The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1995/raven.1295


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Dec 17 09:25:20 PST 1995
Article: 16379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan094.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: can.general,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Zundel's UFO Research on the WEB
Date: 17 Dec 1995 02:09:41 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 13
Message-ID: 
References: <4ab7cn$a68@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan085.kaiwan.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:61998 alt.revisionism:16379 soc.history:2635 soc.culture.german:63953

In article <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>,
gtaylor@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor) wrote:

> You ever notice that there aren't *any* pictures of Zundel and Col. Harlan
> Sanders together? I mean *ever?*


Ever notice how there are no photos of Nazi gas chambers? I mean *ever?*

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Dec 17 09:25:21 PST 1995
Article: 16386 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan094.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism
Date: 17 Dec 1995 02:23:18 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 15
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan085.kaiwan.com

In article ,
pmagal@texas.net (Patrick Magallanes) wrote:

> It is my belief that each person who argues that the holocaust never
> occured, should be forced to visit the remnants of one of the death camps.

It is my belief that each person who argues that those who question
certain aspects of the traditional Holocaust story, should be forced to
study English until they understand that Holocaust revisionists do not
deny the Holocaust.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Dec 17 09:25:22 PST 1995
Article: 16387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan094.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Of soap and things...
Date: 17 Dec 1995 02:25:50 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References:   <805427992wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4asbkb$g47@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan085.kaiwan.com

In article <4asbkb$g47@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

> In article <805427992wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, 
> jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > The tales of gassing, human soap factories & human soap, 
> > ... are IMHO, just propaganda fiction. It's just rubbish. 
> 
> If, by the above, you mean to say that no large-scale
> facilities existed for the manufacture of soap from human
> remains existed, I would agree.
> 
> If, however, you mean to say that no experiments were
> conducted with regard to creating soap from human remains,
> then I would ask you to present your evidence refuting the
> testimony of Mazur et al at Nuremberg. I've been waiting to
> see it for rather a long time.

That Mazur's "testimony" is fraudulent can be determined by anyone who has
ever made soap, or who knows about the soap-making process. To the best of
my knowledge, it would be virtually impossible to make soap using the
recipe given by Mazur.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!tweety.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail
From: werner@tweety.cc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: can.general,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Zundel's UFO Research on the WEB
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 17 Dec 1995 01:48:18 -0600
Organization: Home on the Ranch
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4b0i02$2he@tweety.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <4ab7cn$a68@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>  <4b04j9$i35@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tweety.cc.utexas.edu
X-NOTE: courtesy copy of posted article
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:62026 alt.revisionism:16415 soc.history:2636 soc.culture.german:63962

quoting roger@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) :
 
|>> You ever notice that there aren't *any* pictures of Zundel and
|>> Col. Harlan Sanders together? I mean *ever?*
|>
|> Ever notice how there are no photos of Nazi gas chambers? I mean *ever?*

	gas chambers with Nazis inside?  Not that I recall, no.
	Should there have been?!?  (they were hanged or shot, mostly;
	too easy, many say)


| There are no photos of your parents fucking, either.  Care to claim
| it never took place?


	

	that settles it for me !

	(I'm going to keep this one as a classic -- I don't recall
	 Roger using the backhanded slap across the mouth before...)
-- 
             "Free Advice and Opinions -- Refunds Available"
-> Tiananmen Square: 5 years later, ignoring it became OFFICIAL US policy <--
-> will a 14-year sentence for a Wei Jingsheng change anything ?!?  hah!  <--
  ---> ( I believe in emailing courtesy copies of follow-up articles ) <---
Newsgroups: can.general,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Zundel's UFO Research on the WEB
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <4ab7cn$a68@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> 
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 07:57:44 GMT
Lines: 43
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:62027 alt.revisionism:16416 soc.history:2637 soc.culture.german:63963

ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
 
# Ever notice how there are no photos of Nazi gas chambers? I 
# mean *ever?*
 
This is, of course, a lie; and not the first lie Raven posted
on this group, or elsewhere. Recently, he posted a pack of lies
about a Nazi document which discusses gassing of Jews "unfit
for work" (the Wetzel-Lohse letter).
 
Raven knows very well that such photographs exist, and that some of
the gas chambers still exist; and he knows very well that there
are still cyanide compounds on their walls (and "Holocaust
revisionists" have measured these compounds themselves).
 
But then again, what can one expect from a "leading revisionist"
like Raven? Here's, BTW, what he thinks of Adolf Hitler:
 

 
 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
 
My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not 
interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of 
our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect, 
but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.
 

 
Raven has yet failed to tell us just *why* he loves Hitler
so much. 

 
-Danny Keren.

-- 
Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.

-Lu Xun.
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
Newsgroups: can.general,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Zundel's UFO Research on the WEB
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 08:42:17 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4b0knt$a0k@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References: <4ab7cn$a68@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: async8-5.remote.ualberta.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:62033 alt.revisionism:16424 soc.history:2638 soc.culture.german:63968

ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

>In article <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>,
>gtaylor@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor) wrote:

>> You ever notice that there aren't *any* pictures of Zundel and Col. Harlan
>> Sanders together? I mean *ever?*


>Ever notice how there are no photos of Nazi gas chambers? I mean *ever?*

Ever notice how Greg Raven dashes off these one liners, disappears
behind his web "personal" page, and never discusses evidence? I mean
*ever?*

Say! This is fun!

--
 John Morris                               
 at University of Alberta     
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca

Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!miwok!news.zeitgeist.net!bgalten.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: can.general,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Zundel's UFO Research on the WEB
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:47:04 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 65
Message-ID: 
References: <4ab7cn$a68@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bgalten.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:62042 alt.revisionism:16435 soc.history:2639 soc.culture.german:63972

In article ,
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> In article <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>,
> gtaylor@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor) wrote:
> 
> > You ever notice that there aren't *any* pictures of Zundel and Col. Harlan
> > Sanders together? I mean *ever?*
> 
> 
> Ever notice how there are no photos of Nazi gas chambers? I mean *ever?*

Oh, Really? My how simply _positive_ you sound Mr. Raven! Tsk tsk. No
pictures _ever_, eh? Hmm, let's see:

In "Auschwitz: a history in photographs" (ISBN 0-253-35581-8): 

Picture of Auschwitz II-Birkenau. View of Gas Chamber and Crematorium II. 
Plate 33 & 34; p. 67.

Picture of Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Gas Chamber and Crematorium IV. 
Plate 38; p. 69.

Picture of Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Gas Chamber and Crematorium V. 
Plate 39; p. 70.

Picture of Cellars of Block 11. "in September 1942, 600 Soviet prisoners
of war and 250 Polish political prisoners were taken from the camp
infirmery and murdered here with Zyklon B gas to test its efficiency as
instrument of mass murder." Plate 124; p. 121.

In "Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945" - 1st American ed. (ISBN 0-8050-0938-8):
Picture of Crematorium III in Birkenau.

In "Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945" (ISBN 3-87490-528-4): Picture of
"Barracke X" (gas chamber and four crematoriums) at Dachau. Plate 363; p.
173.


But I suppose you _really_ meant the _inside_ of a Nazi gas-chamber,
didn't you? Hmm, let's see: 

In "Auschwitz: a history in photographs" (ISBN 0-253-35581-8): Picture of
the _interior_ of the gas chamber of Auschwitz I. "This gas chamber, the
first to be used in Auschwitz, operated from the end of 1941 to 1942. It
was not originally constructed as a gas chamber, having been improvised in
the mortuary of the camp's crematorium." Plate 166; p. 155.

In "Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945" (ISBN 3-87490-528-4): A picture
of the _inside_ of the gas-chamber at Majdenek. Plate 404; p. 196.


Ever notice how Holocaust deniers keep making false statements? Even when
trying to be facetious? Must be a compulsion or something. Maybe even
neurosis. Or perhaps just it's plain stupidity? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.ecn.bgu.edu!siemens!princeton!cnn.Princeton.EDU!silvertone!roger
From: roger@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: can.general,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Zundel's UFO Research on the WEB
Date: 17 Dec 1995 03:59:37 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4b04j9$i35@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
References: <4ab7cn$a68@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: silvertone.princeton.edu
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:62048 alt.revisionism:16443 soc.history:2640 soc.culture.german:63978

In article  ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>In article <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>,
>gtaylor@shell1.msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor) wrote:

>> You ever notice that there aren't *any* pictures of Zundel and Col. Harlan
>> Sanders together? I mean *ever?*

>Ever notice how there are no photos of Nazi gas chambers? I mean *ever?*

There are no photos of your parents fucking, either.  Care to claim
it never took place?

Roger
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: can.general,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Raven's Myopia in Remission: Who's Lying to Who?
Date: 17 Dec 1995 10:35:15 -0800
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4b1nt3$ekl@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4ab7cn$a68@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>  <4b0knt$a0k@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:62086 alt.revisionism:16471 soc.history:2645 soc.culture.german:63995

In article <4b0knt$a0k@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, 
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

[blather]

>Ever notice how Greg Raven dashes off these one liners, disappears
>behind his web "personal" page, and never discusses evidence? I mean
>*ever?*

You really should be pleased that Mr. Raven's Myopia has
receeded a tad, and he has decided to reappear within these
humble climes... perhaps, now that he is here, he will clear
up the fascinating question as to who, exactly, is running the
store.

The last legal papers I saw from the Secretary of State
(Texas), showed that Willis Carto was President of the Legion
for the Survival of Freedom:

ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/legion-for-survival-of-freedom/legal/LSF-SOC-10-31-94

Since Mr. Raven has claimed that the IHR, which is, in fact,
the Legion's operating front, has no president and CEO, the
curious among us would really love hearing him explain the
Nexus listing for the IHR, which showed Tom Marcellus as
President (February 21, 1995).

Was the IHR lying to the State when it filed this information,
or was Mr. Raven lying to us?

Was the "IHR Update" of July 1995 lying when it noted that Mr.
Raven was "the new chief executive officer and corporate
president" of the IHR, or was Mr. Raven lying to us?

Was Ernst Zundel lying to us, when he referred to Mr. Raven
(Power Letter #1) as the "new head of the IHR," or was Mr.
Raven lying to us?

Now that Mr. Raven's Myopia is in remission, perhaps he
will tell us whether he lies to us, or permits his IHR
_publications_ to lie to us.

 

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: can.general,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Greg Raven: Just Plain Dishonest
Date: 17 Dec 1995 10:37:21 -0800
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4b1o11$elp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: <4ab7cn$a68@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4adn2g$9n9@tricia.msn.fullfeed.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:62091 alt.revisionism:16472 soc.history:2646 soc.culture.german:63996

In article , 
mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>Ever notice how Holocaust deniers keep making false statements? Even when
>trying to be facetious? Must be a compulsion or something. Maybe even
>neurosis. Or perhaps just it's plain stupidity? 

Holocaust denial, as a close friend recently noted, is about
one thing, and one thing only: dishonesty.

Mr. Raven is a liar and a fraud, like Holocaust deniers
everywhere.

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Dec 21 09:45:02 PST 1995
Article: 17139 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan092.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL  "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Date: 21 Dec 1995 14:26:33 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 7
Message-ID: 
References: <4b3s58$j8r@zippy.cais.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan092.kaiwan.com

Isn't it amazing that Holocaust revisionism, which we are told is totally
baseless and easily refuted b mountains of evidence, must be censored?

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Dec 21 09:45:03 PST 1995
Article: 17140 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan092.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The IHR's finances
Date: 21 Dec 1995 14:31:03 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <4b91ck$9aq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4bafq9$6od@news.enter.net> <4bb61n$507@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan092.kaiwan.com

In article <4bb61n$507@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

> In article <4bafq9$6od@news.enter.net>, 
> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
> >       Another interesting set of questions that Raven will
> >ignore.  I think it is time,a s well, to start looking at IHR finances.
> >The claim has been made that the IHR is registered as a 501 (c)
> >not for profit organization.  This status exempts such organizations
> >from the payment of federal taxes and makes contributions to them
> >tax deductible.  In order to qualify there must be an application made
> >for that status and an annual report of receipts and expenditures must be
> >filed with the IRS.  These are public documents.
> 
> Last I heard, the League was apparently about $177k in the
> red, so they're not raking in the bucks... tell me, can a
> 501(c) corporation own and operate a for-profit company, say
> like Noontide Press?


Let's see, now. Both Yale Edeiken's and Ken McVay's comments above contain
serious errors and/or distortions of easily-ascertainable and well-known
facts. No wonder the revisionist movement is so strong and growing.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Dec 21 09:45:04 PST 1995
Article: 17142 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan092.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.jewish,soc.history
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Greg Raven (Round 5)
Date: 21 Dec 1995 14:49:06 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 214
Message-ID: 
References: <4b91ck$9aq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan086.kaiwan.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:17142 alt.politics.white-power:11784 alt.politics.nationalism.white:8821 talk.politics.misc:303446 soc.culture.jewish:20571 soc.history:2735

In article <4b91ck$9aq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

> Archive/File: pub/people/r/raven.greg/raven-refuses-links
> Last-Modified: 1995/11/29
> First Published: 1995/08/24
> 
> Mr. Raven:
> 
> On August 8, 1995, I challenged you to provide links from the
> IHR web site to my Nizkor site. My challenge began with the
> following paragraph:
> 
>  As President and Chief Executive Officer of the Institute for
>  Historical Review, Mr. Raven, you operate the IHR's WWW
>  site, http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg, as a focalpoint for the
>  dissemination of neo-Nazi Holocaust denial propaganda.
> 
> Your response to that paragraph follows:
> 
>    "Just about everything about this paragraph, the first in 
>    McVay╣s 'open letter,' is inaccurate. To save space, I will 
>    deal only with the substantive falsehoods.
> 
>    First, I am not president and/or CEO of the Institute for 
>    Historical Review, as the IHR has no president and/or CEO."
>    (Raven, "Reply")
> 
> Mr. Raven, perhaps you will explain the following information,
> which, I am advised, appeared in the July, 1995 "IHR Update,
> Number 2 (July 1995)," on page 2, in an article called "Thank
> you, Tom:"
> 
>    "In March the corporate Board of Directors appointed 
>    Mark Weber as the new IHR Director, and Greg Raven as 
>    the new chief executive officer and corporate President."
> 
> Is this citation correct, Mr. Raven? If not, why does an
> official publication of the IHR include this statement, when
> you claim that "...the IHR has no president and/or CEO?"

Yes, the information is correct, and there is no contradiction. You simply
do not understand what you are reading. At any rate, none of this has the
least bearing on the topic at hand: Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber.

> According to a nexis search of the corporate registration, 
> Thomas J Marcellus was listed as _president_ as of 2/21/95,
> and the office was registered at: 1650 Babcock, Costa Mesa, 
> California, 92627. Was that information correct, Mr. Raven,
> as of February 21, 1995, or is it incorrect? If it is correct,
> please explain why you stated: "...the IHR has no president 
> and/or CEO?" If it is incorrect, please explain why incorrect
> data (i.e. that the IHR has a president) was provided to the
> corporate registrar.

The information you present is incomplete, so I cannot comment on it. I
will, however, restate that the IHR has no president and/or CEO.

> According to Articles of Amendment filed with the Office of
> the Secretary of State of Texas on July 10, 1995, for the
> Legion for the Survival of Freedom," you are the President and
> Mark Weber is the Secretary. At the time you signed that
> document, the "principle and normal place of business of the
> corporation is in Orange County, California," where the IHR is
> located. A May 15, 1995 article in the Los Angeles Times (A3)
> describes the Legion as the "parent company" of the IHR. 
> Is that correct, Mr. Raven?

Of course.

> Also, I direct your attention to the words of Ernst Zuendel,
> who, in his Power Letter #1, says:
> 
>    "We want to thank Greg Raven - new head of the IHR - 
>    for allowing us to be on his Website on a temporary 
>    basis."
> 
>    
> 
> Is Mr. Zuendel lying, Mr. Raven?

No.

> With regard to my statement that you operate the IHR's Web
> site, you replied:
> 
>    "Second, while it is true that I make available some IHR 
>    material on the World Wide Web, I do so not in my official 
>    capacity with the IHR, but rather I do it on my own time, 
>    and I finance it out of my own monies." (Ibid.)
> 
> Let's examine that statement in light of the February 1995
> "IHR Update," which called for funds to support "your" web
> site, Mr. Raven:
> 
>    Getting IHR on the Internet has so far been entirely Greg Raven's
>    private spare time project.  Because of the remarkable interest
>    generated by this small sample of IHR materials, we are
>    seeking funds to make this an IHR priority, so that
>    eventually just about everything that's appeared in 14 years of
>    The Journal of Historical Review will be available on the
>    Internet.
> 
> The newsletter included a fundraising letter, and a form which
> included a box which could be checked by those wishing to
> donate to the IHR Internet Project. In short, the IHR has
> taken active steps to fund "your" web site, Mr. Raven.

Not true. The IHR has taken steps to launch its own Web site. In the mean
time, my site is the best source for IHR materials.

> In addition, as a page on the Nizkor Web points out: 
> 
> It is important to note that this fundraiser was not an isolated
> incident.The IHR's December fundraising letter stated that one of 
> their five goals for 1995 was to:
> 
>    Make IHR materials available to millions around the 
>    world on the Internet 'information super-highway,' so 
>    that researchers and other interested persons will have 
>    fast, around-the-clock access to the best revisionist 
>    materials.
> 
> Given that it's been well over nine months since the call for funds 
> was first sounded, one wonders when you, Mr. Raven, will stop 
> claiming that you "...finance it out of my own monies"?

I will stop claiming that I finance my Web site out of my own monies as
soon as someone else takes over that financing. Until then, it is a true
statement. I have never received any money from the IHR or anyone else to
help pay for my Web site / Internet account.

> In addition, Mr. Raven, your own IHR Update #2, July 1995,
> includes an article on page 4 which reads in part:
> 
>    Every computer user with access to [the web] can quickly  
>    access IHR materials.
> 
> Many of us who oppose the viewpoint you represent within your
> Web pages have asked you repeatedly to provide links from the
> IHR's site to the Nizkor Project. (I first did that on the
> 28th. of May, 1995, and I believe that others began making
> this request of you long before that.)

If you and others connected with you were interested in discussing the
issues, there would be no problem with cross-linking. However, as you and
others have attacked me and others on a personal basis, and because you
continue to do so, I am not interested in cross-linking. You have only
yourself to blame.

> In your response to my first open letter, Mr. Raven, you
> included the following assertion with regard to Jamie
> McCarthy's Web pages:
> 
>    "I have not visited McCarthy╣s Web site in some time, i
>    but the last time I did, one of the first things I read 
>    was a misquote of something I wrote, that McCarthy further 
>    mischaracterized in order to cast aspersions on me."
>    (Ibid.)
> 
> ...and this comment about the Nizkor Web and archives:
> 
>    "Thus, although McVay attempts to present himself as being 
>    interested in a free exchange of positions, this posting 
>    clearly shows that he is more inclined to personal attacks 
>    on revisionists. In his open letter, he even includes a URL 
>    (Universal Resource Locator -- a form of Internet address)
>    for a file that can only be considered a personal attack on 
>    me, and visitors to his site will find other files personally 
>    (and inaccurately) attacking me and others." (Ibid.)
> 
> In the first instance, Mr. McCarthy has repeatedly demanded
> that you cite the specific "misquote of something" you wrote,
> and yet you, having accused him of deliberate
> misrepresentation of your words, have thus far failed to
> provide evidence of the truth of your accusation. 

>From  my exchanges with Mr McCarthy, I have learned that he is in no way
interested in rational debate, and that he delights in diverting the
discussion away from the topic at hand, as you often do. Therefore,
responding to him is usually pointless and counterproductive.

> For one who prattles about "casting aspersions" on others Mr.
> Raven, you seem strangely reluctant to prove your case by
> providing a URL for the offending text. Why is that, Mr.
> Raven? Could it be that you are being less than honest? Could
> it be that no such misrepresentation exists on Mr. McCarthy's
> Web pages?

Because it is off-topic. Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber. THIS is
the topic, not the corporate structure of the IHR, who pays my bills, what
kind of a guy Hitler was or wasn't, what I do in my spare time, etc. All
of these items and many more have been used in personal attacks on me.
Why?

> The file also includes the flat assertion that files contained
> on your site contain lies about the Holocaust, which is
> factually correct. (On July 19, 1995, Jamie McCarthy noted 15
> separate falsehoods on Mr. Raven's web pages, providing both
> URL's and complete context; on August 4th. Mr. McCarthy
> followed-up with quick explanations as to why each was false.
> It goes without saying that Mr. Raven has not defended these
> 15 falsehoods.)

Typically, I no longer read anything that Mr. McCarthy has to say for the
above-stated reasons. Again, this is his own fault. If he, and you, could
only stick to the topic at hand, this discussion would be more less
acrimonious and much more productive and enlightening. But perhaps that is
what you fear.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Thu Dec 21 09:45:05 PST 1995
Article: 17143 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan092.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Institute for Historical Revision
Date: 21 Dec 1995 14:51:14 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 13
Message-ID: 
References: <4b4as2$844_001@ts1-sj-01.mi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan086.kaiwan.com

In article <4b4as2$844_001@ts1-sj-01.mi.net>, gardener@mis.nb.ca
(gardener) wrote:

> How can I get hold of the IHR? I am trying to find a book by David Irving 
> about the 1956 Hungarian Revolution. Does anyone know where I can find it?

E-mail to the IHR can be sent in care of my e-mail address, which can be
found below. Irving's book Uprising! is still available from the IHR.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Wed Dec 27 08:53:15 PST 1995
Article: 17581 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan098.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving's 4 million? (Re: It wasn't six million, Mr. Griswold)
Date: 27 Dec 1995 15:18:12 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: <4aajs1$6jl@news3.cts.com> <4b7io0$13g@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <30D90862.60CE@aimnet.com> <4bc8n6$3u5@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan098.kaiwan.com

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

> Perhaps the most amazing thing about this "Holocaust revisionism"
> thing is the recent statement by David Irving. 

No, the most amazing thing about Holocaust revisionism is that it is even
needed in the first place. That the mess of fabrications and errors that
constitute the Holocaust extermination myth ever came to be regarded as
factual is almost beyond belief.

> Irving, for years now, has been regarded as the "leading
> revisionist scholar". His articles and speeches were
> routinely published by other "revisionists". Moreover, he
> is the only "revisionist" with any reputation whatsoever as
> a historian.

Typically, you are mixing things up and blurring lines in an attempt to
set up a straw man so you can more easily knock it down. Irving may be a
"leading revisionist scholar," as you say, but there is more to
revisionism that the Holocaust, and where the Holocaust is concerned,
Irving is not the leading scholar. It is nice to read that you concede
that Irving has a reputation as a historian, but Mark Weber is a
credentialled historian, and is, in my opinion, the best historian of the
Holocaust, period.

> It was reported that, recently, Irving said in an interview
> to an Australian radio station that 4 million Jews died in
> the Holocaust. No "revisionist" denies he said this; I have
> the text of the interview, from "Media Monitors".

More mix up. No revisionist denies he said this, or no revisionist denies
that four million Jews died in the "Holocaust"? The former is correct, but
moot. So what if Irving said it, that doesn't make it law. The latter is
untrue.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Wed Dec 27 08:53:16 PST 1995
Article: 17582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan098.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The IHR's finances
Date: 27 Dec 1995 15:23:02 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <4b91ck$9aq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4bafq9$6od@news.enter.net> <4bb61n$507@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan098.kaiwan.com

In article , t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH
MURRAY) wrote:

> In article 
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> >Let's see, now. Both Yale Edeiken's and Ken McVay's comments above contain
> >serious errors and/or distortions of easily-ascertainable and well-known
> >facts. No wonder the revisionist movement is so strong and growing.
> 
> 
> Let's see, now.  You will of course tell us exactly what those errors are 
> and give us the corrections.


Nope. They are completely beside the point. Now, if you can produce a Nazi
gas chamber (and not, as others have done, produce a photo of a building
and/or room that is NOT a gas chamber, but CALL it a gas chamber), we can
get down to business.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Wed Dec 27 08:53:17 PST 1995
Article: 17583 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan098.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The IHR's finances
Date: 27 Dec 1995 15:24:43 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4b91ck$9aq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4bafq9$6od@news.enter.net> <4bb61n$507@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4bevle$bes@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan098.kaiwan.com

In article <4bevle$bes@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message  -
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
>  (Greg Raven) writes:
> :>Let's see, now. Both Yale Edeiken's and Ken McVay's comments above contain
> :>serious errors and/or distortions of easily-ascertainable and well-known
> :>facts. No wonder the revisionist movement is so strong and growing.
> 
> Sure they do, Greg.  I notice that you didn't try to refute a single one of
> those "errors/distortions".  Speaks  volumes in my mind.


Perhaps you should have that checked out.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Wed Dec 27 11:26:08 PST 1995
Article: 17582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan098.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The IHR's finances
Date: 27 Dec 1995 15:23:02 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <4b91ck$9aq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4bafq9$6od@news.enter.net> <4bb61n$507@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan098.kaiwan.com

In article , t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH
MURRAY) wrote:

> In article 
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> >Let's see, now. Both Yale Edeiken's and Ken McVay's comments above contain
> >serious errors and/or distortions of easily-ascertainable and well-known
> >facts. No wonder the revisionist movement is so strong and growing.
> 
> 
> Let's see, now.  You will of course tell us exactly what those errors are 
> and give us the corrections.


Nope. They are completely beside the point. Now, if you can produce a Nazi
gas chamber (and not, as others have done, produce a photo of a building
and/or room that is NOT a gas chamber, but CALL it a gas chamber), we can
get down to business.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Wed Dec 27 11:26:09 PST 1995
Article: 17583 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan098.kaiwan.com!user
From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The IHR's finances
Date: 27 Dec 1995 15:24:43 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4b91ck$9aq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4bafq9$6od@news.enter.net> <4bb61n$507@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4bevle$bes@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan098.kaiwan.com

In article <4bevle$bes@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message  -
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
>  (Greg Raven) writes:
> :>Let's see, now. Both Yale Edeiken's and Ken McVay's comments above contain
> :>serious errors and/or distortions of easily-ascertainable and well-known
> :>facts. No wonder the revisionist movement is so strong and growing.
> 
> Sure they do, Greg.  I notice that you didn't try to refute a single one of
> those "errors/distortions".  Speaks  volumes in my mind.


Perhaps you should have that checked out.

-- 
Greg Raven
ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg



Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.