hebrews officially become Jews - I though it was
> >when Abraham  accepted the covenant, but it's confusing because of
> this
> >lack of legal documentation to define the terms.
> 
> i have asked a few rabbias that question and have not received a
> satifactory answer. i use to think it was with abraham. i told that to
> a muslim i use to work with. he went ballastic.
> >
> >- Is it true that in Biblical times the term Messiah meant military
> >leader only?  To what extent did it connote a spiritual presense, a
> > prophet, a priest?  I understand that it never meant diety, and that
> >the claim of the Xian trinity is a key conflict with the Torah's
> >language
> > about the Messiah.  I read all about Moses Nachmanides and the Debate
> >in Barcelona, Spain, 1263.
> 
> in simple terms the chraistian view of the messiah and the jews view
> only share the same work messiah.
> 
> 

Now, if I were like you, "guess who", I would attack and ridicule your
beliefs in a most vehement manner. Be thankful I am not as rabid as you.



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 13:08:19 PST 1997
Article: 91608 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32CB4024.3DD4@nbnet.nb.ca>
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Keith Morrison  wrote in article
<32CB4024.3DD4@nbnet.nb.ca>...

[snip]

> There is a great deal of debate about aspects
> of the Holocaust: was it intentional or did events force it, what were
> the roles of ordinary people, what role did non-Germans play in it,
> exactly how many people were killed.  People who debate these points are
> not called antisemites, even those who indicated that the number of
> Hungarian Jews killed may have been overestimated.  But what seperates
> these people from overt deniers, and those afraid to come out of the
> closet, such as the spineless toadies in CODOH, is that these people
> do not deny that millions of people were killed as a matter of policy
> by the Nazi regime of Germany.
> 

I'm glad to hear that I won't be branded an anti-Semite for my opinions!
However, while I don't deny that Jews (along with many others) were indeed
killed during the course of the war, I think the numbers have been grossly
exaggerated by the victors.



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 13:08:20 PST 1997
Article: 91609 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bbf808$a38accb0$257213cc@server> <32cac7d2.3537818@news.inetport.com> <32d9eaa4.10656713@199.0.216.204> <01bbfa98$b933e6e0$2b7213cc@server> <32d5af6f.2727740@199.0.216.204>
Message-ID: <01bbfc3d$f2423350$737213cc@server>
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tom moran  wrote in article
<32d5af6f.2727740@199.0.216.204>...

[snip]

> >> Summary: Curtis says there are no laws in nations against open
> >> discussion on the Holocaust and Jews are not actively involved in
> >> trying to have it made tabu.
> >> 
> >
> >Do such laws exist? Where?
> 
> 	Germany for one. I think France also. And there is a Jewish push
> to have it made against the law in England. Maybe in Russia too. Here
> in the U.S. the House of Representatives voted 410 to 0 to condemn
> anyone who doubts all the current claims in the Holocaust story. It
> wasn't on their inititive. And in the end, it is politically and
> socially incorrect to speak of such things. Here in the U.S. you are a
> "neo-Nazi", "Racist" "anti-Semitic" pig for denying any part of the
> current Holocaust story. The same goes for Canada.
> 

This is indeed a sad state of affairs that honest, historical research
cannot be conducted without fear of being branded something or other. 



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 13:08:21 PST 1997
Article: 91610 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bbf808$a38accb0$257213cc@server> <19970102010800.UAA27790@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Message-ID: <01bbfc3a$37b656e0$737213cc@server>
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Aviatorp47  wrote in article
<19970102010800.UAA27790@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> O.K. so discuss
> The Holocaust Happened, Get Used to It !!!
> 

Thank you. Please see my reply to Doc Marten's post somewhere else on this
thread.

Regards,

Anthony



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 13:08:21 PST 1997
Article: 91611 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com> <01bbfa97$da7c5e50$2b7213cc@server> <32cf246f.14896264@news.gte.net>
Message-ID: <01bbfc39$f7f059c0$737213cc@server>
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Doc Marten  wrote in article
<32cf246f.14896264@news.gte.net>...

[snip]

> myself as a quick introduction not only to revisionism but what the
> holohuggers demand you believe ELSE you are considered an
> anti-semitic, nazi [obscenity.]  You will be truly amazed at what you
> are required to believe.  

This goes back to my original question. Can anyone deny that choosing not
to believe current thinking regarding the Holocaust causes one to be
branded "Nazi", et. al?

For example, suppose I choose to believe the events of the Holocaust were
grossly exaggerated (for political reasons on the part of the "winners"
[i.e., the Allies]). In this case, would I really be branded anti-Semitic?
If so, why?




From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 22:37:56 PST 1997
Article: 91702 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com> <01bbfa97$da7c5e50$2b7213cc@server> <32cf246f.14896264@news.gte.net> <01bbfc39$f7f059c0$737213cc@server> <32d3d30c.1387682@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bbfd06$c60c3320$5d7213cc@server>
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Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32d3d30c.1387682@news.inetport.com>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:

[snip]

> >This goes back to my original question. Can anyone deny that choosing
not
> >to believe current thinking regarding the Holocaust causes one to be
> >branded "Nazi", et. al?
> >
> >For example, suppose I choose to believe the events of the Holocaust
were
> >grossly exaggerated (for political reasons on the part of the "winners"
> >[i.e., the Allies]). In this case, would I really be branded
anti-Semitic?
> >If so, why?
> >
> >
> 
> Why don't you make your argument. Sticks and stones.
> 

Well, as I said in another post, I believe that much of World War II's
history has been altered to suit the needs of the winners, i.e. the Allies.
After all, it would be no great feat to push the losing side into
"confessing" anything the victors wanted them to say, similar to many
"confessions" wrung out of tortured souls accused of being witches during
the Inquisition.

Do I deny the fact that many innocent people were killed in concentration
camps? Of course not! It was, after all, a time of war, not a tea party!
However, I am quite certain that the actual number of murdered people was,
at best, greatly inflated by the Allies.

Why? Probably to divert attention from their own atrocities to their
hapless, vanquished foe. After all, the Allies were hardly innocent of
treating people (in their own country!) with much civility. What was done
with American and Canadian citizens of Japanese and, to a lesser extent,
Italian origin? They were rounded up and kept under tight guard, much like
the victims of Nazi concentration camps.

Of course, it is difficult to ascertain what really went on in both kinds
of camps after some fifty years of lies and propaganda. More historical
work had to be done before we can get to the bottom of this.

I mean, if the Nazis had won the war, the world would most certainly be
rife with horrific tales of disgusting acts committed in American and
Canadian concentration camps! ("German soap" and "Japanese nightshades"!)
This would certainly make ordinary citizens of the victors' countries feel
better about their own vileness during the war.

These are some of my ideas. Comments?

BTW, what does the "sticks and stones" comment mean?

> 
> 
> 
> Mike Curtis 
> E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
> Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
> 


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan  7 22:53:32 PST 1997
Article: 106549 of soc.culture.jewish
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Judeo-Christian Concept
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
References: <32D0BC16.7C9@america.com>
Message-ID: <01bbfcfc$26f7c1f0$5d7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0303.infobahnos.com
Date: 8 Jan 97 00:37:35 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 46
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0303.infobahnos.com

Gentil  wrote in article <32D0BC16.7C9@america.com>...

[snip]

> Second, about millions of people being slaughtered. I am assuming you
> are talking about the Roman Catholic Church. True, they have slaughtered
> millions of people including Jews, Muslums (example: the Crusades) and
> many Protestants as well. The catholic religon is based on the Christian
> religon but was distorted a few hundred years after Christ's death. It
> is a mixture of Baal worship and Christianity but is not recognized as
> an "example" of Christianity by Protestants. 

What heathenry! Baal-worshipping, indeed! Protestants are just another
group of Christians who were forced to follow King Louis (I forget the
exact King of England) when he chose to "protest" (get it?) against the
Pope who wouldn't give in to some demands. Apart from belief in the Pope,
Catholics and Protestants are pretty much the same. If you don't believe,
just check out any history book!

[more snipped]

> 
> >Chrisitans do not study the whole Bible, and deliberately keep
> >their flock ignorant of its contents.
> 
> Wrong again. I have no idea what you mean by "keeping their flock
> ignorant". Maybe so if you are referring to the Catholic Church but not
> the Protestant church.

The Catholic Church does not attempt to keep "their flock ignorant."
Ignorance is just a form of mental laziness that can afflict Catholic,
Protestant, and Jew alike. (It seems to have afflicted "guess who" quite a
bit! )

[yet more snipped]

> Show me where it says anything about Popes and Saints. Sure it mentions
> Popes, Saints, Nuns, Monks in the corrupted version of the Bible that
> the Catholics use, but not my version. 

Catholics do not use a "corrupted" version of the Bible. Protestants, who
come from Catholic origins (see above), took the Catholic Bible and perhaps
modified it (although I think both versions are the same).

[and the rest snipped]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan  8 16:18:19 PST 1997
Article: 91793 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Nizkor: Who the Hell are these guys?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <01bbfd6b$23ea5b70$357213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0203.infobahnos.com
Date: 8 Jan 97 13:52:00 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 15
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0203.infobahnos.com

What do the people at Nizkor do with the "files" they seem to be keeping on
people?

I've recently asked that my name and messages be removed from their
database, but was denied.

Do they have a legal write to keep such information? Ken McVay assures me
he does.

Who the Hell do these people think they are? The Thought Police? The
Keepers of the Morality of America (tm)?

Can someone tell me more about this organization? Their goals?
Associations? Etc. Thanks.



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan  8 22:15:46 PST 1997
Article: 91878 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: 'Grabner Ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening'
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <5acfbq$90m@juliana.sprynet.com> 
Message-ID: <01bbfdd2$00f84250$4f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0229.infobahnos.com
Date: 9 Jan 97 02:08:21 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 31
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0229.infobahnos.com

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...

[snip]

> 
> For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
> Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
> please visit:
> 
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
>
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
>
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
>
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
> 
> 
> Mark

There is no proof at the mentioned sites. They are just a bunch of USENET
postings archived by name, without the context of previous postings and
later responses.

I'm just glad the people at Nizkor are not the librarians responsible for
maintaining our public libraries. (I just shudder at the thought of books
being stored in alphabetical order of the author's name regardless of
content; and this is exactly how Nizkor "archives" USENET postings.)

[.sig snipped]


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Thu Jan  9 08:38:26 PST 1997
Article: 91897 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Is McVay Jewish, a golem, or a shabbas-goy??
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,bc.general,ont.general,edm.general,van.general,mtl.general
References:   <32CF76A6.6C18@concentric.net>  <32D11EDC.3E63@vir.com>  <32D3C63C.5FA0@vir.com>
Message-ID: <01bbfdd0$8827df80$4f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0229.infobahnos.com
Date: 9 Jan 97 01:57:55 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 49
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0229.infobahnos.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91897 can.general:101358 bc.general:60177 ont.general:64871 van.general:14632

Matt Friedman  wrote in article
<32D3C63C.5FA0@vir.com>...

[snip]

> Of course, Nizkor is not a government agency, so your paranoia is
> unfounded [which makes it paranoia, doesn't it?]. We have a saying in
> the journalism profession -- Jessika will back me up on this -- that
> "only people with something to hide refuse to be quoted." It seems to me
> that, if people chose to be politically active, whether formally or
> informally, and participate in the PUBLIC political discourse, then they
> should EXPECT that their words and comments are being recorded.
> 
> In fact, almost EVERYTHING on Usenet is archived somewhere, and, using
> inexpensive search technologies, the information is easily acessible,
> and a minimal cost.
> 
> > To be sure, Nizkor has, as MF quaintly calls it, "the freedom to
archive"
> > (it has, thanks to its sponsors, been afforded the technological means
to
> > do so).
> 
> The means are not that costly, as you know, and besides, EVERYTHING on
> Usenet is archived ANYWAY,
> 

The problem is with the way Nizkor archives it's information. Take a look
at their "Shofar FTP Site" and try to re-construct a full, comprehensible
thread. You cannot. As such, data can easily be taken out of context and
made to look like something else.

Further, as a "non-government" organization, I don't see the need for them
to keep a record of my name in the fashion they do. If they want to archive
USENET postings, why not categorize it by thread? While it seems that they
can legally archive USENET postings (until laws regarding the Internet are
made and passed in Parliament), I don't think they have the right to
plaster my name as a category. I gave no written permission for the use of
my name in said manner.

As I said in another posting, Nizkor's cohorts are only better organized
than their "evil Nazi" detractors. Otherwise, the exhibit the same
fanatical behavior as the latter group. (Just check out a random sample of
posts from the lunatics and see! Notice how they are almost always the
first to "greet" new visitors here, as if testing their mettle... This is
very suspicious behavior at best.)

[the rest snipped]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Thu Jan  9 11:25:29 PST 1997
Article: 106727 of soc.culture.jewish
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Judeo-Christian Concept
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
References: <32D0BC16.7C9@america.com> <01bbfcfc$26f7c1f0$5d7213cc@server> <5ausrd$5r@ncar.ucar.edu>
Message-ID: <01bbfddd$c4051dd0$4f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0229.infobahnos.com
Date: 9 Jan 97 03:32:33 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 21
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.aloha.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.fast.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0229.infobahnos.com

Colin Rosenthal  wrote in article
<5ausrd$5r@ncar.ucar.edu>...
> On 8 Jan 97 00:37:35 GMT, Anthony Sabatini 
wrote:
> 
> >What heathenry! Baal-worshipping, indeed! Protestants are just another
> >group of Christians who were forced to follow King Louis (I forget the
> >exact King of England) when he chose to "protest" (get it?) against the
> >Pope who wouldn't give in to some demands.
> 
> From this version of the history of the Reformation I guess you know
> about as much about christianity as you do about Judaism. Do the 
> names "Luther" and "Calvin" mean anything to you???
> 
> Colin Rosenthal
> 

Colin, the entire history of the Schism is not necessary to make my point.
In a general sense, what I said is accurate. The sole purpose of it was
merely to point out that Protestants are indeed very much like Catholics.



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Thu Jan  9 19:54:09 PST 1997
Article: 92024 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com> <01bbfa97$da7c5e50$2b7213cc@server> <32cf246f.14896264@news.gte.net> <01bbfc39$f7f059c0$737213cc@server> <32d 
Message-ID: <01bbfe9f$3f81b1a0$7f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0337.infobahnos.com
Date: 10 Jan 97 02:37:47 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 140
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0337.infobahnos.com

Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
...

[snip]

> >In much the same manner as the Inquisition managed to produce black
cats,
> >roosters, et. al as physical evidence of the victim's association with
the
> >Devil.
> 
> Ah.  So you think that a cat or a rooster is the equivalent of -- again, 
> literally -- tons of documents, all of which can be subjected to
scrutiny.

And, of course, you will assure everyone that all of the "literally tons of
documents" are truthful, valid and exactly pointing out the Nazi's
villainy.

> 
> Let me explain a subtle difference.  A cat is a cat.  It is born to a 
> pregnant mother-cat, and requires very little human intervention to 
> produce.  One can examine it, and determine that it is a cat, and not a
dog, 
> quite readily.   

Of course, you always have to be an ass whenever you say something, but I
digress... However, I don't see how the difference between a cat and a
document disprove a thing. (BTW, the words I choose were, "In much the same
manner," not "exactly like."

> 
> A document is not a cat.  It will not be spawned by a fertile
mother-document, 
> but has to be created by one or more humans.  It is subject to testing of
all 
> sorts to determine whether or not it is what it purports to be.  
Producing a 
> good forgery of a document, one that will stand up to expert scrutiny, is

> certainly possible, but it is a time-consuming task.  

As I said, since most of your precious documents were uncovered over time,
I guess time was available. (Even during the latter stages of the war.)

[snip]

> 
> >I don't think you need an "army of forgers", especially since most of
the
> >"evidence" has mysteriously been uncovered bits at a time over the
years.
> 
> Well, that of course turns out not to be the case.

My turn to use one of your own mega-cool lines: Where is your proof of
this?

[snip]

> 
> Yup.  I went for my gun -- check out my home page.  

I'm very certain someone like you went for his gun...

> 
> But you're suggesting that literally hundreds of thousands of people kept

> their mouths shut.  Had all of them families?  All of them?  Wow.  Were 
> all of them intimidated?  Didn't any of them know how to write an
anonymous 
> letter?  

And who, pray tell, would publish an anonymous letter refuting what
everyone has been told? Especially since the denial of the story is looking
down upon, and, as we can see here, the bearer of such news would be
hounded and branded this and that?

> 
> And over fifty years, none of them talked.  
> 
> Amazing theory.

You're continued use of sarcasm really does wonders for your ability to win
friends, doesn't it, Mr. Rosenberg? (And you can't believe the miracles it
works for *your* credibility!)

> 
> >Besides, most of the people actually involved in the war are dead,
> >and dead men tell no tales.
> 
> And none of them spoke up while they were alive?  Not over the last fifty

> years?  None of them left documents describing the lengthy 
> torture&indoctrination sessions they participated in, either as victims
or as 
> torturers? None of the architects and adminstrators or executors of this 
> mammoth forgery, torture, and intimidation conspiracy which (apparently, 
> according to your theory) must have gone on for fifty years have, to this
day, 
> talked?

Documents, in this case, don't hold much evidence as can be seen by the
constant quoting of such in this newsgroup, since both camps still haven't
managed to convince the other.

> 
> Wow.  And I thought the Mafia was closed-mouthed.

Mr. Rosenberg, I can assure you that you know little of "the Mafia".

> 
> 
> >> 
> >> And, theories aside, do you have any evidence at all that supports
your
> >rather 
> >> bizarre theory?  Go ahead, whip it right out; let's take a look at it.
> >> 
> 
> >No, I do not have any physical evidence. 
> 
> Ah.

And I suppose that the "documents" *you* (and others) flout as proof of
your views are to be believed, simply because *you* state as much. Uh,
sure...Not!

> 
> >I am not an historian. 
> 
> Apparently. 

Well, sir, are you? Aren't you a science-fiction writer? If so, please
return to your ray-guns and adventures of space-age heroes. Who knows?
Maybe one day, fifty years from now, people will be discussing the veracity
of *your* written "documents"...

> 
> 


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Thu Jan  9 19:54:12 PST 1997
Article: 92027 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: The clueless Joel Rosenberg blathers...again!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,bc.general,ont.general,edm.general,van.general,mtl.general
References:   <32CF76A6.6C18@concentric.net>  <32D11EDC.3E63@vir.com> 
Message-ID: <01bbfea1$ed1337b0$7f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0337.infobahnos.com
Date: 10 Jan 97 02:56:55 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 307
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0337.infobahnos.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92027 can.general:101423 bc.general:60204 ont.general:64944 van.general:14640

[Joel's usual meaningless drivel deleted]

Joel, I have indeed checked out DejaNews...for you! This is a random
sampling of posts Joel has, ahem, "contributed" over the years. (A link
have been included with each post, as well as headers.)

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5446360&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=43

Subject:      Re: Prayers to Wailing Wall over Internet
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/26
Message-Id:   
References:   <32C2F580.C9@phoenix.net>

<32C30FBC.4B76@phoenix.net>
Organization: Ellegon, Inc.
Newsgroups:  
alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-Power

In article <32C30FBC.4B76@phoenix.net> Doc Tavish 
writes:

>I did as you do I snipped some of it out- Iwas under the understanding
>that a fee was to be remitted for services rendered. 

That's because you're an idiot. 

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=4155969&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=58

Subject:      Re: hey jews
From:         jshear@emily.oit.umass.edu (Joshua N Shear)
Date:         1996/12/18
Message-Id:   <32b84737.0@robby.oit.umass.edu>
References:   <5982dt$aui@dfw-Ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>

Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Newsgroups:   alt.politics.white-Power

Joel Rosenberg (joelr@winternet.com) wrote:
: ... don't make it bad
: 
: take a sad trashie,
: 
: and make him sadder...
: 
: (sung to the tune of "Hey, Jude", of course.

Doesn't fit right, Joel.  Try "sad trash."

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=2247069&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=59

Subject:      Re: Value of photographic evidence
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/07
Message-Id:   
References:   <32a98322.129732@199.0.216.204>
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

[irrelevant blather deleted]

You sure do get a lot of traffic tickets, don't you?

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5284603&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=46

Subject:      Re: Dealing with Naziboy Womack, 3-dan Psychopath
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/25
Message-Id:   
References:   
<58ik4s$i8k@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <58r0jg$lo1@nntp1.best.com>
<58r753$c6t@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <58ua0t$gmt@nntp1.best.com>
<32B9B315.14AD@hpcc836.corp.hp.com> <59ph6n$gtl@nntp1.best.com>  womack@nntp.best.com (Hal Womack)
writes:
, I so far have an
>obviously and confessedly low level of computer skills 

It goes with your social skills.  And employment skills.

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5432213&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=42

Subject:      Re: Jews Feel Problems Of Diversity?
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/26
Message-Id:   
References:   <59t6oh$evb@dfw-Ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Ellegon, Inc.
Newsgroups:   alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism

In article <59t6oh$evb@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> Jeff
 writes:

>Now Can I Get Into Nizkor's Database?

Practice, trashie, practice...

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5410099&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=40

Subject:      Re: I knew I'd seen that face before....
From:         Timothy Haller 
Date:         1996/12/26
Message-Id:   
References:   
To:           Joel Rosenberg 
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mime-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
Nntp-Posting-User: afn53940

On Thu, 26 Dec 1996, Joel Rosenberg wrote:

> There was something about Matt Giwer's picture on his home page that
looked 
> familiar, but I couldn't place it.  (It's an awfully pitiful face, and
while 
> one can despise Giwer -- I certainly do -- if you don't look into that 
> horrible, time-ravaged face and feel some pity, they you need to look
into 
> your own soul.)
> 
> But I was watching the third Star Wars movie, and I saw it, again:  he's 
> a dead ringer for Jabba the Hutt.  
> 
> Check it out.  
> 
>Is he as fat as jabba the hutt? 

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=4213561&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=37

Subject:      Re: hey jews
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/18
Message-Id:   
References:   <5982dt$aui@dfw-Ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Ellegon, Inc.
Newsgroups:   alt.politics.white-Power

... don't make it bad

take a sad trashie,

and make him sadder...

(sung to the tune of "Hey, Jude", of course.

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=7803908&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=29

Subject:      Re: Oh, No!  Robert Reich Does It Again!
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1997/01/07
Message-Id:   
References:   <199701071332.FAA15546@mailmasher.com>
<199701071332b.FAA15546@mailmasher.com>
Organization: Ellegon, Inc.
Newsgroups:  
alt.politics.economics,alt.renewing.american.civilization,alt.sci.sociology,
sci.econ,soc.college,uk.politics.economics,alt.psychology,alt.politics.natio
nalism.white,alt.politics.white-Power,talk.politics.misc,news.admin.net-Abus
e.usenet

In article <199701071332b.FAA15546@mailmasher.com> Mr Subliminal Meets
Anonymous  writes:

>Robert Reich was on TV again chanting the old fallacy that
>more education is the answer to the woes of displaced
>American workers.

I take it unschooled ignorance is more your cuppa tea, eh?

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=4267429&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=35

Subject:      X-headers in Pegasus
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/19
Message-Id:   
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Newsgroups:   bit.listserv.pmail

Is there any reasonable way to add extra headers to Pegasus messages?

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5419532&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=41

Subject:      Re: "Elitist Snobbery"
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/26
Message-Id:   
References:   <199612241955.LAA23542@mailmasher.com>
 <32c0caa7.73865799@news.micron.net>
<32C1B567.514@phoenix.net> <32c2d362.35710916@news.gte.net>
Organization: Ellegon, Inc.
Newsgroups:  
alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-Power,alt.revisionism,tnn.
religion.catholic

In article <32c2d362.35710916@news.gte.net> Buckaroo@bonsai.organic (Matt 
"Jabba" Giwer) writes:

>        What is the difference between a trailer and an apartment?  

It's the difference, I supposed, between Matt Giwer being apartment trash
and 
trailer trash.

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5243050&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=45

Subject:      Re: STRANGE E-MAIL FROM DANNY KEREN
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/25
Message-Id:   
References:   <32c939ee.8607931@news.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Ellegon, Inc.
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

In article <32c939ee.8607931@news.demon.co.uk> redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk
(Fergus McClelland) writes:

>DO you not know Rule Brittania? Britain Never, Never, shall be slaves.
>Last invasion,  Anno Domini 1066. 

... but had to get your sorry British butts bailed out of deep shit by the
US 
twice within forty years.

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5144857&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=52

Subject:      Re: never believe me but it is the truth
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/24
Message-Id:   
References:   <32bf6cc6.68344166@news.gte.net>
Organization: Ellegon, Inc.
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

In article <32bf6cc6.68344166@news.gte.net> 10@11.12 (Doc Benway) writes:
>From: 10@11.12 (Doc Benway)
>Subject: never believe me but it is the truth
>Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 05:49:48 GMT

>        A good friend of mine is jewish. 

You're right; nobody will ever believe that you have a friend.

====================================================
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5146181&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=54

Subject:      Re: Silence about Posen
From:         joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Date:         1996/12/24
Message-Id:   
References:   
<19961224134800.IAA07798@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Organization: Ellegon, Inc.
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

In article <19961224134800.IAA07798@ladder01.news.aol.com>
dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>Subject: Re: Silence about Posen
>Date: 24 Dec 1996 13:49:10 GMT

>>Isn't it interesting that not a single revisionist has responded to the
>>quotes regarding Posen that I posted last week?

>Sara, never let this surprise you, the repititions will be hard on your
>nerves over the long haul. :-)

So will the grammar and spelling.  

====================================================

Now, Joel, from this information, what kind of person can you be described
at? Please go ahead and re-read them all, think before you answer, and tell
the world who Joel Rosenberg really is.

Ummm, Joel? We're all waiting...



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Thu Jan  9 22:58:59 PST 1997
Article: 92035 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bbf808$a38accb0$257213cc@server> <32cfe798.6213994@news.gte.net> <5arric$d7k@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <32d2a68b.2802218@news.gte.net> 
Message-ID: <01bbfea3$00983500$7f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0337.infobahnos.com
Date: 10 Jan 97 03:04:30 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 38
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0337.infobahnos.com

Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
...

[snip]

> 
> Passive voice.  Tsk, tsk.
> 
> Which deniers on this list haven't (yet) outed themselves as antisemites,

> Jabba?  
> 
> You certainly have.  
> 
> ----------------------------------
> 
> The Matt Giwer Primer
> 
> See Giwer.
> See Giwer jibber.  
> Jibber, Giwer, jibber.  
> Jibber and be a fibber.
> 
> See Giwer.  
> Giwer is a liar.  (okay, so it doesn't quite rhyme.)
> Why does Giwer lie?
> If you don't know, neither do I.
> 
> ... (to be continued)
> 
> 
> 

More evidence of the maturity, wit and intellectual power of Joel
Rosenberg. Ladies and gentlemen, please stand and give the Joel a round of
applause.

Bwahahahahaha!


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 07:21:31 PST 1997
Article: 92162 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Who the Hell are these guys?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bbfd6b$23ea5b70$357213cc@server> <32dbde03.5458522@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bbfea0$b2075cb0$7f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0337.infobahnos.com
Date: 10 Jan 97 02:48:03 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 35
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0337.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32dbde03.5458522@news.inetport.com>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:

[snip]

> What are they doing with the file they are keeping on me? Heck, I
> don't care if I'm archived.  I don't say anything here to worry
> over. Anyway, what has any of this to do with the holocaust? 

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it. Please respect mine.

> 
> Look at it this way: If someone should actually substantiate a
> revisionist claim that has to do with holocuast history it'll be
> stored. 

This is not the point. Please see other posts regarding why I don't want my
name there.

[snip]

> >Can someone tell me more about this organization? Their goals?
> >Associations? Etc. Thanks.
> >
> 
> WE WANT TO RULE THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!  There is a major problem. We don't
> ever agree with each other. We aren't associated in any way. There are
> no profits made. No one gets paid. So why worry, be happy.

Good luck in your quest. Many have tried, but (not to insult you or your
buddies) better men have failed. Sorry.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 12:22:55 PST 1997
Article: 92278 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <32dec934.9911688@news.inetport.com> <19970108203800.PAA13593@ladder01.news.aol.com> <01bbfdc4$89301e30$4f7213cc@server> <32ddc14c.9888135@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bbffd4$3f1b6450$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 15:29:27 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 46
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32ddc14c.9888135@news.inetport.com>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mgiwer  wrote in article
> ><19970108203800.PAA13593@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >> From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
> >> 
> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >> 
> >> >tom moran  wrote in article
> >> ><32d4ae64.2460694@199.0.216.204>...
> >> >
> >> >[much snipped]
> >> >
> >> >> literature. The Holocaust is 99.99 % a Jewish story. The Jews are
the
> >> >> ones that have collected the $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$. 
> >> >> 
> >> >
> >> >I'm not so sure. Personally, I believe the story has been grossly
> >> >exaggerated by the Allies (after winning the war) for political gain.
> >> 
> >> What gain?
> >> 
> >
> >To cover up their own atrocities by shifting the focus of the
international
> >media to their vanquished foes.
> >
> 
> What has this to do with the history of the Holocaust?

This has everything to do with the Holocaust! It seems you post this *exact
same reply* every time you can't thing of something to contribute. (A look
through DejaNews will clearly prove this is the case.) Why is that, Mike?

> 
> >[.sig snipped]
> Sig is back!

BTW, I remove .sigs to save space in my replies. Do you have a problem with
this?

[.sig removed...again! ]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 12:22:55 PST 1997
Article: 92279 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32CB4024.3DD4@nbnet.nb.ca> <01bbfc3d$5b841cd0$737213cc@server> <5att28$7hr@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <01bbfea3$6e2fa080$7f7213cc@server> 
Message-ID: <01bbffd4$cb413ae0$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 15:33:23 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 33
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
...
> In article <01bbfea3$6e2fa080$7f7213cc@server> "Anthony Sabatini"
 writes:

[snip]

> No, maps don't "prove" anything.  And I don't know where you got the
notion 
> that the educated classes ever thought the world was flat; that's clearly
not 
> the case.  

OK, to burrow a line from you and your fellow Nizkorites, "Prove it." Prove
your claim above.

[snip]

> Now, I take it your response when confronted with a challenge to your
flat 
> earth model would be something like, "No, I don't have any evidence, but 
> that's my opinion, and I'll ask that you respect it.  And besides, if I
can 
> persuade enough people that it is flat, you'll fall off, right?"

Huh?

> 
> That how you think it works, eh, "Anthony"?

Why is my name in quotes? What are you trying to say?

[.sig snipped]


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 12:22:56 PST 1997
Article: 92280 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: The clueless Joel Rosenberg blathers...again!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,bc.general,ont.general,edm.general,mtl.general
References:   <32CF76A6.6C18@concentric.net>  <32D11EDC.3E63@vir.com>  <01bbfea1$ed1337b0$7f7213cc@server> <32d5f7a3.7690210@news.van.hookup.net>
Message-ID: <01bbffd5$404a2ae0$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 15:36:39 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 13
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92280 can.general:101534 bc.general:60251 ont.general:65080

Xphile  wrote in article
<32d5f7a3.7690210@news.van.hookup.net>...

[snip]

> No we're not, as a matter of fact, most of us (not wanting to speak on
> behalf of everyone) in Van.general couldn't probably care less.. Keep
> your little flame wars out, please.

I apologize for the cross-posting. I hadn't realized my buddy Joel
continued our argument by spamming other groups. When I answered him, I
merely hit the reply button. Sorry. Next time I will be more careful.



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 12:22:57 PST 1997
Article: 92283 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com> <01bbfa97$da7c5e50$2b7213cc@server> <32cf246f.14896264@news.gte.net> <01bbfc39$f7f059c0$737213cc@server> <32d  <01bbfe9f$3f81b1a0$7f7213cc@server> <32e1cb59.12461494@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bbffd7$b8d774c0$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 15:54:27 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 73
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32e1cb59.12461494@news.inetport.com>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:

[snip]

> >Of course, you always have to be an ass whenever you say something, but
I
> >digress...
> 
> And this individual hates the name-calling!!!

I reply to people in much the same manner as they reply to me. Don't like
it? Too bad.

[snip]

> 
> This post suggests that the writer is not a very deep thinker. Is this
> the impression he wants to present?

"What does senseless mean to you? Spurious != senseless. The quote has
nothing to do with the holocaust. Senseless. Try reading with an ENGLISH
dictionary nest time." - Mike Curtis (See
http://xp8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=7210351&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852914484.7983&hitnum=73 for the entire post).

Well, Mr. Curtis. Once again, we seem to have a perfect case of the kettle
calling the pot black.

[snip]

> 
> What documents?

All the wonderful, truthful documents that you and your buddies keep
producing and twisting to suit your own particular needs. Haven't you been
paying attention?

[snip]

> >My turn to use one of your own mega-cool lines: Where is your proof of
> >this?
> >
> 
> The proof is in the documentation available and when it was presented.

Please provide URLs.

[snip]

> 
> This isn't the goal. Prejudice and hatred can't be overcome in a
> newsgroup. Historical presentations can be made, however, and they
> have been. It's the audience that matters.

Yet another opportunity to use one of their own often-used, mindless
repeated lines against them. What does *this* have to do with revisionism,
Mr. Curtis?

[snip]

> 
> I haven't seen you present a thing.

Sigh. My goal here is *not* to sway everyone's opinion to my way of
thinking; I merely wanted to discuss ideas. Of course, this seems to run
contrary to Nizkor's goals, who continuously prove with their arrogant
behavior that their motto can only be, "My Way Or No Way!" Pitiful, Mr.
Curtis, truly pitiful.

[snip]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 12:22:58 PST 1997
Article: 92286 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <01bbfd06$c60c3320$5d7213cc@server> <32d3aab4.1572806@news.zilker.net> <01bbfdc9$d0f1c520$4f7213cc@server> <5b5udp$ska@access5.digex.net>
Message-ID: <01bbffd8$2a458ac0$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 15:57:30 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 21
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

Michael P. Stein  wrote in article
<5b5udp$ska@access5.digex.net>...

[snip]

> "You can suggest anything you like. And you can state any opinion you
> like.  The only problem is this stupid thing called 'reality' that keeps
> getting in your way. " - A. Sabatini

"Do you have the slightest clue how utterly idiotic and intellectually
dishonest your arguments are here?  You don't?  How predictable!" - Mike
Stein (See
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1256157&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852930703.1021&hitnum=149 for the full post)

>     Intellectual consistency is a bitch, ain't it?

Isn't it, though?

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 13:15:45 PST 1997
Article: 92288 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: KGB Americas Monitoring Private Citizens? Yes!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
References: <199701082301.PAA23108@mailmasher.com> <5b3enj$f6o@news.usaor.net> <5b47b4$55@news.usaor.net> <5b49jj$iha@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32D65D7F.3355@phoenix.net>
Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 16:04:51 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 21
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92288 alt.politics.white-power:55439 alt.politics.nationalism.white:43095

Doc Tavish  wrote in article
<32D65D7F.3355@phoenix.net>...

[snip]

> Wow! I am really impressed at the depths you Communist agents go to in
> monitoring the lives of private citizens! You are the dangerous group-
> not the private citizens you snoop on with your long hooked Khazar
> noses! "Ahhhh Chachacha", as the ol' snozola Jimmy Durante would say.
> 
> Doc Tavish   Watches North American Communist Activity
> 
> Ken are your files on us going to be used eventually when we are rounded
> up and "interrogated"?

Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I have my way, the only
thing these Nizkorites will be interrogating is the prison guard as to what
time lunch is served.

[snip]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 13:15:46 PST 1997
Article: 92291 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Who the Hell are these guys?
Newsgroups: control,soc.culture.europe,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.history
References: <199701082300.PAA22781@mailmasher.com>  
Message-ID: <01bbffd9$ef30cec0$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 16:10:10 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 22
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca control:214249 soc.culture.europe:53299 alt.revisionism:92291 alt.politics.white-power:55440 alt.politics.nationalism.white:43097 soc.history:11638

Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
...
> In article  varange@crl.com (Troy Varange) writes:
> 
> 
> >If Nizkor is our worst enemy than we're better
> >off than we thought.
> 
> That certainly would be true.  However, I think you can find your own
worst 
> enemy by the simple expedient of looking in a mirror.
> 

"That's because you're an idiot." - Joel Rosenberg (For the entire post,
such as it is, please see
http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=5446360&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CON
TEXT=852841075.1237&hitnum=43)

Well, Joel, I guess you must have thought you were quite funny when you
crossposted the message titled "The very confused 'Anthony Sabatini'
speaks" to newsgroups across Canada. But see, I can be funny, too!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 14:27:57 PST 1997
Article: 92311 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: I'll ask again: Why is Holocaust denial a "bad thing"? (Was: Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <32dc833c.16541927@199.0.216.204> <32D1A6BC.7716@ibm.net> <5astgr$j1b@Networking.Stanford.EDU> 
Message-ID: <01bbffe6$33deeff0$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 17:38:02 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 16
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...

[snip]

> The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
> blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'll ask again: Why is "Holocaust denial" in and of itself a bad thing?
Never mind the "anti-Semitism", which is clearly hate. This I can
understand. But what about simple denial? Here you are clearly implying it
is somehow morally and/or ethically wrong. Why?

[the rest snipped]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 17:41:28 PST 1997
Article: 92330 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <01bbfc39$f7f059c0$737213cc@server> <32d3d30c.1387682@news.inetport.com> <01bbfd06$c60c3320$5d7213cc@server>  <01bbfdca$5e4482f0$4f7213cc@server> <32d5fd67.1766066@news.zilker.net>
Message-ID: <01bbfff4$f5f7a010$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 19:23:40 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 24
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32d5fd67.1766066@news.zilker.net>...

[a long, tiring argument deleted]

*Sigh.* Mr. Curtis, why do you continuously seek to twist and pervert the
meaning of my words? Are you a wannabe lawyer out to get his kicks? If you
read my other [current] posts, you will see that I have been trying to use
your own techniques against you in an effort to show you what you do.
Instead, you Nizkorites have just continued to twist words and suppress the
spirit of other people's messages.

You continuously demand proof for others' beliefs. Fine. However, let it be
noted that the only proof you show is written by people who hold opinions
similar to your own. Where I to do the same thing, I can demonstrated as
proof that Jesus Christ walked the earth. His exploits are well documented
in the New Testament of the Christian Bible. The latter was written by
people who share similar beliefs as mine. So, using your own techniques, I
can "prove" that Jesus was here and that members of the Jewish or Buddhist
faith, for example, are "in the wrong".

Are you starting to understand my point, or will I have to continue
explaining it?



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 17:41:29 PST 1997
Article: 92334 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Zionist Hatespeech
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.,conspiracy
References: <852635993.1339@dejanews.com> <01bbfe9a$69ccf8c0$7f7213cc@server>
Message-ID: <01bbfff7$2353cc80$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 19:39:14 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 79
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

The heathen bastard is at it once again! No sooner did I post my message
here that the little coward decided to send me his idiotic message again. I
just wish the little fool wasn't so frightened of using his real name and
e-mail address.

Stop cowering behind your keyboard, filthy degenerate! Act like a man!

Anthony Sabatini  wrote in article
<01bbfe9a$69ccf8c0$7f7213cc@server>...
> It's funny, but I also received the exact same message, and I don't
> understand why...
> 
> 
> Of course, the mad dog used a remailer to hide his name...
> 

[snip]

> 
> nemesis@reflect1.demon.co.uk wrote in article
> <852635993.1339@dejanews.com>...
> > Only a few weeks on the newsgroups and already I am ruffling some 
> > feathers. I must be doing something right. The following is a post I 
> > recently received from one of my fans.
> > 
> > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:00:38 -0800 (PST)
> > To: nemesis@reflect1.demon.co.uk
> > From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
> > Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to <
> > complaints@remail.obscura.com>
> > 
> > It's all true. We own your asses, we make you pay taxes (did you know
> that 
> > 27.3% of the US government budget goes to Israel? It's true!) and your 
> > daughters and sisters and wives and mothers beg to kneel down in front
of
> 
> > us, unzip our flies, and suck our cocks. Hell, it's the only way they
can
> 
> > make it in Hollywood, you know. Anytime you see an attractive White 
> > Christian girl on tv, you know that she's tasted at least a dozen of
our 
> > cocks, and that's only for a walk-on! (And if you haven't had your cock

> > sucked by a hot blonde Christian woman kneeling naked in front of you,
> you 
> > haven't lived! They're like vacuum cleaners. Particularly the British 
> > girls. Yum!) 
> > 
> > Baywatch: it's the Jewish version of the Home Shopping Network.
> > 
> > We are everywhere. Did you know that Bill Clinton converted to Judaism
in
> 
> > a secret White House ceremony last year? How do you think he won the 
> > election? Did you know that BOTH VP candidates this year are converts?
> Did 
> > you know that both of their wives were born Jewish? Did you know that
10%
> 
> > of all income from crack is siphoned off to pay for luxuries for our 
> > synagogues? Don't you know why all Jewish children do well in school?
We 
> > use YOUR tax money to pay for tutors, so they'll do well no matter what

> > school they're in, while your children barely learn to read.
> > 
> > Get used to it. And tell your sister I said Hi.
> > 
> > Hyman Seymour Rubinrott
> > 
> > (You can call me "Hymie". I don't mind.)
> > 
> > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News
====-----------------------
> >       http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
> > 
> 


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sat Jan 11 17:54:56 PST 1997
Article: 92341 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <01bbfc39$f7f059c0$737213cc@server> <32d3d30c.1387682@news.inetport.com> <01bbfd06$c60c3320$5d7213cc@server>  <01bbfdca$5e4482f0$4f7213cc@server> 
Message-ID: <01bbfffa$9f86d060$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 20:04:10 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 43
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
...

[snip]

> And you're certainly entitled to nurse your pet theory, sans any
evidence, 
> just as you'd be entitled to have a pet theory that, say, the Moon is
made of 
> green cheese.  
> 
> But if you accused, say, NASA of having faked the moon landings -- they
didn't 
> find the cheese, after all -- people might wonder what your motivations
are 
> for expounding (in such a limited way, shying away from any discussion of
the 
> evidence) such a bizarre theory.
> 
> I know I would.
> 
> And I know I do.  
> 
> Care to enlighten me?  

*Sigh.* Joel, I think you are being a tad paranoid here. I don't have any
secret motivations, as you seem to be suggesting. The purpose of a
newsgroup is to discuss ideas, not prove them. I seriously doubt that
anyone in the scientific community (who are in a better position to "prove"
things) will ever cite a UseNet posting as "evidence".

My original intent was merely to hear some viewpoints regarding my "pet
theory". I was (and still am) interested in hearing other people's ideas,
*not* assertions which you and your buddies seem to liberally spew across
UseNet. Take, for example, Sara aka Perrrfect's response to one of my
posts. She kindly gave her opinion *without* making assertions or trying to
belittle my ideas, as you and your cohorts have. She presented her
arguments intelligently without having to be pompous, sarcastic or just
plain arrogant. For that, I am grateful. You and others of your ilk, on the
other hand, have acted in the exact opposite manner.

"Mea culpa, mea culpa..."



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Sun Jan 12 19:44:12 PST 1997
Article: 92532 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server> <5ba1n0$hae@access5.digex.net>
Message-ID: <01bc00aa$659ba230$547213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0234.infobahnos.com
Date: 12 Jan 97 17:02:28 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 186
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!arlut.utexas.edu!news.eden.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.168.54.138!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0234.infobahnos.com

Michael P. Stein  wrote in article
<5ba1n0$hae@access5.digex.net>...
> In article <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server>,
> Anthony Sabatini  wrote:
> >Ourobouros wrote in article <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com>...

[snip]

> >I again challenge the Nizkorites to explain an easy method whereby
someone
> >browsing their archives can reconstruct a thread so that someone's
comments
> >have the benefit of their proper context with respect to previous
messages
> >and responses.
> 
>     http://www.dejanews.com

Let's try this again. Read the above quote. You will notice that I asked
how someone can recreate a thread browsing *their*, i.e., Nizkor's,
archives.

> 
> 
> >AFAIK, the purpose of this archive is the equivalent of having a sword
over
> >your head. It exists as an implied threat so they can use your own words
> >against you (twisted and deformed, of course!).
> 
>     Really?  Perhaps you can produce just one example of how the archives
> have ever been used in a way that distorts the true meaning of the
> original words.

Well, yes. A quick look through DejaNews shows Nizkorites taking people's
words and using them in replies to that person. This occurs many times, and
I challenge Nizkor to prove otherwise. You see, Nizkor quotes from one
thread to answer in another. As such, the original meaning of the quote, if
not always "distorted", is certainly out of context. These are old
public-speaking tricks used by politicians, professional liars and other
ne'er-do-wells.

>     It is true that your own words can be used against you.  The real
> question is whether they are used fairly.  

Indeed it is, Mr. Stein. As I noted above, you're tactics are very similar
to those used by sneaky politicians. Of course, it seems that you and your
buddies judge what is fair use of quotes and what is not. This is also an
old trick. By continuously prodding someone with retorts such as, "Prove
it", "Please produce...", "Really?", et. al, you are setting yourself up as
the one in 'control' of the argument--a sort of judge as it were. This
happens subtly. The effect is that you always have your opponent at a
disadvantage. Brain-washing relies heavily on this technique.

>If you deny saying something,
> the archive can be used to prove you did.  If you tell a lie, the archive
> can be used to prove you did.  Do you see something wrong with using the
> archive to prove something which is in fact true?  Of course, you may
also
> use it in your defense if someone claims you said something which you did
> not.

Once again, we see how you subtly set up the 'rules' of the argument. By
stating that I can also use archives, you are once again seeking to take
control of the argument, asserting that you are the judge and you determine
what is acceptable and what is not. It's all gobbledygook. Of course I can
use the archives! I don't need your permission nor do I need you to tell me
that!

> >With it, they give the
> >impression that Big Brother is watching, so you'd better be careful what
> >you say.
> 
>     I am careful what I say no matter who is or isn't watching.  I happen
> to think that I ought only to say those things I am not ashamed to say,
> and would not be afraid to defend.

Here you are trying to install a false sense of fairness or morality--in
effect, you are telling everyone what an honest and upright man you are,
full of honor and integrity. Let the audience judge that. Don't tell people
what to think of you.

> >I find this totally despicable and reprehensible, not to mention
> >dishonest. (But don't worry, I am trying to give them a taste of their
own
> >medicine, using their own quotes from DejaNews in an attempt to show
them
> >what they are doing. I urge others to follow suit.)
> 
>     But who is doing what you've been doing with DejaNews?  You _have_
> taken things out of context. 

Once again, we see you asserting things, again in an attempt to 'take
control' of the argument and further position yourself as judge. Let the
audience decide if I "have taken things out of context". Stop trying to
tell people what to think; let them formulate their own opinions.

> The archives are there in full context - the
> _potential_ for abuse is there, but then it's there in privately-saved
> posts as well.  However, what you are doing is showing people (including
> me) what we _could_ be doing if we were dishonest.  

Stop telling people what to think. You are insulting everyone who reads
this thread. Let the audience decide what I "am doing".

> Find me one example of
> where someone you did it to _actually_ did it - that is, quoted something
> of yours out of context in a way which distorted the meaning.

The post where I replied to you using one of your own quotes. You had
quoted me from a another thread, thereby taking my words "out of context".
Do you want me to include the entire exchange here?

>     You do know the difference between "are" and "could be," do you not?

Of course, a parting jab is always fun, isn't it?

> >Of course, the Nizkorites will feign ignorance
> 
>     My ignorance is not feigned.  I am genuinely unaware of anyone
> involved with Nizkor taking words out of context deliberately.  As I said
> once before, if you have such examples, let me know.  I will have very
> strong words with whoever is responsible.  

Oh, puh-leaze, Mr. Stein! Stop acting the part of Noble Knight of Truth and
Integrity (TM)! Who are you trying to fool, anyway?

> But as I also said before, you
> should really provide sufficient context in your posts, and DejaNews
> already provides a backup server to read threads from.

You do not make the rules here, Mr. Stein. Stop trying to play the role of
judge in this dispute. You don't make the rules, nor should you tell people
what to do. Must everyone else try to satisfy your requirements? Who the
Hell do you think you are, anyway?

> >or strongly protest
> >otherwise. It is to be expected considering their well-documented
tactics.
> 
>     Perhaps you could point to some of that documentation.

I will soon be posting an article detailing Nizkor's tactics. The proof
will always be available on DejaNews (as the Nizkorites are so fond of
pointing out). Stay tuned, folks!

>     Perhaps not.

Your sarcasm is unbecoming of the 'honest', Defender of Truth (TM) persona
you wish to project to the audience. A slip, Mr. Stein?

> >As an aside, I find it interesting to note that their "persons" database
> >does not include one Joel Rosenberg, a noted loud-mouth and
well-documented
> >spewer of obscenities and other nonsensical writings. I am quite certain
he
> >belongs to this organization, even if not "officially".
> 
>     Now, how would he belong to the organization "unofficially?"

By loose association. He seems to defend your group quite often, and is
often involved in disputes between Nizkor (not necessarily Holocaust
revisionism) and their detractors. Again, a quick look at DejaNews will
prove this to be the case.

> >(Now watch the Nizkorites ask me for proof!)
> 
>     I will merely point out that you are clearly attempting to make a
> guilt-by-association attack on Nizkor without even having proof of the
> association.

The proof is at DejaNews.

>     Is it OK for me to say that I am quite certain that you belong to the
> Mafia, even if not "officially?"  Even without any proof?

Go ahead, Mr. Stein. You seem to be quite good at making assertions.

> >In any case, can someone at Nizkor explain
> >this apparent oversight?
> 
>     Ken McVay will have to do that, since he set up the names.

Of course.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Mon Jan 13 07:13:50 PST 1997
Article: 92549 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Nizkor = Propaganda (Details inside!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <01bc00bc$7c036460$647213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0310.infobahnos.com
Date: 12 Jan 97 19:11:54 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 33
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!visi.com!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0310.infobahnos.com

Since Nizkor is an organization with "a completely open and visible agenda"
(as stated on their Web site: http://www.nizkor.org/objectives.html), we
are forced to define it, by it's very nature, as nothing short of
propaganda.

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines propaganda as:

2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping
or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause
or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an
effect

Clearly, this is the case with respect to Nizkor. As such, we should take
their so-called 'facts' and other 'evidence' with a grain of salt. The
'proof' that they continuously offer (to anyone willing to listen) is
designed to win one over to their way of thinking.

Nizkor has always been vehemently opposed to "the propaganda campaigns of
racist and antidemocratic individuals and organizations conducted through
computer networks" (source: the Nizkor Web site listed above). Notice how
they conveniently leave out their own propaganda as one to oppose.

Hypocrites.

It is important to note that they are indeed allowed to share their
opinion(s) with others--after all, that is what UseNet newsgroups are for.
However, we have to be wary whenever they make various assertions and
statements of 'fact' (which seems to be more the rule than the exception)
and whenever the Nizkorites belittle or otherwise attempt to smear
someone's name.



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Mon Jan 13 07:13:51 PST 1997
Article: 92598 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server>  <5bbpke$hvc@access4.digex.net>
Message-ID: <01bc00f3$0b9d91a0$217213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0123.infobahnos.com
Date: 13 Jan 97 01:42:29 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 69
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0123.infobahnos.com

Michael P. Stein  wrote in article
<5bbpke$hvc@access4.digex.net>...
> In article ,
> Mark Van Alstine  wrote:
> >In article <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> > wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> Ha! Forget it, Ourobouros. These guys at Nizkor believe that have a
moral,
> >> ethical and legal right to archive information in such a manner that
can
> >> easily lead messages to be misconstrued and twisted as to their
original
> >> intent....
> 
>     Mr. Sabatini, consider this: my own messages are archived on Nizkor
in
> exactly the same manner.  So are Ken McVay's, Jamie McCarthy's, and Danny
> Keren's.  

Yet their are many who are not, most of whom side with your opinions. How
strange...

> While it may not be the best thing around, at least everyone is
> treated consistently.  Does this help any to allay your suspicions that
> this method is used with a conscious intent to cause distortion?

Sorry, it does not.

[The dishonest Mark Van Alstine's unfounded accusations deleted]

> 
>     Yes, Mr. Sabatini has posted at least one distortion (via quoting out
> of context), 

It was not out of context. You used a quote from another thread to answer a
post. I found a cool quote from you and used it to reply to you.

> peculiar logic, 

This is my prerogative, and not yours to judge.

> and a fair number of expressions of some
> specific types of argument, 

What, exactly, does this mean?

> paranoid suspicion and unsubstantiated charges

Of which you and your merry band are entirely innocent of...not!

> which I recognize you quite commonly find among Holocaust deniers, Nazi
> apologists, and antisemites.  While this might cause you to conclude that
> he's one too under the walks-like-a-duck theory - and it is quite
possible
> you are correct - nevertheless I have yet to see any post of his which
> meets my personal definitions of overt Holocaust denial, Nazi apologia,
or
> antisemitism. 

At least Mr. Stein is honest in that he makes no false accusations. The
same cannot be said for Mr. Van Alstine, who, if he does not publicly
apologize for his unfounded accusations, will soon be branded a proven
liar.

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Mon Jan 13 07:34:39 PST 1997
Article: 55646 of alt.politics.white-power
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: KGB Americas Monitoring Private Citizens? Yes!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
References: <199701082301.PAA23108@mailmasher.com> <5b3enj$f6o@news.usaor.net> <5b47b4$55@news.usaor.net> <5b49jj$iha@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32D65D7F.3355@phoenix.net> <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>  
Message-ID: <01bc015a$f51b4220$3a7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0208.infobahnos.com
Date: 13 Jan 97 14:06:20 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 54
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0208.infobahnos.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92640 alt.politics.white-power:55646 alt.politics.nationalism.white:43330

Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
...
> In article  mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >In article <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> > wrote:
> 
> >[snip]
> 
> >> Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I have my way, the
only
> >> thing these Nizkorites will be interrogating is the prison guard as to
what
> >> time lunch is served.
> 
> >It seems the veneer of Mr. Sabatini's "appreciation" of democracy, the
> >Rights of Man, the Constitution, due process, et. al. is about as thin
as
> >his too thin skin. Why am I not suprised? 

This is utter nonsense on the part of Van Alstine. But I guess it's OK--no
one can accuse him of having a poor imagination.

> 
> >Of course, the Nazis intimidated, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered
those
> >who they felt stood in their way. It seems that Mr. Sabatini is simply
> >keeping with Nazi tradition. 

No, Mr. Van Alstine, it seems that only you and your fellows are out to
belittle, insult, smear and generally attack anyone you does not agree with
your holier-than-thou opinions. Get the facts, straight, Mark.

> >Mark
> 
> A favor to ask, Mark:  Rafael Sabatini is one of my favorite writers --
and in 
> fact the book I'm working on is an homage to his St. Martin's Summer --
could 
> you put quotes around "Anthony Sabatini"'s name?  

Well, Joel, here's something we finally agree on! Rafael Sabatini was
indeed a great writer, particularly his pirate adventures!


> (I doubt it's his real name anyway; I suspect we've seen him here before
under 
> a different pseudonym, playing much the same tired denier gambits..)

Feeling a tad paranoid, Mr. 'Rosenberg'? That is your real name, isn't it?

[.sig snipped]



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Mon Jan 13 11:14:33 PST 1997
Article: 92682 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Zionist Hatespeech
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.,conspiracy
References: <852635993.1339@dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <01bbfe9a$69ccf8c0$7f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0337.infobahnos.com
Date: 10 Jan 97 02:02:58 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 70
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bconnex.net!clicnet!news.clic.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0337.infobahnos.com

It's funny, but I also received the exact same message, and I don't
understand why...

Here are the headers:

Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by
rizzo.infobahnos.com (8.7.6/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id IAA21838 for
; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:02:17 -0500 (EST)
Received: (from mix@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id
EAA24329 for anthonys@infobahnos.com; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 04:32:22 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 04:32:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199701021232.EAA24329@sirius.infonex.com>
To: anthonys@infobahnos.com
From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to


Of course, the mad dog used a remailer to hide his name...


nemesis@reflect1.demon.co.uk wrote in article
<852635993.1339@dejanews.com>...
> Only a few weeks on the newsgroups and already I am ruffling some 
> feathers. I must be doing something right. The following is a post I 
> recently received from one of my fans.
> 
> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:00:38 -0800 (PST)
> To: nemesis@reflect1.demon.co.uk
> From: mixmaster@remail.obscura.com (Mixmaster)
> Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to <
> complaints@remail.obscura.com>
> 
> It's all true. We own your asses, we make you pay taxes (did you know
that 
> 27.3% of the US government budget goes to Israel? It's true!) and your 
> daughters and sisters and wives and mothers beg to kneel down in front of

> us, unzip our flies, and suck our cocks. Hell, it's the only way they can

> make it in Hollywood, you know. Anytime you see an attractive White 
> Christian girl on tv, you know that she's tasted at least a dozen of our 
> cocks, and that's only for a walk-on! (And if you haven't had your cock 
> sucked by a hot blonde Christian woman kneeling naked in front of you,
you 
> haven't lived! They're like vacuum cleaners. Particularly the British 
> girls. Yum!) 
> 
> Baywatch: it's the Jewish version of the Home Shopping Network.
> 
> We are everywhere. Did you know that Bill Clinton converted to Judaism in

> a secret White House ceremony last year? How do you think he won the 
> election? Did you know that BOTH VP candidates this year are converts?
Did 
> you know that both of their wives were born Jewish? Did you know that 10%

> of all income from crack is siphoned off to pay for luxuries for our 
> synagogues? Don't you know why all Jewish children do well in school? We 
> use YOUR tax money to pay for tutors, so they'll do well no matter what 
> school they're in, while your children barely learn to read.
> 
> Get used to it. And tell your sister I said Hi.
> 
> Hyman Seymour Rubinrott
> 
> (You can call me "Hymie". I don't mind.)
> 
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
>       http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
> 


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Mon Jan 13 19:19:46 PST 1997
Article: 92737 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32CB4024.3DD4@nbnet.nb.ca> <01bbfc3d$5b841cd0$737213cc@server> <5att28$7hr@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
Message-ID: <01bbfea3$6e2fa080$7f7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0337.infobahnos.com
Date: 10 Jan 97 03:07:36 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 16
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0337.infobahnos.com

william c anderson  wrote in article
<5att28$7hr@lendl.cc.emory.edu>...

[snip]

> That's fine.  Almost every historian who's researched the topic disagrees
> with you, but just as soon as you post the results of your own research,
> we'll all be happy to discuss the issue.
> 
> Bill
> 

The key word here is "almost". Remember, "almost" everyone once thought the
world was flat, and all contemporary documents (maps, writings, et. al)
proved this!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan 14 18:45:06 PST 1997
Article: 92912 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Who the Hell are these guys?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bbfd6b$23ea5b70$357213cc@server> <32dbde03.5458522@news.inetport.com> <01bbfea0$b2075cb0$7f7213cc@server> <32d8cbec.1228965@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bc015b$bb8aaa90$3a7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0208.infobahnos.com
Date: 13 Jan 97 14:11:52 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 44
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0208.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32d8cbec.1228965@news.inetport.com>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><32dbde03.5458522@news.inetport.com>...
> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> What are they doing with the file they are keeping on me? Heck, I
> >> don't care if I'm archived.  I don't say anything here to worry
> >> over. Anyway, what has any of this to do with the holocaust? 
> >
> >You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it. Please respect mine.
> 
> That I do not have to do if it is wrong headed and bad history. I
> don't have to respect that which I disagree with. That is what free
> speech is all about. You have a right to say what you wish, however
> you do not have the right to demand my respect. You first have to earn
> it. 

Perhaps you misunderstood...I was asking that you respect my right to give
my opinions, which is clearly the case. As for personal respect from you,
this is hardly necessary, as your opinion of me is largely irrelevant.

> >> Look at it this way: If someone should actually substantiate a
> >> revisionist claim that has to do with holocuast history it'll be
> >> stored. 
> >
> >This is not the point. Please see other posts regarding why I don't want
my
> >name there.
> >
> 
> I was talking about substance and not your name. When did I bring up
> _your_ name?

*Sigh* You accuse me of changing the subject, yet this is exactly what your
are doing. I told you many times: it is too easy to misconstrue the meaning
of posts as stored by your archiving system. This is a fact. You cannot
deny it. Deal with it.

[pithy comments snipped due to lack of relevance]


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan 14 21:53:53 PST 1997
Article: 92924 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: KGB Americas Monitoring Private Citizens? Yes!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
References: <199701082301.PAA23108@mailmasher.com> <5b3enj$f6o@news.usaor.net> <5b47b4$55@news.usaor.net> <5b49jj$iha@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32D65D7F.3355@phoenix.net> <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>  <01bc015c$7ccd2750$3a7213cc@server> <5bdoia$5hl@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
Message-ID: <01bc027e$d90883c0$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 00:55:47 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 33
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92924 alt.politics.white-power:55794 alt.politics.nationalism.white:43543

william c anderson  wrote in article
<5bdoia$5hl@lendl.cc.emory.edu>...
> Anthony Sabatini (anthonys@infobahnos.com) wrote:
> : Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
> 
> : > Hmm... sounds more than a bit totalitarian to me, "Anthony."
> : 
> : "Totalitarian"? My God, man! Where do you get this stuff from? (Can you
> : please let me know what it is you smoke? I'd certainly like to have
some!)
> 
> Uh...well, Anthony, you DID claim you wanted to put people who disagree
> with you in jail for archiving your public posts.  What would you call
> that?
> 
> Bill

Bill, I never made any such claim. I do not think the Nizkorites should be
put in jail for disagreeing with me, but rather for using their
well-documented slimy tactics on anyone who doesn't happen to agree with
them.

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Tue Jan 14 23:36:57 PST 1997
Article: 92933 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: The buffoon Joel Rosenberg blathers...yet again!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server> <5ba1n0$hae@access5.digex.net> <01bc00aa$659ba230$547213cc@server> 
Message-ID: <01bc01b0$1df15b80$597213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0239.infobahnos.com
Date: 14 Jan 97 00:15:56 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 62
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0239.infobahnos.com

Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
...
> In article <01bc00aa$659ba230$547213cc@server> "Anthony Sabatini"
 writes:
> 
> >[snip]
> 
> >> >I again challenge the Nizkorites to explain an easy method whereby
> >someone
> >> >browsing their archives can reconstruct a thread so that someone's
> >comments
> >> >have the benefit of their proper context with respect to previous
> >messages
> >> >and responses.
> >> 
> >>     http://www.dejanews.com
> 
> >Let's try this again. Read the above quote. You will notice that I asked
> >how someone can recreate a thread 
>
> By pointing their browser elsewhere, at an appropriate place.

So what you're saying, in effect, is that you have this cool library where
you can go and look anything up, but if you actually want to make sense of
the books therein, you have to go elsewhere. Wow! Isn't that a great
'service'...

> Gee, that was easy, wasn't it, "Anthony."

Joel, your wit is truly singular.

> >browsing *their*, i.e., Nizkor's,
> >archives.
> 
> Ah.  And if they can't do it via Nizkor's server, but instead must use a 
> faster, more powerful one, it disadvantages whom, in what way?  

Lazy browsers such as yourself.

> And for this, you want to put people in jail, eh, "Anthony"?

No, but I'm starting to believe you certainly belong behind bars; those of
a mental institute.

Joel, you are old and, I'm sorry to say, largely meaningless. Your ideas
and beliefs will soon die with you (thank God!). You'll also notice, Joel,
that people of my generation have less and less interest in your fanciful
tales and distortions of history. This is a fact. Deal with it.

[Joel's stupid and meaningless .sig deleted]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:37 PST 1997
Article: 92945 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com> <01bbfa97$da7c5e50$2b7213cc@server> <32cf246f.14896264@news.gte.net> <01bbfc39$f7f059c0$737213cc@server> <32d  <01bbfe9f$3f81b1a0$7f7213cc@server> <32e1cb59.12461494@news.inetport.com> <01bbffd7$b8d774c0$4c7213cc@server> <32dffb16.3531610@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bc01b3$a9929160$597213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0239.infobahnos.com
Date: 14 Jan 97 00:41:25 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 130
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0239.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32dffb16.3531610@news.inetport.com>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis  wrote in article
> ><32e1cb59.12461494@news.inetport.com>...
> >> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:

[snip]

> This is my impression, "Anthony", but I've seen folks here bending
> over backwards to restrain themselves where you are concerned. 

Really? Like when/where/who?

> I see
> no provocation on their part at all.

Obviously, you haven't been reading the posts. Go visit DejaNews or
AltaVista and then come back to us.

> I see you as an individual who
> doesn't like what they post. From what I have seen, very little, if
> anything has attacked you personally.

Then you must be blind or extremely stupid. Sorry, but your idiotic comment
above can be nothing else (unless you are trying to lie for the benefit of
lurkers).

> >[snip]
> >
> >> 
> >> This post suggests that the writer is not a very deep thinker. Is this
> >> the impression he wants to present?
> >
> >"What does senseless mean to you? Spurious != senseless. The quote has
> >nothing to do with the holocaust. Senseless. Try reading with an ENGLISH
> >dictionary nest time." - Mike Curtis (See
>
>http://xp8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=7210351&server=dnserver.db96q5s&CO
N
> >TEXT=852914484.7983&hitnum=73 for the entire post).
> >
> >Well, Mr. Curtis. Once again, we seem to have a perfect case of the
kettle
> >calling the pot black.
> >
> 
> Excuse me? Pay close attention. I said that the post suggests. 

Spare us, Mr. Curtis.

> Did you
> notice that? Hmmm? Then I asked a question. In no way did I attack
> *you* personally. Now what does that quote from me mean? It's out of
> context! Ye who complain so much about context ought to be ashamed. 
> Do try and read the words written on the screen and don't make
> something of them that is not there.

Yessuh, mastah!

BTW, Mr. Curtis, I see you've managed to ignore everything below and avoid
answering questions nor have you provided the requested URLs with your
"proof"...how typical.


> >[snip]
> >
> >> 
> >> What documents?
> >
> >All the wonderful, truthful documents that you and your buddies keep
> >producing and twisting to suit your own particular needs. Haven't you
been
> >paying attention?
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> >My turn to use one of your own mega-cool lines: Where is your proof
of
> >> >this?
> >> >
> >> 
> >> The proof is in the documentation available and when it was presented.
> >
> >Please provide URLs.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> 
> >> This isn't the goal. Prejudice and hatred can't be overcome in a
> >> newsgroup. Historical presentations can be made, however, and they
> >> have been. It's the audience that matters.
> >
> >Yet another opportunity to use one of their own often-used, mindless
> >repeated lines against them. What does *this* have to do with
revisionism,
> >Mr. Curtis?
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> 
> >> I haven't seen you present a thing.
> >
> >Sigh. My goal here is *not* to sway everyone's opinion to my way of
> >thinking; I merely wanted to discuss ideas. Of course, this seems to run
> >contrary to Nizkor's goals, who continuously prove with their arrogant
> >behavior that their motto can only be, "My Way Or No Way!" Pitiful, Mr.
> >Curtis, truly pitiful.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> 
> Mike Curtis 
> E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
> Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
> 


----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:38 PST 1997
Article: 92946 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Typical Nature of Holocaust Accounts
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <32d5e6a7.1267669@199.0.216.204> <19970109160000.LAA10748@ladder01.news.aol.com> 
Message-ID: <01bc01b3$ed2770d0$597213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0239.infobahnos.com
Date: 14 Jan 97 00:43:14 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 148
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0239.infobahnos.com

 

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!




Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> In article <19970109160000.LAA10748@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> ehrlich606@aol.com wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > Something that one should keep in mind about the Aktion Reinhardt camps
is
> > that they all were supposed to have begun operation in the Spring and
> > Summer of '42 and some operated at least until the Fall of '43.  In
> > addition, the entire territory of the Aktion Reinhard camps fell to the
> > Russians no later than the end of August of 1944, in the course of the
> > tremendous encirclements of Operation Bagration, which literally ran
out
> > of gas on the outskirts of Warsaw..
> > 
> 
> Duration of Aktion Reinhardt mass gassing operations:
> 
>    Belzec (March 1942 - December 1942). 
> 
>    Sobibor (May 1942 - September 1943).
> 
>    Treblinka (July 1942 - August 1943).
> 
> 
> Erasure of Aktion Reinhardt camps:
> 
>    Belzec (December 1942 - July 1943). 
>    
>    Sobibor (September 1943 - October 1943).
> 
>    Treblinka (October 1943 - November 1943).
> 
> cf. Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp. 68,75,81,370-375.
> 
> > That means in the first place that a camp like Treblinka could not have
> > been out of service for a year, much less years.
> 
> As we can see above, mass homicidal gassing operations ceased by August
of
> 1943, so Treblinka _was_ "out of service for a year." 
> 
> > It also means that if there is anything to the revisionist approach --
and
> > I think there is -- what one has to look at is what exactly the Soviets
> > found when they swooped over Byelorussia.  
> 
> "Revisionist approach" indeed! The Aktion Reinhardt camps were in the 
> _Generalgouvernement_. Does Mr. Kennady mean this when he says
> "Byelorussia?" Or does Mr. Kennady mean _Belorussia_ i.e. the
> Reichkomissariat Ukraine? 
> 
> > (One might also want to keep in mind the topographical features of the 
> > region in terms of lack of communications, poor transportation, bogs,
> marshes, 
> > forests, etc. not only in terms of pockets of survivors, partisans, and
> German 
> > soldiers, but also in terms of mass graves, and the hypothetical
> difficulty of 
> > locating same.)
> 
> And Mr. Kennady might wish to keep in mind that the Aktion Reinhardt
camps
> were _purposefully_ located near major railways to facillitate the mass
> annihilation of the Jews in the Generalgouvernement! Transportation was
> hardly a problem. 
> 
> As for the "difficulty" in "terms of mass graves" one might keep in mind,
> for example, that Belzec used anti-tank ditches. Huge pits were dug in
the
> Upper camp at Treblinka. Most important, however, is to remember that in
> _all_ the Aktion Reinhardt camps the the the bodies of the victimes were
> exhumed and incinerated. At Belzec the victims' remains were buried. At
> Sobibor they were "buried in a specially designated place, and later a
> forst was planted there...." In Treblinka, they were buried in the pits
> the victims were exhumed from. These pits at Treblinka, btw, have been
> found. (cf. Ibid. 170-178.) 
> 
> > It is also noteworthy as a historical fact that Aktion Reinhardt camps
> > tend to correspond with the 1939 border between Russia and Germany, and
at
> > various railheads thereof.  Since it is known that Russia has always
used
> > a wider gauge rail, any further transporation (it might well have
involved
> > shootings in Minsk, etc.) would have required wholesale transfers. 
Worth
> > exploring.
> 
> Nearly 14,000 Jews were deported from the Reichkommissariat Ostland to
> Sobibor from September 18-24, 1943. (cf. Ibid. p.398.) 
> 
> > Further on this point full scale forensic excavations of these sights
> > could be undertaken should anyone really want precise numbers. I think
it
> > is interesting that no such full-scale excavations have ever been
> > attempted, especially since the UN has conducted such full scale
> > excavations at the site of alleged Serbian mass shootings quite
recently
> > (the result is that they have found that the death tolls have been
> > exaggerated on average by factors of 8 or 10 to 1.  What a surprise.)
> 
> Indeed. The mass graves at Treblinka _were_ examined. Human incinerated
> remains and bone etc.were found. There is no reason to doubt the
> testimonial and documentary evidence that indicates, for example, that
> over 700,000 people, almost all Jews, were murdered at Treblinka by the
> Nazis.  What a "suprise" indeed.
> 
> For those interested in proof of Mr. Kennady's (a.k.a. ehrlich606)
> Holocaust denial, Nazi apologia, and intellectual dishonesty please
visit:
> 
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/nyms/ehrlich606
> 
> Mark
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil
passes 
> not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but
> right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
> 
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> 


From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:39 PST 1997
Article: 92951 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Nizkor: Who the Hell are these guys?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bbfd6b$23ea5b70$357213cc@server> <32dbde03.5458522@news.inetport.com> <01bbfea0$b2075cb0$7f7213cc@server> <32d8cbec.1228965@news.inetport.com> <01bc015b$bb8aaa90$3a7213cc@server> <32e158b6.12765913@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bc0280$02f2d770$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 01:04:06 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 74
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32e158b6.12765913@news.inetport.com>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:

[trivial text snipped]

> >Perhaps you misunderstood...
> 
> I understood very well, Mr. Sabitini.

Mark, at least show enough respect to spell my name right.

> >I was asking that you respect my right to give
> >my opinions,
> 
> You have that right and I respect that. You must also respect that I
> be allowed to inquire about the source of your opinions and try to
> fish out what they are based on. Frankly, that is how human beings
> learn from each other. Simple opinions are mostly worthless without
> some kind of reasoning placed behind them.

"Simple opinions" are the starting point of discussion, the whole point of
UseNet newsgroups, n'est pas?

> [snip]
> 
> Mike Curtis:
> >> Look at it this way: If someone should actually substantiate a
> >> revisionist claim that has to do with holocuast history it'll be
> >> stored. 
> >> >
> 
> Sabitini retorts:
> >>This is not the point. Please see other posts regarding why I don't
want
> >>my name there.
> 
> >> I was talking about substance and not your name. When did I bring up
> >> _your_ name?
> >
> >*Sigh* You accuse me of changing the subject, yet this is exactly what
your
> >are doing. I told you many times: it is too easy to misconstrue the
meaning
> >of posts as stored by your archiving system.
> 
> What is *my* archiving system? I had said that if someone actually
> made an argument that revised history it would be stored. Stored
> where? On my and everyone's hard drive for one. DejaNews would pick it
> up as would Nizkor and other places that archive public postings. The
> claims and the evidence would not be lost. That, sir, was the point I
> was *trying* to impress upon you.
> 
> > This is a fact. You cannot
> >deny it. Deal with it.
> >
> 
> What am I denying?

That Nizkor's archiving system is easy, *too easy* to abuse.

[.sig snipped]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:39 PST 1997
Article: 92952 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <01bbfc39$f7f059c0$737213cc@server> <32d3d30c.1387682@news.inetport.com> <01bbfd06$c60c3320$5d7213cc@server>  <01bbfdca$5e4482f0$4f7213cc@server> 
Message-ID: <01bc0281$c3ec20c0$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 01:16:39 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 62
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
...
> In article <01bbfffa$9f86d060$4c7213cc@server> "Anthony Sabatini"
 writes:
> >From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
> >Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust
Denial" a bad thing?)
> >Date: 11 Jan 97 20:04:10 GMT
> 
> >Joel Rosenberg  wrote in article
> >...
> 
> >[snip]
> 
> >> And you're certainly entitled to nurse your pet theory, sans any
> >evidence, 
> >> just as you'd be entitled to have a pet theory that, say, the Moon is
> >made of 
> >> green cheese.  
> >> 
> >> But if you accused, say, NASA of having faked the moon landings --
they
> >didn't 
> >> find the cheese, after all -- people might wonder what your
motivations
> >are 
> >> for expounding (in such a limited way, shying away from any discussion
of
> >the 
> >> evidence) such a bizarre theory.
> >> 
> >> I know I would.
> >> 
> >> And I know I do.  
> >> 
> >> Care to enlighten me?  
> 
> >*Sigh.* Joel, I think you are being a tad paranoid here. I don't have
any
> >secret motivations, as you seem to be suggesting.
> 
> Heaven forfend, "Anthony."  So tell me, why is your pet theory that the
moon 
> is made of green cheese.

Joel, where did you get the idea I believe the moon is made of cheese? Can
you prove it, please? We'll all be waiting. (Can it be that Joel is also
about to be rightly branded a proven liar?)

[Joel's meaningless .sig deleted]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:40 PST 1997
Article: 92953 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References:  <19970101232800.SAA25052@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com> <01bbfa97$da7c5e50$2b7213cc@server> <32d4ae64.2460694@199.0.216.204> <01bbfc3c$48980420$737213cc@server> <32dec934.9911688@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bc0283$f1a3dab0$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 01:32:16 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 89
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32dec934.9911688@news.inetport.com>...
> "Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
> 
> >tom moran  wrote in article
> ><32d4ae64.2460694@199.0.216.204>...
> >
> >[much snipped]
> >
> >> literature. The Holocaust is 99.99 % a Jewish story. The Jews are the
> >> ones that have collected the $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$. 
> >> 
> >
> >I'm not so sure. Personally, I believe the story has been grossly
> >exaggerated by the Allies (after winning the war) for political gain.
> 
> What gain?

They end up looking like the good guys, they get to force their defeated
enemies to do and say pretty much what they like, etc. etc.

> > In
> >fact, changing the focus of the international media to the defeated
Nazis
> >to cover up their own atrocities certainly has the ring of truth to it.
> >After all, who would you believe: the evil Nazis who lost under God's
eyes
> >or our triumphant heroes?
> >
> 
> I don't understand the point here.

The point is simply that since they won the war, the Allies can say what
they like and most people will believe them. (And it seems to have worked!)

> >Did some unscrupulous Jews take advantage of the situation to further
their
> >own agenda (or wallets)?
> 
> Who?

Anyone who wrote cool horror stories about the Holocaust (citizens
undoubtedly wanted to hear every last detail of the war), people who opened
museums (they charge entrance fees, don't they?), film makers who attract
large crowds of movie-goers with promises of ghastly special effects and
horror), et. al.

> > Undoubtedly, but this is hardly cause to denouce
> >the entire Jewish people.
> 
> You'll get there, I fear.

Hardly, Mr. Curtis. Your baseless assertions serve no purpose other than to
make you look the tyrant. Your fears, BTW, are also largely irrelevant
here--keep them to yourself.

> > However, ANYONE who has used the tragedy of the
> >Second World War for gain should be denounced as charlatans as soon as
> >possible.
> 
> Used? How so?

As I explained above. There is/was indeed lots of money to be made. Will
you deny this, too?

> > If these tales continued unabated, our great-great grandchildren
> >will probably believe it [today's generally-accepted views of the
> >Holocaust] as Holy writ.
> >
> >Let the truth be told!
> >
> 
> I see you are out of the closet. It didn't take long, did it?

What exactly are you accusing me of _now_, Mr. Curtis? Speak up, please.

[.sig deleted]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:41 PST 1997
Article: 92990 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com>
Message-ID: <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0226.infobahnos.com
Date: 11 Jan 97 18:00:12 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 37
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.belnet.be!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0226.infobahnos.com

Ourobouros wrote in article <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com>...
> Would you please remove all of my posts off your site?
> 
> Your cooperation would be appreciated.
> 
> Ourobouros.
> 

Ha! Forget it, Ourobouros. These guys at Nizkor believe that have a moral,
ethical and legal right to archive information in such a manner that can
easily lead messages to be misconstrued and twisted as to their original
intent.

I again challenge the Nizkorites to explain an easy method whereby someone
browsing their archives can reconstruct a thread so that someone's comments
have the benefit of their proper context with respect to previous messages
and responses.

AFAIK, the purpose of this archive is the equivalent of having a sword over
your head. It exists as an implied threat so they can use your own words
against you (twisted and deformed, of course!). With it, they give the
impression that Big Brother is watching, so you'd better be careful what
you say. I find this totally despicable and reprehensible, not to mention
dishonest. (But don't worry, I am trying to give them a taste of their own
medicine, using their own quotes from DejaNews in an attempt to show them
what they are doing. I urge others to follow suit.)

Of course, the Nizkorites will feign ignorance or strongly protest
otherwise. It is to be expected considering their well-documented tactics.

As an aside, I find it interesting to note that their "persons" database
does not include one Joel Rosenberg, a noted loud-mouth and well-documented
spewer of obscenities and other nonsensical writings. I am quite certain he
belongs to this organization, even if not "officially". (Now watch the
Nizkorites ask me for proof!) In any case, can someone at Nizkor explain
this apparent oversight?



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:42 PST 1997
Article: 92998 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Nizkor = Propaganda (Details inside!)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <01bc00bc$7c036460$647213cc@server> <5be81r$3mm@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
Message-ID: <01bc027e$900e4380$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 00:53:44 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 78
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

Derek Bell  wrote in article
<5be81r$3mm@bell.maths.tcd.ie>...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> "Anthony Sabatini"  writes:
> >Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines propaganda as:
> >2: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of
helping
> >or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
> >3: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's
cause
> >or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an
> >effect
> 
> 	With the broad definition you use, just about _any_ organisation
> would be guilty - all try to help their cause, all try to "injure" their
> opponents by trying to discourage their supporters. Nizkor's work fits
only the
> broadest definition of "propaganda", that which covers all organisations.
A
> narrower definition applies more to rumour and allegations alone, which
doesn't
> fit Nizkor.

Sorry, Derek, but anyone who accepts Webster's dictionary as a reputable
source will be forced to accept that what comes out of Nizkor is, in fact,
propaganda.

> >Clearly, this is the case with respect to Nizkor. As such, we should
take
> >their so-called 'facts' and other 'evidence' with a grain of salt.
> 
> 	Ah, I see you doubt the evidence Nizkor offers - would you kindly offer
> your reasons?

Certainly. By looking through DejaNews, we see that the Nizkorites are
constantly insulting, smearing, and ridiculing posters whose views don't
happen to agree with theirs. They present their 'evidence' as 'accept it or
else' and generally display a holier-than-thou attitude.  Further, we see
that they archive data in such a way as to make it easy to misconstrue
posts, their "persons" database is missing such notables as Joel Rosenberg,
and they constantly brand anyone who doesn't agree with them as liars,
anti-Semites, Nazi apologists, Holocaust 'deniers', et. al. All of this,
when taken as a whole, adds up to some pretty suspicious behavior. Wouldn't
you agree?

> >The'proof' that they continuously offer (to anyone willing to listen) is
> >designed to win one over to their way of thinking.
> 
> 	Indeed, Nizkor's proof is convincing. I suggest that you read through
> a large amount of it.

I went through some of it, but truth to tell, the site is quite boring.

> >Hypocrites.
> 
> 	Nizkor isn't being hypocritical - Nizkor isn't racist or
> antidemocratic, so it doesn't fall under the list of groups Nizkor
opposes.

I have never accused Nizkorites of being racist or "antidemocratic".
However, they *are* hypocrites for calling labeling posts containing
opposing views as 'propaganda' when _they themselves do the very same
thing!_

[the rest snipped]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:43 PST 1997
Article: 92999 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: KGB Americas Monitoring Private Citizens? Yes!
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
References: <199701082301.PAA23108@mailmasher.com> <5b3enj$f6o@news.usaor.net> <5b47b4$55@news.usaor.net> <5b49jj$iha@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32D65D7F.3355@phoenix.net> <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server> 
Message-ID: <01bc027f$677479c0$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 00:59:44 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 40
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:92999 alt.politics.white-power:55843 alt.politics.nationalism.white:43596

The proven liar Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> In article <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I have my way, the only
> > thing these Nizkorites will be interrogating is the prison guard as to
what
> > time lunch is served.
> 
> It seems the veneer of Mr. Sabatini's "appreciation" of democracy, the
> Rights of Man, the Constitution, due process, et. al. is about as thin as
> his too thin skin. Why am I not suprised? 

Spare us your idiocy, Mr. Van Alstine. You are, after all, a known liar.

> Of course, the Nazis intimidated, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered
those
> who they felt stood in their way. It seems that Mr. Sabatini is simply
> keeping with Nazi tradition. 

No, Mr. Van Alstine, the tactics you describe clearly fits Nizkor's (and
your) modus operendi. The proof is at DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com)
and AltaVista (http://www.altavista.com).

[.sig deleted]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:43 PST 1997
Article: 93000 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <19970110181200.NAA18496@ladder01.news.aol.com> <19970110194500.OAA20978@ladder01.news.aol.com> 
Message-ID: <01bc0281$6e984180$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 01:14:16 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 46
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

Daniel Keren  wrote in article
...
> dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:

[Danny's argument with "DvdThomas" deleted for lack of relevance]

>  ---
> In  Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
> the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini 

      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> , wrote the following about
> the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
> of the Holocaust:
> 
> # Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I 
> # have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will 
> # be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time 
> # lunch is served.
> 
> 
> 
> But, do not forget: "revisionist" always claim that
> they support free speech...

It seems that only Nizkorites and their ilk have branded me a "Holocaust
revisionist". *I* never claimed any such thing. I merely wished to discuss
some ideas (as a trip to DejaNews can easily prove), nor did I ever claim
to "support free speech" (although I am certainly not against it).

So, Daniel, where did you get your information from? Would you care to
prove it? We'll wait. (We wouldn't want to brand you a proven liar like
Mark Van Alstine, would we?)

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 08:27:44 PST 1997
Article: 93001 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: A word for Mr.Sabatini
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <32df93e4.41465354@199.0.216.204> <32dd4c5c.1482425@199.0.216.204>
Message-ID: <01bc028b$211c1710$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 02:23:42 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 63
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

tom moran  wrote in article
<32dd4c5c.1482425@199.0.216.204>...
> >
> >	There seems to be a continuing dialog of disagreement revolving
> >around Mr.Sabatini's posting of his analysis of Nizkor URL dossiers on
> >those who disagree. Basically Mr.Sabatini said he noticed Nizkor URL
> >dossiers are nothing more than articles taken from the middle of
> >threads. It seems Mr.Sabatini has used the word "reconstruct" as in
> >you can't reconstruct a thread out of what is filed in any particular
> >Nizkor URL dossier. This gave the impetus for those who are
> >connoisseurs of the value of Nizkor URL dossiers to try and bleed it
> >for everything they could in a campaign to harp.

Rightly so.

> >
> >	Of course anyone could go into Nizkor URL dossier files and get
> >some names and stuff and then take it over to Deja News and work it
> >around that way. 

Yes, but the vast majority of browser will not go through the trouble.

> >
> >	But, you can't do it in Nizkor files. Nope. If you want to do it
> >you have to go someplace else. Nizkor URL dossiers are nothing more
> >than one single article from a thread, excluding everything else, even
> >the original article that was posted that led to the thread.

Exactly.

> >
> >	Mr.Sabatini seems to think this is unfair, corrupt even. Perhaps
> >he is right. But we should look at this way, no one goes to Nizkor URL
> >dossiers except once. Once they see what it is, they know Nizkor for
> >what it is.

Yes, but once someone sees a comment of questionable material, even if out
of context, he or she will have already made up their mind as to what to
make of the poster. Everyone knows the axiom about 'first impressions'...

> >
> >	Moran loves Nizkor's URL dossiers.  
> 
> 	Nizkor practices and contents are suited to the idiot. No person,
> outside of those who are so dedicated, of any intelligence would
> consider Nizkor to be anything but childish.

Unfortunately, someone simply browsing through their database (and a whim,
say), *may* get the wrong idea of someone, especially since Nizkor's site
_looks_ 'official' and its contents are one of a touchy matter, so to
speak.

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 11:41:59 PST 1997
Article: 93024 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server> 
Message-ID: <01bc0279$3d81daf0$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 00:15:37 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 43
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
...
> In article <01bbffe9$4bfcc460$4c7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
>  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > Ha! Forget it, Ourobouros. These guys at Nizkor believe that have a
moral,
> > ethical and legal right to archive information in such a manner that
can
> > easily lead messages to be misconstrued and twisted as to their
original
> > intent....
> 
> Translation: Mr. Sabatini is whining because his and others' vile
> Holocaust denial, Nazi apologia, anti-Seitism etc is archived and easily
> available to the general (Net) public. Mr. Sabatini, and moral miscreants
> like him, seems particularly peeved that his fabrications, distortions,
> and insults, etc can be ferreted out and brought back to haunt him by
> using the truth in the analysis and detailed refutation of his
propaganda.

Mr. Van Alstine, unless you can prove that I an indeed a Holocaust
"denier", promote Nazi ideology, and have expressed anti-Semitic sentiment
with conclusive proof (which, in my opinion, you cannot), you will be
forever and irrevocable branded a known liar.


[Mark's irrelevant chatter deleted]


----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 11:42:00 PST 1997
Article: 93025 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: I'll ask again: Why is Holocaust denial a "bad thing"? (Was: Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <32dc833c.16541927@199.0.216.204> <32D1A6BC.7716@ibm.net> <5astgr$j1b@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <01bbffe6$33deeff0$4c7213cc@server> <5b9vjk$co2@orion.cybercom.net> <5bb7cg$cm4@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
Message-ID: <01bc027a$b4a1cea0$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 00:26:07 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 21
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

Laura Finsten  wrote in article
<5bb7cg$cm4@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>...
> "Sabatini" is Spanish?  May I ask what part of Spain?

Laura, I am not Spanish, nor did I ever claim such. This nonsense comes
>from  the noted loud-mouth and all-around spewer of stupidity, Joel
Rosenberg, clueless wonder and paranoid supreme.

[.sig deleted]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 11:42:01 PST 1997
Article: 93026 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: Please Answer My Question
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <32D041BA.3836@ibm.net> <19970106034400.WAA15003@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32d5175f.332794472@news.zilker.net> <5as3vf$iru$2@gruvel.une.edu.au> <32D6B833.F0D@phoenix.net> <32e3b6e1.9020429@news.inetport.com>
Message-ID: <01bc0282$2bbde300$627213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0308.infobahnos.com
Date: 15 Jan 97 01:19:33 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 51
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.total.net!ppp-0308.infobahnos.com

Mike Curtis  wrote in article
<32e3b6e1.9020429@news.inetport.com>...
> Doc Tavish  wrote:
> 
> >ibokor wrote:
> >> 
> >> Mike Curtis (mike@aimetering.com) wrote:
> >> : Of course, we have both actually read the book.
> >> 
> >> That's cheating!!!
> >> How can you expect to have a decent
> >> argument if you actually know what you're
> >> talking about?
> >> 
> >> d.A.
> >
> >Ibokor you still haven't answered my question- Who filled more body
> >bags- Nazis or Communists? Go ahead and ignore me but I won't go away
> >until you give a public answer!
> 
> It doesn't matter. this isn't a question of comparative analysis. This
> IS about Holocaust denial and not  the musing of an individual who
> knows nothing about the politics and the people he hates so much.
> 
> >Put another way- which group of followers killed more people- those that
> >followed Hitler's ideology or those that followed a Marxist Communist
> >ideology? Very simple question.
> >
> 
> What is Marxism? What is Communism? What is Socialism? What is
> communism? What is the difference between a Marxist-Leninist and a
> Marxist? 

Mike, why don't *you* tell us what these terms mean? After all, you seem to
tell us what to think and believe in just about everything else...

We'll be waiting, Mike. Mike...? Are you still there?

[.sig deleted]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!



From anthonys@infobahnos.com Wed Jan 15 18:18:35 PST 1997
Article: 93067 of alt.revisionism
From: "Anthony Sabatini" 
Subject: Re: I'll ask again: Why is Holocaust denial a "bad thing"? (Was: Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
References: <32dc833c.16541927@199.0.216.204> <32D1A6BC.7716@ibm.net> <5astgr$j1b@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <01bbffe6$33deeff0$4c7213cc@server>  <01bc0156$fe3a9a80$2d7213cc@server> <5be6af$ri7@orion.cybercom.net>
Message-ID: <01bc034b$50ede610$367213cc@server>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-0204.infobahnos.com
Date: 16 Jan 97 01:19:29 GMT
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Lines: 101
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!ppp-0204.infobahnos.com

Allan Matthews  wrote in article
<5be6af$ri7@orion.cybercom.net>...
> In article <01bc0156$fe3a9a80$2d7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
 wrote:
> >Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
> >...
> >> In article <01bbffe6$33deeff0$4c7213cc@server>, "Anthony Sabatini"
> >>  wrote:
> >> > I'll ask again: Why is "Holocaust denial" in and of itself a bad
thing?
> >> > Never mind the "anti-Semitism", which is clearly hate. This I can
> >> > understand. But what about simple denial? Here you are clearly
implying it
> >> > is somehow morally and/or ethically wrong. Why?
> >> > 
> >> > [the rest snipped]
> >> 
> >> Because Holocaust denial denigrates the historical record of the
Holocaust
> >> with specious propaganda, puerile fabrications, and blatant deceits.
It is
> >> an attempt to murder history and thereby, if successful, undo the
(harsh)
> >> lessons learned from it. 
> >> 
> >> Such actions, by any reasonable standard today, are clearly unethical
and
> >> the puporposes for which such actions are committed are immoral. 
> >> 
> >> Clear enough? 
> >> 
> >
> >Then, by your own logic, we should condemn all non-Christians, for the
> >disbelief in Christ "denigrates the historical record" of His lifetime
> >"with specious propaganda, pureile fabrications, and blatant deceits. It
is
> >an attempt to murder history and thereby, if successful, undo the
(harsh)
> >lessons learned from" Him. "Such actions, by any reasonable standard
today,
> >are clearly unethical and the purposes for which such actions are
committed
> >are immoral."
> 
> Now this piece of "logic" is a bit a stretch, even for a revisionist. 
Try to 
> stick to the subject - i.e. the Holocaust.  Afterall, you were the one
who 
> started this tread in the first place.  

My "piece of 'logic'" is merely used to illustrate a point.

> 
> You've stated that you think lying is not honorable, yet it seems obvious
that 
> you already have a positive opinion of Holocaust denial.  Seems
hypocritical 
> to me.  

I don't understand how you can possibly equate lying with "Holocaust
denial".

> 
> BTW, by the logic of Christ no one should go around condemning anybody. 
"Let 
> he who is without sin cast the first stone," and all that.  Of course, he
also 
> taught that anyone who didn't believe in him was in big trouble.  

As I indicated, the "piece of 'logic'" is used solely as an example. I am
not making any moral statements here.

BTW, Allan, you just finished telling me to stick to the topic at hand and
then you go on to continue exploring the "piece of 'logic'" you find
objectionable. Strange...

> 
> allan
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >What are we to do with such non-believers? Eh, Mr. Van Alstine?
> >
> >[.sig snipped]
> >
> 

[.sig snipped]

----------------------------------------
As a well-known and proven liar, anything that Mark Van Alstine says must
be carefully examined for evidence of further mistruths. His virulent
spewing of stupidity, the act of a mindless or merely ignorant person, is
often laced with holier-than-thou statements and blatant 'my way or no way'
assertions. For further evidence of Mark's asinine behavior, please check
out DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com) and/or AltaVista
(http://www.altavista.com).

Web site coming soon!




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