The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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alt.activism.d
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alt.culture.alaska
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alt.culture.egyptian			
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alt.culture.kuwait		
alt.culture.military-brats
alt.culture.net-viking
alt.current-events.la-quake
alt.fan.dan-quayle
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh		[39 total, August 27, 1995]

The article:

From IRimland@mail.cts.com Fri Aug 25 00:17:52 PDT 1995
Article: 17649 of alt.activism.d
Newsgroups: alt.activism.d
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.sprintlink.net!crash!ezundel.cts.com!user
From: IRimland@mail.cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: New Website for the Profoundly Politically Incorrect
Organization: AASF
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:44:41 GMT
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Sender: news@crash.cts.com (news subsystem)
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Ernst Zundel has been described by many as ". . . the most hated man in
Canada."  Why?  Because he challenges what has become taboo:  The
traditional, widely-believed version of the "Holocaust" - that is, the
systematic gassing of the Jews in World War II.     

Here is the question:  Is the Internet an open forum for all - or only for
the politically correct?  

"Millions of people, stupefied by incessant media propaganda, believe in
the Nazi gas chambers without ever having seen one, without having the
slightest idea of what this allegedly fantastic weapon was, without any
ability to describe its shape or operation. Nobody . . . has been able in
a half-century to provide us with a photograph, a blueprint or a model. .
. Ernst Zundel has already won.  It remains for him to make it known to
Canada and to the entire world."

From:  Foreword, "Did Six Million Really Die?"  Report of the Evidence in
the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zundel - 1988.  

For the profoundly politically incorrect, a thoughtful visit to the
Zundelsite will further this debate.  
http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english/

A response from the Nizkor Project:

Subject: Neo-Nazi Website for the Profoundly Disturbed
Summary: The Irma Rimland ZundelSpam Continues... will she hit
         every newsgroup on the net?
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: The Nizkor Project

[FOLLOWUPS TO ALT.REVISIONISM, where Zuendel's lies are
routinely exposed. The 36 irrelevant newsgroups Ms. Rimland has 
posted to so far are probably only a beginning... this could be 
the net spam of the year, folks!]

Ingrid Rimland writes:

>Ernst Zundel has been described by many as ". . . the most hated man in
>Canada."  Why?  Because he challenges what has become taboo:  The
>traditional, widely-believed version of the "Holocaust" - that is, the
>systematic gassing of the Jews in World War II.     

Actually, it is fair to say that he is disliked because he is
a liar, and because he supports neo-Nazi recruiting and
propaganda activities world-wide.

His videotape "Das Lachout Dokument," which deals with a
blatant forgery often called "The Mueller Document," is still
being distributed in Europe, even though the Lachout document
has been proven, without a _shred_ of doubt, to be phoney to
its core.  (See ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/austrian/
austrian-resistance-archives/lachout-document)

One of his publications contains outright lies about
statements attributed to one Shmuel Krakowski. In spite of the
fact that the text itself lies, and Mr. Krakowski
has made a public statement to that effect, Mr. Zuendel
continues to make money flogging the publication. That
suggests that his interests lie less in history and more in
the never-ending quest for money and power, particularly if
they can be gained at the expense of Jews.

(http://www.almanac.bc.ca/other-sites/bewise-open-letter/index.html)

Is it any wonder such a man is detested?

Lie #1:
-------

Of the estimated 12,000,000 Holocaust victims, only a
relatively small number (in the millions, but a relatively
small proportion of the total murdered by the Nazis) were gassed.
Millions, for instance, of Jews and Moslems were simply herded
together and shot. Others were deliberately starved and beaten
to death, if, that is, diseases like typhus didn't get them
first.

>Here is the question:  Is the Internet an open forum for all - 
>or only for the politically correct?  

Zundel's ilk has been active on the net for four years... 
that suggests an answer to your question, does it not?

>"Millions of people, stupefied by incessant media propaganda, believe in
>the Nazi gas chambers without ever having seen one, without having the
>slightest idea of what this allegedly fantastic weapon was, without any
>ability to describe its shape or operation. Nobody . . . has been able in
>a half-century to provide us with a photograph, a blueprint or a model. .
>. Ernst Zundel has already won.  It remains for him to make it known to
>Canada and to the entire world."

Lie #2:
-------

Blueprints, photographs, and precise descriptions of the
construction techniques, construction processes, utilization
and destruction of gas chambers all exist. Some of them are
readily available on the Web, and the Nizkor Web offers
pointers to most, if not all, of them.

Zuendel, who, it would appear, lacks the courage to discuss
these lies on the Internet, has long relied upon flunkies who
do it for him. Perhaps it is time for Herr Zuendel to confront
those of use who refute his lies, rather than hiding behind
Ms. Rimland's skirts, eh?

[followups to alt.revisionism, where Zuendel's tripe belongs]

---
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
 Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction - permanently!)
    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay
Article 56511 of soc.culture.german:
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From: IRimland@mail.cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Germans
Organization: AASF
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 03:23:01 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <40v5nr$f2j@alster.dkrz.de> <41060i$m2m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <410dt7$n6@netnews.upenn.edu>  <41cia3$lf4@c4.hrz.uni-giessen.de>
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> 
> : Those who want to know how Germany and Germans look to *Auslandsdeutschen*
> : ought to pay a visit to the newly designed *Zundelsite* at
> : http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english/  It might be an eye opener.
> 
> Obviously a Neonazi page. It doesn't take long to realize that.
> The Logo which is intentionally similar to the Swastika says it all.
> Disgusting.
> --
> Arthur.Teschler@uni-giessen.de

I don't find it disgusting at all.  Although Mr. Zundel would probably
qualify as the most hated man in Canada, many ask themselves just who is
cashing in on all that hate.  It pays to hate men like Mr. Zundel.  There
is a lot of money to be made by keeping artificial hate alive.  This is
true here as there.  What's more, the Human Rights Watch/Helsinki, has
recently said so, if only indirectly.  It is a document well pondering for
those who live in Germany.


Article 56628 of soc.culture.german:
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From: IRimland@mail.cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: Re: Looking for Ingrid
Organization: AASF
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 20:47:36 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <41epkm$kfc@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
Sender: news@crash.cts.com (news subsystem)
Nntp-Posting-Host: ezundel.cts.com
Lines: 11

In article <41epkm$kfc@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>,
c9501413@alinga.newcastle.edu.au (YONG C N) wrote:

> I am wondering if Ingrid is able to read this, I am a penpal from
> Australia. I am wondering wether you have acess to this facility.
> 
> Aaron Yong
> Sydney, Australia.

Which Ingrid?  There are thousands of Ingrids, since it is a very common
name.  Did you mean me, by any chance?  I don't recall your name.


Article 56629 of soc.culture.german:
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From: IRimland@mail.cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Germans
Organization: AASF
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 20:58:45 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <40v5nr$f2j@alster.dkrz.de> <41060i$m2m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <410dt7$n6@netnews.upenn.edu>  <41cia3$lf4@c4.hrz.uni-giessen.de>  <41hc8p$k0a@news.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
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>  (About the WWW pages by Mr. Zundel)
> >
> >I don't find it disgusting at all.  Although Mr. Zundel would probably
> >qualify as the most hated man in Canada, many ask themselves just who is
> >cashing in on all that hate.  It pays to hate men like Mr. Zundel.  There
> >is a lot of money to be made by keeping artificial hate alive.  This is
> >true here as there.  What's more, the Human Rights Watch/Helsinki, has
> >recently said so, if only indirectly.  It is a document well pondering for
> >those who live in Germany.
> >
> 
> Oh, come on, first introducing some Nazi pages and then defending them with
> the Human Rights. There is nothing which is more disgusting!
> 
> --
> -------------------------------------------------
> Markus Heupel
> Institute of Geophysics
> Department of Atmospheric Environmental Research
> University of Cologne
> mh@eurad.uni-koeln.de
> http://www.uni-koeln.de/math-nat-fak/
>    geomet/eurad/mh

I'd like to call you on the carpet to treat this venerable lady of decurum
with just a little bit more courtesy.  Name calling is for kids who have
run out of arguments. 

Did you read the document to which I was referring?  It is a chlling
indictment of what is going on politically in Germany.  I know whereof I
speak, having been born in Russia in the depths of the Stalinist purges.  

Please read before you fling insults.  What's happening is serious.


Article 56841 of soc.culture.german:
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From: IRimland@mail.cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Germans
Organization: AASF
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 21:14:51 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <40v5nr$f2j@alster.dkrz.de> <41060i$m2m@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <410dt7$n6@netnews.upenn.edu>  <41cia3$lf4@c4.hrz.uni-giessen.de>  <41hc8p$k0a@news.rrz.uni-koeln.de>  <41jut6$e1h@news.rrz.uni-koeln.de>
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> To call the evil by the name is sometimes necessary.
> 
I agree.  If the evil *is* evil. The proof is in the pudding.   


> When you read for example that it is denied that Germany is a democratic state
> by citing a flyer which is published by some chaots before the chaos days and
> claiming that they should have been sent to jail like the rightist young
> people who wanted to demonstrate on Rudolf Hess day. How can these two events
> be compared? 

The two events can be compared by applying the law equally.  The argument
was made by the authorities that the Hess group was up to no good, and
therefore they had to be restrained - "in Schutzhaft genommen"  In the
same breath the  argument was made that the chaots hadn't yet done
anything dangerous, and therefore they *could't* be taken into custody. 
That was "against the law."

>The denial of the Holocaust is compared  with the denial of the Holy
Ghost. How > can you do this? The first is a denial
> of a historical fact, the second is a question of religion! 

The argument is made here in America that Holocaust genuflection is indeed
a State religion one cannot violate if you know what is good for you.  In
the United States it's still allowed to challenge the Holocaust dogma, but
only barely.  In Germany people do hard time in the slammer for such a
*heresy* - with absolutely no legal recourse.  

The logo of the *Zundelsite* website is the Zundel logo that has been in
existence for many years.  Ernst Zundel has never made a secret of his
unorthodox political views.  Many of his followers do not agree with him
at all, but they all respect him for his unlimited, though violently
challenged courage to call a spade a spade.  He has never burned anyone's
house, or spit in anyone's face, or sent bombs to his opponents, or
applied ruthless telephone terror - which is more than can be said of his
detractors.  

> And now tell me what has your place of birth got to do with these things? 

This much:  That I was born in the midst of the Stalinist purges, which
wiped out most of my family.  What I see coming down the chute for Germany
and for the rest of the world, for that matter, is Marxism under a
different cloak and with a different name, which is a scary thought.  

Luckily for me, I'm just a little old grandma who can still have her say. 
I assume that you are half my age that you are so certain that you see the
luminous truth?


Article 56911 of soc.culture.german:
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From: IRimland@mail.cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Germans
Organization: AASF
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 00:02:06 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <40v5nr$f2j@alster.dkrz.de>  <41jut6$e1h@news.rrz.uni-koeln.de>  
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> IRimland@mail.cts.com writes:
> 
> # That I was born in the midst of the Stalinist purges, which
> # wiped out most of my family.
> 
> When Holocaust survivors make such a claim about Nazi
> persecution, Holocaust-deniers invariably call them "filthy
> old liars", etc.
> 
> How would you feel if someone would call you a "filthy old
> liar", in response to your claim that most of your family was
> "wiped out in the Stalinist purges", and demand physical
> proof that you are speaking the truth?

I would not like that at all, but no one calls me that.  I guess nobody
calls me that because I am not collecting money on my family's casualties
without sufficient forensic evidence.  The Revisionist argument is
*science."  I think that if I came to Germany with a claim for reparations
without sufficient documentation, I wouldn't get very far.  Besides, we
mourn our dead quietly and privately.  We don't cash in on them.  

> 
If it makes you happy to know, you are
> about my mother's age. I don't claim that I know the luminous truth,
> but I know a lie when I see one.

Danny, I can't say I am happy that I am twice your age, but I am counting
on my wrinkles to have you hear me out.  You see, somebody warned me
against you, saying that you were very, very smart, and if I made an enemy
of you, I would be totally discredited in this newsgroup because you
bullied everybody.  This person also told me you were fair, and to keep
that in mind.  

So I already know that you are smart, and If you are fair, we'll get along
just fine, and you will learn to respect and look deeper into what I am
saying.  The truth is that I do not fear cold intelligence ever.  I only
fear the mindless mob that starts shouting "Nazi" the moment somebody
stops to genuflect about the Holocaust.  If you look deeper into what I am
saying, I think it's possible that you will change your mind.  It's also
possible that I will change my mind because I value intellectual
integrity, and I've already changed it once, and with good evidence.  

I was a firm believer in the Holocaust for most of my life, and it was a
very heavy burden. I changed my mind after I read some stuff that is now
being censored practically everywhere in the world except in the United
States, and many people here think it will happen also.

I just put my two cents' worth into this battered world to tell things as
I see them while I still can.  While there is time.  Which may not be too
long.  
>


Article 57101 of soc.culture.german:
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From: IRimland@mail.cts.com (Ingrid Rimland)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Germans
Organization: AASF
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 19:21:49 GMT
Message-ID: 
References: <40v5nr$f2j@alster.dkrz.de>    <41rq3t$nrc@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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> 
> Let's talk about science, Ms. Rimland, and begin with the
> videotape "Das Lachout Dokument," which deals with a
> blatant forgery often called "The Mueller Document." 

I don't know about this document, but I will check it out.

> Then let us move on to a Samisdat publication which
> contains outright lies about statements attributed to one Shmuel 
> Krakowski. In spite of the fact that the text itself lies, and Mr. 
> Krakowski has made a public statement to that effect, Mr. Zuendel
> continues to make money flogging the publication. That
> suggests that his interests lie less in history and more in
> the never-ending quest for money and power, particularly if
> they can be gained at the expense of Jews.

I don't know that Ernst Zundel makes a lot of money off of some Jewish
people, but I do know that his house was burned down in May, which caused
hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage, and a Jewish organization took
credit for that arson in a phone call to the paper in Toronto.  

> I also heard, which may be just a rumor, that it's a Jewish group (I
believe it's the Wiesenthal Center?) who are employing *you*.  Correct me
if I'm wrong.



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