The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/mittleman.daniel/1996/mittleman.0996


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  1 08:14:45 PDT 1996
Article: 61395 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INEVITABLE
Date: 31 Aug 1996 18:13 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <32270788.7010187@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>	The demise of the Holocaust story as fact is inevitable. It is on
>>>it's way to becoming the rout of the millennia. Nothing can hold it
>>>back. As sure as the tides come and go, the big lie is on the verge of
>>>global exposure.
>>
>>Oh, yes, you are right Mr. Moran. More and more books about holocaust
>>deniers are published and it is really only a matter of time when "revisionism"
>>will become a new area of historiography. Then their lying will be exposed
>>and analysed more thoroughly than ever.
> 
>	Keep me posted as they appear. Maybe you could give some of the
>titles that are out there right now. Don't bother citing Lipstatd's
>book, I already know this one. Any new ones better be more substancial
>than hers. 

    Ah, so you've read Lipstadt's book, zeyde?  Tell me, why did you not
    find it substantial?  Was it that she focused only on the deniers who
    publish on paper and largely ignored the internet?  Was it that she did
    not contain a section on you?  What should she have done differently to
    make it more substantial?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  1 08:14:46 PDT 1996
Article: 61423 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: 31 Aug 1996 22:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:61423 alt.conspiracy:83862

In article <32283db2.355804@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	Another point to show this article and any others like it are
>total bull is the fact that Israel has been in existence for 50 years,
>and we still do not see a flood of brilliance coming from the racist
>state. All we see are words saying how brilliant the Jews are.
> 
>	After all, Japan has risen to great technological heights in the
>same period, all by themselves. We see the results, we use the
>results, the results are concrete.
> 
>	You can not create innovative brillince by just saying it,
>wishing it, thinking it.
> 
>	If the machinations of Jewish innovative brillance were true, we
>should expect it to stand out here in the U.S., like Henry Ford, Tommy
>Edison, Bill Gates and the rest.

    Can you say "uzi"?

    Look, zeyde, just because you are ignorant of all of the
    accomplishments of Israel does not mean that there are no
    accomplishments.
                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 09:28:10 PDT 1996
Article: 61616 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is amazing among the holohuggers
Date: 1 Sep 1996 21:20 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
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In article <50bvuk$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

>. . . These are the holohuggers.
> 
>They are superstitious, religion beiieving basket cases.  
> 
>They are so stupid that they really believe there was a Moses, that
>the Hebrews were in Israel and an dozen other things to stupid ot
>mention.  
> 
>They are dumber than dogshit. 
>=====
>There's no business like Shoah Business
>Like no business I know.
>Everything about it is appealing,
>Everything that traffic will allow.
>No where can you get that happy feeling
>Then when your stealing

    So Mattypoo, are you still asserting that you are not an anti-semite?
    Are you still asserting that you want to debate facts, but others
    continue to heave insults at you?

    Assert away, oh besotted one...

                          daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 09:28:10 PDT 1996
Article: 61617 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: to keep you folks up to date
Date: 1 Sep 1996 21:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 55
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In article <50bvjo$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	Alec Grynspan continues to mail bomb me (in denfense of another
>holohugger as his sllippery excuse) and uu.net and its subsidiary
>uunet.ca continue to aid and abit his mail bombing despite repeateed
>reports of his activities. 

    Could you describe the structure, frequency and content of these
    mailbombs?

>	It is unclear if harrassment of this sort is criminal but is cerrainly
>a violation of netiquette. 

    If he is truely mailbombing you after you have asked him to stop, then
    it is harrassment.  That is why I would like my question up top to be
    answered.  I would like to know whether what he allegedly is doing
    really constitues harrassment.  Your track record for honesty is SO
    bad, I have no reason to take your word for something like this.  First
    I would like it explained in detail.  Then, if your detail in fact is
    something that is harrassment, I would like to see it documented.

    Otherwise, given your track record, it is just hot air.

>	It is also clear that individual terrorist activities by a person who
>told me that he did wetwork for the Mossad, i.e. was a murderer for
>tha Jewish intelligence organization, so he is happy with this form or
>terrorism.

    This sentence is incoherent.  Are you sober as you write?  Given your
    reputed track record, it is a legitimate question to ask.  Personally,
    I have two pints of ale in me as I write you.

>	He is a minor player.  He in fact lied about being into wetwork but
>there is no reason that I should not gig him on the claim since he
>made it to me on the phone.  

    He is a minor player at what?  He is a major player in alt.revisionism
    as, for example, he has reduced you to goo on numerous occasions.  If
    you know he lied about being into wetwork, then why would you conclude
    he has any interest in terrorism?  I don't know what you mean by "gig". 
    My Merriam-Webster does not list it as a verb.

>	It is the usual braggart claim and it is unlikely to be true.  But
>then, he is a profeessed Jew and mailbombs with the concurrance and
>approval of UUNET.CA.  

    What is a "braggart claim"?  What does his religion have to do with any
    of the above?  I would be surprised if uunet.ca would support mailbombs
    therefore I would like to know more about your mailbombing assertion.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 09:28:11 PDT 1996
Article: 61625 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: defenders oif Keren
Date: 1 Sep 1996 21:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
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In article <50c1lf$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:29:33 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
> 
>>If Giwer is so smart, and everybody else here so stupid,
>>how come Giwer doesn't have a job (poor fellow had to
>>retire at 46, there was no one dumb enough to hire him,
>>apparently), and we all have jobs?
> 
>	Remember, jerkoff, I could retire at 46.  You can no not and enver
>will be able to do that, child.

    Disability checks aren't really retirement.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 09:28:12 PDT 1996
Article: 61626 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: 1 Sep 1996 21:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 46
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In article <3229a7f4.95459@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>		
>	L.A.Times 8/31/96
> 
>	"New Translation of Jewish Holy Book Wins Wide Praise"
> 
>	Worship: Rabbis'
>reinterpretation of ancient
>Hebrew text makes the 
>haftarah text more meaningful
>to the average person,
>religious leaders say.
> 
>	Until now, there has never been a modern English translation and
>commentary of the haftarah, the book of prophets that helps form the
>core of the Jewish identity.
>	Based on nearly 3,000 year old teachings, and written 2,200 years
>ago after the Syrians banned the Jewish Bible, or Torah, the haftarah
>is read at weekly Sabbath services and forms the core of the bar and
>bat mitzvah ceremonies celebrating Jewish youths' initiation to
>adulthood.
>	But the haftarah has remained incomprehensible to most American
>Jews. "The average Jew who goes to synagogue today to hear someone
>read the haftarah is totally at a loss," said Rabbi W. Gunther Plaut
>of Holy Blossom Temple in Toronto. "The text is not understandable, so
>they listen to their neighbor talking".
>	To remedy that, Plaut and New York Rabbi Chaim Stern have
>collaborated on a newly released modern translation of the holy book,
>'Haftarah Commentary'".
> 
>	So it appears that the "core of the Jewish identity" has been
>based on something that has been " incomprehensible", "not
>understandable" and has put any listeners "totally at a loss" as to
>what is being read.

    So how good is your latin, zeyde?

    You, of course, are criticizing something you don't understand at all. 
    What, do they TEACH you to do this in denier school or something?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 09:28:12 PDT 1996
Article: 61645 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Parades His Ignorance and Foolishness: Diesel Engines
Date: 1 Sep 1996 21:26 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 61
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <1SEP199621262273@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <50c0ab$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>	Whois Ken McVay?
> 
>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
>   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>   CA
>   1-604-382-0615
> 
>   Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.
> 
>The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
>Information
>(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
>Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.
> 
>=====
> 
>	The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
>1996 and 19 August 1996.  However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
>address still worked.  It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.  It
>disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
>it was false information.  The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
>openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
>intelligence.  
> 
>===
> 
>McVay, Ken (KM214)
>   1B Systems Management Limited
>   5-1601 Bowen Road
>   Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
>   CA
> 
>   (604) 758-2499
> 
>   kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA
> 
> 
>   Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
> 
>Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
>Information.
>All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
>the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

    When you next sober up, Giwer, you might stop to realize that Ken
    doesn't seem to care that you continually post this information.

    In fact, it has become the laughingstock topic of the week on the
    secret anti-Giwer mailing list.  :>

    ...not that you should be paranoid or anything.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 11:40:06 PDT 1996
Article: 61659 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind
Date: 2 Sep 1996 06:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
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In article <3229c686.7920844@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>	For those of you are new to alt.revisionism, check out any post
>by McVay.
>	McVay is the Web-master of Nizkor, the "The Holocaust Educational
>Resource".

    Thank you, zeyde, for that wonderful plug.  Yes, Nizkor is a
    significant archive of Holocaust educational materials as well as being
    an archive of most everything that is said in alt.revisionism.  At
    Nizkor you will be able to find the arguments put forth by deniers as
    well as information to address and refute those arguments.  At Nizkor
    you will find pointers to both other Holocaust archives and pointers to
    most all of the denier web-sites we know about.  Our belief at Nizkor
    is that everyone should be able to view these denial sites as everyone
    should be open to see for themselves whether or not the denial
    arguments hold water.  (And note that the denial sites do not link back
    to Nizkor.)

>	Aside from his postings from his archives, he never can engage in
>any argument from his own thinking, and more so than that, he expends
>most of his energy in engaging in little "spam" tit for tats with
>others. Check it out. See if you can make any sense out of his little
>posts. 

    On the contrary, back before Tommy was here, Ken used to write
    wonderful posts to a.r.  Over time Ken has cut back on that activity to
    build the archive.  So while all the zeyde may see now are little tit
    for tat exchanges, he is missing the history (hmmm, something familiar
    in that phrase) and he is missing the bulk of work that Ken is
    currently doing.

    Again, thanks zeyde for plugging Nizkor.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 11:40:07 PDT 1996
Article: 61665 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME
Date: 2 Sep 1996 06:52 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2SEP199606523953@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net> <31AUG199618090241@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3229ac51.1212249@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3229ac51.1212249@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    Medias, zeyde?  How many medias can you name?
>>
>>    Almost always the Jews you say.  Ken McVay isn't Jewish.  Gord McFee
>>    isn't Jewish.  Marty Kelley isn't Jewish.  Bill Anderson isn't Jewish. 
>>    Jamie McCarthy isn't Jewish.  Now what was your point?
>>
>>    Rest of the drivel snipped.  There wasn't enough valid in the first
>>    paragraph to keep reading.
> 
>	I was waiting for some fool to come out and cite these on
>alt.revisionism. Okay you have totally obliterated Moran's post by
>citing five (5) individuals. 
>	'Oh, look. There's 5 grains of black sand on the beach, therefore
>the beach is black'.

    Well, zeyde, you made an assertion with no supporting evidence.  I
    produced five data points to counter your unsupported argument.  Now, I
    may have lots more data to continue to counter it or I may not.  But
    you still have not produced anything to support it.  Your assertion is
    vacuous.

    Have a nice day, zeyde.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 13:11:25 PDT 1996
Article: 61685 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: 2 Sep 1996 06:17 MST
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>Laurinda Stryker  wrote:
>>tom moran wrote:

>>> >Not all Israelis support their government's policies.
>>> >Not all supporters of Israeli policies re: the Palestinians are Jews.
>>> >Not all Jews are Zionists.
>>> 
>>>         I've seen this argument put forth before, when the facts are
>>> given blunt like.
>>> 
>>>         The fact is, the latest election in Israel shows that the
>>> majority chose the person who said he was going to break the
>>> "agreements" and U.N. Resolutions. They voted for it.
>>
>>As you know, Netanyahu won by only the slimmest of margins (50.4 
>>percent to 49.5 percent): one can therefore hardly portray Israelis as 
>>monolithic. 
> 
>	Nevertheless, he won. The majority. What the majority really was
>I can not say. Neither can anyone else. All we have is Jewsish sources
>to say it was.

    Zeyde, you can't have it both ways.

    If all the news sources are Jewish and we can't believe them, then all
    those other news items you post which are sometimes embarrassing to
    Israel or to Jews can't be believed either.

    Who knows, maybe those sneaky talmudic Jews are planting embarrassing
    items against themselves for some neferious purpose.  Right, zeyde?

    Hey, anyway zeyde, what about the non-Jewish press.  For example the
    Freedom Newspapers (of which there are several in Southern California,
    the leading one being the Orange County Register), didn't THEY report
    the same results for the Israeli election?  Surely the leading
    non-Jewish, conservative (very conservative) newspaper chain in the US
    wasn't suckered in by the Jewish press, were they, zeyde?  What about
    Cal Thomas?  Is he part of the Jewish press?  If the NY and LA Times
    were lying to us, wouldn't he come out and tell us?  Or do you think
    the Jewish zombies have control of him too?

    You got a lot of questions to anser here, zeyde.  Otherwise your
    argument falls apart.

>>>         The fact is that almost all if not all the commentary in the U.S.
>>> papers by Jews was favorable.
>>
>>Which papers? 
>>Why the exclusive focus on journalists?  
>>(And how do you know which writers are Jews, anyway?  The newspapers 
>>I've come across don't seem to say.)
> 
>	Letters, quotes in articles and columns, all identified or known
>as Jewish. There was also a flurry of "unsigned" editorials that the
>papers, L.A. and N.Y.Times accomodate to Jewish interests. How do I
>know the unsigned editorials are by Jews? By the style and subject.
>Almost always they are the first ones at the top. Will we ever know if
>they were written by Jews? Who knows? If a investigation was mounted
>without any Jewish interference we would know the truth. 

    And if that investigation produced some result you didn't like you
    would insist that somehow the Jews polluted it, right zeyde?

    You have the whole world worked out to support your thesis of HATE HATE
    HATE.  I pity your grandchildren.  Your Jewish grandchildren.

>>>         The fact is that while the Jews in Israel continue with their
>>> unaesthetic policies, Jews in this country plug it as someplace
>>> wonderful and righteous.
>>
>>You don't mean 'unaesthetic'.  Or do you?  
>>And again - *all* Jews? Your sources being...?? 
> 
>	'Unaesthetic", yes.  "*all* Jews"? No.   99.99%, yes.

    "Unaesthetic"?  You have a strange and unique way of words.  Given that
    only about 50% of the Jews in Israel support the policies, by what
    logic do you think 99% of American Jews support them?  Or do you define
    unaesthetic policies to be very general, something along the lines of
    "Israel has a right to exist."  Yeah, 99% of the American Jews would
    agree with those kind of aesthetics.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 13:11:26 PDT 1996
Article: 61689 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist final exam
Date: 2 Sep 1996 06:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
>>rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) writes:

    [some earlier stuff snipped to make it easier for Tommy to follow the
    chain]

>>! This is a ludicrous question. Hitler's totalitarianism was a vehicle for
>>! his racism. See Mein Kampf or the OSS papers:
>>! 
>>!  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/hitler.adolf
>>! 
>>! There have been non-racist totalitarians, yes, and they were not nice
>>! guys. I do not believe that Hitler's racism could be separated from his
>>! totalitarianism, however, because the former motivated the latter.
>>! 
>>! Today's power-mad totalitarian wannabes, like Pierce, Metzger,
>>! Covington, and so on, are not Hitlers. I get the feeling that they yearn
>>! for the days when Hitler could order the murder of twelve million human
>>! beings because they love power, not their "race." Look at Tom Marcellus of
>>! the IHR. He used to be active in the Scientology cult. They're just
>>! different means of scapegoating, to bring out and harness the worst in
>>! other people.
>>! 
>>! Hitler, I think, was different. Deeply psychotic, he really believed. 
>>! Those who really believe as he did will be driven to genocide as a natural
>>! consequence of their hatred for humanity; those who cynically pick
>>! scapegoats to amass money and power will commit genocide capriciously.  I
>>! would say that Hitler's totalitarian terror motivated by race was worse
>>! for the world than petty totalitarian greed, because its propaganda was
>>! more enduring. Petty despots die, and unless they have established a firm
>>! succession, their regimes disappear; but the disease of hate based on
>>! "race" outlives its founder.
>>Fuckhead.
> 
>	"Fuckhead"? Whenever anyone includes or ends up with something
>like that I wonder about their confidence in whatever else they have
>said.
>	Now here we have this person who is attending a university. I
>wonder if he has any friends with whom he shares his alt.revisionism
>posts?
>	It's obvious he has a problem controlling himself. Maybe he is
>going to go on as a professor. I can see him up in front of the class,
>and some kid ask him a tough question and he says, 'Look fuckhead, if
>you want to pass don't ask me any questions'.
>	Anyway, this is the guy who proposed the Cremas II and III were
>built underground so the Germans could get on the roof to pour in the
>Zyklon B pellets.
>	Any talk here about bigotry and racism is selective. He supports
>everything Zionist. 'Oh, that's different.'

    Sorry, zeyde.  It was qut@netcom.com, one of the more virulent deniers
    here who is currently posting under the alias Dave Harmon (Order of
    Berkeley, California) who posted "fuckhead" as a response to a long
    well thought out post. 

    However I do agree with much of what you say above.  Yes, I too wonder
    about their confidence in what else they have said.  Yes, I too think
    they have a problem controlling themselves.

    But this was not the guy who showed you the blueprints that demonstrate
    Cremas II and III were built underground.

    And it is nice to see that once the veil of zionism is lifted, you do
    agree with most everyone else here that when the deniers respond with
    items such as "fuckhead" they demonstrate the void in their own
    arguments.

    See, if you just didn't HATE HATE HATE so much, you too could be a
    decent guy, zeyde.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 13:11:27 PDT 1996
Article: 61690 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:  Evil Egyptians
Date: 2 Sep 1996 08:50 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <50e2e7$1bo8@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) writes...
>  Did you know that over the past fifteen years Israel's GNP has
>>    grown faster than any other nation's?
> 
>Big deal.  isra*l's inflation rate is the highest of any country printing 
>their own money today. Their GNP is measured in terms of stolen sheckels. 

    This is incorrect.  There are several Latin American and Eastern
    European countries with much higher inflation rates than Israel.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 13:31:28 PDT 1996
Article: 71100 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: spreadsheets, word processors, and drunken sots
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Date: 1 Sep 1996 20:58 MST
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In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
responds to Ken McVay and me in entirety with:

>Fuckhead.

    ...which pretty well sums up the white power rangers' intellectual
    arguments.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 15:11:41 PDT 1996
Article: 61725 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
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Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: 2 Sep 1996 09:22 MST
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In article <322afa74.4205003@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
> 
>>  Exactly how many Israelis have "WON NOBEL PRIZES" for stuff like
>>"QUANTUM MECHANICS"? A dozen or so?
> 
>	None.

    Well zeyde, you are right.  Through 1992 (I have an old almanac) no
    Israeli's have wond Nobel Prizes in physics.  Several Jews have won
    them, but no Israelis.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 16:02:24 PDT 1996
Article: 61734 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is and what ain't - II
Date: 2 Sep 1996 07:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
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In article , karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
>>	One should expect that while Pressac was spending his ten years
>>in pouring over these records that he should have come across paper
>>work and plans for other camps, such as Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno
>>and Majdanek.

    [snip]

>(BTW, what was he pouring over those records? Chocolate syrup?)

    My, how unaesthetic.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 17:17:49 PDT 1996
Article: 61747 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: 2 Sep 1996 13:48 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <322b1ffc.13813088@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	
>	Seems Moran has forgotten to include another challenge that he
>made to Holocaust claims.
> 
>	A few months ago, a Daniel Goldhagen, Harvard University
>professor wrote a book "Hitler's Willing Executioners" where he
>claimed the Germans had 10,000 camps where the systematic execution of
>Jews took place. Moran posted the report on the book from an editorial
>that was accommodated the author in the L.A.Times.
>	Moran scoffed at the claim of "10,000" camps and in wee time a
>Mr.Mittleman scoffed at Moran's scoffing of the "10,000" camp
>assertion. 
>	Moran challenged Mr.Mittleman to list just one percent of the
>"10,000" camps (.01%) to which the challenge was never accepted.
>	And all Moran ask for was, one percent.  

    It is _Dr._ Mittleman, zeyde.

    I quite clearly recall that the challange was accepted.  Not only did
    several of us post here Goldhagen's sources for his claim of 10,000
    camps, but multiple people posted listings of camps right here in this
    conference.  I recall one poster offered you a list of over 100 such
    camps. 

    But I will make you this offer.  How about I go look for that old post. 
    If I find it, you donate $100 to Nizkor.  If I can't find it, I
    will donate $100 to the denier organization of your choice.  Deal?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 17:17:50 PDT 1996
Article: 61752 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: 2 Sep 1996 09:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 29
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In article <322aeb06.254961@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	The Jewish mind set can really come up with some far out
>hypothesis when trying to show the brilliant advanced nature of the
>Judaic society.
> 
>	One of their books, written in Israel by an "applied physicist"
>in collaboration with three rabbis, strives ingraciously to show that
>everything that has been discovered in physics to this day was put
>forth in the Torah (Old Testament).
> 
>	Titled, "Genesis and the Big Bang" the author will run through a
>summary of fundamental details of present day physics, from the chromo
>dynamic level of quantum physics to the big bang and then correspond
>it all with a reference to a few words in Genesis.
> 
>	He constantly uses the term "Again we turn to Maimonides ...",
>backing up the wild way out assertions by referring to interpretive
>clarifications done by the Judo-centric rabbi of 800 years ago.

    So what's your point, zeyde?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 17:17:51 PDT 1996
Article: 61753 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: 2 Sep 1996 09:05 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
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In article <322af0e1.1753700@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>	So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
>his opponents. Not only that, the webmaster of the anti-hate web page
>attacks the unknown family member of his opponent. Is he in some
>spiritual abyss? Seems so.   

    And what do you make of people who tell "wee wee" jokes?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 17:17:52 PDT 1996
Article: 61754 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind
Date: 2 Sep 1996 09:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
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In article <322af765.3421333@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>    On the contrary, back before Tommy was here, Ken used to write
>>    wonderful posts to a.r.  Over time Ken has cut back on that activity to
>>    build the archive.  So while all the zeyde may see now are little tit
>>    for tat exchanges, he is missing the history (hmmm, something familiar
>>    in that phrase) and he is missing the bulk of work that Ken is
>>    currently doing.
> 
>>    Again, thanks zeyde for plugging Nizkor.
> 
>		Thanks for your confirmation and agreement with my points.

    If what you said is what is in my paragraph above, then you are
    welcome.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 18:36:14 PDT 1996
Article: 61760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: 2 Sep 1996 13:41 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2SEP199613411235@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322af0e1.1753700@news.pacificnet.net>  <322b2706.15614847@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <322b2706.15614847@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (Tom Moran) wrote:
>>
>>>     Moran had posted "What is "trolling"?   
>>>                         
>>>     "I see a lot of dubbing of 'troller' or 'trolling' out here. What
>>> does that mean? 
>>
>>A fair question, to which Ken McVay gave various clever, subtle, and
>>educational responses -- and some not-so-subtle responses.  After
>>recounting these answers, Tom Moran wrote:
>>
>>>     So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
>>> his opponents.
>>
>>Unbelievable.
>>
>>He still doesn't get it.
>>
>>Just incredible.
>>
>>I will try again to explain to Mr. Moran.
>>
>>Mr. Moran -- you are a sexual Pervect, you play dice with gangsters,
>>you cheat on your state income tax, and you fraternize with known
>>haberdashers.  All this has been proven many times in this forum.
>>It's all available on the web of course.  Your failure to respond to
>>any of it is simply admission of your own guilt.  How do you respond
>>to this?
> 
>	Thank you, Jamie McCarthy, co-Webmaster of Nizkor, the anti-hate
>"Holocaust Educational Resource" web page, for your public endorsement
>of record for Nizkor Webmaster Ken McVay's public allegation that
>Moran's sister is a hooker. 

    Trollin' trollin' trollin'
    All your posts are trollin'
    My splittin' sides are rollin'
    High five!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 20:59:37 PDT 1996
Article: 61791 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: World's Sick of the Holocaust
Date: 2 Sep 1996 19:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2SEP199619351967@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3225a5ff.1532846@news.pacificnet.net>  <322afb25.4382191@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <322afb25.4382191@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>>	Recent developments show that the World is sick of the Holocaust.
>>
>>Nothing new here. The Holocaust is an extremely unpleasant subject.
>>Hilberg just published a new book detailing how difficult it was to
>>get his first book published.
> 
>	How ridiculous. If a Jew wants to have something published, it
>gets published.

    Tell that to Barton Fink!

    [another allusion that the zeyde will no doubt miss.  Oh well, at least
    he is finally spelling "ridiculous" correctly.]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 21:11:08 PDT 1996
Article: 61792 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does the "A-Team" get paid?
Date: 2 Sep 1996 19:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2SEP199619454147@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3229a8cf.314665@news.pacificnet.net> <50g1c9$r34@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <50g1c9$r34@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes...
>In message <3229a8cf.314665@news.pacificnet.net> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) writes:
> 
>:>	Who knows, maybe all the names on the "A-Team" are aliases.
> 
>We've already admitted that.  Tom must have missed the McFeestein threads when
>he was off in Jellystone park gnawing on a bone.

    My real name is Shlomo Moran.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  2 23:29:24 PDT 1996
Article: 61799 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 2 Sep 1996 19:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2SEP199619423735@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against Demjanjuk for
>perjury?  
> 
>	Or is that a silly question?  

    It's a silly question.

    Actually, it's a troll.

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    In fact, here's another one...

>=====
> 
>There's no business like Shoah Business
>Like no business I know.
>Everything about it is appealing,
>Everything that traffic will allow.
>No where can you get that happy feeling
>Then when your stealing
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep  3 07:43:50 PDT 1996
Article: 61818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: 2 Sep 1996 09:17 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 57
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2SEP199609171915@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3229a7f4.95459@news.pacificnet.net> <1SEP199621351065@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322af81c.3604617@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <322af81c.3604617@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>    So how good is your latin, zeyde?
> 
>	Latin? Who said anything about "Latin". How do you know it wasn't
>in Hebrew? It probably wasn't since Hebrew was not a language the
>world found worthy of using in lieu of far superior languages. Maybe
>it was written in Latin, who knows. Nevertheless, what does it have to
>do with the points of the post?

    No no no, zeyde.  I was drawing an analogy.  But I apologize as my
    analogy assumed a good deal of knowledge and intellect which you
    apparently don't have (as you didn't get it).

    You pointed out how many American Jews don't understand the haftorah as
    it is in Hebrew and most (well, many at least) American Jews don't
    speak Hebrew.  So this very important docuement out of their grasp. 
    But you reported that someone is now preparing an English translation
    to bring the document to American Jews.  You disparaged the fact that a
    generation or two of American Jews could follow in Jewish traditions
    without being able to read the haftorah.

    I drew the analogy of Catholic services being in latin.  For many
    generations American Catholics could not follow major portions of
    Catholic rites as they were given in latin.  Eventually the Catholic
    church changed and allowed those rites to be given in English.  Now,
    those Catholics weren't wrong in following Catholicism during the
    generations they didn't understand those rites.  They weren't wrong as
    the Church worked hard to explain what was in the latin even though it
    was in latin.  They weren't wrong because there was much else done in
    the Church in English and the Catholics had a pretty good idea of the
    big picture.

    It is exactly the same for American Jews and Hebrew.  While portions of
    the religious writings are in Hebrew, much of what happens in American
    Temples and Synagouges is in English.  Further, Rabbis take great care
    to explain the portions of services that are in Hebrew.  Therefore,
    American Jews have a good deal of understanding of what is being said
    in shule.

    Capice? 

>>    You, of course, are criticizing something you don't understand at all. 
>>    What, do they TEACH you to do this in denier school or something?
> 
>	I find it poetic you use the words "don't understand at all"
>directed towards me, yet this is what the post is all about, only with
>something that has been read to the Hebrews for centuries.

    I stand by those remarks.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep  3 13:21:00 PDT 1996
Article: 61915 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: 3 Sep 1996 07:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 50
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3SEP199607363306@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3229a7f4.95459@news.pacificnet.net> <1SEP199621351065@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322af81c.3604617@news.pacificnet.net> <322c288d.3626423@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <322c288d.3626423@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>    No no no, zeyde.  I was drawing an analogy.  But I apologize as my
>>    analogy assumed a good deal of knowledge and intellect which you
>>    apparently don't have (as you didn't get it).
>>
>>    You pointed out how many American Jews don't understand the haftorah as
>>    it is in Hebrew and most (well, many at least) American Jews don't
>>    speak Hebrew.  So this very important docuement out of their grasp. 
>>    But you reported that someone is now preparing an English translation
>>    to bring the document to American Jews.  You disparaged the fact that a
>>    generation or two of American Jews could follow in Jewish traditions
>>    without being able to read the haftorah.
> 
>	Who said the haftarah, read before this new version, was written
>in Hebrew?

    I don't recall now what you said.  The haftorahs I have seen were all
    written in Hebrew.  I have seen several copies in my lifetime.

>>    I drew the analogy of Catholic services being in latin.  For many
>>    generations American Catholics could not follow major portions of
>>    Catholic rites as they were given in latin.  Eventually the Catholic
>>    church changed and allowed those rites to be given in English.  Now,
>>    those Catholics weren't wrong in following Catholicism during the
>>    generations they didn't understand those rites.  They weren't wrong as
>>    the Church worked hard to explain what was in the latin even though it
>>    was in latin.  They weren't wrong because there was much else done in
>>    the Church in English and the Catholics had a pretty good idea of the
>>    big picture.
>>
>>    It is exactly the same for American Jews and Hebrew.  While portions of
>>    the religious writings are in Hebrew, much of what happens in American
>>    Temples and Synagouges is in English.  Further, Rabbis take great care
>>    to explain the portions of services that are in Hebrew.  Therefore,
>>    American Jews have a good deal of understanding of what is being said
>>    in shule.
>>
>>    Capice? 

    So, do you now get my analogy, or are you so dense you still don't
    understand?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep  3 13:21:01 PDT 1996
Article: 61924 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewrassic Park
Date: 3 Sep 1996 07:26 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3SEP199607265429@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50h6j0$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50h6j0$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	JewRasic Park had been seeded with a miiiion US.  It is good to see we
>can indebt tuture generations for the fun of it.  After all, we do it
>to pay for the medical care of our parents, who not for the pet peeve
>of Spielberg>
>=====
> 
>There's no business like Shoah Business
>Like no business I know.
>Everything about it is appealing,
>Everything that traffic will allow.
>No where can you get that happy feeling
>Then when your stealing

    Memo to Nizkor: How DARE we start the name calling by referring to this
    man as an anti-semite!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep  3 13:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 61960 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A minor question
Date: 2 Sep 1996 19:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2SEP199619395504@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50fsoc$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50fsoc$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	Why is that didn't discover anything peculiar about Auschwitz until
>after the end of the war?  

    I dunno...  maybe it was becaust THERE WAS A WAR GOING ON!!!!!

>=====
> 
>There's no business like Shoah Business
>Like no business I know.
>Everything about it is appealing,
>Everything that traffic will allow.
>No where can you get that happy feeling
>Then when your stealing 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep  3 20:09:58 PDT 1996
Article: 61970 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Parades His Ignorance and Foolishness: Diesel Engines
Date: 3 Sep 1996 07:25 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 113
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3SEP199607252883@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <509ss3$621@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50c0ab$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50h5uj$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50h5uj$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	But, with the complicity of uunet.ca, Alec Grynapsn continues his mail
>bombing.  So what is your problem with my post that?  

    "So what is your problem with my post that?"  My problem with your
    posts is that they are often not in English.  The general assumption
    here is that you are drunk when you make these posts.

>	Would you like copy of all 600megs fo his mail bombs in your mailbox
>or simply on this newsgroup?  

    On this newsgroup please.  I don't have enough disk space to handle
    600meg.

>	You tell me.  I would not like you to be left a doubter in this.  

    I told ya.  Now, why don't you slowly and clearly explain the whole
    chain of events of this mailbombing.  So far all I have read from you
    are rants.

>	How much evidence do you want of the Mossad wetwork types that
>represent the holohuggers?  Other than that the sick in the head
>admire them, they are merely human.  

    You acknowledged a day or two ago that Grynspan was lying to you when
    he said he did wetwork.  Why are you falling back into your libel
    stance now?

>	So you do not like it, so what?  

    Huh?  Do not like what?  You are rambling again.  This reads like one
    of your alleged drunken posts.

>	Wetwork is murder.  That is clear.  There are no two ways about it.
>Name one Arab member of the Mossad.  None?  Thank you.  It is a Jewish
>organization.  

    But you said recently that he was lying when he said he did wetwork.

>	So what do you call wetwork for the Mossad other than murder for a
>Jewish intelligence organization?

    Therefore, this point is moot.

>	Now look, I do not mean to single out Alec based upon a phone
>conversation.  The most recent Jewish murder by the Mossad that has
>made the US news was someone who picked up his C-fone and it blew his
>head off,

    Whatever...

>	Members of the Mossad are murderes in the same manner that aoy
>connected with the SS were murderers.

    Whatever...

>	They deserve no bette treatment.

    Whatever...

>	Novels, movies they all make their emotional impression but in fact
>the people involved are murders or complicite in murder.

    Whatever...  So, what has any of this to do with the Holocaust or with
    Nizkor?

>	They have no right to exist on this earth as they are no better than
>those they murder.

    Whatever...

>	They exist in a "holier than thou" zone where the entertainment
>fantasy holds that they can never and never do any wrong.  They are
>always right.  

    You do realize that you are coming across like a loon here, don't you?

>	Were that a valid principle we could turn over all justice to Dirty
>Harry, which is the point.  Such a fantasy of a just world never
>occurs becasuse it can not exist.  Humans are not capable of it.

    You haven't takne your medication today have you?

>	Any rational group would seek out those who have killed for hire and
>kill them.  Better the world is without them.  And that does not
>matter what side they are one at the moment.  

    I see?  And your psychiatrists name is...?

>	They are the scum of the earth.  They are murderers.  They are not
>human.  They are monster spawn of the human race. 

    OK OK, you just sit still here and the men in the big white van will be
    here soon...

>	Of course, after all of the above, I do wish to remind you that to the
>best of my belief, Alec Grynspan is a bullshit artist and we never
>involved in wetwork or even the Mossad.

    Ah yes.  So it was all just libel on your part...  So Alec got to you
    just the way he said he would and turned you into a blubbering idiot? 
    Well, those men in the white van will be here soon now...

>	Save yoru rounds for the real ones.  

    OK Matty, whatever you say...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep  3 20:09:59 PDT 1996
Article: 61977 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Giwer: The Himmler tape
Date: 3 Sep 1996 07:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3SEP199607323778@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4veimi$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4vggrj$esg@news.enter.net> <4vikjj$46u@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:61977 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:516

In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article <50h41d$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
>>         McVay now signs his posts oneb.nizkor.bc.ca.  Onbe was DOD parent
>> organization of the other McVay.

    But his address you pulled down was oneb.whimsey.bc.ca.

    The "other" McVay?  And who, prey tell, is the other McVay?

>>         Admit you have been suckered in for a change.  
>> 
>>         You have been had by a US DOD employee/contractor.  He lied to you.
>> His followers lied to you.  Get over it.  
>>  
>Hey, boys and girls! Can you say P-A-R-A-N-O-I-A?
> 
>I knew that you could.
> 
>Ken McVay has no "followers," Mr. Giwer.
> 
>I ought to know.
> 
>I go to all the meetings.

    I missed you at the last meeting  :>

    As a DOD contractor (I really am), I go to those meetings too.  Funny,
    I never see Ken McVay there.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep  3 20:09:59 PDT 1996
Article: 61983 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: 3 Sep 1996 06:51 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
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In article <322c2921.3774116@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
>>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>>  	If the machinations of Jewish innovative brillance were true, we
>>>  should expect it to stand out here in the U.S., like Henry Ford, Tommy
>>>  Edison, Bill Gates and the rest.
>>
>>	How many American Jews have won the Nobel Prize in the sciences, 
>>l'il tommy?
> 
>	I don't know. But they all have European names, mostly German.
>Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

    What American names are not European, zeyde?  And how many Nobel prizes
    have they won (Jewish or not)?

>	I have seen many times Jews citing the Nobel Prize, but I don't
>ever recall seeing a direct German rave about the ones they have
>recieved - or anyone else. Its a Jewish trait to self rave. In the
>U.S. medias, it is the 2% doing the 100% raving.

    Provide for us one cite of a Jew "raving" about having won a Nobel
    Prize in the US media.

    How many medias (sic) do you think the US has?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 07:05:05 PDT 1996
Article: 62179 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp.wwwi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: 3 Sep 1996 20:37 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
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In article <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>======================================================================
>	"Three months from now, Mr. Moron, too busy trying to find a
>hooker to take his sister's place, will still not have figured it
>out."
>======================================================================

    So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go 
    fishing?  

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 07:05:06 PDT 1996
Article: 62181 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: 3 Sep 1996 21:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 70
Distribution: world
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Marty Kelley  writes...
>On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote:

>> 	If one of your students should turn in a paper with revisionistic
>> views, how would you grade him? 
> 
>That's a fascinating question, and it's one which I often ask my classes
>to consider. I haven't encountered such a situation, because I've been
>lucky enough to have mostly sane students. Every semester, I introduce the
>assignment on argument and research by discussing in some detail what
>constitutes valid evidence in an argument.  Perhaps you would like to
>write a letter to my class--or send them e-mail, since they will
>eventually be using e-mail--explaining what you consider the proper
>approach to researching historical events.

    Whenever I teach an introductory class (I've taught both Introduction
    to Business and Introduction to MIS) I assign the students to write a
    letter to the editor of the local newspaper.  While I generally
    encourage them to write on a topic loosely related to the syllabus of
    the course, I let them know that what is important is that they write
    about something they care about.

    I have had a couple of students over the years choose to write their
    letters about abortion.  Some of the students have taken a position on
    abortion directly counter to my own.

    I have graded them on the logic and structure of their argument.  I
    have found that I am able to do this even if I don't agree with their
    premises.  I don't see why any good instructor would have a problem
    with this.

    To relate this with denier writing in alt.revisionism: there is a wide
    disparity in quality among denier writers.  Milt Kleim, for example,
    can string together a decent argument.  Greg Raven is dishonest, but
    his logic structure is usually valid.  Ross Vicksell was an excellent
    writer and debater.  Other deniers range from moderately literate to
    barely able to string together multiple thoughts.  I can judge all this
    knowing full well the content of denier posts is garbage. 

>> How could you grade him -
>> subjectively? It seems clear from your posted attitudes that you
>> couldn't possibly treat his paper with anything but prejudice.
> 
>Again, this is a fascinating general topic for me and for many
>teachers--how do we deal with students whose prejudices surface in their
>papers? The most memorable example of this that I've encountered was a
>student several years ago who responded to an article called "The Media's
>Stereotypes of Arabs" by claiming that he thought that the stereotypes
>were all TRUE--that he thought most Arabs were likely to be terrorists,
>murderers, or ignorant lowlifes.  When we met to discuss revising his
>paper, I told him I really couldn't tell him how to "improve" his
>argument, since it was so obviously full of prejudice.  We talked for a
>while, and he eventually told me that he disliked Arabs because he had
>family in Israel and he feared for their safety.  I asked him then what
>he'd say to a student who tried to argue that stereotypes of Jews were
>true, and he began to understand what was wrong with his thesis.  He ended
>up writing a fairly good paper about why he held the stereotypes that he
>did--I don't know if he became less of a bigot, but his paper was fairly
>thoughtful.

    Very interesting story.  And an example of what college students learn
    that is not part of any syllabi.  People who have never gone to college
    - and some who have - don't appreciate this domain of learning.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 07:05:07 PDT 1996
Article: 62187 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp.wwwi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: 3 Sep 1996 20:34 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3SEP199620341936@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net>  <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
> 
>	You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he
>is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster'
>of a website and a "director"?

    Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg complex, so
    we let him call himself "the Director."

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 09:23:31 PDT 1996
Article: 138723 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!newsrelay.netins.net!news.netins.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3SEP199620234893@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Control: cancel <3SEP199620234893@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: 3 Sep 1996 20:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 7
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                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 09:28:58 PDT 1996
Article: 62208 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 84
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199606243580@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <50j8bl$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:31:49 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>	
> 
>>	Moran had posted "What is "trolling"? 	
>>			
>>	"I see a lot of dubbing of 'troller' or 'trolling' out here. What
>>does that mean? 
>>	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
>>You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling."
>>                        ---------------
> 
>>	Ken McVay, anti-hate star of the Internet and Web-Master of
>>Nizkor, "A Holocaust Educational Resource", responded:
> 
>>"I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
>>inability to use the English language properly, brush your
>>teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
>>manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.
> 
>>There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
>>(Somehow, I doubt it.)"
>>                        -------------
>>                  
>>	Moran reposted the exchange under "McVay, down by the school
>>yard" and McVay popped in again, this time to add:
> 
>>"Prophetic, eh? I doubted that Mr. Moran had the brains to
>>figure it out back then, and I was absolutely right. Even now,
>>months later, he is _still_ too stupid to figure it out. 
> 
>>Prediction #2: Three months from now, Mr. Moron, too busy
>>trying to find a hooker to take his sister's place, will still
>>not have figured it out."
>>                        ------------
> 
>>	So here we have this person who is the web-master of the widely
>>known Nizkor, "Holocaust Educational Resource" resorting to attacking
>>a family member of his opponent. Here again as with his previous out
>>burst against Moran himself, he uses a sexual innuendo.
> 
>>	Sex is an interesting subject with humans. The biologist might
>>state the basic function of sex is to prolifigate, and for the most
>>part, in the animal world, this might be correct. 
>>	But with humans it has developed into something far more complex.
>>Outside of the basic union of romance, sex can be used for revenge, to
>>manipulate, as a means of dominance and in many cases as an act of
>>self destruction brought on by stress and self hatred.
>>     This is what happened to the recent Democratic big wig, Morris,
>>who was found out to be consorting with a hooker. We should ask, why
>>would such a person with the position he had, take a chance on
>>destroying it all?  After all there has been many other incidents
>>where leaders have gotten themselves flushed for similar acts and it
>>wouldn't be a matter that he was ignorant of the likely consequences.
>>	
>>	So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
>>his opponents. Not only that, the webmaster of the anti-hate web page
>>attacks the unknown family member of his opponent. Is he in some
>>spiritual abyss? Seems so.   
> 
>	It is more likely the original rumors are true as to his bisexual
>nature and that his co-conspirators are his current partners.  

    Well, yes, we knew that you understood trolls.  After all, we are
    practicing them at the feet of a master.

>	The really good thing about these blind attacks by the holohuggers is
>if they should ever get around to their legal nonsense.
> 
>	"Mr. McVay, did you not in fact my client's sister ..."  It is quite
>damaging to the credibility of the complainant.  

    No one is contemplating legal action against Tommy.  When (if!) you
    ever get up the courage to proceed with charges against anyone you
    threaten, we will see if these trolls have any bearing at all in your
    case.  I suspect not.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 09:28:59 PDT 1996
Article: 62209 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:07 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199606073620@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <322C9C17.22AA@rio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <322C9C17.22AA@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  writes...
>Chuck Ferree writes:
> 
>#Demjanjuk, may not have been "Ivan The Terrible," but I'll bet my 
>farm that he was "Somebody the Terrible."

    Why?  What specific evidence do you have?

>In my opinion, after considerable study, this man was a war criminal. 
>He was tried and found not guilty, but so was O.J. Simpson.

    There was very solid evidence IMHO that Simpson was guilty.  The DNA
    evidence, for example, eliminated everyone else.  Is there
    corresponding evidence that Demjanjuk was guilty?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 09:28:59 PDT 1996
Article: 62214 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: 4 Sep 1996 07:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 52
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199607010613@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50js92$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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    We have below here a summary of the Matt Giwer philosphy of the world. 
    To sum:  "Anyone who doesn't wee the world exactly as Matt Giwer sees it
    is an idiot."  This philosophy works very well as all questions are
    answered by it.  And as a further bonus, since no one sees the world
    exactly as Matt Giwer sees it, everone is an idiot.  Except for Matt
    Giwer.  To wit:

In article <50js92$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>	I had to break the truth to you slowly.  
> 
>	Anyone who identifies with anything that is without rational
>foundation is an idiot.  That includes Christians, Moslems and Jews.
>They are all idiots.  But you know that.  
> 
>	Try getting over it.  There is no god(s), period.  Therefore there is
>no religion.  Therefore there is nothing of interest that is in any
>manner related to anything like it.
>	
>	Is this too hard for your to grasp?  
> 
>	Anyone who hung on to any religion for any reason and was persecuted
>for it was simply an idiot.  Anyone who hangs on to any religion today
>is an idiot.  
> 
>	That means that all Christians, Jews and Moslems among many others are
>idiots.  All of them.  
> 
>	Why do you have such a problem grasping this?  Are you a god believing
>idiot?  
> 
>	And yes, one can be Jewish by birth because of a man made rule.  A man
>made rule has of tribal membership has no more value than any other
>man made rule.  Jewish by birth has no greater merit than a rule
>against jaywalking.  
> 
>	It is truly laughable to see all the committed Jews and those
>committed to Jews supporting man made rules from thousands of years
>ago as though they were something more interesting that residency
>rules for voting.  
> 
>	What is a jew and where do you vote are of equal value and importance.

    PS: Giwer gives us atheists a bad name.  I wish he would go find his
    own non-religion.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 09:29:00 PDT 1996
Article: 62216 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199606440877@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:55:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
> 
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
>># When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against
>># Demjanjuk for perjury?
> 
>>Can you prove that they are guilty of perjury?
> 
>	He was not in the camp described.  Therefore they lied.  What is so
>hard about that?  

    It's hard becuase it is inconsistent with other assertions you have
    posted.  Didn't you just a day or so ago post that eyewitness testimony
    given fifty years after the fact is necessarily polluted?  Didn't you
    yourself say that even if these people THINK they are telling the
    truth, it is impossible to separate the truth from what they have been
    told during the intervening 50 years?

    Did you notice that even though people here jump on most everything you
    say, no one jumped on that particular point?  So why do you contradict
    it now?

    NB: even though there are problems with the historical accuracy of 50
    year old testimony, good historians can make use of it in a careful
    limited way.  50 year old testimony in court is extremely limited and
    risky, however.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 09:29:01 PDT 1996
Article: 62217 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:48 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199606481054@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <2SEP199619423735@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50jj11$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50jj11$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 2 Sep 1996 19:42 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>	When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against Demjanjuk for
>>>perjury?  
>>> 
>>>	Or is that a silly question?  
> 
>>    It's a silly question.
> 
>>    Actually, it's a troll.
> 
>	Actually you are defending deliberate and willful perjurers as the
>only thing that holocaust is based upon is subborned perjury.  

    Since you can't keep your mind focused, I have no idea whether you are
    accusing me of defending Holocaust eyewitnesses, or Demjanjuk accusors,
    the latter being a very small subsection of the former.  I am quite
    confident that I have NEVER posting anything defending Demjanjuk
    accusors.

    And I have never seen credible evidence that either group is guilty of
    purgery (though I have seen substantial examples of each group being
    mistaken at times.)

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 09:29:02 PDT 1996
Article: 62220 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:53 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199606535261@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com>  <502sor$8lf@Vir.com> <505mrj$uii@Vir.com>  <50jrh0$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50jrh0$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 3 Sep 1996 13:39:30 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>anderson) wrote:
> 
>>I'm not sure how that can be considered a contradiction, Matt.  Everybody
>>who has studied the tape agrees that it's Himmler.  You deny it, for 
>>reasons you haven't made clear.  You've been presented with a simple
>>challenge:  the tape can be subjected to voice analysis, and if it's 
>>Himmler, you pay for the analysis.  So far, you show every sign of 
>>chickening out.
> 
>>But that's not suprising.
> 
>	You holos are still lying out of both sides of your huggers.  I am not
>impressed wtih this crap.  You holos have no idea what you are
>supporting.  You post contrary to each other and you lie in support of
>each other.
> 
>	You are beneath further notice.

    Translation:  You got me.  But I am not man enough to admit it.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 10:48:53 PDT 1996
Article: 62241 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199606295126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322b1602.11258361@news.pacificnet.net> <50jcd6$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50jcd6$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>	But then his techniques here are the until oxymoron, in the
>intelligence business with his intelligence?  

    Maybe Giwer is dyslexic?  I can't imagine that only drink would cause
    this...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 10:48:54 PDT 1996
Article: 62242 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:34 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199606341705@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322b1602.11258361@news.pacificnet.net> <322b1ffc.13813088@news.pacificnet.net> <2SEP199613483113@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50jcki$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50jcki$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	
>	Back when I asked after Keren's degree year he refused to post it as I
>said that I would drop the quarter to verify it.  Since he has shown
>complete ignorance of spreadsheets, I will no longer bother to drop
>the quarter.

    I have no idea what you are talking about.  This is gibberish.

>	But the offer is open to you.  Full name, degree field, granting
>institution and year.  I'll drop the quarter on you.  

    Daniel David Mittleman
    The Graduate College, Major in Management
    The University of Arizona
    1995

    Have fun.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 10:48:55 PDT 1996
Article: 62243 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I'm _not_ a Nazi!
Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:38 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199606384800@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <50g2v7$2ds@news.enter.net> <9Y1BoOev1OZ1065yn@login.dknet.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <9Y1BoOev1OZ1065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes...
>In article <50g2v7$2ds@news.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>>
>>>    The courts in Denmark have ruled that it is libel to call you a racist if 
>>>  you are just an opponent of the immigration and the multiethnic society. You 
>>>  must have advocated the superiority of your own race and the natural right 
>>>  to rule over the other races in order to make legal to label you a racist 
>>>  in public. (In English this is called [e.g. White] supremacy.)
>>
>>       You have done so, nazi-boy.
> 
> I have never advocated that one race should have the right to rule over 
>other races. This will inevitablely lead to miscegenation in the long run. 
>I have just advocated that the races should live seperately. That would be
>the best for all and in particular the weaker races.

    How dare you imply the Danish stem from a weak race!  I have good
    firends from Denmark and I resent that insinuation.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 10:48:56 PDT 1996
Article: 62252 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: 4 Sep 1996 07:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199607324948@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322b1602.11258361@news.pacificnet.net> <322b1ffc.13813088@news.pacificnet.net> <2SEP199613483113@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322d8445.3944219@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <322d8445.3944219@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
>"Dr." Mittleman:
>>>    It is _Dr._ Mittleman, zeyde.
> 
>Giwer:
>>	Another PhD?  Golly we are being inundated by the clowns.  
>>	
>>	Back when I asked after Keren's degree year he refused to post it as I
>>said that I would drop the quarter to verify it.  Since he has shown
>>complete ignorance of spreadsheets, I will no longer bother to drop
>>the quarter.
>>
>>	But the offer is open to you.  Full name, degree field, granting
>>institution and year.  I'll drop the quarter on you.  
> 
>	I'd be interested in knowing myself, Mr., Dr. Mittleman.

    That would be "Herr Dr. Mittleman" to you, zeyde.

    Daniel David Mittleman
    Graduate College, Major in Management
    The University of Arizona
    1995

    That make you feel better?
    Be careful in drawing conclusions from that information, all is not
    what it seems.
                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 10:48:57 PDT 1996
Article: 62259 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: 4 Sep 1996 07:30 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199607301703@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net>  <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>	You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he
>>>is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster'
>>>of a website and a "director"?
>>
>>    Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg complex, so
>>    we let him call himself "the Director."
> 
>	"We"?  Who is "we"?

    The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG for short).  I know we exist, I
    even have the t-shirt to prove it!

    No, seriously, "we" would be all of the people loosely involved with
    Nizkor (though I don't know why I am answering you seriously now given
    my nothing else I have said in this thread is anything more than a
    troll.)
                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Sep  4 10:48:57 PDT 1996
Article: 62260 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: 4 Sep 1996 07:26 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199607263468@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net>  <322d7eed.2575543@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <322d7eed.2575543@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>>On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>
>>>> 	If one of your students should turn in a paper with revisionistic
>>>> views, how would you grade him? 
>>
>>    Whenever I teach an introductory class (I've taught both Introduction
>>    to Business and Introduction to MIS) I assign the students to write a
>>    letter to the editor of the local newspaper.  While I generally
>>    encourage them to write on a topic loosely related to the syllabus of
>>    the course, I let them know that what is important is that they write
>>    about something they care about.
>>
>>    I have had a couple of students over the years choose to write their
>>    letters about abortion.  Some of the students have taken a position on
>>    abortion directly counter to my own.
>>
>>    I have graded them on the logic and structure of their argument.  I
>>    have found that I am able to do this even if I don't agree with their
>>    premises.  I don't see why any good instructor would have a problem
>>    with this.
>>
>>    To relate this with denier writing in alt.revisionism: there is a wide
>>    disparity in quality among denier writers.  Milt Kleim, for example,
>>    can string together a decent argument.  Greg Raven is dishonest, but
>>    his logic structure is usually valid.  Ross Vicksell was an excellent
>>    writer and debater.  Other deniers range from moderately literate to
>>    barely able to string together multiple thoughts.  I can judge all this
>>    knowing full well the content of denier posts is garbage. 
>>
>	Where did you say you 'teach'?	

    In my first sentence up top.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 07:28:50 PDT 1996
Article: 62487 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: 4 Sep 1996 18:50 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199618500667@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net>  <322da8a8.13258620@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <322da8a8.13258620@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>>	Where did you say you 'teach'?	
>>
>>    In my first sentence up top.
> 
>	"MIS"?

    Management Information Systems (I taught it at the University of
    Arizona)

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 10:20:33 PDT 1996
Article: 62594 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Morons are biting!
Date: 5 Sep 1996 06:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 65
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In article <50mf1g$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 4 Sep 1996 17:05:54 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
>OBC) wrote:
> 
>>In article <322DFB40.3577@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:
> 
>>>Tell you what, Moran, go ask your friend Giwer.  He likes Python.  He'll
>>>explain it to you.
> 
>>Some minor nits to pick:
> 
>>1. Mr. Giwer has no friends.
>>2. Mr. Giwer is demonstrably incapable of explaining anything.
>>3. Mr. Moran is demonstrably incapable of understanding it, anyway
>>   - he refuses to update his collander, which is still running 0.6b.
> 
> 
>>-- 
>>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/search.html
>>-----------------------| http://search.nizkor.org/search.html
>>                       |--------------------------------------
>>Bored? Try http://www.nizkor.org/giwerundean-lesson.cgi
> 
>	Whois Ken McVay?

    Ken McVay is the Director of the Nizkor Project, which fights
    anti-semitism and Holocaust denial on the web.

>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
>   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>   CA
>   1-604-382-0615

    As Giwer has been so kind to repeatedly post this address, I would like
    to point out that while this is not the best address to use, you can
    send contributions to the Nizkor Project to this address.  They will be
    properly received and placed to good use.  You will receive a Canadian
    Tax receipt for your donation (which will work just fine in Canada no
    matter what Matt Giwer insists).  If you wish to make an American
    contribution for an American tax receipt, there is a different address
    (which maybe Giwer will decide to post one day.)

    Each time you see Giwer post this silly troll in place of a real answer
    to questions put to him, just remember that he is a prime reason for
    you to consider making a donation to the above address.

    And if you doubt that Giwer is an anti-semite, just remember he always
    .sigs his posts these days with:

>=====
>There's no business like Shoah Business
>Like no business I know.
>Everything about it is appealing,
>Everything that traffic will allow.
>No where can you get that happy feeling
>Then when your stealing
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 10:20:34 PDT 1996
Article: 62598 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 5 Sep 1996 06:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 74
Distribution: world
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References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <50mdb4$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <50mdb4$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 4 Sep 1996 06:44 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:55:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>wrote:
>>> 
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>> 
>>>># When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against
>>>># Demjanjuk for perjury?
>>> 
>>>>Can you prove that they are guilty of perjury?
>>> 
>>>	He was not in the camp described.  Therefore they lied.  What is so
>>>hard about that?  
> 
>>    It's hard becuase it is inconsistent with other assertions you have
>>    posted.  Didn't you just a day or so ago post that eyewitness testimony
>>    given fifty years after the fact is necessarily polluted?  Didn't you
>>    yourself say that even if these people THINK they are telling the
>>    truth, it is impossible to separate the truth from what they have been
>>    told during the intervening 50 years?
> 
>	Excuse me.  I was unaware you believe everyone related to the
>prosecution in this case should be brought up on charges of malicious
>prosecution and abuse of process.  
> 
>	OK, fine with me.  
> 
>	But the bottom line is who is going to spend years in jail for this
>known travesty of justice in any civilized country?  
> 
>>    Did you notice that even though people here jump on most everything you
>>    say, no one jumped on that particular point?  So why do you contradict
>>    it now?
> 
>	I was waiting for someone like you to admit the Israeli government was
>involved in malicious prosecution of Demjanjuk.  I chose the form of
>the first post in expectation of someone, now you, to hold that the
>Government of Israel is morally culpable of persecuting an innocent
>man.  
> 
>	It is appreciated that you have pointed out there is no justice in
>Israel.  

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: 
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    He is an anti-semite too.  To wit:

>There's no business like Shoah Business
>Like no business I know.
>Everything about it is appealing,
>Everything that traffic will allow.
>No where can you get that happy feeling
>Then when your stealing
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 10:20:35 PDT 1996
Article: 62607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 4 Sep 1996 21:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
> 
># Is there corresponding evidence that Demjanjuk was guilty?
> 
>He was trained in Travniki and stationed in Sobibor. His photo
>was picked by a few survivors and an SS-man as that of "Ivan".
> 
>Either he's indeed Ivan, or he sure looks like him. 

    But there is, what?  Seven inches difference in height?  And the photos
    were picked out 50 years after the fact.  And there is some evidence he
    was at another camp?

    I am not asserting that Demjanjuk was not Ivan, I am merely asserting
    that there is some basis for reasonable doubt.  And this separates
    Demjanjuk for OJ Simpson.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 10:20:36 PDT 1996
Article: 62615 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: 4 Sep 1996 21:21 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199621212230@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net>  <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <322da0e5.11272202@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <322da0e5.11272202@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>    No, seriously, "we" would be all of the people loosely involved with
>>    Nizkor (though I don't know why I am answering you seriously now given
>>    my nothing else I have said in this thread is anything more than a
>>    troll.)
> 
> 	"Loosely" involved? A little distancing? 
> 
>	How quickly this fool bumbles, stumbles and fumbles.
> 
>	A little mouse. 

    Bumbles. stumbles, and funbles?  You sure are getting desperate is all
    you can do is pick up on the word "loosely."

    But it does merit a serious comment.  I intentionally went back and
    added the word "loosely" to my post above after I wrote it.  I added
    the word "loosely" because I am not comfortable including myself in the
    same company as the "Nizkor Regulars".  Yes, I am distancing myself,
    but no I am not ashamed or unadmiring of anything they are doing.  I am
    distancing myself because I feel awkward considering myself in the same
    group as them.

    Ken McVay, Jamie McCarthy, and Harry Mazal (among a few others) put
    extraordinary time and energy into the organization and systems
    management of Nizkor.  Mike Stein, Jamie McCarthy, Mark Van Alstine,
    and Danny Keren (among others) have generated what I consider to be
    excellent research to counter Holocaust deniers.

    Me?  I just write a few lame jokes and make lots of sarcastic comments
    in alt.revisionism.

    So, when when I imply I am "loosely" involved it is out of no sense of
    shame, only out of a sense of admiration.

    I hope this satisfies you, zeyde.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 10:20:36 PDT 1996
Article: 62623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: 4 Sep 1996 21:25 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4SEP199621255980@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322b1602.11258361@news.pacificnet.net> <322b1ffc.13813088@news.pacificnet.net> <2SEP199613483113@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322da485.12199611@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>> 
>>>"Dr." Mittleman:
>>>>>    It is _Dr._ Mittleman, zeyde.
>>> 
>>>Giwer:
>>>>	Another PhD?  Golly we are being inundated by the clowns.  
>>>>	
>>>>	Back when I asked after Keren's degree year he refused to post it as I
>>>>said that I would drop the quarter to verify it.  Since he has shown
>>>>complete ignorance of spreadsheets, I will no longer bother to drop
>>>>the quarter.
>>>>
>>>>	But the offer is open to you.  Full name, degree field, granting
>>>>institution and year.  I'll drop the quarter on you.  
>>> 
>>>	I'd be interested in knowing myself, Mr., Dr. Mittleman.
>>
>>    That would be "Herr Dr. Mittleman" to you, zeyde.
> 
>	Your just an ingratiating fool, trying to humor your way out of
>your previous foolishness. A hopeless self perpetuating situation.

    That would be "you're" oh illiterate caller of fools.

    First, I said "Herr Dr." as a pun on your "Mr., Dr."
    You, obviously, didn't get the pun.  Funny, that we "holohuggers", as
    Giwer calls us, seem to know more German culture than you do.

    Second, just what previous foolishness are you insinuating I am
    avoiding?  I surely don't want to avoid or evade any serious question. 
    Please frame it directly and I will answer in directly.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 20:04:36 PDT 1996
Article: 62764 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: 5 Sep 1996 17:40 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199617404717@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>> 
>> >_Known_ haberdashers.
>> 
>>         Show it.

    Look down, Tommy.  You wearin' any clothes?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)

    PS: He ain't gonna get this one either...


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 22:20:41 PDT 1996
Article: 62772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cast thy troll upon the usenets... morons are biting
Date: 5 Sep 1996 17:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199617444845@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <3SEP199620370455@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322d7d1a.2108680@news.pacificnet.net> 
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In article , jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes...
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
>> The official ZOGtographer was here last night. He left the
>> damning photographs, Fatbroad. Of course, I've had to use _both_
>> scanners to get it all on disk, but then you knew that.
>> 
>> It's all there - the yacht, the plank, the sharks, the FBTS.
>> Get used to it.
> 
>I must point out that photographs are easily forged, especially once
>they're brought into the digital domain with, as you admit, a scanner.

    Look Jamie, you make too big of a fuss and you are going to find your
    self IN a t-shirt IN that picture.  Capice?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)

    Note to Tommy: this is an inside joke and there isn't any expectation
    that you understand it.  This time.


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 22:20:42 PDT 1996
Article: 62773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 5 Sep 1996 17:51 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199617510463@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <322C9C17.22AA@rio.com> <50mvh1$avv@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <50mvh1$avv@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: On 4 Sep 1996 19:46:27 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>: anderson) wrote:
> 
>: >This is in addition to the fact that Demjanjuk's defense was based
>: >on his not being Ivan because he was actually a totally different
>: >SS guard at another death camp.
>: 
>: 	Which makes everyone ever involved with the Mossad murderers.  
> 
>Wow!  There must be a logical link in there somewhere, but I can't
>find it...

    Actually, I got the link.  He is saying that implying Demjanjuk to be a
    murderer simply because he was an SS guard is analogous to saying the
    someone is a murderer simply because he is with the Mossad.

    There is some validity to this analogy.  I don't think we know enough
    about Demjanjuk to conclude he was guilty of much of anything.  (And, I
    don't think we know he was an "SS" guard, but I am not sure of the "SS"
    part.)

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 22:20:43 PDT 1996
Article: 62775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: 5 Sep 1996 17:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199617280141@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <841759139snz@drmac.demon.co.uk> <322c52fb.11071821@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <322edbc1.460161@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <322edbc1.460161@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>	In the press, N.Y. and L.A. Times, there appeared 45 columns
>>egging the country on to war. Of the 45, 42 were Jewish writers. Since
>>then many goyims who used to write for Israel have backed off. Now it
>>is almost only the Jews, all by their lonesome. 

    Did you come up with 42 Jewish writers by checking out the columns
    yourself, or did you read a synopsis written by someone else?

    If the former, could you show us your work by listing the 42 Jewish
    columnists and telling us how you know they are Jewish?  If the latter,
    could you tell us the article or essay you read which presented this
    information?

    I am willing to accept that there is a chance you are on to something
    here, but I want to see it verified.  Otherwise, this is just hollow
    anti-semitic chatter.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 23:11:29 PDT 1996
Article: 62789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: 5 Sep 1996 17:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199617223553@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <3SEP199620370455@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322d7d1a.2108680@news.pacificnet.net> <322ef396.6561395@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <322ef396.6561395@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>Laura Finsten  wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>>    So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go 
>>>>    fishing?  
>>
>>
>>
>>>	No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
>>>right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
>>>come out and say it, "Like a 'man'".
>>
>>
>>I can't take it anymore.  I'm going to let the cat out of the bag.
>>You asked what trolling is, Mr. Moran.  Mr. Mittleman is attempting
>>to explain trolling to you by doing it.  And clearly his effort,
>>transparent as it is to every reader but you, it seems, has been
>>effective as a troll, but ineffective as an illustration to you
>>of a troll.  Do you understand now?
>>
>	Laura, can I add your name to the list here?

    Tommy, your question above merits a direct answer.  I was going to do
    so, but I was going to say exactly what Laura has said above.  I have
    nothing to add to that except: this thread began when you asked what
    trolling is.  There have been several discussions of - and definitions
    of - trolling in a.r over the past year.  I vaguely recall that you
    have even previously asked the question and it has previously been
    answered.  Go look up those historical discussionss - or go look up
    trolling on a newbie FAQ - if you still don't get it.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Sep  5 23:11:30 PDT 1996
Article: 62792 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: 5 Sep 1996 17:38 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199617384400@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <841759139snz@drmac.demon.co.uk> <322c52fb.11071821@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <322ef4d0.6874907@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:273718 alt.conspiracy:85504 alt.revisionism:62792 alt.society.conservatism:51454 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:371127 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28562 alt.politics.perot:54713

In article <322ef4d0.6874907@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>brucew@phoenix.net (Bruce Wedding) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>	One way to get a grasp of where this "war" stands in the history
>>>of U.S. wars, is that you never have, nor will you ever see a
>>>Hollywood war movie about it, even from Hollywood.
>>
>>There already is a movie about it tom.  I can't recall the name, but
>>it is the one starring Meg Ryan.
> 
>Really? If you recall the name, let me know. Thanks

    I think it is called _Courage Under Fire_.  It stars Meg Ryan and
    Denzel Washington.  It came out in July 1996 and is still showing in
    Tucson.  It got fairly good reviews and did reasonably well at the box
    office (about half as well as Schindler's List) so far.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Sep  6 07:23:34 PDT 1996
Article: 62883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: 5 Sep 1996 06:34 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199606345200@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <50j470$em6@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <50mf7s$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50mf7s$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 4 Sep 1996 05:31:12 GMT, rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck) wrote:
> 
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>>[blah blah blah]
> 
>>: 	DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT
>>: for Ken McVay, Director of the anti-hate Website, Nizkor, The
>>: Holocaust Educational Resource, endorsed by the U.S. Holocaust Museum,
>>: The Simon Wiesenthal Center and many other Institutions and Websites.
>>: --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>>Sure, sign me up. I mean, I've never met Ken McVay, but I like his 
>>website. (He's obviously a good troll^H^H^H^H^H fisherman too, but living 
>>in Nanaimo, he should be!)
> 
>	It is great to read so many people support criminal copyright
>violation and conspiract to same.  
> 
>	Even Edeiken knows that the legislative history of "educational
>purposes" does not support Nizkor but he publically posts a legal
>opinion that such copyright violation is within the law.  
> 
>	It is just one more thing to report the the Penn SC.  

    What?  You are making a threat to report him for offering a legal
    opinion that you deem to be wrong?

    You really went downhill since Grynspan started in on you.  Nothing you
    post anymore ever makes any sense (not that you were Shakespeare
    before).  Your posts seem to be divided between gibberish and idle
    threats (this being an example of that latter).  The rest of us learned
    not to be afraid of such things when the third grade bully was put in
    his place.  You, somehow, never got that lesson, huh?

    Well, keep posting.  Grynspan's responses tearing you to shreads make
    amusing reading...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Sep  6 21:32:50 PDT 1996
Article: 63039 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Do you really want to answer that Matt Giwer troll?
Date: 6 Sep 1996 07:06 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6SEP199607061097@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    Has Matt Giwer posted something that has you tweaked?  Are you
    thinking of spending time and energy responding to his troll?

    Then consider what he said in Message-ID
    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    But, in particular, reread the quote from him above and ask yourself,
    "do I really think it good use of my time to argue with this guy, or
    should I just ignore his outrageous statements?"  If you feel you must
    respond so that the novice reader is not fooled by him, consider
    clipping this post and using it as your reply.  


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep  7 09:23:16 PDT 1996
Article: 63116 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Master of Liars? GIWER? 
Date: 6 Sep 1996 23:18 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 56
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6SEP199623180308@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <50cf01$mu6@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50ghd9$e1n@s <50konm$38n2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <50m7ju$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50m7ju$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

>	Whois Ken McVay?

    Ken McVay is the Director of the Nizkor Project, which fights
    anti-semitism and Holocaust denial on the web.

>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
>   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>   CA
>   1-604-382-0615

    As Giwer has been so kind to repeatedly post this post office box and
    advertise for contributions to the Nizkor Project, I would like to
    point out that while this is not the best address to use, you can send
    contributions to the Nizkor Project at this address.  They will be
    properly received and placed to good use.   You will receive a Canadian
    Tax receipt for your donation (which will work just fine in Canada no
    matter what Matt Giwer insists).  If you desire a prompt response and a
    current copy of the Nizkor Newsletter, you might opt to use the correct
    Nizkor address which is:

          Congregation Emmanu-El / Nizkor Project
          1461 Blanshard St.
          Victoria, BC
          V8W 2J3

    If you wish to make an American contribution for an American tax
    receipt, please write your contribution to:

        "SAN ANTONIO AREA FOUNDATION - Nizkor Fund"

    and mail to:

        San Antonio Area Foundation
        Nizkor Fund
        P.O. Box 120366
        San Antonio, TX 78212-9566

    Each time you see Giwer write this silly troll in place of a real
    answer to questions put to him, just remember he is a poster boy for
    why Nizkor exists.  And if you would like confirmation of this
    assertion in Matt Giwer's own words, please take a look at any of the
    following sites:

    http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
    http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
    http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
    http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
    http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
    http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
    http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar-wager.html

    Thank you Matt for all you are doing towards keeping those
    contributions rolling in.  We couldn't do it without you.


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep  7 09:23:17 PDT 1996
Article: 63118 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: sorry test
Date: 6 Sep 1996 23:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 4
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6SEP199623321178@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <01bb9c47$6c4b35e0$b7544bce@wkreider.compusmart.ab.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

 writes...
>test

    No.  Actually it was pretty good, as tests go...


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep  7 09:23:18 PDT 1996
Article: 63120 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: 5 Sep 1996 22:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 60
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199622595899@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
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In article , Marty Kelley  writes...
>On 3 Sep 1996, Danny Mittleman wrote:
> 
>>     I have had a couple of students over the years choose to write their
>>     letters about abortion.  Some of the students have taken a position on
>>     abortion directly counter to my own.
>> 
>>     I have graded them on the logic and structure of their argument.  I
>>     have found that I am able to do this even if I don't agree with their
>>     premises.  I don't see why any good instructor would have a problem
>>     with this.
> 
>A good point; I have no problem responding fairly to student writing which
>advances political and moral beliefs that are contrary to my own, and if I
>have any doubts about my fairness, I often ask a colleague to go over the
>student paper and my comments.  The difficulty that Mr. Moran brings up,
>of course, is somewhat thornier, in that a student paper denying the
>Holocaust would _a priori_ represent a violation of the terms of the
>assignment that I use for documented arguments and other research papers:
>that the student support her/his views with valid, academically sound
>research. (the closest I've come to this was an essay on demonic
>possession, which unquestioningly cited a secondhand reference to medieval
>"tests" for possession, as if those were reliable proof of demons!)
> 
>>     To relate this with denier writing in alt.revisionism: there is a wide
>>     disparity in quality among denier writers.  Milt Kleim, for example,
>>     can string together a decent argument.  Greg Raven is dishonest, but
>>     his logic structure is usually valid.  Ross Vicksell was an excellent
>>     writer and debater.  Other deniers range from moderately literate to
>>     barely able to string together multiple thoughts.  I can judge all this
>>     knowing full well the content of denier posts is garbage. 
> 
>Agreed--Kleim was a better writer than Mr. Moran.  I'd have given his
>"American Democracy" paper from a couple years back about a B-minus.  But
>how would you grade a "revisionist" argument in a composition class,
>Danny?  Or a racist's argument that purported to "prove" the inferiority
>of blacks, using sources from the National Alliance? (A situation that
>happened to a black composition teacher at the U of A a few years ago,
>BTW)

    In a 100 level class I would look at how the student used his sources
    and possibly how broad-based his sources were.  But I would not expect
    the student to check out his sources sources.  So, for example, if a
    student wrote a paper arguing the denier position and constructed a
    logical argument properly building from the work of Butz, Faurisson,
    Irving, etc. but failed to realize that these sources often
    misinterpreted or misrepresented the primary data, I would not hold
    that against the student.  I would expect, however, the student address
    the work of non-denier historians.

    But, if I were teaching a graduate level 20th century European history
    class, I would hold my students to understanding the quality of
    research of their sources.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep  7 09:23:19 PDT 1996
Article: 63127 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: for those who have any turther questions
Date: 6 Sep 1996 22:53 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6SEP199622534830@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50m5pe$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50m5pe$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	If anyone is curious about gryn.org ... 

    No, no one is.

    Has Matt Giwer posted something that has you tweaked?  Are you
    thinking of spending time and energy responding to his troll?

    Then consider what he said in Message-ID
    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    But, in particular, reread the quote from him above and ask yourself,
    "do I really think it good use of my time to argue with this guy, or
    should I just ignore his outrageous statements?"  If you feel you must
    respond so that the novice reader is not fooled by him, consider
    clipping this post and using it as your reply. 



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep  7 09:23:20 PDT 1996
Article: 63148 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: 6 Sep 1996 22:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 56
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6SEP199622572180@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50m5va$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50m5va$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 4 Sep 1996 07:01 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    We have below here a summary of the Matt Giwer philosphy of the world. 
>>    To sum:  "Anyone who doesn't see the world exactly as Matt Giwer sees it
>>    is an idiot."  This philosophy works very well as all questions are
>>    answered by it.  And as a further bonus, since no one sees the world
>>    exactly as Matt Giwer sees it, everone is an idiot.  Except for Matt
>>    Giwer.  
> 
>	Another holohugger defending belief in non-existent gods.  

    Nope, its an atheistic remark.  It doesn't advocate a philosophy, it
    merely argues that the Giwer is God religion is illogical.

    -----

    Has Matt Giwer posted something that has you tweaked?  Are you
    thinking of spending time and energy responding to his troll?

    Then consider what he said in Message-ID
    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    But, in particular, reread the quote from him above and ask yourself,
    "do I really think it good use of my time to argue with this guy, or
    should I just ignore his outrageous statements?"  If you feel you must
    respond so that the novice reader is not fooled by him, consider
    clipping this post and using it as your reply. 


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep  7 09:23:20 PDT 1996
Article: 63149 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Incredible Sequence
Date: 6 Sep 1996 23:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 78
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6SEP199623243142@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3230a972.4568661@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <3230a972.4568661@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>9/3/96, under "Show your support - sign on here"
> 
>	 "Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg
>complex, so we let him call himself 'the Director'".
> 
>                         daniel david mittleman
> 
>Moran: 9/4
>	"We"?  Who is "we"?
> 
> 
>9/4
>	The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG for short).  I know we
>exist, I even have the t-shirt to prove it!
> 
>    No, seriously, "we" would be all of the people loosely involved
>with Nizkor (though I don't know why I am answering you seriously now
>given my nothing else I have said in this thread is anything more than
>a troll.)
>                         daniel david mittleman  
> 
> 
> 
>9/4, Moran:
>	"Loosely" involved? A little distancing? 
> 
>	How quickly this fool bumbles, stumbles and fumbles.
> 
>	A little mouse. 
> 
> 
> 
>9/4
>	Bumbles. stumbles, and funbles?  You sure are getting desperate
>is all you can do is pick up on the word "loosely."
> 
>    But it does merit a serious comment.  I intentionally went back
>and added the word "loosely" to my post above after I wrote it.  I
>added the word "loosely" because I am not comfortable including myself
>in the same company as the "Nizkor Regulars".  Yes, I am distancing
>myself, but no I am not ashamed or unadmiring of anything they are
>doing.  I am distancing myself because I feel awkward considering
>myself in the same group as them.
> 
>    Ken McVay, Jamie McCarthy, and Harry Mazal (among a few others)
>put extraordinary time and energy into the organization and systems
>management of Nizkor.  Mike Stein, Jamie McCarthy, Mark Van Alstine,
>and Danny Keren (among others) have generated what I consider to be
>excellent research to counter Holocaust deniers.
> 
>    Me?  I just write a few lame jokes and make lots of sarcastic
>comments in alt.revisionism.
> 
>    So, when when I imply I am "loosely" involved it is out of no
>sense of shame, only out of a sense of admiration.
> 
>    I hope this satisfies you, zeyde.
> 
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>             ------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>	When Moran tells Mr.Mittleman to dance, he dances. But then he
>trips all over himself.

    It's "Dr." Mittleman to you, zeyde.

    I am quite comfortable with everything I said above, zeyde (short of a
    couple of typos.)  I stand by my statements -- even my humor.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep  7 09:23:21 PDT 1996
Article: 63150 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L E M M I N G S
Date: 6 Sep 1996 23:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 91
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6SEP199623292313@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3230aa0e.4724209@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    Is it possible, given this long boring post of Tommy's (captured
    below), that he is trolling us?

    Nah...

In article <3230aa0e.4724209@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	Moran had posted "SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here". This is the
>one where Moran made it easy for those showing support for Nizkor
>"Director" Ken McVay's statement about Moran's sister being a
>"hooker".
> 
>	One of the first to jump in was Mr.Mittleman, who seemed to be
>asking for a little more clarification.
> 
>    "So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go wink> go fishing?  "
> 
>                         daniel david mittleman 
> 
> 
>	Moran came back and ask Mr. Mittleman,
> 
>	"No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
>right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
>come out and say it, 'Like a man'".
> 
>	So far Mr.Mittleman has not been able to muster up any "man" but
>a number of his cohorts, in thinking, jumped in to make comment, with
>the first being from a Mr.Anderson.
>	Evidently he happened to be familiar with the "nudge nudge wink
>wink" phrase that Mr.Mittleman used,
> 
>	"Add Monty Python to the staggeringly long list of things about
>which Moran knows nothing."
> 
>Bill
> 
> 
>	Moran found it amusing that Mr.Anderson should find knowing Monty
>Pytnon phrases as, well ...;
> 
>	"Evidently you think not knowing Monty Python is a sign of
>negative intelligence. 
>	Your posts, this being one of them, shows what happens when
>someone thinks knowing Monty Python is fitting criteria for suitable
>intelligence."
> 
> 
>	Soon enough a number of people jumped in to support Mr.Anderson's
>indication that knowing Monty Python phrases are fitting criteria for
>suitable intelligence.
> 
>Richard Graves, ardent Holocaust defender seemed to disagree with
>Moran's notion.
> 
>	"Are you suggesting that it isn't?"
> 
>-rich
> 
> 
>	Then we had another Holocaust supporter's opinion,
> 
>"This boy is truly sad. Tell you what, Moran, go ask your friend
>Giwer.  He likes Python.  He'll explain it to you."
> 
>Keith Morrison 
>	
> 
>	It, seeming that maybe Mr.Morrison knew what all the Monty Python
>phrase was about, Moran ask Mr.Morrison,
> 
>	"Why don't you just tell me."
> 
>	Mr.Morrison replied,
> 
>	"Explaining it to someone who can't catch on...yet...would be
>like trying to explain relativity to a brick wall."
> 
> 
>	So, here we have this one fool coming out and claiming that
>knowing some phrase from Monty Python is fitting criteria for quality
>intelligence and a bunch of others jump in to express their support
>for the criteria, one even equating Monty Python phrases with the
>Theory of Relativity.
> 
>	Ah yes, when one Holocaust lemming goes over the cliff, as usual,
>others follow.

    Yo, fellow lemmings:  when we hit bottom I bet we find good fishing! 
    Who knows, maybe even Tommy's sister will be there to greet us!


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep  7 11:51:22 PDT 1996
Article: 63190 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: 7 Sep 1996 06:41 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7SEP199606411567@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <322ef64b.7254109@news.pacificnet.net>  <32305abd.1656043@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <32305abd.1656043@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>># Three more names requesting to be put on the list of
>># those endorsing McVay's statement about Moran's sister.
>>
>>What is all this about, Tommy?

>Why don't you read the lead article to find out? Then sign on.

    The funny part, zeyde, is that you don't yet seem to realize what all
    this is about.  The lead article, in case you forgot, was the one where
    you asked what trolling is.

>Don't miss this chance to support your allies in the fight against
>Holocaust doubters and haters.

    No, you don't get it yet.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  8 08:01:19 PDT 1996
Article: 63420 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960907: Update on David Irving
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7SEP199623231672@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2817 alt.revisionism:63420

>David Irving speaking dates in the United States, September 1996
> 
>September 7     Los Angeles     IHR     (714) 631-1490
>September 9     Sacramento      -- pending --   -- TBA --
>September 10    San Francisco   Aftab   (510) 845-9200
>September 11    Tulsa   Larry   (817) 790-7363
>September 12    Atlanta Lawrence        (404) 814-9279
>September 13    Washington, DC  Andrew  (202) 986-6628
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>September 26    Cleveland       Eric    (216) 888-4598
>September 27-29 Pittsburgh      MAX Show Expomart

    Friday the 13th in DC.  I might be able to make it.  Mike (Stein), are
    you interested in going with me?  Or do you have to go to shule that
    night?

    Anyone else in the DC area interested in going?

    Danny

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  8 08:01:20 PDT 1996
Article: 63424 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "THE ZIONIST PAGE"
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7SEP199623361803@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <32316fcf.230849@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <32316fcf.230849@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	           Webcrawler > The Zionist Page
> 
>  A Star of David on one side, and an out line of Israel on the other.
> 
>	"Welcome to the Zionist page.
>	While this site is still under construction, we invite you to
>explore other sites that may be of interest.
>	Leading the list is the Simon Wiesenthal Center ..."

    Thank you for the pointer, zeyde.  I am sure Ken will add a link to it
    from the Nizkor site.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  8 08:01:21 PDT 1996
Article: 63425 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IGNORE THAT ASSHOLE DAVE HARMAN....READ THE WEB PAGE!!!!
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7SEP199623444478@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50t7lb$avs@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50t7lb$avs@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>www.babylonians.com

    Cute.

    Marduk, I presume? 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  8 08:01:21 PDT 1996
Article: 63426 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - the morans are still biting!
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:31 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7SEP199623311928@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net>  <32305aba.1653572@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) writes...
>In article <50sj4h$mkf@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
>> [a moron wrote]
>> 
>> "Aren't you going to sign on for endorsing McVay's statement 
>> about Moran's sister?"
>> 
>> >My name is already on the list, you twit. Why do you STILL refer to
>> >yourself in the third person ?
>> 
>> Would you admit to being her brother?
> 
>Good point, although I believe that the sister has more to worry about
>than the brother. Or was it the cat ?

    I understand they "go fishing" together, if you know what I mean...

    

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  8 08:01:22 PDT 1996
Article: 63471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!uct.ac.za!und.ac.za!peacenjoy.mikom.csir.co.za!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Incredible Sequence
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:41 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7SEP199623410141@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3230a972.4568661@news.pacificnet.net> <6SEP199623243142@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <323175b2.1737497@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323175b2.1737497@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>
>>    I am quite comfortable with everything I said above, zeyde (short of a
>>    couple of typos.)  I stand by my statements -- even my humor.
> 
>	Is this one of the things you said above?
> 
>     "Me?  I just write a few lame jokes and make lots of sarcastic
>comments in alt.revisionism."
> 
>	I take note of the word "lame".

    Yeah, my jokes ARE pretty bad sometimes, aren't they?  But I will hold
    them up against Gord McFee's anytime!

    [see Tommy, sometimes we even troll each other!]  :/

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  8 08:01:23 PDT 1996
Article: 63487 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: 5 Sep 1996 06:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5SEP199606283619@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net>  <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <50meg5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <50meg5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 4 Sep 1996 07:30 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>In article <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>	You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he
>>>>>is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster'
>>>>>of a website and a "director"?
>>>>
>>>>    Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg complex, so
>>>>    we let him call himself "the Director."
>>> 
>>>	"We"?  Who is "we"?
> 
>>    The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG for short).  I know we exist, I
>>    even have the t-shirt to prove it!
> 
>>    No, seriously, "we" would be all of the people loosely involved with
>>    Nizkor (though I don't know why I am answering you seriously now given
>>    my nothing else I have said in this thread is anything more than a
>>    troll.)
> 
>	If those co-conspirators would identify themselves rather than begging
>off from any claim of active participation then they can be named in
>the lawsuit against Nizkor.  
> 
>	They vanish the instant the lawsuit is mentioned.  

    You are hallucinating again.  I was on the Nizkor web site the other
    day and the list of contributers to Nizkor has grown since the previous
    time I looked.  The only thing vanishing is the reality of your lawsuit
    - which we all know you will never file as it gives us the right to
    depose you (which would be more fun that I can even imagine!) and the
    cost of you filing a suit would be prohibitive.

    But dream (or hallucinate) on, oh sottish one...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  8 22:15:20 PDT 1996
Article: 63678 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Score: PBI August 30th-September 7th
Date: 8 Sep 1996 07:37 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 203
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    During the one week period noted below, there were posts from 177
    different accounts.  This seems to represent somewhere around 150
    different people as some (Ken McVay in particular) post from multiple
    accounts and there were several likely forgeries (note there is an
    mgiwer@ix.netcom.com with only two posts listed) of unknown (at least
    to me) origin.

In article <50u0uv$dc7@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) writes...
>Posts batted in, for those interested in the big picture. Mr. Giwer
>maintains his commanding lead, if you can call it that. This is strictly a
>sorted list of From: lines. No attempt has been made to authenticate the
>sender or to group together different From: lines that are really the same
>person (for example, rblackmore/jbelling, rich/rcgraves).
> 
>The top five revisionazis -- Giwer, RBlackmore/JBelling, Moran, Skippy,
>and Sodomizer -- account for fully 32% of the postings in the group.
>Morons, yes, but prolific morons.
> 
>   1610 total
>    195 mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>    104 rblackmore@juno.com
>     86 tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>     83 joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>     78 qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
>     66 gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
>     58 yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>     54 rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves)
>     51 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>     45 goat@anus.com (CHRIST SODOMIZER)
>     44 dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>     41 libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
>     31 rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi)
>     28 mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
>     25 schwartz@infinet.com
>     25 Keith Morrison 
>     24 libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
>     22 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
>     21 ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major)
>     18 abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
>     18 Laurinda Stryker 
>     17 mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
>     16 kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
>     15 olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
>     15 dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell)
>     14 scotterb@maine.maine.edu (Scott Erb)
>     13 Alexander Baron 
>     12 klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis)
>     12 Alec Grynspan 
>     11 rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck)
>     11 Brian Harmon 
>     10 mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
>     10 jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
>     10 fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis)
>     10 Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
>      9 Annie Alpert 
>      8 zenoink@ix.netcom.com(Zenoink)
>      8 joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
>      8 jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>      8 amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews)
>      8 Chuck Ferree 
>      8 "Rene v. Rentzell" 
>      7 ronkanen@cc.helsinki.fi (Osmo Ronkanen)
>      7 kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern)
>      7 hce@magmacom.com (Howard Eisenberger)
>      7 bob whitaker 
>      7 Kevin Alfred Strom 
>      6 ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
>      5 skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger Skok)
>      5 pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Philip Kasiecki)
>      5 kmcvay@nizkor.org (Ken McVay OBC)
>      5 itta@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B. James)
>      5 amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M. McLellan)
>      5 Marty Kelley 
>      5 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik)
>      4 zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost)
>      4 pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff)
>      4 nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA)
>      4 nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Nizkor)
>      4 aviary@pigeon.com (Hawkman Harold)
>      4 atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton)
>      4 Markus Egg 
>      4 Bob Whitaker 
>      4 "D. Braun" 
>      3 kmcvay@veritas.nizkor.org (Ken McVay)
>      3 karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
>      3 hydigger@aol.com (Bodhisattva)
>      3 gcf@panix.com (G*rd*n the Demon Rat)
>      3 dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>      3 bodhi@sattva.org (Bodhisattva)
>      2 unique cats 
>      2 robk@rio.com (Rob Kowalewski)
>      2 rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
>      2 nrn@tezcat.com (Norman Nithman)
>      2 nizkor@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Nizkor Canada)
>      2 ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie Farber)
>      2 mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>      2 lness@indiana.edu (Lester John Ness)
>      2 gtaylor@msn.fullfeed.com (Gregory Taylor)
>      2 drobnicki@ycvax.york.cuny.edu
>      2 brucew@phoenix.net (Bruce Wedding)
>      2 bds@ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK )
>      2 ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
>      2 arcline@phoenix.princeton.edu (Austin Cline)
>      2 alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan)
>      2 act@ipp-garching.mpg.de (zhang zhiyao)
>      2 TJNYE@MANSCI.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (Tim Nye)
>      2 Stig 
>      2 Rich Graves 
>      2 Laura Finsten 
>      2 Barry Bruyea 
>      2 "P.L." 
>      2 "Chaz Clover" 
>      1 you@somehost.somedomain (ashbyrne)
>      1 whitewil@nando.net
>      1 tweek@netcom.com (Reverend Tweek)
>      1 slking@fas.harvard.edu (Stewart King)
>      1 simpsonm@cris.com (Matthew Simpson)
>      1 shriker@concentric.net
>      1 schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
>      1 roth1@ix.netcom.com(Moritz Rothschild)
>      1 rob89103@usa.pipeline.com(Vegas Bob)
>      1 rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
>      1 reverend@iinet.net.au (peter wheeler)
>      1 qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman)
>      1 pyotr@coho.halcyon.com (pyotr filipivich)
>      1 nobody@replay.com (Los Angeles Times Copyright Terrorist)
>      1 nobody@cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald)
>      1 nmonagha@nyx10.cs.du.edu (N.O. Monaghan)
>      1 mslu@ix.netcom.com(Lucile V. Wilson)
>      1 modemac@tiac.net (Modemac)
>      1 maschine@gvn.net (Uber Geist)
>      1 marduk@netcom.ca (marduk)
>      1 marcumb@okstate.edu (Bobby D. Marcum)
>      1 map@zenon.prima.ruhr.de (Martin Paegert)
>      1 kmcvay@zeuge.nizkor.org (Ken McVay OBC)
>      1 klewis@veritas.nizkor.org (Ken Lewis)
>      1 kdare@compusmart.ab.ca (Jenocyde)
>      1 kamamer@zot.io.org (karl mamer)
>      1 kamamer@zap.io.org (karl mamer)
>      1 k5kurtz@troi.sbcc.cc.ca.us (k5kurtz)
>      1 johnsonp@crosslink.net (The Lady Trailblazer)
>      1 jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
>      1 jchance 
>      1 jboswell@enterprise.net (Boz)
>      1 jbelling@sprynet.com
>      1 hkt@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
>      1 gdy52150@prairie.lakes.com (gdy52150@prairie.lakes.com)
>      1 gary.nt@ix.netcom.com (ZB)
>      1 fatbroad@veritas.nizkor.org (Fatbroad!)
>      1 eylerjs@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>      1 easy, @money.com
>      1 dexter@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Frosch)
>      1 davids@iaccess.com.au (D.J)
>      1 d.diduck@sk.sympatico.ca (Dave Diduck)
>      1 cyclops@mail.microserve.net (DAVID BAINS)
>      1 coonec@rpi.edu (Christopher Michael Cooney)
>      1 christop@ifi.uio.no (Christopher Henrik Lund)
>      1 chall@eco.twg.com (Charles Don Hall)
>      1 bw@chicago.net (Bob Wilson)
>      1 brendat@nwlink.com (Brenda Tipton)
>      1 brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu
>      1 beebe@scd.hp.com (Mike Beebe)
>      1 bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
>      1 andygarcia@uk.pipeline.com (Andy Garcia)
>      1 alec@gryn.org@       (Alec Grynspan)
>      1 alec@gryn.org
>      1 agent13@midwest.net (Joe Littrell)
>      1 adscapes@ix.netcom.com (Turiyan gold)
>      1 adruid@netdoor.com (dannie hawkins)
>      1 acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
>      1 TsuiDB 
>      1 T1000@skynet.com (Terminator)
>      1 Someone 
>      1 Richard Rawlings 
>      1 Ourobouros
>      1 Mike Conway 
>      1 MCX 
>      1 Laura Finsten 
>      1 Ken_Lewis@basicly.portal.ca (Ken Lewis)
>      1 Ken_Lewis@basicly.portal.ca
>      1 Just me again 
>      1 John Stone <20676jrs@msu.edu>
>      1 John Konopak 
>      1 Henry Ayre 
>      1 Eggy Bhuna Massala <"eggybhuna"@purbeck.demon.co .uk>
>      1 Commandante Meow Meow Matt Bruce 
>      1 Chris Longhurst 
>      1 
>      1 <>
>      1 "art guerrilla" 
>      1 "Wes Kreider" 
>      1 "Ryan " 
>      1 "Robert L. Watson" 
>      1 "Duncan R. MacMillan" 
>      1 "Denes S. Varady" 
>      1 "Charles M. Cambria" 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep  8 22:15:21 PDT 1996
Article: 63684 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Incredible Sequence
Date: 8 Sep 1996 21:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 26
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In article <3232f1c3.4031879@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	This part is one of the dance steps where Mr.Mittleman steps on
>his own toes.
> 
>Mr.Mittleman:
>>	Bumbles. stumbles, and funbles?  You sure are getting desperate
>>is all you can do is pick up on the word "loosely."
> 
>	He mocks Moran for the picking up on his word "loosely" as
>"desperate" but then goes on to say,
> 
>>    But it does merit a serious comment. 

    Your point being...?

    Note: all of what I said made sense before you removed the context. 
    But that is typical of your responses.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  9 08:20:19 PDT 1996
Article: 63698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960906: Since Galileo's time . . .
Date: 8 Sep 1996 20:56 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8SEP199620561357@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <50spug$3rv@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <3232ed69.2917506@news.pacificnet.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2828 alt.revisionism:63698

In article <3232ed69.2917506@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>>-- 
>>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson
> 
>	Who is "they"?

    Is this man being intentionally funny, or is he really Simpson clueless
    as well as Python clueless?

    I mean...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  9 08:20:20 PDT 1996
Article: 63702 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!uct.ac.za!und.ac.za!peacenjoy.mikom.csir.co.za!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L E M M I N G S
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 50
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In article <32316f94.171585@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
> 
>>In article <3230aa0e.4724209@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>
>>>    "So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go >>wink> go fishing?  "
>>
>>>                         daniel david mittleman 
>>
>>
>>>        Moran came back and ask Mr. Mittleman,
>>
>>>        "No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
>>>right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
>>>come out and say it, 'Like a man'".
>>
>>>        So far Mr.Mittleman has not been able to muster up any "man" but
>>>a number of his cohorts, in thinking, jumped in to make comment, with
>>>the first being from a Mr.Anderson.
>>>        Evidently he happened to be familiar with the "nudge nudge wink
>>>wink" phrase that Mr.Mittleman used,
>>
>>Most people I know are.   And while I'm not surprised by the breadth and depth 
>>and height of your lack of knowledge, you miss the point.
>>
>>Again.
>>
>>Try it this way:  
>>
>>What's amusing is that you didn't realize that you 
>>were having your leg pulled, and insisted on flaunting your credulity and 
>>ignorance.
>>
>>As you continue to do.  
> 
>	When I pull someone's leg, I make sure it's not my own. It's not
>me who is plugging it as a component of an IQ test. 

    Nor me either.  I'm just a trollin'

    By the way, howz your sister?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  9 08:20:21 PDT 1996
Article: 63703 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can you question this answer?
Date: 8 Sep 1996 21:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
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In article <32330b75.10609038@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	Since this answer has not been properly questioned and there
>seems to be no more attempts at trying to question it, I am here and
>now giving the question.	
> 
>>Answer:
>>	Germany, France, England, Russia, Canada, United States and the
>>Christians, to name a few.
>>
>>Question:
> 
>	Who are some of those claimed to be responsible for, and/or,
>complicit in the Holocaust?

    OK.  So?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  9 08:20:22 PDT 1996
Article: 63708 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: 8 Sep 1996 20:49 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 90
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References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50le5n$d5k@lex.zippo.com> <50ppn4$a8h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50r18l$c78@lex.zippo.com> <50to9h$n8e@lex.zippo.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:42494 alt.revisionism:63708

In article <50to9h$n8e@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros writes...
> 
>Hopefully what follows will show you what I have been meaning.
> 
>1.  W.W.II happened between the years 1939 & 1945.  1945-1939=6.

    Agreed.  Although persecution of the Jews by the Nazis began in 1933
    (which is not to say that Jews were put into extermination camps in
    1933).

>2. McVay, has stated many a time that holocaust numbers were "nearly"
>12 million.  I did not assume that when I stated 12 million without using
>such words as "approximately" that it cause massive controversy.  Or isn't
>this a point?

    Different historians and demographers have arrived at different
    estimates for the number killed in the Holocaust.  Most estimates range
    between 10 and 12 million.  The reason there are different estimates
    (among historians and demographers who have done significant primary
    research on the matter) is:  [a] different studies have used different
    methods for estimating deaths - leaving them open to different sources
    of error; and [b] different historians and demographers have defined
    the boundaries of the Holocaust differently - some have included deaths
    that others have deemed casaulties of war.

    I don't see it a big deal whether you said "approximately 12 million"
    or "12 million" although "approximately 12 million" is a more correct
    statement.

>3. Simon Wiesanthal has stated that no concentration camps were on
>German soil.  Therefore, unless Germany was buying land in Poland and so
>forth before W.W.II they couldn't have made concentration camps before no
>1939.  Is that a reasonable conclusion?

    I believe Wiesanthal said "no extermination camps".  There is a
    significant difference.  While there were about 10,000 concentration
    camps (taking many forms) and many of those camps were in Germany
    proper, there were only six extermination camps.  None of those camps
    was in Germany proper - they were located in the East, more or all of
    them in Poland.  (Note: there was an extended discussion about the
    number 10,000 for all of the concentration camps earlier this year in
    a.r.  That figure comes from Goldhagen's book and in it he cites his
    sources.)

    None of the six extermination camps was used for extermination prior to
    1939.  I don't know whether any of those camps existed as internment
    camps prior to 1939 (someone else here will surely know.)

>4. Camps such as the Auchwitz complex hold (according to dogma) are where
>most of the killing occurred, or is this wrong?  Assuming that I am correct
>in stating that most of the killings occurred at the concentration camps,
>the figure of 12 million would still hold, though admittedly I should be
>using "nearly" since you are so concerned about it.

    Using "very" round numbers... about 6 million of the 12 million were
    killed in the extermination camps.  Estimates for Aushwitz range from
    about 900,000 to about 1.5 million (most historians now estimate
    somewhere in the range of 1 million.)  Citations for these estimates
    are available, should you be interested.

>5. If all the points are so far correct, then I can make this conclusion:
>Within 6 years, nearly 12 million people were killed in concentration 
>camps.   

    No, within 6 years, about 6,000,000 were killed in extermination camps. 
    Most of the rest were killed in raids on villages and communities. 
    Most, but not all, of the latter 6 million were never interned in
    camps.

>Now, if all the above is correct, I would like to see how it is feasible
>for Germany, at war against the allies, to mobilise nearly 12 million
>people into concentration camps.  

    They didn't.  They mobilized about 6 million into camps.  They used an
    existing rail system and built additional spurs in order to support the
    effort.  There are many books which account for this process in detail. 
    Would you like a reading list?

>If most of killings didn't occur in concentration camps, then where did 
>they occur?

    They occured in raids on towns and villages.  (Note, "most" in the
    sentence above confuses matters as the split was about 50/50.)

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  9 08:20:23 PDT 1996
Article: 63711 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!blanket.mitre.org!news.tufts.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: 8 Sep 1996 21:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8SEP199621571185@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50p78j$b9s@news.enter.net> <5103n2$rrq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    Zeyde!  I was perusing the Nizkor site tonight and found a fascinating
    URL.  Why don't you point your rigii to:

      http://www1.us.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/whats-trolling.html

    and take a look.

    It is a synopsis of your May 30, 1996 post where you asked:

         "I see a lot of dubbing of 'troller' or 'trolling' out here.
         What does that mean?"

    It turns out that Ken McVay trolled you in response to that question. 
    It turns out that you didn't understand you were trolled.  It turns out
    that this situation led us into a June conversation about just what is
    trolling.  It is all captured there on Nizkor.  Asked and answered.

    So, it is even more surprising that when you repeated your question in
    August and Ken trolled you by making remarks about your sister (and I
    added some remarks about her going fishing) that you fell hook, line,
    and sinker into deja vu' all over again!

    Just shows, you can't teach old zeydes new tricks, eh?

    And who says you can't get good entertainment out here on the
    internet...?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  9 08:20:24 PDT 1996
Article: 63722 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews Run Everything
Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7SEP199623283420@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <841070068snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <5035g7$slf@news.enter.net>  <50nhab$du1@lendl.cc.emory.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes...
>In <50nhab$du1@lendl.cc.emory.edu> libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
> 
>! : ! 	3.  That the charge that the Federal Reserve is owned by eight banks 
>! : ! is a "fantasy."
>! : 
>! : The eight Jewish run banks are the Federal Monetary system, a
>! : system that has been in place since the predecession of World
>! : War I.
>! 
>! No, they don't.  All of these claims are easily refuted by referring to the
>! act that set up the bank--The Federal Reserve Act of 1913--or to the rules
>! an regulations of the Fed.  These are available at any Government Documents
>! Depository library.  There's also a lot of info on the net.  A good place
>! to start is:
>! 
>! http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/pf/pf.htm
>! 
>! It's amazing that you folks continue to post this easily-refuted crap,
>! and refuse to post a scintilla of evidence, and still expect to be taken
>! seriously.
> 
>Semantics.  The Federal Reserve System is one bank with twelve branches
>regardless of what they decide to call themselves.

    [in my best Mickey Mouse Club voice...]

    "Why?  BECAUSE I SAID SO...!"

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep  9 08:20:25 PDT 1996
Article: 63730 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let us not overlook ...
Date: 8 Sep 1996 21:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8SEP199621030488@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323305be.9146550@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <323305be.9146550@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	Let us not overlook the fact that whenever Ken McVay, "Director"
>of the anti-hate, pro-Holocaust website Nizkor, posts anything out
>here, that he is representing all those that support or link his
>website, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Anti-Defamation
>League - generally, the interests of the whole world Jewish community.

    Zeyde, I don't think you quite have down the concept of links yet.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Sep 13 12:38:09 PDT 1996
Article: 65101 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 13 Sep 1996 08:49 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199608495237@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51aqqd$a2g@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca writes...
>Why not republish the addresses and phone numbers for all connections of 
>OyVey, so that free-minded individuals can let HIM know what they think 
>of this holohoaxer???
> 
>I am sure that responsible readers who keep data about this maggot, will 
>gladly call OyVey to discuss his false philosophies.Some may even call 
>outside normal business hours,when he will not be so busy.

    So, let me get this right Mr. Grossvenom...  You are posting, using an
    alias, that it would be a good idea to find Mr. McVay's phone number
    and harrass him with phone calls at all hours of the night?  Is that
    what you are implying, Mr. Grossvenom?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Sep 13 22:44:54 PDT 1996
Article: 65285 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:02 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622024690@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322eef53.5469925@news.pacificnet.net> <32396345.171585@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>Let's hear it, Tommy--what would it take to convince you that the 
>Holocaust actually took place, just as every historian in the world
>believes it did?  Spell it out for us.

    Funny, zeyde, you repost this fascinating Bill Anderson question, but
    you fail to take a stab at answering it.  Don't you have any research
    standards, zeyde?  What, is your tongue tied when your handlers haven't
    told you how to respond?

    Go ahead...  you reposted Bill's very reasonable question.  Now answer
    it for us.

    Or better yet, keep reposting it as a reminder to everyone that you
    have no answer to it, silly old man...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:28:54 PDT 1996
Article: 65290 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde.nde.swri.edu!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the usual suspects
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:14 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622143691@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <519mc2$785@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <519tui$f6p@news.enter.net> <51bpn7$kr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <51bpn7$kr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

>	BTW:  Was it you or Nizkor (with whom you coordinated the phone calls
>to make them sound more important) who made the claim that there was a
>private investigation of my imagined "threats"?  Why did you not claim
>there was an FBI investigation and that you had talked to an FBI agent
>as you have done in public here?  
> 
>	Just how gullible do you think people are?  
> 
>	Do you realize how many stories of the antics of you holohuggers I can
>get mailed to NETCOM just for the asking?  
> 
>	That is a good idea.  I will ask that people send stories of the past
>antics of the holohuggers on this conference regarding getting people
>kicked of the internet and the like.  I have already provided them
>with my last ISP so they can verify the harrassment campaign against
>him.  
> 
>	You folks should learn your limits.  Rather you should have learned
>them.  It is too late now.  

> BWAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA 

    OK, I made up that last line, but really, that is exactly what this
    sounds post like...  Giwer could have been the bad guy in most any C
    rated movie.

    This is hysterical!  So, in order to cause problems for other people,
    Giwer is going to ask deniers to send incriminating information to
    NETCOM (!!!) 

    The only rational thing Giwer wrote in his whole diatribe was, "It is
    too late now."  That it is.

    {big smiley}

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:28:55 PDT 1996
Article: 65292 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The more things change...
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199620275715@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>  <09SEP96.14484396.0075@IBM.UTM.EDU> <51auuv$8v8@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:29421 alt.politics.white-power:43155 alt.revisionism:65292 alt.skinheads:37372

In article <51auuv$8v8@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes...
>Joel Rosenberg replies to me:
>> Well, to your credit, at least you're not Schoedel, pretending to be able to 
>> take words back.
> 
>I made alot of statements I'm certainly not proud of, and while I retract
>these statements as not reflecting what I presently believe, I won't deny
>I made them.

    Milt Kleim is nothing like Ron Schoedel (at least as far as one can
    tell from merely reading their work on the web.)

    I am not quite sure what to make of Milt's "coming out," so to speak. 
    But as a net Nazi, I always found him more articulate than most and
    more honest than most (which is tough to differentiate when at times it
    was obvious he was lying)  :>

    Both Jason Smith and Milt Kleim seemed to have a genuine belief in
    Aryan superiority and the rest of their views logically, or
    semi-logically fell from that.  Others out there I am not so sure of...

    I always found it puzzling how Milt could put together very persuasive
    logical written arguments yet seem to fail to see fallacies within his
    own logic.  I am still not quite sure whether he was blind to them or
    knew of the fallacies.

    I do wish Milt luck.  I suspect, as I have said to him in e-mail, that
    he still has a long way to go on his journey and that his world view
    will continue to evolve.  It seems, though he does say his web page
    framing is for a particular audience, that he still holds some Aryan
    supremecy view its just that he does not believe now in harming others
    as part of them.  I still see some illogic here (not in the lack of
    harming others, but in the superiority of one group over others) and
    maybe Milt will work that out in the future.  On the other hand, he
    likely will always disagree with me on major issues - but the world has
    shown me for many years that there is room for people who disagree with
    me (sometimes more room than there is for me.)

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:28:55 PDT 1996
Article: 65295 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:38 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622384289@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50le5n$d5k@lex.zippo.com> <50ppn4$a8h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50r18l$c78@lex.zippo.com> <51c5hk$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:43160 alt.revisionism:65295

In article <51c5hk$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 13 Sep 1996 08:36 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    As Tommy has asserted this point for several months now, there is a
>>    Nizkor FAQ discussion which clearly demonstrates the fallaciousness of
>>    the troll's assertions.
> 
>	We agree that Nizkor is run by a DOD contractor.  Beyond that, we also
>know he is a professed liar.  
>	
>	McVay has lied to NETCOM at least through his ego-bereft minions who
>can only support MCVAY! MCVAY! MCVAY! Sieg Heil!  
> 
>	Why would you folks deny that McVay requested what I sent him?  
> 
>	Why would he deny that he did in fact request what he was sent?  
> 
>	I admit it was a clever set up.
> 
>	And I further agree I fell for it.
> 
>	But now you see, after two months the holohuggers are attempting to
>cover up for Alec Grynspan major mail bombing of me.  It is a trivial
>matter and the evidence the holohuggers work together to create false
>and lying allegations has been provided to netcom.  
> 
>	And everytime you folks post your nonsense you dig a deeper hole.  

    All I can tell from this post is that NETCOM got you in a real snit,
    you went out and got drunk, and you are now posting paranoid incoherent
    drivel again.

    Lucky for you that NETCOM doesn't have a rule against this  :>

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:28:56 PDT 1996
Article: 65296 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622435853@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51ca4p$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <51d5g3$9gc@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51d5g3$9gc@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...
>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes
> 
>>  	As McVay and and YFE have demonstrated, holohuggers are liars and 
>>  will harrass ISPs simply to get a person silenced.  
> 
>>  	It is clear that you folks do not want real discussion.  Bnd it is
>>  clear that you will pretend you do while you do the contrary.
> 
>	Libel is not free speech.  You libel people.
> 
>	Invasion of privacy is not free speech.  You have invaded the privacy of 
>others.
> 
>	Interfering with the service of others is not free speech.  You mailbombed 
>Nizkor.
> 
>	Extortion is not free speech.  You have attempted extortion against 
>Nizkor.
> 
>	Death threats are not free speech.  You have made them.

    Best evidence that Giwer is never going to sue anyone is that he is
    going to sit there and take this from Yale.  And Giwer is going to do
    that because Giwer knows it all is true.

    Go ahead Giwer...  Yale has called you a libeller, a privacy invader, a
    mailbomber, an extortionist, and a death threater.  Go ahead and make
    my day.  Don't just threaten, start that suit rolling!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:28:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65297 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Main Convincing Point for Revisionism
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
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References: <32397889.5615641@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <32397889.5615641@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	I find one certain aspect of the Holocaust controversy that tilts
>ears and minds in the direction of the revisionists side of the story,
>right away.  Once this is shown, they become very attentive. 
>	The aspect is - the presentation of the Holocaust prosecution
>efforts to block any further discussion on the matter.  
>	Any excuses for refusing to discuss it, any manifestation of the
>child logic, all the charges of "hate" and "racism" can not stamp out
>the basic prevalent human nature to be suspicious of someone who
>professes something and then not only refuses to discuss it, but
>actually tries to stop any further discussion.  

    Gotta good point there Tommy.  I guess this is why in your year on
    alt.revisionism nobody has tried to get you kicked off.  Nobody has
    auto-cancelled your posts.  Many have tried to get you to frame your
    arguments better.  Many have tried to get you to offer citations to
    support your assertions.  Many have responded and debated with you.

    I guess all of this is evidence that we all are making effort to "block
    any further discussion on the matter."

    Go figger.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:28:58 PDT 1996
Article: 65311 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Order of Tampa Bay
Date: 13 Sep 1996 21:56 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
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In article <51bj4q$kr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	Proudly display on your screen a certificate certifying your title as
>a member of the Order of Tampa Bay.  You will be permitted to sign
>Your Name, OTB.  

    That should read: OTMB


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================

                         "Ordered Too Much Beer"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:28:58 PDT 1996
Article: 65313 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Posts Fake Testimony
Date: 13 Sep 1996 21:52 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 54
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199621522974@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes...
>100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) writes:
> 
>[To stinking liar Matt Giwer]
> 
># You were simply asked for the name of this physician.
> 
>The stinking liar can't post it, as no physician
>ever gave this testimony.
> 
>He chokes on his lies. Had he been smarter, he'd
>invent lies that were harder to expose; but he's
>too stupid to do that.

    Danny,

    You are getting frustrated with Giwer but once your realize he posted:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    in Message-ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> then you realize
    that he is just trying to string people along.

    Of course he is lying.  Of course he has no data to back up his lies. 
    But he simply wants to keep you too busy and too frustrated to do good
    work in other places.  Don't play his game.  Post short replies
    pointing out his lies and his omissions if you must.  But if he is
    getting to you then he is winning.  Don't let him do that.

    Just remember:

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:28:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65323 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, here's the directions you wanted..
Date: 13 Sep 1996 23:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 103
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199623161663@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50u1vf$9lk@viper.txdirect.net> <519ghn$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes...
>Would anybody, perchance, have an address or even just a city name for Mr. 
>Giwer?  

    Tampa, Florida (or in that area, at least).  He has posted his address
    previously.  It may be on his web page.  The Cincinnati address, posted
    recently (and below), is his parents' address.  No one should go
    harrass his parents simply because Giwer is an asshole.  Their address
    should not be posted on the net as they are not party to any discussion
    here.

>The following, which purports to be a message from him, appears to contain a 
>threat to violence, which is generally acknowledged to be not merely naughty, 
>but often illegal.

    Rich Graves or Mike Stein can probably tell you if the headers and path
    match other Giwer posts in order to authenticate it.

    If you are going to consider this a serious threat you might want to
    engage in e-mail correspondence with Yale and/or Ken who are both up to
    date on the FBI investigation into Giwer's web activities.  The agents
    investigating Giwer would probably be interested in the threat.  You
    may also choose to pass the information on to NETCOM pointing out the
    date and time of the post.  They may be amused that it comes so shortly
    after they reinstated Giwer's account.

>In article <51cbb1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  
>Giwer) writes:>Path:
>>winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!n
>>ews.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, here's the directions you wanted..
>>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:04:55 GMT
>>Organization: images incarnate
>>Lines: 49
>>Message-ID: <51cbb1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
>>References: <50u1vf$9lk@viper.txdirect.net> <519ghn$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>> <51c5te$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
>>
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl16-14.ix.netcom.com
>>X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 13 12:06:09 PM PDT 1996
>>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> 
> 
>>On Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:54:15, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>>wrote:
> 
>>>Start at xxxx Harrison Avenue in Cincinnati, Ohio.  It's not a good 
>>>neighborhood -- smells kind of funny -- but it's a good starting place.  
>>>Follow Harrison East for just over two and a half miles -- walking distance; 
>>>it'd be shorter as the crow files -- until you come to the second set of 
>>>railroad tracks.  
> 
>>>Walk due south until your hat floats. 
> 
>>>You'll feel better.  Trust me.  
> 
>>        Of course but he will kill you and if not my brother will kill you for
>>even coming close.
> 
>>        You fucking jew traitor.  
> 
>>        You murdering Jews are all alike and you are not expected to be any
>>different.  
> 
>>        Should lightening strike my family JEWS will be named because of you.
>>And of course I will have you on my better dead list.  And I am good
>>at it.  
> 
>>        You are advised to spend your time playing bodyguard to my family.
> 
>>        That is the only way you have to save yourself.  
> 
>>        Keep that firmly in mind.  
>>=====
> 
>>There's no business like Shoah Business
>>Like no business I know.
>>Everything about it is appealing,
>>Everything that traffic will allow.
>>No where can you get that happy feeling
>>Than when you're stealing
> 
>>There's no business like Shoah business
>>It's like no business I know
>>Everything about it is misleading
>>Everything about it seems a fraud
>>Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading
>>For more donations to their cause
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>....and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:29:00 PDT 1996
Article: 65329 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mem.bellsouth.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where's Giwer?
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:55 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622554410@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <51akdh$omg@news.ccit.arizona.edu> <51c65r$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <51c65r$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Fri, 13 Sep 1996 03:29:47 GMT, danny@arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
>wrote:
> 
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>>Where's Giwer?
> 
>>	With Waldo.
> 
>	Right here, idiot holohugger.  

    For now.

    And say hello to Waldo for me on your way out, will you?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 01:29:00 PDT 1996
Article: 65332 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mem.bellsouth.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF MY STUPIDITY
Date: 13 Sep 1996 23:06 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199623063309@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51cem6$hd1@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>In accordance with the agreement with Netcom to allow me to once again have 
>access, I hereby do declare that I am a racist, pig-like liar and troller.
                                                 ^^^

    You lie Marduk^H^H^H^H^H^HGiwer!  I saw the pictures.  You are an
    ape-like liar!
    ^^^

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 08:50:39 PDT 1996
Article: 65344 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 08:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 76
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199608361313@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50le5n$d5k@lex.zippo.com> <50ppn4$a8h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50r18l$c78@lex.zippo.com> <51bing$kr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:43181 alt.revisionism:65344

In article <51bing$kr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:42:23 +0000, Laurinda Stryker

>>>         It has to do with the same total before and after Auschwitz was
>>> reduced by 3 million.
> 
>>I'm not even going to suggest _you're_ being disingenous, Mr. Giwer.  
>>You are lying.  The inflated figure of four million was claimed by the 
>>Soviets but not by Holocaust scholars; their total has been 
>>consistently the same.
> 
>	Excuse me.  You claim the number has always been the same.  Therefore
>prior to the revision the total was
> 
>	4 million + others = 6 million
> 
>	After the revision it was
> 
>	1 million + others = 6 million
> 
>	Please explain which of the "others" increased at the same time
>Auschwitz decreased.  It is simple arithmetic.  The "others" has to
>have increased by 3 million.  Which ones did?
> 
>	Of course you will find that none of them did.  You will also find
>that the numbers never did add up.  
> 
>	You will also find that the 6 and 12 million numbers were completely
>arbitrary and taken from the 31 million untraceable (not necessarily
>dead simply untraceable) people after the war.  

    As Tommy has asserted this point for several months now, there is a
    Nizkor FAQ discussion which clearly demonstrates the fallaciousness of
    the troll's assertions.

    But more important than that are the troll's motives.

    I point Lucinda and others to Message-ID
    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> posted on or about September 6,
    1996 in which he states:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    But, in particular, reread the quote from him above and ask yourself,
    "do I really think it good use of my time to argue with this guy, or
    should I just ignore his outrageous statements?"  If you feel you must
    respond so that the novice reader is not fooled by him, consider
    clipping this post and using it as your reply. 

    Whatever you do, don't let him suck you into his game.  Point out to
    the world he is a troll - or better yet, ignore him completely.  He
    hates that.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 08:50:40 PDT 1996
Article: 65372 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:53 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622532340@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com> <50jrcm$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>  <50m9mi$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <51c3m1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51c3m1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 22:02:56 -0300, Keith Morrison 
>wrote:
> 
>>1.  How many bones does _Gray's Anatomy_, your opinions
>>notwithstanding, say compose the skull and pelvis?
> 
>>2.  What hominid averaged seven feet tall?
> 
>>3.  Why does standard texts on chemical warfare list HCN,
>>and why did NATO give it a STANAG of "AC" if no one ever
>>thought of using it in chemical warfare?
> 
>>4.  Figure out what Raul Wallenberg contributed to the USHMM
>>yet?
> 
>	In accordance with my agreement with Netcom, I will not respond with
>the supporting information that Ken McVay requested and then falsely
>claimed was a mailbomb when it was only an answer to his questions.  
> 
>	Yours are fewer but still my agreement with Netcom prohibits me from
>proving you an idiot in your questions.  

    Translation: I have no answers to those questions for which I don't
    look stupid, so I will try this new dodge which NETCOM has afforded me
    and see if it works.


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 08:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 65373 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: thought for the day...
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:05 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622050491@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <515c8b$go5@Vir.com> <32396368.206243@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <32396368.206243@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>>"When someone has in the mind the liquidation of hundreds of thousands
>> of people, he's hardly ordering colorimetric gas testers by bunch
>> of ten"
>>
>>-Confucius

>	This sounds like something Confusius would say.

    Does this sound as funny to everyone else as it does to me?
    That Tommy, he cracks me up.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 10:04:54 PDT 1996
Article: 65426 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, here's the directions you wanted..
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622591044@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50u1vf$9lk@viper.txdirect.net> <519ghn$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <51cbb1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <51cbb1$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>	Of course but he will kill you and if not my brother will kill you for
>even coming close.
> 
>	You fucking jew traitor.  
> 
>	You murdering Jews are all alike and you are not expected to be any
>different.  
> 
>	Should lightening strike my family JEWS will be named because of you.
>And of course I will have you on my better dead list.  And I am good
>at it.  
> 
>	You are advised to spend your time playing bodyguard to my family.
> 
>	That is the only way you have to save yourself.  
> 
>	Keep that firmly in mind.  

    With threats like this, I would think he has probably spent time in the
    Mossad.  

    :>

    I guess that claim by Giwer that he never gets upset goes way out the
    window again.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 11:51:45 PDT 1996
Article: 65443 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,mtl.general,quebec.general,ab.general,edm.general,bc.general
Subject: Re: McVay's Addresses & Phone Numbers again
Date: 14 Sep 1996 10:21 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 69
Distribution: world
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:65443 can.general:90928 ab.general:12466 bc.general:53195

In article , acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca writes...

>According to published records, the addresses and phone numbers of [Nye's]
>pro-Jewish mentor are:
> 
>Kenneth McVay
>462- 1150 North Terminal Avenue
>Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>Phone - 604-382-0615
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
> 
>also:
> 
>Ken McVay
>1B Systems Management Limited
>5-1601 Bowen Road
>Nanaimo, BC V9S 1G7
>Phone 604-758-2499
>kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.ca
> 
>The above 2 addresses were provided by INTERNIC and originally 
>distributed as a public service by a regular correspondent to McVay.

    As Mr. Grossvenom has been so kind to point out, the address up top is
    a legitimate address to send your Nizkor donations to.  (I am uncertain
    whether the second address is still good or is outdated.)  A donation
    sent to the address up top will be delayed by a month or so as it is a
    drop box which is rarely checked.  To send your donation (and receive
    your Canadian tax receipt more quickly) send it to:

          Congregation Emmanu-El / Nizkor Project
          1461 Blanshard St.
          Victoria, BC
          V8W 2J3

    In the United States, checks should be made payable to:

         "SAN ANTONIO AREA FOUNDATION - Nizkor Fund"    

    and should be mailed to:

         San Antonio Area Foundation Nizkor Fund  
         P.O. Box 120366 
         San Antonio, TX
         78212-9566

    We thank Mr. Grossvenom for his hearty endorsement of the Nizkor work.
    Funds provided in the past have been used to provide substantial
    improvements in service.  It is through these announcements of the
    mailing address that Mr. Grossvenom and Mr. Giwer make that we keep our
    face in front of the public.  And even more important than that, it is
    through the repeated anti-semitic postings that Mr. Grossvenom and Mr.
    Giwer make that our public recognizes the importance of an organization
    such as Nizkor. 

    Keep up the good work boys.  And to the rest of our readers, just
    remember each time you see Ken McVay's address posted to the net by an
    anti-semite, that it really is just a simple advertisement for the
    importance of Nizkor.

    [Anyone not knowing why we get so sarcastic in our responses to
    Grossvenom and Giwer are encouraged to take a look at their own words
    in sections under the URL: http://www.nizkor.org/people/g/
    and judge for yourselves.]

The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here
                       |--------------------------------------



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 11:51:47 PDT 1996
Article: 65452 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: can.general,qc.general,mtl.general,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canadian
Subject: Re: QUEBEC FED UP WITH PHONEY ISRAELI REFUGEES
Date: 14 Sep 1996 11:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <14SEP199611095187@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <51eqh8$4cj2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:90932 qc.general:10047 alt.revisionism:65452

In article <51eqh8$4cj2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes...
>In message <32336A78.FB5@concentric.net> - echte Wahrheit
>Mon, 09 Sep 1996 07:53:12 +0700 writes:
>:>
>:>acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
>:>> 
>:>
>:>Why then is the Canadian Government allowing these criminals, which is
>:>what they are, into Canada, thereby delaying the processing for
>:>legitimate immigration applications?
> 
>Even more interesting, why is Grosvenor posting under one alias and answering
>himself under another?

    Terminal masturbation?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 11:51:48 PDT 1996
Article: 65456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Milton Kleim
Date: 14 Sep 1996 10:38 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <14SEP199610381352@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <50siqs$fui@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:29478 alt.politics.white-power:43221 alt.revisionism:65456 alt.skinheads:37431

In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes...
>In <51arar$7s5@freenet-news.carleton.ca> bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes:
> 
>! Tell me, Davey.  Now that you've identified these "enemies," please tell
>! me WHY they are enemies?  What have they done to the White Race?  More 
>! specifically, what actions have they engaged in, or what products have 
>! they produced, which are not DESIRED by the White Race?
> 
>They control our society.

    [short snip]

>! This, of course, ignores the fact that the Aryans themselves VOLUNTARILY 
>! embrace the television shows, the movies, the fashion, all the things the 
>! "movement" loons claim is "genocide."  It's a prime illustration of 
>! refusal to accept responsibility for one's own actions.  Blame SOMEONE,
>! just not our own failings.
> 
>How irrelevent!  We are forced, we have no choice.  

    I know!  Last night I *wanted* to read some Goethe, but I was *forced*
    to watch _Family Matters_ instead.  Yeah, Bill Clinton and Jesse
    Jackson came over to my house, tore my Goethe from my hands, and sat me
    in front of the TV set just in time for Herkel.  There was nothing I
    could do; I was forced!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 12:32:21 PDT 1996
Article: 65467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!bt!btnet-feed2!btnet!netcom.net.uk!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news.enteract.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Main Convincing Point for Revisionism
Date: 13 Sep 1996 22:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 119
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13SEP199622361619@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <32397889.5615641@news.pacificnet.net> <323a0f63.3517671@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323a0f63.3517671@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>	I find one certain aspect of the Holocaust controversy that tilts
>>ears and minds in the direction of the revisionists side of the story,
>>right away.  Once this is shown, they become very attentive. 
>>	The aspect is - the presentation of the Holocaust prosecution
>>efforts to block any further discussion on the matter.  
>>	Any excuses for refusing to discuss it, any manifestation of the
>>child logic, all the charges of "hate" and "racism" can not stamp out
>>the basic prevalent human nature to be suspicious of someone who
>>professes something and then not only refuses to discuss it, but
>>actually tries to stop any further discussion. 
> 
>	As to any comments about discussions on alt.revisionism denying
>there is a process of refusing to debate, these people out here are
>not the principles involved. The challenge for debate is directed
>towards the likes of Simon Wiesenthal and Debra Lipstadt. 

    What's wrong with debating us?  What are we?  Chopped liver?  And
    anyway Tommy, you are nearly ready for the big leagues yet.  You aren't
    even hitting here in double A ball.

>	The challenges for debate are directed towards it being discussed
>in the papers and on campuses. All this is refused and even challenged
>with massive concerted foot stompin out raged indignation that keeps
>it form happening.

    If you had actually read Lipstadt you would know that most college
    papers decided to accept Bradley Smith's advertisements about the
    Holocaust.  They were printed in dozens if not a hundred campus papers. 
    On many occasions the advertisements spurred discussion, debate, or
    dissention on campus.  Yes, people opposed the printing of the ads -
    but in the end many to most papers decided to print them.

    See.  If you really want to debate the likes of Wiesenthal or Lipstadt,
    you can't be so far off base with your information.

>	There are many intrigues in trying to have debate censored in the
>U.S. and the world. 

    Yes there are.  So?

>	Just a few months ago the U.S. House of Representatives voted 420
>to 0 to condemn any Holocaust revisionism. They didn't come to do it
>on their own. It was from the same process of a concerted foot stompin
>out cry of righteous indignation by the Jewish community who has
>tantamount assess to these legislators. The only votes in congress

    That's "access," Tommy.  You have never demonstrated to us what
    connection there was between Jewish lobbies and the Congressional vote. 
    You assert it, but you don't demonstrate it.  Big league debate
    requires some evidence Tommy.  Even here in double A you gotta do
    better than this.  You just look dumb (a redundant thought) when you
    don't.

>that ever get any 420 to 0, 95 to 0, 92 to 0, any overwhelming votes
>are those that benefit Jewish causes. Check the records. There's the
>story.

    Actually, no.  Every Tuesday the House takes up private bills by
    unanimous consent.  These bills cover all sort of different things.  I
    am sure that some of them are of Jewish concern; many to most are not.
    I know this from my own experience working on the floor of the House. 
    From what experience or writings do you know otherwise?

>	Then there is the record of those themselves, editorials, letters
>to the editors, full page ads.

    Huh?  Well at least we know this statement was not written by your
    handlers.  It makes no sense...

>	For any one to come out here and deny there is a concerted energy
>to keep the Holocaust story from dispute is like them telling you the
>sky ain't blue on a sunny day.

    I think you got this somewhat sideways, zeyde.  Many many people would
    be happy to consider alternative descriptions of the Holocaust
    (although I admit some will not consider such at all).  But those many
    many people have not seen any evidence which stands up to scrutiny to
    get them to say, "hmmm, maybe there is something to this revisionist
    thing" and you have not yourself presented anything which stands up to
    scrutiny at all.

    You, for example, repeatedly post assertions denying aspects of the
    Holocaust.  Every month we read your assertions and post rebuttals to
    them.  Then you ignore our rebuttals and repost your same assertions.

    Such debate does not convince the masses.  Such debate does not work in
    double A, let alone the show.

>	You will also come to recognize how revisionist are called
>"anti-Semitic", "neo-Nazis" and "racists". These terms are used to
>drive the Holocaust deniers into the realms of the politically and
>socially incorrect, therefore a taboo subject.

    Well, don't go there then.  Ehrlich did a good job here of not ever
    posting anything anti-semitic.  David Thomas walks a fine line and
    usually (if not always) avoids it.  You, zeyde, cross the line on a
    regular basis.  I suspect this is for two reasons:  [1] you are too
    stupid to know how to make an effective non-antisemitic argument; and
    [2] you are an anti-semite so it just comes naturally to you.

    Most (probably all) regular readers of your drivel do not call you
    "neo-Nazi" as you do not post Nazi propoganda.  Some may call you
    racist as an extension of your anti-semitism.  I, for one, do not
    recall much anti-black racism on your part.

>	Keep watching. There have been post that show it in their own
>words, and they will come again.

    Yeah, right.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 16:27:42 PDT 1996
Article: 65530 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinions on Nuremberg
Date: 14 Sep 1996 11:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <14SEP199611163555@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <508501$cgq@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <50jmkb$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <322dc389.1924736@news.pacificnet.net> <51eqfb$2qbm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <51eqfb$2qbm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes...

>... Little Tommy can get off his ass and access much of the
>information on-line, assuming his rigii finally works.  Since he is so
>familiar with Nizkor, I'm sure he will find it very quickly.
> 
>Failing that, there is a little thing called libraries.  I am sure that after
>several tries, Tommy will be able to figure that one out too.  
> 
>One common characteristic of deniers seems to be their reluctance to do
>research.  Wonder why?

    The Jews won't let them?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 19:15:15 PDT 1996
Article: 65600 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATORY RATES SHOW "GASSING" IS PROPAGANDA LIES!
Date: 14 Sep 1996 10:31 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 60
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <14SEP199610312024@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:   <323a172e.5512327@news.pacificnet.net> <323acb05.5858080@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323acb05.5858080@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 
>>But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
>>beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
>>Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
>>evidence of this please see:
>>
>>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
>>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
>>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
>>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
>>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq
> 
>	Here we have the same finale that Mr.VanAlstine gave above in the
>thread to his usual lengthy drone on responses. 
> 
>	Evidently Mr.VanAlstine finds in his own subliminal that whatever
>he put forth as to that was insufficient and he found that he better
>add these irrelevant URLs to discredit Moran.

    Is there someone in the house who speaks Moranian?  Marty, can you take
    a stab at a translation?  Bill?  Do we have any linguists out there at
    all?

>	Moran has written over 220 articles to alt.revisionism, thus we
>can see that Mr.VanAlstine can only point to a few in attempts at
>undoing Moran.

    No.  Moran has written well under 220 articles to alt.revisionism. 
    Moran reguritates the same drivel over and over under different subject
    lines, most of it semi-literate as evidenced above.  Moran also reposts
    work provided to him by handlers who are more educated and literate. 
    It is dishonest for Moran to claim to have "written" this work (unless
    we consider _typing it into his 'rigii'_ to be writing.)

    Mr. VanAlstine does not have to post pointers to all of Moran's (or his
    handlers') articles to undo Moran.  The pointers above are to thread,
    FAQs, and discussion of Moran's logic and posting style.  They are
    easily sufficient to give any new reader a flavor of Moran's cognative
    disabilities.

>	Mr.Van Alstine is a funny individual.

    It is unclear how Moran discerns this as much of Moran's humor to
    alt.revisionism has focused around wee wee and poo poo jokes (I am not
    making this up)!

>	Keep an eye on Mr.VanAlstine's responses and take note of how he
>drags them on, over expanding to the point where it becomes
>incoherent.

    Moran has trouble with compound thoughts.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 14 20:26:34 PDT 1996
Article: 65609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: 14 Sep 1996 10:46 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <14SEP199610462128@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net> <323ad748.8997483@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323ad748.8997483@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>	A "goyim" is a non-Jew.

    No, zeyde, a goyim is a group of non-Jews.  But thanks for playing.

    You might want to brush up on your yiddish so you can teach it to your
    grandkids.  May I recommend Leo Rosten's _The Joys of Yiddish_?  Not
    only will it teach you oodles about the language and culture which you
    can then pass on to your Jewish progeny, but while you are learning the
    mistakes you will no doubt make here will be hysterical.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 09:27:04 PDT 1996
Article: 65677 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT II - sign on here
Date: 14 Sep 1996 11:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <14SEP199611194709@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323037e3.2511720@news.pacificnet.net> <323360d8.32468309@news.pacificnet.net><323037e3.2511720@news.pacificnet.net> <51eqhp$4cj2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51eqhp$4cj2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes...
>dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell)10
>:>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>:>>schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard

>:>>:>Now if someone would just tell me what a "nibling" is. . .

>:>>With pleasure.  A "nibling" is the person who puts those small points on the
>:>>end of fountain pens.

>:>	ROTFL!!!

>Control yourself, Derek.  Now if someone would just tell us what a "Moran" is.

    A Moran is someone who can't even get a job nibling...

    No, wait.  That's a Giwer.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 09:27:05 PDT 1996
Article: 65769 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, here's the directions you wanted..
Date: 14 Sep 1996 22:55 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <14SEP199622554000@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50u1vf$9lk@viper.txdirect.net> <519ghn$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <51f3p9$5c1@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <51f3p9$5c1@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 13 Sep 1996 23:16 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes...
>>>Would anybody, perchance, have an address or even just a city name for Mr. 
>>>Giwer?  
> 
>>    Tampa, Florida (or in that area, at least).  He has posted his address
>>    previously.  It may be on his web page.  The Cincinnati address, posted
>>    recently (and below), is his parents' address.  No one should go
>>    harrass his parents simply because Giwer is an asshole.  Their address
>>    should not be posted on the net as they are not party to any discussion
>>    here.
> 
>	Then why did Ken McVay call them?  

    OK, I'll come clean.  Ken McVay did call your parents.  It was an
    elaborate scheme and it may still work.  He called them and then
    blackmailed Andrew Mathis to admit to his crime to throw you off the
    trail, but you are so good that that deception didn't work.

    The plan was to use a DoD made device which impart high frequency
    pitched noise over the phone on your father.  The plan was to hypnotize
    your father and bring him in as an unwitting dupe of ZOG.  The plan was
    to use him to get to you by periodically pumping him for information
    about your devious plans to foil ZOG.

    But you were to nimble for us and our dastardly plan didn't work.  Or
    did it??? 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 09:27:06 PDT 1996
Article: 65771 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Posts Fake Testimony
Date: 15 Sep 1996 06:54 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 65
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199606542833@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <510rta$h3h@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <519v3j$mv7@arl-news-svc-6.compuserve.com> <51eu4r$i7q@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51eu4r$i7q@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 13 Sep 1996 21:52 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    Just remember:
> 
>>    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
>>    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
>>    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
>>    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
>>    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
>>    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
>>    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
>>    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 
> 
>>    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>>    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
>>    various subdirectories beneath this.
> 
>	Whois Ken McVay?
> 
>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
>   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>   CA
>   1-604-382-0615

    As Giwer has been so kind to point out in this Nizkor advertisement,
    the address above is a legitimate address to send your Nizkor donations
    to.  However, as it is a drop box which is rarely checked, your
    donation will be processed faster (and you will receive your Canadian
    tax receipt more quickly) if you send it to:

          The Zikaron Society / Nizkor Project

    Please mail your cheque to

          The Zikaron Tolerance and Remembrance Society
          6540 East Hastings Street, Suite 221
          Burnaby, BC V5B 4Z5

    In the United States, checks should be made payable to:

         "SAN ANTONIO AREA FOUNDATION - Nizkor Fund"

    and should be mailed to:

         San Antonio Area Foundation Nizkor Fund 
         P.O. Box 120366 
         San Antonio, TX
         78212-9566

    Nizkor thanks Linda Thompson, Matt Giwer and  Mr.
    Grosvenor-Gruber-Acumen-Wahrheit, for the continuing reminder of the
    importance of public education, and their contributions to the
    continuing success of the Nizkor Project.

-- 
Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html





From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 09:27:06 PDT 1996
Article: 65775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinions on Nuremberg
Date: 15 Sep 1996 07:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199607095911@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <508501$cgq@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <50jmkb$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <322dc389.1924736@news.pacificnet.net> <51ffta$15o@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <51ffta$15o@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

    We have another Matt Koan:

>	Research is not reading researchers save to liberal arts pukes.  

    What other pearls of wisdom can we receive from this man/god?

[anti-semitic .sig deleted]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 09:27:07 PDT 1996
Article: 65778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does anyone have it?
Date: 15 Sep 1996 07:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199607235248@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51eoji$i7q@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <323b5041.751374@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323b5041.751374@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
>>	I have managed to lose my copy of the Nuremberg testimony in which it
>>was sworn under oath (proving the evil of Nazi medical experiments)
>>that prisoners were given cancer in some experments.  
>>
>>	It is a real laugh riot and I would like to post it again and again
>>and again but I have lost it.  It will be appreciated if someone who
>>kept it would repost it.
> 
>	Maybe Mr.VanAlstine or Mr.Mittleman, or even Mr."McFee" could
>help you.  Just think, if they did, everyone would hear about it. The
>whole Internet would be passing the word of how objective they are. It
>would be a great tactical maneuver. 

    Thank you for the vote of confidence, zeyde, but [1] I don't have ready
    access to Nuremburg testimony; and [2] I am not inclined to give Giwer
    any help whatsoever.

    While I might make a small effort to help you, or Milt Kleim, or
    Ehrlich, or David Thomas, Giwer is an insidious troll who deserves no
    assistance.

    I do know that the Nuremburg testimony is in some libraries and that
    Giwer could search libraries on the web and then arrange to borrow (or
    have xeroxed) what he needs through interlibrary loan.  But Giwer is
    too lazy to do this.  He always wants someone else to do his work for
    him.

    I also know that one regular poster to a.r has the testimony in his
    private library.  But I am confident he has no desire to assist Giwer
    either.

    So much for tactical maneuvers, eh zeyde?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 09:27:08 PDT 1996
Article: 65781 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Can There Be Moderate Racists?
Date: 15 Sep 1996 07:30 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199607302236@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:29587 alt.politics.white-power:43333 alt.revisionism:65781 alt.skinheads:37506

In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes...
>In <13SEP199620275715@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
> 
>!     I always found it puzzling how Milt could put together very persuasive
>!     logical written arguments yet seem to fail to see fallacies within his
>!     own logic.  I am still not quite sure whether he was blind to them or
>!     knew of the fallacies.
> 
>And where was your praise of his nazism a few months ago?  Are you 
>now going to admit that you lied about pretending that he was stupid?

    Search Deja News all you want and you will never find a post where I
    said or implied Milt Kleim was stupid.  Search well enough and you will
    find a post where I told Danny Keren long ago that I wished he would
    lay off his attacks on Milt Kleim.

    So, I admit nothing.  You care to admit you are shooting from the hip
    and have no idea what I have previously posted?

>Milton Kleim is trying to become a moderate racist.  I wish him
>success, it's a hard fight.  Society's hatred of racists reaches 
>it's epitomies with the moderates, it's practically illegal to be
>a moderate racist.  But there's a new time for everything!

    Milt is still evolving.  Right now he is at a place which is not very
    stable.  He will either become less of a racist over time (though much
    more "conservative" than I will ever be), or he will become an old
    bitter man (somewhat akin to Tom Moran, though Milt appears to be much
    more intelligent than Tom.)  It is Milt's intelligence which makes me
    optimistic that he will evolve to be less of a racist as time goes on. 
    He already sees some of the illogic of it, but it takes time for
    emotions to catch up with rational thinking.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 11:00:18 PDT 1996
Article: 65805 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: 15 Sep 1996 07:13 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199607135280@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	A "goyim" is a non-Jew.

    No, zeyde, this is incorrect.  Two of us corrected you on this point
    when you last posted this diatribe just a few days ago.

    Go out an learn some yiddish before giving us lessons in it.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 11:00:19 PDT 1996
Article: 65806 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: 15 Sep 1996 07:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199607162821@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net> <323ad748.8997483@news.pacificnet.net> <323b4ee2.400183@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
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In article <323b4ee2.400183@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>	
>>>	A "goyim" is a non-Jew.
>>	Meaning culturally and, and, and, and - genetically.
> 
>	Okay, there seems to have been some correction made here, by two
>of those we might assume are in on the know.
> 
>Mr.Mittleman:
>"No, zeyde, a goyim is a group of non-Jews.  But thanks for playing."
> 
>Mr.Rosenberg:
>"No, it isn't. Goyim is plural; goy is singular; and you're an idiot."
> 
>	Since the singular/plural issue seems to be the only problem
>expressed with the post we can take this to mean they have no
>complaint as to the term being identified as a genetic reference.
> 
>	Concisely, the word "goy" or "goyim" is a racial reference. More
>concisely yet, a racial slur. 

    No, zeyde, "goy" simply means "non Jew" in yiddish.  There is no
    negative connotation to the term.

    But please feel free to demonstrate otherwise using your vast knowledge
    of yiddish literature to defend your thesis.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 11:00:20 PDT 1996
Article: 65807 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Racists Control Everything
Date: 15 Sep 1996 07:18 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199607182559@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>   
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes...
>In <519482$9a1@lendl.cc.emory.edu> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
> 
>! : Absolutely.  Re: Mr. Ferguson, wealthy Jamaican immigrant to the USA.
>! 
>! Since Colin Ferguson is, by his own admission, a racist, it's difficult
>! to see your point.
> 
>Only whites can be racist.

    No.  Louis Farrakhan is a racist too.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 16:19:11 PDT 1996
Article: 65883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,mtl.general,quebec.general,ab.general,edm.general,bc.general
Subject: Re: McVay's Addresses & Phone Numbers again
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199615352737@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:   
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:65883 can.general:91027 ab.general:12492 bc.general:53269

In article , acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca writes...
>Since OyVey likes to have everyone contact him at home, for more money 
>according to his own messages,here again are his address and phone numbers:
>	Kenneth McVay
>	462 - 1150 North terminal Avenue
>	Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>	Phone - 604-382-0615

    In fact, Ken loves to entertain.  All racists and anti-semites are
    invited over to his "house" next Saturday evening.  Lets say, cocktails
    at eight.  Black^H^H^H^H^HWhite tie.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 16:41:52 PDT 1996
Article: 65884 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:13 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 69
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199615134450@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51eaui$lo8@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <51g8vg$2bj@news.enter.net> <51h298$1gj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51h298$1gj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 15 Sep 1996 06:50:24 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>  On 14 Sep 1996 04:27:54 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
>>>  >	The conclusions of the report have been posted.  You are just too lazy to 
>>>  >look up the report for yourself.
>>  
>>>  	Interesting that I did look it up and it makes no mention of autopsies
>>>  showing cyanide poisoning.  What in the world are you talking about?  
> 
>>	Larson's report.  Were you drunk when you read it?
> 
>	Making things up again.  Perhaps you were hallucinating in a fit of
>religious reverie of the thought of blood and murder and dancing
>naked?  

    Yale, shame on you!  On Rosh Hashanah too...  :>

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    Oh, and to save Giwer the trouble of putting down his bottle long
    enough to respond with his standard troll to this, let me add it here:

>	Whois Ken McVay?
> 
>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
>   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>   CA
>   1-604-382-0615

    [DoD information deleted as it is hopelessly out of date, but the
    interested ready can easily find it in Giwer's old trolls, or out on
    Deja News]

    And as Giwer has Nizkor's address wrong in this troll, allow me to add
    the correct address:

    Donations for the Nizkor Project's efforts may be made payable to

          The Zikaron Society / Nizkor Project

    Please mail your cheque to

          The Zikaron Tolerance and Remembrance Society
          6540 East Hastings Street, Suite 221
          Burnaby, BC V5B 4Z5

    Canadian income tax receipts will be issued.

    Hope this helps; enjoy your bottle, Giwer.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 16:41:53 PDT 1996
Article: 65885 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!EU.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,qc.general,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: QUEBEC FED UP WITH PHONEY ISRAELI REFUGEES, OR, ANOTHER ANTI-SEMITE STICKS HIS HEAD OUT OF A RAT HOLE.
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199615194362@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <32336A78.FB5@concentric.net> <514ckl$t64@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <51evvt$48b@news.sentex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:65885 can.general:91029 qc.general:10061 soc.culture.canada:98637

In article <51evvt$48b@news.sentex.net>, Barry Bruyea  writes...
>acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
>>Notice that the JEWS complaining about this news story, carried across 
>>Canada, refuse to answer the facts of the news story.
>>
>>Could it be that some Jew organisations are involved in an international 
>>crime cartel, and are using these criminal Jews from israel in their 
>>businesses?
>>
>>Those of you who are non-Jews, who had to obey immigration laws, are 
>>invited to vent your spleen regarding the fraud of having illegals Jews 
>>from Israel entering your country.
> 
>  It's amazing how much a small mind can make out of a news story. Any
>  excuse to shit out their anti-semitic crap.

    Mr. Grosvenor, writing under his alias de jour, has a long sorded
    history of shitting out small minded anti-semitic crap.  For a full
    history of this fruitcake, please take a look at:

       http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/grosvenor.william

    He is best defined by his own words.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 17:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 65889 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:05 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 82
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199615055677@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50le5n$d5k@lex.zippo.com> <50ppn4$a8h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50r18l$c78@lex.zippo.com> <51h8ft$1gj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:43375 alt.revisionism:65889

In article <51h8ft$1gj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:41:23 -0400, jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
> 
>>In article <51f317$i7q@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
>>>         Silly little handle.  
> 
>>Please note Message-ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> posted on
>>or about September 6, 1996 in which Giwer states:
> 
>>   "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
>>   That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
>>   idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
>>   folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
>>   wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  
> 
>>Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
>>causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
>>has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
>>document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
>>refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
>>engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
>>complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
>>counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him.
> 
>>For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt and the
>>various subdirectories beneath this. Of particular interest will be:
> 
>>  http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>>  http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    And for a specific example of Giwer's trolling, look below at how he
    answered Jeff Brown's post:

    BTW: the first address he posts is a mail drop.  The second address has
    been out of use since 1991.  :>

>	Whois Ken McVay?
> 
>===
> 
>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
>   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>   CA
>   1-604-382-0615
> 
>   Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.
> 
>The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
>(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
>Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.
> 
>=====
> 
>	The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July 1996 and 19
>August 1996.  However, as of 19 August 1996 the email address still worked.  It
>was originally captured on 17 July 1996.  It disppeared just prior to a 256 copy
>mailbomb from gryn.org saying that it was false information.  The owner of
>gryn.org, Alec Grynspan, openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e.
>Israeli intelligence.  
> 
>===
> 
>McVay, Ken (KM214)
>   1B Systems Management Limited
>   5-1601 Bowen Road
>   Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
>   CA
> 
>   (604) 758-2499
> 
>   kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA
> 
> 
>   Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
> 
>Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD Information.
>All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
>the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 17:18:47 PDT 1996
Article: 65894 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:46 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199615463773@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323c2944.4245922@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323c2944.4245922@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>		
>	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
>declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
>the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
>	It is tacit declaration they know they would lose, that they
>don't have faith in their position, that they know deep down inside or
>are consciously aware their own position sucks. 
>	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
>open discussion on the Holocaust. 

    Of course when we point out to Tommy that we are here debating him, he
    simply ignores our responses.  And of course, when we rebut Tommy's
    points in debate, he ignores our rebuttals and simply reposts his same
    drivel the next time around.

    I assert, therefore, that WE are willing to debate Tommy, but Tommy by
    his actions is refusing to debate us.  (I am defining WE as: those
    listed on the Nikzor contributer page, Yale Edieken, Marty Kelley, and
    myself.)  Tommy is a coward who will not debate us.  He will simply
    continue to repost his refuted rubbish to the web.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 17:18:48 PDT 1996
Article: 65898 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: holohugging traitors
Date: 15 Sep 1996 16:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199616104997@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51caqf$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <51emce$1v0@Vir.com> <323c2c9f.5104949@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    In article <323c2c9f.5104949@news.pacificnet.net> HATE HATE HATE filled
    (and semi-literate) Tommy Moran now writes:

>	How about making them submit to a debate on national television,
>on the campus and in the major medias? This is their ultimate fear.
>Having to defend their idiotic propostions directly under cross
>examination.

    "Making" them submit to a debate?  Me thinks you don't really
    understand freedom of speech, Tommy.  "On the campus"?  So, Tommy, what
    was your response to Marty Kelley's invitation to come speak to his
    class?  "Major medias"?  So, Tommy, how many "medias" do you think we
    have in this country?

    How about, Tommy, you and your fellow deniers go write a monograph
    laying out your best denier arguments and supporting those arguments
    with documentation and research.  And then we will go and write our
    monograph addressing what you have to say.  (You need to go first as
    you are putting forward the alternative hypothesis - and anyway there
    have been over several hundred, if not a thousand books already written
    on the Holocaust supporting the conventional view.)  Then both
    monographs will exist and anyone can read them to reach their own
    conclusion.  You all can even write a rebuttal to our monograph if you
    like.  This will eliminate either side from using deception to further
    its cause.  It will force both sides to do solid documented research.

    How about it, Tommy?

>	Freedom of speech is the arch enemy of Judo-Zionism. 	

    Snort.  That explains why there have been so few Jews involved with the
    ACLU, doesn't it?  Finally, I understand!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 17:47:22 PDT 1996
Article: 65904 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Can There Be Moderate Racists?
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199615273503@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <323c070c.30252250@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:29651 alt.politics.white-power:43380 alt.revisionism:65904 alt.skinheads:37529

In article <323c070c.30252250@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) writes...
>qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
> 
>>In <13SEP199620275715@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
>>
>>!     I always found it puzzling how Milt could put together very persuasive
>>!     logical written arguments yet seem to fail to see fallacies within his
>>!     own logic.  I am still not quite sure whether he was blind to them or
>>!     knew of the fallacies.
>>
>>And where was your praise of his nazism a few months ago?  Are you 
>>now going to admit that you lied about pretending that he was stupid?
>>
>>Milton Kleim is trying to become a moderate racist.  I wish him
>>success, it's a hard fight.  Society's hatred of racists reaches 
>>it's epitomies with the moderates, it's practically illegal to be
>>a moderate racist.  But there's a new time for everything!
> 
>How would you describe Rabbi Meyer Schiller?

    I don't know who he is.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 19:46:07 PDT 1996
Article: 65907 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does anyone have it?
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199617191834@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51eoji$i7q@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <323b5041.751374@news.pacificnet.net> <15SEP199607235248@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <323c413c.10382253@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323c413c.10382253@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>	Mr.Mittleman refuses to help adversary. If Mr.Mittleman thinks
>the records of the Nuremberg Trials are supporting of the Holocaust
>story, why doesn't he just help Mr.Giwer. Just think, Giwer gets what
>he needs, posts something, giving Mr.Mittleman and any others the
>opportunity to come back with the heavy intellectual debunking of
>Giwers analysis.

    Because, Tommy, Giwer isn't interested in debating the Holocaust. 
    Giwer is a troll who is simply obfuscating the discussion here.  We
    know this from a number of things Giwer has posted in weaker moments. 
    For example:

    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    I have no desire to help Giwer railroad discussion.  I have no respect
    for Giwer as a human being.  I have no desire to have dialogue with
    Giwer.

    I also do not have personal access to the trial transcripts and I have
    no desire to do the legwork for him or anyone else who could do it just
    as easily as I could.

    That should be sufficient and rational reason.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 19:46:07 PDT 1996
Article: 65908 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: internet harrassment
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:25 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199615255352@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51f0h6$i7q@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <323C32DE.5345@ccnis.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323C32DE.5345@ccnis.net>, "Annie Alpert, OFB"  writes...
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>>         Have you or someone you can contact been subject to harrassment
>> outside of a newsgroup?  
> 
>Sure, I was sent a "white power" virus in an attached file not too long
>ago.  Add that to your list.

    And I mailbombed Nizkor about two months ago (Ken and Jamie can
    corroborate this).  So add that to your list.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 19:46:08 PDT 1996
Article: 65923 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 60
Distribution: world
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In article <323c295c.4270089@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>				
>	The Holocaust promotional network's pet word.

    Au contraire.  Tom Moran's manifesto is HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE.

    I offer as evidence for this the same evidence I offered the last time
    Tommy made this ridiculous assertion.  I note, in posting it all again
    below, that Tommy never refuted my assertion of his manifesto.  He
    simply declared he would not talk to me anymore.

    I assert again:  Tom Moran is a liar and a hate-filled bigot.

    Evidence for this can be pulled from almost all of Tommy's self written
    posts.  Towards that, I repost several previous responses to Tommy:

Date: 4 Jul 1996 12:34 MST
In Message-ID: <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> Tom Moran wrote:

         Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
         "Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
         Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.

    OK, here is another example:

In article <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>, 
tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>Who do these people think they are getting involved with the
>American education system? These are the same people who committ
>themselves to closing down Palestinian schools and universities. Their
>only motive is to introduce Zionist propaganda into our education
>systems. And here we have this element being accomodated by this goofy
>Nizkor and it's evident idiotic staff of McVay, McCarthy and Hilary,
>and the phantom directors that finance the site.  
>... 
>In the end they try to sell us on their rhetoric by citing that
>their archives are "Straight from print-outs of news papers" and
>"studies done by experts in this field". Some of these experts would
>be the likes of the ADL, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish
>Congress and any goyem lackies.
>... 
>The fact is, other than having governmental persons submitting to
>the pushy, bluster demands of the Jews, they are in it alone. Very
>few, if any goyem organizations are actively involved in supporting or
>endorsing any of their crap. The only thing they get is cowtowing from
>persons out to save their own positions so as not have the Jews
>conspire to unseat them. No one knows it more than the Jews
>themselves.
>... 
>Jeruselem One, located in the land that shoots down children,
>routs whole populations of civilians, bombs their camps, their
>villages, spits at the U.N., and then has a myriad in their "amen
>corner" here in the U.S. getting their stuff into the major medias
>telling us how right it all is.

    Moran went on to say I needed to show how each statement was filled
    with HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE.  I think it is self-evident, but if he
    wants me to do it again, all he need do is ask.



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 20:28:58 PDT 1996
Article: 65934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 15 Sep 1996 16:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 56
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In article <323c2a9c.4589697@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

    Looks as though I don't need to do much work to defend my Tom Moran's
    Manifesto is HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE thesis.  He is doing all the work
    for me.  Simply read this essay and decide for yourself if it is HATE
    HATE HATE HATE HATE, or something else.

>	During the American Revolution fighting took place for
>years. Over the plains and up the mountains, guns, cannons, fire and
>freezing cold. Men losing their arms, legs and lives. Sons and
>daughters losing fathers. Wives losing husbands. Friends dying
>together in mangled lumps. And when it was all over the United States
>stood before the world with its grand document like no other nation
>had ever seen before. The Constitution of the United states.
>	This quest for freedom is not something unique to the United
>States alone, it has been going on for millemnia. In ancient Greece
>and Rome, and before that, the struggle has been going on. The French
>Revolution the Magna Carta. Many fighters have died across the ages
>and the Constitution of the United States is the latest and most
>significant of the culmination this human struggle. We must recognize
>these ancient fighters as part of our heritage.
>	Now here we are, 200 and some years after the Revolution and
>thousands of years after the others with Simon Wiesenthals, ADLs and
>the like come latelies plying about our nation trying to undo it all.
>	Regardless of what the Jews will self proclaim about their place
>at the head of this human history of seeking justice and freedoms for
>the people, ancient Israel never had such freedoms for their own
>people under their own government, the truth lies in their two little
>books. And the history of their activity in the United States is well
>documented, tenacious to control our modes of communication, using it
>to sell us on Israel, their one and only allegiance. The little 2%
>putting out the 100% on how great they are.   
>	Its lucky we have the ACLU with the Jewish leadership out on the
>front lines defending us. Going to court, raising legal precedences,
>citing this and that, filing this, making a motion for that. Of course
>all this is prone to juggling by some magistrate before he or she
>makes a determination. One person, maybe two or three. One giving
>here, another giving there. This is the vulnerability of our freedoms
>if we should allow it to be a legal issue, dependant on the will and
>competancy of the miniscule.
>	The Constitution of the United States is a philosophical
>doctrine. It can not be left up to magistrates and senators to make
>amendments or set limits on the basic tenets as they have been doing
>with increasing frequency. The Constitution being a philosophical
>document should be left up to the national discussion. It has to be
>discussed in the same fashion that we would discuss any philosophy.
> 
> 
>	Some talk real democracy, others just use the word. 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 15 20:28:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: photo 7, Babi Yar
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
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In article <51hcn2$1gj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	After ridiculing the "geyers of blood" and the "fart eruption" stories about
>Babi Yar for so long I greatly appreciate seeing an aerial photo of the area
>just after the massacre was supposed to have happened.  
> 
>	It is as I expected.  There is not the slightest sign of anything ever having
>been disturbed in any manner.  It is clear the "witnesses" could not have seen
>what they reported as there is nothing out of the ordinary to be seen.  

    Giwer wrote in Message ID :<50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    For detailed and documented evidence of Giwer's trolling, please refer
    to http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    Giwer's usual response to people demonstrating him to be a troll is to
    try to harrass Ken McVay by posting what Giwer thinks is McVay's home
    address.  Usually he places it right here:


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:12 PDT 1996
Article: 65949 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,israel.jewstudies,alt.revisionism,alt.messianic,alt.fan.jesus-christ,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: the deciside charge aginst the jews
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:12 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 60
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199617120653@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <323ad103.7392026@news.pacificnet.net> <323c4034.10117899@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>         Could it be the word of god is subject to political and social
>>> correctness? 
>> 
>>WHAT AN ORIGINAL THOUGHT!!! I guess  NO ONE has EVER thought of this before.
> 
>	If anyone has ever thought of it before, it wasn't you.
> 
>>Since you seen to have discovered this all by yourself, I suggest you go
>>take a trip to the local library and read the 5 Gospels. Keep track of ALL
>>the contradictions -- especially the ones that relate to the intended
>>audience (ie. Gospels written for a Greek versus Roman audience).
> 
>	I don't have to go to the library. I have four or five Bibles on
>hand. I know of many contradictions. I have read the Bible, a number
>of times over the years - "Know thy enemy". 

    Are you anti-christian Tommy?  This is a new side of you we have never
    seen before!

>>Maybe you can tell me why Jesus is recorded as having three different
>>"last words"?
> 
>	For the same reason there are five different acounts of his
>Ressurection, verbally passed on fiction is more prone to being passed
>on with further distortions. Like lining up ten people, telling the
>first person something and asking them to tell the account to the next
>person, and by the time it gets to the end of the line, it's something
>totally diffferent than what started.
>	In the case of the biblical tales, it wasn't even this process as
>much as people sitting alone expanding fictionally on their own on
>some root rumor.
> 
>>Hmm... Maybe it's because it ISN'T the word of God at all, but the words
>>of people?
> 
>	Exactly, as I personally believe it. And then I think the Torah,
>"Old Testament", is childish fairy tale.
> 
>>Sheesh.
> 
>	If the world had the wits to grasp the output of the Greek
>masters instead of some childish Hebrew fiction, we might be better
>off today. They chose what they could comprehend, mythological
>superstition.
> 
>>Sara

    Wow!  If this wasn't signed up top as Moran, I'd swear this was Giwer's
    writing...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:13 PDT 1996
Article: 65950 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,israel.jewstudies,alt.revisionism,alt.messianic,alt.fan.jesus-christ,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: the deciside charge aginst the jews
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:13 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199617133588@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <323c4130.10369400@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>>	As to what is said now days, a new revised Bible has been
>>>published with all the references to Hebrew complicity deleted.
>>
>>Which edition is this, pray tell? What does it do with Matthew 27:25, 
>>to name one of the more notorious antisemites' proof-texts?
> 
>	Look it up. I forget the exact title. The latest version.

    Ah good.  This sounds more like the idiocy we get from the Tommy we
    know and love.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:14 PDT 1996
Article: 65952 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHY HITLER WAS WRONG!!! (was Re: Nazism v. Communism (was Re: Milton Kleim)
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:46 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199617465437@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <50siqs$fui@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <51hmli$69s@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <51hmli$69s@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, loki999@ix.netcom.com(Jean A Robards) writes...
> 
>   He only killed six million worthless kikes.  Not enough.

    Sorry Jean (almost certainly not your real name), but you are wrong. 
    Some of those "kikes" weren't worthless.  The SS pried gold fillings
    from their teeth after the gassings; that ought to have been worth
    something.

    If you are going to be an anti-semitic Nazi apologist, at least get
    your facts right.  Sheesh.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:15 PDT 1996
Article: 65962 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199621390914@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51eaui$lo8@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <51g8vg$2bj@news.enter.net> <51h298$1gj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <51i69r$98d@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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In article <51i69r$98d@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>  ... Whois Ken McVay? ...

    {yawn}

    Once again, thanks for the Nizkor advertisement, but you still don't
    have that address right.  The one you keep offering is a drop box which
    is only checked once a month.  The second address you offer has been
    bad for five years.  Please update your records to show that donations
    for the Project's efforts may be made payable to

          The Zikaron Society / Nizkor Project

    Please mail your cheque to

          The Zikaron Tolerance and Remembrance Society
          6540 East Hastings Street, Suite 221
          Burnaby, BC V5B 4Z5

    Canadian income tax receipts will be issued.

    [Correct American address for donations, is noted on 
    http://www.nizkor.org/funding.html]

    Nizkor thanks you, and, of course, Linda Thompson, and Mr.
    Grosvenor-Gruber-Acumen-Wahrheit, for the continuing reminder of the
    importance of public education, and your contributions to the
    continuing success of the Nizkor Project.

-- 
Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
nizkor@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:16 PDT 1996
Article: 65982 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Index
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:07 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199617073024@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323c3cef.9280402@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <323c3cef.9280402@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	This is a list of Moran's postings on alt.revisionism. These are
>the posts that Nizkor fears to include in it's dossier on Moran in a
>straight foward way.

    It is a lot of work to prepare and maintain the archives at Nizkor,
    Tommy.  And all that Nizkor has are voluntter workers.  However, if you
    would like to put together your own dossier for Nizkor, I am certain
    that Ken would be happy to include it.  Feel free to assemble your own
    writings in any way you deem to be "straight forward".  Put it together
    in either ascii or html.  Send it to Ken or send it to me and it will
    get placed in the permanent archives.

>	These are the "neo-Nazi" - "anti-Semitic" postings that have
>terrorized the Holocaust dependents. 

    I don't think you have it in you to "terrorize," zeyde.  I certainly
    have never felt terror from you.

>	Any of these posts are subject to reposting. Any reposts are
>given for the new comers to the group and are not aimed at those who
>have already read them. 

    Translation: I am going to keep posting this dribble in just the form
    it is and I am not going to take into account any of the rebuttals
    presented to me.

>	In order to avoid having to include any statement like "repost" I
>will post any new ones in solitary, and all reposts will be posted in
>clusters.	

    Yes, putting the work "repost" in the subject line (as Ken McVay does)
    would be too polite.  Tommy wont do it.

    [boring list of Tommy's subject lines deleted]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:17 PDT 1996
Article: 65985 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Revisionists Today are Winning on A.R.
Date: 15 Sep 1996 18:12 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 146
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199618125947@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51hrfi$ma3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes...
>People today are more suspicious than ever.
> 
>Conspiracy theories abound.  Movies such as "JFK" question the "official
>line" and present evidence of a cover-up.  People who were once dismissed
>as "conspiracy nuts" are now having the evidence for their theories heard,
>and believed, in the mainstream.

    {raising my hand} I plead guilty!  I used to be a JFK conspiracy nut
    and now I am in the mainstream.  {why is everyone looking at me funny?}

>Polls indicate an increasing distrust on the part of the people towards
>the government and the media. It is not an exaggeration to say that there
>is an increasing number of people in the nation today, far more than ever
>before, who believe they are being deliberately -lied- to.

    Poll citations please?  Oh, I forgot.  Stele never actually produces
    any data...

>JFK's assassination, The Gulf of Tonkin incident, Watergate, Iran-contra,
>Waco and Ruby Ridge, Hillary's commodities venture, Vincent Foster's
>suicide, and several others, collectively add up. The public is indeed
>more skeptical than ever of the "official line" that the government and
>the media tells them.

    Vince Foster's suicide, now there's a controversy.  {did someone cross
    post this to the Rush Limbaugh group or something?}

>Enter alt.revisionism.  

    OK, this is where I came in.  I was reading sci.skeptic {of all groups}
    about four years ago when Dan Gannon began to cross-post from
    alt.revisionism over there.  As I am a fairly devout skeptic, I got
    curious about what I was reading and drifted over to alt.revisionism to
    read more.  Initially I posted that I could be swayed either way and,
    as a skeptic and trained researcher, I wanted to see what worts of
    evidence each side could put forward.

    Time and again the archivists were able to defend the conventional view
    of the Holocaust with documentation, evidence, and citations to primary
    sources.  Few "revisionists" even attempted to compete by putting
    forward lucid, analytical, logical, and supported arguments.  The
    arguments of those few "revisionists" were easily shot down by the
    archivists.  It didn't take skeptical me long to realize which side
    could make its case.  And as time went on it became more clear that the
    only ones posting here on the denier side were anti-semites, crackpots,
    or individuals with significantly limited analyticial capacity.

>The Holocauster A-team continually posts the assertion that people won't
>believe revisionists because revisionism "sounds crazy."  

    Well, yes and no.  The revisionism presented in a.r to date does sound
    crazy {to loosely use the vernacular.}  More precisely, it does not
    hold up to scrutiny.  Now this does not preclude that some day some
    revisionist will come along and mine evidence which does hold up to
    scrutiny, but so far there is no evidence to suggest that will ever
    happen.

    In saying this I differentiate the deniers posing as revisionists in
    a.r from accredited historians who constantly revise the interpretation
    of history.

>Holocausters also believe that because there exists relatively few
>-consistent- revisionist posters, the Holocauster numerical advantage
>helps to discredit the revisionists. They also personally attack
>revisionists as a way to further discredit revisionism.

    I can't speak for all the archivists here {yes, I have become an
    archivist}, but I attack the deniers here (I prefer the term denier to
    revisionist as you guys are not engaging in historical revisionism, you
    are simply denying fact) to discredit the anti-semitism and hate they
    promote.  I am fully accepting of real historical revisionism when such
    historiography occurs.

    And I do note that there are very few Holocaust deniers.  But in noting
    that, I acknowledge that the quanity of denial is not associated with
    the veracity of the argument.

>However, since the population is growing increasingly distrustful, the
>lurker on alt.revisionism who actually reads the arguments against
>Holocaust is increasingly ready to believe that the Holocaust a Lie.

    I doubt it.  Any lurker who has reasonable analytic abilities and is
    not strongly prone to anti-semitism already will see that the denier
    arguments are bullshit.

>Even those of this increasingly distrustful who do not get even -that-
>far, and merely "browse" through the posts on the newsgroup, and merely
>notice the simple fact that there are people of intelligence who
>continually and vehemently insist the Holocaust is Lie --  that -alone- is
>enough to instill doubt about the Holocaust in a growing number of them. 

    I have noticed that the people of intelligence who make such assertions
    are extremely careful in what they say (Milt Kleim, and Greg Raven),
    disappear from a.r because they realize they cannot win an argument
    when they are essentially putting forward lies to advance a political
    cause (Ross Vicksell, Don Black, and Greg Raven), or leave the denial
    and/or neo-nazi movement entirely (Milt Kleim) as Holocaust denial is
    no place for an honest intelligent person to be.  The combination
    simply doesn't work.

>Indeed, the very fact that there is a newsgroup called "alt.revisionism"
>in the first place is alone enough to implant doubt in more and more
>people of the increasingly distrustful public, that the "Holocaust" ever
>happened. 

    Possibly.  But it has significant advantages for the archivists too.

>No matter how Holocausters' labor to discredit, smear, and refute
>revisionists, they cannot offset these dynamics. The very existence of
>arguments against the "Holocaust," the very existence of intelligent and
>persistent revisionists, the very existence of alt.revisionism itself, and
>existence of an increasingly distrustful public, together all contribute
>to generating more and more doubt, and these factors cannot be affected by
>-anything- the holocausters here say or do. These factors are not affected
>by the fact that there is a numerical of Holocausters who post, or by the
>content or rebuttals in their posts, or by their smearing and attacking of
>revisionists.  

    Luckily the assertions in this paragraph don't carry their own weight.

>In fact, the Holocauster tactics of smearing and malice and death-wishing
>towards Giwer and his family, probably contribute more fair-minded lurkers
>to view the holocausters with distaste, and revisionists with perhaps more
>sympathy -- if not credibility.

    You wish.  :>   Frankly, I doubt it.  You will occasionally win over
    people who are already anti-semitic or significantly disaffected with
    society.  I doubt there is anything the archivists could say here to
    prevent that.  The most intelligent ones (Kleim, for example) will
    eventually figure out for themselves what is going on.  The rest aren't
    smart enough for neo-naziism to get anywhere.

>Because of factors they have no control over and cannot offset, the most
>notable one being an increasingly skeptical and distrustful public,
>Holocausters on alt.revisionism today fight a losing battle.  

    You wish.  And the latest Gallup Poll figures show how many people
    think the Holocaust might not have happened?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:17 PDT 1996
Article: 65986 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer the White Courtesy Phone, Part IV
Date: 15 Sep 1996 18:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199618224896@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <51i1a5$ohq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes...
> 
>The internet is the death of the Holocaust.

    Fascinating philosphical statement.  I wonder, do you - deep down -
    think that the internet is the death of the Holocaust becuase you think
    the internet can be manipulated to obscure and defeat the truth, or is
    it becuase - deep down - you think that the Holocaust didn't happen and
    you think the internet will, in the end, ensure that the truth
    prevails?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:18 PDT 1996
Article: 65990 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer the White Courtesty Phone, Part III
Date: 15 Sep 1996 19:41 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 130
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199619414275@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <51i17m$oh9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes...
>Brian Harmon  wrote:
> 
>>Do you honestly think if i sailed into a university and
>>proclaimed that these events did not happen, i'd be 
>>treated with anything other than derision and disrespect?
> 
>You wouldn't be treated with derision and disrespect at all if you had
>counter-evidence against the Civil War.  At that point you would be

    And you wouldn't be treated with derision and disrespect if you had
    counter-evidence against the Holocaust that stood up to scrutiny.

    Do you?

>treated as a god and lauded for "setting the record straight." If one
>debunks the Holocaust, however, for SOME reason (gee, I wonder what that
>reason is?)  you are different totally different.

>>And if i then argued that Dresden was simply a German post 
>>war hoax, you believe people _wouldn't_ suspect i have
>>a chip on my shoulder against Germans?
> 
>The Jews prate about "eeeeevil Germans" continually, often accusing the
>German people as a whole. The Jews obviously have a chip on their shoulder

    Killing six million of any peoples tends to lead to those people having
    a "chip on their shoulder," as you say.

>against Germans yet Jews are never criticized for this or called "racist."

    But you are correct that Germans should not be hated in mass for the
    Holocaust, and Jews - and others - who do so are wrong IMHO.  In fact,
    counter to your assertion in the sentence above, I have previously
    stated this on more than one occasion in alt.revisionism.

>One is fully permitted (nay, encouraged) to hate Germans.  That was the
>purpose of the Holohoax Myth.  Yet if someone questions the "Holocaust"
>one is called "having a chip on their shoulder against Jews."  The
>hypocritical double standard never ends

    There is some truth to this double standard.  And when it occurs it is
    wrong.  It is too bad that some American-German youth who were subjected 
    to Nazi jokes and Hogan's Heroes jokes externalized their anger in a way
    that makes them totally irrational about the reality of the Holocaust. 
    In a way it is a mental illness, and in a way society as a whole - and
    Jewish components of it - are to blame.

>>Or even worse, if i argued that the Civil War and the whole
>>history of Slavery was simply a concoction of blacks to get
>>pity for their current siutation? 
> 
>>Do you see the racism inherent in that point of view, Kurt?
> 
>There is nothing inherently racist about scrutinizing the Holocaust Myth
>and ascertaining whatever is the Truth

    There is nothing racist about studying the historicity of the Holocaust
    as long as it is done objectively and honestly.  I have seen no
    evidence that the deniers who post here (or the revisionists they read)
    do that.  There, for example, have been numerous demonstrations of how
    Irving has misrepresented historical documents to pull information from
    them to support his theses.

>>[hint for folks playing along at home: _this_ is why we argue that
>> holocaust deniers are anti-semitic. ]
> 
>you claim revisionists are anti-semitic because your Myth is considered
>beyond scrutiny like Holy Writ

    No, I claim deniers are anti-semitic because it can be clearly
    demonstrated from the things they post here.  I never claim anyone to
    be anti-semitic if their own posts or writings do not bear out that
    claim.

>>Come on Kurt, use your noodle.
> 
>>I might add, however, that Holocaust denial is _not_ illegal
>>in the US, it is very much allowed. How do you think the IHR
>>and CODOH manage to continue operations, or the fact that
>>Arthur Butz has _not_ lost his job factor in on all this?
> 
>not illegal here (yet). They merely censor revisionism from the airwaves. 
>That way they can justify their censorship by claiming free market
>principles.  I would rather have the open censorship of Germany than the
>hypocritical sleazy plug-pulling of the media, who censors by prior
>restraint and is dominated by Jews, but who hides these facts. 

    So, go buy a TV station or a radio station, or a newspaper, or an
    internet host and make your own news.  And don't whine that the Jews
    control the money and/or the media.  There are only 2% Jews and there
    are a lot more "whites" (as you put it).  Figure out how to mobilize
    yourselves if you don't like the way things are going.  As Milt Kleim
    put it, quit blaming the Jews for yourshortcomings and look inward.

    BTW: please note that Nizkor (the the people here associated with it)
    have continually argued that deniers, anti-semites, neo-nazis, white
    power rangers, etc. should not be censored.  Also note that this
    argument does not extend to forcing other private businesses to air
    their views, nor does it extend to not attacking those views using the
    same open channels the parties mentioned above use.

>>[Some Jewish money-power conspiracy, to date, there is only
>> _one_ country where it is illegal to deny the holocaust. ]
> 
>Yeah, only one, that being the country that most needs freedom to
>ascertain the Truth.

    I agree that they shouldn't ban free speech.  But given what happened
    to them the last time the white power rangers got control there, I can
    understand their hesitancy.

>>So, one is certainly _allowed_ to deny the Holocaust, and
>>we're allowed to expose them as the loons that they are.
> 
>Prove "extermination with gas chambers."  You cannot.

    Virtually every historian in the world who has systematically looked at
    the Holocaust using conventional historiographical methods has
    concluded that gas chambers were used.  Does this make it fact?  No. 
    But it certainly does make it the null hypothesis.  So you go prove
    they weren't used.  (And if you don't understand what I am saying here,
    go read up on the positivist paradigm of knowledge and then come back
    and show me why this statement is unreasonable.)

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:19 PDT 1996
Article: 65993 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Real Reason Revisionism is Censored
Date: 15 Sep 1996 21:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 98
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199621233971@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51i2tc$pf5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51i2tc$pf5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes...
> 
>b- headed by Michael Eisner (jewish)
>c- the Walt Disney Picture group is headed by Joe Roth (jewish) and
>d- ...Miramax pictures, which is headed by the Weinstein brothers (jewish)
>e- ...ESPN, is headed by president and CEO Steven Bornstein (jewish).
>b- headed by CEO Michael Levin (jewish)
>...Time/Warner... (headed by Norman Pearlstine -- jewish)
>b)  [Viacom] Headed by Sumner Redstone (born Murray Rothstein -- jewish).  
>c)  ...Paramount pictures which is headed by Sherry Lansing (jewish)
>New World Entertainment ...is owned by Ronald Perelman (jewish) 
>5)  The chairman of New World is Brandon Tartikoff (jewish)
>7)  MCA and Universal Pictures ... Edgar Bronfman. (jewish)  
    (Edgar Bronfman is also president of the World Jewish Congress)
>Sony Corporation of America, is run by Michael Schulhof, a jew.  
    >Alan J. Levin, another jew heads the Sony Pictures division.
>a-  [NYTimes] ... headed by CEO Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, Jr. (jewish)
>b-  Executive editor is Max Frankel (jewish)
>c-  Managing editor is Joseph Lelyveld (jewish)
>a-  [Wasington Post] Headed by Katherine Meyer Graham (jewish).  
>b-  Her son Donald is The Washington Post's publisher (jewish).
>3)  [WSJ]... Owned by Dow Jones whose chair ...is Peter R. Kahn (jewish)
>a.  ...NY Daily News was bought from ...Robert Maxwell (born Ludvik Hoch -- jewish)
>by the real-estate developer Mortimer Zuckerman (jewish).  
    >The Village Voice is owned by Leonard Stern (jewish) 
>...Newhouse brothers (jewish).  
>1)  ABC:  by Leonard Goldenson (jewish)
>a-- executive producers of ABC news programs are all jewish:  Victor S.
>Neufeld (20/20), Bob Reichbloom (Good Morning America), and Rick Kaplan
>(World News Tonight)
>2)  CBS:  first by Willliam Paley (jewish) and then by Laurence Tisch
>(jewish)
>...Eric Ober (jewish) remains president of CBS News.
>3)  NBC: ...David Sarnoff and then by his son Robert Sarnoff (both jewish)
>a-- NBC is now owned by General Electric; however, the NBC news president
>is Andrew Lack (a jew) as are executive producers Jeff Zucker (Today),
>Jeff Gralnick (NBC Nightly News), and Neal Shapiro (Dateline).  
>Also, for several decades these networks have been staffed from top to
>bottom with jews.

    Etc. Etc.  The list goes on.

    I am fascinated by this list and have several questions.  Seeing from
    your other posts that you want to be taken seriously as a researcher -
    and purport to do good research work - I am very interested in the
    methods you have used in divining this list.

    1. Other than Bronfman, whom I believe you have amply demonstrated is
    Jewish, Spielberg, for whom I will accept it is popular knowledge he
    is Jewish, and the Ochs/Sulzberger family, which I know is Jewish from
    other reading I have done [Gay Talese, _The Kingdom and the Power_], 
    how do you know all these people are Jewish?

    Can you tell me the directory that lists these people's religions?  Or
    can you provide me with the citations of articles and such where these
    people's religions are demonstrated?  What was your methodology for
    determining the Jewishness of these people?  Moreover, which of the
    several definitions of Jew are you using to label these people as
    Jewish?  As you surely know, even rabbis debate who is and who isn't a
    Jew.

    2. For those on the list who are Jewish (and I imagine at least some of
    them are by the definition you surely have just provided me with 
    above), how do you know what kind of Jew they are?  For example,
    which ones are religious?  Which ones are Zionists?  Which ones are
    "godless communists"?  Which ones belong to Temples?  Which ones are
    Jewish by birth only, but claim to be something else?

    By what methodology have you determined this?

    3. For those in each category above, do you differentiate for how their 
    different forms of Jewishness may manifest itself in their work?  That
    is, does a "godless communist" Jew manipulate public opinion differently
    than a Zionist Jew?  Why or why not?

    By what methodology do you deterine this?

    4. How effective are these intended manipulations?  Do they always
    succeed?  Do different types of Jews have varying success at
    manipulating public opinion?  Can you provide examples where this
    manipulation has failed so that we can deconstruct it and see what the
    process was?  Or has it succeeded every time it has been tried?

    Is there any quantitative data which bears out your analysis?  If so,
    by what methodology was it obtained and analyzed?

    ---

    I am sure that your thoughtful and complete explanation of your methods
    will convince me that you are, in fact, a serious researcher of these
    matters and that your conclusions demand to be heard.  Please don't fail
    me.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:20 PDT 1996
Article: 66000 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How to Stop Jewish Destruction of Whites
Date: 15 Sep 1996 17:41 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 104
Distribution: world
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    Kurt Stele (which probably isn't his real name) once again demonstrates
    how little he knows about Jews by writing:

>The following article appears on the JDL webpage.  The JDL was voted the
>#1 voice of Judaism.  Here is the article:

    Note how objective this source is.  If you want an objective opinion of
    the JDL, go right to their web page!

    Also note that Stele has never supported his assertion that the JDL was
    voted the #1 voice of Judaism.  If one examines how JDL (and related)
    candidates have faired in Knesset elections over the years, one can put
    together an iron clad case that the JDL is *not* the #1 voice of
    Judaism.  Stele has no concept of this, though.

>-----begin-------
> 
>How to successfully stop Arab Terrorism in Israel
> 
>All Arabs Out of Israel Now!
> 
>The murders of so many Jewish men, women and children in Israel within the
>past few days have made it abundantly clear that there is no peace
>process. We fault the government of Israel for deluding the Jewish people
>-- in
>Israel and around the world -- into the belief that there can be peace
>with
>Arabs. Furthermore, this nation-state that would not protect its own
>people
>will be held responsible by G-d. It is more than ludicrous to run to Head
>Jew Killer Yasir Arafat and ask for him to stop his fellow Arabs from
>murdering Jews. His own PLO charter still claims all of Israel as
>Palestine.
> 
>More and more Israelis and Jews around the world are recognizing the fact
>that Rabbi Meir Kahane, of blessed memory, was correct in his call for the
>expulsion of ALL ARABS from the Land of Israel. There can be no peace with
>your sworn enemies living among you. They Must Go NOW!
> 
>Return to Israel Today & Always Table of Contents
> 
>Return to JDL Home Page
> 
>--------end---------

    The above sentiment is outrageous, IMHO.  It incites violence and is in
    the worst interest of Jews.  I consider this statement to be unfairly
    anti-Arab.  I might call it racist, but Jews aren't a race.

>The above was a resolution advocating the protection of Jewish people from
>the bad effects of Arabs.  Here is the same resolution, only this time it
>is written to protect White people from the bad effects of Jews.  

>How to Stop the Jewish Destruction of Whites
> 
>All Jews Out of White Lands Now!
> 
>The destruction or oppression of so many men, women and children of
>European descent within the last few centuries due to Jewish intrigue,
>Jewish communism, Jewish world war-instigation, Jewish cultural and moral
>subversion, financial exploitation, and now the legislative and media
>drive to dilute and dissolve the White race through multiculturalism and
>race-mixing propaganda, have made it abundantly clear that there can be no
>peaceful or healthful coexistence between Jews and Whites. We fault the
>government of formerly White lands for deluding the European people -- in
>Europe and around the world -- into the belief that there can be healthful
>coexistence with Jews.  Furthermore, this White race that would not
>protect its own people will be held responsible by G-d.  It is more than
>ludicrous to permit Jews to control our media and ask for him to stop
>their deliberate campaign of promoting White genocide by advocating
>race-mixing, miscegenation, and non-White flooding.  The Jews' own myth
>contends that they are the people "Chosen" to rule over the goyim like
>shepherds over sheep, and wish to destroy White pride in their own race,
>along with the White race itself. 
> 
>More and more Whites around the world are recognizing the fact
>that Henry Ford, Voltaire, Martin Luther, Queen Isabella, Richard Wagner,
>Napolean Bonaparte, Charles Lingberg, George Washington, Sir Francis
>Bacon, George Bernard Shaw, Franz Liszt, H.L. Mencken, and Hillaire Belloc
>of blessed memory, were all correct in their criticism of Jewish
>exploitation or calls for the expulsion of ALL JEWS from the Land of
>Europeans. There can be no peace with your sworn enemies living among you.
> 
>They Must Go NOW!
> 
>----------------

    The above sentiment is outrageous, IMHO.  It incites violence and is in
    the worst interest of whites.  I consider this statement to be
    anti-semitic.  Some might consider it racist (I still have trouble with
    the concept of race in this context.)

>If Jews can advocate protecting themselves from Arab harm, then surely
>Whites can do the same against Jewish harm, no?

    Hope you find me consistent in my denunciation of both statements.  May
    I end by saying I find you as reprehensible as Kahane, maybe worse.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 06:11:20 PDT 1996
Article: 66021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.mid.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, here's the directions you wanted..
Date: 14 Sep 1996 22:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <14SEP199622593399@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <50u1vf$9lk@viper.txdirect.net> <519ghn$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  
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In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes...
>In article <51f3p9$5c1@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
>>        Then why did Ken McVay call them?  
> 
>Is this a koan?  

    yes.

    "Then why did Ken McVay call them?
    Because he was checking on his sister's cat."

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 16 23:16:49 PDT 1996
Article: 66202 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel's air time.
Date: 16 Sep 1996 17:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
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In article <51ibuk$t6g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes...
> 
>>Golly, Kurt--Jews are a much more influential group in the US than
>>in Germany; and yet holocaust denial is censored in Germany, and not
>>in the US.  How can such a thing be?
> 
>The fact is, revisionism in America -is- censored, but instead of being
>done by the government it is done by the media. Censorship is censorship,
>whether done by the government or by media bosses.  

    If you redefine the meaning of words to suit your purpose you can make
    anything true.  If a private publication (or broadcaster) chooses not
    to present a piece of information that is not censorship, as the rest
    of the world defines censorship.  That is freedom of speech as
    exercised by a private publication or broadcaster.

>And holocausters denounce Nazis for censorship yet support censorship when
>done by the government (in Germany) or by the media.  It's pure hypocrisy.

    Which of the regular posters to alt.revisionism has written anything in
    support of Germany's censorship?  (And for that matter, have you been
    keeping track of how many of the regular posters have denounced it?)

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 03:36:38 PDT 1996
Article: 66233 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer the White Courtesy Phone, Part IV
Date: 16 Sep 1996 20:11 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 50
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16SEP199620112071@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323A9DB7.59E2@itsa.ucsf.edu> <51i1a5$ohq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <15SEP199618224896@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <51k2a1$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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In article <51k2a1$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	Since when is what has been culled by two historians out of the absurdities of
>Nuremberg considered the truth?  If anything, Nuremberg is the truth,
>absurdities and all.  Not the work of two people trying to make it less than
>laughable.  
> 
>	The "truth," as any historian will tell you, can not be determined until after
>the participants in events are dead.  That means there are 20-30 years to wait
>until there can be any truth openly published about the holocaust.  
> 
>	After all, one can not even suggest that crematoria do not mean gas chambers
>these days.  That is hardly a climate of open discussion.  

    Has Matt Giwer posted something that has you tweaked?  Are you
    thinking of spending time and energy responding to his troll?

    Then consider what he said in Message-ID
    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    But, in particular, reread the quote from him above and ask yourself,
    "do I really think it good use of my time to argue with this guy, or
    should I just ignore his outrageous statements?"  If you feel you must
    respond so that the novice reader is not fooled by him, consider
    clipping this post and using it as your reply. 


     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 03:36:38 PDT 1996
Article: 66235 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Followup-To: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Date: 16 Sep 1996 20:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16SEP199620291948@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50le5n$d5k@lex.zippo.com> <50ppn4$a8h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50r18l$c78@lex.zippo.com> <51jdlb$d2u@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:43530 alt.revisionism:66235

In article <51jdlb$d2u@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) writes...
>Capt. Peter Peachfuzz (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
>: 	Excuse me.  You claim the number has always been the same.  
>: Therefore prior to the revision the total was
>: 	4 million + others = 6 million
>: 	After the revision it was
>: 	1 million + others = 6 million
>: 	Please explain which of the "others" increased at the same time
>: Auschwitz decreased.  It is simple arithmetic.  The "others" has to
>: have increased by 3 million.  Which ones did?
> 
>Actually, the real question is just what Myshkin thinks he is accomplishing
>by reposting the same lie multiple times.  Does he really think that we'll
>suddenly lose our ability to refute it?

    [refutation deleted]

    No, Giwer realizes that he will be refuted.  He has other reasons for
    posting such obvious lies.  Consider what he said in Message-ID
    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 08:56:23 PDT 1996
Article: 66267 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: 16 Sep 1996 20:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16SEP199620420423@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323c2944.4245922@news.pacificnet.net> <15SEP199615463773@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <323d5a0c.1403004@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <323d5a0c.1403004@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>> Tommy is a coward who will not debate us.  He will simply
>> continue to repost his refuted rubbish to the web.
> 
>	What irks Mr.Mittleman about any of Moran's non responding, is
>that when Mr.Mittleman or anyone else posts something Moran thinks
>idiotic, he find it better to let it stand, in the nude, as self
>evident. As to responding to any serious attempt, the record is always
>here. 

    Huh?  In English this time...?

>	Mr.Mittleman is the one who says he "mostly" just posts "lame"
>sarcasms, not Moran.  

    I think I said "lame puns," but I could be wrong.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 08:56:24 PDT 1996
Article: 66270 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews:  Most Racist of Peoples
Date: 17 Sep 1996 04:40 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <17SEP199604402430@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51b70p$f9v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <323d6283.3570179@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <323d6283.3570179@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
> 
>	The Jews become so arrogant to the host society that they think
>they can say whatever they want, but in the end, they leave a record.
>In the case of the United States now playing the host, they have
>committed themselves to thousands of columns, letters to the editors,
>full, quarter and half page ads that tells it all.
> 
>	'We the Jews are the most brilliant and benevolent in the whole
>world. Arabs, Catholics, Muslims, well, everyone else is scum'. 

    Ah, anti-semitism at its finist.  And from a zeyde too!

    So, Tommy, how are your grandkids doing anyway?  Do you bring them up
    on your knee and tell them all these horrible Jewish "truths"?

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 08:56:25 PDT 1996
Article: 66273 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde.nde.swri.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: 17 Sep 1996 04:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <17SEP199604431954@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com> <50jrcm$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>  <50m9mi$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <51kh8l$n3c@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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In article <51kh8l$n3c@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 16 Sep 1996 11:33:36 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
> 
>>Capt. Peter Peachfuzz (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
>>[A few pointed questions deleted]
> 
>>: Yours are fewer but still my agreement with Netcom prohibits me from
>>: proving you an idiot in your questions.  
> 
>>I will confess that this is the first Usenet posting that has actually
>>succeeded in making me laugh out loud in several months.  Good work,
>>Myshkin.
> 
>	Now you know that cheap insults always lead to the following.
> 
>	Whois Ken McVay?

    So?  All it shows is that you have no substantive comeback to these
    posts.  And that it is still early enough in the evening that you
    remember how to clip in saved text.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 08:56:26 PDT 1996
Article: 66276 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NOMINATION: Tom Moran for KOTM
Date: 16 Sep 1996 17:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16SEP199617044254@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <51ikj6$ms9@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:

>: Oh, and views Jews don't like get censored. 

    Which explains Pat Buchanan's long tenure on CNN and PBS...  :>


     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 08:56:26 PDT 1996
Article: 66312 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Laugh of the Day (was: Re: WHY HITLER WAS WRONG!!!)
Date: 16 Sep 1996 17:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16SEP199617082191@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <50siqs$fui@freenet-news.carleton.ca> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:29865 alt.politics.white-power:43560 alt.revisionism:66312

In article , "Milton John Kleim, Jr."  writes...
>One imbecile by the name of Jean Robards wrote:
> 
>>   I am merely stating my views.Which are obiously much too extreme for 
>>a faggot ass jew boy like you

    Face it Milt, now that you are a mild mannered 'sensible' Aryan, you
    are just another "faggot ass jew boy" to the white power rangers out
    there who don't know you.  :>

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 10:22:07 PDT 1996
Article: 66354 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: USS Liberty:  Relevance to Alt.Revisionism
Date: 17 Sep 1996 04:25 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 57
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <17SEP199604254131@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51if39$1d9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <323d5c17.1926000@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    Hey, zeyde, since you are reposting everything under the sun these
    days, why don't you repost your "holocausterclonism" series.  You know
    the one, it was about how some people post simply to chime in agreement
    with others on their side without adding anything to the discusion.

    Like the following:

In article <323d5c17.1926000@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
> 
>>The reason why the USS Liberty and Qana are relevant to alt.revisionism is
>>because Jews are always complaining about disputed atrocities committed by
>>the Nazis. Yet -they- commit undisputed atrocities against other people
>>(which they call "mistakes" to conceal them).  
> 
>	Exactly.
> 
>>Jews constantly harp about supposed German atrocities. Yet when they
>>commit atrocities, they conceal them, and deny them.  It is lying. It is
>>hypocrisy.  
> 
>	Exactly.
> 
>>If Nazis committed deliberate atrocities, then Jews are no better than
>>Nazis because Jews commit atrocities themselves, both against American
>>servicemen and against Arabs.  What is more, Jews are actually worse
>>because they lie to conceal the atrocities.
> 
>	Exactly.
> 
>>Germans supposedly murdered so therefore Jews get millions of dollars
>>every year for "Holocaust" memorabiliia.  Yet Jews murder Arabs or U.S.
>>servicemen and there are no "Holocaust" remembrances, or museums, or one
>>Hollywood movie, yearly extractions of tax dollars.  There isn't even an
>>admission.  It is a blatant double standard.
> 
>	Exactly.
> 
>>Jews complain about being forcibly deported from German society yet Jews
>>forcibly removed Arabs from their lands and killed several thousands of
>>Arabs, to take their land.  More hypocrisy.  
> 
>	Exactly.
> 
>>The upshot of it is this:  Jewish hypocrisy has far too blamed other
>>peoples for the very things they do themselves.  It is a "Big Lie."  
> 
>	Exactly.
> 
>>Kurt Stele
> 

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 11:39:42 PDT 1996
Article: 66359 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.pfi.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the 1933 World Jewish Congress boycott of Germnay
Date: 15 Sep 1996 15:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15SEP199615390049@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51h506$1gj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <51h506$1gj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	There is one thing that has never been published that would cause
>Germany Jews to be innocent of the boycott against their own country,
>evidence that German representatives to the WJC fought against the
>boycott, denounced it when it passed and declared that they would not
>participate in it.  
> 
>	Of course that is not what happened.  

    Giwer wrote in <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    Giwer usually adds his incorrect clip of Ken McVay's address below as
    rebuttal.  Lets see if he does so this time...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
     (Under construction - permanently!)


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 17:40:10 PDT 1996
Article: 66448 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Acceptance makes truth
Date: 16 Sep 1996 20:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 53
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In article <51k29q$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	It is often suggested that because historians have looked at the holocaust and
>pronounced it true then it becomes the standard that must be negated.  That
>would appear a reasonable assumption on the surface ...

    That is, in fact, how science is done in the world today.

>	The facts are otherwise.  First, there are exactly two historians who have
>investigated and published on the holocaust.  (People like Wiesel and Hilberg
>are not historians.)  

    Giwer claims two historians.  Exactly.  Giwer is either very stupid or
    intentionally lying.  There have been over 1,000 books written on the
    Holocaust, many of them by historians.  Anyone can simply go to a card
    catalog in any public or university library (or search tem on the
    internet) and look up the subject heading "holocaust" to see that there
    are many many more than two books, again many of them written by
    historians.

    On top of this there hundreds to thousands of refereed journal articles
    and conference presentations on record about the Holocaust.

    Giwer is simply wrong.  And it is simple for anyone to verify this.

>	Second, they have not investigated the holocaust.  The basis for the holocaust
>is the Nuremberg trials.  What they have done is pick and choose from the
>Nuremberg record to construct a plausible holocaust from the absurdities of the
>Nuremberg record.  

    Giwer is wrong again.  A random sampling of these many books will show
    anyone that the Nuremburg trial record is a small part of the evidence
    for the Holocaust.

    Giwer is simply wrong.  And it is simple for anyone to verify this.

>	Thus we are not discussing the acceptance of the Nuremberg record but the story
>constructed from the record by those two historians.  The issue of "acceptance"
>as the null hypothesis is only the issue of the two versions of the holocaust
>that were constructed by these two people.  

    Given the error in all of Giwer's premises, this conclusion is
    meaningless.

>	As such this does not qualify as a null hypothesis.  Two people do not
>constitute a consensus of historians.  

    Same here.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 17 17:55:31 PDT 1996
Article: 66454 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does anyone have it?
Date: 16 Sep 1996 20:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 79
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References: <51eoji$i7q@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <323b5041.751374@news.pacificnet.net> <15SEP199607235248@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <51k2a8$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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In article <51k2a8$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 15 Sep 1996 17:19 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
> 
>>In article <323c413c.10382253@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>	Mr.Mittleman refuses to help adversary. If Mr.Mittleman thinks
>>>the records of the Nuremberg Trials are supporting of the Holocaust
>>>story, why doesn't he just help Mr.Giwer. Just think, Giwer gets what
>>>he needs, posts something, giving Mr.Mittleman and any others the
>>>opportunity to come back with the heavy intellectual debunking of
>>>Giwers analysis.
> 
>>    Because, Tommy, Giwer isn't interested in debating the Holocaust. 
>>    Giwer is a troll who is simply obfuscating the discussion here.  
> 
>	As you know, no one ever expected a discussion of the holocaust until I got
>here.  This is a well known flame conference and it is well known that the
>holohuggers start the flaming.  

    Actually, there were many less flames before Giwer got here.  In fact,
    several fidonet regulars have reported that this has been true in many
    conferences for a long time.  Giwer, apparently, is a troubled
    individual who shows up, causes trouble, and gets his jollies from it.

    If he's got now live otherwise, I guess its all he's got.  Kinda sad,
    but I have no desire to feed the habit.  Frankly I'd just as soon he go
    away (though he does contribute significantly to making the deniers
    look bad.)

>We
>>    know this from a number of things Giwer has posted in weaker moments. 
>>    For example:
> 
>>    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:
> 
>>         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
>>         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
>>         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
>>         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
>>         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  
> 
>>    I have no desire to help Giwer railroad discussion.  I have no respect
>>    for Giwer as a human being.  
> 
>	Such an ego.  Why would anyone care about your respect?  

    Fine.  I don't particularly care what Giwer things.

>>I have no desire to have dialogue with
>>    Giwer.
> 
>	Were you qualified to do so that might have some meaning.  

    Blah blah blah ...

>>    I also do not have personal access to the trial transcripts and I have
>>    no desire to do the legwork for him or anyone else who could do it just
>>    as easily as I could.
> 
>	But it appears I do have access to major parts of the IMT transcripts and pust
>them regularly.  Why is it you can not do what I have done?  Or perhaps you have
>and would rather not discuss it?  

    Huh?  Didn't I just say I don't have any interest in talking with Giwer
    as Giwer is a troll who is simply here to obfuscate?

>>    That should be sufficient and rational reason.
> 
>	For not dealing with the transcript excerpts I have posted?  

    Yeah, right.  Whatever.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 00:03:37 PDT 1996
Article: 67215 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: 20 Sep 1996 21:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 47
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References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50le5n$d5k@lex.zippo.com> <50ppn4$a8h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50r18l$c78@lex.zippo.com> <51puqe$cu7@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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In article <51puqe$cu7@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 16 Sep 1996 20:29 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
> 
>>    ...Giwer realizes that he will be refuted.  He has other reasons for
>>    posting such obvious lies.  Consider what he said in Message-ID
>>    <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:
> 
>>         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
>>         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
>>         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
>>         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
>>         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  
> 
>>    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
>>    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
>>    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
>>    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
>>    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
>>    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
>>    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
>>    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 
> 
>>    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>>    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
>>    various subdirectories beneath this.
> 
>	The holohuggers are getting rather desparate here.  

    You are projecting again Giwer.  I understand from the giwer-l listserv
    that while I was out of town this week (being a DoD contractor of all
    things :> ) that you were whining about no one answering your last
    dozen or so new topics.

    People have caught on to you Giwer.  It is obvious from your own words
    above that you are a manipulative individual.  No one is scared of you
    or your arguments, but there is no point in debating you.

    Alec says that you have been kicked off every other board you have been
    on.  This must be like hell for you being shown up for what you really
    are but not being able to be kicked off of here.  Pitiful really.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 09:50:51 PDT 1996
Article: 67313 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Unitied States sailors got what they deserved.
Date: 20 Sep 1996 21:00 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
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(tom moran) writes...
>(Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>(tom moran) wrote:

>>> I'd ask him myself, but I can't ever make out what he posts. Its
>>> like being in a car at night, during a rainstorm, doing 60 miles an
>>> hour, with no headlights and windshield wipers.
>>
>>Try pulling your head out of your anti-Semitic ass, Moran. You'll be
>>suprised at the difference it makes.
> 
>	Thanks for the confirmation.

    What?  You were unsure you were an anti-semite or you were unsure your
    head was up your ass?

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 09:50:51 PDT 1996
Article: 67320 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.hotstar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: no response?
Date: 20 Sep 1996 21:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 37
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    Ah, yes.  Found the message.

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>>         In the last two days I have posted twenty or so messages contrary to the
>> holocaust myth and not one response from he holohuggers.

    That may well be because of what you posted circa September 6 in
    Message-ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

    Why would anyone be so foolish as to engage Giwer in debate after that
    post?

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    But, in particular, reread the quote from him above and ask yourself,
    "do I really think it good use of my time to argue with this guy, or
    should I just ignore his outrageous statements?"  If you feel you must
    respond so that the novice reader is not fooled by him, consider
    clipping this post and using it as your reply. 


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 16:14:53 PDT 1996
Article: 67416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.europe,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's plans to deport Danish citizens
Date: 21 Sep 1996 12:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
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>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
> 
>## How about white Europeans who have adopted Islam or Buddhism?
>## Can they stay?
> 
># Yes.

    And what about the white Europeans who have adopted Judaism?  Can they
    stay?  What about the ones who adopted it several generations ago?

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 16:38:57 PDT 1996
Article: 67418 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 99% of the story, 99% wacked out
Date: 21 Sep 1996 12:18 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
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References: <324162a6.1655714@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <324162a6.1655714@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	As becomes evident on studying the validity of the Holocaust
>story, 99% of it is told by eyewitness testimony.

    That is untrue.  Feel free to make me look like a fool by showing your
    work as to how you arrived at the 99% figure.  I'll bet you a $100
    donation to the IHR that you can't put together a logical defense of
    the 99% figure which withstands critique.

>	When reviewing eyewitness accounts, it becomes evident that 99%
>of these testimonies are wacked out. 

    That is untrue.  Feel free to make me look like a fool by showing your
    work as to how you arrived at the 99% figure.  I'll bet you a $100
    donation to the IHR that you can't put together a logical defense of
    the 99% figure which withstands critique.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 17:29:52 PDT 1996
Article: 67421 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: And the - real ashes?
Date: 21 Sep 1996 12:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199612224230@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <323ac4c2.4255094@news.pacificnet.net>  <323d61f0.3423090@news.pacificnet.net> <51rogu$nut@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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In article <51rogu$nut@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, the local troll
who pretends he is posting from Netcom wrote:
>On 16 Sep 1996 19:11:23 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>anderson) wrote:
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
> 
>>: 	Oh no. Not a U R L. Not that.
>>: 	Okay Mr.VanAlstine, you got me.
>>: 	But wait a minute. Why don't you just post it? 
> 
>>Because it's on Nizkor, where anybody who wants to can look at it.  
>>There's no reason to waste space on this newsgroup by posting it.
>>Nobody who's interested will have any problem finding it.
>>Except, of course, those few poor souls out there who's rigiis 
>>won't scroll sideways...
> 
>	And, as noted, it inflates the hit count so as to impress contributors.  It is a
>minor misrepresentation for the unwary but that is what it is.  

    Of course the troll fails to acknowledge that the hit count is the same
    wether Bill Anderson gets the article and posts it or Tom Moran goes
    there and reads it.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 17:29:53 PDT 1996
Article: 67422 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: 21 Sep 1996 12:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199612245623@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <322eef53.5469925@news.pacificnet.net> <323d5675.483999@news.pacificnet.net> <51l5tt$lsl@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
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In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article <51q4r1$cu7@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
>And while we're at it, WHY does Mr. Giwer pretend he is still with netcom,
>when it is obvious that they have dumped his sorry ass?
> 
>51q4r1$cu7@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net
> 
>is NOT a netcom account.

    Which raises the ethical question: is it appropraite to clue
    worldnet.att.net in on the fact that Giwer has been booted from at
    least his two previous providers due to his posting habits, or is it
    better to let worldnet.att.net find out for itself when Giwer next
    loses control?

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 17:29:54 PDT 1996
Article: 67423 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran the Bigot
Date: 21 Sep 1996 12:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199612290010@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <324012ea.559740@news.pacificnet.net> <51q3t0$n1j@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>  	I don't "wonder" why you ("we") call me "anti-Semite".
>  It's because you can't come up with anything else.

    Actually, your articles are rebutted on a fairly regualr basis, but you
    seem to have a policy of ignoring those rebuttals.  So, in fact, we are
    [1] rebutting most everything significant you say, and [2] calling you
    a liar, a fool, and - yes - an anti-semite.

    Since you have no desire to defend your anti-semitic ravings in debate,
    what are you going to do about all this?

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 21 18:45:28 PDT 1996
Article: 67465 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.inforamp.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust tyranny
Date: 21 Sep 1996 12:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
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References: <32415e43.532827@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <32415e43.532827@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	Or, Disagreeable Words for the ADL, Simon Wiesenthal and Co.
>                 ==============================

>	"Liberty of speech, inviteth and provoketh liberty to be used
>again, and so bringeth much to a man's knowledge."
>                                            Francis Bacon
> 
>	"The most beautiful thing in the world is freedom of speech."
>                                            Diogenes
> 
>	"To speaketh his thoughts is every freeman's right, in peace and
>war, in council and in fight."
>                                            Homer
> 
>	"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
>your right to say it."
>                                            Voltaire
> 
>	Freedom of Speech is the enemy of the totalitarian Holocaust lie.
>                                            Moran

    Why then, Tommy, do you think that every regular poster here who is in
    any way associated with Nizkor has denounced any and all actions by
    American, Canadian, German and other governments to limit freedom of
    speech regarding the Holocaust?

    You never seem to address this question in between your posting of
    illogical rants about freedom of speech.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 00:08:55 PDT 1996
Article: 67498 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Nizkor on Stele and Giwer - undocumented accusation?
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Date: 21 Sep 1996 16:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:67498 alt.politics.nationalism.white:30582 alt.politics.white-power:44110

In article <51s02a$6pj@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...

>Certainly Stele is more lucid than Giwer, and makes fewer grammatical
>and spelling mistakes--but has anyone ever seen them together?
> 
>"Kurt Stele," by the way, seems to have vanished--thirty days exactly
>after he turned up on AOL. Presumably, he'll pop up under another name
>when his next copy of PC Week arrives.

    Rats.  And just after I laid out a set of research questions for Stele
    to address so he could demonstrate he was a serious researcher.  Well,
    I guess those questions never will be answered now.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 00:08:56 PDT 1996
Article: 67517 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.misty.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Acceptance makes truth
Date: 21 Sep 1996 17:21 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 76
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199617210174@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51k29q$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <16SEP199620030124@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <51s4ba$bkh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51s4ba$bkh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 16 Sep 1996 20:03 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
>>In article <51k29q$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>...The facts are otherwise.  First, there are exactly two historians who have
>>>investigated and published on the holocaust.  (People like Wiesel and Hilberg
>>>are not historians.)  
> 
>>    Giwer claims two historians.  Exactly.  Giwer is either very stupid or
>>    intentionally lying.  There have been over 1,000 books written on the
>>    Holocaust, many of them by historians.  Anyone can simply go to a card
>>    catalog in any public or university library (or search tem on the
>>    internet) and look up the subject heading "holocaust" to see that there
>>    are many many more than two books, again many of them written by
>>    historians.
> 
>>    On top of this there hundreds to thousands of refereed journal articles
>>    and conference presentations on record about the Holocaust.
> 
>>    Giwer is simply wrong.  And it is simple for anyone to verify this.
> 
>	Name THREE historians with their degree credentials.  Take all the screens you
>need.  

    I started off to do this, but decided it is a red herring and a waste
    of my time.  It is a stupid assertion and can be refuted simply by
    looking at any discussion of the historiography of the Holocaust.  For
    example, peruse: Dawidowicz, Lucy S. _The Holocaust and the
    Historians_, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1981.

    If the troll doesn't like this response, tough.

>>>	Second, they have not investigated the holocaust.  The basis for the holocaust
>>>is the Nuremberg trials.  

    The troll might want to compare stories with his flunky Moran who has
    been insisting that the historiogrpahy of the Holocaust is 99% survivor
    testimony.

    >>>What they have done is pick and choose from the
>>>Nuremberg record to construct a plausible holocaust from the absurdities of the
>>>Nuremberg record.  

    This, of course, is not true.  There is a vast amount of physical
    evidence, Nazi documentation, Nazi testimony, German and Axis
    testimony, Allied testimony, and survivor testimony completely
    independent of what was presented at Nuremberg.

    And anyone wondering why I don't take this troll (or his ravings) more
    seriously might consider that about two weeks ago he posted:

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  
              - message ID <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 00:08:57 PDT 1996
Article: 67518 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Topf and Sons, all round geniuses
Date: 21 Sep 1996 17:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199617454607@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51sr0a$f6o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3242ab4d.2445315@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <3242ab4d.2445315@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
>>	How dumb holohuggers can be when they really work hard at it.
> 
>	Now how dumb can you get. Giwer thinks the Holocaust dependents
>have to "work hard" at being dumb, when it comes naturally, perhaps
>inately. Of course the ethnocentric indoctrination that leads to their
>mental state is a arduous and life long procedure. 

    ... and Tom knows dumb.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 00:08:57 PDT 1996
Article: 67530 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele, Please Answer the White Courtesy Phone, Part IV
Date: 21 Sep 1996 17:31 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199617310297@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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    The troll writes:
>>  Science is not about creating the plausible explanation.  It is about 
>>  getting it right.

    180 degrees incorrect.  Go read some Popper and get back to me when you
    have a clue of what science is.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 07:51:51 PDT 1996
Article: 67582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Acceptance makes truth
Date: 21 Sep 1996 22:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199622443143@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51k29q$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <16SEP199620030124@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> 
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In article , rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) writes...
>In article <51uio4$g40@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> Troll Giwer,
>posting from (mgiwer@worldnet.att.net) because Netcom remove his
>joo-hating carcass from their servers, wrote: 
> 
>MG: Name THREE historians with their degree credentials.  
> 
>WA: That's ALL?  You want three historians who've investigated and published
>WA: on the Holocaust?  That's it?
> 
>WA: Listen, Matt--I gotta ask you something.  Are you some kind of masochist,
>WA: to be making a challenge like this?  Because I have to tell you, this
>WA: is going to be the easiest thing I've done all day...
> 
>WA: Okay, I'm back.  Took about fifteen minutes in the reference section
>WA: of the library where I work:
> 
>WA: 1) Christopher R. Browning, Ph.D. University of Wisconsin-Madison, 
>WA:    1975.  Professor of History, Pacific Lutheran University, Tacoma,
>WA:    Washington.  Author:  _The Path to Genocide_, Cambridge University
>WA:    Press, 1992.
> 
>MG: Degree in what field? 
> 
>Apparently, Giwer, your troll brain has a number of lesions, because it
>clearly says that Chris Browning, PhD, is a professor in History, as it
>does for the other authors Mr. Anderson listed.

    Further, when debating me several months back, the troll pointed out
    that my degree didn't matter; what mattered is what I do.  Well Dr.
    Browning does history.  :>

>I'd say that you are a lying piece of garbage, but then you already knew
>that, as does, I am sure, everybody else. However, for those who do not
>yet know this for a fact, I urge you to seek confirmation - please examine
>the copious documentation available at:
> 
>   
> 
>[incoherent Giwer .sig deleted]

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 07:51:52 PDT 1996
Article: 67584 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Acceptance makes truth
Date: 21 Sep 1996 16:56 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 65
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199616564528@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51k29q$89q@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <51keks$1g2@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <51s37g$bkh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In <51s37g$bkh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, troll@worldnet.att.new writes...
>On 16 Sep 1996 20:51:40 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
>wrote:
>>Troll (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: 	It is often suggested that because historians have looked at 
>>: the holocaust and pronounced it true then it becomes the standard that 
>>: must be negated.  That would appear a reasonable assumption on the 
>>: surface and of course that is the purpose of a fallacy, to appear 
>>: reasonable. 
> 
>>: 	The facts are otherwise.  First, there are exactly two historians 
>>: who have investigated and published on the holocaust.  
> 
>>Matt, do you just make this stuff up as you go along?  Why are there
>>over two hundred contributers listed in the _Encyclopedia of the 
>>Holocaust_?  Why does my library have on it's shelves three fat 
>>bibliographies on the Holocaust, jam-packed with books and articles
>>by historians?

    There is no point in debating the troll.  He cares not to gain
    knowledge, he is simply disruptive (as evidenced below).  Any lurker
    can see there are many more than two Holocaust historians by perusing a
    discussion of Holocaust historiography such as:

         Lucy Dawidowicz, _The Holocaust and the Historians_,
         Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1981.  (ISBN
         0674405668)

    or by simply visiting any library card catalog.

    Evidence Giwer is a troll includes: 

         "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. 
         That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the
         idiocies of the holohuggers.  I will post just enough to you
         folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time
         wasted.  I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish."  

                   - message id <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>

    Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in
    causing fights.  While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what
    has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
    document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
    refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
    engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such
    complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems
    counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. 

    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the
    various subdirectories beneath this.

    But, in particular, reread the quote from him above and ask yourself,
    "do I really think it good use of my time to argue with this guy, or
    should I just ignore his outrageous statements?"  If you feel you must
    respond so that the novice reader is not fooled by him, consider
    clipping this post and using it as your reply. 


     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 07:51:53 PDT 1996
Article: 67609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holohuggers reveal themselves
Date: 21 Sep 1996 17:49 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199617490929@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51ukhe$g40@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In <51ukhe$g40@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, the troll writes...
>The holohuggers have, to a critter, sided with the murderous Israelis, against
>the Americans they murdered.  

    Actually, no.  Most everyone here has said the same thing the US
    government said: it was an unfortunate accident.

>Now we know what traitors they really are.  
>If there was ever any doubt, we know where their loyalties lie.  
>Their loyalties lie with the murdering jews in Isreal.

    ... "but I am not an anti-semite"

    [anti-semitic .sig deleted]  

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 07:51:54 PDT 1996
Article: 67616 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fatbroad T-shirt
Date: 21 Sep 1996 12:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199612091789@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51rtd6$674@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <51siia$bhf@news.enter.net> <51tgcu$lpi@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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In article <51tgcu$lpi@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>	It matters not that what I say is acceptable to holohuggers.
> 
>	The fact that matters is that what I say is dominant.  

    Doesn't it just tweak you that we all came down to Tampa, got real
    drunk, and didn't invite you along?  Nu?

    It matters not.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 07:51:55 PDT 1996
Article: 67618 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.hotstar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: 21 Sep 1996 11:53 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
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    In article <3240bda6.44267133@news.pacificnet.net>,  (tom moran) wrote
    to Marty Kelley regarding Deborah Lipstadts's NY Times letter to the
    editor:

>	I read this over and all I can say is Mr.Kelley should turn it
>over to his class and see if they can figure it out.
>	The only comment I would care to make on it at this time is that
>any reader should take special note of all the capitalized stressed
>words.
>	I really hate it when they do this. It gives their stuff such
>authority and validity. Stressing the words is a powerful literary
>tool. It really gets the point across.

    I am sorry, Marty.  You want "argumentation" which is the next door
    down the hall.  This is "getting hit on the head lessons" here. 

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/

    [Note to Tommy: this is more Python you won't get.]


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 10:01:59 PDT 1996
Article: 67645 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2
Date: 21 Sep 1996 17:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

    Silly Rabbi,

>The holocaust is for kids.  

    Sheesh.  :>

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Sep 22 10:01:59 PDT 1996
Article: 67651 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Topf and Sons, all round geniuses
Date: 22 Sep 1996 06:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <22SEP199606441880@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51sr0a$f6o@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3242ab4d.2445315@news.pacificnet.net> <51vm69$n98@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <51vm69$n98@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>	
>: 	On similar bullshit the "persecuted" Adam Smith is honored in 
>: death even though he lead an armed revolution in Navoo and died because 
>: it failed.  The fanatic whackos retreated to Utah as the fanatic whacko 
>: jews retreated to Palestine.  
> 
>Hoo, boy!  You heard it here first, folks--Adam Smith chucked his
>dusty old economics books, head for the open plains, and founded 
>the Mormon religion.  It's a little known fact--even more astounding
>because he was forty years dead when he did it.  

    No, troll, it was Capt. John Smith who left the Mayflower seeking
    religious freedom who took his followers to Utah.  Get it right,
    sheesh!  Oh, and he built up the population by putting forth the
    decree, "Bring'em Young."

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 07:45:42 PDT 1996
Article: 67887 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zen Buddha SAYS
Date: 22 Sep 1996 06:38 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <22SEP199606380797@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51qh31$m8r@juliana.sprynet.com> <51vkm5$n98@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <51vkm5$n98@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>: Zen Buddha says:  If you are seeking for the truth, look for a lie...and
>: that's why revisionists are here:  we are seeking the truth.
> 
>Who is "Zen Buddha," please?

    One of the Buddha brothers.  You remember: LeRoy, Moishe, and Zen. 
    They played Vaudville in the '30s.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 07:45:44 PDT 1996
Article: 67929 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fatbroad T-shirt
Date: 21 Sep 1996 12:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21SEP199612015666@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:   <517ogk$bqg@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <323ff81d.818876@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <323ff81d.818876@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
>>Gordon McFee asks:
>>
>>"How can one understand the FBTS when no one is allowed to see it?  
>>Just see if you get a DTTS."
>>
>>The FBTS may be seen, worn by Fatbroad herself, on her home
>>page (where else?), http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad/ -
>>therefore, Sir, your statement that "no one is allowed two see
>>it" is demonstrably incorrect.
>>
>>Even _without_ FBs homepage, I submit that there are at least
>>a dozen-and-a-half readers here who have, in fact, seen the
>>legendary FBTS in person. That YOU have not seen it is of
>>interest only to those marginal historians who know nothing
>>about Fatbroads. 
>>
>>Had you come to Tampa, you might have seen one, but you know that.
>>
>>Sieg ZOG.
> 
>	Could it be that Mr.McVay, "Director" of the righteous and pure
>Holocaust anti-Hate website Nizkor, advocates and practices the
>ridicule and hate of obese people?

    Tommy, its an inside joke and you don't even get the outside jokes. 
    Why don't you subscribe to the giwer-l listserv and see for yourself. 
    :>

    By the way, it was the fat broads themselves who came to Tampa iwth the
    FBTS.  It was their own joke.  I know, I was one of the dozen and a
    half who saw it.  Very funny too (except for the Giwer mask, ugh!)

      daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 07:45:45 PDT 1996
Article: 67933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: 22 Sep 1996 22:02 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <22SEP199622023927@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <3243691e.6417162@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>Marty Kelley  wrote:
> 
> 
>>In other words, Mr. Moran completely ignores the content of my post, only
>>to complain about a stylistic device I used all of eight times in twelve 
>>screens, worth of text.  Tell you what, Mr. Moran: I'll re-post the entire
>>thing with the caps and underlinings (except to indicate
>>publication titles) removed, and then perhaps you can address my
>>substantive points about the serious flaws in your logic.  Fair enough?
> 
>	Don't bother. Feel comfortable with what you gave. If you think
>you made your point and I didn't, so be it. The record is there for
>whoever.

    "whomever"


     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 13:03:02 PDT 1996
Article: 68039 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: USS Liberty: Interview with a Surviving Marine
Date: 23 Sep 1996 10:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23SEP199610272028@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <51uhig$g40@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:49:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>## The "deliberate attack" theory is a myth, just like the
>>## myth that the Israeli pilots were heard talking in
>>## English (!!), and telling each other "why were we
>>## ordered to attack an American ship?".
> 
>># You expected them to speak Hebrew?  Yiddish?
> 
>>Hebrew, of course. You're really crazy to think IDF pilots
>>will be speaking in English?
> 
>	And you are very, very ignorant if you think one person in a hundred in Israel
>speaks Hebrew beyond Torah reading.  Hebrew died out as a living language more
>than two thousand years ago.  

    Heh.  And the hundreds of thousands of people who buy Hebrew language
    newspapers everyday buy them for the pictures...

    BTW: Does anybody have a canonical list of Giwer stupidities?  Its
    tough to keep track without a program.


     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 13:03:03 PDT 1996
Article: 68067 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA, there, gone, there again
Date: 23 Sep 1996 10:06 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23SEP199610061063@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <32441875.2263404@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <32441875.2263404@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>			
>	For anyone who wants to check out what the Holocaust story has as
>evidence for this camp being an extermination facility check out
>Nizkor. (Nizkor > ftp > treblinka)

    zeyde, you have been here over a year and you still haven't learned how
    to present a URL.  Get with the program!

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 14:58:11 PDT 1996
Article: 68097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goyim are scum
Date: 23 Sep 1996 10:17 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
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In article <3242af9b.3546836@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	So sayeth the Torah and the Talmud.

    But when he was asked just where they say this, he hemmed and hawwed
    and never really answered.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 15:49:03 PDT 1996
Article: 68115 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: holohugging traitors
Date: 23 Sep 1996 10:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23SEP199610152908@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51caqf$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <51l7cv$lsl@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <51u8br$gjs@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <51u8br$gjs@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
>: 	I would only execute murderers like McNamara and all of the         
>: 	IDF in 1967 as a minimum.  
> 
>People Matt wants to execute (so far):
> 
>1. Robert McNamara
> 
>2. Everybody who was a member of the Israeli Defense Force in 1967
> 
>3. Danny Keren
> 
>4. Joel Rosenberg
> 
>5. Any Jew who supports Israel
> 
>6. Anybody who thinks he's an antisemite
> 
>See why people think you're a nut, Matt?

    7. People who think he is a nut.

    8. People who call him paranoid.


     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 21:35:48 PDT 1996
Article: 68163 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zen Buddha SAYS
Date: 23 Sep 1996 10:34 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 51
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23SEP199610341897@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <51qh31$m8r@juliana.sprynet.com>  <51ulmo$g40@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <51ulmo$g40@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, the troll writes...
    >On Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:03:54 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K.
>Gandhi) wrote:
> 
>>In a recent email, later posted to the Usenet, you made the following claim
>>about the SWC:
> 
>>"What do you say to the fact that many Jewish publications also quoted
>>this 4,000,000 figure for YEARS until the research made primarily by
>>revisionist scholars embarrassed the hell out of them.  Why did the Simon
>>Wiesenthal Center keep silent on this figure until recently?  Could MONEY
>>have anything to do with it?"
> 
>>You have yet to answer the following questions without prevarication:
> 
>>(1) why you made a baseless accusation as documented above regarding the SWC
>>(2) where is the proof for the following:
>>   (a) that the SWC  promoted the figure of 4 million knowing it was wrong
>>   (b) that this was done for money
>>(3) when you can't provide that proof, he is requested to revist part
>>1 and supply the truth.

    The troll is non-responsive in posting:

>"No matter how many books are written or briefs filed, no matter how finely the
>lawyers analyzed it, the crime for which the Nazis were tried had never been
>formalized as a crime with the definiteness required by our legal standards, nor
>outlawed with a death penalty by the international community. By our standards
>that crime arose under an ex post facto law. Goering et al deserved severe
>punishment. But their guilt did not justify us in substituting power for
>principle."
> 
>--U.S. Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas 
>Kennedy, Profiles in Courage p.190. 
> 
>	I would say it is good company to be wrong with.  

    [to paraphrase a VP debate:]

    We all know about William O. Douglas.
    William O. Douglas was a great jurist.
    William O. Douglas was a great American.
    You are no William O. Douglas.

    And you haven't answered any of the questions put to you above.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 21:35:49 PDT 1996
Article: 68179 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some Holocaust Facts
Date: 23 Sep 1996 10:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23SEP199610081972@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <32441893.2292569@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <32441893.2292569@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>                             [repost]
> 
>	Anywhere from 600,000 to 4 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

    Anywhere from 700,000 to 1.5 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. 
    All historians who have investigated the matter have come up with
    numbers within this range.

>	The total number of people to have been exterminated by the Nazis
>during the WWII period is 10 million, 11 million or 12 million.

    Agreed.

    At least you got this right.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 23:07:30 PDT 1996
Article: 68199 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS
Date: 23 Sep 1996 09:54 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
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References: <3244184f.2224846@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3244184f.2224846@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	This is a list of various claims by the Holocaust story. As the

    "_BY_ the Holocaust story"?  Get with it, zeyde.

>accounts suggest, some real wacky decisions and acts took place by the
>Germans. 

    "wacky"?  Only if you learned your history by watching Hogan's Heroes.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 23 23:07:31 PDT 1996
Article: 68201 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: 23 Sep 1996 10:05 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 94
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23SEP199610051236@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3244185d.2238743@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3244185d.2238743@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
>"eyewitness" accounts of what they saw.

    Giwer says it is mostly supported by Nuremburg trial transcripts. 
    Which is it?

    [NB: you are both wrong]

>	UFO stories are largely based on "eyewitness" accounts of what
>they saw.

    Yup, they are.

>	The Holocaust story is supported by survivor testimony.

    Yup it is, along with lots of physical documentation, Nazi testimony,
    original documents, and neutral party testimony.

>	UFO stories now number over hundreds of survivor accounts of
>being taken on board a alien spacecraft and subjected to medical
>experiments.

    Yup, and all they have are "survivor" accounts.  Nothing more.

>	The Holocaust story relies on physical evidence, such as a door
>from a gas chamber, some brick ovens in a Holocaust museum, a pile of
>shoes or an empty can of Zyklon B.

    Yes, and lots more.

>	UFO stories pose physical evidence also, like a wound someone
>says they got from a ordeal encounter with aliens' a piece of metal
>said to come from a UFO crash and even the Great Pyramides of Egypt.

    Saying a wound came from an alien encounter is testimony.  All of the
    metal found so far is native to the earth.  No one has shown a
    compelling link between UFOs and the pyramids.

>	The Holocaust presents some photos, such as a ruin said to have
>been a gas chamber, or people standing by rail cars and said to be
>undergoing selection for gas chambers. 

    Yes.  There are photos.  Lots of them.

    So, Tommy how do these photos and the physical evidence you mention
    above jive with your assertion last week and the Holocaust is 99%
    testimony?

>	UFO stories include photos of aliens, circles in farmers fields
>as proof of alien landing and photos of rock formations on Mars said
>to be ruins of a past civilization.

    There are no photos of aliens.  Many of the field circles have been
    shown to be hoaxes.  There are no Mars rock formations which
    astronomers suspect show signs of intelligent life.

>	The Holocaust has had many of it's claims exposed as lies, such
>as Auschwitz numbers, gas through shower heads and soap made of human
>fat.

    No.  Historians have never varied significantly on the Auschwitz
    numbers; those who asserted large numbers initially were propogandists. 
    Yes, there has been an evolution of understanding about human soap. 
    This is a natural progression of historical understanding of the
    events.  This progression in no way casts doubt over the larger facts.
    [I have not been tracking the shower head discussion so have no comment
    on that.]

>	UFO stories have had many of their claims exposed as being lies,
>such as the two farmers who confessed to pulling off the hoax of a
>landing site in their fields.

    Yes.  Which argues against your assertion above.  Note that there have
    been no similar uncoverings of hoaxes about the Holocaust.  Not one
    Nazi who has testified has ever recanted and said he was forced.  No
    survivor as ever admitted to hoaxing.  No evidence has ever turned up
    of a widespread conspiracy to plant evidence.

    Notice how easy it was for investigators to discover the farm circle
    hoaxes.  Contrast this to the non-finding of a hoax in regards to the
    Holocaust.

>	Interesting.

    Yes, interesting.  Tommy is just blind to reality.  Its due to the
    zeyde's anti-semitism, I suspect.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Sep 24 16:00:57 PDT 1996
Article: 68433 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.misty.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs: EINSATZGRUPPEN Massacres
Date: 23 Sep 1996 10:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23SEP199610242269@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <51vij8$bab@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article <51vij8$bab@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
>> Keren, the slimey, murderous, lying traitor to everything American.  
>> He is a jew and his loyalty is to Israel not the the US.  
>> It is his kind that need to be sent to the land where their loyalties lie.  
>> It is clear from experience that all jews are suspect because of
>> people like Keren and Pollard and murderers like Grynspan.  
> 
>I LOVE it when Mr. Giwer goes to such lengths to prove he's not anti-Semitic.
> 
>By the way, Dr. Keren, I'd say the above qualifies you as an honorary Fatbroad.

    Yeah, you fatbroads just wish you were "slimey, murderous,
    lying traitors" [SMLTs] like Danny is.  

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 28 00:07:42 PDT 1996
Article: 69548 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 4,000,000 less 3,000,000 still leaves 6,000,000
Date: 27 Sep 1996 22:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <27SEP199622572501@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3247f689.3588250@news.pacificnet.net> <3248afe3.26375621@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <843690420snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <843690420snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk writes...
>In article <3248afe3.26375621@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>           jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca "John Morris" writes:
> 
>> The truth of the matter is that the figure entered into evidence at
>> Nuremberg was four million, but four million for all concentration
>> camps of all kinds. In addition, this figure was not provided by the
>> Soviets, as deniers claim, but by the United States based upon
>> documents it had collected:
> 
>Morris is full of shit again:
> 
>LAW REPORTS OF TRIALS OF WAR CRIMINALS Selected and prepared by 
>THE UNITED NATIONS WAR CRIMES COMMISSION VOLUME II
>page ix: "at least 2,500,000 human beings (or as some say 4,000,000) were 
>done to death by being poisoned in gas chambers [in Auschwitz]".

    No, you have it wrong.  That actual LAW REPORTS OF TRIALS OF WAR
    CRIMINALS Selected and prepared by  THE UNITED NATIONS WAR CRIMES
    COMMISSION VOLUME II said on page ix: "at least 2,500,000 human beings
    (or as some say 4,000,000) were done to death by being poisoned in gas
    chambers [in Auschwitz in Al Baron's mind]".

    I am sure of this.  I paraphrased it directly from the original.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 28 16:04:42 PDT 1996
Article: 69650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 4,000,000 less 3,000,000 still leaves 6,000,000
Date: 28 Sep 1996 08:07 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <28SEP199608070475@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3247f689.3588250@news.pacificnet.net> <3248afe3.26375621@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <843690420snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <52iudf$ija@news.ios.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <52iudf$ija@news.ios.com>, Greg Matson  writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote sarcasm to Al
    Baron:

>>    No, you have it wrong.  That actual LAW REPORTS OF TRIALS OF WAR
>>    CRIMINALS Selected and prepared by  THE UNITED NATIONS WAR CRIMES
>>    COMMISSION VOLUME II said on page ix: "at least 2,500,000 human beings
>>    (or as some say 4,000,000) were done to death by being poisoned in gas
>>    chambers [in Auschwitz in Al Baron's mind]".
>>
>>    I am sure of this.  I paraphrased it directly from the original.
> 
> Those numbers are from the Nurmburg trial, an event JFK condemned. You 
>being a talmudist member of the Mogog tribe, of course has no need for 
>the truth.

    1. Yes, the numbers are from the Nuremburg trials; what we are
    discussing is the context and meaning of those numbers.

    2. No, JFK did not condemn the event (the trials), JFK in _Profiles in
    Courage_ quoted William O. Douglas disparaging the trials.  Note too
    that there is a context for the Douglas statement which is always
    omitted when Nazi apologists post it here.

    3. I have no idea what a "talmudist member of the Magog tribe" is.  Do
    I need to pay dues or something?

    4. I am here working to defend truth in the sense that whatever the
    truth may turn out to be, I want to make sure it is derived through
    legitimate historiogrphical methods.

    Got any more misunderstandings I might be able to clear up for you?


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Sep 28 16:04:43 PDT 1996
Article: 69679 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: 28 Sep 1996 07:58 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 118
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net> <3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net> <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
>>In article <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net>, 
>>amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:
>>
>>[a moron wrote]
>>
>>       So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or Mr.McVay.
>>
>>>Yes, so??  
>>
>>>Unlike you, Moron, they have real lives and probably couldn't 
>>>be bothered to respond to such an obvious troll.  

    Actually, I don't know if Ken has a real life, but I do :>

    I haven't read a.r this week as I have been traveling for work again. 
    I deleted about 1,000 posts without reading them.  Did something
    interesting happen (for once)?

>>Oh! Did Mr. Moran need somethings? Sorry, but he's in my global
>>killfile, so I only see his stuff second-hand. (Or is that
>>"second-hands?")
>>
>>Ah, yes, I see.. a moron wishes a web page... 
>>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/
> 
>	Well It looks like Mr.Mittleman was blurting. Most likely it was
>bluff that caused him to blurt.

    Huh?  English translation, please?

>	Evidently he doesn't have the pull he let on he did. 
> 
>	So the accepted offer was made, and not until Moran posted, a
>number of days later, "So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or
>Mr.McVay" did McVay come out to say that Mr.Mittleman was just
>trolling and the reason he didn't respond sooner was because he has a
>kill file that keeps himself from seeing Moran's stuff and that he got
>it "second hand".

    Tommy, if you need me to respond to something, please send me a
    courtesy email with your post.  I only read about a third of what is in
    a.r these days.  I must have missed whatever it is you want me to
    respond to.

    I don't kill file any of your stuff Tommy, never did.  Too much humor
    in it to do that.  I do occasionally kill file Giwer's stuff though.

>	"Second hand". What could that be? Someone e-mailed him to alert
>him? He was just browsing and ... no that wouldn't be it since his
>auto kill file would have ... but maybe he was looking at someone else
>computer and he just happened to see it. Maybe a little bird told him.
> 
>	The fact is, McVay wakes up everyday in cold sweats wondering
>what Moran has put out here. Sometimes he wakes up in the middle of
>the night screaming, having had a dream Moran had posted another one
>of his devastating exposes of how goofy Nizkor is. When it's a real

    Have you posted a "devastating expose"?  Oh, please send that along
    too!  I have never seen you post anything even close to devastating.

>Moranmare, one where Moran has posted one of his comments that deals

    "Moranmare"?  Is that your mother?  Are we getting Oedipal?

>directly with the nature of McVay himself, McVay runs into the
>bathroom to soak his head in the first thing he sees with immediate
>and ready standing water. The same thing he does when the real thing
>appears on the screen. McVay says he has a kill file to keep himself
>from seeing Moran's stuff. That should tell the story right there. He
>fears the truth. The straight forward facts.

>	Anyway, It's obvious that McVay has nixed the offer that
>Mr.Mittleman blurted out. This is no surprise. For Nizkor to allow
>Moran to put his stuff in their files, straight forward like, would
>have been suicide. The straight forward truth, side by side, eye to
>eye with the contents of the goofy Nizkor files, there like the Mona
>Lisa next to a pile of ... Nizkor.

    Oh, my offer.  That is what you are talking about.  So, when are you
    going to send along some items to be posted on Nizkor?  Is there some
    hangup at your end?  What is it you want?

>	Then there would have been the other problem. Putting Moran's
>files into Nizkor, straight forward like, would have jeopardized
>Nizkor's awesome, omnipotent, mother of all rebuttal weapons - the
>terrible URLs. Especially those where they carry dossiers on various
>posters which are supposed to carry discrediting evidence stated by
>the poster himself, when in fact the dossier files carry nothing more
>than pieces of the posters article with some opposing comment that is
>thought by Nizkor to rebut the piece of article.

    No, as I said, you can submit articles to go in unedited.  This, of
    course, doesn't mean that rebuttals won't be written to them (and then
    you can write replies to the rebuttals if you want).  My only point was
    that if you think that Nizkor cuts up posts into pieces and that that
    weakens those posts, that you can place your posts there uncut so the
    entire post can be read.

>	Well the story's all here. A Mr.Mittleman claims Nizkor will
>allow Moran's stuff into Nizkor files, straight forward like, and the
>"Director" of Nizkor, Mr.McVay, comes out sniveling; 'No way.,
>Mittleman has no authority here., He shouldn't have said it., What do
>you think?, We're crazy?, Allow Moran's stuff into Nizkor, straight
>forward like?, Give his stuff URLs? - No way.' 

    Oh, did Ken say that.  I am surprised.  Can you give the the Message ID
    where he said it so I can see for myself?  It seems unlike something he
    would say.  I am getting confused by your inconsistency.

     daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Sep 30 11:57:27 PDT 1996
Article: 70195 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: 29 Sep 1996 23:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29SEP199623354856@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net> <3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net> <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324b8e90.2088468@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <324b8e90.2088468@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>	This is a demonstration to show that a computer's time can be set
>backwards so that when a post is made, it can look like it was posted
>on that date. The date for this post is 9/27/96.
> 
>	The following header is from a post by Mr.Mittlemman showing a
>posting date of 9/28/96.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>Path:
>news2.cais.com!news.cais.net!news1.exit109.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
>From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
>Date: 28 Sep 1996 07:58 MST
>Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
>Lines: 118
>Distribution: world
>Message-ID: <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
>References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net>
><3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net>
><52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
>News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    What are you yammering about now?  I posted this sometime late evening
    on the 27th.  If it went out on the 28th, it was simply because the
    news server at Arizona was down for the evening (they do server
    maintenance on Friday nights here.)

    But that aside, given the topic we were discussing, what possible
    reason could there be for pretending to post on a different day than I
    did, oh wise and illiterate one?  Riddle me that, will you!



     daniel david mittleman 
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