The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/deny-holocaust.08

From: Annie Alpert 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust redefined WAS Re: Mr. Raven, please explain the contradiction
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:40:03 -0500
Organization: Freelance Soccer Mom
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Greg Raven wrote:
> Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> > You say (1) "6 million ... is an irresponsible exaggeration," (2) "no
> > Nazi plan," and (3) "no Nazi gas chambers."  You're being quite
> > consistent, since you explained your views in almost exactly the same
> > words on your first big entrance to the Internet, on Hitler's birthday,
> > 1994.
> It never fails to amaze me to learn how closely people of your sexual
> preference keep track of Hitler's birthday. I have no record of my first
> day on the Internet, and I couldn't care less about Hitler's birthday.
Well!  That's novel, even for YOU, Greg! What do ou know about Jamie's
'sexual preference' and what does that have to do with his noticing that
you happened to begin posting on Hitler's birthday (if indeed you did,
which I have not verified)?  I await you answer with bated breath . . . 

> > The problem, Mr. Raven, is that you also define the term Holocaust as
> > (1) "the murder of six million Jews," (2) "as a central act of state by
> > the Nazis," (3) "many in gas chambers."
> > (snip)
> I do? If you were paying as much attention to what I actually say and
> write on this subject as you do to Hitler's birthday, you would have
> long ago discovered that this is NOT my definition of "the Holocaust." I
> direct your attention to the following URL:

I read your essay, but found it strangely unsatisfying.  The bulk of the
writing consisted of a collection of 'definitions' of the term
"Holocaust"--not particulalry enlightening.  You then wrote:

Finally, the door must be left open to consider the role of Jewish and
Zionist leaders. Whether or not they were well-intentioned, actions by
the Judenrat, Jewish kapos, and pro-Nazi Zionists that resulted in
Jewish deaths must be studied and criticized, just as actions by these
groups and others are praised when they resulted in the saving of Jewish

The essential offensiveness of your 'blame the Jews" message is lost on
you, I fear, so I won't dwell on it here--Suffice it to say, if the
Third Reich had not attacked, Jews would not have had to respond.

Left undefined, but to be determined by examining the facts within the
framework above, is the "why" of the Holocaust. 

A proposed definition 

According to the OED, revision is, "The action of revising or looking
over again; esp. critical or careful examination or perusal with a view
to correcting or improving." Revisionism is defined as, "A term used for
a revised attitude to some previously accepted political situation,
doctrine, or point of view." A revisionist, then, would be someone who
approaches the Holocaust by looking at the facts, putting them in
context, and arriving at the "why." An anti-revisionist would be someone
who has fixed ideas about why the Holocaust happened, and then finds
facts to support that conclusion, usually at the expense of context. 

Taking into account everything above, I would propose that the term
"Holocaust" be defined as: "The mistreatment of Jewish civilians,
primarily in Europe, at the hands of the combatants during the Second
World War (1939-1945)." 

Your 'definition' is so incomplete as to be incomprehensible, Greg. 
Mistreatment?  Primarily in Europe?  Combatants?  Not even a nice try,
Greg.  Your long, verbose essay leads up to THIS?  Honestly! What a

Instead of 'mistreatment' try: the murder of millions of innocent men,
woman and children who were--or were thought to be--Jewish or members of
other 'unacceptable' ethnic, social and political groups." 

Instead of "primarily in Europe" try: "Europe and Western Asia".

Instead of "combatants" try: "Nazi Third Reich military forces,
collaborators and civilians."

Which leaves us with:
"The murder of millions of innocent men, woman and children who were--or
were thought to be--Jewish or members of other 'unacceptable' ethnic,
social and political groups primarily in Europe and Western Asia at the
hands of the Nazi Third Reich military forces, collaborators and
civilians during the Second World War (1939-1945)."

> -- 
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