The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0596


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May  1 17:46:35 PDT 1996
Article: 34087 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:16:17 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:02:26 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 12:48:28 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>You have been invited by several people to prove your charge, and you
>>>have evaded doing so through several exchanges until now. If this is
>>>all the "evidence" you have that Mr. McVay has tampered with the
>>>report, then I would suggest that you *cannot* prove your charge that
>>>the report has been tampered with. I would suggest you withdraw the
>>>allegation as unproven.
>>
>>	We'll just have to proceed along and wait and see if McVay is
>>going to post the "hard copy" and committ himself to saying he didn't
>>tamper with the report, that the "introduced" material in the report
>>is by the Polish researchers.
>>	Whatever you say here is one thing, and what is in the
>>sequence of exchange thus far is another.
>
>In other words, you cannot prove that Mr. McVay has tampered with the
>report and want him to prove that he hasn't.
>
>And how do you expect him to prove that he hasn't tampered it with the
>report? By demanding that he produce "hard copy." But what, exactly,
>does that mean? You want him to mail you a copy of the report? Order
>your own. Or do you him want to post the "real" report? How would you
>know that what he posted was the "real" report?
>
>And then what? Will he have to follow up every document on Nizkor with
>a message to alt.revisionism declaring that he has not tampered with
>any documents? will he have to mail you "hard copy?" To satisfy you?
>
>Basically, you are saying that Mr. McVay is guilty until proven
>innocent.
>
>How about this? You post your evidence that Mr. McVay has tampered
>with the report or withdraw the charge as unfounded.

	Where is McVay? Why does McVay respond with the nitwit
statements?

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May  1 17:46:35 PDT 1996
Article: 34089 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:27:28 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>> karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>> 
>> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> 
>> >>	Nazis were Germans and Germans were Nazis. Don't forget the
>> >>Goldhagen book and all the other insinuations in Holocasut material.
>> 
>> >Goldhagen said no such thing. But I expect you will continue to
>> >attribute your own pathetic strawmen to him rather than go to the
>> >trouble of reading his book.
>> 
>> 	Then were did his 50,000,000 number come from or did someone here
>> misquote him?
>
>BINGO!!!  Tom Moran misquoted a _N.Y. Times_ column by A.M. Rosenthal 
>about Goldhagen's book!  As far as I know, NO ONE who has read Goldhagen 
>has said that Goldhagen accuses all 50 million Germans of complicity in 
>the Holocaust.  
>
>I'll donate $20 to the Institute for Historical Review if you or Moran 
>can cite a specific post *by someone who's read Goldhagen* that says that 
>Goldhagen makes such a claim.  No one in this group has.

	Maybe you better go back and read the post and see if it says
what you think it says. See if you can see where it says Rosenthal was
quoting Goldhagen. You should see is where it says Rosenthal escalated
it to 50,000,000. If you find where it says what you have interpreted
come back with a double "Bingo".

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"We are now living in an era where the wall between news and 
>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage 
>in David Crosby's septum."
>	--Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May  1 17:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 34090 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:27:55 GMT
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Martin Fox  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>
>>	Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"? Like if one should say
>>'The Jews kill children and justify it'?  The Jews roust whole
>>civilian societies and say it is a good thing'.
>
>Are you saying "a very few", "some". "many", or "all"?  How I would react 
>depends on your adjective.  But, with the adjective that I might find 
>non-antisemitic I could just as well apply the entire statement to any ethnic 
>group, so why pick on us?

	I would say 'most'. The two examples above are well documented
through the many editorials they have written, the letters, the ads,
and the quotes in articles. As the last and very recent Jewish
invasion of Lebanon the documentation is still fresh and at the
surface. 
	During the Intifada (Childrens War) the excuse given for the
justification was Israel is a democracy and an ally of the U.S. During
the Bernard Baruch incident it was a 'justifiable insanity defense'.
This time around, the excuses consist of such way out things as a move
that would win Peres the re-election. Goofy stuff.
	The fact is, many Jews and their organizations spend a lot
time selling America on their deeds and nary any say anything against.

If I made a deal with you where I would give you $100 for every
article you could produce from a major newspaper to show Jews speaking
out against something Jewish and you were to give me $5 for everyone I
could produce to show it the other way, you would owe me money. 


>Martin Fox
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May  1 17:46:37 PDT 1996
Article: 34092 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.rights.human,alt.beograd,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Europe's most dangerous Holocaust revisionist
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:28:24 GMT
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anon-remailer@utopia.hacktic.nl (Anonymous) wrote:

>
>   A Plan That's Bad to the Bone
>   
>   By Walter Reich
>   
>   The Wall Street Journal, April, 3, 1996 
>   
>   In recent years, Franjo Tudjman, the President of Croatia, has
>   attempted to falsify the Holocaust's history. He has acknowledged that
>   Jews were killed during World War II, but has insisted that the number
>   of Jewish victims has been wildly exaggerated. President Tudjman has
>   now escalated his assault on truth by announcing a plan to mix the
>   bones of the Holocaust's victims in Croatia with those of its
>   perpetrators. He wants, in short, to rewrite history with a shovel.
>   For the sake of the future as well as the past, he must be stopped.

	"He must be stopped"? What would this mad dog writer stop him
with? Counter argument? Shoot him. Have the U.S. threaten him? Make it
a law on Earth, 'Thou shalt not doubt the Holocaust?

  
>   President Tudjman heads a new country carved out of former Yugoslavia
>   in 1991. A previous country called the Independent State of Croatia
>   was set up during World War II after the German and Italian invasions
>   and run by the fascist Ustashe regime as a puppet state.
>
>   A central Ustashe aim was to cleanse Croatia of "foreign" elements. It
>   established death and concentration camps in which it murdered
>   hundreds of thousands of non-Croats -- Serbs, Jews and Gypsies. The
>   Germans encouraged the Ustashe forces to murder Croatia's Jews; the
>   Germans then could focus their Holocaust operations on the Jews in the
>   countries they controlled directly, thus achieving their goal that
>   much more quickly of exterminating all of Europe's Jews.
>   
>   It is this bit of history that president Tudjman has found
>   inconvenient. He has falsely minimized the number of Serbs and Jews
>   murdered by Ustashe regime, as well as the number of Jews murdered by
>   Nazi Germany in all of Europe. He has asserted that, altogether, only
>   900,000 European Jews were killed during the Holocaust, arguing that
>   the generally accepted number - more than six times the one he cites -
>   was based on "emotionally biased testimonies and exaggerated data."
>   For such assertions, President Tudjman has been widely, sharply and
>   justly rebuked. He has also stated that the main characteristics of
>   Jews are "selfishness, craftiness, unreliability, miserliness,
>   underhandedness and secrecy." Having been called an anti-Semite for
>   expressing these sentiments, he has since apologized for them.
>   
	A lashing series of announcements, nothing more.   
>   
>   
>   
>   Now President Tudjman wants to go beyond the distortion of history. He
>   has announced plans to mingle the bones of the victims of Croatia's
>   Ustashe regime with another set of bones, including those of the
>   regime's soldiers, many of whom were responsible for those victims'
>   brutal deaths. The soldiers' bones would be disinterred from the soil
>   of various cemeteries in Croatia and inserted into the soil of the
>   largest Ustashe death camp, Jasenovac. The site of the camp, now a
>   memorial, contains the remains of many of the innocents who were
>   killed there by the Ustashe forces - by some estimates, several
>   hundred thousand such innocents.
>   
>   By transforming the Jasenovac memorial, Mr. Tudjman recently told the
>   Croatian Parliament, "a tribute to all the victims on Croatia's way to
>   independence and sovereignty secured." His justification was quite
>   plain: "Because of historical and also current political reasons, the
>   Jasenovac memorial should be altered so as to become a memorial of all
>   Croatian war victims."
>   
>   President Tudjman wants the world, and his own people, to believe that
>   all those bones are morally equal. He wants to confer upon those
>   perpetrators the innocence of their victims. He wants to make sure
>   that the Ustashe regime, whose aim was independence from the Serbs, is
>   no longer a source of national embarrassment. His plan to rearrange
>   the bones of history is consistent with the effort being carried out
>   in Croatia today to rehabilitate the reputation of the Ustashe
>   regime's murderous leader, Ante Pavelic.
>   
>   The problem here is not only that President Tudjman's plan, if it is
>   carried out, would defile sacred grounds. Even worse, it would confuse
>   future Croatians about what actually happened on that ground. They
>   might simply assume that many people had died in the Balkans at some
>   time in the past, that there was no focused mass killing on the ethnic
>   or racial basis by the Ustashe regime during World War II, and that
>   there was no Holocaust. And this forgery of Croatia's Holocaust
>   landscape would become a perfect model for other countries elsewhere
>   in Europe eager to rearrange their landscapes of their own Holocaust
>   histories.
>   
>   Croatians have much at stake here. The soil of their region is
>   drenched not only with the blood of Jews, Serbs and Croats, now
>   decades old, but also with the much fresher blood of a new generation
>   of innocents killed during the carnage of the past few years - that of
>   Muslims, Croats and Serbs. Unless the full reality of past savageries
>   stemming from historical, religious and territorial enmities are
>   acknowledged with honesty, and unless the wounds are allowed to heal,
>   there will never be a lasting peace. True, healing leaves scars. But,
>   in the case of history, scars not only remind us of the past but also
>   warn us against the future.
>   
>   The people of Croatia must stop their president before he desecrates
>   their name by desecrating the history he wishes to deny.
>   
>   (Dr.Reich is the director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in
>   Washington.)
>   
>   
>   



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May  1 17:46:38 PDT 1996
Article: 34096 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:44:22 GMT
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fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: meirman@erols.com wrote:
>
>: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >
>: >
>: >>	"Anti-Semitism" is a term that has been thrown around so much
>: >>that it musters up smirks if it should arise in conversation. Seems
>: >
>: >>	
>: >>	The antithesis of the term "Semite" is "Goyim".
>: >>Goyim is a negative term. 
>: >
>: >Goyim is not a negative term. Only people who don't speak Yiddish
>: >think so.   And of course muddle-headed idiots like the one above who
>: >posts  to a white-power news group
>: >
>: >Shalom
>
>: 	"Shalom" is a word Jews alot by saying, not by doing. 
>
>I read the above sentence several times. It still makes no sense.
>Perhaps you could take a course or two in the English language.

	What do you think of this application of the word "shalom"?


"Tom Moran -- an incompetent, gullible, cowardly, race baiting
imbecile.
Wow.  How satisfying.

Smooches and Shalom, motherfucker"

Jason Silverman

>
>: 	"Goyim" means nigger, spick, sand nigger, chink, beaner etc.
>: all at once. "Cattle" is another definition.  
>
>I thought 'goyim' meant 'gentiles'.
>
>
>
>--
>Dawn over the dark sea brings on the sun;                      
>She leans across the hilltop: see, the light!
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu  



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May  1 17:46:39 PDT 1996
Article: 34120 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST OF MIND
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:22:20 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  	Entered here you will find a number of ravings
>
>
>	A very accurate description of your anti-Semitic rants.  But this is not fair.  
>To set a new record for L'il Tommy's lies in one post you must come up with new 
>material, not recycle your own lies.  Admittedly after describing  the KKK as a "Jewish 
>organization" and exulting in a gang of thugs beating up a little girl your efforts would 
>be hard to top.  But why don't you start simply.  You have lied about a mayor of 
>Philadelphia attacking Jewish political groups?  Why don't you make up up another 
>lie and name him?
>
>	--YFE

	I see you have mentioned three things above as Moran's lies.
Can you show that you are not lying by posting the evidence of Moran's
lies? Can you show that Moran ever even typed the letters "KKK"? Show
your stuff.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  2 07:32:47 PDT 1996
Article: 27424 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:31:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu (Fragano Ledgister) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: meirman@erols.com wrote:
>
>: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >
>: >
>: >>	"Anti-Semitism" is a term that has been thrown around so much
>: >>that it musters up smirks if it should arise in conversation. Seems
>: >
>: >>	
>: >>	The antithesis of the term "Semite" is "Goyim".
>: >>Goyim is a negative term. 
>: >
>: >Goyim is not a negative term. Only people who don't speak Yiddish
>: >think so.   And of course muddle-headed idiots like the one above who
>: >posts  to a white-power news group
>: >
>: >Shalom
>
>: 	"Shalom" is a word Jews alot by saying, not by doing. 
>
>I read the above sentence several times. It still makes no sense.
>Perhaps you could take a course or two in the English language.

	Sorry. "Shalom" is a word the Jews use alot by saying, not by
doing.

>
>
>: 	"Goyim" means nigger, spick, sand nigger, chink, beaner etc.
>: all at once. "Cattle" is another definition.  
>
>I thought 'goyim' meant 'gentiles'.
>
>
>
>--
>Dawn over the dark sea brings on the sun;                      
>She leans across the hilltop: see, the light!
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu  



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  2 08:39:43 PDT 1996
Article: 34226 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST OF MIND
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:27:05 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Alternate title for "HOLOCAUST OF MIND";

	A GRACELESS VOID                 




From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  2 08:39:44 PDT 1996
Article: 34230 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: When a Jew says "Shalom"
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:48:00 GMT
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	It can mean;

	"Tom Moran -- an incompetent, gullible, cowardly, race baiting
imbecile.

Wow.  How satisfying.

Smooches and Shalom, motherfucker"

Jason Silverman



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  2 08:39:45 PDT 1996
Article: 34232 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How Would One Know For Sure
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:54:06 GMT
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	Argumentum ad ignorantiam: An argument purporting to
demonstrate a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of
facts and reasons the falsity or inadequecy of which is not readily
discernable.

	Example: Holocaust prosecutors presenting "eyewitness"
testimony (Leleko Interrogation), statements, killings in the "field",
fuzzy photographs, half tone photographs, "accredited historian"
material, and, well, all of the stuff the Holocaust prosecutors offer
to assert 10, 11 or 12 million people were exterminated.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  2 08:39:46 PDT 1996
Article: 34233 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:59:01 GMT
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	       Also titled, Great concepts worth knowing.
	
	
	"Deus ex machina".

	Random House Dictionary:
  1. "a god who resolves the entanglements of the play by his super
natural forces".
  2. "an artificial, forced or improbable device used to resolve the
difficulties of a plot".

	Like a document for every occasion, or interpreting an ant
hill phrase or word into a mountain range, or citing eye witness or
second party eyewitness testimony, special interpretation of
testimony, annonymous accounts, finding accounts in bottles buried at
the 'scene of the crime', or merely blurting out whatever suits the
purpose.

	Pondering the idea of deus ex machina leads to pondering
another related principle:               
	
                    ------------------------------

	One would think that if a person or a side had good argument
for/or against something they would rely on introducing information or
logic to show their views. Barring this we have to recognize that if
anyone resorts to blanket insults or name calling it is a sign of
break down. 	            

                   - Argumentum ad hominem: -
                  
         "An irrelvant or malicious appeal to personal circumstances;
it consists in diverting an argument from sound facts and reasons to
the personality of the opponent."
	         Calling the opponent names. 
	         Making snide little remarks.

	       Another term for it is, 'EVASION'.


	































































                    Argumentum ad Special Exception


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  2 11:07:07 PDT 1996
Article: 27439 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 13:35:48 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31861f93.1557288@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	"Shalom" is a word Jews alot by saying, not by doing. 
>
>Mr. Moran is fond of scribbling gibberish!
>
>
>	"Goyim" means nigger, spick, sand nigger, chink, beaner etc.
>	all at once. "Cattle" is another definition.  
>
>Goyim means "nations" in Hebrew and it means "non-Jew" in Yiddish.

	Interesting. In one it means "nations" and the other it means
"non-Jew".  I get it. When the Jews go into a nation they see it as a
nation of non-Jews. "Non-Jews"? Is that anything like 'we/them'?

>The spurious definition of "cattle" is only repeated in anti-Semitic
>pamphlets and squibs, so we know where Mr. Moran got his "definition"
>from!
>
>Mr. Moran has some chutzpah, condemning the entire Jewish community
>based on his own ignorance of foreign languages!
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>If any blame be attached to thee, be the first to declare it.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  2 17:35:24 PDT 1996
Article: 34295 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Wheres the money. Gimme,Gimme,Gimme
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 14:34:33 GMT
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	The continuing saga of the Jewish attempts to retrieve up to
billions from Swiss banks.

	Previously reported was the Jewish attempts to claim money
left over in Swiss accounts that are said to have been left by
Holocaust victims.

	In one report it was stated that the Jews were going to get
the U.S. Congress in on the act, with D'Amato's name explicitly. Well
he's in on it.

                	N.Y.Times May 2, 96.
      "Swiss Accord Is Called Near On Holocaust Victims' Funds"

	"Leaders of Jewish organizations and swiss banking officials
are expected to sign an agreement today to search for funds deposited
in Switzerland during the frantic days of WWII by those who died in
the Holocaust."

	"Under the proposal, a committee headed by a chairman and six
members, three appointed by Jewish organizations and three by Swiss
bankers, would oversee the auditors."

	"Edgar Bronfman Sr., president of the World Jewish Congress,
said he expected the agreement will be signed today in N.Y."

	"At a hearing last week, Senator Alfonso D'Amato, Rep. New
York and chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, questioned whether
Swiss bank officials were using that country's bank secrecy laws to
shield records from inspection."

	"One recently declassified Treasury Department document from
1945 suggested that in one Swiss bank alone there were 182 accounts,
mostly from Romanian Jews, worth two million, funds that with interest
would now be worth about $20 million."


	Lets see. The Jews said they were going to get the U.S. Senate
in on it, and it came through.
	The Swiss are going to allow Jews to sift through their
records, many of which we assume are others private business.
	They figure whatever real numbers they find should be worth
ten times the amount.

	It would be interesting to see the "recently declassified
Treasury Department document". Seems they are pouring all over the
place. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  2 22:40:19 PDT 1996
Article: 34319 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Just ask for Rachelle"
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 14:57:15 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
	
        	And then there was the follow up.


                    _________________________
Mr.Edeiken:
>From  yawen@enter.net Thu Mar 07 18:07:03 1996
>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>  
>  	Tom Moran had posted an expose by way of a listing of a number
>  of examples of exaggerations and racist murmurings. One example was an
>  ad placed in the New York Times by the Jewish National Fund claiming
>  they had planted 200,000,000 trees in Israel.

	We nowe have a good example of what L'il Tommy considers
racist.  
Planting lots of tree is a "racist" statement.  That puts the CCC in
the same league 
as Streicher.

>  	Seeming not to have much dispute with the posting of the other
>  10 or so examples of racist and ethnocentric murmurings, the usual
>  Holocaust swarm on alt.rev. focused on the posting of the 200,000,000
>  trees.

	We did, L'il Tommy.  You just ignored them.  But your comments
about 
trees is such an outstanding stupidity no-one can resist making fun of
you.

>  	It all seemed to culminate, thus far, under a post by John
>  Morris "Moran's fingers and Moran's toes".
>  	Moran had simply ask for the proof, photographic proof,
>  instead of the sketch the Jewish National Fund supplied to show it was
>  a true statement.

	That's a lie Tommy Bubella, you wer told where to find the
proof you 
refused to do so.  Instead you challenged "anybody" to go to a library
and find the 
pictures.  I did.  They were there.

>  	Eventually, Yale Edeiken, a alt.rev. regular blurted out that
>  he had found photograghic evidence. 

	Another lie.  I told you I accepted your challenge, went to my
local 
library and found the evidence you now refuse to examine.

>  	He directed Moran to the Allentown Penn. library and to ask
>  for a Rachelle, who had the books on hold. 

	I was there today.  There still there.

>  	Moran ask Mr. Edeiken to just supply the photos, thus the
>  titles. Mr.Edeiken only got more agressive and indignant. Moran ask
>  again "WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS".

	Bullshit.  I told you to go look at the evidence.  You have
refused to do 
so.

>  	Mr.Edeiken just kept on evading. Moran ask, "WHERE ARE THE
>  TITLES", and yet nothing civil or relevant from Mr.Edeiken.

	I evaded nothing, slimeball, I told you exactly where the
photographs 
were and are.

>   
>  The phone number for the Hamilton Street Branch (Main) of the
>  Allentown Public Library is (610) 820-24??.*             
>  
>  	        BUT DON'T ASK FOR RACHELLE. 
>                        She's not there.
>                         She never was.
>                        She never will be.
>                       She's does not exist. 
>          
>         No one at the Allentown Library never heard of her.
>                       
>            She's a figment of Mr.Edeiken's fabrication. 

	Wrong again, L'il Tommy.  She's there (I talked to her today).
She's still 
waiting to hear from you.  You are right, however, her name is not
"Rachelle."  
That is a code word we devised to forestall any attempt by you to
contact her over 
the phone.  (I must admit that I did not anticipate how stupid you
really are.  That is 
the first thing any sensible person would have done.  You had to wait
until others 
suggested it to you).  Why don't you just waltz up to the reference
desk and ask 
for the photos.  Your challenge was to show that the photos existed at
a public 
library.  Why don't you go and satisfy yourself that they are there.

	--YFE



Moran:
>From  tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 08 08:35:41 1996
yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  
>>  	Tom Moran had posted an expose by way of a listing of a number
>>  of examples of exaggerations and racist murmurings. One example was an
>>  ad placed in the New York Times by the Jewish National Fund claiming
>>  they had planted 200,000,000 trees in Israel.
>
>	We nowe have a good example of what L'il Tommy considers racist.  
>Planting lots of tree is a "racist" statement.  That puts the CCC in the same league 
>as Streicher.

	Lets see. Moran used the terms "exaggerations and racist" and
Mr.Edeiken focused on "racist" for his little sentence above about the
"exaggerations" of the trees.

>>  	Seeming not to have much dispute with the posting of the other
>>  10 or so examples of racist and ethnocentric murmurings, the usual
>>  Holocaust swarm on alt.rev. focused on the posting of the 200,000,000
>>  trees.
>
>	We did, L'il Tommy.  You just ignored them.  But your comments about 
>trees is such an outstanding stupidity no-one can resist making fun of you.

	He did?

>>  	It all seemed to culminate, thus far, under a post by John
>>  Morris "Moran's fingers and Moran's toes".
>>  	Moran had simply ask for the proof, photographic proof,
>>  instead of the sketch the Jewish National Fund supplied to show it was
>>  a true statement.
>
>	That's a lie Tommy Bubella, you wer told where to find the proof you 
>refused to do so.  Instead you challenged "anybody" to go to a library and find the 
>pictures.  I did.  They were there.

	Could Mr. Edeiken show where Moran challenged anybody to go to
the library or could he only show Mr.Moran challenged for proof. 


>>  	Eventually, Yale Edeiken, a alt.rev. regular blurted out that
>>  he had found photograghic evidence. 
>
>	Another lie.  I told you I accepted your challenge, went to my local 
>library and found the evidence you now refuse to examine.
>
>>  	He directed Moran to the Allentown Penn. library and to ask
>>  for a Rachelle, who had the books on hold. 
>
>	I was there today.  There still there.
>
>>  	Moran ask Mr. Edeiken to just supply the photos, thus the
>>  titles. Mr.Edeiken only got more agressive and indignant. Moran ask
>>  again "WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS".
>
>	Bullshit.  I told you to go look at the evidence.  You have refused to do 
>so.
>
>>  	Mr.Edeiken just kept on evading. Moran ask, "WHERE ARE THE
>>  TITLES", and yet nothing civil or relevant from Mr.Edeiken.
>
>	I evaded nothing, slimeball, I told you exactly where the photographs 
>were and are.
>
>>   
>>  The phone number for the Hamilton Street Branch (Main) of the
>>  Allentown Public Library is (610) 820-24??.*             
>>  
>>  	        BUT DON'T ASK FOR RACHELLE. 
>>                        She's not there.
>>                         She never was.
>>                        She never will be.
>>                       She's does not exist. 
>>          
>>         No one at the Allentown Library never heard of her.
>>                       
>>            She's a figment of Mr.Edeiken's fabrication. 
>
>	Wrong again, L'il Tommy.  She's there (I talked to her today).  She's still 
>waiting to hear from you.  You are right, however, her name is not "Rachelle."  
>That is a code word we devised to forestall any attempt by you to contact her over 
>the phone. 

	Okay. Mr.Edeiken has fessed up. He lied.
	He says Moran is "...right however, her name is not
'"Rachelle"'.  Moran never said anything about the truth of her
"name". Moran says the mythical person by the name of Rachelle or any
other name at the Allentown Library does not exist. Mr.Edeiken now
says it was a "code word" - "we" devised to "forestall" any attempt by
Moran to contact her by phone. He doesn't say why.
	Mr.Edeiken doesn't explain how Moran would get to the mythical
Rachelle if he did show up at the desk. Lest of course the Allentown
Public Library only has one employee. Say Moran flew to Allentown and
went to the desk of the library and ask for Rachelle, and
whats-her-name wasn't there, would the other employees, if any, be in
on the "code word" and say, 'Oh you must be Moran, we've been waiting
for you. Just a minute and I'll find her for you'.    

>(I must admit that I did not anticipate how stupid you really are.  That is 
>the first thing any sensible person would have done.  You had to wait until others 
>suggested it to you).

	Perhaps Mr.Edeiken can show where "others" suggested to Moran
to call up. He thinks Moran "had to wait" for these "others" to
suggest calling, when Moran was egging the hapless Mr.Edeiken to get
himself in deeper and deeper - and deeper, as he is still doing right
now. Down, down, into the depths. 

>Why don't you just waltz up to the reference desk and ask 
>for the photos.  Your challenge was to show that the photos existed at a public 
>library.  Why don't you go and satisfy yourself that they are there.

	Mr.Edeiken did try to slip away from Moran's asking him if the
Allentown Public Library was the only place that had the evidence, but
here he is again. WHERE ARE THE TITLES - MR.EDEIKEN? Moran called the
library and ask the answering party if they had any books on hold
under his name, and the lady said, "Hold it and I'll check." When she
returned she said "No. I don't find anything under that name". Of
course this could have been whats-her-name. But then why would she say
"No"? 	




Mr.Edeiken:
>From  yawen@enter.net Sun Mar 10 19:59:13 1996
>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>  	Could Mr. Edeiken show where Moran challenged anybody to go to
>  the library or could he only show Mr.Moran challenged for proof. 
>

	One thing you are very good at L'il Tommy is denying.  Most of
what 
you deny is your own idiocy.  You asked why photographs of trees in
Israel could 
not be found in the library.  You then asked "anyone" (your word) to
go the library 
and see for themselves.  Sounds like a challenge to me.  But then I
have some 
minimal understanding of the English language.  You do not.
  
>  	Okay. Mr.Edeiken has fessed up. He lied.
>  	He says Moran is "...right however, her name is not
>  '"Rachelle"'.  Moran never said anything about the truth of her
>  "name". Moran says the mythical person by the name of Rachelle or any
>  other name at the Allentown Library does not exist. Mr.Edeiken now
>  says it was a "code word" - "we" devised to "forestall" any attempt by
>  Moran to contact her by phone. He doesn't say why.

	That is because any idiot could understand it.  You wanted to
see 
pictures at the library I told you how.  Stop whining and go see them.

>  	Mr.Edeiken doesn't explain how Moran would get to the mythical
>  Rachelle if he did show up at the desk. Lest of course the Allentown
>  Public Library only has one employee. Say Moran flew to Allentown and
>  went to the desk of the library and ask for Rachelle, and
>  whats-her-name wasn't there, would the other employees, if any, be in
>  on the "code word" and say, 'Oh you must be Moran, we've been waiting
>  for you. Just a minute and I'll find her for you'.    

	Try it and find out.

>  	Mr.Edeiken did try to slip away from Moran's asking him if the
>  Allentown Public Library was the only place that had the evidence, but
>  here he is again. WHERE ARE THE TITLES - MR.EDEIKEN?

	You did not ask for titles; you asked for photos at a library.
I have 
supplied them.  If you want TITLES (not mentioned in your challenge)
go to the 
library where the books are located.  Look at the books and then look
at the 
covers.  You have not done so.  Changing the subject will not help
you..

	--YFE



Moran:
>From  tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar 11 05:51:51 1996
yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  	Could Mr. Edeiken show where Moran challenged anybody to go to
>>  the library or could he only show Mr.Moran challenged for proof. 
>>
>
>	One thing you are very good at L'il Tommy is denying.  Most of what 
>you deny is your own idiocy.  You asked why photographs of trees in Israel could 
>not be found in the library.  You then asked "anyone" (your word) to go the library 
>and see for themselves.  Sounds like a challenge to me.  But then I have some 
>minimal understanding of the English language.  You do not.

	He slides deeper,
  
>>  	Okay. Mr.Edeiken has fessed up. He lied.
>>  	He says Moran is "...right however, her name is not
>>  '"Rachelle"'.  Moran never said anything about the truth of her
>>  "name". Moran says the mythical person by the name of Rachelle or any
>>  other name at the Allentown Library does not exist. Mr.Edeiken now
>>  says it was a "code word" - "we" devised to "forestall" any attempt by
>>  Moran to contact her by phone. He doesn't say why.
>
>	That is because any idiot could understand it.  You wanted to see 
>pictures at the library I told you how.  Stop whining and go see them.

        and deeper,

>>  	Mr.Edeiken doesn't explain how Moran would get to the mythical
>>  Rachelle if he did show up at the desk. Lest of course the Allentown
>>  Public Library only has one employee. Say Moran flew to Allentown and
>>  went to the desk of the library and ask for Rachelle, and
>>  whats-her-name wasn't there, would the other employees, if any, be in
>>  on the "code word" and say, 'Oh you must be Moran, we've been waiting
>>  for you. Just a minute and I'll find her for you'.    
>
>	Try it and find out.

	and deeper,

>>  	Mr.Edeiken did try to slip away from Moran's asking him if the
>>  Allentown Public Library was the only place that had the evidence, but
>>  here he is again. WHERE ARE THE TITLES - MR.EDEIKEN?
>
>	You did not ask for titles; you asked for photos at a library.  I have 
>supplied them.  If you want TITLES (not mentioned in your challenge)  go to the 
>library where the books are located.  Look at the books and then look at the 
>covers.  You have not done so.  Changing the subject will not help you..

	until only his nostrils are above the surface, flailing for a
breath.


>From  finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Mar 11 09:36:02 1996
Mr. Moran, I think that what Mr. Eidekin is trying to tell you is
this.  If you really wanted to know about trees in Israel, rather
than just wanting to find some flimsy pretext for saying that
the Israeli government and by extension all Jews are liars, YOU
could get yourself on down to your local library and do what he
did: look for some books on Israel, on reforestation projects,
and so on.  If this is beyond your skills, ASK the librarian in
YOUR local library to help you.  This is called research.


Mr.Edeiken:
>From  yawen@enter.net Mon Mar 11 17:01:25 1996
>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>
>  >	You did not ask for titles; you asked for photos at a library.  I have 
>  >supplied them.  If you want TITLES (not mentioned in your challenge)  go to 
the 
>  >library where the books are located.  Look at the books and then look at the 
>  >covers.  You have not done so.  Changing the subject will not help you..
>  
>  	until only his nostrils are above the surface, flailing for a
>  breath.
>
	L'il Tommy wanted to see books in a library.  Now he refuses
to do so 
when they are pointed out to him.  The truth is that L'il Tommy had no
interest in 
finding out whether they were there or not -- had that been his desire
he would 
have done so -- he just wants to repeat his lies.  The person sinking
deepr and 
deeper is L'il Tommy.  What he is sinking deeper into is his on
bigotry.

	--YFE




 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May  3 10:00:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34465 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 13:51:20 GMT
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>
>>Aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 of the Treblinka death
>>camp site -- and forgotten for almost 45 years in the National Archives
>>in Washington, DC -- cast serious doubts on the widely accepted story that
>>it was a mass extermination center.
>
>Treblinka was erected in late May- earlier June 42; first "transport"
>on July 23; and dismantled at the end of November 43. A former
>Ukrainian guard named Strebel with his family became a farmer on this
>area, planted pine woods, saw lupin,.. So in 44, a photograph would
>hardly show anything. 

	Only in the Holocaust story. One year there is nothing, the
next year it was a roaring extermination camp where up to 2,000,000
people were killed and the next year it's a tree farm, and nothing is
left to take a picture of but trees. No rail line, no roads, no
buildings, no fire pit(s), no gas chambers, no barracks, only trees.
Yikes. Only the Holocaust story tellers would press something this
rediculous - as true.


>>Discovered in 1989, and published here for the first time in the United
>>States, these German reconnaissance photos corroborate other evidence indicating
>>that Treblinka was actually a transit camp. (note 4)
>>These photographs indicate that the remarkably small camp was not isolated,
>>or even particularly well guarded. (They clearly show that fields where
>>Polish farmers planted and cultivated crops were directly adjacent to the
>>camp perimeter.)
>
>It sounds strange to set a "transit" camp as small, on a blind
>railroad way. But it is true that the Polish peasants cultivated
>fields close to the camp;  it was strongly forbidden to come closer or
>to look inside, but there was a trade with ukranians guards who bought
>food with money extorted to the "gold Jews".
>
>True also that it was quickly no secret about what happened into the
>camp. But some deported in the close labor camps were sending mails,
>and for a few months it confused the Jews from Warsaw.

	It was no secret but the Jews were confused? Thats the
Holocaust story tellers for you. When it's convenient it was a secret
and when it's convenient everyone knew about it.

>Stangl said to Sereny: "Nobody knew nothing, nothing clear, guessed
>nothing. But hundreds of soldiers and civilian came to the entry of
>the camp; along the barriers, trying to buy things because they knew
>the existence of all this business. During a time, we even saw planes
>flying low to see what happened [..]. We shot and they stopped. But we
>were never able to stop the others. They saw corpses of Jews on the
>terrain or carried out of the station. They photographed them. The
>whole place stank miles away. Two weeks after a "visit", many people
>told they could no longer eat. But no, they knew nothing clear,
>nothing. Of course.."

	Of course any proof always comes from eyewitnesses. Anyway
here we have hundreds of soldiers and civilians prowling the the
perimeter, right up against the fence on both sides buying and
selling. Wait a minute, didn't Mr.Bilik just say "... it was strongly
forbidden to come closer or to look inside ..."? 

>>Moreover, the camp's burial area quite obviously appears too small to contain
>>the hundreds of thousands of bodies supposedly buried there. (Casting doubt
>>on the widely accepted story of hundreds of thousands of Treblinka victims,
>>these photos suggest instead that only those deportees who died during the
>>sometimes protracted rail journey to the camp were buried there.)
>
>Photographs of 1944 are of no interest. But you should think about the
>volume of 900000 victims' ashes. There were six roasters in the worse
>time. The ashes were buried beside, mixed to earth and dust, and later
>placed in the former burying pits.

	Which testimony is this?

>>'Steam Chambers'
>
>>According to an eyewitness account received in November 1942
>>in London from the Warsaw ghetto underground organization, Jews were exterminated
>>in death rooms at Treblinka with steam coming out of the
>>numerous holes in the pipes. (note 5) In August 1943, the New York
>
>The underground newspaper of the Bund, On Guard, September 20, 1942:
>
>"The women and children from the arriving transport were divided into
>groups of 200 each and were taken to the "baths", which was located
>closest to the digging machine. From the bath nobody returned, and
>news groups were entering there constantly. That bath was actually a
>house of murder. The floor in this barrack opened up and the people
>fell into a machine. According to the opinion of some of thouse who
>escaped, the people in the barrack were gassed. According to another
>opinion they were killed by electrical current. From the small tower
>over the bath, there were constant shots. [..]. The bath absorbs 200
>people every fifteen minutes, so in twenty-four hours the capacity is
>20000 people. That was the explanation for the incessant arrival of
>people in the camp, from where there was no return, except a few
>hundred who succeeded in escaping during the whole time.."

	"Digging machine"? "The floor ...opened up and the people fell
into a machine"?  People from a tower shot down into the bath. The
bath "absorbs" 20,000 people a day?  


>So, in September 42, indications are precise, quoting even the
>Lazarett, and the uncertainty concerns the exact mode of execution.
>That's logical since there is no escape once in the highest part of
>the camp, and very few contacts between the two parts.  It is the best
>testimony possible at this time. A lot believed that the noise of
>Diesel was coming from the digger.

"True also that it was quickly no secret about what happened into the
camp."

"... it was strongly forbidden to come closer or to look inside ..."? 

"But hundreds of soldiers and civilian came to the entry of
the camp; along the barriers, ..."
 		
You better post the eyewitnesss testimony. In its full.

>>American prosecutors at the main Nuremberg trial supported the steam story.
>>As proof, a Polish government report dated December 5, 1945, was submitted
>>as prosecution exhibit USA-293. It charged that Jews were killed at the
>>camp by suffocating them in steam-filled chambers. This report,
>>which says nothing about poison gas killings, was published in the official
>>Nuremberg trial record as document PS-3311. (note 12) An American prosecutor
>>quoted from this report during his address to the Tribunal on December 14,
>>1945. (note 13)
>
>Less than 70 escaped prisoners of Treblinka were still alive at the
>end of the war. Far mostly of the lower part. In the main Nuremberg
>trial (see some exchanges between Jackson and the French prosecutor
>btw) they didn't explore the differences between the different camps.
>The mass murder was admitted as a general policy, it was sufficient
>for **this** trial.

	Holocaust justice:


	Your Honor, this man shot that man with a gun.

	His Honor; I thought you said he was stabbed with a knife.

	What difference does it make your honor?


	"....it was sufficient for **this** trial."? How is that, Mr.
Bilik? You say there are different sufficiences for certain trials? Do
you have a code or guide line as to what constitutes "sufficient"?

>>One of the strangest Treblinka extermination stories, which appeared in
>>September 1942 in a Polish underground periodical, claimed that Jews were
>>killed there with a delayed action gas.
>
>See above. Polish also imagined that poison could be mixed with the
>engine's exhaust (they noticed a few weeks later that an engine was
>connected to the gassroom). That's the best that you can guess from
>100 or 200m away.

	So they were mistaken, you say?	

>>Diesel Gassing
>
>>In recent years, the most widely-circulated story has been that Jews were
>>gassed at Treblinka with carbon monoxide from the exhaust of a diesel engine.
>>However, as American engineer Friedrich Berg has established, this story
>>is improbable for technical reasons. (note 23) In spite of the obnoxious
>
>You missed the recent, complete and detailed post of Ken MacVay on the
>analysis of Berg. He stated, with the same sources than Berg, that the
>rate of O2 could be below 6% (lethal by itself, and, supererogatorly,
>the high toxicity of CO is strongly related to the low rate of O2),
>without considering the rate of NOx, and other irritants equally
>mortal alone at their rates in the smokes of a diesel engine like the
>Berg's ones.

	Ken McVay isn't capable of a formulating an analysis.

>>At least some former Treblinka prisoners testified in postwar West German
>>trials that they not only never saw a gas chamber, but did not even hear
>>about gassings from others. (note 27)
>
>Astonishing. That's why they uprised and escaped at the risk of their
>life? A trial: where, when, who said he didn't even hear about
>gassings? In Treblinka, they uprised because they were all in concern;
>in Birkenau, it wasn't the case and everyone knew the gassings.

	Wait a minute, theres lots of stories of how the people at
Birkenau knew what was in store for them. Anyway you didn't address
the statement. It says noone ever heard of the gassings.

>>Holocaust historians today are not able to agree about the number of homicidal
>>gas chambers at Treblinka. Raul Hilberg maintains that there
>>were three at first, but because they were allegedly not adequate for the
>>job, more were built later on. There were eventually six or perhaps ten
>>chambers, he reports. 
>
>Well, six, some witnesses telling ten. The SS had few interest to show
>a good memory, they said if they could that they worked only in the
>lowest part, and the direct witnesses still alive were rare in
>Dusseldorf in 64-65.

	The Leleko Interogation has him saying only one, and he says
he was there for the duration. One, six or ten. Oh whats the
difference?

>>Bomba's Testimony
>
>>Bomba's moving testimony, which conservative writer George Will called the
>>most stunning in this shattering film, is simply not credible.

	George Will used to write apologies for the Jewish state of
Israel. Since the Gulf War, the Jews have had a hard time getting
anyone to write for them. Anyway, you say "GEORGE WILL"? So what.

>Since you didn't see the movie, it will be simplier if I summarize the
>testimony of Bomba. Effectively he tells that he cutted hair of the
>women right in the gassroom, and had to left the place when the
>following women were incoming (therefore without cutting hair of one
>hundred women). He doesn't explain that later the barbers were at the
>entry of the "tube" and were no longer in the gassroom. He can't speak
>during a long space of time. The movie is focusing on his feelings,
>and he's still all upset after these 30 years. Bomba repeats he can't
>speak, and please to stop the record.
>>Treblinka Labor Camp

	Maybe this is why the Simon Wiesenthal Center doesn't provide
for Treblinka anymore.


>>penal labor prisoners being taken by train to and from the publicly known
>>T-I camp passed directly by the supposedly top secret T-II extermination
>>camp.
>
>If not killed in T2, that means that there were a million of prisoners
>in Treblinka I?
>
>>Documentary Evidence
>>Documents found after the war confirm that large numbers of Jews were deported
>>to Treblinka in 1942 and 1943. German railway records report the transfer
>>of trainloads of settlers (Umsiedler) and workers
>>to Treblinka from various places in Poland and from other countries. (note
>>34)
>
>>Interestingly, it was not until September 1, 1942, that the Treblinka train
>>station was closed to passenger rail travel by the general public (to
>>permit a smooth handling of the special resettlement trains), which
>>suggests that German officials were not particularly concerned with keeping
>>the deportations or the station secret. (note 37)
>
>You therefore noticed that enormously Jews were deported by this path?
>The main railroad is Malkinia-Siedlice. Treblinka is a cul-de-sac.  
>
>>Transit Camp
>
>>If Treblinka was not an extermination center, what was it? As already mentioned,
>>the balance of evidence indicates that Treblinka II -- along with Belzec
>>and Sobibor -- was a transit camp, where Jewish deportees were stripped
>>of their property and valuables before being transferred eastwards into
>>German-occupied Soviet territories. (note 43)
>
>Stripped, indeed. See the album of Kurt Franz.. Nobody saw them coming
>back, excepted for a very few number.

	Eyewitness testimony again. Thats all there is.

>>other camps. (note 45) Several thousand Jews (at least) were transferred
>>by German authorities from Treblinka to other camps, a postwar German court
>>determined. (note 46)
>
>Several thousands, it's very impressive.
>
>>There is no documentary or physical evidence for any of these figures, which
>>are simply conjectural estimates.
>
>The testimony of Zabecki, perhaps, at the station, who daily added,
>from the first day to the last, the numbers marked with a chalk on
>each car? He found 1,200,000.

	These testimonies get kind of creative.

>>Cremation Inconsistencies
>
>>Although enormous amounts of fuel would have been needed to cremate the
>>hundreds of thousands of alleged corpses, there is no documentary record
>>or witness recollection of the great quantities of firewood that would have
>>been required. 
>
>For the wood, the existence of the "Waldkommando" is well known.
>Forests were near the camp. For the "huge amount" of wood, you can
>read everywhere that the unburied bodies burned nearly without fuel,
>and that it's when the common pits were emptied that fuel was needed.

	Incredible. Thank god human bodies burn. This does away with
the need to explain cremation fuel. How come they have to blast bodies
for a period of time with flames in modern day cremation facilities to
reduce them to ashes?

>>Missing Remains
>
>>Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach, a member of an official Polish commission
>>that inspected the camp site in November 1945 -- that is, a few months after
>>the end of the war -- reported finding large human bones, rotted masses
>>of corpses, pieces of half-rotted corpses, and fully
>>dressed corpses, at the Treblinka camp site. (note 62)
>
>>In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located, the
>>commission's team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found human
>>remains, partially in the process of decay, and an unspecified amount
>>of ash. Untouched sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point the
>>digging was halted. An accompanying photograph of an excavated pit reveals
>>some large bones. (note 63)
>
>>The presence of uncremated human remains is not consistent with the often-repeated
>>allegation that all such remains were thoroughly destroyed. Significantly,
>>none of the Polish reports specifies the quantity of human remains, the
>>numbers of corpses, or the amount of ash found at the camp site, which suggests
>>that evidence of hundreds of thousands of victims was not found. (note 65)

	This is a fact. The report gives no quantitative numbers for
anything. "Large bones" could be from one person of unknown origin.
"Unspecified amount of ash" could have been an ounce or tons. (Quote
marks indicate the report wording)
	
>Nobody told that **all** the bodies were thoroughly incinerated.  On
>the contrary, when they emptied the common pits, they put into the
>ashes with partly burnt bone, what added to remaining half-decomposed
>bodies not pulled of. The remaining corpses couldn't be pulled of the
>graves. Wirth **beated** the SS to do it with the inmates, since
>several inmates choose the death instead of pulling the bodies of.
>
>That explains why one found humain rests, in the same place where all
>witnesses told that there was.
>
>The local peasants were so adviced that corpses were in these places,
>that before the arrival of the commission they returned the ground of
>all the zone (as for Belsen or Sobibor), hoping to find some gold or
>money.

	The local peasants "turned the ground of all the zone"? You
mean 8 meters (24 feet) deep over the entire 40 acres? Oh, you mean
for Belsen or Sobibor? We are talking about Treblinka, right? Thanks
for the opening. Lets see the report, or the name of the report that
says peasants ransacked the regolith of Treblinka, Sobibor and Belsen.

>>All the same, there is no hard or compelling evidence that Treblinka was
>>a mass extermination center where hundreds of thousands of Jews were systematically
>>put to death. To the contrary, credible reports of transfers of Jews from
>>Treblinka eastwards to the occupied Soviet territories, the relative lack
>>of secrecy and security in the camp, and the small size of the area where
>>the bodies were supposedly buried, all suggest instead that this was a transit
>>center.
>
>There is **no** plausible clue that a significant number of deported
>followed the reverse way. But, there are full railway statements in
>the direct way, and the extermination was so well known in the whole
>region that the inhabitants showed (while laughing) to the occupants
>of convoys that their throat will soon be cutted of; and that they
>returned the surface of the camp when the Germen were gone, searching
>gold, jewels or other currencies (having selled during a full year to
>the ukranians guard, supplies at the price of gold).

	Oh, so it was Treblinka? You mean the Poles were laughing at
the victims as they went by in rail cars, and the "whole region" knew
about it?

	Its obvious the Treblinka chapter of the Holocaust story is
going to fall. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May  3 10:00:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34466 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 13:52:31 GMT
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	For the past 50 years the Holocaust in it's present form has
saturated the ethos of the world. As many have recognized, it has been
pressed merely on "eyewitness testimony", interpretation of documents
and attempts at blocking anyone questioning the particulars.

	Recently, over the last few years a dark and looming
precidence, for the story, has seeped into the process of validation.

	As Franciszek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz museum puts it,
"Yet several factors now prompt historians to attempt to verify widely
used figures, including the scientific demand for objectivity in the
study of Nazi crimes." One should take note of Piper's use of the word
"objectivity".  Meaning as opposed to the subjective approach.

	The Nuremburg Trials was an event that tried and hung men on
the accounts of eyewitness testimony without any forensic research at
all to determine if any physical evidence existed to support what was
put forth at the trials. Whatever is taking place now in regard to
forensic studies to determine the validity of the Holocaust should
have been done at the time.
	The overall conclusion from what is available today in regard
to seeking out physical evidence, is that if it was done at the time
of the Nuremburg Trials the Holocaust story would take up only a few
books instead of the thousands the unsubstantiated story has created,
and some men may not have been hung.		

	Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site. The
results were next to nothing.

	Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the
results being next to nothing. 

	Perhaps the first probes for physical evidence in regard to
any trial was the "Leuchter Report" considered by the Canadian
government in the trial of Ernst Zundel. This report dealt with a
forensic investigation of existing cyanide traces at Auschwitz today.
His report leads the viewer to believe there was no process of gassing
at the camp.

	Then there was a research probe at Auschwitz-Birkenau by the
Polish Government to undo the Leuchter report. The "Final Remarks" to
the report concluded next to nothing.

	Then there was a probe done in the Ukraine to uncover a grave
in order to use as evidence at a war crimes trial in Australia, where
they found around 700 bodies in two seperate sites. No conclusion was
made that the Germans were responsible.

	All this, regardless of any findings, is the forensic,
scientific approach to verifying Holocaust accounts.

	The precidence is expanding. Eventually people will be relying
more and more on concrete, objective evidence. Once this becomes the
recognized practice, only that which can be confirmed by the
scientific method will be accepted, which so far, with the above, have
been dismal failures.

	Once it is in full demand, and the real evidence is not
forthcoming, most of the Holocasut story will have to be listed under
"Fiction" in the libraries.

	The more forensic investigations that take place and end up
failing to show what was intended, as is already the case with the
above, the more they will prove what didn't happen.  

	After all, much of the story has already gone down the drain
just from retrospect considerations not founded on the forensic method
and increased demand for physical evidence will undo the rest. 





From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May  3 10:00:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34468 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How Would One Know For Sure
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 14:07:09 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>
>>  >	A great example  of this is L'il Tommy.  His hatred of Jews is so extreme 
>>  >that he tells us how bad Jews are and cites something done by the KKK as part 
>>  >of a conspiracy by a "Jewish organization."
>  
>  
>>  	Post the copy Mr.Edeiken. Where exactly did Moran type the
>>  letters "KKK"?
>
>	You are misrepresenting what I wrote, L'il Tommy.  Of course you did not 
>type the letters "KKK" you just described something that they did and claimed that it 
>was done by a "Jewish organization." 

	Why don't you post all the particulars, like the article
heading, the thread location, the exact passage? Go for it.

> In other words, L'il Tommy, your deliberate 
>ommission of the letters "KKK" was part of your deliberate lie.  I use the word 
>deliberate for, although you were corrected on it several times, your repsonse was "I 
>stand pat."
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May  3 10:00:56 PDT 1996
Article: 34469 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 14:09:18 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>  >	One recent us of this was when L'il Tommy wanted to prove that Jews 
>>  >were conspirators.  To further his argument he cited something done by the KKK 
>>  >and told us that a "Jewish organization" had been responsible.  L'il Tommy will 
>>  >grasp at any straw to justify his hatred of Jews.
>
>  	
>>  	Post the copy Mr.Edeiken. Where exactly did Moran type the
>>  letters "KKK"?
>
>	Do you deny. L'il Tommy, that you attributed actions taken by the KKK to 
>a "Jewsih organization?"
>
>>  >	For example, if L'il Tommy *really* had a factual basis for his allegations 
>>  >he would not have been forced to inform the world that something done by the 
>>  >KKK was done by a "Jewsih organization."
>
>	L'il Tommy has no answer.
>
>
>>  >	Calling you an anti-Semite is not calling names.  It is an exercise in 
>>  >taxonomy.
>
>	L'il Tommy has no answer.  I wonder why.
>
>
>>  >>  	       Another term for it is, 'EVASION'.
>
>>  >	A good example of this is L'il Tommy.  He has stated that a mayor of 
>>  >Philadelphia made a certain statement about Jews.  He refuses to name that 
>>  >person.  And, of course, we are all still waiting for L'il Tommy to name a court 
>>  >decision where it was declared that the Meorah was a secular symbol.  The last 
>>  >time he tried he cited a case where one of the concurring opinions stated that 
>the 
>>  >Christian *cross* was secular symbol.
>
>	L'il Tommy has no answer.
>
>	--YFE
	
	I see your on the ropes Mr.Edeiken. Why don't you take
Rachelle out for a walk and see if she can help you. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May  3 11:20:53 PDT 1996
Article: 34470 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians Agree: Goldhagen is a Schmuck
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 14:16:46 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>A week ago I posted a review of Goldhagen's Book, "Hitler's Willing
>Executioners", castigating the obvious anti-German bias of this foolish
>book.
>I further pointed out that the one of main problems with the book is that
>thesis was a-historical, because it was subjective.  No one responded to
>that review, because moderately worded entries never get responses on THIS
>board.
>
>Gordon Craig, professor emeritus at Stanford, in the latest New York
>Review
>of Books (p. 52, Number 9) writes:

>"My reservations are rooted in the fact that G. argues a case that
> requires historical proof if it is to be accepted with almost no
> reference to historical evidence." 

	This is why the HDL is so eager to snuggle up with the book
and purr as they read along. They don't need any historical evidence.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May  3 11:20:54 PDT 1996
Article: 34476 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Main Convincing Point for Revisionism
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 15:08:01 GMT
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	I find one certain aspect of the Holocaust controversy that
tilts ears and minds in the direction of the revisionists side of the
story, right away.  Once this is shown, they become very attentative. 
	The aspect is - the presentation of the Holocaust prosecution
efforts to block any further discussion on the matter.  
	Any excuses for refusing to discuss it, any manifistation of
the child logic on alt.revisionism, all the charges of "hate" and
"racism" can not stamp out the basic prevailant human nature to be
suspicious of someone who professes something and then not only
refuses to discuss it, but actually tries to stop any further
discussion.  
	All it does is push the suspicious mind in the direction of
the views of those who are attacked. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May  3 11:20:55 PDT 1996
Article: 34478 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 15:14:02 GMT
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	According to Franciszek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz Museum
in Poland, prisoner and SS eyewitness testimony is unreliable.
	In his "Number of Victims", Chapter 4 in "The Anatomy of the
Auschwitz Death Camp", he covers the course of events and
considerations involved in arriving at the revised Auschwitz figures. 
	It seems the revisers held little esteem for any eyewitness
testimony, at least in regard to numbers, be it prisoner or SS
functionary, discounting it all in favor of deportation records from
various countries.
	In respect to the numbers, Piper referring to the deportation
records states, "Before these records were discovered, researchers had
to rely on discrepant and impercise data from testimonies and
depositions from witnesses, former prisoners, and Nazi functionaries
and on court decisions and fragmentary and incomplete records of camp
registries, archives, and other institutions".
	Here Piper even includes "court decisions" as part of that
which is held in low esteem.
	He goes on to say the testimonies held "inevitable distortions
and were "marred by serious errors, discrepancies, and
contradictions".
	Among the few examples Piper identifies as perpetrating the
questionable testimony is the number one star witness for the
Holocaust story, Rudolph Ho'ss.
	Under a bold heading "Investigating and Prosecuting Agencies
and Tribunals" Piper does a quick run down on the erroneous findings
of these bodies and even does similar comment under "Scholarly
Publications".
	Piper comments along the way, "Yet several factors now prompt
historians to attempt to verify widely used figures, including the
scientific demand for objectivity in the study of Nazi crimes."
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May  3 13:31:52 PDT 1996
Article: 34488 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 16:32:19 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	As to Piper's condemnation of "Scholary publications" we could
list some titles that would come under this heading.


"The Holocaust" by Nora Levin

"The Destrucution of European Jewery" Yehuda Bauer

"The History of the Holocaust" Raul Hilberg 

The output of the Simon Wiesenthal Center

Nizkor

and all the rest of the outputs utilizing principles of
non-"objectivety".


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May  4 06:25:11 PDT 1996
Article: 34590 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!dildog.lgc.com!news.sesqui.net!newsfeed.rice.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!pendragon!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 14:09:06 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3188c120.2166571@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31861a38.187019@news.pacificnet.net> <4m6mu6$qku@news.nyu.edu> <1MAY199619045839@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:


>
>    Well, Tommy, you made your "the Holocaust is like the UFOs" claim and
>    six or so people have rebutted your arguments.  You haven't responded.
>
	Whats to respond to? I posted, you(s) responded. I have faith
in the self evidence of each. You say "rebutted". If you think that
then you should be confortable. 


>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>             Quoth the Mor*n: "The end justifies the means!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May  4 12:07:00 PDT 1996
Article: 34683 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burning pits
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 14:46:40 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <318a1a42.3317524@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4lupgt$lnp@Vir.com> <4m6bo5$qra@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4mbsc3$9c3@boris.eden.com>
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
>>In article <4m6bo5$qra@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >  By the way Mr Van Alstine, before to continue, I would like to know what
>>> >  was exactly your reference about those burning pits were the germans were
>>> >  suppose to burn bodies and collect fat...
>
>>Mr. Beaulieu can find references from which fat was collected as fuel for
>>the fire in the incineration pits in:
>
>>_The Destruction of the European Jews_, p.629.
>
>Yup:
>
>"Eight pits were dug, each about 4 by 60 yards in size. On the bottom
>of the pits the human fat was collected and poured back into the fire
>with buckets to hasten the cremations."
>
>>_Anantomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.463.
>
>Yup:
>
>"With the Soviet forces fast approaching Romania, time was of the
>essence. A large number of prisoners were employed to bring the
>destruction machinery up to date. Under Moll's direction, the
>crematoria were renovated: the furnaces relined, the chimenys were
>strengthened with iron bands, the loading and unloading ramps were
>completed with a three-track railway system that provided a direct
>link to the death furnaces, and large pits were dug in the immediate
>vicinity of the gas chambers for the burning of the large number of
>corpses that the crematoria could not handle. Each pit was 40 to 50
>meters long, 8 m wide, and 2 m deep. At the bottom of each pit a
>channel was dug in the center to make possible the "harvesting" of the
>fat exuding from the burning corpses for reuse as fuel in the
>cremation process. At the height of the deportations from Hungary nine
>such pits were in operation, in addition to the crematoria."
>
	Nine pits going at one time, in addition to the others? All
this taking place somewhere around August '44 and the Russians enter
in Janurary '45? You would think obvious signs of all this massive
excavation would have been there, and they would have done an
investigation, especially since they were saying millions, over 4
million, were killed there.
	Oh you say the Germans smoothed it all over real nice and
planted flower beds or something? Maybe they brought down the
Ukrainian farmer from Treblinka to show them how to plant trees and
all, that would obliterate any traces like he did at that camp. 
	Nine flaming pits all at once, right there in the middle of
the large civilian population, 1000 of them working at the camp,
coming in ready contact with the 100,000 prisoners.
	How idiotic.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 12:53:16 PDT 1996
Article: 34866 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 13:28:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <318caceb.2333598@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3188bef9.1614849@news.pacificnet.net> <4mbku8$9qs@news.enter.net> <318a1330.1507251@news.pacificnet.net> <4mdas3$ma5@news.nyu.edu>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:


>Li'l Tommy, you never cease to amaze me.  YOur lies get listed for all to 
>see, and you then announce that YAle is "on the ropes."  Does reality 
>ever intrude into your little world?  Just wondering.
>
>And I really am waiting for you to back up your claim that the Supreme 
>COurt found the menorah to be a secular symbol.

A number of months ago, Moran posted an account about Jewish
attempts to have the cross banned from public display while pushing to
have the menorah excluded from any, seperation of church and state
clause, they used as part of their attack.
	Moran had made referrence to a court case where he stated the
court made a determination that the cross should be banned on the
grounds it was a religious symbol and menorah should be excluded from
this because it was a secular symbol.
	Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
matching the situation.
	He submitted a press release that somewhat clarified the real
nature of the case. The full details of the case are still unknown to
Moran and evidentally to the HDL since they have posted no more
details on the case. From what was revealed, it appears a ruling was
made to exclude the menorah from any consideration when it came time
to determine if the cross was legitimate for display. Evidentally the
appeals court over turned the ruling, not going for the petitioning
party(s)'s argument that the menorah "was beyond religion".
	Moran regrets any pain and suffering he may have caused in his
not getting the details of the case totally straight. My heart goes
out to all those in the HDL who got themselves into fits of dispare,
flopping around on the floor, wrenching their garments etc.
	Anyway, as it turns out, the HDL has been on Moran's heels
ever since. Particularly when Moran posts something that excedes the
HDL's capacity to chutzpah against. They get themselves into a huff
and them resort to diverting over to the menorah situation. Moran has
pointed out that by their focusing on this one little thing shows they
in turn tacitly admit that Moran's other posts are too tough to deal
with and the HDL has to resort to focusing on something they think
they are capable of using to discredit Moran. Something like 'Oh. Look
at that one black grain of sand on the beach. Therefore the beach is
black'. Actually the HDL should thank Moran for his little faux pas,
since they have used it so many times to divert attention away from
and avoiding responses directly to many of Moran's posts.
	For the most part Moran was correct in his referrence to the
court case. There was a procedure to have the cross banned while
excluding the menorah from any clauses used to have the cross banned.
The argument that the menorah is "beyond religion" has a certain smell
to it, like a spoonful of chutzpah.
	In actuality there was considerable events that preceded this
court case and Moran gave a run down on it in his initial post on the
topic. Evidentally the HDL doesn't have any gripes with the rest of
the accounting, which was 90% of the story, since they keep focusing
on the court case exclusively.

	Since Moran plans on inserting this in the future to any
subsequent resurrections of the matter by the HDL, as has happened
perhaps thirty times over the last couple of months, Moran is going to
include a brief rundown on all the events he can recall about the
nationwide attempt by the Jews to have the cross banned while pressing
to have their menorah excluded from any consideration in the same.  
	
	It all started around one Christmas in Beverly Hills. A cross
was erected and displayed in a park that is right adjacent to Century
City along Santa Monica Boulevard. Jewish forces went into the attack
mode and challenged its presence. The report was made in the
L.A.Times. The next year the same thing came up and this time the Jews
in Beverly Hills defended the menorah, which was displayed in the same
park, as being a "secular symbol" and should not come under the same
reasoning used to ban the cross in that it was a religious symbol.
	Eventually, the word got around the Jewish community and the
attacks on the cross rose up in other cities across the country. Moran
being in the Philadelphia area one Christmas came across an article
about one of the attacks were the mayor of the town stated they
weren't going to allow the Jews to use the display of religious
symbols "for political reasons".  
	Moran had also in the last year or two recieved an article
>from  an associate in Florida about a shopping center which had a
policy of not allowing any religious symbols at all to be displayed,
but the Jews took offense that the menorah was included in this ban.
Utilizing their standard form of harrasement, they bombarded the
management with letters and phone calls and demonstrated to have the
menorah excluded from this ban on the grounds it is a "secular
symbol".
	Of course Moran's ability to amass all the events of Jews
conspiring to have the cross benned while having their own religious
symbol excluded is limited, but there must be many more. There is one
major Christian organization that has a wide collection of Jewish
attacks on their particular denomination and on the Christian
community in general, but this can not be revealed at this time
without their permission.
	For the Jews to assert the menorah is "secular" is putting the
spoon of chutzpah to your mouths, and Moran will leave out, at this
time, the overwhelming amount of evidence that can be presented to
show the use of the "secular" word is an insult, in anticipation the
HDL will come out and try to put the spoon of chutzpah to our mouths.
	Ah yes, if not "secular", then "beyond religion".  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 12:53:17 PDT 1996
Article: 34868 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 13:38:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <318cad6d.2462946@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <318a0f7c.559191@news.pacificnet.net> 
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
># The results were next to nothing.
>
>I guess that's the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>never said?

The professor uses the "lie" word alot against his adversaries, but he
never expands to correct it. He simply states it and runs away. He
should be suppoting any of his little accusations with hard evidence.
But he doesn't.

>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>in Treblinka. 

	"Numerous amounts". "Numerous amounts"?
	Des the professor give any idea of what constitutes "numerous
amounts"? No. Will he? Wait and see.


># Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the
># results being next to nothing. 
>
>Another outright lie. Cyanide compounds were discovered in
>the remians of all the gassing installations. This fact was
>posted here, together with the very detailed report written
>by the chemists who did the tests. 

	Why doesn't the professor refer the rreader over to the report
that would support his statement? He thinks all he has to say is his
statement and thats it. What about it professor, are you going to go a
little farther, or is Moran right?

>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 12:53:17 PDT 1996
Article: 34896 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism = amti-Semitism?
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 15:43:05 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <318ccb6e.10144482@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4md2lo$f2m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:


	Martin Luther King Jr. endorses all Zionist activety,
including the slaughter of children, adult civilians, rousting whole
populations, bombing refugee camps, razing family homes, uprooting
peoples orchards, imprisonment without trial and all else. Is this
what your saying Annie? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 14:37:14 PDT 1996
Article: 34866 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 13:28:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <318caceb.2333598@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3188bef9.1614849@news.pacificnet.net> <4mbku8$9qs@news.enter.net> <318a1330.1507251@news.pacificnet.net> <4mdas3$ma5@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:


>Li'l Tommy, you never cease to amaze me.  YOur lies get listed for all to 
>see, and you then announce that YAle is "on the ropes."  Does reality 
>ever intrude into your little world?  Just wondering.
>
>And I really am waiting for you to back up your claim that the Supreme 
>COurt found the menorah to be a secular symbol.

A number of months ago, Moran posted an account about Jewish
attempts to have the cross banned from public display while pushing to
have the menorah excluded from any, seperation of church and state
clause, they used as part of their attack.
	Moran had made referrence to a court case where he stated the
court made a determination that the cross should be banned on the
grounds it was a religious symbol and menorah should be excluded from
this because it was a secular symbol.
	Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
matching the situation.
	He submitted a press release that somewhat clarified the real
nature of the case. The full details of the case are still unknown to
Moran and evidentally to the HDL since they have posted no more
details on the case. From what was revealed, it appears a ruling was
made to exclude the menorah from any consideration when it came time
to determine if the cross was legitimate for display. Evidentally the
appeals court over turned the ruling, not going for the petitioning
party(s)'s argument that the menorah "was beyond religion".
	Moran regrets any pain and suffering he may have caused in his
not getting the details of the case totally straight. My heart goes
out to all those in the HDL who got themselves into fits of dispare,
flopping around on the floor, wrenching their garments etc.
	Anyway, as it turns out, the HDL has been on Moran's heels
ever since. Particularly when Moran posts something that excedes the
HDL's capacity to chutzpah against. They get themselves into a huff
and them resort to diverting over to the menorah situation. Moran has
pointed out that by their focusing on this one little thing shows they
in turn tacitly admit that Moran's other posts are too tough to deal
with and the HDL has to resort to focusing on something they think
they are capable of using to discredit Moran. Something like 'Oh. Look
at that one black grain of sand on the beach. Therefore the beach is
black'. Actually the HDL should thank Moran for his little faux pas,
since they have used it so many times to divert attention away from
and avoiding responses directly to many of Moran's posts.
	For the most part Moran was correct in his referrence to the
court case. There was a procedure to have the cross banned while
excluding the menorah from any clauses used to have the cross banned.
The argument that the menorah is "beyond religion" has a certain smell
to it, like a spoonful of chutzpah.
	In actuality there was considerable events that preceded this
court case and Moran gave a run down on it in his initial post on the
topic. Evidentally the HDL doesn't have any gripes with the rest of
the accounting, which was 90% of the story, since they keep focusing
on the court case exclusively.

	Since Moran plans on inserting this in the future to any
subsequent resurrections of the matter by the HDL, as has happened
perhaps thirty times over the last couple of months, Moran is going to
include a brief rundown on all the events he can recall about the
nationwide attempt by the Jews to have the cross banned while pressing
to have their menorah excluded from any consideration in the same.  
	
	It all started around one Christmas in Beverly Hills. A cross
was erected and displayed in a park that is right adjacent to Century
City along Santa Monica Boulevard. Jewish forces went into the attack
mode and challenged its presence. The report was made in the
L.A.Times. The next year the same thing came up and this time the Jews
in Beverly Hills defended the menorah, which was displayed in the same
park, as being a "secular symbol" and should not come under the same
reasoning used to ban the cross in that it was a religious symbol.
	Eventually, the word got around the Jewish community and the
attacks on the cross rose up in other cities across the country. Moran
being in the Philadelphia area one Christmas came across an article
about one of the attacks were the mayor of the town stated they
weren't going to allow the Jews to use the display of religious
symbols "for political reasons".  
	Moran had also in the last year or two recieved an article
>from  an associate in Florida about a shopping center which had a
policy of not allowing any religious symbols at all to be displayed,
but the Jews took offense that the menorah was included in this ban.
Utilizing their standard form of harrasement, they bombarded the
management with letters and phone calls and demonstrated to have the
menorah excluded from this ban on the grounds it is a "secular
symbol".
	Of course Moran's ability to amass all the events of Jews
conspiring to have the cross benned while having their own religious
symbol excluded is limited, but there must be many more. There is one
major Christian organization that has a wide collection of Jewish
attacks on their particular denomination and on the Christian
community in general, but this can not be revealed at this time
without their permission.
	For the Jews to assert the menorah is "secular" is putting the
spoon of chutzpah to your mouths, and Moran will leave out, at this
time, the overwhelming amount of evidence that can be presented to
show the use of the "secular" word is an insult, in anticipation the
HDL will come out and try to put the spoon of chutzpah to our mouths.
	Ah yes, if not "secular", then "beyond religion".  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 14:37:15 PDT 1996
Article: 34868 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 13:38:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <318cad6d.2462946@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <318a0f7c.559191@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
># The results were next to nothing.
>
>I guess that's the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>never said?

The professor uses the "lie" word alot against his adversaries, but he
never expands to correct it. He simply states it and runs away. He
should be suppoting any of his little accusations with hard evidence.
But he doesn't.

>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>in Treblinka. 

	"Numerous amounts". "Numerous amounts"?
	Des the professor give any idea of what constitutes "numerous
amounts"? No. Will he? Wait and see.


># Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the
># results being next to nothing. 
>
>Another outright lie. Cyanide compounds were discovered in
>the remians of all the gassing installations. This fact was
>posted here, together with the very detailed report written
>by the chemists who did the tests. 

	Why doesn't the professor refer the rreader over to the report
that would support his statement? He thinks all he has to say is his
statement and thats it. What about it professor, are you going to go a
little farther, or is Moran right?

>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 14:37:15 PDT 1996
Article: 34896 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism = amti-Semitism?
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 15:43:05 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <318ccb6e.10144482@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4md2lo$f2m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-21.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:


	Martin Luther King Jr. endorses all Zionist activety,
including the slaughter of children, adult civilians, rousting whole
populations, bombing refugee camps, razing family homes, uprooting
peoples orchards, imprisonment without trial and all else. Is this
what your saying Annie? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 18:41:43 PDT 1996
Article: 34866 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 13:28:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <318caceb.2333598@news.pacificnet.net>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:


>Li'l Tommy, you never cease to amaze me.  YOur lies get listed for all to 
>see, and you then announce that YAle is "on the ropes."  Does reality 
>ever intrude into your little world?  Just wondering.
>
>And I really am waiting for you to back up your claim that the Supreme 
>COurt found the menorah to be a secular symbol.

A number of months ago, Moran posted an account about Jewish
attempts to have the cross banned from public display while pushing to
have the menorah excluded from any, seperation of church and state
clause, they used as part of their attack.
	Moran had made referrence to a court case where he stated the
court made a determination that the cross should be banned on the
grounds it was a religious symbol and menorah should be excluded from
this because it was a secular symbol.
	Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
matching the situation.
	He submitted a press release that somewhat clarified the real
nature of the case. The full details of the case are still unknown to
Moran and evidentally to the HDL since they have posted no more
details on the case. From what was revealed, it appears a ruling was
made to exclude the menorah from any consideration when it came time
to determine if the cross was legitimate for display. Evidentally the
appeals court over turned the ruling, not going for the petitioning
party(s)'s argument that the menorah "was beyond religion".
	Moran regrets any pain and suffering he may have caused in his
not getting the details of the case totally straight. My heart goes
out to all those in the HDL who got themselves into fits of dispare,
flopping around on the floor, wrenching their garments etc.
	Anyway, as it turns out, the HDL has been on Moran's heels
ever since. Particularly when Moran posts something that excedes the
HDL's capacity to chutzpah against. They get themselves into a huff
and them resort to diverting over to the menorah situation. Moran has
pointed out that by their focusing on this one little thing shows they
in turn tacitly admit that Moran's other posts are too tough to deal
with and the HDL has to resort to focusing on something they think
they are capable of using to discredit Moran. Something like 'Oh. Look
at that one black grain of sand on the beach. Therefore the beach is
black'. Actually the HDL should thank Moran for his little faux pas,
since they have used it so many times to divert attention away from
and avoiding responses directly to many of Moran's posts.
	For the most part Moran was correct in his referrence to the
court case. There was a procedure to have the cross banned while
excluding the menorah from any clauses used to have the cross banned.
The argument that the menorah is "beyond religion" has a certain smell
to it, like a spoonful of chutzpah.
	In actuality there was considerable events that preceded this
court case and Moran gave a run down on it in his initial post on the
topic. Evidentally the HDL doesn't have any gripes with the rest of
the accounting, which was 90% of the story, since they keep focusing
on the court case exclusively.

	Since Moran plans on inserting this in the future to any
subsequent resurrections of the matter by the HDL, as has happened
perhaps thirty times over the last couple of months, Moran is going to
include a brief rundown on all the events he can recall about the
nationwide attempt by the Jews to have the cross banned while pressing
to have their menorah excluded from any consideration in the same.  
	
	It all started around one Christmas in Beverly Hills. A cross
was erected and displayed in a park that is right adjacent to Century
City along Santa Monica Boulevard. Jewish forces went into the attack
mode and challenged its presence. The report was made in the
L.A.Times. The next year the same thing came up and this time the Jews
in Beverly Hills defended the menorah, which was displayed in the same
park, as being a "secular symbol" and should not come under the same
reasoning used to ban the cross in that it was a religious symbol.
	Eventually, the word got around the Jewish community and the
attacks on the cross rose up in other cities across the country. Moran
being in the Philadelphia area one Christmas came across an article
about one of the attacks were the mayor of the town stated they
weren't going to allow the Jews to use the display of religious
symbols "for political reasons".  
	Moran had also in the last year or two recieved an article
>from  an associate in Florida about a shopping center which had a
policy of not allowing any religious symbols at all to be displayed,
but the Jews took offense that the menorah was included in this ban.
Utilizing their standard form of harrasement, they bombarded the
management with letters and phone calls and demonstrated to have the
menorah excluded from this ban on the grounds it is a "secular
symbol".
	Of course Moran's ability to amass all the events of Jews
conspiring to have the cross benned while having their own religious
symbol excluded is limited, but there must be many more. There is one
major Christian organization that has a wide collection of Jewish
attacks on their particular denomination and on the Christian
community in general, but this can not be revealed at this time
without their permission.
	For the Jews to assert the menorah is "secular" is putting the
spoon of chutzpah to your mouths, and Moran will leave out, at this
time, the overwhelming amount of evidence that can be presented to
show the use of the "secular" word is an insult, in anticipation the
HDL will come out and try to put the spoon of chutzpah to our mouths.
	Ah yes, if not "secular", then "beyond religion".  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 18:41:44 PDT 1996
Article: 34868 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 13:38:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
># The results were next to nothing.
>
>I guess that's the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>never said?

The professor uses the "lie" word alot against his adversaries, but he
never expands to correct it. He simply states it and runs away. He
should be suppoting any of his little accusations with hard evidence.
But he doesn't.

>Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>in Treblinka. 

	"Numerous amounts". "Numerous amounts"?
	Des the professor give any idea of what constitutes "numerous
amounts"? No. Will he? Wait and see.


># Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the
># results being next to nothing. 
>
>Another outright lie. Cyanide compounds were discovered in
>the remians of all the gassing installations. This fact was
>posted here, together with the very detailed report written
>by the chemists who did the tests. 

	Why doesn't the professor refer the rreader over to the report
that would support his statement? He thinks all he has to say is his
statement and thats it. What about it professor, are you going to go a
little farther, or is Moran right?

>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 18:41:45 PDT 1996
Article: 34896 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism = amti-Semitism?
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 15:43:05 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:


	Martin Luther King Jr. endorses all Zionist activety,
including the slaughter of children, adult civilians, rousting whole
populations, bombing refugee camps, razing family homes, uprooting
peoples orchards, imprisonment without trial and all else. Is this
what your saying Annie? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 18:41:46 PDT 1996
Article: 34917 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Watch This
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 16:37:47 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <31861a53.213658@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
>
>>
>> 	McFee responding to Van Alstines crowing that he had just
>>bought Goldhagen's book and was going to snuggle up with it:
>
>>	"I agree with much of what you say, Mark, but we must not be too
>>quick--not that I am claiming you are--to exculpate the "ordinary" people
>>of other countries.  The willingness of far too many
>>Ukrainians, Latvians, French,
>>and many more, to assist the Nazis in their extermination of the Jews is a
>>sad story indeed.  We must also guard against forgetting just how
>>apathetic most people are to what their governments do.  The large mass
>>stands back and lets it happen, and there are many recent as well as
>>ancient examples. 
>>	That is partially an indictment of humanity, not just of
>>Germans."
>
>
>>	Watch this. McFee, of course you think that U.S. support for the Jews
>>killing children, rousting populations, killing other civilians, blowing
>>up their houses, tearing up their orchards, incarcerating them in
>>concentration camps and the myriad of other sleezy practices shouldn't be
>>an example of your moral, "We must also guard against forgetting just how
>>apathetic most people are to what their governments do.  The large mass
>>stands back and lets it happen, and there are many recent as well as
>>ancient examples". 
>
>I am sure you have a point to make somewhere, Tommie.  What Israel may, or
>may not be doing to other countries at this time is irrelevant to the
>historicity of the Holocaust.
>
	Israel was founded on the myth of the Holocaust. Now the
little racist state is here and committing it's unaesthetic deeds. The
Holocaust pushers cite themselves as fighters against "hate",
"neo-Nazism" and "anti-Semitism" yet here you are with your little
statement of "irrelevant", without addressing the results of this
"Holocaust" as is taking place today. It all started with the
Holocaust story.  


>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                    



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May  5 18:41:47 PDT 1996
Article: 34919 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 16:25:05 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># The professor uses the "lie" word alot against his adversaries, but he
># never expands to correct it. He simply states it and runs away. He
># should be suppoting any of his little accusations with hard evidence.
># But he doesn't.
>
>The evidence was posted here already; it consists of Moran
>posting a genuine excerpt of testimony together with his forgeries
>(that is, he added questions that were never asked and answers that 
>were never given). He doesn't deny doing this; he just claims it
>was a "satire". However, he did not state that the Q&A's he
>added were "satire", in his original article, but only later,
>after his forgery was exposed.
>
>In short, he's a liar and a forger.

	And again the professor refuses to post the particulars.

># Why doesn't the professor refer the rreader over to the report
># that would support his statement? 
>
>Stop these idiotic games. I'm referring to the report by the
>Polish chemists, that was posted here quite a few times. Being
>a liar and forger is bad enough, you don't have to be
>mentally retarded also. Or maybe it's senility sinking in?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
Seems there are two main reports existing that are founded on
studies of samples taken from the ruins of Auschwitz in order to
confirm or deny mass extermination had taken place at the camp by way
of gassing.
	One is the "Leuchter Report" which revisionists use to deny
this aspect of the Holocaust story, and the other is one done by the
Polish government to show that the gassing procedure took place.
	Personally I have never seen the full Leuchter Report, only
bits here and there. Recently the Polish study was posted on the
alt.revisionism group by Richard Green, evidentally taken from the
Nizkor archives, (Nizkor>ftp>pub>orgs>polish>institute for forensic
..)
	It's title appears to be (abrev.) "THE STUDY OF THE CYANIDE
CONTENTS ... GAS CHAMBERS ... AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU".

	It starts off with, and eventually commits about 15% of it's
copy, to making comment on revisionism and Leuchter. Personally I get
the notion this report was initiated soley to deny the Leuchter Report
since it spends so much time with the subjects in it's introductory
and conclusion. In other words, it was motivated on subjective
grounds. I don't know the full history of the Leuchter Report. As far
as I can recall it was initiated on behalf on revisionism.

	I do recall that Leuchter had to sneak around to collect
samples not having the co-operation of the Polish government and the
report at hand was by investigators having full access to whatever
they wanted. In fact some of the critical parts of Birkenau are off
limits to any out side inspection. On the one hand you have to have a
certain respect for the Polish recognition of the gross exaggeration
of the Auschwitz death toll, and on the other I carry a certain
begrudgment for their not co-operating with independant studies for
confirmation of Holocaust claims.
	We might get the idea that the comments on revisionists was
included independantly by other party(s), and the Polish researchers
required the party(s) to include a sort of disclaimer which appears at
the end: 

"Footnotes:
1. The terms "historical revisionism" and "revisionists" in
the sense used there have been introduced into the
literature of the field under discussion." 
     "Introduced" - "into the literature" to mean, not by the primary
authors of the report?
 
	Anyway, the report starts off after the revisionist comments
with a paragraph on why we might expect to find low concentrations in
other buildings than the real gas (defumigation) chambers. One reason
is because the delousing process took 24 hours and "probably even
longer" as opposed to the gassing of human beings that took only 20
minutes, "according to Rudolph Ho'ss".
	This is very interesting in that we can recognize that the
agent of mass extermination Zyklon B was designed for slow release in
order to maintain a level of suspension in the air to work over the
extended period of time, showing it to have been a poor choice for
mass extermination that would take only 20 minutes, by this account,
others are from 5 to 10 minutes.
	The paragraph ends up explaining that the ruins have been
exposed to climatic events for 45 years which would add up to a
accumulated rainfall of over 100 feet. They did not mention or think
of any other factors involved, such as Holocasut claims that the
chambers were washed out after each gassing, or the agents of freezing
and thawing, or the process of percipitating substances from within
the materials under investigation, like niter deposits, that would
tend to push, displace, combine or possess natural cyanide compounds.
We also have to recognize the 100 feet of water would include
chemicals in solution (acid rain) that would further complicate any
HCN's ability to persevere.
	The report states in the next paragraph, "In our
correspondance with the Management ... in 1989, not knowing the
Leuchter Report then, we expressed ..." This I take it is to belay any
thoughts their tests were induced by the Leuchter Report and thus were
of a purely objective inquiry for the sake of historical accuracy. I
don't believe it. I would say they were goaded into it by parties
eager to maintain the story. After all, it was forty five years later
and after the Leuchter Report.      
	The report then continues in the same paragraph to give a
brief rundown on the previous investigation which began in early 1990.

In "1990 ...  two workers of the Institute of Forensic Research
arrived  on the premises of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Camp  and
took  samples for screening analysis: 10 samples of  plaster
>from   the  delousing chamber (Block No 3 at  Auschwitz),  10
samples  from gas chamber ruins and, in addition, 2  control
samples  from  the buildings which, as living quarters,  had
not  been  in contact with hydrogen cyanide. Out of  the  10
samples from the delousing chamber, seven contained cyanogen
compounds  at concentrations from 9 to  147 ug in conversion
to  potassium  cyanide  (which was  used  to  construct  the
calibration  curve) and 100 g of material.  As  far  as  the
ruins   are   concerned,  the  presence   of   cyanide   was
demonstrated   only  in  the  sample  from  the   ruins   of
Crematorium  Chamber  No  II at  Birkenau.  Neither  of  the
control samples contained cyanides." 

	They found 7 out of the 10 samples taken from the delousing
chambers to have had traces of cyanide. There seems to be certain
vagueness here, but we'll assume it means they found 9 to 147 micro
grams from 100 grams (3.7 oz.) of material specimen. Giving the
Holocaust story the benefit of the two numbers we can us the 147 micro
grams. This would be only .00018 of a 1 gram.  Not a very big ratio
difference. Especially coming from a delousing chamber, what with it
being subjected to round the clock use with Zyklon B.
	As to what was found at alleged gas chambers it says
"presence" of cyanide was found "only in the sample taken from the
ruins of Crematorium Chamber No. II ..." It doesn't refer to any other
gas chamber by title, but we assume some were taken from others. Nor
does it cite any quantitative figures. Since the presence of cyanide
was only .00018 from the delousing chamber, we can assume the amount
>from  Crema II was way, way less.
	Evidentally this investigation wasn't satifactory enough for
someone, and not sufficient enough to deny the already existing
Leuchter Report because - "When  the dispute on the Leuchter Report
arose, we undertook a closer study of the problem, ..."
	So we have the statement that the ensuing investigation was
initiated for the sole purpose of refuting the Leuchter Report. We are
then given a pitch on the exaustive nature of the project and after
naming some participants the report states:
	"Under this collaboration
the  Museum  workers  were providing us  on  the  spot  with
exhaustive  information  concerning  the  facilities  to  be
examined  and - as regards the ruins - a detailed topography
of the gas chambers we were concerned with. And so they made
it  possible for us to take proper samples for analysis.  We
tried to take samples - if at all possible - from the places
best sheltered and least exposed to rainfall, including also
as  far  as possible - fragments of the upper parts  of  the
chambers (hydrogen cyanide is lighter than air) and also  of
the  concrete  floors, with which the gas from  the  spilled
Zyklon B came into contact at rather high concentrations."

	The report makes referrence to a survey for taking samples,
"as regards the ruins - a detailed topography of the gas chambers we
were concerned with." As to what "topography" they are talking about,
no detail is given to what is still existing. The only photograph I've
seen of a alleged gas chamber is a collapsed and caved in structure
identified as Crema II. What remains of the other Birkenau III, IV and
V does not seem to be available for some reason. "Topography"? What
might be left of IV or V say? They were said to have been built above
ground. Are there just some footings left? A few remnants of walls?
What could be left that they could take samples from if even the
Holocaust promotion network doesn't publish any?

	As to Crema III, another underground facility, where are the
photographs if anything was still extant in 1990?  Especially if there
was enough to take samples from. So far we have to recognize that the
report alleges that ruins of some kind yet exist of all four Crema
chambers and that only one photograph of Crema II is given in the
Holocaust promotion circuit.
	The ensuing paragraph in the report tells us about what
material samples were made of, brick, concrete, plastar and mortar,
and that they took chunks or scrappings, put in plastic bags and
numbered. the whole thing was documented, "All these activities were
recorded  and documented with photographs". These photographs
including Cremas III, IV and V we should presume. These photographs
are not, for some reason, on the circuit as Holocaust evidence. In
fact Crema II is the star subject mentioned in the report. One
"Notes:" states:

"Crematorium I at Auschwitz - building preserved but
reconstructed several times 
Crematorium II-V[*] at Birkenau - ruins. Only the ceiling of the
chamber of Crematorium[*] II is in part fairly well preserved."

 "Fairly well preserved" means rubble, including a caved in and
fragmented concrete slab, this being the one and only photograph of
extant ruins of a gas chamber in the Holocaust story's promotion
package.

	Evidentally they must have had some suspicion that someone
might be suspicious of the honesty of the investigation and they put
our minds at ease by telling us "The laboratory  analysis  of  the
material   collected  was  conducted  -   to ensure full
objectivity  -  by another group of Institute workers." Would that be
anything like "putting the cat in charge of the mouse"?

	After telling us about grinding up the specimens they follow
with:                                                       
"Next the samples were subjected to preliminary spectrophotometric
analysis in the infrared  region,  using a Digilab
FTS-16spectrophotometer.
It  was  found that the bands of cyanide groups occurred  in the
region  of  2000-2200 cm-1 in the spectra  of  a  dozen
samples  or  so.  However, the method did not  prove  to  be
sensitive enough and was given up in quantitative
determinations.  It  was determined, using the
spectrographical method, that the main elements  which  made
up  the samples were: calcium, silicon, magnesium, aluminium
and  iron.  Moreover,  titanium was found  present  in  many
samples. From among other metals in some samples there  were
also  barium,  zinc, sodium, manganese and  from  non-metals
boron."
	I personally never heard of spectroscopic studies being used
to determine quantity values, though we may note that any band showing
up under spectroscopic analysis could show up as more intense than
other samples, but it's hard to imagine it being used to give fine
quantitative readings. We might assume the "preliminary" work was done
to see if there were any traces of HCN at all. The report tells us
they found among other none related elements, "bands of cyanide groups
... in the region of 2000-2200 cm-1" without further comment. No
matter, the test were eliminated from consideration anyway.

	Using the "revisionist" word one paragraph states the Leuchter
test were focused on Prussian blue stains which "occurs, especially in
the form of stains, on the outer bricks" of the delousing chambers,
but, "Brick, unlike other building materials, very feebly absorbs
hydrogen cyanide ..." 
	The writer of the paragraph cites another earlier "collective
work" which states the "formation of Prussian blue is simply
improbable" and that the author "takes into consideration (theorized)
that the walls of the delousing chamber were coated with the dye as a
paint". No further explaination is given as to why this might have
been. The report adds "It should be added that this blue coloration
does not appear on the walls of all delousing chambers", without
further comment.
	[*At times I'm not sure who is responsible for passages in the
report. Whenever the revisionist word pops up I think back to the
disclaimer, ["The terms '"historical revisionism"' and
'"revisionists"' in the sense used there have been introduced into the
literature of the field under discussion"] and I take note of any
associated words and sentences.
	Maybe it could be shown that brick does not "absorb" cyanide
compounds but the main term used is "binding". Certainly if someone
suggests the walls were painted with the Prussian Blue, and Prussian
blue does come in a paint format, they would have to admit it has some
binding agency. A theory is far more substantial when it is supported
by further theory or fact. In this case it is not enough someone
theorizes on the paint job without posing a reason why they would have
done it, just in some places. 
	Who knows. Maybe it was localized near exaust fans in the
fumigation facilities, whereby the exausted material would be swirling
in exceleration at the point of exit, and atom by atom built up on the
wall like smoke sticking to, and blackening the tops of smoke stakes.
Brick often can come in the form of blackened red, reeking of iron to
the knowing eye. Prussian Blue is Fe4[FeCN]-9. Meaning it is attached
to iron atom(s). Whatever "stage of oxidation" iron atoms are in
today's Auschwitz test samples does not tell what stage any iron
content of the brick was when it was made.  

	This report goes into some detail about the various kinds of
material tested and whether or not they are wet, dry, old or new
without committing themselves to definitive conclusions.

	A quick note for future referrence is that the report
constantly refers to cyanide "compounds" and that radically different
readings can come from samples collected from the same building, the
same room and even "one chunk".

	There is plenty of confusion in this report, and it
considerably lacks specifics and a certain continuity in that it jumps
around.

	The report gives a primer in the set up of the research. 

"To complete this research on the cyanide compound content in
various  camp  facilities, we decided to carry  out  several
pilotage   experiments.  The  renovation  of  the  Institute
building,  just in progress, provided us with materials  for
this  investigation. We divided particular  constituents  of
these  materials (bricks, cement, mortar and  plaster)  into
several  3-4 gram pieces and placed them to glass  chambers,
in which we generated hydrogen cyanide by reacting potassium
cyanide  and sulphuric acid. We used high concentrations  of
this  gas  (about  2%) and wetted some of the  samples  with
water.  Fumigation took 48 hours at a temperature  of  about
20oC  (Table V). Another series of samples were treated with
hydrogen cyanide as well, but now in the presence of  carbon
dioxide. According to calculations, in the chambers in which
people  had been gassed the carbon dioxide content  produced
in  the breathing process of the victims was rather high and
in  relation to hydrogen cyanide may have been even as  high
as  10:1. In our experiment we applied these two gases  (CO2
and HCN) in the 5:1 ratio. Having been subjected to gassing,
the  samples were aired in the open air at a temperature  of
about  10-15oC.  The first analysis was conducted  48  hours
after the beginning of airing."

	This report leaves off flatly at the end without giving us the
results of the CO2/HCN combo, and begins a new topic about wet and dry
comparisons.
	 
	
	The wet/dry connection. 

"This  series  of  tests  allows the  statement  that  mortar
absorbs and/or binds hydrogen cyanide best and also that wet
materials show a noticeable tendency to accumulate  hydrogen
cyanide  whereas brick, especially old brick, poorly absorbs
and/or binds this compound."

	No relevance is ever stated. It is immediately followed by
table I which list the amount of "Cyanide ions" found in buildings
said to have been gassed only once, the traces being zero.

	This followed by Table II, which involves test done to samples
taken from Block 11, the place where the first gassings were said to
have taken place. They showed one sample had 28,24,24 weight parts per
million, another had 20,16,16, and a third had 0.

	
	TABLE III. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN
           FROM THE CREMATORIUM CHAMBERS (OR THEIR RUINS)
  	   IN WHICH THE VICTIMS WERE GASSED.

	What they mean by the plualization "CHAMBERS" we can only
wonder, and what constitutes "RUINS" we have only the photo of Crema
II.
	Anyway, the results shown range from 0 to 288 in Crema I, 0 to
640 for Crema II, 8 to 68 for Crema III, 0 to 500 for Crema IV and 12
to 248 for Crema V.

	We are then given a professional "Transcription Note" by Ken
McVay: "My copy of this document has two
corrections made, in ballpoint pen, concerning the crematorium
numbers. The first instance could have read "II-IV" in the
original, and the second could have read "III" on the
original, but the ink obscures the original text. knm."

	So we are not sure what we are talking about.
	

	The sporadic and localized nature of any cyanide
concentrations referred to will be covered later in the critique. 

 	Table IV gives us the results of test for "Cyanide ions" in
facilities for fumigation. For one of the two buildings tested the
results were 0 to 4, and for the other 0 to 900. We are informed:

                        "Two series of 
			determinations 	I.  70,30,74,142,422
			were made in 	II. 118,52,80,60,214
			block No 3 in 1990."

	Which is, for the three later tests from the same place, 0 to
900, 30 to 422 and 52 to 214. No further comment is given on the
radically different readings, or on the nature of the low readings
where we would expect the highest. 

	Table IV also includes numbers on the "bath-house" with
readings from 0 to 740 in samples taken from the outside and 28 to 840
on the inside. The bathhouse is not included in the Holocaust package
as a extermination facility. Any build up of Prussian blue could have
come from the same dynamics that caused it at the delousing chambers. 

	Table V gives us the results of tests done to samples, wet,
dry, new and old ranging from 0 in old brick to 2700 in wetted old
mortar 24 hours after being exposed to HCN.

	The report concludes on this test:
"After a month the concentration  of  hydrogen
cyanide  and  its  combinations in  the  materials  examined
decreased  on  the  average by 56% (from  28%  to  86%).  An
apparent  rise in the concentration occurred only in  single
samples. That is so because the samples used for examination
were not always the same. When they had been used up in  the
first run, they had to be replaced by new samples taken from
the  same bigger lumps of material. This supports the thesis
on the local binding of hydrogen cyanide."
	The conclusion does not give us any specifics about the
concentration levels of HCN and "its combinations". Nor does it tell
us which samples decreased by 28% or 86%. But we can take note of the
fact that righteous percentages decreased after just on month when
left on its own, in the absence of the 100 feet of acid rain and other
factors. We can also see that concentration readings vary radically
within one chunk.
	The conclusion does not summarize any relevance of the wet dry
tests and does not expand on its last sentence, "This supports the
thesis on the local binding of hydrogen cyanide". 
	        
	Nearing the end we return to the subject of the HCN/CO2
connection, getting Table VI, which is the results of testing for HCN
after samples, wet and dry, had been exposed to HCN and CO2, as to
conditions for its binding when mixed with the substance of human
exhale.

	The results showed from 24 in old dry brick, to 12800 in fresh
plaster and that decreased after a month to a mean 73%, 17% faster
than the rate for HCN without CO2. The text also includes that "in as
many as four samples the loss was 97% to 100%".

	The report concludes on these wet/dry experiments:
"In this case the CN~ content on mortar (old and fresh) and new brick
was for the most part lower in the wetted materials than in the dry
one. It seems that here a tendeny is revealed towards the competitive
action of carbon dioxide, which dissolves in water. In this series of
tests fresh plaster showed an exceptionally high affinity to hydrogen
cyanide."
	
	The following paragraph which strives to make a relevant
conclusion out of the test with HCN and CO2 on wet and dry samples of
various building materials includes the "revisionist" word.
	
"After  an  interval of a month the mean decrease of hydrogen
cyanide  content  in this material was 73%  and  so  it  was
markedly greater than in the run with hydrogen cyanide only.
In as many as four samples that loss ranged from 97% to 100%
and  then  airing  was nearly complete.  This  statement  is
significant   in   as  much  as  in  their   reasoning   the
revisionists   did  not  take  into  consideration   certain
circumstances, namely, the simultaneous action  of  cyanides
and  carbon dioxide on the chamber walls. In the air exhaled
by  man carbon dioxide constitutes 3.5% by volume. Breathing
for 1 minute, he takes in and next exhales 15-20 dm3 of air,
comprising  on  the average 950 cm3 CO2; consequently,  1000
people  breathe out about 950 dm3 of carbon dioxide. And  so
it  can  be  estimated that, if the victims  stayed  in  the
chamber for 5 minutes before they died, they exhaled 4.75 m3
of carbon dioxide during that period. This is at least about
1%  of the capacity, e. g. of the gas chamber of Crematorium
II  at  Birkenau, the capacity of which was  about  500  m3,
whereas the concentration of hydrogen cyanide virtually  did
not  exceed 0.1% by volume (death occurs soon at as low  HCN
concentrations   as   0.03%  by  volume).   Therefore,   the
conditions  for the preservation of HCN in the gas  chambers
were not better than in the delousing chambers, despite what
the   revisionists  claim.  Besides,  as  has  already  been
mentioned, the chamber ruins have been thoroughly washed  by
rainfall."
	This statement with it's lengthy un-necessary expansion on CO2
exhale was probably written by Ken McVay of Nizkor.

	Regardless, the most the passage concludes on is that
revisionists are mistaken to think any gas chambers are good places to
hold a record of bygone gassings.

	The last test reported has its results listed in Table VII.
Plaster samples were exposed to HCN and flushed with distilled water.
The amount said to have been present before the flushing in one test
was 160 micrograms per kilogram with only 28 left over after flushing,
showing a 72% loss. The other test gave 1200 before flushing with
distilled water and 112 after, a 90.7% loss. No time/quantity values
are given as to the flushing. Should we take into consideration the
minerals and acids and other compounds and elements in rain water
which might have high valence attraction to CN, we could theorize that
the lose would be more like 100%. Conducting the experiment with
distilled water was not reproducing the conditions the facilities
would have been subjected to.

	The report winds up with;

"Final Remarks"

"The  present study shows that in spite of the passage  of  a
considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls  of
the  facilities  which  once were in contact  with  hydrogen
cyanide  the vestigial amounts of the combinations  of  this
constituent  of Zyklon B have been preserved. This  is  also
true  of  the ruins of the former gas chambers. The  cyanide
compounds  occur in the building materials only locally,  in
the  places  where the conditions arose for their  formation
and persistence for such a long time."
	
	Not knowing exactly where the words in the report are by the
real authors and those that were "introduced", we can only consider
the difference in style and subject. The second paragraph under "Final
Remarks" reads: 

"In  his  reasoning  Leuchter (2) claims that  the  vestigial
amounts  of  cyanide combinations detected  by  him  in  the
materials  from  the chamber ruins are residues  left  after
fumigations  carried out in the Camp "once,  long  ago"(Item
14.004  of  the  Report). This is refuted  by  the  negative
results  of  the  examination of the  control  samples  from
living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to  a
single  gassing,  and  the  fact  that  in  the  period   of
fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic
in  mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the  Birkenau
Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to  use
as  late  as  15  March 1943 and the others  several  months
later."

                         ___________

	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
were detected.
	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.
	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.
	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
O reincorporated into something else.  	
	Most likely whatever was found during these tests was probably
CN compounds created within a short time from the time the samples
were taken. New ones precipitate from the material like the white
niter or ammonium nitrate that we can see under bridges and tunnels,
or in caves, only to wash away and be replaced.

	The report does not make any conclusions on why such radically
different results can be arrived at from the same room or piece of
material, when we can suggest this is analogous to naturally occuring
precipitous action that tend to congregate in patches, having found
localized conditions for easy percipitation from within the interior
of the structures material.
	The report does not make a stab at explaining why such low
traces were found in fumigation chambers, in some cases being zero,
when we would expect to find high levels. Judging by photographs of
still extent fumigation chambers, the interiors of these facilities
have been protected from weather conditions.
	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
occur.

	(To be included in any reposting of this analytical critique
will be a detailed composition of the following: One of the ways used
to collect HCN, the component of Zyklon B, is to recover it from coke
ovens. There were a number of coke burning facilities at Auschwitz.
They were used for disgarding refuse, contaminated clothing, heating,
hot water, generation of power for the proximate industrial works, and
nearby civilian facilities. They were also used to cremate people in
the course of the camp, not including mass genocide. We have to
consider any fall out from all this and the subsequent uses of coke
ovens in the area, over the years and unto this day, as a possible
source of any cyanide "compounds" found today.)    


	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
story. 
	
                                              Tom Moran	 
	






From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May  6 11:18:49 PDT 1996
Article: 34997 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Obersturmfuehrer Hoessler Testifies About Mass Murder in Auschwitz
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:52:21 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Hoessler  
>[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge
>and Company, 1949, p. 714-715]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Everyone in the camp knew about the gas chamber at Auschwitz,

" Everyone in the camp knew about the gas chamber at Auschwitz, ..."

The camp having 100,000 prisoners, hundreds of guards, and a thousand
civilian workers going in on a daily basis and having direct contact
with the prisoners and guards.


>I made many complaints to Hoess about the way people were being sent to
>the gas chamber, but I was told it was not my business.
                              ======= 

Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Fritz Klein 
[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge
and
Company, 1949.p. 717]
----------------------------------------------------------------
"I never protested against people being sent to the gas chambers, 
although I never agreed. One cannot protest when in the army."
                              =======

SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"We were to keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we
would have to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death
penalty..."

>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May  6 11:18:49 PDT 1996
Article: 35004 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 13:49:53 GMT
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"Richard J. Green"  wrote:

>Mark,
>
>Thanks.  Just two comments:
>
>On Sun, 5 May 1996, Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>
>> "Prime among its properties is its low bioling point- it tranforms itself
>> completely into gas at 25.7 C. To understand its effectiveness in killing
>> human beings, one need only to compare this bioling point with that of
>> ethyl ether, which is 34.5 C. It is well known that a little ether poured
>> nto the palm of the hand evaporates almost immediately, because the
>> average temperature of human skin is around 34 C. This temperature means
>> for hydrocyanic acid what 132 C means for water. In other words, for
>> hydrocyanic acid, the surface of the human is as hot as a surface heated
>> to 132 C would be for water.
>
>All of this is true, but note that neither ether nor HCN need reach their
>boiling points to evaporate completely very fast.  That's due to the high
>vapor pressure of these liquids as I have posted before.
>
>> "A second notable property of this acid is its density in its gaseous
>> state: 0.95 compared to air. In other words, hydrocyanic acid vapors are
>> lighter than air and thus rise in the atmosphere. That is why experiments
>> using HCN as a comabt gas were abandoned during the First World War.
>
>This argument makes very little sense.  Oxygen is much heavier than
>nitrogen, yet we breathe more nitrogen than oxygen.

	There are 92 naturally occurring elements. They are numbered
in a couple of ways. One referrence system is by numbers of plus
charge nucleons, protons, and the other is by over all nucleons,
protons and neutrons. Nitrogen is number "6" and oxugen is number "7".
And Mr. Green says, "Oxygen is much heavier than nitrogen". 


>Regards,
>
>Rich
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford, CA 94305-5080 
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>"If it works, take it apart and find out why."  - unknown
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue May  7 05:10:10 PDT 1996
Article: 35118 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Congress passes TREASON
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 14:24:51 GMT
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EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>Date: Friday, 26-Apr-96 03:10 PM
>
>JAMES FLOYD on 'true believers'
>
>Last week our noble House of Representatives did a very ignoble thing.  
>They
> voted 240 to zero to condemn what they termed "Holocaust denial."  This 

	Next time get it right Huber. It was 420 - 0. The others must
have been home with the flu, otherwise it would have been a Full
House. 90 - 0, 89 - 0, 400 - 0, always some big figure - 0 when it
comes to endorsing Jewish causes. When it comes to voting on real
national interests, its a stall. 


>writer and his friend have made a game of attempting to find another 
>dogma 
>which could have brought about this same unanimous meeting of the minds.  
>
>Could Congress have marched in joint step to any other drumbeat?  Have 
>they
> ever expressed unanimity regarding any other "true fact" of history, 
>religion, political affairs, permissible foreplay, or even accord in 
>financing life-altering projects such as the Lawrence Welk Museum?   The
>answer is simply, no.
>
>One can only imagine the donnybrook if a chitling-sucking preacher 
>demanded
> that this august body sanction a tenent of the majority religion.  What 
>a 
>headline:  "Reverent Billy Joe goes to Washington and forces Congress to 
>
>condemn anti-feetwashers."
>
>                         Simon says, "Stand on one leg and repeat after
>me...."
>
>We are not allowed to deny - "Every J-w must reserve in his inner-being a 
>
>zone of hate, healthy, virile hate, for the German and for what the 
>German 
>personifies."  Elie Weasel, pg. 142, "Legends of Our Times"
>
>We are not allowed to deny - Mr. Arnold  Friendman's testimony that the 
>crematoria chimneys shot "fourteen foot flames" into the air over 
>Auschwitz,
> and that one could tell from the yellow smoke that they (the Germans) 
>were
> gassing/burning skinny Polish J-ws. When the smoke changed to blue, they 
>
>knew that these were fat Hungarian J-ws.
>
>We are not allowed to deny - At Babi Yar, near Kiev in the Ukraine, the  
>
>Germans gunned-down an unspecified number of J-ws.  "Eyewitnesses say 
>that 
>for months after the killings, the ground continued to spurt geysers of 
>blood into the air."  Elie Weasel, pg. 48, "The J-ws of Silence."
>
>And again - "For month after month, the ground never stopped trembling; 
>and,
> from time to time, geysers of blood spurted from it."  Weasel, "Paroles 
>
>d'etranger", pg. 86.
>
>"THE PURE AND SIMPLE TRUTH IS RARELY PURE AND NEVER SIMPLE."
>                                                                          
>-
>OSCAR WILDE -
>
>                                                                          
> 
> 
>        James Floyd
>**********************
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:05 PDT 1996
Article: 35131 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The best of Nizkor
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


Uncanny!  the Giwer-troll, mistakenly thinking that he "thinks",
demonstrates that the product of his thought processes yields nothing
less than utter fabrication - as anyone who hasn't yet killfiled him
can attest.

hor

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:06 PDT 1996
Article: 35172 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism = amti-Semitism?
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 12:24:19 GMT
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anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote in response to my posting of a
>Martin Luther King speech equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism: 
>>: 
>>: 	Martin Luther King Jr. endorses all Zionist activety,
>>: including the slaughter of children, adult civilians, rousting whole
>>: populations, bombing refugee camps, razing family homes, uprooting
>>: peoples orchards, imprisonment without trial and all else. Is this
>>: what your saying Annie? 
>>
>Poorly constructed straw man, TM.  Even the big bad wolf wouldn't have
>to strain his gonads to blow it down. By the way, did you notice the
>date on that speech?   Your preoccupation with Israel-bashing says more
>than I ever could, so I'll just let your words speak for themselves.

	Actually Annie, you could have left out the first two
sentences. I hate to see a lady wallow.
	Yea, I noticed the date. Maybe you would like to post some
relevance. I see the date as an indictment against those who would use
King's letter since many unaesthetic deeds have happened since then,
to which King may have had a beef. The most that can be said is that
King would seem to appear not to have had a problem with Zionism
before 1968. I myself had no problem with it until around 1976 or so.

	The heading to your article,

"From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," _Saturday
Review_XLVII (Aug.  1967), p. 76.  Reprinted in M.L. King Jr.,
_This I Believe:  Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther
King Jr._ (New York, 1971), pp. 234-235.)"

	It is obvious that this letter got some accomodation in the
two publications. Do I know if this letter wasn't solicited? I don't. 

	Do I have a "preoccupation" with Jews? I have a lot of
preoccupations. If one should formulate an opinion one should have
some knowledge. I had no opinion about Jews at all until 1980 and over
the years it developed.
>-- 
>Annie Alpert
>
>"All would be well,
> All would be heavenly--
> If the damned would only stay damned."--Charles Fort, 1919



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:07 PDT 1996
Article: 35173 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism = amti-Semitism?
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 12:25:19 GMT
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
>: 
>: 
>: 	Martin Luther King Jr. endorses all Zionist activety,
>: including the slaughter of children, adult civilians, rousting whole
>: populations, bombing refugee camps, razing family homes, uprooting
>: peoples orchards, imprisonment without trial and all else. Is this
>: what your saying Annie? 
>
>Idiot.  you still don't know what Zionism is.  What you just said is akin
>to sating that someone who supports democracy supports every action taken
>by democracy, a la "If he supports democracy, you're sayng he supports the
>US burning of villages in Vietnam."
>
>Duh.  Of course this isn't true.  One can support Zionism, the political
>aspiration of Jewish statehood, without supporting everything Israel does.

	I think if Annie posts this King statement, she is trying to
use his credentials as an endorement of Zionism. There is nothing
itemized as to any exclusions from Martin Luther King Jr.s statement. 

>If you wanted, you could try and make an argument that Zionism MUST lead
>to those things.  But if you don't want to look like an idiot, I suggest
>you read a little political science first.

I see the actions of Zionism. I see the words of Zionists. I see
something that assaults my personal aesthetics. I post. You respond.
Your hypothetical argument "that Zionism MUST lead to those things",
is interesting. Perhaps if one should consider the base history of
those who make up Zionism it might seem inevitable. As it is, Zionism
has led to "those things". 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:08 PDT 1996
Article: 35182 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 12:56:09 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4mg0ha$gkv@boris.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >tom moran  wrote:
>> 
>> ># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
>> ># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
>> ># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
>> ># The results were next to nothing.
>> 
>> >I guess that's the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>> >like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>> >and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>> >never said?
>> 
>> >Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>> >in Treblinka. 
>> 
>> ># Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the
>> ># results being next to nothing. 
>> 
>> >Another outright lie. Cyanide compounds were discovered in
>> >the remians of all the gassing installations. This fact was
>> >posted here, together with the very detailed report written
>> >by the chemists who did the tests. 
>> 
>
>Not to mention that in 1965 the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum
>commissioned Hydrokop to help to determine the location of the
>incineration pits. 303 sites were drilled. Traces of human ashes, bone,
>and hair were found at 42 of the sites. (_Anantomy_, p.179)

	"Traces"?
	Hair found after being burned? After 40 years in the ground?
"Traces" of ash?
	I've seen this report referred to out here before. The reports
on the report are similar, citing only "traces". The way to present
evidence is, to present the whole thing. Where were the probes made?
How deep? At what depths did they find anything. What examinations did
they make of the regolithic sequence as to any disruption? What
quantities of hair, bone and human ash constitutes "traces"? What kind
of tests did they do to determine if the ash was from humans? Why
wouldn't they cut cross sections at any test sites they thought
positive? This would expose layers, like one should expect. 
	This is in the same ilk as the other probe made at Treblinka
in 1947, which carries the wordings "unspecified amount of ash" and
"some large bones".
	

>> Remember Swiger hoisting this petard on Compuserve? :-)
>
>Better yet, remember Tommy's prognostications about menorahs, trees,
>rocks, etc.? (i.e. Anything he was ignorant of)
>
>Hell, Tommy-the-fruitcake has been hoisted on his own petard so many times
>its truly amazing! And the dim-bulb just keeps plodding on like a
>cud-chewing cow! 
>
>I am reminded of the "Black Knight" scene in _Holy Grail_ for some reason.... 
>
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:09 PDT 1996
Article: 35183 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Historians Agree: Goldhagen is a Schmuck
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 12:56:30 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <318a1463.1814007@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> 
>>>A week ago I posted a review of Goldhagen's Book, "Hitler's Willing
>>>Executioners", castigating the obvious anti-German bias of this foolish
>>>book.
>>>I further pointed out that the one of main problems with the book is that
>>>thesis was a-historical, because it was subjective.  No one responded to
>>>that review, because moderately worded entries never get responses on THIS
>>>board.
>>>
>>>Gordon Craig, professor emeritus at Stanford, in the latest New York
>>>Review
>>>of Books (p. 52, Number 9) writes:
>> 
>>>"My reservations are rooted in the fact that G. argues a case that
>>> requires historical proof if it is to be accepted with almost no
>>> reference to historical evidence." 
>> 
>>	This is why the HDL is so eager to snuggle up with the book
>>and purr as they read along. They don't need any historical evidence.
>
>    Actually Tommy,
>
>    1. Ehrlich is making an argument about two orders of magnitude more
>    sophisticated than you regularly function.
>
>    2. Several of us (whom you refer to as HDL types) have posted that we
>    are uncomfortable with Goldhagen's thesis.
>
>    So, as usual, you are missing what is really being said here, Tommy.

	Really? "Uncomfortable" you say? Do you have some examples? 


>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:09 PDT 1996
Article: 35184 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:01:57 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>  >
>>  >	When the adversary is you, the word "lie" becomes accurate.  You did, 
>>  >for example,  attribute acts of the KKK (actually the KKKK) to a "Jewish 
>>  >organization."  When you were corrected on teh facts you ran and hid.  In fact, 
>>  >you effectively restated your lie by stating "I stand pat."
>
>>  	This is about the sixth time you've stated the above, with
>>  Moran always coming back and asking you to show exactly where.
>>  Obviously you can't. Obviously your emotionally disturbed.
>
>
>	Another lie.  You have never asked me "to show exactly where" you 
>have taken the path of the weasel and demanded to be shown where you typed 
>the letters "KKK."  As you have been told several times, you did so in your post 
>entitled "Time for the Showdown."  Please compare the text of Capital Square v. 
>Pinette 115 S.Ct. 2440 to your statement that it was an action brought by a 
>"Jewish conspiracy" to allow the display of the Menorah while prohibiting the 
>cross.  Please note as well that when this was pointed out to you, your response 
>was "I stand pat."
>
>	Obviously I can point it out to you.  Obviously if I am disturbed it is 
>because, as a Jew, I do not like people who lie about Jews.  You lie about  Jews.

	Show it.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:10 PDT 1996
Article: 35186 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:06:46 GMT
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Richard J. Green (rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>: In article <318e01f5.983377@news.pacificnet.net>,
>: tom moran  wrote:
>
>: >	There are 92 naturally occurring elements. They are numbered
>: >in a couple of ways. One referrence system is by numbers of plus
>: >charge nucleons, protons, and the other is by over all nucleons,
>: >protons and neutrons. Nitrogen is number "6" and oxugen is number "7".
>: >And Mr. Green says, "Oxygen is much heavier than nitrogen". 
>
>: Mr. Moran correctly though somewhat awkwardly describes the difference
>: between atomic number and atomic mass.  He then goes on to confuse
>: atomic number for atomic mass.
>
>And he gets the atomic numbers wrong, too.  Nitrogen is "7" and oxygen is
>"8."  (Carbon is "6," with an atomic weight of 12.011).
>
>: The molecular mass of N2 is thus 28 a.m.u. . . .
>: The molecular mass of O2 is thus 32 a.m.u.  

	Thanks for correction, which does nothing to show "Oxygen is
much heavier than nitrogen". 


>And, for what it's worth, the molecular weight of HCN is 27, and that of
>Cl2 (chlorine gas) is 71.
>
>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"_Cro_, the Children's Television Workshop's attempt at a commercially
>appealing science cartoon show, will be cancelled in September by
>ABC TV. . . . In _Cro_'s time slot will go _Dumb and Dumber_, a cartoon
>about two moronic louts, derived from the movie of the same name."
>                    -- _Science_, 3 March 1995



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:11 PDT 1996
Article: 35187 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:25:54 GMT
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	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same
general path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and
cremation, and also the acitivities of the Einsatzgruppens, the
preceding "anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable
treatment to establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding
1939. After all, if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put
to death, they have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena
to have been killed.
       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
(estimated)". In this table he has three verticle columns:

   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"


	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
5,200,000 in just 210 years.
	It seems that Bauer's list has Jewish population expanding at
an incredible rate between 1650 and 1860, where between 1800 and 1825
alone, the "estimated" Jewish population almost doubled from 1,500,000
to 2,730,000 in the 25 year period, all this increase taking place
during a time when the average life expectancy of man was about 50
some years, further stressed by wars, famines and plagues, and the
Jews undergoing "massive progroms".
	One has to wonder how these "estimated" figures for dates from
1650 to 1860 would have been compiled in 1931. Especially since those
dates were times when communications and census capacities were
extremely low. If in fact there is such a book as the one cited as the
source, we would have to view the whole line of recogning offered in
the book to determine if the statistics aren't just founded on wishful
thinking.
	("Argumentum ad ignorantum: An argument purporting to
demonstrate a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of
facts and reasons the falsity or inadequacy of which is not readily
diserned.")
	  
	By the early 20th Century Bauer, using a map from map happy
Gilbert, has the Jewish population up to 8,700,000 in Europe and
11,487,000 world wide.
	Its obvious that Holocaust books give consider effort to
establishing Jewish populations in order to show that there were
enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6,000,000.  Without
such treatment the story would be more stressed than it is on other
fronts.
	As usual, in their blantant tossing around of terms and
numbers, they include something that further throws suspicions on
their claims, and in this case Bauer offers us a map from Gilbert:

	"Some early records of Jewish town life in Europe before
1600":
that has to resort to listing the most obscure events to show that
Jews were even present in Europe. For Cologne 960 , it has "The local
Jews send a letter to Palestine asking for verification of a rumor
that a Messiah had come", not meaning Jesus Christ we can assume. In
Brussel 1310, "A Jewish scribe completes a fine illuminated
manuscript". In Munich 1228, "A Jew appears in court as a witness
during a trial", and 1173 at Wroclawek "Local coins discovered with
Hebrew inscriptions". So it seems it is necessary to pick up on wee
fragments of evidence to even show Jews existed in Europe by 1300 or
so. Given the Jewish penchant to seek out and hold anything Jewish,
this hardly seems like sufficient history to support the 700,000
Jewish population said to have been in existance by 1650.   	
	We might even want to consider the stories about millions of
Jews fleeing into the Soviet Union, which is said to already have had
a sizable Jewish population during WWII, and then ending up at only
about 2,500,000 or so by 1980. No problem here for Bauer's numbers
since he has about a million of them migrating to the U.S. at the end
of the 19th Century which would put the WWII population of Jews in the
U.S.S.R. low enough to accept the millions said to have fled the Nazis
and still be able to arrive at the numbers in recent times.
       Whatever happened to those million or so Russian Jews said to
have migrated to the U.S. at the end of the 19th century we can only
wonder, since if there was a million here by that time we would expect
millions more here and now in 1996, which there aren't to this day.
	Exaggerations, thorough fabrications - lies. Thats this aspect
of the Holocaust story, as with the rest. 	



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:12 PDT 1996
Article: 35188 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:26:53 GMT
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	Holocaust books donate a considerable amount of space to
establishing a Jewish population in Europe to be able to maintain the
6,000,000 Jewish victims claim. This topic is covered to a certain
degree on alt.rev. under "Hebrew Numerology".
	Tallying of the Jewish population takes on the same dynamics
as the evolving numerology of the Holocaust story in general, where
anywhere between 300,000 and 4,000,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz,
10, 11 or 12 million people in all were exterminated by Germany, that
anywhere btween 7, 8 or 9 hundred thousand Jews were in Hungary - etc.
	Even to this day there seems to be a wide variation as to the
existing Jewish population in the world. Figures that pop up here and
there range from 13 million to 16 million to 20 million, take your
pick. 
	Since the Jews accounting of their numbers at this time is so
widely varied, how can we accept their accounts of their population
during and preceding the Holocaust story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:13 PDT 1996
Article: 35189 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:34:33 GMT
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	Quite often the topic of Jewish population before the war pops
up on alt.revisionism. It is important to the Holocaust story to show
there were enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6 million.
Most of the time, those in favor of the story respond to challenges by
citing German estimates on the population of Jews in Europe.
Something like, 'WHAT? What are you talking about? Look, even the
Germans estimated ...'.

	As it turns out these estimates are deeply suspect.

	"In the final solution conference of January 20, 1942, the
Reich Main Security Office offered the following population statistics
for these countries: Findland 2,300; ... Netherlands, 165,000; ...
Romania, 342,000; ... Hungary, 742,000; ... France (occupied) 165,000;
... France (unoccupied), 700,000; The total is 2,475,100. But the sum
was inflated, principally because of the gross over-estimate for
unoccupied France, by about 600,000 people."
                                                       *Raul Hilberg
	
	Lets summarize: The one number was 700,000 and the correction
is 100,000. This figure of the number of Jews in France is put at
70,000 in recent referrences.
	The same list has 700,000 Jews living in Hungary before the
war. Other figures put it at 800,000 and 900,000. Since the Jewish
population of France was ten times what it is alleged to be now, we
have to consider the same ratio applies to the Hungarian 700,000,
which puts a big quink into the allegations that 200,000 to 450,000
were gassed at Auschwitz.
	Well so much for citing German estimates as proof there were
enough Jews in Europe to validify the numerical part of the story.
_________________________



	* We can thank Raul Hilberg in his demonstration of
objectivety and honesty for reporting on this 700,000 only being
100,000. Evidentally there was just too much of one thing or not
enough of another available for world scrutiny to maintain this number
of 700,000. 
	In light of this development, should we just accept this as a
one exception out of the other 15 countries mentioned or would it be
justified to take this a step further and apply this same ratio to
revise the rest, like Hungary, reported to have had 700,000 Jews.
(Pressac now claims 200 to 250 thousand Hungarian Jews were delivered
to Auschwitz instead of 450,000.) Perhaps the 700,000 reported to have
been in Hungary is more like 100,000 also, or even much less.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:14 PDT 1996
Article: 35199 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 14:51:47 GMT
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   For about the seventh time, Mr.Edieken states Moran has said the
KKK is a Jewish organization. This last time thus far, 

>"Another lie.  You have never asked me "to show exactly where" you 
>have taken the path of the weasel and demanded to be shown where you 
>typed the letters "KKK."  As you have been told several times, you
>did so in your post entitled "Time for the Showdown."
5/6
"Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth"
 
5/1
Under the post "Holocaust of Mind"

>	"A very accurate description of your anti-Semitic rants.  But this is not fair.  
>To set a new record for L'il Tommy's lies in one post you must come up with new 
>material, not recycle your own lies.  Admittedly after describing  the KKK as a "Jewish 
>organization" and exulting in a gang of thugs beating up a little girl your efforts would 
>be hard to top.  But why don't you start simply.  You have lied about a mayor of 
>Philadelphia attacking Jewish political groups?  Why don't you make up up another 
>lie and name him?"
>
>	--YFE

	I see you have mentioned three things above as Moran's lies.
Can you show that you are not lying by posting the evidence of Moran's
lies? Can you show that Moran ever even typed the letters "KKK"? Show
your stuff.
                                                     Moran

5/2 under the post "The word '"Anti-Semitic"' [theorem]"
>Yes, but most people consider the source.  In this case the source is 
>someone whose hatred of Jews is so extreme that he claimed that the KKK was a 
>"Jewish organization."
>	--YFE

	Heres how you do it Mr.Edeiken. You post the exact copy where
Moran typed the letters "KKK". Go for it.
                                                    Moran


5/2
And again under "Holocaust of Mind"

> I think you were 
>telling the truth when you made it.  Second I did not say you typed "KKK;"  I stated 
>that you have described the KKK as a "Jewish organization."  You have specifically 
>in the post "Time for a Showdown."

	Heres the way you do it. You post the part where I "have
described the KKK as a '"Jewish organization". You say it's in a
specific post, so you shouldn't have any problem finding it.
                                                       Moran
5/6
Under "Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth"
>When the adversary is you, the word "lie" becomes accurate.  You did, 
>for example,  attribute acts of the KKK (actually the KKKK) to a "Jewish 
>organization."  When you were corrected on teh facts you ran and hid.  In fact, 
>you effectively restated your lie by stating "I stand pat."
>
>	--YFE

	This is about the sixth time you've stated the above, with
Moran always coming back and asking you to show exactly where.
Obviously you can't. Obviously your emotionally disturbed.
                                                     Moran


	The post Mr.Edeiken identifies as containing the "KKK"
statement by Moran. Okay Mr.Edeiken - go for it. Show the "KKK"
statement.

A number of months ago, Moran posted an account about Jewish
attempts to have the cross banned from public display while pushing to
have the menorah excluded from any, seperation of church and state
clause, they used as part of their attack.
	Moran had made referrence to a court case where he stated the
court made a determination that the cross should be banned on the
grounds it was a religious symbol and menorah should be excluded from
this because it was a secular symbol.
	Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
matching the situation.
	He submitted a press release that somewhat clarified the real
nature of the case. The full details of the case are still unknown to
Moran and evidentally to the HDL since they have posted no more
details on the case. From what was revealed, it appears a ruling was
made to exclude the menorah from any consideration when it came time
to determine if the cross was legitimate for display. Evidentally the
appeals court over turned the ruling, not going for the petitioning
party(s)'s argument that the menorah "was beyond religion".
	Moran regrets any pain and suffering he may have caused in his
not getting the details of the case totally straight. My heart goes
out to all those in the HDL who got themselves into fits of dispare,
flopping around on the floor, wrenching their garments etc.
	Anyway, as it turns out, the HDL has been on Moran's heels
ever since. Particularly when Moran posts something that excedes the
HDL's capacity to chutzpah against. They get themselves into a huff
and them resort to diverting over to the menorah situation. Moran has
pointed out that by their focusing on this one little thing shows they
in turn tacitly admit that Moran's other posts are too tough to deal
with and the HDL has to resort to focusing on something they think
they are capable of using to discredit Moran. Something like 'Oh. Look
at that one black grain of sand on the beach. Therefore the beach is
black'. Actually the HDL should thank Moran for his little faux pas,
since they have used it so many times to divert attention away from
and avoiding responses directly to many of Moran's posts.
	For the most part Moran was correct in his referrence to the
court case. There was a procedure to have the cross banned while
excluding the menorah from any clauses used to have the cross banned.
The argument that the menorah is "beyond religion" has a certain smell
to it, like a spoonful of chutzpah.
	In actuality there was considerable events that preceded this
court case and Moran gave a run down on it in his initial post on the
topic. Evidentally the HDL doesn't have any gripes with the rest of
the accounting, which was 90% of the story, since they keep focusing
on the court case exclusively.

	Since Moran plans on inserting this in the future to any
subsequent resurrections of the matter by the HDL, as has happened
perhaps thirty times over the last couple of months, Moran is going to
include a brief rundown on all the events he can recall about the
nationwide attempt by the Jews to have the cross banned while pressing
to have their menorah excluded from any consideration in the same.  
	
	It all started around one Christmas in Beverly Hills. A cross
was erected and displayed in a park that is right adjacent to Century
City along Santa Monica Boulevard. Jewish forces went into the attack
mode and challenged its presence. The report was made in the
L.A.Times. The next year the same thing came up and this time the Jews
in Beverly Hills defended the menorah, which was displayed in the same
park, as being a "secular symbol" and should not come under the same
reasoning used to ban the cross in that it was a religious symbol.
	Eventually, the word got around the Jewish community and the
attacks on the cross rose up in other cities across the country. Moran
being in the Philadelphia area one Christmas came across an article
about one of the attacks were the mayor of the town stated they
weren't going to allow the Jews to use the display of religious
symbols "for political reasons".  
	Moran had also in the last year or two recieved an article
>from  an associate in Florida about a shopping center which had a
policy of not allowing any religious symbols at all to be displayed,
but the Jews took offense that the menorah was included in this ban.
Utilizing their standard form of harrasement, they bombarded the
management with letters and phone calls and demonstrated to have the
menorah excluded from this ban on the grounds it is a "secular
symbol".
	Of course Moran's ability to amass all the events of Jews
conspiring to have the cross benned while having their own religious
symbol excluded is limited, but there must be many more. There is one
major Christian organization that has a wide collection of Jewish
attacks on their particular denomination and on the Christian
community in general, but this can not be revealed at this time
without their permission.
	For the Jews to assert the menorah is "secular" is putting the
spoon of chutzpah to your mouths, and Moran will leave out, at this
time, the overwhelming amount of evidence that can be presented to
show the use of the "secular" word is an insult, in anticipation the
HDL will come out and try to put the spoon of chutzpah to our mouths.
	Ah yes, if not "secular", then "beyond religion".  	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:14 PDT 1996
Article: 35395 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 13:58:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3190a662.2367212@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  
>>     For about the seventh time, Mr.Edieken states Moran has said the
>>  KKK is a Jewish organization. This last time thus far, 
>>  
>>>>>
>	I have said so because you described the actions taken by the KKK and 
>labeled them as actions of a "Jewish organziation" in furtherance of of a "Jewish 
>conspiracy." 

	Thanks for admitting the "seventh time".

> You did so in the post "Time for a Showdown."  I am willing an able 
>to prove it you Jew hating coward.  Pick up the telephone, dial 213-383-6516.  
>Make the arrangements.

	And here you are with the eigth. What is all this about a
phone number when the article you say it's in is posted right here. 
For the eigth time Mr.Edeiken, where, exactly, are the "KKK" letters.
>
>	Either that or retract your lies which, I note, you insist on repeating yet 
>again.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:15 PDT 1996
Article: 35396 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 14:04:02 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 9
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	There has been a follow up to this article on the Allies
dumping of the massive amounts of chemical arms into the sea. Seems
the containers are nearing the time that they will burst open to the
influneces of the sea and will unleash the vast quantities of lethal
substances and the sea will begin to die completely.
	The legacy.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:16 PDT 1996
Article: 35397 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is "Jew baiting"?
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 14:06:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 2
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	?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:17 PDT 1996
Article: 35398 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: #Elie Wiesel Says Hate Still Prowls !
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 14:16:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 4
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:369281 alt.politics.libertarian:161740 alt.politics.democrats.d:73811 alt.politics.usa.republican:192516 alt.politics.usa.congress:35898 alt.politics.reform:66540 alt.activism:44632 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:302111 soc.culture.jewish:48445 alt.revisionism:35398


	Elie Wiesel, speaking at the Steven Wise Center in L.A. about
eight years ago;
	"I can't say anything bad about another Jew."


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:18 PDT 1996
Article: 35454 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Assault on Swiss accelerated, now 7Bil
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 15:05:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 11
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	Actually this whole thing started a couple of years ago. The
first report in the news mentioned the billions.
	They, the Jews, then de-escalated the amounts in order to get
into the books and now that they are there they reup it to the
billions. 
	It will be revealing to see what kind of chutzpah recogning
they will use to build a few million into the billions. Already they
are claiming extraordinary interest rates. Perhaps they will dream up
some kind of 'special penalties' that should be levied against the
Swiss people.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:18 PDT 1996
Article: 35455 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay folds to Moran's royal flush
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 13:40:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 44
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>In article <317cdf31.1598482@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>>	tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	What? Still no McVay?
>
>>	What? Still no McVay?
>
>>	What? Still no McVay?
>
>> 	What? Still no McVay?	
>> 	
>
>>Several days ago I posted an article claiming that Mr. Moran makes
>>things up out of whole cloth and posts them as the truth.  To date he
>>has not contradicted this post.

	Did he say exactly what Moran was lying about?  No.

>If he did, he would be, um, lying.
>
>
>>--
>>Harry Katz
>
>>How may a man obtain greatness?  By fidelity, truth,
>>and lofty thoughts.
>>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:19 PDT 1996
Article: 35460 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST OF MIND
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 13:52:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <3188bc65.955749@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>  >	A very accurate description of your anti-Semitic rants.  But this is not fair.  
>>  >To set a new record for L'il Tommy's lies in one post you must come up with new 
>>  >material, not recycle your own lies.  Admittedly after describing  the KKK as a 
>"Jewish 
>>  >organization" and exulting in a gang of thugs beating up a little girl your efforts 
>would 
>>  >be hard to top.  But why don't you start simply.  You have lied about a mayor of 
>>  >Philadelphia attacking Jewish political groups?  Why don't you make up up 
>another 
>>  >lie and name him?
>>  >
>>  >	--YFE
>>  
>>  	I see you have mentioned three things above as Moran's lies.
>>  Can you show that you are not lying by posting the evidence of Moran's
>>  lies? Can you show that Moran ever even typed the letters "KKK"? Show
>>  your stuff.
>
>
>	First learn to read English.  The three were repeats of statements that you 
>have made.  One certainly is not one of your lies.  Specifically I do not think you were 
>lying when you exulted in a group of thugs beating up a Jewish girl. 

	Heres the way you do it. You post the part where I "exulted".

> I think you were 
>telling the truth when you made it.  Second I did not say you typed "KKK;"  I stated 
>that you have described the KKK as a "Jewish organization."  You have specifically 
>in the post "Time for a Showdown."

	Heres the way you do it. You post the part where I "have
described the KKK as a '"Jewish organization". You say it's in a
specific post, so you shouldn't have any problem finding it.
>
>	I most assuredly can prove two of my statements; the evidence is contained 
>in your posts.  The third is your claim that a mayor of Philadelphia complained about 
>political attacks by Jews.  As soon as you have the guts to name him I will prove that 
>a lie as well.  I note you have so far refused to do.

	Hweres the way you do it. Post the exact lines where I said
anything like the above. Go for it.
>
>	I am willing to prove them.  You know when and where.  Just dial 
>213-386-2251 (the number of the AAA in Los Angeles) and make the arrangements.
>
>  	Time for L'il Tommy to run and hide again.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:20 PDT 1996
Article: 35462 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How Would One Know For Sure
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 13:55:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3188be8d.1507746@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  	
>>  	Argumentum ad ignorantiam: An argument purporting to
>>  demonstrate a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of
>>  facts and reasons the falsity or inadequecy of which is not readily
>>  discernable.
>
>	A great example  of this is L'il Tommy.  His hatred of Jews is so extreme 
>that he tells us how bad Jews are and cites something done by the KKK as part 
>of a conspiracy by a "Jewish organization."


	Post the copy Mr.Edeiken. Where exactly did Moran type the
letters "KKK"?

>	--YFE
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:20 PDT 1996
Article: 35463 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 13:56:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <3188bef9.1614849@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	"Deus ex machina".
>>  
>>  	Random House Dictionary:
>>    1. "a god who resolves the entanglements of the play by his super
>>  natural forces".
>>    2. "an artificial, forced or improbable device used to resolve the
>>  difficulties of a plot".
>
>
>	One recent us of this was when L'il Tommy wanted to prove that Jews 
>were conspirators.  To further his argument he cited something done by the KKK 
>and told us that a "Jewish organization" had been responsible.  L'il Tommy will 
>grasp at any straw to justify his hatred of Jews.
>>  
>>  	One would think that if a person or a side had good argument
>>  for/or against something they would rely on introducing information or
>>  logic to show their views. Barring this we have to recognize that if
>>  anyone resorts to blanket insults or name calling it is a sign of
>>  break down. 	            

	
	Post the copy Mr.Edeiken. Where exactly did Moran type the
letters "KKK"?



>	For example, if L'il Tommy *really* had a factual basis for his allegations 
>he would not have been forced to inform the world that something done by the 
>KKK was done by a "Jewsih organization."
>
>
>>                     - Argumentum ad hominem: -
>>                    
>>           "An irrelvant or malicious appeal to personal circumstances;
>>  it consists in diverting an argument from sound facts and reasons to
>>  the personality of the opponent."
>>  	         Calling the opponent names. 
>>  	         Making snide little remarks.
>
>	Calling you an anti-Semite is not calling names.  It is an exercise in 
>taxonomy.
>  
>>  	       Another term for it is, 'EVASION'.
>
>	A good example of this is L'il Tommy.  He has stated that a mayor of 
>Philadelphia made a certain statement about Jews.  He refuses to name that 
>person.  And, of course, we are all still waiting for L'il Tommy to name a court 
>decision where it was declared that the Meorah was a secular symbol.  The last 
>time he tried he cited a case where one of the concurring opinions stated that the 
>Christian *cross* was secular symbol.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:21 PDT 1996
Article: 35465 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 14:02:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <3188c042.1944015@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  	I would say 'most'.
>
>	Yes, but most people consider the source.  In this case the source is 
>someone whose hatred of Jews is so extreme that he claimed that the KKK was a 
>"Jewish organization."


	Heres how you do it Mr.Edeiken. You post the exact copy where
Moran typed the letters "KKK". Go fo it.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:22 PDT 1996
Article: 35469 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The best of Nizkor
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 14:09:42 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3188c209.2399069@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	Hilary, needs help. Usually, the Holocaust Defense League
>comes running to side with anything by one and another. 
>	But poor Hilary they have left to flap in the breeze all by
>her lonesome.
>	Interesting silence.
>	
>T s b t o.

	On the third day after posting Hilary's notable remarks, Moran
posted the above, including the code letters "T s b t o."

	They were a prediction. T=This s=should b=bring t=them o=out.

And it did. Say Moran didn't post the above, would Hilary have gone on
flapping in the breeze all by her lonesome? Who knows. 
	But where are her co-websitesters, McVay and MvCarthy? You
would think they would come to Hilary's rescue. But so far, not yet.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:22 PDT 1996
Article: 35475 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Just ask for Rachelle"
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 14:41:05 GMT
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	Tom Moran had posted an expose by way of a listing of a number
of examples of exaggerations and racist murmurings. One example was an
ad placed in the New York Times by the Jewish National Fund claiming
they had planted 200,000,000 trees in Israel.
	Seeming not to have much dispute with the posting of the other
10 or so examples of racist and ethnocentric murmurings, the usual
Holocaust swarm on alt.rev. focused on the posting of the 200,000,000
trees.
	It all seemed to culminate, thus far, under a post by John
Morris "Moran's fingers and Moran's toes".
	Moran had simply ask for the proof, photographic proof,
instead of the sketch the Jewish National Fund supplied to show it was
a true statement.
	Eventually, Yale Edeiken, a alt.rev. regular blurted out that
he had found photograghic evidence. 
	He directed Moran to the Allentown Penn. library and to ask
for a Rachelle, who had the books on hold. 
	Moran ask Mr. Edeiken to just supply the photos, thus the
titles. Mr.Edeiken only got more agressive and indignant. Moran ask
again "WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS".
	Mr.Edeiken just kept on evading. Moran ask, "WHERE ARE THE
TITLES", and yet nothing civil or relevant from Mr.Edeiken.
	As usual, Mr.Edeiken's brethren swarm jumped in to support and
mimic his evasions, the full exchange still there, dancing around on
"Moran's fingers and Moran's toes".
	For now ...
	
                          Mr. Edeiken: 

 	"No you lying little scumbag.  There is no "endorsement" for
any of your lies.  This one was just such an outrageously easy one to
dispute.  What everyone has said is that you are a cowardly little
bigot who can't support a single one of his Moronic claims.  On the
other hand, when one of your Moronic challenges was accepted you did
not even bother to respond (except with a lie). 
       I take it this is an "endorsement" of those who have pointed
out that you are a liar and an anti-Semite."
                     -------------------

"Which is exactly what you asked me to do.  I went I checked.  They
were there.  They were at the Allentown Public Library.  Go see for
yourself, if you do not beleive me.  I asked a very helpful librarian
to have them held for you. Just ask for Rachelle."
                    --------------------

	"The pictures are waiting for you at the Allentown Public
Library.  It's at 12th and Hamilton and is very hard to miss.  The
pictures were very easy to find.  There are lots of pictures there and
a very kind librarian who will help interpret then for you.  Her name
is Rachelle (and she has read your posts).  
Why don't you just go there and check?"
                       ----------------------

Right where you challenged me to find them.  At the Allentown Public 
Library.  If you do not believe me, go and look for yourself.  It's
right at 12th and Hamilton.  It's very hard to miss.
                       ----------------------

And oddly enough when I found a library that had the photographs 
that L'il Tommy wanted to see he threw a tantrum.
                       ----------------------

	"No you lying sack of shit.  When you asked for a library that
had them, I checked out a library and they were there.  I am sure
others could do the same.  What happened was thatt, even though you
were directed to a place that met you conditions you have resolutely
refused to do so.  That is your problem.  It might be rectified by
long hours on a psychiatrist's couch; it will not be rectified by
lying about what other people have said."
                       ---------------------

	"That is why Rachelle, a very nice lady by the way, is waiting
for you.  She will explain the pictures to you and explain what they
mean.  That way we can all be sure that you now know that any
intelligent person -- in which number you are not included -- can go
to the library and see pictures of trees in Israel." 
                       -----------------------
                    
       "Her name -- given twice -- is Rachelle."
                       ______________________
    
	  Okay, there we have some of Mr.Edeiken's stuff.
 
The phone number for the Hamilton Street Branch (Main) of the
Allentown Public Library is (610) 820-24??.*             

	        BUT DON'T ASK FOR RACHELLE. 
                      She's not there.
                       She never was.
                      She never will be.
                     She's does not exist. 
        
       No one at the Allentown Library never heard of her.
                     
          She's a figment of Mr.Edeiken's fabrication. 




                           ________

* Last two nos. left out so as not to make it too easy to call for
varification, and not disturb the library. Calling information will
show that the investigation did procede at least that far. Perhaps Mr.
Edeiken will come out and fess up and save anyone from having to go
through the trouble of verifying the lies.	

	
                    _________________________


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:23 PDT 1996
Article: 35531 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:59:44 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>  
>>  	Thanks for admitting the "seventh time".
>
>	I note you have yet to deny it.
>
>
>>  
>>  > You did so in the post "Time for a Showdown."  I am willing an able 
>>  >to prove it you Jew hating coward.  Pick up the telephone, dial 
>213-383-6516.  
>>  >Make the arrangements.
>>  
>>  	And here you are with the eigth. What is all this about a
>>  phone number when the article you say it's in is posted right here. 
>>  For the eigth time Mr.Edeiken, where, exactly, are the "KKK" letters.
>
>
>	For the eighth time you illiterate jerk.  You lied.  Yopu described 
>actions taken by the KKK and stated that they were part of a "Jewish 
>conspiracy."  That you did not type the letters "KKK" is irrelevant to the menaing 
>of your words.

	After eight times saying Moran said something about the KKK
being Jewish or something, you say it is "irrelvant". You say Moran
never actually "typed" the letters "KKK"? How would Moran say all that
above, that you say he says, without typing the letters "KKK"?
	How come you put the '"KKK"' in quote marks?

Interesting state of mind. 


>	The telephone number is simple.  It is the Los Angeles office of the 
>American Arbitration Association.  You know the conditions.  You know the 
>telphone number.
>
>	I note that you still have nothing substantive to say about your lies.  
>Apparently your statement "I stand pat."  is still your position.  Apparently you still 
>believe that the KKKK is part of a "Jewish conspiracy."
>
>	By your count that is ten.  And you have yet to deny it.  And, 
>apparently, you still have not read Capital Square v. Pinnette (115 S.Ct. 2440 for 
>those of you who, unlike L'il Tommy actually read the documents that are 
>discussed).
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 07:15:24 PDT 1996
Article: 35543 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: webster def of semitic
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 13:46:29 GMT
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Bud  wrote:

>Here's Webster's Random House dictionary definition of "semitic."  
>Se-mit-ic (suh mit'ik)  n. 
>                  1.  a family of languages, a branch of the 
>                       Afroasiatic family, comprising a number 
>                       of ancient and modern languages of SW 
>                       Asia and Africa, as Akkadian, Aramaic, 
>                       Hebrew, Arabic, and Amharic.
>              adj. 
>                  2.  of or pertaining to the Semitic languages 
>                       or their speakers.
>             [< NL semiticus = semit (a) SEMITE + -icus - IC]
>
>Let he who has an ear, hear...

	Random House College Dictionary

	In addition to any talk about "language";

	"2. of or pertaining to the Semites or their languages, esp.
of or pertaining to the Jews."


	Under "Semitism"
	"1. Semitic characteristics, esp. the ways, ideas, influence,
etc. of the Jewish people."

	Like killing little children, teaching "chutzpah" (The art of
being insulting), conspiring for their personal goals and the racist
connection. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:44 PDT 1996
Article: 35172 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism = amti-Semitism?
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 12:24:19 GMT
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anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote in response to my posting of a
>Martin Luther King speech equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism: 
>>: 
>>: 	Martin Luther King Jr. endorses all Zionist activety,
>>: including the slaughter of children, adult civilians, rousting whole
>>: populations, bombing refugee camps, razing family homes, uprooting
>>: peoples orchards, imprisonment without trial and all else. Is this
>>: what your saying Annie? 
>>
>Poorly constructed straw man, TM.  Even the big bad wolf wouldn't have
>to strain his gonads to blow it down. By the way, did you notice the
>date on that speech?   Your preoccupation with Israel-bashing says more
>than I ever could, so I'll just let your words speak for themselves.

	Actually Annie, you could have left out the first two
sentences. I hate to see a lady wallow.
	Yea, I noticed the date. Maybe you would like to post some
relevance. I see the date as an indictment against those who would use
King's letter since many unaesthetic deeds have happened since then,
to which King may have had a beef. The most that can be said is that
King would seem to appear not to have had a problem with Zionism
before 1968. I myself had no problem with it until around 1976 or so.

	The heading to your article,

"From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," _Saturday
Review_XLVII (Aug.  1967), p. 76.  Reprinted in M.L. King Jr.,
_This I Believe:  Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther
King Jr._ (New York, 1971), pp. 234-235.)"

	It is obvious that this letter got some accomodation in the
two publications. Do I know if this letter wasn't solicited? I don't. 

	Do I have a "preoccupation" with Jews? I have a lot of
preoccupations. If one should formulate an opinion one should have
some knowledge. I had no opinion about Jews at all until 1980 and over
the years it developed.
>-- 
>Annie Alpert
>
>"All would be well,
> All would be heavenly--
> If the damned would only stay damned."--Charles Fort, 1919



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:44 PDT 1996
Article: 35173 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism = amti-Semitism?
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 12:25:19 GMT
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
>: 
>: 
>: 	Martin Luther King Jr. endorses all Zionist activety,
>: including the slaughter of children, adult civilians, rousting whole
>: populations, bombing refugee camps, razing family homes, uprooting
>: peoples orchards, imprisonment without trial and all else. Is this
>: what your saying Annie? 
>
>Idiot.  you still don't know what Zionism is.  What you just said is akin
>to sating that someone who supports democracy supports every action taken
>by democracy, a la "If he supports democracy, you're sayng he supports the
>US burning of villages in Vietnam."
>
>Duh.  Of course this isn't true.  One can support Zionism, the political
>aspiration of Jewish statehood, without supporting everything Israel does.

	I think if Annie posts this King statement, she is trying to
use his credentials as an endorement of Zionism. There is nothing
itemized as to any exclusions from Martin Luther King Jr.s statement. 

>If you wanted, you could try and make an argument that Zionism MUST lead
>to those things.  But if you don't want to look like an idiot, I suggest
>you read a little political science first.

I see the actions of Zionism. I see the words of Zionists. I see
something that assaults my personal aesthetics. I post. You respond.
Your hypothetical argument "that Zionism MUST lead to those things",
is interesting. Perhaps if one should consider the base history of
those who make up Zionism it might seem inevitable. As it is, Zionism
has led to "those things". 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 35182 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 12:56:09 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4mg0ha$gkv@boris.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >tom moran  wrote:
>> 
>> ># Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just
>> ># after the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to
>> ># 2,000,000 were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site.
>> ># The results were next to nothing.
>> 
>> >I guess that's the kind of lie one could expect from someone
>> >like Moran, who has no qualms about posting forged testimony,
>> >and quoting witnesses to the Holocaust as saying things they
>> >never said?
>> 
>> >Numerous amounts of human remains and ashes were discovered
>> >in Treblinka. 
>> 
>> ># Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the
>> ># results being next to nothing. 
>> 
>> >Another outright lie. Cyanide compounds were discovered in
>> >the remians of all the gassing installations. This fact was
>> >posted here, together with the very detailed report written
>> >by the chemists who did the tests. 
>> 
>
>Not to mention that in 1965 the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum
>commissioned Hydrokop to help to determine the location of the
>incineration pits. 303 sites were drilled. Traces of human ashes, bone,
>and hair were found at 42 of the sites. (_Anantomy_, p.179)

	"Traces"?
	Hair found after being burned? After 40 years in the ground?
"Traces" of ash?
	I've seen this report referred to out here before. The reports
on the report are similar, citing only "traces". The way to present
evidence is, to present the whole thing. Where were the probes made?
How deep? At what depths did they find anything. What examinations did
they make of the regolithic sequence as to any disruption? What
quantities of hair, bone and human ash constitutes "traces"? What kind
of tests did they do to determine if the ash was from humans? Why
wouldn't they cut cross sections at any test sites they thought
positive? This would expose layers, like one should expect. 
	This is in the same ilk as the other probe made at Treblinka
in 1947, which carries the wordings "unspecified amount of ash" and
"some large bones".
	

>> Remember Swiger hoisting this petard on Compuserve? :-)
>
>Better yet, remember Tommy's prognostications about menorahs, trees,
>rocks, etc.? (i.e. Anything he was ignorant of)
>
>Hell, Tommy-the-fruitcake has been hoisted on his own petard so many times
>its truly amazing! And the dim-bulb just keeps plodding on like a
>cud-chewing cow! 
>
>I am reminded of the "Black Knight" scene in _Holy Grail_ for some reason.... 
>
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 35184 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:01:57 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>
>>  >
>>  >	When the adversary is you, the word "lie" becomes accurate.  You did, 
>>  >for example,  attribute acts of the KKK (actually the KKKK) to a "Jewish 
>>  >organization."  When you were corrected on teh facts you ran and hid.  In fact, 
>>  >you effectively restated your lie by stating "I stand pat."
>
>>  	This is about the sixth time you've stated the above, with
>>  Moran always coming back and asking you to show exactly where.
>>  Obviously you can't. Obviously your emotionally disturbed.
>
>
>	Another lie.  You have never asked me "to show exactly where" you 
>have taken the path of the weasel and demanded to be shown where you typed 
>the letters "KKK."  As you have been told several times, you did so in your post 
>entitled "Time for the Showdown."  Please compare the text of Capital Square v. 
>Pinette 115 S.Ct. 2440 to your statement that it was an action brought by a 
>"Jewish conspiracy" to allow the display of the Menorah while prohibiting the 
>cross.  Please note as well that when this was pointed out to you, your response 
>was "I stand pat."
>
>	Obviously I can point it out to you.  Obviously if I am disturbed it is 
>because, as a Jew, I do not like people who lie about Jews.  You lie about  Jews.

	Show it.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:47 PDT 1996
Article: 35187 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:25:54 GMT
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	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same
general path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and
cremation, and also the acitivities of the Einsatzgruppens, the
preceding "anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable
treatment to establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding
1939. After all, if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put
to death, they have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena
to have been killed.
       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
(estimated)". In this table he has three verticle columns:

   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"


	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
5,200,000 in just 210 years.
	It seems that Bauer's list has Jewish population expanding at
an incredible rate between 1650 and 1860, where between 1800 and 1825
alone, the "estimated" Jewish population almost doubled from 1,500,000
to 2,730,000 in the 25 year period, all this increase taking place
during a time when the average life expectancy of man was about 50
some years, further stressed by wars, famines and plagues, and the
Jews undergoing "massive progroms".
	One has to wonder how these "estimated" figures for dates from
1650 to 1860 would have been compiled in 1931. Especially since those
dates were times when communications and census capacities were
extremely low. If in fact there is such a book as the one cited as the
source, we would have to view the whole line of recogning offered in
the book to determine if the statistics aren't just founded on wishful
thinking.
	("Argumentum ad ignorantum: An argument purporting to
demonstrate a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of
facts and reasons the falsity or inadequacy of which is not readily
diserned.")
	  
	By the early 20th Century Bauer, using a map from map happy
Gilbert, has the Jewish population up to 8,700,000 in Europe and
11,487,000 world wide.
	Its obvious that Holocaust books give consider effort to
establishing Jewish populations in order to show that there were
enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6,000,000.  Without
such treatment the story would be more stressed than it is on other
fronts.
	As usual, in their blantant tossing around of terms and
numbers, they include something that further throws suspicions on
their claims, and in this case Bauer offers us a map from Gilbert:

	"Some early records of Jewish town life in Europe before
1600":
that has to resort to listing the most obscure events to show that
Jews were even present in Europe. For Cologne 960 , it has "The local
Jews send a letter to Palestine asking for verification of a rumor
that a Messiah had come", not meaning Jesus Christ we can assume. In
Brussel 1310, "A Jewish scribe completes a fine illuminated
manuscript". In Munich 1228, "A Jew appears in court as a witness
during a trial", and 1173 at Wroclawek "Local coins discovered with
Hebrew inscriptions". So it seems it is necessary to pick up on wee
fragments of evidence to even show Jews existed in Europe by 1300 or
so. Given the Jewish penchant to seek out and hold anything Jewish,
this hardly seems like sufficient history to support the 700,000
Jewish population said to have been in existance by 1650.   	
	We might even want to consider the stories about millions of
Jews fleeing into the Soviet Union, which is said to already have had
a sizable Jewish population during WWII, and then ending up at only
about 2,500,000 or so by 1980. No problem here for Bauer's numbers
since he has about a million of them migrating to the U.S. at the end
of the 19th Century which would put the WWII population of Jews in the
U.S.S.R. low enough to accept the millions said to have fled the Nazis
and still be able to arrive at the numbers in recent times.
       Whatever happened to those million or so Russian Jews said to
have migrated to the U.S. at the end of the 19th century we can only
wonder, since if there was a million here by that time we would expect
millions more here and now in 1996, which there aren't to this day.
	Exaggerations, thorough fabrications - lies. Thats this aspect
of the Holocaust story, as with the rest. 	



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:48 PDT 1996
Article: 35188 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:26:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	Holocaust books donate a considerable amount of space to
establishing a Jewish population in Europe to be able to maintain the
6,000,000 Jewish victims claim. This topic is covered to a certain
degree on alt.rev. under "Hebrew Numerology".
	Tallying of the Jewish population takes on the same dynamics
as the evolving numerology of the Holocaust story in general, where
anywhere between 300,000 and 4,000,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz,
10, 11 or 12 million people in all were exterminated by Germany, that
anywhere btween 7, 8 or 9 hundred thousand Jews were in Hungary - etc.
	Even to this day there seems to be a wide variation as to the
existing Jewish population in the world. Figures that pop up here and
there range from 13 million to 16 million to 20 million, take your
pick. 
	Since the Jews accounting of their numbers at this time is so
widely varied, how can we accept their accounts of their population
during and preceding the Holocaust story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:48 PDT 1996
Article: 35189 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:34:33 GMT
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	Quite often the topic of Jewish population before the war pops
up on alt.revisionism. It is important to the Holocaust story to show
there were enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6 million.
Most of the time, those in favor of the story respond to challenges by
citing German estimates on the population of Jews in Europe.
Something like, 'WHAT? What are you talking about? Look, even the
Germans estimated ...'.

	As it turns out these estimates are deeply suspect.

	"In the final solution conference of January 20, 1942, the
Reich Main Security Office offered the following population statistics
for these countries: Findland 2,300; ... Netherlands, 165,000; ...
Romania, 342,000; ... Hungary, 742,000; ... France (occupied) 165,000;
... France (unoccupied), 700,000; The total is 2,475,100. But the sum
was inflated, principally because of the gross over-estimate for
unoccupied France, by about 600,000 people."
                                                       *Raul Hilberg
	
	Lets summarize: The one number was 700,000 and the correction
is 100,000. This figure of the number of Jews in France is put at
70,000 in recent referrences.
	The same list has 700,000 Jews living in Hungary before the
war. Other figures put it at 800,000 and 900,000. Since the Jewish
population of France was ten times what it is alleged to be now, we
have to consider the same ratio applies to the Hungarian 700,000,
which puts a big quink into the allegations that 200,000 to 450,000
were gassed at Auschwitz.
	Well so much for citing German estimates as proof there were
enough Jews in Europe to validify the numerical part of the story.
_________________________



	* We can thank Raul Hilberg in his demonstration of
objectivety and honesty for reporting on this 700,000 only being
100,000. Evidentally there was just too much of one thing or not
enough of another available for world scrutiny to maintain this number
of 700,000. 
	In light of this development, should we just accept this as a
one exception out of the other 15 countries mentioned or would it be
justified to take this a step further and apply this same ratio to
revise the rest, like Hungary, reported to have had 700,000 Jews.
(Pressac now claims 200 to 250 thousand Hungarian Jews were delivered
to Auschwitz instead of 450,000.) Perhaps the 700,000 reported to have
been in Hungary is more like 100,000 also, or even much less.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:49 PDT 1996
Article: 35199 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 14:51:47 GMT
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   For about the seventh time, Mr.Edieken states Moran has said the
KKK is a Jewish organization. This last time thus far, 

>"Another lie.  You have never asked me "to show exactly where" you 
>have taken the path of the weasel and demanded to be shown where you 
>typed the letters "KKK."  As you have been told several times, you
>did so in your post entitled "Time for the Showdown."
5/6
"Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth"
 
5/1
Under the post "Holocaust of Mind"

>	"A very accurate description of your anti-Semitic rants.  But this is not fair.  
>To set a new record for L'il Tommy's lies in one post you must come up with new 
>material, not recycle your own lies.  Admittedly after describing  the KKK as a "Jewish 
>organization" and exulting in a gang of thugs beating up a little girl your efforts would 
>be hard to top.  But why don't you start simply.  You have lied about a mayor of 
>Philadelphia attacking Jewish political groups?  Why don't you make up up another 
>lie and name him?"
>
>	--YFE

	I see you have mentioned three things above as Moran's lies.
Can you show that you are not lying by posting the evidence of Moran's
lies? Can you show that Moran ever even typed the letters "KKK"? Show
your stuff.
                                                     Moran

5/2 under the post "The word '"Anti-Semitic"' [theorem]"
>Yes, but most people consider the source.  In this case the source is 
>someone whose hatred of Jews is so extreme that he claimed that the KKK was a 
>"Jewish organization."
>	--YFE

	Heres how you do it Mr.Edeiken. You post the exact copy where
Moran typed the letters "KKK". Go for it.
                                                    Moran


5/2
And again under "Holocaust of Mind"

> I think you were 
>telling the truth when you made it.  Second I did not say you typed "KKK;"  I stated 
>that you have described the KKK as a "Jewish organization."  You have specifically 
>in the post "Time for a Showdown."

	Heres the way you do it. You post the part where I "have
described the KKK as a '"Jewish organization". You say it's in a
specific post, so you shouldn't have any problem finding it.
                                                       Moran
5/6
Under "Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth"
>When the adversary is you, the word "lie" becomes accurate.  You did, 
>for example,  attribute acts of the KKK (actually the KKKK) to a "Jewish 
>organization."  When you were corrected on teh facts you ran and hid.  In fact, 
>you effectively restated your lie by stating "I stand pat."
>
>	--YFE

	This is about the sixth time you've stated the above, with
Moran always coming back and asking you to show exactly where.
Obviously you can't. Obviously your emotionally disturbed.
                                                     Moran


	The post Mr.Edeiken identifies as containing the "KKK"
statement by Moran. Okay Mr.Edeiken - go for it. Show the "KKK"
statement.

A number of months ago, Moran posted an account about Jewish
attempts to have the cross banned from public display while pushing to
have the menorah excluded from any, seperation of church and state
clause, they used as part of their attack.
	Moran had made referrence to a court case where he stated the
court made a determination that the cross should be banned on the
grounds it was a religious symbol and menorah should be excluded from
this because it was a secular symbol.
	Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
matching the situation.
	He submitted a press release that somewhat clarified the real
nature of the case. The full details of the case are still unknown to
Moran and evidentally to the HDL since they have posted no more
details on the case. From what was revealed, it appears a ruling was
made to exclude the menorah from any consideration when it came time
to determine if the cross was legitimate for display. Evidentally the
appeals court over turned the ruling, not going for the petitioning
party(s)'s argument that the menorah "was beyond religion".
	Moran regrets any pain and suffering he may have caused in his
not getting the details of the case totally straight. My heart goes
out to all those in the HDL who got themselves into fits of dispare,
flopping around on the floor, wrenching their garments etc.
	Anyway, as it turns out, the HDL has been on Moran's heels
ever since. Particularly when Moran posts something that excedes the
HDL's capacity to chutzpah against. They get themselves into a huff
and them resort to diverting over to the menorah situation. Moran has
pointed out that by their focusing on this one little thing shows they
in turn tacitly admit that Moran's other posts are too tough to deal
with and the HDL has to resort to focusing on something they think
they are capable of using to discredit Moran. Something like 'Oh. Look
at that one black grain of sand on the beach. Therefore the beach is
black'. Actually the HDL should thank Moran for his little faux pas,
since they have used it so many times to divert attention away from
and avoiding responses directly to many of Moran's posts.
	For the most part Moran was correct in his referrence to the
court case. There was a procedure to have the cross banned while
excluding the menorah from any clauses used to have the cross banned.
The argument that the menorah is "beyond religion" has a certain smell
to it, like a spoonful of chutzpah.
	In actuality there was considerable events that preceded this
court case and Moran gave a run down on it in his initial post on the
topic. Evidentally the HDL doesn't have any gripes with the rest of
the accounting, which was 90% of the story, since they keep focusing
on the court case exclusively.

	Since Moran plans on inserting this in the future to any
subsequent resurrections of the matter by the HDL, as has happened
perhaps thirty times over the last couple of months, Moran is going to
include a brief rundown on all the events he can recall about the
nationwide attempt by the Jews to have the cross banned while pressing
to have their menorah excluded from any consideration in the same.  
	
	It all started around one Christmas in Beverly Hills. A cross
was erected and displayed in a park that is right adjacent to Century
City along Santa Monica Boulevard. Jewish forces went into the attack
mode and challenged its presence. The report was made in the
L.A.Times. The next year the same thing came up and this time the Jews
in Beverly Hills defended the menorah, which was displayed in the same
park, as being a "secular symbol" and should not come under the same
reasoning used to ban the cross in that it was a religious symbol.
	Eventually, the word got around the Jewish community and the
attacks on the cross rose up in other cities across the country. Moran
being in the Philadelphia area one Christmas came across an article
about one of the attacks were the mayor of the town stated they
weren't going to allow the Jews to use the display of religious
symbols "for political reasons".  
	Moran had also in the last year or two recieved an article
>from  an associate in Florida about a shopping center which had a
policy of not allowing any religious symbols at all to be displayed,
but the Jews took offense that the menorah was included in this ban.
Utilizing their standard form of harrasement, they bombarded the
management with letters and phone calls and demonstrated to have the
menorah excluded from this ban on the grounds it is a "secular
symbol".
	Of course Moran's ability to amass all the events of Jews
conspiring to have the cross benned while having their own religious
symbol excluded is limited, but there must be many more. There is one
major Christian organization that has a wide collection of Jewish
attacks on their particular denomination and on the Christian
community in general, but this can not be revealed at this time
without their permission.
	For the Jews to assert the menorah is "secular" is putting the
spoon of chutzpah to your mouths, and Moran will leave out, at this
time, the overwhelming amount of evidence that can be presented to
show the use of the "secular" word is an insult, in anticipation the
HDL will come out and try to put the spoon of chutzpah to our mouths.
	Ah yes, if not "secular", then "beyond religion".  	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:50 PDT 1996
Article: 35395 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 13:58:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  
>>     For about the seventh time, Mr.Edieken states Moran has said the
>>  KKK is a Jewish organization. This last time thus far, 
>>  
>>>>>
>	I have said so because you described the actions taken by the KKK and 
>labeled them as actions of a "Jewish organziation" in furtherance of of a "Jewish 
>conspiracy." 

	Thanks for admitting the "seventh time".

> You did so in the post "Time for a Showdown."  I am willing an able 
>to prove it you Jew hating coward.  Pick up the telephone, dial 213-383-6516.  
>Make the arrangements.

	And here you are with the eigth. What is all this about a
phone number when the article you say it's in is posted right here. 
For the eigth time Mr.Edeiken, where, exactly, are the "KKK" letters.
>
>	Either that or retract your lies which, I note, you insist on repeating yet 
>again.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 35396 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 14:04:02 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	There has been a follow up to this article on the Allies
dumping of the massive amounts of chemical arms into the sea. Seems
the containers are nearing the time that they will burst open to the
influneces of the sea and will unleash the vast quantities of lethal
substances and the sea will begin to die completely.
	The legacy.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 35397 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is "Jew baiting"?
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 14:06:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35398 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: #Elie Wiesel Says Hate Still Prowls !
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 14:16:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:369281 alt.politics.libertarian:161740 alt.politics.democrats.d:73811 alt.politics.usa.republican:192516 alt.politics.usa.congress:35898 alt.politics.reform:66540 alt.activism:44632 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:302111 soc.culture.jewish:48445 alt.revisionism:35398


	Elie Wiesel, speaking at the Steven Wise Center in L.A. about
eight years ago;
	"I can't say anything bad about another Jew."


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:53 PDT 1996
Article: 35454 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Assault on Swiss accelerated, now 7Bil
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 15:05:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	Actually this whole thing started a couple of years ago. The
first report in the news mentioned the billions.
	They, the Jews, then de-escalated the amounts in order to get
into the books and now that they are there they reup it to the
billions. 
	It will be revealing to see what kind of chutzpah recogning
they will use to build a few million into the billions. Already they
are claiming extraordinary interest rates. Perhaps they will dream up
some kind of 'special penalties' that should be levied against the
Swiss people.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:54 PDT 1996
Article: 35531 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 00:59:44 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>  
>>  	Thanks for admitting the "seventh time".
>
>	I note you have yet to deny it.
>
>
>>  
>>  > You did so in the post "Time for a Showdown."  I am willing an able 
>>  >to prove it you Jew hating coward.  Pick up the telephone, dial 
>213-383-6516.  
>>  >Make the arrangements.
>>  
>>  	And here you are with the eigth. What is all this about a
>>  phone number when the article you say it's in is posted right here. 
>>  For the eigth time Mr.Edeiken, where, exactly, are the "KKK" letters.
>
>
>	For the eighth time you illiterate jerk.  You lied.  Yopu described 
>actions taken by the KKK and stated that they were part of a "Jewish 
>conspiracy."  That you did not type the letters "KKK" is irrelevant to the menaing 
>of your words.

	After eight times saying Moran said something about the KKK
being Jewish or something, you say it is "irrelvant". You say Moran
never actually "typed" the letters "KKK"? How would Moran say all that
above, that you say he says, without typing the letters "KKK"?
	How come you put the '"KKK"' in quote marks?

Interesting state of mind. 


>	The telephone number is simple.  It is the Los Angeles office of the 
>American Arbitration Association.  You know the conditions.  You know the 
>telphone number.
>
>	I note that you still have nothing substantive to say about your lies.  
>Apparently your statement "I stand pat."  is still your position.  Apparently you still 
>believe that the KKKK is part of a "Jewish conspiracy."
>
>	By your count that is ten.  And you have yet to deny it.  And, 
>apparently, you still have not read Capital Square v. Pinnette (115 S.Ct. 2440 for 
>those of you who, unlike L'il Tommy actually read the documents that are 
>discussed).
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:55 PDT 1996
Article: 35543 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: webster def of semitic
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 13:46:29 GMT
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Bud  wrote:

>Here's Webster's Random House dictionary definition of "semitic."  
>Se-mit-ic (suh mit'ik)  n. 
>                  1.  a family of languages, a branch of the 
>                       Afroasiatic family, comprising a number 
>                       of ancient and modern languages of SW 
>                       Asia and Africa, as Akkadian, Aramaic, 
>                       Hebrew, Arabic, and Amharic.
>              adj. 
>                  2.  of or pertaining to the Semitic languages 
>                       or their speakers.
>             [< NL semiticus = semit (a) SEMITE + -icus - IC]
>
>Let he who has an ear, hear...

	Random House College Dictionary

	In addition to any talk about "language";

	"2. of or pertaining to the Semites or their languages, esp.
of or pertaining to the Jews."


	Under "Semitism"
	"1. Semitic characteristics, esp. the ways, ideas, influence,
etc. of the Jewish people."

	Like killing little children, teaching "chutzpah" (The art of
being insulting), conspiring for their personal goals and the racist
connection. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:56 PDT 1996
Article: 35637 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 01:05:54 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

> From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
>[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
>me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
>had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
>openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
>also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
>As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
>trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
>started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
>them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
>as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
>was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
>fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
>higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.
>
>   * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz

	Oh, yea. This is the guy from the registrars office. The
bookkeeper. Grabner went over to get him to pour in the pellets
because one of the regular guys didn't show up.
	You wouldn't have any testimony from this regular would you?
You think he would give something more than a one time accounting,
like all the rest of the eyewitnesses. Don't you find it peculiar you
don't have any detailed accounts, professor?

>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 35646 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 13:44:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 42
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References: <3190b679.6485544@news.pacificnet.net>  <319143bf.1283926@news.pacificnet.net> <8MAY199621540142@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <319143bf.1283926@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>>> From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
>>>[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>>>Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>    [testimony deleted]
>
>> 
>>	Oh, yea. This is the guy from the registrars office. The
>>bookkeeper. Grabner went over to get him to pour in the pellets
>>because one of the regular guys didn't show up.
>>	You wouldn't have any testimony from this regular would you?
>>You think he would give something more than a one time accounting,
>>like all the rest of the eyewitnesses. Don't you find it peculiar you
>>don't have any detailed accounts, professor?
>
>    Tommy, haven't you noticed that Dr. Keren posts about a dozen
>    testimonies a week and has been doing so for several years.  I would
>    guess he has posted close to a thousand testimonies by now (some are
>    likely repeats.)
>
>    If this one testimony doesn't suit you, just wait around a day or two
>    and there will be plenty more.
>
>    Oh, and I've noticed, you have never disproved the contents of any of
>    them.  You just go into your antisemitic whine for awhile.

	Really? Why don't you go over and counter my "Testimonial
Fiction". Lets see what you can do with the comments under these here.
Try to stick to the points. Take your hands out of your pockets. Let
them flail around. 

>    By the way, howz the grandkids?  Have they started Habrew School yet?
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35653 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Proud German Babies
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 13:53:51 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>Subject: Evil Little German Babies
>From: Koenraad Vogel <103133.2361@CompuServe.COM>
>Date: 7 May 1996 21:25:56 GMT
>Message-ID: <4mof55$naj$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com>
>
>
> Koenraad Vogel <103133.2361@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>
>
>>First of all, how is a statement made by one Jew automatically an attack
>on
>>the German people by "the Jews"??  Are we back on that worn-out
>>"Jewish/Zionist conspiracy" nonsense??? [...]  No,
>>the catalyst for revisionism in Germany (and elsewhere) is that same,
>>old-fashioned anti-Semitism which caused the Holocaust to begin with, not
>any
>>Jew's understandable unwillingness to forget the tragedy of millions
>dead.
>
>While I think it is true that people who harp on Holocaust revisionism are
>usually anti-semitic, there are usually clues that give the issue away. 
>For example, someone who brings up Holocaust revisionism and then leads
>the discussion into a criticism of Israel, US support for Israel, the
>price of gasoline, the Trilateral Commission, or some other mysterious,
>vague entity that controls our lives is -- I think -- anti-semitic, and as
>they go on they will eventually start making explicit collective judgments
>(usually negative) about Jews.

	On the over all I find your posts to be generally smooth and
easy going and you don't seem to back down. Of course we all have our
different perspectives for a subject.
	As far as citing Israel, U.S. support of Israel or anything
else Israel under alt.revisionism/Holocaust there is a distinct
connection. The state of Israel was founded on the Holocaust story.
They have extracted billions of dollars from nations on the grounds of
a Holocaust. They have accused many of complicity in the Holocaust.
States and religions. They use the Holocaust to justify their actions
in Israel. During the Childrens War (Intifada) quite often the
Holocust word would pop up in the many letters, articles and columns
written on the events.
	The Holocaust has resulted in a serious compromise of our
freedom of speech and press. It threatens freedoms people have died
for in history. 
	There are in fact true "anti-Semites" involved in revisionism.
As already posted out here, I would consider anyone who would paint
Swastikas on Jews grave stones, synagogues or whatever, a true act of
"anti-Semitism". Attacking someone just because their Jewish would be
another example of "anti-Semitism".
	I posed out here at one time, "Can a true statement be
"anti-Semitic"?  From this it was proposed if the statement is deemed
"anti-Semitic" then this would infer the statement is a negative
statement. From here we would have to determine if the statement was
true or not. From this we could say, what is wrong with saying a true
statement? 
	Now if we made a true statement and then used it to incite
others to violence, then we might say the true words are used to
incite "anti-Semitic" acts. And then it would have to be shown that
the words were of such a nature that they incited people to
"anti-Semitic" deeds. But we should require that any statements
actually have words of incitement, like 'Get em', or 'Go down and
paint Swastikas on grave stones'.
	Now we can't make a statement against "anti-Semitic" and
overlook anything else could we? This would be being a hypocrit. Right
out here on alt.revisionism there are parties that will make wild
racist claims, such as if it wasn't for Jewish blood there wouldn't be
any books of worth in the libraries, or that 80% the artisians in the
U.S. would be Jewish if they weren't persecuted. And if one says it,
others come in say hail, hail.
	Look right in the Holocaust books and read where it is implied
that the Jews were the only ones who had any brains in Hungry, Poland
and White Russia.
	Jews are the main make up of those who are so eager to
perpetuate the Holocaust to the forefront of all awareness, beyond all
else. Their websites are loaded with remarks against "hate" and
"neo-Nazism", while at the same time committing acts of hate.
	The tool for snuffing freedom of speech is the term
"anti-Semitism". Of the number of definitions of "Semite" we can find
in the dictionary, we can find that it applies to Arabs. Now if you
really want to witness the most extensive record of anti-Semitism,
considering that application, just review the many letters, articles,
columns and ads that have appeared in our newpapers urging America to
hate Israel's enemies.  At the same time we are bombarded through the
same formats with how superior, benevolent and persecuted they are.
	Its already an unwritten law that there is to be no criticism
in the U.S. about Israel, the child of the Holocaust, and now they are
working to make it against the law to question history, their version
of history. Any other history, you can say all you want, but if you
question their version, thats a different thing. Their version is
centered around the evils of others history. They say and press evil
accusations against the history of others and to criticize their
history or their historical accountings about others history is an act
of hate. 
	It was the Holocaust story that got them to their position
today. The game is high stakes Holocaust. They have two deuces and the
truth has the Royal Flush. This is why they are so avid on suppressing
freedom of speech. They know they have two deuces.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 35660 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 14:51:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>  Alt.conspiracy and alt.revisionism frequenter, the Jewish-American
>Robert Alpert, keeps sending me (what I consider to be harrassing and
>abusive) email because of my online criticisms of Israel yet, when I
>respond to his email, I receive "an automated message" informing me --
>rather nastily, I must say -- that, because I'm on his
>persona-non-grata list, he won't even know I responded to his email,
>much less read what I wrote in reply to HIS email to me. (I myself have
>NEVER initiated any email to him, btw.)
>  Can anyone suggest how I might deter him from continuing what I
>consider to be immature behavior -- not to mention an abuse of the
>Internet?

	Yes. Ignore him. He's insane.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May  9 21:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 35663 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 13:39:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Hofmann, about his days at Auschwitz
>[Quoted from "Auschwitz: A Report on the Proceedings Against Robert 
>Karl Ludwig Mulka and Others Before the Court at Frankfurt", By Bernd 
>Naumann, 1966, published by Frederick A. Praeger, NY, p. 50-1]
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>The Jews were asked to line up. It was my job to preserve calm and
>order. The selection was carried out by doctors. The instructions
>were issued by the commandants or by Grabner. Sometimes entire
>transports were gassed. At times many able-bodied workers were
>selected, at other times fewer. The percentage was specified in
>advance. It was determined by the need for workers.
>
>-Danny Keren.

	Professor, there has to be more. Its obvious these testimonies
are incomplete. Just comparing them to other real trials would show
that they are a group unto themselves. We could look to the OJ Simpson
trial to see a clear distinction. We can recognize that one was
carried to a certain extreme, but it shows to what length the inquiry
takes with real trials. Didn't this person or any other person have a
defense counsel? I have yet see any of the professors posts of
testimony including any defense questions, and nary any requests for
details from prosecutors or the presiding judge.
	You see professor, that the more there is the more
discrepancies there are. Like the "Leleko Interogation" which was
posted by McVay, critiqued into oblivion and never challenged by
either you or McVay. Why is that?
	No wonder Franciszek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz Museum
comes right out and says it, that the testimonies and the trials are
full of discrepancies and errors, so much so that they had to disgard
the whole thing in favor of arriving at the new Auschwitz numbers.

>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:33 PDT 1996
Article: 35870 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Pressac, yes?  Pressac, no?  It all depends?
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 15:08:14 GMT
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	I imagine that a number of people out here have seen the name
of Pressac mustered up now and then as an Holocaust authority, and
even with a certain regularity as of recently.  As it turns out,
Nizkor has a bio on him and his work under;  Web
Crawler(say)>Nizkor>Nizkor Home Page>Shofar FTP
Archives>pub>camps>Auschwitz>Pressac. I believe most people will be
able to find Pressac by following this simple path, but for all those
who have expressed the need for URLs to get around Nizkor, including
the webmaster and co-webmasters of Nizkor itself, they will just have
to remain in the dark.
	It is interesting that there is a lot of bewailing the
validity of the Holocaust from argumenters by citing their sources
are, among other terms used, "accredited historians" and "PhDs" and
berate others sources as not being put forth by the same, when it
turns out that Pressac is a - pharmacist.

            A critique of Nizkors bio on the life and works of
                          Jean-Claude Pressac.

	"Jean-Claude Pressac is known as a reliable, unassuming
pharmacist ..." in his small village, begins the Nizkor bio.
	He has been "revealed as a respected, if not amateur,
historian on the Holocaust", Nizkor continues, followed by, "The
unusual story of how Pressac became an expert on the Nazi wartime
slaughter of European Jewry...". So, only two paragraphs into the file
we have Pressac posed as an amateur expert.
	After a little treatment on revisionists, the first of a
number of times, Nizkor copy continues "Pressac has never had any
professional training as an historian" soon followed by "Pressac's
scientific background, particuarly in chemistry, stood him in good
stead ..." to pursue the Holocaust.
	Nizkor then tells us how Pressac is a reformed revisionist and
former student of Faurisson but then hooked up with Serge Klarsfeld,
who's wife ended up publishing Pressac's first book "Auschwitz:
Techniques and Operation of the Gas Chambers". The page cites
Faurisson's book 
"Holocaust? Prove it Occured", to lead into their assertion that most
of the evidence for the Holocaust was destroyed by the SS. They say as
to Faurisson's title "That wasn't easy for several reasons" and
continue on to say, evidence "had been systematically concealed" by
Hitler and Himmler. The copy says the orders were "Always highly
discreit", either "oral or written", and any records were "immediatley
burned, historians suspect". They also cite Pressac's assertion that
"crematoria and other physical evidence ..." was destroyed by
retreating SS. How the historians would know abot all this "highly
discriet" "oral" conference Nizkor does not relate.
	Not until after a decade of research "was Pressac able to show
fresh documentary evidence" of the facilities at Auschwitz, "almost
entirely destroyed by the SS in Jan. 1945".  His break through came,
Nizkor says, "with international fame, two weeks ago with the
publication of his new book '"The Crematoria of Auschwitz"'. The
information for Pressac's new book was "largely based on new
information garnered from files taken by the Soviet Army" and were
made available to Pressac 3 years ago by the KGB, "which kept them
secret for 45 years".  Nizkor, who includes statements on other parts
of it's website about the Auschwitz numbers being fabrications of the
Poles and Soviets, states here that Pressac relies "repeatedly" on
these files with which he includes "supporting photos, charts and
notes".  Some of these photos we might assume, being those fuzzy half
tone photos discussed out here recently on alt.rev. 
	Utilizing mighty wording to put their bio across, Nizkor says
Pressac "cooly" recounts "with mind boggling technical detail" how the
SS built the facilities for mass murder at Auschwitz "and by
inference, in other camps". This might infer in itself that Holocaust
faction admits to not having any evidence even remotely as to
facilities of mass murder at other camps, since it took Pressac ten
years to uncover whatever he says he gets from the Soviet files on
Auschwitz. 
        Pressac's study on German "construction firms" and his other
work is "not easily refutable", Nizkor claims. The site states
Pressac's work "ends the dispute among '"professioal historians
sympathetic"' on how the death camps were able to kill millions.
	Nizkor quotes Klarsfeld's wife as saying Pressac's work
"stands as the most complete referrence book on the question", but
soon quotes Hilberg as saying Pressac is "not really a historian
..(Nizkor's dots) and some of his interpretations could turn out to
be erroneous".  As it turns out, Pressac's estimate for the number of
Jews said to have been put to death is 630,000 and Hilberg's is
somewhere around a million.
	Nizkor, for some reason, winds up giving us a three paragraph
account of how Pressac doesn't know enough about Jews or Judaism.
Where this all fits in with the rest, or with evidence, they do not
say. Maybe its if Pressac did know a little more about Jews and
Judaism his numbers would be a little higher. 
	I Tom Moran readily admit I have subjectively highlighted
certain elements of this Nizkor treatment to show it's inconsistencies
and failures as I see it, but I have included the path for anyone to
view the text in it's original form as presented by Nizkor, lest of
course, excluding those who have expressed themselves as not being
able to find their way around by the facilitating system common to
most websites and utilized by Nizkor itself.  Warning; Do not try to
print Nizkor files. You must have "old style" equipment, as specified
on Nizkor's Home Page, to print out their FTP files.
	I would recommend amateur "scholars" who might not have access
to Pressac's limited edition of books to view the Nizkor treatment on
Pressac in it's entirety and see if its credible enough to pursue a
copy of his book.
	One could very well find it worthless if they go by the many
assertions often expressed on this newsgroup that only "accredited
historians" and "PhDs" are capable of historical review.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:34 PDT 1996
Article: 35877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A condo for Finsten
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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References: <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net> <4lmlfn$igg@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4louar$pp0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4lp2le$sip@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4lr7c5$987@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31821ab4.895826@news.pacificnet.net> <4mr0f7$s35@hackberry.zilker.net> <3191f1fa.848096@news.pacificnet.net> <4mtdg2$q20@hackberry.zilker.net>
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>In article <4lp2le$sip@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, 
>>>>>rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>I remember my sister's cat.
>>>>>
>>>>>>My sincere condolences.
>>>>>
>>>>>Not only do I remember my sister's cat, but my rigii is flatly
>>>>>paupacitic at the explicits, because neither is mentioned in
>>>>>the Wannasee Protocols, nor can reference to its be found on
>>>>>the Mall or the Khmer Rouge Period Cambodian Embassy either
>>>>>or.
>>>>>
>>>>>My sister did not have a cat.
>>>>>I did not have a sister.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thank you for understooding.
>>>>McVay, where is your admission or denial to the charfges youtampered
>>>>with the copy from the Polish report? You have time to be childishly
>>>>witty over here, whats up?
>>>
>>>We are waiting for you to justify your charges. I've seen nothing but
>>>thin air so far. How about posting the version or paragraphs you think
>>>is unchanged next to the changed version or paragraphs. I'm ying to
>>>see what you are charging.
>>>
>>They are identified within the critique. You go find them.
>
>You lay charges with no proof Moran. What an idiot.
>
>I think that is clear to EVERYONE here.


	What significance does capitalizing "EVERYONE" have?
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:35 PDT 1996
Article: 35878 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:26:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 32
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:48381 alt.revisionism:35878

schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

>In article <4mp9vo$lrj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>
>>   Alt.conspiracy and alt.revisionism frequenter, the Jewish-American
>> Robert Alpert, keeps sending me (what I consider to be harrassing and
>> abusive) email because of my online criticisms of Israel yet, when I
>> respond to his email, I receive "an automated message" informing me --
>> rather nastily, I must say -- that, because I'm on his
>> persona-non-grata list, he won't even know I responded to his email,
>> much less read what I wrote in reply to HIS email to me. (I myself have
>> NEVER initiated any email to him, btw.)
>>   Can anyone suggest how I might deter him from continuing what I
>> consider to be immature behavior -- not to mention an abuse of the
>> Internet?
>>    
> 
>That's an easy one!
> 
>Stop posting defamatory comments about Israel!
> 
>Duh!
> 
>Sara

	Sara, are the "defamatory comments about Israel" true or
false? Don't you think it would be more proper for the person to
respond directly to any explicit material in lieu of "harrasement"? Or
do have some special exclusion principle that doesn't require direct
response?



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:35 PDT 1996
Article: 35879 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:26:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 14
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	The world wide Jewish population today has been put at 13, 16
or 20 million, take your pick. 
	For the following ciphering lets give the doctor and any
defenders some accomodation to keep the finale from being any more
absurd than if we used any of the other numbers.
	Lets say the figure was 10,000,000.
	Lets just take 100,000 of this 10 million figure, or 1%. Lets
say each one had 120 relatives lost in the Holocaust, as the doctor
claims he had. This would come out to 12,000,000. One percent of 10
million, times 120 relatives = yup, 12,000,000. 
 	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35885 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revise This, Revise That!  Enough Already!
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 18:53:31 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>This is an open letter to the Huber man (homo huber) who e-mail bombed my
>newsgroup file with a bunch of stupid posts in the middle of the night.
>
>Cycling through these files I was impressed with their excitability, and
>their general lack of even interesting content.  Let's face it, this board
>is a SINK in which a lot of subterranean venom is spilled out as therapy. 
>No one here is going to change their minds about the facts, unless they
>change their attitudes about themselves and the people they are arguing
>against.  But that ain't gonna happen!
>
>Therefore, let's at least try to be entertaining and coherent, Huber!  And
>your stupid statements which you are obviously fixed on are not worth your
>time to write or my time to delete.  For example:
>
>1)  OK, Congress passed a resolution.  What the resolution means is:
>"Can't we all just get along?"  How does that correlate with Revisionism? 
>Because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU who give skepticism a bad name with tireless
>nasty attacks about Jews and Israel.

	No the resolution means they made an announcement in support
of a falsehood. They should have made a resolution Supporting the
Freedom of Speech, including the right to discuss the Holocaust
without being subjected to such body announcements they did against
revisionism.


>2)  Elie Wiesel is not my favorite author, and I find many of his insights
>trite.  But I also recognize that in the last 10 years since he won the
>Nobel he has tried to become a kind of Moral Conscience, and I respect
>that, and I respect what he has said about the suffering in the former
>Yugoslavia.  Yes, at one time he said some pretty harsh things about
>Germany.  I would bet that he would soften them if not eliminate them if
>he were confronted with them again.  People change.

	You might ask yourself if you ever heard Elie Wiesel speak out
against any Jewish atrocities in Mideast. He's a evil little person.
The Nobel prize is quite often awarded on political considerations,
and you shouldn't think that this awarding body isn't open to
lobbying.	
	Someone must have had a notion about the possiblities, having
written a book years ago called the "The Prize" about intrigues behind
Nobel Awards.
	You may come to realize that given out awards can be a way of
building loyalty. The Jewish community is rift with it.


>3)  Blue smoke = Hungarians, Yellow smoke = Poles.  This kind of detail
>confirms my suspicions that all embarrassing posts that are inherently
>ridiculous derive from a massive revisionist cache of stupid statements
>about the Holocaust which they are always prepared to draw on as a
>diversionary tactic.  My advice: get some better writers.
>
> 



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:36 PDT 1996
Article: 35887 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:51:46 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  
>>  	He is cited as an orthodix Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
>>  Holocaust. 
>>  
>>  	Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
>>  It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
>>  at it.
>
>	Sorry, L'il Tommy.  Not hard at all.  The family tree for one side of my 
>family lists 136 known victims of the Holocaust.  The sad truth is that that is what 
>was done by the nazis you admire so much.  They murdered people.  They wiped 
>out families.  They didn't care whether they were men or women or children.  They 
>murdered them all.  And you lmake excuses for them.

	Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:37 PDT 1996
Article: 35891 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:04:24 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	The world wide Jewish population today has been put at 13, 16
>or 20 million, take your pick. 
>	For the following ciphering lets give the doctor and any
>defenders some accomodation to keep the finale from being any more
>absurd than if we used any of the other numbers.
>	Lets say the figure was 10,000,000.
>	Lets just take 100,000 of this 10 million figure, or 1%. Lets
>say each one had 120 relatives lost in the Holocaust, as the doctor
>claims he had. This would come out to 12,000,000. One percent of 10
>million, times 120 relatives = yup, 12,000,000. 
> 	

	Mr.Edeiken tells the group he lost 136 relatives in the
Holocaust.
	Going by the above ciphering this would come out to
13,600,000. Just considering 1%. Imagine.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:38 PDT 1996
Article: 35898 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lessons of the Holocaust (The Qana Massacre)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:12:43 GMT
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>While these events are clearly tragic, and while I believe that the
>government of Israel has some questions to answer, I fail to see what
>this massacre has to do with the historicity of the holocaust.  Why was
>it posted in alt.revisionism?  

	Israel was founded on the Holocaust story. All resultant
factors committed by Israel ensue from this fact.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"If it works, take it apart and find out why."  - unknown



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:38 PDT 1996
Article: 35900 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS I - XII
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:16:53 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


XIII.
	According to testimony posted by Professor Keren, the Germans
designed the cans that held Zyklon B in such a way that they had to
opened with a hammer and chisel.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:39 PDT 1996
Article: 35901 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:19:50 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>[About Zyklon-B pellets]
>
># You forget that one of your holohuggers proved the could 
># not have been blue because HCN only forms that color with iron.
>
>Since you are in the habit of misquoting people, it would be
>better if you give the exact citation. Frankly, I don't believe
>one word you write. So post the excerpt you refer to.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.


	So what about it professor, was Zyklon B blue or not?
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:40 PDT 1996
Article: 35903 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: #Elie Wiesel Says Hate Still Prowls !
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:25:22 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>> 
>> >Chuck Ferree wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >tom moran wrote:
>
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>What's your point, Moran? You have something to say...say it, and quit 
>piggy-backing on other peoples creative writing. I heard Elie Wiesel 
>speak in person last evening in my home town. He never mentioned 
>hatred one time in two hours of talking and answering questions. This 
>man has done more, seen more, contributed more, helped more people, 
>taught more, loved more, been loved more, cares more, and will 
>continue to do good for all mankind, more than all the neo-nazis, 
>Holocaust deniers, and idiots who put their hatred and lies right here 
>on this site. I don't know what your problem is, fella, but what ever 
>it is, God"s gonna get ya. 

	God is responsible for all things. God gets everybody.

>> >>
>> >>         Elie Wiesel, speaking at the Steven Wise Center in L.A. about
>> >> eight years ago;
>> >>         "I can't say anything bad about another Jew."
>> >
>> >Why should he! There are plenty of antiSemites out there bad mouthing
>> >Jews every day. Just look at the amount of hatred aimed at Jewish
>> >people right here on this newsgroup. The Jews have plenty to hate
>> >about. Name one thing that gives ayrians justification to hate an
>> >entire group of people they don't know, don't want to know and tried
>> >to exterminate. I know plenty of Jews, that don't hate anyone. I know
>> >plenty of so-called Christians, and read many of them right here that
>> >express their sick hatred every day, many say it over and over ala
>> >Giwer, like a stuck record.
>> >Chuck
>> 
>>         Ah yes, justifiable hate; "The Jews have plenty to hate
>> about."
>
>You think they don't? Over 2,000 years of persecution for no reason. 
>People all over the world, (mostly ignorant people) spreading the 
>balony that Jews rule the media, banks, have all the good jobs, and 
>whole bunch of other balony. As a people Jews don't hate anybody. If I 
>were a Jew, and seen what I've seen, and done what I've done, I'd be 
>one of the meanest bastids on the face of the earth. Guys like you, 
>unless I've got the wrong guy, give me a royal pain in the ass. I'd 
>ask, what the hell have you ever done for the benefit of humanity? 
>What have you ever done for anyone beside yourself? 
>Chuck



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:41 PDT 1996
Article: 35923 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where are the Indians
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:55:37 GMT
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	There is no doubt the Jews are constantly crying about any
"persecution" they have been subjected to. The Holocaust is the apex
of examples. There is weekly programming on TV on the subject, there
is weekly comment in major newspapers, and there are special programs
instilled on our education systems. There are a myriad of museums and
oraginizations focused on the Holocaust. The Holocaust seems to be the
only thing that happened in history. Yellow school buses line up
outside of the Holocaust Ministry of Love museums and the kids are
guided through the tales of the myth on a daily basis.
	But where are the American Indians? Certainly, far more
documented than any Holocaust, is the total uprooting, killing,
de-populating and displacement of the proud Indian. The real native 
American. How come they aren't out there wailing and crying? Pride. No
one likes a sniveler and the ones with true grace recognize the
practice as lacking in grace, style and aesthetics.
	Instead we have this Holocaust story, pelted at America,
saturating the system, compromising the systems basic rights. Now that
the trend of Hollywood has phased away from its huge output of evil
American Indians, Americans are starting to address the history of the
American Indian in a revisionist way. Revisionist views contrary to
Hollywood's versions. 
	Yet here we have this Holocaust. Used to extract billions from
nations, lashing out at everyone as the evil doer, compromising our
system. Every dollar that goes to the little racist state of Israel is
that much that won't go to the welfare of the American Indian. While
the Jews get all they want, the Indian is still in dire straights by
living standards. The Jew in the little racist state of Israel lives
far better than the average American Indian.
	The Jew will try something like saying their Holocaust was far
more extreme than what happened to the American Indian. They will tell
us they are pressing it so much because they want the world to know
about tyranny and racism.
	The crying motto of the Holocaust is "Never again". To "we
Jews" that is.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:41 PDT 1996
Article: 35924 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:02:43 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>In article <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same
>>>>general path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and
>>>>cremation, and also the acitivities of the Einsatzgruppens, the
>>>>preceding "anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable
>>>>treatment to establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding
>>>>1939. After all, if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put
>>>>to death, they have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena
>>>>to have been killed.
>>>>       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
>>>>they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
>>>>Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
>>>>span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
>>>>a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
>>>>(estimated)". In this table he has three verticle columns:
>>> 
>>>>   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
>>>>   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
>>>>   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
>>>>   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
>>>>   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
>>>>   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
>>>>   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
>>>>   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
>>>>   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
>>>>"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"
>>> 
>>>>	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
>>>>European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
>>>>5,200,000 in just 210 years.
>>> 
>>>	Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>>>total European population over the same period of time.
>
>>    Great!  Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
>>    lack of knowledge in.  There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
>>    a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
>>    population as a whole.  Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
>>    and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.
>
>>    I don't know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
>>    that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
>>    come up with.
>
>	Which of your explanations would you like to suggest it true and
>support?  Why would you not check the population of Europe in the
>same time frame before you see whether you have to explain it as
>being greater or less than these numbers?

	Giwer, you have a legitimate consideration here. We have to
assume the Jewish population was at a certain low ratio then as it is
now. Maybe it was something like 2% or less. In that case we would
have to multiply the Jewish figures presented by that ratio. Whoa.
	So we have the Jewish 2% - lets make it 5%, giving them some
accomodation. So the 5% increased 7 1/2 times in the 210 years.
Leaving 95%. For every 5%, and in line with the Jewish increase of
4,500,000 for their 5%, we have the 4,500,000, times 19 = 85,000,000.
	Without the accomodation, and going by a 2% ratio, the figure
would be 220,000,000. 
	Wow.
>alt.revisionism
>
>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>
>   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:42 PDT 1996
Article: 35925 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:08:37 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>>
>    Great!  Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
>    lack of knowledge in.  There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
>    a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
>    population as a whole.  Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
>    and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.
>
>    I don't know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
>    that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
>    come up with.

	I agree. You certainly would have to resort to claiming some
wild extremes in order to validate your above and down play the
absurdity the numbers suggest.
	Even if you said Jews lives twice as long, had twice as many
children, emigrated twice as much as the goyim population the numbers
would still be absurd.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 12:35:43 PDT 1996
Article: 35926 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:27:02 GMT
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>: 
>: >
>: >Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>: >Krema I in Auschwitz
>: >[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>: >-------------------------------------------------------------
>: > ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>: >Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>: >hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>: >inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>: >to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>: >the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>: >opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>: >were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>: >of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>: >started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>: >death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
>: >
>: >-Danny Keren.
>: 
>: 	Now this testimony has some problems. You say, by posting this
>: "testimony" as true, that they needed a chisel and a hammer to get the
>: lids off of Zyklon B cans? You don't know if there is any other
>: testimony about this needing hammer and chisel do you? I mean, was
>: this a norm or what? Do extant cans of Zyklon B have the design that
>: would nessitate hammers and chisels to get their lids off?
>
>Oj please....that's like saying that if you need to bang a jar of peanut
>butter to get it open once, you always need to.  Haven't you ever opened a
>tin with a lid of that type?  If it's stuck, you push a chisel under the
>lip of the inner lid, then whack the outer portion ofthe
>screwdriver/chisel with a hammer.  Given the way these lids are
>constructed, there's no handle, and one would need awfully long, strong
>fingernails to pry it open by hand.  that doesn't mean the lid is *always*
>stuck.

	So is Litt saying this particular lid was stuck, and usually
they were easy to get off? We'll have to wait and see. Anyway, it
appears Litt has a bit of disagreement with the professor, who seems
to say it was the standard necessary procedure. He didn't say anything
about it being a isolated problem at the time the testimony refers to.
The testimony didn't say anyything either. We'll have to wait and see
what the professor has to say. Right now I have to go over and report
this under "Stupid Germans".


>Have you ever ventured outside and done anything?

	Litt, as a goyem, I have ventured outside many times. Goyems
love nature and adventure.

>
>: 	I seen some discussion on the color of the pellets before.
>: This testifier says they were blue. Could be. I thought the color blue
>: associated with cyanide was caused by its chemical association with
>: iron, resulting in what is know as Prussian blue.
>
>(sigh) well, you KNOW if HCN interacting with iron turns bluish, then
>there's just *no way* the original pellets could be blue.  
>
>Nice logic, Moran.
>
>: 	He mentions the pellets were "thrown into holes". As usual,
>: there is a certain lack of peripheral discription that human beings
>: are prone to. Did anyone ask him for details? How come there is never
>: any inquiry for details and clarifications?
>
>Why do you assume that leaving out the details you want make a testimony
>false>  that's the worst logic I've ever heard.....
>
>: 	Do you know of any other testimony that mentions the engines
>: started up to drown out the screams of the victims? I notice he says
>: Grabner gave a shout "to the driver of a lorry, which had stopped
>: close to the crematorium." You mean the driver was just passing by and
>: stopped near the crematorium? And Grabner saw it and ordered him to
>: start the engine? Why? What did he do the other times? The testimony
>: says it was to drown out the screams. What was this for. So the people
>: in the camp couldn't hear it, or so the executioners couldn't hear it?
>
>Have you even tried to find out?  Or do you just like asing for the
>details you want?  Idiot, the witness is describing *this particular
>event.*  Why would he at this point be describing other events?
> 
>:The testimony has the testifier referring to the personel as 
>: being '"disinfectors"' with quote marks. The quote marks appear to
>: imply he is citing what was the common referrence. Do you have any
>: other testimony where this is so.
>: 	And again. Here we have what appears to be testimony as to one
>: particular incident and not from someone that was involved as one of
>: the usuals.   
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Then wouldn't that explain why he doesn't give details
>of other times?  Man, can't you even be consistent?



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 10 14:40:07 PDT 1996
Article: 42639 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 07:57:10 PDT 1996
Article: 36116 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:00:32 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Still another referrence by Mr.Edeiken from another post;

"Prove it's a fabrication you lying anti-Semitic hate-monger.  And,
you cowardly chuck of armadillo excrement , that is a direct
challenge.  Prove or admit that you are lying now just as you lied
when you maliciously described the actsed the acts of the KKKK as part
of a "Jewish conspiracy."'

	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 07:57:10 PDT 1996
Article: 36117 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:54:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:


>
>	Prove it's a fabrication you lying anti-Semitic hate-monger.  And, you 
>cowardly chuck of armadillo excrement , that is a direct challenge.  Prove or admit 
>that you are lying now just as you lied when you maliciously described the actsed 
>the acts of the KKKK as part of a "Jewish conspiracy."
>
>	--YFE

	Holy cow! Now Mr.Edeiken is accusing Moran of typing "KKKK".
In a couple of more days he may be asserting "KKKKK". By next week it
could be "KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK".
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 07:57:11 PDT 1996
Article: 36118 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:24:53 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>## Krema I in Auschwitz
>
>[Broad's testimony deleted]
>
># You say, by posting this "testimony" as true, that they needed
># a chisel and a hammer to get the lids off of Zyklon B cans? 
>
>Well, it does make sense that a can of Zyklon would be sealed
>with extra strength, right? You wouldn't want the can falling
>down from a shelf and the lid coming off, right? This would not
>be very healthy to someone standing nearby.
>
>Let's concentrate on this point. Your additional questions
>are equally dumb anyway. So, tell us:
>
>Do you think Zyklon-B cans required a chisel and hammer to
>open? Yes or no? Do some research, and come back with the answer.
>
	Its obvious you think cans of Zyklon B needed to be opened
with a hammer and chisel, whereas I think that anyone who believes it,
or tries to sell it to someone is corrupt, therefore my answer is
'No'.

	I've seen a Zyklon B can at the Holocaust museum in
Washington. I believe it was made of tin. Either it was a friction fit
tin lid or a screw lid, made of the same gauge sheet metal. It may
have had a paper seal around the lip of the lid and attached to the
can. I know it was tin - sheet metal gauge. Now what do you think
would happen to a tin sheetmetal can if you had to take off its lid
with a hammer and a chisel?
       Ain't you the professor that said he was going to post the
product brochure of Zyklon B? Now I'm going to have to go back and
find if it was you or Green. You wouldn't want to fess up and save me
some trouble would ya? 



>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 09:44:31 PDT 1996
Article: 36142 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: The Anti-Zionist Journal...
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 15:11:57 GMT
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prib@aol.com (PriB) wrote:

>Arab commandos in Egypt.
>Attack in Cairo by arab commandos helps to restore arab pride
>and show non-arabs true perspective according to arab newspapers

	Is this a quote from the report referred to? Is this your
citation an atempt at discrediting the report? Is it the only one you
can cite?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 09:44:32 PDT 1996
Article: 36147 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: what a lame bunch of nazis
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 15:17:48 GMT
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rich hostetler  wrote:

>revisionists are a disgrace to their fuhrer. a real nazi would not only 
>acknowledge the extermination of the the jews, but would be proud of it, 
>& say "next time we'll get them all"

	So you say revisionists are not "real Nazis"? Your statement
is as lazy as your typing. You know what is meant by "lazy"? It means
you have said nothing, shown nothing and therefore you have thought of
nothing, or thought of something but can't put it into words, or you
tried it and realized it was too absurd to attempt posting.
	Anyway, you state revisionists are not "real Nazis". Keep up
the good work.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 10:16:49 PDT 1996
Article: 36155 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:07:12 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>CHUCK FERREE wrote:
>moran, are we talking here about jars of pickles? Or cans of deadly 
>substance? Please give me some kind of rational for debating whether 
>or not the guys what opened the cans of Zyclon B used screwdrivers,

"screwdrivers"? Who said "screw drivers"? Hammer and chisel is what is
said. You reduced it to "screw driver". Thus your admission that the
hammer and chisel belief is absurd.
  
>can openers...(German ones) chewed the lids off, or unscrewed them. It 
>doesn't mean a thing, you idiot. The poison was used, if they prefered 
>to put the stuff in baggies, what the hell. Pray tell, what makes one 
>bit of difference? You just don't get it, pal. The pellets came in a 
>can designed by guys who knew it was a killer, so they certainly 
>wanted to protect their fellow countrymen, and they put the stuff in 
>containers which had to be handled with care. Read the label on 
>whatever you spray your garden with. If you do, you won't use it at 
>all, pal!
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>
>> 
>> >tom moran  wrote:
>> ># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> >
>> >## Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>
>> >
>> >[Broad's testimony deleted]
>> >
>> ># You say, by posting this "testimony" as true, that they needed
>> ># a chisel and a hammer to get the lids off of Zyklon B cans?
>> >        Ain't you the professor that said he was going to post the
>> product brochure of Zyklon B? Now I'm going to have to go back and
>> find if it was you or Green. You wouldn't want to fess up and save me
>> some trouble would ya?
>> 
>> >-Danny Keren.
>> >
>> >--
>> >Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>> >
>> >-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 11:02:59 PDT 1996
Article: 36157 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:17:38 GMT
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rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:

>In article ,
>Daniel Keren  wrote:
>>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>[Broad's testimony deleted]
>>
>># You say, by posting this "testimony" as true, that they needed
>># a chisel and a hammer to get the lids off of Zyklon B cans? 
>>
>>Well, it does make sense that a can of Zyklon would be sealed
>>with extra strength, right? You wouldn't want the can falling
>>down from a shelf and the lid coming off, right? This would not
>>be very healthy to someone standing nearby.
>>
>>Let's concentrate on this point. Your additional questions
>>are equally dumb anyway. So, tell us:
>>
>>Do you think Zyklon-B cans required a chisel and hammer to
>>open? Yes or no? Do some research, and come back with the answer.
>>
>>
>>-Danny Keren.
>
>	I'm curious about this.  Since I've used a hammer and tire iron 
>to open cans of paint, I don't see _why_ Zyklon-B couldn't be stored in a 
>similar manner.  In fact, as Dr. Keren points out, it would probably be 
>the most sensible way to store something as poisonous as Zyklon-B.  
>
>	So what exactly _was_ Tom Moran trying to say here, anyway?
>
>Peace
>Kevin Filan

	I've used tire irons or trowels, screw drivers, quarters and
keys to open paint cans.  I've used hammers, rocks, handles of screw
drivers and pieces of wood to close paint cans. Then I don't ever
recall having to use a hammer to open paint cans.
	Perhaps you would like to expand on your technique for opening
paint cans with hammers.
	Anyway, Zyklon B cans are not designed like paint cans. "What
was Moran trying to say here anyway?" Is it not clear enough. He says
the assertion that it was necessary to open tin cans with hammer and
chisel is beyond idiotic.
	Your statement "I don't see why Zyklon B couldn't be stored in
a similar manner" as paint cans is totally legimate. It could have
been. But it wasn't.  
	
>Kevin Filan	Home Page: http://www.necronomi.com/u/kfilan/home.html
>______________________________________________________________________
>
>Satan Wants YOU .... to browse http://www.necronomi.com/p/bbs/home.html 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 11:03:00 PDT 1996
Article: 36162 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:26:05 GMT
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>: 
>: >In article <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>: >>Dr. Irving Moskowitz "says he is merely doing the '"natural thing for
>: >>a Jew"'.
>: >>	He is cited as an orthodix Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
>: >>Holocaust. 
>: >>	Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
>: >>It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
>: >>at it.
>: 
>: >    You call it *fun* to ask someone to recount for you all of their dead
>: >    relatives?
>: 
>: >>	One hundred and twenty relatives? Ah yes, a "natural thing" to
>: >>assert.
>: 
>: >    Especially if it happened.
>: 
>: >>	Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why "the
>: >>natural thing" is to just blurt out a gross fabrication. 
>: 
>: >    Well, I have never heard of the man so I can't assert I know what he
>: >    said is true, but consider the following:
>: 
>: >    As 90% of the Jews in Poland and other Eastern European countries were
>: >    killed by the Nazi's, it makes sense that several of the survivors
>: >    would have experienced losing 90% or so of their relatives.  
>: 
>: 	Can you name 132 (120 + 12 more or less)ancestral relatives and
>: the manner in which they died?  That is without even going into
>: other requirements for this to be true.
>
>I cannot offhand.  I can get you a list, though, from someone who did.  My
>grandfather compiled a complete history of his family, and where some are
>now, or what happened to them.  The numbers lost in the holocaust are
>staggering.  I look at the family tree he compiled, and huge branches stop
>at the 1940s, with notations of their murder in the Holocaust.  Some
>little branches trickle through (a few survivors, but mostly the ones who,
>like him, came to America before the holocaust) and are growing again.  
>
>So there's the number. Then you go into the books, and you can see for
>most (not all) what happened -- where they died, etc.  I don't think that
>he has a "description" of how they died, but given that the point was that
>Moran was doubting the high numbers, I don't see why you would need a
>description of the manner of death.

	Of course Moran said "a full accounting" which you have
altered into "description of death". I would realize if it was true he
wouldn't have resources for that knowledge, but he should have some
"accounting".  

>: 
>: I don't
>: >    know anythign about Dr. Moskowitz's family, but lets consider my family
>: >    (fairly traditional Eastern European family with some Jewish, some
>: >    Russian Orthodox, some atheist, and a variety of other things mixed
>: >    in).
>: 
>: >    My mother's mother was one of eleven.  My mother's father was one of
>: >    six.  My father's father was one of three.  My father's mother was one
>: >    of two.  In all, I have 22 relatives from that generation.  Those 22
>: >    produced about 58 offspring (there are enough people that I am not sure
>: >    if I am missing someone without having a family tree in front of me). 
>: >    Those 58 produced about 77 in my generation.  My generation, so far as
>: >    the most current tree I have shows, have produced 41 offspring.  So,
>: >    just going back to my grandparents I have come up with 198 people.  And
>: >    that does not include inlaws!
>: 
>: 	But you are not going backwards only but mixing forward and you
>: have not claimed to have the records of their manner of death.
>: But then of course you are not claiming that the records were
>: preserved to be brought out of Europe either.
>: 
>Idiot!  He's just showing that a huge family is not impossible as Moran
>insinuated.  He's not listing his relatives who died, yutz; he's showing
>the size of his family.
>
>Learn to read!
>
>
>
>
>: >    Had my family been all Jewish and been swept up by the Nazis somewhere
>: >    in Eastern Europe, given that the Nazis destroyed 90% of the Jews, I
>: >    can easily see how they might have killed 120 of my relatives.
>: 
>: 	Learn about the arrow of time some day.  One direction only.
>
>What the hell are you talking about?  Drunk again?
>
>You make some of the most non-sequiteurish arguments I have ever seen.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 11:03:01 PDT 1996
Article: 36163 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:28:17 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
>>  arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.
>>  
>>>>>
>	Sure.  I looked at my family tree and counted.  The actaul total was 160 
>(including relatives by marraige).
>
>	--YFE
	Okay, lets take the 1%, 100,000 out of 10,000,000. This would
come out to 16,000,000.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 11:03:01 PDT 1996
Article: 36165 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:30:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 35
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4n0sr6$9rk@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...
>>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>  
>>>  	Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
>>>  arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.
>>>  
>>	Sure.  I looked at my family tree and counted.  The actaul total was 160 
>>(including relatives by marraige).
>
>    Well, Tommy, I didn't lose too many relatives in the Holocaust.  I will
>    ask my mother (a rather accomplished genealogist) for a count tomorrow. 
>    I did, though, lose many relatives in the Russian pogroms.  I is
>    striking to look at my family tree and see how many branches simply end
>    early in this century.  I suspect I lost 100 relatives to the Russians. 
>    And even though it happened decades before I was born, it is
>    interesting how the scars are carried by the family through the years.
>
>    You know, Tommy, this is one reason why you get so much hate thrown
>    back at you in the responses to you.  While guess and joke and lie when
>    you talk about the Holocaust, it is very real to many people here who
>    have lost up to literally hundreds of relatives each in it.  That
>    joking hits home as much as it would hit you if a group of people raped
>    your mother and then denied it and laughed about it afterwards.


	Okay now it has been escalated to "hundreds of relatives
each". Lets consider it to mean 200. This would come out to 20,000,000
people lost, considering only 1% of the accomodating number of
10,000,000.
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 11:03:02 PDT 1996
Article: 36166 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:36:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 
>: 	The world wide Jewish population today has been put at 13, 16
>: or 20 million, take your pick. 
>: 	For the following ciphering lets give the doctor and any
>: defenders some accomodation to keep the finale from being any more
>: absurd than if we used any of the other numbers.
>: 	Lets say the figure was 10,000,000.
>: 	Lets just take 100,000 of this 10 million figure, or 1%. Lets
>: say each one had 120 relatives lost in the Holocaust, as the doctor
>: claims he had. This would come out to 12,000,000. One percent of 10
>: million, times 120 relatives = yup, 12,000,000. 
>
>It appears not to have occurred to Mr. Moran that:
>
>a) Nobody has ever claimed that every Jew in the world lost 120 
>   relatives in the Holocaust, and
>
>b) Many people who died in the Holocaust were relatives of more
>   than one person, making Mr. Moran's mathematical analysis
>   completely absurd.
>
>Really Tom--this is reaching, even for you.
>
>Bill

	This I expected. This is why I made the over all Jewish
population 10,000,000 instead of the high figure 20,000,000, and then
only used 1% of that more than accomodating edge for you to work with.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 11:03:03 PDT 1996
Article: 36167 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:39:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 48
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>>: 
>>: 	The world wide Jewish population today has been put at 13, 16
>>: or 20 million, take your pick. 
>>: 	For the following ciphering lets give the doctor and any
>>: defenders some accomodation to keep the finale from being any more
>>: absurd than if we used any of the other numbers.
>>: 	Lets say the figure was 10,000,000.
>>: 	Lets just take 100,000 of this 10 million figure, or 1%. Lets
>>: say each one had 120 relatives lost in the Holocaust, as the doctor
>>: claims he had. This would come out to 12,000,000. One percent of 10
>>: million, times 120 relatives = yup, 12,000,000. 
>
>>It appears not to have occurred to Mr. Moran that:
>
>>a) Nobody has ever claimed that every Jew in the world lost 120 
>>   relatives in the Holocaust, and
>
>>b) Many people who died in the Holocaust were relatives of more
>>   than one person, making Mr. Moran's mathematical analysis
>>   completely absurd.
>
>	Relatives of more than one survivor?  
>
>	Since we have a 30% survival rate that would result in each
>survivor sharing a bit over 60 relatives.  
>
>	You are correct that Moran is wrong is wrong in one respect.  His
>calculation has a figured over twice as large as the official
>number.  It should only be a bit over 5 million not twelve.  
>

	Any ciphering is not contingent on the relative making the
claim is a survivor. Here we have Mr.Edeiken himself making the claim.
Is he a survivor? Now he has escalated the 136 figure to 160.  
>
>-------------------
>alt.revisionism
>
>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>
>   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 11:03:04 PDT 1996
Article: 36169 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:41:58 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: 
>: 	The world wide Jewish population today has been put at 13, 16
>: or 20 million, take your pick. 
>
>Says who?  You keep refusing to post what you base this on.   Let me guess
>-- your fertile imaginaiton?
>
>: 	For the following ciphering lets give the doctor and any
>: defenders some accomodation to keep the finale from being any more
>: absurd than if we used any of the other numbers.
>: 	Lets say the figure was 10,000,000.
>: 	Lets just take 100,000 of this 10 million figure, or 1%. Lets
>: say each one had 120 relatives lost in the Holocaust, as the doctor
>: claims he had. This would come out to 12,000,000. One percent of 10
>: million, times 120 relatives = yup, 12,000,000. 
>
>Tommy, your math skills astound me.  But you're forgetting one little
>thing -- your presumption is that each individual Jew has 120 *separate*
>relatives, unconnected to the 120 of any other Jew.
>
>See why that's a crock?  The crossover would be enormous -- my grandfather
>and his brothers would share almost the entire same 120.  So there goes
>your dumb theory.  Learn some basics before you try this sort of thing,
>nimrod.

	This is exactly why I accomodated a lower figure, 10,000,000
and then only considered 1% of this accomodating figure.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 12:37:49 PDT 1996
Article: 36184 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 15:03:00 GMT
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>    The only thing that is absurd here is your math.  Sheesh!
>
>    Oh, my mistake.  Your concepts of demography are just as bad as your
>    math, only they are harder to distinguish AS YOUR MATH IS SO BAD.
>
>    This stuff is laughable.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 

	Mittleman's method of responding to a mathematical statement.
He's so smug. He's so pert. He's so matter of fact. But no
mathematical rebuke.
===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 17:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 36227 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:03:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:


>Dr. Keren is indeed correct to be suspicious of Mr. Giwer.
>
>What's wrong with this logic:
>
>HCN is not blue except when complexed to a metal such as iron.
>Zyklon-B could not have a blue color.
>
>Mr. Mazal has provided evidence that one of the forms of Zyklon-B was
>silica gel impregnated with HCN.  Silica gel itself can be blue.

	I would imagine silica gel could be purple, red or any color
manufacturers would like. But was the German product blue? Mr. Mazal
"provided evidence"? Could have been. One of the Holocaust dependents
out here posted that he had the product brochure and was going to post
it. I believe it was the professor. Perhaps this brochure mentions
something. Do you have it, Green? You seem to be the resident chemist
for the Hoocaust dependants.

>
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"If it works, take it apart and find out why."  - unknown



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 20:33:53 PDT 1996
Article: 36264 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: what a lame bunch of nazis
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 15:29:35 GMT
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rich hostetler  wrote:

>revisionists are a disgrace to their fuhrer. a real nazi would not only 
>acknowledge the extermination of the the jews, but would be proud of it, 
>& say "next time we'll get them all"

	You want to see "lame"? Just keep reading your little
statement over and over again. Keep telling  yourself, 'This is
brilliant'. 'I'm so witty'. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 11 23:04:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36283 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:44:41 GMT
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>>	And of course all of the posts which you never took the time to
>>>>correct citing you for bones not burning and coke flues gases not
>>>>containing HCN were just "oversight" on your part. 
>
>>	At least you did not try to deny it this time.
>
>Just take a while to think about it. A bunch of people use a coke
>heating. Have you ever heard something about HCN instead of CO in
>troubles ? Since the medical cure is very different, you should. It's
>easy to understand: a poor rate of O2 will produce CO instead of CO2
>(less toxic); you can't get HCN while burning coke in standard
>conditions, or please tell how to do it.

According to -The Dictionary of Chemical Compounds-, under
"hydrocyanic acid" aka "hydrogen cyanide" aka "HCN", to:

"Derivation: (a) By catalytically reacting ammonia and air with
methane or natural gas. (b) By recovery from coke oven gases. (c) From
bituminus coal and ammonia at 1250 degrees".
>And the Ca in bones can't burn, while Ca++ is still in the final
>state. Only proteins in bones can burn (collagen aso), and how can it
>could deserve your ideas , as it is exothermic ?
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 09:28:28 PDT 1996
Article: 36323 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:53:30 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> 
>>  
>>  	Still another referrence by Mr.Edeiken from another post;
>>  
>>  "Prove it's a fabrication you lying anti-Semitic hate-monger.  And,
>>  you cowardly chuck of armadillo excrement , that is a direct
>>  challenge.  Prove or admit that you are lying now just as you lied
>>  when you maliciously described the actsed the acts of the KKKK as part
>>  of a "Jewish conspiracy."'
>
>
>	It should be noted that L'il Tommy still refuses to deal with the sad truth.  In 
>his frantic effort to to post something derogatory about Jews he described actions 
>taken by the KKKK and attributed them to a "Jewish organization" as part of a 
>"Jewish conspiracy."  L'il Tommy still hasn't the common decency to explain this 
>dispicable course of conduct.  To paraphrase a dead president I could a carve a 
>man with more backbone from a bannana.
>
>	--YFE
It should be noted that L'il Tommy still refuses to deal with the sad
truth.  In his frantic effort to to post something derogatory about
Jews he described actions taken by the KKKK and attributed them to a
"Jewish organization" as part of a "Jewish conspiracy."  L'il Tommy
still hasn't the common decency to explain this dispicable course of
conduct.  To paraphrase a dead president I could a carve a man with
more backbone from a bannana.

	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 09:28:28 PDT 1996
Article: 36340 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where are the Black Folk
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:35:05 GMT
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	Thrown over board enmass from ships transporting them to the
Americas. Any survivors sold into slavery. Their sons and daughters
being born into slavery. At the mercy of whatever whim was directed
their way, The Blacks certainly have a lot they could complain about
if it was in their nature. But it's not. Though a voice may rise now
and then to muster the history, it is not a common characteristic of
the Black community to whine and snivel over the past. Certainly this
past is far more documented than the Holocaust story, and if the Black
community did snivel, at least they would be sniveling over something
that had some credibility and not some myth that is used as a tool to
cower the world. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 09:28:29 PDT 1996
Article: 36344 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: amazing
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 15:20:21 GMT
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rich hostetler  wrote:

>hundreds of posts devoted to debate about an obvious historical 
>fact...

Maybe you have a handle on the "obvious historical fact". You should
post your stuff and put everyone out of their misery.

>how's about something more interesting like isreali massacres of 
>arab prisoners & civilians during the various middle east conflicts?



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 12:54:02 PDT 1996
Article: 44023 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <319338e9.1212853@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <319338e9.1212853@news.pacificnet.net>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:44 PDT 1996
Article: 36489 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 14:18:23 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 11 May 1996 13:30:53 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>[snip]
>
>>	Okay now it has been escalated to "hundreds of relatives
>>each". Lets consider it to mean 200. This would come out to 20,000,000
>>people lost, considering only 1% of the accomodating number of
>>10,000,000.
>
>Just for the excerise of doing it, I counted up the number of direct
>descendants of my maternal grandmother. The number is about fifty for
>that one woman alone. Using your arithmetic, I estimate that the death
>toll, if we were all to die at once, would be 2500 people.
>
>The toll would be considerably higher if we all had multiple
>personalities, each of which was named "Moran."

	What is your position at the University of Alberta?

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:45 PDT 1996
Article: 36490 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 14:43:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
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References: <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net> <319335e0.435500@news.pacificnet.net> <4mvpcn$4ag@moe.cc.emory.edu> <3194979c.3973933@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	Okay. More problems. The Yad Vashim in Israel is said to have
3,000,000 names of victims, which leaves 3,000,000 unaccounted for.
Now if the doctor claims he lost 120 relatives, Mr.Eeiken claims he
lost 160 and Mr.Mittleman claims some people lost "hundreds each" we
have to wonder if they are saying they have a full accounting of the
number of relatives lost or should we assume they have only accounted
for 1/2 of the family victims.

	Recap.

	Jewish estimates for their population today range from 13
million to 16 million to 20 million.
	Moran trying to keep the end results from being any more
absurd than it is accomodated a lower number of 10 million.
	Then Moran in very accomodating gesture took only 100,000 of
this number to use in his ciphering, which comes out to 1% (one
percent).
	Taking the doctor's figure of 120 relatives, and assuming his
family to be an average, Moran multiplies 120 X 100,000 which comes
out to 12,000,000. 
	Should we assume the doctor has a full accounting, or should
we assume he has only half, according to the Yad Vashim 3,000,000? In
this case we see the figures would be more like 24,000,000.

	Going by a minimum of "hundreds" claimed by Mr.Mittleman, and
using the 20,000,000 figure of Jews existing today we have 200 X the
20,000,000 which =  4,000,000,000 (4 billion), which would be only
half, considering Yad Vashim claims they have only 1/2 the survivor
list, which would be 2 X 4,000,000,000 which comes out to
8,000,000,000. About one and a half times the world population today. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:46 PDT 1996
Article: 36502 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: what a lame bunch of nazis
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 13:31:22 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 25
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jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>In article <3194b1e4.10702575@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> rich hostetler  wrote:
>> 
>> >revisionists are a disgrace to their fuhrer. a real nazi would not only 
>> >acknowledge the extermination of the the jews, but would be proud of it, 
>> >& say "next time we'll get them all"
>> 
>>         You want to see "lame"? Just keep reading your little
>> statement over and over again. Keep telling  yourself, 'This is
>> brilliant'. 'I'm so witty'. 
>
>Gee tommy, feeling a little threatened?  I think you are!  I think these
>observations are not quite as  banal as you say!  Your underwear is
>showing!
>
>By the way tommy, you should subject your own posts to the same scrutiny. 
>You will find very soon that you write banalities at a lower level than a
>second-grader, that your capacity for logic nearly exceeds that of a
>canteloupe, and that your "insights" are simply lies.

	Shalom.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36503 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 14:05:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <3195efae.2747293@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net> <9MAY199617451266@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mullb$pov@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <31949475.3166810@news.pacificnet.net> <11MAY199612180975@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31949475.3166810@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>> 
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>>: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>: 
>>>: >In article <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>: >>Dr. Irving Moskowitz "says he is merely doing the '"natural thing for
>>>: >>a Jew"'.
>>>: >>	He is cited as an orthodix Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
>>>: >>Holocaust. 
>>>: >>	Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
>>>: >>It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
>>>: >>at it.
>>>: 
>>>: >    You call it *fun* to ask someone to recount for you all of their dead
>>>: >    relatives?
>>>: 
>>>: >>	One hundred and twenty relatives? Ah yes, a "natural thing" to
>>>: >>assert.
>>>: 
>>>: >    Especially if it happened.
>>>: 
>>>: >>	Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why "the
>>>: >>natural thing" is to just blurt out a gross fabrication. 
>>>: 
>>>: >    Well, I have never heard of the man so I can't assert I know what he
>>>: >    said is true, but consider the following:
>>>: 
>>>: >    As 90% of the Jews in Poland and other Eastern European countries were
>>>: >    killed by the Nazi's, it makes sense that several of the survivors
>>>: >    would have experienced losing 90% or so of their relatives.  
>>>: 
>>>: 	Can you name 132 (120 + 12 more or less)ancestral relatives and
>>>: the manner in which they died?  That is without even going into
>>>: other requirements for this to be true.
>>>
>>>I cannot offhand.  I can get you a list, though, from someone who did.  My
>>>grandfather compiled a complete history of his family, and where some are
>>>now, or what happened to them.  The numbers lost in the holocaust are
>>>staggering.  I look at the family tree he compiled, and huge branches stop
>>>at the 1940s, with notations of their murder in the Holocaust.  Some
>>>little branches trickle through (a few survivors, but mostly the ones who,
>>>like him, came to America before the holocaust) and are growing again.  
>>>
>>>So there's the number. Then you go into the books, and you can see for
>>>most (not all) what happened -- where they died, etc.  I don't think that
>>>he has a "description" of how they died, but given that the point was that
>>>Moran was doubting the high numbers, I don't see why you would need a
>>>description of the manner of death.
>> 
>>	Of course Moran said "a full accounting" which you have
>>altered into "description of death". I would realize if it was true he
>>wouldn't have resources for that knowledge, but he should have some
>>"accounting".  
>
>    Tell me, Tommy.  Why would it be *fun* to see a "full acounting of
>    either Dr. Moskowitz's or Mr. Litt's family deaths?  What joy do you
>    get out of the recounting of others' horrors?
>
	I don't believe it. One iota. It would be fun to see the
idiocy of his accounting. The same goes for Mr.Edeiken who started off
saying he lost 136 relatives and then escalated it to 160.


>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:48 PDT 1996
Article: 36504 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Indians
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 13:27:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31935d8d.10592286@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>
>>	There is no doubt the Jews are constantly crying about any
>>"persecution" they have been subjected to. The Holocaust is the apex
>>of examples. There is weekly programming on TV on the subject, there
>>is weekly comment in major newspapers, and there are special programs
>>instilled on our education systems. There are a myriad of museums and
>>oraginizations focused on the Holocaust. The Holocaust seems to be the
>>only thing that happened in history. Yellow school buses line up
>>outside of the Holocaust Ministry of Love museums and the kids are
>>guided through the tales of the myth on a daily basis.
>>	But where are the American Indians? Certainly, far more
>>documented than any Holocaust, is the total uprooting, killing,
>>de-populating and displacement of the proud Indian. The real native 
>>American. How come they aren't out there wailing and crying? 
>
>    Because no one is denying that they died.

	So your saying the Holocaust has been pressed over the years
because of denial.  

>[big snip]
>
>>	The crying motto of the Holocaust is "Never again". 
>
>    That's who we are here, Tommy:  "Never Again, Internet Division"
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:49 PDT 1996
Article: 36505 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 14:16:54 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <3195f086.2963698@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3193499a.5485524@news.pacificnet.net> <4n0sr6$9rk@news.enter.net> <10MAY199623213123@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3194961c.3589788@news.pacificnet.net> <11MAY199612291495@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <3194961c.3589788@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4n0sr6$9rk@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...
>>>
>>>    You know, Tommy, this is one reason why you get so much hate thrown
>>>    back at you in the responses to you.  While guess and joke and lie when
>>>    you talk about the Holocaust, it is very real to many people here who
>>>    have lost up to literally hundreds of relatives each in it.  That
>>>    joking hits home as much as it would hit you if a group of people raped
>>>    your mother and then denied it and laughed about it afterwards.
>> 
>> 
>>	Okay now it has been escalated to "hundreds of relatives
>>each". Lets consider it to mean 200. This would come out to 20,000,000
>>people lost, considering only 1% of the accomodating number of
>>10,000,000.
>
>    No, Tommy, its worse than that.  Figure that everyone of the 6,000,000
>    Jews who died in the Holocaust lost 100 relatives.  So there had to be
>    at least 600,000,000 Jews!  And figure that the 9,000,000 or so Jews
>    who didn't die in the Holocaust also lost on average 100 relatives,
>    well now we are up to 1.5 billion.  Why that was almost half the
>    population in the world at the beginning of WWII!!!

	?  Could you cite just a few who have lost up to "literally
hundreds of relatives each"?
	On reading your 'ciphering' above I can see why you practice
just saying something snide about any mathematical recogning instead
of mathematical correction.
	If I wanted to, I could have just as well used the 20,000,000
Jews said to be in existance today times the 120 and now escalated to
160 and your "hundreds". Lets give your "hundreds" the minimum value
of 200 for your accomodation. 200 X 20,000,000 = 4,000,000,000. 

	I just took note of your previous "You know, Tommy, this is
one reason why you get so much hate thrown back at you in the
responses to you."
	"... hate ...".
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                          Quoth Danny: "Moron"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:49 PDT 1996
Article: 36506 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 14:22:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	Okay, lets take the 1%, 100,000 out of 10,000,000. This would
>>  come out to 16,000,000.
>
>	Are these number supposed to mean something?  What 1% am I 
>supposed to take?  What 10,000,000?  How does taking 1% of 10,000,000 "come 
>out" to 16,000,000?
>
>	You are incoherent.  Is that SOP with you are you just making a special 
>effort to seem like a total idiot when you post here?

	One more time for you Mr.Edeiken. 10,000,000 Jews living
today. Just using 1% of this number 100,000 X your 160 = 16,000,000. 
	You better take the problem over to Rachelle's house and have
her explain it to you.
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:50 PDT 1996
Article: 36507 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 14:23:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 18
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	Any ciphering is not contingent on the relative making the
>>  claim is a survivor. Here we have Mr.Edeiken himself making the claim.
>>  Is he a survivor? Now he has escalated the 136 figure to 160.  
>
>	I have "escalated" nothing.  One number is the figure for direct relatives; 
>the higher includes members of the family by marriage.  Your problem, other than 
>your pathological need to lie about Jews, is that you cannot read with 
>comprehension.  That is, of course, assuming that you even believe what you post.
>
>	--YFE

	Your first claim was 136. Your next claim was 160. After that
all we have is your 'explaination'.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:50 PDT 1996
Article: 36508 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:04:19 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 40
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References: <318f4e4c.3852988@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4n0vm0$4lg@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10MAY199623571408@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>Matt Giwer writes: 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>    Clear the area everyone.  Tom Moran is doing math... without a net!
>
>>>	Giwer, you have a legitimate consideration here. We have to
>>>assume the Jewish population was at a certain low ratio then as it is
>>>now. Maybe it was something like 2% or less. In that case we would
>>>have to multiply the Jewish figures presented by that ratio. Whoa.
>>>	So we have the Jewish 2% - lets make it 5%, giving them some
>>>accomodation. So the 5% increased 7 1/2 times in the 210 years.
>>>Leaving 95%. For every 5%, and in line with the Jewish increase of
>>>4,500,000 for their 5%, we have the 4,500,000, times 19 = 85,000,000.
>>>	Without the accomodation, and going by a 2% ratio, the figure
>>>would be 220,000,000. 
>>>	Wow.
>
>    Tommy, I have looked at this and looked at this.  I don't know what to
>    say.  For once you have left me speechless.  ;/
>
>    I don't know how to react to something this stupid.
>
>>	At least someone wants to stay on topic for this conference.
>>	It is quite a number. 
>
>    And the 163IQ is buying this garbage.  Sheesh.

	Here you are saying you don't know what to say but
nevertheless you said something, which as usual is just snide little
remarks and offers no mathematical counter address.
	I guess your just doing the best you can.
	


>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:51 PDT 1996
Article: 36511 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The best of Nizkor
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:10:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	"Ahem.  Excuse me.  But it is _still_ my condo and after I've
finished
redecorating, you are welcome to stay in the spare room.  But with the
budget cutbacks ... well, you know how these things are.  Good thing
you own the beach though, so you can always camp out in the tent and
wait for your yacht to come in, McVinsteinfen.

Anyway, while you are in town, perhaps you can help me sort out the
ZOG decoder ring delivery schedule.  I've tried to send one to Yale
_3_ times now and each time it bounces back (but I know he'll never
believe this)  Could be that the troll-bot's collander needs
resetting, that might circumvent the interference resonator."
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 12 17:03:52 PDT 1996
Article: 36512 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran's attitude on Jews
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:39:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	Moran knows quite a few Jews.

Some of them he really likes.
Some of them he likes a little.
Some of them he doesn't like.
And some of them really doesn't like.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 12:00:42 PDT 1996
Article: 36669 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:41:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31933eab.2687095@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>>
>>>    Great!  Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
>>>    lack of knowledge in.  There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
>>>    a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
>>>    population as a whole.  Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
>>>    and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.
>>>
>>>    I don't know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
>>>    that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
>>>    come up with.
>> 
>>	I agree. You certainly would have to resort to claiming some
>>wild extremes in order to validate your above and down play the
>>absurdity the numbers suggest.
>>	Even if you said Jews lives twice as long, had twice as many
>>children, emigrated twice as much as the goyim population the numbers
>>would still be absurd.
>
>    Well, as you know, I was referring to Giwer's post (which you deleted
>    in order to make your cute reply work).  But I am willing to address
>    the numbers you put forward.  Now what exactly from Bauer's book are
>    you saying was impossible?  You did a lot of hand waving, but I didn't
>    see any solid claims made.  Care to be explicit?

	The whole thing has been layed out. Go over it. How is it you
came up with the word "impossible". 
	Unlikely, improbable, not supported by anything concrete,
exaggerated, a fabrication, a lie, chutzpah, yes, but no "impossible".



>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 12:00:44 PDT 1996
Article: 36670 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:41:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <31976646.210417@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  >
>>  	I don't believe it. One iota. It would be fun to see the
>>  idiocy of his accounting. The same goes for Mr.Edeiken who started off
>>  saying he lost 136 relatives and then escalated it to 160.
>> 
>>>>>
>	Sure can L'il Tommy.  Just ask and the full list will be e-mailed to you. 
> By the way, you are lying again.  Didn't your mother teach you any better?
>
>	--YFE

	Okay. But don't just send me a list of names. Anyone can do
that. Present some documentation. Just 68, one half of the 136, would
be okay. 
	Mr.Edeiken, did you ever mention this out here before?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 12:00:45 PDT 1996
Article: 36671 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:42:08 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 30
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>Your first claim was 136. Your next claim was 160. After that
>>  all we have is your 'explaination'.
>
>	A direct lie, L'il Tommy.  An absolute direct lie.  But you do that often don't 
>you?
>
>	--YFE

>	Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
>  arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.
>  
>>>>
	"Sure.  I looked at my family tree and counted.  The actaul
total was 160 (including relatives by marraige)."

	--YFE

	While looking back to find this to cut and paste I read over
one of your immediate prior or two posts where you said the 136 number
was from just one side of your family tree. Wouldn't this mean that
maybe you lost more than 250 relatives? I accomodated by not just
duplicating the initial figure that applied to just one side. With
your escalation to 160 maybe it would be more like 300, considering
the escalation difference between 136 to 160. 
	Boy, you sure had a lot of relatives living all at once. You
sure you didn't count some that lived and died in the 18th Century?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 12:00:46 PDT 1996
Article: 36672 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:42:16 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:


>Jeremy Litt:
>"Of course, Mr. Moran has already been informed by numerous people that his
>logic has a huge hole in it:  he assumes that each person has a
>*different* 120 relaitves, instead of there being numerous Jews who are
>realted to *more than one person.*  If Mr. Moran cannot understand this
>concept, perhaps it is time for him to reenroll in basic math courses."

	A lower number, just one percent (1%), Jeremy.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 12:00:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36673 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Indians
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:42:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Fri, 10 May 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> 	But where are the American Indians? Certainly, far more
>> documented than any Holocaust, is the total uprooting, killing,
>> de-populating and displacement of the proud Indian. The real native 
>> American. How come they aren't out there wailing and crying? 
>
>I am glad to see that you are so concerned about the historical 
>injustices that have been dealt to Native Americans, Mr. Moran.  You ask 
>"how come they aren't out there wailing and crying?"  Well, as a matter 
>of fact, they are.  Ever read any Native American literature?  It's full 
>of anger, entirely justified anger at the genocide that was perpetrated 
>against Native Americans.  Take a look at Leslie Marmon Silko's _Almanac 
>of the Dead_, for starters, one of the most pissed-off novels of the last 
>decade.  Read the poetry of Luci Tapahonso, particularly "In 1864," which
>memorializes the Navajos murdered by Kit Carson on the "Long Walk."  Ever 
>hear of the "Trail of Tears," Mr. Moran?  Read up on Cherokee history.  
>Ever hear of a book called _Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee_, Mr. Moran?  
>Ever read any of Gerald Vizenor's journalism?

	Not much for such an awesome rout happening to them. Nothing
like the thousands of Holocasut books, the thousands of news papers
articles, letters, columns, and TV coverage of the Holocaust which in
it's self is probably in the hundreds, if not thousands. The Holocaust
is saturated.
	

>> Pride. No
>> one likes a sniveler and the ones with true grace recognize the
>> practice as lacking in grace, style and aesthetics.
>
>Oh, please, don't pull that "stoic Indian" bullshit here, Mr. Moran.  
>Especially in the service of claiming that Jews _shouldn't_ mourn those 
>who died in the Holocaust.  I assure you, Native Americans are every bit 
>as wounded by the genocide against them as Jews are by the genocide 
>against them.  And if you knew anything about Native American politics 
>and literature, you'd be aware of that.
>
>> Now that
>> the trend of Hollywood has phased away from its huge output of evil
>> American Indians, Americans are starting to address the history of the
>> American Indian in a revisionist way. Revisionist views contrary to
>> Hollywood's versions. 
>
>However, you'll note that virtually no one is claiming that the genocide 
>against Native Americans was 1) fictional, 2) exaggerated, or 3) 
>justified. 
>
>> While
>> the Jews get all they want, the Indian is still in dire straights by
>> living standards. The Jew in the little racist state of Israel lives
>> far better than the average American Indian.
>
>Nice little non-sequitur, there, Mr. Moran.  The average Anglo-American
>also lives far better than the average Native American--is that also "the 
>Jews'" fault?  But I _am_ glad to see that you are so in favor of 
>improving the lot of Native Americans.  Would you like to discuss the 
>various proposals for reforming the BIA?
>
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"We are now living in an era where the wall between news and 
>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage 
>in David Crosby's septum."
>	--Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 12:00:48 PDT 1996
Article: 36674 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Black Folk
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:42:35 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>It's very nice of Giwer to try and help Tommy Moran, but he
>can't really do that.
>
>Moran posted a claim that, obviously, he cannot support with
>any physical evidence whatsoever. Period.

	The evidence is in the minds of the public. Everyone has been
bombarded by the Holocaust story. I don't need any evidence. All that
is needed is the idea raised and it is evident.
	The Jews have probably wailed the Holocaust 50 times more than
all the other misfortunes in the world have been wailed upon in our
major medias. Its a weekly topic in the two major papers I read. More
like two times a week. 
	The more I see the happier I am. The more it is pressed, the
more disgusted people get. Crying wolf only draws attention, nothing
else. 	
	Lies written in ink can't be made true by saturation
propaganda. Lies written in ink can't be proved by forensic research. 



>It is for revisionazis to decide on their standards. They cannot
>apply this kind of double standard any longer. Either they
>believe only events that they can provide physical evidence
>for, or they don't.
>
>But it's impossible that these Nazi rabble will continue with the
>double standard. Make up your minds(?), naziboys.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 12:00:48 PDT 1996
Article: 36675 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:42:44 GMT
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Well, since the major flaw in your mathematics has been posted 4 times,
>and since you continue to psot the original error-filled caluclation
>anyhow, what are you looking for?  If you cannot understand basic math,
>and don't want to learn, why should he be your teacher?

	"Four times" you say?



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 12:00:49 PDT 1996
Article: 36676 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's attitude on Jews
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:44:06 GMT
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 					
>: 	Moran knows quite a few Jews.
>: 
>: Some of them he really likes.
>: Some of them he likes a little.
>: Some of them he doesn't like.
>: And some of them really doesn't like.
>
>And yet he keeps making derogatory remarks about "Jews."  One wonders how
>Li'l TOmmy treats his other friends he "really likes."

	"Speak the truth and lose your friends". Its better than
having friends that want you to accept something absurd. 

>Personally, it's been a long time since I've heard the "Some of my best
>friends are......" line.

	This is a cliche people use all the time. Its a real no, no. I
don't need any disclaimers, Litt. I post, you charge. 

	Now how would it fit in with your first statement?

	You throw out a worm and Litt is the first to bite.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 15:54:25 PDT 1996
Article: 36720 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 17:16:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


  tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

     "Your first claim was 136. Your next claim was 160. After that
  all we have is your 'explaination'.

Edeiken writes;
	"A direct lie, L'il Tommy.  An absolute direct lie.  But you
do that often don't you?"

Previously Edeiken wrote;
	""Sure.  I looked at my family tree and counted.  The actaul
total was 160 (including relatives by marraige)."

	--YFE
 	
	"Actual" meaning 160 instead the original 136.
>>	--YFE
>
>>	Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
>>  arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.
>>  
>>>>>
>	"Sure.  I looked at my family tree and counted.  The actaul
>total was 160 (including relatives by marraige)."
>
>	--YFE
>
>	While looking back to find this to cut and paste I read over
>one of your immediate prior or two posts where you said the 136 number
>was from just one side of your family tree. Wouldn't this mean that
>maybe you lost more than 250 relatives? I accomodated by not just
>duplicating the initial figure that applied to just one side. With
>your escalation to 160 maybe it would be more like 300, considering
>the escalation difference between 136 to 160. 
>	Boy, you sure had a lot of relatives living all at once. You
>sure you didn't count some that lived and died in the 18th Century?



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 13 19:59:11 PDT 1996
Article: 36771 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 17:24:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 8
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	Actually considering Mr.Edeiken's claim that he lost 160
relatives in the Holocaust, just considering one side of his family
tree, and that the Yad Vashem in Israel says it has only half the
names, we could say maybe there were 160 victims from the other side
of Mr.Edeikens family tree, and that these only account for half of
the number, which leaves us with 160 + 160 = 320 X 2 = 640.
	Mr.Edeiken lost 640 relatives in the Holocaust.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:53 PDT 1996
Article: 36887 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:58:05 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 
>: 	Actually considering Mr.Edeiken's claim that he lost 160
>: relatives in the Holocaust, just considering one side of his family
>: tree, and that the Yad Vashem in Israel says it has only half the
>: names, we could say maybe there were 160 victims from the other side
>: of Mr.Edeikens family tree, and that these only account for half of
>: the number, which leaves us with 160 + 160 = 320 X 2 = 640.
>: 	Mr.Edeiken lost 640 relatives in the Holocaust.
>
>We could say maybe there are pink unicorns on Jupiter, too, Tom, but
>it wouldn't tell us anything about the actual state of affairs.  In
>fact, the number of relatives on one side of his family whom Mr. 
>Edeikin knows were lost in the Holocaust bear no relation whatsoever
>to the number of relatives he doesn't know about, or to the number 
>of relatives on the other side of his family, or to the number of 
>relatives lost by any other Jewish family, or to the total number
>of Jews lost in the Holocaust.  You are engaged in bad statistical
>reasoning, Tom--but why should your statistical reasoning be any
>better than any other form of reasoning you do?
>
>Bill

	You and Mr.Edeiken should be conciously aware that when your
asserting all these deaths you are charging the Germans with the
murder. When you charge someone with murder, you better be prepared to
show considerable proof - for each victim.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:54 PDT 1996
Article: 36888 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer contradicts himself
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:58:23 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:
>
>>In article <4n3tjd$mhq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>> 
>>> >tom moran  wrote:
>>> 
>>> >[About African slaves]
>>> 
>>> ># Thrown over board enmass from ships transporting them to the
>>> ># Americas.
>>> 
>>> >This is so typical, coming from a "revisionist".
>>> 
>>> >What would a "revisionist" like Moran write in response if
>>> >such claims were posted about Nazis?
>>> 
>>>         There are obiviously several differences.  
>>> 
>>> >He would:
>>> 
>>> >1) Demand physical evidence to support the claim that people were
>>> >   thrown from the ships.
>>> 
>>>         The custom of burial at sea is hardly in question here.  
>>> 
>>> >2) Demand to see a document stating that the captured slaves
>>> >   were to be thrown from the ships.
>>> 
>>>         Only the dead ones.  You missed the custom entirely?
>>> 
>>> >3) Ask "if they intended to throw them into the water, why did they
>>> >   bring them along in the first place"?
>>> 
>>>         Again, only the dead ones were cremated ... sorry, wrong subject.
>>> 
>>> >4) Demand to know each and every detail about this "alleged crime".
>>> >   Like, exactly how many people were thrown over board, etc.
>>> 
>>>         Burial of the dead at sea was not a crime.
>
>>Mr. Giwer, in an earlier post in this thread, you bemoaned (so
>>authentically, I'm sure) the treatment of slaves as property.  However, in
>>this post, you explain away the possibility of live slaves being thrown
>>overboard and drowned by saying that slaves were thrown overboard when
>>they were dead.  Why?  Because of the custom of "burial at sea," of
>>course.
>
>	This is the first time I have heard the claim that live slaves
>were thrown overboard.  Been listening to Screwie Louie?  Slaves
>were the entire purpose and profit for the trip.  That would be
>the same as throwing money overboard.
>
	I recall information that said live slaves were thrown over
board to avoid being caught with the cargo by some authority, which I
might think was the Yankees.
>-------------------
>alt.revisionism
>
>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>
>   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:55 PDT 1996
Article: 36889 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:13:32 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <3198939c.900385@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4mragh$5jo@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4n0h7h$g2f@hil-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <31948b7a.868529@news.pacificnet.net> <4n8avr$2fm@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <31948b7a.868529@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>According to -The Dictionary of Chemical Compounds-, under
>>"hydrocyanic acid" aka "hydrogen cyanide" aka "HCN", to:
>>
>>"Derivation: (a) By catalytically reacting ammonia and air with
>>methane or natural gas. (b) By recovery from coke oven gases. (c) From
>>bituminus coal and ammonia at 1250 degrees".
>>And the Ca in bones can't burn, while Ca++ is still in the final
>>state. Only proteins in bones can burn (collagen aso), and how can it
>>could deserve your ideas , as it is exothermic ?
>
>An interesting post here.  Not only were our deniers wrong in claiming
>that the HCN comes from atmospheric N2 (It comes from nitrogen in the
>coal), they were wrong about it coming from the burning of coke (it
>comes from the gases given off when coal is heated to form coke).

	This could be. Extraction form bituminous coal is a method of
recovering HCN. It doesn't mean they could haven't just dedicated a
oven to this purpose. All this activity also put the cyanide compound
into the atmosphere to settle out over the earth which in an area like
Poland - Europe would plenty sufficient to account for any miniscule
traces found at Auschwitz.
	There are just to many other sources for HCN far better than
fumigation pellets. 
	My personal experience is when you tell someone what the "gas"
was they are shocked, bewildered and open for more.

>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"If it works, take it apart and find out why."  - unknown



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:56 PDT 1996
Article: 36890 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Indians
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:22:32 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <319896ed.1749471@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31935d8d.10592286@news.pacificnet.net> <11MAY199621083698@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3195e6e4.497730@news.pacificnet.net> <13MAY199623453920@a>
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dmittleman@a (Danny) wrote:

>In article <3195e6e4.497730@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>-dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>- 
>->In article <31935d8d.10592286@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>->
>->>	There is no doubt the Jews are constantly crying about any
>->>"persecution" they have been subjected to. The Holocaust is the apex
>->>of examples. There is weekly programming on TV on the subject, there
>->>is weekly comment in major newspapers, and there are special programs
>->>instilled on our education systems. There are a myriad of museums and
>->>oraginizations focused on the Holocaust. The Holocaust seems to be the
>->>only thing that happened in history. Yellow school buses line up
>->>outside of the Holocaust Ministry of Love museums and the kids are
>->>guided through the tales of the myth on a daily basis.
>->>	But where are the American Indians? Certainly, far more
>->>documented than any Holocaust, is the total uprooting, killing,
>->>de-populating and displacement of the proud Indian. The real native 
>->>American. How come they aren't out there wailing and crying? 
>->
>->    Because no one is denying that they died.
>- 
>-	So your saying the Holocaust has been pressed over the years
>-because of denial.  
>
>    Yes, in part.  

	What part would you say this is? One percent, ten percent -
ninety nine percent?

>I am not sure I agree with your term "pressed".  Any
>    ethnic group which has experienced a genocide of 6,000,000 people
>    within the last half century or so which has the means to discuss that
>    genocide is going to do so.  It seems rather obvious to me.
>
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:57 PDT 1996
Article: 36891 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Indians
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:27:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <31989833.2075341@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31935d8d.10592286@news.pacificnet.net>  <3197666b.246997@news.pacificnet.net> <4n81qv$1jq@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <319820bd.42890335@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On 13 May 1996 12:16:47 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
>OBC) wrote:
>
>>In article <3197666b.246997@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote, after his rhetorical
>>"Where are the Indians?" question was demolished by Marty
>>Kelly:
>
>>>	Not much for such an awesome rout happening to them. Nothing
>>>like the thousands of Holocasut books, the thousands of news papers
>>>articles, letters, columns, and TV coverage of the Holocaust which in
>>>it's self is probably in the hundreds, if not thousands. The Holocaust
>>>is saturated.
>
>[snip]
>
>>Perhaps you should begin, Mr. Moran - could be an entire new
>>group of folks out there that you can turn your hatred
>>towards... you can write tawdry little pamphlets and sell them
>>like the Holocaust deniers do.....
>
>>"The Custer We Loved and Why," by Tom Moran... a revealing
>>look at the true story, including photographs showing Custer's
>>death in an Old Folks' Home in Georgia, in 1907....
>
>>"Indians? What Indians?" by Christopher Columbus III
>>"The Mayan Myth," by Tommy Moran
>>"The Ailing 'Aztec' Story: Put to Rest." by Michael Hoffman^2
>
>
>
>Little Big Horn: End of a Legend
>
>The Hoax of the Nineteenth Century
>
>Wounded Knee: A Judge Laughs at the Evidence
>
>Was the Encampment of the Sioux Justified?
>


	What position did you say you hold at the university?
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:57 PDT 1996
Article: 36892 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:34:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

		
	May 14,1996
	And yet another post by Mr.Edeiken;
"

	And how do your Jewish friends react when you tell them that
things done by the KKKK are part of a "Jewish conspiracy?"  Or when
you attempt to justify gangs of thugs beating up little girls becasue
they are Jewish?

	--Yale Edeiken--


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 36893 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.mideast,can.politics
Subject: Re: 960513: Canadians starve Iraqi children, just like Nazis killed Jews
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:53:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 18
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1089 alt.revisionism:36893 talk.politics.mideast:72616 can.politics:44733

ezundel@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

	
	The war against Iraq was a crime against humanity and U.S.
history.
	It was tantamount to fighting the American Indians with tanks
and machine guns.
	After the first day the Iraqis made no moves to defend
themselves against the attacks because it was thoroughly futile. 
	The U.S. then proceeded to bomb them for thirty days and
thirty nights.
	Now the U.S. is at the vanguard to maintain the stress against
the Iraqi people.
	You will see no war movies coming out of even Hollywood.
	Think about it. Even on the war in Viet Nam where we lost,
Hollywood gleans movies of heroism and victory, but with the war on
Iraq, Israels arch enemy, we will see no war movies.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 36894 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: holocaust
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:56:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 12
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References: 
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nussbaum@silly.com (Ephraim Nussbaum) wrote:

>during ww2 the Germans, as a deliberate policy, murdered millions of jews
>and others. These were specifically planned murders, not simply the
>ravages of war.
>It is simple nonesense to say otherwise.
>it is also simple fact that the deniers are vicious
>anti semites not historians.
>every one reading this allready knows both of these things
>
	Is there a difference in just making an announcement of fact
and alleging a fact followed with proof?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:14:59 PDT 1996
Article: 37064 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Indians
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:13:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3199c80c.1615673@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  Perhaps, Mr. Moran, that is because folks like you are not
>>  running about denying that the Indians received the treatment
>>  they did.
>>  
>
>	The Smithsonian is currently proposing a museum concerning the 
>American Indians -- including their treatment by Europeans -- *on* the Mall in 
>Washington.  Odd that there is no outcry similar to that of the deniers about the 
>Holocaust Museum *near* the Mall.
>
>	--YFE
>
	The Holocaust museum on the mall is bad enough, but right next
to the U.S. Mint? Yikes.
	I'm really glad to hear about the Indian museum. This way
people will get the difference between a museum of fact and one of
fiction.
	Actually Yale, I've been to the Holocaust museum. People are
not taken back. They are curious only. The museum gives out these
little card bios on individuals and when you look inside of the trash
bins, there are a whole mess of them in there. I checked because I
read about some Jew had complained about it.
	When you ask one of the attendants a question they seem
embarrassed.
	I took special note of a dominant theme, "Remember the
Children". I thought of the Palestinian kids killed by bullets for
throwing stones. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:00 PDT 1996
Article: 37067 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:44:54 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3199d12b.3950260@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
> 
>  
>>  	You are claiming 100% success in this matter?  How did you know
>>  where to start looking?
>
>	Yes, there was 100% success in determining the named which we 
>were successful in determining.  Duh.
>
>	Start looking for what?  Where my family came from?  We knew that 
>already, "Edeiken" and the variants thereof, is not a hard name to trace.

	"Variants"? What would that be like? Idayiken? Eideikin?
Ediekin? Doe?
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:01 PDT 1996
Article: 37068 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:48:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3199d20c.4175233@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>  
>>  	You and Mr.Edeiken should be conciously aware that when your
>>  asserting all these deaths you are charging the Germans with the
>>  murder. When you charge someone with murder, you better be prepared to
>>  show considerable proof - for each victim.
>
>	Actually I have never claimed that "Germans" were guilty of the 
>murders.  The murderers were nazis -- and that is the word I always use.  In fact, 
>my family lived in Lithuania; many of the murderers were native Lithuanians just as 
>the murders at Babi Yar were committed, in part, by Ukranians.  You are 
>dishonestly putting the word "German"  in my mouth just as you dishonestly stated 
>that actions taken by the KKKK were part of a "Jewish conspiracy."  This is part 
>of your technique of lying about Jews.
>
>	--YFE

	Since this is the 13th time you brought up this "KKKK" thing
without citing exactly where, I take special note of your term
"lying".
	When you say I put words in your mouth with the word "Germans"
does this mean you don't agree with Goldhagen?



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:01 PDT 1996
Article: 37069 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:53:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3199d388.4555095@news.pacificnet.net>
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hmazal@txdirect.net (Harry W. Mazal OBE) wrote:

>On Mon, 13 May 1996 17:24:48 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>
>>	Actually considering Mr.Edeiken's claim that he lost 160
>>relatives in the Holocaust, just considering one side of his family
>>tree, and that the Yad Vashem in Israel says it has only half the
>>names, we could say maybe there were 160 victims from the other side
>>of Mr.Edeikens family tree, and that these only account for half of
>>the number, which leaves us with 160 + 160 = 320 X 2 = 640.
>>	Mr.Edeiken lost 640 relatives in the Holocaust.
>
>
>Mr. Moran's mathematical abilities are only surpassed by his 
>execrable bad manners.

	And now after this announcement Mr. Mazal will come back with
the empirical method to prove it.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:02 PDT 1996
Article: 37082 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Take A Look, Deniers
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:46:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:


	Poor Chucky. He says "Take a look, deniers" and all there is
are some conclusions. Not empirical conclusions, but emotional
conclusions. Announcements.
	Chucky says "Take a look, deniers" as if all one had to do is
to read Chuky's post and they will say 'By golly, Chucky's right, I'm
going to deny my denierism'.
	Poor Chucky.
	But wait, maybe this is just an introduction and Chucky is
going to follow up with the empirical line to supporting the
announcements.
	Tick, tick ,tick. 
	STAND BY! Chucky's going for it?
	Ten, nine, eight, seven ...


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:03 PDT 1996
Article: 37097 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Repost] Tom Moran: A Chronicle of Lies (Round 5)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:02:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>As Mr. Moran seems to have difficulty substantiating his
>claims, it is clearly important to remind him of those which
>remain unproven. This file is maintained by the author, Marty
>Kelly, and will be published monthly to the net on an
>automated basis. The file will be updated by the author as
>often as Mr. Moran makes claims he cannot, or will not,
>substantiate.
>
>Archive/File: pub/people/m/moran.tom/morans-lies
>First-Published: 1996/01/15
>Author: Marty Kelley 
>Original Subject: To Err is Moran (Was: Tom Moran Recognizes his Errs!)
>
>Recently, Tom Moran has been asking participants in alt.revisionism to give
>him evidence that he he has ever lied.  He professes to be shocked--SHOCKED!
>--that anyone might think that he is anything less that scrupulously truthful
>in his posts to this forum.
> 
>To help Mr Moran out, I would like to re-post just a few of Mr. Moran's more
>notable departures from the truth.  I post this list with three disclaimers:
>1) It is not comprehensive.  There is a high degree of probability that Mr.
>Moran has made other incorrect statements.  I invite other participants in
>alt.revisionism to submit other examples of Mr. Moran's errs. 2)  It is
>possible that Mr. Moran posted some of these incorrect statements out of
>simple ignorance, stupidity, or ineptitude in reading--i.e., without
>deliberate intent to mislead.  While all of the Moranic statements listed
>here are indeed untrue, some of them may not therefore be "lies" in the
>strictest sense. 3) These summaries of Mr. Moran's inaccuracies are rather
>brief. If requested, I will happily re-post the entire articles in which his
>inaccuracies are discussed.
> 
>Let us begin with a recap of the immortal Moranism that inspired the 
>title of this thread:
> 
>On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, tom moran wrote:
> 
>> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
>[snip] 
> 
>> >Which article on Nizkor claims there were 3.1 million German
>> >Jews, Mr. Moran?
>> 
>>    Okay, sorry. I take note of "Government general". 
>> Tom Moran is capable of recognizing his errs. Any others?
>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>I replied:
> 
>Happy to oblige you, Mr. Moran.  Here are a few:
> 
>1) "Errs" is a verb; "errors" is the noun you may have meant.
> 
>2) You mistakenly thought that the U.S. Supreme Court, in _Lynch v. 
>Donelley_, called a nativity scene a "secular symbol." The Court did not.
> 
>3) You mistakenly claimed that Justice Harry Blackmun, in his decision on 
>_Allegheny County v. ACLU_, implied that the menorah was a "secular symbol."
>Justice Blackmun did not.
> 
>4) You mistakenly claimed that the Supreme Court, in _Capitol Square v. 
>Pinette_, held that the menorah was a "secular symbol."  It did not.
> 
>5) You mistakenly claimed that, again in _Capitol Square v. Pinette_, the 
>Court ruled that the menorah had "cultural significance beyond religion," 
>when in fact, this assertion was made by the *losing* party in the case, 
>the State of Ohio.  The Court *rejected* that argument in its ruling 
>in the case.

A number of months ago, Moran posted an account about Jewish
attempts to have the cross banned from public display while pushing to
have the menorah excluded from any, seperation of church and state
clause, they used as part of their attack.
	Moran had made referrence to a court case where he stated the
court made a determination that the cross should be banned on the
grounds it was a religious symbol and menorah should be excluded from
this because it was a secular symbol.
	Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
matching the situation.
	He submitted a press release that somewhat clarified the real
nature of the case. The full details of the case are still unknown to
Moran and evidentally to the HDL since they have posted no more
details on the case. From what was revealed, it appears a ruling was
made to exclude the menorah from any consideration when it came time
to determine if the cross was legitimate for display. Evidentally the
appeals court over turned the ruling, not going for the petitioning
party(s)'s argument that the menorah "was beyond religion".
	Moran regrets any pain and suffering he may have caused in his
not getting the details of the case totally straight. My heart goes
out to all those in the HDL who got themselves into fits of dispare,
flopping around on the floor, wrenching their garments etc.
	Anyway, as it turns out, the HDL has been on Moran's heels
ever since. Particularly when Moran posts something that excedes the
HDL's capacity to chutzpah against. They get themselves into a huff
and them resort to diverting over to the menorah situation. Moran has
pointed out that by their focusing on this one little thing shows they
in turn tacitly admit that Moran's other posts are too tough to deal
with and the HDL has to resort to focusing on something they think
they are capable of using to discredit Moran. Something like 'Oh. Look
at that one black grain of sand on the beach. Therefore the beach is
black'. Actually the HDL should thank Moran for his little faux pas,
since they have used it so many times to divert attention away from
and avoiding responses directly to many of Moran's posts.
	For the most part Moran was correct in his referrence to the
court case. There was a procedure to have the cross banned while
excluding the menorah from any clauses used to have the cross banned.
The argument that the menorah is "beyond religion" has a certain smell
to it, like a spoonful of chutzpah.
	In actuality there was considerable events that preceded this
court case and Moran gave a run down on it in his initial post on the
topic. Evidentally the HDL doesn't have any gripes with the rest of
the accounting, which was 90% of the story, since they keep focusing
on the court case exclusively.

	Since Moran plans on inserting this in the future to any
subsequent resurrections of the matter by the HDL, as has happened
perhaps thirty times over the last couple of months, Moran is going to
include a brief rundown on all the events he can recall about the
nationwide attempt by the Jews to have the cross banned while pressing
to have their menorah excluded from any consideration in the same.  
	
	It all started around one Christmas in Beverly Hills. A cross
was erected and displayed in a park that is right adjacent to Century
City along Santa Monica Boulevard. Jewish forces went into the attack
mode and challenged its presence. The report was made in the
L.A.Times. The next year the same thing came up and this time the Jews
in Beverly Hills defended the menorah, which was displayed in the same
park, as being a "secular symbol" and should not come under the same
reasoning used to ban the cross in that it was a religious symbol.
	Eventually, the word got around the Jewish community and the
attacks on the cross rose up in other cities across the country. Moran
being in the Philadelphia area one Christmas came across an article
about one of the attacks were the mayor of the town stated they
weren't going to allow the Jews to use the display of religious
symbols "for political reasons".  
	Moran had also in the last year or two recieved an article
>from  an associate in Florida about a shopping center which had a
policy of not allowing any religious symbols at all to be displayed,
but the Jews took offense that the menorah was included in this ban.
Utilizing their standard form of harrasement, they bombarded the
management with letters and phone calls and demonstrated to have the
menorah excluded from this ban on the grounds it is a "secular
symbol".
	Of course Moran's ability to amass all the events of Jews
conspiring to have the cross benned while having their own religious
symbol excluded is limited, but there must be many more. There is one
major Christian organization that has a wide collection of Jewish
attacks on their particular denomination and on the Christian
community in general, but this can not be revealed at this time
without their permission.
	For the Jews to assert the menorah is "secular" is putting the
spoon of chutzpah to your mouths, and Moran will leave out, at this
time, the overwhelming amount of evidence that can be presented to
show the use of the "secular" word is an insult, in anticipation the
HDL will come out and try to put the spoon of chutzpah to our mouths.
	Ah yes, if not "secular", then "beyond religion".  

 
>6) You have some decidedly odd ideas about how many trees can fit inside 
>the territory of Israel.

	
II.               "ISRAEL IS OUR ONLY PRIORITY" 
So goes the banner heading in a 1/4 page ad in the New York Times
1/23/94, under a little prelude copy that cites " -January 27, 1994-
is the New Year of the Trees."
	"Founded in 1901, the Jewish National Fund has long been
designated as the sole agency in charge of afforestation and land
reclamation in Israel."
	"JNF has planted over 200,000,000 trees throughout Israel. JNF
also builds roads and parks; prepares land for housing, agriculture
and industry ..."  the later being that area outside of the 8000 sq.
miles of the whole of Israel we would have to eliminate when trying to
figure out how many trees per sq. yard 200,000,000 trees would come
out to.

	After a little more boasterous copy we are given a sketch of a
rolling hill vista covered with trees. I wonder what a photograph
would show?
	Whatever the real story, this ad was placed in an American
newspaper for some reason. Evidentally to let us know how ecologically
minded they are. 200,000,000 trees? 
                         ==================

> 
>And that's just the first list.  The following additional "errs" come from
>subsequent posts in the thread, and from posts Mr. Moran has made elsewhere.
> 
>7) In the post "Debby's specifications; her own words,"  Mr. Moran quoted a
>Nov. 8, 1993 letter to the _New York Times_ by Deborah Lipstadt badly out of
>context.  Mr. Moran stated that Lipstadt's standard of proof was that "the
>tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof."
>     However, while these words do appear in Lipstadt's letter, they do NOT,
>as Mr. Moran asserst, constitute Lipstadt's sole criterion for judging the
>historical facts of the Holocaust.  In fact, the line Mr. Moran cited is a
>position to which Lipstadt objects: She introduces that line by attributing
>it to _critics_ of Jean Claude Pressac's book on Auschwitz, and she follows
>it with the following paragraphs:
> 
>          In the best of all possible worlds they would be right.  The
>     testimony of those who suffered as well as the corroboration of the
>     perpetrators themselves would be the ultimate proof.  But eventually the
>     survivors will pass on and future generations will seek this
>     documentation.  Moreover, we live in a world where a small group of
>     people, many of whom have an anti-Semitic and neo-fascist agenda, labor
>     assiduously to convince future generations that the Holocaust was a
>     hoax.  Irrespective of their motives, their claims are utter nonsense.
>     	But as recent polls have shown, some people have been confused by 
>     them.  They see the deniers as the "other side" of a debate.  Mr.
>     Pressac's book adds to the pre-existing mound of documentary evidence
>     and testimony which describes how such a horror happened.  
> 
> 
>(Source: _NY Times_, Nov 8, 1993, p. A-18)
> 
>8) [Submitted by Josh Klein  on Sat Dec 16]: He
>claimed that Hilary Ostrov had written articles for both the _L_A_ Times and
>_The_New_York_Times_.
> 
>9) He claimed, in one of his earliest posts to alt.revisionism, that the 
>movie _Schindler's List_ had "bombed" at the box office, when in fact it 
>did very well in theaters and as a video release, in addition to winning 
>Academy Awards for Best Picture and Best Director.  
>     Mr. Moran e-mailed me to insist again that _Schindler_ had in
>fact "bombed," and that despite the awards, very few people had actually gone
>to see the movie.  He claimed that it had actually opened and closed in just
>a couple of weeks, then quietly disappeared.  To follow up on his claims, I
>asked about _Schindler_ in rec.arts.cinema.past-films. I received several
>messages pointing out that _Schindler_ grossed over $110 million in 1994
>alone (it was released in late 1993 in several cities); in the film business,
>any picture with sales over $100 million is usually considered a
>"blockbuster."  Further, another person, citing _Variety_ magazine, wrote to
>say that _Schindler_ had the 13th-biggest box-office revenues of 1994.  Those
>statistics are hardly consistent with Mr. Moran's assertion that the film was
>a "bomb."
> 
>10)  Mr. Moran has falsely claimed that the Bloom Southwest Jewish Archives
>(at the University of Arizona) is dedicated to proving that Jews are superior
>to Catholics.  Needless to say, no statement of the sort appears in the Bloom
>Archives' web pages; Mr. Moran just made that up.  The website (whose URL I
>don't have handy at the moment) _does_ include an article about the
>Southwest's crypto-Jews, which Mr. Moran selectively and misleadingly quoted
>to give the impression that the Bloom Archives pursued an anti-Catholic
>agenda.  He ignored several followup posts which pointed out that the Bloom
>Archives' website includes statements about the rich cultural diversity and
>commitment to religious freedom of the many peoples who settled the
>Southwest.


I.           - "South West Jewish Archives" -
 (Webcrawler > Jews > Southwestern Jewish Archives > Crypto-Jews)
 
	"The Bloom Southwest Jewish Archives has amassed an enormous
amount of information ..." to show that the Catholics were stupid
people and that Jews were the only ones who could read and write in
pioneer days.
	The Spanish Catholics feared the Jews because they had
"special expertise in various fields".
	Offering up the best of their "enormous" archives, we might
assume, the Blooms cite a few examples to support their apparent
motive of portraying Jews as superior, the first being a "'Mrs.O'" who
had the feeling she was Jewish, because she was raised in a Hispanic
community and her family was the only '"family who were intellectuals,
so therefore we must have been Jewish"'. "Pressed" further she said
'"Well we were the only ones who had books in our house therefore we
must have been Jewish"'.
	Another example given by the Blooms to lead us to how
extensive Jewish presence was in the Old West was from "a young man"
who remembered his grandfather carving menorahs.
	In another display of ethnocentricism and exemplifying the
genetic connection of Judaism, the Blooms quote a Denver dentist who
joined a Jewish congregation, saying he did not have to convert, "even
though his father was a church going Catholic, his mother did not want
him to go to church and told him repeatedly that she was Jewish and
therefore he was too". "My mother was the clever one in the family"
and their "...Catholic friends sneared at us". 
	Another example from the "enormous" archives was a translater
>from  the Univ. of Ariz. who had a amulet with Hebrew text and who's
mother never cooked pork.
	Still another person raised by a "Catholic" mother wrote a
response to a letter (not discused) that appeared in the The
Albuquerque Journal, and the response quoted in part by the Blooms
proclaimed, "...scratch a New Mexican and his Indian blood will flow.
Scratch a little deeper and his Jewish or Moorish blood will flow.
Scratch no deeper 'cause that's all you need to know."
                           =============


>11)  Mr. Moran has frequently misattributed postings from one writer to
>another.  Most commonly, he has mistaken Danny Mittleman for me.  In the most
>recent case of this "err" (Sat, 16 Dec 1995, in the thread "Zioexaggeration
>= 200,000,000"), Mr. Moran also falsely accused Danny of lying:
> 
>Mr Moran wrote:
> 
>> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>> >    And, I have a great grandmother who was Jewish and Wintered in Tucson
>> >    in the 1940s.  Tom, thanks for showing me this archive.  It may 
>> >    help me track down some information about where she lived and 
>> >    what she did in Tucson.
> 
>>    At one time you claimed to be Catholic and then you claimed to be a
>> Unitarian, and all the time I knew you were lying. I could see in your
>> writing.
> 
>I replied that *I'm* the ex-Catholic Unitarian, and Danny pointed out that
>although he had a great-grandmother who was Jewish, he is himself an 
>atheist. Mr. Moran did not reply to these corrections.
> 
>12) Mr. Moran has falsely accused his opponents of holding beliefs which they
>do not.  In the past, he has falsely claimed that I wish to restrict all
>discussion of "Holocaust revisionism" to alt.revisionism. I do not believe
>that, and have never stated that I seek any such restriction. (Mr. Moran's
>assertion is doubly ridiculous in that it assumes that I have any power to
>enforce such a restriction!)
>     Most recently, Mr. Moran has falsely claimed that Keith Morrison
>supports the criminal prosecution of Holocaust deniers for their beliefs. 
>Despite repeated calls to produce evidence of this claim or to apologize for
>insulting Mr. Morrison, Mr. Moran has not responded.
> 
>This is, I believe, only a partial list.  I invite other alt.revisionism
>participants to post (and/or e-mail to me) other examples of Mr. Moran's many
>"errs".
> 
>>>>Posted and E-mailed to Tom Moran and to the Nizkor webmasters.
>Followups to alt.revisionism, please.  E-mailed 
>replies to this message will be posted to Usenet unless otherwise 
>requested by sender<<<
>
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I loathe people who keep dogs.  They are cowards who haven't 
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>      Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>            Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:04 PDT 1996
Article: 37109 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:52:06 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3199d2bb.4349785@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3195f4ad.4026496@news.pacificnet.net> <4n5r77$ckv@news.enter.net> <31976f57.2531712@news.pacificnet.net> <4nbgs2$3p3c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <31976f57.2531712@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
>
>>
>
>>	Actually considering Mr.Edeiken's claim that he lost 160
>>relatives in the Holocaust, just considering one side of his family tree,
>>and that the Yad Vashem in Israel says it has only half the names, we
>>could say maybe there were 160 victims from the other side of Mr.Edeikens
>>family tree, and that these only account for half of the number, which
>>leaves us with 160 + 160 = 320 X 2 = 640.
>>	Mr.Edeiken lost 640 relatives in the Holocaust.
>
>Tom, you are somehow--and I find this incredible--more base and vulgar than
>Giwer and Baron combined.  You really are to be pitied.

	You mean I made a mistake? All right. Maybe it was only 639
relatives.
	Why don't you post something like the 'The Best of Moran' to
show all the pityful stuff. I'll post 'The Best of McFee'. 

>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:04 PDT 1996
Article: 37129 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Take A Look, Deniers
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:17:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>IMAGINING HITLER
>by Alvin H. Rosenfeld
>
>          From the Introduction:
>          ---------------------
>
>          "Nazism...has been lifted from its historical base
>          and transmuted into forms of entertainment and
>          political bad faith.  What a generation ago stood
>          before us as a historical and moral scandal of 
>          unprecedented proportions is today a source of 
>          lighthearted amusement, popular distraction, 
>          pornographic indulgence, and antisemitic slander."
>
>                                # # #
>
>In a chapter on "Domesticating Hitler," Alvin Rosenfeld specifically
>mentions the Holocaust revisionists:
>
>Page 64
>-------
>
>     Anatoli ended his own book* by stressing the moral responsibility
>for remembrance, a responsibility made urgent by the desires of those
>who would forget history or, still worse, deny it.  "A former
>high-ranking officer in the Gestapo declared recently in an interview
>that there had never been any death camps, ovens, or gas-chambers,
>that all such things had been invented by propagandists.  He stated,
>quite simply, that they had NEVER EXISTED." In the years since Anatoli
>wrote these lines, the Gestapo officer has been joined by a great many
>others who would also like to undo the Holocaust by weakening the
>tenacity of memory that keeps it alive.  "If you tell them loud, to
>their faces, that they are being deceived," Anatoli went on, "they
>won't listen.  They will say it is only a malicious slander.  And if
>you produce facts, they just won't believe you.  They will say: 'Such
>things never happened.'"

	A Gestapo was the first revisionist and all those who are now
are the followers of this Gestapo?
	Of course this is only an announcement, right chuck?

>
>* Anatoli, A. [Kuznetsov]. Babi Yar. Translated by David Floyd. New 
>  York:  Pocket Books, 1977.
>
>Pages 66-67
>-----------
>
>     The most blatant example of this kind of willful substitution [of
>a fictitious history for actual historical events] is to be found
>among the so-called revisionists, who have attempted to erase the
>Holocaust from historical memory by outright denial of the Nazi
>program of genocide.  To them, there simply was no such thing as the
>Endlo"sung, and all claims to the contrary are dismissed as a "hoax"
>invented to serve "Jewish interest." Thus, they have sought to
>disclaim the presence of gas chambers in the Nazi death camps or even
>to deny that such camps ever were established in the first place for
>the purpose of murdering Jews and others opposed to the Third Reich.
>The "hoax," which is entirely of their own making, is especially
>pernicious, for as it is developed through the pages of the
>revisionist journals, it assumes the guise of historical scholarship
>and seems to take on the character of authenticity.  Authors with
>Ph.D.'s trailing behind their names, some of whom hold college and
>university teaching posts, regularly participate in a campaign of
>disinformation that mimics scholarly research but has as its sole
>purpose the undermining of the scholarly enterprise.  For those who
>know historical literature about the Third Reich, it is not difficult
>to expose the work of the revisionists for what it is -- mostly bogus,
>malicious invention -- but to the public at large, perhaps slightly in
>awe of academic-looking publications filled out with footnotes and
>"scientific" graphs, it is just possible that "revisionism" may begin
>to persuade.
>     As of this writing, the revisionists have no standing at all in
>the scholarly community and seem to be making only minor ripples in
>the consciousness of the public at large.  Their desire to rewrite the
>history of World War II by denying its very worst features is not
>shared by most Americans, although here and there journalists on the
>lookout for deviant types are able to turn up an occasional social
>studies teacher or small-town preacher who may advocate the
>"revisionist line."  What is of interest about revisionism, therefore,
>is not its impact, which is trivial, but its motivation and the fact
>that its exponents feel that times have changed enough to allow them
>to broadcast freely the most poisonous lies about Hitler's crimes
>against the Jews.

	Another announcement, nothing more.

>
>                         WORK CITED
>
>Rosenfeld, Alvin H. Imagining Hitler. Bloomington: Indiana University
>Press, 1985.
>
>
>
>
>
>                                   [ holocaust ] 
>
>The Nizkor Project 
>webmaster@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
>Director: Ken McVay OBC 
>HTML: Jamie McCarthy 
>
>July 17, 1995



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:05 PDT 1996
Article: 37207 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:39:04 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
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References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <31948b7a.868529@news.pacificnet.net> <4n8avr$2fm@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <3198939c.900385@news.pacificnet.net> <4naoa2$lca@access5.digex.net>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <3198939c.900385@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>	This could be. Extraction form bituminous coal is a method of
>>recovering HCN. It doesn't mean they could haven't just dedicated a
>>oven to this purpose. All this activity also put the cyanide compound
>>into the atmosphere to settle out over the earth which in an area like
>>Poland - Europe would plenty sufficient to account for any miniscule
>>traces found at Auschwitz.
>
>    Oooh, I see we have a scientific jeenyus here to rival Matt Giwer.
>How did those miniscule traces get into the basement room yet cannot be
>found in the other buildings in Auschwitz?  Any theories, Mr. Scientist?
>
>>	There are just to many other sources for HCN far better than
>>fumigation pellets. 
>
>    Give a list.  Go for it.  Be sure to explain how they are better.
>
>    As little Tommy might put it, t s b h a.

	Is this the same thing that was in the e-mail you sent? No
wonder I don't bother to read your e-mail.

>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:06 PDT 1996
Article: 37208 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:37:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
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References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <31948b7a.868529@news.pacificnet.net> <4n8avr$2fm@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <3198939c.900385@news.pacificnet.net> <4najfi$afi@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <3198939c.900385@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	This could be. Extraction form bituminous coal is a method of
>>recovering HCN. It doesn't mean they could haven't just dedicated a
>>oven to this purpose. All this activity also put the cyanide compound
>>into the atmosphere to settle out over the earth which in an area like
>>Poland - Europe would plenty sufficient to account for any miniscule
>>traces found at Auschwitz.
>
>Ah, but perhaps Mr. Moran can explain why such traces of HCN
>were not found in the barracks and living quarters.

	Now you know I presented this in the critique on the Auschwitz
test done by the Poles. You know. The one you responded to with a
bunch of sarcasms and baby talk. It will be posted again. Maybe you
will be able to do little better the next time.
	
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"If it works, take it apart and find out why."  - unknown



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:07 PDT 1996
Article: 37209 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:40:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <3199d08a.3789550@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On 14 May 1996 08:56:36 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard
>Schultz) wrote:
>
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>[on the manufacture of HCN from coke (or "coking") oven gases]
>
>>Bad news, bub:  "coke oven gases" are *not* the products of coke 
>>combustion.  "Coke oven gases" are the gases released when coal is
>>*turned into* coke.  In case anyone is curious, the way you turn coal
>>into coke is by heating it *in the absence of air*.  The stuff that's
>>left behind (essentially pure C) is known as "coke".  The gases that
>>are distilled off are known as "coke oven gases" because you get them
>>out of a coke oven.  The liquid products of the distillation are various
>>oils, tars, pitch, etc., depending on where in the stack they come out.
>
>
>And just to complete the thought: the coke-fired crematoria would not
>produce any HCN which would later be found as a residue on the walls
>of the gas chambers. HCN on the gas chamber walls could only be
>present if a) the gas chambers had been morgues which were disinfested
>with HCN, or b) the gas chambers had been used to murder people. No
>documentation exists which shows that option a) was ever followed. If
>the deniers had it, they would post it. On the other hand, many
>witnesses, survivors and perpetrators alike, have testified that
>people were murdered in the gas chambers, and Nazi documents describe
>the gas chambers as such.

	You look like you should be a good candidate to respond to
"Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today" next time it's posted. Where were
you the first time?


>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:07 PDT 1996
Article: 37210 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.thenet.net!trellis.wwnet.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Indians
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:24:29 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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References: <31935d8d.10592286@news.pacificnet.net> <11MAY199621083698@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3195e6e4.497730@news.pacificnet.net> <319896ed.1749471@news.pacificnet.net> <14MAY199621590025@a>
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dmittleman@a (Danny) wrote:

>In article <319896ed.1749471@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>-dmittleman@a (Danny) wrote:
>- 
>->In article <3195e6e4.497730@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>->-dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>->- 
>->->In article <31935d8d.10592286@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>->->
>->->>	There is no doubt the Jews are constantly crying about any
>->->>"persecution" they have been subjected to. The Holocaust is the apex
>->->>of examples. There is weekly programming on TV on the subject, there
>->->>is weekly comment in major newspapers, and there are special programs
>->->>instilled on our education systems. There are a myriad of museums and
>->->>oraginizations focused on the Holocaust. The Holocaust seems to be the
>->->>only thing that happened in history. Yellow school buses line up
>->->>outside of the Holocaust Ministry of Love museums and the kids are
>->->>guided through the tales of the myth on a daily basis.
>->->>	But where are the American Indians? Certainly, far more
>->->>documented than any Holocaust, is the total uprooting, killing,
>->->>de-populating and displacement of the proud Indian. The real native 
>->->>American. How come they aren't out there wailing and crying? 
>->->
>->->    Because no one is denying that they died.
>->- 
>->-	So your saying the Holocaust has been pressed over the years
>->-because of denial.  
>->
>->    Yes, in part.  
>- 
>-	What part would you say this is? One percent, ten percent -
>-ninety nine percent?
>
>    17.375 percent.  Why?

	My calculations show 17.376 percent.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
> Quoth the Raven: "63.596% of all statistics on the internet are made up."



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:08 PDT 1996
Article: 37211 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:29:14 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  
>>  	Okay. But don't just send me a list of names. Anyone can do
>>  that. Present some documentation. Just 68, one half of the 136, would
>>  be okay. 
>
>	I am commuting to Scranton for a trial right now.  I will provide you with a 
>list of the murdered this weekend.
>
>>  	Mr.Edeiken, did you ever mention this out here before?

	Don't forget to introduce some of your logic into the trial.
Follow Derschowitz's statement on "Chutzpah", "Like a little boy that
murders his parent and then pleads to the court for mercy on the
grounds he's an orphan."


>	I don't know.  I have, I believe, posted portions of the memoirs of Bertha 
>Taubmann (nee Judeiken) who survived the Holocaust in Lithuania.
>
>	--YFE

	Another "survivor"? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:09 PDT 1996
Article: 37301 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 13:55:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	An yet, another time for Mr.Edeiken;

>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>  	Since this is the 13th time you brought up this "KKKK" thing
>  without citing exactly where, I take special note of your term
>  "lying".
>  	When you say I put words in your mouth with the word "Germans"
>  does this mean you don't agree with Goldhagen?

	Come off it, L'il Tommy.  It has been pointed out to you time and

again.  In fact, you posted the same lies again today.  Face it. L'il
Tommy you 
just like to lie about Jews.

	Face something else, L'il Tommy.  You have yet to read
Goldhagen's 
book and haven't either the integrity or intelligence to understand it
if you did.  
Your efforts to "discuss" it have been as basically dishonest as is
your attempt 
to attribute acts of the KKKK to a "Jewish conspiracy."

	--YFE


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 16 12:15:10 PDT 1996
Article: 37303 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 13:58:18 GMT
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		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:51 PDT 1996
Article: 37400 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 13:30:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	Seems the Holocaust story uses the records from the manufacturer
of Zyklon B to show that large amounts of Zyklon B were shipped to
Auschwitz. Seems some of these records are missing. Whole years worth.

    	Now who did it?
 
	Three main suspects. The Germans to cover up. Beneficieries of
the Holocaust. Or revisionist types out to discredit the story.
	We might suspect a gradual rise in shipments to Auschwitz in
relation to the increasing population once it was set up which shown
grapically would be represented by a more of less straight line rising
steadily.
	What the records could show in addition to and in relation to the
existing records is that a sharp increase in orders took place around
the years the mass exterminations were said to have been at maximum
use, which could suggest it was for the extermination process.
Definitely, if this was the case this would be evidence for the
Holocaust story. This would direct the suspicious eye at Germans as
the thiefs out to cover up or any revisionist type that would be out
to discredit the story. 
	
	On the other hand if the records were pretty consistant, showing
maybe an increase around the time of the epidemic of Typhus but not
for the high extermination period, this would be evidence for the
revisionist and the suspicious eye could turn to the beneficieries and
perpetuators of the Holocaust story.
	
	But why would anyone only steal some of the records and not all
of them? Certainly, if they had the access and opportunity to steal
the number said, we could suppose they could have taken them all, but
some were left behind. Possibly someone wanted to make sure there was
some record, at least, to show Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz and
took the rest of the records so no overall record existed for
comparison.




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:52 PDT 1996
Article: 37531 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocuster's Last Stand
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:47:16 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	There are many aspects to the Holocaust story. Numbers, methods,
and locations are the basic ingredients. How many people were
exterminated, how and where.
	This could be listed under two general headings, camps and field.
	The camps would be those places set up or eventually modified
especially for the purpose of mass extermination.
	The field would head all the things said to have happened outside
of the camps as to mass extermination.
	Many of the camps once said to have been extermination centers
have already been deleted from the story, as is the same for many
methods once said to have been used.  
	As for the killings in the field, next to nothing has been found
that would even remotely substantiate the huge numbers said to have
been killed, sometimes as many 40,000 all in one night at a single
location.
	After all this and aside from all that is left, the conflict
between truth and fiction is all focused on Auschwitz. 
	Auschwitz is the soup can at the bottom of the pyramide. The
cornerstone. The focus of the whole story. Center stage. The last
tension in the wind up toy. Once the world sanity comes to recognize
the myths of Auschwitz everything else tumbles, melts and crys.
	All the talk about populations, the 3,000,000 names collected,
all the big tales, all the little tales, all the witnesses, all the
interpretations, all the confirming research, all the books, all the
museums, all the activity of the last fifty years, all will follow.
	Auschwitz, the vital frontier. When it all falls, it will be
Humpty Dumpty time. All the books and all the museums or anything else
will not be able to sustain belief or acceptance in whatever remains.
 
	Only a major revision to the First Amendment, enforced by 
totalitarian authority, can keep the Holocaust story true.
	




 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:52 PDT 1996
Article: 37532 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:47:40 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <319c8369.410454@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Mr.Green, the alt.revisionism resident chemist posted in another
thread a claim that Moran never accounted for low traces or no traces
of cyanide found in barracks in relation to traces found at crematoria
sites. Having lost track of what thread it was in, the response is
being set here, where it should be in the first place. Perhaps
Mr.Green will pop back in and clear things up as to the other post.
	He is absolutely right, "barracks" is not mentioned in the
following paste from the end of the intial post, and care will be
taken to include it in the next post. Nevertheless, the answer to
Mr.Green's claim has been here all along, sans only the word
"barracks".


"The report does not make a stab at explaining why such low
traces were found in fumigation chambers, in some cases being zero,
when we would expect to find high levels. Judging by photographs of
still extent fumigation chambers, the interiors of these facilities
have been protected from weather conditions.
	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
occur."

	Sample Mr.Green's responding technique, first in the thread.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:53 PDT 1996
Article: 37535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:02:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <31989155.316972@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
>
>>	You and Mr.Edeiken should be conciously aware that when your asserting
>>all these deaths you are charging the Germans with the murder. When you
>>charge someone with murder, you better be prepared to show considerable
>>proof - for each victim.
>
>Why don't you fuck off?  Why don't you go back under the rock with the rest
>of your living relatives and stay there?
>
>What would make you happy?  Let's say Mr Edeiken were to list every one of
>his murdered relatives, with color photos of the time and means of death. 
>Let's say you could see the people dying.  Let's say it was on VHS, and you
>could super slow motion it and watch them gag and retch and choke to death. 
>Would that make you happy, you perverted piece of shit?  Could
>you--finally--get your rocks off if you saw that?
>
>Don't ever come to my home town, Moran.  Ever.  Take that any way you like,
>but don't ever come near my town. 

	"My" town. Where is that? I go to any town I like. I take it you
don't have faith in your written word since you slide into the little
threats. Now what town shouldn't I go near, "McFee"?

>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                      



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:54 PDT 1996
Article: 37537 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:14:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <319c8913.1860474@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3195f4ad.4026496@news.pacificnet.net> <4n5r77$ckv@news.enter.net> <31976f57.2531712@news.pacificnet.net> <4n83nh$nq4@moe.cc.emory.edu> <31989155.316972@news.pacificnet.net> <4namqn$o4@moe.cc.emory.edu> <832239248snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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Alexander Baron  wrote:

>In article <4namqn$o4@moe.cc.emory.edu>
>           libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu "william c anderson" writes:
>> : >:    Actually considering Mr.Edeiken's claim that he lost 160
>> : >: relatives in the Holocaust, just considering one side of his family
>> : >: tree
>
>This is a typical tactic, Wiesenthal claimed he lost 77 members, a while ago
>a Jewish author in an article on "anti-Semitism" claimed to have lost 220+
>on the mother's side alone. I don't dispute that many Jews lost relatives in
>the Second World War, but the war claimed probably over 50 million lives, most of
>them in or near Europe, and as there were many Jews in Europe this is one
>reason. Unlike certain people - and contrary to the claims of others - I have
>no intention of mocking any victims, but I don't see what is so special about
>Jewish suffering.
>
	I don't believe all these extraoridanary numbers given. Period.
It fits in with the general nature to blurt out exaggerations. 
	This post started out with a mathematical figuring that used only
one percent of a lower number of total Jews and still comes up with
way out numbers. 
>-- 
>
>Alexander Baron: InFoText Manuscripts
>
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:55 PDT 1996
Article: 37540 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,alt.revisionism,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:28:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <319c8c41.2674078@news.pacificnet.net>
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rnewell@vcn.bc.ca (colin newell) wrote:

>William xxxxxxx  (acumen@compusmart.ab.ca) wrote:
>: Dr.xxxxx ,MP, is completely correct in stating that xxxxx spread 
>: disease.
>
>
>A case in point : The above users account WILL not be renewed at the
>end of this month. All sys-admins take note. You and your ISP can
>be taken to court for distribution of hate related material.
>ISP's are 3rd party publishers and are accountable to a degree
>for the material that they propagate.
>
>There is a real line where free speech crosses into the realm
>of hatred. Heed the wake-up call.
>
>--
>Robert Colin Newell
>http://www.octonet.com/~coffee/
>The Coffee Expert's Web Page

	Who determines what constitutes "hate"? On this group you are
charged with "hate" crimes if you post something with lots of support
or just make negative inference on spoken words.
	You say "There is a real line where free speech crosses the realm
of hatred". Do you have some sort of formula that can prove it?


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:55 PDT 1996
Article: 37576 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!news.challenge.com!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!fdn.fr!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,alt.revisionism,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:28:43 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <319cc54e.9394976@news.pacificnet.net>
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lovebite@io.org (ron) wrote:

>mcbride@ee.ualberta.ca (Darin McBride) wrote:
>>colin newell (rnewell@vcn.bc.ca) wrote:
>>> William xxxxxxx  (acumen@compusmart.ab.ca) wrote:
>
>>> A case in point : The above users account WILL not be renewed at the
>>> end of this month. All sys-admins take note. You and your ISP can
>>> be taken to court for distribution of hate related material.
>>> ISP's are 3rd party publishers and are accountable to a degree
>>> for the material that they propagate.
>
>>That's pure shit.  (It may be true, but it's still reeks of shit.)  My
>>ISP has *no* control over what I post here or anywhere else - they
>>should not bear responsibility for my posts.  I, alone, should bear that
>>responsibility.
>
>I'd first like to state that I abhor censorship except in the case
>where violence and/or bodily harm is threatened or encouraged.
>
>ISP's may or may not be responsible for what their user's post on
>Usenet but they *are* businesses and, as such, are keenly aware of
>publicity, positive or negative.

	The immediate above is the same line used by the ADL and Simon
Wiesenthal Center in their calls for censorship.

>  I know that if I were an ISP owner,
>I'd hate to see my domain name displayed on every one of Willie's
>posts (or similar ones) or be constantly having to deal with
>complaints sent from other Usenet participants.
>
>He should try to find an ISP owned by someone who shares his views.
>I'm sure there's got to be at least one neo-Nazi extremist who runs an
>ISP.
>
>>And there is a real line where we cross over to censorship.  Grosvenor
>>has actually had real points to bring up from time to time, sometimes
>>not even so controversial.
>
>It's not really censorship unless he has no alternative.  Compusmart
>has basically told him that he has a right ot his views but they don't
>want their name associated with him in any way.  He just has to move
>on.  I'm certain we haven't heard the last of him.
>
>
>--
>Ron Ingelevics          In spring, at the end of the day,
>Toronto, Ontario          You should smell like dirt.
>lovebite@io.org                - Margaret Atwood
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:56 PDT 1996
Article: 37577 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:28:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <319cc537.9372621@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <319b2bec.819096@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	Who knows, perhaps someone who had access to the files saw a
decrease in the shipments of Zyklon B to the camp during the time the
mass exterminations were said to have taken place and this is what
gave him/them the incentive to purloin some of the records.
	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 14:35:57 PDT 1996
Article: 37580 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:50:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	I don't believe all these extraoridanary numbers given. Period.
>: It fits in with the general nature to blurt out exaggerations. 
>: 	This post started out with a mathematical figuring that used only
>: one percent of a lower number of total Jews and still comes up with
>: way out numbers. 
>
>That's because--as I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, in a post
>you've refused to respond to--you based your "mathematical figuring"
>on whim, prejudice, and stunning statistical ignorance.  You admit
>that you have no idea how many Jews there are in the world today.  
>You admit that you have no idea how many of these Jews are had 
>relatives in Europe between 1939 and 1945.  You admit that you have
>no idea how many relatives the average such Jew lost in the 
>Holocaust, and you admit that you have no idea how many of these
>victims are shared by two or more contemporary Jews--and yet, based
>solely on Yale's estimate of the number of victims on one side of 
>his family, you conjure a figure out of the air for the expressed
>purpose of calling it ridiculous.  The number of logical fallacies
>in this one ploy is staggering; it could profitably take its place
>in a textbook.  
>
>In other words, Mr. Moran, you're completely saturated with fecal
>matter.  Again.

	In spite of your childish hate finale a very accomodating lower
number of those numbers I have seen on Jewish world population was
given, which is one half of the maximun number of Jews I have seen,
20,000,000, and from this I arbitrarly selected the lowest whole
number, 1%, to use in the figuring.
	So far this thread bears witness to claims made that exceed the
first number given by the doctor, which was 120 relatives lost, and
then someone with 136 to 160 relatives from one side of the family
only, then "hundreds", to "220" on the mothers side only.
	On top of all this, the Yad Vashim holds only 3 million names,
which raises the question of whether or not the above claims are only
half of the numbers or are we to assume that the claims made here
coincidentally account for all.
>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 17 21:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 1089 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.mideast,can.politics
Subject: Re: 960513: Canadians starve Iraqi children, just like Nazis killed Jews
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:53:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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ezundel@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

	
	The war against Iraq was a crime against humanity and U.S.
history.
	It was tantamount to fighting the American Indians with tanks
and machine guns.
	After the first day the Iraqis made no moves to defend
themselves against the attacks because it was thoroughly futile. 
	The U.S. then proceeded to bomb them for thirty days and
thirty nights.
	Now the U.S. is at the vanguard to maintain the stress against
the Iraqi people.
	You will see no war movies coming out of even Hollywood.
	Think about it. Even on the war in Viet Nam where we lost,
Hollywood gleans movies of heroism and victory, but with the war on
Iraq, Israels arch enemy, we will see no war movies.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 18 07:37:00 PDT 1996
Article: 37619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:27:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <319cc516.9339447@news.pacificnet.net>
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <319b3474.3002804@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) writes:
>
>>Subject:	BEHOLD THE LIE
>>From:	tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>>Date:	Thu, 16 May 1996 13:58:18 GMT
>>
>This post is actually pretty good as far as revisionist posts go.  The
>problem, Tom, is that I have already seen so many outrageous things come
>out of your mouth about Jews that it is hard to take this post in good
>faith.
	Before I would respond to this post, I would have to have the
poster come back and say it's not really a spoof and the poster has
posted the words in earnst.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 18 07:37:01 PDT 1996
Article: 37735 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The best of Nizkor
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:37:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 25
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

[snip]

>>	You do have a problem with basic logic, don't you?

Yale, that is only one of his problems!  Others, he actually creates:

>	I have a problem with using fallacies as a means of propaganda.

And this particular problem of his is one that he can't seem to
resolve.  I guess it must be an addiction of his.

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:48 PDT 1996
Article: 37742 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!inquo!bofh.dot!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:25:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <319dcfd1.210197@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3195f4ad.4026496@news.pacificnet.net> <4n5r77$ckv@news.enter.net> <31976f57.2531712@news.pacificnet.net> <4n83nh$nq4@moe.cc.emory.edu> <31989155.316972@news.pacificnet.net> <4namqn$o4@moe.cc.emory.edu> <832239248snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <319c8913.1860474@news.pacificnet.net> <4ni9si$pvj@moe.cc.emory.edu> <319cc6e1.9798015@news.pacificnet.net> <4nil3r$arj@moe.cc.emory.edu>
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>
>You really don't understand this at all, do you, Mr. Moran?
>
>Bill

	No. I could very well have used 2% or 10%. I could have used 13
million or 20,000,000 instead of 10 million. This would be 2,000,000 X
the doctor's 120 = well I don't even want to type the answer it's so
outlandish, as it would be incorrect, since we have to consider
overlapping common relatives between persons.
	My figures are more than fair, founded on probable
underestimates.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:49 PDT 1996
Article: 37743 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!inquo!bofh.dot!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:26:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <319dcfe6.231344@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <318f52d9.5017728@news.pacificnet.net> <3198997f.2407307@news.pacificnet.net> <319b33b2.2808864@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	Heres another one from the future that Mr.Edeiken will post on
5/25/96.

	"On the other hand, there are outright liars like you.  You do
not have "lots of support" for most of your outrageous anti-Semitic
statements; in fact, you have none whatsoever for some of you
allegations.  A typical example is when you attributed acts of a
racist organization known as the KKKK to a "Jewish conspiracy." 
 YFE


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:49 PDT 1996
Article: 37748 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!news.challenge.com!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,alt.revisionism,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:47:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <319dd452.1363842@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3198F740.2AC4@compusmart.ab.ca> <4nfsk5$k05@milo.vcn.bc.ca> <319c8c41.2674078@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Heres one I got e-mail.


X-UIDL: 832425465.000
From: Jwpax@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 22:49:39 -0400
To: tm@pacificnet.net
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Content-Length: 356



"Ever heard of the Criminal Code?"

Now that is a heavy statement. Perhaps the person, Jwpax, will expand
on it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:50 PDT 1996
Article: 37749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:59:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 27
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>Why would anyone with a full set of brains and even a little 
>education...question the Holocaust?
>
>
>Wes Kreider wrote:
>> 
>> Why is it that if you question the Holocaust you get branded a Nazi?
>
>Wes, not everyone who "asks" questions about the Holocaust is branded 
>a NAZI. I SPEAK BEFORE HUNDREDS OF HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE STUDENTS, 
>THE AMERICAN LEGION, THE VFW, CHURCH GROUPS and so on. Some ask good 
>questions, they want the truth, others challange the truth, they are 
>dummies, bigots, antiSemitis but I won't call any one a Nazi, unless I 
>can prove it, as I did during WW-II, and some of them were executed 
>for war crimes. So you see, Wes, it's just not that simple.
>Chuck Ferree

Wes, just go through some of the threads here and check out Chuck's
stuff and see if he is the great libertarian of reason he tries to
present himself as.
	Notice how he says he speaks before "hundreds" of students and
many groups. Evidentally he has his accomodations. But try to follow
him around with any contrary views and the ADL will be there to
condemn you as a Nazi. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:51 PDT 1996
Article: 37751 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 14:03:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <319D4B53.26B@compusmart.ab.ca>, Wes Kreider
> wrote:
>
>>Why is it that if you question the Holocaust you get branded a Nazi?
>
>Actually you don't.  But if you "question the Holocaust" in the face
>of all the incontrovertible evidence available, you do run the risk of
>having civilized, reasonable people dismiss you as an illiterate,
>ignorant (and possibly anti-Semitic/racist) fool.
>
>Hope this helps.

	Well Wes, there you have it.

	 Check out a list of standard things Hilary puts out here under
"The Best of Nizkor". Also check out "The Official Nizkor Code of
Responding" for more insight into the mental state of Hilary and her
co-defenders of the Holocaust.


>hro
>
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:51 PDT 1996
Article: 37760 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 15:42:32 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	Well Wes, there you have it.
>>  
>>  	 Check out a list of standard things Hilary puts out here under
>>  "The Best of Nizkor". Also check out "The Official Nizkor Code of
>>  Responding" for more insight into the mental state of Hilary and her
>>  co-defenders of the Holocaust.
>
>>>>>
>	And for some insight into the mental state of L'il Tommy wait for his next 
>post of "Time for a Showdown."  In this short article there were 16 outright lies.  In 
>one section of that post L'il Tommy took some things done by the Knights of the 
>Klu Klux Klan and told us that they had been done by Jews.  In an addendum to 
>that post L'il Tommy heaped praise on a gang of thugs for "roughing up" a Jewish 
>girl.
>
>	Then, if you want to learn how to be a weasel, check out L'il Tommy's 
>response.
>
>	--YFE
Check out "Another Time for a Showdown". First read the intial post
and then click up all the "tom moran"s to see if Mr.Edeiken is corrupt
or not.

	You say "KKKK" Mr.Edeiken? Wherzat?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:52 PDT 1996
Article: 37771 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:26:33 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

 

Mr. Van Alstine's response:

>And perhpas Moran, responding to Moran, is pulling specious denier
>fantasies out of thin air again? 

	The following material offered by Mr. Van Alstine is a narration
pieced together from various sources. It reminds me of Pressac's stuff
where he has waded through extensive files and selected some and then
put them all together to read like high drama.
	I find that these books are big on bibliographies and use them
extensively through out, often including the bibliography referrences
right at the end of each chapter. Pressac has about 146 of them in one
little chapter of "The Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" almost all
referring to company records and communications of buyer and seller.
	Quite often on looking up the bibliography number we can find
that the notation says nothing to validify its source and often the
bibliography number will come after a certain narration with the
number only relative to a small portion of the narration.
 


>From _The Destruction of the European Jews_, Hillberg; pp.570-571:
>
>"The amounts required by Auschwitz were not large, but they were
>noticable. Almost the whole Auschwitz supply was needed for the gassing of
>people; very little was used for fumigation.[1]

[1]"Testimony of Dr. Charles Sigismund Bendal (Jewish survivor) ..."

 We don't have the rest of his story of how he would know. Nor is the
statement, "Almost the whole Auschwitz supply was needed for the
gassing of people; very little was used for fumigation"
supported by immediate ensuing Hilberg text. In fact it is
contradicted.

>The camp administration
>itself did not buy the gas. The purchaser was Obersturmfu"hrer Gerstein,
>Chief Disinfection Officer in the Office of the Hygenic Chief of the
>Waffen-SS (Mrugowski).[2]

[2] "Gersten account of Degesch, NI-7278. Affidavid by Ho'ss ..."

What ever that means. We'll accept it. "[2]" identifies a purchasing
agent for Auschwitz.

> As a rule, all orders passed throught he hands
>of TESTA, DEGESCH, and Dessau. From Dessau Works, which produced the gas,
>shipments were sent directly to Auschwitz Extermination and Fumigation
>Division (Abteilung Entwesung und Entseuchung).[3]

[3]"Dessau to DEGESCH, April 11, 1944, NI-9913. The man in charge of
gas storage in Auschwitz was OScaf. Klehr. Affidavit by Perry Broad
(SS-man), December 14, 1945, NI-11397." (Ibid. p.570fn.)"
  
TESTA is not explained but DEGESCH is the manufacturer of Zyklon B and
here we are introduced to Dessau which produced the "gas". We might
assume that the Dessau plant produced the "gas" HCN and then shipped
it to DEGESCH where that company incorporated it into pellets for
fumigation purposes. One might think the HCN would be in liquid form
when shipped to DEGESCH and that company would find liquid more
fitting for their purposes, but here we have the word "gas".
	The presented text tells us the "gas" was shipped directly from
Dessau to Auschwitz, which means it did not go through the DEGESCH
process of it being put into pellets, and thus we have "gas" being
shipped directly to Auschwitz. The use of HCN in the direct gas form
is not part of the Holocaust story.
	This bibliography refers to a "Affidavit, Dec. 14, 1945".
Evidentally the gas story was not clarified enough by then as to its
form and introduction which is now pellets.  

>"Notification generally came from Amtsgruppe D, which authorized the
>Auschwitz administration to dispatch a truck to Dessau 'to pick up
>meterials for the Jewish resettlement' (Abholung von Materialien fu"r die
>Judenumsiedlung).[4]

[4] "Liebehenschel to Auscwitz, October 2, 1942, NO-2362." (Ibid.
p.570fn.)"

Whatever this means. Whatever, one truck was dispatched to Dessau "'to
pick up materials for the Jewish resettlement'". I guess we are to
take it to mean the truck went there to pick up "gas" directly from
the producer without it going through the DEGESCH process. Was it in
tanks, or what? Certainly it wouldn't have been in those little tin
Zyklon B cans.
	Recently under another post, Holocaust defenders responded to the
question of, why wasn't HCN used in direct liquid or gas form, by
saying it was too dangerous to ship. But we have to assume it got from
the Dessau producers to the DEGESCH company and here we have it
shipped directly to Auschwitz.
  
	Foreman at Dessau; 'Ach, Fritz, ve haf made all dis HCN and now
ve can't ship it anyvhere because it is too dangerous.'  

> Delevieries to SS installations for fumigation
>purposes were made every six months or so, but Auschwitz required a
>shipment every six weeks because Zyklon deteriorated easily and a supply
>had to be on hand at all times. To discerning eyes that frequency was
>noticeable too. [5]

[5] 5. "Interrogation of Ho"ss, May 14, 1946, NI-36." (Ibid.
p.571fn.)"

Commodant Hoess is the same one who said 3,000,000 Jews were killed at
Auschwitz whereas it is now recognized that this is a exageration as
with other points of his testimony. This witness is considered
unreliable by many, even to some in defense of the Holocaust story.

Foregoing any harping on that point it is obvious that suddenly we go
>from  the exterminating substance in this passage being a gas picked up
directly from the producer of HCN to it being Zyklon, the trade name
for DEGESCH's product.

Here we have it said also that generally the shippments of Zyklon B
were made every six months, but it was also necessary to ship it every
six weeks to Auschwitz because it deteriorated too quickly. Now what
happens at those places that get it just every six months?

>"The delivery system worked dependably until March, 1944, when the Dessau
>Zyklon plant was bombed and heavily damaged.[6]

[6] "DEGESCH business report for 1944, April 23, 1946, NI-9093.
(Ibid. p.571fn.)" 

Okay we can go for this right now. But we will have to keep this in
mind when future discussions on Zyklon B pop up. This might explain
why all those died near the end of the war from Typhus.

> The sudden curtailment of
>the supply came at a time when the SS was making reparations to send
>750,000 Jews to Auschwitz- then the only killing center still in
>existance. A crisis developed. On April 5, 1944, a Mrugowski
>representative wrote to DEGESCH requsting immediate shipment of 5 tons of
>Zyklon B without odor ingrediant; the shipment had already been approved
>by the Armed Forces Main Sanitation Park and was 'urgently needed'
>(dringendst beno"tigt) by the Waffen-SS.[7]

[7]"Bremenburg to Peters, April 5, 1944, NI-9909." (Ibid. p.571fn.)"

Okay here we have one of those examples of commentary with the
footnote referring to only part of it. We should recognize that
bibliography note refers to a letter for more Zyklon B, period, and
has nothing to do with "The sudden curtailment of
the supply came at a time when the SS was making reparations to send
750,000 Jews to Auschwitz- ..."

We should also recognize that the order was made "by the Armed Forces
Main Sanitation Park", different from the chain of ordering given
above.

> A week later Dr. Evers of
>Armed Forces Danitation himself ordered about 2800 kg. and had them
>shipped to Auschwitz. TESTA hurriedly inquired who was to be billed.[8] A
>DEGESCH official became worried that the production of Zyklon without odor
>ingrediant would endanger the firm's monopoly.[9]

[9] "Dr. Heinrich to Amend, June 21, 1944, NI-12110." (Ibid.
p.571fn.)"

"Dr. Heinrich to Amend, ..."? Some kind of letter? Anyway the copy
>from  Hilberg says, "A week later Dr. Evers of ..." The prior date
given here is April 5, 1944 and the "week later" is June 21, 1944.

As to any orders for Zyklon B without odorant we don't have the full
picture here to determine if reasons were included in the order or if
in fact any orders make such requests.

> The High Command of the
>Navy protested that it urgently needed Zyklon for the fumigation of
>ships.[10]

[10]. "O K M (signed Dr. Klebe) to DEGESCH, August 16, 1944, NI-10185.
(Ibid. p.571fn.)"

"The High Command of the Navy protested ..." on August 16, 1944?
"Protested"? Protested what? We don't even know if this letter is
connected to any of the rest. What it does show is the lice problem.
Lice problems at Auschwitz, problems on ships, problems for the Waffen
SS.

>"The SS in the meantime began to be concerned over the possibility that it
>had recieved the Zyklon too early. On May 24 the disinfection officer,
>Obersturmfu"hrer Gerstein, wrote a letter to Dr. Peters inquiring how long
>the shipments would last. When would it deteriorate? So far, it had not
>been used at all. 'On the other hand, under certain circumstances large
>quantities- that is to say, actually the entire quantity -might have to be
>used all at once' (Andererseits werden erhebliche Mengen- d.h. eigentlich
>die ganzen verwahrten Mengen -unter Umsta"nden plo"tzlich beno"tigt.)[11]

[11] "Gerstein to Peters, May 24, 1944, NI-9908." (Ibid. p.571fn.)"

"The SS in the mean time ..." means the purchasing agent for
Auschwitz, Gerstein. Hilberg uses the term "too early" but we don't
know if Gerstein wasn't just asking about the shelf life of Zyklon B.
This would also indicate they had a supply of Zyklon B on hand they
had not been using, even though the Holocasut story has it the mass
extermiantions were high at that time. It could also mean that a new
epidemic was in the making. It did get to be a problem that resulted
in the deaths of many inmates and others. (See post "If no Zyklon then
DDT" 

>"The SS did not have to wait too long. By the end of May transports were
>rolling into Auschwitz, and on August 6 the Referat fu"r
>Scha"dlingsbeka"mpfung der Waffen-SS und Polizei in Auschwitz
>("Anti-vermin Office of the SS and Police in Auschwitz') asked for more
>Zyklon.[12]

Right here we can see how Holocaaust books, Hilberg representing, jump
around. From April to May, from May to August, from August back to
May, from August 26th to then back to August 6th. 

It says nothing about what it was going to be used for.

> The supply was kept up to the very end. The SS did not run out
>of gas.

Did not run out of "gas".

Ah yes, bibliographies. The hangmans noose for the Holocaust story.




>1. "Testimony of Dr. Charles Sigismund Bendal (Jewish survivor) at Trial
>of Bruno Tesch, tr. pp. 28-31, NI-11953. Heinrich Schuster, former
>Austrian intelligence agent imprisoned at Auschwitz, estimated the annual
>consumption of Zyklon for fumigation and freight cars at 1700 kg.
>Affidavit by Schuster, October 13, 1947, NI-11862." (Ibid. p.570fn.)
>
>2. "Gerstein account of DEGESCH, NI-7278. Affidavit by Ho"ss, May 17,
>1946, NI-34. (Ibid. p.570fn.)
>
>3. "Dessau to DEGESCH, April 11, 1944, NI-9913. The man in charge of gas
>storage in Auschwitz was OScaf. Klehr. Affidavit by Perry Broad (SS-man),
>December 14, 1945, NI-11397." (Ibid. p.570fn.)
>
>4. "Liebehenschel to Auscwitz, October 2, 1942, NO-2362." (Ibid. p.570fn.)
>
>5. "Interrogation of Ho"ss, May 14, 1946, NI-36." (Ibid. p.571fn.)
>
>6. "DEGESCH business report for 1944, April 23, 1946, NI-9093." (Ibid. p.571fn.)
>
>7. "Bremenburg to Peters, April 5, 1944, NI-9909." (Ibid. p.571fn.)
>
>8. "Dessau to DEGESCH, April 11, 1944, NI-9913. TESTA to DEGESCH, April
>11, 1944, NI-9096. GEGESCH to TESTA, April 13, 1944, NI-9096" (Ibid.
>p.571fn.)
>
>9. "Dr. Heinrich to Amend, June 21, 1944, NI-12110." (Ibid. p.571fn.)
>
>10. "O K M (signed Dr. Klebe) to DEGESCH, August 16, 1944, NI-10185."
>(Ibid. p.571fn.)
>
>11. "Gerstein to Peters, May 24, 1944, NI-9908." (Ibid. p.571fn.)
>
>12. "Communications from Auschwitz to DEGESCH, enclosed in letter from
>DESESCH to TESTA for booking, August 14, 1944, NI-9095." (Ibid. p.571fn.)
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>posted/e-mailed
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:53 PDT 1996
Article: 37795 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:25:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	This is the third time I posted this article. The first time no
one responded to it, the second time one person responded and this
time was just too much, something had to be said. 
	The summary of the article is, I posted the vital components of
the statement by the Wiesenthal Center which says the current
6,000,000 figure was never contingent on the pre-revised number of
4,000,000 and thus the figure is still 6,000,000. I then listed a
number of publications that say otherwise. 
	On reading the responses so far, I can understand why it was
avoided the first time around.

	Maybe later on we can ask if anyone knows when the Simon
Wiesenthal Center came to find out about the change in numbers at
Auschwitz. 
	Did they have any fore warning? Or did the Polish museum suprise
them with it? There must have been some discussion on the matter
between someone. Did they arrive at the new figures spontaneously, or
was it in the works for a number of years?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:54 PDT 1996
Article: 37797 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 15:38:12 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <319deec8.8137358@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> 
>>  	The summary of the article is, I posted the vital components of
>>  the statement by the Wiesenthal Center which says the current
>>  6,000,000 figure was never contingent on the pre-revised number of
>>  4,000,000 and thus the figure is still 6,000,000. I then listed a
>>  number of publications that say otherwise. 
>>  	On reading the responses so far, I can understand why it was
>>  avoided the first time around.
>
>
>	You mean you fianlly realized that it is drivel?
>  
>>  	Maybe later on we can ask if anyone knows when the Simon
>>  Wiesenthal Center came to find out about the change in numbers at
>>  Auschwitz. 
>>  	Did they have any fore warning? Or did the Polish museum suprise
>>  them with it? There must have been some discussion on the matter
>>  between someone. Did they arrive at the new figures spontaneously, or
>>  was it in the works for a number of years?
>
>	Perhaps they knew, L'il Tommy, becasue they were one of the 
>groups protesting the inaccurate and fraudulent presentation of the history of 
>the Holocaust at Auschwitz for years.  Since those protests were widely 
>reported in newspapers (specifically The New York Times) which you claim to 
>read (I'm sorry, "monitor") every day and a long chapter in a book which you 
>claim to have read ("Chutzpah" by Alan Dershowitz) devoted to the issue, why 
>are you implying something other than the truth.
>
>	--YFE

	What! No "KKKK"?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:54 PDT 1996
Article: 37851 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:54:19 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 8
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Wes Kreider  wrote:

>Why is it that if you question the Holocaust you get branded a Nazi?

Because they have nothing that could convince the world if it was ever
put for international debate. A school yard tactic.
	
The whole thing would go - crash.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:55 PDT 1996
Article: 37852 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:25:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 13
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	And yet another 5/17/96

	"But he fails to take the second step.  That is: do some
research.  L'il Tommy has, of course, not bothered to do so.  That is
how he comes up with such idiocies as attributing the acts of the KKKK
to a Jewish organization.  L'il Tommy, having done no research
projects his indolence and stupidity on other, stating that no else
has either."

YFE


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:56 PDT 1996
Article: 37913 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is a "Holocaust survivor"?
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 12:25:01 GMT
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	Seems about every other time you pick up the N.Y. or L.A. Times
there is something that mentions a "Holocaust survivor". Not having
the resources to check out every publication in the nation I can only
wonder how many more referrences have been made. There seems to be an
aweful lot of them running around.
	What is a "Holocaust survivor"? Could it be someone who escaped
out of German control before the alleged story all started, or someone
who was in one of the camps but made it out alive, or someone who hid
out for the duration?
	
	Maybe the child of a pregnant woman who escaped from German
occupied territory would come under "Holocaust survivor". It would
follow that a child of the child could be considered a "Holocaust
survivor", and so on.

	Of course many Jews departed Europe before and during WW II.
We could asume, going by the Holocaust story, that if they had stayed
they would have been exterminated. From this it could follow that any
of those that left and eventually had children, the children
themselves would be "Holocaust survivors" along with any children they
had and so on.
	Who knows, maybe we will still be reading about surviving
"Holocaust survivors", two, three hundred years down the road. 
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:57 PDT 1996
Article: 37914 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 12:25:38 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>>  jdr@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Jeff Remillard) wrote:
>
>>>  >And by the way Mr. Moran, you're not an anit-Semite because you tell
>>>  >lies about Jews, you tell lies about Jews because you're an
>>>  >anti-Semite.
>>  
>>>  	For someone who just started reading the conference, you have
>>>  joined the class of mind readers very quickly.  How did you
>>>  manage that?
>
>>	When one is reading the rantings of an idiot who consistenly posts an 
>>article stating that the work of the KKKK is part of a "Jewish conspiracy,"  it is 
>>not a hard deduction to make.  Why haven't you?
>
>	Frankly, the only person I have seen make that claim is you.  I
>presume you are trying to repeat it often enough to make it true.

	Its okay Giwer. He's just a goyem-baiter. 


>-----
>
>     It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather 
>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:57 PDT 1996
Article: 37915 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust? More Chuck
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 12:25:59 GMT
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References: <319D4B53.26B@compusmart.ab.ca> <4njr6f$sua@atlas.uniserve.com> <319dd7e2.2275377@news.pacificnet.net> <319DAB08.6A4F@rio.com>
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>Hilary Ostrov refers you, Wes to the most comprehensive sit on the 
>Internet for Holocaust information. All of it documented, proven 
>historical facts, not secind guess like Moran and the others. Check 
>nizkor out, it's all there and it's all true. Chuck Tom Moarn out! Who 
>is this guy? What are his motives for trying to persuade other people 
>that the Holocaust didn't happen? Why fish around for tricks to find a 
>different way to tell his lies? Think about it, Wes. Why woul I lie 
>about what I saw in the war? Why does Moran and the other deniers lie 
>about something they have only read about it revisionistic books. They 
>don't know the facts, Wes, they don't want to deal with the facts, 
>these people are Fascists and they have their own agenda.
>Chuck Ferree
>
	Wes, I would recommend you look into the arguments of both sides.
Maybe if you have a question you could toss it out there and study the
responses.
									Tom Moran



>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>> 
>> >In <319D4B53.26B@compusmart.ab.ca>, Wes Kreider
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>Why is it that if you question the Holocaust you get branded a Nazi?
>> >
>> >Actually you don't.  But if you "question the Holocaust" in the face
>> >of all the incontrovertible evidence available, you do run the risk of
>> >having civilized, reasonable people dismiss you as an illiterate,
>> >ignorant (and possibly anti-Semitic/racist) fool.
>> >
>> >Hope this helps.
>> 
>>         Well Wes, there you have it.
>
>No, Wes, here you don't have it. What you do have is a good 
>suggestion, if you really want an answer to your question check Nizkor 
>site out. It's the only place on the Internet where historical facts 
>are presented and documented as historical facts.
>> 
>>          Check out a list of standard things Hilary puts out here under
>> "The Best of Nizkor". Also check out "The Official Nizkor Code of
>> Responding" for more insight into the mental state of Hilary and her
>> co-defenders of the Holocaust.
>
>Question the mental state of Moran and other sick people who claim 
>that Hitler and the Nazis didn't gas Jews and other innocents. Check 
>out how they Mickey Mouse around taking paint samples from the gas 
>chambers at Auschwitz and after these chips are proven to contain 
>residue of poison gas, they begin thier fancy foot work...tap dancing 
>all over the place.
>Chuck 
>> 
>> >hro
>> >
>> >=======================
>> >Hilary Ostrov
>> >e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>> >http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>> >Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>> >



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:58 PDT 1996
Article: 37916 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The best of Nizkor
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 12:38:42 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


More Nizkor brilliancy:

"Well, no doubt the Giwer-troll needs all the support he can get.  And
with you on his side, surely he will need nothing else."
	
>Even though I think some his posts are junk, the man deserves to be heard,
>ESPECIALLY here.  I will watch his posts, too, and if I catch him screwing
>around I will say so, just to be fair.  And in return, his opposite
>numbers should try to answer his arguments without extended invective. 
>That means everybody, please?

"As difficult as it might be for you to imagine, Mr. Ehrlich,  many
discussions (and facsimiles thereof) which take place in this
newsgroup preceded your gracing us with your presence.  Giwer's
"arguments" _have_ been given their hearing many times over.  It has
been his own ignorant and boorish behaviour which has resulted in
reasonable people choosing to refrain from their customarily
invective-free responses."

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:51:59 PDT 1996
Article: 37917 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: which buildings for gassing
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 12:46:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>	This is of course a minor point but why in the 22 months Rudolph
>Hoess was under arrest did no one think to ask him which
>buildings were used for gassing?
>
>	Why is not his 120 book the definitive reference to answer all
>questions about A-B?
>
	Because the tribunals did not want any details. The more details
given the more there is to raise questions.


>-----
>
>     It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather 
>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:00 PDT 1996
Article: 37920 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 13:00:09 GMT
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Testimony posted by Keren:


	Kurt Franz testifies on his days in Treblinka
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 247-249]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I cannot say how many Jews in total were gassed in Treblinka. On
average each day a large train arrived. Sometimes there were even two.
This however was not so common."


	Here we have this testimony saying on a average day one large
train came into Treblinka, and on rarer occasions two trains, whereas
the testimony covered in the original post has Leleko saying three
trains a day came in on a average.
	Ah yes, eyewitness testimony is the bain of the Holocaust.




In Treblinka I was commander of the Ukrainian guard unit as I had been
in Belzec. In Treblinka as in Belzec the unit consisted of sixty to
eighty men.  The Ukrainians' main task was to man the guard posts
around the camp perimeter.  After the uprising in August 1943 I ran
the camp more or less single-handedly for a month; however, during
that period no gassings were undertaken.

It was during that period that the original camp was demolished.
Everything was leveled off off and lupins were planted...


 
 
-Danny Keren.

-- 
Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.

-Lu Xun.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:00 PDT 1996
Article: 37922 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust?
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 13:05:28 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>In another post, Giwer took me to task demanding that I "prove" 
>everything I say. Problem is when Giwer uses the "Al Gentile rule" 
>(which he made up himself) he doesn't have to prove anything, and 
>that's probably a good thing, at least for him, because not only does 
>he never bother to prove anything he claims to be the truth, it's 
>impossible, because he can't prove anything he says.
>
	Then your saying 'Oh look Giwer doesn't do it, so I'm not going
to do it'? Why don't you show your stuff and set the principle instead
of wailing the school yard cry?
	You say you were a eyewitness? Why don't you give a detailed
account?



>
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4nlbi9$q3t@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> >(Matt Giwer) writes:
>> 
>> >>      Holohuggers also substitute mantras for reason,
>
>
>> >I am going to come out on Matt's side THIS TIME, because the
>> >conventionalists are acting like True Believers with the constant
>> >repetition of the Nizkorite Creed as revealed by the Prophet McVay.
>> >Reminds me of a bunch of kids trying to break a kid who is different by
>> >repeating the same silly rhyme.  Maybe they think that Matt will start to
>> >cry and go home.
>
>They don't give a shit if he cries or not, they just want him to go 
>home or someplace else. He's a pain in the ass, but he loves 
>punishment. What is it they call those kind of people? masochistics or 
>something like that, they love to be whipped with chains, in Giwer's 
>case it's words, he loves to be whipped with words.
>> 
>> >Even though I think some
>
>"SOME " of his post are junk. Where you been all this time, pal?
>
> his posts are junk, the man deserves to be heard,
>> >ESPECIALLY here. 
>
>We hear him, we hear him, we hear him. He has diarria of the mouth!
>
> I will watch his posts, too, and if I catch him screwing
>> >around I will say so, just to be fair.
>
>Well, goodie for you, and I'm gonna watch your posts to see if you do 
>it or not. It does take balls ya know!
>
>  And in return, his opposite
>> >numbers should try to answer his arguments without extended invective.
>> >That means everybody, please?
>
>How come you don't tell Giwer to watch his mouth? He is as bad or 
>worse than anyone posting.
>> 
>>         But they are unable to do so.
>
>He who shoots from the hip, targets nothing worthwhile.
>Chuck
>> 
>> -----
>> 
>>      It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
>> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:01 PDT 1996
Article: 38094 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ERNST ZUNDEL IN NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:52:06 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I hope the material below answers your questions. 

	When reading this report one should keep in mind it is against
the law in Germany to challenge any existing dogma that supports the
Holocaust story.
	Therefore we could see that it may be very hard to follow up with
any investigation into how they arrive at the conclusions and numbers.
	The report does a itemized account on each camp that is said to
have been used for extermination. The numerical count for each camp is
given using the terms, "Altogether more than 150,000 Jews...",
"...altogether about 600,000 Jews ...", ...at least 200,000 ,Jews...",
...about ..." and "Several thousand ...". One numerical referrence
says, "between 120 and 200 people ..." which has a 40% spread.
	Excepting for a few times where the survey mentions gypsies, all
the other counts refer to Jews exclusively. We should wonder what the
account is for the others from various nations that are said to have
been put to death, after all the Holocaust story has it that 10, 11 or
12 million people were exterminated.
	The survey as to Auschwitz says "...more than a million ...". How
this statement corresponds with other figures now given, which are
>from  900,000 down to as low as 600,000 according to sources in the
same Holocaust camp.
	It would be interesting to see what German surveys had to say
about the Auschwitz numbers before the humungous revision.
	The survey says something about gas chambers at Dachau which were
never put into use, and Buchenwald is not mentioned at all. Buchenwald
was the main focus of the Holocaust story just after the war and into
the the early fifties, and now it doesn't even get mentioned. 

	The total for the number of people said to have been exterminated
in the camps comes out to 2,800,000. The number said to have been put
to death in the German occupied East, other than camps, is 900,000.
	This comes out to 3,700,000, leaving 2,300,000 unaccounted for
using the 6,000,000 number. How does the survey deal with this?   	

"The difference between the total of the victims of the gassings cited
in the above mentioned composition and the number of victims of the
operation groups and the total of roughly 6 million victims of the
Nazi persecution of the Jews results from the fact that a very high
percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect
extermination actions such as the method "destruction through work",
bad treatment, under nourishment, epidemics, exhaustion during forced
transportations etc."

	It would be interesting to see how the historians arrived at the
numbers tallied.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam: An argument purporting to
demonstrate a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of
facts and reasons the falsity or inadequecy of which is not readily
discernable.
                         and/or

Argumentum inaccesible: An argument by evidence that is inaccesible to
anyone wanting to verify the course of recogning.

It is against the law to question the current facts of the Holocaust
in Germany, so therefore this post is unverifiable.


>Re Dachau and other camps in Germany: as you will see below,
>not too many people were murdered in their gas chambers. The
>massive death camps, in which very large numbers of people were killed
>in gas chambers, were built by the SS in Nazi-occupied Poland
>(one of the reasons was that Poland had a very large Jewish
>population before the war - about 3 million).
>
>*************************************************************
>
>This file contains a short survey on the dimensions of the Holocaust,
>published by the Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe (Institute for Contemporary 
>History) in Munich, Germany, at 1992. 
>
>The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe is considered an authority on this
>issue in Germany, and has been used as a source of information on the
>Holocaust in various trials of Nazi war criminals there.
>
>Feel free to quote from this letter, under the following conditions:
>
>1) Verbatim quotes only.  
>2) The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe has to be cited as the source.
>
>-Daniel Keren (dk@lems.brown.edu).
>
>
>
>Concerns: The killing of people through gas in the extermination and
>concentrations camps under the Nazi power
>
>The systematic murdering of humans through gas during the Nazi rule
>was introduced for the first time from January 1940 on in the area of
>the "Euthanasia", the extermination of the "lives not worthy to live"
>of the handicapped, mental patients and the terminally ill, and from
>fall 1941 on was continued to a much larger extent by the pogroms of
>the operation groups of the security police and the SD in the seized
>eastern areas with the help of mobile gas vans.
>
>Beginning December of 1941 one proceeded in the camp Kulmhof (Polish
>Chelmno) to use stationary gas vans for the killing of Jews, and from
>the beginning of 1942 in different camps fixed gas chambers were
>built, or already existing buildings were restructured for this
>purpose.
>
>One needs to differentiate by the furnishing of such gas chambers and
>the gassing actions carried out within them between the mass gassings
>of Jews in the extermination camps build for that purpose and the
>gassings of smaller scale in individual, already existing
>concentration camps (whereby patients, seized forced laborers, war
>prisoners, and political prisoners among others were also victims)
>
>The following extermination camps existed:
>
>
>Kulmhof i.e. Chelmno (in the then Wartheland), where between December
>1941 and fall 1942 and again from May until August 1944 gassings by
>means of carbon monoxide from motor exhaust gas took place. Altogether
>more than 150,000 Jews as well as 5000 gypsies have hereby been
>killed.
>
>
>Belzec (in the district Lublin of the then general governments): from
>march to December 1942 in the beginning in three, later in six large
>gas chambers by means of carbon monoxide from motor exhaust gas
>altogether about 600,000 Jews were killed here.
>
>
>Sobibor (district Lublin, general government) received in April 1942
>three, later in September 1942 six gas chambers and until October 1943
>it was "in operation". During this period at least 200,000 Jews have
>been murdered through carbon monoxide gas.
>
>
>Treblinka (district Warschau, general government) from the end of July
>1942 on had three gas chambers and received at the start of September
>1942 furthermore ten larger gas chambers. Up to the dissolution of the
>camp in November 1943 altogether 700,000 Jews were killed here by
>carbon monoxide.
>
>
>Majdanek (district Lublin, general government): The concentration camp
>existing since September 1941 turned into an extermination camp when
>between April 1942 and November 1943 mass shootings took place to
>which 24,000 Jews fell victim. In October 1942 also two, later three
>gas chambers were built.  In the beginning the killings in these were
>done by means of carbon monoxide, soon however one was using Zyklon B
>(a highly poisonous insecticide made from cyan hydrogen). Up until the
>dissolution of the camp in March 1944 about 50,000 Jews have been
>gassed.
>
>
>Auschwitz-Birkenau (in the formerly polish, in 1939 adjoined to the
>"Reich" upper eastern Silesian area, south eastern of Kattowitz): The
>extermination camp in Birkenau, established in the second half of
>1941, was joined to the concentration camp Auschwitz, existing since
>May 1940. From January 1942 on in five gas chambers and from the end
>of June 1943 in four additional large gassing-rooms gassings with
>Zyklon B have been undertaken. Up until November 1944 more than one
>million Jews and at least 4000 gypsies have been murdered by gas.
>
>
>In the following concentration camps gas chambers were established and
>have gone into operation:
>
>
>Mauthausen (upper Austria): From fall 1941 on one gas chamber existed
>which was operated with Zyklon B. In addition, gassings with carbon
>monoxide took place through gas vans which were driven between
>Mauthausen and it's side-camp Gusen. Altogether more than 4000 have
>been killed here through gas.
>
>Neuengamme (southeastern of Hamburg): From fall of 1942 on gassings
>with Zyklon B were undertaken here in a "Bunker" prepared for that,
>about 450 victims.
> 
>Sachsenhausen (Province Brandenburg, north of Berlin) received mid
>March 1943 a gas chamber which was operated with Zyklon B. Several
>thousand people fell victim to the gassings, a more specific number
>cannot be determined.
>
>Natzweiler (by Struthof, Elsass): From August 1943 to August 1944 a
>gas chamber existed here in which between 120 and 200 people were
>killed through Zyklon B in order to be able to dissect their skeletons
>for the Anatomica Institute of University of Strassburg.  Back then
>this institute was managed by a chief company commander of SS Prof.
>Dr. August Hirt.
>
>Stutthof (east of Danzig) had from June 1944 on one gas chamber in
>which more than 1000 were killed by Zyklon B.
>
>Ravensbruck (Bradenburg, north of Berlin): Here still in January 1945
>a gas chamber was established; the number of the people killed in it
>was at least 2300.
>
>Dachau (Upper Bavaria, northeast of Munich): During the establishment
>of a new house of cremation in 1942 also a gas chamber was established
>in it in which in connection with the medical experiments of the chief
>company commander of SS Dr. Rascher also a few experimental gassings
>were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed. (On that see
>Gunther Kimmel: The Concentration Camp Dachau. A study of the Nazi
>crimes of violence in Bavaria in the NS-time II, edited by Martin
>Broszat and Elke Froehlich, Munich, R. Oldenburg Press, 1979, P. 391.)
>Larger gassing operations have not taken place in Dachau.
>
>
>
>The victims of the operation groups of the security service and the SD
>behind the German frontier in the Russia-campaign were to the by far
>largest part Jews. Their number is estimated to be at least 900,000.
>
>The difference between the total of the victims of the gassings cited
>in the above mentioned composition and the number of victims of the
>operation groups and the total of roughly 6 million victims of the
>Nazi persecution of the Jews results from the fact that a very high
>percentage of the victims have lost their lives through indirect
>extermination actions such as the method "destruction through work",
>bad treatment, under nourishment, epidemics, exhaustion during forced
>transportations etc.
>
>About 120,000 people were killed through the Nazi
>"Euthanasia"-actions.
>
>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:02 PDT 1996
Article: 38095 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:52:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>	"Perhaps they knew, L'il Tommy, becasue they were one of the 
>groups protesting the inaccurate and fraudulent presentation of the history of 
>the Holocaust at Auschwitz for years.  Since those protests were widely 
>reported in newspapers (specifically The New York Times) which you claim to 
>read (I'm sorry, "monitor") every day and a long chapter in a book which you 
>claim to have read ("Chutzpah" by Alan Dershowitz) devoted to the issue, why 
>are you implying something other than the truth."
>
>	--YFE

	You say the book "Chutzpah" has a long chapter on Jewish groups
who were "protesting" the old Auschwitz numbers, including the Simon
Wiesenthal Center?
	You say these protest were "widely reported"?

	Why don't you give a little review of this chutzpah from the book
"Chutzpah", that likens "chutzpah" to "A little boy who murders his
parents and then pleads to the court for mercy on the grounds he's a
orphan"?

	The only things the Simon Wiesenthal Center protests are those
things that challenge it's goals, the corruption of the world. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:03 PDT 1996
Article: 38098 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:29:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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jdr@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Jeff Remillard) wrote:

>In article <319b3474.3002804@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>Apparently Tom Moran couldn't come up with any new lies today, so he's
>telling old ones.  Lies that have been refuted many times on this
>newsgroup.  
>
>[most of this stuff we've all seen before snipped]
>
>>	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
>>daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
>>death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
>>Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
>>those who have had any experience on the subject. 
>
>This is something that bothered me about this post the last time I
>read it.  Before I started reading a.r, I had rudimentary knowledge
>about the Holcaust: 6 million Jews were killed, many others were
>killed as well, there were many camps were these murders were done,
>and Auschwitz was the most notorious of these camps.  I had no idea
>how many people were actually killed at Auschwitz.  The only number I
>heard was 6 million. So, where in the daily press have you seen the 4
>million number bandied about?  I mean specifically: publication name,
>date, article name and page.  If you say "check the LA Times archives"
>I'm going to have to assume you're making this up as you go along.
>Now that I have "experience on the subject" I know what the facts are
>concerning the Auschwitz numbers.  You've been told the facts, too,
>but you continue to harp on this like a broken record.
>
>>I would invite
>>anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
>>number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
>>have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
>>to see how wide spread the figures are.
>
>Conduct your own unscientific research!  I've got to admit though,
>your "research" "proving" the number of dead is exagerated based on
>how many relatives people lost would be hilarious if it weren't so
>morbidly insulting.
>
>And by the way Mr. Moran, you're not an anit-Semite because you tell
>lies about Jews, you tell lies about Jews because you're an
>anti-Semite.
>
>-- 
>Jeff Remillard
>jdr@wpi.edu
>jdr@tfn.com


	You can assume what you like. I have seen the numbers over the
years. I don't have to post every date or article. That is why I left
it up any reader to do their own poll. 
	I could have just as well left it out, since the list of
contraries is presented. What do you have to say about those sources?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:03 PDT 1996
Article: 38115 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*ws hid scrolls for 40 years
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:00:48 GMT
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EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>1994 ?? Los Angeles
>SCROLLS REFER TO DEATH OF MESSIAH
>Associated Press
>
>Newly released text from the Dead Sea Scrolls mentions the execution of a 
>Messiahlike leader, suggesting that some ancient j*ws shared the 
>Christian concept of the slaying of a Messiah, scholars said yesterday.
>
>One fragment contains 5 lines of text that describes a "leader of the 
>community" being "put to death" and mentions "piercings" or "wouunds," 
>said Robert EISENMAN, a professor of Middle East religions at Calif. St. 
>University, Long Beach.
>
>The text also uses Messiah-related terms such as "the staff, " "the 
>branch of David" and the "Root of Jesse," he said. eisenman helped 
>translate the scroll fragments.
>
>Its language is close to that in the Old Testament Book of Isaiah, which 
>says, "for our sins he was wounded." Many Christians use Isaiah's 
>prophecies to aid their understanding of Jesus. Eisenman didn't know if 
>the leader mentioned in the text was Jesus. He said the text has far 
>reaching significance because it shows the scrolls' writers and early 
>Christians shared similar Messianic ideas. He said the text supports his 
>controversial theory that the most recent scrolls were written by j*ws 
>who helped form early christianity. Many other scholars believe the 
>scrolls were written by an ascetic j*wish cult called Essenes. "We've 
>known for a long time there are connections between ideas contained in 
>the scrolls and Christianity, however, this particular idea, that of a 
>dying Messiah, is new and explosive, " said Michael WISE, a Univ. of 
>Chicago professor of Aramaic, the language of Jesus.
>
>Wise also helped translate the fragments. He said it was always thought 
>that j*ws at the time of Jesus expected a Messiah who would restore 
>Israel to dominance politically. yet the released text shows that the 
>j*wish scroll writers had the idea of a Messiah who would suffer and die. 
>"That shows this was not an idea unique to Christianity", he said, adding 
>, "Anything which potentially impugns the uniqueness of the Christian 
>message can be seen by some people as invalidating it or weakening it.
>
>The scrolls contain the oldest known copies of the Old Testament and 
>numerous other writings. Scholars believe they were written by a j*wish 
>sect sometime between 200 BC and 50 AD. The 800 scrolls, most in 
>fragments, were found in caves near the Dead Sea in the late 1940s and 
>early '50s and  were stored in Jerusalem. They contain priceless 
>information about the period that spawned Christianity. ACCESS TO THE 
>SCROLLS WAS CONTROLLED BY JORDANIAN AND LATER ISRAELI AUSPICES FOR 40 
>YEARS. Criticism was that the j*ws were afraid to release the information 
>and restricted access to only j*wish scholars, who were sluggish , if not 
>deceitful , in publishing translations.
>The Huntington Library in San Marino broke the monopoly in September by 
>giving qualified scholars free access to its 3,000 photographs of scroll 
>fragments. Eisenman ws the first granted such access.
>
>If the translation is correct, it "tightens the connection tremendously 
>between the early Christians and the people who wrote the scrolls, said 
>James Tabor, a Univ of No Carolina associate Prof. of Christian Origins 
>and ancient Judaism. 
>
>"I doubt if one would call it revolutionary" wrote Eugene Ulrich, chief 
>editor of the scrolls and theology Prof.  of Notre Dame. He, too, had 
>early access to the scrolls. Ulrich said it will be published soon and 
>some text has already been offered in Madrid by  Emile Puesh, another 
>editor.
>
>Eisenman and Tabor said the scrolls could have been published years ago 
>and now they want to play it down because it could damage traditional 
>religious views. Ulrich denied the text has been withheld.
>

	The reason the Jews kept a lid on the contents of the Dead Sea
Scrolls is because they are an embarrassment. If there was anything
profound in them, copies would have been released years ago. 
	The Jews are engaged in wild way out interpretations to give them
a heavy worth, such as Neal Silberman's book and a number of others.
The only book I have seen of worth and scholastic credibility is one
done by John Allegro the lead member from England to help decipher the
text. A full 2/3 of the book is bibliography containing the special
notations scholars use to translate ancient text and was aimed at the
scholar. 
	Allegro's conclusions were that the scrolls are loaded with
sexual referrences, that the writer(s) were of a fertility cult that
centered around sexual rituals under the influence of the pschedelic
mushroom Amaritas muscharia.
	Naturally Allegro got on the shit list for this address as did
another American scolar who ended up saying a number of negatives
about the Israelis and their religion after being there for a number
of years. He was pronounced insane.
	Just a few years ago the Jews went crazy over the release of the
entire copies of the scrolls by the Huntington Library in California.
Much crying and gnashing of teeth took place, including the usual
charges of "anti-Semitic" and threats of law suits.
	The scrolls are nothing if not an indictment against mentality of
those who wrote them by present standards and this is why the Jews did
not want them unleashed for public, independant scrutiny, preferring
instead to write books that hype them into being something more than
they are.
	"The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross", by John 
Allegro. Two thirds of the book aimed at the scholar with the special
notations. An objective work, detailed, itemized. 


>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:04 PDT 1996
Article: 38116 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:49:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4nhpab$br2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) said:
>
>>>Don't ever come to my home town, Moran.  Ever.  Take that any way you
>>like,
>>>but don't ever come near my town. 
>>>
>>>--
>>>Gord McFee
>>>
>
>>Uh ... Don't you think you better tell him where that is?
>
>Nope--I would rather keep him guessing.
>
	McFeeble, how would one know what town to stay away from if you
don't say?

	


>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                      



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:05 PDT 1996
Article: 38151 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:10:16 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 37
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4ngbtg$2n9u@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
>McFee) writes:
>
>>
>>Don't ever come to my home town, Moran.  Ever.  Take that any way you
>like,
>>but don't ever come near my town. 
>>
>>--
>>Gord McFee
>>
>
>Uh ... Don't you think you better tell him where that is?
>
>On a lighter note, the many many posts on the autoerotism of Christ has
>reminded me of a wonderful book that I read about 30 years ago entitled
>"The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" by John M. Allegro, who argued that JC
>was lead singer in a mushroom munching psychedelic band (sort of), and who
>set forth the fascinating ur-Aramaic etymology of "Messiah" as meaning
>"smeared with semen"!! That certainly puts a different spin on the
>expression, "blow s.o. to Kingdom Come"   :)
>
	John Allegro was the lead member of a team from England sent to
Israel to study the Dead Sea Scrolls. He was expert in ancient Greek,
Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic and could read cuniform.
	A full two thirds of his book was bibliography of notations used
by the field and aimed at the scholar.
	His overall conclusions were that the writers of the Dead Sea
Scrolls were a fertility cult that ate the mushroon Amarillas
Muscaria, and that the scrolls are loaded with sexual words.
	Naturally he got on the shit list for this, but in the end run
his book was aimed at the scholar and he put his notations where his
mouth is.   
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:05 PDT 1996
Article: 38159 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:17:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>william c anderson (libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
>
>: : : In other words, your theory is based on... well, nothing.  You have
>: : : no idea how many Jews there are in the world.  You have no idea how
>: : : many of these Jews are descended from European families.  You have
>: : : no idea how many relatives the average European Jew lost in the 
>: : : holocaust, and you have no idea how many of these Jews share common
>: : : relatives.  Back to the drawing board for you, eh, Tom?
>: : 
>: : What, no Moran?
>: 
>: What, no Moran?
>
>What, no Moran?
	Your right I have no idea, exactly. Neither do you. All you have
is what you want to believe. One percent of 10,000,000 X 120 =
12,000,000. Try something like that.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:06 PDT 1996
Article: 38164 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust (for Moran)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:34:40 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>TOMMY OLD BUDDY, OLD PAL...THIS HAS BEEN POSTED ON THIS SITE SO MANY 
>TIMES, THE "GOOD GUYS" HOLLER "ENOUGH ALL READY!"  :-)
>This just for you, Tommy.
>
>Holocaust Experiences
>By
>Charles V. Ferree
>Our unit had moved from France into Germany near Frankfurt. We 
>continued to fly combat missions from that location until the war 
>ended in May of 1945.
>Ten of us were assigned to fly ranking officers to Nazi concentration 
>camps being liberated. The rumors became reality as three L-5 
>Observation planes were dispatched to Buchenwald. Our passengers, 
>medical officers, military police, legal and intelligence officers 
>were to assess the situation and report to General Eisenhower.

	Chuck, I have read this before. I'll take your word for it you
were there. 
	It carries a few similarities to a report by Edward R. Murrow who
was there at Buchenwald the day of liberation. His account is a bit
different from yours as to bodies laying around. You say they were
everywhere and Murrow's says there was a stack and most of the inmates
were inside on cots.
	As I mentioned to you once before, Buchenwald was, at one time
the center of attention as a main extermination camp and now it isn't
recognized as one at all.
	Nor was the camp an exclusive place for Jews. It was basically a
place for many different nationalities including German criminals, or
what the Nazis saw as criminals and Jews made up a small percentage.
	Your post does absolutely nothing to support the main contention
of the Holocaust story. All the people that were dead or dieing was
mostly from Typhus. The photographs shown extensively to the world as
evidence of a extermination poilcy were those of the bodies in the
excavations at Buchenwald, all put there by the liberators which you
are aware of.
	What you saw was a horrible scene, and that is regretful for your
psyche, but it is not proof of any mass extermination. Evidentally you
harbor these scenes and use them to accept all else.
	There must have been a time when you thought Buchenwald and
Dachau were extermination camps and either you still believe it or you
somewhere along the line came to find out they weren't and I would be
interested in hearing what your reactions and emotions were when you
found out. 
	
> After we landed on a makeshift strip, we were taken into the first 
>Nazi concentration camp liberated by American troops. As we neared 
>Buchenwald, the odors became nauseating. I commented to the driver 
>about this, and he said ³You ainıt seen nothing yet. Thereıs dead 
>bodies all over the place, the clean-up hasnıt even started.²
>He took me on a tour of Buchenwald. I canıt begin to describe the 
>heinous scene. The officials went about their business for 2-3 days, 
>and we flew back to Frankfurt. I felt more anger against Germans that 
>I thought possible. 
>About April 29th. another flight went to Munich. We reached the area, 
>and were informed by radio not to attempt landing, fighting was still 
>in progress. We headed toward the town of Dachau the site of the 
>second Nazi camp to be liberated. We circled the area seeking a safe 
>spot to land, requesting ground troops to clear a nearby road of rocks 
>and other debris. We made tricky and bumpy landings on the road. 
>Command cars and jeeps  took us to Dachau. 
>I thought Buchenwald had been bad, Dachau was much worse. The camp had 
>been liberated that morning, and as we drew near the gates we heard 
>sporadic gunfire. Our driver warned us to be careful, some inmates had 
>weapons and only a few hours ago, troops had a shoot-out with SS 
>guards. We entered the gates, met by a Major General who disappeared 
>with our passengers. The smell burned my nostrils and permeated my 
>pores. Every direction I looked, I saw bodies, and inmates running 
>around. Soldiers gathered in groups, bayonets fixed on their rifles. 
>Chaos like I had never seen before. We observed as crazed inmates beat 
>and clubbed their former tormentors to death. 
>The jeep driver asked me if I wanted to look around. He wore a 
>shoulder patch from the 45th. Infantry Division, an outfit I had 
>trained with in 1940-41. We drove toward a long freight train, he told 
>me eighty-six cars. Medics were checking the cars, open coal cars, 
>some regular cars with locked doors. Frost still covered the ground, 
>and the hundreds of skeletal, naked corpses piled into every car and 
>overflowing onto the tracks. An unimaginable sight. Later I learned 
>each car held fifty to eighty prisoners and had been shuttled all over 
>trying to stay away from our troops. The prisoners starved, or froze 
>or perished from disease 
>We drove toward the main camp, dead and dying prisoners piled in heaps 
>near the crematorium. Soldiers sorted through the bodies, trying to 
>locate the living. It didnıt matter, they all died anyway.
>We turned a corner just as machine-gun fire erupted nearby. The driver 
>stopped and we could see Nazi guards lined up against a building being 
>cut down by the guns. I have no idea how many Nazis died, but the 
>firing went on for thirty or more minutes.
>Before the end of May, I had flown to five Nazi camps, Bergen-Belsen 
>twice. Twenty-six thousand had died between trips. Anne Frank and her 
>sister were among the dead.
> Most of us have some idea of the horrors the Nazis perpetrated on the 
>European Jews. No one knows how many humans suffered and died at the 
>hands of these ³ordinary men.² We do know millions were murdered by 
>the Nazis, and millions more deaths were caused in ways too cruel to 
>imagine.
>After Dachau, I burned my uniform in a vain attempt to rid myself of 
>the death smell. Itıs still with me, fifty years later. Only recently 
>have I began talking about the Holocaust. One reason is I read that as 
>many as seventeen percent of Americans recently polled express some 
>doubts that it happened at all. The greatest tragedy in modern times. 
>And some doubt it happened. Others compare the Holocaust with their 
>special interest, to fight this or that cause. Political groups even 
>compare each other to Nazis, which I find ridiculous. 
>My wife and I have returned to Europe several times. We visit friends 
>in Austria and Germany. I have revisited some of the Nazi death camps. 
>Itıs an emotional experience for me. Some European friends apologize 
>for their countryıs role in WW-II, others argue that the Jews brought 
>it all on. 
>There must be a lesson here someplace. I wish I could find it.
>
>***              ***               ***              ***              
>***
>
>Some other things which happened while in Dachau: I tried to give a 
>sick inmate some food, and a cigarette. He gobbled up the food, and 
>vomited it all right back. Later We were told not to try to feed these 
>poor souls, even though they were starved. This man was so weak, that 
>when I placed a lit cigarette in his mouth, he couldnıt even drag on 
>it. Just looked at me, tears running down his cheeks. I hadnıt turned 
>21 years old yet (6-30-24).
>When the three GIs, a Lt. and two Sgts. set up the machine guns, one 
>on the ground and one on a roof, other troops had lined up the 
>Germans, some SS and some regular soldiers. They started firing both 
>machine guns, mowing down 40-50 Germans at a time. Not all died 
>instantly, so a couple of healthy looking inmates were handed .45s and 
>they climbed over the wall and finished off those still alive with a 
>shot to the head. Then another bunch were brought out and the action 
>was repeated. I was about 100 ft. away watching all this, peeking over 
>a wall. A one star general tried to stop the slaughter, but the Lt. 
>told him to get the hell away. which he did in his command car. The 
>shooting went on for about 1/2 hour, and I was scared, because these 
>guys just went nuts. I remember being mad as hell, with total contempt 
>for the Germans, but I also felt what our guys did was wrong. None of 
>our soldiers were punished as far as I know. Iıve encountered several 
>other witness and liberators, who happened to be at Dachau on that 
>day, they all saw part of this. One man took pictures, but his camera 
>was confiscated before we left. Another guy who was there did get out 
>with pictures which Iıve seen. A few were published by a surgeon from 
>the 45th. Division in his book Called ³The Avengers.² Canıt remember 
>his name. Thereıs a lot more to tell, and as I said, I have never 
>mentioned this to anyone, not even my wife of 53 years. At our 
>military reunions, we donıt discuss the Holocaust. Just tell war 
>stories about fighter missions, which is what I did most of the time. 
>Without having become involved with the Anne Frank Society, I probably 
>never would have discussed that stuff. Most of us just wanted to 
>forget about it. Now I have new friends, survivors, other witnesses 
>and have been on a speakers panel since 1992. Mostly speaking to 
>schools and churches, service clubs etc.
>Hope to hear from you...feedback.
>Chuck Ferree



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:07 PDT 1996
Article: 38345 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:52:21 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  >	"Perhaps they knew, L'il Tommy, becasue they were one of the 
>>  >groups protesting the inaccurate and fraudulent presentation of the history of 
>>  >the Holocaust at Auschwitz for years.  Since those protests were widely 
>>  >reported in newspapers (specifically The New York Times) which you claim to 
>>  >read (I'm sorry, "monitor") every day and a long chapter in a book which you 
>>  >claim to have read ("Chutzpah" by Alan Dershowitz) devoted to the issue, 
>why 
>>  >are you implying something other than the truth."
>
>>  	You say the book "Chutzpah" has a long chapter on Jewish groups
>>  who were "protesting" the old Auschwitz numbers, including the Simon
>>  Wiesenthal Center?
>
>	It certainly does.
>
>>  	You say these protest were "widely reported"?
>
>	They certainly were.
>
	Is this it? Or do you plan on posting a review of this from the
book "Chutzpah".

	Your original claim: "Perhaps they knew, L'il Tommy, becasue they
were one of the groups protesting the inaccurate and fraudulent
presentation of the history of the Holocaust at Auschwitz for years.
Since those protests were widely reported in newspapers (specifically
The New York Times) which you claim to read (I'm sorry, "monitor")
every day and a long chapter in a book which you claim to have read
("Chutzpah" by Alan Dershowitz) devoted to the issue."

	Now I take it you have a chapter number from "Chutzpah" at the
least and you also have the dates and article titles in the N.Y.
Times? 

  
>>  	Why don't you give a little review of this chutzpah from the book
>>  "Chutzpah", that likens "chutzpah" to "A little boy who murders his
>>  parents and then pleads to the court for mercy on the grounds he's a
>>  orphan"?
>
>	Sure.  Taken as a whole they say L'il Tommy was lying again as they 
>contradict every factual statement he made about the plaque at Auschwitz.	

	Oh, now you are saying maybe the book "Chutzpah" doesn't have a
whole chapter on activities of Jewish organizations to correct any
erroneous figures on Auschwitz? 

  
>>  	The only things the Simon Wiesenthal Center protests are those
>>  things that challenge it's goals, the corruption of the world. 
>
>	Paranoia getting to you, L'il Tommy?  First you tell us that the KKKK is 
>really part of a Jewish conspiracy and now the SWC is plotting to corrupt the 
>world.  Soon you'll be telling us the *real* meaning of that little "u" in the circle.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:08 PDT 1996
Article: 38348 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:59:47 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	And yet another by YFE, 5/21/96;

	"Paranoia getting to you, L'il Tommy?  First you tell us that the
KKKK is really part of a Jewish conspiracy and now the SWC is plotting
to corrupt the world.  Soon you'll be telling us the *real* meaning of
that little "u" in the circle."

YFE


	What with all the brethren glue you have out here, YFE, why
aren't they out here helping you out as is the norm.
	When you say Moran wrote something about the "KKK" and refuse to
or can't show where,  are you directing this to the whole group and
your brethren allies?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:08 PDT 1996
Article: 38350 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's attitude on Jews (repost)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:23:06 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>Sorry to be repeating myself, but I've been out of town.  Has Mr. Moran 
>replied to this message yet? If not, perhaps he'd like to address my 
>questions...
>
>On Tue, 14 May 1996, I wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 May 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> > 					
>> > 	Moran knows quite a few Jews.
>> > 
>> > Some of them he really likes.
>> > Some of them he likes a little.
>> > Some of them he doesn't like.
>> > And some of them really doesn't like.
>> 
>> I wonder, then, why you have referred to "the Jews" as "parasitical"?  
>> Sounds like a generalization to me...
>> 
>> And since you are the one who brought up the topic of Jews you know 
>> personally, I wonder how your Jewish daughter-in-law's family feels about 
>> your position on the historicity of the Holocaust?  Have you shared your 
>> convictions with them at family get-togethers, Mr. Moran?  
>> 
>> You might ask your daughter-in-law's family whether they lost any 
>> relatives in Europe during the Holocaust, and then suggest to them that 
>> it would be "fun" to get a full accounting of any losses they might 
>> mention. 
>
>Still waiting for a reply from the learned, impartial Tom Moran.

	I gave you a personal thing once and that's it. As stated before.
No one has to come out and say anything about his personal life, and
no one has to respond to demands for more.
	You better find something else to focus on. Try "Testimonial
Fiction".





>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"We are now living in an era where the wall between news and 
>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage 
>in David Crosby's septum."
>	--Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:09 PDT 1996
Article: 38370 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Legacy of the Living
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:37:27 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>LEGACY OF THE LIVING
>Chuck Ferree
>
>Many people who participate in discussions??? On Alt. Rev work very 
>hard to make their points. Others just play silly games, and mock 
>diminutive details for what seems to me, ³a hobby² to quote Giwer.
>The Holocaust isnıt a ³hobby² to anyone with sensitivity. The 
>Holocaust is about one of the most heartbreaking catastrophes which 
>happened in modern times. 
>
>Many of the arguments are about minutia: gas chambers at Dachau, even 
>gas chambers at Auschwitz, which is really nothing to debate, question 
>or discuss. However some of the ³deniers² insist on keeping the 
>debates going, and they do it not by offering any new information, or 
>even questioning proven data. They just want to question and argue 
>about matters, which for the most part have been settled long ago. 
>Some deniers, make no sense at all. Their forte is short, sarcastic, 
>one liners having nothing to do with the subject. Lies abound at Alt. 
>Rev. Some lies are out of ignorance, many just to throw barbs at 
>someone who is trying to make a little sense out of all this. A great 
>deal of hostility is exchanged at this site, which may vent a spleen 
>or two, but the bottom line is, nothing is accomplished or changed.
>There are serious offenders, who feel they have a right to say 
>anything that pops into their mind. If they only realized how ignorant 
>this approach makes them appear to others.
>This is a very serious topic, and to be taken as lightly as some 
>participants seem to do, makes a mockery of the tragic events which we 
>all know happened. Maybe some of the numbers are defective now. Maybe 
>some testimony was fallacious. People question documented confessions 
>by Nazis and SS criminals. Others question the veracity of 
>eyewitnesses, both Holocaust survivors or victims of the Nazi 
>persecution as well as American Military men who happened to be 
>³Witness-Liberators.²
>How can people who know only what they have read from various books, 
>argue points with survivors who went through it all, or 
>witnesses-Liberators, who actually spent time in one camp or many Nazi 
>concentration camps. How can a person 35 years old, or another 51 
>years old, who were not born until after the war ended, or were babes 
>in arms while others were fighting for their cause, or at least served 
>in the area where the war in Europe took place? How can these people 
>who claim others tell falsehoods, proceed to lie, time after time and 
>admit what they say is nothing but lies, and make like itıs only a 
>hobby, or a game to play. 
>Some say ³fools rush in, where wisemen fear to tread.² I believe it 
>takes real courage to present serious points regarding what took place 
>during World War Two. For those who treat the Holocaust as a joke, 
>treat others like fools, and waste a lot of valuable time with their 
>nonsense, I say shame on them. 
>The other thing thatıs missing in any discussions which I have seen, 
>is what happened to Jewish people before they were up-rooted from 
>their lives and homes, and schools and churches and everything which 
>had seemed normal up until Hitler decided to change German laws, 
>making being a Jew a crime, punishable by whatever came to mind of 
>Nazi leaders, or SS stooges How could ordinary German men, shoot 
>people who were former neighbors, or total strangers, by the 
>thousands?  Even though this is historical factual history, there are 
>those who simply say, ³well it didnıt happen.² Or quote from some book 
>written by another person who witnessed nothing, just did a little 
>research and wrote a book of opinions. 
>From my point of view, we shouldnıt have to put up with being labeled 
>³holohuggers.² Or for that matter any insults whatever. Those who 
>insist on ³playing dirty² in a serious matter such as we discuss on 
>Alt. Rev. should be ignored or even better, shunned by serious minded 
>people.
>Chuck Ferree

	A sales talk without naming or showing the product.

Chuck, there is a lot of nonsense taking place, from both sides of the
Holocasut debate, but you can't see the full picture.

Chuck, pick up a few basic 'Introduction to ...' books on any science
and read what is usually there in the beginning, a statement on the
"Scientific Method".

Emotional driven conclusions can't persevere. 




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:10 PDT 1996
Article: 38400 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust (for Moran)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:15:30 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>> 
>> >TOMMY OLD BUDDY, OLD PAL...THIS HAS BEEN POSTED ON THIS SITE SO MANY
>> >TIMES, THE "GOOD GUYS" HOLLER "ENOUGH ALL READY!"  :-)
>> >This just for you, Tommy.
>> >
>> >Holocaust Experiences
>> >By
>> >Charles V. Ferree
>> >Our unit had moved from France into Germany near Frankfurt. We
>> >continued to fly combat missions from that location until the war
>> >ended in May of 1945.
>> >Ten of us were assigned to fly ranking officers to Nazi concentration
>> >camps being liberated. The rumors became reality as three L-5
>> >Observation planes were dispatched to Buchenwald. Our passengers,
>> >medical officers, military police, legal and intelligence officers
>> >were to assess the situation and report to General Eisenhower.
>> 
>>         Chuck, I have read this before. I'll take your word for it you
>> were there.
>
>Listen up, Tom and I'm serious...you asked me to post my personal 
>experieices with the camps and even though all this has been done 
>before, I did it again for you. Now you start picking it apart 
>infering that Edward R. Morrow gave me the idea. This is an insult, 
>Tom, and you ought to give some thought to where I'm coming from as 
>opposed to where you, Giwer, Swiger and other deniers are coming from. 

	Actually I had no intent of implying you stole anything from
Murrows'. I did point out there seemed to be some difference in your
accounts of bodies.

>You guys only know what you've read in revisionist books, you never 
>set foot in the camps, I did, what I say I witnesses, I witnessed, and 
>some asshole who is trolling around taking pot shops at everyone with 
>credibility, people who know personally what happened and were on the 
>sites, with personal contacts with inmates, Nazis, SS troopers, and 
>the like sure don't need to hear from guys like you bunch of twerps, 
>whose forte is cheap shot one liners, and casting aspersions, because 
>you don't want to believe it happened the way it really happened. 
>>         
	See above.
>
>
>>         What you saw was a horrible scene, and that is regretful for your
>> psyche, but it is not proof of any mass extermination.
>
>There was mass extermination and you know it. You didn't read anything 
>in my story about mass extermination, even  though the Nazis carried 
>out a successful mass extermination plan. Another thing, Moran, you 
>keep harping about proof, yet you and Giwer, Swiger et al, never 
>bother to try and prove anything you claim, you just question the 
>credibility of others, who know much more about this subject than all 
>of the three of you put together.

	Exactly. Your post says nothing about mass exterminations. As I
recognized, you saw terrible things. You did not see the results of
mass extermination though. 
	As to the rest of the paragraph you should have been a little
more graceful. It is just a railing, nothing more.


> Evidentally you
>> harbor these scenes and use them to accept all else.
>
>Quit playing professional "shrink" for God's sake, man. This is really 
>stupid. It's " evidentally this" "maybe that," "could have been the 
>other." More guessing than anything else. Expressions of your 
>opinions, well, opinions don't count in this situation. What happened, 
>happened, I saw some of it, you didn't see any of it, so what makes 
>you think you are an expert is your reading stuff which is more 
>speculation that historical facts. 
>
>
>>         There must have been a time when you thought Buchenwald and
>> Dachau were extermination camps
>
>
>I never heard that word used at any time while I was in any of the 
>camps. I read it just like you did after the war in Life magazine, 
>newspapers etc. We didn't even consider the Nazis capable of murdering 
>millions of people. What we saw in the various camps gave us a clue, 
>but no one knew the magnitude of the Holocaust until they began 
>putting all the pieces together later.
>
	Then you bear witness that the Buchenwald story as a
extermination camp was published later in Life Magazine and the
papers. Did you ever come to find out that Buchenwald is now
recognized as never having been an extermination camp?

	Instead of raving and going over the brink you should just
respond to any post, piece by piece. Legimate questions and points
appear out here, at times.

	Thanks for posting your thing, just for me, but it doesn't mean I
have to accept it unconditionaly for itself or as proof the Holocaust
story is 100 % true. 	
>
>> interested in hearing what your reactions and emotions were when you
>> found out.
>
>Horseshit, Moran, you aren't interested in anything I have to say. 
>You're just going around yanking on people's chains. 
>I feel sort of like the guy that said to you something like: "don't 
>ever come around my town." your ass would be mud. I gonna ignore you 
>are the rest of those slimey bastards from now on, it's like trying to 
>make conversation with a dead man.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:11 PDT 1996
Article: 38534 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:44:48 GMT
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4nsqs4$ku4@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>>
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>># Give it up. You have no technical background much less any
>>># experience with patents.  
>>
>>>Ok. Let's go over it again.
>>
>>>The naziboys claim that it took a very long time for the
>>>HCN to evaporate from the Zyklon. The Zyklon patent and
>>>the book by Dr. Peters, the leading scientist of the firm
>>>that used to manufacture it, give a much shorter time.

	Now get a load of the wording. He says the naziboys claim it took
a "very long time" and Dr. Peters gives it "a much shorter time". Time
units can range from eons to nanoseconds. The writer is corrupt. He
avoids specifics. When he comes out here with this he exposes his
contempt for the reader.  
	

>>
>Now let's get this straight: the HCN is not 100% exhausted from the
>carrier material in 10 minutes. No one says this: neither Peters nor
>Keren. That means the carrier material continues to be a risk.  I can
>accept that the Zyklon was lethal in 10 minutes, but to claim that it was
>inert in 10 minutes does not follow.
>
	The times offered by Keren in the past have been from 40% of the
HCN lost in the first half hour to 50%. The gassings took, averaging
the varying times, ten minutes. This would be 1/3 of 40%, which would
be over 85% left after the intended procedure.
	This is why Keren avoids specifics. He's thoroughly corrupt. He's
been through the mill on this release rate before, the record is
there, yet he still uses his little wording. 
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:11 PDT 1996
Article: 38537 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:01:50 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	What with all the brethren glue you have out here, YFE, why
>>  aren't they out here helping you out as is the norm.
>>  	When you say Moran wrote something about the "KKK" and refuse to
>>  or can't show where,  are you directing this to the whole group and
>>  your brethren allies?
>>  
>>>>>
>	I have neither refused to do so or failed in the attempt.  You did so in 
>your post "Time for the a Showdown."  In that post you charactereized "Capital 
>Square v. Pinette" 115 S.Ct. 2440 as an attempt by a "Jewish conspiracy" to 
>attack the display of the Christian cross and have the menorah declared a 
>secular symbol.  The details of the case have been posted in the past both by 
>Marty Kelly and myself.  They are as stated: an action by the KKKK to have their 
>symbols displayed in a public place.  When this was pointed out to you, your 
>answer was "I stand pat."
>
>	You "stand pat" with an outrageous lie.  You have never denied it.  
>Your only reaction has been the rather lame and completely untrue assertion that 
>you lie cannot be proved.  It is fairly obvious, you whining coward,  that you take 
>some unwholesome delight in lying about Jews.
>
>	When will you come clean, L'il Tommy?  If not to the people to whom 
>you have lied but, at least, to yourself.
>
>	--YFE


`	Does this mean you are admitting you were wrong in saying Moran
said anything about the "KKKK" which you put into quote marks?

	Mr.Edeiken, can you show where Moran said anything about the
"mayor of Philadelphia"?

	Mr.Edeiken, you said you had a trial to do in Scranton, and when
you got back you would present proof you lost 160 relatives in the
Holocaust, and yet here you are every day and no proof.

	Mr.Edeiken, why did you post a person by the name of Rachelle
worked at the Allentown Public Library and no person by that name
works there?

		


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:12 PDT 1996
Article: 38541 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:06:13 GMT
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		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:13 PDT 1996
Article: 38543 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:15:41 GMT
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	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to newer
accounts that are currently written in stone.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:14 PDT 1996
Article: 38544 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Some Holocaust Facts
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:19:46 GMT
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	Anywhere from 300,000 to 4 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

	The total number of people to have been exterminated by the Nazis
during the WWII period is 10 million, 11 million or 12 million.

	Although none have been found and identified, there are at least
15 mass grave sites where at least 10 thousand people and up to 40,000
and on to 2,000,000 were buried and/or cremated in each one.

	Regardless of whether or not the 46 identified incinerator
chambers at Auschwitz have barely the volume of a refrigerator, 200
people a day could be cremated in each one.

	Sometimes the whole process was kept in secret, sometimes it
wasn't.

	There were 700,000, 800,000 or 900,000 Jews in Hungary before the
war. Somewhere between 200,000 and 400,000 were exterminated at
Auschwitz.

	Even though it was once said there were 700,000 Jews in France
before the war and the figure is now put at 70,000, the number of Jews
said to have been in Hungary and also found on the same list as the
700,000 French, the figure for the Hungarian Jews still stands.  

	Any eye witness accounts and testimony for the Holocaust story
supercede any against it.

	Any discrepancies or contradictions found in eyewitness
testimonies should not be looked on with suspicion. 

	Questioning the Holocaust story is an act of hate and those do
are "neo-Nazis" and "anti-Semitic".  

	Even though many revisions to the Holocaust story have taken
place, with many of the old accounts being generally recognized as
lies, any surviving accounts are to be accepted unconditionally.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:14 PDT 1996
Article: 38548 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Crematorium Rates
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:47:09 GMT
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	Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz, barely
the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three bodies in twenty
minutes, as the Holocaust story has it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:15 PDT 1996
Article: 38552 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,seattle.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: 960521: There is definitely a presence now in the Northwest
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:02:44 GMT
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rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>In article <19960521921.AAB79102@infinity.c2.org>, ezundel@alpha.c2.org
>(E. Zundel Repost) writes:
>>There are still ripples coming out of Seattle where I met those idealistic
>>young people of the ESU (Euro-American Student Union) who took so much flak
>>for wanting a student club of their own for the purpose of honoring their
>>ethnic heritage.  The situation up there is still poisonous.
>
>Is this true? Anyone in the Seattle area know what community college she's
>talking about? She won't tell me. Were there any press reports, or,
>better, was this wholly insignificant event ignored?
>
>>". . . I am glad that people are supporting us. Have you had a chance to
>>view the Revisionist site? We are still working on the basics, but it will
>>be ready before too long. Let us know if you have any ideas. We are
>>changing the name.
>
>I'd love to know where this site is, and what the old name was that
>Ingrid, of all people, thought was too offensive. Anybody? Surely the
>intrepid white power rangers want the truth to be told.

	He wants to know so he can report iot to the Simon Wiesenthal
Center and the ADL so they can go and intimidate for their agenda.


>>I know that we will never give up. I just wonder why we are so few and far
>>between.
>
>Educated people don't like Nazis.
>
>
>>We are truly abandoned by our elders. It makes us feel good that there are
>>people like yourself who know where we are coming from. I know that
>>students have to act before it is too late. Maybe we will start in the
>>Northwest, and move outwards.
>
>You have a good start in isolated parts of Idaho, eastern Washington, and
>Montana. I doubt that the more cosmopolitan denizens of Seattle would give
>you the time of day, though.

	In other words, people "in isolated parts of Idaho, eastern
Washington, and Montana" are idiots.



>>There is definitely a presence now in the Northwest.
>>
>>I am sure Morris Dees, the ADL and the rest of them know that from now on,
>>when they send a "survivor" to one of our colleges, we will be there.
>>They do not fear the gun-toting skin head, because he is only a reject from
>>society. They do fear us because we are tommorow's leaders."
>
>Not in my country, pal.
>
>>I am proud of those kids.  Aren't you?
>
>No.
>
>>Thought for the Day:
>>
>>"The simple fact is that "they" are out of control.  They have lost control
>>of the minds of Americans;  they are losing the battle for our minds."
>>
>>(Jubilee, Sept/Oct issue)
>
>"They" being... de joooooooos.
>
>What does Ingrid want?
>
>http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/na2.html#aryan
>
>|We must have new societies throughout the White world which are based on
>|Aryan values and are compatible with the Aryan nature. We do not need to
>|homogenize thc White world: there will be room for Germanic societies,
>|Celtic societies, Slavic societies, Baltic societies, and so on, each
>|with its own roots, traditions, and language. What we must have, however,
>|is a thorough rooting out of Semitic and other non-Aryan values and
>|customs everywhere. We must once again provide the sort of social and
>|spiritual environment in which our own nature can express itself in
>|music, in art and architecture, in literature, in philosophy and
>|scholarship, in the mass media, and in the life-styles of the people.
>|
>|In specific terms, this means a society in which young men and women
>|gather to revel with polkas or waltzes, reels or jigs, or any other White
>|dances, but never to undulate or jerk to negroid jazz or rock rhythms. It
>|means pop music without Barry Manilow and art galleries without Marc
>|Chagall. It means films in which the appearance of any non-White face on
>|the screen is a sure sign that what's being shown is either archival
>|newsreel footage or a historical drama about the bad, old days. It means
>|neighborhoods, schools, work groups, and universities in which there is a
>|feeling of family and comradeship, of a shared heritage and a shared
>|destiny. It means a sense of rootedness, which in turn engenders a sense
>|of responsibility and energizes a moral compass, so that people once
>|again know instinctively what is wholesome and natural and what is
>|degenerate and alien. It means spiritual feeling coming from the soul and
>|unencumbered by superstition or dogma, soaring free and reaching far
>|above today 's priest-ridden, church-bound spirituality. 
>|
>|We must have a government wholly committed to the service of our race and
>|subject to no non-Aryan influence. It must be a government guided by
>|fixed principles, yet able to respond in a flexible way to challenges and
>|opportunities. It must be structured and organized in a way suited to its
>|purpose of safeguarding and advancing the race, and it must be as immune
>|to corruption and subversion as human genius can make it.
>
>Censorship sucks. I think it's great that we can read what they're all
>about.
>
>-rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/Press/Swedish/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 22 23:52:16 PDT 1996
Article: 38572 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:14:37 GMT
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4/19/96

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka leleko.002
>Last-Modified: 1995/08/18
>Source: United States Department of Justice
>
>                            EXCERPT 
>               From Interrogration of Defendant
>
>February 21, 1945. Lieutenant EPPEL', Investigator of the Fourth
>Department of the "SMERSH" Directorate of Counterintelligence of the
>Second Belorussian Front interrogated as defendant -
>
>      LELEKO, Pavel Vladimirovich, born in 1922, native of the village
>      of Chaplinka, Chaplinka District, Nikolayev Region, Ukrainian,
>      citizen of the USSR.

	This report like all the rest lacks a certain detail that one
might expect from a real hearing. It is more like some tale with a few
questions inserted. A question is asked and then Leleko goes off with
a extended comment and the interogator never poses any thing for
clarification. Even UFO story writers cover their stuff more
carefully.
	As far as Treblinka is concerned, there is nothing to the story
than "eyewitness testimony". No photographs or anything. The Treblinka
chapter of the Holocaust story has it that the 40 acre camp was built
one year where the Germans exterminated up to 2,000,000 the next year
demolished by the Germans the next year, and was nothing more than a
tree farm the next year.
	The report is titled "EXERPT - interrogation of defendant". so we
know we are getting only part of the story. It took place in Feb. 1945
just a month after the Russians arrived at Auschwitz.
	Instead of wearing anyone out with a lot of prelude I will just
say that it is totally absurd, but a step by step composition has been
made and is below.
	For anyone wanting to forgo following the step by step commentary
and observations, a summary is presented at the end. Nevertheless,
this testimony is a prime example of how way out Holocaust eyewitness
testimony can be and is a good example to pour over. 

>Question: What was the system of mass extermination of people in the
>German death camp of Treblinka?
>
>Answer: Two to three trainloads of doomed prisoners arrived daily at
>the Treblinka railroad station. Each train consisted of 60 cars. The
>train was brought in three installments into the second section of the
>"death camp". Twenty cars were brought in every half hour. As soon as
>the cars crossed the barbed wire, the guard was changed. The policemen
>escorting the train remained outside the camp and left on the
>locomotive to fetch the next batch of prisoners. The railroads cards
>brought into the camp were immediately unloaded by the guards. We
>started to unload the cars with the help of the so-called "blue crew"
>consisting of doomed prisoners wearing a blue armband on the sleeve.
>Those arriving were told that they must first go to the batch house
>and will then be sent further to the Ukraine. But the sight of the
>camp, the enormous flaming pyre burning at one end of the camp, the
>suffocating stench from decomposing bodies that spread for some 10 km
>around and was particularly strong within the camp itself, made it
>clear what the place really was.

	Okay, right here we have the statement that everyone arriving at
the camp became immediately aware of what was in store for them.
Notice the statement that the "enormous flaming pyre" was at one end
of the camp. Treblinka is reported to have consisted of 16 hectares
(about 40 acres). Another testimony on Treblinka states that all the
burying, unburying, burning and reburying took place right inside this
40 acres. As we will see later on in the report, the witness claims
2,000,000 people were murdered and disposed of in just one year, which
would be within the confines of the 40 acres.
	The witness states the smell from the raging pyre could be
smelled ten kilometers away. "Ten kilometers"?
 
>The people chased out of the cars with whips guessed immediately where
>they had been brought; some attempted to climb over the barbed wire of
>the fencing, got caught at it, and we opened fire on those who were
>trying to escape and killed them.
> We tried to quiet down the fear-crazed people with heavy clubs.
> After all those who were able to walk had been unloaded, only the
> ailing, the killed and the wounded remained in the railroad cars.

Again, all the people were aware of what was in store for them. As we
will see, this procedure was carried out 3,000 times, using just a
years duration of time as a component of the ciphering, not including
any other "years" the witness testified to.
	It seems the Germans didn't have a very good procedure for
keeping the intended victims from knowing what was in store for them,
and never did figure one out, having to go through this wild mayhem on
a day to day basis.

>These were carried by the prisoners
>belonging to the "blue crew" into the so-called "infirmary", the name
>given to the place where the ailing and the wounded were shot and the
>dead were burned.

	Right here we have the statement saying this "infirmary" was a
place that you entered and where the dead were burned. Try to
formulate a picture of this incineration process along the way.

> This place became particularly crowded when the
>prisoners marked for death who were brought in the railroad cars
>attempted to commit suicide. Thus, in March 1943 there arrived a train
>in which half of the prisoners cut their throats and hands with
>razors.

	Now the testimony so far says 3 trains a day arrived at the camp,
each having 60 cars, and 20 cars at a time were brought up to be
unloaded, which would make the total number of times this procedure
would have happened in a year about 3000 times. Thus on this one
occasion out of 3000 times, half the prisoners cut their own throats.
	Evidentally the Germans didn't search the prisoners before 
they were loaded on the train or they were allowed to carry razors and
knives. We might assume these razors were the flip out "straight"
razor types, common to the era. Are we to believe the Germans allowed
hundreds of these weapons to get through, especially knowing what kind
of place the prisoners were going? Was this the only trainload that
had possession of all these knives and razors? 
	The testimony that these people killed themselves before they
even got off the train would indicate they knew what was in store for
them even before unloading.

> While unloading was going on, the prisoners cut themselves
>with knives and razors before the eyes of us, the policement, saying: 
>"anyhow you will kill us". The majority of those who did not die of
>self-inflicted wounds were shot. After the unloading, all those who
>could stand on their feet were chased toward the undressing place.
>There the wormen were separated from the men and pushed into a special
>barrack, while the men were told to undress right there outside
>another barrack. During the first years of the existence of the camp,
>women and men undressed together in the same barrack,

	The Holocaust story has it that Treblinka was in operation for
only a year yet here we have the testimony, "During the first years of
the existance of the camp ...". Evidentally this testimony wasn't
synchronized with other accounts that had to have the process of the
camp last only one year.

> But it happened
>once that the prisoners attacked the "chief of the working crew" in
>the undressing barrack. Somehow the man managed to escape from there.
>Several policemen and Germans immediately rushed in. One of the
>Germans started firing into the crowd from his sub-machine gun. After
>they had stopped shooting, the Germans and the policemen started to
>beat with clubs and whips those who survivied. After this incident,
>men were assigned a special place in the  open air in which to
>undress, by the barrack, across from the women's undressing place.
>Pushed by the clubs of the Germans and the policemen, the men threw
>off their clothing, having first handed their valuables and money to a
>special "cashier's office". The women were obliged to remove their
>shoes before entering the undressingplace. They were forced to remove
>all their clothing under the supervision of German policemen and
>prisoners of the so-called "red crew". Those who resisted were
>whipped.

	Here we have the first accounts of the brutal sadistic nature of
the Germans. 

>Very often the Germans and the policemen tore off and cut off the
>clothing of those who did not want to undress or undressed too slowly.
>Many women begged to be allowed to keep at least some clothing on
>their persons, but the German, smiling cynically, ordered them to
>undress "to the end". The policemen or the workers threw to the ground
>and undressed who refused to do so. The undressed women were told to
>hand over all their valuables and money to the "cashier's office".
>After this the women were driven in groups to another part of the
>barrack, where 50 prisoners - "hairdressers" were working. The women
>sat on a long bench and the "hairdressers" cut off their hair. The cut
>hair were packed in large bags and sent by trainloads to Germany. One
>of the Germans told me that in Germany they are used to fill
>mattresses, also for soft upholstery. He said that this hair make very
>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.

	The hair was bagged and sent to Germany to be made into
mattresses and upholstery. This is in the same ilk as the now defunct
soap story which was well publicized in the early years after the war.
We could take special note of the attack on the German people in
general with "He said that this hair make very good mattresses and the
Germans buy them willingly". "Willingly" to imply they knew what they
were buying.

>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.
>After their hair was cut the women were sent in batches to the third
>section of the camp, to the "bath house", but in reality to the gas
>chamber to be exterminated there.
>
>Before entering the gas chamber building they passed along a long path
>bordered on both sides with a high fence made of barbed wire and
>branches. Along the edge of the path stood policemen and Germans. Each
>one held a whip or a club. I stood repeatedly on the edge of this path
>with other policemen and drove along with a whip the women and the men
>into the gas chamber building. Many women were not quite sure that
>they would now be exterminated and in order to have some means of
>subsistence in the future, they hid some valuables on their persons.

	All of a sudden the prisoners, who in the immediate previous
testimony were all supposed to know they were going to die, hid their
valuables so they would "have some subsistence in the future".
"Future"? 

>To prevent this, the Germans placed special controllers in the center
>of the path. When they noticed that a woman walked along the path
>holding her legs close together, she was stopped at once and cynically
>examined, and if anything was found on her, she was beaten almost to
>death. The men walked more quietly down this path. Several times I
>heard how one, speaking to another, asked: "Why are you weeping? Do
>you believe you can arouse compassion in these Germans?" Frequently we
>could hear cries of "Hail Stalin!", "Hail the Red Army!" To us Russian
>guards, they said: "Today you exterminate us, and tomorrow the Germans
>will be killing you".
>
>When the procession of doomed people approached the gas chamber
>building, MARCHENKO and Nikolay, the motorists of the gas chambers
>shouted: "Walk faster, or the water will become cold!" Each group of
>women or men was pushed from behind by some German and very frequently
>by Franz, the camp commander himself, escorted by dogs. As they
>approached the gas chambers, the people started to recoil in horror,
>sometimes they tried to retrace their steps. Then whips and clubs were
>used. Franz immediately ordered his dog to attack the naken people.
>Each trained for this, it grabbed them by their genitals.

	Okay, more stories of German brutality. 

>Aside from the motor operators who had dogs with them, there were five
>or six Germans near the gas chambers. With whips and clubs they chased
>people into the passage of the gas chamber building and then into the
>gas chambers. The Germans and the motor operators then competed as to
>atrocities with regard to the people to be killed. MARCHENKO for
>instance, had a sword with which he mutilated people. He cut off the
>breasts of women.

	Can you picture it. As the Germans and the Russian motorman were
herding the people into the gas chamber they took time to hack a few
in front of the others. Evidentally the Germans didn't worry about
this causing any panic among the rest, all this happening again and
again during the 3000+ times the procedure took place. Can you picture
it? Womens breasts laying around on the ground. What happened then?
Did they just file the people into the chambers over the cut off
breasts or did someone have to go around and pick them up? Did they
put the mutilated body parts in containers and then take them over to
the cremation along with the rest of the bodies?
 
>When the chamber was filled to capacity, the Germans or the motorists
>came to the door and started beating up the naked people with a rubber
>whip and at the same time set their dogs against them. The prisoners
>shrank away into the depth of the chamber yielding place to more
>prisoners.
> Such a pressing-in occurred several times so that some 700
>to 800 people could be crowded into the not-so-large chambers. When
>the chambers were filled to the very limit, the Germans started to
>throw in the children left by the women either in the undressing place
>or more frequently outside the gas chamber building. As the ceiling of
>the gas chambers was very low, the children thrown into the chamber
>hit the ceiling and then, disfigured, sometimes with broken heads,
>fell on the heads of the prisoners.

	We will recognize by the end of what is given, we can not get a
picture of this chamber in our heads or the size of the door. But
according to a previous post by McVay "Holocaust Almanac: The Killing
Begins" posted 10/23/95, the doors would have been barely three feet
across by 5 feet high. This Leleko testimony says kids were thrown in
over the heads of those in the chamber. The ceiling is said to have
been very low. An average ceiling is about 8 feet, but this one was
very low. Seven feet? Six feet? Now how far could someone throw a
child in under the circumstances described?  The people were densed
packed in, so they must have been right at the door way too. How did
the Germans contain this situation while throwing in the children
through a 3 foot by 5 foot door with very little head room as the
space that the children were thrown? According to the other mentioned
testimony, fake shower heads were installed which one might think even
put more of a problem of throwing in babies over the heads of the
dense packed people.
	Whatever, the McVay Almanac account says "There had been
instances in the old chambers in which little children had not been
asphyxiated because gas rose to the ceiling". This seems thoroughly
contradictory to this Leleko testimony, or vice versa.	

>When loading of the chambers was completed, they were sealed off by
>hermetically closing doors. 

	On the one hand the witness says a chamber was loaded with 800
people and the another post by McVay from the Almanac says 600. 

>Motorists MARCHENKO and Nikolay started
>the motors. The gas produced went through the pipes into the chambers.
>The process of suffocation began.

	This person is under the opinion that the extermination process
was by suffocation and not the result of being poisoned with carbon
monoxide. In the other testimony mentioned, it says the gas was
introduced through the piping to the showerheads, a story that was
applied at on time to tales of Auschwitz, and other camps now revised
as having never been extermination camps in the first place. 

> Some time after the motor had been
>started, the motorists looked into the chambers through special
>observation portholes situated near each door, in order to determine
>how the process of extermination was going on. When asked what they
>saw, the motorists answered that the people were writhing, crushing
>each other. I also tried to look through the porthole, but for some
>reason could see nothing. 

	He looked in but couldn't see anything? Was this only once out of
all the time he was there, or did he attempt it numerous times? The
motorman didn't seem to have any problem looking inside, even though
he should have, since the Almanac says there were no lights at all
inside the chamber. 

>Gradually the noise in the chambers died
>down. Some fifteen minutes later the motors were stopped and there was
>an unusual silence.
>
>While extermination of this batch of prisoners went on, a new batch of
>condemned people arrived into the camp. The entire process started all
>over again.
>
>Question: What was done with the bodies of the prisoners?

	So we can see from this question the interogators weren't
concerned with or didn't formulate any questions while listening to
the witness.

>Answer: When the process of extermination by gasses was completed, the
>outer doors of the chambers were opened. The disfigured, bitten
>prisoners, with torn-off noses and ears lay on top of each other in
>the most varied postures.

	Suddenly "outer doors". Actually going by the description of how
the Germans made a number of whippings to get more and more people
into the chambers, "800 in a not too large of a chamber" we wonder how
they would have room to "writher and crush" each other. They should
all have died standing up.
	What happened inside the chambers? The prisoners "tore off" their
own noses and ears or they tore each others noses and ears off? How
did they do this in a tight dense pack situation like the one thus
described? How does one tear off noses and ears? Maybe it means the
victims bit each others ears and noses off.
	This didn't seem to be the case in the tales of Auschwitz.
Perhaps Holocaust defenders would say it because they were gassed with
carbon momoxide. Yet carbon monoxide is a very sutble gas. Many people
have died from just being in the same room with some brickettes,
trying to keep warm. They die in their sleep. And of course many
people have committed suicide by sitting in their car with a hose
running from the tail pipe through a window. Are these all reported to
have died in a writhering agony?

>Several hundred prisoners destined for death and belonging to the
>"working crews" were chased to the gas chamber building and they
>started to unload the chambers.

	Several hundred were involved in unloading the chambers.      

> In order to facilitate the removal of
>the dead bodies from the chambers, streams of water were poured over
>them. The bodies were laid on stretchers. An especially assigned man
>with pincers stood right there and opened the dead mouths. If he found
>any gold teeth he yanked them out with his pincers. The bodies were
>carried on stretchers to the special furnace about which I have
>testified earlier.

	Here we have it one guy, "An especially assigned man" standing
"right there" to pull the teeth as the hundreds of workers filed up to
and away from the chamber. We can imagine the process would be quite
confusing, what with all the bodies crammed in, the workers lined up
to get the bodies, stopping to have the teeth pulled out of the body
they were carrying, filing past each other back and forth over the
path as they retrieved and carried away back to be cremated. All this
with body parts laying around on the ground?

> On the way there, under the effect of the fresh
>air, some of the killed, especially pregnant women, began to revive,
>to groan.

	After the massive crushing into the chamber(s), there to wait 15
minutes while the gas was introduced and people were writhering in the
dense pack situation, tearing and/or biting noses and ears off, it
turns out the ones that survived were mostly pregnant women.  

> We the policemen, shot them on the spot and I had to shoot
>them too. The bodies were laid on the rails of the incinerator where
>the fire burned already. Some 800-1000 bodies were laid on the
>incinerator at one time.

	Take note of these mentioned "rails". Were they over some kind of
pit? Maybe we'll find out down the road. We can hold onto the "800 to
1,000 bodies" for future comment.  

> They continued to burn for some five hours.

	Amid this testimony it is said that a new batch was brought in
every half hour, that there were 2 to 3 trains a day coming in, each
one holding 3,500 to 4,000 people. Lets take the 3,500, giving the
Holocaust story the benefits of the lower numbers. This would be
rounded off, 10,000 people a day. Giving the Holocaust story the
benefit of the two numbers we can say 1000 people were cremated every
6 hours, giving time for loading the bodies and recovering any ashes.
This would come out to roughly 4 loads a day, 1000 people per load,
4,000 a day, leaving 6,000 left over, daily. Not giving the Holocaust
story any accomodation in the numbers the number of people left over
beyond the system's capacity would be 8,000. 

>This incinerator functioned ceaselessly day and night. After the
>bodies had been burned, the prisoners belonging to the "working crews"
>passed the ashes and remains of the bodies through a sieve.

	Now this conveniently accounts for why there has never been any
evidence found that would support the story of millions being killed.

> The parts
>of the body that had burned but had preserved their natural shape were
>put into a special mortar and pounded into flour. This was done in
>order to hide the traces of the crimes committed. Later on the ashes
>were buried in deep pits.
>
>During the first year of the existence of the "death camp", the bodies
>of the dead people were not burned but were buried.
	
	We can see the statement says the bodies were buried whole in the
first year, so this would do away with anyone trying to say the 6,000
to 8,000 left over bodies on a day by day occurance were not taken to
other areas to be burned, buried or whatever. The next statement
reiterates this.  

> Starting in 1943,
>after the incinerator was built, the pits with the bodies buried in
>them were opened up and the content burned.

	 The story having the bodies dug up, burned and reburied would
seem to explain why no evidence of such a vast undertaking exists. But
this is not the case. The vast amount of ashes in the disrupted
regolithic sequence of the soil would be subject to investigation and
determination by soil analysis and comparison with adjacent land, even
unto today. Especially since the whole thing was said to have taken
place within 40 acres of land, making location of the graves sites
easy, if any existed.
	It should be recalled that this interogation was supplied by the
Soviets, who never did one single forensic test or probe to verify any
of the allegations or testimony they presented. 

> All this work was done by
>the prisoners waiting to die under the supervision of the Germans and
>of us, the policemen.
>
>Question: What was the purpose of the so-called "infirmary"?
>
>Answer: The Germans gave the name of "infirmary" to that place in the
>death camp where the sick and wounded prisoners were killed. The
>"infirmary" covered a small area, in the center of which there was a
>large pit six to eight meters in diameter and three meters deep. At
>its bottom there always burned a fire into which the bodies were
>thrown.

	Okay. The "infirmary" has been identified again as the place
where the cremations took place. No other place is mentioned. Here we
are given further details as to the fire pit (incineration facility).
It was about 7 meters (21 feet) across and three meters (9 feet) deep.
Just a little bigger than the area size of a average residential
swimming pool. 

> The entire area of the "infirmary" was surrounded by a large
>fence of barbed wire and branches. To the side of the fire, around the
>corner of the fence, there was a sentry hut in which those who worked
>in the "infirmary" rested and warmed themselves. Those included MATUS,
>the German unterscharfu"hrer, whom we called the "doctor", the
>policeman-guard and five prisoners from the "working crew". On their
>sleeves they wore white bands with a red cross. When the trains
>carrying the doomed prisoners came in, all those who could not move,
>the ailing and the wounded were carried or assisted to the sentry hut
>in the "infirmary" by the prisoners belonging to the working crews.
>There the "infirmary attendants" quickly undressed them, brought them
>to the fire in groups of several and sat them on the ground. MATUS
>then approached them from behind and shot them one after the other
>either with his pistol, his submachine gun or his rifle.

	Of course a little more about German brutality.

> The dead rolled to the bottom of the pit to the fire.

	Okay, the dead "rolled" to the bottom of the pit, which would
indicate it was sort of bowl shaped. To the "bottom" of the pit and
thus to the "fire"? What kind of fire? Some logs burning at the
bottom? A grate over burners fed by gas or oil? What happened to the
"rails" that he said they laid the bodies on? Who knows? Will we find
out the answer to all this by the end of this report? No.

> We the guards who were on
>duty in the "infirmary" also took part in the shooting. When all the
>wounded and the sick had been killed, the "infirmary attendants" went
>down into the pit and threw the dead into the fire.

	Wait a minute. The workers went down into the pit to throw the
dead into the fires? But what about the "rails" or rolling the bodies
down?

> At least 100
>prisoners were shot daily in the "infirmary". It happened once that
>among the ailing in an incoming train there were the father and mother
>of one of the prisoners destined to die and belonging to a "working
>crew". Pushed by policemen, he carried his father to the "infirmary"
>to be shot. In the "infirmary", near the sentry hut, he and his father
>fell to the ground. MATUS threw himself at him with a whip. He then
>ran to the train and soon returned carrying his mother. After this he
>became insane. The German shot him and then killed the father and the
>mother.

	A special personal detail.
>
>Question: What were the "working crews" of the "death camp"? How were
>they assembled?
>
>Answer: As I have already testified, the servicing of the "death camp"
>was carried out by special crews composed of those who had been
>brought in for extermination. They camp comprised several "working
>crews", such as the "blue" working crew which unloaded the trains, the
>"red" working crew which serviced the undressing places, the "black"
>working crew which destroyed the bodies. There was also a special crew
>that sorted out the belongings of the killed. Altogether the crews
>numbered up to 1,500 persons. They also included some 15 women who did
>the washing of clothes. Selection into the working crew took place
>according to the need for their services - from among the prisoners
>brought to the camp to be exterminated. Until the end of 1942 the
>working crews were assembled every two-three days and correspondingly,
>every two-three days they were all exterminated in the "infirmary".

	Every three days the Germans exterminated 1,500 workers, in the
infirmary? Considering Leleko's previous statement "The
"infirmary" covered a small area ..." we might get the idea this would
be a bit chaotic. 

>Their extermination was conducted in the following manner. After work,
>around 10-11 p.m., a working crew of some 100-200 people was brought
>to the "infirmary". They were then taken into the place in batches of
>five and shot there by the policemen and the Germans. Those belonging
>to the working crews and who happened to be then near the barbed wire
>fencing in the "infirmary" could hear how their comrades were being
>killed and waited for their own death. Within one and one half or two
>hours hundreds of people had been shot and were burning on the fire.
>Working crews were also exterminated for having done something that
>displeased the Germans.

	The former workers were taken into the infirmary 5 at a time.
Okay. At least we don't have to struggle trying to conceive a picture
of them being in there all at once. But hold it. There were 1,500 all
together that were exterminated 5 at a time which would mean the
procedure would have had to repeat itself 300 times, taking place
during a time span of "one to one and a half to two hours", which
would come out to one batch every 20 seconds for a one and a half hour
duration. This must have been quite a scene, what with the other
bodies being brought in to the infirmary from the gas chambers. Why
did the Germans bring in the workers 5 at a time? The witness doesn't
say. 

>In September 1942, soon after I entered the "death camp" as they were
>laying down bodies for burial in the large pits, the workers killed a
>German who had shown particularly savage cruelty toward the prisoners.

	More German brutality.		

>Immediately the entire crew, numbering some 250 people, were grouped
>at the bottom of the pit together with the bodies that they had not
>yet had time to bury. The workers were executed right there over the
>bodies of the dead prisoners. One after the other they were brought to
>the end of the pit, laid on the dead bodies and their heads were cut
>off or split up with an axe or wooden mallet. All 250 were killed in
>this way.
>
>A similar case occurred soon after in the first section of the "death
>camp".
>
> During the evening inspection, a German conducting the
>inspection, displeased with the workers because their answers were not
>clear enough, started to beat them in turn and during this incident,
>one of the workers hit him with a knife. The entire crew was
>immediately surrounded by Germans and policemen. Every fifth worker
>was killed with axes in full view of the entire assembly. Over 50
>persons were thus hacked down.

	More German brutality.

>It happened that the Germans learned that several among the working
>crews were preparing a riot. These people, they were found to be ten
>of them, were seized and hung by their feet. They suffered for five
>hours and after they were dead they still hung on posts for three days
>in the middle of the camp. It was enough for a worker not to look
>pleasantly enough at a German, not to greet him, to be immediately
>killed. Nevertheless, goaded on with whips and bullets, they went to
>their death, led their kin, their relations to be shot, did everything
>they were ordered to do. The Germans not only exterminated them, but
>also used them for their own amusement. They forced them to stage
>comical plays, they organized a large orchestra composed of prisoners
>waiting to die, which played every day some light music under the
>windows of the camp commander. They also staged amusements of a
>different sort. One day the commander declared that he wanted to be
>the guest at a wedding among the doomed prisoners. Right away a young
>woman was picked out among the laundry women and a groom was found
>among the workers. Both were dressed in appropriate fashion and
>ordered to go through the complete wedding ritual. The "newlyweds"
>were given a separate room. On the second day the commander of the
>camp declared that the newlyweds must of necessity leave for a
>"honeymoon trip". Escorted by the guards and the Germans and also the
>workers, the "groom" and the "bride" were brought to the "infirmary"
>and shot and then thrown into the fire. Meanwhile the Germans ordered
>the workers to shout "Happy Voyage"! and "See you soon!"
>
>Question: Name the figure for the number of people exterminated in the
>Treblinka death camp?
>
>Answer: During my stay in the "death camp", i.e. during the period
>from September 1942 to September 1943, no less than two million were
>exterminated there. Every day, with rare interruptions, two-three
>trainloads arrived to the camp, each one bringing in some 3,500-4,000
>doomed prisoners. On the average six to eight thousand were
>exterminated daily. How many were exterminated in this camp during its
>entire existence I do not know. [Transciption note: using this
>man's own figures, the figure of two million cannot be supported - his
>figures suggest 1.2 to 1.4 million, or about double the generally
>accepted death toll for Treblinka. knm. Aug. 5, 1994]

	Heres one of McVay's "Transcription Notes". McVay is pointing out
the witnesses claim of two million as opposed to his statement of
4,000 a day, times the year, 365 days, 1,400,000. Which figure, 1.2
million or 1.4 million is double the "generally accepted" death toll,
McVay doesn't say. The one figure floating around is 900,000. Half of
1.2 million would be 600,000 and for 1.4 million 700,000.
	What should one make out of this testimony. Is the witness prone
to exaggeration or even downright lieing? McVay doesn't seem to have a
transcription comment on this. Oh well, 2,000,000 isn't to far from
600,000, 700,000 or 900,000, the Leleko figures being just two to
three times the Holocaust story's figures, which conforms to the
general standard for Holocaust figures.  

>Question: What was the nationality of those who were exterminated?
>
>Answer: The crushing majority were of Jewish nationality. They were
>brought to the "death camp" from Germany, Poland, Bulgaria and France.

	But of course. The Holocaust story is 99.999% a Jewish story.

>Possibly from other countries also, but of this I do not know. Aside
>from Jews, several hundred Gypsies and Poles were exterminated there.

	Okay 600,000, 700,000, 900,000 or 2,000,000 minus several hundred
gives us more of a perspective on what Leleko means by a "crushing
majority" were Jewish.
>
>This testimony has been written down from my words correctly, has been
>read by me (signature) LELEKO

                            Summary
                            =======

	Considering how this witness is called a defendant, we should
wonder what kind of proceedings these were. Especially how it was even
before the war was completely over. Did the defendant have a lawyer?
Who knows.
	Since the defendant was implicating other names in the testimony
we wonder if his testimony wasn't used in any trials for those named.
It would be interesting to see what these other named people testified
to. Maybe Nizkor (McVay) will post them if any exists. 
	Who knows. Maybe a Leleko never even existed. After all, the
Holocaust story refers to the Soviets as liars in the matter when its
convenient, such as who was responsible for the gross exaggerations of
the numbers said to have been killed at Auschwitz.
	One of the Almanac posts by McVay, titled "Treblinka's 'new and
improved' killing machine" describes a major renovation in the middle
of the existing extermination process at the camp, including 10 new
gas chambers, "although according to some sources the new building
included only six gas chambers", and Leleko didn't mention any of it
even though any dates given show he would have been there when any
changes were made.
	Whatever, excluding any of the Almanac comment, and focusing just
on this testimony our summary observations would have to recall that
the "pit" which was only a bit larger than a average sized residental
swimming pool could handle 1000 people at a time. That it had some
kind of fire at the bottom, that burned constantly, day and night yet
could be cleaned of ashes, that the people were either laid on rails
over it, dumped in, rolled in or were carried down into it, that 6,000
to 8,000 people were left over each day that the pit could not
accommodate, that the prisoners bound for the camp were allowed to
carry knives and razors, that the system was of such a nature that the
Germans had to endure total mayhem on a day by day basis and even
contibuted to it, that people tore or bit ears and noses off, that
after the crushing ordeal and tearing and/or biting ears and noses off
the ones who survived were mostly pregnant women, that the prisoners
knew about their fate, yet looked foward to the future, and that
inspite of any McVay "Transcription Note" the witness claimed
2,000,000 people were killed there in one year. 

>Interrogation made by: Investigator of the Fourth Department of the
>SMERCH Directorate of Counterintelligence of the Second Belorussian
>Front, Lietenant (signature) EPPEL'
>
>The Excerpt is true: First Deputy Procurator of the Crimean Region,
>Senior Councillor of Justice. (KUPTSOV)

	 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>        Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>        European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 23 00:13:12 PDT 1996
Article: 29684 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,seattle.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: 960521: There is definitely a presence now in the Northwest
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rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>In article <19960521921.AAB79102@infinity.c2.org>, ezundel@alpha.c2.org
>(E. Zundel Repost) writes:
>>There are still ripples coming out of Seattle where I met those idealistic
>>young people of the ESU (Euro-American Student Union) who took so much flak
>>for wanting a student club of their own for the purpose of honoring their
>>ethnic heritage.  The situation up there is still poisonous.
>
>Is this true? Anyone in the Seattle area know what community college she's
>talking about? She won't tell me. Were there any press reports, or,
>better, was this wholly insignificant event ignored?
>
>>". . . I am glad that people are supporting us. Have you had a chance to
>>view the Revisionist site? We are still working on the basics, but it will
>>be ready before too long. Let us know if you have any ideas. We are
>>changing the name.
>
>I'd love to know where this site is, and what the old name was that
>Ingrid, of all people, thought was too offensive. Anybody? Surely the
>intrepid white power rangers want the truth to be told.

	He wants to know so he can report iot to the Simon Wiesenthal
Center and the ADL so they can go and intimidate for their agenda.


>>I know that we will never give up. I just wonder why we are so few and far
>>between.
>
>Educated people don't like Nazis.
>
>
>>We are truly abandoned by our elders. It makes us feel good that there are
>>people like yourself who know where we are coming from. I know that
>>students have to act before it is too late. Maybe we will start in the
>>Northwest, and move outwards.
>
>You have a good start in isolated parts of Idaho, eastern Washington, and
>Montana. I doubt that the more cosmopolitan denizens of Seattle would give
>you the time of day, though.

	In other words, people "in isolated parts of Idaho, eastern
Washington, and Montana" are idiots.



>>There is definitely a presence now in the Northwest.
>>
>>I am sure Morris Dees, the ADL and the rest of them know that from now on,
>>when they send a "survivor" to one of our colleges, we will be there.
>>They do not fear the gun-toting skin head, because he is only a reject from
>>society. They do fear us because we are tommorow's leaders."
>
>Not in my country, pal.
>
>>I am proud of those kids.  Aren't you?
>
>No.
>
>>Thought for the Day:
>>
>>"The simple fact is that "they" are out of control.  They have lost control
>>of the minds of Americans;  they are losing the battle for our minds."
>>
>>(Jubilee, Sept/Oct issue)
>
>"They" being... de joooooooos.
>
>What does Ingrid want?
>
>http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/na2.html#aryan
>
>|We must have new societies throughout the White world which are based on
>|Aryan values and are compatible with the Aryan nature. We do not need to
>|homogenize thc White world: there will be room for Germanic societies,
>|Celtic societies, Slavic societies, Baltic societies, and so on, each
>|with its own roots, traditions, and language. What we must have, however,
>|is a thorough rooting out of Semitic and other non-Aryan values and
>|customs everywhere. We must once again provide the sort of social and
>|spiritual environment in which our own nature can express itself in
>|music, in art and architecture, in literature, in philosophy and
>|scholarship, in the mass media, and in the life-styles of the people.
>|
>|In specific terms, this means a society in which young men and women
>|gather to revel with polkas or waltzes, reels or jigs, or any other White
>|dances, but never to undulate or jerk to negroid jazz or rock rhythms. It
>|means pop music without Barry Manilow and art galleries without Marc
>|Chagall. It means films in which the appearance of any non-White face on
>|the screen is a sure sign that what's being shown is either archival
>|newsreel footage or a historical drama about the bad, old days. It means
>|neighborhoods, schools, work groups, and universities in which there is a
>|feeling of family and comradeship, of a shared heritage and a shared
>|destiny. It means a sense of rootedness, which in turn engenders a sense
>|of responsibility and energizes a moral compass, so that people once
>|again know instinctively what is wholesome and natural and what is
>|degenerate and alien. It means spiritual feeling coming from the soul and
>|unencumbered by superstition or dogma, soaring free and reaching far
>|above today 's priest-ridden, church-bound spirituality. 
>|
>|We must have a government wholly committed to the service of our race and
>|subject to no non-Aryan influence. It must be a government guided by
>|fixed principles, yet able to respond in a flexible way to challenges and
>|opportunities. It must be structured and organized in a way suited to its
>|purpose of safeguarding and advancing the race, and it must be as immune
>|to corruption and subversion as human genius can make it.
>
>Censorship sucks. I think it's great that we can read what they're all
>about.
>
>-rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/Press/Swedish/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 23 07:54:51 PDT 1996
Article: 1192 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,seattle.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: 960521: There is definitely a presence now in the Northwest
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:02:44 GMT
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rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>In article <19960521921.AAB79102@infinity.c2.org>, ezundel@alpha.c2.org
>(E. Zundel Repost) writes:
>>There are still ripples coming out of Seattle where I met those idealistic
>>young people of the ESU (Euro-American Student Union) who took so much flak
>>for wanting a student club of their own for the purpose of honoring their
>>ethnic heritage.  The situation up there is still poisonous.
>
>Is this true? Anyone in the Seattle area know what community college she's
>talking about? She won't tell me. Were there any press reports, or,
>better, was this wholly insignificant event ignored?
>
>>". . . I am glad that people are supporting us. Have you had a chance to
>>view the Revisionist site? We are still working on the basics, but it will
>>be ready before too long. Let us know if you have any ideas. We are
>>changing the name.
>
>I'd love to know where this site is, and what the old name was that
>Ingrid, of all people, thought was too offensive. Anybody? Surely the
>intrepid white power rangers want the truth to be told.

	He wants to know so he can report iot to the Simon Wiesenthal
Center and the ADL so they can go and intimidate for their agenda.


>>I know that we will never give up. I just wonder why we are so few and far
>>between.
>
>Educated people don't like Nazis.
>
>
>>We are truly abandoned by our elders. It makes us feel good that there are
>>people like yourself who know where we are coming from. I know that
>>students have to act before it is too late. Maybe we will start in the
>>Northwest, and move outwards.
>
>You have a good start in isolated parts of Idaho, eastern Washington, and
>Montana. I doubt that the more cosmopolitan denizens of Seattle would give
>you the time of day, though.

	In other words, people "in isolated parts of Idaho, eastern
Washington, and Montana" are idiots.



>>There is definitely a presence now in the Northwest.
>>
>>I am sure Morris Dees, the ADL and the rest of them know that from now on,
>>when they send a "survivor" to one of our colleges, we will be there.
>>They do not fear the gun-toting skin head, because he is only a reject from
>>society. They do fear us because we are tommorow's leaders."
>
>Not in my country, pal.
>
>>I am proud of those kids.  Aren't you?
>
>No.
>
>>Thought for the Day:
>>
>>"The simple fact is that "they" are out of control.  They have lost control
>>of the minds of Americans;  they are losing the battle for our minds."
>>
>>(Jubilee, Sept/Oct issue)
>
>"They" being... de joooooooos.
>
>What does Ingrid want?
>
>http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/na2.html#aryan
>
>|We must have new societies throughout the White world which are based on
>|Aryan values and are compatible with the Aryan nature. We do not need to
>|homogenize thc White world: there will be room for Germanic societies,
>|Celtic societies, Slavic societies, Baltic societies, and so on, each
>|with its own roots, traditions, and language. What we must have, however,
>|is a thorough rooting out of Semitic and other non-Aryan values and
>|customs everywhere. We must once again provide the sort of social and
>|spiritual environment in which our own nature can express itself in
>|music, in art and architecture, in literature, in philosophy and
>|scholarship, in the mass media, and in the life-styles of the people.
>|
>|In specific terms, this means a society in which young men and women
>|gather to revel with polkas or waltzes, reels or jigs, or any other White
>|dances, but never to undulate or jerk to negroid jazz or rock rhythms. It
>|means pop music without Barry Manilow and art galleries without Marc
>|Chagall. It means films in which the appearance of any non-White face on
>|the screen is a sure sign that what's being shown is either archival
>|newsreel footage or a historical drama about the bad, old days. It means
>|neighborhoods, schools, work groups, and universities in which there is a
>|feeling of family and comradeship, of a shared heritage and a shared
>|destiny. It means a sense of rootedness, which in turn engenders a sense
>|of responsibility and energizes a moral compass, so that people once
>|again know instinctively what is wholesome and natural and what is
>|degenerate and alien. It means spiritual feeling coming from the soul and
>|unencumbered by superstition or dogma, soaring free and reaching far
>|above today 's priest-ridden, church-bound spirituality. 
>|
>|We must have a government wholly committed to the service of our race and
>|subject to no non-Aryan influence. It must be a government guided by
>|fixed principles, yet able to respond in a flexible way to challenges and
>|opportunities. It must be structured and organized in a way suited to its
>|purpose of safeguarding and advancing the race, and it must be as immune
>|to corruption and subversion as human genius can make it.
>
>Censorship sucks. I think it's great that we can read what they're all
>about.
>
>-rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/Press/Swedish/



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:34 PDT 1996
Article: 38781 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Seeking the first time
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:02:33 GMT
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	The Holocaust story has been modified extensively over the years
with many places, methods and numbers being deleted from the story
accounts.
	The current popular figure for the number of Jews said to have
been exterminated is 6,000,000. Six million. 
	Does anyone know, when was the first time this 6,000,000 figure
was announced?
	The earliest date that it was published? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:35 PDT 1996
Article: 38783 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:04:40 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31a3113d.2994785@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
>> Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
>> give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>> 
>>                             --------
>>         
>> "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>> at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>> former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>> Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>> are much lower than previously thought?"
>> 
>> *("well over" meaning 4 million)
>> 
>> The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
>> "invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
>> "to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
>> overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
>> by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
>> figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
>> their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
>>        
>> Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
>> go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.
>> 
>> "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
>> has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."
>
>Here, we have yet another brazen example of "lying by ommission" and
>taking what was said out of context for the purpose of malicious
>distortion. Such purile tactics are the stock-in-trade of Holocuast
>deniers, of which Moran is one. The full passgae, in context, from the
>center's "Responses to Revisionist Arguments" page (URL:
>http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/revision.htm#13) is:
>
>"13. For years, the death statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well
>over 3 million. Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the former death camp
>estimates Jewish losses closer to 1 million. Shouldn't the new figures
>imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust are much lower than previously
>thought? 
>
>   "The figure of 3-4 million murdered at Auschwitz-Birkenau was an invention 
>   of communist officials in Poland (and the former U.S.S.R.) which sought 
>   to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering at Auschwitz. To do this, 
>   they purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at 
>   Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. In a clever attempt 
>   to disguise the subterfuge, the figures for Jewish losses were inflated 
>   by nearly double, so that their losses would still be larger than those 
>   of non-Jewish victims,though now by a much smaller ratio. With the end of 
>   communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, officials at the Auschwitz 
>   museum finally lowered the casualty figures in line with the estimates of 
>   historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and 1 1/2 million 
>   people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau, 80 - 90% of them Jews.
>
>   "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust has always been 
>   in line with the lower Auschwitz figures.
>
>As can be seen, Moran's implication that "[f]or years, the death
>statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well over 3 million..."
>was the position of the Center is a shallow-minded canard. The truth, of
>course, is that Center framed this as a _question_ (question #13) in
>attributing the claims by deniers who assert that the discrepancy between
>erroneous death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau by the former Polish and Soviet
>governments, and the historically accepted death toll described by the
>plaque, somehow means that the death toll of the Holocaust was somehow
>significantly revised downwards. 
>
>Of course, as the Wiesenthal Center illustrates, it never was. 

	"Never was" what?


>> Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
>> 6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
>> Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
>> down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
>> see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
>> blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
>
>Here we see Moran, using his misrepresentation of what the Center said as
>a strawman argument, maliciously distorts the assertions of the Center.
>Convienantly ignored is that historians, for decades, have come to
>agreement that the death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau was between 1-1.5
>million (80-90% Jews) and the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust,
>including the deaths at Auschwitz, was around 6 million. 

	Now here we have Van Alstine saying that Moran,

"Convienently ignored is that historians, for decades, have come to
agreement that the death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau was between 1-1.5
million (80-90% Jews) ..." and the next thing is "[snip]", the long
list of historian accounts that have from 2 million Jews to over 3.5
million Jews being killed at Auschwitz which sorely challenges the
crediblity of Wiesenthal statement.  

>[snip]
>
>> So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
>> 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
>> the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
>> to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
>> anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
>> would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
>> numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
>> Jews.
>
>Again, convientantly ignored, is any mention of Dr. Piper's exhaustive
>estimate, begun in 1980 and completed in 1986, for the number murdered at
>Auschwitz, which was (at least) 1.1 million. It was, in great part, Dr.
>Piper's estimate that was used by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum's
>1990 reassesment of the Museum's official estimate to 1.1 million. An
>estimate that historians and Holocaust researchers are in agreement with.
>As is the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

	What relevance does it have to the Wiesenthal declaration and the
challenging list?  


>> This poster has over the years witnessed many times...
>
>And _this_ poster has witnessed, over the months, that Moran has been
>quite liberal with his lies and innuendo. Especially when it regards Jews
>in general, the numbers of Jews murdered in the Holocaust, the historical
>veracity of the Holocaust, and the fact that Auschwitz was an
>extermination camp that murdered people in gas chambers with Zyklon B and
>incinerated their bodies. 
>
>[snip]
>
>> In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
>> Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
>> pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
>> record straight?  
>
>But, as Moran knows full-well knows, that is _exactly_ what the Center was
>doing in question #13! Why else would he lie, distort, and fabricate about
>what the Center said in question #13 in order to "prove" the Simon
>Wiesenthal Center was doing otherwise? Evidently he must feel the
>neccessity to slander the Simon Wiesenthal Center because their refutation
>completely demolishes the deniers' patently false and misleading claims! 

	Whether or not is was a question in the beginning, it is the
answer we're talking about. What relevance do you see in that it was
an answer to a question - Van Alstine?


>> It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
>> initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
>> struggled energetically to keep it from happening. 
>
>Considering the Herculean efforts of historians and Holocaust researchers,
>such as Dr. Piper, and the desire of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum
>to officially reflect the historically accepted estimates for the death
>toll at the Auschwitz extermination camp, it CAN be shown that Moran's
>absurd claim is exposed for the pathetic lie that it is! 
>
	Here you are saying the Poles did "offically  reflect  the
historically accepted estimates" when in fact they revised the
commonly accepted numbers. It wasn't the Simon Wiesenthal Center or
any other Jewish historian, it was the Poles. The fact is the Simon
Wiesenthal Center and its brethren allies has faught to keep revisions
>from  being widely publicized or taught in our schools. 


>> It could also be suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the 
>> Holocaust beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.
>
>It could also be suggested, given the above, that this is nothing more
>than yet another self-serving denier lie. 
>
>>  Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends
>
>Behold the Liar - Read a Moranic(tm) re-post by Moran!
>
>[snip]
>
>> WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
>> has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
>> number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
>> away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
>> "anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
>
>REALITY CHECK: In other words, Moran is lying through his teeth again and
>reposting this garbage for the FOURTH time. That he feels Holocaust
>denialism is "chipping away" at the historocity of the Holocaust simply
>underscores Moran's propensity for propaganda and his delusional state of
>mind. A state of mind, besides being delusional, that is driven by rampant
>anti-Semitism and sympathy to Nazi ideology. 
>
	The reposts really get you don't they? No one responded the first
three times and seeing that it wasn't going to go away now you panic.
None of your other dribble like the above is worth comment. It says
nothing. It is only charges of this or that, which you don't detail.
The reason you don't detail anything in support is because you have
nothing. You have nothing but raving. Thats all you have and that is
all you will ever have.


>Mark
>
>
>posted/e-mailed
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:36 PDT 1996
Article: 38807 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:11:17 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	A post received e-mail.

	From: Dene Bebbington <101547.1352@CompuServe.COM>
To: tm@pacificnet.net
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Organization: Home
Content-Length: 514

Tom Moran wrote:
> Here we have this testimony saying on a average day one large
> train came into Treblinka, and on rarer occasions two trains,
> whereas the testimony covered in the original post has Leleko 
> saying three trains a day came in on a average.

Is this another denier tactic, cast aspersions on eyewitness 
testimony?? I note with interest that you didn't deny the central 
point: that Jews were gassed at Treblinka.

-- 
Dene Bebbington

"... after all, who'd notice another madman around here?!"




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:37 PDT 1996
Article: 38809 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:35:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>	
># Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
># hours to cremate one body,
>
>The opinion of cremation experts was posted here, that, if you're only
>interested in disposing of the corpse, without having to worry about
>the appearance of the remains, much less than 2.5 hours are needed.
>
>But we all know you're a pathological liar. You cannot post about
>anything whatsoever without lying. That's also why you forged
>testimony of witnesses to the Holocaust, by including text they
>have never spoken.

	We've been through this before, right professor? You say I forged
testimony? Lets go through the sequence again. Post the "forgeries"
and then show they are forgeries. When you get done with that I'll cut
and paste where you said "I'm not saying Moran accually forged ..."

	How you got selected for a job at Brown, what with the others who
must have applied, is an indictment on our education system. What was
it professor that got you the position - assertive action?

>You must be very popular with the other Nazis. They must really
>admire a liar and forger of your caliber.

	"Other Nazis", professor? Prove I am a Nazi. Go for it. The whole
reputation of Brown University is riding on it.

>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:37 PDT 1996
Article: 38810 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers'
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:50:00 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Schluch, In the Belzec-Oberhauser
>trial:
>[Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard 
>Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 70-71]. 
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>After leaving the undressing barracks, I had to show the Jews the
>way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews
>the way they were convinced that they were really going to
>the baths. After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors
>were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians
>subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine
>which supplied the gas...
>
>I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish
>color. Some of them had their closed, other's eyes rolled. The
>bodies were dragged out of the gas chambers and inspected by a
>dentist, who removed finger rings and gold teeth...

	Blue lips and tips of noses? Is this a one time account of such a
thing?
	The dentist removed the rings? I thought the victims had to give
up their possessions before going to the gas chambers.
	Is this it, professor. Is this the extent of the testimony? Two
paragraphs? If this is the best you could extract, the rest must be,
well to insuffient to post.


>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:38 PDT 1996
Article: 38811 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Day of Rememberance
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:56:12 GMT
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	 4/17/96 in the N.Y. Times the report on the Jews holocaust
bombing of Lebanon's vital installations for survival like electrical
power plants that operate hospitals and such with American supplied
arms, mentioned the Jews eased up for "2 minutes" in respect for
Holocaust "Day of  Rememberance. 


	In the L.A.Times, same day, "Rotunda Rite in Rememberance of
Holocaust" it was reported that the main responsible parties for
supplying the arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite
in observance or Day of Rememberance.
	"Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony ..."

	It didn't say how many members of congress attended, but it also
reported that "Shortly after, the House passed, 420 - 0, a resolution
deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of the
Holocaust.
	It is probable that attempts were made to have the House ban the
right of anyone to deny the "reality" but this is all they dared right
now. But it could be a prelude.
	In the mean time our congress will be hard at work to see that
the Jews get all the things they need to continue their Holocaust in
the Mideast.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:39 PDT 1996
Article: 38812 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Beneficiaries of 'Assertive Action'?
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:58:48 GMT
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	D. Mittleman, University of Arizona

	J. Morris, University of Alberta

	M. Kelley, University of Arizona

	D. Keren, Brown University

	R. Green, Stanford University

	A. Dershowitz, Harvard University

	D. Goldhagen, Harvard University

	D. Lipstadt, Emory University

        +


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:39 PDT 1996
Article: 38813 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Dictionary
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:06:17 GMT
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	Glossary of Holocaust Terms

Final solution: In Holocaust vernacular it literaly means 'We are
going to kill all the Jews'.

Selection/Selection process: The process of singling out certain
persons for the gas chamber. Whenever you see the term, it means that.
Some photographic evidence can be found in the Holocaust Museum
sponsored book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp", where in one
photo a group of arrivals at Auschwitz are seperated into men and
women, and captioned: "The arrival and selection of Hungarian Jews to
Auschwitz." The other photo shows a small group of all ages and sex by
some rail cars, also: "Arrival and selection of Hungarian Jews at
Auschwitz.".

Neo-Nazi: Anyone who disbelieves in any part of the Holocaust story.

Gas: 1. Fumigation pellets.

Eyewitness/witness account: Documents produced that contain a
statement by a person said to have saw something or heard something.
Quite often the style and the scope of the narrative from one witness
to another is indistiguishable.

Crematoria: Not necessarily to mean the process of cremation only.	
The whole kit and kaboodle, a facility (building) for the whole
process of extermination, from gassing to cremation.

Gas chamber: A specific place or room were the actual process of
gassing took place. It could be a cellar right in among the barracks
of the inmates, Gestapos Office or a morgue/bomb shelter right next to
the SS hospital. It could also be a "little white house" or a "little
red house" also known as bunkers or huts. Also identified as a
connected surface annex to a larger building.

Introduction: Dropping in the pellets of fumigant.

Introduction system: Holes in tops or sides of the gassing chambers.
Fomerly; shower heads. The belief in this was abandoned when someone
ask how it was possible to put pellets through shower heads.

Mass grave: Any place where it is said that up to 2,000,000 were
buried. 

Mass extermination: The process of killing up to 2,000 people in any
one procedure totaling up to 24,000 a day and 2,000,000 a year.

Oven, Furnace: A chamber that is heated coke. The chambers at
Ausxhwitz were about the size of a refrigerator and could cremate two
hundred people a day., where bodies were cremated or refuse burned.

Zyklon/Zyklon A: Product(s) that should exist in regard to the known
existing product of Zyklon B.

Zyklon B: A product name for a German fumigant.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:40 PDT 1996
Article: 38859 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:06:11 GMT
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Lines: 73
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <31a31339.3502127@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) writes:
>>
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>>>                            EXCERPT 
>>>               From Interrogration of Defendant
>>>
>>>February 21, 1945. Lieutenant EPPEL', Investigator of the Fourth
>>>Department of the "SMERSH" Directorate of Counterintelligence of the
>>>Second Belorussian Front interrogated as defendant -
>>>
>>>      LELEKO, Pavel Vladimirovich, born in 1922, native of the village
>>>      of Chaplinka, Chaplinka District, Nikolayev Region, Ukrainian,
>>>      citizen of the USSR.
>>
>>	This report like all the rest lacks a certain detail that one
>>might expect from a real hearing. It is more like some tale with a few
>>questions inserted. A question is asked and then Leleko goes off with
>>a extended comment and the interogator never poses any thing for
>>clarification. Even UFO story writers cover their stuff more
>>carefully.
>
>If this is all we had, then I would agree that there are some obscurities
>in this text.  OTOH, a better witness to refute would be Suchomel, whose
>interview with Lanzmann covers most of the essentials cited here.  Since
>you don't even MENTION Suchomel, then I submit that your deconstruction of
>this text is basically dishonest.  This ruins your credibility on this
>topic.
>
>There is a tendency to Either/Or the testimony.  Either it is always all
>true, or else it is always all false.  I can understand the motivations,
>and they need not be evil.  But surely even you would not deny, Tom Moran,
>that many Jews were put to death just because they were Jews.  As far as I
>am concerned, that is the point here.
>
	"Suchomel"? I am not aware of the person/witness. Maybe you
should post some of his testimony.

	The credibility of a witness is very important in the U.S. court
system. If witness testimony conflicts with other witness testimony
how is one to know who is telling the facts. I haven't read all
witness testimony,  have you? 

	You say the "point" is that many Jews died. I agree - many Jews
did probably die - and so did many others. How many Jews died and by
what means is the point. We're talking "Holocaust", "Hitlers war
against the Jews", "The Destruction of European Jewry", "Anatomy of
the Auschwitz Death camp", and all the other books and museums and
thousands of referrences in our medias.

	How many of these other ethnic groups and nationalities that died
have driven to capitalize on any history from the WW II? How many of
them are against historical review, how many of them have used it as
an excuse to justify suppresion and terrorism?

	This particular witness here is lying. It is testimonial fiction.
I would say it is the contrivance of a number of people.

	Aren't you the person who just posted something the other day,
where I responded that before I responded to the post I would have to
know if the response was serious or not? Did you ever come back and
address that?

	Now that this dealing with your attempted end run and evasion,
maybe you would like to deal with what is here, step by step. You be
the one to say how reasonable the testimony is. Step by step, just
like I did.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:41 PDT 1996
Article: 38897 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,alt.revisionism,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:36:12 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	When someone charges you with being a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic or
racist without substantial support, they are merely trying to silence
you, scare you into saying nothing, intimidate you, challenging your
right to speak.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 07:20:41 PDT 1996
Article: 38901 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CHARGES
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:40:56 GMT
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	What should one make of it if someone makes charges of
anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism and/or racism and can't or refuses to follow
up with an argument for proof?

	What would that make the charger?
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 11:00:31 PDT 1996
Article: 38997 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:21:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Moran wrote:
"Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz, barely
the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three bodies in twenty
minutes, as the Holocaust story has it."


Professor Keren then replied:
"The opinion of cremation experts was posted here, that, if you're
only interested in disposing of the corpse, without having to worry
about the appearance of the remains, much less than 2.5 hours are
needed."


	The professor makes much use of terms like "much less" in lieu of
more definitive quantities. Whatever the professor says, we're still
talking three bodies in twenty minutes instead of 2 1/2 hours for one
in modern day cremation facilities. As the Holocaust story has it, the
bodies had to be burned enough to be subject to pulverization and
totally free of any signs of what it was so the little kids could
spread it around the walk ways of Auschwitz to keep people from
slipping.   

	Does the professor have confidence in his own stuff? Evidentally
not since he had to rail a bit.

>The professor: 

>But we all know you're a pathological liar. You cannot post about
>anything whatsoever without lying. That's also why you forged
>testimony of witnesses to the Holocaust, by including text they
>have never spoken.
>
>You must be very popular with the other Nazis. They must really
>admire a liar and forger of your caliber.
>
	Now does that seem like it's coming from a person who has faith
in his post? And he's a professor no less. 


>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 24 16:40:13 PDT 1996
Article: 77757 of can.general
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: edm.general,ab.general,can.general,tor.general,alt.revisionism,van.general,calgary.general
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:47:47 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Heres one I got e-mail.


X-UIDL: 832425465.000
From: Jwpax@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 22:49:39 -0400
To: tm@pacificnet.net
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Content-Length: 356



"Ever heard of the Criminal Code?"

Now that is a heavy statement. Perhaps the person, Jwpax, will expand
on it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 00:39:59 PDT 1996
Article: 45550 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <319dda27.2856374@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <319dda27.2856374@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:24:48 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 01:14:30 PDT 1996
Article: 39069 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*ws hid scrolls for 40 years
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:40:29 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31a07671.3260787@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	The reason the Jews kept a lid on the contents of the Dead Sea
>	Scrolls...
>
>Mr. Moran, as usual, is making this up as he goes along.  The fact is
>that the scrolls were not published because the research team that
>was commissioned to study them, headed by a Christian, decided to
>keep them for themselves.
>
>What their motives were is open to question.  Most likely they wanted
>to hog the academic glory, though some say they were protecting
>Christian doctrine from heresy in the scrolls.  At any rate, only Mr.
>Moran pretends to know what the motivation was, but then again, he
>misidentified the culprits to begin with!
>
>	...is because they are an embarrassment.
>
>Not as much an embarassment as Mr. Morn himself!

	Really? where did you get these facts? They sound familiar. I got
my facts from the news papers as it was being reported. I also talked
with the Huntington Library curator, Mr. Moffet, now deceased. I also
got the exclusive scoop from the Library's photographer, that story
later.
	Now where did you say you got your story?


>--
>Harry Katz
>
>An Israelite is prohibited from deceiving even an idolator.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 01:14:31 PDT 1996
Article: 39082 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beneficiaries of 'Assertive Action'?
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:59:23 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 
>: 	D. Mittleman, University of Arizona
>: 
>: 	J. Morris, University of Alberta
>: 
>: 	M. Kelley, University of Arizona
>: 
>: 	D. Keren, Brown University
>: 
>: 	R. Green, Stanford University
>: 
>: 	A. Dershowitz, Harvard University
>: 
>: 	D. Goldhagen, Harvard University
>: 
>: 	D. Lipstadt, Emory University
>:
>:   W. Anderson, Emory University

>Moran, if you keep leaving me off these little lists of yours, I'm
>going to stop inviting you to parties.  I'm very offended, really.
>
>Even though I can't, for the life of me, figure out what you're
>talking about...
>
>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 01:14:32 PDT 1996
Article: 39083 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers'
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:02:18 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Professor, you posted some more eyewuitness testimony on 5/23 and
I deleted them by mistake. It was a Freudian delete. Can you e-mail
them to me so I can have a look?
										Thanks
                                                  Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 01:14:33 PDT 1996
Article: 39084 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Are Kurds evil?
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:16:08 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:39084 alt.conspiracy:53042

	
	According to writings in the N.Y. and/or the L.A. Times,
it all depends. 

	If the Kurds are fighting Iraq, Isreal's enemy, they are good.
If they are engaged in fighting in Turkey, they are evil.
If their training in Syria, another Israeli enemy, they are evil.

     A recent report had it that Turkey was going to allow Zionist
jets to fly training missions over Turkish mountains.

	Are the Kurds Evil? It all depends.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 01:14:33 PDT 1996
Article: 39085 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:24:27 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Thu, 23 May 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> >But surely even you would not deny, Tom Moran,
>> >that many Jews were put to death just because they were Jews.  As far as I
>> >am concerned, that is the point here.
>> >
>[snip]
>> 
>> 	You say the "point" is that many Jews died. I agree - many Jews
>> did probably die - and so did many others. How many Jews died and by
>> what means is the point. 
>
>Unless I'm very much mistaken, Mr. Moran has just avoided the essence of 
>Mr./Ms. Ehrlich's comment: note how Moran simply says "many Jews died," 
>but avoids acknowledged that the Nazis killed them "just because they 
>were Jews." That seems a rather telling omission.  So, let me put the 
>question to you more directly, Mr. Moran: do you acknowledge that the 
>Nazis deliberately killed Jews because they were Jews?  (We'll get into 
>numbers, means, and the Nazi genocide against other "untermenschen 
>later).  A simple question, Mr. Moran.  It will be interesting to see how 
>you answer it.
>
>> 	How many of these other ethnic groups and nationalities that died
>> have driven to capitalize on any history from the WW II? 
>
>Though not an ethnic group, gays have certainly made the Nazis' murders of 
>homosexuals a focus of their political actions--you are aware of the 
>significance of the pink triangle as a political symbol in the modern 
>gay-rights movement, are you not?  As for ethnic and national groups, the 
>Soviet Union used to make rather a big deal out of what they called the 
>"Great Patriotic War," and used the Nazi persecution of communists as 
>a central part of their political education program.  And remembrance 
>of the Holocaust is also very much a part of modern Gypsy culture and 
>history.
>
>But let's stick to the central question: Do you acknowledge that the 
>Nazis murdered Jews for no other reason than that they were Jews?
>
>
	You say "the Nazis" killed Jews simply because they were Jews. I
would say some Nazis killed some Jews because they were Jews. 


>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"It would be such a relief to think the people in charge knew 
>what they were doing, even if they were bent on mischief....[but] 
>stupidity is far more important than conspiracy in determining 
>man's fate.  Simple dumbness, along with luck, chance, and 
>accident, runs well ahead of conspiracy in the causation category."  
>				--Molly Ivins
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 01:14:34 PDT 1996
Article: 39086 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beneficiaries of 'Assertive Action'?
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:26:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <31a5b8ea.855456@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a46ef8.3655368@news.pacificnet.net> <4o2f7u$cts@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>Mr. Moran, what is "assertive action", and what is this list of
>people and universities supposed to mean?
>
	We'll wait and see if anyone can figure it out.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 07:26:56 PDT 1996
Article: 39161 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Time For A Showdown
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:12:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <31a70735.424460@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  `	Does this mean you are admitting you were wrong in saying Moran
>>  said anything about the "KKKK" which you put into quote marks?
>
>	Absolutely not.  In fact the exact opposite is true.  You said what you 
>said L'il Tommy:  you opened your lying mouth to the world and attributed acts of 
>the KKKK to a "Jewish conspiracy."  You still won't even bother to deny it.

	Mr. Edeiken was putting the "KKKK" in quote marks, but after
numerous times asking Mr.Edeiken exactly where did he see Moran type
the words "KKKK" and his follow up with the same he has backed off on
putting the "KKKK" in quote marks.

	He keeps saying Moran opened his mouth and said the KKKK was a
"Jewish conspiracy".  But Mr.Edeiken will not be able to show this is
true. He will just continue to say it without citing exactly where. 

	Mr.Edeiken is a sick puppy.
>>  
>>  	Mr.Edeiken, can you show where Moran said anything about the
>>  "mayor of Philadelphia"?
>
>	Sure can, L'il Tommy.  In your post "Time for a Showdown" in which 
>you wrote about a time when you were in "the Philadelphia area and the mayor of 
>that town..."  and then you invented, from your own lying little mind, some 
>incident.  The fact that have produced neither the date or the name of the mayor 
>of Philadelphia raises a strong presumption that you were lying.

	"Eventually, the word got around the Jewish community and the
attacks on the cross rose up in other cities across the country. Moran
being in the Philadelphia area one Christmas came across an article
about one of the attacks were the mayor of the town stated they
weren't going to allow the Jews to use the display of religious
symbols "for political reasons".'"  

	Is this the passage Mr.Edeiken? I can see how you have mistaken
the wording. Nevertheless it does say "in the Philadelphia area" and
it was one of the towns in the area. I will make it a little more
clear in the future.

>>  
>>  	Mr.Edeiken, you said you had a trial to do in Scranton, and when
>>  you got back you would present proof you lost 160 relatives in the
>>  Holocaust, and yet here you are every day and no proof.
>
>	I am still commuting three hours a day.  It is expected that the trial will 
>be over this week.
>
	Okay, Mr.Edeiken says he will post the proof next week. Proof
Mr.Edeiken, or are you going to just list a bunch of names or are you
going to attempt even the remotest substantiation? You have already
posted a fictitious name, so it is highly concievable you will do the
same with the 160 names. He says he has a court case but it is
possible he is stalling for time or hoping it will all go away and be
forgotten. Mr.Edeiken, what is the name of the court case your working
on so I can call the Scranton Court House and check it out. 
	Mr.Edeiken says he has a court case going and he has a three hour
drive every day. It could be true. 
	Mr.Edeiken, should we assume your court case starts each day in
the morning, say 8:30 to 9:00 or so, and then runs throughout the day,
leaving you with the hour and a half ride to there and a hour and a
half back? Just want to figure out if your lying again by checking the
times your posts register with your service.
	 

>>  	Mr.Edeiken, why did you post a person by the name of Rachelle
>>  worked at the Allentown Public Library and no person by that name
>>  works there?
>
>	As you well know, a pseudonym was used so that you could not call 
>her on the telephone.  "Rachelle" is still there.  And she still thinks that you are an 
>asshole.

	"As you well know ..." Mr.Edeiken? How would anyone "well know"
Mr.Edeiken? You mean becasue you said it? 
	There is no Rachelle. Rachelle - never was, never will be, she
doesn't exist - she's a Mr.Edeiken lie. Deeper and deeper goes the
disturbed little person. The dubber of "liar" and yet exposed as the
top liar in the group. A sick puppy. 
	

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 09:31:40 PDT 1996
Article: 39162 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Foundering, Striking Bottom
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:12:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <31a7073f.434182@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a46e3a.3465602@news.pacificnet.net> 
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


>tommy,

>Do you really want to announce to all of us in such a forceful manner that
>you are so far from original that you are derivative from the illiterate
>H*ber?  Well, allright, if you insist -- but please be aware that it's one
>thing to be a sheep, but quite another to be a sheep following a month
>behind the rest of the flock.  This useless, meaningless crap was posted
>several weeks ago.  It was a waste of bandwidth then, as it is now.
>
>Get a fucking clue.
>
>-JMS

	You forgot to say "shalom", remember?

	When a Jew says shalom it can mean:


	"Tom Moran -- an incompetent, gullible, cowardly, race baiting
imbecile.

Wow.  How satisfying.

Smooches and Shalom, motherfucker"

Jason Silverman



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 09:31:40 PDT 1996
Article: 39164 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beneficiaries of 'Assertive Action'?
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:13:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <31a70753.453845@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31a46ef8.3655368@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>         D. Mittleman, University of Arizona
>> 
>>         J. Morris, University of Alberta
>> 
>>         M. Kelley, University of Arizona
>> 
>>         D. Keren, Brown University
>> 
>>         R. Green, Stanford University
>> 
>>         A. Dershowitz, Harvard University
>> 
>>         D. Goldhagen, Harvard University
>> 
>>         D. Lipstadt, Emory University
>> 
>
>          T. Moran, Trailer in the Ozarks. 
>
	The righteous Mr. Van Alstine. He says all people who live in
trailer parks or the Ozarks are, are, are - what are they
Mr. Van Alstine? What are you trying to say?
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 09:31:41 PDT 1996
Article: 39165 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What about the other ashes?
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:13:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 18
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	All kinds of Holocaust tales exist about what was done with the
ashes of the cremated victims.
	They were buried, dumped in ponds and rivers, used to fertilize
Polish fields and even scattered around the camp in winter to keep
people from slipping on the ice.

	But what about the other ashes? The ones from the firing chambers
of the crematoria? The ashes, and the clinkers, rock hard
conglomerates that weld together in the process of burning?

	If it took so many kilos of coke to burn one victim we should
assume there was considerable residue to dispose of.

	What happened to these other ashes?

	And, why didn't the Germans get rid of all the ashes at once,
commonly?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat May 25 09:31:42 PDT 1996
Article: 39173 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:23:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <31a70964.983541@news.pacificnet.net>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <4o63jg$3dn@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
>Giwer) wrote:
>
>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>>In article <31a31372.3559030@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>>>	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
>>>	older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to
>>>	newer accounts that are currently written in stone.
>
>>>Once again, having nothing of substance to contribute, Mr. Moran
>>>resorts to baiting Jews.  Mr. Moran is fond of demanding a death
>>>certificate for each victim of the Nazis, but feels free to libel and
>>>slander Jews without so much as a shred of evidence.
>
>>>Mr. Moran is, to use his own words, corrupt, and insults the
>>>intelligence of the readers of this newsgroup.
>
>[snip]
>
>As is his alter-ego echo-clone, the Giwer-troll, who proceeded to
>demonstrate this by his gratuitous non-contribution to the discussion
>(herewith deleted for the sake of brevity).  Because ... as others
>have noted ...
>
>Giwer is a troller whose only interest  is in causing fights.  While
>he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied about what has been
>said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
>document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
>refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
>engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
>complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems
>to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 

	Hilary, why don't you post sonmething like 'The Best of Moran'
like I do to list your capacities? Go for it, Hilary.



>    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
>    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:36 PDT 1996
Article: 39231 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Memoir and 'Revisionist' Insanity
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:42:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <31a70ddd.2128563@news.pacificnet.net>
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Greg Raven  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>> Hold it asshole, I don't to claim to be an expert on anything. But I
>> was in World War Two, I went into five main camps and several
>> sub-camps, I saw the gas chambers, and the piled up dead bodies, and
>> the trenches dug by bull dozers to bury forty or fifty thousand people
>> at Belsen, by our British comrades in arms. Where did you get all of
>> your wonderful knowledge? From revisionist slimey books, written by
>> kooks, just like you.  And something else, pal, I can still fly
>> multiple-engined air planes Piece of cake once you do it for several
>> thousand hours.
>
>In an earlier, different discussion, after I asked for for specifics of the gas 
>chamber you claimed you saw at Dachau (the one that virtually no one else now 
>claims to have seen, and which is generally agreed never to have existed), you 
>waffled, first indignantly claiming that you had seen such a device, then 
>admitting that you might not have seen it, then boldly claiming that I was wrong 
>to question you because you are a veteran.
>
>It's not that I don't trust your memory as much as the fact that the woman who for 
>many years has been acknowledged as the expert on Dachau, Barbara Distel, tells me 
>that there was no gas chamber at Dachau. I would appreciate it if you could clear 
>up this matter for us.

	Mr. Ferree isn't capable of responding to this. The only thing
forthcoming will be a tirade.

>> The wonder of it all is, not that some people can not comprehend the
>> enormity of millions of innocent people being murdered by A. Hitler
>> and his gang of Nazi thugs, no one really wants to believe that any
>> people could possibly be so inhumane to so many other humans.
>
>If only Hitler had used multi-engine bombers to murder thousands of innocent 
>civilians instead of those disappearing gas chambers; he'd be a hero instead of 
>Satan incarnate.
>
>-- 
>Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
>PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:37 PDT 1996
Article: 39232 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!inquo!bofh.dot!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hate Material will NOT BE Tolerated!
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:46:29 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <31a70e80.2291141@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	When someone charges you with being a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic or
>>  racist without substantial support, they are merely trying to silence
>>  you, scare you into saying nothing, intimidate you, challenging your
>>  right to speak.
>
>	When someone attributes the acts of the KKKK to a "Jewish 
>conspiracy" he is attempting disparage Jews by propagating a lie.
>
>	--YFE
	
	Keep up the good work Mr.Edeiken. Now that you have dropped the
quote marks from KKKK which you have attributed to Moran twenty times
over the last two or three weeks maybe you can get around to the rest.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:38 PDT 1996
Article: 39260 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: A revisionist FAQ (1)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:25:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:


	To any new comers to alt.revisionism.

The methods of this post are the way things should be done when trying
to determine a truth or a fiction. Read this post and take note of the
directness of it all and then compare it with the responses that may
follow. 
                                                 Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:38 PDT 1996
Article: 39267 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:30:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <31a709cf.1089876@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a31629.4253996@news.pacificnet.net> <4o5f88$64b@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31a31629.4253996@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
>	hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz,
>	barely the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three
>	bodies in twenty minutes, as the Holocaust story has it.
>
>The Nazis did not have to collect the ashes for the victims' survivng
>relatives, nor did the bodies have to be burned inside of coffins.
>This has been explained to Mr. Moran before, but he has never, ever let
>facts stand in the way of his favorite pastime, Jew-bashing!

	Maybe you should expand on what relevance collecting ashes for
relatives has to do with the gross differnce in cremation times.
	I don't know if cremation procedures require the bodies be in
coffins or not. Neverheless I saw this offered before where I pointed
out the wood would increase the rates since it is combustiable. Or are
you saying asbestos coffins are used?
	We are talking up 25 bodies being cremated in a 2 1/2 hour period
in the 1944 cremation ovens as opposed to 1 body in modern ovens
aren't we?

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Let thy house be open wide as a refuge, and let the poor be cordially
>received within thy walls.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:39 PDT 1996
Article: 39357 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:08:19 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31a865b9.321805@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:


>
>          _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582:
>
>                    THE CRUCIFIXION OF JEWS MUST STOP!
>                           By MARTIN H. GLYNN
>                  (Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)
>
>

	Giwer, whats the story with the date, "1919"?



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:40 PDT 1996
Article: 39358 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The best of Nizkor
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:08:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 18
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	"Very true, Mr. Van Alstine.  However, I really didn't think it
would be fair to *totally* disappoint Moran, since he has demonstrated
his ability to master certain skills (granted the "mastery" has
resulted in very mediocre content).  Please see my "announcement"
under "Tommy's Invite Accepted"'"

Posted and e-mailed to Mr. Van Alstine (but _not_ to Mr. Moran, since
my records show that he is still in one of his "I don't read e-mails
anyway" phases)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:41 PDT 1996
Article: 39359 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:08:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <31a865e6.366899@news.pacificnet.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31a31372.3559030@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
>	older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to
>	newer accounts that are currently written in stone.
>
>Once again, having nothing of substance to contribute, Mr. Moran
>resorts to baiting Jews.  Mr. Moran is fond of demanding a death
>certificate for each victim of the Nazis, but feels free to libel and
>slander Jews without so much as a shred of evidence.
>
>Mr. Moran is, to use his own words, corrupt, and insults the
>intelligence of the readers of this newsgroup.


	Now that you have made your opening statement, maybe you would
like to present the evidence for your announcement. Or is that it?
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Be humble to thy superior, affable to thy inferior, meet every man with
>friendliness.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:41 PDT 1996
Article: 39360 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:08:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31a865f7.384365@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a31629.4253996@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
>hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz, barely
>the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three bodies in twenty
>minutes, as the Holocaust story has it.

	See "Auschwitz: A revisionist FAQ [1]" by Jean-Francois Beaulieu
for a thorough honest treatment on the subject.
	The crematoria rate at Auschwitz is a lead shoe on Humpty Dumpty.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:42 PDT 1996
Article: 39361 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beneficiaries of 'Assertive Action'?
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:09:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <31a86600.393153@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a46ef8.3655368@news.pacificnet.net>  <31a70753.453845@news.pacificnet.net> <25MAY199609105191@cmi.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <31a70753.453845@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <31a46ef8.3655368@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>>>moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>>         D. Mittleman, University of Arizona
>>>> 
>>>>         J. Morris, University of Alberta
>>>> 
>>>>         M. Kelley, University of Arizona
>>>> 
>>>>         D. Keren, Brown University
>>>> 
>>>>         R. Green, Stanford University
>>>> 
>>>>         A. Dershowitz, Harvard University
>>>> 
>>>>         D. Goldhagen, Harvard University
>>>> 
>>>>         D. Lipstadt, Emory University
>>>> 
>>>
>>>          T. Moran, Trailer in the Ozarks. 
>>>
>>	The righteous Mr. Van Alstine. He says all people who live in
>>trailer parks or the Ozarks are, are, are - what are they
>>Mr. Van Alstine? What are you trying to say?
>
>    He is unfairly insulting them by comparing them with you.
>
>    By the way, I am honored to be included on the same list with
>    Dershowitz, Goldhagen, and Lipstadt.  But I doubt I deserve it.  My
>    contributions are minimal compared to them.

	My heroes are more like Plato, Socrates, Abraham Lincoln, Emmauel
Kant, Newton, George Orwell - well you get the picture, don't you? You
know, an ideal with a bit more substance than three blind mice
obsessed with Jewish things.


>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:43 PDT 1996
Article: 39363 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tommy's Invite Accepted
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:09:57 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <31a86615.413695@news.pacificnet.net>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In Message-ID: <31a70964.983541@news.pacificnet.net> the denier in
>search of a persona hurled the gauntlet onto the table:
>
>	Hilary, why don't you post sonmething [sic] like 'The Best 	
>	of Moran' like I do to list your capacities? Go for it, Hilary.
>
>Why, thank you Li'l Tommy.  I'm kind of busy right now working out the
>details for shipping the latest and greatest ZOG decoder rings (Yale,
>yours should be the first one to arrive.  Once I've perfected that, I
>know the others will be a piece of cake).  Probably won't take me more
>than a few days, though.  And just as soon as I've got it finished,
>I'll get right to work on this.
>
>Coming soon to a newsreader near you:  The Morphing of Tom Moran:  a
>brief history of his evolution from passive deluded denier to active
>(but inept) deluding distortionist.
>
>hro


	Looks like some long nights are in store for the Nizkor staff.
Hilary won't be able to handle it alone. McVay and McCarthy and any
others will be gleening over Moran's stuff to see what they can come
up with.
	


>
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:44 PDT 1996
Article: 39364 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:11:50 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
	It is tacit declaration they know they would lose, that they
don't have faith in their position, that they know deep down inside or
are conciously aware their own position sucks. 
	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
open discussion on the Holocaust. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:44 PDT 1996
Article: 39367 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:17:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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				     Every day
		
	yellow school buses line up outside of the Holocaust museums. The
American kids file out and into the interiors of the Ministries of
Love where three fingers are held up and the kids are ask, 'How many
do you see?' The kids shout 'We see three'. The guide says 'No. You
see two'. The kids all yell back 'No we see three'. Then they are
taken through the Ministry of Love, they can't turn around, or roam
around, they have to run the full package. At the end, the guide holds
up three fingers and says, 'Now, how many do you see?' and the kids
all say 'Two'.
	Sort of like what happened to Winston Smith in George Orwell's
"1984" only without the rats being put to their throats. Not quite,
but the school curiculum requires.

	                                    





From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:45 PDT 1996
Article: 39385 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 15:15:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <31a86da1.2345627@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a31629.4253996@news.pacificnet.net> <31a865f7.384365@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	
>>	Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
>>hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz, barely
>>the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three bodies in twenty
>>minutes, as the Holocaust story has it.
>
>	See "Auschwitz: A revisionist FAQ [1]" by Jean-Francois Beaulieu
>for a thorough honest treatment on the subject.
>	The crematoria rate at Auschwitz is a lead shoe on Humpty Dumpty.
>
	As the Holocaust story has it, three to four bodies at a time
were cremated in each oven of Auschwitz. This is a necessary
contrivance of the story in order to show that the crematorias were
capable of disposing of the numbers alleged.

	Try this experiment.

	Build a wood fire and establish a good red hot bed of embers. Now
put on four pieces of two by four (2" X 4") construction lumber. Time
how long it takes them to burn to ashes. Now take four pieces and wire
them together tightly. Put them in the fire and time how long it takes
for the bundle to burn to ashes.
	A bundle of four pieces of two by four takes a lot longer to burn
to ashes than the four pieces just layed on the coals because the
surface area/volume ratio is smaller. It takes longer for the fire to
penetrate to the interior.
	Any camper who has had experience with campsite fires knows that
a large log will last a lot longer than a number of smaller logs of
same volume and wieght put on the fire. 

	The gist of the crematoria capacities is this.
Present day cremation facilities require an average of two hours to
reduce one body to ashes and the Holocaust story has it that the
German ovens in 1943 could burn over twenty.

	Would this mean that Holocaust claims would have us think there
is a special exclusion principle to physics when it comes to Holocaust
claims?

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:46 PDT 1996
Article: 39389 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Defacates On Us Agaqin
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:34:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31a70bee.1633469@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  	
>>  	According to writings in the N.Y. and/or the L.A. Times,
>>  it all depends. 
>>  
>>  	If the Kurds are fighting Iraq, Isreal's enemy, they are good.
>>  If they are engaged in fighting in Turkey, they are evil.
>>  If their training in Syria, another Israeli enemy, they are evil.
>>
>
>	Give us the dates and and editorials where either of these newspapers 
>referred to the Kurds as "evil."  Or is this just more of L'il Tommy's well-known mental 
>impairment -- lack of honesty?
>
>	--YFE

	I see you have properly put the word "evil" in quote marks as
stated by myself, but can you show where I put it in quote marks?



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:46 PDT 1996
Article: 39390 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another revision of alt.revision based thoughts
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:38:58 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <31a70d13.1926549@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <4o5tn3$17e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>
>>[A great deal of general info about patents which has no connection to
>what I wrote.]
>
>And (almost) concludes with this statement:
>
>>So, it would appear, contrary to your assertion, that a patent must not
>>only have something to do with what is being patented, but it must
>>_specifically_ state the "manner and process of making and using it, in
>>such full, clear, concise, and exact terms as to enable any person
>skilled
>>in the art to which it pertains, or with which it is most nearly
>>connected, to make and use the same."
>
>You substitute the word "patent" for my word "claim":
>
	This is one of their practices - to replace the poster's words
with their own words to respond to.


>> >Not according to the patent and to the book by Dr. Gerhard Peters,
>> >the leading scientist of the firm that manufactured Zyklon;
>> >according to these two sources, most of the cyanide gas is released
>> >within 10 minutes. (DK)
>> 
>> A claim in a patent often has nothing to do with the working item...(DT)
>
>That last line is quite true.  I have been through the lengthy patent
>process twice, and did considerable patent reading each time to research
>prior art.  In doing so, I was struck by how many claims there were in
>patents in areas that I am familiar with that were obviously
>exaggerations, improbabilities and in some case impossibilities.  Many of
>them (the claims) were never reduced to practice, although the basic item
>described was.  The attorneys explained to me that patent disclosures are
>typically made overly broad to cover as many incidental uses and
>configurations as possible in order to prevent someone's modifying the
>item or the use of same slightly and patenting it for an unprotected
>niche.  Patents require only that the disclosure meet the requirements
>outlined by the patent office, and that the examiner deems the
>descriptions to be feasible (hence the exclusion of perpetual motion
>machines as a class of items deemed infeasible because it is felt by state
>of the art science to be impossible).  Items do not have to be built or
>reduced to practice to receive a patent, contrary to those cartoons you
>see of the line of crackpot inventors with their gadgets sitting in the
>waiting room of a patent attorney.  It seems obvious on the face of it
>that they didn't trot a can of Zyklon-B down to the attorney or the patent
>office for a demo.  Nor are any test results required.  What you patent is
>a carefully described (overdescribed) novel, useful and feasible IDEA. 
>There's  a huge nickel refining plant north of Sudbury, Ontario that cost
>$500,000,000 to build 20 or 30 years ago and now sits abandoned.  Based on
>a new, patented German process, the plant was built only to find that the
>process was not feasible. No doubt its patent contained unsubstantiated
>and untried claims, as the sad investors discovered.
>
>This is illustrated in one of your other comments:
>
>>*It is, however, not necessary that an invention work perfectly. An
>>invention does not "lack utility [i.e. is not "usefull"] merely because
>>the particular embodiment disclosed in the patent lacks perfection or
>>performs crudely."
>
>In other words, if the 10 minutes turned out to be 1 hour, that wouldn't
>invalidate the patent.  But the point is this--a patent is not an
>engineering test document and it typically contains unproven claims.  So a
>patent claim that Zyklon-B would release the bulk of its HCN in 10 minutes
>is just a patent claim.  It says nothing about whether the material was
>ever built to do that, or even if it could be.  It only says that this was
>one of the inventor's intents, and it sounded feasible to the examiner.
>
>I have not had access to either the patent or the book you refer to.  Some
>time ago I promised to share with Mike Stein the full copy of the Rudolf
>Report if and when I obtained same, but I have not as yet.  So I am unable
>at this time to discuss the remainder of your post where you present 
>excerpts from these items and allude to others.  I will, however, make
>another attempt to obtain them with the hope of providing a response in
>the near future.  Thanks for your comments.
>_________________________________________________________
>
>"The kind of person who always insists
>on his way of seeing things
>can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:47 PDT 1996
Article: 39393 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Forgeries (Re: Crematorium Rates)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 15:57:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <31a87db2.6459509@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a31629.4253996@news.pacificnet.net>  <31a46810.1888266@news.pacificnet.net> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>It's quite funny that Tom Moran continues to deny he attempted
>to forge testimony of witnesses to the Holocaust.
>
>Moran, you *did* take a piece of testimony, and insert into it
>questions that were never asked, and answers that were never given.
>Moreover, in your original article, you *did not* say that
>these were your additions.
>
>Is this true or not?

	Professor, didn't you eventually have to admit, "I'm not actually
saying Moran forged the testimonies ..."?

	Professor, you keep bringing up this topic. Why is that? Don't
you have anything else?

	Professor, as stated, post the alleged forgeries here, again, and
we'll go from there. Isn't that way of empiricism?

	Professor, did you post or not,  "I'm not actually saying Moran
forged the testimonies ..."? True or false? 










>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 12:25:48 PDT 1996
Article: 39394 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dachau Gas Chamber  Real Thing!
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 15:59:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <31a87f85.6926152@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31A5C8A4.2209@rio.com>
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Subject:     Re: The Hoess Memoir and 'Revisionist' Insanity
>Sent:        5/23/96 6:39 AM
>Received:    5/22/96 10:37 PM
>From:        Greg Raven, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
>To:          Chuck Ferree, chuckf@rio.com
>
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>> Hold it asshole, I don't to claim to be an expert on anything. But I
>> was in World War Two, I went into five main camps and several
>> sub-camps, I saw the gas chambers, and the piled up dead bodies, and
>> the trenches dug by bull dozers to bury forty or fifty thousand people
>> at Belsen, by our British comrades in arms. Where did you get all of
>> your wonderful knowledge? From revisionist slimey books, written by
>> kooks, just like you.  And something else, pal, I can still fly
>> multiple-engined air planes. Piece of cake once you do it for several thousand hours.

	Mr. Ferree, could you discribe this gas chamber? How do you know
it was a gas chamber? Did someone point it out? Didn't you say you
were there the first day on liberation? Now tell the truth. How did
you think the people had died, that first day you were there?
	Mr. Ferree, how were you selected to give an account in "The Good
Old Days"? Certainly there must have been a number of others there.
After all, you were just the pilot of higher staff who must have been
more privy to matters than yourself. 
	I was also wondering how you came to accompany this higher staff
on their inspections? 


C u. M F t.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun May 26 17:34:58 PDT 1996
Article: 39501 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The Bodies Were Dragged Out Of the Gas Chambers'
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 15:19:45 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31a87643.4556083@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <4o0o28$pnr@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4o2ncv$jap@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4o3d0v$11t@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4o54qa$r7j@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4o3d0v$11t@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>
>>>Does Mr. Giwer have evidence that victims of CO poisoning can never look
>>>pinkish?   Does he think it's a binary operation?  Either all CO victims
>>>are cyanotic or else all CO victims are pinkish?  One wishes Mr. Giwer
>>>would be more explicit in what claim he is making.  Does he claim that
>>>CO victims are never cyanotic?  Does he claim that CO victims are never
>>>pinkish?  Of course, he will not give a straight answer because:
>>
>>	Trying to decieve people again?  
>
>When Mr. Giwer has no rational response he resorts to ad hominem
>attacks.  If Mr. Giwer is not trying to "decieve [sic]" anyone, then why
>won't he answer two simple questions.  Does Mr. Giwer have evidence
>contrary to what I posted from OSHA that shows that CO victims are never
>cyanotic?  Does Mr. Giwer have evidence that CO victims never appear
>pinkish?
>
>I thought not.  Watch for more ad hominem arguments from Mr. Giwer in
>this space.
>
	Does this mean you are against all ad hominem attacks or just
against whatever Giwer is up to?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 27 12:18:20 PDT 1996
Article: 39576 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, MORAN rides the short bus! (was Every Day, Yellow School Buses)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 17:47:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <31a897a0.1034402@news.pacificnet.net>
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jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>In article <31a86735.702545@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>                                      Every day
>>                 
>>         yellow school buses line up outside of the Holocaust museums. The
>> American kids file out and into the interiors of the Ministries of
>> Love where three fingers are held up and the kids are ask, 'How many
>> do you see?' The kids shout 'We see three'. The guide says 'No. You
>> see two'. The kids all yell back 'No we see three'. Then they are
>> taken through the Ministry of Love, they can't turn around, or roam
>> around, they have to run the full package. At the end, the guide holds
>> up three fingers and says, 'Now, how many do you see?' and the kids
>> all say 'Two'.
>>         Sort of like what happened to Winston Smith in George Orwell's
>> "1984" only without the rats being put to their throats. Not quite,
>> but the school curiculum requires.
>> 
>>                                       
>
>                        Every Day
>
>   little tommy moran boards the short bus to go to school.  Every day,
>his mommy packs him a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on wonder bread,
>with the crusts cut off of course.  tommy likes the driver of the short
>bus.  she has a big lap, like tommy's mommy, and sometimes she lets him
>sit on it while he drools on her ample bosom.
>
>   Every day in his class, tommy interrupts teacher.  The teacher will say
>"Class, I know you are old enough to be in the seventh grade, but today we
>will learn about the revolutionary war.  The revolution began in 1776,
>with the signing of the declaration of independence."
>
>Little tommy raises his hand and says "No teacher, the year was 1623 and
>it was the Magna Carta"
>
>The teacher just laughs and calls on another remedial student.  She is
>used to these little outbursts from little tommy.  Then she says "Class,
>who was the first Black man to be killed in the revolution?"
>
>Little tommy calls out, "There were no Negroes (sic) in the United Stated
>until 1965, when our society started to decline (according to Newt
>Gingrich).."
>
>Again, the teacher laughs.  She knows little tommy is learning nothing,
>but she also knows that he will never make anything of himself anyway. 
>She calls on another learning disabled child who answers "Crispus
>Attucks."
>
>And shortly before the bell rings, the teacher overhears tommy saying to
>some of his classmates, "The Nazis were the Jews _friends!_."  And just
>like she always does, the teacher chuckles at tommy's tomfoolery, while
>his classmates ignore him and walk to the short bus.
>
>And every day, tommy rides the short bus home from school, and his mommy
>asks him "What did you learn in school today," and tommy just drools and
>misquotes Orwell.
>
>JMS
>
>p.s., Shalom, tommy!


	Listen for this word if you should ever get into a discussion
about Israel with a Jew and your views aren't favorable. I have had it
directed my way many times, the "Shalom" word that is.

It can mean:


	"Tom Moran -- an incompetent, gullible, cowardly, race baiting
imbecile.

Wow.  How satisfying.

Smooches and Shalom, motherfucker"

Jason Silverman


In further definition it can mean 'fuck you'. It is also used to try
to embarrass your views. Like Orwellian "double speak". 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 27 15:38:56 PDT 1996
Article: 48840 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <31a99db8.126272@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <31a99db8.126272@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:29:46 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <31a9bc53.7961488@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-16.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 27 15:51:19 PDT 1996
Article: 39610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Remember the Children"
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:20:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <31a99de2.168070@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-16.pacificnet.net
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	"Remember the Children" is the most prevalant motto found posted
around the premises of the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. It
is displayed on the inside and on the outside.
	This motto "Remember the Children" definetly does not apply to
the Palestinian children who have their houses blown up or are barred
>from  medical treatment, have their food supply threatened, their
schools shut down and have been mowed down by bullets, all by the will
and by the tolerance of the Jewish state of Israel, which itself is
the child of the Holocaust story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 27 15:51:20 PDT 1996
Article: 39615 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tommy's Invite Accepted
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:58:06 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <31a9a67b.2369025@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4o7n0l$8fq@atlas.uniserve.com> <31a86615.413695@news.pacificnet.net> <4oakhe$jm5@atlas.uniserve.com>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <31a86615.413695@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
>- aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:
>
>>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>
>>>Coming soon to a newsreader near you:  The Morphing of Tom Moran:  a
>>>brief history of his evolution from passive deluded denier to active
>>>(but inept) deluding distortionist.
>>>
>>>hro
>
>>	Looks like some long nights are in store for the Nizkor staff.
>
>"Long nights"? "Nizkor staff"?  You mean as in *paid* employees?!  My,
>what a sense of humour you have, Li'l Tommy!  But thanks for these
>comments (I'll make a note to revise the "Does Tom Moran have a sense
>of humour?" section accordingly.)

	" *paid* "? 


>
>>Hilary won't be able to handle it alone. McVay and McCarthy and any
>>others will be gleening over Moran's stuff to see what they can come
>>up with.
>
>Oh, dear!  Poor Li'l Tommy.  My apologies, it seems that I have
>inadvertently given you a grossly exaggerated idea of your own
>importance.  I would hate to think that _I_ have contributed to your
>becoming a legend in your own mind.  
>
>Please forgive me, I'll try not to let it happen again.
>
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 27 15:51:21 PDT 1996
Article: 39617 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Did the Ashes Go?
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:30:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <31a9a8b6.2940190@news.pacificnet.net>
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>Prince Myshkin (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: 	Of course the ashes will still form a layer of sediment in the
>: nearby ponds.  Yet no one reports finding it.  Then perhaps, no
>: one looked.
>
>Of course, in the television series "The Ascent of Man," Jacob
>Bronowski stood in one of those ponds and held some of those ashes in
>his hands.  You can see a photograph of him doing so in the book version.

	Really? You report here there is a photo of someone standing in a
swamp and holding up some ashes? What is this like? Does he have a big
wad of swamp gloop drooling down off of his hand? Should any viewer
accept this as evidence. What could a viewer determine from this
posture other than what any commentary would say? 
	One real method for the investigation would be to take core
samples and look for the ash layer. Then it would be necessary to
determine they are human ashes.
	Personally I think the ash question is really moot since any ash
left over from cremation would be very small. 
	Considering a million people are said to have been exterminated
and cremated, with maybe 700,000 being cremated in the ovens, as the
story goes, we would have less than 1/2 pound of ashes left over,
times the 700,000, 350,000 pounds divided by 2000, which would come
out to only 175 tons.
	I've seen the ashes of human remains after cremation and the real
wieght would be closer to 4 ounces each or about 85 tons in the case
above.
	


>But how much better can we expect from our resident troll?  Apparently,
>he has given up on trying to provoke people with arguments that even
>appear reasonable.  I guess he hopes that if he acts like an anti-Semitic
>idiot, we'll all get mad at him.  Fat chance.
>
>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"It would have been like discussing sundials with a bat."



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 27 15:51:22 PDT 1996
Article: 39630 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, MORAN rides the short bus! (was Every Day, Yellow School Buses)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:51:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <31a9b13a.5120218@news.pacificnet.net>
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jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>In article <31a897a0.1034402@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:
>> 
>> >                        Every Day
>> >
>> >   little tommy moran boards the short bus to go to school.  Every day,
>> >his mommy packs him a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on wonder bread,
>> >with the crusts cut off of course.  tommy likes the driver of the short
>> >bus.  she has a big lap, like tommy's mommy, and sometimes she lets him
>> >sit on it while he drools on her ample bosom.
>> >
>> >   Every day in his class, tommy interrupts teacher.  The teacher will say
>> >"Class, I know you are old enough to be in the seventh grade, but today we
>> >will learn about the revolutionary war.  The revolution began in 1776,
>> >with the signing of the declaration of independence."
>> >
>> >Little tommy raises his hand and says "No teacher, the year was 1623 and
>> >it was the Magna Carta"
>> >
>> >The teacher just laughs and calls on another remedial student.  She is
>> >used to these little outbursts from little tommy.  Then she says "Class,
>> >who was the first Black man to be killed in the revolution?"
>> >
>> >Little tommy calls out, "There were no Negroes (sic) in the United Stated
>> >until 1965, when our society started to decline (according to Newt
>> >Gingrich).."
>> >
>> >Again, the teacher laughs.  She knows little tommy is learning nothing,
>> >but she also knows that he will never make anything of himself anyway. 
>> >She calls on another learning disabled child who answers "Crispus
>> >Attucks."
>> >
>> >And shortly before the bell rings, the teacher overhears tommy saying to
>> >some of his classmates, "The Nazis were the Jews _friends!_."  And just
>> >like she always does, the teacher chuckles at tommy's tomfoolery, while
>> >his classmates ignore him and walk to the short bus.
>> >
>> >And every day, tommy rides the short bus home from school, and his mommy
>> >asks him "What did you learn in school today," and tommy just drools and
>> >misquotes Orwell.
>> >
>> >JMS
>> >
>> >p.s., Shalom, tommy!
>> 
>> 
>>         Listen for this word if you should ever get into a discussion
>> about Israel with a Jew and your views aren't favorable. I have had it
>> directed my way many times, the "Shalom" word that is.
>> 
>> It can mean:
>> 
>> 
>>         "Tom Moran -- an incompetent, gullible, cowardly, race baiting
>> imbecile.
>> 
>> Wow.  How satisfying.
>> 
>> Smooches and Shalom, motherfucker"
>> 
>> Jason Silverman
>> 
>> 
>> In further definition it can mean 'fuck you'. It is also used to try
>> to embarrass your views. Like Orwellian "double speak". 
>
>tommy, I am well aware of what I wrote to you, and every intelligent
>person who read it (not you) is aware that it was said in sarcasm.  Of
>course, the same interpretation applies to this most recent instance.  By
>posting your little deep thoughts, you are simply showcasing your
>stupidity.  For your own sake and the sake of your future Jewish
>grandchildren, stop.  
>
>Sarcasm is not "Orwellian doublespeak."  This is precisely an example of
>your special ed caliber reading of Orwell alluded to in the foregoing
>post.  I suggest you reread my post.  You just might learn something about
>yourself.


 JMS

"p.s., Shalom, tommy!"
 
 
         Listen for this word if you should ever get into a discussion
 about Israel with a Jew and your views aren't favorable. I have had
it directed my way many times, the "Shalom" word that is.
 
 It can mean:
 
 
         "Tom Moran -- an incompetent, gullible, cowardly, race
baiting imbecile.
 
 Wow.  How satisfying.
 
 Smooches and Shalom, motherfucker"
 
 Jason Silverman


	Jason, I take special note of your post signing "p.s., shalom,
tommy" which I take as a reiteration of your first application. 
	All we have now is your first use of the word in the context you
gave it, my analysis, your reiteration and your subsequent alibi.




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 27 15:51:23 PDT 1996
Article: 39646 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust "Museum of Tolerance"
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:31:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	This is the name of the Holocaust museum in Los Angeles,
California, formerly known as the "The Simon Wiesenthal Museum", or
something like that.
	The phantom motto of the "Museum of Tolerance" could be something
like, 'The sponsors of the Museum of Tolerance do not tolerate any
opposition to the contents and conclusions of the Museum of
Tolerance'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon May 27 20:47:25 PDT 1996
Article: 39712 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:39:43 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 45
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>	
># The Holocaust story has been modified extensively over the years
># with many places, methods and numbers being deleted from the story
># accounts.
>
>Typical nonsense from our resident liar and forger.
>
	Professor, are you saying the Hoilocaust story has not been
modified over the years as to numbers, places and methods?

	Professor, when you say someone is a "liar" and a "forger", is
this it, or do have the evidence. As it stands, your dubbing is only
an announcement.

	As to the "liar" term, are you lying when you imply their have
been no changes made to the facts of the Holocaust?



># The current popular figure for the number of Jews said to have
># been exterminated is 6,000,000. Six million. 
># Does anyone know, when was the first time this 6,000,000 figure
># was announced?
># The earliest date that it was published? 
>
>Why don't you do your homework yourself? Or are you too busy
>forging more testimonies?
>
>AFAIK, the earliest mention of this figure is from 1946; it was
>given by the Anglo-American committee which studied the Nazi
>genocide. Actually, the figure given was 5.7 million.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue May 28 06:59:29 PDT 1996
Article: 39793 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Condolences to Memorial Day
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 16:29:58 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 5
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	To all those who died fighting to create and preserve the the
basic freedoms of our system, number one - The First Amendment - the
right to freedom of speech - the right to question history - I hope it
wasn't all in vain.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue May 28 13:57:20 PDT 1996
Article: 39840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 16:42:46 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 25
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>Really pisses you off, huh, Moran. You think, these students shouldn't 
>be taught about history. Factual history. I do it too, by speaking at 
>schools, along with other panel members who have first hand knowledge 
>of the Nazi perpetrated Holocaust. I tell the kids what I actually saw 
>with my own eyes. The other panel members do the same. We want them to 
>know about the Holocaust, the truth about the Holocaust, and also 
>about bigotry, and hate mongers, and other assholes of the world.
>They should bring over German, and Austrian kids to see this museum. 
>In Poland, every student, must by law visit Auschwitz and take the 
>tour, and learn from scholors, what happened in their country.
>

	Chuck, 300,000 German students visit Auschwitz every year. The
more the merrier. I would think that most people who visit Auschwitz
would come away with some heavy doubts. There just isn't anything
there to sway the mind. Much of the complex is off limits and whatever
isn't is deficient.
	Let them go, they hear of the doubts later, look back to their
visit, and click, the light bulb goes on.
	



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue May 28 20:19:14 PDT 1996
Article: 39876 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Human fat fuel
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:11:54 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <31ab096c.633889@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3-22.pacificnet.net
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	As the Holocaust story has it, large pits were dug where
thousands of bodies were dumped in each one, the bodies doused with a
initial flammable substance, ignited and there after the fire was
sustained with human fat that drained off to a basin at the end.
	If we picture this we would have to recognize that the running,
seeping fat would have to be already hot and in a highly ignitable
state.
	Take kerosene/oil burners for instance. These fuels usually
require pre heating after which the fuel enters the furnace in the
form of a vapor. Once the fuel is super heated in the preheating
system it is many more times flammable than when in its cool liquid
stage and could even be as flammable as gasoline.

	Now what kept the flames from accompaning the seeping fat as it
entered into this alleged basin?

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 06:03:06 PDT 1996
Article: 39932 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Cultured McVay
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:34:14 GMT
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Under Webcrawler > Revisionism > "Green Eggs Report" we are given
a brief bio on McVay, and his photo, for any one who wants to see the
face of the collaborator himself.
	The report states at one place that McVay was retired and at
another that he was unemployed when he began whatever he's up to now.
	Giving us the warm human side of McVay we can click up "trivia"
where we are given the following life interests of the person. 


beer:	      Okanagan Springs Old English Porter
champagne:    Dom Perignon, of course.
cognac:       Remy Martin Grand Champagne
comedian:     John Cleese
comedy group: Monty Python's Flying Circus (who else?)
dog:          "Tilly" (Bassett Hound)
hideaway:     Astoria, Oregon
lady:         (she knows who she is)
mead:         Chateau Bumrot '96 (Happy, Harry?)
pianist:      Eva (Hi, sweetheart; welcome home!)
politician:   Pierre Trudeau
resolution:   Never to let Lucy hold that football again.
sports cars:  MGTD & BGT, Austin-Healy Sprite, Lotus 7 Mk IV
stout:        Guiness, of course!
wine (red):   Geisweiler Beaune	 
wine (white): yetch 

        I personally don't know what McVay was before he became
"retired" or "unemployed" and took up collaboration, but it seems he
would like to have his wine cellars and fancy cars and perhaps he
found a way to have it.
	Actually it might be difficult to visualize a man of culture from
the list, more of a picture of a mod squad yuppy. Considering this bio
of interests, we wonder what kind of history he had fighting "hatred"
and injustice before he somehow got all hooked up with what he's doing
now.
	Well, anyway, his bio does him injustice. It doesn't mention any
book(s) he might like when in fact he is very well read in the one and
only, holiest of holy, libra maximus, IT, "The Holocaust Almanac".




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 06:03:08 PDT 1996
Article: 39946 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 17:01:09 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 12
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>Really pisses you off, huh, Moran. 

      Chuck, I forgot to respond to this sentence. Chuck, I don't get
"pissed off", I post you respond "pissed off". Its on the record. My
posts, your responses.

	Keep it up Chuck. Your doing great work for the revisionist,
whether you know it or not.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 06:03:09 PDT 1996
Article: 39956 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:10:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <31ab0945.594618@news.pacificnet.net>
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>Won't somebody please hit Moran over the head with at least a frying 
>pan? This no brainer, haunts the internet for anything which will help 
>him look good. And what does he come up with? This French guy, who 
>asks really dumb questions. 
>Moran, do your own research, like everyone else. Quit stealing other 
>peoples stuff, and also quit re-writing other people's posts, like you 
>did with my Dachau gas chamber bit. That's plain old chicken-shit, 
>pal!
>
	Mr.Chuck, what does Mr.Beaulieu's being a "French guy" have to do
with anything? 
	
	I would say if a number of examples of Mr. Beaulieu's posts were
presented to a class of fourth graders, along side of an equal number
of your posts, the kids would be able to recognize the superiority of
the one as opposed to the inferiority of the other.






>
>Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:
>> 
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >       The Holocaust story has been modified extensively over the years
>
>True, but some modifications are in order, and many are just pure 
>opinions, which in a real crap game, don't count.
>
>Chuck Ferree



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 09:57:09 PDT 1996
Article: 39997 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:19:57 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 55
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Professor, are you saying the Hoilocaust story has not been
># modified over the years as to numbers, places and methods?
>
>Not really. Take the most important single piece of data - the
>number of Jews murdered by the Nazis. It hardly changed. There's
>a range of numbers, but it's rather tight. Nothing like the
>wide margin of estimates for Stalin's victims; I've seen
>figures from 7 million to 50 million.
>
>Recently, BTW, even the most well-known "revisionist", David Irving,
>stated that 4 million Jews died at the hands of the Nazis. This
>is still lower than the true figure, but it probably means
>that even he realised the figures peddled by the Nazi rabble
>cannot be defended any more.
>
>As to methods, we have been through that. There were incorrect
>claims about the methods of murder in the "Einsatz Reinhard"
>camps. These claims originated from people who spied on the
>camps from a distance (these were members of the Polish
>underground). They saw the dead being carried from the
>chambers to the graves, but they couldn't see into the
>chambers and know how the killing was done. Some of their
>reports were erroneous in this regard.
>
># Professor, when you say someone is a "liar" and a "forger", is
># this it, or do have the evidence. As it stands, your dubbing is only
># an announcement.      
>
>You're a liar and a forger because you took a piece of testimony,
>and added to it questions that were never asked and answers
>that were never given. You also added them in exactly the same
>format as the original Q&A's. You also did not say that these
>are your additions. Only after you were exposed, you claimed
>this was a "satire".
>
>That makes you IMHO a damned liar and forger. You have a
>problem with that? Go cry to your mommy.

	Who's crying, professor? The more you accuse, the more I ask,
"Show it professor". The more I say show it and you just come back
with the accusing words the more you stand guilty. You have made the
charges and refuse to support them. Keep it up. You charge - I say
prove it. You charge - I say prove it. Etc.

>-Danny Keren.    
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 09:57:09 PDT 1996
Article: 39998 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Condolences to Memorial Day
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:28:05 GMT
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <31a9d6a0.14694579@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	To all those who died fighting to create and preserve the the
>                                        ^^^^^^
>>basic freedoms of our system, number one - The First Amendment - the
>>right to freedom of speech - the right to question history - I hope it
>>wasn't all in vain.
>
>And who might these noble martyrs be, Mr. Moran?  There are none that
>I am aware of.  But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  Perhaps
>you think you are simply using "poetic licence" here - with a little
>bit of hyperbole thrown in for good measure.
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov

	"And who might these noble martyrs be, Mr. Moran?  There are none
that I am aware of." 

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 09:57:10 PDT 1996
Article: 40007 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:16:07 GMT
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		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 09:57:11 PDT 1996
Article: 40013 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:35:28 GMT
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References: <31a461b3.259026@news.pacificnet.net> <4o2n7f$rh6@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <31a865b9.321805@news.pacificnet.net> <4oac62$ic3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <26MAY199614183941@cmi.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <4oac62$ic3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>>>>          _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582:
>>>>
>>>>                    THE CRUCIFIXION OF JEWS MUST STOP!
>>>>                           By MARTIN H. GLYNN
>>>>                  (Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)
>> 
>>>	Giwer, whats the story with the date, "1919"?
>> 
>>	What story?  That is the publication date.  This has been around
>>for quite some time.  No one has claimed it is a forgery or
>>anything like that.  
>> 
>>	The worst claim about it has been that it is out of context.
>
>    It is not a forgery.  If one uses it to claim that Glynn was charges
>    there were six million Jews killed in Europe just prior to 1919, then
>    it is out of context.

	Okay, it's not a forgery. Giwer says no, Mittleman says no.

	In that case we can point out that if the Jewish population of
Europe is said to have been 6,900,000 in 1919, then it increased by an
incredible rate that ended up at 11,000,000 by 1939, just twenty years
later.
	Then, as usual, a wide discrepancy arises when compared to other
sources on Jewish population. Martin Gilbert's figures cited in Bauers
"History of the Holocaust" has the Jewish population in Europe at
8,700,000 at the turn of the century, 1,800,000 more than the
6,900,000. 




	



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 12:46:19 PDT 1996
Article: 40031 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:42:46 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 62
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <31ab18af.4540375@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[deceptive diatriabe, which has already been refuted countless times,
>deleted]
>
>>	
>>	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
>>has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
>>number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
>>away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
>>"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
>
>
>CORRECTION:  Although Moran was having one of his "hey, I really can
>copy and paste" post-illiteracy days,  the fact remains that those
>authors of pseudo-academic tracts who have expropriated for themselves
>the term "revisionist", in the hope of gaining "credibility by title",
>have had no impact whatsoever on the interpretation of the facts of
>the Holocaust.  
>
>They have, however, met with some success in convincing the gullibly
>ignorant that their little myths (and big lies) should be propagated
>in the hopes of finding more like-minded gullibly ignorant societal
>misfits.
>
>Whoever coined the phrase "birds of a feather flock together"
>certainly knew whereof s/he spoke.  Not surprisingly, if you wait long
>enough (and in most cases it doesn't take too long) those who tout the
>"truth" (thereby debasing the coinage of the English language) of
>these constantly recycled little myths (and big lies) will find a way
>to express their adulation and admiration of the Nazis and/or to utter
>derogatory remarks about Jews and/or the State of Israel.
>
>Maybe they are not deserving of being "dubbed 'anti-Semites' and[/or]
>'neo-Nazis'."  But somehow, I doubt it.  In Tom Moran's case he has
>already proven beyond the benefit of a doubt that he is indeed
>deserving of the dubbing.
>
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>
Hilary: Your honor, Moran is guilty of the above.

His Honor: Howzat?

Hilary: What do mean, "Howzat" Your Honor.

His Honor: I mean 'Howzat'?

Hilary: What do mean "Howzat", "Howzat"?

His Honor: I mean do you have any examples?

Hilary: Examples? Examples? Who needs examples Your Honor? Isn't my
announcement enough?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed May 29 20:24:38 PDT 1996
Article: 40104 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:03:49 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Who's crying, professor? 
>
>A liar and forger called Tom Moran.
>
># The more you accuse, the more I ask, "Show it professor". The more
># I say show it and you just come back with the accusing words the
># more you stand guilty. You have made the charges and refuse to
># support them.
>
>Ok, here is Moran's article. Note that he took a real testimony,
>and inserted into it - in exactly the same format as the original - 
>questions that were never asked and answers that were never given.
>
>Also, he did not say that these were his additions.
>
>He's a damned liar and forger, and all his whining cannot
>change this fact. He's a a little lying naziboy. That is that.
>
>
>
>From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar  5 16:06:27 EST 1996
>Article: 73393 of alt.revisionism
>Xref: world alt.revisionism:73393
>Path: world!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
>From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: Auschwitz Engineers, I
>Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 16:33:37 GMT
>Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
>Lines: 105
>Message-ID: <3139c63e.6801197@news.pacificnet.net>
>References: 
>NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-0.pacificnet.net
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141
>Status: R
>
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>
>>Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
>>Germany, March 5, 1946
>>[Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming
>>from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993]
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Q. Who apart from you participated in the construction of the furnaces?
>> 
>>A. From 1941-2, I constructed the furnaces. The technical drawings were
>>   done by Mr. Keller. The ventilation systems of the "Kremas" 
>>   [crematoriums] were constructed by senior engineer Karl Schultze.
>> 
>>Q. How often and with what aim did you visit Auschwitz?
>> 
>>A. Five times. The first time at the beginning of 1943, to receive orders
>>   of the SS Command where the Kremas were to be built. The second time in
>>   spring 1943 to inspect the building site. The third time was in autumn
>>   1943 to inspect a fault in the construction of a Krema chimney. The
>>   forth time at the beginning of 1944, to inspect the repaired chimney. the
>>   fifth time in September-October 1944, when I visited Auschwitz with the
>>   intended relocation [from Auschwitz] of the crematoriums, since the
>>   front was getting nearer. The crematoriums were not relocated, because 
>>   there were not enough workers.
>
> Q. When you say "a krema" which one exactly?  
>
> A. Well I don't know which one exactly? It could have been II, III,
>IV or V.
>
> Q. When you say there weren't enough workers, are you saying you
>couldn't have gotten 100 or even 200 men, women and children out of
>the hundred thousand to dismantle the building.
>
> A. Well, ah, we ah ... 
>
> Q. When you say "relocated" do you mean take the brick buildings
>apart piece by piece and rebuild them else where?
>
> A. Yes.
>
> Q. And where was the alternate site to be located?
>
> A. Well, since the front was getting closer, we were figuring on
>moving it further west, maybe even moving the whole operation to a
>ship in the North Sea.
>
>>Q. Were you the sole Topf engineer in Auschwitz in spring 1943?
>> 
>>A. No, [senior engineer Karl] Schultze was with me in Auschwitz at the time.
>>   I saw personally about 60 corpses of women and men of different ages,
>>   which were being prepared for incineration.  That was at 10 in the 
>>   morning. I witnessed the incineration of six corpses and and came to the
>>   conclusion that the furnaces were working well.
>> 
>>Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?
>> 
>>A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
>>   the crematorium there was a connecting structure.
>
> Q. By "connecting structure" do you mean they were not all one in the
>same?
>
> A. Well, yes.
>
> Q. And which Krema was this?
>
> A. Well I'm not sure. It could have been II,III, IV or V.
>> 
>>Q. Did you know that in the gas chamber and in the crematoriums there took
>>   place the liquidation of innocent human beings?
>> 
>>A. I have known since spring 1943 that innocent human beings were being
>>   liquidated in Auschwitz gas chambers and that their corpses were 
>>   subsequently incinerated in the crematoriums.
>> 
>>Q. Who is the designer of the ventilation systems for the gas chambers?
>> 
>>A. Schultze was the designer of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers;
>>   and he installed them.
>> 
>>Q. Why was the brick lining of the muffles so quickly damaged?
>> 
>>A. The bricks were damaged after six months because the strain on the
>>   furnaces was colossal.
>
> Q. So I take it you came up with a good solution to this failure
>since you had no more problems. Was this problem only at teh one
>particular Krema, due to some mistake at teat Krema alone, or did you
>have trouble with the rest?
>
> A. No. It was just this one. Evidentally the mortar wasn't mixed
>right.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-Danny Keren.
	Professor, if I was trying to make it look like the satire
inserts were in fact part of the what you originally posted I would
have taken out the response bullets that distinguish the responding
text from that which was responded to, right professor? If I was
trying to make it look like it was actually part of the original
testimony I would have waited until weeks or months down the road to
post it instead of putting it right there below the professor's
original post, isn't that right professor?
	We've been through this before, right professor?

	Yet you show your impotency by grasping at straws. Just like
Mr.Edeiken sqealing 30 times about some '"KKKK"' I was supposed to
have written, and from which he eventually dropped the quote marks.
Sort of like Marty Kelley and Nizkor focusing on the Menorah issue.

	Your desperate professor, desperate.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 30 07:34:07 PDT 1996
Article: 40154 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No righteous indignation here
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:13:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31ac5b74.3396781@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <832979136snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4ob1lr$tpb@Vir.com>
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>Alexander Baron  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> On May 12 the Sunday Times carried a story about a Russian politician named 
>> Gennady Zyuganov. He appears to be something of a Holocaust Revisionist. He
>> claims that Stalin murdered (only!) half a million, and has found the proof
>> in the archives. No protests have yet been recorded from Harry Mazal, Dan
>> Keren or the Simon Wiesenthal Center. No outrages, no demonstrations, no
>> "educational" books are planned to refute this monstrous calumny. Any ideas
>> why not Mr Moran? Giwer? Doubting Thomas?
>
	Selective outrage.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 30 07:34:07 PDT 1996
Article: 40168 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:27:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <31ac5e70.4160678@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a86735.702545@news.pacificnet.net> <31A85A9F.7EA@rio.com> <31ab2e56.10083735@news.pacificnet.net> <31AB039C.3896@rio.com> <4ogm72$686@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>
>>tom moran wrote:
>>> 
>>> Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>>> 
>>> >Chuck Ferree writes:
>>> >
>>> >Really pisses you off, huh, Moran.
>>> 
>>>       Chuck, I forgot to respond to this sentence. Chuck, I don't get
>>> "pissed off", I post you respond "pissed off". Its on the record. My
>>> posts, your responses.
>
>>Right, it's on the record. You didn't answer my questions about 
>>Auschwitz. Have you ever been there? Did you walk through the horse 
>>stables the inmates lived in? Are you aware that this place was 
>>located in a swampy area, and usually had mud six-eight inches deep?
>>Answer the questions, Moran. Prove some of your statements. Don't just 
>>talk through your hat.
>
>	Swampy area?  Mud six inches deep?  That certainly shoots the
>shit out of those open pit burnings doesn't it?  In addition we
>need to look for heavy duty sump pumps in those Leichenkellars.  
> 
>----
>Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>evidence that he was not an eyewitness.
>
	'Mind witnesses' is more like it. Or, more accurately, 'mindless
witnesses'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 30 07:34:08 PDT 1996
Article: 40190 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is trolling?
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:30:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 5
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	I see a lot of dubbing of "troller" or "trolling" out here. What
does that mean? 
	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 30 12:18:06 PDT 1996
Article: 40199 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Human fat fuel
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 14:09:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <31adaa01.2674792@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31ab096c.633889@news.pacificnet.net> <31AB3513.175D@rio.com>
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>As the Holocast story has it...huh!
>
>Well even if it's a total waste of time, this deserves a common sense 
>answer. From eyewitness, as well as experts.
>
	We will see by the end that Mr.Ferree doesn't include one iota of
the above.
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         As the Holocaust story has it, large pits were dug where
>> thousands of bodies were dumped in each one
>
>not all at one time, like adding more firewood to your fireplace. You 
>do that don't you...to keep the fire going.
>
	?
>
>, the bodies doused with a
>> initial flammable substance, ignited and there after the fire was
>> sustained with human fat that drained off to a basin at the end.
>
>Actually both ends in some cases. Men with long handled scoops, dipped 
>the fat back onto the corpses. The fat burned also in the pools of 
>human fat. Try it, yourself, only don't use real dead people. The 
>fires burned day and night, week after week, day after day. I can site 
>the sources if you'd like, but it's pretty gruesome.
>
	You mean Sondercommandos had thesee long ahndled scoops, dipped
them into the flaming pool, and then ran along side of the trench and
poured it back in? How big were these long handled scoops, a quart, a
gallon, a 55 gal. drum? Was the fat in the scoops burning during the
running around?
	Lets hear the "gruesome" details Mr.Ferree.

>>         If we picture this we would have to recognize that the running,
>> seeping fat would have to be already hot and in a highly ignitable
>> state.
>
>Correct, and it usually was burning too.
>
>
>>         Take kerosene/oil burners for instance.
>
>Why use this as an example. We aren't discussing stoves, or heaters, 
>we are discussion dead humans being burned in special trenches, thin 
>ones, little children, pregnant women, even some who weren't dead. 
>Thrown into the leaping flames. 
>Are you going to answer my questions about visiting Auschwitz.? Or are 
>you just going to continue with your really dumb analogies?

	Was it to discuss "heaters and stoves" or was it to show a
preheat process?
>
>
> These fuels usually
>> require pre heating after which the fuel enters the furnace in the
>> form of a vapor. Once the fuel is super heated in the preheating
>> system it is many more times flammable than when in its cool liquid
>> stage and could even be as flammable as gasoline.
>
>And therefore...what!
>
>
>> 
>>         Now what kept the flames from accompaning the seeping fat as it
>> entered into this alleged basin?
>
>Nothing, the seeping fat burned too. It was used to keep the fires 
>roaring. Jesus, Tom, did you study anything in high school?
>Were you ever at Auschwitz? Yes or no!

	We already said that Mr.Ferree, that the fat was said to be used
to stoke the fires, but we're talking about the pool - the basin.
>
>Chuck Ferree
>> 
>>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 30 12:18:07 PDT 1996
Article: 40214 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:29:55 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <31ada0b5.295551@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a31629.4253996@news.pacificnet.net> <4o5f88$64b@shiva.usa.net> <31a709cf.1089876@news.pacificnet.net> <4ofm1g$3ph@shiva.usa.net> <4oia0c$c73@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4ofm1g$3ph@shiva.usa.net>, 
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>
>>In article <31a31629.4253996@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>>	Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
>>	hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz,
>>	barely the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three
>>	bodies in twenty minutes, as the Holocaust story has it.
>
>Even though modern day Indy racing cars attain speeds in
>excess of 200 miles per hour, the Indy cars of the 1940's,
>barely the size of , 
>could not, as the Indy story has it.... therefore there are 
>no racing cars, no "Indy" racing oval, no "racing commentators" 
>and no "sponsors."

	McVay, your logic doesn't correspond to anything.
Logic is not something you just mimic with, its something that follows
or clearly relates it to something else.
 
>>I responded:
>>
>>	The Nazis did not have to collect the ashes for the victims'
>>	survivng relatives, nor did the bodies have to be burned inside
>>	of coffins.  This has been explained to Mr. Moran before, but he
>>	has never, ever let facts stand in the way of his favorite
>>	pastime, Jew-bashing!

	This is not an "explain"ation, this is an announcement that has
no follow up. What should one conclude from this?


>Of course not. Mr. Moran is capable of nothing else. It is, I
>suggest, a sport with him.

	McVay, the statement discribes the problems with the cremation
rate, in a nutshell.

>>In article <31a709cf.1089876@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>>	Maybe you should expand on what relevance collecting ashes for
>>	relatives has to do with the gross differnce in cremation times.
>
>>Naturally, Mr. Moran requires an explanation for the obvious!  First
>>of all, collecting ashes prevents the burning of more than one body
>>at at time.  Secondly, the oven must be allowed to cool before the
>>ashes can be collected.

	 We're talking the rate of 1940s cremation facilities being 20
times that of modern day facilities.
>

>I believe it takes far longer to reduce the bone to a fine
>ash, as has been pointed out before. Mr. Moran, however, has
>no interest in what has already been demonstrated. Like the
>GiwerTroll, his sole true interest is in wasting disk space
>and diverting discussion.
>
>Like the Giwer, he has become nothing more or less than a
>troll, with no interest in history.

	McVay, notice there is no trolling here. Of course you may have
your own definition, directed by your own capability at logic.
	The story basically has it the ashes were further reduced to
smaller units by a pounding machine.

	Lets finish off with the particulars:

	The Holocaust story has it that up to three people every twenty
minutes could be cremated. You say the ashes didn't have to be turned
over to relatives and there was no coffin. You say they weren't
reduced to as fine ashe as other conditions. You also mention a
cooling time between firings. Now why don't you put all the pieces
together into a sweeping conclusion.
 	What you have here is 1+1+1+1 = 0.


>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>      Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>            Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 30 14:24:27 PDT 1996
Article: 40220 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*ws hid scrolls for 40 years
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:49:12 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <31ada689.1787424@news.pacificnet.net>
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rjg@d31rz1.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4ob4p1$l04@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:
>>
>>>>--
>>>>Harry Katz
>>>>
>>>>An Israelite is prohibited from deceiving even an idolator.
>>>>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
>>
>>>Since 'American j*ws' are the biggest source of deception, this would 
>>>prove they are not of the House of Israel. Probably Kulaks.
>>
>>	And further proof that our California Chemist has to be an
>>atheist.  Or perhaps he has split a rabbinic hair and determined
>>that it refers only to citizens of Israel.
>
>Actually, I am an atheist.  What this has to do with Huber's deceptions
>is beyond me, but atleast it's more material on Mr. Giwer's
>antisemitism.

	I don't believe it, Green. I've heard this announcement before to
disassociate so as to look like a position is objective. Your no
atheist. You could chant it a thousand times a day. I think, what you
know. 


>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 30 14:24:28 PDT 1996
Article: 40221 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seeking the first time
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:51:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <31ada7d2.2115985@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a461b3.259026@news.pacificnet.net> <4o2n7f$rh6@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <31a865b9.321805@news.pacificnet.net> <4oac62$ic3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <26MAY199614183941@cmi.arizona.edu> <31ac4eea.187349@news.pacificnet.net> <4oj3te$4ci@boris.eden.com>
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mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>
>>>In article <4oac62$ic3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>          _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                    THE CRUCIFIXION OF JEWS MUST STOP!
>>>>>>                           By MARTIN H. GLYNN
>>>>>>                  (Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)
>>>> 
>>>>>	Giwer, whats the story with the date, "1919"?
>>>> 
>>>>	What story?  That is the publication date.  This has been around
>>>>for quite some time.  No one has claimed it is a forgery or
>>>>anything like that.  
>>>> 
>>>>	The worst claim about it has been that it is out of context.
>>>
>>>    It is not a forgery.  If one uses it to claim that Glynn was charges
>>>    there were six million Jews killed in Europe just prior to 1919, then
>>>    it is out of context.
>
>>	Okay, it's not a forgery. Giwer says no, Mittleman says no.
>
>>	In that case we can point out that if the Jewish population of
>>Europe is said to have been 6,900,000 in 1919, then it increased by an
>>incredible rate that ended up at 11,000,000 by 1939, just twenty years
>>later.
>>	Then, as usual, a wide discrepancy arises when compared to other
>>sources on Jewish population. Martin Gilbert's figures cited in Bauers
>>"History of the Holocaust" has the Jewish population in Europe at
>>8,700,000 at the turn of the century, 1,800,000 more than the
>>6,900,000. 
>
>The fact that the document is not a forgery doesn't mean its numbers
>are right.

	Did I say they were?

>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu May 30 14:24:28 PDT 1996
Article: 40226 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Condolences to Memorial Day
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:10:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <31ac59d2.2978637@news.pacificnet.net>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>
>>>	To all those who died fighting to create and preserve the the
>>>basic freedoms of our system, number one - The First Amendment - the
>>>right to freedom of speech - the right to question history - I hope it
>>>wasn't all in vain.
>
>>Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. You digust me. Our absolte
>>commitment to freedom is what enables people like us to tolerate people
>>like you.

	I didn't get this Grave's post for some reason. As to his
immediate above, I would say that the most prevailant outbursts of any
"patriotism" I have seen in the nations two largest news papers, the
N.Y. and L.A. Times, is that expressed for Israel. Thousands via
letters to the editors, columns, article quotes, editorials, unsigned
editorials and ads, often full page ads.


>	Enables?  Would you want it any other way?
>
>>In his efforts to defend the murders of millions of innocent civilians by
>>the Nazi regime, Mr. Moran can cite no serious effort to infringe on his
>>right to lie.
>
>	But of course if you ever take a look at the adult v child
>numbers you will find out that Jews were already dying out for
>lack of procreation.  Quite a strange phenomenon actually.  
>
>
>
>----
>Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
>evidence that he was not an eyewitness.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 11:48:23 PDT 1996
Article: 40295 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Defacates On Us Agaqin
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:20:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <31ada08c.253753@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a5b687.244361@news.pacificnet.net> <4o5tqj$srn@news.enter.net> <31a70bee.1633469@news.pacificnet.net> <4og0en$bcs@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 	
>	According to writings in the N.Y. and/or the L.A. Times,...
>
>Mr. Moran is the one who read an article written by Hillary Ostrov in
>either the New York Times or the Los Angeles Times.  The only problem
>was that Ms. Ostrov never wrote any articles for either of these
>newspapers.
>
>Mr. Moran also claimed to have read about the "secular menorah"
>court decision in one of these two newspapers, but could never find
>said article when asked for a citation.
>
>In other words, what Mr. Moran claims he has read in these newspapers
>is not necessarily what was actually printed there!

	Really? Did Moran ask if Hilary wrote articles or did he inquire
that she wrote articles?

>Harry Katz
>
>This world is like a roadside inn, but the world to come is like the
>real home.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 11:48:25 PDT 1996
Article: 40296 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:20:50 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <31ada0a1.275393@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a31372.3559030@news.pacificnet.net> <4o5f0t$64b@shiva.usa.net> <31a865e6.366899@news.pacificnet.net> <4ofvt8$bcs@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31a31372.3559030@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
>	older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to
>	newer accounts that are currently written in stone.
>
>I responded:
>
>	Once again, having nothing of substance to contribute, Mr. Moran
>	resorts to baiting Jews.  Mr. Moran is fond of demanding a death
>	certificate for each victim of the Nazis, but feels free to
>	libel and slander Jews without so much as a shred of evidence.

	Mr.Katz, can you show where Moran demanded death certificates? 


>	Mr. Moran is, to use his own words, corrupt, and insults the
>	intelligence of the readers of this newsgroup.
>
>In article <31a865e6.366899@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	Now that you have made your opening statement, maybe you would
>	like to present the evidence for your announcement.
>
>My evidence is Mr. Moran's total lack of evidence!  In other words,
>if you read his original statement above, you will note that it lacks
>anything even remotely resembling evidence.  What it does not lack is
>willful slander and deceit.
>
>
>	Or is that it?
>
>Would that it were, but I am sure that Mr. Moran will soon post more
>of his bile in support of my thesis, that he is a lying, Jew-hater.
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Let not your lips speak that which is not in your heart.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 11:48:26 PDT 1996
Article: 40303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*ws hid scrolls for 40 years
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:50:24 GMT
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Message-ID: <31ada772.2020635@news.pacificnet.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>My sig reads:
>
>	An Israelite is prohibited from deceiving even an idolator.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
>
>In article <4oa98d$16e2@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>,
>M Huber (EEGG87E@prodigy.com) whines:
>
>	Since 'American j*ws' are the biggest source of deception,
>	this would prove they are not of the House of Israel.
>
>Mr. Huber has a strange concept of "proof!"  First he ought to prove
>that "American Jews are the biggest source of deception!"  Not to
>mention that in previous incarnations Mr. Huber has denied that the
>so-called "House of Israel" adheres to the Talmud, or that the Talmud
>is a theologically correct book to begin with.

	"Theologically correct". NOws there one for you. 
Prove it Katz.


>Mr. Huber would have been the biggest source of deception in America,
>but his bile is too transparent to deceive anyone in the first place!
>
>
>	Probably Kulaks.
>
>Note that Mr. Huber does not need even his phoney "proof" to make
>this specious assertion.  As if Mr. Huber knows what a kulak is
>to begin with!
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>How may a man obtain greatness?  By fidelity, truth,
>and lofty thoughts.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 14:34:54 PDT 1996
Article: 40314 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Condolences to Memorial Day
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:59:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31ada925.2455531@news.pacificnet.net>
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rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>	To all those who died fighting to create and preserve the the
>>basic freedoms of our system, number one - The First Amendment - the
>>right to freedom of speech - the right to question history - I hope it
>>wasn't all in vain.
>
>Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. You digust me. Our absolte
>commitment to freedom is what enables people like us to tolerate people
>like you.

	Graves, doesn't "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
belong in quote marks in your post? Or are you to have us believe it
is your statement?
	Graves, is Zionism a "patriotic" movement?


>In his efforts to defend the murders of millions of innocent civilians by
>the Nazi regime, Mr. Moran can cite no serious effort to infringe on his
>right to lie.
>
>-rich
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 14:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 40322 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:23:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:


                             --------

>> "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>> at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>> former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>> Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>> are much lower than previously thought?"
>> 
>> *("well over" meaning 4 million)
>> 
>> The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
>> "invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
>> "to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
>> overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
>> by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
>> figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
>> their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
>>        
>> Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
>> go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.
>> 
>> "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
>> has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."
>
>Here, we have yet another brazen example of "lying by omission" and taking
>what was said out of context for the purpose of malicious distortion. Such
>puerile tactics are the stock-in-trade of Holocaust deniers, of which
>Moran is one. The full passage, in context, from the center's "Responses
>to Revisionist Arguments" page (URL:
>http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/revision.htm#13) is:


Van Alstines post of the whole statement. Now Van Alstine, maybe you
can show how it exposes the summary a lying by ommission.
         

>"13. For years, the death statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well
>over 3 million. Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the former death camp
>estimates Jewish losses closer to 1 million. Shouldn't the new figures
>imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust are much lower than previously
>thought? 
>
>   "The figure of 3-4 million murdered at Auschwitz-Birkenau was an invention 
>   of communist officials in Poland (and the former U.S.S.R.) which sought 
>   to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering at Auschwitz. To do this, 
>   they purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at 
>   Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. In a clever attempt 
>   to disguise the subterfuge, the figures for Jewish losses were inflated 
>   by nearly double, so that their losses would still be larger than those 
>   of non-Jewish victims,though now by a much smaller ratio. With the end of 
>   communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, officials at the Auschwitz 
>   museum finally lowered the casualty figures in line with the estimates of 
>   historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and 1 1/2 million 
>   people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau, 80 - 90% of them Jews.
>
>   "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust has always been 
>   in line with the lower Auschwitz figures.
>
>As can be seen, Moran's implication that "[f]or years, the death
>statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well over 3 million..."
>was the position of the Center is a shallow-minded canard. The truth, of
>course, is that Center framed this as a _question_ (question #13) in
>attributing the claims by deniers who assert that the discrepancy between
>erroneous death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau by the former Polish and Soviet
>governments, and the historically accepted death toll described by the
>plaque, somehow means that the death toll of the Holocaust was somehow
>significantly revised downwards. 
>
>Of course, as the Wiesenthal Center illustrates, it never was. 
>
>> Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
>> 6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
>> Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
>> down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
>> see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
>> blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.

	Below we have Van Alstine stating "Conveniently ignored is that
historians, for decades, have come to agreement that the death toll at
Auschwitz-Birkenau was between 1-1.5 million (80-90% Jews) ..."

Further above Van Alstine had said,  "Here, we have yet another brazen
example of "lying by omission" and taking what was said out of context
for the purpose of malicious distortion."  Yet Moran has posted a
whole list of contradictions that challenge any attempt to say, like
Van Alstine and Wiesenthal, that a 1 million number has been the norm.

Okay Van Alstine, the list is there, perhaps twenty of so examples.
How many do you have?

>Here we see Moran, using his misrepresentation of what the Center said as
>a straw man argument, maliciously distorts the assertions of the Center.
>Conveniently ignored is that historians, for decades, have come to
>agreement that the death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau was between 1-1.5
>million (80-90% Jews) and the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust,
>including the deaths at Auschwitz, was around 6 million. 
>
>[snip]
>
>> So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
>> 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
>> the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
>> to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
>> anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
>> would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
>> numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
>> Jews.
>
>Again, conveniently ignored, is any mention of Dr. Piper's exhaustive
>estimate, begun in 1980 and completed in 1986, for the number murdered at
>Auschwitz, which was (at least) 1.1 million. It was, in great part, Dr.
>Piper's estimate that was used by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum's
>1990 reassessment of the Museum's official estimate to 1.1 million. An
>estimate that historians and Holocaust researchers are in agreement with.
>As is the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>
>> This poster has over the years witnessed many times...
>
>And _this_ poster has witnessed, over the months, that Moran has been
>profuse in his lies and innuendo. Especially when it regards Jews in
>general, the numbers of Jews murdered in the Holocaust, the historical
>veracity of the Holocaust, and the fact that Auschwitz was an
>extermination camp that murdered people in gas chambers with Zyklon B and
>their bodies incinerated in furnaces and pits. 
>
>[snip]
>
>> In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
>> Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
>> pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
>> record straight?  
>
>But, as Moran knows full-well knows, that is _exactly_ what the Center was
>doing in question #13! Why else would he lie, distort, and fabricate about
>what the Center said in question #13 in order to "prove" the Simon
>Wiesenthal Center was doing otherwise? Evidently he must feel the
>necessity to slander the Simon Wiesenthal Center because their refutation
>completely demolishes the deniers' patently false and misleading claims! 
>
>> It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
>> initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
>> struggled energetically to keep it from happening. 
>
>Considering the Herculean efforts of historians and Holocaust researchers,
>such as Dr. Piper, and the desire of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum
>to officially reflect the historically accepted estimates for the death
>toll at the Auschwitz extermination camp, it CAN be shown that Moran's
>absurd claim is exposed for the pathetic lie that it is! 
>
>
>> It could also be suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the 
>> Holocaust beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.
>
>It could also be suggested, given the above, that this is nothing more
>than yet another self-serving denier lie. 
>
>>  Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends
>
>Behold the Liar - Read a Moranic(tm) re-post by Moran!
>
>[snip]
>
>> WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
>> has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
>> number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
>> away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
>> "anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
>
>REALITY CHECK: In other words, Moran is lying through his teeth again and
>re-posting this garbage for the FIFTH time. That he feels Holocaust
>denialism is "chipping away" at the historocity of the Holocaust simply
>underscores Moran's propensity for propaganda and his delusional state of
>mind. A state of mind, besides being delusional, that is driven by rampant
>anti-Semitism and sympathy to Nazi ideology. 
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>posted/e-mailed
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 14:34:56 PDT 1996
Article: 40324 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Picture this
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:33:04 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <31aef4ed.2343759@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-21.pacificnet.net
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	By Holocaust accounts it is said during the first gassings at
"block 11" the Germans were experimenting with various doses of Zyklon
B to see how much they would need. They found that some of the people
were still alive after two days.
	Now how did  all this take place? Did they just let the bodies
lay around for two days in the block, and then someone noticed there
were still some alive? Or did they gas them for two days and then
after they let the air out they entered and found that some were still
alive? Or did they empty the block of the dead bodies and stack them
someplace and then someone noticed that some were still alive? Or did
they gas the victims for a number of minutes or hours and then took
the bodies out and noticed some were still alive and then gave them
medical attention? Or did they take the bodies out and let those still
alive die a slow death? Or did they .... 




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 14:34:56 PDT 1996
Article: 40325 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:38:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <31aef5f9.2611409@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	I realize McVays bio may say he got into anti-denierism because
he was horrified by some post some character had committed from
Oregon. His personal bio of cultural likes and dislikes, (alt,rev,
"The Cultured McVay"), doesn't give him much of a history,  outside
what kind of wine or cars he likes, so we wonder where is the
background that propelled the person to suddenly start fighting hate
and neo-Nazism, in the form of anti-denierism.
	One thing is evident. He gets a lot of accomodation on the
Websites and his own Nizkor site now involves considerable investment.
It is said he gets donations from some Hebrew congregation in Canada.
	The accomodation he gets on the Internet is quite extensive, and
he has even been covered in an article in the L.A.Times, the same
paper that readily prints news releases put out by the Simon
Wiesenthal Center. The Center and all the rest of the Holocaust pages
carry link icons to Nizkor, but that is pretty much where the
connection ends.
	Nizkor is out here posting on alt.rev. and none of the others
are. Nizkor boasts 3,500 files, some still holding to past Holocaust
facts that are commonly recognized as false today by such Holocaust
organizations like the Wiesenthal Center, which do not include these
old facts in their current list of facts.
	One might theorize that Nizkor is being finanaced so it can keep
on putting out past obsolete facts, and other current facts that the
Simon Wiesenthal Center avoids doing so as not to have a record of so
doing when the debunking of old facts becomes widely known and current
facts are debunked in the future. In  other words, Nizkor is a vehicle
for the others to have their cake and and deny it too. 
	When the tilt starts to tumble into widespread awareness of the
masses about revisionism, the Simon Wiesenthal can say we didn't say
that. Someone might say, but you had a link to Nizkor, and look what
they had to say. Then Simon could say they merely put it in there
since it was Holocasut related but they didn't have any control over
what was included in the Nizkor site.
	Nizkor will then be like a expended piece of chewed up gum stuck
up under the counter. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 14:34:57 PDT 1996
Article: 40326 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Kids Stay Cozy in Gas Chambers
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:36:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <31aef597.2513807@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	 "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"

	"Jehuda Bacon was a 14-year-old member of the truck commando who
had to retrieve ashes from the crematoria to spread onto the the icy
paths during winter. He saw horrible events there, but also got to
know Kalman Furman, who was always friendly to the teens and ready to
help. Bacon remembers the '"Aryan"' kapo Jozef Ilezuk--a teacher who
allowed children, upon completion of their work, to warm themselves in
an empty gas chamber."

	Well, that certainly is a paragraph full. What a inferrence a
paragraph can make. Wow.

	Does this mean that kids played a role in the process of the
exterminations? Seems so.
	How much did he get to see of the operation while going in and
out to get the ashes? "He saw horrible events there".
	Where did the kids go after the shift of duty? Since this tale is
a continuation of the book's stating how the sondercommando got to
make discrete contact at times with the general prisoner population we
might assume the kids just went back to their barracks. They didn't
say anything because the SS told them all the "horrible things" were
to be kept a secret.
	Does this statement say they used the ashes to keep people from
slipping on the icy walk ways? Yikes. But hold it. What about those
stories about the ashes had to be further pulverized to obliterate any
solid remains? Well good thing, what with spreading the remains around
on icy paths all over camp we couldn't have any signs of what it might
really be.
	Are we to believe that the kids were taken or allowed to go to
the gas chamber cellars to warm up? Do they mean they went through the
rooms to the stairs, down the stairs to the gas chambers to get warm?
But what about the heat from the raging or idling burnings of multiple
furnaces in the cremation area? You'd think it would be pretty warm in
there. But then with all those dead bodies stacked up, as the story
goes, maybe there wasn't any room for them to stand.
	The Holocaust story says the cellar chambers were aired out after
each mass murder, which would tend to make them about as cold as the
outside. Oh', the chambers were heated the story could go?  But then
the story tells how hot buckets of coke were used to heat the cellar
chambers for the mass gassing, coke itself giving off carbon monoxide,
so it wouldn't have been used to heat the chambers just for the
children. 
	Since the Holocaust story has the sondercommandos themselves
using the gas chambers as living quarters, when they weren't in use of
course, we might suppose they and the kids all sat around and had
chats. Or maybe something like 'Hey you kids, shut up. We're trying to
sleep'.

	Yup. Something wacky on every page of a Holocaust book.  




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 17:27:13 PDT 1996
Article: 40340 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is trolling?
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:58:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <31aeecf5.303900@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31ada2d8.842604@news.pacificnet.net> <4okcls$m7m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <31ada2d8.842604@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>				
>>	I see a lot of dubbing of "troller" or "trolling" out here. What
>>does that mean? 
>>	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
>>You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling.

	Okay, heres McVay's answer to the question; What is trolling?	

>I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
>inability to use the English language properly, brush your
>teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
>manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.
>
>There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
>(Somehow, I doubt it.)

	Moran wonders if McVay stamped his foot down when typing the
sentence, "There."
	He doubts if Moran can figure out his response. He's got that
right.
	He says Moran can't brush his teeth or have "normal" sex. Now how
would he know? He probably figured it out the same way he figures out
anything else, by what he wants to believe.  

>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>      Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>            Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 17:27:14 PDT 1996
Article: 40341 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, Yellow School Buses
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:59:43 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <31aeecfc.310216@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a86735.702545@news.pacificnet.net> <31A85A9F.7EA@rio.com> <31ab2cfc.9737049@news.pacificnet.net> <4oj4m0$2q2c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:


>When is the last time (or is there a last time) *your* light bulb went on,
>Mr. Moran?
>	
	Moran post a flood light and McFee comes back with a candle.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 17:27:15 PDT 1996
Article: 40342 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Condolences to Memorial Day
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:00:04 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31aeed42.380959@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31a9d6a0.14694579@news.pacificnet.net> <27MAY199613162648@cmi.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:

>In article <31a9d6a0.14694579@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>	To all those who died fighting to create and preserve the the
>>basic freedoms of our system, number one - The First Amendment - the
>>right to freedom of speech - the right to question history - I hope it
>>wasn't all in vain.
>
>    No, it certainly was not in vain.  And most here would fight for your
>    right to continue to do it.  However, that same first amendment gives
>    us the right to show everyone what a bozo you are everytime you make a
>    stupid argument.
>
>    It cuts both ways.

	Thank you for this. Honestly. I don't mind being called a
"racist", "neo-Nazi", "anti-Semite" or even a "bozo" or anything else,
just as long as I have the chance to reply. 
	You did good work here Danny.
											Tom Moran

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 17:27:15 PDT 1996
Article: 40343 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Defacates On Us Agaqin
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:00:20 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 13
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  	Really? Did Moran ask if Hilary wrote articles or did he inquire
>>  that she wrote articles?
>>
>>>>>
>	Neither.  He claimed that he read it.

	Is this a claim? Only?
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri May 31 17:27:16 PDT 1996
Article: 40344 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:33:47 GMT
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	According to Franciszek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz Museum in
Poland, prisoner and SS eyewitness testimony is unreliable.
	In his "Number of Victims", Chapter 4 in "The Anatomy of the
Auschwitz Death Camp", he covers the course of events and
considerations involved in arriving at the revised Auschwitz figures. 
	It seems the revisers held little esteem for any eyewitness
testimony, at least in regard to numbers, be it prisoner or SS
functionary, discounting it all in favor of deportation records from
various countries.
	In respect to the numbers, Piper referring to the deportation
records states, "Before these records were discovered, researchers had
to rely on discrepant and impercise data from testimonies and
depositions from witnesses, former prisoners, and Nazi functionaries
and on court decisions and fragmentary and incomplete records of camp
registries, archives, and other institutions".
	Here Piper even includes "court decisions" as part of that which
is held in low esteem.
	He goes on to say the testimonies held "inevitable distortions
and were "marred by serious errors, discrepancies, and
contradictions".
	Among the few examples Piper identifies as perpetrating the
questionable testimony is the number one star witness for the
Holocaust story, Rudolph Ho'ss.
	Under a bold heading "Investigating and Prosecuting Agencies and
Tribunals" Piper does a quick run down on the erroneous findings of
these bodies and even does similar comment under "Scholarly
Publications".
	Piper comments along the way, "Yet several factors now prompt
historians to attempt to verify widely used figures, including the
scientific demand for objectivity in the study of Nazi crimes."
	
	



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