From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec  3 06:50:07 PST 1996
Article: 83327 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence"
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 14:37:05 GMT
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 	You say Auschwitz was in Germany? Now there's a desperate
>: covenience.
>
>
>Yes it was and yes it was.
>
>After World War I the boundaries of Europe East of the Rhine
>were re-drawn. Finland, the Baltic State, Yugoslavia, Roumania,
>Poland, Czechoslovakia emrged as new countries. Some, such as
>Poland and Hungary, had existed before as more-or-less independent,
>autonomous nations over centuries earlier. Others had never existed
>before.
>
>The regions along or near the new borders were usually mixed in
>population so that the new borders were in dispute as soon as they
>had been drawn up.
>
>One case was Upper Silesia, which was finally divided into three,
>most being assigned to Germany, most of the rest to Poland and a
>small part to Czechoslovakia.
>
>Germany and Poland allied to dismember Czechoslovakia in 1938
>and the reward for Poland was that it received the Teschen region.
>
>When Nazi Germany invaded Poland in 1939, Upper Silesia was re-united
>with the annexation of the Polish parts of it, including Auschwitz.
>That is one of the reasons IG-Farben made its largest ever single
>investment in its Auschwitz plant, some 250,000,000RM.
>
>The fact that you are ignorant of all this comes
>as little surprise to anyone who has seen the
>calibre of the "research" posted by you and your
>fellow "deniers".
>
>d.A.

	Never the less Auschwitz, the Auschwitz of which we talk today,
was in Poland. Maybe 'occupied' Poland, or maybe 'incorporated'
Poland, but never the less, in Poland. All of your own dearest beloved
Holocaust literature refers to it being in Poland. It's in Poland
today. Oswiecim, Poland.

	All your historical talk that even goes back hundreds of years,
is corruption.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec  3 06:50:09 PST 1996
Article: 83330 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ADL, defenders of the Holocaust
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 15:22:53 GMT
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	            "If The Holocaust Never Happened
	          Where Are The 6,000,000 Jews of Europe?"

	               Quarter page ad by the ADL

                       N.Y.Times, Dec.1, 1996

	"The murder of 6,000,000 people simply because of their religion
was undeniably one of the lowest points in the history of mankind.

	Our concern has been to make sure the Holocaust is never
forgotten and never denied."
======================================================================

	The ad goes on to tell us about programs they have to provide
teachers with study aid packages and pictures two pamphlets,
"Dimensions, A Journal of Holocaust Studies " and "Holocaust Denial" a
"pocket guide".

	The one thing that is certain, this organization and the many
other Jewish groups are getting plenty of unrestricted access to
having their stuff put into the U.S. class room.

	This same organization along with all the rest are adamant on
keeping any opposition from challenging them. Not by the superior
procedure of meeting the demands of debate, the art of empirical
analysis that the world of humans has developed over the thousands of
years, but by intrigue, charging "racism", "neo-Nizism" and of course
"anti-Semitism".

	As to their question, ""If The Holocaust Never Happened Where Are
The 6,000,000 Jews of Europe?", the answer is obvious, if the
Holocaust never happened, then those 6,000,000 Jews of Europe never
were in the first place.

	And this is where all the evidence leads. This is what people
would come to recognize if we didn't have the likes of the ADL, "the
largest and most respected civil rights" group in the nation, working
hard to keep it from being open to free discussion.

	The ad states the ADL is "dedicated and committed to the
protection of our traditional American values of pluralism and
tolerance". This would include their personal analysis of what would
constitute the right of free speech. 

'Dear ADL,
	There seems to be a growing number of people and researchers who
have serious doubts about the validity of "Holocaust" accounts. Do you
believe they have a right to openly air these views in our society.
Since you are so active in having it made a part of the required
curriculum of our education system, would you support the inclusion of
what those who have their doubts? I notice you say you are out to
"secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike".

											Yours Truly,
                                                      Alt.revisionsim'

	[The ADL views can be found on "www.adl.org"]


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec  3 06:50:09 PST 1996
Article: 83418 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HateWatch - Monitoring Hate Groups on the Internet
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 16:19:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Matt Giwer has several times declared his intention to stifle all
>discussion on alt.revisionism, by making the newsgroup unreadable,
>until such time as all contrary opinion has been driven off. His most
>recent of several attempts has quite predictably failed but not
>without a premature declaration of victory. He has yet to define what
>he considers a legitimate discussion which would be immune to his
>censorship attempts except to say that the newsgroup is about "doing"
>revisionism and being "offensive" and "in your face."

>All in all, Giwer appears to be no more than a lonely, frustrated man
>with a modem and time on his hands.

	You know Morris, you may be on to something here.


>--
> John Morris                                
> at University of Alberta  
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec  3 06:50:10 PST 1996
Article: 83496 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Fear of Air Photo Evidence?
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:30:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>In article <32a2f14b.3173291@news.gte.net>, Leprechan  wrote:
>>On 1 Dec 1996 08:18:11 GMT, brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu (Brian Harmon) wrote:
>[snip]
>
>>>In fact, the Aug 25 footage _does_ show a large column of 
>>>prisoners near the railway being marched in the direction of 
>>>Krema II.  Ball, in his ever predictable fashion, insists
>>>that these photos must have been doctored by some anonymous
>>>person.
>>
>>	Although Ball has a tendency to overstate his position, he does
>>clearly show by considering the time between the two pictures that if
>>it is people, they are moving at a healthy jog, not walking or
>>marching.  
>
>So what? Eyewitness accounts mentioned that prisoners were often
>forced to run.  Why is it unusual that such an event would
>be captured on film?
>
>>	Beyond that, if you look on page 40, you will plainly see the
>>Kremas at the top of the picture and that "column of prisoners" headed
>>towards the bottom of the picture, that is, AWAY from the Kremas.  


Harmon:
>Matt, there are _four_ columns of prisoners in that 
>photo.  Two of which are standing in formation, and the 
>other two are marching.  
>
>I notice you don't mention which column. why is that?

	Actually there are more like 6 columns, the three that are broken
up into three inky black blocks, three of which are standing on the
roof of a building, two smaller columns for "disinfection", and the
one one that is identified as moving.

     Since it appears you have the book before you, your question, "I
notice you don't mention which column. why is that?" is dishonest,
since the one supposed to be on the move is identified and discussed
in the book.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec  3 15:26:37 PST 1996
Article: 83561 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Air Photo Evidence ?
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:28:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>  
>>  	Why wouldn't the prosecution have gone out and done the common
>>  recognized practice of obtaining photographic evidence for their
>>  position at the Holocaust trials? 
>
>	You are, once more, woefully ignorant of what was presented at the 
>Nuremberg trials.  There were, in fact, photogarphs and movies of Auschwitz 
>presented as evidence.
>
>>  	Air photo evidence, or any other kind of photographic evidence?
>>  None?
>
>	It was there.  Descriptions of the movies and the reaction to them can 
>be found in Taylor, "The Anatomy of the Nurmberg Trials" (pages 316-8 -- first 
>paperback edition 1992)

	Don't you think it's ridiculous for you to cite there were movies
by citing they are mentioned in some book. Haven't you tried this a
number of times in the past? You should have at least given a summary
of what it had to say. We don't know if the tribunal was looking at
"extermination camp" footage, or footage from Bergen-Belsen, which I
know there was some taken there. We're talking "extermination" camps,
the documentation of intentional mass extermination. And why doesn't
the ardent and adamant Holocaust promotional network use them or refer
to them in their extensive sales campaign? 


>>  	Failure to obtain and present physical evidence means something.
>
>	Yes.  It means that, once more, you do not know what you are talking 
>about.  It must be a very common feeling for you.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec  4 05:22:50 PST 1996
Article: 83638 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Atlas / Holocaust propaganda / medical field
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 15:49:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 61
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	Evidently there was an article in the N.Y.Times that I missed,
"Doctors Question Use of Nazi's Medical Atlas". Seems there is a
illustrated anatomical atlas that was created by Dr.Eduard Pernkopf
sometime around the time of WWII, and is held in high esteem for it's
value to medical students and the field in general.

	As to the "Doctors Question ..." they are identified as a
Dr.Howard A. Israel and Dr.William E. Seidelman, of course.

	The letters are posted under the bold heading "Don't Censor
Atlas, However Odious its Origin". Evidently the original article
claimed, through the notions of the two doctors, that the illustrated
atlas was created from the study of Holocaust victims.

	Under a bold heading, "Throw Away Evil Atlas" a doctor Michael J.
Franzblau says it would be "futile to create a commission to
investigate the allegations that Dr. Eduard Pernkopf used victims of
SS executions and others murdered in the Holocaust as subjects for his
atlas".

	He relates that the subject had been submitted to University of
Vienna Medical School in 1994, and "to date, there has been no
meaningful response", "meaningful" to mean they didn't cave in to the
intrigue. He claims it would all be a waste of time anyway,
"Investigations and commissions are a waste of time". Evidently he
thinks all that is necessary is to propose the allegation and
defamation and this should suffice, "This anatomical atlas by a
committed Nazi, Dr. Pernkopf, is evil. The creator was evil, and it
should have no place in any medical library. I suggest that it be
tossed into the waste bin of time".
	He ends up telling us their are now better alternatives, and no
lose would come from it being disposed of.

	The other letter, that carries no bold headline accommodation was
by Kathryn A.Yaros, who starts off "Censorship may be a unworthy
byproduct of Dr. Howard A.Israel's laudable quest for human identity
behind Dr. Pernkopf's anatomy illustrations ..."

	Ms. Yaros goes on to say the atlas is one of many, and that this
one is "...is an opportunity for any health practitioner to study the
duality of human nature and especially for young doctors in medical
schools ..."

	She suggests "Lets place a memorial page in the front of the
atlas, even if there is no conclusive proof that the subjects were
Nazi victims ..."

	"But let's neither censor nor limit distribution, as Dr.Israel
suggests. The victim, then, would be our democracy".
========================================================================

	What this shows is to what extremes Jews will go to in order to
propagandize against their enemies and to air the Holocaust lie, and,
to what degree they get their stuff into our major medias.

	It also domonstrates how readily defamations will be leveled
against persons. With no proof, Dr. Israel and fellow thinkers would
have the world deem a persons life time work as evil in order to
perpetuate their own little cause.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec  4 12:45:29 PST 1996
Article: 83700 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.malaysia,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.singapore,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.hongkong
Subject: Re: Gross-Wiener removed
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 15:30:09 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.malaysia:46235 soc.culture.canada:102813 soc.culture.singapore:66293 alt.revisionism:83700 soc.culture.hongkong:95832

>
>Unfortunately, it is probably only a matter of time before we meet him
>again, when he has found a new service provider. If you hear anything
>from this most unsavoury character, I suggest forwarding his mail to the
>postmaster of his new ISP.
>
>Small victories count, too.
>
>Bjorn

	Personally I don't know what this person has been up to, but
don't you think you should just clobber him with dialogue?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec  4 16:24:32 PST 1996
Article: 98723 of can.general
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: can.general
Subject: Re: Nine Questions "Grosvenor" won't answer (Month 8)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:37:27 GMT
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	After a few weeks of absence, and a little discussion about
"Where is McVay" and amid the latest topics, "McVay" is here with his
monthly "Nine Questions ...". Is this really McVay who has posted
here?


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec  6 04:16:46 PST 1996
Article: 84020 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another let down for the $$$$$
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 16:05:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	For the last year or so Jewish organizations have been swarming
all over Europe trying to shake down governments for Holocaust $$$$$.

	The most notorious claims have been against the Swiss banks, that
they still hold billion$ in gold and money that belonged to Jews. The
Swiss have already done an audit which turned up maybe a few million,
and has been paid out. This audit was cited again a couple of weeks
ago to which the "World Jewish Congress" said the findings were
"pathetic".

	In the last couple of days Hungary has settled the barrage
directed against them. The Jewish claims were that confiscated
properties are worth $40,000,000,000. The Hungarian government offered
to pay any Jewish "survivors" in Hungary $30 a month making it clear
that no alleged 40 billion in property will be turned over to the
Jews. The "World Jewish Congress" was "infuriated" but nevertheless,
took what they could.

	Now another let down. 

	       "Finding on Postwar Swiss Accounts Issued"
                  L.A.Times, Dec. 3, 1996

	"Money from Swiss bank accounts belonging to Polish Jews who died
in the Holocaust was not paid as compensation to Swiss citizens whose
assets were seized by the Communists after WWII, the Polish Press
Agency said. It quoted the Warsaw Foreign Ministry as saying a special
cross-ministry committee reached that initial finding after probing
1949 agreements between Warsaw and Switzerland. Switzerland stands
accused by U.S. Sen. Alfonso M. D'Amato of agreeing to give money to
Poland from unclaimed bank accounts of Polish citizens as part of an
accord on compensating Swiss nationals whose assets were seized in
Communist Poland."

	Of course D'Amato may be the super mole in our system for Jewish
causes, and he may be the only congressman out in the front trying to
get the gold and money, but it isn't him in the back ground, or who
was the originator of the global extortion scheme. But now that the
let downs are coming in, the press is singling him out. This is what
happens when you play the lackey and it fails, you become the
scapegoat and the real parties go unidentified. 

	Seems the whole extortion scheme is coming to a rapid end. The
only thing that will be left is another ugly chapter for the Holocaust
non-reality.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec  6 04:16:47 PST 1996
Article: 84022 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil "Spooky" German Genes
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 17:32:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	I wonder what kind of genes are manifesting in Mr.Schneider when
he writes on the one hand, "But this distinction is no honor. Almost
all the images and stories on television draw on those 12 years when
Germans perpetrated a crime the monstrous uniqueness of which only
idiots question", and then goes on to criticize German officials for
their attitude on Scientologists without finding any complaint about
the German policy that makes doubting Holocaust accounts a crime.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec  6 17:44:42 PST 1996
Article: 84181 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Potato menorah
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:28:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                            The Los Angeles Times

               The Worlds foremost Holocaust promotional paper.

		   Working hard for the interests of the American people.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec  7 09:54:54 PST 1996
Article: 84191 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVay: Who, what, how - why - and where?
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:49:49 GMT
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	Who is there at Nizkor filing in for McVay and using his sign?

	What is going on?

	How did it all come about?

	Why?

	And where is the real McVay?

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec  7 09:54:55 PST 1996
Article: 84239 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The giwer Throws Another Tantrum
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 15:24:09 GMT
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References: <32923f8d.37412658@news.gte.net> <579tnb$cof@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <57b32f$fme$8@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <32a16bcd.120342526@news.uniserve.com> <581g8t$5og@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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>In article <32a16bcd.120342526@news.uniserve.com>, 
>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>
>   "Chalk up another failure for the Giwer-troll, eh?!  
>   Gee, what number do you reckon this one is, Gord?  I 
>   stopped counting at 11,163.  Gotta hand it to him though, 
>   he does excel at failure - and is very consistent to boot!!"
>
>Ms. Ostrov has finally found something at which this besotted
>loser excels! No longer must he be referred to as a besotted
>loser... from now on, we can refer to him as a _professional_
>besotted loser.

	Hilary, is that you? What have you done with McVay?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec  7 09:54:56 PST 1996
Article: 84267 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: edm.general,can.general,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Gauleiter Gross Wants to be Freenet Fuehrer,or Goebbels
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 14:58:53 GMT
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>(Willy the Grossvendor prattleth)
>
>>If you feel that CENSHORSHIP should not be tolerated, then contact
>>postmaster@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca, as well as the Auditor General of
>>Canada, the Edmonton Journal,and other Canadian media.
>
>Postmaster, Edmonton FreeNet:
>
>Congratulations on your strong demonstration regarding adherance
>to EFN's Terms of Service. Mr. Grosvenor showed little interest in
>obeying the terms he accepted as a freenet user, and your patience
>was commendible. In the end, however, ISPs have no other option
>than enforcement of their terms. The alternative is chaos.
>
>Kenneth McVay
>The Nizkor Project

	Hilary, is that you? What have you done with McVay?

	Anyway, Nizkor boasts it's for freedom of speech and yet here we
have applause for someone getting thrown off some service.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec  7 09:54:57 PST 1996
Article: 84272 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irish Potato Famine
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 16:12:24 GMT
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>	
>	"Irish Potato Famine Is a Fit Subject for Schools"
>                   Letter to the Editor

>	The bill's sponsor, Assemblyman Joseph Crowley, has noted that
>the bill would not have passed without support from Jewish
>legislators.

	How is it that the conditions of Irish history in the N.J. school
system is contingent on support from Jews?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec  7 15:47:14 PST 1996
Article: 84330 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irish Potato Famine
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 15:49:29 GMT
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>	
>	"Irish Potato Famine Is a Fit Subject for Schools"
>                   Letter to the Editor

>	The famine was not a 'natural disaster'. Beginning in 1494 ...
>	Contrary to those lawmakers who see this law as 'ethnic
>pandering' this is a fit subject for history courses in schools."
>
>                                                   James Mullin

	"Ethnic pandering". Now there's a fitting term.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec  7 17:12:56 PST 1996
Article: 84337 of alt.revisionism
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961206: Hate Laws in Argentina
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 14:58:20 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:84337 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3173


	We can bet there is a lot of huff and puff, foot stompin, self
righteous, out raged indignation being expressed in Washington, D.C.,
at this time, perhaps daily, demanding that any doubts about the
Holocaust be made a crime.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  8 07:16:39 PST 1996
Article: 84437 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Value of photographic evidence
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 14:57:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Over the years, Moran has been busted for various traffic/parking
violations. 

	One time, a number of years ago, he was cited for failing to keep
right while driving a truck across one the bridges from Manhattan to
Brooklyn. Just before the beginning of the bridge a series of signs
give ample warning for "All Trucks Must Keep Right". All across the
bridge the signs were repeated every 100 feet or so. Trucks were lined
up in the one lane across the whole span. Moran was the only one
barreling along past the other trucks, free as the wind when he got
pulled over. 

	Over the next couple of days Moran connived for a way to beat the
rap. Then Moran figured it out. Moran filed the proper notice to the
courts that he was going to plead Not Guilty.

	A few days later, Moran drove back to the bridge in his car with
a camera. Moran made sure he went there in the morning when truck
traffic was heavy, and took a couple of photos of the trucks lined up
bumper to bumper.

	A couple of weeks down the road Moran appeared at the specified
court to present his case. 

	Moran showed His Honor the photographs and how the trucks totally
block out any view of the signs. His Honor ruled Not Guilty.

=======================================================================

	On another occasion Moran was cited for failure to take a right
>from  a right turn only lane. As the situation was, Moran did fail to
take the right turn only, and just as he was passing through he was
directed over by a cop. Actually there were about 5 cops, 3 cop cars
and 2 or 3 drivers pulled over in the area that had at one time been a
merge lane. Moran knew right away he could beat the rap. Too many
people were being pulled over which implies improper marking.

	Moran made the required arrangements for a Not Guilty plea. Moran
then went back to the scene of the crime where he parked in a dirt
pull over area and climbed up the side of a low hill. From there he
took a series of photos catching 8 or 9 shots of people going through
the right hand turn only lane without turning right. 

	The day Moran showed up for the hearing, the cop was there also.
He was going to make a fight of it. This is commendable. Too many
citing officers won't show up to back up a ticket, because it's a
hassle. 

	When the case was called, Moran and the cop stepped up to the
table before the bench. Moran the defendant had the first choice to
speak his case. Moran presented the photographic exhibits to His Honor
and His Honor checked them out. Moran claimed the situation at the
location of the infringement was ill or under marked and this is why
so many people just drive through. His Honor and Moran had a few more
words of discussion. Moran mentioned the three lanes on the highway
were all marked "45" mph just before the intersecction which gave the
allusion they were all equal in status. 

	And then it was the officer's turn. He started off "Well your
honor, I can see your going to go with the defendant on this but ..."
After the officer ran through his opinion, Moran politely ask him a
few questions, one of them about any solid white line that would
designate a right turn only. The officer said it started quite a ways
>from  the intersection, maybe a hundred feet or more. Moran referred
His Honor to one of the photos that showed the line to be only about
15 feet long. 

	The officer was right, His Honor went with Moran.

=======================================================================


	Then on another occasion Moran had pulled into a handicap parking
slot. Moran got a ticket.

	Moran pondered at times over the next couple of days of how he
was going to beat the rap. A parking violation for a handicap space
carries a $330 fine.

	There about the same time, Moran pulled into a large parking lot
where he noticed a whole long line of handicap spaces, each one having
it's own upright sign designating it Handicap. Since there were about
10 spaces, and each one having it's one sign, Moran realized there
must be a specified code for properly marking a handicap space. Later
that day Moran made a phone call and a few minutes later a call came
back with the scoop. 

	Moran made all the specified arrangements for pleading Not
Guilty. He then went back to the scene of the violation. As Moran
pulled into the lot and took a right up the row that leads to the
handicap space, he noticed two large handicap parking only logos on
the ground. As he proceeded ahead he observed his hood progressively
blocking out the logo on the ground to the first handicap space.

	Moran parked his car, in a legitimate space of course, and then
checked out the conditions of the violated space as to it's compliance
with code. As the code has it, each and every handicap parking space
is to have an upright sign, the large logo on the ground and the curbs
painted blue. Moran took some photos. Neither spot had curbs painted
blue, and only one had an upright sign, it not being the one for which
Moran was cited. The only compliance between the two spots was that
they both had the logos on the ground. 

	Moran got back in his car and drove out and back in again so he
could get shots of his hood coming to block out the logo on the
ground.  Moran figured you can buy a fair toy with $330 and he wanted
to solidify his case.

	Moran submitted a photographic package by mail to the designated
determining agency. Moran was hoping to have it heard in a court so he
could play out the drama, but Malibu has it's own procedure. 

	Anyway Moran eventually received the notice of dismissal.

=========================================================================

	Most recently, Moran was given a ticket for going through a Stop
sign on the grounds of a VA Hospital. 

	Right away Moran began to figure a way out of this one. The stop
sign is located in a weird set up. A main road that passes before the
entrance of the hospital intersects with another that meets the main
road perpendicular. The main road meets the incoming road with a stop
sign. But just before this there is a little right turn that is for
accessing and merging onto the other road, and right where they join
there is the stop sign, The stop sign. Thus when you approach the
situation there are two stop signs. One for the straight option and
one for the right turn option. The one for the right turn option is
off set from the approaching road and does not stand out. So on this
aspect Moran focused his attention for his defense.

	This was Moran's first Federal rap, the violation having happened
on VA property. Moran was excited about the prospects of beating it.

	After Moran had taken care of business at the facility he
retraced the course of events. As he approached the intersection he
noticed not only was the stop sign in question very obscure but at
times it would be cut off from view by some poles off the road. As he
got closer, he noticed that his mirror would come to progressively
block out view of the sign, right up til the time he was at the sign
itself. By this time Moran noticed that now the sign was totally out
of sight above his wind shield with only its pole visible. Moran was
ecstatic. His first Federal rap and he was going to beat it.

	A few days later Moran made the required arrangements for
pleading the usual Not Guilty. A couple of days after that Moran
returned to the scene to take the necessary photos that would sew the
case up in his favor.

	While taking one of the photos from outside the car of the
general intersection, a VA cop came up and informed Moran no photos
were allowed to be taken on VA grounds. Moran told him what he was up
to. The cop took the position of prosecution and said Moran's pleading
Not Guilty wouldn't work. Moran told him that it would be up to the
judge to determine that but added that the sign in question was kind
of high. The VA cop said all the signs were set to specified height.
Moran's eyes bulged at the revelation. Not bothering to dispute the
officer Moran told him it was no matter, it was going to be in the
judges hands.

	As soon as Moran got done taking the necessary photos he drove
around and took a look at various stop signs, having recognized the
technical angle he could exploit that the VA officer unwittingly
unleashed. Moran noticed right away that the stop signs on the grounds
of the facility were like Mutt and Jeff. The one Moran got a ticket
for was 112 inches high and various others on the grounds measured
>from  88 inches to 108 inches. 

	Anyway the day of the hearing Moran was ready with the
photographic evidence and prepared to argue the technical angle. As it
turned out all Moran had to do is present his evidence to the
prosecution attorney who was doing preliminary interviews in the
hallway. Moran just introduced the photos, knowing they were
sufficient and the technical angle would just look like scheming. The
attorney nodded as he looked through the photos and by the time he got
to the last one his head was nodding even more and he announced he was
going to recommend the charge be dismissed.

	Ah yes, good old photographic evidence. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  8 08:37:36 PST 1996
Article: 84439 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Potato menorah
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 14:58:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <32ac8612.882150@199.0.216.204>
References: <32b036ad.2984844@199.0.216.204> <32b556ab.11174381@199.0.216.204> <58aan3$v6k@news.ccit.arizona.edu>
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>:                             The Los Angeles Times
>
>:                The Worlds foremost Holocaust promotional paper.
>
>: 		   Working hard for the interests of the American people.
>
>Interesting.  By what rationale do you conclude the LA Times to be more
>"foremost" in its Holocaust promotion than the NY Times?
>
>Just wondering if there is any logic behind your rants, zeyde.

	They might to be too close to call. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec  9 05:19:24 PST 1996
Article: 84553 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Irish Potato Famine
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 15:35:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	"Irish Potato Famine Is a Fit Subject for Schools"
                   Letter to the Editor
                  N.Y.Times, Dec.7, 1996

	"A Dec. 1 news article on the New York State law mandating the
teaching in schools of the Irish potato famine quotes John Kerr, the
British Ambassador, as saying, apparently in response to a statement
by Gov. George E. Pataki when he signed the bill, that it seemed
'insulting to the many millions who suffered and died in concentration
camps across Europe to imply that their man-made fate was in any way
analogous to the natural disaster in Ireland.
	The bill's sponsor, Assemblyman Joseph Crowley, has noted that
the bill would not have passed without support from Jewish
legislators.
	The famine was not a 'natural disaster'. Beginning in 1494 ...
	Contrary to those lawmakers who see this law as 'ethnic
pandering' this is a fit subject for history courses in schools."

                                                   James Mullin

                                                New Jersey Irish

                                                Famine Curriculum

                                                Committee

	Poor Poor Patties of today. They had some of their relatives die
hundreds of years ago. They might not, probably don't have any idea of
who they were, maybe not even knowing their names, but nevertheless,
acting like Jews, pining over some history.

	"Ethnic pandering". Now there's a righteous discription of this
and the Holocaust curriculum requirement.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec  9 08:05:59 PST 1996
Article: 84634 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka mass graves
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:51:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <32b033ef.1222136@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># When looking at the 1944 photograph of Treblinka, keep in mind
># there is Holocaust accounting that has the camp as being over-run
># by the Soviets while it was still in full operation.
>
>Tommy, according to all sources I have seen, the camp was
>partially destroyed in the August 1943 sonderkommando rebellion,
>and later that year dismantled by the SS. This was long before
>the Soviets liberated the area.
>
>Perhaps you're confusing Treblinka and Maidanek?

	Nope. The testimonial evidence for the Holocaust has it Treblinka
was over run while it was still in full bloom. Nizkor files/Old Frogs
Almanac.

	When you say "all" sources you have read, which ones are they?
And, how many? One or two?

	Treblinka never was a "camp" of any kind. 

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 10 05:43:06 PST 1996
Article: 84779 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 17:21:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Even though the 1944 photograph shows Treblinka to be nothing
># more than a clearing, agriculture, some trees and three or four
># buildings, 
>
>Could this have anything to do with the fact that the camp was
>partially destroyed in the sonderkommando rebellion, and then 
>dismantled (in 1943)?

	No. There was no rebellion. There were no buildings. There are no
signs of there ever being any buildings, other than what is shown in
the 1944 photo.


>What about the huge amounts of human remains and ashes in the camp?
>
># Holocaust accounting has it the camp was over-run by the
># Soviets while it was still in full operation.
>
>You're either hallucinating, or confusing it with
>Maidanek. Treblinka was dismantled long before the Soviets
>occupied the area.

	Nizkor files/Old Frogs Almanac:

	Nizkor "treblinka .02" quotes from the "Old Frogs
Almanac" - "When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the
nearly dead survivors ... there was no lack of physical evidence".
Notice under other clickables where it is said "The suffocated bodies
in recently arrived cattle cars ..." were there also.

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 10 08:58:54 PST 1996
Article: 38401 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:29:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <32b52bdd.64691104@199.0.216.204>
References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>  
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>In article , civil@anet-stl.com
>(Parker Beatley) wrote:
>
>> Guess what? The Jews in Israel? They hate immigrants, too. Read on....
>> 
>
>And this has what to do with Holocaust revisionism?

	Poor Sara. She doesn't have anything to say about the post except
what she has said. She doesn't even dispute it. 
	Israel is the product of the Holocaust story. The Jews are
constantly crying how they are the victims when in fact they create
more victims than any other.

 
>Sara
>posted/e-mailed
>
>-- 
>"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the
>Christian religion."
>       George Washington, 1796

	Israel is a Jewish state. Jewish aside from being a racist
movement, is a religious group. Therefore U.S. aid to Israel is in
defiance of any "separation of church and state". But Sara doesn't see
it that way. She's just ethnocentrically insane and can't see it.
She's deranged. She's Jewish, Jewish and nothing but Jewish. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:05 PST 1996
Article: 84935 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:03:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 4
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>Guess what? The Jews in Israel? They hate immigrants, too. Read on....

	From reading their material for over 15 years it is my opinion
that Jews in general just hate others, in general.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:06 PST 1996
Article: 84936 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 23:02:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <32b8f73b.29851078@199.0.216.204>
References: <585jul$1f8e$6@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <585jul$1f8e$6@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <588ja4$atj@juliana.sprynet.com> <58cjgg$olg$7@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <58crlh$spd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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>In article <58cjgg$olg$7@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, 
>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) asks of Mr. Blackmore/Bellinger
>
>> Explain to me why "experts" such as David Irving and Robert Faurisson 
>> have accepted the recording as genuine?
>
>As Mr. Blackmore/Bellinger has shown himself to be a strong
>supporter of Mr. Irving, and his veracity, he would seem to have
>hoisted himself to rather dismal heights with this business of the
>Himmler tape.. I predict he will fail to notice the question; he
>certainly can't answer it, having damned himself by doing the
>giwer as regards the tape... unless, of course, he concludes that,
>contrary to previous belief, he now sees Irving exposed as liar
>and charlatan?
>
>Speaking of Irving, his recent lawsuit against a British Jewish
>organization was summarily thrown out of court. The organization
>was granted costs. That's another libel suit Mr. Irving lost. 
>(May there be many more.)
>
>Tough, eh, Gordie?

	Hilary, is that you? What have yu done with McVay?

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:07 PST 1996
Article: 84937 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 16:58:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Eye witness testimony has it that at another camp there were
rooms off a corridor with large doors on the opposite side of each
room for unloading the bodies after being gassed, and another camp
having it the floors tilted up so the bodies would slide out. Compared
to the crematoriums at Auschwitz these would be high tech, state of
the art, cutting edge designs, so how the Germans came up with the
design for Cremas II and III is wonder.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:07 PST 1996
Article: 84938 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Schwarzhuber Testifies About Ravensbrueck
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 15:53:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Johann Schwarzhuber testifies about gassing
>in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp
>[Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
>Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
>A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 187]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>At the end of February 1945 I was called with Dr. Trommer to the
>office of the camp commandant, Sturmbannfuehrer Suhren. Suhren
>informed us that he had received an order from Reichsfuehrer Himmler
>to liquidate all the women who were sick or unable to walk. Before
>giving us this information, he asked us how many sick women there 
>were in the camp. I explained to the commandant that I had been glad to
>leave Auschwitz and would not like to repeat that experience. He then 
>told me that Sturmbannfuehrer Sauer, deputy to the camp commandant, had 
>been put in charge of the execution.

	Sure, he was called into the office and the commodant told him
Himmler sent him orders. This witness also says he filed his complaint
when other testimony offered by Mr.Keren has it no one dared complain.


>
> .
> .
> .
>
	Some of Mr.Keren's oft deleted testimony.

>I witnessed a gassing. A hundred and fifty women, all at once, were
>pushed into the gas chamber. Hauptscharfuehrer Moll ordered the women
>to undress and told them that a delousing was going to take place. They 
>were then pushed into the chamber, and the door was bolted. A male 
>prisoner, wearing a gas mask, climbed up onto the roof and, through 
>an opening which he closed again immediately afterward, threw a can of 
>gas into the room. I heard groans and moans. After two or three minutes, 
>there was silence in the chamber.
>
	Here is an example of what the usual testimony has. The witness
said he saw "a" gassing. Its always "one time" or "once" and here it
is "a" gassing.

	AT other camps it was SS cadre that introduced the pellet gas and
here it was a prisoner. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:08 PST 1996
Article: 84939 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 17:43:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Identifying the buildings Crema II and III as facilities for mass
extermination and disposal could be likened to pointing at the Taj
Mahal and declaring it was a bowling alley. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:09 PST 1996
Article: 84940 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 08:27:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
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>Brian Smith (kurtstel@micron.net) tries that Old National Alliance
>Two-Step one more time:
>
>> The defense can challenge foundation otherwise anyone can produce a
>> any tape saying anything and have it admitted without the need for any
>> testing whatsoever.   Revisionists challenge the tape and it would not
>> be permitted without authentication.  
>
>Poor Mr. Smith... his "revisionist" heros _don't_ challenge the
>tape... what _is_ a poor Nazi to do? (Perhaps his puppeteers at
>the National Alliance can do the White Folks Polka and come
>up with better material - it will be humiliating if Smith ever
>figures out how stupid Pierce is making him appear.)
>
>David Irving does not challenge the tape.
>Friedrich Berg does not challenge the tape.
>Greg Raven does not challenge the tape (he simply denies it has
>           anything to do with the "final solution")
>
>Poor Mr. Smith.... even his giwer isn't working.
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron

	Hilary, is that you? What have you done with McVay?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:10 PST 1996
Article: 84941 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Information on the Trial of Nuremberg
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 08:25:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
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References: <32ACAC46.29C9@rotan.eur.nl> <58h9h4$jg0@news.enter.net>
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>>   "D. W. Kuilman"  writes:
>>  We're a High School form the Netherlands and we're looking for any information 
>about the 
>>  war criminals Seyss-Inquart, Goebbels, Goerring and Jodl, because we're going to 
>replay 
>>  the trials of Nuremberg for the subject History. If you have any information, please 
>be 
>>  so kind and send it to use. Maybe we can use it.
>>  Greetings,
>>  Linda Hazeveld
>>  the Erasmus College, Zoetermeer, the Netherlands, Europe
>>  
>>>>>
>	Assuming that the complete record of the IMT is not available to you, I 
>suggest you check out the Nizkor site, http://www.nizkor.org.  The first volume of 
>the record and some other material is already on line.  You might also try Telford 
>Taylor's "The Anatomy of the Nuremberg Trials" which is still in print.  Taylor was 
>one of the prosecutors at the trials and highly regarded as an attorney after the trials. 
> His book will give you a good idea of the "flavor" of the trials rather than just a 
>recounting of what happened.
>
>	--YFE

	I would suggest you look into other sources of commentary on the
Nuremberg Trials while your at it. The one by Taylor is one that is
most often cited by those who are so adamant on perpetuating the
Holocaust story.

	Of course the best source would be the trial transcripts
themselves. Mr.Edeiken might find it better to seek out the '"flavor"'
of the trials, whatever that means, but I would suggest you seek out
the essence. Was any evidence sound? Was the defense sufficient? Were
the findings fair?

	I would also suggest you have some information of what was
introduced at the trials as fact and evidence at the time and is no
longer held to be correct today. The biggest whopper was that 4
million died at Auschwitz-Birkenau, which is currently around 1
million. With a gigantic miscalculation like that one we should be
ready to look at other 'details'.
                                               Tom Moran 
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:10 PST 1996
Article: 84942 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Worthless Photo Evidence
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:32:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	The following list of Nizkor URLs for accessing photographs
submitted to alt.revisionism by Mr.Keren. A short description of most
of the photos and comments has been added.

>[fascinating stories deleted]
>
># Ah yes, good old photographic evidence.
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/dachau/images

Post war photos of Typhus victims having nothing to do with any
"exterminations".

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/natzweiler/images

Body parts diplayed. Who, what - not captioned.

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/nordhausen/images

Long mass grave with one layer of bodies. Uncaptioned with any details
as to who took the photo, or what it is supposed to have been from. 

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/ohrdruf/images

Bodies layed out among ruins. Uncaptioned as to any details, who what
and how. Could be any where. Could be Germans.

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/thekla/images

.01 Two prisoners standing over two charred bodies. Who took the
photo, who are the victims? Not captioned.
.02 Three bodies along a three foot barbed wire fence. Who, how, not
captioned.
.03 Three grotesque badly burned bodies. Who, how, not captioned.

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/maidanek/images

Righteous pile of what could be all bodies. Who, how, not captioned.
Under "Majdanek" ".01, .02, .03, "gas chambers" no image available
when clicked on.

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/

Building with wall or something in foreground with a few body remains.
Who, how, not captioned. (I believe it was captioned at one time as a
crmeatorium at Majdanek.)

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/images
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/w/wetzel.erhard/images/
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rascher.sigmund/

>-Danny Keren.

	None of the photos are captioned as to who or how. No caption
remark on who took or submitted any of the photos. Just photos.

	The presentation of these photos is corrupt. The presenters
intentionaly omit all of the above to leave it up to the viewer to
accept the photos as proof of the Holocaust. As far as any one would
know, some of the photos could be of German soldiers.

	I would suspect that some of the photos may have been submitted
by the Russians

	Presentation or referral to the photos as evidence for the
Holocaust story is corrupt.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:11 PST 1996
Article: 84956 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Information on the Trial of Nuremberg
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 17:36:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <32bb4dfe.7893271@199.0.216.204>
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>We're a High School form the Netherlands and we're looking for any information about the 
>war criminals Seyss-Inquart, Goebbels, Goerring and Jodl, because we're going to replay 
>the trials of Nuremberg for the subject History. If you have any information, please be 
>so kind and send it to use. Maybe we can use it.
>Greetings,
>Linda Hazeveld
>the Erasmus College, Zoetermeer, the Netherlands, Europe
	
	I would recommend you take note of the procedure and see if it
fits in with legal procedures in the Netherlands, which I would
suppose carries a high ideal.

	Maybe you could consider the events where the Soviets insisted on
introducing the slaughter at Katyn Forest which they themselves
committed and recently confessed to, and the Allies, having the
conviction the massacre was committed by the Soviets, sat back and let
it happen.

	As to information on Goebbels, maybe you could look into the book
by David Irving with the title of "Goebbels".
                                                    Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:12 PST 1996
Article: 85021 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 17:09:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Then we have the circumstances of Cremas IV and V being built in
yet another way.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 11 06:35:13 PST 1996
Article: 85029 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Klein Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 15:44:59 GMT
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>Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Fritz Klein 
>[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge and
>Company, 1949.p. 717]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>When transports arrived at Auschwitz it was the doctor's job to pick
>out those who were unfit or unable to work. These included children, 
>old people and the sick.


> I have seen the gas chambers and crematoria 
>at Auschwitz, and I knew that those I selected were to go to the gas
>chamber. But I only acted on orders given to me by Dr. Wirtz.

	"I have seen the gas chambers ..."? Does his testimony have any
discription of these gas chambers? Mr.Keren?
> .
> .
> .
>
>I never protested against people being sent to the gas chambers, 
>although I never agreed. One cannot protest when in the army.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 05:22:54 PST 1996
Article: 85137 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 18:30:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <32b0fd8b.20459617@199.0.216.204>
References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>  <32bd356b.67137079@199.0.216.204> <32AE058F.246D@columbia.edu>
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>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> >Guess what? The Jews in Israel? They hate immigrants, too. Read on....
>> 
>>         From reading their material for over 15 years it is my opinion
>> that Jews in general just hate others, in general.
>
>
>Ok, now tell me that THAT is not antisemitism.
>
>Avital Pilpel.

	It's up to you to say it is. After you announce it you can prove
it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 05:22:55 PST 1996
Article: 85204 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka mass graves
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:04:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Nope. The testimonial evidence for the Holocaust has it
># Treblinka was over run while it was still in full bloom.
># Nizkor files/Old Frogs Almanac.
>
>Where? Which files? What is the original source quoted in
>these files? You have to be more specific. There are many
>files in the site you mention.
>
># Treblinka never was a "camp" of any kind.
>
>Tommy, you can't just say such things and expect to be
>taken seriously by any rational person, more so as you
>offer no support whatsoever for your claim.
>
>When you were a five-year-old, you could just say things,
>and that would be ok; that's what five-year-olds do. But
>you're now sixty-years-old, right? You have to try and
>justify your claims.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	Now we have Mr.Keren doubting eyewitness accounts for the
Holocaust. It is obvious he finds it disturbing, which is interesting.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 05:22:56 PST 1996
Article: 85205 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:08:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	As to the general architectural design of the building, it has an
aesthetic appeal. Made of stone, with tile roof, dormers and -
windows. Windows galore. Large double windows, running the full length
of the building. All this giving the crematoriums the appearance they
could be union halls, or mess halls, class rooms or whatever.

     What with having to stack bodies inside by the hundreds,
thousands, having windows running the full length doesn't seem to fit
in with what we are told was a place especially designed and built for
mass extermination and disposal. We can only picture the bodies being
stacked inside so that they either are stacked high directly in front
of each window, which is hard to fathom, or they are stacked to the
sill wherever there were windows and more are stacked higher in
between. With the second option we could picture the scene to look
like a sawtooth sequence of pyramided bodies.

	The fact the buildings had all these windows sorely stresses the
claim they were designed for the stealth extermination of thousands or
were places especially designed that would include accomodation for
the storage of bodies while awaiting cremation. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 05:22:58 PST 1996
Article: 85207 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka mass graves
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 16:40:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Identifying or verifying mass graves from the existing photos of
Treblinka taken in 1944 is not possible. In fact the photos suggest
nothing was buried there.

	Well known to the world of botany is the fact that certain plants
prefer certain kinds of soil. This means they would thrive better in
one kind than another, and it would be noticeable. Try growing a patch
of tomatoes say, in sandy clay and another in highly organic humus
soil and you will get two very distinct results. 

	Geologic studies clearly show that soils in any particular area
have a sequential composition from the surface on down to lower
depths. The surface layer of soil over bedrock is known as regolith.
Thus we could have a sandy composition near the surface with it
changing to clay as we dig down. Whatever the local composition, it
will be one thing at the surface and something lower down. Even if we
had sand going down the 20 feet, the sand at the surface would be
modified by the growing and dying of vegetation. Thus, if we took a
quantity of soil from the surface and a quantity from say 20 feet down
and then grew the same kind of plants in it, we would get a different
results from one to the other. Thusly too, if we dug a trench and then
filled it back in, the sequences would be mixed and that at the
surface would now be different from the adjacent area. 

	Aerial photographs of Treblinka show agriculture having been
expanded around the area identified as the camp, with some it
extending right into the area. Not only this, the expansion has taken
place right over some of where the mass graves were said to have been.

	In the case of the aerial photographs of Treblinka we can not see
any signs of difference in the encroaching agriculture over the grave
site area and the field it extends from. The part over the alleged
grave sites that has not been cultivated tends to be homogeneous with
the rest in the immediate proximity.  

	

	
	
 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 05:56:30 PST 1996
Article: 38553 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: How does it feel to count the money, Mr. Zundel?
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:13:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <32aeeb29.15753368@199.0.216.204>
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>X-Horsepucky: In article <199612100050.QAA30820@mailmasher.com>, 
>seneca  wrote:
>
>>Ken McVay OBC wrote:
>
>>> >Writes Ernst:
>
>>> >  "Anybody who has investigated the shenanigans of the Holocaust profiteers
>
>>> How does one feel, Mr. Zundel, knowing of the pain one has
>>> deliberately inflicted on these human beings? Does it give you
>>> pleasure when you count the money?
>
>>Talk about the Big Lie technique.  I suppose all the multi-millionaires and
>>billionaires supporting Ken McVay and his ilk are fictional. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Translation: Mr. Zundel's promotion and sale of the videotape "Das
>Lachout Dokument," which promotes a document proven to be a
>blatant forgery, and which promotes Emil Lachout, the proven
>forger, provides income for Mr. Zundel. I will not address how Mr.
>Zundel feels when he counts the money, as it is more than a tad
>embarrassing to admit that he profits from the Holocaust.

	The Jews having profited billion$, hundreds of billion$, now we
see Hilary coming on like Zundel is in it for the profit.

>>Ernst Zundel must be the most courageous man on Earth.  But unfortunately (and
>>not by coincidence), he's not very wealthy.  
>
>Translation: I will divert attention from Mr. Zundel's Holocaust
>profiteering.
>
>>So McVay, how did your latest death-squad attack go?
>
>So, Mr. Zundel, how does it feel when you count the money?
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org

	Hilary, what have you done with McVay? Or what has McVay done
with himself?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 07:45:24 PST 1996
Article: 85239 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another let down for the $$$$$
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:29:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>
>what he read in a newspaper. Moran has no original thoughts. Some say 
>Moran has no thoughts...period. Whatever!!!

	Chuck, did you say this? "I do not understand any of this, but
this man knows what he's talking about. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 07:45:28 PST 1996
Article: 85240 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 08:05:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <32ae194c.59938773@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <32b9491a.6640926@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> >
>> ># Even though the 1944 photograph shows Treblinka to be nothing
>> ># more than a clearing, agriculture, some trees and three or four
>> ># buildings, 
>> >
>> >Could this have anything to do with the fact that the camp was
>> >partially destroyed in the sonderkommando rebellion, and then 
>> >dismantled (in 1943)?
>> 
>>         No. There was no rebellion. 
>
>And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 
>
>Interesting, is it not, that Arad has several chapters of his book,
>_Belzac, Sobibor, and Treblinka: the operation Reinhard death camps_,
>dedicated to the Treblinka uprising which too place on August 2, 1943? 

	You say there is something written in a book? You say "several
chapters"? Of course this would be 'testimony' - right? Would anyone
be able to prove any of it? Is there any documentation other than what
someone said?
>
>> There were no buildings. 
>
>Interesting, is it not, that Arad includes several pictures, from the Kurt
>Franz Album, of buidings and structures at Treblinka? Or does tghe
>Moran(tm) insist that the "zoo" (cf. Arad, _Belzac, Sobibor, and
>Treblinka_, p.93), for example,  did not exist? 

	Now this is more like it. "Pictures". You say Arad's book
includes several pictures, from the Kurt Franz Album? Are any of these
pictures carried by other Holocaust books, museums, websites - like -
Nizkor? If not, would you know why?


>And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 
>
>
>> There are no signs of there ever being any buildings, other than what is
>shown in the 1944 photo.
>
>And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 
>
>Interesting, is it not, that Arad includes several pictures, from the Kurt
>Franz Album, of buidings and structures at Treblinka? Or does tghe
>Moran(tm) insist that the "zoo" (cf. Arad, _Belzac, Sobibor, and
>Treblinka_, p.93), for example,  did not exist? 

	I consider it to be what aerial photos show it to have been in
1940 and what it came to be in 1944 with any changes taking place in
between.

	I might think this book by Arad might be a bit difficult for
people to get a hold of and it might be a service of Nizkor to include
these photos in their files. After all, they are out there as an
"educational resource" and educational institutes should strive to be
thorough, especially one that is specialized to a certain topic like
Nizkor. One might suppose it would be a benefit to their cause for
selling the Holocaust story as true.

	Or perhaps you could post them yourself. 

	The rest of Mr.Van Alstine's stuff deleted as irrelevant. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 07:45:31 PST 1996
Article: 85242 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 16:56:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 2
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	Sort of like the square peg in a round hole.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 07:45:33 PST 1996
Article: 85248 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Crematorium logistics
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 16:53:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	When going over photographs of Auschwitz-Birkenau and trying to
make something out of them, it is eyewitness versus the photo. What
the eye witnesses say and what the photos say. The photos offer
nothing for thought without prior knowledge of the story. The story is
based on eyewitness testimony. The only thing left to do is to see if
the testimonies are made fact or even feasible by the photographic
evidence.

	When looking at aerial reconnaissance photos of the buildings
Cremas II and III, two alleged centers of mass extermination, it would
be completely natural to try and put the elements of the story to the
photo. 

	As to Auschwitz-Birkenau there are ample eyewitness testimonies,
discordant as they are, that give the details.
	
	That;

 The people were taken there by the thousands, each day, for months.

 They entered into the building.
 
 They were led down stairs to subterranean gas chambers.

 They were made to strip naked.
 
 Gassed.

 Their bodies brought back up the stairs (or elevator).
 
 They were then stacked on the first floor in the same large room

 where the ovens were. 
 
 When room ran out in there, the bodies were taken out side and   
 stacked in the yard.

 The bodies were brought back in when there was room.
 
 The gassed victims were cremated to ashes and blackened hulks of 
 charred bone.
 
 The remains were taken outside to a crushing machine and further 
 reduced to smaller sizes.

 The ashes were then taken away.
 
                          -------------

	As we precede with trying to get a conceptual picture of the
above list taking place in concordance with photos and plans, we
should keep in mind that thousands a day are said to have gone through
the sequence, and the activity in and around the building would have
been continuous minute by minute.
  
	Now when looking at aerial photos of Cremas II or III they are
usually presented with the viewer looking west. The cremas are aligned
long wise to east/west. Photos of these cremas can show Crema II to
have had a fence in two different places. Foregoing any discussion
about this we could focus on applying the above listed eyewitness
accounts to the buildings themselves. We can focus on Crema II because
it gets 99% of the attention in the Holocaust story. Crema II and III
were about identical in size and design and were about 40 feet across
and 100 feet long.

	The people are said to have been brought in from the rail line
that entered the camp from the east side and terminated at and
between, but not past, the two cremas. The people were unloaded at a
platform about 150 meters (yards +) east of the crema compounds. They
were led through the entrance to the compound and led over the 100 or
so feet to the building.

	There are a number of photos of this building taken on the
ground. Some are from the south side (the rear), some from the north
side (from the rail tracks), as well as one from the east side, taken
while it was under construction. There are also some plans available
said to have been by the Germans and agreeing with the photographs.
All ground photos were taken by the Germans themselves.

	When considering the aerial photos, the ground photos and the
plans of Crema II and trying to combine them with eyewitness
testimony, a lot of problems arise.

	Doors. Where were the doors that the victims went through? Where
were the doors that the exterminating workers took the bodies outside
for storage when the inside got filled up? Where were the doors that
where used for taking the charred carcasses and ashes out and the coal
in? Where were the doors that workers carried out all the discarded
clothing? By the time we get done examining which of three doors would
be the best candidate for whatever, we can get the idea all the above
activity took place through no more than two doors.  

	The ground photos and plans show only doors on each end of the
building and at the ell where the chimney is located. The chimney is
located almost directly in the center of the ell. The chimney is made
of brick and quite wide, which for construction reference could be
called massive. It would require being set on to a solid foundation
directly associated with the ground in lieu of say only going to the
rafters of the ell extension. Thus we can see in the photos that it
must have taken up quite a bit of the breadth of the ell on the
inside, which gives the image that there may be sidle room only past
it to the interior of the main building.

	The center of the main building, where the ovens are said to have
been was a large room making up maybe 2/3 of the building's length.

      No other doors are on that side, the one with the ell. Photos of
the other side (south) show only a little over half of the building
with no doors visible. If there were any doors they would have to exit
or enter from on top of the cellar identified as the gas chamber.

	So we are left with two doors. One at one end and one at another
end. These doors appear to be double multiple pane, 'French Door'
style. 

	At the west end the building we have a cellar extending out as an
underground extension of the long dimension of the surface building.
>From  the south side another cellar extends out perpendicular from near
the same end at the southwest corner. A number of photographs exist
that show these cellars, which in the aerial shots are revealed by
shadows which means most or all of the cellar structures are above
ground and/or covered over with a earthen layer with a rise of about a
meter(3 feet).

	What kind of arrangement there was at the cellars end of the
building for doors is kind of hard to conceive, since it would seem
the raised section of the cellars were continuous right up to the
building.     
	
	If the people entered in at the east door, this would mean they
would have to run the 70 foot gauntlet past piled up bodies, scenes of
bodies being put into ovens, ashes and blackened charred body parts
being pulled out in order to get to the gas chamber at the other end.
(There is an eyewitness testimony that says victims were led past the
stacks of bodies and cremation scene.)

	If they entered at the other end (west) they would be entering
over one of the cellars. Now whether or not the cellar was raised
right there or not is up for grabs. Crematorium plans by the Germans
themselves show three doors, all corresponding to where the doors are
already discussed.

	Considering the elevated nature of the cellars at the west end it
seems this end wouldn't have been a good one for any of the things
said to have happened by eyewitness testimonies. Bodies being stacked
up for lack of room inside, piles of charred carcasses, a crushing
machine, a truck backed in, all the people like sondercommando
workers, carrying a body in or out, carrying out remains, carrying in
coal, and SS guards, and at times, doctors and aids there pouring in
the pellets, all taking place in this up and down local terrain
created by the cellars. In fact we could consider the cellars sticking
three feet above the rest of the ground to be just wide walls.

	The other end would have been 80 or 90 feet away from the where
the victims were gassed and a poor choice for some steps of the
routine.

	The German crematorium plans for the interiors show smaller rooms
at each end of the building. Bathrooms, offices and lounge room. This
complicates the picture in itself. Trying to put eyewitness testimony
to the exterior plans and photos is difficult enough in itself, but
once you have the interior plans in your head, trying to formulate a
picture for the in and out activity gets even more elusive. 

	The over all procedure for trying to grasp the course of events
as to eyewitness testimony versus photos would be to try and determine
through which of the two doors each extermination step took place.   
	
	Thus, do we have the victims entering into the east door or the
west door? Are the charred remains carried out the east door or the
west door? Which door is used for carrying out the bodies when the
inside gets filled up? Through which door do the victims enter? 

	Well, what with the number of extermination steps being attested
to by eyewitness testimonies, we have a number of possible
combinations as to what took place through which doors, and no matter
what combination we pick to consider, the picture is ridiculous. 

	Many buildings have been built over the centuries, from temples
to pyramids to factories and stores and even on to those other
buildings at Aschwitz-Birkenau itself. For the very most part, or even
the whole part, we can see the significance of a building's design as
to it's purpose, but for the cremas, they stand as lone contradictions
among the rest. 

	Putting it all together we can see the building is far from being
a appropriate design for what it is alleged to have been for. What
with any ill situated exterior doors, interior doors, stairs, hall
ways and obstructing elevations in the yard, it would be a logistical
nightmare.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 07:45:34 PST 1996
Article: 85249 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grosvenor's woe
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 08:03:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <32ad1934.59914441@199.0.216.204>
References: <32A42B25.54E7@concentric.net> <32A56DF8.6585@concentric.net> <32a71be6.1695201@news.micron.net>  <58erjl$9oj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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>In article , 
>William "Gruber is a Jewish name" Grosvenor, posing
>inappropriately as "WAHRHEIT"  wrote:
>
>>Actually I have laid the charges with the RCMP against the person with
>>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Edmonton freenet, which is a business for which I paid a year in advance,
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>and is not free!!!
>>
>>They have now SWINDLED me out of the year's prepayment of service fees.
>
>Translation: I agreed to abide by the Edmonton Freenet's Terms of Service.
>Had I not done so, they would not have permitted me to use the system. I 
>then violated those selfsame terms, and was quite properly turfed.
>(Those Wascally Joos made me do it!)

	Hilary, is that you? What have you done with McVay?

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 07:45:35 PST 1996
Article: 85251 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Worthless Photo Evidence
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:02:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
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	And to think, Nizkor is run by a synagogue. Well so much for god
and honesty. But, then again, the Jews are "Chosen" and anything that
may be a sin with others is alright by their god if they opt for the
same.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 10:45:27 PST 1996
Article: 85263 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay: Who, what, how - why - and where?
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 15:59:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <32b2e5b8.2415491@199.0.216.204>
References: <32b85a11.12045107@199.0.216.204> <58dbbu$s0k$17@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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>In message <32b85a11.12045107@199.0.216.204> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran)Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:49:49 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>
>:>	Who is there at Nizkor filing in for McVay and using his sign?
>
>Der ewige Jude.
>
>:>	What is going on?
>
>It's a plot, zeyde.
>
>:>	How did it all come about?
>
>It's a secret, zeyde.
>
>:>	Why?
>
>I can't say, zeyde.
>
>:>	And where is the real McVay?
>
>He's everywhere, zeyde.
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time

	Seems "McFee" agrees with Moran that something is up at Nizkor
and McVay is missing.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 10:45:27 PST 1996
Article: 85266 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: edm.general,can.general,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Grossvenor's bum's rush [freenet.edmonton.ab.ca]
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:40:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <32b70b0b.568638@199.0.216.204>
References:  <58c7g2$137i@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <32ab5ddb.280765878@news.micron.net> <58n1j5$iht$2@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58n0h4$nh8@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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>In article <58n1j5$iht$2@gryphon.phoenix.net>, 
>"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org

	Hilary, is that you? What have you done with McVay?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 10:45:28 PST 1996
Article: 85270 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:53:08 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
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	Another major logistically nonsensical thing about the cremas is
the rail line. As mentioned in the lead article, this rail line into
Birkenau terminated at but not past the cremas.

	Logistically, the sensible design would have been to have the
rail line go past the cremas so the people could be unloaded right
there at the entrances on each side instead of having it where only
the locomotive or last car was immediately proximate, depending on
whether or not the train pulled in straight, locomotive first, or was
backed in.

	Instead, the system was set up so that the alleged victims would
have to walk over 150 yards to the cremas from the loading/unloading
platform, past a good part of the women's compound on one side and the
mens compound on the other side. Thousands a day being brought in to
be marched in clear view of thousands of inmates never to show up in
the compound.

	Eyewitness testimony has it that the Germans had put up
intertwining branches in the barbed wire fences to obstruct any
viewing of the thousands a day being led off down the tracks to the
cremas. This is the eyewitness testimony. A number of photos show
something else - the reverse in fact. New arrivals on the platform
with the barbed wire fence around the women's compound in the back
ground, with absolutely no obstructions and a clear view of the
barracks, meaning the view was vice versa. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 17:20:50 PST 1996
Article: 85287 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka mass graves
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 15:57:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <32b1e4a1.2136582@199.0.216.204>
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	Mr.Keren, you never dropped in to make comment on discussion of
the 1940 and 1944 photos of the area said to have been 
Treblinka "extermination camp". 
	Mr.Keren, the 1944 photos show nothing more than expanded
agriculture in the area and a few buildings, while Holocaust
allegations are that the Soviets arrived at the camp while it was
still in full operation. Any comment? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 17:20:50 PST 1996
Article: 85290 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:36:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
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References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>   <32b52bdd.64691104@199.0.216.204>  <01bbe79b$fc85e0c0$e5809710@sheldon.ako.dec.com> <58nj6v$iut@sf18.dseg.ti.com>
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>
>Despite the fact that Israel allows almost any Jewish Person to move there,
>and does not allow Muslims in the Army it is a secular state.  The Jewish
>religious leaders donot run the country.  In fact Israel has a much
>larger percentage of atheists than the US.  Freedom of worship is 
>protected in the Constitution of Israel.  This is certainly not true in
>several Arab Countries.
>
>Robert Posey

	Israel has a Ministry of Religion. It's not for goyim. Rabbis
play a big role in the workings of the country. Judaism is a religion,
Israel is a Judaic state.
	The stuff about the highest per capita atheists, I have heard the
atheist disclaimer enough times from Jewish folk when debates get the
best of them. 
	"Freedom of worship"? I recall one incident, that still doesn't
play well with Mormon attitudes, which was the hassle they got when
they wanted to build a temple there. It was demanded they not try to
convert any Jews.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 12 17:28:52 PST 1996
Article: 38626 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: There is no truth
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:33:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <32b209af.220743@199.0.216.204>
References: <199612032349.PAA24815@mailmasher.com>  <32ac52dd.38183530@news.gte.net> <32ADE9FB.34D8@trib.infi.net> <58mj4a$eon@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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>In article <32ADE9FB.34D8@trib.infi.net>, arcaro@trib.infi.net wrote:
>
>[Identity claptrap]
>
>>(I am not particularly religious, just throwing this in for discussion)
>
>No one involved with Identity can fairly be described as
>religious, so I accept your disclaimer. Now perhaps you will tell
>us what any of that had to do with the Holocaust?
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org

	Hilary, what have you done with McVay? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 13 05:45:05 PST 1996
Article: 85307 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:34:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <32b309b5.226126@199.0.216.204>
References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>   <32b52bdd.64691104@199.0.216.204>  <01bbe79b$fc85e0c0$e5809710@sheldon.ako.dec.com>
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>> In article <32b52bdd.64691104@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran)
>> wrote:
>> >         Israel is a Jewish state. Jewish aside from being a racist
>> > movement, is a religious group. Therefore U.S. aid to Israel is in
>> > defiance of any "separation of church and state". But Sara doesn't see
>
>Here is the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution
>
>*************************************************
>Amendment I 
>
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
>or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
>petition the government for a redress of grievances. 
>*************************************************
>
>Show me where making an alliance with or giving aid to a foreign country
>that is predominately one religion is:
>
>"making a law respecting the an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
>the free exercise thereof"?  
>
>Remember that U.S. laws only apply in the U.S. and do not apply to citizens
>of foreign countries when they are in their own countries taking actions
>with respect to their own citizens.
>
>Shelly 

	The U.S. by law is not supposed to support any kind of religion.
Israel was founded on its racist/religious being. U.S. should not
support it.
	As for defending themselves. The Jews went there, the occupants
didn't like it, the brethren didn't like it. Did the Arabs go to the
Jews or did the Jews go to the Arabs? You can think they should have
and currently should just throw up their hands and say 'Welcome'. Is
this what Jews would do? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 13 10:34:11 PST 1996
Article: 85413 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:54:19 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.clinton:341593 alt.discrimination:58259 alt.politics.white-power:51945 alt.politics.nationalism.white:38695 alt.skinheads:45404 alt.conspiracy:119782 alt.religion.islam:36023 alt.revisionism:85413 soc.culture.jewish:99647

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>	As for defending themselves. The Jews went there, the occupants
>>didn't like it, the brethren didn't like it. Did the Arabs go to the
>>Jews or did the Jews go to the Arabs?
>
>Interesting that you should bring that up: during the Gulf War, when
>kicked out of Saudi Arabia by their loving Arab brethren, quite
>literally tens of thousands of Arabs fled through Jordan to Judea and
>Samaria, clearly preferring to live under the supposedly iron heel of
>evil Jooos than with their own Arab brethren in any of the twenty-odd
>Arab countries.
>
>I'd suggest that that ought to make you think, but I'm not about to
>ask for miracles.

	A crock. Fiction. Lie.

	"Judea" and "Samaria"?
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Joel Rosenberg       | For news about upcoming books,  | My opinions are mine.
>joelr@winternet.com  | finger joelr@winternet.com      | Whose are yours?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 13 16:01:03 PST 1996
Article: 85461 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about CODOH
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:33:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <32b0099b.200641@199.0.216.204>
References: <58i618$p6m@news.enter.net> <19961211074100.CAA16264@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32afc712.58654239@news.zilker.net> <58mtbs$mve@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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>In article <32afc712.58654239@news.zilker.net>, 
>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>CODOH responded in 1994, good sir:
>
>"You misunderstand the mission of CODOH.   We're  in  the  business of 
>promoting open debate, not necessarily engaging in it."(Ross Vicksell)
>
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org

	Hilary, is that you? What have you done with McVay?



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 14 07:55:09 PST 1996
Article: 85581 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay: Who, what, how - why - and where?
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:50:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 219
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 
>: 	Who is there at Nizkor filing in for McVay and using his sign?
>: 
>: 	What is going on?
>: 
>: 	How did it all come about?
>: 
>: 	Why?
>: 
>: 	And where is the real McVay?
>
>Abducted by aliens, of course.  The same ones who concocted the
>French Revolution on the Grassy Knoll while hiding the body of
>Christ on the set of the fake moon landing.
>
>You really are quite insane, aren't you, Tom?
>
>Bill

   The best of Billy Anderson.

           'See a person's words, now his capacity.'
--------------------------------------------------------------


: 	I think the time is growing nigh for a "Best of Anderson".

Tom-boy, I would be honored.  You just don't know.

They won't even let me use the hot tub at ZOG headquarters until
you do a "Best of Anderson".

Bill
-----


	Yeah?  Well, I once heard Nikita Kruschev say "Bob Whitaker and
Tom 
Moran are Venusian Clone Robots introduced into Western Society by
Comintern in order to confuse the Running Dog Imperialists."

Boy, this quote-inventing game is fun!  Thanks, guys...

Bill
-----

Really?  Gee, I gotta call all my Jewish friends.  They're sitting
on a gold mine!

Tom, 'fess up--you can't really be as stupid as you pretend to be,
can you?

Can he?

Bill
-----


Really?  Huh.  I'll admit that Jews have a special interest in 
the Holocaust--just as, if 6 million half-wit buffoons were 
rounded up and murdered, Moran would have a special interest.
But "all by their lonesome"?  "No one else"?  Has Moran failed
to note the fact that many, if not most, of the regular anti-denier
posters on this group are not Jews at all, but rather insidious
wretched race traitors like myself?

Moran wrong again.  Hard to believe, huh?

Bill
-----


Yes, Li'l Tommy-- Danny teaches at MIS, which stands for "Miskatonic
Institute of Surreality."  They're summoning the Old Gods to help 
ZOG in it's campaign to undermine the Noble Aryan Race.

Wanna apply?

Bill
-----


We get paid according to the number of Aryan children we corrupt,
Tommy.
Payment is in Gold Bullion, dropped down our chimneys by Black
Helikopters.

Bill
-----


Damn it!  

Calling all ZOG agents--People's Hero Giwer has discoved that the 
American Arbitration Association is in on the Grand Unified 
Konspiracy.  Burn-bag all pertinent documents with extreme prejudice.

Bill Anderson
Coordinator, Committee on Coordination
Hibernian Occupation Government
--------------------------------


Add Monty Python to the staggeringly long list of things about which
Moran knows nothing.

Bill
-----


Oh, geez--just when I think I'm getting good at Moranian, something
like this pops up...

Sigh.

Okay--who's got that dictionary?

Bill
-----


Funny; I just pointed my rigii at the Nizkor site, opened the file
menu, clicked on print, and a nifty little printout popped out.

Of course, I have the Secret ZOG Decoder software...

Bill
-----


Uh...  I don't know, Tommy.  I suppose so, except that Hilary's is
a ring, and mine is software.  You do know the difference between
a ring and software, don't you, Tommy?

Bill
-----


Well, really, I do too.  It's a severe breach of nettiquette,
of course; everybody knows you're supposed to post German documents
in Lithuanian.

Bill
-----


Damn!  They're on to us again, guys--cheese it!

Bill Anderson
Third Sub-assistant to the Associate Director of Protocol
Hibernian Occupation Government
--------------------------------


Incredible.  He doesn't know what arbitration is.  

Moran, you must own a dictionary.  If you'd open it from time to time,
you wouldn't look like quite such an ass.

Bill
-----


Is that an admission of illiteracy, Tom?

Bill
-----


Make it stop.  Please.

Bill
-----


I don't know anyone named McFly, but if he can stop you and Tommy 
>from  gibbering inanely on my monitor, I will search for him with
great dilligence.  Really, Matt--if people want to read the kind
of trash you've been posting of late, they can delve into the 
K12 hierarchy.  You've dropped to Moran's level, and you continue
to plummet.  I realize Alec's arrival has been tough on you, but
do try to keep your end up just a bit, huh?

Bill
-----


hat in the name of God is this man talking about?  I thought I had
gotten pretty adept at Moranian, but this just boggles the mind.

Anybody?  Help!

Bill
-----


What in the name of God is an "afro-asian"?  Why are you
knuckledraggers
constantly inventing new terms for people you want to spit on?

Bill
-----


Hey, maybe he's really going to do this!  Damn--I knew I'd regret
my procrastination in helping out Nizkor.

Ken, if I promise to mark up some pages real soon, can I come to 
Florida with you guys and spend Matt's money?  Huh?  Can I?
Please?

Bill
-----







From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 14 13:08:18 PST 1996
Article: 85658 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: We want the $wi$$ - regardless
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:42:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
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>	Regardless of all this, it is stated that the blow hard, foot
>stompin, self righteous Edgar Bronfman urged Switzerland to set up a
>"interim fund" and to have it start to pay out to Jews anyway. An
>article in the L.A.Times on the same subject put the figure at
>$250,000,000.  

	This $250,000,000 would be the pay off amount that would be
acceptable to the Jews for them to ease back and let the whole thing
blow over.
	As it stands, it looks like the Swiss may not be in the mood to
so readily fall over backwards as fast as the United States Congress
does when the little storms of huff and puff, foot stompin, self
righteous, threatening, outraged indignation blusters at them.

	You can bet Bronfman was huffing and puffing, fluffing his
feathers, foot stompin, blustering about in front of the committee.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 14 19:35:01 PST 1996
Article: 85699 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grosvenor's woe
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:14:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <32b0e605.1732938@199.0.216.204>
References: <32A42B25.54E7@concentric.net> <32A56DF8.6585@concentric.net> <32a71be6.1695201@news.micron.net>  <58erjl$9oj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32ad1934.59914441@199.0.216.204> <58q8bf$145c@news.ccit.arizona.edu>
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: >In article , 
>: >William "Gruber is a Jewish name" Grosvenor, posing
>: >inappropriately as "WAHRHEIT"  wrote:
>: >
>: >>Actually I have laid the charges with the RCMP against the person with
>: >>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: >>Edmonton freenet, which is a business for which I paid a year in advance,
>: >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: >>and is not free!!!
>: >>
>: >>They have now SWINDLED me out of the year's prepayment of service fees.
>: >
>: >Translation: I agreed to abide by the Edmonton Freenet's Terms of Service.
>: >Had I not done so, they would not have permitted me to use the system. I 
>: >then violated those selfsame terms, and was quite properly turfed.
>: >(Those Wascally Joos made me do it!)
>
>: 	Hilary, is that you? What have you done with McVay?
>
>Hilary Ostrov took an axe
>And gave Sir Nizkor 40 whacks
>When she saw what she had done
>She took his code to post for fun
>
>Ya think?

Billy Anderson or Chuck, is that you? What have you done with
Mr.Mittleman?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 15 19:21:26 PST 1996
Article: 85892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Debate
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 19:55:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <32c40408.19349857@199.0.216.204>
References: <32b8cca0.8487626@news.inetport.com>
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>Debate has hardly ever been a friendly affair. 
>
>The meanings of the word taken from _The American Heritage Dictionary_
>are thus:
>
>1. To deliberate; consider. 2. To engage in argument by discussing
>opposing points. 3. To engage in formal discussion or argument. 4.
>*obs.* To fight; quarrel. --tr. 1. To deliberate upon; consider. 2. To
>dispute or argue about. 3. To discuss or argue (a question, for
>example) formally. 4. *obs* To fight or argue for over. 
>
>The Noun: (which is the way I see CODOH using the word.)
>
>--n. 1. A discussion involving opposing points; argument. 2.
>Deliberation; consideration. 3. A formal contest of argumentation in
>which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition. 4.
>*Obs* Conflict; strife.
>
>An argument is defined as above and further: A quarrel or contention.
>It is also defined as "a course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating
>the truth or falsehood of something." 

======================================================================
>Debate is not a sanitized discussion but also goes to the character
>and the motivations of each contending group. 
	Like $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$ and gold.
======================================================================

>With Holzer's book and David Donald's reasoned response we have a
>debate. It is a debate made up of substantiation and great effort. It
>is not a debate of distorting material, but explaining existing
>material. The integrity of the material offered within a debate is a
>factor as to how the debate will proceed. Don't you think?

	On this note, let us proceed.

	Mr.Curtis, could we start off with your address to the quite
distrubing fact that there are two very distinct claims made about the
whens and hows of the fate of the Treblinka "extermination center",
which has been a recent and ongoing topic on alt.revisionsim, and you
haven't popped in to make comment?

	But then again, I didn't quite get what point you were trying to
make with the other 200 or so lines (deleted), after your starting off
with the basic dictionary definition of "debate", so maybe I'm making
a presumption by requesting we proceed with the first challenge. Did
you have something else in mind? 

>Mike Curtis 
>E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 15 19:21:26 PST 1996
Article: 85901 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!snunews.snu.ac.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Worthless Photo Evidence
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:35:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <32b509e0.269846@199.0.216.204>
References: <32af3068.318565@199.0.216.204> <32af4db9.5766520@news.gte.net>
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>On Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:32:28 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/thekla/images
>
>	Corrections here.  Dessicated and 5-7 day old bodies turn dark.  
>
>>.01 Two prisoners standing over two charred bodies. Who took the
>>photo, who are the victims? Not captioned.
>
>	Charred in this case means dark.  However, in a fire the smallest
>extremities burn off, all hair is gone.  Thin parts of the body like
>lipes and eyelids burn away.  Examine the pictures closely for such
>signs.  
>
>>.02 Three bodies along a three foot barbed wire fence. Who, how, not
>>captioned.
>
>	Note they are equally dark but without the signs of burning and
>they obviously did not burn in place as the bushes on the other side
>of the fence are undamaged.  
>
>>.03 Three grotesque badly burned bodies. Who, how, not captioned.
>
>	Is not this the one with a very flammable shoe still on one of the
>bodies?  Both legs are equally dark and thus if burned, equally burned
>but the show survives on one foot.  How is that possible?  
>
>	In other words what we have are the bodies of people who died
>dehydrated such as with typhus and dysentary and have been exposed for
>some time.  There is no clear evidence of fire damage.  (email
>exchange for clarification is encouraged to Moran only.)  
>
	Burnt bodies, singed bodies, sun baked, bloated - whatever. Some
kind of bodies. The analysis of the details is not necessary at this
time for the particular point made here. This might come into play,
later on, when it's time for them to claim this or that. The point
here is, there is absolutely no accompanying copy to explain anything.
The photos are meaningless, their worthless as evidence.

	As to the contents of the photos, even if they were explained,
and anyone fell for it, a couple of bodies here and a couple there
does nothing to prove they were gassed, shot or whatever and wouldn't
help in one little iota the alligation millions were exterminated.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 07:05:28 PST 1996
Article: 85907 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:44:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <32c11b70.7177324@199.0.216.204>
References: <329ba952.15778030@199.0.216.204> <32ae194c.59938773@199.0.216.204>  <32c11be4.4881459@199.0.216.204> 
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>
>## While the "leading Holocaust revisionist" Matt Giwer,
>## says that there were buildings in Treblinka, his esteemed
>## colleague, Tom Moran, said there were no buildings there
>## whatsoever.
>
># Show where Moran said "there were no buildings whatsoever", or
># even anything even close. Your failure to show it will be your
># indictment.
>
>Here's where you said it, Tommy.
>
>
>
> alt.revisionism #141704 (2940 more)
> From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
> Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
> Date: Mon Dec 09 12:21:20 EST 1996
> Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
>
> >Could this have anything to do with the fact that the camp was
> >partially destroyed in the sonderkommando rebellion, and then
> >dismantled (in 1943)?
>
> No. There was no rebellion. There were no buildings. There
> are no signs of there ever being any buildings, other than
> what is shown in the 1944 photo.
>
>
>
>It seems quite clear to me, Tommy. Or maybe the senile, crazed
>drunkard, Matt Giwer, is now forging your articles also?

	Poor Mr.Keren. 

	Cut and pasted from six lines up. "..., other than
what is shown in the 1944 photo".

	As to Mr.Keren's designation "senile, crazed drunkard", well ...

"..., other than what is shown in the 1944 photo".
"..., other than what is shown in the 1944 photo".
"..., other than what is shown in the 1944 photo".
"..., other than what is shown in the 1944 photo".
"..., other than what is shown in the 1944 photo".

	What about it Mr.Keren?

>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 07:05:29 PST 1996
Article: 85921 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.azstarnet.com!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran, argue with this
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:34:24 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <32b409dc.265177@199.0.216.204>
References: <32A495EC.35C6@rio.com> <32a8e309.995955@199.0.216.204> <32ad3699.2964631@199.0.216.204> <32ade12b.1250477@199.0.216.204>
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>>
>> "I do not understand any of this, but this man knows what he's
>>talking about." Chuck Ferree
>>
>>
>>	After going over the contents of the e-mail Chuck received and
>>posted, Moran's wondering whether or not someone has either singled
>>Chuck out for the e-mail because of his special talents for
>>understanding or because they thought Chuck was the most likely
>>candidate who might see it as worthy of posting.
>>
>	Chuck?
	Chuck?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 07:05:30 PST 1996
Article: 85952 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Big "Mistake"
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:18:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <32b83046.4731404@199.0.216.204>
References: <32b52f51.4486548@199.0.216.204>
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When the major discrepancy came to be discussed on alt.revisionism a
post by "McVay" appeared to say, 

"Mr. Moran refers to
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.02,
with cites Sachar, who says that the Russians overran the camp,
there were survivors, etc., long after, in fact, the day the camp
had been completely dismantled. - in short, Sachar was out to lunch...
I have annoted the file, provided references to far more accurate
work, and thanked Mr. Moran for highlighting the error. It stands
as a classic example of why historians rely upon a convergence of
evidence - if that were not the case, sloppy work like Sachar's
would dominate the field."
	"McVay" went on to say the file would be "annotated" in Nizkor
FTPs.  		

	This is the annotation now in Nizkor files:

"The following citation provides an example of the importance of
accurate research. It is clear from other published reports that
Treblinka had been dismantled prior to the arrival of Soviet
troops. Thus the information below cannot be correct. Nizkor would
like to thank Tom Moran for pointing out this error. For further
information about the dismantling of the camp at Treblinka, we
recommend orgs/israeli/yad-vashem/yvs.camps.04. My thanks to Tom
Moran for pointing out the monumental errors in the following
text."
knm. 1996/12/08

	As to the "monumental errors", "errors" is one way of putting it.
'Fabrication, trumped up, lies' would be the more accurate,
appropriate and honest designation and one that wouldn't be so
insulting to the intelligence of those who would access the Nizkor
cesspool.

	This is the Holocaust story. A self perpetuating series of lies
and cover ups.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 07:05:31 PST 1996
Article: 85954 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!swrinde!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 16:31:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <32c527ac.10309202@199.0.216.204>
References:  <19961212201400.PAA12858@ladder01.news.aol.com> <58s9st$i7l@access5.digex.net> <32c426e1.10106364@199.0.216.204>
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>>In article <19961212201400.PAA12858@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>Tutu101  wrote:

>>    Here's a clue if you and Mr. Giwer are still having a problem with
>>this: if you live in a large metropolitan area, check out your local
>>telephone directory for the name "Gandhi" and see how many listings you
>>find.  It shouldn't take a 163 IQ to figure it out.

>	Which proves nothing about "Gandhi". Going by his writing style,
>"Gandhi" is obviously a Jew. 

	The same goes for "McFee".

>>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 10:41:02 PST 1996
Article: 85974 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!amberjack.netrunner.net!news2.agis.net!agis!newsgod1.agis.net!agis!newspeer1.agis.net!agis!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Clinton Decries Opposition "Meanness"
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:24:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 48
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	"Clinton Decries Taste for Political 'Meanness' in U.S."
                    L.A.Times, Dec.15, 1996

President expresses
anger about low level of
discourse favored by some
politicians, talk show hosts.
His strong remarks will air
tonight.

	President Clinton loves his job but says he hates "the politics
of personal destruction and meanness" he feels have replaced debate
over issues and ideas on the national scene.
	Americans, Clinton said, should not "pay any attention to all
this sort of hate mongering and venom-spewing ..."

	The article goes on to say this all comes from an interview to be
aired on C-Span tonight. He says it ties up his thinking. He gets to
brooding about it. He is also upset about the low sales of his book
"Between Hope and History". Five hundred thousand copies of the book
were printed and the publishers said they expected up to 350,000 of
them to be returned from book stores. He blames it partly on the
failure to promote it. 

	Of course many people might have read his first book written in
partnership with Gore. 

	The book is said to be a discourse on his first term and what he
plans for the second term. Of course the first term was a dismal
failure, what with all the talk about wide scale medical coverage,
which went by the wayside, his failures in foreign affairs and all.

	Clinton is said to have gotten 50% of the vote submitted by the
eligable voters who voted. Fifty percent of the eligable voters didn't
vote. This would give him 25% of the eligable vote. Considering many
do not even register to vote, we could reduce this number to maybe 20%
or lower. What with little kids and such who are not eligable, he may
have gotten only 10%.

	Now with the latest, in your face, appointments of Jews to the
top most important positions, people are not in any mood for his crap.

	Evidently even some of the those who are so prone to wag their
tails to the Jewish shadow are given to taking a few jabs. 

	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 10:41:03 PST 1996
Article: 85983 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!gatech!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Big "Mistake"
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:16:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Over the past number of months, Moran has posted and reposted,
"Treblinka: There, gone, there again" citing the following passage
taken from Nizkor files and comparing it to other contradictory
assertions of the Holocaust story.
	All of the Holocaust/true/defense league found it better not to
pop in and make a comment. Then when this came up under another
discussion, Mr.Keren, ardant dependent on the Holocaust story denied
it was ever stated. When the evidence was given to him directly, he
came back to say the writer of the book the passage was taken from
made a "mistake".

	Here is the "mistake".


"When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the nearly dead
survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the tales that
they poured out were not limited to the horrors they had endured.
These called for no review. There was no lack of physical evidence on
display, the suffocated bodies in recently arrived cattle cars, the
abandoned instruments of torture and death, the files and records that
the Germans had so carefully maintained. It was the repeated tales of
senseless cruelty that increased the Russian fury; mothers obliged to
carry their infants to their deaths ...; the woman on her way to the
gas chamber, goaded to desperation by a taunting SS man, who threw
herself upon him, and was then tortured by his comrades to emphasize
the cost of remonstrance. The prisoners remembered the little boy who
consoled his weeping parents on the edge of their mass grave with the
assurance that the Russians would avenge them. They did so, wasting no
time on due process." (Sachar, 34-35)

                            Work Cited

Sachar, Abram L. The Redemption of the Unwanted. 
   New York: St. Martin's/Marek, 1983.


	The basic "mistake" part of it all would be that the writer
claimed the camp was still in operation. Of course the fiction writer
also includes a righteous dose of 'details'. Since the passage goes on
to spurt an array of other things, we can assume they were all a
"mistake" also. Some of the other "mistakes" would be, "There was no
lack of physical evidence on display, the suffocated bodies in
recently arrived cattle cars, the abandoned instruments of torture and
death, the files and records that the Germans had so carefully
maintained.  It was the repeated tales of senseless cruelty that
increased the Russian fury; mothers obliged to carry their infants to
their deaths ...; the woman on her way to the gas chamber, goaded to
desperation by a taunting SS man, who threw herself upon him, and was
then tortured by his comrades to emphasize the cost of remonstrance.
The prisoners remembered the little boy who consoled his weeping
parents on the edge of their mass grave ..."
 

	I take special notice of where the writer fulfills his fantasies
about the Russians "...wasting no time on due process." 

	When it comes to the Holocaust story, "due process" has it's own
meaning. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 10:41:04 PST 1996
Article: 85984 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.rns.net!maggie.ionsys.com!newspeak.ultratech.net!!news1.bellglobal.com!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!news.azstarnet.com!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: We want the $wi$$ - regardless
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:50:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	"Swiss Promise a 'Sweeping Study' Into Jewish Victims' Money"
                    N.Y.Times, Dec. 12, 1996

	"In an attempt to calm Switzerland's first major dispute with the
United States in half a century, a Swiss official said today that his
country was now fully committed to tracking down and returning any
assets of Holocaust victims 'still being wrongfully held' in its
banks."

*	So once again the United States is having a dispute with another
nation brought on by Jewish intrigue. The quote '"still being
wrongfully held"' could have been ended with 'if any' but we won't
know. 

	"At an emotionally charged hearing before members of Congress
..."

*	This would be the huff and puff foot stompin self righteous show
of out raged indignation of the likes of World Jewish Congress.

	"Just hours before he testified, the Swiss Parliament approved
... a 'sweeping study' ...
	To ease the way for investigators, the decree orders Swiss banks
to lift the usual secrecy ...
	Nonetheless, both Democrats and Republicans questioning Mr. Borer
and Gerog Krayer ... expressed considerable skepticism ..."

*	Of course when it comes to Jewish causes, this is the only time
we will see such agreement between parties.

	"...
	In private, however, both Swiss and American officials say that
while several investigations are now under way -- aided by the
declassification of two tons of American documents that have sat at
the National Archives, the Treasury and the State Dept. for half a
century -- it is unlikely that any of them will reveal many hidden
assets still in Switzerland."

*	That's the bottom line, as it has been all along with the
extortion scheme.

	Regardless of all this, it is stated that the blow hard, foot
stompin, self righteous Edgar Bronfman urged Switzerland to set up a
"interim fund" and to have it start to pay out to Jews anyway. An
article in the L.A.Times on the same subject put the figure at
$250,000,000.  

	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 12:04:42 PST 1996
Article: 86008 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!amberjack.netrunner.net!news2.agis.net!agis!newspeer1.agis.net!agis!news1.exit109.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mindspring!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Bagels
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:49:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <32c31da4.7740580@199.0.216.204>
References: <589jpd$9pr@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <58bq78$id@juliana.sprynet.com> <58reu2$6sm$2@gruvel.une.edu.au> <32b68e40.59853581@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <58ujha$q71@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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>In article <32b68e40.59853581@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, 
>John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>4 kilogrammes of New York bagels,
>>>3 kilogrammes of smoked Atlantic salmon,
>>>16 loaves of seeded rye,
>>>4 kilogrammes of solet,
>>>1 bottle of manischewitz white wine,
>>>3 virgin Christians for ritual slaughter
>>>2 tickets to Spielberg's latest film.
>
>>Cream cheese. You forgot the cream cheese again. The really soft kind.
>>Not that "Philadelphia" crap.
>
>New York bagels? No way, Jose. Gryfe bagels, Toronto... don't try
>slipping (schlepping?) in those Montreal hockey pucks, either.
>
>>And *3* kilos of smoked salmon?! I knew ZOG had money, but *3* kilos!?
>
>This is Canada, old son... we sell by the ton.

>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org

	Brought to you by Nizkor, the synagogue's Holocaust promotional
website and Mr.Morris, eminent professor.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 14:10:38 PST 1996
Article: 86020 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka mass graves
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:35:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <32c01a90.6952626@199.0.216.204>
References: <579q7e$c8d@Vir.com> <32b1e4a1.2136582@199.0.216.204>  <32c01bc5.4850316@199.0.216.204> <58tr6u$sjl@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> 
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>On 14 Dec 1996, Brian Harmon wrote:
>
>> In article <32c01bc5.4850316@199.0.216.204>,
>> tom moran  wrote:
>> [..]
>> 
>> >	Saying he made a mistake, confusing Treblinka with Majdanek or
>> >Auschwitz, Treblinka having near nothing and the other two being major
>> >camps, is idiotic. Beyond idiotic - chutzpah.
>> >	He made it up. He fabricated it.  
>> 
>> Tom Moran has decreed:  All errors are deliberate
>> fabrications.
>> 
>> Like the time you insisted that Israel's reforestation program
>> was impossible because your 'math' argued that they hadn't
>> the available acreage?
>> 
>>  By your decree, when your calculations were exposed as 
>>  dead wrong, you didn't make a mistake, you simply made 
>>  it all up.
>
>I wonder if that's anything like Mr. Moran's little errors about the
>"secular menorah" or how _Schindler's List_ was a bomb.  It's clear to me
>that Mr. Moran's claims on those two topics were a mix of error AND
>deliberate falsification... 

	"Schindler's List" was a flop. A bomb. Splat.

	What "errors" about "secular menorah" Mr.Kelley does not say.

	What relevance his little diversion has to "Treblinka mass
graves" he doesn't say either.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>   
>"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
>When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
>			--Dom Helder Camara
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 16 14:10:39 PST 1996
Article: 86031 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!amberjack.netrunner.net!news2.agis.net!agis!newspeer1.agis.net!agis!news1.exit109.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 16:29:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <32c426e1.10106364@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <19961212201400.PAA12858@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>Tutu101  wrote:
>>Why does the mythical character Rajiv Gandhi always rely on epithets to
>>attempt to prove his point?  Mr. Giwer is a "drunk",
>>"criminal"....Bellinger  is a "liar", "troll"...Tom Moran is a
>>"moron".....I think we get the picture of what you are, o great champion
>>of the truth.  By the way, when did you decide to adopt the name of an
>>assassinated Prime Minister of India as your "handle"?
>
>    Probably about the time my friend John Smith decided to adopt the name
>of a famous Englishman of the colonial era as his handle.  Or maybe it was
>about the time my friend Andy Johnson decided to adopt the name of Abraham
>Lincoln's successor as his handle.  Then again, it might have been as long
>ago as the time my friend John Jones took as his nickname the name of an
>illustrious American naval officer, or as recently as the time my friend
>Susan Smith decided to call herself by the name of an infamous child
>murderer. 
>
>    Here's a clue if you and Mr. Giwer are still having a problem with
>this: if you live in a large metropolitan area, check out your local
>telephone directory for the name "Gandhi" and see how many listings you
>find.  It shouldn't take a 163 IQ to figure it out.

	Which proves nothing about "Gandhi". Going by his writing style,
"Gandhi" is obviously a Jew. 


>    Posted/emailed to the mythical Tutu101 - I don't find _anyone_ with
>that last name in any of the DC-area phone books.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 17 18:39:55 PST 1996
Article: 86310 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Heads Up L'il Tommy
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:28:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 170
Message-ID: <32bd18c8.6496913@199.0.216.204>
References: <199612032349.PAA24815@mailmasher.com>  <32ac52dd.38183530@news.gte.net> <32ADE9FB.34D8@trib.infi.net> <58mj4a$eon@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32b209af.220743@199.0.216.204> <32b30b9e.1039630@news.uniserve.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:39250 alt.politics.white-power:52349 alt.revisionism:86310


The Best of Nizkor; 

The best of Hilary Ostrov 
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
      			-----------

	Hilary is one of the Holocaust defenders best commentators. Her
stuff represents the best quality postings out here by those who are
Holocaust dependent.
	     		-----------

                 The Best of Nizkor

Example No.1, and then so on.

"Actually Tommie, there was a ZOG meeting that day, and all the
Nizkorites - including Mr. McVay - decided that in the interest of
conserving bandwidth (and not seeing any sign that you have mastered
the art of taming your rigii and noticing that you and Mr. Giwer are
becoming increasingly indistinguishable, so that - as in this
particular post - you appear to be talking only to yourself) we're
just going to ignore you.

However, since Mr. Katz was not able to attend the meeting, and hadn't
read our new secret protocols of responding to Tommie, he did respond.
And his response does bear repeating:"
                           ==============

"Poor Mr. Moran!  His rigii reading must be in a complete fog, and his
legal pad in total disarray."
                           ==============

"Let me explain what an "archive file" is, Mr. Moran.  On second
thoughts, no I won't.  You seem to need the practice using a
dictionary.  So look it up.  Perhaps then you will understand the
^^^^[1] reference above.

And if you ever succeeded in mastering the lessons I posted for you on
how to use your newsreader to copy an URL, you might want to make note
of the following which will make it very easy for you not to lose
track of your trail of lies in the future:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom"
                           ================

"Mr. Eideken, I believe we may be doing Mr. Moran (and perhaps his
alter-ego/echo-clone, Mr. Giwer) a grave disservice.  As the above
clearly indicates, Mr. Moran finds it exceedingly difficult to give
credence to the possibility that you might have visited a library
(perhaps because he himself has never spent any productive time in a
library).  The poor man keeps pleading for PHOTOS.
Btw, see if you can get the librarian to include a few PHOTOS of
"books" - as well as some simple instructions on how to read them."
                             ===============

"**Your new, improved ZOG decoder ring is en route and contains your
secret password for the code to decipher the password for access to
http://www.topsecret.zog.com/ where you will find his latest address. 

Posted and secretly e-mailed to Mr. Eideken"
                             ===============

"Actually, Mr. Van Alstine, as you and others have so cogently
demonstrated, Mr. Giwer *doesn't* have a leg to stand on.  Perhaps it
is time to create a new newsgroup where he and Mr. Moran can continue
to delude themselves: 

alt.PAR-from-the-PRIG (Pompous Arrogant Redundancy from the
Pontificating Ridiculously Ignorant Giwer)"
                             ================

"Please Mr. Moran, can you be a little more inspiring; so that maybe
Mr. Morris will post some more delicious recipes ... they have been
the most enlightening consequence of your posts in the past :>)"
                             ================

"Now Mr. Moran has shown that he can post a complete sentence without
a spelling error (although he has yet to master syntax and grammar),
perhaps he will learn how to go to a library (or a bookstore), read a
reference book and do his own homework."
                             ================

"Perhaps Mr. Moran's "powder" or that "monkey on his back" has
affected is recall of how to copy an URL from his NewsReader to his
Web browser.  The following excerpted repost is presented as a public
service:" 
                             ================

"From: A Lesson for Mr. Moran (Was Re: Where are the URLs?) - posted
to
alt.revisionism Dec. 1/95

	[To further assist Mr. Moran, I have amended the *explicits* to
inimize his confusion.  The amendments are indented and contained
within square brackets, just like this comment.]"
                             ===============

"Poor Li'l Tommy.  Looks like he's succumbed to Giwerundic paupacy.
Must be one of the tortable side effects of "freudian pasting"."
                           ===============

"Good advice to the "revisionists", though, Tommy.  But past
experience suggests that they are too hooked on their lies to be
*able* to refrain from the practice of "revisionism"."
                           ===============

Well, nice try Mr. McCarthy, but it doesn't seem to have helped.
You know for a while I thought I saw some signs of progress.  But now
it seems that Mr. Moran's progress is in remission (or maybe that
should be retransmission ... he's run this little gambit before,
hasn't he?!)  

I'll leave his brilliant little response attached.  It is somewhat
amusing in a way.  What _is_ this JDL declaration bit?! Doesn't he
think we have enough to do with Nizkor pages?!  Sheesh, he must think
we go all over the net creating pages for other people! 

He claims that Nizkor is engaging in "inverted suggestion."   I don't
think any of the web pages are upside down are they?  Or maybe he
thinks that because there is a *mirror* site on *eye.net* that there
must be an optical illusion somewhere - and he's just taken a stab in
the dark.  And he thinks our disclaimer is "tacit"!  Sheesh, you'd
think by now, he of all people would recognize an "explicit" when he
saw one!
                     ===================

TRANSLATION: Even though I do not have a shred of evidence to support
my ludicrous claims and "disbeliefs", I'm going to whine and complain
because people keep demanding that I provide proof of the claims I
make in my hate-filled fact-bereft anti-Semitic drivellous diatribes.
                     ====================

Mr. Thomas, I believe the appropriate expression here is
pot.kettle.black  

If the reader is somewhat puzzled by my so-called "personal attack", I
do believe that all will be quickly clarified - and indeed confirmed -
by a perusal of the extensive postings of Mr. Moran which can be found
at:
                     ===================

Hmmm ... so you believe this is a legitimate "term" and _not_ the
equivalent of name calling in the absence of any substantive facts.

I think we may have a very strong difference of opinion here, Mr.
Thomas.  Heavens, next thing I know you will be suggesting that I have
been engaging in tortable paupacies!
                    ====================

TRANSLATION: Even though I do not have a shred of evidence to support
my ludicrous claims and "disbeliefs", I'm going to whine and complain
because people keep demanding that I provide proof of the claims I
make in my hate-filled fact-bereft anti-Semitic drivellous diatribes.
                    ====================

Definitely _not_ on _Saturday_ morning, Mr. Kelley!  And if the
Lubavitch Hassidim were in  and they knocked on your
door on Sunday morning (or any other morning - or any part of any
other day, for that matter), they would do so _only_ if they saw a
mezuzzah on your doorpost.
                    ====================

Ah, I see that everyone's favourite "denier in search of a persona"
has now taken upon himself (in an indisputably "Testimentary" fashion)
the mantle of Doctor of Divinity.
                    ====================





From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 18 08:19:21 PST 1996
Article: 86375 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:09:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <32bf73b3.5855114@199.0.216.204>
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>>>Dear Readers, 
>>>
>>>Our interdisciplinary team has developed a unit on Tolerance and the
>>>Holocaust entitled "The Beast Within." The web page that grew from this
>>>unit has been on our website for the past year at
>>>http://www.fred.net/nhhs/html/beast.htm.
>
>
>>          [ "The world must/should/needs to know ..." ]
>
>	I would ask the instructor, George Cassutto Teacher of Social
>Studies North Hagerstown High School (MD) if he would do a survey of
>his students and see what they think about the simple question -
>
>	Does the world have the right to question existing historical
>accounts?

	My second question would be to inquire if any of the students are
aware that many things that were once claimed about this Holocaust are
now recognized as being untrue?



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 19 05:54:24 PST 1996
Article: 86640 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ordinary v Mainstream Auschwitz 4,000,000 Deniers - Revised
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 04:11:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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=================================================================
Mr.Browosky:
 
>The _LA_Times_ story could use qualifications, but it does not
>anywhere claim that the 4 million victims of Auschwitz were
>all Jews.  Here are the paragraphs that probably got your
>attention (_LA_Times_, Wednesday, 7/30/96, front page)
> 
>    "Humanity was disgraced here by more than 4 million
>     systematic murders, victims marched to the gas
>     chambers for being born of parentage unacceptable
>     to the Third Reich.
> 
>    "Now it is silent, but there is still a stench in the
>     squat brick barracks where Jews from all over Europe
>     were processed and tortured, awaiting death."
> 
>      (paragraphs 5 & 6)

	Mr. Browosky states, "but it does not anywhere claim that the 4
million victims of Auschwitz were all Jews" but it certainly cites
Jews and no one else. And then everyone in the world knows when the
Holocaust is spoken of, it means Jewish victims. 

>The writer clearly claims four million, which he does probably on the
>basis of the placque the Polish Communist raised at Auschwitz.  But as
>others on this newsgroup have repeated, this figure had already been
>challenged by serious historians as early as the 1960s.

	Mr.Browosky states, "this figure had already been challenged by
serious historians as early as the 1960s", but then this of course
would be the exception and not the rule. The facts are, a actual
record is posted from time to time shows the rule and Mr.Browosky and
the rest of the Holocaust dependents just claim it ain't so. The
record stands at about 30 to 1. Thirty examples for the higher Jewish
numbers and one example (Reitlinger) for the lower. If all examples
were known it would be more like 100s to 1 or 2.

	
>Also, as Holocaust scholarship indicates, some victims were also "marched to
>the gas chambers" for reasons other "being born of parentage unacceptable
>to the Third Reich."  Communists and gays, for example, were single out for
>persecution.

	As we read about the Holocaust we can clearly see that the story
is 99.9999% Jewish. Jewish, Jewish, 99.9999% Jewish.
 
>And, by the sloppy way the article was written, you _could_infer_ that
>in fact all victims were Jewish, and yet no such claim was explicitly made.
 
>The writer wrote carelessly, but then, you posted carelessly.
 
>Compare the way the _Washington_Post_ article was written, which put
>the four million claim forward only as something written on the placque
>itself. The writers aren't vouching for its accuracy or for the Polish
>Communist government that installed it.  And this, after all, is what
>good journalists do.

	Here we see the standard disclaimer attempt, 'the commies did
it'. Was it the commies that initiated the rumors? Was it and is it
the commies who are perpetuating the tale? The overwhelming record
shows the answers to be 'No'.
 
>Why don't you make a scrapbook of the event, with reports from all
>major newspapers and then present it to the group as your own project?
>It's fun and it's something you could do on your own.  Good luck.
> 
>>Houston Post reported that 3,000,000 were Jews.
> 
>I cannot find the Houston Post (at least for 1975) at my library.
>Someone may wish to find and post it.
> 
> 
>--Bruce Borowsky



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 19 05:54:25 PST 1996
Article: 86684 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Some Holocaust Facts
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 15:25:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                             [repost]

	Anywhere from 600,000 to 4 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

	The total number of people to have been exterminated by the Nazis
during the WWII period is 10 million, 11 million or 12 million.

	Although none have been found and identified, there are at least
15 mass grave sites where at least 10 thousand people and up to 40,000
and on to 2,000,000 were buried and/or cremated in each one.

	Regardless of whether or not the 46 identified incinerator
chambers at Auschwitz have barely the volume of a refrigerator, 200
people a day could be cremated in each one.

	Even though it takes modern day cremation facilities to cremate
one (1) body 1 1/2 to 2 hours, cremation ovens at Majdanek could
reduce four (4) bodies to charred bbone in ten minutes. 

	Sometimes the whole process was kept in secret, sometimes it
wasn't.

	There were 700,000, 800,000 or 900,000 Jews in Hungary before the
war. Somewhere between 200,000 and 400,000 were exterminated at
Auschwitz.

	Even though it was once said there were 700,000 Jews in France
before the war and the figure is now put at 70,000, the number of Jews
said to have been in Hungary and also found on the same list as the
700,000 French, the figure for the Hungarian Jews still stands.  

	Any eye witness accounts and testimony for the Holocaust story
supercede any against it.

	Any discrepancies or contradictions found in eyewitness
testimonies should not be looked on with suspicion. 

	Questioning the Holocaust story is an act of hate and those do
are "neo-Nazis" and "anti-Semitic".  

	Even though many revisions to the Holocaust story have taken
place, with many of the old accounts being generally recognized as
lies, any surviving accounts are to be accepted unconditionally.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 19 07:46:47 PST 1996
Article: 86721 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Certain Perspective
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 15:25:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Six million Jews killed?

If we could line up that many people in rows, toe to heal and ten
across, the whole line would be about a hundred miles long.

If you started at one end in a car and drove along side these ten rows
at 60 miles an hour, it would take you about an hour and a half before
you got to the other end.

Think about that the next time you take a spin.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 20 07:03:00 PST 1996
Article: 86938 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT I BELIEVE
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 01:11:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <32c5e76c.39700558@199.0.216.204>
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>CODOH is on-line at http://www.codoh.com
>
>
>WHAT I BELIEVE, WHAT I DON'T, AND WHY 
>By Bradley R. Smith

>I'm not willing to go away, however. I don't know why, but I'm
>not willing.

	Its called 'honor'. Some people have it. Some don't.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 20 07:03:01 PST 1996
Article: 86997 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Away with the Christmas tree in with the Star of David
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:35:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 86
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	   "Christmas Tree Surprise Quickly Wilts at School"
                    L.A.Times, Dec.20, 1996 

Holiday: Manhattan Beach 
classroom's decoration, 
set up by pupil's mother, 
is dismantled after Jewish 
parents object. In the end, 
nobody is merry about the 
culturally complicated incident.

	Oh Christmas tree, oh Christmas tree, how quickly we see you
disappear. Second graders at a Manhattan Beach elementary school
showed up Monday and found a fully decorated 7-foot artificial
Christmas tree inside their classroom, courtesy of one of the
students' mothers.

	A nice gift the mother had thought, to surprise the children. But
many of the students in this Pennekamp Elementary School classroom, as
well as the teacher, are Jewish.

	So about two hours later, the principal [Dale Keldrauk] was
dismantling the tree, branch by branch, after some Jewish parents
objected.

	Manhattan Beach school administrators are learning what other
Southland educators have discovered: Celebrating the holidays has
become and intricate juggling act in recent years with such a diverse
ethnic and religious mix in the schools.

	... [The principal said he thought it was for the good of the
class.]

	Instead, it sparked one of those incidents that everyone wishes
had just never happened.

	The principal had just transferred from another elementary school
and didn't realize that at least 25% of the Manhattan Beach student
body is Jewish.
	
	Neither did Janna Catalina, the parent ...

	And now the tree dispute has reached beyond the school and into
the community. Rabbi Steven Silver ... said he had at least 15 calls
Thursday asking why he is the Grinch who stole the Christmas tree.
Many of the parents at Pennekamp attend this synagogue.

	'We're receiving some very unhappy phone calls,' he said. 'I
think what it really dramatizes is how little we really understand
about each other.'

	Silver has tried to explain that a Christmas tree is just as much
a symbol of Christ's birth as a Nativity scene. 'For Jewish people,
these kinds of things make people feel marginalized. These are not our
symbols', he said. But he believes that Christmas trees can be in
classrooms because they are an American symbol. He just wants people
to know what Christmas trees mean to Jewish people and what they give
up.

	...[Ms.Catalina said she thought she was doing a good thing.]

	... Keldrauk suggested that the fashion a Star of David out of a
silver garland and put it on the wall, which they did. 

	On Sunday, the principal called PTA President Tracy Wines ...She
immediately suggested taking the tree down. ...

	However, the parents' adverse reaction Monday was overwhelming.
	
	[The school called for Catalina to come and take the tree down.
She couldn't because she was at work, so the principal did it.]

	'This is a single isolated incident that I feel has gotten blown
out of proportion', Keldrauk said.

	Some parents were pleased. Others were disappointed.

	'It upsets me', said Donna Morreau, whose seven year old daughter
Kayla is in the class. 'It's, What's next?

	   

	 

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 20 09:36:40 PST 1996
Article: 87011 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: L.A.Times headlines, one thing, the copy another
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 16:50:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	   "GOP Lawmakers Support Israel's Security Policy"
                      L.A.Times, Dec.20, 1996

 	"GOP Law Makers ..." Who? Two. Jesse Helms and Benjamin Gilman.

	"...Israel's Security Policy"? Settlements.

	  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 20 22:01:23 PST 1996
Article: 87103 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 13:21:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 3
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	I wonder if Mr.Cassutto has ever mentioned alt.revisionism to his
students?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:44 PST 1996
Article: 87129 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Away with the Christmas tree in with the Star of David
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:41:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 98
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A few comments.
     ===============

	"A nice gift the mother had thought, to surprise the children.
But many of the students in this Pennekamp Elementary School
classroom, as well as the teacher, are Jewish."

	["Many" meaning 25%]

	"So about two hours later, the principal [Dale Keldrauk] was
dismantling the tree, branch by branch, after some Jewish parents
objected."

	The furry was so loud, it took only two hours]

	"Manhattan Beach school administrators are learning what other
Southland educators have discovered: Celebrating the holidays has
become and intricate juggling act in recent years with such a diverse
ethnic and religious mix in the schools."

	[They are learning what has become a Jewish tradition, expressed
and repeated numerous times over he last 6 years across the country.]

	"Instead, it sparked one of those incidents that everyone wishes
had just never happened."

	[This is exactly what was intended. Harassment.]

	"The principal had just transferred from another elementary
school and didn't realize that at least 25% of the Manhattan Beach
student body is Jewish."

	[Jewish percentage didn't seem to fit in with an incident in New
Hampshire two years ago where a Jewish girl demanded that a group
singing Christmas Carols in the hall ways of the school cease. In that
school 15 of the students were Jewish out of a school population of
2500.]

	"And now the tree dispute has reached beyond the school and into
the community. Rabbi Steven Silver ... said he had at least 15 calls
Thursday asking why he is the Grinch who stole the Christmas tree.
Many of the parents at Pennekamp attend this synagogue."

	[Rabbis. Their right there leading the Jewish pack.]

	"'We're receiving some very unhappy phone calls,' he said. 'I
think what it really dramatizes is how little we really understand
about each other.'"

	[Interesting way of putting it.]

	"Silver has tried to explain that a Christmas tree is just as
much a symbol of Christ's birth as a Nativity scene. 'For Jewish
people, these kinds of things make people feel marginalized. These are
not our symbols', he said. But he believes that Christmas trees can be
in classrooms because they are an American symbol. He just wants
people to know what Christmas trees mean to Jewish people and what
they give up."

	[Nevertheless, the tree is gone and ...]

		"... Keldrauk suggested that the fashion a Star of David out
of a silver garland and put it on the wall, which they did. "

	[... the Star of David is up and blazing on the walls.]

	"On Sunday, the principal called PTA President Tracy Wines ...She
immediately suggested taking the tree down. ..."

	["Tracy Wines"?]

	"However, the parents' adverse reaction Monday was overwhelming."

	[Jewish parents.]
		
	"'This is a single isolated incident that I feel has gotten blown
out of proportion', Keldrauk said."

	[This is a lie, or the principal is ignorant. This is just
another episode of Jews trying to stamp out other's symbols while
instilling their own.] 

	"Some parents were pleased. Others were disappointed."

	[Doesn't say any more. Jews were pleased, the rest were not.]

	"'It upsets me', said Donna Moreau, whose seven year old daughter
Kayla s in the class. 'It's, What's next?"

	[What's next? Leaving the Star of David up on the walls year
round we might think. After all what's going to happen after the 'Tis
the season for Jewish yes, Christian no'? Are they going to leave the
Star of David up? Who is going to say to take it down? Not a Jew. And
certainly not a goy, this would be "anti-Semitic".]	   

	 

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:45 PST 1996
Article: 87130 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Christian Revisionism Okay but for the Holocaust it's "Hate"
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:18:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 49
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	For the last two years there has been considerable commentary
appearing in main stream medias such as the L.A.Times, N.Y.Times,
Newsweek and Time Magazines on the validity of the most central points
of Christianity.

	Did Christ do this - did Christ really do that? Was Christ really
the son of god?

	I don't know if there have been scores of websites out here, or
hundreds of newspaper articles, letters to the editors, columns, full
page ads and books condemning this growing revisionist trend towards
Christianity as hateful, but I do know there have been all these media
formats used extensively to denounce any and all who question the
Holocaust as purveyors of "HATE" who are "NEO-NAZIS" and "RACIST" 

	Often accompanying or included in the extensive obvious
conspiracy to brand Holocaust revisionist as racist, neo-Nazi haters
are calls for special censorship against Holocaust revisionism.

	Little groups running here and there, 'stamping down their feet'
in demonstration of righteousness, mass phone call campaigns and bomb
threats is how those who are so dependent on the Holocaust story go
about it.

	"Hate", Hate", Hate" is their battle cry.


	Christian revisionism is something that questions that which is
dear to the hearts of hundreds of millions, something fundamentally,
inheritably central to human beings, religion.

	Holocaust revisionism questions the accuracy of a historical
event.

	The Christians seem to be able to take it with a certain grace. 

	For those who are dependent on the Holocaust story, it's "Hate",
"neo-Nazi", "Racist" - "anti-Semitism".
 	 	 	       
	There is something really different between reactions.
	
	Something disproportionate.
     
	Something quite unaesthetic.

	Something ugly.

	Something weak.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:45 PST 1996
Article: 87131 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:15:48 GMT
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		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		

















quatchen


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:46 PST 1996
Article: 87132 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ordinary v. Mainstream Auschwitz 4,000,000 Deniers
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:53:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Ordinary v. Mainstream Auschwitz 4,000,000 Deniers
>
>A few MAINSTREAM  Facts:
>
>Joy Hakim s new revised History of US, Oxford University Press
>c1995 states that 3,000,000 Jews were murdered at Auschwitz.
>
>Deborah Lipstadt, mainstream Holocaust historian, certified the
>Auschwitz 4,000,000 extermination figure in  Beyond Belief .
>
>Pres. Ford s visit to pay homage to the 4,000,000 exterminated at
>Auschwitz was widely reported in the U.S. media (July 30,1995)
>
>L.A. Times reported that all 4,000,000 were Jews.
>Houston Post reported that 3,000,000 were Jews.

	Waspnot, thanks for additional examples that shows any claim that
the old Asuchwitz number was never figured into 6,000,000 number to be
a lie. I'll add it to the 30 or so other examples I have.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:47 PST 1996
Article: 87133 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ADL "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:17:35 GMT
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	Letter to the Editor,  L.A. Times,  Nov. 21, 1991

                   "Censorship and Computers"

	"The Anti-Defamation League questioned Prodigy Consumer Network's
interpretation and application of it't self imposed guidelines for
determining the appropriateness of messages posted on it't bulletin
boards.  I did not, contrary to Dershowitz's assertion, demand that
Prodigy '"censor"' anti-Semitic messages. The ADL, counts itself among
the staunchest friends of free speech. The questions raised by
Dershowitz as to whether computer services should impose such
guidelines is not the point. In light of the fact that Prodigy has
guidelines, we brought to their attention complaints we received about
certain messages that appeared on Prodigy bulletin boards, including
messages claiming the Holocaust is a hoax. Prodigy concluded these
messages were not offensive. We disagree. Even Dershowitz disagrees.
	Dershowitz is wrong to claim that ADL's actions '"aggravated the
problem."'  As the '"watchdog of the Jewish Community against
anti-Semitism"', we believe it is better to expose institutional
racism and anti-Semitism, if it exist, than to pretend it does not.
ADL did not '"mainstream"' the bigotry, it exposed it.
	The conflict is between freedom of speech and the right not to be
offended. Constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe, of Harvard, has
stated his belief that, with regard to computerized communications,
the issues involved are not adequately addressed by our legal system.
However, since Prodigy has promulgated guidelines and taken the
responsibility for drawing lines and making judgement calls as to what
is and is not offensive, we and their subscribers have every right to
question their decisions without being labeled promoters of
censorship."
                                                 TZIVIA SHWARTZ
                                   Western States Associate Counsel
                              Anti- Defamation League, Los Angeles

	What a crock of crap. '...among the staunchest friends of freedom
of speech", "...complaints they received..."  The only example they
put in here as to these complaints concerns Holocaust denial. Their
own interests. They are in denial by stating they did not "demand"
Prodigy '"censor"' '"anti-Semitic"' messages and then raising it as a
legitimate topic for Constitutional revisionism. 
	"The conflict is between freedom of speech and the right not to
be offended."  All those Palestinians, Arabs of other nations, Muslims
and Catholics have the right not to be offended, yet this ADL has
leveled all sorts of vile accusations against them and they don't go
crying for special interpretations and application of our free speech
clause. In true ADL form, they cite a "Constitutional law professor
... from Harvard" as a selling point for their view. One man? Some
weak minded academite. "Even Dershowitz disagrees"? Dershowitz plays
himself as a champion of freedom of speech so he can play that even
Holocaust denial is objectionable enough to warrant censorship. This
is the good cop bad cop practice that so often accompanies the
writings of this faction. I would suggest a full vote before the whole
United States as to what should or should not be censored on the
Internet. How's that for democratic procedure? Why leave it up to weak
people in position to submit to the standards of those who sleaze
around to have our Constitution be specialized for their particular
cause.  
	The ADL and associated organizations have their concept of what
they think is offensive, and get their complaints in wherever they
want, but in the end they're the ones who have the big history of
offensiveness against whole nations, whole peoples, whole religions,
and they express it with regularity right in our faces, right in our
public medias, galore.
	Right here in their own directive, REVISIONISM IS ANTI-SEMITISM.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:48 PST 1996
Article: 87135 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MENACING TROLL FLAUNTS FAILURE AGAIN
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:53:30 GMT
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>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) writes:
>
>>But as long as you, your handlers and your admirers continue to
>>recycle the distortions and lies you mistakenly call "revisionism,"
>>you will have to learn to live with the certain knowledge that your
>>wastes of bandwidth will be countered by facts.
>>
>
>That's an important distinction to keep in mind.  There is real
>revisionist history going on on a lot of subjects -- the Holocaust
>included -- being conducted by real historians using real methods.  
>
>One of the actual controversies is explored in Daniel Goldhagen's 
>
>Hitler's Willing Executioners
>Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust
>(Alfred A. Knopf, $30; ISBN 0-679-44695-8)
>
>To quote from a particularly good review:  
>
>"The heart of Goldhagen's 'radical revision' is 'fundamentally
>reconceiving three subjects: the perpetrators of the Holocaust, German
>antisemitism, and the nature of German society during the Nazi
>period.'
>
>"In this new study, he presents extensive primary material, including
>much testimony from the perpetrators themselves...
>
>"This extraordinary work of careful scholarship is profoundly
>enlightening and profoundly disturbing. Goldhagen's book should be
>essential reading for anyone who wants to better understand the
>Holocaust."
=======================================================================
>I can't imagine that, bestseller though it is, it'll be carried at the
>CODOH bookstore, or would be terribly popular there if it was.  

	Mr.Rosenberg, do don't know if any of the book stores in any of
the many Holocaust museums carry any revisionists books, do you? You
know, books like "Air Photo Evidence"? How about The Simon Wiesenthal
Page?




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:48 PST 1996
Article: 87136 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Fear of Air Photo Evidence?
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 15:20:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) writes:
>
># The salient fact is Cole's Jewishness.   Allegedly
># revisionism is anti-semitic.
>
>kurtzi, there are a few million Jews in the world. Some
>of them are very stupid. Some of them are very crazy. It's
>a simple statistical fact, true for any population of that
>size.
>
>So, there is one Jew, David Cole, a 26-year-old highschool
>dropout, who is (or, I believe, was) a "revisionist". This
>does not prove anything. It's a sensation of sorts - and
>I'm convinced that's one of the reason that Cole became
>a "revisionist" - but it really means nothing. Even if
>you had a hundred David Cole's, that's still one hundred
>out of millions. It simply means nothing.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	I always get a kick out of people making a point that someone
Jewish has come out against Jewish causes. This is because everyone
realizes how hard headed all things Jewish Jews are.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:49 PST 1996
Article: 87142 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:17:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                              [repost]
	                    
                             New York Times
                             Jan. 10, 1996

                      "Jewish Rights Group Urges Ban
                     Of All Hate Messages on Internet"

	"Citing '"the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups
on the Internet,"' a leading Jewish human rights group yesterday began
sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and
universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that '"promote
racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence"'.
	The letter from the Simon Weisenthal Center, a 425,000-member
organization ... is the latest in a growing effort by legislators and
private interest groups to censor offensive material ... which now
connects millions of computer users worldwide.
	'"Internet providers have a First Amendment right and a moral
obligation not to provide these groups a platform for their
destructive propaganda,"' Rabbi Abraham Cooper, .... wrote in the
letter ...
	Rabbi Cooper said the target of yesterday's call for '"ethical
rules of engagement on the Internet"' was not the many discussion
forums where individuals debate such topics as whether the Holocaust
actually occurred, but rather the Internets's World Wide Web, a
service that allows users to publish documents -- including text,
pictures  ... read by millions of people.
	Dozens of groups, from white supremist to anarchists, have
published documents on the Web about their points of view. Some are
revisionists histories and some are racist tracts denigrating blacks,
Jews ...
	Such hate speech is not illegal under Federal law and is
generally protected by First Amendment ... But efforts are growing to
restrict certain types of information ... Congress is debating ..."

	The article then goes to give us comments from various people who
defend the unrestricted Internet before returning to Rabbi Cooper who
said the '"unprecidented potential and scope of the Internet" gives
people '"incredible power to promote violence, threaten women,
denigrate minorities ..."'
	"He said letters would be sent to about 2000 Internet providers
and university presidents suggesting a voluntary code of ethics.
	The proposed code asks providers to pledge, '"We consider it our
civic duty to refuse or terminate service to any individual or group
to exploit our service to promote an agenda of hate and violence"'.

	A short recap of the of the Jewish "rights group" manifesto is
that the target of their agenda was not the many discussion forums
where individuals debate such topics as revisionism but the
"...groups, from white supremists to anarchists" who have published
"documents on the Web" ...  Some are revisionists histories ..." 
=====================================================================

	As to the Times reporter's stating the Jewish "rights group" is
the "latest" group in "a growing effort by legislators and private
interest groups ..." the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the only one named
exactly. No other group(s) were cited.
	Of course those legislators that are mentioned are the same ones
that will tell you that Zionist policies of shooting little kids is an
act of democracy, and who will muster up 93 Senatorial votes endorsing
Jeruselem as capitol of Israel and other major majority votes to 0,
while they can't agree on anything that would benefit the people of
the U.S.

	Above, again, a Jewish connection that revisionism and "hate" are
in the same category.

	Before any self imposed or legislative imposed restrictions are
made on the Internet, we should reqire that any proposers list exactly
what they see as example candidates for censorship, and be subject to
debate by the general citizens of the U.S. and the world. It can not
be left up to Jewish "rights groups" to set the parameters. Its
already a unwritten law that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic, and few if
any dare question any U.S. policies that even remotely connect to that
area of the world.

	The main problem with any kind of censorship is the precidences
it sets, which history shows can and will be used to expand them to
any level, far removed from the initial precedence.
	We can not allow ourselves to be controlled by fear and tyranny.
The truely intellectual way of dealing with any wacky malevolent
doctrines is to counter them with the pen, not by the methods of the
likes of the Simon Weisenthal Center. Their approach is a sign of
their failure and confidence of intellect to debate a issue and or
their condemnation of the American intellect. An act of contempt.     


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:50 PST 1996
Article: 87143 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The twelve year grace period
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:16:02 GMT
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              The Twelve Year Grace Period
             ==============================
		In with the new books, away with the old.

	              Random House Dictionary,
 "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".

========================================================================
		
	According to some accounts, the reason the previous numbers of
those said to have been exterminated at Auschwitz was 3 million higher
than the current 1 million is because the Soviets mis-calculated the
numbers of people that could be cremated in the ovens.

	How the Soviets went about this ciphering that resulted in a 300
percent over estimate is not detailed in Holocaust accounts.

	Another account of why the old number was so far off is because
of the intentional conniving on the part of the Poles and Soviets to
inflate Polish casualties so as to deflate Jewish causalities, or
something like that. (The full ride down the bumpy dirt road can be
found on the Simon Wiesenthal web page.)

	If we should accept either excuse, mis-calculation or intentional
lie, we are led to wonder about other things.

	First we would have to recognize that these are the official
Holocaust accounts and that they are the only ways they came up with
the 4 million number, in lieu of anything else.

	There are two other factors that played a role in Auschwitz
numerology. 

	One is by way of "eyewitness" accounts and the other is pre end
of war rumors that were going around with some of them being reported
in major medias.

	The eye witness accounts given immediately at the time of the
liberation of the camps were by a couple of Jewish inmates. The most
cited eyewitness authority for the numbers came from Rudolph Ho'ss
former Auschwitz camp commandant and still a star witness for the
Holocaust story who said there were up to 3 million people killed at
the camp. We have to recognize that since the current number is 2
million less than what the star Holocaust witness said, then either
the current number is wrong or the star witness was wrong, or lying.

	The other pre end of war accounts, which we may consider to be
the seed rumors that set the atmosphere for the subsequent gross
exaggerations, can be traced to those originating and spread from
Jewish organizations. 
	All kinds of numbers and methods were alleged, none of which,
understandably, is presented by the current Holocaust promotional
network at this time. We can recognize the Holocaust promotional
network not using these sources as their admission that their rumors
were not truths and would only tend to expose the absolute origin from
which the gross exaggerations emanated.

	So in a pure research sequence we have to recognize there are the
two basic claims as to why the number was 4 million in the first
place. The incredibly wayward Soviet mathematics as put forth by say,
Nizkor, "The 4 Million Variant" and their source for that, or the
intentional juggling by the Soviets and Poles as claimed by the Simon
Wiesenthal Center.

	Since either one of these is the basic statement on the old
Auschwitz number, we have to recognize there was nothing else, say as
an actual body count, records or forensic investigations from which to
deduce any numbers. 

	All this would suggest that whatever numbers they had then, and
were submitted to Nuremberg or any other trials, were founded on real
shaky grounds, but nevertheless offered as evidence to hang men. 

	Not until around 1980 did the numbers come to be what they
currently are. The new numbers are founded on the "interpretations" of
deportation records and rail manifests with the specific criteria
that no eyewitness accounts, commission reports or confessions by
Germans were to be trusted or used in the new figuring. Also
explicitly cited are any court records, which would include
Nuremberg's, which shows that they are recognized as lies.

	Is there anything 'funny' about this 'new' number, as it is
obvious there was with the old one? Well this would involve the
investigation of the records used and the consideration of any
interpreting logic. Will all this ever become available to researchers
who may have suspicions? We can only wait and see.

	The one thing we can conclude as to any shenanigans is that the
'new' numbers are not all that new. They are said to have been arrived
at, starting in 1980 and completed in 1986, showing that the
suspicions for the old numbers was recognized in 1980. Not until the
last three years or so did any formal announcement of the current
revised number take place, leaving a gap of about 12 years between the
time of arriving at the current number and the official announcement.
During this time the sign outside of the Auschwitz camp citing
4,000,000 people were exterminated was allowed to remain at 4,000,000.
Not only this, but the old number of 4 million was allowed to be cited
hundreds, if not thousands of times in the world's medias during this
12 year span without any parties knowledgable to the revision coming
forth to correct the rampant use of the old number.
	 
	So who would have known about the revisions?

	An easy resource to check is almost any public library. Here we
will find in the catalogs numerous books on the Holocaust, most of
which were written from 1980 on. In fact, it is very hard to find any
books on the Holocaust written before that time. Either we assume
there were no books on the Holocaust written before 1980 or that there
were and they have found their way off the shelves.

	We would have to consider the likely hood that any books written
before the massive revision to the Auschwitz numbers would have
accounts of numbers with the old 4,000,000 number as a part of the
whole accounting. Regardless of whether or not any of the previous
books are available, numerous documentation is available, as to
sources, that allege that a significant number of the old, now deleted
number of 4,000,000 were Jewish. In spite of what the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims, that the number of 6,000,000 Jews said to have been
killed during the war was never contingent on the old 4,000,000, the
documented facts, not readily available now in the libraries,
challenges this severely. The numerous older accounts can have it that
>from  2,000,000 to 4,000,000 of the victims at Auschwitz were Jews.
	Perhaps the only book that was written before 1980 that held to a
smaller number was one by Reitlinger, who cited a number close to the
current number. This book is referred to by the defenders of all
things true Holocaust in attempts at drawing attention away from the
20 or 30 other sources that cite significantly higher figures.  
	Six million is the standing figure as to the number of Jews said
to have been exterminated during WW II. This has pretty much been the
figure all along. We would have to recognize that any books written on
the Holocaust before or after 1980 must strive to give the full
account including other camps and any exterminations said to have
taken place in the 'field' so that the culminating figure is
6,000,000. If books are written that claim, say, 2,300,000, 3,000,000
or 3,500,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz, then any numbers given for
other places must be jostled around so that when it is all put
together the figure ends up at 6,000,000. Thus any books written using
the 1,000,000 figure must do their ciphering considering that, which
would throw them into serious conflict with the older accounts.

	So, in 1980 along comes the problem of the massive revision to
the Holocaust root number of Auschwitz, from 4,000,000 down to
1,000,000. Then, also starting around 1980 we have a whole onslaught
of new books that came out with most of them giving accounts that
agree with the new number. The new number that wasn't officially
released until 1993. 

	Is it a fantastic coincidence that the new Auschwitz numbers were
arrived at around 1980 and a whole slue of new books appeared around
the same time? 

	Was it just an oversight that kept the old number of 4,000,000 up
on the sign at Auschwitz and the new current number from being
released at that time it was arrived at?

	And who would have been privy to knowing about all this revision
at the time?

	Putting all the pieces together, it appears a righteous
accommodating grace period was given to the Jews so they would have
time to reorganize Holocaust accounts that would be more in line with
the new figures, and that is what is on the library shelves at this
time.

	A pathetically corrupt state of affairs.


========================================================================
	No wonder the Jews exert so much energy in trying to snuff out
open debate on the truth or falsity of the Holocaust, opting instead
to condemn the whole thing as an act of "hate", "racism", "neo-Nazism"
and/or "anti-Semitism". 
========================================================================


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:50 PST 1996
Article: 87145 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:16:39 GMT
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	"Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"? 
	
	Yup. This is one of the Jewish community's many absurd proposals.


	This would mean that objecting to the Zionist policy of shooting
down little kids with bullets for their throwing stones, uprooting
their daddies orchards, barring their daddies access to work, closing
their schools for years, holding them prisoners without due process,
torture, defying U.N. resolutions, breaking "peace" agreements,
rousting whole populations with bombs, blowing up refugee camps and
the myriad of other unaesthetic Zionist policies - ah yes, complaining
about this is an act of anti-Semitism.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:51 PST 1996
Article: 87149 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Flat Earth and the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 14:34:44 GMT
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>	
>	The only difference between those who so adamantly push the
>Holocaust story and the 'Flat Earth Society' is, that the latter
>doesn't go around trying to have it made a law demanding we have to
>believe it.

	There is that other major difference between those who belong to
the Flat Earth Society and those who pushy push the Holocaust story,
the Flat Earther's know it's a spoof. But then again, those who pushy
push the Holocaust story try awfully hard to keep it from being
questioned so there seems to be something with that.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:52 PST 1996
Article: 87161 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 15:42:55 GMT
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>Dear Readers, 
>
>Our interdisciplinary team has developed a unit on Tolerance and the
>Holocaust entitled "The Beast Within." The web page that grew from this
>unit has been on our website for the past year at
>http://www.fred.net/nhhs/html/beast.htm.


	Mr. George Cassutto, I checked out your website that you posted
notice to on alt.revisionism under, "The Holocaust: U.S. Students
React" and the very thing that became evident was the near identical
starting lines to each one, which I found very disturbing. I also
notice that your class was put through a "one-week interdisciplinary
unit".
	What I have done here, for starters, is to list the starting
lines to make the point, a point, that the near identical nature of
these lines is beyond coincidence.  	      


            Hagerstown Students React To The
           United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.


  "The following paragraphs are the reactions of students who visited
he United States Holocaust Museum on December 11, 1996. Their visit
was preceded by a one-week interdisciplinary unit on the Holocaust
entitled "The Beast Within. ..."
 Thank you.


          [ "The world must/should/needs to know ..." ]


The world must know about the Holocaust because it was the greatest
genocide to ever
K. W.

The world needs to know that the Holocaust really happened and we can
never let it happen again.
B. S.

The Holocaust is an important issue, and people need to know that it
did happen, because some people deny it.
N. B.

The world needs to know that the Holocaust was a horrible experience.
It should never happen again.
K. M.

The world should know that the Holocaust is the worst thing that ever
happened. It should never happen again.
V. M.

My views on the Holocaust is that it was a terible and gruesome event
in history. I think this because of the massacres of innocent people
just because Hitler and his Nazis had a
great deal of prejudice.
B. S.

I feel that the world should know about the Holocaust because it was
terrible. Adolf Hitler and his evil Nazi henchmen who destroyed the
lives of over twelve million people
D. M.

I think that the people in the world today need to know that the
Holocaust was a very horrible thing to happen to any human being of
any color, race of any kind. 
B. F.

I feel that the world must know the Holocaust was possibly the most
terrifying event in history for millions of people.
M. O'B.

I think the world should know about the Holocaust because it could
repeat itself agian.
J. C.

The world must know how tough it was for the people to live back then
and be lucky we don't live like that.
R. S.

The world must know about the Holocaust and what happened to people
that were killed
P. B.

We should learn as much as we can learn so we don't discriminate
against people who didn't do anything wrong to us or our country,
government, or the public.
D. M.

I think the whole world needs to know about the Holocaust,so it won't
happen again. We
T. W.

The people of the world must know that the Holocaust did happen . So
many people
T. H.


I think the world must know that the Holocaust was the largest
genocide, (destruction of
E. P.

During the 1933-1945 period 6 million jews were killed by the Nazis.
They wanted to eliminate all non-aryan, anti-nazi, and disabled
people. We can learn 
A. M.

The world must know that the Holocaust did happen, even though it
should not have. We
L. D.

I think that teenagers today should know what happened in the
holocaust so it will never
S. T.

I saw alot of things at the Holocaust museum that made my stomach turn
just looking at
C. P.

I think the world must know about the Holocaust, so that people like
Hitler never get
J. T.

I think the world must know that the Holocaust was the actions of a
crazy man. It is
C. S.

The world should know that the Holocaust did happen and it was a
horrible time period.
M. A.

The world should know how many people were put to death during the
Holocaust in the concentration and murder camps.
S. S.

What I think the world must know about the Holocaust is that it really
did happen,
T. C.

I think that the world should know the pain that the people went
through during this
T. H. V.

Some of the things I believe the world must know about the Holocaust
are how it happened, 
T. P. 

The world must know that the Holocaust was real and not made up. Why
would so many
B. C.

The world should know all about the Holocaust. The Holocaust is very
important to our
K. C. 

The Holocaust is one of the most important places that I have ever
been to in Washington , D.C. One of the coolest things about the
museum is that 
J. I.
====================================================================

	"interdisciplinary unit"? Excuse me for being direct, but this
term reminds me of something about George Orwell's "Ministry of Love"
in his book "1984".
                                                Tom Moran



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:52 PST 1996
Article: 87165 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:17:06 GMT
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	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
	It is tacit declaration they know they would lose, that they
don't have faith in their position, that they know deep down inside or
are consciously aware their own position rots. 
	
	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
open discussion on the Holocaust.

	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
open discussion on Zionist activity, in the U.S. and the Mideast..
 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:53 PST 1996
Article: 87229 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Socrates and Plato for Revisionist Rights
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:17:55 GMT
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MAN SENTENCED TO DEATH FOR QUESTIONING ORTHODOXY

"The effect of these investigations of mine, gentlemen,, has been 
to arouse against me a great deal of hostility, and hostility of a 
particularly bitter and persistent kind... There is another reason 
for my being unpopular.  A number of young men with wealthy fathers 
and plenty of leisure have deliberately attached themselves to me 
because they enjoy hearing other people cross-questioned.  These 
often take me as their model, and go on to try to question other 
persons; whereupon, I suppose, they find an unlimited number of 
people who think that they know something, but really know little 
or nothing.  Consequently their victims become annoyed, not with 
themselves but with me; and they complain that there is a 
pestilential busybody called Socrates who fills young people's 
heads with wrong ideas.  If you ask them what he does, and what he 
teaches that has this effect, they have no answer, not knowing what 
to say; but as they do not want to admit their confusion, they fall 
back on the stock charges against any philosopher: that he teaches 
his pupils about things in the heavens and below the earth, and to 
disbelieve in gods, and to make the weaker argument defeat the 
stronger.  They would be very loath, I fancy, to admit the truth: 
which is that they are being convicted of pretending to knowledge 
when they are entirely ignorant.  So, jealous, I suppose, for their 
own reputation, and also energetic and numerically strong, and 
provided with a plausible and carefully worked out case against me, 
these people have been dinning into your ears for a long time past 
their violent denunciations of myself."

Socrates as recorded by Plato in Apology 22E-24A

	Socrates had the options of denying what he had put forth, take
banishment or drink poisonous Hemlock. He defended what he had said
and took the drink. 

	Socrates died for all those, to this day, in a struggle against
those who would have us accept their thought imposed by force and
intrigue.  

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:54 PST 1996
Article: 87230 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Christians 'take it like a man'
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:18:10 GMT
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	Over the last two years or so there have been a number of
articles in the N.Y. and L.A. Times about Biblical revisionism. There
also has been a couple sizable articles in TIME Magazine, given front
cover attention.
	The articles have been basically reports on conferences and such,
attended by scholars, and the dogmas challenged have ranged from did
Christ do this , or did he do that, was he really the son of god.

	Now if there has been any wailing and snarling of terms like
'anti-Christianism' I don't recall seeing any reports. Nor do I recall
seeing anyone out to have any conferences banned.
 
	Now there's something noticeably different with all this.

	Here we have challenges to the very heart of a global religion
and nary a uproar, but when it comes to challenging the Holocaust
story - "ANTI-SEMITISM - NEO NAZI - BIGOT - RACIST" - and other
naughty accusations. 

	 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:54 PST 1996
Article: 87231 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 15:49:02 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	Show where Moran said "there were no buildings whatsoever", or
>>even anything even close. Your failure to show it will be your
>>indictment. 
>>	Does Moran mention any buildings for Treblinka in his post, "Air
>>Photo Evidence" - Treblinka, Mr.Keren?
>>
>
>Let me quote Moran's prior post.
>
>"	No. There was no rebellion. There were no buildings. There are
>no
>signs of there ever being any buildings, other than what is shown in
>the 1944 photo."

", other than what is shown in the 1944 photo."

	Mr.Curtis, what is your point?

>Mike Curtis
>
>      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:55 PST 1996
Article: 87232 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Accountability
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 15:32:12 GMT
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	What would happen if the world required all the Holocaust
historians to stand accountable under cross examination?

	We can take a look at what happened at the trial of Ernst Zundel
in Canada where he was tried as a heretic to Holocaust lies.

	1/17/85 
     Maria Bohuslawsky of the Toronto Sun reports on a
cross-examination that took place the day before at the Ernst Zundel
trial, in which self-proclaimed Holocaust "expert" and author Raul
Hilberg admitted under oath that after 36 years of studying the
Holocaust,

	1) he knew of no documentary (printed) evidence that the Nazis
murdered or planned to murder Jews in gas chambers, 
	
	2) he had identified large parts of the key "confession" of Kurt
Gerstein as to the "gassings"	as "pure nonsense" and "totally false," 
	
	3) when presenting the Gerstein "confession" in his book as proof
of Nazi misdeeds he had edited out inconvenient sections in order to
make his point, 
	
	4) he knew of no autopsies that showed death by gassing, 
	
	5) he billed himself as a Holocaust expert for 18 years before
even visiting Auschwitz (he then spent only one day there), 
	
	6) he was not familiar with many books on the subject of which he
was alleged to be the expert, and 
	
	7) he knew of no scientific proof that even one Jew had been
gassed. (see also the article on the same date by Kirk Makin in the
Globe and Mail, and the Sault Star of 1/18/85.)

     When called upon to testify again in a later trial, Hilberg
begged off. 


	Raul Hilberg is yet and currently one of the foremost Holocaust
authorities. Seeing what happened at this rare opportunity to put one
of the Holocaust authorities to the test we can only imagine what
would be the result if all of them were required to stand accountable.

	Considering the results of what happens when they are put to the
test we can see why the fanatic Holocaust dependents try so hard to
avoid being made to stand accountable for their story, opting instead
to cry "Neo-Nazi", "anti-Semitic".

	They can give it, but they can't take it. 

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:56 PST 1996
Article: 87233 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:28:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
>   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
>	
>   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
>   dead at about 2,300,000.
> 
>   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
>   1980.  2,500,000
>
>   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
>   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
>   pp 101-102. 2,000,000
>
>   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
>   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000
>
>   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
>   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
>   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000
>
>   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
>   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000
>
>   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to
>
>   4,500,000
>   
>   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
>   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
>   1,600,000
>   
>   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
>   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
>   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000
>
>   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
>   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
>   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
>   2,500,000 to 4,000,000
>
>   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
>   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
>   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000
>
>   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
>   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
>   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000
>
>   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
>   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
>   2,500,000 to 4,000,000
>
>   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
>  
>   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
>   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000


	A few more examples recently posted by "Waspnot" to show that the
Simon Wiesnthal Center and company committ the lie.

Ordinary v. Mainstream Auschwitz 4,000,000 Deniers

The perfidious English supermen s revisionist version of Auschwitz
4,000,000 extermination history claims that  the mainstream of
historians and Holocaust researchers have_never_bought into the
Soviet estimate for the death toll at Auschwitz. Ever. 

The U.S. currently has in place the new, revised National Standards
for Holocaustes in Schools (NSHS) wherein eight year olds must
study genocide, slavery and  the Holocaust . And, in New York
State students are mandated to study the Irish Potatoe Holocauste.

A few MAINSTREAM  Facts:

Joy Hakim s new revised History of US, Oxford University Press
c1995 states that 3,000,000 Jews were murdered at Auschwitz.

Deborah Lipstadt, mainstream Holocaust historian, certified the
Auschwitz 4,000,000 extermination figure in  Beyond Belief .

Pres. Ford s visit to pay homage to the 4,000,000 exterminated at
Auschwitz was widely reported in the U.S. media (July 30,1995)

L.A. Times reported that all 4,000,000 were Jews.
Houston Post reported that 3,000,000 were Jews.

But, not until 1989 did the mainstream U.S. media (N.Y. Times
Yehuda Bauer) report that the Auschwitz 4,000,000 extermination
number could not now be proven.And, not until 1994 did the U.S.
media (Hearst newspapers) report that the  mainstream  media and
therefore  ordinary  people had been lied to by the Polak Commies
about the  Auschwitz 4,000,000. (Now the Auschwitz 1,500,000)
>   



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:57 PST 1996
Article: 87234 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ordinary v Mainstream Auschwitz . . .
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 01:22:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 31
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> 
>I made a mistake in an earlier post, and though no one has bothered to correct
>it, I thought I'd police myself.  In a thread with a similar name to this one
>(initiated by "waspnot" [?]) I stated that a Washington Post article, dated
>July 30, 1975, appeared to have distanced itself from the claim of four
>million dead at Auschwitz, as declared on a placque that once stood there.
> 
>Looking at the article again, it appears that the writers accepted the
>claim.
> 
>This does not, however, support the position by Holocaust deniers that
>the number then was accepted by all historians or that mysterious gate-
>keepers enforced acceptance of the number at Auschwitz.  It only means that
>reporters used the nearest available source to confirm the number.  And that
>source turned out to be unreliable.

	As to what relevance the old number of those said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz has and the present (current) number, which
is the same as before the reduction of 3,000,000 victims,  Mr.Borowsky
is correct in saying "not all historians" accepted the old number and
didn't use it in their figuring. There is one exception, out of 20 or
30 others. 

> 
>--Bruce Borowsky
> 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>                      Bull Halsey is the 'Netmaster.
> 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:57 PST 1996
Article: 87235 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Murder of Priests in Dachau
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 01:29:30 GMT
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>Source: SS records, quoted in "Concentration Camp Dachau", 
>ISBN 3-87490-528-4, p. 60. 
>
>Nationality      Total   Released   Transferred  Liberated   Deaths
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Albanian           2         -           2            -         -
>Belgian           46         1           3           33         9
>Danish             5         5           -            -         -
>German           447       208         100           45        94
>English            2         -           1            1         -
>French           156         5           4          137        10
>Greek              2         -           -            2         -
>Dutch             63        10           -           36        17
>Italian           28         -           1           26         1
>Lithuanian         3         -           -            3         -
>Luxemburg         16         2           -            8         6
>Norwegian          1         1           -            -         -
>Polish          1780        78           4          830       868
>Rumanian           1         -           -            1         -
>Jugoslavian       50         2           6           38         4
>Spanish            1         -           -            1         -        
>Swiss              2         1           -            -         1
>Czechoslovakian  109         1          10           74        24
>Hungarian          3         -           -            3         - 
>Stateless          3         -           1            2         -
>
>
>Roman Catholic               2579
>Protestant                   109
>Greek Orthodox                22
>Old Catholic and Maronite      8
>Mohammedan                     2
>

	Here we go again.

	What, no rabbis?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:58 PST 1996
Article: 87236 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT I BELIEVE
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:49:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	Its called 'honor'. Some people have it. Some don't.
>
>	You , for example, do not.
>
>	You have several times challenged me to prove the fairly obvious 
>truths that you are a liar and an anti-Semite.  Yet every time I accept this 
>challenge you run and hide.

	Lets do right here. What are you afraid of?

>	"Honor," l'il tommy.  That's a word that should never be in your 
>vocabulary.

	Mr.Edeiken is the one who sdid he had 1600 relatives extermianted
during the Holocaust. Just on his mothers side of the family.
Mr.Edeiken "retracted" the lie when things got rough with demands for
proof.

	Mr.Edeiken claimed a person named "Rachelle" working at the
Allentown Library was holding some books that could prove the Jews
planted 200,000,000 trees in Israel. Inquiry to the library revealed
there was no "Rachelle" working there.

	This is Mr.Edeiken's idea of 'honor'.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:59 PST 1996
Article: 87237 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Certain Perspective
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 17:11:04 GMT
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>octagon@septa.gon (Up front) writes:
>
># If you reduce the bodies to simply their two cubic feet
># of water and stack them into a pyramid you get a structure
># the size of the great pyramid at Giza and enough left over
># in the other 6 million for another pyramid of equal size.
>
>There are a few grave (no pun intended) problems with this
>argument, Matt.
>
>1) Most corpses were burned. This, of course, decreases the
>   volume of the remains by a large factor.
>
>2) Many corpses and huge amount of human remains *were* found.

	Mr.(Dr.)Keren has used this terminology before, "huge amounts" of
human remains were found. I had ask him before to cite the source for
his claim. He never came back. Now here we are again.

     Mr.(Dr.)Keren, you say "huge amounts"?  Go for it. Give it the
ol' PhD.  

>3) Stalin's regime is alleged to have killed even more than
>   six million. You have admitted that you cannot produce
>   *one* single corpse of one of these victims. You have admitted
>   that you cannot produce *one* single corpse of someone who
>   was killed in the alleged aerial attack on Dresden. So, what
>   you're saying is that not only the Holocaust is a "hoax", but
>   that Stalin's atrocities and Dresden's bombing are a "hoax"
>   as well.
>
>Ooops - but you already said that, in a previous article.
>
>I knew that it would take a man of your caliber to finally
>make this major breakthrough in "revisionism". In this great
>country, even senile, unemployed drunkards like you have their
>moments of glory.
>
>Here's a toast for the senile, unemployed drunkard from Tampa,
>Matt Giwer. He may be quite a repulsive, boring fellow, but he
>will go down in history as one of those who shaped "Holocaust
>revisionism" and carried it to heights unheard of. 
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:19:59 PST 1996
Article: 87238 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:14:07 GMT
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>George Cassutto
>Teacher of Social Studies
>North Hagerstown High School (MD)

	A little bit about Mr.Cassutto, evidently the main frame behind
turning the North Hagerstown High School into his own little thing.

>From  Mr.Cassutto's website:

"Mr. Cassutto has developed a series of pages on the experiences of
his parents, who survived the Holocaust. We hope you will take a
minute to review these pages. Their story may be an inspiration to us
living in the present day, and the pages within this link might also
be used to give the history of the Holocaust a personal side and a
human face."
 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:20:00 PST 1996
Article: 87239 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:15:12 GMT
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	The website relates some of the Holocaust activity being made
relevant with other subjects within the school.

	This fits in with other sites on the web concerning teaching the
Holocaust lie in our school systems that goad the Holocaust to be
intergrated with just about every subject in the school systems, from
math to science to English courses. The only subject they seem to have
yet to fit in with the Holocaust is physical education.


	Here is a summary what the Hagerstown School system is being
turned into, taken from the URL supplied by Mr.Cassutto.
====================================================================
	
The Beast Within: An
                   Interdisciplinary Unit

                   This unit involves a study of the darker side of
human nature as explored by the literature and history of 20th century
man. The following topics are covered in:

    Social Studies:

The 9th grade US Government course calls for an examination of
authoritarian government as compared with a democratic system. To
achieve this goal, we examine the human rights abuses of such regimes
as Nazi Germany, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, Cuba under Fidel Castro,
and China under the Communist Party.

The Social Studies curriculum allows for an examination of the
Holocaust as the epitome of evil that Man is capable of. In order to
gain a full understanding of the impact of this event on the lives of
individuals as well as on history, the 9th grade takes a trip to the
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.


Students of US Government and History should also be able to apply the
lessons of the Holocaust to current events and examples of modern-day
genocide, including the tragedy taking place in Bosnia at the present
time.

A series of discussion questions and activities designed as a study
guide for use before, during, and after the visit to the United States
Holocaust Memorial Museum has been posted as a resource. Many of the
questions have been developed from data found in Michael
Berenbaum's book The World Must Know: The History of the Holocaust
As Told By the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. 


    English:

Various pieces of literature that illustrate the darker side of man's
free will. Topics include genocide, segregation, discrimination, hate
crimes, and war as an instrument of evil. The following writing
options will help the student make sense of the student's
experience at the Holocaust Museum or when dealing with other
Holocaust resources.

1) Select an artifact or photograph that had the greatest impact on 
you. List and describe everything you can think of about it relating
to its hidden history. In other words, write a narrative telling your
story as this artifact or photograph. Try to make this as authentic
and historically accurate as you can understanding that your narrative
will be a fictionalized account. This account will be in the first
person. For example:" I am the cast-off shoe of Daniel..." (This
should be a minimum of two double-spaced pages).

2) Write a narrative poem (1-2 pages, double spaced in length) which
tells the story of one of the Holocaust survivors or victims. Use all
the elements present in a narrative: 

     plot, 
     setting, 
     viewpoint, 
     theme. 

Rhyme is optional, but attention should be paid to imagery and figures
of speech.

3) Write an explanatory essay, modelling the sample given for the
traditional essay in your grammar textbook. Explore a theme inpired by
this unit. Examples could include lessons learned from Holocaust
ordeals, from Holocaust vistim and survivors' courage, the individual
in conflict with society, how to combat Man's inhumanity to Man in
everyday life, etc. Make sure each essay has a focused thesis at the
end of its introductory paragraph and the structure suggested.


    Science:

The Science teacher, Ms. Hurley plans to discuss the following
elements: 

     Genetics: Hitler's Eugenics program and the bioethics of genetic
engineering and biotechnology.  The inhumane nature and scientific
fallacies of the medical experiments carried out in the camps by the
Angel of Death, Joseph Mengele. 
     The psuedo-science of racial classification and where racial
studies have gone today. The study of genetic-related diseases such as
Tay-Sachs, Sickle Cell Anemia, Huntington's Chorea, Down's Syndrome
and other genetically transmitted diseases. In the area of biology,
these diseases would represent "the beast within" the human body. 
      Studying the social aspects of discrimination against those with
these diseases      during the period of Nazi Germany and in today's
society might be an interesting appraoch to this biological component.


    Mathematics:

Ms. Cross, our Math teacher, plans to have students examine the
following elements:

Students will develop line, bar, circle or pictographs, illustrating
some statistical application of Holocaust data. possible applications
include:  
     Percentage of Jewish populations decimated by the Final Solution
and percentages of populations remaining by county. 
     Inmate populations of the major killing centers and
concentrations camps during the chronology of the Holocaust. 
     Percentage on non-Jewish victims by country at any one time. 
     Statistics on the Nazi rise to power as seen in number of seats
gained in the Reichstag from 1928 to 1932. 
     Extent of German control of occupied territory by year in square
miles and kilometers. 
     Number of acquitted, sentenced and executed Nazi war criminals as
a result of the Nuremburg Trials. 
     Numerical comparisons between genocides of the Armenian,
Cambodian, and Rwandan episodes and that of the Jewish Holocaust. 
     A geopolitical analysis of the land distribution between ethnic
groups in Bosnia as a result of pending peace talks. 

In reaction to the data presented at the Holocaust Museum and in
class, students may
also be given the following assignment choices:

     Write an essay or poem describing how you would have felt had you
been a  survivor of the Holocaust. 
     Draw a sketch or other artistic expression describing what the
Holocaust means to you. 
     Include a written caption explaining the symbols of your artistic
expression. 
     Develop a short research paper that outlines where events such as
the Holocaust are still taking place or have taken place in recent
world history. Include a comment on the lesson of the Holocaust for
current generations and world leaders. 

Please read the poetry of 9th grade North High students who has
visited the Holocaust Memorial Museum.

     A. B. 
     Mary L. 
     Shannon S.
      


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:20:01 PST 1996
Article: 87240 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 14:50:14 GMT
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	No doubt there are many more examples out there in books and
publications that would show the lie. As it stands now, there are
probably 30 or so examples to show that the Simon Wiesenthal Center
commits the evil deed of claiming the old number never had any thing
to do with the overall number of 6,000,000 Jews alleged to have been
exterminated by the Germans. And now it looks like it has become a
part of the  'National Standards for Holocausts in Schools' (NSHS)
where the teachers will be required to teach the big lie on top of the
overall Holocaust lie. Our little minds going off to school where the
teachers have to teach it and the little minds will have to believe
it.
	So much for the United States of America. So much for all the
lives lost that resulted in the grandest of all documents, The
Constitution of the United States and The Bill of Rights.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:20:02 PST 1996
Article: 87241 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 14:52:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <32b904a8.444562@199.0.216.204>
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>>>>>Dear Readers, 
>>>>>
>>>>>Our interdisciplinary team has developed a unit on Tolerance and the
>>>>>Holocaust entitled "The Beast Within." The web page that grew from this
>>>>>unit has been on our website for the past year at
>>>>>http://www.fred.net/nhhs/html/beast.htm.
============================================================================
>>>	I would ask the instructor, George Cassutto, Teacher of Social
>>>Studies, North Hagerstown High School (MD) if he would do a survey of
>>>his students and see what they think about the simple question -
>>>
>>>	Does the world have the right to question existing historical
>>>accounts?
>>
>>	My second question would be to inquire if any of the students are
>>aware that many things that were once claimed about this Holocaust are
>>now recognized as being untrue?
>
>	I would also like to know if your students think any opposition
>to existing historical accounts should be taught in our schools also.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Whether or not this is a hit and run by Mr.Cassutto, thinking all
he has to do is come out and announce his website and then fade away
hoping people will accept it all with blind acceptance, we will have
to wait and see.
	His website solicits responses galore, even having highlighted
links for e-mail to individual students. Of course we can bet
Mr.Cassutto will be the one who does the reading and determining which
e-mails he will pass on to the students.

	As to the straight forward questions posed above, we can count on
getting no reply.
	All announcements, proclamations and claims, and no response to
questions, that's what the Holocaust dependents like.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:20:03 PST 1996
Article: 87242 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka mass graves
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 15:16:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
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>destroyer@navy.water (Arleigh Burke) writes:
>
># Since you wish to continue this, little Danny, NAME THE
># CAMP that fits the descriptions given of Treblinka as
># Treblinka certainly fits no description given.
>
>As I have suggested in an earlier post, best thing to do
>is try and contact the author. I am not a mind-reader and
>I cannot speak for him. My first guess would be Auschwitz,
>the second Maidanek.

	Mr.Keren, would either one of these camps have the Holocaust
history described by the eyewitness/Sachar/"Redemption of the
Unwanted"/Old Frogs Almanac of the Soviets over running the camp and
finding train loads of dead bodies? 


>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:20:03 PST 1996
Article: 87243 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:30:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
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>Mr.Cassutto wrote:

>>>>>Dear Readers, 
>>>>>
>>>>>Our interdisciplinary team has developed a unit on Tolerance and the
>>>>>Holocaust entitled "The Beast Within." The web page that grew from this
>>>>>unit has been on our website for the past year at
>>>>>http://www.fred.net/nhhs/html/beast.htm.
============================================================================
Moran ask:
>>>	I would ask the instructor, George Cassutto, Teacher of Social
>>>Studies, North Hagerstown High School (MD) if he would do a survey of
>>>his students and see what they think about the simple question -
>>>
>>>	Does the world have the right to question existing historical
>>>accounts?
>>
>>	My second question would be to inquire if any of the students are
>>aware that many things that were once claimed about this Holocaust are
>>now recognized as being untrue?
>
>	I would also like to know if your students think any opposition
>to existing historical accounts should be taught in our schools also.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Whether or not this is a hit and run by Mr.Cassutto, thinking all
he has to do is come out and announce his website and then fade away
hoping people will accept it all with blind acceptance, we will have
to wait and see.
	His website solicits responses galore, even having highlighted
links for e-mail to individual students. Of course we can bet
Mr.Cassutto will be the one who does the reading and determining which
e-mails he will pass on to the students.

	As to the straight forward questions posed above, we can count on
getting no reply.
	All announcements, proclamations and claims, and no response to
questions, lest of course they show undaunting support for the
material, this is the norm. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 11:20:04 PST 1996
Article: 87244 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 14:53:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
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>In message <32b457a2.7640397@news.gte.net> - destroyer@navy.water (Arleigh
>Burke)Sun, 15 Dec 1996 20:26:49 GMT writes:
>:>
>
>[deleted]
>
>:>	Now this is an excellant example of deception.  It is true that the
>:>distance from the MAIN entrance to K II and III is on the order of a
>:>mile.  It is also true that the distance from the rail unloading ramp
>:>to K II and III is on the order of 600 feet and are clearly visible
>:>from that ramp.  
>
>Apart from the obvious rubbish in Giwer's statement, one wonders why
>Auschwitz--that Nazi home away from home--had so damn many Kremas.  I wonder
>if the drunken troll has an answer for that?
>
>[Note to lurkers: we all know what he will be told to say]
>

	"McFee", why do you suppose the Germans didn't build the rail
line past the Cremas II and III, instead opting to end the line right
there where only the last car or engine could get to?

	Why did the Germans unload people intended for mass extermination
600 feet away?

	Especially since the story has it the buildings were built
exclusively for the purpose of mass exterminating hundreds of
thousands of people, one would think they would have built the rail
line past the two cremas so they could unload them right there instead
of having them, the thousands, each day, day after day, week after
week, month after month, walk the 600 feet, past the women's section
on one side and the mens section on the other side.

	What about that "McFee"?


>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 13:36:27 PST 1996
Article: 87313 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prof. Pfannenstiel Testifies About Belzec Death Camp
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:58:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>Well, Tommy, why don't you do something productive for a change,
>and study this matter? You could start by writing the "Institute
>for Contemporary History" in Munich, for instance.
>
>Why should I do your work for you, Tommy? 
>
>BTW, I assume that the spinning mills were not at the death camp
>itself, but in the town of Belzec.
>
>But, once again: if you're interested in this topic, why don't
>you do some research yourself?
>
># Mr.(Dr.)Keren?
>
>Is this "Mr.(Dr.)" thing supposed to insult me, Tommy? You're 
>60-years-old, right? Can you possibly start acting your age?
>
>Or is that old inferiority complex kicking into gear again, Tommy?

>-Danny Keren.

	Okay, Mr.(Dr.)Keren says he doesn't want to stand by his post.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 13:36:27 PST 1996
Article: 87314 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ordinary v Mainstream Auschwitz 4,000,000 Deniers - Revised
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:59:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>  
>>  	Mr.Browosky states, "this figure had already been challenged by
>>  serious historians as early as the 1960s", but then this of course
>>  would be the exception and not the rule. The facts are, a actual
>>  record is posted from time to time shows the rule and Mr.Browosky and
>>  the rest of the Holocaust dependents just claim it ain't so. The
>>  record stands at about 30 to 1. Thirty examples for the higher Jewish
>>  numbers and one example (Reitlinger) for the lower. If all examples
>>  were known it would be more like 100s to 1 or 2.
>
>	Odd, isn't it that you cannot post a single historian of the Holocaust that 
>accepts the number of 4,000,000 Jews murdered at Auschwitz.
>
>	--YFE

	See "BEHOLD THE LIE".



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 16:23:32 PST 1996
Article: 87343 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jews and Crosses
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 22:08:50 GMT
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	The Jews love to recount all the places that the people rose up
against whatever they were up to. They call it persecution. Whatever,
they create their own history. An ugly thing. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 19:56:03 PST 1996
Article: 87379 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Away with the Christmas tree in with the Star of David
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 16:50:18 GMT
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Lines: 10
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	What is a "Goony Bird"?

	A Goony bird is a real bird. It lays it's eggs in the nest of
another species that is smaller in size. The unwary little bird sits
on the eggs not knowing there is alien egg in the nest with her own.
The eggs hatch and then the bigger Goony chick, with evolutionary
instinct proceeds to nudge the other chicks out of the nest while the
parent is away. The parent comes back and proceeds to carry on feeding
the Goony chick until the day it flys away. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 19:56:03 PST 1996
Article: 87383 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Once upon a time
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 16:50:09 GMT
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"It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances
were built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that
the people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed
and then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a
special way; there they were killed."
IMT VII - p.576-577. 

	"IMT", International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg Trials.

	Evidence now accepted, begrudgedly by some, as lies.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 22:36:20 PST 1996
Article: 87395 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L.A.Times headlines, one thing, the copy another
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 16:55:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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    Dec.20, 1996, big day for Jewish say in the L.A. and N.Y.Times.

	New York Times
     ==============

	A.M.Rosenthal, regular Jewish columnist, raging for all things
good Jews.

	Four Letters to the Editor.

	Andrew Herenstien, Laura Klinger, Lisa Feldman and Michael Forbes
(Member of Congress). All things bad Arab/Palestinian, all things good
Jews.

	Las Angeles Times
     =================

     Article, things bad Palestinian, all things Jewish as victims.

	Two editorials, between the lines, Irving Moskowitz and Henry
Siegman, bad Palestinians and good Jewish victims.


	So today, Dec.20, 1996, Jews and one Congressional lackey, making
it 8 to 0, Jews good, Palestinians not good.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 22:36:21 PST 1996
Article: 87424 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 15:43:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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References: <32A2CDAA.7C19@rio.com>  <58iimu$pfl@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <32ad1c48.7447280@news.gte.net> <58mn6s$gme@ratty.wolfe.net> <32b0e620.17997329@news.gte.net>  <32b3499e.21753265@news.gte.net> <5901fn$i7k@ratty.wolfe.net> <32ba5838.172758354@news.zilker.net>
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>dstowers@wolfenet.com (Drew Stowers) wrote:
>
>>destroyer@navy.water (Arleigh Burke) wrote:
>>
>
>The troll may not respond to you. :-) 
>
>>
>>>	That is NOT and IF.  The six million DID include four million from
>>>Auschwitz. 
>>
>>Did it?  Most sources I've read don't add up the death tolls of each
>>individual camp, ghetto, anti-tank ditch, or train car to get a
>>figure.  Instead they took the number of Jews that were know to be
>>alive prior to the start of the war and then counted the number left
>>alive at the end of the war.  BTW why are you (and other revisionist)
>>stuck on Auschwitz.  What about Treblinka, Belsec, Sibibor, and
>>Chelmno?  Hundreds of thousands died in these camps but you never
>>mention them.
>>
>
>The camps above were strictly death camps or extermination camps.
>Auschwitz was multipurpose and was several camps. This makes their
>distortions easy to form. That is why Auschwitz is so popular with the
>denial groups.
>
>
>However, good show!

	Interesting switcheroo. The facts are, Holocaust accounts focuses
on Auschwitz. Auschwitz is 99% of the story. This is the documented
fact.
>Mike Curtis
>
>      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 21 22:36:22 PST 1996
Article: 87450 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Heads Up L'il Tommy
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:05:15 GMT
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>In message <32bd18c8.6496913@199.0.216.204> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran)Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:28:51 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>
>:>The Best of Nizkor; 
>
>How's the wife and kids, zeyde?

	"McFee", since we have a documented history of being of opposite
veiws, and many examples of uptight reaction from yourself, I will ask
you right now, why do ask "How's the wife and kids?"?

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 10:06:56 PST 1996
Article: 87533 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Semites: a highly derivative culture, at best.
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 19:09:22 GMT
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>Everyone interested in History and Truth read:
>
>  The Sumerians
>  C. Leonard Woolsey
>  Barnes and Noble, 1995
>
>Woolsey's book is a Barnes and Noble reissue of an earlier Oxford
>Press Edition.
>
>Woolsley led the team that excavated the Sumerian city of Ur,  circa
>1927.
>
>The Sumerians are the oldest documented civilization. They were a
>non-semitic-speaking people whose artifacts date to at least 3500bc.
>Among these artifacts are lists of kings that point back to
>unimaginable antiquity. 
>
>Among other things, Sumerians invented the wheel; they invented
>writing.

	More current writings on the Sumerians puts them coming into the
"Fertile Crescent" area around 4,000 years ago.

	The development of writing is well documented in hundreds of
thousands of clay shards found. Showing the evolution from pictograph
to abstract representation to Cuneiform and on to the alphabet we use
today, which was mostly developed by the Phoenicians who were the
Hebrews next door neighbors, and who the Hebrews had to call on to
build their temples and any ships they had.

>Hebrew culture dates to 1960bc. 

	The most common date given for the archeological (non-biblical)
record for the Hebrew existence doesn't start until 1250 BC. By this
time many things had been developed. Comparing anything available for
the Hebrew record shows them to have been the most backward group in
the area, almost being totally devoid of any kind of culture outside
of what the Bible tells us, which is being recognized more and more as
fiction, even unto "David". Biblical scholars have to refer to the
records of other cultures in order to confirm or deny biblical
accounts, with the results being mostly denial.

	Jews still, to this day, bemoan their slavery to Egypt, that they
built the pyramids. The Jewish existence is currently put at starting
around 1250 BC and the pyramids were built almost a couple of thousand
years before that. The Bible also has a number of accounts of how the
Jews called for Egyptian aid in dealing with enemies and some running
off to that land for sanctuary when they had disputes with each other.

	Jewish history is kind of humorous in it's own little way.  

>According to Woolsey, when the Sumerians came into what is today
>Southern Iraq they found extremely barbarous semitic-speaking peoples
>whom they had little trouble enslaving. Over time, these and other
>semitic peoples in the region acquired culture by osmosis until they
>developed competitive civilizations (eg, the Akkadians).
>
>Virtually every cultural element, including Monotheism, that the
>Hebrews and Christians later self-promoted they derived from Sumerian
>influence and teachings.
>
>Read this book. The Chosen People are no more than third-rate
>plagiarists, echoing commercial versions of ideas passed onto them by
>a great non-semitic civilization that considered the semitic-epeaking
>peoples of the mid-east crude and backward.
>
>titan
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 10:06:57 PST 1996
Article: 87536 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:20:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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>>>>Dear Readers, 
>>>>
>>>>Our interdisciplinary team has developed a unit on Tolerance and the
>>>>Holocaust entitled "The Beast Within." The web page that grew from this
>>>>unit has been on our website for the past year at
>>>>http://www.fred.net/nhhs/html/beast.htm.
>>
>>
>>>          [ "The world must/should/needs to know ..." ]
>>
>>	I would ask the instructor, George Cassutto Teacher of Social
>>Studies North Hagerstown High School (MD) if he would do a survey of
>>his students and see what they think about the simple question -
>>
>>	Does the world have the right to question existing historical
>>accounts?
>
>	My second question would be to inquire if any of the students are
>aware that many things that were once claimed about this Holocaust are
>now recognized as being untrue?

	I would also like to know if your students think any opposition
to existing historical accounts should be taught in our schools also.




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 10:06:58 PST 1996
Article: 87537 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Big "Mistake"
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:36:22 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
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>As I have said, the most logical assumption is that the
>author quoted by Tom Moran confused the names of two
>different camps. The best thing, I guess, is to ask him;
>does anyone know how to contact the author (Sachar,
>Abram L.)?

>-Danny Keren.

	If anyone out here has the capability to contact Abram Sachar,
it's Mr.Keren. He is very active in the workings of a number of
Holocaust promotional networks.

	If Mr.Keren should say he has gotten in touch with Abram Sachar
and Mr.Keren says Mr.Sachar says it was a mistake, how would we know?

	If Mr.Sachar should come back and claim he made a mistake, would
he subject himself to cross examination?

	As it stands now, we have what Mr.Sachar wrote and what Mr.Keren
offers.

	Mr.Keren, which part is a "mistake"? I realize you said Abram
Sachar might have mistaken what camp he was relating to, so maybe you
could suggest which camp this piece of his tale speaks of, "When the
Russians took over Treblinka, there was no shortage of evidence, the
suffocated bodies in recently arrived cattle cars, the abandoned
instruments of torture and death, the files and records that the
Germans had so carefully maintained". 

	Now Mr.Keren, can you say which camp it might have been that the
Russians took over where there were still "the suffocated bodies in
recently arrived cattle cars"?




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 10:06:58 PST 1996
Article: 87538 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:36:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
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References:  <19961212201400.PAA12858@ladder01.news.aol.com> <58s9st$i7l@access5.digex.net> <32c426e1.10106364@199.0.216.204> <32c527ac.10309202@199.0.216.204>
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>In article , 
>Marty Kelley  wrote:
>
>[an abject moron wrote]
>
>>> >	Which proves nothing about "Gandhi". Going by his writing style,
>>> >"Gandhi" is obviously a Jew. 
> 
>>> 	The same goes for "McFee".
>
>>Oooh, that's a new one, Mr. Moran--could you explain how you can tell what
>>people's ethnic/religious backgrounds are by their writing style?  This
>>will no doubt be of great use to Science.
>
>Mr. Kelley, I think it will rank right up there with Certified
>100% Pure Aryan Earwax... where, or where, is Leslie Griswold when
>you need comic relief?
>
>Having met Mr. McFee, I can testify that he drinks Guinness. (And you
>know what _that_ means.)
>
>As to determinations based upon one's writing, I'd say there are
>interesting possibilities... Reading Mr. Moran's archives, for
>instance, suggests that he is obviously an idiot.
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/
>
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org

	Hilary, I know that's you. What have you done with McVay?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 10:06:59 PST 1996
Article: 87539 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:52:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
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>On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> 
>> >	Which proves nothing about "Gandhi". Going by his writing style,
>> >"Gandhi" is obviously a Jew. 
>> 
>> 	The same goes for "McFee".
>
>Oooh, that's a new one, Mr. Moran--could you explain how you can tell what
>people's ethnic/religious backgrounds are by their writing style?  This
>will no doubt be of great use to Science.

	Over fifteen years of reading Jewish stuff. Hundreds of letters
to editors, hundreds of signed and unsigned editorials, hundreds of
ads, thousands of lines from other sources, including right out here.
It's a culminating thing, like it is when we have knowledge of
anything. The more you see, the more you notice.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>   
>"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
>When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
>			--Dom Helder Camara
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 10:07:00 PST 1996
Article: 87540 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prof. Pfannenstiel Testifies About Belzec Death Camp
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:53:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist, on a gassing 
>at Belzec
>[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 238-244]
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August
>1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp. I
>would like to describe how I came to be there. During my conversations
>with SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik, he told me about the large
>spinning-mills that he had set up in Belzec. He also mentioned that
>work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production. When
>I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me proudly
>that they had come from the Jews. At this point he also mentioned the
>extermination actions against the Jews, who for the most part were
>killed at the the camp at Belzec...

	Mr.Keren, poster of this eyewitness testimony, could you expand
on what this witness meant by, "When I asked him where the spinning
materials came from, he told me proudly that they had come from the
Jews". 

	If one had an aerial photograph or eyewitness plan of this
Belzec, could you explain where these spinning mills would have been?	

	The testimony also states Globocnik told him, "He also mentioned
that work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production".
Now we haven't any other information on this spinning industry at this
time, said to have taken place at Belzec but, "considerably
outstrip(ing)" the German spinning industry seems quite awesome and we
should think there should be some kind of record of the Belzec
industry being put together, machines, shipping whatever and records
of distribution of the finished spinning product. Do you know if there
is any record of this?

>During this first visit I was taken to around by a certain
>Polizieihauptmann named Wirth, who also showed and explained to me the
>extermination installations at the camp. He told me that the following
>morning a new transport of about 500 Jews would be arriving at the
>camp who would be channeled through these extermination chambers. He
>asked me whether I would like to watch one of these extermination
>actions, to which, after a great deal of reflection, I consented. I
>planned to submit a report to the Reichsarzt-SS about the
>extermination actions. In order to write a report I had, however,
>first to observe an action with my own eyes. I remained in the camp,
>spent the night there and was witness to the following events the next
>morning.
>
>A goods train traveled directly into the camp of Belzec, the freight
>cars were opened and Jews whom I believe were from the area of Romania
>or Hungary were unloaded. The cars were crammed fairly full. There
>were men, women and children of every age. They were ordered to get
>into line and then had to proceed to an assembly area and take off
>their shoes...
>
>After the Jews had removed their shoes they were separated by sex. The
>women went together with the children into a hut. There their hair was
>shorn and they had to get undressed... The men went into another hut,
>where they received the same treatment. I saw what happened in the
>women's hut with my own eyes. After they had undressed, the whole
>procedure went fairly quickly. They ran naked from the hut through a
>hedge into the actual extermination centre. The whole extermination
>centre looked just like a normal delousing institution. In front of
>the building there were pots of geraniums and a sign saying "Hackenholt
>Foundation", above which there was a star of David. The building was
>brightly and pleasantly painted so as not to suggest people would be
>killed here...
>
>Inside the buildings, the Jews had to enter chambers into which was
>channeled the exhaust of a [100(?)]-HP engine, located in the same
>building. In it there were six such extermination chambers. They were
>windowless, had electric lights and two doors. One door led outside so
>that the bodies could be removed.  People were led from a corridor
>into the chambers through an ordinary air-tight door with bolts. There
>was a glass peep-hole, as I recall, next to the door in the wall.
>Through this window one could watch what was happening inside the room
>but only when it was not too full of people. After a short time the
>glass became steamed up. When the people had been locked in the room
>the motor was switched on and then I suppose the stop-valves or vents
>to the chambers opened.  Whether they were stop-valves or vents I
>would not like to say. It is possible that the pipe led led directly
>to the chambers. Once the engine was running, the light in the
>chambers was switched off. This was followed by palpable disquiet in
>the chamber. In my view it was only then that the people sensed
>something else was in store for them. It seemed to me that behind the
>thick walls and door they were praying and shouting for help.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 10:07:01 PST 1996
Article: 87559 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Day of Rememberance
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:17:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	 4/17/96 in the N.Y. Times the report on the Jews holocaust
bombing of Lebanon's vital installations for survival like electrical
power plants that operate hospitals and such with American supplied
arms and the intentional bombing of refugee camps, mentioned the Jews
eased up for "2 minutes" in respect for Holocaust "Day of Remembrance.



	In the L.A.Times, same day, "Rotunda Rite in Remembrance of
Holocaust" it was reported that the main responsible parties for
supplying the arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite
in observance or Day of Remembrance.
	"Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony ..."

========================================================================
	It didn't say how many members of congress attended, but it also
reported that "Shortly after, the House passed, 420 - 0, a resolution
deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of the
Holocaust.
	It is probable that attempts were made to have the House ban the
right of anyone to deny the "reality" but this is all they dared right
now. But it could be a prelude.
=======================================================================

	In the mean time our congress will be hard at work to see that
the Jews get all the things they need to continue their Holocaust in
the Mideast.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 12:11:09 PST 1996
Article: 87619 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:16:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 2
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	The Holocaust promotional network's pet word.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 16:38:18 PST 1996
Article: 87655 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:03:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
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>>Dear Readers, 
>>
>>Our interdisciplinary team has developed a unit on Tolerance and the
>>Holocaust entitled "The Beast Within." The web page that grew from this
>>unit has been on our website for the past year at
>>http://www.fred.net/nhhs/html/beast.htm.


>          [ "The world must/should/needs to know ..." ]

	I would ask the instructor, George Cassutto Teacher of Social
Studies North Hagerstown High School (MD) if he would do a survey of
his students and see what they think about the simple question -

	Does the world have the right to question existing historical
accounts?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 16:38:19 PST 1996
Article: 87656 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Since you asked, Mr. Moran...[rather long post] (Was Re: Treblinka , mass graves)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:37:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <32cdc0ff.25643219@199.0.216.204>
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>On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, tom moran wrote:

>> >>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

And then 
>[Marty Kelley wrote]

	Seven hundred (700) lines of response. Mr.Kelley and Moran have
been through this a number of times before. Mr.Kelley gets no response
to his gasping out of breath 700 lines until he includes what was
given to him in the past.

	In the mean time, Moran reiterates, Jews and Jewish organizations
have been active in intimidating the ban of the cross, Christmas tree,
the Nativity Scene and singing Christmas carols in public places while
arguing the menorah is okay because it is a secular symbol, which it
isn't.

	Moran also said that "Schindler's List" was a flop.

	 

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 16:38:20 PST 1996
Article: 87657 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CHARGES
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:17:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	What should one make of it if someone makes charges of
anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism and/or racism and can't or refuses to follow
up with an argument for proof?

	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 16:38:21 PST 1996
Article: 87658 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust tyranny
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:17:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Or, Disagreeable Words for the ADL, Simon Wiesenthal and Co.
                 ==============================

	
	"Liberty of speech, inviteth and provoketh liberty to be used
again, and so bringeth much to a man's knowledge."
                                            Francis Bacon

	"The most beautiful thing in the world is freedom of speech."
                                            Diogenes

	"To speaketh his thoughts is every freeman's right, in peace and
war, in council and in fight."
                                            Homer

	"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it."
                                            Voltaire


	Freedom of Speech is the enemy of the totalitarian Holocaust lie.
                                            Moran 

                                             


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 22 16:38:22 PST 1996
Article: 87659 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:17:42 GMT
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	During the American Revolution fighting took place for years.
Over the plains and up the mountains, guns, cannons, fire and freezing
cold. Men losing their arms, legs and lives. Sons and daughters losing
fathers. Wives losing husbands. Friends dying together in mangled
lumps. And when it was all over the United States stood before the
world with its grand document like no other nation had ever seen
before. The Constitution of the United states.
	This quest for freedom is not something unique to the United
States alone, it has been going on for w. In ancient Greece and Rome,
and before that, the struggle has been going on. The French Revolution
the Magna Carta. Many fighters have died across the ages and the
Constitution of the United States is the latest and most significant
of the culmination this human struggle. We must recognize these
ancient fighters as part of our heritage.
	Now here we are, 200 and some years after the Revolution and
thousands of years after the others with Simon Wiesenthals, ADLs and
the like come latelies plying about our nation trying to undo it all.
	Regardless of what the Jews will self proclaim about their place
at the head of this human history of seeking justice and freedoms for
the people, ancient Israel never had such freedoms for their own
people under their own government, the truth lies in their two little
books. And the history of their activity in the United States is well
documented, tenacious to control our modes of communication, using it
to sell us on Israel, their one and only allegiance. The little 2%
putting out the 100% on how great they are.   
	Its lucky we have the ACLU with the Jewish leadership out on the
front lines defending us. Going to court, raising legal precedences,
citing this and that, filing this, making a motion for that. Of course
all this is prone to juggling by some magistrate before he or she
makes a determination. One person, maybe two or three. One giving
here, another giving there. This is the vulnerability of our freedoms
if we should allow it to be a legal issue, dependant on the will and
competency of the minuscule.
	The Constitution of the United States is a philosophical
doctrine. It can not be left up to magistrates and senators to make
amendments or set limits on the basic tenets as they have been doing
with increasing frequency. The Constitution being a philosophical
document should be left up to the national discussion. It has to be
discussed in the same fashion that we would discuss any philosophy. 

	Some talk real democracy, others just use the word. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 23 07:54:00 PST 1996
Article: 87755 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Flat Earth and the Holocaust
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:01:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <32c64c91.2482115@199.0.216.204>
References: <32b8bacc.601483@199.0.216.204> <32b55de5.273856@199.0.216.204> <59iakf$12hh@itssrv1.ucsf.edu>
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>In article <32b55de5.273856@199.0.216.204>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>>	
>>>	The only difference between those who so adamantly push the
>>>Holocaust story and the 'Flat Earth Society' is, that the latter
>>>doesn't go around trying to have it made a law demanding we have to
>>>believe it.
>
>Who does, tommy?  Name one person in this forum 
>who thinks that Holocaust denial should be outlawed.
>
>I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but 
>every statement from Ken, Jamie, and others that i've 
>read supports your right to speak your mind.  
>
>Now, this doesn't mean we'll let you distort
>history withour speaking _our_ minds.  

	The Holocaust revisionist aim is to 'undistort' history.


>>	There is that other major difference between those who belong to
>>the Flat Earth Society and those who pushy push the Holocaust story,
>>the Flat Earther's know it's a spoof. But then again, those who pushy
>>push the Holocaust story try awfully hard to keep it from being
>>questioned so there seems to be something with that.
>
>If that was true, then why do we support your right
>to make an ass out of yourself in this forum, free 
>from censorship?

	Lets take it to the campuses directly? Is that what you would
support? Or would you be one out there with Hillel? How come we don't
see any Holocaust revisionism in and on our medias?


>- Brian
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 23 07:54:01 PST 1996
Article: 87756 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewishness is a "gift"
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:04:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 9
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	The same day Nemoy was telling how wonderful Jewishness is,
gitfted Jewish "settlers" in the West Bank were having it out with a
bunch of school children.

	The chosen also attacked reporters who were recording the
incident.

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:00 PST 1996
Article: 87873 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:55:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <32d440a1.15995917@199.0.216.204>
References: <32B4781E.1383@fred.net> <32b86bd4.3839861@199.0.216.204> <32bd7134.5216501@199.0.216.204> <32bce646.804807@news.inetport.com>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>>Dear Readers, 
>>>>
>>>>Our interdisciplinary team has developed a unit on Tolerance and the
>>>>Holocaust entitled "The Beast Within." The web page that grew from this
>>>>unit has been on our website for the past year at
>>>>http://www.fred.net/nhhs/html/beast.htm.
>>
>>
>>>          [ "The world must/should/needs to know ..." ]
>>
>>	I would ask the instructor, George Cassutto Teacher of Social
>>Studies North Hagerstown High School (MD) if he would do a survey of
>>his students and see what they think about the simple question -
>>
>>	Does the world have the right to question existing historical
>>accounts?
>
>A hard thin for most deniers to grasp is that existing historical
>accounts have been questioned and analyzed. New documentation is being
>found since the fall of the Soviet Union and that material is being
>questioned. Questioning is one thing that the world, as you put it, is
>not really doing. A small hysterical fringe is trying to deny the
>history by any means they can. Unfortunately the world doesn't seem
>very interested.

	Is that a 'yes' or a 'no'?

>Mike Curtis 
>E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:01 PST 1996
Article: 87874 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ordinary v Mainstream Auschwitz 4,000,000 Deniers - Revised
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 20:02:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <32d741a7.16257964@199.0.216.204>
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>
>>  >	Odd, isn't it that you cannot post a single historian of the Holocaust that 
>>  >accepts the number of 4,000,000 Jews murdered at Auschwitz.
>
>>  	See "BEHOLD THE LIE".
>
>	I did.  At least one of the quotes I checked (supposedly from the 
>Encyclopedia Judiaca) was a fraudulent misrepresentation.  One historian was 
>quoted without citing a source (Yehuda Bauer).  Other than Bauer not a single 
>recognized historian was cited.

	"Recognized" historian. Interesting. Of course we have to wonder
about who will do the recognizing.

	Anyway, go yell it from the mountain tops. It won't do any good.
The examples are plenty for the one and quite rare for the other. 

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:02 PST 1996
Article: 87886 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Murder of Priests in Dachau
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 23:12:08 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <32d4c01c.32060381@199.0.216.204>
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>On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 01:29:30 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>Source: SS records, quoted in "Concentration Camp Dachau", 
>>>ISBN 3-87490-528-4, p. 60. 
>>>
>>>Nationality      Total   Released   Transferred  Liberated   Deaths
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Albanian           2         -           2            -         -
>>>Belgian           46         1           3           33         9
>>>Danish             5         5           -            -         -
>>>German           447       208         100           45        94
>>>English            2         -           1            1         -
>>>French           156         5           4          137        10
>>>Greek              2         -           -            2         -
>>>Dutch             63        10           -           36        17
>>>Italian           28         -           1           26         1
>>>Lithuanian         3         -           -            3         -
>>>Luxemburg         16         2           -            8         6
>>>Norwegian          1         1           -            -         -
>>>Polish          1780        78           4          830       868
>>>Rumanian           1         -           -            1         -
>>>Jugoslavian       50         2           6           38         4
>>>Spanish            1         -           -            1         -        
>>>Swiss              2         1           -            -         1
>>>Czechoslovakian  109         1          10           74        24
>>>Hungarian          3         -           -            3         - 
>>>Stateless          3         -           1            2         -
>>>
>>>
>>>Roman Catholic               2579
>>>Protestant                   109
>>>Greek Orthodox                22
>>>Old Catholic and Maronite      8
>>>Mohammedan                     2
>>>
>>
>>	Here we go again.
>>
>>	What, no rabbis?
>
>	They did not list shamans.  

	Giwer. Do you post in your sleep?


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:02 PST 1996
Article: 87888 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khatyn?  Katyn?
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 17:00:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 4
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>	The Allies sat back and acquiesced.

	"Silence is consent."


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:03 PST 1996
Article: 87890 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khatyn?  Katyn?
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 17:03:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 7
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>
>>	The Allies sat back and acquiesced.
>
>	"Silence is consent."

	"To remain silent when one should speak out, is to make cowards
of men." 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:04 PST 1996
Article: 87892 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CHARGES
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:51:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <32c44a62.1922759@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <32c39d59.1906886@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>>         
>>         What should one make of it if someone makes charges of
>> anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism and/or racism and can't or refuses to follow
>> up with an argument for proof?
>
>Well, Mr. Moron, sometimes the proof is in the words of the "accused."
> 
>Like when someone uses the words "Yid" and "kike" enough times, that's
>proof enough for me.

	I'll go with you here. The use of derogatory ethnic nicknames
signafies, to me anyway, blanket prejudice.

	Who do you have in mind or refer to as using the terms '"Yid"'
and '"kike"'?

>Sara
>
>-- 
>"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the
>Christian religion."
>       George Washington, 1796



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:05 PST 1996
Article: 87895 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ordinary v Mainstream Auschwitz . . .
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:55:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 160
Message-ID: <32d04095.15984108@199.0.216.204>
References: <17862D0D5S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <19961220132800.IAA05177@ladder01.news.aol.com> <17863FAD8S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
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	The URL is from Nizkor.

>   http://search.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/appendix-2.html

	This is it.

                  Deceit & Misrepresentation 
              The Techniques of Holocaust Denial

                               Appendix 2 
        Historical sources and the Auschwitz death toll estimates



Appendix A: Auschwitz Death Tolls in Western Sources

"Auschwitz" The World Book Encyclopedia. Chicago: World Book, 1980.
(2.5 million)

 Bauer, Yehuda. A History of the Holocaust. New York: F. Watts. 1982.
p 215. (1.5 to 3.5 million.)

[Jews that is] 

 Yeduha Bauer. "Danger of Distortion, Poles and Jews alike are
supplying those who deny the Holocaust with the best possible
arguments" Jerusalem Post., 30 Sep 1989 (1.6 million) 

	[It's obvious that Bauer was more concerned with the old figures
being used by revisionist than he was for any accuracy. Anyway we can
see he had gotten the new revised figure by 1989.]

Bauer, Yehuda. "Foreword", in Muller', Filip. Eyewitness Auschwitz.
New York: Stein and Day, 1979, xi. (said exact figure unknown, but
estimated 3.5 million.) 

Billig, Joseph. Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du Reich
hitlerien. Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973. pp 101-102.
(2 million) 

Dawidowicz, Lucy. The War Against the Jews. New York: Bantam Books,
1979, p 191. (1.1 million) 

Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974. p 855.
(1 to 2.5 million) 

Friedman, Filip. This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp.
Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich. London: The
United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. (from four to five million.) 

Gilbert, Martin. Atlas of the Holocaust. New York: Pergamon Press,
1988. (Total Polish dead at 3 million.) 

Hilberg, Raul. The Destruction of the European Jews. Chicago:
Quadrangle Books, 1961, 572. (1 million) 

Hoss, Rudolf. Death Dealer: The Memoirs of the SS Kommandant of
Auschwitz. ed. by Steven J. Palusky, transl. by Andrew Pollinger.
Buffalo: Prometheus Books, 1992, p 391 (1,130,000 total.) 

Kamenetksy, Ihor. Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe. New Haven:
College and University Press, 1961. p174 (About 2.5 milion) 

Kogon, Eugene. Der SS Staat. Berlin, 1974, 157. (3.5 to 4.5 million.) 

Piper, Franciszek. "The Number of Victims" in Anatomy of the Auschwitz
Death Camp. Washington D.C and Bloomington: United States Holocaust
Memorial Museum and Indiana University Press, 1994. Chapter Four. (1.1
million) 

Polaikov, Leon. Harvest of Hate Syracuse: Syracuse University Press,
1956, 202. (2.3 million)

Reitlinger, Gerald. The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the
Jews of Europe, 1939-1945. South Brunswick: T. Yoseloff, 1968, 500.
(Between 800,000 and 900,000) 

Sweibocka, Teresa. Auschwitz: A History in Photographs. Bloomington
and Warsaw: Indiana University Press and Ksiazka I Wiedza, 1993,
287-288. (1.1 to 1.5 million) 

Weiss, A. "Categories of Camps, Their character and Role in the
Execution of the Final Solution of the Jewish Question," in The Nazi
Concentration Camps, Jerusalem: Yad Veshem, 1984,
132. (1.2 to 2.5 million.) 

Wellers, Georges. "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au camp
d'Auschwitz" Le Monde Juif, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, (1.6 million.) 

Appendix B: Studies from Poland, former East Germany, and former
Czechoslovakia These generally cite the findings of the Soviet
Commission (four million), the Supreme National
Tribunal in Poland (2.8 to 4.0 million) or the testimony of Auschwitz
Kommandant Rudolf Hoss.

"Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz," in Auschwitz: Geschichte
und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers. Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt,
1980, 211. (2.5 to 4.0 million) 

Czech, D. "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte," in
Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Konzentrationslagers.
Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42. (2.5 to
4 million) 

Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof. Resistance in the Nazi concentration camps,
1933-1945. Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982, 44. (2.5 -
4 million) 

Madajczyk, Czeslaw. Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce; okupacja
Polski, 1939-1945. Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe, 1970, 293-94.
(2.8 to 4 million) 

Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
encyklopedyczny. Warsaw: Panst. Wydaw. Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369. (2.5 to
4 million.) 


The Nizkor Project 
webmaster@nizkor.org 
========================================================================

	If we should recall the first lines on the URL page:

                  "Deceit & Misrepresentation 
              The Techniques of Holocaust Denial"

	What is obvious is that most of the those figures that are
presented by Nizkor, to show that people never professed, alleged or
claimed that more than a million or so Jews died at Auschwitz, were
written from around 1980 and on.

	The Auschwitz museum started working on the revision around the
same time. They arrived at the lower number in 1986. The lower figure
wasn't officially released to the public until 1993 or so.

	Nizkor cites books mostly written after the revision.

	Nizkor carries a seperate listing for "Western" sources and one
for Poland and Russia. This fits in with the common theme of blaming
the initial number on them.

	Regardless, what Nizkor gives doesn't mean anything in lieu of
the myriad of other examples that show the old figure at Auschwitz was
part of the reckoning to arrive at the 6,000,000 figure.  

	The 4,000,000 figure is one that could be found by thousands in
media sources with plenty of them saying 3,000,000 of them were
Jewish.

	How come no one would let them know about the gross
exaggerations?

	If the Jewish number was always founded on the lower number
currently cited, how did it come to be so oft cited as way more?

	Really, who is it that is pushy pushing the Holocaust story? It's
not the Poles or Russians.

	The Holocaust is a Jewish story.	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:05 PST 1996
Article: 87896 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:55:12 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <32d3409f.15993610@199.0.216.204>
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>>   Marty Kelley  writes:
>>  On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>  
>>  > 
>>  > >	Which proves nothing about "Gandhi". Going by his writing style,
>>  > >"Gandhi" is obviously a Jew. 
>>  > 
>>  > 	The same goes for "McFee".
>>  
>>  Oooh, that's a new one, Mr. Moran--could you explain how you can tell what
>>  people's ethnic/religious backgrounds are by their writing style?  This
>>  will no doubt be of great use to Science.
>>  
>>  ----------------------
>>  Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>>     
>>  "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
>>  When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
>>  			--Dom Helder Camara
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>Rahter than go through all that, perhaps Mr. McFee and Mr. Gandhi shall answer
>the question directly.

	Blackmore, you forgot to put the little "s around the names. It
should read Mr."McFee" and Mr."Gandhi".


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:06 PST 1996
Article: 87977 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Certain Perspective
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:48:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>#         Six million Jews killed?
>#
># If we could line up that many people in rows, toe to heal
># and ten across, the whole line would be about a hundred
># miles long.
>
>Sigh. Tommy, Stalin's regime is alleged to have killed more
>than six million people. I guess you're trying to say, in your
>own, very "special" way, that six million is such a large
>number that it cannot be believed. Why don't you also deny 
>Stalin's atrocities, then?

	The Holocaust number is presented on a continuous basis in and on
our medias. The details are being gone over. The details don't support
the number. If and when any Soviet 6,000,000+ number comes to be a
predominate topic in our press and is used for purposes of extortion,
then maybe it will need some investigation. In the mean time, go out
and take a spin. 

>-Danny Keren.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:07 PST 1996
Article: 87983 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Murder of Priests in Dachau
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:56:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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>>  	Here we go again.
>
>	In other words, l'il tommy is about to make an ass of himself again.
>  
>>  	What, no rabbis?
>
>	The reason for this compliation has previously been posted.  Are you 
>telling us:
>
>	1.  That you did not read it?
>
>	2.  That you did not understand it?
>
>	3.  That you just feel like making an ass of yourself again?
>
>	Choose one.

	Okay I read it again, and I still couldn't find any reference to
any rabbis.

>	--YFE
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:07 PST 1996
Article: 88005 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Brought to you by a synagogue
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 16:04:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 36
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	The following is a post "'Tickle me Grosvenor' dolls" posted by
"McVay", "Director" of Nizkor, the website run by a synagogue.
=====================================================================

"Three mint condition "Tickle Me Grosvenor" dolls, just in time for
Christmas. These ugly little toys show the selfsame fat little bigot
featured in so many UseNet newsgroups.

Tickle the ugly little doll's tummy, and thrill to the sounds of
classic ignorance and bigotry:

"I am intolerant of some subhuman types, ho ho ho!"

"We are fed up paying hundreds of millions just for the parasites
of Quebec, ho ho ho!"

"Sounds like you are one of the Jewish faggots, dying of AIDS, ho
ho ho!"

"May you rot in pain for being the Jewish lying bastard you are,
ho ho ho!"

Yes, folks, no longer do you have to visit
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/grosvenor-william to hear
these dulcet tones... now you can have them for a tickle....

Don't delay! These Tickle Me Grosvenor dolls can't last.... also
great for swatting flies.... offers to $750.00 each, Singapore
dollars."

-- 
Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
-----------------------| Remember John Hron
                       |--------------------------------------
     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 24 08:26:08 PST 1996
Article: 88079 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Racism' in Australia
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 01:19:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <32c52ed6.36874832@199.0.216.204>
References: <56cpto$cj9@rockall.cc.strath.ac.uk> <32a7265a.11505015@news.demon.co.uk>  <32ad0c6b.10517074@news.demon.co.uk>  <32add30c.85919@pubnews.demon.co.uk>  <32b2ef07.6607202@news.gte.net> <32bff3b5.647037@news.demon.co.uk>
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>On 13 Dec 1996 12:40:11 -0500, karlpov@access2.digex.net (Charles R.L.
>Power) wrote:
>>
>>>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:

	(See original post.)

>Fergus McClelland

	There are also Christian scholar opinions that some of the Bible,
"Proverbs", came from some Egyptian stuff predating the
archeologically recognized date for Hebrews by a couple of thousand
years.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:42 PST 1996
Article: 88240 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematoria used for MURDER?????
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 01:16:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32c42e61.36758391@199.0.216.204>
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	I knew as soon as I saw your post folk would be lining up to set
you straight.
	We can take notice that it is exclusively aimed at your
misunderstanding about the word "crematorium". Of course a crematorium
is a crematorium, a place for incinerating people. Some how, and for
some reason the word in Holocaust vernacular means the whole kit and
kaboodle, from gassing to cremation. 

	I would say the word became the term in order to avoid some other
more menacing word or term. Perhaps it got started way back when they
were identifying the buildings as the places of cremation and then
someone said 'Hey, where are the gas chambers?'.

	Aside from your understandable misconception, under the
circumstances, the other points you made still stand. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:43 PST 1996
Article: 88242 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish justice
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 01:14:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <32c32e54.36745264@199.0.216.204>
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>	It is more correct to say that he subborned perjury from 40 jews.
>Of couse neither he nor they were ever prosecuted for their crimes.
>It would incite anti-semitism to show what jews actually do.  
>
>	And people wonder where YFE gets his lying ways. Obviously he is a
>member of the primitive tribe that tell any lie, commit any perjury,
>to satisfy their blood lust against the innocent.  Of course the
>innocent has to be goy.  They "forgive" the sonderkommandos because
>they are fellow bloodlusting tribesmen.  

	Giwer, .....


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:44 PST 1996
Article: 88412 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1945 fact, now non-fact, in fact - a lie.
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:31:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
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	This is the same testimony broken down into its components.

"The second building [at Treblinka],
three chambers
boiler-room. 
steam
boilers
pipes
chambers
terracotta floors
slippery
victims
strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected afterwards,
women and children first ...
driven into the death chambers ...
rifle butts ...
whipping ...
kicking ...
Many slipped and fell ...
stumbled over them.
Small children were simply thrown inside ...

After being filled up to capacity the chambers
were hermetically closed and steam was let in. In a few minutes all
was over."
======================================================================

	So what we have is an account given that has a number of
component details.
	The "steam" aspect of the account is the key component that makes
the account false, prima facie like. This in no way makes it an
exception out of the rest of the account. We have to accept that if
the steam component goes, then so do the "boilers", boiler-room",
"pipes" and then the "slippery"/"floors", then the "chambers", and
even the "second building". We have to recognize that all the rest of
the account was false also, the "victims", the "woman and children
first", "rifle butts", "whips" and "kicking".

	Every single word a lie.     


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:44 PST 1996
Article: 88417 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:11:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 11
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	Good straight forward logic. 

>The ultimate truth is that if there was one shred of evidence that the
>"Holocaust" actually happened, there wouldn't be an alt.revisionist
>newsgroup. 

	Meaning to say, if there was one shred, the story wouldn't be up
for dispute.




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:45 PST 1996
Article: 88420 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT I BELIEVE
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:15:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <32c636ee.2965400@199.0.216.204>
References: <19961220023800.VAA26902@ladder01.news.aol.com> <19961220023800.VAA26902@ladder01.news.aol.com>  <32bfa1a8.733303@199.0.216.204> <59pn8o$tv8$10@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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>In message <32bfa1a8.733303@199.0.216.204> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>writes:
>:>
>
>:>>"The two are absolutely inseperable" [sic] -- in other words,
>:>>to deny the gas chambers is to deny the Holocaust.
>:>>
>:>>True or false, Mr. Widmann?
>:>>
>:>
>:>> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>:>
>:>	Jamie, is that you? What has Hilary done with McVay?




>How's the wife and kids and grandchildren, zeyde?

>Gord McFee

	Why do you ask?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:46 PST 1996
Article: 88431 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:29:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <32c7383a.3297037@199.0.216.204>
References: <32c29d50.1898317@199.0.216.204> <32c108bd.11375375@news.srv.ualberta.ca><32c29d50.1898317@199.0.216.204> <32c108bd.11375375@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <32c1a221.854907@199.0.216.204> <59pn7k$tv8$5@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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Moran:
>:>	The fact is, Holocaustic folk do 'respond' to my posts. It might
>:>be in their own little way, and it may not have anything to do with
>:>the material posted, it may be one out of ten, but the main reason
>:>they don't respond to most is because they know that they will fall in
>:>the cross fire and  it will only lead to the topic being even more
>:>clarified and expanded on.  


"McFee":
>No Tom, the fact is that people don't respond to your claptrap because it is
>so incredibly stupid and pointless.  You never engage in debate in any
>event--simply vomit out any antisemitic garbage that is fed you.  You are
>simply irrelevant.  That is why no one responds to you.

	Thus we have Mr."McFee" responding, in his "own little way".

	How many other times in the last two weeks have you 'responded'
in your own little way to one of Moran's posts?

	Is it 10, 15 times, what? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:47 PST 1996
Article: 88450 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: False witnesses? - No problem
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 15:02:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	When he first gave his eyewitness testimony for the general
Holocaust story, years ago, Arnold Freedman swore he had seen this and
that. This was his first false witness testimony.

	When he tried to get away with it a second time, as a witness for
the prosecution, to find a man guilty, he fell apart when held
accountable by persons not of his own choosing. 

	1/12/85 
     According to the Toronto Globe and Mail, Arnold Friedman swore
under oath that he had seen "fourteen foot flames" shooting out of the
chimneys of crematorium at Auschwitz, and that he was able to tell
whether the Nazis were burning fat Jewish Hungarians or skinnyJewish
Poles by looking at the different colors of the smoke and
flames coming out of the crematorium. On cross-examination, however,
Mr. Friedman reversed himself upon being presented with details of
crematorium operation, and was forced to agree that perhaps Jews were
not being burned in crematoria buildings. Mr. Friedman then made the
startling confession that his entire testimony was based on what he
had been told by others. 


	A false witness is a false witness is a false witness, and by any
other name, reeks just as putrid.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:47 PST 1996
Article: 88466 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:31:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Moran:
>:>	The fact is, Holocaustic folk do 'respond' to my posts. It might
>:>be in their own little way, and it may not have anything to do with
>:>the material posted, it may be one out of ten, but the main reason
>:>they don't respond to most is because they know that they will fall in
>:>the cross fire and  it will only lead to the topic being even more
>:>clarified and expanded on.  


"McFee":
>No Tom, the fact is that people don't respond to your claptrap because it is
>so incredibly stupid and pointless.  You never engage in debate in any
>event--simply vomit out any antisemitic garbage that is fed you.  You are
>simply irrelevant.  That is why no one responds to you.

>Gord McFee

	Mr."McFee", how would anyone know what you say here is true or
not?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:48 PST 1996
Article: 88481 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Grabner Ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening'
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 14:02:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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> From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
>[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
>me to pour Zyklon B .......


>   * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz

	This testimony shows to what extremes the takers of the
'confessions' had to resort to.

	Here we have a book keeper giving his 'confession'.

	As it goes, he says that he was called on becasue some of the
others didn't show up for work. Now we must wonder why Grabner didn't
call on one of the many SS and other Germans who over saw the camp of
100,000 instead of opting to have a book keeper help him.

	And what about Grabner himself? "Head of the Political
Department".

	Idiotic. Thats Holocaust testimony for you.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 14:32:49 PST 1996
Article: 88505 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'There was no longer any escape'
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 18:35:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Testimony of Hans-Heintz Schutt, SS-officer at Sobibor
>[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 240]
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Getting the detainees into the gas chambers did not always proceed
>smoothly. The detainees would shout and weep and they often refused to 
>get inside. The guards helped them on by violence. These guards were
>Ukrainian volunteers who were under the authority of members of
>the SS Kommando. Members of the SS held key positions in the camp, i.e.
>one SS man oversaw the unloading, a further SS man led the detainees
>into the reception camp, a further SS man was responsible for leading
>the detainees to the undressing area, a further SS man oversaw the
>confiscation of valuables and a further member of the Kommando had
>to drive the detainees into the so-called tube which led to the
>extermination camp. Once they were inside the so-called tube, which
>led them from the hut to the extermination camp, there was no longer
>any escape.

	After being loaded in rail cars and shipped hundreds of miles,
and after unloading at the "Treblinka" camp, and after entering into
gates and behind barbed wire fences, and after having to undress, it
was not until they started to go through the "Tube" when suddenly
"there was no longer any escape".



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 20:35:38 PST 1996
Article: 88600 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewishness is a "gift"
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:33:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Random House Dictionary

	"gift" - no.4, a special ability or capacity; a talent.

	This would be the application of what Leonard Nemoy speaks of in
his go at bat under a continuously placed ad by the "The American
Jewish Committee" - "What Being Jewish Means To Me".

	"Being Jewish is a gift, not a burden. I treasure that identity."


	Jews make up less than 3% of the American population, and yet
they do the 100% of the crowing about how wonderful they are, right in
the national medias.

	Leonard Nemoy is a ethnocentric racist.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 20:35:39 PST 1996
Article: 88605 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Eyewitness - I witness - I witnessed not
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:52:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	        Other alternate titles for this could be,

       'What happens when Holocaust authors and eyewitnesses are
subjected to cross examination and are made to stand accountable.'

                          and/or

	'Why the Holocaust perpetuation league is so obsessed with
stamping out open public discussion on the valididty of the Holocaust
story.' 


	Holocaust heavyweight Rudolf Vrba, under cross-examination in a
Canadian courtroom, states under oath that 150,000 French Jews were
gassed at Auschwitz, in spite of the fact that the entire number of
Jews deported from France were only 75,721. Vrba claims he arrived at
his count "scientifically" by having listened to the language spoken
by the inmates at Auschwitz and examining their luggage (!). The
author of "I Cannot Forgive" next confessed that his book was "an
artistic picture ... not a document for a court," in spite of the fact
that Vrba's testimony was crucial to both the War Refugee Board and
the Auschwitz Trials in West Germany. Vrba further admitted that his
written and pictorial descriptions of Auschwitz crematoria were a
result of guessing, based on "what I heard it might look like."
      
	We can only imagine what would come about if all the Holocaust
eyewitnesses were held to stand accountable.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 20:35:40 PST 1996
Article: 88611 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish justice
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:48:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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4/13/83: 
     The Toronto Star recounts the story of Frank Walus, who was
fingered by Simon Wiesenthal first as a Gestapo collaborator, then
later as a member of the Gestapo. Twelve eyewitnesses swore Walus was
a mass-murderer who had stomped a pregnant Jew to death. Forty
eyewitnesses placed Walus at the concentration camp in Kielce, Poland,
during the war. At the trial, however, it was established that
Walus was never at the camp, never a member of the Gestapo, never a
member of the SS, and that in fact all of Wiesenthal's charges against
Walus were fabrications. This prompted the US Justice Department to
drop all charges, issue an apology, and pay Walus $34,000 to help
offset his legal fees. 


	How evident the Jewish cohesion is when it comes to trying to
advance a Jewish cause. Imagine, Simon Wiesenthal being able to muster
up 40 false witnesses.

	With the current mass extortion scheme now being directed towards
the Swiss in the form of claims they are holding Nazi gold and $$$$$,
the Jewish cohesion has been able to muster up 3,000 claimants to the
money.

	Is there any other ethnic faction in the world that would do
this?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 20:35:40 PST 1996
Article: 88614 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prof. Pfannenstiel Testifies About Belzec Death Camp
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:23:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <32bd4413.308348@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>## Mr.Keren, poster of this eyewitness testimony, could you expand
>## on what this witness meant by, "When I asked him where the spinning
>## materials came from, he told me proudly that they had come from the
>## Jews". 
>## 
>##        If one had an aerial photograph or eyewitness plan of this
>## Belzec, could you explain where these spinning mills would have 
>been?  
>## 
>##        The testimony also states Globocnik told him, "He also 
>mentioned
>## that work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production".
>## Now we haven't any other information on this spinning industry at this
>## time, said to have taken place at Belzec but, "considerably
>## outstrip(ing)" the German spinning industry seems quite awesome 
>and we
>## should think there should be some kind of record of the Belzec
>## industry being put together, machines, shipping whatever and records
>## of distribution of the finished spinning product. Do you know if there
>## is any record of this?
>
># Mr.(Dr.)Keren?
>
>Well, Tommy, why don't you do something productive for a change,
>and study this matter? You could start by writing the "Institute
>for Contemporary History" in Munich, for instance.
>
>Why should I do your work for you, Tommy? 
>
>BTW, I assume that the spinning mills were not at the death camp
>itself, but in the town of Belzec.
>
>But, once again: if you're interested in this topic, why don't
>you do some research yourself?
>
># Mr.(Dr.)Keren?
>
>Is this "Mr.(Dr.)" thing supposed to insult me, Tommy? You're 
>60-years-old, right? Can you possibly start acting your age?
>
>Or is that old inferiority complex kicking into gear again, Tommy?

	Sorry. One of your friends suggested, "Doctor Keren to you zeyde"
instead of the usual "Mr.Keren", and sometimes it's not really clear
what your academic credentials may be.

	Anyway, you say go find out yourself? 

	But aren't you interested in knowing what the witness meant by:
"When I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me
proudly that they had come from the Jews".

	What do you think he was talking about? Just take a guess. Was
it, hair? Theorizing on what other parts of the human body would be
candidates for spinning would be just too gruesome to go through out
here, and hair is the most likely as to what the witness Prof. P. was
referring to. Could the hair taken from the victims be enough to
supply a spinning industry that surpassed all of Germany's production?

	Is human hair good for spinning? 

	Take some cotton out of a pill bottle, pull out a little wisp,
roll it between your fingers, then pull out a little more and roll
that, continue this and a thread is made. 

	Now try this with human hair. It won't work. (Experiment not
suggested for people with crew cuts.) Part of the genetic designated
structure of human hair includes a component that adds to the design
to not let it happen. 

	The eyewitness testimony is a total fabrication. A joke. 

	   

	

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 21:12:27 PST 1996
Article: 88660 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another synagogue sponsored whatever
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 23:48:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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In article , 
dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

[a besotted loser had explored the limits of his vocabulary thus...]

># Wadda fuckin kike ethnic!!! 
># Da widdle ethnic whines again.
># whadda fuckin' kike!!!!
># Da po widdle intimidated etnic posts again.  What a lying
># kike, jew shyster.

>Matt posts dozens of messages like these, every day. He copies
>someone's article, adds a line or two like the ones above, and posts.

>This is indeed "Holocaust revisionism" at its best. Matt is
>truly a "leading revisionist scholar".

One wonders what the judge will think, when Mr. Giwer explains
his behavior under oath? Will he sputter "But you knew that, your
honour!" when asked a question?

Will he ask the magistrate if he is a "lying kike, jew shyster?"
Will he ask the magistrate if he is a "widdle whining ethnic?"
Will he ask the magistrate if he is a "fuckin' kike?"

This this is the selfsame besotted, loudmouthed blowhard that tucked 
his tail firmly between his legs (there being little there to impede 
this process) and bravely fled when offered a golden opportunity to 
back up his mouth with his chequebook.

That is, of course, because he isn't interested in discussing
history - or anything else. He's akin to the small child,
stomping his feet on the floor and demanding attention. And,
as he's demonstrated in the past with his infantile behavior,
he will say absolutely anything in order to provoke an
argument - i.e., to get attention.

Tiring of his endless stream of evasions, insults and outright
lies, I offered him an opportunity to put his money where his
mouth was, and demonstrate that he actually _believed_ the
crap he serves up as his own pompous brand of historical "reality."

I offered to let an independent forensics lab determine the
issue, at, I might add, my expense if it should determine that
this crude fellow was correct.

What prompted his immediate "advance to the rear," of course,
was the other side of the coin - that he would have to meet
the cost, as a donation to the Nizkor Project, if his foolish
contention turned out, as it must, to be completely, utterly 
worthless. At that point, hoisted firmly on his own petard, 
he ran like the cowardly bully he daily proves himself to be.

For the details of my offer, I invite you to peruse
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/mcvay-ken/put-up-shut-up.html

I further invite you, and anyone else among the estimated
70-Million internet users, to regularly and routinely remind
this prevaricating failure of a man of his cowardice by
providing references to the URL cited, and to the offer he so
obviously dreads.

This coward, Matt Giwer, is, as far as I can determine, a troller
whose only
interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
to
see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read
and
respond.  

For many here, no greater compliment can accrue than to be insulted by

this contemptable husk of a man.

For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
URL
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
URL http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
URL http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/

Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special 
newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately 
ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.


-- 
Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
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From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Dec 25 21:12:28 PST 1996
Article: 88666 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What's the matter with Moron?
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:32:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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>In message <32bc99f2.1036050@199.0.216.204> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran)Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:05:15 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>>In message <32bd18c8.6496913@199.0.216.204> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>:>>moran)Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:28:51 GMT writes:
>:>>:>
>:>>:>
>:>>:>The Best of Nizkor; 
>:>>
>:>>How's the wife and kids, zeyde?
>:>
>:>	"McFee", since we have a documented history of being of opposite
>:>veiws, and many examples of uptight reaction from yourself, I will ask
>:>you right now, why do ask "How's the wife and kids?"?
>
>Does it bug you that much Tommie?

	Why do you ask? Is it supposed to?

>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:48 PST 1996
Article: 88713 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irish Potato Famine
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 15:21:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <32bff4c5.491249@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>
>>	
>>	Dear England,
>>
>>	My great great grand father told my great grand father, that his
>>great, great, great grand father had told someone that he had
>>deposited some money and gold in the Bank of England in 1493. I
>>believe the amount was said to have been about 3 million pounds. I
>>figure with interests this amount should come out to about
>>$90,000,000,000 and I as the lone survivor am seeking restitution.
>>    As you know, England has a long history of anti-Pattyism and I
>>believe you should fork over the full amount as to the calculations.
>>Don't force me to get a whole bunch of Patties together and make a big
>>stink about your history of anti-Pattyism.
>>                                                       Moran 
>
>
>Dear Sir Thomas,
>I was very sorry to hear of your plight and being duly authorized by
>England to deal with this matter I must ask that you produce a few eye
>witness statements as to the original deposit, just as a matter of
>form. A minor point, the Bank of England wasn't actually incorporated
>at that date, but don't let this tiny detail deter you from your
>claim. After all, we did give a country to some wandering group of
>vagabonds about half a century ago on less evidence than you have so
>far provided! 
>During my initial investigations of your family's horrendous
>sufferings I discovered that one of your great, great, great etc
>grandparents, Perigrine Pontius Pilatus Moran, was knighted for his
>extraordinary bravery in defence of his King and the realm. This
>knighthood was unique, in that it is hereditary.  You will therefore
>be pleased, I am sure, Sir Thomas, to know that you should henceforth
>always be correctly addressed by your title, as should ever have been
>done.
>I beg to remain Sir,
>Your most obedient servant,
>
>Fergus McClelland

	In spite of all the niceties, I can see your trying to set me up
to take less than the $90,000,000,000 I demand. As an agent for the
anti-Patty state of England, I would tell you I would settle for just
$90,000,000 if you can get it going right away, before any revisions
might come to prevail against my position. Why should either of us
take a chance?
 
                                                       Moran 




From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:50 PST 1996
Article: 88715 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT I BELIEVE
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 17:08:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <32d26a44.10084944@199.0.216.204>
References: <19961220023800.VAA26902@ladder01.news.aol.com> <19961221215800.QAA03284@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32bc6c60.3936694@news.gte.net> 
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>octagon@septa.gon (Up front) writes:
>
># It is not a matter of what anyone believes.  It is
># a fact there is no physical evidence for gassing and
># no physical evidence of millions of bodies to support
># assertions about what happened.
>
>As noted here, many times, the physical evidence to the
>Holocaust includes:
>
> - Many documents and photographs.
>
> - Huge numbers of corpses and human remains in some of the camps.
>
> - Some of the gas chambers, with cyanide traces on their walls.
>
> - Some of the mass graves, discovered after the war.

	If you have it, present it. Otherwise whatever you say here has
nothing. It is nothing more than proclamation.

>Thus, there is far greater physical evidence for the Holocaust
>than for:
>
> - The bombing of Dresden.
>
> - The death of German civilians after the war.
>
> - Stalin's atrocities.
>
>It's very simple. It should be clear to any rational person. But
>"Holocaust revisionists" are not rational people. See below.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>

This is the "below" which shows "Holocaust revisionists" ["s"] are not
rational.

>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, "leading
>revisionist" Matt Giwer suggested that documents about a "gas
>chamber" and "gassing cellar" in the Birkenau crematoriums don't
>prove anything, as they were really due to "a morbid sense of 
>humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:51 PST 1996
Article: 88716 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:55:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <32d2409c.15990589@199.0.216.204>
References: <32B4781E.1383@fred.net> <32b86bd4.3839861@199.0.216.204> <32bd7134.5216501@199.0.216.204><32B4781E.1383@fred.net> <32b86bd4.3839861@199.0.216.204> <32bd7134.5216501@199.0.216.204> <32bf73b3.5855114@199.0.216.204> <5979qm$tti$20@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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>In message <32bf73b3.5855114@199.0.216.204> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran)Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:09:41 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>>>>Dear Readers, 
>:>>>>
>:>>>>Our interdisciplinary team has developed a unit on Tolerance and the
>:>>>>Holocaust entitled "The Beast Within." The web page that grew from this
>:>>>>unit has been on our website for the past year at
>:>>>>http://www.fred.net/nhhs/html/beast.htm.
>:>>
>:>>
>:>>>          [ "The world must/should/needs to know ..." ]
>:>>
>:>>	I would ask the instructor, George Cassutto Teacher of Social
>:>>Studies North Hagerstown High School (MD) if he would do a survey of
>:>>his students and see what they think about the simple question -
>:>>
>:>>	Does the world have the right to question existing historical
>:>>accounts?
>:>
>:>	My second question would be to inquire if any of the students are
>:>aware that many things that were once claimed about this Holocaust are
>:>now recognized as being untrue?
>
>Moron has been fed another lie, which he stupidly parrots.
>
>How's the wife and kids, zeyde?

	Why do you ask, "McFee"?

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:52 PST 1996
Article: 88717 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Certain Perspective
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:55:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <32d14099.15987623@199.0.216.204>
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>In message <32bf0cf2.2566041@199.0.216.204> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran)Wed, 18 Dec 1996 15:25:45 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>
>:>	Six million Jews killed?
>:>
>:>If we could line up that many people in rows, toe to heal and ten
>:>across, the whole line would be about a hundred miles long.
>
>Gee zeyde, why is it that so many of you guys use "heal" where "heel" is the
>correct word?  Better get to your handler quick and tell him to clean up his
>act.
>
>:>If you started at one end in a car and drove along side these ten rows
>:>at 60 miles an hour, it would take you about an hour and a half before
>:>you got to the other end.
>:>
>:>Think about that the next time you take a spin.  
==========================================================================
>BTW, how are the wife and kids, zeyde?

	Why do you ask, "McFee"?

>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:52 PST 1996
Article: 88718 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Away with the Christmas tree in with the Star of David
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:54:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <32cf4089.15972025@199.0.216.204>
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	The bottom line summary of this story is, Jews became upset with
a Christmas tree being in an American class room and mustered up a
foot stompin, huff and puff, bluster of selfrighteousness and out
raged indignation and when it was all over the Christmas tree was gone
and a glittering Star of David was on the wall.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:53 PST 1996
Article: 88719 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L.A.Times headlines, one thing, the copy another
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:55:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <32d540a3.15998279@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <32bdc3d3.12720959@199.0.216.204> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>>Subject: L.A.Times headlines, one thing, the copy another
>>Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 16:50:34 GMT
>
>>        
>>           "GOP Lawmakers Support Israel's Security Policy"
>>                      L.A.Times, Dec.20, 1996
>
>>        "GOP Law Makers ..." Who? Two. Jesse Helms and Benjamin Gilman.
>
>>        "...Israel's Security Policy"? Settlements.
>
>That's certainly part of it.  Another part of it is not rewarding Arab 
>terrorism, and in fact giving the (allegedly moderate) Arabs running the West 
>Bank and Gaza some obvious consequences of permitting or perhaps encouraging 
>such behavior.

	Now there's a Jewish clone statement.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:54 PST 1996
Article: 88720 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Away with the Christmas tree in with the Star of David
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:55:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 6
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	A big menorah is planted outside the Kenesset building (Israeli
government). True enforcement of the U.S. seperation of church and
state would be to cease giving the rotten little state any kind of aid
whatsoever. Cut them off. Sever all ties. Let the parasitic maggots
sway in the wind. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:55 PST 1996
Article: 88721 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish justice
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 16:41:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>
>
 


> "Twelve eyewitnesses swore Walus was a mass-murderer who had
> stomped a pregnant Jew to death."

	We lieu of the exposure that the witnesses mustered up by Simon
Wiesnthal were all liars, we would have to recognize also that no
pregnant woman was "stomped to death".


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:55 PST 1996
Article: 88722 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:16:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <32c1a221.854907@199.0.216.204>
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>In <32c29d50.1898317@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>>	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
>>declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
>>the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Alternatively, people who do not answer Tom Moran's posts may simply
>have written him off as an impenetrably stupid loudmouth.

> John Morris                                

	I take it to mean you think this was posted as a complaint that
Holocaustic folk don't respond to my posts? It has nothing to do with
anyone out here, directly. It is intended to mean, among others, The
Simon Wiesenthal Center, the Anti-Defamation League, the World Jewish
Congress and company. What they prefer. 

	The fact is, Holocaustic folk do 'respond' to my posts. It might
be in their own little way, and it may not have anything to do with
the material posted, it may be one out of ten, but the main reason
they don't respond to most is because they know that they will fall in
the cross fire and  it will only lead to the topic being even more
clarified and expanded on.  

	And in the end run, why should they, you, be concerned about
convincing me? I don't post the stuff out here for you. I post if for
the random viewer. Now if I'm posting stuff out here for the world,
and you don't like it, you should be right there undoing it, directly,
instead of making up an alibi for any non-responding.

	

	Directly.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:56 PST 1996
Article: 88723 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khatyn?  Katyn?
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 16:22:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <32c6aea6.4059067@199.0.216.204>
References: <851107279.546635@mn8> <32c1eded.2764391@news.inetport.com> <32c24745.1126346@199.0.216.204> <32c35639.3710859@news.inetport.com> <59kist$3l3@mn5.swip.net>
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>[everything snipped]
>
>Thank you for your answers.  But although I realize that first of all, 
>this newsgroup focuses on the Holocaust, and secondly, WWII history has 
>become pretty distorted primarily because of the Russians, could anybody 
>tell me for instance just how many died in these places?  I have heard 
>the numbers 15,000 and 21,000 mentioned, and the fact of the 
>4000-something bodies found (I don't have the exact number in front of 
>me).  And is there any controversy between revisionists and 
>exterminationists on this one - as to what happened, I mean, and not just 
>how much of the Nuremberg Trials were fake.  
>
>Thanks,
>Dan

John C. Ball's book "Air Photo Evidence" also includes a
feature on the events of the Katyn Forest exterminations of Polish
officers committed by the Soviets. 
	The Soviets confessed to this crime in 1990. At the Nuremberg
trials they insisted on introducing it as one of the German
atrocities. The Allies acquiesced and sat back as the actual guilty
party went ahead and acted as prosecutor and judge against the Germans
for the very crime they themselves committed.

	Anyway, the material in the book gives us an insight into the
concern of the Germans about the discovery of the mass graves at the
site they were directed to by Polish citizens.

	Photos of the Germans showing the graves to a group of Allied war
prisoners, to European journalists and forensic experts. In other
words they sought to document the findings.
	
	The Germans went out of their way to disinter the bodies one at a
time for identification and then reburied them.

	Exemplifying how we can come to understand the conditions of one
thing by looking at another, the Germans also photographed the mass
graves being uncovered, the bodies being disinterred and close ups of
mummified hands still bound behind the backs of victims.

	From the photos of the uncovered graves, we get a pretty good
idea of what the conditions would be like for all those Holocaust eye
witness accounts that have hundreds of thousands of people being
killed, buried, then dug up, and then burned and reburied - at every
single camp.     
=====================================================================

	You might also try looking under "Katyn" in Nizkor files where
they have an excerpt from a book on the Nurenberg trials. The Katyn
Forest story is one that is recognized by all, even Holocaust obsessed
as being committed by the Russians. They are said to have admitted to
it in 1989.

	As to your, "... and secondly, WWII history has become pretty
distorted primarily because of the Russians", is it the Russians or
the Poles who have perpetuated any of the distortions over the years?
Were they the primary ones who initiated the mass extermiantion
claims? Or was it, and is it the Jewish community? 

	



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:57 PST 1996
Article: 88724 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish justice
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:55:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <32c4aad3.3080798@199.0.216.204>
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	Of course this is what is still taking place fifty years after
the non-fact Holocaust. Thus we should be able to see where those
testimonies at the time of relating the Holocasut non-facts were
coming from. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:58 PST 1996
Article: 88725 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prof. Pfannenstiel Testifies About Belzec Death Camp
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:15:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <32c0a1b9.751044@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># But aren't you interested in knowing what the witness meant by:
># "When I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he
># told me proudly that they had come from the Jews".
>#
># What do you think he was talking about? Just take a guess.
># Was it, hair?
>
>No, I thought he was talking about textile, which is also
>mentioned in the reports of what was looted from the
>Jews. I have posted such reports.

>But, again, if you're so interested, why don't you
>make a minimal effort to find out?

	I don't have to find out. All I have to is theorize on the
evidence given. Your the one who posted the stuff.

	You say you "thought he was talking about textiles"? The word is
"spinning", a component of textiles. Woven textiles. As far as I can
make out from your 'wording', is, you are saying the eyewitness
Professor P. means the spinning materials came from recycled Jewish
belongings?

	You say, "... which is also mentioned in the reports of what was
looted from the Jews. I have posted such reports." Are you saying
these reports mention the listed contraband as going off to be undone
and then respun? Or are you just injecting this as a possibility?

	You say you have "posted such reports"? What is the relevance of
this statement?

	Anyway, it looks like we have Mr.Keren offering up the theory
that what the witness is referring to with the word "spinning" is
really contraband clothing from Jewish victims, which was
recombobulated in some way and whatever it was it surpassed the entire
production of Germany.

	Is that about right Mr.Keren?

	Say, you don't suppose, no it couldn't be, no way, but just
maybe, maybe this whole testimony could be just another, "mistake",
like that other highly questionable account?


>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:58 PST 1996
Article: 88742 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT I BELIEVE
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:13:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>rawidmann@aol.com (RAWidmann) quoted Bradley Smith:
>
>> WHAT I BELIEVE, WHAT I DON'T, AND WHY 
>> By Bradley R. Smith
>
>[...]
>
>> Nevertheless, I no longer believe the German State pursued a plan
>> to kill all Jews or used homicidal "gassing chambers"
>> for mass murder.
>
>[...]
>
>> For half a century the gas chambers have been at the heart of
>> the holocaust story. The two are absolutely inseperable. No gas
>> chambers, no holocaust. That's the equation.
>
>"The two are absolutely inseperable" [sic] -- in other words,
>to deny the gas chambers is to deny the Holocaust.
>
>True or false, Mr. Widmann?
>

> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/

	Jamie, is that you? What has Hilary done with McVay?

	As to your conclusion above, when the gas chamber chapter goes,
so goes 99% of the rest of the story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:59 PST 1996
Article: 88769 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'There was no longer any escape'
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 18:43:55 GMT
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>Testimony of Hans-Heintz Schutt, SS-officer at Sobibor
>[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 240]
>-------------------------------------------------------------
> Once they were inside the so-called tube, which
>led them from the hut to the extermination camp, there was no longer
>any escape.

	There was also a "tube" at Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec. The
"tube" is described as a path with barbed wire fences on each side and
branches stuff in them to block out anyone seeing the victims going to
the gas chambers. We can only picture the thousands, day after day
going into the camps for anyone to see and only in the last few feet
did the Germans make arrangements to hide the activity. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Dec 26 09:03:00 PST 1996
Article: 88782 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another synagogue sponsored whatever
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 14:44:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>On Wed, 25 Dec 1996 23:48:31 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>In article , 
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>	One wonder how, should the kike ever get the balls to file a
>complaint, that it will defend "besotted" as it initiated.  One will
>have to wonder how it will explain having iniated an exchange of
>insults it will justify perjury in filing the complaint in the first
>place with the intent of involved the courts in its personal vendetta
>without cause.  

>-- Doc Benway

	Giwer, you don't have to insert something into every post, do
you?


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 27 02:14:59 PST 1996
Article: 88837 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: False witness/ethnic ethic/rock ...hard place/desperation
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 17:43:06 GMT
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	These following accounts relate eyewitness testimonies to
Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, located in Germany. Putting it in
the words of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the witnesses testify of
this camp as having "specially equipped" gassing facilities for
extermination of human beings.

	What does the Simon Wiesenthal Center have to say about
concentration/extermination camps being located inside Germany itself?

	
	Here is exactly what it has to say, in question 12 of its
"Responses to Revisionist Arguments". 

"12. Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself state that there were no
extermination camps in Germany? 

     The Nazis classified their many hundreds of concentration camps
on their basis of their primary function. In a very real sense, all
were death camps because the death of the inmates, whether through
overwork, starvation/disease, or outright murder, was ultimately
expected.

     Those sites, however, which functioned as extermination centers
(Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec, and
Chelmno), were specially equipped for the gassing of hundreds of
thousands of victims each (millions altogether). All of these camps
were located in Poland, and for good reason. Poland had far more Jews
than Germany and the rest of Western Europe combined. The Nazis also
felt that the relative remoteness of Poland's rural areas would also
minimize reports of mass murder taking place there."

 	So we can see the simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to this question
is, 'Yes' Simon Wiesenthal did "state" (admit) there were no
extermination camps in Germany.
 

	Now we are in a better position to consider the following.

Some former inmates and a few historians have claimed that Jews were
put to death in gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen. For example, an
"authoritative" work published shortly after the end of the war, A
History of World War II, informed readers: "In Belsen, [Commandant]
Kramer kept an orchestra to play him Viennese music while he watched
children torn from their mothers to be burned alive. Gas chambers
disposed of thousands of persons daily."
 

In 'Jews, God and History', Jewish historian Max Dimont wrote of
gassings at Bergen-Belsen. (note 32) A semi-official work published in
Poland in 1981 claimed that women and babies were "put to death in gas
chambers" at Belsen. 

In 1945 the Associated Press news agency reported: 

     In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the
trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and Oswiecim
[Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000 Jews, representing
the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been gassed or burned to death
in one night at the Belsen camp. 

Five decades after the camp's liberation, British army Captain Robert
Daniell recalled seeing "the gas chambers" there.

Years after the war, Robert Spitz, a Hungarian Jew, remembered taking
a shower at Belsen in February 1945: "... It was delightful. What I
didn't know then was that there were other showers in the same
building where gas came out instead of water." 

Another former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from
death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a
Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to
the [Belsen] camp gas chamber at least six times." The newspaper
account went on to relate: "Each time he survived, watching
with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him
collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't know how he was able to
survive." In an effort to explain the miracle, Peer mused: "Maybe
children resist better, I don't know." (Although Peer claimed that
"Bergen-Belsen was worse than Auschwitz," he acknowledged that he and
his younger brother and sister, who were deported to the camp in
1944, all somehow survived internment there. 
======================================================================

	Holding to the one time extensively proposed claim of
extermination camps in Germany was just too difficult to maintain and
it had to be dropped from the center of the Holocaust story down to
it's current standing.
	
	The way the Simon Wiesenthal Center puts it to introduce it's
"Answers to Revisionist Arguments" No.12, "Didn't Simon Wiesenthal
himself state that there were no extermination camps in Germany?"
could be 'Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself have to admit ...'.

	Whatever it was that brought Simon Wiesenthal to acknowledge
there were no extermination camps in Germany we don't know. But it is
obvious that when we put the testimonies to the Wiesenthal admission
we have a 'between the rock and the hard spot' situation.

	Even though he and others may have a different way of putting it,
the eyewitnesses were real authentic 'false witnesses', a conclusion
round about attested to by Simon Wiesenthal himself.

	The cruel, cruel twists of the ongoing Holocaust saga. 

	No wonder Simon Wiesenthal and Company are so desperate to incite
legislation to have Holocaust doubting made a crime.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:52 PST 1996
Article: 88858 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1945 fact, now non-fact, in fact - a lie.
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 18:12:53 GMT
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>	The "steam" aspect of the account is the key component that makes
>the account false, prima facie like. This in no way makes it an
>exception out of the rest of the account. We have to accept that if
>the steam component goes, then so do the "boilers", boiler-room",
>"pipes" and then the "slippery"/"floors", then the "chambers", and
>even the "second building". We have to recognize that all the rest of
>the account was false also, the "victims", the "woman and children
>first", "rifle butts", "whips" and "kicking".
--------------------------------------------------------------------

>	Every single word a lie.     

	Going by past experience, those who are so desperate to expound
and defend the Holocaust story as true, the conclusion would be,
'Every single word a "mistake"' instead of a lie.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:53 PST 1996
Article: 89051 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CHARGES
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:13:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>>   kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) writes:
>>  On 21 Dec 1996 11:12:25 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>
>>  >	But l'il tommy knows that this is not the case.  I am very willing to prove 
>>  >the charge of anti-Semitism before an impartial tribunal.  To this offer l'il tommy 
>has, 
>>  >when he has not lied about, refused to respond.  l'il tommy, who frequently 
>wraps 
>>  >himself in the American flag when he parades his bigotry, apparently does not 
>believe 
>>  >in that most basic of American values, the fair trial.
>
>>  >	When l'il tommy reads this statement he will, as usual, run for cover.
>
>>  >	Where could l'il tommy be hiding this time?
>
>>  >	Could it be behind the drapes in the dining room?
>
>>  Rather Moran has little inclination or need to defend against your
>>  promiscuous, Pavlovian, and predictable "revisionism=anti-Semitism"
>>  charges Yalie-poo.   
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>	Unfortunately he made the challenge for me to prove it.

	Thank you for recollecting the situation correctly. Now prove it.
Forget about all the talk of Moran turning himself in. 

	Really, could you picture Moran going down to some authority and
turning himself in? 'Ah sir, I would like to turn myself in for
anti-Semitism'.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>	Apaprently you are calling l'il tommy a liar.

	Mr.Edeiken, aren't you the one who said there was a "Deborah"
working at the Allentown Library and was holding some books that would
show Moran to be a liar when in fact no Deborah worked there?
	Are you the same Mr.Edeiken that claimed he had 16,000 relatives
exterminated by the Germans, just those on one side of the family, and
then after you were called on the whopper you posted a "retraction"?
	Is that you Mr.Edeiken?

>	Good dog, "Stele."  Thank you for agreeing with me.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:54 PST 1996
Article: 89072 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,tnn.religion.catholic
Subject: Re: Beware of j*w Infiltrators Of Christian Newsgroups
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 16:57:47 GMT
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>Any one wrote:
>
>{ lots of historical revisionisms and other Nazi propaganda snipped }
>
>> I am sorry to say it, but I have you pegged as a sleeper with
>> the enemy.
>
>I sleep comfortably knowing that I follow my Lord and God Jesus
>Christ.  I sleep well knowing that I am a member of his church.
>I sleep well knowing that my brothers, the Jews, are my elder
>brothers in the faith.  I sleep just fine, thank you, knowing that
>the Abrahamic covenant remains in force with the Jews.
>
>If sleeping with God is sleeping with the enemy, so be it.  May the
>God of light shed his light on you and free you from your ignorance.
>
>The Last Word on this Subject.
>
>David

	Evidently, David approves unconditionally with all things
Jewish/Zionist activity, whatever it may be, regardless. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Dec 28 22:44:27 PST 1996
Article: 89634 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Horror stories and such
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 01:00:09 GMT
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>Quoted by Robert Jay Lifton, The Nazi Doctors, Basic Books, 1986,
>p.185
>                 
>     "After a while I heard the sound of piercing screams, banging
>against the door, and also moaning and wailing. People began to cough.
>Their coughing grew worse from minute to minute, a sign that the gas
>had started to act. Then the clamor began to subside and to change to
>a many-voiced dull rattle, drowned out now and then by coughing..."  
>
>	This of course is interesting but coughing is not a symptom to
>cyanide poisoning.  Other than that it makes a fine story to tell
>around the campfire.  
>
>
>
>-- Doc Tor

	He says the people all started to cough? Well this is not what
any of the other eyewitness accounts said about any of the other
gassings, carbon monoxide or pellets. It's just something this
particular eye witness imagined they might have done.

>=====
>If history has taught us anything it is that history will be revised.
>---
>Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always relying on facts and figures.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 07:33:49 PST 1996
Article: 89784 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'All together, six gas chambers were active'
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 14:44:30 GMT
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>Testimony of SS Oberscharfuehrer Heinrich Matthes about Treblinka
>[Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard 
>Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 121]
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>During the entire time I was in Treblinka, I served in the upper camp.
>The upper camp was that part of Treblinka with the gas chambers,
>where the Jews were killed and their corpses laid in large pits and
>later burned.
>
>About fourteen Germans carried out services in the upper camp. There
>were two Ukrainians permanently in the upper camp. One of them was
>called Nikolai, the other was a short man, I don't remember his name...
>These two Ukrainians who lived in the upper camp served in the gas
>chambers. They also took care of the engine room when Fritz Schmidt
>was absent. Usually this Schmidt was in charge of the engine room. In
>my opinion, as a civilian he was either a mechanic or a driver...

	Sixteen men altogether, to usher through millions?
And what happened to the other names mentioned in other eyewitness
testimony?

>All together, six gas chambers were active. According to my estimate,
>about 300 people could enter each gas chamber. The people went into
>the gas chamber without resistance. Those who were at the end, the
>Ukrainian guards had to push inside. I personally saw how the
>Ukrainians pushed the people with their rifle butts...

	Sometimes they resisted, sometimes they didn't. Evidently the two
Ukrainians were able to herd thousands into he chambers.

>The gas chambers were closed for about thirty minutes. Then Schmidt
>stopped the gassing, and the two Ukrainians who were in the engine
>room opened the gas chambers from the other side.

	Is this it? The full testimony? What happened after the two
Ukrainians opened the rear doors? Did the two unload the thousands?
Did the two carry them over to the burial pits? Did the two dig the
pits? Seems the two had to run all over the place.

	There are always a lot of questions to ask about these
testimonies that are for the most part posted by Mr.Keren, who refuses
to follow up to inquiry.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 07:33:50 PST 1996
Article: 89786 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I only gassed them'
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 14:59:12 GMT
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>Erich Gnewuch testifies about gassings in Nazi-occupied USSR, 1942-3
>[Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
>Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
>A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 57-9]
>----------------------------------------------------------------------

	"Edited"? " ... edited by E. Kogon, ..."? Kogon said in previous
book that 4,000,000 people were killed at Auschwitz.

>On orders from my department, I too drove a gas-van from Berlin to
>Minsk. These vans had been constructed with a lockable cargo
>compartment, like a moving van.
> 
> .

	We can wonder about the little " - "s. 
> .
> .
>
>I was detailed with the gas-van to about twelve convoys of arriving
>Jews. It was in 1942. There were about a thousand Jews in each
>convoy. With each arrival I made five or six trips with my van.
>Some of the Jews were shot. I myself never shot a single Jew; I
>only gassed them.
>
> .
> .
> .
>
>A ghetto operation took place in the autumn of 1943. I was put into
>action only once with the gas-van. I made three trips with it to the
>execution site. I gassed about 150 to 180 people. 
>
	"I was put into action only once ..."

	Keep an eye out with Mr.Keren's posted eyewitness
testimonies/confessions. They always say they only did it or saw it
once.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 12:52:39 PST 1996
Article: 89808 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Supermen Jews in Hitler's Army
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 15:26:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Within a general rambling on a number of topics by a Howard
Kleinberg and posted under "Editorial: Scars of WWII written in
permanent ink" by Joel Rosenberg, the author mentions the project
reported on here.

"Meanwhile, British newspapers reported a remarkable claim by an
American  historian that a considerable number of Germans of Jewish
descent actually served in the Nazi military during the war, and that
77 of them achieved senior officer status in the Wehrmacht."

	We can see he focused exclusively on the claim that Jews attained
high position in the German war machine.

	This is what the project is all about. To hype Jewish attainments
no matter what.




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 12:52:40 PST 1996
Article: 89829 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.radio.talk,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,alt.revolution,alt.society.revolution,alt.speech
Subject: Re: Censorship here in America!
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 14:33:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:350156 alt.radio.talk:17001 alt.religion.islam:37532 alt.revisionism:89829 alt.society.revolution:18553

>
>I was just called by my server, accesscomm.net, that they are not
>going to allow me to use their server because of my 'anti-semetic'
>viewpoints.
>
>No doubt, my article concerning the coming War in the Mideast had
>something to do with it.

	Evidently too, someone called your server. Instead of going the
direct route by counter argument, he, she, they slithered around the
end. A sign of weakness and admission they couldn't deal directly.

>Check it out on this newsgroup and check out http://www.natvan.com
>"The World is In Our Hands" 
>- Israeli columnist Ari Shavit New York Times, May 27
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 12:52:40 PST 1996
Article: 89840 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ways of dying in gas chambers
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 18:46:17 GMT
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	As individual Holocaust eyewitness testimony has it, the Jews
died "coughing", they went quietly, they all went fighting, they went
singing, they went crying, they just passed out, they bit each others
ears and noses off, they all died standing up due to dense packing,
they all died piled against the door, they died covered with blue
stains from HCN, they all died according to the individual fantasies
of "eyewitnesses".


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:20 PST 1996
Article: 89878 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 15:50:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
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>>>>What are we to make of your failure to speak out against Matt Giwer's
>>>>vulgar (and frequently obscene) anti-Semitic outbursts?
>>>
>>>I think you should analyze it with the same reasonable objectivity that
>>>you apply to all subjects hereabouts.
>>>
>>
>>Do you indeed, Mr. Thomas?  Considering that you have edited Mr.
>>Schultz's post (and removed all references) in your response, those
>>who have flakey servers will be interested in knowing the antecedents
>>to his question:
>
>Read this slowly Hilary, your verbal server appears to be a little, well,
>flakey.  :-)  The question in the first paragraph could have been taken
>from any of a half dozen posts, it's become sort of generic in this
>thread.  Regardless of who stated it, the sentiment appears to be shared
>by most of the participants, so it was quoted and responded to generically
>and pragmatically.  I also "removed" nothing, cutting and pasting one
>sentence which retains its full meaning quite irrespective of context or
>poster.
>
>And I can't imagine anyone being interested in the antecedents to this or
>any other post in this thread, aside from you and I of course.
>
>David

	David, why do you bother treating Hilary's stuff like it should
be responded to. Just stick her stuff under "The Best of Hilary", the
dossier for here output posted on alt.revisionism.

_________________________________________________________
>
>"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
>-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
>"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
>-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
>For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.
>
>From the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada
>
>David Thomas
>CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:21 PST 1996
Article: 89896 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:59:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone and since
eroded away to newer accounts that are currently written in stone.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:22 PST 1996
Article: 89897 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SUGGESTED NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION FOR MR. BELLING/BLACKMORE/TUTU
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:58:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <32c5e421.199597@199.0.216.204>
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Brought to you by a synagogue.

>On 25 Dec 1996 12:28:31 GMT, in
><19961225122700.HAA29374@ladder01.news.aol.com>, tutu101@aol.com
>(Tutu101) wrote:
>
>[Quoting Mr. Curtis]:
>>The charges against her were not simply those of participating in
>>selections. There were also charges of beatings, etc., and some of
>>these she admitted to.
>>
>>
>[Presumably responding to Mr. Curtis]:
>>Yes, she beat people for malingering and stealing other people's food. 
>>That is hardly a reason to hang someone.--rb
>>
>[Quoting Mr. Curtis]
>> You have this simplistic habit of narrowing the
>>evidence to her testimony alone. then you narrow that into specific
>>events.
>
>[snip]
>
>>. You are distorting the case
>>against her to meat your own agenda and are not being fair to the
>>sources available. This is something that most _good_, _fair_, and
>>honest historians who got As in their classes learn NOT to do.
>>
>[Presumbably responding to Mr. Curtis _and_ playing Al Baron - and/or
>playing Ehrlich playing Al Baron]:
>>I have studied their comments and Ido not find their accusations to be
>>credible, Mike.  That's all there is to it.  I feel sorry for Ms. Grese
>>and her family.  She did not deserve to die.--rb
>>
>>
>
>To Mr. Belling/Blackmore/Tutu and/or their putative niece and/or their
>apparent handlers:
>
>Before you invent your next persona, would you please take the time to
>LEARN how to use a newsreader so that your attributions are correct -
>and your posts slightly  less convoluted. The simplistic habit the
>three of you seem to share -  sloppy pasting (whether of the material
>your handlers have sent you and/or that of  the poster to whom you are
>responding) - makes your "contributions" needlessly time consuming to
>read (especially for those of us who have to deal with flakey servers
>from time to time).
>
>Thank you.
>
>[posted not e-mailed because previous courtesy e-mails I've sent to
>B/B/T have yielded irrelevant and/or immature responses which appear
>to be from a not very bright 13 year-old. Then again, perhaps the
>putative niece was "visiting" each time my e-mail arrived?:>)]
>
>hro
>=====================
>Hilary Ostrov
>E-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project  http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:22 PST 1996
Article: 89898 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Main Convincing Point for Revisionism
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:55:32 GMT
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	I find one certain aspect of the Holocaust controversy that tilts
ears and minds in the direction of the revisionists side of the story,
right away.  Once this is shown, they become very attentive. 
	The aspect is - the presentation of the Holocaust prosecution
efforts to block any further discussion on the matter.  
	Any excuses for refusing to discuss it, any manifestation of the
child logic, all the charges of "hate" and "racism" can not stamp out
the basic prevalent human nature to be suspicious of someone who
professes something and then not only refuses to discuss it, but
actually tries to stop any further discussion.  
	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:23 PST 1996
Article: 89900 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Editorial: Scars of WWII written in permanent ink
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:02:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 92
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>Published Saturday, December 28, 1996 
>
>Editorial: Scars of WWII written in permanent ink
>
>Howard Kleinberg / Cox News Service
>
>
>
> MIAMI -- Perhaps some of us were lulled into believing that the deluge of 
>50th anniversary commemorations attendant to the closing days of World War II 
>finally would bring closure to that horrible period.
>
>But it hasn't. And perhaps we were wrong to even think it would, or that it 
>should.
>
>Subsequent to those commemorations, old wounds continue to surface and new 
>wounds seem to be opened. Some of that has occurred in just the past few weeks.
>
>More than a half-century after horrendous crimes against humanity took place, 
>survivors and their descendants not only will not let us forget, but are 
>aggressively seeking retribution -- either monetary or, at the very least, a 
>concession of wrongdoing.
>
>Just recently, a verbally penitent International Red Cross handed over to the 
>U.S. Holocaust Museum the first installment of what appears to be a torrent of 
>documents showing the organization allowed itself to be duped by the Nazis 
>when it came to inspecting the death camps.
>
>A continuing story is that of money taken from Jews by the Nazis and 
>deposited in Swiss banks, or deposited directly by Jews who did not survive 
>the war.
>
>Meanwhile, last Sunday's New York Times published both a story and a 
>full-page advertisement dealing with the intransigence of the Japanese 
>government to own up to the atrocities committed by their predecessors during 
>World War II, particularly toward the Chinese people and specifically 
>regarding the aptly called "rape of Nanking."
>
>The California-based Alliance for Preserving the Truth of the Sino-Japanese 
>War purchased the advertisement to protest the visit of homage earlier this 
>year by the Japanese royal family to a cemetery containing the remains of more 
>than 1,000 convicted Japanese war criminals.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Meanwhile, British newspapers reported a remarkable claim by an American 
>historian that a considerable number of Germans of Jewish descent actually 
>served in the Nazi military during the war, and that 77 of them achieved 
>senior officer status in the Wehrmacht.
>	  
>It does not say practicing Jews served, but notes that Adolf Hitler's race 
>laws declared many Germans to be Jews if they had even a trace of Jewish blood.
>
>The study documents that some of them, including one of the creators of 
>Hermann Goering's Luftwaffe -- a field marshal, no less -- were of Jewish 
>ancestry but that they were declared Aryans in specially contrived documents 
>because of their allegiance to the war effort.

	Here we can see that this Howard Kleinberg has chosen to cite the
Jewish supremacy portion of Bryan Rigg's work reported on in
alt.revisionism under "Supermen Jews in Hitler's Army.
	We can take note that Kleinberg cites the young college student
as an "historian".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Historians of the indelible war will not rest until all unanswered questions, 
>or possible revisions to what we have come to believe, are out of the way -- 
>and that appears to be an endless avocation.
>
>Earlier this month, a French journalist, after years of investigative work, 
>published a book about a famous wartime photo that purports to show an 
>unidentified French Resistance fighter about to be executed by a Nazi firing 
>squad. The photo became a symbol of French defiance to the Nazi occupation. 
>The doomed man seems to be smiling at those who would shoot him.
>
>Now, after 50 years of analysis, it has been determined that the man, now 
>identified, never was shot but died months later in a concentration camp. The 
>photo, the author claims, was staged by the Nazis in an attempt to intimidate 
>Resistance fighters.
>
>The commemorations of last year were merely another phase of the war, not a 
>conclusion. The pains of World War II are so deeply and permanently inflicted 
>that it will probably take several more generations, or centuries, before any 
>of it subsides -- if at all.

	"The pains ... centuries ... if at all". The Jews may never want
to forget or let it go, and they certainly don't want anyone else to
forget - the Holocaust lie.


>? Copyright 1996 Cox News Service. All rights reserved.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:24 PST 1996
Article: 89901 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HOLOCAUST OF MIND
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:01:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Entered here you will find a number of ravings that can be taken
as racist exaggerations. We can assume these examples are only a small
fraction of the ethnocentric, blurtatious material that the Jewish
community gets involved with. This community makes up less than 2% of
the American population and yet are responsible for about 100% of the
racist ads, columns and letters that appear in our papers. You may
notice under example XVIII "What Being Jewish Means to Me" is the 15th
of those presented in the N.Y.Times. Over the last 15 years hundreds
of full, half and quarter page ads have been placed in just two
newspapers, the N.Y. and L.A. Times by Jews giving themselves rave
reviews. They seem not able to control themselves, even including
racist ego statements in Holocaust promotional books. 
	
        Since the post covers a number of examples, I would recommend
reading it a piece at a time.

                                                       Tom Moran
                           ==============


I.           - "South West Jewish Archives" -
 (Webcrawler > Jews > Southwestern Jewish Archives > Crypto-Jews)
 
	"The Bloom Southwest Jewish Archives has amassed an enormous
amount of information ..." to show that the Catholics were stupid
people and that Jews were the only ones who could read and write in
pioneer days.
	The Spanish Catholics feared the Jews because they had "special
expertise in various fields".
	Offering up the best of their "enormous" archives, we might
assume, the Blooms cite a few examples to support their apparent
motive of portraying Jews as superior, the first being a "'Mrs.O'" who
had the feeling she was Jewish, because she was raised in a Hispanic
community and her family was the only '"family who were intellectuals,
so therefore we must have been Jewish"'. "Pressed" further she said
'"Well we were the only ones who had books in our house therefore we
must have been Jewish"'.
	Another example given by the Blooms to lead us to how extensive
Jewish presence was in the Old West was from "a young man" who
remembered his grandfather carving menorahs.
	In another display of ethnocentricism and exemplifying the
genetic connection of Judaism, the Blooms quote a Denver dentist who
joined a Jewish congregation, saying he did not have to convert, "even
though his father was a church going Catholic, his mother did not want
him to go to church and told him repeatedly that she was Jewish and
therefore he was too". "My mother was the clever one in the family"
and their "...Catholic friends sneered at us". 
	Another example from the "enormous" archives was a translator
>from  the Univ. of Ariz. who had a amulet with Hebrew text and who's
mother never cooked pork.
	Still another person raised by a "Catholic" mother wrote a
response to a letter (not discussed) that appeared in the Albuquerque
Journal, and the response quoted in part by the Blooms proclaimed,
"...scratch a New Mexican and his Indian blood will flow. Scratch a
little deeper and his Jewish or Moorish blood will flow. Scratch no
deeper 'cause that's all you need to know", meaning any other blood is
not worth mentioning.
                           =============


II.               "ISRAEL IS OUR ONLY PRIORITY" 
So goes the banner heading in a 1/4 page ad in the New York Times
1/23/94, under a little prelude copy that cites " -January 27, 1994-
is the New Year of the Trees."
	"Founded in 1901, the Jewish National Fund has long been
designated as the sole agency in charge of afforestation and land
reclamation in Israel."
	"JNF has planted over 200,000,000 trees throughout Israel. JNF
also builds roads and parks; prepares land for housing, agriculture
and industry ..."  the later being that area outside of the 8000 sq.
miles of the whole of Israel we would have to eliminate when trying to
figure out how many trees per sq. yard 200,000,000 trees would come
out to.

	After a little more boisterous copy we are given a sketch of a
rolling hill vista covered with trees. I wonder what a photograph
would show?
	Whatever the real story, this ad was placed in an American
newspaper for some reason. Evidently to let us know how ecologically
minded they are. 200,000,000 trees? 
                         ==================
 
III.	I CHRONICLES;   Hebrew historians recount the greatness of David.
He mustered up over 230,000 men.  He then slew the Philistines, taking
a thousand chariots, seven thousand horsemen and twenty thousand
footmen.  He then slew the Syrians, twenty thousand men.  David then
made war against the Ammons who had two thousand chariots and forty
thousand men, along with the Syrians(Evidentally those left over that
David didn't kill)who had forty thousand men and seven thousand
chariots, and David's forces killed them all. His empire then spanned
all the way to the Euphrates.  More awesome than Ghangis Khan, more
awesome than the Romans, more than Darius, more than Alexander the
Great, more than - well, more than anybody. 
           Of course there is no other record to show this ever
happened. In fact Biblical scholars have had to resort to confirming
anything in the Bible by looking into the records of other societies
of the time. The last biblical archeological expedition to the land
was in the sixties, according to the "Bible Almanac", and many
historians now find it difficult to accept anything in the biblical
scriptures as credible.
	According to a article in the N.Y.Times on a recent dig in
Israel, a obscure obliterated inscription was said to be the first
evidence that a David ever existed at all. Even this is said to be
questioned. At a recent symposium of biblical scholars in
Philadelphia, Penn. a number of them expressed their opinion that
there never was a David.
	Contents of the Bible shows a lot more than the above as to
exaggerated claims and suggests the Jewish propensity to exaggerate
started a long time ago.
                            =================


IV.                Dec. 13, 1995, New York Times
                  Quarter page ad by the ADL.

         	    "IN THE FACE OF HATE"

   "ADL is truly a grassroots civil rights and human relations
organization. One of the largest and most respected in the world." 
                            ===============


V.                         Raul Hilberg,
             "The Destruction of European Jews"

"On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
to speak, nonexistent'".
	Stupid Russians.
                            =================


VI.	     "The Destruction of the European Jewry"
		        Raul Hilberg	

	"On Nov.7 Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw district proposed that
the Warsaw Jews (whose number he estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated
in a ghetto, and Frank gave his immediate consent ... During the
winter, Fischer created a Resettlement Division under Waldermar Schon,
who was going to have a major role in ghetto planning ... The first
idea, in February, to locate the ghetto in the eastern bank of the
Vistula River, was turned down ... on the ground that 80 percent of
Warsaw's artisans were Jews ... and were indispensable ..."

	Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more sense than the White
Russians whose talents he claimed were for the most part "nonexistent"
in relation to the Jews and the Poles in their own nation made up 20%.
Either way - stupid Poles.
	One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he would profess the
Jews have in America. 
                          ===============

                  
VII.	As to the statement, 'Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more
sense than the White Russians whose talents he claimed were for the
most part "nonexistent" in relation to the Jews.' 
                       
	Danny Mittleman, alt.rev. regular, responded to this with;

        "I guess so."	

As to the statement, 'One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he
(Hilberg) would profess the Jews have in America.' 

	Danny Mittleman responded:
    "I don't know.  I would guess it to be less than 80% for two
reasons: 
    One, for many years Jews were systematically kept out of trade
unions so less Jewish families developed traditions in specific
fields.  And two, many Jewish children in the United States go to
College and Graduate School and take on careers common at those
education levels."
	
	Which means if it wasn't for this, the Jews would be at least 80%
of the artisan story in America. Stupid Americans.
                            ================	 

VIII.    Nizkor > Shofar FTP > camps > Mauthausen > Hungary .01

	"The fate of the Jewish settlement in Hungary -- one of the
largest in Europe -- was a desolating climax to the tragic Holocaust
period. Before Hitler came to power in 1933 there were about 800,000
Jews in greater Hungary, 200,000 of then living in Budapest, where
despite an endemic anti-Semitism, they were at the forefront of
culture, scientific and economic life of the country."

Abram Sachar, "The Redemption of the Unwanted". 1983

	The figure for the number of prewar Jews in Hungary ranges from
700,000 to 900,000 - 800,000 here. The 700,000 figure is that set
forth by an estimate by the Germans, which the Jews use as an
authority to show there was a large enough Jewish population in Europe
to have been killed and add up to the 6,000,000. The same source cited
700,000 French Jews, which is currently put at 70,000 in more current
Holocaust books. Evidently there was too much of one thing or not
enough of another to maintain the gross exaggeration for France, so we
should seriously consider any figures given in the list. 
                            ==============


VIII (a).  According to Jewish author Yehuda Bauer, in his book, "A
History of the Holocaust":
	"The growth of the American trade-union movement is due in large
measure to the leadership of it's many Jewish members."
                          ===============

IX.	"The Jews are Gods chosen people."

                            ==============

X.	- "The Jews created the one god." -

	Can you picture it? A bunch of ancient Hebrews squatting around
and all of a sudden they all jump up at the same time saying, 'I got
it.'

	Actually, Akhenaten, a Pharoah of Egypt installed the concept
over Egypt a hundred years prior to the time "Exodus" is said to have
taken place.
	Also, Zoroaster was a philosopher of a one god, preceding the
first record of Hebrews.
	There are also some primitive tribes in Borneo, and the Americas
that hold to the concept.
	And then there is the most recurrent theme in the "Old Testament"
which is the writers constantly berating the Hebrews for not adhering
to the one god and following "false idols", evidently a common
practice among the people. 
                            ===============

	
XI.	Without any shred of proof, and nothing more than 
       ethnocentric fixations, the Jews announce:

                "CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS WAS A JEW."

	I recall a conversation with a Jewish person not too long ago
where he said "Christopher Columbus was most likely a Jew". When I ask
him 'most likely?' he couldn't come back with anything else.
	One piece of evidence offered in the Los Angeles Times by a
ethnocentric was he "looks Jewish".  I recall seeing a similar account
offered about Shakespeare, with further evidence being that he seemed
to go easy on the character - Shylock.  
                           ====================	       

XII.	             "What price Israel"
                     Alfred M. Lilienthal

	"Here is a paradox, a most ingenious paradox, an anthropologic
fact, many Christians may have much more Hebrew-Isrealite blood
in their veins than most of their Jewish neighbors"

	Dr. Lilienthal has for a number of years been associated with
certain publications that focus on telling the truth about Israel and
Zionism, with his attacks on Jewish activities being of the most
scathing.
	Nevertheless, having had personal communication with Dr.
Lilienthal and meeting him once at his initiative, I recognized that
he had an underlying motive. He knows the truthful analysis he puts
out about Jews and Zionism will find it's way out anyway, so he comes
out and says it too so the Jews will have someone to point to in order
to demonstrate they have the capacity for open mindedness. I
recognized Lilienthal as a "cryptic Jew" from the early stages. I
would say he associated himself with anti-Zionist parties in order to
have some influence on the intensity of the their output. Jews often
attach themselves to organizations for this reason only. The above
statement shows that he has a Jewish agenda at his core. I once heard
him, in an address to an Arab association, say they had common bonds
through Abraham, which was a clincher for me at the time, to be more
suspicious of the cryptic nature of his coming on like a anti-Zionist.

	Lets look at his own wording. I take his use of the word
"paradox" to mean the dictionary option: "a statement or proposition
seemingly self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expressing a
possible truth". This can be further confirmed by his asserting
"anthropological fact".
	Lilienthal appears almost as flaming as the Bloom's, who I
reported on above who assert that Jewish "blood" is prevalent in
Western mans gene pool. 
	Any intermixing of "blood" would be a two way street. By putting
it the way Lilienthal and the Bloom's put it they would have us
believe that the Jewish blood would become the prevalent factor,
displacing the traces of the others while their's becomes the ruling
gene.
	"Anthropological" refers to a empirical process, which comes
under the "scientific method". If Lilienthal and the Bloom's make
these claims, let them present the empirical path to their
conclusions. The Bloom's concept of empiricism is summarized above,
which if this was ever taken as a prime example for empirical
standards we would still be in the dark ages.

	Heres another example of empirical recogning to see if
Lilienthal, Bloom's and any other ethnocentric raving on the subject
carries any validity at all.

	The Jewish record, according to the science of archeology goes
back to maybe 1250 BC. Their only record, according to themselves is
found in their Bible which puts them at the beginning of the universe.
As far as any other record of their existence, in the early stages,
there are a couple of references to them made by other societies of
the time, but these are from around 600 BC.
	As far as the area of biblical narrative is concerned, there is
considerable record from other societies concerning the area, but not
about the Hebrews themselves. The area was never controlled fully by
any Hebrew people. It was always under the occupation authority of
many different and more significant civilizations. Egypt, the
Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Greeks and Romans to mention a few.
There is also the Jews own story of how they went into the land around
the time of 1250 BC, whereas archeological digs show civilization
there for thousands of years before that.
	All of these societies put settlements into the area which ended
up interbreeding with the inhabitants, the Hebrews among them. This
would be taking place over a long period. Maybe one of the only
biblical narratives that can be shown to hold any validity at all is
an account of how a few ten thousands of Hebrews were carried away to
Babylon, later allowed to return after a sweeping decree by Cyrus who
set free many from many different areas with out mentioning the Jews
in particular. When this carrying away took place it is said that the
Babylonians replaced the displaced Hebrews in Palestine, and by the
time the Hebrews returned after many decades in Babylon, intermingling
we should suppose, the Babylonians had already integrated with the
remaining population, especially in the Sumerian sector.
	So, from this we assume that any "blood" specialization that may
have existed among the Hebrews was already diluted to a great degree
before even the invasion of the Greeks and Romans who set up colonies
of their own. Combining this with what took place over the next two
thousand years we can see that any Hebrew "blood" was so thoroughly
intermixed that it's original identity would be almost erased. 
	As to any superiority being associated with Jewish "blood" we
should also look at the record through the empirical method. If one
should look into existing history books, the index, and look up
Hebrew, Egyptian, Assyrian, Roman, Greek and a number of others, we
might find Hebrew on say, page 15, 234 - 235, whereas under the others
we might see something like Romans, page 15, 64, 108 - 119, 340 - 360.
In fact any books on the Bible would be quite boring affairs if they
didn't include pictures of art and commentary of societies other than
the Hebrews. The Hebrews were not innovators in anything. No record is
there. They even, by their own record, had to call on the
Phoenicians to build their temple.
	The Romans and the Greeks have left behind a record that makes
the Bible look like a pamphlet. The Greeks and the Romans were great
in theatre, art, literature, engineering, philosophy and other
innovations that are totally absent from the Hebrew record. 
	Even after the biblical era unto now there is no record of Hebrew
superiority. I will state now that nothing like this would be written
if it wasn't for the many boastings by the Jews themselves about their
being superior. It is a world where things are said and things are
challenged. If they think they rate any special exclusion from being
doubted or denied it only shows the degree of ethnocentric
righteousness.
	The only record of any true accomplishment associated with
Hebrewism has occurred in the last century. Even here it can be shown,
using the empirical dynamics of anthropology, that any accomplishments
associated with Hebrewism is really the result of non-Hebrewism.
	Take names like Einstein, Oppenheimer and a few other European
names who are touted as Jewish whenever their names come up. They all
have a German, Italian or other western connection. Of course the
Hebrew ego will blurt out that names like Heisenberg, Shroedinger,
Plank, Galileo, Newton, and a whole slue of others came to be from the
Jewish gene. This I have witnessed personally. In this case we would
have to look at other areas the Jews have taken root, such as Romania,
Soviet Union, Hungary, other nations of the Middle East, North Africa
and in South America. Judging by the names of those who seem to be at
the head of he Jewish community, we can see a lot of German names. 
	So tracing Hebrews from the very onset of their record to now
shows that there is absolutely nothing there to show that Hebrew
"blood" prevails anywhere and that any unique benevolent qualities are
associated with it or they are inherently more "brilliant" than
goyims.
	No one is more aware, at least subliminally, than the Hebrews,
who have to resort to making boasterous announcements, no.1 in the
process of chutzpa.
	The Jews have wide record of stating they are the only group to
exist from ancient times, constantly raving about their enduring
cohesion. The Jew finds it necessary to stay together in order to ply
their way in the world. They, not having the inherent strength and
capability to go it alone have always stuck together to capitalize on
the talents and production of others. They have the most repeated
history in the world, one of constantly being the recipients of
backlash to their conspiracies to manipulate others for the Jewish
interest. They call it persecution. But if a little boy is constantly
getting into trouble, who's fault is it? Any common recognition would
have to put the ultimate responsibility on the little boy. In fact
they thrive on this history. Glorify in being persecuted, evidently
giving them some sense of accomplishment as a people.
                           =================
                           
XIII.	Go to Tombstone Arizona. Visit Boot Hill. Follow the sign to
"Jewish Cemetery". You will come upon a low adobe wall around a 300
foot square area. In the center on a pedestal is a little pLaque that
reads something like:

	'Here lies some Jewish citizens of old Tombstone, "Friends of the
Indians".

	I know that the Jews are very avid in crawling around Washington
seeking billions for Israel, but I don't ever recall seeing them
active in bringing better times to anyone else, especially the
American Indian. In fact we could surmise that for every dollar that
goes to Israel, it is less that which could be used for the indigent
American.

	No, no. The Jews didn't go to Tombstone to reap of the gold and
silver mines, they went there out of concern for the Indians.  
                            ===================
	
XIV.	Lizard" (Lizard@dnai.com) wrote in "Re:Simon Wiesenthal Center's
*previous* internet censorship attempts" -

	"The amount of cross breeding between Jews and Christians in
Europe is such that the gene pool is hopelessly mixed as is, more
importantly the meme pool.
	Try to purge all '"Jewish influences"' from any good library of
classical literature and you'll have no books left."
	
                           =================	

XV.	About ten years ago the L.A.Times carried a little notice about a
discussion panel at UCLA by their Hillel chapter in which it was going
to be shown that American humor came from the Jews. 
	They were going to do it by showing some passages from the Old
Testament. Looking up the one sample example noted, didn't show
anything funny.
	The topic of, no humor can be found in the Bible, is one that is
recognized and commented on by many.
                            =================

XVI.	About 5 years ago, a local newspaper carried an article written
by a Jew who interviewed another Jew about his expertise in some
martial art said to have been developed in Israel. The article went on
to say he was giving instruction to local police departments and that
the technique was "awesome" - "...even more awesome than Gracy
jujitsu".
	Gracy jujitsu is an art that a Scotchman living in Brazil
developed late in the 19th Century.
	For the last few years there have been matches shown on TV that
pits one martial art against another. I believe the first one was
called "The Ultimate Challenge". Its a elimination fight down. All
forms can show up to participate.
	During that match and all subsequent matches, Gracy
representatives have won.
	The Gracys, the initial Gracy"s off spring, have offered over the
last number of years, $100,000 to anyone who can beat them.
	The Jew with the Jewish martial art form that is "more awesome
than Gracy" or any other representative of the awesome technique have
never shown up to take the challenge or to participate and show their
awesome techniques at any of the TV fight downs.
	A personal acquaintance who knows the Gracys ask the Gracys if
they knew anything about this awesome Jewish technique and they never
even heard of it.
	Considering the Gracys $100,000 reward, we can see they put their
money were their mouth is, and the Jewish techniquers merely stick out
the spoon of chutzpa.  
                           =================

XVII.                   "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
  The latest to appear under this heading that appears in quarter page
ads in the N.Y.Times with regular frequency is one by Justice Ruth
Bader Ginsberg, 1/14/96.

	"There is an age-old connection between Judaism and law. For
centuries, rabbis and other Jewish scholars have studied, restudied,
and ceaselessly interpreted the Talmud. These studies have produced a
vast corpus of judicial writing. Jews have been called '"the people of
the book"', reflecting their placement of learning first among
cultural values.
	The Jewish tradition prized the scholarship of judges and
lawyers, and when anti-Semitic occupational restrictions were lifted,
Jews were drawn to the learned professions of the countries in which
they lived. In the U.S., law became the bulwark against the kind of
oppression Jews had endured ... Jews in large numbers became lawyers,
some eventually became judges, and the best of those jurists used law
to secure justice for others.
	Laws as protectors of the oppressed, the poor, the loner, is
evident in the work of my Jewish predecessors ...
	The late Supreme Court justice (and former American Jewish
Committee president) Arthur Goldberg once said, '"My concern for
justice, for peace, for enlightenment, all stem from my heritage"'. I
am fortunate to be linked to that heritage.
	Each time I visit the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, I am
reminded that Hitler's evil kingdom, his '"Holocaust Kingdom"', was a
kingdom full of laws. ..."

	Ginsberg then goes on to tell us how the German justices went
astray and then continued on with how wonderful Judaic thinking is.

	The ad is placed by The American Jewish Committee.

	"The American Jewish Committee is proud to present this message,
the fifteenth in a series, on the meaning of being Jewish today."

	"For information on a variety of programs which can help you
explore your connection to Judaism, write ..."

	""Founded in 1906, the American Jewish Committee is dedicated to
strengthening the Jewish community, enriching the quality of Jewish
life, and enhancing democratic values for all."


Dear Ruth Ginsberg and the American Jewish Committee,
	As to the claims made in your advertisement, N.Y. Times, 1/14/96,
stating that Jews are righteously concerned with democracy and rights
for others, I have a few questions before I can accept the proposals
as being sincere.   
	What record do you have as to the Israeli policy of shooting down
little kids, and their policy of condoning torture? What is your view
on the Jewish imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians without trial?
What is your opinion on the jews in Israel razing peoples houses. What
is your view on Israeli defiance of U.N. resolutions?
What is your view on Israel terrorizing 100s of 1000s in Lebanon.
	Do you think support of Israel should be subject to a democratic
vote by the citizens of the U.S.? Do you think that support of Israel
is a violation of our 'separation of church and state' clause?
	What is your view of Holocaust revisionism? Do you think
revisionists have the right to be heard, in the press, on TV, on
campus? What is your view on the continuing activity of the Simon
Wiesenthal Center and the ADL to bring censorship to the Worldwide
Web? Do you think they should be required to name offending sites
explicitly and should be required to present their case before a
democratic vote?
	Do you have any record to show you have addressed any of this?
                           ================

XVIII.                    Quote from the Talmud
	"He who so ever saves the life of a Jew, is as if he had saved
the life of the whole world."
	Which further implies, 'He who so ever saves the life of a goyim,
is as if he had saved nothing'.
                           ================

XIX.                   Statement by a Israeli leader at a 
                      "Salute to Israel" gathering in L.A.
	"The United States wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for
Israel".
	Now there is a true statement. The Unitied States, and the world,
would be a lot better off if Israel never existed. 
                            ===============

XX.                The Jew who took 500 Japanese prisoners.

	The full account was posted on alt.rev. a number of months ago.
It had also received exposure in public newspapers.
	About ten years ago or so a Jew laid claim to the Congressional
Metal of Honor. His story was that he took 500 Japanese prisoners. For
some reason and eventually, almost the full U.S. Senate got involved
in special legislation to have the matter considered seriously, and
were opting to award the nations highest citation.  As it turned the
Jew was exposed as a liar and the matter slid away into the history of
the rest of the exaggerations.
	The matter was taken up by the Senate on the urgings of major
Jewish organizations, which makes the lie their lie. The lie was
exposed by members of the claiming person's unit during the war. The
Jews tried to make it look like it was on their initiative, the Simon
Wiesenthal Center being one of the Jewish organizations involved.
	 

   


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:25 PST 1996
Article: 89902 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:02:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
"eyewitness" accounts of what they saw.

	UFO stories are largely based on "eyewitness" accounts of what
they saw.

	The Holocaust story is supported by survivor testimony.

	UFO stories now number over hundreds of survivor accounts of
being taken on board a alien spacecraft and subjected to medical
experiments.

	The Holocaust story relies on physical evidence, such as a door
>from  a gas chamber, some brick ovens in a Holocaust museum, a pile of
shoes or an empty can of Zyklon B.

	UFO stories pose physical evidence also, like a wound someone
says they got from a ordeal encounter with aliens' a piece of metal
said to come from a UFO crash and even the Great Pyramides of Egypt.

	The Holocaust presents some photos, such as a ruin said to have
been a gas chamber, or people standing by rail cars and said to be
undergoing selection for gas chambers. 

	UFO stories include photos of aliens, circles in farmers fields
as proof of alien landing and photos of rock formations on Mars said
to be ruins of a past civilization.

	The Holocaust has had many of it's claims exposed as lies, such
as Auschwitz numbers, gas through shower heads and soap made of human
fat.

	UFO stories have had many of their claims exposed as being lies,
such as the two farmers who confessed to pulling off the hoax of a
landing site in their fields.

	Interesting.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:26 PST 1996
Article: 89903 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ultimate Responsibility
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:57:54 GMT
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		      This is a repost.

		
	"Know ye not history and you are doomed to repeat it."

     Know ye your history of malice and repeat it, and the malice of
consequences repeateth also.
	No group in the world has such a repeated history in the world as
the Hebrews. They relish in recounting this history as if it is a high
point of achievement, without going through the recognized procedure
of objectively learning from history. It is always the other guy who
is at fault. 

                    "The Jewish Book of Days"

	is a small hard covered calendar book starting off with January
and ending in December and no particular year involved. Each page is
divided up into seven horizontal spaces, each one having a numerical
date corresponding to the month and in each space there is a notation
for something the Jews find significant, such as January 1 notes "Hank
Greenberg, professional baseball player, born (1911)" or June 27 notes
"The Yiddish newspaper Die Yidishe Velt began publication in New York
(1902)".
	The Jewish history also cites among the attaining people and
moments of their history a substantial and proud recollection of their
effects on others, the first appearing under the book date,

    Jan. 8 Jews expelled from Genoa, Italy (1598), then

	12 Jews expelled from Sicily(1493)

	14 The Church burned confiscated Jewish books in Rome(1601)

	31 Henry II forbade Jews in England to build new synagogues(1253)

    Feb. 6 First auto-da-fe of the Spanish Inquisition(1481)

	13 Jews of Speyer massacred(1195)

	21 Jews expelled from German city Ratisbon(1519)

	26 The Jews were expelled from all papal territory except Rome
and Ancona(1569)

	28 First auto-da-fe in the New World(1574)

    Mar. 9 Pope Innocent IV ordered that the Talmud be burned(1244)

	18 More than eighty French Jews were burned at the stake in
Bray(1191)

	28 Turkish authorities expelled Jews from Jaffa and Tel
Aviv(1917)

	31 King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella signed the order expelling
Jews from Spain(1492)

    Apr. 2 Jews expelled from Sicily(1492)

	 5 The Polish army executed thirty five Jews for handing out
Joint Distribution Committee packages to the Jews of Pinsk(1919)

	23 Jews prohibited from living in France
	 
	28 A progrom at Elizavetgrad was followed by a series of progroms
throughout the Ukraine and neighboring provinces(1881)

	30 A royal proclaimation instructs Jews to leave Spain by the end
of July(1492)

    May  7 Empress Catherine I ordered all Jews expelled from the
Ukraine(1727)

	13 Nonnative Jews expelled from Bohemia(1763)

	19 Iraqi Jews began to depart for Israel(1950)

	31 Sigmund III of Poland tried to keep Jews out of Riga(1593)

   June	15 Many Jews were killed during a riot in Safed(1834)

	16 Jews expelled from Florence(1527)

	19 Loius IX of France decreed all Jews must wear yellow
badge(1269)

	24 Russian Minister of the Interior instructed local authorities
to suppress Zionism among the Jews(1903)

   July 11 Jews expelled from Little Russia(1739)

	19 Thirty eight Jews burned in Brandenburg as a result of a
Host-declaration libel(1810)

	22 Jews of France arrested at the order of King Philip(1306)

	25 Emperor Leopold I expelled the Jews from Vienna(1670)

	30 Citizens of Nuremburg forbidden to borrow from Jews(1539)

    Aug  5 More than 300 Jews were killed in a massacre in
Barcelona(1391)

	11 Marranos who escaped from Spain fall victim to auto-da-fe in
Lima(1635)

	16 Laws regulating the condition of Jews of Saxony issued(1838)

	18 Jews Oath abolished in Austria(1846)

	19 Maximillian I orders the destruction of Jewish books(1509)

	23 Jews throughout Palestine were attacked by Arab rioters(1929)

   Sept  3 Many Jews were killed in a riot during coronation of
Richard the Lion Hearted(1189)

        17 Jews expelled from France by King Charles(1394)

	21 Swedish Government revoked privileges previously granted
Swedish Jews(1838)

	24 King Louis XIV ordered Jews expelled from French possessions
in America(1683)

    Oct  4 Jews deprived of rights by Vichy government in France(1940)

	 5 Ludwig IX expelled the Jews from Lower Bavaria(1450)
	
        21 Emperor Joseph II of Austria abolished distinctive Jewish
dress(1781)

	23 Jews in Barbados forbidden to engage in retail trade(1668)

	30 Pope Innocent XI forbade Jews in Rome to engage in
banking(1682)

	31 Date by which Jews had to leave Portugal(1497)

    Nov  2 Jews expelled from France and French domains(1394) 

	 9 Kristallnact(1938)

	14 Jews no longer permitted to attend German schools(1938)

	23 Jews expelled from Naples(1510)

	26 The Council of Clermont proclaimed the First Crusade, that led
to the massacre of many Jewish communities(1092)

    Dec  4 Jews ordered to leave Portugal(1496)

	16 Jews expelled from France(1394)

	18 Jews expelled from Prague, Bohemia and Moravia(1774)

	25 King Frederick III of Sicily required all Jews to wear
badge(1369)

	27 Jews were prohibited from practicing medicine in Romania(1868)


	So here we have a recurrent theme spanning ten centuries and many
different areas. We might assume that this rejoicing record compiled
by the Jewish community is that which they were able to find but that
the full account, if records were available, might exceed this by many
times.
	Holocaust books give us a more up to date account about raging
resentments among a variety of countries in this century, especially
in their accounts of Einsatzgruppens, where we might get the idea that
people in Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, White Russia and else where, had
more to do with whatever really happened than the Germans. 
	We also have to recognize, aside from any moral judgements, that
whatever really happened during WW II is a continuation of the listed
history above.
	Since these bewailings of dates of reactions are always devoid of
discussing any extenuating circumstances we are left to wonder about
the ultimate cause and effect of the reoccurrence. Nevertheless, one
example of the above has found it's way into history books as to any
details. This is the Spanish expulsion of Jews in 1492. 
        The historical account of Jews in Spain starts off with them
finding their way into the land as tagalongs to the invading Moorish
army, thus making them complicity in the invasion. After a few
centuries the Moors were rightfully ejected from Spain, but the Jews
were allowed to stay, evidently in consideration of their biblical
connection. In spite of this initial forgiving accommodation a change
of heart occurred. Evidently the Jews had saturated much of the trade,
including the agricultural chain, and eventually it got to the point
of intolerance and the Spanish reacted.
	About three years ago Spain allowed itself to be badgered into
giving a formal apology for this history.
 
	The one thing that is certain from the overall history of the
Jews,  by their own accounting, aside from any discussion of cause and
effect, is that for some reason many generations in many nations
allowed the Jews to establish themselves but for some reason became
irritated to the point of severe reaction, which the Jews call
"persecution".
	It is evident that great rage was directed towards the Jews, and
we must recognize that the Jews repeated history suggests that they
are the ultimate responsibility for whatever happened to them.  They
can propagandize all they want about how brilliant they are, how
benevolent they are, but their own history does not support it.
	The most repeated history in the history of the world.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:26 PST 1996
Article: 89904 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Very Lucky "Survivor"
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 15:59:22 GMT
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	             Mother and Child Occasion
                   L.A.Times, Dec.28, 1996

"Holocaust Survivor Gets
Dual Bat Mitzvah With 
Cantor Daughter"

	"Hilda Kalir grew up in Germany but managed to leave in 1939,
..."

	Doesn't take much to be a "survivor".

	The one thing we will notice in Holocaust accounting is that very
few German Jews are mentioned as going to the gas chambers. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:27 PST 1996
Article: 89905 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Once upon a time
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:58:37 GMT
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>
>"It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances
>were built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that
>the people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were undressed
>and then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a
>special way; there they were killed."
>IMT VII - p.576-577. 
>
>	"IMT", International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg Trials.

	The same testimony broken down into it's detail components.
	
"It was in 1942

[at Belsen]

special electrical appliances for mass extermination of people.

the doomed were undressed

then driven to the building

the floor was electrified
  
there they were killed."

IMT VII - p.576-577. 

	"IMT", International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg Trials.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The basic part of this Holocaust account that puts it into the 'no
longer valid' folder is the electified floor. Of course if the
electrified floor goes, then so does the rest of it, "1942", "doomed
were undressed", "driven to the building" and "there they were killed"
all goes with it.

	Every single word a lie.   



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:28 PST 1996
Article: 89906 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Supermen Jews in Hitler's Army
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 15:52:53 GMT
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	              "The Jews in Hitler's Military"
                       L.A.Times, Dec. 24, 1996

"A young American is 
documenting the stories 
of Hundreds of German 
veterans of Jewish descent. 
Many lost family to the 
Holocaust while serving the 
Nazi regime."

LONDON--"Sustained by scholarship, peanut butter and a sense of
mission, American Bryan Rigg is exploring an eerie and uncharted no
man's land of Holocaust history.
	Rigg interviews former German soldiers of Jewish descent ... who
served ...during the Holocaust, when the Nazis slaughtered 6 million
Jews. 
	'Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the
Nazis called 'full Jews' served in the military but at the same time
exterminated their families.'
	On a heady journey of personal and professional discovery, the 25
year old Texan ... interviewed more than 300 of these veterans ...
Passed along from one old soldier to another, he has crisscrossed
Germany 4 times ...
	Rigg said he has documented the Jewish ancestry of more than 1200
of Hilter's soldiers including two field marshalls and 10 generals,
men commanding up to 100,000, ..."

[ That and the next line is the beginning of the real motive for the
story and why it would find it's way into the L.A.Times, the Judeo
supremacy publication. ]

"In about 20 cases, soldiers of Jewish heritage were awarded the
Knight's Cross, Germany's highest honor, he said."

	"This fall, Rigg, Yale '96, arrived at England Cambridge
University ... lugging his clothes ... documentation ... Jonathan
Steinberg, Cambridge historian, read Rigg's files and hurried to find
a safe place for them.
	Along the way, Rigg, who is of German extraction and was raised
as a Protestant, has discovered that he too has Jewish ancestry. Like
many of the families he has visited, Rigg had distant relatives who
were killed for being Jewish--and others who died fighting in battle
for Nazi Germany."

[ I would say if Rigg's was confronted with a demand to stand
accountable to show his Jewish ancestry and to prove any events they
lived through it would result in some real embarrassment. Its all too
pat.

Having been around this country a number of times I have come to
notice there can be a noticeable genetic common appearance to people
in different parts. This would come of course from various
nationalities having settled in the same place years ago. An
accompanying photo of Rigg's shows him to have a classic appearance of
a common Texan strain, tall, husky and handsome. If there is any
Jewish there, it is not evident.

One of the more obvious points of this article reveals the racial
aspect of Judaism. ]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
	The article being more than a half page long I will just cite the
relevant parts that throw suspicion on the accounts, the racist
connection and the reason it found it's way into the L.A.Times - to
hype Jewish supremacy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


	"Many of the men Rigg meets cling to Nazi terminology, describing
themselves as half Jewish, half German."

[ Here we have the term "half Jewish" being designated "Nazi
terminology" when in fact it is a term used by Jews themselves and has
been referred to many times in medias and even movies. Not to mention
it is used to designate the racial status of any one else, 'half
Black', 'half Irish', etc.

The article does not lead to any evidental conclusion that any of the
Germans are half Jewish. It seems more like they would be quarter or
even eighth Jewish. ]
	   		
	"One of his discoveries was a 1944 German document listing 77
high ranking officers 'of mixed Jewish race or married to a Jew'. Two
generals, eight lieutenant generals, five major generals and 23
colonels."

[ It doesn't say how many were of "Jewish race" or how many were those
who were connected by marriage. ]

	"'I don't think it ever occurred to go to a general's personal
file to see if he was Jewish', said Steinberg".

[ Not bothering to consider the ones that were just married to a Jew.]


	"... Hitler loathed Jews, but he also needed experienced
commanders and fighters". 

[ So under the circumstances, there just wasn't enough to draw from
the measly German genetic stock for fighters and commanders. ]

	"He (Rigg's) said there were at least a dozen exception lists
approved by Hitler--naming ranking officials not only in the armed
forces but in the civilian administration that worked with military.
One German civilian of Jewish heritage ..."

[ "One ,,," ]

	....

	"In interviews and research in Germany this month, Rigg found
still more Wehrmacht officers of Jewish descent ..." 

[ Another thing that is evident in the article is glorifying Jewish
descent as if it was the only descent of value to speak of. We can
take note that the ones found on the list are "officers". ]

	....

	"One Knight's Cross winner was reunited with his Jewish father in
England ..."

[ This is the first of three or four times the article mentions
"Jewish father". No where does it mention a Jewish mother, which is a
necessary technicality in the Jewish race to be rated a Jew. In fact
the only name mentioned in the whole article as being high ranking is
Field Marshall Erhard Milch, who had a Jewish father".]

	"Rigg also brought to light to folklore surrounding the
derring-do rescue ... Rigg has identified him as bayonet scarred,
bemedaled, Maj. Ernst Bloch ... whose father was Jewish."

[ The significance here of course is the "... derring-do ... Jewish
father" connection.]

	....

	"About 100,000 Jews served in the German army in World War I, and
about 12,000 of them were killed."

	[ Now here would be very good place to start to look into Rigg's
project. Here we have "100,000" Jews said to have served in the German
army during World War I whereas Holocaust accounts have it that only
300,000 Jews, all together, were in Germany prior to World War II.
Considering the age, sex aspect of any particular people, we would
have to recognize that if there were 100,000 German Jews fighting in
WWII there would be at least a million in all. It is so typical with
Holocaust/Jewish propaganda to have their facts and figures step all
over each other. Whatever, this is a real blunder. ]

	(The WWI) "...Veterans thought their service would protect them
against the Nazi crackdown ... When the transports came ... Some even
went to the gas chamber with their medals on."

[ Okay, we see again we have a heroic lot here with "medals". How
Rigg's came to find out how any of them went to the gas chambers, much
less with their medals on should be very interesting. Especially since
he says "some". If he had said 'one' this is something we could accept
as being in the realm of a possibility, but with the "some", well too
wayout. This is another one of those wacky yarns like all the rest of
the Holocaust eyewitness testimonies, which we must assume would be
the source for Rigg's blurt. 

Since Holocaust accounts have the people made to strip naked, we can
muse over how the heroic Jews came to still have their medals on.]

 How did Riggs come to get involved with the project? 

	"Rigg's quest began at Yale, when he started researching his
family history in Germany. First he learned that his
great-grandparents, who arrived as Protestants, had been born in
Germany as Jews."

[ Since then he has focused his identity on the two Jews from a
hundred years ago, and nothing in between seems to matter. ]

	"Then one night in 1992, he went to see 'Europa, Europa', a film
about a Jewish adolescent who hid out in the German army during World
War II. After the movie, Rigg's struck a conversation with an elderly
German Jew... and he listened until morning"
 
[ Now there we have a revealing particular of how he came to be
involved. ] 
	  
	So far it seems Rigg's has not written a book on the subject or
released any details of his story, so the world will have to wait
before anyone can go over the routes of his research. And perhaps
there may never be any. There are just to many problems to cover up
with this latest bravado.

	On top of it all the Judeo/Holocaust propaganda is further
compromised when trying to fit all the talk about "Jewish", "field
marshalls", "generals" and medal winners in with something like Daniel
Goldhagen's book, 'Ordinary Germans, Hitler's Willing Executioners"
which strives to show all the Germans, and especially high ranking
military people knew about and willingly contributed to the
exterminations of millions of Jews.  
     
	It's funny how Holocaust accounts stampede all over themselves
and all over each other.	

	In another twist, this article and thus Rigg's, seem to strive to
show and glorify Jews by claiming high position and heroic
accomplishment in the very German machine the Holocaust story works so
hard at protraying as evil.

	Well, when it comes to selling Jewish supremacy, anything goes.

	When looking at the picture of Rigg's, I can see blind ambition,
the boy next door, and I think of that long talk he had into the wee
hours of the morning with the German Jew.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:29 PST 1996
Article: 89907 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE MOSES MYTH
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:44:47 GMT
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	I found the "Bible Almanac" to be a good lay guide for biblical
commentary. Even thought it was written by Christian scholars, they
let on to many things that they didn't have to and to which might tend
to take the divine connection out of any scriptures.

	This book cites the contents of "Proverbs" as having an Egyptian
origin.

	One item in the book relates an accounting of a spectacular
golden stemmed cup imbedded with jewels. The cup found in the early
1900s was in short time theorized as being the one Christ drank out of
at the "Last Supper". Evidently no one bothered to wonder how a pius
Jesus Christ would come to be drinking out of an extravaganza like the
golden gem studded cup.
	Back in the 1950s there was an epic film called the "The Chalice"
which I remember. It was written around this cup. More recently the
artifact has been placed to have been made around 750 AD.
	Too bad the world wasn't smart enough to grasp the superior out
put of the great Greek masters. The world would probably be in far
better shape today, having taken to the rational empirical approach
instead of guidance by myth and superstition.
 
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:30 PST 1996
Article: 89908 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor/JDL ready for "battle" against evil Christians
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:06:12 GMT
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                         	NIZKOR
                      Champions against "hate".
                     
	Under "Other Sites: Anti-Racist Resources" we are presented with
a new Nizkor feature where one can click up various "resources" for
further information on fighting hate. 

	Of course the Anti Defamation League is there, and there is now a
Artist Against Racism and Anti Racist Action. This last one I believe
was reported on recently on alt.rev complete with the belacose words
by this group. Nizkor's little discription of this group includes
"Site offers some photographs of interest, including some of Canada's
Marc Lemire" with a separate sentence two spaces down, "Nizkor does
not condone or support violence". Perhaps we should let Nizkor explain
the connection.

	Then there is the clickable from the Nizkor site, "The Jewish
Defense League". This "league" is listed in FBI dossiers as a
terrorist organization, and is an admitted militant Jewish group. 
The only socially and politically correct militant group in the United
States and Canada.

	Once you enter their site, the first thing is a graphic upright
white fist on a black Star of David background.

	Under "JDL Website Highlights" there are a number of clickables
among associated text, one being:

"The Jewish Defense League publishes its official response to the
Southern Baptist Convention ..."

"Although this poem was written over 20 years ago, it is just as
relevant today. In fact, JDL leaders have chosen it as our official
response to the recent convention of the Southern Baptists."

          		"Never Again"
                 By Shmuel Ben Stern
                    
           (Edited for brevity and essence)
			
	         "The time has come for battle,        
		    ...
              No longer do we sit and wait
              And turn the other cheek,		    
		    ...
		    He smote the Egyptian dead.
              ...
		    The order that G-d gave him
		    Was to the tyrant show
		    ...
              ...
		    There are no fears of violence
		    To save another Jew
		    
		    Well, we care not for image
		    Nor for the velvet glove,
		    Our history has been bloodied
		    By acts of Christian love
              ...
		    

	Well so much for 'In your face'. The awesome 1 or 2% is ready for
"battle". The "official" JDL response.

	"The time has come for battle" 	    
 	"There are no fears for violence"
     against "acts of Christian Love".

	Ah yes, Nizkor and the JDL. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:30 PST 1996
Article: 89909 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Editorial: Scars of WWII written in permanent ink
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:00:07 GMT
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>Published Saturday, December 28, 1996 

>Editorial: Scars of WWII written in permanent ink

>Howard Kleinberg / Cox News Service

	Jews may write their wailings in "permanent ink" but revisionism
tears up the paper their written on.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:31 PST 1996
Article: 89910 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Extraordinary Absence
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:09:52 GMT
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	As the Holocaust facts and the more reliable non-Holocaust facts
have it, the Soviets set up investigating commissions to document the
crimes of the Germans in extermination camps. As text in the book
"Auschwitz: A History in Photographs" puts it, "The day after the
liberation, a special Soviet commission began to investigate the
crimes committed there and gather documentary evidence".

	At the heading of another Holocaust story account, presented in
Nizkor files, "FTP > camps > maidenek > maidenek .004", the copy of
the report is titled, "THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR
THE INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK
EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN".

	From this we might expect the Soviets did similar investigations
at other camps, and we might think any reports fell under the title of
"The Polish/Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating the
Crimes Committed by the Germans", with a further identification
associated with the particular camp being reported on, as with the
above.

	This camp is said to have had the commission right there at the
time of liberation as was the case with Auschwitz.

	We have to recognize they had opportunity for timely
investigation. We would expect that photography would be the number
one method of documentation, with any forensic test like chemical
analysis as another and archeological reconstruction as another as to
any ruins.

	One should think that any reports from these "Extraordinary
Commission(s)" would be valuable evidence for the truth of the
Holocaust story. 

	For some reason the Holocaust promotional network does not employ
these documents in their extensive onslaught of promoting the story.
Very little reference is made towards them in Holocaust books and the
first time I ever saw one with any actual report and not just referred
to, was in Nizkor files.

	In fact this particular document is one said to have been found
in the Hoover War Library, and is said to be in a 4 inch by 6 inch
format, which we might think is some kind of pamphlet. It refers to
itself as a "communique".

	When studying the validity of the Holocaust it soon becomes
evident that for the very most part the story is founded on eyewitness
testimony, with very little reference to any forensic studies. 

	There are many problems and questions with the report by the
Polish/Soviet Commission. Seems everything in it can raise a question
about something else. This one is dated 1944, yet it refers to
findings at Auschwitz which wasn't taken by the Soviets until 1945.

	The report also utilizes eyewitness testimony almost exclusively
compared to any physical forensic studies it says the Commission made.
A number of times the report will allude to some forensic study and
then confirm and expand on it with eyewitness testimony.
     The testimonies in this report all have something in common in
that they all give isolated exact dates for various incidents that
change little except the numbers, with not one of them able to give a
chronicle of the camp over an extended period of time.

	Just for a quick sampler of the nature of the related eyewitness
testimonies found on just two pages but exemplifying the rest in the
27 page "communique":

	 "The witness Zelent quoted the case of the asphyxiation by
means of gas of eighty-seven Poles on March 15, 1944.

        Another witness, Jan Wolski, a Pole, formerly a prisoner at
the camp, testified to the wholesale asphyxiation of people with gas.
        "In October 1942," he stated, "a large number of women and
children were brought to the camp.  The healthy ones were picked out
for work, ..."

In March l943, another two hundred and fifty women and children were
exterminated in the same chamber ... On May 16, or 17, 1943, one
hundred and fifty-eight children of ages ranging from two to ten were
brought to the camp in motor trucks... In June 1943, the camp
administration collected all the sick prisoners of war and civilian
prisoners ...

        Evidence concerning the wholesale asphyxiation of people by
means of gases was given at the meeting of the Commission by German SS
men who had served in the camp.

        Rottenfuhrer SS Hensche stated that on September 15, 1942,
three hundred and fifty persons including women and children, were put
to death in the gas chambers.

        Oberscharfuehrer SS Terner informed the Commission of the case
which occurred on October 16, 1943, of the asphyxiation in gas
chambers of five hundred persons, including many women and children.
        The selection of people to be put to death by asphyxiation was
systematically made by the German camp doctors Blanke and Rindfleisch.

        The aforesaid Ternes stated:
        "In the evening of October 21, 1943, camp doctor
Untersturmfuehrer SS Rindfleisch told me that day three hundred
children of ages ranging from three to ten were asphyxiated in the gas
chamber with the substance 'Cyklon'."

        German prisoner of war, Rottensfuehrer SS Theodor Schollen,
who served in the camp, stated:
        "I often saw this machine with trailers going to and fro
between the gas chambers and the crematorium.  It came from the gas
chamber loaded with corpses and went back empty."

	The most ridiculous testimony is one given by a Polish prisoner
that claims:
	"On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons
were shot in the camp.  Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp
prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from
the city and from other camps.  Three days before this wholesale
shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp,
behind the crematorium.  The shooting began in the morning and ended
late at night.  The people were stripped naked.  The SS men led them
to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to
lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with
automatic rifles.  On top of the corpses another row of living persons
was laid and these were also shot.  This went on until the trench was
filled.  The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth.
Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the
crematorium and on bonfires."
	In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the
shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed
loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp,
and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music.
        This wholesale shooting became widely known among the
inhabitants of Lublin."

	Another common denominator between testimonies is the non-common
denominator of none of them collaborating another. They all have their
own little details.

	Holocaust dependents might argue that these testimonies are only
extracts of more complete testimony, yet will we ever have access to
the full record? Is there a full record? 

	To get an idea of how ridiculous the technical studies were, we
can take note of, "The Committee of Technical Experts which carefully
examined construction of the furnaces found as follows:"
	"The furnaces were intended for the purpose of incinerating
corpses and were calculated to work continuously. Each furnace was
capable of holding four corpses at a time if the extremities were cut
off. The time to incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes, which
working day and night, made it possible to incinerate one thousand
nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty four hours. Judging by the
large quantity of bones discovered in all parts of the camp (in pits,
vegetable plots and under manure heaps), the Committee of Experts is
of the opinion that bones were removed from the furnace before the
time necessary for their complete incineration had expired, as a
consequence of the which the number of corpses incinerated in the
twenty four hours was far larger than one thousand nine hundred and
twenty." 

	The report states there were 5 furnaces installed at Majdanek.
Five times 16 (the number of bodies per hour) = 80 (the total number
of people per hour) 80 times 24 hours = 1920. We have to recognize
this would mean that whatever remains were left in the chambers when
unloading were taken out and immediately new chopped up corpses were
put in, with no cool down time whatsoever and the mathematics allowing
no time for the process. The report says that the remains were taken
out before the process took the corpses to ashes, and says this would
make it possible to cremate a "far larger" number than the 1920. In
this case we can't make a exact calculation because of the indefinite
"far larger". Sounds pretty significant. We start off with the
original figure 1920 so maybe conservatively we might say 200 more
would constitute "far larger".
	Whatever the figure, the more "far larger" the more it would
necessitate a faster cremation rate, even to the charred stage, which
would require each 15 minute load to be even shorter, and the 15
minute claim is ridiculous enough, even for burning bodies part way.
We don't want to forget we are talking about four bodies for each
load. 
	Adjusting the time factor for unloading and reloading it would
not be possible, using non-Holocaust physics, to go from one load to
another without a time period that would have to be accounted for.
This would include, opening the doors to the furnaces, removing
whatever remains there were under the conditions of the radiating
inferno of heat and the introduction of new bodies. What with the "far
larger" number reducing the time of 15 minutes for each four bodies
and the unloading of remains and introduction of new ones, the time
might be more like ten minutes cremation time per 4 body load. 
	Expert testimony today states that it takes from 1 1/2 to 2 hours
to cremate just one body to ashes. 	
	
	So here we have a sampling of the elements of this 27 page, 4" by
6" "communique", that someone found in the Hoover War Library after
they "came across" a reference to it.

	We can accept as fact that there were Extraordinary Commissions
by the Soviet and Polish governments, at least in name. From this we
should assume the full record was archived someplace. We should also
assume the records should contain massive confirmations for the truth
of the Holocaust story, at least from the view point of the Holocaust
dependents.
     From this we should ask, if these findings of the Commissions,
that were created from day one of liberation of camps, some of them
actually overtaking the camps while they were fully intact and should
have the most hardy record of mass extermination, why doesn't the
Holocaust promotional network, which has put extensive energy into
selling the story, utilize the findings of these Extraordinary
Commissions as part of the sales package?   	
 
	The reason should be pretty clear from what we can deduce from
this report. Because they are so utterly absurd. In fact, if we should
check out some of these Commission reports used as evidence at
Nuremberg, we could very well get the idea that none of the Soviet
evidence is even slightly creditable.

	Will anyone ever have access to checking out the full reports of
these Extraordinary Commissions? The full particulars of the forensic
studies and eyewitness testimonies? Will the Holocaust promotional
network ever present the full particulars to the Extraordinary
Commissions?

	No.   		  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:32 PST 1996
Article: 89912 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:10:56 GMT
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Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz

	To those who are new to alt.revisionism.
Take note of how 99.99% of the story is focused on Auschwitz. At one
time the Holocaust facts were that Auschwitz was the center for the
extermination of 4 million people. Currently it is somewhere around 1
million. Even, according to one of the Holocaust dependents most cited
authorities, the numbers are more like 600 thousand. Down, down, down
go the numbers.

	Yet there are other camps said to have been the centers for the
extermination of far greater numbers. Majdanek is said to have been a
place where 1.5 million were exterminated. Treblinka 2 million. 

	In addition to this, both Treblinka and Majdanek are said to have
been over run by the Soviets while they were still in operation and
that a "Extraordinary Commission" was installed within a day of the
capture to investigate any crimes whereas Auschwitz is said to have
ceased exterminating people 5 months prior to being over run and that
the Germans had initiated a demolition program to cover up the alleged
exterminations.

	One would think that with the numbers for Treblinka and Majdanek
each being 2 to 3 times that of Auschwitz and that they were over run
while still in full operation and that Auschwitz had destroyed all the
evidence, that the two former camps would be the center of focus to
show that the Holocasut story is true.

	Thus it appears the Holocaust dependents are presenting what we
should expect is the lesser evidence instead of what we should expect
would be the greater evidence.

	Interesting.    


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:33 PST 1996
Article: 89915 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is and what ain't - II
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:11:15 GMT
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	Jean Claude Pressac is a cited authority on the workings of the
Holocaust specializing in going over Soviet held German corporate
records for orders of equipment to Auschwitz. His book on what he
found, which is said to have taken ten years, is totally based on
nothing more than piecing together letters between the camp officials
and corporate repentatives, and shipping manifestos.

	He also presents a number of plans that are said to be
crematoriums, with front, back, end perspectives and elevations, along
with ground plans. The "crematorium" in Holocaust vernacular literally
means everything for the process of mass extermination, from gassing
to cremation.  

	One should expect that while Pressac was spending his ten years
in pouring over these records that he should have come across paper
work and plans for other camps, such as Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno
and Majdanek.

	All we can assume right now by the absence of what should be, is
that either Pressac found nothing or found something he chose not to
use.	



	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:34 PST 1996
Article: 89919 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: They took my spoon.
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:05:46 GMT
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	    "Proof of Suffering Is Price of Holocaust Repartition"
                     L.A. Times, June 4, 1996

(Sub header)
"Soviet Jews: Survivors tell of indelible horrors. But for many,
documenting them to qualify for aid is impossible." 

	"One can still hear the smack of the scythe smashing against her
head. Denting her skull ..." How much is that bitter taste worth?
...One can still feel the panic that swamped him as he stood in line,
waiting for the killers to get to his row. ...
	How much?
	How to quantify the indescribable? How to calculate the
unimaginable?
	How to compensate victims for the horrors of the Holocaust?
	Fifty-one years after Nazi Germany crumbled, those questions
haunt a dwindling group of Holocaust survivors.
	Most of their fellow survivors have long since received some
compensation -- not enough to erase their torment, of course, but
enough to cushion them through old age. The German government has paid
more than $60 billion to victims of the Nazis since WW II, and is
paying more than 130,000 survivors lifetime pensions--a commitment
that will cost another %20 billion over the next few decades.
	...
	...More than 90,000 Soviet emigrants world wide have applied for
this last chance to receive German pensions.
	...
	Perhaps the toughest requirement demands that survivors prove
their persecution with official documents--not eyewitness
testimony--before receiving pensions.
	When the Nazis stormed through a huge swath of Soviet territory
... they left behind detailed but disorganized records, said Radu
Iaonid, director of the registry of survivors at the Holocaust
Memorial Museum in Washington.
	The conquering soldiers might, for example, have jotted down that
they confiscated two silver teaspoons from Jew X ...
	....
	These days, negotiations have only gotten harder Jewish leaders
say. Memories of the war have faded. And Germany struggles with a
shaky economy, a disgruntled work force and unpopular cuts in social
programs. 
	...
	'The claims Conference' ... is not giving up'" 

                           ____________

	In a accompanying photograph is a Si Frumkin standing tough and
holding up his Star of David from his chain, a person who has had at
least 20 letters to the editor of the L.A. Times published, most often
justifying anything Zionist.

	The number of existing Jewish survivors is put at 130,000 which
is what remains of the "dwindling amount". Maybe we could say this is
less than half of those who said they were survivors. After all it is
50 years later and many of those must have died which would put the
number of survivors originally at over 260,000. Adding this to the
90,000 now applying we have 350,000.
	What constitutes a "survivor"? Well going by this report, anyone
having so much as a spoon confiscated is a surviving victim.
	Special note should be taken that the criteria for applying for
the money is not to be founded on "eyewitness testimony."
	It seems the German government is getting sick and tired of the
demands. And the "disgruntled" work force is not in any mood to have
their funds given over to some phony cause.
	Could it be the Jews will drive the population of Germany into
the revisionist energy? Could be. The Jews seem to always drive their
demands to a intolerable saturation point.
                             ____________	


	The focus of this article is on the Jews who have emigrated out
of the Soviet Union in the last few years. This all started after the
Jews began to assert wide scale "anti-Semitism" in that country. Of
the twelve major profiles done on individuals, not one account was
offered as to any incident they suffered, instead focusing on how
brilliant they are. As to the general accounts of the alleged
persecution, not one single account. 
	The whole thing with the flare up of the Soviet persecution began
after a number of articles, letters and columns complained of the Jews
being out populated by Arab birth rate in Israel proper.
	The whole thing was a lie.
	Hundreds of thousands of these Soviet Jewish emigres came to the
U.S. where they are now collecting U.S. pensions and saturating
convalescent facilities. 
	In a recent article in the Santa Monica daily newspaper, Outlook,
it went on about the 600 dollars a month the local population of
Soviet Jews is receiving was a hardship and not enough. The article
cited that 500 of them in the town were receiving this amount. 
	Santa Monica is a town that has hundreds of unemployed homeless
crouching for shelter in all sorts of nooks and crannies. Most of them
have to go through hell to get even a few dollars.
	The U.S. at one time refused special trading status to the 
Soviet Union founded on the allegations of anti-Semitism. While we
boycotted this nation on the grounds of the lie other nations moved in
to do trade that was denied America, the same thing that happens when
we boycott other Zionist enemies.
	Billions upon billions upon billions of the peoples hard earned
tax dollars going over this. America - Germany, nations of slaves to
lies.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:34 PST 1996
Article: 89926 of alt.revisionism
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.radio.talk,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,alt.revolution
Subject: Re: Clinton's next War
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:25:54 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:350331 alt.radio.talk:17006 alt.religion.islam:37569 alt.revisionism:89926



	I would say that Clinton, being directed by the Jews will start a
conflagulation in the Mid East, most likely in the beginning aimed at
Iran. 
	Clinton is going to try and stay in power by installing the
National Security Act, that says the democratic process can be
suspended in case of emergency.
	Keep your eyes on the press and watch the build up.

	Poor, poor spirit of the American lackey mentality. When the Jews
say go to war, all the heroic generals say, 'Aye, aye'.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec 29 23:00:35 PST 1996
Article: 89955 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:03:13 GMT
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	Seems the Holocaust story uses the records from the manufacturer
of Zyklon B to show that Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz. Seems some
of these records are missing. Whole years worth.
 			      	
    	Now who did it?
 
	Three main suspects. The Germans to cover up. Beneficiaries of
the Holocaust. Or revisionist types out to discredit the story.
	We might suspect a gradual rise in shipments to Auschwitz in
relation to the increasing population once it was set up which shown
graphically would be represented by a more of less straight line
rising steadily.
	What the records could show in addition to and in relation to the
existing records is that a sharp increase in orders took place around
the years the mass exterminations were said to have been at maximum
use, which could suggest it was for the extermination process.
Definitely, if this was the case this would be evidence for the
Holocaust story. This would direct the suspicious eye at Germans as
the thieves out to cover up or any revisionist type that would be out
to discredit the story. 
	
	On the other hand if the records were pretty consistent, showing
maybe an increase around the time of the epidemic of Typhus but not
for the high extermination period, this would be evidence for the
revisionist and the suspicious eye could turn to the beneficiaries and
perpetuators of the Holocaust story.
	
	But why would anyone only steal some of the records and not all
of them? Certainly, if they had the access and opportunity to steal
the number said, we could suppose they could have taken them all, but
some were left behind. Possibly someone wanted to make sure there was
some record, at least, to show Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz and
took the rest of the records so no overall record existed for
comparison.




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Dec 30 10:00:54 PST 1996
Article: 90008 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVayless Nizkor?
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 03:08:22 GMT
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	Could it be? Seems so.

	He's still there though - in a way.

	Now it's, Hilary "McVay" Ostrov.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:46 PST 1996
Article: 90052 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Annie Alpert discovers a "glaring" Moran "blooper"
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 19:58:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	This is the contents of an e-mail Moran received from Annie
Alpert in response to his post "Ultimate Responsibility". Moran being
an honest type, and not one for just shunning away a good undoing when
he gets one, boldly posts Annie's discovery that thoroughly discredits
Moran and his post. 

Letter from Annie Alpert:

	"tom moran wrote:
 
                       This is a repost.
 
 
         "Know ye not history and you are doomed to repeat it."
 
Tom--your opus here begins with a error of quotation.  The quote you
(actually, the true, uncredited author of the piece) present here is
by Geeorges Santanya and the actual quotation is:

"Those who do not remember the past are condemmed to repeat it."

No "ye"s, you'll notice.

If your article starts out with such a glaring blooper, how do you
expect anyone to take the rest of it seriously?  Honestly!  Why waste
our time with this?

-- 
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/

=======================================================================

	Boy, when Annie gets someone by the _alls, she's got em.		


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:47 PST 1996
Article: 90150 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Cremation Rates
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:03:54 GMT
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	Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz, barely
the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three bodies in twenty
minutes, as the Holocaust story has it.

	At Majdanek, the victims arms and legs were cut off so they could
stuff in four bodies all at once in each oven and then it took only
about ten minutes to reduce them to charred bone.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:47 PST 1996
Article: 90151 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:04:09 GMT
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Every day yellow school buses line up outside of the Holocaust
museums. The American kids file out and into the interiors of the
Ministries of Love where three fingers are held up and the kids are
ask, 'How many do you see?' The kids shout 'We see three'. The guide
says 'No. You see two'. The kids all yell back 'No we see three'. Then
they are taken through the Ministry of Love, they can't turn around,
or roam around, they have to run the full package. At the end, the
guide holds up three fingers and says, 'Now, how many do you see?' and
the kids all say 'Two'.
	Sort of like what happened to Winston Smith in George Orwell's
"1984" only without the rats being put to their throats. Not quite,
but the school curriculum requires.

	                                    





From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:48 PST 1996
Article: 90152 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocuster's Last Stand
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:03:18 GMT
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                       [repost]
	
	There are many aspects to the Holocaust story. Numbers, methods,
and locations are the basic ingredients. How many people were
exterminated, how and where.
	This could be listed under two general headings, camps and field.
	The camps would be those places set up or eventually modified
especially for the purpose of mass extermination.
	The field would head all the things said to have happened outside
of the camps as to mass extermination.
	Many of the camps once said to have been extermination centers
have already been deleted from the story, as is the same for many
methods once said to have been used.  
	As for the killings in the field, next to nothing has been found
that would even remotely substantiate the huge numbers said to have
been killed, sometimes as many 40,000 all in one night at a single
location.
	After all this and aside from all that is left, the conflict
between truth and fiction is all focused on Auschwitz. 
	Auschwitz is the soup can at the bottom of the pyramid. The
cornerstone. The focus of the whole story. Center stage. The last
tension in the wind up toy. Once the world sanity comes to recognize
the myths of Auschwitz everything else tumbles, melts and crys.
	All the talk about populations, the 3,000,000 names collected,
all the big tales, all the little tales, all the witnesses, all the
interpretations, all the confirming research, all the books, all the
museums, all the activity of the last fifty years, all will follow.
	Auschwitz, the vital frontier. When it all falls, it will be
Humpty Dumpty time. All the books and all the museums or anything else
will not be able to sustain belief or acceptance in whatever remains.
 
	Only a major revision to the First Amendment, enforced by 
totalitarian authority, can keep the Holocaust story true.
	




 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:49 PST 1996
Article: 90153 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Christians
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:05:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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 "Southern Baptist Convention Votes to Try to Convert Jews"
                    N.Y. Times, June 14, 1996

	"The Southern Baptist Convention today adopted a resolution
calling for efforts to convert Jews.

	Early reaction to the Southern Baptist's resoultion, ...
suggested that it was certain to strain relations with Jewish groups.

	News of the resolution, and of the missionary appointment,
brought criticism in interviews with two leading Jewish specialists in
interreligious relations.

	'My reaction is this is a great setback', said Rabbi A. James
Rudin, ... American Jewish Committee.

	Rabbi Leon Klenicki, ...Anti-Defamation League, ...said he was
'very sad' about the resolution, 'Especially after the Holocaust,
Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the Jews'.
                         ______________


	On the flip side of the page, was one of those full page
propaganda layouts by the same ADL, exploiting the wide spread fires
to black churches.
	          "The Fire of Hate Consumes Us All" 
	Below a 9" X 9" photo of a burning church the copy includes:
"They have defaced the values that affect each of us. They have
violated our American guarantees of freedom regardless of race,
religion or ethnicity".

	"At the Anti-Defamation League, we know all too well that people
of goodwill must never be silent in the face of bigotry. The
consequences of silence are deadly."

	"ADL will continue to combat hatred and bigotry on other fronts
as well--tracking and exposing haters and hate groups, promoting laws
against hate crimes ..."

	The full page ad winds up:
"Edmund Burke said it best, '"All that is necessary for the triumph of
evil is for good men to do nothing".

	Of course it is well documented how this ADL and all the other
Jewish organizations work very hard to silence any negative discussion
about Israel. And it is no secret that Holocaust revisionism is a hate
crime in the minds of the likes of the ADL.   
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:50 PST 1996
Article: 90154 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Swiger Lies
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 05:49:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <32f6b2d3.53112365@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <32c327c4.447387270@news.dmsc.net>, 
>cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
>
>>As the Holocaust is rapidly being exposed, for the Jewish lie that it
>>is, some might wonder just how such a seemingly well anchored edifice
>
>What "Jewish lie" has been "exposed," Mr. Swiger? As anyone
>perusing your archived material here
>(ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g) quickly
>discovers, you have never been successful at defending _your_ lies
>with regard to the Holocaust, let alone establishing anyone elses.
>
>[snip]
>
>>Oh aren't those Germans efficient! Incinerating corpses in OPEN PITS,
>>removing the ashes and making a pile all in about an hour! Telephone
>>your local crematory and ask then how long it takes to cremate a
>>single body. Don't even include the time necessary to pulverize the
>>bones. You'll find out it takes about an hour and one half utilizing a
>>gas fired chamber taht operates at many hundreds of degrees hotter
>>than an OPEN PIT. 
>
>Burning pits were used, Mr. Swiger - get used to it. After you
>have done so, you may wish to explain how the time required to
>cremate a single corpse in a modern furnace has any relevance to
>the Holocaust. Take your time - we'll wait.

	Hilary, what have you done with McVay?

	Any way, Hilary, as to your incredibly idiotic question of what
relevance present day cremation rates has to the Holocaust - The
Holocaust story claims some way out rates which aren't supported to be
in the realm of possiblitity by comparing them to modern rates.
It's a matter of eyewitness accounts opposed to reality.
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:50 PST 1996
Article: 90218 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiger's Holocaust Nonesense
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:48:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32cc27ac.758239@199.0.216.204>
References: <32c33489.450656808@news.dmsc.net> <5a1cue$1l6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32c49178.539997574@news.dmsc.net> <5a9qm1$cjf@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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>In article <32c49178.539997574@news.dmsc.net>, 
>cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>definition of abstracts. There is no reality in "right" and "wrong",
>
>Sorry, I can't buy that, Mr. Swiger. I am an absolutist of sorts,
>and I _do_ believe in concepts like "wrong."
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html

	Hilary, what the hell have you done with McVay?


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:51 PST 1996
Article: 90219 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:55:22 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <32cf2919.1123490@199.0.216.204>
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>In <32e4f474.4378456@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>>	Of course as far as the general person on the street knows about
>>the Holocasut story, the "gas" factor is the number one, if not the
>>only thing they know about the Holocaust story.
>
>>	Yet how many would know that this gas can be picked up, scattered
>>around, poured and could rattle in cans?
>
>>	Holocaust gas comes in pieces, "pellets". They could have any
>>shape, the Holocaust gas being sort of disc shaped.
>
>Tom Moran, who should know better, is referring to the various
>carriers for hydrogen cyanide. The manufacturers of Zyklon-B
>impregnated several carriers with HCN including diatomaceous earth,
>silica gel, and wooden discs.

	I'll bet there are some neat little toys one could make out of
those other forms.


>>	You could take about ten of these gases and drill holes right
>>through the center, take about 6 of them and wire them together into a
>>cylinder, then take two more and string them on a wire about the
>>cylinder width apart, then do the other 2 the same way, put the two
>>pairs of gases on a table facing each other longwise, take the pieces
>>of gas wired into a cylinder and place one end on the wire seperating
>>two of the gases and the other end on the wire between the other two,
>>and you have yourself a neat little toy car.  
>
>And then Tom Moran has himself a good little laugh about the mass
>murder of human beings.

	I make fun of fiction.

>--
> John Morris                                
> at University of Alberta  
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:52 PST 1996
Article: 90226 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:08:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <32d22bbd.1798958@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
># "eyewitness" accounts of what they saw.
>
>As noted here, many times, the physical evidence to the
>Holocaust includes:
>
> - Many documents and photographs.

	You say it. That's it.

> - Huge numbers of corpses and human remains in some of the camps.

	You say it, but you refuse to show it.

> - Some of the gas chambers, with cyanide traces on their walls.

	Try it out. 

> - Some of the mass graves, discovered after the war.

	Show it.

>Thus, there is far greater physical evidence for the Holocaust
>than for:

	"Thus"? You conclude with "thus" following nothing more than a
series of announcements?

> - The bombing of Dresden.
>
> - The death of German civilians after the war.
>
> - Stalin's atrocities.
>
>It's very simple. It should be clear to any rational person. But
>"Holocaust revisionists" are not rational people.

	

>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:52 PST 1996
Article: 90233 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "10,000"  to "100,000" Anne Franks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:54:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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3	
	                      Obituary 
       "Magda Denes Is Dead at 62; Wrote of Hiding From Nazis"
                        N.Y.Times, Dec.31, 1996

	Magda Denes, a psychoanalyst who had just completed a book
recounting her torment as a Jewish child hunted by the Nazis in
wartime Budapest, was found dead on Saturday at her home in Manhattan.
She was 62.
	She apparently had suffered a heart attack ...
	Dr.Dene's second book, 'Castles Burning: A Child's Life in War'
is to be published in January by W.W.Horton. A book party was planned
... after which Dr.Denes was to give readings and interviews around
the U.S. and Europe ...
	The book recounts Dr.Denes's ordeal as one of the so-called
hidden children, estimated to number from 10,000 to 100,000, who spent
World War II in stables and caves and secret rooms like Anne Frank's
annex in Amsterdam. ...
	For five months in 1944, months before liberation by Soviet
forces ...
	....
	....
	Interviewed along with other childhood survivors of the Nazis in
1991, Dr.Denes said she had long struggled to break her silence. 'The
hidden children are in a curious position', she said. 'They were not
deported and they were not killed. So they never felt entitled to talk
about their own experiences'.
	'Holocaust survivors tend to be totally absorbed with that
experience, while hidden children have tried to forget what happened
to them.'"
=======================================================================

	So here we have an example of the usual Holocaust numerical
recounting, "10,000" or ten times that amount, "100,000". In this case
it is Jewish children living out the life of Anne Frank.

	We will just have to wait until her book comes out to see how she
arrived at the either/or numbers. 	


	"Interviewed along with other childhood survivors of the Nazis in
1991, Dr.Denes said she had long struggled to break her silence. 'The
hidden children are in a curious position', she said. 'They were not
deported and they were not killed. So they never felt entitled to talk
about their own experiences'."

	Seems here she is saying two things at once. They were not
deported but then they had to hide out from the Germans.
		
	"Holocaust survivors tend to be totally absorbed with that
experience, while hidden children have tried to forget what happened
to them."

	We will just have to wait and see how she explained this in her
book.

	As it stands now it is said that "10,000" or "100,000" children
are said to have been Anne Frank mirror images and we have one
accounting.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:53 PST 1996
Article: 90237 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVayless Nizkor?
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:51:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32ce2861.939107@199.0.216.204>
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>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         Could it be? Seems so.
>> 
>>         He's still there though - in a way.
>> 
>>         Now it's, Hilary "McVay" Ostrov.
>
>But Tommy!  How's the wife and kids?

	Why do you ask?

>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 14:14:05 PST 1996
Article: 90255 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wiesenthal float in the Rose Bowl Parade?
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 18:41:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <32d30a06.15820047@199.0.216.204>
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>
>	Yup. Get ready.
>
>	Listen real close while the lackey TV announcers slobber all over
>themselves in a show of doting loyalty as the float floats by.

	Will it be the feature photograph in L.A.Times reporting the next
day? What kind of copy will be with it? We will just have wait and
see.

	We could imagine there are going to be scores of floats and
scores of reports in various magazines and we can wait and see which
floats will get the preponderance of the coverage.

	Could it be the Wiesenthal float is a shoe in for the winner for
the best float?

	Whoa, there's all kinds of scenarios we could fantacize on.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 14:14:06 PST 1996
Article: 90258 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:04:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <32d12a11.1371092@199.0.216.204>
References: <32d5f322.4040667@199.0.216.204> 
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>Huge numbers of corpses in some of the camps.
>
>Huge amounts of human remains in some of the camps.

	Show it.

>Cyanide traces on the walls of the gas chambers.

	Show it.

>And Moran thinks that the forensic evidence is on the
>"revisionist" side. Amazing.

	You show your evdience, and I'll show it works for revisionism.

>Moran, you keep evading the following question: what is
>the forensic evidence that Dresden was bombed? What is
>the forensic evidence to Stalin's atrocities?

	I don't know anything about Dresden or Stalin casualties. You
play with it and I'll stick to the Holocaust.

	Now post your evidence for "huge amounts". 

>You know that it is zero, right? So, if you deny the
>Holocaust, why don't you deny them as well? After all,
>there is forensic evidence for the Holocaust, and none
>for these other events.

	Show them. If you say it, show it.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>PS - still waiting for your explanation about the
>     non-existing testimony you posted a few days ago.
>     Please, don't tell me you have no idea what I'm
>     talking about.
>
	I have no idea what your talking about.

	"Huge amounts" Mr.Keren?


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 14:14:07 PST 1996
Article: 90261 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewishness is a "gift"
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:09:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <32c7cd1e.228488@199.0.216.204>
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>
>	Random House Dictionary
>
>	"gift" - no.4, a special ability or capacity; a talent.
>
>	This would be the application of what Leonard Nemoy speaks of in
>his go at bat under a continuously placed ad by the "The American
>Jewish Committee" - "What Being Jewish Means To Me".
>
>	"Being Jewish is a gift, not a burden. I treasure that identity."

	This should be recognized to mean a racial gift.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 14:14:08 PST 1996
Article: 90262 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is and what ain't - II
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:09:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 3
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	If this is post is titled "What is and what ain't - II", where
the hell is "What is and what ain't - I"?


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 14:14:08 PST 1996
Article: 90263 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THE MOSES MYTH
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:10:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <32c9cd3b.257213@199.0.216.204>
References: <59s38j$rb0@explorer2.clark.net> <32c93271.11858184@news.demon.co.uk> <32ca4a64.3839037@199.0.216.204> <5a7bm8$fgr@explorer2.clark.net>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>	This book cites the contents of "Proverbs" as having an Egyptian
>>origin.
>
>This might account for the appearance of the mysterious godlike 
>entity Wisdom who appears in parts of Proverbs and nowhere else 
>in the Bible. But I'd suppose the book had more than one source.

	Very possible. Actually I think I recall the Almanac saying that
at least part of Proverbs coming from the Egyptians, more so than all.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 14:14:09 PST 1996
Article: 90264 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Wiesenthal float in the Rose Bowl Parade?
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 18:19:50 GMT
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	Yup. Get ready.

	Listen real close while the lackey TV announcers slobber all over
themselves in a show of doting loyalty as the float floats by.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 14:14:10 PST 1996
Article: 90265 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:40:37 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># How many people would think that the main gas said to
># have been used for extermination, the gas that is at
># the center of the Auschwitz story, was, in Holocaust
># reality, pellets made for fumigation purposes.
>
>The pellets, however, release HCN, the same gas used
>to this day to execute condemned criminals in some
>US prisons.

	When they use HCN for purposes of execution it is not in the form
of pellets. They don't just go out and use some product that's just
happens to be laying around, like was the case for Zyklon B. The
procedure used today stands in contrast to what is alleged for the
Holocaust gas.
	We can wonder why the Germans wouldn't have used something
similar.

>A rather logical choice to use for mass murder, more
>so since it was available in large quantities and
>very cheap.

	To suggest it was cheaper and more readily available than carbon
monoxide is ridiculously naive, or corrupt. Of course you didn't say
"carbon monoxide" but we know this is the alternative. We could
theorize that the carbon monoxide gotten simply from the exhaust of
running engines would be 10 times, 20 times cheaper than Zyklon B
which was the result of a number of manufacturing steps, some of them
requiring safety precautions, then packaging in cans and then cartons,
then shippment. Perhaps we could say the carbon monoxide was 10 to 20
times more available than Zyklon B, and 30 to 40 times cheaper.
Probably a lot more.

	Then there are those other variables, according to Holocaust
accounts. 

Handling 
  Zyklon B.
	Need gas masks.
	Gloves suggested.
	Special levers to take off lids.
	Special training.
	Awkward introduction systems.
	Ventilation systems.
	Doctors.
	Washing out the chambers after each gassing.
	Protective clothing for Sonderkommandos.

Handling
  carbon monoxide
	Connect engine exhaust to pipe.
	Turn lever.


Availability
  Zyklon B
	Has to be ordered and shipped from manufacturer.  

Availability
  carbon monoxide
	Everywhere.


Costs (theoretical)
  Zyklon B
	Twelve dollars per gassing

Costs (theoretical)
  carbon monoxide
	Three cents per gassing.

>So what's your point?

>-Danny Keren.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Dec 31 18:36:13 PST 1996
Article: 90301 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000"  to "100,000" Anne Franks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 23:11:29 GMT
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>On Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:54:18 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>3	
>>	                      Obituary 
>>       "Magda Denes Is Dead at 62; Wrote of Hiding From Nazis"
>>                        N.Y.Times, Dec.31, 1996
>
>>	We will just have to wait and see how she explained this in her
>>book.
>>
>>	As it stands now it is said that "10,000" or "100,000" children
>>are said to have been Anne Frank mirror images and we have one
>>accounting.

	Actually Giwer, I 'canceled' this article in that I realized it
was untimely and not appropriate under the circumstances.

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