The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/mittleman.daniel/1996/mittleman.0796


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul  1 09:07:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47250 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: 30 Jun 1996 13:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article , Marty Kelley  writes...
>On 29 Jun 1996, Danny Mittleman wrote:
> 
>> Someone posted: 
> 
>> >	One of the most prominently know racists in modern times, Meier Kanahe
>> >was defended by many Jews simply because he was Jewish.  He even
>> >organized a terrorist organization, the JDL, without receiving public
>> >condemnation for doing so or condemnation of the organization save by
>> >the US Defense Department which plays by its own rules not political
>> >rules.  (Morris Dees never heard of those organized terrorists.)  
>> 
>>     I am not an expert on Kahane, but I am under the impression that most
>>     of the Jewish community distanced themselves from him and that in the
>>     end his political party was declared illegal in Israel?  Am I correct
>>     in my recollections?  Isn't this - or actions like this - very
>>     different than Giwer's suggestion that Kahane was defended or supported
>>     by the Jewish community?
>> 
>>     And, Tommy, isn't the fact that there was a split over Kahane's views
>>     evidence that the Jewish community is not monolithic?
> 
>Ah, but don't you see, Danny, that Mr. Moran knows that Jews only 
>_appear_ to disagree in public--really, the disagreements and debates 
>between vrious factions in organized (and disorganized!) Judaism and 
>Jewish culture are just a smoke screen for what Mr. Moran knows is the 
>real secret monolithic Jewish agenda.

    Oh, right Marty.  I forgot.  What could I have been thinking...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul  1 09:07:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47297 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 25 Jun 1996 22:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <31cfe98f.1607709@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31cec77a.7045339@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>> 
>>>Question:
>>>	The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>>>is:
>>> 
>>>	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?
>>
>>    Definitely this.
>>
>>>	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>>>money. 
> 
> 
>Incredible:
>>
>>    I suspect that there is *some* desire to instill guilt on the part of
>>    *some* Jews.  To argue it is to justify Zionist policies is backwards. 
>>    It presumes that maybe the Holocaust did not happen.  The world (save a
>>    few lunatics) know that it did.
> 
>	"A few"? "Lunatics"? Not neo-Nazis?

    Some of the lunatics are neo-nazis.  Some, like you and Giwer, aren't.

>> I think the idea of financial extortion
>>    from the Holocaust is rather stupid.  Most all of these people would
>>    much rather have their relatives back.  No amount of money can replace
>>    that.  The requests for financial reparations from Germany have been
>>    fairly small -
> 
>	"Requests"? "fairly small"? 50,000,000,000 dollars is small? The
>people would rather have their relatives back instead of the money? 

    Well, you are simply adding up all of the US aid to Israel over the
    years and calling it Jewish extortion.  Since that is ridiculous (just
    take a look at how many Jewish Congressmen there are and at how many
    Jewish voters there are to see how ridiculous this is), I was using the
    more *based in reality* consideration of requests for war reparations
    from Germany.

>> and in recent years have been limited to requests for
>>    return of (or payment for) land taken from the Jews by the Nazis and
>>    return of money and property taken from the Jews by the Nazis.  One can
>>    argue whether such reparations make sense at this late date, but it is
>>    simply mean to call the request extortion. 
> 
>	Extortion, Mr.Mittleman, extortion. 

    Nice well supported logical argument in rebuttal.  I have no idea how
    to respond with such cunning logic and complete presentation of
    argument.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul  1 09:07:46 PDT 1996
Article: 47331 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burned alive in Bialystok
Date: 29 Jun 1996 18:50 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes to Gord McFee...

>And I don't think your explanation cuts it either.  Hundreds of East
>European German communities were completely wiped off the map.  I am sure
>that in some of these small hamlets 100% of the inhabitants were either
>shot or loaded onto trains to rot in Soviet slave labor camps.  I know you
>have read the *Documents on the Expulsions*, why not reference these?
> 
>But that is where your second clause becomes important *for a war in which
>they were entirely uninvolved.*  Because, um alles, you are going to say
>that Mr. and Mrs. German peasant in East Prussia, or Pomerania, or
>Silesia, or the Sudetenland, should have stopped Herr Hitler, and
>therefore what they got was *rough justice.*
> 
>And that is the dark side of democracy: because Hitler was (more or less)
>elected, then every German was responsible, because everyone had the
>_potential_ to affect his (more or less) election.  The extension of the
>concept in war is collective responsibility.

    I agree with Ehrlich on this narrow point.

    I know many Jews who lost family in the Holocaust.  My mother tells me
    that I lost Jewish relatives in it as well.  My girlfriend lost
    relatives in a small Eastern German village as Ehrlich describes above. 
    (They were refugees retreating from the Russians crossing a bridge. 
    The Russians blew up the bridge with a line of people on it.  My
    girlfriend's great grandparents were killed.  Her grandmother ended up
    on one side of the bridge and her then two year old mother ended up on
    the other side.  Her mother and grandmother were not reunited for three
    years.)

    I don't see how my girlfriend's family's loss was any different from a
    Jewish family's loss with the possible exception that the Jewish
    family's loss was more complete.  I don't see how my girlfriend's
    family was any more responsible for the war than a Jewish family.  (At
    least from this slice - I don't know much about her grandfather's or
    great-grandfather's activities independent of this story.)

    I simply see war as a horrible existence where most everyone suffers
    and most people in a society are fairly powerless to do anything about
    it.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul  1 11:59:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47399 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: revising the data, save the total
Date: 30 Jun 1996 22:50 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 79
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In article <4r7dqk$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4r59vl$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>>schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>>: 	Auschwitz has lost 3M, Majdanek 1.5M (50K remaining) and Treblinka 1.2M.
>>>>: That is 5.7M non-deaths that are acknowledged.  Given that the current
>>>>: number of deaths is supposed to be 5.2M it is difficult to see why 40-50
>>>>: years ago, the numbers did not add up to 11.9M (giving Einsatzgruppen
>>>>: credit for 1M.)
>>> 
>>>>Here's a suggestion:  go read the 1961 edition of Hilberg's book and look
>>>>up the numbers of deaths he reports for each camp.  Then look up the total
>>>>he reports.  You will discover that this whole idea of "deaths that went
>>>>away" is nothing more than a figment of your rather fevered imagination.
>>>>As I said the last time you posted this, please come back when you have
>>>>a lie that is more original, or at least more interesting.
>>> 
>>>	To hell with a 16 years after the fact purging of IMT nonsense.  The
>>>number was 6M at the time and 6M it remains from 1945 regardless of the
>>>juggling.
> 
>>    How was that 6 million number calculated in 1945[1] and how is it
>>    calculated today?
> 
>>    If you know, please tell us.

    Note that he has not told us.  I suspect he does not know.  Actually,
    this is not quite true.  Below he suggests that the Russians [sic]
    created it and made up Treblinka so the numbers would balance.

    He either doesn't know (or is feigning ignorance) of the demographic
    studies made in the late 40s from which the historical numbers have
    emerged.

    He either doesn't know (or is feigning ignorance) how recent historical
    projects have calculated the numbers.  His Russian story does not
    address this point at all.

>>    If you don't know, how can you question whether or not it would be
>>    effected by changes in individual camp numbers?
> 
>>    [1]: I am only aware of the 6 million number going back to 1947 or 48. 
>>    What is your source for the number in 1945?  [with enough detail so I
>>    can trace it back, please.]
> 
>	Good sir, I gave you the numbers from then and now.  I did my own
>addition.  I think it is clear that what are presently claim to HAVE
>BEEN the numbers were not the numbers in back then.  That is the point I
>am making.  

    You did your own addition???  So then you simply added up number from
    the camps???  For what value is that?

    What are presently claimed to be the numbers are roughly the same as
    the numbers concluded by demographic studies of European populations
    conducted in the late 1940s.  While the counts have evolved slightly
    over the years and further demographic studies have been undertaken,
    the numbers are still roughly would they were in the late 1940s.

    I don't know about Soviet counts, but then they were generally not
    used by historians for serious work.

>	What existed were completely Russian totals created by Russians.  They
>picked numbers for the camps and even created Treblinka in the process
>to make up the delta for the total they wanted.  

    I don't know what the Soviets did.  I would be surprised to find that
    they "created" Treblinka.  What evidence is there of this?  Methinks
    this is simply one of your outragieous trolls just to see how it is
    responded to.  Maybe next you will tell us the Soviets were all
    pharmacists.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul  2 06:55:29 PDT 1996
Article: 47661 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: 1 Jul 1996 20:46 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <31d7d8d0.1657032@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>		Behold the lie, tell your friends.
> 
>	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
>Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
>sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
>comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
>is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.
> 
>	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
>After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
>those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
>had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
>previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
>exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
>1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction.

    BEHOLD THE LIE: Historians have never claimed that 4,000m000 people
    were exterminated at Auschwitz.  Note that Tommy does not provide
    historical citations for his claim - he never does when he reposts this
    drivel.

     >Among those dedicated to
>keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
>Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
>so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
>process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
>bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
>style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 
> 
>	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
>Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
>give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
> 
>                            --------
>	
>       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>are much lower than previously thought?"
>*("well over" meaning 4 million)

    BEHOLD THE LIE: Tommy is presenting this paragraph out of context.  In
    context at SWC it clearly is among a list of questions posed by
    deniers.  What Tommy prints here is the denier question verbatim.  
    What Tommy does not print is the response to the question which
    explains that the count of deaths at Auschwitz has always be estimated
    by historians to be in the range of one million or so (actually 800,000
    to 1,500,000 in different studies.)

    You get the point.  The rest of Tommy's lies are deleted.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul  2 11:14:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47705 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: 1 Jul 1996 20:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <31d7d889.1586508@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	"Remember the Children" is the most prevalant motto found posted
>around the premises of the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. It
>is displayed on the inside and on the outside.

    When did you visit the Museum?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul  2 18:26:39 PDT 1996
Article: 57377 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 2 Jul 1996 06:58 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 92
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47821 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57377 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:101 alt.usenet.kooks:26269

In article <4ran89$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
>>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning
>>> the holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
> 
>>I see -- so your spam will increase n-fold.  Thanks for warning us.
> 
>	I told you what would happen BEFORE I started it.  You were forewarned.
>Perhaps you have a newsfeed problem...  
> 
>>> Do you folks really want to continue this?
> 
>>What could we do to stop your spamming, Mr. Giwer?
> 
>	Lots of things.  Shut up McFly for one thing.  
> 
>	Stop ALL personal attacks on everyone in any manner for another.
> 
>	Cease ALL "troll" references.  
> 
>	Good enough for openers?  
> 
>>It's clear that you already consider an "attack" to be anything which
>>you do not like -- for example, a lighthearted tangential reference to
>>you as a "troll" is enough to set you off.  Or a pun ("Giwerdly Lion").
>>Or a mention of the fact that you are abusing the net.
> 
>	Precisely.  Simply stop it all.  It is that simple.  
> 
>	And that means not just what is directed towards me but everything that
>is directed towards everyone who happens to disagree with any past or
>present version of the holocaust description.  
> 
>	Is that clear enough?  
> 
>>Even a simple mention of the fact that you engage in ad hominem attacks,
>>Mr. Giwer, is enough to trigger your spam finger.  
> 
>	Actually it takes three fingers but only two keystrokes.  
> 
>Apparently saying
>>that someone else engages in ad hominem is itself ad hominem.  I guess
>>you're allowed to call my colleague a "simpering bitch," 
> 
>	Did I say that?  That really isn't my style.  It is too subtle.  I
>usually do better.  
> 
>as you did
>>earlier today, and I'm forbidden from even pointing that out.  That
>>hardly seems fair, Mr. Giwer.
> 
>	Fuck fair.  Neither was calling me a nazi and an antisemite without
>cause which is what started all of this.  
> 
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
> 
>>So, since you've decreed that every form of expression is off-limits
>>except that of your friends -- what could we do to stop you?
> 
>>Posted;  not emailed, for reasons explained previously.
>>-- 
>> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>> Hate mail will be posted.
> 
>	Just stop it all and get this back to a discussion of revisionism
>without all the crap you exterminationists have introduced over the
>years.  This is not your conference.  It is for revisionist discussion.
> 
> 
>	You do not have to leave.  You can contribute by critiquing the
>revisionist proposals.  You folks will be doing a service in that
>regard.  
> 
>	The choice is yours.  When it all stops there will be nothing for me to
>respond to.  Therefore it stops.  It is all that simple.  
> 
>	And you better get that word to everyone here and to all the newcomers
>as quickly as possible.  
> 
>	I accept no excuses.  

    Or else...?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul  2 18:31:12 PDT 1996
Article: 47813 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: 1 Jul 1996 23:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 53
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In article <4r9mcm$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>>  	Beyond that, stop reaching.  What in fact happened in the US was
>>>  correctly described here, Jewish leaders "distanced themselves" which
>>>  means they did not want to be associated with but refused to condemn the
>>>  terrorism of Kahane and the JDL.  Or are you really such a novice that
>>>  you have no idea what "distance" means in political terms?  Or do you
>>>  think there are people here so inexperienced that they will buy your cop
>>>  out for the terrorist organization, the JDL?  
> 
>>	Please back up your outrageous opinions with facts.  What were the 
>>statements and who made them.  You have made the assertions, now prove 
>>them.  Until then you might tell us whether you agree with L'il Tommy that the 
>>Knights of the Klu Klux Klan is a "Jewish organization."
> 
>>	Let's see where you stand, Matty poo.
> 
>========
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: One man's opinion
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:13:10 GMT
> 
>"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
>particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list of
>pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.
>It was the foundation of the American system of law and justice and
>[Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country discarding
>those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy." 
> 
>-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
>John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
>p.189-190. 

    Given that he responded with a completely off topic cite, I'd say he is
    standing in the middle of the room with his pants down on this one.  He
    apparantly has no real response to your challange that he provide
    grounding for his assertion.

    Typical. 
> 
> 
> 
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul  2 18:31:16 PDT 1996
Article: 47820 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Not a solution, but a small help
Date: 1 Jul 1996 20:38 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>My computer has a 15" monitor.
> 
>I use Newswatcher.
> 
>When I pull up a post in alt.rev and it's got one full screen of quoting,
>and the header says the author is Matt Giwer, I skip it.
>Period.
> 
>In this way, I can read the possible responses by Mr. Giwer, but have the
>pleasure of skipping his weak attempts at spamming.
> 
>No, I'm NOT putting him in my killfile. I need the comic relief of his
>posts. But I don't need the silly-assed way he's trying to "scare" people
>off.

    I have been using the same newsreader since 1990 but am thinking of
    switching to one which allows killfiles by author as too many Giwer
    posts slip through my current killfile structure.  I too simply skip by
    them, but I would like to automate the process.

    He seems to be going off the deep end these days; there isn't rally
    much of anything for me even to respond to anymore his posts are so
    outside of reality.  And I don't get the humor quotient you seem to
    get.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul  2 18:31:19 PDT 1996
Article: 47821 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 2 Jul 1996 06:58 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 92
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47821 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57377 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:101 alt.usenet.kooks:26269

In article <4ran89$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
>>> I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>> holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning
>>> the holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.  
> 
>>I see -- so your spam will increase n-fold.  Thanks for warning us.
> 
>	I told you what would happen BEFORE I started it.  You were forewarned.
>Perhaps you have a newsfeed problem...  
> 
>>> Do you folks really want to continue this?
> 
>>What could we do to stop your spamming, Mr. Giwer?
> 
>	Lots of things.  Shut up McFly for one thing.  
> 
>	Stop ALL personal attacks on everyone in any manner for another.
> 
>	Cease ALL "troll" references.  
> 
>	Good enough for openers?  
> 
>>It's clear that you already consider an "attack" to be anything which
>>you do not like -- for example, a lighthearted tangential reference to
>>you as a "troll" is enough to set you off.  Or a pun ("Giwerdly Lion").
>>Or a mention of the fact that you are abusing the net.
> 
>	Precisely.  Simply stop it all.  It is that simple.  
> 
>	And that means not just what is directed towards me but everything that
>is directed towards everyone who happens to disagree with any past or
>present version of the holocaust description.  
> 
>	Is that clear enough?  
> 
>>Even a simple mention of the fact that you engage in ad hominem attacks,
>>Mr. Giwer, is enough to trigger your spam finger.  
> 
>	Actually it takes three fingers but only two keystrokes.  
> 
>Apparently saying
>>that someone else engages in ad hominem is itself ad hominem.  I guess
>>you're allowed to call my colleague a "simpering bitch," 
> 
>	Did I say that?  That really isn't my style.  It is too subtle.  I
>usually do better.  
> 
>as you did
>>earlier today, and I'm forbidden from even pointing that out.  That
>>hardly seems fair, Mr. Giwer.
> 
>	Fuck fair.  Neither was calling me a nazi and an antisemite without
>cause which is what started all of this.  
> 
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
> 
>>So, since you've decreed that every form of expression is off-limits
>>except that of your friends -- what could we do to stop you?
> 
>>Posted;  not emailed, for reasons explained previously.
>>-- 
>> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>> Hate mail will be posted.
> 
>	Just stop it all and get this back to a discussion of revisionism
>without all the crap you exterminationists have introduced over the
>years.  This is not your conference.  It is for revisionist discussion.
> 
> 
>	You do not have to leave.  You can contribute by critiquing the
>revisionist proposals.  You folks will be doing a service in that
>regard.  
> 
>	The choice is yours.  When it all stops there will be nothing for me to
>respond to.  Therefore it stops.  It is all that simple.  
> 
>	And you better get that word to everyone here and to all the newcomers
>as quickly as possible.  
> 
>	I accept no excuses.  

    Or else...?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul  2 22:15:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47839 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Categories (was Re: Holocaust final exam)
Date: 2 Jul 1996 16:33 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 66
Distribution: world
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References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r4oba$c6n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <177B69A84S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> 
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In article , Marty Kelley  writes...
>While I have some qualms about the connotations of Ehrlich's 
>"conventionalist" coinage, it would be less derisive and disrespectful.
>"Anti-revisionist" would be another possibility; although both terms 
>assume a position of intellectual integrity for Holocaust denial (a 
>position which is easily demonstrated to be fallacious), both terms would 
>be acceptible to me.  "Anti-revisionist" also seems a fair descriptor of 
>people here who accept the established history of the Holocaust, since 
>they are for the most part engaging in the discussion with the express 
>goal of showing Holocaust denial to be a distortion of historical reality.
> 
>So take your pick: "anti-revisionist" or "conventionalist" would both be 
>acceptable replacements for "holohugger."
> 
>Other opinions?

    I use the term "historian" to described those trained in historiography
    who do primary source research on the Holocaust.

    I use the term "archivist" to describe those here on the web who
    catalog and synthesize primary and secondary source material into
    on-line archives to make Holocaust material more readily available to
    the masses.

    I use the term "revisionist" to describe historians who take a contra
    point of view regarding the Holocaust and support their point of view
    with legitimate historiography.  This category is a bit awkward as it
    is unclear whether people such as Ehrlich and David Irving belong here. 
    I guess where they should be placed depends on both their motivations
    and the honesty of their research -- which is not always readily
    apparent.  They may belong here or in the category just below. 
    [Personally, I place Ehrlich here and Irving below.]

    I use the term "denier" to describe those who flat out deny large
    portions of clearly demonstratable fact about the Holocaust in the face
    of evidence put in front of them.

    I divide "deniers" into several categories.  There are the
    "propogandists" who know full well the Holocaust occurred but are lying
    about it as means to a political end.  Some of these people are
    neo-nazis, but not all of them are.  There are the "fodder" (as in
    canon fodder) who are so dumb that they believe the propogandists. 
    They do the low brow heavy work for the propogandists and will someday
    (many propogandists hope) serve as canon fodder when the Fourth Reich
    comes.  There are the "loons" who are mentally unstable in one form or
    another and have personal reasons for viewing the world as they do.  It
    is possible the this subgroup sometimes overlaps with the other
    subgroups.  [Probably the correct way to refer to these people is with
    a hyphen as in "denier-propogandist" or "denier-loon".]

    I use the term "innocents" for those who are unaware of the
    facts of the Holocaust and ask innocent questions about it.  I
    differentiate these people from the "fodder" as they have open minds
    and are able to assimilate information as it is presented to them.

    To make it clear these terms refer to the Holocaust it makes sense to
    use "Holocaust" as a modifier as in "Holocaust Historian" or "Holocaust
    Denier".

    For some reason I have always drawn a parallel between these categories
    and the four types of children described during a Passover seder though
    they don't map perfectly.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 07:37:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47898 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: 2 Jul 1996 07:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 73
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In article <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31d7d8d0.1657032@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>> 
>>>		Behold the lie, tell your friends.
>>> 
>>>	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
>>>Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
>>>sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
>>>comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
>>>is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.
>>> 
>>>	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
>>>After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
>>>those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
>>>had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
>>>previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
>>>exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
>>>1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction.
> 
>>    BEHOLD THE LIE: Historians have never claimed that 4,000m000 people
>>    were exterminated at Auschwitz.  Note that Tommy does not provide
>>    historical citations for his claim - he never does when he reposts this
>>    drivel.
> 
>	It is an amazing position that historians know better than an impartial
>court with an army of investigators determined just after the war.  
> 
>	That individual historians without a fraction of the resources can find
>differently is a monument to weaseling out of the findings of the
>kangaroo trials at Nuremberg and nothing less.  
> 
>>     >Among those dedicated to
>>>keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
>>>Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
>>>so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
>>>process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
>>>bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
>>>style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 
>>> 
>>>	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
>>>Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
>>>give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>>> 
>>>                            --------
>>>	
>>>       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>>>at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>>>former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>>>Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>>>are much lower than previously thought?"
>>>*("well over" meaning 4 million)
> 
>>    BEHOLD THE LIE: Tommy is presenting this paragraph out of context.  In
>>    context at SWC it clearly is among a list of questions posed by
>>    deniers.  What Tommy prints here is the denier question verbatim.  
>>    What Tommy does not print is the response to the question which
>>    explains that the count of deaths at Auschwitz has always be estimated
>>    by historians to be in the range of one million or so (actually 800,000
>>    to 1,500,000 in different studies.)
> 
>>    You get the point.  The rest of Tommy's lies are deleted.
> 
>	In other words you agree that Nuremberg was a Kangaroo court.  

    I wouldn't use terms that strong, but yes.  Well before you arrived at
    alt.revisionism both Gord McFee and I posted doubts and qualms about
    the propriety of the trials at Nuremburg.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 07:37:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47902 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 2 Jul 1996 16:50 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
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References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4ragj3$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4rc4n9$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4rc4n9$98@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
> 
>>In article <4ragj3$m02@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
>>> 
>>>         In keeping with your analogy of sublimating grief, even at that level,
>>> given a 75 year average life span, at least 2/3s of the people
>>> sublimating in public were not even born until after 1945.  It is not
>>> clear why there is any grief to sublimate for them.  
>>>  
> 
>>Mr. Giwer:
>> 
>>I was born after 1945. 12 years after, to be precise. (Birth certificate
>>can be produced if you need evidence.)
>> 
>>My mother (deceased last year) was born in Poland. She, her father,
>>mother, and brother emigrated to Canada in the 1920s. (In case you're
>>wondering how they survived.) One aunt and one uncle followed a bit later.
>>Everyone else was "disappeared."
>> 
>>The fact that I was born after the end of the war does not mean I do not
>>mourn those relatives and landsmen I never met. 
>> 
>>Your callousness is only matched by your ignorance.
> 
>	Normal people do not mourn even their own deceased parents for years.  
> 
>	You appear to have succomb to some kind of cultural admonishmion to do
>so.  
> 
>	If in fact you are not twisting the meaning of mourning, your behavior
>is very abnormal.  You are the kind of person I have talked about.  

    Just as I thought AND PUBLICLY STATED that it was crude and insensivite
    for Marduk to intercede and comment upon Giwer's relationships with his
    late wives, I think it crude and insensitive for Giwer to intercede and
    commont upon Ms. Schwartz's manner of mourning over her relatives.

    Giwer's comments above are out of line and he should apologize to Ms.
    Schwartz.

    As Giwer has repeatedly stated, what holds for one side should hold for
    all.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 15:06:16 PDT 1996
Article: 47991 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Categories (was Re: Holocaust final exam)
Date: 3 Jul 1996 09:40 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 143
Distribution: world
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References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r4oba$c6n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <177B69A84S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <31da7d36.155851515@news.zilker.net>
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    posted/emailed

In article <31da7d36.155851515@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>posted/emailed this one

[marty kelley's question deleted, except for:] 
>>>Other opinions?
>>
>>    I use the term "historian" to described those trained in historiography
>>    who do primary source research on the Holocaust.
> 
>Just the Holocuast? You mean all those hard working folks studying the
>French Revolution or the Magna Carta aren't historians? :-) Don't
>forget us lowly average folks. You do use the term "Holocaust
>Historian" at the end of your article. :-)

    Yes, here and below, where you note that there is historical revisionism
    occurring regarding many events in history, it is important to use the
    qualifier "Holocaust" to denote that this category of person refers to
    a specific slice of the pie.  The terms therefore would be:

    Holocaust Historian
    Holocaust Archivist
    Holocaust Revisionist
    Holocaust Denier-propogandist
    Holocaust Denier-fodder
    Holocaust Denier-loon
    Holocaust Innocent

    And if one argues that there is revisionism going on regarding several
    holocausts, it might be helpful then to add the qualifier "Nazi"
    infront of Holocaust (I use Nazi - the perpetrators - rather then
    Jewish - one victim group - as it is important not to forget the other
    victim groups.)

>>    I use the term "archivist" to describe those here on the web who
>>    catalog and synthesize primary and secondary source material into
>>    on-line archives to make Holocaust material more readily available to
>>    the masses.
>>
>>    I use the term "revisionist" to describe historians who take a contra
>>    point of view regarding the Holocaust and support their point of view
>>    with legitimate historiography.
> 
>Again, the deniers are not historical revisionists. I agree. But don't
>put quotes around those who do real revisionism no matter what the
>time or event in history happens to be. A prime example is Davy
>Crockett and the Alamo. Did he die fighting or did he really get shot
>by firing squad? This is revisionism. Revisionism isn't making a case
>the the Alamo didn't happen, but rather that it didn't happen in the
>generally accepted manner. Were there really 5,000 Mexicans or really
>only 1,500?

    Agreed.  And the Alamo is the example I too use to demonstrate real
    revisionism.  Note the qualifiers mentioned both above and below
    account for your point here.

>>  This category is a bit awkward as it
>>    is unclear whether people such as Ehrlich and David Irving belong here. 
> 
>For me the jury is still out. Ehrlich can comment on this impression.
>I see him as a combination of Butz and Arno Mayer with the confusion
>of David Irving mixed in. I could be wrong. Ehrlich *might* be closer
>to an amateur revisionist than the denier/distortionist/"revisionist.
>What does he think?

    Yes, I would call Ehrlich an amateur revisionist (and I don't mean
    amateur to be durogautory (sp?) as I am most certainly an amateur
    archivist.)

>>    I guess where they should be placed depends on both their motivations
>>    and the honesty of their research -- which is not always readily
>>    apparent.  They may belong here or in the category just below. 
>>    [Personally, I place Ehrlich here and Irving below.]
>>
>>    I use the term "denier" to describe those who flat out deny large
>>    portions of clearly demonstratable fact about the Holocaust in the face
>>    of evidence put in front of them.
>>
>>    I divide "deniers" into several categories.  There are the
>>    "propogandists" who know full well the Holocaust occurred but are lying
>>    about it as means to a political end.
> 
>Or racial. I'm constantly curious about the concern over the Jewish
>aspect rather than the big picture of the Holocaust and the massive
>amount of different noncombatants effected by it.

    I lump this under political.  Some of these people are anti-semites,
    some are racialists, some may be other combinations.  The operative
    point, though, is that they are using a big lie technique to advance a
    political agenda.

>>  Some of these people are
>>    neo-nazis, but not all of them are.  

>>    There are the "fodder" (as in
>>    canon fodder) who are so dumb that they believe the propogandists. 
>>    They do the low brow heavy work for the propogandists and will someday
>>    (many propogandists hope) serve as canon fodder when the Fourth Reich
>>    comes.  

>>    There are the "loons" who are mentally unstable in one form or
>>    another and have personal reasons for viewing the world as they do.  It
>>    is possible the this subgroup sometimes overlaps with the other
>>    subgroups.  [Probably the correct way to refer to these people is with
>>    a hyphen as in "denier-propogandist" or "denier-loon".]
> 
>An ex-Neo-Nazi calls them "blank slates."

    Nice term.  These would be the sub-category I referred to as fodder.
    I assume you would agree that Tom Moran belongs in this category.

>>    I use the term "innocents" for those who are unaware of the
>>    facts of the Holocaust and ask innocent questions about it.  I
>>    differentiate these people from the "fodder" as they have open minds
>>    and are able to assimilate information as it is presented to them.
> 
>We must be screwingup in our basic instruction concerning the second
>world war.

    Not just the Second World War...  We have a paper that is about to be
    published out of my Research Center which includes a discussion with a
    high school teacher who insists that high school students are not
    capable of critical thinking and therefore they should not be given
    problems which will require them to do so as they will fail and their
    self esteem will be lowered.  Apparently she was taught this in her
    teacher education and had it reinforced over twenty years in the field. 
    It is sad.  (The paper is a manifesto arguing for new learning
    pedogogies in the schools.)

>>    To make it clear these terms refer to the Holocaust it makes sense to
>>    use "Holocaust" as a modifier as in "Holocaust Historian" or "Holocaust
>>    Denier".
>>
>>    For some reason I have always drawn a parallel between these categories
>>    and the four types of children described during a Passover seder though
>>    they don't map perfectly.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 16:42:21 PDT 1996
Article: 48037 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: 3 Jul 1996 09:41 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 9
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199609415098@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31da8509.893190@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE

    Tom Moran's manifesto.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 16:42:21 PDT 1996
Article: 48038 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Coming soon to a newsgroup near you"
Date: 3 Jul 1996 09:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199609433908@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31da8513.903351@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>(Yale, yours should be the first one to arrive.  Once I've perfected
>>that, I know the others will be a piece of cake).  Probably won't take
>>me more than a few days, though.  And just as soon as I've got it
>>finished, I'll get right to work on this.
> 
>	Above, Hilary mentions she is "working out the details for
>shipping", the latest ZOG decoder rings. She then interjects that she
>is going to send the first off to someone, and then once she has
>"perfected that" the rest should be "a piece of cake".
> 
>	Whats to perfect? Was it getting the little lid on the box, or
>what?

    If she told you, she'd have to kill you.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
               Quoth the H*ber: "What a stupid discussion"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 16:42:22 PDT 1996
Article: 48039 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OOH - WEE
Date: 3 Jul 1996 09:47 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199609471902@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31da858c.1024625@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    Which camps are we talking about now?  I've forgotton and you have
>>    removed it from the conversation stream.  When you tell me the camp, I
>>    will need to research the answer.  Other than Auschwitz, I don't have
>>    too many of the camps memorized.  But your initial post stated that the
>>    status of two camps changed recently.  I asked you for evidence of a
>>    change.  You have since played lots of word games but have not provided
>>    any evidence to support your initial assertion.  Which is status quo
>>    for you.
> 
>	He says he has forgotten what camps we're talking about. All he
>had to do is look back through the thread, a short work. "Other than
>Auschwitz" he doesn't have too many of the camps memorized. 
>	He says I have "played lots of word games". No further comment
>than to ionvite anyone reading this to review the thread to see who is
>playing games.
>	Enough of you Mr.Mittleman. All you can remember is Auschwitz.  

    Note that this converstion began with Moran asserting that "the status"
    of Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen have recently been changed. 

    Note that I wasked for evidence that their status has changed.

    Note that Tommy has squirmed a lot, but has not provided any evidence.

    Note that this is status quo for Tommy.  He virtually never provides
    evidence to support his assertions.

    Note that even when this is clearly laid out in front of him her will
    either [1] not respond to this post at all, or [2] respond with
    something other than the evidence requested.

    Note that Marty Kelley has put together a lenghty list of other topics
    where Tommy has done the same thing.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 16:42:23 PDT 1996
Article: 48040 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!cass.ma02.bull.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: 3 Jul 1996 07:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199607155235@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31d7d8d0.1657032@news.pacificnet.net> <1JUL199620463025@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rcdna$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4rcdna$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...

>>>	In other words you agree that Nuremberg was a Kangaroo court.  
> 
>>    I wouldn't use terms that strong, but yes.  Well before you arrived at
>>    alt.revisionism both Gord McFee and I posted doubts and qualms about
>>    the propriety of the trials at Nuremburg.
> 
>	And your objections to the findings were?  

    I didn't say I objected to the findings.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 19:42:28 PDT 1996
Article: 48060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960703: Hunger strike is over!
Date: 3 Jul 1996 09:53 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1599 alt.revisionism:48060

In article <199607033793.ABA3018@infinity.c2.org>, zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) writes...
> 
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
> 
>At a time when millions across America now KNOW that there is very serious
>doubt about the so-called "Holocaust", what does America's First Lady do?
>She kisses up to it.
> 
>Yesterday, she went to visit Auschwitz.  According to an ANA report, she
> 
>". . . called the 'holocaust' a 'cold, rational evil' and said 'The lessons
>of this place should never be forgotten . . .You can't even let up for a
>minute on your condemning of extremism and intolerance'. . ."
> 
>She also opined that Bosnian genocide and the church burnings here in the
>US  prove that "intolerance" still plagues the world.

    This post from the Zundel-seit contradicts two commonly made assertions
    by anti-semites:

    1. It has been asserted in alt.revisionism that only Jews carry on
    about the Holocaust.  Here we have Hilary Clinton, a devout Methodist,
    making direct remarks about it.

    2. It has been asserted in alt.revisionism that people are focused on
    only the Nazi Holocaust and do not address other genocides currently
    taking place in the world today.  Here we have Hilary Clinton
    addressing those other issues.

    Thank you, Zundel-seit.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 21:00:23 PDT 1996
Article: 48083 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The Booger-Eatin' Hillbillies
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199618450214@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:   
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:34987 alt.politics.nationalism.white:24467 alt.discrimination:49660 alt.revisionism:48083 alt.skinheads:30730

    Pardon me if I butt in, I love parody...

In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article , jeannek@rio.com
>(Jeanne Kowalewski) wrote:
> 
>Here's a start for ya, Jeanne:
> 
>Here's the story
>of a bunch of Nazis
>who hated all those world-controlling Jooos,
>All of them had brains of air
>like their Fuhrer
>but they had modems, too.

    Its a story
    Of a bunch of Fascists
    Nostalgic for the Roman Empire days
    They made the trains run on time
    For Benito
    But their army stank.

    Then one day when the Fuhrer met Il Duce
    And divided up their conquests over lunch.
    They signed a pact declaring non-agression
    And out of this begat the Axis Bunch.

    The Axis Bunch...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 21:31:02 PDT 1996
Article: 48085 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: 3 Jul 1996 19:00 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199619001037@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31d7d8d0.1657032@news.pacificnet.net> <1JUL199620463025@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4retnr$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4retnr$inu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4rcdna$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>In article <4rankg$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
> 
>>>>>	In other words you agree that Nuremberg was a Kangaroo court.  
>>> 
>>>>    I wouldn't use terms that strong, but yes.  Well before you arrived at
>>>>    alt.revisionism both Gord McFee and I posted doubts and qualms about
>>>>    the propriety of the trials at Nuremburg.
>>> 
>>>	And your objections to the findings were?  
> 
>>    I didn't say I objected to the findings.
> 
>	How about your "doubts and qualms" then?  

    I have a problem with victors going in and trying losers for crimes so
    shortly after a war.  While there may well have been acts perpetrated
    appropriate for non-military punishment (many acts of the Holocaust for
    example), I suspect that there is a risk of over criminalizing acts
    with the emotion of war and the desire for retribution so close at
    hand.

    I hope that in the future such trials, if held, are slower more
    deliberate actions than Nuremberg appeared to be and that to the
    greatest expent possible the criminal courts of the local country be
    used rather than international tribunals.

    I have the same qualms over the Bosnian/Serb trials currently being
    held.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul  3 22:42:53 PDT 1996
Article: 48107 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marduk again?
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:53 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 9
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199618532328@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Oopsy@Epileptic.com (Margaux Hemingway) writes...

    You know, I skip right by turd@whitehouse.gov's posts, but some fake
    handles are so vulgar I find them funny...


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 07:43:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48114 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: 3 Jul 1996 22:31 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199622314857@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>  <4ran89$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rfeb5$qfs@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48114 news.admin.net-abuse.misc:57681 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:113 alt.usenet.kooks:26362

In article <4rfeb5$qfs@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
>Thanks Keith, but you may not know why he wants *McFee* shut up and not all
>the other folks who have fought it out with him.  It's because McFee has him
>by the ass and is about to run him out of town on a rail.  McFee has seen
>through his game, and Giwer knows how and why.  He also knows what McFee can
>reveal about him (his "assistants", his sources, his methods, the whole nine
>yards), and he is scared shitless.  He has to get McFee out of the equation
>because he knows McFee can bring him all the way down and he doesn't know
>when McFee is going to choose to do so.  He is a terrified old troll.

    Well, this is amusing.  Almost enough to make me read Giwer posts more
    often.  Almost.

    Do share a nugget or two of this information with us now and then...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 07:43:37 PDT 1996
Article: 48115 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: And/Or Numbers
Date: 3 Jul 1996 22:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199622231073@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31daddb4.903626@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	Not explained at the head of the above main article is, that the
>main list ("Nizkor") and commentary was given by D.Keren in response
>to a Mr.Martin back in 1992. 
> 
>	The figures for the Wiesenthal Center, I added.
> 
>	I believe some other lists may have the numbers for the moon.

    Yeah, we noticed you added your anus to the post.

    Also not explained is that George Martin turned out to be a nom de
    plume for Dan Gannon.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 07:43:38 PDT 1996
Article: 48182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!info.usuhs.mil!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 3 Jul 1996 18:02 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199618025825@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31da9615.5257091@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31da9615.5257091@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	Nizkor also has a link to "N.J. Commission on Holocaust
>Education" which is not available at the moment. We will just have to
>wait for this one. I recall there being some resistance to this
>reported, with one of the resistance movement citing some new figures
>of 5,000,000 Jewish victims being put forth, and a Jew bluster
>demanding that they should leave it at 6,000,000 anyway.

    So basically you are telling us that you have nothing to say for the
    moment.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 07:43:39 PDT 1996
Article: 48194 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What in the world are Jews doing bowing to white christian trash ?
Date: 4 Jul 1996 06:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4JUL199606160805@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rg6f2$p7h@news.ios.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4rg6f2$p7h@news.ios.com>, Mary Kravits  writes...
> 
> I though we all understood, NO DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST ! We are Jews not 
>goyem,so stop going down to their level. Don't beg them for 
>understanding. They are nothing more than anti Semetic animals. The 
>germans scum are the lowest of the bunch. Tell them to take their filthy 
>bible,the cross and jesus(the bastard) and shove them up their aryan 
>asses.

    Thank you Mary (nice Jewish name?).  On the off chance you are not
    trolling let me point out:

    1. There is little shared understanding here.
    2. While the argument has been put forward that debating the Holocuast
    gives credibility to the deniers, not everyone here has agreed to lay
    off it.  Some people believe it is important to counter their lies.
    3. Not everyone here is a Jew.  In fact many - if not most - here
    countering the deniers are not Jews.
    4. Some of them are anti-semitic animals.  I am not sure I would label
    all of them as that.
    5. The Germans are a proud people who make wonderful beer.  The Nazis
    are the lowest scum of the bunch.  I don't want American defined by the
    White Power Rangers; we should not define Germany by the Nazis.
    6. "Filthy bible" is a wide swath.  You probably don't quite mean to
    criticize everyone here who believes in god.

    But thank you for playing.
                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 09:58:13 PDT 1996
Article: 71465 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: cmsg cancel <3JUL199618450214@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Control: cancel <3JUL199618450214@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: 3 Jul 1996 19:04 MST
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                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 10:21:42 PDT 1996
Article: 48233 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 3 Jul 1996 22:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199622152776@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r9n9o$46k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31d924ea.67697726@news.zilker.net> <4rej7n$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4rej7n$39a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <4rcl4l$c05@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>> 
>>>	You are certainly a newcomer to this.  I went through the exercise of
>>>pointing out the "jews only" holocaust attitude promoted by Jews.  I
>>>backed this up with extensive crossposts from the primary holocaust web
>>>sites.  Among them were the SWC, the USHMM and of course our favorite,
>>>Nizkor.  You clearly have it backwards.  
> 
>>    Actually, when Giwer first made these assertions I posted excepts from
>>    both the USHMM home page and the Nizkor home page which clearly showed
>>    them both to primarily note there were circa 12,000,000 victims of the
>>    Holocaust - both Jewish and non-Jewish (take a look at these pages for
>>    confirmation.)
> 
>>    Giwer may be right about SWC and if he is, they ought to adjust their
>>    page.

    Note what I said above.

>>    However, the assertion Giwer makes above runs counter to the historical
>>    reality of this newsgroup.
> 
>	Glossary of the Holocaust, SWC
> 
>HOLOCAUST 
>     The destruction of some 6 million Jews by the Nazis and their
>followers in Europe
>     between the years 1933-1945. Other individuals and groups were
>persecuted and
>     suffered grievously during this period, but only the Jews were
>marked for complete and
>     utter annihilation. The term "Holocaust" - literally meaning "a
>completely burned sacrifice"
>     - tends to suggest a sacrificial connotation to what occurred. The
>word Shoah, originally
>     a Biblical term meaning widespread disaster, is the modern Hebrew
>equivalent. 

    You are batting .333 buckeroo.  You were shown to be wrong on the other
    two accounts and I, at least, never charged you were wrong on this one.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 10:41:13 PDT 1996
Article: 24536 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Changes to CIO website
Date: 3 Jul 1996 22:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3JUL199622324766@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rfef2$lmo@tribune.concentric.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:35086 alt.politics.nationalism.white:24536 alt.revisionism:48238

In article <4rfef2$lmo@tribune.concentric.net>, "Ronald C. Schoedel"  writes...
>Friends and others:
> 
>Now removed from the CIO website:
> 
>	"World Jewry Exposed" -- gone.
>	Revisionist History material -- gone
>	Material pertaining to National socialism -- gone
> 
>Changes made  as of 23:10 EDT, 3 July 1996.

    Great!  What's still there?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 13:42:37 PDT 1996
Article: 48276 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Push, push, push
Date: 4 Jul 1996 12:53 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 60
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4JUL199612533938@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31dbc7b0.449451@news.pacificnet.net> <4JUL199608115015@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31dbfe0c.3795921@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31dbfe0c.3795921@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31dbc7b0.449451@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>	
>>>     	"Hungary to Compensate Jews for Wartime Losses"
>>>                    N.Y.Times, July 4, 1996
>>
>>    Thanks for the quick work.  You have this posted even before I got out
>>    of bed this morning.
> 
>	Every day Mr.Mittleman's body gets out of bed, and then proceeds
>to sleep walk all day.

    Yeah, I gotta give up the decaf.

>>>	The article tells us there are 20,000 "survivors" out of the
>>>100,000 remaining. Seeing how it is now 1996, 50 years after the the
>>>dubious facts, we have 1/5 of those remaining today being "survivors".
>>
>>    Not surprising since most of the survivors would have been teens or
>>    young adults in 1945.  The older population was put to death for the
>>    most part.
> 
>	Mr.Mittleman says it was only the older population that was sent
>to Auschwitz and only the teenagers were left behind.

    You have any evidence to support an assertion that the selections were
    different than I assert?  For evidence to support my assertions, I
    direct you to:  Robert Jay Lifton, _The Nazi Doctors_, page 163.  On
    this page there is a statement by "Marianne F.," who arrived at
    Auschwitz at age 17.  She says:

         "They separated you [by sex] and then lined up everybody in
         fives,...and there were two men standing....One one side, was the
         doctor, one was mengele,...and on the other side was the
         ...Arbeitsfuhrer, which was the...man in charge of the work
         Kommando.  And it was,...'You go, you go by the truck.  You walk,
         you go by the truck.' ...A pattern pretty soon developed that you
         could see -- under fourteen about and over thirty-five were
         assigned to the trucks.  And not until we actually marched into
         the camps did you know exactly where the trucks had gone [to the
         gas chambers],... and this was done, I mean, very fast, very
         efficient."

    {square brackets mine, dotted elipses in the original}

    This is not by itself proof; It is but a single testimony.  However it
    is more evidence that you have provided on this point, and more
    evidence than you usually provide for your assertions.

    I note with that: you had time to clip several Juruselam One posts this
    morning, but have not yet come back with evidence to support your
    assertion that historian have switched their accounting of whether both
    Buchenwald and Bergen-Belson were extermination camps.

    What's wrong Zeyde, cat got your tongue?
                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 15:33:13 PDT 1996
Article: 48288 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 4 Jul 1996 12:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4JUL199612292717@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31dbfd7e.3653171@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> Tom Moran wrote:

         Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
         "Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
         Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.

    OK, I will.  Example one:

Less than one day later in <31dbfd7e.3653171@news.pacificnet.net>, 
tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

         Jeruselm One should stay out of our buisness. We don't need their
         Zionist practices over here any more than what we have already.

         The facts are, not only can it be shown that nothing good for the
         us or the World has ever come from our support for the Jewish
         state, but that the only thing that could be shown is that it has
         been a disaster for the U.S., and the World.  All they have are
         words and nothing else.

    You keep posting Zeyde; I'm sure those examples will keep rolling in.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 15:33:14 PDT 1996
Article: 48299 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: John F. Kennedy, neo-Nazi ?
Date: 4 Jul 1996 06:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4JUL199606195757@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31d2a3b6.738356@news.pacificnet.net> <28JUN199606562282@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31d48f26.5769761@news.pacificnet.net> <4rg7g7$p7h@news.ios.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4rg7g7$p7h@news.ios.com>, Mary Kravits  writes...

> Kennedy was a catholic,catholics commited mass murder in Span,the hUN 
>holy Romaan Empire,the crussades etc. catholic,nazi same thing. 
>catholics=nazi. Reperations should be collected from the vatican and sent 
>to Israel for the mass torment of the Jews. Evey catholic should pay a 
>fine to a Jew.

    Methinks we have a denier here pulling our collective leg with this
    series of posts.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 19:54:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48333 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Axis Bunch
Date: 4 Jul 1996 10:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4JUL199610092908@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    With apologies to Sara, Jeanne (whose first five lines I stole), and
    Sherwood Schwartz:
    ---------------------------------

    Here's the story
    of a bunch of Nazis
    who hated all those world-controlling Jooos,
    All of them had brains of air
    like their Fuhrer
    And they saluted nice, too.

    Its a story
    of a bunch of Fascists
    nostalgic for the Roman Empire days,
    They made the trains run on time
    For Il Duce
    But their army stank.

    Then one day when the Fuhrer met Benito
    And divided up their conquests over lunch.
    They signed a pact declaring non-agression
    And out of this begat the Axis Bunch.

    The Axis Bunch...


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 19:54:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Push, push, push
Date: 4 Jul 1996 08:11 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4JUL199608115015@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31dbc7b0.449451@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31dbc7b0.449451@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>     	"Hungary to Compensate Jews for Wartime Losses"
>                    N.Y.Times, July 4, 1996

    Thanks for the quick work.  You have this posted even before I got out
    of bed this morning.

>	The Government has agreed to compensate the Jewish community for
>property seized during WWII, a Jewish leader said today.
>	'This is a landmark agreement, a big step forward', said Gusztav
>Zoltai, head of the Hungarian Jewish Communities.
>	More than 600,000 of the million Jews who lived in Hungary before
>WWII were killed in the Holocasut. Today there are about 100,000 Jews
>in Hungary, including 20,000 Holocaust survivors.
>	....
>	The agreement establishes a Hungarian Jewish Heritage Foundation
>to manage the assets, ... plus 26 million dollars .... $$$$$$$$$$
>	Establishment of the foundation is subject to confirmation by
>Parliment, ... The agreement does not foresee direct restitution of
>property even if owners or decendants can be found, ..."
> 
> 
>	Well, 600,000 Jews killed? Well, sometimes its 500,000, and
>sometimes is 400,000, and sometimes 200,000.

    Well, with all the denier disinformation going around it is not
    surprising you are confused.

>	The article tells us there are 20,000 "survivors" out of the
>100,000 remaining. Seeing how it is now 1996, 50 years after the the
>dubious facts, we have 1/5 of those remaining today being "survivors".

    Not surprising since most of the survivors would have been teens or
    young adults in 1945.  The older population was put to death for the
    most part.

    What is so "dubious" about the facts?

>	It doesn't seem to have gone all that well for the Jews
>negotiating. No property is to be part of the deal and Parliment still
>has to vote on whatever was discussed. 

    I agree with you.  It's too bad too - those victims deserve so much
    more.  Of the million Jews in Hungary, the settlement works out to $26
    a person - and this after 50 years of compound interest is virtually
    nothing.  But the symbolic act means a lot.

    Thanks for the post.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul  4 22:17:08 PDT 1996
Article: 48351 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: 4 Jul 1996 08:13 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4JUL199608132479@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31da8509.893190@news.pacificnet.net> <3JUL199609415098@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>
>>>HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
>>
>>    Tom Moran's manifesto.
>>
>	Actually, Mr.Mittleman has just made a funny on the title of the
>article. What he didn't respond to was the message:
> 
>"The Holocaust promotional network's pet word."
> 
>What could be done is to do a rough survey on how many times the word
>hate comes up in Nizkor files and we could suggest HATE is, in fact,
>one of their pet words.
> 
>Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
>"Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
>Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.

    Face validity.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul  5 06:39:11 PDT 1996
Article: 48363 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!guitar.sound.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 4 Jul 1996 12:34 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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Message-ID: <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> Tom Moran wrote:

         Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
         "Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
         Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.

    OK, here is another example:

In article <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>, 
tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>Who do these people think they are getting involved with the
>American education system? These are the same people who committ
>themselves to closing down Palestinian schools and universities. Their
>only motive is to introduce Zionist propaganda into our education
>systems. And here we have this element being accomodated by this goofy
>Nizkor and it's evident idiotic staff of McVay, McCarthy and Hilary,
>and the phantom directors that finance the site.  
>... 
>In the end they try to sell us on their rhetoric by citing that
>their archives are "Straight from print-outs of news papers" and
>"studies done by experts in this field". Some of these experts would
>be the likes of the ADL, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish
>Congress and any goyem lackies.
>... 
>The fact is, other than having governmental persons submitting to
>the pushy, bluster demands of the Jews, they are in it alone. Very
>few, if any goyem organizations are actively involved in supporting or
>endorsing any of their crap. The only thing they get is cowtowing from
>persons out to save their own positions so as not have the Jews
>conspire to unseat them. No one knows it more than the Jews
>themselves.
>... 
>Jeruselem One, located in the land that shoots down children,
>routs whole populations of civilians, bombs their camps, their
>villages, spits at the U.N., and then has a myriad in their "amen
>corner" here in the U.S. getting their stuff into the major medias
>telling us how right it all is.

     Fish in a barrel, Zeyde.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul  5 06:39:12 PDT 1996
Article: 48381 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Nine Questions for Milton Kleim (Round 25)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Date: 5 Jul 1996 00:25 MST
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:48381 alt.politics.white-power:35174 alt.politics.nationalism.white:24598

>Rich Graves (rich@c2.org) wrote:
>: The man's retired. You can remove this one from the queue.

    Interesting week.  First Reverend Ron, then Miltie, and now it appears
    that Giwer is planning on sharply curtailing his posting.

    It looks like the bandwidth here will finally be back to normal.  So,
    Tommy, it appears you and Huber may be the last line of defense for the
    bigots.  Shoot your best shot!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul  5 09:44:33 PDT 1996
Article: 72010 of control
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
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Control: cancel <5JUL199600251506@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Date: 5 Jul 1996 06:23 MST
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                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul  5 14:56:11 PDT 1996
Article: 48472 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 5 Jul 1996 11:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5JUL199611424731@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <31dd4c31.5397919@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31dd4c31.5397919@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:
> 
>>-THE THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES-
>>
>>THOUGHTCRIME: 07/04/96
>>
>>BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
>>____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>	As the first seconds of July 4, 1996 ticked away, the Bradley 
>>R. Smith / CODOH (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust) 
>>website was shutdown from the World Wide Web.  The Bradley R. Smith 
>>Website was dedicated to the cause of Free Speech and especially 
>>encouraged open debate on the topic of the Holocaust.
> 
>	Cause for an eventual national holiday in Israel?

    I can't speak for Israel.  I can't speak for Nizkor, but I know their
    beliefs a bit better; I suspect that there is not overjoy at Nizkor
    from this event.  Nizkor would just as soon have denier sites up and
    running on the web where they can be easily watched.  Nizkor people
    have said many times that they support free speech.  If events unfolded
    as Widmann describes (I would like to see some additional verifications
    of this) then it is unfortunate and wrong.  Even the most descpicable
    should have access to free and unfetterd speech in the US.

    Somehow, I suspect that there are more steps to the story than Widmann
    describes.  It does not make sense for a private company to cut off a
    paying customer unless there is a financial barrier to keeping them. 
    Something is missing from the Widmann/CODOH description.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul  5 14:56:12 PDT 1996
Article: 48475 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 5 Jul 1996 13:05 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5JUL199613055611@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31dd5fb8.10396478@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>># Looks like theres going to be a celebration party at
>># Nizkor. 
>>
>>I will not party. Smith is a truly repulsive person, but he
>>should be allowed to have his web site. To the best of my
>>knowledge, and from reading this group, everybody in "Nizkor"
>>disagrees with this kind of action. But one can expect Moran
>>to lie about this - we know who we're dealing with here: a liar
>>and forger.
>>
>>Unlike "leading revisionist" Ernst Zundel, I do not believe
>>in silencing those who do not agree with me. As many people
>>have said - let the "revisionist" neo-Nazi scum be out here 
>>in the open, for all the world to see.
>>
>>
>>-Danny Keren.
> 
>	We can only wait to see what action you or Nizkor will take to
>challenge this iniquous slashing of our 1st Amendment.

    And what action are you taking, Tommy.  Other than whining about it
    here?

    Personally, I am waiting for a full story.  CODOH has enough of a
    history of spreading half-truths that I would like to hear someone else
    tell me what happened before I rush to their defense.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 08:00:38 PDT 1996
Article: 48556 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 5 Jul 1996 13:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5JUL199613105743@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31dd6063.10567679@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> 
>	Below we have the first commnert from Nizkor. Jamie's concern is
>totally focused on whether or not this affair will give "martyrdom"
>status to Bradely Smith's site. He most defitenly doesn't have a
>problem the acts connection to our First Amendment. 

    Tommy, there is no First Amendment issue here (given the facts CODOH
    has presented.)  A private company (their service providor) is not
    required by the constitution to give them net access.  Their
    relationship with their service provider is guided by contact law (and,
    of course, the content of their contract.)

    Ask Yale, he will tell you.

    On the other hand, just because their provider maybe CAN cancel them,
    that doesn't mean that it is a good idea.  Given the facts CODOH
    presented, I would say that it was a very bad idea; their providor
    should not have done it. 

    You need to go back to school and learn a little about the
    Constitution, zeyde.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 08:00:39 PDT 1996
Article: 48557 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 5 Jul 1996 13:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5JUL199613151559@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31da92b8.4395977@news.pacificnet.net> <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net> <4JUL199612343251@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31dd6263.11080075@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31dd6263.11080075@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31dd2517.262925@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>Message-ID: <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> Tom Moran wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
>>>>         "Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
>>>>         Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.
>>>>
>>>>    OK, here is another example:
>>>>
>>> 
>>>	Mr.Mittleman's simple inclusion of the identified post deleted.
>>
>>    Note that Tommy does not want us to see what he wrote.  It is included
>>    again below.
> 
>	Mr.Mittleman implies that the readers are too stupid to know that
>deleted material is right here in the thread. How would Moran go about
>hiding the martterial? He could cancel the article. But then it is
>already in the devices of others computers from which he couldn't
>extract it. Of course it was included in response posts, which Moran
>wouldn't have any control over. All those things, and Mr.Mittleman
>says Moran is trying to cover up.

    Pretty lame, zeyde.  As you probably don't know (given that you have
    trouble seeing the world from others' points of view) many people have
    newsreaders different than your own.  While your newsreader makes it
    easy to trace back the thread of a post, other readers such as mine
    (vnews) make it a bit more difficult.  So while most every lurker to
    our discussion could find your hateful, but deleted, comments, for many
    of them it is enough trouble that they wouldn't look.

    Face it, Tommy, you are worth all that much effort.

    And by the way, have you found us those Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen
    references yet?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 08:00:39 PDT 1996
Article: 48558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Education System Directed From Israel
Date: 5 Jul 1996 13:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 69
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5JUL199613190269@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net> <4rhg1v$6ga@news.enter.net> <31dd255d.333449@news.pacificnet.net> <31dd635f.11332016@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
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In article <31dd635f.11332016@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31dd255d.333449@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>>
>>>>>  >The Holocaust: A Guide for Pennsylvania Teachers
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >This guide, written in 1990 at the University of Pennsylvania aims to
>>>>>  >bring to educators basic texts on the Holocaust and related subjects
>>>>>  >along with ideas on how to bring them to the understanding of their
>>>>>  >students. All educators should look into this guide, as should anyone
>>>>>  >who is interested in getting a basic knowledge in Holocaust studies.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>>  	Who do these people think they are getting involved with the
>>>>>  American education system? 
>>>>
>>>>	Last time I looked, the University of Pennsylvania was located in 
>>>>*gasp* Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.  It was just west of the Schuykill River and 
>>>>just south of Market Street.  What right anybody from California has to protest a 
>>>>private university located in Pennsylvania and with a 230 year history of 
>>>>involvement in education in Pennsylvania writing a guide for Pennsylvania 
>>>>teachers is beyond me.
>>>>
>>>>	--YFE
>>> 
>>>	I wonder if this fool knows whether or not Pennsylvania is in the
>>>United States of America or not.
>>
>>    I wonder if the zeyde fool realizes that his own post up above shows
>>    that the University of Pennsylvania was recommending curriculum only
>>    for the State of Pennsylvania.  It was the zeyde fool who
>>    mis-interpreted this to mean "the American education system."  It was
>>    the zeyde fool who is having trouble with his geography here.  
> 
>	Evidentally Mr.Mittleman doesn't think that precedences set in
>one state can spread to other states. Pennsylvania is in the United
>States of America.

    Sure is possible, but that would require legislatures and school boards
    in the other states to decide to adopt this curriculum.  And as you
    know, in most states the Jewish population is under two percent.  So
    the "goy" population would be making the decision.  I trust them to
    decide the right things, don't you zeyde?

>	Perhaps when Mr.Mittleman gets through going over this fraction
>of the post he'll dare to go onto and make comment on the other
>majority portion. 

    Sure, the majority of the post read:

>>>>>  >This guide, written in 1990 at the University of Pennsylvania aims to
>>>>>  >bring to educators basic texts on the Holocaust and related subjects
>>>>>  >along with ideas on how to bring them to the understanding of their
>>>>>  >students. All educators should look into this guide, as should anyone
>>>>>  >who is interested in getting a basic knowledge in Holocaust studies.

    Sounds good to me.  I have no problem with this.

    By the say Tommy, have you had a chance to check out your references on
    Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen yet?  Or are you going to let your
    assertion stand unsupported?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 12:40:40 PDT 1996
Article: 48648 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 5 Jul 1996 21:47 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5JUL199621471194@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <4rk1st$kho@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4rk1st$kho@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) writes...
>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) writes:
>>-THE THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES-
>>
>>THOUGHTCRIME: 07/04/96
>>
>>BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
>>____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>	Bradley R. Smith had received uninterrupted service from 
>>Valleynet Communications, his web provider.  Valleynet was recently 
>>purchased by an eastern company, ProtoSource Corporation.  For 
>>various reasons the Valleynet name was being dropped and changed to 
>>ProtoSource Network.  On the morning of July 4th, ProtoSource 
> 
>For starters, this is demonstrably false. The site was renamed from
>valleynet.com to psnw.com because of a barratrous trademark challenge from
>the slimeball who runs valleynet.net, NOT because of a buyout. Only the
>InterNIC's stupid trademark policy and the threatened grounding of the
>valleynet.com DNS service explains the name change. I'm sure they didn't
>exactly relish the idea of having all their customers' email bounce
>because they'd lost their domain name.
> 
>Oh yeah, and they did give notice. That was a lie, too.
> 
>In the version of CODOH's message that was forwarded to Don Black's
>Stormfront list, http://www.stormfront.org/, they took pains to point out
>not only that the supposedly relevant buyout was "eastern," but also that
>one of the managers was supposedly Jewish. Why was this relevant, Mr.
>Widmann, and how did you know?

    This makes me think: wouldn't it be amusing if this whole episode was
    simply an innocent snafu that occured because of the name change and
    that a polite request to the system manager to check on it would clear
    it all up on Monday?

    I wonder if those arseholes went ballistic before considering the
    obvious cause of the problem: domain name change screw-ups?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 12:40:41 PDT 1996
Article: 48650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What in the world are Jews doing bowing to white christian trash ?
Date: 5 Jul 1996 21:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5JUL199621364635@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rg6f2$p7h@news.ios.com> 
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article <4rg6f2$p7h@news.ios.com>, Mary Kravits 
>wrote:
> 
>>  I though we all understood, NO DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST ! We are Jews not 
>> goyem,so stop going down to their level. Don't beg them for 
>> understanding. They are nothing more than anti Semetic animals. The 
>> germans scum are the lowest of the bunch. Tell them to take their filthy 
>> bible,the cross and jesus(the bastard) and shove them up their aryan 
>> asses.
> 
>Mary:
> 
>This group is called alt. revisionism. It is for the discussion of
>revisionism. If you do not wish to participate in this discussion, don't
>read it. Or post here.
> 
>If you have something constructive to say about the Holocaust, please post it.
> 
>Many more people participate in this discussion besides Jews and Germans.
>And personally, I believe calling Jesus a bastard is a stain on OUR
>religion, not theirs.
> 
>respectfully,
>Sara
> 
>P.S. Hey, Giwer & Moran! Here are two jews DISAGREEING!!!

    Sara, according to Rich Graves, Mary is actually Hub*r.

    Tis just a troll.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 12:40:41 PDT 1996
Article: 48675 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: 5 Jul 1996 21:53 MST
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In article <4rk9hs$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    you [Moran] might consider offering some support for your assertion that
>>    historians have changed their interpretation of whether both Buchenwald
>>    and Bergen-Belson were extermination camps or not.  it has been awhile
>>    now that you have been avoiding this and some of your precious lurkers
>>    might begin to sense you are being less than fully forthcoming with
>>    them, zeyde.
> 
>	You folks keep trying to substitute historians for the war crimes trials
>themselves.  It is clear these historians have only served the function
>of eliminating the most bizarre aspects.

    I thought you went away?  I enjoyed it here yesterday without any of
    your spam garbage.  Hasn't Gord McFee ousted you yet?  What IS taking
    him so long?

>	They are only individuals.  For the trials, there were investigators
>from four countries, a veritable army of investigators which found all
>kinds of incredible things including mass execution be gassing.  

    Historians (as a group) had/have:
    1. The luxury of time
    2. Strong analytic and research skills
    3. Access to much more information than the trial investigators had
    All of this helps significantly in rooting out information and
    generating analysis.

>	All these historians have done is "conclude" that it must have all
>happened in Russian liberated lands as such things could not be found in
>places where there was access.  

    Incorrect.  There is considerable evidence behind their conclusions,
    not simply lack of evidence for alternative conclusions, you troll.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 13:14:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48698 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: 6 Jul 1996 08:15 MST
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In article <31de6e70.282094@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    Now, you might consider offering some support for your assertion that
>>    historians have changed their interpretation of whether both Buchenwald
>>    and Bergen-Belson were extermination camps or not.  it has been awhile
>>    now that you have been avoiding this and some of your precious lurkers
>>    might begin to sense you are being less than fully forthcoming with
>>    them, zeyde.
> 
>	I don't know to what degree "percious lurkers" might be following
>what everever your focused on. I don't have any problem with lurkers.
>I treat them with respect. You can point out whatever you want to
>point out, and by so doing you can expose yourself. Maybe along with
>the clarification I'm going to ask you for right now, you would like
>to explain why you are bringing up a topic that was from another post
>that has nothing to do with what is at hand. I believe you have
>included it with a response to another unrelated post also. 
>                         ================
> 
>	First I will clarify my position. I say that in the early years
>after the war, even unto into the fifties, Bergen-Belsen and
>Buchenwald were put forth in publications as being extermination
>camps, and at this time these camps are held as never having been
>extermination camps.

    Can your provide any specific pointers to a publication that did this
    so I can see for myself that these camps were called extermination
    camps?

>	Now if you have some special application that you need as to
>"historians" that is your specialty. I don't think I ever mentioned
>the word "historians". I'll clarify the specifics as to what I am
>talking about as, referrences in any kind of publication that posed
>these two camps as extermination camps.	

    I note that you did not say "historian" in your initial post.  The
    distinction is important to me.  Sometimes Journalists get the
    terminology - and the facts - wrong when they write about the
    Holocaust.  Just as you have seen journalists say 4,000,000 died at
    Auschwitz, I too have seen the same thing.  Historians sometimes, but
    very rarely, make such blatant mistakes.

    So, I would like to see for myself which publications made these
    statements.  I would like to determine for myself whether [a] there was
    a change in what was conventionally presented to have happened in the
    Holocaust, [b] usage of terminology changed over time (did they
    actually say extermination, or did they say killing or gassing or some
    other such thing), [c] that it was written by a journalist who got the
    facts screwed up, or [d] no such publication as you claim exists.

>	As to their status right now, I would refer you to the Simon
>Wiesenthal Center site, "Response to Revisionist Arguments", No.12.
>"Didn't Simon wiesenthal himself state that there were no
>extermination camps in Germany?" We will notice that Simon Wiesenthal
>did not word it like 'Isn't it true that at one time camps in Germany,
>including Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald, were once put forth as being
>extermination camps and now this past assertion is not held, even by
>Mr.Wiesenthal himself?'

    Correct, there were no "extermination camps" in Germany.  The
    extermination camps were in the East in Poland.  There were many camps
    in Germany but these were concentration camps.  Some people died in
    these German camps.  There were limited experiments with gassing, there
    probably were limited experiments with human soap, so some people did
    but in general these were not extermination camps.

>	Maybe you can employ some special cant to say why Wiesenthal
>would even heve a question like this.

    Yes.  It is a common denier tactic to say that "even Simon Wiesenthal
    claims there were no extermination camps in Germany during WW II."  If
    a denier makes the above statement with no qualifier that the
    extermination camps were in Poland, it appears to the naive reader that
    Simon Wiesenthal is admitting that there were no extermination camps. 
    SWC has the question and answer in place to address this denier point.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 17:02:11 PDT 1996
Article: 48708 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 6 Jul 1996 13:20 MST
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[posted/emailed]

In article <4rk1ov$74m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) writes...
>Revisionism Accurately Defined
>-submitted for the edification of all
>by Bruce Hagen
> 
>A PRECIS OF HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM
> 
>Observers of the debate about the Holocaust may come away with some
>grotesque misimpressions about Holocaust Revisionism from the postings
>that appear on the internet, pro and con.  Here is what Holocaust
>Revisionism is and is not:

    As you are offering us a "precis" of Holocaust revisonism, might you
    tell us a little about yourself so that we know whether you speak for
    the bulk of the revisionists out there?  Is Bruce Hagen your real name? 
    Have you done any Holocaust revisionist work yourself?  Are you aligned
    - or a member - of any specific group practicing or promoting Holocaust
    revisionism?

    By what reasoning or authority do you speak for "revisionists"?

    By the way, in my response to you I speak for no one but myself (and
    anyone who subsequently chooses to associate themselves iwth my
    remarks.)

>1 - Revisionists object to the terminology "THE Holocaust," which by
>implication suggests it was unique, monumental, over-arching, perhaps even
>the central historical event of our century if not epoch.  In fact there

    Agreed.  In a thesis the first mention should define which holocaust
    the writer is referring to.  Once this has been done, it seems
    reasonable to use "Holocaust" for subsequent mentions.

>have been many holocausts over the centuries, a good portion of them in
>our own Twentieth century.  The Jewish Holocaust is merely one of them. 
>From the point of view of the world as a whole it is far from the greatest
>or most terrible, Hollywood to the contrary notwithstanding.  A marked
>improvement in both accuracy and objectivity can be achieved if the term
>"Jewish Holocaust" is substituted for the term "THE Holocaust."

    Yes, there have been many holocausts and they continue to this day. 
    No, "Jewish Holocaust" is not an improved term.  Such a term diminishes
    the suffering and deaths of non-Jews (5 to 6 million or so of them.)  I
    prefer the term "Nazi Holocaust" naming the perpetrators rather than
    the victims.  I note that some Jewish organizations might disagree with
    me on this point, but using the term "Jewish Holocaust" denotes a
    special significance to the Jewish deaths which, I believe, is
    something many revisionists are opposed to.  I find it interesting that
    you support the idea that there is something special about the Jewish
    victims over the other victims.  This seems to set you apart from other
    revisionists.

>2 - Having stated the previous it is therefore obvious that Revisionists
>do not "deny" the Jewish Holocaust as their critics claim.  (Though of
>course it is understandable why those critics assert this;  if, in a
>debate about the shape of the earth, you can successfully pin on someone
>the label  "flat-earther," you've scored big points even if what they say
>is very far from the absurdity of such a posture.)  Revisionists are, in
>fact, Holocaust  DIMINISHERS, not deniers.  They are questioners about

    This may be true.  However, if revisionists deny specific aspects of
    the Nazi Holocaust and this denial results in diminished totals, I am
    not so sure denier is an incorrect label.

    Personally, I use the labels a bit differently than you.  I use the
    term "revisionist" to mean one who uses historiographical methods to
    question aspects of the Holocaust, and "denier" to mean one who denies
    aspects of the Holocaust independent of reasonable anaysis of the
    evidence.  [For this essay I will attempt to use your terminology
    though.]

>what they believe are significant exaggerations in the Holocaust tale, and

    "Tale" is a value-loaded term.  It denotes make believe.  It would be
    more value neutral for you to say "their incorrect Holocaust thesis".

>they are critics of the view that somehow this historical event is beyond
>discussion on pain of being placed in the category of child-molester or
>worse, shunned by society, even fined and imprisoned by some so-called
>free countries in the western world.   

    The molar conventional view of the Holocaust is adhered to every
    Holocaust researcher in the world who holds a Ph.D. in History or
    related social science field and who has had specific academic training
    in Jewish history or 20th century European history.  Given that, the
    molar conventional view of the Holocaust is so well established that
    this null hypothesis is commonly referred to as "fact".  Most all
    conventional historiography takes place among questions within this
    conventional molar view.

    Given that, if one wishes to put forward an alternative hypotheses that
    questions the established molar null hypothesis (aka fact), one needs
    to put forward a convincing argument for their hypothesis which takes
    into account the vast amount of evidence that has been amassed to
    support the null hypothesis.  The phrase "extraordinary claims demand
    extraordinary evidence" aptly describes the status of the revisionist
    question of the conventional view.

    To my knowledge, no revisionist *has even come close* to putting
    forward such an alternative hypothesis.  When a revisionist puts
    forward an argument which clearly is not sufficient to counter the null
    hypothesis yet wants his argument to be taken seriously, then that
    revisionist often meets with the ridicule you describe above.  [Two
    points: [1] Many of the people I describe here I would lump in my
    category of deniers, and [2] I disagree with the actions of imprisoning
    one for doing bad research or for unpopular political speech.]

>3 - Revisionists do not deny that there was much Jewish suffering during
>WW II, that there were many Jews who had property confiscated wrongfully,
>that many Jews died of disease or starvation in terrible conditions or
>were killed, that there were terrible brutalities and atrocities committed
>against Jews by Germans and others.  None of this do Revisionists deny.

    There are some anti-semitic deniers out there who deny portions of the
    above, but I acknowledge that the revisionist movement is multi-faceted
    and that those deniers do not speak for all revisionists.  It might
    help the credibility of the revisionists who buy into the above
    paragraph if they joined into the criticism of the anti-semitic deniers
    who - without valid evidence - contradict the statements above.

>Revisionists do diminish the impact of these facts by pointing out that
>WWII was the bloodiest, deadliest, most atrocity ridden conflict in the
>history of man and that there was criminal behavior on all sides.  One
>need merely mention Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki,  the deadly carpet
>bombing of German and Japanese working class living areas, the Soviet rape
>of Germany in their 1945 advance, the treatment of German civilians and
>German POW's after the war.  One could go on almost ad infinitum in this
>recitation of atrocities.  Fifty million - some say sixty million - died
>as a result of the war.  Was there more criminal behavior on one side than
>the other?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  Many revisionists would probably tend
>to say no, because:

    Agreed.  Note that none of the other WWII atrocities you mentioned
    involved intended genocide against a particular peoples.  Nevertheless,
    many people for all areas of the world suffered greatly.

>4 - Contrary to Holocaust Mythology there was no attempt by Nazis, or

    Again, "mythology" is value-laden.  You are simply putting forward an
    alternative hypothesis.

>anyone else, to exterminate the Jews.  There was an attempt, largely

    There is considerable evidence that the Nazis made an attempt to
    exterminate the Jews.  Now you may disagree with this thesis, but to do
    so legitimately, you need to address the evidence that exists in favor
    of it.  To simply call that hypothesis a "mythology" invites ridicule.
    to start, you might want to address the existence of the Wansee
    Protocols and Himler's Posnan speeches.  Once you address those, there
    are a myriad of other pieces of evidence to support the conventional
    hypothesis on this point. 

>successful in the areas controlled by the Axis, to expel the Jews from
>Europe.  It was done brutally, hatefully, without compensation, without
>any  legal nicety.  In the context of the 1990's it was a terrible
>undertaking.  In a different context, the context of European history over
>the last two millennia, the expulsion of the Jews from this region or that
>region was not uncommon.  Historically there seems to be something about
>the Jews that brings forth a plenitude of animosity on the part of people
>amongst whom they live.  

    There was an attempt to expel Jews from Europe.  At some point, though,
    that attempt became an attempt to exterminate.  The Nazi's did not need
    ot set up a half dozen extermination camps in Poland if their intent
    was simply expulsion.  Considerable specific evidence exists (both
    testimonial and physical) to the existence of these extermination
    camps.  Such evidence must be countered if one wishes to put forward a
    successful alternative hypothesis that intentional expermination on a
    mass scale did not occur.

>5 - What is the basis for Revisionists asserting there was no attempted
>genocide of the Jews?  The linch-pin in this argument is simply that there
>were no gas chambers, none, zero, nada.  There is no evidence of gas
>chambers that an objective person can find credible.  There is growing
>credible evidence that what purport to be the remains of gas chambers at
>Auschwitz and elsewhere are frauds, less believable than Potemkin
>villages.  There are no documents, no orders, no planning, no blueprints,
>no photographs, no autopsies,  nothing that is definitively or even
>reasonably credible to support gas chambers.   It is not believable that
>an enterprise as massive as the extermination through gassing of six
>million people in two or three years in a chaotic environment would not
>leave behind some physical evidence, some documentary remains.  And yet
>there isn't any.  As Professor Arno Mayer, the Princeton historian (who is
>Jewish),  has said, "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once
>rare and unreliable."  He wouldn't make such an admission if any credible
>evidence existed.  And he was writing in the late 1980's.

    This is the key paragraph of your precis.  It simply dismisses a vast
    array of materials which do exist and do demonstrate the existence of
    the gas chambers.  Such evidence is commonly presented in
    alt.revisionism.  Such evidence has been presented in dozens if not
    hundreds of books written by historians about the Holocaust.

    There exist remains of gas chambers.  There is exist blueprints of gas
    chambers (not the blueprint is available at Nizkor - I will search out
    the url for you if you request).  There exist many Nazi documents
    discussion the construction and use of the gas chambers.  There exist
    procurement requisitions for zyklon b which are out of line with the
    amount needed for delousing.  There exists testimony from Nazis, from
    non-Jewish prisoners, and from Jewish prisoners.  There exists Nazi
    testimony that is both contemporary and modern.  There exists
    correspondence among Nazis discussing operations at the camps.  Much
    (most?) of this evidence is most definitely "reasonable credible."  It
    has been accepted by most every historian who has studied the Holocaust
    (Mayer may well be an exception.)

    Refuting the null hypothesis requires much more than the handwaving you
    are doing.  Refuting the null hypothesis requires an immense amount of
    refutation of an immense amount of independent evidence.  No
    revisionist (save maybe Mayer) has even attempted such an undertaking. 
    And remember, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." 
    No one - including Mayer - has come close to doing this.  Even with
    your handwaving above, most every Holocaust hisorian in the world still
    regards the gas chambers and the extermination camps as "fact".  Why is
    this do you think?

>6 - What does exist - as Revisionists are as aware as anyone - are, by the
>tens or even hundreds of thousands, testimonies and confessions.  Many, if
>not most, of the testimonies are preposterous, preternatural, not in
>keeping with the laws of the physical world.  The confessions are
>typically made by persons seeking desperately to curry favor with their
>captors or their jailers, to save their lives and the lives of their
>families in the prostrate world of utterly defeated Nazi Germany.  Most
>are "coerced" confessions, as in "sign this or we'll pull some more of
>your fingernails out.  Or we'll turn your wife and children over to the
>Russians."

    As historians who do qualitative research know (and acknowledge even in
    the area of the Holocaust), testimonial evidence is problematic. 
    Historians and social scientists who use testimonial evidence are
    careful in thier use of it.  Individual recollections may well be
    wrong, or imprecise, or laden with opinion not borne out by facts. 
    Individual recollections may be colored by political positions, fear,
    popular opinion, or other defects.

    However, good historians can take testimonial evidence from many
    witnesses and, combined with physical and archival evidence (direct
    observation, photographs, documents, etc.), weave a mosaic which
    describes molar information.  Therefore, it is difficult to use
    testimony to conclude what happened on day x in camp y to person z. 
    However, it is possible by taking testimony from many people at camp y
    and comparing that testimony (as a whole) to the physical and archival
    evidence about camp y and conclude what - in general - happened there.

    That is how good historians have used testimony to establish the molar
    "facts" of the Holocaust.  Showing that a particular person's testimony
    about a particular event is in part in error does nothing to diminish
    this overall mosaic.  What a revisionist could legitimately do is to
    build a different mosaic by weaving together vast amounts of testimony
    and physical and archival evidence.  I am unaware of any revisionist
    who has done that to successfully put forward a reasonable alternative
    hypothesis regarding gas chambers.  I am only aware of revisionists
    attempting the first fallacious procedure.

>7.  Also existing are testimonies of survivors of the concentration camps,
>of camp personnel, of nearby civilians who had some connection or other
>with the camps, testimonies which completely contradict the notion that
>massive extermination programs were ongoing.  All of these testimonies are
>of course discounted and denigrated because they do not further
>Holocaustery. And then there are the aerial photographs made during the
>war by allied fly-overs of Auschwitz and other camps which lend no support
>whatever to the Holocaust story.

    Such as?  Note, if a nearby townsperson was unaware of gas chambers,
    and if there is considerable evidence of gas chambers inside the camp
    independent of what that townsperson says, then this is not reason to
    doubt the existence of the gas chambers.  Rather it is reason to
    consider that maybe the Nazis did a good job of keeping nearby
    civilians in the dark.  (I note there are other explanations possible
    as well.)

    All of these testimonies become part of the mosaic.  I can't address
    your assertions here directly unless you specifically cite them.

>8 - Why would so many people lie? is the question invariably put to
>Revisionists.  Some lie or abet the lie because it is quite profitable. 

    Interesting assertion.  And you evidence is...

>There is no business like Shoah Business, said one Jewish observer some
>years ago in a candid moment.  (How many hundreds of millions of dollars
>have been made from Holocaust films and TV programs?)  Others lie because

    Probably a lot.  What does that have to do with historiographical
    analysis?  Do historians share in the profits from all of these films? 
    Except for some rare examples, I think not.

>it is helpful to Israel, or for any of thousands of other perfectly

    It is true that it would be unpopular in Israel for a historian to
    adjoin an alternative hypothesis regarding the molar view of the
    Holocaust.  But academics are like cats - you can't herd them - and
    among all the historians in the world, some of them would cling to a
    point of view unpopular in Israel (maybe simply because it was
    unpopular in Israel) if there was a fact and evidence base for them to
    grab onto.  Many academics are not pro-semites.  And many academics are
    intellectually honest and will go whereever the evidence takes them.

>understandable reasons.  Lying, or mythologizing, is a common human trait
>according to Joseph Campbell.  Many others among the testifiers are not

    Who is he?

>lying.  They believe sincerely in what they proclaim about the gas
>chambers, about having seen them, about having seen the victims, about
>having seen the smoke rise from the stacks, etc. etc.  They are "honest
>and true believers" (as Elizabeth Loftus would put it) in the myth because
>it is important to them and to the Jewish people that the myth survive. 

    Or, quite possibly, because what they are recounting is accurate.

>The Holocaust has become the unifying myth of modern Jewry, as we all
>know.  Even Jews who believe in the Holocaust will admit this if they are
>honest.  Some people believe in Jesus, some in Mohammed, some in the
>efficacy of crystals, some in the Jewish Holocaust Myth.  Revisionists for

    Not a good analogy.  The other items here require faith.  Accepting the
    null hypothesis regarding the Holocaust simply requires analysis of
    historical data.

>the most part are non-believers in mythology.

    So, for the most part, are academics.

>9 - There were no gas chambers but there were many Jews who died or were
>killed.  They were executed by the thousands for opposing German advances
>toward the east, for partisan activities connected with that opposition,

    [1] I have argued that your first premise here is specious and
    incorrect.
    [2] You are making your second assertion here without any evidence to
    support it.

>for numerous other reasons perhaps none of which we today, or even most
>Germans of the 1940's, would accept as honorable.  Jews by the tens of
>thousands died in the concentration camps of deadly epidemics of disease,
>they died in the latter stages of the war of starvation when Germany was
>collapsing.  (Professor Mayer, a rare historian, has admitted many more

    Note that procurement requisitions show that the SS ate well in those
    camps even in the latter days of the war.

>Jews died this way than were executed.)   How many died during the war?  A

    Mayer has put forward a hypothesis which most historians do not accept. 
    He has yet to convince the majority of the historical community to
    accept his hypotheses as the standard.

>lot.  Most Revisionists would probably say  half a million, perhaps as
>many as a million.  But not six million.  Too many survived the war for

    And do you revisionists have any demographic data on which to base this
    estimate?  Or is it simply a number pulled out of the air?

>that number to be anything but part of the Jewish Holocaust Myth.  If a

    Again, do you have any demographic data to support this assertion?

>million did die it was but two per cent of the total slaughter of World
>War II.  That's the reality of the Jewish Holocaust.  Two per cent.  98%
>of the blood bath of World War II involved other than Jews.  Why,

    Note your 2 percent is based on your estimate of One million Jews made
    just above.  But you offered no evidence or support for that estimate.
    If twelve million civilians (the conventional estimate) died in the
    Nazi Holocaust, then it was a large portion of the civilian deaths
    during the war.  But all sides were responsible for many civilian
    deaths.

>Revisionists ask, is almost the sole concentration today on Jewish deaths?

    And I ask, why did you up top decide to call this the "Jewish
    Holocaust"?

> Why has the Jewish Holocaust become "the" event of the 1930'S and 1940's
>around which all others revolve including even World War II itself?

    By what basis do you demonstrate that this is so?

>10 - The truth about what Revisionists claim, in summary, is this:   1)
>The Jewish Holocaust is but one of many Holocausts even in the twentieth
>century;  2) There were no gas chambers and no attempt by the Germans to
>exterminate Jewry, expulsion being very different from extermination;  3)
>The common figure of six million is too large by 500% at least;  4) World
>War II was a slaughterhouse of unprecedented proportions for everyone
>involved not just Jews, who made up perhaps 2% of the total fatalities.

    Yes, this is what you have claimed.  You have provided little or no
    support for your assertions though.  You are putting forward an
    alternative hypothesis to what most every historian accepts as true. 
    You need to provide extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary
    claims.  You fail to do so.  Every "revisionist" has failed to do so. 
    No revisionist has come close.  

    Mayer has put forward some hypootheses on narrow questions which
    deserve legitimate consideration.  Your hypothesis is much broader than
    Mayer's and probably does not belong in the same discussion as his.

>11 - In 50 or 100 years, when the Holocaust Myth has met its proper
>demise, what Revisionists believe today will be standard historical canon
>from which only cranks and religious zealots will dissent.

    It follows from your premises, but you have not come even close to
    supporting your premises.

>Bruce L. Hagen

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 17:02:11 PDT 1996
Article: 48723 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,can.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Horrible Racist Comic At WWW.RESIST.COM
Date: 6 Jul 1996 07:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6JUL199607442913@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4q38ch$a5h@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <4rl3ld$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:332596 alt.politics.white-power:35370 alt.politics.nationalism.white:24749 alt.discrimination:49793 can.politics:56334 alt.revisionism:48723

>>In article <4retct$dog@news.campus.mci.net>, daniel11@appstate.campus.mci.net (Daniel Clinton) wrote:
> 
>>>See, the US has this thing called the First Amendment. It says that
>>>anybody who has a viewpoint is entitled to express it any damn way
>>>they choose.
> 
>>The First Amendment prohibited destructive lying from its very beginning. That 
>>makes any racist propaganda calling for violence illegal.

    The First Amendment does not say this.  All that is says is that
    Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech.  This has been
    interpreted by the Supreme Court to mean that the government must not
    limit speech, but private individuals (and companies) have a bit wider
    swath.

    So, to the first point:  "Anybody who has a viewpoint is entitled to
    express it any damn way they choose."  If I won a newspaper or am an
    ISP, I am in no way required to make space available for you to express
    your viewpoint.

    So, to the second point: Your two sentences are non-sequiturs.  Yes,
    the First Amendment does not protect libel or slander.  It does not
    prevent lying in political speech.  For example, take your less
    favorite of the Republicans and Democrats and note what they say about
    your more favorite.  There are lots of lies and half truths in there. 
    Some of it you may determine is destructive.  Most all of it is
    protected speech.

    Racist propoganda is legal.  Speach calling for incitment of violence
    is illegal whether or not it is racist.

>>Libel and slander are in the criminal code. You could take racists to court 
>>for slandering you.

    Libel and slander, I believe, are torts not crimes.  They are not in
    the criminal code.  However, you can take anyone (racist or not) to
    court for slandering you.  They can't get jail time for it, but they
    can be required to pay restitution.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 17:02:12 PDT 1996
Article: 48738 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Inquiry regarding the closure of the CODOH / Brad Smith web-site
Date: 6 Jul 1996 15:34 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 191
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6JUL199615344480@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    [public letter to psnw emailed to admin@psnw.com,
    jamie@voyager.net, dvdthomas@aol.com and posted to
    alt.revisionism]

    Dear Sirs:   (Rick Horowitz?)

    As you may know, individuals from CODOH have been posting on the
    alt.revisionism usenet newsgroup information suggesting that psnw
    is censoring CODOH's website by shutting down access to space
    rented to Bradley Smith from CODOH.  As the regular readership of
    alt.revisionism is very interested in free speech issues,
    especially free speech issues dealing with Holocaust revisionism,
    anti-semitism, and neo-Naziism, I am writing to inquire as to
    whether CODOH's assertion that censorship tool place is correct
    and, if so, to put forward my opinion on the matter.

    First, let me present to you what David Thomas from CODOH has
    publicly posted so you know what they are saying:

From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CODOH and Valleynet/PSNW
Date: 6 Jul 1996 16:37:58 -0400
Message-ID: <4rmir6$4ne@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

A number of interpretations are being offered regarding the summary
termination of CODOH's service by the ISP referenced in the title.  The
following is a summary of what actually has taken place.

(1)  Valleynet was purchased by a larger company some months ago.

(2)  The domain name "valleynet.com" turned out to be claimed by some
service in the eastern part of the U.S. and Valleynet's new owners decided
not to fight the challenge.

(3)  On July 1st, the URLs at valleynet became accessible either with
http://www.valleynet.com/xxx _OR_ http://www.psnw.com/xxx.  The
"valleynet" domain name is to be continued through August according to
email messages from the server.

(4)  On July 3rd, at approximately midnight, Valleynet/PSNW disconnected
CODOH's service with no notice, prior or subsequent, and no reasons given.

(5)  In the month preceding this occurrence, Bradley Smith twice purchased
additional on-line storage space from Valleynet for the CODOH site.  5
megs on the first occasion, 10 megs on the second when the 5 turned out
not to have been installed.  A standard price was given for the storage
space and accepted by Mr. Smith.  At no time did anyone indicate a problem
with the size of the site or conflict with any of the server's conditions.
 This was true as well for discussions I had with their tech support--it
seemed to them to have been an oversight, things were confused with the
changes being made.

(6)  Since termination, there has been no comment on the part of
Valleynet/PSNW beyond saying that at some point in some manner CODOH could
obtain copies of its files.

(7)  A formal request is being made of Valleynet/PSNW to extend the
courtesy (?) of allowing CODOH to purchase a one-page address pointer for
30 days in an attempt to preserve the body of users cultivated over the
past nine months.

(8)  The main contact at Valleynet/PSNW has been:  [Reply-to:
admin@psnw.com (Rick Horowitz - Division Manager)].

Any details contrary to the above are incorrect, unless the server decides
to discuss it further with others than they have chosen to do with CODOH. 
It is certainly legal for them to select whomever they wish for customers,
and CODOH offers no argument against that position.  The method of
termination was/is however, another matter.  It has been handled shabbily
to this point, to say the least.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________


    Is Mr. Thomas's characterization of the issue correct?  Has the
    web-page been eliminated due to content of the page, or is there
    an non-content contractual matter which led to the decision to
    remove the page and account?  Or is there another story wholely
    unrelated to these issues?

    I ask these questions not as a member of CODOH or for that matter
    a supporter of CODOH (my particular position on revisionism would
    be clear to you if you read a day's worth of alt.revisionism
    posts, but my position should be immaterial to my inquiry.) but as
    a member of the internet community who is very concerned about
    free and open speech.

    I fully understand that CODOH has no First Amendment right to
    access to psnw; I fully understand that all that is legally at
    play is their contract with you and any content rules which are
    referred to in that contract.

    However, I am concerned about this from a bigger picture.  I
    believe that it is important to provide revisionists, deniers,
    anti-semites, and nazis full access to put forward their messages. 
    I believe that truth and public good are well served by doing so. 
    I believe that limitations of such speech based on content will
    lead to strenghening the positions of these groups rather than
    weakening their positions, as one might think at first.

    I want to share with you a public post written yesterday by Jamie
    McCarthy, one of the Web-masters at Nizkor.  As you may know,
    Nizkor is a leading web-site in combating Holocaust denial.  They
    take the point of view that the best place for a Nazi (or
    revisionist in this case) is out in the open where we can see what
    they are up to and counter their actions.  That if we force these
    people back into the closet, their work festers out of sight of
    those who could easily counter it.  Mr. McCarthy makes this
    argument far better than I can.  He wrote:

From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 13:21:17 -0400
Message-ID: 

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>    Looks like theres going to be a celebration party at Nizkor. Lots
> of e-mail to and from the usual, telling each other what a great day
> it is.

Au contraire.  I'm composing a reply to one of DvdThomas's articles
>from  a day or two ago, but now, with the fuss that's going to result,
he has the perfect excuse to ignore what I'm going to say.  It's a
frustrating annoyance for me (just as it is for them, though not to
the same degree of course).

Plus, they get to claim martyr status, and there's no really good
counterargument to that (assuming their provider didn't have a good
reason for kicking them off).  I imagine CODOH is quite happy over
earning the right to put a big "CENSORED" banner in red letters at the
top of their home page, when their next site gets set up.  Not to
mention the nice-sounding rhetoric that Mr. Smith can put into his
newsletters for the next six to twelve months.  "Dear Friends, it was
a harrowing experience on the internet this month, when on the day of
our nation's independence, the First Amendment was stricken a cruel
blow..."

Whether they think the martyrdom is worth the extra work it'll take to
move the site, I don't know.  If I were in their position, I'd
probably be celebrating -- being censored is a red badge of courage
for revisionists.

What I do know is that it's an annoying situation for me and for
Nizkor.  From our perspective, nothing really changes.  They get
kicked off one provider, so they move the site to another and start up
again.  Big deal.  They have to do a lot of work to update their site,
we have to do a little work to update ours (mental note: edit ftp.pl
to autocorrect URLs to whatever their new site will be, and search
/web for valleynet\.com).  Life will go on pretty much as usual,
except now they'll have that big red "CENSORED" banner.

Posted;  emailed to CODOHmail@aol.com.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Hate mail will be posted.

    So, I am hopeful of several things.

    1. If in fact your actions were taken simply to censor a site you
    thought was not in good taste or in the interests of psnw, I urge
    you to consider Mr. McCarthy's arguments and reconsider your
    decision.  I do believe you are doing anti-naziism and
    anti-Holocaust denial harm in your actions.

    2. As this topic has become one of public discussion and debate in
    alt.revisionism, I urge psnw to put forward a public statement as
    to [a] the facts as it knows them, and [b] its position on this
    matter.  This could be done so via post, or I would be happy to
    post an e-mail reply to me that it intended for public
    consumption.

    3. I am hopeful that you will choose to respond to me.  If you
    direct me to keep a response private, I will do so.  If you allow
    me to make a response public, I will do that too.

    Thank you very much for your attention.

    Dr. Daniel Mittleman, Research Scientist
    Center for the Management of Information
    The University of Arizona
    Tucson, AZ  85721

=============================================================================
|   daniel david mittleman   -    danny@arizona.edu    -   (520) 621-2932   |
|   center for the management of information at the university of arizona   |
=============================================================================


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 17:32:34 PDT 1996
Article: 48741 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but might not have been
Date: 6 Jul 1996 08:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6JUL199608013058@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rl1bu$mpk@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rlmov$oho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4rlmov$oho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
> 
>May I then humbly and politely request that you shove your surmise up your
>characterization.  ;-)

    Let me add one more question to my previous post.  If I were to inquire
    at CODOH's ISP for more information, where exactly should I write?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 18:42:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: 6 Jul 1996 14:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 122
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6JUL199614361575@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31d7d889.1586508@news.pacificnet.net> <1JUL199620395531@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31d913fe.2249453@news.pacificnet.net> <31dec767.15997235@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31dec767.15997235@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>	It is obvious you are deranged Mr.Mittleman. Your a waste of
>time. Its also obvious that you post things from one article to
>another in order to try and take attention off the topic at hand. This
>is the last address you get. The only thing that will be forthcoming
>to any of your posts that are directed to me will be referrals to a
>post containing a connotated recap of this sequence and a few other
>examples of your foolish practices that will show your imput as being
>absolutely useless and not meriting any response.

    Funny you should be so angry, zeyde.  I thought my response to you
    (which is attached in full below) was on topic, not too rude (given
    your penchant for HATE HATE HATE), and if anything too respectful of
    potential legitimacy of your point of view.

    And I note your anger at my taking discussion about Buchenwald and
    Bergen-Belsen across threads.  But I point out that doing so got you to
    address the evidence, and below I simply and directly address your
    argument.

    However, if you think it (or me) deranged, that is your right.

    But I will not stop responding to your HATE HATE HATE or to your
    reposted lies as I see them.  If you choose not to rebut my posts, that
    is your business.  (Frankly you do so poorly at it most of the time you
    might come out ahead simply staying quiet.)

    Goodbye zeyde, it was nice dialoging with you.

    Danny

    PS: you mis-used "your" in the second sentence and you probably didn't
    mean the adjective "connotated" in the fifth sentence.  But all in all
    your grammar is improving from when you first started posting.  Keep it
    up (or keep your ghostwriter on staff - whichever.)

>>In article <31de6e70.282094@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>    Now, you might consider offering some support for your assertion that
>>>>    historians have changed their interpretation of whether both Buchenwald
>>>>    and Bergen-Belson were extermination camps or not.  it has been awhile
>>>>    now that you have been avoiding this and some of your precious lurkers
>>>>    might begin to sense you are being less than fully forthcoming with
>>>>    them, zeyde.
>>> 
>>>	I don't know to what degree "percious lurkers" might be following
>>>what everever your focused on. I don't have any problem with lurkers.
>>>I treat them with respect. You can point out whatever you want to
>>>point out, and by so doing you can expose yourself. Maybe along with
>>>the clarification I'm going to ask you for right now, you would like
>>>to explain why you are bringing up a topic that was from another post
>>>that has nothing to do with what is at hand. I believe you have
>>>included it with a response to another unrelated post also. 
>>>                         ================
>>> 
>>>	First I will clarify my position. I say that in the early years
>>>after the war, even unto into the fifties, Bergen-Belsen and
>>>Buchenwald were put forth in publications as being extermination
>>>camps, and at this time these camps are held as never having been
>>>extermination camps.
>>
>>    Can your provide any specific pointers to a publication that did this
>>    so I can see for myself that these camps were called extermination
>>    camps?
>>
>>>	Now if you have some special application that you need as to
>>>"historians" that is your specialty. I don't think I ever mentioned
>>>the word "historians". I'll clarify the specifics as to what I am
>>>talking about as, referrences in any kind of publication that posed
>>>these two camps as extermination camps.	
>>
>>    I note that you did not say "historian" in your initial post.  The
>>    distinction is important to me.  Sometimes Journalists get the
>>    terminology - and the facts - wrong when they write about the
>>    Holocaust.  Just as you have seen journalists say 4,000,000 died at
>>    Auschwitz, I too have seen the same thing.  Historians sometimes, but
>>    very rarely, make such blatant mistakes.
>>
>>    So, I would like to see for myself which publications made these
>>    statements.  I would like to determine for myself whether [a] there was
>>    a change in what was conventionally presented to have happened in the
>>    Holocaust, [b] usage of terminology changed over time (did they
>>    actually say extermination, or did they say killing or gassing or some
>>    other such thing), [c] that it was written by a journalist who got the
>>    facts screwed up, or [d] no such publication as you claim exists.
>>
>>>	As to their status right now, I would refer you to the Simon
>>>Wiesenthal Center site, "Response to Revisionist Arguments", No.12.
>>>"Didn't Simon wiesenthal himself state that there were no
>>>extermination camps in Germany?" We will notice that Simon Wiesenthal
>>>did not word it like 'Isn't it true that at one time camps in Germany,
>>>including Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald, were once put forth as being
>>>extermination camps and now this past assertion is not held, even by
>>>Mr.Wiesenthal himself?'
>>
>>    Correct, there were no "extermination camps" in Germany.  The
>>    extermination camps were in the East in Poland.  There were many camps
>>    in Germany but these were concentration camps.  Some people died in
>>    these German camps.  There were limited experiments with gassing, there
>>    probably were limited experiments with human soap, so some people did
>>    but in general these were not extermination camps.
>>
>>>	Maybe you can employ some special cant to say why Wiesenthal
>>>would even heve a question like this.
>>
>>    Yes.  It is a common denier tactic to say that "even Simon Wiesenthal
>>    claims there were no extermination camps in Germany during WW II."  If
>>    a denier makes the above statement with no qualifier that the
>>    extermination camps were in Poland, it appears to the naive reader that
>>    Simon Wiesenthal is admitting that there were no extermination camps. 
>>    SWC has the question and answer in place to address this denier point.
>>
>>                         daniel david mittleman 
>>===========================================================================
>>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 18:42:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48750 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 6 Jul 1996 13:47 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 104
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6JUL199613472255@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31dd2d95.2437571@news.pacificnet.net> <5JUL199610570486@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31de700a.691725@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    Example #4 of Tom Moran's HATE HATE HATE manifesto

    [its like shooting fish in a VERY SMALL barrel.

    Tommy wrote:

Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
"Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.

    I have been posting examples of Tommy's words which evidence his hate. 
    In repsonse to my third such posting Tommy has written:

In article <31de700a.691725@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>	Inspite of the Jews trying to imply prominence in the American
>Revolution (Cal.Gov. Pete Wilson as a Senator tried to introduce a
>bill to erect a statue to some remote Revolutionary character said to
>have been Jewish, boastings that some guy named Solomon from Philly
>financed the war, and machinations of Paul Reveres commanding officer
>being Jewish) the Jews role in the American Revolution was of such an
>extent it doesn't merit mention.
>	Full page ads by Jewish organizations tell us how they are at the
>forefront of civil rights.
>	The two little books mentioned are the "O.T." including the Torah
>and the wicked Talmud.
>	As to their trying to undo all that was gained during our 
>American Revolution, Jews are working hard in consort to undo those
>freedoms, basically the First Amendment. Seems that 99% of the

    Allow me to jump in the middle of the rant to say four letters:
    A-C-L-U.  Joe McCarthy, among others, have called the ACLU a "Jewish
    organization" because its membership was/is so predominently Jewish. 
    You bigots might want to get your stories straight before saying Jews
    are anti-free speech.

>complaints that come out against free speech come from this group that
>makes up 1 or 2 percent of our population. They say they are fighting
>"hate" when in fact they are only really concerned with stifling free
>speech on the Holocaust and U.S. relations with Israel, and Zionist
>practices.
>	Whatever Mr.Mittleman raves about Jewish individuals being here
>and there says nothing about what they do when acting in consort for
>their own benefit.  
>	Are Jews trying to control our modes of communication? Yes. Just
>look at their activity with the net. They seem to be the only ones who
>have the biggest beef. The one or two percent having the 99% problem.
>Hollywood? Well this doesn't need any comment. News papers? Seems half
>the voices that appear on our editorials are Jewish. The one or two
>percent having at least 50% of the voice.
>	Lobbies for special consideration in Washington? A couple of
>hundred organizations for plying around the capitol. 
>	Books? "The Dare to Speak Out" by ex-Senator Paul Findley, and a
>myriad of others. 
>	History in general? The most repeated history in the history of
>the world.

    Tommy, you do such a good job yourself of demonstrating your hatred,
    there is little left for me to say.

    But let me make a couple of points:

    [1] You say there are "a couple of hundred organizations for plying
    around the captiol".  By this I assume you mean a couple hundred
    organizations which lobby on behalf of a Jewish point of view.  Is this
    a correct reading of your statement?  If not, please enlighten me.  If
    it is, please list for us 50 of these organizations.  Just as you asked
    us to name a fraction of the camps Goldhagen cited - and we did - I
    think it only fair for you to name some of the organizations you have
    asserted.  I do believe we named about 200 camps, but 50 lobbying
    organizations will be sufficient.  Can you demonstrate that there is a
    sizable pro-Jewish lobby in DC made up of hundreds of organizations, or
    is your assertion simply empty HATE HATE HATE?

    [2] _Dare to Speak Out_ is not a pro-Jewish book.  You seem a little
    confused on this point.  It is, however, a good example of how one can
    publish in this country with a decidedly non pro-Jewish message.

    [3]  Jews seem to have the biggest beef on the internet?  By what logic
    do you assert this?  Have you done an analyis of the 10,000 or so
    newsgroups that exist?  Do you know which posters are Jewish?  This
    seems like fairly empty hate rhetoric to me?  But if you assert that
    your manifesto is not HATE HATE HATE, feel free to support this
    assertion with some data.

    [4] Half the voices on our editorials are Jewish?  Ever since you first
    asserted this point about the New York Times I have been looking
    closely at the names to try to determine who is Jewish and who isn't. 
    Occasionally I can tell, but usually I can't.  And when I can tell,
    very often it is because something in the name makes it clear the
    person isn't Jewish (e.g. it is signed *Reverand* Joe Smith, or it is
    signed Joe Smith, Jr.).  So, do you have some logic or data to support
    your assertion of 50%, or is this again simply an empty assertion of
    HATE HATE HATE?

    There is so much more there, zeyde, but unless you can provide some
    solid logic and data, I think I have adequately demonstrated more HATE
    HATE HATE on your part.  

    And after all, it is your manifesto, isn't it?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 20:52:20 PDT 1996
Article: 48757 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Push, push, push
Date: 6 Jul 1996 07:33 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 	Mr.Mittleman says it was only the older population that was sent
>: to Auschwitz and only the teenagers were left behind.
>: 
>: 	Back to bed Mr.Mittleman.  

    No zeyde, your reading comprehension is failing you again.  What I did
    was present you with a testimony from the railway platform inside of
    Auschwitz where the woman (Marianne F.) said that those under 14 and
    over 35 were being put in one line and were then taken ot the gas
    chambers while the remainder (between 14 and 35) were put in another
    line, taken to a real shower, and admitted to the camp.

    All of these people were already at Auschwitz.  I didn't write anything
    about how people were selected to get on the train.  (Personally, I am
    unaware of a selection process at that end.)


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul  6 20:52:21 PDT 1996
Article: 48760 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but might not have been
Date: 6 Jul 1996 07:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
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In article <4rlmov$oho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
>>    This makes me think: wouldn't it be amusing if this whole episode was
>>    simply an innocent snafu that occured because of the name change and
>>    that a polite request to the system manager to check on it would
>clear
>>    it all up on Monday?
>>
>>    I wonder if those arseholes went ballistic before considering the
>>    obvious cause of the problem: domain name change screw-ups?
> 
>I don't think it made you think at all.  There was polite conversation
>with the system manager on Friday, confirming most clearly the disconnect,
>but giving no reasons why.
> 
>May I then humbly and politely request that you shove your surmise up your
>characterization.  ;-)

    Point taken.  As I have noted elsewhere I am working from limited
    information here.  If it is in fact censorship, then I am with you on
    this.  If it is that they got upset that Smith was using a personal
    account for business purposes AND THEY ARE BEHAVING THE SAME WAY WITH
    ALL THEIR OTHER CUSTOMERS WHO ARE DOING THE SAME then they are making a
    fairly stupid business decision (they are more effective ways to
    provoke their customers to change their ways) but they are within 
    their rights to do what they did.

    What are CODOH's next steps?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 10 06:53:15 PDT 1996
Article: 49341 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 21:15 MST
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In article <31e25955.73608413@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>This is absolutely correct. He can get another service. I'm still
>>>curious about the details. This isn't any different than the
>>>discussion over ads in newspapers. 
>>
>>    Yes and no.
>>
>>    Yes, Smith can get another service.  No, it is different than the
>>    discussion over ads in newspapers.  It is different because newspapers
>>    are reponsible for their content (including advertising content -
>>    consider NY Times v. Sullivan) and must take care over what they decide
>>    to include.  PSNW represents itself as a common carrier, like a phone
>>    company, and makes no representation of control over content.  If you
>>    look at their service agreement (which is available through their web
>>    page) you can see that they are very explicit about not controlling
>>    content of their subscribers.
> 
>Good point. It still isn't censorship since Smith can get another
>service. When he is refused by all the services then I'll say he has
>been censored. I didn't think through the subtle difference between
>the print media and the on-line media. I would think that if I owned a
>service and I accepted the account of Smith then some of him could rub
>off on me. Personally, I wouldn't have him. So I would censor him from
>my service if I owned one if I could do that legally. I'm not familiar
>with the law as it concerns these Internet services so I'm ignorant.
>This might be a good place to make this discussion open so that
>everyone can understand how they work in layman's terms. 

    Whether or not it is censorship is a semantic issue.  If Smith's site
    was continually forced to change addresses, they might waste a lot of
    time doing systems work so much so they could not update content and
    potential readers might have a hard time finding them (yes, I know
    about search engines).  This technically would not be censorship as
    they would be out there somewhere, but effectively they would be
    limited in putting their message out.  If it was happening to me due to
    intentional actions by another party, I would consider myself being
    censored.

    The law for internet service providers is new and unfolding.  I am
    aware of a couple of cases dealing with online providors but I am not
    aware of any cases involving the hosting of home pages.  Maybe someone
    else here is.  I agree that this is germaine to a.r as there are many
    revisionist, neo-nazi, and archivist sites springing up.  The deniers
    seem to have figured out that these homepages are a more effective
    medium for them than a.r debate.

>>    So, rather than this being like an issue of whether a newspaper will
>>    accept or reject an advertisement, it is much more like a long distance
>>    company saying to a customer, "we don't like what you are saying during
>>    your phone calls and even though we have a contract with you to provide
>>    service for a period of time into the future, we are going to cut you
>>    off right now."  That customer can - and will - go to another long
>>    distance carrier, but we would probably agree that the first carrier
>>    should have honored the terms of the contract.
> 
>My understanding is that when one has a Web Page you are in effect
>publishing something. The carrier is in effect publishing it for you
>by supplying the paper and the ink and then distributing it. The phone
>company analogy doesn't seem to work because once the word is spoken
>it is gone. Unless, of course,  someone records it. It is only
>distributed for that moment to whoever is listening in. It is not
>permanent unless someone makes it so. Making it permanent would be a
>form of publication. It would seem that the phone company is out of
>this loop. Is this a worthy distinction?

    The term "publishing" is used, but the do not own or control content of
    the homepages.  It is more like a printer printing a contract job for a
    customer: the printer generated the physical page, but did not publish
    it in the sense of ownership or control.

    The phone company analogy is not perfect, but  consider a phone company
    that offers a voice mail sevice.  Now this company is not simply
    carrying messsages which dissappear into the ether, but is archiving
    material for its contract customer.  Is that phone company responsible
    for content of the messages?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 10 06:53:16 PDT 1996
Article: 49347 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,can.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Horrible Racist Comic At WWW.RESIST.COM
Date: 9 Jul 1996 21:59 MST
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In article <31e25f44.75127740@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes...
>geo@3-cities.com wrote:
> 
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>>>    So, to the second point: Your two sentences are non-sequiturs.  Yes,
>>>    the First Amendment does not protect libel or slander.  It does not
>>>    prevent lying in political speech.  For example, take your less
>>>    favorite of the Republicans and Democrats and note what they say about
>>>    your more favorite.  There are lots of lies and half truths in there. 
>>>    Some of it you may determine is destructive.  Most all of it is
>>>    protected speech.
>>
>>Incorrect.  Lies or the act of defaming anyone, regardless of their
>>political position, are not protected speech.
> 
>After they are proven to be lies and injurous. Yes.

    Even then there is a broad range of speech that is permissable with
    regard to public figures.  Take for example David Letterman calling Bob
    Dole 90 years old over and over again.  It is a lie.  It is injurous if
    age is a factor in the election.  Yet I can't imagine that a court
    would say Letterman is not permitted to say such things.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 10 08:10:55 PDT 1996
Article: 49421 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 10 Jul 1996 06:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 171
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In article <31e25c27.74330527@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes...
>brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) wrote:
> 
>>> But academics are like cats - you can't herd them
>>
>>You can't possibly be serious.  What planet do you live on?  
>>
> 
>We live on Earth. Where do you live?
> 
>Academics get in fights and battles all the time. A most recent
>example is with Goldhagen. And earlier reprehensible example is with
>H. Turner and some assistant professor who was trying to make a case
>that Hitler was supported by big business. The assistant prof was
>denied tenure.
> 
>>> Many academics are not pro-semites.  And many academics are
>>>     intellectually honest and will go whereever the evidence takes them.
>>
>>I agree partly here.  Certainly the first part is true.  And the second
>>part is not all that inaccurate.  But I would add a third part:  many
>>academics are cowards who shrink from being seen as politically incorrect
>>or out of step with academic establishment conventions.
> 
>Not as I see it for I see this happening all the time. Got any
>examples to prove your point? I have an endless supply of examples
>that will show you are incorrect in your last statement.

    Yes, I have one, but I don't think examples here are meaningful.  Mr.
    Hagen's  third category is simply the opposite pole of the second
    category.  Surely there are some people out there, but that being so
    does not support his original thesis in any way.

    Mr. Hagen is faced with the task of explaining why no conventional
    historians (i.e. historians with Ph.D.s in History or referent field
    who hold accredited academic positions) deny or (in Mr. Hagen's words)
    "diminish" the Holocaust.  So, if there are some academics who "shrink
    from being seen as politically incorrect" then those historians are out
    of the pool of potential Holocaust diminishers.  Mr, Hagen, however,
    must address why the historians at the other pole (who he seems to
    agree exist) never diminish the Holocaust.

>>  They are, in
>>their own way, sheep.  I see them every day.  In any event my focus here
>>is really on popular culture.  In a democratic world popular culture is
>>ultimately what matters.
> 
>You must be a student. The only folks I ever hear this from is
>students.

    Funny that Mr. Hagin would present a precis demonstrating, he hoped,
    the reality of revisionism and then when encountering some pushback say
    that he isn't so interested in historical reality, but in the public
    perception of that reality.

>>> > Why has the Jewish Holocaust become "the" event of the 1930'S and
>>> > 1940's >around which all others revolve including even World War II
>>> > itself?
>>
>>>     By what basis do you demonstrate that this is so?
>>
>>Again, what planet do you live on?
> 
>We live on Earth. Where do you live?

>>  As WWII recedes, as the veterans on
>>both sides grow old and die, as the old war hatreds (at least some of
>>them) diminish and disappear, the Jewish holocaust simply grows and grows
>>in stature and importance.  The memorials and museums (actually they are

    Note that last year was the 50th anniversary of concentration camp
    prisoners gaining freedom.  It was a year in which it was natural for
    their to be a heavy emphasis on Holocaust remembrance.  And the year
    before that Schindler's List came out and won academy awards.  And that
    year or the year before the USHMM opened.

    So, many events have happened.  I guess you can interpret this as the
    Holocaust growing in stature and importance; I interpret it as a series
    of events which have temporarily put the Holocaust in the public eye.

>>one and the same) proliferate in western country after western country,
>>most funded by taxpayers.   Holocaust studies, even departments and
>>separate endowed chairs, now exist at all major universities.

    Name one program of Holocaust studies?  Name one Holocaust Department? 
    (I can believe there are a few endowed chairs - though I don't know of
    one; I would be very surprised if there were more than five as opposed
    to them being at all major universities.)

    I assert there are zero Holocaust Studies programs and zero Holocaust
    Departments.  Care to provide evidence to support your initial
    assertion?

>This makes sense in that it has been over 50 years. It makes more
>sense since documents that were hidden behind the Iron Curtain are
>coming to light. So historians can see a lot of work ahead. 

    You are too easy on this point, Mike.

>>  Holocaust
>>curricula are required in many high schools.
> 
>I haven't seen this. What schools are these and what are the classes?

    This is correct.  Discussions of curricula in several states has
    occured previously in alt.revisionism.  When I was visiting in Chicago
    about two weeks ago I met a high school social studies teacher.  We got
    around to talking about the Holocaust and he mentioned that in Illinois
    he was required to teach a unit on it.  (He didn't offer me details of
    what the state requirements were.)

    What I found interesting about this was that one approach he uses is
    that he teaches about denial too.  After he introduces conventional
    materials to the students, he shows them a letter that a denier couple
    (husband and wife - I asked him for their names but he didn't recall
    off hand) wrote to the editor of the Chicago Tribune a few years back. 
    He has the students discuss the letter and then as individuals write
    responses to this couple.  They then mail the letters out.  He said
    that neither he nor any of the students has ever received a letter back
    from the couple.

>>  In terms of films, TV
>>productions and documentaries, books, fiction and non-fiction, the numbers
>>grow exponentially each decade.

    I doubt that.  I bet a careful analysis will show that it grows
    additively.

>This will happen as more and more documentation comes to light. This
>will happen as people begin to die and publish the memoirs about
>things they didn't really want to talk about. It was, after all, the
>human tragedy of our century.

    Again, you are too accepting Mike.  :>

>>  I have no doubt there are millions
>>(almost exclusively young persons under 30 probably) who can say little
>>about WWII but who can recount all the dramatic and tragic details of
>>"the" holocaust.  If you don't think that, in the popular culture at
>>least, the holocaust is virtually the whole ball of wax today then you and
>>I inhabit different worlds.  But then we know that already.

    I don't think there is any data available to support this assertion of
    yours, and your assertion runs counter to what is intuitive to me.

    Young people in general have little knowledge of historical events 50
    years ago.  If you ask them who was president 50 years ago, I suspect
    less than 20% of the college students in the country would get it
    correct.  (Marty or someone, could you take a small poll in your class
    and see what happens?)

    Surely those youths who happened to see Schindler's List have a visual
    image of the Holocaust, but that is just a snapshot.  I'd be very
    surprised if you could show me that more than 5% of today's college
    students could name more than one concentration camp, or could
    breakdown death totals into Jewish and non-Jewish correctly, or could
    breakdown camp and non-camp deaths correctly.  Whatever picture exists,
    I suggest, is a very shallow picture.

>We aren't sure what planet you are from yet. Some of us have a
>different perception of our world and its focus than you seem to have.
> 
>We would be more civil if you didn't stoop to the "what planet do you
>live on" nonsense.

    We are all from earth laast I checked.


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 10 12:39:49 PDT 1996
Article: 49463 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 21:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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Matt Giwer  wrote:
> But as with all holohuggers are you are liar.

    If that's the case then Matt Giwer is a very wise man.


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 10 12:39:50 PDT 1996
Article: 49469 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 21:24 MST
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In article <4ru5ge$nfa@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes...
>I'd like to pass on some comments from a recent discussion I had with
>Bradley Smith about his contact with Rick Horowitz on July 5, 1996
>immediately following closure of the CODOH site.
>[Discussion, which I basically agreed with, is deleted] 

    Would you ask Mr. Smith what sort of contract he believes was in place
    with PSNW?  Does have anything in writing?  To what date was he paid
    through?  Have they offered any money back?  Is he intending to sue?
    Have you all put the site up yet at another location?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 10 12:39:51 PDT 1996
Article: 49470 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 21:28 MST
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In article <4ruh39$dh7@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) writes...
> 
>Any legislation banning Mr. Smith from *any* forum would be contrary to
>the Bill of Rights -- as would requiring non-public accommodations to
>allow him to speak on their property. Mr. Smith has a guaranteed right to
>distribute fliers on public streets and in shopping malls, but he has no
>positive right to an account on ValleyNet.

    Actually, neither Mr. Smith, nor you, nor I have a First Amendment
    right to distribute fliers in shopping malls, which is a Burger Court
    decision I am not at all happy with.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 10 14:57:30 PDT 1996
Article: 49478 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism in Holocaust books
Date: 10 Jul 1996 06:11 MST
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In article <31e2474c.3546232@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	Heres an interesting situation. Mr.Mittleman says the Jews would
>have made up 80 or more of the American artisans if it wasn't for them
>being barred from trade unions. 

    "80 or more"?  If you are saying "would have made up 80% or more", no
    that is not what I said.  Why would I have said that a group composed
    of 2% of the population could have made up 80% of all trade unionists? 
    80% of all trade unionists is much more than 2% of the population (my
    off the top of my head estimate would be about 16% of the population,
    or eight times the number of Jews in the country.)

    What I _might_ have said (I'd don't recall and would like you to find
    MY actual statement if you want to pursue this) is that 80% of the
    Jewish workforce _might_ have been trade artisans except for the
    reasons I cited.

>>As to the statement, 'One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he
>>(Hilberg) would profess the Jews have in America.' 
>>
>>	Danny Mittleman, staunch defender of anything Holocaust story responed:
>>    "I don't know.  I would guess it to be less than 80% for two
>>reasons: 
>>    One, for many years Jews were systematically kept out of trade
>>unions so less Jewish families developed traditions in specific
>>fields.  And two, many Jewish children in the United States go to
>>College and Graduate School and take on careers common at those
>>education levels."

    Yes, this seems reasonable to me.  It sounds like my writing.  I can
    accept I wrote this.  I will stand by this.

>	And Yehuda Bauer says the Jews were responsible for the trade
>unions. 
> 
>>VIII (a).  According to Jewish author Yehuda Bauer, in his book, "A
>>History of the Holocaust":
>>	"The growth of the American trade-union movement is due in large
>>measure to the leadership of it's many Jewish members."

    OK.  That makes sense to.  After all, even though Jews are only 2% of
    the population, they are very visible and active in:
    - the legal professions
    - research and acadmeics
    - the entertainment industry
    - medicine

    It seems that members of the Jewish community often gravitate towards
    leadership positions.  It does not surprise me that they would help to
    lead the trade-union movement as well.

    Did Bauer say what percentage of the trade unionists were Jewish?  I
    will bet it was well under 80% of them  :>

>	One should expect a 'creative' excuse should be forth coming.

    Thanks for playing, zeyde.
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 10 16:01:05 PDT 1996
Article: 88314 of alt.censorship
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 21:19 MST
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:49463 alt.censorship:88314

Matt Giwer  wrote:
> But as with all holohuggers are you are liar.

    If that's the case then Matt Giwer is a very wise man.


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 11 07:22:17 PDT 1996
Article: 49536 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hagen Responds
Date: 10 Jul 1996 19:23 MST
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In article <4rvcn0$bsp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) writes...
>Mittelman, Kelley, and Ehrlich in the last few days responded to my
>article, "REVISIONISM DEFINED" and I hereby put forth a further response
>to them.  I will not engage (beyond this sentence) in a saliva-lobbing
>contest with McVay (who appears to be a charlatan) nor with Borowsky (who
>apparently is locked into a junior high school mind-set).  
> 
>Regretfully, I find that you ignored many of my points or distorted them. 
>So I will feel free to ignore your specific points and respond generally. 

    You, of course, are welcome to respond as you like, but I would find it
    much more helpful for you to explicitely show me where I have distorted
    your arguments.  It was my intention to address them, not distort them.

>(Though I will work diligently not to distort what you have said.)  Your
>scriptures are not mine and so when you quote or reference them it has
>less impact on me than you apparently imagine or hope will be the case.  
>I have stated, all along, that brutality and atrocity ocurred (on both
>sides if in very different ways).  Much of your critique implies I am
>denying this.  Someone reading only your responses to me, and not my own
>words, would conclude I had written something very different from the
>actual document I posted.

    I can't speak for others but I am not saying you argued as such.  We
    agree that there were significant atrocities committed by Garmans,
    Soviets, Americans, and Japanese.  (Am I missing a group from WWII who
    should be noted?)

>Also there is a good deal of, "that statement is anti-semitic and
>therefore it is invalid or untrue," on your part.  I don't accept the term
>"anti-semitic" to be anything other than, in our day,  a smear term
>meaning bad thought, impermissible idea, or, most appropriately, heresy. 

    Again, I don't think I said that.  (This is a problem when you lump us
    together in response.  You run the risk of tarring us all with one
    brush.)

>I don't think whether one is anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, anti-Arab,
>anti-German, anti-Christian, anti-Polynesian, etc. necessarily has any
>bearing on the rightness or rectitude of any particular assertion that one
>might make.  It should stand or fall on its own.  Therefore, if I make (in
>your opinion) an anti-Semitic assertion that does not invalidate it.  It
>can be invalidated, certainly, by being erroneous.  And you're obviously
>free to say so if you believe it.  But for me you invalidate nothing by
>charging that a particular sentiment is anti-this or that.

    I agree.  The validity of your statements (or my statements for that
    matter) is wholly independent of any anti-xxx belief system your or I
    might have.  The validity of the statements stands or falls on its own.

>The essence of my position regarding the Jewish Holocaust flows out of my
>disbelief in the gas chambers.  If there were no gas chambers there was no
>extermination, no genocide.  There can be an abundance of cruelty,
>brutality, slavery, inhumane confinement, murderous behavior, etc. (and
>there was, as I have indeed stated) without gas chambers but there cannot
>be genocide.  

    Actually, if you take a careful look at the conventional history of the
    Holocaust you will see that only three million of the six million Jews
    who died are said to have died in gas chambers.  (I am not sure the
    exact count of the 10-12 million people who died, but it is at or under
    50% of them who died in gas chambers.)  Therefore, (and let me emphsize
    this by captializing it) EVEN IF THERE WERE NO GAS CHAMBERS, THE DEATHS
    OF THE OTHER THREE MILLION JEWS IS MOST CERTAINLY A GENOCIDE.  It is
    more than just lumping this in with the atrocities which occurred on
    all sides during the war.  Even without the gas chambers considered,
    the evidence behind the remainder of the deaths still demonstrates a
    tremendous genocide or Holocaust.

    It is an important point.  I will assume that you are not being
    disingenuous here but simply are unaware of how many deaths did not
    occur in gas chambers.

>If there was no genocide what was there?  As I said in my
>precis clearly there was the intent to expel Jews from Europe.  There was
>also a barbaric war between Germans and Jews in eastern Europe and Russia

    I am not aware of a barbaric war between Germans and Jews in Eastern
    Europe.  Please tell me more about this.  I am only aware of a one
    sided genocide.  I am aware, however, that there were some Jews in an
    underground movement.  But this movement was small and it clearly came
    about in response to the actions taken by the Nazis.  I am open to
    hearing more if you have some documentation to put in front of me.

>in which tens of thousands of the latter were killed .  There was no

    Millions of the latter were killed.  And if we include deaths inflicted
    by the Poles and the Russians, it was in the tens of millions during
    the first half of the 20th century.  I still would not call it a "war"
    unless the Jews were also at war with the Germans, Poles, or Russians. 
    I am not aware of this state of existence, though.

>shortage of atrocities.  But - and if you're honest you will concede this
>- without the gas chambers there was no genocide.  Without genocide you
>have only expulsion and brutality.  Bad enough, sure, but very much in the
>same universe of atrocity committed by the anti-German side: Dresden, the
>carpet-bombing of German working-class areas which resulted in a million
>or more deaths among non-combatants, the post-war rapine of Germans and
>persons of German descent.  All of the latter atrocities,  on those rare
>ocassions when they are even mentioned, invariably are dismissed because,
>after all, the Germans were "bad" people and anything that was necessary
>to defeat them and win the war was perfectly justified.  And of course
>after the war it was only proper they be severely chastised.  

    1. I do not concede that without gas chambers there was no genocide. 
    There were millions killed without gas chambers.  Three million Jews
    were killed by the Nazis simply because they were Jews outside of the
    use of gas chambers: there exists no better example of genocide.  To
    the best of my knowledge Serbs did not use gas chambers to kill Bosnian
    civilians in the 1990s, yet much of the civilized world considers Serbian
    actions to be genocide.  The Japanese did not use gas chambers on the
    Chinese in the 1930s, yet much of the civilized world considers those
    Japanese actions to be genocide.  There is no need for gas chambers for
    genocide to exist.

    2. Dresden may well have been an atrocity.  Dresden may well have been
    wrong.  But: [a] Dresden was committed by Americans, not by European
    Jews, it has nothing to do with the question under discussion; and [b]
    one act of violence - whether we call it genocide or merely an atrocity
    - does nothing to diminish another act of violence.  You introduction
    of Dresden to the argument in no way lessens nor mitigates the actions
    of the Nazis against the Jews.  It is no way demonstrates any less of a
    genocide that is otherwise demonstrated.

>Sorry I don't buy it.  There were atrocities on a massive scale on both
>sides in WWII and its aftermath.  Holocaustery is the very essence of
>denying this truth.  I will not be a party to it and I will applaud
>revisionism and wish it well because it pushes in the direction of truth
>and objectivity and fairness.  And I really don't care who makes up the
>revisionist party or who benefits if, and when, revisionism becomes an
>acceptable view, even the accepted view.  History is not a football match
>in which we root for our team and wish the opponents poorly.  We should be
>pushing for truth or as close to it as we can get.  And damn the

    This is an interesting thesis.  As I understand it you are saying:

    1.  All sides did very bad things
    2.  All anyone ever pays attention to is the one bad thing the Nazis
    did to the Jews.
    3.  This is wrong, we should see that all these things were equally bad
    4.  Therefore I will be party to the argument that the Nazis did not
    really do bad things to the Jews.

    The first three points are very reasonable  (I am not sure I agree with
    three, but I can accept that it is a valid argument to put forward). 
    The fourth does not follow logically.

>consequences.  But of course I know history as it is practiced today by
>historians and others, and perhaps as it has always been practiced, really
>is not that different from the football contest.

    Might you explain this point in more detail.  In a football contest one
    side wins and the other side loses.  How does this happen with
    historians?  Please include in your explanation a discussion of how new
    historians build from different countering arguments to fit together
    compromise theories which better explain reality.  Also in your
    argument please show how historians change historical facts in this
    football game, rather than simply changing interpretation of commonly
    known facts.

>So, as regards the existence of gas chambers, I think your side (the side
>of the Holocaust as the overarching evil of our epoch or of any epoch) is

    Well, this overarching evil thing is something new you are introducing
    here.  Please explain and support.  It was bad, real bad.  I don't know
    that I would call it an overarching evil, though.  Which historians do?

>in serious trouble.  I think very many people are beginning to doubt the
>gas chambers because it is a pretty incredible story if you examine it
>with any objectivity.  There is very little believable evidence for gas
>chambers if you filter out the hysterical and the religious.  Of course

    Please show us how some of the specific evidence for gas chambers goes
    away via a filter for hysterical or religious.  Now I do understand
    that individual testimonies are sometimes hysterical and religious but,
    as I explained to you in my first response, no respectable historian
    draws conclusions for a single testimony.

    Please show us how the physical evidence, the blueprints, the Nazi
    records and documents, and the Nazi memiors which demonstrate the
    existence and use of gas chambers are largely hysterical and/or
    religious.

>you can't publicly express your doubt because, as regards Holocaustery, we
>remain in the age of the Inquisition.  The subject matter is different but
>the head still readily rolls off one's shoulders.  You critics will of
>course deny this and demand evidence.  I say look about you, the evidence
>is everywhere, and nowhere is it more stark than on the average college
>campus. 

    No, I will agree with you about this.  It is very hard to put forward
    an argument as unpopular as "the gas chambers did not exist."  About
    the only way you can expect to be successful at it is to be very good. 
    That is, you have to have all your ducks in a row and be able to
    address ALL of the evidence put in front of you which shows that they
    did exist.  To date in this discussion you have been unable to do that. 
    Your arguments regarding gas chamber evidence have been extremely
    vague.  Many of your other arguments about other aspects of the
    Holocaust do not hold up to logical scrutiny.

    Now, my saying this is not part of an inquisition.  I am able to go
    with unpopular opinions (trust me on this - or ask me to give you some
    explicit examples and I will), but I require a solid logical basis for
    doing so.  You, and for that matter ever other revisionist I have read
    here, has been unable to do this.

>I note that a number of my critics mention repeatedly something along the
>lines of "no credible historian accepts your view of the Holocaust," and
>therefore, by the numbers, you lose.  I don't think that follows at all. 

    It isn't a vote (or a football game).  What this particular piece of
    information was intended to show is that as no historian has bought
    into the argument you are making, we do not have an intellectual
    discussion with two sides here.  If you want there to be an
    intellectual discussion with two sides then you need to put forward an
    argument strong enough for *some* historians to say, "you know I am not
    sure I agree with all that, but I can sure see that he is building a
    solid case that I need to look into."  Once you have gotten that far,
    then we have a real debate on our hands.  Again, in all the time I have
    been reading alt.revisionism no revisionist has gotten even close to
    that point.

>I have pointed out (and surely you cannot deny this) in the world we
>inhabit it is very foolish and even very dangerous for someone, in
>academia or outside, publicly to express a revisionist position or even
>sympathy for a revisionist position.  David Irving is persona non grata

    I will agree with this.

>(denied entry) in many countries of the western world.  He has lost
>millions due to cancelled book contracts and I know for a fact his life
>has been threatened.  He has no defenders that I know of in academia and I
>seriously doubt any of my critics regard Irving as anything other than the
>embodiment of evil.  And he is only on the margins of revisionism.  And

    He has also been convicted of dishonesty.  (I am sure someone here can
    provide the particulars of his crimes if you are interested.)  I have a
    problem accepting a researcher who has previously been show to have
    cokked the books.

>yet apparently he is enough of an historian to have dozens of books in
>most libraries in the US.  (Or did the last time I looked.)  Have any of

    He is enough of an author, at least.  I don't know what kind of
    historiography skills he has.  Do you know anything about his training?

>you defended Irving's right to speak, to be heard, to do research, to
>publish?  How does he differ from Salmon Rushdie?  Oh, I forgot:  Irving's

    I would oppose a movement to keep Irving from speaking in the US.  I
    would oppose a movement to keep Irving from doing research (unless he
    has been known to damage primary source materials [which I don't know
    if he has]).

    I don't know that there has been a credible death threat against
    Irving, but if there has I imagine that he and Rushdie are similar on
    that dimension.

>a bad guy, an anti-semite.  Of course.  Untrue but no doubt you believe
>it.  If you don't, say so. >  

    I don't know if he is or isn't.  I have not ever read his work.  I have
    read the transcript of a speach he gave in, I think, Oregon.  It was a
    pretty awful speech I recall.

>Interestingly enough, Ehrlich, in commenting on something said by SF924,
>shed important light when he pointed out that in his experience very few
>of his colleagues would touch anything to do with revisionism because they
>would not wish to assist it any way or be thought "anti-semitic."  And he
>said any academic who jumped into the fray would risk "professional
>ostracism."  Very true words.  So why is there any surprise that no
>credible historian is on the revisionist side?  It's really a Catch 22. 

    There is some truth to this.  However, once an academic is tenured
    there is little that can be done to him and so many academics are nasty
    curmudgeons (including me :> ) that I have to believe some of them
    would follow a revisionist track if there was some meat behind it. 
    None (or almost none) seem to.

>The moment a credible historian became sympathetic to revisionism he would
>be denounced, he would be shunned, he would lose his book contracts,
>probably his job.  And of course he no longer would be a credible
>historian. Thereby maintaining the purity of the fraternity of "credible"
>historians. >  

    If he did it with some real data and analysis behind his work he would
    certainly still suffer some for being politically incorrect.  However,
    others - assuming the data and analysis - would certainly jump to his
    defense.  Consider the book _The Bell Curve_.  Those authors were about
    as politically incorrect as one can imagine.  They essentially said
    blacks are stupider than whites.  There were articles all over the
    place denouncing them.  Yet, some other academics rallied behind them. 
    There were distinctly two camps.

    If there were some real data, evidence, and logic to support a
    revisionist position (such as the one you assert) *some* historians
    would grab onto it.

>Generally I don't think your collective critique of my position - what
>I've seen so far - has been very effective.  You nitpick and continually
>demand evidence proving my case though the evidence your side has thus far
>shown to prove the existence of the gas chambers is quite pathetic -

    Well, you came here with a precis.  You asserted a point of view.  Whis
    means two things.

    1. As you asserted it, the onus is on you to defend it.  We are asking
    for evidence as you had very little of it in your initial argument.

    2. As you billed this as a nine (or was it ten) point precis which each
    point building on the previous and acting as a lynch pin to the next, 
    it is only natural that we would - as you put it - nitpick.  When you
    build an argument with lynchpins as you did, if one pin is removed the
    whole argument collapses.  But then, none of us told you to build your
    argument that way - you did it on your own.

>again, once you filter out the hysterical and the religious.  And I think
>you really have to concede that Holocaustery rises or falls on the
>existence of those gas chambers.   If there were none the Nazi atrocities,
>their treatment of the Jews (and others), have to be seen as only a part
>of the most atrocity-ridden bloodbath in the history of mankind, a
>bloodbath in which both sides contributed very significantly.  If someday

    You are getting repetitive here.  All this has been addressed above.

>the existence of gas chambers is proved definitively I will alter my view
>and renounce Holocaust revisionism.  And I will congratulate you for being
>correct all along.  But my very honest view is that I'm quite safe from
>such humiliation.  

    Please tell me what you would accept as proof.  I will then see what I
    can do.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 11 07:22:18 PDT 1996
Article: 49538 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism in Holocaust books
Date: 10 Jul 1996 19:37 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10JUL199619374116@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31dd3267.3671351@news.pacificnet.net> <31e2474c.3546232@news.pacificnet.net> <10JUL199606113675@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31e44954.3256777@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31e44954.3256777@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31e2474c.3546232@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>> 
>>>	Heres an interesting situation. Mr.Mittleman says the Jews would
>>>have made up 80 or more of the American artisans if it wasn't for them
>>>being barred from trade unions. 
>>
>>    "80 or more"?  If you are saying "would have made up 80% or more", no
>>    that is not what I said.  Why would I have said that a group composed
>>    of 2% of the population could have made up 80% of all trade unionists? 
>>    80% of all trade unionists is much more than 2% of the population (my
>>    off the top of my head estimate would be about 16% of the population,
>>    or eight times the number of Jews in the country.)
> 
>	This is what Mr. Mittleman said:
> 
>    "I don't know.  I would guess it to be less than 80% for two
>reasons: 
>    One, for many years Jews were systematically kept out of trade
>unions so less Jewish families developed traditions in specific
>fields.  And two, many Jewish children in the United States go to
>College and Graduate School and take on careers common at those
>education levels."

    Yes, Tommy.  Now take it back one post to see what question I was
    answering.  If you do I think you will see I was saying "80% of the
    Jews" not "80% of the trade unionists."  In fact, I am quite sure that
    is what I was saying.  It should be obvious if we look at the post I
    was addressing.  Go point your rigii there.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 11 07:22:19 PDT 1996
Article: 49556 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who would be Gannon?
Date: 10 Jul 1996 19:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10JUL199619430745@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4rvs1o$ksu@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>On 8 Jul 1996 23:16:57 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4rnjea$2ko@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
> 
>>	Ken McVay believes he can buy his way into the tribe and has yet
>>	to realize there is no way to do so.  
> 
>>Mr. Giwer believes he can provoke Mr. McVay with his vile insults and
>>has yet to realize there is no way to do so.
> 
>	McVay is a self aggrandizing fool who permits hired underlings to speak
>for him while he refuses to speak for himself.  

    Why would he want to buy his way into a tribe of underlings?

    Oh yeah, I forogt.  It was just a troll..

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

                          daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 11 11:55:32 PDT 1996
Article: 49704 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: total lack of perspective exemplified
Date: 10 Jul 1996 22:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10JUL199622321239@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rq9n8$9f3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rrgl9$j5b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31e25c27.74330527@news.zilker.net> <4s1hdo$j4d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4s1hdo$j4d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>On 10 Jul 1996 06:42 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    I don't think there is any data available to support this assertion of
>>    yours, and your assertion runs counter to what is intuitive to me.
> 
>>    Young people in general have little knowledge of historical events 50
>>    years ago.  If you ask them who was president 50 years ago, I suspect
>>    less than 20% of the college students in the country would get it
>>    correct.  (Marty or someone, could you take a small poll in your class
>>    and see what happens?)
> 
>>    Surely those youths who happened to see Schindler's List have a visual
>>    image of the Holocaust, but that is just a snapshot.  I'd be very
>>    surprised if you could show me that more than 5% of today's college
>>    students could name more than one concentration camp, or could
>>    breakdown death totals into Jewish and non-Jewish correctly, or could
>>    breakdown camp and non-camp deaths correctly.  Whatever picture exists,
>>    I suggest, is a very shallow picture.
> 
>	At a time when 5% of college students would be hard pressed to name the
>major countries involved in WW II, this nerfbrain thinks that a bit of
>historical trivia like his holocaust is of some particular significance.

    Go away, troll.

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

                          daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul 12 07:00:27 PDT 1996
Article: 49805 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but might not have been
Date: 11 Jul 1996 15:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11JUL199615444448@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rnlfs$rb8@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rv570$846@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s1j75$g6g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4s32e7$3ks@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4s32e7$3ks@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: On 11 Jul 1996 02:48:32 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>: anderson) wrote:
> 
>: >Hmm.  By the record, there is only one frequent poster to a.r. who
>: >has ever tried to have an opponent's web site shut down.  That 
>: >poster's initials are MG...
>: 
>: 	Who might that be?  
>: 
>: 	Several people here bragged about their repeated phone calls to my
>: provider.  
> 
>As far as I know, nobody here has ever tried to get your website
>shut down, Matt.  Several people have tried to get you to stop your
>persistent spamming, but that's not what we were talking about.  Do
>try to keep up, okay?

    Some people also tried to get him medical help.  But to no avail,
    apparently.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul 12 07:00:28 PDT 1996
Article: 49828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: 11 Jul 1996 11:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11JUL199611095506@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rm7pm$ot@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rnnle$g8o@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <31E11046.3FA2@gryn.org> <4s312m$3ks@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4s312m$3ks@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
> 
>: This is ridiculous.  I never realized Alec would wipe the floor with Giwer
>: so effortlessly.
> 
>I didn't think he could do it either, even after he told me by email
>how he was going to do it.  It looks easy, doesn't it, once you know
>the  trick?

    I've tuned out Giwer so I missed this.  Could you or Gord fill me in
    via email as to what happened?  Or at least give me the pointers so I
    can find it on DejaNews.

    danny

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 13 11:00:57 PDT 1996
Article: 50013 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 13 Jul 1996 08:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199608085350@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4s2kvp$d80@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <31E6CCCA.83C@unb.ca> <4s7dsc$lig@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4s7dsc$lig@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:08:10 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
> 
>>Chose to retire at 46, hmm?  Let's see, you claim to have graduated in '67,
>>and assuming a normal 4 year program you'd be 22...24 years later retired,
>>that would be 1991 or '92, about the same time as the USSR fell.
> 
>>Jeez, I'm amazed.  Giwer has related a series of internally consistent
>>statements.
> 
>	The Cold War stand down began in 1988 with the reduction of DEFCON
>level.  It was when they stopped maintaining most of their missiles on
>the military side, subordinated their military to fiscal concerns and
>took the first steps towards establishing an international exchange rate
>for their currency.  Technically what killed them was their Marxist
>refusal to put a cost on money and thus the ruble had no exchange value
>with any but their allies.  
> 
>	The end finally came with the Gulf War which was not against Iraq but
>against the Red Army.  It was to make the case that it was powerless
>against the US.  Gorby had gotten control of the KGB and the CPSU and
>with that defeat of Russian military equipment he was able to get
>control of the the Army.  There were only three power structures in the
>SU.  He had them all.  
>	
>	Their fate was sealed after that war.  Their last serious source of hard
>currency was from sales of military hardware.  After that war it was
>selling for 10% of its prewar price, i.e. a drug on the market you
>couldn't give away.  	
> 
>	The first five year troop reduction plan was passed in 1990 and we are
>in its last effective year.  There should be another troop reduction
>plan in the current DOD appropriations bill but I have not taken the
>time to dig it out.  If you get passed what is encapsulated for public
>consumption you will find the disagreements are over what kind of
>weapons are best for the much smaller military we will have in another
>five years.  

    Nice meandering gibberish, but the fact remains that there is lots of
    work to be done in the American military industrial complex.  But
    apparently there was no role for Giwer in any of this.


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 13 13:27:08 PDT 1996
Article: 50043 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: 12 Jul 1996 09:41 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12JUL199609414421@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rrgl9$j5b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rsbbt$203@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rvli6$ssm@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31e64334.289894@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31e64334.289894@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>Marty Kelley  wrote:

>>While academic politics are indeed a serious problem in the business, that
>>hardly makes _all_ scholarship invalid.  Within academe, for all its
>>faults and bickering (sometimes over trivialities), there are wide
>>variations in what is generally accepted in terms of theory and practice.
>>Ideological debate is common and wide-ranging--I have had profs who ranged
>>from Marxist to rock-bottom Tory in their politics.  Just asbout the only
>>thing that these very diverse folks would agree upon is that pseudoscience
>>(UFOs, "creationism," faith healing, etc) and pseudohistory (Holocaust
>>denial, the Trilateral Commission Conspiracy, etc.) are demonstably bunk.
>>
>	This is Mr.Kelley barking up the academic credentials topic
>again. Nothing proves academic degree guarantees anything. 

    This is Tommy not understanding what Marty is saying.  Zeyde should go
    find a good adult education class or something to catch up.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 13 13:27:09 PDT 1996
Article: 50045 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nitzkor im Bau
Date: 12 Jul 1996 10:00 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12JUL199610004511@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31e64330.285719@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:
>>
>>"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
>>       -(Anatole France)
> 
>	In the fields of philosophy it is referred to "Argumentum ad
>populum: availing the validity of an argument by citing others believe
>it too.
> 
>History is loaded with examples of things people believed in enmass
>which are no longer held as true today.

    It is true that almost everyone in the world (who thinks about it)
    thinks that 10-12 million people killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust
    including 6 million or so Jews, 3 million or so of them by gassing in
    the death camps.

    Just because almost everyone thinks this is true does not make it true. 
    Tommy, if you think it is not true, feel free to try to convince us.
    But please do it without resorting to

    - without resorting to absurd mathmatical arguments which don't 
      reflect reality at all
    - without resorting to lying and/or misrepresenting your sources
    - by addressing the questions put to you with logic and evidence
    - without resorting to anti-semitic spewage
    - by addressing the evidence which exists
    - by addressing the historiography which has been undertaken by 
      hundreds, if not thousands, of historians.

    If you can do this, then maybe some of those "almost everyone" will
    begin to pay attention to you.  So far you have violated every point
    stated above.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 13 13:27:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: 12 Jul 1996 09:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12JUL199609393934@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4s2fqq$agu@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s3i74$jk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s4sp7$gs3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4s4sp7$gs3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

>	For those who happen to follow US partisan politics there is an obvious
>and clear example that has been running for the couple weeks.
> 
>	Bob Dole said that he did not think cigarettes habit forming only
>addictive.  

    This is not what he said.

>	Now clearly addiction means that tolerance level increases quickly and
>the dosage increases to obtain the same effect.  The common example is
>opium and it derivatives.

    This is not a good definition of addiction.

>	Yet clearly the term addictive in the US has come to have no meaning and
>that any substance (substance only) that is hard to stop using must be
>called addictive.  Addictive means clearly, hard to stop using.  

    No, that is what habit forming means.  Addiction means a physical
    dependence on the substance.  And nicotine (in cigarettes) is
    addictive.

>	Yet as Dole has learned it is not permitted to use the term additictive
>in any manner other than meaning "hard to stop using."

    Given that you have mis characterized what he said and mischaracterized
    the definition of addiction, your conclusion is meaningless.

>	This is what folks in public have to learn that words have social
>meanings independent facts.  

    This statement is true but wholly independent of any case you built. 
    (And one wonders why Dole would make such a stupid mistake - it doesn't
    bode well for his campaign.)

>	That is what is going on in this gassing nonsense.  It has been elevated
>to "hard to stop" equals "addiction" level of equate.  

    You are yammering.  Just go away.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 14 07:45:20 PDT 1996
Article: 50126 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 13 Jul 1996 21:40 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 128
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4s9li7$20u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	The attorney I have been talking to has added some more advice.  
>	A class action suit is the wrong way to go.  Everyone should sue

    Yeah, it would get tossed out on day one.

>individually and use the results of the previous cases in all the
>following suits.  Sequential suits do not prejudice each other.  

    And if the first suit loses, all the rest of you are probably out of
    luck.  Let Giwer go first so he can drop the most money.

>	And even if this "disclaimer" passes the criteria of being a disclaimer
>for the "director"  
> 
>Nizkor FTP file: DISCLAIMER
> 
>The views expressed within the files archived on this system
>are those of their authors, not necessarily those of Ken McVay
>or the Nizkor Project.
> 
>Kenneth McVay, O.B.C.
>Director
>The Nizkor Project
> 
>	it was added on July 10th this year and anything on line prior to that
>time is still actionable.  

    If the court decides.  Not very likely, but then web sites are mostly
    virgin territory to the law.  Of course, having a liar such as Giwer
    cast the first stone will be lots of fun.

    So, Tommy, whose pockets do you think are deeper, Giwer's or the ZOGs?

>	And it appears the synagogue accepting donations can also be named in
>the suit or dealt with separately.  

    That's one of the wonderful things about these United States, you can
    sue anyone you want to.  Of course, collecting from foreigners may get
    a little tricky.  But I am sure the State Department would love to
    intercede with the Canadian Government and help a loser anti-semite in
    Florida collect from a Canadian OBC.  That's gotta help international
    relations.

>	But in any event, we now have clear evidence of a synagogue promoting
>defamation of character.  

    Well, we have a not-so-clear accusation on the part of the troll...

>	In other words we have a genuine Jewish organization promoting hatred.  

    Actually, what we have is a not-for-profit human rights organization
    that is archiving everything said in a public forum for later use.  And
    we have a Jewish Congregation that is helping to financially support
    them by serving as a conduit for donations.  Only an anti-semite (among
    sane people) would consider this a Jewish organization promoting
    hatred.

>	It is also desirable to name the co-webmasters and have them demonstrate
>to the satisfaction of the court that they should be removed from the
>suit.  To do that they will have to demonstrate they were only following
>orders.  It will be interesting if they think that is a proper excuse.  

    So, now you are the defense attorney too?

>	Also the one in Austin can be named.  

    But apparantly not here.

>	BTW:  It appears there are others with the process already underweigh.  

    BTW: No.  The attachment below does not name Nizkor.  It is simply a
    request to Nizkor to delete some supposedly libelous material.  We
    don't know from this what that material said nor do we know how Mr.
    McVay responded.

>Nizkor FTP file: people/t/thompson.linda/threat-of-suit.01
> 
>From iquest.net!lindat  Wed Jul  3 23:14:16 1996
>Return-Path: 
>Received: by nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Smail3.1.29.1 #8)
>        id m0ubhg6-000SMpC; Wed, 3 Jul 96 23:14 PDT
>Received: from iquest.net (iquest4.iquest.net) by nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ;
>3 JUL 96 23:14:03 PDT
>Received: from ind-000-236-42.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp
>        (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0ubhay-0049EnC; Thu, 4 Jul 96 01:08 EST
>Message-Id: 
>Date: Thu, 4 Jul 96 01:08 EST
>X-Sender: lindat@pop.iquest.net
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>To: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>From: lindat@iquest.net (Linda Thompson)
>Subject: 
>Status: RO
> 
>You are advised that I have already begun the process of suing the
>Anti-Defamation League for writing numerous false and defamatory
>articles
>about me and that you have republished one such article.  You are not
>immune
>from suit in the United States for the republication of libel.
> 
>This is your notice required by Indiana law prior to suit that I intend
>to
>sue you, and the organizations sponsoring you,  Congregation Emanu-El,
>1461
>Blanshard St., Victoria, British Columbia, Canada  V8W 2J3 and  San
>Antonio
>Area Foundation Nizkor Fund, P.O. Box 120366, San Antonio, TX 78212-9566
>for defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress,
>misappropriation of name, and endangering the life and safety of myself
>and
>my family by republishing the ADL article about me on your website.
> 
>Remove it immediately.  I expect an immediate full apology and
>retraction
>for being associated, falsely, by you and by implication, and by
>republication of falsehoods, with so-called "racists" or "nazis."
> 
>Linda Thompson

    I can't wait for Giwer to be deposed!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 14 07:45:21 PDT 1996
Article: 50127 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 13 Jul 1996 21:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199621422975@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <00002fc9+00008a90@msn.com> <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net>  <4s9lua$20u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4s9lua$20u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:29:18 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>
>>># The worm went out and you bit. By "impersonating professor" I
>>># mean that for months I referred to you as "professor" or "the
>>># professor", and suddenly, after my addressing you as that
>>># scores of times,  you informed me you weren't really a professor
>>># but some kind of engineer.
>>>
>>>No. Learn to read. I said that I spent three years as a research
>>>associate at Brown University, in the Division of Engineering, and
>>>that now I teach at a different university.
>>>-Danny Keren.
> 
>>	Where did you say that, former impersonating professor?
> 
>	What is even more interesting is claiming the Engineering Department and
>not showing the slightest comprehension of engineering.  

    Go ahead Danny, sue him!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 14 07:45:22 PDT 1996
Article: 50128 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 13 Jul 1996 21:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199621434970@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4s2kvp$d80@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <4s9n84$107@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4s9n84$107@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 13 Jul 1996 08:01 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4s7ce3$gi1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:27:45 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>>wrote:
>>> 
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>## Get a job, punk. No nazihugger here willing to give this
>>>>## person a job? The punk had to retire at the age of 46, 
>>> 
>>>># Chose to, youngster.  
>>>>#
>>>># There was not much call for clever ways to kill Russians.  
>>> 
>>>>Force them to read all your articles? Nah, too cruel I guess.
>>> 
>>>>So why did you retire? Your text above is self-contradicting.
>>> 
>>>	If you must pry, there was no longer much call for the fun parts of the
>>>job, plenty of the boring stuff like logistics and maintenance, and I
>>>did not have to work.  So why bother?  
>>> 
>>>	There are always other things to do, like starting up a website server
>>>in a few months, with a T1 line, not a pissant thing like Nizkor uses.
> 
>>    Troll.
> 
>	Excuse me.  It is hard to find people these days who think a 28.8
>connection on a 25 MHz machine is impressive.  It is good to see you are
>one of them.  

    Another troll.  Yawn.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 14 07:45:23 PDT 1996
Article: 50130 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 13 Jul 1996 21:54 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 58
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199621544481@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4s2kvp$d80@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <31E6CCCA.83C@unb.ca> <4s9naj$107@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4s9naj$107@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 13 Jul 1996 08:08 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4s7dsc$lig@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:08:10 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
>>> 
>>>>Chose to retire at 46, hmm?  Let's see, you claim to have graduated in '67,
>>>>and assuming a normal 4 year program you'd be 22...24 years later retired,
>>>>that would be 1991 or '92, about the same time as the USSR fell.
>>> 
>>>>Jeez, I'm amazed.  Giwer has related a series of internally consistent
>>>>statements.
>>> 
>>>	The Cold War stand down began in 1988 with the reduction of DEFCON
>>>level.  It was when they stopped maintaining most of their missiles on
>>>the military side, subordinated their military to fiscal concerns and
>>>took the first steps towards establishing an international exchange rate
>>>for their currency.  Technically what killed them was their Marxist
>>>refusal to put a cost on money and thus the ruble had no exchange value
>>>with any but their allies.  
>>> 
>>>	The end finally came with the Gulf War which was not against Iraq but
>>>against the Red Army.  It was to make the case that it was powerless
>>>against the US.  Gorby had gotten control of the KGB and the CPSU and
>>>with that defeat of Russian military equipment he was able to get
>>>control of the the Army.  There were only three power structures in the
>>>SU.  He had them all.  
>>>	
>>>	Their fate was sealed after that war.  Their last serious source of hard
>>>currency was from sales of military hardware.  After that war it was
>>>selling for 10% of its prewar price, i.e. a drug on the market you
>>>couldn't give away.  	
>>> 
>>>	The first five year troop reduction plan was passed in 1990 and we are
>>>in its last effective year.  There should be another troop reduction
>>>plan in the current DOD appropriations bill but I have not taken the
>>>time to dig it out.  If you get passed what is encapsulated for public
>>>consumption you will find the disagreements are over what kind of
>>>weapons are best for the much smaller military we will have in another
>>>five years.  
> 
>>    Nice meandering gibberish, but the fact remains that there is lots of
>>    work to be done in the American military industrial complex.  But
>>    apparently there was no role for Giwer in any of this.
> 
>	What would a school kid know?  

    Apparently more than you do, as you have moved directly to insults. All
    they did was drop the dead weight around '91 or so, and the military
    R&D budgets have gone back up.  The good people moved from the
    government over to the beltway bandits (you know, BBN, SAIC, Logicon,
    PRC, Mitre, etc.) and the losers were put out to pasture.  But you know
    that, troll.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 14 14:49:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50250 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 13 Jul 1996 08:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199608010150@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4s2kvp$d80@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <4s7ce3$gi1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4s7ce3$gi1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:27:45 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
> 
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>## Get a job, punk. No nazihugger here willing to give this
>>## person a job? The punk had to retire at the age of 46, 
> 
>># Chose to, youngster.  
>>#
>># There was not much call for clever ways to kill Russians.  
> 
>>Force them to read all your articles? Nah, too cruel I guess.
> 
>>So why did you retire? Your text above is self-contradicting.
> 
>	If you must pry, there was no longer much call for the fun parts of the
>job, plenty of the boring stuff like logistics and maintenance, and I
>did not have to work.  So why bother?  
> 
>	There are always other things to do, like starting up a website server
>in a few months, with a T1 line, not a pissant thing like Nizkor uses.

    Troll.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 15 07:12:53 PDT 1996
Article: 50315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: 13 Jul 1996 08:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199608192997@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4s7opu$nce@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4s7opu$nce@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>that is about it) content.
> 
>	Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.  

    What a great place ofor us to house all of our evidence of Giwer's
    trolling, spamming, lying, and incompetence!  We will quickly find out
    to what extent this ISP really supports free speech!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 15 07:12:54 PDT 1996
Article: 50387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: 13 Jul 1996 22:11 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199622113079@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4s2fqq$agu@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4s3i74$jk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s4sp7$gs3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4s9qeu$lgr@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4s9qeu$lgr@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 13 Jul 1996 08:14 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    Nice try at changing the subject.
> 
>	The subject was the general form of the issue as in why care about
>whatever it is, habit forming or addictive.  TV is habit forming.
>Waking up at a certain time on weekdays is habit forming.  The real
>issue is why care?  
> 
>>    The AMA says that cigarettes are addictive.  If you have medical
>>    evidence to contradict them, go ahead and present it.  I doubt many
>>    will accept Shakespeare as legitimate medical evidence.
> 
>	If you have never heard of suicide over a lost love then you are advised
>to start with Shakespeare.  If you have never heard of murder over same,
>start with the same source.  Those are real dangers.  

    The AMA says cigarettes are addictive, C. Everett Koop says cigarettes
    are addictive, every researcher who has studied the matter in the last
    thirty years (save those funded by the tobacco industry) say cigarettes
    are addictive, internal tobacco industry memos say cigarettes are
    addictive.  You and Bob Dole say they are not.  Go ahead, enjoy, smoke
    yourself to death.

>>    And I note that you do not dispute my assertion that you got the Bob
>>    Dole quotes wrong.  Therefore, yur original point is not moot.
> 
>	His first statement that started this was that some people can walk away
>from cigarettes without concern.  That is of course true.

    Some people can break out of straight-jackets while submerged head
    first in a tank.  Go figure.

>	Many more could do so if they can reject the public perception that it
>is difficult to quit just as the greatest problem for many heavy
>drinkers is getting over the public perception that there is a problem
>with stopping drinking.  

    Great.  No way I am taking drinking advice from a reputed alchoholic. 
    Next topic.

    [Incessant yammering deleted.  Giwer calls me a youth, but he has no
    idea my age - or my life experiences.]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 15 07:12:55 PDT 1996
Article: 50388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199622151832@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <4r471c$691@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rcemf$m5i@shiva.usa.net> <4s9s3d$1190@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4s9s3d$1190@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>, EEGG87A@prodigy.com (A Huber) writes...
>>
>>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer has made dozens, if not hundreds, of claims
>>thus far, and has never provided a single shred of supporting data
>>when asked nicely by participants in this group. 
> 
>This is a REVISIONIST Newsgroup.   j*ws are not "participants", but 
>rather spammers and flamers. Why should anyone waste the time to provide 
>a j*w with supporting data? The group is for discussion amongst persons 
>holding similar views. The sooner the revisionists understand this, the 
>higher will be the quality of discourse.

    Talk amongst yourselves.  Now THERES an effective way to convince
    others.  Sheesh, the stupidity of these losers is amazing.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 15 09:39:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50406 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 15 Jul 1996 07:05 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199607052237@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sb2nq$kun@news.enter.net> <31e90d69.9088329@news.pacificnet.net> <31e9770d.1715142@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31e9770d.1715142@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31e90d69.9088329@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran  wrote:
>>>	I wonder how many frivolous lawsuits this YFE idiot has filed in
>>>his goofy career?
>>
>>    I wonder how many childish and mindless insults (like this one) this
>>Tom Moran idiot has posted in this newsgroup in his goofy career? 
> 
>	Why don't you post the evidence Mr.Stein? Thats what I do. 

    That's a joke, right?  Heh, actually, pretty funny, zeyde.

>Barring this, your statement is nothing more than a statement. Your
>statement, nothing more. 
> 
>>
>>-- 
>>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 15 19:32:05 PDT 1996
Article: 50514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!mhv.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 15 Jul 1996 06:51 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
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In article <4sa8a5$i3q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4s9s3d$1190@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>, EEGG87A@prodigy.com (A Huber) writes...
>>>>
>>>>Furthermore, Mr. Giwer has made dozens, if not hundreds, of claims
>>>>thus far, and has never provided a single shred of supporting data
>>>>when asked nicely by participants in this group. 
>>> 
>>>This is a REVISIONIST Newsgroup.   j*ws are not "participants", but 
>>>rather spammers and flamers. Why should anyone waste the time to provide 
>>>a j*w with supporting data? The group is for discussion amongst persons 
>>>holding similar views. The sooner the revisionists understand this, the 
>>>higher will be the quality of discourse.
> 
>>    Talk amongst yourselves.  Now THERES an effective way to convince
>>    others.  Sheesh, the stupidity of these losers is amazing.
> 
>>                         daniel david mittleman 
>>===========================================================================
>>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"
> 
>	Dear jerkoff Jew,

    I am as atheist as you are, just not as obnoxious about it (thought I
    had mentioned this before.)

>	Shall I do it again?

    What, jerkoff?  (I can't follow your incoherent ramblings and this
    adjective is the only thing above that seems to resemble a verb for
    which "it" could be referring.  Oh for the help of a Giweridian
    linguist.)

>	You are not welcome.

    Thank you, Emily Postnews.

>	This is not your newsgroup.

    Like you understand the history of alt.revisionism.  Like you can claim
    any ownership at all over this group.  Like anyone accepts your opinion
    as valid on any topic around here.  Like what you say matters.  Ha.

>	Go away.

    That's the wonderful thing about usenet, no one can make us go away. 
    In fact, that is the ONLY reason you are still here.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 02:18:50 PDT 1996
Article: 50598 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
Date: 15 Jul 1996 19:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199619324488@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31e8eaac.195752@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>
>>	Half of the 6,000,000 Jews said to have been exterminated are
>>said to have been from Poland.
>>	Germany is said to have had 300,000 or so. All the surrounding
>>nations are said have had anywhere from a few thousand to a hundred
>>thousand.
>>	
>	Making the figures of 3,000,000 Polish Jews more rediculous is
>the fact the Jews have a history of gravitating to commercially
>favorable conditions where capitalizing is more opportune. After all,
>this is where their main focus is. Since we could very well show that
>such places as Germany, France, Austria, Italy and England would be
>and were high areas for commercial opportunity, we might wonder how
>three or four times as many Jews ended up in Poland than all the rest
>put together.

    So, Tommy, are you saying that all the demographic studies prior to
    World War II which showed about 3,000,000 Jews in Poland were lies or
    were in error?

    Why would this be?  What possible gain could have there been for the
    demographers in the 20s and 30s to have published such incorrect
    material?  What would have led to this gross error of fact?

    Or, are you spouting off on something you know absolutely nothing
    about?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 02:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 50599 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nitzkor im Bau
Date: 15 Jul 1996 19:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 101
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199619431447@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31e8ed2a.833596@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <31e79834.637898@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>In article <31e64330.285719@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>>>EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
>>>>>>       -(Anatole France)
>>>>> 
>>>>>	In the fields of philosophy it is referred to "Argumentum ad
>>>>>populum: availing the validity of an argument by citing others believe
>>>>>it too.
>>>>> 
>>>>>History is loaded with examples of things people believed in enmass
>>>>>which are no longer held as true today.
>>>>
>>>>    It is true that almost everyone in the world (who thinks about it)
>>>>    thinks that 10-12 million people killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust
>>>>    including 6 million or so Jews, 3 million or so of them by gassing in
>>>>    the death camps.
>>>>
>>>>    Just because almost everyone thinks this is true does not make it true. 
>>>>    Tommy, if you think it is not true, feel free to try to convince us.
>>>>    But please do it without resorting to
>>>>
>>>>    - without resorting to absurd mathmatical arguments which don't 
>>>>      reflect reality at all
>>>>    - without resorting to lying and/or misrepresenting your sources
>>>>    - by addressing the questions put to you with logic and evidence
>>>>    - without resorting to anti-semitic spewage
>>>>    - by addressing the evidence which exists
>>>>    - by addressing the historiography which has been undertaken by 
>>>>      hundreds, if not thousands, of historians.
>>>>
>>>>    If you can do this, then maybe some of those "almost everyone" will
>>>>    begin to pay attention to you.  So far you have violated every point
>>>>    stated above.
>>> 
>>>	Interesting barrage of unsubstantiated conclusions. 
>>
>>    I wrote:
>>  #Tommy, if you think it is not true, feel free to try to convince us.
>>  #But please do it without resorting to
>>  #- without resorting to absurd mathmatical arguments which don't 
>>  #  reflect reality at all
>>
>>    I looked but could find no such post from you, if I am wrong simply
>>    point us to one and I will retract.
>>
>>  #- without resorting to lying and/or misrepresenting your sources
>>
>>    I looked but could find no such post from you, if I am wrong simply
>>    point us to one and I will retract.
>>
>>  #- by addressing the questions put to you with logic and evidence
>>
>>    I looked but could find no such post from you, if I am wrong simply
>>    point us to one and I will retract.
>>
>>  #- without resorting to anti-semitic spewage
>>
>>    I looked but could find no such post from you, if I am wrong simply
>>    point us to one and I will retract.
>>
>>  #- by addressing the evidence which exists
>>
>>    I looked but could find no such post from you, if I am wrong simply
>>    point us to one and I will retract.
>>
>>  #- by addressing the historiography which has been undertaken by 
>>  #  hundreds, if not thousands, of historians.
>>
>>    I looked but could find no such post from you, if I am wrong simply
>>    point us to one and I will retract.
>>
>>    But you can't so you won't.  You are a liar and an anti-semite whose
>>    agenda has been shown to be HATE HATE HATE.
> 
>	Interesting reiteration of the barrage of unsubstantiated
>conclusions. 

    Very feeble response Tommy.  But then I guess you have no more than
    that to contribute.  I stand by my assertions above.  As my assertions
    are negations (I say you have written no post to dispute them) you can
    do so simply by showing us such posts.  You didn't first time I made
    the assertion.  You didn't the second time I made the assertion.  And
    you won't now - because you can't.

    Your contributions (and I use the term loosely) to this group are lies,
    anti-semitic rants, and largely incoherent garbage.  You make stupid
    bald assertions (like there weren't 3,000,000 Jews in Poland prior to
    WWII or there can't be 200,000,000 trees in Israel) which you can't
    defend, and you spout bigoted hateful rants when cornered by these
    errors.

    And you repeat this process over and over.  It isn't very pretty.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 02:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 50608 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!mhv.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 15 Jul 1996 06:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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Distribution: world
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In article <4sa8p3$i3q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 13 Jul 1996 21:54 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <4s9naj$107@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

>>>	What would a school kid know?  
> 
>>    Apparently more than you do, as you have moved directly to insults. All
>>    they did was drop the dead weight around '91 or so, and the military
>>    R&D budgets have gone back up.  The good people moved from the
>>    government over to the beltway bandits (you know, BBN, SAIC, Logicon,
>>    PRC, Mitre, etc.) and the losers were put out to pasture.  But you know
>>    that, troll.
> 
>	Just to keep this all growing as you are the asshole who does not know
>how to delete ...  
> 
>	You know not word one about TOTAL budgets or inflation.
> 
>	Other than that, you have mastered the big red switch. 
> 
>	If you are too young to remember the swithch, then you need to grow up
>before you address your elders.   

    Length of post flames from the man^h^h^hboy who does not get emotional
    when he posts.  Heh heh, he really is hanging by his last threads...

    Face it Mattypoo.  They booted you out, and I am still there.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 03:09:26 PDT 1996
Article: 50625 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 15 Jul 1996 19:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199619232078@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4saqrp$cbg@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes...
>In article ,
>Daniel Keren  wrote:
>>
>>brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) writes:
>>
>>[A whole lot of empty rhetoric deleted]
> 
>[and a little more snipped by me]
> 
> 
>># There are no documents, no orders, no planning, no blueprints
>>
>>There you go. This is an outright lie; there are orders, there
>>are blueprints, there are documents. Some are routinely
>>posted here.
>>
>[...]
>>
>>[Regarding testimonies of SS-men about gassings]
>>
>># Most are "coerced" confessions, as in "sign this or we'll pull 
>># some more of your fingernails out.  Or we'll turn your wife and 
>># children over to the Russians."
>>
>>Another outright lie. There is no proof that *one* such testimony
>>was obtained by such means. Moreover, a great many such testimonies
>>were given to German courts, and I haven't yet seen one "revisionist"
>>who claimed the Germans tortured these German SS-men into confessing.
>>
>>It seems you're a pathological liar; if not, why are you lying
>>so much? Please explain.
> 
>    Perhaps he has just swallowed and regurgitated the lies of others?

    I find it interesting that Mr. Hagen came it with a flurry and a very
    well dressed precis, but once that precis was dissected by several
    correspondents, Mr. Hagen made one or two loose attempts at shoring it
    up receding every so slightly into bald assertions and has since failed
    to reshow his face in the group.

    It is too bad.  Based on the initial post of Mr. Hagen, I was looking
    forward to serious discussion.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 08:46:33 PDT 1996
Article: 50656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!news.sfo.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUL 3-4: 11.1% / 20%
Date: 15 Jul 1996 22:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199622224247@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:169 alt.revisionism:50656

In article <31e8fc95.3776546@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com writes...
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
>>jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca wrote:
>>
>>>          Articles from Matt Giwer: 49 (11.1%)
>>
>>Well, it looks like the Giwer is getting back to tolerable levels:
>>twenty-five a day, or so.
>>
>>Is it time to declare the crisis over and try to get on with the
>>discussions on this group as normal?
>>-- 
> 
>The moment I un-killfile him, he'll probably go back up to 100 a day.
>So if you declare the crisis over, do I start reading him again? Or
>would his count go up because those of us who have him turned off will
>start to respond to him. I don't mind him responding but the
>speciousness, nastiness, and downright boringness of his replies do
>not make it worthwile. 
> 
>Unless he has changed. Has he changed?

    He has changed for the worse.  He is shorter tempered, more insulting,
    and less coherent than he used to be.  Gord and Alex are right - he is
    very close to cracking and only worth reading for humor value (which
    wears thin very quickly.)

    He is also posting much more than 25 messages a day, I suspect.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 08:46:34 PDT 1996
Article: 50661 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!indus.globalserve.net!jolt.pagesat.net!ossi.com!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bookburnings!
Date: 15 Jul 1996 22:20 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199622204298@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4scu8l$jn3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer) writes...
>I get a newsletter called SMITH'S REPORT which is put out by Bradley Smith
>of CODOH (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust).  The current issue
>has an article in it about something that is very disturbing.
> 
>In Germany a book called "GRUNDLAGEN ZUR ZEITGESCHICHTE" has been
>banned by a German judge, and the judge ordered that all copies of it be
>BURNED.  The editor of the book was being prosecuted for publishing it
>and the judge came up with this doozie as part of the general punishment.
> 
>I have a copy of this book.  It's a collection of revisionist essays,
>including
>forensic reports.  It disturbs me to know that while this book is sitting
>here
>on my bookshelf, in another 'free democracy' it is being BURNED.  I wonder
>how long it will be before the Anti-Defamation League, the Simon
>Wiesenthal
>Center, and other Jewish groups, will manage to get this kind of
>repression
>going over here in the USA too?  It's what they want, isn' it?

    Can't say what they want, but we here on alt.revisionism have
    repeatedly stated we are for free and open speech.  I don't think any
    of the regular posters to a.r would be in favor of burning all copies
    of this book.  I most certainly am not.

>Burning books because the opinions or facts inside of them offends
>powerful
>special interest groups (in this case Jews) is disgraceful.  I think that
>every
>single person in this Newsgroup should condemn this absolutely, both
>revisionist and anti-revisionist.
> 
>Ok, I am the first one:  I condemn book burnings!
> 
>Who's next?  I want to see scores of people joining with me on this.

    I will share your condemnation and do you one better.  I bet if you
    offered to scan essays from the book into the computer that Nizkor
    would be willing to archive them (should copyright issues be worked
    out.)  Do you want to take the lead with the publisher and see if they
    will permit essays from the book to be readily available online?

    NB: I can't speak for Nizkor, but archiving these essays is consistent
    with their actions in the past.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 08:46:35 PDT 1996
Article: 50662 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!indus.globalserve.net!jolt.pagesat.net!ossi.com!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in the manner of suiing
Date: 15 Jul 1996 22:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199622285869@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4seavl$moa@lendl.cc.emory.edu> 
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In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes...
>In article <4seavl$moa@lendl.cc.emory.edu> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>:       
>>:       Also of interest is that there are six or seven contributors listed on
>>: the Nizkor site.  Two of them are "co-webmasters" but certainly it is
>>: possible they are contributing defamatory material making the RICO
>>: conspiracy even wider and more people to be named.
> 
>>Ooh!  Ooh!  I've spoken with Ken about doing work for Nizkor, but I 
>>haven't managed to clear up the time yet to do it.  If I mark up just
>>one little page, Matt, will you PLEASE include me in this lawsuit?  I
>>smell a big ol' countersuit, and I could really use the money.
> 
>There's not a lot of point to this.  Giwer is almost certainly judgment proof 
>-- what are you going to do, put a lien on the use of his (rented) trailer?  

    You could garnish his disability income.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 08:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 50663 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocuster's Last Stand
Date: 15 Jul 1996 22:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 97
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In article <31ea4ce2.4002165@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>                       [repost]
>	
>	There are many aspects to the Holocaust story. Numbers, methods,
>and locations are the basic ingredients. How many people were
>exterminated, how and where.

    This is true.  Well researched and well documented.

>	This could be listed under two general headings, camps and field.

    It is actually much more complicated than that, but OK.

>	The camps would be those places set up or eventually modified
>especially for the purpose of mass extermination.

    There were, as Tommy knows, over 10,000 camps of varying size and type.
    Only a half dozen or so of these were extermination camps. 
    Nevertheless, literally millions were killed at these half dozen
    extermination camps.

>	The field would head all the things said to have happened outside
>of the camps as to mass extermination.

    OK, the field is what Tommy will call the location for all of the
    deaths outside of the camps.  This totals several million.  What, 5, 6,
    7 million?  (Does someone know that correct estimate for this?)

>	Many of the camps once said to have been extermination centers
>have already been deleted from the story, as is the same for many
>methods once said to have been used.  

    This is untrue.  There are no camps which historians once labeled as
    extermination camps that are no longer labeled as such.  When pressed
    in the past Tommy has been unable to support this assertion with old
    historical documents that name such camps which are no longer named in
    recent historical documents.

>	As for the killings in the field, next to nothing has been found
>that would even remotely substantiate the huge numbers said to have
>been killed, sometimes as many 40,000 all in one night at a single
>location.

    There are logs and reports from the SS officers who led the killing
    summarizing how many were killed in each town as the armies moved
    through.  I can't speak one way or another to 40,000 in one night.  I
    can say that there is solid evidence of millions of deaths in the
    "field".

>	After all this and aside from all that is left, the conflict
>between truth and fiction is all focused on Auschwitz. 

    No, that is a strawman.  Outside of Auschwitz there are reams of
    documentary evidence, physical evidence, and testimony to corroborate
    and support the proof that many millions were killed by the Nazis.

>	Auschwitz is the soup can at the bottom of the pyramide. The
>cornerstone. The focus of the whole story. Center stage. The last
>tension in the wind up toy. Once the world sanity comes to recognize
>the myths of Auschwitz everything else tumbles, melts and crys.

    Not true, and notice Tommy presents no logic or evidence to support his
    assertion.

>	All the talk about populations, the 3,000,000 names collected,
>all the big tales, all the little tales, all the witnesses, all the
>interpretations, all the confirming research, all the books, all the
>museums, all the activity of the last fifty years, all will follow.

    Huh?

>	Auschwitz, the vital frontier. When it all falls, it will be
>Humpty Dumpty time. All the books and all the museums or anything else
>will not be able to sustain belief or acceptance in whatever remains.

    First, the premise this is based on is incorrect.  The Holocaust facts
    do not depend in any way on evidence about Auschwitz.  Second, Tommy
    has presented nothing here to make us doubt the evidence about
    Auschwitz.  So this assertion (nay, this whole post!) is hollow.

>	Only a major revision to the First Amendment, enforced by 
>totalitarian authority, can keep the Holocaust story true.

    Then why has Nizkor and associated posters repeatedly favored free and
    open speech?  Why, for example, when CODOH's site was blocked did
    several people directly or indirectly associated with Nizkor write to
    PSNW and protest?  Why did one such poster (Rich Graves) offer to
    immediately re-establish CODOH's site at his own domain?  Why was there
    unanimous verbal support in a.r in favor of CODOH's right to put
    forward their message?

    Your assertion seems to be in contradiction with what we just saw
    happen last week.  How do you resolve this contradiction, Tommy?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 08:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 50666 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: 15 Jul 1996 23:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 70
Distribution: world
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References: <31eafe62.18662855@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31eafe62.18662855@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	On 5/9/96 Moran posted "The Holocaust Plea", reporting on an
>article published in the L.A.Times where a person claimed he had lost
>120 relatives in the Holocaust. When doubts were raised as to this
>extraordinary claim, it eventually led to a Mr.Edeiken claiming to
>have lost 160 relatives in the Holocaust.
> 
>Mr.Edeiken:
>"Sorry, L'il Tommy.  Not hard at all.  The family tree for one side of
>my family lists 136 known victims of the Holocaust.  The sad truth is
>that that is what was done by the nazis you admire so much.  They
>murdered people.  They wiped out families.  They didn't care whether
>they were men or women or children.  They murdered them all.  And you
>lmake excuses for them."
> 
>Moran ask:
>	Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
>arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.
>  
>Mr.Edeiken:
>	Sure.  I looked at my family tree and counted.  The actaul total
>was 160 (including relatives by marraige).
> 
>Mr.Giwer ask:
>  	Can you name 132 (120 + 12 more or less)ancestral relatives and
>  the manner in which they died?  That is without even going into
>  other requirements for this to be true.
> 
>Mr.Edeiken:
>	Yes.
> 
>Moran:
>I don't believe it. One iota. It would be fun to see the idiocy of his
>accounting.  
> 
>Mr.Edeiken:
>	Sure can L'il Tommy.  Just ask and the full list will be e-mailed
>to you.  By the way, you are lying again.  Didn't your mother teach
>you any better?
> 
>Moran:
>	Okay. But don't just send me a list of names. Anyone can do that.
> 
>	
>Mr.Edeiken:
>	I am commuting to Scranton for a trial right now.  I will provide
>you with a list of the murdered this weekend.

    Then Mr. Edeiken sent you e-mail retracting his offer.

>                        ===================
> 
>	Okay there we have it. Mr.Edeiken blurting out he lost 160
>relatives in the Holocaust and ending up saying he was going to supply
>the list and documentation that weekend, which was 8 weekends, 2
>months, 60 days ago.
> 
>	Is this the same Mr.Edeiken who is always calling people "liars"
>and "cowards"?  Why YES, it is the same Mr.Edeiken.

    Except you left out mention of Mr. Edeiken's e-mail to you.  Doesn't
    that make you a liar?  You might have a legitimate complaint about him
    retracting his offer, but only if you put forward complete information
    to lay out such a complaint.  If you lie by omission, you are no better
    than you claim he is.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 08:46:37 PDT 1996
Article: 50681 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 16 Jul 1996 06:47 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 46
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References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s4drj$8c@news1.io.org> <4s52ad$qpu@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E6AEAA.59E9@gryn.org> <4sfk1j$4gs@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4sfk1j$4gs@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 15 Jul 1996 11:49:54 GMT, alec@gryn.org@    (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
> 
>>In <4sd6rm$o60@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>>	I gave you local prices.   And I thought GTE was a ripoff.  Turns out
>>>they are a bargain.
> 
>>I'm talking about the full feed, not the T1 alone. That includes
>>connection to the provider's feed, hardware, the works.
> 
>	The "works" on the hardware include little things like an $8000 router.
> 
> 
>	Perhaps you need to define things a little better.  
> 
>	If you just mean dropping the extra one time cost of a machine, that is
>another $1000 coming up to $3000 which is close enough to your ballpark.
> 
> 
>	If you want to talk the whole thing, that runs about $40,000 minimum in
>hardware and software and double that to have a really good set up as a
>provider.  
> 
>	But then if you really mean just getting on to a provider's site that
>depends upon the provider.  I can make a better deal than you are
>talking about.  Check out providers and see what you can get.  I found
>one whose terms I like.  Going further would be discussing business.
>Find your own.  
> 
>	And no guarantee I will do it, just that it looks like a source of
>income for a modest initial investment.  And, yes, my numbers are firm.

    Ha!  Giwer's not going to start such a business.  It's just more
    trolling.  And if he did, at $500 a pop he'd get nary a customer.  And
    when he brought his prices down to actually attract customers, he will
    also attract every enemy he's made over the years on bbs's.  No way his
    upstream link would put up with the kind of shenanigans that would be
    going on with his site.

    Not a threat (I have no knowledge of how to do such things - I'm just a
    school kid), just a prediction.  Call it psychic.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 15:54:25 PDT 1996
Article: 50779 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!oronet!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!malgudi.oar.net!rclnews.eng.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.dan.gannon.nazi.scum,alt.communism.moderated,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Differences between Communisism and Socialism
Date: 15 Jul 1996 22:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
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References: <31E1DABE.6E8F@mail.internet.com.mx>  <31E9C4C7.34@mail.internet.com.mx> <4sd437$7rg@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4sd437$7rg@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>[Marx] in fact advocated that serfs should live in the mold of the landed
>gentry or nobility if you like that term.   He did nothing else but
>contrive a piecemeal concoction of nonsense to suggest it could happen.

>He was completely wrong and only twice was the idea successfully
>implemented.  

    Well, that would make him not *completely* wrong, wouldn't it?

    {giggle}  {yawn}

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 15:54:25 PDT 1996
Article: 50783 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in the manner of suiing
Date: 15 Jul 1996 22:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199622244246@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <31EACC20.954@unb.ca>
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In article <31EACC20.954@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes...
> 
>And Giwer enters the same elite group as Scientology and Canter and Siegel.

    I have more respect for Canter and Siegel than I do for Giwer. 

    /snicker

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 15:54:26 PDT 1996
Article: 50784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in the manner of suiing
Date: 15 Jul 1996 22:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <15JUL199622271373@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4se8l4$hfd@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes...
>In article <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
> 
>>	The joint and several liability under RICO for treble damages should be
>>of interest to most any "contributor."
> 
>    At most I am responsible for bass damages.  If Mr. Giwer is having
>problems with his treble he is out of luck.

    There's a woofer and tweeter joke in there somewhere.  Gord?  Marty?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 17:19:06 PDT 1996
Article: 50799 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group...
Date: 16 Jul 1996 07:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 63
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199607012417@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4sfteg$mg8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
>In article <4sd664$8dk@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) said:
> 
>>
>>On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:22:12 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:
> 
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On 13 Jul 1996 22:15 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>>>> Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>>>         Dear jerkoff Jew,
>>>> 
>>>>         Shall I do it again?
>>>> 
>>>>         You are not welcome.
>>>> 
>>>>         This is not your newsgroup.
>>>> 
>>>>         Go away.
> 
>>>1. Danny Mittleman was here long before you crawled in from whatever fetid
>>>   swamp you emerged from.
> 
>>	Actually I was here before he showed up but there was a hiatus in my
>>participation.  He is one of the actionable newcomers.  
> 
>That of course, as all of us old-timers know, an absolute lie, from the
>master of lies.

    Yes.  Maybe I could get Cecelia Clancy to testify on my behalf?  You
    remember Cecelia, don't you Mattypoo?

>>>2. "Dear jerkoff Jew" is a fine way to start a response considering that
>>>   you are threatening to sue someone for calling you an antisemite.

    Just one more data point to show that his threats are hollow.

>>	Since the "charter" of Nizkor is wider than that antisemitic is the least
>>of the points.  
> 
>>	If you wish to go further, the AS complaint is against a group, this is
>>directed towards an individual.  
> 
>>	That makes it no different from "You jerkoff liberal."   Get over it.  

    Or in the case of Giwer, "you jerkoff souse."  Of course I, according
    to Giwer's reputation, would have an easier time proving him a souse
    than he proving me a Jew.  Not that he is ever going to actually take
    any of this to court, mind you.

>>	Your concept of antisemitic is self-serving.
> 
>Mr. Giwer's concept of humanity is non-existent.  A rather sad case.

    You really have to wonder what wrong was done to him to make him this
    way.  If he didn't piss me off so much by posting trolls, spam,
    threats, lies, and disinformation to often, I'd probably pity him.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 20:28:34 PDT 1996
Article: 50843 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 16 Jul 1996 06:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199606392802@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <4r471c$691@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rcemf$m5i@shiva.usa.net> <4sffh3$2lt@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4sffh3$2lt@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 15 Jul 1996 06:51 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4sa8a5$i3q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

>>>	Dear jerkoff Jew,
> 
>>    I am as atheist as you are, just not as obnoxious about it (thought I
>>    had mentioned this before.)
> 
>	Where is a written a Jew can not be an atheist?  

    I hadn't realized you were also Jewish.  Mazal tov, Mr. Giwer.  And
    shalom too.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 16 23:54:06 PDT 1996
Article: 50880 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question about the tone of language in this group... (was Re: Baron exp...
Date: 16 Jul 1996 22:52 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
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References:  <4r471c$691@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rcemf$m5i@shiva.usa.net> <31EC1024.6A35@unb.ca>
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In article <31EC1024.6A35@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes...
>Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
>> >1. Danny Mittleman was here long before you crawled in from whatever fetid
>> >   swamp you emerged from.
>> 
>>         Actually I was here before he showed up but there was a hiatus in my
>> participation.  He is one of the actionable newcomers.
> 
>For the record, will someone please inform Mr Giwer when alt.revisionism
>was created?  I started reading in early '93 and I don't believe it was
>created very long before that.

    I believe I first poked my head in in March 92 and it was going strong
    at that time.  And I got here sometime after several of the Dan Gannon
    aliases had made their appearance.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 00:41:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50888 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 16 Jul 1996 22:54 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
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References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s4drj$8c@news1.io.org> <4s52ad$qpu@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E6AEAA.59E9@gryn.org> <31EBCBDE.61A9@gryn.org>
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In article <31EBCBDE.61A9@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  writes...
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On 15 Jul 1996 11:49:54 GMT, alec@gryn.org@    (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>> 
>> >I'm talking about the full feed, not the T1 alone. That includes
>> >connection to the provider's feed, hardware, the works.
>> 
>>         The "works" on the hardware include little things like an $8000 router.
>> 
> 
>?!? An Ascend P130 is less than $1800 CDN - and it handles ISDN on the
>side!

    I'll bet Matt pays retail.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 00:41:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50890 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199623014593@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31eafe62.18662855@news.pacificnet.net> <15JUL199623572421@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31eb9129.2097805@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31eb9129.2097805@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>    Then Mr. Edeiken sent you e-mail retracting his offer.
>>
>>    Except you left out mention of Mr. Edeiken's e-mail to you.  Doesn't
>>    that make you a liar?  You might have a legitimate complaint about him
>>    retracting his offer, but only if you put forward complete information
>>    to lay out such a complaint.  If you lie by omission, you are no better
>>    than you claim he is.
> 
>	How is it you would know Mr.Edeiken sent me anything? 

    /wizard of oz voice on

    	I am Marduk.  I know everything.

    /voice off

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 00:41:17 PDT 1996
Article: 50891 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
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In article <31eb96da.3554086@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    Except you left out mention of Mr. Edeiken's e-mail to you.  Doesn't
>>    that make you a liar?  You might have a legitimate complaint about him
>>    retracting his offer, but only if you put forward complete information
>>    to lay out such a complaint.  If you lie by omission, you are no better
>>    than you claim he is.
>>
>	I wonder if Mr.Mittleman took it on his own to post this
>"retracting" alibi or if Mr.Edeiken e-amiled him to post it?
> 
>	Don't get too confortable Mr.(s) Edeiken and Mittleman, this is
>not one of the ensuing "logical questions" I mentioned would be
>forthcoming.

    Obviously not!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 00:41:18 PDT 1996
Article: 50893 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199623093266@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31eb9155.2141745@news.pacificnet.net> <4sh1m2$5mr@news.enter.net>
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In article <4sh1m2$5mr@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...
>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
>>  >	How is it you would know Mr.Edeiken sent me anything? 
> 
>>  	We can carry on with the next logical questions after you get
>>  done baby talking this one.
> 
>	Because I annouced that I had.  Duh.

    Yeah!

    And Mr. Edeiken has, over the past several months, established a good
    deal of credibility in my eyes.  I have no reason to believe he would
    be mistaken on this point.

    However, I had not considered until this evening the possibility that
    Tommy might be too dumb to properly use his rigii to read his mail.  It
    may of been send, but never received.  That is a distinct possibility
    we have to consider.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 07:36:01 PDT 1996
Article: 50930 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199623161320@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4s5oct$pc7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s6513$122@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sftet$2tok@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4sg99t$2dg@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <4sg99t$2dg@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>Gord McFee (gmcfee@ibm.net) wrote:
>: In article <4s6513$122@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>: said:
> 
>: >You guys don't know when you've got it good.  Back in _my_ generation we
>: >didn't even have legs.  We had to roll ourselves to school and back.  When
>: >it snowed, you'd get there in a ball ten feet thick!
>: 
>: You think *you* had it tough?  In _my_ generation, we didn't even have
>: schools.  But we had to walk 30 miles a day to cut the wood to heat them
>: anyway.  Just in case we ever had one.
> 
>In my MY generation, we had schools, but we didn't have wood, and we
>had to burn our legs to stay warm.  

    In MY generation, we had to burn our legs to stay warm and THEN we had
    to walk home.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 10:59:30 PDT 1996
Article: 50998 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bradley's Auschwitz Denial Cult & Edu.-'Net Wannabes
Date: 17 Jul 1996 06:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
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References: <4sdqlo$q2n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sgpf6$n4j@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4shbmo$mmd@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4sifk7$3s2@news.ios.com>
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In article <4sifk7$3s2@news.ios.com>, Martin  Davis  writes...
>rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

[Rich's post snipped; just the signature kept]

>>-rich
>> censor the internet! http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/
>> boycott fadetoblack! http://www.fadetoblack.com/prquest.htm
> 
> Censor the internet ? I guess the men who paid for free speech with 
>their lives means nothing to you. The only people who want censorship are 
>those with something to hide or transfere responsibility.

    You don't know much about Mr. Graves, do you Mr. Davis?  You haven't
    looked at that site even, have you Mr. Davis?  Mr. Davis, you look
    awfully stupid when you are running for a touchdown into the wrong
    endzone.  Next time you might want to do a modicum of research before
    you make accusations.

> Again we see the standford.ed link. More parasites stealing other 
>peoples money. 

    No, more academics engaging in academic freedom.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 12:17:19 PDT 1996
Article: 51038 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:38 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 105
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199623382961@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rq9n8$9f3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rrf70$il2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31EC0EA6.6718@mail.gte.net>
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In article <31EC0EA6.6718@mail.gte.net>, Bud  writes...
>Brlhagen wrote:
>> 
>> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) on 6 Jul 1996 13:20
>> MST
>> in commenting on my article "Revisionism Defined"
>>  said:
>> 
>> > As you are offering us a "precis" of Holocaust revisonism, might you
>> >     tell us a little about yourself so that we know whether you speak
>> > for
>> >     the bulk of the revisionists out there?  Is Bruce Hagen your real
>> > name?
>> >     Have you done any Holocaust revisionist work yourself?  Are you
>> > aligned
>> >     - or a member - of any specific group practicing or promoting
>> > Holocaust
>> >     revisionism?
>> >
>> >     By what reasoning or authority do you speak for "revisionists"?
>> 
>> No doubt you'd also like my address, my date of birth, my employment
>> records, my most recent resume, names of wife and children, etc.  Sorry
>> but I know too well the consequences of being "public" with incorrect
>> attitudes and thinking such as mine.  I could be a defender of Stalin,
>> Farrakhan, Tojo or Ghengis Khan and would have no problem on (especially
>> on) or off campus.  But saying something objective about revisionism,
>> something that comes up short of denouncing it as the world's most heinous
>> posture, is designed, I am quite aware, to cause me and mine nothing but
>> serious trouble.  So pardon me if I maintain anonymity.
>> 
>> What I said, incidentally, is my reading of what serious and rational
>> revisionists are saying (and, obviously, what I am saying).  I speak only
>> for myself and am not a member of any group putting forth an "official"
>> revisionist position.  I don't defend revisionist positions that differ
>> from mine.  Nor do I denounce them.  Sorry, I thought this was all
>> obvious.
>> 
>> > No, "Jewish Holocaust" is not an improved term.  Such a term diminishes
>> >     the suffering and deaths of non-Jews (5 to 6 million or so of them.)
>> >  I
>> >     prefer the term "Nazi Holocaust" naming the perpetrators rather than
>> >     the victims.  I note that some Jewish organizations might disagree
>> > with
>> >     me on this point, but using the term "Jewish Holocaust" denotes a
>> >     special significance to the Jewish deaths which, I believe, is
>> >     something many revisionists are opposed to.  I find it interesting
>> > that
>> >     you support the idea that there is something special about the
>> > Jewish
>> >     victims over the other victims.  This seems to set you apart from
>> > other
>> >     revisionists.
>> My reference is to the popular culture which, thanks to the media, the
>> education establishment - the establishment in general, in fact - regards
>> "the" holocaust as almost exclusively a Jewish monopoly.  You and I may
>> know of other suffering besides that of Jews but the ordinary man on the
>> street, who has only Hollywood and pulp novels to go by, does not.  The
>> ordinary man on the street would have no problem with the term "Jewish"
>> Holocaust.  It is the opinion moulders who prefer "the" Holocaust because
>> that of course makes it far more equal than all others.  Which is the
>> whole point.
>> 
>> > The molar conventional view of the Holocaust is adhered to every
>> >     Holocaust researcher in the world who holds a Ph.D. in History or
>> >     related social science field and who has had specific academic
>> > training
>> >     in Jewish history or 20th century European history.  Given that, the
>> >     molar conventional view of the Holocaust is so well established that
>> >     this null hypothesis is commonly referred to as "fact".  Most all
>> >     conventional historiography takes place among questions within this
>> >     conventional molar view.
>> 
>> What is this "molar?"  Some new academic jargon-speak?  Why not use
>> English?  Incidentally, the molar view of the world, in the judgment of
>> virtually all learned peoples at one time, not too many centuries ago,
>> accorded with Christian cosmology.  It no longer does.  Views change.
>> Even conventional historiography changes.  And it will continue changing.
>> Including the subject we're dealing with right here and now.  And I fear
>> it will not change to your liking.
>> 
>> (this is part 1 of 2 - continued in next post)
> 
>You handled that very well.  This is exactly what I too object to -- this 
>attempted use of intimidation to silence anyone who finds some credence 
>in the traditional revisionist view.  This has been, to me, very 
>suspicious, and eventually cause for my generally even giving more 
>credence to the revisionists view about history needing some proper 
>perspective and balance.  "If" some of them are prejudice... Well, then 
>they at their also extremely biased adversaries will have to keep dealing 
>with that by continuing to call each other names, I guess...

    Sorry, Buddy, but if you go back through my statements to which Mr.
    Hagen is replying I do believe you will be hard pressed to find any
    intimidation to silence him.

    I do believe you are overlaying some of your own agenda onto this
    discussion when there is nothing in the discussion to merit it.  But
    feel free to pull my own words from above to prove me wrong.  

    Take your time.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 19:34:38 PDT 1996
Article: 51087 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: 13 Jul 1996 08:17 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <13JUL199608171920@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4s7opu$nce@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4s7opu$nce@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	Within a couple a three months I expect to announce the availability of
>bullet proof web server that does not give a damn about content and in
>fact encourages inflamatory but US legal (meaning no kiddie porn but
>that is about it) content.
> 
>	Stay tuned for the Thomas Paine net, coming to an IPS near you.  
                                                          ^^^
    IPS == Idiotic Persistent Spammer

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 23:20:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51109 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA, there, gone, there again
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:21 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199623215409@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31ea5cf3.8114509@news.pacificnet.net> <31eb8984.140608@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31eb8984.140608@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	Seems every click in Nizkor brings you to a loony toon.

    You must be using their "mirror" site.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 17 23:20:26 PDT 1996
Article: 51110 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Substance and Hot Air
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199623271360@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31ebb96b.12403383@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31ebb96b.12403383@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	
>	Mr.(s) Edeiken and Mittleman along with Mr.Stein are big on
>alleging Moran has committed "lies", "anti-Semitisms", "evasions" and
>other naughty things. Moran simply asks, "Wherzat?". The trio then
>just reiterates the same thing.

    Why just last week you demanded that I defend my assertion that your
    posts were filled with, as you put it, "HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE."  So
    I began to repost your hate-filled essays with analysis.  I believe I
    reposted four of them.  At that point you got so angry at my tactics
    you asserted you weren't going to talk to me anymore.

    Now, you are asking "Wherzat?" again?  I think you have amnesia, zeyde.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 18 07:20:56 PDT 1996
Article: 51169 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:47 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <16JUL199623472489@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31dfcc8b.4344732@news.pacificnet.net> <31ebcd72.17530302@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31ebcd72.17530302@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	So far a lot of snarling and foaming at the mouth in response to
>this post, but nothing of substance to undo it.

    A nod's as good as a wink to a blind man, eh zeyde?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 18 07:20:57 PDT 1996
Article: 51170 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 16 Jul 1996 23:50 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
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References:  <4sh4la$5mr@news.enter.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4sh4la$5mr@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...
>>   joelr@winternet.com writes:
>>  In article <4sf88d$l1n@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com 
>(Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  
>>  >        Frivolous is up to court to decide based based upon the actual wording
>>  >of the of the filing.  Are you suggesting you know the filing?  
>>  
>>  Oh, come on.  You haven't filed anything.  Coward.  
>>  
>	Nor will he ever.

    That's too bad because, settlement from Giwer aside, it would make a
    wonderful fund raising hook.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 18 07:20:57 PDT 1996
Article: 51199 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!mhv.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.megalink.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why CODOH is not likely to sue ProtoSource
Date: 17 Jul 1996 06:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <17JUL199606290653@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4seiem$eau@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4sgo3e$mif@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sh7h6$dn@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4sif88$3s2@news.ios.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4sif88$3s2@news.ios.com>, Martin  Davis  writes...
> 
> Mr Green,will you stop stealing the money of the university of Standford
>anf the Tax payers.  Get your own server and pay for the net time 
>yourself. Parasites like you are nothing more then dead wood on 
>society.

    On the other hand, most Universities respect the concept of academic
    freedom.  They would be clearly supportive of Mr. Green's activities
    here.  I am very confident that "Standford" it.

    ------------
    >>rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>In article <4sgo3e$mif@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>DvdThomas  wrote:
>>
>>>(1)  There are no existant homicidal gassing chambers, there are only
>>>reconstructions of alleged facilities based on oral testimonies and
>>>descriptions, and ruins that are alleged to have been same, save they seem
>>>most inadequate for the purpose.
>>
>>Welcome out of the denier closet Mr. Hunt.  What exactly makes these
>>chambers inadequate for the purpose?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Rich Green
>>-- 
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>>	"Remember the days of yore,
>>	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>>		-Deuteronomy 32:7
> 
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 18 09:51:06 PDT 1996
Article: 78220 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <15JUL199623061897@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Control: cancel <15JUL199623061897@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: 16 Jul 1996 00:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 4
Distribution: world
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 18 23:20:56 PDT 1996
Article: 51304 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.imagine.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It was amazing
Date: 17 Jul 1996 06:06 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <17JUL199606061222@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rvh9s$qef@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4s4drj$8c@news1.io.org> <4s52ad$qpu@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <31E6AEAA.59E9@gryn.org> <4si587$b6a@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4si587$b6a@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 16 Jul 1996 06:47 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
>Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4sfk1j$4gs@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>> 
>>>	And no guarantee I will do it, just that it looks like a source of
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>income for a modest initial investment.  And, yes, my numbers are firm.
> 
>>    Ha!  Giwer's not going to start such a business.  It's just more
>>    trolling.  And if he did, at $500 a pop he'd get nary a customer.  And
>>    when he brought his prices down to actually attract customers, he will
>>    also attract every enemy he's made over the years on bbs's.  No way his
>>    upstream link would put up with the kind of shenanigans that would be
>>    going on with his site.
> 
>>    Not a threat (I have no knowledge of how to do such things - I'm just a
>>    school kid), just a prediction.  Call it psychic.
> 
>	Quite to the contrary, $40 per month for 10 Megs payable up front for
>each user.  I risk the big money on the gamble of future earnings.  
> 
>	When do I expect your check?  
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    When you actually have a business, for starters...  

    Sheesh, its just another troll.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 20 09:15:11 PDT 1996
Article: 51593 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.graphics.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!ccnet.com!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lawsuit threats
Date: 17 Jul 1996 06:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <17JUL199606232957@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4sieaa$d01@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4sieaa$d01@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>	Where was the outrage when "Gord McFee" was the first to initiate that
>threat?  Where was the ridicule?  Where were the responses that are
>nonsense in either direction?
> 
>	No where of course.  

    One of several differences was that he actually appeared to have
    grounds for a suit.

    But as you will recall (or see if you chack DejaNews), I posted an
    article which said to the effect, "Gord, either sue him or shut up
    already."  Which is roughly what Mike Stein is saying to you.

    But the fact that we all think you look real stupid about this and
    that you are full of hot air just can't be helped.  It' the truth.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 21 21:09:15 PDT 1996
Article: 51976 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!world1.bawave.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: 21 Jul 1996 14:05 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21JUL199614050695@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31f27f60.11773942@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31f27f60.11773942@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

    Yes, behold the lie.  The zeyde once again reposts a diatribe which has
    been shown to be filled with lies and mistakes each time he has posted
    it.  The reader is instructed to take a look at previous postings of
    "Behold the Lie" to see the discussions which ensued, or to visit the
    Moran.Tom section of Nizkor for a full listing of those discussions.

>quatchen

    Whatever that means.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 21 21:35:19 PDT 1996
Article: 51978 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: 21 Jul 1996 11:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 92
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21JUL199611591271@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31eafe62.18662855@news.pacificnet.net> <15JUL199623572421@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31eb96da.3554086@news.pacificnet.net> <31f251ce.108367@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    Face it, zeyde.  You ran out of argument and are just thrashing more
    meaningless statements...

In article <31f251ce.108367@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31f0d279.1781602@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>    No I can't.  I don't have any access to DejaNews from my hotel room
>>>>    here in Georgia.  If this is still an issue when I get home I will take
>>>>    a look on DejaNews.
>>> 
>>>	Mr.Mittleman is in his hotel room. He can monitor and post on
>>>Newsgroups, but he can't check Deja News. "when I get home I will".
>>
>>    Yes, that was exactly the situation.  Do you doubt, in some way, that I
>>    was telling the truth?  If so, please tell us more?  If not, then drop
>>    the innuendo.
> 
>>    I am home now.  I looked on DejaNews.  It took me about three minutes
>>    to find it.  The message ID for the article I have been referring to
>>    is:  <4sb1c6$kun@news.enter.net>.  There is your cite zeyde.  Now go
>>    find it for yourself.    
> 
>	Seems Mr.Mittleman was here on the 16th to report he had found
>Mr.Edeiken's posted e-mail on Deja News and then sudddenly he is in
>Atlantas. Evidently it sank and Mr.Mittleman was back "home now" on
>the morning of the 21st.

    Yes, I left for Georgia on the morning of the 17th, and returned on the
    morning of the 20th.  Would you like me to scan my government expense
    statement including ailine receipts onto Nizkor, or something?  What's
    your beef, zeyde?  And I don't think I mentioned "Atlantas" by any
    spelling -  I think I only mentioned Georgia, though I did use the
    Atlanta airport.

    And, no, I did not report on the 16th that I found Mr. Edeiken's email
    on DejaNews.  [1] I have never seen Mr. Edeiken's email to you and have
    never posted otherwise.  [2] I never went and looked at DejaNews to
    pursue this topic until July 20.  [3] I never made a post to a.r which
    would indicate otherwise.  Zeyde, something is wrong with your antennae
    as you are making significant factual mistakes here.

>	Evidently Mr.Mittleman went to Atlantas to be on hand for the
>ceremonial grand opening of the latest Holocaust Ministry of
>Intolerable Love, where the rail road tracks are mounted on the
>ceiling to which even the architect said it "Didn't make sense".

    Huh?  You didn't explain this loony statement the first time you made
    it, and now you go repeat it.  Are you insinuating I did something?  If
    so, please be so kind as to translate from loony-talk to English so the
    rest of us know what you are insinuating.

>	Mr.Mittleman is kind of 'confusing'. He had already said he had
>found Mr.Edeiken's posted e-mail in Deja News on the 15th and here he
>is saying he has just found it on the 21st.

    Confusion is in the mind of the receiver.  I never said I found Mr.
    Edeiken's e-mail on DejaNews (I ask that you produce a cite if you
    argue otherwise - you will note that I am always so good as to provide
    cites for you).

>>    And, it turns out I have been in error in using the word "retraction."   
>>    Yale actually said, "... I wrote L'il Tommy an e-mail withdrawing my   
>>    offer until such time as he was in my proximity so that a proper   
>>    response to his "fun" could be made." 
> 
>	Poor Mr.Mittleman, first he puts his good ethnobuddy on the spot
>by saying his good buddy posted a "retraction" to his claim he lost
>16,000 relatives in the Holocaust, and now here he is goading his good
>buddy into combat with Moran.

    I don't believe I am goading Mr. Edeiken into anything here.  Yale,
    please don't take the above paragraph as a goad - if you see one that I
    don't see.

    Also, zeyde, note that when I make a mistake I note my error.  Haven't
    seen you do much of that even when your mistakes are handed to you on a
    silver platter (cites available if requested.)

>	Poor Mr.Mittleman and Mr.Edeiken. They are having a tag team
>match against Moran and they both end up in the ring, bouncing off the
>ropes and meeting head to head in the center - thwonk.

    Poor zeyde, doesn't know when to call it a day.

    So, zeyde, what does your Jewish family think of your HATE HATE HATE
    apporach to anti-semitism?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 21 22:22:23 PDT 1996
Article: 51989 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!inXS.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hello fellow truthseekers!
Date: 21 Jul 1996 14:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 83
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21JUL199614152855@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <199607191638.MAA00945@access5.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , Marty Kelley  writes...
>A small request, Iz (since you're using a pseudonym anyway, mind if I
>call you that?): for the sake of continuity in the conversation, it
>would be useful if you would include the parts of the text to which you
>are replying.  Snip stuff that you're not discussing, of course.
> 
>On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, iznogod wrote:
> 
>> Well Marty, I mean by revisionists those historians whether degree 
>> holding or not who are truthseekers. Whether they deny the holocaust or 
>> the true reasons for the Anglo-Boer War they want to know what really 
>> happened. 
> 
>You seem to be implying that historians in general (both academics and
>amateurs with an interest in historical study) are not interested in "what
>really happened."  Please clarify your comment: specifically, how do you
>explain the fact that vitually ALL academic historians who study WWII and
>German history (including historians IN Germany) universally accept the
>historical record of the Holocaust?  

    This is a point, Marty, which has been raised here repeatedly and I
    don't recall seeing much of any response to this.  I would be
    interested in hearing what David Thomas has to say to this point as
    well.

>> One therefore does not need a special degree to become a 
>> historian. 
> 
>While I would agree that amateurs can and do produce valid works on
>history, I would also insist that to do history *properly*, one has to
>employ valid historiographic methods--that is, any historian, whether a
>PhD in History or a part-time dabbler in research, has to employ valid,
>logical methods.  I would also argue that one is most likely to become
>expert in historiographic methodology when in a concentrated degree
>program in history.  A degree doesn't guarantee truth--Pons and Fleischman
>rather missed the mark on cold fusion!--but it is a kind of driver's
>license for working in the field.  Agreed so far?

    I am not sure "driver's license" is a good analogy, but I agree with
    your general point.  However, I point out that Mike Stein and Jamie
    McCarthy have done excellent work published in alt.revisionism and
    neither of them has a degree in a field related to history.

    I also point out for the benefit of Mr. Nogood that the post that Tom
    Moran recycles called "Behold the truth" contains some core rhetoric
    that has previously been shown to be misleading to the point of being
    untruthful (Moran takes a revisionist question raised and answered on
    the Simon Wiesenthal Center site and includes only the question citing
    it to show that the Wiesenthal Center is changing its tune).  As Mr.
    Nogood is looking for truthseekers, I wonder if he would care to
    comment on this behavior on the part of Mr. Moran.  Is this an example
    of truthseeking, or is this an example of prevarification in order to
    advance a doctrine?

>> One can be a researcher and collector of data and consequently 
>> give a detailed analysis of the situation or event and a susequent 
>> interpretation.
> 
>Indeed--and this is precisely what is lacking in attempts to deny the
>historicity of the Holocaust: detailed analysis and interpretation that
>convincingly puts forth an alternative hypothesis to the generally-
>accepted history.  Holocaust denial depends on simply dismissing out of
>hand the considerable historical evidence that exists to confirm the
>reality of the Holocaust.

    Agreed.  And historical method make use of accumulation of data, but
    the revisionists who have posted here have tended to view data in
    isolation.  There was a year or two ago a lengthy discussion with Greg
    Raven on this point.  Mr. Raven refused to consider the accumulation of
    data.

>I would like to ask you once again: What led you to believe the
>conventional history of the Holocaust to be incorrect?

    Yes, I would be interested in this also.  And as Mr. Stein has stated -
    and Mr. Kelley has acted on - I am willing to engage in serious
    discussion about the Holocaust if Mr. Nogood is also willing to do so. 
    I was very disappointed that Mr. Hagen came for a week, shot his wad,
    and disappeared.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 22 02:16:00 PDT 1996
Article: 52010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: McVay, never a Marine, unless a queen marine
Date: 21 Jul 1996 13:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21JUL199613595266@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net> <4sklen$49e@hermes.oanet.com> <31ef37f4.2891746@nntp.ix.netcom.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:36759 alt.politics.nationalism.white:25870 alt.revisionism:52010 alt.skinheads:32460

In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...

    The loon said:
>> >>>        Mr. McVay, my terms are very simple.  
>> >>>        EVERY mention of me disappears from NIZKOR without expection in any
>> >>>manner or form, period, no exceptions.  Not even oblique references or
>> >>>secondary quotations.  EVERYTHING goes as though it never existed.  
>> >>>        You publically post that you will take action and that you do take
>> >>>action against anyone who contacts any member of my family or me in any
>> >>>derogatory manner save via this newsgroup.  
>> >>>        That you do not play lawyer and find a way to circumvent
>these terms.
>> >>>        Is that clear enough?
    --------------------

>You know, Danny, the irony of this is all so hysterical.
>If Mr. Giwer doesn't want himself mentioned on Nizkor, there's such a
>simple solution.
>Stop posting.
>Who is this Matt Giwer that he can make demands like this anyway?
>I always thought (foolish me) that if you say something in public, I have
>a right to archive it.
>If you don't want it archived, don't say it.
>Such a simple solution for someone with such a monumental IQ.

    Oh, the trolling loon knows full well how crazy his demands are.  He
    thinks that somehow he is scaring people.  He didn't mind his posts
    archived until people began using his posts against him.  And of
    course, even if Nizkor didn't archive his posts, it would all be
    available on DejaNews.

    It is tough for loons and liars when all their words are archived. 
    Have some pity for him, at least.  I do.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 22 13:03:50 PDT 1996
Article: 52207 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The threatened lawsuit
Date: 22 Jul 1996 10:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 78
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <22JUL199610241222@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4svikf$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4svikf$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

>And non-paranoid reading what I posted knows that I have never threatened 
>a lawsuit and there have been many posts in that regard.  

>All of the message traffic about the lawsuit had no basis in anything I 
>said, save for the paranoid. 

/begin cite
    Subject:      class action lawsuit
    From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
    Date:         1996/07/13
    Message-Id:   <4s7u12$31t@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
    Organization: images incarnate
    X-Netcom-Date: Sat Jul 13  5:33:06 AM CDT 1996
    Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

    Is there anyone here interested in a class action lawsuit against McVay
    and Nizkor?

    I will be collecting these and forwarding them to an attorney who may
    be or may not be interested in the case depending upon the responses
    and the documentation supporting those responses.

    Please respond email.  
/end cite

/begin cite
    Subject:      lawsuit threats
    From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
    Date:         1996/07/17
    Message-Id:   <4sieaa$d01@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
    Organization: images incarnate
    X-Netcom-Date: Wed Jul 17  5:12:26 AM CDT 1996
    Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

    Where was the outrage when "Gord McFee" was the first to initiate that
    threat?  Where was the ridicule?  Where were the responses that are
    nonsense in either direction?

    No where of course.  
/end cite

/begin cite
    Subject:      in the manner of suiing
    From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
    Date:         1996/07/15
    Message-Id:   <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
    Organization: images incarnate
    X-Netcom-Date: Mon Jul 15  1:25:22 AM PDT 1996
    Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

    Also of interest is that there are six or seven contributors listed on
    the Nizkor site.  Two of them are "co-webmasters" but certainly it is
    possible they are contributing defamatory material making the RICO
    conspiracy even wider and more people to be named.

    They should all be named.  

    The joint and several liability under RICO for treble damages should be
    of interest to most any "contributor."  Of course if they can prove
    they did not contribute to the defamation ...

    But then, they were only following orders.  

    But then, the only reason I am leaving Nizkor on line is to accumulate
    evidence.  
/end cite

    Other than these you mean?

    [note to other readers that in each of these cases the subject line of
    Giwer's in initialized with the cited post.  In all three cases the
    subject line underlines his intent.]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 22 13:03:50 PDT 1996
Article: 52235 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: It is over
Date: 22 Jul 1996 10:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 50
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <22JUL199610091555@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4svhci$68g@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52235 alt.usenet.kooks:27297

    Giwer titles this: "It is over."  A fitting title as this post is clear
    indication that Giwer is finally off the deep end and is realizing that
    it is Niagara Falls.  Alt.usenet.kooks added though I don't know if it
    is possible to fully appreciate the absurdity of this post without
    having first read the several months of spams and trolls which led to
    it.  This is the most absurd post I have ever read on usenet.  And I
    have debated the paranormal loons over on sci.skeptic!

    As a bit of background to a.u.k readers, this post follows several days
    of ridicule Giwer just received for threatening libel and racketeering
    suits against posters to alt.revisionism.

In article <4svhci$68g@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>The gassing is now in the record of ancient history.  It has been completely
>discredited.  It is no longer of interest to any civilized discussion of what
>happened during WW II.  

    "It has been completely discredited," the troll says.  Unfortunately
    someone forgot to tell the unanimity of Holocaust historians who have
    not discredited the gassing.

>There is no longer any reason to even mention a holocaust as there was none of Jews
>that is of interest.  

    Except for the Nazi Holocaust which every historian in the world who
    has studied it says killed about 10 to 12 million people, 6 million or
    so of them Jews.  Except for that Holocaust, sure, anything you say.

>Whatever it was, its time has come and gone.  It has no further interest in civilized
>discussion.  

    Sure, anything this unemployed, mentally handicapped, demonstrated
    liar, egocentric, purported alchoholic, curmudgeon of a troll asserts
    in ignorance and/or defiance of all the historiography undertaken by a
    world of professional historians says.  Sure thing.  

>	Only the holohuggers will attempt to continue this nonsense.  

    Them and all of the historians and most all of the sane people in the
    world.

>	And the holohuggers are all very stupid.  

    That's it, matty.  Pump yourself up by putting everyone else down. 
    Very convincing.  You sure put all of us in our places.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 22 18:36:01 PDT 1996
Article: 52305 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: 22 Jul 1996 16:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 62
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <22JUL199616031475@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31f3cfd4.19888507@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31f3cfd4.19888507@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	Quite often the topic of Jewish population before the war pops up
>on alt.revisionism. It is important to the Holocaust story to show
>there were enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6 million.
>Most of the time, those in favor of the story respond to challenges by
>citing German estimates on the population of Jews in Europe.
>Something like, 'WHAT? What are you talking about? Look, even the
>Germans estimated ...'.
> 
>	As it turns out these estimates are deeply suspect.

    No they aren't Moran's logic is deeply suspect.  To wit:

>	"In the final solution conference of January 20, 1942, the Reich
>Main Security Office offered the following population statistics for
>these countries: Findland 2,300; ... Netherlands, 165,000; ...
>Romania, 342,000; ... Hungary, 742,000; ... France (occupied) 165,000;
>.... France (unoccupied), 700,000; The total is 2,475,100. But the sum
>was inflated, principally because of the gross over-estimate for
>unoccupied France, by about 600,000 people."
>                                                       *Raul Hilberg

>	Lets summarize: The one number was 700,000 and the correction is
>100,000. This figure of the number of Jews in France is put at 70,000
>in recent referrences.

    Moran does not explain why the population of France was over-estimated. 
    He does not know why the population of France was over-estimated (do you
    zeyde?)

>	The same list has 700,000 Jews living in Hungary before the war.
>Other figures put it at 800,000 and 900,000. Since the Jewish
>population of France was ten times what it is alleged to be now, we
>have to consider the same ratio applies to the Hungarian 700,000,

    Tommy, if you don't know why the population of France was
    overestimated, how can you apply the ratio of the error to another
    country?  Do you know why the population estimates in Hungary varied?
    Do you have any sense at all the methods used to estimate populations
    in Europe.

    The reader will note that Tommy will either not respond to this post of
    mine or will respond in a way that will not answer any of these
    questions.

>which puts a big quink into the allegations that 200,000 to 450,000
>were gassed at Auschwitz.

    There is no air in Tommy's premises, therefore his conclusions mean
    nothing.  And Tommy, the estimates for the number gassed at Auschwitz
    is closer to one million.

>	Well so much for citing German estimates as proof there were
>enough Jews in Europe to validify the numerical part of the story.

    So much for the little zeyde's logic.  Tommy what does your Jewish
    family think of your anti-semitism?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 07:04:21 PDT 1996
Article: 52446 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Date: 23 Jul 1996 06:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199606100750@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31f3cfc6.19874171@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31f3cfc6.19874171@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
>older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone to newer
>accounts that are currently written in stone.

    Cute term, zeyde.  But your HATE HATE HATE agenda misses a very basic
    point here: neither the older historiography of the Holocaust nor the
    current historiography is written in stone.  It is constantly being
    reevaluated and improved.  That is the way history is done - for both
    the Holocaust and every other historical event.

    But you have fun putting forward your HATE HATE HATE menifesto, it
    seems that is all you live for.  And its too bad too with such nice
    Jewish grandchildren to play with.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 07:04:22 PDT 1996
Article: 52452 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST OF MIND
Date: 23 Jul 1996 06:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 156
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199606042920@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31f3cff1.19916793@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
Summary: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net wrote:

"Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
'Tom Moran's manifesto'. It would be interesting in seeing how
Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion."

    Well, article <31f3cff1.19916793@news.pacificnet.net> is my fifth
    example of a Tom Moran post supporting my conclusion.  I assert that
    this article is evidence of Tommy's HATE HATE HATE manifesto.

    tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>	Entered here you will find a number of ravings that can be taken
>as racist exaggerations. We can assume these examples are only a small
>fraction of the ethnocentric, blurtatious material that the Jewish
>community gets involved with. This community makes up less than 2% of
>the American population and yet are responsible for about 100% of the
>racist ads, columns and letters that appear in our papers. You may
>notice under example XVIII "What Being Jewish Means to Me" is the 15th
>of those presented in the N.Y.Times. Over the last 15 years hundreds
>of full, half and quarter page ads have been placed in just two
>newspapers, the N.Y. and L.A. Times by Jews giving themselves rave
>reviews. They seem not able to control themselves, even including
>racist ego statements in Holocaust promotional books. 

    Tommy, do you have any evidence to support a figure anywhere close to
    100% of the racists ads, columns and letters that appear in our papers
    are from Jews?  If not, why is this statement not HATE HATE HATE?  Why
    are the Jewish organization posts racist, while Brad Smith's
    advertisements are not?  Why are the IRA, Arab-American, Italian
    American, etc. advertisements not?

    What is an example of a "racist ego statement" in [a] Holocaust
    promotional book"?  If you can't present some, why is your post not
    HATE HATE HATE?

>        Since the post covers a number of examples, I would recommend
>reading it a piece at a time.
> 
>                                                       Tom Moran
>                           ==============
> 
> 
>I.           - "South West Jewish Archives" -
> (Webcrawler > Jews > Southwestern Jewish Archives > Crypto-Jews)

    This is not a newspaper, so what has it to do with your thesis? 
    Haven't you just included this because you are blind with HATE HATE
    HATE?

>	"The Bloom Southwest Jewish Archives has amassed an enormous
>amount of information ..." to show that the Catholics were stupid
>people and that Jews were the only ones who could read and write in
>pioneer days.

    Why have you taken a quote from what they did say and then add on in
    your own words "to whow that the Cahtolics were stupid people" and
    represent this as the BSJA mission?  What did they say which you
    translate as Catholics are stupid?  Since this is your translation and
    not theirs, aren't you the one being racist here?  Why is this not HATE
    HATE HATE on your part?

>	The Spanish Catholics feared the Jews because they had "special
>expertise in various fields".

    Do they say "fear" or is that your own word?  And what about this is
    racist on the part of the BSJA?

>	Offering up the best of their "enormous" archives, we might
>assume, the Blooms cite a few examples to support their apparent
>motive of portraying Jews as superior, the first being a "'Mrs.O'" who
>had the feeling she was Jewish, because she was raised in a Hispanic
>community and her family was the only '"family who were intellectuals,
>so therefore we must have been Jewish"'. "Pressed" further she said
>'"Well we were the only ones who had books in our house therefore we
>must have been Jewish"'.

    Why do you interpret being intellectual and having books as being
    superior?  Why is this not racist on your part?  Isn't this more HATE
    HATE HATE?

>	Another example given by the Blooms to lead us to how extensive
>Jewish presence was in the Old West was from "a young man" who
>remembered his grandfather carving menorahs.

    So?  Why is this racist on the part of BSJA?

>	In another display of ethnocentricism and exemplifying the
>genetic connection of Judaism, the Blooms quote a Denver dentist who
>joined a Jewish congregation, saying he did not have to convert, "even
>though his father was a church going Catholic, his mother did not want
>him to go to church and told him repeatedly that she was Jewish and
>therefore he was too". "My mother was the clever one in the family"
>and their "...Catholic friends sneared at us". 

    So?  What is your point here?   They way you have pasted together two
    quotes reads to me as racist on your part.  Why is this not HATE HATE
    HATE?

>	Another example from the "enormous" archives was a translater
>from the Univ. of Ariz. who had a amulet with Hebrew text and who's
>mother never cooked pork.

    So?

    And this particular analysis of Tommy's continues...

    [rest of web site discussion deleted]

>                           =============
> 
> 
>II.               "ISRAEL IS OUR ONLY PRIORITY" 
>So goes the banner heading in a 1/4 page ad in the New York Times
>1/23/94, under a little prelude copy that cites " -January 27, 1994-
>is the New Year of the Trees."
>	"Founded in 1901, the Jewish National Fund has long been
>designated as the sole agency in charge of afforestation and land
>reclamation in Israel."
>	"JNF has planted over 200,000,000 trees throughout Israel. JNF
>also builds roads and parks; prepares land for housing, agriculture
>and industry ..."  the later being that area outside of the 8000 sq.
>miles of the whole of Israel we would have to eliminate when trying to
>figure out how many trees per sq. yard 200,000,000 trees would come
>out to.

    First, Tommy, why do you care about how many trees there are in Israel? 
    Please try to answer this question in a manner which will not show you
    to be racist and anti-semitic.  Please try to answer this without
    advancing your agenda of HATE HATE HATE.  I don't think such an answer
    is possible.

>	After a little more boasterous copy we are given a sketch of a
>rolling hill vista covered with trees. I wonder what a photograph
>would show?

    Isn't the use of adjectives on your part such as "boasterous" an
    example of your HATE HATE HATE agenda?

>	Whatever the real story, this ad was placed in an American
>newspaper for some reason. Evidentally to let us know how ecologically
>minded they are. 200,000,000 trees?

    Possibly to raise money to plant more trees.  Again, what do you care
    about tress in Israel?  Why are you sticking your nose in this if it
    isn't for HATE HATE HATE purposes?

                             ==================

    Rest of Tommy's articles deleted.  Tommy has much to answer for in
    just these first two.  Clearly he is putting forward a HATE HATE HATE
    agenda as that is his manifesto.  It comes through with most every post
    he makes. 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 07:04:23 PDT 1996
Article: 52455 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More goofy Nizkor stuff
Date: 23 Jul 1996 06:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199606364461@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31f0cdf8.629056@news.pacificnet.net> <31f3cdf3.19406979@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
Summary: humor
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	                    Definitions

                     Random House Dictionary

"liar": 1. one who tells lies. (See: Moran, Tom.)

"lie": 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive;
     2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression;
	3. the charge or accusation of lying;

"coward": 1. a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty,
pain etc.
	2. lacking courage, timid: (See: Moran, Tom.)

"Semite": 1. a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples
originating in SW Asia, among whom are the Hebrews and Arabs;
	2. a Jew;
	3. a member of any of the peoples supposedly descended from Shem.

"anti": n. 1. a person opposed to a particular practice, policy,
action etc.

"anti-": 1. a prefix from Greek meaning "against", "opposite of",
freely combining with elements of any origin and used with the
following particular meanings: "opposed", in "opposition to".

"anti-Semite": 1. a person who is hostile to Jews. (See: Moran, Tom.)

"hostile": 1. opposed in feeling, action, or character; antagonistic;
- hostile criticism (italicized example)

"Moran, Tom": an anti-semitic liar and coward.


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 07:04:24 PDT 1996
Article: 52456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: 23 Jul 1996 06:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199606230208@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net> <4sklen$49e@hermes.oanet.com> <31ef37f4.2891746@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <31F3F895.DFB@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:36894 alt.politics.nationalism.white:25980 alt.revisionism:52456 alt.skinheads:32587

In article <31F3F895.DFB@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes...
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>> How about the sound of a hypocrite talking to himself?
> 
>Is that a koan?

    I knew a rabbi named Zen Cohen.  He used to say the strangest things...


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
       [Sorry, I've been hanging out with Marty too much lately]  :/



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 09:39:34 PDT 1996
Article: 52474 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: 23 Jul 1996 06:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199606150755@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31F3D670.14B5@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  writes...
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>>         Excuse me but I was talking about the real Passover, not the post 1492 Passover fair.
>> When you learn something about it, get back to me.
> 
>Try a little learning yourself, Matt. The basics of a Passover meal
>haven't changed in almost 3000 years.

    Not the ceremony, but the meal itself has evolved and assimilated local
    epicurian culture.  That is why ashkenazi and sephardic seder meals are
    so different.

    But this all begs the question of why Mattypoo cares about any of this
    or what any of this has to do with the Holocaust.  He is just trolling
    again, of course.

    Alec, you know better than anyone, Matt is a bottom feeder.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 09:39:35 PDT 1996
Article: 52475 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.missouri.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: 23 Jul 1996 06:50 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199606502935@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4t1qd7$lfq@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 22 Jul 1996 10:56:22 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
> 
>>    Perhaps I should have posted your parents' full address and phone
>>number.  After all, it too is publicly available if you know the right web
>>site.  Would it bother you if I did that?  After all, it would not be my
>>fault since I am only making available what others have already made
>>available.
> 
>>    For any purpose whatsoever.
> 
>	That would not be a pleasant thing for you to do.  In fact were anything to
>happen to them because of that, it might in fact be the last thing you ever
>do.  I hope that is clear.  

    It sounds to me like a death threat.  The federal authorities
    considering extortion charges against you, Matty, probably won't
    consider death threats highly in your favor.

>	Your fate will be dependent upon the consequences of your actions.  

    Uh huh.  Tell it to the jury.

>	I have in mind revealing holohuggers for what they are to the media and you in
>particular.  That should set you terrorists back a bit.  

    Please do.  I'd be amused.

>	What should be a civilized discussion in a single newsgroup becomes the basis
>for exactly the kind of terrorism holohuggers claim they risk but never
>receive.  

    Right.  Didn't this all begin when you posted Ken McVay's address?

>	Your professed martyrdom is amusing but not believed in the least.  

    Can you say "projection"?

    [tax law fantasies deleted]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 11:29:07 PDT 1996
Article: 52503 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ethnic groups
Date: 23 Jul 1996 07:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199607011287@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4t1upt$bao@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 22 Jul 1996 09:44 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
>>In article <4svgko$ma9@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>> 
>>>	Prior to 1960 anyone claiming there was a segregation by other than national origin
>>>would have been round of town on a rail if possible as they were all Americans.  And
>>>national origin meant shit save in cities like New York where it is still the most
>>>obnoxious city in the country.  
> 
>>    Earl Warren wrote a little essay (co-signed by eight of his friends) in
>>    December of 1953 which, in the eyes of any sane person, would
>>    demonstrate you are wrong.
> 
>>    Shoot, even Plessy v. Ferguson shows debate on the subject and
>>    demonstrates you are wrong.
> 
>	Want to post it, idiot?

    No, I have no desire to spam this newsgroup with Supreme Court
    decisions.  They are available to anyone who wants to read them with
    minimal search.

>	Or will you be happy with the pretension that is supports your position?  

    The Supreme Court in '53 said there was segregation.  Their word became
    law of the land.  This is in contrast to your statement above.  I will
    rest with that "pretension".  Thank you.
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 11:29:08 PDT 1996
Article: 52504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The threatened lawsuit
Date: 23 Jul 1996 07:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199607043498@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4t1vct$dd7@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 22 Jul 1996 10:24 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
> 
>>In article <4svikf$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>>>And non-paranoid reading what I posted knows that I have never threatened 
>>>a lawsuit and there have been many posts in that regard.  
> 
>>>All of the message traffic about the lawsuit had no basis in anything I 
>>>said, save for the paranoid. 
> 
    [three citations deleted save their message-ids]

>>    Message-Id:   <4s7u12$31t@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
>>    Message-Id:   <4sieaa$d01@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
>>    Message-Id:   <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>

>>    Other than these you mean?
> 
>>    [note to other readers that in each of these cases the subject line of
>>    Giwer's in initialized with the cited post.  In all three cases the
>>    subject line underlines his intent.]
> 
>	That is correct, stupid shit.
> 
>	Not one, not ONE threat to file a lawsuit.

    Whoa, big guy.  Got us there!  Yes, there were THREE threats to file a
    lawsuit.

>	You holohuggers are very stupid, not to mention gullible.  

    Uh huh.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 11:29:08 PDT 1996
Article: 52514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:12 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
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In article <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>McFlea, McFly, it does not matter.
>This fool clams to be in his 50s and has the intellecutal age of a teenager.
>Beyond that, he is a greate defend of what he is incapable of understandiug.  
>After all, he is a mongoloid idiot behind a keyboard.  

    Hmmm.  A well reasoned, well cited argument.  Maybe there is something
    to this Giwer guy afterall?

    Not.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 11:29:09 PDT 1996
Article: 52516 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lamarck.sura.net!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Keeping Neighborhoods Jewish (ADV)
Date: 23 Jul 1996 09:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199609232764@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:25989 alt.revisionism:52516 alt.politics.white-power:36905

In article , bulkrate  writes...

> 
>I think you have struck the core as to why many people are angry at
>jews now. 

    Now, there's a premise that could use some data to support it.

    >If they are smart enough to work in a white-house
>administration (@ 2000% representation of US pop.), then they should
>have the "Savvy" to know of the Clinton background, and how both
>working for him and supporting him as voters undermines the moral
>high ground jews must rely on to sustain the victimization cult
>re:holocaust. They should have left Clinton administering to the
>arky mafia, the Craig Livingstones, the Mena cokeheads, and lent
>their talents to an unquestionably moral, though imperfect man such
>as Bob Dole.  Check out: 

    [bunch of websites deleted]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 13:15:09 PDT 1996
Article: 52533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
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    The spiraling downfall of Matt Giwer continues.  I crosspost this
    complete post over to alt.usenet.kooks with no additional comment. 
    None is needed.

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
>>[To Hilary Ostrov]
> 
>># Dear Fatbroad,
> 
>>Remember folks, he says his IQ is 163. Moreover, I recall
>>that he claims to have taken a few IQ tests and that 163
>>was his lowest score.
> 
>Not one person ever found with radiation damage to the reproductive organs.  
> 
>What a piece of shit this holocaust is.  

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 13:15:10 PDT 1996
Article: 52538 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What was the basis for the stories about the holocaust?
Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
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In article <4t27p6$g5o@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

    [to Danny Keren]

>	You are truly stupid PhD type.  It is expected that you are. 
> 
>	You are not to be seriously considreed in any futher discussion of this
>subjest.  You are not bright enough to participate.  

    The Giwer-entity is still spiraling downward.  Any guesses as to when
    he will hit bottom?  Any guesses as to whether he will explode, or
    merely fizzle when he does?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 18:20:45 PDT 1996
Article: 52569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.politics
Subject: Re: Dunford on the Z List screw-up
Date: 23 Jul 1996 14:00 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199614001441@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1849 alt.revisionism:52569 can.politics:60246

In article <4t2j6d$2fog@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie Farber) writes...
>In today's Toronto Sun (July 23,1996), Gary Dunford writes:
> 
>"WHOOPS: You'd be excused for not knowing about The Z List---
>an electronic newsletter that stinks up the Internet,a daily helping
>of hate group spew for those who follow the topic. (The Z is for Zundel).
>But imagine the shock of those who subscribe to the e mailing when
>some novice moved a query to all hands the other day, testing what
>interest there might be in a chat room. Sent as a copy of an original, each
>e-flash was post-scripted with a complete list of every subscriber being
>mass-mailed! The howls you hear are from hate mongers who were
>cyber-discreet, but outed. Journalists and cops got a yock out of it.
>Always get a real geek, suckers." Toronto Sun, July, 23, 1996

    Just wnat to note this a second time - and somebody might want to pass
    this along to Gary Dunford:  Just because a name was on the zundellist
    does not mean that person is a hate-monger.  I recognized a few
    addresses of people I know who are not hate-mongers but are monitoring
    that list.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 18:20:46 PDT 1996
Article: 52585 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199608102748@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4t1vtk$s0s@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:00:46 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

    [Moran's post, already shown to be flawed, is deleted]

>What we have in the US is this highly inflated view of the number of Jews in
>the world based upon media representation.   But again, if The Bell Curve has
>any validity, then nearly half the US media staff and such is Jewish.  This is
>based upon 1/3 of NYC being Jewish.  

    This assumption is incorrect (why would we expect you to begin getting
    facts correct after all this time?)  As I pointed out yesterday, the
    1994 World Almanac shows the NYC MSA to be about 19,000,000 people and
    that there are about 7,000,000 Jews in all of North America.  Given
    large Jewish populations in many American and Canadian Cities (for
    example, there is the cabal running Hollywood, is there not?)  :/
    it is impossible for there to be 6.3 million Jews in the NYC MSA.

    Or, do you have different statistics which bear out your assertion?

    I thought not.

>It has been quite amazing to read the posts of people dumb enough to contest
>this point.  

    Funny how we "dumb" people contest it with cited statistics and YOU (oh
    brilliant one) never use either statistics nor cites to support your
    anti-semitic, bald assertions. 

    -------

    And, as an aside, to your weasally statement about _The Bell Curve_: 
    we both know it has minimal validity, don't we?  That's the cheap out
    you left yourself with, isn't it?

    They cut you from the high school debate team didn't they?  But, oh,
    you'll show them... you'll get even some day... {cut to diabolical
    laugh}

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 18:20:47 PDT 1996
Article: 52617 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news.kth.se!nntp.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mattie Giwer can contradict himself *six* times before breakfast?
Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:30 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
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In article <4t29d6$roo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 22 Jul 1996 21:25:48 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
> 
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>	This time I said nothing about suing.  
>>	
>>	Then what was this crap about "further, unspecified penalties" in your
>>post about Nizkor?
> 
>	Anyone with half a brain and who has read the "plaform" of Nizkor would not
>have to ask that the first time.

    {weasel weasel backpedel backpedel}

    What a joke.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 20:23:39 PDT 1996
Article: 52569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.politics
Subject: Re: Dunford on the Z List screw-up
Date: 23 Jul 1996 14:00 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
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In article <4t2j6d$2fog@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie Farber) writes...
>In today's Toronto Sun (July 23,1996), Gary Dunford writes:
> 
>"WHOOPS: You'd be excused for not knowing about The Z List---
>an electronic newsletter that stinks up the Internet,a daily helping
>of hate group spew for those who follow the topic. (The Z is for Zundel).
>But imagine the shock of those who subscribe to the e mailing when
>some novice moved a query to all hands the other day, testing what
>interest there might be in a chat room. Sent as a copy of an original, each
>e-flash was post-scripted with a complete list of every subscriber being
>mass-mailed! The howls you hear are from hate mongers who were
>cyber-discreet, but outed. Journalists and cops got a yock out of it.
>Always get a real geek, suckers." Toronto Sun, July, 23, 1996

    Just wnat to note this a second time - and somebody might want to pass
    this along to Gary Dunford:  Just because a name was on the zundellist
    does not mean that person is a hate-monger.  I recognized a few
    addresses of people I know who are not hate-mongers but are monitoring
    that list.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 20:23:40 PDT 1996
Article: 52585 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 42
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In article <4t1vtk$s0s@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:00:46 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

    [Moran's post, already shown to be flawed, is deleted]

>What we have in the US is this highly inflated view of the number of Jews in
>the world based upon media representation.   But again, if The Bell Curve has
>any validity, then nearly half the US media staff and such is Jewish.  This is
>based upon 1/3 of NYC being Jewish.  

    This assumption is incorrect (why would we expect you to begin getting
    facts correct after all this time?)  As I pointed out yesterday, the
    1994 World Almanac shows the NYC MSA to be about 19,000,000 people and
    that there are about 7,000,000 Jews in all of North America.  Given
    large Jewish populations in many American and Canadian Cities (for
    example, there is the cabal running Hollywood, is there not?)  :/
    it is impossible for there to be 6.3 million Jews in the NYC MSA.

    Or, do you have different statistics which bear out your assertion?

    I thought not.

>It has been quite amazing to read the posts of people dumb enough to contest
>this point.  

    Funny how we "dumb" people contest it with cited statistics and YOU (oh
    brilliant one) never use either statistics nor cites to support your
    anti-semitic, bald assertions. 

    -------

    And, as an aside, to your weasally statement about _The Bell Curve_: 
    we both know it has minimal validity, don't we?  That's the cheap out
    you left yourself with, isn't it?

    They cut you from the high school debate team didn't they?  But, oh,
    you'll show them... you'll get even some day... {cut to diabolical
    laugh}

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 20:23:40 PDT 1996
Article: 52617 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news.kth.se!nntp.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mattie Giwer can contradict himself *six* times before breakfast?
Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:30 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <4t29d6$roo@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 22 Jul 1996 21:25:48 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
> 
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>	This time I said nothing about suing.  
>>	
>>	Then what was this crap about "further, unspecified penalties" in your
>>post about Nizkor?
> 
>	Anyone with half a brain and who has read the "plaform" of Nizkor would not
>have to ask that the first time.

    {weasel weasel backpedel backpedel}

    What a joke.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 23 21:56:00 PDT 1996
Article: 52671 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ideological stances:
Date: 23 Jul 1996 13:47 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 130
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199613475892@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31f4e057.2753060@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>
>>>  	Moran will give you straight foward material and the responses
>>>  will ... Well just follow along and you will see.
>>
>>	The stragiht-forward "information" that Moran presents is, rather, twisted 
>>misrepresentations embellished with bigotry and outright lies.  One organization that 
>>Moran has cited as a source states: "As Bill Moffett's successor, I cannot state too 
>>strongly the Huntington's abhorrence of statements like those of Mr. Moran's,  He has 
>>twisted and embellished the facts concerning the release of the Dead Sea Scroll to 
>>serve his bigotry and anti-Semitism."
>>
>>	--YFE
> 
>	The name of the "oragnization" Mr.Edeiken is speaking of is a
>Mr.Zeidberg. When he mentions the "Huntington's abhorrence" he is
>speaking for himself.
>	Even this he seemed to regret after a phone conversation with him
>in regard to Mr.Edeiken's posting his response to him. Mr.Zeidberg
>became a little more attentive when I ask him if he knew what kind of
>format his note would be posted on and if he knew the nature of the
>person who he was dealing with at the other end of his communication. 

    In response to this post, I have sent David Zeidberg the following
    letter:

David S. Zeidberg, Director 
Huntington Libraries

July 23, 1996

Dear Dr. Ziedberg,

I am writing to you in response to an alt.revisionism Usenet discussion
group posting made by a Mr. Tom Moran from the Los Angeles area.  Please
allow me to show you Mr. Moran's posting and then comment on it below.  Mr.
Moran is responding to remarks made by Yale Edeiken:

    From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
    Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
    Subject: Re: Ideological stances:
    Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:23:22 GMT
    Message-ID: <31f4e057.2753060@news.pacificnet.net>

    >The straight-forward "information" that Moran presents is, rather, twisted
    >misrepresentations embellished with bigotry and outright lies.  One
    organization that
    >Moran has cited as a source states: "As Bill Moffett's successor, I
    cannot state too
    >strongly the Huntington's abhorrence of statements like those of Mr.
    Moran's, he has
    >twisted and embellished the facts concerning the release of the Dead
    Sea Scroll to
    >serve his bigotry and anti-Semitism."
    >       --YFE

    The name of the "organization" Mr.Edeiken is speaking of is a
    Mr.Zeidberg. When he mentions the "Huntington's abhorrence" he is
    speaking for himself.

    Even this he seemed to regret after a phone conversation with him in
    regard to Mr.Edeiken's posting his response to him. Mr.Zeidberg became
    a little more attentive when I ask him if he knew what kind of format
    his note would be posted on and if he knew the nature of the person who
    he was dealing with at the other end of his communication. 
    [Tom Moran]

As you may know, alt.revisionism is a public discussion group on the
Internet set up in 1991 to focus the conversation of Holocaust deniers who
had previously been exercising their right to free speech in public
discussion groups such as soc.culture.jewish.  Alt.revisionism was created
to give these deniers, many of them neo-nazis or anti-Semites, their own
sandbox and discourage their interruption of discussions in other
locations.  While they still tend to spill out into other discussion
groups, the action has worked remarkably well.  

Over the years two interesting developments have occurred.  One, a cadre of
individuals has emerged within the confines of alt.revisionism who counter
the assertions made by these Holocaust deniers.  There are between one
dozen and two dozen individuals who are actively engaged in this activity
at this time.  I fall into this category, as does Yale Edeiken whose post
Mr. Moran was responding to above.  And two, the Nizkor organization has
emerged as an archive and resource for dealing with hate speech on the
Internet.  While the initial core of Nizkor's work dealt with countering
Holocaust denial, the work has spread to countering other hate agendas as
well.

That said, I am concerned by Mr. Moran's post above.  He represents to have
had a telephone conversation with you where he has dissuaded you from your
initial statement to Mr. Edeiken. Let me assure you that Mr. Edeiken is in
fact who and what he purports himself to be.  Mr. Edeiken  is a lawyer
practicing in the State of Pennsylvania and both an active participant to
alt.revisionism and strong contributor to the work Nizkor is doing.  Mr.
Edeiken also lost over 150 relatives to the Holocaust.  Mr. Moran, on the
other hand, has been a frequent poster to alt.revisionism putting forward
an anti-Semitic agenda including  a constant denial of the reality of the
Holocaust.  He has a history of twisting fact and fiction together to build
his arguments.  Your analysis that his actions were evidence of "bigotry
and anti-Semitism" was completely on track.

I trust you made the same judgments yourself from your conversations with
the two principals above.  However, if you wish to, you can verify my
analysis of the parties involved through Nizkor.  Further, as a complete
history of our alt.revisionism discourse is available at Nizkor and other
Internet archives, I would be happy to make available to you any background
material you might request.

I suspect that you have little interest yourself in being involved in our
debate and I make no request that you do so.  I simply wish to point out to
you that your initial conversation with Mr. Edeiken was very helpful and
that you should be careful should Mr. Moran attempt to dissuade you from
that help in any way.  I want to assure you that there was value to your
initial remarks to Mr. Edeiken and that those remarks have been handled in
a responsible manner.

If you wish to follow up this letter with any further conversation, you can
reach me at my office at (520) 621-xxxx.

Sincerely,



Daniel Mittleman, Ph.D. 
Research Fellow 
Center for the Management of Information 
The University of Arizona

cc: 	Yale Edeiken (by electronic mail)
    	alt.revisionsim (public posting)



From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 24 07:09:33 PDT 1996
Article: 52726 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Digs itself in deeper
Date: 23 Jul 1996 23:02 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
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In article <31F5448C.585A@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes...
>Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>> 
>> >   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>> 
>> >      Anyway, at this point, should even lightning strike Ken McVay, by his
>> >  own account Mr. Giwer will be having a serious talk with his local
>> >  gendarmes.  He has said some very, very silly things in public.
>> 
>>         Actually it's the FBI who will be talking to him in that case.  The US
>> attorney in Tampa takes a dim view of extortion.
> 
>Since this would be a cross-border excercise, might the RCMP become involved?
>I know they would be extremely amused at the comments Giwer has made about
>those of us above the 49th parallel.

    I was thinking today how amusing it will be when in the process of
    discovery Giwer's lawyer finds out what he has been saying about
    lawyers!  :>

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 24 07:09:33 PDT 1996
Article: 52730 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Keeping Neighborhoods Jewish (ADV)
Date: 23 Jul 1996 13:54 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199613541587@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <031307Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <31F461FE.1A04@ix.netcom.com>  
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52730 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1871 soc.culture.jewish:64167

In article , jesusdung  writes...
>my good man take a look at Communist history. It was a Jewish creation. 
>Kamenev, Svirdlov, Trotsky, Zinoviev, Lenin, Uritzky, and the rest where 
>all die-hard jews. 

    Probably too fine a point for a bigot, but while it might be legitimate
    to refer to some or all of these people as Jews (I don't recognize four
    of the names so I have no idea their religion), it probably would be
    wrong to label them as "die-hard" Jews.  Most of the Jews involved in
    the Communist movement in Russia were non-religious and were at odds
    with the religious Jewish community.

    >Jews (actually Khazars who have accepted Talmudicism)

    Ah yes, we all should be labeled by some of our eighth century ancestors... 

>make up only 5% of the Russian population, yet they were 95% of the 
>Communist members. The Jews (COmmunists) destroy the Russian religion, 
>its bid for  better DEMOCRATIC government, the nationalism of the Russian 
>volk (volya), the arts, music, and culture and rape the nation. And 
>that's what they literally did (mass gang rapes) when they invaded 
>Europe. Isn't it intersting how one of the most powerful Commies (jews) 
>in the ussr was Kazar Laganovich (what a name! Khazar!) who was HEAD OF 
>THE SOVIET FINANCE MINISTRY! A jew in control of money yet again! Just 
>like the high New York financiers (jews) who financed the BOlshevik 
>revolution.

    Yes, a fine detailed, sourced, historical analysis.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 24 07:09:34 PDT 1996
Article: 52733 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!worldlinx.com!freenet.durham.org!reptiles.org!gts!geac!herboid!whome!infoshare!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,tor.general
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on law and the internet
Date: 23 Jul 1996 13:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 11
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    [posted and emailed]

    Bernie, I am very interested in your thoughts on Ken McVay's post today
    where he took SWC to task for their approach to dealing with hate group
    web sites.

    Danny

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 24 18:18:57 PDT 1996
Article: 52935 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,misc.legal,ont.general,bc.general,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Wiesenthal Center (Canada) and the Ostrich Syndrome
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:14 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <24JUL199617144110@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4t4rs7$hp1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

    [To Tom Moran regarding Ken McVay]

>Again you let him off easy.
>McVay is clearly a hypocrite.  His works to avoid showing his hate which is
>stronger than any he pretends to fight.  
>He is a sadist looking for people to hurt.  He is into it very deeply.  You
>can read it in his every post.  
>It is because of people like him that the legends of the vampire, the wendigo,
>and the werewolf started.  
>He is the kind of person the human race abhors.
>May it rest in peace.  

    Wow, a classic case of projection.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 24 18:29:38 PDT 1996
Article: 37022 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Competition to Neo-Nazi Nizkor
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 169
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24JUL199617040667@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52936 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1903 alt.politics.white-power:37022

    Cute, but dumb post from an anonymous racist who knows nothing from
    which he speaks...

In article <034303Z24071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu writes:
> 
>>In article <4svikf$c0v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>
>>>And non-paranoid reading what I posted knows that I have never threatened 
>>>a lawsuit and there have been many posts in that regard.  
>>
>>>All of the message traffic about the lawsuit had no basis in anything I 
>>>said, save for the paranoid. 
>>
>>/begin cite
>>    Subject:      class action lawsuit
>>    From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>>    Date:         1996/07/13
>>    Message-Id:   <4s7u12$31t@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
>>    Organization: images incarnate
>>    X-Netcom-Date: Sat Jul 13  5:33:06 AM CDT 1996
>>    Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
>>
>>    Is there anyone here interested in a class action lawsuit against McVay
>>    and Nizkor?
>>
>>    I will be collecting these and forwarding them to an attorney who may
>>    be or may not be interested in the case depending upon the responses
>>    and the documentation supporting those responses.
>>
>>    Please respond email.  
>>/end cite
>>
>>/begin cite
>>    Subject:      lawsuit threats
>>    From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>>    Date:         1996/07/17
>>    Message-Id:   <4sieaa$d01@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
>>    Organization: images incarnate
>>    X-Netcom-Date: Wed Jul 17  5:12:26 AM CDT 1996
>>    Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
>>
>>    Where was the outrage when "Gord McFee" was the first to initiate that
>>    threat?  Where was the ridicule?  Where were the responses that are
>>    nonsense in either direction?
>>
>>    No where of course.  
>>/end cite
>>
>>/begin cite
>>    Subject:      in the manner of suiing
>>    From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>>    Date:         1996/07/15
>>    Message-Id:   <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
>>    Organization: images incarnate
>>    X-Netcom-Date: Mon Jul 15  1:25:22 AM PDT 1996
>>    Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
>>
>>    Also of interest is that there are six or seven contributors listed on
>>    the Nizkor site.  Two of them are "co-webmasters" but certainly it is
>>    possible they are contributing defamatory material making the RICO
>>    conspiracy even wider and more people to be named.
>>
>>    They should all be named.  
>>
>>    The joint and several liability under RICO for treble damages should be
>>    of interest to most any "contributor."  Of course if they can prove
>>    they did not contribute to the defamation ...
>>
>>    But then, they were only following orders.  
>>
>>    But then, the only reason I am leaving Nizkor on line is to accumulate
>>    evidence.  
>>/end cite
>>
>>    Other than these you mean?
>>
>>    [note to other readers that in each of these cases the subject line of
>>    Giwer's in initialized with the cited post.  In all three cases the
>>    subject line underlines his intent.]
>>
>>                         daniel david mittleman 
>>===========================================================================
>>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"
> 
>And what was the original context of these articals?  Was it sarcasm?

    No.

>This is what makes Nizkor such a lousy archiver, taking peoples posts
>out of context.  Nizkor does this because of the lousy performance by
>anti-racists in rebuttals to racists and opponents of the Holocaust.

    These articles were not pulled from Nizkor; they were pulled from
    DejaNews.

    These articles were pulled in full; no context is lacking.

    Matt Giwer *could* rebut my post to show that there is other context
    that is missing.  He has not responded to this post though he has
    responded to posts before it and after it.

    Therefore, there is no data to support your hateful assertion above. 
    Thank you for playing.  Strike one.

>This is why I'm interesting in starting a direct connection to the
>net to provide a voice to anti-racists denied by Nizkor's server.

    This sentence makes no sense (over and above your typographical
    errors.)  First, Nizkor is anti-racist.  You are probably referring to
    racists here.  Second, Nizkor is well known to provide greater access
    to its idealogical opponents than most any other web site on the
    internet.  Third, many racist and anti-racists web sites with direct
    connections to the internet already exist.  So, you are wrong in your
    assertions in just about every way possible.  Again, thank you for
    playing.  Strike two.

>Nizkor simply leaves the racist and anti-Holocaust postings
>unchallenged, providing evidence that Nizkor is Neo-Nazi.  I'm

    Interesting definition of Neo-Nazi that no one else in the world seems
    to share.  Foul tip.

>planning on at least an ftp server, possibly read-write access to a
>few newsgroups, and mirroring sites like Freedom and Nizkor, goodies
>discussed on cypherpunks, for BSD, Linux or Digital Unix (I'm
>dreaming,) and one dial-up. With the cheapness of disc space, it's
>easy enough to provide gigs of goodies, but unfortunately subject to
>the heavy cost of bandwith.  I thought I saw an ad of dedicated flat
>rate 28k connection, which is better than nothing, for $99.00, much

    Anyone offering you such a rate is [1] connecting you to the internet
    via their own connection and therefore you are functioning within their
    own business whims.  What makes you think they won't cancel you if they
    get complaints?  

>better than any sort of 56k or 64k.  Virtual host would be great for
>the high bandwith, but sucks because of their absurd price for disc
>space rental, and being subject to "reasonable use" restrictions.  For
>instance, eff.org had to suspend access to Phrack because their ISP
>threatened to suspend their account for overuse, which doesn't
>happen with dedicated flat rate connections.  

    Ha!  What makes you think this?!!!  

    >Abuse from anti-racists
>is inevitable.  

    Finally, a true statment.  

    >With the flat-rate dedicated connection, I can sue for
>denial-of-service attacks from the ISP or from users on the net
>itself, for example, Morty "Death" Levi's attack on the net and his
>machine gun assault on his politicaly "moderate" opponants.  I'd be
>willing to be a test case, so legal aggressiveness may help the rights
>of the working class.

    Strike Three!  What makes you think you have any case just because you
    have flat-rate service?  This is simply a contract matter and any
    reasonable ISP will give themselves an out in their contract.  You can
    go after individuals who harrass you, but you can do that from any kind
    of connection.  In short, you don't sound like you know what you are
    talking about with regards to any of the topics you raise in this post.

    Enjoy your walk back to the dugout and, again, thank you for playing.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Wed Jul 24 21:55:48 PDT 1996
Article: 52946 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!DMI.USherb.CA!sunqbc.risq.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!pendragon!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,misc.legal,ont.general,bc.general,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Wiesenthal Center (Canada) and the Ostrich Syndrome
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24JUL199617351965@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4t2qun$5sv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31f5028a.11507721@news.pacificnet.net> <4t4rs7$hp1@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31f6196a.2669080@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52946 can.general:84390 alt.censorship:91034 comp.org.eff.talk:68251 misc.legal:20763 ont.general:47500 bc.general:49180 talk.politics.misc:413892

In article <31f6196a.2669080@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>	Maybe he's coming around. Slowly. Maybe he's been subjected to so
>much chutzpah, that he's starting to see the unaesthetic nature of it
>all. Jews always seem to over do it.

    Including your family?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 06:39:01 PDT 1996
Article: 52970 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ideological stances:
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:18 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24JUL199617184092@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4t4coa$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>	Amazing.  After all of this jumping up and down, a librarian with a fancy
>title.  

    You have a problem with librarians now, troll?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 06:39:02 PDT 1996
Article: 52972 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:40 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24JUL199617401206@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31f3cfd4.19888507@news.pacificnet.net> <035314Z24071996@anon.penet.fi> <31f61a8b.2957491@news.pacificnet.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52972 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1910

In article <31f61a8b.2957491@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>an572010@anon.penet.fi (Vyshinsky) wrote:
> 
>>There's also the rest of Eastern Europe, especially Poland.
> 
>The Holocaust dedicated have some things to say about the claim that
>there were 3,000,000+ Polish Jews. For their methods of responding to
>the challenge of these numbers, see alt.revisionism, "3,000,000 Prewar
>Polish Jews?"  

    Actually, all the demographers, geographers, historians, Jewish studies
    researchers, and Polish studies researchers agree there were about
    3,000,000 Jews in prewar Poland.  If Tommy knows something different
    than all these people (and, hey, it's possible) he has done a clearly
    insufficient job of demonstrating it.

    Ergo, all the demographers, geographers, historians, Jewish studies
    researchers, and Polish studies researchers STILL agree there were
    about 3,000,000 Jews in prewar Poland.  Funny that.

    And the funnier thing is: this doesn't seem to dissuade the zeyde from
    continuing to post his rubbish.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 06:39:03 PDT 1996
Article: 53023 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: 24 Jul 1996 06:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24JUL199606291798@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199608081023@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sv92b$huv@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4t4h5d$63r@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4t4h5d$63r@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 23 Jul 1996 06:50 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
>>In article <4t1qd7$lfq@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>> 
>>>	That would not be a pleasant thing for you to do.  In fact were anything to
>>>happen to them because of that, it might in fact be the last thing you ever
>>>do.  I hope that is clear.  
> 
>>    It sounds to me like a death threat.  The federal authorities
>>    considering extortion charges against you, Matty, probably won't
>>    consider death threats highly in your favor.
> 
>	Do you really think professionals are as stupid as you?  

    I used to, but that was before I stopped beating my wife.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 06:39:03 PDT 1996
Article: 53059 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: This is the guy who wants rational debate?
Date: 24 Jul 1996 18:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24JUL199618165187@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31F2BDE2.447C@ix.netcom.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    I am happy to offer a heap of rational debate for Mr. Dung.  I do hope
    he responds.

In article , jesusdung  writes...
>Yes there are christians all over the whole world, but the the jews are 
>the only internationalist community that everyone hates and which every 

    Just an observation from an atheist looking on:  

    I find it amusing that the Jews who publish here use their own names,
    but the racialists who publish here very often do so anonymously or
    with aliases.  Given that "jews are the only internationalist community
    that _everyone_ hates" [emphasis mine], one would think the anonymity
    would run the other way around.

    Unless, of course, Mr. Dung is mistaken in some way...  Would you care
    to comment why so many of your breatheren insist upon anonymity if
    "everyone" is on your side, Mr. Dung?

>nation has a long history of jewish bloodsuckers and swindlers. You never 
>hear from the whole world a terrible hatred against the Buddhists or 
>Armenians do you? WHy is it always the jews? The jew who is always in 
>power in every nation that he sets his foot in? The jew is always in head 
>of high finance and banking, never the artisan class. The jewish 
>contributions to the PRODUCTIVE arts is nearly nil. Because they have

    I have heard this argument before.  And the response to this argument I
    have seen made has never been adequately countered by a racialist.  It
    is: how about Israel?  They have one of the fastest growing GNPs in the
    world over the last two decades or so.  Jews hold most positions in
    that economy.  Isn't Israel evidence that Jews are more than capable at
    "productive arts"?

    Might you address this question, Mr. Dung?

>just filled in the middleman: the guy who makes money off money but never 
>money from hard-labored work. Only few jews do that. Labor is commendable 
>but not interest and usury.

    Doesn't capitalism depend upon concepts such as interest?  Isn't
    capitalism the polar opposite of communism, which you have been telling
    us is a Jewish invention?  Doesn't that make interest a good thing? 

    Might you enlighten us on your opinions of capitalism, Mr. Dung? 
    Please pay particular attention to the concept of time value of money.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 06:39:04 PDT 1996
Article: 53073 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:26 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24JUL199617260738@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t4qci$eg7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4t4qci$eg7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 23 Jul 1996 14:15:27 GMT, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> 
>>In <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt 
>>Giwer) writes: 
>>>
>>>	McFlea, McFly, it does not matter.
>>>	This fool clams to be in his 50s and has the intellecutal age
>>of a teenager.
>>>
>>>		Beyond that, he is a greate defend of what he is
>>incapable of understandiug.  
>>>		After all, he is a mongoloid idiot behind a
>>keyboard.  
>>>
>>Well, Giwer -- when you have nothing left but personal attacks, you are
>>sitting at the botom of the barrel looking up.  Why waste bandwidth
>>with this type of tripe.  Obviously you have been bested in a fair
>>fight, and have no ammunition left to continue the battle.  Be a man
>>and admit defeat.  Better yet, take your ball and bat and go home.  
> 
>It is rather difficult to explain to a fatbroad such as yourself.  I would
>suggest you read for a while and learn how things are done by men.  When you
>can compete, bet back in the game.  You are not handicapped for being a woman,
>only because you are a woman and out of your league.  

    Ah, once again: the argument of someone who knows he has lost but is
    clinging for dear life.  Rather pathetic, isn't it?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 11:43:55 PDT 1996
Article: 53121 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU
Date: 23 Jul 1996 06:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199606242232@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4t0ma8$5q6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4t0ma8$5q6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>My Tampa address is:
> 
>Box # 27
>14205 Nebraska Avenue
>Tampa, Florida
>33682-2541
> 
>phone number: 813-972-2574

    I presume this is a forgery.  It didn't contain any insults.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 11:43:56 PDT 1996
Article: 53129 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFly
Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199608192128@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4t26c5$pml@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4t26c5$pml@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...

>	Now we have McFly wasting all his creating ignoed messages.
>	What s tool.  

Translation into English:

    "Now we have McFly wasting all his [time] creating igno[r]ed messages.
    What [a] tool."  

    So this is a new Giwer tack, as yesterday's "it has been decided the
    Holocaust didn't happen" tack failed so miserably.  Today, Giwer will
    claim that his opponents are wasting their time as their messages are
    ignored.

    This one ain't gonna float any better than the last one did.

    I didn't get a copy of Grynspan's e-mail, but from what I read here it
    looks like he was right.  The Giwer-entity is self destructing before
    our eyes.  The trolls have become more and more off topic, absurd,
    desperate, ridiculous, and insignificant.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 15:09:06 PDT 1996
Article: 53164 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usc!newshub.csu.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russia
Subject: Re: Keeping Neighborhoods Jewish (ADV)
Date: 25 Jul 1996 08:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
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In article <065328Z25071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu writes:
> 
>>In article <031307Z22071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...
>>>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu writes:
>>> 
>>>>In article <31f10eb4.1610603@news.redshift.com>, mikew@redshift.com (Sensei Buffet) writes...
>>>>
>>>>>Quiz: Name one non-Jew on Seinfeld.
>>>>
>>>>    Answer: I don't know that there are any.
>>>>
>>>>    Quiz: In a country with only two percent or so of the population
>>>>    Jewish, why is this one of the highest rated shows every week with
>>>>    20-25% of the TV sets trained on it?
>>> 
>>>Because our society is controlled by Jews.
>>
>>    Of course, how silly of me.  That explains how the Jews got Alan
>>    Dershowitz elected president, then.
> 
>Politicians are controlled by Jews.  It is unnecessary for Jews to be
>president for this to be so.

    So they control just about everything except yu and your little cadre
    of patriots, huh?

    Well, in that case if I were you, I'd stock up on canned goods.  :>

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jul 25 20:02:01 PDT 1996
Article: 53194 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A SINCERE APOLOGY
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:53 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
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In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes...
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
> 
>>I feel that I must apologize for my dyslexic rantings for the past few days. As 
>>many of you know, I am a diagnosed schizophrenic with paranoid tendencies. I 
>>usually take about 50 mg. of Thorazine for this. Unfortunately, my prescription 
>>ran out while I was busy awaiting the Women's Field Hockey Olympic Trials on 
>>T.V (those butch women in their short skirts drive me wild and are 
>>the only things that can counteract the recent paucity of my libido).
                                                 ^^^^^^^ 
>>I am now back on my medication.
> 
>How come I think this is, perhaps, not entirely unforged?  

    Because the forger spelled "paupacy" wrong.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul 26 05:07:57 PDT 1996
Article: 53247 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:30 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4t504s$47n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>	Why should I have to learn MY rules?
> 
>	Have you missed the people who have admitted I control this NG?  
> 
>	If so, why have you missed it?  
> 
>	You ain't jack shit.  

    There is a strong philosophy of free and open speech here.  But I
    predict the day is coming very soon where Matt Giwer will simply
    disappear from alt.revisionism forever.  Very soon.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul 26 05:07:58 PDT 1996
Article: 53292 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Score -- posting stats, June 22-July 19
Date: 25 Jul 1996 09:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
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In article <4t7bi7$iu9@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>If someone was foolish enough to make this a criminal matter it will be up to
>the investigators to determine the extent of the harrassment.  You folks have
>taken yourselves out of the picture entirely.  You no longer have any input
>into the course of what happens.  

    Criminal investigation does not limit the possibility of civil charges
    being filed.  Even conviction doesn't stop that.

>But you see here that in a criminal investigation the call to my father will
>be investigated.  Army, Marine, Purple Heart, Police officer, Grand Knight of
>the KofC, Officer of several S&Ls and he will report what happened in the best
>police detail.  The instant they talk to him the investigation turns around.  

    Gee, given all his honors he must be pretty disappointed in you...

    Actually, all he can do is testify to the contents of the phone call. 
    If he is honest (not a given being that he is related to you), there
    won't be all that much interesting to come from the interview.

>If you have been part of it, my best advice is to back out as quickly as
>possible.  But then you will posture here and ignore good advice.  

    It's not good advice; it's a desperate plea from a doomed man.

>	You are not an attorney.  You are god pretending to be an attorney.  

    Hee hee.

>If you folks have done what you are implying you have seriously lost it.  

    You are projecting again.

>But then I welcome it.  
>A complete investigation without a penny expended on my part.  
>What more could I ask?  

    You could ask for some character. 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul 26 05:07:59 PDT 1996
Article: 53326 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 25 Jul 1996 09:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
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In article <4t798h$ge1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 24 Jul 1996 17:30 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>wrote:
> 
>>In article <4t504s$47n@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>> 
>>>	Why should I have to learn MY rules?
>>>	Have you missed the people who have admitted I control this NG?  
>>>	If so, why have you missed it?  
>>>	You ain't jack shit.  
> 
>>    There is a strong philosophy of free and open speech here.  But I
>>    predict the day is coming very soon where Matt Giwer will simply
>>    disappear from alt.revisionism forever.  Very soon.
> 
>	That is neither the first time it has been predicted nor the first time you
>have predicted it.

    Oh, I do think it is the first time I've predicted it.  And I stand by
    it.  It would be a simple matter to robo-kill all your posts if someone
    wanted to do so.  And, I might point out, it would not be illeagal.
    But being the internet expert you are, you knew that.

>	Or shall I take this as a threat under the laws of Canada?  

    Seeing that you are not in Canada and I am not in Canada, what does
    Canadian law have to do with it?  Nothing.

    But you knew that!  :b

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri Jul 26 05:08:00 PDT 1996
Article: 53341 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: CODOH (Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust) is alive & well with VITRUAL DOMAIN!
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:37156 alt.politics.nationalism.white:26182 alt.revisionism:53341 alt.skinheads:32905

>ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) writes:

>>(The "motivation" for this action,
>>in total violation of contract will prove an interesting revelation
>>when the action against valleynet reaches the courtroom.)

    The motivation has already been acknowledged.  It is unclear whether
    there was an explicit contract and unclear whether the action was in
    "total violation" of the service agreement and any implicit contract. 
    CODOH has said they don't plan to sue.

    Other than being completely wrong, you have a point.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:13 PDT 1996
Article: 53439 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Numbers Racket one day, next day boolean
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:41 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
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References: <31f79659.9129523@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31f79659.9129523@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>	Now with Deja News and the terrifying boolean logic a person can
>do better by going to this access to historical alt.misellaneous
>files.

    If you find boolean logic terrifying you might consider making an
    appointment with Dr. Keren for some therapy.  It turns out that he is
    THAT kind of doctor.  :>

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:14 PDT 1996
Article: 53494 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: 24 Jul 1996 06:25 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24JUL199606250394@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4t4gvj$63r@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 20:39:07 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
> 
>># But upon the last post on this subject, you do no have tax
>># exempt status and therefore such solicitation is criminal.
> 
>>This seems like a totally idiotic statement.
> 
>>Can someone who knows something about these matters confirm?
> 
>>It is clear that Giwer is going down the tubes. 
> 
>Ask Alec Grynspan who was good enough to research the matter and found it only
>applies to those have tax exempt status.  It was previously stated that it was
>being done in this manner because he did not have tax exempt status.  I am
>only going by what has been posted here.
> 
>If that is in error, then someone needs to correct those previous posts.  

    The previous posts were correct.  It is your reading comprehension that
    needs work.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:14 PDT 1996
Article: 53502 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: 22 Jul 1996 10:26 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <22JUL199610262433@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4svtpo$7lu@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...
>	Giwer is telling us that 1777, 1778, 1779, 1780, 1781 are not part of the 
>American Revolution?
> 
>	Valley Forge was not part of the American Revolution?
>	Read any history book Matty poo.
> 
>	Having had his rather ignorant thesis disputed, Giwer has taken to 
>denying the American Revolution.  Amazing.

    Well, in concurrent posts he is now denying he has ever threatened a
    lawsuit.  And the funniest part is that he gets upset when we call him
    a denier!  :>

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:15 PDT 1996
Article: 53621 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 26 Jul 1996 19:18 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <26JUL199619185155@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4tbj5f$24g@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes...
>In article <4t1ff2$al0@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:

>>Because I have no intention of leading him to exactly what he did wrong that
>>caused it to be shut down.  It is very simple and straightfoward.  It is also
>>very easy to overlook.  He continues to overlook the reason.  
> 
>    In other words, you openly admit you deliberately lied at least two
>out of the three times.  Now that we have your completely candid admission
>that you are a wilful liar, the only question is how many other lies you
>have told, including about your scientific knowledge.

>    Obviously nothing at all you say can be trusted, since you have now
>revealed your willingness to lie when it suits your purposes.

    Of course it is possible that his statement above is a lie.  :>

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:16 PDT 1996
Article: 53648 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Score -- posting stats, June 22-July 19
Date: 26 Jul 1996 17:06 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 68
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <26JUL199617060228@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4t6aum$4fq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4t7bi7$iu9@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <25JUL199609164840@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4t9gqi$odo@access5.digex.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4t9gqi$odo@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes...
>In article <4t90uq$sk3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On 25 Jul 1996 09:16 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>>wrote:
>>>    Gee, given all his honors [your father] must be pretty disappointed
>>>in you...
>>
>>	Have you ever spent any time when you jump at every phone call with the
>>expectation of it being the last bad news about him there can be?  Do you
>>really think I feel kindly towards you or anyone who makes comments like that
>>about him?  Do you think there was anything but rage after hearing about this
>>phone call?
> 
>    I thought you didn't have hot buttons.

    Yes, this loser insists on no holds barred discourse, but when someone
    decides to open the throttle back at him, he goes haywire.

    And I really do suspect that either his parents are deeply disappointed
    in how he has turned out - or else there is something wrong with his
    parents too.

>>	Do you consider that response unnatural?
> 
>    I thought you considered emotional responses like that as something to
>be scorned.

    Well, no one will ever accuse him of having a positive self image.

>>	Or is this a new phase of your harrassment campaign?  
>>
>>>    Actually, all he can do is testify to the contents of the phone call. 
>>>    If he is honest (not a given being that he is related to you), there
>>>    won't be all that much interesting to come from the interview.
>>
>>You mean there will be in interest in a person identifying himself as Ken
>>McVay called him?
> 
>    One non-obscene phone call does not constitute harrassment.

    Yes.  I learned this several years ago when I was being harrassed.  I
    needed to collect evidence of a pattern of behavior.  I had no case if
    I only had evidence of one incident (and it is doubtful that this one
    phone call to the parents even constitutes a legitimate data point
    given what we have been told of the content of the call.)

>>And then it follows that I attempted to email McVay to get to the bottom of it
>>and I find a bot at his address rejecting my email.  So he refused contact
>>with me.  So I go public with the best information I have.  And as soon
>>as I have different information I post that.  I have no way to contact
>>that is not on my LD bill.  
> 
>    You posted the whois information which includes a street address. 
>Postage stamps show up on your LD bill?  What an interesting phone company
>you have.
> 
>    Could not get a friend (assuming you have one) to send a message for
>you?  But I suppose a mere 163 IQ type could not think of that.

    Baby Giwer (the son) has an email account.  Ken probably doesn't have
    that account blocked.

    Of course, we don't know what the son thinks of his father either.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:17 PDT 1996
Article: 53662 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 26 Jul 1996 18:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <31f8cdd3.478891@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>> You are mentally retarded. It's the only conclusion I can
>>> make. There is no way that a normal person wouldn't have
>>> understood such a thing, after so many times.
>>
>>Danny, he's a _troll_.  He's deliberately saying stupid things in
>>order to make people talk about him and to distract from the facts
>>of the Holocaust.
> 
>	J a m i e, the only names I see above are "Jamie McCarthy" and
>"Daniel Keren". Now when you say, "Danny, he's a _troll_. He's ...
>saying stupid things ...", I take it you are talking about Keren.

    No, he is talking about Matt Giwer.  The clue here is that Jamie is
    talking to Danny in second person, but refer's to a third person.  We
    don't know from this post who that third person is, but a very quick
    check of DejaNews points us to message-ID 
    and we see that it was Matt Giwer.

    You should have been able to do that.

    But then you haven't gotten that first, second, third person stuff down
    very well, have you zeyde?

    How are the grandkids?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:17 PDT 1996
Article: 53670 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: This is the guy who wants rational debate?
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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    Thank you for your response.  I'd like to point out a couple of things
    you've said that appear to me to be contradictions.

In article , jesusdung  writes...
>On 24 Jul 1996, Danny Mittleman wrote:
>> In article , jesusdung  writes...
>> >Yes there are christians all over the whole world, but the the jews are 
>> >the only internationalist community that everyone hates and which every 
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>     Just an observation from an atheist looking on:  
>> 
>>     I find it amusing that the Jews who publish here use their own names,
>>     but the racialists who publish here very often do so anonymously or
>>     with aliases.  Given that "jews are the only internationalist community
>>     that _everyone_ hates" [emphasis mine], one would think the anonymity
>>     would run the other way around.
>> 
>>     Unless, of course, Mr. Dung is mistaken in some way...  Would you care
>>     to comment why so many of your breatheren insist upon anonymity if
>>     "everyone" is on your side, Mr. Dung?

>   Everyone on my side? I don't think so. I have a future: I want to 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>feed my family and not be anathem on campus and I like my head on my 
>shoulders AND the ability to get highered by higher institutions. If I 
>come out with this sort of info., then my booty's in trouble. 
>	Jews who publish use their own names because it is safe to do 
>soo. The govt.'s on their side, not on mine. People who share my ideas 
>are a dying species. Establishm,ent buffoons can attack and write 
>whatever they want since they're kosher. We're not. If we politicize on 
>jewry our asses are branded for our whole life. 

    This statement appears to contradict your statement above that
    "everyone hates" the Jews.  Which is it?  Does everyone hate the Jews,
    or is it a small enough group who run counter to public opinion and
    therefore must remain anonymous for their own well being?

>> >nation has a long history of jewish bloodsuckers and swindlers. You never 
>> >hear from the whole world a terrible hatred against the Buddhists or 
>> >Armenians do you? WHy is it always the jews? The jew who is always in 
>> >power in every nation that he sets his foot in? The jew is always in head 
>> >of high finance and banking, never the artisan class. The jewish 
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >contributions to the PRODUCTIVE arts is nearly nil. Because they have
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>     I have heard this argument before.  And the response to this argument I
>>     have seen made has never been adequately countered by a racialist.  It
>>     is: how about Israel?  They have one of the fastest growing GNPs in the
>>     world over the last two decades or so.  Jews hold most positions in
>>     that economy.  Isn't Israel evidence that Jews are more than capable at
>>     "productive arts"?
> 
>>     Might you address this question, Mr. Dung?
>	
>	all right mr scrooge: Israel is sodomizing america and the west 
>for money and  it has thebacking of wall street and all other forms of 
>banking and finance supporting it right now and at its inception. Jews 
                                                                   ^^^^
>are artisans and hold,positions there because it's acountry called 
    ^^^^^^^^^
>Israel: jews live their remember? Like NY City Jews make up a great 
>collective number wise. As to artisans, ther are many Jewish artisans. In 
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>the East - the shtetls (gods, what an ugly name) and ghettoes they are 
>like all others in that they need a cobbler and a butcher and adoctor. 
>Unfortunately they also have a history of usury, banking (the bad type) 
>and exploitation. 

    So, which is it?  Jews are "never the artisan class" or "ther are many
    Jewish artisans?"  Granted some Jews are not artisans; some do go into
    banking, but are you saying other are or are not artisans?  In Israel,
    don't Jewish artisans do an adequate job at "the productive arts?"

>> >just filled in the middleman: the guy who makes money off money but never 
>> >money from hard-labored work. Only few jews do that. Labor is commendable 
>> >but not interest and usury.
>> 
>>     Doesn't capitalism depend upon concepts such as interest?  Isn't
>>     capitalism the polar opposite of communism, which you have been telling
>>     us is a Jewish invention?  Doesn't that make interest a good thing? 
> 
>   Jews have been the greatest capitalists and industrialists in the world. 
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    So, isn't banking a core component of capitalism?  Isn't money lending
    necessary to leverage captial?  Do you have a problem with money
    lending at non-usury rates?

>Rothschild, Warburg & Co. were die-hard zionist 
>capitalists...what's new about that? THey also financed the Bolshevik 
>Rev. and Communism. You see, they both work for the same goals. For a 
>better exposition of this view read Benson's "Zionist Factor".

>>     Might you enlighten us on your opinions of capitalism, Mr. Dung? 
>>     Please pay particular attention to the concept of time value of money.
> 
>Gain for thebetterment of life not for the sake of money. High finance 
>capitalism a la wall street (the wall of joy) is evil and must go. I'm  
>of a socialist bend of mind. Like the Nazis. :)

    I agree with you that there are many problems with Wall Street as it
    is.  I seriously doubt that the way things are there is good for our
    economy.  However, I don't see any racial orreligious agenda going on
    there.  Do you?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:18 PDT 1996
Article: 53704 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: 26 Jul 1996 18:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
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References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4tadum$4bja@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <4tadum$4bja@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
> 
>You might say that Mattie-poo is unarmed in a battle of wits?  :-)
> 
>Next he'll be calling me fatbroad.

    That's nothing.  When Michael Keaton posted here, Giwer called him a
    batfraud.

    {duck}

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 11:57:19 PDT 1996
Article: 53706 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TOO SHOCKING FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE
Date: 26 Jul 1996 17:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
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In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article <4svcth$j40@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M
>Huber) wrote:
> 
> 
>> Herein lies the basic fable. There is no such thing as 6,000,000 j*ws 
>> murdered in some alleged holocaust. This habitual recanting of untruths 
>> is what has created revisionism in the first place.
> 
>Gosh... this is where I came in over 2 years ago!
> 
>Okay, Mr. H*ber, I'll bite:
> 
>WHERE DID THE JEWS GO?

    They all went to Miami Beach.  And they keep murdering the German
    "tourists" who come there to expose them.

    Hey, it makes more sense than any theory H*ber has put forward...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 12:38:43 PDT 1996
Article: 26182 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: CODOH (Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust) is alive & well with VITRUAL DOMAIN!
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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>ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) writes:

>>(The "motivation" for this action,
>>in total violation of contract will prove an interesting revelation
>>when the action against valleynet reaches the courtroom.)

    The motivation has already been acknowledged.  It is unclear whether
    there was an explicit contract and unclear whether the action was in
    "total violation" of the service agreement and any implicit contract. 
    CODOH has said they don't plan to sue.

    Other than being completely wrong, you have a point.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 12:40:50 PDT 1996
Article: 37156 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: CODOH (Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust) is alive & well with VITRUAL DOMAIN!
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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>ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) writes:

>>(The "motivation" for this action,
>>in total violation of contract will prove an interesting revelation
>>when the action against valleynet reaches the courtroom.)

    The motivation has already been acknowledged.  It is unclear whether
    there was an explicit contract and unclear whether the action was in
    "total violation" of the service agreement and any implicit contract. 
    CODOH has said they don't plan to sue.

    Other than being completely wrong, you have a point.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jul 27 12:49:46 PDT 1996
Article: 32905 of alt.skinheads
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: CODOH (Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust) is alive & well with VITRUAL DOMAIN!
Date: 25 Jul 1996 22:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <25JUL199622160072@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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>ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) writes:

>>(The "motivation" for this action,
>>in total violation of contract will prove an interesting revelation
>>when the action against valleynet reaches the courtroom.)

    The motivation has already been acknowledged.  It is unclear whether
    there was an explicit contract and unclear whether the action was in
    "total violation" of the service agreement and any implicit contract. 
    CODOH has said they don't plan to sue.

    Other than being completely wrong, you have a point.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 28 08:46:41 PDT 1996
Article: 53948 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russia
Subject: Re: Keeping Neighborhoods Jewish (ADV)
Date: 28 Jul 1996 07:39 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 50
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References: <031307Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <21JUL199621445525@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <065328Z25071996@anon.penet.fi> <194312Z27071996@anon.penet.fi>
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In article <194312Z27071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu writes:
>> In article <065328Z25071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...
>> >dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu writes:
>> >>In article <031307Z22071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...
[some non-relevent stuff snippeed] 

>> >>>Because our society is controlled by Jews.
>> >>
>> >>    Of course, how silly of me.  That explains how the Jews got Alan
>> >>    Dershowitz elected president, then.
>> > 
>> >Politicians are controlled by Jews.  It is unnecessary for Jews to be
>> >president for this to be so.
>> 
>>     So they control just about everything except you and your little cadre
>>     of patriots, huh?
> 
>Yes.  That's the sad truth.  Whites are extradinarily weak in the status
>quo.

    Well, a good affirmative action program should help you whites  :>
    You are saying that at 85% of the population (or something close to
    that), whites can't achieve enough to hold their own in society?  If
    this is the case then the whites must truly be inferior to the other
    15% (and most of them are black!)

>>     Well, in that case if I were you, I'd stock up on canned goods.  :>
> 
>Funny how you say "they," but I'll humour you.  Why not fight them?

    Why not join them?  At close to 85% of the population whites are a
    significant voting block.  Whites can vote anyone into office they
    choose.  Whites can start banks and other financial institutions. 
    Whites can produce TV shows and movies.  Seems to me that whites can do
    most anything they want in society simply based on their large presence
    herein.  Why fight?

>Anti-semitic theory holds that their self-destruction is inevitable,
>however, better soon than after the white race becomes extinct, so
>eventually whites should be able to enjoy a nation without Jews pandering
>to our weaknesses, or, rather, turning our weaknesses into strengthes,
>like in the past, but living up to our potentials, without tired old
>values getting in the way, such as religion sordid with idolatry.

    huh?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 28 08:46:42 PDT 1996
Article: 53949 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russia
Subject: Re: Keeping Neighborhoods Jewish (ADV)
Date: 28 Jul 1996 08:07 MST
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Lines: 45
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References: <031307Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <21JUL199621445525@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <065328Z25071996@anon.penet.fi> <224302Z27071996@anon.penet.fi>
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In article <224302Z27071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...

>> Could it be because there really is no Incredible Jewish Conspiracy to
>> Control Our Thoughts?  Nah, that would be the simple answer.
> 
>Jews inherently control a free market, because their genotype causes
>them to focus on slaving away for their own kind, to sacrifice their
>own potential freedom to make the rich Jews richer.  No other race
>has the genetic bindings to cause such extremes of sacrifice for the
>common wealth of their own members of the capitalist class, therefore,
>to take away Jewish power, requires anti-semitism, the control of the
>market, nationalism.  None other than the white race can so sacrifice
>themselves for the common good of their community, the natural status
>of the whites being the highest realms of their own type of
>civilization, and incidental good to other races by accident or
>agreement.  No other race but the white race, has the genotype to
>learn from other races without despoiling our own in any way.  We put
>our imprint everywhere, though colored races are uncharitable enough
>to refuse to say it, that their cultures are now white with a coloured
>imprint strong enough to distinguish their charactor from the white,
>similar to the white mold, though we should consider ourselves to have
>a white culture with a strong coloured imprint, strong enough that the
>current white culture can be considered Afro-Asian for rhetorical
>reasons, to distinguish from purely white racial culture.

    Do you, like, have any evidence at all to support this genotype theory
    of yours?

>> You can't have it two ways.  Either this all-powerful conspiracy exists
>> or it doesn't.
> 
>It does.  But it's not a conspiracy, they're open about controlling
>the world, they just mask it behind transparent phrases like "free
>trade," "free markets," "global economy," and zillions of anti-racist
>phrases such as "world unity," "we are all one people," "racism is
>always wrong," "Judiasm is a safe religion," etc., as part of their
>dissing of their opposition, their competitors, and opponants of
>their realm of fighting.

    So, what evidence would have to be presented to you to demonstrate to
    you that this theory of yours is wrong?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jul 28 12:40:51 PDT 1996
Article: 53963 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TWA Flt 800
Date: 28 Jul 1996 08:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 70
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References: <4tcnbh$7er@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31FA7270.3044@unb.ca>
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    The Giwer original was a troll, but it raises some interesting points
    about methodology apart of the Holocaust.

In article <31FA7270.3044@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes...
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> A classic example.
>> 
>> Putting everything together as of 7/26 there was a small explosion and the 2.5
>> miles later the entire plane exploded.

    On 7/27 it was said that the plane continued to fly for about 10
    seconds without the cockpit.  At this amount of time the plane would
    have traveled about one mile.  The difference here is probably not
    important at the level of detail we are talking, though.  I believe my
    information came from NBC news.  I am unsure where their information
    came from.

>>         Everything points to a bomb on board.

    It is the most likely scenario as of 7/26.  The NTSB has not ruled out
    other scenarios and Robert Francis stated on 7/26 (on the Today show)
    that he still estimates about a 10% chance of it being mechanical
    failure.

>> Yet we have dozens of eyewitnesses including an AF reservist reporting
>> something like a missile rising towards the plane.

    I don't know about dozens, but there were multiple.  And it was reported
    early on that there was radar evidence demonstrating a missile of some 
    sort. 

>> This is despite the impossible "it looked like a meteorite" trajectory
>> description of one.
> 
>Please demonstrate the theoretical basis for claiming that a meteorite
>strike is an absolute impossibility *if* no other more ordinary reason
>is identified.  Please note that meteorites and their effects on the
>planet are one of my interests so try not to stick your foot in your
>mouth again.
> 
>>         This despite the impossible altitude for a Stinger.

    NPR had a weapons expert on on 7/25 who stated that while the aircraft was
    at an altitude greater than the published range for a stinger missile, that
    the actual range is about 25% more than is published and that the plane was
    within that larger number.

>Please indicate why a man who claims to have had as much military
>exposure such as yourself believes that Stingers are the only antiaircraft
>missiles available in the world.

    Actually, the same weapons expert stated that there was not another missile
    that was a better candidate for this job than the stinger.

    The expert also spoke of the problems of operating the missile from on
    board a ship as the ship would be rocking back and forth.  He said it was
    possible, but would be very difficult and require considerable training.

>>         But then we never said holohuggers were very bright.
> 
>No, we've said that *you* aren't very bright.

    Actually, while degrees are not the equivelent of brightness, if they serve
    at least as a weak proxy, it is interesting to note the difference in
    educational level between the two groups who post here.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:06:35 PDT 1996
Article: 54031 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust "Museum of Tolerance"
Date: 28 Jul 1996 14:56 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
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References: <31fb9531.8765535@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31fb9531.8765535@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	This is the name of the Holocaust museum in Los Angeles,
>California, formerly known as the "The Simon w Museum", or something
>like that.
>	The unwritten but expressed motto of the "Museum of Tolerance"
>is: 'The members of the Museum of Tolerance do not tolerate any
>opposition to the contents and conclusions of the Museum of
>Tolerance'.

    I am sure they would.  But neither you - nor anyone else - has
    presented evidence which stands up to scrutiny to show their
    conclusions are wrong.

    You are missing the point that assertions and repetition revisionism do
    not make.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:06:36 PDT 1996
Article: 54079 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 28 Jul 1996 14:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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References: <31fb93ad.8378259@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31fb93ad.8378259@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>Question:
>	The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>is:
> 
>	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?
> 
>	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>money. 

    I am guessing "A", but am curious:  how do your son and daughter-in-law
    answer this question?


                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:06:36 PDT 1996
Article: 54092 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TWA Flt 800
Date: 28 Jul 1996 20:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
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References: <4tcnbh$7er@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31FA7270.3044@unb.ca> <28JUL199608015953@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31FBF01E.17BB@unb.ca>
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    We are having lots of discussion about Stinger missiles, but missing
    the main point of Giwer's TWA analogy.

    Giwer pointed out that many witnesses reported seeing a missile strike
    the plane when the physical evidence now seems to be indicating that
    the plane was destroyed by an internal bomb.  (Giwer asserted this to
    be fact, but the rest of the world has not yet caught up to Giwer on
    this yet.)

    What is important here to our Holocaust discussion is the analogy of
    this testimony to the testimony of witnesses in concentration camps.

    In the case of the concentration camps we occasionally have witnesses
    report seeing sights which are not born out by examination of physical
    evidence.  Historians have said that this is to be expected and have
    not worried very much about it.  Historians have triangulated in from
    eyewitness testimony when possible and used physical evidence when
    available.

    Holocaust deniers, on the other hand, have grabbed on to impossible eye
    witness accounts and held them out as evidence that the Holocaust could
    not possibly have happened.

    This is analogous to the deniers of the TWA crash saying that since
    some eye witnesses reported seeing a missile but we now think a missile
    to be impossible that the plane did not crash.  Further, the bodies
    found must have come from assorted other flights who occasionally lose
    bodies.  And the 100 or so bodies unaccounted for are landed at some
    unnamed destination in Europe and are now living undiscovered somewhere
    over there.  AND it would be a kindness to the families of these people
    if we helped them find their loved ones, rather than supporting their
    grieving - which, of course they are only doing in order to cash in on
    the accident with large insurance settlements, made for TV movies, and
    National Star articles.  Further, Yale Edeiken will probably claim to
    be related to most of these victims.

    That is where Giwer's analogy properly leads. 
                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:06:37 PDT 1996
Article: 54100 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: 28 Jul 1996 14:48 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
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References: <31fb9510.8733349@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31fb9510.8733349@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>		
>	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
>declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
>the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
>	It is tacit declaration they know they would lose, that they
>don't have faith in their position, that they know deep down inside or
>are consciously aware their own position sucks. 

    Does this mean you have decided to take up Yale's offer?  Or are you
    still chicken?

>	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
>open discussion on the Holocaust. 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:06:38 PDT 1996
Article: 54151 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Test - please ignore !
Date: 29 Jul 1996 06:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199606362402@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4tgt0i$r9e@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <4tgt0i$r9e@lex.zippo.com>, xxx writes...
>Test - please ignore !

    Why?  You are simply testing to see if you can post anonymously. 
    Shouldn't we take this attempt and trace it back as far as we can go? 
    Rich, Mike, did he leave tracks?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:06:39 PDT 1996
Article: 54183 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: 29 Jul 1996 06:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199606433755@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net> <4sklen$49e@hermes.oanet.com> <31ef37f4.2891746@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>>Where is your evidence that Mr. McVay is libelling you ? It is not libel
>>to quote you.
> 
>Maintaining my material out of context on Nizkor such that it appears
>different from the way it does in context is libel.  

    I doubt that the form he maintains things in could be construed as
    libel.  But go ahead and sue if you want.  Just stop whining.

>Any referenence he maintains by anyone else that refers to me as a nazi or an
>antisemite is libel.  

    Antisemite?  No, that is demonstratably true.  Nazi?  That might make
    for an interesting case.  Lucky for Ken, if you sue in the US, is that
    you are probably a public figure on the internet (after all, you have
    your own newsgroup) and a much wider latitude is afforded Ken in his
    dealings with public figures.

    I doubt there is case law yet for the internet on this matter.  I would
    think NY Times v. Sullivan would be an important case for determining
    internet case law here.  (Yale, would you agree?)  Giwer, guess who
    won?

>	Not to mention that anything of mine posted without my permission is a
>violation of my automatic copyright on what I create.  

    This, also, will make for interesting trial debate.  So when does the
    suit get filed?  Or are you still whining?

>I demanded it be taken down so long ago that even McVay refused, along with
>his fellow collaborators in copyright violation and a host of others who found
>no problem with that violation of the law.  

    Like Deja News.  Are you going to sue them too?

>You may remember it lead to an attack upon my website for a few trivial
>matters that were "reported" but nothing ever came of the reports.  It was a
>nice diversion away from the copyright violations of the director and the
>contributors to Nizkor.  

    Huh?  You can present such a linkage in court? 

    So, start the suit!  What is taking you so long, chicken?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:06:39 PDT 1996
Article: 54199 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 29 Jul 1996 06:55 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
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References: <31E3EF41.D5D@gryn.org> <4s59e1$l9f@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4t252u$njd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <6bc_9607231742@tor250.org> <4ti50r$l3l@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4ti50r$l3l@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>On 27 Jul 1996 15:19:48 GMT, alec@gryn.org@     (Big Kahuna) wrote:
> 
>>In <4t8nm5$g7q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>>	Sort of surprising it has not been done.  After all, holohuggers want anyone
>>>who is not as gullable as they are silenced.  
> 
>>Let's try and follow your logic, Matt.
> 
>>1. It's a snap to get rid of you via a simple robo-cancel. There are
>>   quite a few around for spamming. One to get rid of you would be
>>   simpler to set up - just a script in the right place.
> 
>Of course.  That is the only way holohuggers can deal with the truth -- delete
>it.  
> 
>I am rather surprised it has not been done before.  

    Two problems with this lack of logic, Giwer-loon:

    1. No one has mass deleted your posts yet.
    2. Nizkor deals with truth by doing the opposite: they archive it.  And
    you seem to have a problem with that.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:06:40 PDT 1996
Article: 54223 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.russian,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russia
Subject: Re: Keeping Neighborhoods Jewish (ADV)
Date: 29 Jul 1996 09:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199609240131@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <031307Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <21JUL199621445525@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <065328Z25071996@anon.penet.fi> <091334Z29071996@anon.penet.fi>
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In article <091334Z29071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu writes:
>> In article <194312Z27071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi writes...
> 
>> >>     Well, in that case if I were you, I'd stock up on canned goods.  :>
>> > 
>> >Funny how you say "they," but I'll humour you.  Why not fight them?
>> 
>>     Why not join them?  At close to 85% of the population whites are a
>>     significant voting block.  Whites can vote anyone into office they
>>     choose.  Whites can start banks and other financial institutions. 
>>     Whites can produce TV shows and movies.  Seems to me that whites can do
>>     most anything they want in society simply based on their large presence
>>     herein.  Why fight?
> 
>Whites are only 53-57% of the American population, after substracting
>the percentages of colored people, such as the Blacks, the Asians, the
>Jews, the Chicanos, etc., who all together have tens of millions of
>non-whites fraudulently recorded in the White category, along with
>millions of colored people who were not counted by the census,
>artificially depressing the percentage of Afro-Asians reported by our
>fraud of a census.

    Ok, in that case...

    Why not join them?  At close to 57% of the population, whites (as you
    define them) are a significant voting block.  Whites can vote anyone
    into office they choose.  Whites can start banks and other financial
    institutions.  Whites can produce TV shows and movies.  Seems to me
    that whites can do most anything they want in society simply based on
    their large presence herein.  Why fight?

    Or the better question: why are the Jews dominating you so?  Are you
    all incompetent?  Are you all wimps?  What is wrong with you guys that
    you are so emasculated by 2% or so of the population?

    Given all of the "facts" you have stated, I'm embarrased to be white.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:36:21 PDT 1996
Article: 37575 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: 29 Jul 1996 06:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
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In article <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>>Where is your evidence that Mr. McVay is libelling you ? It is not libel
>>to quote you.
> 
>Maintaining my material out of context on Nizkor such that it appears
>different from the way it does in context is libel.  

    I doubt that the form he maintains things in could be construed as
    libel.  But go ahead and sue if you want.  Just stop whining.

>Any referenence he maintains by anyone else that refers to me as a nazi or an
>antisemite is libel.  

    Antisemite?  No, that is demonstratably true.  Nazi?  That might make
    for an interesting case.  Lucky for Ken, if you sue in the US, is that
    you are probably a public figure on the internet (after all, you have
    your own newsgroup) and a much wider latitude is afforded Ken in his
    dealings with public figures.

    I doubt there is case law yet for the internet on this matter.  I would
    think NY Times v. Sullivan would be an important case for determining
    internet case law here.  (Yale, would you agree?)  Giwer, guess who
    won?

>	Not to mention that anything of mine posted without my permission is a
>violation of my automatic copyright on what I create.  

    This, also, will make for interesting trial debate.  So when does the
    suit get filed?  Or are you still whining?

>I demanded it be taken down so long ago that even McVay refused, along with
>his fellow collaborators in copyright violation and a host of others who found
>no problem with that violation of the law.  

    Like Deja News.  Are you going to sue them too?

>You may remember it lead to an attack upon my website for a few trivial
>matters that were "reported" but nothing ever came of the reports.  It was a
>nice diversion away from the copyright violations of the director and the
>contributors to Nizkor.  

    Huh?  You can present such a linkage in court? 

    So, start the suit!  What is taking you so long, chicken?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 14:52:03 PDT 1996
Article: 33218 of alt.skinheads
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: 29 Jul 1996 06:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199606433755@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4rfdaf$io3@tribune.concentric.net> <4sklen$49e@hermes.oanet.com> <31ef37f4.2891746@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
> 
>>Where is your evidence that Mr. McVay is libelling you ? It is not libel
>>to quote you.
> 
>Maintaining my material out of context on Nizkor such that it appears
>different from the way it does in context is libel.  

    I doubt that the form he maintains things in could be construed as
    libel.  But go ahead and sue if you want.  Just stop whining.

>Any referenence he maintains by anyone else that refers to me as a nazi or an
>antisemite is libel.  

    Antisemite?  No, that is demonstratably true.  Nazi?  That might make
    for an interesting case.  Lucky for Ken, if you sue in the US, is that
    you are probably a public figure on the internet (after all, you have
    your own newsgroup) and a much wider latitude is afforded Ken in his
    dealings with public figures.

    I doubt there is case law yet for the internet on this matter.  I would
    think NY Times v. Sullivan would be an important case for determining
    internet case law here.  (Yale, would you agree?)  Giwer, guess who
    won?

>	Not to mention that anything of mine posted without my permission is a
>violation of my automatic copyright on what I create.  

    This, also, will make for interesting trial debate.  So when does the
    suit get filed?  Or are you still whining?

>I demanded it be taken down so long ago that even McVay refused, along with
>his fellow collaborators in copyright violation and a host of others who found
>no problem with that violation of the law.  

    Like Deja News.  Are you going to sue them too?

>You may remember it lead to an attack upon my website for a few trivial
>matters that were "reported" but nothing ever came of the reports.  It was a
>nice diversion away from the copyright violations of the director and the
>contributors to Nizkor.  

    Huh?  You can present such a linkage in court? 

    So, start the suit!  What is taking you so long, chicken?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon Jul 29 21:05:30 PDT 1996
Article: 54231 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!netnews.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: 29 Jul 1996 06:25 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199606250989@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4tadum$4bja@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4thidu$k1k@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4thidu$k1k@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) writes...
>Danny Mittleman (dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu) wrote:
>: In article <4tadum$4bja@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
> 
>:: Next he'll be calling me fatbroad.
> 
>: When Michael Keaton posted here, Giwer called him a batfraud.
> 
>.. . . and when someone plugged his modem in at a fraternity house, he
>called it fratbaud. . .

    And when Giwer went to Saudi Arabia and offered the king a sausage, he
    said, "brat, Faud?"

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 30 07:34:22 PDT 1996
Article: 54290 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!news.imnet.ad.jp!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Blacklist of Internet Service Providers?
Date: 29 Jul 1996 22:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199622100909@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4tg80g$546@clarknet.clark.net> <023302Z29071996@anon.penet.fi> 
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In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article <023302Z29071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:
> 
>> akira@clark.net writes:
>> 
>> > Has there ever been anyone who's compiled a list of rouge ISP's?
> 
>Rouge?

    Just another Nazi trying to identify Communists sites.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 30 07:34:23 PDT 1996
Article: 54293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural
Subject: Re: Ken McVay and Rich Graves support censorship
Followup-To: can.politics,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural
Date: 29 Jul 1996 22:14 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199622141053@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4s5b5c$1s5@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4sun4t$rln@news1.panix.com> <093312Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4tigvm$6hi@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <4tigvm$6hi@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes...
>The honourable Vyshinsky (an572010@anon.penet.fi) wrote:
> 
> piece of tripe I believe was written by Miltie:>
> 
>:    It means pop music without Barry Manilow 
> 
>I've asked this before and never gotten an answer:  how could anyone
>possible be whiter than Barry Manilow?

    Pat Boone.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 30 07:34:24 PDT 1996
Article: 54335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: mn.politics,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.c
Subject: Re: You Can _Never_ Have Too Much Diversity (ADV)
Date: 29 Jul 1996 22:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199622165791@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4tbdhh$soa@news.ecn.bgu.edu> <4tdlm4$a8h@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4tidou$mf9@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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>solveit@ix.netcom.com(Harry Petersen ) wrote:
> 
>[deletia]
>>            Please note that immigration is not bad, per se. It's only
>>problematic when different people of different races are brought into a
>>country or when people of the same race refuse to assimilate over a
>>period of time....

    Those darn Chinese.  Three generations of immigration into the US...
    and they're still Chinese!  Heaven forbid one of THEM try to marry into
    my family...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 30 07:34:25 PDT 1996
Article: 54337 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: 29 Jul 1996 22:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199622190560@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>chrisl@minn.net (Chris Lyman) wrote:
> 
>>[--Holocaust revisionist crap deleted--]
>>
>>Leuchter's assertions have been thoroughly and repeatedly refuted
>>and debunked.  I have friends who lost family members to the
>>Holocaust.
> 
>	I'd be interested in seeing the details and documentation of your
>friends loses. Did you see any? Did you ask for any? If you don't come
>back with the answers, will it mean you didn't ask or didn't get any
>of the details and documentation?

    Tommy, did you demand to se your great grandparent's death
    certificates, or did you trust your parents when they told you how and
    when these people died?  If you didn't ask, why not?  How do you KNOW
    your parents were telling you the truth?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 30 08:16:49 PDT 1996
Article: 54342 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tell it to Teuffel Piet, l'il tommy
Date: 29 Jul 1996 22:07 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199622070968@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31fb7628.820469@news.pacificnet.net> <4tjju4$rhv@news.enter.net>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4tjju4$rhv@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...

    Tommy sputtered:
>>  	YFE has cited one example of an idiot who cowtows. One example
>>  out of hundreds of millions.
> 
>	Unlike l'il tommy who has yet to produce a single one of the 
>"hundreds of millions" (apparently "hundreds of millions" is l'il tommy's way of 
>saying: "me.")  Where are they l'il tommy.  So far they haven't come forward.  
>Rev. Jay Rock, director of the office of Interfaith Studies of the National 
>Council of Churches agreed with Rev. Sherman.  Another is Cardinal O'Connor, 
>archbishop of New York.  He authored and issued a statement condemning the 
>Southern Baptist proclamation.  He felt so strongly about it that he asked the 
>Lutheran bishop of New York and the Episcopal bishop opf New York to join 
>him.  They did.
> 
>	But I really must thank you. l'il tommy.  As a result of your post I gave 
>Rev. Sherman a call.  A rather nice fellow and, as it turned out, very concerned 
>about raving lunatics such as you.  He expressed an interest in Nizkor and, 
>after checking it out on the Internet, called me back.  He would like to 
>contribute to it.
> 
>	That's why Nizkor believes in free speech. l'il tommy.  Every time you 
>open your bigoted, lying mouth you make converts.  For the other side.

    An excellent example.  I hope that Nizkor makes use of this example to
    explain to others why it is important to not stifle internet
    communication by the anti-semites and bigots of the world.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 30 08:21:10 PDT 1996
Article: 37635 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!news.imnet.ad.jp!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Blacklist of Internet Service Providers?
Date: 29 Jul 1996 22:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199622100909@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4tg80g$546@clarknet.clark.net> <023302Z29071996@anon.penet.fi> 
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In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article <023302Z29071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:
> 
>> akira@clark.net writes:
>> 
>> > Has there ever been anyone who's compiled a list of rouge ISP's?
> 
>Rouge?

    Just another Nazi trying to identify Communists sites.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 30 09:17:29 PDT 1996
Article: 92043 of alt.censorship
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!news.imnet.ad.jp!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Blacklist of Internet Service Providers?
Date: 29 Jul 1996 22:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUL199622100909@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4tg80g$546@clarknet.clark.net> <023302Z29071996@anon.penet.fi> 
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In article , schwartz@infinet.com writes...
>In article <023302Z29071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:
> 
>> akira@clark.net writes:
>> 
>> > Has there ever been anyone who's compiled a list of rouge ISP's?
> 
>Rouge?

    Just another Nazi trying to identify Communists sites.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jul 30 20:36:20 PDT 1996
Article: 54475 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: 23 Jul 1996 09:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23JUL199609294995@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31f27f60.11773942@news.pacificnet.net> <31f4e059.2755202@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <31f4e059.2755202@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	For anyone wanting to check out any dialogue that took place
>under previous posts of this article should check out "Deja News" a
>website which supplies a righteous history of newsgroups.
>	This site is much more straight foward than Nizkor's which is
>'all over the place'. In order to check out Nizkor dossiers it could
>be necessary to down load up to 800 kilobytes and scan it to review
>any particular previous post they may have on any of their
>adversaries. 
>	For Deja News, just enter "BEHOLD THE LIE".

    Yes, please do.  Every time Tommy posts BEHOLD THE LIE it is torn to
    shreads.  Please check DejaNews for the details.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



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