The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0896


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 06:11:10 PDT 1996
Article: 54738 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 04:15:22 GMT
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weinecks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Silke-Maria  Weineck) wrote:

>Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) wrote:
>
>:          In the USA there has been built a special holocaust museum in
>:        spite of the fact that the American Jews have never suffered any
>:        particular harm and have always been among the most well educated
>:        and affluent. 
>
>
>In Philadelphia, they built a Picasso museum, despite the fact that 
>Picasso was European. Goes to show how crazy these Americans are.

	
But then art is one thing and Holocaust museums are another.

>
>S.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 06:11:11 PDT 1996
Article: 54739 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgery
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 04:12:14 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

	Of course if it was an attempt at a "forgery" Moran would have
taken out the markers for the original text to make it look like it
was all one thing. Then there is the problem, for the "forgery"
theory, that it was posted in response to the original which was still
there at the head of the thread. 

Poor Mr.Keren, he's so desperate.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:57 PDT 1996
Article: 54878 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:24:31 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Why don't you just tell us about any flue system, Mr.Keren, 
># Professor Keren, former Professor Keren and/or former 
># impersonating Professor Keren?
>
>Are you suggesting I am an "impersonating Professor"?
>
>You're making a serious accusation here, which may well
>be criminal libel. Think about it.

	Now it seems I have given Mr.Keren a tangent to go on. Any way,
Mr.Keren, isn't it true you touted yourself as a professor, and let
yourself be addressed as a professor many times, and never offered a
correction until one day you stated that you weren't really a
professor, but some sort of engineer?

	Of course Mr.Keren has no problem calling people "Nazis".  
>
>I know you have a big inferiority complex, which makes
>you throw these childish, infantile insults at me. But
>do try to control yourself, you senile twit.
>
># "What floor?"
>
>Yes, what floor, you poor, mentally retarded clown. What
>floor. What floor do you claim the flues ran underneath?
>
>Can you answer a simple question? 

	I believe the Holocasut story states that the 5 coke ovens in
Cremas II and III had flue systems to carry the burn off to the
chimney out side, under the floor of the buildings - the Crema floor.
	The fact is there must have been some kind of system to carry the
burn off from the five raging coke fires to the single chimney which
was located out side and away from the immediate area of the ovens
themselves.

	Now that you have gotten an answer, again, maybe you would like
to clear things up, in that respect, and then we can return to the
points of the original post, the necessity for a huge heat dissipation
system. 

>-Danny Keren.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:58 PDT 1996
Article: 54879 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:24:37 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>In reply to Moran's recycled denier rubbish (where _does_ he get this
>absurd stuff?) I will continue repost the following reply:


>> The Holocaust story has it that there were five retorts (fire
>> chambers) heating three ovens each for a total of fifteen in Crema II.


>Kremas II and III had five (5) furnaces with three (3) muffles (retorts) each.

>> The story has it that underground flues were installed to direct the
>> thermal intense fumes and ashes away from the retorts and to a chimney
>> located out side of the building. 

>The underground flues to vent the hot exhaust gases from the furnaces are
>easily discerned in the construction drawings of the Krema II .

	There you have it Mr.Keren. Maybe you can keep asking your
collegue here for the same claifications you have been asking me,
about the "floors". 

> The
>incinerated human remains fell through the chamotte grid of the retort
>into the ash collection channel at the base of the furnace, then pulled
>forward towards the ash collection door until they were _completely_
>incinerated, and then manually removed. They were _not_ vented through the
>chimney along with the hot exhaust gases. 

	The ashes referred to are those that would be carried away in the
smoke not to mean the bulk of the ashes that would be there if
cremation took place. Hot gases is the topic, and the need for some
kind of cooling system to the flues. 

>> In some cases the location of a retort might require running any duct system 
>> as far 40 or 50 feet to the stack outside.
>
>Indeed. One of the first problems with Krema I, for instance, was that the
>draft of the chimney was insufficient because the chimney was too short.
>Kohler, a local engineering expert, ended up _adding_ a 12 m (underground)
>flue to the (modified) 15 m chimney to create a draft of 27 m to solve the
>problem. (cf. _Anatomy_, p.212.)

Indeed, we are talking about Crema II and or III, and here you are
with Crema I. 

>> The fires are said to have been raging all day, day after day,
>> week after week onto months. 

>The furnaces were to said have been operated continuously _periodically_.
>Specifically, during certain special Aktions, most notably Aktion Ho"ss,
>in which approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz
>between  May 15 to July 9, 1944. (cf. _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.627; _Death
>Dealer_, p.45.) Of these 480,000 Hungarian Jews, about 394,000 (90%) were
>murdered in the gas chambers on or shortly after their arrival at
>Auschwitz II-Birkenau. 

	"May 15 to July 9", '1900 to 1996', or from any 'May 1 to May 3',
the heat would have been tremendous in the flues.

>That the Kremas did not typically operate continuously "all day, day after
>day, week after week onto months" can easily be seen by fact that there
>were gaps in the arrival of transports to Auschwitz (cf. _Auschwitz
>Chronicle_) and that some of the Kremas were not on-line for significant
>periods of time (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.233-237). Krema IV was disabled shortly
>after it became operational in 1943 and was not subsequently used
>thereafter (cf. Ibid. p.234). Krema V, for example, was idled through much
>of (late) 1943 and only came on line in May of 1944 for Aktion Ho"ss (cf.
>Ibid. p.238).  Krema I was retired in early 1943 and subsequently
>converted into a bomb shelter (cf. Ibid. p.159).

	Regardless, considerable periods of time went on with the
furnaces burning continuously.

>> In this case we have to consider the likelihood that intense heat would build 
>> up in the flue system, it being subjected to temperatures of 1500
>degrees F or 
>> more on a continuous basis.
>
>The temperature in the underground flues was typically around 500-700 C.
>The temperature of the furnaces themselves was somewhat higher- 800-1,000
>C. (cf. _Technique_, p. 137.) Furthermore, according to the operating
>instructions for the Topf double and triple-muffle furnaces, the operating
>temperature was to have been kept _below_ 1,100 C by introducing fresh air
>(from the pulsed air blower.) (cf. Ibid. p.136.) 

	Okay, I used F temperature and you use C. The temperatures would
be close to each other and still extreme. All the extra stuff wasn't
necessary, right? Just some out of breath extra stuff to dilute the
situation. 

>> Five of these flue arms converging from a radiating pattern
>> beneath the floors of the building would have to have some negative
>> effect. The heat wouldn't be able to dissapate fast enough through the
>> soil, the soil temperature itself would have to hit hundreds of
>> degrees. 
>
>And does Moran provide the heat exchange equations to support this?

	Does Moran need to supply any "heat exchange equations" to pose
the problem? No.

>No.
>Does he provide historical evidence? No.

	Exactly. There isn't any. No Pressac stuff to show there was any
equipment shipped to make up what would be necessary for the problem
posed. And there isn't any aechological evidence either. If there was,
the Holocaust story would be playing it up.

> Does he state what specific
>problems to the Krema(s) this "negative effect" might cause? 

	Did he state that the floors would be extremely hot? Yes. Does
one need any "heat exchange equations" to consider the reprocussions
that would ensue? No. The building would have to be very hot, what
with five flues below, at "500 to 700 C", not to mention the ovens on
the floor. 
	From your figures, "500 to 700 C", transferring through the walls
of the flue, to the soil, for months on end, even if they were set 20
feet under ground a good part of the heat would eventually transfer to
the building and surrounding areas. The deeper they are said to be,
the more they should still be there after all the tales of the Germans
blowing up the facilites.

>No. Well,
>what _does_ Moran provide in support of his "claims?" Evidently, nothing
>but his _own_ hot-air. How typical.
>
>> How was this flue system constructed? It would need very special
>> attention. Special pump systems to draw the hot expended gases and ash
>> down into the ground and then to the chimney, a housing chamber for
>> the motor and workings and some kind of heat dissapation system for
>> the flues. 
>
>Indeed in Kremas I, II, and III we know that they were initially equipped
>with forced-draft ventilation systems. 
>
>> Just trying to ballpark a design musters up a vision of a
>> sizable undertaking, probably requiring technology the Germans hadn't
>> had to develope before. 
>
>Obviously, Moran's "vision" is rather limited in scope and understanding.
>The Germans did indeed develop and use such technology. In fact, said
>"technology" was rather mundane. In Krema I, for instance,  it consisted
>of a rotary damper in the chimney to route the air flow past, a
>moter-driven fan, to force a draft. The  fan/motor was water-cooled. When
>the draft was established the damper was switched to route the exhaust
>gases back through the base of the chimney (closing off passage to the
>fan/motor) and the fan shut off. (cf. Ibid. p.137.) During continuous
>operation, when the furnaces were hot, the draft was already well
>established and the forced draft ventilation system was not used. 

	Here he is again with Crema I. And even here he avoids the
temperature issue. 

>> Holocaust researcher, Pressac, has poured over these records for
>> ten years and has presented his culminating conclusions by dramatic
>> prose, citing orders for this or that, presenting plans and systems
>> layouts and citing communications.
>
>Indeed he has. And if Moran had actually examined Pressac's work in detail
>he would have realized that it clearly contradicts his insinuations. 
>
>> But no where is there an account of any system that would be
>> required to make the claimed flue system work.
>
>Not true. See above. 

	Wait a minute. Why didn't you say 'See Pressac'? Better yet, why
don't you show Pressac?

Poor Mr.VanAlstine. "Crema I". "From May 15 to July 9". "500 to 700
C". "Heat exchange equations". "If Mr.Moran had actually examined
Pressac's work in detail ...". 

	Well so much for evasions and tangents.  

>[more specious conjecture snipped]
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:59 PDT 1996
Article: 54882 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgery
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:31:32 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>  
>>  	Of course if it was an attempt at a "forgery" Moran would have
>>  taken out the markers for the original text to make it look like it
>>  was all one thing. Then there is the problem, for the "forgery"
>>  theory, that it was posted in response to the original which was still
>>  there at the head of the thread. 
>>  
>>  Poor Mr.Keren, he's so desperate.
>>  
>>>>>
>	I don't think Dr. Keren is the desperate one here, l'il tommy.  Your post 
>wsa a forgery.  If it wasn't why didn't you try that scummy trick again?
>
>	--YFE

	If and when the opportunity and/or the mood should hit me to make
satire and/or pose testimony that should be there - I will.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:59 PDT 1996
Article: 54883 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:35:25 GMT
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
>: declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
>: the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
>: 	It is tacit declaration they know they would lose, that they
>: don't have faith in their position, that they know deep down inside or
>: are consciously aware their own position sucks. 
>: 	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
>: open discussion on the Holocaust. 
>
>I realize that trying to make sense of a MoranPosting [tm] is a 
>guaranteed method of causing confusion, but I really am having trouble
>with the intention of this posting.  Is Moran admitting that he is
>a coward, or is he indicating that he plans to take Yale Edeiken up on
>his offer?

	You mean "take up Yale on his offer" to have Moran turn himself
in? Or do you mean Yale's refusal to go at it right here? 

	Coward? Shooting down little kids in the streets is coward,
Shultz.

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 16:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 54884 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:37:55 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:37:32 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>
>>Chuck Ferree writes to Moran, the turkey with no answers.
>
>
>
>>tom moran wrote:
>
>>clips
>
>>> >Questioning as usual for someone to please explain for him in lay terms, how the heat from the crematoriums was handled. Which of course is Moran's contribution to the current debate about how the Nazis burned their millions of victims.
>
>>Easy, Moran...oooops (third person)  Mr. Moran should understand that 
>>burning 3-4 million dead people (also some live ones too) is easy once 
>>you know how.
>>>
>
>	Are you certain you are not Alec Grynspan?  

	I don't think Chuck is in the position to answer that Giwer. The
cross over is so similar, it's too hard to distinguish.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 16:44:01 PDT 1996
Article: 54886 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:44:50 GMT
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <31ff6f85.6210644@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <31fe1de3.541560@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>> >moran) wrote:
>> >
>> >>         This is the first of Moran's commentary after a excursion into
>> >> Nizkor files on Belzec, a camp said to be one where 600,000 people
>> >> were exterminated, "most of them Jews".
>> >
>> >Why do you keep referring to yourself in the third person ?
>> 
>> When it's 'convenient'. Why do you keep writing in the zero person?
>> 
>> >[mindless attempt to deny the Holocaust removed - see original article]
>
>I didn't ask you when you boob, I asked why. I know when you do it. I wnat
>to know why you do it. Do you find it easier to spew garbage if you
>disassociate yourself from it ?

	You seem like a good candidate to explain how the Germans got the
shoes up on the pile that was six stories high. Go for it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  1 16:44:02 PDT 1996
Article: 54895 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 16:51:47 GMT
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	Okay, more goofy/slithery stuff from Nizkor.

	Nizkor people and their loyal followers will constantly refer the
alt.revisionism reader to Nizkor files. As of late the topic of the
release rate of HCN from the fumigation product Zyklon B has been
under constant discussion. Nizkor personal and the Nizkor followers
have repeatedly referred to a publication by a Gerhard Peters, which
is scanned into the Nizkor files and is written in German.

	The repeated practice by Nizkor and followers has been to simply
post a long list (16) of ftp references to this publication.[included
at the end]  Which being scanned in like a photo takes that long to
retrieve each page.
	
	As it turns out, if we should go to Nizkor>ftp>camps>auschwitz we
will now get Zyklon B - "evaporation rates".

Referring to the Peters' paper, Nizkor states "The most relevant
material is on page 136" which means anyone citing the whole list of
Peters' entries, as has been the practice, is grossly misleading, if
not harassment, even to those faithful to the Holocaust story.

Nizkor continues;
"1. (there is no '2.') In all cases, the most substantial part of the
development of the gas had taken place/been effected after one, or at
most, two hours. ...
	Hence the evaporation of the prussic acid/HCN did not slow down
considerably because of low temperatures.
	This and other material found in Dr.Peters' book totally refutes
'revisionist' lies about the rate of evaporation of Zyklon B."
                                             Signed, D.Keren

	Here we will have to wait and see what the exact translation will
turn out to say as to the prussic acid mentioned and the product
Zyklon B. Mr.Keren/Nizkor claim here that it refutes "revisionist
lies". What the "lies" are, Nizkor/Keren do not care to discuss so we
can't tell if they have in fact refuted any "lies". How would we know
if they are refuting any lies if they don't cite them? What the "other
material" is they do not say. I guess they would just have the reader
think, 'Oh they have other material, wow, okay, that's all I have to
know'. 

	We should take note that the discussion does not specify Zyklon
B, only prussic acid. As far as we know at this time it could have
been in liquid or powder form. If it turns out the "one to two hours"
applies to these forms we would have to consider the likely hood that
the release rate would be much longer when any HCN has to disengage
itself from the Zyklon B carrier. Either way, even the one to two hour
rate would severely stress any notion that Zyklon B was a suitable
agent for mass extermination, especially since the average gassing
time is said to be just ten minutes, which would suggest considerable
HCN left over in the pellets after the process.

	Under another associated entry, "zykon - patent - excerpt", we
get a copy of the excerpt in German first, and then under "meaning",
instead of the word 'translation', we are given the Nizkor version.

	"The prussic acid will evaporate in approx. 10 minutes if the
contents of the can is strewn in a thin layer.
	However the grain size of the absorbent isn't specified."

	"However" it appears that Zyklon B is not specified either. As
for any "grain size", as far as we know it could be powder, or even
liquid. Whether or not the words "can" or "strewn" appears in the
original German text we do not know, unless we can read German.
                        ==================

[Below is how D.Keren submits reference to the release rate of HCN in
Zyklon B from Nizkor files, as do others, including Jamie McCarthy,
who once tried to get away with saying the release rate was "10
minutes" and then retracted the attempt after being pinned down for
the details.] 	
                      ==================
Posted by D.Keren;

"The material from Dr. Peters' book - including the
mention, with a photograph, of the Erco carrier, which our
mentally retarded Nazis claim didn't exist - is in

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images

peters-03.jpg (ref)
peters-04.jpg (ref)
peters-58.jpg (ref)
peters-59.jpg (ref)
peters-60.jpg (ref)                      
peters-61.jpg (ref)                      
peters-62.jpg (ref)                      
peters-63.jpg (ref) 
peters-64.jpg (ref) 
peters-65.jpg (ref)      

The material from the Peters-Rach paper, which discusses the
out gassing time of the HCN (which our mentally retarded Nazis
over-estimated by a factor of 16) is in the same directory:

peters-rasch-132.jpg (ref)
peters-rasch-133.jpg (ref)
peters-rasch-134.jpg (ref)
peters-rasch-135.jpg (ref)
peters-rasch-136.jpg (ref)
peters-rasch-137.jpg (ref)

-Danny Keren.

	It's kind of funny that Mr.Keren writing in English, refers
people to a source that is written in German.
                            ====================

	
	.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:32 PDT 1996
Article: 54982 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgery
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 03:45:12 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <32017950.46611002@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <32002e88.3393156@news.pacificnet.net> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>
>Liar and forger Tom Moran, tm@pacificnet.net, writes:

	Is this the same nitwit that bellows foul if someone should call
him a 'impersonating' figure? Is this the same nitwit that calls
people "liars", "forgers" and "Nazis"? Seems so. 
	
	The problem with this person is that Moran is lumping him up with
his revelations and points. It's driving him crazy. He's on the ropes.

	

># Of course if it was an attempt at a "forgery" Moran
># would have taken out the markers for the original text 
># to make it look like it was all one thing. 
>
>That would probably be a criminal deed - because it would
>have made it seem as I posted something which I didn't;
>guess Moran wasn't ready to go that far.

	Does this mean he recognizes Moran's response? Seems so. 
He says if Moran had actually taken out the markers it would have been
a "criminal deed". But then so is "forgery".

>The fact is that Moran added forged Q&A's to the original
>ones, in exactly the same format, *without* specifying
>that these are his additions.

	The working of the programs specifies the preceding text and the
responding text, isn't that right Mr.Keren. It's obvious with your
posting of the 'evidence'. Of course Mr.Keren put "without" between
those little "*"s. This gives it extra stress - "*without*". Now that
is impressive. Nevertheless the copy Mr.Keren posted shows there was
no attempt at making it look like it belonged with the original text.
	Poor Mr.Keren, he resurrects this charge every time Moran posts
something really devastating to the Holocaust story's credibility.

	This time around it is in response to one of Moran's latest post,
"What is, and what ain't".

	Check it out where he keeps asking "what floor?" in response to
Moran's posting about an underground flue system that the Holocaust
story says existed, and then right in the middle of Mr.Keren's asking
"what floor" for about the fifth time, one of his collegues jumps in
to confirm the story has an account of an underground flue system.
 
	We'll have to wait and see if Mr.Keren is going to continue to
ask "what floor?" in lieu of that development.

># Poor Mr.Keren, he's so desperate.
>
>The poor one is Tom Moran, who is a cheap liar and forger.

	Moran can't wait to see what Mr.Keren has to say about his latest
post "Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff".
	
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:33 PDT 1996
Article: 55001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 03:43:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 33
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:



>	"However" it appears that Zyklon B is not specified either. As
>for any "grain size", as far as we know it could be powder, or even
>liquid. Whether or not the words "can" or "strewn" appears in the
>original German text we do not know, unless we can read German.

	My experience with Nizkor files is that they can't be printed
directly as with all other websites, including 'revisionist' websites.
When putting them on floppy and transferring them over to a word
program (Word Perfect), it comes up "Unkown Format".

	Even a print out can be denied to those who are firm believers.
They probably have one of those special devices that Nizkor says you
need to have, or used to say you had to have. Evidently Nizkor doesn't
want anyone to be able to print the stuff out too readily so as to be
able to do a study or to just post the material on alt.revisionism
with a inserted critique.

	This is why I video most of my accesses to Nizkor, from the time
I start the machine, through the whole procedure of bringing up Nizkor
and going to it's files. All the time the seconds on the time display
going by on the computer screen which gives it extra credibility as to
the true unaltered nature of the documentation.

	You never know when the conditions may come up to have to prove
something, and just citing what you saw, or even having a print out
could give room for denials.                        ==================





From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:34 PDT 1996
Article: 55002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 03:45:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <320179cf.46737989@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>		
>	Okay, more goofy/slithery stuff from Nizkor.

>    .... 

>	Hence the evaporation of the prussic acid/HCN did not slow down
>considerably because of low temperatures.
>	This and other material found in Dr.Peters' book totally refutes
>'revisionist' lies about the rate of evaporation of Zyklon B."
>                                             Signed, D.Keren


	This passage about the irrelevance of temperature is kind of
interesting in that the Holocaust story has it that buckets of hot
embers were lowered into the gas chambers in order to increase the
temperature so as to make the Zyklon B more active and ready to give
off it's HCN.

	I'm not sure, but this part of the story may say this was the
procedure during winter time. How much a few buckets of embers could
heat up the large chamber would be insignificant. There is also the
problem of heat rising and the pellets were lowered or dropped to the
floor.

	The accounts of the Holocaust story will never let you down as to
denying itself. You see one account one place and the next thing you
know there is an account that lumps up the other.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:35 PDT 1996
Article: 55041 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 13:55:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 78
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>[Yet again repeating the old nonsense about Zyklon-B]
>
>Shrug. Either this person is mentally retarded, or he's
>trolling. I can only respond as I did in the past. It's
>an FAQ now, I guess.
>
>But it has been explained to you, over and over again, that what
>you write above is a lie. The HCN evaporates much faster than what
>you claim. You admit you have no technical source to support your
>claims re the evaporation rate; you *were* presented with technical
>material, written by Dr. Gerhard Peters and others, which proves
>you're lying.

	Here is Mr.Keren again with his "much faster" time for the
gassing off of the HCN.
	Anyway, the comment given in the post above as to release rate
and the left over HCN is taken solely from the figures given in the
cited text by Mr.Keren, and yet here is Mr.Keren again. 


>What do you hope to accomplish, by reposting your lies over and
>over again?
  
	"Lies"?

>A few days ago, you wrote about the outgassing time of HCN from
>Zyklon:

># Maybe it is six hours. Maybe it could be days or even months.
>
>You simply have no idea what you're talking about. Look at the
>above. A range given from "six hours" to "months". 

	I also cited the footnote in the Polish report on existing
cyanide traces at Auschwitz today that mentions the HCN still existing
in Zyklon B samples at the Auschwitz Museum, 50 years.

	I also committed myself to what I thought the rate would be - 
1 1/2 to 2 hours. You left that part out. You even responded to that
statement. I'll wait until you deny it, then I'll cut and paste it,
and then look foreward to more of your babble.
 
>Moreover, if there was some HCN residue in the Zyklon when the
>victims died, it was rather easy to handle: the sonderkommando
>used gas masks in some of the gas chambers, while in others a
>very simple mechanism was used, which allowed to extract the
>Zyklon from the chambers after the victims died, thus solving
>the alleged "problem" of dealing with the HCN the Zyklon may
>have continued to release.

	Of course I didn't make any issue about it being too dangerous to
handle. I made a point of it being a poor choice for the agent of mass
extermination.
	What you put here is your evasive tangent. Your a liar, an
omitter, an evader and a cheat.

>Can you *really* not understand all this? After so many times?

	You left out comment on the challenge to the "meaning" instead of
'translation'. You avoided comment on everything. Your a liar and a
cheat. Your an evader, an omitter, dishonest, all in the course of
trouncing on anothers history. Your an anti-Teutonic. Your on the
ropes.
 

>-Danny Keren.
> Liar, omitter, cheater, anti-Teutonic.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:36 PDT 1996
Article: 55056 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.inet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!coopnews.coop.net!news.tde.com!news.paonline.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 19:39:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 90
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	This is the  - second - of Moran's commentary after a excursion into
>Nizkor files on Belzec, a camp said to be one where 600,000 people
>were exterminated, "most of them Jews".

	After the victims were gassed the bodies "were then taken to pits
- a few meters away - their bodies swelled up and then after few days
collapsed making room for others - they were covered with 10 cm of
sand - only a few heads and arms stuck out."

	So here we have a tale that the 600,000 bodies were taken to pits
only "a few meters away" from the gas chambers and covered over with
just 10 cm (4 inches) of sand.

	Unlike tales of Treblinka and Auschwitz, where it is said the
Germans buried hundreds of thousands of bodies at each camp and then
dug them up, cremated them and then reburied them, the Belzec tales
have not such elements. 

	One wonders why the Germans after realizing the better obliterate
the evidence at the two other camps didn't go back and do the same at
Belzec.

	We are also told about the bodies swelling and collapsing thus
making room for more. This swelling and collapsing standing out alone
among perhaps a few score more vague references to pits by Holocaust
eye-witness testimonies.   

	Some Holocaust accounts have it that bodies in pits were laid out
in layers; bodies, dirt, bodies, dirt, yet here we have them just
dumped in.

	Other accounts have it that the pits were covered over with a
meter or so of earth, but here they are covered over with a specified
composition, "sand" only 10 cm (4 inches) thick.

	We might get the idea the sand was brought in from someplace else
since the testimony doesn't say the pit was just filled in with
whatever was dug out.  
	Of course the defenders of the Holocaust story could merely say
that the soil from the excavation was the "sand", and that it was this
that was used. But then why would the Germans just use enough to cover
the bodies with 10 cm (4 inches), leaving them with the task of
disposing of the huge amounts that would have had to come out of the
pits which are said to have been 100 meters (300 feet) long, 20 meters
(60 feet) wide and 10 meters (30 feet) deep?	

	What happens if it turns out the general area is not one that has
sand as it's main regolithic composition?	

	Whenever an excavation is dug and refilled, the soil is less
dense in the beginning and then settles out and compacts under the
forces of gravity. If a mound isn't included over the filled in area a
depression will result on the surface. 

	We have to consider the likely hood that after the first rain,
the sand would have migrated down into the spaces between the bodies,
and with only 10 cm (4 inches) should have bared to view all the
bodies at the top. 

	Sand is more prone to migration than other types of earth
compositions, like clay, and thus as the bodies decomposed the
vacancies left would make a place for any composition to migrate to
and thus would cause the whole area over the pit to sink into a
depression, thus making location of the site for archeological
investigation a lot easier.

	Either way, the Belzec allegations indicate there should be an
archeological opportunity not available to most archeological
investigations in that the evidence is said to be at a fairly
precisely known location, is of an extensive nature and is right
proximate to the surface of the earth.
	
	Since the Holocaust story is so widely under attack as to its
credibility, one wonders why those so adamant on pressing the story
don't initiate an archeological expedition to uncover the evidence.

	Why don't the Holocaust dependant so adamant on pressing the
Holocaust story sponsor an expedition and show the world it is not all
bunk? 
	Could it be, they themselves know it is?
	The fact is, if they ever did make attempts at showing the world
actual forensic evidence and never come up with any, it would only
solidify the position of those who already know the main allegations
of the Holocaust story are lies and nothing more. 
	The only thing they have to sell the story is eye-witness
testimony. Eye-witness testimony is 99.99% of the Holocaust story's
evidence.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:37 PDT 1996
Article: 55076 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 19:56:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <32025d58.1662305@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:


>	I see you have just merely posted some more of your eye-witness
>testimony Mr.Keren, but none of it seems to have any relevance or
>answers to the points of the post. Why is that?

	Well?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug  3 07:04:37 PDT 1996
Article: 55077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 19:57:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <32025d93.1721019@news.pacificnet.net>
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	My experience with Nizkor files is that they can't be printed
>: directly as with all other websites, including 'revisionist' websites.
>: When putting them on floppy and transferring them over to a word
>: program (Word Perfect), it comes up "Unkown Format".
>
>Funny; I just pointed my rigii at the Nizkor site, opened the file
>menu, clicked on print, and a nifty little printout popped out.
>
>Of course, I have the Secret ZOG Decoder software...

	Secret? You say?
Is this anything like Hilary's secret "ZOG decoder ring" she says she
sends out?
 
Anderson, you have the mind of a child.

Anyone having "Word Perfect" and wanting to witness an "Unknown
Format" window, try transferring some Nizkor stuff to it.

>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:45 PDT 1996
Article: 55338 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 15:53:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

 		
>The material from the Peters-Rach paper, which discusses the
>out gassing time of the HCN (which our mentally retarded Nazis
>over-estimated by a factor of 16) is in the same directory:

	This passage from Mr.Keren, which I posted as an example of the
reference methods of Holocaust dependents, says the "mentally retarded
Nazis over-estimated by a factor of (16) ..."  Sixteen what? Sixteen
one hour periods or 16 two hour periods, which "one or two hours" was
the time given above. He's still talking "HCN" here and not Zyklon B,
so is he saying the Nazis gave the 16 hour or the 32 hour figure in
regard to just HCN, or was it Zyklon B? It's pretty certain the Nazis
would be talking about the release rate of Zyklon B and not just HCN
since the Zyklon B is the stated agent for mass estermination and not
HCN in some other form. When he says Nazi"s", does he mean all the
Nazis over-estimate the figures of 1 or 2 hours by 16, or could it be
possible that some of the Nazis might hold a figure that is, say, 15
times the 1 or 2 hours. Who knows? There might even be some Nazis that
might agree somewhat with the 1 or 2 hour figure. Anyway, it's pretty
hard to figure what those Nazis estimate by what Mr.Keren has given
here.

>peters-rasch-132.jpg (ref)
>peters-rasch-133.jpg (ref)
>peters-rasch-134.jpg (ref)
>peters-rasch-135.jpg (ref)
>peters-rasch-136.jpg (ref)
>peters-rasch-137.jpg (ref)
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>	It's kind of funny that Mr.Keren writing in English, refers
>people to a source that is written in German.
>                            ====================
>
>	
>	.   



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:46 PDT 1996
Article: 55341 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust final exam
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 15:14:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <3204be4e.1513238@news.pacificnet.net>
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Question:
	The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
is:

	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
money. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:47 PDT 1996
Article: 55346 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor/Wiesenthal
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 15:15:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3204be86.1569207@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	Simon Wiesenthal says the reason the numbers at Auschwitz were
inflated by 3 million is because of intentional shenanigans on the
part of the Russians and Poles.
	Nizkor says it was the "4 million variant", a mistake the
Russians made in figuring the crematoria rates.
	Wiesenthal says it was intentional.
	Nizkor says it was a mistake.
	Of course there are plenty of examples of wild rumors and even
more exaggerated numbers being thrown around before the end of the
war, and that is where it all started. The Russians going into the
camp and getting some eyewitness testimony that mirrored these rumors,
the end of a long and arduous war and the stage was set. Find the
first examples of rumors and go from there. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:48 PDT 1996
Article: 55354 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgery
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 14:55:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
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References:  <32002e88.3393156@news.pacificnet.net>   <32026AF1.3C16@rio.com>
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:



>Maybe not forgery, but if you believe anything Moran posts or 
>promotes, you need to take some lessons from real Moran specialists, 
>of which there are many at alt. rev. Moran lies, admits he lies, knows 
>very few facts but spouts baloney as factual, bluffs about one hundred 
>percent of the time, and generally is just a troller, with no good 
>bait.

>Chuck Ferree

>PS: I just don't like the guy as a person, and he's not to be trusted. 

>But you know that.

	This confirms it. Chuck loves Moran.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:49 PDT 1996
Article: 55355 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 15:03:26 GMT
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Robert@cartel.westfalen.de (Robert) wrote:

	

>Being stupid and being imoral often go together (good case Hitler)
>
>im German and im not stupid (then again i am not a National Socialist
>or any socialist for that matter..to go engage in that "denying the
>gasing thing" is a stupid act of it self (i heard Leuchters crap and
>if  he knows something about chemistry then i speak chinise;)!!
>
>anyway (to talk about "the German" when refering in to the Nazi-terror
>is at least ast stupid ast calling the horrible massmurder commited
>against the Jews "holocaust" in anciant greek mythology this term
>stood for the sacrificial life-cremation of animals to win the favor
>of the gods!!!
>Greetings from Germany
>Robert


Robert,
	When I was a kid, I had this large glossy paged book on WWII. The
text of the book was amply accompanied by photographic illustration
which also had considerable pages donated to the Holocaust segment.
	Now looking back, I realize that the pictures and words on this
Holocaust never erased my ablility to come to recognize the real
German capacity. This, inspite of a prolonged and energetic campaign
through all our major medias to have us think of the Germans as goose
stepping evil. 
	I wouldn't worry too much about the title here, 'STUPID GERMANS'.
All the accounts are based on allegations.
                                                  Tom Moran 
	





From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:50 PDT 1996
Article: 55359 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 17:51:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>
>
>Arguments about the release rate of Zyklon B have been much of an issue
>here, since conventionalists argue for a rapid release time, and cite
>Peters' book of 1933 where he says that *the greater part was released
>after 1/2 hour* while Germar Rudolf's Report has held that only about 37%
>would be released in 1/2 hour, as part of a geometric curve.

	I'm not sure at this time, but I think the Peters' report deals
with "prussic acid" exclusively, with nothing said about "Zyklon", and
more accurately "Zyklon B".

>What has been neglected to this point is the fact that, in the 1920's, the
>release of Zyklon was almost total after a few minutes, using an almost
>100% kieselguhr carrier, but that from that point onwards attempts were
>made to slow the release time (for safety and non-wastage purposes) by the
>addition of gypsum.  Diagreiss, a kieselguhr-gypsum composite, was the
>main form in the '30's, and had a much slower release time.

	The carrier would have lot to do with any release rate. Just for
example, if we should pour equal amounts of, say, water and say,
benzine out on a metal sheet, the benzine would evaporate faster. The
composition of the solid vehicle, pellets, would have something to do
with it also. The density of the solid would be the most determining
factor.

	The Peters' report mentions 1 to 2 hours, by Mr.Keren/Nizkor
relating, which was for prussic acid, no mention of Zyklon B, which
the related material Mr.Keren/Nizkor gave included the statement that
grain size was unknown. Who knows? Maybe it was liquid.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug  4 21:51:51 PDT 1996
Article: 55376 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgery
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 17:59:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:


>I think that it is true that Mr. Moran's intention was not to create
>a forgery nor to fool anyone into thinking his interpolations were 
>actual testimony.  His intention was to be sarcastic.

	The intention was to show what could have been, what should have
been inquired about. One of the common denominators of Holocaust
eye-witness testimony is the lack of detail and/or inquiry for
clarification and detail.

>Harry Katz
>
>To have no faithful friends is worse than death.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug  5 07:05:30 PDT 1996
Article: 55430 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:07:41 GMT
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	             The Roman Empire was.
How do we know?  From Rome to Western Europe, to Eastern Europe, to
Africa, the Mideast, all around the Mediterranean, thousands of miles
of roadways, hundreds of miles of aqueducts, hundreds of sculptures,
murals, scores of amphitheaters, arches, law, innovations and a
extensive written record. Tangibles.

                  The Holocaust was.
How do we know? Eye-witness testimony, special interpretation of
documents. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug  5 07:05:31 PDT 1996
Article: 55432 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:35:10 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

 "... ,and you have yourself a neat little car."

	I'd bet if the general public knew about the special properties
of Holocaust gas, they might start to have - reservations.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug  5 07:05:32 PDT 1996
Article: 55433 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Chuck plugs for Moran
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:35:44 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:


>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Robert, if you believe anything this man says, be careful. Moran is a 
>liar-denier, and has never been able to backup or prove any of his 
>stupid claims. 

>He is very sneaky, and I hope you will not trust him.

>Best,

>Chuck

	Robert,
 Chuck announces Moran makes "stupid claims", is a "liar" and is "very
sneaky". Don't believe the parts about "liar" and "stupid claims".

                                                      Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug  5 07:28:08 PDT 1996
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <32002d5b.3092661@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <32002d5b.3092661@news.pacificnet.net>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug  5 07:28:09 PDT 1996
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3204b972.269956@news.pacificnet.net>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug  5 15:31:17 PDT 1996
Article: 55473 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor's got the patent - goofy style
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:40:57 GMT
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		Nizkor doesn't say in English, but I take it, it's a patent
for Topfs acquisition of the Degesch products - including Zyklon B.	

	It's under ftp > camps > auschwitz > pat.11, pat. 12, pat.13 etc.
- or something like that.

	Its in German. Its a scan. It takes that long to bring up. It
comes on the screen all cocked eyed - cattywompus like.

	The lettering is half tone gray and at about 24 points so you
have to scroll sideways to see it all.

	Did the lettering come that large? Who knows. How come they
didn't reduce it, photostat it on extra dark? Who knows. Maybe it came
to them in the normal size and tone but they enlarged it with the
settings set to light.

	I did catch that it was dated on the front page, "i950", "1951"
and "1952".

	I don't know if it covers the Zyklon B - THE Zyklon B.

	Evidently Nizkor doesn't want anyone to have easy access to the
information, other wise they would have posted it in a reasonable
manner, in English.

	If it did have something awesome to confirm the Holocaust story
we could bet they would have put it out here with great fanfare. If it
does have anything for the Holocaust story how come all the promises
and ensuing evasions by those on alt.revisionism who have alluded to
it?  

	Yup - goofy.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:09 PDT 1996
Article: 55476 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:34:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>     What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination 
>by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the 
>Russians.  It is also interesting that at no time did the 
>Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing 
>much less mass gassing.  It is even more interesting that at no 
>time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the 
>number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing.  

	Giwer, don't you think it would have been easier to just say, 'No
one, ever, produced any kind of forensic evidence to verify the
Holocaust story'.  
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:10 PDT 1996
Article: 55477 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor/"Images" and Rip Van Winkle
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:41:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Go to Nizkor. Continue on to "FTP Files". Click up "camps". See
"auschwitz". Click it. Notice on the right side the numerical byte
contents, "7,965 k"

	Click "auschwitz".

	Notice long list of various topics.

	Click "cyanide".

	Notice "Zyklon" and click it.

	See "images" and notice right hand column, "2,708 k"

	Go back a step to "auschwitz".

     Notice "images", see right hand column, "3,505 k"

	So what are these "images"? They are scanned in material that
could include photos and or pages from books with most of it scanned
non-OCR text.

	What does this mean to those accessing Nizkor files? First it
means you have to wait about five times longer to retrieve something
than if it was straight forward text. It also means you can't work it,
like "search" or something.

	Nizkor boasts 7,965 kilobytes for Auschwitz. The "images"
accounts for 6,313 kilobytes. The one figure subtracted from the other
figure leaves us with 1,652 kilobytes that are more or less straight
forward.

	Take into consideration the alt.revisionism headers included with
some of their info, the blank spaces, the Nizkor signatures and
headings and we may be left with say 1,000 kilobytes of actual
information in a textual format.

	After you get done with that, take advantage of Nizkor's links to
Greg Raven or Ernst Zuendel and experience the ease and the directness
of it all in comparison to Nizkor.  	   


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:10 PDT 1996
Article: 55478 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:42:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Of course as far as the general person on the street knows about
the Holocasut story, the "gas" factor is the number one, if not the
only thing they know about the Holocaust story.

	Yet how many would know that this gas can be picked up, scattered
around, poured and could rattle in cans?

	You could even have individual pieces of the gas. They could have
any shape, the Holocaust gas being sort of disc shaped.

	You could take about ten of these gases and drill holes right
through the center, take about 6 of them and wire them together into a
cylinder, then take two more and string them on a wire about the
cylinder width apart, then do the other 2 the same way, put the two
pairs of gases on a table facing each other longwise, take the pieces
of gas wired into a cylinder and place one end on the wire seperating
two of the gases and the other end on the wire between the other two,
and you have yourself a neat little car.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:11 PDT 1996
Article: 55479 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:47:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	This thing was reposted because the first time it was posted on
Aug. 3, but my rig was set for the 4th. Generally news services will
not process something posted from the future.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:11 PDT 1996
Article: 55480 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/"Images" and Rip Van Winkle
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:48:01 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	This thing was reposted because the first time it was posted on
Aug. 3, but my rig was set for the 4th. Generally news services will
not process something posted from the future.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:12 PDT 1996
Article: 55481 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's got the patent - goofy style
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:48:26 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	This thing was reposted because the first time it was posted on
Aug. 3, but my rig was set for the 4th. Generally news services will
not process something posted from the future.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:13 PDT 1996
Article: 55482 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 14:03:39 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>				
>	             The Roman Empire was.
>How do we know?  From Rome to Western Europe, to Eastern Europe, to
>Africa, the Mideast, all around the Mediterranean, thousands of miles
>of roadways, hundreds of miles of aqueducts, hundreds of sculptures,
>murals, scores of amphitheaters, arches, law, innovations and a
>extensive written record. Tangibles.
>
>                  The Holocaust was.
>How do we know? Eye-witness testimony, special interpretation of
>documents. 

	As to the "... thousands of miles ... hundreds of miles ... and
scores ...", these are what still exist today, 2000 years later. 

	When it comes to historical accounting, it is obvious that the
procedures for the Holocaust stands out like a monkey among men. 	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:13 PDT 1996
Article: 55483 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 14:53:34 GMT
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s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan Schneider) wrote:

>In article <3204dfdc.490260@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom 
>moran) wrote:
>>
>>        The carrier would have lot to do with any release rate. Just for
>>example, if we should pour equal amounts of, say, water and say,
>>benzine out on a metal sheet, the benzine would evaporate faster. The
>>composition of the solid vehicle, pellets, would have something to do
>>with it also. The density of the solid would be the most determining
>>factor.
>
>Actually, the density of the solid has no influence whatsoever on release 
>times.

	Density would have a lot to do with it, since any avenues for
migration of saturant into the atmosphere would be restricted more in
a dense compacted carrier than a loosely packed carrier. 

> To use your example: The faster evaporation of the benzine when 
>poured on a metal sheet is due to the high thermal conductivity of metals. 

	Okay, we can just use some other surface, like glass.	


>And the evaporation of the water will be increased on a metal sheet as 
>well. The benzine will evaporate faster, because its heat of evaporation 
>is very much lower than that of water.

	Regardless of what you put here, my initial claim stands. The
vehicle in which any HCN would be suspended would determine its
ability to gas off.

> Slowing down evaporation happens if 
>the carrier has a high affinity towards the liauid adsorbed. If you pour 
>benzine or water or whatever you like on activated carbon, the evaporation 
>of the liquid will slow down dramatically due to physical bondage of the 
>liquid to the carrier.

	Thanks for filling in something I left out.


>>        The Peters' report mentions 1 to 2 hours, by Mr.Keren/Nizkor
>>relating, which was for prussic acid, no mention of Zyklon B, which
>>the related material Mr.Keren/Nizkor gave included the statement that
>>grain size was unknown. Who knows? Maybe it was liquid.
>
>You shouldn't even try to think you found any flaws in other people's 
>values, when the only thing your posting reveals is lack of physical and 
>chemical knowledge.

	I take this to mean you don't have any other comment on the
report discussing prussic acid, in some unidentified form, and not
Zyklon B, the actual identified product. If you berate "lack of
physical and chemical knowledge" then you should stick to that
announcement yourself with the immediate above.
>-- 
>Sie haben sich auf der Grundlage harter Fakten eine feste Meinung
> gebildet? Posten Sie sie doch einfach mal nach de.talk.bizarre.
>             Die kriegen dort Beides wieder weich.
>                  *s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de*
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:14 PDT 1996
Article: 55484 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz, a secret?(2) repost
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 14:31:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>   Several, a lot of contradictions exist in Vrba's 'memories',
>   and Alexander Baron talk about it in the book he wrote. Vrba
>   affirmations were so contradictory that he was obligated to admit
>   that he lied at the Zundel trial. Just those contradictions could take
>   few hundreds lines.
>    Let say just that when I read Vrba's book, I saw that his escape
>   had a specific purpose: give a warn to the whole world about the fate
>   of the jews in Auschwitz, 'breaking the secret' in other words. One
>   have just to read the previous message to realize that it is ridicoulous.


>   There was hundreds of escapes and liberations before him

	In one Holocaust book it is reported that there were 500 escapes
a year from Auschwitz.


>   Despite the inconsistences in his testimony, Vrba's credibility is
>   essantial. The defenders of the legend can conceed that an obscur
>   eye witness could have lie, but Vrba is a kind of detonnator, a domino:
>   since he talk about his entertainment with F. Muller at the camp, since
>   the key eyewitness Sonderkommando F. Muller said also that he spoke
>   with Vrba several times in Auschwitz, if one of the testimony is false,
>   the other collapse. If Vrba testimony is false, then one would have
>   to explain why the real authors of the WRB report never challendge
>   Vrba's story.  And then we would conclude that the WRB report wasn't
>   writen by  an ex-inmate but by higher rank propagandist who had a large
>   amount of datas available: this is where the story began.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:15 PDT 1996
Article: 55485 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 14:31:57 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	"... ,and you have yourself a neat little car."

	I'd bet if the general public knew about the special properties
of Holocaust gas, they might start to have - reservations.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:15 PDT 1996
Article: 55488 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/"Images" and Rip Van Winkle
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 15:05:14 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>
>	Nizkor boasts 7,965 kilobytes for Auschwitz. The "images"
>accounts for 6,313 kilobytes. The one figure subtracted from the other
>figure leaves us with 1,652 kilobytes that are more or less straight
>forward.

	Actually there is no 'straight forward' nature to Nizkor stuff.
Even retrieving their material that is not "images" and comes up
"unknown format" when entered into Word Perfect, it will take a lot
longer than when retrieving text from other web sites.

	Did I say it takes "5 times longer" to retrieve Nizkor's "images"
text than the norm? Correction, make that ten times longer.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug  6 08:46:16 PDT 1996
Article: 55491 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 15:16:00 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>
>>In article <320258d3.504980@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>>moran) wrote:
>>
>>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>> 
>>> >
>>> >       This is the  - second - of Moran's commentary after a excursion into
>>> >Nizkor files on Belzec, a camp said to be one where 600,000 people
>>> >were exterminated, "most of them Jews".
>>
>>So here, little man, you not only reply to your own posting but you
>>continue to refer to yourself in the third person. Why ?
>>
>>[attempted Holocaust denial deleted - refer to original article]
>
>Aren't you the person I, meaning Moran, ask;
>
>"You seem like a good candidate to explain how the Germans got the
>shoes up on the pile that was six stories high. Go for it."

	Well?



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:22 PDT 1996
Article: 55535 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 00:30:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <32069212.187843@news.pacificnet.net>
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angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <32057386.18750351#news.pacificnet.net>
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) blathers
>>                                
>>                     The Roman Empire was.
>>How do we know?  From Rome to Western Europe, to Eastern Europe, to
>>Africa, the Mideast, all around the Mediterranean, thousands of miles
>>of roadways, hundreds of miles of aqueducts, hundreds of sculptures,
>>murals, scores of amphitheaters, arches, law, innovations and a
>>extensive written record. Tangibles.
>
>According to Moranic criteria, the Sassanian Empire of Iran wasn't.
>
>How do we know ? From Tigris to the Indus, from the Syr Darya to the 
>Gulf, no roads remain, no aqueducts are to be seen which the Sassanians 
>might have built.

	We also have substantial historical record on numerous other
civilizations and events that don't have aqueducts or roads, yet ... 

> A handful of monumental remains exist 

have a handful or even two hand fulls of monumental remains to held us
with the tangibles.

>- and those 
>could equally well be Arsacid or even older. No written Sassanian laws
>remain, no Sassanian historians are known, such histories as exist are 
>written by Romans who were thousands of miles away or by Muslim scholars
>hundreds of years after the event. The version of history which the 
>Roman historians would have us believe was accepted by the Sassanians is
>so at odds with that which all the evidence supports as to be obviously 
>concocted. 

	We can briefly consider your last statement here to show that
there is at least enough evidence to weigh. 


>By Moranic methods :- no tangibles, much contradiction, no Sassanians.

	Whatever they have on the Sassanians would be all they have.
Whatever is written or was written is subject to critique. If whatever
the Romans or the Muslims wrote is challenged, so be it. Nevertheless,
if you should show up at some historical society and tried to make a
case for the thorough and absolute non-existance of Sassanians you
would be presented with at least that "hand full" of tangibles. You
could then show, if you could, proof that everything that was written
about the Sassanians by the Romans and Muslims was false, yet we would
still be faced with, at least, the likely reality that something
Sassanian was.

	Having read considerable material on the history of the area I
recall little or nothing about the Sassanians, which shows to myself
you have selected a certain obscure example, but which, by your own
words does have, at least, a "hand full" of tangibles.

	Perhaps you should have used tales of Atlantis or UFOs to show
that Holocaust intangibles are sufficient.



	

	
	
>
>Angus M. McLellan



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:22 PDT 1996
Article: 55620 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:40:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	But holohugging attorneys swear the latter is as good as and no
>different than the former.  They all swear on a stack of Torahs that
>testimony is equal to physical evidence.  Not only equal, the same as.

Holocaust eyewitness testimony is better than physical evidence. It
has to be. There is nothing else. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:23 PDT 1996
Article: 55622 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:28:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) wrote:

>In article <32057386.18750351#news.pacificnet.net>
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) blathers
>>                                
>>                     The Roman Empire was.
>>How do we know?  From Rome to Western Europe, to Eastern Europe, to
>>Africa, the Mideast, all around the Mediterranean, thousands of miles
>>of roadways, hundreds of miles of aqueducts, hundreds of sculptures,
>>murals, scores of amphitheaters, arches, law, innovations and a
>>extensive written record. Tangibles.
>
>According to Moranic criteria, the Sassanian Empire of Iran wasn't.
>
>How do we know ? From Tigris to the Indus, from the Syr Darya to the 
>Gulf, no roads remain, no aqueducts are to be seen which the Sassanians 
>might have built.

	We also have substantial historical record on numerous other
civilizations and events that don't have aqueducts or roads, yet ... 

> A handful of monumental remains exist 

have a handful or even two hand fulls of monumental remains to held us
with the tangibles.

>- and those 
>could equally well be Arsacid or even older. No written Sassanian laws
>remain, no Sassanian historians are known, such histories as exist are 
>written by Romans who were thousands of miles away or by Muslim scholars
>hundreds of years after the event. The version of history which the 
>Roman historians would have us believe was accepted by the Sassanians is
>so at odds with that which all the evidence supports as to be obviously 
>concocted. 

	We can briefly consider your last statement here to show that
there is at least enough evidence to weigh. 


>By Moranic methods :- no tangibles, much contradiction, no Sassanians.
>Angus M. McLellan

	Whatever they have on the Sassanians would be all they have.
Whatever is written or was written is subject to critique. If whatever
the Romans or the Muslims wrote is challenged, so be it. Nevertheless,
if you should show up at some historical society and tried to make a
case for the thorough and absolute non-existance of Sassanians you
would be presented with at least that "hand full" of tangibles. You
could then show, if you could, proof that everything that was written
about the Sassanians by the Romans and Muslims was false, yet we would
still be faced with, at least, the likely reality that something
Sassanian was.

	Having read considerable material on the history of the area I
recall little or nothing about the Sassanians, which shows to myself
you have selected a certain obscure example, but which, by your own
words does have, at least, a "hand full" of tangibles.

	Perhaps you should have used tales of Atlantis or UFOs to show
that Holocaust intangibles are sufficient.
		




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:24 PDT 1996
Article: 55623 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz, a secret?(1) repost
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:30:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:


	The 'Holocaust was a secret' topic is one of the main
denominators of the story. It would have to be. It wouldn't do if the
story claimed it was all wide open, no one cared who knew, there were
no attempts at covering up, since this would require proof in it's
self. The whole idea of anyone even suggesting the Germans would have
committed the Holocaust without any concern for secrecy would be
absurd.
    So this leaves the only option, for the story; the whole thing was
modeled to be top secret.

	As it turns out, going by Holocaust evidence, sometimes it was a
secret, and sometimes it wasn't. 

	It is this kind of thing that trips the story up. There are
accounts that show that it is all to have been a secret and then there
are accounts that suggest it couldn't have been a secret and no one
could think it was a secret, according to the story's testimonial
circumstances.
                 -------------------------

	Just a few of the examples might be;

Secret
	Not secret

All the accounts that say the vital orders for the extermination were
given verbally. 
	Thirty copies of Wannasee Conference. Himmlers speeches. 

All the people at Auschwitz were taken to the chambers at night.
	Four crematorium flaming and smoking all day and night. Burning
pyres in the field all day and all night. Trains rattling in with the
murmur of thousands, every night, never to show up in the camp.

The sondercommando teams were killed every two weeks, to keep them
>from  talking.
	The sondercommandos at times would talk through a fence to the
women in the womans camp. Little kids worked with the sondercommandos
in the death buildings and returned to the barracks when not working.

Extermination camps were built out in remote areas, Treblinka.
	Auschwitz was right in the proximate to three Polish towns. One
thousand civilians came in touch with the camp inmates on a daily
basis.
             ----------------------------------
	It shows how Holocaust evidence trips itself up. It could be that
every piece of Holocaust evidence, when compared to another, could be
shown to have some conflicting repercussions.

	Was the Holocaust all planned to be kept it secret? It all
depends.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:25 PDT 1996
Article: 55625 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Chuck plugs for Moran
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 15:04:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >Chuck Ferree wrote:
>> 
>> >Robert, if you believe anything this man says, be careful. Moran is a 
>> >liar-denier, and has never been able to backup or prove any of his 
>> >stupid claims. 
>> 
>> >He is very sneaky, and I hope you will not trust him.
>> 
>> >Best,
>> 
>> >Chuck
>> 
>> 	Robert,
>>  Chuck announces Moran makes "stupid claims", is a "liar" and is "very
>> sneaky". Don't believe the parts about "liar" and "stupid claims".
>
>Using Moran's Rules of Logic (any similarities to actual logic purely
>coincidental), I guess this means that Moran "endorses" everything Mr.
>Ferree wrote, particularly the bits about not being able to support his
>claims and about Moran being sneaky.
>
>I'd have to dispute that "sneaky" bit, though--Moran's about as obvious as
>the proverbial turd in a puchbowl.

	I see you disagree with Chuck's compliment that I'm "sneaky",
even "very sneaky". 

	What you don't understand is, Chuck loves Moran.

	By using the word "sneaky", Chuck means, 'straight forward'.

The only reason Chuck posted the part about, "Moran is a liar-denier,
and has never been able to backup or prove any of his stupid claims",
without going through with any confirming followup, was just to show
an example of how the Holocaust dependant have to respond to 'straight
forward' material. 
 

	

	

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"A thoroughly fun, mindless little vacation, _Independence Day_
>is sort of like an enema: eventful, and then you feel empty"
>			-capsule review, _The Tucson Weekly_
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:25 PDT 1996
Article: 55626 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 15:26:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>Apples and oranges.  You're comparing an entire culture and society, a 
>thousand years of building, arts and culture, spread over an entire 
>continent against 5 years of activities confined largely to one country 
>(Poland).

	We're talking about evidence 2000 years old. The Holocaust was
just fifty one years ago. Fifty one years ago would have been the time
to amass the physical evidence for the alleged Holocaust. This is when
they had the big chance to show the physical evidence. The lack of
physical evidence today is either the failure of those then to
document it or because there wasn't anything to document.
	Today being just fifty years later, and not 2000 years later,
should still afford the opportunity to show something, but yea, no.
They are not even trying.
	The reason they are not trying is because they know it's not
there. They know that if they do attempt an investigation for
producing some physical-forensic evidence and they come up with
nothing it would tend more to show the subject of the probe didn't
happen.   
	Maybe you can explain why there are no real attempts at showing
the world forensic evidence. There are many sites mentioned in
Holocaust accounts, involving huge numbers of bodies, said to be
buried at fairly exactly know locations, and yet ...

	The Holocaust is the rotten apple in the struggle for historical
accuracy.

>Try comparing oranges and oranges.  E.g., using your ludicrous 
>criteria, prove the occurrence of the Plague Epidemic of the 15th 
>century.

>Oh, and PLEASE try to do so in complete sentences.


>Gary
>
>
>Sent with an evaluation copy of Cindy's Newsmailer v1.1.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:26 PDT 1996
Article: 55632 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "THE ZIONIST PAGE"
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:27:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <32075637.610106@news.pacificnet.net>
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	           Webcrawler > The Zionist Page

  A Star of David on one side, and an out line of Israel on the other.

	"Welcome to the Zionist page.
	While this site is still under construction, we invite you to
explore other sites that may be of interest.
	Leading the list is the Simon Wiesenthal Center ..."
	
					 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:27 PDT 1996
Article: 55633 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:27:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	Response to the article posted by Angus McLellan under an RE:


	According to Moranic criteria, the Sassanian Empire of Iran
wasn't. How do we know ? From Tigris to the Indus, from the Syr Darya
to the Gulf, no roads remain, no aqueducts are to be seen which the
Sassanians might have built. A handful of monumental remains exist -
and those could equally well be Arsacid or even older. No written
Sassanian laws remain, no Sassanian historians are known, such
histories as exist are written by Romans who were thousands of miles
away or by Muslim scholars hundreds of years after the event. The
version of history which the Roman historians would have us believe
was accepted by the Sassanians is so at odds with that which all the
evidence supports as to be obviously concocted. 

By Moranic methods :- no tangibles, much contradiction, no Sassanians.


Angus M. McLellan


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:27 PDT 1996
Article: 55635 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:37:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <32075863.1166222@news.pacificnet.net>
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>>         Of course as far as the general person on the street knows about
>> the Holocasut story, the "gas" factor is the number one, if not the
>> only thing they know about the Holocaust story.
>> 
>>         Yet how many would know that this gas can be picked up, scattered
>> around, poured and could rattle in cans?
>
>Jeez, you're right that's silly.  Why, that's just as perposterous as
>pulling up to a roadside establishment, ordering the person working
>there to fill a container you have on your vehicle with a liquid and
>then having the audacity to call the liquid "gas".
>
>Get a clue, you twit.

	Your "gas" being a shortened version of 'gasoline'.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:28 PDT 1996
Article: 55636 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:48:47 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <3204be4e.1513238@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>Question:
>>	The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>>is:
>> 
>>	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?
>> 
>>	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>>money. 
>
>    Didn't you offer this "exam" just a week or two ago, zeyde?  What, are
>    you running out of new material?

	I assume with the rapid expansion of revisionism there are new
students coming into the class room each day, so my posting this once
a week isn't so bad. 

	You somehow express that "new material" is the only thing worth
while and that 'old material', since it has gone by, is obsolete. 
	
	You keep thinking I post stuff out here for you. You are
insignificant. 

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:29 PDT 1996
Article: 55637 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:51:59 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:


>And I can still make you look like an idiot. But then, everybody can do
>that, I have to admit.

	Seems everytime you try it, it's like throwing a boomerang.
 
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:30 PDT 1996
Article: 55779 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: +A revisionist FAQ (2) (Repost)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 14:47:55 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:


>This is the usual fare, but perhaps the next section deserves to be commented.

>:> 5.0 The stupidity of the method
>:>
>:>
>:>   The best way to kill people is not to transport them over 1,000 kilometres
>:>with all the cost involves and to put them in those 'gas chambers' but to shoot
>:>them on site. The reason for which the gas chamber story was used in connection
>:>with Zyklon B can be found in one of Hilberg's books: he shows proof over many
>:>pages (mainly Zyklon B invoices) that Zyklon B was produced in Germany, and
>:>carried to Auschwitz. No one contests that Zyklon B was used at Auschwitz to
>:>eliminate lice which were bringing typhus into the camp, even on the anti-Revi-
>:>sionist side: there's too much proof of that. It was essential at Nuremberg to
>:>maximise the proofs and minimise the risk with the use of such documents for
>:>which a dual interpretation is necessary: Zyklon B was use to disinfect clothes
>:>and fight typhus epidemics which were killing Jewish manpower, but Zyklon B was
>:>also used to liquidate them.
>
>This analysis ignores some important considerations.  First, gassing *was* an
>efficient way to kill large numbers of people.  The victims could be killed
>much more quickly, and at a more centralized location, than by shooting.

	You could shoot people anywhere.

>In
>addition, the strain on the killers was alleviated as compared to shooting, an
>important consideration in the mind of Himmler.  It was mainly for these
>reasons that the method was switched from shooting to gassing.  Simple
>statistics showed that shooting was not killing enough Jews quickly enough,

	40,000 are said to have been shot in a single night in the east.
Shot and buried.

>that it was hard on the shooters 

	But going by Goldhagen's book " ...Willing Executioners" ...

>and that it was too easy for people to find out about it.

	So they used Auschwitz, right in among three Polish towns, with
1,000 civilians a day coming in contact with camp population, raging
open fires and spewing chimnies, day and night - etc.  

> The combination of these factors lead the SS leaders to
>recommend a change in methodology.
>
>[rest deleted]
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 13:28:30 PDT 1996
Article: 55783 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 15:24:41 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Believe me. You are doomed for bad things, Moran. People won't do it 
>to you, but someone up there will. Take my word.\Punk.

>Chuck

	Now this is getting serious. Chuck is mustering up divine
vengence. "Take my word" Chuck says.
	Chuck could you present some expanded commentary on that? I can't
just take your word for it. If I went off on criteria like that I
would be believing in the Holocaust story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 14:53:12 PDT 1996
Article: 55795 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 14:44:32 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

	Below I have isolated pertinent comments on the release rate from
Ehrich's article.

>  Unfortunately,
>the source says nothing about the type of carrier material used, or about
>the accumulation of layers of the product during application.  But it does
>say that about 80% to 90% of the prussic acid would be outgassed in about
>nine hours, at room temperature of about 26 degrees Centigrade.  

	80 to 90 percent of the gas emitted in about 9 hours.

>temperature in excess of 20 degress Centigrade, and an even distribution
>of the product, 80% to 90% of the gas would be evaporated after two hours
>(see Graph 13).

	80 to 90 percent after two hours.

>But given the conditions listed above, one can calculate that 50% of the
>prussic acid will be outgassed after about 40 to 45 minutes. (120/3 min.) 
>G. Peters claimed at the beginning of the 1930’s that about 50% of the
>prussic acid would be released after half an hour, 

	50 percent in 40 to 45 minutes.

>For further determinations it should be kept in
>mind that during the first five, or apparently as much as ten, minutes
>after applying the product, a maximum of 10% of the prussic acid will have
>been lost from the carrier material at temperatures greater than 20
>degrees Centrigrade. 

	A maximum of 10 percent in 5 to 10 minutest.
  	                    -------------------

	Quick list;
	
	80 to 90 percent of the gas emitted in about 9 hours.

	80 to 90 percent after two hours.

	50 percent in 40 to 45 minutes.

	A maximum of 10 percent in 5 to 10 minutes.


	
	The Holocaust story accounts give various testimonies about how
long it took to gas people in the chambers. The times can range from 5
to 15 minutes. We will use the middle of the road, 10 minutes.

	Applying the 10 minute rate to any of the above figures we end up
with a maximum of 12.5 percent of the product being used for the
extermination process, the other 87.5 percent left over as not
necessary, wasted, left over to complicate the unloading process, and
necessitating the recovery and disposal.

	Since the gas stories were so prevalent before the liberation of
the camps and eventually became the center of the Holocaust story from
that day on, it would be absolutely necessary to identify the agent of
mass extermination and the only thing they could point to was the
Zyklon B that just happened to be laying around for fumigation
purposes. If they had found moth balls, we would be arguing that case
right now. 
	As it is, going by Holocaust accounts, this Zyklon B story
creates a problem for the credibility of the story.  
	Holocaust testimonial accounts have up to 2,000,000 people being
killed at Treblinka, 600,000 at another camp, 600,000 at yet another,
500,000 over there and 300,000 over here which leaves us with the
question of why the Germans would have turned to Zyklon B at
Auschwitz.
	As the Holocaust story has it, by way of the testimony of Rudolph
Ho'ss, commandant of Auschwitz, he had returned to the camp after a
trip away, to find out that the Asst.Commandant had tried out some
Zyklon B on some Soviet prisoners and the two of them figured they
could use it on Jews. The Ho'ss testimony along with the absence of
any other evidence, puts the use of Zyklon B right into the hands of
one, then two men, totally on their own initiative, with no one else
involved, including the high command. 
	The Zyklon B/carbon monoxide connection. Millions exterminated
with carbon monoxide, a wide spread and proven method, and yet
suddenly at Auschwitz, it's Zyklon B.
		

	 	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 14:53:14 PDT 1996
Article: 55796 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 14:46:58 GMT
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <320258d3.504980@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>>>>moran) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> >
>>>>> >       This is the  - second - of Moran's commentary after a excursion into
>>>>> >Nizkor files on Belzec, a camp said to be one where 600,000 people
>>>>> >were exterminated, "most of them Jews".
>>>>
>>>>So here, little man, you not only reply to your own posting but you
>>>>continue to refer to yourself in the third person. Why ?
>>>>
>>>>[attempted Holocaust denial deleted - refer to original article]
>>>
>>>Aren't you the person I, meaning Moran, ask;
>>>
>>>"You seem like a good candidate to explain how the Germans got the
>>>shoes up on the pile that was six stories high. Go for it."
>>
>>	Well?
>>
>
>No it wasn't a well. It was a pile of shoes *you* being asked to
>explain. So begin explaining.

	*Me*? When you say "*you*", do you mean I should give an answer
to how the Germans got the shoes piled to 6 stories high? You have to
remember, I'm revisionistic, I leave it up to *you* and the other
Holocaust dependants to give the goofy explainations. 

	Seeing how there doesn't seem to be any out there who would like
to take a shot, maybe I better offer what some theoretical Holocaust
testimony has to say. As the story could go, after the Germans got the
pile up to twenty feet and out of range of throwing distance, they
built a huge tower out of masonry, with windows at ten foot intervals,
they ran the shoes up the stairs and tossed them out the window onto
the pile. As the pile got higher and higher, they would have to go to
the next upper window. After this limit was used up, the Germans just
buried the people with their shoes on.

	You wouldn't have any information on testimony that would tell us
what happened to the shoes, would you? We should take note that as the
6 story high pile was accumulating it must have been exposed to the
weather which might put a cinck in any testimony that would say they
were wisk away to be given to the willing German people.

	  


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:17 PDT 1996
Article: 55802 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:08:33 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>> >> The fires are said to have been raging all day, day after day,
>> >> week after week onto months. 
 
>> >The furnaces were to said have been operated continuously _periodically_.
>> >Specifically, during certain special Aktions, most notably Aktion Ho"ss,
>> >in which approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz
>> >between  May 15 to July 9, 1944. (cf. _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.627; _Death
>> >Dealer_, p.45.) Of these 480,000 Hungarian Jews, about 394,000 (90%) were
>> >murdered in the gas chambers on or shortly after their arrival at
>> >Auschwitz II-Birkenau. 
 
>> "May 15 to July 9", '1900 to 1996', or from any 'May 1 to May 3',
>> the heat would have been tremendous in the flues.

>Hmmm. Must be glosssolalia. 

>> >That the Kremas did not typically operate continuously "all day, day after
>> >day, week after week onto months" can easily be seen by fact that there
>> >were gaps in the arrival of transports to Auschwitz (cf. _Auschwitz
>> >Chronicle_) and that some of the Kremas were not on-line for significant
>> >periods of time (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.233-237). Krema IV was disabled shortly
>> >after it became operational in 1943 and was not subsequently used
>> >thereafter (cf. Ibid. p.234). Krema V, for example, was idled through much
>> >of (late) 1943 and only came on line in May of 1944 for Aktion Ho"ss (cf.
>> >Ibid. p.238).  Krema I was retired in early 1943 and subsequently
>> >converted into a bomb shelter (cf. Ibid. p.159).
 
>> Regardless, considerable periods of time went on with the
>> furnaces burning continuously.

>Which is quite different than your claim of "all day, day after day, week
>after week onto months."

	As the typical Holocaust practices go, we have the story tellers
saying when convenient that the Cremas were operating continuously and
when convenient not so continuously. 

	I'm notr the one claiming "all day and all night". The Holocaust
story claims it. I just cite the claims.

	The fact is, the story has the Cremas running at full blast for
days, weeks and months.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:18 PDT 1996
Article: 55804 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:41:13 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>I take it you mean by "aechological [sic] evidence" the flues? It is
>rather self-evident, considering that the construction plans clearly
>indicated they were underground, and that eywtiness testimony indicated
>that they were underground, that they were indeed underground. 

	I challenged, where is the "archeological evidence", and
VanAlstine responds with "construction plans" and "eyewitness
testimony".

>But if you claim that they were _not_ underground just exactly where _do_
>you claim they were? Please be specific in citing your sources for such an
>assumption.

	
	Where exactly can you point to where you get the notion I make an
"assumption" they weren't underground?
	I didn't "claim" anything about them being above ground or below
ground. I cited Holocaust claims. We're talking Holocaust claims now.

	But while we're here, I say there were no underground flue
systems. I say any exhausting system for the buildings oven chamber
was the chimney draft at the one and only oven, which would be located
in the ell, right at the proximate of the chimney itself.
	I also say there is no underground flue system, which should be
there, to this day. I say if the Holocaust dependents want to prove
their stuff they should demand, sponsor an archeological investigation
to show the world their not pressing lies.
	This is an opportunity not afforded to most archeological probes
in that they have exact locations for which to focus on.

	You have your "plans" and "eyewitness testimony", but can you say
why there has been no physical investigation into what should still be
there? Go for it VanAlstine. 	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:18 PDT 1996
Article: 55812 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 14:45:19 GMT
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>
>>Question:
>>	The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>>is:
>>
>>	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?
>>
>>	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>>money. 
>
>Didn't you already post this unsubstantiated diatribe before, Mr.
>Moran?

	An "unsubstantiated" question? Interesting.  

I'm going to have to give this some thought. Especially as to whether
the proposal is;

a. pathetic

b. funny

c. both; pathetic and funny



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:19 PDT 1996
Article: 55813 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Chuck plugs for Moran
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 14:47:30 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> >On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> >
>> >> Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>OOOOOKAY, so the turd isn't a sneaky turd, but a turd never the less. 
>If I loved the SOB, I'd ask him to buy me a beer. But I don't drink 
>beer with turds.
>
>Chuck

	More lovey dovey talk from Chuck? But this can't last. Moran has
his limits. Here we have Chuck saying that if he loved someone, he'd
ask the one he loved to buy him a beer.
	I can see it now, Chuck out on a date, when he was younger of
course, sitting in the car with this sweet young thing, his arm around
her and saying, 'I love you, will you buy me a beer'. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:20 PDT 1996
Article: 55814 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 15:01:00 GMT
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Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> Keith Morrison  wrote:
>> >Jeez, you're right that's silly.  Why, that's just as perposterous as
>> >pulling up to a roadside establishment, ordering the person working
>> >there to fill a container you have on your vehicle with a liquid and
>> >then having the audacity to call the liquid "gas".
>> >
>> >Get a clue, you twit.
>> 
>>         Your "gas" being a shortened version of 'gasoline'.
>> 
>
>And your "gas" being a solid carrier and not the contents.

	Nevertheless, referrences to this gas, THE gas, in our general
medias has never once mentioned what exactly it was. It is my
experience that when you tell someone what the gas was, you can see
this little 'looking sideways' expression come across their faces.

>Get a life, dweeb!



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:20 PDT 1996
Article: 55816 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 15:04:18 GMT
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Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> >       But holohugging attorneys swear the latter is as good as and no
>> >different than the former.  They all swear on a stack of Torahs that
>> >testimony is equal to physical evidence.  Not only equal, the same as.

               ------------------------------
 
>> Holocaust eyewitness testimony is better than physical evidence. It
>> has to be. There is nothing else.

>Odd! So far an enormous amount of physical evidence has been presented.
>It has been examined, analyzed and otherwise processed in great detail.

Go for it. The "enormous" amount of physical evidence - the "great
detail" that is. 
               ------------------------------



>But - that is considered "nothing else".
>
>Only a pedophilic rapist offspring of an incestuous pair of slugs would
>consider that much evidence "nothing else".
>
>Errrr - were your parents ever - nah, of course not!



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:21 PDT 1996
Article: 55817 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 15:08:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:07:41 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>(deletia)
>
>>                  The Holocaust was.
>>How do we know? Eye-witness testimony, special interpretation of
>>documents. 
>
>
>How do we know?? simple, there was documentary evidence by the Nazis,
>there is expert testimony from the perpatrators themselves, there are
>photographs taken by Nazis, there is physical evidence of genocide by
>the Nazis. In other words moran, it happened, it was corroborated by
>victims, and perpatrators.
>You did know that, didn't you?? 

1. "Expert testimony"

2. "photographs"

3. "physical evidence"

	Okay lets start. You present it. I'll trash it.
>_______________________________________________________________________



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:22 PDT 1996
Article: 55821 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 15:39:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>And _why_ would a "cooling system" be required for the _flues_? They were
>underground and dissapated their heat (by conduction) to the surrounding
>earth. A relatively inexhaustable heat sink, btw. 

	So you would have it that the dissipation, conduction process
would stabilize to the immediate area of the flues and not expand
outward to reach the floors of the building? Is that what you are
saying?

	I would say that hot gases flowing through the flues at 1000 F
would manifest at hundreds of degrees in the vicinity of the floors.

	Of course you could come back and say the flue system was way
down. In that case we would have to ask you - how far down.

	The deeper you say the more it would mean there should still be
some evidence of this. The deeper you say, the more extensive and
powerful the exhausting system would have to be. 

	The deeper you say, the deeper you get.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 17:21:23 PDT 1996
Article: 55822 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:02:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
 
>> Indeed, we are talking about Crema II and or III, and here you are
>> with Crema I. 
>
>As I said: "for instance." The point was to illustrate that _increasing_
>the length of the flue _created_ the required draft. Ergo, long flues
>_solved_ the problem of insufficient draft. The chimney draft of Kremas II
>and III (with their underground flues) was sufficient from the very
>begining.

	That's right you did say "for instance". But nevertheless you did
point to Crema I when the topic was Cremas II and III.

	It does not follow that the length of the flue would create
increasing draft proportionally. Even if it did, Which it doesn't, we
are talking about flues underground, below the source point of the
gases. Heat rises. Draft principles are contingent on heat rising.
	There is no application of draft principles to the alleged
system, at least not until it got to the chimney. The longer the
flues, the more mighty and extensive the system would have to be.
Without the assist heat would build up a p[ressure in the flues and
further inhibit the free flow of hot gases from above and at least
half stuff would all come blasting out the fronts of the oven
chambers.  
	Whatever you wrote here is something you just dreamed up, made
up, fanaticized for convenience. It has absolutely no support from the
science of physics, only contradiction.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug  7 18:01:15 PDT 1996
Article: 55824 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:21:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>...The temperatures would be close to each other and still extreme.
>
>And on what basis have you determined that 500-700 C is an "extreme"
>temprature for the flues? Please be specific in citing your sources. Or is
>it simply Because Moran Says So? 

	Or is it VanAlstine thinks not? "500-700 C", for the system
proposed is extreme. In fact 500 to 700 C is extreme in general.
	This temperature can melt tin, lead, aluminum.
	Somewhere around 1000 C can melt copper and gold.
 
	Is this person, VanAlstine, an idiot? Seems so.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  8 10:31:10 PDT 1996
Article: 55895 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 13:56:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>That's a good point, Bill and one I am sure all ZOG operatives are memorizing
>as we speak, err... write.

	The best McFee can do? Evidentely. 

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  8 11:20:23 PDT 1996
Article: 55912 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 13:16:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># The Peters' report mentions 1 to 2 hours, by Mr.Keren/Nizkor
># relating, which was for prussic acid, no mention of Zyklon B, 
># which the related material Mr.Keren/Nizkor gave included the
># statement that grain size was unknown. Who knows? Maybe it 
># was liquid.
>
>No, it explicitly says Zyklon was used. Look it up. It's
>on the web.

	"Look it up. It's on the web" Mr.Keren says. Does he offer exact
locations? No.
	Who is this directed to anyway Mr.Keren? Just me, Moran?

>BTW, the conjecture made by "ehrlich" is irrelevant; the
>Paters-Rasch paper is from 1941.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  8 15:01:23 PDT 1996
Article: 55916 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:04:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># *Me*? When you say "*you*", do you mean I should give
># an answer to how the Germans got the shoes piled to 6
># stories high? 
>
>I assume this is taken from Gerstein's testimony?
>
>To make life easier, I'll quote an earlier article about
>Faurisson, which applies here; see below.
>
>The point Moran, and his fuherers, are trying to push,
>is the following: if one witness in one camp made one
>numerical/other error in his/her testimony, than the
>Holocaust is a hoax.

	Mr.Keren says "...if one witness in one camp made one
numerical/other error in his/her testimony, than the
Holocaust is a hoax.

	I would agree that if it was just one discrepancy in Holocaust
eyewitness testimony there wouldn't be much to go on. But when there
is scores, even hundreds, we have to start to 'look sideways'.

	My experience with testimonies is that the more there are, the
more discrepancies. Seems like every one of them could be compared to
another and find something contradictions.

	It is not a case of just "one" as Mr.Keren puts it.

	He's the one with the "one" with his lengthy discourse on
Faurisson.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug  8 15:01:24 PDT 1996
Article: 55923 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 13:34:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 45
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>
># The Zyklon B/carbon monoxide connection. 
>
>The conventional bombs/atomic bombs connection.
>
># Millions exterminated with carbon monoxide, a wide 
># spread and proven method, 
>
>Many cities destroyed with conventional bombs, a wide 
>spread and proven method, 
>
># and yet suddenly at Auschwitz, it's Zyklon B.
>
>And yet suddenly at Hiroshima, it's an atomic bomb.
>
>Quite a hoax, eh?

	I'm glad I'm not in Mr.Keren's position of having to resort to
off the wall comparisons. Whereas the atomic bomb was an improvement,
as far as being able to destroy, and wasn't developed until a certain
time, at which time they used it, Zyklon B was there already. It is
also evident, going by Holocaust facts, that carbon monoxide was used
with relative ease compared to what the Germans had to go through with
Zyklon B.
	And as Ehrich's post shows, with more direct approach than
Mr.Keren and company's tactics of referring people to some "images"
written in German, the product Zyklon B would have been a poor choice
since only 12.5%, at the most, of the product would have been used
with 87.5%, at the least, being un-necessary, wasted, left over to
complicate the unloading of the chambers and disposing of the left
over 87.5%.

>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 16:23:56 PDT 1996
Article: 56110 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lagace's testimony
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:49:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>So, Moran, are you in agreement with Legace that a corpse,
>inserted into a hot cremation furnaces, may ignite like
>a can of gasoline and burn the whole building down?

	Poor Mr.Keren, he has singled out something from the report which
he thinks he can ridicule and evidently he thinks this should make the
reader think that is all there is to denying the whole report.
	What it really shows is that Mr.Keren shys away from commenting
on the main gist of the report, that it shows all the Holocaust claims
for German crematorium rates as fantasies.

	What about it Mr.Keren, the report states it takes 1 1/2 to 2
hours to cremate a body to the fullest, whereas the Holocaust story
says they could cremate four bodies in 15 minutes, not mentioning any
cool off time, "continuously". Everything in the report denies the
claims.

	The testimony given by the expert witness was that of only one
man, yet if we had the chance to get every expert in the world to give
their knowledge of the subject, how many would give testimony that
would support the outlandish Holocaust lies about German crematorium
rates.
	How many would agree with 4 bodies could be cremated in 15
minutes whereas modern day crematoriums take 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

	Probably all those from Israel, and none from the rest of the
world. 


>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 18:48:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56137 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:34:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 91
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## The physical evidence is there.
>
>#        Where?
>
>Large amounts of human remains, documents, some of
>the gas chambers, and cyanide traces in those of
>Auschwitz-Birkenau. 
>
>## Why are you applying a double standard? Or are you
>## going to claim you don't remember what I'm talking
>## about, zeide?
>
># Instead of just claiming the above, which is your usual
># practice in responding, why don't you just post the 
># particulars?
>
>In Xref: world alt.revisionism:88383, posted on May 11 
>09:02:45 EDT 1996, you claimed that African slaves were
>"thrown over board enmass from ships transporting them to 
>the Americas".
>
>Regardless if this happened or not, you obviously have
>no physical proof whatsoever that it did.
>
>Which means that you're willing to accept that event A
>(for which there is no physical evidence) took place, while
>you refuse to accept that event B (for which there is
>physical evidence) took place.

	Your right. I don't have the proof. I recall reading about it in
school, when I was a kid. There are no photographs I presume, only
stories. But I'll let you be the one to post a denial of this
Afro-American history. 
	
	Your focus on denying other histories as an example for accepting
the Holocaust story leaves the question of whether or not we should
stop questioning one history because there is no concrete proof to
another.

	I would say the circumstances of accounting Afro-American history
is far different from the nature of Holocaust verification. The
Holocaust stands alone among the rest in producing the evidence.     

	One of the big differences in the history of the Holocaust and
any other history is the amount of coverage it gets in and on our
major medias. If a count was ever made of how many times the Holocaust
has been plugged in the U.S as opposed to all the other histories, the
Holocaust could come in first over all the others put together. 

	I personally am for historical accuracy, and would support anyone
who stands up for the rights. I would recognize the right to
investigate whether slaves were thrown over board in chains, but I
wouldn't be so stupid to be the one to do it. It is unoffensive. It
doesn't get even 1% of what the Holocaust story gets in our medias.

	Ninety nine percent (99%) of the Holocaust story is founded on
eyewitness testimonies that contradict each other.

	The Holocaust is saturating our system. It has the practices of
it's adherents trying to block discussion or refusing to debate. It is
loaded with intrigue. It is nothing more than a tool to extort money,
to justify Zionist practices and to instill guilt. It needs to be
crushed. It deserves to be set straight on the grounds of historical
accuracy and it's impact on the thinking processes of our people. 
	
	You Mr.Keren, continue to trash Afro-American history and I'll
continue to trash the Holocaust story. 	

	  



>This is a typical double standard applied by Nazis who
>deny the Holocaust. There's really nothing new here.





>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 18:48:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56138 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lagace's testimony
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:31:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 72
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>So, Moran, are you in agreement with Legace that a corpse,
>inserted into a hot cremation furnaces, may ignite like
>a can of gasoline and burn the whole building down?
>
>This is what he's saying (which is mighty fascinating,
>since other "revisionists" say corpses can't burn at all).
>
>Do you agree? YES OR NO?

	Do I agree with your terminology and analysis, you mean, or do I
agree with what he actually said about it?

	"Lagace
next took the jury through the Operations of Cremation Equipment
Manual which set out operating procedures for crematories. The manual
warned the operator, for the first case of the day, to "check and see
that the ash tray is installed in the ash pit" and warned that
"failure to have the ash tray installed can cause/or result in fire
outside the Retort!" (27-7407: Manual filed as Exhibit 105
at 27-7422) )  Lagacˇ explained the importance of this procedure,
especially in the case of obese cases, where incomplete combustion of
body fats occurred. In such an event, the burning body fats dripped
into the waterproof ash pan and continued to burn there. If the ash
pan wasn't there, however, the fluid would leak outside of the retort
and cause a fire outside the crematory. (27-7407, 7408)"

and

"Lagacˇ emphasized the real dangers involved if the cool-down periods
were not followed. If an operator attempted to introduce a body into
the retort when temperatures were still excessive, a "flash ignition"
could occur whereby the body would ignite before it was fully
introduced into the retort. In such a case, the operator would be
engulfed in flames from the burning body and would be unable to close
the door to the retort. To put it simply, he said, "you can
basically walk away and watch your building burn down." 

Do I agree, "Yes or no?"

How can I agree with expert testimony if I'm not an expert? Does it
sound feasible? Highly feasible? This would depend on whether the
building was solid concrete or made out of wood. Whether the tiles are
made of ceramic or are linoleum. Do I agree with the main topic, that
a fire could exit the retort into the general building area. Sounds
feasible. I would point out, where Legace introduced a "Operations of
Cremation Equipment Manual". If you have a problem with that, you
better write them a letter expressing your attitude.


As to your desperate;

>"This is what he's saying (which is mighty fascinating,
>since other "revisionists" say corpses can't burn at all)."

	The case scenario given by Legace and the manual is in relation
to introducing a body into a chamber that is still heated to a high
degree. I take it your angle is that this should support Holocaust
lies about people piled up in pits, on top of each other, in the open
air, that will continue to burn after the introduction (splashing) of
a flammable substance over the bodies.
	Two entirely different conditions, right? Yes or no.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 19:41:41 PDT 1996
Article: 56143 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Shhh! Don't mention it
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:40:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	How many people would think that the main gas said to have been
used for extermination, the gas that is at the center of the Auschwitz
story, was, in Holocaust reality, pellets made for fumigation
purposes.

	It's 'funny' that of all the talk about the Holocaust and
Auschwitz, which appears in myriads in and on our medias, rarely are
any details discussed.

	Inspite of the gas story being one of the foremost keywords in
the minds of the general public, inspite of it being the foremost
thing mentioned about the agents of mass extermination in the
Holocaust story, is it ever said exactly what the gas agent(s) were?
	
	The reason we don't see any discussion on what was the gas, is
because those who press the story know how ridiculous it would appear
to the mind of the viewer.

	Do your own poll. Ask people if they can identify the source and
type of gas(es) said to have been used during the Holocaust.

	When the answer comes up, 'I don't know', ask them why they
don't. Let them think about that for a while.
 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 19:41:42 PDT 1996
Article: 56144 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist FAQ (1) (Repost)
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:34:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <320a0185.6862549@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>
>> Why do you always refer the reader to the material you would have them
>> view as evidence for your position instead of just posting it
>> Mr.Keren?
>> 
>First Mr. Moron whines that Dr. Keren does not supply locations.
> 
>Then he complains when Dr. Keren *DOES* supply locations.
> 
>Make up your mind, Mr. Moron, what there is of it.
> 
>Sara

	Mr.Keren thanks you for endorsing his stuff. 

>-- 
>"It's always nice to see a prejudice overruled by a deeper prejudice."
>    John Sayles, _Lone Star_



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 19:41:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56145 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: demography, the missing jews
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:35:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:


>    In the New-York Post, 1 july 1991 (p.16) an article from Uri Dan,
>    journalist of Tel Aviv, say that up to now Israelis authority
>    were estimating the jewish russians to a number between 2 and
>    3 millions. 'But the israelis emissaries who can now travel freely
>    there report that a numer of 5 millions would be more accurate'.

	I have seen at least three different numbers for the population
of world Jewery today. These I saw in our daily newspaper format;
13,000,000, 16,000,000 and 20,000,000.

	What is indicated by the above cite from the Israeli newspaper is
the usual. The gross tossing around of numbers. In that case it was 2
to 3 million and now it is suddenly five million. Taking the 2 million
and the three million and compromising, we can make it two and a half
million. This would make the new five million twice as high as the two
and a half million.

	This all comes from the Israeli emissaries being able to travel
freely.
	Is it valid to wonder how they went about figuring the first
number of 2 to 3 million, and what they did to find it was twice that?



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 19:41:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56146 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:43:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	From my personal experience in studying the validity of the
Holocaust story, it seems that everything the story has to offer
either contradicts itself or something else.
	Be it photograph, eyewitness testimony, document or statement
attributed to the high command; be it from one Holocaust book to
another or websites, contradiction riegns, numbers, methods, places
and accounts. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 19:41:44 PDT 1996
Article: 56147 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:56:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <320b42ba.1615344@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3208abcf.351080@news.pacificnet.net>  <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net>  <4uf3k7$36d@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	You have been the strongest supporter of CO at Treblinka and suddenly
>when it is not the hottest thing since sex in another place you are
>all over it.  
>
>	This is the usual holohugging crap.  Used Russian and German for that
>matter tank engines were as available at A-B as at Treblinka.  
>
>	Deal with reality, not with the spin you think you can put on it.  
	

	It doesn't really matter what Mr.Keren has to say on the agents
of mass extermination. The idea is so ridiculous most people I have
told about it get that 'looking sideways' expression on their face.

	It is just another part of the Holocaust Achilles heal.
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 19:41:45 PDT 1996
Article: 56148 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:59:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <320b4400.1941214@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32057386.18750351@news.pacificnet.net> <4u754r$50b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075903.1326219@news.pacificnet.net> <3207785E.176C@gryn.org> <3208afe2.1394106@news.pacificnet.net> <320A18E5.5C39@gryn.org>
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Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> Go for it. The "enormous" amount of physical evidence - the "great
>> detail" that is.
>
>Are you sure that you want it all? In context, of course.
>
>Please reply here - so that there will be no mistake that you asked for
>it.


	>> Holocaust eyewitness testimony is better than physical
evidence. It has to be. There is nothing else.

>Odd! So far an enormous amount of physical evidence has been presented.
>It has been examined, analyzed and otherwise processed in great detail.

Go for it. The "enormous" amount of physical evidence - the "great
detail" that is. 
               ------------------------------


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 19:41:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56149 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:31:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <320b3d7f.276712@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3208abcf.351080@news.pacificnet.net>  <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net> <320a0d54.597028290@news.zilker.net>
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

Moran:
>>	And as Ehrich's post shows, with more direct approach than
>>Mr.Keren and company's tactics of referring people to some "images"
>>written in German, the product Zyklon B would have been a poor choice
>>since only 12.5%, at the most, of the product would have been used
>>with 87.5%, at the least, being un-necessary, wasted, left over to
>>complicate the unloading of the chambers and disposing of the left
>>over 87.5%.

Curtis:
>Golly, who said it took the whole thing to kill?

Moran:
	Now if we should use the 5 minute figure that the Holocaust story
sometimes has for the time to kill people with Zyklon B, and we used
the study's figure of 80 to 90 percent HCN released in about 9 hours,
we might get the idea that maybe only .000001% would be used for the
extermination process, the rest remaining, not used, left over.

	The simple mathematics shows, giving the Holocaust story all the
benefits of accomodation of the numbers used, that 87% would be
unused. Thus by any sense of efficiency, we have to recognize that the
product would be a ridiculous choice for mass extermiantion.

	My appreciation to Mr.Curtis, for giving the opportunity to post
this summary in response.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug  9 19:41:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56150 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:34:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## No, it explicitly says Zyklon was used. Look it up. It's
>## on the web.
>
># "Look it up. It's on the web" Mr.Keren says. Does he offer exact
># locations? No.
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images
>
>Files peters-rasch-135.jpg (bottom) and peters-rasch-136.jpg
>(section 2. of that page).

	Okay there it is. Anyone who can read German and won't mind
having to scroll the light gray 24 point type sideways, go for it.
It would have been a lot easier for everyone involved, including the
Internet resources if Mr.Keren just posted it here, but for some
reason he never does, preferring to direct people to Nizkor files.  

>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 09:53:51 PDT 1996
Article: 56235 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lagace's testimony
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:59:44 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

	Jean-Francois Beaulieu, this report stands sufficient to belay
all the Holocuast crema rate exaggerations, with utter, total effect.
You owe me a new pair of socks.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 09:53:52 PDT 1996
Article: 56244 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:14:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
In <320b42ba.1615344@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

[snip]

>	It doesn't really matter what Mr.Keren has to say on the agents
>of mass extermination. The idea is so ridiculous most people I have
>told about it get that 'looking sideways' expression on their face.

I don't suppose it has *ever* occurred to you, Li'l Tommy, that if you
choose to conduct yourself in "real life," as you do here in alt.
revisionism, _anything_ you say about _anything_ would give reasonable
people cause to "get that 'looking sideways' expression on their
face."

>	It is just another part of the Holocaust Achilles heal.

The above is a prime example!  Here's a secret Li'l Tommy:  they are
'looking sideways' primarily to be polite and to avoid letting you
know that they are laughing at you.  Either that or they are totally
disgusted at finding themselves in the presence of a hate-filled,
ignorant, lying bigot such as you have proven yourself to be.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 12:13:36 PDT 1996
Article: 56290 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Can't Answer a Simple Question (Re: Lagace's testimony)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:41:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Poor Mr.Keren, he has singled out something from the
># report which he thinks he can ridicule and evidently
># he thinks this should make the reader think that is
># all there is to denying the whole report.
>
>Answer the question, you tiresome clown. Why can't
>you answer it already?

	"you tiresome fool"? I can sense your panic Mr.Keren.

>Do you agree with Legace's claim that a corpse may ignite
>like a can of gasoline when inserted into a hot cremation
>furnace? YES OR NO? Has any such case been recorded?

	Anyone wanting to see if Mr.Keren is asking a question that has
already been answered, see above post by Moran in this thread.

># What it really shows is that Mr.Keren shys away from
># commenting on the main gist of the report, 
>
>This *is* the main gist of the report; Legace uses this
>argument to try and prove that cremation of many corpses
>will take a lot of time, because, so he claims, there
>would have to be a long cool-down period between cremations.

	This "*is*" the main gist of the report. I wonder if Mr.Keren
stamped his foot down when typing the stressed word "is".

># What about it Mr.Keren, the report states it takes 1 1/2 to 2
># hours to cremate a body to the fullest, 
>
>I just posted a section from the cremation society's FAQ. They
>say less than an hour for some furnaces. They also say that
>when the furnace is warm, it takes about half the time to
>cremate a corpse.

	"Just"? The way someone who had faith in their stuff would post
it right here with the Legace report for easy comparison. Here goes
Mr.Keren again, making a reference to something with actually
delivering. C h u t z p a, Mr.Keren. Its a balloon full of hot air.

>The 1951 Topf patent gives 30-45 minutes.

	Patents and realities Mr.Keren. Will we ever see this evidence
Mr.Keren, in it's fullest, in English? No.

># whereas the Holocaust story says they could cremate four
># bodies in 15 minutes, 
>
>15 minutes is not true, probably, but this is not what most 
>accounts give. The real question is, could they cremate 
>the number of corpses comparable to reasonable estimates 
>of the number of people who died in the camp? Obviously, they
>could. A simple calculation proves this.

	In the report given in Nizkor files majdanek, "maidanek" or
whatever ".004" states that at that camp they cut off the limb
extremities of the bodies in order to get 4 bodies at a time into the
ovens. The report cites the number of bodies that could be cremated in
the 6 ovens in one day as 1920, and after a few more words "far more"
could be cremated.
	The figures given in that report would not allow for even the
slightest cool down time.
	What this utter fool is also saying here is, if they say there
was an extermination camp, that it killed so many people, then this is
proof that the cremas could do it. "A simple calculation proves it." 

>And a simple calculation proves the SS would never build
>so many crematoriums and cremation furnaces unless they
>were planning to carry out mass murder.

	No one has proved "so many crematoriums". Nobody has proved they
were used to cremate millions.

># The testimony given by the expert witness was that of
># only one man, 
>
>"Expert"? This "expert" talks about corpses exploding and
>igniting like a napalm bomb, burning the whole building
>down (!!) - this is what he says. Some "expert" indeed.

	Now we must ask the panicky Mr.Keren to show where in the report
it says the bodies exploded "like a napalm bomb". 

>Sounds like Fred Leuchter's claim about Bischoff ordering
>to store corpses in a warm room, so they "will not freeze".
>
>You people are insane. Seek medical help. Corpses igniting
>like a can of gasoline. Corpses stored in warm rooms, so
>they "will not freeze". Crazy "revisionists" meatheads...
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 12:13:37 PDT 1996
Article: 56295 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:58:20 GMT
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		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		

















quatchen


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 12:13:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56296 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:18:06 GMT
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	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same general
path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and cremation,
and also the acitivities of the Einsatzgruppens, the preceding
"anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable treatment to
establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding 1939. After all,
if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put to death, they
have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena to have been
killed.
       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
(estimated)". In this table he has three verticle columns:

   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"


	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
5,200,000 in just 210 years.
	It seems that Bauer's list has Jewish population expanding at an
incredible rate between 1650 and 1860, where between 1800 and 1825
alone, the "estimated" Jewish population almost doubled from 1,500,000
to 2,730,000 in the 25 year period, all this increase taking place
during a time when the average life expectancy of man was about 50
some years, further stressed by wars, famines and plagues, and the
Jews undergoing "massive progroms".
	One has to wonder how these "estimated" figures for dates from
1650 to 1860 would have been compiled in 1931. Especially since those
dates were times when communications and census capacities were
extremely low. If in fact there is such a book as the one cited as the
source, we would have to view the whole line of recogning offered in
the book to determine if the statistics aren't just founded on wishful
thinking.
	("Argumentum ad ignorantum: An argument purporting to demonstrate
a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of facts and
reasons the falsity or inadequacy of which is not readily diserned.")
	  
	By the early 20th Century Bauer, using a map from map happy
Gilbert, has the Jewish population up to 8,700,000 in Europe and
11,487,000 world wide.
	Its obvious that Holocaust books give consider effort to
establishing Jewish populations in order to show that there were
enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6,000,000.  Without
such treatment the story would be more stressed than it is on other
fronts.
	As usual, in their blantant tossing around of terms and numbers,
they include something that further throws suspicions on their claims,
and in this case Bauer offers us a map from Gilbert:

	"Some early records of Jewish town life in Europe before 1600":
that has to resort to listing the most obscure events to show that
Jews were even present in Europe. For Cologne 960 , it has "The local
Jews send a letter to Palestine asking for verification of a rumor
that a Messiah had come", not meaning Jesus Christ we can assume. In
Brussel 1310, "A Jewish scribe completes a fine illuminated
manuscript". In Munich 1228, "A Jew appears in court as a witness
during a trial", and 1173 at Wroclawek "Local coins discovered with
Hebrew inscriptions". So it seems it is necessary to pick up on wee
fragments of evidence to even show Jews existed in Europe by 1300 or
so. Given the Jewish penchant to seek out and hold anything Jewish,
this hardly seems like sufficient history to support the 700,000
Jewish population said to have been in existance by 1650.   	
	We might even want to consider the stories about millions of Jews
fleeing into the Soviet Union, which is said to already have had a
sizable Jewish population during WWII, and then ending up at only
about 2,500,000 or so by 1980. No problem here for Bauer's numbers
since he has about a million of them migrating to the U.S. at the end
of the 19th Century which would put the WWII population of Jews in the
U.S.S.R. low enough to accept the millions said to have fled the Nazis
and still be able to arrive at the numbers in recent times.
       Whatever happened to those million or so Russian Jews said to
have migrated to the U.S. at the end of the 19th century we can only
wonder, since if there was a million here by that time we would expect
millions more here and now in 1996, which there aren't to this day.
	Exaggerations, thorough fabrications - lies. Thats this aspect of
the Holocaust story, as with the rest. 	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 12:35:05 PDT 1996
Article: 56299 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 18:20:21 GMT
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syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	One contradiction I might tend to omit in lieu of other none
>>contradicting evidence, but if there is a lot of it, I might start
>>seeing a trend. If there are just two contradicting testimonies to
>>anything, I could say I can't make a determination. On the other hand
>>I could weigh the credibilities on realistics.
>
>Keep something in mind here: given the sheer number of people involved (and
>over many different places), you're guaranteed to get people who remember
>differently. If Hoess says "they died right away" while another eyewitness
>says it took them a few minutes to die, they are still in agreement on one
>point: death.
>
>(And if that wasn't what happened, what did, and what's the evidence of
>*that*?)
>
>Come to think of it, if thousands of people all said exactly the same
>thing, it would be more suspicious than if they had disagreed.

	This is the second time in a few days I have seen, the more
discrepancies the more it proves the truth, theme. 

> This was
>what I was trying to say with the traffic-accident example.
>
>>	Your example doesn't fit the logic. You are talking about a
>>incident in progress. You are talking about two individuals
>>communicating with each other and not telling their story to a third
>>party. In fact you have, inadvertently I suppose, included a factor
>>that is mostly missing from the Holocaust story, "two wrecked cars".
>>	I stand by the statement.
>
>OK, give me an example that does fit the logic.

	Discussion of the evidence directly, for now.
What "fits" your logic is something you will have to figure out. 
>"Mostly missing"? I dunno -- that's a hard one to swallow. Dead bodies are
>one thing and that's been handled elsewhere in great detail with regard to
>the ashes and the mass graves. What specifically is missing?
>____________________________________________________________________________
>syegul@ix.netcom.com                                             IRC: GinRei
>http://www.io.com/~syegul                          another worldly device...
>____________________________________________________________________________
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 14:47:53 PDT 1996
Article: 56306 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:15:51 GMT
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syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) sez:
>
>>	From my personal experience in studying the validity of the
>>Holocaust story, it seems that everything the story has to offer
>>either contradicts itself or something else.
>>	Be it photograph, eyewitness testimony, document or statement
>>attributed to the high command; be it from one Holocaust book to
>>another or websites, contradiction riegns, numbers, methods, places
>>and accounts. 
>
>Yesterday I drove by a head-on collision that had taken place in front of a
>store I needed to get something from. I parked in the lot and when I came
>out I was privy to a heated and vicious argument between the two drivers.
>
>Both were stubbornly insisting the other guy hit him.
>
>Nevertheless, there were two wrecked cars on the road. Nothing changed
>that.
>
>I think you seriously misunderstand the implications of contradictions.

	One contradiction I might tend to omit in lieu of other none
contradicting evidence, but if there is a lot of it, I might start
seeing a trend. If there are just two contradicting testimonies to
anything, I could say I can't make a determination. On the other hand
I could weigh the credibilities on realistics.
	Your example doesn't fit the logic. You are talking about a
incident in progress. You are talking about two individuals
communicating with each other and not telling their story to a third
party. In fact you have, inadvertently I suppose, included a factor
that is mostly missing from the Holocaust story, "two wrecked cars".
	I stand by the statement.

>Next thing you'll be telling me JFK shot himself.

	

>____________________________________________________________________________
>syegul@ix.netcom.com
>http://www.io.com/~syegul                          another worldly device...
>____________________________________________________________________________
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 14:47:54 PDT 1996
Article: 56307 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:25:04 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Whereas the atomic bomb was an improvement, as far as being
># able to destroy, and wasn't developed until a certain
># time, at which time they used it, Zyklon B was there 
># already. It is also evident, going by Holocaust facts, 
>that 
># carbon monoxide was used with relative ease compared to 
>what 
># the Germans had to go through with Zyklon B.

>Hardly. Bottled CO was rather expensive and difficult to
>ship around in large quantities. Engine exhaust caused
>problems (we have the report about an explosion taking
>place in Chelmno), engines would break down, and it is
>not clear how it would apply for the huge gas chambers
>of Birkenau.

	Nizkor > Ftp > camps > "majdanek .004". A Soviet report states
they found gas tanks that were said to hold CO.
	You say a report on an explosion from exhaust fumes. It must have
been a freak accident. The process was simple by most Holocaust facts.
An engine, some pipes, and that was it. It is said that over 3,000,000
people were killed with carbon monoxide gas from the engine source,
and you point to a report about "an explosion taking place", from
exhaust fumes.
 
>Zyklon-B was available at large quantities; it was cheap; a
>very small amount can kill thousands of people; and the SS
>had a great deal of experience with using it.

	So what you are saying is that Zyklon B was cost effective over
carbon monoxide?

     The Zyklon B would be made after a number of steps and
transportations. The manufacture of the materials for the carrier and
shipping to Degesch, the manufacture of the HCN and shipping, the
making of the product (under specialized conditions one would think),
packaging in the cans, crating, shipping. Not to mention all the other
little expenses, man hours, clerical, worker, etc. Printing that had
to be put on the side of the cans. Training teams, and a slue of other
expense considerations.

	With the carbon monoxide trick, all one had to do is put a little
gas in the engine, start it up, turn it off. 

	Seems like Zyklon B could cost 10 or 20 times that for the carbon
monoxide procedure.

>#  And as Ehrich's post shows, with more direct approach than
># Mr.Keren and company's tactics of referring people to 
># some "images" written in German, 

>Can you elaborate?

	Ehrlich's post is in English. He seems to have posted the
material itself, instead of just referring people to it. 

># the product Zyklon B would have been a poor choice
># since only 12.5%, at the most, of the product would have 
># been used with 87.5%, 

>More than 12.5; but this is not really crucial.

	"Not really crucial"? Crucial to what? It's capacity to kill, or
its cost effectiveness. Maybe you are referring to some other
"crucial". 

	I see you have employed one of your favorite practices here.
"More than ..." without saying how much more.   

	Anyway, here you have just offered up the proposal that the
Germans may have chosen Zyklon B over carbon monoxide because of
expense considerations and here you are saying something about "not
really crucial" in relation to the figures showing that 87.5% of the
product would have been un-necessary, wasted.
	
># at the least, being un-necessary, wasted, left over to
># complicate the unloading of the chambers and disposing of 
># the left over 87.5%.

>As noted here dozens of times, these "complications" were
>trivial to solve, using a ventilation system (or natural
>ventilation), and gas masks.

	It doesn't matter how many times something may have been noted,
the statement doesn't mean anything.
	You say the complications would have been trivial? Certainly not
in relation to the use of carbon monoxide. The Holocaust Zyklon B
story is loaded with tales of woe for using Zyklon B. 
	SS having to go around from one window to another with a step
ladder, doing a "balancing act" while dumping in the Zyklon B, cutting
holes in roofs through iron reinforced concrete, construction of
special pillars and wire mesh introduction cages. Picking up the
remaining Zyklon B which would by then still have about 50% of the
HCN, getting rid of and/or recycling the expended Zyklon B pellets to
something else. Gas masks. 
	Is this the "trivial" you are talking about?

>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 14:47:55 PDT 1996
Article: 56308 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:03:54 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># How many people would think that the main gas said to have
># been used for extermination, the gas that is at the center
># of the Auschwitz story, was, in Holocaust reality, pellets
># made for fumigation purposes.
>
>And how many Nazi "revisionists" know that these pellets
>release the very same gas that is used, up to this day,
>to execute condemned inmates in US prisons?

	Gas chambers employing HCN may be fact, but doing it with pellets
is not part of the fact.
	Poor Mr.Keren, he fires off the "Nazi" term.

>Think about that, little Tommy. Think about that.
>
>Someone needs to kill many people with poison gas. He
>has large quantities of a substance which releases a very
>lethal form of cyanide gas. It's cheap. He can obtain
>large quantities of it. It also has an innocent use,
>which helps keep the operation secret. He has great
>experience with using it.
>
>So he used it. This is not hard to understand.
>
># It's 'funny' that of all the talk about the Holocaust and
># Auschwitz, which appears in myriads in and on our medias, 
># rarely are any details discussed.
>
>I have no idea what little Tommy means by "rarely". The
>Zyklon is described in most, or all, texts I've read about
>the Holocaust. 

	Of course when you say "text" you mean books specializing in the
Holocaust story, and the post focuses on what is given in the general
medias. 

>Most people also have no idea about how an A-bomb works, 
>yet they don't deny Hiroshima because of that.

	Here's another one of Mr.Keren's special logic analogies. Does it
fit the premise o0f the post? No.

># is it ever said exactly what the gas agent(s) were?

>Yes.

	No. In our medias? Never.

># The reason we don't see any discussion on what was the gas, 

>But we do. You're a liar.

	I can sense your panic Mr.Keren. 


>Go to sleep, zeide. You're going down the tubes. God save
>you if your fuehrers ever get to power. You'll be off to the
>"T4 operation" before you can say "exterminationist".
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 15:58:30 PDT 1996
Article: 56329 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: demography, the missing jews
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:17:15 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

Edeiken:
>>  No.  I'm still here and you are still a liar.

Jean-Francois:
>  The word is given. Lets see the remaining...

	That's all your going to see Mr.Beaulieu. That's about all there
is to Mr.Edeiken. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 16:58:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56336 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:43:25 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>	Since the chimneys are back in the news, here they are in all of their
>irregular, huge, shadowless glory from the aerial view.

	I always get a little amused at this photo. Especially that part
where it points "Possible cremation pit". Considering present day
technology, there should be no problem with determining if it was a
cremation pit. There it is. An exact location, yet it is dubbed only a
"Possible cremation pit".

	Those shadows supposing to be ventilation and/or introduction
ports over the area titled "gas chamber" - blotches, nothing more.

	This is Crema II? Where is the "sanitation system" shown in other
photographs?

	Holocaust photos? More so evidence against the story, than for
it. This why the Holocaust dependents shy away from playing up
photographs. 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 18:49:42 PDT 1996
Article: 56342 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lagace's testimony
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:16:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <320c8b8b.284072@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4u38ba$fq1@Vir.com>  <3209fff2.6459674@news.pacificnet.net>  <320b4d42.4311173@news.pacificnet.net> <320B15A3.3EB4@rio.com>
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>
>
>Chuck Ferree writes for Moran:
>
>So therefore the Holocaust didn't happen, right?  You have been 
>splitting hairs, bluffing your ass off, making up statistics, cutting 
>corners with the truth, and generally bullshitting your way through 
>life. I personally have nailed your ass several times. And I ain't the 
>best ass-nailer in the group. But then you're such a easy target, 
>being so dumb and all.

	He who announces himself, presents the fool.

	Where, exactly have you "nailed" Moran's ass to anything. You
also said, "splitting hairs", "bluffing", "making up statistics",
"cutting corners with the truth" and "generally bullshitting".

	Now where is all that Chuck?

	Lets see the nails.

>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >So, Moran, are you in agreement with Legace that a corpse,
>> >inserted into a hot cremation furnaces, may ignite like
>
>clips
>>
>> >-Danny Keren.
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>> >
>> >-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 18:49:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56343 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor - an enviromental hazard
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:20:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <320c8ba7.311919@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-9.pacificnet.net
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	Nizkor is a threat to our ecological system. Many of their FTP
files are posts from alt.revisionism, whether their own post or
someone else. Nizkor leaves the headers in which takes up about a
quarter of a page. Include this with their signing format and a whole
half page is wasted. Printing out Nizkor files often ends up with just
the Nizkor signature on the last page, all trhis thereby reeking havoc
on our forestry.

	Printing Nizkor files including the alt.revisionism headers and
Nizkor signature stresses out your printer, demanding more ink and hot
time.   

	It also requires more retrieval time putting more demand on the
Internet resources.

     People who have those rip off servers, like Compu-serve, end up
having to pay more for the online time needed to wait for the
alt.revisionism headers and Nizkor signatures.

	Storing Nizkor files in your computer clobbers your hard drive
with all the extra atl.revisionism headers and Nizkor signatures.

	All this ends up using more electrical resources.

	In addition to the Nizkor headers and footers being an ecological
disaster all the rest of the nonsense threatens our ecological and
spititual well being. 
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 18:49:44 PDT 1996
Article: 56344 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:48:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <320c931b.2220288@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <320b3feb.896046@news.pacificnet.net> <4uftvj$6k7@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote:
>Next thing you'll be telling me JFK shot himself.

	Actually I have done some investigation on that. I have read a
few books, seen a couple of films, and heard peoples views on the
conspiracy theories. I have also visited Dallas and spent a day in the
area. In spite of all the books, the films and opinions, I think Lee
Harvey Oswald did it. Whether there was a conspiracy behind him, I
don't know.

____________________________________________________________________________
>syegul@ix.netcom.com
>http://www.io.com/~syegul                          another worldly device...
>____________________________________________________________________________
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 18:49:44 PDT 1996
Article: 56345 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it [Technical aspects of the gassings]
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:53:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <320c93ee.2430815@news.pacificnet.net>
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rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Are you advocating further education on the technical aspects of the
>Holocaust now? It was more than fifty years ago, you know; what would be
>the point? I think the general nonspecialist understanding of the fact
>that Hitler's Nazi regime murdered some 10-12 million people, some 5-6
>million of whom were Jews targeted for extermination solely on the basis
>of being Jews, is sufficent. There's a lot of things that the
>nonspecialist general public doesn't know. I hardly think that stuffing
>every student's head with all the details of the Nazi plans for mass
>murder is worth it. It's enough for me that the facts are readily
>available in any decent library, should some child be temporarily confused
>by Holocaust deniers. 

	Whoa. I can sense Graves panting, envision the sweat on his
forehead. The panic.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 18:49:45 PDT 1996
Article: 56352 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:57:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <320ca1c4.5972983@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32057386.18750351@news.pacificnet.net> <3209ef8c.2261427@news.pacificnet.net>  <320b3dbe.339381@news.pacificnet.net> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>YOU'RE the one in trouble here. You admit that you're
>applying a double standard when evaluating the authenticity
>of historical events. You demand standards for the 
>Holocaust which you do not demand for other events.
>
>You're up the creek, zeide. 

	Wait a minute here. Just a second. What's going on? You forgot to
capitalize "you're" like you did in the previous use of the word.
	Double standards the Mr.Keren says and here he changes up from
stressing his words with those little * things and now he is
capitalizing the words.

># Ninety nine percent (99%) of the Holocaust story is founded 
># on eyewitness testimonies 
>
>A lie.
>
># that contradict each other.
>
>Another lie.
>
># You Mr.Keren, continue to trash Afro-American history
># and I'll continue to trash the Holocaust story.  
>
>I am not trashing Afro-American history; I am not a sadistic,
>hateful Nazi like our "Holocaust revisionists", whose pleasure
>in life is to spit on the graves of innocent men, women, and
>children, murdered because of hate and barbarism.

	Anyone wanting to see Mr.Keren's racist denial analogy, see his
stuff, this thread.

>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 18:49:46 PDT 1996
Article: 56357 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 17:18:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <320cbd4f.13023980@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4uhi8c$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320c8ff2.1411242@news.pacificnet.net> <320cb34b.10459752@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	Should we check out this Crema II and its orientation in an
>aerial shot of Birkenau we see it has a east/west orientation length
>wise, with the ell facing pretty much directly north. The sun sets in
>the west. This photo was taken in the afternoon, evidenced by the
>length of the shadows. The shadow is totally ass backwards from what
>it should be. This can not possibly be the same "Crema II" as the
>"Cremas II" in the aerial photo.

	Something has to be amiss. Either the Holocaust story is correct
and our determinations of the solar system motions are incorrect, or
it's the other way around.

	I can see the headlines now,

'Holocaust Story Snuffs Out Long Held Views on Solar System's
Movements'.

'Piece of Holocaust evidence 
shows that our Sun does not
set in the west'.

	Scientists working at the JPL laboratories in Pasadena California
have discovered a photograph from the mounds of Holocaust evidence
that suggest we may have to change our views on how the Solar System
works. 
	In what appears to be another confirmation of the Holocaust
story's ability to challenge long held laws of physics .... But some
in the scientific community do not accept the new opinion ... Cringing
>from  charges of anti-Semitism, some of the scientific community is now
starting to see the new analysis as possibly valid ...
	Scientists in Israel say it is absolutely a fact that the Sun
does not set in the West and say they have discovered the laws of
thermodynamics and conservation of energy are totally wrong in lieu of
studies done on crematorium rates during the Holocaust... 
	In other studies done in Israel on comparing Holocaust facts with
the theory of cosmic expansion ...'  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 18:49:47 PDT 1996
Article: 56367 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 16:22:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <320cb34b.10459752@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4uhi8c$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320c8ff2.1411242@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>	Since the chimneys are back in the news, here they are in all of their
>>irregular, huge, shadowless glory from the aerial view.

	I just love Holocaust photographs.

	In this photo that Giwer has posted, it shows the shadow of the
chimney.

	Should we check out this Crema II and its orientation in an
aerial shot of Birkenau we see it has a east/west orientation length
wise, with the ell facing pretty much directly north. The sun sets in
the west. This photo was taken in the afternoon, evidenced by the
length of the shadows. The shadow is totally ass backwards from what
it should be. This can not possibly be the same "Crema II" as the
"Cremas II" in the aerial photo.

	Poor, poor Holocaust story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 19:40:23 PDT 1996
Article: 56377 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 18:14:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <320cd0fd.18061701@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <320b3feb.896046@news.pacificnet.net> <4uftvj$6k7@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <320c931b.2220288@news.pacificnet.net> <4uievs$5rm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote:
>>>Next thing you'll be telling me JFK shot himself.
>
>>	Actually I have done some investigation on that. I have read a
>>few books, seen a couple of films, and heard peoples views on the
>>conspiracy theories. I have also visited Dallas and spent a day in the
>>area. In spite of all the books, the films and opinions, I think Lee
>>Harvey Oswald did it. Whether there was a conspiracy behind him, I
>>don't know.
>
>[Actually, I'm sure LHO was the man himself -- just trying to punch up the
>absurdity of what I was being confronted with here. Of *course* JFK didn't
>shoot himself. But then again, maybe Oliver Stone would like to make a
>movie about *that* as well?...]

	According to Oliver Stone, the likely culprits were, the CIA, the
FBI, the Sicilian Mafia, the Corsican Mafia, the corporate world in
cahoots with Lyndon Johnson and/or Fidel Castro.
>____________________________________________________________________________
>syegul@ix.netcom.com                                             IRC: GinRei
>http://www.io.com/~syegul                          another worldly device...
>____________________________________________________________________________
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 10 23:37:05 PDT 1996
Article: 56392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 00:02:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <320d230c.39068866@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31d921ee.5817326@news.pacificnet.net> <31ee3850.492128@news.pacificnet.net> <31f0d57a.2550332@news.pacificnet.net> <4ss9ft$ksk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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8/10/96

Whoa, indeed!  Gee, Li'l Tommy, best you get back to your doctor ASAP
and *demand* that he review your medications.  This hallucinatory
projection is an indication that you have _completely_ lost touch with
reality.  And while you are there, please do mention to the doctor the
problem you are having with your perseverative delusional postings of
lies and hate-filled drivel.  He might be able to refer you to someone
to help you work through your problems.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 56588 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:50:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <320e0f38.5246490@news.pacificnet.net>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article ,
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>
>>.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan Schneider) wrote:
>>
>>> Wenn Sie behaupten, dass es im Deutschen so etwas wie einen speziellen 
>>> technischen Ausdruck gaebe, der der 'groessere Teil' heisst
>>
>>Der _groesste_ Teil.  The deniers, by repeating a lie often enough, have
>>gotten you to repeat it as well.
>>
>>
>>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images/p
>eters-64.jpg
>>
>>
>
>Why do you continue to neglect the fact that the 1933 text was written at
>precisely the time when the diatomite component was being replaced with
>gypsum to slow down the evaporation time?

	Your asking for it Ehrlich. Jamie's liable to come back and hit
you with a "Bwahahaha".
	I'll give you the straight answer, right from Jamie's inner
'mind'. Because it wouldn't be any good for the Holocaust story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 56589 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it [Technical aspects of the gassings]
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:52:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <320e0fb6.5372433@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <320b3e8f.548700@news.pacificnet.net> <4ugagk$dcp@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4uk3m2$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	Excuse me.  But were the homosexuals, gypsies, and Slavs not also
>targeted solely on the basis of being homosexuals, gypsies and Slavs?

	Good point Giwwwwwwwwwwwer. The Jews are always trying to
distinguish their alleged fatalities as special above all the rest of
the alleged fatalities.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:54 PDT 1996
Article: 56590 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor - an enviromental hazard
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:52:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 
>: 	Nizkor is a threat to our ecological system. Many of their FTP
>: files are posts from alt.revisionism, whether their own post or
>: someone else. Nizkor leaves the headers in which takes up about a
>: quarter of a page. Include this with their signing format and a whole
>: half page is wasted. Printing out Nizkor files often ends up with just
>: the Nizkor signature on the last page, all trhis thereby reeking havoc
>: on our forestry.
>
>What are you worried about, Tommy?  I thought you said it was impossible
>to print Nizkor files...

	I figured out how to do it. I bring up the file I want to print.
Then I photograph it and have the picture develped and printed 8 X 14.
I then put the print onto my flat bed scanner with OCR. Then I enter
it into the computer.



>
>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 56591 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:51:24 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 115
Message-ID: <320e0f7b.5312785@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net>  <320c8ca2.563475@news.pacificnet.net> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Nizkor > Ftp > camps > "majdanek .004". A Soviet report
># states they found gas tanks that were said to hold CO.
>
>True, and I believe this gas bottle is still in Maidanek.
>Bottled CO was also used for some time in Belzec, but
>it was obviously easier to use an engine than to transport
>these large, heavy bottles, in great quantities, to the
>death camps.

	The only place I saw mention of "bottled gas" was at Majdanek.
The document mentions a few bottles. Maybe you can show some of your
pet testimony to show where it says bottled gas was used first
someplace, as your personal testimony implies. 

># The Zyklon B would be made after a number of steps and
># transportations. The manufacture of the materials for the
># carrier and shipping to Degesch, the manufacture of the 
># HCN and shipping, the making of the product (under 
># specialized conditions one would think), packaging in 
># the cans, crating, shipping. Not to mention all the other
># little expenses, man hours, clerical, worker, etc. 
># Printing that had to be put on the side of the cans. 
># Training teams, and a slue of other expense considerations.
>
>This ignores the fact that it was already being manufactured
>in great quantities, and that all of what you talk about
>already existed. 

	But we were talking about the cost effectiveness of it compared
to CO from engines. You chose not to address the points.
     Any great quantities manufactured were for fumigation purposes,
to all kinds of departments. Again, you bypassed address to the
premise of the post.

>The point is moot. There were two main methods used to
>gas people: engine exhaust and Zyklon. Both were cheap
>and easy. Wirth chose method A, Hoess chose method B. Not
>much more to it. 

	Utter lie, or utter stupidity - both. Hoess was not the one who
chose any Zyklon B. The thing, by Holocaust accounts, was started when
Hoess returned to the camp after a trip away to find out the asst.
commandant tried it.

>Different people will choose different methods. Like generals
>using a different strategy during a war. Or chess players
>using a different strategy during a game. 

	What your saying here is no high command had any well thought out
plan for the over all mass extermination of Jews. What your saying is
it was left up to individuals.   

># Anyway, here you have just offered up the proposal that the
># Germans may have chosen Zyklon B over carbon monoxide because of
># expense considerations
>
>With regard to bottled CO, yes.

	Where is it specified the conditions were bottled CO? In fact the
whole thing was compared to carbon monoxide from engines. This is the
record of the thread, here and now.

># SS having to go around from one window to another with a step
># ladder, doing a "balancing act" while dumping in the Zyklon B, 
># cutting holes in roofs through iron reinforced concrete, 
># construction of special pillars and wire mesh introduction 
># cages. Picking up the remaining Zyklon B which would by then 
># still have about 50% of the HCN, getting rid of and/or 
># recycling the expended Zyklon B pellets to something else. 
># Gas masks. 
>
>Sigh. All this effort together would amount to, say, tenth
>of a percent of the effort needed to build one U-boat. If one's
>going to kill such a huge number of people with poison gas,
>he'll have to put some effort into this. 

	As compared to the pipe into the wall, and turning the engine on
and off, Zyklon B over carbon monoxide would be like building a U-boat
over a rowboat.

>Gas masks. Big problem. They had them and used them anyway
>for delousing.
>
>Climbing a few steps on a ladder. Wow. 

	Did you forget the other methods? Getting on the roofs and
opening the hatch, pulling up the wire cage, putting on the gas masks,
opening the cans, pouring them in, lowering the cage, closing the
hatch?
	All this compared to, start the engine and turn it off.
	
>You're really trying to say that cutting a few holes through
>the roof would have been a major undertaking for Germany...
>
>You people are simply amazing.

	You forgot to, or purposely omitted the column, the wire mesh
cage, the opening of the cans, the gas masks, all the doctors standing
around the hole, sweeping up the pellets that would by that time still
have at least 50% of the HCN in them and an other conditions set down
by the Holocaust story. You focused on 1 thing out of many. You are
corrupt. 

>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 56592 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist FAQ (1) (Repost)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:52:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <320e0f94.5338270@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>
># It is a fact that nowhere the cremation take less than 1
># our 1/4 to 1 hour  1/2 for a normal body. Nowhere in the
># world to my knowledge.
>
>Excerpted from http://www.cremation.org:
>
> "A. The temperature at which cremations are done vary based
>upon the retort manufacturer, but most machines operate between 
>1,500 to 1,900 degrees F. The actual cremation time again varies 
>depending upon the type of machine. Low capacity retorts
>take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation while high 
>capacity machines take less than one hour. In addition to the 


	"High capacity" machines? How big. What kind of technology? How
many - "high capacity?
 
>type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of 
>cremations conducted during the day also affect the time. 
>For example, in the retort we operate, the first cremation of 
>the day takes about two hours and the second takes about an hour. 

	"For example, in the retort we operate, ..."
What kind is that? "First cremation ..." How many.
Either way, Mr.Keren, one hour for a cremation is nothing like the 4
bodies every 15 minutes for German cremation retorts.
	Four per 15 minutes = 16 an hour, in 1944, as opposed to one body
in 1 hour, in modern day technology.

>Now bear in mind that this is current, commercial cremation,
>where great care is taken. In Auschwitz it was a different story.

	"... where great care is taken ..." Mr.Keren says. Does he show
any details to show all this in comparison to the German procedures?
The "different story"? Does he try to show how all this would
compensate for the great disparity in rates, which are 16 to 1? No, he
doesn't. Will he? He'll try something.

>Re the Topf patent, I won't bother responding to your claims. 
>As you people get more and more desperate, you start using 
>arguments which are simply not worth replying to. One has
>to put the limit somewhere.

		Mr.Keren, do the attendants at the institution your staying
at know that you are getting access to their computer?

	16 to 1, Mr.Keren. 16 to 1. 16 to 1. 16 to 1. 16 to 1. Hold it.
This Holocaust source that shows 16 to 1 by the numbers proposed, says
also "far greater" than the numerical values it alleges. "Far
greater"? Lets say 25% more. This would be 20 to 1 Mr.Keren. 20 to 1.
20 to 1. 20 to 1. 20 to 1, Mr.Keren.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 56594 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:53:43 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4uie8k$ibj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> In article <4uhi8c$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>> 
>> >Since the chimneys are back in the news, here they are in all of
>> >their irregular, huge, shadowless glory from the aerial view.
>> >
>> What is interesting here is that Mark Van Alstine did a beautiful
>> reconstruction of what one of these induction things would have looked
>> like in the cross section.  
>
>Why, thank you. 

	But Mr.VanAlstine, Ehrlich went on to say, "The dimensions are
about 23 inches high and 27 inches across.  Furthermore, he alleges
about 17 inches of dirt on the roof of the Krema.  The problem I have
here is twofold:  The aerial photographs show no indication of the
Krema roofs being covered with dirt. Second, neither a height of 23
inches or 6 inches (with the dirt) would conceivably cast the kind of
*shadow* we see in the picture", which means he sees your little
project as conflictinmg with the photographic evidence.

	'Back to the drawing board', Mr.VanAlstine.


>> The dimensions are about 23 inches high and 27 inches across.  
>
>The 70 cm. dimension is an _inside_ dimension. I didn't have an accurate
>cite for the width of the "little chimney." My guess, based on the
>Bauleitung photo, is about 80-100 cm in width. 
>
>> Furthermore, he alleges about 17 inches of dirt on the roof of the
>Krema.  The problem I have here is twofold:  The aerial photographs show
>no indication of the Krema roofs being covered with dirt.
>
>Really? Sure looks like they are covered with something to me....
>Interesting that the roofs of the L.Kellers are the same shade as parts of
>the surrounding Krema yard, yes? Dirt? Turf? Snow? It sure don't look like
>_concrete_, as in a concrete floor, which can be seen in the December 21,
>1944, ariel photo showing the L.Keller 2 partially dismantled and its roof
>removed- exposing the concrete floor. No berm, no roof, and a concrete
>floor that contrasts greatly with the surrounding Krema yard. 
>
>Unlike, for instance, the August 26, 1944, photo. 
>
>>  Second, neither a height of 23 inches or 6 inches (with the dirt) would
>> conceivably cast the kind of *shadow* we see in the picture.
>
>And whay _kind_ of shadow to you think is being cast? Please detail your
>assumptions. 

	"And what kind of shadow ..."? He is probably talking about the
phenomena whereby a object blocks off all or a portion of a light
source to the reverse side of object from the light source.

	What kind of shadows do you know of Mr.VanAlstine? 

>> Such dimensions also have nothing to do with the 3 x 4 foot crates of
>> roofing material in the by now famous photograph.
>
>Nope. But then _your_ (and Mr. Allen's) "3 x 4 foot crates" have nothing
>to do with reality. Certainly not with the L.Kellers.
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 56595 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:54:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
># The problem I have here is twofold:  The aerial
>@ photographs show no indication of the Krema roofs 
># being covered with dirt.
>
>The photograph - at least the copy we have - is not
>of high enough quality to determine this. My feeling
>is that some kind of contrast stretching was applied
>to it (histogram equalization, maybe).

	Maybe you should discuss any other parts of the picture which
have under gone the same distortion to show your stuff doesn't just
apply to the subject of discussion. While your at it, maybe you should
discuss the lack of shadow that seems to be the case. Maybe while at
that too, you should discuss the, explain, the immediate proximate
darker tones.

># Second, neither a height of 23 inches or 6 inches 
># (with the dirt) would conceivably cast the kind of 
># *shadow* we see in the picture.
>
>There is no shadow. It's just a dark region, which looks
>larger than it really was, because of the strong blurring.
>One can easily verify this by examining the gray levels
>in a cross-section of the region. I tried to explain this
>to Giwer, but it is hopeless. His estimate of their
>size is off by a factor of about 3, which, well, is not
>too bad for him.
>
>The dark region is most probably due to a cover - tarpaulin,
>perhaps - on the covers of the chimneys. 

	"Most likely" a tarpolin? You were more correct with your "It's
just a dark region ...". The second half of the sentence "which looks
larger than it really is ..." is only your statement, nothing more. 
	 

># Such dimensions also have nothing to do with the 3 x 4 
># foot crates of roofing material in the by now famous 
># photograph.
>
>You have no idea and no proof whatsoever that they are
>crates of roofing material. You're simply inventing this.
>
>Let me offer an advice: don't try to comment on anything
>technical. This seems to be way out of your element.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 56601 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:58:58 GMT
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	The Holocaust story has it that the Germans systematically
entered into a demolition phase of various crematoriums to cover up
the alleged Holocaust crimes.

	The gassings are said to have ceased in late summer or early fall
1944.

	The only remaining photograph, today, as evidence of this alleged
program is a picture of some collapsed concrete, said to have been
Crema II. This is the only photo presented by the Holocaust
promotional network.

	Yet even the Holocaust story has it that the Germans were engaged
in a general dismantling program of the camp.

	In an Allied aerial photo of the camp, 1/14/45 we can see that
parts of the camp are missing when compared to other Allied aerial
photos.

	A good part of Monowitz (industrial sector) are missing, and
about 8 barracks in the women's camp are either missing or in some
other state than the rest.

	An arrow in the photo points to an empty area where the arrow
caption states "Gas Chamber IV, Destroyed 7 OCT 1944".

	Yet Cremas II, III and V are shown to be intact 1/14/45.

	This would be just days before the Soviet advance would reach the
camp.

	The record of the war would show that Germans would have had to
recognize the inevitable over run by the Allied forces by the date
1/14/45 and even months before that.

	Holocaust facts, and perhaps non-Holocaust facts, have it that
the Germans began to evacuate the camp for the most part weeks before
1/14/45. This would support the notion the Germans had recognized the
inevitable defeat and over running by the advancing Soviet forces.   


	So why hadn't the Germans dismantled the Cremas II, III and V by
1/14/45?

	Why would the Germans have spent so much time on dismantling of
the other sites instead of focusing on the alleged Cremas?

	Considering how the Soviets had set up a Extraordinary Commission
for the study of war crimes from day one of entering the camps, why
did the Soviets not take photos of the alleged Cremas, even in their
razed state? Certainly the Germans would not have had time to clear
the area of all traces. 

	So why are the alleged Cremas shown to be still existing on
1/14/45 in an Allied aerial photo, and why hadn't the Germans razed
them way before knowing that defeat was imminent,  and why didn't the
Soviets take any photographs or present detailed forensic reports
about what was or said to have been while they had the chance of
timely investigation?

	Why?  Because the buildings shown in the Allied aerial photograph
of 1/14/45 weren't Cremas for the mass extermination of human beings,
that's why.	

	 

	 

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Aug 11 17:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 56604 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:54:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	N o h o u i c b t r s i o t s s.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:49 PDT 1996
Article: 56842 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:31:16 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
	From another post:
	
	 "In the New-York Post, 1 july 1991 (p.16) an article from Uri
Dan,journalist of Tel Aviv, say that up to now Israelis authority
were estimating the Jewish Russians to a number between 2 and
3 millions. 'But the Israelis emissaries who can now travel freely
there report that a numer of 5 millions would be more accurate'."
 
	There have been various estimates for the present world Jewish
population appearing in the L.A Times and the N.Y.Times, with the
numbers at 13,000,000, 16,000,000 and 20,000,000.

	Considering such wide discrepancies now, what with considering
Jewish adhesion and our high technology, it is obvious that any
numbers from before and during WW II would be highly suspect.  



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:50 PDT 1996
Article: 56843 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:32:03 GMT
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mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:


>>	Gas chambers employing HCN may be fact, but doing it with pellets
>>is not part of the fact.
>
>Then how did they do it? I'm glad you admit that these Gas Chambers
>exist now.

	Wishful reading comprehension or retention here, Mr.Curtis? 
The record of the discussion shows the focus of the "gas chambers"
mentioned here refer to present day gas chambers, in the U.S.. 
	If you review the record and can show where you may have gotten
the idea the sentence could refer to Holocaust chambers, cut and paste
the sequence.
	As for your question, "Then how did they do it?", which I assume
you mean the Germans with the Holocaust chambers, the answer is, they
didn't, excepting to lice that is.


>Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:51 PDT 1996
Article: 56845 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist FAQ (1) (Repost)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:33:40 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># 16 to 1, Mr.Keren.
>
>Not really. The 15 minutes for 4 corpses is probably an
>underestimate, and most estimates I've seen give a longer
>time.

	I consider anything I read that is presented to sell the
Holocaust story as Holocaust facts. The above figures I used are
Holocaust facts. If you have other Holocaust facts okay.

>What you apparently cannot realize is that, today, a few
>corpses aren't burned in the same furnace, but this is
>out of respect for the dead, and the need to collect
>the ashes of each individual. There were no such
>considerations in Auschwitz.

	The source of the Holocaust facts I am using here also says  4
bodies at a time, if their arms and legs are cut off. Most people
familiar with the details of the Holocaust story, believers and
non-believers, realize the Holocaust facts are multiple bodies per
oven.
	What I realize is that the Holocaust facts have it that 4 bodies
were burnt at one time, that it took 15 minutes, that the summary
numbers given are 1920 bodies a day from six ovens, which shows no
time for cooling is allowed for.
	I also realize that the more bodies you would have per oven would
mean the longer it would take to cremate whatever load it was. 
	Now maybe you can come back and give a conclusion to your little
statement above.

>Plus, in Auschwitz-Birkenau, a high percentage of the 
>victims were children and infants, who weigh very
>little and take up a very little space.

	Suddenly a "high percentage" were children and infants. Do you
say how many? No. The many many photographic facts of people arriving
and interred at the camp show your statement to be untrue, only a
convenience.
	
>The question is, were the 52 cremation furnaces enough
>to burn a great number of corpses daily? The answer is,
>obviously, yes; even if one assumes 12 hours per day
>per furnace, and 2 corpses per hour, that still gives
>52*12*2 = 1,248 corpses per day; and this is a conservative
>estimate, much lower than what the SS had estimated.

	Even if we accept your figures here we have to explain the
disposal of 10,000 a day. It is interesting you are now copping 2
corpses an hour. This would still be 14 bodies an hour less than the
other Holocaust facts, aside from any that might show your quoted
number to be "much lower" than other estimates.

>No one builds so many crematoriums and so many cremation
>furnaces unless he is planning mass murder.

	Not all the ovens were documented, this is only an unfounded
figure and not all would be used for cremating humans.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:52 PDT 1996
Article: 56846 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A revisionist FAQ (1) (Repost)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:36:59 GMT
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mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>
>
>posted and emailed
>
>
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>
>>>I suggest looking at the image files of the Topf
>>>patent submitted shortly after the war. Topf,
>>>remember, is the firm that built the Auschwitz-
>>>Birkenau furnaces.
>>
>>>This is for someone interested in the facts, not
>>>in "revisionist conjectures".
>>
>>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/topf-und-soehne/images
>>
>>>tp4907-lrg-1b.gif (ref)
>>>tp4907-lrg-2.gif (ref)
>>>tp4907-lrg-3.gif (ref)
>>
>>
>>  The main things that can affect the cremation time are:
>>
>>  1) the temperature
>>  2) the air intake (capacity)
>>  3) the volume to cremate
>>
>>  It's interesting here to follow the evolution of the anti-revisionnist
>>arguments in this newsgroup. First, it was claimed before I came here in
>>November and for few months after that the real cremation time in a modern
>>oven was less than an hour. The coffin was supposed to be the main impedment
>>to a quick cremation. Now that this nonsense was drop (apparently), and the
>>majority in front seems to accept a figure of 1 hour 1/2 to 2 hours in an
>>oven. However, we are told that there's a difference between a civilian and
>>a 'military' crematorium.
>
>No, that is not the bone of contention at all. The bone of contention
>is that the care taken in modern methods was NOT used in the
>extermination camps. All comparisons between modern methods and those
>used in the extermination camps is a red herring, a distortion meant
>to decieve. I think you know this.

What "care" would that be, that would account for large discrepancy of
16 to 1 and even "far greater".

>> In Auschwitz-Birkenau, the temperature of operation,
>>as several know here, was about 800 degrees while it is at least 500 degrees
>>more today.

	Which would make the discrepancy even more ridiculous. Think
about it. You have created and stepped into your own doo doo. Your
facts, the chambers of today are much hotter than the Holocaust ovens
and yet the Holocaust ovens could still out pace the newer ones 16 to
1. 
	What effect should your "...as several know here," have on the
reader?

>To account for the coffin? To account for the end result expected by
>the temperature. (This is something the extermination camp methods do
>not give a hang about.)
>
>> The ex-crematory specialist of this newsgroup used often the air
>>intake at Birkenau, but as I said sevral months ago, the air intake for
>>the average crematory in Quebec (2 hours 1/2 for a cremation) is about 25%
>>less than what was existing in Birkenau. Not so big, if we account for the
>>temperature difference.

	What are you saying here? Do you know? The most I can make out of
it is something about crematory in Quebec, air intake and "25% less"
for Holocaust ovens.
	 
>Apples and oranges.

	Apples and oranges are two entirely different fruits. Oranges are
tropical and apples do best when a certain amount of freeze time
occurs, and apple trees lose their leaves in the Autumn. Orange trees
die from frost. 

>>   Nizkor claim in its QAR 42 that several emaciated bodies could be burn
>> more quickly.
>
>To quote sections of QAR 42:
>
>"For example, Legacewould never even consider mixing or 'comingling'
>the ashes of one deceased person with those of another. Legace and the
>IHR [and Jean-Francois Beaulieu] forget that two or three emaciated
>corpses could be inserted into each "muffle." This would, of course,
>never be done in a civilian, commercial establishment.
>   Also, the Auschwitz furnaces were designed to run continuously,
>using the heat generated by the burning of previous bodies to keep the
>oven hot for the next bodies. . . ."
>
>For the complete QAR see http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar42.html
>
>There is nothing in the QAR that suggests several emaciated bodies
>could burn more quickly as Jean-Francois Beaulieu suggests. This is a
>distortion of the text. See the URL above.

	There may be nothing "in the QAR" but there may be Holocaust
facts that do assert more bodies burn faster per time ratio. And
nothing you have given here or anything Nizkor has in it's QAR
explains the 16 to 1 difference. 

>> It is true that an emaciated body take less time
>
>And thus more could fit into a single muffle. 

	The bodies at Auschwitz would not all be emaciated. Photos of
life in the camps does not show emaciated people. In fact, many appear
rather plump. 

>>, the problem,
>> as they know, is that 90% of the victims in the Holocaust story are Jews
>
>Emaciated Jews.
>
>> who were allegedly gased upon arrival, people who were not emaciated.
>>
>
>And your source for their health is?

	Photos galore of life in the camp.

>>   Finally they used an argument which was brought by M.P. Stein, the fact
>> that if you don't cremate totally a body, than it take less time.
>
>Of course it doesn't. Just throw another body over the incomplete
>prior burning. There was nothing to say they couldn't and so they did.

	Which in time we assume the unburnt would accumulate to stress
the burn time for subsequent bodies. Don't you see what a
merry-go-round the Holocaust facts create?

>> There's
>> many problem with this argument. This claim is right, but...
>> Why no post war testimony talk about it? Why do we have stories for which
>> the ashes were spread almost everywhere, in a river, etc.
>
>Because they are not stories and, as an added plus, they come from SS
>and survivors. Imagine that! I'll search the library for details if
>you wish.

	It always has to get back to the eyewitness testimony. Without
eye witness testimony the Holocaust story would never have been.

>> Those stories
>> never mentionned this caracteristic.
>
>What characteristic?
>
>> In such a case, bones would be harder
>> to crunch.
>
>Why? Just burn 'em again.

	Which takes up the crematorium time forbidding any new bodies
while they "burn 'em again". If this is the solution, why not just
burn them more completely the first time?
     What I think we have here is a person who just can't keep track
of what is going on in the discussion, just blurts out whatever his
capacity will allow and ends up raising more contradictions to his own
stuff.

>> Less you cremate, les the bones are friables. I don't know any
>> story neither by the survivors about the use of an acid to remove the car-
>> bonized flesh. Since Nizkor reduce the cremation time from 2 hours to
>> 30 to 45 minutes,
>
>Actually it wasn't Nizkor, Jean-Francois Beaulieu, it was the German's
>themselves and the historical record. Try dealing with the salient
>facts and not with groups who present salient facts.
>
>> we could expect a lot of human remains.
>
>Where?
>
>> The construction
>> of crematorias, an expensive operation, has a specific purpose: reducing
>> completelly the body,
>
>Who says it didn't eventually? You?
>
>> a thing that can't be obtain with as much efficiency
>> if you burn bodies with wood and gasoline. Also, it is possible with such
>> a method to collect the ashes individually, a thing you can't do when you
>> burn several bodies together.
>
>They didn't want to! Straw man building?
>
>> If one want just to burn partially bodies
>> to avoid epidemies than it is more economical to do it with gazoline and
>> wood: no breakdown that can slow down the extermination process also.
>
>Who says that it did. When, in fact, there were breakdowns. Hence see 
>http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar41.html
>
>> One photo was reproduced in Pressac's book 'Les crematoires d'Auschwitz'
>> page 97. It is the picture of a Buchenwald oven, right after the liberation
>> of the camp in 1945. Buchenwald wasn't an 'extermination camp',
>
>It was a death camp, however.
>
>See _The Buchenwald Report_ Translated by David Hackett, Westview,
>1995.

	Here the discussion is on Auschwitz and he goes to the
"Buchenwald Report" which that camp is acknowledged by all as never
having been a "death camp".

>>but with
>> the fuel shortage and the necessity to proceed efficiently, we have a
>> similar situation. The photo show some bones, white, no flesh around.

	A photo with "some bones" to prove hundreds of thousands died.

>This seems to be a different camp. Shall we discuss how Buchenwald was
>liberated and why there are remains there in a certain form or shall
>we discuss the fact that the Germans cleaned up much at Auschwitz
>before they bugged out?
>
>> There's ashes on a corner, but the bones are definitivelly white and the
>> Nazis knew perfectly that they had to cremate normally to dispose the
>> remaining, ie crunching the bones.
>>
>
>Who says? You?

	This person is like a little boy. A mind of a child.

>>  I've not look at those pictures, but I've a pretty good idea of what
>> I will find:
>
>You're psychic now, too?
>
>> I know your usual arguments.
>
>I guess so!
>
>> Now, what you show us, Mr. Keren, is a patent. I've few things to add
>>   on that.
>> 1) If a patent claim 30 minutes in 1951, does it mean that the authors
>>   did an innovation that was never done before?
>
>What's your guess? What was the patent for and how was the item to be
>used?
>
>> 2) Why weren't you able to find in any trial against revisionist, or else-
>>  where, with the huge means that you have, a place in the world where the
>>  cremation time take 30 minutes. Does it mean that the patent was too optimis
>>  tic?
>
>This is to be contained in a trial against a revisionist? I'm
>confused.
>
>> 3) 30 minutes for a normal corpse or a baby?
>>
>
>When, where and how? A baby stuffed in with a couple of other bodies
>wouldn't matter much, now would it, sir?
>
>>   It is a fact that nowhere the cremation take less than 1 our 1/4 to 1 hour
>> 1/2 for a normal body.
>
>Under modern laws and conditions is a fact you have left out.
>
>> Nowhere in the world to my knowledge. It could be
>> done, yes:
>
>It was done at Auschwitz to name one place. Are you always tis obtuse?
>
>> if we rise up the temperature, if we boost drastically the oxygen
>> intake, but then we face other problems. It's not so easy. The average time
>> is 2 hours. If we want to improve the efficiency, than we have to deal with
>> physical factors.
>>
>
>Says you using modern concerns which are apples and oranges when it
>comes to the methods used and described by SS and survivors at
>Auschwitz.
>
>[snipped patent nonsense]
>
>
>Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:53 PDT 1996
Article: 56847 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:37:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <320f337f.626859@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <320c8ca2.563475@news.pacificnet.net> <4uju8p$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
># The self proclaimed PhD mathematician 
>
>My Ph.D is in computer science, as I have said a few times.
>
># has not posted one
># calculation since I have been here this time.  
>
>Yes I did.
>
># I would think by now it is clear this person has not the
># slightest concept of math.
>
>I understand your anger and frustration. I understand your
>inferiority complex. I realize that you are a loser; your
>life is behind you. 
>
>Why would a genius such as yourself retire at the age of
>46. One really wonders at that.
>
>You take pride at being an engineer, as I recall. I have
>a (rather subjective, I admit) definition of what a 
>good engineer is: someone who really understands the
>concept of a derivative. Most engineers don't. I don't 
>believe you do.
>
>So, you seek revenge by saying that I don't know anything
>about math. Fine. That's your right.
>
>Since what we're discussing here is fitting data, you may
>want to look at my paper about this, presented at the 
>1995 conference on maximum entropy and Bayesian methods, 
>before you pass judgement on my mathematical skills. I 
>guess that computing integrals over infinite-dimensional 
>Hilbert spaces and stuff like that is child's play for you, 
>so there should be no difficulties?
>
>I'd be happy to send you a postscript file of the paper.
>Just let me know.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
	Wow, what a lashing. It starts off with Giwer claiming Mr.Keren
has not made one mathematical statement out here. This might be true.
But maybe Giwer didn't know that Mr.Keren will most definitely respond
to a mathematical statement, in his own way. He may come out and
respond to a mathematical statement by saying something like it's
"Moronic mathematics" or 'you don't know what your talking about'. His
favorite method of responding to a post that cites numerical figures
is by making a correction with statements like, "somewhat more than"
or, "a bit longer", or "a little less", all depending on what suits
the Holocaust story of course.
	

>-- 
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 07:54:53 PDT 1996
Article: 56850 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:10:16 GMT
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mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>
>>Moran:
>>>>	And as Ehrich's post shows, with more direct approach than
>>>>Mr.Keren and company's tactics of referring people to some "images"
>>>>written in German, the product Zyklon B would have been a poor choice
>>>>since only 12.5%, at the most, of the product would have been used
>>>>with 87.5%, at the least, being un-necessary, wasted, left over to
>>>>complicate the unloading of the chambers and disposing of the left
>>>>over 87.5%.

>>Curtis:
>>>Golly, who said it took the whole thing to kill?

>>Moran:
>>	Now if we should use the 5 minute figure that the Holocaust story

>Which Holocaust "story", Moran? Which testimony or historical record
>are you using here? Who said 5 minutes and in what context was this
>used?

	I find it amusing Mr.Curtis should ask "Which Holocaust story".
There are many, if we should take all the different testimonies and
piece them together to try to make them none contradictory.
	As to your above and following repeated requests for my source of
the figures, "Communique of the Polish-Russian Extraordinary
Commission for Investigating the Crimes Committed by Germans in the
Majdanek Extermination Camp in Lublin".
	(Nizkor > FTP > camps > maidenek > maidenek .004)

>>sometimes has for the time to kill people with Zyklon B,

>Where was this? How many people? Who describing what they saw or were
>familiar with?

>> and we used
>>the study's figure of 80 to 90 percent HCN released in about 9 hours,

>What study? Why should it be necessary to release 80 to 90 percent to
>kill human beings? Who says 9 hours and what difference does this make
>in the murder of human beings?

	The study of this lead article here. How is you have to be told?

>>we might get the idea that maybe only .000001% would be used for the
>>extermination process, the rest remaining, not used, left over.


>You "might get the idea?" From what? Who says it only took .000001% to
>kill a crowd of 1000 people? You also realize that they didn't just
>toss in one (1) pellet. They threw in a bunch. You seem to be making
>these numbers up as you go along.

	The above figure I used only as a optional figure for your
previous post. I hold to the 1 1/2 to 2 hour rate. The figures used
here come from the information of the post as was stated. Why do you
have to be told? Whether or not they threw in one pellet or a million,
the release rate is the release rate is the release rate. Obviously
you are not capable of grasping the relationship.

>>	The simple mathematics shows, giving the Holocaust story

>Which "story? "

	You mean 'Which Holocaust story' again, don't you?
It does say "Holocaust story" is that not right?

>> all the
>>benefits of accomodation of the numbers used, that 87% would be
>>unused.

>Who says so? More importantly, if it is true, why would it matter. It
>appears that they didn't need all of the stuff to kill people. The
>Germans seemed to have managed quite well.

	I have given the optimum accommodation to arrive at the 87.5% not
used. It shows that Zyklon B would have been a poor choice for the
purpose on a product efficiency basis.

>> Thus by any sense of efficiency, we have to recognize that the
>>product would be a ridiculous choice for mass extermiantion.

	Oh, I see it says it right here.

>It was cheap, available, and efficient enough to do in about 1 million
>innocent folks. 

	Prove it.

>>	My appreciation to Mr.Curtis, for giving the opportunity to post
>>this summary in response.


>Hey, any time you want to make a total fool of yourself is absolutely
>fine with me. I'm always happy to oblige. You can answer the questions
>I've asked above. That way we might be working with substance rather
>than stories made up by Mr. Moran.


>Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com

>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 13:06:01 PDT 1996
Article: 56857 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's Lies About My Articles (Re: A revisionist FA
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:00:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <320f46ff.5618662@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>  
>>  	The difference between me and the huggers is that, I could care less
>>  if you post against me.  If you post against the huggers you will be
>>  called a neo-nazi at best and it is all downhill from there as to what
>>  you will be called.  
>
>
>	Another difference is that you are a criminal.

	Does Mr.Edeiken say what kind of "criminal"?

>	--YFE
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 13:06:02 PDT 1996
Article: 56862 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's Lies About My Articles (Re: A revisionist FA
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:59:08 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <320f4566.5209526@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4u3b1k$hq2@Vir.com> <4uh1n8$1le@Vir.com> <320e06f7.13579837@news.inetport.com> <4uld7l$p2k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
># Of course we all agree, now that Keren has sworn to it, 
># that modern methods are 16 times slower than the method that
># used Nazi physics.  
>
>I haven't. You're a liar.
>
>One can accept when a blatant misquote like this happens
>once, or twice. With you, it's a rule.
>
>The only conclusion: you're lying intentionally. You're a
>lying piece of scum.
>
>Don't ever believe what this person writes. He's a pathological
>liar. When confronted with this fact, he doesn't even try to
>defend himself, or deny it. 
>
>Anyone willing to believe his crap about his father being
>ill after the phone call allegedly made to him? Anyone
>willing to believe one single thing this piece of dreck
>is posting? He probably invented this crap, to gather sympathy.
>
>Show us the tube that was allegedly shoved up your dad's nose, 
>Giwer. Then we may believe you. Maybe.
>
>Didn't the piece of dreck claim to have a daughter, and
>later posted that he doesn't have one at all?
>
>Who can believe anything the dreck posts?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	Mr.Keren, simply stating someone is a liar doesn't hit it.
Documentation to prove the charges is what the intelligent world would
require. Bringing up subjects not related to the immediate points
being discussed is a subterfuge. You have record of subterfuge. If any
record is out here for lies and/or supidity it is found under your
name. 

>-- 
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 13:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 56864 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony From Barbie Trial
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:41:41 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:


>Elias Nahmias, testified that he was sent to Auschwitz and other Nazi 
>camps. 
>"As soon as we got to Auschwitz, the children were sent to the gas 
>chamber. But first we had to get out of our cars. If you have seen a 
>seal hunt, you know what it was like.They literally bludgeoned us out, 
>and we had to drag the corpses out as well. Then they prodded us in 
>line with the handle of a pickaxe...I was lucky enough to be the last 
>one to be left. They spared me, only me. The rest of the convoy was 
>murdered that very same day. It's incredible. I don't even know how I 
>can utter such things, they are so far beyound human understanding...

                    ----------------------------
>"I would like to add one more thing. Often I hear the most disgusting 
>things. People who say gas chambers never existed. In Dachau, the 
>crematory ovens worked like a factory; as efficiently and with as 
>little feeling.. When I was there, at least two thousand people were 
>gassed and then burnt every day.
                    ----------------------------

Dachau was in Germany. 

	Simon Wiesenthal Center > "Responses to Revisionist Arguments"

No.12.
	"Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself state that there were no
extermination camps in Germany?"

	Simon Wiesenthal answer:

	"The Nazis classified their many hundreds of concentration camps
on their basis of their primary function. In a very real sense, all
were death camps because the death of inmates, ...
	Those sites, however, which functioned as extermination centers
(Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec, and
Chelmno), were especially equipped for the gassing of hundreds of
thousands of victims each (millions altogether). All the camps were
located in Poland ...", - which means 'No', there were no
extermination camps in Germany.

	Okay Chuck, it's your turn.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 12 13:06:04 PDT 1996
Article: 56867 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren, the latter day Einstein
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:20:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4umujo$94q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>         refuses to apply his great math talents explaining the eyewitness
>> reports of death by HCN in 10-15 minutes and by CO in 15-20 minutes.
>> 
>>         Why does he refuse to do this?  
> 
>Probably because you're a lying troll and Dr. Keren has better things to
>do with his time.
> 
>Mayve if YOU answered some of the questions put to YOU, Mr. Giwer, others
>might be more willing to answer YOUR questions.
> 
>Like... Where was the Cambodian Embassy in Washington during the Vietnam War?
> 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"It's always nice to see a prejudice overruled by a deeper prejudice."
>    John Sayles, _Lone Star_

	Sara, about this statement above. When I see all those persistent
columns, letters to the editor by Jews about the evil Arabs and
Palestinians, could I apply the above quote to those?  


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 13 11:40:50 PDT 1996
Article: 57111 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph - zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:04:06 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
># But what I saw were indications about the behavior of
># Zyklon at below zero temps over 48 and 24 hour periods.
>
>I am somewhat surprised to see this. You know very well
>that the issue was the amount of HCN in the air during
>24-48 hours, and that the paper explicitly said it
>had completely evaporated from the Zyklon after at
>most two hours.
>
># No, Rudolf is clearly describing diagreiss (gypsum and
># diatomite) and nothing else.
>
>But WE are talking about the Erco carrier which was used
>for gassing! So you're saying nothing was added to it, to
>slow the release of the HCN from it.

	The topic is Zyklon B. Zyklon B in 1943 and 1945. The stuff that
was designed for slower release. The stuff that had a release rate of
somewhere around 100% in 1 1/2 and 2 hours. The stuff that, going by
Holocuast times, would still have 87.5% of the HCN left in it after
the deed. 

># Indeed, neither Rudolf nor Lueftl has ever claimed that
># 10 minutes was not a sufficient time for a sufficient 
># outgassing to kill everyone.

	I have yet to see a revisionist of record state that HCN can't
kill anyone. The point is that it would have been a nonsensical thing
to use in that 87.5% would be left over after the fact. This number is
giving the Holocaust story the benefit of the less absurd numbers.
Using the optional Holocaust numbers, the amount left over would be
92.5%.

>No, only Matt "dreck" Giwer is stupid enough to claim this.
>The others are stupid, but not *that* stupid.

	But then the discussion was on Rudolph. 
Your the only one out here with the record of stupidity.	

>As I recall, Rudolph claims the victims could catch the
>pellets *and throw them back out* at the SS-men. He does
>say that, right?

>Is there no limit to human stupidity? How stupid can these
>Nazi apologists be?

	As I recall your the one who kept asking "What floor?" would the
flues run under from the alleged ovens at the center of a
extermination building to the chimney out side.

	Your the one, a "PhD", that resorts to the baby talk. Your the
one that would be reluctant to show any of your postings to any of
your collegues. Post their names and we'll get in touch and ask them
to participate.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 13 11:40:51 PDT 1996
Article: 57112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:05:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <32108b52.588686@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
># Now I do not understand you.  There are _several_ aerial 
># photographs of Auschwitz in the summer of 1944.  All of 
># these show the Kremas as clearly outlined.
>
>Now, what does that have to do with my speculation that
>contrast stretching was applied to the August 1944 photo,
>I really don't know. Perhaps you don't know what contrast
>stretching is - no sweat, ask and I'll explain.
>
># I have only studied in detail one of the several 
># photographs.  But the argument for strong blurring 
># doesn't explain why the shadow of the chimney is 
># quite distinct.
>
>Use any viewer that can tell you the gray levels of
>individual pixels (I'm using xv on a workstation, but
>every decent viewer can do this). Look at cross-sections
>passing through bright and dark areas (say, the shadow
>of the Krema and bright area next to it, or the dark
>patches on the roof and the bright roof). You'll see
>that the transition from bright to dark areas is
>rather gradual. For instance, for one of the dark spots
>we have the following gray level sequence (all y
>coordinates are 291):
>
>Pixel    Gray Level
>-----    ----------
>316        147
>317        130
>318        114
>319        105
>320        110
>321        111
>322        119
>323        137
>324        158
>325        175
>
>
>This indicates a strong blur. Naturally, it has a larger
>affect on the apparent size of small objects (such as the 
>covers on the vents) than large objects (Krema's shadow).
>
>This is what's causing you to err in estimating the
>true size of the covers.

	To anyone following this, just take a look at the photograph and
see if it absolutely or even remotely shows what this person would
have you think is. Its that simple without all his additional stuff to
make it look like he is presenting some heavy scientific basis behind
his sales job. This person, in this thread, states the subjects are
tarpaulins, which if they were wouldn't account for the blurry
blobnous of the alleged introduction openings. 
	This person might try to come out and say the introduction ports
had caps and everything was at ground level to account for the lack of
distinct shadows that can be seen with other objects in the photo,
which would be off the wall. Any introduction systems would be flanged
and raised above the surface to keep water from getting in.
	What the photo shows is what it shows. Blurry blobs.
	It doesn't matter what this person says with all his fakery,
anyone that looks at the photos will see what is there, blurry blobs.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 13 11:40:52 PDT 1996
Article: 57113 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:10:58 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>Indeed. However, Zyklon B was also used at Maidanek. (cf. _Nazi Mass
>Murder_, p.175.) 

>Or, like at Maidanek, _both_ C02 and Zyklon B were chosen as homicidal agents. 

	And also benzine engines. The terms used to discribe the physical
evidence said to have been found in regard to CO cannisters was
"several". The physical evidence for the Zyklon B was about 500 cans
were found. They imply from this it was for exterminating humans but
we all know that the product was used at the camps for fumigation
purposes, which they didn't prove the product was used for
exterminating humans excepting of course by some eyewitness accounts.
	
The Extraordinary Commission that did the report did not do any
forensic test on any chambers.

The same report claims "600,000" people were killed and cremated in
nearby woods and later says they dug some probes and found "a quantity
of bone and ash".

This camp is said to have been over run by the Soviet army while it
was in operation. Nizkor presents one photo of a few bones in a pit
with a building in the background said to have been a gas chamber. The
pit is said to have been a place where hundreds of thousands were
burned. We might think if there were more photos we would be seeing
them. We must recognize that Nizkor and the rest of the Holocaust
promotional network must present some photos even though they tend to
discredit the story, and thus we recognize whatever they present is
the best they have. 

This same report is the one that says 4 people could be cremated in
one oven in 15 minutes, that the bodies had their arms and legs cut
off to get them in, that the bodies were not completely burned, the
bones being taken out and crushed, which would have mede it easier to
find in any investigation than if they were completely reduced to ash.
This same report says that most of the remains were mixed with dung
and compost piles and spread around in vegetable gardens. 

	
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 13 11:40:52 PDT 1996
Article: 57115 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust extermination claims
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:16:24 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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References: <199608102334.QAA20921@mercury.uniserve.com> <320D89B5.A14@kaiwan.com> <4uni7c$qqt@lal.interserv.com> <32100E8E.AB4@kaiwan.com>
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Greg Raven  wrote:

>Ken Lewis wrote:
>> 
>> In article <320D89B5.A14@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com says...
>> 
>> >For over 15 years, articles in The Journal of Historical Review have
>> >done just this, along with other materials that express the revisionist
>> 
>> Well, 15 years minus their time spent in litigation.

	litigation brought by people who want others to accept lies.

>Litigation has nothing to do with it. The Journal of Historical Review
>was first published in 1980, and it still being published to this day.

	
	

>-- 
>Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
>PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 13 11:40:53 PDT 1996
Article: 57116 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Does His Little Goebbels Schtick
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:20:58 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>
>
> From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 16:26:10 EDT 1996
> Article: 81079 of alt.revisionism
> Xref: world alt.revisionism:81079 
> From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Hebrew Huggems
> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:26:28 GMT
> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
> Lines: 7
> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-17.pacificnet.net
> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141
>
>
>        Keep an eye out for these Hebrew characteristics.
>Hebrews have a problem with controlling their body language. 
>They either jam their hands deep into their pockets or fold their arms
>in front of them in a self hugging stance, to keep their hands from
>flailing about. They also shuffle in place.
>        Ah yes the huggems, the Larry King syndrome.
>
>

>-Danny Keren.

	Thanks for the repost.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 13 14:18:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57124 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Extraordinary Absence
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:22:51 GMT
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	As the Holocaust facts and the more reliable non-Holocaust facts
have it, the Soviets set up investigating commissions to document the
crimes of the Germans in extermination camps. As text in the book
"Auschwitz: A History in Photographs" puts it, "The day after the
liberation, a special Soviet commission began to investigate the
crimes committed there and gather documentary evidence".

	At the heading of another Holocaust story account, presented in
Nizkor files, "FTP > camps > maidenek > maidenek .004", the copy of
the report is titled, "THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR
THE INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK
EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN".

	From this we might expect the Soviets did similar investigations
at other camps, and we might think any reports fell under the title of
"The Polish/Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating the
Crimes Committed by the Germans" with a further identification
associated with the particular camp being reported on as with the
above.

	We recognize that the two reports mentioned both state the
Commissions were there at the time of liberation.

	We have to recognize they had opportunity for timely
investigation. We would expect that photography would be the number
one method of documentation, with any forensic test like chemical
analysis as another and archeological reconstruction as another as to
any ruins.

	One should think that any reports from these "Extraordinary
Commission(s)" would be valuable evidence for the truth of the
Holocaust story. 

	For some reason the Holocaust promotional network does not employ
these documents in their extensive onslaught of promoting the story.
Very little reference is made towards them in Holocaust books and the
first time I ever saw one with any actual report and not just referred
to, was in Nizkor files.

	In fact this particular document is one said to have been found
in the Hoover War Library, and is said to be in a 4 inch by 6 inch
format, which we might think is some kind of pamphlet. It refers to
itself as a "communique".

	When studying the validity of the Holocaust it soon becomes
evident that for the very most part the story is founded on eyewitness
testimony, with very little reference to any forensic studies. 

	There are many problems and questions with the report by the
Polish/Soviet Commission. Seems everything in it can raise a question
about something else. This one is dated 1944, yet it refers to
findings at Auschwitz which wasn't taken by the Soviets until 1945.

	The report also utilizes eyewitness testimony almost exclusively
compared to any physical forensic studies it says the Commission made.
A number of times the report will allude to some forensic study and
then confirm and expand on it with eyewitness testimony.
     The testimonies in this report all have something in common in
that they all give isolated exact dates for various incidents that
change little except the numbers, with not one of them able to give a
chronicle of the camp over an extended period of time.

	Just for a quick sampler of the nature of the related eyewitness
testimonies found on just two pages but exemplifying the rest in the
27 page "communique":

	 "The witness Zelent quoted the case of the asphyxiation by
means of gas of eighty-seven Poles on March 15, 1944.

        Another witness, Jan Wolski, a Pole, formerly a prisoner at
the camp, testified to the wholesale asphyxiation of people with gas.
        "In October 1942," he stated, "a large number of women and
children were brought to the camp.  The healthy ones were picked out
for work, ..."

In March l943, another two hundred and fifty women and children were
exterminated in the same chamber ... On May 16, or 17, 1943, one
hundred and fifty-eight children of ages ranging from two to ten were
brought to the camp in motor trucks... In June 1943, the camp
administration collected all the sick prisoners of war and civilian
prisoners ...

        Evidence concerning the wholesale asphyxiation of people by
means of gases was given at the meeting of the Commission by German SS
men who had served in the camp.

        Rottenfuhrer SS Hensche stated that on September 15, 1942,
three hundred and fifty persons including women and children, were put
to death in the gas chambers.

        Oberscharfuehrer SS Terner informed the Commission of the case
which occurred on October 16, 1943, of the asphyxiation in gas
chambers of five hundred persons, including many women and children.
        The selection of people to be put to death by asphyxiation was
systematically made by the German camp doctors Blanke and Rindfleisch.

        The aforesaid Ternes stated:
        "In the evening of October 21, 1943, camp doctor
Untersturmfuehrer SS Rindfleisch told me that day three hundred
children of ages ranging from three to ten were asphyxiated in the gas
chamber with the substance 'Cyklon'."

        German prisoner of war, Rottensfuehrer SS Theodor Schollen,
who served in the camp, stated:
        "I often saw this machine with trailers going to and fro
between the gas chambers and the crematorium.  It came from the gas
chamber loaded with corpses and went back empty."

	The most ridiculous testimony is one given by a Polish prisoner
that claims:
	"On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons
were shot in the camp.  Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp
prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from
the city and from other camps.  Three days before this wholesale
shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp,
behind the crematorium.  The shooting began in the morning and ended
late at night.  The people were stripped naked.  The SS men led them
to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to
lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with
automatic rifles.  On top of the corpses another row of living persons
was laid and these were also shot.  This went on until the trench was
filled.  The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth.
Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the
crematorium and on bonfires."
	In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the
shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed
loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp,
and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music.
        This wholesale shooting became widely known among the
inhabitants of Lublin."

	Another common denominator between testimonies is the non-common
denominator of none of them collaborating another. They all have their
own little details.

	Holocaust dependents might argue that these testimonies are only
extracts of more complete testimony, yet will we ever have access to
the full record? Is there a full record? 


	To get an idea of how ridiculous the technical studies were, we
can take note of, "The Committee of Technical Experts which carefully
examined construction of the furnaces found as follows:"
	"The furnaces were intended for the purpose of incinerating
corpses and were calculated to work continuously. Each furnace was
capable of holding four corpses at a time if the extremities were cut
off. The time to incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes, which
working day and night, made it possible to incinerate one thousand
nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty four hours. Judging by the
large quantity of bones discovered in all parts of the camp (in pits,
vegetable plots and under manure heaps), the Committee of Experts is
of the opinion that bones were removed from the furnace before the
time necessary for their complete incineration had expired, as a
consequence of the which the number of corpses incinerated in the
twenty four hours was far larger than one thousand nine hundred and
twenty." 

	The report states there were 5 furnaces installed at Majdanek.
Five times 16 = 80, the number of corpses that could be cremated in
each furnace, 80 times 24 hours = 1920. We have to recognize this
would mean that whatever remains were left in the chambers when
unloading were taken out and immediately new chopped up corpses were
put in, with no cool down time whatsoever and the mathematics allowing
no time for the process. The report says that the remains were taken
out before the process took the corpses to ashes, and says this would
make it possible to cremate a "far larger" number than the 1920. In
this case we can't make a exact calculation because of the indefinite
"far larger". Sounds pretty significant. We start off with the
original figure 1920 so maybe conservatively we might say 200 more
would constitute "far larger".
	Whatever the figure, the more "far larger" the more it would
necessitate a faster cremation rate, even to the charred stage, which
would require each 15 minute load to be even shorter, and the 15
minute claim is ridiculous enough, even for burning bodies part way.
We don't want to forget we are talking about four bodies for each
load. We have to recognize the physics of time also. It would not be
possible, using non-Holocaust physics, to go from one load to another

without a time period that would have to be accounted for. This would
include, opening the doors to the furnaces, removing whatever remains
there were under the conditions of the radiating inferno of heat and
the introduction of new bodies. What with the "far larger" number
reducing the time of 15 minutes for each four bodies and the unloading
of remains and introduction of new ones, the time might be more like
ten minutes cremation time per load. 
	Expert testimony today states that it takes from 1 1/2 to 2 hours
to cremate just one body to ashes. 	
	
	So here we have a sampling of the this 27 page, 4" by 6"
"communique", that someone found in the Hoover War Library after they
"came across" a reference to it.

	We can accept as fact that there were Extraordinary Commissions
performed by the Soviet and Polish governments. From this we should
assume the full record was archived someplace. We should also assume
the records should contain massive confirmations for the truth of the
Holocaust story, at least from the view point of the Holocaust
dependents.
     From this we should ask, if these findings of the Commissions,
that were created from day one of liberation of camps, some of them
actually overtaking the camps while they were fully intact and should
have the most hardy record of mass extermination, why doesn't the
Holocaust promotional network, which has put extensive energy into
selling the story, utilize the findings of these Extraordinary
Commissions as part of the sales package?   	
 
	The reason should be pretty clear from what we can deduce from
this report. Because they are so utterly absurd, even more absurd than
the utterly absurd evidence readily given by the Holocaust dependents
in their publications at this time.

	Will anyone ever have access to checking out the full reports of
these Extraordinary Commissions? The full particulars of the forensic
studies and eyewitness testimonies? Will the Holocaust promotional
network ever present the full particulars to the Extraordinary
Commissions?

	No.   		  


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 13 23:12:32 PDT 1996
Article: 57191 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony From Barbie Trial
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:59:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <321108af.9156931@news.pacificnet.net>
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:


>>         Okay Chuck, it's your turn.
>
>Okay, Tom, that's my turn. You are just doing your usual tap dancing. 
>You deniers use Wiesenthal as an accurate source when it suits your 
>purpose, but call him a "Jew Liar," when that suits your purpose.
>
>Chuck

	OKay, Moran had his say and Chuck had his counter say.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 13 23:12:33 PDT 1996
Article: 57192 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony From Barbie Trial
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 22:59:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>I have spoken personally with Simon Wiesenthal on more than one
>occassion. He has some harsh words to say about the Museum which
>used to be named after him. Not call that anymore. He is no way
>connected to that museum.

	Chuck, this is very interesting. Is this sort of like a expose'?
Should I post something like:

		         NEWS FLASH

	Simon Wiesenthal hates Museum of Tolerance.

	Chuck, do you think if someone has "harsh" words for something
they are committing an act of 'hate'? Like someone who has harsh words
against the Holocaust story or harsh words against Israel.

	Could you be saying that Simon Wiesenthal commits hate crimes
against the Museum of Intolerance?

	Chuck. Answer your telephone. I think it's Simon Wiesnthal. I
think he has some harsh words for you.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug 14 12:16:34 PDT 1996
Article: 57300 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph - zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:11:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># The topic is Zyklon B. Zyklon B in 1943 and 1945. 
>
>So far so good.
>
># The stuff that was designed for slower release. 
>
>No it was not.
>
># The stuff that had a release rate of somewhere around 100% in 
># 1 1/2 and 2 hours. 
>
>This is better than your "perhaps months" estimate of the past.

	I take it you are trying to sell the notion that I had stated
"perhaps months" as a conclusion I held as to the release rate of
Zyklon B. 
	I see you have just posted "perhaps months" as the proof.
	Of course, "perhaps months" is all you have posted.
	Why is that? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug 14 12:16:35 PDT 1996
Article: 57301 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:23:21 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>On 12 Aug 1996 06:13:07 -0400, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>><< Subject:	Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
>>From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>Date:	Sat, 10 Aug 1996 22:11:12 GMT
>
>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
>># The problem I have here is twofold:  The aerial
>>@ photographs show no indication of the Krema roofs 
>># being covered with dirt.
>
>>The photograph - at least the copy we have - is not
>>of high enough quality to determine this. My feeling
>>is that some kind of contrast stretching was applied
>>to it (histogram equalization, maybe).
>
>	Unless you have access to something other than Nizkor, what we have is
>as follows.  A film negative chosen for the best performance for
>aerial surveillance pictures.  Then we have the type of development
>chosen as best for such pictures.  Then we have a halftone image
>created for a book.  Finally we have a scan by someone of unknow skill
>in making a good scan.  
>
>	If I have to state the obvious, the only way to seriously deal with
>the picture is to 
>
>	1)	get the negative
>
>	2)	get the characteristics of the film
>
>	3)	make a neutral scan at greater than the grain size.   
>
>	Without these three it is good only for gross analysis.  

	Intentionally making photos obscure is a common practice of the
Holocaust dependents. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug 14 13:39:11 PDT 1996
Article: 57305 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Holocaust Revisionism
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:46:19 GMT
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	"The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two
million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same
six million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A
person who denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the
Holocaust itself".
	
	David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League of Human Rights" of
the B'nai B'rith, Canada.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug 14 13:39:12 PDT 1996
Article: 57306 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:51:39 GMT
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Question:
	The reason the Jews are so obsessed with bellowing the Holocaust
story is:

	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
money. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 15:49:34 PDT 1996
Article: 57586 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Deniers:  playing with numbers or playing with themselves?
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:54:56 GMT
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patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 8/10/96 at 16:19, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: 
>
>>On 8/9/96 at 10:18, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote: 
>>
>>[snip]
>>>
>>>Fact: Around 1989, leading historians of the Holocaust revised downward
>>>their totals for Auschwitz Birkenau.  Fact:  Around 1990, the Polish
>>>government reduced the claimed death toll for AB from 4 million to about 1
>>>million.  Fact:  The source of the 4 million number is clearly USSR-8, the
>>>Soviet Special Commission on Auschwitz, which based its totals on totally
>>>arbitrary cremation statistics for the camp.  Fact: This document was
>>>given judicial notice at Nuremberg.
>
>Leading Holocaust historians have disputed the 4 million figure almost 
>from the outset.  Perhaps that's one reason they're the leading 
>historians.
>
>Again, your statement is at variance with Hilberg & Reitlinger, who 
>are, after all, the leading Holocaust historians.

	These two are always the same ones cited as examples to show the
Jews were the first to admit to a lower number when in fact there are
scores of others who have stated much higher figures, even unto the 4
million and beyond. 

	'Oh, look. There's two grains of black sand on the beach among
the myriad of otherwise white grains, therefore the beach is black."

	That's what the record shows.
	

>>>It seems obvious to me that the 4 million number was cooked in the first
>>>place.  Since the cooking was done by the Soviet Union, the same source,
>>>by the way, of a forged ID card for John Demjanjuk, it follows that there
>>>has indeed been deception on some matters concerning the Holocaust.
>>
>>
>>Hilberg & Reitlinger (to mention two) never accepted the 4 million 
>>figure.  Hilberg's figures have been posted several times before.  Need 
>>I post them again, or will you "give judicial notice" of them, and 
>>agree that your statement was in error?
>
>It should also be noted that, while many others have stated 4 million 
>or zero, Hilberg & Reitlinger remain the foremost authorities on 
>Holocaust, and when their figures collide with the figures of others, 
>it should be the others whose figures be held suspect, not those of 
>Messrs Hilberg & Reitlinger.
>
>
>Perhaps repetition of the truth will work where simple explanation does 
>not.
>
>
>
>----------



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 15:49:35 PDT 1996
Article: 57587 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Peters on Outgassing, 1941 Version
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:56:26 GMT
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abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>Mr. Ehrlich amuses me again by attempting to disprove the holocaust. In this
>case by falsely translating a German source. The reader will please remember
>that the great linguist who tries to dissect the original source has already shown
>his extensive knowledge of  the German language by mistaking "manchmal"
>(sometimes) for "oft" (often).
>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>[...]
>>The crucial text reads as follows:  *In allen Faellen is der wesentlichste
>>Teil der Gasentwicklung nach einer order hoechstens nach zwei Stunden
>>vollzogen.  (Eine Kontrolle der Rueckstaende zu den entsprechenden Zeiten
>>bestaetigte deren restlose Entgasung.)  >Peters>Die Verdunstung der Blausauere war also durch die niedrige
>>Temperatur nicht erheblich verlangsamt worden.*
>
>>Translating:  *In all cases, the most substantial part of the gas is
>>developed after one or at most two hours.  (A control of the residual
>>confirmed its complete outgassing after the corresponding times.)  _The
>>evaporation of prussic acid was therefore not seriously retarded at low
>>temperatures._*

	Sounds pretty close to what Erhlich said in the first place.

>>Now, I take these three sentences to be frustratingly contradictory at
>>first glance.
>
>[Snip. Mr. Ehrlich demonstrates nicely his complete ignorance of the German language,
>in this case his incapability to deal with the genitive and with compound nouns. He tries to
>hide this behind wild speculations on semantic qualities]
>
>>From the above I draw the conclusion that, at low temperatures, the
>>outgassing process comes to an end, but that that is not identical to a
>>complete evaporation of the HCN.   In other words, small amounts of HCN
>>remain locked into the carrier substance due to the low temperatures.
>
>As usual, everything is very simple. Mr. Ehrlich just mistranslated the first sentence,
>or to be precise, everything except the last sentence. The passage reads in English:
>
>"In all cases  the major part of the gas-developement is finished after one or at
>most two hours. (A control of the residual at the appropriate times confirmed
>the complete evaporation of the gas) The evaporation of prussic acid was therefore
>not seriously slowed by the low temperatures"
>
>Obviously there is no contradiction. The experiments show that at a low temperature,
>after one or perhaps two hours the prussic acid had nearly evaporated. Following tests
>show that no prussic acid remains in the carrier-material. Ergo - no slowing down
>in low temperatures.

	The temperature wasn't the topic focus of the post or the
preceding discussion on this release rate of Zyklon B. The initial
discussion centered more on whether it was a efficient, non idiotic
choice to use, and that 87.5% of the product would have gone unused
after the alleged extermination process.

	The only relevance the low temperature/release rate of Zyklon B
has to do with the Holocaust story is, that it seriously challenges
the testimony(s) about the SS lowering buckets of hot coals down into
the chamber to warm it up for the Zyklon B.  

>I would strongly recommend Mr. Ehrlich to learn German to avoid making himself
>ridiculous in this newsgroup.
>
>Nele
>
>P.S. Just in case, if somebody asks. :))



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 15:49:36 PDT 1996
Article: 57588 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph - zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:58:11 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel d) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># The topic is Zyklon B. Zyklon B in 1943 and 1945. 
>
>So far so good.
>
># The stuff that was designed for slower release. 
>
>No it was not.

># The stuff that had a release rate of somewhere around 100% in 
># 1 1/2 and 2 hours. 

Mr.Keren:
>This is better than your "perhaps months" estimate of the past.

	Here we have it. You recognize it for its slow release
properties.

	Maybe you better post the whole passage to show your not trying
to pull a fast one by claiming I commit myself to the conclusion
"perhaps months". 

	I also cited a Polish report on cyanide traces at Auschwitz
today, where a footnote notes that a existing sample of Zyklon B in
the Auschwitz museum still shows traces 50 years later.

	If I state that I have posted my opinion on the release rate
before, which was from 1 1/2 to 2 hours as the above, would that be a
lie?

	If I could show that I have posted my accepted opinion on the
release rate, and it was 1 1/2 to 2 hours, would this show that you
are trying to pull a fast one by implying I said it was "months"?

	Where should we start? Should we start with your posting of the
full passage with the "perhaps months" words to show that it is in
fact a conclusion I have made?

	Here's a little incentive. Your trying to pull a fast one
Mr.Keren. Since we've been through this before, we have to recognize
that at least you and I are aware of the facts, so in your trying to
pull a fast one, it couldn't be on me, and I would think your not
consciously trying to hoodwink yourself, then your subterfuge must be
aimed at someone else.

	Post the full passage, Mr.Keren. Show your stuff.   
 
># Using the optional Holocaust numbers, the amount left
># over would be 92.5%.

>You prove, one again, that you cannot handle basic arithmetic.

	Another, by now, infamous Mr.Keren response to a mathematical
statement.

># As I recall your the one who kept asking "What floor?" 
># would the flues run under from the alleged ovens at the 
># center of a extermination building to the chimney out side.

>So, are you claiming the flues ran under the floor? If
>so, what floor?

	The same floor your colleague in nitwittery, Mr.VanAlstine,
attested to.

># Your the one, a "PhD", 

>Don't project your inferiority complex on me. The fact that
>I happen to have a Ph.D seems to cause great problems to
>you and Giwer. There are, BTW, a few other Ph.D's or Ph.D
>candidates regularly posting to this group. Some in fields
>more related to the discussions in this group than mine
>(chemistry, for instance).

	Oh so you let on that a PhD. is something to envy do you?
What you don't understand is that I like to show that a title doesn't
mean anything. There are thousands, tens of thousands of PhD.s. in the
world. Most have a certain specialty. Most often it is a specialty
within a specialty. Some PhD.s. could be in fine arts, but it doesn't
mean they have to be accomplished in fine arts. You find a niche, you
do a treatise, you get a paper.
	I personally don't know what Giwer's motive is for picking on
your paper, but mine is to educate humanity to show that a paper
doesn't protect one from being a fool. 

># that resorts to the baby talk. Your the one that would be 
># reluctant to show any of your postings to any of
># your collegues. Post their names and we'll get in touch
># and ask them to participate.
>
>I have no idea what you're talking about. What colleagues? In
>my areas of research? Why would they necessarily be interested
>in reading this newsgroup? What do you mean by "your the one 
>that would be reluctant to show any of your postings to any of
>your collegues"? You're crazy, Tom.
>
>Tom: it is not *my* fault that you two are losers, 
>two over-the-hill losers who are frustrated and hateful 
>because their lives have been a failure. You can say 
>what you want about me, but it ain't my fault.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 18:57:14 PDT 1996
Article: 57605 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phoenicians and America
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:10:45 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:39592 alt.revisionism:57605

"Ourobouros"  wrote:
>
>Perhaps we can say that Whites were instrumental in yet more
>civilizations?  

	Check out the Olmec history. Precedeing the Mayas, Mixtec and
Aztec. Notice the Oriental.




From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 18:57:15 PDT 1996
Article: 57606 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Certain Perspective
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:53:22 GMT
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	Six million Jews killed?

If we could line up that many people in rows, toe to heal and ten
across, the whole line would be about a hundred miles long.

If you started at one end in a car and drove along side these ten rows
at 60 miles an hour, it would take you about an hour and a half before
you got to the other end.

Think about that the next time you take a spin.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 18:57:15 PDT 1996
Article: 57612 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lagace's testimony
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:53:24 GMT
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	The testimony given here, that sorely stresses, even makes a
mockery of the crematoria stories of the Holocaust, is only the
testimony of one man.

	Yet, if we had ten more expert statements on the subject, how
many would differ to any great degree from Legace's?	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 18:57:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57613 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:05:33 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	"The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two
>million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same
>six million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A
>person who denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the
>Holocaust itself".
>	
>	David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League of Human Rights" of
>the B'nai B'rith, Canada.

	Two million of six million is one third.

	The reference to "two million children" is not supported by any
of the hundreds of photographs of Auschwitz. Nor is it supported by
the Holocaust's own testimonies. Not even to a tiny degree.

	 >	



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 18:57:17 PDT 1996
Article: 57623 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1,000,000 , plus or minus, Pre-war Jews in Europe?
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:33:17 GMT
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	The number of Jews in pre-war Europe, excluding the Soviet Union,
was probably somewhere around a million, give or take a hundred
thousand or so.

	At one time in the Holocaust story, it was said there were
700,000 Jews in pre-war France. The figure given now is 70,000.

	The 700,000 figure was said to have been taken from a list by the
Germans themselves. The list also included other nations, one being
Hungary, which was said to have been around 700,000 also. Even though
the 700,000 for France has been accepted as false and the new figure
of 70,000 is currently accepted as the more proper figure, the number
for those Jews in pre-war Hungary still stands.

	Poland is said to have had 3,000,000 Jews. For some reason
equaling all the other nations put together.

	Considering how the former French Jew population stands now as an
exaggeration of ten times the former assertion we have to take a look
at the Polish figures and any other figures with the same 'ten times'
in mind.

	Considering the populations given for the remaining European
countries, a few ten thousand here and a few ten thousand there, we
can easily get the idea that there were barely a million Jews in
pre-war Europe.

	Even today, in the world of high technology, Jewish claims of
present day Jews in the world can range from 13 million to 16 million
to 20 million.

	Recently an article in the Jeruselem Post claimed that the
previous estimate of 2.5 million Jews presently in the Soviet Union is
mistaken, and is now claimed to be 5 million, twice the previous
figure.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 15 18:57:17 PDT 1996
Article: 57624 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Repost] Tom Moran: A Chronicle of Lies (Round 7)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:40:30 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

Tom Moran writes:

	Not the wet noodle again? Ouch.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 16 07:52:22 PDT 1996
Article: 57653 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Dictionary
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:29:29 GMT
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	Glossary of Holocaust Terms

Final solution: In Holocaust vernacular it literaly means 'We are
going to kill all the Jews'.

Selection/Selection process: The process of singling out certain
persons for the gas chamber. Whenever you see the term, it means that.
Some photographic evidence can be found in the Holocaust Museum
sponsored book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp", where in one
photo a group of arrivals at Auschwitz are seperated into men and
women, and captioned: "The arrival and selection of Hungarian Jews to
Auschwitz." The other photo shows a small group of all ages and sex by
some rail cars, also: "Arrival and selection of Hungarian Jews at
Auschwitz.".

Neo-Nazi: Anyone who disbelieves in any part of the Holocaust story.

Gas: 1. Fumigation pellets.

Eyewitness/witness account: Documents produced that contain a
statement by a person said to have seen something or heard something.
Quite often the style and the scope of the narrative from one witness
to another is indistiguishable.

Crematoria: Not necessarily to mean the process of cremation only.	
The whole kit and kaboodle, a facility (building) for the whole
process of extermination, from gassing to cremation.

Gas chamber: A specific place or room were the actual process of
gassing took place. It could be a cellar right in among the barracks
of the inmates, Gestapos Office or a morgue/bomb shelter right next to
the SS hospital. It could also be a "little white house" or a "little
red house". Also identified as a connected surface annex to a larger
building.

Introduction: Dropping in the pellets of fumigant.

Introduction system: Holes in tops or sides of the gassing chambers.
Fomerly; shower heads. The belief in this was abandoned when someone
ask how it was possible to put pellets through shower heads.

Mass grave: Any place where it is said that up to 2,000,000 were
buried. 

Mass extermination: The process of killing up to 2,000 people in any
one procedure totaling up to 24,000 a day and 2,000,000 a year.

Oven, Furnace: A chamber that is heated coke. The chambers at
Ausxhwitz were about the size of a refrigerator and could cremate two
hundred people a day.

Zyklon/Zyklon A: Product(s) that should exist in regard to the known
existing product of Zyklon B.

Zyklon B: A product name for a German fumigant.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 16 07:52:24 PDT 1996
Article: 57691 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:29:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Holocaust books donate a considerable amount of space to
establishing a Jewish population in Europe to be able to maintain the
6,000,000 Jewish victims claim. This topic is covered to a certain
degree on alt.rev. under "Hebrew Numerology".
	Tallying of the Jewish population takes on the same dynamics as
the evolving numerology of the Holocaust story in general, where
anywhere between 300,000 and 4,000,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz,
10, 11 or 12 million people in all were exterminated by Germany, that
anywhere btween 7, 8 or 9 hundred thousand Jews were in Hungary - etc.
	Even to this day there seems to be a wide variation as to the
existing Jewish population in the world. Figures that pop up here and
there range from 13 million to 16 million to 20 million, take your
pick. 
	Since the Jews accounting of their numbers at this time is so
widely varied, how can we accept their accounts of their population
during and preceding the Holocaust story.

	In addition to these population estimates claimed, Yehuda Bauer
in his "A History of the Holocaust" writes, "Of the 17 million Jews in
the world in the early twenties, 4.5 million lived in the Unitied
States ... Pg. 68


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:36 PDT 1996
Article: 57984 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:52:07 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	In fact, there are more Holocaust facts on Auschwitz than all the
rest of the alleged extermination camps put together.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:37 PDT 1996
Article: 58104 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phoenicians and America
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:12:05 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:39881 alt.revisionism:58104

Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Ourobouros wrote:
>> 
>> throughout the world, ie., containing Phoencian artifacts.  BTW, the cover
>> of said book has a sculpture of a Phoenician head with
>> blue eyes.
>
>Phoenicians were the original Semites. Hebrew is a dialect of
>Phoenician.
>
>So we have Phoenicians -> Hebrews -> Jews.
>
>Da Joos was here foist!

	The Jews were here last. The development of writing occurred over
a long period of time, with the last great contribution coming from
the Phoenicians. 
	
	The Meso-Americans left a great history of art, as did the
Phoenicians and everyone else. Everyone but the Jews. They had to have
the same build their temple. They had no skills or culture.

	The Phoenicians and the Hebrews lived next to each other. They
were two entirely two different cultures. 

	History books and history art books might have twenty of thirty
pages on various societies, but when it comes to the Hebrews, maybe
one page.

	Any boats the Hebrews ever had, they had to have the Phoenicians
build them for them. If anyone ever got to the Americas from the
Mediterranean it would have been the Phoenicians, and the Hebrews
would have been the least likely.

	The only thing the Jews have, is chutzpa. The non-reality.

>Now we know what happened to the lost tribes!
>
>They became "Native Americans"!
>
>Which means that this land is part of Israel and belongs to da Joos!

>ZOG must be informed immediately!
>
>Wadda marroon!


	What we have witnessed here is the Hebrew ego at work under the
guise of being witty. In the end, only wishful thinking out loud.

	The Jews despise other peoples cultures. I have never met a Jew
yet who didn't just scoff if you raise a discussion about the arts and
attainments of other cultures.

	They get - fidgety.

	  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:38 PDT 1996
Article: 58105 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:07:41 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Two million of six million is one third.
>#
># The reference to "two million children" is not supported
># by any of the hundreds of photographs of Auschwitz. Nor is
># it supported by the Holocaust's own testimonies. 
>
>What do you mean by "nor is it supported by the Holocaust's
>own testimonies"? Do you mean that witnesses don't mention
>that many children were murdered? But they do say this.
>
>One indication to the percentage of children among the
>victims is the report by SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager about
>the numbers of Jews murdered by his unit (Einsatzkommando 3),
>in Lithuania, during July-November 1941. The report gives
>a very accurate breakdown, by dates, and also classifies
>the victims into Jewish men, women, and children.
>
>Some typical entries:
>
>[Source: 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
> Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 46-58].
>
>The Commander of
>the security police and
>the SD
>Einsatzkommando 3     Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941
>
>--------------------------
>|Secret Reich Business!  |             5 copies
>--------------------------             4th copy
>
>      Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
>      up to 1 December 1941
>
>[...]
>
>
>12.9.41      City of Wilna     993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
>                               Jewish children                       3,334
>17.9.41      City of Wilna     337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
>                               Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm.     1,271
>20.9.41      Nemencing         128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
>                               Jewish children                       403
>22.9.41      Novo-Wilejka      468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
>                               Jewish children                       1,159
>24.9.41      Riess             512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
>                               Jewish children                       1,767
>25.9.41      Jahiunai          215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
>                               Jewish children                       575
>27.9.41      Eysisky           989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
>                               Jewish children                       3,446
>30.9.41      Trakai            366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
>                               Jewish children                       1,446
>4.10.41      City of Wilna     432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
>                               Jewish children                       1,983
>6.10.41      Semiliski         213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
>                               Jewish children                       962
>9.10.41      Svenciany         1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
>                               Jewish children                       3,726
>16.10.41     City of Wilna     382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
>                               Jewish children                       1,146
>21.10.41     City of Wilna     718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
>                               Jewish children                       2,367
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>Do the calculation. I can post the complete report.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>

	Here's Keren with one of his eyewitness testimony documents.
Notice I say "one". Do I know if it's a forgery? Do I know if the
Germans were reporting on the citizens rage against the Jews? Keren
offers one, uncertainty. Photographs are far more certain. Hundreds of
photographs of camps interees that don't support the claim that 1/3 of
the Holocaust victims could be children.

	All the photographs of the arrival and "selection" of people to
Auschwitz, all those in the camp should show this ratio. Yet they
don't. You better come up with something more than one little
uncertain document. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Aug 19 16:06:39 PDT 1996
Article: 58114 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:48:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	This is the same as the original post. The only thing that has
been changed is the word Majdanek for Treblinka, and the numbers.
                      ------------------

	Its interesting how the extermination camp Treblinka is said to
have been over run by the Soviets while it was still in operation and
yet there is more focus, energy and Holocaust facts alleged for
Auschwitz, which is said to have stopped it's exterminations 4 to 5
months before the Soviets arrived, and had executed a plan to cover up
the evidence.
	
	Adding to this interest would be the current Holocaust fact that
2,000,000 people are said to have died at Treblinka, 1, 1.1 or 1.2
million more than Auschwitz.

	Review of the Holocaust dependents record for this focus on
Auschwitz might reveal a ratio of a hundred to one, maybe a thousand
to one, compared to any mention of Treblinka. Seems it should be the
other way around.

	Holocaust accounting defies the logical and probable.
 



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 20 07:26:22 PDT 1996
Article: 58348 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Extraordinary Absence
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:58:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	One million, five hundred thousand people are said to have been
exterminated at Majdanek. Thats 1,500,000. Five, six, seven hundred
thousand more than Auschwitz's alleged numbers currently held.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 20 07:26:22 PDT 1996
Article: 58351 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lagace's testimony
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:01:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Yet, if we had ten more expert statements on the subject,
># how many would differ to any great degree from Legace's?
>
>How many would claim that corpses might explode like a
>napalm bomb, and burn down the whole crematory building,
>if inserted to a furnace which is too hot?
>
>This is what "revisionist scholar" Legace said.

	Really? Are these his exact words? Or are they your ecxact words?

	You keep returning to same the distortions. Why don't you take a
little more professional approach to it. Post the material you are
saying what you say it says. Go for it.

	While your at it, make some comment on the other 99% of what the
report says.

	
>-Danny Keren.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 20 10:25:48 PDT 1996
Article: 133695 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <32134415.6466485@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <32134415.6466485@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:39:26 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 20 10:25:49 PDT 1996
Article: 134111 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <321481d5.1139364@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <321481d5.1139364@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:34:59 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug 21 07:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 58661 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Wheres the money. Gimme,Gimme,Gimme
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:29:32 GMT
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	The continuing saga of the Jewish attempts to retrieve up to
billions from Swiss banks.

	Previously reported was the Jewish attempts to claim money left
over in Swiss accounts that are said to have been left by Holocaust
victims.

	In one report it was stated that the Jews were going to get the
U.S. Congress in on the act, with D'Amato's name explicitly. Well he's
in on it.

                	N.Y.Times May 2, 96.
      "Swiss Accord Is Called Near On Holocaust Victims' Funds"

	"Leaders of Jewish organizations and swiss banking officials are
expected to sign an agreement today to search for funds deposited in
Switzerland during the frantic days of WWII by those who died in the
Holocaust."

	"Under the proposal, a committee headed by a chairman and six
members, three appointed by Jewish organizations and three by Swiss
bankers, would oversee the auditors."

	"Edgar Bronfman Sr., president of the World Jewish Congress, said
he expected the agreement will be signed today in N.Y."

	"At a hearing last week, Senator Alfonso D'Amato, Rep. New York
and chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, questioned whether Swiss
bank officials were using that country's bank secrecy laws to shield
records from inspection."

	"One recently declassified Treasury Department document from 1945
suggested that in one Swiss bank alone there were 182 accounts, mostly
>from  Romanian Jews, worth two million, funds that with interest would
now be worth about $20 million."


	Lets see. The Jews said they were going to get the U.S. Senate in
on it, and it came through.
	The Swiss are going to allow Jews to sift through their records,
many of which we assume are others private business.
	They figure whatever real numbers they find should be worth ten
times the amount.

	It would be interesting to see the "recently declassified
Treasury Department document". Seems they are pouring all over the
place. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 27 13:00:13 PDT 1996
Article: 60345 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:05:00 GMT
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EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>>Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
>>   Yehuda Bauer's  between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
>>	
>>   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ l Auschwitz >   2,300,000.
>> 
>>   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia>   1980.  2,500,000
>>
>>   Billig, Joseph.  >   pp 101-102. 2,000,000
>>
>>   Encyclopedia Judaica,>   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000
>>
>>   Friedman, Filip. 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000


>Etc, etc, etc. One lie,er....number is as good as another.

Huber thanks for the additional examples that show Wiesenthal and
others as liars. I'll make sure I include them with the next repost.
Of course there are probably hundreds, thousands more that have
appeared in our medias.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 27 13:53:13 PDT 1996
Article: 60356 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why do the Jews lie about the holocaust? What do they gain?
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:26:14 GMT
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Mike Curtis (mcurtis@inetport.com) wrote:
>: vincent@dreamon.com (The Bok) wrote:
>: 
>: >I have been reading tons of the posts on this newsgroup and I have
>: >come to the conclusiont that the Jews seem to be hiding something.
>: >Their posts seem to be hate filled and sarcastic. I could argue many
>: >things into the ground, but the Jews on this Newsgroups seem more
>: >interested in personal attacks and what seems like weak evidence.
>: >
>: 
>: Who are the Jews on this newsgroup?
>
>You, apparently, Mike. And me.  And Ken McVay, and Gord McFee.
>
>Ain't us JOOS tricky?

	Maybe he should have said the Jews and their lackies. Who knows,
maybe these names are paid to post stuff out here so it appears that
there are goyims. 
	After all it is often included in reports on people defending the
Holocaust story that they aren't Jewish. One article in the L.A. Times
on McVay made a point he wasn't Jewish.
>Bill
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 27 20:57:56 PDT 1996
Article: 60395 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Egyptians
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:58:25 GMT
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	After a number of days wondering around in the high plains
wilderness, one of which was Yellowstone Park, Moran returns with
tales from the woods.

	Moran was 'dining out' in the vicinity of a noted basalt flow
when in drove a family of one wife, husband and two kids, one boy and
one girl.

	Moran had spotted them at another attraction and recognized them
as Jewish. The father looked Jewish and the male child, about nine,
had this hard confrontational expression on his face which Moran had
noticed on Hebrew kids before. The father had a belligerent attitude
as he plowed past the roving sightseers, seemingly in a rush to get it
over with. You generally don't see Jews out in a format like that,
even one structured like Yellowstone Park.

	Anyway, as Moran squatted gnawing on a bone by the basalt flow,
in drives the family and the quartet gets out. The father, with the
son following, head for the formation when the father ask Moran if
there is a path up to the top. Moran informed them there wasn't but
they could blaze one around the end or take a path going down along
side the river. The father lurched in that direction with the kid
tagging along.

	After about ten minutes, and while Moran was finishing up gnawing
on the bone, the mother walked over and ask Moran why the rocks had
the shape they did. They were an ideal example of columnar jointing
and Moran informed the lady it was basalt. She not hearing the 'ba' in
the basalt, ask amazed like, "Salt?" Moran reiterated, "Basalt". They
lady ask how come they're shaped like that and Moran told her it was
>from  the cooling process causing a certain molecular arrangement of
crystals and the subsequent eroding away of the overlying pressure
that caused the effect.

	Moran included that it was a wonder that the "Sheepeater" Indians
that hung around there in days of old didn't take to constructing
something from the rocks that had fallen away, since they had a
certain geometric conformity in shape.

	The lady offered that maybe it was because they were too hard.

	Moran mentioned that the Egyptians did some remarkable things
with basalt and possibly it was the sub-base to the pyramids to which
they fitted the outer smooth sedimentary rocks, now mostly worn away
by thousands of years of erosion.

	The lady said something about "Yea, look who they had to build
them." Moran ask, "Who was that?". She said "Jewish slaves". Moran
mentioned that many people had slaves in those days, even Israel, and
that it was mentioned in their Bible. Moran was hoping for a little
discussion, seeing maybe he could further liberate the lady from her
ill perceptions of personal persecution, but she became horrified at
the truth and just scurried back to her car.   

	In a moment or two the father and the son emerged from their
short hike and they left. As Moran returned to his squatting and
gnawing he watched the foursome drive away and wondered if the lady
would ever come to discuss her encounter with Moran in the woods. 

	As Moran 'washed' his hands by rubbing them in the dust on the
ground, he thought a bit more about the incident. He thought of how
the Jews think they are the only ones who were ever persecuted. He
also thought how it is evident that any connection between the Jews of
today and those of when the pyramids were built would be far diluted. 

	Moran also thought how any record of the Jews really only goes
back to about 1200 BC, a couple of thousand years after the pyramids
were built, and no one can say exactly who participated in their
construction.  	

	As Moran wiped away the dust on his pants, he thought, 'It's
really a sorry thing to rue the day of a thousand years ago, and
especially since they don't have the slightest proof to show they are
in fact rueing a reality.

	The day was drawing short and Moran had to think about finding a
cave to sleep in, but before he left he turned to look at the mighty
formation of hardened ages old rock, once solid, formidable, now
breaking away to collapse as rubble and then on to grains, in time
washed away by the streams and rivers.   



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 27 20:57:56 PDT 1996
Article: 60429 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:00:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	"Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"?

	
	Yup. This is one of the Jewish community's many absurd proposals.


	This would mean that objecting to the Zionist policy of shooting
down little kids with bullets for their throwing stones, uprooting
their daddies orchards, barring their daddies access to work, closing
their schools for years, holding them prisoners without due process,
torture, defying U.N. resolutions, breaking "peace" agreements,
rousting whole populations with bombs, blowing up refugee camps and
the myriad of other unaesthetic Zionist policies - ah yes, complaining
about this is an act of anti-Semitism.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 27 20:57:57 PDT 1996
Article: 60430 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: If no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:01:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 11
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	If there was no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?

	This is a question I have seen out here a number of times in
callenging revisionistic postings.


	If there was no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?

	The answer should be logically apparent. If no Holocaust, then
the Jews of the story never where in the first place.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Aug 27 20:57:57 PDT 1996
Article: 60431 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why do the Jews lie about the holocaust? What do they gain?
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:03:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 15
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vincent@dreamon.com (The Bok) wrote:

>I have been reading tons of the posts on this newsgroup and I have
>come to the conclusiont that the Jews seem to be hiding something.
>Their posts seem to be hate filled and sarcastic. I could argue many
>things into the ground, but the Jews on this Newsgroups seem more
>interested in personal attacks and what seems like weak evidence.
>
>Why is that? I have heard that the Jews run the media, so does that
>mean that they purposely mislead people for gain?
>
>Just curious...and new here.

	Just post your material and don't worry about the losers out here
making insults. It's a sign they have nothing else.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug 28 07:32:38 PDT 1996
Article: 60493 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why are "revisionists" gutless jellyfish?
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:04:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>I wonder why it is that such a large percentage of "revisionists" post under
>pseudonyms, or anonymously?  If they are such great and brave believers in the
>truth, why can't they screw up the courage to post under their real names?  I
>have nothing against pseudonyms and anonymity in general, but it is intriguing
>that *this* particular crew favours it to such a high degerr.
>
>Could it be that they are gutless jellyfish?  Or are they secretly aware what
>scumbags they are and don't want their mommies to find out?
>
>I hope this message isn't taken as provocative.  I really want to know.  };->


	While I think they should come out with their real names,
"McFee", I think they may be fearing the energy of the socially and
politically correct, lashing out at them, with they having no recourse
to defend themselves. Many totalitarian regimes have been faught with
the heroes having to resort to ficticious code names.

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug 28 12:06:02 PDT 1996
Article: 60611 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:42:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <32245aa3.577371@news.pacificnet.net>
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gaost3+@pitt.edu (Gwen A Orel) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 			
>: 	If there was no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?
>
>: 	This is a question I have seen out here a number of times in
>: callenging revisionistic postings.
>
>
>: 	If there was no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?
>
>: 	The answer should be logically apparent. If no Holocaust, then
>: the Jews of the story never where in the first place.
>
>But there are records of their existence, thoughtfully maintained by the
>Nazis.

	Is this it? 'Oh there are records, but I don't have to show them,
all I have to do is say there are.'


>Gwen
>-- 
>"Live as one already dead." --Japanese saying
>
>I live in fear of not being misunderstood.-- Oscar wilde



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Aug 28 17:55:39 PDT 1996
Article: 60674 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: INEVITABLE
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:49:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	The demise of the Holocaust story as fact is inevitable. It is on
it's way to becoming the rout of the millennia. Nothing can hold it
back. As sure as the tides come and go, the big lie is on the verge of
global exposure.

	Just a few years ago, only a few were aware and involved in
exposing the truth. Now there are many. 

	Like binary fission one person tells another and these in turn
tell others. One non-believer becomes two, two becomes four, four
becomes eight - one thousand becomes two thousand unto millions, and
then the billions will come to believe in the truth, the Holocaust
story is a lie.

	The handle on the toilet has been pushed. Now the Holocaust story
is spinning in the vortex.

	

	

		    


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 07:28:00 PDT 1996
Article: 60753 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:43:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <32230dc1.666899@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>                         
>>         If there was no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?
>> 
>>         This is a question I have seen out here a number of times in
>> callenging revisionistic postings.
>> 
>> 
>>         If there was no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?
>> 
>>         The answer should be logically apparent. If no Holocaust, then
>> the Jews of the story never where in the first place.
>
>So it is your claim them that the 6 million Jews who were systematically
>exterminated by the Nazi machine never actually existed ? Your population
>statistics to support this truly stupid claim would be where ?

	You show them. I'll expose them.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 07:28:00 PDT 1996
Article: 60762 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews?
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:47:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <32245b3b.728689@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32230dc1.666899@news.pacificnet.net>  
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>> In article <32230dc1.666899@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>> moran) wrote:
>> 
>
>> >         The answer should be logically apparent. If no Holocaust, then
>> > the Jews of the story never where in the first place.
>
>Please tell tham to ME and MY family, Mr. Moron.
> 
>Tell me my relatives, of whom I have a number of photographs, did not exist.
> 
>Please. Tell me.

	You say you have "photographs"? That is it? How many did you
lose? I have seen individuals say they personally lost from 120 to 160
relatives. Now how many "photographs" do you have?


 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:13 PDT 1996
Article: 60824 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:12:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
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Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz

	To those who are new to alt.revisionism.
Take note of how 99.99% of the story is focused on Auschwitz. At one
time the Holocaust facts were that Auschwitz was the center for the
extermination of 4 million people. Currently it is somewhere around 1
million. Even, according to one of the Holocaust dependents most cited
authorities, the numbers are more like 600 thousand. Down, down, down
go the numbers.

	Yet there are other camps said to have been the centers for the
extermination of far greater numbers. Majdanek is said to have been a
place where 1.5 million were exterminated. Treblinka 2 million. 

	In addition to this, both Treblinka and Majdanek are said to have
been over run by the Soviets while they were still in operation and
that a "Extraordinary Commission" was installed within a day of the
capture to investigate any crimes whereas Auschwitz is said to have
ceased exterminating people 5 months prior to being over run and that
the Germans had initiated a demolition program to cover up the alleged
exterminations.

	One would think that with the numbers for Treblinka and Majdanek
each being 2 to 3 times that of Auschwitz and that they were over run
while still in full operation and that Auschwitz had destroyed all the
evidence, that the two former camps would be the center of focus to
show that the Holocasut story is true.

	Thus it appears the Holocaust dependents are presenting what we
should expect is the lesser evidence instead of what we should expect
would be the greater evidence.

	Interesting.    


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:14 PDT 1996
Article: 60828 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:29:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 4
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	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to newer
accounts that are currently written in stone.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:15 PDT 1996
Article: 60840 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:39:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Seems the Holocaust story uses the records from the manufacturer
of Zyklon B to show that Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz. Seems some
of these records are missing. Whole years worth.
 			      	
    	Now who did it?
 
	Three main suspects. The Germans to cover up. Beneficiaries of
the Holocaust. Or revisionist types out to discredit the story.
	We might suspect a gradual rise in shipments to Auschwitz in
relation to the increasing population once it was set up which shown
graphically would be represented by a more of less straight line
rising steadily.
	What the records could show in addition to and in relation to the
existing records is that a sharp increase in orders took place around
the years the mass exterminations were said to have been at maximum
use, which could suggest it was for the extermination process.
Definitely, if this was the case this would be evidence for the
Holocaust story. This would direct the suspicious eye at Germans as
the thieves out to cover up or any revisionist type that would be out
to discredit the story. 
	
	On the other hand if the records were pretty consistent, showing
maybe an increase around the time of the epidemic of Typhus but not
for the high extermination period, this would be evidence for the
revisionist and the suspicious eye could turn to the beneficiaries and
perpetuators of the Holocaust story.
	
	But why would anyone only steal some of the records and not all
of them? Certainly, if they had the access and opportunity to steal
the number said, we could suppose they could have taken them all, but
some were left behind. Possibly someone wanted to make sure there was
some record, at least, to show Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz and
took the rest of the records so no overall record existed for
comparison.




From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:16 PDT 1996
Article: 60844 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocuster's Last Stand
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:40:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                       [repost]
	
	There are many aspects to the Holocaust story. Numbers, methods,
and locations are the basic ingredients. How many people were
exterminated, how and where.
	This could be listed under two general headings, camps and field.
	The camps would be those places set up or eventually modified
especially for the purpose of mass extermination.
	The field would head all the things said to have happened outside
of the camps as to mass extermination.
	Many of the camps once said to have been extermination centers
have already been deleted from the story, as is the same for many
methods once said to have been used.  
	As for the killings in the field, next to nothing has been found
that would even remotely substantiate the huge numbers said to have
been killed, sometimes as many 40,000 all in one night at a single
location.
	After all this and aside from all that is left, the conflict
between truth and fiction is all focused on Auschwitz. 
	Auschwitz is the soup can at the bottom of the pyramid. The
cornerstone. The focus of the whole story. Center stage. The last
tension in the wind up toy. Once the world sanity comes to recognize
the myths of Auschwitz everything else tumbles, melts and crys.
	All the talk about populations, the 3,000,000 names collected,
all the big tales, all the little tales, all the witnesses, all the
interpretations, all the confirming research, all the books, all the
museums, all the activity of the last fifty years, all will follow.
	Auschwitz, the vital frontier. When it all falls, it will be
Humpty Dumpty time. All the books and all the museums or anything else
will not be able to sustain belief or acceptance in whatever remains.
 
	Only a major revision to the First Amendment, enforced by 
totalitarian authority, can keep the Holocaust story true.
	




 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:17 PDT 1996
Article: 60846 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Day of Rememberance
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:32:14 GMT
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	 4/17/96 in the N.Y. Times the report on the Jews holocaust
bombing of Lebanon's vital installations for survival like electrical
power plants that operate hospitals and such with American supplied
arms and the intentional bombing of refugee camps, mentioned the Jews
eased up for "2 minutes" in respect for Holocaust "Day of
Remembrance. 


	In the L.A.Times, same day, "Rotunda Rite in Remembrance of
Holocaust" it was reported that the main responsible parties for
supplying the arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite
in observance or Day of Remembrance.
	"Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony ..."

	It didn't say how many members of congress attended, but it also
reported that "Shortly after, the House passed, 420 - 0, a resolution
deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of the
Holocaust.
	It is probable that attempts were made to have the House ban the
right of anyone to deny the "reality" but this is all they dared right
now. But it could be a prelude.
	In the mean time our congress will be hard at work to see that
the Jews get all the things they need to continue their Holocaust in
the Mideast.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:17 PDT 1996
Article: 60847 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust "Museum of Tolerance"
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:45:13 GMT
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	This is the name of the Holocaust museum in Los Angeles,
California, formerly known as the "The Simon Wiesenthal Museum", or
something like that.
	The unwritten but expressed motto of the "Museum of Tolerance"
is: 'The members of the Museum of Tolerance do not tolerate any
opposition to the contents and conclusions of the Museum of
Tolerance'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:18 PDT 1996
Article: 60849 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is and what ain't - II
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:15:23 GMT
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	Jean Claude Pressac is a cited authority on the workings of the
Holocaust specializing in going over Soviet held German corporate
records for orders of equipment to Auschwitz. His book on what he
found, which is said to have taken ten years, is totally based on
nothing more than piecing together letters between the camp officials
and corporate repentatives, and shipping manifestos.

	He also presents a number of plans that are said to be
crematoriums, with front, back, end perspectives and elevations, along
with ground plans. The "crematorium" in Holocaust vernacular literally
means everything for the process of mass extermination, from gassing
to cremation.  

	One should expect that while Pressac was spending his ten years
in pouring over these records that he should have come across paper
work and plans for other camps, such as Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno
and Majdanek.

	All we can assume right now by the absence of what should be, is
that either Pressac found nothing or found something he chose not to
use.	



	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:19 PDT 1996
Article: 60850 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:22:24 GMT
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	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same general
path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and cremation,
and also the activities of the Einsatzgruppens, the preceding
"anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable treatment to
establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding 1939. After all,
if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put to death, they
have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena to have been
killed.
       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
(estimated)". In this table he has three vertical columns:

   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"


	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
5,200,000 in just 210 years.
	It seems that Bauer's list has Jewish population expanding at an
incredible rate between 1650 and 1860, where between 1800 and 1825
alone, the "estimated" Jewish population almost doubled from 1,500,000
to 2,730,000 in the 25 year period, all this increase taking place
during a time when the average life expectancy of man was about 50
some years, further stressed by wars, famines and plagues, and the
Jews undergoing "massive pogroms".
	One has to wonder how these "estimated" figures for dates from
1650 to 1860 would have been compiled in 1931. Especially since those
dates were times when communications and census capacities were
extremely low. If in fact there is such a book as the one cited as the
source, we would have to view the whole line of recogning offered in
the book to determine if the statistics aren't just founded on wishful
thinking.
	("Argumentum ad ignorantum: An argument purporting to demonstrate
a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of facts and
reasons the falsity or inadequacy of which is not readily discerned.")
	  
	By the early 20th Century Bauer, using a map from map happy
Gilbert, has the Jewish population up to 8,700,000 in Europe and
11,487,000 world wide.
	Its obvious that Holocaust books give consider effort to
establishing Jewish populations in order to show that there were
enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6,000,000.  Without
such treatment the story would be more stressed than it is on other
fronts.
	As usual, in their blatant tossing around of terms and numbers,
they include something that further throws suspicions on their claims,
and in this case Bauer offers us a map from Gilbert:

	"Some early records of Jewish town life in Europe before 1600":
that has to resort to listing the most obscure events to show that
Jews were even present in Europe. For Cologne 960 , it has "The local
Jews send a letter to Palestine asking for verification of a rumor
that a Messiah had come", not meaning Jesus Christ we can assume. In
Brussel 1310, "A Jewish scribe completes a fine illuminated
manuscript". In Munich 1228, "A Jew appears in court as a witness
during a trial", and 1173 at Wroclawek "Local coins discovered with
Hebrew inscriptions". So it seems it is necessary to pick up on wee
fragments of evidence to even show Jews existed in Europe by 1300 or
so. Given the Jewish penchant to seek out and hold anything Jewish,
this hardly seems like sufficient history to support the 700,000
Jewish population said to have been in existence by 1650.   	
	We might even want to consider the stories about millions of Jews
fleeing into the Soviet Union, which is said to already have had a
sizable Jewish population during WWII, and then ending up at only
about 2,500,000 or so by 1980. No problem here for Bauer's numbers
since he has about a million of them migrating to the U.S. at the end
of the 19th Century which would put the WWII population of Jews in the
U.S.S.R. low enough to accept the millions said to have fled the Nazis
and still be able to arrive at the numbers in recent times.
       Whatever happened to those million or so Russian Jews said to
have migrated to the U.S. at the end of the 19th century we can only
wonder, since if there was a million here by that time we would expect
millions more here and now in 1996, which there aren't to this day.
	Exaggerations, thorough fabrications - lies. That's this aspect
of the Holocaust story, as with the rest. 	



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:20 PDT 1996
Article: 60851 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:19:36 GMT
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	                    [Repost]
             	
		              - DACHAU - 

                      By Marcus J. Smith 
               State University of New York Press

Chapter 19, "The Burial Detail"

	"Many of the big guns of the Medical Corps are loaded, and on May
3, seventy two hours after our arrival in the camps, the barrage
begins that will bring victory against the body lice, the
misanthropic, parasitic, insects responsible for the transmission of
typhus fever from person to person. The Army has contributed enough
DDT so that dusting of all the inmates at Dachau and Allach can start.
By a superhuman effort the task is completed in five days. In addition
to the inmates. the official quarantine calls for dusting of all other
personnel - Army personnel, guards, visitors, Allied officials - when
they leave the inner camp for the outer area. Furthermore, these
persons are required to show their immunization records and be given
typhus vaccine, unless they have received the vaccine during the
previous thirty days. We should like to inoculate the inmates at this
time, but such action will have to wait. Despite the mighty resources
of the Army, there is insufficient vaccine on hand."
	                  
	So it seems in the final months of the war, when the food
supplies were having a tough time getting to the camps, even the
Zyklon supply was cut off. And since even the victorious U.S. Army was
short on supplies of typhus vaccine, we can understand what kind of
problems the Germans would have had getting the vital necessities to
the camps while they were undergoing heavy bombardment of their
cities, supplies and routes.
	It also demonstrates that there was a persistent problem with    
Typhus Fever, caused by lice, and this is why the fumigant Zyklon B
was even on the premises of the camps in the first place.
	If it wasn't for lice, there would be no Zyklon B found. If no
Zyklon B found then no agent of mass extermination to identify. If no
agent found, no gas stories would have endured. Therefore, if no lice,
no Holocaust.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:21 PDT 1996
Article: 60852 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ADL  "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:17:38 GMT
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                         [This is a repost]

	Letter to the Editor,  L.A. Times,  Nov. 21, 1991

                   "Censorship and Computers"

	"The Anti-Defamation League questioned Prodigy Consumer Network's
interpretation and application of it't self inposed guidelines for
determining the appropriateness of messages posted on it't bulletin
boards.  I did not, contrary to Dershowitz's assertion, demand that
Prodigy '"censor"' anti-Semitic messages. The ADL, counts itself among
the staunchest friends of free speech. The questions raised by
Dershowitz as to whether computer services should impose such
guidelines is not the point. In light of the fact that Prodigy has
guidelines, we brought to their attention complaints we recieved about
certain messages that appeared on Prodigy bulletin boards, including
messages claiming the Holocaust is a hoax. Prodigy concluded these
messages were not offensive. We disagree. Even Dershowitz disagrees.
	Dershowitz is wrong to claim that ADL's actions '"aggravated the
problem."'  As the '"watchdog of the Jewish Community against
anti-Semitism"', we believe it is better to expose institutional
racism and anti-Semitism, if it exist, than to pretend it does not.
ADL did not '"mainstream"' the bigotry, it exposed it.
	The conflict is between freedom of speech and the right not to be
offended. Constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe, of Harvard, has
stated his belief that, with regard to computerized communications,
the issues invovled are not adequately addressed by our legal system.
However, since Prodigy has promulgated guidelines and taken the
responsibility for drawing lines and making judgement calls as to what
is and is not offensive, we and their subscribers have every right to
question their decisions without being labeled promoters of
censorship."
                                                 TZIVIA SSHWARTZ
                                   Western States Associate Counsel
                              Anti- Defamation League, Los Angeles

	What a crock of crap. '...among the staunchest friends of freedom
of speech", "...complaints they recieved..."  The only example they
put in here as to these complaints concerns Holocaust denial. Their
own interests. They are in denial by stating they did not "demand"
Prodigy '"censor"' '"anti-Semitic"' messages and then raising it as a
legitimate topic for Constitiutional revisionism. 
	"The conflict is between freedom of speech and the right not to
be offended."  All those Palestinians, Arabs of other nations, Muslims
and Catholics have the right not to be offended, yet this ADL has
leveled all sorts of vile accusations against them and they don't go
crying for special interpretations and application of our free speech
clause. In true ADL form, they cite a "Constitutional law professor
.. from Harvard" as a selling point for their view. One man? Some
weak minded academite. "Even Dershowitz disagrees"? Dershowitz plays
himself as a champion of freedom of speech so he can play that even
Holocaust denial is objectionable enough to warrant censorship. This
is the good cop bad cop practice that so often accompanies the
writings of this faction. I would suggest a full vote before the whole
United States as to what should or should not be censored on the
Internet. Hows that for democratic procedure? Why leave it up to weak
people in position to submit to the standards of those who sleeze
around to have our Constitution be specialized for their particular
cause.  
	The ADL and associated organizations have their concept of what
they think is offensive, and get their complaints in wherever they
want, but in the end they're the ones who have the big history of
offensiveness against whole nations, whole peoples, whole religions,
and they express it with regularity right in our faces, right in our
public medias, galore.
	Right here in their own directive, REVISIONISM IS ANTI-SEMITISM.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:22 PDT 1996
Article: 60853 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:28:33 GMT
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	       Also titled, Great concepts worth knowing.
	
	
	"Deus ex machina".

	Random House Dictionary:
  1. "a god who resolves the entanglements of the play by his super
natural forces".
  2. "an artificial, forced or improbable device used to resolve the
difficulties of a plot".

	Like a document for every occasion, or interpreting an ant hill
phrase or word into a mountain range, or citing eye witness or second
party eyewitness testimony, special interpretation of testimony,
anonymous accounts, finding accounts in bottles buried at the 'scene
of the crime', or merely blurting out whatever suits the purpose.

	Pondering the idea of deus ex machina leads to pondering another
related principle:               

                  ----------------------------

	 Argumentum ad ignorantum:
     "An argument purporting to demonstrate a point or to persuade
people, which avails itself of facts and reasons the falsity or
inadequacy of which is not readily discerned;(or available for
validation), a misleading argument used in reliance on peoples
ignorance", (or inability to access any references cited as showing
proof) such as most of the Holocaust evidence.


                  ------------------------------

	One would think that if a person or a side had good argument
for/or against something they would rely on introducing information or
logic to show their views. Barring this we have to recognize that if
anyone resorts to blanket insults or name calling it is a sign of
break down. 	            

                   - Argumentum ad hominem: -
                  
         "An irrelevant or malicious appeal to personal circumstances;
it consists in diverting an argument from sound facts and reasons to
the personality of the opponent."
	         Calling the opponent names. 
	         Making snide little remarks.

	       Another way of putting it is, 'EVASION' for lack of
anything else.


	































































                    Argumentum ad Special Exception


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:23 PDT 1996
Article: 60854 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ultimate Responsibility
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:24:42 GMT
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		      This is a repost.

		
	"Know ye not history and you are doomed to repeat it."
         Know ye your history of malice and repeat it, and the malice
of consequences repeateth also.
	No group in the world has such a repeated history in the world as
the Hebrews. They relish in recounting this history as if it is a high
point of achievement, without going through the recognized procedure
of objectively learning from history. It is always the other guy who
is at fault. 

                    "The Jewish Book of Days"

	is a small hard covered calendar book starting off with January
and ending in December and no particular year involved. Each page is
divided up into seven horizontal spaces, each one having a numerical
date corresponding to the month and in each space there is a notation
for something the Jews find significant, such as January 1 notes "Hank
Greenberg, professional baseball player, born (1911)" or June 27 notes
"The Yiddish newspaper Die Yidishe Velt began publication in New York
(1902)".
	The Jewish history also cites among the attaining people and
moments of their history a substantial and proud recollection of their
effects on others, the first appearing under the book date,

    Jan. 8 Jews expelled from Genoa, Italy (1598), then

	12 Jews expelled from Sicily(1493)

	14 The Church burned confiscated Jewish books in Rome(1601)

	31 Henry II forbade Jews in England to build new synagogues(1253)

    Feb. 6 First auto-da-fe of the Spanish Inquisition(1481)

	13 Jews of Speyer massacred(1195)

	21 Jews expelled from German city Ratisbon(1519)

	26 The Jews were expelled from all papal territory except Rome
and Ancona(1569)

	28 First auto-da-fe in the New World(1574)

    Mar. 9 Pope Innocent IV ordered that the Talmud be burned(1244)

	18 More than eighty French Jews were burned at the stake in
Bray(1191)

	28 Turkish authorities expelled Jews from Jaffa and Tel
Aviv(1917)

	31 King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella signed the order expelling
Jews from Spain(1492)

    Apr. 2 Jews expelled from Sicily(1492)

	 5 The Polish army executed thirty five Jews for handing out
Joint Distribution Committee packages to the Jews of Pinsk(1919)

	23 Jews prohibited from living in France
	 
	28 A progrom at Elizavetgrad was followed by a series of progroms
throughout the Ukraine and neighboring provinces(1881)

	30 A royal proclaimation instructs Jews to leave Spain by the end
of July(1492)

    May  7 Empress Catherine I ordered all Jews expelled from the
Ukraine(1727)

	13 Nonnative Jews expelled from Bohemia(1763)

	19 Iraqi Jews began to depart for Israel(1950)

	31 Sigmund III of Poland tried to keep Jews out of Riga(1593)

   June	15 Many Jews were killed during a riot in Safed(1834)

	16 Jews expelled from Florence(1527)

	19 Loius IX of France decreed all Jews must wear yellow
badge(1269)

	24 Russian Minister of the Interior instructed local authorities
to suppress Zionism among the Jews(1903)

   July 11 Jews expelled from Little Russia(1739)

	19 Thirty eight Jews burned in Brandenburg as a result of a
Host-declaration libel(1810)

	22 Jews of France arrested at the order of King Philip(1306)

	25 Emperor Leopold I expelled the Jews from Vienna(1670)

	30 Citizens of Nuremburg forbidden to borrow from Jews(1539)

    Aug  5 More than 300 Jews were killed in a massacre in
Barcelona(1391)

	11 Marranos who escaped from Spain fall victim to auto-da-fe in
Lima(1635)

	16 Laws regulating the condition of Jews of Saxony issued(1838)

	18 Jews Oath abolished in Austria(1846)

	19 Maximillian I orders the destruction of Jewish books(1509)

	23 Jews throughout Palestine were attacked by Arab rioters(1929)

   Sept  3 Many Jews were killed in a riot during coronation of
Richard the Lion Hearted(1189)

        17 Jews expelled from France by King Charles(1394)

	21 Swedish Government revoked privileges previously granted
Swedish Jews(1838)

	24 King Louis XIV ordered Jews expelled from French possessions
in America(1683)

    Oct  4 Jews deprived of rights by Vichy government in France(1940)

	 5 Ludwig IX expelled the Jews from Lower Bavaria(1450)
	
        21 Emperor Joseph II of Austria abolished distinctive Jewish
dress(1781)

	23 Jews in Barbados forbidden to engage in retail trade(1668)

	30 Pope Innocent XI forbade Jews in Rome to engage in
banking(1682)

	31 Date by which Jews had to leave Portugal(1497)

    Nov  2 Jews expelled from France and French domains(1394) 

	 9 Kristallnact(1938)

	14 Jews no longer permitted to attend German schools(1938)

	23 Jews expelled from Naples(1510)

	26 The Council of Clermont proclaimed the First Crusade, that led
to the massacre of many Jewish communities(1092)

    Dec  4 Jews ordered to leave Portugal(1496)

	16 Jews expelled from France(1394)

	18 Jews expelled from Prague, Bohemia and Moravia(1774)

	25 King Frederick III of Sicily required all Jews to wear
badge(1369)

	27 Jews were prohibited from practicing medicine in Romania(1868)


	So here we have a recurrent theme spanning ten centuries and many
different areas. We might assume that this rejoicing record compiled
by the Jewish community is that which they were able to find but that
the full account, if records were available, might exceed this by many
times.
	Holocaust books give us a more up to date account about raging
resentments among a variety of countries in this century, especially
in their accounts of Einsatzgruppens, where we might get the idea that
people in Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, White Russia and else where, had
more to do with whatever really happened than the Germans. 
	We also have to recognize, aside from any moral judgements, that
whatever really happened during WW II is a continuation of the listed
history above.
	Since these bewailings of dates of reactions are always devoid of
discussing any extenuating circumstances we are left to wonder about
the ultimate cause and effect of the reoccurrence. Nevertheless, one
example of the above has found it's way into history books as to any
details. This is the Spanish expulsion of Jews in 1492. 
        The historical account of Jews in Spain starts off with them
finding their way into the land as tagalongs to the invading Moorish
army, thus making them complicity in the invasion. After a few
centuries the Moors were rightfully ejected from Spain, but the Jews
were allowed to stay, evidently in consideration of their biblical
connection. In spite of this initial forgiving accommodation a change
of heart occurred. Evidently the Jews had saturated much of the trade,
including the agricultural chain, and eventually it got to the point
of intolerance and the Spanish reacted.
	About three years ago Spain allowed itself to be badgered into
giving a formal apology for this history.
 
	The one thing that is certain from the overall history of the
Jews,  by their own accounting, aside from any discussion of cause and
effect, is that for some reason many generations in many nations
allowed the Jews to establish themselves but for some reason became
irritated to the point of severe reaction, which the Jews call
"persecution".
	It is evident that great rage was directed towards the Jews, and
we must recognize that the Jews repeated history suggests that they
are the ultimate responsibility for whatever happened to them.  They
can propagandize all they want about how brilliant they are, how
benevolent they are, but their own history does not support it.
	The most repeated history in the history of the world.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:24 PDT 1996
Article: 60855 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:43:58 GMT
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Every day yellow school buses line up outside of the Holocaust
museums. The American kids file out and into the interiors of the
Ministries of Love where three fingers are held up and the kids are
ask, 'How many do you see?' The kids shout 'We see three'. The guide
says 'No. You see two'. The kids all yell back 'No we see three'. Then
they are taken through the Ministry of Love, they can't turn around,
or roam around, they have to run the full package. At the end, the
guide holds up three fingers and says, 'Now, how many do you see?' and
the kids all say 'Two'.
	Sort of like what happened to Winston Smith in George Orwell's
"1984" only without the rats being put to their throats. Not quite,
but the school curriculum requires.

	                                    





From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Aug 29 10:51:25 PDT 1996
Article: 60864 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:29:16 GMT
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	Aug. 8, 1996

	Letter to the editor, New York Times.

"Israel Must Sharpen Its High-Tech Edge"

	"While we laud Prime Minister B. Netanyahu's efforts to adopt a
free - Market economy ... it is clear that the country's current
economic boom is a result of its edge in high technology innovation.
	More than half the country's exports are generated by its 1800
high-tech companies. Intel, Motorola, Microsoft and I.B.M. are just a
few of the American companies attracted to Israel. Of the more than 60
Israeli companies listed on American stock exchanges, the vast
majority are high-tech. In fact, Canada is the only foreign country
with more companies on the American stock exchanges.
	Israel already has the most scientists and engineers per capita
in the world engaged in research and development (135 per 10,000
compared with 35 per 10,000 for second place United States). But even
this is not enough. While Israeli high-tech industry has been growing
nearly 20 percent annually, Israel's universities are graduating just
enough engineers to replace those who retire each year.
	This gap may turn more acute as the influx of scientists and
engineers from the former Soviet Union slows as Israel's young people
are attracted to more 'glamorous' professions like law and business.
	For the first time in the history of Israel, economic self
sufficiency is within grasp. Insuring a new generation of outstanding,
innovative engineers and scientists is the key to that future."

	The letter was submitted by a Ben Z. Sosewitz and Melvyn H. Bloom
of the "American Society for Technion-Israel Institute of Technology"

                     -------------------


	"1800 high-tech companies"? Will anyone ever have access to a
list of these alleged 1800 "high-tech" companies? Will we ever know
what actually constitutes a "company"? Will we ever know what these
companies make?
	This flagrant tossing around of high numbers when it suits the
Jewish cause is one that occurs frequently in Holocaust accounts. 

	Notice how the only companies named are American companies. The
Jews in this nation are very active in coercing U.S. corporate people,
with the aid of our congress, to turn over part of their productions
to the Jewish state.

	Notice how they imply the stupid America in relation to the
brilliant Jew by stating their per capita of scientists and engineers
exceeds ours by 4 to 1.

	Notice how they assert they are the highest per capita brilliant
in the whole world.

	Its all bull. This theme of the brilliant Jew appears with
regularity in our medias. They make some extraordinary claims. Full,
half and quarter page ads rave the theme constantly. 

	Just to give a brief example of how ridiculous the Israel/U.S.
technology intrigues can be, is one where EX governor Florio of N.J.
after returning from a trip to Israel announced he had given them a
grant to develop a special hybrid tomato for that state, who's main
crop is tomatoes. Florio said he made the decision because of their
Volcani Center's reputation and because, get this one, "New Jersey's
climate is similar to Israel's". One of the main repeated themes by
Jewish egos is that the "Jews made the desert bloom". This would mean
that N.J., the "Garden State", is a desert.
	The project was said to have to take four years. As it turned
out, two companies in the U.S. had already developed a strain of
tomato with post harvest durability, one of them in the Garden State
itself.

	Just recently the CIA released a report that the Jews are active
in stealing U.S. technology, a charge that was made before.

	This activity will increase as the U.S. gets deeper into economic
collapse, since the Jews know they will not be able to sustain
extracting the billions that are given to them each year. They will be
very active coercing U.S. corporate heads to turn over vital workings
so they can us it as leverage to sustain U.S. support for the Jewish
state.		  	  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 08:40:33 PDT 1996
Article: 60971 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:05:44 GMT
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Question:
	The reason the Jews are so obsessed with bellowing the Holocaust
story is:

	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
money. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 08:40:34 PDT 1996
Article: 60990 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: World's Sick of the Holocaust
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:16:49 GMT
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	Recent developments show that the World is sick of the Holocaust.
For years the Jews have been pushing around demanding apologies,
demanding the story be required school curriculum, demanding 
$$$$$ Billions $$$$$$. 
	Holocaust museums springing up like weeds all over the place. 	
	Daily fare on TVs and in newspapers.
	"Holocaust", "Holocaust", "Holocaust" a thousand times a year. 
     Year in, and year out. Decade after decade.

	The recent precedent developments in just the last number of
months have been,

	In Italy the government said if the Jews want any $$$$$ they have
to give it up themselves.
	A leader of a Yugoslavian state said the Holocuast was a hoax.
	The Swiss government had some strong words about the Jews
persistant demand for $$$$$.
	The Germans stiffened up on giving any more $$$$$ to the Jews.
	The Germans got Japan to cancel a Holocaust tour.
	The French aborted a aquatic Holocaust theme for the Olympics.
	The Jews tried to capitalize on the Olympics in Atlanta, but were
turned away.

	Thus we have the beginning of the last phase to the fall of the
lie. The World throwing up.
	     
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 08:40:35 PDT 1996
Article: 61035 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "The Seekers" and the effect of name-calling
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:40:34 GMT
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>This text is from a discussion group which I understand is considered to
>be public.  A few people here will readily recognize the source, which is
>unimportant.  The post is genuine.  It is from a Jewish participant who
>before this had not entered the discussion, at least not recently.  I have
>x'd out names because I still find it distasteful to quote email, public
>or not.  This message sheds a lot of light on the subject of this thread,
>and the dynamics of this newsgroup.
>
>***********
>Argument for Argument's Sake -- Part 2 of 2
>
>
>"'Now, you just give me your thesis and I will immediately destroy it'
>--- this is the characteristic essence of the Talmudic intellectual
>sport, a sport which requires keenness and logical precision.  The
>eagerness for this intellectual sport and the desire to gain the
>admiration of one's fellows have brought about the habit on the part of
>many
>students and scholars of avoiding the study of the Talmud in ordinary and
>regular succession, and of choosing special subjects or hypotheses under
>the new interpretation(s)...
>
>     "Whoever has not observed two rabbis or scholars conducting a
>discussion
>on some subject never saw a mental game between two intellectual-artists
>played on the highest logical level.
>
>     "The Torah is learned through the intellectual exercise of the
>scholars.
> Whoever is able to manipulate logic, whoever has a keen mind and can
>bring
>forth a new interpretation or new reasons for an old interpretation may be
>compared to a rich man who has all sorts of money, silver and gold; he may
>also be compared to one who sells only the best of oil and never lacks for
>a
>customer.
>
>     "The Hebrew word for argument is 'Pilpul' and stems from the word for
>pepper.  And, indeed, the Talmudic arguments are as pungent and strong
>as pepper.  The chief method is to take a sentence or some subject,
>analyze it into its many parts, and then to compare these parts with
>other analogous sentences or subjects on the basis of language, content,
>logic, etc."
>
>When Germanics and Gentiles are on one side of a debate about an aspect of
>the holocaust and a person skilled in pilpulism like RRRRRRRR is on the
>other side, there is no contest.  The Germanic student is looking for fact
>and logic, and an end to the argument.  The pilpulist is looking for fact
>and
>logic, too, but is also absolutely committed to avoid agreeing with any
>criticism of any aspect of the holocaust, and is also delighting in the
>swing
>of the argument, its rhythm, its glitter, and its rhyme.  Thus you see
>there
>is no contest.  You Germanics will never win an argument with a pilpulist
>like RRRRRRRRR because the contest is taking place on too many levels,
>only one of which you are aware of and interested in.
>
>It is tempting for some of you Gentiles to try to reduce RRRRRRRRR's
>pilpulisms to logic, but he can always leap ahead of you due to his
>superior
>training.  Until you can address the holocaust on all three levels, you
>will
>never settle any aspect of any debate about it.
>
>MW
>Los Gatos
>
>End
>********

	Basically what is described here is, chutzpa. 2 + 2 = 3 and or 5,
but not 4.

	The person refers to "logic". Hebrew logic is analogous to child
logic. 

	One might think the Jews would send in their best 'pepperers' to
do battle on alt.revisionism and show how they work on "three levels".


	Those already out here are definitely having a tough time. Where
are the eminent rabbis? The skilled logical tacticians?

	The problem for them is they think their chutzpa can work on
something like the Holocaust debate. But in the end run it is like a
Jew trying to be a sports star by using chutzpa. Something like
running out on a field and doing a lot of boasting, but when the ball
is thrown, he tries to catch it and it bounces off his forehead.

	Its obvious chutzpa has not been something they can use in the
world of art either. 

	The funny thing is, when a Jew tries to pull off some of this
three level logic, all you have to say is "Hey is this chutzpa?" and
it's like sticking a pin in a balloon. Pop.

	If this three level chutzpa logic is so awesome why do the Jews
resort to trying to have the Holcoaust revisionist banned. Why do they
call them "neo-Nazis" and "anti-Semitic"? Why do they refuse to
debate? Because their little techniques ain't worth a damn when the
challenge is made. 

	Dvd, why don't you invite this idiot out here so he can show his
stuff. Tell him to bring the top three level logician "scholars" he
can find.	
_______________________________________________________
>
>"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad.">
>
>David Thomas
>CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 13:04:48 PDT 1996
Article: 83115 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:21:07 GMT
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>         "1800 high-tech companies"? Will anyone ever have access to a
> list of these alleged 1800 "high-tech" companies? Will we ever know
> what actually constitutes a "company"? Will we ever know what these
> companies make?

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. 

Many of these companies are undoubtedly public, which means you can
look them up on the stock exchange. For that matter, a brief search of
the web could probably tell you where a list of Israeli companies can
be found. Hell, why not write to the author of the letter?

	You show it if it's so easy.

Aren't you the same fellow who claimed a whole mess of churches were
destroyed by the Israelis, when in fact they still exist? (or was that
your partner in crime doyal? )

	Where was that? Show it. You say it was me "(or was it ...)"
someone else? Why don't you just show it instead of saying "or was
it"? 

	Aren't you the one who says the Germans built Crema II and III
underground so they could get on the roof to pour in the pellets? What
happened to the 'Harmon Report' that used to be in Nizkor?

>         This flagrant tossing around of high numbers when it suits the
> Jewish cause is one that occurs frequently in Holocaust accounts.

"Interesting conclusion, seeing as how you haven't even investigated
the claim yet.  Will you retract it if it turns out that Israel in
fact has over 1800 high tech firms?"

	No. If you list them all you will have retracted it yourself.
Just a list of names won't do it. You have to show it isn't all a
bunch of racist lies.

"I also remember you claimed that Israel didn't have enough acreage to

plant all the trees in their reforestation program.  Your calculations
were original, to say the least."

	You mean where I posted the expose about the ad by the Jews in
the U.S. papers claiming to have planted 200,000,000 trees in an
attempt at showing us how ecologically minded they are? Where did I
say anything about not enough room? Show it. 

>         Notice how they assert they are the highest per capita brilliant
> in the whole world.

"Fortunately, we Americans have tom moran's incisive logic and
eloquent
writing to properly put those upstart Jews back into place.

Your usage of English is as creative as your math."

 
>         Its all bull. This theme of the brilliant Jew appears with
> regularity in our medias. They make some extraordinary claims. Full,
> half and quarter page ads rave the theme constantly.

Ahh, i'll bite. Cite four of these ads.

	One of them has already been cited. The 200,000,000 trees. The
letter is another. 

	The Weissman Institute is another. The ADL and the World Jewish
Congress is another. Myriads. Get the N.Y. Times and the L.A. Times.
Witness the ego.
 
>         Just recently the CIA released a report that the Jews are active
> in stealing U.S. technology, a charge that was made before.

And your source for this is....?

	L.A. Times, "France, Israel Cited in CIA Espionage Study" 8/15/96
The articles always tie France in as being another nation involved in
technological espionage to take the edge off Israel. In fact it was
France a few years ago who charged the U.S. with the espionage.
	Either way, we don't give France billions $$$$$ every year.
France is not reliant on the U.S. for it's existence. For the Jews to
commit the acts is an act of contempt. It's just a continuation of
Pollardism.
 
>         This activity will increase as the U.S. gets deeper into economic
> collapse, [..]

You haven't been following the stock market over the past two 
years, have you? (hint: it broke at least three records in 1995.)

	I follow the stock market pretty close. The higher it goes, the
more unstable it gets.
	The premise for a stock is ownership in shares of a company. If
you invest in a company and it doesn't pay any dividend or a very low
one, it is basically a worthless thing. Most companies don't have the
margin to pay dividends.
	People don't make money in the stock market by collecting
dividends. The way you make money is to buy and sell higher. There are
always going to be losers in the end run. 
	Just looking at the premises cited in the papers as to why the
stock market goes up of down shows there is nothing behind it.
	Moran predicts a devastating collapse.



> since the Jews know they will not be able to sustain
> extracting the billions that are given to them each year. They will be
> very active coercing U.S. corporate heads to turn over vital workings
> so they can us it as leverage to sustain U.S. support for the Jewish
> state.

What a triumphant return for one of my favorite dunderheads. Welcome
back tommy.

Brian Harmon

	A little childish finale of name calling shows you were not
content with your other stuff. It is a sign.
 
==========================
brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 13:04:50 PDT 1996
Article: 83138 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: "Hope is Back"
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:23:32 GMT
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				  "Hope is Back"

	Blazing headline quote by Clinton in the L.A. and N.Y. Times.

Seeing how he is running for a second term after a first term, we
might wonder where the "Hope is Back" from. 




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 14:13:13 PDT 1996
Article: 61053 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Request For Information 
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:31:16 GMT
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drobnicki@ycvax.york.cuny.edu wrote:

>In Article <3225c283.93375615@news.zilker.net>
>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>					
>	[snip]
>>>	A leader of a Yugoslavian state said the Holocuast was a hoax.
>>
>>Who was this?
>
>Mr. Moran is most likely referring to Franjo Tudjman, Pres. of 
>Croatia, whose book _Bespuca:  Povjesne Zbiljnosti_ (_Wastelands: 
>Historical Truth_) questions the number of Jewish victims of the 
>Holocaust.  However, it has been public knowledge for several 
>years that Tudjman claimed the passage in the book was 
>mistranslated, and even apologized for it.  See "Croatian Chief 
>Sorry for Holocaust Views," _New York Times_, 15 Feb. 1994, sec. 
>A, p. 12.  If I'm not mistaken, there was even a letter from the 
>Croatian embassy published in an issue of the _Journal of 
>Historical Review_ saying that Tudjman was _not_ a revisionist.  
>But the revisionists, desperate to appear legitimate, continue to 
>mistakenly cite Tudjman as "proof."
>
>John Drobnicki
>Reference Librarian
>York College/CUNY
>"I speak for no one but myself."

	"Proof"? Proof of what?

Anyway, "mistranslated" or whatever, it was said. Who knows if
pressure wan't put on him by the U.S. to retract it. It seems people
are always retracting statements they initially say about Jewish
things. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 14:13:14 PDT 1996
Article: 61055 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INEVITABLE
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:26:31 GMT
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abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>	The demise of the Holocaust story as fact is inevitable. It is on
>>it's way to becoming the rout of the millennia. Nothing can hold it
>>back. As sure as the tides come and go, the big lie is on the verge of
>>global exposure.
>
>Oh, yes, you are right Mr. Moran. More and more books about holocaust
>deniers are published and it is really only a matter of time when "revisionism"
>will become a new area of historiography. Then their lying will be exposed
>and analysed more thoroughly than ever.
>
>Nele

	Keep me posted as they appear. Maybe you could give some of the
titles that are out there right now. Don't bother citing Lipstatd's
book, I already know this one. Any new ones better be more substancial
than hers. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 17:29:52 PDT 1996
Article: 61129 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:34:34 GMT
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	For anyone who has witnessed the constant onslaught of the
Holocaust story, in our medias and in books, it becomes apparent it is
almost always the Jews who are the ones who bemoan the story and no
one else.

	It doesn't matter if the whole U.S. House of Representatives
voted to condemn any one who doubts the story. It doesn't matter if it
takes a number of people to make a documentary. It doesn't matter that
many can be found in the donations list in Holocaust museums. It
doesn't matter if nations have made Holocaust revisionism illegal.

     None of it matters in analyzing and recognizing who are the ones
who have to do the actual bellowing themselves. They are alone. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Aug 30 17:29:53 PDT 1996
Article: 61134 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holohuggers:  jewish economic boycotts are OK
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:38:35 GMT
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On 29 Aug 1996 07:03:25 -0400, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>
>
>>Also, jewish economic boycotts render "democracy" a sham, because if
>>someone expresses an idea which jews wish to silence, then that someone
>>can be threatened into silence by a jewish economic boycott, just as St.
>>Martin's was for having signed a book contract with David Irving.  This
>>same jewish money-power can, through the same threat of economic boycott,
>>also silence the victim from even publicizing the very fact that he was so
>>coerced.  That way the public at large never becomes fully aware of the
>>power of this effective tool of political regulation.
>
>Kurt. Now it's threats of an economic boycott? It didn't start out
>this way. Your started out calling it threats of violence. 
>
>Backpeddling again?

	Its interesting the U.S. boycotts a number of nations, with most
of them being Israel's enemy. Evidentally the responsible parties for
this policy think they have a certain moral righteousness that gives
them the right.  
	Perhaps this is what might take to further the cause of shaking
off Zionism in the U.S. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 31 10:05:02 PDT 1996
Article: 61234 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Missing Polish Jews-I wonder who's missing you now..
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:38:42 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Obviously there was considerable widespread and organized backlash
against the Jews by civilian partisans, even after the war. What
brought it on we may never know, but the usual recommended procedure
would to investigate so it didn't happen again. This would mean that
maybe the Jews should look into it to see if they played any role in
creating the resentment.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 31 10:05:03 PDT 1996
Article: 61257 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Missing Polish Jews-I wonder who's missing you now..
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:37:18 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Section of original post:

"June 1946:  Thousands of Jews being repatriated from Russia to Poland
were fleeing westward and southward in mid-June to escape waves of
anti-Semitic terror at the hands of outlaw bands.  AP correspondent
Larry Allen lkreported from Warsaw that approximately 1,000 Jewish
slayings had been verified in the past ten months and that the toll
was being increased by attacks onn repatriation convoys. The
government was severely punishing the bandits but their activities
were so widespread that it was difficult to provide adequate
protection.  Poland's Semitic population was approximately 200,000 and
was being swollen by repatriations from Russia.  A vast majority of
the repatriates wanted to go to Palestine or America.  Many were
trying to leave Poland illegally, crossing over into Germany or
Czechslovakia."
                   --------------------------

	Moran's formula for dealing with Holocaust numbers seems to
result in figures these accounts give.

	The Holocaust story tellers claim there were 3,000,000 Polish
Jews in prewar Poland. The formula for finding a more probable number
when dealing with Holocaust population claims is to divide any numbers
by 10. This formula is figured in part by considering previous claims
that 700,000 Jews were in France which is now put at 70,000. Thus we
divide 10 into the 3,000,000 claim and come up with 300,000 Polish
Jews.
	It seems that most of the Polish Jews made it through the war,
and the reason there were none remaining after is because they left
and/or were moved East. 

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 31 10:05:03 PDT 1996
Article: 61260 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: real showerheads
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:32:42 GMT
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alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[real showerheads] [Friday August 30 1996 04:56][*][0]*>
>
> MG> intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control inflow and
> MG> outtake of gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide
> MG> powder was used to generate the lethal smoke. From the gas
> MG> chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory."
>
>A good description by a non-chemist of Zyklon-B.
>
>So?
>
>You're spamming again, I see.

	You call it "spamming". Your personal little thought. What it
shows in reality is the old stories against those now accepted. It
shows the inconsitency. It shows how the testimony was bogus. It shows
an old account that is not part of the Holocaust promotional
assertions today. It shows how the story changes.  
	You call it "spamming" and I call it
Neo/paleo-Deholocaustolithification. 


>++GMAIL 1.3++ I know that you're trying. Very trying.
>--
>|Fidonet:  Alec Grynspan 1:2424/13
>|Internet: alec@gryn.org
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 31 10:05:04 PDT 1996
Article: 61261 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beaulieu break the 1 Meg psychological bareer
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:33:34 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>I havn't yet receive any response to my question about the strange
>way Nizkor keep track of people's posts here, but for a while, I was 
>looking at my name in the people directory: it happened! I broke the
>1 Meg bareer recently I joined A. Baron, Tom Moran, M. Giwer and a couple
>of others in the millionaire club (while Matt may have join it after a month).
>Perhaps one could say I'm a bit emotive (or nut), but this is an important
>moment in my life, perhaps as much as when I swam a 100 meters below 1 minute 
>15 seconds.
 
	Happy megabyte to ya, Jean-Francois.


As to your above sentence,
"I haven't yet received any response to my question about the strange
way Nizkor keeps track of people's posts ..."

	May I compliment you on the nice way you have made comment on
Nizkor's ass backwards corrupt practice of archiving their opponents
posts.

                                                            Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 31 10:05:05 PDT 1996
Article: 61262 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why are "revisionists" gutless jellyfish?
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:33:57 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In message <32230e5d.822501@news.pacificnet.net> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran)Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:04:36 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>:>
>:>>I wonder why it is that such a large percentage of "revisionists" post under
>:>>pseudonyms, or anonymously?  If they are such great and brave believers in the
>:>>truth, why can't they screw up the courage to post under their real names?  I
>:>>have nothing against pseudonyms and anonymity in general, but it is intriguing
>:>>that *this* particular crew favours it to such a high degerr.
>:>>
>:>>Could it be that they are gutless jellyfish?  Or are they secretly aware what
>:>>scumbags they are and don't want their mommies to find out?
>:>>
>:>>I hope this message isn't taken as provocative.  I really want to know.  };->
>:>
>:>
>:>	While I think they should come out with their real names,
>:>"McFee", I think they may be fearing the energy of the socially and
>:>politically correct, lashing out at them, with they having no recourse
>:>to defend themselves. Many totalitarian regimes have been faught with
>:>the heroes having to resort to ficticious code names.
>
>Thank you, Mr. Moran.  I am glad that you agree with me that Skippy, Stele and
>the rest are gutless jellyfish.

	Of course "McFee", you would have the same definition for any
ficticious names that come out on the side of the Holocaust, I take
it. Next time it happens, "McFee", I'll call your attention to it.

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 31 13:42:35 PDT 1996
Article: 61299 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Remember the Children"
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:44:31 GMT
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	"Remember the Children" is the most prevalent motto found posted
around the premises of the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. It
is displayed on the inside and on the outside.
	This motto "Remember the Children" definitely does not apply to
the Palestinian children who have their houses blown up or are barred
>from  medical treatment, have their food supply threatened, their
schools shut down and have been mowed down by bullets, all by the will
and by the tolerance of the Jewish state of Israel, which itself is
the child of the Holocaust story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 31 15:59:04 PDT 1996
Article: 83685 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:28:24 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Another point to show this article and any others like it are
total bull is the fact that Israel has been in existence for 50 years,
and we still do not see a flood of brilliance coming from the racist
state. All we see are words saying how brilliant the Jews are.

	After all, Japan has risen to great technological heights in the
same period, all by themselves. We see the results, we use the
results, the results are concrete.

	You can not create innovative brillince by just saying it,
wishing it, thinking it.

	If the machinations of Jewish innovative brillance were true, we
should expect it to stand out here in the U.S., like Henry Ford, Tommy
Edison, Bill Gates and the rest.

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Aug 31 17:02:13 PDT 1996
Article: 61331 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:31:59 GMT
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>Not all Israelis support their government's policies.
>Not all supporters of Israeli policies re: the Palestinians are Jews.
>Not all Jews are Zionists.
>(For further clarification, see http://www.ariga.com/ )

>Mr. Moran, is that so difficult?

>Laurinda Stryker

	I've seen this argument put forth before, when the facts are
given blunt like. 

	The fact is, the latest election in Israel shows that the
majority chose the person who said he was going to break the
"agreements" and U.N. Resolutions. They voted for it. 
	The fact is that almost all if not all the commentary in the U.S.
papers by Jews was favorable.
	The fact is that while the Jews in Israel continue with their
unaesthetic policies, Jews in this country plug it as someplace
wonderful and righteous.
	The fact is that no demonstrations outside of a few little,
token, low turnout gatherings by "Peace Now", have taken place in
Israel in objection to Zionist policies.
	The facts are that one of the many absurd announcements out of
the Jewish community is "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism".
	Now if you want to point to some little obscure token website to
show that all this is not the real meat of analysis, go ahead.

	I suspect it is rift with double talk and I will check it out
down the road. Til then, you would have one believe that by pointing
to one exception out of the myriad of opposites this should be what
people conclude on? 	 



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