The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0296


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb  1 08:33:15 PST 1996
Article: 22321 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mi-Lai (Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:28:04 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:

>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> >Actually, Mr. Moran, you may be shocked to learn this, but not everything 
>> >done by representatives of the US--in this case, the massacre of 
>> >civilians at My Lai, Vietnam--is a matter of US policy. (In fact, the 
>> >Army court-martialled Lt. Calley, who led the massacre) 
>> 
>> >By the way, here are just a few other governments who massacre (or have 
>> >massacred in past regimes) civilians despite having U.S. diplomatic and 
>> >economic support: 

>[list snipped]

>> 	I see you have left out ISRAEL. ISRAEL which gets more aid than all
>> the rest above that do. The point of Israel killing children is truely
>> a Jewish policy. 

>Well, you see, Mr. Moran, the reason I left Israel out of the list was 
>that I said that these were OTHER nations with U.S. support, and that 
>these other nations also have killed civilians--I was not disputing that 
>Israel has done so.  For the record, I don't support Israel's repressive 
>policies during the intifada, and I am very hopeful that the peace 
>process in the occupied territories will result in genuine peace.  
>(Prediction: Tom Moran will announce that, reading between the lines, he 
>has divined that I don't really believe what I just stated)

	Well you did use say that the US supported those nations you listed,
which is not true to the all, and Israel is the one that gets most of
our foriegn aid (three billion to Egypt part of it), so whatever you
say you left out Israel.

>> Mai Lai was a one time thing and the intifada was a
>> couple of hundred incidents. Mai Lai was prosecuted, the killers of
>> Palestinian children were not. What ever policies you say the listed
>> countries have, you don't see letters to the editors, columns,
>> articles or full page ads in our major medias telling us their
>> policies are justified as we see about Israel. 

>Well, as a matter of fact, there have been plenty of letters to the 
>editor supporting the policies of U.S.-backed countries which carried out 
>political murders.  Remember El Salvador?  During the most repressive 
>years of the Salvadoran military's reign (about 1981-84, as I recall), 
>there were almost daily letters to the editor of the Arizona Republic 
>(the paper I took back then) warning that any attempt to curb the 
>right-wing Salvadoran government's human-rights abuses would lead 
>to Soviet tanks rolling up through Mexico and taking us over.  And good 
>ol' Ronald Reagan considered the Contras, who did their fair share of 
>slaughtering civilians (and received illegal U.S. military and economic 
>aid to do it) "the moral equivalent of our founding fathers."  So, as I 
>say, U.S. support for abusers of human rights is hardly limited to 
>Israel.  Conversely, while Israel's human-rights record is hardly spotless, 
>the U.S. has supported far more repressive governments than Israel's. 

	And then here you are citing "almost daily letters" in support of
suppression in El Salvador.
	And whether or not the US has supported "far more repressive"
gavernments does not justify anything does it?
	No need to read between your lines, you do it right on the surface.

>I notice, Mr. Moran, that you didn't reply to my offer to send you 
>information on Amnesty International.  I would suggest that you check 
>that organization out, since it works to prevent human-rights abuses 
>_wherever_ they occur. 

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)

>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 





From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb  1 08:33:16 PST 1996
Article: 22322 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Without Jewish genes, Goyems would be nothing
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:32:24 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On 30 Jan 1996, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:

>> >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>> >  	The Catholic Monks were the ones that preserved the ancient work of
>> >  the Greeks and Romans. It was the work of the Greeks that surfaced and
>> >  sparked the Western culture. The Bible is little more than ravings and
>> >  superstition. 
>> 
>> 	Wrong.  It was the Muslims.

>Well...you're both right, though I'd have to say Yale is more right.  The 
>Muslims preserved the vast majority of the Greek and Roman texts that 
>have come down to us today, and then some scholars under the aegis of the 
>Catholic church began rediscovering them. (A substantial number of monks 
>also vigorously OPPOSED the study of those "pagan" texts, and sought to 
>repress them--a point Mr. Moran seems unaware of)

	This is correct about the Muslims being there in earnst for the Greek
attainments. It is also true for the Catholic monks, whether or no
some opposed it. So here we have the Muslims and the Catholics, anyone
else?

>Mr. Moran seems to be arguing that the Catholic monks _preferred_ the 
>Greek and Roman texts to the Bible, a notion that is, to say the very 
>least, bizarre in the extreme. This may come as a shock to Mr. Moran, but 
>most Catholics consider the Bible, ummm, well, HOLY.  

	I would say the Bible is becoming less and less "Holy" each day in the
minds of the world.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)

>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 





From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb  1 08:33:17 PST 1996
Article: 22327 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Without Jewish genes, Goyems would be nothing
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:37:59 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>	The Catholic Monks were the ones that preserved the ancient work of
>>the Greeks and Romans. It was the work of the Greeks that surfaced and
>>sparked the Western culture. The Bible is little more than ravings and
>>superstition. 

>Bzzzt. Wrong again, but thanks for playing. Almost all of the Greek
>works that were preserved in the Latin West were preserved in Latin.
>Of all of Plato's works, only the Timaeus was at all well-known in
>scholarly circles (that would be yer monks and friars).

>Now should we have a quiz? Should we ask the all-knowing Mr. Moran
>when and by what agency Greek literature and philosophy *came back* to
>the Latin West? Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no. Waste of
>bandwidth.

>The bulk of Greek literature and philosophy was rediscovered by the
>Latin West in and after the twelfth century largely through the agency
>of Muslim scholars, like Averroes and Avicenna, and--wait for it--oh,
>Mr. Moran is not going to like this!--Sephardic Jews in Muslim Spain.

	Was Columbus a Sephardic Jew?
	Anyway, I recall an article about a museum tour in the US of old
Jewish lieratures in Spain. The article did a lot of boasting about
how the Jews did this and that in various fields but then later on
admitted that the papers on display were all correspondence between
families and friends.

>Even so, knowledge of Greek still did not become widespread until
>sometime later. The first and most widespread "edition" of Aristotles'
>_Nicomachean Ethics_ was the translation into Latin by the English
>Franciscan Ralph Grosseteste, but I think Thomas Aquinas based most of
>his "Aristotelianism" upon another translation by his Dominican
>master, Albertus Magnus. But I digress.

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca





From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb  1 08:33:18 PST 1996
Article: 22328 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The more plans I see the more rediculous the story.
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:44:09 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4eo4mo$5p9@zippy.cais.net>, 
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>[of Krema I]

>>	The first plans are for Crematorium I at Auschwitz I are not actual
>>German documents, but drawings for the publication that focus on
>>showing the various ventilation plans the Germans had considered. The
>>floor plans show the general layout of the building.

>For how long, Mr. Moran, was Krema I in use?
>How many people are said to have been gassed there?

	As far as I have seen, anywhere from 3, 5, 10 thousand, and more. You
know, the usual multiple selection.

>-- 
>     The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                   Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb  2 19:35:45 PST 1996
Article: 22435 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:55:49 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

># Whatever dios ex machina explainations you come up with here 
># does not address the problem. That 85% (giving the Holocaust 
># side the benefit of the numerical selections) was not used, 
># thus making all the procedures all the more complicated.

>1) It was explained to you, many times, that it was not 85
>   percent, but less.

>2) It was explained to you, many times, that in the gas chambers
>   of Kremas II and III, in which most of the killing took
>   place, the Zyklon was taken out via the wiremesh devices,
>   thus completely solving the problem that may have been caused
>   by the continuing evaporation of HCN from it; and that in
>   other gas chambers, gas masks were used.

>Frankly, I don't understand what your problem is. What do you
>fail to understand in 1) and 2) above?

	Where did you explain "many times" that the left over Zyklone B was
not 85 percent. I gave you the course of figuring, you responded:

 "And your source for the '"15%"' figure is? You have already proved
to the readers of this newsgroup that you cannot handle basic
arithmatic".

  You did not give us a demonstration of your powerful mathematical
contradiction, just the curt little wimpy statement. 

	Where did you explain "many times" that the excess Zyklone B was taken
out?  You did pull a rabbit out of the hat in your initial reply. I
suppose you have more than your dios ex machina reply, as to
extracting any excess Zyklone B from the chambers? Some document or
survivor testimony maybe, a word from Ho:ss? 

># HCN might be used in US gas chambers, but its not Zyclone B, 
># is it? We talking HCN in the format of Zyclone B, are we not? 

>Sigh. It is true that gas chambers in US prisons use a different
>source for the HCN. So what? It's still the same gas and it
>still kills people quite fast. 

	That which is used in US gas chambers is concentrate, dropped in a
solution for rapid release, intended for one individual, in a small
compartment. Zyklone B is designed for slow release - like moth balls.
	The alchohol in a can of beer is the same as the alchohol in a glass
of 151 proof rum - but you would have it that he who drinks the can of
beer would suffer the same effects as one who drank the glass of rum.

>-Danny Keren.

>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.

>-Lu Xun.




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb  3 08:44:25 PST 1996
Article: 22435 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:55:49 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

># Whatever dios ex machina explainations you come up with here 
># does not address the problem. That 85% (giving the Holocaust 
># side the benefit of the numerical selections) was not used, 
># thus making all the procedures all the more complicated.

>1) It was explained to you, many times, that it was not 85
>   percent, but less.

>2) It was explained to you, many times, that in the gas chambers
>   of Kremas II and III, in which most of the killing took
>   place, the Zyklon was taken out via the wiremesh devices,
>   thus completely solving the problem that may have been caused
>   by the continuing evaporation of HCN from it; and that in
>   other gas chambers, gas masks were used.

>Frankly, I don't understand what your problem is. What do you
>fail to understand in 1) and 2) above?

	Where did you explain "many times" that the left over Zyklone B was
not 85 percent. I gave you the course of figuring, you responded:

 "And your source for the '"15%"' figure is? You have already proved
to the readers of this newsgroup that you cannot handle basic
arithmatic".

  You did not give us a demonstration of your powerful mathematical
contradiction, just the curt little wimpy statement. 

	Where did you explain "many times" that the excess Zyklone B was taken
out?  You did pull a rabbit out of the hat in your initial reply. I
suppose you have more than your dios ex machina reply, as to
extracting any excess Zyklone B from the chambers? Some document or
survivor testimony maybe, a word from Ho:ss? 

># HCN might be used in US gas chambers, but its not Zyclone B, 
># is it? We talking HCN in the format of Zyclone B, are we not? 

>Sigh. It is true that gas chambers in US prisons use a different
>source for the HCN. So what? It's still the same gas and it
>still kills people quite fast. 

	That which is used in US gas chambers is concentrate, dropped in a
solution for rapid release, intended for one individual, in a small
compartment. Zyklone B is designed for slow release - like moth balls.
	The alchohol in a can of beer is the same as the alchohol in a glass
of 151 proof rum - but you would have it that he who drinks the can of
beer would suffer the same effects as one who drank the glass of rum.

>-Danny Keren.

>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.

>-Lu Xun.




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb  3 14:06:20 PST 1996
Article: 22551 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 14:57:01 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4elk2p$l3s@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>> Considering the responses thus far, maybe we should give the
>> percentage of Zyclone B that would be used, not giving the the
>> Holocaust story the benefits of accomodation that was initially given.
>> 
>> Given the numbers that Keren gave, without accomodation, the amount of
>> Zyclone B that would be used to attain the goal would be - 
>> 8 percent - leaving 92 percent as useless, wasted, lingering, left
>> over to complicate the ventilation of the chambers, the removal of
>> bodies and the preparation for the next group.


>It is unclear what you are trying to say here, if anything, Moran. (I
>suspect you are saying nothing of worth, as usual.) What it sounds like is
>you are complaining that Zyclon-B was being "wasted" because it would have
>killed its victims before all the HCN was released, thus posing a hazard
>for the Sonderkommandos who had to remove the bodies.

>Not to belabour the point too much, but Dr. Keren has discussed this issue
>at quite some length so that even a moron, Moran, should be able to
>understand it. 

>However, Moran, it is clear that you _don't_ understand. It is also it is
>quite odd that you complain about the "inefficiencies" of using Zyclon-B
>as the method of killing. To kill 1,000 people took only  4 kg of
>Zyclon-B.[1] In the first gassing in Krema II, on March 13, 1943, only 6
>kg of Zyclon-B were used to kill almost 1,500 people at one time:

	From the figures that Keren has supplied so far, this would mean that
3400 grams of the Zyklone B would be unnecessary for the killing of
1000, and 5100 grams unnecessary for the 1500 people. These figures
use the accomodation afforded to the Holocaust story.  Without the
accomodation the figures would be 3680 grams out of 4000 and 5520
grams out of the 6000 being unnecessary.

>"Six kilos of Zyclon B were poured into the stacks that opened into the
>grillwork columns implanted between pillars that supported the ceiling.
>Within five minutes, all the victims had succembed. The aeration (8,000 cu
>m an hour) and the deaeration system (same strength) were then started up
>and, after 15 to 20 minutes, the atmosphere, which had been practically
>renewed every three to four minutes, was sufficiently pure so that
>menmbers of the Sonderkommando could enter the stifling hot gas
>chamber...." [2]

	6000 grams for five minutes would be 5100 grams unnecessary.
One should wonder how and or why, after all this ventilation the
chamber would still be "stifling hot".
 
>As we can see, whether Zyclon-B was "wasted" or not is irrelevent as it
>would have only taken 6 tonnes of Zyclon-B to kill 1,500,000 people. Of
>course, many times this amount was used at Auschwitz for delousing
>purposes to combat the typhus epidemics there. 

	Exactly. That is why it was found there - for delousing.

>Your apparant objections to the rate of HCN release of Zyclon-B being a
>hazard is a bit peculiar as well. In Kremas II and III, for example, the
>Zyclon-B was removed before the ventilation system was turned on. [3] As
>the ventilation system was powerful enough to replace the air in the
>gass-chamber every few minutes, this would mean that the air would have
>been completely replaced several times before anybody entered. How then
>would that be hazardous? 

	So far I have responded to 3 post in this thread today and they all
muster up this wire mesh introduction nad now extraction system
alleged to have existed, and yet reports have it that no signs are
apparent that it ever existed. In fact the reports show that it never
existed. Either way it has nothing to do with the inefficiency and
waste of the product.
	

>Given this, Moran, when will you realize you are being a pedantic boor
>with your inane and irrelevent "objections?" 

	Which you keep responding to. Whats the matter don't you have
confidence in your stuff? Whenever I see remarks like this one, as in
the others responded to today, I see collapse.

>Mark


>1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.215

>2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.232

>3. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.167

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb  3 14:06:21 PST 1996
Article: 22552 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 13:46:57 GMT
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	       Also titled, Great concepts worth knowing.
	
	Lately Moran has mustered up a phrase that for the most part could be
related to a magic wand, or a hat full of tricks. The phrase spelling
so far has been either "dios ex machina" or "deos ex machina", both
wrong. Apologies. Though having long known the phrase, coming across
it through crossword puzzles, I never made use of it in writing, thus
the exact spelling eluded my memory.

	The correct spelling is,  "deus ex machina".

	Random House Dictionary:
  1. "a god who resolves the entanglements of the play by his super
natural forces".
  2. "an artificial, forced or improbable device used to resolve the
difficulties of a plot".

	Like a document for every occasion, or interpreting an ant hill phrase
or word into a mountain range, or citing eye witness or second party
eyewitness testimony, special interpretation of testimony, annonymous
accounts, finding accounts in bottles buried at the 'scene of the
crime', or merely blurting out whatever suits the purpose.

	Pondering the idea of deus ex machina leads to pondering another
related principle:
 
                 Argumentum ad ignorantum:
     "An argument purporting to demonstrate a point or to persuade
people, which avails itself of facts and reasons the falsity or
inadequacy of which is not readily discerned;(or available for
validation), a misleading argument used in reliance on peoples
ignorance", (or inability to access any referrences cited as showing
proof).
  
	

                    ------------------------------

	One would think that if a person or a side had good argument for/or
against something they would rely on introducing information or logic
to show their views. Barring this we have to recognize that if anyone
resorts to blanket insults or name calling it is a sign of break down.


                   - Argumentum ad hominem: -
                  
         "An irrelvant or malicious appeal to personal circumstances;
it consists in diverting an argument from sound facts and reasons to
the personality of the opponent."
	         Calling the opponent names. 
	         Making snide little remarks.

	       Another term for it is, 'EVASION'.


	































































                    Argumentum ad Special Exception



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb  3 14:06:22 PST 1996
Article: 22553 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 15:00:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <4f00v7$ep7@zippy.cais.net>
References: <4cblcb$p1g@zippy.cais.net> <4e79si$9tc@argentina.it.earthlink.net> <4eaum1$ga6@zippy.cais.net> <31090DAF.650@kaiwan.com>  <4eitml$4vp@zippy.cais.net> <4elk2p$l3s@zippy.cais.net> 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4elk2p$l3s@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>> Considering the responses thus far, maybe we should give the
>> percentage of Zyclone B that would be used, not giving the the
>> Holocaust story the benefits of accomodation that was initially given.
>> 
>> Given the numbers that Keren gave, without accomodation, the amount of
>> Zyclone B that would be used to attain the goal would be - 
>> 8 percent - leaving 92 percent as useless, wasted, lingering, left
>> over to complicate the ventilation of the chambers, the removal of
>> bodies and the preparation for the next group.


>It is unclear what you are trying to say here, if anything, Moran. (I
>suspect you are saying nothing of worth, as usual.) What it sounds like is
>you are complaining that Zyclon-B was being "wasted" because it would have
>killed its victims before all the HCN was released, thus posing a hazard
>for the Sonderkommandos who had to remove the bodies.

>Not to belabour the point too much, but Dr. Keren has discussed this issue
>at quite some length so that even a moron, Moran, should be able to
>understand it. 

>However, Moran, it is clear that you _don't_ understand. It is also it is
>quite odd that you complain about the "inefficiencies" of using Zyclon-B
>as the method of killing. To kill 1,000 people took only  4 kg of
>Zyclon-B.[1] In the first gassing in Krema II, on March 13, 1943, only 6
>kg of Zyclon-B were used to kill almost 1,500 people at one time:

>"Six kilos of Zyclon B were poured into the stacks that opened into the
>grillwork columns implanted between pillars that supported the ceiling.
>Within five minutes, all the victims had succembed. The aeration (8,000 cu
>m an hour) and the deaeration system (same strength) were then started up
>and, after 15 to 20 minutes, the atmosphere, which had been practically
>renewed every three to four minutes, was sufficiently pure so that
>menmbers of the Sonderkommando could enter the stifling hot gas
>chamber...." [2]

>As we can see, whether Zyclon-B was "wasted" or not is irrelevent as it
>would have only taken 6 tonnes of Zyclon-B to kill 1,500,000 people. Of
>course, many times this amount was used at Auschwitz for delousing
>purposes to combat the typhus epidemics there. 

>Your apparant objections to the rate of HCN release of Zyclon-B being a
>hazard is a bit peculiar as well. In Kremas II and III, for example, the
>Zyclon-B was removed before the ventilation system was turned on. [3] As
>the ventilation system was powerful enough to replace the air in the
>gass-chamber every few minutes, this would mean that the air would have
>been completely replaced several times before anybody entered. How then
>would that be hazardous? 

>Given this, Moran, when will you realize you are being a pedantic boor
>with your inane and irrelevent "objections?" 

>Mark


>1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.215

>2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.232

>3. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.167

	Does this referrence guarantee absolute authority? Should the reader
be swayed by this?

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb  3 14:06:22 PST 1996
Article: 22554 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 15:03:32 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On 1 Feb 1996, Henrik Alm=E9n wrote:

>> There are too many jews on the earth and its a pity that the holocaust=20
>> is a lie because it would have been much better here if six million=20
>> jews was extincted.
>> SIEG HEIL !

>Not that there's anything INTRINSICALLY anti-Semitic about "questioning"=20
>the historical reality of the Holocaust, right, Mr. Moran? =20

>Gosh, where do we Holocaustclones get THAT ridiculous idea?

	How is you respond with my name to the post of another?

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)

>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show..=
>..
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one=20
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants=20





From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb  3 14:06:23 PST 1996
Article: 22561 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 15:26:18 GMT
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Lines: 109
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4etfem$o9q@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> 
>> ># "In the fall of 1944" would be about the time of mass gassing of the
>> ># Hungarian Jews, put at 400,000. We might expect that the walls and
>> ># floors of the chambers would be pretty well saturated, imbedded even,
>> ># with the super duper, terrible, omni-potent, lethal, deadly Zyklone B
>> ># and wonder about such a place doubling as a residence.
>> 
>> >The gas chambers would have been an ideal place for the SS in
>> >which to lock the sonderkommando, say during the night.
>> 
>> >The conjecture that the walls and floors would be "saturated with
>> >Zyklon-B" is more "revisionist" insanity. First, Zyklon-B
>> >cannot "saturate" anything, it's a carrier for the gas. Second,
>> >after the HCN was cleared and the chambers washed and ventilated
>> >(as indeed they were), there would not be any special problem for
>> >anyone to be inside them.
>> 
>> Well, at least you recognized that the "Zyklone B" was intended to
>> mean the HCN content.

>Too bad you didn't, eh? 

>> Exactly the response I expected. We can wait for your dios ex machina
>> document or eye witness testimony to show that the rooms were washed.

>What is "dios ex machina?" Do you, perhaps, mean "deus ex machina?" (Latin
>for "god from a machine.) A "god from a machine document?" (Oh boy, will
>the Moranics never cease?)

>Anyways, in regards to the Sonderkommandos living in the gas-chambers,
>Yehuda Backon, a survivor of Auschwitz who came into contact with
>Sonderkommando prisoners at Auschwitz II-Birkenau, testfied at the Eichman
>trial [1]:

	Yes, this would be second hand testimony. Heresay they call it.

>"Presiding judge: Describe the drawing [made close to the time of
>liberation, and accepted as an exibit by the court].

	"Drawing".

>"Answer: Here is crematorium number 2, the modern one. Number 1 and 2 were
>identical. Number 3 and 4 were somewhat less modern. Lodgings of the
>Sonderkommando men, forced to live there, were at the top.

	I guess this is before the days of "I, II, III, IV and V"?

>"Presiding judge: Inside the building?

>"Answer: In the fall of 1944 they had to live inside the crematorium, here
>on top, while some were put up in the gas chambers of crematoria nos. 3
>and 4.

>"Presiding judge: In the attic?

>"A: In crematoria 1 and 2, and in crematorium 3 and 4, they lived right
>inside the gas chambers.

>In regards to the washing of the gas-chambers, specifically bunkers 1 and
>2 ("red house" and "white house," respectively):

	"Crematoria" and "bunkers", little "red house" and "white house".
Whats a revisionist to do?

>"The Sonderkommando prisoners worked in several teams. Those servicing the
>gas chambers wore masks. Their task was to remove the bodies to the yard,
>where the gold teeth were extracted, jewelry recovered, and women's hair
>cut. Another team loaded the corpses onto the narrow-gauge trolleys and
>transported them to deep pits, where they were placed in layers and
>covered with chlorinated lime and soil. Since the entire area was
>floodlit, the work could be carried out day and night. Each time the
>bunkers were emptied, Sonderkommando prisoners whitewashed the walss and
>washed the floors." [2]

	Moving them to the yard means when the "narrow room" got over filled.
Flood lights on a procedure that is said to have been kept in secret -
when convenient.

>One might then ask if the gas-chambers of the bunkers were washed, why not
>the gas-chambers in the Kremas as well? However, irregardless if they were
>or not, from the testimony of Yehuda Backon, for example, it is known that
>the Sonderkommando _did_ "live" (sleep?) inside the gas-chambers of Kremas
>IV and V from at least the fall of 1944 on.

	Back to square one.

>Mark


>1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum, ed.; p.172.

>2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum, ed.; p.163.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb  4 06:32:41 PST 1996
Article: 22642 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "AOL Added to German Probe of Racism on Internet"
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 16:26:55 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <4f061a$g31@zippy.cais.net>
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	Headliner in L.A.Times 2/2/96

	"The company said it may face charges in Germany for permitting German
citizens to access neo-Nazi and anti-Semitic material on the global
computer network."

	"Publishing or distributing neo-Nazi literature or lierature denying
that the Holocaust occurred is illegal in Germany."

	"Prosecutors in Mannheim, Germany, are considering bringing incitement
charges against the three Internet providers for allowing access to
materials posted on the Internet by Ernst Zundel, a German neo-Nazi
living in Toronto."


	Does anyone out here have any proof that Ernst Zundel is a "neo-Nazi"?
	What is a neo-Nazi?



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb  4 07:00:41 PST 1996
Article: 22642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!gatech!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!xmission!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "AOL Added to German Probe of Racism on Internet"
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 16:26:55 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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	Headliner in L.A.Times 2/2/96

	"The company said it may face charges in Germany for permitting German
citizens to access neo-Nazi and anti-Semitic material on the global
computer network."

	"Publishing or distributing neo-Nazi literature or lierature denying
that the Holocaust occurred is illegal in Germany."

	"Prosecutors in Mannheim, Germany, are considering bringing incitement
charges against the three Internet providers for allowing access to
materials posted on the Internet by Ernst Zundel, a German neo-Nazi
living in Toronto."


	Does anyone out here have any proof that Ernst Zundel is a "neo-Nazi"?
	What is a neo-Nazi?



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:32 PST 1996
Article: 22774 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:39:05 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>	Hoss: "It could be observed through the peephole in the door that
>>those who were standing nearest to the induction vents were killed at
>>once. It can be said that about one third died straight away."

>>	"Killed at once"?  We might take this to mean 'instantaneously, right
>>away, within seconds. Interesting. From pellets? 
>>	"Straight away"? Right away, within the same time or a few more
>>seconds?

>You can read in any basically toxicology handbook that a few breathes
>at a high enough concentrations of HCN result in a blackout and death
>a few minutes later. These victims seemed to die at once and didn't
>move.

	I was expecting an answer like this, where it would be professed that
the victims had only passed out. Nevertheless, this is not what the
testimony states. It is your personal device. A deus ex machina.

>The victims who were less close to the Zyklon, tried to move away,
>since they smelled the teargas. You have several witnesses about this
>point and this too: the corpses weren't evenly distributed in the
>chamber after the gassing; fewer victims were near the pellets.

	You say the ones nearest the introduction point moved away, you say
there is witness testimony to show this, but then there is that
witness testimony that says the chambers were packed full, as many as
possible, four walls all around, no place for expansion. They would be
able to move just so far, and by the general assertions this wouldn't
be much.

>>	Lets see, this would mean that 700 or so would have died within
>>seconds, and it took up to 20 times longer to kill the other 1300.

>Hoess is like a chairman describing a factory worker's task. But let's
>go, assuming these numbers could be true.

>>	It is valid to wonder how it took only seconds to kill the one third
>>with 2% of the product and then took up to 38% more and another 19
>>minutes to kill the rest.

>I can give you two reasons:

>1/ the distance to the pellets. If you care, R. Green demonstrated in
>this NG that the diffusion at a given distance follows a function
>related to gaussian laws; it's not a linear relation distance/time,
>it's more slower.
	
	You sure he didn't leave out the effects of relativity?  "...its not a
linear distance/time, it's more slower"?  Isn't "slower" a time 	unit?

	What flim flam. Basically any application of Gauss's law equates to
the inverse square law of flux density in a three dimensional sense,
with a time/distribution factor. It also has a lot to do with the air
movement and distribution of any obstacles within the theoretical
section. Since the place had a ceiling, this in its self would have
something to do with distribution. In the end your coverage doesn't
address the very gist of the topic, Ho'ss's testimony and the release
rate/time/waste factors.

>2/ the variableness of sensitivity of the victims to the HCN. When HCN
>rates are near the average lethal dose, the poison is caracterized by
>the LD50 (the dose killing 1/2 human beeing). The number of victims
>doesn't fit a linear relation with these rates; the toxicologists
>considere the log of the rate, and even so it's not a linear relation,
>they translate theses curves into "probits", to take into account that
>the dye occurs at the same rate, with a part of randomly distributed
>factors, for an individual. The slope of the curve is depending of the
>poison.

>Then you have three non-linear relations, converging to explain why
>the death was more slow and painful for 2 victims /3 in 19/20 minutes.

	I'll have to wait for Morrison to come along and put it another way on
this last part. You must have burned yourself out writing this.
Maybe you should come back with some clear statements on the
"individual" - type of "poison" - "log" relationship. In other words
give us a comparison study, incorporating all the equations you think
relavant.
	And as I said, your address here says nothing about the 15% necessary
and the other 85% not necessary. All it is, is an attempt at denying
Ho'ss's testimony whose other testimony I assume you will hold to if
convenient for your stance.  
>MB.







From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:33 PST 1996
Article: 22775 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos Deny the Myth
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:39:17 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4euaj6$1bnm@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
>(John Morris) wrote:

>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>> >Then again we have those accounts that say they were blown up by
>> >Allied bombing.
>> 
>> Really? I've never heard of this before. Can you point me to a
>> specific account that claims the Allies destroyed the Kremas? I am
>> very keen to know more about this.

>As am I. I would _very_ much like to see Moran pull such a rabbit out of
>his denier hat. Especially considering the U.S. War Department
>specifically refused (under false pretext) several times to bomb the
>extermination facilities at Auschwitz.

>Well, Moran, what _exactly_ were "those accounts that say they [the
>Kremas] were blown up by Allied bombing?" I avidily await your usual
>twisting and squirming to avoid giving a verifiable answer.

	I recall it from out here. I'll see if I can find it with a search.
Now that you have responded to this aspect, how about the others.

>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:34 PST 1996
Article: 22776 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:39:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, Mark Van Alstine wrote:

>> In article <4etfem$o9q@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>> > dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> > 
>> > >after the HCN was cleared and the chambers washed and ventilated
>> > >(as indeed they were), there would not be any special problem for
>> > >anyone to be inside them.

>[snip]
>> 
>> > Exactly the response I expected. We can wait for your dios ex machina
>> > document or eye witness testimony to show that the rooms were washed.

>[snip]
>> 
>> Anyways, in regards to the Sonderkommandos living in the gas-chambers,
>> Yehuda Backon, a survivor of Auschwitz who came into contact with
>> Sonderkommando prisoners at Auschwitz II-Birkenau, testfied at the Eichman
>> trial [1]:
>> 
>> "Presiding judge: Describe the drawing [made close to the time of
>> liberation, and accepted as an exibit by the court].
>> 
>> "Answer: Here is crematorium number 2, the modern one. Number 1 and 2 were
>> identical. Number 3 and 4 were somewhat less modern. Lodgings of the
>> Sonderkommando men, forced to live there, were at the top.
>> 
>> "Presiding judge: Inside the building?
>> 
>> "Answer: In the fall of 1944 they had to live inside the crematorium, here
>> on top, while some were put up in the gas chambers of crematoria nos. 3
>> and 4.
>> 
>> "Presiding judge: In the attic?
>> 
>> "A: In crematoria 1 and 2, and in crematorium 3 and 4, they lived right
>> inside the gas chambers.
>> 
>> In regards to the washing of the gas-chambers, specifically bunkers 1 and
>> 2 ("red house" and "white house," respectively):
>> 
>> "The Sonderkommando prisoners worked in several teams. Those servicing the
>> gas chambers wore masks. Their task was to remove the bodies to the yard,
>> where the gold teeth were extracted, jewelry recovered, and women's hair
>> cut. Another team loaded the corpses onto the narrow-gauge trolleys and
>> transported them to deep pits, where they were placed in layers and
>> covered with chlorinated lime and soil. Since the entire area was
>> floodlit, the work could be carried out day and night. Each time the
>> bunkers were emptied, Sonderkommando prisoners whitewashed the walss and
>> washed the floors." [2]
>> 
>> One might then ask if the gas-chambers of the bunkers were washed, why not
>> the gas-chambers in the Kremas as well? However, irregardless if they were
>> or not, from the testimony of Yehuda Backon, for example, it is known that
>> the Sonderkommando _did_ "live" (sleep?) inside the gas-chambers of Kremas
>> IV and V from at least the fall of 1944 on.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> 
>> 1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum, ed.; p.172.
>> 
>> 2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum, ed.; p.163.

>What I find astounding about Mr. Moran's method of historical 
>interpretation is that the "deus ex machina" testimony referring to 
>the gas chambers being washed out after each gassing comes from PRECISELY 
>the source that he cites in the beginning of the thread.  He snidely 
>implies that any such testimony will be invented out of whole cloth, when 
>he holds in his hands the very source that contains such evidence.  Amazing.

	Who says I hold any of the testimony as a valid source? I post it to
show it's inconsistencies. Can I help it if testimonies tend to throw
each other into question? You have one testimony implying one thing
and another testimony implying something else. Deus ex machina
fictions clashing. 

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)

>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 





From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:35 PST 1996
Article: 22777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:39:57 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4eqecm$csr@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>         According to Yehuda Backon, a survivor from Birkenau and settling in
>> Jeruselem testified at the Eichmann trial:
>> 
>> Backon: "In the fall of 1944 they (the Sonderkommando) lived inside
>> the crematorium, here on top (referring to a "drawing"), while some
>> were put up in the gas chambers of crematoria nos.3 and 4."
>> 
>> Judge: "In the attic?"
>> 
>> Backon: "In crematoria 1 and 2, and in crematoria 3 and 4, they lived
>> right inside the gas chambers."
>>                           ---------------
>> 
>>         "In the fall of 1944" would be about the time of mass gassing of the
>> Hungarian Jews, put at 400,000. 

>Actually, Moran, the majority of the 438,000 Hungarian Jews were
>transported to Auschwitz between May 15 and July 9, 1944. That is the late
>spring and summer, not the fall of 1944. 

>> We might expect that the walls and floors of the chambers would be
>pretty well 
>> saturated, imbedded even, with the super duper, terrible, omni-potent,
>lethal, 
>> deadly Zyklone B and wonder about such a place doubling as a residence.

>Dr. Keren, has already addressed this in a previous post:

>> >The conjecture that the walls and floors would be "saturated with
>> >Zyklon-B" is more "revisionist" insanity. First, Zyklon-B
>> >cannot "saturate" anything, it's a carrier for the gas. Second,
>> >after the HCN was cleared and the chambers washed and ventilated
>> >(as indeed they were), there would not be any special problem for
>> >anyone to be inside them.

>I notice that rather address his comments directly, you re-post your
>"'revisionis' insanity." Why is that, Moran? Run out of "ideas?"

>> Perhaps a document or additional survivor testimony will pop up to
>> show that the workers wore their gas masks while bedding down in the
>> gas chambers. Who ever comes up with the document should try to give
>> it a little extra force by having it show that the workers stayed in
>> there during the day seeing how it is said that the mass
>> exterminations took place at night.

>And what evidence do _you_ have that shows that mass-exterminations in
>Kremas IV and V, where the Sonderkommando slept in the gas-chambers, took
>place at night? Did they take place _all_ night long or just part of the
>night? Or did they, perhaps, take place mostly during the day during this
>period? 

	Every Holocaust book I have looked into asserts the night time
operation almost exclusively. But wait, aren't you the 'Sometimes the
Holocaust was carried out for secrecy, and sometimes it wasn't,
depending on whether or not it facilitates the myth' expert? You tell
us all about it.  
       Regardless, the story's testimony has people living in the gas
chambers, which is comical. 
	

>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:35 PST 1996
Article: 22778 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "AOL Added to German Probe of Racism on Internet"
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:40:05 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 19
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hmazal@txdirect.net wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>[L.A. Times article deleted]
>>  
>>  	Does anyone out here have any proof that Ernst Zundel is a "neo-Nazi"?
>>  	What is a neo-Nazi?


>Mr. Moran knows how to use a mirror, I presume?

Harry's idea of empirical response. Well I can only guess that Harry
can't come up, up, up, with a direct empirical answer.  

>Harry W. Mazal OBE





From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:36 PST 1996
Article: 22779 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BIG QUESTION IV
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:40:11 GMT
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	What exactly is a Nazi?



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:37 PST 1996
Article: 22780 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:41:06 GMT
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Message-ID: <4f58i2$158@zippy.cais.net>
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mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <4f00v7$ep7@zippy.cais.net>, tom moran  wrote:
>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>>1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.215
>>
>>>2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.232
>>
>>>3. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.167
>>
>>	Does this referrence guarantee absolute authority? Should the reader
>>be swayed by this?

>    The reader should read the references and decide whether they are 
>valid or not.

>    Of course, Tommy Moran gives NO references to show why 200,000,000
>trees (over the course of most of a century) is a false number. 
>(Interestingly, I recently read about a forest fire in Israel destroying
>2,000,000 trees.  Was that also a "Zioexaggeration?")

	The article doesn't say anything about how long they've been planting
trees that came to total 200,000,000. 200 million trees in the area of
Israel is rediculous. Maybe if it had a climate similar to New Jersey
for instance, it might not be so rediculous. But hold it. There was
that article that professed that New Jersey's climate and Israel's
climate are simular, which is of course is absurd. As ask in the
initial post, Where is the photo? in regard to the sketch that was
shown that looked like someplace in Oregon. The area of Israel is put
at about 8000 square miles, making it 25,000 trees per square mile.
Excluding any areas used for agriculture, road, buildings and etc. we
might think it would have to be more like 40,000 trees per square
mile. This could get to be a problem. All the Israelis would have to
get around by swinging from tree to tree. Then their arms might start
to get longer and there toes would become longer and eventually they
might even grow tails.
	Anyway, the claim of Israel planting 200,000,000 trees is idiotic and
here you are endorsing it. 

>    Of course, Tommy Moran gives NO references for his claims that 
>"Schindler's List" was a bomb in Oklahoma.

	It was a bomb. SPLAT.  Marty Kelley has offered his source to deny
this and I will deal with that in a couple of days.

>    Of course, Tommy Moran gives NO references for his menorah claims. 
>(Still in the process of being retrieved, I guess.  What, it's been how
>many months since he made his "boasterous" claims about how stupid we'd
>all look when he found them?  Just what is he doing to retrieve them -
>blowing a dog whistle and saying, "Here, reference!  Here, reference!" and
>execting them to come?  Is it just me, or is Tommy Moran the one looking 
>pretty stupid here?)

	Is this were I revealed that Jews, in an attempt to have the cross
banned from display on the grounds it was a religious symbol, claimed
the menorah was okay because it was a "secular" symbol? Is that the
one you don't believe in because it sounds so absurd that it couldn't
be true?
>    Does Tommy Moran's Because! I! Say! So! guarantee absolute authority? 
>Should the reader be swayed by what Tommy Moran says? 

	Take the empirical route.    From where do you get this absolute
opinion?  Everything is posted out here. Anyone who wants to respond
can. This is the way it is - Someone posts something, someone
responds, then a counter response - etc. Nothing is forced. No one is
forced to read, none are forced to respond.
	Geeeeeeee. Whats your problem. Here you and your peers have been out
here trailing me around leaving responses like "little Tommy",
"Granite Boy", "worm", "cur", "shmuck", and a host of other droppings.
I'm starting to feel like a fire hydrant. Whats up? Its not getting
the response you were hoping for?  "Granite Boy". I kind of like that.

>    Posted/emailed.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:38 PST 1996
Article: 22781 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:41:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:



	Since the HCN is said to have pasting properties, we assume some of it
is pasted to the bodies of the victims. You mention that it is
absorbed into the body and sweat might aid in the process of
absorbtion. This makes sense, since it would put the HCN into a liguid
solution. The gas chambers are said to have been "stifling hot",
people crammed in next to each other causing further reasons to sweat,
the sondercommandos are said to have to evacuate them, up stairs, a
thousand or so per load, which would make them sweat, which it
wouldn't matter if they were wearing gloves or not, we could suppose
that the HCN from the bodies would mix with the sweat of the
sondercommandos and their clothes would have become saturated with the
'deadly' substance.
	Who knows. Maybe a deus ex machina document or some eye witness
testimony will pop up to show that the sondercommandos all wore rubber
suits.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:39 PST 1996
Article: 22782 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos Deny the Myth
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 15:07:50 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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stephane.bruchfeld@mailbox.swipnet.se (Stephane Bruchfeld) wrote:


>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote in
><4f01qt$ev2@zippy.cais.net>:

>>stephane.bruchfeld@mailbox.swipnet.se (Stephane Bruchfeld) wrote:


>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote in
>>><4eo8am$6d9@zippy.cais.net>:


>>>>	The Holocaust story claims that people were taken to Auschwitz for
>>>>extermination. The story tells us that a selection process took place
>>>>where those shown to be unfit to work as slave laborers were taken
>>>>directly to the gas chambers.
>>>>	Among the many photos that exist that document various aspects of the
>>>>camp are those taken at the time of liberation, where we can see a
>>>>barracks full of elderly women, groups standing at a fence, with
>>>>elderly and children. 


>>>Mr. Moran, there is also a whole series of photographs
>>>documenting the arrival of a "transport" and the subsequent
>>>selection, taken by the SS themselves. There is a whole caravan
>>>of children with their mothers and elderly people to be seen on
>>>their way from the platform to Crematorium II. Why are they
>>>heading in that direction, do you think?

	First of all I don't beleive in a Crematoria II killing center, and I
don't believe in many of the captions under photos. In fact I will do
a little treatment on it.
	The "selection" process I always take to mean the selection of those
who will live and those who will die. One photo in a book shows
Hungarian Jews arrivals at Birkenau with the "selection" word used in
the copy. It is men on one side lined up, and the women on another.
The photo might have us believe it is for THE "selection".

>>	How do you know they were on their way to any crematoria?

>They are heading in the direction of Crematorium II, which is
>obvious by just looking at the photographs. Or do you have any
>positive evidence to show that these people were put in section
>B1b of the camp? That are really the only two choices here. There
>was nothing else in that part of the camp.



>>Why would
>>the SS take pictures of something that is professed to have been
>>concerned with secrecy? Fact is, many of the photos taken are
>>attributed to the SS.

>Coming from you that is a specious question. You see, if there
>were no photos at all you would use this as "proof" that the
>Nazis did not exterminate the Jews. In fact, I think you have
>used this argument elsewhere. But now the fact that there are
>photographs is also used by you to "prove" that there was no
>extermination. So you win, every time. That is all very well if
>your goal is to deny whatever you wish to deny. But it is hardly
>a scientific approach.

	You can think what you want, but "it is hardly a scientific approach".
>Posted and e-mailed.




>--
>Stephane Bruchfeld
>stephane.bruchfeld@mailbox.swipnet.se
>Address: Box 34036, S-100 26 Stockholm, Sweden

>"Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine taetige Unwissenheit" -
>Goethe






From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:39 PST 1996
Article: 22784 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos Deny the Myth
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 15:09:20 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <4f5a6t$1gj@zippy.cais.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <4eo8am$6d9@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said:

>>	The Holocaust story claims that people were taken to Auschwitz for
>>extermination. The story tells us that a selection process took place
>>where those shown to be unfit to work as slave laborers were taken
>>directly to the gas chambers.
>>	Among the many photos that exist that document various aspects of the
>>camp are those taken at the time of liberation, where we can see a
>>barracks full of elderly women, groups standing at a fence, with elderly
>>and children. 

>So what is your point, oh clueless one?  *At the time of liberation*, the
>Germans couldn't very well still be killing the Jews, now could they?
Then it is your assertion that those elderly were brought in after the
Nazis stopped killing people?
>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331

>         




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:40 PST 1996
Article: 22785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!suck-feed.internetmci.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 15:14:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>  
>>  >Anyways, in regards to the Sonderkommandos living in the gas-chambers,
>>  >Yehuda Backon, a survivor of Auschwitz who came into contact with
>>  >Sonderkommando prisoners at Auschwitz II-Birkenau, testfied at the Eichman
>>  >trial [1]:
>>  
>>  	Yes, this would be second hand testimony. Heresay they call it.
>>  
>>  
>	First, the word is "hearsay."  Second, it would only be "hearsay" if he 
>repeated what the Sonderkommandos stated.  Third, it is not "second hand" 
>since he testifying as to his own knowledge (as the remainder of the colloquey 
>makes clear) but from his knowledge gleaned by his contact with the 
>Sonderkommandos.  Fourth I suggest you read Federal Rule of Evidence 804 (5) 
>and the comments thereto.

	He was relating what he said he got from contact with actual
sondercommandos. He was using a sketch which the court allowed. the
court allowed and accepted what US courts would have rejected. Of
course if you had been Eichman's lawyer you would not have objected to
it right?

>>  >In regards to the washing of the gas-chambers, specifically bunkers 1 and
>>  >2 ("red house" and "white house," respectively):
>>  
>>  	"Crematoria" and "bunkers", little "red house" and "white house".
>>  Whats a revisionist to do?

>	In your case, the first step would be to learn how to read.  The second 
>step would be how to think rationally.  You do neither.

	Yale's closing statement. Did you use this practice in your legal
practice?


>	--YFE  





From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 09:59:41 PST 1996
Article: 22786 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "AOL Added to German Probe of Racism on Internet"
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 15:18:02 GMT
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4f1c5v$1lh@nimitz.fibr.net>,   wrote:
>>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>[L.A. Times article deleted]
>>>  
>>>  	Does anyone out here have any proof that Ernst Zundel is a "neo-Nazi"?
>>>  	What is a neo-Nazi?
>>
>>
>>Mr. Moran knows how to use a mirror, I presume?
>>
>>Harry W. Mazal OBE

>Although I'm not sure why we bother with the "neo."

	Richards idea of making a statement of fact.

>Regards,

>Rich Green

>-- 
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Richard J. Green
>Department of Chemistry
>Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>http://chem.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 11:09:16 PST 1996
Article: 22789 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,can.politics,soc.culture.germany,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: HOLO-HOAX
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 15:31:19 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On 31 Jan 1996, Bill Smith wrote:

>>  
>>  The holocaust MYTH!!!! thats what it is!!! and its high time you all
>> realized it.. Anyone got any good deals on a good Kike lampshade?

>Gee, why would anyone ever get the idea that Holocaust deniers are 
>anti-Semites?  Tom Moran and Al Baron keep assuring us that there's no 
>connection between the two...

	Where is that? 
             

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)

>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 





From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb  5 15:01:10 PST 1996
Article: 22807 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The more plans I see ... Part II
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 15:36:11 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>>	How to design a facility for mass extermination of hundreds of
>>thousands of people.
>>	In the rediculous book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp", we are
>>given the renditions and floor plans of German designs for crematoria
>>- gassing process. 

>>	Build a structure about 30 by 100 feet, complete with eleven multipane
>>French windows and six dormers with multipane windows, giving it a
>>nice look.
>>	Give it one entrance through a ell vestibule with 2 multipane French
>>doors. Build the smoke stack right next to the entrance.

>I can't for the life of me understand what your objection to the
>position of the smokestack might be unless you are suggesting that the
>SS built a crematorium but didn't burn any bodies in it because the
>smokestack is some how nonfunctional. Please explain.

>Did you really read Pressac's article, or did you just flip it open to
>one of the plans in figures 14, 15, or 16 looking for something to
>complain about? If you had really read the article, you would know
>that the plans reproduced in _Anatomy_ were proposals for facilities
>to be built at Auschwitz but which were actually built at Birkenau.
>And the plans changed before the Kremas were built.

>The entrance for the victims was not through the ell-shaped vestibule
>since what you call a vestibule was where the chimney was put--in the
>middle of the ell extension--when they actually built the building.
>You will also notice on the proposed Auschwitz design that the
>buildings are oriented along a north-south axis. In the actual
>construction at Birkenau, the buildings are oriented east-west as you
>could plainly see if you looked at the aerial photo of May 31, 1944
>reproduced on page 341 of the _Anatomy_. So they are not plans for any
>building that was finally built.

>>	Inside using 1/2 the available floor space build 5 ovens.
>>	Under ground, extending from the end of the building build an air raid
>>..., er a gassing facility about 20 by 70 feet, with stairs leading
>>down from the main surface structure.

>Bzzt. Wrong again. The entrance for the undressing room which led into
>the actual gas chamber was at the extreme west end of the underground
>structure designated in the plans as a Leichenkeller (corpse cellar,
>or morgue). When the original plan for Birkenau was to gas the victims
>in the Bunker I (the red farmhouse) and transport the bodies to the
>Krema, a ramp was built to make it easier to get the bodies into the
>Leichenkellers. When the plans changed again, the ramp was torn out
>and a staircase put in its place. It is apparent at this point that
>the corpses were expected to walk down into the Leichenkeller on their
>own. In other words, they were not yet corpses when they entered the
>Krema.

>>	Procede with the operational steps.

>>	 File up thousands of people to the French doors. File in 3 to 4
>>hundred at a time into the oven area. Turn right and file down to the
>>end and turn left. Turn right through a standard sized door. Enter
>>through standard sized door to staircase and file the hundreds down to
>>subterrainian chamber. Gas the people 3 to 4 hundred at a time. Take
>>bodies out one at a time, up stairs and through the standard size
>>doors to oven room. Stack up bodies wherever while waiting for
>>cremation. Go get another 3 or 4 hundred. Keep it up, day after day,
>>week after week, month after month, year after year.

>Aside from having the entire traffic flow wrong (you have the victims
>entering through the smokestack), the last point that you missed is
>that a freight elevator was installed to transport bodies from the
>underground Leichenkeller up to the crematorium proper.

>Now, you might have a valid objection to this procedure by asking why
>the victims were gassed below ground and then taken up to ground level
>to be burned; it is, after all, a terribly inefficient plan. But don't
>forget that the reason for moving the whole installation to Birkenau
>in the first place was to put it close to the makeshift gas chamber in
>Bunker I. The morgues at this point were intended to be
>morgues--temporary storage for the bodies. They make sense as morgues
>because the average lower temperature below ground would delay
>putrefaction. The decision to abandon the Bunkers and perform the
>gassing in a converted morgue was a late decision, and the decision to
>put in a freight elevator, a late accomodation in a building that was
>nearly completed.

>Based upon the experience gained in the building of Kremas II and III,
>the SS adopted the much more sensible procedure of placing the gas
>chamber at the same level at the crematorium in Kremas IV and V.

	Actually I left out a couple of very inportant factors in running
through the traffic jamming, bumping into each other, filing the new
victims in past piles of the already etc. The undressing, and the
extraction of teeth. I plan on rewriting the whole thing with this in
included.
	For you to say that the highly efficient Germans needed the above
ground/below ground experience of II and III to recognize, what you
admit would be a "terribly inefficient plan", to avoid the same
mistake in building IV and V is absurd. 

	Why don't you post the proper step by step scenario, from unloading
the train to selection of those who would live and those who would
die, to their filing up to the building by the thousands, entering,
proceding to the cellars, taking their clothes off, entering the gas
chamber, the transport of the discarded clothes up the stairs and out
of the building, unloading of the bodies, up the stairs, to the
"narrow room" were they would be laid out one by one, hair cut off,
teeth pulled out, then taken into the oven area, stacked up,
eventually cremated, the ashes removed to outside the building, all
this taking place in and immediately about a building no mare than 30
by 100 feet, with an ajoining cellar.
	Did I leave anything out?  

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca





From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:30 PST 1996
Article: 22942 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos Deny the Myth
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:15:09 GMT
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adam3t@aol.com (Adam 3T) wrote:

>Moran deserves the same ignominious unrecorded tragic kind of death that
>he
>tries to mock with his insulting antisemitic innuendoes.
>
>                                                                        
>Adam
>                                                                        
>The Leo Frank Brigade

	Perhaps you should prove the "anti-Semitism", step by step.
I'll be waiting to see if you cabn do it or whetyer or not your just a
cybernet hero with a phony name.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:31 PST 1996
Article: 22944 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 14:59:30 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <4evslf$c8g@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said:
>
>>	       Also titled, Great concepts worth knowing.
>>	
>>	Lately Moran has mustered up a phrase that for the most part could be
>>related to a magic wand, or a hat full of tricks. The phrase spelling so
>>far has been either "dios ex machina" or "deos ex machina", both wrong.
>>Apologies. Though having long known the phrase, coming across it through
>>crossword puzzles, I never made use of it in writing, thus the exact
>>spelling eluded my memory.
>
>>	The correct spelling is,  "deus ex machina".
>
>Ah yes, the crossword puzzles.  The fountain of all knowledge.  ROTFLMAO.
>
	Is this stated someplace?

>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:32 PST 1996
Article: 22945 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:00:10 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4f58if$158@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>> 
>
>Uh, what exactly _did_ Mr. Beaulieu write, Moran?
>
>> Since the HCN is said to have pasting properties, we assume some of it
>> is pasted to the bodies of the victims. 
>
>Who said this? What evidence was supplied as to such "pasting properties?"
>
>> You mention that it is absorbed into the body and sweat might aid in the 
>> process of absorbtion. This makes sense, since it would put the HCN into a 
>> liguid solution. 
>
>Who'sweat, Moran? The sweat of those killed by HCN from the Zyclon-B? You
>must remember that HCN kills rather quickly, which makes the ideas of the
>corpses having enough HCN in their sweat to matter rather doubtful. (It's
>kind of hard for a _corpse_ to pump HCN laden blood to the sweat glands to
>be expired, Moran.) Or do you insist that a contact-lethal dose of HCN
>remained _after_ the gas-chambers were ventilated? I suppose you have the
>proper calculations at hand to support this assumption? 

	They sweat, the pasting HCN sticks to their bodies, gets into
solution, the sondercommando pick them up, one after another unto
thousands, he sweats, the pasted HCN on the bodies solutes into the
sondercommando's sweat, saturates his clothes, he goes on. What kind
of calculations do you want? 
>
>> The gas chambers are said to have been "stifling hot", people crammed in
>next > to each other causing further reasons to sweat,the sondercommandos
>are said to 
>> have to evacuate them, up stairs, a thousand or so per load, which would
>make > them sweat, which it wouldn't matter if they were wearing gloves or
>not, we 
>> could suppose that the HCN from the bodies would mix with the sweat of the
>> sondercommandos and their clothes would have become saturated with the
>> 'deadly' substance.
>
>A rather large chain of "ifs," Moran. All presupposed on the "pasting
>properties" and concentrations of HCN in the ventilated gas-chambers.
>Again, I suppose you have the proper calculations that supports these
>assumptions ready to share with us? 

	"Proper calculations"?
>
>> Who knows. Maybe a deus ex machina document or some eye witness
>> testimony will pop up to show that the sondercommandos all wore rubber
>> suits.
>
>And who knows, maybe one will "pop up" relating that the Sonderkommado
>often used ropes to haul the corpses?  
>
	I'd like to see the this explained. Go ahead, this should be
good. Anyway, thanks for the eventual endorsement of my points. Hows
this you say? Well I raised the point of how the sondercommando would
most likely get himself covered with the toxic substance and here you
are saying he used ropes. Lets hear the full deus ex machina from the
Holocaust Batman utility belt. 

>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:32 PST 1996
Article: 22946 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:00:35 GMT
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <4f58i2$158@zippy.cais.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>>    Of course, Tommy Moran gives NO references to show why 200,000,000
>>>trees (over the course of most of a century) is a false number. 
>>>(Interestingly, I recently read about a forest fire in Israel destroying
>>>2,000,000 trees.  Was that also a "Zioexaggeration?")
>
>>        The article doesn't say anything about how long they've been planting
>>trees that came to total 200,000,000. 200 million trees in the area of
>>Israel is rediculous. 
>
>
>Why?  It has been demonstrated here *repeatedly* that this is a false 
>assumption and that 200 million trees will quite easily fit in Israel if 
>planted all at once, let alone over 90 years, which is the number of years 
>*you* stated that the organization responsible had been in existance.
>
>Nice try, pinhead.
>
	"Pinhead". Gosh, such bitterness. Well anyway your above still
does nothing to show that the trees were planted over the period or
since Israel was conceived. Are you saying that the readers should
believe that the Jews planted 200,000,000 over any period of time?
	AS I pointed out, we were given a sketch of the results, pine
trees on a rolling hill vista, not a photo. Maybe you could direct the
readers to a readily accesible source they can view today that would
substantiate the claim. (Wcwuycbwhtdaaufl) The ad would imply that the
trees were planted for enviromental reasons.
>
>>Maybe if it had a climate similar to New Jersey
>>for instance, it might not be so rediculous. But hold it. There was
>>that article that professed that New Jersey's climate and Israel's
>>climate are simular, which is of course is absurd. As ask in the
>>initial post, Where is the photo? in regard to the sketch that was
>>shown that looked like someplace in Oregon. The area of Israel is put
>>at about 8000 square miles, making it 25,000 trees per square mile.
>>Excluding any areas used for agriculture, road, buildings and etc. we
>>might think it would have to be more like 40,000 trees per square
>>mile. This could get to be a problem. All the Israelis would have to
>>get around by swinging from tree to tree. Then their arms might start
>>to get longer and there toes would become longer and eventually they
>>might even grow tails.
>
>I'll leave aside the 40 000 figure because Moran claims an absolute and 
>pulls it out of his hat without any sort of documentation.
>
>So let's take the 25 000.  Looking at the woodlot that grows beside this 
>University, used by our Forestry and Forest Engineering programs, I note 
>that the trees are growing quite well about ten feet apart.  If we assume 
>they are planted in a square, this gives each tree a 5 by 5 foot square or 
>25 square feet.  With 25 000 trees and 25 square feet apiece we get a grand 
>total of 625 000 square feet for the 25 000 trees.
>
	Ah, am I missing something here. I'll take the chance on
Murray coming back with something bitter, but I just have to do it.
You say the trees are 10 feet apart which would then cause them, if
laid out in a square, to be in a 5 by 5 foot area?

>Oh dear.  A square mile is 27 878 400 square feet.  625 000 square feet is 
>2.2 percent of a square mile, leaving 97.8 percent for everything else.
>
>Well, let us up the distance between trees to 20 feet which is pretty damn 
>far for a planted forest.  Each tree now has 100 sqaure feet, giving a total 
>area  of 2 500 000 square feet for 20 000 trees.
>
>Oh my.  That still only takes up 8.96 percent of a square mile, leaving 
>91.04 percent for averything else.
>
	Murray, why don't you just come out and give the figures for
how many square feet out of the total land available for each tree.
Don't forget, make allowance for no trees to any extent on
agricultural areas, beach areas, roads, buildings, and any other areas
of ilk. 
	In fact, as a matter of showing fair accomodation, just go
ahead and use the full area of Israel in your calculations and not use
the above as extenuating factors.
	Now how many square feet per tree in Israel, not how many in
the lot next door.
	Don't forget the refference to the photographic documentation
that should be available. Where are the photos?
	Show your not trying to perpetuate a lie.
>
>All this assumes the following:
>
>   1.  The trees were planted at the same time
>   2.  They all lived and grew
>   3.  They were never replaced.
>
>Assumption 1 is probably false given that Moran has stated himself that the 
>agency responsible for the number of trees claim has been around since the 
>first decade of this century.
>
>Assumption 2 is clearly false since you can plant a whole bunch of trees and 
>many will not grow up because the plantations are trimmed, some fall victim 
>to disease, some are cut down to use et cetera.  I know this is true because 
>I grew up in a region that bases almost its whole economy on three things: 
>fishing, mining and forestry.
>
>Assumption 3 follows from assuption 2.  If a tree dies and you replace it, 
>you now have two trees taking up the exact same space over an extended 
>period of time, thus if replacement has occurred the total area required for 
>your trees drops accordingly.
>
>
>>        Anyway, the claim of Israel planting 200,000,000 trees is idiotic and
>>here you are endorsing it. 
>
>
>No, it's not.  What is idiotic, Granite Boy, is your continued preoccupation 
>with claiming that it is impossible when it is clearly not.
>
>
>>>    Of course, Tommy Moran gives NO references for his claims that 
>>>"Schindler's List" was a bomb in Oklahoma.
>
>>        It was a bomb. SPLAT.  Marty Kelley has offered his source to deny
>>this and I will deal with that in a couple of days.
>
>
>If it's anything like this ridiculous tree non-proof you offer Marty is in 
>no danger of being proven wrong.
>
>
>>        Geeeeeeee. Whats your problem. Here you and your peers have been out
>>here trailing me around leaving responses like "little Tommy",
>>"Granite Boy", "worm", "cur", "shmuck", and a host of other droppings.
>>I'm starting to feel like a fire hydrant. Whats up? Its not getting
>>the response you were hoping for?  "Granite Boy". I kind of like that.
>
>Glad you do, because you're stuck with it after that ridiculous statement 
>that granite is a metamorphic rock.  And after you'd been proudly touting 
>your geological knowledge too.
>
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:33 PST 1996
Article: 22947 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:00:50 GMT
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schultr@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: >    Of course, Tommy Moran gives NO references for his claims that 
>: >"Schindler's List" was a bomb in Oklahoma.
>
>: 	It was a bomb. SPLAT.  Marty Kelley has offered his source to deny
>: this and I will deal with that in a couple of days.
>
>It seems, Mr. Moran, that you have forgotten that I already posted my
>source: _The 1996 World Almanac and Book of Facts_, which has a listing
>of "Top Movies of 1994," and reports in that list that (a) Schindler's
>List grossed $91.1 million dollars in 1994 and (b) it had been released
>in 1993, and the amount that it grossed in 1993 was not included in the
>total listed in part (a).
>
>As I asked at the time -- what reason do you have do dispute the figures
>in this source?  Or is the World Almanac part of the JOOOSH conspiracy?
>
	I used to know a guy who worked for Dunn and Bradstreet and
his job was to attain information from companies that were given
credit ratings by this high and mighty establishment authority and
compiler. He said he did all his work over the phone, to any
particular company, who would give the information that would result
in their own credit rating. He used to mock the situation and knew of
many cases were it turned out not to be true.
	Now how do you think your World Almanac gets it's information?

Considering the amount of coverage the movie got in the papers I read,
NY, LA Times, and a couple of others, there isn't one article that
features it's popularity in the US. The only article I saw that does
freature comment on attendance was the one that cited low attendance
in Europe, theorizing on the cause due to it being in black and white
and three hours long. (See relevant post yet untitled. You'll
recognize it.) 

	How did it do in Israel?
>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"You don't even have a clue as to which clue you're missing." -- Miss Manners



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:34 PST 1996
Article: 22948 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BIG QUESTION IV
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:01:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <4f58g9$158@zippy.cais.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>        What exactly is a Nazi?
>
>Strictly speaking: 
>
>a member of the National Socialist Party in Germany in the period up to 1945 
>or a person who publically identifies themselves with the politics of said 
>organization
>
>
>In common use:
>
>a person who indicates a belief system that is in general agreement with the 
>positions of the Nazi Party.  Among these beliefs are legal discrimination 
>based on parentage; disenfranchisement of populations deemed to be sub-
>human, among other terms; belief in inherent superiority of ones own "race"; 
>racism; belief in an authoritarian system based somewhat on Nietsche's 
>"superman" concept.
>
>I assume you ghet the idea.

	Thank you. I would guess that a "neo-Nazi" is the same?
>
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca






From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:34 PST 1996
Article: 22949 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BIG QUESTION IV
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:01:35 GMT
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ral007@omni.voicenet.com (Polattolah) wrote:

>
>>        What exactly is a Nazi?
>
>Anybody believing that a group of like cultured people thrive best in a 
>particular homeland, and protect their nationalistic identity.
>
>A good example of NAZI's would be Israeli Jews.
	
	You know, you might be able to present considerable
"documentary" and "eyewitness" accounts to prove this, but it would
probably be all "anti-Semitic". And then there is that 'special
exemption rule' - 'Oh, thats different'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:35 PST 1996
Article: 22950 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BIG QUESTION IV
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:01:48 GMT
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pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>ral007@omni.voicenet.com (Polattolah) wrote:
>
>
>>>        What exactly is a Nazi?
>
>>Anybody believing that a group of like cultured people thrive best in a 
>>particular homeland, and protect their nationalistic identity.
>
>>A good example of NAZI's would be Israeli Jews.
>Ah, yes, another churlish oaf heard from, could you care to tell us in
>what ghettos the Non-Jews of Israel live in, oh, and could you tell us
>when Israel inacted a law that all non-Jewish citizens would be
>deprived of their rights of Citizenship, lastly since when did
>religion become a "nationalistic identity" or is this just more Nazi,
>White wimp Caca?? 
>
	You mean that Israel is a religious state? What is a ghetto? A
slum? A place that birds of a feather flock together? Or what?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:36 PST 1996
Article: 22951 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Big Push Holocaust.
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:02:07 GMT
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	"Israelis Pay Homage to American 'Schindler'"
	        L.A. Times, Feb. 6, 96

Sub headlined, "Holocaust: Christopher Joins rites for Varian Fry, who
rescued nearly 4,000 Jews despite U.S. resistance".
________________________________________________________________________________

	"In 1967, an American freelance writer named Varian Fry died
at age 59 in obscurity.
	Two books about his adventures in German - occupied France
sold poorly. Most of the people he knew during WWII never cantacted
him after he returned to the U.S. And the U.S. government that had
once reprimanded him never apologized."

 
	"Fry was an American Oskar Schindler ..."  "Fry saved nearly
4,000 Jews -- almost four times the number saved by Schindler"

	"Fry used visas in his first effort to get Jews out of France.
Then he turned to purloined or forged passports, false travel
credentials and any other device he could think of to help get the
Jews to safety."

	'"Regretfully, during his life-time, his heroic actions never
received the support they deserved from my government"', Christopher
acknowledged."

	"It is therefore with pride, but also with humility, that I
come here (Yad Vashem) today, ..." Christopher said. 

	"Fry's adventure ended when he was arrested by French
authorities acting with the approval of the U.S.Embassy."

	
	I think we might be in store for another rite in Washington.
All the Congress and Hollywood out on the lawns begging forgiveness
for United States complicity in the Holocaust.

	 


  


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:37 PST 1996
Article: 22952 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran in the Headlines
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:02:20 GMT
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   The Best Damn Alt.Revisionism Clone Titles You'll Ever See	
_____________________________________________________________________________________

	"Just what is Moran talking about?"

	"Translating Mr. Moran"

	"Just What Language is Moran Speaking"

	"Tom Moran: Is English His Native Language"

	"Some "explicits" Mr. Moran"

	"Mr. Moran's blatant forgeries"

	"Tom Moran's reality list"

	"Mr. Moran can't even keep a thread straight"

	"Moran-Geologist at large"

	"Mr. Moran gets one right"

	"Mr. Moran's attention deficit disorder"

	"Moran - hypocrite at large"

	"A lesson for Mr. Moran"

	"Mr. Moran gets one right again"
	
	"Tom Moran, Shakespeare scholar"

	"Moran. Where are you Granite Boy?"

	"The statistically invalid Moran Poll"

	"The Trial of Tom Moran"	

	"Moran, Moran, Moran, Lost your nerve?"

	"Tom Moran, attorney at law"

	"Tom Moran white feathers"

	"To Err Is Moran"
	
	"A MORANIC BURST OF HONESTY" 
	
	"Tommy the skolar"

	"Tom Moran lies about Schindler's List"

	"Moran's ignorance makes him look stupid"

	"A message for Moran"

	"Moran, the gutless wonder"

	"How does Moran run and hide"

	"Will Moran set the record straight?"

	"Moran lies again"

	"Moran weasels again"

	"Tom "Revisionist scientist" Moran"


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:38 PST 1996
Article: 22953 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom "Revisionist Scientist" Moran (Re: "..they lived right inside )
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:02:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Moran also claimed that it would have been impossible to use
>HCN gas in the Krema I gas chamber, because it would endanger
>the SS living nearby, bla-bla.

	"Bla-bla"? We're talking about the highly toxic Zyklone B
being released right in the vicinity of the Gestapo Office, The SS
Hospital and the Commodants Office are we. 
> 
>He forgot however, that even "revisionists" admit there are
>cyanide traces on the walls of this gas chamber, proving
>beyond doubt Zyklon-B was indeed used in it.
> 
	You say that even revisionists admit to traces? But do they
agree with the idea it was a gas chamber? Do they theorize on any
traces ever coming from fumigation of the premises? Rubbing off of
peoples clothes? I would think everyone had their clothes fumigated,
even the SS. I would even imagine that everyone was walking around
with traces of HCN on them.

>This is but one proof Moran has no idea what he's talking
>about. His knowledge of science is zero and his capacity
>for rational analysis is smaller.

	At least I had enough sense to figure out that only 15% or
less Zyklone B would be actually availed upon, and the other 85% or
more was wasted, leftover, lingering to complicate the ensuing
functions of ventilation and unloading the thousands of bodies.  I
take it those in the cremation section and all the guards were wearing
gas masks too?
> 
>Thus, it is hardly a surprise that Moran is becoming a "leading
>revisionist scholar".

	Thank you for your scholarly treatment.
> 
> 

>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 11:41:38 PST 1996
Article: 22954 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:02:43 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <4evuj3$eb0@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said:
>
>
>>>2) The wiremesh devices for removing the Zyklon from the gas chambers
>>>   in Kremas II and III are mentioned, for instance, in "Anatomy
>>>   of the Auschwitz Death Camp", p. 167, and also in Pressac's book
>>>   and in the excellenet book "Nazi Mass Murder" (Yale University
>>>   Press, 1993).
>
>>	Citing a page in a book doesn't guarantee validity does it?
>>What do have to say about reports about no sign of these mesh systems
>>exist in the buildings. Caecaa reports his own eyewitness account under
>>"Re:Pellets, showers, pourous pillars".
>
>Why don't *you* try citing a page from a book some time?  No, it doesn't
>guarantee validity, but it's a hell of a lot closer than your inane
>ramblings.
>
	Okay. I accept your answer of "No".
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>        



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 13:32:37 PST 1996
Article: 22957 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 14:59:21 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> 	The correct spelling is,  "deus ex machina".
>
>[snip]
>
>> 	Like a document for every occasion, or interpreting an ant hill phrase
>> or word into a mountain range, or citing eye witness or second party
>> eyewitness testimony, special interpretation of testimony, annonymous
>> accounts, finding accounts in bottles buried at the 'scene of the
>> crime', or merely blurting out whatever suits the purpose.
>
>So for some reason, Mr. Moran labels all (most?) evidence which proves 
>him to be incorrect a "deus ex machina."  Why?  What evidence do you have 
>that the evidence that people post to disprove your claims is 
>fraudulent?  Previously, you claimed (incorrectly) that historians of the 
>Holocaust _couldn't_ produce documents to prove how the Holocaust 
>happened.  Lately, whenever you've seen such documents, you've replied by 
>claiming they are nothing but "deus ex machina" inventions.  Could you 
>present some evidence to prove that they aren't accurate?  
>
>I'm particularly intrigued by your complaint about "a document for every 
>occasion."  To most rational people, that would imply that historians 
>have done a pretty good job of researching and documenting their claims.  
>To you, it apparently implies massive fraud (and yet, if something 
>_wasn't_ photographed, like a gassing in progress, you have also said 
>that *that* disproves the existence of homicidal gas chambers).  Your 
>complaints seem logically inconsistent, to say the least.
>
>> 	Pondering the idea of deus ex machina leads to pondering another
>> related principle:
>>  
>>                  Argumentum ad ignorantum:
>>      "An argument purporting to demonstrate a point or to persuade
>> people, which avails itself of facts and reasons the falsity or
>> inadequacy of which is not readily discerned;(or available for
>> validation), a misleading argument used in reliance on peoples
>> ignorance", (or inability to access any referrences cited as showing
>> proof).
>
>And yet, when people post "references cited as showing proof," you 
>typically reply, "Are we supposed to believe that just because this is 
>cited?" You ask for citations, and when people provide citations, you ask 
>why those citations should be trusted--and yet you offer no 
>counter-evidence to suggest that those citations are untrustworthy.  Very 
>odd.  Please demonstrate some cases where such deceptions have been used 
>in alt.revisionism.
>> 
>> 	One would think that if a person or a side had good argument for/or
>> against something they would rely on introducing information or logic
>> to show their views. 
>
>But when people do exactly that, you call it a "deus ex machina"! 
>
>
>> Barring this we have to recognize that if anyone
>> resorts to blanket insults or name calling it is a sign of break down.
>> 
>> 
>>                    - Argumentum ad hominem: -
>>                   
>>          "An irrelvant or malicious appeal to personal circumstances;
>> it consists in diverting an argument from sound facts and reasons to
>> the personality of the opponent."
>> 	         Calling the opponent names. 
>> 	         Making snide little remarks.
>
>Oh, yes... like accusing people of holding views which are the exact 
>opposite of what they have said?  Or calling people "ethnocentrically 
>insane"?  Or referring to a researcher (Deborah Lipstadt) by a diminutive 
>version of her first name that she does not herself use ("Debby," as you 
>usually call her)?  Or, when someone correctly points out that 
>the Constitution doesn't provide for national referenda, saying that that 
>person has a "Jewish" understanding of the law? 
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>

	It is obvious that there are many documents and eye witness
accounts. The problem is that they are for the most part inaccesible
to the lay person or the reader as to their validity. Take Pressac. In
his treament in "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" almost all of
the bibliography referrences are to records in the Soviet Union or the
Auschwitz museum archives. Take Mueller for instance. Was his
testimony subjected to a full inquiry for details? Often as I
stipulated above, just one word or phrase is expanded into meaning
something that facilitates the story.
	I would say if the full evidence of the Holocaust was
subjected to say a 'World Symposium on the Holocaust' that many of
these documents would be shown to be either forgeries, exaggerations
irrelevant or whatever.
	Take Pressac's bibliography for instance, the plans he
presents may show buildings or whatever but offer nothing to prove a
mass extermination took place.
	Take those little bottles said to have been found with
accounts of the process. How do we know whether or not they were
planted? Even by what is related about them is vague, they were
written in code, so obliterated that most of the stuff is inledgable
and other alibis to keep from it all looking contrived.
	In the end there is "deus ex machina" and there is "Argumentum
ad ignorantum". Whether or not the Holocaust utiltizes the concepts,
we will just have to continue to see. 
	 




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 16:39:09 PST 1996
Article: 22965 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The more plans I see the more rediculous the Moran.
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 14:57:42 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4f02rt$f5j@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article , t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH
>> >MURRAY) wrote:
>> 
>> >> In article <4eqqke$cd8@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>> >(Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>> >> 
>> >> >>>For how long, Mr. Moran, was Krema I in use?
>> >> >>>How many people are said to have been gassed there?
>> >> 
>> >> >>As far as I have seen, anywhere from 3, 5, 10 thousand, and more. You
>> >> >>know, the usual multiple selection.
>> >> 
>> >> Indeedy.
>> 
>> >Indeedy indeed. I've read that the estimates are in the _tens_ of
>thouasands. 

	Yes, unto one hundred thousand. I think McVay was trying to
down play the numbers for the sake of convenience.

>> >"3, 5, 10 thousand!" Pah. The first gassing at Krema I killed almost 1,500
>> >people alone. (Where _does_ Moran, come up with these moronic statements?)
>> 
>> I have also seen figures of 600 and 800 forthe first gassing, which I
>> think was said to have been Soviet POWs.
>
>The first use of Zyclon-B at Aushwitz took place in _Block 11_ from
>September 3-5, 1941, in which 600 Soviet POWs and 250 other prisoners were
>gassed to death.[1]
>
>> >Even when he tries to discredit the Holocaust with innuendo, Moran,
>> >_still_ lacks the brains to get his figures correct.

	I don't assert figures here, I comment on them. Right here we
have 1500 or 850 people said to have been gassed in the first. Its not
my brain thats out here giving the numbers, its you're's. 

>> Anyway, thanks for the increased numbers. This tends to make the issue
>> at hand even more valid. The more people said to have been gassed at
>> Krema I would mean all the more ventilated poisonous gases being
>> spewed out all over the closely proximate Gestapo headquarters, the SS
>> Hospital, the Commodants office and the Administration Building.
>
>You really _are_ stupid, aren't you Moran? It seems you cannot even grasp
>the most basic of facts like "hot air rises" and the "smokestack was 30
>ft. tall." Not to mention the more subtle issue that mixing HCN
>contaminated air from Krema I's gas-chamber with a large volume of (hot
>and rising) air would dilute it to non-lethal (and eventually non-harmful)
>levels in the atmosphere. Do you ever wonder _why_ smokestacks are tall,
>Moran? (Hint: It's called a boundry layer.)

	Ho'ss: "When the powder was thrown in, there were cries of
'"gas!"' then a great bellowing, and the trapped prisoners hurled
themselves against both doors. But the doors held. They were opened
several hours later, so that the place might be aired".

>After all this, you crow that the gassing and cremating over thousands of
>people never took place because the HCN levels would be lethal in the
>immediate area? Aside from your ignorance of gas laws and atmospherics
>there is the simple fact that the Nazis themselves documented that they
>_did_ gas and cremate thousands in Krema I without noting that SS or
>Gestapo personnel in the surrounding buildings were dropping like flies
>from HCN poisoning. 
>
>Now why would that be, Granite Boy? Could it be because the only people
>dying from HCN poisoning were those _inside_ the gas-chambers? Duh. 
>
	Show me where I said the gas "would be lethal in the
inmmediate area". I imply that toxic compounds were released into the
area, which would be recognized by the perpetrators. Here their using
it as a poison to kill people and then they release it in the
vicinity?

	Its amusing the way you and your peers respond to the post but
then along the way or at the end unleash all this bitterness. Whats
up? Do I make you strain your selves too much, and you get sore. If
its so idiotic, why respond? If its so idiotic it should be self
evident and you should feel comfortable with it. The more insults I
get the better. He who shows the bitterness is a loser.  

>
>Mark
>
>
>1. Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945/ Danuta Czech. -1st American. Ed.; pp.85,86.
>   Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.157
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb  7 21:47:32 PST 1996
Article: 22972 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yitzhak Shamir on Jewish Supremacy
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 20:25:06 GMT
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laweissman@aol.com (LAWeissman) wrote:

>You cannot characterize an entire group of people by one person's
>insensitive or racist comments.  Of course there are Jews who are racist. 
>Just as in any group you will find reprehensible people.  But I would
>never assume all white people to be stupid because Moran happens to be
>white.  The same logic applies to all groups of people.
>Larry


	Weissman: Your honor, I allege this guy Moarn is stupid.

	His Honor: Do you have any proof?

	Weissman: Yes your Honor, heres some of the stuff he has
posted on alt.revisionism.

	His Honor: Well, would you like to point it out in detail.

	Weissman: I DON'T HAVE TO POINT OUT ANYTHING YOUR HONOR, ITS
ALL RIGHT HERE.

	His Honor: Well I'd have to have you detail it out and then
prove its stupid. If you can't do that then wer have nothing to go by.

	Weissman: WHAT? 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb  8 00:12:45 PST 1996
Article: 22972 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yitzhak Shamir on Jewish Supremacy
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 20:25:06 GMT
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laweissman@aol.com (LAWeissman) wrote:

>You cannot characterize an entire group of people by one person's
>insensitive or racist comments.  Of course there are Jews who are racist. 
>Just as in any group you will find reprehensible people.  But I would
>never assume all white people to be stupid because Moran happens to be
>white.  The same logic applies to all groups of people.
>Larry


	Weissman: Your honor, I allege this guy Moarn is stupid.

	His Honor: Do you have any proof?

	Weissman: Yes your Honor, heres some of the stuff he has
posted on alt.revisionism.

	His Honor: Well, would you like to point it out in detail.

	Weissman: I DON'T HAVE TO POINT OUT ANYTHING YOUR HONOR, ITS
ALL RIGHT HERE.

	His Honor: Well I'd have to have you detail it out and then
prove its stupid. If you can't do that then wer have nothing to go by.

	Weissman: WHAT? 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb  8 15:04:41 PST 1996
Article: 23033 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 14:06:33 GMT
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	Now how do you think your World Almanac gets it's information?
>
>In this particular case, the list of the top grossing movies of 1994
>is referenced to an article in Variety -- a publication one of whose
>purposes is to keep up with information like that.  You can look up
>the list that I referred to (if I recall correctly, it's on page 249
>of the almanac) and go look up the Variety article yourself.
>
>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
                                              Can I call collect?
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"You don't even have a clue as to which clue you're missing." -- Miss Manners



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb  8 15:04:42 PST 1996
Article: 23036 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 15:57:12 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <311a1b8b.6658008@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4etrh5$998@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
>(Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>> In article <4esktl$bcs@nimitz.fibr.net>,   wrote:
>> 
>>>Perhaps Mr. Green would be so kind as to describe what silica gel in a large
>>>mesh size looks like. Mr. Giwer insists that it does not appear crystalline.
>>>I know that it is _not_ a crystal but could a person who was not an expert
>>>mistake silica gel for a crystal?
>> 
>>Well, I've only seen silica gel in the same places that you have.  Certainly, 
>>someone could mistake it as a crystal.
>
>In _Auschwitz: a history in photographs_, on page 153, there is a close-up
>photo (165) of a tipped container with Zyclon-B spilling out. From the
>photo, I must say, when I look at the Zyclon-B pellets, I am reminded of
>rock salt. Isn't rock salt (sodium cloride) crystalline in nature? Not
>hard, IMHO, to understand why one would call Zyclon-B pellets
>"crystals."   

	The material "silica gel" would be something like vermiculite.
The vehicle to carry something like HCN "gas" must be pourous. Or it
could be incorporated into a vehicle which would evaporate and the
intended substance taken along with it, like mothballs. 

>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb  8 15:04:43 PST 1996
Article: 23038 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 15:24:38 GMT
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <3118be55.726438@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	They sweat, the pasting HCN sticks to their bodies, gets into
>>solution, the sondercommando pick them up, one after another unto
>>thousands, he sweats, the pasted HCN on the bodies solutes into the
>>sondercommando's sweat, saturates his clothes, he goes on. What kind
>>of calculations do you want? 
>
>Based upon the Henry's law constant of HCN, the pKa of HCN, the pH of
>sweat in the presence of carbon dioxide, and an estimated partial
>pressure of HCN I'm sure that Mr. Moran could provide us with an answer
>to how much HCN could "paste" into into the sweat of the victims.

	Your the one who seems to have all the heavy duty knowledge.
Why don't you do a treatment on it. Think of some more variables while
your at it. Go ahead, its your thing. I'll go along with the
"pasting", period. You give us the details.

	And to think that only 15% of the product applied was availed
upon to reach the alleged purpose, leaving 85% left over to paste to
the victims and create complications for the ventialtion and
evacuation. 

	Lets see, Holocaust faction says 4 to 6 kilos of Zyklone B
were used to kill up to 1000 to 1500 people. Lets make it 5 kilos for
1200 people. Only 15% of the HCN content is used which comes out to
750 grams. 750 grams is the total wieght of the Zyklone B product
including the suspending vehicle material, wood fibre, silica gel or
whatever. We might suspect that the actual wieght of the HCN itself is
much lower, it being a "gas", which could be as low as 100 grams or
lower even. So the alloted HCN per person would be about a tenth of a
gram. We can assume that much of the HCN was still susp[ended in the
air at the time of death (ten minutes) which would reduce the the
amount even more. This is using the accomodations afforded the
holocaust side.
	Going by the unaccomodated figures, 40% released in the first
1/2 hour instead of 50%, and five minutes instead of ten minutes, we
would have a figure more like 50 grams for the total HCN released, of
which some would still be suspended in the air at the end of the five
minutes. We can also some of it would have "pasted" here and there,
and might be able to say only 10 grams went into killing the 1200.


	Now considering your "Henry's law constant of HCN", "the pKa
of the HCN", "the pH of the peoples sweat in the presence of carbon
dioxide" and "the estimated partial preassure of HCN" we might come
out with a figure of only 1% (1/2 gram) of the 50 grams went into
killing the 1200.   
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>-- 
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Richard J. Green
>Department of Chemistry
>Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>http://chem.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb  9 09:38:59 PST 1996
Article: 23160 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 16:49:34 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:



	Judging by the responses above, it seems we have a new
variable in the Holocaust facts. Sometimes Zyklone B (HCN) is terribly
lethal and sometimes its not.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb  9 09:38:59 PST 1996
Article: 23161 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom "Revisionist Scientist" Moran (Re: "..they lived right inside )
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 16:58:48 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
># Daniel Keren writes:
>
>## Moran also claimed that it would have been impossible to use
>## HCN gas in the Krema I gas chamber, because it would endanger
>## the SS living nearby, bla-bla.
>
># "Bla-bla"? 
>
>Yes, bla-bla, you sad clown. See below for further comment.
>
>## He forgot however, that even "revisionists" admit there are
>## cyanide traces on the walls of this gas chamber, proving
>## beyond doubt Zyklon-B was indeed used in it.
> 
># You say that even revisionists admit to traces? But do they
># agree with the idea it was a gas chamber? Do they theorize on any
># traces ever coming from fumigation of the premises? 
>
>Sigh. You're a lost case indeed.
>
>Listen, and try to understand. You said it would have been
>impossible to use HCN gas in that room. It was obviously used
>there, as there are still traces on the walls. It does not
>matter if you claim it was only used for fumigation; this
>means that it was still used there, and if that room was
>safe enough to used HCN in it for fumigation, it was, obviously,
>safe enough to use HCN in it for homicidal gassing, as one
>can kill people with a *smaller* concentration than the one
>used for delousing.
>
>Do you finally understand?
>
	First of all professor, could you point out where I ever said
it would be "impossible" to use HCN anywhere? There is nothing to say
that Zyklone B has to be used in a special chamber. I would think it
was used in almost all buildings, including the barracks of the
prisoners and the staff. I would suggest that maybe there are traces
of it all over the place. 
	Professor, when your addressing your class, and someone
doesn't quite get what your getting at, do you say "Bla,bla you sad
clown"? You see professor, when you resort to this I know you are on
the ropes. "Do you finally understand"?
>
>-Danny keren.
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb  9 12:01:36 PST 1996
Article: 23163 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.germany,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: NYT Article on Nazi SS reunion, and implications for the censors
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:42:20 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:23163 alt.politics.white-power:18312 alt.discrimination:42698 alt.conspiracy:30588 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:20 alt.censorship:66928

rich@c2.org wrote:

	On a recent trip to northern California and Nevada I stayed a
a motel resort where some men were staying that had just returned from
a reunion of WWII units. As it turned out there were also a number of
German veterans there, and the Americans were elated to have them
there, and went on about having no annymosity and how they were
honored to have had had the reunion together.
	Perhaps I could be doing a disservice to the reunification
process by reporting this. Certain groups could start to petition that
this consitutes "anti-Semitism" and could seek to bar such reunions.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 08:06:39 PST 1996
Article: 23190 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New Nizkor Feature: Fallacies
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:02:55 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <311b7d8e.2460969@news.pacificnet.net>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <823653705snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, 
>"A Baron" wrote:
>
>>How about this one: Leuchter was paid by Zundel; Zundel is a Nazi; therefore
>>Leuchter's report doesn't count.
>
>How about this one: Leuchter's report is full of holes, as
>demonstrated by the Cracow Institute and anyone else who looks
>into it beyond the first page; therefore Leuchter's report
>doesn't count.
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/
>
>What's the penalty for armed robbery in the UK, Mr. Baron?
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                    Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca 
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/


	I thought this article was kind of amusing "New Nizkor
Feature: Fallacies". Theres nothing new about Nizkor fallacies.
Anyway, Leuchter says he found traces in the alleged gas chamber as
well as other places. Out here we have him being denied in general,
excluding his findings at a "gas chamber".


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 08:06:40 PST 1996
Article: 23191 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news1.vancouver.istar.net!news.vancouver.istar.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!caen!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:08:45 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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References: <3118be7c.765654@news.pacificnet.net> <4fc6kc$b3o@news.enter.net> <311a03ae.549524@news.pacificnet.net> <4fdt4p$ecn@access5.digex.net>
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <311a03ae.549524@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>	Maybe people don't like an ignorant illiterate like you lying about
>>>them.  Some people are sensitive about such things. 
>
>>	If theres any lies, show them to be lies. 
>
>    That's exactly what we're asking you about the trees, Tommy.  You 
>said it was a lie.  Show it.
>
	Attention: Anyone wanting to know whether or not the
announcement that Jews planted 200,000,000 trees in Israel or not just
go to the library and look up photographic books on Israel. Also check
out any georaghy book to see whether or not Israel is capable of being
planted with 200,000,000 trees.
    
>    Not that we're expecting to see it any sooner than the menorah 
>citations, of course.  Still "in the process of being retrieved?"
>
>    Meanwhile, your lies about Keith Morrison and Schindler's List and
>many other things have been documented here.  You just keep asking 
>"WHERE?"  Obviously you believe that ostriches have a point - just 
>refuse to look at something and it doesn't exist.
   SCHINDLER'S LIST WAS A FLOP.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:52 PST 1996
Article: 23233 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Exaggerated claims exposed
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 14:59:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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	tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	"Jewish Group Rejects Swiss Bank Survey"
              (N.Y. Times, Feb. 9, 1996)

	"Zurich, Feb.8 (Reuters) -- The World Jewish Congress
described as unacceptable a survey that concluded that Swiss banks
held only $32 million deposited by foreign clients who may have died
in the Holocaust.
	The Swiss Bankers Association said on Wednesday that the
results of the survey should serve to refute claims that the assets of
victims of the Nazis amounted to hundreds of millions of dollars.
	But the World Jewish Congress said in a statement issued in
Brussels that the Swiss associations findings were unacceptable. In
New York, a spokesman for the congress, Elan Steinberg, said that
Jewish groups were preparing legal action in the Unitied States
against Swiss banks and had asked for Senate hearings on Swiss banking
practices.
	He added that the World Jewish Congress would announce plans
in Jeruselem on Friday for the establishment of a clearing house for
claims and start its own independant investigation."


	'WHERES THE MONEY.' 'WE WANT THE MONEY.'
	Going to get the United States Congress into supporting this?

	Going to establish a "clearing house" for "claims"? This
should be something. Probably like seeking out the names of Holocaust
victims. We can expect thousands of Jews writing in fictions in an
attempt to shake down the Swiss government.
	Push, push, push. 

 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:52 PST 1996
Article: 23240 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311cd44b.9030109@news.pacificnet.net>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>Mr. Giwer,
>
>Very good strategy: when you have nothing intelligent to say resort to
>ad hominem attacks.  
>
	Now heres a righteous hypocrisy. I would invite anyone to
click through "Green" in the threads for the proof.

>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>
>-- 
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Richard J. Green
>Department of Chemistry
>Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>http://chem.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:53 PST 1996
Article: 23241 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <311cd450.9034393@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4cblcb$p1g@zippy.cais.net> <3118bd51.466642@news.pacificnet.net> <4fb92t$2is@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <311a1865.5852039@news.pacificnet.net> <4fe4ka$fr3@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <311a1865.5852039@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	I take it that all the above is contingent on only 15% of the
>>HCN applied was availed upon to kill the thousand at a time?
>
>As long as they used enough to maintain the equilibrium vapor pressure
>of HCN the argument holds.  Let's get back to the point, however, which
>was that there is a nonlinear relationship of concentration and
>distance.  Is erfc a linear function or not?  Are you capable of
>following a train of thought or not?
>
	Your point is a "nonlinear relationship of concentration and
distance", the initiating point here is 85% or more of the product was
applied than was necessary. Is "Are you capable of following a train
of thought or not?", a hominem attack?

>>	Anyway, thanks for the added flim flam in response to the
>>original post.
>
>If you can do a better derivation, I'm all ears.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>-- 
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Richard J. Green
>Department of Chemistry
>Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>http://chem.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:54 PST 1996
Article: 23242 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <311cd454.9038458@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <311a1865.5852039@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[Mr. Green's well considered explination reagrding diffusion snipped] 
>
>[Moranic (TM) drivel snipped]
>
>> Anyway, thanks for the added flim flam in response to the original post.
>
>It is obvious, Granite Boy, that you haven't the slightest clue what Mr.
>Green was talking about. And yet, rather than admit you gross ignorance on
>the subject, you disparge Mr. Green's efforts to educate you as
>"flim-flam!" Such an ungrateful cretin you are, Granite Boy! Talk about
>casting pearls before swine....
>
>Keep yakking away, Granite Boy. Dig your hole deeper. Make a complete and
>utter ass of yourself.  We can all use a good laugh at your expense.
>Again.
>
	You forgot to address any particulars.


>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:55 PST 1996
Article: 23243 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:
>
> [to Tom Moran]
>
>>Oh no, don't try to change the subject now.  You say "slower" is a unit of 
>>time, prove it.  Actually, just tell me this: how many seconds are in a 
>>slower?
>
>Gosh, Keith, do you think that's a fair question?  You know that slowers
>are hours and hours long.  And you already know that Mr. Moran is, well,
>arithmetically challenged.  Do you really think he'll be able to multiple
>all those sixty times sixties to translate a slower into seconds?
>
>
	Laura, would you like to take a shot at correcting any
arithmetic errors? If you have a problem you should be able to show
where and how. Go for it. Barring this, your failure to return with
the correction will be your own indictment.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:55 PST 1996
Article: 23244 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos Deny the Myth
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311cd45d.9047465@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>
>>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>>>: 	Among the many photos that exist that document various aspects of the
>>>: camp are those taken at the time of liberation, where we can see a
>>>: barracks full of elderly women, groups standing at a fence, with
>>>: elderly and children. 
>
>>>Since Himmler ordered the gassing facilities dismantled several months
>>>before Auschwitz was liberated, that's not terribly surprising.
>
>>	Sure. I know you have a document that shows this. Perhaps a word or
>>two that is interpreted to the convenience. "Dismantled".
>
>"Dismantled" might not be the best word to use here, though the
>process of removing the crematoria equipment seems to have begun at
>the same time that the gassing stopped in November 1944.
>
>> Is this the
>>same as blowing them up. What about those accounts that say they were
>>blown up just as the Soviets were advancing on the camp in Jan. 45?
>
>When the Soviets liberated the camp in 1945, they found that Kremas
>II, III, IV, and V had been dynamited. Ask yourself why the SS
>dynamited these four buildings in particular, and no others, even
>though the crematory furnaces and ventilation equipment had been
>removed.

	Are these the same Soviets that Holocaust perpetuators claim
are responsible for the exaggeration on the Auschwitz numbers? How do
you know the Soviets didn't blow up somethings, if in fact anything
was blown up, to destroy any evidence that would throw doubts on what
they claimed?
>
>>Then again we have those accounts that say they were blown up by
>>Allied bombing.
>
>Really? I've never heard of this before. Can you point me to a
>specific account that claims the Allies destroyed the Kremas? I am
>very keen to know more about this.

	Can I point to it. No. I recall it coming up, deus ex machina
like.
>
>> Did the Soviets submit any reconstructions of these
>>alleged facilities for the prosecution at Nuremburg?
>
>No.
>
>> Do you know of
>>any photographic survey that has ever been done on the ruins?
>
>I don't know of a specific photographic survey, but I have seen
>pictures of he ruins. Why do you ask?
>
	Why do I ask? I want to know if the defendants at Nuremberg
got a fair trial or not. You know, "reconstruction of the scene of the
crime".

>> Why does
>>a map supplied by the Panstwowe Muzeum w Oswiecimiu state that those
>>buildings shown in "...solid block indicate buildings in original
>>state" include the crematorii? 
>
>Because at one time they believed the reconstruction to be accurate.
>Now that they are aware that the reconstruction is inaccurate, I think
>they should either a) find the money to make it accurate, or b)
>explain the inaccuracies to visitors. According the article in
>L'Express (Touy y est faux) which is often commented upon in
>alt.revisionism, the various bodies responsible for administering the
>Museum cannot seem to come to an agreement about what to do.

	So something exists after all. 
>
>One of their problems is how to use the limited funds that they do
>have. Much of the camp is rotting away, and it is desperate need of
>basic preservation work. They just don't have the money to do
>everything that needs doing.
>
	Who would need money to reconstruct whatever is there to
paper. Certainly there would be enough volunteers from either side.
YUou and I can go there together. You reconstruct it from your belief
and I'll reconstruct it by whats there - period. 

>Now you seem to believe something along the lines that Jews are the
>all-powerful, evil rulers of the world. What do you suppose it means
>when Auschwitz--which has become the central symbol of the Holocaust
>for almost everyone-- what do you suppose it means that the Museum
>which is supposed to preserve it cannot raise the money even to do the
>most basic preservation work?

	First of all I don't think the Jews are all powerful. I think
the Jewish movement in general as all conspiring. Why don't the Jews
use their all powerfulness to incite preservation work? Because it
would work against their claims. If they thought it would help they
would be crawling over the place trying to get this government or that
agency to pay for the work.
>
>>If you feel inclined to say that the
>>buildings were too ruined to permit a reconstruction why does a
>>visitors plaque at Birkenau have one on a information board?
>
>Krema I was not dynamited. The SS had converted it to use as a bomb
>shelter for the SS hospital immediately adjacent. The Museum attempted
>to reconstruct Krema I only. The remaining Kremas

	Did I specify Krema I or did you just single it out for easy
response? The question specified "a visitors plaque at Birkenau".
>
>> Why are
>>some of the most important parts of the camp off limits to visitors?
>
>I don't know. If I was to hazard a guess, I would say that it is a
>very large site broken into three parts separated from each other by
>anywhere from one to five miles; most of it is in a poor state of
>repair; and, it is simply too expensive to protect such a large site
>from vandals and souvenir hunters.
>
	Deus ex machina. The camp is not all that big. Especially if
we eliminate the preipherals that would add up to "three parts". A
route could very well be made clear and safe just to the main gists of
the story.


>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:56 PST 1996
Article: 23245 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos Deny the Myth
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:45 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311cd460.9050816@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4eo8am$6d9@zippy.cais.net> <4eodm3$eds@curly.cc.emory.edu> <4eqjjn$e07@zippy.cais.net> <4euaj6$1bnm@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  <4f58ej$158@zippy.cais.net> 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4f58ej$158@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4euaj6$1bnm@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
>> >(John Morris) wrote:
>> 
>> >> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> >Then again we have those accounts that say they were blown up by
>> >> >Allied bombing.
>> >> 
>> >> Really? I've never heard of this before. Can you point me to a
>> >> specific account that claims the Allies destroyed the Kremas? I am
>> >> very keen to know more about this.
>> 
>> >As am I. I would _very_ much like to see Moran pull such a rabbit out of
>> >his denier hat. Especially considering the U.S. War Department
>> >specifically refused (under false pretext) several times to bomb the
>> >extermination facilities at Auschwitz.
>> 
>> >Well, Moran, what _exactly_ were "those accounts that say they [the
>> >Kremas] were blown up by Allied bombing?" I avidily await your usual
>> >twisting and squirming to avoid giving a verifiable answer.
>> 
>> I recall it from out here. 
>
>Where is "out here," Moran? The trailer park where you A.S.S.H.O.L.E.s get
>together to plot taking over the world? 
>
>>I'll see if I can find it with a search.
>
>You do that, Moran. Don't take forever though, 'cause I want to rip you a
>new asshole, before Christams, on this topic. 
>
	You think you have found a loop topic to focus on? Does this
menat you accept the other posts, or do you consider this one easier
to contend with, the others being too difficult?

>> Now that you have responded to this aspect, how about the others.
>
>What other aspects? Your stupidity about asserting to "pasting," et al?
>What exactly? How about _you_ pony up on your assertions about how the
>Allies bombed Auschwitz first? Seeing as how _you_ have this problem with
>following up on what you claim and all....
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:57 PST 1996
Article: 23246 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:49 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <311cd464.9054880@news.pacificnet.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <311a0d26.2973419@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said:
>
>>
>>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>>Based upon the Henry's law constant of HCN, the pKa of HCN, the pH of
>>>sweat in the presence of carbon dioxide, and an estimated partial
>>>pressure of HCN I'm sure that Mr. Moran could provide us with an answer
>>>to how much HCN could "paste" into into the sweat of the victims.
>
>>	Your the one who seems to have all the heavy duty knowledge. Why don't
>>you do a treatment on it. Think of some more variables while your at it.
>>Go ahead, its your thing. I'll go along with the "pasting", period. You
>>give us the details.
>
>Why should Mr. Green do *your* work?  You are the one making the
>allegations.  Why don't you back them up?  (We know why, don't we folks?)
>
	"We"? This thread is self evident, regardless of what Mc Fee
wants to believe.
>

>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                                                  



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:58 PST 1996
Article: 23247 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311cd468.9058450@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4fbukn$ph5@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>    I'm almost sure that I saw \offline' an hour ago a
>>    message of you where you used the same arguments that you used
>>    with me a couple of weeks ago. It goes like that:
>>    any claim that the gasing of human wasn't safe is ridicoulous because the
>>    revisionist admit themself that cyhanide compounds were found
>>    on the walls of the 'gas chambers', here the Krema 1.
>>    Last time you didn't reply to my post about it, and I figure
>>    that you didn't feel that it was necessary, but since this 
>>    argument seems to be there again...
>
>In other words, since your pet theory of HCN "pasting" to the gassed
>corpses fell flat on its face, you are going to give it another go? Why on
>earth for? 
>It was silly then and it i silly now. Have you been talking to Mr.
>Kreiberg lately? He had this bizzare theory that corpses exploded when
>cremated....
>
>> 
>>    If, for the Krema 1, someone say that it was illogical 
>>    to evacuate the gas through the roof because there was a SS
>>    hospital just beside, than I consider that as a serious
>>    argument. 
>
>Why? It would only be "illogical" (and a serious argument) if carrying out
>the homicidal gassings turned out, in fact, to pose a real danger to those
>in the buildings sourounding Krema I. I've yet to read that this was true.
>Have you, or is this simply an unwarranted assumption on your part? 
>
>Concerning the evacuation of the gas chamber in Krema I "through the
>roof," what evidence do you have that this was, in fact, the case? You
>_do_ realize, Mr. Beaulieu, that when Krema I was modified to enable
>homicdal gassing to take place in the morgue, the ventilation system was
>also changed so that the air drawn from the morgue would be evacuated
>through the smokestack? A   smokestack which was connected by underground
>flues, and was adjacent to Krema I? This meant that the poisonous gas
>(HCN) used in the gas-chamber (the morgue) would be mixed with the hot
>exhaust gases from the furnaces and released into the atmosphere from the
>top of the (10m) smomestack. [1] [2]

	Do you have a diagramatic reconstruction of this along with
any photographic survey to validfy the truth of any diagram
reconstruction?

>>    If now we have to figure a single disenfection,
>>    than it was possible and require to evacuate the upper
>>    floors of this hospital and to move peoples on the first
>>    floor when the evacuation of the gas began. 
>
>Given the release height of the hot gases (10m), that hot air rises, that
>the poisonous gas was diluted by being mixed the hot exhaust gases from
>the furnace during the evacuation process and by turbulent diffusion in
>the atmosphere after release; how then do you assert that the HCN level in
>the surrounding area posed such a problem as to require the evacuation of
>floors in the surrounding SS hosptial? What evidence and/or calculations
>do you offer to support this? 
>
>Looks like nary of shred of evidence, Mr. Beaulieu. 
>
>Then, of course, there is the simple fact that the SS _did_ carry out many
>such gassings which killed many thousands of people, as evidenced by the
>residual level of HCN found in the gas-chamber of Krema I and the
>testimonies and other documentary evidence. Evidence that supports that
>gassings took place- all without, apparently, causing any such problem as
>you conject. 
>
>>    The same thing is true for any other building, crema 2,3,4,5. 
>
>Why? What is "true?" You have yet to sustain your arguments with any
>facts! Merely offering conjecture in place of facts is hardly a convincing
>argument!

	Thank god for "testimonies" and "documents" or the Holocaust
would be flapping in the breeze more than it is already.
>
>>    This thing is perfectly realistic for a single desinfection or 2 
>>    during the war, but not every day for each homicidal gasing. 
>
>Again, you have offered no compelling reason to consider your offered
>scenario as anything more than a fable, a strawman argument constructed to
>"prove" that homicidal gassings at Krema I were "illogical" and, by
>extension, the homicidal gassings carried out at Kremas II-V at Auschwitz
>II-Birkenau as well!
>
>>    In that case, the germans would have certanly build a gas chamber 
>>    elsewhere.
>
>Why? Because _you_ say the homicdal gassings were "illogical?" (It is only
>illogical in the sense that genocide is irrational- which doesn't mean
>that genocide never happens!) That they would have required the SS to move
>people in the hospital every time a gassing took place?  Given that you
>offer no factual  evidence to support such assumptions, why then should
>this assertion of yours be taken seriously?
>
>The plain fact is that the Nazis _didn't_ build the Kremas elsewhere and
>_did_ gas many hundreds of thousands of people in them. This, I think,
>would show that your conjecture is baseless and patently absurd.   
>
>>    On the other hand, it is hard to explain why one of Leuchter 
>> \  samples taken in the washroom of krema 1 contain almost
>>    the same level of ferro-cyhanide compounds than what was
>>    found in the 'gas chamber' of krema 1.
>
>Why? Couldn't there be many reasons? Not the least of which being that
>Leuchter screwed up when he surreptitiously (and illegally?) took these
>samples? Leuchter's "analysis" of the samples, and the implications he
>drew from them, show that he is a _very_ sloppy "researcher." Not to
>mention he is a blatant and self-admitted fraud who misrepresented himself
>as an "expert" on gas-chambers when, in fact, he was anything but. And you
>consider this man's "work" credible? (Such a trusting soul you are when it
>suits your purposes!) 
>
>>    Now, the post that I'm replying to:
>> >
>> > tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> >  
>> > # Since the HCN is said to have pasting properties, we
>> > # assume some of it is pasted to the bodies of the victims.
>> >  
>> > "we assume" is not good enough.
>> >  
>> > I am really not aware of gases "pasting" to bodies. This
>> > seems like utter rubbish. Perhaps you can quantify it, and
>> > tell us just how much gas is "pasted" to a human body, how
>> > much would be rinsed off if the body is hosed down, etc.
>> > 
>> 
>>   For the bodies which are 'hosed down', perhaps you could explain
>>   that: if memory deserve, a single drain in the center of 
>>   krema 2, small, and 500 bodies over a 200 meters surface.
>>   How many times this drain was plugged up by a leg, a chest,
>>   how could it be possible to clear up this one in advance
>>   before to hose down if it was unaccesible, how could the germans
>>   tolerate the innundation of the rooms beside with water 
>>   full of fetal matter, urine if the drain was obstruct,
>>   (BTW, F. Muller do not talk about the clearing of the drain
>>    in advance in his testimony).
>
	If there was a drain at Krema II there should still be a
record of it. Especially since it was built underground, which would
make it more difficult to drain off - to where?

>This presupposes, of course, that such "pasting" of HCN to the corpses did
>in fact happen. That has not been remotely established yet. I've yet to
>see you, or anyone else, post a definitive argument, with supporting
>research, that confirms such "pasting" properties of HCN would pose a
>hazard, not to mention taking place to any significant degree even! 

	By "pasting" we could consider this 'adhereing', 'sticking' or
whatever. The HCN was impregnated into the Zyklone B vehicle in liguid
form that had evaporative qualities. We can asume that the HCN rode
along with the substance of evaporative substance. As long as it had
electrical qualities (non-inertness) it would tend to stick to
something. I would also be prone to being incorporated into any sweat.
Take just about anything and spray it at a liquid and see if it
doesn't mix.
>
>So far the only "evidence' you've posted (that I've read anyways) in this
>regard was your enigmatic fragment (Message-ID: <4f1jh1$blt@Vir.com>) that
>said:
>
>>>  "Ventilability: hard and long since this gas paste strongly to surfaces"
>>>  NI-9098
>
>When asked if  there is "anything relevant that comes before and after
>this sentence" you replied "No, if memory deserve, I've not keep a copy of
>all of it but from the page that I was able to find, no."  
>
>Thin gruel, indeed, Mr. Beaulieu, to base your claims that HCN "pasted" to
>corspes in high enough concentrations to be hazardous (or lethal) to the
>touch!
>
	You ask if he had a prior and ensueing statement to this
"pasting" referrence as if it was relevant but you don't offer
anything than insinuation that there is something that would undo it.
Why is that?
 
>For a person who seems to spend so much effort in being "skeptical" about
>homicidal gassings taking place at Auschwitz, not to mention the Holocaust
>in general, I must say you sure don't seem to apply the same standards of
>"skepticism" to the bizzare theories _you_ concot! 
>
>Why is that? 
>
>Mark 
>
>
>1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.159
>
>2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; pp.193-195
>
>3. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.158
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:58 PST 1996
Article: 23248 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz, A COUNTER FAQ
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:22:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311cd46e.9064767@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
>
># you fist said that there was no scientific on the revisionnist
># side except the computer scientist Dr Butz, and then I brought
># Luftl and Dr. Rudolphe, 
>
>Luftl says that the exhaust of a 500 BHP engine won't hurt
>anyone, while experiments proved that animals exposed to the 
>exhaust of a tiny, 6 BHP diesel engine in a closed chamber, die.
>
>So far for this clown Luftl.
>
>As for "Dr. Rudolphe", I asked you already whether he has a
>Ph.D, and if so, from what institute and when was it awarded.
>You haven't answered.
>
># If someone in front claim that Leuchter's opinion on technical 
># issues about the gas chambers is stupid because Pressac proved 
># that he was less competent than himself, 
>
>No, it has been proved that Leuchter is a liar (he lied about
>his alleged work regarding gas chambers and about being an
>engineer), and a complete idiot - and this has nothing to do
>with Pressac; Leuchter wrote such an idiotic report that even
>"leading revisionist" David Cole had to admit it's a piece
>of worthless garbage. He wrote that Leuchter makes errors a
>3-year-old wouldn't have made, and that's one thing Cole is
>right about.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
	Danny Keren is a Ph.D. There are thousands of Ph.Ds in the
world. Tommy Edison had only a fourth grade education, yet Tommy will
be known a thousand years down the road whereas 99.999999% of the
Ph.Ds will be unknown.
	Danny Keren Ph.D, demonstrates his academic rating out here on
alt.rev. He makes snide little remarks, and dubs like a child.
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:41:59 PST 1996
Article: 23249 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:23:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <311cd473.9069545@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:
>
>>Dear Mazal  Over Board Exterminationist:
>>      We are sorry that it would take you "many a merry hour"  to
>>make a reconstruction of our initials.  We had hoped for (although
>>not expected) some small show of wit from you rather than your
>>usual  ad hominem stupidities.  
>>      Of course you totally miss the point of our comment.  You 
>>do not have to believe our description  of the so-called
>>"vents" in the ceiling of Leichenhalle 1  Cremas II and III.
>>The holes still exist and can be viewed.  What was there can
>>be sussed out from what is there now.
>>      Other writers to this thread have suggested two or three
>>different methods of introducing Zyclon into the gaschamber.
>>This suggests that the matter is not clear even among
>>educated Exterminationists.  
>
>At Birkenau, there were two methods of introducing the Zyklon. At
>Kremas II and III, it was poured through roof vents, in IV and V,
>through vents in the upper walls.
>
>As I have just asked in response to another post, are the roofs of
>both Kremas II and III still sufficiently intact to see whether there
>were heloes for the roof vents?
>
	'Oh look, some windows in the side of building. They must have
been for introducing poisonous gas.' 

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:42:00 PST 1996
Article: 23250 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:23:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <311cd476.9072676@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) writes:
>
># The question is the lack of any fittings to hold pillars 
># in place (either on the floor or in the roof) 
>
>I guess the fact that the  Kremas were dismantled and then 
>dynamited could have something to do with it, no?
>
>Pressac's book contains quite good photos of the Kremas
>in their current situation. The roofs are almost completely
>destroyed. The floor is probably damaged as well, due to
>the fact that the SS used a large quantity of explosives
>to blow up the whole structure.
>
># and the ad hoc nature of the "vents", ie.
># crudely chipped with the re-bar still in place.
>
>This is meaningless. "crudely chipped". What does this
>mean? You think they were worried about the appearance
>of the vents?
>
	It means that someone just chipped it through with a sledge
hammer or whatever they didn't have that the Germans would have had to
amke a clean cut so as to able to attach seals. In other words, a
frame up.

>BTW, aren't you the nut who posted that the Zyklon-B vents
>on the roofs of the Kremas II and III gas chambers in the
>aerial photo were caused by "static"?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:42:00 PST 1996
Article: 23251 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom "Revisionist Scientist" Moran (Re: "..they lived right inside )
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:23:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <311cd479.9076081@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4eqecm$csr@zippy.cais.net>  <3118bf01.898188@news.pacificnet.net>   <311b7bbc.1995480@news.pacificnet.net> <4fgpm7$8bp@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <311b7bbc.1995480@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	First of all professor, could you point out where I ever said
>	it would be "impossible" to use HCN anywhere? There is nothing
>	to say that Zyklone B has to be used in a special chamber.
>	I would think it was used in almost all buildings, including
>	the barracks of the prisoners and the staff. I would suggest
>	that maybe there are traces of it all over the place. 
>
>"I would think..."  "I would suggest that maybe..."  What Mr. Moran
>"thinks" and what Mr. Moran "suggests" and few quarters will buy him
>a cup of coffee at his local diner!  But none of his specious
>conjectures change any of the facts.
	Now this is heavy intellect.
>
>	Professor, when your addressing your class, and someone
>	doesn't quite get what your getting at, do you say "Bla,bla
>	you sad clown"?
>
>If the "someone" who "doesn't quite get it" addresses his professor
>in the contemptuous manner that is second nature to Mr. Moran, the
>professor would not say, "Bla, bla..."  He would merely have the
>student thrown out of his class.
	Would you like to point out the "contemptuous manner"?


>Mr. Moran forgets that if he wants respect from others he must show
>respect for others.

	Would you like to point out any disrespects, or are you just
stating unsupportables?

>By the way, what should a student do if his professor claims to have
>important facts about a certain court case, and continually promises
>to bring the evidence to class, yet never does?
>
>
>	You see professor, when you resort to this I know you are on
>	the ropes.
>
>If Dr. Keren had only said. "Bla, bla..." and nothing more, Mr. Moran
>would have a point.  But Mr. Keren went out of his way to explain the
>facts, to which Mr. Moran objects with his meaningless conjectures.
>
>The fact is that Mr. Moran has no position to defend, and that is why
>he jumps at the chance to discuss Mr. Keren's attitude instead of
>Mr. Keren's facts.

	Harry, why are you responding for the professor?
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Do not blame thy friend for shortcomings which thou hast thyself.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:42:01 PST 1996
Article: 23252 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom "Revisionist Scientist" Moran (Re: "..they lived right inside )
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:23:14 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <311cd47e.9080860@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4eqecm$csr@zippy.cais.net>  <3118bf01.898188@news.pacificnet.net>   <311b7bbc.1995480@news.pacificnet.net> <4fhafc$qjs@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	First of all professor, could you point out where I ever said
>>it would be "impossible" to use HCN anywhere?
>
>It is a strong implication of your remarks that Zyklon B is impossible
>to use anywhere. The lethal dose for human being for five minutes of
>exposure is 300 ppm. The lethal dose for lice is 16000 ppm with a
>recommended exposure of 24 hours.
>
	Where do you get your 16000 ppms from?

>So answer this simple question: if it was impossibly dangerous to use
>in a gas chamber at such low concentrations why was it safe to use in
>the delousing chambers?
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:42:02 PST 1996
Article: 23253 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New Nizkor Feature: Fallacies
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:23:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <311cd482.9085199@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <823653705snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4fdt39$5i3@curly.cc.emory.edu> <4fgm03$521g@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <4fdt39$5i3@curly.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu said:
>
>>
>>Alexander Baron (A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>>: How about this one: Leuchter was paid by Zundel; Zundel is a Nazi;
>>therefore : Leuchter's report doesn't count.
>
>>How about this one: "We know the gas chambers couldn't work, because
>>Leuchter said so."
>
>>Given that Leuchter isn't an engineer, has never been paid by anybody to
>>design a gas chamber, and has no know expertise whatsoever, what logical
>>fallacy is demonstrated above?
>
>I don't know about the logical fallacy, but I see a universal truth. 
>Deniers are frauds and idiots.

	"A universal truth". Now that is awesome. Do you have any
supporting material?
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                                                          



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:42:03 PST 1996
Article: 23254 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:23:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <311cd487.9089757@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4cblcb$p1g@zippy.cais.net> <4f58e9$158@zippy.cais.net> <4f6el8$ck8@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <3118bd51.466642@news.pacificnet.net> <4fb92t$2is@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <311a1865.5852039@news.pacificnet.net> <4fg95s$19c6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <311a1865.5852039@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said
>
>[Mr. Green's excellent post, debunking Moran's imbecility, deleted for space
>reasons]
>
>>>
>>	I take it that all the above is contingent on only 15% of the HCN applied
>>was availed upon to kill the thousand at a time?
>
>>	Anyway, thanks for the added flim flam in response to the
>>original post.
>
>You really take the cake for mealy-mouthed shabby intellectual gutlessness. 
>You challenge Mr. Green to debate your idiotic statements and he responds
>with a long and erudite and easily verifiable post.  He obviously put a lot
>of work into that, naively believing that you really give a damn about the
>truth (he simply doesn't know you well enough yet), and your *only* response
>is the above quoted tripe.
>
>You are a mental cipher, Mr. Moran.  I would add that you are also a
>dishonest and sleazy piece of filth, except that I think you are too stupid
>to form a rational value judgment.

	Are you going to give a expanded empirical follow up to the
above, or is that it?
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                       



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:42:04 PST 1996
Article: 23255 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:23:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <311cd48b.9093437@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3118bcef.367942@news.pacificnet.net> <4fc4vn$b3o@news.enter.net> <311a1ae7.6494496@news.pacificnet.net> <4fg963$1n4q@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <311a1ae7.6494496@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said:
>
>>>>  	The Zykolne B in the form that it is recognized as having been
>>>>  in was manufactured for the purpose of fumigation, to be scattered in
>>>>  among the clothes or whatever else was fumigated, or as the brochure
>>>>  that has mentioned out here, on the floor of an enclosure, the same
>>>>  way one might make use of mothballs. 
>>>
>>>	Wrong again, Tommy, wrong again.
>
>>	Another example of Yale's idea of empirical response.
>
>No, dimwit.  Another example of an empirical *observation* on the part of
>Mr. Edeiken.

	Mc Fee's non-empirical support of Yale's non-empirical
statement. I think I will have to put the following in macro, 'Is this
the best you can do?'
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                                                                



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 10 12:42:05 PST 1996
Article: 23256 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NY Times letter
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:23:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311cd48f.9097777@news.pacificnet.net>
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Alexander Baron  wrote:

>In article <4fdkb2$fb7@shiva.usa.net> hkatz@earth.usa.net "Harry Katz" writes:
>
>> 
>> When Israel was the only ally America had in the Middle East and the
>> Soviet Union was still a threat and dominant presence in the Middle
>> East, the Times supported Israel and printed pro-Israel letters.
>
>
>Mr Katz parrots the Israel is the great ally of the US crap. Tell that
>to the crew of the U.S.S. Liberty. The only reason Israel has enjoyed
>such virtually unconditional support of the US is because of the wailing
>and gnashing of teeth Zionist lobby, and, I would suggest, the main reason
>that support is waning is because the Arab lobby is learning to wail every
>bit as loudly and lobby every bit as effectively as the servants of 
>Imperial Zion. Mind you, they have had rather more to wail about these past 
>50 years.
>
	When it comes to analyzing or debating the benefits of Israel
to the U.S. I would start off with the opening statement, 'Not only
can it be shown that nothing good has ever come of U.S. support of
Israel, but that it can be shown that only bad things have come of
it.' 

>-- 
>
>Alexander Baron: InFoText Manuscripts
>
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 11 08:09:43 PST 1996
Article: 23312 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:16:14 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  > 
>>  	I know quite a bit about N.J. The Pine Barrens are a natural
>>  growth, in an area that has the climate for it. There are trees all
>>  over N.J.  Israel is a desert. You know, "The Jews made the desert
>>  bloom".
>>  >
>> 
>	Yes, Moron, they did so by planting trees, draining swamps, and 
>developing new means of irrigation.  The northern part of Israel is not a natural 
>desert but a man-made one.  If you knew so much about New Jersey you would 
>know that the pine barrens are, mostly wasteland.  The problems of bringing it 
>into useful production are very similar to the problems in the Galilee.

		The Pine Barrens of N.J. get roughly the same amount
of rain fall as the rest of the "Garden State" which is way more than
what Israel where the Jews made the "desert bloom".  The only thing
that makes the Pine Barrens a bit of a problem to develope for any
agriculture is that it is sandy. The millions of trees that grow there
have been there for millennia by natural growth.

> 
>>  	If theres any lies, show them to be lies. 
>
>	That has been done, time and again.

	Lets see, you say you show lies to be lies by merely saying
that you show them to be lies? 
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 11 08:09:45 PST 1996
Article: 23338 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide, Zyklon-B & Mass Murder
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 14:59:53 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:


>Archive/File: camps/auschwitz/cyanide cyanide.001
>Last-Modified: 1994/10/03
>From: Raskolnikov 

>                TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF THE HOLOCAUST:
>               Cyanide, Zyklon-B, and Mass Murder

>                       Brian Harmon
>
>I. Introduction
>
>    Because many holocaust deniers find themselves unable to 
>dismiss the many volumes of historical information documenting 
>the Holocaust, they often turn to other methods.  A very 
>common tactic is to claim that the Holocaust was "technically  
>impossible", improperly citing chemical and physical data as 
>"proof".  The most well known example is the "Leuchter Report" 
>where Fred Leuchter, a self-proclaimed engineer, claimed that 
>"no one was gassed at Auschwitz", using a combination of poor 
>chemical analysis and technical difficulties as "proof".

	I would say the '"technically impossible"' is meant here to
apply to the ensueing subject relating to Zyklone B. The more accurate
discription for revisionist views would be 'technically improbable'.
This opening paragraph makes use of responding to its own selection of
wording. Quoting Leuchter's "no one was gassed at Auschwitz" is not an
"example" (The reports word) of someone saying it is '"technically
impossible". Of course if someone had said, 'Since we have deduced it
is technically impossible to gas anyone with Zyklone B under the
time/physical conditions alleged we can assert that no one was gassed
at Auschwitz', this would be a relationship. In what context or from
where the quote "technically impossible" came from is not told.
	  
>Another example, "The Luftl Report", written by the Austrian 
>Walter Luftl, erroneously claims that not enough people could 
>be crammed into the chambers, and that Zyklon was too 
>dangerous to use for extermination.  Many of these documents 
>are shrouded in pseudo-scholarly terminology and methodology, 
>and use confusing statements to make their lies seem more 
>tenable.  The deniers hope to play on the common individual's 
>lack of knowledge in chemistry and physiology to confuse and 
>obfuscate the issue.  

	Now "The Luftl Report" sounds like a real loser by this
account, "not enough" people could be crammed in and that Zyklone B
was "too dangerous to use for extermination"? No wonder this
Nizkor/Harmon report selects this as "another example" of revisionist
lunacy. There is a wierd irony to it though. At least we can now
recognize that the Nizkor presented Harmon report by mocking the "too
dangerous to use for extermination" phrase accedes that it is not too
dangerous. 
	
>    I will not deal directly with the claims of Leuchter and 
>Luftl here, rather I hope to provide the knowledge necessary 
>to take on Holocaust denier's claims directly, so they can 
>easily be discredited by anyone.

	One would think that, at least he would take a stab at
responding to Leuchter directly along the way. But he says he has a
easier way.

>> As I hope to show, a little 
>knowledge of physiology and chemistry is all that is required 
>to see through their fabrications.
 
Okay here we go with the little knowledge.

>    In this paper, I will discuss how cells make and use 
>energy via aerobic metabolism.  Then, I will show exactly how 
>cyanide kills by shutting down aerobic (oxygen-using) 
>metabolism in organisms, including how much cyanide can kill, 
>and why warm blooded mammals are the most susceptible to 
>cyanide poisoning.  The supporting biochemical and 
>toxicological data will set the context for the next section, 
>which discusses how the gassing of people could be carried 
>out.  I will extrapolate from the Degesch manual on Zyklon B 
>to show that Zyklon cloud be used quite easily in a number of 
>situations, even at very low temperatures. I will then present 
>a "hypothetical gassing", where I will run some basic 
>calculations showing how easily a large number of people 
>(about 1.8 million) could be killed in one and one half years 
>with only one gassing a day.  Comparing this with documents on 
>how the camps actually were run, It should be self-evident 
>that gassings with cyanide were quite easy for the Nazis to 
>carry out. 

>    This document may be of a somewhat technical and 
>detailed nature.  It is also exceptionally long, much longer 
>than I had anticipated.

But wait a minute, he said before that it was going to be easy.

>    To remedy this, I also will write a 
>shorter "reference sheet"  that takes the major conclusions 
>and points of this paper without all of the laborious 
>calculations and explanations.  I intended this document 
>primarily as a reference resource rather than a document to be 
>completely absorbed at one sitting.
 
	'So I'm hoping that whatever I put in the '"referrence sheet"
will sway you to believe'. 
>
                  Okay, now here's the easy part.	

>II. Structure of the Paper
>
>Part one:  Physiological Basis of Cyanide Poisoning
>        A. Cells and energy     
>                -- How cells use energy         
>                -- How the electron transport system works
>                -- How oxidative phosphorylation provides energy 
>        B. Cytochromes in the Electron Transport System
>                -- Different cytochromes, and hemoglobin
>        B. How Cyanide Kills
>                -- Poisoning the ETS  
>                -- Hemoglobin
>        D. Data on Cyanide 
>Part Two:  Use of Zyklon B
>        A. Extrapolate from Nuremburg doc N1-9912
>        B. A Hypothetical Gassing
>        C. Compare to Existing Documents
>Conclusion
>
>A Brief Aside:  What is Cyanide?
>
>    Cyanide refers to a large number of compounds that 
>contain the negatively charged cyanide ion:  CN-.  This ion 
>consists of one carbon atom triple-bonded to one nitrogen 
>atom. The negative charge primarily rests on the carbon atom.  
>Cyanide can be found both as a gas and as a salt.  When bound 
>to hydrogen, it's referred to as hydrogen cyanide (HCN), and 
>is a gas at room temperature.  When bound to ions like sodium 
>(Na+) or Potassium (K+), it's a salt and is a water soluble 
>solid. Its name varies depending on the ion it binds. KCN is 
>potassium cyanide, for example.
>
>    More information is presented in the "Data on Cyanide" 
>section (see below).
>
>Part One: The Physiological Basis of Cyanide Poisoning
>
>  A. Cells and Energy {1}.  
>
>    Cells need energy to grow and maintain their function. 
>In cells, energy is carried in the form of a transport 
>molecule, namely Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP).  The metabolism 
>of molecules such as glucose (sugar), lipids (fats), etc. 
>release energy that is used to make more ATP.  ATP is  
>essentially an "energy carrier" that allows cells to utilize 
>energy derived from food.  Without ATP, a cell will die, as 
>will the organism itself.  If a chemical interrupts a cell's 
>ATP producing machinery, that cell will die once it runs out 
>of ATP.  Cyanide eliminates a cell's ability to produce ATP.  
>Before we can discuss how this happens, we must first deal 
>with how cells produce ATP under normal conditions.
>
>    Almost all ATP is produced in the mitochondria, a small 
>cellular organelle (literally "small organ").  The 
>mitochondria are, in essence, the "power plants" of a cell.  A 
>mitochondrion has two membranes, an inner one and and outer 
>one.  The outer membrane is highly permeable, and it will 
>allow just about anything through.  The inner membrane, on the 
>other hand, is very impermeable.   Only carbon dioxide (CO2), 
>water (H2O) and oxygen (O2) can pass through this membrane 
>without transport proteins to carry them across{2}.  The 
>impermeable nature of the inner mitochondrial membrane (IMM) 
>will be important later.  
>
>    Cells produce ATP through a combination of the electron 
>transport system (ETS) and oxidative phosphorylation (OP), 
>both in the mitochondrial inner membrane.  The electron 
>transport system can be compared to an electric motor, where 
>current supplied to the motor allows work to be done.  The 
>current passing through an electric motor is just a stream of 
>electrons, and the "current" passing through the ETS is no 
>different.  High energy molecules generated by metabolism like 
>NADH and FADH2 supply the ETS with electrons, just as a 
>battery would supply a motor with current.  This current 
>allows the ETS to do work.  The "work" done is the pumping of 
>positively charged hydrogen atoms (protons, H+) across the 
>inner mitochondrial membrane.  As I stated earlier, this 
>membrane will not allow anything back across without help from 
>a transport protein.  At the end of the ETS, electrons have to 
>"go somewhere" to keep the current flowing -- they must leave 
>the ETS.  In a battery, electrons go to the positive pole.  In 
>the ETS, electrons are dumped onto oxygen, in effect acting 
>like an electron "sink".  This is where oxygen is used in 
>metabolism, and will be dealt with later.  
>
>    After a certain time, a significant number of protons 
>will be pumped out of the inner mitochondria, with many more 
>protons outside the mitochondria than inside.  As the protons 
>are positively charged, the area outside the mitochondria will 
>have a relative positive charge, and the inside will have a 
>relative negative charge.  There now exists a net potential 
>across the membrane, much like a fully charged battery. This 
>potential can be relieved to do work, namely the synthesis of 
>ATP. 
>
>    The positive charges outside the mitochondria will 
>"want" to flow back in for two reasons: (1) the electrical 
>potential between the inner mitochondrial membrane and the 
>outer mitochondria. The positively charged H+ ions (protons) 
>will flow, if allowed, into the more negatively charged inner 
>mitochondria.  This is much like how a battery works, but in 
>reverse.  (2) The chemical gradient across the membrane.  
>Simply by random motions, molecules will flow from areas of 
>high concentration (outside the mitochondria) to those of low 
>concentration (inside the mitochondria).  This is the same 
>reason a drop of dye in water will spread out over time even 
>if undisturbed.  If molecules are prevented from diffusing by 
>a barrier (the inner membrane), a net pressure will result 
>from their impacts on the membrane, called the osmotic 
>pressure. The combination of electrical potential and osmotic 
>pressure is what provides the energy to make ATP in a cell 
>{3}.
>
>    Oxidative phosphorylation (making ATP) requires a 
>membrane-bound protein enzyme called ATP synthetase {4}.  ATP 
>synthetase allows H+ ions back across the membrane, relieving 
>the pressure like letting air out a balloon.  This flow of 
>protons allows the enzyme to combine Adenosine Diphosphate 
>(low E) and inorganic phosphate to make ATP (high energy). 
>This type of ATP synthesis is called oxidative 
>phosphorylation.  It takes about two or three protons moving 
>through the enzyme to make one ATP molecule.  The enzyme 
>requires a proton gradient across the membrane, with a higher 
>concentration on the outside than the inside.  If anything 
>prevents the electron transport system from setting up this 
>proton gradient, ATP synthesis will not occur and the cell 
>will die.
>
>-- Cyanide Poisoning
>
>    At the very end of the ETS, four electrons are added to 
>an oxygen molecule (see above).  These electrons are added to 
>an oxygen molecule (O2), which combines with protons to make 2 
>water molecules.  The ETS must dump electrons onto oxygen just 
>to keep the steady flow of electrons going, otherwise 
>electrons will "back up" and the current will stop.  
>Metabolism has an absolute requirement for oxygen, and it will 
>stop without it.  If the ETS stops, the proton gradient will 
>fade away, ATP synthesis will stop, and the cell with die.  
>This last step, where electrons are given to oxygen to make 
>water, is where our cells utilize oxygen in metabolism.  
>Cyanide prevents the transfer of electrons to oxygen from the 
>last protein in the electron transport system, called a 
>cytochrome.
>
>    Cyanide reaches cells primarily through the blood, and 
>readily diffuses across the lungs during normal breathing.  
>Ingestion with food or drink is also lethal, as cyanide will 
>diffuse across the stomach wall and small intestine. Cyanide 
>will also very slowly diffuse across the skin, but this can 
>take over an hour {5}.  Therefore cyanide intake through the 
>lungs and digestive tract is a very significant source of 
>poisoning, but very little occurs from absorption through the 
>skin.  
>
>  B. Cytochromes in the ETS
>        
>    Electrons passing through ETS are carried by three types 
>of molecules:  iron-sulfur proteins, ubiquinone, and 
>cytochromes {6}.  When talking about cyanide poisoning, the 
>cytochromes are the most important.  Cytochromes contain a 
>very important structure called a porphyrin ring, which is an 
>aromatic, planar carbon-based ring with an iron atom 
>conjugated in the middle.  A similar porphyrin ring structure 
>is also the oxygen binding structure in hemoglobin, a 
>vertebrate oxygen carrier protein in the blood.  The iron has 
>two oxidation, or "charge" states, +2 (when it holds and 
>electron) and +3 (when it doesn't).  The iron atom holds one 
>electron at a time, and passes it on the next molecule in the 
>ETS.  
>
>    The iron atom, in addition to being bound by the 
>porphyrin ring, is often conjugated by the amino acids 
>histidine or cysteine.  As the ring structure is planar, there 
>are two faces that can be conjugated by amino acids:
>                
>                        His
>                        |
>                ---- Fe(+3)--   Porphyrin molecule (side view)
>                        |
>                        His   
>
>    Some cytochromes, however, are open on one of their two 
>faces:
>                
>        --- Fe(+3)---
>            |
>            His
>
>    This open face is where hemoglobin in the blood cells 
>and a specific cytochrome in the ETS (Cytochrome a3, to be 
>exact) bind oxygen.  Cytochrome a3 is the terminal cytochrome 
>that passes on electrons to oxygen to make water:
>
>         O2  +  (2)H2  +  4 electrons ---->  (2)H20
>
>        Cyt a3 binds oxygen at its open face {7}:
>
>                02
>                |
>        ---- Fe(+2)--
>                |
>                His
>
>    When all works well, cytochrome a3 passes electrons to 
>oxygen, producing water. Dumping electrons onto oxygen acts as 
>a "sink" which allows electrons to flow continuously through 
>the ETS.  The only problem is, certain poisons bind to this 
>cytochrome more strongly than oxygen, specifically cyanide and 
>carbon monoxide {8}.
>
>  C. How Cyanide Kills
>
>-- Poisoning the ETS
>
>    Cyanide binds cytochromes much in the same way that 
>oxygen does, by conjugating at its open site.  Unlike oxygen, 
>cyanide cannot receive electrons from cytochrome a3.  
>        
>        -:C=N: (note - actually a triple bond between C and N)
>          |
>     ---Fe(+2)--
>          |
>         His
>
>    With the ETS deprived of its electron "sink", the whole 
>system backs up.  Without the ETS, oxidative phosphorylation 
>will dissipate the H+ gradient, ATP synthesis will stop, and 
>the cell will die.  Cyanide binds cytochromes more tightly 
>than oxygen, and as a result is lethal at very low 
>concentrations, at about 300 ppm.  The effect also occurs at 
>hemoglobin, as cyanide will bind to that too, preventing 
>oxygen from reaching cells.  In essence, this is how cyanide 
>kills cells and whole organisms.
>
>-- Hemoglobin
>
	Okay, now we're getting to the gist of the whole thing,
Zyklone B works better on mammals (humans) than it does on insects.

>   Cyanide is most effective on warmblooded animals such as 
>mammals, but is less effective on insects.  While insect 
>mitochondria and vertebrate mitochondria are not radically 
>different, one thing is: Hemoglobin.  Vertebrates carry oxygen 
>in their blood via hemoglobin, while insects do not carry 
>oxygen in their blood at all.  Instead, insects have air 
>tubules that carry oxygen directly to all cells in their body.  
>Because cyanide poisons hemoglobin too, animals that use it 
>are all the more susceptible. Also (while I am not sure of 
>this) insects may be more tolerant of anaerobic metabolism 
>than vertebrates.       
>
>   Since cyanide binds to hemoglobin much in the same fashion 
>as it binds cytochrome a3, cyanide takes hemoglobin out of 
>commission as well {9}.  With their oxygen carrying molecules 
>bound by cyanide, vertebrates die all the faster from 
>asphyxiation.  Mammals are also very dependent on oxygen-
>utilizing metabolism, and will die in minutes if it is shut 
>off.  Insects, lacking hemoglobin, die more slowly as their 
>cells must be starved of ATP. Insects may also be able to 
>survive longer on anaerobic (non-O2 utilizing) metabolism.
>
>    Cyanide kills by binding to cytochrome a3 in the electron 
>transport system.  As this site is usually bound by oxygen, 
>the passage of electrons from the ETS to oxygen is prevented, 
>backing up the system.  Unable to maintain a proton gradient 
>without a properly functioning ETS, ATP synthesis stops and 
>the cell dies.  In vertebrate organisms, cyanide also binds to 
>the porphyrin ring in hemoglobin, exacerbating cyanide's toxic 
>effects.  
>
> D. Data on Hydrogen Cyanide:
>
>    Here's what the 10th edition (1983) of the Merck Index had 
>to say on Hydrogen Cyanide:
>
>HYDROGEN CYANIDE: Hydrocyanic acid, Blauseare, prussic acid. 
>[preparation info deleted] Colorless gas or liquid; 
>characteristic odor; very weakly acidic; burns in air with a 
>blue flame.  INTENSELY POISONOUS EVEN MIXED WITH AIR.

>        Gas density:  0.941 (air = 1)
>        Liquid density: 0.687 [g/cm^3, I assume]
>        melting point: -13.4 deg Celsius
>        Boiling Point: 25.6 deg Celsius
>        
>    The LC50 (lethal dose for 50% of animals) in rats -- 544 
>ppm (5min), mice 169 ppm (30 min), dogs 300 ppm (3 min).  
>HUMAN TOXICITY:  [..] exposure to 150 ppm for 1/2 to 1 hour 
>may endanger life.  Death may result from a few min. exposure 
>to 300 ppm.  Average fatal dose: 50 to 60 milligrams.
	Lets see, it takes 544 ppm to kill a rat in 5 minutes, and
300 ppm to kill a dog in 3 minutes, which comes out to needing less in
less time to kill the bigger animal. Whether or not the dog must be a
chihauha pup right out of the womb or a Saint Bernard it doesn't say?
 
>    USE:  The compressed gas is used for exterminating rodents 
>and insects in ships and for killing insects on trees, etc.  
>MUST BE HANDLED BY SPECIALLY TRAINED EXPERTS.
>
	SUDDENLY, WE'RE TALKING "COMPRESSED GAS", not Zyklone B?.

>Here's what _Chemistry of Industrial Toxicology_ had to say 
>about it (p94) [added emphasis is mine]:
>
>    "Hydrogen cyanide, or hydrocyanic or prussic acid, owes 
>its toxicity not to its acidity but to the cyanide ion (CN-). 
>Thus the soluble cyanides-- sodium, potassium,etc. -- are 
>equally toxic in the same molar concentrations.  Unlike carbon 
>monoxide, hydrogen cyanide is a protoplasmic poison, killing 
>insects and other lower [sic] forms of animal life.  _It does 
>not kill bacteria, however_.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^	
	Okay, thats better, it does kill insects. Of course whatever
ensues from here on out about it being lethal to "bacteria" is
irrelevant since it is not asserted to have ever been intended for the
purpose. One should take note of the pointer underlining that stresses
"not kill bacteria, however".
                          
>^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	
>Hydrogen cyanide acts by inhibiting tissue oxidation, that is, 
>by preventing useful employment of oxygen carried by the 
>blood.
>
>    Cyanides are very rapid in their effects, killing 
>instantly if present in sufficient amounts.  It is this speed 
>of action, rather than the minuteness of the fatal dose, which 
>accounts for the reputation of cyanide as the most powerful 
>common poison [..]

	A real mind twister. "Cyanides are very rapid in their
effects, killing instantly if present in sufficient amounts"
regardless of "the minuteness of the fatal dose". Well, no numbers are
given here so its a useless statement. It doesn't list examples of
what constitutes a "common" poison. If it was in the "final solution"
to kill people with gas you might think they would resort to something
that wasn't just laying around and on hand for other purposes. 
>
>    Hydrogen cyanide is used as a fumigant in dwellings, 
>warehouses, and ships. _Although such fumigations are 
>potentially very dangerous, accidents can be avoided by proper 
>precautions.

	"Potentially very dangerous". We'll note this for possible
future referrence. Does Harmon tell us if he's still talking about
"compressed (HCN) gas" or Zyklone B? Lets wait and see._  
>
>In high concentrations, hydrogen cyanide is absorbed through 
>the skin; therefore complete reliance cannot be placed on a 
>gas mask. After 1 hour exposure, 100 to 250 ppm of HCN are 
>dangerous."
>[assumed the 100-250 ppm value is for absorption through skin]

	(Note) "High concentrations" ... "absorbed through the skin"
can be "dangerous".

	Okay, we summarize; "high concentrations" are "100 to 250 ppm"
and that it would take an hour at this rate "for absorption through
skin" to be "dangerous". 

>        Some things I'd like to point out:
>
>    Cyanide will not kill bacteria, and is completely useless 
>for disinfecting a morgue or hospital.  Its only medical use 
>is to kill vermin (rats, mice, lice) that may harbor 
>pathogens.  Some Holocaust deniers claim that cyanide was used 
>to disinfect "morgues" in Auschwitz.  This is clearly a 
>ludicrous notion.
	Okay, makes special note of the "bacteria" topic, again.
	Do revisionists assert it was used to kill "bacteria"? No.
They recognize it as being around for the extermination of lice.
(Keep an eye out for this common practice: Inserting their own
additons to deny deniers. In this case the word is "bacteria".)
>
>    The sources I listed make specific references to HCN's 
>widespread use as a fumigant, and that it can be done easily 
>with the right precautions.

	Okay, (note) "widespread use" as a fumigant and can be used
"easily with the right precautions"
>
>Major Modes of Poisoning  
>
>    HCN will pass through the skin, and poisoning can result.  
>Absorption through the skin is a much slower process than 
>through lungs, so a short exposure to skin is not very 
>dangerous.   It also takes a higher concentration of the gas 
>{10}. Absorption of cyanide through the skin is not 
>significant unless the concentration is high over a long 
>exposure.  
>
>    According to July 1993 issue of _American Family 
>Physician_, cyanide poisoning through the skin is very rare:  
>   
>"   Cyanide is absorbed through the lungs, gastrointestinal 
>tract, and skin.  Symptoms can occur within seconds of HCN 
>[cyanide gas] inhalation; ....Cyanide is readily absorbed 
>through the mucous membranes and the eyes.  Clinical cases of 
>cyanide poisoning after dermal exposure are rare and most 
>often have involved burns with molten cyanide salts or 
>immersion in cyanide solutions." 
>        
>    Cyanide poisoning through the skin is therefore not a 
>significant mode of poisoning unless you have very high 
>concentrations over a very long period of time.
     
	(Noted) Not a danger through absorption through the skin
unless it is in "high concentrations" over a "very" "long" time.

        Putting this into the numbers already presented the "high
concentrations" over a "very" "long" time that would be "dangerous" is
- one hour at 100 to 220 ppm.
 
>
>PART TWO: The Use of Zyklon B
>
>A) Nuremburg Document #NI-9912:  The Degesch Manual
>
>    As mentioned above in the technical data section, hydrogen 
>cyanide is often used as a fumigant for ships, warehouses, and 
>dwellings.  Cyanide can be used to kill vermin and insects, 
>but it will not kill bacteria {11}.  It is therefore useless 
>for disinfecting anything, but it will eliminate vermin that 
>harbor pathogens.

	"Dwellings"? Like barracks, or SS sleeping quarters?  Could it
be that Zyklone B was also a - household product?  
	The "bacteria" insertion again.?  
>
>    For fumigation purposes, a German firm called Degesch made 
>a product called Zyklon B.  Zyklon B consisted of liquid HCN 
>adsorbed onto a carrier -- "wood fiber disks, dia gravel, or 
>small blue cubes [sic]" {12}.  Although toxic, cyanide was 
>hard to detect alone, so an irritant was added to the Zyklon 
>to warn people of exposure.  
>
>    A "typical" can of Zyklon contained 200 grams of HCN 
>adsorbed onto the carrier, and was stored in metal tins marked 
>with a death's head and warning that read: "Giftgas!" (Deathly 
>poisonous gas!) {13}.  Zyklon-B shipments to Nazi Death camps 
>had the warning indicator removed, which would prevent people 
>from detecting the gas's presence before it was too late {14}.

	Was the '"typical"' can a  1, 2, 4, or what kilogram can? 
        
>    The original Degesch set of instructions on using Zyklon-B 
>for fumigation discuss the various precautions that must be 
>taken, and under what conditions could Zyklon B be used.  The 
>primary means of protection was a gas mask, and many different 
>structures and temperatures pose no problem for fumigation.  
>The Degesch manual is also known as Nuremburg document NI-
>9912.  Information is taken from the English translation, but 
>I have checked most of the quotes and information with the 
>original German (I speak a little, and read a bit more).  I 
>won't quote the whole thing here, but I want to point out some 
>noteworthy items {15}:
>
>1) Properties of Prussic Acid [HCN, cyanide]:  
>
>    "Prussic acid is a gas which is generated by 
>evaporation... the liquid evaporates easily."  
>    "Danger of explosion:  75 grams of HCN in 1 cubic meter of 
>air.  Normal application approx. 8-10 g per cubic meter, 
>therefore not explosive"
>    "....one mg per kg of body weight is sufficient to kill a 
>human being..."
	What is this. Someone has to drink this amount all at once? or
is it what they have to breath - and for how long? No time unit given
which is vital to come to a conclusion. Anyway, note should be taken
that in this sentence with the, "...", we notice that somethng was
left out in the most critical item, that which deals with human
beings.
   
>2) Protection against gas.
>    "Each member must at all times carry with him:
>        1. his own gas mask
>        2. at least 2 special filter inserts against Zyklon 
>      Prussic acid [for use in gas mask]
>        3. The leaflet 'First aid for prussic acid poisoning'
>        4. work order
>        5. Authorization certificate
> 
>Each disinfestation[sic] squad must at all times carry:
>        1. at least 3 special inserts as extra stock.
>        2. one gas detector
>        3. 1 instrument for injecting Lobelin. 
>        4. Cardiazol, Voriazol tablets 
>        5. 1 lever or pickhammer for opening cans of Zyklon
>        [etc.. warning signs, material to reseal cans]"
>
>    NOTE: No measure of personal protection other than a gas 
>mask, special filter, a gas detector, and antidote drugs are 
>mentioned.  No precautions are taken to prevent HCN from 
>seeping through the skin.  One can only assume that there 
>wouldn't be a high enough concentration of gas or there 
>wouldn't be enough time for the gas to seep in.  Therefore, a 
>gas mask with special filters alone would be sufficient to 
>protect a user against the gas.  

	Okay, this lays the ground work to show that it wasn't so
dangerous so as to limit it's use to highly specialized technicians
and could be used by trained SS.

>3) Buildings to be fumigated:
>
>    A wide variety of structures are mentioned, with all types 
>of contents.  Detailed descriptions are given on how to handle 
>pets, bedding, clothing, and other domestic items inside of a 
>building to be fumigated.  Also, recommendations for sealing 
>and ventilating various building types are given.  Form these 
>instructions, it is clear that Zyklon-B was used to fumigate 
>any number of buildings, including residential dwellings.  
>Buildings did not have to be designed specifically for 
>Zyklon's use.  

	Does this mean that it was a household product and the
previous "squads" who needed gas masks and anti-effects drugs was for
special application?
>
>4) Working Temperature:
>        
>    The instructions discuss using Zyklon at low temperatures, 
>even below five degrees Celsius.  To fumigate a building, it 
>will take 8g of prussic acid per cubic meter for 16 hours at 
>temperatures above five degrees Celsius.  Even warmer 
>temperatures need only 6 hours fumigation time.  If the 
>temperature is below five degrees Celsius, the fumigation time 
>is to be extended to 32 hours.  
>
>    These times are for flies, lice, fleas, etc. with eggs, 
>larvae and chrysalises.  I can only guess it would take less 
>time for warm blooded mammals like rats and mice, unless the 
>"etc." refers to them as well.
>
>   Since Zyklon can be effectively used at temperatures close 
>to freezing, it seems that even cold temperatures did not 
>prevent the use of Zyklon as fumigant (or the case of the 
>Holocaust, as a murder weapon).

	Whats all that about having to lower pails of hot coke to warm
the place up so the Zyklone B would "gas off"? 
>
>    Let me summarize the points taken from the Degesch 
>documents: (1) the HCN liquid evaporates easily, and is highly 
>toxic; (2) normal working concentrations are well below (10X) 
>explosive amounts; (3) the only protection needed on each 
>person was a gas mask with special filters; (3) a whole 
>variety of structures can be fumigated, including dwellings 
>containing clothing and bedding; and (4) Zyklon can be 
>effectively used at temperatures below five degrees Celsius.  
>Taking all of this into account, it would seem that murdering 
>large numbers of people with Zyklon-B in specially constructed 
>rooms would be relatively simple, given that the gas is highly 
>toxic and fairly easy to use for fumigation. 
>
>    The fact that the irritant indicator was removed from 
>shipments to Nazi death camps is another curious feature, as 
>one would wonder why an obvious safety feature would be 
>removed from a product if its intended use was purely benign.  
>Eyewitness accounts from individuals such as Fillip Mu"ller 
>and documents describing the use of Zyklon-B in the gas 
>chambers themselves are all the more damning.

	But then we have all those accounts of people yelling "gas"
and reacting right away to it when it was dropped in.
        
>B) A Hypothetical Gassing
>
>    In order to answer the question "How easy would it have 
>been to gas people with Zyklon-B?", I will carry out some 
>calculations to show just how feasible such a process would 
>be.  Specifically, I will use an "average" size gas chamber to 
>see how many people could be fit into one, and how many could 
>have been killed in 18 months at a camp like Auschwitz, which 
>had four large chambers (Krema I and Bunkers I and II will not 
>be considered for reasons of simplicity).  I will also discuss 
>how much Zyklon B would be needed to reach lethal 
>concentration in the room, and how fast 1 kilo of Zyklon would 
>have to evaporate to reach the lethal concentration of 300 ppm 
>in ten minutes.  
>
>    Imagine a room with 210 square meters of floor space. I 
>chose this value as it was mentioned as a typical size of a 
>gas chamber in Auschwitz-Birkenau in the Leuchter report FAQ 
>routinely posted by Ken Mcvay  
>{16}.  I'll simply assume that the walls are 2.5 meters high, 
>so the building will have a total volume of 525 cubic meters, 
>or 5.25 X 10^5 liters.  
>
	Interesting. The report is now using Leuchter as the authority
scource for the "average" size of a gas chamber. It is put at 210 sq.
meters, or roughly 10 by 20 meters - 31 ft. x 62 ft.
	Aninteresting thing is, it is very hard to find any
numerically definitive measurements for these crematoria in Holocaust
books. Obviously, their relative small dimensions in relation to what
is said to have taken place in any particular one is to be avoided.

>    The structure would be fitted with vents on the ceiling 
>for pouring in the Zyklon, and exhaust fans would be be used 
>to clear the room once gassing was completed.  This structure 
>would be largely below ground, to help maintain a constant 
>temperature using the earth as insulation.

	Now temperature is a critical factor.

>(Not all of the gas chambers at Auschwitz were below ground, in
>fact Kremas IV and V were above ground structures.)  Keeping the
>chambers below ground would also allow easy access to the roof.  The 
>perpetrators could pour gas in through the roof while wearing 
>gas masks. Camp inmates could be used to remove the bodies and 
>transport them to the crematoria once the gassing was complete 
>and the room had been cleared of gas.  In reality, a quite 
>simple operation.

	Instead of building the gas chamber at ground level so as not
to have to carry all the dead bodies up stairs the Germans built it
below ground so as to make it "easy access to the roof"? Evidentally
they learned their lesson by the time they built Kremas IV and V. 
>
>    Also, imagine that there are four such buildings in the 
>camp (representing Kremas II, III, IV, and V at Auschwitz), 
>and that each has a crematoria to go with it.  For the sake of 
>simplicity, each gas chamber will carry out only one gassing 
>per day, and the gas chambers will be forcibly ventilated for 
>at least one hour.  

	Now the reality is, that the process of gassing is commonly
presented as being a continuous process, gas one load and then make
ready for another right away. Here we have the author giving
conditions that suit his own ends.
>        
>    For the specifics of the gassing, let's look at just one 
>chamber.  A building with 210 m^2 of floor space can easily 
>accommodate four people per square meter (my calculations 
>based upon how many people I could fit in one square meter, it 
>wasn't even a tight fit)  As I said earlier, the empty volume 
>of the room is 525 m^3.  By my calculations, a human person 
>will take up 0.081 cubic meters {17}.  At four people per 
>square meter, that's 840 people in one room, which take up 
>68.04 m^3 of space.  That leaves a free volume of 456.96 m^3 
>(457 m^3 from now on.)
>
>    To show (1) how much Zyklon it would take to reach the 
>lethal 300 ppm level, and (2) how fast 1 kilo of Zyklon would 
>have to evaporate to reach 300 ppm in ten minutes, we need to 
>know how much volume one kg of air takes up.  Ideal gas 
>assumptions say that one mole (6.021 X 10^23 molecules) of gas 
>occupy 22.4 liters at 25 deg Celsius {18}.  One mole of gas is 
>21% oxygen an 79% nitrogen (ignore the 1% of other gases and 
>assume they're not there.)  Multiply this times the molecular 
>weight of the gases (grams per mole of gas, 28g for N2, 32g 
>for O2) and the weight of one mole of gas is (0.21)*32 + 
>(.79)*28 = 28.84 grams, or 0.02884 kg per 22.4 liters (the 
>vol. of one mole of gas).  One kilogram of gas will therefore 
>occupy 776 liters of volume.
>
>    How much Zyklon-B will be needed to reach a concentration 
>of 300 ppm?  300 ppm HCN corresponds to 300 milligrams of HCN 
>per kilogram of air.  For 457 cubic meters of air, you need to 
>do some manipulations:    
>
>    457 m^3 = 4.57 X 10^5 liters * (1 kg air/ 776 liters) 
>                                =  589 kilos of air.
>
>   (0.300 grams HCN/ kg air)*(589 kg air) = 176.7 grams HCN.
>
>   ...less HCN than is contained in one can of Zyklon-B.  In 
>reality, if only 176 grams of HCN are poured into such a 
>room,they may have to wait some time before everyone is dead.  
>What if you pour in a whole kilogram of HCN?
>
>   The question now becomes, If 1 kg of HCN (5 cans) are 
>poured into our gas chamber, how fast will the HCN have to 
>evaporate to reach a lethal concentration in ten minutes?  For 
>this example, I will assume a constant rate of evaporation on 
>a per gram basis.  The rate of evaporation will be:
>
>        176.7 grams HCN/10 minutes = 17.67 grams/minute
>        (17.67 grams HCN/minute)/(1000 g HCN) X 100 = 1.76% 
>
>    Only 1.76% of the HCN will have to evaporate per minute.  
>Actually, the numbers would be slightly different as there 
>will be less HCN each minute, so 1.76% won't be as much HCN 
>after eight minutes as it was in the first.  Taking this loss 
>of material into account, even a constant 1.76% evaporation 
>rate takes only 12 minutes.  For a substance that is normally 
>a gas at room temperature, an evaporation rate this slow seems 
>quite probable.  As HCN boils at 26 degrees Celsius, it is 
>quite likely that the gas will evaporate much faster than 
>1.76% per minute.
>
>    I have searched for experimental kinetic data on HCN 
>evaporation to no avail.  If anyone knows where I get some 
>data (short of doing the expts myself), let me know.  This 
>information would be particularly useful in answering the 
>question: "How fast HCN would actually evaporate?"
>
>    With only one gassing a day, plenty of time will be left 
>for ventilating the gas chamber and moving the bodies to the 
>crematoria for combustion. The next question is, given one 
>gassing a day and four gas chambers at the camp, how many 
>people can be killed in a time period of one and one half 
>years (18 months)?  I chose this time period since the four 
>large extermination facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau were in 
>operation from 1943 until their destruction by the fleeing 
>Nazis in November 1944 {19}.  For the sake of argument, I'll 
>say that's about 1 1/2 years (May 1943 to Nov. 1944).
>
>    If the gas chambers were in operation for 548 days (1 1/2 
>yrs), the total dead would be:
>
>        (840)*(4)*(548) = 1,841,280 dead from gassing alone.

	The first of four referrences to Auschwitz mortality rate
being way over the one million currently accepted as the figure.

>    Most estimates say that 1 to 2 million died at Auschwitz 
>altogether, including deaths from starvation, torture, summary 
>execution, and medical experiments.  Clearly then, based upon 
>my largely hypothetical example, it was both possible and 
>feasible to murder that many, even in a fairly short time 
>scale of 584 days with just four working gas chambers.  In the 
>case of Auschwitz, an even shorter time of operation would be 
>necessary as not all of the 1.6 million were murdered in the 
>four main gas chambers.  Executions by firing squad and 
>gassings in the makeshift Bunkers I and II were also carried 
>out.  Also, many more died from starvation, torture, and 
>disease. 

	Wait til you get to the part where the writer says two things
at once, hes not pressing the larger number but then again ...
>
>    The only limiting factor would be the crematoria for 
>disposing of the bodies, as one could conceivably produce 
>bodies much faster via gassing than could be cremated.  Given 
>the number actually killed at Auschwitz this may not have been 
>a problem -- see the letter to SS Gen. Kammler below (also ref 
>24).  
>
>C) Relate to Existing Documents on the Holocaust 
>
>    Many documents discussing the operation of the gas 
>chambers at Auschwitz exist.  The testimony of Hanz Stark is 
>an excellent example {20}.  Hanz Stark was connected with 
>Auschwitz's "Political Department", and was responsible for 
>registering new arrivals to the camp.  He was also responsible 
>for observing executions carried out in a room next to Krema 
>I, initially carried out with a small caliber rifle.  The 
>terminology used for people dispatched in this manner was 
>Sonderbehandlung -- special treatment in English.  Prisoners 
>who had received "special treatment" were said "to have been 
>found special lodgings."  Stark was quite explicit that this 
>meant execution.  
>
>    Later on, "experimental" gassings took place in the 
>execution room adjoining Crematoria I.  Stark was also a 
>witness to gassings that took place there, and his description 
>is quoted here (in English, typos are mine):
>
>    "As I have already mentioned, the first gassing was 
>carried out in the small crematoria in autumn 1941.  Grabner 
>ordered me to go to the crematorium in order to check numbers, 
>just as I had had[sic] to do with the shootings.  About 200-
>250 Jewish men, women, and children of all ages were standing 
>at the crematorium.  There may also have been babies there 
>
>[....]  Nothing was said to the Jews.  They were merely ordered 
>to enter the gas chamber, the door of which was open.  While the 
>Jews were going into the room, medical orderlies prepared for 
>the gassing.  Earth had been piled up against one of the external 
>walls of the gassing room so that the medical orderlies could get 
>onto the roof of the room.

	Here it is again, instead of building a small stair case or
using a ladder, the Germans piled up earth so the medical orderlies
could get up on the roof. Didn't and doesn't Crematoria I have earth
on all sides?
  
>After all the Jews were in the chamber, 
>the door was bolted and the medical orderlies poured Zyklon-B 
>through the openings..."
>
>And as he later describes in a gassing he participated in 
>personally:
>
>    " As the Zyklon-B - as already mentioned - was in granular 
>form, it trickled down over the people as it was being poured 
>in.  They then started to cry out terribly for they now knew 
>what was happening to them [...] After a few minutes there was 
>silence.  After some time had passed, it may have been ten to 
>fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened.  The dead lay 
>higgeldy piggeldy all over the place.  It was a dreadful 
>sight."
>
	Here we have the Zyklone B in "granular form". Seeing how
"After some time had past ..." turns out to be only 10 to 15 minutes,
the "After a few minutes ..." seems like it should be 3 or 4.
Make it five minutes. The people died in five minutes and 10 or 15
minutes the doors were opened. Guess this Nuremberg testimony was just
too early, before real doubts surfaced to incite new deus ex machina
testimony and documents that show that a ventilation process took
place.


>    Note that these gassings took place at Krema I, a much 
>smaller structure than the homicidal gas chambers constructed 
>at the Birkenau complex (Krema II, III, IV, V).  This explains 
>why the chamber had a much smaller capacity, and earth had to 
>be piled up along side the room to allow access to the roof.  
>Other than that, the process is similar to the one I described 
>in the "hypothetical gassing" section.  
>
>   The testimony of Auschwitz camp commandant Rudolf Ho"ss 
>is also very useful {21}.  With regards to the gassing 
>process, he describes both gassings in the large chambers in 
>the Birkenau complex and ones carried out in the makeshift 
>Bunkers I and II.  Bunkers I and II were used while the major 
>extermination facilities were under construction, and had a 
>capacity of about 200-300 people at once.

	"200-300 people at once"? Is this both together, or either
one?
	Anyway, Ho'ss testified that bunker 1 could handle 800 people
at one time and bunker 2 could handle 1200. These would be the little
"red" and "white" houses. The ones with tile and thatch roofs, that
had deus ex machina concrete ceilings put in to replace the wooden
ceilings. 

>The process in the 
>bunkers was similar to that in Krema I (see above).  The 
>extermination chambers was somewhat different, as Ho"ss 
>mentions that they where equipped with an electric ventilation 
>system to quickly ventilate the rooms, and an electric lift to 
>quickly transport bodies to the Krema ovens for incineration.  
>Here the gas chambers were located underground, which allowed 
>easy access for pouring Zyklon-B into the chambers.  

	Here it is again, the Germans didn't know how to make stairs
or ladders, and they had to get on the roof to pour in the Zyklone B,
so they built them underground. This seemed to be easier even though
it then required an electric elevator to bring the bodies up from the
underground part. Gee, one would think it would be easier for a couple
of guys to walk up stairs a few times instead of having it where a
elevator had be loaded then risen emptied and lowered a hundred times
a day. 

>    Aerial photographs of the camps taken by allied 
>reconnaissance planes during the war corroborate Ho"ss 
>testimony, particularly with regards to the architecture of 
>the underground gas chamber in Krema II {22}.

	Which photo is this?  The only photos I've seen tend to deny
the tales.
>
>    A particularly gruesome testimony is provided by former
>camp inmate Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier {23}:
>
>Extract from evidence given at the Nuremburg Trials on the 
>Auschwitz Extermination Camp:
>---------------------------------
>
>M. DUBOST:  Did you actually see the "selection" when 
>transports arrived?
>
>VAILLANT-COURIER:  Yes, because when we were working in the 
>Sewing Block in 1944, the block in which we lived was situated 
>just opposite the place where the trains arrived.  The whole 
>process had been improved:  Instead of carrying out the 
>"selection" where the trains arrived, a siding took the 
>carriages practically to the gas chamber, and the train 
>stopped about 100m from the gas chamber.  That was right in 
>front of our block ..

	The whole procedure was set up for secrecy and yet the eye
witness along with "we" could see the whole thing. Well, when you need
some proof come up with an eye witness. It seems that if the eye
witness knew those she says she saw being selected were being done so
for the gas chambers we would have to assume the whole camp knew,
everyone knew, contrary to it all being kept in secret as is usually
asserted. After all, the whole thing of selection took place "right in
front of our block" about "100 meters from the gas chambers".
>
>[...]
>    They were taken to a red brick building with a sign that 
>said Baths.  There they were told to get undressed and given a 
>towel before they were taken to the so called shower room.  
>Later, at the time of the large transports from Hungary, there 
>was no time left for any degree of concealment.  They were 
>undressed brutally.  I know all these particulars because I 
>was acquainted with a little Jewess from France .... when I 
>got to know her she worked on undressing the small children 
>before they were taken into the gas chamber.

	An ear witness to an eye witness tells us the facts.

>    After all the people were undressed they were taken into a 
>room that looked like a shower room, and the capsules were 
>thrown down into the room through a hole in the ceiling.  an 
>SS man observed the effect through a spy-hole. After about 5-7 
>minutes, when the gas had done its job, he gave a signal for 
>opening the doors.

	 This statement implies, whether by mistake or intent that the
gassing took place and the doors were immediately opened after the 5
to 7 minutes without any time for ventilation.
         
>Men with gas masks, these were prisoners 
>too, came in and took the bodies out.  They told us that the 
>prisoners must have suffered before they died, because they 
>clung together in bunches like grapes so that it was difficult 
>to separate them....

	From a "little Jewess from France" it is suddenly "They" told
us? Its obvious if one wants to get a clear shot at analyzing
Nuremberg testimony they will have to view it directly, in its all,
instead of through "extracts" like this one.  
>------
>
>    There are also documents discussing exactly how many 
>people could be killed, and how many bodies could be cremated 
>in a given day.  For example, Ho"ss mentions that a maximum 
>number of 10,000 people could be gassed in a given day (note 
>that this is the number _gassed_, not cremated.) A letter sent 
>to Berlin, addressed to SS General Kammler mentions that the 
>total number of bodies that could be processed in one day as 
>4,756 {24}. Note that this figure includes cremation of the 
>bodies as well as gassing.

Take note of this next statement.

> Based on this document, a total of 2.6 million people could be
> murdered and their corpses disposed of in just one and one half
> years (548 days).

	Later Harmon will tell us about him not claiming that 2.5
million were killed at Auschwitz but then again it is well documented.
 
> This is hardly a poor generalization, as the major extermination 
>facilities at Auschwitz went on line in late 1942 (Krema II 
>and III) and mid 1943 (Krema IV and V) {25}.     
>
>    Based on the figures in the letter, my numbers generated 
>from the "hypothetical gassing" may err on the side of 
>caution.

	Here it is.

>   Note that I am not claiming that 2.5 million plus 
>were killed at Auschwitz, as I do not know the exact figure.  
>It should be self evident that the murder of about 1 to 2 
>million people in these camps (or even more) was not 
>only feasible, it was well documented. 

	"Note" that he is "not claiming that 2.5 million plus were
killed at Auschwitz" but 1 to 2 million "(or even more)" is "well
documented".

> There are many more 
>volumes of documents on the Holocaust, and one need merely 
>search their local library to find many volumes of them.  
>
>Conclusion and Summary    
>
>    In the preceding sections, I have (hopefully) shown how 
>cyanide acts as a poison, the relative ease with which it was 
>used for fumigation, and how it was used to murder hundreds of 
>thousands of innocents in gas chambers.  Let me reiterate my 
>points very quickly:
>
>1) Cyanide is very poisonous and kills by inhibiting oxidative 
>metabolism.
>
>2) Cyanide was commonly used for fumigation with relative 
>ease.

	(note) "relative ease"
>
>3) With a modification of procedures used for de-infesting a 
>building, Zyklon-B could easily be used to murder over one 
>million people in 1 and 1/2 years.
>
>4) Documents exist that discuss how gassing was done at 
>Auschwitz, and how many people could be killed and cremated 
>in a given time period.  
>
>5) These documents support my hypothetical example and 
>give detailed accounts of the gassing process.

	Or his "hypothetical example" comes from the documents, we
wouldn't be able to tell for sure.
>
>If anyone has any questions or comments you can reach me 
>at the following addresses:
>        
>        bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
>
>        brianh@itsa.ucsf.edu (after 10/14/94)
>
>and also:
>
>        Brian Harmon
>        439 Kirkham St.
>        San Francisco, CA 94122
>
>        I am currently a graduate student in Biochemistry and 
>Molecular Biology at the University of California, San 
>Francisco.
>
>Appendix:
>
>i. Qualifications of The Author:
>
>        I have Bachelor of Arts Degrees in Zoology 
>and Chemistry from Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45056.  
>I also have over two years of research experience as of 
>4/8/94.
>
>
>ii. Copyright Notice
>
>    (c) Brian Harmon, April 1994. This may be distributed 
>freely, provided it is not modified in any way, and all 
>credits are given  to the author.  Any altering of this 
>document without express consent of the author is hereby 
>forbidden.  Quoted material in this text is copyrighted by the 
>publishers of the original source(s).
>
>iii.  Acknowledgements:
>
>    I would especially like to thank Danny Keren for his 
>help on this project.  I also would like to thank Ken McVay 
>for his assistance, and for Charles Egger for functioning as a 
>second reader and editor. 
>
>

	Okay, here we have the conclusive proof to his above, a
bibliography. 

>Endnotes
>
>1) All biochemical Data and information is taken from:
>
>Voet, Donald and Voet, Judith G.  _Biochemistry_. (New York:  
>John    Wiley and Sons)  (c) 1990, 1223 pp.
> 
>Another source worth looking at is:
>
>"Cyanide Toxicity".  Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease
>        Registry, U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.  in
>        _American Family Physician_, Vol. 48, no 1, July 1993.
>        pp 107-113.  
>
>2) Voet, p 530.
>
>3) ibid, p 546 and Dr. Jan Jaworski, personal communication.
>
>4) ibid, p 549.
>
>5) Elkins, Hervey B.  _The Chemistry of Industrial 
>Toxicology_.  (New York:  John Wiley and Sons Ltd.)  2nd ed., 
>(c) 1959, p 94
>
>6) Voet, pp 538-544.
>
>7) ibid, p 545 (figure).
>
>8) ibid, p 535.
>
>9) ibid, p 222.
>
>10) Elkins, p 94
>
>11) ibid, p 94
>
>12) Nuremburg Document NI-9912, the Degesch Manual on how to 
>use Zyklon properly.  I obtained both German and English 
>versions from:
>        Mendelsohn, John and Detwiler, Donald S.  _The 
>Holocaust:  Selected Documents in Eighteen Volumes._   "Volume 
>12: The 'Final Solution' in the Extermination Camps and the 
>Aftermath"  (New York:  Garland Publishing) c. 1982,  p 137.
>
>13) Nuremburg Doc NI-032, from Mendelsohn and Detwiler, p 128.
>
>14) Nuremburg Doc NI-9913-A (excerpts)  from Mendelsohn and 
>Detwiler, p 149.
>
>15) The Degesch manual is form Mendelsohn and Detwiler, pp 
>131-146.
>
>16)Mcvay, Kenneth N. (1993) "HOLOCAUST FAQ:  The Leuchter Report"  
>Usenet.news.answers.  Available via anonymous ftp 
>from rtfm.mit.edu in pub/usenet/news.answers/holocaust
>/leuchter/part01 (and ~part 02).  approx. 23 pages,   p 4. 
>
>17) I assumed that a human was merely a rectangular box, 
>neglecting the head.  The height of the box was measured from 
>the shoulders to the floor, the breadth was measured across 
>the chest at sternum level, and the depth was also measured at 
>the same height.  Based upon five people, the average 
>measurements were (rounded off the the nearest cm):  150 X 36 
>X 15 cm.
>
>18) In an ideal gas, the atoms/molecules do not interact with 
>each other.  While this is clearly not the case, for order-of-
>magnitude calculations this assumption is fairly accurate.
>
>19) Brugioni, Dino and Poirier, Robert.  _The Holocaust 
>Revisited:  A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau 
>Extermination Complex_.  (Washington D.C.:  Central 
>Intelligence Agency).  (c) Feb. 1979,  p 13
>
>20) _"The Good Old Days": The Holocaust as Seen by Its 
>Perpetrators and Bystanders_. ed by Ernst Klee, Willi Dressen,
>and Volker Reiss.  English translation of "Die Scho"ne Zeit".  
>(New York: The Free Press, div. of MacMillan, Inc.)  (c) 1991. 
>pp 252-255.
>
>21) _The Good Old Days_, pp 271-273.
>
>22) Brugioni and Poirier, p11.
>
>23) _Documents on the Holocaust: Selected Sources on the 
>Destruction of the Jews of Germany and Austria, Poland, and 
>the Soviet Union_.  ed. by Yitzhak Arad, Yisrael Gutman, and 
>Abraham Margaliot.  (Jerusalem: Yad Veshem) (c) 1981, pp 358-
>361
>
>24) McVay, p 10.  A GIF of the letter can be obtained via 
>anonymous FTP from Listserv@oneb.alamanac.bc.ca  -- send the 
>command GET GIFS AUDOC001.GIF  .
>
>25) _The Good Old Days_, p 271    
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                    Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca 
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 11 08:09:46 PST 1996
Article: 23339 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:07:20 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <311e058b.1764850@news.pacificnet.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4eo4o3$5p9@zippy.cais.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>	Do the Holocaust perpetuators think Nazi records are valid?
>
>
>I responded:
>
>	Does Mr. Moran think that the Nazis lied to themselves in their
>	own records?
>
>
>In article <311b7589.408257@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	From where and how would you say the Germans would compile any
>	numbers. Could it be they (he) exaggerated or made up a ballpark
>	figure to hieghten the alarm?
>
>
>Since Mr. Moran is fond of legal metaphors, he ought to know that
>what he is doing here is called a "fishing expedition!"
>
>Clearly, Mr. Moran has no reason whatsoever to question the Nazi
>reports, but he engages in this meaningless innuendo because he does
>not like the conclusions drawn from this evidence.  It does not fit
>in with his preconceived prejudices.
>
	Seeing how the census has such a high variable today, taken by
the Jewish community itself, during these days of high communication
and computers, how should we come to believe any census taken by
anyone during the time of WWII? How would the Nazis come to have these
numbers from other nations?

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Let not your lips speak that which is not in your heart.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 11 08:09:47 PST 1996
Article: 23340 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:09:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311e0681.2010859@news.pacificnet.net>
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>> 
>> >Mr. Giwer,
>> >
>> >Very good strategy: when you have nothing intelligent to say resort to
>> >ad hominem attacks.  
>> >
>> 	Now heres a righteous hypocrisy. I would invite anyone to
>> click through "Green" in the threads for the proof.
>
>There you go again, Mr. Moran.  You're accusing Mr. Green of making ad 
>hominem attacks without any evidence beyond a vague "click through the 
>threads" suggestion.  I do not recall Mr. Green making any ad hominem 
>attacks in this thread (or any other), although Mr. Giwer has repeatedly 
>called people who disagree with him "asshole" "dumb shit" "charlatan" and 
>the like.  In the posts that I've read, Mr. Green 
>has quite patiently replied to both Mr. Giwer and to you with what seems 
>to be valid scientific proof, although I will readily admit that I don't 
>know enough about chemistry to check it out.  I would also note that when 
>Mr. Green has posted explanations of the chemistry of HCN, you have, 
>without any apparent proof, dismissed his explanations as "flim-flam." 
>
>That doesn't seem to square with your professed aversion to ad hominem 
>arguments, Mr. Moran.
>
	A word from a ad hominemizer himself.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:49:56 PST 1996
Article: 23426 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311f5eb3.748408@news.pacificnet.net>
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <311b786e.1149525@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>>BTW, are you finally ready to explain why you called the
>>>gas chamber at Auschwitz I "a little room"? Did you
>>>base your opinion on some "Moran arithmetic"?
>
>>        Moran's using the "arithmetic" of the universe comes up with
>>15% or less HCN was availed on to accomplish the alleged purpose. The
>>way to challenge mathematical errors is by mathematical response. You
>>obviously don't have one. Do you think your little barbs a people out
>>here will undo the mathematical connotations. professor?  You better
>>start thinking around for a new document or eye witness account to
>>circumvent the mathematical facts.
>
>
>Heh heh heh.  Can anyone else see a sequel to Tim McCarthy's famous "you 
>obviously know nothing about math" post coming any time soon?

	Go for it.
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:49:57 PST 1996
Article: 23427 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:32 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311f5eb9.755108@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
># Moran's using the "arithmetic" of the universe comes up with
># 15% or less HCN was availed on to accomplish the alleged purpose.
> 
>This is not only wrong, but it is meaningless as well. 

	The professor gives us a scholarly response.
> 
>What is your point? What do you think you prove with 
>your statement above.

	It means, as was pointed out in the original post that Zyklone
B is not an product/cost efficient material for the purpose it is
alleged it was used for.  
> 
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:49:57 PST 1996
Article: 23428 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311f5ebe.759557@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Daniel Keren writes:
>
># [Krema] 5 is finally mentioned towards then end and there were 
># only four at Birkenau therefore the first was being counted.
>
>Is it mentioned in the testimony, or in the comment about the
>testimony? You seem to be saying the same person talked about
>Kremas I-IV and Krema V. But I recall that it is the authors of 
>the book, when commenting on the testimony, who talk about Krema V.
>
>## BTW, are you finally ready to explain why you called the
>## gas chamber at Auschwitz I "a little room"? Did you
>## base your opinion on some "Moran arithmetic"?

	Here the professor goes again. Disagreeing with a mathematical
statement with out a mathematical response. Well, so much for Brown
University standards.

># Have you ever read the internet holocause FAQ?  
>
>No.
>
># The size is in there.  
>
>Then why don't you tell what the size is, instead of wasting
>our time? What's the big deal? A "great scientist" like you
>can't just tell us what the area was? What's your bleeding
>problem?
>
># Would you call it big?  
>
>What? Tell us what the area is, and we can discuss it.
>
># It only appears big if you believe the absurdly large number of 
># people who were supposed to be in it for the first experiment.       
>
>This is meaningless drivel, until you tell us what the area was.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:49:58 PST 1996
Article: 23429 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311f5ec1.762963@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3118be55.726438@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4f58if$158@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >
>> >Uh, what exactly _did_ Mr. Beaulieu write, Moran?
>> >
>> >> Since the HCN is said to have pasting properties, we assume some of it
>> >> is pasted to the bodies of the victims. 
>> >
>> >Who said this? What evidence was supplied as to such "pasting properties?"
>> >
>> >> You mention that it is absorbed into the body and sweat might aid in the 
>> >> process of absorbtion. This makes sense, since it would put the HCN into a 
>> >> liguid solution. 
>> >
>> >Who'sweat, Moran? The sweat of those killed by HCN from the Zyclon-B? You
>> >must remember that HCN kills rather quickly, which makes the ideas of the
>> >corpses having enough HCN in their sweat to matter rather doubtful. (It's
>> >kind of hard for a _corpse_ to pump HCN laden blood to the sweat glands to
>> >be expired, Moran.) Or do you insist that a contact-lethal dose of HCN
>> >remained _after_ the gas-chambers were ventilated? I suppose you have the
>> >proper calculations at hand to support this assumption? 
>> 
>> They sweat, the pasting HCN sticks to their bodies, gets into
>> solution, the sondercommando pick them up, one after another unto
>> thousands, he sweats, the pasted HCN on the bodies solutes into the
>> sondercommando's sweat, saturates his clothes, he goes on. 
>
>You just re-iterated your silly claims of "pasting" as proof that
>"pasting" took place. You just managed to combine a tautology with
>sophistry. This is clear evidence you are much too "clever" for your own
>good. (Or rather much too stupid to know how stupid you really are.) 
>
>> What kind of calculations do you want? 
>
>The ones that demonstrates that HCN in gaseous concentrations found in the
>gas-chambers will "paste" to the corspes in sufficient concentration and
>be absorbed through the skin by somebody handling those corpse in
>suffcient amounts to kill them. _Those_ proper calculations. You know,
>with those things with funny squiggles and numbers and letters from the
>Greek alphabet? Imbecile. 
>
>> >A rather large chain of "ifs," Moran. All presupposed on the "pasting
>> >properties" and concentrations of HCN in the ventilated gas-chambers.
>> >Again, I suppose you have the proper calculations that supports these
>> >assumptions ready to share with us? 
>> 
>>         "Proper calculations"?
>
>See above. Moron.
>
>> >> Who knows. Maybe a deus ex machina document or some eye witness
>> >> testimony will pop up to show that the sondercommandos all wore rubber
>> >> suits.
>> >
>> >And who knows, maybe one will "pop up" relating that the Sonderkommado
>> >often used ropes to haul the corpses?  
>> >
>> I'd like to see the this explained. Go ahead, this should be
>> good. Anyway, thanks for the eventual endorsement of my points. 
>
>Only a person evidences a tautology as "proof" of his argument would say
>this. In other words a _real_ stoooopid person. You certainaly fit the
>description, Moran. I suppose if you were ate by a bear and shit off a
>cliff you'd say "that'll show _him_!" 
>
>> Hows this you say? Well I raised the point of how the sondercommando would
>> most likely get himself covered with the toxic substance and here you
>> are saying he used ropes. 
>
>See above regarding being shit off a cliff.
>
>
>I'm vexed by assholes! :::sigh:::: 










>Mark - wrenching my garments and gnashing my teeth I respond with dignity.












>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:49:59 PST 1996
Article: 23430 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:45 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311f5ec7.768345@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>
># If, for the Krema 1, someone say that it was illogical 
># to evacuate the gas through the roof because there was a SS
># hospital just beside, than I consider that as a serious
># argument. 
>
>It's a stupid argument, however. This is because we know
>HCN was used in that gas chamber, because there are still
>cyanide compounds on its walls. This proves that any
>problems which ventilation may have caused were solved
>by the SS experts, who obviously knew much more about
>HCN than our wacky "revisionists".
>
	"This proves"? You offered no proof whatsoever.

># If now we have to figure a single disenfection,
># than it was possible and require to evacuate the upper
># floors of this hospital and to move peoples on the first
># floor when the evacuation of the gas began. 
>
>1) Who says that the upper floors needed to be evacuated?
>   Do you have any evidence whatsoever? How about just
>   closing the windows?
>
>2) Who says the amount of cyanide compounds in the walls 
>   could have been the result of a "single disenfection"?
>
># For the bodies which are 'hosed down', perhaps you could 
># explain that: if memory deserve, 
>
>"If memory serves" is not good enough.

	Heres another deus ex machina variable. Some times HCN has
"pasting" properties and sometimes it doesn't, depending on whether or
not it facilitates the Holocaust story.

>
># a single drain in the center of krema 2, small, and 500 bodies 
># over a 200 meters surface.
># How many times this drain was plugged up by a leg, a chest,
># how could it be possible to clear up this one in advance
># before to hose down if it was unaccesible, 
>
>How about sending a sonderkommando man to remove whatever
>was blocking the drain?
>
># how could the germans tolerate the innundation of the rooms 
># beside with water full of fetal matter, urine if the drain was 
># obstruct,
>
>And if it wasn't "obstruct"?
>
># (BTW, F. Muller do not talk about the clearing of the drain
># in advance in his testimony).
>
>Which, of course, doesn't prove it didn't take place. 
>
>All the "technical problems associated with the gassings" that
>these "revisionist" kooks bring up, have solutions which are
>very simple and easy to implement. They really expect people
>to believe that Germany, a country that built jet planes,
>rockets, and submarines, could not solve these problems. This
>is simply amazing.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:49:59 PST 1996
Article: 23431 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:55 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311f5ed1.778177@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>At Birkenau, there were two methods of introducing the Zyklon. At
>>>Kremas II and III, it was poured through roof vents, in IV and V,
>>>through vents in the upper walls.
>>>
>>>As I have just asked in response to another post, are the roofs of
>>>both Kremas II and III still sufficiently intact to see whether there
>>>were heloes for the roof vents?
>
>>>
>>	'Oh look, some windows in the side of building. They must have
>>been for introducing poisonous gas.' 
>
>Not quite, Mr. Moran. The guards themselves testified at trial to the
>various introduction methods, and various survivors' accounts indicate
>the same thing.
>
>But it should be obvious that different introduction methods would be
>used. Kremas II and III had below-ground gas chambers; Kremas IV and V
>had them above ground.

	Yea the Harmon report states the Kremas II and III were built
under ground so the SS could get on the roof to introduce the gas even
though it would require the transport of thousands of bodies up stairs
or by electric elevator. Evidentally the Germans figured out it was
easier to build them above ground and putting windows - ah er,
introduction slots on the walls so they wouldn't have to go onto the
roof?
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:00 PST 1996
Article: 23432 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom "Revisionist Scientist" Moran (Re: "..they lived right inside )
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:59 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>	First of all professor, could you point out where I ever said
>>>>it would be "impossible" to use HCN anywhere?
>>>
>>>It is a strong implication of your remarks that Zyklon B is impossible
>>>to use anywhere. The lethal dose for human being for five minutes of
>>>exposure is 300 ppm. The lethal dose for lice is 16000 ppm with a
>>>recommended exposure of 24 hours.
>>>
>>	Where do you get your 16000 ppms from?
>
>The manufacturer's instructions. Now, for the third time, answer the
>question:
>
>If it was impossibly dangerous to use Zyklon B in a gas chamber at
>such low concentrations why was it safe to use in the delousing
>chambers at higher concentrations?
>
	Did I say it was "impossibly dangerous" someplace? I see it
as something that could have been sold as a household product, sort of
like mothballs or snail and slug pellets, just more dangerous.
	I would say if someone was locked up in a closet with a
certain quantity of mothballs they would succumb. 
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:01 PST 1996
Article: 23433 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom "Revisionist Scientist" Moran (Re: "..they lived right inside )
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:38:03 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3118bf01.898188@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >Moran also claimed that it would have been impossible to use
>> >HCN gas in the Krema I gas chamber, because it would endanger
>> >the SS living nearby, bla-bla.
>> 
>>         "Bla-bla"? We're talking about the highly toxic Zyklone B
>> being released right in the vicinity of the Gestapo Office, The SS
>> Hospital and the Commodants Office are we. 
>
>Yes, "Bla-bla!" You've yet to demonstrate that the concentrations of HCN
>on the hot exhaust plume of Krema I's 30 ft. tall smokestack were highly
>toxic _if_ it were to reach the surrounding buildings. (Hint: see Grahams'
>Law and Fick's Laws. And don't forget to factor in atmospheric turbulence
>and the boundry layer with the ground.) 
>
>One thing about hot air is that it has a lesser density than cooler air
>and therefore rises in accordance with Archimedes' principle. This can be
>demonstrated by calculating the buoyant force on the volume of hot air
>released:
>
> F = mg 
>
>Where F is the bouyant force in newtons, m is the mass of the cold air in
>kg/cu m displaced by the hot air, and g is the gravitational acceleration
>(9.8 m/sec per sec). 
>
>Of course, when you determine how much cold air is is actually displaced
>you need to figure in the density of the hot air doing the displacing and
>find its mass and take the difference. The tricky part involves the Ideal
>Gas Law and the Kinetic Theory of Gases and knowing the temperature of the
>hot air, and iterating this over time to take into account the cooling of
>the hot air. (And don't forget diffusion! Graham's Law and Fick's Laws
>again!) Minor details, I'm sure for the math wiz who so impressively
>calulated how many trees were planted in Israel....
>
>Seeing as _you_ are the one asserting that the HCN ladedn hot exhaust from
>the smokestack poses a problem, Granite Boy, I'll let _you_ do the
>calulations.
>
>Or you could simply look at a smokestack and see that smoke rises. Then
>you might realize why the SS kept gassing people in Krema I without posing
>a problem to the people in the surrounding buildings: there was NO
>problem.

	Deus ex machina - the ventilation system was attached to the
smoke stack. Regardless, it would be idiotic to vent poisonous gases
in the vicinity of the SS hospital, the Gastapo office, the
commodant's office and the administration building and all the other
buildings right there in proximity.  It is just idiotic to assert that
a killing system like the one alleged would be placed right in the
midst of all this complex. 
	AS far as all your chutzpah with the figures, this would all
depend on barometric pressure, wind velocity, wind direction,
temperature, the amount of heat at the source for any particular day.
It is not feasible to consider. You do the figuring.


>> >He forgot however, that even "revisionists" admit there are
>> >cyanide traces on the walls of this gas chamber, proving
>> >beyond doubt Zyklon-B was indeed used in it.
>>  
>> You say that even revisionists admit to traces? But do they
>> agree with the idea it was a gas chamber? Do they theorize on any
>> traces ever coming from fumigation of the premises? Rubbing off of
>> peoples clothes? I would think everyone had their clothes fumigated,
>> even the SS. I would even imagine that everyone was walking around
>> with traces of HCN on them.
>
>Interesting. So you admit the amounts of HCN used in delousing (16,000 ppm
>vs. 300 ppm for homicidal gassing) posed no hazards? Uh, Granite Boy, you
>just shot yourself in the foot. Owwww....
>
>> >This is but one proof Moran has no idea what he's talking
>> >about. His knowledge of science is zero and his capacity
>> >for rational analysis is smaller.
>> 
>> At least I had enough sense to figure out that only 15% or
>> less Zyklone B would be actually availed upon, and the other 85% or
>> more was wasted....
>
>But you were much too stupid to realize it didn't matter in the slightest,
>as the SS couls requisition as much Zyclon-B as they needed for homicidal
>gassings. 

	They could?
>
>> ....leftover, lingering to complicate the ensuing
>> functions of ventilation....
>
>How so? Given that the gas-chamber (morgue) in Krema I was 17m long; 4.5m
>wide; and 3m (?) tall, this would mean a volume of approximately 234 cu m.
>[1]. Taking into account that the ventilation system for the crematorium
>building was capable of evacuating 6,000 cu m of air per hour, and
>assumimg that the deaeration process evacuated the morgue and not the rest
>of the crematorium building (the autopsy room was equiped with shuttered
>air-intake grills) [2], this would imply that the morgue could be
>_completely_ deaerated in 2.34 minutes. The SS ventilated much longer than
>that to ensure the gas-chamber's air was replaced several times. Then
>there's the issue of the Sonderkommando wearing gas masks....
>
>> ...and unloading the thousands of bodies. I take it those in the
>cremation section and all the guards were wearing gas masks too? 
>
>Why? once the Zyclon-B was spent and the corspes removed and the
>gas-chamber was completely ventilated they didn't need gas masks. The
>cremation process didn't start until after the corspes were removed and
>"processed" for valuables. Not to mention the furnace hall _also_ had a
>ventilation system of its own. 
>
>> >Thus, it is hardly a surprise that Moran is becoming a "leading
>> >revisionist scholar".
>> 
>>         Thank you for your scholarly treatment.
>
>As usual, the sarcasm is lost on such a putz as you. Only you, Moran,
>would say "thank you" when alluded to being a pompus idiot. 
>
	Thank you again - for the example.

>
>Mark
>
>
>1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.158
>
>2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; pp.193-195
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:02 PST 1996
Article: 23434 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:38:09 GMT
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <311b7fcd.3036418@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>                The Pine Barrens of N.J. get roughly the same amount
>>of rain fall as the rest of the "Garden State" which is way more than
>>what Israel where the Jews made the "desert bloom".  The only thing
>>that makes the Pine Barrens a bit of a problem to develope for any
>>agriculture is that it is sandy. The millions of trees that grow there
>>have been there for millennia by natural growth.
>
>
>I've never been to the Pine Barrens.  Where are the photos?
>
>Millions of trees?  Oh come on.  How can a state composed of large 
>population centers and industrial plants right next to a huge metropolitan 
>center *possibly* have enough room for millions of trees?  The residents of 
>New Jersey would have to have enourmously long arms to swing from one to the 
>next because they would be packed so tightly.
>
>Did I ask for the photos yet?

	Get a book on New Jersey. Look up Pine Barrens. Find a picture
of just a small area. Then find the chart that delineates the area.
Visibility in the Pine Barrens is barely 100 feet abscurred by the
trunks of the trees alone. It will take you 40 minutes driving east
west or vice versa at 60 miles and hour to make it through and about
the same north south. This is just in the concentration of it alone.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@Unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:02 PST 1996
Article: 23435 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:38:13 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> schultr@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>> 
>> >It seems, Mr. Moran, that you have forgotten that I already posted my
>> >source: _The 1996 World Almanac and Book of Facts_, which has a listing
>> >of "Top Movies of 1994," and reports in that list that (a) Schindler's
>> >List grossed $91.1 million dollars in 1994 and (b) it had been released
>> >in 1993, and the amount that it grossed in 1993 was not included in the
>> >total listed in part (a).
>> >
>> >As I asked at the time -- what reason do you have do dispute the figures
>> >in this source?  Or is the World Almanac part of the JOOOSH conspiracy?
>> >
>> 	I used to know a guy who worked for Dunn and Bradstreet and
>> his job was to attain information from companies that were given
>> credit ratings by this high and mighty establishment authority and
>> compiler. He said he did all his work over the phone, to any
>> particular company, who would give the information that would result
>> in their own credit rating. He used to mock the situation and knew of
>> many cases were it turned out not to be true.
>> 	Now how do you think your World Almanac gets it's information?
>
>By asking this question, are you asserting that the _World Almanac_ 
>falsified this information? I beleive Mr. Schultz has stated elsewhere 
>that the _WA_ got its figures from _Variety_, the publication of record 
>for the entertainment industry.  Is it also your assertion that _Variety_ 
>falsified its information on _Schindler's List_?  What proof do you have 
>of this assertion, if indeed that is what you are claiming?
>
>> Considering the amount of coverage the movie got in the papers I read,
>> NY, LA Times, and a couple of others, there isn't one article that
>> features it's popularity in the US. 
>
>Are you saying that if you didn't read about something, it didn't happen? 
>I would suggest that you check out microfilms of the _LA Times_ for the 
>period of Dec. 15 1993, to around the end of May 1994: Every Tuesday, the 
>paper's business section includes a "Company Town" report including a 
>chart of the Top 10 films of the previous weekend, including gross ticket 
>sales and number of screens nationwide.  _Schindler's List_ is included in 
>that chart every week during that period (22 weeks).  Even in its last 
>weekend in the top 10, it was playing on 1,010 screens nationwide (_LA 
>Times_, May 17, p. D4).  
>
>> The only article I saw that does
>> freature comment on attendance was the one that cited low attendance
>> in Europe, theorizing on the cause due to it being in black and white
>> and three hours long. (See relevant post yet untitled. You'll
>> recognize it.)  
>
>I'm looking forward to this.  You WILL be so kind as to include a full 
>citation, including title, date, and page numbers, won't you? 
>
>> 	How did it do in Israel?
>
>I seem to recall reading that it did as well there as it did in North 
>America and Europe; I'll try to get some data on that.
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>

		sHINDLER'S LIST WAS A FLOP. SPLAT.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:03 PST 1996
Article: 23443 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dear Jewish Empire/Conglomerate/Organization,
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:51:12 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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hz729@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Tony Jung) wrote:

>
>
>HGXZOORGHVSHURHVRELNVILNMRHVMVXHVWFMVILNMRGHZXDZSHZMRGWVNZMHHVIGXZMZVVHLG
>GMZDR
>To The Powers That Be,
>   I think I've given you enough time. 
>I was watching 'Saturday Night Live' last night and the Jews used this 
>one segment to "advertise" that the Holocaust was a reality - very 
>cleverly done (so I know you control the media). I know that you have the 
>connections to make my request a reality (I talked to an actor on the Net 
>who told me that if you were Jewish, you had more of a chance to get the 
>opportunities to play parts in movies). I'm just one individual among quite 
>a few (who stands in awe of your organization and past accomplishments, and 
>has the insight to look beyond the surface) asking as a request.
>   Here is the "deal". If you fulfill my request, I promise not to post
>any more negative things about you...ever. I know you, and I know that if I
>ever broke my promise, you would have an incentive to make me have an 
>"accident". But consider that I gave the following texts to some of my 
>friends (who thought it was a flakey favor, but promised me they'd post it 
>for a long time if I croaked). 
>
>   Israel controls the fashion, banking (my friend once told me that 
>his wife worked at a bank, and that in the back room were recent Russian 
>Jewish immigrants who couldn't speak a word of English who were hired), 
>media (I saw on the news how people in the media were afraid of 
>criticizing Israel for fear of losing their jobs; a Hollywood bar-mitzpah), 
>legal council, jewlry, and diamond industries. 
>   With one of the largest lobbies in the U.S. (and Jews in the Senate), 
>they also dominate Washington politics (I think it was JFK who pleaded 
>with the Jews to stop pressuring Congress into increasing the level of 
>aid to Israel). Time and time again, the U.S. has given into the interests 
>of Israel (MFN status, loans, nuclear proliferation treaty, etc.). Israel 
>has been able to do what it wills (i.e., have a plane crash and only Arafat 
>survive, let the Russians catch an American spy in a 3-way trade, let that 
>guy escape from Dimona to tell the world, transport Ethiopian Jews, kidnap 
>that one PLO leader, steal plutonium and uranium from Bulgaria? and the 
>U.S., kill Demanjuk's lawyer and Robert Maxwell (this one was so obvious 
>that it was a friend who told me about it), etc.). 
>   Now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and support another theory.
>   I believe that China (even with its blatant human rights violations) 
>was given MFN status because:
>   1. They were supplying weapons to Syria, and Israel wanted to provide 
>an incentive (withdraw of MFN status) for them to stop.
>   2. China has nuclear weapons.
>   3. The U.S. wanted to somewhat "control" China.
>   The very last thing the Israelis want are stronger enemies on its 
>border. I remember once when the former Soviet Union needed help, and 
>Israel quickly supplied provisions and dealt with a hijack situation 
>responsibly. 

	The Jews are playing two ends for their interest in China.
They have bought the access to China by selling them U.S. military
technology. Now we are seeing articles on belligerency between China
and the U.S. Just when you think U.S. support for the Jewsih state has
hit a new height of rediculousness, a new one pops up.

>
>P.S.#1 I don't work for anyone (as a matter of fact, I'm presently job-
>seeking). If you e-mail me, I'll tell you whatever you want to know.
>P.S.#2 If you see other anon-posts, it is because I did it a long time ago
>using slow Anon-server.
>P.S.#3 Now...I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that if you reply, 
>you will expose yourself, and my theory will be validated. Or you'll think 
>that if you fulfill my request, the same will result. This is 
>understandable. I'd do the same thing...nothing. I think you think very 
>much like me. Now, there is no need to waste resources on me. I am scared
>of you (based on some books I've read), but I also know that you are 
>logical, systematic, and rational.   :) Don't hurt me! 
>P.S.#4 Just consider my request. Thanks.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:04 PST 1996
Article: 23448 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Simple math for simple minds (was Re: References)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:15:37 GMT
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	In fact, as a matter of showing fair accomodation, just go
>: ahead and use the full area of Israel in your calculations and not use
>: the above as extenuating factors.
>
>Actually, Keith Morrison already *did* use the full area of Israel, but
>for the math-impaired, here it is again:
>
>area per tree: 25 sq. ft. (= 10 ft. between trees)

	Er, doesn't 10 feet between trees come out to 10x10? Isn't
this 100 square feet? Wouldn't 10x10 = 25 sq. feet constitute
"math-impaired"?
	Of course we have that culminating equation for "chutzpah", 
                2 + 2 = 3 and/or 5, but not 4. 

>tress/square mile: 1.115 million
>square miles needed to plant 200,000,000 trees: 179 (=200000000/1115000)
179? One hundred and seventy nine? What is all this? 
>area of Israel (approximate):  8000 square miles
>amount of Israel left after planting 200,000,000 trees: 7800 square miles
>
>What exactly is the problem here?  Other than the obvious one, of course.

	WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS?
200,000,000 in an area of 8000 square miles is 25,000 per sq. mile.
Eliminating severe desert area, most of Israel, "the Jews made the
desert bloom", argricultural lands, populated areas, roads and coast
line, we could say only 4000 sq. miles are available = 50,000 trees
per sq. mile. This is even accomodating in itself.
	WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS?


---
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"You don't even have a clue as to which clue you're missing." -- Miss Manners



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:04 PST 1996
Article: 23452 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RICH GREEN INCOMPETENT? (was Re: CREMATORY RATES AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS SAYS EXPERT)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:24:36 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>	It means you studied chemistry under that incompetant at Stanford.
>
>
>Do you mean Richard Green?

	Incompetance can place in even the highest of institutions.
Take the case of the nitwit who wrote "Genesis and the Big Bang" who
graduated from MIT with a degree in physics. His book written with the
aid of three rabbis in Israel asserts that everything that has been
discovered in physics can be found in the book. 

>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:05 PST 1996
Article: 23453 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos Deny the Myth
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:27:09 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <311f69f1.3626478@news.pacificnet.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <4fk4g4$d52@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com said:
>
>>>Sigh. Let me put it to you in an example. If you have a picture of
>>>people walking on the rail platform at Birkenau with the men's camp in
>>>the background, and the people are facing to the left, then they are
>>>headed towards Kremas II and III because the men's camp is to the
>>>north of the platform, and the Kremas are to the west.
>
>>	Lets see, people are walking on a platform and the men's camp is in the
>>background therefore they are are headed towards the Kremas.  I would have
>>thought that if they were facing left that would mean that is the
>>direction towards the steps to get down from the platform.  
>
>This is just typical of you.  You cannot be this stupid, so it has to be
>deliberate.  Mr. Morris said that the people were on the platform facing
>left, with the men's camp in the background.  Since it is a historical fact
>that the men's camp was to the north of the platform, and the Kremas were to
>the west, they must have been going in the direction of the Kremas.  A
>six-year old could figure this out, so I am sure you can as well.  It is
>obvious you don't want to because it interferes with your racialist and
>hate-filled agenda.
>
	Now theres some real evidence. They were facing this way or
that. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

>The rest of your post is a transparent attempt by you to get Mr. Morris to
>do your research for you, which you will then simply dismiss with a wave of
>your hand.  I hope he tells you to go fuck yourself.
>
>You, sir, are a fraud.
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                                      



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 11:50:06 PST 1996
Article: 23454 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:28:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <311cd464.9054880@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said:
>
>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>>>	Your the one who seems to have all the heavy duty knowledge. Why don't
>>>>you do a treatment on it. Think of some more variables while your at it.
>>>>Go ahead, its your thing. I'll go along with the "pasting", period. You
>>>>give us the details.
>>>
>>>Why should Mr. Green do *your* work?  You are the one making the
>>>allegations.  Why don't you back them up?  (We know why, don't we folks?)
>>>
>>	"We"? This thread is self evident, regardless of what Mc Fee wants to
>>believe.
>
>OK, Tom, I'll make it easy for you.  *You* are the one making allegations. 
>Therefore, *you* are the one who should back them up.  You are trying to get
>others to do your research for you, and then you will respond with some
>puerile comment like, "It's flim-flam".
>
>What I meant by "We know why, don't we folks?", was that you don't back up
>your claims because you can't.
>                                                                                               
	"We"? Whose "we"?
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>        



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:47 PST 1996
Article: 23426 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:26 GMT
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Message-ID: <311f5eb3.748408@news.pacificnet.net>
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <311b786e.1149525@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>>BTW, are you finally ready to explain why you called the
>>>gas chamber at Auschwitz I "a little room"? Did you
>>>base your opinion on some "Moran arithmetic"?
>
>>        Moran's using the "arithmetic" of the universe comes up with
>>15% or less HCN was availed on to accomplish the alleged purpose. The
>>way to challenge mathematical errors is by mathematical response. You
>>obviously don't have one. Do you think your little barbs a people out
>>here will undo the mathematical connotations. professor?  You better
>>start thinking around for a new document or eye witness account to
>>circumvent the mathematical facts.
>
>
>Heh heh heh.  Can anyone else see a sequel to Tim McCarthy's famous "you 
>obviously know nothing about math" post coming any time soon?

	Go for it.
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:48 PST 1996
Article: 23427 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:32 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
># Moran's using the "arithmetic" of the universe comes up with
># 15% or less HCN was availed on to accomplish the alleged purpose.
> 
>This is not only wrong, but it is meaningless as well. 

	The professor gives us a scholarly response.
> 
>What is your point? What do you think you prove with 
>your statement above.

	It means, as was pointed out in the original post that Zyklone
B is not an product/cost efficient material for the purpose it is
alleged it was used for.  
> 
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:49 PST 1996
Article: 23428 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <311f5ebe.759557@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># Daniel Keren writes:
>
># [Krema] 5 is finally mentioned towards then end and there were 
># only four at Birkenau therefore the first was being counted.
>
>Is it mentioned in the testimony, or in the comment about the
>testimony? You seem to be saying the same person talked about
>Kremas I-IV and Krema V. But I recall that it is the authors of 
>the book, when commenting on the testimony, who talk about Krema V.
>
>## BTW, are you finally ready to explain why you called the
>## gas chamber at Auschwitz I "a little room"? Did you
>## base your opinion on some "Moran arithmetic"?

	Here the professor goes again. Disagreeing with a mathematical
statement with out a mathematical response. Well, so much for Brown
University standards.

># Have you ever read the internet holocause FAQ?  
>
>No.
>
># The size is in there.  
>
>Then why don't you tell what the size is, instead of wasting
>our time? What's the big deal? A "great scientist" like you
>can't just tell us what the area was? What's your bleeding
>problem?
>
># Would you call it big?  
>
>What? Tell us what the area is, and we can discuss it.
>
># It only appears big if you believe the absurdly large number of 
># people who were supposed to be in it for the first experiment.       
>
>This is meaningless drivel, until you tell us what the area was.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:49 PST 1996
Article: 23429 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <311f5ec1.762963@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3118be55.726438@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4f58if$158@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >
>> >Uh, what exactly _did_ Mr. Beaulieu write, Moran?
>> >
>> >> Since the HCN is said to have pasting properties, we assume some of it
>> >> is pasted to the bodies of the victims. 
>> >
>> >Who said this? What evidence was supplied as to such "pasting properties?"
>> >
>> >> You mention that it is absorbed into the body and sweat might aid in the 
>> >> process of absorbtion. This makes sense, since it would put the HCN into a 
>> >> liguid solution. 
>> >
>> >Who'sweat, Moran? The sweat of those killed by HCN from the Zyclon-B? You
>> >must remember that HCN kills rather quickly, which makes the ideas of the
>> >corpses having enough HCN in their sweat to matter rather doubtful. (It's
>> >kind of hard for a _corpse_ to pump HCN laden blood to the sweat glands to
>> >be expired, Moran.) Or do you insist that a contact-lethal dose of HCN
>> >remained _after_ the gas-chambers were ventilated? I suppose you have the
>> >proper calculations at hand to support this assumption? 
>> 
>> They sweat, the pasting HCN sticks to their bodies, gets into
>> solution, the sondercommando pick them up, one after another unto
>> thousands, he sweats, the pasted HCN on the bodies solutes into the
>> sondercommando's sweat, saturates his clothes, he goes on. 
>
>You just re-iterated your silly claims of "pasting" as proof that
>"pasting" took place. You just managed to combine a tautology with
>sophistry. This is clear evidence you are much too "clever" for your own
>good. (Or rather much too stupid to know how stupid you really are.) 
>
>> What kind of calculations do you want? 
>
>The ones that demonstrates that HCN in gaseous concentrations found in the
>gas-chambers will "paste" to the corspes in sufficient concentration and
>be absorbed through the skin by somebody handling those corpse in
>suffcient amounts to kill them. _Those_ proper calculations. You know,
>with those things with funny squiggles and numbers and letters from the
>Greek alphabet? Imbecile. 
>
>> >A rather large chain of "ifs," Moran. All presupposed on the "pasting
>> >properties" and concentrations of HCN in the ventilated gas-chambers.
>> >Again, I suppose you have the proper calculations that supports these
>> >assumptions ready to share with us? 
>> 
>>         "Proper calculations"?
>
>See above. Moron.
>
>> >> Who knows. Maybe a deus ex machina document or some eye witness
>> >> testimony will pop up to show that the sondercommandos all wore rubber
>> >> suits.
>> >
>> >And who knows, maybe one will "pop up" relating that the Sonderkommado
>> >often used ropes to haul the corpses?  
>> >
>> I'd like to see the this explained. Go ahead, this should be
>> good. Anyway, thanks for the eventual endorsement of my points. 
>
>Only a person evidences a tautology as "proof" of his argument would say
>this. In other words a _real_ stoooopid person. You certainaly fit the
>description, Moran. I suppose if you were ate by a bear and shit off a
>cliff you'd say "that'll show _him_!" 
>
>> Hows this you say? Well I raised the point of how the sondercommando would
>> most likely get himself covered with the toxic substance and here you
>> are saying he used ropes. 
>
>See above regarding being shit off a cliff.
>
>
>I'm vexed by assholes! :::sigh:::: 










>Mark - wrenching my garments and gnashing my teeth I respond with dignity.












>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:50 PST 1996
Article: 23430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:45 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <311f5ec7.768345@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>
># If, for the Krema 1, someone say that it was illogical 
># to evacuate the gas through the roof because there was a SS
># hospital just beside, than I consider that as a serious
># argument. 
>
>It's a stupid argument, however. This is because we know
>HCN was used in that gas chamber, because there are still
>cyanide compounds on its walls. This proves that any
>problems which ventilation may have caused were solved
>by the SS experts, who obviously knew much more about
>HCN than our wacky "revisionists".
>
	"This proves"? You offered no proof whatsoever.

># If now we have to figure a single disenfection,
># than it was possible and require to evacuate the upper
># floors of this hospital and to move peoples on the first
># floor when the evacuation of the gas began. 
>
>1) Who says that the upper floors needed to be evacuated?
>   Do you have any evidence whatsoever? How about just
>   closing the windows?
>
>2) Who says the amount of cyanide compounds in the walls 
>   could have been the result of a "single disenfection"?
>
># For the bodies which are 'hosed down', perhaps you could 
># explain that: if memory deserve, 
>
>"If memory serves" is not good enough.

	Heres another deus ex machina variable. Some times HCN has
"pasting" properties and sometimes it doesn't, depending on whether or
not it facilitates the Holocaust story.

>
># a single drain in the center of krema 2, small, and 500 bodies 
># over a 200 meters surface.
># How many times this drain was plugged up by a leg, a chest,
># how could it be possible to clear up this one in advance
># before to hose down if it was unaccesible, 
>
>How about sending a sonderkommando man to remove whatever
>was blocking the drain?
>
># how could the germans tolerate the innundation of the rooms 
># beside with water full of fetal matter, urine if the drain was 
># obstruct,
>
>And if it wasn't "obstruct"?
>
># (BTW, F. Muller do not talk about the clearing of the drain
># in advance in his testimony).
>
>Which, of course, doesn't prove it didn't take place. 
>
>All the "technical problems associated with the gassings" that
>these "revisionist" kooks bring up, have solutions which are
>very simple and easy to implement. They really expect people
>to believe that Germany, a country that built jet planes,
>rockets, and submarines, could not solve these problems. This
>is simply amazing.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:51 PST 1996
Article: 23431 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:55 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <311f5ed1.778177@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>At Birkenau, there were two methods of introducing the Zyklon. At
>>>Kremas II and III, it was poured through roof vents, in IV and V,
>>>through vents in the upper walls.
>>>
>>>As I have just asked in response to another post, are the roofs of
>>>both Kremas II and III still sufficiently intact to see whether there
>>>were heloes for the roof vents?
>
>>>
>>	'Oh look, some windows in the side of building. They must have
>>been for introducing poisonous gas.' 
>
>Not quite, Mr. Moran. The guards themselves testified at trial to the
>various introduction methods, and various survivors' accounts indicate
>the same thing.
>
>But it should be obvious that different introduction methods would be
>used. Kremas II and III had below-ground gas chambers; Kremas IV and V
>had them above ground.

	Yea the Harmon report states the Kremas II and III were built
under ground so the SS could get on the roof to introduce the gas even
though it would require the transport of thousands of bodies up stairs
or by electric elevator. Evidentally the Germans figured out it was
easier to build them above ground and putting windows - ah er,
introduction slots on the walls so they wouldn't have to go onto the
roof?
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:51 PST 1996
Article: 23432 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom "Revisionist Scientist" Moran (Re: "..they lived right inside )
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:37:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>	First of all professor, could you point out where I ever said
>>>>it would be "impossible" to use HCN anywhere?
>>>
>>>It is a strong implication of your remarks that Zyklon B is impossible
>>>to use anywhere. The lethal dose for human being for five minutes of
>>>exposure is 300 ppm. The lethal dose for lice is 16000 ppm with a
>>>recommended exposure of 24 hours.
>>>
>>	Where do you get your 16000 ppms from?
>
>The manufacturer's instructions. Now, for the third time, answer the
>question:
>
>If it was impossibly dangerous to use Zyklon B in a gas chamber at
>such low concentrations why was it safe to use in the delousing
>chambers at higher concentrations?
>
	Did I say it was "impossibly dangerous" someplace? I see it
as something that could have been sold as a household product, sort of
like mothballs or snail and slug pellets, just more dangerous.
	I would say if someone was locked up in a closet with a
certain quantity of mothballs they would succumb. 
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:52 PST 1996
Article: 23433 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom "Revisionist Scientist" Moran (Re: "..they lived right inside )
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:38:03 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3118bf01.898188@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >Moran also claimed that it would have been impossible to use
>> >HCN gas in the Krema I gas chamber, because it would endanger
>> >the SS living nearby, bla-bla.
>> 
>>         "Bla-bla"? We're talking about the highly toxic Zyklone B
>> being released right in the vicinity of the Gestapo Office, The SS
>> Hospital and the Commodants Office are we. 
>
>Yes, "Bla-bla!" You've yet to demonstrate that the concentrations of HCN
>on the hot exhaust plume of Krema I's 30 ft. tall smokestack were highly
>toxic _if_ it were to reach the surrounding buildings. (Hint: see Grahams'
>Law and Fick's Laws. And don't forget to factor in atmospheric turbulence
>and the boundry layer with the ground.) 
>
>One thing about hot air is that it has a lesser density than cooler air
>and therefore rises in accordance with Archimedes' principle. This can be
>demonstrated by calculating the buoyant force on the volume of hot air
>released:
>
> F = mg 
>
>Where F is the bouyant force in newtons, m is the mass of the cold air in
>kg/cu m displaced by the hot air, and g is the gravitational acceleration
>(9.8 m/sec per sec). 
>
>Of course, when you determine how much cold air is is actually displaced
>you need to figure in the density of the hot air doing the displacing and
>find its mass and take the difference. The tricky part involves the Ideal
>Gas Law and the Kinetic Theory of Gases and knowing the temperature of the
>hot air, and iterating this over time to take into account the cooling of
>the hot air. (And don't forget diffusion! Graham's Law and Fick's Laws
>again!) Minor details, I'm sure for the math wiz who so impressively
>calulated how many trees were planted in Israel....
>
>Seeing as _you_ are the one asserting that the HCN ladedn hot exhaust from
>the smokestack poses a problem, Granite Boy, I'll let _you_ do the
>calulations.
>
>Or you could simply look at a smokestack and see that smoke rises. Then
>you might realize why the SS kept gassing people in Krema I without posing
>a problem to the people in the surrounding buildings: there was NO
>problem.

	Deus ex machina - the ventilation system was attached to the
smoke stack. Regardless, it would be idiotic to vent poisonous gases
in the vicinity of the SS hospital, the Gastapo office, the
commodant's office and the administration building and all the other
buildings right there in proximity.  It is just idiotic to assert that
a killing system like the one alleged would be placed right in the
midst of all this complex. 
	AS far as all your chutzpah with the figures, this would all
depend on barometric pressure, wind velocity, wind direction,
temperature, the amount of heat at the source for any particular day.
It is not feasible to consider. You do the figuring.


>> >He forgot however, that even "revisionists" admit there are
>> >cyanide traces on the walls of this gas chamber, proving
>> >beyond doubt Zyklon-B was indeed used in it.
>>  
>> You say that even revisionists admit to traces? But do they
>> agree with the idea it was a gas chamber? Do they theorize on any
>> traces ever coming from fumigation of the premises? Rubbing off of
>> peoples clothes? I would think everyone had their clothes fumigated,
>> even the SS. I would even imagine that everyone was walking around
>> with traces of HCN on them.
>
>Interesting. So you admit the amounts of HCN used in delousing (16,000 ppm
>vs. 300 ppm for homicidal gassing) posed no hazards? Uh, Granite Boy, you
>just shot yourself in the foot. Owwww....
>
>> >This is but one proof Moran has no idea what he's talking
>> >about. His knowledge of science is zero and his capacity
>> >for rational analysis is smaller.
>> 
>> At least I had enough sense to figure out that only 15% or
>> less Zyklone B would be actually availed upon, and the other 85% or
>> more was wasted....
>
>But you were much too stupid to realize it didn't matter in the slightest,
>as the SS couls requisition as much Zyclon-B as they needed for homicidal
>gassings. 

	They could?
>
>> ....leftover, lingering to complicate the ensuing
>> functions of ventilation....
>
>How so? Given that the gas-chamber (morgue) in Krema I was 17m long; 4.5m
>wide; and 3m (?) tall, this would mean a volume of approximately 234 cu m.
>[1]. Taking into account that the ventilation system for the crematorium
>building was capable of evacuating 6,000 cu m of air per hour, and
>assumimg that the deaeration process evacuated the morgue and not the rest
>of the crematorium building (the autopsy room was equiped with shuttered
>air-intake grills) [2], this would imply that the morgue could be
>_completely_ deaerated in 2.34 minutes. The SS ventilated much longer than
>that to ensure the gas-chamber's air was replaced several times. Then
>there's the issue of the Sonderkommando wearing gas masks....
>
>> ...and unloading the thousands of bodies. I take it those in the
>cremation section and all the guards were wearing gas masks too? 
>
>Why? once the Zyclon-B was spent and the corspes removed and the
>gas-chamber was completely ventilated they didn't need gas masks. The
>cremation process didn't start until after the corspes were removed and
>"processed" for valuables. Not to mention the furnace hall _also_ had a
>ventilation system of its own. 
>
>> >Thus, it is hardly a surprise that Moran is becoming a "leading
>> >revisionist scholar".
>> 
>>         Thank you for your scholarly treatment.
>
>As usual, the sarcasm is lost on such a putz as you. Only you, Moran,
>would say "thank you" when alluded to being a pompus idiot. 
>
	Thank you again - for the example.

>
>Mark
>
>
>1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.158
>
>2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; pp.193-195
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:53 PST 1996
Article: 23443 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dear Jewish Empire/Conglomerate/Organization,
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:51:12 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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hz729@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Tony Jung) wrote:

>
>
>HGXZOORGHVSHURHVRELNVILNMRHVMVXHVWFMVILNMRGHZXDZSHZMRGWVNZMHHVIGXZMZVVHLG
>GMZDR
>To The Powers That Be,
>   I think I've given you enough time. 
>I was watching 'Saturday Night Live' last night and the Jews used this 
>one segment to "advertise" that the Holocaust was a reality - very 
>cleverly done (so I know you control the media). I know that you have the 
>connections to make my request a reality (I talked to an actor on the Net 
>who told me that if you were Jewish, you had more of a chance to get the 
>opportunities to play parts in movies). I'm just one individual among quite 
>a few (who stands in awe of your organization and past accomplishments, and 
>has the insight to look beyond the surface) asking as a request.
>   Here is the "deal". If you fulfill my request, I promise not to post
>any more negative things about you...ever. I know you, and I know that if I
>ever broke my promise, you would have an incentive to make me have an 
>"accident". But consider that I gave the following texts to some of my 
>friends (who thought it was a flakey favor, but promised me they'd post it 
>for a long time if I croaked). 
>
>   Israel controls the fashion, banking (my friend once told me that 
>his wife worked at a bank, and that in the back room were recent Russian 
>Jewish immigrants who couldn't speak a word of English who were hired), 
>media (I saw on the news how people in the media were afraid of 
>criticizing Israel for fear of losing their jobs; a Hollywood bar-mitzpah), 
>legal council, jewlry, and diamond industries. 
>   With one of the largest lobbies in the U.S. (and Jews in the Senate), 
>they also dominate Washington politics (I think it was JFK who pleaded 
>with the Jews to stop pressuring Congress into increasing the level of 
>aid to Israel). Time and time again, the U.S. has given into the interests 
>of Israel (MFN status, loans, nuclear proliferation treaty, etc.). Israel 
>has been able to do what it wills (i.e., have a plane crash and only Arafat 
>survive, let the Russians catch an American spy in a 3-way trade, let that 
>guy escape from Dimona to tell the world, transport Ethiopian Jews, kidnap 
>that one PLO leader, steal plutonium and uranium from Bulgaria? and the 
>U.S., kill Demanjuk's lawyer and Robert Maxwell (this one was so obvious 
>that it was a friend who told me about it), etc.). 
>   Now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and support another theory.
>   I believe that China (even with its blatant human rights violations) 
>was given MFN status because:
>   1. They were supplying weapons to Syria, and Israel wanted to provide 
>an incentive (withdraw of MFN status) for them to stop.
>   2. China has nuclear weapons.
>   3. The U.S. wanted to somewhat "control" China.
>   The very last thing the Israelis want are stronger enemies on its 
>border. I remember once when the former Soviet Union needed help, and 
>Israel quickly supplied provisions and dealt with a hijack situation 
>responsibly. 

	The Jews are playing two ends for their interest in China.
They have bought the access to China by selling them U.S. military
technology. Now we are seeing articles on belligerency between China
and the U.S. Just when you think U.S. support for the Jewsih state has
hit a new height of rediculousness, a new one pops up.

>
>P.S.#1 I don't work for anyone (as a matter of fact, I'm presently job-
>seeking). If you e-mail me, I'll tell you whatever you want to know.
>P.S.#2 If you see other anon-posts, it is because I did it a long time ago
>using slow Anon-server.
>P.S.#3 Now...I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that if you reply, 
>you will expose yourself, and my theory will be validated. Or you'll think 
>that if you fulfill my request, the same will result. This is 
>understandable. I'd do the same thing...nothing. I think you think very 
>much like me. Now, there is no need to waste resources on me. I am scared
>of you (based on some books I've read), but I also know that you are 
>logical, systematic, and rational.   :) Don't hurt me! 
>P.S.#4 Just consider my request. Thanks.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:54 PST 1996
Article: 23452 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RICH GREEN INCOMPETENT? (was Re: CREMATORY RATES AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS SAYS EXPERT)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:24:36 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>>	It means you studied chemistry under that incompetant at Stanford.
>
>
>Do you mean Richard Green?

	Incompetance can place in even the highest of institutions.
Take the case of the nitwit who wrote "Genesis and the Big Bang" who
graduated from MIT with a degree in physics. His book written with the
aid of three rabbis in Israel asserts that everything that has been
discovered in physics can be found in the book. 

>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:54 PST 1996
Article: 23453 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos Deny the Myth
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:27:09 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <4fk4g4$d52@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com said:
>
>>>Sigh. Let me put it to you in an example. If you have a picture of
>>>people walking on the rail platform at Birkenau with the men's camp in
>>>the background, and the people are facing to the left, then they are
>>>headed towards Kremas II and III because the men's camp is to the
>>>north of the platform, and the Kremas are to the west.
>
>>	Lets see, people are walking on a platform and the men's camp is in the
>>background therefore they are are headed towards the Kremas.  I would have
>>thought that if they were facing left that would mean that is the
>>direction towards the steps to get down from the platform.  
>
>This is just typical of you.  You cannot be this stupid, so it has to be
>deliberate.  Mr. Morris said that the people were on the platform facing
>left, with the men's camp in the background.  Since it is a historical fact
>that the men's camp was to the north of the platform, and the Kremas were to
>the west, they must have been going in the direction of the Kremas.  A
>six-year old could figure this out, so I am sure you can as well.  It is
>obvious you don't want to because it interferes with your racialist and
>hate-filled agenda.
>
	Now theres some real evidence. They were facing this way or
that. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

>The rest of your post is a transparent attempt by you to get Mr. Morris to
>do your research for you, which you will then simply dismiss with a wave of
>your hand.  I hope he tells you to go fuck yourself.
>
>You, sir, are a fraud.
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                                      



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 12 17:22:55 PST 1996
Article: 23454 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:28:52 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In <311cd464.9054880@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said:
>
>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>>>	Your the one who seems to have all the heavy duty knowledge. Why don't
>>>>you do a treatment on it. Think of some more variables while your at it.
>>>>Go ahead, its your thing. I'll go along with the "pasting", period. You
>>>>give us the details.
>>>
>>>Why should Mr. Green do *your* work?  You are the one making the
>>>allegations.  Why don't you back them up?  (We know why, don't we folks?)
>>>
>>	"We"? This thread is self evident, regardless of what Mc Fee wants to
>>believe.
>
>OK, Tom, I'll make it easy for you.  *You* are the one making allegations. 
>Therefore, *you* are the one who should back them up.  You are trying to get
>others to do your research for you, and then you will respond with some
>puerile comment like, "It's flim-flam".
>
>What I meant by "We know why, don't we folks?", was that you don't back up
>your claims because you can't.
>                                                                                               
	"We"? Whose "we"?
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>        



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 13 15:46:10 PST 1996
Article: 23527 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: References
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:22:01 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	ATTENTION: Anyone wanting to know whether or not the Jews
planted 200,000,000 trees in Israel go to the library and see if you
can find any photographic evidence to substanciate the exaggeration. 
	Even though the land had been used for agriculture for
thousands of years and much argriculture was ongoing in 1947 when the
Jews began to force their presence in Palestine - "The Jews made the
desert bloom".


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 16 06:30:55 PST 1996
Article: 23762 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The More I See, the More ...
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:24:03 GMT
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	The more I see in Holocaust books the more I see the myth. So
far I have only read the contents of revisionist websites and some of
their pamphlets and none of their books, whereas I have poured over
various sections of five Holocaust books and it seems each page brings
up a new absurdity or realization of whats missing.
	Take the U.S. Holocaust Museum sponsored book "Anatomy of the
Auschwitz Death Camp" for instance. This book is a compilation of
chapters written by various persons.
	For the following we can focus on the section "The Machinery
of Mass Murder at Auschwitz" written by Pressac and Van Pelt. This
section deals basically with the construction of furnaces, ventilation
systems, construction and layout of crematoria buildings.
	The whole book utilizes the insertion of bibliography numbers
among the text as you read along so as to give it an air of validity
as to its research. Most often than not we will read along on expanded
commentary only to come to a bibliography number that upon looking it
up we find has nothing to do with most of the text. In fact the more
bibliography numbers we see the more one might wonder about those
parts that are expanded on that don't carry any referrence.
	The Pressac-Van Pelt chapter avails upon 167 bibliography
referrences interspersed in the text. Almost all of them refer us, to
records in Moscow and at the Polish Oswiecim Museum, mostly German
orders for furnaces, ventilation systems and plans for crematoria. We
could accept, for this treatment, that most of the records are
actually existing and authentic, without having to accept any of the
authors interpretations. 
	Evidentally Pressac has poured over the records which are
mostly letters and orders between manufacturers and Auschwitz
personnel and pieces it all together to read like mach speed, breath
taking, high drama. In the end run it is mostly irrelevant. No one
denies there were furnaces and even crematoria at Auschwitz, and he
fails to connect his compilation to the idea of a master plan to
exterminate people.
	Along the way Pressac makes comment on the alleged proceedures
of mass murder, and staying consistant with other Holocaust books he
discusses the various crematoria - all at once. He will start off
talking about one crematoria and before you know it you realize he's
referring to another. 
	As I find the usual, the text of Holocaust books raises more
doubts than it tends to belie and musters up realizations of whats
missing.
	The focus of most discussion about WWII is the obsession of
Nazi Germany unto Hitler himself to have a master design to kill Jews,
yet Pressac's accounting tends to put the whole matter into the hands
of those immediately at Auschwitz. He speaks of "block 11" being a
experimental gas chamber, where they tried different doses of Zyklon B
as if the highly efficient Germans wouldn't have had it all figured
out before. Here it is said that the Germans realized they would need
something with a ventilation system as if they wouldn't have figured
it out in true German style. Nor is there direct connections made
between the first gassings and the leadership. Even the use of Zyklon
B itself is obviously not something that came down from the high
command. In fact there is no report, of what to use where, coming from
Berlin. The use of Zyklon B and the first gassing all seems to
emminate from the self initiation of one person, while Ho'ss the camp
commodant was away.  Considering Pressac's account we get the idea it
was all some haphazard affair that sort of just started and proceeded
without an overall master plan and direction from the top. I would
invite anyone to read this chapter for the obvious connotations it
carries in this regard. 
	This chapter is also rich in diagrams and plans. 
Studing this chapter led me to realize something that is missing in
the overall Holocaust projection, which would be graphic depictions of
the workings of any particular crematoria. On considering all that is
alleged to have taken place during the mass exterminations we can
understand why the Holocaust books have not availed of any graphic
depictions of how, exactly, the process would have proceeded.
	The Pressac chapter supplies a number of plans for crematoria,
including sketches of exteriors and floor plans, without dotting in
the general route the process would have followed through the rooms,
the doors and up and down the stairs. You are left to your own to
figure out how the course of events would have been. (Take a peek at
rough layout at end of article)
	Piecing together the different details given by the Holocaust
story in general, we would have the following summary as to what is
said to have happened: people are brought up to the building a
thousand at a time, taking their clothes off, entering, filing down
stairs to the gas chambers, gassed, bodies being taken up stairs to a
room where their hair is cut off and their teeth pulled out, the hair
and teeth being removed to wherever, bodies being washed, chambers
being washed, bodies being stacked up in the furnace room to await
cremation, bodies being put into the furnaces, the furnaces stoked,
the ashes removed, bodies being taken outside to be stacked when space
runs out in the furnace rooms, the sondercommandos all running back
and forth bumping into each other on their way to get the bodies, up
stairs, down stairs, through standard sized doors, into rooms, out of
rooms, with most of this activity taking place in an area about 36 x
120 feet of interrupted floor space.
       The area where 5 cremation ovens are outlined to have been
shows the ovens to take up about a 10 by 10 ft. area each, leaving 9
ft. from the back to the nearest wall and about 17 ft. from the fronts
to the nearest wall, thus when bodies would be stacked up this would
tend to reduce the walkable space between the rear of the ovens and
the wall to 3 ft. and that at the front to about 11 ft., this latter
area being where bodies would be loaded into ovens, burners being
stoked with fuel, cinders being removed, doors being opened to flaming
fires, thermo intense chambers and smoldering remains, while stackers
migrate back and forth. 
	On top of all this, according to some accounts, the back log
of those to be killed could get so great that a new batch would be
filed in right past the stacked up bodies and the rest of the gruesome
scene. There is just no way people would file past all this, they
themselves naked, past heaps of naked dead. They would have an
immediate picture of their future and a forceful impulse to recoil
would have to have swept over them, creating mayhem.
	In short, by applying Holocaust accounts to the crematoria
plans shows the whole thing would have been a procedural and
logistical nightmare. Its rediculous to think these buildings were
designed to be self contained extermination and disposal centers.
	No wonder the Holocaust books refrain from depictions and full
scenarios. The whole thing, once the full picture is put together, is
so improbable that it is beyond absurd.

               Rough plan for crematoria II or III 
                          36 ft. wide x
<--30ft.-><---------------- 90 ft. --------------------><-30ft.->
----------------------------------------------------------     --
! three  !                                              !  staircase

! small  !                                         door >   to gas >>>
!  rooms !           row of five ovens 10x10ft.         !        !
!        !                                              !        !  
!.^..^..^!      ______________________________________  !        !
! doors >                                               !        !
!        !                                              !        !
!        !         X      X      X       X      X       !---- ^ -!
!        !                                        door >         !
!--------!                                              !        !
! two    !       _____________________________________  ! rooms  !
! rooms  !                                              !        !
<_doors__>________________________door__________________!   _____!

                                    ^                     ^
	         




 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 16 09:07:48 PST 1996
Article: 3609 of soc.history
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:42:03 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history:3609 alt.revisionism:23779 alt.censorship:68531

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>> 
>> 	The 4 million number is the number still held in the minds of
>> many. It has been that way for decades. 
>
>You have made this claim before, Mr. Moran.  On what evidence do you base 
>it?  Before I began participating in this newsgroup, I had never really 
>given much thought to the specific number of dead at Auschwitz, even 
>though I have always been convinced of the historical reality of the 
>Holocaust.  How do YOU know that most people, or even a significant 
>plurality of people, have long had "4 million" fixed in their heads as 
>the Auschwitz death toll?  
>
>As several other posters have noted, most polling data indicates that 
>most Americans are remarkably ignorant about the details of MOST matters of 
>history, the Holocaust among them.  It therefore seems unlikely to me 
>that a significant number of people have long believed that 4 million 
>died at Auschwitz.  
>
>Hell, for the first couple of months that you participated in this 
>newsgroup, you thought that the conventional history of the Holocaust 
>insisted that all 6 million Jewish victims were gassed in the 
>extermination camps.  If a revisionist scholar such as yourself can be 
>ignorant on that matter, how likely is it that large numbers of Americans 
>have any particular notion of how many people died in Auschwitz?

	Why don't you conduct a poll on your campus and see how many
people think 4 million were gassed at Auschwitz. My personal
experience is this is the number the masses have in their heads, and
it is this number compared to the new number that turns their ears to
the possibility the Holocaust is a myth. You believe what you want to
believe, its not going to change anything.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 16 11:59:12 PST 1996
Article: 23777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:14:25 GMT
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	Zyklon B was a product designed for the explicit purpose of
fumigation. This much seems to be accepted by both the Holocaust side
and the revisionist side.
	The active ingredient in the product was Hydrocyanic Acid-
(HCN).  
	The product is said to have come in various forms. Some
testimonies refer to "pellets", "granules", "powder" and at one time
"gas". 

	The product brochure states it is HCN mixed with a chemical
that has evaporative qualities and suspended in an absorbant medium.
The medium as described is either a wood fibre, diacom gravel or a
silica gel. The first one we would suppose was compressed into
pellets, and the silica gel we liken to something like a dense
vermiculite. The diacom gravel was probably some kind of pourous
stone.
	It is conceivable that the different forms might have had
different release rates, and thus meant to be used for certain
applications. The silica gel form is reported to have been chunks 1cm
to 2cm in dimension. The pellets are reported to be disc shaped. Size
unknown.   
	
	It is interesting that no general Holocaust books donate any
lengthy discussion on the product since it is the source of the
centermost topic of the Holocaust story - gas. The gas.

	"Gassing off" seems to be a term used to describe the process
of Zyklon B. A more familiar term would be something like
'evaporation'. The HCN is mixed with a evaporative liquid then used to
dampen something like saw dust, which is then pressed into pellets, or
ready made pellets pressure impregnated. The rate of evaporation would
be basically contingent on the evaporating material, like a solvent
and the denseness of the medium. Pour some laquer thinner on a plate
and an equal amount of say, paint thinner on another plate and you
will notice a distinct difference in the evaporation rate. Thus
identification of the evaporating substance would have a lot to do
with the rate of "gassing" off.
	The size and shape of any pellets would also have a lot to do
with how fast its captured HCN would be emitted. The more surface
area, the more area for the HCN to migrate to and evaporate from. How
thick where the pellets?  Who knows, no one seems to want to discuss
it. Since it is stated that the product came in three different
mediums, we might get the idea that each one had its own
charactersitics as to the rate of evaporation. 
	
	Temperature would most definetly be a factor in evaporation
rate. The warmer the air or the Zyklon B the more active the
molecules, thus the higher the rate of exchange from the damp stage to
vapor. The Harmon report* cites the manufacturers manual on Zyklon B
as saying that temperature is not so critical excepting that the
recommended time of fumigation is twice the time if below 5 degrees
centigrade, whereas Pressac states that the HCN will only gas above 32
degrees centigrade and he goes into some length to say the chambers
were heated.
	"Zyklon B"? "B"? Is there a Zyklon A, or just a plain Zyklon?
Interesting question.
	Well, whatever. The only thing I could come up with after
doing this little research was the legitimate question:
 WHY DIDN'T THE MASS MURDERERS USE THE PRODUCT IN ITS LIQUID FORM? 

	Any introduction of the liquid product into the gas chambers
would have resulted in rapid evaporation all at once, much more
efficient and easier than opening all those little cans and having to
sweep up all the expended slow release pellets which would still hold
50% or more of the product.


                ------------------------------------ 


	*For a more exausting study on hydrocyanic acid check out
McVay's posting of Harmon's report under "Cyanide, Zyklon-B & Mass
Murder" and Green's report, posting unknown, but I believe its out
there. These studies will give you the deepest details right down to
the chromodynamic level of quantum physics, and the effects of black
holes on Zyklon B.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 16 11:59:13 PST 1996
Article: 23778 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Stupid Germans
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:19:53 GMT
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	According to Brian Harmon's report presented to the group
under "Cyanide, Zyklon-B & Mass Murder" posted by Mc Vay, the Germans
built two of the crematoria gas chambers under ground so the SS could
get on the roof to pour in the Zyklon B.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 16 20:24:57 PST 1996
Article: 23803 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Starting a countdown for Moran's answer (was: Exaggerated claims
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:12:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Just for fun, Tom, I'm going to count how many days it takes you to 
>answer at least one of the 3 questions below.  Just one, that's all I 
>ask.... that shouldn't be too hard, should it?
>
>
>: 1)Where do you see that anyone is going to "shake down" the Swiss 
>: government?  The above article mentioned Swiss banks and the Swiss 
>: Banker's Association, both of which are PRIVATE.

	Did I say "government"? Okay we acknowledge the "private".

>: 2) What's wrong with a clearing house for claims?  The point of such a 
>: mechanism, like it was in the US-Iran Claims Tribunal, was to distinguish 
>: real claims from false.  I would think you would support such fact-finding?

	Let them have a "clearing house" for claims in Israel, keep
the U.S. Congress out of it. I can picture it now, Jewish lobby
pounding their fist on the Senators desk, 'We want money'. 
	"Fact finding". Didn't the Swiss already do three 'fact
finding' surveys? I believe the "fact finding" is to be based on
people writing in to make claims. 'Dear Jewish fact finding panel, I
know that I had a cousin in Germany who was a millionaire and
deposited 200,000,000 dollars in the Swiss bank in 1939. I don't have
anything to substantiate it, but I am Jewish and you are Jewish, and
we have a common interest in getting money out of the private Swiss
institutions'. 

>: 3)When it happens, why don't YOU investigate some of the claims?  If you 
>: can prove even ONE of them false, it would add a lot of credibility to 
>: your usual unsupported blathering.  Of course, it still wouldn't prove 
>: your main lies, but it sure would show that you at least have a distant 
>: concept of fact-gathering and investigaiton.

	I would like to see a full account of this "fact finding". Do
you think it will be open for inspection, to the fullest?




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 17 09:35:18 PST 1996
Article: 23803 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Starting a countdown for Moran's answer (was: Exaggerated claims
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:12:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>Just for fun, Tom, I'm going to count how many days it takes you to 
>answer at least one of the 3 questions below.  Just one, that's all I 
>ask.... that shouldn't be too hard, should it?
>
>
>: 1)Where do you see that anyone is going to "shake down" the Swiss 
>: government?  The above article mentioned Swiss banks and the Swiss 
>: Banker's Association, both of which are PRIVATE.

	Did I say "government"? Okay we acknowledge the "private".

>: 2) What's wrong with a clearing house for claims?  The point of such a 
>: mechanism, like it was in the US-Iran Claims Tribunal, was to distinguish 
>: real claims from false.  I would think you would support such fact-finding?

	Let them have a "clearing house" for claims in Israel, keep
the U.S. Congress out of it. I can picture it now, Jewish lobby
pounding their fist on the Senators desk, 'We want money'. 
	"Fact finding". Didn't the Swiss already do three 'fact
finding' surveys? I believe the "fact finding" is to be based on
people writing in to make claims. 'Dear Jewish fact finding panel, I
know that I had a cousin in Germany who was a millionaire and
deposited 200,000,000 dollars in the Swiss bank in 1939. I don't have
anything to substantiate it, but I am Jewish and you are Jewish, and
we have a common interest in getting money out of the private Swiss
institutions'. 

>: 3)When it happens, why don't YOU investigate some of the claims?  If you 
>: can prove even ONE of them false, it would add a lot of credibility to 
>: your usual unsupported blathering.  Of course, it still wouldn't prove 
>: your main lies, but it sure would show that you at least have a distant 
>: concept of fact-gathering and investigaiton.

	I would like to see a full account of this "fact finding". Do
you think it will be open for inspection, to the fullest?




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 17 09:35:20 PST 1996
Article: 23827 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: the impossible secret (again...)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:30:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:


	"Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"

	"Nature competed with man to create mass death in Auschwitz.
SS doctors were confronted ... The trouble came from persons who had
not been subjected to the delousing treatment, the free civilian
workers, who were in everyday contact with the prisoners."  Which was
1,000, yes, one thousand civilian workers in "everyday contact" with
the prisoners.





From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 17 09:35:20 PST 1996
Article: 23830 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Cultured McVay
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 04:53:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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	Under Webcrawler > Revisionism > "Green Eggs Report" we are
given a brief bio on McVay, and his photo, for any one who wants to
see the face of the collaborator himself.
	The report states at one place that McVay was retired and at
another that he was unemployed when he began whatever he's up to now.
	Giving us the warm human side of McVay we can click up
"trivia" where we are given the following life interests of the
person. 


beer:	      Okanagan Springs Old English Porter
champagne:    Dom Perignon, of course.
cognac:       Remy Martin Grand Champagne
comedian:     John Cleese
comedy group: Monty Python's Flying Circus (who else?)
dog:          "Tilly" (Bassett Hound)
hideaway:     Astoria, Oregon
lady:         (she knows who she is)
mead:         Chateau Bumrot '96 (Happy, Harry?)
pianist:      Eva (Hi, sweetheart; welcome home!)
politician:   Pierre Trudeau
resolution:   Never to let Lucy hold that football again.
sports cars:  MGTD & BGT, Austin-Healy Sprite, Lotus 7 Mk IV
stout:        Guiness, of course!
wine (red):   Geisweiler Beaune	 
wine (white): yetch 

        I personally don't know what McVay was before he became
"retired" or "unemployed" and took up collaboration, but it seems he
would like to have his wine cellars and fancy cars and perhaps he
found a way to have it.
	Actually it might be difficult to visualize a man of culture
>from  the list, more of a picture of a mod squad yuppy. Considering
this bio of interests, we wonder what kind of history he had fighting
"hatred" and injustice before he somehow got all hooked up with what
he's doing now.
	Well, anyway, his bio does him injustice. It doesn't mention
any book(s) he might like when in fact he is very well read in the one
and only, holiest of holy, libra maximus, IT, "The Holocaust Almanac".




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 17 09:35:21 PST 1996
Article: 23831 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The More I See, the More ...
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 04:54:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Adding to the rediculousness of the idea that discussed
building was designed as a mass extermination center is the artist
rendition of the exterior upright that shows the building to have
about 10 pairs of multipaned running the whole length on both sides.
One could only imagine seeing all the bodies piled up inside against
these windows.
	Actually the building follows the exact same motif that the
reception center had, complete with small Bavarian dormers, and was
obviously built with aesthetics in mind. 
	
	The part that shows what could be a furnace done at the time
of the drawing is located in the center of a small ell wing maybe 12 x
20 ft. that juts out from the rest of the building and has two 'French
doors'. (See further detailed plan below to show ell and windows[w]s)


                        Crematoria I or II              
                          36 ft. wide x
<--30ft.-><---------------- 90 ft. --------------------><-30ft.->
 -- w --- w --- w --- w --- w --- w --- w --- w --- w --- door---!

! three  !                                              !  staircase
         !                                                   to gas >>
! small  !                                         door >        !   
!  rooms !                                              !        !
!.^..^..^!      ______________________________________  !        !
! doors >                                               !        !
!        !          row of five furnaces                !        !
!        !         X      X      X       X      X       !---- ^ -!
!        !                                        door >         !
!--------!     _______________________________________
!        !
! two    !                                              ! rooms  !
! rooms  !                                              !        !
<___ w ____ w ____ w ____ w _____stnd_____ w  ___ w ____ w ___ w _ 
                               ! door ! 
                               !      !                    
	            chimney > X!   X < furnace (located in center)

                               !      !
           Ell wing ---------->!_    _!  
                               French doors
         
	The chimney is located just outside connected to the ell about
8-10 ft. from the main building. The five furnaces shown in the book's
floor plan are indicated as squares and it looks like they could have
been penciled in after the original. Nothing on the plans explains how
the smokey fumes from the five furnaces shown inside the main building
would get to this chimney 20 to 40 feet away.
	Seems every little detail in the plans makes a mockery of the
allegations it was designed and used as a extermination facility.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 17 09:35:25 PST 1996
Article: 23884 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:28:59 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <311cd468.9058450@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	By "pasting" we could consider this 'adhereing', 'sticking' or
>	whatever. The HCN was impregnated into the Zyklone B vehicle
>	in liguid form that had evaporative qualities. We can asume
>	that the HCN rode along with the substance of evaporative
>	substance.
>
>Mr. Moran says, "We can assume..."  In the realm of science, "we" can
>assume nothing!  From his reliance on unfounded assumptions, we can
>assume that Mr. Moran knows nothing at all about chemistry.

	Chemistry genius sets the record straight? Going by the
Degecsh manual, the HCN was mixed with a evaporative material, the
latter being what carries the HCN into the air - I assume. Now that
you have given us your cross blanket statement about my assumption
maybe you can set the record really straight.

>
>	As long as it had electrical qualities (non-inertness)
>	it would tend to stick to something. I would also be prone to
>	being incorporated into any sweat.
>
>Mr. Moran makes even more assumptions!  Even if it is not inert, the
>time required for HCN to bond with a particular material has yet to be
>determined, and could be close to infinite for a material like
>human sweat.
>
	"Close to infinite for a material like human sweat"? Would you
like to offer anything else besides this? I take it to mean when you
say "Mr. Moran knows nothing about chemistry" you infer that you do.
Go for it.

>	Take just about anything and spray it at a liquid and see
>	if it doesn't mix.
>
>More pseudo-scientific malarkey from Mr. Moran!  Do not take "just about
>anything!"  Take HCN -- that is the chemical under discussion -- and study
>its properties thoroughly.  Do not base any propositions on convenient
>assumptions, as Mr. Moran does, if you want to arrive at the truth.

	Okay, take HCN and spray it a puddle of water and see if you
don't see a film develope on the surface. Try it with a solvent.

>Mr. Moran has a desparate need to avoid the truth, which is why his
>"science" must be based on assumptions, rather than facts.

	Now you don't really think you have posted a empirical
response to the theories and questions do you? 

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>The pious fool, the hypocrite, and the flagellating Pharisee are
>destroyers of human society.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 17 09:35:25 PST 1996
Article: 23885 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUCHFELD, I-HAVE-ENOUGH!
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:33:42 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <3125e65b.1177592@news.pacificnet.net>
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>> >There are cyanide compounds in the walls of the Krema I gas
>> >chamber. This proves that HCN gas WAS USED in it. This proves
>> >that all these "dangers" you're talking about were overcome.
>> 
>> 	The only thing traces of HCN found on walls would "prove" is
>> that traces are there. It doesn't prove it was used for extermination
>> - it doesn't prove problems were overcome.
>
>OK, fair enough.  The HCN residues _in themselves_ do not prove 
>extermination.  But the HCN residues are in the very buildings that 
>survivors, Nazi guards, Nazi reports, Nazi commanders, and Nazi 
>blueprints all indicate were the locations of lethal gassings of large 
>numbers of human beings.  Congratulations, Mr. Moran--you have solved 
>your own "crime scene" question!  

	Nevertheless, any traces found do not prove they extend from
gassings of humans. Here you had to resort to citing other material to
try and prove the traces come from the murdering process.


>To use the murder-mystery analogy you have used before, a pool of human 
>blood in a carpet doesn't _in itself_ prove a murder.  But when the pool 
>of blood is combined with eyewitness accounts of a murder and a signed 
>confession of the murderer, that starts to look like a pretty solid case 
>for the prosecution, wouldn't you say?
>
>> >How many times do we have to go through this? Can't Zundel's pals 
>> >in the South-Pole "German UFO base" give you people something new?
>> >
>> 	A common denominator for Holocaust peers is to keep stating
>> something has been gone over before. Soemtimes new developments arise
>> that warrant recap and there are always new people checking out the
>> group. 
>
>You're right in one respect--new people are always coming in to the 
>conversation.  However, it IS a bit frustrating when some longtime 
>participants in the group keep re-stating the same stupid lies that have 
>been repeatedly answered before.
>
>Oh, and by the way, speaking of questions that HAVEN'T been answered, 
>what U.S. court decision deemed the menorah to be a secular symbol, Mr. 
>Moran?
	kel men
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 17 09:35:26 PST 1996
Article: 23886 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:44:53 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>	I was, as you know, responding to a mention of some pits that Himmler
>>ordered dug up and burned because of the smell.  I pointed out this pit had not
>>been identified.  The response was that they ashes were dumped in the river(s)
>>to explain the failure to find this pit.  
>>	You must pardon me if my tongue was in my cheek in some parts of the
>>response.  It is good to see you agree with the existence of this pit.  Perhaps you
>>can explain what any of this has to do with where the ashes were disposed.
>
>Again, you must have missed the following information posted
>previously by Mr. Van Alstine:
>
>    In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow,
>    was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry
>    out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the
>    locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop
>    bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and
>    hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the holes and the
>    diagrams of their distribution are preserved in the Conservation
>    Department of the Museum (Franciszek Piper, _Anatomy_,  p. 179n).
>
>The pits are where they are supposed to be: in various locations from
>the northwest corner of the camp to Kremas IV and V.

	"Traces of human ashes, bones and hair". Why don't Holocaust
people post a comprehensive report on these test to sell their point.
It seems to me if you have good evidence here you would have pressed
it in detail. If I recall right, you posted a similar thing about
Treblinka. 
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 17 09:35:27 PST 1996
Article: 23888 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:00:29 GMT
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"Brett E. Fricke"  wrote:

>
>
>On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> >On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> >
>> >> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> 	The 4 million number is the number still held in the minds of
>> >> many. It has been that way for decades. 
>> >
>> >You have made this claim before, Mr. Moran.  On what evidence do you base 
>> >it?  Before I began participating in this newsgroup, I had never really 
>> >given much thought to the specific number of dead at Auschwitz, even 
>> >though I have always been convinced of the historical reality of the 
>> >Holocaust.  How do YOU know that most people, or even a significant 
>> >plurality of people, have long had "4 million" fixed in their heads as 
>> >the Auschwitz death toll?  
>> >
>> >As several other posters have noted, most polling data indicates that 
>> >most Americans are remarkably ignorant about the details of MOST matters of 
>> >history, the Holocaust among them.  It therefore seems unlikely to me 
>> >that a significant number of people have long believed that 4 million 
>> >died at Auschwitz.  
>> >
>> >Hell, for the first couple of months that you participated in this 
>> >newsgroup, you thought that the conventional history of the Holocaust 
>> >insisted that all 6 million Jewish victims were gassed in the 
>> >extermination camps.  If a revisionist scholar such as yourself can be 
>> >ignorant on that matter, how likely is it that large numbers of Americans 
>> >have any particular notion of how many people died in Auschwitz?
>> 
>> 	Why don't you conduct a poll on your campus and see how many
>> people think 4 million were gassed at Auschwitz. My personal
>> experience is this is the number the masses have in their heads, and
>> it is this number compared to the new number that turns their ears to
>> the possibility the Holocaust is a myth. You believe what you want to
>> believe, its not going to change anything.
>
>I don't think that it really matters exactly how many were killed at 
>Auschwitz.  An exact count is trivial and can not be accurately determined.  
>The only things that matter is that a LOT of Jews, and a few others, were 
>gassed there; that we can never forget the horrors of the entire 
>Holocaust; and we can never tolerate anyone who claims that it is a 
>myth.  

	Fact is that the 4 million was an immense fabrication. As it
stands now 3 million. In another few years it will be a couple hundred
thousand, and then it will be a few ten thousand, and none will be
thought of as having been gassed. Once it falls, 99% of the rest will
follow. 
	"War is hell" and it wasn't just "a LOT of Jews" and "a few
others" that suffered, it was the other way around.
>-Frick



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:48 PST 1996
Article: 24025 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:45:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <31272d24.1274919@news.pacificnet.net>
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roger@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) wrote:

>In article <31236ca4.11746480@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>
>
>>for Auschwitz is 2.5 million or more.
>>	
>>
>
>Is the number of dead at issue in Harmon's paper, or in McVay's
>citation of it?

I would say both. Harmon wrote it, McVay excepts it. He presses the
same thing on Nizkor, unless he changed it since my last access.

>Roger Lustig
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:49 PST 1996
Article: 24026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:47:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4g4lf9$b1g@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:
>
>>Mr. McVay did something you clearly are incapable of understanding.  He
>>wrote a well researched piece with references.  I might have figured that
>
>Correction, Mr. McFee - I did not do much of the writing for
>that article, which is part of the fifth Holocaust Research
>Guide. The article was researched and written by members of
>the Holocaust Research mailing list, and they are certainly
>free to accept the credit (which they are more than entitled
>to, from where I sit) - when the FAQ is finally released,
>their names will be added to that section, unless they
>decline.
>
>>you would respond with an irrelevant piece of drivel that incorrectly
>>captures what he wrote.  For example, he pointed out that the 4 million
>>figure was challenged in the 1960's.  You gloss over that completely.
>
>What else can we expect?
>
>>>	On top of all this, McVay's page still to this day presses
>>>higher numbers than what is accepted - even unto 4 million or more.
>
>"Accepted" by whom, Mr. Moran?

	Simon Wiesenthal for one.

>>Mr. McVay's pages are accurate and complete.  You are too stupid to
>>understand them and Giwer is too dishonest to fairly represent what is
>>there.  Why am I not surprised?
>
>:-)
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                    Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca 
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:50 PST 1996
Article: 24029 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:55:29 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <31272e26.1532297@news.pacificnet.net>
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roger@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) wrote:

>In article <312355ff.5950464@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>	The 4 million number is the number still held in the minds of
>>many. It has been that way for decades. Even though McVay would like
>>to put the blame on the Soviets, communists, the real truth is the
>>number has been pressed by the same ones who press all the other stuff
>>today. 
>
>What "other stuff" is that?  Who has "pressed" this number?  Citations,
>please.

	Some of them are listed under McVays post "The 4 million
Variant"

>>Tomorrow? Tomorrow McVay will be denied by those he apologizes
>>for today
>
>Could you name those people?  Whome does McVay apologize for?


	I would say the Wiesenthal Center for one. Or any one who
talks about Holocaust 'realities' but does not committ themselves to
the same thing Nizkor is.

>>. He will be tossed out, shunned, they will say 'He's the one
>>who alleged all this, not us.'
>
>Really?  Who will say this?  Could you let us know when they do?
>
>>	On top of all this, McVay's page still to this day presses
>>higher numbers than what is accepted - even unto 4 million or more.
>
>Where does it do that?  Please give citations.  Where does McVay
>"press" higher numbers than what scholars say?

Nizkor > "Auschwitz: How many people died at Auschwitz?

>Roger Lustig
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:50 PST 1996
Article: 24030 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The More I See, the More ...
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:33:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <312731a4.2427025@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31255f68.23556563@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>> Adding to the rediculousness of the idea that discussed
>> building was designed as a mass extermination center is the artist
>> rendition... 
>
>First off, Tommy, _which_ artist, _which_ plans, and _which_ SOURCE are
>you taking this from? 

	The source is cited, the artist I assume to have been German,
if we accept the validity of the source of the renditions, the plans
that accompany the uprights. 

>> ...of the exterior upright that shows the building to have
>> about 10 pairs of multipaned running the whole length on both sides.
>> One could only imagine seeing all the bodies piled up inside against
>> these windows.
>
>Yes, a gruesome sight, I'm sure. _If_ one were allowed to actually peek
>in, and _if_ indeed there happened to be any bodies piled up against the
>windows.... BTW, you _do_ realize that the entrence to the dressing (and 
>hence the gas-chambers) was at the far end of the building and away from 
>most of the furnace windows (half of which were on the _other_ side of the
>building) right by the L.Keller and B.Keller?  

	No I do not realize the entrance was at any particular spot.
It is not given. The whole thing is vague. No Holocaust loyal has
committed themselves to any exactitudes. As the post says. Why don't
you direct everyone to a real committment. A plan that says 'This is
it'. 'This is the way it proceeded.' 'This is what the whole thing
looked like.' Vague, intentionally vague, multiple choices, thats
whats given, for the express purpose of keeping any one from making a
clean analysis.
>
>> Actually the building follows the exact same motif that the
>> reception center had, complete with small Bavarian dormers, and was
>> obviously built with aesthetics in mind. 
>
>How artistic of the Nazis. They desinged their mass-killing centers with
>Bavarian aesthetics in mind. How Wagnarian.

	Wagner? Isn't he on the long list of genius anti-Semites? Well
it seems like making a iron ore smelting plant to look like a
cathedral. It shows that it was not set up on total utilitarian
considerations. It suggests that it was something else.
>
>>  The part that shows what could be a furnace done at the time
>> of the drawing is located in the center of a small ell wing maybe 12 x
>> 20 ft. that juts out from the rest of the building and has two 'French
>> doors'. (See further detailed plan below to show ell and windows[w]s)
>
>[Tommy's erroneous ASCII doodle-art snipped]
>
>Krema I or II? Um, no. Your doodling isn't of Kremas I or II, that I'm
>pretty sure of. I suggest you go back and compare it with a drawing of
>Krema II found in _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, pages 202-203.
>Your layout is different. 

	I took the renditions from the other plans, 204, 205, 206 and
207. The one you direct us to is more in line with a photograph that
shows the chimney in the center of the ell. This plan creates even
more of a procedural and logistical nightmare than the one I
accomodated to your stance. The next time I post it, I will use that e
building you refer to in the "doodles".

>> The chimney is located just outside connected to the ell about
>> 8-10 ft. from the main building.
>
>Yes? And? You don't think the furnaces were connected to the chimney for
>some reason? 

	Did I say this or did I state that no mechanism is shown to
connect the interior furnaces to the chimney in the ell 20 to 40 feet
away.
>
>> The five furnaces shown in the book's floor plan are indicated as
>> squares and it looks like they could have been penciled in after the
>> original. 
>
>They looked they could have been "penciled in?" Not on the drawing I
>mentioned they don't! Are you a draftsman or an architect Tommy?
>(Obviously not!) If you were you'd know that one doesn't "pencil in" stuff
>on architectural drawings. The whole _point_ of such drawings is
>preciseness and accuracy for the builders. These drawings, after all are
>done to _scale_, for heavens sake! 

	You have allayed nothing to show they couldn't have been added
to. Did I say "penciled"? Okay, inked. Actually I don't find it all
that relevant at this time, though it could be in the future. The gist
is the improbability of this design being capable of performing what
is claimed.
>
>> Nothing on the plans explains how the smokey fumes from the five furnaces 
>> shown inside the main building would get to this chimney 20 to 40 feet away.
>
>With a 20,000 to 120,000 cu m per hour extraction system (for all the
>furnances combined) connected to the smokestack with, if I recall
>correctly, a 12 meter connecting flue? Yup, that would do it.... 

	What dimensions did the flue have? Was it a 2" flue or a 3'
flue?  What were the dimensions of the final flue in the chimney? Was
it big enough to handle all the furnaces? Was the flue from the
furnaces a 20" going into a 14" flue? What benefit would putting the
chimney out side away from the main battery of furnaces have as
opposed to the chimney being located right at the immediate vacinity? 

>> Seems every little detail in the plans makes a mockery of the
>> allegations it was designed and used as a extermination facility.
>
>The only thing being made mockery of here, Tommy, is your "knowledge" of
>architectural drawings. If you had any you'd realize that building plans
>consist of _many_ drawings. Drawings for the floor plan, for the
>elevations, for the foundations, for the electrical and plumbing, and for
>the ventilation system and ducts....  

	Okay, where are they.
>
>But noooo! You peek at an elevation drawing with a floor plan, not
>understanding in the least what you are looking at, and the first thing to
>leave your lips is "Duh, the furnaces ain't hooked to the smokestack
>'cause it ain't in the drawing! Duh, then Krema II wasn't an
>ex-termi-na-shun' fa-cil-i-tee!" Like the Nazis would build this neat-o
>crematorium with all these neat-o furnaces in it and forget to hook up
>them to the smokestack?

	You correct and expand on the picture.
>
>Tommy, you are _such_ a moron! Give it up!
>
	Van Alstine finishes up his response with this finale?
Interesting.	
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:51 PST 1996
Article: 24031 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:38:02 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <3125f20c.4171004@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <31248fcb.250238@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>>	Well, whatever. The only thing I could come up with after
>>>>doing this little research was the legitimate question:
>>>> WHY DIDN'T THE MASS MURDERERS USE THE PRODUCT IN ITS LIQUID FORM? 
>>>
>>>The answer to this, given the evidence, is that the Zyklon-B
>>>was _there_, in use for standard fumigation. Since it was
>>>there, it was tried, and it worked.
>>
>>	Perhaps you could show how this answers the question.
>
>    Here's another legitimate question.  Why didn't the fumigators trying
>to kill lice use the product in its liquid form? 
>
>    If you can answer that question, then you will have the answer to 
>your question.
>
	The pellets were designed for slow release, to take effect
over a extended period of time, evidentally so it would have time to
work on the intended target, lice and lice eggs, whereas the alleged
process of killing the human beings was intended to get it over with
quickly.

-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:52 PST 1996
Article: 24035 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:52:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <3125eb59.2455696@news.pacificnet.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history:3646 alt.revisionism:24035 alt.censorship:69047

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <31236ca4.11746480@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
>
>>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	See McVay's post "Cyanide, Zyclone-B & Mass Murder" where he has posted a
>>paper by Harmon who four times implies that the figure for Auschwitz is
>>2.5 million or more.
>
>That wasn't what Harmon's paper said or implied.  

	Readers, besides McFee, go to the post cited above and see for
your self. Actually you can go to the thread where Tom Moran has
pointed them out along the way.

>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                              



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:53 PST 1996
Article: 24036 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:15:51 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <31273f27.5885708@news.pacificnet.net>
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mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <3125f289.4295849@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>This should have been entitled "The I-Could-Only-Have-Made-More-
>>>Errors-if-I-Had-Introduced-More-Information Guide to Zyklon B."
>>>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>	Zyklon B was a product designed for the explicit purpose of
>>>>fumigation. This much seems to be accepted by both the Holocaust side
>>>>and the revisionist side.
>>>
>>>One right.
>>>
>>>>	The active ingredient in the product was Hydrocyanic Acid-
>>>>(HCN).  
>>>>	The product is said to have come in various forms. Some
>>>>testimonies refer to "pellets", "granules", "powder" and at one time
>>>>"gas". 
>>>
>>>>	The product brochure states it is HCN mixed with a chemical
>>>>that has evaporative qualities and suspended in an absorbant medium.
>>>
>>>I wonder why they would mix HCN with another product that evaporates.
>>>HCN evaporates quite well on its own.
>>
>>	Then you say the cited patents are wrong or the ones who
>>posted the contents of the patents are wrong?
>
>    Your analysis is wrong.  But that is nothing new.  Do you know what 
>the other ingredient was?  Do you know what its purpose was?
>
>
>>Actually prussic acid
>>has a .9 ratio to air 1.0 by density suspension rate, thus it is not
>>all that capable on its own to be lifted into the air for circulation.
>
>    If that is true, Mr. Moran, perhaps you could tell us how the 
>California gas chamber manages to kill people?  The cyanide there is not 
>mixed with another product which evaporates.  The pellets are dropped 
>into a bucket under the chair of the condemned man.  You appear to be 
>saying that the cyanide will just sit there under the chair without 
>something to help it up.

	Cyanides come in different forms, like KCN. What forms they
used in U.S. penal gas chambers I don't know. I was under the opinion
it was dropped into some kind of activator. Regardless your own point
leads one to wonder why the Germans wouldn't have used other forms of
the poison, that would have been a lot more efficient in time and
product, instead of having to contend with the nearly 50% that would
still have been in the slow release pellets after the fact. 

>    Posted/emailed.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:53 PST 1996
Article: 24037 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:29:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>> 
>> >We've been over this many times before.  I recall asking Ross Vicksell
>> >of CODOH if he couldn't think of any reasons why the gas chambers would
>> >be built underground.  When he didn't offer any, I typed up a list of
>> >six or eight of them, off the top of my head.  Perhaps Mr. Moran would
>> >like to try his hand?
>> 
>>         Bomb shelters. Storage.
>
>Those are not reasons why it would be useful to build _gas chambers_
>underground.  As I said, I can list you six or eight of them off the
>top of my head.  Here, Mr. Moran, I'll get you started:
>
>1.  No worries about the soon-to-be-victims knocking the walls down.
>
>2.  Muffles screams.
>
>3.  Warmer in winter.
>
>4.  No worries about chinks in the walls leaking poison gas.
>
>It is Mr. Moran's claim that the Germans were "stupid" for building
>some of the gas chambers underground.  I've just given four reasons why
>it would not be stupid.  Therefore, Mr. Moran's original point is no
>longer worthy of consideration.
>
>If he thinks any or all of my reasons are invalid, he's welcome to try
>to explain why.

	First of all Jamie, the post is directed explicitly towards
Harmon's two or three times reiterated statement that they were built
under ground so the Germans could get on the roof. The facts of it all
is right here on the group.
	As to your personal reasons above, walls can easily be built
to withstand whatever you say. You said you could think of 6 to 8
reasons "off the top" of your head, and gave four, where are the other
2 to 4 reasons. When you come back with those maybe you would like to
explain how it all fits in with Kremas IV and V being built above
ground. 

	

>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:54 PST 1996
Article: 24041 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Moran (was Re: Stupid Germans)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:37:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>  
>> 
>>  >Wouldn't be altogether a more sensible explanation of the apparent
>>  >stupidy of Germans that they originally intended to use the
>>  >underground chambers as morgues but then realized that it would be
>>  >more efficient to kill people on site rather than tto transport the
>>  >bodies? Especially considering that there is documentary evidence to
>>  >back up this explanation?
>>  >
>>  >Am I talking to a wall?
>>  
>>  	Morris, does your post here respond to the intial post?
>>
>>>>>
>	The answer to both questions is "YES."
>
	Wait a minute, just one second now, I forgot something, aren't
these buildings alleged to have been built for the purpose of
extermination? We are talking about Kremas II and III aren't we Yale?
Are these the ones your referring to, or are you and Morris suddenly
sleighting the topic over to the claims of "Krema I"? Are you saying
these Kremas II, III, IV and V were built for something else and were
then availed upon to use as extermination facilities?

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:55 PST 1996
Article: 24042 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to tell if you're talking to a wall (was Re: Stupid Moran)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:41:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>John Morris (jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
>: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>
>: Am I talking to a wall?
>
>If you talk to it and get no response -- it's a wall.
>If you talk to it and get an amazingly stupid response -- it's tom moran.
>
>(You could probably also do a chemical test -- if it's made of bricks,
>it's probably a wall; if it's made of granite, it's probably moran.)
>
	Another brilliant response out of Israel. And this guy is a
member of a department of chemistry? What is all this wailing on
walls? 

>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>There's something I must tell you, there's something I must say:
>The only really perfect love is one that gets away.
>				--The Residents



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:56 PST 1996
Article: 24043 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's fingers and Moran's toes
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:50:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  >
>>  	Photos would be fine. WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS?
>> 
>>>>>
>	You have been told before.  The photos can be obtained from the 
>Jewish National Fund in New York which has operated the tree planting operation 
>since the Mandate was established.  Why have you not contacted them for the 
>photos?  More to the point why are you asking others to do *your* homework?

	Doesthis mean you have contacted the group and they say yes,
they have the photos? Is this the same group that made the exaggerated
claims in the first place?
	ATTENTION; Anyone wanting to know if the Jews planted
200,000,000 trees or not go to the library and see if you can find any
photos that would support it.
	Anyway Yale and all the rest, thank you for the endorsement of
the other post under Zioexaggerations by focusing on this one. 

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 09:28:56 PST 1996
Article: 24047 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:45:02 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <31248fcb.250238@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	
>>	Temperature would most definetly be a factor in evaporation
>>rate. The warmer the air or the Zyklon B the more active the
>>molecules, thus the higher the rate of exchange from the damp stage to
>>vapor. The Harmon report* cites the manufacturers manual on Zyklon B
>>as saying that temperature is not so critical excepting that the
>>recommended time of fumigation is twice the time if below 5 degrees
>>centigrade, whereas Pressac states that the HCN will only gas above 32
>>degrees centigrade and he goes into some length to say the chambers
>>were heated.
>
>HCN boils at 25.7 (C).  That means at 32 (C), it's no longer a liquid:
>it's a gas.  Even at 0 (C)  [32 F I wonder if you are confusing the
>two], HCN has a significant vapor pressure.  Heating, however, would
>speed up the process.  Can you provide a cite for your Pressac
>reference?  I doubt that he says what you say he says.
>
	First I will correct the 32 degrees centigrade figure to 27
degrees centigrade. Most of what Pressac has to say about Zyklon B is
between pgs. 209 and 217 in the source cited. The 27 degrees is on
page 209. 

>>	Well, whatever. The only thing I could come up with after
>>doing this little research was the legitimate question:
>> WHY DIDN'T THE MASS MURDERERS USE THE PRODUCT IN ITS LIQUID FORM? 
>>
>>	Any introduction of the liquid product into the gas chambers
>>would have resulted in rapid evaporation all at once, much more
>>efficient and easier than opening all those little cans and having to
>>sweep up all the expended slow release pellets which would still hold
>>50% or more of the product.
>
>OK, good Mr. Moran.  You're starting to think; I applaud you.  I agree
>with you that introducing the liquid into the gas chamber would have
>killed the victims quicker.  Now we have to look at the bigger picture
>of the whole process.  HCN in its liquid form is very difficult to
>handle and transport.  It's very dangerous, very voltile, and it has a
>tendency to polymerize.

	Exactly the answer I had expected. It was too dangerous to
ship around. Many dangerous substances are shipped around. Volatile
stuff like gasoline, naptha, benzine and a host of others.
"Polymerize"? Possible, I guess. Is this true when it's in the pellets
also?
>
>Even laboratories that wish to use HCN often produce HCN rather than
>purchase the liquid.  The expense and difficulty of handling the liquid
>make something like Zyklon-B much more expedient.
>
	Of course we would have to have a complete accounting of all
this.
	Anyway, it seems you agree the HCN was icorporated into the
suspension medium in liquid form, whereas Harmon seems to disagree.
	

>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>-- 
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Richard J. Green
>Department of Chemistry
>Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU     
>
>Check out my recently updated web page:
>
>	http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 10:41:02 PST 1996
Article: 24051 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A pattern is forming....
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:50:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>
>Well, after long lurking and occasional posting, I can't help but notice 
>the common pattern of the Nazis (oops, I mean Revisionists). 

	No you mean "oops" "Nazis".

> They post a 
>few paragraphs or pages, proudly announcing that they have just found a 
>major flaw in one little piece of the mounds of evidence showing the 
>existence of the holocaust.  Then, one or more people jump in and tear 
>their statements to shreds, using logica and evidence.  The 
>Na...Revisionists then move, on almost never responding or explaining why 
>they were Not wrong in their original posts.  SO they're proven wrong,and 
>just pretend it didn't happen.
>
>I think, when this happens, a challenge should be given to them to GO 
>BACK TO the previous thread, and explain why they weren't worng that time 
>9and the time before, and the time before...)  They should be confronted 
>with failure after failure, just to keep those failures fresh.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 19:40:23 PST 1996
Article: 24086 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:29:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <3125f289.4295849@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>This should have been entitled "The I-Could-Only-Have-Made-More-
>Errors-if-I-Had-Introduced-More-Information Guide to Zyklon B."
>
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	Zyklon B was a product designed for the explicit purpose of
>>fumigation. This much seems to be accepted by both the Holocaust side
>>and the revisionist side.
>
>One right.
>
>>	The active ingredient in the product was Hydrocyanic Acid-
>>(HCN).  
>>	The product is said to have come in various forms. Some
>>testimonies refer to "pellets", "granules", "powder" and at one time
>>"gas". 
>
>>	The product brochure states it is HCN mixed with a chemical
>>that has evaporative qualities and suspended in an absorbant medium.
>
>I wonder why they would mix HCN with another product that evaporates.
>HCN evaporates quite well on its own.

	Then you say the cited patents are wrong or the ones who
posted the contents of the patents are wrong? Actually prussic acid
has a .9 ratio to air 1.0 by density suspension rate, thus it is not
all that capable on its own to be lifted into the air for circulation.


>>The medium as described is either a wood fibre, diacom gravel or a
>>silica gel. The first one we would suppose was compressed into
>>pellets, and the silica gel we liken to something like a dense
>>vermiculite. The diacom gravel was probably some kind of pourous
>>stone.
>
>No. The three media were wooden discs, diatomaceous earth, and silica
>gel.
>
>The first one, if compressed at all, was compressed into discs. Silica
>gel is not "something like a dense vermiculite." Silica gel is silica
>gel, and it can be manufactured in pellets of various sizes. Have you
>ever seen silica gel? Yes, you have, you probably just don't know that
>you have. Have you ever bought a camera or a pair of binoculars or
>anything like that? You know those little packets of pellets that come
>with such products? They contain silica gel. Common as houses.
>Diatomaceous earth is earth made up of the tiny bodies of creatures
>know as diatoms. Dead or alive they, like silsica gel, soak up amazing
>amounts of moisture. These microscopic darlings also produce most of
>the oxygen that we breathe.
>
>>	It is conceivable that the different forms might have had
>>different release rates, and thus meant to be used for certain
>>applications. The silica gel form is reported to have been chunks 1cm
>>to 2cm in dimension. The pellets are reported to be disc shaped. Size
>>unknown.   
>
>Sort of "chunk discs?" Or are you also talking about the wood pellets
>that you invented above?
>
>>	It is interesting that no general Holocaust books donate any
>>lengthy discussion on the product since it is the source of the
>>centermost topic of the Holocaust story - gas. The gas.
>
>It is interesting that no general Wars of the Roses books donate any
>lengthy discussion on swords since it is the source of the centermost
>topic of the Wars of the Roses story - the swords. Killing with
>swords.

	Yikes. But then noone is trying to dirty the history of the
those in the War of the Roses. Get this straight Morris, your activity
is dedicated to making the Germans history ugly. When you propose
something and it is chaollenged you better come back with something
straight foward.

>Auschwitz has become symbolic of the whole Holocaust, but, at 1.1
>million victims, Auschwitz only accounts for one fifth of the victims.
>The whole story is much larger than Auschwitz or gas chambers. I
>suspect that deniers focus on Auschwitz because it has become symbolic
>of the whole Holocaust, but I also suspect that they focus on
>Auschwitz because of their profound ignorance of other aspects of the
>the Holocaust.
>
>No one debates whether swords can actually be used to kill people and
>then use that as proof that the Wars of the Roses never occurred: the
>Wars o the Roses are known to have occurred by other means than by
>trying to figure out if swords kill people. Similarly, historians have
>not debated whether poison gas can be used to kill people, since the
>Holocaust is known to have occurred by other means than by trying to
>figure out whether people can be killed by poison gas. The entire
>technical debate was introduced by deniers to sidestep the real issues
>of history, and it is only answered by the rest of us because false
>information has to be refuted.
>
>>	"Gassing off" seems to be a term used to describe the process
>>of Zyklon B. A more familiar term would be something like
>>'evaporation'.
>
>Remarkable deduction, Sherlock.
>
>(Why does this remind me of the peasants struggling their way to the
>conclusion, "If she weighs as much as a duck, she must be a witch"?)
>
>>               The HCN is mixed with a evaporative liquid then used to
>>dampen something like saw dust, which is then pressed into pellets, or
>>ready made pellets pressure impregnated. 
>
>I don't think so. You are suggesting that a highly evaporative liquid
>like HCN is mixed with sawdust and the pressed into pellets. I rather
>think that the HCN would all have evaporated and killed the workers
>before they could make the pellets.

	He thinks they would all being doing it by hand out in the
open. Desperate.
>
>>                                       The rate of evaporation would
>>be basically contingent on the evaporating material, like a solvent
>>and the denseness of the medium. Pour some laquer thinner on a plate
>>and an equal amount of say, paint thinner on another plate and you
>>will notice a distinct difference in the evaporation rate. Thus
>>identification of the evaporating substance would have a lot to do
>>with the rate of "gassing" off.
>
>So *this* is how you eat! Did you not know that these substances are
>far and away more toxic than Chicken in Raspberry Tarragon Cream?
>
>But seriously, where ever did you get the idea that HCN has to be
>mixed with an "evaporative substance?" It evaporates very rapidly on
>its own.
>
>>	The size and shape of any pellets would also have a lot to do
>>with how fast its captured HCN would be emitted. The more surface
>>area, the more area for the HCN to migrate to and evaporate from. How
>>thick where the pellets?  Who knows, no one seems to want to discuss
>>it. Since it is stated that the product came in three different
>>mediums, we might get the idea that each one had its own
>>charactersitics as to the rate of evaporation. 
>
>If she weighs as much as a duck, . . .	
>
>
>>	Temperature would most definetly be a factor in evaporation
>>rate. The warmer the air or the Zyklon B the more active the
>>molecules, thus the higher the rate of exchange from the damp stage to
>>vapor. The Harmon report* cites the manufacturers manual on Zyklon B
>>as saying that temperature is not so critical excepting that the
>>recommended time of fumigation is twice the time if below 5 degrees
>>centigrade, whereas Pressac states that the HCN will only gas above 32
>>degrees centigrade and he goes into some length to say the chambers
>>were heated.
>
>Oh dear. The boiling temperature of HCN is a mere 27 degrees
>centigrade.
>
>>	"Zyklon B"? "B"? Is there a Zyklon A, or just a plain Zyklon?
>>Interesting question.
>
>Not really.
>
>>	Well, whatever. 
>
>Yeah, whatever.
>
>>                 The only thing I could come up with after
>>doing this little research was the legitimate question:
>> WHY DIDN'T THE MASS MURDERERS USE THE PRODUCT IN ITS LIQUID FORM? 
>
>WHY DIDN'T THE MASS MURDERERS TIE STICKS OF DYNAMITE TO THEMSELVES AND
>JUST BLOW UP THE JEWS?
>
>>	Any introduction of the liquid product into the gas chambers
>>would have resulted in rapid evaporation all at once, much more
>>efficient and easier than opening all those little cans and having to
>>sweep up all the expended slow release pellets which would still hold
>>50% or more of the product.
>
>Yeah, all at once. Right into the faces of the guys trying to pour the
>stuff into the induction holes.
>
>The weakest proof possible is that somebody could think of an easier
>way to have done something: in nice weather I walk to the store to buy
>a loaf of bread which must prove that I have never bought bread in
>nice weather because it is easier to drive. But pouring pure HCN
>through the induction holes does not strike me as an easier way of
>doing anything.
>
>>	*For a more exausting study on hydrocyanic acid check out
>>McVay's posting of Harmon's report under "Cyanide, Zyklon-B & Mass
>>Murder" and Green's report, posting unknown, but I believe its out
>>there. These studies will give you the deepest details right down to
>>the chromodynamic level of quantum physics, and the effects of black
>>holes on Zyklon B.  
>
>There, there, Mr. Moran. Don't feel too bad. Even I have trouble
>following the details of the chemistry. But then, I've never claimed
>to know anything about chemistry.
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 19:40:24 PST 1996
Article: 24087 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:31:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>	It is interesting that no general Holocaust books donate any
>>lengthy discussion on the product since it is the source of the
>>centermost topic of the Holocaust story - gas. The gas.
>
>I seem to recall your indignantly informing us that you couldn't be 
>bothered to read any "Holocaust books" at all. Suddenly you've become 
>such an expert that you know that none of the "general" ones (whatever 
>that means) devote "lengthy" discussion to this topic. Which books have 
>you checked for this particular, rather technical lacuna?
>
>>	"Zyklon B"? "B"? Is there a Zyklon A, or just a plain Zyklon?
>>Interesting question.
>
>If it's that interesting for you, find the answer. Frankly, I don't find 
>it particularly interesting.
>
>>	Well, whatever. The only thing I could come up with after
>>doing this little research was the legitimate question:
>> WHY DIDN'T THE MASS MURDERERS USE THE PRODUCT IN ITS LIQUID FORM? 
>
>Try this question: Why was the product manufactured in solid form at all? 
>The supposed advantages of using it in liquid form would apply to any 
>uses, mass murder or simple fumigation--the latter moreso, since a higher 
>concentration of gas would be needed to kill insects. Obviously, there 
>were some advantages to the solid form. I'd suggest that there were 
>probably considerations of safety and ease of handling. (Of course, your 
>question presupposes that there was a "liquid form". I didn't notice any 
>evidence to that effect in your post.)

	The evidence is in the Harmon report on manufacturers patents.
Liquid. Maybe if you disagree, you will come back and inform everyone
how the HCN was incorporated into the medium.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 18 19:40:25 PST 1996
Article: 24088 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:34:14 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>         According to Brian Harmon's report presented to the group
>> under "Cyanide, Zyklon-B & Mass Murder" posted by Mc Vay, the Germans
>> built two of the crematoria gas chambers under ground so the SS could
>> get on the roof to pour in the Zyklon B.
>
>And why precisely is this indicative of "Stupid Germans"?
>
>We've been over this many times before.  I recall asking Ross Vicksell
>of CODOH if he couldn't think of any reasons why the gas chambers would
>be built underground.  When he didn't offer any, I typed up a list of
>six or eight of them, off the top of my head.  Perhaps Mr. Moran would
>like to try his hand?

	Bomb shelters. Storage.

>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 19 08:37:45 PST 1996
Article: 24194 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Admits He is a Gutless Liar
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:59:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>  >>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  >>
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  	Photos would be fine. WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS?
>>  >> 
>>  >>>>>
>>  >	You have been told before.  The photos can be obtained from the 
>>  >Jewish National Fund in New York which has operated the tree planting 
>operation 
>>  >since the Mandate was established.  Why have you not contacted them for 
>the 
>>  >photos?  More to the point why are you asking others to do *your* 
>homework?
>>  
>>  	Doesthis mean you have contacted the group and they say yes,
>>  they have the photos? Is this the same group that made the exaggerated
>>  claims in the first place?
>
>
>	No this is the group that planted the trees.
>
>>  	ATTENTION; Anyone wanting to know if the Jews planted
>>  200,000,000 trees or not go to the library and see if you can find any
>>  photos that would support it.
>
>	I did.  The Allentown Public Library has a plethora of them.

	He did, but he didn't bother to give any titles of the
sources, which he is always harping on. He thinks it is sufficient to
just say he went and found some. WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS?
>
>>  	Anyway Yale and all the rest, thank you for the endorsement of
>>  the other post under Zioexaggerations by focusing on this one. 
>
>
>	No you lying little scumbag.  There is no "endorsement" for any of your 
>lies.  This one was just such an outrageously easy one to dispute.  What 
>everyone has said is that you are a cowardly little bigot who can't support a 
>single one of his Moronic claims.  On the other hand, when one of your Moronic 
>challenges was accepted you did not even bother to respond (except with a lie). 
> I take it this is an "endorsement" of those who have pointed out that you are a 
>liar and an anti-Semite.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 19 08:37:45 PST 1996
Article: 24199 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:08:21 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	First of all Jamie, the post is directed explicitly towards
>>Harmon's two or three times reiterated statement that they were built
>>under ground so the Germans could get on the roof. The facts of it all
>>is right here on the group.
>
>Mr. Harmon did not give us a statement of fact as to why the KII
>and KIII gas chambers were built underground, but an
>interpretation. You can, I trust, tell the difference: that
>something was done is a fact; why it was done is an
>interpretation.
>
>I offer a different interpretation which you seem able to answer
>only by repeating yourself. Does my interpretation make any sense
>to you? If not, why not?
>
>Here it is from the other thread:
>
>   When the Kremas II and III were originally proposed for
>   Birkenau, the plan was to use them strictly as crematoria. The
>   underground chambers were to be used as morgues. At that time,
>   the plan was also to use the Bunkers as gas chambers. Sometime
>   during construction, but before they were finished, the SS
>   realized that it would be more efficient to gas people in the
>   same building rather than to transport the corpses to the
>   burning site.
>
>   While it is somewhat inefficient to kill people underground
>   and then to transport their bodies up to ground level for
>   burning, that is what the SS did, because they were stuck with
>   buildings which were partially completed and already months
>   behind schedule. Their answer to this particular inefficiency
>   was to install freight elevators.
>
>   Because of the experience they gained with Kremas II and III,
>   they planned and built Kremas IV and V with ground-level gas
>   chambers and crematoria. Kremas IV and V were purpose-built as
>   killing installations. Kremas II and III evolved into killing
>   installations.
>
>   For the details of this evolution please read. Van Pelt "Site
>   in Search of a Mission" in the _Anatomy_, pp. 93-156. Don't
>   skip the first part of the article on accommodations and
>   latrines. It is more important than you might think.

	All this did nothing to deny that Harmon, three times in his
report, cited that the chambers were built underground to facilitate
access to the roof, does it?
	What you have given really is a bunch of deus ex machina
mumblings. Where are the plans for Kremas IV and V? Its always some
kind of testimony or interpretation of some document, and never
founded on forthright reconstructions perfornmed by anyone. 


>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 19 08:37:46 PST 1996
Article: 24200 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Moran (was Re: Stupid Germans)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:16:31 GMT
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mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <312745f8.7630510@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>	Wait a minute, just one second now, I forgot something, aren't
>>these buildings alleged to have been built for the purpose of
>>extermination?
>
>    Sort of.  They were definitely built for the purpose of disposing of 
>dead bodies.  Lots and lots and lots of dead bodies.
>
	I will add this to "Some Holocaust Facts", 'Sometimes it is
said the crematoriums were built expressly for the purpose of mass
extermination and sometimes it is said they weren't.'


>>We are talking about Kremas II and III aren't we Yale?
>
>    Yes. 
>
>
>>Are these the ones your referring to, or are you and Morris suddenly
>>sleighting the topic over to the claims of "Krema I"? Are you saying
>>these Kremas II, III, IV and V were built for something else and were
>>then availed upon to use as extermination facilities?
>
>    That is the theory of Robert-Jan Van Pelt.  His specialty is
>architecture.  He looked at all the design drawings and the changes they
>made along the way.  Originally the underground rooms really did seem to
>be designed as morgues for holding bodies before cremation.  They had
>corpse chutes where they could drag bodies and then dump them down the
>chutes.  Fast.  Easy.  Simple. 
>
>    But later the design changed.  Those stupid Germans got rid of that
>nice convenient corpse chute and instead made it necessary to drag the
>bodies down the stairs and carry them all the way into the "morgue," 
>inefficiently wasting effort and complicating the process of getting the
>bodies into the morgue.
>
>    So why did they eliminate the nice easy corpse chute from the design,
>Tommy, and complicate the process of putting bodies in the morgue while 
>waiting for cremation?
>
>    Well, maybe they really were just stupid.
>
>    Or maybe they thought of an even easier way to get corpses into the
>morgue.  After all, it would be much easier if the corpses could be
>persuaded to walk into the morgue by themselves.  Then you wouldn't even
>have to drag them as far as the chute.  Except if they could walk, that
>means that they weren't corpses.  Or at least they weren't corpses before
>they went into the morgue.  But then, that would mean that the room wasn't
>your normal kind of morgue, where the people who go in are already dead.
>
>    Why _do_ you need a gas-tight door for a morgue, anyway?  And where
>_are_ the drawings showing the plumbing for the showerheads listed on the
>inventory sheet? 
>
>    Posted and emailed not only to Tom Moran, but to Jeff Roberts, who is
>also invited to explain why the Germans eliminated the nice fast
>convenient corpse chute from the design of that perfectly innocent morgue. 

	Corpse chute? All this breaks down to a corpse chute? You must
have really burned yourself out coming up with this.

>-- 
>Mike Yale Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 19 08:37:47 PST 1996
Article: 24202 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: LIE Guide to ZYKLON B? (was: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:25:44 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># The pellets were designed for slow release, to take effect
># over a extended period of time, 
>
>Says who?
>
>Perhaps you should call your article "LIE guide to Zyklon-B"?
>
># evidentally so it would have time to work on the intended target, 
># lice and lice eggs, whereas the alleged process of killing the 
># human beings was intended to get it over with quickly.
>
>Dr. Ulrich Roessler, who often posts to this group, looked at
>the original Zyklon patents in Germany. What they say seems
>to totally contradict what you say above. Again, what is your
>source? Please, do not quote other "revisionists", give a hard
>source.

	The source is the described product. Are you saying the
product wasn't designed for slow release? Lets make it easier on you,
Are you saying the product wasn't designed for gradual/extended
release? We can do away with the word "slow".

	"Please do not quote other "revisionists", give a hard
source"? 
	"Revisionists" in quotes? What does that mean? "Hard" source?
What does that mean?
	Maybe you haven't noticed, but I rarely "quote" or even cite
revisionsits, I tend to quote, cite  and comment on Holocaust claims.
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 19 08:37:48 PST 1996
Article: 24206 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:38:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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bharmon@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Brian Harmon) wrote:

> 
>
>In article <3125f47e.4796270@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	The evidence is in the Harmon report on manufacturers patents.
>>Liquid. Maybe if you disagree, you will come back and inform everyone
>>how the HCN was incorporated into the medium.
>
>Tom, I can't remember writing a report on 'manufacturer's patents.'
>Perhaps you could be more specific, privide a quote or two.
>
>As i understand it, Zyklon-B consists of liquid HCN adsorbed
>to a solid carrier along with a chemical irritant.  Someone
>has the original Zyklon Patent, i believe, perhaps they 
>could shed some light on this issue.

	Sorry, I could have gotten your extended commentary, including
your discussion on the manual mixed up with another post on the
patent. I believe it may have been Green, who seems to agree it was
incorporated into the mediums via liquid form. Cyanide can be active
in the liquid form since it is used to amalgomate ores. In fact it was
used for the first time, extensively in Virginia City, Nev., a century
ago, where they had huge thousand gallon vats of the stuff.  

>-- Brian Harmon
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 19 08:37:49 PST 1996
Article: 24207 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:46:40 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>[alt.censorship removed from distribution for obvious reasons]
>
>In article <3125eb59.2455696@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>"McVay's post "Cyanide, Zyclone-B & Mass Murder" where he has posted a
>paper by Harmon who four times implies that the figure for Auschwitz is
>2.5 million or more."
>
>>>That wasn't what Harmon's paper said or implied.  
>
>>	Readers, besides McFee, go to the post cited above and see for
>>your self. Actually you can go to the thread where Tom Moran has
>>pointed them out along the way.
>
>Let's take Mr. Moran's advice, and re-examine URL
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide cyanide.001
>
>                TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF THE HOLOCAUST:
>                Cyanide, Zyklon-B, and Mass Murder
>
>                       Brian Harmon
>
>[Non-relevant material snipped - see the URL noted above for
>the entire article]
>
>situations, even at very low temperatures. I will then present 
>a "hypothetical gassing", where I will run some basic 
>calculations showing how easily a large number of people 
>(about 1.8 million) could be killed in one and one half years 
>with only one gassing a day.  Comparing this with documents on 
>
>[There's the first number cited - 1.8 million. Extensive
>chemical analysis follows, then...]
>
>    With only one gassing a day, plenty of time will be left 
>for ventilating the gas chamber and moving the bodies to the 
>crematoria for combustion. The next question is, given one 
>gassing a day and four gas chambers at the camp, how many 
>people can be killed in a time period of one and one half 
>years (18 months)?  I chose this time period since the four 
>large extermination facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau were in 
>operation from 1943 until their destruction by the fleeing 
>Nazis in November 1944 {19}.  For the sake of argument, I'll 
>say that's about 1 1/2 years (May 1943 to Nov. 1944).
>
>    If the gas chambers were in operation for 548 days (1 1/2 
>yrs), the total dead would be:
>
>        (840)*(4)*(548) = 1,841,280 dead from gassing alone.
>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    Most estimates say that 1 to 2 million died at Auschwitz 
>altogether, including deaths from starvation, torture, summary 
>execution, and medical experiments.  Clearly then, based upon 
>my largely hypothetical example, it was both possible and 
>feasible to murder that many, even in a fairly short time 
>scale of 584 days with just four working gas chambers.  In the 
>case of Auschwitz, an even shorter time of operation would be 
>necessary as not all of the 1.6 million were murdered in the 
>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>four main gas chambers.  Executions by firing squad and 
>gassings in the makeshift Bunkers I and II were also carried 
>out.  Also, many more died from starvation, torture, and 
>disease. 
>
>[snip - no numbers. descriptions of gassings follow... then,
>another number, from the "Conclusion and Summary" section]
>
>    There are also documents discussing exactly how many 
>people could be killed, and how many bodies could be cremated 
>in a given day.  For example, Ho"ss mentions that a maximum 
>number of 10,000 people could be gassed in a given day (note 
>that this is the number _gassed_, not cremated.) A letter sent 
>to Berlin, addressed to SS General Kammler mentions that the 
>total number of bodies that could be processed in one day as 
>4,756 {24}. Note that this figure includes cremation of the 
>bodies as well as gassing. Based on this document, a total of 
>2.6 million people could be murdered and their corpses 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>["Could be," Mr. Moran, not "were." Do you understand the
>difference?]

	Yes. "Were" is a definite statement and "could be" is a
implied statement.

>disposed of in just one and one half years (548 days).  This 
>is hardly a poor generalization, as the major extermination 
>facilities at Auschwitz went on line in late 1942 (Krema II 
>and III) and mid 1943 (Krema IV and V) {25}.     
>
>    Based on the figures in the letter, my numbers generated 
>from the "hypothetical gassing" may err on the side of 
>caution.   Note that I am not claiming that 2.5 million plus 
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>["Note that I am not claiming," Mr. Moran. Do you understand
>the meaning of that phrase?]
>
>were killed at Auschwitz, as I do not know the exact figure.  
>It should be self evident that the murder of about 1 to 2 
>million people in these camps (or even more) was not 
>only feasible, it was well documented.  There are many more 
>volumes of documents on the Holocaust, and one need merely 
>search their local library to find many volumes of them.  

	He was "not claiming" but "1 to 2 million ... (or even more)
was ... well documented".

	When he said "even more" was he talking about the "1" million
or the "2" million? What exactly is "well documented"? 
	Actually this is kind of hilarious, "1 or 2 million" "well
documented".

>==end cited bits== 
>
>Now, Mr. Moran, let us re-examine your original statement:
>
>   "McVay's post "Cyanide, Zyclone-B & Mass Murder" where he 
>    has posted a paper by Harmon who four times implies that 
>    the figure for Auschwitz is 2.5 million or more."
>
>Rather than Mr. Harmon "implying" what you say he implies, Mr.
>Moran, I'd say that it is _crystal_clear_ that he does no such
>thing. 
>
>Rather than postulating a figure of "2.5 million or more," Mr.
>Moran, it would seem that, in the _first_ instance, Mr. Harmon
>demonstrates "how easily" up to 1.8 million could have been
>killed. Your statement fails.
>
>In the _second_ instance, he repeats that figure, 1.8 million,
>as a clear possibility. Not fact, Mr. Moran, clear
>possibility. Not 2.5 million, Mr. Moran, but 1.8 million. Your
>statement fails.
>
>In the third instance, we see Mr. Harmon claim that 1.6
>million were _killed_ at Auschwitz, Mr. Moron (not gassed -
>"killed" - there is a difference), not 2.5 million. Your
>statement fails.
>
>In the _forth_ instance, we finally find a number large enough
>to support, at least initially, Mr. Moran's assertion: 2.6 
>million. But what does Mr. Harmon say about this figure? That
>"..2.6 million people COULD be murdered,"  but Mr. Harmon, in
>the _fifth_ instance, makes it abundantly clear that
>"... I am not claiming that 2.5 million plus were killed at 
>Auschwitz, as I do not know the exact figure." In short, Mr.
>Moran, your statement fails.
>
>In the _fifth_ instance, we find Mr. Harmon making the
>following statement: "It should be self evident that the murder 
>of about 1 to 2 million people in these camps (or even more) was 
>not only feasible, it was well documented." "1 to 2 million,"
>Mr. Moran, not 2.5 million or more. Your statement fails.
>
>Five instances of victim totals, five failures for Mr. Moran.
>
>...which simply goes to demonstrate that very little in life
>is new, and Mr. Moran hasn't learned to read carefully yet.
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                    Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca 
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 19 08:37:49 PST 1996
Article: 24208 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:53:51 GMT
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roger@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) wrote:

>In article <31272dc6.1436618@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>
>>>>In article <4g4lf9$b1g@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:>
>>>>Mr. McVay did something you clearly are incapable of understanding.  He
>>>>wrote a well researched piece with references.  I might have figured that
>>>
>>>
>>>What else can we expect?
>>>
>>>>>	On top of all this, McVay's page still to this day presses
>>>>>higher numbers than what is accepted - even unto 4 million or more.
>>>
>>>"Accepted" by whom, Mr. Moran?
>
>>	Simon Wiesenthal for one.
>
>Really?  A citation would be nice.  Tell us what Wiesenthal
>says, and when he said it.  Then tell us how this fits with your
>claims.

	Go look at his page. "Response to Revisionists" No. 13.

>
>Roger Lustig
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 19 11:54:14 PST 1996
Article: 24220 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:59:30 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <31272dc6.1436618@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>>>	On top of all this, McVay's page still to this day presses
>>>>>higher numbers than what is accepted - even unto 4 million or more.
>
>>>"Accepted" by whom, Mr. Moran?
>
>>	Simon Wiesenthal for one.
>
>Please provide the SWC estimates, then demonstrate that those
>estimates ever included the Polish-Communist number of
>4-million Auschwitz victims, Mr. Moran.
>
>What? You are unable to do that?

 	Your page still makes the claim in it's own way. I didn't say
Wiesenthal agrees, I said even his page doesn't make the claim. Thats
what they have you for. To keep up with the old claims, implied or
stated, so they can have someone to flim flam the unaware to think the
old story still exists without being directly involved. 
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                    Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca 
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>   Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 20 09:58:43 PST 1996
Article: 24296 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: STUPID GERMANS III
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:16:58 GMT
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	Even though, according to Holocaust facts, the Germans had
murdered almost a million at Treblinka two years before, and had at
first buried their bodies in pits, only to realize they would have to
do away with the evidence and dug them up again, burned them and then
reburied the ashes, the Germans ended up doing the same thing at
Auschwitz, where Holocaust facts have it that hundreds of thousands
were murdered in "bunkers 1 and 2", buried, dug up, burned and the
ashes disposed of.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 23 07:12:44 PST 1996
Article: 24691 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Kids Stay Cozy in Gas Chambers
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:38:57 GMT
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	 "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"

	"Jehuda Bacon was a 14-year-old member of the truck commando
who had to retrieve ashes from the crematoria to spread onto the the
icy paths during winter. He saw horrible events there, but also got to
know Kalman Furman, who was always friendly to the teens and ready to
help. Bacon remembers the '"Aryan"' kapo Jozef Ilezuk--a teacher who
allowed children, upon completion of their work, to warm themselves in
an empty gas chamber."

	Well, that certainly is a paragraph full. What a inferrence a
paragraph can make. Wow.

	Does this mean that kids played a role in the process of the
exterminations? Seems so.
	How much did he get to see of the operation while going in and
out to get the ashes? "He saw horrible events there".
	Where did the kids go after the shift of duty? Since this tale
is a continuation of the book's stating how the sondercommando got to
make discrete contact at times with the general prisoner population we
might assume the kids just went back to their barracks. They didn't
say anything because the SS told them all the "horrible things" were
to be kept a secret.
	Does this statement say they used the ashes to keep people
>from  slipping on the icy walk ways? Yikes. But hold it. What about
those stories about the ashes had to be further pulverized to
obliterate any solid remains? Well good thing, what with spreading the
remains around on icy paths all over camp we couldn't have any signs
of what it might really be.
	Are we to believe that the kids were taken or allowed to go to
the gas chamber cellars to warm up? Do they mean they went through the
rooms to the stairs, down the stairs to the gas chambers to get warm?
But what about the heat from the raging or idling burnings of multiple
furnaces in the cremation area? You'd think it would be pretty warm in
there. But then with all those dead bodies stacked up, as the story
goes, maybe there wasn't any room for them to stand.
	The Holocaust story says the cellar chambers were aired out
after each mass murder, which would tend to make them about as cold as
the outside. Oh', the chambers were heated the story could go?  But
then the story tells how hot buckets of coke were used to heat the
cellar chambers for the mass gassing, coke itself giving off carbon
monoxide, so it wouldn't have been used to heat the chambers just for
the children. 
	Since the Holocaust story has the sondercommandos themselves
using the gas chambers as living quarters, when they weren't in use of
course, we might suppose they and the kids all sat around and had
chats. Or maybe something like 'Hey you kids, shut up. We're trying to
sleep'.

	Yup. Something wacky on every page of a Holocaust book.  




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 23 07:12:44 PST 1996
Article: 24692 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: technically impossible
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:39:08 GMT
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	According to an Allied photo of Birkenau, taken May 31, 1944,
and presented in the book "The Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"
crematoria II is located in the southwest corner of the camp with the
length of the building running almost east to west. On pg. 136 a photo
is shown and identified as Crematoria II. The picture is taken from
the back side of the building from about 100 yds. and we can see in
the foreground a series of wide trenches running parallel to the
building with walk ways going across them, thus giving us the general
co-ordinates from which to determine from where the photo was taken.
	 The photo appears to have been taken from about 100 yds. away
>from  a point that would extend out perpendicular from a point on the
building that would be towards it's left (west) end.
	 The photo caption directs us to take note of the barracks of
BA II (main block of mens barracks) off in the far distance and on the
horizon to the right. 
	Going back to the aerial photo of the camp general and putting
in a point that would represent the photographers stand point, and
then holding a straight edge to that point and to the right corner of
the building (everything to the left would be obscurred) we can see
that a line projected from the photographers stand point to the corner
and then past to the distance would not show the same thing the close
up photo of the crematoria shows. Try it.
	This would mean that this particular building was not located
at the spot on the aerial photograph that is held to be the site of
crematorium II.
	Another problem for the match up is that the "sedimentation
basin" shown in the close up, a quite extensive system, does not
appear on the aerial photo. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 23 07:12:45 PST 1996
Article: 24693 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS III
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:39:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein) wrote:

>In article <3129f77e.11505908@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>
>>	Even though, according to Holocaust facts, the Germans had
>>murdered almost a million at Treblinka two years before, and had at
>>first buried their bodies in pits, only to realize they would have to
>>do away with the evidence and dug them up again, burned them and then
>>reburied the ashes, the Germans ended up doing the same thing at
>>Auschwitz, where Holocaust facts have it that hundreds of thousands
>>were murdered in "bunkers 1 and 2", buried, dug up, burned and the
>>ashes disposed of.
>
>    I'd really like to see a source for this.  Not that Tommy is ever going to
>provide one, and if he does by some miracle provide one it won't support his
>claim, but I would like to see a source for this.  (The digging up I don't
>dispute; it's the when and how many that I question.)

	What "when"?  And what numbers are you sniding about, the ones
at Treblinka, Auschwitz or both. 


>    Posted/emailed.
>-- 
>"K'firim rashu v'ra'eivu."



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 23 07:12:46 PST 1996
Article: 24694 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revisionists rob Swiss banks
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:39:51 GMT
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EEGG87A@prodigy.com (A Huber) wrote:

>Date: Thursday, 22-Feb-96 07:37 AM
>
>_Senate Investigates "Victims'" Assets_ (ANA)
>
>Senator Alfonse D'Amato, the chairman of the US Senate Banking Committee,
>
>said today (2/21/96) that the committee was opening an investigation 
>into
>the amount of unclaimed assets in Swiss banks that are said to belong to
>"victims" of the "holocaust."  D'Amato said he wanted to get an account 
>of
>all the assets to which the heirs are entitled and he wanted to examine 
>how
>the banks handled the accounts.  In a letter asking the US Holocaust 
>Museum
>in Washington for assistance D'Amato wrote "I am greatly concerned that 
>the
>most recent accounting of these assets concluded by Swiss banks may be
>inadequate, especially in light of the potential number of claims and
>claimants."  Yesterday a delegation of the World Jewish Congress (WJC) 
>asked
>Swiss officials to aid in a search for the assets.  Israel Singer, 
>secretary
>general of the WJC, said "I appealed to the Swiss parliamentary
>committee...this is no longer a question that [the Swiss Bankers
>Association] is going to be able to take up by itself."

	See "Exaggerated claims exposed" for the initial report on
this. It is no surprise that D'Amato is the one to come to the cause.
He is well known for his loyalty to Jewish causes - above and beyond
the needs and interests of the people of the United States.

>
>Written by Anton H., ANA Assistant Editor
>
>
>
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Feb 23 13:57:07 PST 1996
Article: 24723 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: LIE Guide to ZYKLON B? (was: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:59:21 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
>Moran, I asked you a very simple question: what is your source for
>the assertion that Zyklon releases the HCN slowly?
> 
>You said it, right? So someone must have told you that, or 
>perhaps you read it somewhere. So? 
> 
>You obviously can't answer, right? 
	I'm starting to relize you use this question/answer practice
with regularity.

># Keren posted the above and another as to the rate of HCN
># escaping in the first half hour, which he posted as 40% or 
># somewhat higher
> 
>No, the 40% figure was given by "leading revisionist", Germar
>Rudolph. The figure given by Dr. Roessler, who studied the
>Zyklon patents, point to a faster rate.

	"A faster rate" could be 41%. The very nature of the product
shows it to have been designed for a release over a certain extended
time, as opposed to immediate.

># I don't even have to challenge this at this time, it could be
># much less.
> 
>You "don't even have to challenge this", yet you say it could
>be much less? Have you completely lost your mind?
> 
> 
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 00:17:07 PST 1996
Article: 32979 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news.jsums.edu!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!primus.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Clinton's 1st Act as Pres.
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:00:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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	Check the records for this.
	Clinton's very first policy act on becoming president in Jan.
1992 was to permit foreign people with AIDS into the nation. 
                                                      Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 07:59:00 PST 1996
Article: 24884 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:40:09 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <312496e4.2067047@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> Why don't you conduct a poll on your campus and see how many
>> people think 4 million were gassed at Auschwitz. My personal
>> experience is this is the number the masses have in their heads, and
>> it is this number compared to the new number that turns their ears to
>> the possibility the Holocaust is a myth. You believe what you want to
>> believe, its not going to change anything.
>
>
>Yet another Great Moment in Tommy "Because I Say So" Moronic's  self-delusion. 
>
>Tommy, your "personal experiance" shows you don't have a a real
>personality OR experiance. You are simply a denier puppet who's strings
>are pulled by bizzarre anti-Semitic prejudices. 

	I VAN ALSTINE HAVE SPOKEN. THIS IS ENOUGH. IT IS WHAT I SAY. I
DON'T NEED TO DETAIL THE SPECIFICS. IT IS ABSOLUTE.

>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 07:59:01 PST 1996
Article: 24889 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:40:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <312ca0fd.3220637@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> You say "obnoxious posts". Well, cite them and then deny them
>> with correction or superior reasons. Any you leave out I will take to
>> mean you accept as 'non-obnoxious'.
>
>Tommy, ALL your posts are obnoxious. Some are just MORE obnoxious than others. 
>
>>         You say you are chastised for speaking the truth, but does
>> anyone give a sweeping title like "neo-Nazi" or "racist"? If I put a
>> cloud over any history it is by citing the history. 
>
>I assume you meant to say that Mr. Katz is being chastized (by you?) for
>speaking the truth but nobody is calling him a neo-Nazi or racist for it,
>yes?  Well, Tommy, it might come as a suprise to you, but you see, Mr.
>Katz isn't being called a neo-Nazi or a racists because he isn't espousing
>neo-Nazi or racist ideals or rhetoric. He is simply telling the truth. 
>
>Your attempt, I assume, to allude that _you_ are called a neo-Nazi and a
>racist simply because you "put a cloud over any history" by "citing the
>history" misses a few salient points: You DON'T tell the truth. You lie,
>distort, dissimulate, and decieve. More importantly, however, is you do
>this in the attempt to discredit the established and accepted veracity of
>the Holocaust. Not to mention that you carry on with baseless and ad
>hominem attacks against Jews. 
>
>Perhaps this, instead, may have something to do with your feelings about
>being called a neo-Nazi and a racist? 
>
>> If you want to make the sun shine deal with the posts directly.
>
>Tommy, when people have dealt with your posts directly you simply dove
>head-first under the nearest rock. Do the words: menorah, amphibole,
>trees, mothballs, and "pasting" ring a bell, Tommy? 
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Not one single detailed argument. Not one single specific.
Nothing. I can only guess that you couldn't come up with anything.  



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 07:59:02 PST 1996
Article: 24898 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: STUPID GERMANS IV
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 15:05:12 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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	According to the Holocaust story, the Germans built
Crematorias II and III right at the end of the rail spur that went
into Birkenau. The buildings are said to have been located on each
side of the tracks about a hundred yards or so away. The story tells
us that the Germans had a series of crematoria planned out and/or it
kind of fell together, as contingencies developed.
	We can give the Germans credit for building the first two
right by the rail facility, but then it could have just been an
accidental quirk of luck, because they went on to build Crematorias IV
and V clear over on the other side of the camp, requiring transport
and/or marching the people by the thousands all the way over from the
rail facility.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 07:59:03 PST 1996
Article: 24899 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't going to believe me neither
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 15:05:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>
>>       But there, I might ask why fat wasn't flowing out of those bodies,
>>    streaming down slowly without being burn, why those droplets stayed
>>   in the body and burned there? The claim is, on a hand, that despite
>>   a part would have burn or soak on the soil, a large amount could
>>   flow out and this was suffisant to justify such a method of recovering
>>   by the germans. So why in Treblinka things were different?
>>   Why the disposal of layers in such a way was efficient in that case???
>
>
>Ah, the disease of the amateur historian: expect coherent
>behavior from all parties at all times in all instances.
       Here, let me show you a professional coherent response:
>Perhaps you could ask yourself this question: why did some
>euthanasia facilities gas their victims while others used an
>injection of phenol into the heart? Or do you also deny that
>there was a euthanasia program.
	Now you see what I mean. That was an example of relevant.
>So who knows why the didn't try to retain fat as a fuel at
>Treblinka? They probably didn't think of it. Treblinka closed in
>1943. The only accounts I know of where fat was used as a fuel
>were at Auschwitz in 1944 by which time petroleum fuels were at
>an even greater premium.
	So you see, they had plenty of fuel at Treblinka, but by 1944
they were short on fuel and this is why they got onto using body fat.
Whats the matter with you? Do you think the Germans were stupid?	
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 18:01:01 PST 1996
Article: 24914 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: technically impossible
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:37:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <312f3eaf.5764708@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	
>>	According to an Allied photo of Birkenau, taken May 31, 1944,
>>and presented in the book "The Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"
>>crematoria II is located in the southwest corner of the camp with the
>>length of the building running almost east to west. On pg. 136 a photo
>>is shown and identified as Crematoria II. The picture is taken from
>>the back side of the building from about 100 yds. and we can see in
>>the foreground a series of wide trenches running parallel to the
>>building with walk ways going across them, thus giving us the general
>>co-ordinates from which to determine from where the photo was taken.
>
>True enough so far.
>
>But what happens next?
>
>
>>	 The photo appears to have been taken from about 100 yds. away
>>from a point that would extend out perpendicular from a point on the
>>building that would be towards it's left (west) end.
>
>Okaaay. . .
>
>>	 The photo caption directs us to take note of the barracks of
>>BA II (main block of mens barracks) off in the far distance and on the
>>horizon to the right. 
>
>Yes. I see them.
>
>
>>	Going back to the aerial photo of the camp general and putting
>>in a point that would represent the photographers stand point, and
>>then holding a straight edge to that point and to the right corner of
>>the building (everything to the left would be obscurred) we can see
>>that a line projected from the photographers stand point to the corner
>>and then past to the distance would not show the same thing the close
>>up photo of the crematoria shows. Try it.
>
>Try it, and you will discover that Tom Moran is dyslexic.
>
>>	This would mean that this particular building was not located
>>at the spot on the aerial photograph that is held to be the site of
>>crematorium II.
>
>No. What this means is that you have oriented your ruler the
>wrong way. Since the orientation of the photographer in the
>ground level photograph is from southwest to northeast, you want
>to put your ruler down on the aerial photo according to the same
>orientation, soutwest to northeast.  As it happens, you will find
>that that BII is northeast of Krema II. Try it.

	This is correct. But, when you put the ruler down it will only
cross over two or three of the barracks far off in the distance,
whereas the close up photo of the crematorium II shows about seven of
them. Now I don't know if they are the same barracks in BII, do you?
>
>>	Another problem for the match up is that the "sedimentation
>>basin" shown in the close up, a quite extensive system, does not
>>appear on the aerial photo. 
>
>Now that is odd, because I can see the sedimentation basin (aka,
>sewage farm) quite clearly in the aerial photo. It might help you
>to look at the camp map on p. 15. See the item labeled "10.
>Sewage plant"? Do you see anything in the aerial photograph that
>looks similar? Perhaps that group of rectangles just south of the
>Krema?

	I figured someone would come out and try to say those images
south of the crematorium are trenches. First of all they don't
correspond in relative position to the close up. Second of all, they
certainly don't look like trenches. They look like buildings or
storage containers.


>I assume that the whole point of this post is to prove that the
>gif I posted for you could not possibly be of Krema II and that
>therefore you were right all along about your idea of the traffic
>flow in and out of the Krema II gas chamber.
>
>Me, I am at a loss to figure out why you are so intent on
>sticking to your story. It suggests desperation and a greater
>interest in your personal pride than in the truth.
>
>Would it help at all if I said there was no shame in not knowing
>something so long as you are willing to learn?
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 18:01:01 PST 1996
Article: 24915 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRUTAL THUGS KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:37:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <312f3edc.5809142@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL"  writes:
>>  
>>           AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS".
>> 
>>  
>>  The war department have shown the Judges personal report only to General 
>>  Lucius Clay, their military commander in Germany. Washington suspects the 
>>  reason was that it was too shocking for public disclosure. 
>>  
>>
>>  Question: 
>> 
>>>>>
>	This is a lie.  You know it is a lie.  You have continually printed this lie 
>even though it has been exposed as a lie time and again.  Lucius Clay, as has 
>been pointed out to you, has denied the truth of this report.  It is, at best, gossip 
>without factual base.  It is, at worst, anti-American propaganda.  The real question  
>-- the only question --  is why do continue to smear the American army which saved 
>your country with your discredited lies?

	Yale's method of setting the record straight.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 18:01:02 PST 1996
Article: 24916 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's fingers and Moran's toes
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:38:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <312f3ee9.5822873@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	You mean ask the same parties that posted the gross
>>  exaggeration to supply the proof. What if they send a photo of a stand
>>  of trees? How do I know they were planted? How would I know to what
>>  degree the photo(s) represent the 200,000,000? Why can't I just go to
>>  the library and look some up? Lets see some aerials. 200,000,000
>>  trees? Lets see a whole lot of aerials. 
>>  
>>>>>
>	The pictures are waiting for you at the Allentown Public Library.  It's 
>at 12th and Hamilton and is very hard to miss.  The pictures were very easy to 
>find.  There are lots of pictures there and a very kind librarian who will help 
>interpret then for you.  Her name is Rachelle (and she has read your posts).  
>Why don't you just go there and check?

	Are you saying the pictures only exist at the Allentown
Library? You mean you can't supply any titles? You mean everyone
should hop on a plane? Can they stay at your place while their laying
over?

>	--YFE   



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 18:01:03 PST 1996
Article: 24917 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:38:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <312f3efd.5842537@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4gghbe$f23@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes...
>>In article <4geksj$lbj@wi.combase.com>, Matt Giwer  wrote:
>
>>>>    Had I a dollar for everything Mr. Giwer has ever missed, I would be
>>>>quite wealthy.
>>>
>>>	Had you the same amount for everything you are unable to grasp
>>>you could pay for the education that would permit you to grasp it.
>> 
>>    No amount of schooling could permit me to grasp Mr. Giwer's twisted 
>>logic or syntax.
>
>    Actually, Marty Kelley seems to be studying such things in his doctoral
>    program, although his dissertation is on a subject only tangentially
>    related.  Marty has spoken to me about putting together a panel at a
>    professional meeting to discuss the discussion styles used in
>    alt.revisionism. And we have several doctoral students here in our
>    Communication department studying argumentation who have shown interest
>    in looking at argument structures used in alt.revisionism.  Maybe
>    someone will do a thesis on it someday.

	I would think any panel you guys put together might like to
selectively chose what you want to use as examples. Why don't we try
it out here?

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 18:01:05 PST 1996
Article: 24957 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:40:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <312ddfea.7691587@news.pacificnet.net>
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mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>In article <4gj2p1$59u@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) says:
>>
>>>   mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>> 
>>>       Look at the charges against Pat Buchanan simply because he
>>>  supported the innocent Demjanjuk?
>>>
>>        What a lie.  Why are you overlooking the fact that the man got on 
>>television and blamed the Gulf war on the Jews and, when questioned about it 
>>stated that Jews were starting a war in which non-Jews would die.
>

	Buchanan didn't say anything about "Jews" in regard to the
Gulf War. He said:
	"There are only two groups who want war with Iraq, the Israeli
Defense Ministry and it's amen corner here in the U.S."
	Of course it was the ultra sleazy Solarz who was at the head
of making war, along with Mel Levine, and there were 45 columns in the
N.Y. and L.A. Times calling for war, 43 of them by those who only make
up 2% of the U.S. population. What a coincidence, 45 articles and 43
were written by Jews.
	Could this be the amen corner Buchanan was talking about? Who
knows. It could have been the U.S. Congress. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 18:01:05 PST 1996
Article: 24958 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MAD DOG ATTACKS
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:40:36 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:


	"There is one small debate you can settle by telling the
truth.  It's about the yellow streak down your back.  Some say it's a
bright canary yellow.  Others think it is the dirty, dark yellow of
urine.  Please clear up this point L'il Tommy.  Exactly what kind of
coward are you?" 
	--YFE


	"Some say"?   "Others think"?  "Coward"? Whats the matter with
Mr. Edeiken, can't he go it alone?

	Would the "others" please sign on.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
etc.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 18:01:06 PST 1996
Article: 24959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.hnc.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: PRESSAC'S DELIBERATE FABRICATION:
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:40:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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"C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL"  wrote:

>
>Pressac, a holocaust liar, DELIBERATELY fabricates the visit of SS officer 
>Pohl to Auschwitz:
>
>Start Quote:- 
>
>[The Chief of the SS-WVHA, General of the SS Army Corps Pohl, presented 
>himself unexpectedly in morning of the 23rd of September at Auschwitz to 
>learn what was going  on, and where the assigned tons of Zyclon B were 
>going. Pohl went first to the Bauleitung, and had the general set-up of the 
>camp  explained to him, and the buildings that had been erected, those under 
>construction (including the four crematories of  Birkenau) and those planned 
>described to him. His question on Zyclon B was answered that with this 
>product the jews and the lice were destroyed at the same time.]
>
>
>Pressac's source for the above is the diary of Johann Kremer  published in 
>Auschwitz vu par le SS (Edition du Musee d'Etat a Oswiecim) [AUSCHWITZ 
>viewed by  the SS (Edition of the State Museum at Oswiecim 1974)], pages 233 
>and 234 (notes 182 and 183 on p. 105). 
>
>In reality, these two pages from the end of page 233 to the end of page 234, 
>read as follows:
>
>
>[In the morning, Obergruppenfuhrer Pohl arrived with his entourage, at the 
>residence of the Waffen SS. In front of the door a sentinel. For the first 
>time I am presented arms. The evening at 20 hours; dinner at the SS Officers 
>Club in the company of Obergruppenfuhrer  Pohl: a real feast. We were served 
>fried pike all we wanted, real coffee, an excellent beer and some 
>sandwiches.]
>
>That is all. the rest is the product of Pressacs imagination. 
>
>End Quote:
>
>from 
>
>Auschwitz: The End of a Legend, Page 50, by Carlo Mattogno,
>Available from :- The Institute of Historical Review    
>                  PO Box 2739,
>                  Newport Beach,
>                  California 92659,
>                  USA
>                  Cost  20 dollars.
>
>
	I would say this is what we would mostly find if all Holocaust
sources were checked. Grossly warped interpretations, misquotes, lies.

>
>
>-- 
>Jeff
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
>                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Feb 24 20:19:12 PST 1996
Article: 25000 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news1.vancouver.istar.net!news.vancouver.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: LIE Guide to ZYKLON B? (was: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:59:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <312ca0ec.3204049@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31248fcb.250238@news.pacificnet.net> <3125f20c.4171004@news.pacificnet.net> <4g5t20$enb@access2.digex.net> <312738f1.4295684@news.pacificnet.net>  <3128866f.2170141@news.pacificnet.net>  <3129ecd8.8779321@news.pacificnet.net> 
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> Are you saying the product wasn't designed for gradual/extended
>> release?
>
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>> The product was designed to "extend" the release of the gas over a
>> period of about ten minutes.
>>
>> Do you think that's "gradual," Mr. Moran?
>
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>         Jamie, I want you to say something stupid again before I
>> smother your terse little witty reply.  Are you saying all the HCN
>> suspended in the Zyklon B medium was released in ten minutes? You say
>> it was "designed" to release in ten minutes?    
>
>Permit me to repeat myself.
>
>The product, Zyklon-B, was designed to release all, or nearly all,
>of its HCN gas over a period of about ten minutes.
>
>Now, Mr. Moran, please proceed.

	According to a post by D. Keren, one study showed that Zyklon
B loses 40% of its suspended HCN in the first half hour, and according
to another study a bit more.

>Posted and emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:50 PST 1996
Article: 25057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:42:11 GMT
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	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to newer
accounts that are currently written in stone.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:51 PST 1996
Article: 25058 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Photo Facts
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:42:29 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Oh, oh. A new problem. The close up of "crematorium II" on pg.
136 of the Holocaust Museum sponsored book, "Anatmy of the Auschwitz
Death Camp" shows the chimney of the building to be located at the
center of the structure and appears to be about 8 feet higher than the
peak of the roof. This appears even in the shot taken from ground
level. If we should raise the camera angle up to the point level with
the peak the chimney would probably be shown to be a couple of feet
higher.
	In a photograph on about the twelth page of the main photo
presentaion in the same book, we are shown an end shot photograph of a
similar designed building identified as "crematorium II". In this shot
we can see that the chimney is only a couple of feet higher than the
peak of the roof. If we should consider a theoretical photo from the
same perspective as the other photo we would barely see a foot of the
chimney.
	A bigger problem for establishing these two photos as
representing the same building arises from the photographic fact that
the chimney appears to be only about twenty feet from the end in one
photo and in the other it looks like it should be 50 feet or more.






















lens distortion


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:52 PST 1996
Article: 25061 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: technically impossible
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 14:36:35 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <312dc377.409356@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>         According to an Allied photo of Birkenau, taken May 31, 1944,
>> and presented in the book "The Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"
>> crematoria II is located in the southwest corner of the camp with the
>> length of the building running almost east to west. On pg. 136 a photo
>> is shown and identified as Crematoria II. The picture is taken from
>> the back side of the building from about 100 yds. and we can see in
>> the foreground a series of wide trenches running parallel to the
>> building with walk ways going across them, thus giving us the general
>> co-ordinates from which to determine from where the photo was taken.
>>          The photo appears to have been taken from about 100 yds. away
>> from a point that would extend out perpendicular from a point on the
>> building that would be towards it's left (west) end.

>Time for a reality check, Tommy.
>
>The caption for the photo on page 136 reads:
>
>"Figure 18. Sedimentation basin of BA I, Auschwitz-Birkenau. Summer 1943.
>Source: Archive, Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum.
>North of the sedimentation basin we see crematorium II with its blackened
>chimney and, in the far distance, the barracks of BA II."
>
>Referencing _Air Photo Evidence_ (Ball), page 51 (Photo 3: August 25, '44)
>we can determine the distance the photo was taken to be about 120 ft.;
>assuming the photographer took the photo from the road adjacent to the
>middle of the south end of the sedimentation basin.
>
>>         The photo caption directs us to take note of the barracks of
>> BA II (main block of mens barracks) off in the far distance and on the
>> horizon to the right. 
>>         Going back to the aerial photo of the camp general and putting
>> in a point that would represent the photographers stand point, and
>> then holding a straight edge to that point and to the right corner of
>> the building (everything to the left would be obscurred) we can see
>> that a line projected from the photographers stand point to the corner
>> and then past to the distance would not show the same thing the close
>> up photo of the crematoria shows. Try it.
>
>I did. In Figure 18 one can see, at the base of the guard tower, the
>corner barracks of BA II in the far distance. Now, referencing _Air Photo
>Evidence_ (Ball), page 50 (Photo 2: September 13, '44) we can determine
>the distance from where the photo in Figure 18 was taken to the corner
>barracks of BA II to be about 1,155 ft. More importantly, the line of
>sight between where the photo was taken and the corner barracks is
>_unobscurred_, which is what the photo in Figure 18 shows. 
>
>Furthermore, from the position where Figure 18 was taken from Krema II
>obscures Krema III, which, based on Photo 2, is what we would expect as
>Krema III is directly north of (and therefore behind) Krema II. Also, as
>the corner barracks of BA II is near the right edge of the photo in Figure
>18 we could reasonably expect that the buildings of BA I, which are even
>further to the right, would be out of the photo's field of view in Figure
>18; which they are.  
>
>> This would mean that this particular building was not located
>> at the spot on the aerial photograph that is held to be the site of
>> crematorium II.
>
>No. Once again, Tommy, you are blowing smoke out your ass. Based on the
>photos I've cited, the position of Krema II checks out just fine and is
>right where any rational person could expect to find it. 
>
>>         Another problem for the match up is that the "sedimentation
>> basin" shown in the close up, a quite extensive system, does not
>> appear on the aerial photo. 
>
>More bullshit hallucinating on your part I'm afraid, Tommy. The ariel
>photographs (Photo 2 and Photo 3) _clearly_ show the sedimentation basin. 
>
>Whatever you've been smoking, Tommy, has clearly addled your tiny brain.
>
	Anyone wanting to check it out, check it out.

>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:53 PST 1996
Article: 25062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Krema II: Aerial View for Tom Moran - krema2.jpg (1/1)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:32:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <313080eb.6997664@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4g8nau$fuo@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4g9741$73o@wi.combase.com> <4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <324752587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4gocjk$298m@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <324752587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, Jeff 
>said:
>
>>
>>In article: <4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
>> (John Morris) writes:
>
>>[snip]
>
>
>>North IS to the Bottom of the picture. 
>>[air photo of August 25 1944, a FRIDAY] 
>
>>The vents have been drawn on. They are far too big in comparision. The
>>"fence" is in the wrong place, and far too wide. 
>>Too close to the pit and the morgue with the drawn on vents [top of
>>picture]. [cf below, or get the air photo of Sept 13th 1944 of Krema II
>>from me [Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk]. This has NO drawn on vents!}
>
>>The "possible cremation pit" is NOT burning "the backlog of thousands and
>>thousands of gassed jews."
>>The chimmey is NOT bleching smoke.
>>The chimmey is shooting any flames into the sky. 
>>There's no heap of coke visible.
>
>
>>Near the "possible cremation pit" which is acting in the function as a
>>"non-burning pit" are two sheds, and a water tank, very close to the
>>"burning pit", which seems to contain water.
>
>>The pit, the sheds, the water tank, are possibly some sort of installation
>>dealing with water, sewerage etc.
>
>
>>Check out "AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE" by JOHN BALL.
>
>>Available from Samisdat Publishers LTD
>>               206 Carlton St,
>>               Toronto,
>>               Ontario,
>>               M5A 2LI 
>>               CANADA
>
>Which we all know is Ernst Zuendel's publishing house.  Caveat emptor.
>
	Which McFee finds relevant as proof that the photos are lies.

>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>           



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:54 PST 1996
Article: 25063 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: LIE Guide to ZYKLON B? (was: Lay Guide to ZYKLON B)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:32:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> >(By the way, I should correct myself:  I don't know that it was
>> >Zyklon _B_ specifically, nor that the ten-minute release time was
>> >accurate for all forms.  The statement I made is accurate for a
>> >powder form of Zyklon, with appropriate application.  The release
>> >time for the silica form of Zyklon B, given the application
>> >technique used in the gas chambers, probably was rather longer.)
>> 
>>         "By the way, I should correct myself: I don't know that it was
>> Zyklon B specifically ..." 
>
>I underlined _B_ for a reason.  One of the Zyklon products was designed
>to emit all or nearly all of its gas in about ten minutes.  I don't
>know that it was Zyklon B.
>
>The point, in any case, is that it was nowhere near the hours and hours
>suggested by Holocaust-deniers.

	Well Jamie, if there was a form of Zyklon that released all
its HCN in ten minutes it wasn't the B strain, which leaves us with
the question of why didn't the Germans use the more or less immediate
release form instead of one that would take at least an hour and a
half to release.

>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:54 PST 1996
Article: 25064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS III
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:32:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <31308104.7022380@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3129f77e.11505908@news.pacificnet.net> <4gdiia$m2d@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <312dc381.419297@news.pacificnet.net> 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <312dc381.419297@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <3129f77e.11505908@news.pacificnet.net>,
>> >tom moran  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>      Even though, according to Holocaust facts, the Germans had
>> >>murdered almost a million at Treblinka two years before, and had at
>> >>first buried their bodies in pits, only to realize they would have to
>> >>do away with the evidence and dug them up again, burned them and then
>> >>reburied the ashes, the Germans ended up doing the same thing at
>> >>Auschwitz, where Holocaust facts have it that hundreds of thousands
>> >>were murdered in "bunkers 1 and 2", buried, dug up, burned and the
>> >>ashes disposed of.
>> >
>> >I'd really like to see a source for this.  Not that Tommy is ever going to
>> >provide one, and if he does by some miracle provide one it won't support his
>> >claim, but I would like to see a source for this.  (The digging up I don't
>> >dispute; it's the when and how many that I question.)
>> 
>> What "when"?  And what numbers are you sniding about, the ones
>> at Treblinka, Auschwitz or both. 
>
>I think Mr. Stein is "sniding" about YOU, Tommy. And deservedly so. Are
>you going to provide the source for you claims or not? 

	""Consequently, as early as September 1942, unearthing the
mass graves at Birkenau commenced. The bodies that had been buried
.."  pg. 163 - "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp".

	
	Marty, if your following this, mark it for your upcoming
program to expose revisionists as idiots.

>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:55 PST 1996
Article: 25065 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's fingers and Moran's toes
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:32:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	Are you saying the pictures only exist at the Allentown
>>  Library? You mean you can't supply any titles? You mean everyone
>>  should hop on a plane? Can they stay at your place while their laying
>>  over?
>>
>>>>>
>	No, L'il Tommy.  You did not ask for book titles.  Your original 
>challenge was for anybody to go to the library and find the pictures.  I did.  The 
>proof of that is waiting for you at the library.  That you have decided not to see 
>the proof is your problem.  In your case it is complicated by the your continual 
>prevarication.  That is why Rachelle, a very nice lady by the way, is waiting for 
>you.  She will explain the pictures to you and explain what they mean.  That way 
>we can all be sure that you now know that any intelligent person -- in which 
>number you are not included -- can go to the library and see pictures of trees in 
>Israel.  The set I included, in fact, includes pictures taken before the trees were 
>planted and a couple of Jewish kibbutzniks planting those trees.
>
>	Now stop whining and go see the proof that you were wrong.

	Yale, do you think other people may be watching this? Do you
offer your solution to attaining the proof to them also? You know, fly
to Allentown, stay at your house, go to the library, have Rachael show
us what it means.
	WHERE ARE THE TITLES YALE?

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:56 PST 1996
Article: 25066 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: technically impossible
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:32:34 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>No. What this means is that you have oriented your ruler the
>>>wrong way. Since the orientation of the photographer in the
>>>ground level photograph is from southwest to northeast, you want
>>>to put your ruler down on the aerial photo according to the same
>>>orientation, soutwest to northeast.  As it happens, you will find
>>>that that BII is northeast of Krema II. Try it.
>
>>	This is correct. But, when you put the ruler down it will only
>>cross over two or three of the barracks far off in the distance,
>>whereas the close up photo of the crematorium II shows about seven of
>>them. Now I don't know if they are the same barracks in BII, do you?
>
>You can't see seven barracks.

	The initial seven I posted was a guesstimate. On counting them
it is more like nine, maybe ten.

>>>>	Another problem for the match up is that the "sedimentation
>>>>basin" shown in the close up, a quite extensive system, does not
>>>>appear on the aerial photo. 
>>>
>>>Now that is odd, because I can see the sedimentation basin (aka,
>>>sewage farm) quite clearly in the aerial photo. It might help you
>>>to look at the camp map on p. 15. See the item labeled "10.
>>>Sewage plant"? Do you see anything in the aerial photograph that
>>>looks similar? Perhaps that group of rectangles just south of the
>>>Krema?
>
>>	I figured someone would come out and try to say those images
>>south of the crematorium are trenches. First of all they don't
>>correspond in relative position to the close up. Second of all, they
>>certainly don't look like trenches. They look like buildings or
>>storage containers.
>
>Have you considered the depth of field of the ground level
>photograph? If the foreground and background are both equally
>well in focus, things in the foreground are going to appear to be
>closer together than they actually are.
>
>And again I comment:
>
>I assume that the whole point of this post is to prove that the
>gif I posted for you could not possibly be of Krema II and that
>herefore you were right all along about your idea of the traffic
>flow in and out of the Krema II gas chamber. 
>
>Me, I am at a loss to figure out why you are so intent on
>sticking to your story. It suggests desperation and a greater
>interest in your personal pride than in the truth. 
>
>Would it help at all if I said there was no shame in not knowing
>something so long as you are willing to learn?

	I considered the lens angle and in regard to what is obscurred
by the crematorium it is of no relevance. The lens seems to have been
something around 35 to 55 mm. Telephotos tend to make things in
perspective look closer to each other than in reality. In the photo
under discussion the buildings appear to be about 1/2 to 1 mile away,
whereas in the aerial photo, the distance figures more like 5 or 6
hundred feet.


>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:57 PST 1996
Article: 25067 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Admits his Bigotry
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:33:07 GMT
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adam3t@aol.com (Adam 3T) wrote:

>Say, Moran, weren't you the National Blowjob Poster Child for 1995?
>
>                                                                          
>           All the best,
>                                                                          
>            Adam

	"Say, Moran, weren't you the National Blowjob Poster Child for
1995? All the best"?   Now that is profound.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:58 PST 1996
Article: 25070 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Best of Adam 3T
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:19:25 GMT
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	Alternative titles:
       'Pro-Holocauster solicits homosexual acts on alt.rev.'
	Or 'Pro-Holocauster responses Marty Kelley might avoid using
in his study to expose the debating techniques on alt.rev.'
                      __________________________

- "Say, Moran, weren't you the National Blowjob Poster Child for
1995?" 

- "No you have it wrong.  Milt Kleim is a men's washroom attendant in
a Turkish bathhouse."

- "BTW, do you suck only aryan cock or can I get in on the action?"

- "Dear Les:
      Suck my Jewish cock all day.  Suck it dry."



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Feb 25 09:44:58 PST 1996
Article: 25071 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Adam 3T
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:29:17 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	Alternative titles:
>       'Pro-Holocauster solicits homosexual acts on alt.rev.'
>	Or 'Pro-Holocauster responses Marty Kelley might avoid using
>in his study to expose the debating techniques on alt.rev.'
>                      __________________________
>
>- "Say, Moran, weren't you the National Blowjob Poster Child for
>1995?" 
>
>- "No you have it wrong.  Milt Kleim is a men's washroom attendant in
>a Turkish bathhouse."
>
>- "BTW, do you suck only aryan cock or can I get in on the action?"
>
>- "Dear Les:
>      Suck my Jewish cock all day.  Suck it dry."
>
    "Say, I remember you now.  You were in the 1995 Intramural
Asslicking Championships, right?"

                                          


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 10:41:10 PST 1996
Article: 25149 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'About 10,000 Jews were liquidated on 28 and 29 July'
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:52:54 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Report from Kube, General Commissioner of White Ruthenia,
>to Gauleiter Lohse, Reich Commissioner for the Ostland,
>31 July 1942
>[Quoted from "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg
> Military Tribunals", Vol. IV, pages 191-193]
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>During detailed consultations with the SS Brigadefuehrer Zenner 
>and the extremely capable Chief of the SD, 
>SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. jur. Strauch, we found that we had 
>liquidated approximately 55,000 Jews in White Ruthenia during 
>the past 10 weeks. In the Minsk-Land area, the Jewry was completely 
>exterminated without endangering the allocation of labor in any way. 
>In the prevailing Polish Lida area, 16,000 Jews, in Slonim 8,000
>Jews, etc., were liquidated. 
>
>[...]
>
>In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on 28 and
>29 July, 6,500 of whom were Russian Jews - mainly old people, women,
>and children - the remainder consisted of Jews unfit for work, most 
>of whom had been sent to Minsk from Vienna, Brno, Bremen, and Berlin
>in November of the previous year at the Fuehrer's orders.
>
>

	Would this be on the Fuehrer's direct orders, for those
particular incidents?
 
> 
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 10:41:11 PST 1996
Article: 25151 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:56:32 GMT
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	Quite often the topic of Jewish population before the war pops
up on alt.revisionism. It is important to the Holocaust story to show
there were enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6 million.
Most of the time, those in favor of the story respond to challenges by
citing German estimates on the population of Jews in Europe.
Something like, 'WHAT? What are you talking about? Look, even the
Germans estimated ...'.

	As it turns out these estimates are deeply suspect.

	"In the final solution conference of January 20, 1942, the
Reich Main Security Office offered the following population statistics
for these countries: Findland 2,300; ... Netherlands, 165,000; ...
Romania, 342,000; ... Hungary, 742,000; ... France (occupied) 165,000;
... France (unoccupied), 700,000; The total is 2,475,100. But the sum
was inflated, principally because of the gross over-estimate for
unoccupied France, by about 600,000 people people."
                                                       *Raul Hilberg
	
	Lets summarize: The one number was 700,000 and the correction
is 100,000.
	Well so much for citing German estimates as proof there were
enough Jews in Europe to validify the numerical part of the story.
_________________________



	* We can thank Raul Hilberg in his demonstration of
objectivety and honesty for reporting on this 700,000 only being
100,000. Evidentally there was just too much of one thing or not
enough of another available for world scrutiny to maintain this number
of 700,000. 
	In light of this development, should we just accept this as a
one exception out of the other 15 countries mentioned or would it be
justified to take this a step further and apply this same ratio to
revise the rest, like Hungary, reported to have had 700,000 Jews.
(Pressac now claims 200 to 250 thousand Hungarian Jews were delivered
to Auschwitz instead of 450,000.) Perhaps the 700,000 reported to have
been in Hungary is more like 100,000 also, or even much less.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 10:41:12 PST 1996
Article: 25155 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran: Hater First, American Second
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:30:15 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>	There is an arrogant anti-American over in Great Britain who 
>occasionally pops out from under his rock and posts his collection of nonsense.  
>He never sticks around to defend his lies but, instead, ducks back into his hole, a 
>sulks until his next foray into the real world.  One of his posts concerns the 
>Dachau trials.  He claims, citing only a bit of gossip in a British tabloid, that a 
>commission presented a report to Lucius Clay stating that physical torture had 
>been widely used to extract confessions at the Dachau tribunal.  The author of 
>the gossip had, according to the quotes that this anti-American presents, never 
>read the report and, of course there is no other corroborating evidence 
>presented.
>
>	This report is a lie.  A minimal check at the library showed that.  Lucius 
>Clay in his autobiography ("Decision in Germany"; New York; 1950) states that 
>the charges were investigated by a special commission (the Simposn Commission) 
>and by an Administration of Justice Review Board appointed by Clay.  It should 
>be noted that *all* the improprieties charged occurred *before* Clay took 
>command.  Clay reports that there were some improper methods -- including "stool 
>pigeons" and "stage setting" interrogations used.  However, he also states 
>"Extreme brutalities claimed by the prisoners, in manifest self-interest, were denied 
>by the prosecution staff and not borne out by other evidence." (page 253)  There 
>were two later congressional investigations, one conducted by Joseph 
>McCarthy, and both reached the conclusion that no torture was used.
>
>	Oddly enough these charges did not refer to any investigation of the 
>Holocaust but to the Malmedy Massacre.  This was an incident that occurred 
>during the Battle of the Bulge where Americans POWs were murdered by German 
>soldiers.  It should be noted that while the trials took place at Dachau they were 
>tried by a special military tribunal and not the same tribunal that tried nazis for their 
>participation in the Holocaust (page 252).  Further Clay blames the improprieties 
>on Americans shocked at the "cold-blooded murder" of their comrades and 
>states: "It is unfortunate that later the Malmdy case cast some discredit on these 
>trials as a whole, although improper methods in obtaining evidence were charged 
>only in this instance." (page 253)
>
>	This information has both been posted here and sent by e-mail to the 
>poster who was so willing to smear by lies the U.S. Army.  The only reponse was 
>to repost the same lies.  And who should pop up to defend these lies: L'il Tommy 
>Moran.
>
>	L'il Tommy obsessive hatred of Jews is so great that he is willing to 
>accept at face value any lie -- no matter how outrageous, no matter often it is 
>rebutted -- even if it represents an unwarranted smear on his own country.  As 
>long as he can denigrate "the Jews" L'il Tommy will purr with content.  L'il Tommy 
>has whined that those protesting the cold blooded murders that were an intergral 
>part of the nazi philosophy, were "dirtying" German history.  When his own 
>country is smeared -- and those doing the smearing are well aware of the lies they 
>are posting -- it is L'il Tommy who leaps to their defense.
>
>	I realize that many of the people who read this are citizens of the U.S.  I 
>hope that they are as proud of their countries as I am of the U.S.  I hope that 
>Morris and Morrison and MacVay would be as upset if some prevaricator 
>falsely claimed that Canadian soldiers had tortured helpless people and then 
>maintained that lying position after the truth had been demonstrated.  I hope, as 
>well, that they would have the same scorn for another Canadian who supported 
>those lies because of personal prejudice and bigotry as I have for Moran.
>
>	L'il Tommy has made point clear.  When given the choice between 
>defending his country against false charges and slandering Jews, he will chose to 
>slander Jews.  I think that it is fair to label this as an obsession.
>
>	--YFE

	Interesting. Where did you say this all started on alt.rev?



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 10:41:13 PST 1996
Article: 25159 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: he tells his story
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:45:42 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>
>Earlier in February, Matt Giwer posted what appeared to be a first-
>person account of a sonderkommando at Auschwitz; as it turns out, Mr.
>Giwer had written the piece itself.  He posted the story, and
>immediately followed it with the comment "Pardon me if I say every word
>of this is the work of a creative mind and that I do not believe a word
>of it.  There is not one credible word in it.  It is another piece of
>holocaust bullshit."
> 
>Apparently Mr. Giwer's motive was to demonstrate that a falsified
>story, even one which includes information that is contrary to reality,
>will unquestioningly be accepted by "true believers" in the Holocaust. 
>In the narrative, he included two details which are contrary to the
>physical reality of what happens after death (his fictional narrator
>said the gassed corpses' bodies "had turned blue from the gas" and had
>"froze[n] in the position they died") and one detail which is highly
>improbable, and an exaggeration of what other sources have said ("We
>stacked them like cordwood outside often to two meters in height").
> 
>After Mr. Giwer initially posted the fabricated narrative and
>proclaimed it to be "another piece of holocaust bullshit," several
>other participants in alt.revisionism, myself included, asked Giwer how
>he knew it to be false.  At first, he said only that "You have to be
>frigging blind not to see this is a fake and a fraud.  It is internally
>inconsistent.  It is all emotion and story telling and has no fact
>content. You have to be a true believer to swallow this crap story" (12
>Feb), and asking "Are you saying you can't tell purple prose fiction
>from factual recounting?" (12 Feb).  After some further questioning,
>Mr. Giwer acknowledged that he had written the narrative himself, to
>see whether people would pick up on the three intentional errors he had
>put in the false story.  
> 
>As a matter of fact, no one in the conference said that they
>unquestioningly accepted the story as true; most simply pointed out
>that Mr. Giwer had not explained why he considered the "testimony"
>completely devoid of credibility.  As the conversation developed, and
>Mr. Giwer asked if people were actually defending the story as valid,
>several writers (myself, Stephane Bruchfeld, John Morris, and Mike
>Stein, among others) acknowledged that, for all we knew, Giwer might
>have written it himself, but that there was not enough information *in
>the text itself* to judge it as "true" or "false." 
> 
>But what about those three errors of fact?  Doesn't our failure to
>pounce on them and immediately reject the story as fake prove that
>"true believers" are incapable of "critical thought" when it comes to
>Holocaust narratives?  
> 
>Well, no, it doesn't.
> 
>Mike Stein, in a post that Mr. Giwer may have missed, noted that the
>corpses being stacked to a height of 2 m. could well be an exaggeration
>or an inaccurate estimate.  To the corpses "froze in position" line,
>Mr. Stein wrote
> 
>         Well, there is no mention of time, place, or season here.  If
>     "froze" refers to actual stiffening - something not completely
>     guaranteed - then I would say that if the time is summer and the
>     chambers were unloaded immediately, this is false, as rigor mortis
>     would not have time to set in.  But if the scene described is in
>     winter and/or there was some delay, this may be true.  Without
>     more information, there is insufficient evidence _in the text
>     itself_ to form any good conclusion about the truth or falsity, as
>     the rigor mortis objection depends on two dubious assumptions -
>     that "froze" can only mean what you think it means, and that the
>     chronology is what you think it is.
> 
>Mr. Stein did not address the "bodies turned blue from the gas" error,
>but I noticed it the first time I read it, and recognized that it was
>probably _not_ an accurate literal description, but also thought that
>it could be an exaggeration of the blue skin tone, especially in the
>lips and extremities, that results from asphyxiation; or it could be a
>loose description (the speaker could have meant that the dead bodies
>were pale) or possibly a mistranslation.  
> 
>Again, as Mike Stein said, "I am not saying the text is true.  I am
>saying you are making claims of falsity for which I do not find
>adequate support _in the text presented_.  That's all."  In other
>words, while the 3 "clues" to Mr. Giwer's forgery are, in fact, not
>consistent with what we know about death and the Holocaust, they are
>not so completely inexplicable as to utterly and automatically
>invalidate the "testimony," as Mr. Giwer asserts. They are certainly
>enough to make a reader skeptical, and I would note again that no one
>categorically stated that they believed the story.
> 
>So, what does our failure to immediately recognize Mr. Giwer's forgery
>prove?  Not much, really, since as I have demonstrated, the errors of
>fact within the text can be explained by logical means, even though
>they do in fact diminsh the text's overall credibility.  If I were a
>historian (and I'm not; I'm a rhetorician and writing teacher) asked to
>evaluate the text's authenticity, I would be unable to come to an
>absolute judgement--the most I'd be able to say is that while some of
>the details are contrary to fact, the narrative can't be conclusively
>judged false or true based on the text itself.  Further research into
>the authorship of the narrative, whether it was a translation, when it
>was written, and so on, would be needed before a conclusive evaluation
>could be made, since such elements, which are external to the text
>itself, could either account for the inconsistencies or offer more
>conclusive proof that the account was false.
> 
>What I find interesting about this little exercise in fraud on Mr.
>Giwer's part is that once he admitted that he had faked the
>"testimony," he went on to state that he believed that most, perhaps
>all, other accounts of gassings in the death camps were similarly
>forged.  That's quite a claim, and rather than arguing too much over
>the credibility of Mr. Giwer's faked post, I would like to see Mr.
>Giwer offer proof for his claim.  To begin with, the Nizkor site has
>numerous testimonies, given by Nazi guards and officers, discussing the
>regular operations of the gas chambers.  I would like to see Mr.
>Giwer's exposition of these testimonies: since he seems to be claiming
>that they are untrue, perhaps he could demonstrate why he thinks each
>one was forged, and offer some evidence that they are indeed false.  It
>would further enhance Mr. Giwer's credibility if he could suggest,
>again with supporting evidence, who the forgers of the testimonies
>were.
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 


	I, myself missed this exchange. If I should summarize this
post , I would say that you are saying Giwer posted this bogus
tetimony to make a point of how easy it is, and you fell for it, and
now here you are explaining the situation? 



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 10:41:14 PST 1996
Article: 25162 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Thank You Nizkor
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:31:08 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	Ken McVay has informed the group that the Nizkor Project will
be giving Europe, including Germany "Nizkor European Mirror Site". 
	We can see that Nizkor has fair resources to expand and
expound, and maybe, just maybe they can get articles, and columns to
advertise the presence. Naturally, the people will be getting a major
dose of awareness that there is a revisionist process taking place,
and Nizkor will be pressed to "link" their site to the revisionist
pages. At the very least, their attacks on the revisionist sites will
make the awareness and establish a precedence for fairness, 'Well look
the Nizkor project can readily get their views into the European home,
so why not the other side'. So it seems that we can thank Nizkor for
going through all this trouble that will ultimately benefit the
exposure of revisionist views.
	Ahoy Europe. The truth is coming to bury the myth.
        Thank you Nizkor.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 10:41:15 PST 1996
Article: 25163 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:41:08 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> >On 1 Feb 1996, Henrik Alm=E9n wrote:
>> 
>> >> There are too many jews on the earth and its a pity that the holocaust
>> >> is a lie because it would have been much better here if six million
>> >> jews was extincted.
>> >> SIEG HEIL !
>> 
>> >Not that there's anything INTRINSICALLY anti-Semitic about "questioning"
>> >the historical reality of the Holocaust, right, Mr. Moran?
>> 
>> >Gosh, where do we Holocaustclones get THAT ridiculous idea?
>> 
>> 	How is you respond with my name to the post of another?
>
>I seem to recall that you have argued that "questioning" the Holocaust 
>wasn't necessarily anti-Semitic.  If you have not made that claim, I 
>apologize for suggesting that you have.
>
>So, then, do you think that there IS a connection between doubting the 
>historical reality of the Holocaust and being an anti-Semite? 

	Clicking around in review, I find this. Did I respond to this?
Well I will now. As to this last question, there could be for some,
but I don't think the process is "INTRINSICALLY" connected to all.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 10:41:16 PST 1996
Article: 25164 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Subject About Which Moron is Ignorant
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:43:23 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	I considered the lens angle and in regard to what is obscurred
>>  by the crematorium it is of no relevance. The lens seems to have been
>>  something around 35 to 55 mm. Telephotos tend to make things in
>>  perspective look closer to each other than in reality.
>
>	First, L'il Tommy, no-one can tell the focal distance of a lens from a 
>photograph without knowing the format of the camera.  Second for 35mm fillm 
>50-35 mm lens are normal to wide angle lens not telephoto lenses.   For larger 
>format camera they would be wide angle to very wide angle.  Third wide angle 
>lenses tend to increase depth of focus (that's why they are used in cheap 
>cameras) so the lens angle *is* important.

	Wide angle lenses create a distortion, giving a non-Euclidian
geometry. Any telephoto lens would have brought the barracks on the
horizon into larger perspective than what is shown. Anyway, it has
nothing to do with what is visible and what is obscurred. The photo
shows at least 9 barracks on the horizon, whereas charting the course
on the aerial shows that no more than 1 or 2 would be seen.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 10:41:17 PST 1996
Article: 25166 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Adam 3T
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:07:31 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	Alternative titles:
>>       'Pro-Holocauster solicits homosexual acts on alt.rev.'
>>	Or 'Pro-Holocauster responses Marty Kelley might avoid using
>>in his study to expose the debating techniques on alt.rev.'
>>                      __________________________
>>
>>- "Say, Moran, weren't you the National Blowjob Poster Child for
>>1995?" 
>>
>>- "No you have it wrong.  Milt Kleim is a men's washroom attendant in
>>a Turkish bathhouse."
>>
>>- "BTW, do you suck only aryan cock or can I get in on the action?"
>>
>>- "Dear Les:
>>      Suck my Jewish cock all day.  Suck it dry."
>>
>    "Say, I remember you now.  You were in the 1995 Intramural
>Asslicking Championships, right?"

E-mail to Tom Moran from Adam 3T:
"Fame at last.  And they spelled my name right, too.  Gee, to get the
short shrift from thre likes of Tom Moran is something.  Girls
probably have the same com-plaint about him.  Shorty, that is.
At least my insults are brief and to the point.  Moran's insults
against Jews and other victims of racism are long, boring and
whining."



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 22:50:49 PST 1996
Article: 25195 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: technically impossible
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:42:28 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>No. What this means is that you have oriented your ruler the
>>>>>wrong way. Since the orientation of the photographer in the
>>>>>ground level photograph is from southwest to northeast, you want
>>>>>to put your ruler down on the aerial photo according to the same
>>>>>orientation, soutwest to northeast.  As it happens, you will find
>>>>>that that BII is northeast of Krema II. Try it.
>>>
>>>>	This is correct. But, when you put the ruler down it will only
>>>>cross over two or three of the barracks far off in the distance,
>>>>whereas the close up photo of the crematorium II shows about seven of
>>>>them. Now I don't know if they are the same barracks in BII, do you?
>>>
>>>You can't see seven barracks.
>
>>	The initial seven I posted was a guesstimate. On counting them
>>it is more like nine, maybe ten.
>
>I think I see your problem. You seem to be counting the pylons
>for the barbed wire fence as space between the buildings. In
>point of fact I can't distinguish between any buildings at all.
>All I can make out is that they are buildings. Perhaps if the
>photograph was larger.

	You have to look at the line on the horizon with a magnifying
lens or a loupe. You will see the ends of buildings. They extend from
the edge of the subject building in the foreground to the edge of the
photo.

>>>>>>	Another problem for the match up is that the "sedimentation
>>>>>>basin" shown in the close up, a quite extensive system, does not
>>>>>>appear on the aerial photo. 
>>>>>
>>>>>Now that is odd, because I can see the sedimentation basin (aka,
>>>>>sewage farm) quite clearly in the aerial photo. It might help you
>>>>>to look at the camp map on p. 15. See the item labeled "10.
>>>>>Sewage plant"? Do you see anything in the aerial photograph that
>>>>>looks similar? Perhaps that group of rectangles just south of the
>>>>>Krema?
>>>
>>>>	I figured someone would come out and try to say those images
>>>>south of the crematorium are trenches. First of all they don't
>>>>correspond in relative position to the close up. Second of all, they
>>>>certainly don't look like trenches. They look like buildings or
>>>>storage containers.
>>>
>>>Have you considered the depth of field of the ground level
>>>photograph? If the foreground and background are both equally
>>>well in focus, things in the foreground are going to appear to be
>>>closer together than they actually are.

	I think it is obvious, the trenches are right there at the
immediate proximity of the building.
>
>[snip]
>
>>	I considered the lens angle and in regard to what is obscurred
>>by the crematorium it is of no relevance.
>
>You're right: neither of has mentioned whatever is obscured by
>the Krema.
>
>> The lens seems to have been
>>something around 35 to 55 mm. Telephotos tend to make things in
>>perspective look closer to each other than in reality.
>
>A fixed-lens camera of any focal power will create the same
>effect. Look at the picture again. You have an infinite depth of
>field which foreshortens and distorts the perspective.
>
>Perhaps someone could do the trigonometry for us. The Krema wall
>is about 10mm high in the photograph and the barrack wall is
>about 3mm high. Assuming the Krema wall to be 10 ft. and the
>barrack wall to be about the same height, I estimate the distance
>between the two to be about 450 ft. to 550 ft., about the same as
>shown in the aerial photograph. Of course, I did it with a big
>old wooden ruler and no protractor, but it looks right to me.
>
>> In the photo
>>under discussion the buildings appear to be about 1/2 to 1 mile away,
>>whereas in the aerial photo, the distance figures more like 5 or 6
>>hundred feet.
>
>And I submit, as above, that appearances can be deceiving.
>
>I reiterate the unanswered comments and questions:
>
>I assume that the whole point of this post is to prove that the
>gif I posted for you could not possibly be of Krema II and that
>therefore you were right all along about your idea of the traffic
>flow in and out of the Krema II gas chamber.
>
>Me, I am at a loss to figure out why you are so intent on
>sticking to your story. It suggests desperation and a greater
>interest in your personal pride than in the truth.
>
>Would it help at all if I said there was no shame in not knowing
>something so long as you are willing to learn?
>
>If I am right that you are still trying to prove your theory of
>the impossible traffic flow, please take a look at the picture on
>p. 350 of the _Anatomy_ and tell me where the smokestack is, and
>tell me if it matches up with the .gif I posted.
>
>While you're at it, consider the following:
>
>
>  From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
>  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>  Subject: Re: Krema II: Aerial View for Tom Moran - krema2.jpg
>  (1/1)
>  Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:34:44 GMT
>  Message-ID: <219266188wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
>
>  Jeff  wrote:
> 
>  >In article: <4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
>  >jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:
>
>  [snip]
>  
>  >But seriously, Jeff. Leaving aside all my lively banter, and
>  >leaving aside the labeling, is the picture I posted an aerial
>  >photo of Krema II? 
>
>  Your "banter" is a disgusting smear against the german people.
>
>  Yes, your photo is of Krema II.
>  I have one, [of the 13th september 1944] too.
>
>  [snip]
>
>
>Look, even your pal Jeff Roberts agrees that the picture is
>captioned correctly. Why are you persisting in such a hopeless
>denial that the pictures of the Kremas are captioned correctly?
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Feb 26 22:50:50 PST 1996
Article: 25207 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photo Facts
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 01:13:22 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	 Yet another problem. The row of buildings on the horizon in
the photograph on pg.136, referred to as "barracks" are quite widely
separated. The spacing between them is much wider than the spacing
suggested in the aerial view of the barracks. The spacing is quite
evident in that we can see the sides of the buildings diminishing in
perspective for some distance, which shouldn't be possible when
compared to a line drawn to them from the building in the aerial view,
which allows for only a short view of the long axis  of each barrack.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 07:45:48 PST 1996
Article: 25247 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photo Facts
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:42:05 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	Oh, oh. A new problem.
>
>I suppose could waste more time explaining very carefully why
>your observations about Krema II are wrong, but instead I'll ask
>whether there a point to all these silly objections? Or is it
>simply your purpose to act dumb until people get so fed up that
>they call you stupid in public so that you can claim there is no
>debate, just insults?
>
>Assuming that you really believe that photographs have been
>miscaptioned and misrepresented, what purpose do you think is
>served by that? Why would people lie about which buildings were
>crematoria? What difference would it make? What is your point?

	To sell the Holocaust story.

>You and Matt Giwer are the only people who deny that the
>buildings represented in the photographs as Krema II are in fact
>pictures Krema II. Why? What is your point?

	We are? How do you know this?

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:16 PST 1996
Article: 25306 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:46:52 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:
>
>OK, fair enough.  How about you, Mr. Moran?  What do you think of Jews, in 
>general?  

	Actually I know a number of Jews. Though I readily associate
with them, socially, I recognize there is a certain mind set,
universally among them. On a social basis, I have had some fun times.
When I was in the Army, I had as good buddies, two Jews. My father was
a stock broker. We had a secretary, a book keeper, four salesmen
including one sales manager, and a accountant that came in once a
month. Every one of them was Jewish. My brother and I were the only
ones that worked for my father that weren't Jewish. We all got along
great. I took out Jewish girls. One of my kids is married to a Jewish
girl. 
	Principles of psychiatry and general human common sense
recognizes that people are prone to running on automatic pilot that is
programmed from an early age. Now if some group teaches there kind
that they are chosen, superior, more brilliant, have a more enduring
history and the like, we have to assume there is going to be some
manifistations. It is these manifistations from which I get some of
my opinions.
	The biggest problem about Jews is when the operate in unison,
for a common cause that benefits them. 
	Only if the Jews recognize and take position in a society
along side the rest, apart from conspiring for their own positions,
will the cycle of question cease.

>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:17 PST 1996
Article: 25307 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Adam 3T speaks
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:46:59 GMT
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Questioning the reality of the Holocaust is an intentional insult
against
the Jewish
people.  



   Adam


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:18 PST 1996
Article: 25308 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photo Facts
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:48:03 GMT
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References: <312dc377.409356@news.pacificnet.net> <31306735.415123@news.pacificnet.net> <4gr1t6$17pc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3131e2d2.6758631@news.pacificnet.net> <4gt5oa$1sbu@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>Assuming that you really believe that photographs have been
>>>miscaptioned and misrepresented, what purpose do you think is
>>>served by that? Why would people lie about which buildings were
>>>crematoria? What difference would it make? What is your point?
>
>>	To sell the Holocaust story.
>
>Okay. Are you denying that there were any crematoria at Birkenau?
>If not, how does misidentifying the building as a crematorium
>promote the "Holocaust story?" 

	Who denies there were crematoria at Auschwitz? Putting it by
the rail road makes it look like it was used for the immediate
extermination of those arriving on trains.

>>>You and Matt Giwer are the only people who deny that the
>>>buildings represented in the photographs as Krema II are in fact
>>>pictures Krema II. Why? What is your point?
>
>>	We are? How do you know this?
>
>Sorry. I should have qualified that statement: you and Matt Giwer
>are the only people I know of who deny that the building in the
>pictures is Krema II. Every "revisionist" writer and every
>historian whom I have read accepts that the building depicted is
>Krema II.

	Should we play the 'where are the sources game' for this?
>
>So, what's your point? How does misindentifying the building
>"sell the Holocaust story?"
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:18 PST 1996
Article: 25309 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: technically impossible
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:48:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31307332.3484606@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> Anyone wanting to check it out, check it out.
>
>What, no rebuttal, Tommy? No "penetrating" denier insight in defence of
>your blatantly incorrect "interpretation" of the photo? Are you going to
>run away from this issue as well, Tommy? (It would be par for the course
>for you.) 
>
>One can assume, then, since you have no made no cogent objections to my
>conclusions from "checking out" the photo that we can safely assume that
>Krema II is exactly where it is supposed to be: right where the photos
>show it to be. 
>
>Mark

	Your conclusions? Where are they? Anyway, the photos are there
for anyone who would like to check it out.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:19 PST 1996
Article: 25310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: technically impossible
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:48:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <313343d9.8111269@news.pacificnet.net>
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <4gqv0b$17pc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:
>
>>>>>>>   Another problem for the match up is that the "sedimentation
>>>>>>>basin" shown in the close up, a quite extensive system, does not
>>>>>>>appear on the aerial photo. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now that is odd, because I can see the sedimentation basin (aka,
>>>>>>sewage farm) quite clearly in the aerial photo. It might help you
>>>>>>to look at the camp map on p. 15. See the item labeled "10.
>>>>>>Sewage plant"? Do you see anything in the aerial photograph that
>>>>>>looks similar? Perhaps that group of rectangles just south of the
>>>>>>Krema?
>>>>
>>>>>     I figured someone would come out and try to say those images
>>>>>south of the crematorium are trenches. First of all they don't
>>>>>correspond in relative position to the close up. Second of all, they
>>>>>certainly don't look like trenches. They look like buildings or
>>>>>storage containers.
>
>Just as a point of interest it should be noted that aerial photos can be 
>extremely deceiving in the third dimension, so what looks like a depression 
>can look like a raised surface if the shadows are right.  If you ever have 
>seen NASA shots of the moon with the sun just slightly off to the side so 
>there are slight shadows you can see this effect.  The phenomena is related 
>to what you expect to see.  I've seen people glancing at a topo map and 
>saying they see a crater when in fact it is a dome they are looking at.

	Relevance? 

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:20 PST 1996
Article: 25311 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: technically impossible
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:48:17 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>I think I see your problem. You seem to be counting the pylons
>>>for the barbed wire fence as space between the buildings. In
>>>point of fact I can't distinguish between any buildings at all.
>>>All I can make out is that they are buildings. Perhaps if the
>>>photograph was larger.
>
>>	You have to look at the line on the horizon with a magnifying
>>lens or a loupe. You will see the ends of buildings. They extend from
>>the edge of the subject building in the foreground to the edge of the
>>photo.
>
>With a x8 loupe, all I see is a bunch of dots.

	Anyone wanting to view the suspect photo closer, go ahead and
use a loupe, and don't get hung up on the dots.
>
>Anyway, it is apparent to me after carrying this thread on
>through several exchanges that you are going to see whatever you
>want to see in the pictures. As Jamie McCarthy has pointed out in
>another thread on this subject, all that you demonstrated is the
>extraordinary lengths that you are willing to go to in order to
>deny the Holocaust. I know of only two people who deny that the
>building depicted is Krema II, you and Matt Giwer. Historians and
>deniers alike are otherwise unanimous in their agreement about
>what the building is; the disagreement is not about whether
>bodies were destroyed there, but whether people were also
>murdered there.
>
>I am afraid therefore that, if you persist in denying what is
>obvious to everyone but yourself, you are going to gain a
>reputation as a not-very-bright kook. If that is what you want,
>suit yourself, but I am not going any further with this.

	The photos are at the source stated. Anyone wanting to check
it out go ahead. 

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:21 PST 1996
Article: 25312 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Subject About Which Moron is Ignorant
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:48:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	Wide angle lenses create a distortion, giving a non-Euclidian
>>  geometry.
>>>>>
>	I guess that's why architects prefer wide angle lenses for their picture 
>taking.  They just love all that non-Euclidian distortion.

	Not "wide angle", Yale, like fish eye right? Either way the
nature of the lens has nothing to do with the dynamics discussed.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:21 PST 1996
Article: 25313 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: PRESSAC'S DELIBERATE FABRICATION:
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:48:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <313343ee.8132854@news.pacificnet.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <287371659wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL"
> said:
>
>>
>
>>Pressac, a holocaust liar, DELIBERATELY fabricates the visit of SS officer
>> Pohl to Auschwitz:
>
>Before we go any further, I would love to know how the quote below proves
>that anyone fabricates a visit.  Oswald Pohl was not simply an SS officer. 
>He was an Obergruppenfuehrer, and was head of the Wirtschafts- und
>Verwaltungshauptamt (The Economic and Administrative Main Office), which was
>responsible, amongst other things, for the administration of the
>concentration camps.  Hardly surprising that he would visit a concentration
>camp.  In 1942, the administration of all concentration camps and
>extermination camps was transferred to him, along with the appropriate
>personnel (Richard Gluecks for example).  Thus, it is hardly surprising that
>he would visit Auschwitz.

	Convenient angle to respond to. I believe, McFee, that the
post takes issue with the accounting of any visit, not that one didn't
occur. What are you saying? 

>>Start Quote:- 
>
>>[The Chief of the SS-WVHA, General of the SS Army Corps Pohl, presented
>>himself unexpectedly in morning of the 23rd of September at Auschwitz to
>>learn what was going  on, and where the assigned tons of Zyclon B were
>>going. Pohl went first to the Bauleitung, and had the general set-up of
>>the camp  explained to him, and the buildings that had been erected,
>>those under construction (including the four crematories of  Birkenau)
>>and those planned described to him. His question on Zyclon B was answered
>>that with this product the jews and the lice were destroyed at the same
>>time.]
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                     



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Feb 27 13:31:22 PST 1996
Article: 25314 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't going to believe me neither
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:48:57 GMT
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	For any fat to flow from the pit to a central basin would
require that the pit be excavated with a considerable slope. The best
design would be the lengthwise angle plus a grading from the sides to
a trough in the center. Any human fat would not flow well with the
bodies pressing against the excavation floor. It would have to migrate
this way and that, stop, then ooze left or right, in short, it would
have to migrate slowly, seep, not run freely. Thus the angle for the
excavation would have to be considerable. Much of the fat would be
prone to absorbtion into the earth.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Feb 28 06:59:03 PST 1996
Article: 25419 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news1.io.org!ican.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor European Mirror Site
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:47:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 43
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>    Followups have been set to alt.revisionism only.
>
>In article <3131d89a.4142937@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>
>>>The Nizkor Project Archives are now mirrored in Germany, at
>>>
>>>        ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>
>[...]
>
>>	This is a great event. Now all of Europe will be able to
>>witness the Nizkor Project. Naturally you endorse the right of
>>revisionists pages to be accessible to Europe, right?
>
>    Indeed, for full effect it is necessary to be able to navigate from a
>Nizkor page to Zundel's and Greg Raven's pages.  Nizkor has provided links
>to these pages even though Raven has refused and Zundel still seems to be
>wavering.  Nizkor encourages people to compare what Nizkor says about the
>revisionists to what the revisionists say.  It is Greg Raven who does not
>want people to see any reply to what he says.
>
>    Tommy, why don't you ask Mr. Raven why he is so afraid of letting
>people see what Nizkor has to say?  He claims it's because his position
>has been misquoted and mischaracterized, and that he's been personally
>attacked.  Yet he never gives "explicits."  Why aren't you asking him for
>his "explicits," Tommy? 

	I'll check it out. I would think all revisionist pages would
provide a link to Nizkor. Direct the people to the childish nature of
it all. 


>    Posted/emailed to Tom Moran and Greg Raven.
>
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 06:37:15 PST 1996
Article: 25509 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Stupid Germans V
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:49:55 GMT
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	Instead of incorporating the portals for the introduction of
the Zyklon B while constructing the specially built killing chambers,
the Germans first poured the concrete ceilings solid over a grid of
iron re-bar and then realized they had no way of getting the pellets
into the chamber. 



     (In all fairness, I must offer some dissent against any claims
the Germans were stupid, there could have been some reasons why they
went about it so ass backwards.)

                    _____________________
        

	John Morris, to the rescue from another posting.
 
"There are any number of reasons why the holes would have been cut
after construction. Now, you may wish to believe that the Nazis
were stupid for not thinking of the holes while they were
constructing the gas chamber, but others of us are willing to
accept that they were reasonably good in practical matters."

"It could have been that the Nazis kept the homocidal purpose of
the chamber from the construction engineers."

	But then the Holocaust books like to play up how every one was
zealous for the tasks assigned to them.
                         ____________________

"It could have been an oversight."

	Okay, now thats better, he is saying they were stupid.
                         ____________________

"It could have been that they realized that throwing Zyklon B
through the door was not very effective."

	Stupid Germans again. They built the chambers, and someone
said 'Heil, how will we put in the Zyklon B, we can't just throw it
through the door, what with all those people crammed in there. We
better cut some holes in the roof like we did at Krema I.	
                        _____________________

"It could have been that they realized that throwing Zyklon B
through the ceiling vent was not very effective."

	Yea, this certainly would have been a problem. You know,
having to push it along with some kind of ramming device through the
maze of ducting. I wonder if they might have tried this?
                        _______________________

"I just gave five reasons. No doubt others could think of more
reasons, and no doubt you will object that I began each with the
phrase, 'it could have been'. But the absence of direct proof
about *why* the SS did things the way they did is not proof that
they did not do things."

	After all this I don't know who is stupid, but someone has to
take responsibility for the suggested reasons.
        Anyone else who would like to take up Morris' invite to
"think of more reasons"? 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 06:37:16 PST 1996
Article: 25513 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photo Facts
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:47:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	 Yet another problem. The row of buildings on the horizon in
>>the photograph on pg.136, referred to as "barracks" are quite widely
>>separated. The spacing between them is much wider than the spacing
>>suggested in the aerial view of the barracks. The spacing is quite
>>evident in that we can see the sides of the buildings diminishing in
>>perspective for some distance, which shouldn't be possible when
>>compared to a line drawn to them from the building in the aerial view,
>>which allows for only a short view of the long axis  of each barrack.
>
>First there were seven buildings, then nine or ten. Now in the
>tiny space of the photograph, they are too widely spaced. Make up
>your mind; you can't have it both ways.

	Can you prove there is a connection to your 'logic' above?
Actually I intially stated the smaller number as part of my general
practice not to take a chance on over or under counting so as not to
leave a little loop hole for you to focus on. 

>There is no diminishing perspective.

	Anyone wanting to observe the diminishing aspect of the
buildings on the horizon in photograph presented on pg. 136 of the
"Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" check it out. 
>
>Anyway, believe what you want to believe. Evidently nothing I say
>is going to change your mind. As someone else said, you will
>magnify this bit of non-evidence in your own mind until it crowds
>out all real evidence.
>
>Enjoy your discovery. Write to Jeff Roberts, and ask him if he
>agrees with you.
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 06:37:17 PST 1996
Article: 25533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!homer.alpha.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:22:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <31347340.269681@news.pacificnet.net>
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>In article <3131c94b.223270@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>> Quite often the topic of Jewish population before the war pops
>>up on alt.revisionism. It is important to the Holocaust story to show
>>there were enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6 million.
>>Most of the time, those in favor of the story respond to challenges by
>>citing German estimates on the population of Jews in Europe.
>>Something like, 'WHAT? What are you talking about? Look, even the
>>Germans estimated ...'.
>>
>> As it turns out these estimates are deeply suspect.
>>
>> "In the final solution conference of January 20, 1942, the
>>Reich Main Security Office offered the following population statistics
>>for these countries: Findland 2,300; ... Netherlands, 165,000; ...
>>Romania, 342,000; ... Hungary, 742,000; ... France (occupied) 165,000;
>>.... France (unoccupied), 700,000; The total is 2,475,100. But the sum
>>was inflated, principally because of the gross over-estimate for
>>unoccupied France, by about 600,000 people people."
>>                                                       *Raul Hilberg
>> 
>> Lets summarize: The one number was 700,000 and the correction
>>is 100,000.
>> Well so much for citing German estimates as proof there were
>>enough Jews in Europe to validify the numerical part of the story.
>
>Of course you fail to mention that the overestimate was due to the
>fact they did not know exactly how many Jews were in Vichy France,
>which they did not directly occupy, even though the passage *QUITE
>CLEARLY* states that.

	The accuracy of any German estimates would be contingent on
whether or not the country was occupied. Isn't this what your saying
Morrison? You mean they went around counting them one by one? Or they
got into records of the nations? The nations all had separate filing
for Jews so it was easy to count them? Or they had to go through all
the records and weed out which ones who were Jews? Or ..., ah, how did
they do it Morrison? 


>> In light of this development, should we just accept this as a
>>one exception out of the other 15 countries mentioned or would it be
>>justified to take this a step further and apply this same ratio to
>>revise the rest, like Hungary, reported to have had 700,000 Jews.
>>(Pressac now claims 200 to 250 thousand Hungarian Jews were delivered
>>to Auschwitz instead of 450,000.) Perhaps the 700,000 reported to have
>>been in Hungary is more like 100,000 also, or even much less.
>
>The only thing demonstrated, you illiterate moron, is that you still
>have not learned to read at a grade three level.
>
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:08 PST 1996
Article: 25565 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: technically impossible
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:51:32 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31307332.3484606@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	Anyone wanting to check it out, check it out.
>
>
>How very big of Mr. Moran to give us permission to "check it out!"
>
>But someone has checked it out and discovered that Mr. Moran is wrong
>as usual.

	Where is that? Why don't you explain where it is wrong. You,
yourself, personally.

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Whosoever runs after greatness, greatness runs away from him; he who
>runs from greatness, greatness follows him.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:10 PST 1996
Article: 25566 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: PRESSAC'S DELIBERATE FABRICATION:
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:52:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3135af95.184657@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <287371659wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <312ddfed.7695376@news.pacificnet.net> <4h0509$48e@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <312ddfed.7695376@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	I would say this is what we would mostly find if all
>	Holocaust sources were checked.
>
>Mr. Moran says something like this all the time!  The trouble is that
>he has never been able to examine even a single Holocaust source,
>much less establish that it is erroneous in the least detail.
>
>In other words, what Mr. Moran "would say" is nothing but baseless,
>anti-Semitic rubbish, not worth wasting time on.
>
>
>Mr. Moran continues by, once again, projecting his own personal
>problems onto others:
>
>	Grossly warped interpretations, misquotes, lies.
>
>That is indeed what we have come to expect from Mr. Moran.

	At least Harry accepts the posting that Pressac is a liar.

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Cold water, morning and evening, is better than all the cosmetics.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:10 PST 1996
Article: 25567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't going to believe me neither
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:52:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3135afa2.197894@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4gvjuk$7ob@wi.combase.com> <4h0gcp$rub@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-28.pacificnet.net
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  	If the burning is as described then the fat would be absorbed by
>>  the ashes, wick out and burn.  I am the only person who has ever BBQed
>>  meat?  Is there anyone who has ever seen grease collect in the bottom of
>>  a BBQ while they are using it?  
>>   
>>>>>
>	Yes.  My brother.  His qualifications?  He was a manager of a Luther's 
>in Houston for five years.  It was a regular problem and the BBQ ovens had to be 
>drained every 12 hours to prevent fires.

	Yale's brother worked in a bovine crematoria?

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:11 PST 1996
Article: 25568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:56:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <3135b030.339820@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4eqecm$csr@zippy.cais.net> <4g6otu$5lo@wi.combase.com> <4gbjqc$7n7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4geksj$lbj@wi.combase.com> <4gghbe$f23@access2.digex.net> <23FEB199609301727@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <312f3efd.5842537@news.pacificnet.net> 
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>    No amount of schooling could permit me to grasp Mr. Giwer's twisted 
>> >>logic or syntax.
>> >
>> >    Actually, Marty Kelley seems to be studying such things in his doctoral
>> >    program, although his dissertation is on a subject only tangentially
>> >    related.  Marty has spoken to me about putting together a panel at a
>> >    professional meeting to discuss the discussion styles used in
>> >    alt.revisionism. And we have several doctoral students here in our
>> >    Communication department studying argumentation who have shown interest
>> >    in looking at argument structures used in alt.revisionism.  Maybe
>> >    someone will do a thesis on it someday.
>> 
>> 	I would think any panel you guys put together might like to
>> selectively chose what you want to use as examples. Why don't we try
>> it out here?
>
>As the project progresses, I'll certainly be posting parts of my own work 
>"out here."  Are you implying that I not be allowed to discuss Holocaust 
>denial in a forum other than alt.revisionism, Mr. Moran?

	Where is that stated or implied? No where, except in your own
'mind'. Who's going to be in charge of what you feed the kiddies?
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:12 PST 1996
Article: 25570 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:04:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3135b227.843263@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3131e1bd.6481973@news.pacificnet.net> <4gt51d$2tg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3134730a.215415@news.pacificnet.net> <4h2qoi$1epg@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>adam3t@aol.com (Adam 3T) wrote:
>
>>>Questioning the reality of the Holocaust is an intentional insult against
>>>the Jewish
>>>people.  
>>>
>>	Questioning the reality of the Holocaust involves the history
>>of the German people. Do they have or should they have a right to
>>review their own history? Do you know of any other histories that are
>>not to be discussed?
>
>Germans have a right to question their own history, and they have
>questioned their own history. The process was contentious and
>painful as the famous "Historikerstreit" debate amply shows. What
>Germans have not done, by and large, is what you do and that is
>to *deny* their own history.

	I think revisionism will sweep over Germany. We will just have
to wait and see.

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:12 PST 1996
Article: 25571 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:05:02 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3135b270.916423@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3134730a.215415@news.pacificnet.net> <4h3743$ffr@news.enter.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  >
>>  	Questioning the reality of the Holocaust involves the history
>>  of the German people. Do they have or should they have a right to
>>  review their own history? Do you know of any other histories that are
>>  not to be discussed?
>>>>>
>
>	Odd, isn't it, that you leap to the defense of the "Germans" but when 
>someone lies about your own country's history, you leap to their defense with 
>snide comments.

	Heres another 'Where is that?'


>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:13 PST 1996
Article: 25574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Krema II: Aerial View for Tom Moran - krema2.jpg (1/1)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:15:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3135b447.1387460@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4g8nau$fuo@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4g9741$73o@wi.combase.com> <4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <324752587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4gocjk$298m@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <313080eb.6997664@news.pacificnet.net>   <3133440e.8164711@news.pacificnet.net> <4h3pjp$1ego@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	The image stated to be smoke in the above mentioned photograph
>>is shown coming up on the back side of the building, that side with
>>out the ell wing, the ell wing classically shown as the section that
>>contains the smoke stack.
>
>Hey, you know what? John Ball agrees that the building everyone
>else claims is Krema II is Krema II. You know, the one that you
>(and Matt Giwer deny is Krema II). Don't forget, Mr. Moran: he's
>on your side. The "ell wing" is where the smokestack was.

	The only thing that can be discerned as smoke coming from any
of the locations said to be crematoria is from the Crema V area. Your
not trying to flim flam are you, by going on about crema II and then
commenting on the smoke? Yehuda Bauer's book shows the ell facing in
>from  the outside of the camp, whereas the smoke is coming from the
fence side of the building. 

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:14 PST 1996
Article: 25575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Krema II: Aerial View for Tom Moran - krema2.jpg (1/1)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:17:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3135b551.1653352@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4g8nau$fuo@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4g9741$73o@wi.combase.com> <4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <324752587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4gocjk$298m@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <313080eb.6997664@news.pacificnet.net> <4h37p3$2cqm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <313080eb.6997664@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
>
>>>
>>>>Check out "AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE" by JOHN BALL.
>>>
>>>>Available from Samisdat Publishers LTD
>>>>               206 Carlton St,
>>>>               Toronto,
>>>>               Ontario,
>>>>               M5A 2LI 
>>>>               CANADA
>>>
>>>Which we all know is Ernst Zuendel's publishing house.  Caveat emptor.
>>>
>>	Which McFee finds relevant as proof that the photos are lies.
>
>Omigod, Mr. Moron!  We finally agree on something.

	Huh?
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                                                   



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:14 PST 1996
Article: 25576 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't going to believe me neither
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:20:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3135b5cb.1774846@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4gbbnh$o6k@Vir.com> <4gjjgt$tei@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  <31334403.8153835@news.pacificnet.net> <4h2eav$n6v@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31334403.8153835@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	For any fat to flow...
>
>Mr. Moran fancies himself an expert in every subject under the sun.
>The reason he thinks he knows something about fat is that he is such
>a fathead.

	Katz, is this the best you can do? I take it you are too
insufficient to respond to the points, point by point.

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Grasp a little and you may secure it; grasp too much and you will
>lose everything.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:15 PST 1996
Article: 25578 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:54:32 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <3135afd8.252380@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31249177.678158@news.pacificnet.net>  <3125f540.4990540@news.pacificnet.net>  <312742fb.6866009@news.pacificnet.net> <824698362snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <312ca0c0.3159890@news.pacificnet.net> <4gvmsi$qco@shiva.usa.net>
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>Alexander Baron  wrote:
>
>	Has anyone objected to this thread? After all, when I posted the
>	phrase dumb Jews, Dan Keren blew a gasket. 
>
>In article <312ca0c0.3159890@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	 I was thinking the same thing when I posted it.
>
>Note that it was Mr. Moran who first posted under the subject heading
>of "Stupid Germans!"  He will very soon forget this fact himself!
>
>
>	Its the 'special exclusion rule' that seems to prevail in
>	the ethnocentric mind set. 'We can say anything we want
>	about anyone but it is anti-Semitic to say anything about
>	Jews, unless it is words of praise.
>
>Who died and left the Jews as the sole guardians of the reputation
>of Germany?
>
>Note that Mr. Moran blames Jews for the phrase "Stupid Germans" even
>though he just admitted it was his own invention!
>
>Mr. Moran apparently thinks that he is perfectly innocent in using
>such a phrase, but that the Jews who respond are guilty if they do
>not condemn it in the strongest terms possible!
>
>When Mr. Baron used the phrase, "Stupid Jews," naturally all the Jews
>in the newsgroup protested.  When Mr. Moran used the phrase, "Stupid
>Germans," it was up to all the Germans who read this newsgroup to
>protest.  Since they did not, the logical conclusion is that there
>either are no Germans reading this newsgroup, or they do not care
>enough about Mr. Moran's nonsense to take offense.

	Well, there are two proposals put absolutely as -
"either"/"or". 
	
	Perhaps any Germans who may be reading the "Stupid Germans"
series realize it is the Holocaust tales and those who make them up
and those who believe them who are the real intended targets for the
"stupid" term.

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>The learned man whose garment is soiled is undeserving of honor.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:16 PST 1996
Article: 25579 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photo Facts
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:52:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <3135af75.152966@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <312dc377.409356@news.pacificnet.net> <31306735.415123@news.pacificnet.net> 
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Nele Abels  wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 	Oh, oh. A new problem. The close up of "crematorium II" on pg.
>> 136 of the Holocaust Museum sponsored book, "Anatmy of the Auschwitz
>> Death Camp" shows the chimney of the building to be located at the
>> center of the structure and appears to be about 8 feet higher than the
>> peak of the roof. This appears even in the shot taken from ground
>> level. If we should raise the camera angle up to the point level with
>> the peak the chimney would probably be shown to be a couple of feet
>> higher.
>
>[blablabla]
>
>> 	A bigger problem for establishing these two photos as
>> representing the same building arises from the photographic fact that
>> the chimney appears to be only about twenty feet from the end in one
>> photo and in the other it looks like it should be 50 feet or more.
>
>
>Am I mislead or is this man trying to say that there was no Holocaust
>because a chimney wasn't high enough? 

	"Mislead"? Perhaps you disread it. "Disread" as opposed to
'misread' meaning you reading into what you want. Why don't you parse
over the post and see if you can point exactly where you were
"mislead". After you do that get back to gist. The two different size
chimneys. 

>Nele



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:19 PST 1996
Article: 25623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Thank You Nizkor
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:47:14 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <313343a0.8054970@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3131dbb1.4933143@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-0.pacificnet.net
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>         Ken McVay has informed the group that the Nizkor Project will
>> be giving Europe, including Germany "Nizkor European Mirror Site". 
>>         We can see that Nizkor has fair resources to expand and
>> expound,
>
>What we can see is that people in Germany realize that Nizkor is a good
>cause, and that they volunteer to donate their time and resources to
>provide mirrors of our material.
>
>No Nizkor "resources" were spent except the time it took for Ken and I
>to exchange some email with our kind volunteer in Germany, and the
>bandwidth it took him to download our entire site.
>
>But since when has the truth stopped Holocaust-deniers from lying about
>us?  Keep it up, Mr. Moran, and you might get a job with Mr. Zuendel!

	Where did Tom Moran ever "lie" about Nizkor?

>Emailed to Mr. Tom "Leaping To Conclusions" Moran.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:20 PST 1996
Article: 25624 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor European Mirror Site
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:47:20 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <313343a6.8060188@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4gs0a7$b6q@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <3131d89a.4142937@news.pacificnet.net> 
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> Naturally you [Nizkor] endorse the right of
>> revisionists pages to be accessible to Europe, right?
>
>Mr. Moran, please get a clue.  Nizkor has made its position on
>censorship clear many times.  The latest:
>
>   For the record, Nizkor supports the EFF's Blue Ribbon
>   Anti-Censorship Campaign, we do not believe that Zuendel or any
>   other Holocaust-denier should be censored, and we oppose the
>   application of "anti-hate-speech" laws to the InterNet.
>
>   http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/censorship/
>
>When Richard Widmann asked Nizkor the same question, I personally
>posted that same text to this same newsgroup (alt.revisionism).
>Please try to pay more attention.

	Jamie, why don't you go ahead and include a statement on the
page, endorsing, and even promoting the free discussion on the
validity of the Holocaust story? On the cmapus, in the press, the Tv,
etc. 


>Posted/emailed, followups to alt.revisionism.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:21 PST 1996
Article: 25625 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'porous pillar'
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:47:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <313343b5.8075567@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4gr8f3$hhg@Vir.com>  <3131e2b9.6733914@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-0.pacificnet.net
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># So you are saying that the wire mesh introduction pillars were
># associated with the crudely made holes, that were made after the
># main construction?
>
>They passed via holes in the roof, yes. As to "crudely made", I
>am not sure what this means; anyway, I will be able to comment
>on this only after I see the roof of the Krema II gas chamber
>myself, or a good photographic reproduction. 

	You say you're "not sure" what "crudely made" means? 
Sure yu do. After the fact, haphazardly, not clearly a professional
job, something that was just chopped through and left crude.
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:21 PST 1996
Article: 25626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Krema II: Aerial View for Tom Moran - krema2.jpg (1/1)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:49:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <3133440e.8164711@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4g8nau$fuo@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4g9741$73o@wi.combase.com> <4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <324752587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4gocjk$298m@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <313080eb.6997664@news.pacificnet.net>  
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article , t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH
>MURRAY) wrote:
>
>> In article <313080eb.6997664@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) writes:
>> 
>> >>>Check out "AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE" by JOHN BALL.
>> >>
>> >>>Available from Samisdat Publishers LTD
>> 
>> >>Which we all know is Ernst Zuendel's publishing house.  Caveat emptor.
>> 
>> > Which McFee finds relevant as proof that the photos are lies.
>> 
>> 
>> Samisdat, Samisdat...ah! Samisdat!  That is the company that puts out all 
>> those wonderful UFO documents isn't it?
>
>The one and only!
>
>It is interesting, however, to see how Ball "interprets" the ariel photos
>used in his book. Specific examples are the photos on pages 70 and 71. In
>the photos labeled taken on May 31, 1944 (Photo 3 and Photo 6). Ball cites
>no smoke from the "burning pits" in Photo 3 (p. 70) and "no smoke rising
>from the chimneys or the ground" in Photo 6 (p.71). Yet, if one looks in
>_Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.341, the ariel photograph taken
>on May 31, 1944, is labelled as showing smoke over and around Krema V. 
>
>What is also interesting is that in Ball's photos of this there appears to
>be some rather noticeable black "splotches" also over and around Krema V.
>In the photo from _Anatomy_ these "splotches" look like white clouds,
>obscurring part of Krema V and the grounds around it, and are labelled as
>smoke. (It appears that Ball has perhaps adjusted the contrast of the
>photos?) 

	The image stated to be smoke in the above mentioned photograph
is shown coming up on the back side of the building, that side with
out the ell wing, the ell wing classically shown as the section that
contains the smoke stack.




From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:24 PST 1996
Article: 25666 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:53:13 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3133281d.1011279@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:
>> 
>> >Dear Group:
>> >Mr.  Van Alstine writes
>> >to Ceacaa,
>> >
>> >After looking through my books I have found, in _Auschwitz: a history in
>> >photographs_, on page 91, a photograph (photo 75) that shows workers
>> >(prisoners) pouring concrete into wood forms containg a lattice of re-bar.
>> >The caption reads:
>> >
>> >"Auscwitz II-Birkenau. Pouring the concrete ceiling of the underground
>> >hall of Gas Chamber and Crematorium II where people were to undress before
>> >being murdered. (Photo taken by the SS, 1943.)"
>> >
>> >Will you accept this photograph and caption, by the SS, as evidence that
>> >the gas-chamber in Krema II was constructed with a re-barred concrete
>> >ceiling poured into wooden forms? 
>> 
>> "Will you agree this photograph and caption ..."  
>
>> No, I don't accept the "caption" is by the SS. Are you saying it is?
>
>Poor wording on my part, let me rephrase it: Will you accept this 
>SS photograph, along with the caption describing the contruction, as 
>evidence that the gas-chamber in Krema II was constructed with a concrete
>and  rebar ceiling that was poured into wooden forms? 

	The two thousand words of "rephrasing" has been deleted. See
his above post for the full blast. The question was directed towards
the "poor wording" about the caption being by the SS and Van Alstine
has corected the matter. 
	As to the rest it seems he is saying there was a photographers
unit at the camp to document the construction of crematoria for
construction sake.
	 Perhaps he can come back and fill us in on what those other
hundreds of photographs are that the SS took of everyday life in the
camps. We would also have to assume that when the SS allegedly burned
all the records, they left behind the photos.




From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Feb 29 23:25:24 PST 1996
Article: 25667 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's fingers and Moran's toes
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:53:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) writes:
>>  In article <312ddfe6.7687962@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>  tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>>  
>>  	Why can't I just go to the library and look some up?
>>  
>>  Indeed!  We have been asking Mr. Moran that very same question for
>>  some time now!
>>
>	And oddly enough when I found a library that had the photographs 
>that L'il Tommy wanted to see he threw a tantrum.

	Yale says the only place the photos exist are in the
Allentown, Penn. library.

>	--YFE




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