The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/roberts.jeff/1995/roberts.1295


From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Mon Dec  4 06:56:40 PST 1995
Article: 14859 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More egocentric insanity
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 01:30:19 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 70
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In article: <49l890$717@access5.digex.net>  mstein@access5.digex.net 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> Path: 
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> From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: More egocentric insanity
> Date: 30 Nov 1995 16:38:40 -0500
> Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
> Lines: 31
> Message-ID: <49l890$717@access5.digex.net>
> References: <48d89n$t20@zippy.cais.net> <48oieo$dfj@zippy.cais.net> 
<497f9n$djn@zippy.cais.net> <49kn9p$9ir@zippy.cais.net>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
> 
> In article <49kn9p$9ir@zippy.cais.net>, tom moran  
wrote:
> >   17. Ask which buliding one is talking about after getting a concise
> >description of the source coverage and eventual exact location as
> >requested. (11)	
> 
>     The egocentrically insane Mr. Moran seems to think that since he has
> seen the Cole video, everyone else must have a copy.  It still hasn't
> occurred to him that maybe Danny Keren doesn't have copy of the video.  It
> still hasn't occurred to him that Ken McVay might not have a copy of the
> video.  It still hasn't occurred to him that he hasn't even given the
> title of this video, and that it certainly isn't something you can just
> run down to the video store to rent.  All that Mr. Moran knows is that he
> has seen the video, and he knows what he is talking about, therefore
> everybody else should magically know too.  That's egocentric insanity.
> 
>     "Auschwitz" is not an exact location.  There were a lot of buildings
> at Auschwitz.  In fact, Auschwitz was more than one camp.  There was
> Auschwitz I, where the early gas chambers were located.  There was

This is incorrect. There were no "gas chambers at Auschwitz I". 
Gas chamber propagandists claim a morgue was used as an "gas chamber". 

> Auschwitz II, also known as Birkenau, where the later gas chambers were
> located.  

This is also incorrect. There were no "gas chambers at Auschwitz II". 
Gas chamber propagandists claim morgues were used as "gas chambers". 
There was no buildings built as "gas chambers", unless we count delousing 
chambers.

>There was even Auschwitz III, also known as Monowitz.

Where there was NO places were built or used in the function of "execution 
gas chambers". 
 
>     Mr.  Moran undoubtedly doesn't know this, so he doesn't understand why
> what he thinks is an exact location is not an exact location.  But because
> he is egocentrically insane, 

Abuse. I expected better from you, Mike.

[Sigh - rest deleted]

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec  8 00:00:30 PST 1995
Article: 15423 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.correct,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: WANNSEE PROTOCOLS Part 1
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 21:44:30 GMT
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Note: [i] previous word italics.

PARTIAL TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT NG-2586-G* 
PROSECUTION EXHIBIT 1452

EXTRACTS FROM THE MINUTES OF THE WANNSEE CONFERENCE, 20 JANUARY 1942, WITH 
FIFTEEN PERSONS PARTICIPATING, INCLUDING THE DEFENDANT STUCKART AT WHICH 
PLANS FOR "THE FINAL SOLUTION OF THE JEWISH QUESTION" WERE DISCUSSED

[Stamp] Top Secret

30 copies-16th copy


I. The following persons took part in the conference on th Solution of the 
Jewish problem held on 20 January 1942, Am Grossen Wannsee No 56/58:

Gauleiter Dr. Meyer and		        Reich Ministry for the Occupied
Reichsamtsleiter Dr. Leibbrandt 	Eastern territories
State Secretary Dr. Stuckart		Reich Ministry of the Interior
State Secretary Neumann 		Plenipotentiary for the Four Year 
                                        Plan
State Secretary Dr. Freisler		Reich Ministry of Justice
State Secretary Dr. Buhler 		Office of the Governor General
Under State Secretary Luther		Foreign Office
SS Colonel Klopfer			Party Chancellery
Ministerial Director Kritzinger         Reich Cancellery

[Handwritten] D III 29 Top Secret
SS Major General Hofmann		Race and Settlement Main Office
SS Major General Muller		        Reich Security Main Office
SS Lieutenant Colonel Eichmann

SS Senior Colonel Dr. Schongarth, 	Security Police and SD
Commander of the Security Police
and the SD in the Government 
General

SS Major Dr Lange, Commander		Security Police and SD
of the Security Police and the SD for 
the General Districts Latvia, as 
representative of the Security Police 
and the SD for the Reich Com-
missariat for the Ostland

II. At the beginning of the meeting the Chief of the Security Police and the 
SD, SS Lieutenant General Heydrich, reported his appointment by the Reich 
Marshal to service as Commissioner for the Preparation of the Final Solution 
of the European Jewish Problem, and pointed out the officials had been 
invited to this conference in order to clear up the fundamental problems. 
The Reich Marshal's request to have a draft submitted to him on the 
organizational, factual, and material requirements with respect to the Final 
Solution of the European Jewish Problem. [organisatorischen, sachlichen und 
materiellen Belange im Hinblick auf die Endlosung der europaischen 
Judenfrage] necessitated this previous general consultation by all the 
central offices directly concerned, in order that there should be 
coordination in the policy [Parallelisierung der Linienfuehrung].
The primary responsibility [Federfuhrung] for the administrative handling of 
the Final Solution of the Jewish Problem will rest centrally with the Reich 
Leader SS and the Chief of the German Police(Chief of the Security Police 
and the SD),regardless of geographic boundaries.
The Chief of the Security Police and the SD thereafter gave a brief review 
of the battle conducted up to now against these enemies. 
The most important aspects are-
 a. Forcing the Jews out of the various fields out of the community life of 
the German people. 
 b. Forcing the Jews out of the living space [Lebensraum] of the German 
people.
In execution of these efforts there was undertaken - as the only possible 
provisional solutlon-the acceleration of the emigration of the Jews from 
Reich territory on an intensified and methodical scale.
By decree of the Reich Marshal, a Reich Central Office for Jewish Emigration 
was set up in January 1939, and the direction of this office was entrusted 
to the Chief of the Security Police and the SD. It had in particular the 
task-
(a.) Of taking all steps for the preparation[i] for an intensified 
emigration of the Jews.
(b.) Of steering[i] the emigration stream.
(c.) Of expediting the emigration in individual[i] cases.

*Translation from NMT, Vol. XIII, pp. 210-217.
Inasmuch as those who write in English on the "Final Solution" usually cite 
this abridged translation-even Dr. Butz does so-it seems advisable to 
reproduce that here, despite its inaccuracies, or, rather, because of them. 
Our translation of the omitted passages is italicized and enclosed in 
brackets. - T.F   (JR ie = [ and ])



-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec  8 09:41:23 PST 1995
Article: 15466 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: AMERICAN "INVESTIGATORS" TORTURED GERMANS
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 20:45:58 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 89
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         AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS".

By Fred Redman

TODAY I am able to tell you the full story, revealed in Washington, of the 
American war trials scandal. It is an ugly story of barbarous tortures 
inflicted in the name of Allied justice. 
It is time the British people knew all the facts. Little has appeared in our 
press until today.
The charge is that American soldiers, building evidence against Germans 
accused of war crimes, have behaved with the same sadistic cruelty as the 
beasts who terrorised Europe when it was under Nazi domination.

The truth has come out through the persistence of an American lawyer and the 
frank horror of an American Judge who refuses to be muzzled.
Judge Edward Van Roden member of a US Army Commission of Inquiry tells how 
burning matches were forced under the fingernails of a prisoner by American 
investigators to extort a confession. For months, he says, men were kept in 
solitary confinement on near-starvation rations. 
And they were beaten up and savagely kicked until strong men were redeuced 
to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their 
prosecutors. 

The war department have shown the Judges personal report only to General 
Lucius Clay, their military commander in Germany. Washington suspects the 
reason was that it was too shocking for public disclosure. 

....Commission sent to Germany to investigate was was even more candid.
"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair." he charged.
"this was standard operating procedure with our American investigators.
"They would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in 
the face with brass knuckles."
US Army prosecution teams had he said had posed as priests to hear 
confessions and give absolution.

At mock trials men who refused to confess were confronted by a crucifix
and burning candles. Those sham courts, attended by men in US Army uniform, 
passed sham death sentences. Then the accused were told: "Sign this 
confession and we get you acquitted." 

[The Sunday Pictorial Jan 23rd 1949 as cited on p82 in "Holocaust Denial; 
New Nazi Lie or New Inquisition" by Alexander Baron"]
Email A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk for details. ]


"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair."

"The change [of public opinion] followed the notorious case of the American 
Dachau Tribunal. This tribunal which was abolished in December 1947,  
had tried 1,500 Germans and condemned 420 of them to death. In autumn of 
that year Dachau justicc became the subject of a commission of investigation 
under Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court. The commission 
recommended that 29 men who were still under sentence ot death should be 
reprieved, and it declared that statements had be obtained both from 
defendents and witnesses by highly questionable means."

[The final solution [1968] by G. Reitlinger. page 548]

Question: 

The 'Americans' tortured defendents. Shouldn't it call into question the 
validity of confessions given in previous trials?

Question:

If the Americans tortured defendents on such a scale, what did the British, 
and Polish/Czech Communists do?



Check out the article on the "Dachau mistrials" on Brads website:-


http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/


-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec  8 09:41:24 PST 1995
Article: 15467 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TRanslations of _Mein Kampf_
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 20:28:20 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <207597131wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <48jptk$lro@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>  <48v4bv$seh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
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In article: <48v4bv$seh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>  cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia 
A Clancy) writes:
> Path: 
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> From: cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: TRanslations of _Mein Kampf_
> Date: 22 Nov 1995 12:17:03 GMT
> Organization: University of Pittsburgh
> Lines: 37
> Message-ID: <48v4bv$seh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
> References: <48jptk$lro@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> 

> NNTP-Posting-Host: unixs4.cis.pitt.edu
> 
> In article ,
> Charles R.L. Power  wrote:
> 
> >Cecelia, you may be interested in a book about the various English
> >translations of MEIN KAMPF: 
> >
> >Hitler's MEIN KAMPF in Britain and Ameica: A Publishing History 
> >1930-39, by James J. Barnes and Patience P. Barnes, Cambridge 
> >University Press, 1980
> 
> 
> Dear Charles,
> 
> Thanks.  I am saving this message.   I once started to read
> Mein Kamph out of "obligation" (somebody said to me that the
> Germans a "knew" because "It's all in Mein Kampf"  I read it
> to see, but only got as far as the first three or four chapters.
> 
> I kept telling myslef the book was boring.  That was my
> way of distancing myusefl from it.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Cecelia
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cecelia Clancy            regular e-mail     cacst9+@pitt.edu 
> PO Box 71222              anonymous e-mail   an383188@anon.penet.fi 
> Pittsburgh, PA 15213      voice              (412) 441-2231  (USA) 
> USA                       FAX                (412) 687-3455  (USA)
> 
> Note on the FAX:  The above FAX number is the FAX machine at the Kinko's 
> near the University of Pittsburgh main campus, so please indicate that  
> the FAX is for me so the clerk will know who it is for.  If you want to
> send something confidential, be aware that the clerk will be able to see
> what you send.  
> **************************************************************************
> 
> 

Apparently the 'authorised' translation into English of "Mein Kampf" was the 
'Murphy' Edition. 
I expect there is a copy in the Library of Congress.

 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec  8 10:14:36 PST 1995
Article: 15472 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.correct,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: NEW BOOK ON GOEBBELS By IRVING
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 23:40:23 GMT
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Lines: 73
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Books by David Irving.

Hitler's War and the War Path
[857 pages, 200 original colour/bw photos]
ISBN 1872 197 108
Cost 25


Goebbels
Mastermind of the Third Reich
[714 pages, 50 pages of photos] 
ISBN 1872 197 132
Cost 25
out March 1996. 


Der Unbekannte Dr Goebbels. die Geheimen Tagebucher 1938
(The unknown Dr Goebbels. The secret daybooks of 1938)   
[435 pages]
ISBN 0958 760 217
Cost 15


Apocalypse 1945. the Destruction of Dresden.   
Fully revised with colour photos.
[400 pages] 
ISBN 0958 760 217
Cost 15


Churchill's War
vol 1 The Struggle for Power. 
[666 pages]
ISBN 0947 117 563 
Cost 25

vol 2 Triumph in Adversity.
[900 pages]
ISBN 1872 197 159
Cost 25
out March 1996.

Nuremberg. The Last Battle
(ie the "Nuremberg trials")
[400 pages, now in English, greatly expanded, with exclusive colour photos]
ISBN 1872 197 167
Cost 20

Available from :-

Focal Point Publications, 81 Duke Street, London W1M 5DJ  

US distributor;

Insitute for Historical Review, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659.

Australia:

Veritas Publishing, PO Box 42, Cranbrook, WA 6321.




-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 07:19:39 PST 1995
Article: 16128 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PROVE IT! MR MORRIS.
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:23:28 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 212
Message-ID: <325150842wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <4afr5r$7oe@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:

Jeff   wrote:
There were no "gas chambers at Auschwitz II". 
Gas chamber propagandists claim morgues were used as "gas chambers". 
There was no buildings built as "gas chambers", unless we count delousing 
chambers.
 
(Michael P. Stein) mstein@access5.digex.net then writes:
Would you please then explain why Bischoff wrote a letter to Kammler 
talking about a "Vergasungskeller?"  If you theorize that it was something 
else, could you please produce some evidence to support the theory, rather 
than making a naked "because I say so" assertion? 

jr> The point here is, afaik, it is a fact that there were no purpose-built 
gaschambers marked on the plans, shows that there was no "gas chambers" 
built.  
 
jm> It never ceases to amaze me how deniers seem not to have the least
grasp of the contexts in which events occur. Take the example of
Himmler's Posnan speech: deniers focus on a translation of "ausrotten"
which is strained at best and ignore the words for "annihilate."
"destroy," and "kill" which appear almost in the same sentence. This
is an insane reduction of the context for a word that in common usage
means "destroy."

This is typical, Mr Morris brings in another point, and doesn't answer the 
point in contention. 
However, as I have pointed out, the Himmler speeches, were tampered with, as 
David Irving says. "Pages were RETYPED and REINSERTED as the different 
indenting shows...."

(cf Hitlers War by David Irving)
Available from FOCAL POINT PUBLICATIONS, 81 DUKE STREET, LONDON, WC2.  

> Similarly, you focus on the crematorium plans and ignore the broader
> contexts of evidence, such as, the inventory lists for gassing
> equipment, the records of transports showing the arrival of more than
> a million people and no similar records of departures, the testimonies
> of the SS guards who participated in selections and gassings, and so
> on. It is enough for you to reduce the context to a single set of
> plans and say that because you don't see the word for "gassing cellar"
> on any of the plans it could not have been such a thing.

Mr Morris, now talks about "inventory lists for gassing equipment", "records 
of transports of more than a million people and no departures", "testimonies 
of SS guards", but CANNOT keep to the point, that there were NO 
purpose-built "gas chambers" built and marked on the plans as "gas 
chambers". A point on which Mr Stein is strangely quiet.......

jm> Assuming that you have not given up on the utterly ridiculous notion
that the "Vergasungskeller" was a "coal-gasification plant," could you
point to the plans, the correspondence, the work orders,--anything at
all!--which indicate that the SS decided to build a coal gasification
plant in Krema II?

For myself, the "vergasungskeller" is a bit odd. It is as Mr Stein says 
"curious". I am trying to keep an open mind. However, I have still not seen 
any more documents which mention the "vergasungskeller". It's seems ODD.  

jr>Unless of course the plans with the room marked "morgue" was a codeword 
for "gaschamber" or "gassing cellar", or whatsoever because no "codebook" 
has ever been found. Perhaps the planners were told "verbally" that it was 
"really" an "gas chamber".  
 
jm> You are a fine one to talk about coded language. I seem to recall that
a short while ago you were trying to argue that when Hans Frank said
"annhilation" with respect to Jews, he really meant "relocation." Or
 some such silliness.

NOT TRUE. You recall wrong.
I suggested nothing of the sort.

jr>The plans [as I recall] of Crematoria No 2 indicate no such room as an 
"Vergasungskeller". Two morgues ["LiechenKeller"] are indicated. 
It is a part of the "Holocaust" propaganda that "morgues" were not used as 
"morgues" but as "execution gas chambers". 
 
jm> Well, here you are back to the "because I say so argument" which you
embellish as follows:

jr> Various Holocaust claims involve a a dual "function". We are told that 
morgues were used as morgues in some cases, and as "execution gas chambers" 
in others. A delousing agent Zyclon B is used to "exterminate Jews", in some 
concentration camps, and in it's real function in other places. We are told 
that documents contain "coded" statements such as "in readiness for 
transport", " seperately quartered" etc which "really mean" that the persons 
referred to are to be/or are gassed. We are told by Mr Morris that the 
Crematoria at Birkenau "really" operated  in the function of "incinerators", 
later, Mr Morris, claimed it was the in the function of "blast furnaces". 
And yet despite the claim that the Crematoria were "really designed" to 
dispose of hundreds of thousands of bodies of exterminated jews, they failed 
to cope, and the hundreds of thousands of corpses had to be burnt in open 
pits. The pits of course weren't working on the days Allied recce aircraft 
took photos. But they were "really" operating on the other days.  
And of course the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" which was  
"really" the "total extermination of the Jews". 

jm> Sorry that the intellectual effort of making distinctions and sifting
probabilities is such a challenge for you. Historians don't just make
this stuff up as you seem to think; varieties of evidence are used to
distinguish between, say, a gas chamber and a delousing chamber.

Another insult. Still it's not as bad as the assertion that I am "still 
picking on little girls."

jm> Manwhile, if you are going to persist in baiting me with what you
think, or with would like to believe, I might have said about how crematoria 
were used and about their design principles, at least try to get it right.

Well, explain. Were they used as "blast furnaces" or "incinerators"? Why did 
you say one one week, and the other a little while later? 
Didn't you notice how nobody backed you up? That's because You are speaking 
with forked tongue.  

jr> Credat Judaeus Apella.
 
jm> Oh dear, the Al Baron method: when your argument gets weak, toss in an
irrelevant antisemitic remark.

Pathetic. This appears in the "The Final Solution" 1968 by Gerald 
Reitlinger, on page 581, who is a Jew. 
 
> BTW, your Latin is execrable.

It's spelt the same way as the book. 

jr>The word "vergasungskeller" appears in a letter (1) that Sturmbannfuhrer 
Karl Bischoff of the Auschwitz building dept is alleged to have written to 
SS Gruppenfuhrer Heinz Kammler.
 
jm> Only "alleged?" How convenient that you cast doubt on the authenticity
of the incovenient document. Most deniers accept that the
"Vergasungskeller" letter is authentic but try to explain it away.
You, on the other hand, have decide to cast doubt upon it. 
It looks more and more as if deniers will eventually deem every
inconvenient document a forgery.

As I said before, I try to keep a open mind. But after looking at the Dachau 
trials "evidence" where Germans were repeatly "kicked in the the testicles 
beyond repair"[1], where statements are submitted by the Allies, knowing 
them TO BE UNTRUE[2], when Hoess, makes statements of estimates of 3,000,000 
dead at Auschwitz, and then reduces it to about [afair] 1,135,000, which are 
still totally WRONG[3], and then the air photo of Birkenau of September 1944 
where it is evident to a BLIND BAT that there are NO vents to insert Zyclon 
B pellets into a morgue which is alleged to operating in the function of a 
"execution gas chamber", yet some one has drawn a thick line to repersent a 
wall in the WRONG place [4] then I have to say an single occurrence of the 
phrase "vergasungskeller" in one document with a security rating of "secret" 
as you say, and not "Reich top secret" etc in tons and tons of captured 
German documents, is not all that impressive..... 

[1] "All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair." 
"this was standard operating procedure with our American investigators...
[The Sunday Pictorial Jan 23rd 1949] 
[2] See Carlos Porter's superb article on the "Dachau trials" on Brads web 
site. http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
[3] [http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca] to check, if you must. Ask yourself why 
Hoess should confess to numbers that are NOT true, not once but, TWICE. He 
was only in charge of Birkenau.
[4] Air Photo Evidence by John Ball.
Available from Samisdat Publishers Ltd, 206 Carlton st, Toronto, Ontario, 
M5A 2L1, Canada. Cost $15. [- This is VERY revealing!] 

jr> Kammler was "the senior works engineer of 
the SS". Later, Heinz Kammler was responsible for among other things 
V-weapons, underground aircraft factories, etc. 
Reitlinger in his book (2) claims that "Kammler was one of the first people 
to be trusted with the secrets of the Final Solution."
Athough he doesn't KNOW this. Typically, it is an assumption, based 
apprently on the fact that Kammler wrote letters concerning crematoria.  
 
jm> Brilliant. Kammler is responsible for the expenditure of millions of
Reichmarks on the construction of crematoria, but he is not privy to
the purpose for which they were built. Don't you think he would have
wanted to know why Auschwitz required a per capita crematory capacity
five times greater than any of the camps like Dachau and Buchenwald?

No, I don't actually. Birkenau was to be expanded, as you well know, hence 
the "Mexico" camp. 
 
jm> You say that all that Reitlinger cites are Kammler's letters, yet, in
Reitlinger's next sentence, which you omit, we find that Kammler did
have some idea of what was going on at Auschwitz because "he had been
to Auschwitz on February 27th, 1942 and, as a consequence, an order
for two three-door crematorium furnaces was increased to five"
(Reitlinger, 2nd ed., p. 158).

As I said, he knew of matters concerning crematoria. So? As Al Baron says, 
he who asserts must prove.


So, Mr MORRIS PROVE that Heinz Kammler knew that the Jews were to be 
"gassed".     -----


This is a Challenge. 
  


[snip - rest of posting cut for space, to be addressed after Christmas.] 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 07:19:40 PST 1995
Article: 16129 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!peer-news.britain.eu.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THERE IS NO NEED FOR THAT [was How does anyone explain Ribbentrop?]
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:47:48 GMT
Organization: None
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References:  
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In article:   jamie@voyager.net 
(Jamie McCarthy) writes:

> A little while ago, I posted an article entitled "How do
> Holocaust-deniers explain Ribbentrop?"  It was just a quick article,
> nothing special, just a quote from the Nuremberg trial transcript
> really.
> 
> Greg Raven replied, in what I assume was a public posting cc'd to me
> (though it has not yet shown up at my site):
> 
> > How do Holocaust-deniers explain Ribbentrop? How should I know? Why
> > not find a "Holocaust-denier" and ask him?
> 
> We've seen this fatuous line of reasoning before, of course.
> 
> For example, here's what Raven posted to Usenet on April 20, 1994.
> This is really the best example;  there are many others but I won't
> bother with them.
> 
> He wrote:
> 
>    I am using a fairly generic definition of the word "Holocaust,"
>    which is "the murder of six million Jews as a central act of state
>    by the Nazis during the Second World War, many in gas chambers."
> 
> Fair enough so far.  That's a reasonable working definition.  When we
> say "Holocaust," we are talking about (1) a central act of state, which
> resulted in (2) the murder of six million Jews, many of whom were
> killed in (3) gas chambers.
> 
> Then, two sentences later, he wrote, totally straightfaced, as a
> statement of fact:
>    a) there is no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of
>    exterminating the Jews,

True. 

>    b) there is no evidence that there were homicidal gas chambers for
>    murder Jews,

True.

>    and c) the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration.

True.

> 
> His (a) denies (1);  his (b) denies (3);  his (c) denies (2).
> 
> Therefore, he is a Holocaust-denier.

Incorrect, there was no "Holocaust". You cannot deny something that just 
didn't happen. The tales of gassing, human soap factories & human soap, 
human hams fed to guard dogs, human skin lampshades, glass ground up and put 
in inmate's soup, vaporisation, steam chambers etc etc are IMHO, just 
propaganda fiction. It's just rubbish. 

Why waste time on this point Mr McCarthy? It doesn't impress anybody.

> Now, maybe Mr. Raven has some clever sidestepping in mind.  Perhaps he
> thinks that by pointing out that there's technically a difference
> between saying "there's no evidence for X" and "X didn't happen," he
> will escape the contradiction.  He's welcome to go ahead and say that;
> it will just help people realize the lengths to which he will go, in
> order to avoid the term "Holocaust-denier."

Yawn.

> Or, maybe he's just thinking, "now _that'll_ confuse them!"
> In any case, for Mr. Raven's sake, I rephrase the question.  What does
> he personally think of von Ribbentrop's testimony?
> He goes on to comment:

Greg>> By the way, rather than worrying about Ribbentrop, you should be 
spending  your time looking for a Nazi gas chamber. You have yet to find 
one, apparently,  

McCarthy> Well, there are five at Auschwitz, for starters.

There were no "gas chambers" at Auschwitz. You know full well that there was 
no gas chambers marked on the plans. 
YOU KNOW THIS! Don't kid people. 

McCarthy> But we've been over all this before.  Raven simply has no clue 
about what would constitute proof that a particular room was used or 
intended to be used to kill people with gas.
As Michael Shermer says, Could [any revisionist] please tell me what 
constitutes proof of homicidal gas chambers, short of a gas chamber with a 
large sign hanging on the wall that says: "Here we gas Jews to death."

He hasn't gotten an answer to that question, nor is he likely to,
because the core tenet of revisionism is dishonesty, and dishonest
hypocrisy about standards of proof is the first and most important
bylaw.

Well there's one at Dachau, and it's MARKED "Gas chamber". Want to pursue 
this further? Who marked the room gas chamber?  

> I repeat von Ribbentrop's testimony, with euphemisms substitured for
> the term "Holocaust-denier," and I offer the opportunity for
> discussion to _anyone_ who is interested, no matter which labels they
> prefer or shun.
> > At the International Nuremberg Trial, on April 2nd, 1946, von Ribbentrop
> > was on the stand.  Now, von Ribbentrop was anything but a friendly
> > witness.  He contradicted the defense time after time, insisting that he
> > had no recollection of events which they asked him about, claiming he
> > was not where they said he might have been, saying that he did not think
> > what they claimed was likely to be the truth, and so on.

Oh dear, this is so stunning . Ribbentrop "was anything but a friendly 
witness". 

Mr McCarthy, Ropes hurt. Especially when they tighten around your neck.....

McCarthy> I point this out because revisionists often claim that the Nazis 
on the stand were tortured or otherwise coerced into giving whatever
testimony the prosecution wanted.  Von Ribbentrop was quite obviously
 speaking his own mind, not someone else's!

This is just NOT true. I've seen no MAJOR revisionist claim that the Chief 
DEFENDENTS at Nuremberg were tortured, although IMHO, Streicher was beaten 
up and ill-treated.

> > (Examples of this are available -- I photocopied some -- but to save my
> > fingers some work, I won't type them in unless requested.)

Yawn.

> > However, here is an interesting admission that von Ribbentrop did make.
> > He was temporarily being interviewed by the President of the Tribunal
> > instead of the usual prosecuting attorney, for technical reasons:
> > 
> >    THE PRESIDENT:  [...]  What I wanted to ask you was this:  Are you
> >    suggesting that Schmidt, who drew up this memorandum, invented the
> >    last few sentences, beginning with the words:
> >    
> >       "If the Jews there did not want to work they would be shot.  If
> >       they could not work they would have to perish.  They had to be
> >       treated like tuberculosis bacilli with which a healthy body may
> >       become infected.  This was not cruel if one remembered that
> >       innocent creatures of nature, such as hares or deer, have to be
> >       killed so that no harm is caused by them.  Why should the beasts
> >       who wanted to bring us Bolshevism be shown more leniency? 
> >       Nations which did not rid themselves of Jews perished.  One of
> >       the most famous examples of this was the downfall of a people who
> >       once were so proud, the Persians, who now lead a pitiful
> >       existence as Armenians."
> >    
> >    Are you suggesting that Schmidt invented those sentences or imagined
> >    them?
> >    
> >    VON RIBBENTROP:  Mr. President, I should like to add that I myself
> >    was very grieved by these words of the Fuehrer, and I did not quite
> >    understand them.  But perhaps this attitude can be understood only
> >    if we remember that the Fuehrer believed that the Jews had caused
> >    this war, and that he had gradually developed a very fanatical
> >    hatred for them.
> >    
> >    I remember too that later on, after this conference, I discussed
> >    with the interpreter Schmidt and the two gentlemen the fact that
> >    this was the first time the Fuehrer had used expressions in
> >    connection with the Jewish problem which I could no longer
> >    understand.  These words were certainly not invented by Schmidt. 
> >    The Fuehrer did express himself in some such way at that time.
> >    That is true.

> > Here we have a Nazi witness to Hitler's words:  a witness who was
> > obviously not coerced into giving testimony favorable to the
> > prosecution.  A witness who was undergoing some cognitive dissonance
> > regarding his beloved Fuehrer.  A witness who was not answering with the
> > Hoess-style one-word confirmations which revisionists complain about,
> > but who was rather going into great detail.
> > This witness testified under oath that Hitler had stated this, or
> > words very like this:
> >    If the Jews there did not want to work they would be shot.  If they
> >    could not work they would have to perish.  They had to be treated
> >    like tuberculosis bacilli ... innocent creatures of nature, such as
> >    hares or deer, have to be killed so that no harm is caused by them. 
> >    Why should [the Jews] be shown more leniency?
> > 
> > How do revisionists explain this testimony?


McCarthy alludes to what? He doesn't say, He is certainly not forthcoming 
with details. 

This is supposed to be what Hitler said to Admiral Horthy (the Hungarian 
Leader) in 1944, re: deportations of jews. 

Refer to Hitlers War (1977) page 509 by David Irving, to see what [Paul] 
Schmidts (Hitlers Interpreter) said. See also the note on page 872.

Then refer to the latest edition (1991) of Hitlers war by David Irving. Go 
to page 542. Where it says :- 

Quote:- 

"Poland, said Hitler, should have been been an object lesson to Horthy. he 
related how jews who refused to work were shot; those who could not work 
just wasted away. Jews must be treated like tuberculosis bacilli, he said 
said, using his favourite analogy. Horthy apologized that he had done 
everything he had done all he decently could against the Jews. "But they can 
hardly be murdered or otherwise eliminated," he protested. Hitler reassured 
him: "There is no need for that." 

See also Irving's notes on the page on page 822.



Hitler's War and the War Path by David Irving is available from :- 

Focal Point Publications, 81 Duke Street, London, W1M 5DJ.
Cost 25 

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 07:19:41 PST 1995
Article: 16131 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!peer-news.britain.eu.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PART 1 : THAT L'EXPRESS ARTICLE
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:52:08 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 95
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Translated by Henry Ayre.

                    Auschwitz: la memoire du mal                 
                       
Fifty years ago on Saturday, January 27th, 1945, a detachment (1) of the 
60th Soviet Army penetrated the concentration camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau, 
in upper Silescia on the Oder River in Poland, less than 50 kilometers 
>from  Cracow. In the three camps which were liberated the soldiers of the 
Red Army (2) found only 7,000 inmates, for the most part sick or dying. In 
fleeing before the troops of Stalin, the Germans had taken with them a 
great number, a large majority, of those prisoners "able to work." (3)

This evacuation of the camps had suddenly accelerated in mid-month (two 
weeks before): the Red Army had just launched sooner than expected its 
offensive on the Vistula River. The Nazis, under the severe press of 
circumstances, decided to abandon the three camps. Between the 17th and 
the 21st of January, 1945, 56,000 camp inmates left the camp on foot in 
the snow and ice. These "death marches" claimed in several days thousands 
of victims who fell of fatigue or cold, or by the bullets of their guards 
who were panicky because of their retreat.

On arriving, the Soviets found the remains of buildings never before heard 
of in the history of humanity: the crematoria furnished with gas chambers 
that the German sappers had dynamited the 20th of January. (4) Listening 
to those still alive at the camps, the Soviets (officers?) discovered the 
method of functioning and finality of a machinery designed for mass 
murder. (5) 

Auschwitz was not the only Nazi extermination camp. However, it was the 
largest and claimed the most victims. And it is today the most well-known. 
In distinction to the other extermination camps (Treblinka, Chelmo, 
Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec) of which there are very few witnesses (6), 
Auschwitz, because it was both a work camp and a concentration camp, left 
more survivors, and thus more memories. About one million persons were 
assassinated in Auschwitz-Birkenau, of which 90% were Jews.

Since the end of WWII, the significance of this historically unique 
happening, for a long time under-estimated in the West and falsified in 
the East, has continued to grow. The photographs and depictions of rail 
lines coming from all of Europe to end abruptly before the depot at 
Birkenau have become universally recognized, and brand the 20th century 
forever.

This is winter work. Protected from the cold and snow in the old laundry 
now transformed into a workshop, seven carpenters busy themselves around a 
large wooden door, blackened with age, resting on sawhorses. All except 
one carefully pull out all the nails of the door. On each of the panels 
and parts of the door, now a separate piece, they place a little numbered 
tin label. Then they store, side by side in the back of the workshop, 
nearly a hundred other pieces--boards, beams, trim--all belonging to 
Barracks B 153, being one of the twenty last prefabricated German Army 
barracks, 125 feet long and made of pine, still standing on the area of 
the old "quarantine camp," put up from 1941 onward at Birkenau and 
intended only for temporary use. (7)

It was autumn when the present workmen slowly dismantled Barrack B 153 
after having numbered all its separate parts and having photographed it 
>from  all angles. These hundreds of photos are placed in a file cabinet. 
Another file cabinet contains dozens of drawings and videocassettes 
illustrating the steps of the process of dismantling the barrack. The 
third filing cabinet is devoted to the classification of the barrack parts 
by color, noting the parts still in good shape, others rotten and in need 
of replacement by new pine wood. A fourth fiel cabinet stands ready to 
hold the photos of the photographs taken while the barrack is rebuilt in 
the Springtime.

The appearance of all these thick files is one of complete order and 
neatness. Witold Smrek takes care of them personally. "Absolutely 
everything that we do is immediately recorded and filed!" As Head of the 
Museum of Auschwitz-Birkenau, this 40 year-old engineer supervises all of 
the work of upkeep and restoration of both Auschwitz I (about 50 acres) 
and Birkenau (about 422 acres). His men are going to spend six months 
restoring Barrack B 153 to prevent its complete decay. Four other 
barracks, several observation posts, and dozens of bed frames have already 
been restored according to these new rules of strict recording. To prevent 
any of the original pine from succombing to the slow rot which permeates 
most pieces, the workman have up to the present time soaked each restored 
piece in a bath of insecticide. However, Witold Smerk has just received 
free from the German government an enormous Danish machine normally 
costing about $135,000. "It is a very large cylinder made expressly for 
impregnating wood under pressure. It will let us treat several dozen 
boards at once, guaranteeing that they will last for thirty years."





Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 07:19:41 PST 1995
Article: 16132 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PART 3 THAT L'EXPRESS ARTICLE
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:58:01 GMT
Organization: None
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	This historic lie had to stop immediately. But it was only when 
the old plaque was taken down that the members of the Committee realized 
that they didn't agree on the number of victims to have inscribed on the 
new plaque. According to the most serious estimates--those of Raul 
Hilberg, Franciszek Piper, and Jean-Claude Pressac--from 800,000 to 1.2 
million persons had been assassinated at Auschwitz, of which 650,000 to 1 
million were Jews. These differences are due to the difficulty to 
establish the number of Polish and Hungarian victims, while those of the 
western European Jews is well known, largely due to the work of Serge 
Klarsfeld.

	The discussion was tense. The logical solution was to accept the 
estimate of 1.1 million victims--of which 960,000 Jews--established by the 
Department of History of the Museum after ten years of work by Franciszek 
Piper. Or, perhaps, not to mention a figure at all as proposed the Museum. 
Serge Klarsfeld suggested not mentioning the overal number of victims, 
after all unknown, but to give the fullest information about the 
geographic origins of victims, country by country, giving where known the 
number in each case, as well as the high-low estimations of victims from 
Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary. Stefan Wilkanowicz, as concilliator, 
proposed the phrase "more than 1 million." Lacking an agreement in 
committee, the problem was settled at the office of the Polish President 
as simply "1.5 million." (16) There wasn't any necessity to make more 
explicit the preponderance of Jewish dead since the text read, "That this 
place where the Nazis have assassinated a million and a half men, women, 
and children, mostly Jews of many different countries of Europe, be 
forever a cry of despair and a warning to humanity."

	This new wording, more in keeping with historic reality, also 
translated into more emphasis given to Birkenau. "In several years we hope 
to make this place (Birkenau) the main place for all visits to the camp, 
whereas for a long time and up to present most visitors who were not 
encouraged never got to Birkenau, only 2 miles away," stated Teresa 
Swiebocka, in charge of expositions and responsable to the Museum board. 
Shocked by the near total public ignorance about Birkenau, an organization 
of Canadian Jews took it upon themselves in 1991 to fund a bus which now 
makes round trips between Auschwitz and Birkenau. The arrival of this bus 
was the first clear sign of the foreign intervention in camp management 
with which Poland is now condemned jointly to run the camp. (17) Then came 
the Estee Lauder Foundation.

	Ronald Lauder, businessman and former U.S. Ambassador to Austria, 
is the director of this wealthy Philadelphia institution which has taken 
upon itself the job of maintaining the cemetaries and synagogues of 
eastern Europe. His complacency vanished when he discovered the abandonned 
condition of Birkenau. Calling on his skills as a diplomat, he discussed 
the situation with Polish officials. They explained to him that they had 
done what they could given their reduced financial abilities. Lauder 
decided to provide more than sufficient funds to the Polish officials 
because he saw it as a basic necessity. The estimate for basic and urgent 
repairs he had commissioned a group of American experts from the 
Metropolitan Museum to make for him on the site in 1993 came to 230 
million French francs. The wealthy American philanthropist had a clever 
idea: ask for financial contributions from all the countries from which 
Jews were deported to Auschwitz. He sought for an official mandate of 
recognition and permission to do this from the International Auschwitz 
Committee which gave it to him willingly. The Committee itself had always 
before refused to appeal for foreign help by principle, but was not 
adverse that someone else make such an appeal for them... The "Lauder 
Effect" is startling. Germany, which had never done anything for 
Auschwitz, paid willingly, but preferred to do so directly to the Museum. 
(18) "They didn't decide what work was going to be done, we let them know 
what was planned and the exact cost estimated and they chose what they 
would fund," explained Krystyna Oleksy, Vice-Director of the Museum. These 
discussions took place usually with the German Consul to Poland at Krakow. 
By the terms of an agreement signed in November, 1944, the Federal 
Republic of Germany has promised 10 million Deutschemarks. In Lower 
Saxony, at their own initiative, the landed estates, not wishing to be 
left out of the effort, united to engage themselves for an equal amount. 
They had already taken upon themselves the work of restoring the "central 
sauna." And the German radio station Norddeutscher Rundfunk organized a 
telethon "against forgetting" and collected from the public two million 
marks. The other countries contributed through the Lauder Foundation. 
Greece responded to the call with a half million dollars, the same as the 
Netherlands and Belgium. Also contributing were Spain, Japan, and Great 
Britain which were not sollicited. Last October, Edouard Balladur decided 
that France would contribute 10 million French francs to this 
international collection. Austria has not given an answer. (19)

Translated by Henry Ayre.


	Now that, for the first time, generous financing--more than half 
coming from Germany--is allocated to the preservation of Auschwitz, 
suddenly money is not the main priority. The ability finally to consider 
what to do with these cursed ruins, held frozen for so long by the 
communists, has given rise to a number of proposals, all contradictory to 
each other, which were never thought of a few years ago. Some of these 
ideas even question work projects already begun. Embarrassed by this 
dissension, the International Committee and the Museum organized, in 
August 1993, a discussion meeting of historians, religious figures, 
philosophers, and technicians: "The Future of Auschwitz: Conserve the 
Ruins?" Far from clarifying the situation, the meeting resulted in a 
dizzying display of wide differences. "The most surprising thing was to 
note that people at the same level, former inmates, university professors, 
or religious people, could express positions that were so totally 
opposed," remarked Stefan Wilkanowicz.	
	Jonathan Webber, professor of Hebrew studies at Oxford, recalled 
that before attending the meeting he had asked the advice of a British 
rabbi he knew who responded, "Let's let this evil place simply decay!" 
James Young, historian and professor of Jewish studies a the University of 
Massachusetts, suggested that the preservation of the specimens in the 
setting of the camp itself--which one would let slowly decay--would permit 
visitors to "see at the smae time that which was and the time which has 
passed since then." Ketlef Hoffman, professor of the History of Art at the 
Institute of Sciences of the Culture of Essen, believed that "this passage 
of time and natural change, ordinarily depended upon to assuage and lessen 
to hurt to all those people so injured, isn't imaginable with respect to 
Auschwitz. Because of the unique crime of the Nazis it is necessary to 
preserve the ruins, and Germany must help financially in this." Some 
attedning the meeting proposed to limit the ravages of time by any means 
possible, for example, in covering the ruins of the crematoria by a sort 
of plexiglas dome. Others at the meeting envisaged something much more, to 
reconstruct the entire camp. Several suggested projects concerned the huge 
central sauna (in the process of restauration) where those inmates, not 
immediately gassed at their arrival but rather selected for work, were 
shaved, showered, and tatooed. Some people wished to see this place, where 
the inmates lost their own personality, become a memorial in which a voice 
would recite, in perpetuity, the names of known victims. Some people 
wanted to place in the huge sauna the personal objects taken from the 
inmates. Others yet, advised that the place should be left empty for all 
eternity. Someone had even come up with the idea to dig a trench in the 
burying grounds where the bodies of victims were burned when the 
crematoria couldn't keep up with the supply of corpses, or were 
temporarily out of service, as during the great gassing of Hungarian Jews 
in May and June, 1944. The gallery adjacent to this trench would be 
equipped with a large glass wall in order that spectators could see the 
depth of the ashes. (20) According to Yaffa Ehach, professor of Jewish 
Studies at Brooklyn, several railroad cars of that time used to transport 
inmates should be placed on the rails at Birkenau. There is also the 
project of Serge Klarsfeld to rebuild the old arrival ramp which was, just 
until May, 1944, outside of Birkenau before the rail line was extended 
into the camp. However, in the interior of the camp he would prefer that 
one would "allow these material traces to decay because their fate is tied 
to that of the generation which had known the victims." For Jean-Claude 
Pressac it would be necessary to reconstruct in place the old Crematorium 
III, a very large building which tied in a homicidal gas chamber with 
crematorium furnaces... "In order that the visitors can see in their own 
minds the concrete reality of a machine of mass murder, which viewing the 
ruins does not allow." (21) Serge Klarsfeld isn't opposed to such a 
reconstruction on condition that it is done outside of the camp. (22) Theo 
Klein, on the other hand, doesn't see the utility of this proposal. "All 
that is contrary to Jewish tradition: the memory of the dead must serve 
the living." David Cesarini, director of the Wiener Library of London 
which is devoted to holocaust topics, expressed the general disarray felt 
by the participants of the meeting in saying, "We cannot take the risk of 
arousing new accusations of falsification. We cannot, on the other hand, 
allow the ravages of time and nature obliterate the place. The future of 
Auschwitz-Birkenau requires a great international debate, we all of us are 
touched and concerned by this place."(23) 

	One question, in particular, grew to the point of obsession: What 
to do with all the hair, the hair of the victims? When the camp was 
liberated by the Soviets they found seven tonnes of hair not yet sent to 
Germany for use. This seven tonnes of hair then disappeared. At the time 
of the creation of the camp (after the war) the Polish found 2.5 tonnes of 
hair originating from Auschwitz in a respinning factory at Kietz. They had 
put on exhibit the largest part (of this 2.5 tonnes) in the museum, piled 
behind an immense plate glass... as proof of barbarism. (24) But then, in 
the last few years, several voices were raised denouncing this 
"sacrilege." No one before had objected to the display but now this 
concern was taken seriously. Was it necessary to display this mound of 
hair to a half million visitors who passed by each year? Perhaps keep this 
hair but not exhibit it? Perhaps bury it all? From that point on, the 
debate has done nothing but grow more intense. "Who owns this hair?" asked 
Wladyslaw Bartoszewski. Apparently it is not the property of the Polish 
government. For Jonathan Webber, "They (the hairs) are a part of the 
mortal remains (of the victims) and must be entombed." Thio Klein share 
the thought, "I don't like museums of horrors but people perhaps have need 
of something like that in order to understand what happened. I think a 
small symbolic amount of the hair should be kept (and displayed) and the 
rest should be buried at the same place in a ceremony that isn't a 
theatrical production." (25)

	Today yet this mound of hairs still haunts Auschwitz. "When we 
loaned objects for foreign exhibitions there was always a small amount of 
hair. No we no longer do that," explained Teresa Swiebocka. And Witold 
Smrek no longer dares to touch the hair. "In order to preserve the hair it 
was regularly chemically treated against mites, dusted, washed, and closed 
in very large sacks. This treatment has saved the hair but also caused its 
degradation since it has become grey and brittle. Now all treatment is 
stopped while waiting to find out what we must do."	

	Another delicate subject: What to do with the falsifications 
created by the former communist caretakers and left in place? In the 1950s 
and 1960s several buildings, which had disappeared or had been converted 
to other use, had been reconstructed with gross errors and had been 
presented to the public as authentic. (26) Certain of these buildings, 
having an appearance much to new, have been closed to the public. Then 
there are also the delousing chambers (which used Zyklon B to kill lice) 
which have sometimes been shown as homicidal gas chambers. These 
aberrations and errors have very much served the revisionist arguments 
which have drawn from them the basis of their work of fiction. (27) The 
example of Krema I, the only one of Auschwitz I, is significant. In its 
morgue was installed the first homicidal gas chamber. It was used only a 
short while at the beginning of 1942: the difficulty of isolating the 
area, necessary for the gassings, disturbed the activity of the camp. (28) 
It was thus decided, at the end of April, 1942, to transfer these 
homicidal gassings to Birkenau where they were done, principally with 
Jewish victims, on an industrial scale. (29) Krema I at Auschwitz was then 
transformed into a bomb shelter and surgical operating room. In 1948 at 
the time of the creation of the Auschwitz museum Krema I was refitted to 
its supposed original state (with gas chamber). Everything there is false, 
(30) the dimensions of the gas chamber, the placement of the doors, the 
openings to pour in the Zyklon B, the ovens (rebuilt on the basis of the 
memory of several of the survivors), the height of the chimney. In the 
late 1970s author Robert Faurisson exploited these errors all the more 
that the directors of the museum were reluctant to recognize them as 
errors. A revisionist (David Cole?) recently shot a video in this gas 
chamber, still represented as authentic, and spoke there to visitors about 
his "revelations." Jean-Claude Pressac, one of the first to establish the 
exact history of this gas chamber and its modifications during and after 
the war, proposes to restore the gas chamber to its state during its use 
in 1942, in accepting as true and accurate the German architectural plans 
that he has just discovered in Soviet archives. (31) Others, like Thio 
Klein, prefer to leave it in its present state while explaining to the 
public the travesty. "History is as it is--it's necessary to say 
that--even when it isn't simple, rather than to add artifice to the 
artificial." Krystena Oleksy, of the director's office which is in the old 
SS hospital giving directly on the Krema I, can't make up her mind. "For 
the moment we will leave it (the gas chamber) as it is and not say 
anything to the visitors. It is all too complicated. We will decide later. 
(32)

	"How to decide on these matters when the difference of opinion is 
so extreme? When these differences are all legitimate and of good faith? 
(33) In such matters a near-consensus is necessary. Since it doesn't exist 
it is better not to take any decision. It's necessary to wait and to 
continue to discuss these matters," believes Stefan Wilkanowicz who, 
during his long years in opposition to the majority viewpoint, has learned 
to be patient. This explains the lack of concrete choices. Other than 
changing the commemorative plaque at Birkenau and the new attentiveness 
(to accuracy) taken in the restorations, the only orientation already 
noticeable is the emphasis on Birkenau, which progressively takes on the 
sacred atmosphere of a cemetery. For the past several weeks large panels 
bearing numerous photographs have been put up in key places to help bring 
to visitors what had happened there. This operation is financed by the 
German goverment (400,000 marks). Once the moral debate had been resolved 
that the only existing photographs had been taken by the SS (34), it was 
decided to place each photo on a block of black granite. The great number 
of these stones placed on the ground gave to Birkenau the aspect of a 
graveyard. This aspect was heightened by other blocks of granite placed on 
the sites of burning trenches and also by others still in the part of the 
camp called "Mexico" of which nothing remains and where many Hungarian 
women died of exposure. "This is what should be emphasized," declared 
Detlef Hoffmann, "the right for Birkenau to be a cemetary, a place of 
silence and prayer."

	Teresa Swiebocka supports this point of view. "We are moved, from 
now on, according to the nature of the place. Birkenau is the largest 
cemetary in the world. On "dizaines d'hectares," probably no more than 75 
acres, the earth is inextricably mixed with the ashes of hundreds of 
thousands of people." (35) The museum has recently taken measures to 
protect this vast area of the dead. A security building has been 
installed, surveillance doubled, and a guard post placed at the far end of 
Birkenau towards the Central Sauna by the birch trees and the old burning 
trenches. These measures have been taken to dissuade the treasure hunters 
who come to the area occasionally, sometimes equipped with metal detectors 
as happened in 1994, and who follow the same practice as certain Poles 
who, after the war, searched through macabre burying sites looking for 
small items made of gold. This vigilance will also prevent finding people 
on the area who are picking mushrooms, as was the case shortly ago.

	The slow movement toward a sacred silence has already provoked 
other questions. For some time the committee directing the museum has 
received special requests. Some Jews ask to be buried at Birkenau. Some 
explain that the area is the tomb of a part of their family. Once again 
problems and differences. "We reply to them that this isn't possible, but 
that there is a Jewish cemetary in the town of Auschwitz," explains Teresa 
Swiebocka. She thinks, however, that with the agreement of the 
International Committee a small cemetary could be created near the common 
grave where hundreds of dead were buried who were found at the time of the 
liberation of the camp. Stefan Wilkanowicz would personally favour such a 
move but only for the benefit of former inmates of Auschwitz. "A plot of 
ground could be bought on the edge of the camp. We will talk about it." 
Thio Klein doesn't agree. "This would be without end. The children of the 
children would want, at their turn, to be buried there. The story of this 
place is completed. It is not necessary to continue the life of this 
place. It is a place that is finished." (36)


-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 07:19:42 PST 1995
Article: 16133 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PART 4 THAT L'EXPRESS ARTICLE - NOTES
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:00:42 GMT
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                                 NOTES

(1) The question must be asked if this was the first Soviet unit to reach 
the camp.

(2) It is unfortunate that the author makes no mention of the details of 
counting these 7000 inmates.

(3) This leads the reader to assume that most of the camp inmates were 
able to travel with the German army in a field retreat.

(4) Unfortunately, we are asked to take the word of the Soviets for this. 
The nearby villagers place the explosions after the German Army left the 
area.

(5) Once again, it is the Soviets themselves, bitter enemies of the 
Germans, who provide this information. 

(6) For a balancing viewpoint on other German concentration camps read and 
view "Air Photo Evidence" by John C. Ball.

(7) Here the reader may ask why try to save what was not intended to last.

(8) "Qui ne cesse de bouger." This is one of many French exaggerations to 
emphasize a point during a conversation. However, in this case the author 
could have used nearly any other choice of words that would have 
embarrassed less the claim of burning trenches. If the ground was swampy 
and quivered, the water table was close to the surface, thus making 
burning trenches an impossibility!

(9) It is not impossible, not even improbable that the Soviets themselves 
blew up these buildings. Molecular testing of the concrete might determine 
what kind of explosive was used and thus who likely was responsible.

(10) The historic value of this work, then, is entirely in the hands of 
those determining what work was done.

(11) This suggests that the Germans were pinched for both materials and 
labor and that they had to use both carefully.

(12) The exact origin of these shoes, so carefully preserved, has not, 
however, been clearly stated.

(13) In all ages and within all large societies certain groups have 
reverenced inanimate objects. Although religion is a part of history it is 
not a substitute thereof.

(14) This vote should not be confused, however, with a historical 
analysis.

(15) At the least, it is disconcerting to have such large numbers of 
deaths decided on the basis of a bronze plaque.

(16) It seems obvious, then, that this figure is a very loose 
approximation.

(17) This "foreign intervention" in camp management suggests that present 
interpretations and innovations of past happenings may be seamlessly added 
to history.

(18) The German government perhaps felt more secure this way.

(19) Austrians, a Germanic people but not the "enemy," seem anxious to 
steer clear of the entire effort.

(20) Unfortunately, in the absense of chemical and microscopic analysis, 
nearly any grey substance could be used to represent such ashes to the 
visitors.

(21) Jean-Claude Pressac, having written a book unequivocally declaring 
the homicidal gas chambers to be reality yet finding no such reality in 
the physical evidence, now apparently wishes to make good this discrepancy 
by constructing history!

(22) Launching immediately into such passionate differences of opinion 
tends to obscure the fact that either construction would be artificial if 
not false.

(23) Once again, a great debate does not necessarily improve the quality 
of knowledge about the reality of the past happenings, often just the 
opposite.

(24) Several questions must be asked. How did the Polish know the hair 
came from Auschwitz? What happened to the 7 tonnes of hair from Auschwitz 
that disappeared? This is a little too much like a shell game to make the 
reader feel comfortable about the reality of the exhibit.

(25) It could be asked by the reader if Thio Klein objected to the 
Hollywood treatment of Auschwitz?

(26) Here the author opens a veritable Pandora's box of questions and 
doubts. The visitor apparently must ask himself or herself, what part of 
the exhibits can be taken as real and what part as belonging to a film 
production.

(27) One can hardly blame doubtful historians from noticing the 
fabrication of false historical artifacts.

(28) For an explanation see Note 6.

(29) Air photo evidence of this, however, is lacking. See Note 6.

(30) "Tout y est faux." It is difficult to imagine a French author, 
writing on a serious subject, using this phraseology which has great 
emotional finality in the French language if he did not wish to inject in 
his piece a tone of doubt. 

(31) Once again we are asked uncritically to accept evidence coming first 
through Soviet channels then through the hands of M. Pressac. How and by 
whom have these architectural plans been vetted?

(32) One must admire the reportorial honesty of the author, all in 
questioning his complete acceptance of the subject matter. Here we learn 
that visitors are still shown false artifacts, known by the Museum 
directors to be false, and are told that they are real and true. Could he 
not have left this detail out of his article?

(33) Once again the reader is led to conclude that this history is created 
by the decisions of the exhibitors.

(34) Note, however, that the art of photo montage and creation is very 
advanced. That we are told the photos come from the SS, then putting them 
on black granite blocks, tends to obscure the fact that they might be 
later creations.

(35) This suggests that it is impossible to ascertain any more about the 
subject, and that, the area being sacred, it would be sacrilegious to do 
so in any case. Thus, we must accept the statement on faith.

(36) "C'est un lieu fini." Once again the author's choice of words in all 
the richness of the French language for this final phrase of the article 
is puzzling. One is left asking if he feels the area is finished because 
of its macabre nature or its less than perfect documentation and 
authenticity.





Thanks to Henry Ayre for his translation and notes.

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 07:19:43 PST 1995
Article: 16134 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IRVING INDICTED
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:16:16 GMT
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The Indictment


In translation, the fresh indictment of Historian David Irving by the 
Mannheim District Court (case ref:(4) 5KLs 7/95), dated July 6, 1995, reads:

Criminal case against David Irving for incitement for race hatred etc.

"Dear Mr Irving,
The Mannheim Prosecutor has charged you by indictment dated May 19, 1995 
with Incitement to race hatred, Libel,and Defamation of the memory of the 
dead. The basis for this charge is a lecture which you delivered on 
September 2,1990 in the Engelbrecht House at Weinheim on the Hergstrasse, in 
the course of which it is alleged that you made the following remarks

- There were no gassings at Auschwitz;

- The Fuhrer knew nothing of gassings, nor could he, because there were 
none;

- There were never any Gas chambers in Auschwitz;

- In Auschwitz less than 70,000 Jews died from epidemics and the like;

- There is now a gigantic Holocaust industry;

- The gas chambers shown to tourists are dummies built by the Poles 
post-war;

- The German tax payers have had to pay around l 6 billion Deuuchmarks as a 
punishment for Auschwitz, for a dummy.

- As the assistance of a defense attorney is mandatory in the first instance 
at assize courts, I ask you to inform me within two weeks whether you will 
be appointing an attorney authorised in the Federal Republic of Germany to 
handle your defence, or which authorised attorney is to be assigned by the 
court to you as a defence attorney. If such information is not received here 
within the appointed time, the court will appoint an attorney of its own 
choosing to defend you.

 Yours faithfully,

The President, Nusselt, Presiding Judge at Assize Court."



-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 07:19:44 PST 1995
Article: 16136 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PART 2 THAT L'EXPRESS ARTICLE
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:54:37 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 159
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Translated by Henry Ayre.


Witold Smrek insists on his personal professional responsibility. "I must 
maintain in good shape all these buildings of poor quality, only put up  
to be temporary fifty years ago on an old swamp where the soil never stops 
quivering! (8) But specialists in bad concrete work don't now exist! Nor 
in poor quality brick which chips and spalls. Sometimes we don't know what 
to do about it all!" Witold Smrek hardly ceases to talk about his worries 
that pursue him daily: how can he accomplish conscientiously work that is 
often impossible? When brick chimneys lined up as far as the eye can 
see--being the last remains of some vanished barracks--threaten to fall 
down themselves he fills them with concrete and reinforcing bars to anchor 
them to the ground. Anyhow, half of these chimneys have been rebuilt in 
the 1960's. When the rolls of barbed wire variously placed rust out 
completely Smrek has no scruples about replacing them with brand new 
barbed wire... the 90 miles of such wire have already been totally 
replaced three times since World War II! But what to do about the curved 
concrete posts hold some of the wire since they now begin to split and 
become dangerous? The same question about the brick walls less than 5 
inches thick of the block houses of Birkenau which are tumbling down 
because of the weight of the heavy roofs? Same question concerning the 
remnants of reinforced concrete of the gas chambers of the crematories II 
and III which the Nazis dynamited January 20th, 1945, which remnants 
crack, split, and spall a bit more each year? (9)

Witold Smrek would like someone to tell him what to do, since it is no 
longer a question now of reconstructing it all as those before him did. 
Meanwhile, for five years he has done as he has been instructed and has 
directed his 15 workmen and foremen, even though it means working on 
buildings the authenticity of which is already in question, like these 
last barracks of Birkenau. The Nazis had put up more than 200 of them. 
They took down several dozen in 1944 before evacuating the camp, and 
burned many others. (10) Then after the war the Poles came and took away 
more than a hundred barracks for the homeless people of Warsaw. 
Furthermore, the inhabitants of the nearby town of Auschwitz came into the 
camp from 1945 to 1947 when it was abandonned to carry away piecemeal some 
of the barracks for stovewood. In 1952 there were only 38 barracks left, 
with only enough usable wood and parts among them to reconstruct 20 nearly 
complete barracks. These rebuilt barracks were then regularly re-rebuilt, 
finally being on concrete decks that didn't exist originally... they had 
been simply built on packed earth. (11) What pieces and parts of these 
remaining buildings still date from 1945? "At least 60%," declares Witold 
Smrek, annoyed by the growing number of critics of the forty years of 
maintenance and reconstruction of Auschwitz. He doesn't feel the criticism 
is just... yet. He has no part in such sentiments. For this reason he 
oversees with an attention nearly maniacal every step of work taken by his 
workmen. No one can accuse him of doing things wrong. Everything is there 
in the dozens of folders in the large office he occupies in the center of 
an old Inmate Block of Auschwitz I.

His attitude of conservation extends to "objects" in the parlance of 
museums. These include luggage and valises, shoes, plates and eating 
equipment, eyeglasses, artificial limbs, combs, etc. These were discovered 
(by the Soviets) by the tens of thousands in the storage buildings of the 
camp in 1945, and were the personal effects of the last Jews assassinated 
which had been carefully gathered together in order to send them to 
Germany to be "recycled." A portion of these objects are in the museum 
deteriorating behind large glass panels for the past 50 years in unheated 
quarters formerly occupied by inmates. With the aid of a cash grant of 
about $5 million from the German government, a Dresden firm has designed a 
system of heating and climatization for these objects. And since Witold 
Smrek has been in charge the employees of the museum have paid more 
attention to the maintenance of the objects as for example, the 43,500 
pairs of shoes. Before Witold Smrek, the shoes were brushed (12) 
periodically on a rotary brush with sawdust moistened with lanoline to 
dust and oil them. As a consequence, they had taken on a uniform color and 
a number of shoes had been destroyed by this treatment which is now no 
longer used. The museum now has help from dozens of young Germans, members 
of "Operation Repentence," who freely give their help periodically to do a 
good deed. Witold Smrek has them clean these tragic shoes one by one by 
hand. The students of the school of restoration of Cologne have taken upon 
themselves the cleaning of the valises. (13)

All these precautions, all this care to do things correctly and not be 
accused of falsifying the record, illustrate the recent efforts of the 
Polish authorities to deliver the former extermination camp from 40 years 
of communist administration which had altered it just to the point of 
denying its significance. After the fall of the Iron Curtain the 
caretakers of the camp had to cope with the sudden increase in foreign 
visitors, of which many were shocked by what they saw and protested. There 
were many criticism, suggestions and protests. The affair of the Carmel of 
Auschwitz sparked the new Polish directors to make changes rapidly. The 
man responsible for this diplomatic mission was Stefan Wilkanowicz, 
director of the Catholic magazine "Znak," an influential publication of 
the former Catholic opposition. Prime Minister Tadeusz Mazowiecki had 
named this acquaintance as mediator in the Carmel affair. Less a puppet 
than he seemed, this man of sixty played an essential role in the company 
of the Frenchman Thio Klein in the resolution of a conflict that had drawn 
much attention to the administration of the area. Tadeusz Mazowiecki then 
asked him to take charge of the entirety of Auschwitz and to bring into 
the task the several associations of former camp inmates. Thus was born, 
in 1990, the International Committee of the Museum of the State of 
Auschwitz comprising 26 members of many nationalities, of which Israel 
Gutman of the memorial Yad Vashem of Jerusalem and Thio Klein, former 
president of Crif, the council representing the Jewish organisations of 
France. The presidency of this new organization was given to Wladyslaw 
Bartoszewski, a reknown figure, historian of Judaism, a resistance 
fighter, survivor of Auschwitz and now Polish Ambassador to Austria. An 
able vice president was chosen: Stefan Wilkanowicz. Officially charged 
with advising both the director of the Museum and the (Polish) Minister of 
Culture (the camp fell under his juridiction), this committee was to 
become suddenly, and for the first time since the end of the war, the 
scene of a new debate, what to do with Auschwitz?
	
	"The vote was unanimous (14) to finish discussing the 
nationalist-communist aspect of the site, and for the idea that the (act 
of the) genocide of the Jews would have finally a central place, the 
memory of Auschwitz. However, there were profound disagreements concerning 
just how the changes to the camp were to be made," remembers Stefan 
Wilkanowicz. Five years later disagreements remained. "The largest 
problems have been fixed, but the main discussions continue on and nothing 
has been decided. I can even say that the basic arguments, painful and 
sometimes unexpected, have only just begun!"

	The International Committee, however, had been obliged only a few 
weeks ago to put an end to the five year-old controversy. It had just 
replaced, for the upcoming ceremonies marking the camp's 50th anniversary, 
with a new commemorative plaque at Birkenau (now in twenty languages), the 
old one it had removed in 1990. This old plaque had been the most visible 
and troubling sign of the communist control over the site. One was able to 
read there, "Here, from 1940 to 1945, four million men, women, and 
children were tortured and assassinated (15) by Hitler's murderers." Not 
only was the number very greatly in error, but the text of the plaque made 
no mention that 90% of the victims were Jewish. At the time of the 
inauguration ceremony for this "international monument to the memory of 
the victims of fascism" on the 16th of April, 1967, in three hours of 
speeches (among the orators, the Polish Prime Minister and the Soviet 
liberator of the camp) they managed the prodigious feat of not pronouncing 
one single time the word "Jew."

	During several decades, this negation of the genocide of Jews was 
one of the constants of the Stalinist administration. The Poles and 
Soviets made of Auschwitz above all a Polish and anti-fascist place of 
suffering. Because of that viewpoint then, Auschwitz I was emphasized as 
the place where 75,000 Poles, hostages and resistance fighters, were 
imprisoned and executed, and the enormous complex of Birkenau, site of the 
extermination of the mass of Jews of Poland and of Europe, was neglected. 
Apart from the monument in honor of 15,000 Soviet soldiers who were 
assassinated, the largest part of the museum of Auschwitz I was devoted to 
national displays--a Jewish display simply one of many--of which some 
extolled the benefits of communism, such as the Bulgarian display (even 
though there had been no Bulgarians at Auschwitz). The Museum had just 
taken the liberty of closing the Bulgarian display (officially for 
security reasons). The Soviet display, now abandonned, also praised 
communism and vaunted the power of the Red Army.





Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 18:25:54 PST 1995
Article: 16184 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news.mr.net!mr.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!EU.net!peer-news.britain.eu.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CREDAT JUDAEUS APELLA
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 22:45:35 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <481068402wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <48d89n$t20@zippy.cais.net> <49kn9p$9ir@zippy.cais.net> <49l890$717@access5.digex.net> <663790673wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <49vd72$pi7@access5.digex.net>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Dec 07, 1995 22.45.35
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X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Fri, 8 Dec 95 1:38:46 GMT]

In article: <49vd72$pi7@access5.digex.net>  mstein@access5.digex.net 
> In article <663790673wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> Jeff   wrote:
> > There were no "gas chambers at Auschwitz II". 
> >Gas chamber propagandists claim morgues were used as "gas chambers". 
> >There was no buildings built as "gas chambers", unless we count delousing 
> >chambers.
> 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> Would you please then explain why Bischoff wrote a letter to Kammler 
> talking about a "Vergasungskeller?"  If you theorize that it was something 
> else, could you please produce some evidence to support the theory, rather 
> than making a naked "because I say so" assertion? 

The point here is, afaik, it is a fact that there were no purpose-built 
gaschambers marked on the plans, shows that there was no "gas chambers" 
built.  
Unless of course the plans with the room marked "morgue" was a codeword for 
"gaschamber" or "gassing cellar", or whatsoever because no "codebook" has 
ever been found. Perhaps the planners were told "verbally" that it was 
"really" an "gas chamber".  

The plans [as I recall] of Crematoria No 2 indicate no such room as an 
"Vergasungskeller". Two morgues ["LiechenKeller"] are indicated. 

It is a part of the "Holocaust" propaganda that "morgues" were not used as 
"morgues" but as "execution gas chambers". 
Various Holocaust claims involve a a dual "function". We are told that 
morgues were used as morgues in some cases, and as "execution gas chambers" 
in others. A delousing agent Zyclon B is used to "exterminate Jews", in some 
concentration camps, and in it's real function in other places. We are told 
that documents contain "coded" statements such as "in readiness for 
transport", " seperately quartered" etc which "really mean" that the persons 
referred to are to be/or are gassed. We are told by Mr Morris that the 
Crematoria at Birkenau "really" operated  in the function of "incinerators", 
later, Mr Morris, claimed it was the in the function of "blast furnaces". 
And yet despite the claim that the Crematoria were "really designed" to 
dispose of hundreds of thousands of bodies of exterminated jews, they failed 
to cope, and the hundreds of thousands of corpses had to be burnt in open 
pits. The pits of course weren't working on the days Allied recce aircraft 
took photos. But they were "really" operating on the other days.  
And of course the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" which was  
"really" the "total extermination of the Jews". 

Credat Judaeus Apella.

The word "vergasungskeller" appears in a letter (1) that Sturmbannfuhrer 
Karl Bischoff of the Auschwitz building dept is alleged to have written to 
SS Gruppenfuhrer Heinz Kammler. Kammler was "the senior works engineer of 
the SS". Later, Heinz Kammler was responsible for among other things 
V-weapons, underground aircraft factories, etc. 
Reitlinger in his book (2) claims that "Kammler was one of the first people 
to be trusted with the secrets of the Final Solution."
Athough he doesn't KNOW this. Typically, it is an assumption, based 
apprently on the fact that Kammler wrote letters concerning crematoria.  

Afaik there is no reference to a "vergasungskeller" in the plans to 
Crematoria No 2 at Birkenau (Auschwitz II). And I am sure that Mr Stein will 
confirm this. 
Indeed, afaik, it seems that the only reference to the "vergasungskeller" 
seems to appear in the above letter, and nowhere else. I think it is claimed 
by Pressac[?] who says perhaps it was "really" a "slip" by Bischoff, as we 
all know that the fact that Jews were to be "gassed" was top secret. So why 
wasn't Bischoff shot? After all this is a claim of the "Gerstein" statement, 
that "gabbers" were shot immediately.   
Perhaps, Bischoff was reduced to the ranks, and sent to the Eastern Front, 
but I have never heard this as an outcome, either.
Yes, as Mr Stein says; "curious".

Since you think so much of this one single reference to an 
"vergasungskeller" in the tons and tons of captured German documents, Mr 
Stein, perhaps you can post the "letter" as a gif file to the ng, so we all 
can have look at this letter that you called "curious".  
> 
>     Would you please also explain to us once more why the SS ordered
> "gasprufer"s for the crematoria?  (I'll allow your translation of "gas
> testers.") Run that by us just one more time.  John Morris would love to
> talk to you about that.  Can you give us something besides a parrotlike
> repetition of the Leuchter Report?  (Where did Leuchter get his
> credentials as an expert German translator, by the way?)

The word "prufung" is in my dictionary as "examination". The literal meaning 
of "gasprufer" may then be gas-examiners or even gasproofers. But I think 
"gas testers" is allowable.   
If Mr Morris wants to discuss this topic, can he please post his original 
response.

> >>There was even Auschwitz III, also known as Monowitz.
> >Where there was NO places were built or used in the function of 
"execution gas chambers". 

Yet SS Judge Konrad Morgen claimed there was.... 
 
> Where did I say otherwise?  I was giving Mr. Moran a little geography 
> lesson to go along with his English lessons.

You didn't. But we mustn't leave out any details.
> 
[snip of the rest]



1) (Case IV, NO 4473 Trials of the Major War Criminals, V, page 619)
2) The Final Solution 1968. by G Reitlinger.
-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 20:28:16 PST 1995
Article: 16184 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news.mr.net!mr.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!EU.net!peer-news.britain.eu.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CREDAT JUDAEUS APELLA
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 22:45:35 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <481068402wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <48d89n$t20@zippy.cais.net> <49kn9p$9ir@zippy.cais.net> <49l890$717@access5.digex.net> <663790673wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <49vd72$pi7@access5.digex.net>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Dec 07, 1995 22.45.35
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
X-SMTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk [Fri, 8 Dec 95 1:36:55 GMT]
X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Fri, 8 Dec 95 1:38:46 GMT]

In article: <49vd72$pi7@access5.digex.net>  mstein@access5.digex.net 
> In article <663790673wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> Jeff   wrote:
> > There were no "gas chambers at Auschwitz II". 
> >Gas chamber propagandists claim morgues were used as "gas chambers". 
> >There was no buildings built as "gas chambers", unless we count delousing 
> >chambers.
> 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> Would you please then explain why Bischoff wrote a letter to Kammler 
> talking about a "Vergasungskeller?"  If you theorize that it was something 
> else, could you please produce some evidence to support the theory, rather 
> than making a naked "because I say so" assertion? 

The point here is, afaik, it is a fact that there were no purpose-built 
gaschambers marked on the plans, shows that there was no "gas chambers" 
built.  
Unless of course the plans with the room marked "morgue" was a codeword for 
"gaschamber" or "gassing cellar", or whatsoever because no "codebook" has 
ever been found. Perhaps the planners were told "verbally" that it was 
"really" an "gas chamber".  

The plans [as I recall] of Crematoria No 2 indicate no such room as an 
"Vergasungskeller". Two morgues ["LiechenKeller"] are indicated. 

It is a part of the "Holocaust" propaganda that "morgues" were not used as 
"morgues" but as "execution gas chambers". 
Various Holocaust claims involve a a dual "function". We are told that 
morgues were used as morgues in some cases, and as "execution gas chambers" 
in others. A delousing agent Zyclon B is used to "exterminate Jews", in some 
concentration camps, and in it's real function in other places. We are told 
that documents contain "coded" statements such as "in readiness for 
transport", " seperately quartered" etc which "really mean" that the persons 
referred to are to be/or are gassed. We are told by Mr Morris that the 
Crematoria at Birkenau "really" operated  in the function of "incinerators", 
later, Mr Morris, claimed it was the in the function of "blast furnaces". 
And yet despite the claim that the Crematoria were "really designed" to 
dispose of hundreds of thousands of bodies of exterminated jews, they failed 
to cope, and the hundreds of thousands of corpses had to be burnt in open 
pits. The pits of course weren't working on the days Allied recce aircraft 
took photos. But they were "really" operating on the other days.  
And of course the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" which was  
"really" the "total extermination of the Jews". 

Credat Judaeus Apella.

The word "vergasungskeller" appears in a letter (1) that Sturmbannfuhrer 
Karl Bischoff of the Auschwitz building dept is alleged to have written to 
SS Gruppenfuhrer Heinz Kammler. Kammler was "the senior works engineer of 
the SS". Later, Heinz Kammler was responsible for among other things 
V-weapons, underground aircraft factories, etc. 
Reitlinger in his book (2) claims that "Kammler was one of the first people 
to be trusted with the secrets of the Final Solution."
Athough he doesn't KNOW this. Typically, it is an assumption, based 
apprently on the fact that Kammler wrote letters concerning crematoria.  

Afaik there is no reference to a "vergasungskeller" in the plans to 
Crematoria No 2 at Birkenau (Auschwitz II). And I am sure that Mr Stein will 
confirm this. 
Indeed, afaik, it seems that the only reference to the "vergasungskeller" 
seems to appear in the above letter, and nowhere else. I think it is claimed 
by Pressac[?] who says perhaps it was "really" a "slip" by Bischoff, as we 
all know that the fact that Jews were to be "gassed" was top secret. So why 
wasn't Bischoff shot? After all this is a claim of the "Gerstein" statement, 
that "gabbers" were shot immediately.   
Perhaps, Bischoff was reduced to the ranks, and sent to the Eastern Front, 
but I have never heard this as an outcome, either.
Yes, as Mr Stein says; "curious".

Since you think so much of this one single reference to an 
"vergasungskeller" in the tons and tons of captured German documents, Mr 
Stein, perhaps you can post the "letter" as a gif file to the ng, so we all 
can have look at this letter that you called "curious".  
> 
>     Would you please also explain to us once more why the SS ordered
> "gasprufer"s for the crematoria?  (I'll allow your translation of "gas
> testers.") Run that by us just one more time.  John Morris would love to
> talk to you about that.  Can you give us something besides a parrotlike
> repetition of the Leuchter Report?  (Where did Leuchter get his
> credentials as an expert German translator, by the way?)

The word "prufung" is in my dictionary as "examination". The literal meaning 
of "gasprufer" may then be gas-examiners or even gasproofers. But I think 
"gas testers" is allowable.   
If Mr Morris wants to discuss this topic, can he please post his original 
response.

> >>There was even Auschwitz III, also known as Monowitz.
> >Where there was NO places were built or used in the function of 
"execution gas chambers". 

Yet SS Judge Konrad Morgen claimed there was.... 
 
> Where did I say otherwise?  I was giving Mr. Moran a little geography 
> lesson to go along with his English lessons.

You didn't. But we mustn't leave out any details.
> 
[snip of the rest]



1) (Case IV, NO 4473 Trials of the Major War Criminals, V, page 619)
2) The Final Solution 1968. by G Reitlinger.
-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




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