Article 6537 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: kzoo misc.test:69077 alt.revisionism:6537
Newsgroups: misc.test,alt.revisionism
Path: kzoo!k044477
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: A quick note on Jeff Roberts
Message-ID: <1995Jul1.135138.4528@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 13:51:38 GMT

It may be worth pointing out that Jeff Roberts' private discussions with
me about the starvation policy of the Nazis reveal a slightly different
picture than what, to my knowledge, he's last said publicly.  Let me
give a quick review to bring everyone up to speed on his latest stance.

First, I pointed out on the 20th of June that, in Hans Frank's diary,
in one of the many entries which took down the minutes of an official
Nazi policy-making meeting, an explicit reference to deliberate
starvation of Jews was made:

   Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 15:24:34 GMT
   From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
   Subject: A deliberate policy of starvation
   Message-ID: <1995Jun20.152434.3636@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
   
   p. 900:
   
      In whatever difficulties you observe some place here, in the form of
      the sicknesses of your workers, the breakdown of your associations,
      etc., you must always think of the fact that it is still much
      better when a Pole breaks down than that a German succumb.  That we
      sentence 1.2 million Jews to die of hunger should be noted only
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      marginally.  It is a matter, of course, that should the Jews not
      starve to death it would, we hope, result in a speeding up of
      anti-Jewish measures.

On the 21st, Jeff Roberts replied to this very message, but he deleted
the above quote from his reply and made no mention of it.  He began
that article by flatly contradicting the direct quotation which he
had deleted:

   Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:26:53 GMT
   From: Jeff Roberts 
   Subject: NO NO DELIBERATE STARVATION POLICY FOR INMATES
   Message-ID: <454824811wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
   
   Overwhelming evidence?  So far Ive seen none. There WAS insufficent
   food to go round. That the Nazi Goverment fed its soldiers and
   people first, is what I think ANY government would do in their
   situation. It is NOT evidence that they deliberately starved camp
   inmates as a matter of policy. No documents have been produced,
   which say: Starve the inmates, and no witnesses have said that
   Kramer or anyone else ordered the inmates to be starved.

On the 22nd, I called him on this:

   Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 00:17:04 GMT
   From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
   Subject: Re: NO NO DELIBERATE STARVATION POLICY FOR INMATES
   Message-ID: <1995Jun22.001704.1780@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
   
   ...he began his article by saying "Overwhelming evidence?  So far
   Ive seen none."  On the contrary -- he has seen it, it says clearly
   "we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of hunger," but he just deleted
   it and hoped it would go away.

On the 27th, he again repeated the lie that no such citation had been
presented:

   Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:33:34 GMT
   From: Jeff Roberts 
   Subject: Re: starvation
   Message-ID: <697889489wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
   
   Ross replied by asking for a citation that will prove that it was
   deliberate policy to starve concentration camps inmates.
   **********
   
   This citation is STILL awaited. 
                    *****  

On the 28th, in response to some email of his, I emailed a long article
in which I mentioned the fact that, a week prior, I'd presented him
with something which he deliberately ignored:

   From k044477 Wed Jun 28 15:23:41 1995
   Subject: Re: email copy of posted article
   To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
   Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 15:23:41 EDT
   
   I have a hard time with your being so concerned about "avoiding
   bias" when your reply to my article started out "Overwhelming
   evidence? So far Ive seen none" and then you proceeded to delete
   the quote that showed _deliberate_intent_ to starve 1.2 million
   Jews.  You, sir, are a walking, talking bias.

That same day, in response to me, he admitted that it was a "strong
point."

   Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:49:11 GMT
   From: Jeff Roberts 
   Message-Id: <139@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
   To: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu
   Subject: Re: Re: email copy of posted article
   
   The discussion was about camp inmates, remember? Also, the Hans
   Frank diary is not an official document. But its a strong point.

In later email, I went on to state the obvious point that the Jews
which Frank had sentenced to die of starvation in 1942 were the
same ones who had been put into camps by the end of the war.

And I also questioned him as to what he meant by "not an official
document" -- it's as official as can be, it was the minutes taken
of official meetings where official policies toward the governing
of Poland were decided, attended by a couple dozen official people.
The diary was handed over to the Allies by Herr Frank, and was
entered into the official documents of the official International
Nuremberg Trial, and given an official code number of 2233-PS, and
entered into the official records of the trial (both the "red
series" and the "blue series"). Mr. Roberts appears to have been
merely ignorant of this, rather than deliberately deceitful -- I'll
give him that much.

So, to summarize:  the same citation which he says publicly is "STILL
awaited," he admits privately is "a strong point."

And it's not that he just changed his mind between Tuesday publicly and
Wednesday privately.  My email on Wednesday, to which he responded, did
not give a full citation of the diary;  I only quoted that single line
and pointed out that the full citation was posted the week prior.  So
Mr. Roberts must have realized, when he deleted it the previous week,
that it was a "strong point."  It's just that he needed a reminder from
me in order to admit it.

I have a hard time understanding that kind of discussion tactics.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy       k044477@kzoo.edu       jrm0@aol.com
 http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/    I speak only for myself.

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