The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1995/raven.0795


From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Jul  2 15:42:46 PDT 1995
Article: 23007 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 30 Jun 1995 02:39:41 GMT
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In message <3skq3k$r0a@agate.berkeley.edu> - schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richa
rd Schultz) writes:
:>
:>In article ,
:>Greg Raven  wrote:
:>>In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
:>>(Richard Schultz) wrote:
:>
:>>> Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on to say
:>>> "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is not enough to
:>>> separate out the Jews)?
:>
:>>I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
:>>(Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
:>>"uproot."
:>
:>
:>Let me repeat my question, since you appear to have missed it the first 
:>time.  If "ausrotten" means "uproot," why does Ley specifically add that
:>"Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern"?  

Richard, I am convinced that Greg got your question the first time.  He 
simply chose not to answer it.  That's about what we would expect.



Gord McFee 

"I'll write no line before its time"




From k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu Sun Jul  2 15:42:49 PDT 1995
Article: 23008 of alt.revisionism
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: So what _is_ Fritz Berg up to?
Message-ID: <1995Jun30.023735.1524@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 02:37:35 GMT
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:

> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
> > Rumour has it that our friend Fritz Berg is cracking the whip at the
> > IHR, and trying to rid them of a few stalwart "revisionist
> > scholars." Is this correct, Mr. Raven? Is Berg now running the IHR?
> > ("No antisemites here, nosirreebob!")
> 
> Your rumors are as accurate as your other information. Fritz Berg has
> nothing to do with the running of the IHR, period.

That's funny, because this "rumor" appeared in one of the premier
fascist magazines of our time, "Spotlight."  Isn't Spotlight published
by Liberty Lobby or one of Carto's other groups?  Obviously Carto takes
great delight in pointing out how Mr. Raven and his colleagues have
screwed up the management of the premier Holocaust-denying organization
of our time -- sour grapes, I suspect.  But I don't know why he would
make this stuff up:

   Another Faurisson foe is self-appointed "IHR director" Fritz Berg...
   
   And, oh yes, Fritz Berg has also been conspiring to fire Mark Weber
   as editor of the _Journal_, much to Weber's disgust and dismay,
   even though both are now in the soup together.

      (Spotlight, June 5th, 1995, p. 10.)

Comment, Mr. Raven?

Posted and emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy       k044477@kzoo.edu       jrm0@aol.com
 http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/    I speak only for myself.


From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Jul  2 15:42:51 PDT 1995
Article: 23009 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls? It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 30 Jun 1995 02:39:56 GMT
Lines: 28
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In message <3si3bm$c14@gwdu19.gwdg.de> - uroessl1@gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich) 
writes:
:>
:>I'm not aware of any such example, moreover, the very semantic of 
:>"ausrotten", which means in any case "to destroy completely", doesn't 
:>yield the alleged usage. Actually, this was amply demonstrated here 
:>with examples and definitions from dictionaries in many threads, 
:>apparently you didn't notice this. The quotation above clearly
:>states that the Nazis did speak about extermination, physical destruction,
:>and killing when using the word "ausrotten". As far my knowledge of the
:>German language is concerned, I see no way a German speaker could 
:>misunderstand the word "ausrotten".
:>
:>In case you cannot come up with such an example or quotation, 
:>and do not retract your insinuation, your "methodology" is once again
:>exposed as nonsensical propaganda, to put it mildly.

"Mildly" is right.  A craven, gutless, dishonest, cowardly, stupid evasion of 
the facts, deliberate misquoting and editing, and chicken-shit hit-and-run 
tactics would be a less elegant, but nonetheless accurate assessment of Mr. 
Raven's modus operandi.


Gord McFee 

"I'll write no line before its time"




From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Jul  2 15:42:54 PDT 1995
Article: 23011 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's contempt for the net's users
Date: 30 Jun 1995 02:40:06 GMT
Lines: 77
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In message <3soc14$q0c@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> - kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
 McVay OBC) writes:
:>
:>In article <3sn4hl$3hi9@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
:>Gord McFee  comments on Greg "I'm only in it for the
:>money" Raven's reassertion that...
:>
:>"Even Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have abandoned 
:>Hoess. You would do well to emulate them."
:>
:>>I assume you would claim that Robert Ley's verbatim testimony has also been 
:>>"corrected"?  Eichmann's interrogation?  His testimony at his trial?  
:>>Goebbels' diaries?  Goering's "Endloesung" decree?  Hitler's public 
:>>utterances and table talk?  Himmler's _taped_ speech at Posen?  Give it up, 
:>>Greg, you look more silly with each statement you make.
:>
:>The amusing thing to note here is that Mr. "Hitler was a swell guy"
:>Raven made an identical claim in April of 1994, and that his claim
:>was shown to be a blatant lie.

Why am I not in the least surprised?

:>
:>Like Dan Gannon, and others before him, Mr. Raven brings to UseNet
:>the neonazi contempt for the intelligence of the general UseNet
:>readership.
:>
:>Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven makes claims. 
:>
:>Those claims are shown to be complete bullshit - fabrications,
:>misrepresentations, outright lies.
:>
:>Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven backs off, refusing to discuss the matter
:>further... after all, the evidence was so clearly against him, and
:>so clearly exposed him for the liar that he is, that there was
:>nothing more to say.
:>
:>Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven waits, perhaps until he has convinced
:>himself that it is time to recycle the same tired old lie once
:>again, in the hope that a new group of users, unfamiliar with the
:>facts of the matter, will swallow his crap.
:>
:>In this case, Mr. Raven waited a full 15 months before repeating the
:>lie.
:>
:>Alas, Mr. Raven's lie is as simple to expose now as it was then..
:>easier, actually, since the homework has been done, the facts are
:>in, and there is little to do but to restate the facts.
:>
:>That, however, would spoil the fun. First, it would be amusing to
:>demand that Mr. Raven produce his documentation, his "single best
:>evidence," to coin a phrase from the "revisionist scholar's
:>handbook," written by nonother than our Hitler-admiring friend Mr.
:>Raven.

I expect you won't see him for another 15 months after that request!

:>
:>After Mr. Raven produces his documentation, others will produce the
:>clearly documented proof that Mr. Raven is, once again, nothing more
:>or less than a blatant liar.
:>
:>Then Mr. Raven will abandon the issue for another 15 months...
:>before raising it yet again as a "great revisionist truth."
:>
:>No wonder the IHR's in trouble. 

Yup, and Hitler is crying in Hell when he looks out and sees the sorry mess 
of losers that are supposed to resurrect him.



Gord McFee 

"I'll write no line before its time"




From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Jul  2 22:40:20 PDT 1995
Article: 23007 of alt.revisionism
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From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls?  It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 30 Jun 1995 02:39:41 GMT
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3svo5d$2d2n@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu> 
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In message <3skq3k$r0a@agate.berkeley.edu> - schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richa
rd Schultz) writes:
:>
:>In article ,
:>Greg Raven  wrote:
:>>In article <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
:>>(Richard Schultz) wrote:
:>
:>>> Now, if "ausrotten" simply means to "uproot", why does Ley go on to say
:>>> "Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern" (It is not enough to
:>>> separate out the Jews)?
:>
:>>I don't speak German, but from what I understand, even Robert Wolfe
:>>(Formerly?) of the National Archives freely admits that "ausrotten" means
:>>"uproot."
:>
:>
:>Let me repeat my question, since you appear to have missed it the first 
:>time.  If "ausrotten" means "uproot," why does Ley specifically add that
:>"Es is nicht genug, den Juden. . . auszugliedern"?  

Richard, I am convinced that Greg got your question the first time.  He 
simply chose not to answer it.  That's about what we would expect.



Gord McFee 

"I'll write no line before its time"




From k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu Sun Jul  2 22:40:23 PDT 1995
Article: 23008 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: misc.test,alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!kzoo!k044477
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: So what _is_ Fritz Berg up to?
Message-ID: <1995Jun30.023735.1524@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006
References: 
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 02:37:35 GMT
Lines: 34
Xref: news.port.island.net misc.test:61576 alt.revisionism:23008

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:

> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
> > Rumour has it that our friend Fritz Berg is cracking the whip at the
> > IHR, and trying to rid them of a few stalwart "revisionist
> > scholars." Is this correct, Mr. Raven? Is Berg now running the IHR?
> > ("No antisemites here, nosirreebob!")
> 
> Your rumors are as accurate as your other information. Fritz Berg has
> nothing to do with the running of the IHR, period.

That's funny, because this "rumor" appeared in one of the premier
fascist magazines of our time, "Spotlight."  Isn't Spotlight published
by Liberty Lobby or one of Carto's other groups?  Obviously Carto takes
great delight in pointing out how Mr. Raven and his colleagues have
screwed up the management of the premier Holocaust-denying organization
of our time -- sour grapes, I suspect.  But I don't know why he would
make this stuff up:

   Another Faurisson foe is self-appointed "IHR director" Fritz Berg...
   
   And, oh yes, Fritz Berg has also been conspiring to fire Mark Weber
   as editor of the _Journal_, much to Weber's disgust and dismay,
   even though both are now in the soup together.

      (Spotlight, June 5th, 1995, p. 10.)

Comment, Mr. Raven?

Posted and emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy       k044477@kzoo.edu       jrm0@aol.com
 http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/    I speak only for myself.


From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Jul  2 22:40:25 PDT 1995
Article: 23009 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What time is it, boys and girls? It's AUSROTTEN time!
Date: 30 Jun 1995 02:39:56 GMT
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <3svo5s$2d2n@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References: <3sf0fr$kuc@agate.berkeley.edu> 
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In message <3si3bm$c14@gwdu19.gwdg.de> - uroessl1@gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich) 
writes:
:>
:>I'm not aware of any such example, moreover, the very semantic of 
:>"ausrotten", which means in any case "to destroy completely", doesn't 
:>yield the alleged usage. Actually, this was amply demonstrated here 
:>with examples and definitions from dictionaries in many threads, 
:>apparently you didn't notice this. The quotation above clearly
:>states that the Nazis did speak about extermination, physical destruction,
:>and killing when using the word "ausrotten". As far my knowledge of the
:>German language is concerned, I see no way a German speaker could 
:>misunderstand the word "ausrotten".
:>
:>In case you cannot come up with such an example or quotation, 
:>and do not retract your insinuation, your "methodology" is once again
:>exposed as nonsensical propaganda, to put it mildly.

"Mildly" is right.  A craven, gutless, dishonest, cowardly, stupid evasion of 
the facts, deliberate misquoting and editing, and chicken-shit hit-and-run 
tactics would be a less elegant, but nonetheless accurate assessment of Mr. 
Raven's modus operandi.


Gord McFee 

"I'll write no line before its time"




From gmcfee@ibm.net Sun Jul  2 22:40:28 PDT 1995
Article: 23011 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raven's contempt for the net's users
Date: 30 Jun 1995 02:40:06 GMT
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <3svo66$2d2n@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
References:  <3sn4hl$3hi9@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In message <3soc14$q0c@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> - kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
 McVay OBC) writes:
:>
:>In article <3sn4hl$3hi9@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>,
:>Gord McFee  comments on Greg "I'm only in it for the
:>money" Raven's reassertion that...
:>
:>"Even Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have abandoned 
:>Hoess. You would do well to emulate them."
:>
:>>I assume you would claim that Robert Ley's verbatim testimony has also been 
:>>"corrected"?  Eichmann's interrogation?  His testimony at his trial?  
:>>Goebbels' diaries?  Goering's "Endloesung" decree?  Hitler's public 
:>>utterances and table talk?  Himmler's _taped_ speech at Posen?  Give it up, 
:>>Greg, you look more silly with each statement you make.
:>
:>The amusing thing to note here is that Mr. "Hitler was a swell guy"
:>Raven made an identical claim in April of 1994, and that his claim
:>was shown to be a blatant lie.

Why am I not in the least surprised?

:>
:>Like Dan Gannon, and others before him, Mr. Raven brings to UseNet
:>the neonazi contempt for the intelligence of the general UseNet
:>readership.
:>
:>Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven makes claims. 
:>
:>Those claims are shown to be complete bullshit - fabrications,
:>misrepresentations, outright lies.
:>
:>Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven backs off, refusing to discuss the matter
:>further... after all, the evidence was so clearly against him, and
:>so clearly exposed him for the liar that he is, that there was
:>nothing more to say.
:>
:>Like Dan Gannon, Mr. Raven waits, perhaps until he has convinced
:>himself that it is time to recycle the same tired old lie once
:>again, in the hope that a new group of users, unfamiliar with the
:>facts of the matter, will swallow his crap.
:>
:>In this case, Mr. Raven waited a full 15 months before repeating the
:>lie.
:>
:>Alas, Mr. Raven's lie is as simple to expose now as it was then..
:>easier, actually, since the homework has been done, the facts are
:>in, and there is little to do but to restate the facts.
:>
:>That, however, would spoil the fun. First, it would be amusing to
:>demand that Mr. Raven produce his documentation, his "single best
:>evidence," to coin a phrase from the "revisionist scholar's
:>handbook," written by nonother than our Hitler-admiring friend Mr.
:>Raven.

I expect you won't see him for another 15 months after that request!

:>
:>After Mr. Raven produces his documentation, others will produce the
:>clearly documented proof that Mr. Raven is, once again, nothing more
:>or less than a blatant liar.
:>
:>Then Mr. Raven will abandon the issue for another 15 months...
:>before raising it yet again as a "great revisionist truth."
:>
:>No wonder the IHR's in trouble. 

Yup, and Hitler is crying in Hell when he looks out and sees the sorry mess 
of losers that are supposed to resurrect him.



Gord McFee 

"I'll write no line before its time"




From jwccti1@aol.com Fri Jul 21 20:18:36 PDT 1995
Article: 24021 of alt.revisionism
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From: jwccti1@aol.com (JWCCTI1)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter Update
Date: 20 Jul 1995 21:14:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven), our local embarrassment, said


>  Fred Leuchter has not
>  even visited the IHR offices for many, many months. It should go
without
>  saying that he does not live there.

> -- 
>  Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
>  Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
>  The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
>   P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659

Say, Greg, that would be right down the street on Newport Blvd., wouldn't
it?
Aren't you a little trashy to be in Costa Mesa?   

I hear Fritzl's taking over.  Hoo boy, what's one more paranoid on the ol'
budget, eh?!


Jim Collier
Costa Mesa, Calif.



From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Jul 23 16:45:29 PDT 1995
Article: 24130 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Date: 22 Jul 1995 15:19:08 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <3s2rqj$3csa@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <3s38ld$6ev@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <1995Jun29.125758.23994@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3sv213$7u1@larry.cc.emory.edu> <1995Jun30.160558.25920@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3t2imt$bj7@larry.cc.emory.edu> <1995Jul3.125209.27166@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3u3kur$839@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <1995Jul14.164930.14119@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3udoer$kjl@dscomsa.desy.de> <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>
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In article <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>, Poser@vxdsyc.desy.de wrote:

>  Nationalsozialismus was a capitalists wet dream.
> 
> |>   *Eric Florack                                       *

I think the situation was more nuanced than that. Hitler was able to pull
Germany out of a very bad economic situation in a relatively short time
without resorting to rearmament to the extent that Roosevelt did, but he
did so largely via deficit spending. Had the Third Reich survived the war,
it would have been very interesting to see if they could have continued
their economic "miracle."

Aside from that, however, from what I can tell Hitler had the support of
the common people of Germany. It is obvious that people will be more
willing to sacrifice for the "common good" if they feel that it 1) has
something in common with them, and 2) seems good. By unifying the German
people and driving out foreign elements, Hitler united the people in a way
that is difficult to imagine in these "multi-cultural" times. Thus, people
were more willing to pitch in at all levels, and coersion was not
necessary.

It might also help if you define what you call "capitalism," as it comes
in several flavors. There is international capitalism, national
capitalism, monopoly capitalism, etc.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Jul 23 16:45:32 PDT 1995
Article: 24131 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A DAY AT AUSCHWITZ WITH DR
Date: 22 Jul 1995 15:30:22 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References: <279443801wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>  <805912930snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <1995Jul17.231906@miavx1> <806071980snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <3uhb6n$16vi@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> <806192657snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan094.kaiwan.com

In article <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de>, uroessl1@gwdg.de (Roessler 
Ulrich) wrote:

> Alexander Baron  writes:
> 
> >In article <3uhb6n$16vi@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
> >           jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca "John Morris" writes:
> 
> >> In article <806071980snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk 
> >> says...
> >> Preciousness is no substitute for argument, Al, not for you or for 
> >> Staeglich. There were 52 crematory furnaces at Auschwitz each capable of 
> >> incinerating 2-3 bodies at a time. SS estimates were for an incineration 
> >> capacity in excess of 4,000 bodies per day. Seen the photos; seen the 
> >> memos. Or are you going to add these to your (very convenient) list of 
> >> fakes and forgeries?
> 
> >Sure there were. Staeglich has some harsh words to say about this "evidence",
> >which turned out to be one document at Nuremberg. I have no idea how many
> >documents were adduced after that; I suspect though that they are of as
> >much value as the testament of Rudolph Hoess.
>                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> In short, Mr Baron doesn't know anything about the rather well documented 
> construction work done in Auschwitz. But even better, he writes about
> a "testament of Rudolph Hoess" - while Hoess in reality wrote memoirs 
> and several shorter memorands about different subjects, e.g. about 
> Himmler while awaiting his trial in Poland. The handwritten manuscripts
> are still in the Polish archives and could be checked against a handwritten
> curriculum vitae by Hoess which is in Hoess' SS-file in the Berlin Document
> Center. (see the edition of Hoess' memoirs by M.Broszat).
> 
> Moreover, firstly Hoess testified basically the same in Nuremberg, 
> and he had several interviews with the psychologist G.M.Gilbert there 
> (see G.M.Gilbert's  _Nuremberg diary_) Gilbert describes him as 
> a cooperative and eager witness in his own case. Apparently, Hoess 
> wanted to represent himself by diminishing his role to that of one 
> faithful soldier obeying only to orders from above. But Hoess didn't 
> try to conceal any facts about Auschwitz. Taking all this together, 
> it is naturally difficult to explain away the evidence produced only by
> Hoess's behaviour and writings during the time of these trials.

Re: the crematories. These crematories did not have the ability to
incinerate in excess of 4,000 bodies per day. For details, see Carlo
Mattogno's "Auschwitz: The End of a Legend." published by the Institute
for Historical Review. As Dr. Butz has said, just because a car has a top
speed of 120 miles per hour doesn't mean it will only take you 30 minutes
to drive the 60 miles to your relative's house this Thanksgiving.

Also, Hoess is unreliable as a witness. In his affidavit and in his
testimony, he states things that are not true. It doesn't matter how many
times he stated these things, or in what form he stated them, they are
still not true. Both Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have stated
(Vanity Fair, December 1993) that Hoess was an unreliable witness. The
bottom line is that just because Hoess said something about Auschwitz,
this does not mean that these utterances are automatically "facts."

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Sun Jul 23 16:45:35 PDT 1995
Article: 24132 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!rahul.net!a2i!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan094.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JLupton's Amazing Assertion
Date: 22 Jul 1995 15:23:34 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References: <3uhcrj$jh8@news.cais.com> <3ui8vr$675@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3uoh6t$m2q@news.ios.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan094.kaiwan.com

In article <3uoh6t$m2q@news.ios.com>, jonathan@soho.ios.com (jonathan
edelstein) wrote:

> JWCCTI1 (jwccti1@aol.com) wrote:
> : Big deal.  So, if  US aid were to disappear, Israel would have an economic
> : downturn about as severe as a mild recesssion in the U.S.  The current
> : foreign aid is an even smaller percentage of GDP.  It currently runs 2-4%
> : of GDP.  If all U.S. aid were suddently removed, specific enterprises
> : would be hurt, but the overall effect on the economy would be negligible. 
> 
> The effect would be even less than that, because the majority of American 
> aid to Israel comes in the form of credits for military hardware that 
> must be redeemed in the United States. In other words, most of our aid to 
> Israel comes right back here rather than creating jobs or stimulating the 
> economy over there. The total annual contribution by the United States to 
> the Israeli economy is no more than a few hundred million, or less than 1 
> percent of Israeli GDP.

This is not accurate. If it were possible for the government to stimulate
the economy by taxing (or inflating) money away from the taxpayers, and
then spending it in the economy, they could quickly make the US a
monstrously powerful nation. When the government taxes (or inflates) and
then spends, whatever the mechanism, it creats discontinuities in the
marketplace, and the inefficiency of the process results in a net loss all
the way around. The fact that the credit goes to Israel instead of staying
here at home makes no difference. It is simply not possible to bootstrap
an economy the way you imply.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From kmcvay@nanaimo.island.net Sun Jul 23 16:45:53 PDT 1995
Article: 24154 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.island.net!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nanaimo.island.net (Ken McVay)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Raven's lying again...
Date: 22 Jul 1995 17:12:13 -0700
Organization: Island Internet Inc. - (604) 753-2383
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <3us44t$gca@nanaimo.island.net>
References: <279443801wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <806192657snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: epaus.island.net

In article ,
Greg Raven Also, Hoess is unreliable as a witness. In his affidavit and in his
>testimony, he states things that are not true. It doesn't matter how many
>times he stated these things, or in what form he stated them, they are
>still not true. Both Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have stated
>(Vanity Fair, December 1993) that Hoess was an unreliable witness. The
>bottom line is that just because Hoess said something about Auschwitz,
>this does not mean that these utterances are automatically "facts."

Horsepucky. Mr. Raven knows full well, because it has been demonstrated here
again and again, that Professor Lipstadt said no such thing. Hoess isn't
even listed in the Index. The article Mr. Raven refers to is archived
here and there, but that's not important. At least not as important
as the fact that Mr. Raven lies about Browning, too. Browning did _not_ say
that Hoess was "unreliable as a witness," and I challenge him to demonstrate
that he did.

Raven first raised this nonsense in April of last year, then, having
received a thorough drubbing, dropped it, as he always does. He recently
raised the issue again, not more than a month or so back, and  has yet to
respond to my previous challenge.

Why? Because the lies are so simple to expose, and Mr. Raven knows it. All
you need to do is read Browning's words, and then read Mr. Raven's words,
then trot out your Lipstadt and try and find Hoess.

Game, set, match.











-- 
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca	kmcvay@mala.bc.ca
kmcvay@epaus.island.net		kmcvay@port.island.net
The Nizkor Project		Vancouver Island, B.C.


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 04:41:42 PDT 1995
Article: 159826 of talk.politics.guns
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Date: 22 Jul 1995 15:19:08 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <3s2rqj$3csa@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <3s38ld$6ev@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <1995Jun29.125758.23994@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3sv213$7u1@larry.cc.emory.edu> <1995Jun30.160558.25920@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3t2imt$bj7@larry.cc.emory.edu> <1995Jul3.125209.27166@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3u3kur$839@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <1995Jul14.164930.14119@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3udoer$kjl@dscomsa.desy.de> <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>
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Xref: news.port.island.net talk.politics.misc:212972 talk.politics.guns:159826 soc.culture.jewish:107582 misc.legal:76165 alt.revisionism:24130 alt.politics.org.batf:5014 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:184211 alt.conspiracy:72489

In article <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de>, Poser@vxdsyc.desy.de wrote:

>  Nationalsozialismus was a capitalists wet dream.
> 
> |>   *Eric Florack                                       *

I think the situation was more nuanced than that. Hitler was able to pull
Germany out of a very bad economic situation in a relatively short time
without resorting to rearmament to the extent that Roosevelt did, but he
did so largely via deficit spending. Had the Third Reich survived the war,
it would have been very interesting to see if they could have continued
their economic "miracle."

Aside from that, however, from what I can tell Hitler had the support of
the common people of Germany. It is obvious that people will be more
willing to sacrifice for the "common good" if they feel that it 1) has
something in common with them, and 2) seems good. By unifying the German
people and driving out foreign elements, Hitler united the people in a way
that is difficult to imagine in these "multi-cultural" times. Thus, people
were more willing to pitch in at all levels, and coersion was not
necessary.

It might also help if you define what you call "capitalism," as it comes
in several flavors. There is international capitalism, national
capitalism, monopoly capitalism, etc.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:07:20 PDT 1995
Article: 24173 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Why Does Greg Love Adolf? (Re: JLupton's Amazing Assertion)
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <3uhcrj$jh8@news.cais.com> <3ui8vr$675@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3uoh6t$m2q@news.ios.com> 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 02:17:52 GMT
Lines: 26

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

[...]

So, can "revisionist scholar" Greg Raven tell us why he
loves Hitler so much? Why is it so difficult to answer a
simple question?



 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST

My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not
interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of
our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect,
but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.




-Danny Keren.



From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:07:23 PDT 1995
Article: 24174 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: A DAY AT AUSCHWITZ WITH DR
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <279443801wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de>  
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 02:32:03 GMT
Lines: 37

Good question, Kevin, but do you think any revisionazi
will answer you?

According to them, about 80,000 people died in Auschwitz
during all the war.

Let's do a little calculation here... 80,000 corpses
divided by the number of days and by the number of
furnaces (assuming 5 years over which the deaths took
place):

80000/(5*365*52) = 0.84299

which means our revisionazis claim that one furnace could
cremate less than one corpse a day on the average!!

Of course, it could cremate many corpses, and let's not
forget the fact that many of the deportees were children
and infants.

And there are more questions - why 5 huge crematoriums in a
"work camp"? The revisionazis claim it was to take care of
victims of typhus. But, whatever the reason was, people were
dying at an incredible rate in Auschwitz-Birkenau, so why did
they keep sending them there?

One of the volumes of the "book of death" survived. Remember,
it lists only those who died *after* being admitted into the
camp, not those gassed upon arrival. Nontheless, during a mere
five days in September 1942, it lists 1,500 deaths.

Why did they keep sending people to this death factory if
they didn't want to kill them?


-Danny Keren.



From bzs@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:07:32 PDT 1995
Article: 24186 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: JLupton's Amazing Assertion
In-Reply-To: jwccti1@aol.com's message of 22 Jul 1995 17:49:47 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	<3urrpr$net@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 04:39:38 GMT
Lines: 33


From: jwccti1@aol.com (JWCCTI1)
>In fact, Israel wouldn't collapse at all with a cutoff of U.S. aid,

Actually, if any of these people held references half as dear as they
hold their simplistic views they'd know that US aid to Israel was
nearly non-existant until around 1972. How in the world did Israel
survive its most tumultous years, 1948-1972, without US aid? I realize
people who simply want to believe otherwise don't want to even ask
that question, let alone deal with the facts.

In fact, Israel hasn't even had any real wars since US aid started
(perhaps not unrelated, but a bad effect?) Nixon started aid flowing
at the very end of the so-called "Yom Kippur War", but it was
basically over already by the time anything arrived, it didn't make
much difference to the outcome other than perhaps it disheartened the
participants (I'll grant that possibility, but I believe it was
actually the USSR who pulled the plug on Egypt and Syria at the time
which was the more important event in ending that one.)

I suppose one could toss about the possibility that US aid has staved
off further attacks on Israel. I wouldn't discount that. But then
again the 1948, 1956, 1969 and 1972 wars previous to that aid didn't
really end as some of the combatants had hoped. So perhaps all that's
been staved off is more senselessness. Some young men and women on
both sides of this have grown to maturity since 1972 where otherwise
they might not have. But the globe still turns.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From bzs@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:07:36 PDT 1995
Article: 24190 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: JLupton's Amazing Assertion
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 22 Jul 1995 15:23:34 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3uhcrj$jh8@news.cais.com> <3ui8vr$675@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
	<3uoh6t$m2q@news.ios.com>
	
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 04:30:13 GMT
Lines: 49


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>> The effect would be even less than that, because the majority of American 
>> aid to Israel comes in the form of credits for military hardware that 
>> must be redeemed in the United States. In other words, most of our aid to 
>> Israel comes right back here rather than creating jobs or stimulating the 
>> economy over there. The total annual contribution by the United States to 
>> the Israeli economy is no more than a few hundred million, or less than 1 
>> percent of Israeli GDP.
>
>This is not accurate. If it were possible for the government to stimulate
>the economy by taxing (or inflating) money away from the taxpayers, and
>then spending it in the economy, they could quickly make the US a
>monstrously powerful nation. When the government taxes (or inflates) and
>then spends, whatever the mechanism, it creats discontinuities in the
>marketplace, and the inefficiency of the process results in a net loss all
>the way around. The fact that the credit goes to Israel instead of staying
>here at home makes no difference. It is simply not possible to bootstrap
>an economy the way you imply.

Mr Raven sounds almost as silly talking about macroeconomics as he
does talking about the holocaust.

Mr Raven seems to have missed, as per usual, all the actual events of
the past 50-75 years and instead has a "better" theory independent of
the realities.

Economics is less the study of static wealth and more the study of the
ebb and flow of wealth. It is only when wealth flows that it does an
economy much good, or is even much the subject of economics.

As to your specific point, indeed you cannot tax beyond the wealth
that exists. But where there is a stagnation in the flow of wealth
taxation does get some of that money circulating again. It's not
extrapolatable to unbounded limits (as you seem to present as a
reductio ad absurdum disproof), but where there is a lack, such as
during an economic depression, an economy can be brought back towards
a healthily operating middle by some artificial means such as
taxation. Another method is the lowering of interest rates, as we are
seeing in our current era. It depends on where the clog is, basically.




-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 09:07:46 PDT 1995
Article: 24195 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan075.kaiwan.com!user
From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The US Holocaust Museum - A dangerous and costly mistake
Date: 23 Jul 1995 04:59:52 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 353
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan075.kaiwan.com

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A costly and dangerous mistake

by Theodore J. OıKeefe

Hard by the Washington Monument, within clear view of the Jefferson
Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
America, a costly and dangerous mistake. On ground where no monument yet
marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
version of the ordeal in Europe, during World War II, of non-American
members of a minority, sectarian group. Now, in the deceptive guise of
tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
campaign, financed through the unwitting largesse of the American
taxpayer, in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.

How did the federal government allow the creation of such a monstrosity?
What is its meaning for American policy and for American values? And what
must the American people do to regain control of the land their servants
in Washington handed over to a foreign interest, and to establish an
enterprise thereon, whether a museum or otherwise, informed by and
conducted according to American principles and interests?

Origins

In the late 1970s, during the presidency of James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, a
propaganda campaign to promote the "Holocaust," the alleged systematic
slaughter of some six million Jews by the Germans during the Second World
War, was organized and carried out from Hollywood and New York. As
Benjamin Meed, an important functionary of the council which controls the
Holocaust museum, wrote in 1990:

Almost a dozen years ago, a new phenomena [sic] developed. The Holocaust
was introduced into schools, colleges, and universities. Television
broadcast programs on the Holocaust and millions of Americans watched
them. Soon, Americans took great interest in the lessons of the Holocaust,
its uniqueness and its universal message. (note 1)

Why the urgency of this campaign? Two factors were paramount: first, the
beginnings, more than three decades after the end of the Second World War,
of an objective scholarly assessment of the facts of the alleged German
policy to exterminate European Jewry. (note 2)

Second, the need to justify Zionist theory and practice in the face of
unprecedented international resistance to Israeli intransigence (including
the famous UN General Assembly Resolution which equated Zionism with
racism), and to defend Israelıs aggressive policy under the leadership of
the former terrorist, Prime Minister Menachem Begin. (note 3)

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council

In 1978 President Carter, his administration beleaguered at home and
abroad, succumbed to pressure from the new "Holocaust" lobby (and thus
Americaıs influential Israel-first minority) by creating, through
executive order, the Presidentıs Commission on the Holocaust. Two years
later, on 7 October 1987, Congress passed -- unanimously -- a law
establishing the United States Holocaust Memorial Council, charged
principally with constructing and overseeing the operation of "a permanent
living memorial to the victims of the holocaust" and with providing "for
appropriate ways for the Nation to commemorate the Days of Remembrance, as
an annual, national, civic commemoration of the Holocaust ..." (note 4)

A priceless tract of public land was turned over to the Council, and,
after years of costly delay (during which the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Councilıs budget swelled from $2.5 million to over $18 million a year),
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum has been completed and readied for
opening on 22 April 1993.

A sectarian, alien agenda

The Holocaust Memorial Council, besides soliciting tens of millions of
dollars in tax-deductible donations to finance the Holocaust museum, has
busied itself with promoting an agenda of unalloyed support for minority,
Zionist ends.

The membership of the Council, a U.S. federal agency, has been
overwhelmingly Jewish since its founding in 1980. The Councilıs two
different chairmen -- Elie Wiesel and Harvey Meyerhoff -- have both been
committed to the support of the State of Israel, and the chairs of the
Councilıs most important committees have been likewise Jewish and Zionist.

The chief fund-raiser for the Holocaust museum, Miles Lerman, was formerly
American vice chairman for the State of Israel Bonds Organization,
promoting tax-free investment in a country which receives by far the
largest amount of U.S. foreign aid per year. Working the same wealthy
Jewish-Americans he has long dealt with in his fund-raising for Israel,
Lerman has helped raise nearly $160 million in tax-deductible
contributions. The biggest donors have been rewarded by having various
components of the museum named for them, e.g. the Wexner Learning Center.

Nor is erecting and operating the Holocaust Memorial Museum the only
function with which the Holocaust Memorial Council has been charged.
Another of its duties is to commemorate the Days of Remembrance for
Victims of the Holocaust, which Congress has raised to "an annual,
national, civic commemoration of the Holocaust." Like the Israeli Yom
ha-shoah (Day of the Holocaust), on which they are based, the Days of
Remembrance are dated according to the lunar Hebrew calendar, and thus,
like Passover or Chanukah, fluctuate from year to year. These foreign days
of lamentation are currently celebrated, under the flag of the Republic,
to prayers and chants in Hebrew, in governmental settings from the Capital
Rotunda to city halls, across the land. Need it be stated that no group of
American victims of persecution, let alone another foreign group, enjoys
any such federally mandated and tax-supported day, or days, of
recognition?

The Holocaust Museumıs one-sided "history"

Although the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council during its early years made
noises about recognizing the ordeals of non-Jews during the Second World
War, by every indication from advance literature published by the Council
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is relentlessly Judeocentric. While,
according to a preliminary ground plan of the permanent exhibit, here and
there are nods to non-Jewish groups oppressed by the German National
Socialists (never to groups victimized by Germanyıs enemies, above all by
Stalinıs USSR), the larger holocaust of the Second World War, which
claimed an estimated 75 to 80 million lives around the world, is ignored
in preference to the Jewish ordeal. Thus, to cite just one telling
example, the Museumıs "Life before the Holocaust" exhibit refers strictly
to Jewish life before the Holocaust. (note 5)

Where, in fact, non-Jews figure in the Museum, they figure largely as
villains: the Germans and their allies and collaborators; the Western
allies, including America, who refused to accept a large immigration
before the war; the American political and military leaders who refused to
authorize costly bombing raids on the Auschwitz "gas chambers."

Red liberators?

The Museumıs message that support for Jews is the sole measure of decency
during the Second World War leads to anomalies which, in an American
museum raised on ground hallowed to the principles of liberty on which
this republic is based, can only be called shocking. That the victims of
World War II atrocities by the Allies -- massacres such as the firebombing
of Tokyo and Dresden, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the
Soviet slaughter of Polish prisoners at Katyn, the mass rapes carried out
by the Red Army at the warıs end -- receive no mention is deplorable. But
the Museumıs treatment of the armed forces which defended Stalinıs savage
Soviet tyranny is nothing short of grotesque.

In the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, Communists appear only in the guise
of "resistance fighters" and "liberators." For example, the submachine gun
and false papers of Samuel Weissberg, a Communist Party member who rose to
high rank in a Communist guerrilla group in North France, are on honored
display, no less precious a relic than the standard heaps of shoes and
hair, in the Museumıs permanent exhibit. (note 6)

Even more unsettling is the honor given to Stalinıs notorious Red Army,
which compiled a bloody and shameful record of atrocities across Europe
during, and after, the war. As the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Councilıs
newsletter fulsomely puts it, "Flags will hang in the museum to honor the
millions of Soviet soldiers who drove Nazi forces westward and who were
the first allied forces to liberate and publicize the existence of the
camps." In the words of Council chairman Harvey Meyerhoff, these martial
banners of the Red tyranny have a single association: "Much more than
simply wartime memorabilia, these military artifacts are a significant
contribution to memory, one that will remind future generations of the
pivotal role Soviet forces played in defeating Nazism ..." (note 7)

What must the millions of Americans originating or descending from the
European nations -- Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia -- for
which the Red "military artifacts" symbolized invasion, tyranny,
oppression, and persecution of religion think as they see the fierce
armies of their persecutors hailed as "liberators"?  

Israel in the museum

Just as one might guess from the circumstance that the Museumıs director,
Yeshayahu Weinberg, and the head of its "Learning Center," Yechiam Halevy,
were brought in from Israel, the Museumıs treatment of the state of Israel
is adulatory. An emotive tribute to the founding of Israel is an integral
part of the exhibition. That the establishment of Israel, and its
expansion in subsequent wars, has meant colonial occupation and oppression
for millions of the landıs native Palestinians, and dispossession and
exile for millions more, goes unmentioned -- another grotesquery in an
American museum supposed to instruct in the dangers of intolerance and
disregard of human rights. As for the momentous collaboration between
Hitlerıs German state and the Jewish Agency in the 1930s, which through
the Haıavara Agreement enabled the transfer of vital capital and the
influx of tens of thousands of highly skilled Jewish immigrants to
Palestine, that is passed over in utter silence. (note 8)

"Historical correctness"

The Holocaust Museumıs skewed history is not simply a matter of
one-sidedness and omission. The Museum has further committed itself to a
fixed and final interpretation of the surprisingly scanty and sometimes
suspect evidence for a German policy of annihilating European Jewry,
largely in gas chambers, in numbers approaching six million. This despite
a considerable body of research and scholarship that has arisen over past
two decades in many lands, and which contests, by academic means, the
substance of the Holocaust "extermination thesis." (note 9)

That the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council is aware of the work of the
revisionists is clear: the Councilıs literature is replete, not with
substantive refutations of revisionist scholarship, but with slander and
polemic. To cite one characteristic example, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Museum Newsletter of May 1992 featured a front-page attack on Holocaust
revisionism by Professor Deborah Lipstadt of Occidental College in which
the author decried the revisionists for producing material that looked
scholarly, then lauded the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum as "among the
most efficacious ways" of "combatting this pernicious trend," while
neglecting to specify a single error of revisionist scholarship. (note 10)

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council recognizes that there is a historical
debate on the Holocaust, but takes official notice of the dissenting
position only to attack it. That an American institution, supported by the
taxes of all Americans, should commit itself to inflexible historical
orthodoxy -- in the service of a single American minority -- is an
intolerable imposition on our First Amendment rights, as well as a mockery
of the Western, and American, ideal of objective scholarship.

A center for education?

U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council Chairman Harvey Meyerhoff has stated: "The
Museum is primarily an educational institution." (note 11) From the
Councilıs own literature, however, it is clear what Meyerhoff means by
education. The "role-playing" for children as well as adults who visit the
Museum (visitors are to be issued "identity cards" bearing the name and
alleged fate of various Holocaust victims); the high-tech computer and
video effects and the recordings of speech and music which augment the
Museumıs tendentiously described artifacts; and the Museumıs goal, as
proclaimed by its Zionist fund-raising chairman, Miles Lerman, of insuring
that "Children in Dubuque, families in Tucson, and schoolteachers in
Atlanta will learn the history and the lessons of Auschwitz as thoroughly
as they learn the history of their own communities": all these show that
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is a propaganda enterprise that seeks
to indoctrinate all Americans in a uniquely and partisanly Jewish (and
Zionist) version of not merely the past, but the present and the future.
(note 12)

The American response

What is the American response to a partisan museum constructed in a place
solemnly consecrated to the heroes and the values of our Republic, to be
lavishly operated with taxpayer dollars at a time when, even in our
countryıs capital, thousands sleep homeless in the shadow of our national
monuments? What is the American response to an ambitious propaganda agenda
that aims to impose a sectarian "Holocaust remembrance" in schools where
our children cannot pray, in town halls and federal buildings from which
the religious symbols of the majority are banned in the name of freedom of
worship?

Over two centuries ago, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "To compel a man to
furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he
disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." (note 13)

Nearly 140 years ago, Abraham Lincoln said: "I insist, that if there is
anything which it is the duty of the whole people to never entrust to any
hands but their own, that thing is the preservation and perpetuity of
their own liberties and institutions." (note 14)

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, and the Council which runs it, as
agencies of the government in which the American people is sovereign, must
be removed from the special interest that now controls it.

The scope and purpose of the Museum must be expanded, from its present
one-sided emphasis on foreign Jewish sufferings, real and imagined, in
Europe during the 1930s and 1940s to a compassionate yet realistic concern
for all victims, but above all for American victims, of historic
injustice.

The Museum must be made a place where American of every heritage, and
scholars of every viewpoint, may gather, educate, and be educated, without
accusation and in the absence of propaganda. Until it is, the men and
women who founded and built and suffered and fought and died for America,
of every race, nationality and creed, will rest uneasy.

NOTES

1. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter (Washington,
DC), August, 1990,"Survivors Play Major Role in Establishing the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum," p. 1. Meed is president of the American
Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, and chairman of the U.S. Holocaust
Memorial Councilıs Content and Days of Remembrance committees.

2. In 1976, Professor Arthur Butzıs book The Hoax of the Twentieth
Century: The Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry was
first published in England; in November of 1978 Professor Robert
Faurissonıs article "The Problem of the Gas Chambers" was published in the
Paris daily Le Monde. Professor Butz has commented on the simultaneous and
independent appearance of a variety of earlier academic criticisms of the
wartime propaganda version of Jewryıs ordeal in "The International
Holocaust Controversy," The Journal of Historical Review, Spring 1980, pp.
5-22.

3. By resolution of the United Nations General Assembly on November 10,
1975, Zionism was condemned as "a form of racism and racial
discrimination."

4. Public Law 96-388, § 1, October 7, 1980, 94 Stat. 1547.

5. Statements regarding the Museumıs permanent exhibit, except where
otherwise noted, are derived from the floor plan and photographs in United
States Holocaust Memorial Museum, a brochure published by the USHMC in
Washington, 1991.

6. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, Sept. 91, "French Resistance
Fighterıs Weapon Will Help Tell Story of Underground Movement," p. 4.

7. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, Fall 1992, "Russian Embassy
Presents Flags of Liberating Units to Museum," p. 6.

8. For the most complete account of relations between the Nazis and the
Zionists, see Francis Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question,
Austin: University of Texas, 1985. 

9. The most complete survey of Holocaust Revisionist writings to date is
Carlo Mattognoıs "The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews--Part II," in
The Journal of Historical Review, Fall 1988, pp. 261-302.

10. U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, May 1992, "Denying the
Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth," p.6.

11. US Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter, November 1991, "Wexner Family
Donates $5 Million to Fund Interactive Learning Center," p. 1.

12. The "identity cards" and other features of the Museum are described in
the brochure cited in note 5, above; Lermanıs statement was included in a
fund-raising letter sent by the Museum to potential Jewish contributors in
1991.

13. From "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom," 1779, in Jefferson:
Magnificent Populist, edited by Martin Larson, Greenwich, CN: Devin-Adair,
1981, p. 319.

14. "Speech at Peoria, Illinois," October 16, 1854, in The American
Intellectual Tradition, Vol. 1, edited by David Hollinger and Charles
Capper, New York: Oxford University Press, 1989, p. 382.

About the author

Theodore J. OıKeefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical Review.
He has published numerous articles on historical and political subjects.

The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials,
as well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a
packet of literature and full listing of books. Or, order copies of this
leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
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INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659, U.S.A.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 09:07:55 PDT 1995
Article: 24196 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Liberation of the Camps
Date: 23 Jul 1995 05:01:20 GMT
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The "Liberation of the Camps": FACTS vs. LIES

By Theodore J. O'Keefe

Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity of the
Holocaust in the minds of Americans than the terrible scenes U.S. GIs
discovered when they entered the German concentration camps at the close
of World War II.

At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention
camps, horrified American infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying
inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising stories
of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by showing the GI's
crematory ovens, alleged gas chambers, supposed implements of torture,
even shrunken heads and lampshades, gloves, and handbags purportedly made
>from  skin flayed from dead inmates.

U.S. government authorities, mindful that most Americans, who remembered
the atrocity stories fed them during World War I, still doubted the Allied
propaganda directed against the Hitler regime, resolved to "document" what
the GI's had found in the camps. Prominent newsmen and politicians were
flown in to see the harrowing evidence, while the U.S. Army Signal Corps
filmed and photographed the scenes for posterity. The famous journalist
Edward R. Murrow reported, in tones of horror, but no longer of disbelief,
what he had been told and shown, and Dachau and Buchenwald were branded on
the hearts and minds of the American populace as names of infamy unmatched
in the sad and bloody history of this planet.

For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps -- the dead and the
diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of torture
and terror -- became the basis not simply of a transitory propaganda
campaign but of the conviction that yes, it was true: the Germans did
exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas chambers. What
the GI's found was used, by way of films which were mandatory viewing for
the vanquished populace of Germany, to "re-educate" the German people by
destroying their national pride and their will to a united, independent
national state, imposing in their place overwhelming feelings of
collective guilt and political impotence. And when the testimony, and the
verdict, at Nuremberg incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories
Americans were told about Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by
the U.S. Army, the Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented,
one of the most authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes
in the human record.

A Different Reality

But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the camps,
American authorities were aware that the real story of the camps was quite
different from the one in which they were coaching military public
information officers, government spokesmen, politicians, journalists, and
other mouthpieces.

When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in
the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with discovering
and securing any evidence of German war crimes. Among them was Dr. Charles
Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned
to the Judge Advocate General's Department. Dr. Larson performed autopsies
at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more
than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for
three days by U.S. Army prosecutors. (note 1)

Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an American
journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews were
exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." (note 2) And what part was the
hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was
the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater,"
(note 3) informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that "never was
a case of poison gas uncovered." (note 4) Neither Dr. Larson nor any other
forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust historian to
substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether Zyklon-B or any
other variety.

Typhus, Not Poison Gas

If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald,
and Bergen- Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death? Deliberately
starved? The answers to these questions are known as well. As Dr. Larson
and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of death at
Dachau, Belsen, and the other camps was disease, above all typhus, an old
and terrible scourge of mankind which until recently flourished in places
where populations were crowded together in circumstances where public
health measures were unknown or had broken down. Such was the case in the
overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war's end, where, despite such
measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick, and cremation of
the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public
health systems led to catastrophe.

Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and
mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., a
professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the Harvard
University School of Public Health, who was with U.S. forces in Germany in
1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in concentration
camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered
in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for the outbreaks as
follows:

Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by
advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing
to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities
were seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor,
housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere lacking.
Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring such as few
countries and few times have experienced. (note 5)

Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a
psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered
to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a
Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who died at the
Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren't deliberately
starved to death but died from a rash of diseases." (note 6) Dr. Barton
further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of
deliberate starvations but had decided such stories were untrue after
inspecting the wellequipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained
ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.
Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the
contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of
extermination through starvation in the German camps.

No Lampshades, No Handbags, Etc.

What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for
their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other artifacts?
What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks," whipping posts,
gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are reported to have
abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and even more grotesque
ones profferred by Soviet prosecutors, found their way into the record at
Nuremberg.

The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch,
dubbed by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," who was reported to have
furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned hides of
luckless inmates. But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the U.S.
zone of occupied Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his
superiors in Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse
Koch] selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins
or that she possessed any articles made of human skin." (note 7) In an
interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about the material for
the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually that is was goat
flesh. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible
for her to have gotten a fair trial." (note 8) Ilse Koch hanged herself in
a West German jail in 1967.

It would be tedious to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre claims
as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German cruelty,
however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a legal
investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose statements on
the witness stand at Nuremberg have never been challenged by believers in
the Jewish Holocaust. Dr. Morgen informed the court that he had been given
full authority by Heinrich Himmler, commander of Hitler's SS and the dread
Gestapo, to enter any German concentration camp and investigate instances
of cruelty and corruption on the part of the camp staffs. According to Dr.
Morgen's sworn testimony at Nuremberg, he investigated 800 such cases, in
which over 200 convictions resulted. (note 9) Punishments included the
death penalty for the worst offenders, including Hermann Florstedt,
commandant of Lublin (Majdanek), and Karl Koch, Ilse's husband, commandant
of Buchenwald.

In reality, while camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical
punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and it
was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of the
prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual beating.
(note 10) After all, the camps were throughout most of the war important
centers of industrial activity. The good health and morale of the
prisoners was critical to the German war effort, as is evidenced by a 1942
order issued by SS-Brigadefuehrer Richard Gluecks, chief of the office
which controlled the concentration camps, which held camp commanders
"personally responsible for exhausting every possibility to preserve the
physical strength of the detainees." (note 11)

Concentration Camp Survivors Merely Victims?

U.S. Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps, quickly
ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates: that the
worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps were not the guards
but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same stripe as those
who populate U.S. prisons today committed many villainies, particularly
when they held positions of authority, and fanatical Communists, highly
organized to combat their many political enemies among the inmates,
eliminated their foes with Stalinist ruthlessness.

Two U.S. Army investigators at Buchenwald, Egon W. Fleck and Edward A.
Tenenbaum, carefully investigated circumstances in the camp before its
liberation. In a detailed report submitted to their superiors, they
revealed, in the words of Alfred Toombs, their commander, who wrote a
preface to the report, "how the prisoners themselves organized a deadly
terror within the Nazi terror." (note 12)

Fleck and Tenenbaum described the power exercised by criminals and
Communists as follows:

...The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist Germans,
had the power of life and death over all other inmates. They could
sentence a man or a group to almost certain death ... The Communist
trusties were directly responsible for a large part of the brutalities at
Buchenwald.

Colonel Donald B. Robinson, chief historian of the American military
government in Germany, summarized the Fleck-Tenenbaum report in an article
which appeared in The American Mercury shortly after the war. Colonel
Robinson wrote succinctly of the American investigators' findings: "It
appeared that the prisoners who agreed with the Communists ate; those who
didn't starved to death." (note 13)

Additional corroboration of inmate brutality has been provided by Ellis E.
Spackman, who, as Chief of Counter-Intelligence Arrests and Detentions for
the Seventh U.S. Army, was involved in the liberation of Dachau. Spackman,
later a professor of history at San Bernardino Valley College in
California, wrote in 1966 that at Dachau "the prisoners were the actual
instruments that inflicted the barbarities on their fellow prisoners."
(note 14)

"Gas Chambers"

On December 9, 1944 Col. Paul Kirk and Lt. Col. Edward J. Gully inspected
the German concentration camp at Natzweiler in Alsace. They reported their
findings to their superiors at the headquarters of the U.S. 6th Army
Group, which subsequently forwarded Kirk and Gully's report to the War
Crimes Division. While, significantly, the full text of their report has
never been published, it has been revealed, by an author supportive of
Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were careful to characterize
equipment exhibited to them by French informants as a "so-called lethal
gas chamber," and claim it was "allegedly used as a lethal gas chamber".
(note 15)

Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its effective
suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the confusion, and
the blaring publicity which accompanied official reports of alleged gas
chambers at Dachau. At first, a U.S. Army photo depicting a GI gazing
mournfully at a steel door marked with a skull and crossbones and the
German words for: "Caution! Gas! Mortal danger! Don't open!" was
identified as showing the murder weapon. Later, however, it was evidently
decided that the apparatus in question was merely a standard delousing
chamber for clothing, and another alleged gas chamber, this one cunningly
disguised as a shower room, was exhibited to American congressmen and
journalists as the site where thousands breathed their last. While there
exist numerous reports in the press as to the operation of this second
"gas chamber," no official report by trained Army investigators has yet
surfaced to reconcile such problems as the function of the shower heads:
Were they "dummies," or did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each
theory has appreciable support in journalistic and historiographical
literature.)

As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen- Belsen, and the other camps
captured by the Allies. There was no end of propaganda about "gas
chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far not a single detailed
description of the murder weapon and its function, not a single report of
the kind that is mandatory for the successful prosecution of any assault
or murder case in America at that time and today, has come to light.

Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly decreed
that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany after all!
All these things, we are told, were located in what is now Poland, in
areas captured by the Soviet Red Army and off-limits to Western
investigators. In 1960 Dr. Martin Broszat, who is now director of the
Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History, which is funded by the
West German government to support the Holocaust story, wrote a letter to
the German weekly Die Zeit in which he stated categorically: "Neither in
Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners
gassed." (note 16) Professional Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal wrote in 1975
that "there were no extermination camps on German soil." (note 17) And
Dachau "gas chamber" No. 2, which was once presented to a stunned and
grieving world as a weapon which claimed hundreds of thousands of lives,
is now described in the brochure issued to tourists at the modern Dachau
"memorial site" in these words: "This gas chamber, camouflaged as a shower
room, was not used." (note 18)

The Propaganda Intensifies

More than forty years after American troops entered Dachau, Buchenwald,
and the other German camps, and trained American investigators established
the facts as to what had gone on in them, the government in Washington,
the entertainment media in Hollywood, and the print media in New York
continue to churn out millions of words and images annually on the horrors
of the camps and the infamy of the Holocaust. Despite the fact that, with
the exception of the defeated Confederacy, no enemy of America has ever so
suffered so complete and devastating defeat as did Germany in 1945, the
mass media and the politicians and bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his
troops, and his concentration camps continue to exist in an eternal
present, and our opinion makers continue to distort, through ignorance or
malice, the facts about the camps.

Time for the Truth

It is time that the government and the professional historians revealed
the facts about Dachau, Buchenwald, and the other camps. It is time that
they let the American public know how the inmates died, and how they
didn't die. It is time that the claims as to mass murder by gassing were
clarified and investigated in the same manner as any other claims of
murder are dealt with. It is time that the free ride certain groups have
enjoyed as the result of unchallenged Holocaust claims be terminated, just
as it is time that other groups, including Germans, eastern Europeans, the
Roman Catholic hierarchy, and the wartime leadership of America and
Britain stop being scapegoated, either for their alleged role in the
Holocaust or their supposed failure to stop it.

Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great democratic Republic
have the facts about the camps, facts which they possess a right to know,
a right that is fundamental to the exercise of their authority and their
will in the governance of their country. As citizens and as taxpayers,
Americans of all ethnic backgrounds, of all faiths, have a basic right and
an overriding interest in determining the facts of incidents which are
deemed by those in positions of power to be determinative in America's
foreign policy, in its educational policy, in its selection of past events
to be memorialized in our civic life. The alleged facts of the Holocaust
are today at issue all over the civilized world: in Germany, in France, in
Italy, in Britain, in the Low Countries and Scandinavia, in Japan, across
our border in Canada and in the United States of America itself. The truth
will be decided only by recourse to the facts, in the public forum: not by
concealing the facts, denying the truth, stonewalling reality. The truth
will out, and it is time the government of this country, and governments
and international bodies throughout the world, made public and patent the
evidence of what actually transpired in the German concentration camps in
the years 1933-1945, so that we may put paid to the lies, without fear or
favor, and carry out the work of reconciliation and renewal that is and
must be the granite foundation of mutual tolerance between peoples and of
a peace based on justice, rather than on guns, barbed wire, prisons, and
lies.

NOTES

1. Crime Doctor, a biography of Larson by John D. McCallum, Mercer,
Washington & Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, 1979, p. 69.

2. Wichita Eagle, April 1, 1980, p. 4C.

3. Crime Doctor, p. 46.

4. Wichita Eagle, April 1, 1980, 4G.

5. John E. Gordon, "Louse-Borne Typhus Fever in the European Theater of
Operations, U.S. Army, 1945," in Forest Ray Moulton, Ed., Rickettsial
Diseases of Man, Am. Acad. for the Advancement of Science, Washington D.C.
1948.

6. Toronto Star, February 8, 1985, p. A2.

7. New York Times, 24 September 1948, p. 3.

8. Interview with Lucius Clay, Official Proceeding of the George C.
Marshall Research Foundation, cited in "Buchenwald: Legend and Reality,"
Mark Weber, The Journal of Historical Review, Vol. 7, no. 4.

9. International Military Tribunal, Vol. XVII, p. 556; IMT, Vol. XX, pp.
489, 438.

10. Cited in The Theory and Practice of Hell, Eugen Kogon, Berkley Books,
New York, pp. 108-109.

11. Nuremberg document NO-1523.

12. Buchenwald: A Preliminary Report, Egon W. Fleck and Edward A.
Tenenbaum, U.S. Army, 12th Army Group, 24 April 1945. National Archives,
Record Group 331, SHAEF, G-5, 17.11, Jacket 10, Box 151
(8929/163-8929/180).

13. "Communist Atrocities at Buchenwald," Donald B. Robinson, in American
Mercury, October 1946.

14. San Bernardino Sun-Telegram, March 13, 1966 (cited in The Man Who
Invented "Genocide," James J. Martin, Institute for Historical Review,
IHR, 1984, pp. 110-111.

15. "Concentration Camp at Natzwiller [sic]," RG 331, Records of Allied
Operations and Occupation, Army Headquarters WW2, SHAEF/G-5/2717, Modern
Military, National Archives, Washington, D.C., cited in Robert H. Abzug,
Inside the Vicious Heart, Oxford University Press, New York, 1985, p. 10,
p. 181.

16. Die Zeit, Hamburg, Germany, August 26, 1960.

17. Books & Bookmen, April 1975, Vol. 7, p. 5.

18. Leaflet, Memorial Site Concentration Camp Dachau, The International
Dachau-Committee, Dachau, Germany, n.d.

The conclusions of the early U.S. Army investigations as to the truth
about the wartime German concentration camps have since been corroborated
by all subsequent investigators and can be summarized:

1. The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result of a
German policy of "extermination," but rather the result of epidemics of
typhus and other disease brought about largely by the effects of Allied
aerial attacks.

2. Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and others
into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or amusement were
sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German authorities
consistently punished corruption and cruelty on the part of camp
commanders and guards.

3. On the other hand, the representations of the newly liberated inmates
to have been saints and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often very far
>from  the truth; indeed, most of the brutalities inflicted on camp
detainees were the work of their fellow prisoners, in contravention of
German policy and German orders.

4. The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers had been used either for
bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that they had
been used to murder Jews or other human beings is a contemptible
fabrication. Orthodox, Establishment historians and professional
"Natzi-hunters" have quietly dropped claims that inmates were gassed at
Dachau, Buchenwald, and other camps in Germany. They continue, however, to
keep silent regarding the lies about Dachau and Buchenwald, as well as to
evade an open discussion of the evidence for homicidal gassing at
Auschwitz and the other camps captured by the Soviets.

The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials,
as well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a
packet of literature and full listing of books. Or, orde copies of this
leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659, U.S.A.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:02 PDT 1995
Article: 24197 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Inside the 'Gas Chambers'
Date: 23 Jul 1995 05:02:11 GMT
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Inside the Auschwitz "Gas Chambers"

FRED A. LEUCHTER, Jr.

Introduction

1988 was a very informative and likewise disturbing year. I was appalled
to learn that much of what I was taught in school about twentieth-century
history and World War II was a myth, if not a lie. I was first amazed;
then annoyed; then aware: the myth of the Holocaust was dead.

Like all American children born during and after World War II, I was
taught about the genocide perpetrated by the Nazis on the Jews. By the
time I had reached college, I had no reason to disbelieve any of my
education, except that I had some problems swallowing the numbers of
decen-dents, said to total better than six million persons. But there it
stopped. I believed in the Nazi genocide. I had no reason to disbelieve.

Some twenty-four years later, a very believing engineer sat at his desk
working one snowy January afternoon in 1988, when the telephone rang. This
very believing engineer was about to receive a very shocking history
lesson, one which would cause him to question that fifty-year-old
Holocaust lie and the application of that lie to generations of children.
"Hello, this is Robert Faurisson"-- and that very believing engineer would
believe no more.

Background

I have for the past nine years worked with most, if not all of the states
in the United States having capital punishment. I design and manufacture
execution equipment of all types, including electrocution systems, lethal
injection equipment, gallows and gas-chamber hardware. 

I have consulted for, or supplied equipment to, most of the applicable
states and the federal government.

Because of my association with the states in this capacity, I was
recommended to the Zuendel defense as a consultant on gas chambers by
Warden Bill Armontrout of the Missouri State Penitentiary.

After answering my telephone on that cold January afternoon, I met with
Dr. Robert Faurisson twice in Boston and, as a result of these meetings, I
was summoned to Toronto to meet with Ernst Zuendel, attorney Douglas
Christie and the rest of Zuendel's very able staff.

Dr. Robert Faurisson had postulated thirteen years ago that a gas-chamber
specialist should be sought who could evaluate the alleged gas chambers in
Poland and report on their efficacy for execution purposes.

Valentine's Day weekend found myself and Carolyn, my wife of two weeks, in
Toronto. Two days of lengthy meetings followed, during which I was shown
photos of the alleged German gas chambers in Poland, German documents and
Allied aerial photographs. My examination of this material led me to
question whether these alleged gas chambers were, in fact, execution
facilities. I was asked if I would go to Poland and undertake a physical
inspection and forensic analysis resulting in a written evaluation of
these alleged execution gas chambers, some at places I had never even
heard of.

After due consideration, I agreed and made plans to leave for Poland,
awaiting a time of minimal snow covering. I also stated that although the
photos and documents seemed to support the view that these places were,
indeed, not execution facilities, I would reserve final judgement until
after my examination and, if I determined that these facilities were, in
fact, or could have been, execution gas chambers, I would state this in my
report. The final report was to be utilized as evidence in Ernst Zuendel's
defense in his pending criminal trial at Toronto, and I had to be prepared
to testify under oath.

Preparations for the trip required me to take sample bags, documentation
journals and tools. Because we were in a Communist country I would have to
be careful with the tools. Very few tourists carry hammers, chisels, star
drills and tape measures while travelling. I hid them in the lining of my
valise and hoped for the best. Further, I had maps of Poland,
Czechoslovakia and Austria, in the event that we might have to make a
hasty and unscheduled exit. And finally, the gifts with which we bribed
the museum people to supply us with copies of documents from the Museum
Archives.

Our Staff

I was fortunate to have a competent and dependable party of professionals:
my wife Carolyn, my general assistant; Mr. Howard Miller, draftsman; Mr.
Juergen Neumann, cinematographer; Mr. Tijudar Rudolf, interpreter. All
knew that, if caught, the Polish government would take a dim view of our
activities and purpose, let alone my removal of forensic samples from
national shrines and monuments.

And the two ex officio members of our party, Mr. Ernst Zuendel and Dr.
Robert Faurisson, who for obvious reasons could not accompany us in
person, but who nevertheless were with us every step of the way in spirit.

The Trip

On February 25, 1988, we left for Poland. Neumann and Rudolf, the Canadian
contingent, joined me and the remainder of our team in Frankfurt.

We arrived at Cracow in the late afternoon and spent our first night at
the Hotel Orbis. We consumed the first of our three decent meals while in
Poland. The following day we drove to Auschwitz. We arrived at the
Auschwitz Hotel and were greeted by the smell of sulphur napthal
disinfectant, a smell I had not encountered for many years. The hotel is
apparently the old officers' quarters for the camp. We ate lunch at the
Hotel dining room, a cafeteria style facility. This was our first
unidentifiable meal, starch soup and sundries.

We made a reconnaissance tour of the camp, lasting into the dim light of
the Polish afternoon and several snow squalls, a common occurrence. We ate
no supper, in that we found no place to eat in Auschwitz after sundown our
first evening.

Auschwitz and Birkenau

The following day we began our work in the alleged gas chamber at the
Auschwitz facility. Unfortunately, we were unable to accomplish much due
to constant interruptions by both official and unofficial Sunday tours.
Carolyn stood guard at one entrance and Tijudar at the other, advising
myself, Jurgen and Howard of their arrival. It was too dangerous to take
forensic samples and tape, so we left for Birkenau about noon.

At Birkenau we began a four-hour walk into the damp Polish cold and
through snow squalls so dense we could not see each other at a distance of
a few feet. Unfortunately, we did not expect to spend that much time
walking through the camp and, since vehicles are not permitted within the
camp, we left Carolyn behind in the car. Since we forgot to leave her the
keys, she nearly froze in the cold Polish afternoon. We visited the
barracks, Krematorien II, III, IV and V, the sauna and the alleged burning
pits. We took samples, documented our activities on video tape and in
still photos, and made scale drawings of these facilities, carefully
documenting the removal locations of all the forensic samples. We had to
break into the sauna building, since it was locked.

At Krema II, I descended into the depths of the alleged gas chamber, a
wet, dank subter-ranean place not visited by man in almost fifty years,
since the building had been reduced to rubble, probably by a German
military demolition team. Fortunately, there were fewer guards and less
pedestrian traffic, making working conditions considerably better than
they had been earlier, at Auschwitz.

Having been instructed by our empty stomachs of the evening before, we
found and ate at the restaurant at the bus station, the only legitimate
restaurant in Auschwitz. We returned to the Auschwitz Hotel for the night.

The following day, Monday, we again began our work at Auschwitz, the
Sunday tours having subsided. We were able to get our samples, tapes and
documentation. We had, by this time, obtained blueprints of the alleged
gas-chamber facility and were able to follow the structural changes back
to the dates in question. We also verified the existence of the floor
drain for the periods of alleged gas chamber usage. Upon completion at
Auschwitz, we drove again to Birkenau to take our control sample at
delousing facility 1. Unfortunately, the building was locked and again we
had to break and enter in order to access the delousing chamber. Again we
ate at the bus station, and retired early to the Auschwitz Hotel.

Tuesday morning, while awaiting Tijudar's unsuccessful attempt to obtain a
can of Zyklon B, Jurgen and I made video tapes of locations within the
camp. We moved from the Auschwitz Hotel to a hostel nearby, obtaining
newly vacated rooms. We ate at the bus station and retired early.

On Wednesday morning we ate a very enjoyable breakfast of ham, cheese and
bread (our second decent meal in Poland) and began our trip to Lublin to
see Majdanek. After one final look in at Auschwitz, we set off by car for
Majdanek.

Lublin (Majdanek)

Several hours later, we arrived at Majdanek, and visited the museum, the
reconstructed alleged gas chamber and crematory. We finally arrived at
disinfection 1 and 2 and examined the facilities. It was extremely
difficult to work, in that a guard made rounds every ten or fifteen
minutes. The alleged gas chambers were blocked by gates and not accessible
for a detailed inspection by the general public. It was necessary for me
to trespass beyond these gates in forbidden areas. Again Carolyn and
Tijudar stood watch while I made measurements and did a detailed
examination in these areas. Once we were caught short: I was forced to
hurdle the gate, and was still in the air and in mid-jump when the guard
entered. Fortunately, he was more interested in Jurgen and his camera to
see me before I touched ground.

Return

The camp closed in early afternoon and the guard rather nastily told us to
leave. By three o'clock we were en route to Warsaw, a trip which would
take five hours through rain and snow. Our hotel reservation had been
fouled up but fortunately, with the help of an embassy attache, we were
able to secure rooms at another hotel.

We had our third edible meal in Poland that evening and went to bed in
preparation for our trip home on Thursday. The following morning we had
breakfast and proceeded to the airport for our return trip.

We boarded the Polish airlines plane after clearing customs -- my suitcase
containing twenty pounds of the forbidden samples, fortunately none of
which were found. I did not breathe easy until we cleared the passport
checkpoint at Frankfurt. Our team split at Frankfurt, for the return trips
to the United States and Canada, respectively. After our return [on March
3], I delivered the forensic samples to the test laboratory in
Massachusetts. Upon receipt of the test results, I prepared my report,
combining my knowledge of gas execution facil-ities and procedures with
the research I had completed at crematories and with retort manu-facturers
in the United States. With the results of my research I believe you are
all familiar.

Upon completion of my report I testified at Toronto -- but that is another
story, for another time.

The Findings

1. Gas Chambers

The results published in the Leuchter Report are the important thing.
Categorically, none of the facilities examined at Auschwitz, Birkenau or
Lublin could have supported, or in fact did support, multiple executions
utilizing hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide or any other allegedly or
factually lethal gas. Based upon very generous maximum usage rates for all
the alleged gas chambers, totalling 1,693 persons per week, and assuming
these facilities could support gas executions, it would have required
sixty-eight (68) years to execute the alleged number of six millions of
persons. This must mean the Third Reich was in existence for some
seventy-five (75) years. Promoting these facilities as being capable of
effecting mass, multiple or even singular executions is both ludicrous and
insulting to every individual on this planet. Further, those who do
promote this mistruth are negligent and irresponsible for not
investigating these facilities earlier and ascertaining the truth before
indoctrinating the world with what may have become the greatest propaganda
ploy in history.

2. Crematories

Of equal importance are Exterminationist errors relating to the
crematories. If these crematories, operated at a theoretical rate of
maximum output per day, without any down time and at a constant pace (an
impossible situation), and we accept the figure of at least six millions
executed, the Third Reich lasted for at least forty-two (42) years, since
it would take thirty-five (35) years at an impossible minimum to cremate
these six millions of souls.

No one by any stretch of the imagination would allege (or even believe)
that the Third Reich ever lasted for seventy-five (75) or even forty-two
(42) years, yet they would have us believe that six millions of souls were
executed with equipment which could not possibly have functioned, in less
than one-seventh of the absolute minimum time it could possibly have
taken.

3. Forensics

Forensic samples were taken from the visited sites. A control sample was
removed from delous-ing facility 1 at Birkenau. It was postulated that
because of the high iron content of the building materials at these camps
the presence of hydrogen cyanide gas would result in a
ferric-ferro-cyanide compound being formed, as evidenced by the Prus-sian
blue staining on the walls in the delousing facilities.

A detailed analysis of the thirty-two samples taken at the
Auschwitz-Birkenau complexes showed 1,050 mg/kg of cyanide and 6,170 mg/kg
of iron. Higher iron results were found at all of the alleged gas chambers
but no significant cyanide traces. This would be impossible if these sites
were exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas, because the alleged gas chambers
supposedly were exposed to much greater quantities of gas than the
delousing facility. Thus, chemical analysis supports the fact that these
facilities were never utilized as gas execution facilities.

4. Construction

Construction of these facilities shows that they were never used as gas
chambers. None of these facilities were sealed or gasketed. No provision
was ever made to prevent condensation of gas on the walls, floor or
ceiling. No provision ever existed to exhaust the air-gas mixture from
these buildings. No provision ever existed to introduce or distribute the
gas throughout the chamber. No explosion-proof lighting existed and no
attempt was ever made to prevent gas from entering the crematories, even
though the gas is highly explosive. No attempt was made to protect
operating personnel from exposure to the gas or to protect other
non-participating persons from exposure. Specifically, at Auschwitz, a
floor drain in the alleged gas chamber was connected directly to 

the camp's storm drain system. At Majdanek a depressed walkway around the
alleged gas chambers would have collected gas seepage and resulted in a
death trap for camp personnel. No exhaust stacks ever existed. Hydrogen
cyanide gas is an extremely dangerous and lethal gas and nowhere were
there any provisions to effect any amount of safe handling. The chambers
were too small to accommodate more than a small fraction of the alleged
numbers. Plain and simple, these facilities could not have operated as
execution gas chambers.

5. Conclusion

After a thorough examination of the alleged execution facilities in Poland
and their associated crematories, the only conclusion that can be arrived
at by a rational, responsible person is the absurdity of the notion that
any of these facilities were ever capable of, or were utilized as,
execution gas chambers.

About the Author

FRED A. LEUCHTER, Jr., is America's leading specialist on the design and
fabrication of homicidal gas chambers and other equipment used in
execution of convicted criminals. His expertise has been acknowledged by
state governments and in periodicals such as The Atlantic (Feb. 1990), The
New York Times (Oct. 13, 1990) and The New York Times Book Review (Nov.
22, 1992), as well as on the "Phil Donahue Show" (where he appeared as a
guest). After receiving his Bachelor's degree from Boston University in
1964, he did postgraduate work at the Harvard Smithsonian Astrophysical
Observatory. Leuchter holds patents for numerous highly sophisticated
technical devices, including sextants, surveying instruments and optical
encoding equipment.

In spite of intense pressure to repudiate his findings, Leuchter defiantly
stands by his 1988 investigation of the alleged extermination gas
chambers. As a result, powerful special interest groups have made him the
target of a vicious campaign of slander, and have succeeded in all but
destroying his career.

------------------------

This paper was first presented at the IHR's Ninth Revisionist Conference,
(1989), and was published in the Summer 1989 issue of The Journal of
Historical Review.

A sumptuously illustrated edition of the sensational Leuchter Report, with
a hard-hitting foreword by British historian David Irving and an
introduction by French professor Robert Faurisson, is available from the
IHR for $23.00, postpaid.

Send $2.00 for a packet of literature and a full listing of books, audio
cassettes and videotapes. or, orde copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at
the following prices:

10 copies: $2 -- 50 copies: $5.
100 copies or more: 8 cents each

THE INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
P.O. Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:09 PDT 1995
Article: 24198 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 'Human Soap'
Date: 23 Jul 1995 05:02:46 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 293
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan075.kaiwan.com

"Jewish Soap"

by Mark Weber

One of the most lurid and slanderous Holocaust claims is the story that
the Germans manufactured soap from the bodies of their victims. Although a
similar charge during the First World War was exposed as a hoax almost
immediately afterwards, it was nevertheless revived and widely believed
during the Second. More important, this accusation was "proved" at the
main Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946, and has been authoritatively endorsed
by numerous historians in the decades since. In recent years, though, as
part of a broad retreat from the most obviously untenable aspects of the
"orthodox" extermination story, Holocaust historians have grudgingly
conceded that the human soap tale is a wartime propaganda lie. In their
retreat, though, these historians have tried to dismiss the soap story as
a mere wartime "rumor," neglecting to mention that international Jewish
organizations and then Allied governments endorsed and sanctioned this
libelous canard.

Wartime rumors that the Germans were manufacturing soap from the corpses
of slaughtered Jews were based in part on the fact that soap bars
distributed by German authorities in Jewish ghettos and camps bore the
impressed initials "RIF," which many took to stand for "Rein juedisches
Fett" or "Pure Jewish Fat." (It did not seem to matter that the letters
were "RIF" and not "RJF.") These rumors spread so widely in 1941 and 1942
that by late 1942 German authorities in Poland and Slovakia were
expressing official concern about their impact.

According to a Polish source quoted in a secret wartime U.S. Army military
intelligence report, for example, the Germans were operating a "human soap
factory" in 1941 at Turek, Poland. "The Germans had brought thousands of
Polish teachers, priests and Jews there and after extracting the blood
serum from their bodies, had thrown them on large pots and melted off
grease to make soap," the intelligence report added.

Macabre "Jewish soap" jokes became popular in the ghettos and camps, and
many non-Jews on the outside came to believe the story. When trains loaded
with Jewish deportees stopped temporarily at rail stations, Poles
reportedly would gleefully shout at them: "Jews to soap!" Even British
prisoners of war interned at Auschwitz in 1944 testified later about the
wartime rumors that corpses of gassing victims were being turned into soap
there.

In spite of its inherently incredible character, the soap story became an
important feature of Jewish and Allied war propaganda. Rabbi Stephen S.
Wise, wartime head of both the World Jewish Congress and the American
Jewish Congress, publicly charged in November 1942 that Jewish corpses
were being "processed into such war-vital commodities as soap, fats and
fertilizer" by the Germans. He further announced that the Germans were
"even exhuming the dead for the value of the corpses," and were paying
fifty marks for each body.

In late 1942, the Congress Weekly, published by the American Jewish
Congress, editorialized that the Germans were turning Jews "by scientific
methods of dissolution into fertilizer, soap and glue." An article in the
same issue reported that Jewish deportees from France and Holland were
being processed into "soap, glue and train oil" in at least two special
factories in Germany. Typical of many other American periodicals, the
influential New Republic reported in early 1943 that the Germans were
"using the bodies of their Jewish victims to make soap and fertilizer in a
factory at Siedlce."

During June and July 1943, two prominent representatives of the
Moscow-based "Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee" toured the United States and
raised more than two million dollars for the Soviet war effort at a series
of mass meetings. At each of these rallies, Soviet Jewish leader Solomon
Mikhoels showed the crowd a bar of soap that he said was made from Jewish
corpses.

After the war the soap story was given important legitimacy at the main
Nuremberg trial. L. N. Smirnov, Chief Counsellor of Justice for the USSR,
declared to the Tribunal:

... The same base, rationalized SS technical minds which created gas
chambers and murder vans, began devising such methods of complete
annihilation of human bodies, which would not only conceal the traces of
their crimes, but also to serve in the manufacturing of certain products.
In the Danzig Anatomical Institute, semi-industrial experiments in the
production of soap from human bodies and the tanning of human skin for
industrial purposes were carried out.

Smirnov quoted at length from an affidavit by Sigmund Mazur, an Institute
employee, which was accepted as Nuremberg exhibit USSR-197. It alleged
that Dr. Rudolf Spanner, the head of the Danzig Institute, had ordered the
production of soap from corpses in 1943. According to Mazur's affidavit,
Dr. Spanner's operation was of interest to high-ranking German officials.
Education Minister Bernhard Rust and Health Leader Dr. Leonardo Conti, as
well as professors from other medical institutes, came to witness
Spanner's efforts. Mazur also claimed to have used the "human soap" to
wash himself and his laundry.

A human soap "recipe," allegedly prepared by Dr. Spanner (Nuremberg
document USSR-196), was also presented. Finally, a sample of what was
supposed to be a piece of "human soap" was submitted to the Nuremberg
Tribunal as exhibit USSR-393.

In his closing address to the Tribunal, chief British prosecutor Sir
Hartley Shawcross echoed his Soviet colleague: "On occasion, even the
bodies of their victims were used to make good the wartime shortage of
soap." And in their final judgment, the Nuremberg Tribunal judges found
that "attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims
in the commercial manufacture of soap."

It is worth emphasizing here that the "evidence" presented at the
Nuremberg Tribunal for the bogus soap story was no less substantial than
the "evidence" presented for the claims of mass extermination in "gas
chambers." At least in the former case, an actual sample of soap
supposedly made from corpses was submitted in evidence.

After the war, supposed Holocaust victims were solemnly buried, in the
form of soap bars, in Jewish cemeteries. In 1948, for example, four such
bars wrapped in a funeral shroud were ceremoniously buried according to
Jewish religious ritual at the Haifa cemetery in Israel. Other bars of
"Jewish soap" have been displayed as grim Holocaust relics at the Jewish
Historical Institute in Warsaw, the Stutthof Museum near Gdansk (Danzig),
the Yivo Institute in New York, the Holocaust Museum in Philadelphia, the
Jewish Holocaust Centre in Melbourne (Australia), and at various locations
in Israel.

Numerous Jews who lived in German ghettos and camps during the war helped
keep the soap story alive many years later. Ben Edelbaum, for example,
wrote in his 1980 memoir Growing Up in the Holocaust:

Often with our rations in the ghettos, the Germans had included a bar of
soap branded with initials R.J.F. which came to be known as "Rif" soap. It
wasn't until the war had ended that we learned the horrible truth about
the bar of soap. Had we known in the ghetto, every bar of "Rif" soap would
have been accorded a sacred Jewish funeral in the cemetery at Marysin. As
it was, we were completely oblivious to its origin and used the bones and
flesh of our murdered loved ones to wash our bodies.

Nesse Godin was transferred from a ghetto in Lithuania to the Stutthof
concentration camp in the spring of 1944. In a 1983 interview, she
recalled her arrival there:

That day they gave us a shower and a piece of soap. After the war we found
out the soap was made out of pure Jew fat, Rein Juden Fett, marked in the
initials on the soap that I washed with. For all I know sometimes maybe
there was a little bit of my father's fat in that soap that I washed with.
How do you think I feel when I think about that?

Mel Mermelstein, the former Auschwitz inmate who was featured in the
sensationalized April 1991 cable television movie "Never Forget" (and who
is currently suing the Institute for Historical Review and three other
defendants for $11 million), declared in a 1981 sworn deposition that he
and other camp inmates used soap bars made from human fat. It was an
"established fact," he insisted, that the soap he washed with was made
>from  Jewish bodies.

Renowned "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal repeated the soap tale in a series
of articles published in 1946 in the Austrian Jewish community paper Der
Neue Weg. In the first of these he wrote:

During the last weeks of March the Romanian press reported an unusual
piece of news: In the small Romanian city of Folticeni twenty boxes of
soap were buried in the Jewish cemetery with full ceremony and complete
funeral rites. This soap had been found recently in a former German army
depot. On the boxes were the initials RIF, "Pure Jewish Fat." These boxes
were destined for the Waffen-SS. The wrapping paper revealed with
completely cynical objectivity that this soap was manufactured from Jewish
bodies. Surprisingly, the thorough Germans forgot to describe whether the
soap was produced from children, girls, men or elderly persons.

Wiesenthal went on:

After 1942 people in the General Government [Poland] knew quite well what
the RIF soap meant. The civilized world may not believe the joy with which
the Nazis and their women in the General Government thought of this soap.
In each piece of soap they saw a Jew who had been magically put there, and
had thus been prevented from growing into a second Freud, Ehrlich or
Einstein.

In another article he observed: "The production of soap from human fat is
so unbelievable that even some who were in concentration camps find it
difficult to comprehend."

Over the years, numerous supposedly reputable historians have promoted the
durable soap story. Journalist-historian William L. Shirer, for example,
repeated it in his best-selling work, The Rise and Fall of the Third
Reich.

Leading Soviet war propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg wrote in his postwar
memoir: "I have held in my hand a cake of soap stamped with the legend
'pure Jewish soap', prepared from the corpses of people who had been
destroyed. But there is no need to speak of these things: thousands of
books have been written about them."

A standard history studies textbook used in Canadian secondary schools,
Canada: The Twentieth Century, told students that the Germans "boiled" the
corpses of their Jewish victims "to make soap." The Anatomy of Nazism, a
booklet published and distributed by the Zionist "Anti-Defamation League"
of B'nai B'rith, stated: "The process of brutalization did not end with
the mass murders themselves. Large quantities of soap were manufactured
>from  the corpses of those murdered."

A detailed 1981 work, Hitler's Death Camps, repeated the soap story in
lurid detail. While noting that "some historians claim that the Nazi
manufacture of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor," author Konnilyn
Feig nevertheless accepted the story because "most East European camp
scholars...validate the soap stories, and other kinds of bars made from
humans are displayed in Eastern Europe -- I have seen many over the
years."

New York Rabbi Arthur Schneier repeated the tale at the opening ceremony
of the largest Holocaust meeting in history. In his invocation to the
"American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors," held in Washington in
April 1983, the Rabbi solemnly declared: "We remember the bars of soap
with the initials RJF -- Rein jüdisches Fett, Pure Jewish Fat -- made from
the bodies of our loved ones."

In spite of all the apparently impressive evidence, the charge that the
Germans manufactured soap from human beings is a falsehood, as Holocaust
historians are now belatedly acknowledging. The "RIF" soap bar initials
that supposedly stood for "Pure Jewish Fat" actually indicated nothing
more sinister than "Reich Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning"
("Reichsstelle für Industrielle Fettversorgung"), a German agency
responsible for wartime production and distribution of soap and washing
products. RIF soap was a poor quality substitute that contained no fat at
all, human or otherwise.

Shortly after the war the public prosecutor's office of Flensburg,
Germany, began legal proceedings against Dr. Rudolf Spanner for his
alleged role in producing human soap at the Danzig Institute. But after an
investigation the charge was quietly dropped. In a January 1968 letter,
the office stated that its inquiry had determined that no soap from human
corpses was made at the Danzig Institute during the war.

More recently, Jewish historian Walter Laqueur "denied established
history" by acknowledging in his 1980 book, The Terrible Secret, that the
human soap story has no basis in reality. Gitta Sereny, another Jewish
historian, noted in her book Into That Darkness: "The universally accepted
story that the corpses were used to make soap and fertilizer is finally
refuted by the generally very reliable Ludwigsburg Central Authority for
Investigation into Nazi Crimes."

Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history, similarly "rewrote
history" when she confirmed in 1981: "The fact is that the Nazis never
used the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the
production of soap."

In April 1990, professor Yehuda Bauer of Israel's Hebrew University,
regarded as a leading Holocaust historian, as well as Shmuel Krakowski,
archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, confirmed that
the human soap story is not true. Camp inmates "were prepared to believe
any horror stories about their persecutors," Bauer said. At the same time,
though, he had the chutzpah to blame the legend on "the Nazis."

In fact, blame for the soap story lies rather with individuals such as
Simon Wiesenthal and Stephen Wise, organizations like the World Jewish
Congress, and the victorious Allied powers, none of whom has ever
apologized for promoting this vile falsehood.

Why did Bauer and Krakowski decide that this was the appropriate time to
officially abandon the soap story? Krakowski himself hints that a large
part of the motivation for this "tactical retreat" has been to save what's
left of the sinking Holocaust ship by throwing overboard the most obvious
falsehoods. In the face of the growing Revisionist challenge, easily
demonstrable falsehoods like the soap story have become dangerous
embarrassments because they raise doubts about the entire Holocaust
legend. As Krakowski put it: "Historians have concluded that soap was not
made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened,
why give them something to use against the truth?"

The bad faith of those making this calculated and belated concession to
truth is shown by their failure to note that the soap myth was
authoritatively "confirmed" at Nuremberg, and by their unwillingness to
deal with the implications of that confirmation for the credibility of the
Tribunal and other supposedly trustworthy authorities in establishing
other, more fundamental aspects of the Holocaust story.

The striking contrast between the prompt postwar disavowal by the British
government of the infamous "human soap" lie of the First World War, and
the way in which a similarly baseless propaganda story from the Second
World War was officially endorsed by the victorious Allied powers and then
authoritatively maintained for so many years not only points up the
dispiriting lack of integrity on the part of so many Western historians,
but underscores the general decline in Western ethical standards during
this century.

The "human soap" story demonstrates anew the tremendous impact that a
wartime rumor, no matter how fantastic, can have once it has taken hold,
particularly when it is disseminated as a propaganda lie by influential
individuals and powerful organizations. That so many intelligent and
otherwise thoughtful people could ever have seriously believed that the
Germans distributed bars of soap brazenly labeled with letters indicating
that they were manufactured from Jewish corpses shows how readily even the
most absurd Holocaust fables can be -- and are -- accepted as fact.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:17 PDT 1995
Article: 24200 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Date: 23 Jul 1995 05:03:45 GMT
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THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides

By Mark Weber

Just about everyone has heard that the Germans killed some six million
Jews in Europe during the Second World War. American television, motion
pictures, newspapers and magazines hammer away on this theme. In
Washington, DC, an enormous official Holocaust Museum is being built.

Scholars Challenge Holocaust Story

During the past decade, though, more and more "Revisionist" historians,
including respected scholars such as Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern
University, Prof. Robert Faurisson of the University of Lyon in France and
best-selling British historian David Irving, have been vigorously
challenging the widely-accepted extermination story.

They do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to
concentration camps and ghettos, or that many Jews died or were killed
during the Second World War. Revisionist scholars have, however, presented
considerable evidence to show that there was no German program to
exterminate Europe's Jews and that the estimate of six million Jewish
wartime dead is an irresponsible exaggeration.

Many Holocaust Claims Abandoned

Revisionists point out that the Holocaust story has changed quite a lot
over the years. Many extermination claims that were once widely accepted
have been quietly dropped in recent years.

At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed Jews at Dachau,
Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of
the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned more
than twenty years ago.

No serious historian now supports the once supposedly proven story of
"extermination camps" in the territory of the old German Reich. Even famed
"Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal acknowledged in 1975 that "there were no
extermination camps on German soil." (note 1)

Prominent Holocaust historians now claim that masses of Jews were gassed
at just six camps in what is now Poland: Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka,
Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec. However, the "evidence" presented for
"gassings" at these six camps is not qualitatively different than the
"evidence" for alleged "gassings" at the camps in Germany proper.

At the great Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946 and during the decades following
the end of the Second World War, Auschwitz (especially Auschwitz-Birkenau)
and Majdanek (Lublin) were generally regarded as the really important
"death camps." For example, the Allies alleged at Nuremberg that the
Germans killed four million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at
Majdanek. Today, no reputable historian accepts these fantastic figures.

In addition, more and more striking evidence has been presented in recent
years which simply cannot be reconciled with the allegations of mass
exterminations at these camps. For example, detailed aerial reconnaissance
photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on several random days in 1944
(during the height of the alleged extermination period there) were made
public by the CIA in 1979. They show no trace of the piles of corpses,
smoking chimneys and masses of Jews awaiting death, all of which have been
alleged and would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz had indeed been
an extermination center.

We now also know that the postwar "confession" of Auschwitz commandant
Rudolf Hoss, which is a crucial part of the Holocaust extermination story,
was obtained by torture. (note 2)

Other Absurd Holocaust Claims

At one time it was also seriously claimed that the Germans exterminated
Jews with electricity and steam, and that they manufactured soap from
Jewish corpses.

For example, at Nuremberg the United States charged that the Germans
killed Jews at Treblinka, not in gas chambers, as is now claimed, but by
steaming them to death in "steam chambers." (note 3)

These bizarre stories have also been quietly abandoned in recent years.

Disease Claimed Many Inmates

The Holocaust extermination story is superficially plausible. Everyone has
seen the horrific photos of dead and dying inmates taken at Bergen-Belsen,
Nordhausen and other concentration camps when they were liberated by
British and American forces in the final weeks of the war in Europe. These
people were unfortunate victims, not of an extermination program, but of
disease and malnutrition brought on by the complete collapse of Germany in
the final months of the war. Indeed, if there had been an extermination
program, the Jews found by Allied forces at the end of the war would have
long since been killed.

In the face of the advancing Soviet forces, large numbers of Jews were
evacuated during the final months of the war from eastern camps and
ghettos to the remaining camps in western Germany. These camps quickly
became terribly overcrowded, which severely hampered efforts to prevent
the spread of epidemics. Furthermore, the breakdown of the German
transportation system made it impossible to supply adequate food and
medicine to the camps.

Captured German Documents

At the end of the Second World War, the Allies confiscated a tremendous
quantity of German documents dealing with Germany's wartime Jewish policy,
which was sometimes officially referred to as the "final solution." But
not a single German document has ever been found which even refers to an
extermination program. To the contrary, the documents clearly show that
the German "final solution" policy was one of emigration and deportation,
not extermination.

Consider, for example, the confidential German Foreign Office memorandum
of August 21, 1942. (note 4) "The present war gives Germany the
opportunity and also the duty of solving the Jewish problem in Europe,"
the memorandum notes. The policy "to promote the evacuation of the Jews
[from Europe] in closest cooperation with the agencies of the
Reichsfuehrer SS [Himmler] is still in force." The memo noted that "the
number of Jews deported in this way to the East did not suffice to cover
the labor needs."

The document quotes German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop as saying that
"at the end of this war, all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an
unalterable decision of the Fuehrer [Hitler] and also the only way to
master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be
applied and individual measures would not help very much."

The memorandum concludes by stating that the "deportations [of Jews to the
East] are a further step on the way of the total solution... The
deportation to the [Polish] General Government is a temporary measure. The
Jews will be moved on further to the occupied [Soviet] eastern territories
as soon as the technical conditions for it are given."

This unambiguous document, and others like it, are routinely suppressed or
ignored by those who uphold the Holocaust extermination story.

Unreliable Testimony

Holocaust historians rely heavily on so-called "survivor testimony" to
support the extermination story. But such "evidence" is notoriously
unreliable. As one Jewish historian has pointed out, "most of the memoirs
and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full of preposterous verbosity,
graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation,
dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias,
partisan attacks and apologies." (note 5)

Hitler and the "Final Solution"

There is no documentary evidence that Adolf Hitler ever gave an order to
exterminate the Jews, or that he knew of any extermination program.
Instead, the record shows that the German leader wanted the Jews to leave
Europe, by emigration if possible and by deportation if necessary.

A document found after the war in the files of the Reich Ministry of
Justice records his thinking on the Jews. In the spring of 1942, State
Secretary Franz Schlegelberger noted in a memorandum that Hitler's Chief
of Chancellery, Dr. Hans Lammers, had informed him: "The Fuehrer has
repeatedly declared to him [Lammers] that he wants to see the solution of
the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is over." (note 6)

And on July 24, 1942, Hitler emphasized his determination to remove all
Jews from Europe after the war: "The Jews are interested in Europe for
economic reasons, but Europe must reject them, if only out of
self-interest, because the Jews are racially tougher. After this war is
over, I will rigorously hold to the view... that the Jews will have to
leave and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish national state."
(note 7)

Himmler's SS and the Camps

Jews were an important part of Germany's wartime labor force, and it was
in Germany's interest to keep them alive.

The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec.
28, 1942, to every concentration camp, including Auschwitz. It sharply
criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that
"camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly
reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered: "The
camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of
the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit
improvement recommendations to the camp commandants ... The camp doctors
are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places
are improved as much as possible."

Finally, the directive stressed that "The Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich
Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced."
(note 8)

The head of the SS department that supervised the concentration camps,
Richard Gluecks, sent a circular letter to each camp commandant dated
January 20, 1943. In it he ordered: "As I have already pointed out, every
means must be used to lower the death rate in the camp." (note 9)

Six Million?

There is no real evidence for the incessantly repeated claim that the
Germans exterminated six million Jews. It is clear, though, that millions
of Jews "survived" German rule during the Second World War, including many
who were interned in Auschwitz and other so-called "extermination camps."
This fact alone should raise serious doubts about the extermination story.

A leading newspaper of neutral Switzerland, the daily Baseler Nachrichten,
carefully estimated in June 1946 that no more than 1.5 million European
Jews could have perished under German rule during the war. (note 10)

One-Sided "Holocaustomania"

Even after more than forty years, the stream of Holocaust films and books
shows no sign of diminishing.

This relentless media campaign, which Jewish historian Alfred Lilienthal
calls "Holocaustomania," portrays the fate of the Jews during the Second
World War as the central event of history. There is no end to the
heavy-handed motion pictures, the simplistic television specials, the
vindictive hunt for "Nazi war criminals," the one-sided "educational
courses," and the self-righteous appearances by politicians and
celebrities at Holocaust "memorial services."

Britain's chief rabbi, Immanuel Jakobovits, has accurately described the
Holocaust campaign as "an entire industry, with handsome profits for
writers, researchers, film-makers, monument builders, museum planners and
even politicians." He added that some rabbis and theologians are "partners
in this big business." (note 11)

Non-Jewish victims just don't merit the same concern. For example, there
are no American memorials, "study centers," or annual observances for
Stalin's victims, who vastly outnumber Hitler's.

Who Benefits?

The perpetual Holocaust media blitz is routinely used to justify enormous
American support for Israel and to excuse otherwise inexcusable Israeli
policies, even when they conflict with American interests.

The sophisticated and well-financed Holocaust media campaign is crucially
important to the interests of Israel, which owes its existence to massive
annual subsidies from American taxpayers.

As Prof. W.D. Rubinstein of Australia has candidly acknowledged: "If the
Holocaust can be shown to be a 'Zionist myth,' the strongest of all
weapons in Israel's propaganda armory collapses." (note 12)

Jewish history teacher Paula Hyman of Columbia University has observed:
"With regard to Israel, the Holocaust may be used to forestall political
criticism and suppress debate; it reinforces the sense of Jews as an
eternally beleaguered people who can rely for their defense only upon
themselves. The invocation of the suffering endured by the Jews under the
Nazis often takes the place of rational argument, and is expected to
convince doubters of the legitimacy of current Israeli government policy."
(note 13)

One major reason that the Holocaust story has proven so durable is that
the governments of the major powers also have a vested interest in
maintaining it. The victorious powers of the Second World War -- the
United States, the Soviet Union and Britain -- have a stake in portraying
the defeated Hitler regime as negatively as possible. The more evil and
satanic the Hitler regime appears, the more noble and justified seems the
Allied cause.

For many Jews, the Holocaust has become both a flourishing business and a
kind of new religion, as noted Jewish author and newspaper publisher
Jacobo Timerman points out in his book, The Longest War. He reports that
many Israelis, using the word Shoah, which is Hebrew for Holocaust, joke
that "There's no business like Shoah business." (note 14)

The Holocaust media campaign portrays Jews as totally innocent victims,
and non-Jews as morally retarded and unreliable beings who can easily turn
into murderous Nazis under the right circumstances. This self-serving but
distorted portrayal greatly strengthens Jewish group solidarity and
self-awareness.

A key lesson of the Holocaust story for Jews is that non-Jews are never
completely trustworthy. If a people as cultured and as educated as the
Germans could turn against the Jews, so the thinking goes, than surely no
non-Jewish nation can ever be completely trusted. The Holocaust message is
thus one of contempt for humanity.

Holocaust Hatemongering

The Holocaust story is sometimes used to promote hatred and hostility,
particularly against the German people as a whole, eastern Europeans and
the leadership of the Roman Catholic church.

The well-known Jewish writer, Elie Wiesel, is a former Auschwitz inmate
who served as chairman of the official U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council. He
received the 1986 Nobel Peace Prize. This dedicated Zionist wrote in his
book, Legends of Our Time: "Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set
apart a zone of hate -- healthy, virile hate -- for what the German
personifies and for what persists in the German." (note 15)

Let Both Sides Be Heard

For several years now, the Holocaust story has been the subject of
legitimate controversy in Europe. It was debated for several hours on
Swiss television and over French national radio. The respected Italian
historical journal Storia Illustrata has given extensive coverage to both
sides of this issue.

Here in America, though, powerful organizations have so far prevented any
real public exchange of views on this issue. Many thoughtful Americans are
having growing doubts about at least some of the more sensational
Holocaust claims, but all the public ever sees and hears is the orthodox
view of the extermination story.

That's not right. Americans have the right to judge this important issue
for themselves.

The Holocaust extermination story is breaking down as suppressed evidence
becomes better known, and as more people become aware of the facts about
what is certainly the most hyped and politicized chapter of modern
history.

Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents
genuine reconciliation and lasting peace.

Revisionism promotes historical awareness and international understanding.
That's why the work of the Institute for Historical Review is so important
and deserves your support.


NOTES

1. Books & Bookmen, London, April 1975, p. 5.

2.  Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237, and R.
Faurisson, Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

3.  Nuremberg document PS-3311 (USA-293). IMT blue series, Vol. 32, pp.
153-158; IMT, Vol. 3, pp. 566- 568.; NMT green series, Vol. 5, pp. 1133,
1134.

4.  Nuremberg document NG-2586-J. NMT green series, Vol. 13, pp. 243-249.

5.  Samuel Gringauz in Jewish Social Studies (New York), January 1950,
Vol. 12, p. 65.

6.  Nuremberg document PS-4025. D. Irving, Goering: A Biography (New York:
1989), p. 349.

7.  H. Picker, Hitlers Tischgespr_che im Fuehrerhaupt quartier (Stuttgart:
1976), p. 456.

8.  Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2; NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834.

9.  Nuremberg document NO-1523; NMT green series, Vol. 5, pp. 372-373.

10. Baseler Nachrichten, June 13, 1946, p. 2.

11. H. Shapiro, "Jakobovits," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Nov. 26, 1987, p. 1.

12. Quadrant (Australia), Sept. 1979, p. 27.

13. New York Times Magazine, Sept. 14, 1980, p. 79.

14. The Longest War (New York: Vintage, 1982), p. 15.

15. Legends of Our Time (New York: Schocken Books, 1982), chap. 12, p. 142.

-----------------------

Mark Weber is editor of the Journal of Historical Review, published by the
Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of
Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University ,
and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he
testified as a recognized expert witness on the "Final Solution" and the
Holocaust issue in a Toronto District Court case. He is the author of many
published articles, reviews and essays on various aspects of modern
European history.

-----------------------

The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials,
as well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a
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-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:24 PDT 1995
Article: 24201 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 23 Jul 1995 05:04:39 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 326
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan075.kaiwan.com

What is "Holocaust Denial"?

In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed
danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn
about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that
some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the
Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria,
"Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished
with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community
leaders are calling for similar government measures in North America
against so-called "deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for
the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization,
says: (note 1)

The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million
children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million.
First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who
denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself.

Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what
constitutes "Holocaust denial"?

Six Million?

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not
believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed
during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military
Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by
the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of
which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." (note
2)

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians
could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the
standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not
accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all
causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution,
likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of
Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that
this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Human Soap?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis didn't use
Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all the evidence (including an
actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the Nuremberg Tribunal
declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to
utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial
manufacture of soap." (note 3)

In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency
"rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true.
"Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so
many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to
use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. (note
4)

Wannsee Conference?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January
1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or
coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so,
Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust
denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time
after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews
was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a
conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail."
(note 5)

Extermination Policy?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by
Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer
would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote
in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews,
that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews:
the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter.
But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised,
three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. (note 6) As Holocaust
historian Christopher Browning has noted: (note 7)

In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or
Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised.
Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference:
"Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer
ended." In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not
given.

A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has
contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into
"intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was
a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter
hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at
lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is
this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents
after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime
extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor
Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of
German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zuendel. (note 8)

Auschwitz

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most
Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in
gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J.
Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did
the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From
1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were
killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly
the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar
Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four
million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at
Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands
of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a
1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and
blessed the four million victims.

Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today.
In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with
Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million
figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly
removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials
announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (note
12) In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a
much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about
775,000 died there during the war years. (note 13)

Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in
Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote (p.
366):

. . . Many questions remain open . . . All in all, how many bodies were
cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the
national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims?
How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were
deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those
murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to
these questions at this time.

Gas Chambers

What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here
too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources
for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While
Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out
that

most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and
executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and
bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be
influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

Hoess Testimony

One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Hoess, an SS officer
who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg
International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to
support its findings of extermination. (note 14)

It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his
so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal),
are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant
nearly to death. (note 15) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened
with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not
be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the
existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp
ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was
commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated
there, and that a further half million died of disease. (note 16) Today no
reputable historian upholds these figures. Hoess was obviously willing to
say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to
try to save himself and his family.

Forensic Investigations

In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing
sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas
chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was
conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A.
Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the
alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if
they could have been used to kill people as claimed. After a careful study
of the alleged killing facilities, Leuchter concluded that the sites were
not used, and could not have been used, as homicidal gas chambers.
Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter from the walls and
floors of the alleged gas chambers showed either no or minuscule traces of
cyanide compound, from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide
allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. (note 17)

A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent report) commissioned
by the Auschwitz State Museum and conducted by Institute of Forensic
Research in Krakow has confirmed Leuchter's finding that minimal or no
traces of cyanide compound can be found in the sites alleged to have been
gas chambers. (note 18)

The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic
examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the
results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities,
where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or
only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas
chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in
the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers.

Another forensic study has been carried out by German chemist Germar
Rudolf. On the basis of his on-site examination and analysis of samples,
the certified chemist and doctoral candidate concluded: "For
chemical-technical reasons, the claimed mass gassings with hydrocyanic
acid in the alleged 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz did not take place . . .
The supposed facilities for mass killing in Auschwitz and Birkenau were
not suitable for this purpose . . ." (note 19)

Finally, there is the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lueftl, a
respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of
Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he
called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically
impossible." (note 20)

Discredited Perspective

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who advocate criminal
persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of
1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just
pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be
assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy
evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are
now discredited.

For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately
seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of
the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist
scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is
a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to
Europe's Jews during World War II.

Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are
resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers
and classrooms.

NOTES

1.  Globe and Mail (Toronto), Jan. 22, 1992.

2.  Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military
Tribunal (IMT "blue series"), Vol. 22, p. 496.

3.  IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 496.

4.  Globe and Mail (Toronto), April 25, 1990; See also: M. Weber, "Jewish
Soap," The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.

5.  Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), Jan. 30, 1992.

6.  See: Barbara Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die: Report of the
Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zuendel (Toronto:
Samisdat, 1992), pp. 192, 300, 349.

7.  "The Revised Hilberg," Simon Wiesenthal Annual, Vol. 3, 1986, p. 294.

8.  B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), pp. 24-25.

9.  A. Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1988), p. 365.

10.  Nuremberg document 008-USSR.; IMT "blue series," Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.

11.  B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), p. 441.

12.  Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept.
22, 1989; Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million," Daily Telegraph
(London), July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to
1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.

13.   J.-C. Pressac, Les Crémetoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du meurtre
de masse (Paris: CNRS, 1993). See also: R. Faurisson, "Jean-Claude
Pressac's New Auschwitz Book," The Journal of Historical Review, Jan.-Feb.
1994, p. 24.

14.  IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 485; Nuremberg document 3868-PS
(USA-819), in IMT "blue series," Vol. 33, pp. 275-279.

15.  Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237; C.
Hitchens, "Whose History is it?," Vanity Fair (New York), Dec. 1993, p.
117.

16.  See: R. Faurisson, "How the British Obtained the Confession of Rudolf
Hoess," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

17.  A deluxe edition of The Leuchter Report is available from the IHR for
$20.00, plus $2.00 shipping.

18.  The complete text of this report was published in English in The
Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.

19.  G. Rudolf, Gutachten ueber die Bildung und Nachweisbarkeit von
Cyanidverbindungen in den "Gaskammern" von Auschwitz (London: 1993). See:
The Journal of Historical Review, Nov.-Dec. 1993, pp. 25-26.

20.  "The 'Lueftl Report'," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1992-93.

4/94

This article is adapted from an essay originally distributed in 1992 by
The Canadian Free Speech League (P.O. Box 40143, Victoria, B.C. V8W 3N3),
a federally incorporated, not-for-profit association that has helped with
the legal defense of Ernst Zuendel, among others. 

Send $2 for a packet of literature and full listing of books and audio-
and video-tapes. Or, orde copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the
following prices:

10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00
100 copies or more 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:29 PDT 1995
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Few Facts about the IHR
Date: 23 Jul 1995 05:05:27 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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A Few Facts About the INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW

P. O. Box 2739 o Newport Beach, CA 92659 o U.S.A.

Founded in 1978, the Institute for Historical Review is a not-for-profit
research, educational and publishing center devoted to truth and accuracy
in history. The IHR continues the tradition of historical revisionism
pioneered by distinguished historians such as Harry Elmer Barnes, A.J.P.
Taylor, Charles Tansill, Paul Rassinier and William H. Chamberlin.

The purpose of the IHR is, in the words of Barnes, to ³bring history into
accord with the facts.² To this end, it sheds light on suppressed
information about key chapters of history, especially twentieth century
history, that have special relevance today.

With growing support from across the United States and around the world,
the IHR works for truthfulness in history, to restore sanity in Americaıs
foreign policy, to liberate people from pseudo-religious intimidation, and
for the First Amendment right of free speech. The IHR also works to tear
down barriers to international peace and understanding by encouraging
greater understanding of the root causes, nature and consequences of war.
Nowhere is this work more important than here in the United States, where
untold billions of dollars are squandered yearly in preparation for war
and conflict.

Certainly the best-known and most controversial aspect of the IHRıs work
has been its treatment of the Holocaust issue. Over the years, the IHR has
published detailed books and numerous probing essays by scholars such as
Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University and French professor Robert
Faurisson that call into question the orthodox Holocaust extermination
story. The Institute does not ³deny the Holocaust.² It does not dispute
the suffering and terrible persecution of European Jews during the Second
World War. At the same time, though, a growing body of documentary,
forensic and other evidence shows that much of what weıre told about the
³Holocaust² is exaggerated or simply not true.

Growing Impact

Defying powerful adversaries, the Instituteıs impact continues to grow.
While media coverage of the IHR and its work is still overwhelmingly
hostile, the Institute and historical revisionism have been receiving more
routine and widespread attention.

For example, millions of Americans were introduced to the IHR through the
March 20, 1994, broadcast of CBSıs ³60 Minutes,² one of the countryıs most
widely viewed television shows. Our Journal was also introduced, and the
front cover of the Nov.­Dec. 1993 issue was shown on screen.

The IHR is frequently cited in newspapers and magazines, including Time,
Vanity Fair, The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal, and the Los Angeles
Times. Institute spokesmen have made numerous radio and television
appearances. The IHR is now grudgingly accepted as an established part of
Americaıs social-cultural landscape.

For Peace And Understanding

As George Orwell aptly noted in his classic Nineteen Eighty-Four: ³Who
controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls
the past.²

Bitter experience has taught us just how little we can trust politicians
and governments, especially during wartime when official and semi-official
propagandists are most busy deceiving the public. As the eminent American
historian Harry Elmer Barnes put it: ³Truth is always the first war
casualty. The emotional disturbances and distortions in historical writing
are greatest in wartime.²

Because of this, Americans have been misled into one costly, devastating,
and needless war after another. During the 1991 Gulf War, for example,
government officials and much of the media lied and deceived the American
people to justify the needless slaughter and devastation of that conflict.

As shrewd observers have long understood, history is written by the
victors. This is particularly true with regard to the history of the
Second World War. The origins and nature of that catastrophic conflict are
routinely portrayed as a simplistic struggle between good and evil, in a
childish and emotion-charged way.

Powerful interests ‹ including politicians and the major media ‹ distort
the historical record for self-serving reasons. Textbooks, motion pictures
and television routinely present history in a slanted and partisan way.

Purpose

Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents
genuine reconciliation and lasting peace. As Dr. Harry Elmer Barnes
emphasized, historical revisionism is the key to just and lasting peace.

In seeking to replace deceitful and emotion-charged portrayals with truth
and fact, the IHR promotes historical awareness, understanding and mutual
respect among nations. An awareness of real history provides understanding
about the great issues of the present and the future.

The work of the IHR in ³blasting the historical blackout² is all the more
relevant and timely in this final decade of the twentieth century, as the
political-economic order imposed by the victorious powers of the Second
World War dramatically collapses ‹ and along with it a distorted and
one-sided historical perspective.

In a world so saturated with historical lies and self-serving propaganda,
the Institute for Historical Review stands as a precious beacon.

Bigoted Attacks Against The IHR

The Institute is sometimes denounced as an anti-Jewish or racist ³hate
group.² This is a baseless smear.

Since its founding, the IHR has steadfastly opposed bigotry of all kinds
in its efforts to promote greater public understanding of history. It does
not seek to whitewash any past regime or rehabilitate any ideology. The
IHR is proud of the backing it has earned from people of the most diverse
racial and ethnic backgrounds (including Jewish).

In fact, the IHR itself has been a target of real hate groups such as the
Jewish Defense League, an organization the FBI has characterized as
criminal and terrorist.

Following numerous death threats by telephone and mail, extensive property
damage, five relatively minor fire bombings, one drive-by shooting and two
physical assaults, the IHRıs office-warehouse was destroyed in an arson
attack on July 4, 1984. Estimated property loss was more than $400,000,
including tens of thousands of books, rare documents, irreplaceable files
and expensive office equipment.

In addition, well-financed special interest groups seeking to curtail open
discussion of vital historical issues have for years targeted the
Institute, grossly misrepresenting its work and purpose. Prominent among
these are the Simon Wiesenthal Center (Los Angeles) and the
Anti-Defamation League of Bınai Bırith (New York) ‹ stridently partisan
organizations with well documented records as staunch apologists for
narrow Zionist-Jewish interests.

Along with the Instituteıs growing impact has come, inevitably, ever more
furious attacks from intolerant adversaries. Such desperate and
mean-spirited opposition is actually a sign of the IHRıs growing
effectiveness.

Books

A major task of the Institute is the publication of solid works of
historiography. The IHR brings long-neglected revisionist classics back
into print, and breaks fresh ground with professionally edited and
attractively designed first editions of important new works.

Numerous college and university educators have assigned IHR books as
required reading in their courses. Most IHR books can be found in major
libraries around the world. Several IHR titles have been translated into
foreign languages. One title alone has sold more than 50,000 copies
worldwide. IHR titles include:

o  Why I Survived the A-Bomb, by Akira Kohchi.

o  Falsehood in Wartime: Propaganda Lies of the First World War, by Arthur
Ponsonby.

o  The Secret Team: The CIA & Its Allies in Control of the United States &
the World, by L. Fletcher Prouty.

o  The Forced War: When Peaceful Revision Failed, by Dr. David L. Hoggan.

o  Pearl Harbor: The Story of the Secret War, by George Morgenstern.

o  Gruesome Harvest: The Alliesı Postwar War Against the German People, by
R. F. Keeling.

o  No Time for Silence: Pleas for a Just Peace Over Four Decades by Dr.
Austin J. App.

o  The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, by Walter N. Sanning.

o  Hitler: Born at Versailles, by Leon Degrelle.

o  Campaign in Russia: The Waffen SS on the Eastern Front, by Leon Degrelle.

o  Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur R. Butz.

o  Barnes Against the Blackout: Essays Against Interventionism, by Dr.
Harry Elmer Barnes.

o  Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence, by Wilhelm Stäglich.

o  The Man Who Invented Genocide, by Dr. James J. Martin.

o  The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses, by Paul Rassinier.

o  Dealing in Hate: The Development of Anti-German Propaganda, by Dr.
Michael F. Connors.

o  The ŒConfessionsı of Kurt Gerstein, by Henri Roques. 

In addition to its own titles, the IHR distributes scores of worthwhile
books issued by other publishers. More than a hundred solidly researched
books and dozens of compelling audio and video tapes are listed and
described in the IHR annual catalog.

The Journal Of Historical Review

The Instituteıs Journal of Historical Review, says best-selling British
historian David Irving, ³has an astounding record of fearlessly shattering
the icons of those vested interests who hate and fear the truth. That is
why I strongly endorse it, and suggest that every intelligent man and
women in America, Britain and the dominions subscribe.²

The Journal of Historical Review appears six times yearly in an
attractive, handsomely illustrated 48-page magazine format. More than 55
issues have appeared since it first began publication in 1980.

It is the leading periodical of its kind in the world. University
libraries, academic centers, individual scholars and discerning lay
readers around the world subscribe. The Journal is a member of the
Conference of Historical Journals.

Distinguished historians, educators and other academics are members of the
Journalıs Editorial Advisory Committee. Journal contributors have included
respected scholars from around the world.

A Journal reader typically has a keen interest in understanding how and
why the world has become what it is today. He is fed up with recycled
wartime propaganda being passed off as ³history.² He is tired of socially
destructive lies and bigotry. He wants a sane and healthy future for
himself, his family and his country, indeed for all humanity, and realized
that it can only be achieved through an understanding of history and the
world based on truth and reality.

Conferences

Since 1979, the IHR has held twelve conferences, presenting speakers from
Europe, Asia, and Australia, as well as the United States. IHR conference
speakers have included:

o  British historian David Irving, perhaps the most widely read historian
in the English-speaking world. Author of numerous best-selling works.

o  Pulitzer prize-winning American historian John Toland, author of
several best-selling works of history.

o  Dr. James J. Martin, an American historian with a 25-year career as an
educator. Author of several meticulously researched historical studies.
Contributor to the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

o  Fred Leuchter, Americaıs foremost expert on execution hardware. Author
of a widely discussed forensic report on the alleged extermination ³gas
chambers² at Auschwitz.

o  Hideo Miki, retired professor at Japanıs National Defense Academy and
retired Lieutenant General of Japanıs Self-Defense Forces.

o  John Bennett, noted Australian civil liberties attorney and activist,
and president of the Australian Civil Liberties Union.

Other Activities

The educational work of the IHR also includes outreach through its Media
Project. Project director Bradley Smith has appeared on more than 400
radio talk shows, reaching an audience estimated in the millions.

Hundreds of thousands of leaflets from our popular introductory series
have been sold and distributed. An IHR speakersı bureau makes speakers
available for meetings.

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:37 PDT 1995
Article: 24203 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz: Myths and facts
Date: 23 Jul 1995 05:06:04 GMT
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 413
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan075.kaiwan.com

Auschwitz: Myths and Facts

by Mark Weber

Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German concentration camp
where great numbers of Jews and others were reportedly exterminated in gas
chambers during the Second World War.

Auschwitz is widely regarded as the most terrible Nazi extermination
center. This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.
Scholars challenge Holocaust story

Astonishing as it may seem, more and more historians and engineers have
been challenging the widely accepted Auschwitz story. These "revisionist"
scholars do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported
to the camp, or that many died there, particularly of typhus and other
diseases. But the compelling evidence they present shows that Auschwitz
was not an extermination center and that the story of mass killings in
"gas chambers" is a myth.

The Auschwitz camps

The Auschwitz camp complex was set up in 1940 in what is now south-central
Poland. Large numbers of Jews were deported there between 1942 and
mid-1944.

The main camp was known as Auschwitz I. Birkenau, or Auschwitz II, was
supposedly the main extermination center, and Monowitz, or Auschwitz III,
was a large industrial center where gasoline was produced from coal. In
addition there were dozens of smaller satellite camps devoted to the war
economy.

Four Million Victims?

At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans
exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. This figure, which was
invented by the Soviets, was uncritically accepted for many years. It
often appeared in major American newspapers and magazines, for example.
(note 1)

Today no reputable historian, not even those who generally accept the
extermination story, believes this figure. Israeli Holocaust historian
Yehuda Bauer said in 1989 that it is time to finally acknowledge the
familiar four million figure is a deliberate myth. In July 1990 the
Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust
Center, suddenly announced that altogether perhaps one million people
(both Jews and non-Jews) died there. Neither institution would say how
many of these people were killed, nor were any estimates given of the
numbers of those supposedly gassed. (note 2)

One prominent Holocaust historian, Gerald Reitlinger, has estimated that
perhaps 700,000 or so Jews perished at Auschwitz. While even these lower
figures are incorrect, they show how the Auschwitz story has changed
drastically over the years.

Bizarre Tales

At one time it was seriously claimed that Jews were systematically
electrocuted at Auschwitz. American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness
report from liberated Auschwitz, told readers in February 1945 that the
methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt
on which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and]
then moved on into furnaces. They were burned almost instantly, producing
fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields." (note 3)

And at the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
charged that the Germans used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously
"vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
trace left of them." (note 4) No reputable historian now accepts either of
these fanciful tales.

The Hoess "Confession"

A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz
commandant Rudolf Hoess of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S.
prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. (note 5)

Although it is still widely cited as solid proof for the Auschwitz
extermination story, it is actually a false statement that was obtained by
torture.

Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard
Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the
former commandant to obtain his "confession." Hoess himself privately
explained his ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that
I killed two and half million Jews. I could just as well have said that it
was five million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession
can be obtained, whether it is true or not." (note 6)

Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now
acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Hoess
"affidavit" are simply not true. For one thing, no serious scholar now
claims that anything like two and a half or three million people perished
in Auschwitz.

The Hoess "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were already being
exterminated by gas in the summer of 1941 at three other camps: Belzec,
Treblinka and Wolzek. The "Wolzek" camp mentioned by Hoess is a total
invention. No such camp existed, and the name is no longer mentioned in
Holocaust literature. Moreover, the story these days by those who believe
in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did not begin at
Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.

No Documentary Evidence

Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a
policy or program of extermination. In fact, the extermination story
cannot be reconciled with the documentary evidence.

Many Jewish Inmates Unable to Work

For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were
unable to work were immediately killed. Jews who were too old, young,
sick, or weak were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could
be worked to death were temporarily kept alive.

But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish
inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For
example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the
chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and
Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates
in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining
Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work.
(note 7)

This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on
"security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS
concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported
that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp
complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II
camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were
36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to
work." (note 8)

These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz
extermination story.

The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was established primarily as a
camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly,
as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting assignment to other
camps. That's the considered view of Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern
University, who also says that this was the reason for the unusually high
death rate there. (note 9)

Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish,
acknowledges in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews
perished at Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes
than were executed. (note 10)

Anne Frank

Perhaps the best known Auschwitz inmate was Anne Frank, who is known
around the world for her famous diary. But few people know that thousands
of Jews, including Anne and her father, Otto Frank, "survived" Auschwitz.

The 15-year-old girl and her father were deported from the Netherlands to
Auschwitz in September 1944. Several weeks later, in the face of the
advancing Soviet army, Anne was evacuated along with many other Jews to
the Bergen-Belsen camp, where she died of typhus in March 1945.

Her father came down with typhus in Auschwitz and was sent to the camp
hospital to recover. He was one of thousands of sick and feeble Jews who
were left behind when the Germans abandoned the camp in January 1945,
shortly before it was overrun by the Soviets. He died in Switzerland in
1980.

If the German policy had been to kill Anne Frank and her father, they
would not have survived Auschwitz. Their fate, tragic though it was,
cannot be reconciled with the extermination story.

Allied Propaganda

The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay
statements of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any
evidence of extermination. Their beliefs are understandable, because
rumors about gassings at Auschwitz were widespread.

Allied planes dropped large numbers of leaflets, written in Polish and
German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas which claimed that people
were being gassed in the camp. The Auschwitz gassing story, which was an
important part of the Allied wartime propaganda effort, was also broadcast
to Europe by Allied radio stations. (note 11)

Survivor Testimony

Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination
at Auschwitz.

An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp
experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in
Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish
forced laborer. On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and
the others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz.

Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go
into a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified
women were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas,
water came out of the shower heads.

Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed. She witnessed the death
of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few
committed suicide. But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings,
gassings, or of any extermination program. (note 12)

A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from
Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated
daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing
of "gas chambers" during the time she was interned there. She heard the
gassing stories only later. (note 13)

Inmates Released

Auschwitz internees who had served their sentences were released and
returned to their home countries. If Auschwitz had actually been a top
secret extermination center, the Germans would certainly not have released
inmates who "knew" what was happening in the camp. (note 14)

Himmler Orders Death Rate Reduced

In response to the deaths of many inmates due to disease, especially
typhus, the German authorities responsible for the camps ordered firm
counter-measures.

The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec.
28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. It sharply
criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that
"camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly
reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered:

The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition
of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit
improvement recommendations to the camp commandants... The camp doctors
are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places
are improved as much as possible.

Finally, the directive stressed that "the Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich
Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced."
(note 15)

German Camp Regulations

Official German camp regulations make clear that Auschwitz was not an
extermination center. They ordered:

The new arrivals in the camp have to be examined carefully. Those
suspected should immediately be put into the camp hospital and kept there
for observation.

Prisoners asking for medical treatment should be brought before the camp
doctor that same day to be examined.

The camp doctor should regularly check how the food is prepared and its
quality. Any shortcomings should immediately be brought to the attention
of the camp commandant. Special care should be given to the treatment of
accidents, so as to avoid impairment of the prisoners' ability to earn
their living. Prisoners who are to be set free or transferred from the
camp should be brought before the camp physician for medical examination.
(note 16)

Telltale Aerial Photos

Detailed aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on
several random days in 1944 (during the height of the alleged
extermination period there) were made public by the CIA in 1979. They show
no trace of the piles of corpses, smoking crematory chimneys or masses of
Jews awaiting death which have been alleged and which would have been
clearly visible if Auschwitz had indeed been an extermination center.
(note 17)

Absurd Cremation Claims

Cremation specialists have confirmed that thousands of corpses could not
possibly have been cremated every day throughout the spring and summer of
1944 at Auschwitz, as commonly alleged.

For example, Mr. Ivan Lagace, manager of a large crematory in Calgary,
Canada, testified in court in April 1988 that the Auschwitz cremation
story is technically impossible. The allegation that 10,000 or even 20,000
corpses were burned every day at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 in
crematories and open pits is simply "preposterous" and "beyond the realm
of reality," he declared under oath. (note 18)

Gassing Expert Refutes Extermination Story

America's leading gas chamber expert, Boston engineer Fred A. Leuchter,
carefully examined the supposed "gas chambers" in Poland and concluded
that the Auschwitz gassing story is absurd and technically impossible.

Leuchter is the foremost specialist on the design and installation of gas
chambers used in the United States to execute convicted criminals. For
example, he designed a gas chamber facility for the Missouri state
penitentiary.

In February 1988 he carried out a detailed on-site examination of the "gas
chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek in Poland, which are either
still standing or only partially in ruins. In sworn testimony to a Toronto
court and in a technical report, Leuchter described every aspect of his
investigation.

He concluded by emphatically declaring that the alleged gassing facilities
could not possibly have been used to kill people. Among other things, he
pointed out that the so-called "gas chambers" were not properly sealed or
vented to kill human beings without also killing German camp personnel.
(note 19)

Dr. William B. Lindsey, a research chemist employed for 33 years by the
Dupont Corporation, likewise testified in a 1985 court case that the
Auschwitz gassing story is technically impossible. Based on a careful
on-site examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and
Majdanek, and on his years of experience, he declared: "I have come to the
conclusion that no one was willfully or purposefully killed with Zyklon B
[hydrocyanic acid gas] in this manner. I consider it absolutely
impossible." (note 20)

Conclusion

The Auschwitz extermination story originated as wartime propaganda. Now,
more than 40 years after the end of the Second World War, it's time to
take another, more objective look at this highly polemicized chapter of
history. The Auschwitz legend is the core of the Holocaust story. If
hundreds of thousands of Jews were not systematically killed there, as
alleged, one of the great myths of our time collapses.

Artificially maintaining the hatreds and passions of the past prevents
genuine reconciliation and lasting peace. Revisionism promotes historical
awareness and international understanding. That's why the work of the
Institute for Historical Review is so important and deserves your support.

Notes

1. Nuremberg document 008-USSR. IMT blue series, Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.;
NC&A red series, vol. 1, p. 35; C.L. Sulzberger, "Oswiecim Killings Placed
at 4,000,000," New York Times, May 8, 1945, and, New York Times, Jan. 31,
1986, p. A4.

2. Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept.
22, 1989; "Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million,," Daily Telegraph
(London), July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to
1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.

3. Washington (DC) Daily News, Feb. 2, 1945, pp. 2, 35. (United Press
dispatch from Moscow).

4. IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21, 1946).

5. Nuremberg document 3868-PS (USA-819). IMT blue series, Vol. 33, pp. 275-279.

6. Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235; R. Faurisson,
Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

7. Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German document
No. 128, in: H. Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (East Berlin: 1966), p. 264.

8. Nuremberg document NO-021. NMT green series, Vol. 5. pp. 384-385.

9. Arthur Butz, Hoax of the Twentieth Century (Costa Mesa, Calif.), p. 124.

10. Arno Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1989), p. 365.

11. Nuremberg document NI-11696. NMT green series, Vol. 8, p. 606.

12. Testimony in Toronto District Court, March 28, 1988. Toronto Star,
March 29, 1988, p. A2.

13. Sylvia Rothchild, ed., Voices from the Holocaust (New York: 1981), pp.
188-191.

14. Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: 1981), p. 169.

15. Nuremberg document PS-2171, Annex 2. NC&A red series, Vol. 4, pp. 833-834.

16. "Lagerordnung fur die Konzentrationslager." Made public in 1962 by
former Auschwitz-Birkenau inmate Prof. Jan Olbrycht. English translation
published in Anthology, Inhuman Medicine, Vol. 1, Part 1, Warsaw:
International Auschwitz Committee, 1970, pp. 149-151.

17. Dino A. Brugioni and Robert C. Poirier, The Holocaust Revisited,
Washington, DC: Central Intelligence Agency, 1979.

18. Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), April 14, 1988, p. 6.

19. The Leuchter Report: An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution
Gas Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. Toronto: 1988. Available
for $17.00, postpaid, from the IHR.

20. The Globe and Mail (Toronto), Feb. 12, 1985, p. M3.

MARK WEBER is editor of the Journal of Historical Review, published by the
Institute for Historical Review. He studied history at the University of
Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University,
and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). For five days in March 1988, he
testified as an expert witness on the "final solution" and the Holocaust
issue in a Toronto District Court case. His many articles, reviews and
essays on modern European history have appeared in various scholarly
journals and other periodicals.

Send $2.00 for a packet of literature and a full listing of books. Or,
orde copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies: $2 -- 50 copies: $5
100 copies or more: 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659

-- 
Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at:
P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659


From bzs@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:39 PDT 1995
Article: 24204 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The US Holocaust Museum - A dangerous and costly mistake
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 23 Jul 1995 04:59:52 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 05:22:56 GMT
Lines: 24


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>financed through the unwitting largesse of the American
>taxpayer,

Executive summary:

>The Holocaust Memorial Council, besides soliciting tens of millions of
>dollars in tax-deductible donations to finance the Holocaust museum,

>Lerman has helped raise nearly $160 million in tax-deductible
>contributions.

As per usual Mr Raven's articles twist and turn. His ravings about
taxpayer largesse refer to tax-deductible contributions.

Most people wouldn't equate the two ideas, but I thought I'd help
y'all thru this puff piece.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From bzs@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:42 PDT 1995
Article: 24205 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The Liberation of the Camps
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 23 Jul 1995 05:01:20 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 05:40:33 GMT
Lines: 131


Gosh we've dealt with all these so many times before!

From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Dr. Larson performed autopsies
>at Dachau and some twenty other German camps
	...
>Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was
>the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater,"
>(note 3) informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that "never was
>a case of poison gas uncovered."

Executive Summary:

Poison gas was not much used at the work camps in Germany, it was used
at the infamous extermination camps in Poland, Auschwitz, Birkenau,
Treblinka, Sobibor, etc.

Thus, as we've come to expect from Mr Raven, this is a twisty-turny
bit of pro-Nazi apologist propaganda.

But it gets even better if you read on...

>Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by
>advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing
>to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities
>were seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor,
>housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere lacking.
>Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring such as few
>countries and few times have experienced. (note 5)

One wonders why the images of wretched starving skeletons did not
extend, for example, to surrendering Nazi troops!

But that's not the point.

What Mr Raven is doing here is blaming the Allies, the US, British,
and Soviet troops, who fought Nazism for the millions of camp deaths
in Nazi Germany. Yup, your parents and grandparents killed 'em all
according to Mr Raven.

And now we get to...

>In reality, while camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical
>punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and it
>was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of the
>prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual beating.

The Nazis and SS officers never laid a hand on them, much less killed
them, but...

>that the
>worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps were not the guards
>but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same stripe as those
>who populate U.S. prisons today committed many villainies, particularly
>when they held positions of authority, and fanatical Communists, highly
>organized to combat their many political enemies among the inmates,
>eliminated their foes with Stalinist ruthlessness.

Hmm, maybe it wasn't the Allies, maybe it was the inmates themselves!

Well, in any event according to Raven it certainly wasn't the Nazis,
how dare you think poorly of them!

>As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen- Belsen, and the other camps
>captured by the Allies. There was no end of propaganda about "gas
>chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far not a single detailed
>description of the murder weapon and its function, not a single report of
>the kind that is mandatory for the successful prosecution of any assault
>or murder case in America at that time and today, has come to light.

Strange how he continues with camps inside Germany proper at the time
and seems to carefully avoid the death camps such as Auschwitz,
Birkenau, Treblinka, Sobibor, etc.

But the above is pure bullshit, it's so easy to just type in "no one
has ever proven..." and hope the reader doesn't know better.

What opportunistic crap being peddled to the ignorant and naive.

>It is time that the government and the professional historians revealed
>the facts about Dachau, Buchenwald, and the other camps.

And again the camps in Germany, and no mention of the death camps in
Poland, Auschwitz etc.

Oh and what the heck, the piece of evidence Mr Raven et al hates so
much. The Franke-Gricksch report, a report made by a Nazi officer after
his inspection of Auschwitz and submitted to Heinrich Himmler in 1943:


  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:45 PDT 1995
Article: 24206 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: The Liberation of the Camps
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:33:59 GMT
Lines: 47

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

[The first in a bunch of reposts by Greg "Hitler was a great 
man" Raven, an employee of the IHR]

# Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in 
# Germany at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic 
# delousing, quarantine of the sick, and cremation of the dead, 
# the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public
# health systems led to catastrophe.

Sigh. It was posted here perhaps hundreds of times that the
death rate at the "work camps" was extremely high long
before the end of the war.

A document which even the revisionazis agree is genuine states
that during 6 months in 1942, 80,000 out of 130,000 prisoners
in some of the "work camps" (not the death camps like Treblinka
and Belzec), died. 

This was, of course, long before the "chaos" in Germany toward
the war's end, which the revisionazis claim was the reason for
the 40,000 corpses in Belsen, for instance.

Moreover, numerous inmates were shot and beat to death in the
camps, right till the day they were liberated. I posted many
testimonies from Belsen survivors about this. Also, there 
were hundreds of tons of food nearby Belsen, in the stores
of the Panzer training school; it was simply not given to the
inmates.

# According to Dr. Morgen's sworn testimony at Nuremberg, he 
# investigated 800 such cases, in which over 200 convictions 
# resulted. (note 9) Punishments included the death penalty 
# for the worst offenders, including Hermann Florstedt, 
# commandant of Lublin (Majdanek), and Karl Koch, Ilse's 
# husband, commandant of Buchenwald.

In all, or nearly all of these cases, SS members were tried 
for corruption, not for cruelty against inmates.

BTW, Morgen also testified at length about the mass gassings
at Birkenau, but Raven wouldn't mention that part of his
testimony, now would he?


-Danny Keren.


From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:47 PDT 1995
Article: 24207 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:34:39 GMT
Lines: 65

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

# No serious historian now supports the once supposedly 
# proven story of "extermination camps" in the territory of 
# the old German Reich. 

This is a silly word game. All Holocaust historians agree
that numerous people died in these camps, such as Belsen,
Mauthhausen and others; they are not, however, referred to
as "extermination camps"; this usually refers to camps like
Treblinka and Belzec, which were "pure extermination" centers.

Also, the claim in Weber's article about the gas chambers in 
the "Old Reich" is a lie; gassing did take place in 7 such camps, 
although on a smaller scale than in the death camps the SS built in 
Nazi-occupied Poland.

# But not a single German document has ever been found which even 
# refers to an extermination program. 

Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
NY, 1988, p. 67]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Einsatzgruppen C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.



One document among many which discuss the extermination of
the Jews in Nazi-occupied territory. See also the letter
>from  Wetzel to Lohse I posted earlier today. And numerous
other documents. Weber must be absolutely crazy to write
something like this.

# There is no documentary evidence that Adolf Hitler ever gave 
# an order to exterminate the Jews, 

Speech by Hitler, January 31, 1939
[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals -
Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol XIII, p. 131]
---------------------------------------------------------------
Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers
in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into
a world war, then the result will not be the bolshevization of the earth,
and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in
Europe!




-Danny Keren.











From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:50 PDT 1995
Article: 24208 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: Myths and facts
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:34:54 GMT
Lines: 131

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

# Nearly everyone has heard of Auschwitz, the German 
# concentration camp where great numbers of Jews and others 
# were reportedly exterminated in gas chambers during the 
# Second World War.

SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.




# This image, however, cannot be reconciled with the facts.

 From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.



# Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with 
# Auschwitz were confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a 
# single one refers to a policy or program of extermination. 

A lie, the documents include a very detailed account of the
construction of the gas chambers and crematoriums, as well
as a description of them in action.

# The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the 
# hearsay statements of former Jewish inmates who did not 
# personally see any evidence of extermination. 

Testimony of member of the Auschwitz sonderkommando, Szlama Dragon
[Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 167]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It [crematorium V] had been built on the same model as IV. Both had
four ovens on each of two sides. Three corpses could fit into each
oven. The undressing room and the gas chambers were at ground level.
The gassing operations themselves were carried out in the same way
as in bunkers 1 and 2.

 .
 .
 .

After a little while, Mengele announced that the people were dead; he
said "it's finished". And he left with [SS-men] Scheinmetz in the
Red Cross car. Then [SS-Hauptscharfuehrer] Moll opened the door of
the gas chamber; we put on our masks and dragged the corpses from
the different gas chambers through the corridor into the undressing 
room, then from there through the neighboring corridor to the crematory
ovens. In the first corridor, near the entrance door, the barbers
shaved the heads, and, in the second, dentists pulled out the teeth.



Testimony of Doctor Charles Bendel 
[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge
and Company, 1949, p. 132-133]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Now it is proper hell which is starting. The sonderkommando tries to
work as fast as possible. They drag the corpses by their wrists in
furious haste. People who had human faces before, I cannot recognize
again. They are like devils. A barrister from Salonica, an electrical
engineer from Budapest - they are no longer human beings because, 
even during the work, blows from sticks and rubber truncheons are being
showered over them. During the time this is going on they continue to
shoot people in front of these ditches, people who could not be got 
into the gas chambers because they were over-crowded. After an hour
and a half the whole work has been done and a new transport has been
dealt with in Crematorium No. 4.



# America's leading gas chamber expert, Boston engineer 
# Fred A. Leuchter, carefully examined the supposed "gas chambers" 
# in Poland and concluded that the Auschwitz gassing story is 
# absurd and technically impossible.

Again:

1) Leuchter is not an engineer, he has a BA in the arts.

2) Leuchter is not "America's leading gas chamber expert",
   and our revisionazis here have not been able to name
   one gas chamber he built or ran.

3) The "Leuchter report" is such a piece of garbage that
   even "leading revisionists" like David Cole have given
   up on it and agreed it has no value whatsoever.

More about this in an article I posted earlier today.


-Danny Keren.


From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:52 PDT 1995
Article: 24209 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Inside the 'Gas Chambers'
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:43:29 GMT
Lines: 58

This is a verbatim quote from the cross-examination of Fred 
Leuchter, "revisionist scholar, engineer and scientist":

[Pages 9196-9198 of the transcript in Zundel's trial. 
Cross-examination conducted by Mr. Pearson]:


Q: Now, Mr. Leuchter, Mr. Christie, when he was reviewing your
   qualifications, said that, if my note is correct, you graduated
   from from university in a field that entitles you to function as
   as engineer and you responded in the affirmative to that question?

A: Yes. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree.

Q: You graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree?

A: Right.

Q: When?

A: You mean what year?

Q: What year?

A: 1964.

Q: 1964. And that's the only University degree you have?

A: That's correct.

Q: You don't have a Bachelor of Science degree?

A: No.

Q: You don't have a Master of Science degree; you don't have a 
   Ph.D in science?

A: Correct.

Q: You don't have a degree in engineering?

A: That's correct.

Q: Do you belong to any supervising disciplinary professional body?

A: I don't understand the question, counselor.

Q: Well, do you belong to a governing body of engineers?

A: I -- governing body? I do not understand. Are you saying do I
   belong to any scientific societies?

Q: No, is there any body of engineers that supervises you and
   disciplines you in your engineering function?

A: No. 




From bzs@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:55 PDT 1995
Article: 24210 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Inside the 'Gas Chambers'
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 23 Jul 1995 05:02:11 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 05:51:21 GMT
Lines: 62


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>
>Inside the Auschwitz "Gas Chambers"
>
>FRED A. LEUCHTER, Jr.

Oh come now Mr Raven, you are really just getting desparate. Your own
revisionist nazi-apologist compatriots have completely discredited
Leuchter's tripe.

Here is what David Cole, one of the IHR's own sweethearts (the IHR is
Mr Raven's organization) has to say about the Leuchter report:


               COMMON SENSE ABOUT THE MAJDANEK "GAS CHAMBERS"

                             By David Cole

It is laughable that most anti-revisionists rely on the "Leuchter Report"
for their facts about the Majdanek "gas chambers."

	...

Before we get to common sense about Majdanek, let's have some common sense
about Fred Leuchter. Leuchter was a PAID WITNESS for the defense in the
Zundel trial. He went to Poland knowing what his conclusions "should" be.
Regardless of what he says about his own objectivity, anyone who's taken
the time to watch the video shot during his Poland trip will see that he is
already "convinced" there were no homicidal gas chambers, even though he
hadn't even analyzed his forensic samples yet!

	...

But Leuchter was
ignorant about Holocaust history, unfamiliar with 1930's -1940's delousing
procedures using Zyklon B, and zoomed through the "gas chamber" rooms like
the road runner escaping a coyote. The resulting report is too flawed to be
taken seriously anymore.

	...

But Leuchter's "engineering report" on the gas chambers, that is to say his
technical examination of those rooms, his attempt to see if homicidal
gassings could have been possible there, is junk. Totally useless. He
misses all the important stuff and comes to inaccurate conclusions about
the stuff he DOES concentrate on. He misses things that a three year old
could notice. He sees a depressed walkway and uses that as evidence against
Zyklon B usage, even though a routine observation of Majdanek liberation
photos would have shown him that the depressed walkway was created AFTER
liberation.

	...

His report is a creaky, unreliable relic, yet most revisionists still cling
to it simply because they don't know any better.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:08:57 PDT 1995
Article: 24211 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.netshop.net!pagesat.net!news.cerf.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: The Liberation of the Camps
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:47:03 GMT
Lines: 79

Here's more about these great Nazis and how they treated the
inmates of the "Old Reich" concentration camps; all quoted
>from  "The Belsen Trial".

Testimony of Mr. Harold Le Druillence from Jersey, former prisoner 
in Belsen, who was "employed" as corpse carrier there:

(p. 60-61)

We made our way along the central road towards the burial pit. Along
this road, stationed at intervals, were orderlies to see that the
flow of dead to the pits carried on smoothly; they were particulalry
numerous near the kitchen and the resevoir water. One of the most
cruel things in this particular work was the fact that we passed
this water regularly on every trip, and although we were dying
of thirst we were not allowed to touch it or get anywhere near.

[...]

I would like you to picture what this endless chain of dead going
to the pits must have looked like for about five days from sunrise
to sunset. How many were buried I have no idea. It must have been
vast numbers - certainly five figures. 

You didn't dare to fall out, but many collapsed on the way - just
lay dead by the roadside, or died. They in turn were lifted by a
team of four and taken to the pits. People died like flies on the
way to these pits. They did not have the necessary energy to drag
even those very light bodies. A man who faltered was usually hit
on the head.

(p. 62)

I saw plenty of shooting, usually for no reason at all. Sometimes
there was a hidden reason which we learned of only after many
dozen had been killed; for example, at the north entrance of
the mortuary yard many people had been killed before we realized
that the particular guard in charge of that gateway wanted to
see people go through at the double dragging the dead body
behind. He was a member of the Hungarian guard [1], but the
shooting was not confined to Hungarians; it was simply terrible,
hundreds were shot per day.

[1] Ethnic Germans ("Volkdeutche") from Hungary who were
    recruited to the SS.


Testimony of SS-doctor, Obersturmfuherer Fritz Klein (p. 717):
------------------------------------------------------------
Whilst at Belsen I made several complaints to Kommandant Kramer
about the conditions there. I was told that I was only a doctor
and that it was nothing to do with me. Three days before the
British came, when I took over the camp, I had a talk with
Kramer about the conditions. I told Kramer that the corpses
should be removed, and that water should be supplied to 
prisoners as many were dying from thirst. Kramer said he did
not take orders from me.

Testimony of Herta Ehlert, a member of the SS unit at Belsen (p. 709):
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The conditions in Belsen were a shame and a disgrace. I consider
that the people chiefly responsible were Kramer the Kommandant,
Dr. Horstmann, Untersturmfuehrer Klipp, who was for some time
Kramer's second in command, and Haupsturfuehrer Vogler, who 
worked in Kramer's office and was responsible for food supply.
I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions, among
other reasons, because on one occasion when I complained of the
increasing death rate to Kramer he replied, "let them die, why
should you care?".




-Danny Keren.







From bzs@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:09:01 PDT 1995
Article: 24213 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 23 Jul 1995 05:03:45 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 05:55:55 GMT
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
>
>By Mark Weber
	...
>Captured German Documents
>
>At the end of the Second World War, the Allies confiscated a tremendous
>quantity of German documents dealing with Germany's wartime Jewish policy,
>which was sometimes officially referred to as the "final solution." But
>not a single German document has ever been found which even refers to an
>extermination program. To the contrary, the documents clearly show that
>the German "final solution" policy was one of emigration and deportation,
>not extermination.

Huh?

Speech by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan, 
October 4 and 6, 1943

I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish
race. It's one of those things it is easy to talk about, "the Jewish
race is being exterminated", says one party member, "that's quite
clear, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, and we're doing
it, exterminating them". And then they come, 80 million worthy
Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are
vermin, but this one is an A-1 Jew. Not one of those who talk this way
has watched it, not one of them has gone through it. Most of you know
what it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500, or
1,000.  To have stuck it out and at the same time - apart from
exceptions caused by human weakness - to have remained decent fellows,
that is what has made us hard.  This is a page of glory in our history
which has never been written and is never to be written.

I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and
never speak of. We come to the question: how is it with the women and
the children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear
solution. That is to say I do not consider myself justified in
eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed -
and allowing the avengers in the shape of the children to grow up for
our sons and grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to
cause this Volk [people] to disappear from the earth.

	---

>From  a speech by Adolf Hitler, January 30, 1942, Berlin Sports Palace:

"This war will not end as the Jews imagine, namely, in the liquidation
of all the European and Aryan poeples; the outcome of this war will be
the extermination of Jewry. For the first time it will not be other
nations who will bleed to death. For the first time we will practice
the ancient Jewish law: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

[Yahil, p. 317]

"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

Einsatzgruppe C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941

During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

	Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
	on 16 September 1942

  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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From bzs@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:09:04 PDT 1995
Article: 24214 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 23 Jul 1995 05:04:39 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 05:58:36 GMT
Lines: 36


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>What is "Holocaust Denial"?

mental illness...apparently.

>Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not
>believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed
>during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military
>Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by
>the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of
>which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." (note
>2)
>
>Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians
>could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the
>standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not
>accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all
>causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution,
>likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of
>Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that
>this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

The day Mr Raven acknowledges even, perhaps, 4 million were killed
would be quite a day.

His assertion, of course, is that zero were killed.

And better! He claims if some died it was because of the Allies, not
the Nazis!  (see previous post.)

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From bzs@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:09:07 PDT 1995
Article: 24215 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: Myths and facts
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 23 Jul 1995 05:06:04 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:02:14 GMT
Lines: 117


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Auschwitz: Myths and Facts
>
>by Mark Weber
>
	...

>No Documentary Evidence
>
>Many thousands of secret German documents dealing with Auschwitz were
>confiscated after the war by the Allies. Not a single one refers to a
>policy or program of extermination. In fact, the extermination story
>cannot be reconciled with the documentary evidence.

Huh?

  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.

>From  a speech by Adolf Hitler, January 30, 1942, Berlin Sports Palace:

"This war will not end as the Jews imagine, namely, in the liquidation
of all the European and Aryan poeples; the outcome of this war will be
the extermination of Jewry. For the first time it will not be other
nations who will bleed to death. For the first time we will practice
the ancient Jewish law: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

Speech by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan, 
October 4 and 6, 1943

I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish
race. It's one of those things it is easy to talk about, "the Jewish
race is being exterminated", says one party member, "that's quite
clear, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, and we're doing
it, exterminating them". And then they come, 80 million worthy
Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are
vermin, but this one is an A-1 Jew. Not one of those who talk this way
has watched it, not one of them has gone through it. Most of you know
what it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500, or
1,000.  To have stuck it out and at the same time - apart from
exceptions caused by human weakness - to have remained decent fellows,
that is what has made us hard.  This is a page of glory in our history
which has never been written and is never to be written.

I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and
never speak of. We come to the question: how is it with the women and
the children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear
solution. That is to say I do not consider myself justified in
eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed -
and allowing the avengers in the shape of the children to grow up for
our sons and grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to
cause this Volk [people] to disappear from the earth.


"Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three
vans, without any faults occuring in the vehicles."

	Dr August Becker on 5 June 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff

"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

Einsatzgruppe C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:09:10 PDT 1995
Article: 24216 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Inside the 'Gas Chambers'
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 06:54:30 GMT
Lines: 94

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

[Must be really desperate to post this old rubbish]

# FRED A. LEUCHTER, Jr.

A liar, who claims to be an "engineer", and only holds a
BA in the arts; who claimed to consult prisons on the
construction of gas chambers, although they never heard
of him; and who knows nothing about science or chemistry,
as the following will prove.

There's hardly anything of any substance here - some
"philosophical" musings and a long, boring travel diary;
so, I'll skip over to the "scientific" part.

# Based upon very generous maximum usage rates for all
# the alleged gas chambers, totaling 1,693 persons per week, 

In his complete "report", Leuchter explains how he reached
this insane figure of 1,693 per week. First, he assumes
it would take a week between gassings (plain nonsense,
of course), then he assumes that the density of the people
in the gas chambers was 1 per square yard (totally idiotic,
naturally, like everything else in his "report"; the density
was much higher).

# If these crematories, operated at a theoretical rate of
# maximum output per day, without any down time and at a 
# constant pace (an impossible situation), and we accept the 
# figure of at least six millions executed, the Third Reich 
# lasted for at least forty-two (42) years, since it would take 
# thirty-five (35) years at an impossible minimum to cremate
# these six millions of souls.

As if to prove what an incredible fool Leuchter is, he takes
the total number of Holocaust victims and "computes" the time
it would take to cremate them in Auschwitz *alone*. But, anyway,
even this calculation makes no sense; it would take a far shorter
time. The SS estimated the capacity of the Auschwitz furnaces
at 4,756 corpses per 24 working hours.

# A detailed analysis of the thirty-two samples taken at the
# Auschwitz-Birkenau complexes showed 1,050 mg/kg of cyanide and 
# 6,170 mg/kg of iron. Higher iron results were found at all of 
# the alleged gas chambers but no significant cyanide traces. 
# This would be impossible if these sites were exposed to hydrogen 
# cyanide gas, because the alleged gas chambers supposedly were 
# exposed to much greater quantities of gas than the delousing 
# facility. 

GARBAGE!! He's still posting this garbage, I can't believe it.

Humans die much faster from HCN poisoning than lice, bugs
etc. HCN kills humans fast, in a matter of minutes (that's
why it's still used to execute people in gas chambers in US
prisons); also, the concentration needed is quite low. However,
delousing takes many hours and requires a larger concentration.

Therefore, the gas chambers were exposed to the gas for a far
shorter time than the delousing chambers, which is why there
are less cyanide traces in them. Moreover, they were destroyed
and left in ruins, as opposed to the delousing chambers; and
the elements further reduced the traces.

# Construction of these facilities shows that they were never 
# used as gas chambers. None of these facilities were sealed 
# or gasketed. 

What bloody rubbish.

Leuchter himself admits there are cyanide traces in the gas
chambers, therefore HCN *was used* in them...

# the camp's storm drain system. At Majdanek a depressed walkway 
# around the alleged gas chambers would have collected gas seepage 
# and resulted in a death trap for camp personnel. 

But that gas chamber is soaked to the core with "prussian blue",
which, of course, proves HCN was indeed used in it...

# No exhaust stacks ever existed. Hydrogen cyanide gas is an 
# extremely dangerous and lethal gas and nowhere were
# there any provisions to effect any amount of safe handling. 

But the SS used it for delousing on a massive scale, which
obviously proves that they overcame all these "difficulties".

This is a crucial point; gassing people with HCN is not harder
than delousing with HCN. The SS used it for both purposes,
without any special difficulties.


-Danny Keren.


From jwccti1@aol.com Tue Jul 25 09:09:16 PDT 1995
Article: 24223 of alt.revisionism
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From: jwccti1@aol.com (JWCCTI1)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
Date: 23 Jul 1995 02:39:10 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Greg Raven, a Jew-hater of major proportions writing on the 
    Institute for Historical Revisionism said


> The Institute is sometimes denounced as an anti-Jewish or racist ³hate
> group.² This is a baseless smear.

>  Since its founding, the IHR has steadfastly opposed bigotry of all
kinds
>  in its efforts to promote greater public understanding of history. It
does
>  not seek to whitewash any past regime or rehabilitate any ideology. The
>  IHR is proud of the backing it has earned from people of the most
diverse
>  racial and ethnic backgrounds (including Jewish).


Three years ago, Greg Raven also said ....


>           Category 15,  Topic 4
>            Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
>            G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST

>       My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not
>       interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will
say,
>       however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
>       Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader
of
>       our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was
perfect,
>       but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.


Perhaps we could get Greg to talk about "The Lawsuit" a few years back.

Maybe we could get Greg to talk about the connection between the Institute
for Historical Revisionism and one Fritz Berg.

Maybe we could get Greg to give the Insititute for Historical
Revisionism's street address on Newport Blvd., right down the street.

Maybe we could get Greg to name one official with the IHR who isn't a
rabid antisemite.

Hey, Greg, what do you tell all your neighbors at home about the IHR? 
More to the point, which of your neighbors knows about your connection to
Holocaust revisionism and denial?  

Hey, Greg, don't look now, pal, but you're surrounded and you have to hide
what you do from your neighbors, don't you?  Why aren't you proud of
yourself, Greg? 

Hey, Greg, you only fool yourself.  You don't fool _anybody_ of
consequence.



Jim Collier
Costa Mesa, Calif.




From bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Tue Jul 25 09:09:26 PDT 1995
Article: 24236 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A DAY AT AUSCHWITZ WITH DR
Message-ID: <1995Jul23.012143@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 23 Jul 95 01:21:43 -0500
References: <279443801wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>   
 
Organization: Miami University
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In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> In article <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de>, uroessl1@gwdg.de (Roessler 
> Ulrich) wrote:

>> In short, Mr Baron doesn't know anything about the rather well documented 
>> construction work done in Auschwitz. But even better, he writes about
>> a "testament of Rudolph Hoess" - while Hoess in reality wrote memoirs 
>> and several shorter memorands about different subjects, e.g. about 
>> Himmler while awaiting his trial in Poland. The handwritten manuscripts
>> are still in the Polish archives and could be checked against a handwritten
>> curriculum vitae by Hoess which is in Hoess' SS-file in the Berlin Document
>> Center. (see the edition of Hoess' memoirs by M.Broszat).
>> 
>> Moreover, firstly Hoess testified basically the same in Nuremberg, 
>> and he had several interviews with the psychologist G.M.Gilbert there 
>> (see G.M.Gilbert's  _Nuremberg diary_) Gilbert describes him as 
>> a cooperative and eager witness in his own case. Apparently, Hoess 
>> wanted to represent himself by diminishing his role to that of one 
>> faithful soldier obeying only to orders from above. But Hoess didn't 
>> try to conceal any facts about Auschwitz. Taking all this together, 
>> it is naturally difficult to explain away the evidence produced only by
>> Hoess's behaviour and writings during the time of these trials.
> 
> Re: the crematories. These crematories did not have the ability to
> incinerate in excess of 4,000 bodies per day. For details, see Carlo
> Mattogno's "Auschwitz: The End of a Legend." published by the Institute
> for Historical Review. As Dr. Butz has said, just because a car has a top
> speed of 120 miles per hour doesn't mean it will only take you 30 minutes
> to drive the 60 miles to your relative's house this Thanksgiving.

Then tell us, Greg, how many people can 52 ovens 
cremate in a given day?  2000? 3000?

I fail to see how your hypothetical concoction disputes
the very real facts of this situation.

In a letter to SS General Kammler, a camp official by the name
of Jahrling stated that 4,756 bodies could be cremated in 24 working
hours.  The exact breakdown was:

340 corpses for Krema I
768 for IV and V
and 1440 for II and III.

This letter appears in pressac's Technique and Operation of the
Auschwitz Gas Chambers (see cite below) and is available in GIF
>from  via anonymous ftp from ftp.almanac.bc.ca in the 
directory pub/holocaust/gifs.  the file name is audoc.001.

> Also, Hoess is unreliable as a witness. In his affidavit and in his
> testimony, he states things that are not true.

This requires qualification.  What do you mean by 'he states things
that are not true?'  Do you mean his claim that 2.5 million
died at auschwitz?  That is probably untrue.  Do you mean his
recollections of precise details? he may get things wrong
>from  time to time, Ho"ss is hardly a unique witness in this 
respect.

There is a big difference between getting a date or a name
wrong and being mistaken about the Holocaust happening at all.

Besides, Ho"ss's testimony and memoirs do not exist in a vacuum.
Much of what he said jives with the testimony of other witnesses
and wartime documents.

Ho"ss may not be the ideal witness if you are interested 
in the precise details of how something was done.  That does
not mean he simply imagined the brutaily he oversaw as
commandant of Auschwitz.

-- Brian



From bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Tue Jul 25 09:09:29 PDT 1995
Article: 24239 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A DAY AT AUSCHWITZ WITH DR
Message-ID: <1995Jul23.044513@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 23 Jul 95 04:45:13 -0500
References: <279443801wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>   
  <1995Jul23.012143@miavx1>
Organization: Miami University
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In article <1995Jul23.012143@miavx1>, bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) writes:
> In a letter to SS General Kammler, a camp official by the name
> of Jahrling stated that 4,756 bodies could be cremated in 24 working
> hours.  The exact breakdown was:
> 
> 340 corpses for Krema I
> 768 for IV and V
> and 1440 for II and III.
> 
> This letter appears in pressac's Technique and Operation of the
> Auschwitz Gas Chambers (see cite below) and is available in GIF
> from via anonymous ftp from ftp.almanac.bc.ca in the 
> directory pub/holocaust/gifs.  the file name is audoc.001.

.. Which i neglected to cite at the end
of this article.  Silly me.

the cite is:

Pressac, J.C. _Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the
    Gas Chambers_. New York: Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, 
    1989.  p 247.

-- Brian



From bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Tue Jul 25 09:09:34 PDT 1995
Article: 24240 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Message-ID: <1995Jul23.053946@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 23 Jul 95 05:39:46 -0500
References: 
Organization: Miami University
NNTP-Posting-Host: miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
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In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides
> 
> By Mark Weber
> 
> Just about everyone has heard that the Germans killed some six million
> Jews in Europe during the Second World War. American television, motion
> pictures, newspapers and magazines hammer away on this theme. In
> Washington, DC, an enormous official Holocaust Museum is being built.
> 
> Scholars Challenge Holocaust Story
> 
> During the past decade, though, more and more "Revisionist" historians,
> including respected scholars such as Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern
> University, Prof. Robert Faurisson of the University of Lyon in France and
> best-selling British historian David Irving, have been vigorously
> challenging the widely-accepted extermination story.

Professor Butz is not a historian, and neither is
Faurisson. (Faurisson's degree is in literature.)

David Irving has had all sorts of credbility problems, 
some that have nothing to with hs 'Holocaust Revisionism.'

  -- In 1971, he was successfully sued for libel over his book,
     "The Destruction of Convoy PQ17" by Cptn John Broome, the 
     commander of the convoy.  Irving blamed the fate of the WWII 
     convoy on Cptn Broome, accusing him of desertion and disobeying
     orders.  Irving was fined 40,000 pounds.

  -- His german publisher was sued by Anne Frank's father for
     statements made in Irving's _Hitler's War_.  Irving claimed
     that the diaries were forged.  The pubisher was forced to 
     pay compensation to Mr. Frank.

  -- In 1991, a reporter from the _Independent_ showed that
     Irving selectiuvely edited important lines from a translation
     of Goebbel's diaries.  Those lines Irving 'left out' contradicted
     his thesis that Hitler knew nothing about the Holocaust.

  -- During the 1988 Zundel trial, he was forced to admit under oath
     that he had not read all of Eichmann's testimony.  

.. and these are just a few....


> They do not dispute the fact that large numbers of Jews were deported to
> concentration camps and ghettos, or that many Jews died or were killed
> during the Second World War. Revisionist scholars have, however, presented
> considerable evidence to show that there was no German program to
> exterminate Europe's Jews and that the estimate of six million Jewish
> wartime dead is an irresponsible exaggeration.

Actually, it has been very difficult to pin down 
exactly what the deniers say at all:  It changes
all the time.

I have never seen them stick to a consistent thesis, 
rather they simply try to confuse a naive reader into
having some 'doubts' about the Holocaust.

> Many Holocaust Claims Abandoned
> 
> Revisionists point out that the Holocaust story has changed quite a lot
> over the years. Many extermination claims that were once widely accepted
> have been quietly dropped in recent years.
> 
> At one time it was alleged that the Germans gassed Jews at Dachau,
> Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of
> the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned more
> than twenty years ago.

cites?

Just because Weisenthal says something, that 
doesn't mean every historian agrees with him.

> Prominent Holocaust historians now claim that masses of Jews were gassed
> at just six camps in what is now Poland: Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka,
> Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec. However, the "evidence" presented for
> "gassings" at these six camps is not qualitatively different than the
> "evidence" for alleged "gassings" at the camps in Germany proper.

a lie.

How many wartime documents you want?

Need some eyewitness accounts?

Photos?

There are reams of these available at the touch of the
keyboard.

> At the great Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946 and during the decades following
> the end of the Second World War, Auschwitz (especially Auschwitz-Birkenau)
> and Majdanek (Lublin) were generally regarded as the really important
> "death camps." For example, the Allies alleged at Nuremberg that the
> Germans killed four million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at
> Majdanek. Today, no reputable historian accepts these fantastic figures.

But no reputable historian doubts that the Holocaust happened
either.  

> In addition, more and more striking evidence has been presented in recent
> years which simply cannot be reconciled with the allegations of mass
> exterminations at these camps. For example, detailed aerial reconnaissance
> photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on several random days in 1944
> (during the height of the alleged extermination period there) were made
> public by the CIA in 1979. They show no trace of the piles of corpses,
> smoking chimneys and masses of Jews awaiting death, all of which have been
> alleged and would have been clearly visible if Auschwitz had indeed been
> an extermination center.

This is a straw man argument.

Weber's taking an exaggerated description of Auschwitz
attributed it to 'mainstream historians' and then 
debunked it with some aerial photos.

Nevermind that the gassing and cremation was generally
done _inside_ the Kremas, and that burning corpses in 
open pits was a very rare situation at Auschwitz.

As far as masses of Jews awaiting death, the photos
_do_ show them.  May I quote:

_photo evidence_:  A 10X enlargement of imagery acquired
on August 25 covers only the southern third of Birkenau
and is of very high quality for its day (photo 4).  The
imagery illustrates eyewitness accounts of the death process
at Birkenau.  A rail transport of 33 cars is at the Birkenau 
railhead and debarkation point.  Prisoners can be seen beside 
the train.  [..] ONe group of prisoners is being marched to
Gas Chamber and Creamtorium II.  The gate of that facility is 
open and appears to be the destination of that ill-fated
group.

------

Also, bear in mind that these photos only cover a
few days: April4, june 26, August 25, 13 september,
21 december 1944 and Jan 14, 1945.  

That's only six days. 

> We now also know that the postwar "confession" of Auschwitz commandant
> Rudolf Hoss, which is a crucial part of the Holocaust extermination story,
> was obtained by torture. (note 2)

But his trial testimony and his memoirs were not, 
and they agree with his confession, strangely 
enough.

Of course, you left out all the wartime documents
like the franke-griksch report, Himmler's Posen
speech, the wansee protocols, Eichmann's testimony,
Pery Broad's testimony, various letters between nazis, 
Dr. Kremer's diary, eywitness accounts, etc. etc.

> Other Absurd Holocaust Claims
> 
> At one time it was also seriously claimed that the Germans exterminated
> Jews with electricity and steam, and that they manufactured soap from
> Jewish corpses.
> 
> For example, at Nuremberg the United States charged that the Germans
> killed Jews at Treblinka, not in gas chambers, as is now claimed, but by
> steaming them to death in "steam chambers." (note 3)

a lie of ommision.

they were killed with diesel exhuast.

> These bizarre stories have also been quietly abandoned in recent years.

hmm, what did the Nuremburg trials discover about treblinka?

Did the court rulethat people were killed with steam?

have any historians forwarded this thesis? 

> Disease Claimed Many Inmates
> 
> The Holocaust extermination story is superficially plausible. Everyone has
> seen the horrific photos of dead and dying inmates taken at Bergen-Belsen,
> Nordhausen and other concentration camps when they were liberated by
> British and American forces in the final weeks of the war in Europe. These
> people were unfortunate victims, not of an extermination program, but of
> disease and malnutrition brought on by the complete collapse of Germany in
> the final months of the war. Indeed, if there had been an extermination
> program, the Jews found by Allied forces at the end of the war would have
> long since been killed.

Of course, no one knows why the bulk of deaths occured while
the Reich was going strong. 

strangely enough, it was found that the widespread
starvation was intentional.

> Captured German Documents
> 
> At the end of the Second World War, the Allies confiscated a tremendous
> quantity of German documents dealing with Germany's wartime Jewish policy,
> which was sometimes officially referred to as the "final solution." But
> not a single German document has ever been found which even refers to an
> extermination program. To the contrary, the documents clearly show that
> the German "final solution" policy was one of emigration and deportation,
> not extermination.

a blatant, stupid lie.

I think it's time we reposted the Raven's myopia piece
again.  

> This unambiguous document, and others like it, are routinely suppressed or
> ignored by those who uphold the Holocaust extermination story.

rubbish.

> Hitler and the "Final Solution"
> 
> There is no documentary evidence that Adolf Hitler ever gave an order to
> exterminate the Jews, or that he knew of any extermination program.

But, strangely enough, Eichmann heard the order
and then told Ho"ss about it.

> Six Million?
> 
> There is no real evidence for the incessantly repeated claim that the
> Germans exterminated six million Jews. It is clear, though, that millions
> of Jews "survived" German rule during the Second World War, including many
> who were interned in Auschwitz and other so-called "extermination camps."
> This fact alone should raise serious doubts about the extermination story.

the Wansee protocols showed eleven million Jews living
under reich control.  If they then murdered six million
of these, that leaves five million.  

Hardly a mystery why there were 'millions' of survivors.

> Who Benefits?
> 
> The perpetual Holocaust media blitz is routinely used to justify enormous
> American support for Israel and to excuse otherwise inexcusable Israeli
> policies, even when they conflict with American interests.

and here we have the unavoidable Israel bashing...

> and non-Jews as morally retarded and unreliable beings who can easily turn
> into murderous Nazis under the right circumstances. This self-serving but
> distorted portrayal greatly strengthens Jewish group solidarity and
> self-awareness.

sure, non Jews like... Oskar Schindler.

boy, what a murderous Nazi he was.

> A key lesson of the Holocaust story for Jews is that non-Jews are never
> completely trustworthy. If a people as cultured and as educated as the
> Germans could turn against the Jews, so the thinking goes, than surely no
> non-Jewish nation can ever be completely trusted. The Holocaust message is
> thus one of contempt for humanity.

And here we have the obligitory "the jews are out to get you!"
bullshit.


-- Brian



From bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Tue Jul 25 09:09:37 PDT 1995
Article: 24241 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Message-ID: <1995Jul23.055551@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 23 Jul 95 05:55:51 -0500
References: 
Organization: Miami University
NNTP-Posting-Host: miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
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In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> What is "Holocaust Denial"?
[..snip..]

> Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not
> believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed
> during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military
> Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by
> the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of
> which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." (note
> 2)
> 
> Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians
> could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the
> standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not
> accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all
> causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution,
> likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of
> Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that
> this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Of course, neither Hilberg or Reitlinger doubt that the 
Holocaust occurred.

In fact their work is considered excellent reading for
anyone who studies the Holocuast.

You're splitting hairs a bit too fine, and your silly
attempts to pull Hilberg and Reitlinger into your web 
of deception is highly transparent.

> contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into
> "intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was
> a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter
> hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at
> lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is
> this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents
> after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime
> extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor
> Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of
> German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zuendel. (note 8)

hmmm. What were hilberg's precise words on this?

This wouldn't be the first time you clowns lied about
something he said.

> Auschwitz
> 
> So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most
> Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in
> gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J.
> Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did
> the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From
> 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were
> killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

And, strangely enough, most historians disagree with Mayer's
thesis.

> Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly
> the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar
> Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four
> million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at
> Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands
> of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a
> 1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and
> blessed the four million victims.
> 
> Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today.

Was it ever?  Reitlinger and Hilberg questioned it decades ago.

Reitlinger called it 'ludicrous.'


> Gas Chambers
> 
> What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here
> too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources
> for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While
> Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out
> that

why rely on mayer so much?  There are scads of other historians.

> most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and
> executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and
> bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be
> influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

..which doesn't mean people simply 'imagined' that 
innocents were gassed at auschwitz.


> Hoess Testimony
> 
> One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Hoess, an SS officer
> who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg
> International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to
> support its findings of extermination. (note 14)
> 
> It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his
> so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal),
> are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant
> nearly to death. (note 15) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened
> with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not

I note that you do _not_ reference the threat against
Ho"ss's family.

Also, his initial 'confesion' was extracted under torture, 
but his trial testimony and memiors (written after his 
conviction) were not.

> be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the
> existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp
> ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was
> commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated
> there, and that a further half million died of disease. (note 16) 

He repudiated this figure in his memiors as being too high.

He said it was more like 1.13 million.

> Today no
> reputable historian upholds these figures. Hoess was obviously willing to
> say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to
> try to save himself and his family.

a lie.  If this was true, why did he later claim that the 
2.5 million figure was too high?


> Forensic Investigations
> 
> In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing
> sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas
> chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was
> conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A.
> Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the
> alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if
> they could have been used to kill people as claimed. 

Leuchter is a bungling idiot and a liar.

He lied about his experience and qualifications 
as an engineer while _under oath_.

His study is also an incomparable piece of garbage, 
as 'revisionist scholar' David Cole freely admits.


-- Brian



From A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 25 09:09:54 PDT 1995
Article: 24263 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!abaron.demon.co.uk!A_Baron
From: Alexander Baron 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 95 10:37:33 GMT
Organization: InfoText Manuscripts
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <806495853snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
References:  
Reply-To: A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: abaron.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29

In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:
> Speech by Hitler, January 31, 1939
> [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals -
> Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol XIII, p. 131]
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers
> in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into
> a world war, then the result will not be the bolshevization of the earth,
> and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in
> Europe!

This is typical of your wilful cognitive dissonance, Dr Keren. Why don't you finish
the speech? I'll tell you why, because Hitler vows to avenge Germany on the
International Jews AFTER THE WAR. And again, IF this extermination programme
was so secret, why did he announce its arrival to the world two years before
it is alleged to have begun?

For the record, this speech was actually made January 30, according to the 
Exterminationist R. Landau at any rate. Landau quotes only the first part of
this speech also. 

-- 
Alexander Baron

"He who cannot reason is a fool; he who will not is a bigot; he who dare
not is a slave." - W. Drummond


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Jul 25 09:09:57 PDT 1995
Article: 24266 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Greg Raven's Amazing Illiteracy
Date: 23 Jul 1995 12:10:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3uts9l$hl4@access2.digex.net>
References:  <3urrpr$net@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <3urrpr$net@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
JWCCTI1  wrote:
>You would do so much better in life, Mr. Raven,
>and be held in so much less contempt and be able to list your business
>address in the phone book, if you looked at the context of an issue before
>you piped up. 

    Actually, I think the real problem is that he would do much better if
he could only achieve the reading comprehension of the average fourth
grader.  From his response, it would seem he thought you claimed the money
was stimulating the economy in the US.  You said it came back to the US,
but made no statement about its effect on our own economy - all you did
was _deny_ it stimulated the Israeli economy.  This apparently did not 
register on the tissue-paper-trap mind of our crack "revisionist scholar."

    Similarly, Raven has made claims about the words of Deborah Lipstadt,
Fred Leuchter, Christopher Browning, and most especially Jean-Claude
Pressac that bear little or no relationship to what any literate speaker
of English would recognize as what they said.  And yet the functionally
illiterate Mr. Raven is apparently the best the IHR could come up with to
serve as Associate Editor of the Journal of Historical Review.  This is so
sad. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 09:10:02 PDT 1995
Article: 24274 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust story
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:   <806495853snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:51:29 GMT
Lines: 37

Alexander Baron   wrote:

[Baron's now trying to explain away Hitler's explicit
threat to exterminate the Jews of Europe]

# dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:

## Speech by Hitler, January 31, 1939
## [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals -
## Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol XIII, p. 131]
##  ---------------------------------------------------------------
## Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish 
## financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the 
## nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be 
## the bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, 
## but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!

# This is typical of your wilful cognitive dissonance, Dr Keren. 
# Why don't you finish the speech? I'll tell you why, because Hitler 
# vows to avenge Germany on the International Jews AFTER THE WAR. 

Where does he say this? And what does it matter, if he did?
The intent is there.

# And again, IF this extermination programme was so secret, 
# why did he announce its arrival to the world two years before 
# it is alleged to have begun?

Probably he got carried away; like we often see our revisionazis
here get carried away and say things they later regret having said.

BTW, Hitler re-declared his desire to exterminate the Jews a few
other times, like in his meeting with the Arab Mufti.


-Danny Keren.



From kmcvay@nanaimo.island.net Tue Jul 25 09:10:12 PDT 1995
Article: 24282 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.island.net!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nanaimo.island.net (Ken McVay)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Liberation of the Camps
Date: 24 Jul 1995 09:05:26 -0700
Organization: Island Internet Inc. - (604) 753-2383
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <3v0gc6$8un@nanaimo.island.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: epaus.island.net

In article ,
Greg Raven, recently exposed as a liar with regard to the Browning and
Lipstadt remarks concerning Hoess, regurgitates:

>The "Liberation of the Camps": FACTS vs. LIES

Coming from Mr. Raven, it should be interesting, if nothing else.

>At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention
>camps, horrified American infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying
>inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising stories
>of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by showing the GI's
>crematory ovens, alleged gas chambers, supposed implements of torture,
>even shrunken heads and lampshades, gloves, and handbags purportedly made
>from skin flayed from dead inmates.

Does Mr. Raven then deny the existence of these artifacts of skin?
Will he, since he's given up answering the questions addressed to him,
and the requests for proof of his Hoess remarks, now also regurgitate the
IHR's old nonsense about Ilse Koch?

[snip]

>For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps -- the dead and the
>diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of torture
>and terror -- became the basis not simply of a transitory propaganda
>campaign but of the conviction that yes, it was true: the Germans did
>exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas chambers. What

What historian, one might ask, claimed that "most" of the six million Jewish
victims of the Holocaust were exterminated in gas chambers? How many are
"most?" Why does Mr. Raven not mention the other six million victims?

[snip]

>A Different Reality

[snip]

>Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an American
>journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews were
>exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." (note 2) And what part was the
>hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was
>the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater,"
>(note 3) informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that "never was
>a case of poison gas uncovered." (note 4) Neither Dr. Larson nor any other
>forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust historian to
>substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether Zyklon-B or any
>other variety.

Here, Mr. Raven's duplicity comes shining through. First, of course, is the
fact that Dr. Larson did not do any forensic research in the death camps of
Poland: Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka, Belzec. Second, since the corpses 
at these camps were disposed of rapidly (by cremation), there would have
been relatively few bodies to study.

Mr. Raven, of course, rather hopes that no-one will notice this strange
bit of verbal convolution.

[snip]

>Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the
>contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of
>extermination through starvation in the German camps.

Utter nonsense, as Mr. Raven and his cohorts know full well. I suggest that
Mr. Raven, a "revisionist scholar," investigate the infamous Buna Soup
diet of Monowiz, which resulted in a weight loss of from six to nine pounds
per week - and this was an _enhanced_ diet, unavailable to other victims
at Auschwitz! (For those with ftp access, who, unlike Mr. Raven, are
actually interested in the truth, try
ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/german/farben.ig/farben.002, which will
demonstrate the true value of Mr. Raven's (and Mr. O'Keefe's) "scholarship."

>No Lampshades, No Handbags, Etc.

[snip]

Mr. O'Keefe's contentions regarding the flaying of tattooed prisoners
are interesting only in their lack of information about the subject.
O'Keefe's intention is clearly to lead readers to believe that Koch was
the only Nazi accused of these horrid acts. In fact, she was not the
only one accused, as I am certain Mr. Raven and Mr. O'Keefe know full well.

Why aren't the others mentioned? Perhaps Mr. Raven will tell us, when he
runs out of mildewed old IHR material?

Somehow, I doubt it. Mr. Raven, after all, admires Adolf Hitler, and makes
his living peddling lies. There isn't much money in truth these days,
is there, Mr. Raven?

By the way, Mr. Raven... when do you plan to post your documentation with
regard to Browning and Lipstadt? Are you afraid to?
-- 
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca	kmcvay@mala.bc.ca
kmcvay@epaus.island.net		kmcvay@port.island.net
kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca     (preferred)
                 http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay


From kmcvay@nanaimo.island.net Tue Jul 25 09:10:14 PDT 1995
Article: 24283 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.island.net!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nanaimo.island.net (Ken McVay)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Human Soap': Raven hopes we've forgotten
Date: 24 Jul 1995 09:12:13 -0700
Organization: Island Internet Inc. - (604) 753-2383
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <3v0got$987@nanaimo.island.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: epaus.island.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>"Jewish Soap"
>
>by Mark Weber

[Raven's often-posted Weber article zapped]

Mr. Raven... since Mr. Weber lacks the courage to post to the net, perhaps
you can ask him, since he _is_ a historian, to provide you with his
refutation of the testimony of Mazur et al at Nuremberg.

I have asked Bradley Smith for this refutation.
He failed to provide it.

I have asked Fritz Berg for this refutation.
He failed to provide it.

I have asked _you_ for this refutation.
Guess what? You can't provide it either.

Why is that, Mr. Raven?
You say you don't have it?
You say it doesn't exist?
-- 
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca	kmcvay@mala.bc.ca
kmcvay@epaus.island.net		kmcvay@port.island.net
kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca     (preferred)
                 http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay


From yawen.enter.net Tue Jul 25 09:10:17 PDT 1995
Article: 24285 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.enter.net!usenet
From: yawen.enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
Date: 24 Jul 1995 14:14:33 GMT
Organization: ENTER.NET
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp7.enter.net
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>  A Few Facts About the INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
>  
>  The Institute does not ³deny the Holocaust.² . . . . . At the same time, though, a growing body of 
documentary,  forensic and other evidence shows that much of what weıre told about the
>  ³Holocaust² is exaggerated or simply not true.  
>>>>
      I see you do not "deny" the Holocaust you just say that it's "simply not true."

      Darn it all, you taken the fun out of the chase for this observer.  Generally it takes days of effort for 
the experts to pin down the cranks, liars, and anti-semites who deny the Holocaust and force them to 
contradict themselves.  You managed to do it in one paragraph.

      ---Yale F. Edeiken


From kfilan@netcom.com Tue Jul 25 09:10:21 PDT 1995
Article: 24288 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!kfilan
From: kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan)
Subject: Re: The US Holocaust Museum - A dangerous and costly mistake
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3uud9g$neq@news.cais.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 03:11:16 GMT
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Sender: kfilan@netcom21.netcom.com

jlupton@ids2.idsonline.com wrote:

: Mr. O'keefe's views on the Holocaust Museum are indeed correct.  The
museum is important to : the JEWS as a monument to their auesome power
over U.S. politicians.  Every member of the : Congress can look at the
museum and understand that if he fails to support AIPAC, he will not be :
in the congress next term.  The Jews have hijacked our political process
and shameful thing is : that most US citizens haven't a clue>

	Umm, Mr. Baron... you were saying that we call many revisionists 
"crazies" or "lunatics" ...

Peace
Kevin Filan
-- 
________________________________________________________________
Kevin Filan			*	P.O. Box 231582
kfilan@netcom.com		*	Old Statehouse Station
Rakshasa PODSnet, FidoNet, IRC	*	Hartford, CT 06123
________________________________________________________________   
"Toto... I don't think we're in Kansas anymore..."


From uroessl1@gwdg.de Tue Jul 25 10:12:47 PDT 1995
Article: 24303 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!gs.dfn.de!news.gwdg.de!news.gwdg.de!not-for-mail
From: uroessl1@gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A DAY AT AUSCHWITZ WITH DR
Date: 23 Jul 1995 18:17:42 +0200
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <3utsn6$j9q@gwdu19.gwdg.de>
References: <279443801wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>  <805912930snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <1995Jul17.231906@miavx1> <806071980snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <3uhb6n$16vi@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> <806192657snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: gwdu19.gwdg.de
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #6 (NOV)

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <3uokqe$qsa@gwdu19.gwdg.de>, uroessl1@gwdg.de (Roessler 
>Ulrich) wrote:

...

>Re: the crematories. These crematories did not have the ability to
>incinerate in excess of 4,000 bodies per day. For details, see Carlo
>Mattogno's "Auschwitz: The End of a Legend." published by the Institute
>for Historical Review. As Dr. Butz has said, just because a car has a top
>speed of 120 miles per hour doesn't mean it will only take you 30 minutes
>to drive the 60 miles to your relative's house this Thanksgiving.

This is the sort of research done in the IHR. They are trying to
reach historiographic hell in 30 minutes ... at top speed, so to say.

>Also, Hoess is unreliable as a witness. In his affidavit and in his
>testimony, he states things that are not true. It doesn't matter how many
>times he stated these things, or in what form he stated them, they are
>still not true. 

And this is so because you say so.

>            Both Christopher Browning and Deborah Lipstadt have stated
>(Vanity Fair, December 1993) that Hoess was an unreliable witness. 

Another lie - none of those two researchers doubts that Hoess was reliable
in his confession that he was the commander of a killing-factory. 

>                                                                   The
>bottom line is that just because Hoess said something about Auschwitz,
>this does not mean that these utterances are automatically "facts."

>From  the fact that details, dates or certain instances are not exact
in a testimony it can't be infered that the very testimony may be 
rejected as a whole. The general outline of Hoess description of Auschwitz
may yet be cross-checked with enough other witnesses and documents -
so his reliability may be sufficiently assesssed - even in detail.

The impresicion of Hoess, Browning e.g. deplores, has only to do with
the exact dating of certain decisions around Auschwitz and the constructions
there. If the historians knew exactly WHEN Hoess was ordered to prepare
the extermination-center in Auschwitz the exact organization and relation
to the _Einsatzgruppen_-orders would be better understood. This has to
do with the question when and how exactly the decision to the 'final
solution' was taken.

Well Mr.Raven, in the 'ausrotten'-case a few weeks ago there wasn't 
any answer, as usual you simply disappeared.  

Your nonsensical propaganda may be transparent to everybody now.
Why do you think it profitable to your reputation to wage another piece 
of nonsensical propaganda? 

There is no reason, not to call you a well-documented repugnant liar.

Sometimes, there are people who blush only in reaction 
to a good measure of boxes.

u.roessler                                              uroessl1@gwdg.de


From dkeren@world.std.com Tue Jul 25 10:12:50 PDT 1995
Article: 24305 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <3s2rqj$3csa@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de> 
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 23:12:33 GMT
Lines: 43
Xref: news.port.island.net talk.politics.misc:213703 talk.politics.guns:160507 soc.culture.jewish:107853 misc.legal:76397 alt.revisionism:24305 alt.politics.org.batf:5194 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:184910 alt.conspiracy:72931

Greg Raven  wrote:

# By unifying the German people and driving out foreign elements, 
# Hitler united the people in a way that is difficult to imagine 
# in these "multi-cultural" times.

Ah yes, Raven rushes to protect his hero, what a surprise...

Greg Raven works for the IHR = "Institute for Historical Review",
a tiny organization of crackpots who deny the Holocaust ever
took place, and spend their lives trying to prove the Nazis
were really great guys and that it's the Allies and the Soviets
who are responsible for everything bad that's happened during WW2.

One can look at alt.revisionism to see some of Raven's typical
"arguments". They range from pseudo-scientific rubbish about
"difficulties with gassing" to "all witnesses are lying", etc.

Like his fellow "revisionists", Raven doesn't bother to hide
his great love and admiration to his hero, Adolf Hitler:



Category 15,  Topic 4
G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST

My only concern is in going after the facts. As such, I am not
interested in defending Adolf Hitler to my dying breath. I will say,
however, that he was a great man ... certainly greater than
Churchill and FDR put together, and possibly the greatest leader of
our century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect,
but he about the best thing that could have happened to Germany.



#  and coersion was not necessary.

Tell that to the Germans Hitler sent to Dachau, Belsen, and
Mauthhausen. 


-Danny Keren.



From yawen.enter.net Tue Jul 25 10:12:52 PDT 1995
Article: 24306 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.netshop.net!pagesat.net!news.cerf.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.enter.net!usenet
From: yawen.enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 24 Jul 1995 13:31:54 GMT
Organization: ENTER.NET
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp7.enter.net
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>  What is "Holocaust Denial"?
>  
>  the Holocaust story that
>  some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the
>  Second World War, __ most of them in gas chambers.___ (emphasis added)
>  
      Before this particular strawman leaps from its perch and soft shoes down the yellow brick road 
singing "If I only had a Brain"  please tell us which Holocaust historians define the Holocaust in this 
fashion.  Hilberg does not and Davidowicz does not.  These are the only two I have at home.  Before I 
run off to the library save me a little time.  Who are you talking about?  Or are you just talking through 
your hat -- as usual?

      --Yale F. Edeiken


From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jul 25 10:55:19 PDT 1995
Article: 24312 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: 25 Jul 1995 10:53:11 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <3v3b27$1n1@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.60.231.126

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:

>What is "Holocaust Denial"?

>In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed
>danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn
>about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that
>some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the
>Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

Actually, the Holocaust reality is that nearly TWELVE million people
were extermined during the period, a minority of them in gas
chambers. After all this discussion, here on the net, one would
think that Mr. Raven would, just once, get something right...

[snip]

>Human Soap?

[snip]

Does Mr. Raven present evidence which refutes the testimony of Mazur
et al, with regard to the soap experiments? He does not, although he
has been asked to produce it for a year or so.

In short, Mr. Raven _cannot_ refute Mazur's testimony about the
experiments into producing soap from human fat.

[snip]

>Auschwitz

>So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most
>Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in
>gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J.
>Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did
>the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From
>1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were
>killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

It is interesting to note that Mr. Raven does not provide Dr.
Mayer's quotation in context... why do you suppose that is? Since
Mr. Raven forgot to do that, I will do it on his behalf... he is,
after all, a "revisionist scholar," and wouldn't deliberately have
withheld this information from us, now would he?

      "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and
      unreliable.  Even though Hitler and the Nazis made no secret of
-->   their war on the Jews, the SS operatives dutifully eliminated
      all traces of their murderous activities and instruments.  No
      written orders for gassing have turned up thus far.  The SS not
      only destroyed most camp records, which were in any case
      incomplete, but also razed nearly all killing and cremating
      installations well before the arrival of Soviet troops.
      Likewise, care was taken to dispose of the bones and ashes of
      the victims. 

      "Most of what is known is based on the deposition of Nazi
      officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory
      of survivors and bystanders.  This testimony must be screend
      carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of
      great complexity.  Diaries are rare, and so are authentic
      documents about the making, transmission, and implementation of
      the extermination policy.  But additional evidence may still
      come to light.  Private journals and official papers are likely
      to surface.  Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the four
      out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the
      Soviet archives may well yield significant clues and evidence
      when they are opened.  In addition, excavation at the killing
      sites and in their immediate environs may also bring forth new
      information.

      "In the meantime, there is no denying the many contradictions,
      ambiguities, and errors in the existing sources.  These cannot
-->   be ignored, *although it must be emphasized strongly that such
-->   defects are altogether insufficient to put in question the use
-->   of gas chambers in the mass murder of Jews at Auschwitz*.
      [emphasis mine]  Much the same is true for the conflicting
      estimates and extrapolations of the number of victims, since
      there are no reliable statistics to work with.  *Just as the
      fact of the Jewish ordeal at Auschwitz is not contingent on the
-->   use of gas chambers, so the crime of gassing does not turn upon
-->   the exact number of Jews gassed*." (Mayer, 362-363) 

Since Mr. Raven suffers from an acute form of myopia, let's
re-examine Mayer's words: "..such defects are altogether
insufficient to put in question the use of gas chambers in the mass
murder of Jews at Auschwitz."

Why didn't Mr. Raven share this quote with us, since he obviously
considers Mayer to be a credible historian?

Well, Mr. Raven?

[snip]

Later, in his article, Mr. Raven once again turns to Mayer, but,
once again, neglects to include the text I've provided above... you
don't suppose that Mr. Raven hoped that his readers would not know
of Mayer's position, do you?

>Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in
>Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote (p.
>366):

>. . . Many questions remain open . . . All in all, how many bodies were
>cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the
>national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims?
>How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were
>deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those
>murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to
>these questions at this time.

>Gas Chambers

>What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here
>too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources
>for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While
>Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out
>that
>
>most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and
>executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and
>bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be
>influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

Fascinating! Mr. Raven skirts to the left, then to the right, then
above, then below, the Mayer assertion about the use of gas chambers
for the mass murder of Jews. It has become obvious that Mr. Raven is
fully acquainted with the text, and yet he seems unable to include
it, although he selectively includes nearly everything else.

You don't suppose that Mr. Raven is trying to pull one over on us,
do you?

Given the seriously flawed (to be kind) use of Arno Mayer's work,
and Mr. Raven's duplicious "scholarship," it hardly seems necessary
to deal with the rest of his article.

-- 
     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
 Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction - permanently!)
    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay


From k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu Wed Jul 26 05:49:33 PDT 1995
Article: 24337 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!gumby!kzoo!k044477
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Message-ID: <1995Jul24.155111.19117@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006
References: <1995Jul18.180521.22084@news.wrc.xerox.com> <3uif2j$q5o@dscomsa.desy.de> 
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 15:51:11 GMT
Lines: 70
Xref: news.port.island.net talk.politics.misc:213880 talk.politics.guns:160651 soc.culture.jewish:107924 misc.legal:76456 alt.revisionism:24337 alt.politics.org.batf:5231 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:185075 alt.conspiracy:73019

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote (among other things):
>
>By unifying the German
>people and driving out foreign elements, Hitler united the people in a way
>that is difficult to imagine in these "multi-cultural" times.

Aha -- you're back, I see, Mr. Raven.

For those observers who are not familiar with Mr. Raven:  he is the
associate editor of the Journal of Historical Review.  This magazine is
the main periodical publication of the Institute for Historical Review,
which is probably the world's most successful organization dedicated to
Holocaust-denial and (to a lesser extent) anti-Semitism in general.

Mr. Raven, on July 19th, I sent you email that began by saying:

   On your home page, you promise:
   
      If you find material on this Web site that is untrue, please tell
      me and I will change it.
   
   I am hereby telling you.
   
   I have proof that each of the paragraphs which I've quoted below
   contains either an outright falsehood, or a misrepresentation that
   is so egregious that it can be considered to be a falsehood.
   
   I would like to ask you to change this material.

I'll omit the fifteen paragraphs which then followed, because the
distribution of this Usenet article is sufficiently wide that few
readers will care, percentage-wise.

I never received an answer to that email, Mr. Raven;  yet, three days
later, you deemed a Usenet article about Hitler to be of sufficient
important to merit a response.

I note that the promise which I quoted above, the promise which you are
apparently refusing to honor, is still present on your home page.  In
other words, Mr. Raven, your claim of "I will change it" is another lie.
(Hey, perhaps this should be a sixteenth paragraph?)

Please don't make yourself into any more of a liar than you already
are, Mr. Raven.  I have told you of "material on [your] Web site which
is untrue" and I have offered to explain to you in as much detail as you
like why it is untrue.  It is now up to you to live up to your end of
the bargain:  "I will change it."

>--
>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
>Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

Indeed!  _Do_ visit his home page, and see for yourself that the
"I will change it" lie is still present.

For more examples of Greg Raven's lies, see our Web pages at
www.almanac.bc.ca; two good starting places specifically related to
Mr. Raven are:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/rue/RUE2-RavenTrustworthy.html
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/rue/RUEann-R2.html

Followups are directed to the newsgroup where Hitler-wasn't-so-bad-ism
belongs:  alt.revisionism.

Posted, and emailed to Mr. Raven.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy  k044477@kzoo.edu  jrm0@aol.com  http://www.kzoo.edu/~k044477/
 I speak only for myself.            Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless otherwise specified, I consider pro-"revisionism" email public domain.


From yawen.enter.net Wed Jul 26 06:15:24 PDT 1995
Article: 24367 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.enter.net!usenet
From: yawen.enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
Date: 24 Jul 1995 14:02:12 GMT
Organization: ENTER.NET
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3v0954$jt8@dns.enter.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp7.enter.net
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>  A Few Facts About the INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
>>>>

      There are a few facts that you seem to have omitted.  The IHR is and has always been a front 
group for the political ideas of Willis Carto, a well-known anti-semite.  In order to harrass his critics Carto 
has filed numerous lawsuits all of which have been dismissed as frivolous and brought only to harrass 
his critics.  After examining the evidence Robert Bork commented:

       "There is evidence in the record that Mr. Carto designed the Liberty Lobby/Legion/Noontide?IHR 
network so as to divorce Liberty Lobby's name from those of it less reputable affiliates.  It is Mr. Carto's 
right to pour his political activities into whatever corporate shell he desires.  What he may not do is 
silence those who see through the form to reality."  838 F.2d 1287, 1296 (1988)

      Bork also noted, again after a review of the evidence: ". . .if the term 'anti-Semitic' has a core, 
factual meaning, then the truth of the description was proved here."  838 F.2d 1287, 1297 (1988)

      Why don't you believe in truth in packaging, Mr. Raven?  Why do you deliberately conceal and 
deny the fact that your group was set up as shell to promote anti-Semitic activities?  Why do you pose 
as objective publishers when all those examining the evidence have found that you are not?    Has the 
concept of "truth in packaging"  ever been explained to anybody in power at the IHR?

     --Yale. F. Edeiken


From ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Wed Jul 26 15:23:39 PDT 1995
Article: 24382 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ah787
From: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
Subject: Re: The Liberation of the Camps
Message-ID: 
Sender: ah787@freenet3.carleton.ca (Bill Stuart)
Reply-To: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 19:59:01 GMT
Lines: 103

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:
> The "Liberation of the Camps": FACTS vs. LIES

	Thank you for the "lie" side...

> A Different Reality
> 
> But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the camps,
> American authorities were aware that the real story of the camps was quite
> different from the one in which they were coaching military public
> information officers, government spokesmen, politicians, journalists, and
> other mouthpieces.

	It is known only to those who beleive that the reptors have
secretly planted mind-control devices into the brains of ATF agents, and
that high school dropouts living off the public dole are the only ones to
see the truth.

> Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an American
> journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews were
> exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." (note 2) And what part was the
> hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was
> the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater,"
> (note 3) informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that "never was
> a case of poison gas uncovered." (note 4) Neither Dr. Larson nor any other
> forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust historian to
> substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether Zyklon-B or any
> other variety.

	I'd like some more information on Dr. Larson. How did he wind up
going to germany after the war? Specifically, how did an american doctor
wind up in the british sector after the war? How did Larson become the
only pathologist sent from many different countries (britain, france,
america, Canada, spain, greece, australia)? 
	No poison gassings have ever been proven. It has also not been
proven that the earth existed a second ago. If there are ten thousand
corpses and/or records of corpses, and poison gas canisters, and gassing
chambers, and eyewitnesses, and medical records from doctors testifying
as to the probable cause of death, and nazis who said "Yes, i did it", it
doesn't take a genius to deduce that poison gassings did occur.

> If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald,
> and Bergen- Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death? Deliberately
> starved? The answers to these questions are known as well. As Dr. Larson
> and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of death at
> Dachau, Belsen, and the other camps was disease, above all typhus, an old
> and terrible scourge of mankind which until recently flourished in places
> where populations were crowded together in circumstances where public
> health measures were unknown or had broken down. Such was the case in the
> overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war's end, where, despite such
> measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick, and cremation of
> the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public
> health systems led to catastrophe.

	Cyanide gas is useless as a delousing agent with resepct to ticks.
The fact that 1 out of ten died from gassings while 8 out of ten died from
cyanide does nothing to diminish the fact that nine out of ten inmantes
died (numbers are not representative).
 
> Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a
> psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
> British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered
> to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a
> Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who died at the
> Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren't deliberately
> starved to death but died from a rash of diseases." (note 6) Dr. Barton
> further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of
> deliberate starvations but had decided such stories were untrue after
> inspecting the wellequipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained
> ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.
> Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the
> contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of
> extermination through starvation in the German camps.

	Except for the hours of footage shot of starvingprison camp
survivors. How can you explain the footage of people whi were kept in
prison camps and were at most a week without german soldiers nearby? You
can't lose that much weight in a week, even if you stop eating altogether.

> U.S. Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps, quickly
> ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates: that the
> worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps were not the guards
> but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same stripe as those
> who populate U.S. prisons today committed many villainies, particularly
> when they held positions of authority, and fanatical Communists, highly
> organized to combat their many political enemies among the inmates,
> eliminated their foes with Stalinist ruthlessness.

	With what? How? Weren't they dying of typhus?

> surfaced to reconcile such problems as the function of the shower heads:
> Were they "dummies," or did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each
> theory has appreciable support in journalistic and historiographical
> literature.)

	Maybe it was cheaper not to remove them? Maybe the room was
converted from a shower to a gas chamber?


--
You will die an agonizing death, alone and peniless.
	-Jojo's psychotic alliance



From billibek@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 27 10:35:21 PDT 1995
Article: 24415 of alt.revisionism
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From: billibek@ix.netcom.com (Billy Beck)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Pat Buchanan
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 03:32:04 GMT
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Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:24415 alt.conspiracy:73231

k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy) wrote:

>Please don't make yourself into any more of a liar than you already
>are, Mr. Raven.  I have told you of "material on [your] Web site which
>is untrue" and I have offered to explain to you in as much detail as you
>like why it is untrue.  It is now up to you to live up to your end of
>the bargain:  "I will change it."

	You're right.  I visited that page last night (while looking around to
see if WAR is online), and I saw that promise.  I couldn't even
believe it when I saw it.

	I guess I was right, huh?


Billy



From ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Jul 27 10:35:59 PDT 1995
Article: 24464 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ah787
From: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
Subject: Re: Inside the 'Gas Chambers'
Message-ID: 
Sender: ah787@freenet3.carleton.ca (Bill Stuart)
Reply-To: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 01:35:19 GMT
Lines: 200


Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:
> Inside the Auschwitz "Gas Chambers"
> 
> FRED A. LEUCHTER, Jr.
> 
> Introduction
> 
> 1988 was a very informative and likewise disturbing year. I was appalled
> to learn that much of what I was taught in school about twentieth-century
> history and World War II was a myth, if not a lie. I was first amazed;
> then annoyed; then aware: 

	And finally brain-damaged!


> Background
> 
> I have for the past nine years worked with most, if not all of the states
> in the United States having capital punishment. I design and manufacture
> execution equipment of all types, including electrocution systems, lethal
> injection equipment, gallows and gas-chamber hardware. 

	no you do not. You are an unemployed plumber, and the only
reference you gave was one guy at a jail in the southern states who you
claimed to have talekd to. He denied ever meeting you. 

> I have consulted for, or supplied equipment to, most of the applicable
> states and the federal government.

	Again, you have not.

> We boarded the Polish airlines plane after clearing customs -- my suitcase
> containing twenty pounds of the forbidden samples, fortunately none of
> which were found. I did not breathe easy until we cleared the passport
> checkpoint at Frankfurt. Our team split at Frankfurt, for the return trips
> to the United States and Canada, respectively. After our return [on March
> 3], I delivered the forensic samples to the test laboratory in
> Massachusetts. Upon receipt of the test results, I prepared my report,
> combining my knowledge of gas execution facil-ities and procedures with
> the research I had completed at crematories and with retort manu-facturers
> in the United States. With the results of my research I believe you are
> all familiar.
> 
> Upon completion of my report I testified at Toronto -- but that is another
> story, for another time.

	It's called "How Fred Leutcher was chastised by the judge
for lying in court".

> The Findings
> 
> 1. Gas Chambers
> 
> The results published in the Leuchter Report are the important thing.
> Categorically, none of the facilities examined at Auschwitz, Birkenau or
> Lublin could have supported, or in fact did support, multiple executions
> utilizing hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide or any other allegedly or
> factually lethal gas. Based upon very generous maximum usage rates for all
> the alleged gas chambers, totalling 1,693 persons per week, and assuming
> these facilities could support gas executions, it would have required
> sixty-eight (68) years to execute the alleged number of six millions of
> persons. This must mean the Third Reich was in existence for some
> seventy-five (75) years. Promoting these facilities as being capable of
> effecting mass, multiple or even singular executions is both ludicrous and
> insulting to every individual on this planet. Further, those who do
> promote this mistruth are negligent and irresponsible for not
> investigating these facilities earlier and ascertaining the truth before
> indoctrinating the world with what may have become the greatest propaganda
> ploy in history.

	There is a large problem with your math. IT'S NOT THERE. How did
you arrive at this 75 year figure? Did you use your vast plumbing skills?
I realize that Mr. Leecher didn't write this, but perhaps Mr. RAven could
shed some light on my questions.
 
> 2. Crematories
> 
> Of equal importance are Exterminationist errors relating to the
> crematories. If these crematories, operated at a theoretical rate of
> maximum output per day, without any down time and at a constant pace (an
> impossible situation), and we accept the figure of at least six millions
> executed, the Third Reich lasted for at least forty-two (42) years, since
> it would take thirty-five (35) years at an impossible minimum to cremate
> these six millions of souls.

	I've seen this figure, it's based on the time it takes a modern
creamtoria to heat up, incinerate a corpse, get cleaned, and cool down. 

> 3. Forensics
> 
> Forensic samples were taken from the visited sites. A control sample was
> removed from delous-ing facility 1 at Birkenau. It was postulated that
> because of the high iron content of the building materials at these camps
> the presence of hydrogen cyanide gas would result in a
> ferric-ferro-cyanide compound being formed, as evidenced by the Prus-sian
> blue staining on the walls in the delousing facilities.

	Iron is notorious for mixing with water and forming rust. Do you
think that some of the iron might have rusted off and/or been washed away
after 40 years? Do you think that the walls being incinerated by the
allies (in some cases) might affect the chemical composition? 

> A detailed analysis of the thirty-two samples taken at the
> Auschwitz-Birkenau complexes showed 1,050 mg/kg of cyanide and 6,170 mg/kg
> of iron. Higher iron results were found at all of the alleged gas chambers
> but no significant cyanide traces. This would be impossible if these sites
> were exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas, because the alleged gas chambers
> supposedly were exposed to much greater quantities of gas than the
> delousing facility. Thus, chemical analysis supports the fact that these
> facilities were never utilized as gas execution facilities.

	A detailed analysis will reveal that the lab reports would not
give a measurement in "Mg/kg". They might use "Mg/m^2" or PPM. I've never
seen "Mg/kg" used with regard to chemical concentration my life. 
	In fact, "Mg/kg" would be a measurement of mass. The only way you
could get that would be to physically seperate the iron from the cyanide
and weigh both. I think the numbers in this segment are totally
ficticious.
	A mass measurement would be totally useless when dealing with
small amounts of material. 

> 4. Construction
> 
> Construction of these facilities shows that they were never used as gas
> chambers. None of these facilities were sealed or gasketed. No provision
> was ever made to prevent condensation of gas on the walls, floor or
> ceiling. No provision ever existed to exhaust the air-gas mixture from
> these buildings. No provision ever existed to introduce or distribute the
> gas throughout the chamber. No explosion-proof lighting existed and no
> attempt was ever made to prevent gas from entering the crematories, even
> though the gas is highly explosive. No attempt was made to protect
> operating personnel from exposure to the gas or to protect other
> non-participating persons from exposure. Specifically, at Auschwitz, a
> floor drain in the alleged gas chamber was connected directly to 

	Cyanide will mix instantly with air and disperse to maximum
possible concentration in a few seconds. 
	The operating personel were jewish. No attempt was made at safety.
	No provision existed to remove the gas from the room because it
instatly disperses, just like food coloring in a bathtub. 

> the camp's storm drain system. At Majdanek a depressed walkway around the
> alleged gas chambers would have collected gas seepage and resulted in a
> death trap for camp personnel. No exhaust stacks ever existed. Hydrogen
> cyanide gas is an extremely dangerous and lethal gas and nowhere were
> there any provisions to effect any amount of safe handling. The chambers
> were too small to accommodate more than a small fraction of the alleged
> numbers. Plain and simple, these facilities could not have operated as
> execution gas chambers.

	The gas does not drift downwards. It disperses very rapidly. Any
seepage would drift into the atmosphere.
 
> 5. Conclusion
> 
> After a thorough examination of the alleged execution facilities in Poland

	Thoroughly illegal, unethical, unscientific (mg/kg?) and full of
holes. 

> and their associated crematories, the only conclusion that can be arrived
> at by a rational, responsible person is the absurdity of the notion that
> any of these facilities were ever capable of, or were utilized as,
> execution gas chambers.

	You make no sense.

> About the Author
> 
> FRED A. LEUCHTER, Jr., is America's leading specialist on the design and
> fabrication of homicidal gas chambers and other equipment used in
> execution of convicted criminals. His expertise has been acknowledged by
> state governments and in periodicals such as The Atlantic (Feb. 1990), The
> New York Times (Oct. 13, 1990) and The New York Times Book Review (Nov.
> 22, 1992), as well as on the "Phil Donahue Show" (where he appeared as a
> guest). After receiving his Bachelor's degree from Boston University in
> 1964, he did postgraduate work at the Harvard Smithsonian Astrophysical
> Observatory. Leuchter holds patents for numerous highly sophisticated
> technical devices, including sextants, surveying instruments and optical
> encoding equipment.

	A sextant is a 400 year old device used to navigate by the stars.
His expertise is limited to "i once talked with a guy who saw an electric
chair". His renown is such that the Judge at the Zundel trial kicked him
out of court and called him a liar.

> In spite of intense pressure to repudiate his findings, Leuchter defiantly
> stands by his 1988 investigation of the alleged extermination gas
> chambers. As a result, powerful special interest groups have made him the
> target of a vicious campaign of slander, and have succeeded in all but
> destroying his career.

	You mean he's now an ex-unemployed plumber?


--
You will die an agonizing death, alone and peniless.
	-Jojo's psychotic alliance



From dkeren@world.std.com Sat Jul 29 01:06:14 PDT 1995
Article: 24555 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!caen!usenet.cis.ufl.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: The Liberation of the Camps
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References:  <1995Jul26.045651.24045@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 21:53:45 GMT
Lines: 19

Jamie R. McCarthy  wrote:

# Would Mr. Raven or Mr. O'Keefe care to explain why Morgen is 
# believed when he says he investigated ordinary Nazi crimes, but 
# not when he confirms the reality of the human-skin ornaments and 
# the guilt of the Kochs?

 ...or when he testifies at length about the mass murder in the 
Auschwitz cremtoriums?

Jamie, you don't really hope to get an answer from Greg "Hitler was a 
great man" Raven, now do you?

He'll just come back and post the same old article in a year or so.


-Danny Keren.




From hmazal@aol.com Sun Jul 30 23:32:55 PDT 1995
Article: 24676 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Inside the 'Gas Chambers'
Date: 28 Jul 1995 03:59:46 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3va5di$kif@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mr. Raven Spams us again:

>(absurd and ever-so-lengthy text deleted)

and then holds out his hand:

>A sumptuously illustrated edition of the sensational Leuchter Report,
with
>a hard-hitting foreword by British historian David Irving and an
>introduction by French professor Robert Faurisson, is available from the
>IHR for $23.00, postpaid.

>Send $2.00 for a packet of literature and a full listing of books, audio
>cassettes and videotapes. or, orde copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at
>the following prices: (etc.)

Things must be tough at the IHR since Mr. Carto walked with the money...




Harry W. Mazal OBE in San Antonio, Texas

E-Mail from deniers will be considered  a public message and posted in the
newsgroups at my discretion.


From hmazal@aol.com Sun Jul 30 23:32:57 PDT 1995
Article: 24678 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: Myths and facts
Date: 28 Jul 1995 03:53:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3va52f$kf1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
Reply-To: hmazal@aol.com (HMazal)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mr. Raven must be desperate for money. First he spams the board with his
inordinately long, tedious and totally ficticious posting, then he holds
his hand out for our cash:

>Send $2.00 for a packet of literature and a full listing of books. Or,
>orde copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices:

>10 copies: $2 -- 50 copies: $5
>100 copies or more: 8 cents each

Will he never learn that this is the wrong media to make sales pitches?


Harry W. Mazal OBE in San Antonio, Texas

E-Mail from deniers will be considered  a public message and posted in the
newsgroups at my discretion.


From codfish@netcom.com Sun Jul 30 23:33:06 PDT 1995
Article: 24689 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: A Few Facts about the IHR
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <3v0954$jt8@dns.enter.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:34:03 GMT
Lines: 14
Sender: codfish@netcom4.netcom.com

Yale F. Edeiken (yawen.enter.net) wrote:
: >   greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
: >  A Few Facts About the INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
: >>>>

:       There are a few facts that you seem to have omitted.  The IHR is 
: and has always been a front 
: group for the political ideas of Willis Carto, a well-known anti-semite.
: ...

You're a little behind the times.  Carto and the IHR are fighting each 
other in the courts now.

:      --Yale. F. Edeiken


From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 30 23:33:41 PDT 1995
Article: 24736 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Cremation rate of 4,400 daily at Birkenau LUDICROUS says EXPERT
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 12:33:59 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: 
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Jul 28, 1995 12.33.59
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

The following extract is just part of the testimony at the Zundel trial of 
Ivan Lagace, a funeral director and crematorium manager and operator from 
Calgary, Alberta. Lagace has disposed of more than 10,000 bodies since 1976, 
and cremated more than 1000 since 1984. He has handled victims of fire, 
accident, and disease, and has seen every stage of bodily composition.

He was accorded EXPERT status at the Zundel trial.

Lagace next explained some calculations he had made after studying the plans 
for the 46 retorts at Birkenau.(Auschwitz II)
Christie [defence counsel for Zundel] asked him how these compared to the 
plans for his own crematorium.
Well, said Lagace, When I first looked at these [Birkenau plans], I was 
amazed." The specifications were almost identical to his own retort, 
including the unusually high 45-foot stack. Based on the afterburner design, 
he added, it is obvious they were concerned with environmental effects. 
There would be no smoke and no odor."
Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece.
But, asked Christie, what about Raul Hilberg's estimate of 4,400 cremations 
per day at Birkenau?
Well," said Lagace, that's preposterous, in my eyes. It's beyond the realm 
of reality."
Christie asked if operating 24 hours a day would raise the output.
Just the opposite, insisted Lagace, it would shorten the lifespan of the 
refractory" and create costly delays.
Christie read to Lagace from Hilberg's account of a period in 1944 when 
about 10,000 Jews a day were allegedly being gassed at Birkenau, and asked 
again if the 46 retorts could have cremated 4,400 of the victims daily.
Lagace: It would be ludicrous to say something like that.

[Page 239 From the The Holocaust on Trial ,The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659 
USA.


-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is neccessary that at least 
once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.

Rene Descartes (1596-1650)                                  


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